RV-Archive.digest.vol-bg
March 24, 1996 - April 05, 1996
RV>RV>He plumbed in a Jerry Nelson, 4lb, O2 bottle under the baggage floor an
RV>>>>>>stuff cut<<<<<<<<<<<<
RV>I've been lurking forever, but recognized a name so I thought I'd jump
RV>in. Dean Hall's hangar is about 100 yards from mine. I'm sure I'll see
RV>him at the airport this weekend. He's also a retired MD so I'll get the
RV>details on his system and his opinion on flavors of oxygen and post it
RV>all on Monday.
I talked to Dean Hall yesterday. He showed me his oxygen system. As
previously stated, he uses a Nelson bottle. He says it is aluminum with
a Kevlar (he thinks) wrap. He's got it mounted to the left side of the
baggage compartment behind the back seat in his RV-4. He cut a hole in
the floor, fabricated a pan for the bottle to be strapped into and then
made a rounded cover on a hinge to keep things looking nice. We didn't
measure it, but I'd guess it protrudes into the baggage area about 2
inches. As with everything on his RV, it's very well done.
He has high pressure line running from the bottle to a T-connector to a
flow indicator for passenger and for the pilot. He showed me the flow
indicator in the Avery (or was it Aircraft Spruce???) catalog on page
381, #2250 for $14.70 each. He has an Oxymizer Cannuala onnected to
each of the flow indicators. These cannulas are on page 382 and sell
for $24.50 ea.
With regard to 'flavors' of oxygen, he said he fills it so very little
that he's always just used the FBO's fillup service as a matter of
convenience. A hangar discussion insued (sp?) when I asked this
question and the consensus was that medical oxygen would work just
fine. He said (as someone else said in a recent post) that the oxygen
is inherently pretty dry and that they rehydrate?? when patients have
to breath it for a long time.
Dean is a pretty incredible individual. He's on the national board for
EAA. He's been on the cover of Sport Aviation with his Skybolt several
times and has appeared with his Skybolt in national EAA promotional
material.
He said he'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have. I
generally see him every weekend so I'd be happy to pass any questions
along.
Rod Woodard
Loveland, Colorado
RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com
"On the list for the -8"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Problem (fwd) |
Several people here recommended replacing the pump with the one from Vans.
However, the one from Vans will only produce about 5 PSI max. It is for
engines with a Carb. If this person has an IO-360, he will need a higher
pressure pump as the injector will not work at all below about 7 PSI.
I do agree that he needs to move the bump down lower and preferably closser
to the tanks. It is better to 'push' the fuel than to 'suck' it as this
will prevent any vaporization problems as well.
He needs to test the elect pump by itself to see how much pressure it puts
out. Have him check the spec's on how much PSI he needs to keep that injected
engine running. If the mechanical pump dies he has to depend on the elect pump.
There was a good discussion of boost pumps in the current issue of IAC Sport
Aerobatics.
Herman
>
> >A local builder who does not own a computer asked me to post this message
> >and ask for some help. Here goes.
> >
> >He's just finished a 4 with an IO-360 and his problem lies in keeping his
> >electric fuel pump primed. It seems that if he gets any air in his fuel
> >system the electric pump will not reprime itself and he must rely solely on
> >the engine's mechanical pump (which is weak and currently being replaced I
> >think). Here's more specifics:
> >
> >1. Electric pump is a Piper aircraft pump part #33959-3 and is located on
> >the firewall about 11" above the top of the fuel tanks and is drawing fuel
> >through about 6' of fuel line.
> >
> >2. Gascolator is located on firewall about 8" above the top of the fuel tanks.
> >
> >3. Electric pump pressurizes system to 22 psi. but he doesn't know how
> >much pressure (suction) it developes on the intake side.
> >
> >4. He does not have an electric pump mounted in the cabin.
> >
> >5. He has been purging the fuel line up to the electric pump of air by
> >pressurizing his fuel tanks carefully.
> >
> >Chet Razer, leveling fuselage jig and waiting for fuselage kit.
> >
> >Chet Razer
> >crazer(at)egyptian.net
> >
>
> This is really scary. I don't know that much about electric fuel pumps but
> I'd be very leery of flying in this aircraft. My recommendation is that he
> replace the Piper fuel pump with whatever pump Van recommends for the
> IO-360 and install it inside the cabin in the normal location. I've got a
> -6 but I seem to recall that on the -4's that the electric fuel pump is
> located within 2 or 3 inches of the fuselage bottom.
>
> He pressurizes the fuel tank to get fuel to the pump???? How is he going to
> do that at 3,000 feet?
>
> When he is in a climb attitude how far from the gas is the electric pump?
>
> Please tell your friend to ground this aircraft until he corrects this
> problem.
>
> John Ammeter
> ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
> Seattle WA, USA
> RV-6 N16JA
> Flying 5 years
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-punch Fuselage Skins |
> I was curious if there are any rumours concerning pre-punched fuselage skins.
> I have heard about the pre-drilled firewall. I am planning to buy my fuselage
> in the next 6 months.
>
Shelby,
I called Van's a couple of weeks ago and asked about this. Tom says
there are no plans to pre-punch the fuse skins. I asked if there was
ANY reason I should wait a few months to order my kit and his
response was that there would be not major enhancements in the next
year or so. I'm ordering mine as soon as I get the first wing
closed.
B F Gibbons
RV-6 (first wing)
N23ST - Reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bakerv4(at)cdsnet.net (James Baker) |
What would be the smallest engine that has been successfully flown in an RV??
I have a friend with a Subaru engine that would be putting out about 125 hp.
He does not feel comfortable turning up this engine to 5500 rpm to get the
150- 160 hp.
thanks,
jim
Breaking ground on the shop
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Problem (fwd) |
Chet, I agree with the others, it's a little on the dangerous side for him
to fly it this way. If I'm not mistaken, it may be illeagel, but to each
his own.
J C Whitney has an elec fuel pump, discribed to sound as if it is about the
same as Vans sells. The largest capacity is 'up to 45 gph', a 'self
priming feature of up to 18 inchs' and the max press pump is listed as 7-9
psi. with a weight of 18 oz. If he has an absolute min. of 7 psi, it's
border line. J C cat says price is 32.95 for the above described pump.
The basic problem sounds as if it's what others have said, the pump doesn't
have the self priming ability of the height that he has it installed. Just
maybe he could install it just in front of the wing spar in the cockpit and
it may then have the self prime lift ability.
Just some possibilities.
John D
>> >Chet Razer
>> >crazer(at)egyptian.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net> |
| Subject: | Looking To Buy A Finished RV-6/A or RV-4 |
I am currently looking to purchase an RV-6, RV-6A, or RV-4 completed with
the hours flown off and licensed by the F.A.A. I would prefer an airplane
with a hundred hours or more unless this is not the first airplane the
builder has built. After completing 10 hours of dual RV-6 time with Mike
Seager, I want to buy one now ! I am not picky on the model because I am
planning to complete my RV-6A in a few years. My upper limit is $70,000 so
if you are looking to sell your RV, please send me an Email of its
specifications (SMOH, TT, Radios, etc) ASAP. Thanks ... Scott Johnson /
Chicago rvgasj(at)mcs.com 708-980-3772 or 847-985-3772
________________________________________________________________________________
Well after many months of prep work my wife and I finally rivited the top
skin on my left wing( right will be done in the next week or two). Here is a
short cap on how it went.
1) We used the Avery Back rivet tool and a 2x2x2 inch square steel cube for
the backing plate. My wife held the cube. The Avery tool as mentioned in
the rv-list is a WICKED LITTLE BEAST to use and as supplied does not have
enough bend in it. I heated it with my torch and put about 2 degrees more
bend and squelched in and oil bath to re-temper. Worked much better.
2) The Avery tool, no matter how hard I tried, would bend over the rivets on
the tip rib. This may be caused by the fact that there is no skin after the
rib and when my wife would push, the rib and rivet would tip towards the web
of the rib. These rivets were bucked the old fashioned way.
3) The Avery tool does not have enough bend (even my rebent version) to rivit
the forword rivets along the main spar. These were done the old fashioned
way with my wife running the bucking bar. With the .040 thickness of the
spar material this worked real well with no sign of a dimple in the skin
after rivetting.
4) At the root end of the rear spar, the rivet holes were to close to the
flange strips to allow for dimpling. Since the wing walk doubler is in this
area also I had planned on countersinking this portion of the spar. Well I
forgot until we had riveted the entire top skin in place and as you can
imagine I then had a problem. The Fix... I drilled and countersunk one
corner of the bucking cube (now a female dimple die). I cut off the end of an
old muffler hammer tool and drilled it 0.187 to accept the male dimple die.
With this in my rivet gun and the cube as the female die I was able to
dimple the spar (with the skin and doubler in place) so that the skin would
lay flat and be riveted. I would not suggest this to anyone but if in a
pinch, this worked.
5) The 4 root ribs are left unriveted as per John Hovan's supplimental
instructions. We bucked 452 (+/- 10) rivets in the top skin, not including
the root ribs.
6) The wing looks real good without those clothes grabbing clecoes sticking
out all over. If the tank were in place it would look absolutly gorgeous
(sp).
How many of the rv-listers are going to Oskosh this year? My wife and I plan
on going and it would be real neat to place a face with the writings of the
list..
BTW, I have read lots about spousal support on the list and I can say that my
wife is the BIGGEST fan of my project. She is always willing to help, and
does a good job too!. She oo's and Ahh's at the parts I have to fabricate and
always tells me how good a job I am doing. I am very lucky to have the
support of this kind from my better half.
Gary Zilik
RV-6A s/n 22993
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
>What would be the smallest engine that has been successfully flown in an RV??
>
>I have a friend with a Subaru engine that would be putting out about 125 hp.
>
>He does not feel comfortable turning up this engine to 5500 rpm to get the
>150- 160 hp.
>
>thanks,
>
>jim
>
>Breaking ground on the shop
>RV-4
>
Would he be comfortable running the engine at 5500 rpm during takeoff and
climb??
Cruise at altitude (7500 feet) is only 75% power. The rpm would be 5500 but
power output would be less than full power. I have an O-320 E2A 150 HP in
my RV-6. To be honest, I wouldn't recommend any less than that.
Your friend wouldn't be happy with only 125 HP; you get tired of being the
'tail end charlie' after a while.
IMHO, the optimum combination is a Lycoming 160 HP engine with a Hartzell CS
prop.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Make sure you can vent the area to the outside with a good airflow or you
will smell up your house. I used three box fans stacked one on top of the
other in a frame that fits in a doorway. I turn the fans on and create a
vacuum that sucks all of the fumes out of my basement. I open a window in
the house to provide a supply of fresh air. I run the fans for awhile after
I paint til it dries and doesn't smell. As to size needed, The largest piece
to prime is the spar. Make sure that you can get around your work piece when
you paint.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit.
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
This is the largest majordomo tyoe mailing that I get.
The list has grown to a couple of hundred, SO
Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
"rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
fine thing that "rv-list" had become!
Thanks,
Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the
very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives."
-B. Breathed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marian K. Rendall or Scott Sawby" <mkr(at)netw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Top Wing Skins |
I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one to have trouble with that Avery back
riveting tool. I also used a torch to put more of a bend in mine. That
seemed to help, but didn't solve the problem. I had to drill out a lot of
off-center rivets and replaced them by conventional riveting. I had pretty
much decided not to use that thing anymore, unless someone has some tips.
Scott Sawby
RV 6A fusilage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry ) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Problem (fwd) |
>Chet, I agree with the others, it's a little on the dangerous side for him
>to fly it this way. If I'm not mistaken, it may be illeagel, but to each
>his own.
>J C Whitney has an elec fuel pump, discribed to sound as if it is about the
>same as Vans sells. The largest capacity is 'up to 45 gph', a 'self
>priming feature of up to 18 inchs' and the max press pump is listed as 7-9
>psi. with a weight of 18 oz. If he has an absolute min. of 7 psi, it's
>border line. J C cat says price is 32.95 for the above described pump.
>The basic problem sounds as if it's what others have said, the pump doesn't
>have the self priming ability of the height that he has it installed. Just
>maybe he could install it just in front of the wing spar in the cockpit and
>it may then have the self prime lift ability.
>Just some possibilities.
>John D
>
>>> >Chet Razer
>>> >crazer(at)egyptian.net
>>
>
>
I have an rv6a with an IO-320 the mechanical pump puts out 27 psi.
I bought a mallory electric pump from a auto performance shop.
that puts out about 20 psi. Seven psi is not enough pressure for
cruise rpm, you should have at least 15-20 psi at the servo.
Airflow Performance is a very good source for fuel injection
information I highly recomend them.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffery Lorimor <x1lorimo(at)exnet.iastate.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking To Buy A Finished RV-6/A or RV-4 |
Call Keith Campbell @ Boone, Ia. He is willing to sell his RV-6. It's a
beauty with 178 hours on it...his second one. It won workmanship awards @
Oshkosh & Illinois. It's VFR with mode C, GPS.
>I am currently looking to purchase an RV-6, RV-6A, or RV-4 completed with
>the hours flown off and licensed by the F.A.A. I would prefer an airplane
>with a hundred hours or more unless this is not the first airplane the
>builder has built. After completing 10 hours of dual RV-6 time with Mike
>Seager, I want to buy one now ! I am not picky on the model because I am
>planning to complete my RV-6A in a few years. My upper limit is $70,000 so
>if you are looking to sell your RV, please send me an Email of its
>specifications (SMOH, TT, Radios, etc) ASAP. Thanks ... Scott Johnson /
>Chicago rvgasj(at)mcs.com 708-980-3772 or 847-985-3772
>
>
>
--***********************
Jeffery Lorimor
Extension Animal Waste Management Specialist
203 Davidson Hall, ISU
Ames, IA 50011
E-mail x1lorimo(at)exnet.iastate.edu
check our server at www.ae.iastate.edu
Phone 515/294-9806
FAX 515/294-9973
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly people
that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV. If you have a
newsgroup I think it would be visited by a lot of non RVer's and I think this
would dilute the good stuff we get here, if there is disagreements here it
kinda like a family thing, not for all of the public to see.
I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and it is
not a pretty sight alot of the time.
If you want the "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" in addition to the fine list that
Matt has here then go for it.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Riveting |
Talk about a bad weekend...
After working about 16 hours preping the ailerons, I started riveting
the right aileron last night. I started at one end of the aileron,
on the top, along the spar. I totally ruined the skin on the first
rivet. I was watching to make sure I had the bucking bar on the
rivet and that I wasn't touching the inside of the skin anywhere and
I let the gun get a little sideways. It looks like I melted the skin.
I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
doing this? This skin is so thin it seems like *any* error will show
big time. (Yes George, I watched the tape twice and heard you say
to be very careful riveting this skin.) So today I get to order a new
skin. I plan to continue to rivet on this skin to practice, but any
advice or technique from the list would be most appreciated.
B F Gibbons
RV-6 (first wing)
N23ST - Reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignitions |
>
>Has anyone looked at the LASAR system. That's the one Cessna is putting in
>the new planes. Electronic system with conventional magneto operation
>during complete (ie. no battery either) electrical failure. What a deal!
>
>
>
They are also about double the price.....
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
THE RV3 PROTO USED AN O-290 GPU OF ABOUT 125 HP I BELEIVE. I ASKED VAN ABOUT
USING ONE OF THESES GPU CONVERSIONS IN AN RV4 SEVERAL YEARS AGO. YES, THE
AIRPLANE WILL FLY, WITH THE ASSOCIATED PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES FROM THE SMALLER
ENGINE. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU WON'T KEEP UP WITH THE 150HP+ PEOPLE BUT SHOULD
HAVE A NICE AIRPLANE WITH REASONABLE PERFORMANCE COMPARED TO SPAM CANS WE GET
USED TO.
What would be the smallest engine that has been successfully flown in an RV??
I have a friend with a Subaru engine that would be putting out about 125 hp.
He does not feel comfortable turning up this engine to 5500 rpm to get the
150- 160 hp.
thanks,
jim
Breaking ground on the shop
RV-4
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: RV-List: engine size
From: cdsnet.net!bakerv4(at)matronics.com (James Baker)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:07:15 -0800
.jf.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07868 for | Date: | Mar 25, 1996 |
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Top Wing Skins |
I tried the avery back rivet tool and also an offset cupped set,
but the one set I found to work the best was an offset mushroom
set, about 6" long with about a 10 degree bend in the middle. Got
it surplus for $5. After bending over a couple of rivets with it
I found that I had to over-compensate for the bend in the angle
since even if the set was flat on the rivet the angle that the
gun was pointing would make it bend over. Once I figured this out
and over-angled the set on the rivet by a few degrees, it was
easy to get really nice rivets. I found that even if all I could
get on the rivet was just the edge of the set I could still get
good results. I helped two other builders back-rivet their wings
this way after doing mine.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
>>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
>> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly people
>that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV. If you have a
>newsgroup I think it would be visited by a lot of non RVer's and I think this
>would dilute the good stuff we get here, if there is disagreements here it
>kinda like a family thing, not for all of the public to see.
>I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and it is
>not a pretty sight alot of the time.
>
>If you want the "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" in addition to the fine list that
>Matt has here then go for it.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
>
I agree with Jerry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
>Talk about a bad weekend...
>
>
>I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
>doing this? This skin is so thin it seems like *any* error will show
>big time.
>B F Gibbons
>RV-6 (first wing)
>N23ST - Reserved
>
>
Let me get this straight, you had the air TURNED DOWN to 70 psi on 3/32
rivets? My god boy, what are you building? In all seriousness, I use 30
psi on 3/32 and 60-70 psi on 1/8 rivets. When rivetting the thin stuff
0.016 with 3/32 rivets, I use about 25 psi. This might be unique to the gun
that I am using, but the shop heads come out perfectly and I get
complimented on my rivets. With the above mentioned pressures, my ailerons
came out just fine.
Hope this helps.
-Scott N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>--------------
>This is the largest majordomo tyoe mailing that I get.
>
>The list has grown to a couple of hundred, SO
>
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
>back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
>
>It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
>PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
>
>Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
>and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
>fine thing that "rv-list" had become!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!)
>--------------
This is from the RV-List FAQ 'Question and Answer' section:
"...
Q: Why isn't there an RV-list internet newsgroup?
A: Initially there were few enough rv-ers that an e-mail list made more sense.
Once the list grew to a large enough size, several people suggested creating
an internet news group. After much discussion, the upshot was that almost
everyone preferred the immediacy and universality of an e-mail distribution
list.
..."
BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
I would vote to have it in California! :-)
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
Before I get flooded with e-mails about the air pressure....
When I ordered the new skin from Van's this morning Ken asked what
happened. When I told him the air pressure I was using there was a
stunned silence. I have no idea where I got the idea that I needed
to use 70-80 psi for riveting, but you can bet I'll turn it down.
Thanks.
BFG
bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
>>> B F Gibbons 03/24/96 09:43pm >>>
Talk about a bad weekend...
I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
doing this?
70 psi is too high for me. I use about 30 to 35 when doing 3/32
rivets. I also use the swivel flush set from Avery. Some love it
others don't but I ruin somethin evertime I pickup the standard flush
set.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)direct.ca (David W.S. King) |
>>What would be the smallest engine that has been successfully flown in an RV??
>>
>>I have a friend with a Subaru engine that would be putting out about 125 hp.
>>
>>He does not feel comfortable turning up this engine to 5500 rpm to get the
>>150- 160 hp.
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jim
>>
>>Breaking ground on the shop
>>RV-4
>>
There are a few other versions of the Subaru that puts out 230hp smogged out
in the car and think they rate at 260 in aircraft trim. I think thats the SVX
engine a six cylinder. There is also the EA-81 which they rate up to 135 with
a reduction drive. The Ea-82 is the over head cam version of that and I think
goes up to 180hp. I think the wieghts in running trim are sim to the 150hp.
There was an article in Kitplanes a few months ago that listed one of the
vendors that listed all these weights, and horse powers etc.
I was considering one of the bigger Sube's myself and curious if anyone has
flown behind one. I have seen articles on the smaller sizes and they are quite
good but the bigger versions seem to be a new thing. I know there have been a
few 4's around with converted Mazda engines so this isnt too new a thing.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | vern(at)ldd.net (Vern Lemasters) |
| Subject: | Bristol TN Builders? |
I was just wandering if anyone in the Bristol area would like or mind a
visit from a fellow rv builder. I will be in Bristol for the races this
weekend (March 30-31). If anyone is available they could e-mail me privately
to keep from clogging up the list.
Thanks
Vern Lemasters
vern(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass Tips |
Pop 'em. It's lighter and easyer. Trust me, when you are done with your
aircraft you will never want to see another plate-nut again. Don't get that
anti-pop rivet attitude...they are necessary and useful.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
You wrote:
>
>
>>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
>> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly
people
>that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV. If you
have a
>newsgroup I think it would be visited by a lot of non RVer's and I
think this
>would dilute the good stuff we get here, if there is disagreements
here it
>kinda like a family thing, not for all of the public to see.
>I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and
it is
>not a pretty sight alot of the time.
>
>If you want the "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" in addition to the fine
list that
>Matt has here then go for it.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
>
I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
"rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
contributors are immature children. I like what we have here. It's
almost become a "security blanket" for me. I've received help from far
aways as South Africa and Austrailia on minor problems I've
encountered. Since we are all builders or potential builders, there is
little of the mindless chatter/flaming I see on other newsgroups.
Ed Cole RV6A 24430
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
| Subject: | Riveting Pressure |
Hi all,
The subject of rivet gun pressure is something that's of current interest to
me since I'm at the stage of destroying aluminum practicing for my RV-8
empennage when it is available. A couple of questions for you:
1. When you talk about pressure, are you referring to the pressure before the
trigger is pulled? I can see a drop when the gun is running.
2. I have an in line swivel regulator, which is really not a regulator but a
flow restrictor. Are the pressure discussions referring to pressure at the
gun itself?
3. What about changing pressure when you change sets, for example from back
riveting to flush riveting?
I have a 3x gun which I'm running at 90 psi tank pressure which drops at least
10 pounds when the gun is running, and I'm using the swivel regulator for
control. This discussion has me anxious to get home tonight and play with
pressure settings, but I thought I'd bring it up. This may be a rather
elementary topic, but I thought I'd see what came out of it.
Steve Johnson
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | backrivet wing skins?? |
I'm curious as to why so many people seem to want to back rivet their
wing skins???? Do you really get a better finish than using the Avery
swivel set and low pressure( sorry B.F. )?
John ( in search of the perfect rivet... )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Sender: owner-rv-list |
>>
>>On the rv-list, you wrote:
>>
>> > 30 psi on 3/32 and 60-70 psi on 1/8 rivets. When rivetting the thin stuff
>> > 0.016 with 3/32 rivets, I use about 25 psi. This might be unique to
the gun
>> > that I am using, but the shop heads come out perfectly and I get
>> > complimented on my rivets. With the above mentioned pressures, my ailerons
>> > came out just fine.
>>
>>I'm interested: do you have a 2x or 3x gun? Do you think the
>>pressures would be the same for both?
>>
>>-Brian
>>
I use a 3X gun. Never used a 2X, so I can't comment on them.
-Scott N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Ed Cole wrote:
> I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
> contributors are immature children. I like what we have here.
I was sitting for several minutes pondering how best to express my
sentiments about rec.aviation.homebuilt, but Ed does so perfectly.
I found USENET very useful in the early 90s when everyone using the
technology understood it and respected it and its prevailing
etiquette. Unfortunately, today's cyber-fad has brought on an ever
increasing collection of dolts and dummies that have rendered most
newsgroups utterly useless, IMHO.
Sure, the daily rv-list volume is high; RVs are damn fine airplanes
that have a devoted, and increasingly computer-connected following.
At least the commentary on the list is always intelligent. I fear
making this list a newsgroup will not only increase the volume, but
will uniformly degrade its quality.
People, let's not ruin the GREAT forum we have here!
-Brian
brian(at)lanart.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
Tedd -- good to hear from and good to hear that things are coming
along with respect to your shop. On the subject of your paint booth,
I personally would not recommend that you set up in your house. My
own experience has been that the odour is quite strong, and seems to
take two-to-three days to dissispate (sp?) after a priming session. I
really wounldn't want the smell in my house.
On the subject of size, have made a set of two frames that fold out
from the wall of the garage. One frame folds up, and covers a floor
area of 4' by 12'. The second frame folds down, and covers a floor
area of 2' by 10'. It is covered with chicken wire, and forms a nice
shelf to spray on, without any blowback. With the frames folded out,
I then suspend a light canvas curtain on the upper, larger frame, and
I've got a nice spray tent. I cover the roof with clear plastic, so
it is reasonably well lit. The logic that I used in the dimensions is
that I believe the spar is the largest single part to prime, so I made
it big enough for that.
I can demonstrate the whole rig when you swing by to see the project.
Hope that this helps...regards...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
PS. I did get your note on my home email account, and I'll blast a
reply back tonight. However, you are MORE than welcome to visit my
project next time you're in town.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis S. Smidler" <102776.1474(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Top Wing Skins |
I had great luck with the back riviting tool from Avery on my wing top skins.
My 15 year old daughter was on the outside with the bucking bar and I had the
gun on the inside. Together we did an exellent job with no problems. The only
thing I might suggest is that you support the tool with one hand near the rivet.
Frank Smidler
Ready to back rivet the fuselage skins.
>I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one to have trouble with that Avery back
>riveting tool. I also used a torch to put more of a bend in mine. That
>seemed to help, but didn't solve the problem. I had to drill out a lot of
>off-center rivets and replaced them by conventional riveting. I had pretty
>much decided not to use that thing anymore, unless someone has some tips.
>
>Scott Sawby
>RV 6A fusilage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
A
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
>back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
>
>It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
>PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
>
>Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
>and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
>fine thing that "rv-list" had become!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
Mickey: I like this format much better than rec.aviation.homebuilts on the
net. The Internet newsgroups are a lot more cumbersome to get around (I'm
using Netscape)and you there seems to be a lot of flaming and egos on RAH.
I'm using Eudora and have made mailboxes and folders for various areas of
interest, so it seems easy to catalog and save good ideas and comments. I'd
vote to stay like we are as long as Matt is willing. (Thanks Matt.) The
list seems pretty fast and is easy to use. Also, it takes a little effort
to get on the list, much more so than joining a newsgroup which might help
keep some of the "loonies" out of our group. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Riveting Ailerons |
BF -- I may be a little out of synch here, given that I'm only on the
HS, but I thought that I would throw in my $0.02. I currently use a
2X gun, and run my compressor at 90 PSI, and then I adjust the
restrictor on the gun so it'll hit about as hard as it can. Using
these settings, we set an an 1/8" rivet using a standard universal
rivet sat in about a count of two. The long, offset rivet sets,
because of their higher mass, take a little longer (maybe a three to
four count). From what I understand, the fewer times you hit the
rivet, the better, to avoid work hardening. I'm assuming that the
ailerons come together pretty much the same way as the elevators and
rudder, which I intend to back rivet, with the Avery riveting plate.
The only two "real" flush rivets that I've done so far are on the
front spar of the HS, and I did them using this method, and they came
out perfectly. Frankly, I find the back rivet tool EASIER to use.
From your description it sounds like you are using a conventional set
and bucking bar, which sounds tricky at best on such thin material.
I don't know if the above helps at all, but anyway...
Regards...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning (!) Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>
>Matt Dralle
>RV-List Admin.
Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Top Wing Skins |
> I helped two other builders back-rivet their wings
> this way after doing mine.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
Randall,
You and your back riveting set are invited to NW Arkansas.
BFG
bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Ted,
You asked how big a paint booth is desirable.
I don't have a lot of room in my shop, so I made a booth out of sheets of
plastic suspended from the ceiling. At the bottom of the sheets I taped ten
foot sections of 1 1/2" pvc pipe and rigged them to roll up like blinds by
pulling on a string. Exhaust is provided by a fan in the ceiling. Works good,
but 10 by 10 is a little small sometimes.
Pat Allender
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
I occasionally read through the homebuilt newsgroup and even see some
userid's from this list on the postings there. Mostly a bunch of
Zoom bashing and plastic talk. I'd much rather be a part of this
list than a news group (just one guy's opinion).
BFG
bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
> I found USENET very useful in the early 90s when everyone using
> the technology understood it and respected it and its prevailing
> etiquette. Unfortunately, today's cyber-fad has brought on an
> ever increasing collection of dolts and dummies that have rendered
> most newsgroups utterly useless, IMHO.
This has been precisely my experience. My newsreading time has really shrunk,
to the point where I'm only reading one or two very obscure groups. (Through
my account on Teleport, not this one). It's like what happens when your
favorite neighborhood restaurant gets "Discovered". It's also the way
American culture deals with anything it finds threatening - it surrounds it
like an amoeba, and digests and destroys it and sucks all the meaning out of
it. e.g. When Valley Girls are wearing studded wristbands, it takes some of
the shock value out of being a punk rocker, eh?
I think my .sig from Teleport says it all. It starts with:
---
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog... but they can tell right
off the bat if you're an idiot! -- Me
---
One on-topic question.
Are you also allowed to do engine repair on the certified engine in your
homebuilt under the repairman's certificate, or only work on the airframe?
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis S. Smidler" <102776.1474(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting Pressure |
I have a regulator on tank and set the pressure there at 35psi for 3/32 rivits.
I don't change it for the type of rivet set and I don't worry about the drop in
pressure during the time I'm riveting. For 1/8" rivets I set the pressure at
55psi. Any higher than this and you'll put a hole through the skin. Basicly you
want a good set after a count of from 3 to 5. Good luck.
Frank Smidler
RV-6 fuselage in jig, riveting on skins.
>1. When you talk about pressure, are you referring to the pressure before the
>trigger is pulled? I can see a drop when the gun is running.
>
>2. I have an in line swivel regulator, which is really not a regulator but a
>flow restrictor. Are the pressure discussions referring to pressure at the
>gun itself?
>
>3. What about changing pressure when you change sets, for example from back
>riveting to flush riveting?
>
>I have a 3x gun which I'm running at 90 psi tank pressure which drops at least
>10 pounds when the gun is running, and I'm using the swivel regulator for
>control. This discussion has me anxious to get home tonight and play with
>pressure settings, but I thought I'd bring it up. This may be a rather
>elementary topic, but I thought I'd see what came out of it.
>
>Steve Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv (longish) |
Hi Mickey,
You beat me to it, i've been meaning to post this question for a while.
This has turned out to be a longish message, I apologise in advance
to the 2-300 people who have absolutely no interest in this subject
or my message, but that is exactly why I have sent it, why
it has turned out so long, and why we need a change.
Hopefully I've added some constructive ideas by the end.
> Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
I find volume of rv-list e-mail messages daily somewhat excessive.
And have set up a separate e-mail address to handle the rv-list
which I have aimed at an automatic message archiving & kill script
to reduce the time I spend looking at the list messages, how many
others have taken measures to cut rv-list time, or are they just
unsubscribing?, are we loosing experienced builders from the list?.
As the list has grown I have seen a few types of messages which
are starting to bug me.
- Many very similar replys to simple questions.
(OK, I'll admit i've even fuelled the fire myself here)
- Questions to which the answer is contained in either the
construction manual, plans, some readily available text.
(AC43,Bengellis,Pazmany..) or with a quick phone call to
your building buddy.
- Questions of a very local nature / private replys copied to the list.
- Very general questions that apply to many aircraft types, not just
rv's that would perhaps be better asked on r.a.h
- Attached binaries(drawings) in platform/application dependent formats
I've considered the following as possible solutions, I've seen the
replys to your message which quote the RV faq. And believe that
this point of view may have become somewhat dated as the list
has grown.
A newsgroup either moderated or unmoderated r.a.h.rv
perhaps an unmoderated newsgroup would allow for an
rv-list which is more self moderating.
Encourage people when replying to postings on the list consider replying to
the individual rather than to the list unless your reply covers new
ground.
Split the rv-list into two lists an unmoderated & a moderated
list.
there could be additional splits in *distribution* of the moderated
list by registering as beginner,intermediate,advanced.
The moderator would classify each message,
beginners get all messages (all those primer, which rivet squeezer/
compressor/band saw is best etc..)
Intermediate level would have basic questions removed
(primer, etc..), but still get say discussions on pre-built vs
pre-drilled spar building, & how to set the larger rivets in the
wing spar.
(By setting some (strict??) rules we could automate the whole process
and have the posters set the message distribution level themselves.)
Any subscriber can register at any level! It's simply a user
selectable distribution filter.
Improve the use-ability of the list archives, We could set up an
e-mail "RV-question server", to which mail messages could be sent
processed automatically (search by keyword(s) of RV-list/newsgroup
archives),
The information database used by the question server could be
both the RV maillist & newsgroup archives.
This could be used by a list/newsgroup moderator to make their
job easier.
If someone out there has a unix machine this could run on i'd
happily set something up to test the idea.
OK, the dos world has the much discussed "search engine", unix users
have
grep 'some keywords' my-rv-list-mail-archive
But we still repeatedly get posts asking questions on well discussed
subjects.
It seems that flicking of an e-mail message is quicker & easier for most
people than searching the archives themselves.
The Database would also be available via ftp. [ok, if you insist WWW also.]
This would be a powerful tool alongside an archive of all those drawings
that get posted. [ using platform & application independant formats
of course, I've got a very good MIME mail reader but!! If only I had a
Microsoft OS, autocad ,MACpaint,; HPGL,postscript,gif,tiff,jpeg etc are)
I think a moderated mail list, an unmoderated newsgroup/list, and the
"question server" would offer maximum flexibility for everyone.
The goals being;
the moderated list would offer maximum signal to noise, ultimately vans
would participate in this list (not nesessarily as moderator).
the question server would provide fast turn around for previously
covered subjects, hopefully cutting out a lot of dead bandwidth.
The unmoderated group/list, [continuation of the current system].
There's no denying that the list in its current form is very useful
for new builders getting started on their projects and for more experienced
builders seeking advice from a wider audience for one of the trickier
problems encountered.
I appreciate & agree with Jerry Springer's we've got an RV_family kinda
thing going here but...
Posts requesting rides to this-or-that flyin at some-small-country-USA-town
are not always relavent to an international RV-building audience!.
> If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
> back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
>
> It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
> PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
>
Yes, using a threaded newsreader would be a real plus
> Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
> and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
> fine thing the RV-list has become
>
> Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
What you're asking the dreaded r.a.h.rv question when you're only
2% finished, boy it really is time this went ahead :)
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
>>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
>>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
>>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>RV-List Admin.
>
>
>Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
>
Yah, but Puget Sound has the "Blue Skies of Seattle"
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
>>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
>> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly people
>that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV. If you have a
>newsgroup I think it would be visited by a lot of non RVer's and I think this
>would dilute the good stuff we get here, if there is disagreements here it
>kinda like a family thing, not for all of the public to see.
>I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and it is
>not a pretty sight alot of the time.
>
>If you want the "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" in addition to the fine list that
>Matt has here then go for it.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
>
I want to second what Jerry says. The RAH has some good stuff but there are
too many people with an axe to grind. It's not nearly as 'civilized' as our
RV-List. We seem to do a good job of policing the List. When someone gets
out of line he/she is gently chided (most of the time) and no feelings are
hurt.
Also, I would be afraid of an open usenet group getting spammed constantly
as some of the groups are now.
My $.02 worth.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net> |
I left this out of an earlier posting so I though I'd add it for
clarity. I've only used a 2X gun purchased from cleavland aircraft
tools, It's a Taylor I think. It takes about 45 psi to set a #3
rivet and 95 psi to set a #4 rivet. I would suspect a #3 gun takes
less pressure bucause it's a heavier gun. I like my 2X because it's
smaller and a little lighter.
DISADVANTAGE: When my wings were in the jig and I had to set #4
universal rivets with the gun pointed UP, you know, those nose rib
rivets that are hard riveted instead of pop riveted. I had some
trouble forming shop heads before the rivet "work hardened" even with
my air turned all the way up to 100 psi. I finally got all the rivets
adequately set.
BOTTOM LINE: My 2X is fine but if I was buying again I think the 3X
might be the best all round.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
The secret to riveting the thin stuff (ailerons) is a very low
pressure. I used about 40 psi with a 2X gun and the avery rubber
guarded flush set and the right bucking bar. If you noticed, the area
the bar fits into is not perfectly square and finding the right bar is
one of the secrets to this riveting job
chet, still waiting on fuselage kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)direct.ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
>Ed Cole wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
> > "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
> > contributors are immature children. I like what we have here.
>
>I was sitting for several minutes pondering how best to express my
>sentiments about rec.aviation.homebuilt, but Ed does so perfectly.
>
>I found USENET very useful in the early 90s when everyone using the
>technology understood it and respected it and its prevailing
>etiquette. Unfortunately, today's cyber-fad has brought on an ever
>increasing collection of dolts and dummies that have rendered most
>newsgroups utterly useless, IMHO.
>
>Sure, the daily rv-list volume is high; RVs are damn fine airplanes
>that have a devoted, and increasingly computer-connected following.
>At least the commentary on the list is always intelligent. I fear
>making this list a newsgroup will not only increase the volume, but
>will uniformly degrade its quality.
>
>People, let's not ruin the GREAT forum we have here!
>
>-Brian
>
I have to second this rather loudly! Bang on Brian!
This is one of the few lists where every msg gets a look
and a lot are saved for the info. The rec.hombuilt newsgroup
is sometimes a real waste of bandwidth.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Riveting Pressure |
REGARDING Riveting Pressure
Steve you may consider two methods to control pressure (at the tool).
(1) Attach a very small pressure gage right at the inlet port of the tool.
When you pull the trigger you can see actual pressure (which includes all of
the line pressure drop). You set the gun operating pressure by pulling the
trigger and then tweaking the regulator (wherever it is ) to get the "running"
pressure you want. This works well if the initial high pressure surge is O.K.
for what your are doing or if anticipate it and let the pressure bleed down to
your running pressure before use.
(2) On my Spray gun I have a miniature regulator (with gage) attached to some
very limp hose about 6 ft away from the gun. The line is about 25 ft from the
compressor. I find no noticeable pressure drop and the limp hose (because of
reduced line pressure from the regulator to the gun) allows excellent
flexibility when spraying.
Another hint: I have quick disconnects on the end of EVERYTHING pneumatic
(hoses and tools) By putting male/female, quick disconnects on a gage you
will find that you can pop it into the line whenever you need it. Then set
for the running pressure you want and then remove it if it is cumbersome or an
obstruction. I have not experienced serious pressure drop through my
disconnects at the typical CFM's I use.
-Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harold Sutphin <hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
> >
> >>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> >> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
> >
> >I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly people
> >that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV. If you have
a
> >newsgroup I think it would be visited by a lot of non RVer's and I think this
> >would dilute the good stuff we get here, if there is disagreements here it
> >kinda like a family thing, not for all of the public to see.
> >I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and it is
> >not a pretty sight alot of the time.
> >
> >If you want the "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" in addition to the fine list that
> >Matt has here then go for it.
> >
> >Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
> >
>
> I agree with Jerry.
> Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
I agree with Jerry. I know I will ALWAYS get Matt's rv-list email, but
I may not always get to a newsgroup before the article expires.
Harold
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Mickey, I must be the list dummy, because I don't know what you're talking
about. I know that the Netscape has something on it that is 'newsgroup',
but what it is and how to use it is presently beyond my knowledge. If there
is enough interest and you do set this up, would you be so kind as to
outline, in detail, instructions so that an internet dummy can use it?
I'm going to go over and try it now, if the internet goes off the air, you
will know that I screwed it up.
Needless to say, I don't feel qualified to express an opinion either way.
John D
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Allan W. Mojzisik" <prober(at)iwaynet.net> |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv (longish) |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1A93.E088D880
Steve,=20
I've gotta ask..........Are you a government employee?????? This sounds =
like the way the FAA got started. There is something good so we gotta =
regulate it. People aren't smart enough to know what they want to read!=20
Nothing =
personal.........Al
----------
From: Stephen Bell[SMTP:discus.lincoln.ac.nz!steve(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 1996 4:28 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Time for r.a.h.rv (longish)
Hi Mickey,
You beat me to it, i've been meaning to post this question for a =
while.
This has turned out to be a longish message, I apologise in advance
to the 2-300 people who have absolutely no interest in this subject
or my message, but that is exactly why I have sent it, why
it has turned out so long, and why we need a change.
Hopefully I've added some constructive ideas by the end.
> Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
I find volume of rv-list e-mail messages daily somewhat excessive.
And have set up a separate e-mail address to handle the rv-list
which I have aimed at an automatic message archiving & kill script
to reduce the time I spend looking at the list messages, how many
others have taken measures to cut rv-list time, or are they just
unsubscribing?, are we loosing experienced builders from the list?.=20
As the list has grown I have seen a few types of messages which
are starting to bug me.
- Many very similar replys to simple questions.
(OK, I'll admit i've even fuelled the fire myself here)
- Questions to which the answer is contained in either the
construction manual, plans, some readily available text.
(AC43,Bengellis,Pazmany..) or with a quick phone call to
your building buddy.
- Questions of a very local nature / private replys copied to the =
list.
- Very general questions that apply to many aircraft types, not just
rv's that would perhaps be better asked on r.a.h
- Attached binaries(drawings) in platform/application dependent =
formats
I've considered the following as possible solutions, I've seen the
replys to your message which quote the RV faq. And believe that
this point of view may have become somewhat dated as the list
has grown.
=20
A newsgroup either moderated or unmoderated r.a.h.rv
perhaps an unmoderated newsgroup would allow for an
rv-list which is more self moderating.
Encourage people when replying to postings on the list consider =
replying to
the individual rather than to the list unless your reply covers new
ground.
Split the rv-list into two lists an unmoderated & a moderated
list.
there could be additional splits in *distribution* of the moderated
list by registering as beginner,intermediate,advanced.
The moderator would classify each message,
beginners get all messages (all those primer, which rivet squeezer/
compressor/band saw is best etc..)
Intermediate level would have basic questions removed
(primer, etc..), but still get say discussions on pre-built vs
pre-drilled spar building, & how to set the larger rivets in the
wing spar.
=20
(By setting some (strict??) rules we could automate the whole process
and have the posters set the message distribution level themselves.)
Any subscriber can register at any level! It's simply a user
selectable distribution filter.
=20
Improve the use-ability of the list archives, We could set up an
e-mail "RV-question server", to which mail messages could be sent
processed automatically (search by keyword(s) of RV-list/newsgroup
archives),
The information database used by the question server could be
both the RV maillist & newsgroup archives.
This could be used by a list/newsgroup moderator to make their
job easier.
If someone out there has a unix machine this could run on i'd
happily set something up to test the idea.
OK, the dos world has the much discussed "search engine", unix users
have
grep 'some keywords' my-rv-list-mail-archive
But we still repeatedly get posts asking questions on well discussed
subjects.
It seems that flicking of an e-mail message is quicker & easier for =
most
people than searching the archives themselves.=20
The Database would also be available via ftp. [ok, if you insist WWW =
also.]
This would be a powerful tool alongside an archive of all those =
drawings
that get posted. [ using platform & application independant formats
of course, I've got a very good MIME mail reader but!! If only I had a
Microsoft OS, autocad ,MACpaint,; HPGL,postscript,gif,tiff,jpeg etc =
are)
=20
I think a moderated mail list, an unmoderated newsgroup/list, and the
"question server" would offer maximum flexibility for everyone.
The goals being;
the moderated list would offer maximum signal to noise, ultimately =
vans
would participate in this list (not nesessarily as moderator).
the question server would provide fast turn around for previously
covered subjects, hopefully cutting out a lot of dead bandwidth.
The unmoderated group/list, [continuation of the current system].
There's no denying that the list in its current form is very useful
for new builders getting started on their projects and for more =
experienced
builders seeking advice from a wider audience for one of the trickier
problems encountered.
I appreciate & agree with Jerry Springer's we've got an RV_family =
kinda
thing going here but...
Posts requesting rides to this-or-that flyin at =
some-small-country-USA-town
are not always relavent to an international RV-building audience!.
> If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report=20
> back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
>=20
> It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
> PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
>=20
Yes, using a threaded newsreader would be a real plus
> Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
> and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
> fine thing the RV-list has become
>=20
> Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
What you're asking the dreaded r.a.h.rv question when you're only
2% finished, boy it really is time this went ahead :)
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
I generally find 40 psi is enough for 3/32 rivets. A hard hitting gun
increases the pull you need to keep things straight. The aileron is an
awkward cuss to rivet and my own is not completely blemish free..... I would
use a second person to buck if I was doing it again. Back rivet all you can
in these thin skins, almost always a perfect rivet.
Are you sure you have to throw it? If it's on the bottom service they'll
only see it if they are too nosy for their own good.
Commiserations,
Leo
6A Riveting fuse skins
>Talk about a bad weekend...
>
>After working about 16 hours preping the ailerons, I started riveting
>the right aileron last night. I started at one end of the aileron,
>on the top, along the spar. I totally ruined the skin on the first
>rivet. I was watching to make sure I had the bucking bar on the
>rivet and that I wasn't touching the inside of the skin anywhere and
>I let the gun get a little sideways. It looks like I melted the skin.
>
>I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
>doing this? This skin is so thin it seems like *any* error will show
>big time. (Yes George, I watched the tape twice and heard you say
>to be very careful riveting this skin.) So today I get to order a new
>skin. I plan to continue to rivet on this skin to practice, but any
>advice or technique from the list would be most appreciated.
>B F Gibbons
>RV-6 (first wing)
>N23ST - Reserved
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frankv(at)pec.co.nz |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Las
>>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of c
>>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
Only if you're America-centric! Looking at the world as a flattened
sphere, New Zealand is more central than most other places. :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv (longish) |
Guys,
I would like to whole-heartedly agree with Steve Bell's comments.
When I returned from a 12 day vacation, I think there were about 800
messages, with much less than 1/2 having to do with actually building a RV.
An example even as this is getting discussed - one comment from Matt got 2
"chatter" responses that just fill everyone's mailbox, and don't even
follow the title of the e-mail:
*** start example ***
>
>>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
>>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
>>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>RV-List Admin.
>
>
>Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
>
Yah, but Puget Sound has the "Blue Skies of Seattle"
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years"
*** end example ***
The volume is starting to exceed my capacity for intake, the noise
level is getting higher, and I need to spend my time building, not sorting
e-mail. It's getting harder to find the nuggets .....
... Gil Alexander ....
PS. an added suggestion on top of Steve Bell's:
Make a RV-list "reply" go to the sender, NOT to the entire list.
PPS. Not a personal comment on either Bob S. or John A. -- they have both
"done their time" building and helped us all! I think it's just the
present 'normal practise' of the list.
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
>Hi Mickey,
> You beat me to it, i've been meaning to post this question for a while.
>
> This has turned out to be a longish message, I apologise in advance
> to the 2-300 people who have absolutely no interest in this subject
> or my message, but that is exactly why I have sent it, why
> it has turned out so long, and why we need a change.
>
> Hopefully I've added some constructive ideas by the end.
>
>> Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
>> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
> I find volume of rv-list e-mail messages daily somewhat excessive.
> And have set up a separate e-mail address to handle the rv-list
> which I have aimed at an automatic message archiving & kill script
> to reduce the time I spend looking at the list messages, how many
> others have taken measures to cut rv-list time, or are they just
> unsubscribing?, are we loosing experienced builders from the list?.
>
> As the list has grown I have seen a few types of messages which
> are starting to bug me.
> - Many very similar replys to simple questions.
> (OK, I'll admit i've even fuelled the fire myself here)
> - Questions to which the answer is contained in either the
> construction manual, plans, some readily available text.
> (AC43,Bengellis,Pazmany..) or with a quick phone call to
> your building buddy.
> - Questions of a very local nature / private replys copied to the list.
> - Very general questions that apply to many aircraft types, not just
> rv's that would perhaps be better asked on r.a.h
> - Attached binaries(drawings) in platform/application dependent formats
*** steve's really good comments cut out here ***
>
>Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Top Wing Skins |
Frank,
Did you use the back-rivet set as it came out of the box, or did you
increase the bend? Also, which bucking bar did you use?
Stuart Fraley
RV-6 Tail
>I had great luck with the back riviting tool from Avery on my wing top skins.
>My 15 year old daughter was on the outside with the bucking bar and I had the
>gun on the inside. Together we did an exellent job with no problems. The only
>thing I might suggest is that you support the tool with one hand near the
rivet.
>
>Frank Smidler
>Ready to back rivet the fuselage skins.
>
>
>>I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one to have trouble with that Avery back
>>riveting tool. I also used a torch to put more of a bend in mine. That
>>seemed to help, but didn't solve the problem. I had to drill out a lot of
>>off-center rivets and replaced them by conventional riveting. I had pretty
>>much decided not to use that thing anymore, unless someone has some tips.
>>
>>Scott Sawby
>>RV 6A fusilage
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | luism(at)ibm.net (Luis Madsen) |
| Subject: | Exhaust on IO360 in RV6 |
I have done what I was not supposed to do, I am trying to install a IO360=20
C1C in my RV6.
The engine is from a Arrow and the first problem was that it had a rear=20
injection, it interferes with the enginemount.
Solution was to move the injector to the front end of the sump.
Problem it now that the injector is now where the crossover exhaust should=
be.
I have talked with Larry Wetterman and he told me that nobody makes exhausts=
=20
to this engine. He told me that normally people change to a smaller sump=20
with down facing injector, like a O360 carburator, and with new intake=20
tubes. I find it a expencive solution.
The question is:
Does there exist a exhaust to this engine A/C combination ?
Does the exhaust in the Spruce catalog that fit the engine fit a RV6 ?
Have you tried to make your own exhaust, then how ? and parts from where ?
What did Van=B4s do on the RV6 it looks like a similar cowling and engine ?
Luis Madsen, Denmark
Luism(at)ibm.net
RV6 ready for engine.
luism(at)ibm.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
John,
It might take me a couple of hours to put together instructions!
If you want to give me a call tomorrow at the office, I'll be happy
to give you the 15 minute orientation. (Afternoon is best, # below)
Don't worry, if you can build an airplane, you can figure this out.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the
very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives."
-B. Breathed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
I, for one, would hate to loose out on the archive option this list
provides.
Finn
You wrote:
>
>This is the largest majordomo tyoe mailing that I get.
>
>The list has grown to a couple of hundred, SO
>
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
>
>If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
>back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
>
>It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
>PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
>
>Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
>and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
>fine thing that "rv-list" had become!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
>mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
>KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
>"Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the
> very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives."
> -B. Breathed
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: backrivet wing skins?? |
>I'm curious as to why so many people seem to want to back rivet their
>wing skins???? Do you really get a better finish than using the Avery
>swivel set and low pressure( sorry B.F. )?
>
>John ( in search of the perfect rivet... )
John: Back riveting does seem to do a better job. Also, I think it is
faster and less skill is needed. In other words, anyone with a warm body
can hold the bucking bar on the factory head. I polished the rivet set
(rounded sharp corners and made the inset a little bit less.) The only
problem area was the last 3 or 4 rivets at the trailing edge of the main
ribs. I helped a friend do two wings and at that time had not changed the
angle of the set. We set one rivet at the top of the main rib where the
flange attaches to the rear spar and left the other 3 holes un-riveted. In
this way we were able to move the main rib slightly out of the way in order
to get a straighter shot at the 3 aft rivets. I bought the swivel set
after putting a "smiley" on the bottom OB leading edge and generally got
along with it OK. Lately, I've gone back to a straight flush set. I seem
to do a little better job getting a good set on the rivet. My theory is
that it has a smaller head and transmits more force to the rivet and less to
the surrounding structure. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>This is the largest majordomo tyoe mailing that I get.
>The list has grown to a couple of hundred, SO
>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
That's an interesting idea, but I don't know that it would be any faster or
easier than the way it is now. I use AOL so I don't know how other servers
handle things, but a mojordomo list and a newsgroup operate virtually the
same at my end.
If anything, I think that an RV newsgroup might end up with a lot more
unrelated traffic and more flame-posts; simialr to the rec.aviation.homebuilt
newsgroup now.
Just my .02,
Ed Bundy
>Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!)
Just curious, how do you know? :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
It only takes about 25 psi to rivet AN3 rivets. Turn your gun down and be
very careful to keep the gun perfectly square to the work piece.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>
>>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
>>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
>>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>RV-List Admin.
>
>
>Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
>
>
Australia would be much more challenging
P.S. agree with the above.....like the feeling of like souls on the
list...very little bad temper....good level of expertise....works like the
net should
Leo Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark D Hiatt" <OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com> |
>
> Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
>
EAA Chapter #569 in Lincoln, Nebraska is having a huge fly-in July 4th-6th
including the "Aluminum Overcast" (get our tailwheel checkout in a B-17!).
I know of three RV-6s that are planning to attend. Everyone is welcome,
and if there is enough interest, we can plan on some kind of RV-doin's for
one of those days.
Mark D Hiatt
OttoPilot_MSN
Aviation Forum Manager,
The Microsoft Network
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William French <wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, EDWARD COLE wrote:
> You wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
> >> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
> >
> >I like the fact that this group is dedicated to RV's and is mostly
> people
> >that are building or are interested in owning or building a RV.
SNIP
> >I've seen what goes on in the "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup and
> it is
> >not a pretty sight alot of the time.
> >
> >Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
> >
> I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
> "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
> contributors are immature children. I like what we have here. It's
> almost become a "security blanket" for me. I've received help from far
> aways as South Africa and Austrailia on minor problems I've
> encountered. Since we are all builders or potential builders, there is
> little of the mindless chatter/flaming I see on other newsgroups.
> Ed Cole RV6A 24430
>
I have to whole heartedly agree that this list is a family type affair
and doesn't need the trials and tribulations of the
rec.aviation.homebuilt list. This list is for info dissemination and not for
a soapbox for self serving purposes.
Bill French
wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca
Decathlon C-GJXT (Wannabe RV-8er)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
My understanding is that you can do the work on it, but it will drop out of
the certified catagory unless you have an a&p supervise. I made the
statement the other day when I was installing my 2 jugs that it would drop
out of the cert. cat. and the A&P there with me said no, that I was being
supervised and it would stay in. This is not a formal answer, but may help
some.
Incidentally, having just removed and replaced two cyl., let me tell you it
is an easy job compared to most cars I've rebuilt.
John D
>Are you also allowed to do engine repair on the certified engine in your
>homebuilt under the repairman's certificate, or only work on the airframe?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Taylor <gmt(at)iinet.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, B F Gibbons wrote:
> Talk about a bad weekend...
>
> After working about 16 hours preping the ailerons, I started riveting
> the right aileron last night. I started at one end of the aileron,
> on the top, along the spar. I totally ruined the skin on the first
> I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
> doing this?
Air pressure 70 lb maybe a problem. With a 2X gun I use 35 lb, 45 at
max. Try a few at this lower pressure.
Graham Taylor
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NMARSHAL(at)auto.rockwell.com |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
No. If it works, don't fix it!
Keep all the expertise in one place, don't dilute it.
Nigel Marshall
Chevreuse, France
RV-4 (# 4062) Elevators
nmarshal(at)aopari.remnet.rockwell.com
>>Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
>> "rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
Well, I might as well respond to the riveting question. I use a 3X Sioux
gun @125 psi (straight from the compressor) for all riveting. This method
has developed from trial-and-errorssss; my wife bucks and she does not have
the strength to hold a bucking bar if I pull the trigger all the way back
even at 25psi; we seem to do very well now but I can show you all the
learning spots.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sierchio(at)groucho.boi.noaa.gov |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv (longish) |
Hi Y'all,
I'm another new guy. I want to build an RV-6A but I'm still trying
to convince myself that I'm capable of it (anyone else been
here?).
I've been following the debate on the r.a.h.rv and offer my slant
on various comments.
1. - Many very similar replys to simple questions.
I don't mind. Maybe one of these replies will get the concept
through my thick skull better than the others. And I don't think
any sincere question should be deemed unworthy just because someone
thinks it's too "simple".
2. - Questions to which the answer is contained in either the
construction manual, plans, some readily available text.
(AC43,Bengellis,Pazmany..) or with a quick phone call to
your building buddy.
Sometimes I forget where I read something, or don't understand it.
Or, maybe someone has come up with a better way.
3. - Encourage people when replying to postings on the list
consider replying to the individual rather than to the list unless
your reply covers new ground.
This is valid for humorous comebacks and chatter or announcements,
but again, let's let the readers decide what's new ground. I've
eagerly awaited the answers to a lot of questions raised during the
two weeks I've been on the list, some of which I'm sure have been
asked before.
I wasted too much time on this. Please, let's not do anything too
drastic. I think I'm gonna need this list.
Mike
(Tooling up)
====================================================================
Mike Sierchio NIFC-National Weather Service
sierchio(at)groucho.boi.noaa.gov 3833 S. Development Ave., Bldg 3807
(208) 334-9824 Boise, ID 83705-5354
________________________________________________________________________________
The following ad appeared in theArizona Republic 3/24/96
"RV-6 fuselage jig, xlnt cond, wood, screwed and glued construction, $150,
leave message, 897-0027"
I have no other interest or knowledge, just a FYI.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting Ailerons |
On 25 Mar 1996 Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com wrote:
> four count). From what I understand, the fewer times you hit the
> rivet, the better, to avoid work hardening. I'm assuming that the
> ailerons come together pretty much the same way as the elevators and
> rudder, which I intend to back rivet, with the Avery riveting plate.
> The only two "real" flush rivets that I've done so far are on the
> front spar of the HS, and I did them using this method, and they came
> out perfectly. Frankly, I find the back rivet tool EASIER to use.
> From your description it sounds like you are using a conventional set
> and bucking bar, which sounds tricky at best on such thin material.
The spring loaded backrivet set is indeed a great way to rivet, but its
only real application is for doing stiffeners & flap ribs. It is probably
the easiest riveting job on the airplane.
Unfortunately, I think the fellow who mangled his aileron skin was
probably doing the skin-to-spar rivets. This is IMHO the toughest rivet
job on the airplane so far. (havn't built fuse yet) You've got thin skin,
limited access for the bucking bar (wear long sleeves or plan on
removing .010 " of skin off your forearms), you are bucking totally
blind, and due to the angle of the spar flange, its hard to get the
bucking bar perpendicular to the rivet. You can't use the backrivet set
for this; it's gun and bucking bar all the way.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KennyCobb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
I agree with Brian 100%, after all if it's not broke why fix it ?
Ken Crabtree
Bakersfield, CA
HS, RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Text item:
I VOTE FOR ANYWHERE EXCEPT OREGON. WE HAVE TO MANY PEOPLE COMING IN HERE
MESSING THINGS UP NOW. THIS USED TO BE A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE. QUALITY OF LIFE
IS GOING DOWN THE SEWER.
>
>>BTW, the List has had more than 200 members for a long time now! Last
>>count: 439!! We should have an RV-List fly-in when we hit 500! Of course,
>>I would vote to have it in California! :-)
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>RV-List Admin.
>
>
>Matt: Mid-Nebraska is much more centrally located :) Bob Skinner
>
Yah, but Puget Sound has the "Blue Skies of Seattle"
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV-List: Time for r.a.h.rv ?
From: ammeterj.seanet.com!ammeterj(at)matronics.com (John Ammeter)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:30:45 -0800
tel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17470 for | Date: | Mar 26, 1996 |
| From: | dls(at)neptune.kpt.arl.psu.edu (Dan Shades) |
| Subject: | EAA Chapter in WA |
Does anyone know where the nearest EAA chapter is to Bremerton WA?
Dan Shades RV-4
dls(at)neptune.kpt.arl.psu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arrowbat(at)aol.com |
Ed - I've got it. Let me know where you want it sent.
Mike Calhoon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Turn that thing down |
70 POUNDS to rivet .16 skins!!! OH MY GOD!!!!
Try 30 to 35 lbs. Additionally, you should be BACK RIVETING the ailerons.
Don't even try to buck 'em. Get yourself a 1/2 inch thick piece of steel (4"
x 12") and 1/2 thick fiber board. Place the steel down on your bench with a
piece of board on the left and right sides. Now you have an even surface to
rivet on. You don't need a special back rivet head for you gun, a normal
flat set will do just fine.
Haste makes waste.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Mail Kill File -- was Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Someone mentioned a mail "Kill" file as a way to
cut down on unwanted rv-list messages. I dummied up
something like this using the "mush" mail reader,
and it helps a lot. For example, any messages with
the words "RV-List" and "Primer" are history :-) In
fact, I'm putting "r.a.h.v" in there now....
I think this is a good compromise -- I prefer the
e-mail forum to a newsgroup, and filtering the mail
to knock off some of the subjects you aren't interested
in can help keep it managable. BTW my method works
on UNIX, Windows/Mac types will have to fend for
themselves....
Anyone who wants info on how I did this let me know
by private e-mail. I'd also be interested in collecting
other suggestions for how to do something like that
(my method is kind of a kludge). In the interest of
keeping traffic down, send it to me privately and I
can summarize later.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Saare(at)Eng.Sun.COM (John Saare) |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
I agree, the rv-list, if at all possible, should remain an alias. One
of the saddest spectacles on the net, from my perspective, has been
the demise of the rec.aviation.homebuilt group. Not that remaining
an alias is a guarantee of cyber-cordiality..., but it helps.
Now that the Bonanza is flying again, I hope to get back to the RV sometime
this summer. I'm looking forward to testing everyone's forbearance
with a whole spate of silly questions.
Thanks! -- John (manners count) Saare
>
> Ed Cole wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
> > "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
> > contributors are immature children. I like what we have here.
>
> I was sitting for several minutes pondering how best to express my
> sentiments about rec.aviation.homebuilt, but Ed does so perfectly.
>
Edited for brevity...
> I fear
> making this list a newsgroup will not only increase the volume, but
> will uniformly degrade its quality.
>
> People, let's not ruin the GREAT forum we have here!
>
> -Brian
>
> brian(at)lanart.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | calendar of events |
As promised (a long time ago), I have collected the dates of some of
the fly-ins that might be of interest to us RV builders spring through
summer. Here is a summary. If you know of a fly-in or airshow that
should be on the list, let me know by personal e-mail (or to the
rv-list, your choice) and I will add it to the list and post it later
on.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
CALENDAR
--------
(Note: * = tentative.)
Mar 23-24 Siletz Bay Airpt Pancake Bkfst Siletz OR eboone(at)teleport.com
Apr 6 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
Apr 12-13 Annual EAA Ch. 524 RV Forum Fredrick MD 301-831-3008
Apr 14-20 EAA Sun-N-Fun Lakeland FL
Apr 27 Twin Cities RV Bldrs Forum St. Paul MN 715-386-1239
May 4 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
May 24-26 Antique Fly-In/Airshow Watsonville CA
Jun 1 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
Jun 7-8 Merced Antique Fly-In Merced CA 209-383-4632
Jun 8 RV-Fly-in Boone IA 515-432-6181
Jun 14-15 Palmdale Airshow Palmdale CA
Jun 15 Salmon Arm BC Fly-In Salmon Arm BC
Jun 22* Annual Northwest RV Fly-In Scappoose OR 503-543-2298
Jun 16 Concord Airshow Concord CA
Jun 21 Truckee-Tahoe Airshow Truckee CA
July 4-6 EAA Ch. 569 Fly-In Lincoln, NE OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com
July 6 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
Jul 10-14 EAA NW Regional Fly-In Arlington WA
Jul 12-14 Hillsboro Airshow Hillsboro OR
Aug 3 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
Aug 1-8 EAA Oshkosh Oshkosh WI
Aug 24 Builder's Conference Aurora OR
Aug 24-25 Corvallis Air Fair Corvallis OR
Aug 30-Sep 1* Van's Homecoming N. Plains OR 503-647-5117
Sep 7 Monthly EAA 105 Pakcake Bkfst Twin Oaks, OR 503-646-8763
Sep 9-15 Reno Air Races Reno, NV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
what's an alias? I've never been to rec.aviation.homebuilt; I've always
thought it it's worth building they'd have their own news group. Doesn't
Glasiar have one?
Dan
On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, John Saare wrote:
> I agree, the rv-list, if at all possible, should remain an alias. One
> of the saddest spectacles on the net, from my perspective, has been
> the demise of the rec.aviation.homebuilt group. Not that remaining
> an alias is a guarantee of cyber-cordiality..., but it helps.
>
> Now that the Bonanza is flying again, I hope to get back to the RV sometime
> this summer. I'm looking forward to testing everyone's forbearance
> with a whole spate of silly questions.
>
> Thanks! -- John (manners count) Saare
> >
> > Ed Cole wrote:
> >
> > > I have to agree with Jerry. I have also tried to follow the
> > > "rec.aviation.homebuilt" newsgroup, and it seems like the majority of
> > > contributors are immature children. I like what we have here.
> >
> > I was sitting for several minutes pondering how best to express my
> > sentiments about rec.aviation.homebuilt, but Ed does so perfectly.
> >
> Edited for brevity...
> > I fear
> > making this list a newsgroup will not only increase the volume, but
> > will uniformly degrade its quality.
> >
> > People, let's not ruin the GREAT forum we have here!
> >
> > -Brian
> >
> > brian(at)lanart.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | New RV Website URL |
New RV Website URL 3/26/96 11:19
AM
http://www.europa.com/~skyguy
actually it's just my web pages.. but there is lots of RV pictures in there...
enjoy.
D~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Mail Kill File -- was Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>Anyone who wants info on how I did this let me know
>by private e-mail. I'd also be interested in collecting
>other suggestions for how to do something like that
>(my method is kind of a kludge). In the interest of
>keeping traffic down, send it to me privately and I
>can summarize later.
>
>
Hi Randall! I see we exchange newsletters! I am the Chapter 187 President
in Austin, TX. Am presently the fill-in newsletter editor too. At least we
are sending you one! I've never seen one of yours, are you sending one? The
address is on the NL.
Yes, Tell me how you did it!
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: calendar of events |
Thanks for the info, Randall.
But... am I the only RV builder in New England? Always seems like these
events are
sooo far away. But I guess the NZ builders aint in sympathy with me...
Brad Hamlin
RV4 tail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
You wrote:
>
>>>What would be the smallest engine that has been successfully flown
in an RV??
>>>
>>>I have a friend with a Subaru engine that would be putting out about
125 hp.
>>>
>>>He does not feel comfortable turning up this engine to 5500 rpm to
get the
>>>150- 160 hp.
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>>
>>>jim
>>>
>>>Breaking ground on the shop
>>>RV-4
>>>
>There are a few other versions of the Subaru that puts out 230hp
smogged out
>in the car and think they rate at 260 in aircraft trim. I think thats
the SVX
>engine a six cylinder. There is also the EA-81 which they rate up to
135 with
>a reduction drive. The Ea-82 is the over head cam version of that and
I think
>goes up to 180hp. I think the wieghts in running trim are sim to the
150hp.
>There was an article in Kitplanes a few months ago that listed one of
the
>vendors that listed all these weights, and horse powers etc.
>
>I was considering one of the bigger Sube's myself and curious if
anyone has
>flown behind one. I have seen articles on the smaller sizes and they
are quite
>good but the bigger versions seem to be a new thing. I know there have
been a
>few 4's around with converted Mazda engines so this isnt too new a
thing.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
Dave,
brfore you get too excited, the prices last month for the first
production run of 100 engines was quoted at $20,000 for a bolt on
firewall forward NSI Subaru setup (180HP). Not much different that a
Lycoming from Van's.
Ed Cole RV6A 24430
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
You wrote:
>
>Ed - I've got it. Let me know where you want it sent.
>Mike Calhoon
>
Thanks Mike
Send it to :
Ed Cole
10565 E. Estates DR.
Cupertino, Ca. 95014
408-257-3281
If you need a SASE or postage...let me know.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mail Kill File -- was Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Please send information on the mail-kill file. Thank you
m150(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larson, Joe" <Joseph.P.Larson(at)nmb.norwest.com> (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Alignment devices |
As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I'm using a laser as an alignment
device. It provides a *very* straight light that isn't subject to things
like drooping in the middle.
After seeing the further discussions on the issue, I asked my friend at
Daytons if one of his scanner suppliers would be interested in selling a
handful of plain lasers. He called his favorite supplier, checked out
the stock at Radio Shack, and otherwise was helpful.
Basically, the Radio Shack 300-foot pointer should work well. It sells
for $60. However, his supplier has the following:
> Ooo, timing! Lisa from M.G. called while I was finishing this. They sell
> "promotional" laser pointers for $52 each. 2-1/2 long, 1/2 diameter, and
> they take 2 N sized batteries (supplied). She said no quantity deals under
> about 50 units, but they're happy to sell them one at a time. They come
> engraved with "Melles Griot" on the side, brass case finished in black.
> Comes in a nice velvet lined case. She gave permission to put their company
> name and contact info out on the net for whoever wants to buy one.
>
> Contact:
>
> Mark Cummings
> Melles Griot
> 1-800-MG-LASER
> Visa, Mastercard accepted.
>
> They're located in the San Diego area, so you probably can avoid a bit of
> sales tax, too.
I really like using the laser -- it works better for me than the string or
wire. Of course, the laser I'm using was a gift. Anyways, if anyone has
a birthday coming up or something, this might be a convenient gift to add
to the list.
You *could* tell your wife you need it for work -- you have a bunch of
lectures to give or something like that. :-)
-Joe
--
Joe Larson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | RV-List stuff and a Request |
Matt,
... please could you re-consider making the RV-list default reply
go to the sender??? Please .....
I was hoping the discussion last night/this morning would help keep
some of the "chatter" down, but my thinking was wishful ..... :^(
The volume on the RV-list has grown exponentially, and the "junk"
level has increased to a point of diminishing returns. As you might have
guessed by now, I really do enjoy helping out other RV builders (I've
visited 12 this year since becoming an EAA Technical Counselor), and have
enjoyed the RV-list. However, as it has grown, it has deteriorated into a
"chatter line". I too have the same problems Steve Bell mentioned:
" As the list has grown I have seen a few types of messages which
are starting to bug me.
- Many very similar replys to simple questions.
(OK, I'll admit i've even fuelled the fire myself here)
- Questions to which the answer is contained in either the
construction manual, plans, some readily available text.
(AC43,Bengellis,Pazmany..) or with a quick phone call to
your building buddy.
- Questions of a very local nature / private replys copied to the list.
- Very general questions that apply to many aircraft types, not just
rv's that would perhaps be better asked on r.a.h
- Attached binaries(drawings) in platform/application dependent formats"
In particular, items 3 and 4 are getting excessive and flooding the
list.
Again, I think all of this could be reduced by a "reply to" change
in your software.
... I hope I didn't sound like I was ranting on, but I'm starting
to get concerned about wasted time (and the Network Police at work...:^)
If I go to a "at-home" Internet Provider, I know I won't be able to read
all the mail, and the nuggets will get lost in the chaff!
... Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
PS Just an example of 6 (out of 14) messages to-day that show my point:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ed - I've got it. Let me know where you want it sent.
Mike Calhoon
-----------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone know where the nearest EAA chapter is to Bremerton WA?
Dan Shades RV-4
dls(at)neptune.kpt.arl.psu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------
>Anyone who wants info on how I did this let me know
>by private e-mail. I'd also be interested in collecting
>other suggestions for how to do something like that
>(my method is kind of a kludge). In the interest of
>keeping traffic down, send it to me privately and I
>can summarize later.
>
>
Hi Randall! I see we exchange newsletters! I am the Chapter 187 President
in Austin, TX. Am presently the fill-in newsletter editor too. At least we
are sending you one! I've never seen one of yours, are you sending one? The
address is on the NL.
Yes, Tell me how you did it!
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the info, Randall.
But... am I the only RV builder in New England? Always seems like these
events are
sooo far away. But I guess the NZ builders aint in sympathy with me...
Brad Hamlin
RV4 tail
-----------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
>
>Ed - I've got it. Let me know where you want it sent.
>Mike Calhoon
>
Thanks Mike
Send it to :
Ed Cole
10565 E. Estates DR.
Cupertino, Ca. 95014
408-257-3281
If you need a SASE or postage...let me know.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Please send information on the mail-kill file. Thank you
m150(at)aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
PPS Note, I did send this privately ... :^) But you may quote any bits
you wish.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Vap <kvap(at)sky.net> |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
I am considering unsubscribing due to the volume (over 50 per day is =
waaaaay too much, I liked it a year ago when it was 10 to 15 per day). =
I would very much like to stay (it's a great help, great family, etc), =
but how much worse will it get?
Steve's points are valid:
Many messages are probably replies intended to one person, but end up on =
the list (I've asked Matt if there was a way to fix the reply-to address =
field of messages).
Some of the "I agree" responses are probably overkill (I guess this is =
one, too).
Maybe just a little more discretion before posting may help keep the =
volume down.
my $0.02 worth
-Kevin Vap
KC RVators http://www.sky.net/~kvap/kcrvator.html
kvap(at)sky.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Test Message #1 - Ignore... |
Testing new header formats...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
I have made an experimental change to the operation of the RV-List mailer.
You will now notice that when replying to a message, you will be replying
only to the *sender* of the message. If you want to include the whole
RV-List on the reply, you will have to explicitly add "rv-list(at)matronics.com"
to the "To:" or "Cc:" lines of the message. Hopefully this will cut down
the "personal" messages on the list, but not decrease to "real" discussion.
I have mixed feelings about this change, since I am well aware of the decrease
in real discussion this will caused because many people will not remember
to CC the List. I suppose that something had to be done. We'll see how
it works out.
Additionally, I have left the "From" (note the lack of a ':') line as
"rv-list-owner(at)matronics.com". This will keep all the bounce messages
(and with 439 email addresses, there are a *lot* of them!) from going
to the person who posts the message. Hopefully, most of the mail programs
out there will use the "Reply-To:" header and now the "From" header to
generate a return message...
I hope this helps...
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Hartmann <hartmann(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Riveting |
>I had the air on the gun turned down to 70 psi. Is there a secret to
>doing this? This skin is so thin it seems like *any* error will show
>big time. (Yes George, I watched the tape twice and heard you say
I guess it might make a difference what kind of rivet gun you have, but 70
psi is way too much for my gun on the small rivets. Of course, I didn't
learn that until I was about halfway done with the wings. I've found that
when I use the small rivets in .016 that 30 psi is about right - I use the
lowest pressure the gun will take and still allow a predictable featherd
start. I go up to about 40 psi for the longer -3s and short -4s in .025 or
thicker. I use 70 psi for the fairly long -4s through thick material, like
riveting on the aileron attach brackets. Try cranking your pressure way
down and see what you think.
Hope this helps.
- Mike
hartmann(at)sound.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Mickey,
I vote no. I think that the rec.aviation newsgroups have taken a giant
step backward in regards to manners and rudeness toward others since I was a
regular reader. I enjoy the discussions here, at least SKIM them all, and
save the gems. I think we'd loose a lot of that due to flame fests and
such as others discover r.a.h.rv. Even if it were moderated, I believe
that the moderator would spend more time correcting miscreants than enjoying
the group.
This list does have a nice feel to it. Someone else called it an "RV family"
or something similar. One can ask for help, beg a ride, and connect with
other RV builders, and I for one think that's worth keeping. For that, I'm
willing to live with the primer, squeezer, (insert your least favorite subject
here) rehashes, chatter messages, and 30-50 messages per day.
Steve Mayer
----- Forwarded Message -----
FROM: INTERNET:mbaker(at)gate.net, INTERNET:mbaker(at)gate.net
DATE: 3/25/96, 3:30 AM
Re: RV-List: Time for r.a.h.rv ?
This is the largest majordomo tyoe mailing that I get.
The list has grown to a couple of hundred, SO
Is it time to try to establish a newsgroup entitled:
"rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv" ?
If everyone who would use the group would send me email, I'll report
back an interest level. Then we can float the CFV if it's doable.
It might make it a little easier to keep track of all the threads
PLUS be the first newsgroup dedicated to a type of aircraft.
Again, send me you email indicated interest OR POST your opinions
and discussion. This is an IDEA - I am NOT trying to "undo" the
fine thing that "rv-list" had become!
Thanks,
Mickey Baker (RV6A 2% done!) | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the
very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives."
-B. Breathed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rolf Hankers" <ROLF(at)abraham.iff.ing.tu-bs.de> |
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 18 Mar 96 15:21
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: RVator?
Was read at 14:22, 27 Mar 96.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rolf Hankers" <ROLF(at)abraham.iff.ing.tu-bs.de> |
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 18 Mar 96 12:00
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Plans Layout
Was read at 14:21, 27 Mar 96.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
Would the list member who is a product manager at Magellan please contact me
regarding a new GPS product application idea? Apologies to the list, but I
deleted the message that was sent a couple of weeks ago.
Steve Johnson
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
612-733-1368 (work)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | rv-list newsgroup... |
I sent Mickey an E mail and it contained most of the complaints others
have with r.a.h. However, I pointed out that I would MUCH prefer a
newsgroup format. This way, all of the replies to B.F. regarding
gun pressure would be in one thread. If you're satisfied with the first
5 replies, you don't have to read the next 100(1/2g). Your inbox is not
constantly being filled with messages that you need to weed through to
get to work stuff.
The trick would be to keep it MEMBERS ONLY. Which is what it is now.
That means to join the group, you have to send Matt your REAL name and
address, etc.. You get a username/password to access the group, no
riffraff. Anyone can join, but behave like a r.a.h'er and bye bye....
Also, the level of chatter and personal messages on this list is amazingly
small. 90% of the stuff on here is directly related to building and flying
RVs. This has got to be unique in cyberland.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: calendar of events |
>But... am I the only RV builder in New England? Always seems like these
>events are sooo far away.
Not true. I live in Northern New Jersey. There are 5 flying RV's (including
mine) at my field with one expected to fly in 2 months.
Every weekend is an RV fly-in at N85 (Alexandria Field, Pittstown, NJ)!
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
Greetings:
Sounds like a good idea and I hope people do remember to "cc" the net on
ideas. I know you have put a lot of time and work into it and I want to say
I appreciate it! I have learned a lot of things from other people, saved
material, time, saved things for the future projects and this coupled with
Frank Justice's manual, Orndorff tapes, local help here in Austin especially
form Mark Fredrick have helped the confidence level that yes, one can build
these machines! I'm "cc'ng" the group to let those know to make sure you "cc"
when it is applicable so we can glean your knowledge.
Again Matt, thanks!!
Howard Kidwell
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
>This list does have a nice feel to it. Someone else called it an "RV
family"
>or something similar. One can ask for help, beg a ride, and connect with
>other RV builders, and I for one think that's worth keeping
Definitely agree! Replies to such topics unless of broad interest to list
members should be personal.
I for one have, by oversight, posted on to the list when I intended to make a
personal reply. I think that Matt Dralle's change to the header block will
reduce this kind of problem since the poster must make an overt action to
address the list. And, I think that a "little" self-policing action from
time to time by the members is a reality check of what the members want.
There is a "nice feel" to this list.
I agree with Gil Alexander that many of the questions asked to the list are
very naive, and show very little effort on the poster's part to find the
answer in a more probable place. I have mentioned here previously about the
relationship between "Experimental Aircraft" and the "Experimental Aircraft
Association". From my experience, most EAA members with simplistic questions
ask EAA friends, talk to the kit manufacturer, read the kit manufacturer's
literature, plans, construction manuals, consult with CFI's, flight schools,
and mechanics, and read Flight Training magazine. It would be interesting to
know how many list members are/are not EAA members.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com> |
| Subject: | Jim Ayer's LOM RV-3 featured in Kitplanes |
For those who have asked or have been wondering, Jim Ayers LOM
powered RV-3 is shown in May's Kitplanes. Check it out.
Very cool, Jim. Looks sort of like a stubby Chipmunk. ;)
tw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
I have a suggestion.
I am involved several other email lists such as this one. Mostly
dealing with computer system support. In those lists the charter
insists that recipients reply directly to the sender. However, since
many others on the list may also need to know the answer to some
time critical question, the sender often summarizes the responses to
the list. Many recipients will ask the sender to respond if the
question is one that applies to them as well. Responders sometimes
feel that their answer may apply globally and will simply reply to
the list instead of the sender.
Would that work?
tw
Begin forwarded message:
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:46:41 -0800
Subject: RV-List: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ!
I have made an experimental change to the operation of the RV-List
mailer.
You will now notice that when replying to a message, you will be replying
only to the *sender* of the message. If you want to include the whole
RV-List on the reply, you will have to explicitly add
"rv-list(at)matronics.com"
to the "To:" or "Cc:" lines of the message. Hopefully this will
cut down
the "personal" messages on the list, but not decrease to "real"
discussion.
I have mixed feelings about this change, since I am well aware of
the decrease
in real discussion this will caused because many people will not remember
to CC the List. I suppose that something had to be done. We'll see how
it works out.
Additionally, I have left the "From" (note the lack of a ':') line as
"rv-list-owner(at)matronics.com". This will keep all the bounce messages
(and with 439 email addresses, there are a *lot* of them!) from going
to the person who posts the message. Hopefully, most of the mail
programs
out there will use the "Reply-To:" header and now the "From" header to
generate a return message...
I hope this helps...
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
Matt-
I am one subscriber who likes it just the way it is. So what if I get 50
messages, do you know how long it takes me to hit the "D" key fifty times
if I don't want to read the messages? (I timed it < 30sec).
I think you do a super job. When you get a chance could you tell me (and
the rest of the list if you like)
what matronics is;
what hardware you do use;
how you got into this;
how much of your time is needed to maintain this list;
TIA
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z fuselage to the hanger this weekend!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
| Subject: | Ventura, CA area RVers |
I will be visiting in Ojai the week of March 31 to April 8 and would welcome
the chance to visit projects under construction or bum a ride in a RV.
Thanks,
Steve Johnson
Waiting for the RV-8
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Alignment devices |
Harbor Freight sells one for $35.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KennyCobb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Bakersfield Fly-In |
Bakersfield EAA Chapter 71 Fly-In & BBQ will be June 8th at Bakersfield Muni
Air Park.
Ken Crabtree
Bakersfield, CA
RV-6A HS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pmbs(at)probe.att.com (Paul M Bilodeau +1 +1 908 957 6611) |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - my opinion |
Matt-
Text from Dan Boudro:
> I am one subscriber who likes it just the way it is. So what if I get 50
> messages, do you know how long it takes me to hit the "D" key fifty times
> if I don't want to read the messages? (I timed it < 30sec).
> I think you do a super job. ..........
.
.
.
> TIA
> Dan Boudro
> RV-4 N9167Z fuselage to the hanger this weekend!
I concur with Dan.....since I am new to the group and still learning.
I vote to keep the group as is!!
I also would like to keep the distribution to all the group to make sure
"tidbits" are not lost, and keep the contributors responsible for sending
their individual messages to those they wish to communicate with rather
than changing the default as you have done.
Perhaps a bit more thought put into the subject line would help
those on the group weed out email messages they did not want to read.
Put the subject of the message in the subject line, and if it's of
interest then read the message, otherwise, hit the delete key.
Personally I save them all, except for those that are obvious from
the "Subject" line, ex. Michigan Fly-In Dates, and then read the
remaining at my leisure, again removing discussions in which I have
no interest, less interesting topics, and retaining the good stuff,
which I may even print out and file according to subject.
Thanks again Matt....
Paul Bilodeau
pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com
908-957-6611
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
>--------------
>Matt-
>I am one subscriber who likes it just the way it is. So what if I get 50
>messages, do you know how long it takes me to hit the "D" key fifty times
>if I don't want to read the messages? (I timed it < 30sec).
>
I can delete them all with 1 command!
>
>I think you do a super job. When you get a chance could you tell me (and
>the rest of the list if you like)
>what matronics is;
>
Matronics is a company I started a number of years ago to develop and
manufacture homebuilt aircraft accessories. This currently includes a speed
reduction and switch multiplexier for electric trim servos called the
"Governor", and a very affordable, fuel management computer system called the
"FuelScan DX and LT". You can find more information on these products in the
RV-List FAQ and at the Matronics Web Page (http://www.matronics.com).
>
>what hardware you do use;
>
The RV-List is run on a SUN Sparc 1+ running SUN OS 4.1.3. Connection to
the net is currently through a UUCP connection, although plans are in
progress to upgrade to a full time Internet connection.
>
>how you got into this;
>
Well, RVs of course! My father is a pilot and I have flown all of my life.
Building and flying airplanes is as natural to me as driving a car. I've
always been interested in computers and electronics and 'computers for
airplanes' is just too much fun!
>
>how much of your time is needed to maintain this list;
>
A lot! I spend probably about 15-30 minutes a day making sure the List is
running okay, and dealing with bounce messages and email addresses that
don't exist anymore. This time *doesn't* include the time I spend actually
reading RV-List mail! 30-50 messages a day is *nothing* compared to the
volumes I sort through everyday! ;-)
>TIA
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 N9167Z fuselage to the hanger this weekend!
>--------------
Happy RV'n...
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Francis Malczynski <103516.536(at)compuserve.com> |
I was just about to close up my right elevaor when it occurred to me that there
was no call to put some RTV adhesive at the juncture of the stiffeners and the
trailing edge of the elevator. Should this be done? I see nothing in the plans
that say to do it, but if it would help to prevent skin cracks (the reason Vans
gives in his instructions on the rudder) then I would do it.
Has anybody else done it? Is it recommended?
Thanks
Fran Malczynski - RV6(A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EAA Chapter in WA |
There is a chapter in Olympia - Chapter 684 The Pres is Greg Carras at
360-459-7600. There are others in Silverdale, Kent, Seattle, Tacoma/Puyallup,
Aberdeen. Those are the closet to you. If you want names/phone nos for the
others they are in the EAA Chapter list book or let me know and I'll pass the
info along via e-mail.
Mike Talley EAA 818 (Bayview Airport)
RV-6 -Horiz Stab out of the jig, skinning the vert stab
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Toolbox as floor stiffener |
>> > Instead I intend creating a triangular section toolbox
>> >rivetted to the stiffeners and bolted to the spar.
>> >
>> >Peter Bennett
>> >Sydney Australia
>> >RV6 skinning fuselage
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> This sounds like a good idea. Could you share some specifics? What is a
>> "triangular section"? Between which floor stiffeners? Will it tie into the
>> firewalll? Will the top of the box be a hinged lid flush with the floor?
>> When you say "bolted to the spar" are you going to use the existing holes
>> throuh the spar and use longer bolts?
>>
>> Much thanks>
>Ross,
>The idea came from Bill Benedict who said others had done it,
>although I got no details from him. I plan to make triangular "ribs" which
>have a flange bolted top and bottom to the spar with longer bolts,
>with the lower side of the web rivetted to the vertical web of the floor
>stiffener to a distance about 7 inches forward of the spar, and with
>a flange on the sloping side (hypotenuse) which is about parallel to your
lower leg
>when you are seated. The toolbox therefore sits under your
>knees/calves in an otherwise dead space. the floor stiffeners are
>cantilevered forward which really stiffens up the floor. Access will
>be by hinged panel on the sloping face. The "ribs" will have the
>biggest possible lightening holes and the stored tools wrapped in
>foam.
>BTW, Gil Alexander pointed out there are brackets holding the
>stiffeners to the spar. Anyone else miss them????
>
>Peter Bennett
>Sydney Australia
>RV6 skinning fuselage
>
Peter,
You wrote:
>BTW, Gil Alexander pointed out there are brackets holding the
>stiffeners to the spar. Anyone else miss them????
The bracket which holds the floor stiffener to the spar is F699 shown on
drawing 46 Section F-F'.
Thanks for the description. I called Bill today to get some more details,
and he couldn't remember any. I did mention to him that I was interested
in installing this toolbox to stiffen up the belly pan to try to change the
resonence frequency. He said he didn't think this would do much as the
vibration is mainly "under your feet" and stiffening back near the spar may
not do much.
I am building a 6A. The gear leg takes up the space under the outside knee
which precludes putting a box between the outside longeron and first
stiffener. That leaves the options of
1) building two, 7 inch wide toolboxes between the middle stifeners and the
one to the ouside, or 2) building one 8 inch wide toolbox between the middel
two stiffeners or
3) building one 22 inch wide toolbox spanning all four floor stiffeners
If you are building a 6, you would also have the options associated with
using the 7 inch space between the longeron and first floor stiffener.
Which option are you leaning towards?
You mentioned "The "ribs" will have the biggest possible lightening holes
and the stored tools wrapped in foam." Does this refer to the inside ribs
(if you will have any) or the outside ribs which form the outside of the box?
Do you plan on running a 3/4" or 1" angle width wise spanning between the
longerons or between the stiffeners at the "nose" of the toolbox?
Thanks for your thoughts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
Sorry, I didn't ask you in the first place so I don't know why your're
cluttering up the list with this crap.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, David Allsop wrote:
> In answer to your quesiton I will only say READ THE FAQ
>
> >what matronics is;
> >what hardware you do use;
> >how you got into this;
> >how much of your time is needed to maintain this list;
> >TIA
>
> Yes, you may have lots of time on your hands to sit and repeatedly delete
> the crap from the gold, but many of us have the 'Network Police' wondering
> why we get so much e-mail.
>
> David Allsop
> 2 'Plastic airplanes' Now it's time for a metal one.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric) |
| Subject: | Time for r.a.h.rv ? |
Hi RV Folks,
All the talk of cutting down on replies on the list really concerns me.
Yeah, I shiver when I log in on monday morning and see 95 messages waiting
for me as well. But of those 95 or so there are only about 10 different
headers thanks mostly to our buddy Matt. I imagine most of us can prescreen
the headers and delete them if they are not of interest, I know my keyboard
comes with its very own delete key; didn't even cost extra. It takes about
10 minutes to go through all the repetitive chaff and still find that
"nugget".
I personally find it very helpful to see various different
opinions/techniques on one particular subject, and guaranteed what does not
interest you will benefit some of us guys that are not as far along on the
kit. Face it, as long as Mr. Van is pumping out the kits you are always
going to get strands on primer , trim tabs, and jigs (think how George &
Becki feel). Fact is those repetitive messages have benefited me greatly.
So where do you draw the line? How many hours of searching and research do
you have to log before you can access the vast amount of world wide
knowledge we have at our fingertips? What if we don't have any RV friends?
What if we submit our posts to Stephen and Kevin so they can deem them as
"worthy". As long as this list is going to be open to anyone with an
interest, it's going to be like this, you can't control human nature. The
only fix is tolerance. At least we haven't been besieged by the know-it-all
flame meisters that are on every other list. Come on RVers, relax. It can't
really be that big of a deal.
Just my dull repetitive trim tab building opinion.
Eric Henson
******************** Reply Separator *********************************
>I am considering unsubscribing due to the volume (over 50 per day is
waaaaay
>too much, I liked it a year ago when it was 10 to 15 per day). I would
very
>much like to stay (it's a great help, great family, etc), but how much
worse
>will it get?
Steve's points are valid:
Many messages are probably replies intended to one person, but end up on the
list (I've asked Matt if there was a way to fix the reply-to address field
of
messages).
Some of the "I agree" responses are probably overkill (I guess this is one,
too).
Maybe just a little more discretion before posting may help keep the volume
down.
my $0.02 worth
-Kevin Vap
KC RVators http://www.sky.net/~kvap/kcrvator.html
kvap(at)sky.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dls(at)neptune.kpt.arl.psu.edu (Dan Shades) |
| Subject: | response to EAA Chapt. in WA |
Just a big thanks for all the response that I got from my posting for an EAA
chapter close to me. I have recieved alot of mail, every bit of it helpful.
Dan Shades RV-4
dls(at)neptune.kpt.arl.psu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
Matt et All,
I enjoy the list in it's present form. Yes, there are a lot of
redundant questions, and perhaps at times too much "chatter".
I suspect that those who are the most dissatisfied are those further
along or finished with there projects. As we all progress with our
project things like priming, drilling, dimpling become "old hat" and
S.O.P.
As a beginning builder, I went thru the FAQ's, Hovan's Home Page, and
what ever else I could get my hands on to read about building this
great airplane. I also joined the local EAA Chapter.
A first time builder is pretty overwhelmed with turning that first box
of sheet metal into an Airplane and the security of getting answers and
ideas from those who have been there lessens the nervousness of
building and builds confidence. I gather a few "nuggets" a week from
this list as I'm sure others do. Van's is selling almost a kit per day,
so the quantity of "newbies" is bound to grow. Let's try to guide them
to the archives.
Overall, we should all try to cut down on the chatter and only respond
to meaningful questions. We are all guilty at one time or another of
posting meaningless opinions or chatter.
As a personal note, Thanks to all who have answered my questions and
helped me do a better job on my project.
Ed Cole RV6A 24430 N648RV
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Change In Operation - PLEASE READ! |
No, I do not cc: automatically but when someone wants to insult me they
will do it to the whole list; for sure I'll cc: the reply out.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Gil Alexander wrote:
> Dan,
> ... in actual fact, David did not clutter up the list, he seems to
> have sent e-mail to you privately.
>
> You actually have cluttered the list by adding a "cc:
> rv-list(at)matronic.com" in your reply to him.
>
> Are you adding the CC: automatically??
>
> ... just wondering ... Gil Alexander
>
> *** this was sent privately ***
>
>
> >Sorry, I didn't ask you in the first place so I don't know why your're
> >cluttering up the list with this crap.
> >Dan Boudro
> >RV-4 N9167Z
> >
> >On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, David Allsop wrote:
> >
> >> In answer to your quesiton I will only say READ THE FAQ
> >>
> >> >what matronics is;
> >> >what hardware you do use;
> >> >how you got into this;
> >> >how much of your time is needed to maintain this list;
> >> >TIA
> >>
> >> Yes, you may have lots of time on your hands to sit and repeatedly delete
> >> the crap from the gold, but many of us have the 'Network Police' wondering
> >> why we get so much e-mail.
> >>
> >> David Allsop
> >> 2 'Plastic airplanes' Now it's time for a metal one.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | First Flight - accepting applications ? |
Hello fellow RV enthusiasts.
My RV6A - N517RL will be ready to launch skywards for the first time in about 4
weeks
or so. But... I have a problem. Unlike most of you guys, who, to me at least, sound
like you are carrier vets with 20,000 hours under the belt, (SPINS !!- EEK!!!!!)
I
have a PPL with only about 60 hours total - 3 of which are in an RV6A, and the
same 3
total in the last 18 months! - Building took precedence (sp?) over flying I suppose.
So, here is the pitch - I need some experienced, "relatively local" (to Houston)
RV
flyer to do my first flight, and importantly, also to give me some dual in my machine.
I will of course gladly pick up any expenses, and you will be welcome to stay with
us
at the house. Obviously I would like someone with some serious RV6A (6?) time to
help
me out - preferably with a CFI ticket so that my long extinct Biennial can be
revitalized at around the same time.
I got the above mentioned 3 hours at the factory with Mike Seagar (highly recommended
by the way !!!) who, (probably in the interests of public safety after taking me
up)
very generously offered his services to do the job. I would be happy do this -
no
problems since I have got plenty of free Southwest airlines miles accumulated,
and
will, unless I can find someone with "the right stuff" who is substantially closer
than Mike's 2000 or so miles away.
Obviously, I feel it is a bit of an imposition on Mike due to the distances involved,
and since he seems really busy already with his teaching schedule.
So that's it - "It's not just a job its an adventure" ! - (teaching me that is!!
(PPL
and clueless) - the first flight should be a breeze by comparison :) )
Please E-Mail me direct if you would like to apply. Thanks in advance.
(Rob (at least I'm sure I put all the rivets in) Lee
av8r(at)hic.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Becky Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov> |
All,
George and I don't mind all these messages one bit. The RVers are one
=
big happy family in general and we're always happy to hear from them and =
see the family grow. We've learned long ago that what seems =
insignificant to one person may be really, really important to another. =
One of the things that makes the RVs special is the builders' =
willingness to share and help each other.
I think Matt is providing us (free of charge) with an absolutely =
wonderful service. I'm sure, as he is a small business owner, that he =
doesn't have a spare 5 minutes in a day, much less 15-30 for our =
pleasure.
Let's let Matt do whatever is easiest and best for him and get on with
=
the building and flying!
Happy Building and Flying,
Becki Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
I just got my insurance bill, man. I keep "non-motion" hull insurance
because I'm concerned about s.one stealing the AC just for the engine.(half
the insurance cost)
What are others doing?
Is this a concern or am I being paranoid?
Does anyone know of an actual theft of an RV?
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Wheel Bearing Grease |
Prior to final assembly of the gear on a -6A, Tom at Van's recommended that
I repack the wheel bearings and grease that area on the gear legs. He
indicated that there is special grease for aviation, but was unable to
provide a source.
Do most builders put this extra lubrication in this area? If so, what
grease is recommended? I could not find any in A/C Spruce and the builders'
manual does not cover this, unless I missed it.
-Scott N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Lock tip-up canopy in partially opened position? |
All:
I'm posting this for a fellow RV'er who does not have internet access.
He has an absolutely beautiful RV-6 with the tip-up canopy.
As you know, it gets a little warm here in Arizona in the summertime. To
keep the heat from building up in the cockpit too much while eating one of
those $100 hamburgers, it would be nice to be able to lock (with a key)
the canopy in its 'open about 3-4 inches position'.
Has anyone done this? If so, I'd appreciate some details that I could
pass along to my friend.
Thanks in advance
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
N601DB
Fuselage in jig
'I ordered the slider'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Wheel Bearing Grease (fwd) |
I just use normal automotive WB grease. I have used Penzoil and other
brands over the years with no problems.
Think about it, we drive our cars for 50,000 miles or more as speeds up
to 80 mph and never touch the wheel bearings.
Aircraft just taxi and operate at up to 40 to 60 mph for very short periods.
We usually repack the bearings every two yrs or so on airplanes.
The main problem is operating off of dirt strips (for me).
> Reply-To: Scott Gesele
>
> Prior to final assembly of the gear on a -6A, Tom at Van's recommended that
> I repack the wheel bearings and grease that area on the gear legs. He
> indicated that there is special grease for aviation, but was unable to
> provide a source.
>
> Do most builders put this extra lubrication in this area? If so, what
> grease is recommended? I could not find any in A/C Spruce and the builders'
> manual does not cover this, unless I missed it.
>
> -Scott N506RV
>
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Bordelon <greg(at)brokersys.com> |
| Subject: | DEXTER AEROSPACE |
Does anyone have a phone number for DEXTER AEROSPACE?
I've searched the archive.....no luck on a phone number.
You may e-mail me directly.
Thanks....Greg
Greg Bordelon
greg(at)brokersys.com
Houston, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Gottschalk ((301) 286-0708)" <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Inverted tank fuel sending unit |
All,
Has anyone used a stiffening ring on the back side on the tank baffle when
installing the fuel level sending unit? The baffle is thicker than the end
rib and doesn't seem to need a stiffening ring. The plans don't cover the
question and I couldn't find a reference to it in the archive. What's the
general consensus?
-Gene, RV6a, backsliding to the inverted fuel tank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inverted tank fuel sending unit |
I put one on my first RV-4 w/o any stiffners and it worked fine.
I just cut a hole and installed the unit with nutplates.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Gene Gottschalk ((301) 286-0708) wrote:
> All,
>
> Has anyone used a stiffening ring on the back side on the tank baffle when
> installing the fuel level sending unit? The baffle is thicker than the end
> rib and doesn't seem to need a stiffening ring. The plans don't cover the
> question and I couldn't find a reference to it in the archive. What's the
> general consensus?
>
> -Gene, RV6a, backsliding to the inverted fuel tank
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rust47rg(at)one.net |
>I just got my insurance bill, man. I keep "non-motion" hull insurance
>because I'm concerned about s.one stealing the AC just for the engine.(half
>the insurance cost)
>What are others doing?
>Is this a concern or am I being paranoid?
>Does anyone know of an actual theft of an RV?
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 N9167Z
>
Dan:
I insure mine the same way. There have been 2 thefts of Cessnas in the
recent past in the Cincinnati area and they speculate that they were parted
out.
There are more situations where radios are taken and the plane isn't....and
you know how long it takes to slide a radio out of a tray.
Non motion insurance is a neccessary evil IMHO.
Regards:
Rusty Gossard
N47RG RV-4 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
| Subject: | Re: Looking To Buy A Finished RV-6/A or RV-4 |
There is a very nice RV-4 with 115hrs.TTSN including the new 160 H.P.
engine. The gentleman who built it Jim (J.J.) Banks is a very experienced
pilot who owns a sheet metal shop in PA. This was also the second RV-4 he
built and since has helped in the construction of an RV-6. If you or anyone
else is interested, e-mail me and I will get you in touch with him.
(jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com)
>I am currently looking to purchase an RV-6, RV-6A, or RV-4 completed with
>the hours flown off and licensed by the F.A.A. I would prefer an airplane
>with a hundred hours or more unless this is not the first airplane the
>builder has built. After completing 10 hours of dual RV-6 time with Mike
>Seager, I want to buy one now ! I am not picky on the model because I am
>planning to complete my RV-6A in a few years. My upper limit is $70,000 so
>if you are looking to sell your RV, please send me an Email of its
>specifications (SMOH, TT, Radios, etc) ASAP. Thanks ... Scott Johnson /
>Chicago rvgasj(at)mcs.com 708-980-3772 or 847-985-3772
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
| Subject: | Rod Bearing Cutouts |
Fellow builders,
How much area did you take out of the elevator rod end bearing cutouts.
Frank Justice's manual recommends cutting out the bottom portion to
full open and only a small opening on top. Has anyone done this, or do
you cut down to the spar flange on both sides. How about the rudder??
TIA
Ed Cole 24430 RV6A Finishing Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wheel Bearing Grease |
I'd use a good brand of disc brake type grease- this is rated for a higher
temp than other types. I think I use "Castrol" brand...
Rgds
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Setting Wing Incidence |
| From: | Mike Kukulski <kukulski(at)indirect.com> |
I am getting ready to fit my wings to my RV-4 fuselage, set the
incidence, drill the rear spar attach holes, and the other less critical
stuff. Any hints or suggestions on the best way to do this - i.e., tricks
Van doesn't mention in the manual? I'm concerning about things like how
many people required, temporary methods to bolt the spars in the
centersection, techniques to insure accuracy in leveling the fuselage and
aligning the wings, ways to support the wings, etc.. Any suggestions
would be appreciated - if you all think the manual's method is
sufficient, say that as well. Thanks.
Mike Kukulski (kukulski(at)indirect.com)
RV-4 N96MK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Setting Wing Incidence (fwd) |
One word of advice. Be sure to put on your flaps and ensure they clear
the fuselage before you drill the hole. On my RV4, I drilled the rear
spar hole and then later put on the flaps and found the flap root rib
rubbed on the fuselage side (this is the reinforced area that the
push/pull tube bolts to). I think the problem was that both wings
were back just a little at the tips and this can make quite a difference
at the root. I measured out to both wing tips from the rear fuselage
centerline and they were equal distance BUT I don't think they were
far enough forward. I know at least one other plane had the same
problem.
You can clamp this rear spar first to measure incedince and then
adjust it as needed. I then drilled it 1/8, then 1/4, and then the
final size. I just put in maybe 5 or 6 bolts in each wing main
centersection. Several of the large bolts and the smaller 1/4 inch
bolts by the fuselage sides.
Also, I found I could read a buble level closer than one of those
electronic levels. They measure to .1 degree but I could read a bubble
closer than that.
Also note that this bolt is a drilled bolt and takes a cotter pin.
Herman
> I am getting ready to fit my wings to my RV-4 fuselage, set the
> incidence, drill the rear spar attach holes, and the other less critical
> stuff. Any hints or suggestions on the best way to do this - i.e., tricks
> Van doesn't mention in the manual? I'm concerning about things like how
> many people required, temporary methods to bolt the spars in the
> centersection, techniques to insure accuracy in leveling the fuselage and
> aligning the wings, ways to support the wings, etc.. Any suggestions
> would be appreciated - if you all think the manual's method is
> sufficient, say that as well. Thanks.
>
> Mike Kukulski (kukulski(at)indirect.com)
> RV-4 N96MK
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Autopilot Wiring |
<< Jim-
Did you or didn't you connect the autopilot defeat feature to your PTT switch
to prevent RFI from confusing the system? I'm not sure if it's necessary in
an all metal structure. What do you think?
-Gary VanRemortel
Vanremog(at)aol.com >>
Gary,
I did NOT use that feature, and never noticed any problem. Perhaps others
have had different experiences? Interestingly, I do have some movement of
the needles on some of my engine gages whenever I transmit. I haven't
followed up on the problem (?) except that I've been told by experts that it
may be due to a non-perfect connection somewhere in the antenna system. I
have seen this in some factory airplanes too.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
I'll get along just fine without the list. I've got my RV and can
probably build another one with out too much input. I feel sad for all of
the builders just starting as there is a lot of knowledge among the "old
hands" on this list that they might miss. The RVer's have a reputation of
being very friendly and helpful to other builders and I would like to see
that tradition continued on the list. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
Bob,
I agree. One of the problems in starting out in this business of building is
knowing what questions to ask. I have learned a lot from others who have gone
ahead.
Steve Johnson
waiting for the RV-8
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner on Fri, Mar 29, 1996 8:48 AM |
I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au> |
To all the Oz builders,
I know this is very cheeky,
but as I have been building this machine for over 12 months I feel that I
can at least ask.
I would love to at least see a completed RV6 (I have seen the all Green
machine RV4 at Avalon last year). Better still, I would love to sit in one.
As as far as getting a ride in one........ well, I have a very attractive 15
year old daughter ..................
I'll be at the SAAA fly-in (Mangalor - the Year of the RV) on Sat & Sun next
week. Any kind souls could contact me direct so as not to gum up the system.
Royce Craven
roycec(at)ozemail.com.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Setting Wing Incidence |
>I am getting ready to fit my wings to my RV-4 fuselage, set the
>incidence, drill the rear spar attach holes, and the other less critical
>stuff. Any hints or suggestions on the best way to do this - i.e., tricks
>Van doesn't mention in the manual? I'm concerning about things like how
>many people required, temporary methods to bolt the spars in the
>centersection, techniques to insure accuracy in leveling the fuselage and
>aligning the wings, ways to support the wings, etc.. Any suggestions
>would be appreciated - if you all think the manual's method is
>sufficient, say that as well. Thanks.
>
>Mike Kukulski (kukulski(at)indirect.com)
>RV-4 N96MK
>
>
Van's had a full page article about two years ago in the Rvator that details
the drilling of the rear spar hole. I can fax it to you on Monday if you
want. Just send me a fax number, or ask Van's if you need it before Monday.
When I did mine, I pulled the fuse into the driveway and mounted both wings
at once.
I found two people were all that were needed, even for an RV-6A with those
main gear mounts in the way. I used hardware store bolts to temporarily
bolt the wings to the center section. This was to prevent any of the
cadmium plating from rubbing off of the close tolerance bolts. To level the
wings and fuse, I used water levels from wing tip to wing tip and along the
main longeron. That thing was level before any holes were drilled. I also
mounted the HS at this time. In order to made sure that the spar was
straight, I used an alignment string below the main spar, from tip to tip.
This was placed about 6" above the ground, with plumb lines dropped from the
from of the spar. These plumb line were dropped at the tip and root of each
wing. This ensured no forward or rearward sweep of the wings. Measuring
from each wing tip to a point on the centerline of the aft portion of the
fuse ensured that the wings were not cocked to one side.
No additional support is need if the fuse is up on the gear. The thing will
not tip over while one wing is on and you are putting the other one on.
Hope this helps.
-Scott N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM |
| Subject: | Would also like to go back to old style RV-LIST... |
> I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
> Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
> flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
> uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
> answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
> we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
> their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
> and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
> shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
> How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
> were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
> I'll get along just fine without the list. I've got my RV and can
> probably build another one with out too much input. I feel sad for all of
> the builders just starting as there is a lot of knowledge among the "old
> hands" on this list that they might miss. The RVer's have a reputation of
> being very friendly and helpful to other builders and I would like to see
> that tradition continued on the list. Bob Skinner RV-6
I'd like to second Bob's opinion. I'm a new builder (currently working
on the elevators for my RV-6/6A) and I don't mind digging through some
extraneous notes in order to get to the information that is important to
me.
I have only posted to the rv-list twice and I have been so delighted to
get 1/2 a dozen or so replies to each of my questions! It's really
really great having such a vast wealth of knowledge out there that I
can tap in to when I need a helping hand. I don't have access to a
solid local EAA chapter or RV group that can help me out, so this list
and Van's hotline are my two main sources for building tips.
I know it's a pain sometimes to go through RV mail every morning
(especially for experienced builders), but for people beginning their
RV projects, like me, it's well worth the hassle.
If we are careful about placing a good explanatory subject line on
all our notes, I think that will help a lot!!!
Thanks to this list for all the help I've gotten in the past...
Steve Heinlein
(RV-6/6A elevators and third RV-list posting!)
(Wings on order!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
I'm happy to not have to weed through all the static on the list in the morning,
but I would like to see _something_ happening. I think this is a temporary thing.
As listers learn to cc the list when appropriate, we will start to see more mail.
Part of the problem was, everything under the sun (or PC if that's what you are
driving) was going to the list. Adding a cc to rv-list(at)matronics.com is alot
easier than decodeing the original senders address from the header.
Kill files are great for mail coming from sources that you know will send a
high percentage of drivel, but it's a sledg-hamer approach and will filter good
as well as bad.
I say keep the list as it is now and see what shakes out. This will encourage
listers to be a little more conscious of what they are sending and who is getting
it. As most people are new to this medium, most are happy to get lots of mail.
When you start to get hundreds a day, it's no fun anymore.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
RV List
Steve,
At the risk of getting my head blown off again; I also agree, I'll get along
fine too, I've built two RV-4's and am looking forward to my next one. I'm
about to take the fueslage to the hanger; I feel just like a kid with a new
toy on X-mas!
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
On 29 Mar 1996, Johnson, Steve wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I agree. One of the problems in starting out in this business of building is
> knowing what questions to ask. I have learned a lot from others who have gone
> ahead.
>
> Steve Johnson
>
> waiting for the RV-8
> spjohnson(at)mmm.com
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> From: Bob Skinner on Fri, Mar 29, 1996 8:48 AM
> Subject: RV-List: RV list demise?
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
> Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
> flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
> uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
> answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
> we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
> their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
> and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
> shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
> How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
> were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | For Mark Fredricks only - chatter |
Mark, Howdy, lost your email addr.
Just wanted to chat about HRs a little.
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
I would like to second the thoughts of Bob, and others that the old RV list
'aint what she used to be. This new format is a lot smaller, but I think the
content is suffering dramatically.
I for one don't mind getting 100 messages. It's fairly obvious and quick to
delete the subjects that don't interest you, but you can't read the ones that
don't get posted.
I'm far enough along that most of my "dumb" questions have already been
answered, but it wasn't very long ago that I was asking a lot of questions
that probably made most of the list roll their eyes. However, that info
helped me more than I can say. It was information that was avialable
virtually NO WHERE else.
I think we owe it to those in the early stages to benefit from the vast
knowledge available here. If we just reply amongst ourselves, what is the
advantage of the list?
All this is moot if this format makes it easier on Matt; I would be the last
one to suggest that he isn't doing enough for the RV community. However, if
the reason is just because a few people don't want "all that mail" in their
in-box, then I would suggest turning the list back the way it was and letting
those individuals decide whether they want to continue subscribing.
I mean, if you just want to chat with someone, you can pull their name out of
the header and respond to them directly. Besides, a small amount of chatter
on the list makes it more "homey" and sometimes imparts good information
besides.
My opinions DO reflect those of my employer...
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
>I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
>Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
>flowers?
Bob
I agree 100 percent, as I told Matt I bet if there were a survay done the
old way would win. This list is for fun and learning, I think if some people
don't like the chatter maybe they could find another source of information.
Myself I like hearing about a flyin in Timbuckto or maybe someones pet Gerbal
died in OZ this is what makes RV people unique and a friendly bunch. I have
been flying my RV-6 to flyins since 1989 and you do not find the same
friendship among the plastic airplane owners and builders.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
My first impression is the same as that listed below. More information is
shared with more people the old way. And the bit about not knowing what has
already been answered migh result in less interaction with new builders.
We should give the current approach some more time to establish itself
before making hasty changes....
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
>I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
>Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
>flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
>uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
>answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
>we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
>their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
>and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
>shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
> How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
>were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
> I'll get along just fine without the list. I've got my RV and can
>probably build another one with out too much input. I feel sad for all of
>the builders just starting as there is a lot of knowledge among the "old
>hands" on this list that they might miss. The RVer's have a reputation of
>being very friendly and helpful to other builders and I would like to see
>that tradition continued on the list. Bob Skinner RV-6
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
I couldn't agree more with Bob Skinner's assessment of making the
RV-List more "efficient" -- I liked it the way it was. I now wish I
had spoken up sooner, and let folks know how I felt.
"Efficient" is what I do all day for a living...the RV-List for me was
a delightful break from all of that, and I'm sorry to see that it has
changed, *hopefully* not for good.
Skimming or not reading was a choice I had. I feel that the current
state of affairs has been imposed on me, by a select few, and I'm
really annoyed. For all of those new to the list, I'm STILL happy to
read your mail, and will do my best to impart whatever assistance I
can, even though I'm pretty new myself.
Very grumpily yours...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Angiulo <mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com> |
At the risk of sending Me Too mail, I would like to add that I'm
extremely sad that the RV list has been semi-silenced. I'm a brand new
builder who is going to start on an RV-8 as soon as they become
available. I've been reading every message every day for weeks now and
have learned quite a bit about where to get started. Working at
Microsoft I have learned how to delete large amounts of irrelevant or
redundant mail, and don't really mind doing so. I would really like to
see the full list come back.
-Mike
RV8 hopeful
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Read This: Vote For Your Preference... |
Okay, the only email to the RV-List in the last few days has been about the
List and a what should be done about it. Since the US is a democracy, at
least in theory, so is the RV-List. I am going to do an 'official' survey
of the RV-List members. Based strictly on a vote count I will either leave
the List as it is now (the NEW way), or change it back to the old way (the
OLD way). I will check the votes in about a week and make a determination.
I will obviously post my findings.
Here's how the survey will work; READ THIS BEFORE SENDING ANY EMAIL REGARDING
THE SURVEY!!!!
To make this as simple as possible for myself, I have set up a special survey
email account. I will be using the text found in the *Subject* field to
count the votes and I will not be reading the messages, only looking at the
Subject lines. Do *not* use the 'vote' email account for anything but casting
your vote.
Format your message *EXACTLY* as shown below, and only submit *ONE* vote. You
will *not* receive a conformation of your vote.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND ANY VOTES TO THE RV-LIST!!!!
Happy Building
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
-------------------------- To Vote For The *NEW* Way --------------------------
To keep the List as it is now with replies going to the sender only and
requiring that the replyer CC the RV-List, send a message with exactly the
following information:
+-----------------------------------------------+
| To: vote(at)matronics.com |
| Subject: NEW |
| |
| (body of msg): survey |
+-----------------------------------------------+
-------------------------- To Vote For The *OLD* Way --------------------------
To restore the List operation back to the way it was, where replies would
automatically go back to the RV-List, send a message with exactly the
following information:
+-----------------------------------------------+
| To: vote(at)matronics.com |
| Subject: OLD |
| |
| (body of msg): survey |
+-----------------------------------------------+
________________________________________________________________________________
I heartily second Bob's Ideas - reading the answers/responses was a big part of
the list's success. PLEASE Mat - put it back like it was....
Rob Lee
_______________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner on Fri, Mar 29, 1996 8:48 AM |
I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
Let me toss my hat in the ring. I may still be in the "Saving up to buy a
garage to build it in" stage (this summer if all goes well) but I like to see
things get debated back and forth.
It's funny, but every time the Primers thread starts up again, it actually
evolves a little. The idea of "Don't ask, it's in the archive" doesn't allow
for new information. The last time, the Sherwin Williams wash primer was
added to the equation, and it's starting to sound like Variprime may lose its
king-of-the-hill position. One day, I'll be doing the tanks, and maybe I'll
flash on a solution. "Oh yeah, I remember reading about that on the RV-List."
The failure to use the Reply-To header (Although I think it was that way a
long time ago) means that mostly what we'll see on the list are questions
without answers, and especially without new answers, and more importantly, bad
answers being given without the benefit of peer review. (I seem to recall a
real doozey a month or so ago). I'd rather see fifteen people post "Good God!
No!" messages than wonder whatever happened to the guy who asked if he could
drill lightening holes in his spar.
MAYbe what the complainers need is a digest format, where the list server
format collects an entire day's worth of messages and sends them in one mondo
message. Of course, then they have to sort the whole thing visually, but it's
only one message.
So I vote to put things back.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.lkg.dec.com |
I don't see that the cc/to format change is that much of a big deal.
More significantly, it seems that many people are now afraid to post notes.
Why??
Personally, I'm past the point where anybody is going to scare me off of
a mailing list. I fully intend to continue asking stupid questions. I just
can't think of any right now. If anybody doesn't like it, I'll start
another primer discussion!!!!.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NMARSHAL(at)auto.rockwell.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
This about says it all - lets get back to the old list a.s.a.p.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: RV list demise?
Date: 29/03/96 08:09
I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
I'll get along just fine without the list. I've got my RV and can
probably build another one with out too much input. I feel sad for all of
the builders just starting as there is a lot of knowledge among the "old
hands" on this list that they might miss. The RVer's have a reputation of
being very friendly and helpful to other builders and I would like to see
that tradition continued on the list. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Jorgensen <rpjorgen(at)wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
I like the changes in the way the list is now configured.
*****************************************************************************
rick jorgensen
email address:rpjorgen(at)wheel.ucdavis.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
| From: | Bill Downey <billd(at)ibmoto.com> |
My mailer 'exmh' allows me to pick to reply to all, as I have done
here, or reply to just the sender, just by clicking one field or the
other. Since with the old method, all and just the sender, were one in
the same, this didn't do me much good. With the new method it is much
easier to route my replys. I don't expect either method would change
who I would reply to.
From the volume of mail I'm getting on the debate of new method vs.
old method, it seems that the new method is working just fine. Now if
we can just get people to start talking about airplanes, instead what
method of reply we use, the list would function as it always has.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator RTV |
>I was just about to close up my right elevaor when it occurred to me that there
>was no call to put some RTV adhesive at the juncture of the stiffeners and the
>trailing edge of the elevator. Should this be done? I see nothing in the plans
>that say to do it, but if it would help to prevent skin cracks (the reason Vans
>gives in his instructions on the rudder) then I would do it.
>Has anybody else done it? Is it recommended?
>
>Thanks
>
>Fran Malczynski - RV6(A)
Fran,
I went ahead and used it. Can't hurt. not much weight.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
OK, how about some airplane talk?
I just recently had to put the conduit for electrical behind the fuel
tanks and out to the pitot and wing tips. I had planed to use the
leftover threds on the -3 bolts in the main spar to fasten clamps for the
conduit. I found that the standard 5/8" mil-spec clamps were to big to
fit behind the tank as well as to thick to allow the Nyloc nuts to get the
full 3 threds hanging out the end. I decided to make clamps out of .032
Alclad. It's alot easier that I thought it would be. Here's the quick
and dirty description of the process;
Cut strips of .032 Alclad 5/8" wide X 4 5/16" long. Drill a #12 hole
5/16" from each end and put a 5/16" radius on both ends of each strip.
Use a 1/2" deep-well socket as a mandrel to bend a 75 degree angle on
one end, centered about 5/8" from one end. This will be the top tab of
the clamp. Then use a 9/16" socket as the mandrel to make the loop of
the clamp. Bend the strip all the way around the until it reaches the
other end and the holes match. Finish the clamp with a short section of
1/2" shrink tube. Slide the shrink tube over the Clamp and heat it
over the stove or use a heat gun. They're cheap and quick to make.
The best part is the material is thin enough to fit behind the tanks
and allow extra threds (Min. of 3 per FAA) to extend beyond the
self-locking nuts.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Bordelon <greg(at)brokersys.com> |
THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO REHASH A PRIMER DISCUSSION!
FYI purposes only.....THANK YOU
I had the opertunity to see 15 year old Military Learjets torn down to =
the basic structure for inspection purposes. I was impressed with how =
the structure was corrosion free and new looking. The primer on the =
birds appeared to be zinc chromate. I called Learjet and they had the =
following to say:
1. The interior of the wings including the fuel tanks (almost entirely =
wet wing) were painted with an AKZO epoxy primer 454-4-1 with CA109 =
catalyst. The cost from Learjet was $126 including catalyst. He said I =
was a a gallon of primer.......don't know if he meant gallon of primer =
and gallon of catalyst or both combined made a gallon?
2. The rest of the structure (fusalage and tails I guess) was painted =
with an AZKO epoxy primer 463-12-8 with CA116 catalyst. They also said =
that recently they have been testing a "BOEING" primer for the rest of =
the structure and may change to it.=20
Like any good homebuilder when he said $126 I knew I could find it =
somewhere else cheaper. After searching the archives I saw that you were =
knowledgeable with this primer. =20
****note: The new number for DEXTER AEROSPACE is 708-623-4200 and GRACO =
is the Texas area distributor. GRACO's number is 817-429-0466.=20
GRACO sells a one gallon kit which when mixed with the hardner will make =
two gallons. Their price for the kit is $91.20 + shipping + handling + =
hazardous material fees. I also found out from GRACO the 454-4-1 is a =
fuel tank coating. Don't think I want to spray this stuff.=20
I called COURTAULDS AEROSPACE today. Their main phone number has =
changed from 1800-332-7686 to 818-240-2060. Their Texas area distributor =
can be reached at 214-988-0376. They sell a MIL STD 23377 primer. It =
sells for $77.13 for a single "kit" (two gallons when mixed) and $46.75 =
for a six gallon kit. =20
Thought this might be of interest to you.............Thanks for the =
help..Greg =20
Greg Bordelon=20
greg(at)brokersys.com
Houston Texas
=20
----------
From: Gil Alexander[SMTP:gil(at)bala.hac.com]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 1996 12:11 PM
Subject: DEXTER AEROSPACE - second copy
Greg,
This came off the cans ...
Dexter Aerospace Coatings 803-277-1870
The stuff we are using is a McDonald Douglas specification item =
and
goes by DMS (Douglas Material Spec. -- I think) 1786. It might be =
slightly
different for sale in the S. Calif. area due to Air Pollution standards.
DMS 1786 Epoxy Curing Solution/Hardener, code: CA-116
DMS 1786G Fluid Resistant Epoxy Primer, code: 463-12-8
I believe the code numbers are what you order by ....
... hope this helps ..... Gil Alexander
PS. you can get a better price if you tell the local distributor you =
want
to do a "cash - will call" pick-up and say you are from a local large
aerospace company -- this should get you about a 20% discount if you ask
nicely ... :^) At this point, this primer is the most cost-effective
around.
PPS the only thing bad about it is that it's TOO easy to apply, and you
can put on a far thicker layer than is needed (0.001 inches is all you
want). Just turn that gun paint volume control down!
PPPS - real interesting about painting _inside_ the Lear fuel tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi all, and please tell your friends:
There will be a race similiar to the Sun 100 at the Georgetown (TX) Fly-in
this year, May 4/5. Min entry speed 140 mph, experimentals only, limited to
20 entries, due to time restrictions for recovery at end of race. Spam may
run the course, but no trophys will be awarded to them. Sorry- this the first
year, and those in charge want to see what the heck happens before letting
this thing get too big. $20 entry fee, trophy plaques for top speed in each
class, also gimme caps (awright!) for all entries.
Questions to me, please.
Volunteer help welcome, too.
Mark Frederick
mlfred(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
My, my we have had quite a bit of debate about the state of the RV-List.
Matt has sent a survey. Vote for your RV-List preference.
I, for one, don't really care which way that we do it.
But...
If the vote is for the NEW version, then ___please___ summarize the
responses to your question for the benefit of everyone else. That
way everyone shares and traffic won't be a "bother" to those find
deleting email painful.
Otherwise, if the vote YES we'll go back to receiving 30 - 50
RV-List emails a day and you can scrub what you don't want to read.
If your boss thinks that you are wasting his time, then find out
about UUCP/SLIP/PPP/AOL/Compuserv/Prodigy and get your RV-List email
at home (assuming you have a computer at home). Or unsubscribe.
Megaphone off.
tw
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:19:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Jorgensen <wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us!rpjorgen(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV list demise?
I like the changes in the way the list is now configured.
*****************************************************************************
rick jorgensen
email address:rpjorgen(at)wheel.ucdavis.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Canopy Woes, and Project Status... |
Hello everyone,
A couple of people have written me email over the last few months mentioning
that fact that they hadn't see a lot of project postings from me in quite a
while in the archive file. Well, as many of you know, I've been working hard
on the new Matronics FuelScan for about the last 3 years and havn't had the
time to devote to the -4. As the weather turned nice here in California this
year, and as I found that a nice RV would be a really great thing to test all of
the new Matronics products in, I decided it was *way* past time to get back in
the shop. Wow, its been great! I had forgotten just how much fun building an
airplane is. Here's an excerpt from an email I sent to Don Wentz on
my status. After reading it over, it seemed like something the List might
enjoy and certainly a refereshing change from the discussions of late...
"...I've been making great progress on my -4. I hope to finish up the canopy
this weekend, although that might be a little optimistic. Certainly will get
the plexi mounted to the frame and start the skirts. I had a hell of a time
last weekend trying to get that white protective crap off. I guess 8 years is
too long to wait... The manual says just use warm soapy water, but that didn't
really even do anything. I spent most of the day scrubbing and scrapping with
a hard rubber flat thing and squirting it with a high pressure nozzle on the
hose. These techniques got most of it off, but there was still a lot of
crap left that I just couldn't get off. I looked through the RV-List archives
and found a posting about some guy using ProSeal on his -6 canopy to keep it
from leaking. In it he mentioned that you could clean up with laquere thinner
and that it didn't attack the plexi. I tried it on a piece of scrap and sure
enough it didn't bother it and it did sort of melt the white crap. I used
about a gallon of laquere thinner to get the canopy completely clean - I was a
little 'high' after that job... :-) All the thinner really does is slightly
soften the white crap so it's easier to clean off with a rag. I finally did
get it all cleaned up, but it took most of a day - what a waste of time.
Surprisingly enough, I didn't sratch the plexi in all that scrapping and
cleaning which really shocked me. I thought for-sure the canopy was ruined.
Oh well, I'm sure that will happen when I start fitting it to the frame!
I've putting a lot of work into the tail fiberglass tips as well. See, way
back when I built them, I originally tried to do that bull shit thing it talks
about in the manual about the spray in foam stuff that you can shape anyway
you want. Well it didn't work and so I took it all off and put the standard
fiberglass tips on. The problem was that all that mucking around with the
tips really screwed up the metal and tail looked like shit because of it. The
last week or so I've been glassing and sanding and glassing and sanding and I
can't believe it but they are really starting to look good! They will probably
going to be a little bulgy at the ends because of all the glass build up, but
they will be smooth. I have another tail kit that I will build for this plane
to replace these original ones, but I will use the old ones to get the bird
in the air and worry about making a nice looking tail later.
As soon as the canopy frame is done, I will complete disassemble the inside of
the fuse then prime and rivit everything together. At that point the fuse is
basically done. I need to fit and mount the tail, and then start on the gear
and mount. What do you think; fly in a month? Ha, maybe not. Won't be long
though if I can keep up the hours. I've put in about 50 hours in the last 2
weeks, and I think that I can keep up that pace. If I have 1000 hours left
before I fly, that would be about 10 months. I would think that 1000 hours is
way high considering I've got 1400 in so far. We'll see..."
Let's talk RVs!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING List Demise
Well I have been standing by soaking it all up and I must say there are sound
reasons on both sides of the argument.
Richard Chandler brought up an incredible important point and that is peer
review. This list aint no sewing circle. The information or MIS-information
passed about can result in DEATH. The input/experience from past builders,
engineers, knowledgeable contributors and generally brilliant types is
invaluable. We cannot do anything to loose this resource. If we minimize the
intrusion on THEIR lives we will all benefit. If we recede to the lowest
common denominator of a chat group, you might be socially happy but at what
cost!
Folks we must realize there are hundreds of us all over the globe. Our lives
are as individualistic as our fingerprints. While we are united with an
aviation or builder focus, absolutely no life-style is the same. I think
what some folks don't understand is how absolutely precious personal time is
to some people. Even though YOU have prioritized the time to peruse the list
it is wrong to assume someone else has the same time or priorities.
The arguments about using the delete key just don't wash and are overly
simplistic. Sure one key stroke could wipe out hundreds of messages - but
who would do it? This list is a gold mine and everyone is searching for the
occasional nugget. It is a constant source of stress to decide to take a peek
at a message or outright delete it! Even skimming 50-80 messages can easily
take an hour, and in-depth reading, who knows how long. Yeah I know, save
it! (but it still has to be read later). If you don't have the hour to spend
that day you resent some of the drivel.
I believe this is a technical forum FIRST and a pseudo social (or "rv family")
forum second. The new method will work if you ALWAYS CC TECH INFO to the list
but think twice about the social stuff. I think the NEW system
architecturally fosters a more streamlined approach, is considerate of those
without a lot of time, but is flexible enough to allow anyone to post ANY
REQUEST.
In my years on this earth I have never met such a caring, sharing, unselfish
group of people in my life. Even though a definite chill has descended on the
list it has happened before and bounced back. Lets give it a try. -Elon
ps. I accept all critism that this is too long an may be deemed as swill by
the flamers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ed Sterba Prop Dia/Pitch?? |
Id love to get some feedback from Ed Sterba prop users.
Im working on a 160 hp RV-4. I will typically operate from at least 2500
feet, and am looking for good speed. From the few people Ive spoken with
Im thinking of a Sterba prop with a 70 dia. and 74 pitch.
Thanks,
Boris Robinson
n51br(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Elect Fuel Pumps IO-320 |
Question: What are the sources for aux electric fuel pumps for an injected
IO-320 (160 hp)?
Do I have to pay $500 to $700 as in the Spruce catalogs?
Thanks,
Boris Robinson
n51br(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello,
Im located in Ft. Pierce, Florida on the barrier island (yes, humidity &
salt are a problem) and Im building an RV-4. I am about 40-50% through the
wings. Fuse & finish kits and engine IO-320 (160 hp) were just ordered.
Within the immediate local area we have 6 RVs being constructed, that I know
of and numerous other types of aircraft. I have a single engine land and
glider rating. I enjoy aerobatics. Ive got a 1946 Taylorcraft BC12-D,
which I restored 3 years ago, and also a Grob Astir CS77 sailplane.
Im new to the RV-list and have many questions that I know Ill finally be
able to get some answers to. Thanks in advance.
Boris Robinson
n51br(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
Sensenich on net http://www.sensenich.com/ B.S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
I'm sitting here looking at the RV-6 plans page showing how the F-628,
629, and 630 attach the the F606 bulkhead, and there is something I don't
understand.
The F-606 rear baggage bulkhead has a 1-1/8-inch wide hole in the bottom
center for the elevator pushtube. sheet 33 shows that the F-629 rib
mounts 1 inch outboard from the aircraft ceneterline. The forward flange
of that rib faces inboard. That flange is 5/8-inch wide. Therefore the
outboard 3/16 of the pushtube hole on that side is covered by the forward
flange of F-629. Furthermore, you can't rivet the f-629 flange to the
f606 bulkhead and maintain edge distance in that area.
What gives?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Angiulo <mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com> |
| Subject: | What's the deal with the RV-3 |
I'm still in the research and planning stages while I wait for the RV8
kits to become available. I'm curious, though, about the RV-3. Why is
it that the info pack downplays what looks like the hottest (and
definitely most affordable) RV? None of the easy-build options like
spar or skin drilling are offered, nor are the options like electronic
trims and such.
I probably am still going to decide on having a second seat, but the
cost savings and simplicity of the 3 are appealing. So what's the story
with these? Is the kit less advanced (and therefore harder to build)?
Are they harder to fly? Any opinions welcome.
Thanks,
-Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
I agree with Bob. So maybe you had to kiss a lot of frogs before you
found a princess, but I have 83 valuable reponses stored for future
reference in my project. There seems little of value turning up now,
and the humor is gone.........
I'm going on vacation and spending Easter at Mangalore. Van will be
there and I'm going to try to get a definitive answer to the F604
bottom skin rivet dimple countersink argument. Will post the result when I
resubscribe after Easter.
Au revoir
Peter Bennett
Sydney Australia
RV6 skinning fuselage
> I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
> Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
> flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
> uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
> answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
> we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
> their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
> and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
> shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
> How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
> were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
> I'll get along just fine without the list. I've got my RV and can
> probably build another one with out too much input. I feel sad for all of
> the builders just starting as there is a lot of knowledge among the "old
> hands" on this list that they might miss. The RVer's have a reputation of
> being very friendly and helpful to other builders and I would like to see
> that tradition continued on the list. Bob Skinner RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Time for r.a.h.rv (longish) |
I agree! I'd like to see this list limited to only" technically related data"
for building. Maybe a separate section for socializing. And replies limited
to the sender is a good idea.
Mal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ed Sterba Prop Dia/Pitch?? |
Aymar-Demuth props are GUARANTEED to perform to your satisfaction! I had one
of these on my -4 'till I sold it, and it did what the maker said it would,
even tho he really bragged it up! A local builder has a Sterba ready to put
on his -6, but he's a ways from flying. Seems the Sterbas are a lot cheaper,
tho.
Props are a tough choice...
Check six!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elect Fuel Pumps IO-320 |
Call Airflow Performance- they have a good pump with a bypass already plumbed
in for about $300. Of course, it's not FAA-PMA approved...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Bordelon <greg(at)brokersys.com> |
Okay, now that I did not start another primer discussion I thought some =
of you might be interested in how my jig was constructed.
After Rob Lee and I spent the weekend painting...... like we have for a =
month now, we decided to do something different like BUILDING. =
Scrounging through the local builder supply we were dissatisfied with =
their selection of lumber. Looking around we found some particle board =
3/4' x 5.5' x 10". We decided to construct the jig with it. =
Additionally, we found some 1' x 3' x 10" galvanized steel hat sections. =
We bought enough to construct the jig and headed for the house.
Armed with drills, screws, glue and beer we were dangerous. The =
construction process went as follows:
1. Contstructed the uprights by laminating (sandwiching if you will) two =
pieces of the particle board together. Then we screwed two of the steel =
hat sections to one side of the particle board laminate. The steel hat =
sections were laid out side by side with the the inner flanges over =
lapping onto each other. Did this task twice, two uprights remember.
2. Constructed the horizontal member using two pieces of the particle =
board by forming a T-section.=20
3.Attached the uprights to the garage rafters and epoxied the bottom to =
floor.
4. Attached the horizontal member using gussets and epoxy.
The whole process took less than two hours. We spent more time =
scrounging for the material than we did constructing the jig. Total cost =
was sixty five dollars. After a week I applied two coats of exterior =
latex paint and used the dental floss method for drawing the lines. =
While drawing the lines I measured an 1/8 inch sag in the middle of the =
horizontal member. I added a brace in the center to remove the sag.
Note in my introductory posting I stated that I was going to rip up the =
carpet in the den and build airplanes in there. Rob and others convinced =
me otherwise. Besides it should have been a clue when the my significant =
other said "yeah baby you can build in the den, how much noise can it =
be?" hah hah hah. =20
Hopefully some of you will benefit from my experiences.
Greg Bordelon=20
greg(at)brokersys.com
Houston Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AB320FLYER(at)aol.com |
Greetings,
I would like to bring up an idea for your consideration. It seems to me that
the further you progress in the building process, the less you need the
resourses of the RV-list but the more the list needs your the benefit of
your experiences. As the benefits decline and the time to digest the list
increases, the likelihood that some very knowledgable builders will cease to
make their services available, is something we all need to consider. Pushing
the cc button is just one small step that allows time to consider if the
information in the message is valuable to anyone or everyone.
Joel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Crothers <rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy Woes, and Project Status... |
Matt,
Thanks for the overview of your progress. For those lurkers like
myself there are always some gems of understanding to be gleaned from a
message like this one. Oh yea, and thanks for keeping this list together, it
makes waiting a lot easier. I have mentioned to several people that I will
probably be the most educated new builder ever by the time I get started,
thanks to the list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rwoodard(at)lawyernet.com |
| Subject: | Re:New builder education |
RC>Matt,
RC> Thanks for the overview of your progress. For those lurkers like
RC>myself there are always some gems of understanding to be gleaned from a
RC>message like this one. Oh yea, and thanks for keeping this list together, it
RC>makes waiting a lot easier. I have mentioned to several people that I will
RC>probably be the most educated new builder ever by the time I get started,
RC>thanks to the list.
I'm your basic "lurker" too. Between this list and the Orndorff tapes I
received last week I hope to be at least familiar with building by the
time the RV-8 tail kit ships in the next couple of months. I have no
affiliation with the Orndorffs other than being a satisfied customer.
Their tapes are really great for showing what actually goes into
building. I've convinced myself that I'm capable and hope to convince a
friend too--all with the tapes.
Keep up the building and sharing ideas/problems/solutions. I'm sure
there are a bunch of us lurkers who look forward to every word.
Rod Woodard
Loveland, Colorado
Waiting for the -8
RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
| Subject: | Lock tip-up canopy in partially opened position? |
it would be nice to be able to lock (with a key)
the canopy in its 'open about 3-4 inches position'.
I my RV3 manual (I think) there is a suggestion of drilling 4 holes
instead of 2 for the latch pushrods. The additional 2 2 - 4 inches
higher than the holes for the completely closed position. That could
possibly work for him. (this applies of course only to the side-hinged
canopies.
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
I've been trying to figure out a way to mark the cutoff front portion of the
canopy on my RV-4. I didn't want to use the sharpie pen since this might/would
become permanent and that just wouldn't do. In thinking about it just now it
occurs to me that if you can clean the canopy with laquere thinner, then the
sharpie pen marks are probably okay. Anyway, here's a better idea. Try the
dry erase markers used on those white caulk boards. It works really well on
the plexi, and it just wipes off with a finger. Just a tip from your Uncle
Matt...
Merry Building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
The following was taken from the Sensenich Propeller Co. Web Site.
http://www.sensenich.com. There is a lot of interesting material on
their Web page. I thought this might interest the group...
72FM8 Series Propeller Update!
Designed for the Lycoming O-360 Series EngineBR
On Monday, February 26th, the new 72FM8S16-0-80 prototype was installed
and briefly flown in Lewisville, Texas. Mr. Martin Sutter agreed to
assist Sensenich with the testing on his RV-6 (N868CM) with a Lycoming
O-360-A4M (180 HP). The static RPM was 2200, and the wheels had to be
chocked!
A brief take-off and climb indicated an increase in climb rate over
Martin's current wood prop.
On Tuesday, February 27th, the full testing program was completed
including, static RPM, take-off distance, constant airspeed climb from
1000' to 8000', and level flight performance at several altitudes.
Comments by Ken Degraff (Sensenich Engineering)...
Starting was not as abrupt with the metal as with the wood, which turns
over several times and then boom! starts.
Static provided increased thrust over the current wood propeller. The
wood propeller acheived a static RPM of 2050 and could be held with the
aircraft brakes. The metal propeller acheived 2200 RPM with the wheels
chocked as the brakes could not hold the aircraft.
Climb performance, even prior to the reduction of the flight data, was
definitely improved above the wood propeller.
The increased weight on the nose made the aircraft more stable with a
slight increase in the required stick forces.
Lead fouling, which Martin had experienced with the wood propeller, was
not evident with the metal.
There is also data published with this report, see the Sensenich Web
page.
Ed Cole RV6A 24430
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael C. Gamble" <mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com> |
Hi all!=20
I felt like i should put in my $.02 worth. I am not yet building an RV =
but it is the one I will build. I am trying to get all the info I can =
before I start building my RV. I like this list, it is very informative. =
But, I also have two other list that I am on. Both of which are =
necessary for my business. I'm in computers. Consequently I was about to =
stop taking this list. It was just too many messages every day. Now it =
has cut back a lot.=20
One of the other lists that I am on whent to having the return be the =
person who sent the message, and yes content went down quite a bit. But =
it is now back up where it was. It takes a while for people to realize =
they have to add CC: or change the To:. Hang in there quys, this other =
list is now humming right along and there is not nearly the amout of =
drivle messages.
Mick
----------
From: =
aol.com!EBundy2620(at)matronics.com[SMTP:aol.com!EBundy2620(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 1996 9:09 AM
Subject: RV-List: "Old" RV list
I would like to second the thoughts of Bob, and others that the old RV =
list
'aint what she used to be. This new format is a lot smaller, but I =
think the
content is suffering dramatically.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
I'm putting together a WWW home page about my RV Project. If anyone else
has a home page and would like to exchange hyper-links, drop me a note.
It's not very fancy yet, but I'm going to try to get lots of pictures and
what not in there over time.
If anyone is interested in taking a peek:
http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg/rv.html
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bpboyd(at)cdsnet.net (bruce boyd) |
| Subject: | Re: Ed Sterba Prop Dia/Pitch?? |
>I'd love to get some feedback from Ed Sterba prop users
>
>Thanks,
>Boris Robinson
>n51br(at)aol.com
>
>Boris,
>I have a 68-72 Sterba prop on my 160hp RV-6, My airport is 4100'. I get
2300rpm static,
climb out about 1400-1500fpm solo, 800-1000 at gross. At 8500' cruise
2500rpm (because it
runs smooth there) I get 150knts true. At full throttle it will do about
2650rpm at 8500'.
Also it uses only 8gph at that cruise, Better than my 150hp RV-4 I use to have.
I am happy with the prop so far and it was less than other props I checked on.
Ed Sterba seems to be a nice guy also.
I hope this helps.
Bruce Boyd
RV-6 595BP with 50hrs so far.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Weeping Fuel Tank Rivets |
| From: | Mike Kukulski <kukulski(at)indirect.com> |
Just finished helping Dan Boudro attach his RV-4's wings at the airport.
He had the fuel truck top off his tanks in 2 gallon increments so he
could determine the accuracy of his gauges. One tank had one rivet at the
leading edge (in the middle rib, of course) that leaked. We drained the
fuel, and discussed remedies. The plan is to clean the area and smear
some ProSeal over the offending rivet to seal the seep. I know this topic
has been covered in the list with other methods mentioned, but I can't
recall specifics. Can anyone relate any other method that they can
recommend to fix this weeping rivet. Fixing the leak will stop Dan's
weeping!
Mike Kukulski (kukulski(at)indirect.com)
RV-4 N96MK, ready to attach wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net> |
Hey Builders, I've noticed some of you all have been attaching URS's
to your messages with photo's of your projects. I think that idea is
great and I'm visiting every one. Wish we could get more picts of
finished and unfinished projects on the net.
Anyone coming to southern illinois soon, hope to start on the fuselage
in a week and still haven't seen a 6 real life.
chet razer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Morristec(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Weeping Fuel Tank Rivets |
Mike,
If you intend to seal the offending rivet from outside the tank you will have
to force the proseal into the rivet hole somehow. The Airforce has a
standard repair for this using special tools, but I will try to describe what
they do. First defuel the tank. Clean the paint from the rivet and
surrounding skin. Using MEK or Acetone, thoroughly clean the rivet area.
Make an adapter for your air nozzle from heavy wall clear PVC tubing
(hardware store variety) about 3/8" ID. Cut one end to fit the skin contour
around the rivet, and adapt the other to an air nozzle. After cleaning the
rivet with the solvent apply air pressure to force any residual fuel, and
solvent from around the rivet. When completly dry, apply proseal generously.
Place the tube over the rivet and apply air pressure. Maintain the pressure
for a couple of minutes to allow the proseal to enter the space between the
rivet and the skin. Clean up, and hope for the best. Of coarse, finding the
leak from the inside is muucchh better and more positive, but I am assuming
that that would be last ditch.
Best of luck with the repair. I have had good experiences with this method
in the past. Just get things very clean.
Dan Morris
Morristec(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Tree <grtree(at)itis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV list demise? |
Johnson, Steve wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I agree. One of the problems in starting out in this business of building is
> knowing what questions to ask. I have learned a lot from others who have gone
> ahead.
>
> Steve Johnson
>
> waiting for the RV-8
> spjohnson(at)mmm.com
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> From: Bob Skinner on Fri, Mar 29, 1996 8:48 AM
> Subject: RV-List: RV list demise?
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I sure miss the old RV-list. I guess we did get the traffic cut down, huh?
> Now, I'll only have to check my E-mail every 4-5 days. Where do I send the
> flowers? Can we put the list back how it was? It was pretty easy to delete
> uninteresting items. Also, on the old list, we could tell if a question got
> answered and if so, choose not to respond. The way the list is set up now,
> we may miss some good ideas if responders forget to CC: or if they consider
> their reply "unworthy" and choose not to CC. I enjoyed the friendly banter
> and free flowing exchange of ideas. It seems that previous posters are now
> shy and are concerned about incurring the wrath of a few listers.
> How about it? Can we go back to being the "happy RV family" that we once
> were. As Rodney said: "Can't we, can't we all just get along?"
I agree as well. Part of the education value of this list is making
sure a nugget does not get away. As a new builder, sometimesw it's hard
to recognize a nugget and the only dumb question I ever heard of was the
one not asked. This list is invaluable as it is and even more valuable
the way it was.
Thanks all you folks that have gone ahead of us new guys.
Gary Tree
Empenage on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Taylor <gmt(at)iinet.net.au> |
On Sat, 30 Mar 1996, chester razer wrote:
> Hey Builders, I've noticed some of you all have been attaching URS's
> to your messages with photo's of your projects. I think that idea is
> great and I'm visiting every one. Wish we could get more picts of
> finished and unfinished projects on the net.
Not such a great idea for many - HUGE chunks of bandwidth used and paid
for by many by volume. Better to see if they can go on a www page, John
Hovans being the best IMHO.
Graham Taylor
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris.Brooks" <1gatto(at)cdmnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting Ailerons |
>
>Unfortunately, I think the fellow who mangled his aileron skin was
>probably doing the skin-to-spar rivets. This is IMHO the toughest rivet
>job on the airplane so far. (havn't built fuse yet) You've got thin skin,
>limited access for the bucking bar (wear long sleeves or plan on
>removing .010 " of skin off your forearms), you are bucking totally
>blind, and due to the angle of the spar flange, its hard to get the
>bucking bar perpendicular to the rivet. You can't use the backrivet set
>for this; it's gun and bucking bar all the way.
>
>Curt Reimer
>
I DID backrivet my aileron skin-to-spar rivets. I blocked my bucking bar
high enough for the clecoes to hang over on each side so I could rivet about
3 holes at a time. I used a C-yoke in the rivet gun to get around the spar
flange with a 1/8" cupped set to set the shop heads. It helps to use a block
of wood to hold the bottom aileron skin away from the spar to reach in and
rivet the top. I used this same method for riveting the top skins of the
flaps and my skin-to-spar rivets are as smooth as my skin-to-stiffener
rivets. I got my C-yoke surplus at OSH cheap but U.S. Industrial has them in
their catalog for $58.
Chris Brooks, RV-6
1gatto(at)cdmnet.com
Working on the 2nd Wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
Uncle Matt:
I'm not so sure I like the laq thinner on the plexi.... get one of those
grease pencils and use it to mark the canpoy for cutting. I sometimes use 1"
wide masking tape and mark on it. Seems to show up better than clear plexi to
these eyes..
Haven't flown my bird yet, so I haven't seen the FuelScan do it's thing yet,
altho the boot-up is a neat light show!
Check six!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Timothy W. Whitman" <71610.2013(at)compuserve.com> |
Thought I'd say I'm new to the list and am putting seat floors into my RV-6A
here in Hamilton MA. I started by helping Dana Axlerod finish the second of his
-6's a couple of years ago, and bought my empennage kit in November '94. I just
ordered the finish kit, and am agonizing about engine purchase this sumer.
If anyone has first hand info on the Grand Rapids engine instrumentation unit
I'd like to hear. The press has good things to say about it , but actual
operation refs were sparse or missing. I intend to put it and a Rocky Mountain
Microencoder (which I observed in Dana's second plane) in the panel next
winter.
Thanks.
Tim Whitman RV#23516
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Spinner - illogic/logic |
Aerodynamically, the spinner should be mounted to the backplate so the nose of
the spinner is
centered during rotate.
However, all of the vibration loads and aircraft g loads are going to cause the
spinner to flex the
backplate. Cyclic loads = fatigue cracks.
Structurally, the spinner nose should be offset from the center of rotate so the
rotate loads the
spinner and backplate in one direction all of the time the engine is running.
Watching the spinner mounted this way, the spinner looks like its wobbling while
its running. If
the centripetal force is larger than the vibration forces and g loads, it is
always loading it in one
direction only.
BTW, no one responded to my previous question about the airflow direction at the
inlet. Either no one has had time to put a drop of oil on the lower inlet
surface to see that it goes out of the inlet. or everyone believes that air can
only enter an air inlet. On my Lycoming, I had an oil cooler (which had a pin
hole leak) mounted in front of the left cylinder, and observed the oil drop
moving out of the inlet.
A glasair builder is putting is building a Lopresti style (round) inlet into his
cowl, because he
found that a large volume of air was flowing out of the inlet at the spinner
side wall.
Tracy Saylor (RV-6) has tried this also, but he wasn't satisfied with the
results the last time I talked with him.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Betty Blanton <75472.372(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: F-629 question |
Regarding the F-629,
I too have noticed the mismatch of parts where the F-629 flange does not leave
enough material to put rivets through next to the hole in the F-606 bulkhead. My
plan is to cut the flange off and relocate it to the outboard (away from the
F-606 hole) side.
Stan Blanton
RV-6 fuselage skeleton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Rod Bearing Cutouts |
> How much area did you take out of the elevator rod end bearing cutouts
This is an area where I wish I'd had Frank's instructions
earlier. I really like the look of the "reduced opening"
elevator cutouts. It's primarily a cosmetic item, so no
big deal either way. The drawback is that you do have to crawl
underneath to get the bolts in and out with this method, as
well as to get a good preflight look at them.
Another cosmetic tip I don't know if Frank mentions is to make the
radiuses relatively large on the elevator and rudder cutouts, as
opposed to using a 1/8" drill bit (like I did). If you go with a 1/4"
up to 1/2" dia. it looks much nicer. Use a step drill to make the
corner radiuses, then cut between the holes.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | RV-6 Elevator Trim Tab Question |
Hi Folks,
Am I dreaming when I think I saw a recent change in the way the
elevator trim tab is installed? I'm not talking about the doubler on
the corner where the horn is installed. I've got the info on that.
Also, I need to say that I am installing the electric servo for the
trim tab. I think the change might have had to do with that.
If anyone could help me with any info, I'd be grateful.
Best regards, Bill
--
___ _____________________________
\ \ _ _ / /
\ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \
X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) /
o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \
\__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com /
\____________________________\
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Baines <bill(at)sfu.ca> |
| Subject: | Dimpling opinions? |
I think this was discussed recently, but I thought I'd pose the question,
because I wasn't reading my mail regularly and I deleted hundreds of
messages without digesting all the contents...
I have both wings in the jigs, and have only one more skin to drill before
everything comes apart for final deburring, dimpling, priming and the real
noise (rivet gun) starts. I would like to solicite (sp?) opinions from the
list re the finer art of dimpling these heavier (heavier than empenage) skins.
I machine countersunk the HS, and it went well, but after the list began
discussing the strength issues re countersink vs dimpling (about a year ago)
I decided to dimple the rest.
While doing the empenage control surfaces (very thin skins), I did some
testing, and found that dimpling the skin and the structure at the same time
did not produce as nice a looking rivet as dimpling them seperately. This is
contrary to my expectations -- but I have had lots of complements on the
finished product.
I would appreciate any comments. I planned to use the Avery arm on the big
skins, and the avery (strong arm) squeezer on the ribs and spars. I noticed
someone on the list a few days ago commenting that 3 or 4 small hits with
the hammer produced better results than 1 big hit. ANy other advice?
Thanks ... and of course I'll summarize if appropriate.
Bill...
RV-4
--
Bill Baines bill(at)sfu.ca
Home/Bus: 604-535-2709 | VE7FML
Fax/Job: 604-533-0618 |
Pager: 604-680-9072 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling opinions? |
I would like to solicite (sp?) opinions from the
> list re the finer art of dimpling these heavier (heavier than empenage) skins.
>
Solicit, no "e", just like potato.
Some general rules about dimpling, assuming that you are using
the Avery "C" tool;
> Under dimpling will cause a depression around the hole due to
stress left in the metal.
> Over dimpling will cause a depression around the hole due to
stretching the metal.
> Making the dimple with one wack will cause a depression around
the hole. I don't know why, but it does.
> Making the dimple with 7-8 light taps with an 8 Oz hammer will
make almost perfect dimples. The sound will change as you
complete the dimple. It goes kinna' like this; tack, tack,
tack, tack, tack, tink, tank. You may want to add one more
"tank" if any depression is still around the dimple, just don't
over do it. 4 taps will make a pretty good dimple, but 8 will
make a perfect one. This doesn't take much longer than any
other method and the results are worth the one or two seconds
extra per hole.
> When the dimple is complete, there will be a small ring left
by the dimple dies. If you don't get an even circle around the
hole there is something wrong. A cresent moon would be an
extreme version of this.
Chris
>
> I would appreciate any comments. I planned to use the Avery arm on the big
> skins, and the avery (strong arm) squeezer on the ribs and spars. I noticed
> someone on the list a few days ago commenting that 3 or 4 small hits with
> the hammer produced better results than 1 big hit. ANy other advice?
>
> Thanks ... and of course I'll summarize if appropriate.
>
> Bill...
> RV-4
> --
> Bill Baines bill(at)sfu.ca
> Home/Bus: 604-535-2709 | VE7FML
> Fax/Job: 604-533-0618 |
> Pager: 604-680-9072 |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What's the deal with the RV-3 |
>Mike Asked:
>I'm still in the research and planning stages while I wait for the RV8
>kits to become available. I'm curious, though, about the RV-3. Why is
>it that the info pack downplays what looks like the hottest (and
>definitely most affordable) RV? None of the easy-build options like
>spar or skin drilling are offered, nor are the options like electronic
>trims and such.
>I probably am still going to decide on having a second seat, but the
>cost savings and simplicity of the 3 are appealing. So what's the story
>with these? Is the kit less advanced (and therefore harder to build)?
>Are they harder to fly? Any opinions welcome.
IMHO, Van is a very good businessman.
Van isn't selling enough RV-3's to warrant the cost to incorporate changes.
The changes are being developed for his hottest seller, the RV-6/6A.
>From what I have read in comparing the RV-3, RV-4 and RV-6, the performance and
handling of the RV-3 is better than the others. I don't know from my own
experience.
The kit has been less developed than the -6. However, after the -4 kit was
finished, Van incorporated the RV-4 changes into the RV-3 kit.
The biggest advantage of the RV-3 is that it is possible to get great
performance with it using the cheapest Lycooming available, the O-290.
I matched the performance with my RV-3 and the O-290-G to a RV-3 (1986 EAA
Oshkosh Outstanding Workmanship Award winner) with an IO-320. He had more
invested in his engine than I had in my completed airplane.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Tree <grtree(at)itis.com> |
Hi Gang,
I thought I might take a chance and see if I could get my first ride in
an RV-6 since I just ordered a tail kit. I will be in the Atlanta Ga.
area over easter weekend and was thinking that this might be a good
excuse for someone to go flying :^) I don't want to be too forward but
if you never ask..... :^(
You can email me @ grtree(at)itis.com
or call 608-831-3256
Thanks for the indulgence,
Gary Tree
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Smith, Hal" <smith1h(at)macsmtpgw.spring-branch.isd.tenet.edu> |
smithh@spring-brach.isd.tenet.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: F-629 question |
>I'm sitting here looking at the RV-6 plans page showing how the F-628,
>629, and 630 attach the the F606 bulkhead, and there is something I don't
>understand.
>
>The F-606 rear baggage bulkhead has a 1-1/8-inch wide hole in the bottom
>center for the elevator pushtube. sheet 33 shows that the F-629 rib
>mounts 1 inch outboard from the aircraft ceneterline. The forward flange
>of that rib faces inboard. That flange is 5/8-inch wide. Therefore the
>outboard 3/16 of the pushtube hole on that side is covered by the forward
>flange of F-629. Furthermore, you can't rivet the f-629 flange to the
>f606 bulkhead and maintain edge distance in that area.
>
>What gives?
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>
>
Dave,
I ended up notching out the 629 flange where it overlaped the pushtube hole.
I had to change the rivet pattern to get three rivets in. I am not at home,
so I can't see how my edge distance worked out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KHarrill(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rod Bearing Cutouts |
Question on 3/28/96:
How much area did you take out of the elevator rod end bearing cutouts.
Frank Justice's manual recommends cutting out the bottom portion to
full open and only a small opening on top. Has anyone done this, or do
you cut down to the spar flange on both sides. How about the rudder??
Ed,
I stopped the cutout about 1/2" from the spar on the topside of my
elevators. I tried to make the cutout even smaller but later the skin made
contact with the hinge brackets before the specified elevator travel. I made
the radius of the corners of the cutout about 5/8" on the topside and it
looks real nice. I built the rudder before having a copy of Frank's plans,
so it is build according to Van's.
Hope this helps,
Ken Harrill
RV - 6 spars
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling opinions? |
>I think this was discussed recently, but I thought I'd pose the question,
>because I wasn't reading my mail regularly and I deleted hundreds of
>messages without digesting all the contents...
>
>I have both wings in the jigs, and have only one more skin to drill before
>everything comes apart for final deburring, dimpling, priming and the real
>noise (rivet gun) starts. I would like to solicite (sp?) opinions from the
>list re the finer art of dimpling these heavier (heavier than empenage) skins.
>
>I machine countersunk the HS, and it went well, but after the list began
>discussing the strength issues re countersink vs dimpling (about a year ago)
>I decided to dimple the rest.
>
>While doing the empenage control surfaces (very thin skins), I did some
>testing, and found that dimpling the skin and the structure at the same time
>did not produce as nice a looking rivet as dimpling them seperately. This is
>contrary to my expectations -- but I have had lots of complements on the
>finished product.
>
>I would appreciate any comments. I planned to use the Avery arm on the big
>skins, and the avery (strong arm) squeezer on the ribs and spars. I noticed
>someone on the list a few days ago commenting that 3 or 4 small hits with
>the hammer produced better results than 1 big hit. ANy other advice?
>
>Thanks ... and of course I'll summarize if appropriate.
>
>Bill...
>RV-4
>--
>Bill Baines bill(at)sfu.ca
>Home/Bus: 604-535-2709 | VE7FML
>Fax/Job: 604-533-0618 |
>Pager: 604-680-9072 |
>
>
Bill,
I have been dimpleing away in prep for skinning the fuse. Before the recent
discussion on hammer sizes and number of hits, I didn't pay much atttention
to it. I have been using a standard finishing hammer (with eye and ear
protection) taping once and then one firmer tap. I recently bought a rubber
coated one pound dead blow hammer from Freight Harbor. I used this for
awile on the fuse skins and the results were fine with one good blow but I
didn't like the loss of feel associated with the rubber hammer. I am back
to the original method. You really only want to watch over hitting as this
will cause unsightly streatching around the dimple. I dimpled the heavy
bellypan yesterday and it came out great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Weeping Fuel Tanks |
'Listers -- Mike said...
>Just finished helping Dan Boudro attach his RV-4's wings at the
>airport. He had the fuel truck top off his tanks in 2 gallon
>increments so he could determine the accuracy of his gauges. One tank
>had one rivet at the leading edge (in the middle rib, of course) that
>leaked. We drained the fuel, and discussed remedies. The plan is to
>clean the area and smear some ProSeal over the offending rivet to
>seal the seep. I know this topic has been covered in the list with
>other methods mentioned, but I can't recall specifics. Can anyone
>relate any other method that they can recommend to fix this weeping
>rivet. Fixing the leak will stop Dan's weeping!
I heard of an interesting idea that you may want to at least
investigate further...the original source was Ken Scott at Van's so
you may want to follow up with him.
The idea is basically to empty the tank, and then somehow draw a mild
vacuum on the tank. Then, apply some sort of avgas impervious epoxy
to the offending rivet(s), and the vacuum, theoretically, will draw
the epoxy/glue/whatever into the leak, and voila, fixed (hopefully).
I think that there was a guy at Hillsboro that used this method, but
again, you'll want to f/u with Ken at Van's before taking my word for
it.
Cheers...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: F-629 question |
Yes you have to notch out part of the F-629 rib flange where the hole
is. I didn't think I was going to be able to get rivets in beside
there afterwards, but in fact I was able to do so, real close to
the rib web. I did start to put a flange on the other side
but found that that was partially opposite a baggage floor rib. You
could probably work it so that the rib rivets went through both flanges,
or use flush rivets on one side or the other or something.
But as I said, I was able to squeeze some rivets in next to the
cut-out after all, so I scrapped the extra flange.
Actually though even if all you can do is get some rivets above
and below the hole, I'll bet that would be adequate.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> I'm sitting here looking at the RV-6 plans page showing how the F-628,
> 629, and 630 attach the the F606 bulkhead, and there is something I don't
> understand.
>
> The F-606 rear baggage bulkhead has a 1-1/8-inch wide hole in the bottom
> center for the elevator pushtube. sheet 33 shows that the F-629 rib
> mounts 1 inch outboard from the aircraft ceneterline. The forward flange
> of that rib faces inboard. That flange is 5/8-inch wide. Therefore the
> outboard 3/16 of the pushtube hole on that side is covered by the forward
> flange of F-629. Furthermore, you can't rivet the f-629 flange to the
> f606 bulkhead and maintain edge distance in that area.
>
> What gives?
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> rv-6 sn 23744
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Weeping Fuel Tank Rivets |
>Just finished helping Dan Boudro attach his RV-4's wings at the airport.
>He had the fuel truck top off his tanks in 2 gallon increments so he
>could determine the accuracy of his gauges. One tank had one rivet at the
>leading edge (in the middle rib, of course) that leaked. We drained the
>fuel, and discussed remedies. The plan is to clean the area and smear
>some ProSeal over the offending rivet to seal the seep. I know this topic
>has been covered in the list with other methods mentioned, but I can't
>recall specifics. Can anyone relate any other method that they can
>recommend to fix this weeping rivet. Fixing the leak will stop Dan's
>weeping!
>
>Mike Kukulski (kukulski(at)indirect.com)
>RV-4 N96MK, ready to attach wings
Mike,
Haven't tried it myself, but .... others (can't remember who) have
put a slight suction on the tank, and applied 'slosh' to the _outside_ and
allowed it to get sucked into the leaky spot.
Sounds to me like it should work. I mentioned it to a Glasair
builder, and he said they use a similar (but with epoxy) method to seal
leaks in their tanks. Since your leak is only a 'weep', slosh actually
inside the "hole" may be better than Pro-Seal on the outside of the hole.
... hope this helps .... Gil Alexander
RV6A, #20701 ... still doing stuff inside the cockpit ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcahoon(at)intellinet.com (David Cahoon) |
My RV-4 project is standing on its tires. Tail finished, wings built but for
top skin, fuel tanks built but not sealed, inst. panel in and finished, boot
cowl finished, installed canopy hinge and frame yesterday. I'm an attorney
in a 10 person firm in Jonesboro, Arkansas. I practice insurance and
products liability defense law. Married with 3 children. Age 45. CFI and
CFIG. Love to fly sailplanes. Own an Ka-6 for this!
Getting good support from local EAA CHAPTER and good friends. I'll finish
when I finish. Glad to hear of this internet group. Go fly -dwc->
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling opinions? |
> I have both wings in the jigs, and have only one more skin to drill before
> everything comes apart for final deburring, dimpling, priming and the real
> noise (rivet gun) starts. I would like to solicite (sp?) opinions from the
> list re the finer art of dimpling these heavier (heavier than empenage) skins.
Use the avery arbor for the skins, a squeezer for the ribs.
The wing skins aren't any thicker than the empenage (the HS and
VS skins are .032, same as the inboard wing skins). Three whacks
with a 16 oz hammer seems to work fine for me, but you should experiment --
check the dimple by looking across it with a light reflecting from
the other side, and see if there's any significant deformation
beyond the dimple -- if there is you probably under-dimpled and need
to whack it again.
> When the dimple is complete, there will be a small ring left
by the dimple dies. If you don't get an even circle around the
hole there is something wrong. A cresent moon would be an
extreme version of this.
Just to clarify -- the ring is on the BACK side -- the side
that has the female dimple die.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Osgood <74774.54(at)compuserve.com> |
I am starting on my wings and will need fuel senders in the near future. I am
looking for
recommendations. Vans sells them for $18.00 each but are these the best choice
and can
they be used with different gauges?
Any help always appreciated.
Rick (yeah, it stopped snowing)
MN -RV6A wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV News Group |
>Mostly a bunch of
>Zoom bashing and plastic talk
Actually, it seems like Zoom has disappeared (haven't heard from him lately).
Plastic stuff is not that bad (please don't throw eggs at me), just more
sticky. Not to pat myself on the back or anything (OK, so maybe I am), to
anyone going to the Phoenix 500 air races this weekend, look for the Glasir
III that is being flown by Chip Beck in the airshow. I built the wing (except
for main gear installation), tail surfaces (including extended rudder and
ventral fin), and a lot of the basic fuselage shell construction on the
aircraft.
It should be a good show.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
>Uncle Matt:
>I'm not so sure I like the laq thinner on the plexi....
I'm not sure about it either .....
I had a similar problem with 1 year old masking tape stuck on a
sailplane canopy. One of the US canopy makers recommended using "Rubbing
Alcohol" from the drug store. It's much milder than lacquer thinner, and
more consistent in content. As you found out, it only softens the hardened
tape layer, but the soft stuff can then be gently rubbed off.
Apparently there is no fixed formula for Lacquer Thinner between
vendors (just look how many versions just one vendor DuPont sells), so what
worked for you might be _real_ bad for someone else with a different
brand/type of thinner.
I would really use the safer Rubbing Alcohol (Diluted Isopropyl
Alcohol, I think) next time.
... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander
RV6A, #20701 ... cockpit stuff ...
>get one of those
>grease pencils and use it to mark the canpoy for cutting. I sometimes use 1"
>wide masking tape and mark on it. Seems to show up better than clear plexi to
>these eyes..
>Haven't flown my bird yet, so I haven't seen the FuelScan do it's thing yet,
>altho the boot-up is a neat light show!
>Check six!
>Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer |
A while back, Fred Stucklen commented...
>My kit didn't have pre-drilled skins, so I made my own. I used
>drafting Mylar, cut to the exact skin dimensions. This was laid over
>the frame, which was previously marked for all rivet locations. I
>used scotch tape to hold the mylar in place. The rivit hole locations
>were then transferred to the mylar. The mylar is removed from the
>frame, and placed over the skin on a flat bench. 1/16th holes are
>drilled in all locations. The skin is then deburred, and placed back
>onto the frame. Sight through the 1/16th holes to assure you have the
>proper frame alignment and drill/cleco as usual. This method can be
>used throughout the whole aircraft.
I took Fred at his word, and gave this a try on the first side of my
horizontonal stabilizer, with EXCELLENT results. I was lucky enough
to get access to about 30' of drafting mylar free, through a supplier
to our company that has some post dated stock on his shelf.
I got both sides of one of the HS skins drilled yesterday, and managed
to get the drill holes and the markings on the underlying skeleton
pretty much perfectly alinged.
A couple of "innovations" that might be useful to others that are
about to head down this road...
1) Before riveting the HS skeleton, I assembled the root and middle
ribs, and then traced around these, and the tip rib, onto some 1/2"
particle board. I then used these outlines to make airfoil shaped
clamps. I preferred this approach to the 'C' shaped clamps suggested
in the manual. They hold the skin very tight on the skeleton, and
making drilling into the skeleton an absolute breeze.
2) Before trial fitting the skin for the first time, I covered the
mating surfaces of the HS skeleton with masking tape. This not only
protects the skeleton and the skin, but also is where I put the rivet
location marks. I was able to try several different layouts by simply
pulling the tape off and starting again.
Hope this helps, and thanx to Fred for the original tip...the HS looks
cool with all those cleco's in it!
Cheers...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net> |
| Subject: | West Virginia RVers |
I'll be in Beckley West Virginia next tuesday and wednesday, I'd like
to stop in and visit a builder or take a look at a finished product.
chet razer
________________________________________________________________________________
The best fuel level indication was the old J-3 cub bent wire. It always
worked and gave an accurate fuel level as long as you knew how much fuel was
in the tank when the bend in the wire hit the top of the gas cap. The same is
pretty much true for the basic indicator setup that Van sells. Nothing fancy
but it does depend on electrical power for the gages. So far it has been
trouble free for 200 hours on my RV-6A.
Calibration is the key to any of these gages. My senders are in different
bays because I have an inverted flop tube in one tank. So I poured five
gallons in each tank and marked the position on the gage needles. That is all
I have to know for fuel indication as it tells me that I should be looking
for a refueling stop, soon! The other calibration is removing the fuel cap
and looking in the tank, prior to each flight. That way I know approximately
how much fuel is in the tank. The only way I know for sure how much fuel is
on board is when the tanks are full. Then I know I have 3.5 hours of flight
time at 2300 rpm and 22.5 inches of MP. This gives me at least 30 minutes of
fuel left. The gages verify this by the position relative to the five gallon
mark. Each aircraft has to work out these variables. I also have a constant
speed prop mounted on a Lyc 0-360.
My basic engine instrument is a Vision Microsystems VM 1000 without the fuel
quantity indication. However, the standard VM 1000 has fuel flow, fuel
remaining, time remaining at present fuel burn and fuel added features. All
this helps but the important part is the pilot as he figures out from all of
the above, when it is time to refuel. Nothing beats fuel in the tank! Looking
in the tank is the absolute best way to figure your flight. It should be
possible to mark, from the fuel tank opening, the level of each five gallons
on the fuel tank bottom and side. I've never tried this but it does seem
feasible.
Hope this helps.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: F-629 question |
Dave,
I had already made a scale drawing in MacDraw Pro, and concluded
that this area is actually impossible to build correctly to the required
edge distances (Van must have drawn this bit up late at night, or it was
done by committee ... ^:)
I can send anyone a copy if you can read this Mac format ("me too"
requests sent privately please!).
If I reach local builders before they do this section, I have 3
changes that can make this assembly easier to rivet to-gether, and to meet
all edge distances.
1. Cut off the rear flange of both F-627L and F-627R. Rivet on a new
flange (3/4 by 3/4 by 0.032 is OK) so that the flanges now face outwards.
Use the same number of rivets shown that hold the flange to the F-606
bulkhead. This also helps the consistent problem of these two parts being
too long as provided in the kit.
2. Cut off the flange from the front end of the F-629 horizontal stiffener,
and also add a new flange (as in 1) facing outwards. This also makes this
part easier to fit lengthwise.
3. Make a new F630 plate 5.5 inches wide in the area were it mates directly
against the F-606 bulkhead. Note that the portion prodruding above the
F-606 is offset to the left to pick up the already outward facing flange of
F-628 vertical stiffener. This will make it wide enough to pick up the now
outeard facing flanges of F-627L&R, tying the structure to-gether as
designed.
While I didn't do the above items, I'm not really happy with how
this area came out, and now reccommend the above changes to all new
builders. It also has the advantage of being easier to rivet (better
access), requires less precise tolerances, meets all edge distances. It's
also easy to implement.
Several RV6s I have seen have had the center of the F-606 bulkhead
pushed out of alignment (slightly bowed to the rear) due to length problems
of the parts described above. In the case I saw this weekend, it even put
a little bow into the main F-604 bulkhead (via a bow in F-605), wich would
have caused some wing sweep back if not corrected. Put a straight edge
frequently on the front face of F-604 to make sure it's not being pushed
out of alignment during the fuselage framing stage. The frame is pretty
'jiggly' until skinned, and then any misalignments are set permanently.
If other RV6 builders past that stage agree this is a good fix
(please agree via private e-mail), I'll draw up a scale drawing of the
change, convert it to a .gif file and send it to John Hovan (if he wants
it, of course). I'll also send a copy to Van's.
... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander
RV6A, #20701
Tech. Counselor, EAA Chapter 40
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
>I'm sitting here looking at the RV-6 plans page showing how the F-628,
>629, and 630 attach the the F606 bulkhead, and there is something I don't
>understand.
>
>The F-606 rear baggage bulkhead has a 1-1/8-inch wide hole in the bottom
>center for the elevator pushtube. sheet 33 shows that the F-629 rib
>mounts 1 inch outboard from the aircraft ceneterline. The forward flange
>of that rib faces inboard. That flange is 5/8-inch wide. Therefore the
>outboard 3/16 of the pushtube hole on that side is covered by the forward
>flange of F-629. Furthermore, you can't rivet the f-629 flange to the
>f606 bulkhead and maintain edge distance in that area.
>
>What gives?
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling opinions? |
I use a "modified Chris" approach. Two light taps to set the male die into
the hole and insure it's square to the skin. Then two or three harder taps
until I get the "tank". I then examine the circle. Half moon is usually
caused by the skin sitting at some angle to the Avery tool or too much haste.
I quick hard shot could cause the half moon also.
Randall, I always get the ring on the top/male side. I never really looked
underneath at for a ring...
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV News Group |
>Mostly a bunch of
>Zoom bashing and plastic talk
Actually, it seems like Zoom has disappeared (haven't heard from him lately).
Plastic stuff is not that bad (please don't throw eggs at me), just more
sticky. Not to pat myself on the back or anything (OK, so maybe I am), to
anyone going to the Phoenix 500 air races this weekend, look for the Glasir
III that is being flown by Chip Beck in the airshow. I built the wing (except
for main gear installation), tail surfaces (including extended rudder and
ventral fin), and a lot of the basic fuselage shell construction on the
aircraft.
It should be a good show.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | HS Riveting OOPS! |
My wife and I riveted and buck the skins onto our RV6A HS last saturday. The
manual instructed us to start riveting with the top side skin. We riveted the
front spar outboard and then began riveting the HS-607 Center Rib near the
leading edge. We were doing great until we had to rivet the upper top rivet
next to the leading edge. My wife, bless her heart had the hard part of bucking
and I was running the gun. I heard an unusal sound of metal hitting metal and
notice we had a depression or crease about the size of a nickel just right of
the rivet hole. We were devastated. To no avail, I couldn't smooth the skin
back into shape. I comtemplated removing all the rivets we had thus far put in
and re-order a new skin but decided the blemish should not pose a structural
problem but just my pride. We decided that the bucking bar must had not been
squared with the stem of the rivet and was partially touching the skin at
impact. We went ahead and completed riveting both skins. Do you think we made
a good decision to go ahead and finish or should I consider rebuilding the HS?
Is is possible to repair the depression or make it look less sightly? Would
appreciate any suggestions. Thanks in advance
Ron Caldwell
RV6A HS completed?? - Working on VS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
Masking tape can be removed with any light oil. Put it on and let
it soak over night. Wipe in the morning. Simple, safe.
Chris
>
> >Uncle Matt:
> >I'm not so sure I like the laq thinner on the plexi....
>
> I'm not sure about it either .....
>
> I had a similar problem with 1 year old masking tape stuck on a
> sailplane canopy. One of the US canopy makers recommended using "Rubbing
> Alcohol" from the drug store. It's much milder than lacquer thinner, and
> more consistent in content. As you found out, it only softens the hardened
> tape layer, but the soft stuff can then be gently rubbed off.
>
> Apparently there is no fixed formula for Lacquer Thinner between
> vendors (just look how many versions just one vendor DuPont sells), so what
> worked for you might be _real_ bad for someone else with a different
> brand/type of thinner.
>
> I would really use the safer Rubbing Alcohol (Diluted Isopropyl
> Alcohol, I think) next time.
>
> ... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander
>
> RV6A, #20701 ... cockpit stuff ...
>
>
> >get one of those
> >grease pencils and use it to mark the canpoy for cutting. I sometimes use 1"
> >wide masking tape and mark on it. Seems to show up better than clear plexi to
> >these eyes..
> >Haven't flown my bird yet, so I haven't seen the FuelScan do it's thing yet,
> >altho the boot-up is a neat light show!
> >Check six!
> >Mark
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Tree <grtree(at)itis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project Summary & New Member |
aol.com!MikeT(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> Project summary for a new member on the 'list'. Mike Talley (miket(at)aol.com)
> WA7RQZ retired from Boeing after 36 years in Electrical and CAD on various
> commercial and military programs. Member of EAA Chapter 818. Live in
> Arlington, WA - yes Stoddard Hamilton is 10 minutes away but I decided on the
> RV after a demo ride at the factory last fall. As a former C-172 owner the
> speed of the RV got me! I attended the workshop in Feb. at Van's and brought
> home a tail kit for the RV-6. For any like me who haven't had much experience
> with sheet metal work I highly recommend the workshop. Am in the process of
> assembling the horiz stab skeleton. Decided to alodine and prime (PPG Ditzler
> 2 part epoxy) all parts and compiled a 'process spec' from PPG spec sheets to
> summarize the processes and stuff needed. Happy to share this is anyone is
> interested. While waiting to get started I got a 'boiler' wiring diagram,
> wire list and equipment list started. Also put the RV-6 instrument panel in
> CAD and created models for many instruments and avionics to use in "pin the
> instrument on the panel" study to start thinking about what I'll do when the
> time comes for that. If anyone is interested in any of this let me know. I
> have George's tapes for the tail but the new pre punched kit takes out a lot
> of the "fun" shown in the tapes. I fins that watching the tape as well as
> going over the words from Vans helps complete the picture as to what I need
> to do next.
Mike,
I am interested in your CAD drawings. Could you email me at
grtree(at)itis.com or call me 608-831-3256
Thanks,
Gary Tree
Empennage on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
John Pleaslee
| Subject: | Re: RV-3 Tail Fairings |
>From: Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com>
>It looks as though the tail of your airplane is different than
>standard -3s. I notice a strake and it looks as though the vertical
>stab height is greater. Is that true? If so, did the LOM engine have
>something to do with the tail change?
Good call Terry.
The strake, or small ventral fin at the front of the vertical stabilizer, is to
fill the hole in the
fiberglass fairing. (The fiberglass tail intersection fairing hasn't fit
properly since at least 1987.) I
just cut off the portion of the fairing that didn't fit, and added in a sheet
metal filler.
The vertical stabilizer cap is 10 inchs tall so the Sport Aircraft Model 2 COM
antenna will fit
inside. I have a Sport Aircraft Model 1 NAV antenna in the right wing tip.
Both antennas are
shown in the Aircraft Spruse Catalog. I know they work very well, but I don't
know how well
Van's antenna's work.
Since the pictures was taken, the white Loran C antenna behind the canopy has
been removed for a
GPS antenna mounted under the canopy. The only antenna outside the aircraft is
the Mode C
transponder antenna in the forward floor pan.
None of the tail changes were a result of the LOM engine installation. I wanted
to fly my RV-3
without the vertical stab antenna cap, but it was taking too long to get the
engine package completed
prior to Oshkosh, last year.
(I still didn't make Oshkosh, but it was a result of an engine miss caused by
the Westach electric
tach. (The Westach rep. said he had never heard of such a problem. He said,
either the engine started and
run, or the engine wouldn't start. I wonder how many other airplanes with a
Westach tach have an
engine miss only in the air near redline RPM??))
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel indication |
I had the Rocky Mt. Micro Monitor on my Sea Hawker and used the fuel flow
sensor input to the instrument. This was the most accurate way to measure
fuel use. I had guages but they were only a general indication of the level
of fuel. The Micro Monitor was incredibly accurate. When it said that I had
burned 10.6 gallons of fuel, it took exactly 10.6 gallons to refill it. In
all the time I had the aircraft, it was never off by even one tenth of a
gallon, no matter how long I flew. I plan to use the same system in my RV.
I will have fuel guages but will use the Micro Monitor as a primary
indication of fuel use, fuel remaining, and endurance. The system allows you
to reset to full at the touch of a button or add any amount short of full if
you just put a partial fuel load on. It also has a built-in timer to remind
you to change tanks. I love it.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HS Riveting OOPS! |
That's why God invented Bondo. Make the blemish a dent and rough it up with
sandpaper. Fill with Bondo and sand smooth. After painting, nobody will be
able to tell what you did. No structural problem will result.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: HS Riveting OOPS! |
>My wife and I riveted and buck the skins onto our RV6A HS last saturday. The
>manual instructed us to start riveting with the top side skin. We riveted the
>front spar outboard and then began riveting the HS-607 Center Rib near the
>leading edge. We were doing great until we had to rivet the upper top rivet
>next to the leading edge. My wife, bless her heart had the hard part of
bucking
>and I was running the gun. I heard an unusal sound of metal hitting metal and
>notice we had a depression or crease about the size of a nickel just right of
>the rivet hole. We were devastated. To no avail, I couldn't smooth the skin
>back into shape. I comtemplated removing all the rivets we had thus far put in
>and re-order a new skin but decided the blemish should not pose a structural
>problem but just my pride. We decided that the bucking bar must had not been
>squared with the stem of the rivet and was partially touching the skin at
>impact. We went ahead and completed riveting both skins. Do you think we made
>a good decision to go ahead and finish or should I consider rebuilding the HS?
>Is is possible to repair the depression or make it look less sightly? Would
>appreciate any suggestions. Thanks in advance
>
>Ron Caldwell
>RV6A HS completed?? - Working on VS
>
If the skin isn't cracked my feeling is that you should be able to use
'bondo' and fill the depression. I had the same problem with the top skin
on the left wing. My bucker and I had riveted most of the skin and decided
to take a break. After returning to work we put the next rivet in, he put
the bucking bar on the rivet and I 'fired' the gun. I realized almost
instantly that something was wrong, it didn't sound right and when I looked
under the rivet set I found that he had been on the wrong rivet and I now
had a small dent and cut in the skin. After contemplating removing the
entire skin I decided to put a doubler on the inside of the wing skin
covering the dented and split area. I've been watching it for 6 years now
and it looks just fine. Whenever anyone asks what those extra rivets are
for I just grin and say, 'just a minor modification'. I should have used
some bondo and just patched it but, to tell the truth, the thought never
occurred to me at the time.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
aol.com!Mlfred(at)matronics.com
| From: | KingD(at)direct.ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
> I had a similar problem with 1 year old masking tape stuck on a
>sailplane canopy. One of the US canopy makers recommended using "Rubbing
>Alcohol" from the drug store. It's much milder than lacquer thinner, and
>more consistent in content. As you found out, it only softens the hardened
>tape layer, but the soft stuff can then be gently rubbed off.
>
> ... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander
>
>>get one of those
>>grease pencils and use it to mark the canpoy for cutting. I sometimes use 1"
>>wide masking tape and mark on it. Seems to show up better than clear plexi to
>>these eyes..
>>Haven't flown my bird yet, so I haven't seen the FuelScan do it's thing yet,
>>altho the boot-up is a neat light show!
>>Check six!
>>Mark
One thing that works quite well and wont harm the plexi is the Citrus extract
cleaners. Other than a rather overpowering orange smell if u overdo it nothing
will be harmed and the spraylac comes right off. A small bottle of it will do
a few canopys and you can leave it soak as long as you want to. Give it a try
it works well even on removing old masking tape glue thats hardened. The brand
name I used was called "Citra-sol"
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Coxon <raycoxon(at)spirit.com.au> |
| Subject: | Internet Address Change |
lindon(at)netwise.net.au, lyndal(at)canberra.DIALix.oz.au,
nmoffat(at)pcug.org.au, sutton(at)ozemail.com.au, Paulnw(at)ozemail.com.au,
jtopfer(at)ozemail.com.au, jroe(at)powerten.com.au, poss(at)orstom.rio.net,
rv-list(at)matronics.com, aus-soaring(at)internode.com.au,
76455.1602(at)compuserve.com, arw(at)ozemail.com.au
Hi There One and All,
Ray Coxon wishes to announce that he has moved his internet business from
Netinfo to Spirit Networks. The new E-Mail address is as above.
========================================
Ray Coxon
9 Menzie Place
Kambah ACT 2902
61 6 231 6400 home
61 6 231 5006 fax
015 263 282 mobile
raycoxon(at)netinfo.com.au
=======================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel senders |
Rick and the list:
On 1 Apr 1996, Rick Osgood wrote:
> I am starting on my wings and will need fuel senders in the near future. I am
> looking for
> recommendations. Vans sells them for $18.00 each but are these the best choice
> and can
> they be used with different gauges?
My original intention was to use one of the capacitance fuel senders in
each tank. There are three available:
1. Skysports.
2. ELectronics International
3. Vision Microsystems
If you are not familaer with the capacitance sytems, they are essentially
a long open tube with an eklement running down the center. As the tube
is filled with fuel, the electrical capacitance between the tube and the
center element changes. This change is refelcted in a guage that is
calibrated in gallons. You want this tube running from the top of the
tank to the bottom. ON the RV, the 'top' is the outboard top of the
tank, and the 'bottom' is the inboard bottom of the tank, so you would
need to run this tube diagonally accross the tank.
Both the Vision Microsystems and Electronics International senders use a
non-flexible tube. You would have some fabrication to do in order to
install them. The Skysports sender is bendable, and so could be
installed with less fabrication.
In the end, I decided it was just not worth it. After all, We've all
learned not to place too much reliance upon fuel gauges, and so most of
us us other means to more accurately determine how much fuel is left in
the tank. I went ahaead and installed the Stewart Warner senders from
Vans, and I'll probably hook them to the Electronics International guage
that is field calibratable. (sp?)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
fuselage in jig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
I want to thank everyone who responded to my plea for help and advice
concerning the interference between the fwd flange of the F629 rib and
the hole in the F606 bulkhead. While I think Gil Alexander's solution is
the best, I wanted to post the reply I received from Van's. It may be
less elegant, but I've carefully measured the edge distances, and it does
work:
The actual answer is this:
The flange of the rib that overhangs the hole that the pushrod
goes through is to be CUT AWAY to enlarge it to the original hole
dimension.... the F-630 doubler plate is in there to beef up this area
and so the flange of the baggage rib is of no consequence... tom
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | HS Riveting OOPS! |
Ron,
"size of a Nickel" ?? That sounds kind of large. I've got one of those on
the bottom left side of my HS but you need to feel it with your hand to
notice it. Re-check your pressure and move on to the VS. If you decide to
bondo it, you can do it later. If you decide to re-build it (unlikely), you
can do it later. You need to move forward and make progress. It may not
be as noticable six months from now.
Otherwise, I might suggest you buck your own rivets and let your wife run
the gun. This may help your marriage in the long run.
Good luck
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Uncle Matt's Tip ?1 - Marking Plexi Canopy.. |
>One thing that works quite well and wont harm the plexi is the Citrus extract
>cleaners. Other than a rather overpowering orange smell if u overdo it >nothing
>will be harmed and the spraylac comes right off. A small bottle of it >will do
>a few canopys and you can leave it soak as long as you want to. Give >it a try
>it works well even on removing old masking tape glue thats hardened. >The brand
>name I used was called "Citra-sol"
If you looking for another place to track down the citrus-based solvents, try
you local bicycle store. It's the weapon of choice for cleaning and degreasing
chains...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Uncle Matt's Tip ?1 - Marking Plexi Canopy.. (fwd) |
>
> If you looking for another place to track down the citrus-based solvents, try
> you local bicycle store. It's the weapon of choice for cleaning and degreasing
> chains...
>
> Terry in Calgary
> S/N 24414
> "Skinning Horizontal Stabilizer"
>
"Goo Gone" is a citrus based cleaner available at Home Depot stores.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the
very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives."
-B. Breathed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
I am looking for a Lycoming O-360. I noticed in Trade-A-Plane
that there are these two companies that are always advertising engines
for homebuilders: Don George and Dick Waters of Air Tek. I called
Don George and he told me he could not compete with Van's OEM price
for a new engine for the 360. The guy at Air Tek said he could put
one together for me in about thirty days. My question is does anyone
know about this guy? Any references or experiences? Thanks.
Cheryl Sanchez
csanchez(at)world.std.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weeping Fuel Tanks |
> The idea is basically to empty the tank, and then somehow draw a mild
> vacuum on the tank.
VERY _mild_ vacuum..... I would rig a piece of small diameter hose to the
vent tube, holding the end in my mouth as I applied the sealer and use lung
power for the vacuum... anything more and you risk tank damage...
Denny k8do(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
> had a similar problem with 1 year old masking tape stuck on a
>sailplane canopy. One of the US canopy makers recommended using "Rubbing
>Alcohol" from the drug store.
Similar problems with masking tape on auto paint jobs...
The best (and funniest) I saw used was peanut butter (creamy, not the chunky
:)... The peanut oils softened the tape adhesive like magic....
I suspect you could lick your canopy/fingers afterwards instead of washing...
Denny
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | HS Skin Drilling -- just one more thing! |
Yesterday, I got on and told of my adventures marking and drilling my
HS skins...there was one thing that I forgot to mention...one of the
advantages of drilling the skins on the bench on a flat surface, as
opposed to on the skeleton is that I was able to clamp a straightedge
to the skin, which could subsequently be used as a drill guide. You
need to exercise some caution for the rivets on the ribs though as
they appear to come out slightly curved when layed out flat on a
bench. You'll need to adjust you drill guide a couple of times to get
them right. I'm really please with how straight the rivet lines came
out...apparently, that's one of the things that really attracts
attention in that final judging at Oshkosh ;->
Of course, the down side is that my skins, with a little more
practice, will be about as half as good as any skin that was
pre-punched! :-) I know there are lots of unpunched skins out there,
though, and this may help.
Actually, I was thinking that the job of mating a prepunched skin to a
less than perfect skeleton must be pretty tricky.
Cheers...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Horizontal Stabilizer"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Sources? |
I know way to many people that have been burnt on AC engines. If
your don't want to buy new, get a run-out and DIY, or have it done
locally. You may want to stay involved in the process to make sure
you get what you pay for. I'm not saying that the guy you mentioned is
disreputable, but alot are. Don't take a chance, it's way to much
money and way to dangerous to take a chance on.
Chris
>
> I am looking for a Lycoming O-360. I noticed in Trade-A-Plane
> that there are these two companies that are always advertising engines
> for homebuilders: Don George and Dick Waters of Air Tek. I called
> Don George and he told me he could not compete with Van's OEM price
> for a new engine for the 360. The guy at Air Tek said he could put
> one together for me in about thirty days. My question is does anyone
> know about this guy? Any references or experiences? Thanks.
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
> csanchez(at)world.std.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Engine Sources? (fwd) |
The same question came up on the net a few months back.
At least one person said they bought an engine from them and they were happy.
I pointed out that I had talked to them once and they typically
put together engines for homebuilders with parts that are not yellow taged.
They said this limits their liability and reduces the cost.
From what I know, most FAA certified parts houses will only sell repair parts
and yellow tag them (or red tag if unservisable). So why settle for non-YT
parts?
Also, they appear to take any parts and will build up what ever you need.
This means they take basket case engines and make engines for you.
Is that what you want?
As someone else said today on the list, you can find a runout engine and rebuild
it yourself or have a local AC engine shop OH it. If you do it yourself you
will
know what you have. You can have all the parts OH and Yellow Tagged to new limits.
If you do not want to do it your self or with the help of a local A&P or IA
then find a good engine shop in your area and have them do a new limits MOH.
That way they will offer a warrenty on the work and that can be worth a lot
if something goes wrong with the rebuilt engine.
The new engines from Van's are a pretty good deal when you look at what it costs
to OH an engine and the price of the core and then you still have an engine
that has 2,000 hrs or more time on the cylinders and cases. Many of the
cylinders are cracked at OH and are welded up.
You can help this on your own OH if you buy new cylinders instead of chroming
the old ones.
Herman
>
> I am looking for a Lycoming O-360. I noticed in Trade-A-Plane
> that there are these two companies that are always advertising engines
> for homebuilders: Don George and Dick Waters of Air Tek. I called
> Don George and he told me he could not compete with Van's OEM price
> for a new engine for the 360. The guy at Air Tek said he could put
> one together for me in about thirty days. My question is does anyone
> know about this guy? Any references or experiences? Thanks.
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
> csanchez(at)world.std.com
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bq535(at)freenet.uchsc.edu (Dane Heule) |
Please sign me back up to the RV-list my mail server crashed and you took
me off the other day. Thank you
Join
Dane Heule
x
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KennyCobb(at)aol.com |
aol.com!Mlfred(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
Simple Orange is a great cleaner also, it is citrus based and is very
inexpensive and
best of all it is non toxic. It will remove Sharpie permanent ink from
aluminum and
works as a mild degreaser.
Ken Crabtree
RV6A HS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
>--------------
>
>Please sign me back up to the RV-list my mail server crashed and you took
>me off the other day. Thank you
>Join
>
>Dane Heule
>
>--------------
Please do not send subscription requests to the List. Instead, use the
address "rv-list-request(at)matronics.com", and put the word "subscribe" in
the *body* of the message. *Do not* put any other text in the message or
the Subject line. You will then be automatically subscribed to the List.
In the future, you may unsubscribe, again, by sending a message to
"rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" and this time putting the word "unsubscribe"
in the body of the message. Do not put any other text in the body or the
subject of the message. You will then be automatically unsubscribed from
the List.
Following this procedure exactly will reduce my List maintenance workload
significantly.
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Reply-to: Engine Sources? |
Cheryl,
I dont know anything about Dick waters, however, I am familiar with Don
George. He has done quite a few engines for local people, including one for
an RV-6, and several for a guy named Charlie here in Ft Pierce, FL. Charlie
has purchased several engines for the Glasiars and Velocities he puts
together. He recently had his grandsons C-150 engine overhauled by Don
George.
For me a new engine was too much money. I tried to buy one through the ads,
but decided I dont know enough yet to buy right. Overhauled was the best
bet.
I decided to order an engine from Don. I drove up to Orlando today to check
out his shop and look over my engine. My impressions were good and I trust
that Ill get a very good engine. Of course, the same sense of trust is not
so easy to instill over e-mail. The best thing is to call and visit the
shop. It is worth the cost if you cant find someone local.
I can say that Don runs a professional shop, has some knowledge of
experimentals, and warrants his work. Hell be at Sun N Fun .
Good Luck.
Boris
n51br(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING Engine Choices
FACTORY NEW ENGINES: Can be bought from OEM's Like Van's, and dealers of new
aircraft or very large brokers like VanBortel etc. The factories want to sell
NEW engines and therefore heavily discount to volume dealers. You generally
receive the benefit of these discounts and can buy at a price way below
factory list. The re-builders don't have the volume on new stuff and
therefore don't get as good a break. Their margin is so low they can NOT make
any money on selling NEW. They make the most profit on re-building engines.
Within the last couple of years with the factories aggressively pricing
factory REMANs and factory re-builds - the life of the rebuilders has been
very difficult.
FACTORY ZERO TIME:
Factories are the only ones authorized to ZERO time a USED engine. In fact a
new serial number is stamped on the used cases along with a new log book.
However, there is no guarantee as to what parts are re-used although most
"assume" everything is thrown away except the case and the crank. You tell me
how they determine if a used crank will be zero-TIMED or used for a
zero-LIMITS engine. As far as I know none of the factories have ever reveled
the secrete! These engines are the most expensive of the factory REMAN's and
are a few thousand dollars less than new.
FACTORY ZERO LIMITS:
The factories also will "re-build" to NEW LIMITS. These are NOT ZERO-TIME
engines. Everything is measured to see if it falls within the new-limit
TOLERANCE zone (OR can be re-machined to fall within tolerance) and if OK is
reused. Everything else is trashed. These are the least expensive of factory
engines. I imagine no thought is given to cycle life! Ask yourself if you
want a connecting rod with 4,000 hours on it.
THE RE-BUILDERS:
Absolutely anything can come out the door. Let the buyer beware, you get what
you pay for AND sometimes LESS! There is an EXTREME range in quality,
ability and warrantees. In order to compete with the low cost factory
re-builds the long-time, quality re-builders are trying to position themselves
as adding GREATER VALUE than the factories. They do this by adding some FAA
acceptable mods like balancing to closer than factory limits or using
certified parts from a PMA that are supposedly better than factory parts.
These motors will be FAA certified. The re-builder can also enhance
horsepower or make any other mod you wish (as an UNcertified motor) and the
cost can quickly add up to MORE THAN factory new.
The cost between factory new and a quality re-build may be as little as $3K -
$5K and yet you may end up with some parts with a very high CYCLE-LIFE. Your
personality and your flight environment will dictate your choices - but one
thing is for sure you absolutely owe it to yourself to thoroughly research
this subject. -Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Reply-to: Engine Sources? |
I bought an engine from Don George and am very satisfied. I got an O-320
first run out engine overhauled to factory new specs. Don was very helpful
with installation and stood behind the work he did. I would buy another
engine from him if I ever needed another one.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen) |
>Dan's weeping!
Here is another idea which I have NOT tested so anyone trying it do so
at their own risk. However, it sounds good to me:
I talked to a Locktite salesman and he told me the following story when
he found out I was building an airplane. Kenworth, the truck
manufacturer, had trouble with their aluminum welded gas tanks for
heavy trucks. They had an 18% failure rate when testing the tanks due
to porosity and pin holes in the welds. They tried some Loctite and it
solved the problem. He gave me a sample of the product. This is what
it says on the red bottle:
Loctite 290, adhesive/sealant, (wicking), item no. 29031, for locking
assembled fasteners; for sealing welds and porosities.
It sounds like one does not even have to pull a vacuum to get it in
there since it is "self-wicking" (presumably by capillary action).
Also, it apparently is not affected by diesel fuel. How it responds to
Av gas or Mo gas one should probably test before using it.
Peter B. Mortensen finishing RV-4 fuselage.
___________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project Summary & New Member |
I downloaded all my files to John Hovan who has indicated he will make them
available thru his home page when he finds the time to do so. In the mean
time if there is something specific you want let me know and I can try to get
them to you somehow.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | re Responses to Elev Trim Tab Ques |
Hi Folks,
Thanks for the responses regarding my Elev Trim Tab Ques. As always, I
got some great ideas and caveats. I think I'll call Vans to see if
they have changed plans available for the trim tab. If I find anything
interesting, I'll let the list know. BTW, I think this is another way
we can make the list pay off. We can probably reduce the calls to Vans
if we forward info, as accurately as possible, that we get via the
phone to Vans. I have noted a couple of people doing this recently.
Best regards, Bill
--
___ _____________________________
\ \ _ _ / /
\ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \
X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) /
o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \
\__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com /
\____________________________\
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Engine Dilemma & Kitplanes |
Hi Folks,
I am going thru my long 'twist in the breeze' regarding finding an
engine and have appreciated the engine Q & A's on the list recently.
What to do?
For those who have not seen the May issue of Kitplanes (which I
received in the mail in March!), there is another article on the use of
auto engines in aircraft. This one is about Jess Meyers at Belted Air
Power who has a PSRU (Propeller Speed Reduction Unit) that he has
supposedly been using in his Globe Swift for many years and several
thousands of hours with reliability.
He is trying to put together a 'turn-key' installation of a very
slightly modified (non-electronic auto ignition and diff racing exhaust
manifold) Chevy 200 HP V6 for an RV-6A. I called him and talked with
him and he says the whole thing with a brand new engine will run about
$6000, complete with engine mount ready to bolt into an RV-6A.
Apparently (from the article) a fellow named Glenn Smith of Las Vegas,
NV has been flying one of his PSRU's in a 6A for three years.
Gee, this has already gotten longer than I intended. Of course, the
'auto engine people' always claim the modern auto engines are far
superior to Lycoming's 'outdated' technology. (Hope Van isn't reading
this! :) )
My question is, does anyone have any more information about this,
especially info from people who are negative on the use of the
particular engine and what the problems would be?
Sorry for this being so long and thanks to the responders.
Best regards, Bill Costello
--
___ _____________________________
\ \ _ _ / /
\ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \
X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) /
o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \
\__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com /
\____________________________\
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MaynardB(at)SNOWMASS.PONCM.ksc.nasa.gov |
| Subject: | Flap Interference |
After installing the flap it was noticed that it does not settle into a
neutral position due to interference with flap brace at the point where it
is stepped up at the far inboard end. I have not riveted the flap brace on
ye. (Think before acting). Is one possible fix to bend the flap curve in a
little tighter? Need some suggestions Almost finished with second wing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcahoon(at)intellinet.com (David Cahoon) |
I have a run out 0-320 that will need to be overhauled. I would
prefer to buy a new engine from Van's or someone else but it appears no one
can compete with Van. However, he does not accept a core in trade. Everyone
I've called is higher even on a factory remanufactured price with the core
as credit, than Van is for a new. My obvious choice is to sell the core to a
third party and buy from Van. I would like ideas on who to try trading with
for a factory reman or factory O/H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | There was an article on the prototype installation a while |
back. I
There was an article on the prototype installation a while back. I
read it carefully and noticed that he said the perfomance was equal
to Lycoming. But in reading the article I noticed that he was not
comparing apples to apples. I don't remember the exact specifics but
he was comparing a 150 Lycoming powered RV6 at gross load to his with
one pilot and it was slower and climbed slightly worse. Now I guess
that is going to be offset by this new 200 Hp engine vs the old 215
Buick. It did sound a little promising that they can run it at 3500
rpm. But still remember these engines are designed to run at 2000
RPM. Stick your car in second gear and run it for 3 hours up the
freeway and see how comfortable you feel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Flap Interference (fwd) |
This is a common problem. I had it on one of my flaps but not the
other and never could figure out why.
I had to cut the flap LE skin (first drill a stop hole where the end of the
cut will be) just outboard of the rear spar doubler.
Cut it about an inch or so. Then I rolled this part of the flap leading
edge a little tighter to get it to clear the rear spar doubler.
Works fine now.
Herman (RV4)
>
> After installing the flap it was noticed that it does not settle into a
> neutral position due to interference with flap brace at the point where it
> is stepped up at the far inboard end. I have not riveted the flap brace on
> ye. (Think before acting). Is one possible fix to bend the flap curve in a
> little tighter? Need some suggestions Almost finished with second wing.
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Weeping rivets (fwd) |
This 'wicking' locktite is the same stuff used to lock the nut
on the end of the Lycoming oil temp valve (Varitherm valve).
It is one of the compliance methods on the AD.
I can attest that this stuff has incredible wicking power.
I think it may work great to wick around a rivet and seal it.
This is the 'permenent' type of locktite so be carefull where you
use it. The fluid is green in color wheras the removable locktite
is blue in color.
Herman
>
> >Dan's weeping!
>
> Here is another idea which I have NOT tested so anyone trying it do so
> at their own risk. However, it sounds good to me:
> I talked to a Locktite salesman and he told me the following story when
>
> he found out I was building an airplane. Kenworth, the truck
> manufacturer, had trouble with their aluminum welded gas tanks for
> heavy trucks. They had an 18% failure rate when testing the tanks due
> to porosity and pin holes in the welds. They tried some Loctite and it
>
> solved the problem. He gave me a sample of the product. This is what
> it says on the red bottle:
> Loctite 290, adhesive/sealant, (wicking), item no. 29031, for locking
> assembled fasteners; for sealing welds and porosities.
> It sounds like one does not even have to pull a vacuum to get it in
> there since it is "self-wicking" (presumably by capillary action).
> Also, it apparently is not affected by diesel fuel. How it responds to
>
> Av gas or Mo gas one should probably test before using it.
>
> Peter B. Mortensen finishing RV-4 fuselage.
> ___________________________________________________
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Cabin Air Tightness |
I am about to rivet my fuse skins on and am pondering the subject of
eliminating drafts in the cabin. At our monthly RV Builders meeting on
Monday, the folks with finished planes all commented on how much draft there
is in their planes. In recent posts, it has been mentioned to use boots
around the flap and aileron push tubes as they exit the fuselage. I am
wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection and
thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal with
proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be better/same/worse?
The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to the
point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, effective
techniques for reducing the noise level?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Flap Interference (fwd) |
>
> After installing the flap it was noticed that it does not settle into a
> neutral position due to interference with flap brace at the point where it
> is stepped up at the far inboard end. I have not riveted the flap brace on
> ye. (Think before acting). Is one possible fix to bend the flap curve in a
> little tighter? Need some suggestions Almost finished with second wing.
>
This seems to be pretty normal. Most people just trim off the
forward inboard corner of the flap skin. The trimmed part
won't even show with the flaps up. This is what I did.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | weeping fuel rivets |
I drilled out the weeping rivets (forget about the end of the rivet that
falls inside the tank) and replaced them with closed end pop rivets dipped in
pro-seal. They do rise above the skin as the factories don't make flush
closed end rivets that I know about. Anyway no more weeping rivets! 200 hours
on Rv-6A. I used 1/8" pop rivets.
hope this helps,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rwoodard(at)lawyernet.com |
| Subject: | Pre-punched skins |
SC> Actually, I was thinking that the job of mating a prepunched skin to a
SC> less than perfect skeleton must be pretty tricky.
SC>
SC> Cheers...
SC>
SC> Terry in Calgary
SC> S/N 24414
SC> "Horizontal Stabilizer"
Terry brought this up in a different context, but I've been wondering
how a builder will go about lining things up with the pre-punched skins
that are becoming more and more the norm.
I'm waiting on the -8, but I've been spending the last week or so
watching the Orndorff tapes for the -6A. It seems like there would have
to be some way to allow for minor variances in the placement of
skeleton pieces. Or some way to make sure there are _no_ variances.
Could someone please enlighten me? This has been bugging me for weeks!
Thanks.
Rod Woodard
RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com
Loveland, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Becky Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov> |
| Subject: | Cabin Air Tightness |
Ross,
George and I have not noticed drafts in either of our planes. We did =
put full interiors in both. The interiors consist of fabric on the =
sidewalls, carpet on the floor, seats with a built in boot for the stick =
and firewall insulation. The carpet underlayed with sleeping pads to =
fill the 3/4 inch stiffeners in the front floor of an RV-6 (A) and the =
firewall insulation cut down a great deal on the noise. Also, pointing =
the exhaust as downward as possible helps. Making sure the canopy is a =
tight fit will also help eliminate drafts. We did fill all holes in the =
firewall with rtv to prevent exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I believe =
the shipping weight on most of the seats with full interiors that we =
have been selling was no more than 20 pounds including the packaging =
material. If you would like more information, please call (301) =
293-1505 or email.
Becki Orndorff
----------
From: =
ix.netcom.com!rmickey(at)matronics.com[SMTP:ix.netcom.com!rmickey(at)matronics.=
com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 1996 1:01 PM
Subject: RV-List: Cabin Air Tightness
I am about to rivet my fuse skins on and am pondering the subject of
eliminating drafts in the cabin. At our monthly RV Builders meeting on
Monday, the folks with finished planes all commented on how much draft =
there
is in their planes. In recent posts, it has been mentioned to use boots
around the flap and aileron push tubes as they exit the fuselage. I am
wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection =
and
thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal =
with
proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be =
better/same/worse?
The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to =
the
point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, =
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
I have found that pulling the mixture to idle/cut-off will substantaly
reduce cockpit noise. It also reduces the need for coffee. Try it sometime
insted of carb-heat. A real surprize 8-O
Chris
>
> The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to the
> point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, effective
> techniques for reducing the noise level?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com> |
>From Peter Hanna:
To answer my own question (03/14/96) on cowl flap thermostatic actuation
with a the VW device, I dropped in on a knowledgible pilot friend, Wolfgang,
who owns a German car repair shop. He had about a dozen old VW bug and
Porche engines in storage. We looked at the mechanism and I was convinced
that it has potential as as RV cowl flap actauator. A cylindrical bellows
type device, about 2" in dia and about 2" high, mounted on a bracket
downstream of the cylinders on one side, it actuates a rod extending up
between the cylinders. The rod connects to a series of simple links and
rods to actuate four upstream baffles which control the output of the
centrifugal fan to the cylinders. The baffles are aerodynamically balanced
so there is no strong force trying to close or open them, although they
appeared to be biased to open rather than close if anything came
disconnected. Wolfgang says this mechanism is very reliable, and never
causes any trouble. If the system survives years of neglect sttached to a VW
bug engine I think it would be be reliablle as a control for an RV cowl
flap. One could mount the bellows just under the area between the two right
(or left) cylinders and cable connect it to a balanced baffle at the exit
point of the cowl scoop. I wonder if the system would be responsive enough
in closing the flap to prevent shock cooling when the throttle is closed at
speed, as well as to open in response to high power settings at lower speeds
as in a climb.
Peter Hanna, RDM Corp, 4-508 Weber St. North, Waterloo, Canada, N2V1K4,
B: 519 746 8483 X224, F: 519 746 3317,
Email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
I really doubt that using proseal in the seams would make any
difference as far as drafts go. Also the planes aren't THAT drafty --
especially if you seal the canopy and use control rod boots, etc.
as you mentioned.
As far as noise is concerned -- the main thing seems to be to dampen
the vibration of the skins. One method an "old timer" showed me was
to just glue a small patch of carpet or insulation to the middle of
the skin surfaces that are prone to vibration. He said you don't have to
cover the whole surface, just stick a "dampener" in the middle of the
skin area. Of course it might look funny in your cabin area to do this
but something to consider for the out of sight areas.
Also the forward belly pan is an area that vibrates especially (as we
all know by now I think....) One measure I've seen lately and that
I plan to do myself is to add a subfloor over the existing floorboard
stiffener angles, and put insulation under that. Mike Seager is doing
this on his new RV-6. Alternately you could just put dense insulation
on the floor -- make sure it's dense and durable since you'll be stepping
on it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> I am about to rivet my fuse skins on and am pondering the subject of
> eliminating drafts in the cabin. At our monthly RV Builders meeting on
> Monday, the folks with finished planes all commented on how much draft there
> is in their planes. In recent posts, it has been mentioned to use boots
> around the flap and aileron push tubes as they exit the fuselage. I am
> wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
> proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection and
> thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
>
> I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
> decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal with
> proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be better/same/worse?
>
> The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to the
> point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, effective
> techniques for reducing the noise level?
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
> 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
> Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
I've been an advocate for building in your basement as much as possible.
Sunday, I was reminded of one potentially huge disadvantage of basement
building. I put in a wash of clothes and then took my daughter out in the
yard for a while. About an hour later, I could hear the faint sound of
running water. You guessed it, the washer didn't turn off when if was full
We ran in the house and after turning the *&%$#ing Maytag off, I could hear
what sounded like a waterfall in the basement. This is a feeling that will
make you sick to your stomach. In the end, I lost a few tools, some wood
but no harm was done to any plane parts( miraculously ).
Just another thing to think about..........
JOhn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | Electrical connectors |
Installing a heated pitot tube and leading edge landing light in my
partially completed wing has me thinking about the issue of electrical
connectors. The wrist-lock (and the flat tab) quick-connects one sees in
the aircraft supply catalogs seem ok, but they don't seem to be insulated,
and they require a separate connector for each electrical line. I have
seen locking nylon Molex connectors that are available in 1 - 15 pin sizes,
and that would seem to be perfect for our wiring jobs. The manufacturer
has a few different varieties, that can handle max currents from a few amps
up to 20 amps. The price is a couple of dollars per connector pair.
Have people out there found the need for this sort of connector, or are
wrist-locks (or nothing) the more common way to go? I can post part
numbers and vendors if there is any interest. Are there any FAA sorts of
issues regarding the use of electrical connectors in homebuilts?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-3829
1600 Washington Ave.
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Dilemma & Kitplanes |
>He is trying to put together a 'turn-key' installation of a very
>slightly modified (non-electronic auto ignition and diff racing exhaust
>manifold) Chevy 200 HP V6 for an RV-6A. I called him and talked with
>him and he says the whole thing with a brand new engine will run about
>$6000, complete with engine mount ready to bolt into an RV-6A.
>Apparently (from the article) a fellow named Glenn Smith of Las Vegas,
>NV has been flying one of his PSRU's in a 6A for three years.
I too, was very interested in this article. I'll be needing an engine in 2-3
months and had pretty much resigned myself to buying a new Lyc from Van's.
When I read this article with the $1800 price tag for the Chevy I thought it
was a typo.
I'm a little leary about it, as I've been waiting for the Subaru people to
finish the Legacy engine that's been "real close to being ready" for the last
3 years now. I'm going to be in Vegas April 13-15 and I'm going to stop by
and see them. They're supposed to do the first flight in the 6A this week.
I think the main thing they have going for them is that the PSRU is a proven
one, and the engine makes most of it's power at low RPM's. I'm hopeful, but
we'll see.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness (fwd) |
On the RV4, the main area is the seal around the canopy.
I flew in a friends and it had lots of air leaks.
On mine, I used a weatherstrip I found at Home Depot, called
EDM rubber (I think). It works great and is a grey color.
It is 'D' shaped and comes with two D sections that can be
pulled appart or left side by side. I used the 2 D sections side
by side on both sides of the canopy.
I also made small wood blocks to fill the gap a the forward part
of the canopy frame. RV4 folks will know what I am refering to.
At the front, this EDM was a little too thick. I used a very simply
seal that is like a mylar and you just fold it in half.
One side is sticky. It forms a V shape. The V faces forward so
any air pressure forces it to seal between the canopy skin and
the fuselage skin. This solved the air leak at the front.
You can buy this at Home Depot als well. It all in the window/door
seal area. Builders Square has the same stuff.
I think the other areas are all second order problems compared to the
canopy.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William French <wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca> |
| Subject: | Toronto area RVers |
Hi folks. I've been following the RV aircraft for some time now
and would like to know if there is a RV club in the Toronto - Guelph -
Kitchener - Hamilton area. I'm about ready to commit and would like to
get some opinions and data from owners who have been flying their RV's
for a while.
Much thanks in advance.
Bill French
wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca
Decathlon C-GJXT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler) |
| Subject: | Re: Uncle Matt's Tip #1 - Marking Plexi Canopy... |
I have heard that keosene will remove backing paper and masking tape from
plexiglas. Haven't personally tried it.
Doug
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing, Van's AirForce, RV-4 in progress, N722DW
= 347 Krattley Lane
= Hudson, WI 54016
= 715-386-1239
= email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbusick(at)nmsu.edu (Robert Busick) |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-punched skins |
Rod
With prepunched skins you have very little room for error. It does
creep in and you have to watch it, the time you save with a prepunched skin
may be lost in the extra time needed to insure the skeleton is built
exactly. Unfortuantely my wing spar holes were not drilled exactly right
when I got them from Vans, this made it interesting. Overall PP is pretty
good, but measuring twice is not sufficient.
When measuring just don't remeasure from the exaxt same points, do
some inverse measuring, or use different points on the structure. By the
time you finish you will have the equilivent of a Phd in measuring. Get
good measuring devices and a lot of them, rulers, squares, hole templates,
bevels, chalk lines, plumb lines, protractors, calipers, screw/drill
guages, levels of all types, center finders, etc. Just to name a few.
Measure, measure, check the measurements, and remeasure. And
before you cut or drill, check the measurements on the plans, in the manual
and then remeasure and recheck your measurements.
Bob Busick
RV-6
rbusick(at)nmsu.edu
>SC> Actually, I was thinking that the job of mating a prepunched skin to a
>SC> less than perfect skeleton must be pretty tricky.
>
>Terry brought this up in a different context, but I've been wondering
>how a builder will go about lining things up with the pre-punched skins
>that are becoming more and more the norm.
>
>I'm waiting on the -8, but I've been spending the last week or so
>watching the Orndorff tapes for the -6A. It seems like there would have
>to be some way to allow for minor variances in the placement of
>skeleton pieces. Or some way to make sure there are _no_ variances.
>Could someone please enlighten me? This has been bugging me for weeks!
>
>Thanks.
>
>Rod Woodard
>RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com
>Loveland, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Baines <bill(at)sfu.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical connectors |
>Installing a heated pitot tube and leading edge landing light in my
>partially completed wing has me thinking about the issue of electrical
>connectors. The wrist-lock (and the flat tab) quick-connects one sees in
>the aircraft supply catalogs seem ok, but they don't seem to be insulated,
>and they require a separate connector for each electrical line. [... other
text deleted...]
My experience with (run of the mill) molex connectors in aircraft has not
been too good. I worked as a helicopter avionics technician in a former life.
For possible high current situations like pitot heat, and where disconnecting
will be rare, I recommend Knife connectors with a piece of PVC tubing over top
for insulation. The PVC tubing should be ty-wraped or laced at each end to keep
it from moving. When it comes time to disconnect, cut the tye wraps at one
end, slide back the tubing, and disconnect. This is common practice. The knife
connectors are silver plated and have excellent physical attachment
capabilities.
I plan to use this technique on Pitot Heat, Landing Lights, Trim Motors etc.
The Tab and Tongue terminals are tight when new, but at least in high
vibration environments (like helicopters) they are not reliable.
Bill...
--
Bill Baines bill(at)sfu.ca
Home/Bus: 604-535-2709 | VE7FML
Fax/Job: 604-533-0618 |
Pager: 604-680-9072 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
> Randall,
> Could you find out more details on the subfloor for all of us??
>
> I would guess that any metal across the tops of the floor
> stiffeners would have to be 0.040 to "feel" solid. Thinner stuff could be
> used with crosswise stiffeners I suppose. Can you find out what Mike is
> planning?
>
> Is he making it removeable with nutplates??
>
>
> .... sound like a good idea .. any more details would be appreciated
..
Mike had a couple of stiffeners made up special to replace the two
outboard stiffeners -- they are "hat" shaped .040. He told me he's just
going to pop-rivet the .040 subfloor to them. They are 3/4" tall, flanges
are 5/8", middle part is about 1 1/4" wide. They look like this:
,------.
| |
----' `----
I don't have easy access to a brake, and the one guy I asked about doing
this couldn't make that kind of a shape with his, so I'm just going to rivet
.040 angles to the existing .063 stiffeners (all four of them), creating a
"Z" channel. I plan to put nutplates in the top leg of the "Z" and screw the
subfloor to that.
,-----
||
||
-----'
I figure I can also run wiring and fuel lines underneath, plus the
insulation could get wet, which is why I'm using screws/nutplates. Shoud
be a simple deal to fasten some angles to the bottom longerons too to
fasten the outside of the subfloor to. It will probably have to be
split down the middle, with nutplates/screws on the center seam.
The biggest disadvantage I see is weight. A piece of .040 that big isn't
going to be very light. But what the hey, I'm using nutplates, so I could
always take it out if I want....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Dilemma & Kitplanes |
>
>>He is trying to put together a 'turn-key' installation of a very
>>slightly modified (non-electronic auto ignition and diff racing exhaust
>>manifold) Chevy 200 HP V6 for an RV-6A. I called him and talked with
>>him and he says the whole thing with a brand new engine will run about
>>$6000, complete with engine mount ready to bolt into an RV-6A.
>>Apparently (from the article) a fellow named Glenn Smith of Las Vegas,
>>NV has been flying one of his PSRU's in a 6A for three years.
>
>I too, was very interested in this article. I'll be needing an engine in 2-3
>months and had pretty much resigned myself to buying a new Lyc from Van's.
> When I read this article with the $1800 price tag for the Chevy I thought it
>was a typo.
>
>I'm a little leary about it, as I've been waiting for the Subaru people to
>finish the Legacy engine that's been "real close to being ready" for the last
>3 years now. I'm going to be in Vegas April 13-15 and I'm going to stop by
>and see them. They're supposed to do the first flight in the 6A this week.
>
>I think the main thing they have going for them is that the PSRU is a proven
>one, and the engine makes most of it's power at low RPM's. I'm hopeful, but
>we'll see.
>
>-- Ed Bundy
>
Be sure to keep us posted. A friend of mine is building an RV-6A with a
Chevy V-6 also. He's hoping to market the 'kit' if all works out for him.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Morristec(at)aol.com |
Hi,
My name is Dan Morris, and I am building a RV6 with 2 partners. We have been
building since Oct. 93 and are completed with empennage, wings, and basic
fuselage structure. The empennage and wings are fitted to the fuselage. We
are now working on the canopy and soon on to firewall forward. The
anticipation is that we will fly by fall of this year. We are in search of
RV6 owners in the southeast PA area for advice about flying the RV6, and
perhaps to bum a ride. Is there anyone out there? We are building in
Downingtown, PA.
Thanks,
Morristec(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Morristec(at)aol.com |
I know that Van has towed his glider with a RV6. Has anyone else tried this?
What tow hook arrangement was used. Any info would be appreciated
Dan Morris
Morristec(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Becky Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov> |
| Subject: | RV-6(A) front floor |
All,
Another alternative to building a second floor in the RV-6(A) is to use
=
carpeting and fill in the spaces between the stiffeners with a pad that =
is generally used under sleeping bags. The pad is 3/8" thick so two =
layers will fill in the space. Glue one layer to the floor and the =
other layer to the back of the carpet. This hold the carpet in place. =
It generally takes about 2 pads to do a plane. This pad weighs almost =
nothing and reduces noise and helps with temperature control. You can =
find the pad at most outdoor stores or any place that sells camping =
supplies. Call me if you want more information - (301) 293-1505.
Happy building! (and flying!)
Becki Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Electrical connectors |
Installing a heated pitot tube and leading edge landing light in my
partially completed wing has me thinking about the issue of electrical
connectors. The wrist-lock (and the flat tab) quick-connects one sees in
the aircraft supply catalogs seem ok, but they don't seem to be insulated,
and they require a separate connector for each electrical line. I have
seen locking nylon Molex connectors that are available in 1 - 15 pin sizes,
and that would seem to be perfect for our wiring jobs. The manufacturer
has a few different varieties, that can handle max currents from a few amps
up to 20 amps. The price is a couple of dollars per connector pair.
Have people out there found the need for this sort of connector, or are
wrist-locks (or nothing) the more common way to go? I can post part
numbers and vendors if there is any interest. Are there any FAA sorts of
issues regarding the use of electrical connectors in homebuilts?
Richard M. Ernst
Richard,
The Molex connnectors you cite are close cousins to the Amp Mate-N-Lock
series of connnectors that found their way onto certified airplanes
(Cessnas) back in the 60's. They've stood the test of time and I would
have no problems with calling them out for most uncritical applications.
The biggest problem I wrestle with in recommending them for homebuilders
is that yet ANOTHER tool and skill needs to be acquired. Another
issue arrises when the builder DOES acquire tools and skills, they
tend to put in too many connectors as a perceived convenience . . . like
wing removal or breakes in cables at the firewall, etc.
General guidlines for deciding what, if any, connnectors are appropriate:
(1) keep in mind that every connector installation puts three new joints
in a wire . . two crimps and one set of mated pins. They also inject two
possibilities for mechanical failure (pins not seated so they back out
of the connector).
(2) A lot of installations of convenience are never utilized beyond the
initial installation (i.e. wing root disconnects). I've been working
on and around airplanes for 35 years and I think I've been involved in
only one case where we actually removed a wing and opened a wire bundle!
The upshot is that connectors of convenience add labor, dollars and
time to project along with reduced reliability. My suggestion is
that where ever possible, wires may be soldered and heat shrinked
to provide about as reliable a connection as you can build. This
technique is very suitable to two and three wire devices like light
fixtures and pitot heaters. Just leave about 6" of service slack
to allow cutting out the splice for replacement of the accessory
from time to time . . . typically 10-20 years apart! Same thing
applies at wing roots. Slack in the bundle tied up to prevent
flopping gives you room to work with in the future without degrading
the integerity of the originally installed wire. The fast-on tabs
are a good intermediate choice since you crimp these with the same
tool and skills as all other wires terminating in PIDG ring terminals.
A sleeve of heat shrink over the un-insulated fast-on provides
necessary insulation.
Connectors are really great when you NEED them but you need the
wire to stay together too. Molex/Mate-n-Lock style connectors
are economical and a good product . . . use them where they
do you the MOST good.
Regards,
Bob Nuckolls
AeroElectric Connection
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
> know that Van has towed his glider with a RV6. Has anyone else tried this?
> What tow hook arrangement was used. Any info would be appreciated
>
>Dan Morris
>
>Morristec(at)aol.com
>
>
Is this allowed in the FAR's????????
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Sources? |
> I am looking for a Lycoming O-360. I noticed in Trade-A-Plane
>that there are these two companies that are always advertising engines
>for homebuilders: Don George and Dick Waters of Air Tek. I called
>Don George and he told me he could not compete with Van's OEM price
>for a new engine for the 360. The guy at Air Tek said he could put
>one together for me in about thirty days. My question is does anyone
>know about this guy? Any references or experiences? Thanks.
>
>Cheryl Sanchez
>csanchez(at)world.std.com
Cheryl:
I purchased my engine from Dick Waters and have had no problems with it
except for a small oil leak under the gasket of the right mag. There was a
definate gouge in the accessory case that was causing the leak. Dick did
offer to replace the part, but I choose to fix the problem with a better
gasket.
I currently have over 600 (almost 700) hours on the engine since Sept '94.
The engine has always run good, and oil analysis has not indicated anything
unusuall.
While I haven't had any problems, I do know of another RVator the has had
to replace all four jugs on a Dick Waters ENgine. While Dick offered to
rebuild all four cyclinders, this individual choose to have Mattatuck do
them. I don't know the exact circumstances of the original problem, so I
can't comment on the cause.
When contracting with Air Tek, I was very carefull to technically specify
EXACTLY what I expected from Air Tek. This required first knowing what was
required for a certified rebuild process, then essencially specifying that
process from a non-certified rebuilder (Air Tek). I also required that ALL
internal dimension measurements and ALL yellow tags (and their work orders)
be part of the specification.
Whatever you choose to do, just remember, "BUYER BEWARE". Know what is
needed, specify it, and check for the quality of workmanship and material
before you pay for it. If you buy a non-certified engine, it may not live up
to your expectations or requirements unless you are very careful.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
Mickey:
As you pointed out, the boots have been discussed before, and their
installation results in significant reduction in cabin cold air from the
outside. IMO sealing the skinns will not make a significant difference, and
may result in more smoking rivets.......
Cabin noise can be significantly reduces by adding a floor over the
stiffeners, with closed cell foam (available frome Spruce & Speciallty)
between the stiffeners. Also, if you have an exhaust system with straight
pipes, find a way to point them down. I think (but am not sure) that Veterman
now has curved extensions for his straight pipe system. Call him for advice.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
> am about to rivet my fuse skins on and am pondering the subject of
>eliminating drafts in the cabin. At our monthly RV Builders meeting on
>Monday, the folks with finished planes all commented on how much draft there
>is in their planes. In recent posts, it has been mentioned to use boots
>around the flap and aileron push tubes as they exit the fuselage. I am
>wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
>proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection and
>thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
>
>I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
>decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal with
>proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be better/same/worse?
>
>The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to the
>point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, effective
>techniques for reducing the noise level?
>
>Ross Mickey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical connectors |
> >Installing a heated pitot tube and leading edge landing light in my
> >partially completed wing has me thinking about the issue of electrical
> >connectors.
Heated pitot tubes come with the connector.
BEst Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Arter <arter(at)acd.ucar.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
Ross, hi
I would strongly recommend against doing this on all the skin overlaps. The
RV is of semi-monocoque construction, which means the skin overlaps are
critical to the structural integrity of the airplane. Adding a layer of
elastic material between the skins will act as a "lubricant" and allow the
skins to move relative to each other putting more shear on the rivets. The
friction between the skins after they are riveted together is part of the
strenth of the joint, I don't know what percent, but I'm sure the structure
would be adversely affected.
Phil Arter
EAA Technical Counselor #3720
arter(at)acd.ucar.edu
>
>I am
>wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
>proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection and
>thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
>
>I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
>decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal with
>proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be better/same/worse?
>
-----------------------------
>Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
>2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
>Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Attachments (a request) |
For those of you who do postings with attachments (metamail), I thought I
would point something out. Not everyone can read them.
At Showpage, we're suffering from a good case of the cobbler's kids
shoes. You know -- the cobbler's kids never have any shoes 'cause he's
always too busy taking care of the paying customers. I'm still using
a 3-year-old copy of "elm". It recognizes you have attachments, but
my installation doesn't have whatever it needs to actually display the
message. When I see the "M", I just delete....
Fixing this at my site would certainly take me at least 15 minutes of
net surfing to find the right software. But that's 15 minutes I haven't
spent. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg/rv.html
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap Interference |
Maynard:
You asked:
> After installing the flap it was noticed that it does not settle into a
> neutral position due to interference with flap brace at the point where it
> is stepped up at the far inboard end. I have not riveted the flap brace on
> ye. (Think before acting). Is one possible fix to bend the flap curve in a
> little tighter? Need some suggestions Almost finished with second wing.
I had exactly the same problem. The common fix is to notch the leading
edge of the upper flap skin at that point. Notch it just enoughso that
the flap will fulley 'retract', and the notch will be so shallow that it
won't be visible when the flap is fully extended.
When the RV-8 was at Copperstate last fall, I noticed that Van's had done
the same thing on it. (After I saw it on the RV-8, I didn't feel so bad
;-) )
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Arter <arter(at)acd.ucar.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
Ross, hi
I would strongly recommend against doing this on all the skin overlaps. The
RV is of semi-monocoque construction, which means the skin overlaps are
critical to the structural integrity of the airplane. The skins ARE the
primary structure. Adding a layer of elastic material between the skins
will act as a "lubricant" and allow the skins to move relative to each other
putting more shear on the rivets. The friction between the skins after they
are riveted together is part of the strenth of the joint, I don't know what
percent, but I'm sure the structural integrity would be adversely affected.
I wouldn't want to see the back half of your plane fall off after a hard
landing, or worse.
Phil Arter
EAA Technical Counselor #3720
>I am about to rivet my fuse skins on and am pondering the subject of
>eliminating drafts in the cabin. At our monthly RV Builders meeting on
>Monday, the folks with finished planes all commented on how much draft there
>is in their planes. In recent posts, it has been mentioned to use boots
>around the flap and aileron push tubes as they exit the fuselage. I am
>wondering about sealing the seams of the fuselage skins. I have extra
>proseal and am considering using it to seal my firewall/skin connection and
>thought about doing this on all skin overlaps.
>
>I know this won't increase the strength of the riveted joint but will it
>decrease it? Any other down side to doing this except having to deal with
>proseal? Would some other sealant like non-acidic RVT be better/same/worse?
>
>The RV Flyers also mentioned the high noise level inside thier planes to the
>point of some wearing earplugs inside their headsets. Any light, effective
>techniques for reducing the noise level?
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------
>Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
>2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
>Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | RV-6 Predrilled Firewalls |
Just a note to say that I recieved my -6 fuselage kit yesterday, and the
firewall was indeed pre drilled and assembled with clecoes. Looks like
finishing it will be pretty simple. Only one problem: the hole has been
cut out for the firewall recess for the prop govenor. Unfortunately, the
recess box itself was not included! It seems to me that if Van's is going
to cut out the hole, then the recess is no longer an optional part! Oh
well, I planned do it anyway.
Also evident was the fact that nearly all of the aluminum sheet parts
were covered with plastic on both sides. Great!
All of the full swivel tailwheel parts were backordered, including the
mounting weldment. Will I need to mount the weldment before I can start
skinning?
Regards,
Curt Reimer
P.S. Receiving a kit from Van's has become the most exciting event of the
year! Maybe I need to get out more often.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> > know that Van has towed his glider with a RV6. Has anyone else tried this?
> > What tow hook arrangement was used. Any info would be appreciated
> >
> >Dan Morris
> >
> >Morristec(at)aol.com
> >
> >
>
> Is this allowed in the FAR's????????
I don't have time to look up the FAR, but as I recall, glider towing in
an Experimental Class aircraft is explicitly prohibited by a FAR.
On the other hand, I believe it's possible to get a waiver. How possible
probably depends on the grace of your local FSDO.
Cal Brabandt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kelley <72466.1355(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Pre-drilled wing skin alignment. |
I have been trying to follow the messages about pre-drilled wing skins mating to
the ribs and having proper edge clearance for rivets.
Just wondering?
(1) What if you were to mark the locations of the ribs on the main spar as per
instructions.
(2) Take the skins and clamp them in place on the spar.
(3) Mark the locations of the rivet holes on the main spar.
This should give you a real good indication of where the holes will fall in the
ribs assuming that you have installed the ribs 90 deg to the spar. If the holes
are too close to the edges the ribs could be shifted, depending on the rib. Has
anyone tried this or something simular? The instructions (Van's and Justice's)
seem to imply that there is no problem with the pre-drilled skins aligning with
the ribs and proper edge clearance. Is this the case?
Thanks in advance!
James Kelley.
(ready to drillt the ribs& angles to spars)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 Predrilled Firewalls |
> All of the full swivel tailwheel parts were backordered, including the
> mounting weldment. Will I need to mount the weldment before I can start
> skinning?
>
> Regards,
> Curt Reimer
Yes. But not to worry -- unless you're a LOT faster than I am,
the tailwheel weldment will have gathered a lot of dust by the time
you get to the point of installing it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | allsop(at)l14h13.jsc.nasa.gov (David Allsop) |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
Phil,
You wrote :
>I would strongly recommend against doing this on all the skin overlaps. The
>RV is of semi-monocoque construction, which means the skin overlaps are
>critical to the structural integrity of the airplane. Adding a layer of
>elastic material between the skins will act as a "lubricant" and allow the
>skins to move relative to each other putting more shear on the rivets. The
>friction between the skins after they are riveted together is part of the
>strenth of the joint, I don't know what percent, but I'm sure the structure
>would be adversely affected.
While this is true that skins will 'slide' by adding a lubricant between
the overlaps, it will not affect the integrity of a properly designed
joint. When we do an analysis of a riveted joint we directly assume that
the rivets take all the stress, and that the sliding friction of the joint
is non-existant. Typically once adequit saftey factors are applied there
is no difference between the two as the sliding friction of the joint is
much lower then the shear strength of the material or rivet and the layers
will slide before the rivet fails.
But, I do aggree with you that Ross should not add the sealant between the
overlaps as this could will an increase in the thickness between the skins
and could allow the skins to have a greater bending moment than in the
non-lubricated state (recall that an overlap joint puts the rivet in both
shear and bending, with the rivet failure being a combination of the
stresses). Plus the sealant will allow the joint to 'flex' in bending,
creating a fatigue problem. I would be more fearfull of these then the
sliding factor.
A light bead of silicon along the seam should solve the leak.
Happy building
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
> > know that Van has towed his glider with a RV6. Has anyone else tried this?
> > What tow hook arrangement was used. Any info would be appreciated
> >
> >Dan Morris
> >
> >Morristec(at)aol.com
>
>
> Is this allowed in the FAR's????????
>
> Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
> wstucklen(at)aol.com
The question is, is it specifically NOT allowed by the FARs. I've
looked over the regs concerning homebuilts pretty carefully over
the years and don't recall ever seeing anything disallowing glider
towing with a homebuilt (aside from all that "compensation or hire"
stuff). Do you have some reason to think it wouldn't be allowed?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rv flap hinge installtion |
Can anyone out there tell me how to best install the dumb hinges that hold
the flaps to the wings. I keep getting the things not straight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | pre-drilled skins.. |
In my tail kit, I noticed that some of the flanges on the ribs were not
perfectly cut. In other words, the cut edge was wavy. This made it
impossible to have all of the rivet holes perfectly straight and still
get the edge clearance. If my tail skins had been pre-drilled, I would
have had a big problem. I hope the wing ribs are much better......
The nominal width is only 5/8. You are supposed to maintain 1/4 from
each side which uses up 1/2 of the 5/8. That leaves you 1/8 or
+/- 1/16 to drill your holes in, if the rib is perfectly straight and
properly manufactured. That's not much room for error.....
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Cabin Air Tightness |
Reply to: Cabin Air Tightness
I remember an article in Sport Aviation about the building of an SX300. It
was a cover plane and they did an in-depth feature on its construction. They
went to great lengths to BOND all the riveted joints. They built an autoclave
to bake all joints. Dick did do some testing with every batch and if I
remember correctly the bonded joint was about 100% stronger than a riveted
only (UNbonded joint). That is a extremely stiff structure and may be
interesting to some builders.
I agree (in theory) that adding anything that would not harden would act as an
lubricant. However, there are other materials (other than proseal) that you
could consider and would surely enhance the strength of the joint and provide
the seal you are looking for. Aren't the Musketeer, Sundowner, Grumman Tiger
and Tomahawk all BONDED wings? Obviously the "glue" works. Undoubtedly, it
will cost much more and be more difficult to create the environment needed to
cure the material. But only you can make the hassle/cost-benefit decision.
I'll try to look for the issue tonight and report back.
-Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: pre-drilled skins.. |
The nominal edge distance is 3/16" for 3/32" rivets (skin rivets),
not 1/4". The 1/4" is for 1/8" rivets. Actually the MIL-SPEC allows
slightly closer than this. I am not aware of any min edge dist. from
the web, but for practical purposes you just need to have enough room
to get a dimple die in there. That can be pretty close if you use
ground off dimple dies I recommend getting one of those vice grip
dimplers from Avery and grinding off one edge almost down to the
edge of the dimple part. Very handy for places where you wander a
little close to the web.
I mark most of my flanges for 1/4" distance from the edge of the flange,
that way if I get a little bit off it's still ok.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> In my tail kit, I noticed that some of the flanges on the ribs were not
> perfectly cut. In other words, the cut edge was wavy. This made it
> impossible to have all of the rivet holes perfectly straight and still
> get the edge clearance. If my tail skins had been pre-drilled, I would
> have had a big problem. I hope the wing ribs are much better......
>
> The nominal width is only 5/8. You are supposed to maintain 1/4 from
> each side which uses up 1/2 of the 5/8. That leaves you 1/8 or
> +/- 1/16 to drill your holes in, if the rib is perfectly straight and
> properly manufactured. That's not much room for error.....
>
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
After reading the comments regarding pre-drilled skins, I have a comment
for those who are fairly new are working on the first few parts of their
empennage.
The directions and the Orndorff video suggests you pre-drill the skins after
marking the insides up with the skeleton layout. When I did this, I had
problems with edge clearances.
However, the rudder and elevators don't work this way -- you drill the skins
in combination with the skeleton. Furthermore, you can see the results of
each hole as you drill it. That is, you lay out on the outside of the skin
where the holes go, then start drilling.
The advantage: if you notice that your holes aren't ending up perfectly
centered on the spars, you can make adjustments. You don't have to drill
right on the line -- you can drill a smidge high or low to get things to
work properly.
Finding a method that allows this type of feedback when working on the HS
and VS might be worth it.
-Joe
HS, VS, Rudder, Right 'vator done. Left 'vator 25%.
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: pre-drilled skins.. |
You are supposed to maintain 1/4 from
>each side which uses up 1/2 of the 5/8. That leaves you 1/8 or
>+/- 1/16 to drill your holes in, if the rib is perfectly straight and
>properly manufactured. That's not much room for error.....
>
>John
>
John and all,
I wasn't aware that you needed to stay 1/4" from the flange side of a rib.
How did I miss this one?? I know I have many places where I ventured closer
to the flange. I have walys been carful about staying proper edge distace
from a true edge, not a bend in the metal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Re: towing w/ an experimental--
> The question is, is it specifically NOT allowed by the FARs. I've
> looked over the regs concerning homebuilts pretty carefully over
> the years and don't recall ever seeing anything disallowing glider
> towing with a homebuilt (aside from all that "compensation or hire"
> stuff). Do you have some reason to think it wouldn't be allowed?
Now that I've thought about it a little more, I don't think there
is a FAR prohibition. I think the problem is that the standard
operating limitations that the FAA places on most experimental
homebuilts prohibit towing gliders and carrying jumpers. Almost everyone
gets the same limitations--you know, the stuff requiring an annual
conditions check and all. It's a nearly standard list. If you
can get the inspector to leave it off, it would probably be easier
to comply with...
Sec. 91.309 Towing: Gliders,
(2) The towing aircraft is equipped with a tow-hitch of a kind, and
installed in a manner, that is approved by the Administrator;
Cal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowl Flap to prevent shock cooling? |
>>Has anybody mentioned the potential cowl flap benefit of reduced shock
>>cooling in a rapid decent? I like the idea of the automatic VW driven
>>thermostatic bi-metal device controling the flap (with CHT warning and an
>>override via cable if anything went wrong). Would the VW device be
>>responsive enough to prevent shock cooling?
>>
>>Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882
>>B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com
>>
>>
>If you are using a temperature sensor to move or tell you when to move the
>cowl flap you would be waiting too long before getting a response. The
>shock cooling or temp rise would already be taking place.
>
>A better way might be to tie your cowl flap linkage in with changes in
>manifold pressure. Something like a spring loaded vacuum cylinder that
>would let the flaps open at say >20"MP. Of course settings and spring rates
>would have to be determined, but, this type of control action would prevent
>sharp temperature swings instead of follow them.
>
>A really slick way that Everet Hatch used on his rotary powered RV-4 (Power
>Sport) utilizes the exhaust energy to help enhance cooling. Building the
>exhaust pipe into an eductor similar to the old Cessna 310's and (I think)
>Beech Queen Airs. When you open the throttle, the exhaust energy creats a
>suction that pulls cooling air through the cowling. I think it mostly
>enhances the cooling for a tight cowling. Again, you would have to work out
>the details, but, this is another example of the engine's power setting
>controlling the cooling, not the temperature change or shocking temperature
>change of which the simple proportional thermostat knows no difference.
>
>Mike
>
>Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles, Vancouver, WA jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
>RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) ..
>
>Hi Mike;
Reading over your response (Mar 12) to my earlier query on shock cooling and
cowl flaps (after being away on business and vacation for a couple of weeks).
You mention that the shock-cooling/over-heating would be "already taking
place". But wouldn't it be like any closed loop system? A small temp drop
would have to cause the cowl flap to close sufficiently to prevent a further
drop, and vice versa. Suppose the flap didn't start to open until CHT temp
reached, say 375 F, and become fully open by 475. After start, wouldn't the
CHT quickly rise to 375 then stabilize at something like 425, and any change
cause a fairly large corresponding response to the flap to keep it in the
375-475 range? In a worst-case fluctuation, would a drop to 375 constitute
shock cooling? It would require a non-linear linkage that would cause the
thermostat bellows (which I assume is fairly linear in its action) to cause
rapid flap movement around the 425 point. The cowl flap would indeed follow
the change, but is that not the case in any governor or thermostatically
controlled system? Just speculating, as I have no real experience in design
of such a system.
Regarding the Evert Hatch RV-4, do you have details of this article? I
assume Power Sport is a magazine. Is the eductor in the shape of a venturi
at the exhaust pipe exit? The ideal system might use both a thermostat to
chase the ideal CHT and a eductor to cause air flow to vary with power
settings. Peter.
Peter Hanna, RDM Corp, 4-508 Weber St. North, Waterloo, Canada, N2V1K4,
B: 519 746 8483 X224, F: 519 746 3317,
Email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Air Tightness |
>Mickey:
>
> As you pointed out, the boots have been discussed before, and their
>installation results in significant reduction in cabin cold air from the
>outside. IMO sealing the skinns will not make a significant difference, and
>may result in more smoking rivets.......
>
> Cabin noise can be significantly reduces by adding a floor over the
>stiffeners, with closed cell foam (available frome Spruce & Speciallty)
>between the stiffeners. Also, if you have an exhaust system with straight
>pipes, find a way to point them down. I think (but am not sure) that Veterman
>now has curved extensions for his straight pipe system. Call him for advice.
>
>Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
>wstucklen(at)aol.com
You're right. The turn downs on the Vetterman SS cross-over make a big
difference. I was about to invest in a Bose headset. It was even loud with
ear plugs and my Telex ANR 4000. I just put some turn downs on a couple of
weeks ago. The reason the turn downs are not on the SS cross-over is
because of the many varied positions possible because of the ball joints.
The mild steel pipes (Vetterman) had the turn downs. (By the way, I have
the 4 pipe mild steel system for sale. The only reason I changed was to
increase the cabin heat which it did. You're also right about the flap arm
slots in F605. I don't suppose the guys with electric flaps have this
problem. I also have an air leak through the seam between the tip up canopy
and the forward skin. This air is coming through the notches in the
bulkhead. I just haven't gotten around to sealing them yet, but you can bet
I'll have them sealed before next winter.
Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcahoon(at)intellinet.com (David Cahoon) |
Well, it time to put the canopy on my RV-4. I have the frame
installed and it looks good. I had to do a little bending but not much. I
would appreciate any tips and tricks on the remainder of the challange.
Looking at several around the area the main problem seems to be the skirt
fitting good. Looking at the next step I need to fit the forward skin to the
frame. It says to cut a notch in the fwd skin to fit around the frame to
tube support and leave trimming to later. There will be some need to fill
the gap left due to frame missalingment. What is the best filler, metal or
bondo or what?
Like to hear your idea on all of the above. Thanks! --dwc->
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
Reply to: Glider towing
Experimental Aircraft are prohibited from "compensation for hire". If you are
planning to get PAID for or "COST-SHARE" your work - forget it. "Exibition"
(i.e. air shows) or "FREE" stuff is a gray area and will be dealt with on an
individual basis by the FAA. -Elon
--------------------------------------
From: Earl Brabandt
Re: towing w/ an experimental--
The question is, is it specifically NOT allowed by the FARs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
>--------------
> Well, it time to put the canopy on my RV-4. I have the frame
>installed and it looks good. I had to do a little bending but not much. I
>would appreciate any tips and tricks on the remainder of the challange.
>Looking at several around the area the main problem seems to be the skirt
>fitting good. Looking at the next step I need to fit the forward skin to the
>frame. It says to cut a notch in the fwd skin to fit around the frame to
>tube support and leave trimming to later. There will be some need to fill
>the gap left due to frame missalingment. What is the best filler, metal or
>bondo or what?
>Like to hear your idea on all of the above. Thanks! --dwc->
>
>--------------
I'm at exactly the same point. I spent most of last Saturday fitting that
front skin in place and it came out pretty good. Two things bother me about
the installation:
1) I had to leave about a 1/16"+ gap on the left side between the
canopy and the fuse to keep the skins from rubbing when the
canopy is opened. That's seems like a big gap and at 200mph,
8000 feet, and 32 degrees - I suspect it's going to be COLD too!
This just doesn't seem like a very good design. Did I miss
something or do you just stick some rubber weather stripping
between there?
2) While I was fitting the front skin I felt good about what I
was doing but now I'm not so sure. While the rear skins
lay over the *outsides* of the plexiglass for sure, on the
front skin this would seem next to impossible given the
angles and bend. I cut the front skin so that it slips
*under* the canopy frame tube, riviting it on from the bottom.
My assumption was that I could use some fiberglass around
this area to match the fit on the rear skins. Is this really
how this is done? The more I think about the more I think -
"YUCK"...
I was in Grand Auto (one of the finer auto stores in the area) this week, and
noticed the "gas-filled struts" for replacing 'hatch-back' struts in cars.
I've been wondering just how I was going to keep the canopy open and this
seems like a great idea. Has anyone figured out what the perfect lenght and
size is for the RV-4??
Merry Building
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-drilled wing skin alignment. |
I talked to Tom at Van's after building my first set of pre-drilled wings and
suggested a change to the manual as follows: hang/clamp the skins on the spar
as it is in the jig and mark the holes where the rib centerlines are, and
simply mount the ribs to the spar at the holes, with proper e.d. NO
MEASURING NECESSARY! Tom agreed, said he had already thought of that, and
said a change to the manual was in the works, and would follow.
Check six!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lewis <lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil> |
Subject: Chevy V-6 engine for RV6A
On Apr 3, '96 Bill Costello wrote: Does anyone have any negative information
on the Chevy V-6 engine?
Bill,
The use of this engine is still fairly new, so let's look for all the data we
can get, not just the negative info. If you are interested in this
arrangement, you should start by reading Richard Finch's book which includes
a lot of info on this model. BTW Finch is the author of the article you
mentioned (May 96 Kitplanes).
I for one am less than impressed with the attitude of those on the list who
want to shout down every party who exhibits an interest in auto engines.
This is not the same kind of encouragement and mutual support given by
homebuilders over the last 30 years, to those who would dare to try something
different, or fly something that wasn't made in either Wichita or Vero Beach.
I may fly a spamcan now, but I'm certainly interested in alternatives to the
$20,000 engine for my RV.
Joe Lewis, Tampa Bay, RV6a empennage, Skylane 4844D, jwlewis(at)hqsocom.af.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
>> > know that Van has towed his glider with a RV6. Has anyone else tried this?
>> > What tow hook arrangement was used. Any info would be appreciated
> >Dan Morris
>> >Morristec(at)aol.com
>> Is this allowed in the FAR's????????
>I don't have time to look up the FAR, but as I recall, glider towing in
>an Experimental Class aircraft is explicitly prohibited by a FAR.
>On the other hand, I believe it's possible to get a waiver. How possible
>probably depends on the grace of your local FSDO.
>Cal Brabandt
Dan,
don't know about a waiver, but I do know that on the prepinted paper that
the inspector brought with him, with balnk spaces on it (to be filled in),
to authorize my plane to fly, it stated 'no towing'. Now as to the FARs, I
don't know, but I took it to mean that I couldn't tow ANY thing. This paper
is the one that stated how much time I would have to fly off (20 hours)
before I could carry a passenger, if it was cleared for night flight, IFR
etc., and what radius of the home field I could fly off the hours (100 miles).
John D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WCannon313(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Gear leg fairings |
I am an RV-6 builder getting quite close to the end. One of the jobs that I
have left is fitting the gear leg fairings. I have the Harrold F/G fairings
and one piece pants with powder coated gear legs. I am planning on bonding
the fairings at the trailing edge and then injecting them with foam.I know
some people have had problems with this set up failing after less than
perfect landings and I would like to benefit from any lessons learned the
hard way!!!!! Don Wentz mentioned that he had rebuilt his a couple of times
in a recent message.
Any and all hints appreciated
Walt Cannon Just a couple more months
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
| Subject: | Re: alternative engines |
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>From: lewisjw
>Subject: Chevy V-6 engine for RV6A
>On Apr 3, '96 Bill Costello wrote: Does anyone have any negative information
>on the Chevy V-6 engine?
>
>Bill,
>The use of this engine is still fairly new, so let's look for all the data we
>can get, not just the negative info. If you are interested in this
>arrangement, you should start by reading Richard Finch's book which includes
>a lot of info on this model. BTW Finch is the author of the article you
>mentioned (May 96 Kitplanes).
>I for one am less than impressed with the attitude of those on the list who
>want to shout down every party who exhibits an interest in auto engines.
>This is not the same kind of encouragement and mutual support given by
>homebuilders over the last 30 years, to those who would dare to try something
>different, or fly something that wasn't made in either Wichita or Vero Beach.
>
>I may fly a spamcan now, but I'm certainly interested in alternatives to the
>$20,000 engine for my RV.
>
>Joe Lewis, Tampa Bay, RV6a empennage, Skylane 4844D, jwlewis(at)hqsocom.af.mil
>
>
Amen
The brand L and Brand C engines may not be headed for extinction, but, they
are going to have a lot more company in the years to come. You're all
building airplanes, building an engine is not brain surgery.
Mike McGee sn23530
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dcahoon(at)intellinet.com (David Cahoon) |
Reply to Matt- From looking at others I think you are on the right track but
it need some finish work. You have me confused on right and left. On the
hinge side of the canopy (right on mine) the hinge stops at the point where
the frame/tube brace meets. I fact the hinge fits neatly into the edge of
the flat brace. At that point the frame bends up slightly and the cockpit
rail angles down. At this point on both sides a wedge is built to seal the
gap. The wedge is made from sheet alum. It fits from the fwd. hinge point to
the inst. panel. on both sides. It rivets on the cockpit railing and is such
that the square frame member sits on top but slightly offset to the outside
for sealing with foam strip. I will try to send you a fax later today with a
drawing.
On the front of the canopy, again you are on the way but there is a
lot of finish work left to do. The metal does go under the tube. After you
fit the canopy and skirt and everthing is in place and riveted on, you will
(1) seal the canopy/fwd skirt joint with silicone, then form a fillet with
fiberglass cloth and resin to make the "lip" or "lap", this blends with the
side skin. On the one I,ve seen as being the best job, there is a lot of
glass and bondo work.
--dc-->
David Cahoon
Jonesboro, Arkansas
501-931-1700 (w)
501-931-0018 (h)
fax-931-1800
dcahoon(at)intellinet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
What are the opinions on sandblasting 4130 steel? I got a nifty little
sandblaster from Fleetwood (they sell car restoration tools) with about
a quart size hopper sitting on the top that works quite well for small
areas. Some of my 4130 parts have gotten a tiny bit of rust on them and
I thought that sandblasting with fine silica sand would be much more
effective than trying to sand in the corners. Well it did do a great job
until I looked at the surface with a 8x magnifying loupe. The grains are
definitely sharp, and I would never use it on 2024 Al.
Now I could use glass shot, but since this is not bead blasting set up
it would be a bit expensive. Anybody has any experience with
restoring/cleaning/sandblasting of welded up fuselages???
Thanks,
rich - 6a fuse skinning
=======================================================================
Rich Klee 4564 Chicago Ave.
rich_klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com Fair Oaks, CA 95628
(916) 863-1927 (will accept faxes)
=======================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
ichips.intel.com!cwbraban(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Glider towing |
The glider field that I flew at a few years back used an Experimental
for aerotow.
Chris
>
> Re: towing w/ an experimental--
>
> > The question is, is it specifically NOT allowed by the FARs. I've
> > looked over the regs concerning homebuilts pretty carefully over
> > the years and don't recall ever seeing anything disallowing glider
> > towing with a homebuilt (aside from all that "compensation or hire"
> > stuff). Do you have some reason to think it wouldn't be allowed?
>
> Now that I've thought about it a little more, I don't think there
> is a FAR prohibition. I think the problem is that the standard
> operating limitations that the FAA places on most experimental
> homebuilts prohibit towing gliders and carrying jumpers. Almost everyone
> gets the same limitations--you know, the stuff requiring an annual
> conditions check and all. It's a nearly standard list. If you
> can get the inspector to leave it off, it would probably be easier
> to comply with...
>
> Sec. 91.309 Towing: Gliders,
>
> (2) The towing aircraft is equipped with a tow-hitch of a kind, and
>
> installed in a manner, that is approved by the Administrator;
>
> Cal
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Another RV web page |
My home page, complete with links to my RV-6A project, is up on the web. It
can be found at http://www.villagenet.com/~scottg
All comments are welcome.
-Scott N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)mailhost.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Gear leg fairings |
> ...I would like to benefit from any lessons learned the
> hard way!!!!! Don Wentz mentioned that he had rebuilt his a couple of times
> in a recent message.
You should contact Don directly, he's not on the RV-list. His addr
is don_wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com. Please forward any info to the list. Don
really has gotten an education, after doing his 3 gear leg rebuilds. He
got a lot of good info in his latest rebuild from Gl.. Glas... those plastic
airplane guys, and says he's confident he has a good job this time. They do
look really nice too, very thin cross section.
But after seeing what he's had to do to get them that way, I'm personally
sticking with the metal ones.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM |
| Subject: | Would like a bitmap of an RV-6 or -6A |
Hi,
I have been trying to get my hands on a bitmap (a "*.BMP" file) of an
RV-6 or -6A to put up on my screen-saver. Does anyone have a file
they can to send me?
A picture of one of Van's planes, or your own, ought to do the trick!
It helps keep up the motivation factor while at work, plus lets peers
see what the heck "I'm building a plane in my garage" will look like
in a few years!
You can reply directly to me... thanks a lot!
Stephen Heinlein (sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Pre-Drilled Skins |
Hi everyone:
I feel very fortunate to have the new pre-drilled and pre-trimmed empennage kit.
I completed the HS and VS in three weeks working a few hours each day. It has
gone together very nicely. I'm can that I haven't had to do alot of measuring
and predrilling, Although I still double check my measures for rib and spar
placements. I haven't had many problems with alignment of the skins to the ribs
and spars. My rear spars are already pre-drilled. Only the front spars need
drilling. My manual indicated to mark the center lines on all the flanges (ribs
and front spars) then lay the skin over the assembled skelton. After clecoed,
then you check to see if you can see the center lines through the pre-marked
lines. In most cases, the center lines have appeared centered in the holes. A
slight adjusted with a rib or spar was needed in just a few places. With
everything then clamped then you drill the ribs and spars using the pre-drilled
holes in the skins. I have thus far really enjoyed the work and thank Vans for
their latest improvements.
Ron Caldwell
RV6A (Working on Rudder Week 4)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Alternative Engines (AE) |
REGARDING Alternative Engines (AE)
Some recent comments have made me reflect on some of my postings in the past.
I guess I may have been interpreted as negative or down on the possibilities
of other engines. Nothing can be farther from the truth. There are some
wonderful engine geometries that I think should be explored and experimented
with.
However, the common denominator I see from all of the AE people is they are
looking for an alternative to $20,000 they are not looking for an
intrinsically better engine design. The whole focus is to drive the COST out
of the propulsion unit. That is where I think some of their efforts are
either naive or misguided.
We all put our faith in the life and reliability of current certified
engines. By the time you re-manufacture and AE to get the SAME RELIABILITY
you have similar costs.
Take only ONE component from this weeks popular chev V-6 and compare it to a
certified motor.
THE CHEV CRANK is a mass produced cast iron (not even nodular iron) CASTING!
There is no metallurgical inspection and there is only a dimensional check of
the journal tolerances. You can buy a new one for about $300 and get a $45
core reground for $80-$130. Now tell me you are going to spin it 5,000 RPM,
hold it there for 2-3 hours and then fly a short trip across the Grand Canyon
with your first born in the right seat.
A CERTIFIED CRANK is an, electric-arc-melted, triple vacuum degassed, 4130 (or
better), heat treat/annealed, ground and inspected, STEEL FORGING. In
addition, the steel pour is certified with a metallurgical inspection to
verify the constituent alloys. The heat time/day and lot are recorded and
become part of the crank's heritage. New cranks can cost $3,000-$6,000
depending on engine.
As you can see there is a slight difference in cost just for a crank. Now
look at the rods, cam, roller rockers etc. AND Prop Reduction Unit for the
V-6. What do you think the cost will be?
Everyone on this list is technically driven. We all appreciate new ideas,
technology breakthroughs, and intrinsically better designs. But look what
everyone is paying for engines. Half the folks are buying new ($18.5K) and
the others are paying over $10K for a rebuild. Why are they doing that? Why
not look for a 2X run-out engine with only new rings and TOH for about $5K. I
think they understand and appreciate the reliability issue. Stock auto
conversions don't have the same reliability because they are low stress ground
pounders. They can be brought up to that reliability but the cost will rise
markedly.
I can't remember any AE idea being criticized on this list. However, some have
proposed getting "something for nothing" and we know that ain't true
(especially in aviation!). -Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler) |
| Subject: | Re: Sandblasting |
>
>What are the opinions on sandblasting 4130 steel? I got a nifty little
>sandblaster from Fleetwood (they sell car restoration tools) with about
>a quart size hopper sitting on the top that works quite well for small
>areas. Some of my 4130 parts have gotten a tiny bit of rust on them and
>I thought that sandblasting with fine silica sand would be much more
>effective than trying to sand in the corners. Well it did do a great job
>until I looked at the surface with a 8x magnifying loupe. The grains are
>definitely sharp, and I would never use it on 2024 Al.
>Now I could use glass shot, but since this is not bead blasting set up
>it would be a bit expensive. Anybody has any experience with
>restoring/cleaning/sandblasting of welded up fuselages???
Rich:
Years ago I restored an Aeronca Champ and had the fuselage commercially
sandblasted using silica sand. In my opnion, no harm was done. It cleaned
everything perfectly and I immediately coated with epoxy primer and
topcoated with Imron. The 4130 will begin to oxidize immediately after
sandblasting just from the moisture in the air, so top coating must be done
right away. The topcoat adheres well as a result of the "roughening" from
the sandblasting process.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing, Van's AirForce, RV-4 in progress, N722DW
= 347 Krattley Lane
= Hudson, WI 54016
= 715-386-1239
= email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | New COmpleted RV4 airframe for Sale |
As many of you know, a good friend of mine, Doug Donaldson, owner of
Aircraft Parts of Arizona, was killed in the crash of his Varga Kachina.
Just days prior to the crash, Doug and Scott McDaniels (who now works in
Van's prototype shop) completed DOug's RV-4 kit.
This aircraft is now, sadly, for sale. It is a completed RV-4 empennage,
wings, fuselage, and finishing kit. (in other words, no engine,
instruments, paint, upholstry, avionics, or instruments are included).
Most of the work was done by Scott, so the workmanship is magnificent.
We have set the initial asking price competitively with what it would
cost someone to purchase the RV-4 kit and have it built by a
proffessional builder: $28,000.
Please send your inquiries to me via privat email at: barnhart(at)crl.com
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines (AE) |
>REGARDING Alternative Engines (AE)
>
**** snip *****
>
>We all put our faith in the life and reliability of current certified
>engines. By the time you re-manufacture and AE to get the SAME RELIABILITY
>you have similar costs.
>
>Take only ONE component from this weeks popular chev V-6 and compare it to a
>certified motor.
>
>THE CHEV CRANK is a mass produced cast iron (not even nodular iron) CASTING!
>There is no metallurgical inspection and there is only a dimensional check of
>the journal tolerances. You can buy a new one for about $300 and get a $45
>core reground for $80-$130. Now tell me you are going to spin it 5,000 RPM,
>hold it there for 2-3 hours and then fly a short trip across the Grand Canyon
>with your first born in the right seat.
Elon,
... as a GM employee, I would take issue with your implication of
lack of quality control.
Actually I work for Hughes (part of Hughes-Delco Electronics - a
part of GM), and am more familiar with the quality issues in Delco
Electronics on the electronics side of the automotive house.
The Delco Electronics product manufacturing processes (engine
control units & radios) are highly automated for repeatability, quality
testing is automated, and the Delco standards for autos are in most ways
higher than the MIL-Specs we must meet at Hughes for fighter aircraft radar
systems.
The volume of crankshaft production is so high for GM, I bet the
manufacturing and quality procedures are _much_ tighter than Lycoming.
After all, the only reason Lycoming does a 100% test is because they have
little faith in their (or their sub-contractor's) production process
_repeatability_ (I had heard most forged cranks are made in S. America or
old Eastern bloc locations, and just machined here - I'll try and find that
article). Even with this, defects such as the VAR cranks get through.
Automated production and testing, carefully done, I believe is better than
individual hand inspection.
Do you have any actual evidence that says these V-6 cranks are low
quality parts?
Think of the image GM would get if even 0.1% of their V-6 cranks
would break in the normal life of a car/van/truck! One way or other, these
cranks are very carefully made and inspected. When did you last hear of a
broken GM crank? When did you last replace a modern electronic engine
control unit? And autos get much less maintenance than our aircraft
engines!
Having said that, these cranks are made for auto/trucks, and may
(but do they really? and by how much?) face different loads and stresses in
an aircraft. This is the bit I believe needs to be carefully examined, not
the quality of the basic crankshaft, but the suitability for a different
application.
Mass production _does_ drive costs down, and I for one would be
happy with a reliable engine that wore out (but didn't break!) in 500 to
700 hours if I could buy a brand-new factory replacement for $1800 ...
hell, I'm probably going to pay $5000 for new cylinders for my run-out
O-320-E2G, and given the history of Lycoming top end weaknesses, the
chances of them making it to 2000 hours are pretty slim. The original
certified engine in a certified Grumman needed a TOH at 1100 hours!
But, having said that, I personally don't want to be a life test
technician for a new application for an auto engine ... :^) ... but I wish
others would, so we all can benefit in the future.
Good luck to those paving the way, but please don't deride the
quality of modern mass-produced parts ....
... Gil Alexander ... I even actually own 2 of the V-6s,
a 94 Astro Van and a 94 Chev S-10 Blazer
And I am a GM employee!
>
March 24, 1996 - April 05, 1996
RV-Archive.digest.vol-bg