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RV-Archive.digest.vol-cc
November 02, 1996 - November 14, 1996

>randall(at)edt.com >http://www.edt.com/homewing > How does a Chevy Impala become a runaway? Failing to tie the tail during hand proping?? Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Subject: Re: WARNING - This is a serious riveting mistake you may be making
w... >I am curious if anybody has made the same error, I have never seen >it mentioned here before. Unfortunately, I didn't explain the procedure >properly to my sons, so am now drilling out about 200 rivets in the fuselage. > >Well, as they say, better finding out now, than at FAA certification time ! > >Scott Johnson / Chicago > >rvgasj(at)mcs.com > >P.S. All are welcome to our rivet drilling out party !!!!! > > Scott, and others: If you used the rivet length spec'd in the plans, you will be fine. I'm curious, why at this stage of the construction, are you still checking every rivet? Seems that after 1/2 of one control sfc you'd be able to eyeball a bad one... Of course, if you need the practice drilling out rivets,.... Call Paul McReynolds, and get his opinion. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com (Stephen Paul Johnson)
Subject: RV-8 Wings and Autopilots
Hi all, There has been some talk lately about autopilot options, and I would like to add my $.02 worth. It seems that those of us at the wing construction stage face the autopilot decision, and it's the one right now with the biggest financial implications. The manufacturers available seem to be Navaid, S-Tec, and Century, anyway there are several adds in Trade-A-Plane for both S-Tec and Century systems from various avionics shops. I want to go with at least a single axis system, and intend to be certified for IFR. I know that right now a non-certified autopilot is legal for IFR in experimental aircraft, but I must confess that I'm concerned with the FAA changing the rules - they have done it done it before. I remember the impact on me when I had to put a transponder in my Citabria and get it checked periodically for accuracy of the altitude encoder. Anyway, I'm beginning to have a radical thought on the subject. What if we got together and negotiated a group discount with a manufacturer? I imagine Mooney and Beech combined put out less than 200 singles last year, and we have about that number of wing kits going into construction in a year, certainly more if we include the RV-6 kits. I would prefer that Van's take this on as they have with Lycoming, but the thought occurred to me to at least propose it to the list. The ideal arrangement would allow the purchase of the installation kit first which just would include the servos and hardware, postponing the autopilot purchase. Steve Johnson RV-8 #80121 building VS skeleton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Rivets: a really silly question
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Hey -- Can anyone explain how rivets are made in the first place? -J -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg 14190 47th Ave N. Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Wings and Autopilots
Stephen Paul Johnson wrote: > > Hi all, > >>>> snipped >>>>> > There has been some talk lately about autopilot options, and I would > like to add my $.02 worth. What if we got together and negotiated a group > discount with a manufacturer? > I imagine Mooney and Beech combined put out less than 200 singles last > year, and we have about that number of wing kits going into > construction in a year, certainly more if we include the RV-6 kits. I > would prefer that Van's take this on as they have with Lycoming, but > the thought occurred to me to at least propose it to the list. The > ideal arrangement would allow the purchase of the installation kit > first which just would include the servos and hardware, postponing the > autopilot purchase. > > Steve Johnson > RV-8 #80121 > building VS skeleton I would be interested in this... Please let me know if you get enough interest to pursue it. Rick(at)CCC.HENN.TEC>MN>US ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Potential rivet-length-checking mistake
Date: Nov 02, 1996
> If you are checking rivets on dimpled skin, you cannot simply > assume that if you cannot pass the rivet checker over the rivet > it meets minimum length. This is because the rivet checkers arms > do not ride over the dimpled metal (the AVERY tool has to wide of > a cutout in it). When checking dimpled rivets, I eyeballed the length (you get a pretty good feel for the look after a few hundred rivets) and used the rivet diameter as a cross-check. You're going to over-squish a few this way, but I feel it's a pretty reliable method provided you started with the proper length rivets in the first place. -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg 14190 47th Ave N. Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K8DO(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
Nice shot ! my laugh of the morning... Denny ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
>No, but I think I heard there was an Ivoprop and some ATS tools in the trunk >and apparently some substandard, off-brand primer on the front fender. Seems >it was also below minimums, didn't have a proper taxi clearance and had no >Navaid autopilot. It was also closer than 500 ft to a man made structure >proceeding in an unsafe manner as it struck Ken's plane. Dispite these >contributing factors, I think it's clear that the GM electronic ignition was >to blame. > >Gary VanRemortel >vanremog(at)aol.com > FINALLY: HAHAHAHAAHhahahahaha!!! A little levity here!!!! Thanks, Gary...... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: Don Mack <donmack@super-highway.net>
Subject: Re: Rivets: a really silly question
Joe Larson wrote: > > Hey -- > > Can anyone explain how rivets are made in the first place? > > -J > > -- > Joe Larson -- Well first there's a mommy and daddy rivet who are in love..... Don Mack donmack@super-highway.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lm4(at)juno.com (Lawrence E Mac Donald)
Date: Nov 02, 1996
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com>
Subject: Re: Saturday Flight Tests at the OMABP
>twood wrote: > >> I disagree that that is a safe attitude. Sorry if I pounded the podium too >> hard, but I am surprised that many (most?) of you don't find this attitude >> risky. > >Terray, > >I spent most of my ten year stint in the Navy flying S-2s, P-2s, and P-3s, >most of it at 100'-200', doing 45 degree banked turns at night. I, now in >retirement, find 10'-20' quite comfortable in my homebuilt miniMAX with a >homebuilt 1/2 VW engine. What really gives one a lot of confidence is sitting >up there day after day with a 15 hour student trying to make trash out of a >Cessna 172. Different experiences give different perspectives to the task of >flying. > >Personally,-- you couldn't get me in a helicopter for love nor money !! > >Bob Moore >PANAM (retired) >20,000+ > > Bob, Looks to me like you have earned the right to fly or not fly in just about anything you want. However, as you probably have already heard, Take care and fly safe, Terray ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: "Roy Burkhead" <snaproll(at)peaka.net>
Subject: Re: WARNING - This is a serious riveting mistake you may be making
without knowing it ! The guage measures the height of the shop head only. In the case of a dimple the measurement is from the top of the shop head to the dimple, not the surrounding skin surface. Of course, this assumes you can get into a position to get a good look at the guage. It's probably better to get a good mental image of what the good shop head looks like and use your judgement and you calibrated eyeball. Scott Johnson wrote: > > If you are using a rivet length checker that is designed like this > (for example, AVERYS) : > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Normal Correct Use To Determine Minimum length: > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxx xxx ) Minimum driven height is .5 the rivet diameter, > a 40 rivet therefore must stick out at least > 1.5/32 of an inch > > If this gauge cannot slide over the finished rivet end, > then it meets minimum length criteria, > > **************************************************************** > **** THIS GAUGE DOES NOT WORK IN THE FOLLOWING CASE ************ > **************************************************************** > > If you are checking rivets on dimpled skin, you cannot simply > assume that if you cannot pass the rivet checker over the rivet > it meets minimum length. This is because the rivet checkers arms > do not ride over the dimpled metal (the AVERY tool has to wide of > a cutout in it). > > Therefore if you have a rivet > that just meets minimums by this method, you will find when you > account for the dimple that sticks out over the rivet shank, that > it will be considerably shorter than the required minimum. In > fact, we found that it was about 1/32 instead of the 1.5/32 for > the minimum ( 33% is significant, even though the measurement is small). > > This mistake is easiest to make when you are using the rivet checker > to check rivets in non-dimpled skin along side of dimpled skin ( > especially when its late and you are tired, or are having two teenagers > helping you). > > I am curious if anybody has made the same error, I have never seen > it mentioned here before. Unfortunately, I didn't explain the procedure > properly to my sons, so am now drilling out about 200 rivets in the fuselage. > > Well, as they say, better finding out now, than at FAA certification time ! > > Scott Johnson / Chicago > > rvgasj(at)mcs.com > > P.S. All are welcome to our rivet drilling out party !!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: "Roy Burkhead" <snaproll(at)peaka.net>
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
Not the old 'Chevy Impala with an Ivoprop and sub-standar primer and Navaid autopilot and GM ei running below minimuns' debate again! We should just leave this in the capable hands of the NTSB and FAA. After all, they are here to help us. ;-) > > No, but I think I heard there was an Ivoprop and some ATS tools in the trunk > > and apparently some substandard, off-brand primer on the front fender. Seems > > it was also below minimums, didn't have a proper taxi clearance and had no > > Navaid autopilot. It was also closer than 500 ft to a man made structure > > proceeding in an unsafe manner as it struck Ken's plane. Dispite these > > contributing factors, I think it's clear that the GM electronic ignition was > > to blame. > > > > Gary VanRemortel > > vanremog(at)aol.com > > Let's sue GM for product liability! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Angiulo <mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: WARNING - This is a serious riveting mistake you may be makingwithout
knowing it !
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Interesting that is not what I heard. I was told that you did measure from the flat surface and not from the dimple. It did seem strange to me. I think it was in the Jepp sheet metal book. I'm going to go look that up cause I bet I now have a bunch of tiny shop heads... Also I was reading the new AOPA last night and there is an article on the new Cirrus which is supposed to be a new certified plane soon. Anyway the throttle linkage in the plane was just a single lever which by an assembly of "cams" as it was described controls both the CS prop and the MP for the engine. Is anyone familiar with such a system? I was thinking of going fixed pitch just to avoid having a second lever (I'm the easily confused type and always liked the simplicity of a single throttle knob - firewall for full power). Now I'm thinking it would be cooler to have a single lever CS arrangement. I'm sure this must have been tried before but I haven't seen anything in any of my books on it. Does anyone have a suggestion for more info? Thanks, -Mike mikeang(at)microsoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Roy Burkhead [SMTP:peaka.net!snaproll(at)matronics.com] Sent: Saturday, November 02, 1996 10:01 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: WARNING - This is a serious riveting mistake you may be makingwithout knowing it ! The guage measures the height of the shop head only. In the case of a dimple the measurement is from the top of the shop head to the dimple, not the surrounding skin surface. Of course, this assumes you can get into a position to get a good look at the guage. It's probably better to get a good mental image of what the good shop head looks like and use your judgement and you calibrated eyeball. Scott Johnson wrote: > > If you are using a rivet length checker that is designed like this > (for example, AVERYS) : > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Normal Correct Use To Determine Minimum length: > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxx xxx ) Minimum driven height is .5 the rivet diameter, > a 40 rivet therefore must stick out at least > 1.5/32 of an inch > > If this gauge cannot slide over the finished rivet end, > then it meets minimum length criteria, > > **************************************************************** > **** THIS GAUGE DOES NOT WORK IN THE FOLLOWING CASE ************ > **************************************************************** > > If you are checking rivets on dimpled skin, you cannot simply > assume that if you cannot pass the rivet checker over the rivet > it meets minimum length. This is because the rivet checkers arms > do not ride over the dimpled metal (the AVERY tool has to wide of > a cutout in it). > > Therefore if you have a rivet > that just meets minimums by this method, you will find when you > account for the dimple that sticks out over the rivet shank, that > it will be considerably shorter than the required minimum. In > fact, we found that it was about 1/32 instead of the 1.5/32 for > the minimum ( 33% is significant, even though the measurement is small). > > This mistake is easiest to make when you are using the rivet checker > to check rivets in non-dimpled skin along side of dimpled skin ( > especially when its late and you are tired, or are having two teenagers > helping you). > > I am curious if anybody has made the same error, I have never seen > it mentioned here before. Unfortunately, I didn't explain the procedure > properly to my sons, so am now drilling out about 200 rivets in the fuselage. > > Well, as they say, better finding out now, than at FAA certification time ! > > Scott Johnson / Chicago > > rvgasj(at)mcs.com > > P.S. All are welcome to our rivet drilling out party !!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: "Roy Burkhead" <snaproll(at)peaka.net>
Subject: Re: Saturday Flight Tests at the OMABP
twood wrote: > > >twood wrote: > > > >> I disagree that that is a safe attitude. Sorry if I pounded the podium too > >> hard, but I am surprised that many (most?) of you don't find this attitude > >> risky. > > > >Terray, > > > >I spent most of my ten year stint in the Navy flying S-2s, P-2s, and P-3s, > >most of it at 100'-200', doing 45 degree banked turns at night. I, now in > >retirement, find 10'-20' quite comfortable in my homebuilt miniMAX with a > >homebuilt 1/2 VW engine. What really gives one a lot of confidence is sitting > >up there day after day with a 15 hour student trying to make trash out of a > >Cessna 172. Different experiences give different perspectives to the task of > >flying. > > > >Personally,-- you couldn't get me in a helicopter for love nor money !! > > > >Bob Moore > >PANAM (retired) > >20,000+ > > > > > Bob, > Looks to me like you have earned the right to fly or not fly in just > about anything you want. However, as you probably have already heard, > > "To fly is heavenly, to hover, divine" > > Take care and fly safe, > > Terray There's something inherently wrong with an aircraft with wings that go round and round and make wappa-wappa noises..... Roy USN Avionics Tech, RA5C Vigilante, 1970-78 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 1996
From: kevin lane <kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: computerized painting
someone mentioned the ability to paint a RV6 using flight sim. software I believe. Would someone elaborate please. I don't own a CD rom drive, will this be a problem? Is the modelling the 3-D type where you can rotate the plane or just top/side/front view type stuff? I do have flt sim 5.0. kevin N3773(reserved) kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com>
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
> >>No, but I think I heard there was an Ivoprop and some ATS tools in the trunk >>and apparently some substandard, off-brand primer on the front fender. Seems >>it was also below minimums, didn't have a proper taxi clearance and had no >>Navaid autopilot. It was also closer than 500 ft to a man made structure >>proceeding in an unsafe manner as it struck Ken's plane. Dispite these >>contributing factors, I think it's clear that the GM electronic ignition was >>to blame. >> >>Gary VanRemortel >>vanremog(at)aol.com >> > >FINALLY: HAHAHAHAAHhahahahaha!!! A little levity here!!!! > >Thanks, Gary...... > > Paul TOLD you those auto engines were trouble. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com>
Subject: Re: Saturday Flight Tests at the OMABP
>> Bob, >> Looks to me like you have earned the right to fly or not fly in just >> about anything you want. However, as you probably have already heard, >> >> "To fly is heavenly, to hover, divine" >> >> Take care and fly safe, >> >> Terray > >There's something inherently wrong with an aircraft with wings that go >round and round and make wappa-wappa noises..... > >Roy >USN Avionics Tech, RA5C Vigilante, 1970-78 > > True, but you also have to wonder about landing an aircraft the size of a RA5C on a carrier. :() Terray ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 02, 1996
Subject: Re: WARNING - This is a serious riveting mistake you may be making
with << From: snaproll(at)peaka.net (Roy Burkhead) The guage measures the height of the shop head only. In the case of a dimple the measurement is from the top of the shop head to the dimple, not the surrounding skin surface. Of course, this assumes you can get into a position to get a good look at the guage. It's probably better to get a good mental image of what the good shop head looks like and use your judgement and you calibrated eyeball. Scott Johnson wrote: > > If you are using a rivet length checker that is designed like this > (for example, AVERYS) : > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Normal Correct Use To Determine Minimum length: > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxx xxx ) Minimum driven height is .5 the rivet diameter, > a 40 rivet therefore must stick out at least > 1.5/32 of an inch > > If this gauge cannot slide over the finished rivet end, > then it meets minimum length criteria, >> I have always used the gage as a "No Go" gage. That is, as soon as the gage cannot fit across the shop head (bucking bar side), then the rivet is set enough. I used the minimum height of .5 the dia. as a check that the rivet length I was using was long enough initially. You can also visually check the shop head of a rivet in an inaccessable area by pressing your finger in the shop head. An impression of the rivet will stay on your finger long enough to see what it looks like, for the diameter. After you have pressed your finger on enough good rivets, you'll start to be able to tell when they are too flat, also. Jim Ayers LOM M332A Ivoprop N47RV Maroon Marauder LesDrag(at)aol.com Thousand Oaks, ca. USA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: "Brian C. Dolan" <bdolan(at)netzone.com>
Subject: Prospective RV-6A builder quick questions.
Do to the voulume on this list, I'll try to keep this a brief as possible. Thanks in advance to all those who choose to help me out. I'm thinking about purchasing an RV-6A kit that has been briefly started. The kit is complete except for the "finishing kit". The only part constructed is the skeleton for the horizontal stab. Now on to the questions. What's the going rate for a kit like this? How much time are builders really putting in to complete an RV-6? Assuming an average quality VFR aircraft: How is that time broken down on: Airframe construction? Engine and related systems? Avionics/Instruments? Interior/Paint? (Big range here, I'm sure) How much of the time do you need a helper to assist you? How much time are the new quickbuild kits saving builders? Thanks again, Brian ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Dann_Parks(at)KTEH.pbs.org (Dann Parks)
Subject: RE: computerized painting
>>someone mentioned the ability to paint a RV6 using flight sim. software I >>believe. Would someone elaborate please. I don't own a CD rom drive, >>will this be a problem? Is the modelling the 3-D type where you can >>rotate the plane or just top/side/front view type stuff? I do have flt >>sim 5.0. kevin N3773(reserved) kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com There is a program called Flight Shop that allows you to design airplanes that you can then fly in Flight Sim 5. Not only can you design the aircraft in 3D -- wings, fuselage, etc. -- you can also "paint" it by applying graphics created in a computer paint program to the 3D model. This model is then imported into Flight Sim and you can fly it as well as watch it fly (in full 3D) from the chase plane or the ground -- just like any of the other planes in Flight Sim. Curt Reimer was kind enough to model some RV's (6, 6A). His are painted like the Van's prototypes. All you need to do is to bring those models into Flight Shop and repaint them with your own designs and then check 'em out in Flight Sim. Pretty cool! Curt will email the models to you on request. reimer(at)mbnet.com. HOWEVER, Flight Shop is NOT an easy program to use without some frustrating practice. It is a Windows program and it comes on floppies. You can use the Windows Paint program to create your designs, but might want something better, like Photoshop. It's a great way to experiment with paint ideas and actually see them in a (virtual) flying environment. Perhaps Curt will respond with more details... Dann Parks dann_parks(at)kteh.pbs.org starting 6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Prospective RV-6A builder quick questions.
You wrote: > >Do to the voulume on this list, I'll try to keep this a brief as possible. >Thanks in advance to all those who choose to help me out. > >I'm thinking about purchasing an RV-6A kit that has been briefly started. >The kit is complete except for the "finishing kit". The only part >constructed is the skeleton for the horizontal stab. Now on to the questions. > >What's the going rate for a kit like this? >How much time are builders really putting in to complete an RV-6? >Assuming an average quality VFR aircraft: >How is that time broken down on: Airframe construction? > Engine and related systems? > Avionics/Instruments? > Interior/Paint? (Big range here, I'm sure) >How much of the time do you need a helper to assist you? >How much time are the new quickbuild kits saving builders? > >Thanks again, > >Brian > > Hi Brian, Your questions will really be tough to answer. I would recommend the first thing you do is send for the info kit from Van's (unless you can't wait a week of two for your decision). This will give you the current prices for kits. Next you need to find out how old the kit you are considering is. One key question is: Are the skins on the horiz stab and wings pre- drilled. This will tell you if recent (both pre-drilled) or fairly old (neither pre-drilled). I would think the older the kit, the less you should pay for it since it will require more work. Lastly these planes have been built in less that three months to more than ten years. It all depends on how much time and energy you can afford to spend on them. (I met the guy who built his in less that three months and he worked about 18 hours a day on it!) I would suspect that the non-quick build kits average between 2000 and 3000 hours to build. Don't know much about the quick build kits. I realize that is a BIG range, but, again, it depends on how fast you work/ meticulous you are. The best thing would be to visit the kit with someone who has built several RV's, but that is probably not likely. I realize that this is sort of a non-answer, but hopefully it will give you some things to think about. Best regards, Bill Costello -- Bill Costello | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com | Building RV-6 | Reserv N97WC Want an extra hour and a half of energy per day with Super Blue Green products? Email for info or call 800-325-7544. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: kevin lane <kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: flame polishing canopy?
when I was buying acrylic sheets for a spa roof I noticed that Multi-Craft also fabricates plastic bins etc... After filing the edges they flame polish them to a clear glasslike finish with a quick pass of a hydrogen flame. I tried this with my MAP gas plumbing torch and seemed to accomplish the same results. It was nice to smooth the holes which were used to hold the sheets down to the rafters. Has anyone done the same with their canopy? I believe it is the identical material (plexiglass). Are there other problems I've missed? My spa roof is not cracking despite a high wind location. kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Checking set rivets
>You can also visually check the shop head of a rivet in an inaccessable area >by pressing your finger in the shop head. An impression of the rivet will >stay on your finger long enough to see what it looks like, for the diameter. > After you have pressed your finger on enough good rivets, you'll start to be >able to tell when they are too flat, also. >Jim Ayers LOM M332A Ivoprop N47RV Maroon Marauder LesDrag(at)aol.com Thousand Oaks, ca. Or, if your fingers are boney and don't indent well, you could use "Silly Putt". You could use modeling clay, but it leaves a residue and doesn't bounce as well as Silly Putty. Bob (really bored on a Sat. nite) Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: HVLP Gun
The Graco system includes a turbine and an air hose that looks like a fat garden hose. I am having very good luck with the system. I have the base color on and one of the trim colors on. One more trim color and it will be finished. It is Red, White, and Blue!!! the cheapest quote that I got for having the plane painted was $3500. I will have mine painted for less than $1000., including the Graco!!!. Jim jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Prospective RV-6A builder quick questions.
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Brian -- I didn't see any other responses in front of me, so I'll give it a try. > What's the going rate for a kit like this? A little less than the current new price, I think. > How much time are builders really putting in to complete an RV-6? I've heard times ranging from around 2000 to as much as 4000. It kind of depends upon how picky you are and how fast you work. It looks like 2000 is doable, 2500 more likely. 4000 means you're probably doing a lot of specialties, like re-engineering parts you don't like or doing a thousand-hour paint job. How frequently and for how long you work will matter, too. If you work in infrequent, short spurts, you'll waste a lot of time figuring out where you left off. Spending a little extra money on tools can also save time. > How is that time broken down on: Airframe construction? > Engine and related systems? > Avionics/Instruments? > Interior/Paint? (Big range here, I'm sure) A general rule of thumb: the airframe is half the job. > How much of the time do you need a helper to assist you? Some jobs are easier done with an extra pair of hands, but most of those can be done along if you figure some way to hold the work. For instance, they say you need two people to rivet the empennage skins, but I did mine alone. Wing skins, on the other hand, require two people for riveting. > How much time are the new quickbuild kits saving builders? A ton. 800 hours, or something like that. -J -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg 14190 47th Ave N. Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jagreen(at)mail.terra.net.au (James Green)
Subject: Re: Important Survey = Van's Aircraft On-line
Date: Nov 03, 1996
> >1. Have you visited the Van's Aircraft web site (located at >http://home.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/)? [Yes] >2. Are you: thinking about building an RV]? >3. If you are building an RV, what stage are you at? N/A >4. Which model? >[RV-4] >[RV-8] > >5. How did you hear about the Van's Aircraft Web Site? >[link from another site] > >6. Have you used Van's CompuServe e-mail address >[other (please specify)]? To ask about the RVator and info packs for O/seas > >7. Do you have a Van's Aircraft Accessories (Optional Parts) catalog? >[Yes] >8. If the entire up-to-date Accessories Catalog was on-line, would you >use it? >[Yes] > >9. If 24 hour toll-free on-line ordering was available, would you use >it? >[Yes I might] > >10. When was the last time you ordered something from Van's Aircraft? >[more than two years ago] > >11. If complete on-line technical support was available, would you use >it? >[Yes] > >12. Do you subscribe to the RVator newsletter? >[No], but I have in the past. approx. 4years ago > >13. How often do you access the Internet? >[once a day] >14. What state (or country) are you located in? AUSTRALIA, South Australia > >15. What is your name (optional)? James Green >16. What is your e-mail address (optional)? jagreen(at)terra.net.au > >Please list any specific comments or suggestions on what you would like >to see Van's Aircraft do on-line, or have on their website (this is >important, everything is considered). RVator Newsletter emailed to PAID subscribers, I consider this an important part of the RV instead of snail mail. James Green Williamstown South Australia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Message replies
You wrote: > >Maybe I'm a little tired tonight, but I'm noticing a HUGE increase in >"chatter" messages. >Sorry if I sound cranky, but I'm getting more mail, and less of the >info that matters. > >Ed Bundy >ebundy2620(at)aol.com > I'm afraid I have to second your opinion, Ed. Folks, I think the intent of this list is for discussions and Q&A about building, flying, buying RV's and very related topics. Chats and fun stuff are great -- somewhere else. Matt Dralle is maintaining an archive of all messages and making the archive available in several different formats. Those who have used the list a fair amount realize how very valuable this is. Let's all try to keep the chaff out of the list. Thanks. Best regards, Bill Costello -- Bill Costello | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com | Building RV-6 | Reserv N97WC Want an extra hour and a half of energy per day with Super Blue Green products? Email for info or call 800-325-7544. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: dieck(at)apexcomm.net (Robert Dieck)
Subject: Re: Saturday Flight Tests at the OMABP
>There's something inherently wrong with an aircraft with wings that go >round and round and make wappa-wappa noises..... > >Roy >USN Avionics Tech, RA5C Vigilante, 1970-78 > > Helecopters really don't fly they bet the air into submission! And when the engine quits you autorotate to death! Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: dieck(at)apexcomm.net (Robert Dieck)
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
> >>No, but I think I heard there was an Ivoprop and some ATS tools in the trunk >>and apparently some substandard, off-brand primer on the front fender. Seems >>it was also below minimums, didn't have a proper taxi clearance and had no >>Navaid autopilot. It was also closer than 500 ft to a man made structure >>proceeding in an unsafe manner as it struck Ken's plane. Dispite these >>contributing factors, I think it's clear that the GM electronic ignition was >>to blame. >> >>Gary VanRemortel >>vanremog(at)aol.com >> > >FINALLY: HAHAHAHAAHhahahahaha!!! A little levity here!!!! > >Thanks, Gary...... > > >It wasn't a little levity. It was a BIG CHEVY!!! Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: dieck(at)apexcomm.net (Robert Dieck)
Subject: Re: flame polishing canopy?
>when I was buying acrylic sheets for a spa roof I noticed that >Multi-Craft also fabricates plastic bins etc... After filing the edges >they flame polish them to a clear glasslike finish with a quick pass of a >hydrogen flame. I tried this with my MAP gas plumbing torch and seemed >to accomplish the same results. It was nice to smooth the holes which >were used to hold the sheets down to the rafters. Has anyone done the >same with their canopy? I believe it is the identical material >(plexiglass). Are there other problems I've missed? My spa roof is not >cracking despite a high wind location. kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com > > > I haven't gotten to the canopy yet but I have done quit on flame polishing of plexi. A small propane torch or a heat gun. The temps are very low. Its amazing to watch the edge of the plexi clear up and smooth out. I see no reason that in wouldn't work on the canopy BUT TEST IT FIRST. Prehaps someone may have a scrap that they can test and post the results to the list. Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Message replies
>Maybe I'm a little tired tonight, but I'm noticing a HUGE increase in >"chatter" messages. I'm not quoting anything specific as I'm not trying to... > >Sorry if I sound cranky, but I'm getting more mail, and less of the info that >matters. Hmmm....this post itself is going to create a lot of non-RV chatter. That's okay with me since I appreciate learning, laughing, laughing at, or being reminded of important things forgotten while reading each new post. On the messages that *I* don't find useful or pertinent the DELETE key works well. Rob Acker / RV-6Q E-mail: r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com RV-6Q Project: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: John E Musser <jemusser(at)tenet.edu>
Subject: Re: Rivets: a really silly question
What's love got to do with it??? On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Don Mack wrote: > Joe Larson wrote: > > > > Hey -- > > > > Can anyone explain how rivets are made in the first place? > > > > -J > > > > -- > > Joe Larson > -- > > Well first there's a mommy and daddy rivet who are in love..... > > Don Mack > donmack@super-highway.net > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allan W. Mojzisik" <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Prospective RV-6A builder quick questions.
Date: Nov 03, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC974.1026FB00 Brian wrote: I'm thinking about purchasing an RV-6A kit that has been briefly = started. The kit is complete except for the "finishing kit". The only part constructed is the skeleton for the horizontal stab. Now on to the = questions. What's the going rate for a kit like this? Brian, The general "rule" of thumb on an issue like this is that you = could be a gentleman and pay the man (or woman) what he paid Van's for = the kit less any shipping etc.... that he may have paid to get the kit = to his place. This should give you a significant enough "savings" that = you should be inclined to buy his "used" kit over a new one from Van's. = Now as I see it the more work done on the kit the less value it MAY have = depending on the workmanship. If it is excellent workmanship then pay = the price he paid for the kit and you have the work done free. If it is = done to the stage or beyond of a quick build then you may have to pay a = quick build price but remember you will have to convince the FAA that = you did 51% of the work and are eligible for an airmans repair cert. Be = sure to look at his receipts and get the price he paid. Also this is = assuming that everything is there and in excellent condition. (stored = properly etc...) If it is an older kit you will see it cost him a lot = less than a new one costs from Van's but there will be more work. If you = want to talk any more about this E-Mail me direct.....Al = prober(at)iwaynet.net ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC974.1026FB00 eJ8+IgAPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ACQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEkAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABydi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20AU01UUABydi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20A AAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABYAAABydi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20A AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAYAAAAJ3J2LWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbScAAgEL MAEAAAAbAAAAU01UUDpSVi1MSVNUQE1BVFJPTklDUy5DT00AAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYP AQAAAAQAAAAAAAADNDcBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAOAAA AFJFOiBSVi1MaXN0OiBQcm9zcGVjdGl2ZSBSVi02QSBidWlsZGVyIHF1aWNrIHF1ZXN0aW9ucy4A ORMBBYADAA4AAADMBwsAAwAKACwAEQAAACgBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcLAAMACgAbADUAAAA7AQEJgAEA IQAAADQ3ODRBMUEyNTkzNUQwMTE4RDJBNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwALkGAQOQBgAUBgAAEgAAAAsAIwAA AAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AKDGe9+dybsBHgBwAAEAAAA4AAAAUkU6IFJW LUxpc3Q6IFByb3NwZWN0aXZlIFJWLTZBIGJ1aWxkZXIgcXVpY2sgcXVlc3Rpb25zLgACAXEAAQAA ABYAAAABu8md33SioYRINVkR0I0qREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAA EwAAAHByb2JlckBpd2F5bmV0Lm5ldAAAAwAGEA5ebgkDAAcQUwQAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEJSSUFO V1JPVEU6SU1USElOS0lOR0FCT1VUUFVSQ0hBU0lOR0FOUlYtNkFLSVRUSEFUSEFTQkVFTkJSSUVG TFlTVEFSVEVEVEhFS0lUSVNDT01QTEVURUVYQ0VQVEZPUlRIRSIAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAB5BAAAdQQA AI8HAABMWkZ1AUCZuf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2BgbmcxMDMUUAsDbBBpMTgwAtFp LTH8NDQN8AzQGnMLVRRRC/KyYwBAIEIHIQOgdwNg3RPQOhstE1Ac0WMFQAqLGRnQMzYbHh4GSSdt KCB0aAuAawuAZyD3AaAIYAVAcAhwEXEAkCGygQOgUlYtNkEgIZCbBUAhUGEFQCKBIGIJ4eckQAiB GOB5IBPACsAT0MRkLgqFVGhlI3MEADogBaBtC1ARwCYwZXh8Y2UFMQIQBcAhUCYwIjsaQAMAcyFh IcAjgSIu7yYDAiAk8QqxdAqFBaAAgHh0cnUeUAmAJoIoAnNca2UnAQIgJ7doBbBpLnoCIQdAJRJi KTBOb28H4CwhLBAn83EKUBPAaSsqoSWWVyPRJytkZ2/dIaJyI+AmMCfCYSNzGdBzK9AhQnM/Cocb TxxTLLogJgNnCfAEkC1RIirg1ScAIimAZiFBdQbQLhK/A5EEAQpQMcgrRCPheQhgvyaxNXArMCRQ MWE00XQnAH8DggBwKzAKsCUAKAIDgij1BbF3A3IpHKAj0yYwCrDyaSswIFYAcDARJ8Yxk58HkAQg AHAlASFgcHAhovkRwGMuPsEjtTpiJQARgP52O9UuUTTQI6ImNC5RN3J/C1EncCkwJgEmkSiQOINn 3mk/8TgyMXAAkGcDABpAnmMAcAVACfAIYGdoKDD2cz/gIaFzNaA350KlONGdC4BjGdA08EBTYnU/ sWkmkSJ1EbBkNaAjgm//P/AxUjTwLgIxEQNhPEQtxP0kIUklEAngJoBAxARgFhDhOvFyayBkSWIu IkD2OyYhPXN2B0A24SORTUHWWT/EDbBwCfBkIaJMle9L8gOBPgIpMEk10CZkJ1L+bCcARFFQCSfy A6A6BhNQ/0QgLLE71Ty6OcI4Mj/TT8b/TDQDUAngULlMQy5VJSE00P8pgAXAJFA4MDnRNcExcC7A /0QgTCBHgAMQQFFS0jgyP5f/LlE6AlnMU5RHgAVAFhAHgP8G0EjRODID8FGgW2cqkUUh81PBKAJG QSNgN+dPQCsw+DUxJTW0S9U5wgrAJzGfGdBDEAJgMRU2YWlyUEKvXaE78SpxBJB0KTBCK6H3CHBY AxWgb2IRI/EmkRYQfydwBSE9okLxQLVTmykwQbxscy5iN4QikDbQbSGi9SPDZUjBeSFSIcArVEvB fznCC4BRWSqRT0AvAikwKNcTwEuxXPJvTxByJPE+lP87UFDXA5EG8ASBI3NeR0r1/wWgE8BBgSEw MXAVoD1VI8H/NmFJF3FSPJFJt11ja0Reg/840UunULNeQ0RCLlIHQGISjyUAS6Mh5DdjRS1NC3D/ AyAHgGDhZnFk0D7CaLAKhX96v3vPfN99736YHgFeAUD6aXbQeTTwZNCAUR+vHisvHo8fnx4cFTEA heAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMEDR+pSbybsBQAAIMEDR+pSbybsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAA UkU6IAAAAACE4A== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC974.1026FB00-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: Chatter about Chatter
Gentlemen and Ladies- I have found in the natural course of any endeavor, there are periodic lulls and gluts. At the present time I have noticed there is a lull in the list traffic related to useful and tangible builder info. Rather than allow the list to languish in its lethargy, I felt (perhaps wrongly... you be the judge) that we were in need of some levity if little else of value was transpiring (I see that some others had the same plan, and I salute you). Reading of OMABP Bill's good flight lifted me, then the response bummed me out. Talk about raining on the man's parade. I wanted to say at the time that some of you mean spirited types need an attitude transplant. Perhaps it's just jealousy or a desire for the author to raise themselves up by putting others down. Maybe some of these self professed great aviators are stuck in "parent" mode and can't fit into the "child" anymore. Perhaps everyone is in a serious mood before election time here in the states trying to figure out which nimrod to vote for. There just seems to be a seasonal funk pervading the list. I too am often distressed by the wasting of bandwidth (like I'm doing here) on seemingly trivial matters or the rehashing of previously hashed hash. Since I am still building (90% done, 90% to go), it has always been my fondest desire to get consistently high quality RV builder info from the list, and this is often the case. Lately, posts with good info have been few and far between, but I'm sure that things will pick up by and by. Hang in there everyone, keep pounding them rivets, keep your eyes on the prize and loosen up, huh ;^). Keep in mind that if building and flying your own sport planes weren't fun, someone would have to pay us to do it. I hope that most of you find my previous and future posts both informative and entertaining. Until Matt throws my skinny body off the list, I will continue to exercise my first amendment rights... but I promise to post no gratuitously funny stuff until after the new year. My $.04 (always corrected for Reagan era inflation) -N1GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TimRV6A(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: WARNING - This is a serious ...
> If you used the rivet length spec'd in the plans, you will be fine. I disagree. The rivets specified in the plans for the flap hinge attachment to the wing skin and to the flap itself are too short. At numerous other places in my project I've found the plans called for a rivet that was too short or too long. I always check, because a rivet that's too short produces insufficient shop head, and a rivet that's too long is more likely to bend. Tim Lewis RV6A Q #60023 TimRV6A(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Chatter: Re: Saturday Flight Tests at the OMABP
>There's something inherently wrong with an aircraft with wings that go >round and round and make wappa-wappa noises..... Yes, but there's something worse with an aircraft with wings that DON'T go round and round and still make wappa-wappa noises..... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read". PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax), Marton | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv/ | -------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Robert Moore <bobmoore(at)wwd.net>
Subject: Re: Chatter about Chatter
aol.com!Vanremog(at)matronics.com wrote: > I hope that most of you find my previous and future posts both informative > and entertaining. Until Matt throws my skinny body off the list, I will > continue to exercise my first amendment rights... but I promise to post no > gratuitously funny stuff until after the new year. Man does live by bread alone. Except maybe engineers. Bob Moore ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com>
Subject: Re: Chatter about Chatter
>Gentlemen and Ladies- >snip >Reading of OMABP Bill's good flight lifted me, then the response bummed me >out. Talk about raining on the man's parade. I wanted to say at the time >that some of you mean spirited types need an attitude transplant. Perhaps >it's just jealousy or a desire for the author to raise themselves up by >putting others down. Maybe some of these self professed great aviators are >stuck in "parent" mode and can't fit into the "child" anymore. Perhaps >everyone is in a serious mood before election time here in the states trying >to figure out which nimrod to vote for. There just seems to be a seasonal >funk pervading the list. >snip >-N1GV > > Well, since most of this diatribe appears to be directed at me, please allow me a few inches of bandwidth to respond. Obviously I have not been successful in communicating my concern as an aviation safety issue. I personally feel that discussion of safe flying attitudes and practices are worth far more bandwith and will contribute more to the longevity of you and your project than riveting or painting techniques. I used quotes from Bill's article about parts of his flight that didn't seem safe to me. I did not attack him personally as you have done to me. I have never "professed" to be a "great aviator" unless you mean a cautious and safe one. All that said, it seems that your view is prevalent in this forum. While I have received several private emails in support my comments, I'm not a safety missionary and I have no desire to try to force my views on anyone. Especially if they are perceived as "mean spirited" or prompted by "jealousy or a desire for the author to raise themselves up by putting down others." While I don't think that there is anything in any of my posts that support your contention, it is a waste of time to argue about it. My intention was not to act in the "parent mode" but in the "concerned peer" mode. If anyone wants to act in the "child mode" I think they picked the wrong hobby. And as an historical FWIW, the real damaging inflation occurred in the Carter administration. High interest rates (thanks to the Federal Reserve, not the administration) in the early Regean era brought inflation under control. Terray Wood ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Prospective RV-6A builder quick questions.
>Brian wrote: >I'm thinking about purchasing an RV-6A kit that has been briefly started. >The kit is complete except for the "finishing kit". The only part >constructed is the skeleton for the horizontal stab. Now on to the questions. >What's the going rate for a kit like this? Brian, not that it is representative or the going rate, but for your information. In Nov of 91 I got from Vans a list of kit purchasers who lived in my area. I called many of them, primarily to ask how hard it was to build the kit. One had a kit he had started on 4 years prior. Had the horz stab spars built, everything else of three kits (including phlogist. spar) was still in the original crates, un inventoried, but also unopened. Like yours, it was missing only the finish kit. As I talked to him, he stated that he would almost give it to some one. He finally stated that he wanted to get rid of the kits and the tools that he had gotten from Avery (he said $1500 worth, but he was going to keep the air compressor). He came up with the price of $500.00 for the tools and $1000.00 for the three kits. I did not try to talk him down nor up on the price. I went the next day to look at it, and back the next day with my cattle trailer and gave him a certified check for $1500.00 for the tools and three kits. He threw in the metal u channels he had made his rigs with. Upon inventory, there was nothing missing, and aside from a small spot of discoloration on a piece of the wing skin, there was nothing wrong with the material. I switched the registration at Vans from him to me, bought the discounted one time up grade on the plans and was on my way. No, it wasn't pre punched nor quick build, and the tools were not all chrome plated 450 horsepower things, but they built an RV 6 that flys. I hope you can find some one who you can do such a favor for, and vice versa. John D John Darby RV6 N61764 flying johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: autopilot
Bill, Thanks for the reply. Because we do not have an experimental category in Australia I need to install an approved system which the Navaid Devices device is not. The STEC system is approved for IFR flight. My question was whether anyone had seen the kit and knew the setup. I am currently fitting control systems and didn't want to put in my manual aileron trim and find it coflicted with the autopilot system. Anyone seen the STEC system installed? Leo leo(at)icn.su.oz.au >Leo Davies, > > STEC @ Mineral Wells has recently completed an RV kit, based on an >RV-6, and it is my understanding that it is now available. However, it is >expensive. If you are only looking for a single axis system, the nav-aid >devices unit is quite satisfactory and about 1/3 the cost of the STEC. > Bill Orcutt, RV-6A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PhilipR920(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Chicago Pneumatic Tool
I have acquired a CP air hammer identified on the case as "HAMMER , CP 4444, RUSAB, 9178C094. Anyone have info. as to specifications. Phil Rogerson philipr920(at)aol.com 6AQ #60057 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: "Anne B. Hiers" <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: fuel gauges
My back is now aginst the wall. I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. I would like to know what type of gauges others builders using, if they are happy with them or not and why. CRAIG HIERS RV-4 N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: "Roy Burkhead" <snaproll(at)peaka.net>
Subject: Van's online help
I had a major crash (computer) some time ago. Lost all my address book. Can someone tell me Van's online help email address? I thought it used to be on their web page, but I couldn't find it. Thanks in advance! Roy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RAINPOOF(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
I am also at the fuel gauge stage. I ordered senders from Van last week not bothering to ask if these senders include gauges, if not will these senders work with any gauges that I purchase at a later date? Also isn't it neccessary to have a gauge to test the swing of the sending float for empty/full accurracy? Jerry Engel RV-6A "ready to order fuselage" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dougweil(at)pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: Ammeter load
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Fellow Listers (especially Bob Nuckolls) Here's generic question on electrical systems (my Citabria has this problem): I just purchased this airplane and on the return flight home I noticed that as I add electrical load (nav lights, landing lights), the ammeter increases on the positive side up to a 30 amp reading when everything is on. Most airplanes I see seem to have a pretty steady ammeter reading as loads are added. Do you think the voltage regulator is not doing it's thing? Doug, President, MN Wing Van's AirForce ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart)
Subject: Jerry Harrold
Does anyone know what's going on with Jerry Harrold? I've gotton nothing but an anwering machine the last few times I've called him. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart barnhart(at)a.crl.com rv-6 sn 23744 Fitting the sliding canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Flying Safe (Chatter?)
>Well, since most of this diatribe appears to be directed at me, please allow >me a few inches of bandwidth to respond. Obviously I have not been >successful in communicating my concern as an aviation safety issue. I >personally feel that discussion of safe flying attitudes and practices are >worth far more bandwith and will contribute more to the longevity of you and >your project than riveting or painting techniques. I used quotes from Bill's >article about parts of his flight that didn't seem safe to me. I did not >attack him personally as you have done to me. I have never "professed" to >be a "great aviator" unless you mean a cautious and safe one. > >All that said, it seems that your view is prevalent in this forum. While I >have received several private emails in support my comments, I'm not a >safety missionary and I have no desire to try to force my views on anyone. >Especially if they are perceived as "mean spirited" or prompted by "jealousy >or a desire for the author to raise themselves up by putting down others." >While I don't think that there is anything in any of my posts that support >your contention, it is a waste of time to argue about it. > >My intention was not to act in the "parent mode" but in the "concerned peer" >mode. If anyone wants to act in the "child mode" I think they picked the >wrong hobby. >Terray Wood Terray, I changed the subject line. I don't think the "flying safe" subject is chit chat. I can understand why you have not received much support via the list as most people don't like to be flamed. I didn't feel that you were being "preachy" but were voicing genuine concern. I enjoyed reading Bill's post. In it, he describes the joy of RV ownership better than most people can. However, I probably wouldn't feel as safe flying as low as Bill does. I think we each have certain rules that we fly by and my set of rules may not fit other fliers. As an example. A local pilot, who has very good pilot skills but, in my opinion lacks good judgement on occasion, test flew a local RV-6A. With a total of 5 minutes on the airplane, he did a redline, high speed pass with a sharp pull up at the end of the runway. You know, I like to watch high speed passes as much as the next guy but I've never done one and don't intend to. Besides violation of a few FAR's, I don't believe it is safe operating procedure, especially with a low time airplane. Another thing that we all have to be aware of is public perception of aviation and buzz jobs and other low level performances don't gain us many friends. By the way, the last "fly-by with a sharp pull up" that I saw resulted in the destruction of a new Laser and the deaths of two people. This occured at our EAA chapter meeting. It kind of hits home when, one minute you're talking to a nice guy and admiring his airplane and, a little while later, he and his passenger are killed in front of their friends and families. Private aviation doesn't have a very good safety record and every time an "experimental" airplane crashes, we loose not only friends in aviation but we loose the goodwill of the public which could come back to haunt us in the future. Well, off the soapbox and back to the shop. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <Rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: Re: Van's online help
Roy Burkhead wrote: > > I had a major crash (computer) some time ago. Lost all my address book. > Can someone tell me Van's online help email address? I thought it used > to be on their web page, but I couldn't find it. > > Thanks in advance! > Roy Here is the e-mail address to Tom at Van's... 76455.1602(at)compuserve.com -- Rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Ming Ho <mho(at)post.cis.smu.edu>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
> I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. > I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, > or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. > I would like to know what type of gauges others builders > using, if they are happy with them or not and why. I have found the Skysports capacitance gauges very accurate. Please keep in mind that one needs to calibrate it, so as to match the fuel quantity remaining to the corresponding 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full... since the wings are somewhat upwardly sloped. I have also found the fuel totalizer in the Rocky Mountain engine monitor fairly accurate. Kind regards, Ming ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Beth & Ben Armstrong <baa(at)texas.net>
Subject: Re: MS FLIGHT SIMULATOR
>You're welcome. BTW, those www.iup.edu files might be the original >version. If anyone would like version 2, just email me. Would you please email version 2 to us? Thanks a lot! Beth & Ben Armstrong ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Re: Van's online help
76455.1602(at)CompuServe.COM >I had a major crash (computer) some time ago. Lost all my address book. > Can someone tell me Van's online help email address? I thought it used >to be on their web page, but I couldn't find it. > >Thanks in advance! >Roy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Bruce Oliver <75274.3426(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Van's online help
Vans address: Internet:vans76455.1602(at)compuserve.com. If you are CompuServe, then just the number. Bruce-wings-fuse ordered. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: lsmith(at)coastalnet.com (Louis E. Smith Jr.)
Subject: Fuel Pump for IO-Lycomings
I have a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 and am looking for an electric fuel pump. What brand pumps have you guys with the injected engines been using. Also, what prices have you been paying and sources for these pumps. If you would prefer to reply directly, my e-mail is lsmith(at)coastalnet.com. Thanks, Louis Smith RV8 #80126 Flaps under construction ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Dean Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: flame polishing canopy?
kevin lane wrote: > > when I was buying acrylic sheets for a spa roof I noticed that > Multi-Craft also fabricates plastic bins etc... After filing the edges > they flame polish them to a clear glasslike finish with a quick pass of a > hydrogen flame. I tried this with my MAP gas plumbing torch and seemed > to accomplish the same results. It was nice to smooth the holes which > were used to hold the sheets down to the rafters. Has anyone done the > same with their canopy? I believe it is the identical material > (plexiglass). Are there other problems I've missed? My spa roof is not > cracking despite a high wind location. kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com I worked for awhile for a company that produced (medical) machines which were covered with acrylic hoods. All of the edges of the plastic were treated this way -although I was not directly involved in the process. Seemed to work well at preventing cracks. Incidently (for some applications) a good way to make holes in plexy is to heat a piece of tubing (even an empty shell casing) with a torch and 'punch' the holes. Look ma -no stress risers! Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Dean Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Ammeter load
Doug Weiler wrote: > > Fellow Listers (especially Bob Nuckolls) > > Here's generic question on electrical systems (my Citabria has this > problem): > > I just purchased this airplane and on the return flight home I noticed that as > I add electrical load (nav lights, landing lights), the ammeter increases on > the positive side up to a 30 amp reading when everything is on. Most > airplanes I see seem to have a pretty steady ammeter reading as loads are > added. > > Do you think the voltage regulator is not doing it's thing? > > Doug, > > President, MN Wing Van's AirForce I should probably leave this for the AeroElectric Connection, but be aware that there are two basic types of aircraft ammeter setups out there. One shows only load (yours apparently -which has a zero at the left end and some # at the right) and the other type shows charge or discharge (in amps) of the battery. The latter have the zero in the middle of the range. In my humble opinion I think the charge/discharge type offers the pilot more useful info. (bait) Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vaccaromik(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: Van's online help
Roy, Van's on-line address is 76455.1602(at)compuserve.com. Mike Vaccaro ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Heating wing skins
My thoughts: 1) Even if the skin is heated evenly while drilled and riveted there will be stresses when it cools and shrinks. The structure is not strong enough to keep the skin from contracting as it cools - something has to give. Is it rivets being pulled loose? Is it rivet holes being stretched? Is it the spar being forced to bend? Is it the wing being forced to twist? 2) Sagging skins is only an issue when the aircraft is parked. When the wing has airflow over it the skin will be at ambient temperature, same as the structure. Thin aluminum skins sagging from sitting in the sun will probably cool to ambient temp and shrink back to "normal" before the wheels leave the ground. 3) If you're going to heat, it should also be done when the holes are drilled. If you heat a 48" skin from 70 to 150 deg. F it expands 0.05", half a rivet diameter. If you drill cold and rivet hot, that's the hole misalignment you will have. 4) No need to heat the bottom skins because they are always in the shade (unless you park it upside down, in which case saggy skins isn't your main concern). 5) Heating the whole room heats the structure and skin to the same temperature and accomplishes nothing. You need a temperature differential. I evaluated the pros & cons and did not heat the skins on my RV-4. However, IF you do want to heat the skins it clearly is best to apply the heat as evenly as possible, so that the expansion and contraction are "straight". One idea is to use a flexible silicone pad heater, like the HOTPADD heaters we make for preheating engines. I made one that's 24" by 6", big enough to cover almost the entire skin between any pair of ribs. You don't need to heat the entire skin - just the portion between the last rib riveted and the one you're doing next. The heat pad is duct taped to the skin, plugged in (120V AC) and a thermostat keeps the skin at a uniform 150 degrees F. I played with it and it seemed to work well, but I didn't use it during riveting for the reasons stated above. If anyone wants a heat pad like it, let me know. --Bob Reiff, RV4 #2646 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Gone for a While
I will be out in the Portland area for a week taking Mike Seager's course on flying the RV and learning to do aerobatics the RV way, which is far different from the aerobatics that I did in the Air Force with a jet strapped to me. If any of you need a response to anything that was in my newsletter, etc., I'll be back on line on the 9th of November. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com Finished painting today, final assembly soon! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart)
Subject: Sliding canopy question
I'm trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel here. Everyone who has finished the sliding canopy knows that the side bows of the canopy frame are not welded according to plans. The side bow is *supposed* to be welded to the front bow so that the centerline of the side bow is offset 3/16 inch outboard from the centerline of the front bow. It is not. SInce the side skirts are supposed to attach to the plexi and the side bows, something must be done. I can see a couple of options: 1. fabricate a 3/16 inch shim to put between the side bow and the skirt. 2. Instead of riveting the skirt to the side bow itself, weld some tabs onto the side bow, with the tabs sticking down. Rivet the skirt to the tabs. It appears to me that EVERY slider-builder has had to solve this problem. The question I am asking is this: How have you done it? Best Regards, Dave Barnhart Rv-6 sn 23744 trimming the canopy. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
>My back is now aginst the wall. >I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. >I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, >or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. >I would like to know what type of gauges others builders >using, if they are happy with them or not and why. >CRAIG HIERS RV-4 N143CH Craig, I have the S-W senders that Van's sells hooked up to Mitchell fuel gauges and they have worked fine for 350 hours. My primary "fuel gauge" is a stop watch. My auxilary fuel gauge is a calibrated dip stick. When all used together, the electric gauge, stop watch and dip stick pretty well sum up the gas situation:) Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: ElectroAir EI System
<< After speaking to Mr. Rose yesterday I felt comfortable with his system. << He has sold over 700 units in the past six years. Van has been flying <>According to Klaus Savier, Van removed Jeff Rose's electronic ignition >>system, and installed the Lightning Speed ignition system. And Van >>now cares the Lightning Speed (Lightspeed) ignition system in his >>Options Catalog. >>In talking to Klaus, it occurred to me that the saying about "a cheap >>tool can be the most expensive tool you buy" may also apply to a >>cheap electronic ignition. Gentlemen, GENTLEMEN! This sounds more like campaign rhetoric than an exchange of useful information . . . . Did anyone talk to Van to see WHY he removed one to try another? When names are DROPPED in support of or against any particular view, I'd really like to hear from the NAME or from someone who had a first hand discussion of the issues with the NAME . . . the words I've quoted above contribute nothing to anyone's decision making processes but makes good "press." I've known both Klaus and Jeff for years, I like them both and I admire the effort and dedication over the years needed to bring their products into the markeplace. But understand this ladies and gentlemen, they are in COMPETITION for a niche marketplace. If anyone wants to help our brethren make INFORMED decisions, let's talk about people who have used the equipment and have offered their experiences for constructive, critical discussions. This isn't a religion based upon leaps of faith; I sincerely hope we're educating ourselves by sorting useful facts from the not so useful. It's pretty easy to invoke the spirit of Van, Rutan, . . . or Nuckolls into a discussion but IF you do, make sure you UNDERSTAND what what was offered and can explain it in a way that's useful for anyone who is listening. Anything less is grossly unfair to both the listener and the individual who's "pixie dust" is being sprinkled over the conversation. I spend more than a few hours each day on a number of list-servers . . . I'm sure you've observed that my writings are seldom brief. I'm not bucking for a disability retirement with carpal tunnel syndrome; I AM going on record with the best way I know how to take ideas and roll 'em over for a look at all sides. We have an obligation to be the MOST skeptical of words spoken by entrepreneurs; the things we really need to know are to be found with their customers and with individuals who can weigh claims against the irrefutable laws of physics. IMHO there's no better place to do it than right here in open forum. So keep your ears and eyes open and share whatever information you find. But in all fairness to both entrepreneur, aviation sainthood candidates -and- those of us working hard to learn - - take some time to filter rhetoric and unsupported innuendo out before it's posted. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: ANR Headset Kit - It Works!
---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: INTERNET:rv-list(at)matronics.com DATE: 10/31/96 11:56 PM > Just before Oshkosh this year, I saw an advertisement from a company called > Headsets, Inc. that claimed I could "Add ANR (Active Noise Reduction) to > your Headset for a Fraction of the Cost of a New Headset!" (The same ad is > in the October "Sport Aviation" on page 30.) They sell the electronic > circuitry that you install in your own headset. > > I had borrowed a Telex ANR headset from a friend a couple of years ago, and > it really did cut down on the fatiguing low-frequency noise. It was a neat > gadget, but was also about $450, and way too expensive for me. > > I had never heard anything (good or bad) about Headsets, Inc., but I called > the 800 number and got a free information package. It had some good color > photos of the kit, positive endorsements from "The Aviation Consumer", > "Kitplanes", and "Western Flyer" magazines, and some technical specs > including a frequency vs. attenuation chart. Most importantly, it had the > price: $159 plus $7 shipping and handling! > > This sounded like a really good deal, which to my conservative mentality > usually means LOOK OUT, YOU ARE ABOUT TO GET RIPPED OFF!!! However, I was > feeling particularly bold one day, so I wrote them a check and crossed my > fingers. A couple of weeks later, a box arrived at the house. Inside was a > very good looking and complete kit with detailed instructions. It even had a > roll of solder. So far, so good. After reading the instructions a few > times, I took my trusty Flightcom 5DX headset to the workbench and started > disemboweling it, wondering if I was really doing the right thing. > > The kit is very straightforward, but you need to be comfortable cutting, > stripping, and soldering the very tiny wires that are in a headset. You > will need a soldering iron with a fine point, or do like I did, and safety > wire a piece of 1/8" steel rod to your soldering gun tip. (For $50, > Headsets, Inc. will install the kit for you.) It took me about 3 hours to > put everything together, but I was not in a hurry. > > The kit comes with a small battery box (for a 9v battery) with an on/off > toggle switch. When I plugged the power cord in and turned it on, it > actually worked! I had the radio on in the shop, and when I flipped the > switch, the bass notes in the music virtually disappeared. The system is > designed to counteract noise below 500 Hz. with a peak active attenuation of > 15 dB at 200 Hz. > > OK, it works on the ground, but what about in the air, where it really > counts? Yep, it works in real use. The Sonerai I fly has 4 short exhaust > stacks that exit the bottom of the cowl cheeks. It is a lot noisier than an > RV, and I usually wear earplugs under my headset, then turn the volume on > the radio all the way up so I can hear it. Not any more! I can leave the > earplugs out, and set the radio volume at a reasonable level. > > How does it compare to other (more expensive) ANR headsets? To give it the > ultimate comparison, I borrowed a BOSE ANR headset ($1,000) from a very > trusting friend and took both sets to our EAA chapter meeting, along with a > tape recording of my lawn mower. Played at high volume, with your eyes > closed, it's easy to imagine you are in my plane! We all took turns > listening to the $1,000 BOSE headset, then to the $166 homebrew headset. > The overall consensus was: The BOSE set is slightly quieter when turned off > (passive attenuation only) and slightly more comfortable due to the extra > squishy ear seals, but when powered up, both units are about the same, > noisewise! > > OK, is there anything negative about the kit? Maybe. My Flightcom headset > used to be stereo before I transmogrified it. Due to the way Flightcom > grounds the seperate stereo channels, I had to convert it into a mono unit. > This doesn't bother me, because I don't have a stereo in the plane. It may > be a drawback for the more pampered pilots. Also, they claim that you must > use gel-filled earseals. Dry or foam filled seals are not as airtight, and > won't give good results. I bought some gel-filled seals from Acousticom > (1-800-664-0534) for $12 a set. > > Sorry, this has gotten way too long, but if anyone has any questions, I'll > be happy to ramble some more. > > Danny Kight > kightdm(at)carol.net Danny, Nice piece! And not too long. Direct, to the point and enough words to let people understand the significance of what you have to share. I'm keeping this one on file and forwarding copies to some of the other list-servers I participate on. Thanks for helping us out! Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 1996
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
<< My back is now aginst the wall. I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. I would like to know what type of gauges others builders using, if they are happy with them or not and why. Hi Craig. I wrestled with the same dilema and came up with the following. I went ahead and bought the cheapie gauges/senders from Van's. They are reasonably accurate - I just started taxi testing 427EM, and after adjusting the senders a couple of times I show about 1/4 for each 5 gallons put into each tank. I've always treated ANY fuel gauges in an airplane as suspect so I couldn't see spending a fortune on "good" ones. I'm planning on supplementing the cheap gauges with a Matronics Fuel Scan for "complete" fuel status. Not only is some sort of fuel quantity gauge required, it will show a major leak where a fuel "computer" would not. Good luck, Ed Bundy - Boise, ID ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AV8RRR(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
I'm at the same point myself, and have decided on VDO guages (about $25 ea), the senders from Van (about $18 ea), and low level warning light switches from Acft Spruce ( about $38 ea). Part #'s, sources, and rough draft on request. Larry Scheer Albany, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: Ammeter load
From: ab6a(at)juno.com (ALLAN E POMEROY)
Doug, Is it possible that this is a "load indicator"? Some Piper Warriors had a gauge that indicated the load, in amps, that you were drawing from the electrical system as you turned on each electrical accessory. The more you turned on, the higher the needle registered. Weiler) writes: >Fellow Listers (especially Bob Nuckolls) > >Here's generic question on electrical systems (my Citabria has this >problem): > >I just purchased this airplane and on the return flight home I noticed >that as >I add electrical load (nav lights, landing lights), the ammeter >increases on >the positive side up to a 30 amp reading when everything is on. Most >airplanes I see seem to have a pretty steady ammeter reading as loads >are >added. > >Do you think the voltage regulator is not doing it's thing? > >Doug, > >President, MN Wing Van's AirForce > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen)
Subject: Sensors
I'm looking at making my own "glass cockpit". Do any of you know of a source for in-expensive sensors: Pressure/vacum - (manifold, altitude, airspeed, variometer, etc.) liquid flow - (fuel flow) temperature - (OAT, cylinder, exhaust) I'm only looking for the actual sensors, not the electronics, gauges, etc. which I intend to build myself. Finn finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 1996
From: twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com>
Subject: Re: Flying Safe (Chatter?)
Snip Thanks for your comments Bob. Terray ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
>My back is now aginst the wall. >I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. >I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, >or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. >I would like to know what type of gauges others builders >using, if they are happy with them or not and why. > > >CRAIG HIERS >RV-4 N143CH > I used the standard van's gauges and am happy with the accuracy. A lot of it has to do with installation. I rigged up the system to a battery before I closed the tanks and bent the arm untill half meant half, empty meant out of fuel. As with all fuel systems the accuracy ultimatly depends on knowing how much fuel your aircraft burns at different settings and then timing your flights, the guages should mainly be used to confirm your calculations. Tom Martin RV-4 200hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
I am also at the fuel gauge stage. I ordered senders from Van last week not bothering to ask if these senders include gauges, if not will these senders work with any gauges that I purchase at a later date? Also isn't it neccessary to have a gauge to test the swing of the sending float for empty/full accurracy? Whichever senders/gauges you buy, don't make the same mistake I did and try and calibrate the senders without the gauge. I am now faced with one tank that reads 3/4 when its full and takes an hour to decrease! Theres a good post somewhere in the archives about calibrating the senders, I suggest a search would be in order. Actually, the real reason my cal is out is because I moved the sender from the end of the tank to the second bay to allow for the flop tube. I then sealed the tank (including the access plate on the rear baffle). Thinking I did a really neat job I started to tidy up only to find the float from the sender still sitting on the shelf!!! Oh silly me! Ken RV6A flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: Kevin Shelton <k.j.shelton(at)larc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Sensors
>I'm looking at making my own "glass cockpit". > >Do any of you know of a source for in-expensive sensors: >Pressure/vacum - (manifold, altitude, airspeed, variometer, etc.) >liquid flow - (fuel flow) >temperature - (OAT, cylinder, exhaust) > >I'm only looking for the actual sensors, not the electronics, gauges, >etc. which I intend to build myself. > >Finn > >finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com > > Motorola makes a nice signal conditioned absolute pressure sensor (altitude) 0-15 psi that gives 0-5vdc output. It has a +/- 0.2% linearity error, and is temperature compensated from 0 to 85 degrees c. Nice to plug straight into an ADC card. Motorola Part Number MPX5100AP. I got one as a free sample a while back, but I think they are about ~$40. They also have a nice diferential signal conditioned sensor that can be used as for an airspeed sensor. Don't have the part number handy. Let me know how it goes. A few of us on the list (Fred Stucklan) have similar interests, using PC104 hardware and LCD screens. Good Luck Kevin Kevin Shelton KA4UWE Lockheed Martin Engineering & Science Co. NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA (757) 864-4470 k.j.shelton(at)larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------------------------------------ To invent an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. To fly is everything. - Otto Lilienthal 1848-1896 ------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump for IO-Lycomings
I have a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 and am looking for an electric fuel pump. What brand pumps have you guys with the injected engines been using. Also, what prices have you been paying and sources for these pumps. If you would prefer to reply directly, my e-mail is lsmith(at)coastalnet.com. I'm using a Weldon high pressure pump on my fuel injected 360. Some things to watch for are: 1. It is not intended to run dry and I believe it is not self priming. I have had to put in a small lp pump to feed the hp pump as it is mounted on the firewall and won't suck from the tank. 2. There are two kinds of heads, one has an internal bypass, the other doesn't. I'm not sure how you tell the difference from the outside.I had major problems with my fuel system initially because I was told the pump I had did have the bypass and I plumbed my system in parallel. 3. If you put the pump before the gascolator (in Canada we are required to include one) then a high pressure gascolator is required. I paid about 250 Canadian for a rebuilt unit. Ken RV6A flying j.ken_hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: Horace W Weeks <74664.2105(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
Hook an ohmmeter to it and check full and empty readings. They should be about 31 ohms at one end and 241 ohms at the other. Now tie a string on the arm with the string ends about 12" long. with the float assembled properly, feed the ends of the string through a top side nutplate and a bottom side nutplate. Tape the ends of the strings so they don't fall back into the tank. You can now insert the fuel sender into the tank and fasten with screws in the open three nutplates. The two ends of the string can now be used to lift and then lower the float while it is in it's normal position in the tank. Check the resistance readings again with an ohmmeter. If you get full travel, you will get the same readings that were measured outside of the tank. If not the same, you now know which end is bottomimg out and you can rebend the float wire accordingly. I used this on my tanks and found that it worked great. Ace Weeks RV 6 Starting fuselage 74664,2105 @Compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Important Survey = Van's Aircraft On-line
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Oh no, ANOTHER survey, and no other return address EXCEPT the list..... There's going to be a lot of deletions in the next few days.... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:36:44 +0930 mail.terra.net.au!jagreen(at)matronics.com (James Green) writes: >> >>1. Have you visited the Van's Aircraft web site (located at >>http://home.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/)? >[Yes] > >>2. Are you: >thinking about building an RV]? > > >>3. If you are building an RV, what stage are you at? >N/A > > >>4. Which model? >>[RV-4] >>[RV-8] >> >>5. How did you hear about the Van's Aircraft Web Site? >>[link from another site] >> >>6. Have you used Van's CompuServe e-mail address >>[other (please specify)]? To ask about the RVator and info packs for >O/seas >> >>7. Do you have a Van's Aircraft Accessories (Optional Parts) catalog? >>[Yes] > >>8. If the entire up-to-date Accessories Catalog was on-line, would >you >>use it? >>[Yes] >> >>9. If 24 hour toll-free on-line ordering was available, would you use > >>it? >>[Yes I might] >> >>10. When was the last time you ordered something from Van's Aircraft? >>[more than two years ago] >> >>11. If complete on-line technical support was available, would you >use >>it? >>[Yes] >> >>12. Do you subscribe to the RVator newsletter? >>[No], but I have in the past. approx. 4years ago >> >>13. How often do you access the Internet? >>[once a day] > >>14. What state (or country) are you located in? >AUSTRALIA, South Australia >> >>15. What is your name (optional)? >James Green > >>16. What is your e-mail address (optional)? >jagreen(at)terra.net.au >> >>Please list any specific comments or suggestions on what you would >like >>to see Van's Aircraft do on-line, or have on their website (this is >>important, everything is considered). >RVator Newsletter emailed to PAID subscribers, I consider this an >important >part of the RV instead of snail mail. >James Green >Williamstown >South Australia > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Remember, when installing the floats (plastic ?) for these cheap gages, be sure to set them up such that they don't hit the top or bottom skins of the the tank at the full or empty positions. If they do rub, they will eventually wear a hole in the float....... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: >>My back is now aginst the wall. >>I now have to buy fuel gauges and seal the tanks. >>I cannot see buying 300$ worth of gauges and sending units, >>or 50$ for a set that at best will be inaccurate. >>I would like to know what type of gauges others builders >>using, if they are happy with them or not and why. >> >> >>CRAIG HIERS >>RV-4 N143CH >> >I used the standard van's gauges and am happy with the accuracy. A lot >of it >has to do with installation. I rigged up the system to a battery >before I >closed the tanks and bent the arm untill half meant half, empty meant >out of >fuel. As with all fuel systems the accuracy ultimatly depends on >knowing how >much fuel your aircraft burns at different settings and then timing >your >flights, the guages should mainly be used to confirm your >calculations. > >Tom Martin >RV-4 200hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Listers: My solution (although expensive) was to put in the cheap gages to indicate rough quantities in each tank, and a Shadin Fuel flow meter to accurately tell me how much fuel I have. Coupled to the GPS, I ALWAYS know if I can get to my destination. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com >I am also at the fuel gauge stage. I ordered senders from Van last >week not >bothering to ask if these senders include gauges, if not will these >senders >work with any gauges that I purchase at a later date? Also isn't it >neccessary to have a gauge to test the swing of the sending float for >empty/full accurracy? > >Jerry Engel >RV-6A "ready to order fuselage" > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sensors
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Hope this helps...... Motorola Sensors: Both compensated and uncompensated pressure sensors are available with ranges between 0-15PSI. Contact: Motorola Power and Signal Technologies Group 5005 E. McDowell Rd. Phoenix, AZ 85008 (602)-244-4556 Position & pressure sensors: Data Intruments 100 Discovery Way, Acton, Ma. 01720 (800)-333-DATA Magnetometers, one, two & three axis hibrid : Honeywell Solid State Electronics Center 12001 State Highway 55 Plymouth, MN 55441 (800)-323-8295 Pitch & Roll Sensors: Precision navigation, Inc 1235 Pear Ave, Suite 111 Mountain view, CA 94043 (415)962-8777 Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Finn Lassen) writes: >I'm looking at making my own "glass cockpit". > >Do any of you know of a source for in-expensive sensors: >Pressure/vacum - (manifold, altitude, airspeed, variometer, etc.) >liquid flow - (fuel flow) >temperature - (OAT, cylinder, exhaust) > >I'm only looking for the actual sensors, not the electronics, gauges, >etc. which I intend to build myself. > >Finn > >finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BestBillO(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: autopilot
Leo Davies, I saw the STEC 50 installed in a flying -6 a few months ago. The company had used this individual's plane to develop a kit for the RV-series aircraft. The owner was delighted with the system. I think if you'll call STEC at 1-800-872-7832, if you can call an 800 number from your locale, they'll be able to discuss the kit even further. I had a 50 in my old Bonanza and was quite please with it too. If the 800 number is not good for you, STEC is located in Mineral Wells, Texas. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: OMABP (chatter)
<< There's something inherently wrong with an aircraft with wings that go round and round and make wappa-wappa noises..... >> Hay, watch the Italian jokes, OK Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DMusgrave(at)swri.edu
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Sensors
ix.netcom.com!finnlass(at)matronics.com (Finn Lassen) Wrote: | | I'm looking at making my own "glass cockpit". | | Do any of you know of a source for in-expensive sensors: | Pressure/vacum - (manifold, altitude, airspeed, variometer, etc.) | liquid flow - (fuel flow) | temperature - (OAT, cylinder, exhaust) | | I'm only looking for the actual sensors, not the electronics, gauges, | etc. which I intend to build myself. | | Finn | | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com You might talk to Greg at Grand Rapids Technology (GRT757(at)aol.com). Greg sells a really neat engine monitoring system, and will probably sell the probes and sensors individually. I checked out the engine instrumentation options at Oshkosh, and ordered one of Greg's units. Saw several in RVs too! My whole system with the fuel flow option ($295, mostly for the cost of the flow transducer) was about $900. Greg has done all the "legwork" and has a very impressive product for the money. FWIW. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: HVLP Gun
>The Graco system includes a turbine and an air hose that looks like a fat >garden hose. I am having very good luck with the system. I have the base >color on and one of the trim colors on. One more trim color and it will be >finished. It is Red, White, and Blue!!! the cheapest quote that I got for >having the plane painted was $3500. I will have mine painted for less than >$1000., including the Graco!!!. > >Jim >jamescone(at)aol.com > Jim: Well, now I am encouraged to use the system I have. Has anyone had experience with metalflake and the HVLP systems?? Micheal RV-4 232SQ mikel(at)dimensional.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: Message replies
>Sorry if I sound cranky, but I'm getting more mail, and less of the info that >matters. > >Ed Bundy >ebundy2620(at)aol.com > BINGO!!!! Thanks for saying what I was thinking, Ed. Michael mikel(at)dimensional.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: F-672 Bad Fit
From: rvbildr(at)juno.com (Malcolm L Harper)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
I've checked the archives, but no help. When attempting to fit my F-672(forward bottom fuselage skin), the edge of the skin came just to the center of the pre-drilled holes in the lower longeron angle/weldment just aft of the firewall. Has anyone else had the problem? If so, what did you do for a fix? Tom at Van's says I can put rivets in the pre-drilled holes and drill some new ones that the F-672 will reach. Thanks. Mal rvbildr(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: gil(at)bala.HAC.COM (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
>Hook an ohmmeter to it and check full and empty readings. They should be about >31 ohms at one end and 241 ohms at the other. Now tie a string on the arm with >the string ends about 12" long. with the float assembled properly, feed the >ends of the string through a top side nutplate and a bottom side nutplate. >Tape >the ends of the strings so they don't fall back into the tank. You can now >insert the fuel sender into the tank and fasten with screws in the open three >nutplates. The two ends of the string can now be used to lift and then lower >the float while it is in it's normal position in the tank. Check the >resistance >readings again with an ohmmeter. If you get full travel, you will get the same >readings that were measured outside of the tank. If not the same, you now know >which end is bottomimg out and you can rebend the float wire accordingly. I >used this on my tanks and found that it worked great. > >Ace Weeks >RV 6 Starting fuselage >74664,2105 @Compuserve.com See below for the EXACT spec. in ohms. Take caution to hold the unit the right way up during calibration ... EMPTY is the HIGH ohms reading for Stewart Warner guages. The arm is easier to adjust if you bend the wire and set the end points BEFORE the rear baffle is mounted on the tank (at least for the "non-flop" installation) ... Gil (check the archives!) Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com ***** from the May 1994 archives ***** Rv fuel gaugers, Just a followup to my fuel senders message of a few days ago. I found the various sender resistances:- Empty Full GM 0 ohms 90 ohms Ford/Chrysler 73 ohms 8 to 12 ohms AMC/SW (Vans) 240 ohms 33 ohms The important item to note is that the EMPTY reading of a Stewart Warner (Vans) sender is 240 ohms ... don't install the sender upside down. The geometry of Vans stock sender (for full and empty levels) becomes obvious when you realize it is designed to be mounted flat on the TOP surface of a fuel tank, hence the funny bends in the arm. The stops for the arm are easy to adust to get these readings within 1 or 2 ohms. As a separate note, sometime back, one of the Bakersfield Bunch (can't remember who) told me that when you set up the swinging of the fuel sender arm in the tank, the empty and full positions of the float should be slightly (a quarter inch) away from the surfaces of the tank. If the floats are any closer to the tank surfaces, then some "dinging" can occur with g forces during aerobatics, looking unsightly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
Subject: End Cap Adhesion
Hi RV Gang, I think this has been covered before but I can't get to the archives with my dog computer. I am forced to glass in the end caps on my tail feathers since I made my cuts before I knew the golden rule of never cut until you have to. Since I forgot to pilfer some pro-seal from Paul Rosales yesterday at the air races, I have no other sources for the stuff. So, does anyone have any experience with off the shelf (not sold by A/C Spruce) epoxies. Reformed glass builders, you must know of at least a dozen that will work. Any tricks of the trade will be highly regarded. Bob Skinner are you out there? I was going to wait until next Sat. night to post this in order to liven things up for you, but I'm just about out of metal stuff to play with. Feel free to E-mail me privately since this is only a few clicks above primer on the exitement meter. Eric Henson Dana Point, CA ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Sensors
>I'm looking at making my own "glass cockpit". >Do any of you know of a source for in-expensive sensors: >Pressure/vacum - (manifold, altitude, airspeed, variometer, etc.) >liquid flow - (fuel flow) >temperature - (OAT, cylinder, exhaust) >I'm only looking for the actual sensors, not the electronics, gauges, >etc. which I intend to build myself. Finn, There are HUNDREDS of sources for sensors of the types you mentioned. "In-expensive" is a non-quantified criteria. For example, you can purchase sensitive, low range pressure transducers for air-speed and altitude that are quite reasonable in price . . . less than $20. However, they're specifications for linearity and out-of the box calibration versus temperature are NOT good enough to be useful. None the less, I'm currently working with a supplier who is building me a very precise air data system (+/-10 feet to 60,000 feet, +/- 1 knot to 400 kts) using those same, inexpensive sensors. The trick is that while sensor to sensor variations and variations with respect to temp are too high . . . they REPEAT very closely for long periods of time. The answer was to individually calibrate and characterize each senosr and build lookup tables to provide corrected readouts for each sensor as it goes into an assembly. More expensive sensor are more accurate but you trade technique and time for dollars. If all I had to do was hammer silicon together and write software for it, life would be so much simpler. You're about to discover one of more difficult tasks for bringing a new idea to fruition. Go to your local library and find documents like the Thomas Register, Electronic Engineering Master catalog, Electronic and Industry telephone directory. Also, check on the web for sensor suppliers and distributors. Start posting your ideas on the appropriate newsgroups . . . there's bound to be people who have useful tidbits of information and experience to share. Order literature from the vendors you find and especially, find out who distributes their products handy to you. Don't overlook automotive sensors especially if you're doing a one-of-a-kind system . . . while many of these sensors are not terribly accurate, they are repeatable which allows you to characterize them individually. More importantly, the sensors you find at Big-A Autoparts are already suited for measuring oil, gasoline, etc. Not all pressure transducers in the catalogs are suited for the liquids you'll put into them. I wish there were a SIMPLE response to your question . . . be glad to discuss your system as it evolves. Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammeter load
> Fellow Listers (especially Bob Nuckolls) > I'm here . . . > Here's generic question on electrical systems (my Citabria has this > problem): > > I just purchased this airplane and on the return flight home I noticed that as > I add electrical load (nav lights, landing lights), the ammeter increases on > the positive side up to a 30 amp reading when everything is on. Most > airplanes I see seem to have a pretty steady ammeter reading as loads are >added. > > Do you think the voltage regulator is not doing it's thing? > > Doug >>I should probably leave this for the AeroElectric Connection, but be aware >>that there are two basic types of aircraft ammeter setups out there. >>One shows only load (yours apparently -which has a zero at the left >>end and some # at the right) and the other type shows charge or >>discharge (in amps) of the battery. The latter have the zero in >>the middle of the range. In my humble opinion I think the charge/discharge >>type offers the pilot more useful info. (bait) >>Scott N4ZW Scott is quite right . . . I agree that your ammeter is probably wired to be an alternator load meter as opposed to being a -/0/+ battery ammeter. Scott is also correct that the battery ammeter . . as the SOLE source of electrical system instrumentation . . offers a lot of information to someone who knows how to interpret it. My most recent design philosophy includes an essential bus for certain electrical items wherein a VOLTMETER is recommended as useful during battery only operations. In another move to reduce the number and magnitude of magnetically coupled noises in the cockpit, we've moved alternator b-lead feeds from the panel bus bar to the starter contactor on the firewall. This architecture makes it very difficult to utilize a battery ammeter. Given that a voltmeter is already installed, using the ammeter as an alternator performance monitor is entirely satisfactory. Consider adding a voltmeter to your airplane . . preferably an expanded scale device (8-16 volts) if analog or put in a digital device (less than $40 from LOTS of sources). After a half hour or so of cruising flight, you'r bus votlage should settle out between 13.8 and 14.2 volts. Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
> Remember, when installing the floats (plastic ?) for these cheap gages, > be sure to set them up such that they don't hit the top or bottom skins > of the the tank at the full or empty positions. If they do rub, they will > eventually wear a hole in the float....... The SW senders that Vans ships have metal floats. Previously they were some sort of stiff foam. I think it would be a good idea to smear a little area of proseal on the top and bottom skin where the float would contact it if it bottomed out. Unfortunately I thought of this AFTER I closed up my tanks.... I suppose I still could do it through the access hole. My opinion on Vans senders and gauges: I think the senders that Vans is currently shipping look fine. I'm sure there are better sender/ gauge setups but I'll still stick the tank before flight anyway. Plus I'd rather buy a fuel computer such as the Matronics unit and get the redundancy of gauges AND fuel flow, rather than spend the money on better fuel gauges and senders. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BPattonsoa(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: Sliding canopy question
I cut the tube free and rewelded it per the plans. Makes a neater installation than a shim. I wish I knew about the tab idea before I started, sounds like the best solution to all the other problems you will soon run up against. Bruce Patton At home waiting for the truck with the motor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: spot corrosion fixable?
I hope I'm being over-paranoid here... I have some spot corrosion on the exterior of one of my elevator skins. The spots are just small (a millimeter or two) in size and are not in any specific pattern or area (they don't follow the grain of the metal). I haven't done anything yet. I had similar spots on another piece and decided to replace that piece. I don't want to replace the entire elevator. The parts will sit for another couple of years before I get to the painting stage for the entire aircraft. On the "trash" piece, I used alumiprep and scotchbright until my arm was tired. I never did completely remove the spots. So... the question at hand... is there anything I can do? Will alumiprep kill the corrosion if the spots are still visible? If I etch the outside skin, should I go ahead and prime it for storage? BTW, the steps I follow for the interior pieces: Clean (Acetone) Etch (Alumiprep) Conversion (alodine) Epoxy primer (Akzo/Dexter Aerospace) thanks for the help, Russ Nichols russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov RV-6 N495SW reserved, QB wing and fuse on the way ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Electronic Ignition
>Do you need to replace both mags or can one be left for redundancy? You can replace one or both mags. However, MOST of your performance increases will come from installing the FIRST electronic ignition. Only on engines with BIG pistons (Like the IO-540) get much benefit from a second ignition system. -------------------------------- >If a mag can be retained, which, the standard or the one with the >impulse coupler? Either. The engine should start BEST using electronic ignition so the impulse coupler is no longer imperative. If you're lucky, the mags will fit in EITHER hole so one can be used as a spare for the other . . . ********************************************** * CAUTION * * If the magneto you chose to pair * * with electronic ignition does NOT * * have an impulse coupler, make sure * * this mag is OFF during engine cranking. * * I usually interlock mag and electronic * * ignition so that starter cannot be ener- * * gized while magneto is hot. Failure to * * observe this caveat can reward you with * * "kick=back" during cranking with breath- * * taking effects on your checkbook. * ********************************************** -------------------------------- >Which plug is the better choice for conversion to the electronic >system, top or bottom? My personal choice would be bottom . . . electronic ign tends to be hotter and more likely to fire a less-than-pristine plug. Bottom plugs tend to be dirtier . . . >I do mag checks during run-up and shutdown. Has anybody tried this at >cruise power with one of these systems? Why would you want to do this? Once airborne, the only reason to turn any ignition system OFF is if you suspect that it's firing badly out of time causing great distress to the engine. This condition is extremely rare. Doing unnecessary flipping of switches in flight is an invitation to unexpected, unsavory experiences. >Obviously only three of the four possible combinations are of >interest. The difference between the fixed timing mag and the >electronic device should be evident from this simple test. If you're interested in TESTING from an engineering and/or flight-test perspective, by all means . . . at 5,000 feet immediately above an airport with a LONG runway. >Admittedly this delta is just part of the story if the engine is >relying on both plugs to generate full power. Only at full throttle and high manifold pressures which is a BAD time to be flipping switches . . . with only one plug firing during high power operations, the pressure wave travels faster (speed of sound) than flame front. If you don't light the fires from BOTH sides of a cylinder, the advancing pressure wave can push a marginal detonation condition over the edge. At altitude, manifold pressures at full throttle are low enough that preclude detonation due to advance pressure wave . . your electronic ignition spark will occur so far ahead of the magneto that only the advance plug is contributing to development of power from the engine. >On dual mag systems is there a power reduction with one mag off at >cruise power settings? If there is, then the second mag is not there >for redundancy only. Sure . . the flame front is slower at altitude (lower pressure) so dropping one mag will drop RPM . . . it takes longer for all fuel to get burned. Killing the spark on one side of the cylinder will be noticed. HOWEVER . . advancing the remaining magneto would recover most of the loss . . . which is only ONE reason you should consider putting an electronic system on in the first place. > . . . the numbers you indicate are great and I want to believe all > of this good data about 8,12,20% fuel efficiency but the trouble > is - it is always comes from the dyno of the GUY SELLING THE > SYSTEM! Good point . . . EXCEPT that there's a LOT of independent data and expertise around to tell you that when the spark occurs 20-25 degrees LATE with respect to scientifically derived and demonstrated IDEAL values, efficiency of combustion goes down. There's a good REASON that my 3000 pound car today gets 23 mpg and my 3000 pound car of 1960 would do only 15 mpg. I can get up mountain roads in Colorado with my 4-cylinder Voyager that were untouchable with my 6-cylinder '59 Chevy. It wouldn't happen without electronics. Magnetos (and the manner in which they are utilized on airplane engines) have only ONE virtue . . they are a KNOWN quantity. I'll suggest that aside from issues of providing reliable power sources (see above) adaptations of modern automotive technologies to aircraft is EQUALLY known . . . we just need to get past the idea that "automotive" is simply not well suited to do things "aircraft." ------------------------------------ >Bob, as always I appreciate your response. First off, I have >always been wanting to know how do you make those nicely indented >paragraphs when you reply in e-mail? It makes it so easy to read >but when I try it with spaces, different e-mail systems cause >a wrap-around and mess everything up. Since I can't make things >orderly like you I will tag your and my name to add clarity >to this response. I use a real word processor off-line to format messages and import them into Win-Cim at mailing. Also, Win-Cim has a "reformat/send-as-shown" option. Try putting a leading space at the beginning of each sentence. I believe many mail handlers look for the leading blank and avoid wrapping those sentences . . . . -------------------------------------- >However, all that being said I'm still NOT a proponent of electronic >ignitions systems for aircraft. Some of the claims are outlandish >and there is no definitive data. There's LOTS of data . . . available from any lab that can run engines in test cells for whatever purpose. >Please lead me in the right direction. Indicate a couple of the >reports you are referring to. Don't suggest a magazine article in the same >magazine that Klaus is advertising in the back. I don't want verbiage from >some self-serving magazine article with a journalism major touting the >claims of his advertiser. I have yet to see a good definitive engineering >report of test data done by a qualified, neutral, engineer with a focus on >quantifying the merits of the system. I am NOT baiting you - I would >seriously like to get my hands on a good "aviation related" test report. That's the rub . . . since the alleged "experts" in aviation (Cessna, Beech, Piper, Mooney and FAA) are not truly interested in advancing state of the art, there will be no such reports from the aforementioned sources. I suggested exactly this kind of investigation be done for the American General Aviation Technology Experiment (AGATE) and was summarily informed that there was "no interest on the part of the airframe community in any such study." However, I'll ask you what is so different about an engine in an airplane versus an engine in an automobile that makes it so difficult to make the leap between them? What is it about "electronics" that turns you off? Most folk are entirely willing to stuff flight bag and panel with the most amazing silicon based gizmos but engines seem to be some sort of sacred cow. I don't have any "aviation" reports at hand but the SAE papers are full of studies done on automotive engines and automotive engines are tested in the mountains at altitude. Performance trade-offs are a no-brainer; reliability takes a little planning and care (failure mode effects analysis) and failure tolerant design. ---------------------------- >Totally agree. Computer controlled advance (or retard) is what gives >these systems the potential for better fuel efficiency. Re-read my post I >never said otherwise. Now show me the test cell report that gets a 15%-20% >fuel efficiency as some advertisements claim. Suppose it's only 8% . . . would you do it then? Suppose your engine always started in the coldest weather one with one or two blades of cranking? Suppose you could run $2 automotive plugs instead of $20 aircraft plugs? Suppose spare parts were 1/3rd the cost and needed replacement 1/3rd as often? Suppose the replacement system has an MTBF that 2-5 times longer than a magneto? Suppose the plugs could be run 2-5 times longer? Suppose shielded plug wires with special fittings at $20 a pop were replaced with reel-it-off, and build-it-yourself leads at $5 a pop? . . . Have I missed anything? -------------------------- Anyone who has seen Klaus demonstrate the sounds from his Vari-Eze exhausts at idle can appreciate the fact that as ignition timing advanced, the engine ran faster and quieter . . . . >Totally irrelevant. My lawn mower (in fact any piston engine) will >demonstrate the SAME behavior at idle by varying the timing. I disagree . . . the point I was making that the engine had no mufflers on straight pipes. At low manifold pressures, the "normally" timed mags are so far advanced that fires are burning when exhaust valves open . . . hence lots of noise went away when the advance was added . . . and yes, in cars it used to be called VACUUM advance, partially closed throttle produced lower manifold pressures which is exactly the time that advance is needed . . . magnetos cannot offer any form of advance. ------------------------------ >I have never disputed that. Are you suggesting its worth $700 - $3,600 t >to get an advance mechanism? Who said anything about $3600!!!!!!! The Slick system is a pile of . . . well . . . let's stay civil in this discussion. Seven hundred dollars? Yes. How much does a new magneto and harness cost? What we SHOULD be comparing is delta-dollars. The problem is that most engines come with mags . . . by them without and suddenly the "cost" of modern ignition becomes trivial. See last paragraphs. ------------------------------- >I would agree that if the "advance" can save $2,000 in fuel over >its life then it may be worth it. So show me a credible report. This might be something that the CAFE folk should do. I really hoped that I'd be able to do it on an A-36 Bonanza but that doesn't seem to be coming forward. But I'd agree that the value of a $2,000 dollar system would be most questionable. I'll suggest that a $700 system replacing a $500 system is an entirely different matter. . . *************************************************************** * HOT FLASH!!!! Just heard a rumor that CAFE is preparing * * to do some testing on electronic ignition systems on air- * * planes. I'll try to "plug in" to the data stream and * * pass along any information as it becomes available * *************************************************************** -------------------------------- I'm aware of no production engine using CDI (high-voltage charge of a capacitor) in their electronic ignition architectures. In fact, CDI sparks, while HOT are also SHORT... >Geeze, can't I be a little descriptive! Ok, so it wasn't a >flamethrower. Actually, Kawasaki produced a CDI system on their >500cc three cylinder, two-cycle motorcycle, from 69-75. My guess, >total world-wide production exceeded 50,000 units. They took a >risk "experimenting" and were so successfully that they laid the >ground work for all of the copy-cat electronic systems that came >later. They used individual coils for each cylinder and, of course, >it being a two cycle, they fired each stroke. The four cycle guys >still use the same methodology and of course fire every >stroke (even on the EXHAUST stoke) it keeps things simpler. But of course! There's lots of CDI ignitions on smaller engines including the Rotax series engines through the 914. A magnet flys past a coil and charges a real capacitor to some relatively high voltage 100-500 volts which is shunted to step-up transformer (coil) by a silicon controlled rectifier. The automotive folk looked at this architecture and abandoned it in favor of the LONGER spark from the inductive system. Klaus's first offering was a multiple-spark-discharge (MSD) which was undoubtedly helpful in making his airplane the fastest Vari-Eze in the world. However, it was heavy, noisy, expensive un-necessarily HOT (remember, we're competing with a magneto), and not competitive with Jeff's first offering which was a lower cost inductive system. Given what has gone before us, were I to launch into an electronic ignition system, it would be waste spark (fire two plugs at a time) with inductively stored energy. It's the highest cost/performance ratio combination out there today. --------------------------------- > . . .claim is it is designed that way to be CLEAN by firing the > residual exhaust gasses! More marketing swill! Agreed --------------------------------- >However, my point was that an aviation cylinder is very different >from a liquid cooled auto. We already have TWO, magneto fired >plugs - they have ONE (rotaries and some others excepted). >We are air cooled - they are liquid cooled. We are gigantic in >bore diameter - they are quite small. Agreed . . . and I've touched on that . . . IO-540's do seem to benefit from dual electronic ignition. ---------------------------------- >We run reasonable mix ratios - they are computer controlled at >15:1 or GREATER! That's the NEXT step to consider . . . electronic controlled fuel injection too . . . pilot operated mixture levers are in the same class as spark advance levers on the early Fords . . . . ---------------------------------- >We are low RPM, constant speed - they are higher RPM, variable speed. >Of course any auto would see impressive gains in efficiency when >upgraded to an electronic system. Transplanting it to an a/c >engine and expecting the same improvement . . . . "SAME" is the operative word here. Lacking detailed analysis and demonstration we're in no position to compare in detailed quantitative terms. I'll suggest that ALL the positive attributes of electronic ignition and trivial cost in delta -dollars makes it a pretty easy decision. ----------------------------------- > . . . in efficiency "may" have to be demonstrated. All of the marketing >hype says its true - so show me the data. >Don't get me wrong, its wonderful technology its just not legally >required for our applications and no one has produced data to justify the >expense. Here lies the real hinge point for the discussion . . . I'll suggest that the benefits of electronic ignition are available to most builders for very little expense compared to the dollars spent on the rest of the airplane. ------------------------------------- >Extended life is an important claim for electronic ignition. It is >absolutely proven in autos and too obvious to ignore. It should be just as >dependable in aircraft but show me an aircraft system that doesn't leave a >mag-like capability for fail-safe back-up. Why does it have to be 1925 technology to be suitable for backup? How about fully redundant sources for dual systems as above? (See Sport Aviation 2/93, 6/94 and 8/95) ------------------------------------- >As the technology matures it will become 100% electronic and >100% fail safe - it is not so today. At that point it may also >be less expensive and you bet I'll be an user. Sales volumes for magnetos will continue to decline, costs will continue to rise. As Jeff and Klaus see their volumes rise, it will not go unnoticed by entrepreneurs who might just decide to enter the market themselves and bring new, lower cost ideas. If nothing else, it will help keep our friends honest but it may also be that neither Jeff nor Klaus will even be in business ten years from now . . . serve your customers or die . . it's the American way. IMHO, design, fabrication and installation of failure tolerant power plants with electronic ignition systems is already possible . . at nominal expense. ------------------------------------ I think the rub comes from our wimpishness as consumers of aviation products. It's the "policy" of most engine suppliers that magnetos be included ON the engine and IN the purchase price. If your engine supplier won't sell you a mag-less engine and give you fair credit for them, at least ask that they NOT be installed -and- that you be supplied with documentation showing NEW condition -or- yellow tags that will allow you to dispose of them to the certified market. The best bet is to not have to pay for them up front. At this stage of the development, no-one should have to spend more than $800 per system for electronic ignition . . ready to bolt on. The arguments as to "suitability" to task will undoubtedly rage on for some time to come . . . but then there are folk who prefer the "sound" of their vacuum tube Hi-Fi's and claim to hear a difference if the speaker cables are not gold plated. It's my fondest wish that opinions from every origin will come forward with reasons that will contribute to our collective education. Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
Subject: HVLP Gun
I painted a light metal flake accrilic enamel (dk. Chevy Red) on my wifes car with a compressor driven HVLP. It went on pretty much like any other paint. Flowed out very nicely. Eric Henson >>>>>Jim: Well, now I am encouraged to use the system I have. Has anyone had experience with metalflake and the HVLP systems??<<<<< Micheal RV-4 232SQ mikel(at)dimensional.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: FuelScan vs Shadin (was "fuel gauges")
>-------------- >>I am also at the fuel gauge stage. I ordered senders from Van last week not >>bothering to ask if these senders include gauges, if not will these senders >>work with any gauges that I purchase at a later date? Also isn't it >>neccessary to have a gauge to test the swing of the sending float for >>empty/full accurracy? >> >>Jerry Engel >>RV-6A "ready to order fuselage" >> > >Listers: > My solution (although expensive) was to put in the cheap gages to >indicate rough quantities in each tank, and a Shadin Fuel flow meter to >accurately tell me how much fuel I have. Coupled to the GPS, I ALWAYS >know if I can get to my destination. > >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV >wstucklen1(at)juno.com > >-------------- Listers, You should check out the Matronics FuelScan. The FuelScan is about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of the cheapest Shadin product, yet has more features and is of comparable or higher quality. The FuelScan uses a high quality, FAA approved fuel flow transducer and comes with an excellent and detailed installation and operational manual. If you are considering a fuel flow computer of any kind I encourage to take a serious look at the Matronics FuelScan. It is a top notch unit at a very reasonable price. For more information via the web check out: "http://www.matronics.com/fuelscan" or email your US Mail address to: info(at)matronics.com and request a brochure. If you have any questions about the FuelScan regarding installation or operation, please feel free to email me directly at "dralle(at)matronics.com". Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
>Remember, when installing the floats (plastic ?) for these cheap gages, >be sure to set them up such that they don't hit the top or bottom skins >of the the tank at the full or empty positions. If they do rub, they will >eventually wear a hole in the float....... Just a matter of curiosity for me at the moment... how do you calibrate your fuel level sensors? Presumably you want them to read accurately when in level flight attitude. So when parked on the ground won't the floats rub against the top or bottom skins? Frank. RV-6 24692, VS in the jig -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read". PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax), Marton | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv/ | -------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dougweil(at)pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: headsets
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Fellow Listers: One more quick question: Have any of you had any experience with the FliteCom series of headsets, specifically the Eclipse and Nighthawk 5-DX models. I know David Clarks are top of the line, but somewhat pricey. Doug Weiler, MN Wing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Electronic Ignition (fwd)
Date: Nov 04, 1996
JUST FOR THE RECORD: The IO-540 pistons are no 'bigger' than the IO-360 pistons. The bore is the same, you just have 6 pistons instead of 4. In fact, the IO320 has the same bore, the 360/540's just have a longer stroke. Herman dierks(at)austin.ibm.com > > >Do you need to replace both mags or can one be left for redundancy? > > You can replace one or both mags. However, MOST of your performance > increases will come from installing the FIRST electronic ignition. > Only on engines with BIG pistons (Like the IO-540) get much benefit > from a second ignition system. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen)
Subject: Re: spot corrosion fixable?
One advice I was given was to use a soft (brass) brush to work the alu-prep into the corroded spots. This seems to work well (unless entire surfaces are covered with tiny spots, in which case I scotchbrited with aluprep, sanded, scotchbrited and alodined and hoped for the best). Finn finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com You wrote: > > > I hope I'm being over-paranoid here... I have some spot corrosion on > the exterior of one of my elevator skins. The spots are just small (a > millimeter or two) in size and are not in any specific pattern or area > (they don't follow the grain of the metal). I haven't done anything > yet. > > I had similar spots on another piece and decided to replace that > piece. I don't want to replace the entire elevator. The parts will > sit for another couple of years before I get to the painting stage for > the entire aircraft. > > On the "trash" piece, I used alumiprep and scotchbright until my arm > was tired. I never did completely remove the spots. > > So... the question at hand... is there anything I can do? Will > alumiprep kill the corrosion if the spots are still visible? If I > etch the outside skin, should I go ahead and prime it for storage? > > BTW, the steps I follow for the interior pieces: > Clean (Acetone) > Etch (Alumiprep) > Conversion (alodine) > Epoxy primer (Akzo/Dexter Aerospace) > > thanks for the help, > > Russ Nichols > russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov > RV-6 > N495SW reserved, QB wing and fuse on the way > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen)
Subject: Sensors - Thanks to all who responed!
I got a lot of valuable advice re sensors and ways to find and use them. I'll try to post my results to the list when I've aquired and worked with what I find. Finn finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: headsets
I used to own a Flitecom headset. Also a Pilot Avionics headset. I sold em both when I discovered Peltors. By far the most comfortable headsets I've ever used, and they don't compromise on mic or speaker quality either. I flew from Oregon to Florida and back with one and although ANY headset will give you brain cramp in that period of time, it was much less than with just a short trip with any other I've ever tried. And no, I don't own stock in the company :-) (maybe I should buy some!) Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TimRV6A(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 1996
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
> The SW senders that Vans ships have metal floats. Previously they were > some sort of stiff foam. Hmm, must be several different ones in the inventory. Mine (arrived July 96) are plastic with a metal collar. Somebody else wrote: >Just a matter of curiosity for me at the moment... how do you calibrate your >fuel level sensors? Presumably you want them to read accurately when in >level flight attitude. So when parked on the ground won't the floats rub >against the top or bottom skins? One has to adjust the fuel sender arm length and angle so that the float NEARLY touches the top of the tank when deflected to it's upward stop, and NEARLY touches the bottom of the tank when deflected to it's lower stop. It's true that the result will likely show full even when the tank isn't completely full, and empty before the tank is truly empty. I always fly by time and fuel flow, so the gauges are only a backup. I was taught never to trust them. Tim Lewis RV6AQ #60023 TimRV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Electronic Ignition (fwd)
> JUST FOR THE RECORD: The IO-540 pistons are no 'bigger' than the > IO-360 pistons. The bore is the same, you just have 6 pistons instead > of 4. In fact, the IO320 has the same bore, the 360/540's just have > a longer stroke. > Herman > dierks(at)austin.ibm.com Herman, Thank you. I'll have to see if I can remember where I picked that tidbit of erroneous information up and get back with the source. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Mark Reisdorfer <73101.73(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: headsets
<Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: lasar electronic ignition
Dear List, I recently sent Van's a large cheque for a new motor including Lasar electronic ignition. Seemed like a good idea as any system I use has to be STC'd for Australian regs. Thus...... I am a little disapointed to see such strongly negative feelings being expressed about the system on the list. Is this just because it is less than it ought to be (ie: still relatively stone age technology) and therefore poor value for money or is there something more sinister that I should know about? I don't want to hear about reliability problems after the engine stops. Cheers, Leo(at)icn.su.oz.au ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Elon Ormsby <ormsby1(at)popsicle.llnl.gov>
Subject: Re: headsets
>I used to own a Flitecom headset. Also a Pilot Avionics headset. > >I sold em both when I discovered Peltors. By far the most comfortable >headsets I've ever used, and they don't compromise on mic or speaker >quality either. >Randall Henderson, RV-6 _______________________________ The Peltor 7004's are absolutely the best. Light weight, comfortable and quiet. You just can't describe the "comfort" factor. One flight and you will never wear green again. Elon Ormsby ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Harold Sutphin <hsutphin(at)magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: headsets
I agree completely. My wife and I both have Peltors. Very light and comfortable. Harold RV6A//Wing Kit// Elon Ormsby wrote: > > >I used to own a Flitecom headset. Also a Pilot Avionics headset. > > > >I sold em both when I discovered Peltors. By far the most comfortable > >headsets I've ever used, and they don't compromise on mic or speaker > >quality either. > > >Randall Henderson, RV-6 > > _______________________________ > > The Peltor 7004's are absolutely the best. Light weight, comfortable and > quiet. You just can't describe the "comfort" factor. One flight and you will > never wear green again. > > Elon Ormsby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K8DO(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 05, 1996
Subject: Re: HVLP Gun
Whether the gun is conventional or hvlp is immaterial... The battle here is that the flake tends (rapidly) to settle to the bottom of the paint cup... industry generally uses sophisticated (spell that 'expensive' ) paint cups which perform continuous mechanical stirring of the paint therein to keep the flake suspended... even then, flake dispersion is not always uniform... Get some cardboard and experiment... perhaps by using a quarter of a paint cup at a time and swirling the gun between every pass, you can keep it suspended... also, multiple passes of very thin paint to build it up in layers will help even the flake distribution... the paint type will dictate your approach... Let us know how you make out... Denny ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
Craig, I have fuel gauges purchased from Van's (SW). The only real problem with them is during installation I was so concerned with the "low" reading (which is fairly good) the gauge only reads 3/4 full with the tanks full. I really use them for: - they are required equipment - they give me an additional check to the VISUAL inspection that my tanks are full before I take off (yes I have been accused of ferrying unnecessary fuel but I don't care) - they give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that there is no hole or broken fuel line during flight (i.e. I still have fuel in both tanks) Otherwise, I really use a Radio Shack $12 timer to monitor fuel burn and my wrist watch as a back up. IMHO this is the only way to tell how much fuel you have consumed and how much flying time you have left (gph). Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z Albuquerque, NM dboudro(at)nmia.com > I would like to know what type of gauges others builders > using, if they are happy with them or not and why. > > > CRAIG HIERS > RV-4 N143CH > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com>
Subject: Oil Canning poll...
I just got the new RVator, and read Van's comments about oil canning on control surfaces. I'm sorry to say that my right elevator oil-cans in a couple of places. I can push on the skin in one place, and it "pops" up in the adjacent bay. In light of Van indicating the potential for "self-induced elevator motions" (i.e. flutter), I'm gonna feel a little less than confident when the big day comes to strap the airplane to my behind for the first time. I've read the archived comments about oil canning. I agree with the prevailing wisdom that the new pre-punched skins do not give one the latitude to stretch the skins taught, since they are pre-aligned to the punched spars. Even though out of the box, the skins seemed to be nice and tight, after I got through installing the stiffeners, I noticed the oil canning. My conclusion is that dimpling the skins for the stiffeners stretches (or "quilts") them slightly, and this slack has no place to go once the skins are riveted in place. Is there any way to fix this after closing the control surface? How about filling the surface with expanding foam? Anyway, this being Election Day, I'd like to take a simple poll. Respond to me directly at brian(at)lanart.com, and I'll post the results: 1) If you have a flying RV, can you demonstrate oil canning in the elevator/rudder when the plane is parked on the ramp (e.g. push in here, and it pops out there)? 2) If so, does this oil canning affect you in flight at all (funny pitching moments, oscillations, stick pulsations, etc.)? Thanks, -Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com Framingham, MA RV6A #24751 Left elevator/trim tab in process... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills)
Subject: Re: End Cap Adhesion
Eric, What do you mean "forced to"? I've seen very few cases where the fiberglass pieces from Van's fit properly out of the box. If you want to,for appearance sake, you certainly should glass these parts on (I did on mine, but I wouldnt if I had it to do over). If you dont want to glass in, but still want a good fit, then you need to cut, splice, section, fill, or build up the fiberglass pieces while they are temporarily attached to the structure. Use a release agent on the metal parts. and use West Systems, or equivalent epoxy and fiberglass for the fitting. West Systems is easy to use and is available at most good boating supply stores. Mike Wills RV-4 (wings) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil > > >Hi RV Gang, > >I think this has been covered before but I can't get to the archives with my >dog computer. I am forced to glass in the end caps on my tail feathers since >I made my cuts before I knew the golden rule of never cut until you have to. > >Since I forgot to pilfer some pro-seal from Paul Rosales yesterday at the >air races, I have no other sources for the stuff. So, does anyone have any >experience with off the shelf (not sold by A/C Spruce) epoxies. Reformed >glass builders, you must know of at least a dozen that will work. Any >tricks of the trade will be highly regarded. Bob Skinner are you out there? >I was going to wait until next Sat. night to post this in order to liven >things up for you, but I'm just about out of metal stuff to play with. > >Feel free to E-mail me privately since this is only a few clicks above >primer on the exitement meter. > >Eric Henson >Dana Point, CA > >ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: Edward Cole <emcole(at)concentric.net>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
Dan Boudro wrote: > > Craig, > I have fuel gauges purchased from Van's (SW). The only real problem with > them is during installation I was so concerned with the "low" reading > (which is fairly good) the gauge only reads 3/4 full with the tanks full. > I really use them for: > - they are required equipment > - they give me an additional check to the VISUAL inspection that > my tanks are full before I take off (yes I have been accused > of ferrying unnecessary fuel but I don't care) > - they give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that there is no hole > or broken fuel line during flight (i.e. I still have fuel in > both tanks) > Otherwise, I really use a Radio Shack $12 timer to monitor fuel burn and > my wrist watch as a back up. IMHO this is the only way to tell how much > fuel you have consumed and how much flying time you have left (gph). > > Dan Boudro > RV-4 N9167Z > Albuquerque, NM > dboudro(at)nmia.com > > > I would like to know what type of gauges others builders > > using, if they are happy with them or not and why. > > > > > > CRAIG HIERS > > RV-4 N143CH > >Concerning Fuel Guages: VDO makes a nice line of matching guages and are available from Racer's Wholesale or Summit Racing. The fuel guagues are $22 each. For those who have not orderd fuel senders, they do not come with fuel guages. Addresses to the above companies are in the archives or you can email me personally for them. ED Cole ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: F-672 Bad Fit
> I've checked the archives, but no help. When attempting to fit my > F-672(forward bottom fuselage skin), the edge of the skin came just to > the center of the pre-drilled holes in the lower longeron angle/weldment > just aft of the firewall. Has anyone else had the problem? If so, what > did you do for a fix? Tom at Van's says I can put rivets in the > pre-drilled holes and drill some new ones that the F-672 will reach. > Thanks. Mal rvbildr(at)aol.com No one has responded to this yet, so although I didn't have this problem, I'll give it a shot. Tom's advice sounds OK to me. However, since the bottom skin _underlaps_ the side skin, you may also have to trim the bottom skin so it won't interfere with the rivets that go through the side skins in the previously drilled holes. It might also be a good idea to taper the edge so there's a smoother transition, seeing as how there are rivets going through the overlapping skin so close to the edge of the bottom skin. The only alternative I see would be to get another bottom skin custom made oversized. I think if it were me I'd probably just drill the new holes. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Stockberger" <stockberger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Rivets: a really silly question
Date: Nov 05, 1996
No one else has responded, so I will jump in. Aluminum wire of the proper alloy is heated to a temperature that gives it maximum ductility. It is fed through a machine that snips off a piece and forms the head. I have never seen one of these, but have been inside Winnabago Industries (the motor home people) aluminum extrusion plant. Aluminum, heated to the right temperature, is about as workable as peanut butter, hard steel tooling lasts for years. ---------- > From: Joe Larson <showpg.mn.org!jpl(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Rivets: a really silly question > Date: Saturday, November 02, 1996 8:33 AM > > Hey -- > > Can anyone explain how rivets are made in the first place? > > -J > > -- > Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 > Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg > 14190 47th Ave N. > Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Stockberger" <stockberger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: lasar electronic ignition
Date: Nov 05, 1996
Leo: There is some degree of antagonism in the USA between experimental and non-experimental aviation. Any new product that an established airframe, engine or accessory manufacturer introduces is met with criticism. The critics are largely the same people who complain that they (the manufacturers) are still in the dark ages. My personal opinion: The Lasar ignition is an excellent product, a nearly perfect combination of variable timing and stone simple failure backup. I just wish they had a certified competitor so the price would come down. Randy Stockberger stockberger(at)proaxis.com ---------- > From: Leo Davies <icn.su.OZ.AU!leo(at)matronics.com> > I am a little disapointed to see such strongly negative feelings being > expressed about the system on the list. Is this just because it is less than > it ought to be (ie: still relatively stone age technology) and therefore > poor value for money or is there something more sinister that I should know > about? I don't want to hear about reliability problems after the engine stops. > > Cheers, > > Leo(at)icn.su.oz.au > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: <zgifford(at)titude.arc.nasa.gov> (Zelda Gifford)
Subject: Re: headsets
Don`t know if Peltor has an active noise reduction version yet. However, I've got the Sennheiser ANR which uses the Peltor "chassis". Only the innards are different from a real Peltor. Light, comfortable (you bend it open til it feels good), close to the head for canopy clearance (acro plus) and I think it was $200 cheaper than similar ANR Bose. (Incidentally, I have a friend who gave up on her Bose and switched to the Sennheiser ANR). Zelda RV6A//flying// P.S. My Sigtronics Flitecom headset (bought earlier) outlasted my Flitecom headset. Flitecom charged me, maybe, $20 to "fix" it; it still doesn`t work right. :-( ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: "Anne B. Hiers" <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: fuel gauges
listers thanks to all who responded to my questions about the fuel gauges. Larry Scheer said he was using VDO gauges and I noticed that the 1996 EMERGNCEY-ONE fire engine that I drive at work has VDO gauges. If its good enough for my fire engine its good enough for my plane. CRAIG HIERS N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 05, 1996
Subject: Re: headsets
> Have any of you had any experience with the FliteCom series of headsets, > specifically the Eclipse and Nighthawk 5-DX models. I know David Clarks are > top of the line, but somewhat pricey. I purchased two Eclipse headsets for my 6A about 6 months ago. Very comfortable, and noise attenuation is very good. The stereo quality is quite good as well. I'm very happy with them. Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 1996
From: "Anne B. Hiers" <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: FUEL GAUGES
: > > listers > > thanks to all who responded to my questions about the fuel gauges. > Larry Scheer said he was using VDO gauges and I noticed that the > 1996 EMERGNCEY-ONE fire engine that I drive at work has VDO gauges. > If its good enough for my fire engine its good enough for my plane. > > CRAIG HIERS > N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: mmartin(at)perigee.net (Mitchell Martin)
Subject: QB Deliverly
To All: My RV-6Q(less tail feathers)is being delivered today (Wednesday). I have the tail section almost finished and can't wait to start the "big pieces" of this wonderful puzzle. -- Regards, Mitch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Martin Electronics Co. --- Communications Electronics and Computers FCC Licenced and NABER Certified Technician ---- Amatuer Radio KA4OBE mailto:mmartin@perigee.net -------- http://www.perigee.net/~mmartin Finger mmartin(at)mail.perigee.net for PGP Public Key * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Re: QB Deliverly
Congrats on the quickbuild Mitch, I have just finished my empenage and have started on the QB fuselage; A couple of areas already have reminded me to inspect and plan carefully. 1. The predrilled baggage floor had "run out" on the holes drilled for the rivet line in the left center rib... So much that I could not get nut plates installed in the last two positions, and I had to plug the holes and drill two new ones. 2. The mounting hinges for the seat are not exactly as the print. Not a big deal, unless you do as I did and manufacture 6 hinges to mount on the floor, according to the print, and then discover that the one finished QB seatback has the hinge configuered differently. More lost time...! IT'S STILL GREAT TO GET ONTO THE BIG PARTS....! Ron Vandervort, rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Mitchell Martin wrote: > To All: > > My RV-6Q(less tail feathers)is being delivered today (Wednesday). I have > the tail section almost finished and can't wait to start the "big > pieces" of this wonderful puzzle. > > -- > > Regards, Mitch > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Martin Electronics Co. --- Communications Electronics and Computers > FCC Licenced and NABER Certified Technician ---- Amatuer Radio KA4OBE > mailto:mmartin@perigee.net -------- http://www.perigee.net/~mmartin > Finger mmartin(at)mail.perigee.net for PGP Public Key > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
How about pulling out the senders and putting the proseal on the top & bottom of the float? Royce Craven roycec(at)ozemail.com.au > >> Remember, when installing the floats (plastic ?) for these cheap gages, >> be sure to set them up such that they don't hit the top or bottom skins >> of the the tank at the full or empty positions. If they do rub, they will >> eventually wear a hole in the float....... > >The SW senders that Vans ships have metal floats. Previously they were >some sort of stiff foam. > >I think it would be a good idea to smear a little area of proseal >on the top and bottom skin where the float would contact it if >it bottomed out. Unfortunately I thought of this AFTER I closed up >my tanks.... I suppose I still could do it through the access hole. > >My opinion on Vans senders and gauges: I think the senders that Vans >is currently shipping look fine. I'm sure there are better sender/ >gauge setups but I'll still stick the tank before flight anyway. Plus >I'd rather buy a fuel computer such as the Matronics unit and get the >redundancy of gauges AND fuel flow, rather than spend the money on >better fuel gauges and senders. > >Randall Henderson, RV-6 >randall(at)edt.com >http://www.edt.com/homewing > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: info
I cannot get to John Hovans page any more. Is there a new address? As well does anyone know the address for cleaveland tools. Thanks in advance. Tom Martin RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: QB Deliverly
> >My RV-6Q(less tail feathers)is being delivered today (Wednesday). I have >the tail section almost finished and can't wait to start the "big >pieces" of this wonderful puzzle. > >Regards, Mitch Congratulations Mitch, and have fun with your new toy. I am satisfied with my quickbuild, there are two things I have noticed you may want to be aware of. One, my kit's bill of materials has many overages and shortages of what is actually needed (not a complaint, something to be expected on a "new" kit and Van's has been great in getting me the parts I was short on). Two, I changed the build sequence somewhat. Instead of working on the fuse, then the wings, tail, and back to the fuse; I opted to finish the tail first, next I'll do the wings, and then everything on the fuse. Seems like a time saver...but I expect a gotcha' somewhere in my logic . Rob Acker / RV-6Q E-mail: r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com RV-6Q Project: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <Rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: Re: info
Tom Martin wrote: > > I cannot get to John Hovans page any more. Is there a new address? As well > does anyone know the address for cleaveland tools. Thanks in advance. > > Tom Martin > RV-4 Yes... There is a new address for Hovan's page: rv.austin.apple.com/jhovan/home.html -- Rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel gauges
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Frank, First, be advised, that because of the dihedral in the wing, there is no way to make a fuel gage, based upon a mechanical float sensor, accurate. With the float on the fuselage end of the tank, it doesn't begin to move off FULL until the quantity of fuel int he tank is about 3/4's full. However, it will accurately indicate when the tank is empty. What I did was setup the sensor to indicate FULL on the fuel gage when the float was closest to the top of the tank, and EMPTY when it was closest to the bottom of the tank. This resulted in the needle coming off FULL whent he tank is accually about 3/4 FULL. But when the needle reads EMPTY, I had better be on the ground! Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: >>Remember, when installing the floats (plastic ?) for these cheap gages, >>be sure to set them up such that they don't hit the top or bottom skins >>of the the tank at the full or empty positions. If they do rub, theywill >>eventually wear a hole in the float....... > >Just a matter of curiosity for me at the moment... how do you calibrate your >fuel level sensors? Presumably you want them to read accurately when in >level flight attitude. So when parked on the ground won't the floats rub >against the top or bottom skins? > >Frank. >RV-6 24692, VS in the jig > >-- >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; >Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel >Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read". >PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax), Marton | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" >http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv/ | >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FuelScan vs Shadin (was "fuel gauges")
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Matt, I agree 100%....... Wish I had know about yours before I bought the Shadin...... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com 510-606-1001) writes: > >>-------------- >>>I am also at the fuel gauge stage. I ordered senders from Van last >week not >>>bothering to ask if these senders include gauges, if not will these >senders >>>work with any gauges that I purchase at a later date? Also isn't it >>>neccessary to have a gauge to test the swing of the sending float >for >>>empty/full accurracy? >>> >>>Jerry Engel >>>RV-6A "ready to order fuselage" >>> >> >>Listers: >> My solution (although expensive) was to put in the cheap gages to >>indicate rough quantities in each tank, and a Shadin Fuel flow meter >to >>accurately tell me how much fuel I have. Coupled to the GPS, I ALWAYS >>know if I can get to my destination. >> >>Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV >>wstucklen1(at)juno.com >> >>-------------- > > >Listers, > >You should check out the Matronics FuelScan. The FuelScan is about >1/2 to >2/3 the cost of the cheapest Shadin product, yet has more features and >is >of comparable or higher quality. The FuelScan uses a high quality, >FAA >approved fuel flow transducer and comes with an excellent and detailed > >installation and operational manual. If you are considering a fuel >flow >computer of any kind I encourage to take a serious look at the >Matronics >FuelScan. It is a top notch unit at a very reasonable price. > >For more information via the web check out: > > "http://www.matronics.com/fuelscan" > >or email your US Mail address to: > > info(at)matronics.com > >and request a brochure. > >If you have any questions about the FuelScan regarding installation or > >operation, please feel free to email me directly at >"dralle(at)matronics.com". > >Thank you, > >Matt Dralle >Matronics > > > >-- > >Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 >510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email >http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Bob, Can the right side mag on a O-320D1A be used as a left mag (assuming it is OFF on start)? isn't there a rotation direction problem? I know that there are internal markings in the new Slick mags indicating left & right rotation. Can a -R (right side mag) be resetup for left rotation? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: >-------------------------------- >>If a mag can be retained, which, the standard or the one with the >>impulse coupler? > > Either. The engine should start BEST using electronic ignition > so the impulse coupler is no longer imperative. If you're lucky, > the mags will fit in EITHER hole so one can be used as a spare > for the other . . . > > ********************************************** > * CAUTION * > * If the magneto you chose to pair * > * with electronic ignition does NOT * > * have an impulse coupler, make sure * > * this mag is OFF during engine cranking. * > * I usually interlock mag and electronic * > * ignition so that starter cannot be ener- * > * gized while magneto is hot. Failure to * > * observe this caveat can reward you with * > * "kick=back" during cranking with breath- * > * taking effects on your checkbook. * > ********************************************** > **** SNIP ******* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Wiza" <joe(at)flnet.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Canning poll...
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Brian Except for counter weights tips and fiber tips I have just finished my empennage kit. I have some oil canning in the rudder and both elevators (prepunched kit) I asked the factory about this and they said dont worry about it they all have some to different degrees. So I guess I wont worry about it. However would be interest to know what you found out. ---------- > From: Brian Yablon <lanart.com!brian(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Oil Canning poll... > Date: Tuesday, November 05, 1996 10:23 AM > > > I just got the new RVator, and read Van's comments about oil canning > on control surfaces. I'm sorry to say that my right elevator oil-cans > in a couple of places. I can push on the skin in one place, and it > "pops" up in the adjacent bay. In light of Van indicating the > potential for "self-induced elevator motions" (i.e. flutter), I'm > gonna feel a little less than confident when the big day comes to > strap the airplane to my behind for the first time. > > I've read the archived comments about oil canning. I agree with the > prevailing wisdom that the new pre-punched skins do not give one the > latitude to stretch the skins taught, since they are pre-aligned to > the punched spars. Even though out of the box, the skins seemed to be > nice and tight, after I got through installing the stiffeners, I > noticed the oil canning. My conclusion is that dimpling the skins for > the stiffeners stretches (or "quilts") them slightly, and this slack > has no place to go once the skins are riveted in place. Is there any > way to fix this after closing the control surface? How about filling > the surface with expanding foam? > > > Anyway, this being Election Day, I'd like to take a simple poll. > Respond to me directly at brian(at)lanart.com, and I'll post the results: > > 1) If you have a flying RV, can you demonstrate oil canning in the > elevator/rudder when the plane is parked on the ramp (e.g. push > in here, and it pops out there)? > > 2) If so, does this oil canning affect you in flight at all (funny > pitching moments, oscillations, stick pulsations, etc.)? > > > Thanks, > > -Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com > Framingham, MA > RV6A #24751 > Left elevator/trim tab in process... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Brian Huffaker <huffaker(at)utw.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Canning poll...
On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Brian Yablon wrote: > [snip oil canning concerns] > > I've read the archived comments about oil canning. I agree with the > prevailing wisdom that the new pre-punched skins do not give one the > latitude to stretch the skins taught, since they are pre-aligned to > the punched spars. Even though out of the box, the skins seemed to be > nice and tight, after I got through installing the stiffeners, I > noticed the oil canning. My conclusion is that dimpling the skins for > the stiffeners stretches (or "quilts") them slightly, and this slack > has no place to go once the skins are riveted in place. Is there any > way to fix this after closing the control surface? How about filling > the surface with expanding foam? > Don't know how to fix this after the fact, found a way to prevent it in the first place. What I did was to use by bucking bars to hold the skin down during drilling. After drilling a stiffner and clecoing it to the table, put the bucking bars in the bay between that one and the one you are drilling to hold the skin flat. Seemed to work for me. Unfortunantly I came up with this method half way thru the left elevator, so only the left bottom elevator is oil canning free. Am very interested in any results of this poll. [snip poll] Brian Huffaker, DSWL (huffaker(at)utw.com) President and Founder Friends of P-Chan AW # 467 Biff Tarkiss RV-8 80091 Drilling trim tab spar. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Louise Coats <lcoats(at)wave.co.nz>
Subject: Smoking rivets revisited
RVators..... Oh, no not this topic again?! I have checked the archives but there does not seem to be a definite answer there. I have posted this as a fellow RV6 builder has asked what the current plan is for preventing/reducing the incidence of smoking rivets on the 601, 604 and floor stiffeners. Every RV in this country - (including ZK-RVL (and except the one that flew two weeks ago!)) that I have looked under has smoking rivets and all the ones that I saw in Oregan also had the same problem. Has anyone had any recent conversations with those people at Van's about putting AN470 in the firewall, floor stiffeners and wing (604)? I figure with all the dirty air down under these minor protrusions will not affect speed but its just the cometics.......! To save list space Email me direct if you prefer. lcoats(at)wave.co.nz Thanks in advance. RV6 139hr and enjoying it so much! Louise ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets revisited
The fix autorized by Van's is this: 1) Firewall/bellypan--machine countersink firewall; dimple countersink bellypan; use #4 rivets. 2) Bellypan/604--machine countersink the F677+F676 in place over the F604; dimple countersink the bellypan; use #4 rivets (note-this will lead to an over countersinking of F677+F676 similar to where the turtledeck rivets to the side skins) I also did this: 1) Used #4 rivets on the stiffeners; dimple countersinking the bellypan. 2) Fabricated two braces running from the top of the spar to the two center floor stiffeners about 12 inches forward of the spar. This will add stiffness to the floor to reduce vibration I plan on putting 1" stiff foam insulation on the floor and cover with wool carpeting. This will further reduce vibration. Ross Mickey 6A Fuse out of jig >RVators..... > >Oh, no not this topic again?! I have checked the archives but there does >not seem to be a definite answer there. I have posted this as a fellow RV6 >builder has asked what the current plan is for preventing/reducing the >incidence of smoking rivets on the 601, 604 and floor stiffeners. Every RV >in this country - (including ZK-RVL (and except the one that flew two weeks >ago!)) that I have looked under has smoking rivets and all the ones that I >saw in Oregan also had the same problem. Has anyone had any recent >conversations with those people at Van's about putting AN470 in the >firewall, floor stiffeners and wing (604)? I figure with all the dirty air >down under these minor protrusions will not affect speed but its just the >cometics.......! To save list space Email me direct if you prefer. >lcoats(at)wave.co.nz > >Thanks in advance. > >RV6 139hr and enjoying it so much! >Louise > > > Ross Mickey rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets revisited
Actually, this was addressed in an issue of the RVator this year, where Van's made suggestions for "repairs" as well as proposing the use of -4 rivets for new construction. Check it out! Sorry, I don't remember the issue off the top of my head. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: RV-4 wing kit
Well the good news is I am going to build another RV. Van's received my deposit today, The bad news is that RV4 wing kits will take 12 to 14 weeks. This will be past my "January free time slot". Anyone out there have a RV4 wing kit/and or fuse kit in a box they would like to sell? Please Email me directly with details. Thank you Tom Martin RV4 200hours, love it so much I am going to start again! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: John E Musser <jemusser(at)tenet.edu>
Subject: RV-LIST: Archive file
Sunday night I finally retreived the RV-List archive file. A few points of interest... 1. The WEALTH OF INFORMATION!!! I couldn't believe the combined expertise the file represents! I can finally understand the consternation a primer discussion brings up... ;-} The word "primer" occurs in at least a thousand messages (out of over 16,000) 2. My internet access is cludgy at best, but what can I expect for $5.00 a year paid by my employer? I could only download through LYNX, with Kermit protocol. The archive took 8 hours to download at an average speed of 291 bps. This is even with a 28.8 connection... I left my computer at it overnight, and the next morning, voila! 3. Perhaps Matt would consider splitting the archive file at some point (like the end of the calendar year!) 8mb compressed, and over 20 mb uncompressed is getting on the ragged edge! 4. I can't imagine building an RV without the resources of the list. It was really fun watching some of the "Old Timers" now asking newbie questions like I find myself pondering now! The archive and the Windows search utility are a definite MUST HAVE! John jemusser(at)tenet.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clark, James" <jclark(at)mmsmtp2.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Ronald Vandervort
Subject: QB Deliverly (+other QB notes)
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Comments inserted below with ... Good to see yet another QB'er getting going. James Getting started .... ---------- From: Ronald Vandervort[SMTP:linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us!rvanderv(at)matronics.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 1996 12:25 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: QB Deliverly Congrats on the quickbuild Mitch, I have just finished my empenage and have started on the QB fuselage; A couple of areas already have reminded me to inspect and plan carefully. This is probably the "optimum" scenario. YOu have done enough to really understand things and as a result will be able to move much faster on (appreciate more the work of) the QB. 1. The predrilled baggage floor had "run out" on the holes drilled for the rivet line in the left center rib... So much that I could not get nut plates installed in the last two positions, and I had to plug the holes and drill two new ones. I also discovered the need for some of the "one legged" (both rivets on same side) nut plates at the bend. Seemed to have been an oversight in the packing (not on the shipping list but in the plans. Did you have this problem?? After a quick call, mine should be on the way from Van's. 2. The mounting hinges for the seat are not exactly as the print. Not a big deal, unless you do as I did and manufacture 6 hinges to mount on the floor, according to the print, and then discover that the one finished QB seatback has the hinge configuered differently. More lost time...! Being a "newbie" to this, I discovered **late** that the hinge at the bottom of the seat back is the critical item. Those of you who are headed to this section be sure and not make this little oversight. Now I must get a wider version of the hinge and re-drill. IT'S STILL GREAT TO GET ONTO THE BIG PARTS....! Ron Vandervort, rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Mitchell Martin wrote: > To All: > > My RV-6Q(less tail feathers)is being delivered today (Wednesday). I have > the tail section almost finished and can't wait to start the "big > pieces" of this wonderful puzzle. > > -- > > Regards, Mitch > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Martin Electronics Co. --- Communications Electronics and Computers > FCC Licenced and NABER Certified Technician ---- Amatuer Radio KA4OBE > mailto:mmartin@perigee.net -------- http://www.perigee.net/~mmartin > Finger mmartin(at)mail.perigee.net for PGP Public Key > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > The following binary file has been uuencoded to ensure successful transmission. 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From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Nov 06, 1996
Subject: Re: Archive file
>-------------- >Sunday night I finally retreived the RV-List archive file. A few points >of interest... > >1. The WEALTH OF INFORMATION!!! I couldn't believe the combined >expertise the file represents! I can finally understand the >consternation a primer discussion brings up... ;-} The word "primer" >occurs in at least a thousand messages (out of over 16,000) > > > >4. I can't imagine building an RV without the resources of the list. It >was really fun watching some of the "Old Timers" now asking newbie >questions like I find myself pondering now! > >John >jemusser(at)tenet.edu >-------------- John and Listers: If you like the Archive now, just wait until its available on CDROM! I'm about 2/3 done with an impressive search utility designed exclusivly for the RV and Zenith archive files. The utility runs on Windows (3.x with win32, 95 and NT) as well as on the Macintosh. The CDROM version of the Archive includes extensive indexing of the data and returns all matchs of AND, OR, and ONLY queries in 1 or 2 seconds! The default mode returns the Subject and Date from each of the matching messages. These subject lines can then be clicked on to display the complete message, beautifully cleaned up and reformatted in Rich Text Format (RTF). Another mode of operation allows all messages to be returned and viewed at once. All messages data can of course be printed to local ink jet or laser printers and looks exactly as displayed on the screen. Message matches can also be saved as separate files for printing or review later. If you're building an RV and have a computer with a CDROM drive, this is a must have! As John stated above, there is a veritable wealth of infomation in the archive. If the topic is on RVs, its been discussed at least once on this List. Using the new search engine, everyone of these helpful nuggets of information can be at your disposal in seconds. The CDROM will be $39 in single quanities and hopefully available in 1 - 2 months. If you are interested in the CDROM, and havn't done so already, please send an email message as described below to reserve your copy. I will contact you by email when it is available. To reserve your copy please send a message with the following attributes: To: info(at)matronics.com Subject: CDROM - WINDOWS 3.1 (win32 version) or CDROM - WINDOWS 95/NT (95/NT version) or CDROM - MAC (Mac version) or CDROM - BOTH (Both Windows and Mac version) or CDROM - OTHER (Other systems like UNIX) Body: Note that *all* versions of the Archive Search program (Windows, Mac) will be included on the CDROM. The plateform data is for development information only. Hope this didn't sound too 'commercial'! I'm really excited about the new program and CDROM, and hope everyone will give it a try. Thanks, Matt Dralle RV-List Admin. Matronics -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Canopy Scratch Repair
can someone tell me where "Mirror Glaze HGH-17" is available. I have some minor marring of my canopy to polish out. Van's recommends this stuff in their Plexiglass Hints which come with the canopy. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: kightdm(at)carol.net (Danny Kight)
Subject: Re: KX-170 vs. KX-170B
A quick question for anyone knowledgable of King radios: What is the difference between a KX-170 and a KX-170B? You can repond directly to me. Thanks, Danny Kight kightdm(at)carol.net RV-6 (first wing in the jig) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: Jac Mahler <jax(at)brett.reno.nv.us>
Subject: Re: Canopy Scratch Repair
chester razer wrote: > > can someone tell me where "Mirror Glaze HGH-17" is > available. I have some minor marring of my canopy to polish > out. Van's recommends this stuff in their Plexiglass Hints > which come with the canopy. > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net Most airport FBO'S carry a plexi glass cleaner/polisher similar to Mirror glaze #17. But Mirror Glace or similar product can be purchased at any motorcycle shop that carry full dress motorcycle equipment. If all else fails, TR-3 resen glaze car polise will do the same, and may be less abrasive than #17. Jax, on my RV-6A wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Subject: Re: metalflake paint, was HVLP Gun
While you're at it, comment on the difference between settling rate of the newer mica-based pearlescent finishes vs aluminum metalflake. Bill Boyd RV-6A canopy SportAV8R(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Subject: Re: Archive file
<< CDROM - WINDOWS 95/NT (95/NT version) >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
Subject: Pearlescent Paint Process
Good Topic Bill, Learning to paint pearlescent is high on my list of priorities. I am absolutely taken with the paint job on Nemisis and every time a Cadillac or Lexus passes me I say "oooh baby, that's what my plane is going to look like". If anyone has experience painting pearl I'd love to ask you some dumb questions about the process. Also if someone happens to know the exact paint that the two guys from Nebraska (Sport Av. August, I believe) used I'd greatly appreciate the info. Eric Henson Almost done with the tail feathers ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com >>>While you're at it, comment on the difference between settling rate of the newer mica-based pearlescent finishes vs aluminum metalflake.<<<<<<< Bill Boyd RV-6A canopy SportAV8R(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Yeller pages online
For the convenience of all RV enthusiasts, I finally got around to adding Gary VanRemortel's RV Builders' Yeller Pages to my web site. The URL direct to the Yeller Pages is http://www.sound.net/~hartmann/yelrpage.htm. You can also get there by going to my HomeBuilt Page at http://www.sound.net/~hartmann and follow the link to RVs then builder hints. Be sure and tell Gary thanks. - Mike hartmann(at)sound.net http://www.sound.net/~hartmann ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fegg2251(at)uwwvax.uww.edu
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Subject: Digital Cameras
i HAVE USED THE APPLE QUICK TAKE CAMERA. I AM NOT VERY IMPRESSED WITH IT, PERHAPS BECAUSE IT WAS THE LOW END MODEL. I WOULD STICK WITH 35mm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fegg2251(at)uwwvax.uww.edu
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Subject: Location
to ed cole: as a new builder I would like to view some other projects and acquire first hand tips. It would be great if next week all that would be interested in your idea or participating would post your requested info. WAYNE FEGGESTAD W3604 GREENBUSH JUDA, WI. 53550 608-934-1902 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Builders Tip -Reply
And when its still a little to long you can chuck it up and hold it against your vertical belt sander or 3m buffer wheel to knock a few thousands off the end equally. >>> chester razer 10/27/96 04:32pm >>> If you're tired of hurting your hands when cutting short lengths of small dia. tubing to be used for spacers (you'll do several during the course of building your RV) simply chuck up the tubing in your variable speed electric or battery drill and use it to turn the tubing while your other hand tightens the cutting wheel of your tubing cutter. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allan W. Mojzisik" <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List email question for Allen M.
Date: Nov 07, 1996
To all RV listers, This is an open apology to all you guys who seem to get all kinds of = garbage with my E-mail. (Maybe some even think that includes the = content.) Anyway I have no idea where it is comming from or what it is. = I don't see it when I see my messages posted to the list and I don't = think it happens all the time. On the bright side, I am in the process = of having a new 686 system built and I think I will get rid of this = Delrina CommSuite and get Netscapes or just use the MS stuff that came = with my Win95. If anyone sees it and knows how it is generated and how = to shut it off, I would really like to hear from you. Thanks = ...........Al = = prober(at)iwaynet.net ---------- From: RV4Brown(at)aol.com[SMTP:RV4Brown(at)aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 1996 2:04 PM Subject: RV-List email question for Allen M. Dear Allen, You placed an email response yesterday on the rv-list. I have a question you may be able to answer. I utilize AOL to access the list. I have noticed that from time to = time the email messages come attached with files. Your message today came = with a file titled as RVlistpr.dat (2119 bytes) . I don't have a clue as to = what these files are, where they originate or how to open them. Since this = one came with your message, I thought you might be able shed some light. I = have asked this question of Matte Dralle the administrator, he did not have = any idea what they were either. If you generated the file or have any idea = where it may have come from, I would appreciate knowing what they are. Thankyou RV4-Brown Monroe, NY Completing wing assembly - lots of rivets - great fun! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: David Chasnoff <74620.2053(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RV-4 wing kit
Tom, I might be interested in selling mine. Contact me at 74620.2053(at)Compuserve.Com as I dont have your address. David Chasnoff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Ron Caldwell <RLCaldwell(at)chq.byu.edu>
Subject: RV Screen Saver
Has anyone produced an RV computer screen saver program which has password protection capability. I would like to install one on my work computer but by policy it must has password protection capability to unlock the keyboard and return back to my active windows session. I would much prefer looking at pictures of RV's rather than my current Mystique screen saver. Ron Caldwell RV6A - N655RV Reserved RLCaldwell(at)chq.byu.edu (ProSealing Fuel Tanks) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: lsmith(at)coastalnet.com (Louis E. Smith Jr.)
Subject: Lycoming for Sale
For sale: Lycoming O-320-A2B, 1740TTSN, 525SMOH, 40STOH with new mags and harness. Firewall foward minus prop. Asking $9900.00. This engine is not mine but a listing for a friend. This engine is located in Crossville, TN. Please contact Whit Whitson at (615) 484-6016. He is the owner and an A$P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Terry Mortimore <terry.mortimore(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: oil canning
Hello fellow builders: With all this talk of oil canning, I went out and had another look at my ailerons. Fortunately there is no oil canning that I can find. I am a first time builder so this is either dumb luck or devine intervention. I'll explain how I went about it, hopefully it will help another builder. The aileron was built on top of a piece of 5/8" particle board, the skin stiffeners were placed onto the skin and drilled down through the skin and into the board. A cleco was then placed into each hole, well into the particle board and left there until all the stiffeners were drilled. This method seems to have worked for me, hope it helps. terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca (joehine)
Subject: RV4 Sliders
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Hello All Can anyone comment on the plans and manuel advertised in the last Rvator for a sliding canopy for the RV4. To me it is the one thing I would change with the aircraft. I havent seen any sliders as yet and was wondering about other peoples views on this package. thanks joe joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca Comp. 9, Site 8, RR#4 506-452-1072 Home Fredericton, NB 506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3B 4X5 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 1996
From: mmartin(at)perigee.net (Mitchell Martin)
Subject: Re: QB Deliverly
Ronald Vandervort wrote: > > Congrats on the quickbuild Mitch, > > I have just finished my empenage and have started on the QB > fuselage; A couple of areas already have reminded me to inspect and plan > carefully. > 1. The predrilled baggage floor had "run out" on the holes drilled > for the rivet line in the left center rib... So much that I could not get > nut plates installed in the last two positions, and I had to plug the > holes and drill two new ones. > 2. The mounting hinges for the seat are not exactly as the print. > Not a big deal, unless you do as I did and manufacture 6 hinges to mount > on the floor, according to the print, and then discover that the one > finished QB seatback has the hinge configuered differently. More lost > time...! > > IT'S STILL GREAT TO GET ONTO THE BIG PARTS....! > > Ron Vandervort, rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us > Thanks Ron. I hope that I can learn from your (and fellow builders) experience and hopefully save myself some time in the process. -- Regards, Mitch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Martin Electronics Co. --- Communications Electronics and Computers FCC Licenced and NABER Certified Technician ---- Amatuer Radio KA4OBE mailto:mmartin@perigee.net -------- http://www.perigee.net/~mmartin Finger mmartin(at)mail.perigee.net for PGP Public Key * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 1996
Subject: Tach question
I'm finishing taxi testing and I have a question regarding my electronic tach. It's an UMA, 2.25" and it seems to work fine up to about 2200 rpm. As you go past that the tach goes crazy and fluctuates between 2300 and 3000. I have it installed on the right mag, the docs do not mention installing it on one mag or the other. Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero (due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric tach. Thanks, Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Edward Cole <emcole(at)concentric.net>
Subject: Re: RV Screen Saver
Ron Caldwell wrote: > > Has anyone produced an RV computer screen saver program which has > password protection capability. I would like to install one on my work > computer but by policy it must has password protection capability to > unlock the keyboard and return back to my active windows session. I > would much prefer looking at pictures of RV's rather than my current > Mystique screen saver. > > Ron Caldwell > RV6A - N655RV Reserved > RLCaldwell(at)chq.byu.edu > (ProSealing Fuel Tanks)Ron, Afterdark has/had a pretty good password protected screen saver to which you could add your own bitmaps. I've got several rv bitmaps of aircraft and of cockpit shots if you need copies. Ed Cole RV6A Wings emcole(at)concentric.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Dana Breda <rv6av8r(at)ols.net>
Subject: Re: flame polishing canopy?
>when I was buying acrylic sheets for a spa roof I noticed that >Multi-Craft also fabricates plastic bins etc... After filing the edges >they flame polish them to a clear glasslike finish with a quick pass of a >hydrogen flame. I tried this with my MAP gas plumbing torch and seemed >to accomplish the same results. It was nice to smooth the holes which >were used to hold the sheets down to the rafters. Has anyone done the >same with their canopy? I believe it is the identical material >(plexiglass). Are there other problems I've missed? My spa roof is not >cracking despite a high wind location. kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com > > Hi list, Haven't read my mail in the last few days-only saw one reply to this, so here's my experience... I used to be in the glazing business-did a lot of plastic (acrylic & polycarbonate) work, include flame polishing. I flame-polished the rear edge of my -6 canopy using a plain 'ol propane torch. It works fine, but practice on scrap first. Get the edge as good as you can get it with sandpaper, then make one or two quick, smooth passes with the torch. Don't overdo the "polishing". You'll be tempted to make just one more pass to really do it good, but that last one will get you :) The key is a good edge before flame polishing. Also, I cut my canopy in half using a Moto tool with its little bitty cutoff wheel. Worked fine and only lost about 1/32" of material. Allowed plenty for sanding, polishing, etc. Dana Breda N138DB Flying since '92 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: Tach question
>I'm finishing taxi testing and I have a question regarding my electronic >tach. It's an UMA, 2.25" and it seems to work fine up to about 2200 rpm. As >you go past that the tach goes crazy and fluctuates between 2300 and 3000. > >I have it installed on the right mag, the docs do not mention installing it >on one mag or the other. > >Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero >(due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a >way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric >tach. > >Thanks, >Ed Bundy >ebundy2620(at)aol.com > Ed I have the same tach and have had to send it back to UMA twice. There has been no charge. The next time it goes back I am going to tell them to keep it. Tom Martin RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 1996
From: John Ciolino <jbc1(at)ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: Tach question
>I'm finishing taxi testing and I have a question regarding my electronic >tach. It's an UMA, 2.25" and it seems to work fine up to about 2200 rpm. As >you go past that the tach goes crazy and fluctuates between 2300 and 3000. > >I have it installed on the right mag, the docs do not mention installing it >on one mag or the other. > >Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero >(due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a >way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric >tach. > >Thanks, >Ed Bundy >ebundy2620(at)aol.com > Ed, I installed an UMA tach in my Kitfox and had the same problem (but at a higher RPM). Called UMA who said mine was a older model that did not have some internal shielding to block radio interference. I sent it back to them, they fixed it and marked the RPM ranges for free. Bought my unit in 1992. I'd call UMA for advice. John Ciolino RV-8 Tail feathers waiting for bad weather> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: Terry Mortimore <terry.mortimore(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RV Screen Saver
Ron Caldwell wrote: > > Has anyone produced an RV computer screen saver program which has > password protection capability. I would like to install one on my work > computer but by policy it must has password protection capability to > unlock the keyboard and return back to my active windows session. I > would much prefer looking at pictures of RV's rather than my current > Mystique screen saver. > > Ron Caldwell > RV6A - N655RV Reserved > RLCaldwell(at)chq.byu.edu > (ProSealing Fuel Tanks) Hi ron: I'm using a screen saver that I have placed rv pictures into. It was originally the playboy swimwear screensaver. I tricked the program by scanning 18 rv pictures and calling them the same names as what the original pictures were. Now the screensaver kicks in and scrolls through the rv pictures thinking that they are the original girlly pictures. I'll have to dig into the read me files to see if has password protect. hope this helps, terry empannage and wings done, waiting for fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Tach question
---------- Forwarded Message ---------- >Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero >(due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a >way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric >tach. > >Thanks, >Ed Bundy >ebundy2620(at)aol.com Ed, it's normal for the tach to go to zero when the magneto that's shut off is used to drive the tach . . . > >> >>Ed >>I have the same tach and have had to send it back to UMA twice. There has >>been no charge. The next time it goes back I am going to tell them to keep it. >>Tom Martin >>RV-4 Tom, Before you send it back again, I'd like to get-in-the-loop as it were. I've designed magneto driven tach pick-off circuits and there's a few tricks of the trade that UMA may not be aware of. I'd like to do some bench tests on any UMA tach that isn't working and then call them on your behalf . . . Perhaps we can help them whip the problem for everybody. Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: av8r(at)hic.net
Date: Nov 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Tach question
Ed Bundy wrote.... >I'm finishing taxi testing and I have a question regarding my electronic >tach. It's an UMA, 2.25" and it seems to work fine up to about 2200 rpm. As >you go past that the tach goes crazy and fluctuates between 2300 and 3000. >I have it installed on the right mag, the docs do not mention installing it >on one mag or the other. >Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero >(due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a >way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric >tach. Ed, I have a Grand Rapids Engine monitor on my 6A - the rpm signal comes from the P-leads to the mags. To stabilise the system there needs to be a resistor in seris with the signal (I think 32K ohm was right). The original spec called for a 10K ohm, and this led to some fluctuation when at higher RPM similar to what you are describing. Re the mag check, It sounds like you are reading from the right P-lead, and of course when it is grounded out there will be no signal. I used a 2 position switch, with a wire to each p-lead so that I can select which mag to sense from. Also, this is a added neat safety feature - flip the switch before shutdown and if the rpm goes to 0 on either mag it means you have a ground fault and thus a hot mag. Hope this helps Rob Lee N517RL av8r(at)hic.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Wiza" <joe(at)flnet.com>
Subject: Re: oil canning
Date: Nov 08, 1996
How about the ruder and elevators and is this a pre punch kit. TU ---------- > From: Terry Mortimore <sympatico.ca!terry.mortimore(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: oil canning > Date: Thursday, November 07, 1996 9:21 PM > > Hello fellow builders: > > With all this talk of oil canning, I went out and had another look at my > ailerons. Fortunately there is no oil canning that I can find. I am a > first time builder so this is either dumb luck or devine intervention. > I'll explain how I went about it, hopefully it will help another builder. > > The aileron was built on top of a piece of 5/8" particle board, the skin > stiffeners were placed onto the skin and drilled down through the skin > and into the board. A cleco was then placed into each hole, well into the > particle board and left there until all the stiffeners were drilled. > > This method seems to have worked for me, hope it helps. > > terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: RV Screen Saver
Ron Caldwell wrote: > > Has anyone produced an RV computer screen saver program which has > password protection capability. I would like to install one on my work > computer but by policy it must has password protection capability to > unlock the keyboard and return back to my active windows session. I > would much prefer looking at pictures of RV's rather than my current > Mystique screen saver. > The Icondoit program allows you to use a bitmap as a screen-saver, either full-screen, tiled, or floating. So, use your favorite picture or create a montage of pictures and have fun. PatK - RV-6A - playing with my new computer instead of working the kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com
Date: Nov 08, 1996
Subject: Old Engines??
Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? I see lots of O-320s advertised for $2k-$4k. Usually, they have as much as 4,000+ hours on them. Add an $11k overhaul and you've got a "fresh" engine for as little as $13k. That's quite a savings over the $17.5k for a new one. I can't help but wonder though about the life of a crank, cases cam etc. At some point(??) you have to say this thing is end of life. Am I pursueing a false economy here?? John ( who has to learn a whole hell of a lot more about engines ). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: Tach question
> >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > >>Also, when I do a mag check and select the left mag, the tach goes to zero >>(due, I assume to the fact that I'm grounding out the right mag) is there a >>way to prevent this? If not, I'm not so sure I like the idea of an electric >>tach. >> >>Thanks, >>Ed Bundy >>ebundy2620(at)aol.com > > Ed, it's normal for the tach to go to zero when the magneto that's > shut off is used to drive the tach . . . >> >>> >>>Ed >>>I have the same tach and have had to send it back to UMA twice. There has >>>been no charge. The next time it goes back I am going to tell them to keep it. > >>>Tom Martin >>>RV-4 > > Tom, Before you send it back again, I'd like to get-in-the-loop as it were. > I've designed magneto driven tach pick-off circuits and there's a few > tricks of the trade that UMA may not be aware of. I'd like to do some > bench tests on any UMA tach that isn't working and then call them on > your behalf . . . Perhaps we can help them whip the problem for everybody. > > Regards, > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > //// > (o o) > ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== > | | > | Go ahead, make my day . . . | > | Show me where I'm wrong. | > ================================= > 72770.552(at)compuserve.com > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > Bob, I hope that I don,t have to send it back again, but if I do you will get it first! Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
Date: Nov 08, 1996
Several things on the 'old' engines. 1) There is the 505 SB (or AD?) on the crankshaft. This has to do with corrosion on the inside of the hollow end of the crank (prop end). The crank has a plug on the end and this has to be removed to inspect this. The problem is old sludge (water and oil) build up inside the crank and they may be rusted so bad that the crank is junk. If so, this is about $3,000 or so for a new or OH crank. If the crank was already ground .010 under, you can not grind it again. The flange of the crank will be stamped if it was ground. It may say .003R x .006M or some such thing. This would be rods ground .003 under and mains ground .006 under. You can go .003, .006, .010 under. If the crank was already .010 under, plan on a new crank. (ie the core is not worth much). If it had a prop strike, don't accept the common old wifes tale that the flange is only a little runout. The real damage is internal and what the inertia does to the gears, etc. Don't buy a prop strike engine or plan on replacing the crank and maybe more. 2) If it is a very old engine, it may still have the 7/16 inch exh valves. I OH'd an engine two yrs ago (O320 A2B) that still had the 7/16 exh valves. These need converted to 1/2 valves. 'Most' engines should have 1/2 valves by no but worth checking. Not a big deal if you blan to replace the cyl. anyway. 3) If I was doing a OH on any old engine, I would probably put new Mellinium cylinders on it from Superior (or use Lyc if you like). This is about $1200.00 per cyl but includes all new valves, springs pistons, rings. You have to use your rocker arms (after they are inspected and the tips reground and yellow tagged) and you have to supply the writs pins. I would use new wrist pins also as these have pressed in plugs on the end as the 'floating' plugs tend to make metal in the oil (I think there is a SB on these also). If you put on new cylinders, you can sell the old ones for about 300 to $350 each for cores and let someone else chrome them back and put in new guides/valves, etc. 4) There are probably a number of Service Bullitens that will need to be complied with. Most are not a big deal. On is on the crank gear. The oil pump will need to be replaced with the one piece body and steel gears. 5) Expect to have the cam and lifters reground. If it will not regrind, a new cam is about $500.00 (Use ASI). 6) Find out if it is a 'narrow deck' or 'wide deck' engine and then make sure you can get new cylinders for that type. You must know the engine serial number to be sure. If it has a 'A' at the end, it is a wide deck engine. Example -27A is a wide deck while -27 is a narrow deck. 7) make sure you know what type of motor mount it has, connical or dynafocal. Dynafocal is prefered. 8) You can probably plan on OH the cases. Fretting at the center main is a common problem and they now 'dowl' the center main's to help this. 9) A good engine to OH you self would be a first runout (ie never been OH'd) with 2,000 or so hrs on it. Example is O-0320-E2D out of a C172. I see these come up for around 4 to 5K. Here is an old posting I did on engines: Version 1.0 7/12/95 Summary of Lycoming O-320 and O-360 Engine Identification What follows below is a summary I obtained somewhere and I have enhanced it. Another reference is Van's builder manual had a copy of a AVCO Lycoming Aircraft Engines listing "SSP 279" dated July 1979. This is found in pages 34-35 in my old RV-4 manual from 1986. Don't know if it is still in the builders manual. It lists all the models and describes each model. What is below is a general description of all the codes. Typical engine model is O-320-E2D or AEIO-360-B4A. What do all these numbers mean? General format is: Prefix letters- Displacement - Suffix letters Prefix letters; O = Opposed Cylinders I = Fuel Injected (if no I, then carb model) T = Turbo Supercharged A = Aerobatic, typically comes from factory with a Christen Inverted oil system but also may have heavier crank flange H = Helicopter: L = Left hand rotation Displacement, In Cubic Inches. 235, 290, 320, 360. Suffix letters is in the form: Power Section, Nose Section, Accessories Power Section deals with crankcase type, cylinders, etc. Codes used: A, B, C, D, E (see below) Nose Section defines setup for propeller: 1 & 3 = Controllable Propeller 2 = Fixed Pitch Propeller Accessory Section: A = Rear Mounted Accessories, Bendix mags B = Different mag's D A 'D' on the end (4th or 5th letter of suffex) indicates the Bendix 'Dual mag' in single housing. 6 On 4 cyl, a 6 indicates one sixth order and one eighth order counterweights on crank. Only on 200HP as far as I know, for example IO-360-A1B6D. ? Other letters identify the Mag's, oil sump, carb variations Serial Numbers In addition to the engine model number, you have to use the Serial Number to obtain additional information. Serial numbers end with a 'dash number', such as '-27' which identifies the engine type: -27 is for all O320 A and E engines (ie 150 HP). -39 is for all O-320 B, C and D engines (ie 160 HP) The 'dash number' may be followed by a letter. A 'A' designates a 'Wide Deck' engine and the lack of the 'A' means it is a 'Narrow Deck' engine. This applies to O-320 and O-360 engines. For example, O-320-A2B engines come in both narrow and wide deck models and you must know the serial number to determine what type it is if you are talking to someone on the phone and can't see the engine yourself. Wide Deck engines have a larger diameter bold circle at the cylinder base (thus the name) and the cylinders have a thicker base flange of a larger diameter than the narrow deck cylinders. The high compression narrow deck engines (160 HP O320's and the 180HP O360's) have a 'doubler' or hold down plate atop the cylinder base flange. This reinforces this area where the cylinder bolts to the case. Most internal parts are the same on narrow and wide deck engines but check the parts book for sure when ordering or swapping parts. O-320's ======== The O-320's come in 150 HP (low compression) and 160 HP (high compression) versions. The other main difference is what motor mount style the crankcase is setup for (conical or dynafocal). Conical mount uses the simple pair of 'cone' rubbers at each mount and the bolts are parallel with the crank. The dynafocal mounts use the larger rubber biskets and the bolts are angled to point to the center of mass of the engine and prop. The fixed pitch are Type 1 mount (30 degree) and the constant speed prop engines use the Type 2 (18 degree) as the heavier prop shifts the mass forward. The dynafocal mount was designed to cancel out a lot of the vibration. O-320 A 150 HP, conical mount, low compression. E 150 HP, Dynafocal mount, Type 1 (30degree), low compression Some models derated to 140HP and 2450 RPM. O-320 B 160 HP, conical mount, high compression D 160 HP, Dynafocal mount, high compression O-320 C 150 HP, field conversion of O-320-B to 150 HP low compression O-320-H 160 HP. This is a "unique" engine and different from A, B, C, D engines. Most parts DO NOT interchange with the other engines. This is the famous engine used in Cessna 172's between 1979-1981(??). Numerous AD's and Service Bulletin apply. Not recommended for use on RV 3/4/5 due to motor mount problems on the rear dynafocal ring and the fuel pump is in front and will hit the cowl. 9:1 compression ratio. Example O-320-H1AD, has integral Acc case, front mounted fuel pump, external oil pump, and D4 RN-2021 dual magneto. IO-320 A 150 HP, low compression, 7.0:1 A- Type 2 dynafocal mount. IO-320 B, C, D, F, High Compression 8.5:1 160 HP B- Type 2 (18 degree) Dynafocal mount C- Type 2 Dynafocal mount, setup for turbocharging, piston cooling, long reach plugs, etc. D- Type 1 (30 degree) Dynafocal mount F- Same as C but with Type 1 mount. NOTE: IO-320-B1A not suited for RV 3/4/6 unless oil sump and induction tubes changed. O-360's ======= The O-360's come in both 180 HP and 200 HP models. The 180 HP engines are all 'parallel valve' engines, like the O-235/290/320s and come in both carb and fuel injected models. The 200 HP engines are all fuel injected (IO) and have the 'angle valve' cylinders (supposedly for beather breathing). These engines are wider and heavier and have larger cranks, rods, etc. than the 180 HP versions. This is tricky because the IO-360 by itself is not enough to tell if you have a parallel( 180 HP) or angle valve (200HP) engine. You must look at the suffex to be sure. O-360 A and C are high compression 8.5:1, 180 HP @ 2700 RPM parallel valve. -A has Dynafocal mount -C has Conical mount ( serial number -36) O-360 B and D are low compression 7.2:1 168HP @ 2700 RPM parallel valve. -B has Dnyafocal mount -D has Conical mount ( serial number -36) IO_360 A, C, and D high compression 8.7:1 200 HP @ 2700 RPM Angle Valve with Bendix Fuel Injection. -A Dynafocal mount type 1(30 degree) -C Dynafocal mount Type 1(30 degree), rear air inlet for Fuel Injector. -D Dynafocal mount Type 2(18 degree), (serial number -51) IO-360 B and E high compression 8.5:1, 180 HP @ 2700 RPM parallel valve B type 1 30 degree Dynafocal mount E Type 2, 18 degree Dynafocal mount AIO-360 is Aerobatic. AEIO-360 is AIO360 with Aerobatic kit, Serial Dash -63). Some Dry weights: O-320-A, E 244 lb 150 HP O-320-B, D 255 lb 160 HP O-360-A 265 180 HP IO-360-A, C 293 200 HP AEIO-360-A 299 200 HP aerobatic Another issue is prop bolt diameter. I have not been able to determine any number that indicates the bolt diameter. The O-320's have either 3/8 or 7/16 prop bolts and it varies by engine model. The O-360's have 1/2 inch bolts. The Lycoming article noted at the top of this article indicates the prop bolt diameters. Another reference is an article by Alfred Scott "For-Cylinder Lycomings" published in "Light Plane Maintenance", Dec. 1989, Vol 11, No 12. I think he wrote this for the Falco builders. For more info on Lycomings, contact Lycoming 652 Oliver Street Williamsport, PA 17701 (717) 323-6181 FAX (717) 327-7100 For RV's, Van's sells two engines: O-320-D1A, 160 HP, 7/16 prop bolts, slik mags, carb O-360-A1A, 180 HP, A check list to ensure you get what you want: Case mount; Conical or Dynafocal If Dynafocal, Type 1 or Type 2 Fixed pitch or Adj. pitch Prop setup. Narrow or Wide Deck: Prop Bolt Diam: High or Low compression ration (determines type of Fuel you can burn) Low compression can use auto fuel. Carb or Injector If injected, determine Injector model. Bendix is the most common but some have the very expensive Simmonds FI. If injector, Injector mounting location (bottom, rear, front) Watch out for the -H engine, may be OK for some appliction and if the price is right. With latest mods, may be OK but not recommended for RV's. Watch out for Dual Mag versions. The End. Herman Dierks dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ' > Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? > I see lots of O-320s advertised for $2k-$4k. Usually, they have as much > as 4,000+ hours on them. Add an $11k overhaul and you've got a "fresh" > engine for as little as $13k. That's quite a savings over the $17.5k for > a new one. I can't help but wonder though about the life of a crank, cases > cam etc. At some point(??) you have to say this thing is end of life. > Am I pursueing a false economy here?? > > John ( who has to learn a whole hell of a lot more about engines ). > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: Terry Mortimore <terry.mortimore(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: oil canning
Joe Wiza wrote: > > How about the ruder and elevators and is this a pre punch kit. TU > >Yes I used this method on both the elevators and the rudder. My kit was not the pre-punched versions, sorry can't help you with those. terry, RV-6A, tail and wings done, waiting on fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jagreen(at)mail.terra.net.au (James Green)
Subject: Re: spot corrosion fixable?
Date: Nov 09, 1996
>One advice I was given was to use a soft (brass) brush to work the NEVER USE A BRASS OR ANY OTHER METAL BRUSH TO REMOVE CORROSION except stainless steel but not recommended. >alu-prep into the corroded spots. This seems to work well (unless >entire surfaces are covered with tiny spots, in which case I >scotchbrited with aluprep, sanded, scotchbrited and alodined and hoped >for the best)............. >> On the "trash" piece, I used alumiprep and scotchbright until my arm >> was tired. I never did completely remove the spots. >> >> So... the question at hand... is there anything I can do? SUGGEST USING 3M SCOTCHBRITE DISCS WITH AN AIR GRINDER AND MINI DOTCO type AIR GRINDER TO DO SMALL AREAS. >> Will alumiprep kill the corrosion if the spots are still visible? NO 1. When removing corrosion remove the minimum amount necessary. 2. To check the corrosion the best way is with a dye penetrant, but the next best thing is with a strong torch light reflecting it around to look for any pitting. 3. CORROSION LIMITS - This is another issue which is difficult to answer for it depends on the manufactures engineering tolarences and chances are there may not be any data on this. However as a general rule on the aircraft types I have worked on (Lockheed); 1. Non structual (e.g. Skins) maximum depth to grind is 1/4 (25%) the thickness of the material, but I suggest only to go no more than 10% before consider replacing/repairing it. 2. semi structual areas such as ribbing no more than 10% of the thickness with limits on where you can grind and how close between grindouts. 3. Structual areas such as spars are generally will require a repair. There is also the blend out which is 4 times the depth ( this is the distance from the centre, this can change with structual loads on the area in question. >> If etch the outside skin, should I go ahead and prime it for storage? After removing the corrosion then spray it with inhibitor and allow to soak, remove inhibitor(I can get you a MIL SPEC number) then prime the item for storage. Any further questions please email me an I endevour to find the information requested as this is all off the top of the head and all the publcations are back at my place of work. James Green Williamstown South Australia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: "aviation grade" fuses
>I had one question. I know that you are a big fan of fuses and bus >bars, and that certainly seems to satisfy the KISS principle. >However, are there any aviation grade fuses on the market which will >give you an outward sign that they have blown without removing the >fuse and looking at the filament. . . . There are a number of fuse products that announce open circuits but none that I would find very useful in an airplane. The need for inspectability hinges on doing a proper failure mode effects analysis on your system. Qustions to ask about any possible failure include: (1) in what ways can this device/system fail? (2) how will the pilot know that failure has occured? (3) does loss of this device/system present a scenario for less than comfortable termination of flight? (4) is the device/system pre-flight testable/inspectable? If the system is really necessary for comfortable completion of flight, then by all means, there'd better be some type of backup system for it. If the system is preflight testable, then it needs to be a part of your pre-flight checklist. I mention this because too many airplanes (including ALL the certified iron I fly) don't have all the goodies on the check list that COULD be there . . . The bottom line is that failure to perform intended task is the PRIMARY notification to pilot that something's broke. If in flight, the REASON for the failure is a moot point . . the task is effect a return to earth on comfortable terms; NOT to be doing any sort of analysis or repairs in flight. Work-arounds for needed equipment needs to be in place before you launch. When on the ground, locating cause of failure may and usually does involve a lot of investigations beyond knowing it the fuse that supplies power is blown. The fuseblocks I like are easily probed with a voltmeter or test light and since you know what system has failed, it's no big deal to locate and probe the right fuse. I have a number of client-builders who've taken the time to install little LED trouble-shooting panels to monitor fuse status. Yes, they're kinda neat . . . but . . they add complexity. They offer a trouble shooting aid that is very rarely needed and easily accomplished by other means. And they take dollars and time to design, fabricate and install. I'd rather see you spend extra time doing a really nice looking instrument panel loaded with the things that help you fly the airplane . You're not obligated to carry spares for fuses that cannot be reached and the need to reach fuses should be designed out of the system before you fly it. When fuses pop, it's because something is either poorly designed or broke. You shouln't be attempting a remedy for either of those problems in flight. . . . put the fuses under the panel, out of reach and forget 'em. >Thanks for a great product and for all the continued advice on the >lists. No problem . . and thank you for the kind words and encouragement . . . Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart)
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
walsh(at)cpeedy.enet.dec.com asked: >Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? >I see lots of O-320s advertised for $2k-$4k. There's nothing wrong with an 'old' (or run out engine.) That's exactly the route I went. I'm in the middle of overhauling an IO32-B1A off of a Twin Commanche. Here's some idea of what you can encounter, cost-wise: 1. Try to get some kind of warranty on the crankshaft. New cranks are approaching $4K. I bought my engine 'as is' so I was taking a gamble. I *took* the gamble because the engine was out of a Part 135 airplane with immaculate records and logs. The logs showed regular oil changes and compression checks. 2. Assume that the cylinders are not worth keeping. Once a cylinder has been through a couple of runs, it is a false economy to overhaul it again. It would have cost about $700/cylinder to overhaul mine. Instead I bought new SUperior cyls for $1K each. 3. If it is an 'old' engine, there are going to be some service bulletins on the bottom-end parts that need to be complied with. On mine, in addition to the infamous 'oil pump gear' service bulletin, my oil pump housing was the older 2-part style, and I have to replace it with the newer single-part housing. My total bill for all the bottom-end work (yellow tags on everything) was $2100. Here's what I think I'll end up spending: Engine cost $4500 Bottom end work $2100 4 new cylinders $4000 Overhaul kit $ 600 New sump $ 350 Total: $11,550 What have I left out? Oil cooler (I have one) New mags or overhaul the ones I have New starter New alternator Overhaul fuel injection servo New vacuum pump New fuel pump The bottom line is: 1. I will have saved a few thousand dollars over buying a new engine. 2. I will have learned a whole lot about overhauling a Lycoming. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart barnhart(at)a.crl.com rv-6 sn 23744 Trimming the canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: gil(at)bala.HAC.COM (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re:spot corrosion fixable?
> > I hope I'm being over-paranoid here... I have some spot corrosion on > the exterior of one of my elevator skins. The spots are just small (a > millimeter or two) in size and are not in any specific pattern or area > (they don't follow the grain of the metal). I haven't done anything > yet. > > I had similar spots on another piece and decided to replace that > piece. I don't want to replace the entire elevator. The parts will > sit for another couple of years before I get to the painting stage for > the entire aircraft. > > On the "trash" piece, I used alumiprep and scotchbright until my arm > was tired. I never did completely remove the spots. > > So... the question at hand... is there anything I can do? Will > alumiprep kill the corrosion if the spots are still visible? If I > etch the outside skin, should I go ahead and prime it for storage? > > BTW, the steps I follow for the interior pieces: > Clean (Acetone) > Etch (Alumiprep) > Conversion (alodine) > Epoxy primer (Akzo/Dexter Aerospace) > > thanks for the help, > > Russ Nichols > russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov > RV-6 > N495SW reserved, QB wing and fuse on the way *** sent privately *** Russ, ....try the ScotchBrite on 2 inch disks with a right angle die grinder. Harbor Freight have a rt. angle grinder on sale for $30, and also sell the Scotchbrite. The red disks will remove most stuff, and a follow up with the blue disks will polish the area out nicely. In general, the blue disks should be fine to do the job. While you are buying, get some 2 inch sanding disks (also 3M - fits the same holder as the Scotchbrite) .... coupled with the rt. angle die grinder, you will find lots of uses for them (esp. the canopy - sanding is a safe way to remove plexi.). I would guess that the corrosion you have is probably mostly in the thin top Alclad layer of your skins, and should polish out with Scotchbrite -- but use power tools ...:^) When you prime the exterior surfaces, use a MIL-23377 primer. This will be compatible with all later finishes, and will provide corrosion protection through strontium chromate. This is either DP70/DP701, or Sterling 23377 primer - available from marine stores, or DETCO in Newport Beach (714 area code) - DETCO gives a 40% discount to EAA members, so don't get too shocked by their prices! Etch and alodine before priming. Ask DETCO for their aircraft finishing guide. ... congrats. on the QB kit purchase ..... Gil Alexander PS .... are the spots dark?? .... if so it might only be staining from alodine solution that didn't get washed off, and is no big deal, and doesn't have to be removed. Aluminum oxide (aka. corrosion) is white. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Priorities - CHATTER
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: Mike Kukulski <kukulski(at)kewlaid.highfiber.com>
Previously written: >I'm using a screen saver that I have placed rv pictures into. It >was originally the playboy swimwear screensaver. I tricked the program by >scanning 18 rv pictures and calling them the same names as what the >original pictures were. Now the screensaver kicks in and scrolls through >the rv pictures thinking that they are the original girlly pictures. YGBSM!!! I love airplanes as much as anyone, especially RVs, but you got to draw the line somewhere! ...keeping my priorities straight. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen)
Subject: Re: spot corrosion fixable?
You wrote: > >>One advice I was given was to use a soft (brass) brush to work the > >NEVER USE A BRASS OR ANY OTHER METAL BRUSH TO REMOVE CORROSION Why? Finn finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Nov 08, 1996
Subject: New RV-List Usage Guidelines...
Listers, In response to a number of complaints from members about the decreasing "signal-to-noise" ratio on the List, I have adopted the following RV-List Usage Guidelines document penned by the List's own Brian Yablon . Brian emailed this document to me suggesting that it perhaps be used as a guideline for members posting messages to the List. In the document, Brian has driven home some of the most important RV-List etiquette topics. By following these RV-List guidelines, members will increase the day-to-day content quality substantially. The tone of the new guidelines is a bit on the stern side, but with over 600 members on the RV-List it is more important than ever to "keep it short and relevant". I will be posting the new Usage Guidelines document to the RV-List on a monthly basis. While this may bother some people, I feel it is a necessary evil in the overall maintenance of the growing List. In the interest of increasing the signal-to-noise ratio, another option would be to convert the RV-List into a moderated format where one or more people would pre-screen each of the postings and determine whether the message was suitable. I am generally opposed to this technique, however, as it adds an aire of "big-brother" that I personally don't care for. The monthly postings will serve as a reminder to everyone to police *themselves* and continue to contribute the concise, high-quality, BS-free content the RV-List is famous for. Leaving the RV-List unmoderated will also serve to nurture the 'family' atmosphere that I have always found so appealing. Thanks for being a such a great group of people! Matt Dralle RV-List Admin. Matronics RV-4 #1763 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************** *** RV-List Usage Guidelines *** ******************************** RV-LIST POLICY STATEMENT: The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to the construction and flying of Vans' RV-series aircraft. This RV-list is intended for use by RV pilots, builders and enthusiasts. The list's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster comaraderie among builders and pilots; to promote the construction of safe, well-built aircraft; and to support the safe operation thereof. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the RV-list. To these ends, the following guidelines have been established for use of the list: - Please keep all posts related to RVs at some level. By all means, submit information on experimental technologies, alternative power plants, avionics, aeronautics, and the like. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, Cessna 152 wheel pants, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to over 250 other builders. If you have to wonder, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at a ferocious rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the list for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page, FAQ or Yeller Pages first. For instance, posts requesting Van's phone number are just not appropriate. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting entire original posts has the size of the archive can not be overstated! DO NOT DO THIS! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the list. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the list to respond to a post unless you have something relevant to add, that will be of broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the list at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snyde comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jagreen(at)mail.terra.net.au (James Green)
Subject: Re: spot corrosion fixable?
Date: Nov 09, 1996
>You wrote: >> >>>One advice I was given was to use a soft (brass) brush to work the >> >>NEVER USE A BRASS OR ANY OTHER METAL BRUSH TO REMOVE CORROSION > >Why? 1. metal particals are inbedded when using these types brushes, 2. Usually removed more material than necessary, 3. Causes gouging of the material. James Green Williamstown South Australia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Attaching F-639 and F-640 to F-604, RV-6a
-------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: Vangrunsven, 76455,1602 Date: 11/5/96 11:23 AM RE: Attaching F-639 and F-640 to F-604, RV-6a No problem, leave in the rivets and offset the platemuts... use same number 'overall' of platenuts depicted... tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
>Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? >I see lots of O-320s advertised for $2k-$4k. Usually, they have as much >as 4,000+ hours on them. Add an $11k overhaul and you've got a "fresh" >engine for as little as $13k. That's quite a savings over the $17.5k for >a new one. I can't help but wonder though about the life of a crank, cases >cam etc. At some point(??) you have to say this thing is end of life. I purchased an O-320-E2D for around $3K. I had 3200 hours on it, and 1200 hours on a Mattituck (vg shop around these parts) overhaul. It came from a wind damaged Skyhawk. A couple of weeks ago, I went to Winchester Aero Engines, Winchester, VA, to participate in the overhaul of my engine. You can spend as little, or as much as you like. In my case, I really wanted an O-320-E2D, so I opted for the larger front bearing, pre-oilers to the pistons, *new* cylinders, new mags, new carb, and new fuel pump. Cost was $500 plus parts which came to around $8K; so my total engine cost was $11K or so. Rebuild cylinders, my old mags, rebuilt carb, etc., would have knocked a lot off that (I have details if you need info.) So, $11K is high for the overhaul; it can be done for a lot less. Winchester Aero Engines has a reputation for working with homebuilders; several of the RV builders in the Frederick, MD area have used him. Other than being a satisfied customer, I have no relationship with Aero Engines. (Aero Engines: 1-540-678-1661, ask for Tom Schwietz). Mike Pilla Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: Dann_Parks(at)KTEH.pbs.org (Dann Parks)
Subject: Re: Oil canning...
(sorry, I lost the original thread on this) After seeing the discussions on the potential problems of oil canning in the control surfaces, I wonder if some of it isn't caused by the stretching of the surfaces from dimpling (or overdimpling) of the skins. Seems like the stiffeners could be a good place for the use of adhesives or that new "magic" tape I remember reading about in a past thread. The stiffeners don't seem to be high stress structural parts and you could always rebuild them if it didn't work out. Is anyone thinking of trying -- or has done -- something like this? Is perfectly smooth skins enough of an insentive? I'm going to be starting my tails soon and although I'm a big proponent of "built it like the book says", a few devations in the name of progress and new assembly technologies is in the spirit of our work. Dann Parks dann_parks(at)kteh.pbs.org starting RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bennett(at)healey.com.au
Date: Nov 10, 1996
Subject: Re:spot corrosion fixable?
> > > > I hope I'm being over-paranoid here... I have some spot corrosion on > > the exterior of one of my elevator skins. The spots are just small (a > > millimeter or two) in size and are not in any specific pattern or area > > (they don't follow the grain of the metal). I haven't done anything > > yet. > > > (snip) > PS .... are the spots dark?? .... if so it might only be staining from > alodine solution that didn't get washed off, and is no big deal, and > doesn't have to be removed. Aluminum oxide (aka. corrosion) is white. > (snip) About half of my skins, angles and major parts have had spot corrosion. It's black, and it's corrosion. It occurs on Alclad where the surface has been disturbed, and on angles apparently randomly. I use aluminium oxide paper to polish it out, typically 180, 280 and 400 grit. Everything is primed prior to assembly. The problem doesn't return after priming. Some builders here prime all major materials before commencing construction. The primed material then takes a pen easily and is highly scratch resistant. I don't do this as it leaves too many unprimed edges. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 installing elevator controls Judith Bennett Elanora Heights Primary School Sydney Australia http://www.zip.com.au/~elanora ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: dieck(at)apexcomm.net (Robert Dieck)
Subject: RV6a Seat Rib Nutplates ?
I'm ready to install my seat ribs and I see that the F-619 ribs are screwed to the F-604 bulkhead. It appears that nutplates go to the forward side of the bulkhead. How can this be? The spar lays against the forward side of this bulkhead. I don't understand why these ribs are screwed on in the first place. What am I missing here? Thank to all replys!!! Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Re: RV-4 wing kit
try mike at "mprv4(at)earthlink.net" Tell him you saw it on my home page! If this dose not work, check the "Trade-a-plane", always something in there. Jim >Well the good news is I am going to build another RV. Van's received my >deposit today, The bad news is that RV4 wing kits will take 12 to 14 weeks. >This will be past my "January free time slot". >Anyone out there have a RV4 wing kit/and or fuse kit in a box they would >like to sell? Please Email me directly with details. Thank you > >Tom Martin >RV4 200hours, love it so much I am going to start again! > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RV6a Seat Rib Nutplates ?
Robert Dieck wrote: > > I'm ready to install my seat ribs and I see that the F-619 ribs are screwed > to the F-604 bulkhead. It appears that nutplates go to the forward side of > the bulkhead. How can this be? The spar lays against the forward side of > this bulkhead. > I don't understand why these ribs are screwed on in the first place. > What am I missing here? > Thank to all replys!!! > > Robert/Tammie Dieck > Wausau WI USA > dieck(at)apexcomm.net Only the two center ribs are screwed to the 604 bulkhead, this allows you to modify those two ribs so your control linkage assembly can be installed after the ribs are riveted into place (part of the two center ribs are removable. the nutplates for those two ribs lie above and between your wing spar strips and will not interfere with the installation and bolting of the wings to the 604 bulkhead. The remaining ribs are flush riveted from the font side of the 604 bulkhead with 426#3 rivets to allow the wing spars to slide into place. George Orndorffs fuselage video shows this very clearly -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: TCOlson <tcolson@Cedar-Rapids.Net>
Subject: Short Oil Filler Tube
A Local RV Builder working on an RV-6 has an O-360 A1A from an old Mooney with a short aluminum oil filler tube. He would be happy to swap the short tube and stick for a standard length tube and dipstick if someone out there needs the short stick. He is Steve Ciha, Phone number - 319-438-1204. Or you can respond to me at tcolson@cedar-Rapids.net Rgds Tom Olson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: 6A tip up canopy
Has anyone splitted the tip up canopy at the rollover bar location prior to doing any drilling for pop rivets or screws. Seems like separating the two parts of the canopy will allow each to fit the rollover bar and cabin frame bow better, at least it seems that way. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: 6A tip up canopy
>Has anyone splitted the tip up canopy at the rollover bar >location prior to doing any drilling for pop rivets or >screws. Seems like separating the two parts of the canopy >will allow each to fit the rollover bar and cabin frame bow >better, at least it seems that way. >Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net Chet, It seemed that way to me, too. That's the way I did it, Chet. Also, I used an abrasive cut-off disc in a Dremel Moto tool to make the cuts as opposed to the 3" cut off wheel in an air driven die grinder. I felt that I had more control and it makes a finer cut. You could practice on some csrap and see what you think. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 10, 1996
Subject: Re: 6A canopy split-line
<< Has anyone splitted the tip up canopy at the rollover bar location prior to doing any drilling for pop rivets or screws. Seems like separating the two parts of the canopy will allow each to fit the rollover bar and cabin frame bow better, at least it seems that way. -- Chet Razer >> Chet- I did it that way on my slider because I did the vertically enhanced occupant modification (VEOM) that requires a wedge be cut out of each side of the canopy. To understand better the reason for this: The roll bar (front) is raised up approximately 5/16" and the rear must remain normal ergo the pie shaped portion must come out to allow the rear to drop properly. I did however have the front roll over pilot holes drilled and the canopy clecoed into place in order to mark for cutting. Then I trigged the drop angle and cut the wedges. If you need more info E-mail direct. Regards, Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: scicom(at)shentel.net (Stephen J Beaver)
Subject: Re: RV4 Elevator
A good friend had his RV4 elevator crushed when his a/c was backed into a hangar beam. Since the elevator is often used as a starter kit, I thought there might be quite a few completed elevators arround that might be available for sale. I think the left one is the one he needs. If you know of such, please e-mail me at scicom(at)globalcom.net Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Davis" <alcyn(at)starwell.com>
Subject: RV6/A seat rib
Date: Nov 10, 1996
Only one seat rib F-619 needs to be modified/cut. Al Davis RV-6 (seats & control sticks in place) Jacksonville, FL alcyn(at)starwell.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Canopy Fitting
Bob Skinner, I fit my canopy as best I could using Vans instructions but followed yours and Jim Cones lead (Jim mentioned splitting the canopy prior to drilling in his last newsletter) and cut my canopy prior to drilling for rivets and screws. Preliminary results show each section of canopy now fit better than they did as one piece. George Orndorff was right when he stated in his video that he hadn't met anyone yet who enjoyed cutting and fitting a canopy. It's been a tedious past week and as far as I'm concerned building a canopy is a right of passage for RVers, even more so than Proseal. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: 6/6A Fuselage Jig for Sale
I have a wood fuselage jig which can be completely disassembled for sale. Price: $45.00 + 12 pac of Natural Light. Available now and it's true as an arrow. 618-443-4276 Sparta, IL (SAR) -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: RV6a Seat Rib Nutplates ?
>I'm ready to install my seat ribs and I see that the F-619 ribs are screwed >to the F-604 bulkhead. It appears that nutplates go to the forward side of >the bulkhead. How can this be? The spar lays against the forward side of >this bulkhead. >I don't understand why these ribs are screwed on in the first place. >What am I missing here? >Thank to all replys!!! > The spar at this point has no posterior web so there is plenty of room for the nutplates. The point of the nutplates is to make the forward portion of these ribs removable. This allows removal of the F610 (? number) weldmet which is the centrepiece of the elevator/aileron control system. This also allows easier access to the wing spar bolt holes for final assembly. Leo Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: kevin lane <kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: tilt-up canopy installation
Having just completed the canopy fitting I learned: 1. I attempted to fit both pieces as one with the idea that the joint would fit better rather than fitting two separate pieces. I attached the front to the canopy deck with small tabs and then proceeded to drill the roll bar and frame bar, starting top center and working down the sides. My canopy was 51" wide when I picked it up at Van's so those plastic straps were bound in several places to help approach final positions. The forward section clecoed down well and fit nicely. (this is a warning sign, right?) 2. the cargo window section hag a bulge which had not existed until things were clecoed tightly. Trimming the skin helped a bit, but then created a high spot when smoothing out the curve. 3. I cut the canopy in two, the bulge popped in nicely but the joint now actually overlapped .125. I drilled the rear skin and pulled the canopy up in the one low section which in turn pulled the joint back open some. Two clecoes had been removed to allow this movement. 4. My canopy does not sit entirely flush to the roll bar. The aft side fits tightly but the forward rides low, consequentially the tilt-up section dropped a bit after cutting. I am currently attempting to use marine-tex to shim/mold it back up into position. I shimmed my roll bar a bit to gain any bit of add. headroom and perhaps this caused some misalignment. 5. My side rails were welded poorly, all of them in stock were. I would consider not riveting the moveable roll bar to the side rails until the canopy is in place. That way you can push it up to where it fits rather than guessing where exactly in free space the canopy goes. How the squared-sided roll bar fits a tapered fuselage still has me wondering. 6. almost forgot, but its just common RV-sense, DON"T CUT ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY BEFORE IT IS NECESSARY! It's amazing even at this stage how quickly an extra inch and a half salvage can dissappear. 7. Like Frank said in his directions, "sure looks like fun". ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com>
Subject: Re: RV6a Seat Rib Nutplates ?
>I'm ready to install my seat ribs and I see that the F-619 ribs are screwed >to the F-604 bulkhead. It appears that nutplates go to the forward side of >the bulkhead. How can this be? The spar lays against the forward side of >this bulkhead. The spar's taper strips lay against the bulkhead, not the web. The nutplates are located between the taper strips. ! !XXX|XXX !# | ! | ! | !# | !XXX|XXX ! represent the bulkhead X represent the spar's taper strips | represent the spar's web # represent the nutplates Obviously, this drawing is a VERY rough approximation, but you should get the idea. In this area, it is a good idea to triple check all measurements to prevent a nutplate from being installed where a taper strip will be located. >I don't understand why these ribs are screwed on in the first place. The forward section of these ribs are made removable to allow for the spar's splice plate to be installed during final assembly. Check the drawings and you will find the diagonal cut and other modifications that need to be done to these two center seat ribs. Hope this helps Scott Gesele N506RV (trying to finish by Spring) scottg(at)villagenet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: caummisa(at)arn.net (Richard Caummisar)
Subject: Re: RV Screen Saver
If you download the NET_Toob software from http://tvnet.com/duplexx/netoob.html it will play AVI and MPeg movies and has a built in screensaver function that has password capability. Then you can download movies from the Matronics page at http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/movies.htm and have a password protected screensaver that has an RV landing over and over. >Ron Caldwell wrote: >> >> Has anyone produced an RV computer screen saver program which has >> password protection capability. I would like to install one on my work >> computer but by policy it must has password protection capability to >> unlock the keyboard and return back to my active windows session. I >> would much prefer looking at pictures of RV's rather than my current >> Mystique screen saver. >> >> Ron Caldwell >> RV6A - N655RV Reserved >> RLCaldwell(at)chq.byu.edu >> (ProSealing Fuel Tanks)Ron, >Afterdark has/had a pretty good password protected screen saver to which >you could add your own bitmaps. I've got several rv bitmaps of aircraft >and of cockpit shots if you need copies. >Ed Cole RV6A Wings >emcole(at)concentric.net > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1996
From: Dean Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
> Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? > John ( who has to learn a whole hell of a lot more about engines ). John, as an A&P mechanic with several years experience working on and changing engines in light airplanes, let me say the following: The comments to your inquiry from other listers which I've read so far are good ones and are very informational. I own two old engines, one in my 1946 Cessna 140 which is the original engine with 2600hrs total which I fly behind regularly. The other is an O-320 from the 1950's that's going (back) in the -4. An engine overhaul is only as good as the firm/individual who does the work. Manufacturers spell out which parts MUST be replaced to constitute an overhaul. Reputable shops do follow these. The cylinder assemblies, in my opinion are the most critical. I must admit I don't trust rebuilt cylinders like I do new ones. There is no requirement for logging total time on a given cylinder -so you may not know quite what you getting with a yellow tag unit. (although I have bought them before) Most of the other parts which have a fatigue life of any sort -or certainly a wear life -are replaced. It's rare (never happens) to hear of a crankshaft -properly maintained and inspected failing in any way other than a prop strike, etc. Crankcases have extremely long lives. Properly overhauled 'old' engines have just as good a reliability record as far as I am aware as new ones. The best way to go is with a fairly low total time engine (I dunno, say <3000 hrs) with new cylinder assemblies (the Milleniums from Superior or factory ones -both are good). Here you basically have a new engine. For a whole lot less. Visually you certainly won't be able to tell the difference. It should even smell new. If it doesn't send it back. The best overhaul facility I know of, AND HAVE DEALT WITH is G&N in Griffith, IN. They have a wonderful reputation. There are many good shops out there however. And some bad ones. I would recommend against overhauls by individuals (A&P's) unless you know enough about engines to overhaul one yourself -because somebody needs to check this guy's work -and you're the somebody. I have noticed during conversations with (newer)homebuilders and particularly since being on this list an aversion to anything other than new engines. This shows a lack of experience with aviation (to be expected). This stuff isn't in the same ballpark with automotive stuff. Steel parts are inspected for cracks with Magniflux machines. Non-ferrous ones are flourescent dye penetrant inspected. Some are inspected with eddy-current testers, etc. I have no idea if this stuff is done with auto engine overhauls. I do know it's not required. Get warranties on everything you can. Personally, I make no money overhauling engines. The only ones I do are for myself. I have nothing to gain either way. If someone were to offer me an overhauled engine or a new one at the same price, sure I'd probably take the new one. That hasn't happened yet. And the new one may stick a valve at 50 hours, or have 'bad' parts from the factory (which Lycoming will send you a nice letter telling you about -even if you have one of their engines from the 1950's to which it doesn't apply) And the overhauled one may have been put together by someone who blueprinted, balanced and ported the thing and who knew as much or more about engine building as the guys at the factory -and it might perform flawlessly. So there you have it. For whatever it may be worth. Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 10, 1996
Subject: Re: Sliding canopy question
The October issue of Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter was 12 pages long and most of it was didicated to fitting and installing the sliding canopy. I devised an easier way to install the canopy without help, making it a one man job. There were several pictures and a description of an easy way to install the side skirts off of the plane that will have them fit perfectly. I have extra copies printed. All of the 1996 back issues, including the canopy issue are available for $5.00. If you want them, E-mail me your address and they can pass your check in the snail mail. Satisfaction guaranteed. Jim Cone, Editor Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter 422 Savannah Ridge Drive St. Charles, MO 63303 (314) 928-8703 jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Davi Howard <snoopyar(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
Dean Spencer wrote: > > > Does anyone have any feel for the implications of buying an "old" engine? > > > John ( who has to learn a whole hell of a lot more about engines ). > > John, as an A&P mechanic with several years experience working on and > changing engines in light airplanes, let me say the following: > > The comments to your inquiry from other listers which I've read so far > are good ones and are very informational. > > I own two old engines, one in my 1946 Cessna 140 which is the original > engine with 2600hrs total which I fly behind regularly. The other is an > O-320 from the 1950's that's going (back) in the -4. > > An engine overhaul is only as good as the firm/individual who does the > work. > > Manufacturers spell out which parts MUST be replaced to constitute an > overhaul. Reputable shops do follow these. > > The cylinder assemblies, in my opinion are the most critical. I must > admit I don't trust rebuilt cylinders like I do new ones. There is no > requirement for logging total time on a given cylinder -so you may not > know quite what you getting with a yellow tag unit. (although I have > bought them before) > > Most of the other parts which have a fatigue life of any sort -or > certainly a wear life -are replaced. > > It's rare (never happens) to hear of a crankshaft -properly maintained > and inspected failing in any way other than a prop strike, etc. > > Crankcases have extremely long lives. > > Properly overhauled 'old' engines have just as good a reliability record > as far as I am aware as new ones. > > The best way to go is with a fairly low total time engine (I dunno, say > <3000 hrs) with new cylinder assemblies (the Milleniums from Superior > or factory ones -both are good). Here you basically have a new engine. > For a whole lot less. Visually you certainly won't be able to tell the > difference. It should even smell new. If it doesn't send it back. > > The best overhaul facility I know of, AND HAVE DEALT WITH is G&N in > Griffith, IN. They have a wonderful reputation. There are many good > shops out there however. And some bad ones. > > I would recommend against overhauls by individuals (A&P's) unless you > know enough about engines to overhaul one yourself -because somebody > needs to check this guy's work -and you're the somebody. > > I have noticed during conversations with (newer)homebuilders and > particularly since being on this list an aversion to anything other than > new engines. This shows a lack of experience with aviation (to be > expected). This stuff isn't in the same ballpark with automotive stuff. > Steel parts are inspected for cracks with Magniflux machines. > Non-ferrous ones are flourescent dye penetrant inspected. Some are > inspected with eddy-current testers, etc. I have no idea if this stuff > is done with auto engine overhauls. I do know it's not required. > > Get warranties on everything you can. > > Personally, I make no money overhauling engines. The only ones I do are > for myself. I have nothing to gain either way. If someone were to offer > me an overhauled engine or a new one at the same price, sure I'd > probably take the new one. That hasn't happened yet. And the new one may > stick a valve at 50 hours, or have 'bad' parts from the factory (which > Lycoming will send you a nice letter telling you about -even if you have > one of their engines from the 1950's to which it doesn't apply) And the > overhauled one may have been put together by someone who blueprinted, > balanced and ported the thing and who knew as much or more about engine > building as the guys at the factory -and it might perform flawlessly. > > So there you have it. For whatever it may be worth. > > Scott > N4ZW I don't know about John, but I sure got an ear full from that reply, Thanks Scott, Keep it up! This is the stuff I joined this list for. Davi ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
overhauled one may have been put together by someone who blueprinted, >balanced and ported the thing and who knew as much or more about engine >Scott >N4ZW Scott, I think like you do about this. One question. I've heard and seen this 'blueprint' thing and don't know what it means. I think I do, but would appreciate the exact meaning. Balanced and ported I know of from working on auto engines. Thanks. John D John Darby RV6 N61764 flying johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
Well, the subject says it all. I was drilling my RV-4 canopy to the small bow when the phone rang and it startled me whereupon I heard a "crack"; a really sickening sound. It is funny how you can really get into the work and outside distractions usually don't intrude, but ... What I have is a a small crack, about 1 1/4 inches starting from the edge. I drilled a 1/8 inch hole at the end to stop the crack from spreading any farther. Now, do any of the group experts have a suggestion on how to "invisibly repair" this mess? I know that there are some great epoxy glues that the auto windshield (glass) chaps use, but would they work for plexiglass? Thanks, in advance. Mike Pilla RV-4, #2866, putting side skirts on canopy, ready to drill gear legs (older kit) Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com>
Subject: Re: 6A tip up canopy
>Has anyone splitted the tip up canopy at the rollover bar >location prior to doing any drilling for pop rivets or >screws. Seems like separating the two parts of the canopy >will allow each to fit the rollover bar and cabin frame bow >better, at least it seems that way. >-- >Chet Razer >crazer(at)egyptian.net > > > That's how I did mine. I had a slight alignment problem that was traced to the turtle deck skin pushing in too much on one side of the canopy. This resulted in the front of the canopy being pushed out of alignment. When the canopy was cut, prior to drilling, all the problems disappeared. Scott Gesele N506RV scottg(at)villagenet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com
Date: Nov 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Old Engines??
Thanks for all of the engine info. They are all keepers... Regarding blueprinting, it is simply the practice of selecting parts that closely match the nominal dimension. For example, connecting rods might have a dimension from the piston end to crank end of say 5.000 +/- .030 (I'm making these numbers up). In a "production" engine the rod lengths could be as much as sixty thousands different from one rod to the next. A blueprinted engine would have rods that are all exactly or very close to 5.000. Editorial comment follows: In the "olden days" it was common to design products with the sloppiest tolerances that were ( well tolerable ). This allowed really sloppy crappy manufacturing processes to make "good" parts. Blueprinting was significant in that the sloppy tolerances might make an engine run rough or use a lot of oil etc. etc.. "Nowadays", design tolerances are much tigher as are manufacturing tolerances. I suspect there is not much room to "blueprint" a modern car engine in that the more modern practice essentially does this at the factory. John ( ex Manufacturing Engineer ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com>
Subject: Re: RV4 Elevator
> > A good friend had his RV4 elevator crushed when his a/c was backed into a >hangar beam. > >Since the elevator is often used as a starter kit, I thought there might be >quite a few completed elevators arround that might be available for sale. I >think the left one is the one he needs. > >If you know of such, please e-mail me at scicom(at)globalcom.net > >Steve > > > I assume that his tail kit was not prepunched. Without building your own, wouldn't you run into problems with getting the thing to fit properly? The rod end bearings are drilled in assembly with the hinge mounts. Any slight variations in construction and another elevator wouldn't fit. If he finished an RV-4, he should be able to pound out a new elevator in a long weekend. Scott Gesele N506RV scottg(at)villagenet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Short Oil Filler Tube (fwd)
Date: Nov 11, 1996
Just a word of advice on swapping oil filler tubes. Not all filler tubes are created equal! There are several variants with respect to the types of threads used on the dip stick. I bought a short AL tube and my dip stick (from an O320 E2D) would not thread into it. If you swap tubes, also swap the dipsticks. Also, I don't know if the hole in the case is the same from O320 vs O360. I would hope it would be the same size but I don't know. Herman dierks(at)austin.ibm.com > From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Sun Nov 10 01:03:00 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Message-Id: <32857016.37CA@Cedar-Rapids.Net> > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:03:02 -0600 > From: TCOlson <Cedar-Rapids.Net!tcolson(at)matronics.com> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Short Oil Filler Tube > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > A Local RV Builder working on an RV-6 has an O-360 A1A from an old > Mooney with a short aluminum oil filler tube. He would be happy to swap > the short tube and stick for a standard length tube and dipstick if > someone out there needs the short stick. > > He is Steve Ciha, Phone number - 319-438-1204. Or you can respond to me > at tcolson@cedar-Rapids.net > > Rgds > Tom Olson > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PFPA(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 11, 1996
Subject: Re: 6A tip up canopy
>>Has anyone splitted the tip up canopy at the rollover bar >>location prior to doing any drilling for pop rivets or >>screws. Seems like separating the two parts of the canopy >>will allow each to fit the rollover bar and cabin frame bow >>better, at least it seems that way. If you want the canopy to flow smoothly over the roll bar without having an abrupt change in angle, you need to fit it while it is still in one piece. I was tempted to cut mine too because in the beginning, the center sat about 1/2 inch over the bar. Cutting it would have allowed both halves to "collapse" onto the roll bar. It would have worked, but it also would have looked bad. And, the 1/2" I gained at the top would have probably been made up at the bottom where the sides would have separated. I just kept marking and cutting the front where it contacted the skin until it finally came down and sat in place on the roll bar. Yeah, it was more work, but I think the results were worth it. Andy Gold ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>What I have is a a small crack, about 1 1/4 inches starting from the edge. >I drilled a 1/8 inch hole at the end to stop the crack from spreading any >farther. > >Mike Pilla RV-4, pilla(at)exit109.com Mike, I read somewhere about disolving some filings of plexy in acetone and introducing the mixture into the crack through a very small tube. A plastic shop should have this little bottle with tube. Evidently, the solution kind of "wicks" into the crack and welds it shut. The crack repair can be polished out with micro mesh. You might check the archive in the last two years for more. Also, I've never tried this. I'd recommend that you try it on practice material. Speaking of practice material. I kept the cut-off portion of the canopy for drilling and countersinking practice, etc. It amazed me how durable this scrap piece was. I kicked, dropped and slid it across the floor and it never broke. Then, you just look at the canopy funny (or the phone rings) and there's a crack. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Old Engines?? (fwd)
Date: Nov 11, 1996
To 'blueprint' an engine is to make sure everything is machined and the tolerances are to blueprint specs. This includes things like line-boring the main journals in the case to ensure it is truely a straight line and it is alligned with the case properly. This is done after the case halfs are lapped. Checking the deck height, which may require rumoving all the hold down studs and machining that surface. This goes on an on with respect to the entire engine and its components. If an engine comes from the factory properly built, this should not be needed, but there can be a lot of variance in some of the parts. Herman > From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Mon Nov 11 07:03:50 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961111121429.006a88a8@our-town.com> > X-Sender: johnd@our-town.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:14:29 -0600 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > From: John Darby <our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Old Engines?? > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > overhauled one may have been put together by someone who blueprinted, > >balanced and ported the thing and who knew as much or more about engine > > >Scott > >N4ZW > > Scott, I think like you do about this. One question. I've heard and seen > this 'blueprint' thing and don't know what it means. I think I do, but > would appreciate the exact meaning. Balanced and ported I know of from > working on auto engines. Thanks. > John D > John Darby RV6 N61764 flying > johnd@our-town.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com>
Subject: Please help out with the Oil Canning poll...
Hi Folks, On Nov. 5, I posted my "Oil Canning Poll". I received a lot of interest and commentary on this topic, mostly from builders who are, as we speak, battling oil canning in the trenches. Only six flying RVs responded. I'd hate summarize the results with such a small sample of the many flying RVs that I know are plugged into this list, so I'm asking for your help again: 1) If you have a flying RV, can you demonstrate oil canning in the control surfaces when the plane is parked on the ramp (e.g. push in here, and it pops out there)? 2) If so, does this oil canning affect you in flight at all (funny pitching moments, oscillations, stick pulsations, etc.)? Thanks to those who've already responded. Please email me directly at brian(at)lanart.com. We'll close the poll on Thursday, and I'll post a summary of the results on Friday. Thanks, -Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com Framingham, MA RV6A #24751 Trim tab looking pretty good! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>Well, the subject says it all. I was drilling my RV-4 canopy to the small >bow when the phone rang and it startled me whereupon I heard a "crack" > >What I have is a a small crack, about 1 1/4 inches starting from the edge. >I drilled a 1/8 inch hole at the end to stop the crack from spreading any >farther. > >Now, do any of the group experts have a suggestion on how to "invisibly >repair" this mess? I know there are many more skilled workers in plexiglass on the list but to start the discussion I'll mention that I've heard that you can dissolve small chips of plexiglass in acetone. Using a hypodermic (didn't mention gauge of needle, ask your local 'user' for advice) let the solution 'wick' into the crack. The acetone (or maybe it was MEK) will evaporate leaving a 'glue' in the crack. I've probably got it all wrong but I know I read about this somewhere; here maybe?? John Ammeter ammeterj(at)seanet.com 3233 NE 95th St Seattle WA, 98115 USA RV-6 N16JA First flight August 1990 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Schmidt/UB Networks <Mike_Schmidt(at)UB.com>
Date: Nov 11, 1996
Subject: RV6/A seat rib
>Only one seat rib F-619 needs to be modified/cut. Al Davis RV-6 (seats & control sticks in place) Jacksonville, FL alcyn(at)starwell.com .................................................... You are correct that only one rib needs to be modified but specifically it is the F619L rib. Mike Schmidt RV-6 (fuselage - seat and bagage ribs) DFW area 52F mschmidt(at)ub.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: MiDiBu <midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New RV-List Usage Guidelines...
> > >Listers, > >In response to a number of complaints from members about the decreasing >"signal-to-noise" ratio on the List, a bunch of good stuff snipped... I downloaded the archives, sir, and they are great. Where else would one find priceless gems like this: Start of post---- Date: Wed, 25 Jul 90 14:26:13 PDT From: dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) Subject: Van's New 4-place RV-8! So, how many of you have seen the 3-Ds of Van's new RV-8?? A bit unconventional if you ask me! For those of you that havn't seen the latest RVator, the new 4 place RV, the RV-8, it looks much like a F-82 Twin Mustang! It is basicly two RV-4s connected together in the center with a common wing and a straight thru horz/elevator. It will use engines out of an Apache as well as the feathering CS props and the retracting main gear! Does this seem like quite a deversion from Van's typical, Back-To-Basics design philosophy?? Actually, I had toyed with such an idea myself. Decreasing the drag by one full wing panel, CS props, and retracts could make the RV-8 a real hot ship. End of post---- Anyway, thanks Sir, and B.F.Gibbons. The archive is truly a treasure. Mike Weller RV 80187 (under construction) midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com (preferred) or mike.weller(at)msfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: RV6/A seat rib
>>Only one seat rib F-619 needs to be modified/cut. ....... >You are correct that only one rib needs to be modified but specifically it is >the F619L rib. It may be that only one needs to be modified but I would strongly recommend doing two as it make a whole lot of processes in the hole easier (holistically speaking) Leo Davies leo(at)icn.su.oz.au ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??/blueprinting defined
Definition of Blueprinting To blueprint the engine is to, in essence, re-manufacture it with all dimensions to the nominal values, i.e., 4.500" +- 0.010 could be 4. 490 to 4.510" as it comes from the factory. After bluprinting, it would measure as close to 4.500" as is practical for that shop/machinist/equipment/etc. Unfortunately, if an engine needs to be blueprinted then it most definately was not built to the latest Statistical Process Control techniques (among others). Go pull apart a dozen of the latest Toyota transmissions and I defy you to find a measurable difference. Detroit is almost as good now. Bob F. (Sr. Manufacturing Engineer) 75303.1623(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>Now, do any of the group experts have a suggestion on how to "invisibly >repair" this mess? I know that there are some great epoxy glues that the >auto windshield (glass) chaps use, but would they work for plexiglass? > >Thanks, in advance. > >Mike Pilla Mike, I know the feeling. As I was drilling the last hole in mine, with a special drill bit and almost no pressure--crack. From the bottom edge to the drilled hole! The construction manual or the RVAtors had mentioned acetone etc. I sulked for two days as to buy a new one, but common sense and my cheapness eventually prevailed. I had made glue for model airplanes years ago when you could not buy it. Used acetone and or banana oil with celluloid. It worked back then, so I tried it. Tried acetone on scraps of the canopy. Flat surface to flat. It turned the plastic milky white, but with the least pull on it, it separated, never got gooey like when I made glue. After three or four tries, I decided it would look glued but wouldn't be structural. If not, then even with the stop hole in it, it may continue to split. My solution was to use fiberglass trim and cover it as well as give it some strength. That I did and no further problems in almost three years and 175 hours. Mine was at the rt front where the curve from the front transitions into the side rails. The fiberglass trim over that looked so good, I placed it all the way around the canopy and side panels, including an overlapping bar over the joint at the rear (RV6 tilt up). BTW, that's when I first used some fiberglass that I once described here on the list. Like the paper that Post Office uses on some overnight envelops, you can't tear it, it is about the thickness of bond paper, random direction swirls, extremely light, will not ravel when cut. Every one that has seen it has fallen in love with it, but no one knows what to call it. I get it from an out fit here in town that makes structural fiberglass stuff for industry, Fibergrate. Like so many of the places, if the last on the roll isn't long enough, they throw it away and start a new roll. Excellent for a layer over the tips to metal crack. Wish I known about it before I did mine. Hell, this is too long. If you want some, contact me. No charge. John D John Darby RV6 N61764 flying Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>>What I have is a a small crack, about 1 1/4 inches starting from the edge. >>I drilled a 1/8 inch hole at the end to stop the crack from spreading any >>farther. >> >>Mike Pilla RV-4, pilla(at)exit109.com > >Mike, I read somewhere about disolving some filings of plexy in acetone and >introducing the mixture into the crack through a very small tube. A plastic >shop should have this little bottle with tube. Evidently, the solution kind >of "wicks" into the crack and welds it shut. The crack repair can be >polished out with micro mesh. You might check the archive in the last two >years for more. Also, I've never tried this. I'd recommend that you try it >on practice material. Thanks for the tip, Bob. I'll do that, tomorrow. I followed someone else's tip about going to a glass shop and got some acrylic crack fixer, but the chap wasn't sure about the "stop" hole I drilled. THe disolved plexi in acetone sounds right. I'll practice on some scrap, first. I did the 'flame polish" on scrap and then on my canopy; wow, did it do a great job! I can't get over how smooth the edge became. > Speaking of practice material. I kept the cut-off portion of the canopy >for drilling and countersinking practice, etc. It amazed me how durable >this scrap piece was. I kicked, dropped and slid it across the floor and it >never broke. Then, you just look at the canopy funny (or the phone rings) >and there's a crack. You know, Bob, that happened to me, too. I practiced on scrap and nothing untoward happened. I experimented with unground drill bits, ground drill bits, unibits, cool plexi, warm plexi, steel mandrell rivets, aluminum mandrell rivets, all worked great; on the scrap :-) I must have twisted the drill bit, slightly, when I was starteled by the phone ringing; at least that is the only explanation that I can figure. Again, thanks for the tip. I'll also check out the archives; my reader has problems, from time to time and it is difficult to get access. Mike Pilla Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>BTW, that's when I first used some fiberglass that I once described here on >the list. Like the paper that Post Office uses on some overnight envelops, >you can't tear it, it is about the thickness of bond paper, random direction >swirls, extremely light, will not ravel when cut. Every one that has seen >it has fallen in love with it, but no one knows what to call it. I get it >from an out fit here in town that makes structural fiberglass stuff for >industry, Fibergrate. Like so many of the places, if the last on the roll >isn't long enough, they throw it away and start a new roll. Excellent for a >layer over the tips to metal crack. Wish I known about it before I did mine. >Hell, this is too long. If you want some, contact me. No charge. John, yes, I would like to try some of that stuff. I'll reimburse you for your postage/handling expenses. I have a FedEx account that you could use to ship to me: Mike Pilla ESPI 162 Route 34North, Suite 310 Matawan, NJ 07747 FedEx Account# 1277-0591-7, just check "bill recipient' on the label. Thanks. Mike Pilla Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Old Engines??/blueprinting defined
>Definition of Blueprinting This is kind of off track but there was another functional definition of "blueprinting". In some forms of racing you were obliged to use production engines. Good "blueprinters" could get another few horsepower out of an engine by running it not to the middle of the allowed tolerance but to the top end. eg if an exhaust valve outlet was specified as being 1.5" plus or minus .005 then you took it out to the 1.505 plus whatever you thought the scrutineers would let you get away with. Really exotic blueprinting involved such things as recasting inlet manifolds that measured the same on the outside but had different internals and from lighter alloys..... this had a broad overlap with cheating depending on your point of view. Pretty much irrelevant for most G.A. purposes but I wouldn't be suprised if the Nemesis pit crew could give you a learned discourse on such issues. Leo Davies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
Grind up some scrap Plexiglas with a clean file. Disolve the powdered Plexiglas in some acetone. This will take some time. Go to a hobby store and get a plastic bottle that has a spout like a hypodermic needle. Put the disolved Plexiglas mixture in the bottle. Starting at the stop drill hole, flow the mixture along the crack, being careful not to use too much and over-fill the crack. The acetone will carry the disolved Plexiglas into the crack and soften the sides of the crack. When the acetone evaporates it leaves behind the Plexiglas and makes a permanent bond. It may not be totally invisible but it should be close. Use a Micro Mesh Kit to clean up the surfaces if needed. Directions are in the kit. Do not use MEK or any other solvent. Plexiglas is acetone based and this only works with acetone as the solvent. Good luck. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Apology for bandwidth clutter & Thanks for plexi crack help
Folks, I inadvertently replied to the list for two messages that I thought I was replying to in private; one was with info that should have been kept private. At 11:30pm, or thereabouts, my brain turns to fog. At any rate, many thanks for all the helpful tips on fixing the small crack. This is a great group of people. Today will be busy doing the work. Incidentally, I did try the flame treatment on the edges and it worked great. I also used the small portable heater in the cockpit to get the plexi up to "warm to the touch"; also worked great. Thanks, folks. Mike Pilla RV-4, #2866 fixing small crack in canopy, drilling aft portions of canopy skirts, then on to the landing gear. It is starting to look like a real plane :-) Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Good deal on a small torque wrench
For those of you looking at cranking down those angles on your wing spars, you've probably been through the torque wrench game like I just have. FYI, I found a very nice ARMSTRONG 5 to 50 inch-lb wrench at the local hardware store for $170. Being cheap, and having good access to the internet, I looked around for another source for this wrench. I found it at Beerman Precision (out of New Orleans). I just received the wrench yesterday and it only cost me $87 (no shipping and no tax!). The guy at Beerman said it was a promotional offer through ARMSTRONG, but I'll bet if you talked to them they'd extend the offer. It's a clicker style, 1/4" drive rachet, +/- 3% within 20% to 100% of it's range. Stephen Heinlein sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com RV-6/6A (Prosealing first fuel tank) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue
I got this in a composite aircraft construction seminar (wore a disguise) and if it is an early April fool's joke no one in the room laughed. It sounds plausible but I've not tried it out. Composite materials are simply the high tech equivilant of straw mixed with mud to make bricks. The 20th century version is fiber mixed with "glass". Somewhere between those two is a rather creative material made by mixing an equal amount of lint from the clothes dryer with a quantity of blended epoxy. The result, I'm told, is a high strength glue that can be drilled, sanded, painted, etc. and will even withstand moderate flexing. The only caveat is that you should be careful to color coordinate the lint to the a/c upholstery:>). Seriously, if someone wants to try this out on a scrap of aluminum and plexi please publish the results. (I wonder what the result would be if you ground up an old carbon-fiber tennis racket and used the bits?) Bob F. 75303.1623(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Alternative Engines
I'm in the market for an engine for an RV-6. Has anyone any advice/experience relative to two companies: NSI and Suber? They both specialize in converting Subaru engines for KitFox and other similar a/c but are just now moving into the RV's. I've read their blurbs (sounds great, natch) and Van's cautious optimism (less than great performance but the right prop and bit more development should make a great combination), but I'd like to hear from someone with experience dealing with the companies. Thanks Bob F. 75303.1623(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Alternative Engines
Hi Bob F. & all, Bob F. asked about Subaru conversions - this looked neat & competent to me: Art Luther runs Subaru 2.7L @ 7gph with honda civic radiator Experimenter Aug 94. However, from photos here, looks to me like a good arrangement would be custom radiators between the engine and front of cowling. He looks like an honest man, but he lives in Florida. :-) his address: Art Luther, 4930 Hidden Hills Dr, Lakeland Fla 33813 Hal Kempthorne Debonair N6134V RV-6AQ - wife has accepted the idea! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: Re: Alternative Engines
Robert Fritz wrote: > > I'm in the market for an engine for an RV-6. > > Has anyone any advice/experience relative to two companies: NSI and Suber? They > both specialize in converting Subaru engines for KitFox and other similar a/c > but are just now moving into the RV's. I've read their blurbs (sounds great, > natch) and Van's cautious optimism (less than great performance but the right > prop and bit more development should make a great combination), but I'd like to > hear from someone with experience dealing with the companies. > > Thanks > > Bob F. > 75303.1623(at)compuserve.com There has been much discussion regarding NSI and others... I too, was interested in NSI but the current package they offer is only 2-3k less than Van's Lycoming. I am now following Belted Air Powers' Vortec engine project. The projected cost, minus prop should be about $8,000 with almost identical performance and much lower maintenance/operating cost. Check the RV archives for more specific info on alternative engine. Rick -- Rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us Rick Osgood 9200 Flying Cloud Dr. Eden Prairie, MN 55347 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>>>What I have is a a small crack, about 1 1/4 inches starting from the edge. >>>I drilled a 1/8 inch hole at the end to stop the crack from spreading any >>>farther. >>> >>>Mike Pilla RV-4, pilla(at)exit109.com Mike, I just thought of something else you might try. You might call United States Plastic Corp. at 419-228-2242 (customer service) and ask them if they have something specifically designed to repair cracks. United States Plastic, 1-800-537-9724, is the outfit that sells the .010" thin UHMW that works so well for the flaps. If it has anything to do with plastic, this outfit has it, I think. There is a lot of stuff in their catalogs that would be of interest to homebuilders or homeowners. All types of tubing, fitings, storage containers, parts bins made out of many differnet types of plastics. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue
Me again, a local plastics company sells "cat hair" - for this I think. hal > I got this in a composite aircraft construction seminar (wore a disguise) > Somewhere between those two is a rather creative material made by mixing an > equal amount of lint from the clothes dryer with a quantity of blended epoxy. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue
>Somewhere between those two is a rather creative material made by mixing an >equal amount of lint from the clothes dryer with a quantity of blended epoxy. >The result, I'm told, is a high strength glue that can be drilled, sanded, >painted, etc. and will even withstand moderate flexing. > >Bob F. Bob, You can indeed make composites out of many materials, the structural properties of the result are complex. The lint (short cellulose fibres) epoxy composite is something of unknown stuctural properties, might be better or worse than naked epoxy. I would save it for filling gaps rather than sticking wings on. Microballoons are probably easier to work. Leo Davies leo(at)icn.su.oz.au ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: kennett(at)direct.ca (robert kennett)
Subject: Re: Apology for bandwidth clutter & Thanks for plexi crack help
>Folks, I inadvertently replied to the list for two messages that I thought >I was replying to in private; one was with info that should have been kept >private. At 11:30pm, or thereabouts, my brain turns to fog. > >At any rate, many thanks for all the helpful tips on fixing the small >crack. This is a great group of people. Today will be busy doing the work. > >Incidentally, I did try the flame treatment on the edges and it worked great. >I also used the small portable heater in the cockpit to get the plexi up to >"warm to the touch"; also worked great. > >Thanks, folks. > >Mike Pilla >RV-4, #2866 fixing small crack in canopy, drilling aft portions of canopy >skirts, then on to the landing gear. It is starting to look like a real >plane :-) >Michael Pilla >pilla(at)exit109.com >v: (908) 566-7604 >f: (908) 566-7936 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: kennett(at)direct.ca (robert kennett)
Subject: Re: Apology for bandwidth clutter & Thanks for plexi crack help
Sorry about that last email; it was an accident. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6/A seat rib
> >Only one seat rib F-619 needs to be modified/cut. > You are correct that only one rib needs to be modified but specifically it > is > the F619L rib. This is correct, it's the way I did it too. BUT, if I had it to do over again I'd cut both ribs. It was a royal pain getting the control column in and I had to do quite a bit of trimming of the circles in the ribs to get the column in. You'll also need to cut some of the ribs out to get the splice plates in. Save yourself some hassle and cut BOTH ribs... Ed Bundy (waiting for FAA inspection!) Boise,ID ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue
Text item: Microballoons are actually very tiny glass bubbles and are typically used with glue to add bulk (i.e. fill area) while keeping weight minimal. They do not have structural value. Flocked Cotton Fiber (often referred to as "flox") is also used with glue to fill however, the fibers are intended to bind the void adding strength to the glue where surfaces do not touch. Both fiiers are availble from Aircraft Spruce. The issues, gluing a Plexiglas crack, does not sound like a candidate for either solution. There is no void in a crack. The surfaces being glued should be in contact and simply needs to be healed in some way. If it were me, I would just try to get some glue (what ever the choice) to seep into the crack. A very thin super glue (available at RC type hobby stores) might do the trick. MikeWilson RV4 Canopy drilled and fitted. Plan to paint inside (frame and all skins) before final assembly. Let us know how your fix works out. ============================================================================== >Somewhere between those two is a rather creative material made by mixing an >equal amount of lint from the clothes dryer with a quantity of blended epoxy. >The result, I'm told, is a high strength glue that can be drilled, sanded, >painted, etc. and will even withstand moderate flexing. > >Bob F. Bob, You can indeed make composites out of many materials, the structural properties of the result are complex. The lint (short cellulose fibres) epoxy composite is something of unknown stuctural properties, might be better or worse than naked epoxy. I would save it for filling gaps rather than sticking wings on. Microballoons are probably easier to work. Leo Davies leo(at)icn.su.oz.au Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Re: RV-List: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue From: Leo Davies <icn.su.OZ.AU!leo(at)matronics.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:13:27 -0700 .jf.intel.com (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06994 for From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Stopping cracks w/ composite glue
<< The issues, gluing a Plexiglas crack, does not sound like a candidate for either solution. There is no void in a crack. The surfaces being glued should be in contact and simply needs to be healed in some way. If it were me, I would just try to get some glue (what ever the choice) to seep into the crack. A very thin super glue (available at RC type hobby stores) might do the trick. >> For those tempted to use the acetone/plexi homebrew glue, I suggest practice and caution. I mixed up a batch of this stuff just after I cracked my canopy on the next to last hole (right, front corner strikes again) and practiced with it on several cracked pcs of scrap. the results were highly irreproducible. One test piece bonded so well it seemed as strong as the parent material, but all the others were the milky-white immediate failures described in an earlier post. My canopy is now securely glued and screwed in with only a #60 stop-drilled hole at the end of this crack and it seems very stable. Neither side juts up at the crack line to indicate shear stress, thankfully. I do not plan to use glue as part of the repair. I have already micro-meshed out some fairly hefty scratches from both sides of my canopy, and it is less fun than Pro-Seal! By the time you reach the finer grits of abrasive, you are sanding large areas of the canopy. Your shoulders will feel it for days afterward. Protect that virgin canopy surface diligently and save yourself major work later on!! Incidentally, producing experimental cracks in scrap plexi was a piece of cake using my original canopy-cracking technique: use a plas-drill with slightly too much pressure with the plexi held down on one side of the bit but not on the other. Beautiful, loud crack every time. The biggest problem was getting a crack to stop only part way through the test piece to allow realistic glue testing... usually ended up making two pieces out of one. Bill Boyd SportAV8R(at)aol.com RV-6A temporarily on main gear for stiffener/fairing installation ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Seat cushion fabrication
This weekend I made my seat cushions for the -6A and learned some things that might be of value to the list... I began with the dimensional sketches in Tony Bingelis' article in Sport Aviation. Wanting temperfoam, I substituted three 1" layers of that wonderful substance for the top 3" of high-density foam in Tony's plans. Then I spent a whole day in the big city tracking down a source for high-density polyfoam. The stuff runs about $55 for a 24"x82"x3" sheet and is quite heavy. Working exactly to Tony's plans, but with my temperfoam substitution, I ended up with a cushion that would not allow the canopy to close without cutting a hole in the top for my head to poke up through. I am 5'-8" tall and average build. Conclusion: either 1) Mr. Bingelis is one short Texan (a Mafia godfather type?) or 2) temperfoam is much less compressible than even high-density polyfoam, or 3) my earlier canopy trimming misadventures cost me some headroom by lowering the overall canopy profile. Further investigation revealed that while both 1 and 3 might be true to some extent, #2 is the culprit. The solution I arrived at was to use a 7-1/2 "piece of the green hi-density temperfoam in the seat pan, covered with full-length pcs of blue (medium) and pink (soft) temperfoam that extend from seat back to main spar carrythrough. The polyfoam is used only in the seat back cushion to give the lumbar curve under the sheet of blue Sunmate which covers it. Hot-melt glue holds it all together while awaiting upholstering. All Temperfoam sheets referred to above are 1" thick, as sized by the outfit in Nebraska that sells it. I did not take their advice to use rigid styrofoam as a foundation for my seat cushions!! Net result: 3" foam was unnecessary. 2" thickness would have sufficed with less waste. Temperfoam alone, even only 2" thick under the leg area, is very comfortable in a static sit-test. Extra booster cushions can be made from the polyfoam as needed for short pax. My wife is built differently from me ;- ) and preferred her lumbar hump to be located higher on the seat back than what felt best for me, so we now have his-n hers custom back cushions. Headroom for me is still marginal ;^( with a headset on I bump the canopy alot when I practice looking for traffic at 8 o'clock. I have the seat back on the second piano hinge and reclined all the way back against the stops to help out. Feels nice but forward vis is only so-so and the cockpit in general feels cramped. What price speed! Should I start an -8 instead?? Hope this helps someone who hasn't begun to practice turkey carving on foam rubber! Bill Boyd SportAV8R(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Gear leg fairings
Now that I have my -6A temporarily on the main gear (actually chocked up with no load on the mains) awaiting the engine mount/engine installation and the fitting of gear leg fairings and wheel pants, a question: Do I want to remove the legs later on to work on the leg fairings or should I bolt her up tight for the last time and work on the fairings with the legs attached? The manual seems to show it both ways. BTW, I'm still vacillating, but leaning toward the fiberglass/wood/foam technique vs the aluminum fairings plus balance wts in the pants. I don't enjoy installing and removing the gear legs- too hard to line up the bolt holes! But if that's what the list wisdom says I need to do, that's what I'll do. Input appreciated. Bill Boyd SportAV8R(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: GLASTARNET: Tools
Fellow RVers, I picked this off the Glastar list today and figured it might be of interest. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com >Stopped by Avery recently to check things out. I have friends in a >nearby hanger. >Met both Bob and Judy, ( the guard cats were sleeping). He has a RV4 >thats coming together slowly and a RV6 (quickbuild) that belongs to >someone else in the shop area. Seems that he has about everything that a >person would need. Gotta work on those prices though. >Nice busy people! > >Went back to the local "friend" and asked where he got his tools from. >He told me about Bill Williams Tool Company in Ft. Worth. I stopped by >today and was blown away. This is where a lot of the used tools from the >govt shops, LTV, Bell and other aerospace companies are resold. I parted >with a pretty good size hunk of change there today. Looked like about a >half acre under roof but will probably be smaller next time. >Cleco's = 1.99/12. ( Size doesn't matter ). Alan Dougherty lead me by >the hand and with my tool list we proceeded to get most of the things >that I needed. They told me that they were in the process of sorting out >a recent purchase of 75,000 ( no mistake) use rivet sets. WHEW! > >I'll provide their location and number for the suppliers list. > >Bill Williams Tool Company >3520 E. Belknap >Ft. Worth, TX 76111 >(817) 838-2601 >Fax 831-7255 > >Mo > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: Mark Reisdorfer <73101.73(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Avery HS jig brackets
Any one who used the Avery brackets for their HS construction and would like to sell them please e-mail me personally. Thx Mark Reisdorfer 73101.73(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rwoodard(at)lawyernet.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Actual Progress!
Well folks... I'm happy to say that I actually made a little forward progress on my -8 tail kit this evening. First, a _huge_ thanks to Fred Hollendorfer a lurker on this list and a future rv-8 builder. Fred drove an hour each direction just to help me buck rivets. He didn't even leave until midnight tonight! I'm excited about having the riveting out of the way, but must admit that I made a little mistake... You know those all-thread rods that go through the tip ribs.... and how they're held on by little 1/4" nuts and washers... Well, I forgot to take one end (yes, it was the first, not the second side) out of the rib before we dutifully riveted the skins on. The question: What's the approved method for extracting the little buggers. I could enlarge the tooling hole and just shake them out... or I could drill a different hole lower on the rib where there is more web surface material... Please tell me I'm not the first one to do this! :-) Thanks in advance for any input! Rod Woodard RV-8 (with a little extra ballast in the left HS) RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net>
Date: Nov 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Actual Progress!
> I'm excited about having the riveting out of the way, but must admit > that I made a little mistake... You know those all-thread rods that go > through the tip ribs.... and how they're held on by little 1/4" nuts and > washers... Well, I forgot to take one end (yes, it was the first, not > the second side) out of the rib before we dutifully riveted the skins > on. > > The question: What's the approved method for extracting the little > buggers. I could enlarge the tooling hole and just shake them out... or > I could drill a different hole lower on the rib where there is more web > surface material... Please tell me I'm not the first one to do this! :-) Rod, Depending on how you attached the threaded rod to the jig, maybe you can take it off the jig and then unscrew the rod from the nut. You didn't use a locknut or mega-inch lbs did you? I had a fear of forgetting, but fortunately didn't. After drilling, I took the nuts off immediately. 1300 RV's flying, 4000 tails under construction and you're worried about being the first to forget? Probably are (not!) Aloha, Russ Werner russ(at)maui.net RV4 L elev and tab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Acrylic Cement
I took a look at ingredients listed for the Acrylic Cement I have left over from some Industrial Model Building Classes I took from a local guy who built models for Industrial Light and Magic (the Star Wars SFX folks). It consists entirely of Methylene Chloride and Ethylene Dichloride. I don't know the proportions as I don't have the MSDS anymore. It was available from Tap Plastics in Silicon Gulch. It made beautiful, completely invisible, solvent bonds in the plex corner joints common in model building construction. A good tight/flush fit of the parts was all that was needed and we applied it with a fine brush to the fitted joint (not to each piece). The high volatility of the solvent blend was such that the liquid wicked into the joint but evaporated so fast from exposed surfaces that you didn't need to be concerned about melting those surfaces. It only melted the plastic in the bonding area gaps because it was able to remain liquid for about 30 seconds in there. After aging, the bonds were very strong. -Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com (fitting 6A X-over exhaust system) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: dieck(at)apexcomm.net (Robert Dieck)
Subject: RV6a main gear
I'm installing the F-6101 gusset for the main landing gear on my 6a. Looking at this big piece of .063 makes me wonder if anyones cut lighting holes in it? All the weight of the aircraft plus my poor arrivals must be carried by this area, but after making lighting holes in .032 to save a 1/10th oz. this piece looks like it was designed for a Mack truck. I know what the guys at Van's are going to say, and I don't blame them. Perhaps one of the engineer/ IA type would comment? What have others done? Bob Robert/Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)apexcomm.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Actual Progress!
>The question: What's the approved method for extracting the little >buggers. I could enlarge the tooling hole and just shake them out... or >I could drill a different hole lower on the rib where there is more web >surface material... Please tell me I'm not the first one to do this! :-) Rod; Certainly not to remove forgotten nuts and washers, but in order to have a viewing port (inspection hole, etc, what every you decide), I cut out an elliptical hole in the outer rib of just one of my horizontal stabilizers. The hole coincidentally is just large enough that a washer and nut for a quarter inch all thread will pass through it. Since a visiter asked me why such an unusual shaped lightening hole, I came up with the 'viewing' purpose. Not that it has anything to do with forgotten nuts, but a small magnet will often effect and move a washer or nut of this size, even through a layer of alum. such as the outer ribs. Get Me? (don't have to shake ). Have fun. John D John Darby RV6 N61764 flying Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Seat cushion fabrication
Bill Boyd wrote This weekend I made my seat cushions for the -6A and learned some things that might be of value to the list... I also learned a couple of things when I built my all temperfoam seats and since: 1. The spray on contact adhesive didn't seem to work too well on temperfoam 2. A one inch thick seat back is sufficient (with temperfoam) 3. In the winter, don't sit down too hard on a cold temperfoam seat....you'll probably break something...it is ROCK HARD!! I can't close the canopy until the seat warms up enough to compress a little with my weight. 4. Temperfoam is VERY comfortable. I used only the blue stuff (good deal on a big sheet) and I normally cant sit still in a regualr chair for more than 10 minutes at a time....however in my contoured (as per Bingelis' drawings) I can sit for ages without feeling fidgety at all. 5. Tony's drawings allow for a flap handle. If you have electric flaps consider widening the seat cushion a bit. Be careful though that you dont restrict access to the mechanical aileron trim if you're considering putting one in. Ken RV6A Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Phone number for Beerman Precision
Sorry, for those of you without access to the internet, here's the info to get in touch with Beerman. Atlanta office: 800 523-3762 (Jim is the guy I actually ordered the wrench from) New Orleans (main) office: 504 486-9391 (Bull is the guy I talked to afterwards, and who shipped and tracked the wrench) Stephen Heinlein sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com (RV-6/6A... torquing down the spar angles this weekend) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: "Michael A. Pilla" <pilla(at)exit109.com>
Subject: Re: Acrylic Cement
>It consists entirely of Methylene Chloride and Ethylene Dichloride. I don't >know the proportions as I don't have the MSDS anymore. It was available from >Tap Plastics in Silicon Gulch. It made beautiful, completely invisible, >solvent bonds in the plex corner joints common in model building >construction. As it turns out, that is the very same stuff that the local auto glass chap had. My wife is a pharmacist so I had her get me a small syringe and I just applied a little to both sides of the crack (after clamping both sides to the Al tube. It just wicked right up and down. Funny thing, though, is that while the crack line itself is invisible (great stuff!), there are now very tiny *radiating* crack lines that got some of the stuff wicked into them. These very tiny radiating lines were not visible until I put the "gunk" on. I then took some scrap and put a little drop in a hole drilled with a regular drill bit (#40), a 1/8 "plas" drill bit, and a Unibit. The results were similar; very tiny lines radiating from the surface (think of the rays of the sun). The plas drill and the Unibit had the smallest "legs" on the tiny stress cracks, the regular drill bit had longer legs. Again, though, not visible to the naked eye (or, at least, this untrained eye), until I wicked some of the stuff around. Thanks, again, for all the suggestions. Looks as if I was able to salvage the canopy. I definitely understand what people mean about how much work the canopy is. Handling that long canopy (RV-4) by myself was uncomfortable after the flange was trimmed off, boy was it floppy. Mike Pilla Michael Pilla pilla(at)exit109.com v: (908) 566-7604 f: (908) 566-7936 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gateway(at)on.infoshare.ca (Gateway)
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Actual Progress!
Sorry. Your message could not be delivered: Message contained no valid addresses. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Avery HS jig brackets
Date: Nov 13, 1996
> Any one who used the Avery brackets for their HS construction and > would like to sell them please e-mail me personally. For all it's worth, I just went to Menards and bought some angle brackets. They worked fine. -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg 14190 47th Ave N. Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Angiulo <mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Fuel tank brackets
Date: Nov 13, 1996
I had the sad but interesting pleasure of looking at an RV6-a which crashed a long time back at RNT. Without getting into the details of the crash (both people survived but with perm. Inj), I want to discuss something my IA friend pointed out as a possible design flaw. I don't want to spark off some controversy but rather see if anyone has a suggestion. The plane had flipped over and then slid down the runway upside down before hitting a concrete post. When it hit the post, it hit square in the middle of the left gas tank. The tank ripped away from the spar. There is an angle bracket on the inboard tank rib at the leading edge which I guess attaches the tank to the fuse (I haven't built this far so I'm not sure what number it is). The bracket is beefy - like a quarter inch thick. What happened was that the bracket didn't break, but rather tore itself away from the inboard rib opening up a nice sized hole for fuel to flow out. It is interesting to note that even though the tank was totally destroyed it would have remained leakless except for this bracket. The bracket just attaches to a rib which is clearly the weak link in that stress chain. My IA was saying it didn't make sense to attach such a strong bracket to the rib because the rib will break free every time making a potentially dangerous fuel leak situation. He was postulating (not designing) alternatives which involve riveting the bracket to a separate plate which is in turn riveted to the rib. The idea being to have something else break free instead of the tank rib itself. Does this make sense to anyone? I was considering taking some photos of the damaged area and sending them to Van to see if there were any suggestions for different construction in the area. Remember of course that this plane is a total wreck so I'm not implying that this area is too weak, just that maybe it could be improved so as to minimize the chances of fuel leaks in the event of a severe crash. Comments? -Mike mikeang(at)microsoft.com Priming left aileron, RV8 #80047 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
A common mod is to add an .063 doubler to the inside of the rib at the inside of the inboard fuel tank nose rib. In fact I believe they are now shipping kits with a pre-cut piece to put there. My plans don't show this part, but I think some of the picture pages in the manual do, and I think it is even discussed in the manual. And newer plans/manuals may well show it. I suppose this would help in the type of situation Mike is talking about, but since the backing plate is still riveted to just the rib, the rib itself could still pull loose if enough stress were put on it. That being said, I don't know if I agree that the tank in the accident wouldn't have leaked if it weren't for this "weak spot". I imagine that with the stresses put on it from hitting a concrete post, it had to give somewhere, and if that location were stronger then it may well have just "given" somewhere else. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: "Calin Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com>
> What happened was that the bracket didn't break, but rather tore itself > away from the inboard rib opening up a nice sized hole for fuel to flow > out. > My IA was saying it didn't make sense to attach such a strong bracket to > the rib because the rib will break free every time making a potentially > dangerous fuel leak situation. He was postulating (not designing) > alternatives which involve riveting the bracket to a separate plate which > is in turn riveted to the rib. The idea being to have something else break > free instead of the tank rib itself. Mike, I'm not an aircraft designer and it would be interesting to hear what Van says, but my guess is that the bracket is appropriate for flight loads. Although the rib may fail under loads resulting from a horizontal impact of the fuel tank during a crash, thereby tearing the tank from the bracket, the loads in flight are horizontal (shear loads on the wing rib/bracket attachment). Cal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ddickson(at)sisna.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Actual Progress!
Welcome to the club!!!!! I made the same mistake on my RV-6 HS. I riveted in a 1" washer and a 1/4" hexnut on both ends and was not able to unscrew the bolts. My HS had "horns" on each end. I drilled a 1/4" inch hole, 1 1/2" down the cord line. I then drilled some smaller dia. holes along the chord line between the original 1/4" hole and the one I just drilled. With some cutting and filing I made the original 1/4" hole a 1 1/2" X 1/4" slot. I then used a magnetized screwdriver, a little jiggling and everything came right out. Good luck!! ------------------------------------- Name: duane dickson E-mail: ddickson(at)sisna.com ------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
There was a mod sometime back to add a doubler between the bracket and the rib to eliminate cracking due to flexing. Here is a way to separate the bracket from the tank rib. It adds weight and requires relocating the tank on the wing. Add a rib at the root and attach it to the spar and the fuselage side. Skin the thing with a strip 1.5 inches wide. Add a second strip nested beneath the first. Attach the tank to this the same way that the outboard end attaches to the wing leading edge. This is just a thought and needs to be properly engineered. Ask Van for advice. Skin Strip Tank Skin ________________ __________________________ _______ ______________ _________ | | | Nested Strip | | | | | | | | | New Rib Tank Rib To improve safety even further investigate an explosion suppressant foil mesh. Fly Safely. David Fried dfried(at)dehavilland.ca ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RV-List: Fuel tank brackets Date: 11/13/96 01:37 PM What happened was that the bracket didn't break, but rather tore itself away from the inboard rib opening up a nice sized hole for fuel to flow out. It is interesting to note that even though the tank was totally destroyed it would have remained leakless except for this bracket. The bracket just attaches to a rib which is clearly the weak link in that stress chain. -Mike mikeang(at)microsoft.com Priming left aileron, RV8 #80047 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: James Bryan <jbr658(at)airmail.net>
Subject: (no subject)
unsubcribe jbr658(at)airmail.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
Date: Nov 13, 1996
> [comments regarding wing tank attachment to fuselage deleted] > > My IA was saying it didn't make sense to attach such a strong bracket to > the rib because the rib will break free every time making a potentially > dangerous fuel leak situation. Obviously, the design is built around proper strength in normal operations, not in this sort of accident. The leading edge of the tank needs to be secured or it could flop around under G forces, twisting the wing. If a guy were truly paranoid about the fuel leak this design can lead to in an accident situation, the trick would not be to weaken the joint. This could lead to severe problems under normal flight (normal *RV* flight, that is, which might involve higher G forces than normal spam-can flight). A better design might be to isolate the rib that the bracket is attched to from the fuel. That is -- another rib inboard from what is currently the inboardmost rib. Obviously, there would be details to work out, but this would be as strong a solution as the existing solution without the same fuel leakage problem. (Which isn't to say the tank can't rupture, but at least wouldn't rupture from the inboardmost rib being damaged.) -J -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037 Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg 14190 47th Ave N. Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
> >swirls, extremely light, will not ravel when cut. Every one that has seen > >it has fallen in love with it, but no one knows what to call it. I get it > John, yes, I would like to try some of that stuff. I'll reimburse you I think the material you're reffering to is called Tyvek. BTW, I missed the thread, what are you using it for? Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Actual Progress!
I have to admit I did the same thing on my 8. I just got in a hurry and wasn't paying attention. I used a long bolt instead of threaded rod and had the head of the bolt inside the stabilizer. I removed the outside nut and pushed the bolt into the stabilizer. On the tip rib near the leading edge the flanges are cut relieved. I drilled out the rivets forward of these cut outs. Probably only four to six rivets. I then carefully bent the tip of the rib out. This allowed enough room to feed the bolt out from inside of the stab. Then simply bent the rib back in place and riveted. I dimpled these holes and still had no problem. Now let me tell you about leaving the bucking bar in the root end of the stab. Bad night. Rick McBride RV6 N523JC RV8 #80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
Lots snipped.. > The plane had flipped over and then slid down the runway upside down before > hitting a concrete post. When it hit the post, it hit square in the middle > of the left gas tank. The tank ripped away from the spar. > > My IA was saying it didn't make sense to attach such a strong bracket to > the rib because the rib will break free every time making a potentially > dangerous fuel leak situation. > > Remember of course that this plane is a total wreck so I'm not implying > that this area is too weak, just that maybe it could be improved so as to > minimize the chances of fuel leaks in the event of a severe crash. Not to take anything away from this obvious tragedy, but there is an old saying that airplanes are designed to fly, not to crash. Obviously an airplane should be as survivable as is realistically possible, but this is quite a reach IMHO. If a fuel tank takes a direct hit and is destroyed, it's usually going to leak. Perhaps if the braket in question had been fortified to keep the rib intact the force would have manifested itself somewhere else on the tank. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the design is very stout from the direction the load is "supposed" to be directed. i.e. up and down. The rib is captive in these directions and is not going anywhere. That bracket supports the weight of the tank and the fuel duing high-G manuevers. I don't see any possible way that the rib could fail under normal induced loads. However, concrete post loads are extremely difficult to calculate. Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Seat cushion fabrication
> 5. Tony's drawings allow for a flap handle. If you have electric flaps > consider widening the seat cushion a bit. Could someone tell me what issue of Sport Aviation this appeared in? Thanks, Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: UMA tach
Thanks to those who responded to my tach question. Apparently, this is a fairly common problem. I talked with Bill Benedict and he said they have had problems like this with Bendix mags but I'm the first one to mention the trouble with Slick. (lucky me) He's going to try to recreate the problem with one of the factory aircraft. I'll post the results when I get them. I was amazed when I called UMA for advice. The tech told me he had never heard of this before and to send it in so they could look at it. When I informed him that I knew of at least two other people that had the same problem (even after UMA had "fixed" it) and could he look up those cases and tell me what those problems were; he just sounded bored and told me that since "this has never happened before" to just send it in. I mentioned that some of the folks here thought it was just a resistance problem and he told me that doing anything like that would void the warranty. I am very unimpressed with UMA, and I may just send the unit back and go with an E.I. instead. Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: Dana Breda <rv6av8r(at)ols.net>
Subject: Re: Advice needed to repair small crack in canopy
>Now, do any of the group experts have a suggestion on how to "invisibly >repair" this mess? I know that there are some great epoxy glues that the >auto windshield (glass) chaps use, but would they work for plexiglass? > > Repair these with Methyl Chloride. It's a clear liquid you can get at plastics supply houses or hobby shops for 2-3 bucks a bottle. At a hobby shop, you might have to look on the label to see what it is (it's sold there as plastic glue). Use a syringe to inject it carefully into the crack. You don't need to stop drill and it's nearly invisible if you're careful to keep it off the surface of the plastic. If you get it on the surface, it will leave a cloudy smear which you can get out with a Micro Mesh kit. We used the stuff in the glazing business for making aquariums, display boxes, etc. Practice on scrap first. :) Dana Breda N138DB -6 since '92 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Fuel tank brackets
<< I had the sad but interesting pleasure of looking at an RV6-a which crashed a long time back at RNT. The plane had flipped over and then slid down the runway upside down before hitting a concrete post. When it hit the post, it hit square in the middle of the left gas tank. The tank ripped away from the spar. There is an angle bracket on the inboard tank rib at the leading edge which attaches the tank to the fuse. The bracket is beefy - like a quarter inch thick. What happened was that the bracket didn't break, but rather tore itself away from the inboard rib opening up a nice sized hole for fuel to flow out. It is interesting to note that even though the tank was totally destroyed it would have remained leakless except for this bracket. >> Mike- I thought the attachment looked over designed in the horizontal plane when I first saw it. It seems to me that the main function of this bracketry is to resist the rotational moment of the root portion of the full fuel tank about the spar (primarily a vertical force acting at that distance). The main spar, rear spar and wing skins perform the drag/antidrag function and the outboard wing D Section supports half of the full fuel tank weight. It looks to me like the bracket can be weakened in the horizontal plane (simply reducing the joining hole edge distances horizontally by grinding away some of the bracket edges at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions) without removing material anywhere else (maintaining full strength in the vertical plane. But, I must stress that this is just an interesting hypothesis. I am not an Aeronautical Engineer and any effort at exploring the validity (or otherwise) of this approach is left to the student. Regards, Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart)
Subject: Re: Canopy Fitting
I too, have been fitting my canopy, but I have to say that it really hasn't been so bad. Jim Cone's instructions helped a lot. My good friend Scott McDaniels (who now works for Van in the prototype shop) has also been very helpful. To be honest, when I first set the plexi up there on the fuselage, I was paralyzed with fear. I could not see how trinning the plexi ANYWHERE was going to make it fit better. Here's the trick that Scott told me: Take the canopy off. Set it on the ground over the canopy frame. Get underneath it all, and move the frame back and forth until you find the spot on both the frame and plexi where the compund curve near the back is (the spot where the center bow and the plexi go from 'convex' to 'concave', if you know what I mean.). By matching the plexi to the frame at that point, you know where the plexi is SUPPOSED to sit. Put them both back on the fuselage and trim the aft edge of the plexi just fwd of the turtledeck skin. That way the aft end of the plexi will sit down on the canopy frame the way it should. Match the canopy and the plexi again, and clamp the two together at the aft center of the canopy frame. Next (VERY IMPORTANT) Pull the sides down to where they should be. Punning the sides down affects the shape of the front. If you trim the front nice and pretty, THEN pull the sides down, you are gonna cry. I've got my canopy trimmed to this point, and like Jim says (and also Tom at Van's), I'm going to split the canopy prior to drilling it to the rollbar and canopy frame. It's going to fit a LOT better if I do. When I'm all done, I plan to write this all up and post the whole process here. I figure that with all the QBs coming online, those guys are going to need all the help they can get. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart barnhart(at)a.crl.com rv-6 sn 23744 Trimming the canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart)
Subject: Re: Alternative Engines
Bob: >Has anyone any advice/experience relative to two companies: NSI and Suber? The fellow in the next office at work was looking at the NSI real hard to put in his Europa. He's prety turned off on the NSI now. According to him, there are reliability problems with the gearbox. He also said that the one-and-only NSI-equipped Europa had an engine failure returning from Sun 'n Fun, and now the NSI people will not return the buyer's phone calls. As for alternatives to a Lycoming, I think the Belted Air Power engine is the only one right now that is showing any promise. As an aside, I bought a used IO-320B1A and am in the middle of overhauling it. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 barnhart(at)a.crl.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: locked out of my airplane
When I finally got my tip-up canopy near completion, I made the discovery that when the lid was fully closed and all the clecos I had been using for handles were replaced with flush rivets, it was *very* hard to open the canopy again without a pry bar, which is not asthetically pleasing. I nearly tore my nails off trying to get the thing open again. Now I don't close the canopy unless some patsy is sitting inside to push it open again. I'm sure there's a fix; what have you fellas come up with? Heard on the home intercom: "Kevin, can you run out to the garage and sit in the plane?- your father wants to close the canopy again... that's a good boy." Bill Boyd SportAV8R(at)aol.com Still waiting to hear whether conventional wisdom says it's better to fair the gear legs on or off the airframe... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: Gear leg fairings
I did mine in place using wood and fiberglass. It is much easier to get things lined up and keep them there. I did the back half first and then the front half. I tapered the fairing to match the plans. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End
It may interest the RV-List to know about a little issue raised recently by my EAA Chapter Tech Counselor. He recently inspected a new RV-4 and expressed to me his surprise at Van's use of studded 1/4" male rod end bearings (Aurora P/N CM-4MS) in the lower positions of the flap push tubes. If you think about it, these rod end bearings have no protection against bearing race failure in one direction (the worst direction). The use of this type of rod end bearing, in lieu of Aurora P/N CM-4M used in the top positions on the same push tubes, needlessly exposes the operator to the dreaded split flap failure mode (which has killed more than a few intrepid fellow aviators). My understanding is that it is not unusual for bearings to fail in this way. Am I wrong to be concerned? I E-mailed Tom@Van's and he had this to say, "you are of course welcome to do anything you need to make your plane and if you want to do something different with the flaps, no problem, however there has never been a rod end bearing failure YET" (emphasis added is mine). It's just not worth it, people, why risk it? I'm going to use the CM-4M bearings with large diameter captivating washers on both sides of them (as in all other rod end bearing applications) and will make some short spacers to restore the desired stand-off distance required. Tom also said things like the great thing about homebuilding is that we can make decisions for ourselves, which is absolutely true but not much of an explanation. Further he said "If you are going to worry about the rod ends, you certainly should worry about the pushrods themselves...if there is a 'weak' point in my personal opinion, it is the chance of buckling the push tube itself...not the rod end bearing failure." I appreciate Tom's candor, but think that something so easy to solve, should be. ......Opinions anyone? Should we be concerned? Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Nov 13, 1996
Subject: Matronics Web Page Update!
Listers, Many of you have mentioned that you were unable to view the various Videos and Bitmaps found on the Matronics Web Pages. There are a number of reasons for this depending on the particular situation ranging from local Internet firewalls to bugs in new versions of web browsers. The problems stemmed from the fact that I had setup these URLs so that they would be downloaded using FTP instead of the normal HTTP protocol. Until recently, my ISP didn't allow access to this data (stored on the FTP server) directly from the HTTP server. They now, however, allow symbolic links from the HTTP area to the FTP area. This has allowed me to convert all of the previous FTP links to HTTP. The FTP storage area is free, but the HTTP area is limited to 25Mb. I think you get the picture... So what, you may be asking? :-) Well, what this means is that if you wern't able to view these files before, more than likely you can now! For example, on the Matronics FuelScan page, there are a number of AVI and Quicktime movies of the unit's operation which give a very good feeling for the general operation of the FuelScan. If you havn't already, check it out! Very cool. As for the RV-List, you should now be able to view all of the various bitmaps as well as the RV videos available. Many have not had a problem downloading these in the past and this update will have no affect for them. If you have had problems in the past viewing these things I encourage you to give it another try. The Matronics URL is: http://www.matronics.com Be sure to let me know (dralle(at)matronics.com, *not the List*) if you have any problems. Thanks! Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 1996
From: kevin lane <kevinlane(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: gas tanks
I was reading about a product that racers use in their fuel tanks, a scotch-brite-like mesh that makes the tank explosion proof. It uses 1% of the volume and costs about $1/gal. It said it could be fitted in anywhere you have a hand-sized hole. Has anyone know/used this? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 1996
From: ab6a(at)juno.com (ALLAN E POMEROY)
Listers, I'm getting close to skinning my horizontal stabilizer. I've read Van's instructions and looked at George Orndorff's method. I've also looked at the method in the book "14 Years of The RV-ator". Has anyone used this method and what kind of results did you have? I was also thinking of a slight? modification to it by predrilling the skeleton so there will be pilot holes, then fitting the skins with the clamps over the outside as Van suggests, to get the proper dimension for the trailing edge. Start from the center of each side of the spar, clamping the skin to the rear spar and work outward. At the end and center of the spar, drill the skin and clecoe each corner to hold the trailing edge dimension as Van warns to keep a close eye on it. Then lift one side of the skin at a time and backdrill through the pilot holes and skin, putting in clecoes as I go. I'm open to ideas and suggestions. If anyone would prefer to, email me directly. In advance, thanks for the time and consideration. Allan Pomeroy AB6A(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: locked out of my airplane
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Bill, What I did, and I'm sure many others have done, is to put a lifting tab on both sides of the canopy near the back edge. This allows one to push upwards with the palm of the hand to open the canopy. I used a piece of 3/3" alum stock about 2" long. Rounding the edges, and hand milling out the lower edge for finger grips, makes them almost a lifting surface (maybe enough lift to compensate for their wieght). Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: >When I finally got my tip-up canopy near completion, I made the discovery >that when the lid was fully closed and all the clecos I had been using for >handles were replaced with flush rivets, it was *very* hard to open the >canopy again without a pry bar, which is not asthetically pleasing. I nearly >tore my nails off trying to get the thing open again. Now I don't close the >canopy unless some patsy is sitting inside to push it open again. I'm sure >there's a fix; what have you fellas come up with? > >Heard on the home intercom: "Kevin, can you run out to the garage and sit in >the plane?- your father wants to close the canopy again... that's a good >boy." > >Bill Boyd >SportAV8R(at)aol.com > > >Still waiting to hear whether conventional wisdom says it's better to fair >the gear legs on or off the airframe... > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: locked out of my airplane
Bill , you can make a small lifting handle out of 3/4 x 3/4 x .063 about 2 inch long and tepered in front and put on both sides near the back of the canopy. This will give you something thingto lift with . if you have any further question please call me at 817-439-3280....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End
One of the inspectors in Ontario will not accept this stud on the flap pushrod bearing, so my aircraft will have capture washers. I fully agree with him. Asymmetric flap deployment can ruin your whole day. I wonder about the pushrods themselves. The material is aluminum tube with threads for the rod end CUT into the material. I thought that we use aircraft bolts because one of their features was rolled threads. Has anyone thought of using a heavier wall tube or different material? David Fried dfried(at)dehavilland.ca Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End Date: 11/14/96 01:38 AM It may interest the RV-List to know about a little issue raised recently by my EAA Chapter Tech Counselor. He recently inspected a new RV-4 and expressed to me his surprise at Van's use of studded 1/4" male rod end bearings (Aurora P/N CM-4MS) in the lower positions of the flap push tubes. If you think about it, these rod end bearings have no protection against bearing race failure in one direction (the worst direction). The use of this type of rod end bearing, in lieu of Aurora P/N CM-4M used in the top positions on the same push tubes, needlessly exposes the operator to the dreaded split flap failure mode (which has killed more than a few intrepid fellow aviators). My understanding is that it is not unusual for bearings to fail in this way. Am I wrong to be concerned? I E-mailed Tom@Van's and he had this to say, "you are of course welcome to do anything you need to make your plane and if you want to do something different with the flaps, no problem, however there has never been a rod end bearing failure YET" (emphasis added is mine). It's just not worth it, people, why risk it? I'm going to use the CM-4M bearings with large diameter captivating washers on both sides of them (as in all other rod end bearing applications) and will make some short spacers to restore the desired stand-off distance required. Tom also said things like the great thing about homebuilding is that we can make decisions for ourselves, which is absolutely true but not much of an explanation. Further he said "If you are going to worry about the rod ends, you certainly should worry about the pushrods themselves...if there is a 'weak' point in my personal opinion, it is the chance of buckling the push tube itself...not the rod end bearing failure." I appreciate Tom's candor, but think that something so easy to solve, should be. ......Opinions anyone? Should we be concerned? Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: locked out of my airplane
When I finally got my tip-up canopy near completion, I made the discovery that when the lid was fully closed and all the clecos I had been using for handles were replaced with flush rivets, it was *very* hard to open the canopy again without a pry bar, which is not asthetically pleasing. I nearly tore my nails off trying to get the thing open again. Now I don't close the canopy unless some patsy is sitting inside to push it open again. I'm sure there's a fix; what have you fellas come up with? A piece of .063 angle about 1inch long attached to the outside rear sides of the canopy works for me. You can shape it so it sorta looks aerodynamic too! Ken RV6A Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End
It may interest the RV-List to know about a little issue raised recently by my EAA Chapter Tech Counselor. He recently inspected a new RV-4 and expressed to me his surprise at Van's use of studded 1/4" male rod end bearings (Aurora P/N CM-4MS) in the lower positions of the flap push tubes. Interesting to note that one inspector (at least) in the Toronto area will NOT accept the studs on the flap rod ends as per Van's drawings. He snags them everytime and requires them to be changed. Strangely enough, he missed mine, so with all the other folks here having to change them, I'm wondering if I should too. Ken RV6A Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: locked out of my airplane
I put two of these angles through slots in the canopy side skin so that the flange is on the inside. The part protruding through was trimmed to 1/4 inches. Just enough to grip and minimal excrescence to keep drag down. David Fried dfried(at)dehavilland.ca ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RV-List: locked out of my airplane Date: 11/14/96 10:09 AM Bill , you can make a small lifting handle out of 3/4 x 3/4 x .063 about 2 inch long and tepered in front and put on both sides near the back of the canopy. This will give you something thingto lift with . if you have any further question please call me at 817-439-3280....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Alternative Engines
Bob F. I am also keeping one eye out at alternatives. Here are my own pesonal "rules". 1.) Ignore anything that the developer's don't put in a plane and fly. 2.) Of the ones that fly, watch out for the "performance is a little low but we need to get the right prop". Yeah right!! Performance is low because the engine isn't making the claimed power. 3. Beware of alternatives discounting performance and bragging about low fuel consumption ( see 2 above ). 4. Beware of success stories from inidividuals. Many people seem to derate auto engines and accept the performance penalty. See Tracy Crook's articles for a well articulated description of this approach. This is perfectly valid but not if you want O-320 performance day in and day out. So far, the "old men" have actually put their engine in an RV AND flown it over 200mph, as well as cruisng it at normal RV speeds. Everett Hatch has also done this with his Rotary conversion. Anybody else? My personal "favorite" is the Zoche Diesel. They were most recently delayed in order to build prototypes on the "production tooling". Now Bill, you're a Mfg. Engineer, what do you think of a company building "production tooling" for a product which has yet to fly a sinle prototype...... Good luck in your search. John Walsh(at)ranger.enet.dec.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Seat cushion fabrication
>> 5. Tony's drawings allow for a flap handle. If you have electric flaps >> consider widening the seat cushion a bit. > >Could someone tell me what issue of Sport Aviation this appeared in? >Thanks, Ed Bundy ebundy2620(at)aol.com Ed, The Aug, 90 issue of SA had an article on RV seats by Tony B. and the Jan 91 SA had an article on Temperfoam. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)krvn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: Re: Movies Are Great!
>-------------- >Hi Matt, > >The movies are really fun! I saw my first one this morning. > >Is it normal for the download to take ten or fifteen minutes? These are >the first movies I have ever seen on the internet so I am not very well >aquainted with the process. I have a Macintosh Performa 6300 with all >the expansion I could get. > >Thanks again for your good work. Well done! > >Sincerely, > >Dave Cooke >dmcooke(at)rand.nidlink.com >-------------- Hi Dave, The download time depends on the speed of your connection to the Internet and the size of the file. The Movies vary in size from about 300k to well over a megabyte. To figure the 'normal' download time use the following formula: ( X <10 bits per byte> ) / = So, for an average file size of about 600k and a 28800 modem: (600000 * 10) / 28000 = 208 seconds or 3.47 minutes. And that assumes your ISP will actually deliver a steady stream of data for the whole time, which is probably unlikely. I'm glad to hear you were finally able to see the Videos! Matt -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End
Date: Nov 14, 1996
I had a local machine shop make my RV4 flap tubes out of stainless steel. The aluminum ones looked two weak to me. However, I have never heard of a problem. I was also told on the RV6 that if you use elect flaps you need to use the stainless tubes as the motor will strip the aluminum ones (this is second hand info). I don't understand what you are using on the end if you don't use the Aurora bearing. What is a 'capture washer'???? Herman dieks(at)austin.ibm.com > > One of the inspectors in Ontario will not accept this stud on the flap > pushrod bearing, so my aircraft will have capture washers. I fully agree > with him. Asymmetric flap deployment can ruin your whole day. > > I wonder about the pushrods themselves. The material is aluminum tube with > threads for the rod end CUT into the material. I thought that we use > aircraft bolts because one of their features was rolled threads. Has anyone > thought of using a heavier wall tube or different material? > > David Fried > dfried(at)dehavilland.ca > > > > > > > Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Re: Lower Flap Push Rod End > Author: rv-list(at)matronics.com at unix.po > Date: 11/14/96 01:38 AM > > > It may interest the RV-List to know about a little issue raised recently by > my EAA Chapter Tech Counselor. He recently inspected a new RV-4 and > expressed to me his surprise at Van's use of studded 1/4" male rod end > bearings (Aurora P/N CM-4MS) in the lower positions of the flap push tubes. > > If you think about it, these rod end bearings have no protection against > bearing race failure in one direction (the worst direction). The use of this > type of rod end bearing, in lieu of Aurora P/N CM-4M used in the top > positions on the same push tubes, needlessly exposes the operator to the > dreaded split flap failure mode (which has killed more than a few intrepid > fellow aviators). My understanding is that it is not unusual for bearings to > fail in this way. Am I wrong to be concerned? > > I E-mailed Tom@Van's and he had this to say, "you are of course welcome to do > anything you need to make your plane and if you want to do something > different with the flaps, no problem, however there has never been a rod end > bearing failure YET" (emphasis added is mine). > > It's just not worth it, people, why risk it? I'm going to use the CM-4M > bearings with large diameter captivating washers on both sides of them (as in > all other rod end bearing applications) and will make some short spacers to > restore the desired stand-off distance required. > > Tom also said things like the great thing about homebuilding is that we can > make decisions for ourselves, which is absolutely true but not much of an > explanation. Further he said "If you are going to worry about the rod ends, > you certainly should worry about the pushrods themselves...if there is a > 'weak' point in my personal opinion, it is the chance of buckling the push > tube itself...not the rod end bearing failure." > > I appreciate Tom's candor, but think that something so easy to solve, should > be. > ......Opinions anyone? Should we be concerned? > > Gary VanRemortel > vanremog(at)aol.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: fegg2251(at)uwwvax.uww.edu
Date: Nov 14, 1996
Subject: hvlp,squeezer
A couple questions. 1) what would be the recommended size and capacity for an hvlp system, and manufacturer? 2) rivet squeezer vs. pneumatic, advantages disadvantages? 3) Vari-prime, any surface prep before application? any paints not compatible to apply over? cleaner for surface before priming? wayne "vulture" f. rv-6 empenage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: gas tanks
Date: Nov 14, 1996
I think this is called 'explo-proof' or some such thing. A word of caution. DO NOT use this if you have a flop tube in your tank (for aerobatics). You will also have to keep it away from the fuel sender float as it must move up and down. The aerobatic folks tried this several yrs ago and the flop tubes in the tank chewed up the foil mesh and it ended up plugging up the fuel lines and fuel filters. They had to cut open the tanks and remove it. Herman dierks(at)austin.ibm.com > I was reading about a product that racers use in their fuel tanks, a > scotch-brite-like mesh that makes the tank explosion proof. It uses 1% > of the volume and costs about $1/gal. It said it could be fitted in > anywhere you have a hand-sized hole. Has anyone know/used this? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: 3m Tape info
Here is the info that I have so far.... The product is labeled as follows: Scotch VHB 4941F

November 02, 1996 - November 14, 1996

RV-Archive.digest.vol-cc