RV-Archive.digest.vol-ci
January 08, 1997 - January 15, 1997
3. Install the battery from the passenger side and remove the control stick
It's really not as bad as I make out, but it is awkward and does take me
about 1/2 hour. As soon as I get up flying I forget about it, but it is
something to think about.
Ken Hoshowski RV6 C-FKEH First flight Sept.8, 93
British Columbia 160 HP C/S Serial # 20332
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daniel Potter <dpotter(at)QNET.COM> |
fitton wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone know how I can contact Dave Anders? I have an IO360-A1A to
> put in my RV-4. I'm currently skinning the fuselage and would like to
> talk to him and perhaps visit Visalia prior to ordering the finish kit
> from Van. Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob Fitton
> fitton(at)vegas.infi.net
try 209-627-3375
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Hitchings" <wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
On Wed 9 Jan 1997 Bill Nash wrote : "I'm no attorney and this definately
isn't legal advice, but:
> This is why many owners of a homebuilt will part out the aircraft,
> even though it's flying ..."
I am an attorney practising in Aviation Law in South Africa. I must say
that, cetainly as far as South African law is concerned, the scheme
described by Bill to limit one's liability is fraught with difficulty. We
have a maxim, which I'm sure applies in the USA, that the law looks not so
much at what people say they are doing, as to what they are in fact doing.
In Bill's example, (if I understand it properly) the idea is to sell a
flying aircraft to the purchaser, but to describe the aircraft as "parts".
The real, as opposed to declared, intention of the parties is to buy and
sell an aircraft. I think that any Court would see through the charade,
and hold that despite what the parties allege, the contract related to an
aircraft, and not merely parts thereof.
Another aspect to bear in mind relates to insurance : will the purchaser
insure "parts" or an iarcraft? And, in the unlikely event of the insurer
undertaking to insure the "parts, and a claim arises, will it not be
tempted to repudiate on the grounds of material misrepresentation - you
said you were insuring "parts"; it now transpires that you were in fact
insuring a flying aircraft; the risk which the insurer took upon itself
differs greatly between "parts" of an aircraft and an aircraft itself.
There are plenty more reasons to keep all above board - but I don't want to
bore the list to distraction.
The general idea of registering the aircraft in the name of a corporation
is OK - just make sure that the corporation in fact becomes owner of the
aircraft, and does not merely have it registered in its name (I'm assuming
that in the USA, as in South Africa, registration does not necessarily
reflect ownership.) But the person who caused the loss in the first place
(forgot about the main spar) would still be liable for that tort.
Still, it is an interesting idea . . .
And don't knock the litigation system - I have a fuselage kit to pay for!
Brian Hitchings
wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
RV6A-Empennage complete; waiting for wing kit to arrive (that's why I've
got time to reply to email)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harold Sutphin <hsutphin(at)magicnet.net> |
| Subject: | Sales/property taxes/use tax |
Has anyone had any experience with what Florida does in regards to
sales, property or use tax for a homebuilt? I mean a homebuilt is only
a pile of aluminum until the FAA inspects it.
My only dealing with them has been on a production airplane - they
nailed me for sales tax from the date of sale, not from date of
registration, plus a 10% penalty per month on the unpaid tax.
Harold
/RV-6A/Wing kit/
________________________________________________________________________________
To Anyone Who Knows;
Could some one explain to me what the 'Apparently-to:' message list is? I
know it has been going on since I've been on the list. And I am aware that
it is desirable to be on some list and not on others. Since my e-mail
address has constantly inched upwards on the 'apparently to' list, I am now
#3, do I explode off of it when my name reaches the top, or do I win the
Texas jackpot? I hope it's the latter, that way I can build another RV and
load up all of the goodies on it.
John Darby RV6 N61764 flying
Stephenville TX
johnd@our-town.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage crate size |
>Finishing kit: Dunno... can someone give me this for completeness.
>
Frank;
I don't know the measurements, but it will easily fit in the back of an 87
Dodge Dakota pickup
John Darby RV6 N61764 flying
Stephenville TX
johnd@our-town.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM |
| Subject: | tax question (pay now? or pay later?) |
I live in NY and am starting to get a little concerned about this
whole tax business. My question is, WHO should I contact to find
out the proper procedure for paying taxes on a homebuilt?
What government agent deserves a phone call from me now?
Also, want to say "THANKS!" for the many responses I received on my
'not-so-basic riveting basics' note from a week or so ago. I'm doing
the following:
- getting Gil's MIL-spec circular, which I'll pore over
- talked to Van's (they think I'm fine)
- will re-check the shop-head dimensions of the flagged rivets
(against the MIL-spec)
- will try and get someone else to re-inspect the spars
So, thank you everyone for your assistance!!!
Stephen Heinlein
sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
Doug:
N4087Q is registered to:
Jeff Mount
25521 (possibly 2552) Earhart Rd
Laguna Hills CA
92653-5067
RV-4
O-360-A1D
Manufactured 1996
David in Dallas
innovate(at)dallas.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
How about having the purchaser sign a wavier stating "this aircraft for
static display only"?
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ray Murphy, Jr." <murphy(at)mail.coos.or.us> |
| Subject: | Re: U pik up kit = tax liability |
OREGON has NO sales tax!!!!! That's one reason why it is still green here
because we citizens have the green and not Gov Kitzhauber.
>
>
> I believe if you pick up your kit at Vans, you will have to pay the sales
>tax on kit at that time. If the kit is delivered to your home outside
> Oregon, you will pay the taxes when you liscense the finished project.
> Either way you pay, but for those trying to stretch out the total cost,
>this may be a consideration.
>
>
>
> IMHO
>
>
>
>
>
> RVator
>
Nancy & Ray Murphy, Jr.
murphy(at)mail.coos.or.us
RV-6A empennage
North Bend, Oregon
541-756-7230
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
People can always sue and aledge anything that they want. BUT, the fact is,
the buyer of an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft knows what he is buying, that is, an
aircraft that does not comply with the FAR's. I know that there have been
suits in the past in this regard but I'm not aware of any judgements.
When you purchase your aircraft insurance for you new bird, make sure that
you insure with a company that provides you with coverage (usually for one
year) after the sale of the aircraft.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC, NJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
aol.com!TESTPYLOT(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
>
> DEAR RV BUILDER
>
>
I won't comment on advertising on the 'list, especially as this type of
item would be of interest to me. However, I would feel uncomfortable
having work of this type done by someone who is so ignorant of the
medium he is using as to not even know that all capitals = bad
netiquette. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
for mistakes. This person may be good at what they do, but the ad does
not give me confidence in their attention to detail.
PatK - RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sburch(at)norfolk.infi.net (stan burchett) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage crate size |
>
>Could someone please post the size of the crate
>used for the fuselage kit. I get to pick mine
>up next week and I need to know if it will fit
>in the back of my Ranger pickup.
>
>P.S. I don't have access to the archive so I
>can't look there to see if it was previously
>posted.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Doug Medema, RV-6A, wings done!
Doug: The -6a fus delivered to me in Jun was made from 2 38"x96" plywood
sections with 4 13.5" plywoods separating them. They used 1x2s for framing
support..so you should add this making them 97x39x14.5" overall.
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DMusgrave(at)swri.edu |
| Subject: | RMI Micromonitor vs. AV-10 |
I purchased a Grand Rapids Technology engine monitoring system at
Oshkosh. Tried to look at all of them while I was there, but was
heavily influenced by Dan Rihn's choice of the GRT unit for his DR-109
2-place acrobatic ship. For a tandem like an RV-4, there is a slave
unit that can be added for the second display.
The GRT unit (which I saw in several RVs) is programmable, monitors RPM,
oil and fuel pressures, fuel flow, CHT (2), EGT (2), OAT, an AUX
channel, and has some really
neat features. You can program limits (high and low) on all of the
parameters, and a big red light flashes when one is out of limits. You
look at the display, and the out-of-limits parameter is flashing.
With the fuel flow option, it has a totalizer function. Once you
establish fuel on board, you just add in the amount each time you add
fuel. It keeps a running total of the amount on board, and will display
time remaining at the current flow rate.
The really good news: the basic unit is under $500, fully assembled, and
with all the sensors and probes, and even with the fuel flow transducer
($295),
mine was under $1000, complete, and I got the larger display.
Greg at GRT said he has about 700 units in the field, and the people who
I talked to that are flying them all rave about the unit. GRT runs ads
in the back of Kitplanes and Sport Aviation (I seem to recall.) Greg
can be reached at GRT757(at)aol.com.
FWIW. Must be one of you out there with this unit flying. Comments?
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McNamara <mcnamara(at)sbt.infi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lining up ribs |
While skinning my RV-8 HS, (yes, that's all the farther I've gotten so
far), I found I was having real trouble lining up the center rib forward
of the front spar (whatever number that is). It seemed to move every
time I put the skin on and cleco it down. After repeated frustrations,
I took a long piece of twine and ran it through the hole in the front
end of the rib, wrapping it around once, and out each end of the skin.
That way, after I got the skin clecoed in place, I could move the rib to
see my centerline by pulling on the strings and be confident that it
wouldn't move. When done, just pull it through from one end. If
anybody else has that problem, I hope that helps.
--Don McNamara
mcnamara(at)sbt.infi.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | justjas(at)mn.frontiercomm.net |
| Subject: | RE: Kit sale liability - Response |
My background is commercial aircraft sales and acquisitions. In this arena we
also are concerned about liability issues. The method normally used in a commercial
transaction to avoid and/or limit liability involves several pieces. First,
the seller (aircraft owner) is normally a corporation or other entity that
exists for the purpose of limiting the shareholders liability. (The comment
about having a corporation own your aircraft is correct for purposes of limiting
personal liability, but comes at a cost. Setting up and administering the
corporation involves $$, probubly somewhere in the range of $400 to $800 per
year.) The most important step in limiting liability, however, is ensuring that
you have an aircraft sales agreement containing the proper terms and conditions.
It is very important first to properly describe the transaction in the
agreement, i.e., "Seller built the aircraft and makes no representations, warranties,
covenants or acknowledgments regarding its co!
ndition, fitness for use, lack of defects or any other thing. Buyer represents,
warrants, acknowledges and agrees that he has inspected the aircraft, its parts,
components and equipment, and had other professionals selected by Buyer inspect
the aircraft, its parts, components and equipment, and Buyer, in consultation
with such professionals, has determined for all purposes that the aircraft,
its parts, components and equipment, is completely and unconditionally accpetable.
Buyer understands and acknowledges the risks associated with purchasing
and operating an experimental and/or homebuilt aircraft and willingly, under
no compulsion whatsoever, accepts all such risks of whatever nature." Unfortunately,
this is only the beginning.
Other provisions required in the agreement (and this is not an exhaustive list)
include STANDARD U.C.C. WARRANTY DISCLAIMERS, limitations of liability (ideally
zero), indemnification from the Buyer for the benefit of Seller (including
a specific indemnity for Seller's negligence), liability insurance purchased by
the Buyer naming Seller as an additional insured and insuring the indemnification
provision, and a number of other provisions normally found in aircraft sale
agreements. This brings up more questions, such as how much liability insurance
is appropriate in an experimental aircraft sale transaction and how much
is the Buyer willing to pay for. The list of issues goes on and on.
As you may have guessed I am an attorney, but, in this instance I am not giving
legal advice and do not intepret this message as legal advice. The purpose of
this message was to give all those interested an idea of the things required
for a serious attempt at avoiding and/or limiting liability and how commercial
aircraft transactions might apply to transactions in smaller aircracft. The
best advice I can give you all is that potential (if not real) liability exists
and you need to take appropriate steps to protect your interest. In a specific
transaction, get an attorney involved that knows the legal and practical
issues, and, if its obtainable get insurance that protects your interests. (I'll
now return to lurking mode.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The use of Loctite |
>
>I am just doing a final assembly of the control rods, and it occured to me
>that I have never seen any mention of the use of Loctite.
>
>Is it recommended, or are there any problems with it ? I realise that it
>would not be the primary method of vibration-proofing a joint.
>
>John C-GDOC
John,
If you use it be careful. I had one of the rod-end bearings on my elevator
push tube freeze. I think it was from the lock-tite but can't be 100%
certain. I soaked the bearing in lacquer thinner and it did free up. I
will still replace it prior to the first flight. I'll sleep better at night
knowing a new bearing is in.
It was mentioned in another post that the freezing could cause the nut and
bolt to turn, followed by the nut coming off and loss of control. I doubt
it will get that far. When the bearing froze, the stick was so tight that
it was obvious something was wrong. Remember during pre-flight "Flight
Controls Free and Correct"?
Hope this helps.
Scott Gesele N506RV (It WILL fly this Spring)
scottg(at)villagenet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler) |
| Subject: | 1997 Twin Cities RV Forum |
Fellow Listers:
Just a quick notice that a date has been established for the 3rd Annual Twin
Cities RV Builder's Forum.
This will be held Sat. April 19, 1997 at St. Paul Downtowm Airport, St.
Paul, MN . Our format is a day-long event with RVs on display inside a
beautiful corporate hangar, speakers on RV topics, vendors, lots of door
prizes, a fly market, a sheet metal workshop (last year we assembled an RV-6
vertical stab in 6 hours and gave it away as our grand prize). Van's
aircraft will be represented by Bill Benedict. In the evening, a banquet is
planned with Larry Vetterman (of High-Country Exhaust fame ) as our guest
speaker.
Bring the kids, bring the wife (we are planning a shopping excursion to the
Mall of America) for a day of RV fun.
E-mail me directly and I'll put you on our mailing list for further info.
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Van's AirForce
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing, Van's AirForce, RV-4 in progress, N722DW
= 347 Krattley Lane
= Hudson, WI 54016
= 715-386-1239
= email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM> |
| Subject: | Adel Clamps (Rev A) |
|Revision A, 1-9-97 to original posting
I've seen some conversation recently concerning "Adel" clamps
and their suitability for use around fuel, high temps, etc.
I've pulled the specs and will excerpt some of their contents
as follows:
The "Adel" clamp is more properly called an MS21919 aircraft
clamp. The company named Adel built a goodly portion of the
MS21919 clamps back in the 60's (and may still). The term
sort of stuck on these devices in spite of the fact that they
are now made by dozens of companies.
|The full description for these clamps follows the convention
|MS21919WXXZZ where:
|W = "wedge" feature in cushion that helps prevent escape of small
|wires out of cushion. Virtually all new production of MS21919 clamps
|below size 50 have the wedge feature . . .
XX characters have the following significance:
DE = Aluminum band, Ethylene Propylene Cushion (212F)
DF = Aluminum band, Nitrile Cushion (212F)
DG = Aluminum band, Chloroprene Cushion (212F)
CE = Corrosion Resistant Steel band, Ethylene Propylene Cushion (275F)
CF = Corrosion Resistant Steel band, Nitrile Propylene Cushion (200F)
CH = Corrosion Resistant Steel band, Silicone Cushion (400F)
CG = Corrosion Resistant Steel band, Chloroprene Cushion (212F)
CJ = Corrosion Resistant Steel band, Fluorosilicone Cushion (450F)
F = Low Carbon Steel Band, Nitrile Cushion (212F)
G = Low Carbon Steel Band, Chloroprene Cushion (212F)
H = Low Carbon Steel Band, Silicon Cushion (400F)
CAUTION - Clamps with low carbon steel bands are not recommended
for new design and most were purged from stocks back in early 80's
. . . however . . . you never know what might show up in the
Fly-Market at OSH so I've included the "heads up" here.
Cushion Application and Color Information:
Ethylene Propylene - for use in areas contaminated with phosphate-
ester hydraulic fluid and other synthetic fluids. Excellent ozone
resistance., Not resistant to petroleum based fluids. Color shall
be solid purple.
Nitrile - for use primarily in fuel immersion and fuel vapors.
Good ozone resistance. Not resistant to phosphate-ester based fluids.
Not for use on titanium tubing. Color shall be solid yellow.
Chloroprene - for general purpose use in areas contaminated with
petroleum based hydraulic fluids and occasional fuel splash.
Excellent ozone resistant. Not resistant to phosphate-ester
based fluids. Not for use on titanium tubing. Color shall be
black with a blue identifier patch.
Silicone - for elevated temperature usage in phosphate-ester
based fluid and other synthetic fluid contaminated areas.
Unaffected by ozone. Not resistant to petroleum based fluids.
Color shall be natural white.
Fluorosilicone - for elevated temperature usage in petroleum
based fluid contaminated areas. Unaffected by ozone. Not resistant
to phosphate-ester based fluids. Color shall be solid blue.
|Silicone - RED now obsolete and used only on the low carbon
|Steel
-------------------------------
The last characters (ZZ) are digits describing the internal
diameter of the closed clamp in 1/16ths of an inch. E.G. an
MS21219WDG4 is aluminum strap inside a chloroprene cushion
and sized to support 1/4" diameter bundle of wires, tubing, etc.
I note that the spec does not speak to the "red" cushions
currently being discussed. I recall seeing a number of clamps
with red cushions over the years but quite frankly, I don't know
if they were MS21919 or perhaps some other part number.
|UPDATE: All of the "reds" have been purged from Raytheon's stocks,
|couldn't even find one in the junk boxes that I had access to. Mr.
|Sobek says the the one he found does carry the part number MS21919H**
|which tells us it is indeed the obsolete, low carbon steel version
|and silicon rubber (not recommended for use where "wet" with
|hydrocarbons.
Regards,
Bob . . .
AeroElectric Connection
////
(o o)
==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo==========
| |
| Go ahead, make my day . . . |
| Show me where I'm wrong. |
=================================
72770.552ompuserve.com
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The use of Loctite |
<<
I am just doing a final assembly of the control rods, and it occured to me
that I have never seen any mention of the use of Loctite.
Is it recommended, or are there any problems with it ? I realise that it
would not be the primary method of vibration-proofing a joint.
>>
This was addressed in a recent RVator. Vans cautions to size pushrods such
that if either or both ends become loose that at full retraction the opposite
side is still firmly connected. I sized pushrods by finding the centerpoint
and then inserting the rod end in another 4 full turns. This limits your
adjustment but insures that a disconnect can not occur. Van states that a
recent Glasair crash was attributed to an elevator disconnect caused by
improper sizing.
The loctite should be fine as a secondary method, jsut remember to use the
BLUE which is for removable items, not the RED which is permanent ie: studs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martinph(at)cyberbury.net |
I just had to respond to the tax issue that is up on the list . speaking
from experience , if you live in the glorious state of Connecticut you
had better pay the tax when you buy the kit ( or kits ) or this state is
gonna hose you with penalties and intrest. its not a pleasant sight to
see one of those bills show up in your mailbox. just pay it and make
sure you save a receipt .chances are they will be calling on you when
you get your N number so be a good scout and be prepared.
good luck
jeff rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daniel Houlton <tc75918(at)hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Brian Hitchings wrote:
>
>
> On Wed 9 Jan 1997 Bill Nash wrote : "I'm no attorney and this definately
> isn't legal advice, but:
> > This is why many owners of a homebuilt will part out the aircraft,
> > even though it's flying ..."
>
> I am an attorney practising in Aviation Law in South Africa. I must say
> that, cetainly as far as South African law is concerned, the scheme
> described by Bill to limit one's liability is fraught with difficulty. We
> have a maxim, which I'm sure applies in the USA, that the law looks not so
> much at what people say they are doing, as to what they are in fact doing.
> In Bill's example, (if I understand it properly) the idea is to sell a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> flying aircraft to the purchaser, but to describe the aircraft as "parts".
> The real, as opposed to declared, intention of the parties is to buy and
> sell an aircraft. I think that any Court would see through the charade,
That's not quite what I got out of it. My impression is that the seller
will break the aircraft up into several parts and sell these individual
parts as "unairworthy" to several different people. Then the buyer (who
may be one of those people), will buy all those parts from them. The
buyer then takes the burden of making an airworthy aircraft from a bunch
of parts.
Now there's no reason to actually take the aircraft apart to give to
all these different people. They could just buy the part with the
intention of picking it up "next week", and then deciding to sell it
to someone else instead and have them pick it up instead. The buyer
picks them all up together.
--Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com> |
>
>I just had to respond to the tax issue that is up on the list . speaking
>from experience , if you live in the glorious state of Connecticut you
>had better pay the tax when you buy the kit ( or kits ) or this state is
>gonna hose you with penalties and intrest.
I sense a common theme emerging: how do I know what *my* state will do with
respect to taxes?
When I butted heads with the State of Illinois over use tax on my Mooney
201, I called AOPA hoping that they could steer me to someone who would
know what the state could and could not do. Pleasant surprise, they keep
track of that info themselves, for all 50 states. The legal info and some
friendly advice were free for the asking, since I am an AOPA member.
Dunno if EAA provides a similar service. If they don't, it might be worth
joining AOPA for this info alone, given the stakes. In my case, Illinois
wanted about $5K in tax on the Mooney; after three years of futile
resistance including lawyers, I was forced to pay over $8K including
interest. Ouch.
Regards,
DJ Molny
(lurking, waiting for adequate free time and $$)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
>
> 258 mph? I think that is just a tad above Vne!!!
>
I didn't see a :-) so I may have missed a "tounge in cheek here". But
in case you were serious, you should remember that as the builder
(i.e. manufacturer) of the aircraft, Dave can specify whatever Vne he
wants to.
I'm not saying that Van's *recommendations* should be taken lightly,
but still, these are experimentals and each one is one of a kind. You
build it, you spec it!
BTW, I still see a lot of posts to this lists that include the full
text of the referenced messages -- I for one hope that more people
will make an effort to read and abide by the "RV-list usage
guidelines" (posted periodically here by Matt), which state in part:
> - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
> response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
> reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
> quoting entire original posts has the size of the archive can not be
> overstated! DO NOT DO THIS!
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFierb6707(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Sheet Metal Classes |
Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander Sportair?
How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
Soon to order
RV6 Tail Kit
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage crate size |
>
>>Finishing kit: Dunno... can someone give me this for completeness.
>>
>Frank;
> I don't know the measurements, but it will easily fit in the back of an 87
>Dodge Dakota pickup
Ummm.. thanks John.
Except we don't have Dodge Dakota pickups here. Perhaps you could send me
one so I can measure it? :-)
Frank.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass;
Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel
Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read".
PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax), Marton | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!"
http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv/ |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OshKosh 97 no flt line pass rqd |
If you're planning on flying your recently completed RV to OshKosh 97, you
might want to save some baggage space for rope to tie off your pride and joy.
The powers that be in OshKosh have decided in their infinite wisdom to no
longer seperate members from non-members. There will be one general
admission charge which will allow all attending access to the flight line.
Theres an ongoing conversation with EAA Public Relations officer Dick
Knapinski on the AOL Airshow b.b under OshKosh heading on this subject.
Over the years I've displayed two a/c at OshKosh. My RV4 and a T-Craft I
once owned. I didn't rope them off and both ended up with dings. The T-craft
when a person rested their camera on top of cowling for a flightline picture,
the RV when I was tied next to the walk way and the constant brushing against
wing tip.
I guess my point is this year you can expect even larger crowds, more
un-attended children, and more people who come just for the airshow.
RVator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
On Wed 9 Jan 1997 Bill Nash wrote : "I'm no attorney and this definately
isn't legal advice, but:
> This is why many owners of a homebuilt will part out the aircraft,
> even though it's flying ..."
Perhaps aim to sell your aircraft in a less litigation-friendly country?
For example, here in New Zealand, these types of lawsuits (and lawyers) are
extremely uncommon. Whilst selling an aircraft from the US to NZ may be too
difficult (although I know there is at least one RV flying in NZ with an
N-number rather than a NZ reg), it may be worth looking at selling in
Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, or somewhere similar.
Frank.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass;
Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel
Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read".
PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax), Marton | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!"
http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv/ |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cold weather flying |
I was wondering if anyone has checked the difference in cylinder head
temperatures from the front cyls to the rear cyls in cold (-15 deg C)
temps. I was thinking of installing baffles in front of the front cyls to
prevent the blast of cold air from impacting directly onto the front
cyls. Any before/after checks been done?
How successful have people been in trying to seal the sliding canopy on
the RV-6. There is a cold draft which seems to come from behind. Also the
sides move out 3/8" and must be allowing a lot of air to escape.
Thanks
Ted french RV-6A flying
Prince George BC (cccold)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | RMI Micromonitor vs. AV-10 |
>
>I purchased a Grand Rapids Technology engine monitoring system...monitors
CHT (2), EGT (2)...
I agree, this unit is *definitely* the best bang/buck. However, I want to
monitor/scan ALL four cylinders for all temps so its out for me.
I especially like the BRD warning system (that's a BIG RED LIGHT that
flashes when any parameter goes haywire) .
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edward Cole <emcole(at)concentric.net> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
Patrick Kelley wrote:
>
>
> aol.com!TESTPYLOT(at)matronics.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > DEAR RV BUILDER
> >
> >
>
> I won't comment on advertising on the 'list, especially as this type of
> item would be of interest to me. However, I would feel uncomfortable
> having work of this type done by someone who is so ignorant of the
> medium he is using as to not even know that all capitals = bad
> netiquette. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
> for mistakes. This person may be good at what they do, but the ad does
> not give me confidence in their attention to detail.
>
> PatK - RV-6A
Oh you perfect people....give me a break and get back in your
garage/apartment and spend time on your projects...I'll bet even Van
spells some words incorrectly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric) |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
Hi all,
Please don't mis-interperet this as a flame, it is not. I just have to vouch
for Werner, who is a friend and a fellow chapter 52 member. I can assure you
he is very new to the ways of the net. He spends all of his time building an
impecable RV-6A that will be a show stopper. He may be a little rough
around the edges when it comes to cyber speak, Lord knows I had to be
spanked a few times when I first got on the list.
Point is, anyone considering one of these engraved panels can be confident
in Werner's attention to detail and craftsmanship. It's well reflected in
his bird, which I'm guessing should fly any day now.
Eric Henson
Dana Point, Ca
ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Reply Seperator<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>I won't comment on advertising on the 'list, especially as this type of
item would be of interest to me. However, I would feel uncomfortable
having work of this type done by someone who is so ignorant of the
medium he is using as to not even know that all capitals = bad
netiquette. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
for mistakes. This person may be good at what they do, but the ad does
not give me confidence in their attention to detail.<<<
PatK - RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Morrissey <John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au> |
You guy's should come over to Australia for a Holiday about this time of year,
28 Degree's Celsius today in Sunny Canberra Australia. I think I might ring a
mate and go and do some RV Aero's :-) :-)
Speaking of Primers - I spent yesterday afternoon after work priming the second
wing parts. I will be riveting the skeleton together tonight. :-)
Happy RVing!
John Morrissey
>>
> Bob; It may be the cold weather has slowed up the flow of electrons in
>the wires!!! From what I see on the weather channel, you are almost as cold
>as we are. We're down to a numbing 32 degrees. I sure hope that I survive.
>John Darby RV6 N61764 flying
>Stephenville TX
>johnd@our-town.com
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Morrissey
CSIRO ITS
Data Communications Manager
Phone:- 06 2766811
Fax:- 06 2766617
Mobile:- 018 628804
Email:- John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au
0000,0000,ffffCSIRO ---- AUSTRALIA'S SCIENCE,
AUSTRALIA'S FUTURE!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4131rb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: The use of Loctite |
What in the world do you need locktite for? everything is either saftey
wired, cotter keyed, lock nuted, or has a jam nut. These are tryed and true
aviation techniqes that have been working since the begining of aviation
time. Locktite in use with any of the above is fine, however I wouldnt
suggest It as a replacement.
Ryan
B RV4131RB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
Good Suggestion. I'm 99% sure you can download AOPA's Tax booklet from
Compuserve, but I couldn't find it (yet) on their Web Page for Members
(http://www.aopa.org/members/) - check it out! I did pull out the
following, that I thought may be of interest.
EB #80131
barnes_eric(at)tandem.com
Tonight's guest speaker will be Ray Speciale, ESQ, CPA, CFII
with Yodice and Associates. Tonight's topic will cover,
"Minimizing Tax Problems of Aircraft Ownership."
Moderator asked...
Ray, what pitfalls are there in incorporating and listing
my corporation in Delaware?
Ray Speciale (Esq.)
Mark...generally people will incorporate in DE in order to
avoid sales tax however, this approach may not work if state
authorities discover that your airplane is based and used in
another state if that happens you can be assessed a *use*
tax by the state where your aircraft is based>>>
Moderator asked...
What kind of percentage is the use tax? Is it close to the
sales tax?
Ray Speciale (Esq.)
Mark...it has to be the same percentage as the state's sales
tax>>>
Moderator asked...
What constitutes "use" in that state? A percentage of
usage out of that airfield?
Ray Speciale (Esq.)
Mark....not necessarily, if the state can establish that the
aircraft is regularly based at a field within it's borders
they generally will have sufficient grounds for assessing a
use tax>>>
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 01-09-97 FROM SMTPGATE (D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com)
>
>I just had to respond to the tax issue that is up on the list . speaking
>from experience , if you live in the glorious state of Connecticut you
>had better pay the tax when you buy the kit ( or kits ) or this state is
>gonna hose you with penalties and intrest.
I sense a common theme emerging: how do I know what *my* state will do with
respect to taxes?
When I butted heads with the State of Illinois over use tax on my Mooney
201, I called AOPA hoping that they could steer me to someone who would
know what the state could and could not do. Pleasant surprise, they keep
track of that info themselves, for all 50 states. The legal info and some
friendly advice were free for the asking, since I am an AOPA member.
Dunno if EAA provides a similar service. If they don't, it might be worth
joining AOPA for this info alone, given the stakes. In my case, Illinois
wanted about $5K in tax on the Mooney; after three years of futile
resistance including lawyers, I was forced to pay over $8K including
interest. Ouch.
Regards,
DJ Molny
(lurking, waiting for adequate free time and $$)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Kit sale liability - Response (fwd) |
I think this is good legal advice. I bought a Pitts project once and the seller
had a lawyer friend draft up a similar worded document that I was required to
sign.
HOWEVER, I had another friend that sold an RV. He checked with EAA HQ.
They said that to their knowledge no EAA'er has ever been sued.
The main reason is lawyers want to go after someone with deep pockets and most
home builders don't qualify. Also, the aircraft is clearly licensed as "Experimental"
on the paperwork and on the aircraft so I think any jury would clearly realize
that
the buyer knew they were buying an expermental aircraft.
Herman
> From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Thu Jan 9 12:09:47 1997
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> From: mn.frontiercomm.net!justjas(at)matronics.com
> Message-Id: <199701091612.KAA22682(at)tc.frontiercomm.net>
> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 10:11:39 PST
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: RE: Kit sale liability - Response
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> My background is commercial aircraft sales and acquisitions. In this arena we
also are concerned about liability issues. The method normally used in a commercial
transaction to avoid and/or limit liability involves several pieces.
First, the seller (aircraft owner) is normally a corporation or other entity
that exists for the purpose of limiting the shareholders liability. (The comment
about having a corporation own your aircraft is correct for purposes of limiting
personal liability, but comes at a cost. Setting up and administering
the corporation involves $$, probubly somewhere in the range of $400 to $800 per
year.) The most important step in limiting liability, however, is ensuring
that you have an aircraft sales agreement containing the proper terms and conditions.
It is very important first to properly describe the transaction in the
agreement, i.e., "Seller built the aircraft and makes no representations, warranties,
covenants or acknowledgments regarding it!
s !
> co!
> ndition, fitness for use, lack of defects or any other thing. Buyer represents,
warrants, acknowledges and agrees that he has inspected the aircraft, its
parts, components and equipment, and had other professionals selected by Buyer
inspect the aircraft, its parts, components and equipment, and Buyer, in consultation
with such professionals, has determined for all purposes that the aircraft,
its parts, components and equipment, is completely and unconditionally
accpetable. Buyer understands and acknowledges the risks associated with purchasing
and operating an experimental and/or homebuilt aircraft and willingly,
under no compulsion whatsoever, accepts all such risks of whatever nature." Unfortunately,
this is only the beginning.
>
> Other provisions required in the agreement (and this is not an exhaustive list)
include STANDARD U.C.C. WARRANTY DISCLAIMERS, limitations of liability (ideally
zero), indemnification from the Buyer for the benefit of Seller (including
a specific indemnity for Seller's negligence), liability insurance purchased
by the Buyer naming Seller as an additional insured and insuring the indemnification
provision, and a number of other provisions normally found in aircraft
sale agreements. This brings up more questions, such as how much liability insurance
is appropriate in an experimental aircraft sale transaction and how much
is the Buyer willing to pay for. The list of issues goes on and on.
>
> As you may have guessed I am an attorney, but, in this instance I am not giving
legal advice and do not intepret this message as legal advice. The purpose
of this message was to give all those interested an idea of the things required
for a serious attempt at avoiding and/or limiting liability and how commercial
aircraft transactions might apply to transactions in smaller aircracft. The
best advice I can give you all is that potential (if not real) liability exists
and you need to take appropriate steps to protect your interest. In a specific
transaction, get an attorney involved that knows the legal and practical
issues, and, if its obtainable get insurance that protects your interests.
(I'll now return to lurking mode.)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne) |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Kit sale liability - Response |
Hi (why aren't you working?),
I've been advised by hired lawyers in the same way the lawyers are advising here
(tho they are not really giving legal advice!). That is to say that sneaky
tricks will likely not get you anywhere but in trouble.
My fear would not be that of being sued by the buyer but by his heirs. Imagine
you are in court and the deceased buyer's wife says, "My husband and the seller
worked out a scheme where he bought different parts of the plane but it was all
together and flying when he actually got it."
I was particularly advised that forming a corporation *WITH THE INTENT OF
AVOIDING PERSONAL LIABILITY* would probably be reason for the court to disallow
those protections normally granted to a corporation.
Read one of your standard software agreements. We get away with a lot by saying
that the software product is not merchantable in any way and is not fit for any
purpose. Of course, much of it isn't!
Doesn't the EAA have a lot of good stuff on this??
Hal Kempthorne halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. (SJC)
Debonair N6134V RV-6AQ on order!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
| Subject: | Sheet Metal Classes |
You'd be very lucky if someone can compare the two, not too many people
have gone to both! When I was checking into something like this
initially (since I'd never worked with sheet metal either) I was told it
would be helpful, if I hadn't used tools much.
I think if you can find another builder in your area, most would be glad
to have you over and show you the basics in about an hour. Let you
drill, debur, dimple, hit the scotchbrite wheel, and squeeze some
rivets. I happened to join a local EAA chapter on the night they had a
hands-on session of just that. Then I put the money I would have spent
on a sheet metal course towards tools!
--------------------- cut here
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
>----------
>From:
> aol.com!RFierb6707(at)matronics.com[SMTP:aol.com!RFierb6707(at)matronics.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 11:30 AM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Sheet Metal Classes
>
>
>Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander Sportair?
> How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
> Soon to order
>RV6 Tail Kit
> Rob
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry & Valerie Wawrin <barval(at)digital.net> |
| Subject: | Florida Builders Group? |
Anyone out there know of a builders group in East Central Florida? =
(Space Coast) I'm looking into building an RV-6A Quick this fall and =
could really use some advise and expertise on a number of topics. For =
now, I'd appreciate input on:
1. Fuel Injection -v- Carburetor
2. Constant Speed -v- Fixed Pitch
3. New Engine (180hp) -v- Remanufactured -v- Rebuilt
Thanks...
Still dreaming...for now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
You have that right, I'll give them a couple of weeks to solve their problem
but otherwize I'm gone..
---------------------
From: aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
Date: 97-01-08 19:09:09 EST
The lack of activity is because we can't get on line with AOL.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Bronson <70773.2700(at)CompuServe.COM> |
| Subject: | Kit sale liability |
In a country where a lady can get $3,000,000+ from McDonald's for serving her
hot coffee that SHE spills in her own lap, one has to be concerned about
liability.
Van's mentions "repeat offenders" in their video. I wonder if any of these
folks are on the list and would be interested in sharing with their approach to
the liability question.
I guess the best way to handle the problem is: keep your RV for ever!
Tim Bronson - Pittsburgh, PA - RV8 WB (Wanna Build)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean & Scott Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The use of Loctite |
> I am just doing a final assembly of the control rods, and it occured to me
> that I have never seen any mention of the use of Loctite.
>
> Is it recommended, or are there any problems with it ? I realise that it
> would not be the primary method of vibration-proofing a joint.
>
> John C-GDOC
I'm not aware of any 'problems' with Locktite (Anyone?). As was stated
by someone else, aviation seems slow to change on time-honored practices
etc. I'm an A&P, and while I don't locktite as much as I safety-wire and
cotter-pin on aircraft, I will admit IMHO Locktite is good stuff. I use
a lot of the blue, removable stuff (242?) on my mountain bike (which
gets the bejesus rattled out of it -I take my RV building frustrations
out on the trails) with great success, and yes I have used it on jam
nuts on aircraft push-pull controls. Great for that little extra bit of
confidence. The red stuff (271?) certainly does the job but can be hell
to remove (MEK helps, so does heat), I guess that's why they call it
'permanent' eh?
Scott
N4ZW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mark jennings" <markjenn(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Liability Question |
I'm not a lawyer, just a lurker, but I've investigated the seller-liability
issue in some detail. I have enough assets to be a lawsuit target, but not
enough that I could simply "write off" my airplane if I ever decided it didn't
suit my needs.
Like all law issues, there are no clear cut answers, just $250/hr fees for
answers like "well, it depends." (Please, no flames.) But here are the
options I can see if you want to sell/dispose of your homebuilt:
1. Burn the airplane.
2. Purchase liability insurance for the "high risk" period after the sale.
You can probably get a rider on your personal liability umbrella policy that
would cover this liability.
3. Sell it with a well-written "hold harmless" agreement.
4. Sell it from a corporation.
5. Don't worry about it.
If I ever sell (I hope not but circumstances do change), I'll probably do #2
and #3 and hope for the best. There is some risk to everything.
There are other mitigation strategies as well, all of which I plan to follow:
a) check out the person buying your airplane...I wouldn't sell to anyone who
has a high money/sense ratio or who has low-cost access to the legal system
(i.e., a lawyer); b) build your airplane exactly to plans with few if any
modifications - this shifts the legal burden to the designer rather than you;
c) build very carefully and document your construction in great detail,
including stills, videos, a comprehensive builder log, etc., d) have your
plane checked out carefully before flight; and e) require that the buyer
immediately re-license the airplane by doing an annual, usually as a shared
cost annual/pre-purchase inspection.
As others have pointed out, it is stupid to engineer some crazy scheme of
selling the airplane as unairworthy parts and re-assembling them. You might
as well paint a target on your back.
My $0.02.
- Mark (RV-8 or S-51 fence-sitter)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Lewis <lewy(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Kit sale liability - Response |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------635729335B30
Why not something such as a "mutual release" signed by each party after
the sale. See attached for an EXAMPLE. Oh, its not legal advise I'm
just a truck driver.
--
Just an opinion mindya
Starduster SA-100 4/sale O-320E2D
Never mind I'm keeping it.
lewy(at)pacbell.net
__________|__________
\ \_0_/ /
__\___(_+_)___/__
|/ \|
|...........................|
--------------635729335B30
GENERAL RELEASE
________________________________________ and
_______________________________________ agree:
WHEREAS, certain disputes have occurred between the parties
hereto, and,
WHEREAS, they desire to amicably resolve these disputes,
IT IS AGREED:
That in consideration of this agreement, the parties mutually
release one another from all claims of any kind whatsoever from
the beginning of time to the date of the execution of this
agreement, and that this mutual release shall be valid and binding
and insure for the benefit of the heirs, successors and assigns
of both parties.
=====================================================================
READ THIS INSTRUMENT FULLY AND CAREFULLY PRIOR TO SIGNING. THIS
IS A LEGALLY VALID AND BINDING OBLIGATION TO RELEASE PARTIES FROM
ALL KNOWN AND UNKNOWN OBLIGATIONS. THIS INSTRUMENT AFFECTS
IMPORTANT LEGAL RIGHTS. THINK CAREFULLY AND CONSIDER OBTAINING
LEGAL ADVICE PRIOR TO SIGNING
=====================================================================
Dated: _____-____-____ at _________,__
________________________________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________
--------------635729335B30--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Kit sale liability - Response |
Guess I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I sold my RV-6 about 3 years ago. I had
an aviation lawyer draw up the sales agreement with all pertenant data for
the state of Georgia. It included the other disclaimers found in the other
posts. One of the more interesting items in the agreement stated that "Death
is a definite possibility in operating this aircraft." Also, "Any litigation
must be done in sellers state and county" I was also very selective in to
whom I would sell my RV-6. I had several prospective buyers who were just
NOT Capeable of handeling the RV. I sold my RV to an airline pilot who had
thousands of hours, several hundred in tail-draggers. He also lives on the
other side of the country. Don't sell to just anyone who has the cash. I
know that in reality, the courts can and do act in strange ways, but, every
little thing helps.
I think my liability has been even further reduced because of what the
new owner has changed on the RV. He changed the mechanical flaps to
electric. The entire instrument panel was removed and replaced with approx.
$20,000 of avionics and instruments. These changes require a new FAA
inspection and flight test hours. To my knowledge, I don't think he has done
this. Any lawyers out there agree with me that the last item greatly reduces
my liability? I think so, since the aircraft Airworthiness Certificate is no
longer valid.
I would love to share the contract my lawyer made for me, but, he asked
that I not distribute it to others. Anyone interested in contacting me may
do so through E-Mail at RV6DD(at)aol.com
Dave, Getting ready to be a repeat offender.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WCannon313(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Visiting the Atlanta area |
Hello
My name is Walt Cannon, I am a RV-6 builder and flyer and an engineer for the
Boeing company. I will be travelling for work to the Atlanta area from the
13th to the 23rd of this month. If anyone in that area needs some rivet
bucking help, advice, or just wants to talk RVs E-mail me prior to the
evening of Sunday the 12th and tell me how to get in touch.
Thanks
Walt Cannon
wcannon131(at)aol.com
N36WC
50 hours and doing final prep for paint
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Classes |
My wife worked for Alexander Aeroplane and had the chance to attend the Sheet
metal class. She is not very mechanically inclined. Before the class, I
wouldn't let her touch my project with a rivet gun. I couldn't believe how
much she learned. I must add that neither she, nor I, are connected with
Alexander Sport Air. After seeing what my wife could do after the class
compared with before, I would recommend their classes to anyone who has not
worked with sheet metal. Very professionally operated.
On a side note. Ever wonder why the service from A/C Spruce was so
terrible after the acquisition of Alexander Aeroplane? I could tell you all
some very interesting tales, but I won't do so here. I will say that I about
fell over laughing when I read the letter that A/C Spruce sent out to their
customers explaining the reasons for poor service.
Dave in Georgia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
>Hi all,
>
>Please don't mis-interperet this as a flame, it is not. I just have to vouch
>for Werner, who is a friend and a fellow chapter 52 member. I can assure you
>he is very new to the ways of the net. He spends all of his time building an
>impecable RV-6A that will be a show stopper.
>
>Point is, anyone considering one of these engraved panels can be confident
>in Werner's attention to detail and craftsmanship. It's well reflected in
>his bird, which I'm guessing should fly any day now.
>
>Eric Henson
RV-listers ... I would like to second Eric's comments. I am not a friend
or chapter member of Werner's (and I haven't met Eric either), but I did
get to visit Werner's workshop and RV6A last month after a Tech Counselor
inspection of another RV6A nearby.
His RV6A really is impeccable, and his engraved instrument
panels look really nice. The rear engraving protects the color and
lettering, so the panel will still look nice after a lot of use. Since the
lettering is filled from the back, creative use of letter color can be used
to code switches, etc. The panels are made from a "Lexan-like" material,
and have a nice, non-glare finish on the face.
An independant, unbiased report ...
... Gil (only met him once) Alexander
gila(at)flash.net
RV6A, #20701 ... fiberglassing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Hitchings" <wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Kit sale liability - Response |
justjas(at)mn.frontiercomm.net wrote : "My background is commercial aircraft
sales and acquisitions. In this arena we also are concerned about
liability issues. The method normally ..."
----------
The proposed method of limiting liability as between immediate parties is
simple : write it into the contract as suggested.
As I see the problem, however, what about potential liability to subsequent
users of the aircraft? Certainly in South Africa, and no doubt in the USA
too, no contract between two parties can bind persons who are not parties
to that contract.
Liability has at least two sources : contract and tort. Contractual
liability is relatively easy to get out of - depending on any legislation
limiting contracting out of liability; but liability arising out of tort is
difficult to avoid. What is your defence to a pilot's dependants who sue
you after the RV you built came to grief because you negligently forgot to
tighten the rod-end bearings on the elevator?
That's why Cessna can still be sued by owners of aircraft, dependants, etc
they didn't even know existed, nevermind that they never sold the aircraft
to.
Scarey stuff.
The answer, as far as we in South Africa are concerned, is to insure
oneself against liabilty claims arising out of manufacture's liability.
Let me disclaim liability too : what I set out above is a quick
conversational resonse to previous postings. It is not intended to be legal
advice (If it were, I'd charge enough to order my fuselage kit.)
Brian Hitchings
wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
South Africa
RV-6A, Empennage completed, impatiently waiting for wing kit to arrive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
In my project timeline I've added a "highlights" section which people
might be interested in since some of you were discussing time to finish
certain sub-projects. This is for the newer pre-punched empennage kit,
and the quickbuild kit (so far). I've also added a small section
underneath which lists my monthly totals. I'm not sure why anyone would
care about this, now that I think about it! Oh well, here it is:
http://www.aftershock.org/mitch/rv.htm
--------------------- cut here
-----------------------------------------------------
Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kevin lane <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Reply Seperator<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
>for mistakes. This person may be good at what they do, but the ad does
>not give me confidence in their attention to detail.<<<
>
>PatK - RV-6A
>
>
---------------------------------------- Reply SEPARATOR
?-------------------------------------
gotcha! (times is slo')
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Mike
Downloaded the manuals. Looks very good.
Any RMI instruments in planes in Oz?
I would like to buy the units before they go up in price in Feb. 97, but I'm
not sure how CASA (the 'downunder FAA')would treat them as we don't have an
experimental category here. (We're told that it is on it's way. ... don't
hold your breath)
All replies welcome, even if you just know someone with one in Australia.
Royce Craven
roycec(at)ozemail.com.au
>
>>listers
>>
>>I'm interested in getting an engine monitor for my rv.
>
>If you havent seen it, RMI has info including manuals and magazine articles
>on the web(I just found it myself and I have been looking). Its at
>http://SportFlyer.com/ under the avionics section. Thanks for the heads up
>on this site Barry. There is so much good stuff here it should be part of
>the faq.
>
>Mike Wills
>RV-4 (wings)
>willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Gottschalk <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Classes |
Rob,
EAA Chapter 524 hosted the Alexander Aeroplane workshop in Frederick
Maryland last fall. I had the opportunity to help with the workshop and I
thought it was a super program. The metal workshop had about a dozen
workstations, with each one building a representative piece of wing/control
surface, complete with inspection door, to take home to brag about. They
provided each workstation with all the appropriate tools needed to complete
the project, plus enough variation in tools to get a feel for what you like
best. I would highly recommend the course.
I took a metal workshop class from George Orndorff before I started my RV6a
and I would also highly recommend his class. George moved down next to
Avery's. Speak up George, if your still doing your classes.
-Gene Gottschalk (hope I spelled everything OK)
geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov
geneg(at)oz.kis.net (better)
>
>Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander Sportair?
> How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
> Soon to order
>RV6 Tail Kit
> Rob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sylvan Adamson <sadamson(at)cyberhighway.net> |
>
>You have that right, I'll give them a couple of weeks to solve their problem
>but otherwize I'm gone..
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
>Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Reply-to: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: 97-01-08 19:09:09 EST
>
>
>The lack of activity is because we can't get on line with AOL.
>
>Jim Cone
>jamescone(at)aol.com
>
>If you change, don't think Cyberhighway or Micron net are any better. I've
come to the conclusion that their run by Frank and Earnest, and Bert and
Earnie. Sylvan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage crate size |
I just measured my box of finishing goodies. The following is in inches,
plus or minus 1/4 inch:
26 & 1/2 high
48 & 1/2 wide
96 & 1/2 long
Part of the height is a set of 2x4's that the crate sets on. Hope that helps
some.
Gene Francis, cafgef@ aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
| Subject: | Re:Gear Leg Fairings |
Randall:
1. :-)
2. I promise I will never repost the entire message.
I promise I will never repost the entire message.
I promise I will never repost the entire message.
...
David in Dallas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BestBillO(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy sealing, RV6,6a |
I've had good luck sealing the sides of my 6A slider by attaching a thin
piece of bicycle inner tube along the inside and length of the canopy sides.
No conflice with the rails, and the tube fills the void as the skirt expands
outward. Cost: $3.
Now, as far as sealing the slider up front near the roll bar, I could use
some suggestions. I've got a fair air leak near the top and in front of the
latch. Anyone had good luck here?
Bill Orcutt, RV-6A, 200 hrs BestBillO(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles H Fink <CHFINK(at)envc.sandia.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Dave, Getting ready to be a repeat offender. wrote
>>>>>>> I think my liability has been even further reduced because of
what the
new owner has changed on the RV. He changed the mechanical flaps to
electric. The entire instrument panel was removed and replaced with
approx.
$20,000 of avionics and instruments. These changes require a new FAA
inspection and flight test hours. To my knowledge, I don't think he has
done
this. Any lawyers out there agree with me that the last item greatly reduces
my liability? I think so, since the aircraft Airworthiness Certificate is no
longer valid.
I would love to share the contract my lawyer made for me, but, he asked
that I not distribute it to others. Anyone interested in contacting me may
do so through E-Mail at RV6DD(at)aol.com<<<<<
MY .02 The problem is that you as the builder are the manufacturer and
you have the manufacturers' liability no matter how many times the plane is
sold. The experimental airworthiness certificate as well as your non
professional builder status helps but does not eliminate the liability.
As far as the modification to the ac about 10 years ago the owner of Mid
Valley airport, E98, south of Albuquerque was attempting to stop the
takeoff of a Piper Super Cub towing a glider by parking his van in the
center of the runway. The pilot of the cub attempted to take off anyway
and hit the van causing brain damage (more?) to the pilot, a camera man in
the cub was not hurt. The glider was able to fly over the cub and van and
landed safely on the remaining runway. The cub pilot sued the airport
owner and Piper! The jury awarded the pilot about 3 million from Piper!
Facts: the Cub was illegally modified into a camera plane by turning the rear
seat to face the rear and a camera mount for a professional type movie
camera was attached to the fuselage and strut. This was a large heavy
camera they were using to film a commercial. The pilot knew the van was
on the runway. The glider pilot radioed that fact to the pilot before the cub
began to roll and the glider pilot testified to this fact at the trial.
The jury found Piper liable because the cub is a tail dragger with poor
forward visibility and therefore unsafe!
IMHO this is ludicrous. Piper appealed but I don't know the final result. The
legal system in the US needs a major overhaul. Spill coffee on yourself
(also in Albuquerque) or run your plane into a parked van and become a
millonair. BTW the lady(?) setteled with McDs for less than a million to
avoid appeals.
I intend to keep my RV for a long time and maybe the legal system will
improve before I have to sell.
Charles Fink, RV-6 N548CF flying
chfink(at)envc.sandia.gov
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
kevin lane wrote:
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Reply Seperator<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
> >for mistakes. This person may be good at what they do, but the ad does
> >not give me confidence in their attention to detail.<<<
> >
> >PatK - RV-6A
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------- Reply SEPARATOR
> ?-------------------------------------
> gotcha! (times is slo')
Actually, I did not put in that line; you got the mail program :)
However, to you and Mr. Cole and others, I admit that my post did make
it appear as if I was on my high horse. However, I assure you all that
I am not mistake free. I was merely commenting on the high error rate
in the advertisement. However, I DID say that I could not comment on
the quality of the product and, in the face of two testimonials, I am
willing to subscribe to the theory that he is new to the email
environment. I easily understand that someone may produce quality in
one area and not in another; you should see how I keep house. In short,
no offence meant, I apologise if any was given, and peace.
PatK - RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: INSTRUMENT PANEL ENGRAVING |
>having work of this type done by someone who is so ignorant of the
>medium he is using as to not even know that all capitals = bad
>netiquette. Also, the spelling would have me checking the entire panel
>for mistakes.
>
>PatK - RV-6A
>
Word from my EAA chapter says Werner makes some pretty nice stuff.
Hope the perfect people on the list haven't pissed off another potentially
very valuable addition to the list. I know of two *very* fine RV craftsmen
that got this type of response from list the first time they posted, and
said screw the a------s.
Let's welcome newbies (both internet and rv-list) and guide them instead of
jumping down their throats.
So Werner...welcome!
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Classes |
>Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander Sportair?
> How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
> Soon to order
>RV6 Tail Kit
I attended the Alexander course and can highly recommend it. The beginning
lecture was very enjoyable and informative, the second part was "here's the
tools go at it"...a bit too loosely structured.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
>The legal info and some
>friendly advice were free for the asking, since I am an AOPA member.
>
>Dunno if EAA provides a similar service.
>Regards,
>DJ Molny
>(lurking, waiting for adequate free time and $$)
Both AOPA and the EAA gave me the *wrong* advice on paying taxes. Theirs
would have been *very* costly.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | justjas(at)mn.frontiercomm.net |
| Subject: | Liability and Taxes |
Just two (2) quick observations (and them I will return to lurking in semi-perpetuity):
1. There is no "best" method to aviod liability. They all have pitfalls. (For
example, a corporation set up or administered improperly could result in a problem
called "piercing the corporate veil.") If you have the luxury use as many
as possible. In all circumstances, spend a few dollars on an attorney well
versed in the practical and legal issues of aviation AND get insurance coverage.
(In some transactions you can have the buyer name you as an additional insured
under the buyer's policy and it costs you nothing, but you must do it correctly
with proper documentation.)
2. As more and more states seek additional sources of revenue (the traditional
sources like income tax and property tax are getting very resistant to increases),
the people in those state revenue departments spend more time tracking down
non-traditional sources. Several years ago you could buy through mail order
and avoid application of a state's sales tax. I find it more and more difficult
to find mail order houses that don't charge your state's sales taxes (I'm
not convinced it being paid to my state, but that's another issue). A number
of states have specific exemptions for commercial aircraft purchases, but there
are very few exemptions for private and/or corporate aircraft. If you fail
to pay or find a legitimate exemption, you will eventually be found and you will
be required to pay all taxes and penalties. The best thing to do is figure
out early on how to minimize the tax you have to pay. An example strategy is
that some people on the list have paid sales tax on !
the materials and have avoided having to pay on the completed aircraft.
I've now said more on this list in two days than I've said in two years, so its
time to retire to relative obscurity.
Regards -- Jay Jenkins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFEEC.B7510DA0
Okay so it looks like there is only one sure fire way to move on from =
your homebuilt and "safely" become a repeat offender. You make sure your =
plane is insured for full replacement value. Get a darn good parachute. =
Go flying. Point the plane at an uninhabited place on the ground and =
ah.... forget how to fly it.=20
(the "I forgot" defense seems to work in politics and other areas.) Now =
since you don't remember how to fly bail out and call you insurance =
company. Upon receipt of your check call Vans..........Don't expect to =
get insurance on your next homebuilt....or at least not cheaply. ;-) =
Al prober(at)iwaynet.net=20
(Well you all said the list was getting slow)
IMHO this is ludicrous. Piper appealed but I don't know the final =
result. The
legal system in the US needs a major overhaul. Spill coffee on yourself
(also in Albuquerque) or run your plane into a parked van and become a
millonair. BTW the lady(?) setteled with McDs for less than a million to
avoid appeals. Charles Fink, RV-6 N548CF flying
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFEEC.B7510DA0--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric) |
| Subject: | Aircraft Liability Story |
Hi All,
Normally I'd keep this "sea story" to myself, but since some of you are
under about 5 feet of that white stuff and need something to read I thought
I throw my .02 in.
Although I live here in the Peoples Republic of California and am never
shocked by the constant array of frivolous litigations, this comes from
Oklahoma where my Dad lives. A family friend who is an aircraft broker, as a
sideline, is also a successful concrete contractor.
One day his only sales guy (high time pilot) is demonstrating a T-34B to a
prospective buyer. Investigation said they managed a departure stall and
went in nose straight down. Obviously the clients family sued, and
successfully, no surprise here. The kicker is, not too far away from the
airport is a highway. Driving on this highway is a heart patient that
happens to be a senior partner in a law firm. Said patient has just
undergone a triple by-pass and is returning home. Even though the Mentor
went in a mile away, the heart patient became so distraught that he had
another heart attack and assumed room temperature.
This one lightened our friends bank account by almost seven figures, why?
First our friend had something to go after. Second, the heart patient had
the inclination and the connections to make this very expensive (how much
justice can YOU afford).
I think the point that was made of limiting the possibility of litigation is
extremely valid. There are simply no rules in tort litigations. If the jury
is convinced that the widow and orphans have been wronged, you will surely
pay. If the heirs have easy access or deep pockets, you can win the lawsuit
and still come away broke. Proposed veils of responsibility such as parting
out and incorporation of assets is of no value if a smooth talking lawyer
can sway a juries opinion his way.
Oh for the days when we just went out behind the barn and duked it out.
Sorry for the bandwidth, Matt.
Eric Henson
Dana Point, CA
ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com
P.S. This Thanksgiving weekend our friend buzzed us in his newly restored
T-34, he still sells and flies planes. That's one for our side.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BestBillO(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV's in North Texas |
Listers,
Last posting sent before I was finished: RV'ers in north Texas, call,
fly-in or email me: Bill Orcutt, BestBillO(at)aol.com 817-855-5460
Wichita Falls, TX SPS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BestBillO(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: North Texas RV's |
Listers,
Any of you near the TX/OK border are welcome to stop in and visit me and
my 6A. I consider it show quality. At the risk of sounding commercial, I
would offer any rv'ers my FBO as a good place to stop, see my plane, spend
the night, etc. For obvious reasons, I offer RV's special fuel prices (about
$1.60/gallon presently), free hangaring, and good North Texas hospitality.
(Most of my business is Jet A, but I bought the place so I could fly more
and be with my plane!)
Any other RV'ers in the area that would like to get together, talk and
fly RV's, call or come by. There's no EAA chapter in Wichita Falls, but I'm
trying to get a group together, if there's enough interest.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rvbildr(at)juno.com |
| Subject: | Underfloor Insulation |
Has anyone installed insulation under the baggage compartment or seat
area floors? If so, what type and what thickness? Thanks. Mal
rvbildr(at)juno.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6Pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
I think that should be- you DESIGN it, you spec it. I'll stick with the
recomended numbers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
| Subject: | Sheet Metal Classes |
I second this. I got a practice kit from Orndorff's ($45 with the video
- can probably skip this if you do it with a current/past builder and
save $15, but there are some good general tips on it), then went to Ed
Cole's, using his tools and getting direction. I think Mitch did this
too.
I built the kit in 5-6 hours. The next weekend my wife and I went back
and spent another 2 hours just drilling, dimpling, riveting/bucking, and
drilling out rivets (even the good ones). This is something I recommend
you do if you're just a dreamer at this point too - don't expect to stay
that way afterwards though =) . You'll find out how fun it is (or
isn't, for you perhaps).
I'm sure the classes are great, and a lot of fun. If you have the time
and don't mind spending the extra $200, go for it. But IMHO they aren't
necessary by any means, even if you've never bucked a rivet.
Hope this helps!
EB #80131
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 01-09-97 FROM SMTPGATE (mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com)
You'd be very lucky if someone can compare the two, not too many people
have gone to both! When I was checking into something like this
initially (since I'd never worked with sheet metal either) I was told it
would be helpful, if I hadn't used tools much.
I think if you can find another builder in your area, most would be glad
to have you over and show you the basics in about an hour. Let you
drill, debur, dimple, hit the scotchbrite wheel, and squeeze some
rivets. I happened to join a local EAA chapter on the night they had a
hands-on session of just that. Then I put the money I would have spent
on a sheet metal course towards tools!
--------------------- cut here
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
>----------
>From:
> aol.com!RFierb6707(at)matronics.com[SMTP:aol.com!RFierb6707(at)matronics.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 11:30 AM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Sheet Metal Classes
>
>
>Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander Sportair?
> How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
> Soon to order
>RV6 Tail Kit
> Rob
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills) |
| Subject: | Re: North Texas RV's |
Bill,
Stop! You are going to make me wish I lived in Texas rather than SoCal.
Mike Wills
RV-4(wings)
willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AveryTools(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Classes |
Gene,
Hows it going, hows my jig. Yes we are still doing the classes here in Ft
Worth, Tx. People can call me are Averys its all the same class and price one
class I teach and the next Marten Sutter teachs. keep in touch ....George
Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | caummisa(at)arn.net (Richard Caummisar) |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
It seems to me that the new legislation that was written to allow
GA manufacturers to begin building again should also help
"manufacturers" of experimental A/C, specifically, the limit of libility to
12 years after manufacture.
p.s. I'm not a lawyer either.
Tooling up for 6A.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Trim tab movement... |
I'm just finishing up the installation of electric trim in my previously
manual trim elevator (what a chore...hint: don't follow Van's instructions,
look at the drawings and use your head).
I searched the archives regarding trim sensitivity, and some stated that
lengthening the trim tab horn (i.e. higher from the hinge point) might be a
good idea. However, I could not find anything on somebody actually having
done it and posting the results.
I have the servo mounted, and have this really nice pre-fabricated manual
trim horn which is longer than the electric (and which I don't have to
fabricate ).
Should I try it? What total movement do I need?
Thanks,
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Tennison" <jtennison.cmrl(at)Veda.com> |
charset=US-ASCII
12 years liability for GA manufacturers?!
I believe its 18 years.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
My trim tab movement on my RV-4 is 14 degrees This is the difference between
solo flight full fuel and maximum aft c.g. flight
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash) |
| Subject: | Re: Underfloor Insulation |
>>=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: rvbildr(at)juno.com
>>
>>Has anyone installed insulation under the baggage compartment or seat
>>area floors? If so, what type and what thickness? Thanks. Mal
>>rvbildr(at)juno.com
>>
Ah-Hah! A prime candidate for reading "How to Soundproof The Light
Aircraft" booklet! It's free for the asking!
This "HOW TO" manual is written for the aircraft mechanic, but is
simple enough for the plane owner. Covers soundproofing materials,
application and fire safety, FAA regulations, sources, etc. get a
text file of it (no illustrations) by return e-mail from our MAILBOT:
soundprf(at)pdsig.com =20
with "Booklet" in the text message. Or send your name and address to
me for a free hard copy by return US mail.
bill nash
AIRCRAFT REMANUFACTURING=20
1291 E.Vista Way, #150
VISTA, CA. 92084 (619) 749 0239 FAX: 749 6384
Sales Directory: Infobot(at)pdsig.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash) |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Liability Story |
>>=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: =
RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
>>
snip
>>I think the point that was made of limiting the possibility of =
litigation is=20
>>extremely valid. There are simply no rules in tort litigations. If the =
jury=20
>>is convinced that the widow and orphans have been wronged, you will =
surely=20
>>pay. If the heirs have easy access or deep pockets, you can win the =
lawsuit=20
>>and still come away broke. Proposed veils of responsibility such as =
parting=20
>>out and incorporation of assets is of no value if a smooth talking =
lawyer=20
>>can sway a juries opinion his way.
>>
>>Oh for the days when we just went out behind the barn and duked it out.=
=20
>>Eric Henson
>>Dana Point, CA
>>ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com
I'd like to add to your point, (well made): the story as I remember
it about the "Quicky" kit mfg'rs out near Edwards (AFB, CA) some years
ago when two young guys, partners, first started mfg'ing the kit.
They sold one to a fat guy in Denver,. and even though he modified it
extensively, one hot day on the first flight after using ALL the
runway at Stapleton, he couldnt get it up except into ground effect,
went thrugh the fence with major damage to the plane, very little to
himself- LSS ( long story short): sued and won on the basis he had not
been properly advised that the lawn mower engine powered plastic
plane would not take-off at over 5000' field elevation with an
overweight pilot, got a judgement and had the quicky owners home sold
to satisfy it.
You ARE within your rights to try to protect yourself and your family
against this type of ludicrous litigation. Maybe nothing you do will
work but it will sure slow them up. In my original post, I failed to
mention to have the buyer also sign a limit of liabilty: that is to
agree that if he should ever sue and win, the judgement can't be for
more that the value of the plane.... That should slow the attorneys
down even more. (Not legal advice mind you! Don't want any attorney
mad at me!). Send email to our auto-responder infobot(at)pdsig.com for
lots of jokes about attorneys! (Naw, just kidding!)
Bill Nash
AIRCRAFT REMANUFACTURING=20
1291 E.Vista Way, #150
VISTA, CA. 92084 (619) 749 0239 FAX: 749 6384
Sales Directory: Infobot(at)pdsig.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
| Subject: | Aircraft Liability (Chatter) |
Any problem with having the buyer signing a contract for X years (where
X = 18 minus the year the aircraft was certified), where the buyer
insures the builder against liability? Seems to me that would eliminate
even defense costs.
EB
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 01-10-97 FROM SMTPGATE @MAILMN (bjnash(at)connectnet.com)
>>=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: =
RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
>>
snip
>>I think the point that was made of limiting the possibility of =
litigation is=20
>>extremely valid. There are simply no rules in tort litigations. If the =
jury=20
>>is convinced that the widow and orphans have been wronged, you will =
surely=20
>>pay. If the heirs have easy access or deep pockets, you can win the =
lawsuit=20
>>and still come away broke. Proposed veils of responsibility such as =
parting=20
>>out and incorporation of assets is of no value if a smooth talking =
lawyer=20
>>can sway a juries opinion his way.
>>
>>Oh for the days when we just went out behind the barn and duked it out.=
=20
>>Eric Henson
>>Dana Point, CA
>>ehenson(at)cldwell.attmail.com
I'd like to add to your point, (well made): the story as I remember
it about the "Quicky" kit mfg'rs out near Edwards (AFB, CA) some years
ago when two young guys, partners, first started mfg'ing the kit.
They sold one to a fat guy in Denver,. and even though he modified it
extensively, one hot day on the first flight after using ALL the
runway at Stapleton, he couldnt get it up except into ground effect,
went thrugh the fence with major damage to the plane, very little to
himself- LSS ( long story short): sued and won on the basis he had not
been properly advised that the lawn mower engine powered plastic
plane would not take-off at over 5000' field elevation with an
overweight pilot, got a judgement and had the quicky owners home sold
to satisfy it.
You ARE within your rights to try to protect yourself and your family
against this type of ludicrous litigation. Maybe nothing you do will
work but it will sure slow them up. In my original post, I failed to
mention to have the buyer also sign a limit of liabilty: that is to
agree that if he should ever sue and win, the judgement can't be for
more that the value of the plane.... That should slow the attorneys
down even more. (Not legal advice mind you! Don't want any attorney
mad at me!). Send email to our auto-responder infobot(at)pdsig.com for
lots of jokes about attorneys! (Naw, just kidding!)
Bill Nash
AIRCRAFT REMANUFACTURING=20
1291 E.Vista Way, #150
VISTA, CA. 92084 (619) 749 0239 FAX: 749 6384
Sales Directory: Infobot(at)pdsig.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
<< Cost is $195.00 including tax / shipping and an installation guide.
Per Tracy, the fairings are aircraft grade epoxy/fiberglass and should not
have the typical shrinking problems that polyester resin products do. >>
Sounds good. I have recent and vivid memories of November nights hunched
over the gear legs making one-off epoxy-foam-glass gear leg fairings for the
-6A. I would recommend this activity for anyone currently serving time in
prison and hoping to gain early release through hard labor. At times it
seemed the more I worked on them the less they resembled what I was after. I
made one fatal mistake (besides doing all the sanding by hand): using an
expanding insulation foam inside the metal factory fairing piece as a
starting point (male mold). That foam continues to expand for weeks if
applied in a thick section, which allows it to lift huge welts and blebs in
slow-curing epoxy layups. It would have been comical if it weren't so
endless.
<>
Ah, but if he DID sell you the intersection fairings, you would lose the
opportunity to master yet another non-aluminum building medium: modeling
clay! Hey, you wouldn't want to pass that up, would you?
Bill Boyd
SportAV8R(at)aol.com
That epoxy's almost cured now; it's been six weeks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Hitchings" <wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
----------
> r.acker wrote : " I'm just finishing up the installation of electric
trim in my previously
> manual trim elevator (what a chore...hint: don't follow Van's
instructions,
> look at the drawings and use your head) ..."
Page 8-17 of the manual reflects the "desired" travel as being 35 and 25
degrees. I have just finished building a pre-punched empennage, and on
checking the travel of the electric trim tab , found : max. nose-up travel
is 23 degrees, and max down-nose travel is 22 degrees. The limiting factor
seems to be the MAC 8A servo.
I faxed VAN's about this; I quote their reply in full : "No Problem".
Rob, let us all know which of the two systems you prefer; a couple of
wannabe's in this neck of the woods are debating which system is "better".
Brian Hitchings
RV-6A, Emp complete, replying to email to assuage withdrawal symptoms while
waiting for wing kit to arrive.
wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougb(at)mail.diac.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Builders Groups? (Rocky Mtn RVators) |
Howdy,
PLEASE SEND ANY REPLYS DIRECTLY TO dougb(at)mail.diac.com
I help edit the newsletter for and organize the "Rocky Mountain RVators".
We are a group of about 100+ active and 200+ overall builders in Colorado
and nearby states. I would like to hear about other builders groups
in the country/world and I will post the entire list of all heard from
groups in a month or so.
The builders groups are an excellent way to find help, a friend, someone
to buck a rivet or two. The groups provide more help than the normal EAA
chapter can for RV builders. Currently our group holds meetings on an
irregular basis, publish a newsletter 4 or 5 times a year, sponsor a GREAT
flying in September, and purchase tools for the group to borrow. All of this
with $5/yr dues. Well we buy the tools when someone turns their finder fee
from Van to the group, usually it's the buyer who directs the $100 bucks to
the group.
Van's helps when we have questions, or have a request like,"Bill how would
like to fly over to Colorado for a weekend?"
So bottom line is.
I would like to hear from you if you belong to a buildersgroup,
If you contribute to the group.
If you used the group only when you needed help and the heck with it after
the plane was flying?
Did you continue to attend gatherings and help folks after the plane flew?
What do you want from a builders group?
Do you need help starting a builders group?
Any other comments...
REMEMBER.......
PLEASE SEND ANY REPLYS DIRECTLY TO dougb(at)mail.diac.com
Thanks in advance,
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A N399DB
Denver, CO
dougb(at)mail.diac.com (home)
dougb(at)rvator.denver.sgi.com (work)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fastback rv-3 |
>>
>I was just reading the October 93 RVator and there is a photo of
>Pete Ward's RV-3. Does anyone know about this fastback modification
>or how to contact Mr. Ward?
A Peter Ward with an RV-3 lives in Vancouver Washington! Bill.
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TESTPYLOT(at)aol.com |
Well looks like I was able to push Mr. internets buttons!! Eric was right i
spend all of my time building and helping others build. I can't spell worth
beans so you'll have to live with it, and type even worse. Rob about the
lowering of the seat ribs. That is something I didn"t do. I felt at 210 lbs
it might be a good idea to keep what little rib there is. I did raise the
canopy as high as it would go with 1/4 inch spacers under the roll bar.
Careful positioning is critical here. I measured mine and I have aprox.
40.5 inchs at the head. This works good for me leaving me about an 1 to 1.5
inches clearance and good forward visibility. (sliding canopy)
As far as the trim go's I made the trim horn just big enough to allow the
full travel of the servo, aprox. 16 deg. both ways . I know that is more
trim than I would ever need. This is one of those things I will want to play
with when I am flying.
After seeing numerous cowls with rivets that are moving around enough to
crack the paint I'v decided to put a layer of 4oz glass over them. This is a
real pain but i feel it will be worth it in the long run. I also used JB
weld on every rivet and hinge on the cowl. Note: JB weld sticks to
polyester excellent.
Happy building Werner PS sorry about the caps
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4131rb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
To whom it may concern,
I installed the mach trim sys on my 4 and it works great. I installed the
horn the same way vans shows on his installation kit. I cant give the exact
travel but I can say its quite a bit more than I need at any loading. I have
also done a couple of mods to two other RV4s that had the manual trim, no
complaints. It is posible to use the existing horn however the installation
becomes more difficult. I found it easier to drill off the existing horn ,
fill holes with rivets, and install a new horn.
Ryan RV4131RB(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
IMHO, VNE is indicated airspeed. Perhaps Mr. Anders 258 was true air speed
at altitude ?
RVator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Liability Question |
>
>My $0.02.
>
>- Mark (RV-8 or S-51 fence-sitter)
Dear my $0.02,
As several other procrastinators have written, get started now, because
when you finally finish and fly it, you will wish you had started sooner so
you could have finished sooner. Life is not slowing down while sit and
wait. Now about your choices: I can't say anything about the S-51, but
even though the -8 is a new product, it is from a company with a good track
record, you can pretty well predict what it will cost in todays $ if you
are honest about what you want to put in it, and you will have a lot of
building company, with over 250 tail kits shipped since Sun 'n Fun '96.
Bill (the more you fly these machines, the more you appreciate them).
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Tell me, in the US if a company owns the RV, can you still claim the
'Repairman's Cert.'or what ever it is called?
No problem with the owner(the company) not building 51%??
Just curious.
Royce Craven
roycec(at)ozemail.com.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
Given the following conditions:
OAT: 0 Cel
Press Alt: 8000
TAS: 258 mph
IAS: ~228 mph
This is still above designer Vne, although not by much.
David in Dallas
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
<< The wide chord, reflexed trailing edge gear leg fairing used by, among
others, Dave Anders on his 258MPH 360 powered RV-4 is now available from:
Tracy Saylor
P.O. Box 856
Santa Paula, CA 93060
(805)933-8225
Cost is $195.00 including tax / shipping and an installation guide.
(snip)
I have ordered a set and will post a note when I get them installed.
Dan Helm
mt. View CA
RV-4 3696
>>
Hi All,
I am installing a set on my RV-3, right after I get the Lightning Speed wheel
pants installed over the Lamb Tires on my 5x5 wheels.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A 2 blade Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
Lyc, O-290-G 3 blade Ivoprop RV-3 N??? White Ghost??
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Classes |
> Can anyone recomend the Basic Sheet Metal course given by Alexander
Sportair?
> How about the classes given by Avery Tool? Which one is better? Thanks
> Soon to
> order
> RV6 Tail Kit
> Rob
Rob,
I attended the Avery class, taught by Martin Sutter at Avery's store. It was
a very good class. I was fortunate enough to be the only student during that
session, so I got a LOT of individual attention. During the course one
builds a sample control surface. This same sample control surface is
included in Van's quickbuild kit, so I now have a pair of them.
I heartily recommend the Avery course.
Tim Lewis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
>
>Page 8-17 of the manual reflects the "desired" travel as being 35 and 25
>degrees.
Well, there's the problem...I don't have a page 8-17! But based on your cue
I perused the quickbuild manual...sure enough page Q9-9 had this info. When
all else fails RTFM .
>Rob, let us all know which of the two systems you prefer; a couple of
>wannabe's in this neck of the woods are debating which system is "better".
Unfortunately, I won't know which is better until I fly (i've only flown the
manual trim before). I ordered the manual trim elevators with my quickbuild
kit...decided on electric trim later.
>
>Brian Hitchings
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q Project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last updated 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 photos)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine, prop and governor prices: Van's vs others |
I'm getting ready to start my canopy, so I guess I need to order an engine
(Van's quotes 3/4 months for engines/prop delivery). I've decided to go with
an O-360A1A engine (listed at 18,900, probably more now), The
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7888A-4 constant speed prop listed in the Van's catalog ($4180),
and a Woodward governor ($1200).
It's my impression that Van's prices are the best available. Does anybody
have any information to the contrary?
Thanks,
Tim Lewis
TimRV6A(at)aol.com
RV0-6AQ #60023, finishing controls/brakes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca (joehine) |
Hi Guys.
I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
best to rectify the situation.
This week I reinstalled the canopy on my 4 to do the final preparations
for painting the metal parts on the outside and discovered that even though
it was covered with sheets while I painted the wings, I have a fine mist of
overspray on the inside of the front of the plexiglass. What would be the
best method of removing this without imparting scratches on the plexi?? I
THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and I
don't have any scraps from the building left to test. This is a very fine
misting but is very noticeable when sitting in the cockpit.
Any thoughts
Thanks in advance
joe
C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK) |
| Subject: | Internet Message |
YOU WROTE: "...He checked with EAA HQ.
They said that to their knowledge no EAA'er has ever been sued.
The main reason is lawyers want to go after someone with deep
pockets and most
home builders don't qualify. Also, the aircraft is clearly
licensed as "Experimental"
on the paperwork and on the aircraft so I think any jury would
clearly realize that
the buyer knew they were buying an expermental aircraft."
I CLEARLY REMEMBER READING, ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, ABOUT A LAWYER WHO
BOUGHT A FLYING HYPERBIPE AND SOME TIME LATER WAS KILLED OR SERIOUSLY
INJURED IN A STALL/SPIN ACCIDENT (IN THE TRAFFIC PATTERN). HE OR HIS
ESTATE SUED AND WON A SIZEABLE JUDGEMENT, ON THE BASIS THAT NO ONE
TOLD HIM IT WASN'T A DOCILE AIRPLANE.
GEORGE KILISHEK
RV-8 WINGS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Hatwell <hatters(at)overvne.demon.co.uk> |
Does anyone now the address, phone number, email address of
Midwest Avionics
I think they are in Idaho
Can reply to me direct at
RV4 3181 progressing slowly!!! but it is progressing.
--
Rob Hatwell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RodWoodard(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
> I intend to keep my RV for a long time and maybe the legal system will
> improve before I have to sell.
>
Sorry folks, I've just got to jump in on this one... This isn't meant to be a
flame directed at the person who posted the snippet quoted above. His views
are wide spread.
The legal **system** for all it's faults, does not give out huge **jury**
awards. Juries do. Period. IMHO, the large jury awards we are seeing these
days are a reflection of society's tendancy to shirk personal responsibility
in favor of blaming somebody else.
I'll give a concrete example of how juries (aka citizens) can affect
litigation: It's a well-known fact among personal injury and medical
malpractice lawyers here in northern Colorado that if you go to trial in
Larimer County you'll have a tough time getting the conservative citizens of
the jury to award anything at all, let along a McDonalds-type gift. However,
if you can somehow get the case in Boulder County.... well then, now you've
got a chance for big bucks. We northern Colorado folks describe Boulder,
Colorado as 30 square miles surrounded by reality. :-) The translation: You'd
better have a real and honest claim before you take a case to trial in
Larimer County. And even if you have a legitimate claim, don't plan to get
rich off it.
My point is that these awards are being made by a **jury** of our peers. Yes,
lawyers take the cases and yes, they are paid for their services. And yes,
all lawyers could band together and decide not to take these cases, but then
the lawyers would probably get sued for discriminating or disbarred for
failing to represent the public. This is a problem that was created by our
society and must be solved by changing the way members of our society view
and accept/reject personal responsibility for their actions.
Yep, I'm a lawyer, but no, I generally don't do personal injury cases and I
don't do medical malpractice cases. I'm basically your divorce, real estate,
corporate and estate planning type of guy. And I'm now wearing my asbestos
"flame ready" jumpsuit.
Rod Woodard
Loveland, Colorado
RV-8, #80033
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Lewis <lewy(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Internet Message |
> YOU WROTE: "...He checked with EAA HQ.
> They said that to their knowledge no EAA'er has ever been sued.
> The main reason is lawyers want to go after someone with deep
> pockets and most
> home builders don't qualify. Also, the aircraft is clearly
> licensed as "Experimental"
> on the paperwork and on the aircraft so I think any jury would
> clearly realize that
> the buyer knew they were buying an expermental aircraft."
> > home builders don't qualify.
Todays homebuilders are not the same by any stretch of the imagination.
Used to be homebuilders couldn't afford spam cans anyway so home grown
was the thing to do. Take a look at your "homebuilder" today. For the
most part they rarely scrounge for parts but make difficult decisions
about like which engine package to buy, the $18,000. one or the $30,000.
one. They even make Kit package purchases rather than materials
packages. I think most have more money that some of us only wish we had.
But wish'en is fun too.
--
Just an opinion mindya
Starduster SA-100 O-320E2D
Rally 2B (2B restored someday)
Ultra-Light helicopter 50% (still)
Using Vortech blades(Adams-Wilson Variant)
Want a Tailwind (someday)
lewy(at)pacbell.net
__________|__________
\ \_0_/ /
__\___(_+_)___/__
|/ \|
|...........................|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Lewis <lewy(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
>
> THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and I
> don't have any scraps from the building left to test.
Definitely -> DON"T <- use MEK ,methyl ethyl ketone!
--
Just an opinion mindya
Starduster SA-100 O-320E2D
Rally 2B (2B restored)
Ultra-Light helicopter 50% (still)
Using Vortech blades(Adams-Wilson Variant)
Want a Tailwind
lewy(at)pacbell.net
__________|__________
\ \_0_/ /
__\___(_+_)___/__
|/ \|
|...........................|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twood <woodfam(at)aloha.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
>
>
>> I intend to keep my RV for a long time and maybe the legal system will
>> improve before I have to sell.
>>
>
>Sorry folks, I've just got to jump in on this one... This isn't meant to be a
>flame directed at the person who posted the snippet quoted above. His views
>are wide spread.
>
>The legal **system** for all it's faults, does not give out huge **jury**
>awards. Juries do. SNIP
Right
>My point is that these awards are being made by a **jury** of our peers.
Wrong
These juries are not our peer. The juries are constructed by lawyers out of
idiots. Can you spell O.J.? We would be far better served by a "system"
that picked juries at random. Or by professional juries that can actually
understand the issues being presented.
Terray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TESTPYLOT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
This is bad and thiners are really bad
This is what I would try if it was me.
1 First a good palstic cleaner like mirror glaze #17 with very light rubbing
pressure
if that doesn't do the trick a little more presure
2 A polish like mirror glaze #10 again with light pressure.
A really soft towel is a must.
Good luck and let us know how is works out.
RV6A builder Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com> |
Joe,
I have used both white gas (Coleman fuel) and mineral spirits for cleaning my
6A canopy, without any problems (try on inconspicuous area such as below
fairing, if you have any doubts). If that does't remove the overspray, I
would try a good plastic polish that has some scratch removing qualities (I
use surplus military stuff, out of date, but works great). Do not use
acetone, MEK, or lacquer thinner, for sure.
Les Williams
RV-6AQME #60027 (tip-up), working on wings, will do fuselage later
RV-6A #20299 completed 4/92, sold 10/95
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4131rb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
Joe,
I may get some negative feed back on this, but I did the same thing.
Accetone worked well for me. I found it removed the overspray and didnt
distort the canopy or melt it. If you decide to try this do it in the back
somewhere along the canopy frame first where it wont be noticeable, then when
you have the confidence it works you can move into the visible areas.
Ryan RV4131rb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The use of Loctite (or anything new) |
Hal Kempthorne wrote:
>
>
> If Loctite came out with a new product that fastened more reliably than safety
> wire and was only released by touching with a special tool while uttering a
> password, it would not be acceptable to aviation community for at least twenty
> years.
>
> In high tech, they call this the "technology transfer problem". . .(snip)
---------------------------------
What about GPS, Hal? Thousands of handhelds were being used in the
cockpit YEARS BEFORE the satelite system was truely funtional (a total
of 24 satelites in use). And the IFR certified King unit was available
BEFORE the GPS system was even completed!! (24 sats plus 3 spares).
Research is continuing to find a suitable substitute for Freon/Halon
fire extinguishers. The instant it is invented, you can bet aviation
won't wait 20 years to use it.
BTW, Matt's algorythm is working so well I don't even have to sign my
name anymore! Thanx Matt.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Yep, the traffic is down and I thought it was kinda of nice. Only 24
messages today - so far. And some listers think that is slow!!
BTW, It just like Bob Skinner to be "PRIMING" the pump :-).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Daniel Houlton wrote:
>
>
> Brian Hitchings wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed 9 Jan 1997 Bill Nash wrote : "I'm no attorney and this definately
> > isn't legal advice, but:
> > > This is why many owners of a homebuilt will part out the aircraft,
> > > even though it's flying ..."
> >
> > I am an attorney practising in Aviation Law in South Africa. I must say
> > that, cetainly as far as South African law is concerned, the scheme
> > described by Bill to limit one's liability is fraught with difficulty. We
> > have a maxim, which I'm sure applies in the USA, that the law looks not so
> > much at what people say they are doing, as to what they are in fact doing.
> > In Bill's example, (if I understand it properly) the idea is to sell a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > flying aircraft to the purchaser, but to describe the aircraft as "parts".
> > The real, as opposed to declared, intention of the parties is to buy and
> > sell an aircraft. I think that any Court would see through the charade,
>
> That's not quite what I got out of it. My impression is that the seller
> will break the aircraft up into several parts and sell these individual
> parts as "unairworthy" to several different people. Then the buyer (who
> may be one of those people), will buy all those parts from them. The
> buyer then takes the burden of making an airworthy aircraft from a bunch
> of parts.
>
> Now there's no reason to actually take the aircraft apart to give to
> all these different people. They could just buy the part with the
> intention of picking it up "next week", and then deciding to sell it
> to someone else instead and have them pick it up instead. The buyer
> picks them all up together.
>
> --Dan
Dan-
An attorney with a shark fin on his back would eat you alive
if you tried this. Liability laws in the hands of a ambulance
chaser ( no,not all attorneys are bad.I actually know a good one.)
can be a terrible thing. If you sell an airplane you built you
are open to a law suit.
CRAIG HIERS
N143CH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John McMahon <rv6(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Underfloor Insulation |
juno.com!rvbildr(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone installed insulation under the baggage compartment or seat
> area floors? If so, what type and what thickness? Thanks. Mal
> rvbildr(at)juno.com
H.B.aircraft sells a good insulation kit.
There number is 615-452-8743
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John McMahon <rv6(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Underfloor Insulation |
John McMahon wrote:
>
> juno.com!rvbildr(at)matronics.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Has anyone installed insulation under the baggage compartment or seat
> > area floors? If so, what type and what thickness? Thanks. Mal
> > rvbildr(at)juno.com
> H.B.aircraft sells a good insulation kit.
> There number is 615-452-8743
615-452-8742
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bud Newhall <bud(at)softcom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
Joe,
If you want to be sure about what you use on your canopy go to the
hardware store and buy some plexiglass. Put a peice in a container and
soak in stuff for a few days to see what happens.
I've used naptha (same as white gas) on mine with no problems. This
stuff is pretty mild as solvents go, so may not cut the overspray.
Bud Newhall
RV-6 Flying
--
__|__
__|__ ____(+)____
____(+)____ ' '
' '
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash) |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
>>=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: Jim Lewis
>>> THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try =
and I
>>> don't have any scraps from the building left to test.=20
>>>>Definitely -> DON"T <- use MEK ,methyl ethyl ketone!
>>--=20
>> Just an opinion mindya
>
>> lewy(at)pacbell.net =20
Joe,
I may get some negative feed back on this, but I did the same thing.
Accetone worked well for me. I found it removed the overspray and
didnt
distort the canopy or melt it
You Guys on the list:
=46or what it's worth, we restored a lot of planes and one time I asked
the guys we get plexiglas windshields from: "What causes that
yellow/orangy tint/fog in these windows?"=20
Reply: "Cleaning the plexiglas with anything other than alcohol. The
effect takes some time to show up". He said gasoline was the worst.
Bill Nash
BTW: Dri-Clean will take out small scratches in the plexiglas and
leave a protective coating that last for months. If that has been in
place, the overspray would have wiped right off! (It is NOT silicon
based!). Great for washing ur plane without water, too! More detailed
info from the auto responder at dri-clean(at)pdsig.com Hope this helps.
Bill Nash
AIRCRAFT REMANUFACTURING=20
1291 E.Vista Way, #150
VISTA, CA. 92084 (619) 749 0239 FAX: 749 6384
Aviation Sales Directory: Infobot(at)pdsig.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ve7fp(at)jetstream.net (Ken Hoshowski) |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
----------
> From: joehine <nbnet.nb.ca!joehine(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Overspray!!!
> Date: Saturday, January 11, 1997 9:57 AM
>
>
> Hi Guys.
>
> I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
> best to rectify the situation.
>
> This week I reinstalled the canopy on my 4 to do the final
preparations
> for painting the metal parts on the outside and discovered that even
though
> it was covered with sheets while I painted the wings, I have a fine mist
of
> overspray on the inside of the front of the plexiglass. What would be
the
> best method of removing this without imparting scratches on the plexi??
I
> THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and
I
> don't have any scraps from the building left to test. This is a very
fine
> misting but is very noticeable when sitting in the cockpit.
>
> Any thoughts
>
> Thanks in advance
> joe
> C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
>
> joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
> 506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
> 506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
>
JOE, try using some good old fashioned drug store variety rubbing alcohol.
Ken ve7fp(at)jetstream.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Jordan <ace(at)pacifier.com> |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFFEC.B50837C0
Try Meguiar's "Mirror Glaze" (MGH-10) plastic polish/cleaner. I've used =
it for years on plastics and windshields on motorcycles, snowmobiles, =
airplanes, etc. Inexpensive and can be found at any store that sells =
automotive products/cleaners.=20
----------
From: joehine[SMTP:nbnet.nb.ca!joehine(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 9:57 AM
Subject: RV-List: Overspray!!!
=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca (joehine)
Hi Guys.
I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
best to rectify the situation.
This week I reinstalled the canopy on my 4 to do the final =
preparations
for painting the metal parts on the outside and discovered that even =
though
it was covered with sheets while I painted the wings, I have a fine mist =
of
overspray on the inside of the front of the plexiglass. What would be =
the
best method of removing this without imparting scratches on the plexi?? =
I
THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and =
I
don't have any scraps from the building left to test. This is a very =
fine
misting but is very noticeable when sitting in the cockpit.
Any thoughts
Thanks in advance
joe
C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St. =20
506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFFEC.B50837C0--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine, prop and governor prices: Van's vs others |
> It's my impression that Van's prices are the best available. Does anybody
> have any information to the contrary?
I checked everywhere I could think of, and I couldn't find a new 0-320-D1A
for anywhere near what Van's sells them for.
Ed Bundy RV6A flying - about 45 hours now (but having too much fun to go to
the paint shop)
Eagle, ID
ebundy2620(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott) |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
joehine wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys.
>
> I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
> best to rectify the situation.
>
> This week I reinstalled the canopy on my 4 to do the final preparations
> for painting the metal parts on the outside and discovered that even though
> it was covered with sheets while I painted the wings, I have a fine mist of
> overspray on the inside of the front of the plexiglass. What would be the
> best method of removing this without imparting scratches on the plexi?? I
> THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and I
> don't have any scraps from the building left to test. This is a very fine
> misting but is very noticeable when sitting in the cockpit.
>
> Any thoughts
>
> Thanks in advance
> joe
> C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
>
> joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
> 506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
> 506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
I tried some thinner on some plastic (I think plastic) vents and it
immediately hazed and crazed them. Good luck on it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott) |
| Subject: | underdriven rivets |
Exactly what are the dangers of underdriven rivets, especially in an
important piece such as the wing spar? I have heard many times that you
shouldn't have any, but never a good reason why. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
joehine wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys.
>
> I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
> best to rectify the situation.
>
> This week I reinstalled the canopy on my 4 to do the final preparations
> for painting the metal parts on the outside and discovered that even though
> it was covered with sheets while I painted the wings, I have a fine mist of
> overspray on the inside of the front of the plexiglass. What would be the
> best method of removing this without imparting scratches on the plexi?? I
> THINK that thinners will not harm the plexi, but am reluctant to try and I
> don't have any scraps from the building left to test. This is a very fine
> misting but is very noticeable when sitting in the cockpit.
>
> Any thoughts
>
> Thanks in advance
> joe
When I got my RV-6 back from the paint shop I noticed that there was
some overspray on the canopy, when I asked the professional aircraft
painter how best to get it off he said use acetone, I found this
hard to believe but when I tried it it worked great, then use your
favorite plastic polish to get a nice sparkling finnish.
I am asumeing that the RV-4's uses the same material to make the
canopy as the -6. BTW what are some of your favorite plastic
cleaners? I like Pledge myself.
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
RV-List message posted by: RodWoodard(at)aol.com
(much snipped)
> The legal **system** for all it's faults, does not give out huge **jury**
> awards. Juries do. Period. IMHO, the large jury awards we are seeing these
> days are a reflection of society's tendancy to shirk personal responsibility
> in favor of blaming somebody else.
My point is that these awards are being made by a **jury** of our peers.
Rod Woodard
------------------------------------------------
And the counterpoint is - juries are NOT our peers.
There are more than 654,000 active pilots in the US out of 233 million citizens.
That is about
360 to one. (Maybe cut that number in half? if you only consider people of legal
age). Not very
good odds for getting a pilot on the jury. Further, even if one was lucky to get
a pilot into the
jury pool the pilot would be quickly expelled by the plaintif for being too knowlegable
about
issues to come up during the trial. And that is the crux of the problem. Many
of these trials
introduce technical issues to a group of people who 75% of them can't even change
the washer in
their sink faucet. Ask the other 25% what a 1/4-20 (6-1.0mm for our meteric friends)
is and you
would draw a blank stare (including the judge)! I have been on three juries in
25 years and only
one member (a carpenter) knew how to change the spark plugs in his car.
The classic accident of the piper cub, with the photographer, was simply caused
by the
personality and intelect of the victim. However, Piper was sued based on a DESIGN
FLAW supposedly
created in the 30's. A very complex issue, to be judged by a group of people who
cannot grasp the
concept of CG yet were swayed to believe that poor visibility out of a tail dragger
was
enherently evil.
When you consider the potential reward can be a few million dollars (for the laywer)!
This is an
incredibly powerful force. How can you protect yourself from that kind of motivation?
You can't.
In all fairness, we hear about the most egregious cases. Many times outlandish
amounts are
significantly lowered by the judge or an appeal. But these don't make for good
press so you
never hear the "reasonable" conclusion to ligitation.
There are sound points for both sides of the argument. What realy counts is the
effect on
society. When I see 2 pages of safety notes to operate an iron!, 7 safety degals
on a ladder, 2
small pages of safety notes on my cordless drill, and a dead-man kill switch, a
remote-start-pull-cord (to keep your toes away from the blade) and 4 safety degals
on a new
lawnmower - I think the societal effect of the present legal system becomes evident.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | wbpace(at)adnc.com (Bill Pace) |
| Subject: | Sheet Metal Classes |
>
[snip]
>
>I'm sure the classes are great, and a lot of fun. If you have the time
>and don't mind spending the extra $200, go for it. But IMHO they aren't
>necessary by any means, even if you've never bucked a rivet.
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>EB #80131
>
It's true, you don't need any metal experience to start. I first read Ron
Wattanja's book "Kitplane Construction" for some basic info. Then I drove
a few rivets at the metalworking shop at Oshkosh in 1994.
Except for some long forgotten instruction in Wood/Metal shop in junior
high some 25 years or so ago, (of which the only thing I remember is that
we _scored_ the metal with scratch awls to mark it), that's it. A couple
of months later I ordered right Van's tail kit and jumped right in.
Everything I learned, I learned on that tail kit, on my own, from George's
tapes and some books. I learned, but I screwed up about $200 in parts at
various stages of the process. I had to replace all of the HS rear spar
components (spar channel, flange strips and hinge brackets), the rudder
skin and maybe some miscellaneous small parts. Not bad for being
self-taught but I would probably have saved some (but likely not all) of
this if I had had at least a weekend course. At the time, I think Van's
was still a whole week long and I just couldn't afford that much time off.
The moral of this story is that an education costs money. You can spend it
on an instructor or you can spend it on parts. In my case, it added up to
about the same (except perhaps for time wasted/time saved). Your mileage
may vary. The biggest problem that I have really had is the lack of
someone to mentor or advise me during those important jobs, like building
the wing spar (more on that in another post).
Two quick tips you might find useful:
1) When I rebuilt the rear HS spar, I attached the original (i.e. scrapped)
HS-412 brackets to my jig to attach to the new hinge brackets for
alignment. At about $2 each, this is a lot cheaper than the Avery
brackets. If Van's will sell you some extra ones, this can save you a few
bucks in jigging costs. (They may even be prepunched now).
2) If you're a wannbe who has never built before and you want a good
overview of what's involved, then run, don't walk, to you nearest aviation
book store and buy Kitplane Construction. It's an excellent primer for the
uninitiated. Lots of folks over in rec.aviation.homebuilt (back when it
was still a good group) gave Ron a lot of feedback while he was writing the
first revision and it shows. It might help you make the go/no go decision
as it did with me. I believe it is now out in it's second printing.
Sporty's has it for @22.95 in the Ownership & Mechanics books section.
[Disclaimer: I have no association or interest in either Sporty's or
Wanttaja. Well, I think I ordered something from Sporty's once or
twice...]
-----
Bill Pace The only expensive tool
wbpace(at)adnc.com is a cheap tool.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Bronson <70773.2700(at)CompuServe.COM> |
Hello Listers:
The discussion on kit sale liabilty has been interesting and informative.
However, IMHO, we are beginning to digress into a discussion of the merits, or
lack thereof, of our legal system and current legal climate. We, as builders
and potential sellers, would probably better serve ourselves if we returned our
focus to what we can do to eliminate (I wish!) or limit our exposure to
frivolous legal action. Note I said frivolous, because if you do a half-a**ed
job of putting one of these together and your buyer performs an airborne
disassembly while complying with the aircraft's limitations, you deserve to be
sued. Therefore, there's no way I can see that you can totally eliminate the
possibility of receiving unwanted legal attention.
What we need to focus on is what we can do to minimize exposure. So far the
only sure-fire methods I have seen, based on what I have read on the list, are:
a) keep the airplane, and/or
b) be broke.
Option (b) is all too easy to accomplish, and is sometimes related to option
(a).
More HO: I would like to hear from listers who have sold kit airplanes and would
be willing to share what steps they have taken. One problem here is that it's
kind of like asking: "exactly what king of security precations have you taken in
your house." We're not likely to find someone willing to share legal their
strategy over this party line. Who knows who might be listening?
Let's drop the legal debate and focus on potentially successful strategies. I
regret that I don't have any to share with you listers other than those above.
Now, which should I build: an RV-6 or an RV-8? (just kidding.)
Tim Bronson Pittsburgh, PA (freezing!) RV-8SP (Still Planning)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RSA-5 & prop gov |
<< Mark,
Thanks for meeting John and me at your shop this past week. We both
enjoyed the visit. I just got off the phone with Don at Airflow
Performance. He said he will overhaul my fuel servo unit for 250.00.
That's without yellow tag, which is what I was looking for. The other
guy's that I have talked to wanted 1000.00 to 1200.00. Thanks again for
saving me some bucks.
Louis Smith
lsmith(at)coastalnet.com >>
Fellas, and ladies:
I thought this post might interest some of you -8 builders, as that's what
Louis is also building.
Louis also got a prop gov from EMI for $325, w/o core. We've both got the
phone # for these folks. You may want to write him, or me, and ask about his
$70 oil cooler from TMR in California. The one on my bird keeps that 540 cool
enough.
Check six!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sburch(at)norfolk.infi.net (stan burchett) |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
>
>
>> I intend to keep my RV for a long time and maybe the legal system will
>> improve before I have to sell.
>>
>
>Sorry folks, I've just got to jump in on this one... This isn't meant to be a
>flame directed at the person who posted the snippet quoted above. His views
>are wide spread.
(snip)
>Yep, I'm a lawyer, but no, I generally don't do personal injury cases and I
>don't do medical malpractice cases. I'm basically your divorce, real estate,
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
Rod..Your claim that the system..not the lawyers, are at fault, is called
the 'blame game'. If your an honorable, non-malpractice non-personal injury
lawyer ..why do you attempt to defend them? Their reputation reflects
negatively on your profession. Your post fortifies the belief that you're
all unwilling or afraid to critisize bottom swimming colleagues.
Stan Burchett
Yorktown, VA
Mooney/-6a fus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
Hello everyone:
Can anyone please explain the difference regarding the RV-3/RV-3A.
Was this a wing modification only?
Can you tell by inspection after the wing is skinned?
Thank You.
David Shipman
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Random Vne changes?? |
<< I'm not saying that Van's *recommendations* should be taken lightly,
but still, these are experimentals and each one is one of a kind. You
build it, you spec it!
(snip)
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
>>
Hi All,
I realize it may only be my personal opinion, but when someone says "these
are experimentals", the red flags should be in the air. And by this, I am
suggesting that a little more caution is needed in what is being proposed.
Picking up a previous thread, I believe someone pointed out that the Harmon
Rocket II was the same wing as the RV, but had a much higher Vne.
In talking to a Harmon Rocket II builder/pilot, I was told that the HH II
wing is 9 inches shorter on each side. I believe the spar tip was cut by 9
inches, and the wing ribs were redistributed along the spar. This minor
change to the existing internal structure is a major change to the wing
structure load distribution, which would allow a higher Vne for this portion
of the aircraft.
I would suggest that a significant change to the Vne, gross weight, etc. be
looked at as a major change to the design, and the airworthiness certificate
identify that aircraft as something other than an RV.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca (joehine) |
| Subject: | Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:50:17 -0400 |
Hi again Listers
Thanks to all for the many responses to my "overspray" post over the last 36
hours. For what it is worth, I tried acteone this morning and it seemed to
work fine! I will now get one of the cleaner/polishers suggested to finish
the job.
What a great bank of knowledge this list is.
Thanks again to all who responded
joe
C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
<< Exactly what are the dangers of underdriven rivets, especially in an
important piece such as the wing spar? I have heard many times that you
shouldn't have any, but never a good reason why. Thanks. >>
They start out loose, and get looser. This is not considered a good
practice.
I have observed the spar rivets disappearing down into the drilled hole,
before the head starts to form on the top surface of the spar. (Long 1/8"
rivets on old style RV-3 spar.)
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 Maroon Marauder (Limited to 4.4 g's. No big deal, so
am I.)
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
<< Can anyone please explain the difference regarding the RV-3/RV-3A.
(snip)
David Shipman
>>
Hi All,
My original RV-3 has a 1" aluminum angle with 1/8" thickness through the
fuselage for the rear wing spar to attach with a 1/4" diameter bolt.
The RV-3A modification was to add a second 1/8" aluminum extrusion with
spacers so the wing rear spar was captured on both sides with the 1/4"
diameter bolt passing through all three pieces.
The RV-3's in-process, and the later kits, have a 1" aluminum angle with
3/16" thickness through the fuselage.
At a later date, the RV-3A designation was dropped.
At the rear spar attachment, look for a 3/16" aluminum angle at the fuselage,
or a 1/8" aluminum angle AND a 1/8" aluminum bar.
There was a thicker wing root center section rib added with a revision to the
wing walk area (the same as on the RV-4), but I think this was a separate
modification.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
| Subject: | Liability thread - STILL RV RELATED??? |
Somebody had some good flame bait along the way and hooked a big one!
Sorry guys, can we get back to RV's? If this is directly related to
RV's/Insurance/Selling liability, fine, but I think the thread is
straying way too far.
EB #80131
(Saving my legal system opinions for a rainy day at the airport)
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 01-12-97 FROM SMTPGATE @MAILMN (sburch(at)norfolk.infi.net)
>
>
>> I intend to keep my RV for a long time and maybe the legal system will
>> improve before I have to sell.
>>
>
>Sorry folks, I've just got to jump in on this one... This isn't meant to be a
>flame directed at the person who posted the snippet quoted above. His views
>are wide spread.
(snip)
>Yep, I'm a lawyer, but no, I generally don't do personal injury cases and I
>don't do medical malpractice cases. I'm basically your divorce, real estate,
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
Rod..Your claim that the system..not the lawyers, are at fault, is called
the 'blame game'. If your an honorable, non-malpractice non-personal injury
lawyer ..why do you attempt to defend them? Their reputation reflects
negatively on your profession. Your post fortifies the belief that you're
all unwilling or afraid to critisize bottom swimming colleagues.
Stan Burchett
Yorktown, VA
Mooney/-6a fus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Random Vne changes?? |
>
>I would suggest that a significant change to the Vne, gross weight, etc. be
>looked at as a major change to the design, and the airworthiness certificate
>identify that aircraft as something other than an RV.
That's an interesting comment. I have always felt that no two
experiemental aircraft are alike because there is no Quality Assurance or
Quality Control process that would tend to make them so.
Out of curiosity, is your LOM-powered RV-3 officially registered as an RV?
Using a previously untested airframe/powerplant combination certainly
sounds like a "major change" to me.
Regards,
DJ Molny
(no plane, no imminent plans, just lurking)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mikel(at)dimensional.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
> Rod..Your claim that the system..not the lawyers, are at fault......
WE are getting somewhat beyond the function of the list, here. Shall WE go
to another subject? There are other forums for this line of thought........
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Wiza" <joe(at)flnet.com> |
| Subject: | Scales/ElecFlaps |
Hi
Can anyone out there give me some info/phone #'S on small scales (mixing
small amounts of expoxy's etc) and Elec linear activators for flaps?
tu
joe/wings
joe(at)flnet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: Random Vne changes?? |
I realize it may only be my personal opinion, but when someone says
"these
are experimentals", the red flags should be in the air. And by this, I
am
suggesting that a little more caution is needed in what is being
proposed.
Interesting to note that in Canada, they are not considered as
"experimentals", instead they are "ameteur built".
I had put the stainless steel plate from Spruce on my '6 and was
snagged for having the word experimental on it...I had to paint it out!
Ken RV6A Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Scales/ElecFlaps |
Joe,
I made a set of scales from a piece of balsa stick using the 10:1ratio =
for Proseal and a 2:1ratio (two sticks used) for epoxies. I made little =
buckets for the ingredients with can caps that were hooked to the balsa =
stick with pieces of wire. To properly balance the balsa beam, I used =
lead on the short end. Just glued it to it. The large bucket was on the=
short end for the larger amount, the small bucket at the long end for =
the smaller if the
ingredients. I used the particle board scraps (the triangle pieces you =
throw away) from the "V" pieces I used to make the control surfaces as =
my balance stands so the fulcrum point would be at the top of the triangl=
e. A small piece of music wire served as the support for the balance poi=
nt.
For the 20:1 the short end is 2", the long end is 20". By the way, I =
used
balsa due to the weight. A ruler was just to heavy. Mine is a piece of =
half inch light balsa. Needless to say, it worked very well. I've built
my tanks using Proseal and got very good results with the mix. The
same with the epoxies using the smaller beam.
I hope this helps. It takes a little time to make; but, it's easy and =
cheap!
By the way, I almost have the wings done on mine. Boy, did I hate those
tanks.
Jim Sears
RV-6A #22220
stands
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Scales/ElecFlaps |
Go buy an electronic postal scale. They work great. Cost about $35. Look
at Office Depot
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com> |
Huw Williams
Stephen:
>Briefly, I am considering using the Digifly DU8GPS moving map engine and
>flight
>management system.
I am not familiar with the Digifly. Does it contain a built in GPS? Is it
IFR certified?
>From you comment re: the Garmin, I get the impression it does.
I am not sure that I would be comfortable with a single box which included
all my navigation, engine and flight management instruments. I'd be afraid
of a single point failure
>All this costs a lot of money and it seems to be the opinion that NAV
>units are not now required.
I have not flown in Europe for 35 years so cannot comment specifically, but
with GPS you do not need a NAV for a strictly VFR airplane in the US. It is
required for instrument flight.
>could you let me have a contact address AND fax number for RST. Probably
>the quickest way to get info or order from RST is to go to their web
>page http://www.rst-eng.com. I don't have their phone and fax number
>handy and would go to the same place to get them. If you don't have access
>come on back and I will get them for you.
>Finally, what suggestions have you for a Transponder and ELT - low price
>but good quality?
My choice for a transponder due to size, weight and cost would be the Terra
recently bought out by Trimble) unit. It only takes 1/2 the space of a
typical panel mount which means that it could be combined with a Terra Nav
or Terra Comm unit. That is very attractive to me and they make good stuff.
They have not been around as long as King and that may make a difference in
Europe as far as service goes. Almost any avionics shop can work on King,
but that may not be the case with Terra.
An ELT choice is not as clear cut. You can pay from $200-$2000 for an ELT
and they all provide basically the same function. They also vary greatly in
size, weight, installation and antenna configuration.
My personal choice will probably be the Dorne & Margolin EBC 502. It is
designed to be mounted within reach of the flight crew. It is totally self
contained, does not require a remote switch or an external antenna and if
it shoud go off accidentally you will hear it because it has an audible
alarm.
I also think that it offers a lot more safety than other units, because if
you go down and have time to get yourself out you can probably grab the
ELT. In addition, it will be a lot better protected by the steel cage of
the GS than if it was installed in the tail. Most others are installed back
there and it takes added time to extract them. Not good if the airplane is
on fire or heading for the bottom of the lake.
The only thing that would argue against the EBC is that it takes a special
battery, but so do almost all of others. There are a couple though that use
Duracells.
There won't be many avionics shops that will recommend it though because it
does not require any costly installation. D&M builds good stuff. They are
best known for their high end/military antenna antenna products.
The EBC lists for $485, but I have seen it available for around $350 (don't
ask me where).
I was going to offer a couple of alternatives, but now that I have taken
time to list why I like it, I am convinced that is the only one that I
could recommend. If you want ot explore others there was a good run down in
a recent (Nov or Dec) Aviation Consumer
John Top
Phone: (619) 549-3556
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry W. Johnson" <larryj(at)cetlink.net> |
HWilliams(at)BTInternet.com
| Subject: | Re: GLASTARNET: Radios etc. |
John Top wrote:
>
> Stephen:
>
> >Briefly, I am considering using the Digifly DU8GPS moving map engine and
> >flight
> >management system.
>
> I am not familiar with the Digifly. Does it contain a built in GPS? Is it
> IFR certified?
>
> >From you comment re: the Garmin, I get the impression it does.
>
> I am not sure that I would be comfortable with a single box which included
> all my navigation, engine and flight management instruments. I'd be afraid
> of a single point failure
>
> >All this costs a lot of money and it seems to be the opinion that NAV
> >units are not now required.
>
> I have not flown in Europe for 35 years so cannot comment specifically, but
> with GPS you do not need a NAV for a strictly VFR airplane in the US. It is
> required for instrument flight.
>
> >could you let me have a contact address AND fax number for RST. Probably
> >the quickest way to get info or order from RST is to go to their web
> >page http://www.rst-eng.com. I don't have their phone and fax number
> >handy and would go to the same place to get them. If you don't have access
> >come on back and I will get them for you.
>
> >Finally, what suggestions have you for a Transponder and ELT - low price
> >but good quality?
>
> My choice for a transponder due to size, weight and cost would be the Terra
> recently bought out by Trimble) unit. It only takes 1/2 the space of a
> typical panel mount which means that it could be combined with a Terra Nav
> or Terra Comm unit. That is very attractive to me and they make good stuff.
> They have not been around as long as King and that may make a difference in
> Europe as far as service goes. Almost any avionics shop can work on King,
> but that may not be the case with Terra.
>
> An ELT choice is not as clear cut. You can pay from $200-$2000 for an ELT
> and they all provide basically the same function. They also vary greatly in
> size, weight, installation and antenna configuration.
>
> My personal choice will probably be the Dorne & Margolin EBC 502. It is
> designed to be mounted within reach of the flight crew. It is totally self
> contained, does not require a remote switch or an external antenna and if
> it shoud go off accidentally you will hear it because it has an audible
> alarm.
>
> I also think that it offers a lot more safety than other units, because if
> you go down and have time to get yourself out you can probably grab the
> ELT. In addition, it will be a lot better protected by the steel cage of
> the GS than if it was installed in the tail. Most others are installed back
> there and it takes added time to extract them. Not good if the airplane is
> on fire or heading for the bottom of the lake.
>
> The only thing that would argue against the EBC is that it takes a special
> battery, but so do almost all of others. There are a couple though that use
> Duracells.
>
> There won't be many avionics shops that will recommend it though because it
> does not require any costly installation. D&M builds good stuff. They are
> best known for their high end/military antenna antenna products.
>
> The EBC lists for $485, but I have seen it available for around $350 (don't
> ask me where).
>
> I was going to offer a couple of alternatives, but now that I have taken
> time to list why I like it, I am convinced that is the only one that I
> could recommend. If you want ot explore others there was a good run down in
> a recent (Nov or Dec) Aviation Consumer
>
> John Top
> Phone: (619) 549-3556
Before you blow 350-450 dollars look at the Ameriking AK-450,Meets all
the New TSO requirements,inluding European.Portable or fixed
installation,uses 6 duracell C batteries,has remote activation and
ennunciator.Comes complete with everything except the C Batteries for
200-250 dollars.Also has voice capabilities using standard aircraft
microphone.
Lary Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott) |
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
aol.com!LesDrag(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
>
>
> << Exactly what are the dangers of underdriven rivets, especially in an
> important piece such as the wing spar? I have heard many times that you
> shouldn't have any, but never a good reason why. Thanks. >>
>
> They start out loose, and get looser. This is not considered a good
> practice.
>
> I have observed the spar rivets disappearing down into the drilled hole,
> before the head starts to form on the top surface of the spar. (Long 1/8"
> rivets on old style RV-3 spar.)
>
> Jim Ayers
> LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 Maroon Marauder (Limited to 4.4 g's. No big deal, so
> am I.)
> LesDrag(at)aol.com
> Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
Hello, and thanks for answering my question. Like I said, I have only
read how to, but not why to. As you can probably guess, I am working on
my "4" wings. Both spars are done and one is ready to skin. I have
several of the larger rivets that are not close to the 1 1/2x diameter
rule. I will have to use a gun on the one ready to skin, but on number
2 I can use my bench top riveter I originally drove them with. I don't
know why my eye didn't catch them earlier; I should have used a gauge
more often. I didn't really understand your answer about looseness.
They were snug in the holes before I drove them. Is it the hardness you
are ultimately looking for, to prevent shear? Is it the "meat" filling
tightly in the hole? Is it the size of the head, or maybe the hardness
of the head that keeps it from slipping through the hole? Forgive my
ignorance on the subject, I just like understanding why I am doing
something. I don't like making mistakes on this airplane as I never
know who will be riding in it besides me, and I would never forgive
myself if something happened to someone because of my ignorance. Sorry
this turned in to a major question. Thanks for taking the time to
answer me. Sincerely, Michael C. Lott S. Mississippi
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
>
>Can anyone please explain the difference regarding the RV-3/RV-3A.
>
>Can you tell by inspection after the wing is skinned?
>
>David Shipman
Dave, The RV-3A is an RV-3 with a mod made during the 80's. The telltales
show up in two places. The most obvious is the rear spar attachment. The
earlier attach method was a bolt between a single piece of metal extending
from the fuselage into a single piece of metal extending from the rear spar.
This mod added a third piece of metal forming a forked attachment, ie: the
spar between two pieces of metal extending from the fuselage called the spar
carrythrough, much like in the -4 and -6.
This mod also added stiffeners to the inboard wing rib. They could be
implemented in one of two different ways which will not be explained here.
Van's is currently recommending another change to the RV-3 main spar. For
further information about this change, contact Van's Aircraft. Bill
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
| Subject: | (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
>
>Yep, the traffic is down and I thought it was kinda of nice. Only 24
>messages today - so far. And some listers think that is slow!!
Elon,
Your comment about "slow time" hit a nerve and promted me to get something
off my chest.
The other day, I wrote the following post:
>>> Have the number of posts on the list the last few days been rather light
or is my server fouling up again? Things seem really slow. Maybe it's time
to talk about PRIMER!<<<<
I asked this question as I have had problems receiving E-mail through my
server several times. This message was followed up by a message directly to
me from a member of the RV-list (who's name I have deleted to save him some
much deserved embarrassment). this message read:
>>>Sorry to bore you Pro...you are obviously the resident Xpert...Please help
me with the flight phase for I only have 22000 hrs and that has to be very
low time for someone of your backgroung...<<<<
I have written directly to this individual to ask what the problem was but
have not received a response.
Now, the reason for the above. Well, I'm a sensitive guy and just not
used to flames:) Also, the RV-list and RVers in general are some of the
nicest and most fun to be around poeple I know with few exceptions. I've
really enjoyed visiting with "listers" and other RVers at fly-ins. I love
building and flying RVs and enjoy interacting with others with the same
interests. I have enjoyed trading information with fellow builders,
learning more about RVs, and, on occassion, being able to help other
builders avoid mistakes that I or others have made in construction. If the
builders who have completed projects can help others avoid repeating the
same mistakes or can show a better way to do things, I think this is a nice
thing for them to do.
I bring up this point because I have noticed that some flying RVers' posts
have become less and less frequent and, in fact, some of the "old timers"
seemed to have quit posting all togehter. Well, if they receive posts
similar to the one above, I can't blame them. I do correspond with a few
"old listers" and some have indicated that they have been flamed or dumped
on and don't need the grief. Most of this type of activity must have been
done "off list" because I've always felt that this group is very courtious
and realatively "flame free". It takes time away from other projects to
post a thoughtful reply to questions and the builders who are flying really
don't get as much out of the list as they give. I miss some of the input
from these old hands and I would think that any information from someone who
is flying would be a benifit to all listers.
As Rob Acker so elequently stated the other day:
>>>Hope the perfect people on the list haven't pissed off another potentially
very valuable addition to the list. I know of two *very* fine RV craftsmen
that got this type of response from list the first time they posted, and
said screw the a------s.
Let's welcome newbies (both internet and rv-list) and guide them instead of
jumping down their throats. <<<
If posters want to be nasty, there is always rec.aviation.homebuilt available.
Folks, I only have 1,100 hours and I know that there are many more
qualified individuals than I. I've built a Glasair, RV-6, started a second
RV-6, am helping build a Glastar and have helped rebuild 2 L-18Cs (Super
Cubs). The older I get the more I realize that there is a lot more to learn
about aviation. If I can help someone else, it makes me feel good that I
can help. If I find someone's posts not worthwhile, I skip over them in the
future. You can bet I'll do this with "Skippy, the wonder pilot" from now
on. (Skippy's motto: Ego? What ego?).
By the way, Elon, your post was dated Jan. 8th and it got to me on Jan.
12th. Talk about slow:)
There, I feel better. Sorry this is so long.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GLASTARNET: Radios etc. |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Before you blow 350-450 dollars look at the Ameriking AK-450
Larry:
Thanks for the input. That is what makes GS Net so valuable, everyone looks
at things in a slightly different way and it is great to be able to get a
variety of opinions.
I am sure that you did not intend your remarks as a flame, but I really
don't consider an investment in an ELT that meets my requirements "blowing
my money". Granted, it is an item of equipment that most of us will
probably never need, so one could consider any of them a waste of money.
I am familiar with the AK-450. It because of it's price, and the Pointer
which is also Duracell powered and includes a voice capability, were two of
the ones that I had intended to mention to Stephen, but, as I listed the
things that I liked about the EBC unit I came realize that it was my first
choice by a wide margin.
The AK-450 does meet all of the requirements of TSO-C91a and I really like
the idea of being able to use Duracells. Certainly no one can argue that it
isn't competitively priced. It is the least expensive unit available. It
can be found for a street price under $190. All of those things are
goodness.
There are a lot of things that I don't like about the unit though. I don't
like the requirement for the added complexity of remote
installation/activation, nor the need for enunciators and an external
antenna. The voice feature has to be considered a plus but, I don't find it
all that attractive since you must have the presence of mind to remember to
take the aircraft microphone with you to use it.
Also, IMHO, the AK-450 is too big and too heavy. The article in consumers
pointed out that they provide a "carrying strap in case you need to lug it
away from the crash site". Neither do I like the size and layout of the
remote. It takes a lot more panel space than others that I have seen and
for some reason they decided to put in two switches where one would do.
That is bad enough, but they also managed to mark them incorrectly from a
human factors standpoint. The "on" switch is black and the "reset" switch
is red. Red is a more appropriate color for an emergency switch. In a post
accident or forced landing situation the tendency would be to poke at the
red "panic" button which in this case would be the wrong choice.
But, it is not so much what I don't like about the other units that
convinced me that the EBC was my personal choice. It is what I do like
about it. It is small and light, installation consists of bolting it's
bracket in a place that is within reach of the crew. And, that is the most
attractive feature of the 502. If it is handy you will probably grab it as
you exit the aircraft and you will have it with you, where you may not be
able to go back and retrieve a unit that is remotely located.
To refresh my memory before I responded to your comments, I went back and
dug out the issue of AC that contained the article that I referred to in my
earlier posting. It was the November '96 issue BTW. I am glad that I reread
it because, I was mistaken thinking that EBC was a division of Dorne &
Margolin. It is not. They are totally separate companies.
They were both discussed in the same paragraph under the heading Dorne
Margolin, EBC. The D&M stuff is probably some of the most expensive
equipment on the market. I had put it on my equipment list as the D&M/EBC.
John Top
Phone: (619) 549-3556
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LOM RV-3?? was(Random Vne changes??) |
<< Out of curiosity, is your LOM-powered RV-3 officially registered as an RV?
Using a previously untested airframe/powerplant combination certainly
sounds like a "major change" to me.
Regards,
DJ Molny
(no plane, no imminent plans, just lurking) >>
Hi All,
Glad to address this.
Neither the airframe or the engine were untested. There were a number of
RV-3's flying before my first flight, and the LOM engine is a 2000 hr TBO
engine certified by the JAA (I believe) in Europe.
The designer had already established the weight and balance requirements for
an engine/airframe combination.
The initial airworthiness certificate was for an AYERS VAN RV-3, not an RV-3.
(I know, picky, picky, picky)
The LOM engine installation was a major alteration to the original Lycoming
O-290-G installation, and I obtained a new airworthiness certification prior
to its first flight. Since the installation did not cause a sgnificant
weight change (three pounds lighter empty weight) and the empty balance point
was within the designers recommended envelope, there was no significant
change to the design. (Van's motor mount vendor provided the
firewall/landing gear portion of the motor mount.)
The Ivoprop variable pitch prop installation is also a major alteration from
the fixed pitch or ground adjustable prop. I received the third
airworthiness certificate for my RV-3 prior to its first flight with the VP
prop. Since the installed weight of the Ivoprop electric prop is the same as
the Warnke prop, there was no change in the weight and balance.
I don't think taking the cheek cowls off the side of the RV-3 is a major
change. It's a non-structural cowl fairing, and the original cheek cowl only
went about one foot behind the firewall.
The LOM engine moved the prop a foot farther forward nescessitating a
demonstration of normal control and stability during the flight test period.
But the weight was only three pounds less, and the empty balance point was
restored to the original location by moving the battery (so I could make a
direct comparision of performance, before & after).
Major alteration - YES Change to the design specifications - NO
The biggest change in control characteristics occured with the installation
of the flight adjustable Ivoprop prop (all for the better0. Rudder forces
for take off and climb were significantly reduced, and the rudder fixed trim
tab had to be reset to neutral for cruise.
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kevin lane <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Scales/ElecFlaps |
-at a bldrs. meeting the accuracy of individuals' scales was taking a
competitive bent when someone pointed out that at Boeing they double the
hardener ratio to make it set up more quickly. Other "old timers" just mix
it until it looks right. Don't get too fixed on proportions, it seems to
not matter that much.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Scales/ElecFlaps |
>Go buy an electronic postal scale. They work great. Cost about $35. Look
>at Office Depot
>
I bought a small eloctronic cooks scale. It reads in grams or oz graduated
in 5 gram or 1/4 oz. increments up to a maximum of 11 pounds. What really
makes it handy is that if you place the container on it before you turn it
on turn it it reads zero and all you are weighing is whatever you place in
the container. No heavy math. I don't remember whatI paid for it. Probably
about the same.
John Top
Phone: (619) 549-3556
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
(snip)
I didn't really understand your answer about looseness. (Snip) Michael C.
Lott S. Mississippi
>>
Hi All,
Since I had to drill out a couple of the rivets in my spar, I noticed that
the rivet not only swells out to the size of the hole, it also swells into
the deburr chamfer on each segment.
Having drilled out the bad rivet, the holes were also now slightly larger
than before. I had to use a rivet that protruded out of the spar 2 times the
rivet diameter, because as the rivet was driven, part of this extra length
disappeared into the spar.
You already know the gage for the adequate swelling, or "set", of the rivet
is a minimum shop head diameter of 1 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet,
with at least a height of 1/2 diameter on the shop head. This is an
acceptability standard for a properly set rivet, and is the basis for all of
the empirical data used to determine the strength of a riveted assembly.
I appologize for referring to the rivet as being loose, since this is a
relative term. However, the result of an inadequate set to the shop head in
a wing or fuselage skin is usually referred to as a "smoking rivet". :-]
That is, it becomes loose with time, and chaffs in the hole. (It also
occurs due to higher loads than the rivet was expected to see.)
Jim Ayers
LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
Bob Skinner wrote: (much snipped)
Elon, Your comment about "slow time" hit a nerve and promted me to get something
off my chest.
The other day, I wrote the following post:
... Things seem really slow. Maybe it's time to talk about PRIMER!
--------------------------------------------
... This message was followed up by a message directly to me from a member of the
RV-list
... Well, I'm a sensitive guy and just not used to flames:)
-----------------------------------------------
By the way, Elon, your post was dated Jan. 8th and it got to me on Jan. 12th.
Talk about slow:)
=============================================
Well Bob, since you bared your soul publically I should be man enough to apologize
in public.
I'm realy not sure "I" offended you (that was not my intent) OR if you were reacting
to that
PRIVATE e-mail. You jokingly said "maybe its time to talk about primer" and my
joking response
was "Leave it to Bob Skinner to PRIME the pump." I even added a smiley :-)!
As you mentioned my posting hit the list 4 days after I sent it. I don't have
a clue as to what
caused that delay. But I have learned two things are important in e-mailing. (1)
Due to absence
of voice inflection or body english, words can be easily misinterpeted AND (2)
imediate
continuity is extremly important. Many times a posting comes days late to a thread
that was
formely a hot topic but, due to the time lapse, the meaning of the last posting
gets hopelessly
lost. I think some of that came into play here. I certainly have appreciated
all of your help
and did not intend to offend you. BTW those Internet addresses were great, thanks.
My apologies to the list - I owe it to Bob to go public with this.
Sincerely, -Elon Ormsby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
Mike ,
an over driven rivet has a shop head that is too small a weak and may break
off thus allowing the rivet to work lose and come out.......George Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 1997 Twin Cities RV Forum |
Please put me on the mailing list. I look foreward to making it to the third
rv
get together. John Bunn
12462 Anchorage Way
Fishers, In. 46975
317-578-7336
JTB520(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
>I'm realy not sure "I" offended you (that was not my intent) OR if you were
reacting to that
>Sincerely, -Elon Ormsby
Ooops. Darn. rats. No Elon, you didn't do a darn thing. Your post was just
a catalyst for me to "purge my mind". Heck no. You've been a pussy cat just
like 99.9% of the other listers. I always enjoy your posts. Sorry for the
confusion.
RVer's: Sorry for the long post. I probably should have kept my thoughts
to myself. It was late, I was tired (hence all of the mis-spellings) and it
had been bugging me for several days. I guess I should have said that the
Golden Rule, once again, can be used to smooth over some of life's rough
spots when we interact on the list. My other point: If you're on the list
to receive help building your RV, it doesn't make sense to alienate the
people who can help you.
Sorry again, Leon, for the confusion.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Gesele <scottg(at)villagenet.com> |
I'm still a little confused about the new TSO requirements for ELT's. I
purchased an EBC ELT that meets the old requirements. Can this be installed
in my project (it already is)? I sure hope that I didn't spend $200 for a
paper weight.
Thanks in advance.
Scott Gesele N506RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
Thanks for the reply Bill.
I noticed that Van does not include the RV-3 in the current magazine
advertisements. Do you know if this will change or have plans etc. been
discontinued.
Thanks again,
David Shipman
innovate(at)dallas.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
> As Rob Acker so elequently stated the other day...people on the list
haven't pissed off another potentially very valuable addition to the
list...Let's welcome newbies (both internet and rv-list) and guide them
instead of jumping down their throats. <<<
>
> If posters want to be nasty, there is always rec.aviation.homebuilt
available.
>
>Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
I apologize to Bob and the list. Coming across as nasty was certainly not
my intent.
Thanks to all who responded to my trim tab movement question...the overall
consensus was most only used a maximum of +/- 1" for the entire flight
envelope. I was able to modify my trim tab horn to obtain 1 1/2" down and 1
1/4" up movement on the tab (I hope that's enough!).
Lurk mode on...
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q Project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last updated 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 photos)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills) |
| Subject: | Re: Overspray!!! |
Hi Joe,
Just passing on something I remember reading some time ago in Kitplanes.
Please dont flame me. A builder of a Sonerai did the same thing and used a
soft polishing rag and tartar control toothpaste as a polishing compound. He
reported excellent results.
Mike Wills
RV-4 (wings)
willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
>Hi Guys.
>
> I just discovered a small problem and would like some opinions on how
>best to rectify the situation.
> Any thoughts
>
> Thanks in advance
>joe
>C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
>
>joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
>506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
>506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott) |
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
aol.com!LesDrag(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
>
>
> (snip)
> I didn't really understand your answer about looseness. (Snip) Michael C.
> Lott S. Mississippi
> >>
> Hi All,
>
> Since I had to drill out a couple of the rivets in my spar, I noticed that
> the rivet not only swells out to the size of the hole, it also swells into
> the deburr chamfer on each segment.
> Having drilled out the bad rivet, the holes were also now slightly larger
> than before. I had to use a rivet that protruded out of the spar 2 times the
> rivet diameter, because as the rivet was driven, part of this extra length
> disappeared into the spar.
>
> You already know the gage for the adequate swelling, or "set", of the rivet
> is a minimum shop head diameter of 1 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet,
> with at least a height of 1/2 diameter on the shop head. This is an
> acceptability standard for a properly set rivet, and is the basis for all of
> the empirical data used to determine the strength of a riveted assembly.
>
> I appologize for referring to the rivet as being loose, since this is a
> relative term. However, the result of an inadequate set to the shop head in
> a wing or fuselage skin is usually referred to as a "smoking rivet". :-]
> That is, it becomes loose with time, and chaffs in the hole. (It also
> occurs due to higher loads than the rivet was expected to see.)
>
> Jim Ayers
> LOM M332A Ivoprop RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder
> LesDrag(at)aol.com
> Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
Thank you very much for your response to my rivet questions, not knowing
was bothering me. (Mr. Orndorff responded, also.) I appreciate very
much the helpful hints and directions I come across while "lurking"
around the rv-list. I was hesitant to ask a question "out loud" because
of all the flaming going on. Well, thanks again to you and all the
other helpful people on the list, and if you will excuse me, I have to
get back to work on my plane!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
44,46,48,50-51,53,55,57-65
| From: | wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen) |
Bob & otherListers,
Well stated Bob. As one of those "Old Timers" noted below, I
currently read 99% of what is posted. Also, as noted below, I refuse to
stoop to "flaming" as I find it counter productive to the intent of the
list. To me, this just adds clutter, and usually just gets deleted after
a quick scan. I enjoy this list for it's technical building content, and
the satisfaction of helping others with their building problems.
I suggest that, if "flames" are necessary for you to vent your
feelings, that you do it to directly to the addressee..... Those
individuals can then decide what to do about responding........
Personally, I no longer participate in rec.aviation.homebuilt as I've
learned that there is more buls**t than there is FACT. If this list were
to get that bad, I probably would leave it also.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV 825 Hr TT
wstucklen1(at)juno.com
writes:
*** Snip ***
>
> Now, the reason for the above. Well, I'm a sensitive guy and just not
>used to flames:) Also, the RV-list and RVers in general are some of the
>nicest and most fun to be around poeple I know with few exceptions.
I've
>really enjoyed visiting with "listers" and other RVers at fly-ins. I
love
>building and flying RVs and enjoy interacting with others with the same
>interests. I have enjoyed trading information with fellow builders,
>learning more about RVs, and, on occassion, being able to help other
>builders avoid mistakes that I or others have made in construction. If
the
>builders who have completed projects can help others avoid repeating the
>same mistakes or can show a better way to do things, I think this is a
nice
>thing for them to do.
> I bring up this point because I have noticed that some flying RVers'
posts
>have become less and less frequent and, in fact, some of the "old
timers"
>seemed to have quit posting all togehter. Well, if they receive posts
>similar to the one above, I can't blame them. I do correspond with a
few
>"old listers" and some have indicated that they have been flamed or
dumped
>on and don't need the grief. Most of this type of activity must have
been
>done "off list" because I've always felt that this group is very
courtious
>and realatively "flame free". It takes time away from other projects to
>post a thoughtful reply to questions and the builders who are flying
really
>don't get as much out of the list as they give. I miss some of the
input
>from these old hands and I would think that any information from someone
who
>is flying would be a benifit to all listers.
> As Rob Acker so elequently stated the other day:
>
**** SNIP ****
>
>Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How I tested my fuel tanks |
Hi all!
Thought you might want to read about something that
actually relates to building rather than the U.S.
legal system. :)
After reading someone's post about using an inflatable
plug to plug up the fuel cap, I decided to go check
it out. I found it at our local mega-hardware store
(Eagle) but discovered it was $20+. However, right
next to it, they had a far simpler plug. This one
looks like a V pulley cut in half with a rubber ring
in between the two halves. A screw with a wing nut
goes through the center of the two halves and expands
the rubber ring as you tighten it.
\_||_/ ---- wing nut
______||______
-\------------/-
| \__________/ | ------ rubber ring
| ____||____ |
| / \ |
-/------------\-
--------------
This cost me around $3. It turns out that it would
leak around the screw in the center, but this was
easily fixed by cutting the end off a balloon and
inserting the plug into the balloon and then into
the tank.
I cut the end off another balloon and put this around
the vent fitting and held it on by wrapping a rubber
band around the fitting as many times as I could get
the rubber to stretch. Finally, I mounted a third
balloon on the fuel outlet fitting, again holding it
on by wrapping a rubber band around it.
I then used my little 12 volt pump which is intended
only for air mattresses and inner tubes (not for
inflating tires) and started putting air in the tank
using the quick drain. Using the quick drain means
you don't have to try and quickly plug up something
else. The first time I did this, the balloon over
the fuel outlet fitting didn't expand as fast as I
thought it should so I stopped the pump and stretched
the balloon out a bit. POP! The stretching of the
balloon allowed the balloon to quickly expand. The
amount of pressure in the tank was greater than the
balloon could handle, and it popped in my face! After
that, I would pump some air in and then stretch the
balloon to see if it would expand. This whole process
took a few iterations to arrive at for the first tank,
but worked perfectly the first time on the second
tank.
So, both wing tanks check. No slosh, but a lot of
ProSeal (more than a quart between the two tanks).
Friday, I drive down to Van's and pick up my
fuselage kit. :)
Doug Medema, RV-6A, slow but steady!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
This thread is getting so out of hand I hate to add to it, but.....
As far as I know, there has been ONE lawsuit involving a homebult.
There may have been a few more but the point is they are exremely rare.
Someone also mentioned the infamous "spilled coffee" suit. Sure, that
kind of thing is nuts, but it was an abberation. Do you think the
press is going to tell us about every frivolous lawsuit that gets
thrown out of court? Not any more than they're going to tell us about
it every time a car crash occurs. Yet every time an airliner even has
to make a precautionary landing, it's on the 5:00 news.
Our problem is we listen to these sensationalized news reports that
blow everything out of proportion, and think it's the norm. This
feeds on the general paranoia and we all go out and buy insurance to
cover every little thing, and everybody ends up with warm coffee.
Statistically, your chances of getting sued over your homebuilt
are pretty small. I hope people will take that into account before
they go cutting up their airplane.
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM> |
Kitfox List ,
George Orndorff
| Subject: | Acft Parts Supplier |
As many of you are aware, finding some types of parts,
especially "jelly-bean" variety can be difficult. The
traditional suppliers want to sell only to OEMs and
in lots of 1000! Further, they expect the customer to
establish a line of credit suited to retrofitting a
20 year-old 747 . . .
In response to a reader's request for information on
MS21919 clamp suppliers, I've found a gentleman who's
just started a small parts supply business here in
Wichita. He says he's interested in orders of ANY
size to ANYONE. Soooooo . . . . I'm holding his
feet to the fire and posting his particulars here.
He tells me he's working on a line card and web site.
As soon as those data are available, I'll post the
addresses here:
Add this your list of small parts resources . . .
All System Aircraft Parts Co.
Mick Hattrup
7010 East 10th Street
Wichita, KS 67206
email: lvne20a(at)prodigy.com
voice: 316-684-9692
fax: 316-684-6982
Mike tells me that credit card orders are welcome.
I'd be pleased to hear feedback from anyone on the quality
and capabilities of his services, good or bad but especially
the bad. He's right here in Wichita so if you need help,
I'll personally go bang on his cage.
Regards,
Bob . . .
AeroElectric Connection
////
(o o)
==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo==========
| |
| Go ahead, make my day . . . |
| Show me where I'm wrong. |
=================================
72770.552(at)compuserve.com
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com> |
100630.457(at)CompuServe.COM
>
>I'm still a little confused about the new TSO requirements for ELT's. I
>purchased an EBC ELT that meets the old requirements. Can this be installed
>in my project (it already is)? I sure hope that I didn't spend $200 for a
>paper weight.
Scott:
The EBC does meet the requirements of 91a.
I was also confused when from reading the reg, because it states
specifically that it must be able to control it from the cockpit and have a
panel mounted enunciator. Most other manufacturers implemented that by
providing remote switches, enunciators etc., etc. I took the easy route and
called the company.
The totally self contained EBC meets the spec by being mounted in a
location where it is accessible from the cockpit. If you have mounted
anywhere in the living quarters an RV you ought to be okay.
John Top
Phone: (619) 549-3556
________________________________________________________________________________
glastarnet(at)vellocet.insync.net
| From: | John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: GLASTARNET: Radios etc. |
Jim, Dan:
I must say that I share your sentiments, but, with qualifications. I am
sure that most people would agree.
My only thought was that if you have to have one of the durn things you may
as well have one that is simple to install, doesn't degrade the performance
of the aircraft, and which might be useful if you ever did go down. None of
the others meet that criteria.
If you will permit a war story. I did have an unscheduled landing in the
Nevada desert mid 60's flying helicopter. We got a mayday off, but neither
one of us bothered to look around to see which way we should go to walk
out. We were both staring at the only spot that was big enough to park that
sucker in. We got down with no damage to the aircraft thanks to some quick
thinking passengers who jumped out and pulled the mesquite trees down as
the blades started settling into them. We spent the nite at the airplane
and grabbed all the water we were carrying and elected to walk south. It
turned out to be a good choice because we hit a dirt road about 5 miles
from where we went down and followed it to a beer joint where we were able
to get a phone.
We spotted another helicopter flying low level down the road and were able
to flag him down thinking that he must have been looking for us. It turned
out that he had been on an admin mission back to Luke and was just
following the road back to our field location. He did lead another larger
aircraft back to us later that afternoon.
The point of this somewhat lengthy note is that if we had been injured and
unable to walk out we would probably still be there. Our May day had been
picked up and a search had been initiated at dawn the next day with several
helicopters looking for us, but they were looking 40 to 50 miles south of
where we were. A functioning ELT would have cost us a day of kicking back
drinking beer in this instance, but it could have saved some lives. Like
all survival equipment, you never need it until you need it.
A lot also depends on where you fly. In this neighborhood there are miles
and miles of miles and miles and nothing in between.
I am sure my Army back ground may be showing thru, but I still carry a
gallon jug of water in the back of my airplane and have a handheld,
sectionals and a flare pencil in my Jep case. I fly a twin so it is not
likely that I will ever need them but, it is comforting having them on the
~ 4 hour trip between here and El Paso and in Baja. I have never needed
them and hopefully never will, but........
>Time for my two cents.
>When it comes to nav and com equipment, get the best you can afford.
>Regarding ELT's get the cheapest one you can find. Who knows how many actual
>saves have been made by an ELT? My opinion is that it is a useless piece of
>junk required by a bunch of more useless politicians.
>Jim Siebel
>GlaStar 5043
>
>
>DITTO THAT!!
>
>
>Dan Dudley
>#5165
John Top
Phone: (619) 549-3556
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sheinlein(at)vnet.IBM.COM |
| Subject: | Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
I made a few phone calls to the NYS tax department to see exactly what
the LAW says we need to do when building our RV's. Whether or not we
want to follow it is a different story... you play the game and you
take your chances!
Here's the scoop on what you have to do to be totally legal in the
eyes of NEW YORK STATE authorities:
You must pay tax on EVERYTHING you buy out of state if you bring it INTO
the state and "OWN & CONTROL" that property in that state. This is a
"USE TAX", not a "SALES TAX". It just so happens that use tax = sales tax
in amount (it's really the same thing with a different name).
This must be done within 20 days from when the item "comes into the state"
(not from when you "buy" or "pay for" the item).
So... Legally, we must pay tax on each of our kits when we receive them.
It has nothing to do with the aircraft being complete/flyable or
registered!
Technically, this means we have to pay tax on the tools we purchase
also (remember, it pertains to EVERYTHING you buy out of state).
If you don't do this, they will get you when you register the plane
in the end. Now, if you decide to take your chances, it sounded like
they will take your word on how much you spent on the plane. The guy
grudgingly admitted that NYS does not try to trace how much you really
spent on the plane, UNLESS you give them a cost that seems real low!
In that case, they will try and get a more realistic number and you're
in the market for some hefty penalties!
I think if you pay tax on the kits as you get them, and ignore "extra's"
like tools, options, etc... you'll probably be ok. (However, this would
technically be illegal.)
Also, the tax you pay in the end is the component cost of your plane.
Thus, it is NOT the finished value of your plane. If you paid $30,000
for all the parts to your plane and it is worth $50,000 when you are
done, you only pay tax on the $30,000.
To pay the tax as you go, call 1-800-462-8100 and order some ST130 forms.
Don't worry, they're free! :)
Another thing... if you (like me) didn't pay your tax on the first few
kits you ordered from Vans, you will most likely be PENALIZED when you
do send in the form. UNLESS you attach a WRITTEN comment to the ST130
where you "Request an Abatement of Penalty" and write down some excuse
for why you're more than 20 days late. The guy said something like
"I thought I was supposed to pay the tax when the plane was done" will
probably do. (I'll let you know, that's what I'm going to try!)
Another thing (can you say loophole?) is the following:
You pay the tax for the STATE (which is 3%) AND also for the COUNTY
(in my case, Dutchess County is 4.25%). So... if you "use/assemble"
the kit in another county (hint, how will they know who's garage you
built your plane in?) then you can probably pay less by finding a
"friend" who's garage is in a cheaper county.
Just for laughs, the guy I talked to informed me that all the states
are trying to get together to swap buy/sell info between states.
The eventual goal is to be able to trace all out-of-state purchases
so they can nail you for the tax easier.
Sigh... Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that's the story.
At least, if you know the rules, you can play the game any way you
want and hopefully be aware of the possible consequences.
All of a sudden, that sparkly new engine from Vans that I had my
eye on has lost some of it's twinkle :(
Hope all of this helps the New York folks...
Stephen Heinlein
sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark D Hiatt" <OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com> |
This is one of the scariest parts of building an airplane, to me. When I read
"Build it forty cubits by eighty cubits" I get out the best measuring tools I
can find... and still worry about both the accuracy and the precision. I know
we're not building 'fast-glass' airplanes, but I wouldn't feel comfortable
straying too far from the Official Recipe. I've said before, it may be an
"Experimental" airplane, but I don't plan to do much experimenting.
I've seen airplanes with crooked tails. Their owners just beam back at you
from the flightline. Just look at that electric ashtray, huh? I've seen
airplanes with fifty rivets on one side, and fifty-two on the other. Maybe
that's okay, I dunno. To me, each rivet has some explaining to do and since
both sides go through the air at 175mph, there ought to be just as many over
here as live over there.
I imagine Steve Wittman his own self, doping up the O-and-O Special, and
thinking back on nearly seventy years of flying experience and saying to
himself "Well... that'll be good enough". That took Steve out of the sky in
the prime of life-his early nineties. Maybe fiddling with the plans will save
a few days or a few dollars, but maybe it costs more than that.
Mark D Hiatt
OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com
Aviation Forum Manager,
The Microsoft Network.
----------
From: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com on behalf of kevin lane
Sent: Monday, January 13, 1997 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Scales/ElecFlaps
-at a bldrs. meeting the accuracy of individuals' scales was taking a
competitive bent when someone pointed out that at Boeing they double the
hardener ratio to make it set up more quickly. Other "old timers" just mix
it until it looks right. Don't get too fixed on proportions, it seems to
not matter that much.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)lnavix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
>> As Rob Acker so elequently stated the other day...people on the list
>haven't pissed off another potentially very valuable addition to the
>list...Let's welcome newbies (both internet and rv-list) and guide them
>instead of jumping down their throats. <<<
>>
>> If posters want to be nasty, there is always rec.aviation.homebuilt
>available.
>>
>>Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
>
>I apologize to Bob and the list. Coming across as nasty was certainly not
>my intent.
>
>Thanks to all who responded to my trim tab movement question...the overall
>consensus was most only used a maximum of +/- 1" for the entire flight
>envelope. I was able to modify my trim tab horn to obtain 1 1/2" down and 1
>1/4" up movement on the tab (I hope that's enough!).
>Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q Project:
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
>(last updated 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 photos)
Oh Lord. I'm sorry Rob. I did not communicate very well, I'm afraid. I
was using your post to reinforce what I was trying to communicate. In other
words, I quoted your post because it was something that I very much agreed
with. Gosh, your a nice guy and I've always enjoyed your contributions. I
will try to be more concise in future ramblings.
Oh, when will I ever learn to just keep my mouth shut?
Sincere apologies for the mis-understanding.
Now, back to building)
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au> |
Hi,
I have a mate who owns and flys an RV4 and is not on the net. But he is a
ham radio operater. He has asked me to post this message asking if any of
you people hapen to be ham operaters. If you are interested in supplying
him your callsigns I would be pleased to pass them on to him.
Cheers, Les Rowles.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daniel Houlton <tc75918(at)hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Anne B. Hiers wrote:
>
>
> Daniel Houlton wrote:
> >
> > Brian Hitchings wrote:
> > >
> > >
...
> >
> > That's not quite what I got out of it. My impression is that the seller
...
> >
> > --Dan
>
> Dan-
>
> An attorney with a shark fin on his back would eat you alive
> if you tried this. Liability laws in the hands of a ambulance
I never said I would try it, nor am I suggesting to. As I stated in the
very first sentence of my response to Mr Hitchings, this is what I
interpreted a previous posting to say, which was a little different than
his interpretation.
> chaser ( no,not all attorneys are bad.I actually know a good one.)
> can be a terrible thing. If you sell an airplane you built you
> are open to a law suit.
>
> CRAIG HIERS
> N143CH
>
--Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
Concerning that ELT that used regular Duracells. Can't remember the name of
it, but it is the one with the remote annunciator. I had that one in my RV.
The Duracells were cheap, but the battery in the annunciator was very
expensive. It gets replaced with the Duracells. As I remember, the total
cost for batteries about equaled the price of a regular ELT battery.
Another consideration, when you fill that baby up with all those "D" cells,
it's vey heavy.
I'll probably get flamed, but, here goes. I mounted the unit on top of
the battery box and put the antenna on the bottom of the fuselage just aft of
the battery. The logic I used may sound strange, but then again, the
possibility of anyone finding you within a couple of days is also remote. My
logic is that if I crashed and stayed right side up, I wouldn't need the ELT
as much as if I just flipped over and couldn't get out. Anything worse than
that and it probable wouldn't matter when the morgue found you. All in all,
I don't put much faith in an ELT.
Ok, I've got my flack jacket on, Flame me.
Dave, RV-6, built, Flew, Sold, Repeat offender?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mauser(at)Claris.COM (Richard Chandler) |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
A reminder to all those whe are modifying their trim tab horns so that the
maximum travel equals the maximum amount expected to be needed in flight.
Just remember those stories about aircraft that have lost the use of the
elevator control and landed by controlling the elevator with the trim tab.
You might want to keep a little of that extra headroom.
--
Richard Chandler
RV-6: Garage bought and being finished, saving for tools and tail kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuselage Jig Construction |
This may be of interest to those of you who have yet to build or acquire your
fuselage jig. A friend of mine, LLoyd Remus(not on the list), just finished his
RV4 fuselage jig and it turned out very well. He built it of wood per Van's
plans but, for the long side pieces he used manufactured floor joist beams
purchased off the shelf from a local lumber yard. They are I-beams that have a
wafer(sp?) board web with flanges made with 1x1 lumber. The cost is slightly
higher than equivalent 2x lumber, but because the beams are so straight, he had
an easy time with squaring and leveling the jig.
I built my jig with lumber that I bought well in advance to allow it to
dry out completely. The side pieces that were straight when I bought
them, were not so straight when it came time to build the jig. So I
struggled. When I build my second RV :), I'll use Lloyd's method for
building a fuselage jig.
Bob Hall, rjhall(at)kktv.com
Dimpling fuselage skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdunn(at)ionet.net (Ron Dunn) |
Have any of you forty or so RV-8 builders on the list, received your wing
spars yet???? I haven't heard a peep from the list. And I'm sure sick and
tired of liability and taxes. Shhheeeeshh.
Ron
Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
rdunn(at)ionet.net
Broken Arrow, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdunn(at)ionet.net (Ron Dunn) |
| Subject: | Aileron spar reinf plate |
A-408 is a spar reinforcement plate that is attached to each end of the
Ailerons. The plate is fab'ed from .040 2024T3. Only problem is that I
can't find any .040 in my wing kit. Any other RV-8 guys with wing kits get
some .040 in your kits? I don't even find any on the parts list.
Ron
Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
rdunn(at)ionet.net
Broken Arrow, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rdunn(at)ionet.net (Ron Dunn) |
| Subject: | Aileron Trim - Help |
So, I bought the electric aileron trim option for my RV-8 wing kit. After
examining the parts and drawing, I am not impressed. As I see my options,
they are: 1) shut up and install the trim per plans, 2) redesign the tab
like the elevator (tab built into and flush with the control surface), 3)
install a spring arrangement, 4) don't install any aileron trim at all.
Advise please from flying RVers.
1) Is Aileron trim a highly desirable option?
2) What is the "spring thing" and is there a drawing of such an arrangement?
Thanks for your input.
Ron
Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
rdunn(at)ionet.net
Broken Arrow, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kit sale liability |
Daniel Houlton wrote:
>
>
> Anne B. Hiers wrote:
> >
> >
> > Daniel Houlton wrote:
> > >
> > > Brian Hitchings wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> ...
>
> > >
> > > That's not quite what I got out of it. My impression is that the seller
> ...
>
> > >
> > > --Dan
> >
> > Dan-
> >
> > An attorney with a shark fin on his back would eat you alive
> > if you tried this. Liability laws in the hands of a ambulance
>
>
> I never said I would try it, nor am I suggesting to. As I stated in the
> very first sentence of my response to Mr Hitchings, this is what I
> interpreted a previous posting to say, which was a little different than
> his interpretation.
>
> > chaser ( no,not all attorneys are bad.I actually know a good one.)
> > can be a terrible thing. If you sell an airplane you built you
> > are open to a law suit.
> >
> > CRAIG HIERS
> > N143CH
> >
>
> --Dan
Dan
Sorry I did not mean it as a flame. I was taken by an unscrupulos
attorney and it still hurts a little.
Craig Hiers
RV-4 N143CH
Tallahassee,Fl.
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
I noticed that Van does not include the RV-3 in the current magazine
advertisements. Do you know if this will change or have plans etc. been
discontinued.
Thanks again,
David Shipman
innovate(at)dallas.net
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darrell L. Anderson" <d.l.anderson(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | underdriven rivets |
----------
From: aol.com!LesDrag(at)matronics.com[SMTP:aol.com!LesDrag(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 1997 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: underdriven rivets
=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Jim Ayers
LesDrag(at)aol.com
Thousand Oaks, Ca. USA
wrote:
You already know the gage for the adequate swelling, or "set", of the =
rivet
is a minimum shop head diameter of 1 1/2 times the diameter of the =
rivet,
with at least a height of 1/2 diameter on the shop head. This is an
acceptability standard for a properly set rivet, and is the basis for =
all of
the empirical data used to determine the strength of a riveted assembly. =
What allowances must be made for using the rivet gauge to check rivet =
height on double dimpled joints? My wife was doing the bucking duties =
on the wing skin, and using the rivet gauge to check rivet height. I =
should have checked what was going on before installing so many. The =
rest of the rivets were driven using the diameter gauge as the primary =
check, and they "look" better, even though they protrude almost twice as =
high above the rib flanges.
The rivets called for in the RV-4 plans for the lower outboard .025 skin =
(426AD-3-4) resulted in a shop head that was much wider than the gauge's =
1-1/2d when driven to 1/2d height. For .050 material thickness, in =
theory the correct rivet length should be .050 plus 1-1/2d, ( a -3.5 =
rivet), or at least it works for flat sheets. =20
For some reason, drawing 19 calls for 3-3.5 rivets on the top .025 skin, =
and 3-4 on the bottom. My lower rivets "appear" to be overdriven when =
compared to non-dimpled #3 rivets that have been checked with the gauge. =
The worst of them measure .19 to .20 in diameter instead of the .14 =
standard when driven to 1/2d above the undimpled surface of the sheet. =
At least I meet "minimum" diameter!
Should the height of the dimpled shop head have be measured from the =
flat sheet surface (as a gauge would measure it), or from the lip of the =
protruding dimple? Van's manual, CAM 18, and AC 43-13 all conveniently =
avoid any dimensioned diagrams of double dimple rivet joints. If the =
measurement should be of the exposed shop head only, then a different =
rivet gage for double dimple joints should be made that adds the =
dimension of the dimple protrusion to the 1/2d shop head to get total =
height above the sheet.
I'm prepared to drill out all the questionable rivets (whew!) but I'm =
afraid that I'll do more damage in the process. Of course, the holes =
will now be slightly oversized, etc., etc.
Darrell Anderson=09
RV-4=20
Montana .....-30 F last night!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK) |
You wrote:
"Have any of you forty or so RV-8 builders on the list, received your
wing
spars yet???? I haven't heard a peep from the list. And I'm sure
sick and
tired of liability and taxes. Shhheeeeshh."
Not me. Not yet. I understand that it might not be too much longer,
though.
George Kilishek
RV-8 # 80006. Rib preparation, Flaps and ailerons complete.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK) |
| Subject: | Aileron spar reinf plate |
Ron:
I did not. Called Vans and was told that, after sending out the
early kits they decided to supply these parts pre-cut in a bag. Of
course, I didn't have the bag and it wasn't on my packing list.
They cheerfully sent me a bag at no cost.
George Kilishek
RV-8 #80006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)lnavix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab movement... |
>Just remember those stories about aircraft that have lost the use of the
>elevator control and landed by controlling the elevator with the trim tab.
>Richard Chandler RV-6: Garage bought and being finished
A good point, Richard. It's a remote possibility that this would happen but
a little redundancy is good piece of mind, sometimes. In case the bolt
holding the elevator push rod to the elevator horns drops out, it would be a
good idea to have the two elevators coupled together, IMO. Otherwise, you'd
have one elevator half that is uncontrollable and might be a possible
flutter candidate. I machined a spacer to fit in between the horns, about
an inch in diameter and attached it to the horns with an AN bolt to tie the
two elevator halves together.
Disclaimer: This is what I did and such a modification may not have the
blessing of the designer.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank Smidler <smidler(at)dcwi.com> |
| Subject: | First flight/canopy cover |
I'd like to announce another RV flying. Dave Sloan of Boswell, IN built
an RV-6A that flew for the first time in December with Mike Wonder at
the controls. All went well. Dave has since found enough clear sky in
this miserable weather to fly it himself.
Now the Question. He requested that I ask the list for information on
the best canopy cover to buy. Your input would be appreciated.
Frank Smidler
RV-6 fueslage almost done
smidler(at)dcwi.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Louis E. Smith Jr." <lsmith(at)coastalnet.com> |
Ron Dunn wrote:
>
>
> Have any of you forty or so RV-8 builders on the list, received your wing
> spars yet???? I haven't heard a peep from the list. And I'm sure sick and
> tired of liability and taxes. Shhheeeeshh.
>
> Ron
>
> Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
> rdunn(at)ionet.net
> Broken Arrow, OK
Ron,
I talked to Tom @ Vans and he said they sent out six spars the week
before last. Evidently they were not yours or mine. Worked out and
waiting!
Louis Smith
lsmith(at)coastalnet.com
RV-8 #80126 N801RV reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK) |
| Subject: | Sheet Metal Classes |
My $.02:
I took the Avery course, (taught in this case by George and Becky
Orndorff, since Avery was over-subscribed at the time).
In addition to hands on experience with rivetting, deburring, metal
shearing, back rivetting, assembly of a control surface etc etc etc,,
there was enough casual advice passed out to be worth the price of
admission. I found it very useful to know which tools to buy (and
which ones I really didn't need).
It was also conducted in a fun and friendly family setting.
I'd recommend it to anyone and would do it again myself if starting
out all over.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)Ozemail.com.au> |
Bob,
it distresses me greatly that this should happen. I read your postings with
great interest and your advice has prevented me from making many simple
mistakes (a have a talent for making the really big goofs despite the best
advice).
Bob, stick around (I haven't finished my RV yet :-) ).
What ever happened to that very interesting thread about the Vortec
engine???????? Can we repair the flame damage and get his postings back?
Look how much we have lost. The commercial world says that it 5 times as
much effort to get a new customer than maintain an old one. Were else are
you going to get this information in such a easy fashion.
To all the 'experts'. Please do as all a favour, if you can't offer a
positive addition to the discussion, just hit the Ctrl-D and move on.
If you believe that the information is incorrect, just say so without the
flames. Everyone here gives the information 'to the best of their
knowledge'. All the listers know that none of the information is guaranteed
to be correct.
Royce Craven
>
>
>>>>Sorry to bore you Pro...you are obviously the resident Xpert...Please help
>me with the flight phase for I only have 22000 hrs and that has to be very
>low time for someone of your backgroung...<<<<
>
> I have written directly to this individual to ask what the problem was but
>have not received a response.
>
>...........
> There, I feel better. Sorry this is so long.
>
>Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net (Chris Brooks) |
| Subject: | underdriven rivets |
Darrell, on double dimpled skins you measure rivet hieght from the top
of the dimple, not from the flat surface of the skin.I do this with a
rivet guage, I just push one side of it up against the rivet so that it
sits on the dimple.
Chris Brooks RV-6
biulding fuselage
BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble to put anything over
the filler cap while pressure testing the tanks. You need to test the cap
for leaks. My only leak was the center of the cap itself. I like the KISS
(Keep IT Simple Stupid) principle. (BTW, I'm not calling anyone stupid) Put
your tank cap on, put a cap at the fuel outlet, tape a balloon on the vent,
stretch balloon while applying air into the tank through the drain (pushing
up on the drain while applying air, of course). Use soapy water and check
everywhere for leaks. What could be simpler? Or did I miss something.
Dave, RV-6, Built, Flew, Sold, Haven't been sued yet, Repeat Offender?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au> |
Hi to Guy from Japan who answered my post,
I just made a real dickhead of myself by attempting to print your message,
and out of habit I hit the delete icon instead. If it is not to much
trouble would you mind reposting it.
Cheers, Les Rowles.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig Construction |
Another good idea in jig material is to use Cedar. I bought very straight 18
ft long 2x10's. Worked great. Cedar won't warp, it's light, and it smells
great.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | underdriven rivets |
>For some reason, drawing 19 calls for 3-3.5 rivets on the top .025 skin,
and 3-4 on the bottom. My lower rivets "appear" to be overdriven when
compared to non-dimpled #3 rivets that have been checked with the gauge.
The worst of them measure .19 to .20 in diameter instead of the .14
standard when driven to 1/2d above the undimpled surface of the sheet. At
least I meet "minimum" diameter!
I have personally found that slightly longer rivets (1/2 size longer) give
me better rivets in dimple into dimple joints. I used -4 rivets in the
location you mentioned above. Buy a package of -4.5 and -5.5 rivets from
Aircraft $pruce (I don't think Vans sells these sizes) and use them where a
'little' longer rivet might help.
Two reasons:
1. The hole in the double dimpled joint does not have nice, parallel
sides, and the rivet must "swell" more to fill up the hole. More swelling,
less effective rivet length.
2. More room for error in timing of the rivet gun burst. With a longer
effective length, you can end up with a more 'squished' (technical term
...:^) shop head with a larger than 1.5 diameter, and still be greater than
the minimum height. This can help with a less experienced rivet setter ...
little over-driven is OK as long as no cracks appear (I've never had one
crack yet)
Of course, all this is within reason, and a longer rivet will be more
likely to "tip over" and become a reject. I don't back-rivet my skins, and
have had no trouble with these slightly longer rivets folding over.
>
>Should the height of the dimpled shop head have be measured from the flat
sheet surface (as a gauge would measure it), or from the lip of the
protruding dimple? Van's manual, CAM 18, and AC 43-13 all conveniently
avoid any dimensioned diagrams of double dimple rivet joints. If the
measurement should be of the exposed shop head only, then a different rivet
gage for double dimple joints should be made that adds the dimension of the
dimple protrusion to the 1/2d shop head to get total height above the sheet.
This one is easy. The Specs. call for shop head sizes, not what the
Avery guage measures! The answer is "measure from the bottom of the formed
rivet" Some of the better texts do show this, and has been discussed in
the RV list archives.
>
>Darrell Anderson
>RV-4
>Montana .....-30 F last night!
>
... hope this helps .... Gil (measure it) Alexander
RV6A, #20701 ... just made a new empanage intersection fairing
FREE OFFER UPDATE:
All 16 requests so far for the Riveting MIL-Spec have been mailed,
including one to Canada, and one to England. Thanks to Brian Yablon (and
to the FAA for getting me a better copy to scan), this spec. should be
on-line soon, so save your SASEs, and I'll post the location as soon as
it's available.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net> |
>
>Concerning that ELT that used regular Duracells. Can't remember the name of
>it, but it is the one with the remote annunciator. I had that one in my RV.
> The Duracells were cheap, but the battery in the annunciator was very
>expensive. It gets replaced with the Duracells. As I remember, the total
>cost for batteries about equaled the price of a regular ELT battery.
My manual for the AmeriKing AK-450 states that "under normal use"
the Duracell batteries are good for 4 years, and that the lithium battery
is good for 8 (yes eight) years.
This _has_ to work out cheaper than the other ELT custom batteries
that are only good for 2 years at about a $40 replacement cost.
If yours was the ACK ELT with Duracells, this is a good reason to
buy the AmeriKing one ...:^)
....... Gil (I bought one) Alexander
RV6A, #20701
gila(at)flash.net
RV6A, #20701
>Dave, RV-6, built, Flew, Sold, Repeat offender?
Did you fly it for more than 8 years ...:^)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RCB <snaproll(at)rmi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
Darrell L. Anderson wrote:
>>>snip, snip, snip....
> Should the height of the dimpled shop head have be measured from the flat sheet
surface (as a gauge would measure it), or from the lip of the protruding dimple?
>>>snip
I'm nothin' like an ole timer at this, but... the height measures the
shop head only and not the height of the dimple above the surrounding
surface. I have been racking my brain (it hurts) to
remember where I read that reference! Maybe it was the paper that came
with the guage from Avery.
I'll bet somebody else on here can help out with a reference to the
Mil-Spec tolerances for a driven rivet.
I'm like Orville and Wilber. I had to choose between a wife or an
airplane... so if I have to drill out a few... What else was I going to
do with my time anyway? :)
> Montana .....-30 F last night!
We're in a heat wave here in Colorado Springs... Only -9 last night and
a balmy -3 for the high today.
Too danged cold to do anything but lurk around the list!
Roy
#80096
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
> Now, back to building)
>Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
Now THAT sounds like a plan. I've just spent 6 hours in the garage,
finishing up my elevators finally!
The only reason I sent the "...i'm sorry" is because of the term "eloquent"
and "...if you want to get nasty go to rec..." immediately following my
point of view . I figured either you agreed with it, or you were doing a
very nice bit of sarcasm (which may well be deserved, my comment was rather
strong but the truth of what happened to two fellow RV'ers here on the list).
Now, back to building...so how much travel do *you* need on your elevator
trim for the entire flight envelope ?
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q Project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last updated 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 photos)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
aol.com!RV6DD(at)matronics.com wrote:
**snip**
> Use soapy water and check
> everywhere for leaks. What could be simpler? Or did I miss something.
>
> Dave, RV-6, Built, Flew, Sold, Haven't been sued yet, Repeat Offender?
Dave that is about the way I checked my tanks, only I did not use
the balloon, Wasn't smart enough to think of that in the old days :-)
just plugged the holes and turned the regulator down to 1 lb. on the
compressor, and just enough air to have positive pressure in the tank,
than sprayed with soap water, eight years later no leaks yet
(knock on wood) and no slosh coming off yet, (keeping fingers crossed)
so far no signs of it coming loose at all.
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4131rb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
Ron,
I cant speak for anyone else because every airplane flies differently. But I
can tell you my RV4 flies level with no heavy wing tendencies. I generally
switch between LH and RH fuel tank every half hour. I do find if I burn on
one side for an hour the opposite side will start to become a little heavier.
Generally I can let go of the stick and unfold my map using rudder only when
the airplane is trimed. I did buy the bias spring set up for mine and never
bothered installing it, however Ive been told by other RV pilots I fly with
it works well. Its simple and cheap! Hope to have been of some help.
Ryan B RV4131RB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bennett(at)healey.com.au |
| Subject: | Re[2]: GLASTARNET: Radios etc.(chatter) |
> sectionals and a flare pencil in my Jep case. I fly a twin so it is not
> likely that I will ever need them but, it is comforting having them on the
Definition of a light twin - an aircraft fitted with two engines such
that if one fails, the other will transport the aircraft safely to
the crash site.
(This is a Nomex joke - guaranteed not to propagate flames. Some of
my best friends fly twins. Honest)
Peter Bennett
Sydney Australia
RV6 working inside fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Hitchings" <wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting Rivets |
Hi there
I strongly considered sending this directly to George Orndorff, but thought
that the topic might be of assistance and interest to other
builders/wannabe's.
A friend (yeah, though I'm an atorney, I do have one!) building an RV-6 has
requested me to ask whether it is really nec. to shorten the rivets for the
main spar. He points out the George O. does not mention this in his
(strictly entertaining) video.
Thanks
Brian Hitchings
wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
South Africa, sweating it out in the middle of summer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
>Bob,
>
>it distresses me greatly that this should happen. I read your postings with
>great interest and your advice has prevented me from making many simple
>mistakes (a have a talent for making the really big goofs despite the best
>advice).
>
>Bob, stick around (I haven't finished my RV yet :-) ).
Royce,
Thanks for the support and the nice comments. Hey, I haven't finished my
RV, either (2nd). I will be working on the Glastar until I move this
summer. Then I'll have to set up shop. Don't know when I'll get back to
work on my RV-6:( Might have to do some trout fishing and that will slow me
down even more.
Thanks, Bob BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Greeno" <greenol(at)roberts.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting Rivets |
I have just finished riveting my RV-6 spars using the Avery hand
riveting tool and a 4lb. hammer. I followed Justice instructions as
well as Van's manual. It was noted in Justice that some builders
have successfully riveted w/o cutting about 48 rivets per spar that
were just a tad long (.032 or so). However, it was recommended that
they be cut. I started riveting without
cutting them; no good. The shop head went off center. After 4
tries, I decided I needed everything working in my favor. I cut all
96 of the rivets that were just a tad long, and had no further
problem. Fortunately, I was able to remove the 4 bad rivets using
the method described by Tony B. in the May 93 issue of Sport
Aviation. He writes a very helpful article with photos on spar
riveting.
From: "Brian Hitchings" <mail.roberts.edu!matronics.com!lantic.co.za!wbgroup>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Cutting Rivets
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:53:37 +0200
Hi there
I strongly considered sending this directly to George Orndorff, but thought
that the topic might be of assistance and interest to other
builders/wannabe's.
A friend (yeah, though I'm an atorney, I do have one!) building an RV-6 has
requested me to ask whether it is really nec. to shorten the rivets for the
main spar. He points out the George O. does not mention this in his
(strictly entertaining) video.
Thanks
Brian Hitchings
wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
South Africa, sweating it out in the middle of summer.
Lawrence J. Greeno
Vice President for Planned Giving
Roberts Wesleyan College
2301 Westside Dr.
Rochester, NY 14624
e-mail greenol(at)roberts.edu
PH:716-594-6500 FAX:716-594-6371
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: Eyeballing It. |
Mark D Hiatt writes:
I've seen
airplanes with fifty rivets on one side, and fifty-two on the other.
Maybe
that's okay, I dunno.
Hmm, I guess that puts me out of the running for an award this year.
I'm pretty sure my left wing is different from my right and I have an
extra rivet or two on the left side of my fuselage.
Come to think of it, if I built another, it would be different again.
I think the point is that Van's design is a relatively "robust" design.
By that I don't mean its built like a brick sh*thouse (U.K. expression
meaning its sorta big and strong), although I've heard the spar
referred to in similar a way. What I mean is that it is, and has to be,
able to handle the multple variables put into it by the multiple
builders and still deliver on its design intent...which it does
admirably.
If you want to count rivets, thats fine too. I also agree that "good
enough" can be an excuse for not doing it properly, that's why I had
everyone and their son look over mine during the 5 years it took to
build and wasn't shy about asking questions or taking advice.
Ken
RV6A Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E Steffens" <resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
Ron Dunn wrote:
1) Is Aileron trim a highly desirable option?
2) What is the "spring thing" and is there a drawing of such an arrangement?
I got the electric aileron trim option with my wing kit (RV6). I
decided not to use it because it didn't seem worth the trouble and I
did not want the tab hanging on the aileron. I still thought aileron
trim would be nice so I got the parts for the spring trim option (they
come with drawings). When I had my wings on the fuse and was fitting
up the controls I decided that I did not like the little lever between
the seats the works the spring mechanism (and I had those left and
right buttons on the stick). I still had the servo for the electric
aileron trim, so I used it to operate the spring mechanism. I made a
bracket for the servo from plate and angle, mounted it between the
seat ribs. I used safety wire to attach the springs to the arm of the
servo on which I bolted a small piece of 1/8" angle. Now I have
electic aileron trim without the stuff in the aileron. The springs
hold the stick in the center. The servo moves the 'center' position
slightly to effect trim. Full movement is available at any time with
minimal force. The springs also keep the ailerons and sticks from
flopping back and forth. I works out fairly simple once you actually
start doing it.
Dick Steffens RV6 wings and engine on...fly by summer...hope
North Carolina resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | d shipman <innovate(at)dallas.net> |
Les:
Keep it clean daddy-o.
I get enough of the foul language looking at girlie pictures on
the usenet! :)
David Shipman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Timothy J. Etherington" <tjetheri(at)cca.rockwell.com> |
A couple of questions and then some observations.
In the plans for the pre-punched wing kits they show a view of the end of the
wing laminations. It shows the dots and markings punched in the ends. The
picture seems to math my spar but the text says that the single dots should be
on the top and the double dots are on the bottom (or maybe it is the other way
around) anyway my spar does not seem to match the text. You would think that at
this point I would be better at this stuff. If I put the dots the way the text
calls out the pre-cut end for incidence does not line up so I must have it
right. Can anyone verify this?
On the bulkhead that comes with the wing, the instructions are the most brief
and incomplete I have seen to data. With all the holes predone (I have verified
all the holes are there from the drawings) do I just prep, prime and rivet the
obvious places (all except the ones that bolt it to the wing spars and splice
plates) or do I wait to do this until some time later when I have the fuselage?
Thanks in advance for the help.
Now on some observations first on ELT's. As a member of Civil Air Patrol who
regularly comes looking for elt's, we do have finds and saves every month
somewhere in the US. If you fly in harsh terrain, the elt could easily save
your life if you survive the crash. Here in Iowa most accidents are within
sight of a farm so you will be seen even sooner :) To be effective, you need to
file a flight plan though. The problem is that there are so many false ELT
signals that the Air Force will not send out rescue forces without other
evidence or at least two to three passes of the satellite. They will call to
all the FBO's in the area to make sure that the ELT is not on a field some
where. I have seen enough good reports to say that an ELT is good insurance.
Also from a standpoint of how to be found if you don't survive, think about
your realitives not knowing what happened or where you are. An ELT is still
needed IMHO.
For cockpit mounting, make sure that it is not in a place to be easily bumped.
I have found many airplanes and even chased you to an airport once, that have
cockpit mounted ELT's where the pilots knee easily hits the ELT. The ELT goes
off on a regular basis.
Enough said.
Tim Etherington
tjetheri(at)cca.rockwell.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Scales/ElecFlaps |
<<
Can anyone out there give me some info/phone #'S on small scales (mixing
small amounts of expoxy's etc) and Elec linear activators for flaps?
tu >>
A cheap but fairly accurate balance beam scale. Picture the "scales of
justice" that you see on various lawyerTV shows. You know like Perry Mason.
A balance beam has the same weight on both sides so you don't worry about
more weight in the beam(stick) on one side. A one-to-one ratio and not a 10
to one.
Get a stick about 15 inches long,some clean,empty yogert cups, a couple
lengths of safty wire and a handfull of those screws that come with the RV
kit.
I used yogert cups because they are light and easy to obtain. Hang a cup on
each end of the stick with the wire. One cup is for a known number of those
screws and the other cup is for weighing and mixing the Proseal. (and
throwing away after). The screws are all the same size so use 2 screws for
the black stuff and add 20 more for the white stuff (10 to 1; hay). Find the
middle of the stick and hang the contraption from that middle so the whole
beam thing can tip toward one cup or the other (Balance it). Keep that
balance point. 2 and 20 screws gives you a golf ball size glob of proseal.
Accuracy depends on keeping the friction low and not losing the balance
point.
Gene CAFGEF@ aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
Ron;
For what it's worth, I put the spring bias thing on my RV6 for aileron
trim. I am glad that I did, because it does the job, cost little, easy to
install, light wt. and non-high tech. I normally switch tanks each 30 min.
on x-country and this lessens the need for trim change, but then I don't
always fly with full tanks and I always t.o. with the left tank, so it
doesn't stay even. Also, and this may be a peculiarity of my specific
airframe, I find that the roll parameter is the hardest to keep stable when
flying, even with the trim. So yes, I would consider aileron trim as highly
desirable.
The spring thing was depicted in a past RVator. It is a connection with
wire and spring to the bottom of the control stick (under the pan) with a
lever on top of the pan, movement of the lever left or right changes the
spring loading on the stick which therefore uses the aileron itself for
trim. The stick pressure to override it is insignificant and the stick
movement due to trim is almost unnoticeable. Don't let this spring pressure
thing on the control stick scare you, it was used in the F-4, and that
wasn't exactly under engineered.
John Darby RV6 N61764 flying
Stephenville TX
johnd@our-town.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sburch(at)norfolk.infi.net (stan burchett) |
| Subject: | Re: Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
>
>I made a few phone calls to the NYS tax department to see exactly what
>the LAW says we need to do when building our RV's. Whether or not we
>want to follow it is a different story... you play the game and you
>take your chances!
>
>Here's the scoop on what you have to do to be totally legal in the
>eyes of NEW YORK STATE authorities:
>
>You must pay tax on EVERYTHING you buy out of state if you bring it INTO
>the state and "OWN & CONTROL" that property in that state. This is a
>"USE TAX", not a "SALES TAX". It just so happens that use tax = sales tax
>in amount (it's really the same thing with a different name).
>
(snip)
There's a landmark Supreme Court decision..the National Bella Hess case..I
think in the 1970s, that denied States the right to collect Sales Tax on
interstate, so called mail order transactions, unless the seller has an
office/whse/whatever presence (called nexus) in the shipto state.
This probably explains NYS switch to 'Use Tax' terminology. The governing
statute is broadly written in that everything from a toothpick to a
Mercedes is taxable, giving them the flexability to target high ticket
items only and to collect on any items a consumer is foolish enough to
volenteer.
Don't make it simple for the bureaucratic parasites to suck your blood.
Stan
RV6a fus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4mtcom AB <jamtcom(at)pocab.se>?= |
| Subject: | Re: FUELTANK LEAK |
J=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4mtcom AB ?= wrote:
>
> I just finished my first fuel tank for my RV-6 and it has a leak on
> the vs112, drain fuel, flange. I then added more prosil around it.
> My question is: should I add some sloching from the inside or just
> let it be. I feel unsecure about the sloching in the tank, am I right?
> I use the baloon-trick with soapwater.
>
> my e-mail is: jamtcom(at)pocab.se
>
> Leif Stener
> RV-6 builder in Sweden.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com> |
I think the RV3 is on hold until all the spar issues are worked out.
> I noticed that Van does not include the RV-3 in the current magazine
> advertisements. Do you know if this will change or have plans etc. been
> discontinued.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> David Shipman
> innovate(at)dallas.net
> >>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cutting Rivets |
| From: | ab6a(at)juno.com (ALLAN E POMEROY) |
Hi Brian,
There have been several posts in the last few days regarding
rivet lengths. An excessively long rivet will have a tendency to bend
over when driving it and after removing it, you end up with the head of
a miniature golf club before they put the face on it. FWIW, my
experience has been that using a rivet cutter (the type that looks like
pliers with the circular cutting head) will leave a burr on the shank of
the rivet. We all know that BURRS ARE BAD! Hope this helps.
Allan Pomeroy Central NY
AB6A(at)juno.com
Riveting HS skeleton
writes:
>
>
>Hi there
>
>I strongly considered sending this directly to George Orndorff, but
>thought
>that the topic might be of assistance and interest to other
>builders/wannabe's.
>
>A friend (yeah, though I'm an atorney, I do have one!) building an
>RV-6 has
>requested me to ask whether it is really nec. to shorten the rivets
>for the
>main spar. He points out the George O. does not mention this in his
>(strictly entertaining) video.
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Brian Hitchings
>wbgroup(at)lantic.co.za
>South Africa, sweating it out in the middle of summer.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: FUELTANK LEAK |
I'd let the proseal cure and test it again, and call it good if
it didn't leak.
If you want to use sloshing compound, I'd just use a small brush
to paint some around the flange only (after the proseal is fully
cured of course).
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
> > I just finished my first fuel tank for my RV-6 and it has a leak on
> > the vs112, drain fuel, flange. I then added more prosil around it.
> > My question is: should I add some sloching from the inside or just
> > let it be. I feel unsecure about the sloching in the tank, am I right?
> > I use the baloon-trick with soapwater.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HARRY PAINE <HPair(at)ix.netcom.com> |
-- [ From: HARRY PAINE * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
TOOL LIST FOR SALE
Harry Paine
477 printz rd
Arroyo Grande Cal 93420
805-481-2524
90% angle drills 1/4 28 thread rebuilt---------------------- -----------
225.00*
45% angle drills 1/4 28 thread rebuilt -------------------- -----------
225.00*
Pistol grip small palm drill 3/8 chuck jiffy cleco IR rebuilt - 100.00**
3X & 4X Rivet guns C/P US Ind Cleco___ ________125.00
C squeeze MODEL 114 C C/P or Us Ind 1 1/2" yoke _____275.00**
Alligator Squeeze 114 C standard yoke ____275.00**
Drills 6" and 12" 1
.00 -2.00
Bucking bars used ----------------------------------------------------- -
--8.00**
rivet sets used -------------------------------- - --------
------4.50
microstop counter sinks--------------------------------- ---used-----------
-12.50
Flush Rivet set with rubber guard extra wide 1 1/4 " wide much nicer than
Averys. This is the best I've even seen while they last $10.00
# 8 nut plate jig ..............................................
..........12.00
15 mil thick 3M Alum sound damping tape (used on 767) 9" wide not
available anywhere else other than 3M Sold by linear foot minimum 10' order
1.00/ln. ft.
All Items tools guaranteed 30 days or your money back. Items sold and
shipped UPS COD
Cash or certified check.
** Limited Availability sold on a first come first serve basis.
Email Harry Paine @
Hpair(at)ix.netcom.com
or call 805-481-2524 & leave message
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
stan burchett wrote:
>
>
> >
> >I made a few phone calls to the NYS tax department to see exactly what
> >the LAW says we need to do when building our RV's. Whether or not we
> >want to follow it is a different story... you play the game and you
> >take your chances!
> >
> >Here's the scoop on what you have to do to be totally legal in the
> >eyes of NEW YORK STATE authorities:
> >
> >You must pay tax on EVERYTHING you buy out of state if you bring it INTO
> >the state and "OWN & CONTROL" that property in that state. This is a
> >"USE TAX", not a "SALES TAX". It just so happens that use tax = sales tax
> >in amount (it's really the same thing with a different name).
> >
> (snip)
>
>
> Don't make it simple for the bureaucratic parasites to suck your blood.
>
> Stan
> RV6a fus
As has been pointed out in previous postings ... When you register your
finished plane the Tax man is notified and you will, repeat will get a
letter to collect the "USE TAX"
and you will now owe hefty fines on the delayed payment. All in all it
is easier, simpler and cheaper to pay as you receive each kit.
PLEASE CAN WE TALK BUILDING THE RV's AGAIN :)
--
Rick Osgood
Hennipen Technical College
Eden Prairie, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne) |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Hi all,
Why all the testing of fuel tanks under pressure???
My "spam can" would certainly fail all your tests as no pressure can be built up
in the fuel tanks unless something is wrong.
As you probably know, Beech tanks are really just big baggies. They have a hole
in them which is connected to a 1/4 inch tube that allows any pressure build up
to vent to the outdoors.
Don't RV tanks have vents??
A heavy steel oil drum, filled to the brim and set in the sun, will get close to
popping if not vented.
I suppose the quick build's tanks are already *LEAK* tested?
>I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble to put anything over
>the filler cap while pressure testing the tanks. You need to test the cap
>for leaks. My only leak was the center of the cap itself.
Hal Kempthorne halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. (SJC)
Debonair N6134V RV-6AQ on order!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4mtcom AB <jamtcom(at)pocab.se>?= |
| Subject: | Leaking fueltank |
Here is my second letter about my problem. I just finished my first
fueltank for my RV-6 and it has a leak on the VA112, drain flange.
I then added more prosil around it on the outside. my question is:
should I add sloching from the inside or perhaps more prosil. I heard
that sloching can be trouble. I hope you can read and understand my
english.
My e-mail is: jamtcom(at)pocab.se
Leif Stener RV-6 builder in Sweden.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mauser(at)Claris.COM (Richard Chandler) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig Construction |
> Another good idea in jig material is to use Cedar. I bought very
> straight 18 ft long 2x10's. Worked great. Cedar won't warp, it's
> light, and it smells great.
You can also take your less than 100% straight wood and rent or buy (Beg,
Borrow, Steal?) a planer/jointer and a thickness planer. If you're sure the
wood is dry and stabilized, you can work wonders on it with these tools.
(What can I say, I watch New Yankee Workshop, with Norm "Never met a power
tool I didn't like" Abram. I'm building a pretty similar collection. I mean,
I'm at the point where the tool corral at HomeBase doesn't even really tempt
me any more.... well, not much.).
The important thing is buy wood well before you need it, and stack it properly
so it dries out and stays straight. Alternatively, the laminated plywood
beams that some builders have been using for their jigs sounds like a good,
strong, but somewhat expensive option.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Immelmann(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
<< Advise please from flying RVers.
1) Is Aileron trim a highly desirable option?
2) What is the "spring thing" and is there a drawing of such an arrangement?
Thanks for your input.
Ron
Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78] >>
Is anybody flying with a wing leveler or autopilot out there?
If so, what did you do for aileron trim?
Ed
tailkit in hand, gathering tools
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leaking fueltank |
Brushing one or two coatings of 'slosh' on top of the proseal
(i.e. on the seams and around the rivits) is what I did.
Just let the proseal cure for about a week or two, as it is very slow
to cure.
I did this by reaching in the access hole befor I closed it up.
If the tank is closed up and you have a leak, you can probably direct
some slosh on the problem area with a funnel and short hose.
Some have also used the 'wicking' type of Locktite to wick up into
the problem rivet to seal it. This can be done from the outside.
I think the main problem with 'slosh' is when you slosh the entire
tank and then the slosh was peeling off of the aluminum in big sheets.
There is no need to have slosh on all the aluminum.
>
> Here is my second letter about my problem. I just finished my first
> fueltank for my RV-6 and it has a leak on the VA112, drain flange.
> I then added more prosil around it on the outside. my question is:
> should I add sloching from the inside or perhaps more prosil. I heard
> that sloching can be trouble. I hope you can read and understand my
> english.
>
> My e-mail is: jamtcom(at)pocab.se
>
> Leif Stener RV-6 builder in Sweden.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Reisdorfer <73101.73(at)CompuServe.COM> |
>>orrig post by: rdunn(at)ionet.net (Ron Dunn)>>
<>
<>
Ron,
Yes received my wing kit a week ago with the wing spars, BTW they look
great IMOH... The rest of the kit looks nice as well, nothing was back ordered.
Mark Reisdorfer
73010.73(at)compuserve.com
#80020
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Reisdorfer <73101.73(at)CompuServe.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
<>
<>
Ron,
I too orderd the electric aileron trim but the kit for the trim appears to be
for the manual trim, the instructions and plans talk about manual trim etc....
have been on the road and have not been able to get with Van's yet.
I have a buddy who has installed trim on every control surface, built in just
like the elevator and each controlable with a MAC servo. I like the way they
turned out and was thinking about building my aileron trim in the same manner.
Mark Reisdorfer
73101.73(at)compuserve.com
#80020
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au> |
My sincere opologies to all on list for the use of an off colour expression
yesterday. I was verey frustrated with my self for doing something stupid
and just fired away with out thinking.
Once again my opologies
Les Rowles
6 empenage started.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
>
>
> Why all the testing of fuel tanks under pressure???
>
> Don't RV tanks have vents??
>
> >I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble to put anything over
> >the filler cap while pressure testing the tanks. You need to test the cap
> >for leaks. My only leak was the center of the cap itself.
>
>
> Hal Kempthorne halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. (SJC)
> Debonair N6134V RV-6AQ on order!
>
>
Since it was my post that seems to have sparked these subsequent
posts, I'll take a stab at some comments.
First, RV tanks do have vents. They are plugged during this testing.
Testing the fuel tanks with pressure allows the builder to determine
if they have any leaks in the construction such as by the rivets in
the stiffeners or around the end ribs.
I suspect that every fuel cap out there is going to leak, especially
as the O-ring ages. Since during normal operation, and more importantly,
during normal storage, the fuel cap is at the top of the tank, nothing
can leak out of tank. The only potential times for the cap to leak
would be when the fuel is pressing on the cap (e.g. inverted) or if
the slipstream over the cap caused a low enough pressure to suck fuel
out of the tank. Again, fuel would have to be against the cap for
the air pressure to be able to suck it out.
I wanted to know if there were any leaks, even very small ones in
my tank. Testing the way I stated allowed me to verify that the
tank held pressure for over three days with no noticeable change in
the size of the balloon. This makes me quite confident in the
construction of the tank.
I have no idea if the Quickbuild kits have had their tanks
tested. Can anyone else comment to this?
Finally, as I thought about the fuel tanks today, it has
occurred to me that the -6's and the -6A's fuel caps will be at
slightly different positions when parked on the ramp. Does
this effect how full you can fill the tank? I suspect it's
not much since I believe the tail is only seven inches higher
on the -6A as compared to the -6.
Doug Medema. RV-6A.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills) |
| Subject: | Re: Tools for sale |
> TOOL LIST FOR SALE
>
>Harry Paine
>477 printz rd
>Arroyo Grande Cal 93420
>805-481-2524
Anyone on the list know Harry, or know of him and can recommend him? These
prices sound pretty reasonable to me.
No flames for the commercialism from me if he is reputable.
Mike Wills
RV-4(wings)
willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash) |
| Subject: | FS:JPI 200-C-6 EGT-CHT SCANNER |
Those of you familiar with these know they are TSO'd and of the
highest quality. They differ from the JPI-700 in that they are
scanning only the EGT,CHT and monitor volts. The USED -6C that I
have, (12/28 volts), has provision for 6 EGT and 2 CHT+Volts and uses
16 probes for 2 6 cylinder engines. I only have the probes for one
engine, (8). You would have to buy the rest from JPI if you have a
twin. It is in good condition and the instrument has just been to JPI
for update and checkout and not used since. It has the manual. The
twin kit sells for $1695 from JPI, the single sells for $1256. I
will sell my setup for half of the single kit price: $625 plus shi.
(About $10). I have another insrument same decription as above, no
harness/probes, etc that I would sell for $450 plus shi.......
Bill Nash
AIRCRAFT REMANUFACTURING
1291 E.Vista Way, #150
VISTA, CA. 92084 (619) 749 0239 FAX: 749 6384
Aviation Parts Sales Directory: Infobot(at)pdsig.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | Use tax question... |
Re: Use tax
What if I live in Massachusetts, take delivery of a kit and dutifully
pay my tax, and then move to another state (say, New York). Do I pay
use tax again? Or can I show the new state that I've already been
bilked once?
Let's say I never paid Massachusetts, but upon entering New York, I
sent a check to Albany. Do I owe Massachusetts anything for the time
I "used" my empennage kit in MA? I'm interested in the legally
correct answer, not the obvious (and practical ;-) ) "Whose gonna
know?"
-Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com
Framingham, MA
RV6A #24751
Hanging elevators on HS tonight...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
Hi again, Harry. My CP squeezer rebuild is still working great.
Set me up with a 45% angle drill, flush rivet set, nutplate jig, and 20'
of tape if it's nice and light.
Mitchell Faatz
c/o Sagent Technology
2225 East Bayshore Road Suite 100
Palo Alto, CA
94303
>----------
>From: HARRY PAINE[SMTP:ix.netcom.com!HPair(at)matronics.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 7:16 AM
>To: RVlist; Rocket List
>Subject: RV-List: Tools for sale
>
>
>-- [ From: HARRY PAINE * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
> TOOL LIST FOR SALE
>
>Harry Paine
>477 printz rd
>Arroyo Grande Cal 93420
>805-481-2524
>
>90% angle drills 1/4 28 thread rebuilt---------------------- -----------
>225.00*
>45% angle drills 1/4 28 thread rebuilt -------------------- -----------
>225.00*
>Pistol grip small palm drill 3/8 chuck jiffy cleco IR rebuilt - 100.00**
>3X & 4X Rivet guns C/P US Ind Cleco___ ________125.00
>C squeeze MODEL 114 C C/P or Us Ind 1 1/2" yoke _____275.00**
>Alligator Squeeze 114 C standard yoke ____275.00**
>Drills 6" and 12" 1
>.00 -2.00
>Bucking bars used ----------------------------------------------------- -
>--8.00**
>rivet sets used -------------------------------- - --------
>------4.50
>microstop counter sinks--------------------------------- ---used-----------
>-12.50
>Flush Rivet set with rubber guard extra wide 1 1/4 " wide much nicer than
>Averys. This is the best I've even seen while they last $10.00
># 8 nut plate jig ..............................................
>..........12.00
>15 mil thick 3M Alum sound damping tape (used on 767) 9" wide not
>available anywhere else other than 3M Sold by linear foot minimum 10' order
> 1.00/ln. ft.
>
>
>All Items tools guaranteed 30 days or your money back. Items sold and
>shipped UPS COD
>Cash or certified check.
>
>** Limited Availability sold on a first come first serve basis.
>
>Email Harry Paine @
>Hpair(at)ix.netcom.com
>or call 805-481-2524 & leave message
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
>> TOOL LIST FOR SALE
>>
>>Harry Paine
>>477 printz rd
>>Arroyo Grande Cal 93420
>>805-481-2524
>
>
>>>Anyone on the list know Harry, or know of him and can recommend him?
>>>>>These prices sound pretty reasonable to me.
>>>No flames for the commercialism from me if he is reputable.
>>>
>>>Mike Wills
I've never met him, but I bought a rebuilt CP pneumatic squeezer from
him and it's been working great since. He even called me a week or two
later to see if it was working well for me and if I had any questions.
I'm a happy customer, and hopefully snagged what I needed to out of this
batch before you guys responded! ;)
--------------------- cut here
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
>
>RV-4(wings)
>willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chinkley(at)ix.netcom.com (Curtis R. Hinkley) |
You wrote:
>
>
>Ron Dunn wrote:
>>
>>
>> Have any of you forty or so RV-8 builders on the list, received your
wing spars yet???? I haven't heard a peep from the list. And I'm sure
sick and tired of liability and taxes. Shhheeeeshh.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
>> rdunn(at)ionet.net
>> Broken Arrow, OK
>
>Ron,
>
>I talked to Tom @ Vans and he said they sent out six spars the week
>before last. Evidently they were not yours or mine. Worked out and
>waiting!
>
>Louis Smith
>lsmith(at)coastalnet.com
>RV-8 #80126 N801RV reserved
>
Ron & Louis,
Sorry you havent received your spars yet, everyone east of the
Mississippi and 25mi north of TYI received their spars before
Christmas. Sorry for his short note, the truck with my RV8A fuse kit
just pulled up and I need to unload it.
Just dreaming.
Curtis Hinkley
RV8 #80015
hinkleyc(at)fca.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Use tax question... |
Brian Yablon wrote:
>
>
> Re: Use tax
>
> What if I live in Massachusetts, take delivery of a kit and dutifully
> pay my tax, and then move to another state (say, New York). Do I pay
> use tax again? Or can I show the new state that I've already been
> bilked once?
>
> Let's say I never paid Massachusetts, but upon entering New York, I
> sent a check to Albany. Do I owe Massachusetts anything for the time
> I "used" my empennage kit in MA? I'm interested in the legally
> correct answer, not the obvious (and practical ;-) ) "Whose gonna
> know?"
>
> -Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com
> Framingham, MA
> RV6A #24751
> Hanging elevators on HS tonight...
No, Use tax payed in one state is not recollected in another. Keep the
papers that say you paid the MA "Abuse Tax"
--
Rick Osgood
Hennipen Technical College
Eden Prairie, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca (joehine) |
| Subject: | Re: Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
bunch off stuff cut out
>You pay the tax for the STATE (which is 3%) AND also for the COUNTY
>(in my case, Dutchess County is 4.25%).
bunch more stuff deleted
Sigh!!!
When we bring our kits into this part of Canada (and tools, parts, hardwear
and everything else) we have to pay at the border or to the customs broker
7% federal goods and services tax on the -Canadian dollar value- of the
goods then we pay 11% provincal sale tax on that total. This amounts to tax
on tax.
If we can find a Canadian supplier for the parts in another province we can
avoid the provincal part of the tax. Like NY, we are suppost to pay when we
bring it into the province but there is very little complyance with this.
Again like the US the provincal tax people will come and ask for the tax
when the aircraft is registered. You then have to enter into discussions
and show that you have paid the tax on the parts. Unless you brought the
parts with you when you moved into the provance.
Get an idea where our "free" health care comes from.
I think it is all worth it though when we are finished.
Cheers
joe
C-FYTQ RV4 - finishing up and waiting till the snow goes!!!
joehine(at)nbnet.nb.ca 13 James St.
506-452-1072 Home Douglas, NB
506-452-3495 Work Canada, E3A 7Z2
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Leaking fueltank |
leak on the VA112, drain flange.
>I then added more prosil around it on the outside. my question is:
>should I add sloching from the inside or perhaps more prosil. I heard
>that sloching can be trouble.
>Leif Stener RV-6 builder in Sweden.
>
Leif,
Dabbing Proseal on the outside of a leak is not a very elegant solution. I
would be inclined to paint slosh on the inside as previously suggested or
drill out the drain flange and re-rivet it with fresh proseal under the flange.
Leo Davies
Sanding and filling the intersection fairing for the empennage (boy am I
glad this isnt a fibreglass aeroplane)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RodWoodard(at)aol.com |
Hello listers:
I called the Colorado Department of Revenue today to ask about sales/use
taxes for our kits/airplanes. As you might guess, I wasn't able to get a
straigt answer out of anybody. Colorado does have a law on the books which
exempts airplane _parts_ from sales and use taxes. The $40K question remains
as to whether or not they will consider our situation as an aircraft or
merely aircraft parts. My guess is that the final word will be that we'll owe
a "use tax" on the finished airplane and that's it.
The tax representative suggested I submit the matter for a "letter ruling" to
get a definitive answer for the situation I described. This is one time where
my occupation will come in handy... I can submit the letter ruling as a
hypothetical "I have a client who is doing this" question without drawing too
much attention on my own liesure activites. They say it'll take 2-3 weeks to
receive a response. I'll keep everyone posted.
FWIW, I also contacted a friend who put a Glasair into service about 3 years
ago. He said that he's never paid anything and has never been asked to pay
anything... Works for me!
Rod Woodard
Loveland, Colorado
RV-8, #80033
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mytyweav(at)aol.com |
Atta way. Lets talk about airplanes and forget about all the lawyer and tax
CRAP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mytyweav(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
ENOUGH ABOUT F------G TAXES. AREN'T WE ALL SMART ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE
SUBJECT OUR OWN SPECIAL WAY........? IF YOU POSSESS THE TECHNICAL SKILL AND
ABILITY TO BUILD AN RV,,,,,,,YOU SHOULD HAVE ON HAND THE MENTAL CAPABILITIES
TO WORK AROUND THE TAX BS. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT IS IN THE
THOUSANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
Tim --
Regarding the single vs. double dots -- the description in the manual is
confusing. The dots go to the center of the spar. That is, the flanges
on the top of the spar (let's say these have the single dot) have the dot
itself on the bottom of the flange.
You can only put it together one way so that it works right. All the dots
do is help you to group the 2 sets of 5 flanges together. Otherwise, do
what looks right so that all the predrilled holes line up properly, the
cut ends work, etc, and you'll be right. You'll find that there are actually
more holes in one of the flange sets (probably the bottom, cause it's longer).
> In the plans for the pre-punched wing kits they show a view of the end of the
> wing laminations. It shows the dots and markings punched in the ends. The
> picture seems to math my spar but the text says that the single dots should be
> on the top and the double dots are on the bottom (or maybe it is the other way
> around) anyway my spar does not seem to match the text.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-591-1037
Showpage Software, Inc. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg
14190 47th Ave N.
Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com> |
> I noticed that Van does not include the RV-3 in the current magazine
> advertisements. Do you know if this will change or have plans etc.
been
> discontinued.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> David Shipman
> innovate(at)dallas.net
>>
But did you notice that good looking RV-6 in the forground of Van's
advertisements? Its mine.:-)
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
> As I see my options,
> they are: 1) shut up and install the trim per plans, 2) redesign the tab
> like the elevator (tab built into and flush with the control surface), 3)
> install a spring arrangement, 4) don't install any aileron trim at all.
>
> 1) Is Aileron trim a highly desirable option?
> 2) What is the "spring thing" and is there a drawing of such an
arrangement?
Hi Ron. I think that aileron trim is VERY desirable. I purchased the manual
aileron trim ("spring thing") during construction, but didn't install it
until after the initial flights. (I wanted to get the airplane trimmed out
aerodynamically before the trim had a chance to influence things) This is a
6A BTW.
The airplane is VERY sensitive about the roll axis. (probably more so than a
-4 or -8, but the roll response is very light on all RV's) Just burning 15
minutes of fuel from one tank causes a noticeable roll toward the lighter
wing. The pressure required to maintain level flight is very light, but it
is noticeable.
The manual trim works very well. I have never had to turn the handle more
than 30 degrees or so from neutral, and usually only about 5-10. The
airplane is easily trimmed for any weight/fuel distribution. And, it's
cheap.
As far as manual vs electric goes, bear in mind that I am very K.I.S.S.
oriented. (see my previous posting on jigs) I utilized manual elevator trim,
manual aileron trim, 0320, and fixed pitch metal prop. If there was a choice
between two equally safe options, I went with the simpler of the two. I am
very happy with my choices, but my airplane may not have enough "gadgets" for
everyone.
IMHO, aileron trim is mandatory. Due to the small amount of input necessary
though, I don't see any reason for electric. (The button on the stick looks
cool however)
Ed Bundy RV6A flying
Eagle, ID
ebundy2620(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig Construction |
> They are I-beams that have a
> wafer(sp?) board web with flanges made with 1x1 lumber. The cost is
slightly
> higher than equivalent 2x lumber, but because the beams are so straight,
he
> had
> an easy time with squaring and leveling the jig.
>
> I built my jig with lumber that I bought well in advance to allow it to
> dry out completely. The side pieces that were straight when I bought
> them, were not so straight when it came time to build the jig. So I
> struggled.
I just want to comment on jigs in general. I've noticed a lot of people
fretting about building straight jigs even to the point of buying mega-buck
custom made steel versions. If one feels more comfortable buying a
laser-beam straight jig that's fine.
I worry about how this affects new builders (and hope-to-be builders). First
of all, the side pieces do not have to be perfectly straight. They should be
well dried so that they don't change dimension after the jig is constructed,
but all the jig does is HOLD the fuselage pieces in place. If the side
pieces aren't straight, you simply shim the cross pieces, using a string and
a level to put them in the same plane. (sorry about the pun). Now, assuming
you let the wood dry before building the jig, everything should stay that
way. I rechecked the alignment during various stages of construction and it
didn't change at all.
I built the jig out of regular lumber, (2X6 sides, 2X4 cross pieces) I didn't
use any built-up laminates, roof beams, railroad ties, or 4" square steel
tubing. I built the jig as per Van's instructions at a cost of $50, and a
construction time of 6 hours. My airplane came out straight, and flies
beautifully. The jig is now in the process of putting together another
fuselage for someone else. The jig had been partially disassembled when
stored, and required some slight shimming before starting fuselage #2. It
took about an hour to set it up and get it straight.
Again - I am not attempting to flame anyone that did it differently than I.
I just remember when I was first starting my project that I had an
irrational fear of jigs. If I had read some of the jig postings on the list
at that time I would have had a heart attack.
Jigs can be as simple or as complex as you want to make them. Me, I'd rather
spend the time flying...
Ed Bundy RV6A flying
Eagle, ID
ebundy2620(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
>Is anybody flying with a wing leveler or autopilot out there?
>If so, what did you do for aileron trim?
>Ed tailkit in hand, gathering tools
Ed, I'm using a Naviaid Devices wing leveler and it works very well. This
is the trim device. Nothing else is needed.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
>
>Hi,
>
>I have a mate who owns and flys an RV4 and is not on the net. But he is a
>ham radio operater. He has asked me to post this message asking if any of
>you people hapen to be ham operaters. If you are interested in supplying
>him your callsigns I would be pleased to pass them on to him.
>
>Cheers, Les Rowles.
>
Sure nz8r.
Dickhead doesn't bother me...
Oh and by the way building an rv6a tail done, finishing up on wings.
greg
>
>
Gregory W. Ratcliff
nz8r+@osu.edu
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | (Chat) Slow time & more (long) |
Bob Skinner writes:
> I bring up this point because I have noticed that some flying RVers' posts
> have become less and less frequent and, in fact, some of the "old timers"
> seemed to have quit posting all together. Well, if they receive posts
> similar to the one above, I can't blame them. I do correspond with a few
> "old listers" and some have indicated that they have been flamed or dumped
> on and don't need the grief.
[snip]
I've been a Compuserve member for about ten years, and for most of that
time I enjoyed the Motorsport forum (used to race cars before learning
which way up wings are supposed to be). In the last two years, Compuserve
has grown, and the number of people visiting the Motorsport forum has shot
up. The tone of postings dropped equally rapidly, and I no longer find it
fun, or even interesting, to go there. I haven't been back in about six
months. I would hate to see the RV list go the way that forum went.
Having said that, I know I've made one or two posts in haste myself.
Someone recently pointed out how easy it is to be misinterpreted in a
posting. It's also really easy to overstate your case. Perhaps the most
important thing is to try to keep that sense of community--it's contagious,
as a few days at Oshkosh demonstrates.
A long-time internet user once told me to "be conservative in what you send,
and liberal in what you accept." Good advice, I think (and _not_ meant to
be political :-).
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
[RV-6 plans]
________________________________________________________________________________
Mine was the ACK. Don't think the other one was out when I bought the ACK.
Took 4 years to build the RV-6 S/N 20294. Built my own spars. Very little
was pre-fabricated back then on the early kits. (Don't you just love words
that start with "PRE". Like pre-heat. Heat before you heat. Huh?) Flew
it for 2 years, 350 hours.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUELTANK LEAK |
No need to slosh, It does more harm than good. My 4 tank leaked after
sloshing. I cleaned the slosh off and prosealed. No leaks since.
Chris May
RV-4 N595CM
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First flight/canopy cover |
If you buy a cover for the RV-6 from A/C Spruce East (The Ex Alexander
Aeroplane), the cover was designed to fit the flip up canopy. They used my
RV for the pattern. Don't know how it would fit the slider, but, its a great
fit for the original flip up.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
The spring trim works great on the 6. One of the other benefits is that you
can use the lever as a reminder when to switch to the other fuel tank. When
you almost max out the travel in any direction, switch tanks. I've always
liked manually operated items in liew of electric. Be cautious of "Stray
Electrons"
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <James.E.Clark(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Yes, the QB tanks are sealed and leak tested.
James
James.E.Clark(at)worldnet.att.net
RV6AQ (N?????) --- Fuselage Skins
Archer II (N8211S) --- Flying
> popping if not vented.
>
> I suppose the quick build's tanks are already *LEAK* tested?
>
>
> Hal Kempthorne halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. (SJC)
> Debonair N6134V RV-6AQ on order!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
The reason you pressure test the tank is not to see if it will withstand the
pressure. It's so you can find and fix leaks before you put fuel in them.
It's a lot easier to fix leaks before they have fuel and it's a real pain in
the rear to have to stop flying and remove a tank for repairs. And BTW, the
vent on an RV is pointing forward to ensure a positive head pressure in the
tank. You definitly do not want a vaccum on the vent.
Another BTW, Pressure testing with soapy water is how we check for leaks at
the Airlines.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: To all RV builders who's planes are under construction (Especially |
RV-4's)
I completed my RV-4 in late 1995. Needless to say I spent a lot of time
flying in 1996. My 1st. trip across my F.A.A. ( no fly zone ) was to Sun N
Fun where I recieved the honors of " Best Metal Homebuilt" ( Big pat on the
back! ) I made it to Oshkosh, as well as several local flyins. What I want to
tell all of you builders out there is that of the 5 experimentals I have
owned the RV far exceeded all of my expectations I had of what the plane
would be like. You see I had never flown in a RV until I flew mine, and even
though I knew all the data on RV's, until you fly one , especially one you
created yourself there is no way to anticipate what it is like. 1996 will be
a year that I will never forget and every time I climb into my 4 the thrill
of true flying grows stronger. So keep pounding away at those rivits and cast
any doubts you have away, I guarantee you will have the time of your life
once you finish.
Chris May
RV-4 N595CM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "L. Coats" <lcoats(at)wave.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
>Ed Bundy wrote:
>
>The manual trim works very well.....
>IMHO, aileron trim is mandatory. Due to the small amount of input necessary
>though, I don't see any reason for electric. (The button on the stick looks
>cool however)
>
>
Well, I would have to agree with Ed here. The manual aileron trim is
simple to install (and retrofit), is light weight, needs no power source and
it works! Fuel burn and passenger weight does influence the "feel" through
the stick and it is neat to be able to trim the a/c hands off.
The only time I centralise the lever is on finals (low speed) if I have used
this device during flight.
Biggles RV6 150hr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Bad news from New York State tax department (real long!) |
>
>ENOUGH ABOUT F------G TAXES. AREN'T WE ALL SMART ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE
>SUBJECT OUR OWN SPECIAL WAY........? IF YOU POSSESS THE TECHNICAL SKILL AND
>ABILITY TO BUILD AN RV,,,,,,,YOU SHOULD HAVE ON HAND THE MENTAL CAPABILITIES
>TO WORK AROUND THE TAX BS. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT IS IN THE
>THOUSANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
>
Easy, fella, you might get a heart attack from all that excitement------
Seriously, a local T-18 builder valued his aircraft (for tax purposes) at
less than $1500 at tax time. He said he had built it from scrap metal he
had in his shop and all the instruments were rebuilt and homemade. The
engine was a runout engine he had sitting around for some time. I believe
he was truthful since I've known him for quite a long time and I doubt that
anyone else could get so much from so little. Some would say that he is
'cheap' but, of course, that is a qualitative judgement. Suffice it to say
that he used a hammer to drive all the driven rivets; didn't want to buy a
rivet gun.
With all that said, what is to stop anyone from saying that their aircraft
was built from scrap metal, etc. using plans only? Granted, it would be
dishonest and I'm sure we're all very honest and eager to give the
government as much as it wants (and maybe more, right??).
Personally, I know of a local builder that, when it came time to 'pay the
piper', told the tax man that the kit cost $8000 and that the instruments
and engine were from some 'old' parts and items sitting around the shop.
Most tax agents are happy to get whatever they can (within reason) and will
settle for much less than the true cost of the aircraft if you can give them
a 'logical and reasonable' figure.
I'm not advising anyone to try to cheat the tax man. However, you can
potentially save LOTS of money if you are willing to be creative in valuing
your aircraft. I, of course, would never do this and I am only discussing
this because of the educational value of the idea.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)seanet.com
3233 NE 95th St
Seattle WA, 98115 USA
RV-6 N16JA
First flight August 1990
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
Mark, Do you have any drawings or could you get any on how your friend
installed the trim for the rudder? Haven't seen anything on this subject. I
am considering this on my next "6"
Thanks, Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martinph(at)cyberbury.net |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
RV>> >I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble to put anything ove
RV>> >the filler cap while pressure testing the tanks. You need to test the ca
RV>> >for leaks. My only leak was the center of the cap itself.
RV>Doug Medema. RV-6A.
Doug
IT "is" important that the fuel cap not leak . when the a/c is stored
outdoors or tied down out on the ramp while away from the home hanger
the rain water has a chance to get in . especialy if the cap is not
covered with something while the a/c is tied down .
have a good one
Jeff Rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
>I noticed that Van does not include the RV-3 in the current magazine
>advertisements. Do you know if this will change or have plans etc. been
>discontinued.
>David Shipman
Dave, We are continuing to support those people who have progressed through
the wings. We will sell fuse and finish kits, but do not want to sell any
more wings until the spar is redesigned similar to the RV-8 spar. It is a
project that is on the drawing board (but not the highest priority), and we
will once again offer the -3 when the new spar is available. Please do not
call and ask when it will be available, because we do not know. When it
is, we will again start advertising and make note of it in the RVator. Bill
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
>
>Have any of you forty or so RV-8 builders on the list, received your wing
>spars yet???? I haven't heard a peep from the list. And I'm sure sick and
>tired of liability and taxes. Shhheeeeshh.
>Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
>
Ron, The RV-8 spars have started flowing. To date we have shipped 20 spar
sets. This has been very frustrating to us, as it has been to our
customers. Just hang in there. We are shipping in the order that people
have called informing us they are waiting for the spars. I am not going to
try and predict a rate for now. Lets wait a couple of weeks and you can ask
the question again. Thanks for your patience. Bill
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4131rb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
Ron,
One other thing to consider about the trim is a tandem airplane will be
affected less on the lateral axis than will a side by side. In other words in
a side by side if you are with a freind of the same weight your in balance,
If you fly solo you will be heavier on the side your flying from. A 6 or 6A
would be likely to require more frequent trim changes than a 4 or 8.
Ryan B RV4131RB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron spar reinf plate |
>
>A-408 is a spar reinforcement plate that is attached to each end of the
>Ailerons. The plate is fab'ed from .040 2024T3. Only problem is that I
>can't find any .040 in my wing kit. Any other RV-8 guys with wing kits get
>some .040 in your kits? I don't even find any on the parts list.
>
>
>Ron
>
>Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
>rdunn(at)ionet.net
>Broken Arrow, OK
Ron, Check the bags! Bill
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Benedict <billb(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
>
>So, I bought the electric aileron trim option for my RV-8 wing kit. After
>examining the parts and drawing, I am not impressed. As I see my options,
>they are: 1) shut up and install the trim per plans, 2) redesign the tab
>like the elevator (tab built into and flush with the control surface), 3)
>install a spring arrangement, 4) don't install any aileron trim at all.
>
>Advise please from flying RVers.
>
>1) Is Aileron trim a highly desirable option?
>2) What is the "spring thing" and is there a drawing of such an arrangement?
>
>Thanks for your input.
>
>Ron
>
>
>Ron Dunn [RV-8 #78]
>rdunn(at)ionet.net
>Broken Arrow, OK
Ron, Before you read this, please read the disclaimer in my sign-off.
I guess you should look before you leap in the future. #1 above will work,
but it lacks class. #2 above will add about one month to the project with a
certain amount of cursing. I tell people that each and every deviation from
the plans adds a month to the project. Just a rule of thumb. #3 from above
is exactly what Van did on the first prototype. It works pretty good, but
the sensitivity for the aileron is a lot less sensitive than the elevator
sensitivity. I think this could be easily fixed by adjusting the springs
and/or their tension. This would be my choice. #4 from above is a viable
option because you will trim the aircraft up by squeezing down the trailing
edge of the aileron on the light wing until the A/C flies straight (or use a
fixed tab on the aileron). No, there is not a drawing. It is an affair
that resides under the floorboards in the fuselage. Someday we will publish
some details, but it works on the principle used with the RV-6/6A manual
aileron trim tab. Bill
Bill
RV-4-180 soon. N894RV with over 400 hours behind a O-320, Over 1000 RV
flying hours.
These opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
position of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Hal Kempthorne wrote:
Why all the testing of fuel tanks under pressure???
(snip).. My "spam can" would certainly fail all your tests as no
pressure can be built up in the fuel tanks unless something is wrong...
Don't RV tanks have vents??
-----------------------------------
Actually Hal the tanks are under a very small pressure even though they
are vented.
Think of it this way. Water weighs about 0.5 pound per foot of height
(I forgot the precise number but it might be 0.487 lbs). Anyway, picture
a column of water (in a pipe or your well) 10 feet high. The pressure
at the very bottom of the column would be 5 PSI due to the weight of the
water above. Of course there would be no pressure at the top surface
(ignore atmospheric pressure for this example). This pressure is
commonly called "head" and that is why you have lakes high up in the
mountain feeding a powerhouse a 1000 ft lower. Pressure at the turbine
would be 500 psi.
We all know Av gas weighs 6 pounds per gallon (70% of water). So add
tank height and wing dihedral and you have maybe a 1 ft high head. So
just sitting there the fuel is exerting pressure (weight) to the bottom
and sides of the tank even though it is vented to the atmosphere. So my
guess is about 0.35 PSI just sitting there, vented and doing nothing.
The balloon test is only about a 1/2 to 1 psi test and probably a smart
thing to do. At these extremely low pressures it is a much better
visual indicator than a gage or regulator. A mistake of only a couple of
psi could destroy the tanks due to their large surface area.
If any engineer wants to jump in and add more precision please feel free
to comment.
-Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elon Ormsby <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use tax question... |
Brian Yablon wrote:
> > What if I live in Massachusetts, take delivery of a kit and dutifully
> > pay my tax, and then move to another state (say, New York). Do I pay
> > use tax again? Or can I show the new state that I've already been
> > bilked once?-----------------------------------------
> No, Use tax payed in one state is not recollected in another. Keep the
> papers that say you paid the MA "Abuse Tax"
> --
> Rick Osgood------------------------------------------------
In California if you paid the other state's tax less than 6 months ago, you only
owe the
diference between California's rate and the other State. Eg, If you paid 5% to
NV but CA is 8%
you owe CA 3% more. If it has been more than 6 months since you paid the tax to
the other state
CA requires you to pay the full CA rate.
-Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "L. Coats" <lcoats(at)wave.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Exhausts revisited - not taxes! |
Hi to all,
Sometime ago, actually mid September last year, I posted about problems with
cracks to the exhaust pipe from the number 4 cyclinder. I had a good
number of solutions posted back which was great (thank-you) and I thought I
would just mention a couple of points which may help some of you other
builders out there who might just have happened to pick up one of these old
Tolle exhaust systems. Now I realise that only another 30 odd hours have
been clocked up since then but the welding of gussets down each side from
the #4 flange does seem to be successful in that no more cracks around this
flange have been found(so far) BUT another RV6 owner flying with a Tolle
exhaust informed me about the in flight failure of the join where the #2
enters the #4 exhaust pipe. I think this was around the 140 hr mark so
every time the cowls were off for some reason the exhaust system was
examined. A hairline crack was found around the 145 hr mark and just
welded at the 150hr mark.
Back in September when the original welds were done, the engineer who
examined the slip joint where #2 fitted into #4 mentioned that the pipe did
not have enough room for heat expansion so 1/4 inch was cut off the #2
exhaust pipe. I guess others out there have already worked this problem
out but there is certainly not the exhaust gas deposits being forced around
this spot and the surrounding area around there is now clean.
Several RVators mentioned that they had managed to get a high number of
hours on these Tolle exhausts after rewelds and mods etc so I guess these
crack problems can be ironed out if you keep at them.
Biggles RV6 150hr and *thinking* about repeat offending and back to lurking
for the next 3 months.
National fly-in (for New Zealand) is 7 - 9 February if you happen to be down
this part of the world!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhausts revisited - not taxes! |
<< =3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: "L. Coats"
=20
Hi to all,
=20
Sometime ago, actually mid September last year, I posted about problems =
with
cracks to the exhaust pipe from the number 4 cyclinder. I had a good
number of solutions posted back which was great (thank-you) and I though=
t I
would just mention a couple of points which may help some of you other
builders out there who might just have happened to pick up one of these =
old
Tolle exhaust systems. Now I realise that only another 30 odd hours have
been clocked up since then but the welding of gussets down each side fro=
m
the #4 flange does seem to be successful in that no more cracks around t=
his
flange have been found(so far) BUT another RV6 owner flying with a Tolle
exhaust informed me about the in flight failure of the join where the #2
enters the #4 exhaust pipe. >>
To eliminate these problems is very simple, all that has to be done is bu=
y a
High Country exhaust system. Larry=92s systems are right from the start =
and by
the remote chance they are not, he will make them right.
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 20480 N157GS
FAA Powerplant Mechanic
(Waiting to take Airframe Oral and Practical)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use tax question... |
Whew
All this tax stuff is giving me a headache, I guess all you RVer's
could move to Oregon and just pay a flat rate of $35.00 a year.:-)
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sheinlein(at)VNET.IBM.COM |
| Subject: | Submitting notes to RV-LIST, but not on RV-LIST?! |
Today I saw the following note on the rv-list:
>
> ENOUGH ABOUT F------G TAXES. AREN'T WE ALL SMART ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE
> SUBJECT OUR OWN SPECIAL WAY........? IF YOU POSSESS THE TECHNICAL SKILL AND
> ABILITY TO BUILD AN RV,,,,,,,YOU SHOULD HAVE ON HAND THE MENTAL CAPABILITIES
> TO WORK AROUND THE TAX BS. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT IS IN THE
> THOUSANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Funny thing is, I can't find this guy on the list of names of people on
the rv-list. (By sending a note to rv-list-request with "who" in the body.)
Is it possible for people to post to this list without being on it?
It would be nice to dump people from the rv-list that behave like this,
but it appears that this may not be possible.
Matt? Any comments on how the rv-list handles outside-the-list posts?
This is the first time I got flamed... I guess I'm now initiated, huh?
I hope my therapy doesn't cost me too much! I won't be able to afford
it after paying all those taxes! (sorry, couldn't resist!)
BTW, the reason I posted my tax findings (from NYS) to the entire list
was because I received many personal requests for the info. So, I have
to assume that at least a fair number of people were interested...
If not, don't forget you can read the subject line and use "DELETE"!
Stephen Heinlein
sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com
(hoping for a warm weekend to Proseal second tank)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TESTPYLOT(at)aol.com |
Anybody that has flown an RV in the summer knows the sun room effect it has
on a hot day. What if a builder was to take vacuum baging material and
stretch it over the canopy with a lot of tape so that there were no creases.
Lets say two layers for safety sake. Then do fore layups of 9 oz glass over
it and let it cure. Clean it up and put some .063 al. tabs aprox. .5 x 2
inch riveted with JB epoxy in seven places around the shade where the
sliding canopy frame will be . Then attach it to the frame with some #6
stainless screws leaving an 1/4 airspace between the glass and plexy.
Certainly One would want this shade to be painted white. Take it off in the
winter and put it on in the summer. Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFierb6707(at)aol.com |
Any thoughts on insurance coverage for an RV6 both during construction and
once completed? Would any of you recommend a particular insurance company? I
have talked to Avemco, are there any others that will cover a kitplane?
Thanks
in advance,
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Re: Posting to RV-LIST if you are not on RV-LIST? |
>--------------
>Matt,
>
>I posted a note to the rv-list regarding if/how someone can send a
>note to the rv-list group without being on the list himself?
>
>Is this possible? Can you address this question to the rv-list if
>you have a chance? You can refer to my posting to the rv-list from
>today for more details.
>
>Thanks a lot!
>
>Stephen Heinlein
>sheinlein(at)vnet.ibm.com
>
>--------------
Hi Stephen,
The RV-List is an "Open List" which means that you don't have to be on the
list to post to it.
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Herman Dierks <dierks(at)austin.ibm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sun room effect |
Is this to fiber glass shell to be on the inside or the outside of
the existing canopy?
If it is on the inside, it will not help the 'sun room effect' because
the shell will not keep out the UV rays. The UV rays turn into IR radiation
(thus the heat). You have to keep out the UV rays to start with so
the shell would have to be on the outside of the existing canopy and
I expect that would be UGLY.
Herman
>
> Anybody that has flown an RV in the summer knows the sun room effect it has
> on a hot day. What if a builder was to take vacuum baging material and
> stretch it over the canopy with a lot of tape so that there were no creases.
> Lets say two layers for safety sake. Then do fore layups of 9 oz glass over
> it and let it cure. Clean it up and put some .063 al. tabs aprox. .5 x 2
> inch riveted with JB epoxy in seven places around the shade where the
> sliding canopy frame will be . Then attach it to the frame with some #6
> stainless screws leaving an 1/4 airspace between the glass and plexy.
> Certainly One would want this shade to be painted white. Take it off in the
> winter and put it on in the summer. Werner
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Trim - Help |
Bob Skinner wrote that he is using a Navaid Devices autopilot/turn
coordinator. Their brochure includes a sample RV-6 installation. It appears
to me that such an installation would also effect pitch unless the servo
torque tube happens to be perfectly parallel to the aileron push tube whenever
it is activated. Bob, did you use this installation method? If not, how and
where did you install it? It seems to me that the only place to install it
without effecting elevator trim would be either an aileron bellcrank, push
tube to aileron, or direct to an aileron.
Would appreciate anyone else's input on this also.
Thanks,
Les Williams
RV-6AQME #60027 (tip-up), picked up 12/18, working on wings first
RV-6A #20299 completed 4/92, sold 10/95, 350 great hours, Oshkosh '94 -
Champion; Northern Calif. EAA Fly-in '94 - Best of Show; Northwest AA Fly-in
'94 - Best of Class; Kerrville SW Regional Fly-in '94 - Grand Champion
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Phillips <billphil(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | RV-6a with Auto Conversion Breaks Speed of Sound |
UPI News-release January 15, 1997
Homebuilt Aircraft Breaks Speed of Sound
LAS VEGAS NEVADA ---Wednesday January 15, 1997
Yesterday a homemade aircraft broke the speed of sound over a
remote location some 80 miles northwest of Las Vegas. The pilot,
William Phillips is being held by officials pending hearings later
this morning. Early information indicates the pilot was enraged over
high costs in a bordello near the location of the infraction. It
seems that Phillips is an ex-airborne ranger with metal plates in his
head. He and a few of his pilot-friends frequent the "Happy Bottom
Riding Club" near Badwater Death Valley on a regular basis. Last
Friday they spent the entire night there but felt they were
overcharged for some of the services. A dispute ensued and the party
was forcefully ejected by local security guards after causing
substantial damage. One source said they virtually tore the place up.
Phillips, a test pilot, told news reporters he took his homemade
Chevrolet powered aircraft to 30,000 feet over the establishment and
commenced a full power dive. In his own words he went supersonic at
about 18,000 feet straight down. Going slightly over 1000 feet per
second, Phillips began his pullout at 10,000 feet over the brothel.
He told reporters it was just enough time as to not hit the ground.
The small aircraft=92s shock wave broke every window in the buildings
and automobiles below causing customers to scramble for cover. The
owner and manager Earlene Tasty told reporters she planned to file
civil suit against Phillips for his blatant disregard of her rights
and property. =
Late reports from the local county jail indicate Phillips had
a second motive in the incident. It seems that the aircraft has been
in flight-test and was nearing 100 hours total time. Phillips claims
a meter mounted in the aircraft flipped to 100 hours just as he
commenced his dive on the bordello. Other reports from Washington DC
indicate that the Smithsonian has shown interest in this aircraft over
the daring stunt. It seems that the airplane is powered by an
inexpensive Chevrolet auto engine. Smithsonian officials indicate
this is the first case of any auto-powered aircraft breaking the speed
of sound. Local FAA officials say the aircraft is highly deformed and
bent from the excessive speed but could be repaired for display in
the Air and Space Museum. =
Phillips declined to be interviewed this morning but was
overhead saying he wasn=92t a bit sorry for the damages he caused.
Local police say some of his buddies smuggled whiskey into him last
night and he was highly intoxicated. One officer used the words "he=92s
a raving maniac", another claimed Phillips was howling like a coyote
and rambling in Spanish. In an interview with a Spanish-speaking
guard the report was that Phillips thought he was singing to the moon.
The guard later corrected himself saying Phillips was singing in
Spanish about flying over the moon straddling an auto engine, or
something close to that. No one expects Phillips to sober up soon
since it appears he has an infrastructure and rapport even with the
guards who continue to supply him with whiskey.
END OF STRING-15JAN97---UPI-UNSOLICITED PERSONAL INDITE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n5lp(at)carlsbad.net (Larry Pardue) |
| Subject: | Quick Build Tools/Fuel Senders |
A question for you quickbuilders.
Have you found the quickbuild option allows construction with less than the
full complement of tools needed for the basic kit? If it is necessary to
use certain tools just to form one rib or build one tail control surface
maybe it doesn't make sense to purchase those tools?
Also, does the QB still allow the installation of any fuel level sender?
Larry Pardue
RV-6 Plans
RV-6Q Thinking about it
Pacer N8025D
Amateur Radio N5LP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pmbs(at)probe.att.com |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Elon wrote:
>
> Hal Kempthorne wrote:
>
> Why all the testing of fuel tanks under pressure???
>
> (snip).. My "spam can" would certainly fail all your tests as no
> pressure can be built up in the fuel tanks unless something is wrong...
> Don't RV tanks have vents??
> -----------------------------------
>
> Actually Hal the tanks are under a very small pressure even though they
> are vented.
>
Much deleted here......
>
> We all know Av gas weighs 6 pounds per gallon (70% of water). So add
> tank height and wing dihedral and you have maybe a 1 ft high head. So
> just sitting there the fuel is exerting pressure (weight) to the bottom
> and sides of the tank even though it is vented to the atmosphere. So my
> guess is about 0.35 PSI just sitting there, vented and doing nothing.
Don't forget that some day there will be some line person that we may happen
across that will place his LARGE fuel delivery nozzle into your tank and
direct it such that it is aimed at one of the rivet lines in the tank and
try to fill your tank in "record time" with as much flow as his new
high-pressure fuel delivery system pumps can supply......I suspect that
this will also put more than the static weight of the fuel bottom of the
tanks and rivets there.
Then there's aerobatics and the sloshing around of the fuel in the tanks
against your proseal/rivet combinations. Good thing that proseal works
so well!!!
Random thoughts while waiting for it to warm up a bit so I can insulate
my garage door and get back to working out there!!!
Paul Bilodeau
pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com
Empennage kit just begging to be worked on.......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Regarding pressure testing fuel tanks: This has been said before but
I figure it can't hurt to say it again: use the LOWEST pressure
possible to "pressure" test the tanks. What you want is to either use
a bicycle pump, or if you do use your compressor, be SURE to first
turn the regulator down until the air just barely "squeaks" out of the
hose. If you can't do this, don't use the compressor -- it's not
worth the risk. Using a balloon is important as well, as it can act
as a "safety valve" if you put too much pressure in.
You can easily blow up your tank if you are not careful. I know one
person who did (and no, it wasn't me!)
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Immelmann(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
<< Is anybody flying with a wing leveler or autopilot out there?
>If so, what did you do for aileron trim?
>Ed tailkit in hand, gathering tools
Ed, I'm using a Naviaid Devices wing leveler and it works very well. This
is the trim device. Nothing else is needed.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net >>
Bob, Sorry, I didn't phrase my question very well. How does the wing
leveler move the aileron? Did you use the trim tab as supplied by Van's or
build one into the surface like the elevator trim? Or does it work on the
control linkage? Where's the servo mounted?
Thanks,
Ed Holyoke
Tailkit, buying tools
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Timothy J. Etherington" <tjetheri(at)cca.rockwell.com> |
State Farm has covered my construciton project at no cost to my current home
owners policy. It is being built in the garage.
Tim Etherington
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
>
>Any thoughts on insurance coverage for an RV6 both during construction and
>once completed? Would any of you recommend a particular insurance company? I
>have talked to Avemco, are there any others that will cover a kitplane?
>
I have builder's insurance through Avemco for $240/year (my homeowner's
policy specifically states that aircraft and a/c parts are not covered).
Considering there's $30K sitting in the garage its cheap insurance...uh, no
pun intended.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Torque...revisited. |
I know this subject has been hashed out here before, but I want to stress
the importance of proper torque to those currently building.
The archives have tales of bolt heads snapping off upon removal after having
been tightened by "feel", and after reading the section on fasteners in the
Skyranch Engineering Manual (a must have imho)...I became serious about
torque specs. I found a Utica 30-150 in/oz click type torque wrench at a
local tool supplier for $69.99 (the same one Avery sells for $125!!!).
Last night came the first bolt to torque in the Quickbuild kit, the aileron
bellcrank. This calls for 50-70 in/oz, so I set the wrench up for 65. I
spun the nut down using a ratchet, then gave it "just a little force" so I
would not have to ratchet as much with the torque wrench.
On goes the torque wrench, it immediately clicks. Wow. So just for grins
(knowing it would not be accurate but I just wanted to know how far off my
"feel" was) I set the wrench to 120, click. Wow again. Set it to 150, click.
I backed off the nut, set the wrench for 70, and believe me 70 in/oz feels
like nothing. You can do it EASILY with ONE finger on the wrench. It irks
me to think such a low force will hold my aileron controls in place, but I
will be going by the book (the thought of 6g's of structure on a fastener
tightened two or three times over spec is scarier).
Moral: I had set an AN-4 bolt *more than twice* above its rated torque spec
while just setting it up for "final" torque. Heaven forbid it would have
been an AN-3 with a thin nut rated at 15 in/oz.
Sorry for being so long, I just think $70 is a small price compared to bolt
heads coming off either on or off the ground.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
>--------------
>Hi Matt,
>
>I really enjoy the list and expect to use a lot once my kit arrives. I hope
>it ramains as useful as it is now.
>
>I get a few hundred pieces of email each day, some with lies, flames and wrong
>answers. I wouldn't mind at all being able to sort out some of the stuff.
>
>Maybe it is time for two lists? One for building-engineering issues and the
>other for owning-flying-bs? Is this possibility double the work for you or is
>it reasonable. Those who wanted both could subscribe to both.
>
>I don't really need a response, just thinking of alternatives to losing good
>contributers who are not able to handle so much traffic & noise.
>
>Hal Kempthorne halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. (SJC)
>--------------
Hi Hal,
Thank you for your input. Discussion on splitting the List into two groups has
come up before on. The general consensus has always been to leave it as a
single list. I wish that there was some way to remind people that each of
their posts (be it useful or not) go to almost 700 people. That is somewhat
sobering especially when the post is just to flame somebody...
I was hoping that the 'Usage Guidlines' would have a bigger impact on people's
submissions. It is automatically posted to the List once a month now. I hate
to post it more frequently. I keep trying to think of a way to remind Listers
to "Keep It Relevant and Friendly..."
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com> |
Has any QB'r gotten to the point of installing their wings on fuselage? Do
the flaps fit without interference with the fuselage? Details appreciated.
Looking ahead,
Les Williams
RV-6AQBME #60027 (tip-up), working on wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills) |
| Subject: | pneumatic squeezers |
RV'ers,
I realize I'm a bit far into construction for such a basic question, but I
am willing to risk the ridicule. I am considering the purchase of a
pneumatic squeezer and would like to know if I can expect to increase my
"yield" of good rivets.
I find while using my Tatco (thin nose, 1 1/2, and 3 inch yokes) that I
still have an occasional problem with rivets that bend over, rather than
setting properly. This is unrelated to rivet length. It seems to happen most
frequently when there is an interference and I cant center the rivet
properly on the sets(talking flush rivets here). I usually catch this before
the rivet is fully set and is not to much trouble to remove.
Will the pneumatic squeezer improve rivet finish quality? If not I will
save the $.
Mike Wills
RV-4(wings)
willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mikel(at)dimensional.com |
| Subject: | Re: To all RV builders who's planes are under |
construction (Especially RV-4's)
1996 will be a year that I will never forget and every time I climb into my
4 the thrill of true flying grows stronger. So keep pounding away at those
rivits and cast any doubts you have away, I guarantee you will have the time
of your life once you finish.
> Chris May
> RV-4 N595CM
Thanks, Chris!!! I am at the slowest stage so far: the finishing stage and
sometimes it seems like it will NEVER fly. We need to hear from you flyers
for an occasional kiss on the forehead to keep at it. So, my -4 will fly on
Thursday. Some Thursday, here soon.
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mikel(at)dimensional.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig Construction |
>I just want to comment on jigs in general. I've noticed a lot of people
>fretting about building straight jigs even to the point of buying mega-buck
>custom made steel versions.....
>
>I built the jig out of regular lumber, (2X6 sides, 2X4 cross pieces) I didn't
>use any built-up laminates, roof beams, railroad ties, or 4" square steel
>tubing. I built the jig as per Van's instructions at a cost of $50.......
>
>Jigs can be as simple or as complex as you want to make them. Me, I'd rather
>spend the time flying...
>
>Ed Bundy
>ebundy2620(at)aol.com
>
EXACTLY, Mr. Bundy!!! Which is what I did. And, with a little shim
tweeking of the jig, my fuselage is STRAIGHT with a bare minimum of shimming
of the bulkheads for flat skin-to-bulkhead allignment. Then, after I had
freed my fuselage from it's cage (and into the canoe stage), I GAVE my jig
to another builder, the only stipulation being that the name and date of the
fuselage being built be marked on the side of the jig and it be passed on.
Last I saw, fuselage #4 was in the jig. Long live the JIG.
Hints: 1. Make sure it is firmly secured to the floor. I used "L" brackets
and screwed it to the concrete garage floor (single car garage, mind you)
2. Make sure the jig STAYS straight by doing occasional allignment
checking: centerline is straight and equidistant from the sides, etc.
3. Give your jig to another builder. What are you going to do with
it anyway? Ladder? Yeah, I could sell it, but look what it is doing for free!
Michael
RV-4 232SQ
mikel(at)dimensional.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dean & Scott Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sun room effect |
Herman Dierks wrote:
>
>
> Is this to fiber glass shell to be on the inside or the outside of
> the existing canopy?
> If it is on the inside, it will not help the 'sun room effect' because
> the shell will not keep out the UV rays. . Then attach it to the frame with
some #6
snip snip
> > stainless screws leaving an 1/4 airspace between the glass and plexy.
> > Certainly One would want this shade to be painted white. Take it off in the
> > winter and put it on in the summer. Werner
Werner,
I've seen shades similar in theory to the one you are contemplating, and
they do work. I think a better idea might be to find some film or other
tinted and transparent material that you can form fit or mold to the
inside of the canopy. Many of the Grumman Lynxs etc. had such a (dark,
removable) shade on their canopies and I can personally testify to their
effectiveness. And importantly, you can see through them. Why give up
visibility, which should have been part of the reason you built an RV
anyway? Personally, after a lot of sailplane flying in the desert (read
EXTREME sunroom) my solution is a tinted canopy to start with, followed
by a white hat and shirt. I use a 'slap-on' sunshade for those times
when I fly facing into the sun, etc.
Scott
N4ZW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Torque...revisited (again). |
I obviously need to get some sleep instead of staying up building
airplanes...I meant in/lb, not in/oz, in my original message. Sorry about
the error.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills) |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
Has anyone tried/considered a prelim test before installing the rear
baffle. Seems to me that it would be much easier to fix leaks along the
ribs, drain, vent before the back baffle is installed.
Are there any places that are particularly prone to leaks? The only RV's
I've seen that had problems were with leaks through the skin along the ribs.
Mike Wills
RV-4(wings)
willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6a with Auto Conversion Breaks Speed of Sound |
Bill, did you not get flamed enough the last time you were here ?
Naw...not with that thick skin.
Good to see you back...and getting 100 hours on the airframe/engine.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Hatwell <hatters(at)overvne.demon.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: How I tested my fuel tanks |
In message <32DC9D32.357C(at)worldnet.att.net>, Elon Ormsby writes
>
>Hal Kempthorne wrote:
>
>Why all the testing of fuel tanks under pressure???
>
>
>Think of it this way. Water weighs about 0.5 pound per foot of height
>(I forgot the precise number but it might be 0.487 lbs).
>We all know Av gas weighs 6 pounds per gallon (70% of water).
> So my
>guess is about 0.35 PSI just sitting there, vented and doing nothing.
>The balloon test is only about a 1/2 to 1 psi test and probably a smart
>thing to do. At these extremely low pressures it is a much better
>visual indicator than a gage or regulator. A mistake of only a couple of
>psi could destroy the tanks due to their large surface area.
>
>If any engineer wants to jump in and add more precision please feel free
>to comment.
>-Elon
>
Do not forget a 4G pull up, extra pressure. Also test it with a liquid
of similar viscosity as fuel i.e. fuel. Goes through smaller holes than
water.
--
Rob Hatwell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Check the archives. I am an aviation insurance broker and I have posted many
facts and figures (as well as things to look out for) in the past.
AVEMCO does offer a construction policy which will be required by a lendor
should you finance the construction of your RV. However, once the aircraft
is completed, there are other choices. Talk to your favorite AVIATION
insurance broker and ask him/her to obtain quotes from COMAV as well as
Sourthern Aviation (both rated "A" or better by A.M. Best). American Eagle
(former AOA) covers RV's as well. I'm sure that there are others, but I like
to see that "A" rating. As of now, the major aviation insurers (USAIG, AAU,
CIGNA & AIG) do not provide coverage for amatur-built aircraft although USAIG
and AAU are looking into it.
>From what I have seen, hull rates are running from 1.75 to 2.25 per $100
(depending on insured value) and liability rates run in the $300 range for
$1,000,000 each occurrance/$100,000 per passenger.
WARNING: Do not attempt to save money on your hull insurance by
under-insuring it. If it is worth $50,000 to you, be sure to insure it for
that value. If you insure a $50,000 aircraft for, lets say, $35,000 you will
run the risk of having an insurance company TAKE your aircraft for a partial
loss (the rule of thumb is that when the cost to repair exceeds 75% of the
insured value, it is a total loss. So a $35,000 insured value will be totaled
with $26,250 of damage). Conversely, if you over-insure for lets say
$75,000, you could sustain major damage and the insurer will not total the
aircraft at which point you will have to repair.
I could go on about this subject (I think that I already have). I would be
glad to answer any questions any lister may have and I can even recomend a
broker for you (I don't broke business for pleasure aircraft) if you like (I
will get nothing for this).
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC, NJ
Work (212) 441-1225 (Aon Aviation)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
>coordinator. Their brochure includes a sample RV-6 installation. It appears
>to me that such an installation would also effect pitch unless the servo
>torque tube happens to be perfectly parallel to the aileron push tube whenever
>it is activated. Bob, did you use this installation method? If not, how and
>Les Williams
Les, I have not detected any problem in pitch changes because of the Navaid
Devices servo mounting location. I will give some thought to a wing mounted
servo on the next installation. Possibly, Naviaid now has some info on wing
mounted servos or an update to the fuselage mounting.
Bob Skinner RV-6 Bskinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank H. Pruitt" <fhpruitt(at)washingtonian.infi.net> |
Can someone tell me if the rib forms dimensions in drawing 8a are the
actual dimensions of the forming blocks or must these dimensions be reduced
by the thickness (.025" or .032") of the 2024-T3 material called for by the
particular rib.
________________________
Frank H. Pruitt
fhpruitt(at)washingtonian.infi.net
1707 Forest Lane
McLean, VA 22101
Tools bought, new workshop under construction, studying preview plans, will
build empennage from scratch!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com> |
For anyone looking to buy a good quality, 10" bandsaw, you might want to look
at a Black & Decker Model BS700. It is a variable speed 300-3000 fpm, 1/3 hp,
and works great. I paid $219 at a B&D store and compared to some of the junk
out there, consider it a bargain. Price does not include metal cutting
blade.
Les Williams
RV-6AQBME #60027 (tip-up) working on wings first/fuselage later
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
| Subject: | Quick Build Tools/Fuel Senders |
Hi Larry,
You still have to / get to install fuel level senders in the tanks of
the QuickBuild.
I build the empennage kit first, but I still feel you need the
majority of the tools
for the QB because you still have A LOT of building to do. Don't
underestimate
the amount of work left. I can't really think of anything that the QB
might save
you toolwise other than a few small things used during fuel tank
construction,
like #8 dimple die sets, but you probably need to buy/borrow those
anyway.
--------------------- cut here
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
>----------
>From: carlsbad.net!n5lp(at)matronics.com[SMTP:carlsbad.net!n5lp(at)matronics.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 1997 10:27 AM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Quick Build Tools/Fuel Senders
>
>
>A question for you quickbuilders.
>
>Have you found the quickbuild option allows construction with less than the
>full complement of tools needed for the basic kit? If it is necessary to
>use certain tools just to form one rib or build one tail control surface
>maybe it doesn't make sense to purchase those tools?
>
>Also, does the QB still allow the installation of any fuel level sender?
>
>Larry Pardue
>
>RV-6 Plans
>RV-6Q Thinking about it
>Pacer N8025D
>Amateur Radio N5LP
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "robert hughes" <hawk(at)digisys.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque...revisited. |
----------
> From: r.acker <ix.netcom.com!r.acker(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Torque...revisited.
> Date: Wednesday, January 15, 1997 13:07
>
>
> I know this subject has been hashed out here before, but I want to
stress
> the importance of proper torque to those currently building.
I know you have probably heard from multiple people, but I'm sure you
meant
"in.-lbs" vice "in.-oz" in your posting. The advice in your note is
very well founded, and we all tend to abuse the smaller fasteners and
mounting studs.
Best wishes, and I really enjoyed your pictures.
Hawkeye Hughes hawk(at)digisys.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAllen6526(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for RV bitmaps |
I am interested in finding out if anyone has a good bitmap or other
electronic format of an RV6A or RV6? I am interested in line art which I
can import into a drawing program and try out different paint schemes. I can
convert most formats.
If you have something like this, or can point me to a site that does, please
eMail me directly at jallen6526(at)aol.com.
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Torque...revisited. |
Rob,
What is "in/oz"? I think the spec is "in/lb".
Les
----------
From: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com on behalf of r.acker
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 1997 12:07 PM
Subject: RV-List: Torque...revisited.
I know this subject has been hashed out here before, but I want to stress
the importance of proper torque to those currently building.
The archives have tales of bolt heads snapping off upon removal after having
been tightened by "feel", and after reading the section on fasteners in the
Skyranch Engineering Manual (a must have imho)...I became serious about
torque specs. I found a Utica 30-150 in/oz click type torque wrench at a
local tool supplier for $69.99 (the same one Avery sells for $125!!!).
Last night came the first bolt to torque in the Quickbuild kit, the aileron
bellcrank. This calls for 50-70 in/oz, so I set the wrench up for 65. I
spun the nut down using a ratchet, then gave it "just a little force" so I
would not have to ratchet as much with the torque wrench.
On goes the torque wrench, it immediately clicks. Wow. So just for grins
(knowing it would not be accurate but I just wanted to know how far off my
"feel" was) I set the wrench to 120, click. Wow again. Set it to 150, click.
I backed off the nut, set the wrench for 70, and believe me 70 in/oz feels
like nothing. You can do it EASILY with ONE finger on the wrench. It irks
me to think such a low force will hold my aileron controls in place, but I
will be going by the book (the thought of 6g's of structure on a fastener
tightened two or three times over spec is scarier).
Moral: I had set an AN-4 bolt *more than twice* above its rated torque spec
while just setting it up for "final" torque. Heaven forbid it would have
been an AN-3 with a thin nut rated at 15 in/oz.
Sorry for being so long, I just think $70 is a small price compared to bolt
heads coming off either on or off the ground.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAllen6526(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for RV bitmaps |
I am interested in finding out if anyone has a good bitmap or other
electronic format of an RV6A or RV6? I am interested in line art which I
can import into a drawing program and try out different paint schemes. I can
convert most formats.
If you have something like this, or can point me to a site that does, please
eMail me directly at jallen6526(at)aol.com.
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
>Bob, Sorry, I didn't phrase my question very well. How does the wing
>leveler move the aileron? Did you use the trim tab as supplied by Van's or
>build one into the surface like the elevator trim? Or does it work on the
>control linkage? Where's the servo mounted?
>Thanks, Ed Holyoke Tailkit, buying tools
Ed,
The wing leveler servo attaches to the bottom of the control stick. I
mounted the servo under the passenger side seat pan (forward, where the ribs
angle up.) Some builders are mounting the servo at this location and using
a longer push rod and attaching to the pilots control stick. This has the
advantage of lessening the angles that the rod end bearings have to operate.
In other words, with the servo push tube mounted to the pilot side as
opposed the the passenger side, there is much less movement of the linkage.
With the shorter push rod, mounting location of the servo becomes critical
and I ended up making little cone shaped washers to place on each side of
both rod end bearings so I could get more travel. If I do it again, I'll
either attach to the pilot control stick or possibly mount the servo in the
wing as some RVers have done. You might want to check the archives on this
subject, as well.
Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: underdriven rivets |
<< At least I meet "minimum" diameter!
(Snip)
Darrell Anderson
RV-4
Montana .....-30 F last night!
>>
Hello Darrell,
Said simply, You want to meet the minimum diameter, and have at least the
minimum height, in that order. (Having more than the minimum height is not a
structural problem. And this should be the first consideration in building a
structurally sound aircraft.)
<< I'm prepared to drill out all the questionable rivets (whew!) but I'm
afraid that I'll do more damage in the process. Of course, the holes will
now be slightly oversized, etc., etc.>>
Whenever you can, use the dimple in the flush head as the center point for
the drill. Just drill in far enough so you can take a second drill of the
same diameter, and using the back end of the drill, pop the rivet head out.
On the thinner skin/flanges, a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quick Build Tools/Fuel Senders |
>Have you found the quickbuild option allows construction with less than the
>full complement of tools needed for the basic kit? If it is necessary to
>use certain tools just to form one rib or build one tail control surface
>maybe it doesn't make sense to purchase those tools?
I find I still need most of the same tools (confirmed to me by beta QB
builders, they were right). At least one repetition of every standard kit
operation is required to help meet the 51% rule.
Unless you can *easily* borrow the tools only used a few times, I suggest
purchasing them anyway (there's not many anyhow). Best to have them handy
as you will need them again for something...maybe tomorrow, maybe six months
from now.
>Also, does the QB still allow the installation of any fuel level sender?
I suppose as long as it will mount on the access plate? I bought the Van's
senders so can't officially comment.
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com> |
| Subject: | pneumatic squeezers |
>> Will the pneumatic squeezer improve rivet finish quality? If not I will
>>save the $.
>
>>Mike Wills
>>RV-4(wings)
I don't think I've *ever* bent a rivet over using my pneumatic squeezer.
I've had a few where the flush rivet head was cocked just a little bit
so I could feel the edge sticking up on one side, so I've replaced
those, but no bent working heads. Now the hand squeezer, on the other
hand... The rivets don't just come out perfect every time, but it's
also easier in many cases when you can just hold the backing plate or
rib in one hand and dimple or rivet with the other. It really speeds
things up this way when you don't have to clamp or weight things down
all the time before riveting.
- Mitch "won't give up my pneumatic squeezer" Faatz
>--------------------- cut here
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Mitch Faatz mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com San Jose, CA
>RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved)
>
>Finished with empennage and initial fuselage work, working on left wing
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r.acker" <r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com> |
>
>State Farm has covered my construciton project at no cost to my current home
>owners policy. It is being built in the garage.
>
>Tim Etherington
>
Whoa...State Farm is who I have my insurance with and I was shown the
exclusion in black and white (my agent at first thought the aircraft was
covered, until he spent three days looking for the fine print).
Rob Acker / r.acker(at)ix.netcom.com / RV-6Q project:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rob_acker
(last update 12/23/96 - Oshkosh '96 RV pictures)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barnhart(at)a.crl.com (Dave Barnhart) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
rdunn(at)ionet.net (Ron Dunn) wrote:
>So, I bought the electric aileron trim option for my RV-8 wing kit. After
>examining the parts and drawing, I am not impressed.
Your sentiments echo mine for the RV-6 electric aileron trim. I bought it.
I looked at it. I didn't like the tab hanging off the back of the
aileron. I didn't like the added weight. MOst of all, I didn't like the
way the aileron servo mounted.
The manual aileron trim, on the other hand, is light and simple. I
subsequently bought it and am installing it.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mikeb(at)lsil.com (Mike Brogley) |
| Subject: | underdriven rivets |
> =3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: Gil Alexander
> FREE OFFER UPDATE:
>=20
> All 16 requests so far for the Riveting MIL-Spec have been mailed,
> including one to Canada, and one to England. Thanks to Brian Yablon =
(and
> to the FAA for getting me a better copy to scan), this spec. should be
> on-line soon, so save your SASEs, and I'll post the location as soon =
as
> it's available.
>=20
Wow - and I was all fired up to type the thing in! (Really!)
All I can say is, all of you out there in online-RV-land who had not
yet taken Gil up on his generous offer are very lucky.
--
Mike Brogley
RV-8 sn80241 emp.
Proud recipent of the Gil-Mil-Spec
San Jose, CA USA
mbrogley(at)pacbell.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Phillips <jimphil(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6a Breaks Speed of Sound |
Bill Phillips wrote:
>
> Homebuilt Aircraft Breaks Speed of Sound
Bill,
Please check the thread on leaking fuel tanks. Perhaps this is the reson
for your out break. BTW I've been to the Happy Bottom Riding Club and
know Miss Tasty personally, she never over charges her GOOD customers.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: pneumatic squeezers |
> I am considering the purchase of a
> pneumatic squeezer and would like to know if I can expect to increase my
> "yield" of good rivets.
[snip!]
Yes indeedy, I find that it is easier to set rivets without
bending them over, using the Pneumatic over the hand squeezer.
I think the difference has do do with the fact that you don't
have to squeeze the handles, one with each hand, at the same
time trying to keep the plunger perpendicular to the rivet.
Randall Henderson, RV-6
randall(at)edt.com
http://www.edt.com/homewing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Gottschalk <geneg(at)oz.kis.net> |
| Subject: | EAA Chapter 524 Eighth Annual RV Forum |
RV-Listers,
=20
You are cordially invited to attend EAA Chapter 524's eighth annual RV
Forum to be held on Saturday and=20
Sunday, April 12 & 13, 1997. The RV Forum will be held at the Frederick
Community College Aviation=20
Technology Hangar, which is south of the main parking lot at Frederick
Airport (FDK), Frederick,=20
Maryland.=20
=20
We are planning two full days of programs including presentations,
exhibits, practical hands-on workshops,=20
and tours of local RV builder's shops. Emphasis will be on the RV-3, RV-=
4,
RV-6, RV-6A and RV-8 aircraft=20
and on construction techniques applicable to most aluminum monocoque
aircraft.=20
=20
Our featured speaker will be Dick VanGrunsven, RV designer and founder of
Van=92s Aircraft. Van=92s favorite=20
mode of interaction with attendees is to hold a question and answer sessi=
on
on any and all topics regarding=20
the RV series of aircraft. George and Becki Orndorff, noted RV constructi=
on
experts, producers of the RV=20
construction video tapes, and numerous RV related construction aids and
parts, will also be in attendance. =20
Since both Van and the Orndorffs will be flying in an RV aircraft their
attendance is weather permitting.
Anyone interested in attending who is not on our mailing list may contact
me directly for a registration form.
Gene Gottschalk
EAA Chapter 524, Frederick, Maryland
geneg(at)oz.kis.net
(301) 865-3432
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim - Help |
les williams wrote:
>
>
> Bob Skinner wrote that he is using a Navaid Devices autopilot/turn
> coordinator. Their brochure includes a sample RV-6 installation. It appears
> to me that such an installation would also effect pitch unless the servo
> torque tube happens to be perfectly parallel to the aileron push tube whenever
> it is activated. Bob, did you use this installation method? If not, how and
> where did you install it? It seems to me that the only place to install it
> without effecting elevator trim would be either an aileron bellcrank, push
> tube to aileron, or direct to an aileron.
>
> Would appreciate anyone else's input on this also.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Les Williams
Hi Les
You know I could fly up to your place and show you how I installed the
Navaid Device in my RV-6 :-) I installed it pretty much to the drawing
from Navaid, which puts the servo on the passenger side behind the
spar, but instead of connecting the push pull tube to the bottom of
the co-pilot control stick I run it across to the bottom of the pilot
control stick, this works better IMO because it does not create such a
sharp angle for the push pull tube as the control stick is moved fore
and aft for the elevator. I had to shave maybe 1/8" from the holes
in the ribs for clearence. Haveing flown about 700 hrs without it
I could not even tell that it was installed when it was disengaged.
I love it for x-country, I can now climb to altitude tune in the
GPS turn on the Navaid, trim the elevator with the electric trim
and then take a nap or read the paper or whatever.(just kidding)
One drawback is I took out my Van's mechanical trim (which also
worked great) and when disengageing the Navaid for landing if
one tank is fuller than the other I am now out of trim with no way
to compensate for the fuller fuel tank.
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
I have used Avemco on several homebuilts over the years, I personally like
the way they do buisness. Especially experimentals
Chris May
RV-4 N595CM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
I need some suggestions from you builders-
I'm working on a 6A fuse, and am at the point where I need to cut the access
holes in the aft side skins. I'm curious as to what tips/techniques you
builders might have as to how to go about doing this. I suppose I could ask
a couple of neighbors to help hold the skin so I can use the fly cutter on
the drill press, but I'm thinking there has to be a better way. Thanks in
advance..
Dick Flunker (RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM)
N326DB, res
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kelley <72466.1355(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall recess ? |
Hey Gang,
I purchased the pre-made firewall recess (WD-601K) and it is different than
I expected. Instead of being like a box, it has a sharp slope on one end,
either top or bottom. Hummm, just how does it go in the firewall, with the
slope to the top or to the bottom of the fuse? I have looked for a picture
or Dwg and can't find it anywhere!
Rough draft:
Top of fuselage
-------------|--------- ---------|--------
| |
| |
A | F A | F
F +---| W F /| W
T | | D T / | D
| | / |
S | | F S | | F
I \ | I I | | I
D \ | R D | | R
E \| E E +---| E
| W | W
| A | A
| L | L
| L | L
--------------|--------- --------|--------
Bottom of fuselage
Once again, thanks in advance...
James Kelley
RV6-A, Just started on fuse.
72466.1355(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mytyweav(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Colorado Taxes |
January 08, 1997 - January 15, 1997
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ci