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RV-Archive.digest.vol-cs
April 09, 1997 - April 17, 1997

VNM3011 -- UNEXPECTED FAILURE CONDITION An unexpected failure condition occurred. Check for error conditions in the mail service log and the server log of the server that maintains the mail service Louis Willig wrote: > > Dear Gang, > > Don George, Inc. has a booth at Sun'n Fun. They are Lynching engine > over haulers. Don claims he can sell me an overhauled 0-320, 160 hp. > with new: > > cylinder head assemblies > carburetor. > mags, harness, plugs > cam and lifters and push rods > starter (I think he said lightweight) > alternator > fuel pump > > He purchases the cores from a guy in Kansas who does Cessna 172 > conversions. > They are thoroughly inspected as are the cranks. The cost is about > $11,000. > Is this for real? Does anyone have experience with Mr. George? He is a > smooth > talker and that makes me wonder a little bit. OK, you engine gurus, > what do you think, and what else should I have asked? > > Lou Willig, larywil(at)op.net Lou I did not buy a motor from Don, but I did talk to him ( he is a smooth talker ) . One of the FBO's here in Tallahassee has Don do all of thier engines and they say he is very good. Sounds like a good deal. Craig Hiers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 1997
From: <MAILER-DAEMON(at)Veda.com>
Subject: Undeliverable Message
Subject: RE: RV-List: Bolting and riveting strength Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3011: Jim Tennison@CMRL@Veda VNM3011 -- UNEXPECTED FAILURE CONDITION An unexpected failure condition occurred. Check for error conditions in the mail service log and the server log of the server that maintains the mail service Message text written by Tony ATKINSON >Take a 3/16 nut and bolt. Van calls for 25 inch pounds. But the nylock nut needs 15 inch pounds to turn it. So, do you set the torque wrench to click at 40 inch pounds? < Welllllllllll, let's look at it this way: All the nut does is stretch the bolt via the inclined plane of the threads. In fact, the friction between the threads is such a problem that all sorts of exotic ideas have been concocted to induce the stretch without putting a torsional load on the bolt. (would you believe heating them with an internal wire and then just finger-tight on the nut? Or how about ultrasonic beams shot through the length of the bolt and measure the time to return, a la' sonar? How about grease the threads?) Well, all the nyloc is doing is resisting some of the torque and masking the load on the bolt. Sooooooooo, I would say yes. But. (don't you love it!) too much torque and you twist the bolt in half. I'll go look up the specs, you go twist a dozen or so to forty, fifty, and sixty pounds and we'll check back afor you go doing it. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 1997
From: Elon <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mazda RV-3 (was Sun and Fun)
Charlie Kuss wrote re Nitrous Oxide: Just vent it into the tailcone. It's not toxic, although it sure is cold! Evaporation point is somewhere around -129 degrees F (I may be off a little here) ------------------------------------ It is an asphyxiant and it will definately change your attitude (it's laughing gas). Reason enough to not introduce it INSIDE the aircraft. ------------------------------------ Use of Nitrous Oxide was first used by the Luftwaffe during the Second World War. ...Most people think this is an automotive technique. ------------------------------------ The Germans also sucessfuly used hydrazine for the first monopropellant aircraft. Art Christman secretely tried hydrazine as a fuel in the first funny car (his Mecury Comet) in the early 60's and promptly blew a 6 ft wide hole in the starting line at the Lions drag strip! NHRA immediately banned hydrazine as a fuel and its use as an automotive fuel never developed like nitrous oxide. :-( Elon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Blackman" <jeffreyb(at)spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9
Date: Apr 09, 1997
Well I definitely could be wrong but I thought I heard a guy cough up that the RV-9 was going to be a 2 place- high aspect ratio RV-6.....I'm thinking that's what he told me???? But hey......I don't know for sure what high-aspect ratio means???:-) Rumors, Rumors and more rumors......maybe Vans is still trying to decide??? ---------- > From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-9 > Date: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 6:27 PM > > > > Well, Van let the RV-9 out of the bag at the RV banquet last night. > > He said there was an NEW RV in the works, but when asked what it was > > going to be, he declined to answer. > > So gang, what do you think it will be. > > I think it will be a two place, tamdem, retract, TIO540, that will go by > > a lance air so fast it will suck the paint off of it ( hey I can hope > > for it anyway ). > > Let the rumor mill turn > > I can think of some possibilities: > > A severely beefed-up and modernized RV3, fast enough to make people say > "Harmon who?" > > Everyone's been nagging him to do a 4-place for ages. Maybe he finally is > going to do one. (Just to make it easier to go to trade shows with all his > stuff). Competing with the Stallion, Glastar, and the new Murphy plane in the > heavy hauler class would be a cinch, considering Van's rep. > > Or just to be silly, a half-scale DC-3. :-) > > Or maybe a flying boat. > > > -- > Richard Chandler > RV-6: Garage bought and being finished, saving for tools and tail kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Fred New <fred(at)ics.ee>
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2
On 9 Apr 1997, Robert Fritz wrote: > So keep your surfaces clean, lube the threads, and torque the nuts to the > specified load. I don't believe this is correct. Everything I've read says that you mustn't lubricate the threads--the torque value is for dry threads, if you lube, you can torque too tight. Perhaps if you are reading from a table for a particular type of lubrication this is correct. -- Fred New IC Systems (372) 656-5477 Systems Administrator Mustam=E4e tee 12 fax (372) 656-5476 fred(at)ics.ee EE0006 Tallinn, Estonia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 1997
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9 (now full chatter)
> >Well I definitely could be wrong but I thought I heard a guy cough up that >the RV-9 was going to be a 2 place- high aspect ratio RV-6.....I'm thinking >that's what he told me???? >But hey......I don't know for sure what high-aspect ratio means???:-) Aspect ratio is the ratio of wing span to average wing chord (width). Perhaps this is a cross between the 5:1 Aspect Ratio of the RV6 and the 25:1 Aspect Ratio of Van's personal DG self-launch sailplane?? It sure would cruise efficiently on that O-200 ...:^) .... Gil (like those long sailplane wings) Alexander RV6A, #20701 and owner of a Schemmp-Hirth Mini-Nimbus Sailplane N871T > >Rumors, Rumors and more rumors......maybe Vans is still trying to decide??? > > ------------------------------------------------------- mailto:gila(at)flash.net Gil Alexander, Los Angeles, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc.
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Ok, fellas, now that we have some scoop on Don George that sounds good, how about an address and telephone number for those of us who don't live down your way? If I missed an address somewhere, please excuse the note and let me know so I can look it up in the archives. I'm interested in a O320 for my -6A and can't afford a new one. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (about to put parts on fuselage jig) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Newsletter
You wrote: > > >The April issue of Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter is in the mail. <> >If you are interested in subscribing, drop me an E-mail with your address and >I will send you the first two issues of 1997 and a promise of two more >helpful issues. They can cross your check in the snail mail. It costs $5.00 >per year and comes with a money back guarantee. > >Jim Cone, Editor >Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter >422 Savannah Ridge Drive >St. Charles, MO 63303 >(314) 928-8703 >jamescone(at)aol.com > I will add that anyone building an RV who does not get this newsletter is making a big mistake to save 5 bucks. Best regards, Bill Costello -- Bill Costello | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com | Building RV-6 | Reserv N97WC Want an extra hour and a half of energy per day with Super Blue Green products? Email for info or call 800-325-7544 Chicago ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darrell L. Anderson" <d.l.anderson(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Mazda RV-3 (was Sun and Fun)
Date: Apr 10, 1997
>snip> >The Germans also sucessfuly used hydrazine for the first monopropellant aircraft. >Art Christman secretely tried hydrazine as a fuel in the first funny car (his >Mecury Comet) in the early 60's and promptly blew a 6 ft wide hole in the starting >line at the Lions drag strip! NHRA immediately banned hydrazine as a fuel and its >use as an automotive fuel never developed like nitrous oxide. :-( >Elon Hydrazine (H70) is used today as fuel for the emergency power unit (EPU) on the F-16. It is stored in a heavy stainless steel cylinder, and when needed (failure of main AC generator or BOTH hydraulic pumps) is forced by 3000 psi nitrogen charge through a catalyst bed, where it expands to drive a turbine shafted to a 5 kva generator and a hydraulic pump. Without engine bleed air to sustain constant EPU activation, it gives the pilot about 10 minutes of flight (glide?) at which time he runs out of power for the "fly-by-wire" flight control system. Hydrazine doesn't need oxygen to "burn". It is very toxic, and as they say, "If you smell it, you've been over-exposed". Spills, if they happen, are neutralized with a bleach solution. Nice stuff. Are we ready for and experimental "fly-by-wire" experimental? :) Darrell Anderson Montana ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Walsh <jwalsh(at)ftp.com>
Subject: Bolting and riveting #2
Date: Apr 10, 1997
>>Reply to your message of 4/9/97 11:35 PM =09 >>So keep your surfaces clean, lube the threads, and torque the nuts to th= e >>specified load. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Bob Fritz >> >> >>End of message Hi Bob, Here's the part I can't figure out. Since our Wing spar bolts are a light = press fit, what is the significance of torqueing them? In other words, a = "normal" assembly has a clearance hole around the bolt and the torque appli= ed uses the nut/bolt to squeeze the parts together. If the bolt is press f= it in the hole, then isn't the torque being resisted by the friction betwee= n the bolt and the hole? I have never come across a press fit bolt before = and I don't understand how that works. =20 John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Bonding tape
A few months ago there was a discussion on some structural tape that, among other things, could be used to bond on stiffner angles. I don't remember who the poster was and I would like to obtain some of this material to bond some stiffners on the back side of my firewall. I mounted the control unit for the Electroair (Jeff Rose) electronic ignition on my RV-6 and, even though I used a doubler, the installation still has some wobble to it. I thought I might bond several stiffners on the aft of the firewall and see if I can improve things. I know, I should have riveted the doubler on, but gee, I would have been a giant pain. It's amazing how crowded the firewall can become and riveting doublers on the firewall after the airplane is built is a job for someone younger, thinner and more flexable than me. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: teetime(at)konza.flinthills.com
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc.
I sure would like this guys address also. I am going to need an engine around summer time and need to start shopping now. Can't afford a new one but I can travel around looking for that special one calling out my name. Tim Sweemer RV4 2nd wing almost done, fuselage on order > >Ok, fellas, now that we have some scoop on Don George that sounds >good, how about an address and telephone number for those of us >who don't live down your way? If I missed an address somewhere, >please excuse the note and let me know so I can look it up in the >archives. I'm interested in a O320 for my -6A and can't afford a new >one. > >Jim Sears >RV-6A #22220 (about to put parts on fuselage jig) >AA5A Cheetah N26276 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
Hi Bob, I can't help you with the air-oil seperator but I'm interested in your decision making process in choosing the Electroair over Lightspeed's offering. Also, are you using the magnetic pickup or the mag hole version? Joel Harding ab320flyer(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Alan Carroll <carroll(at)geology.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: safety of homebuilts
When I was deciding on building I obtained safety info from EAA (they'll provide reports on specific aircraft) and from the "Landings" web page: http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*3137241!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/page s/search_ntsb.html This web page provides a search engine for the NTSB reports without having to go month by month. With regard to RV's specifically, I found NO reports of accidents involving inflight airframe failure for RV-4''s, RV-6's, or RV-6A's. I found this rather impressive considering the number of airplanes around and the unsupervised nature of their manufacture. I interpreted the apparent lack of failures as evidence of a very forgiving design. Since then an RV-4 crashed in Indiana with a possible horizontal tail failure, as mentioned in the RVator (still under investigation?). I'm watching with interest to see how this is eventually reported. Alan Carroll RV-8 #80177 (Empenage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Gascolator
You can see how great the need is for a gascolator by just looking at all those stalled out cars on the highways. By the way, where's the gascolator on the Debonair? Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Almost ready to start on the rudder halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9 (now full chatter)
With Van's penchant for gliding, maybe it's a glider/motorglider??? EB ------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT -------- SENT 04-10-97 FROM SMTPGATE @MAILMN (gila(at)flash.net) > >Well I definitely could be wrong but I thought I heard a guy cough up that >the RV-9 was going to be a 2 place- high aspect ratio RV-6.....I'm thinking >that's what he told me???? >But hey......I don't know for sure what high-aspect ratio means???:-) Aspect ratio is the ratio of wing span to average wing chord (width). Perhaps this is a cross between the 5:1 Aspect Ratio of the RV6 and the 25:1 Aspect Ratio of Van's personal DG self-launch sailplane?? It sure would cruise efficiently on that O-200 ...:^) .... Gil (like those long sailplane wings) Alexander RV6A, #20701 and owner of a Schemmp-Hirth Mini-Nimbus Sailplane N871T > >Rumors, Rumors and more rumors......maybe Vans is still trying to decide??? > > ------------------------------------------------------- mailto:gila(at)flash.net Gil Alexander, Los Angeles, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rivet Pattern
From: lm4(at)juno.com (Larry Mac Donald)
Date: Apr 10, 1997
writes: > >>Snip I'm ready to rivet my HS-610 and HS-614 to the HS-602. Drawing 3pp shows that the 4 rivets directly adjacent to the center line must be set with the flush heads aft but doesn't say which direction the heads should be for the rest of the rivets. Snip<< Ray, Look at the front view of 610-614 & 602." AN426 AD4-6 flush head aft". Now look at the side view to the right of that. See the arrows--"AN470" different # rivets and the print shows them, factory head fore and shop head aft. Larry Mac Donald lm4(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Painting a Quickbuild
Hi all, My 32 year old Debonair is not primed on the inside; anywhere. The aluminum is still as shiny as that going into my RV. Last summer, I replaced the elevator skins which are magnesium and well know for their corrosion problems. They corrode under the paint, especially paint like Imron, which mine has, and which does not breath. The paint is now 13 years old and still looks very good, just like the new elevators! Never wax it, I'm told. My quickbuild is already unprimed and I'm not about to take it apart to prime it. Is it still a good idea to prime the inside of the fuselage if the inside of the wings is unprimed? I did have my Deb treated with one of the anti corrosion oily stuffs but they only treat wings and empennage as they are what usually corrode. If I do prime assembled stuff, is there likely to be even more of a problem with corrosion in between unprimed surfaces? How much does priming everything add to empty weight? Finally, there is an HVLP paint gun called Lexaire, they have a web page: http://www1.usa1.com/~stephenb/2002.html Works with standard air compressor. Binks also has one, I believe, and it is less expensive. Has anyone any experience with either? Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Almost ready to start on the rudder halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: rv-?
While I was looking at the yellow -8 at sun-n-fun, I overheard van and bill talking about when the new prototype would be complete. They said something about availability of the zock or sock type engine might hold up the whole project. What's a zock or sock engine? Maybe this is a rumor? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: canopy on -4
Does anyone know if it is a major job to retrofit the sliding canopy to a -4? Does anyone know the comparisons such as headroom, weight, cost, ease of construction, etc, etc.? Thanks ahead of time for good answers. Thanks almost as much for good guesses. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Roger Embree <rae1(at)planeteer.com>
Subject: Re: VS Spar Position in Jig
I mounted my vertical stabilizer spar in the jig using the same method as the HS spar with the angles. I then noticed that the spar was not level. Of course it's not because the VS410, 411, and 412 are all different sizes. So should the angles on the jig be shimmed to level the spar before constructing the rest of the skeleton? The manual makes no mention of this. According to drawing 6a and normal conventions, all measurements are taken parallel and perpendicular to the rear spar. That would mean shimming the angle that holds the VS412 5/16". I don't see any shims like that in the video and I have not found anything relating to this in the archives yet (still searching). I hope this isn't a can o worms. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: (Doug Medema)
Subject: Identifying right angle air drill
I purchased a right angle air drill at Boeing Surplus knowing it had some problems but hoping I could still get a good deal if I could buy a couple of parts. In particular, it has a 5/16-24 spindle rather than the more useful 1/4-28. The spindle also had quite a bit of play. Today, I took it apart and found out the spindle was broken and the spindle bearings were shot. I need to get some parts but I can't find any clue as to the manufacturer of the drill. It is a small right angle drill about 10 inches long (not counting the air nipple) with a red ribbed cover over most of the body. The only numbers/letters on the whole drill are "AF 1200" right by the trigger. Does anyone on this illustrious list have a clue as to the manufacturer? I called Chicago Pneumatic and they didn't have a clue. Thanks for your help! Doug Medema RV-6A, working on the fuselage skeleton. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Walsh <jwalsh(at)ftp.com>
Subject: safety of homebuilts
Date: Apr 11, 1997
>>Reply to your message of 4/10/97 1:29 PM =09 >>Since then an RV-4 crashed in Indiana with a possible horizontal tail >>failure, as mentioned in the RVator (still under investigation?). I'm >>watching with interest to see how this is eventually reported. =09 Yes, so am I. Isn't Mitch Robbins a member of this list? Hello Mitch, an= y update???? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Moore" <dmoore8(at)tuelectric.com>
Subject: Re: rv-?
Date: Apr 10, 1997
---------- > While I was looking at the yellow -8 at sun-n-fun, I overheard van and > bill talking about when the new prototype would be complete. They said > something about availability of the zock or sock type engine might hold > up the whole project. What's a zock or sock engine? Maybe this is a > rumor? Zoche is a German that has been working on a diesel engine for aircraft applications. He has shown his development work at Oshkosh for years, but to my knowledge has not had one in use yet. More grist for the rumor mill. Dave Moore, RV-6 , Finishing kit is in the mail. dmoore8(at)tuelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com>
Subject: Re: rv-?
> >While I was looking at the yellow -8 at sun-n-fun, I overheard van and >bill talking about when the new prototype would be complete. They said >something about availability of the zock or sock type engine might hold >up the whole project. What's a zock or sock engine? Maybe this is a >rumor? Probably 'Zoche', the German diesel aircraft engine that's been "almost ready" for years now. See: http://193.26.97.194/ _______________________ DJ Molny "Realisant mon espoir, Evolving Systems, Inc. je me lance vers la gloire, OK..." djmolny(at)evolving.com -- Talking Heads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: rv-?
> From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Thu Apr 10 13:38:34 1997 > Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:25:42 -0500 > From: datastar.net!lottmc(at)matronics.com (Michael C. Lott) > Organization: JUST THINKING AND SMILING > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > While I was looking at the yellow -8 at sun-n-fun, I overheard van and > bill talking about when the new prototype would be complete. They said > something about availability of the zock or sock type engine might hold > up the whole project. What's a zock or sock engine? Maybe this is a > rumor? > It's a German 2-stroke radial diesel. A modular sort of thing that can produce up to 300HP. I think a moto-glider can be ruled out if this is to be the power. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK)
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: RV-9
Well, I was sworn to secrecy but, if Van has breeched the code of silence I guess I can now tell all. The RV-9 is/will be a 6 place amphibian motor glider/sailplane with aerobatic capabilities only when the 5th and 6th seats are unoccupied. Auxiliary power will be from an O-290 with electronic ignition. Most structural elements will be composite, but several key components must be hogged out of aluminum angle. Don't let Van know that I told you. George Kilishek ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: "Jerzy S.Krasinski" <krasins(at)master.ceat.okstate.edu>
Subject: Re: safety of homebuilts
The address http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*3137241 does not respond. Could you please check it again? Thank you Jerzy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills)
Subject: Re: Painting a Quickbuild
Hal, I dont have any personal experience with them, but...Lexaire claims that Boyd's Hot Rod Shop uses their guns exclusively. For anyone who doesnt know it, Boyd's is the premier custom rod shop in the country. If he uses and endorses the gun, its a gotta be a quality piece. On the other hand the best advice I got from the list when I asked about HVLP systems, was to buy a known brand name from a local dealer. Local support, training, and the ability to demo a gun at the dealer before buying, were very beneficial to someone like me with little painting experience. As far as I know Lexaire only sells factory direct, so its Binks, or DeVilbiss for me. Mike Wills RV-4(wings) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil >Finally, there is an HVLP paint gun called Lexaire, they have a web page: > >http://www1.usa1.com/~stephenb/2002.html > >Works with standard air compressor. Binks also has one, I believe, and it is >less expensive. > >Has anyone any experience with either? > > >Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Almost ready to start on the rudder >halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Dean & Scott Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Gascolator
Hal Kempthorne wrote: > > > You can see how great the need is for a gascolator by just looking at all those > stalled out cars on the highways. > > By the way, where's the gascolator on the Debonair? > Not sure about the Deb, but with some of the Pipers such as the Cherokee 6 for example, the gascolator is integral with the fuel selector -all one unit and is in the belly. Personally I am still a fan of gascolators only for their water trapping ability -all those cars on the freeway don't have gas caps that have been known to let in water during a rain. My life was possibly saved once by a gascolator in a Cessna 170. After draining all the sumps and finding no water I took off. The flight was a rough one (turbulent) over rough terrain and upon landing and refueling when I checked the gascolator I found it nearly full of water -evedently shaken loose from the nooks and crannies of the wing tanks during the ride. As I have mentioned in earlier postings my gascolator in the -4 is mounted in the fuse adj to the selector. Cheap insurance at $40. Hearing that engine belch or even quit over the mountains would have made me swallow my tongue. Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Louis Willig <larywil(at)Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc.
> >Ok, fellas, now that we have some scoop on Don George that sounds >good, how about an address and telephone number for those of us >who don't live down your way? If I missed an address somewhere, >please excuse the note and let me know so I can look it up in the >archives. I'm interested in a O320 for my -6A and can't afford a new >one. > >Jim Sears >RV-6A #22220 (about to put parts on fuselage jig) >AA5A Cheetah N26276 > > Don George, Inc. can be reached at (407) 422-0188 or, better yet, 1(800)222-6690. His FAA Repair Station No. is UA4R563M. His address is: 1339 W. Washington St., Orlando, FL 32805. Lou Willig, larywil(at)op.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: RV-9 with alternate engine? Dream on!
Zoche? Why would he design an airplane for an engine that is not even in production? He'd be more likely to do one for the new all aluminum 350hp Corvette engine. Yeah, sure. More likely the RV-9 would be a twin - with Lycoming IO-360's ! Even more likely, a side by side RV-8. Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Almost ready to start on the rudder halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: rv-?
From: bshaw5(at)juno.com (William H Shaw)
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Mike - It sounds like the German Zoche diesel engine to me!! It burns JP4 ! Any other comments? Bill Shaw RV6 #22236 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com>
Subject: RV Accident Data: NTSB + Analysis (LONG)
OK, the recent safety discussions have really gotten me interested in this topic. And it's a very timely discussion for me, because I'm interested in building an RV-8 but my wife hates the idea. She believes that experimentals are highly unsafe, with wings falling off regularly, etc. So I went to the NTSB archives (http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/months.htm), pulled all available monthly summaries (Jan. 83 through April 97), located the entries involving RVs, and downloaded the synopses for every recorded RV accident. I then sliced and diced the data in various ways, and got some interesting results. Side note: I share Mark Twain's sentiments about "lies, damned lies, and statistics", so I will do my best to insert disclaimers wherever appropriate. TOTALS ====== I was able to locate a total of 107 NTSB accident reports involving RV's. These were found by searching for the letters "RV3", "RV-3", "RV4", "RV-4", "RV6", and "RV-6" in the aircraft type field. Reports for RV-6A's were also picked up because the aircraft type would include the letters "RV6" or "RV-6". NTSB synopses were available for all but one of the accidents. Note: The search engine at www.landings.com only found 31 NTSB reports using the same search criteria, so use that source with caution. 102 different aircraft were involved in the 107 accidents. (See "Repeaters" below.) Assuming a fleet size of 1581 (source: Van's Aircraft web page as of 4/10/97, http://www.vansaircraft.com/main.htm), this means that 6.45% of all RV's have been involved in an accident at one time or another. Of the 107 accidents, 38 were fatal accidents with a total of 52 deaths. There were 28 serious injuries in 24 accidents, and 31 minor injuries in 25 accidents. There were no injuries of any kind in 31 of the accidents. This means that there is a 35.5% chance that at least one person will be killed in an RV accident, a 22.4% chance that at least one person will be seriously injured, and a 23.4% chance that at least one person will sustain minor injuries. There is a 29.0% chance that no one will be injured. Disclaimer #1: Note that some accidents involve a combination of fatal, serious, and minor injuries. Therefore the totals do not add up to 107, nor do the percentages add up to 100%. Disclaimer #2: The NTSB database only contains information about "accidents", which are defined as an aircraft operation in which "any person ... receives fatal or serious injury or any aircraft receives substantial damage." (Source: AOPA Air Safety Foundation "Nall Report", http://www.aopa.org/asf/nall.html) Therefore these data only apply to emergency situations that have an unhappy ending. Emergency situations that are resolved without injury or damage are not included in the data. PROBABLE CAUSE ============== I used the NTSB's probable cause determinations in all cases where one was available. The NTSB has yet to issue a probable cause determination for 10 accidents occurring after April '96. In those cases, I made my own best guess about probable cause; it is likely that some of these guesses will prove to be incorrect. There seems to be a fair amount of subjectivity in the NTSB's determinations. For instance, most people who run a tank dry are hit with a "pilot error - fuel management" judgement. However, the October '95 forced landing of N96VA was attributed to a faulty fuel tank sensor which led the pilot to switch to a dry tank while on approach. But one could certainly argue that the pilot A) should have known that the selected tank was nearly empty, B) should not have switched tanks at low altitude, and C) should have switched back to the other tank in an attempt to restart the engine. ACCIDENT TYPES ============== I went through all of the NTSB synopses, and grouped the accidents by probable cause. Here are the results: 107 Total accidents (100%) 25 Engine failures (23.4%) 71 Pilot errors (66.4%) 3 Prop failure (2.8%) 2 Structural failure (1.9%) 6 Unknown (5.6%) Note: Percentages do not add up to 100.0% due to rounding. According to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation's "Nall Report" (http://www.aopa.org/asf/nall.html), 70% to 80% of all GA accidents are eventually attributed to "pilot-related factors". The percentage of RV accidents due to pilot error is 66.4%. This suggests that mechanical factors do not affect RV's at a significantly higher rate than the GA fleet as a whole, despite the fact that RV's are amateur built and not FAA certified. DETAILED BREAKDOWN ================== Propeller: 3 (2.8%) 2 Blade separation 1 Retaining bolt failure Structural: 2 (1.9%) 1 Wing failure during low-level acro (RV-3) 1 Horizontal stab failure during acro (RV-4) (preliminary finding) Unknown: 6 (5.6%) Engine Failure: 25 (23.4%) 1 Carb ice 2 Fire 8 Fuel system 2 Induction Air 2 Ignition failure 2 Loss of oil pressure 8 Unknown failures, including one fire. Mogas was used in at least two of the engines that failed. Both induction air failures were due to improper construction techniques. There was one instance of carburetor ice that was designated an engine failure because the pilot did not have any choices - there was no carb heat system on the aircraft. Carb ice was suspected in several of the "unknown" accidents. All other instances of carb ice were designated pilot errors due to improper use of carb heat. Pilot Error: 71 (66.4%) 3 Exceeded design limitations 12 Low level acro 5 Low flying 10 Fuel mgmt 3 Improper use of carb heat 3 Poor judgement: weather 4 Hard landing 6 Landed short of runway 8 Loss of control on landing 3 Loss of control on takeoff 4 Departure stall (i.e. stall during initial climb) 4 Stall/spin in the traffic pattern 2 Mid-air collision 4 Preflight overlooked deficiency acro in RV-3's, and resulted in wing failures. In one case, a recording accelerometer showed a peak reading of 9.2G. There are a total of 20 accidents that I consider to be the result of "hot dogging": 12 low-level acro, 5 low flying, and 3 instances of exceeding design limitations. These represent 28.2% of all pilot errors, and 18.7% of all accidents. Some or all of the four departure stalls may be the result of "hot dogging" as well. Fuel management accidents stem from the two classic causes: insufficient fuel on board, or having the fuel selector valve in an improper position. The three weather accidents were: a night flight without instrument lights, continued VFR into IMC, and instrument flight in severe turbulence and icing over mountainous terrain. Two of these accidents resulted in four fatalities. There were a total of 29 pilot error accidents during takeoffs, initial climb, approaches, landings, go-arounds, touch-and-go's, et al. These represent 40.8% of all pilot errors, and 27.1% of all accidents. Of these 29 accidents, five occurred in the RV-6A (nosewheel) type. Disclaimer: I do not know the average percentage of RV-6A's in the fleet over the study period, therefore it is not possible to say if they are more or less prone to takeoff and landing accidents than their tailwheel cousins. Regarding the short landings, can RV pilots comment on how easy (or hard) it is to get behind the power curve in an RV? Also, it is worth nothing that this entire thread started because of a query about stall/spin accidents in the pattern; these represent only four of the 107 accidents recorded. REPEATERS ========= Four RV's (and probably a fifth) have the dubious distinction of appearing in the NTSB database twice. Brief synopses of those cases: - N319ER. 9/13/86: Landed short; attributed to pilot error; 1 serious injury. 6/23/90: Entered a steep turn shortly after takeoff, crashed in a nose-down attitude; attributed to inadvertent stall; pilot killed. - N371FZ. 5/21/89: Engine failure immediately after takeoff, landed on same runway but rolled into a ditch; attributed to improper routing of fuel lines; 1 minor injury. 5/5/90: Landed short; attributed to pilot error; 1 serious injury. - N726WM. 4/30/93: Pilot started engine with throttle wide open, resulting in a nose-over and prop strike; attributed to pilot error; no injuries. 9/23/95: Conducted a low fly-over of the runway, banked, and impacted trees on rising terrain; attributed to pilot error; 1 fatality, 1 serious injury. - N44AZ. 7/4/91: Emergency water landing following partial power loss; attributed to air induction tubing that collapsed due to improper routing; pilot killed, passenger received minor injuries. 5/11/96: Pilot killed in mid-air collision with a Sukhoi while landing. (This happened at Centennial airport in Denver, where I fly, so I heard additional details. The RV and Sukhoi were both cleared to land, on parallel runways. The RV pilot landed on the wrong runway, and the Sukhoi landed on top of him. The RV pilot was killed when the Sukhoi's prop went through the RV's canopy. Yuck.) - N312RG/N321RG. (Both of these planes are described as a "GOLIGHTLY RV-4", so it seems likely that they are the same plane and one of the N numbers was recorded incorrectly. N321RG is the a Pitts S1S, and N312RG is not an active N-number. Source: http://www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search.html) 9/26/92: Forced landing resulting in substantial damage; attributed to pilot's failure to switch tanks when one ran dry; no injuries. 12/26/93: Power loss following takeoff at 200-300' AGL, partial spin and crash; attributed to improper fuel line installation and failure to maintain airspeed following the power loss; pilot killed. In addition, N50WP, listed as a "JARRELL RV-3", was involved in a fatal crash on 8/6/92. N44AZ (see above) was listed as a "JERRELL RV-4". Coincidence? Dunno. ACCIDENTS BY YEAR ================= 1983: 5 1984: 0 1985: 4 1986: 5 1987: 0 1988: 7 1989: 8 1990: 7 1991: 8 1992: 8 1993: 16 1994: 11 1995: 14 1996: 12 1997: 2 (to date) is not surprising since the size of the fleet has also been increasing. It would be interesting to know whether the accident rate per registered RV is increasing or decreasing over time. Does anyone know the size of the RV fleet, by year? CONCLUSIONS =========== The accident causes do not suggest any glaring mechanical problems with the RV series, except perhaps for the RV-3 wing spars. And most of those failures occurred during hard acro, many at low altitudes. Takeoffs and landings account for many of the accidents, but this is true of all GA operations. The rate of "hot dog" accidents feels high to me, but that is perversely reassuring because they can be avoided by simply exercising good judgement. The overall GA fleet experienced 9.2 accidents per 100,000 flight hours in 1995. (Source: AOPA Air Safety Foundation "Nall Report".) However, the NTSB data do not give any insight into the frequency of RV accidents per 100,000 flight hours. I toyed with the idea of estimating the number of RV flight hours based on the total GA fleet hours and the percentage of RV's in the GA fleet. But I did not pursue this because A) I have no reason to assume that RV's are flown for the same number hours as the average GA aircraft, and B) the FAA "hours flown" number is itself a statistical estimate of unknown quality. If anyone can think of a way to estimate the RV accident rate per 100,000 hours, I'd love to hear about it. It's nice that the reasons for RV accidents are not unusual, but the rate of accidents is a complete unknown. I hope this information is useful, and am looking forward to reading your comments. I have entered the basic data on an Excel spreadsheet, which I will be happy to e-mail on request. _______________________ DJ Molny "Realisant mon espoir, Evolving Systems, Inc. je me lance vers la gloire, OK..." djmolny(at)evolving.com -- Talking Heads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Mike Weller <clue(at)sig.use.it>
Subject: Avery pneumatic squeezer
Hello all, I got my Avery pneumatic squeezer today. Nice tool, but I'm going to post a gripe and a question (probably a dumb question, but it won't be the last at the rate I'm going). First of all, the gripe. The tool was listed in the catalog for $335. The invoice was for $375. Of course, the catalog was a 1996 one. But, as much stuff as I've bought from them, they should have sent me a new catalog or at least told me about the price increase if they haven't published their new prices. For that matter, I received a 1997 catalog today from Cleavland and I haven't bought that much from them. OK, caveat emptor, it's not that big of a deal considering how much I've spent for tools in the past 6 months. But... Anyhow, on to my question about the pneumatic squeezer. It came with no instructions, etc. No problem. The touch-up spray gun that I bought from Avery had 4 pages of really detailed instructions about its care and use. To the point of being overwhelming. Fine. Real men don't read that stuff anyway. So, I hooked up the squeezer with my Avery longeron yoke that I've been using for dimpling. I bought the pneumatic after I started practicing on some scrap doing rivet squeezing. I'd read rave reports on this list about how nice it was and all of that. Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. With the hand squeezer, the set holder is adjustable, and worked very well. With the pneumatic, the set holder is solid, with no way to adjust the range of the squeeze. It falls about 5/8 in. short of a full squeeze. Ideally, I would think that with the nice touch that the tool has, one would begin the squeeze about 1/4 or so through the approximatly 1 in. of travel on the set holder. As I have the thing set up (30 min. of head scratching) it won't even touch the rivet at full travel. Please be gentle, I'm just a computer nerd/physics guy. I'm doing this project to learn more about mechanical stuff and hopefully end up with an RV-8. P.S. The advice from this group has been great. I can drive a decent rivet, and I'm now an expert on pr*mers. Thanks, Mike Weller RV-8 (under construction) midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com (preferred) or mike.weller(at)msfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Gascolator
Scott, I conclude from your story that gascolators are ineffective anyway! You had a large quantity of water in your tanks at the start of your trip & the device didn't help you detect it. The Deb doesn't have a gascolator but it does have a finger filter as they call it. A fine seive at a low point and, of course, a drain. Water and other foreign matter is a concern of mine too - especially IFT on V23 near Ft Jones (and Castle Crags) but the gascolator is not the answer. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: "James K. Hurd" <hurd(at)riolink.com>
Subject: Wing Spar Riveting Questions
1. Justice Manual says manufactured heads are forward. Pix in manual show even the outboard mfg. rivet heads forward (shop head formed on web)... Why are outboard shop heads not formed aft on the long, thicker-material spar strips? 2. Justice Manual refers to a wing kit-included notation on how to cut the 6x14 sheet of 1/8 aluminum for the rear spar doublers. Couldn't find it. Can someone tell me what is preferred pattern to cut doublers from sheet of 1/8? Thanks in advance. Jim Hurd New Mexico RV6A wings hurd(at)riolink.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2 IMPORTANT
Message text written by Fred New >> So keep your surfaces clean, lube the threads, and torque the nuts to the > specified load. I don't believe this is correct. Everything I've read says that you mustn't lubricate the threads--the torque value is for dry threads, if you lube, you can torque too tight. Perhaps if you are reading from a table for a particular type of lubrication this is correct. < Fred - You're absolutely correct. I checked The Tool and Manufacturing Engineers Handbook and yes, the torque values are calculated with DRY threads. I seem to remember working on a job some time ago where it had been specified by the design engineer (I'm a manufacturing engineer) to lube the bolts. Thanks for the quick eye. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kevin lane <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9
Date: Apr 11, 1997
> >Wasnt there a comment in an RVator last year about an O-200 being rebuilt >for a future project? Hmmm... Lets start the rumor mill churning. > > I agree that Van would head a direction no one else goes. An affordable engine is what we are all screaming for, so I would guess a tandem, 2 seat, with possible Franklin, Mazda, Subaru alternatives. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Bolting and riveting #2
Message text written by John Walsh >Hi Bob, Here's the part I can't figure out. Since our Wing spar bolts are a light = press fit, what is the significance of torqueing them? In other words, a = "normal" assembly has a clearance hole around the bolt and the torque appli= ed uses the nut/bolt to squeeze the parts together. If the bolt is press f= it in the hole, then isn't the torque being resisted by the friction betwee= n the bolt and the hole? I have never come across a press fit bolt before = and I don't understand how that works. =20 John < I'm gonna guess here so how 'bout you Home Wingers near Van's verify this. Alignment is critical. If you've a group of precisely placed holes that use large-clearance bolts you've defeated the purpose of the precision. However, if the bolts are a smooth-sliding fit you do, indeed, maintain the alignment------even if the frictional component (via loose bolts) is inadequate to maintain the alignment. I would reeeeeeeeeaally like to hear from Van's on this. cheers Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: rv-?
William H Shaw wrote: > > > Mike - > It sounds like the German Zoche diesel engine to me!! It burns JP4 ! > Any other comments? > Bill Shaw > RV6 #22236 No, I have spread too many rumors, already! But, Can you answer any of my questions about retrofitting a slider to a-4 that has a busted flip top on it now? Headroom + or -, ease of fitting, price, etc? How much is a new flip top? Oh, well, I ask too many questions. See ya later! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mazda RV-3 (was Sun and Fun)
> > Just vent it into the tailcone. It's not toxic, although it sure is cold! > Evaporation point is somewhere around -129 degrees F (I may be off a little here) > > ------------------------------------ > > It is an asphyxiant and it will definately change your attitude (it's laughing > gas). Reason enough to not introduce it INSIDE the aircraft. > > ------------------------------------ > >Elon, I know the effects of Nitrous Oxide. I have $6,000 worth of bridge work to prove it. Much better than Novacain!!! I merely suggested that venting it into the tailcone may be a sneaky way to hide the cloud. Of course I could be way off base on this whole idea of Nitrous Injection on that engine. Leaving the canopy slightly ajar might aliviate the fumes. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: "Robert G. Miller, Jr." <rgmiller(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imron and others
aol.com!PFPA(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > Yes, after almost 7 years, it's time to paint the plane and like almost > everything else from the finishing kit onwards, there are many unanswered > questions. My latest is about paint quality: > > Some say Imron is the only way to go and is very much worth the price. "It is > the industry standard." Others say that there are other brands that are just > as good and are a lot cheaper too. Although, among that other group are, of > course, all the people who are trying to sell those other brands. On the > other hand, auto finishes, especially on better cars, seem high quality and > certainly as good as any aircraft finish. > > What do you think? What are the options for quality paint. Are there > advantages to paying-up for Imron, or is it just a matter of the "famous > label." > > Thanks in advance for any help you can provide > Andy Gold Andy: A polyuruthane or acrylic polyuruthare finish is far superior to the cheaper enamels. Imron is one of the least expensive polyuruthane's on the market. You may consider Dupont's Chroma One. It is a acrylic polyuruthane designed as a replacement for Imron. Although it is more difficult to mix, it has a better shine and sprays easier. At Sun 'n Fun I saw the new yellow -8. The paint looked great and had a wet-look. It was painted with Superflite System IV (1-800-323-0611). Most of the show planes, especially the higher end models, use a base coat clear coat. Every one I spole to said they used Dupont's base croma base and croma clear. The advantage is that you can get onwe hell of a shine by using multiple layers of clear coat and you can virtually eliminate the ridge between colors. The down side is all that paint adds weight. Robert Miller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: "Robert G. Miller, Jr." <rgmiller(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc.
Louis Willig wrote: > > Dear Gang, > > Don George, Inc. has a booth at Sun'n Fun. They are Lynching engine > over haulers. Don claims he can sell me an overhauled 0-320, 160 hp. > with new: > > cylinder head assemblies > carburetor. > mags, harness, plugs > cam and lifters and push rods > starter (I think he said lightweight) > alternator > fuel pump > > He purchases the cores from a guy in Kansas who does Cessna 172 > conversions. > They are thoroughly inspected as are the cranks. The cost is about > $11,000. > Is this for real? Does anyone have experience with Mr. George? He is a > smooth > talker and that makes me wonder a little bit. OK, you engine gurus, > what do you think, and what else should I have asked? > > Lou Willig, larywil(at)op.net A couple of friends purchased engines from Mr. George. A good description would be junk with a capitol J. Robert Miller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: elrond(at)europa.com
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: Re: safety of homebuilts
Jerzy S.Krasinski wrote: > > > The address http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*3137241 does not > respond. Could you please check it again? > > Thank you > > Jerzy Try http://www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search_ntsb.html. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Bockius "Meltdown? Noooo, we prefer to call elrond(at)europa.com it an unrequested fission surplus." http://www.europa.com/~elrond -Montgomery Burns ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: "Robert G. Miller, Jr." <rgmiller(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: emergency canopy release
Not too long ago there was a thread questioning the merits of installing the emergency canopy release on the -6. An incident occurred at Sun 'n Fun last week that may merit reconsidering the installation. I personally did not see the incident and am only relaying what I heard second hand. A one-design was approaching Lakeland when it experienced an engine problem that spewed oil all over the canopy. The tower was able to talk the pilot down blind. The landing was rather hot and the plane bounced about 40 feet in the air. Fortunately, the pilot was able to walk to the ambulance. The a/c did not fare so well. If the pilot could have ejected the canopy, the plane may have been saved. While this man was lucky, I wouldn't count on that luck. It is also worth considering what would have happened if he was at an uncontrolled airport or further away from a control tower. I look at that emergency handle the same as I look at the life jackets on my boat. Hopefully I will never need them, but if I do I will be happy to have them. Robert Miller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 1997
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
>Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets >adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. With the hand squeezer, the set >holder is adjustable, and worked very well. With the pneumatic, the set >holder is solid, with no way to adjust the range of the squeeze. It falls >about 5/8 in. short of a full squeeze. Ideally, I would think that with the You need a supply of different thickness flat sets. For the shorter -3 rivets you need a pretty tall set. Mine came packaged as a set of six. One will be either just right for the rivet you are working, or a little short. If it is just undersized you can shim it with a thin washer or two. The idea is to get it to the point where the rivet is squeezed just right at full throw. You can also buy an adjustable plunger for your squeezer that lets you adjust it just like you did with the hand squeezer. I was going to get one of these, but have had such good luck with my $7.00 set of sets that I don't feel it's necessary. I have found that with longer -4 rivets I have to change sets after partially setting the rivet. My squeezer doesn't have the leverage to get one of those 4-8s in one pass. - Mike hartmann(at)sound.net http://www.sound.net/~hartmann ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Tom Goeddel <tgoeddel(at)monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
>Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets >adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. With the hand squeezer, the set ... You need to use 3/16" steel flat washers (AN-910 or AN-910L, for example) as shims under the rivet sets to adjust the thing so that when fully extended you get a proper sized shop head formed on the rivet. You want all of the action to happen at the end of the stroke. Hope that helps. Tom Goeddel RV-6a (fitting fuse longerons...) tgoeddel(at)monmouth.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernesto Sanchez" <es12043(at)utech.net>
Subject: Sport Aviation RV-6 article
Date: Apr 10, 1997
In this months Sport Aviation's issue there was an analysis of the RV-6's fluid dynamics. I have re-read the article a couple of times and have found it very interesting but I wish to understand the term "mean aerodynamic cord (MAC)" better. Can some give me a better explanation of this term?? How does a person figure "MAC" on a finished plane? It seems that a builder should strive for the best MAC for a cross-country plane. Ernesto Sanchez es12043(at)utech.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
>Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets >adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. With the hand squeezer, the set >holder is adjustable, and worked very well. With the pneumatic, the set >holder is solid, with no way to adjust the range of the squeeze. It falls >about 5/8 in. short of a full squeeze. Ideally, I would think that with the >nice touch that the tool has, one would begin the squeeze about 1/4 or so >through the approximatly 1 in. of travel on the set holder. As I have the >thing set up (30 min. of head scratching) it won't even touch the rivet at >full travel. Mike, You can buy an adjustable ram. I haven't purchased one yet but may. The way you adjust the amount of "set" is with a combination of different lengths of sets and/or varying thicknesses of 3/16" washers. The regular thickness an# washer is around .063", the thin is about half that and you can find some that are even thinner. The really thin ones that I use are made of aluminum. You may find, when squeezing #4 rivets, that you'll have to make two passes to set the rivet. The pnuematic squeezer developes most of it's power at the last of it's stroke. If you try to set a long #4 to final set, the squeezer may not do anything to the rivet. I go through and partially set the line of rivets, add another washer of the proper thickness and then finish setting the rivets on the second pass. The adjustable set is looking better and better. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Rick Osgood <rick(at)ccc.henn.tec.mn.us>
Subject: RV Accident Data
My thanks to DJ Molny for all the effort in his analysis of RV accidents. I feel more confident in my defense of experimental aircrafts with this data in hand. Nice job! -- Rick Osgood Hennipen Technical College Eden Prairie, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Wing Spar Riveting Questions
James K. Hurd wrote: > > 2. Justice Manual refers to a wing kit-included notation on how to cut > the 6x14 sheet of 1/8 aluminum for the rear spar doublers. Couldn't > find it. Can someone tell me what is preferred pattern to cut doublers > from sheet of 1/8? The pattern is a drawing in the instructions, which basically divides up the sheet into four pieces. You will need two 6X3 pieces for the flaps, and the remainder will be more than enough for the spar doublers. PatK - RV-6A - Finally! The left flap parts are at the paint shop. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4Brown(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
I have two different length rams purchased from Avery. One longer than the other. Depending on which rivet head your using you have to change rams. You will need to use the proper ram and shim with washers such that the ram is full stroke and you are achieving a proper rivet set. There is no way you can shim 5/8" with just washers. Any questions ask direct. RV4Brown(at)AOL.com My Avery riveter works great. Nice consistent rievt sets and it is easy on the hands. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: n5lp(at)carlsbad.net (Larry Pardue)
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
> >Anyhow, on to my question about the pneumatic squeezer. It came with no >instructions, etc. No problem. The touch-up spray gun that I bought from >Avery had 4 pages of really detailed instructions about its care and use. >To the point of being overwhelming. Fine. Real men don't read that stuff >anyway. > You put washers of the appropriate thicknesses under the dies. Kind of a pain if you need to change very much. There are adjustable devices available. I think they are in the 97 Avery catalogue. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM Pacer N8025D RV-6QME N441LP Left Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robbins Mitch <ROBBINM(at)chi.ntsb.gov>
Subject: safety of homebuilts
Date: Apr 11, 1997
John, Yes, I'm here. Although I'm not running the investigation, I've been looped in because of my experience with the airframe. Van also participated in the investigation as a party, thus, he is aware of the facts of the accident. There are several circumstantial events associated with the failure that are being evaluated. I understand an engineering study is/was underway, via an independent firm to look at a few particular issues. I'm reluctant to speculate or disclose specific facts to the list because I'm not the investigator in charge of the accident. Part of the charter of the board is to make recommendations to prevent accidents. No recommendations have been made with regard to this accident and I don't foresee any. In the past, I believe, Van has been very proactive regarding safety issues. The RV-3 rear spar issue is a good example. Please realize these are my personal opinions. I don't perceive any need for concern. If you would like to discuss facts feel free to phone me at 630-377-8177. > >>>Reply to your message of 4/10/97 1:29 PM > > >>Since then an RV-4 crashed in Indiana with a possible horizontal tail > >>failure, as mentioned in the RVator (still under investigation?). I'm > >>watching with interest to see how this is eventually reported. > >Yes, so am I. Isn't Mitch Robbins a member of this list? Hello Mitch, any >update???? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: n5lp(at)carlsbad.net (Larry Pardue)
Subject: Re: emergency canopy release
> > >Not too long ago there was a thread questioning the merits of >installing the emergency canopy release on the -6. An incident occurred >at Sun 'n Fun last week that may merit reconsidering the installation. >I personally did not see the incident and am only relaying what I heard >second hand. > > A one-design was approaching Lakeland when it experienced an engine >problem that spewed oil all over the canopy. The tower was able to talk >the pilot down blind. The landing was rather hot and the plane bounced >about 40 feet in the air. Fortunately, the pilot was able to walk to Robert, I don't think I would jettison the canopy of an RV-6 under these conditons. What would scare me more than lack of visibility would be the possible effect of all those square feet of canopy impacting the vertical stabilizer at speed. The only time I can conceive jettisoning is if I am going to bail out. The unanswered question is if the new hinge design will allow the canopy to jettison? Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM Pacer N8025D RV-6QME N441LP Left Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com>
Subject: Re: RV Accident Data
> >My thanks to DJ Molny for all the effort in his analysis of RV >accidents. I feel more confident in my defense of experimental aircrafts >with this data in hand. Thanks Rick. Glad you found it useful. _______________________ DJ Molny "Realisant mon espoir, Evolving Systems, Inc. je me lance vers la gloire, OK..." djmolny(at)evolving.com -- Talking Heads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Alan Carroll <carroll(at)geology.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: safety of homebuilts
Looks like the "Landings" address for NTSB searches got garbled in transmission. I'll try again: Helveticahttp://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*31= 48625!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search_ntsb.html >The address http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*3137241 does not >respond. Could you please check it again? > >Thank you > >Jerzy Alan Carroll RV-8 #80177 (Empenage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: DJ Molny <D.J.Molny(at)evolving.com>
Subject: RV Accident Data: NTSB + Analysis (LONG)
DJ Molny wrote: > > Regarding the short landings, can RV pilots comment on how easy (or hard) it > is to get behind the power curve in an RV? Also, it is worth nothing that ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ > this entire thread started because of a query about stall/spin accidents in > the pattern; these represent only four of the 107 accidents recorded. Um... that should say "worth noting". No slam intended. _______________________ DJ Molny "Realisant mon espoir, Evolving Systems, Inc. je me lance vers la gloire, OK..." djmolny(at)evolving.com -- Talking Heads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: emergency canopy release (Bill B. Question)
> >Not too long ago there was a thread questioning the merits of >installing the emergency canopy release on the -6. An incident occurred >at Sun 'n Fun last week that may merit reconsidering the installation. >I personally did not see the incident and am only relaying what I heard >second hand. > *** sinp - Lakeland accident desc. *** > >Robert Miller > Vans designed the canopy realease jettison system for the RV6 with straight caopy hinges and no gas lift struts. With this layout, I can see how the canopy would jettison in flight. However, the standard tip-up canopy design (for at least the last 2 years) is now with "gooseneck" hinges and gas lift struts. With this system, at an absolute minimum, some sort of quick-release pin would be needed on the gas struts, and even then, I'm not sure if the canopy could even actually leave the fuselage due to the "hook" effect of the gooseneck foward hinges. I'm all for safety devices, but are we kidding ourselves here with the re-design of the canopy hinges into the new gooseneck style? Bill B. --- is there any factory info. on the jettisonability of the newer design tip-up canopy, with and without the gas struts? .... Gil (still deciding where to put that handle) Alexander PS perhaps the archive thread on canopy breaking tools had the right idea. Using this sort of tool may be a solution to the "oil on the windshield" scenario referenced above. ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701 "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
> I'm in the process of installing a Jeff Rose, Electroair electronic >ignition. Bob: Enlighten me on your choice of Jeff's EI over Klaus's. I am trying to make up my own mind. When I talk to Jeff I come away thinking his is the better choice and when I talk to Klaus I like his better. I spent time with both at S n' F and am convinced that you can't go wrong with either, but would appreciate some input from others. I tried to get an unbiased opinion from an outside source while I was there and had a long conversation with the guys from Brackett??? ( the super engine shop in Tulsa that builds engines for all the competitive acro guys and gals). They weren't much help. They had installed both, but preferred the Laser system. They were high on Don Rivera's fuel injection stuff though. I have quite a while to figure it out, but, would appreciate some help. John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
>Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. Mike: You must use shims, 10 and/or 10L washers, or an adjustable set. bob Avery will have an adjustable set soon. (He had not finished machining them when I talked to him at Sun n' Fun). Action Air Parts has several all different lengths. You kind of have to know what you want to buy from Jerry. John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RG batteries . . . .
/I'm not sure how robust a battery of this type /will be in this application. I was under the /impression these batteries were more suitable /for back-up and low current demands rather than /regular engine starting. They are also a bit /fussy about being correctly recharged. A very large market for sealed lead acids is battery backup for uninterruptable power supplies for computers. Of course they're very popular for a lot of emergency power situations such as exit lighting, etc. The little versions are showing up in everything from camcorders to cellphones. There was some mythology floating around for some time that all sealed batteries were "fragile" while in fact, this was a carryover from people's experiences with gel cells . . . which are indeed easier to damage from overcharge than their flooded cousins. Some general notes on life . . . . Consider that a lead-acid battery that is cycled off the top 5% or so of capacity will transfer many more watt-seconds over it's lifetime than if it's cycled down to 50% of capacity per cycle. This is one reason why subtle changes in construction and chemistry are necessary for a battery are needed for deep cycle operation in golf carts, etc. Let's compare two battery scenarios using identical chemistry. Suppose we need 200 amps for 5 seconds to crank up the engine. This works out to 12,000 watt-seconds of energy pulled from the chemistry. Consider that a 10 a.h. battery will deliver about 400,000 watt-seconds while a 24 a.h. battery will pump out 950,000 watt-seconds. Cranking the same engine from the two batteries pulls them down 3 percent and 1.2 percent respectively. Now, in spite of the fact that BOTH batteries are initially capable of doing the same job when new, the smaller battery is being cycled 2.5 times deeper than the big guy. So, in spite of the fact that both are properly maintained AFTER the engine starts, the smaller battery can be EXPECTED to degrade faster from use. With respect to general robustness, the RG batteries I certified onto single engine airplanes had NO practical current limit for recharge . . . meaning that you could put them on a constant voltage bus with a pair of 400 amp starter generators and not fear for their health. I also demonstrated the ability of two, 22-pound, 24 a.h. batteries to start a Beech C-90 (PT6 engines). Now, in this application, they probably wouldn't last as long as the larger battery they replaced because of the cycle depth (it takes about 60,000 watt-seconds to start a C-90) but then, the RG batteries were 1/20th the price of the ni-cads they replaced. We're still wondering if we should do some cost of ownership studies to see if they're a practical subsititute When someone expresses some dis-satsifaction in the way an RG battery performs, I am primed to ask if they replaced with the SAME or SMALLER capacity, whether the battery was subject to total depletion followed by storage (battery master left on for two weeks . . . REALLY hard on a battery) and is the bus voltage where it belongs (13.8 to 14.2 tops). Initially, Concord asked that their RG products be maintained at 14.6 volts . . . about 0.4 volts higher than "normal". At OSH last year, Skip Koss showed me test data which indicated that the RG battery charged at the nominal 13.8 volts contained no less engergy than one charged at 14.6 . . . . By-in-large, I find no reason to consider the RG batteries as more "fussy" or "fragile" than any other technology of lead-acid battery. If one wishes to take advantage of their enhanced cranking capabilities and put in a LIGHTER battery of less capacity, then reduced service life should be EXPECTED . . . but considering that it's probably lower in cost too, the cost-of-ownership for keeping the battery servicable is probably close to a wash. The most useful thing you can do to extend battery life is keep the engine tuned up and deduce the technique for reduced cranking TIME. Electronic ignition is a BIG plus . . . these engines start in a few blades if there's fuel . . . so look at primer systems and best technique for use. How many people consider fuel sytems operations when trying to optimize battery life? (da leg bone's connected to the thigh bone . . . da thigh bone's connected to the . . . well you all know how it goes). Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552ompuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
Well, I'm going to steal his thunder, but Ed Cole came up with a way you can forget the washers, and the multiple thickness die sets, by "making" your own adjustable ram. Sounds like you already have the hand squeezer - take the set holder out of that, and buy a cap screw at OSH (I think that's what they're called - round headed bolt that takes an allen wrench). Get it about 1 1/4" long; it's metric I believe). Also, Avery sold me 2 set holders for about $8, in case you don't have the one from the hand squeezer. Grease the threads and thread the bolt into the set holder. Grease the head, and install. You can then turn to adjust, as with the hand squeezer, if you feather the ram out some to hold the bolt in place (otherwise it will turn with the set holder). I put the squeezer next to a rivet I'm going to do, extend it, and adjust it by sight. It's quick, accurate, inexpensive, and you don't have to keep track of those pesky washers! Hope this helps! EB #80131 - Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Yablon" <brian(at)lanart.com>
Date: Apr 10, 1997
Subject: In-flight Canopy De-ice/De-grease ? (was Emegency Canopy Release
Re: Emergency canopy release... I agree with Gil that the only time it makes sense to dump the canopy is when you're bailing out. I would look for other means to deal with contingencies like a blown oil hose. It seems to me to be a fairly straightforward exercise to install several winshield washer jets aimed strategically to clear an area of the canopy should oil, ice, mud or bird guts obstruct the pilot's view. I'd certainly prefer a system like this to 1) jetting the canopy and taking out my tail fin, or 2) chipping away at the canopy with a hammer. A mixture of Simple Green, isopropanol and water would make for a dandy all-purpose canopy solvent. Has anyone tried this? Do you know any reasons why this wouldn't work? -Brian Yablon brian(at)lanart.com Framingham, MA RV6A #24751 Getting ready to prime the wing spars... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernesto Sanchez" <es12043(at)utech.net>
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
Date: Apr 11, 1997
> > I'm in the process of installing a Jeff Rose, Electroair electronic > >ignition. >I tried to get an unbiased opinion from > an outside source while I was there and had a long conversation with the > guys from Brackett??? ( the super engine shop in Tulsa that builds engines > for all the competitive acro guys and gals). They weren't much help. They > had installed both, but preferred the Laser system. They were high on Don > Rivera's fuel injection stuff though. Who's Don Rivera? What kind of fuel injection does he produce? Thanks Ernesto Sanchez es12043(at)utech.net ---------- > From: John Top <cts.com!jjtop(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: air/oil separator > Date: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 6:17 PM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Shelby1138(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Don George, Inc. Response
First, I have also been talking to Don George and feel fairly positive about his operation. I talked to him this morning because I have just purchased an engine in Orlando and was asking if he thought I should have him go over it. For a couple of reasons he indicated this probably wouldn't be necessary. I probably would have spent some money had he advised me to do so. Secondly, I faxed him some of the messages that have appeared the last few days and he faxed me a response. Feel free to call him on any issue. With respect to his special {Don's Response} > > Don George, Inc. has a booth at Sun'n Fun. They are Lynching engine > over haulers. Don claims he can sell me an overhauled 0-320, 160 hp. > with new: > > cylinder head assemblies > carburetor. > mags, harness, plugs > cam and lifters and push rods {Push rods not new but with not normally replaced} > starter (I think he said lightweight) - {Sky-Tec} > alternator > fuel pump > > He purchases the cores > They are thoroughly inspected as are the cranks. The cost is about > $11,000. {$13900} > Is this for real? Does anyone have experience with Mr. George? He is a > smooth > talker and that makes me wonder a little bit. OK, you engine gurus, > what do you think, and what else should I have asked? With respect to the H2AD engine - {these are not H2ADs and says} { "when we provide an engine, we know the application and provide the proper engine - and not anything else."} With respect to: >A couple of friends purchased engines from Mr. George. A good >description would be junk with a capitol J. >Robert Miller {Nice second hand info, please support this statement if you can, if you can't then apologize. } >Smooth talker {As far as a "smooth talker" is concerned, I'll not appologize for my knowledge. It has come at a high cost. The largest problem I see is people hear what they would like to hear, that's exactly why I insist on a written letter prior to a sale or a deposit. A smooth talker is someone that tries to sway you one way or another in a deceptive manner. If someone is disastified with an engine I have provided I want to hear about it. I want them to be totally satisfied with what we provide. I go to great pains to provided accurate information. I am not in this business for the next five years,I want to be hear for the next twenty.} Don seems to be a fairly young fellow in business 12 years and knows what he is talking about. It would seem to me and my impression bears this out, he is very conscious of his reputation, seemed to be very willing to share info and advice(in my case) and would have a great deal to gain over the long term by fair and honest representation. He expressed an interest in our RV-list and I think he might have something(knowledge/perspective) to offer. His address for anyone who needs or wants it is: Don George, Inc. 1339 W. Washington Street. Orlando, FL 32805 Phone 1-800-222-6690 Fax - 1-407-422-0836 Shelby in Nashville RV6A - ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
>Bob: > >Enlighten me on your choice of Jeff's EI over Klaus's. I am trying to make >up my own mind. When I talk to Jeff I come away thinking his is the better >choice and when I talk to Klaus I like his better. I spent time with both >at S n' F and am convinced that you can't go wrong with either, but would >appreciate some input from others. I tried to get an unbiased opinion from >an outside source while I was there and had a long conversation with the >guys from Brackett??? ( the super engine shop in Tulsa that builds engines >for all the competitive acro guys and gals). They weren't much help. They >had installed both, but preferred the Laser system. They were high on Don >Rivera's fuel injection stuff though. >John Top #5372 John & Joel, I chose Jeff Rose's Electroair based on an installation that I'd seen and several positive comments from RVers whom I respect. I'm using the mag drive version as it looked like a cleaner installation and I already have my ring gear occupied with a Braal electronic tach and it's associated parts. I wasn't impressed when I read Ken Scott's article in the RVator on the installation of Klaus Saviers(?) system. It looked like a giant pain and as I said, the front of my engine had enough clutter. Also, the Electroair system is cheaper. Something I have to keep in mind with two daughters in college and having the pleasure of owning two houses. I think I may have read where Klaus has developed the mag drive version which would be an improvement over the front mounted unit. I think the Laser system would be great. There is an advantage to having a backup system. Of course, you have all the wearing parts of mags and the attendant AD's to contend with, as well. The cost factor kept me from putting it on the RV I'm flying now. Maybe on the next six. Regards, Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Wade <DWade(at)microcraft.com>
Subject: Bolting and riveting #2
Date: Apr 11, 1997
I would definitely agree with the response by Bob. A light press fit will not hold together in a dynamic, highly loaded environment. The bolt is acting like any other bolt in this application, it is just in a tight hole to take out any slop or misalignment. According to the NASA Design Reference Manual D-BN-0012, a Class IV cylindrical fit is defined as "snug or push fit: Closest fit which can be assembled by hand and necessitates work of considerable precision. Should be used where no perceptible shake is permissible and where moving parts are not intended to move freely under a load." Class IV fits have a clearance between 0.0001" and .0018" depending on hole size (yes, those are supposed to be ten thousandths). A Class V fit is an interference fit. >---------- >From: Robert Fritz >[SMTP:owner-rv-list(at)matronics.c >om] >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 1997 1:48 PM >To: RV; List; rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Bolting and riveting #2 > > >Message text written by John Walsh >>Hi Bob, > >Here's the part I can't figure out. Since our Wing spar bolts are a >light = >press fit, what is the significance of torqueing them? In other >words, a = >"normal" assembly has a clearance hole around the bolt and the torque >appli= >ed uses the nut/bolt to squeeze the parts together. If the bolt is >press f= >it in the hole, then isn't the torque being resisted by the friction >betwee= >n the bolt and the hole? I have never come across a press fit bolt >before = >and I don't understand how that works. =20 > >John > >< > >I'm gonna guess here so how 'bout you Home Wingers near Van's verify >this. > >Alignment is critical. If you've a group of precisely placed holes >that use >large-clearance bolts you've defeated the purpose of the precision. >However, if >the bolts are a smooth-sliding fit you do, indeed, maintain the >alignment------even if the frictional component (via loose bolts) is >inadequate >to maintain the alignment. > >I would reeeeeeeeeaally like to hear from Van's on this. > > >cheers > > >Bob Fritz > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RodWoodard(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer
> >Anyhow, on to my question about the pneumatic squeezer. It came with no > >instructions, etc. See page 41 of the 1997 Avery catalog: ADJUSTABLE SET HOLDER FOR PNEUMATIC SQUEEZERS This set holder is made to replace the rigit (2-9/16") set holder standard to most CP214 style pneumatic squeezers. This adjustable set holder will eliminate the need to shim the dies and sets with shim washers. Adjustments are faster & easier. NOTE: ONLY FOR YOKES WITH 1" THICK BASE OR LESS PART # 274, PRICE: $49.00 ea. Avery: 1-800-652-8379 or 817-439-8400 For $49.00 I might just stick with my lovely $0.35 worth of washers. :-) Rod (the cheapskate) Woodard Loveland, Colorado RV-8, #80033 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: grihen(at)juno.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Crankshaft Reconditioning
I used Aircraft specialties to recondition my crankshaft on the recommendations of three different A&Ps that I know. They had to machine it . 006, nitride it and inspect it for the crankshaft AD. I thought the price to be right at approx $325 and it looks great ( I haven't re-assembled the engine yet). I highly recommend them. John Henley (grihen(at)juno.com) bolting on the empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation RV-6 article
<< I wish to understand the term "mean aerodynamic cord (MAC)" better. Can some give me a better explanation of this term?? How does a person figure "MAC" on a finished plane? >> Ernesto- The MAC is simply the chord of the wing as designed. In any straight or consistently tapered wing situation the MAC can be calculated as .667*(Cr+Ct-((Cr*Ct)/(Cr+Ct))), in spreadsheet format. Cr = Chord at the root, Ct = Chord at the tip. For Van's current designs, the chord is constant from root to tip so just measure it. For my 6 it is 58.1875". Since it is the wing that flies we must balance the rest of the structure around it. The cg range is a percentage of the MAC (I think Van's uses 17% to 29% MAC as the safe operating range on the 6). Since the aspect ratio is the span divided by the MAC, a low aspect ratio wing provides a greater longitudinal distance for the cg range than would a higher aspect ratio design (assuming equal wing areas in the comparison). This is good for supporting the different loading conditions needed in a cross-country bird like the 6 and helps even more for the tandem designs (4 & 8). -G. VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: insurance
I need to move a plane (on a trailer) Monday. Does anyone know a good company to call for some quick coverage, and how much it might cost? The wings will be on the trailer, too. I would be afraid to pull it 600 miles without some coverage incase it hits the pavement, or worse, somebody. I'll be as careful as I can be, but you never know. Thanks, in advance. Michael C. Lott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
> Enlighten me on your choice of Jeff's EI over Klaus's. [snip!] I helped Ken Scott install the Lightspeed system with flywheel timing on his RV-6, and based on that experience would not put one on my plane. I do not have any experience with other EI systems, but I didn't like the fact that you had to get the timing sensor bolted/clamped "just so", and the installer was required to drill and tap a hole in "just the right place" on the flywheel, and the bolt head had to protrude "just the right amount" or it would either not trigger the sensor or knock the sensor off.... the point being that it was pretty tricky, and the reliability depended too much on the ability of the installer to get it just right. Not that we didn't get it just right, but it was a PITA. And I still think that that thing could possibly vibrate out of position some day, and go WHACK! off of there.... I seem to remember hearing or reading that Klaus had gone to a mag drive system? If so, then that would be different. Other than the timing sensor set-up, the system seems pretty good to me. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Frank Smidler <smidler(at)dcwi.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9
Richard Chandler wrote: > > Or just to be silly, a half-scale DC-3. :-) > Who says its silly. If it has a rear side door for me and my closes 5 skydiving buddies I might be interested. Of couse it would depend on where they could get the appropriate size round engine. I has to have round engines. Frank Smidler working RV-6 finishing kit smidler(at)dcwi.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc. Response
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Now that I've heard stories both ways, I'd like to know what's supplied with the Don George overhaul to let me know what's been done to the engine. Do I get a parts list, etc. that shows all of the things that have been done? When I had my O320 overhauled by a friend of mine, I got a complete record of what was done to include all of the invoices. That became very important when Father FAA started playing with the oil pump ADs again. I don't want to pay a lot of money for an engine that's had marginal parts put back in the engine. When I redid mine, I tossed out or repaired any marginal part so that I'd be assured it would last a long time. I'd expect no less from any repair shop. Folks, I can't afford to put a lot of money in a piece of junk. I'd like to leave the experimentation to someone else. As a builder who lives 700 miles from Don George, I have to depend on his reputation in his area. I hope you fellas who are defending him can back up what you say, as well as those who must defend their position that he puts out junk engines. Although I'm not putting him down in any way, I must listen to those who may have heard of some of his bad work, as well. I can't just take an engine right back to him like you fellas down there can. Shelby in Nashville, you'd be in the same boat I'm in up here in KY. We both have to be very careful. I know I won't buy an engine from T.W. Smith just because I've heard so much bad about them. And yet, I've also heard good about them. Alas, I need an engine fairly badly and see Don George as a possible source. I hope you fellas can prove that out. I do plan to talk with him; but, talk is cheap from some. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (putting bulkheads on jig) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Dean & Scott Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2
The spar bolts in your RV are, like a lot of us, working two jobs. They are clamping (loaded in tension) the spar laminations together and attaching the wing to the fuselage. They are also loaded in shear as well when carrying flight loads. So the situation of a light press fit allows both to happen -Not so much slop that the bolts cannot work efficiently in shear, and not so tight a fit that torquing them is a dubious task. This is really not rocket science. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RMille6453(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 1997
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc. Response
Jim, good luck on your search for an engine. I had my engine overhauled in 1992 and had to replace a cracked cylinder this year, it also had a bad exhaust guide on the same jug, 2500 TT 500 SMOH. Lessons learned: (1) Extra money spent on flow balancing and porting by LYCON was worth it. (2) Likewise dynamic propellor balancing after overhaul. (3) I wish I had replaced the jugs with new ones at overhaul rather than reusing the old ones. (4) Replacement of factory starter with BC unit well worth the money. (5) New alternator and mags prevent being stranded a long way from home. No easy (cheap) solution at overhaul time. Best wishes. Rob Miller Cheetah N26256 Working on RV8 Left wing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Mike <MNellis(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Hello from Chicago
>> 1. Don't prime inside. You can spray Veriprime in 40deg F with no problem ( I have done this regularly). Just clean the parts and run outside with them. Shoot 'em and bring them back in. << I met with the local Chicago Area RVators today and they gave me some tips on priming as well. They're a great bunch of people with a ton of experience between them. I spent some time last year attending some of the weekly informal lunches and one of local RV flyins. I'll try and make the get togethers more frequent now that I can contribute and have a better idea of what they are talking about. The primer of choice around here seems to be the Sherwin Williams "primer wash". It's supposed to be a self etching primer that goes on easy and dries hard. I asked about prepping the surface and was told that Naptha, mineral spirits, MEK or even Coleman Fuel could be used as an excellent surface cleaner (I've got gallons of Coleman Fuel). I've also read through the RV-List archives and got tremendously confused. There seems to be so much to know, information overload is the end result. I like the idea of keeping weight down with alumiprep and alodine but I don't know if I like the extra effort it seems to entail. Actually, I'm considering not even priming the Alclad portions that do not contact anything. I just want to fly the plane, not use it as a submarine :). I'm going to give it some more thought. I like the idea of priming the stuff outside. I figure with some plywood on a couple of saw horses it could work well. With the nice weather coming up (it snowed here in Chicago today) it should be a little easier to prime outside. I suppose a respirator is still a good idea even if you do the work outside. Decision, Decisions and I don't even have my tools yet. I ordered the tools today from both Cleveland and Avery. I set up a spreadsheet that compared most all items I needed (or thought I'd need to start with) and considered quality first and price second. The spreadsheet did the comparisons for me and also made it easy when the time came to order. I think I spent way to much time contemplating this Jig stuff. Last year Rod Woodard sent me some plans for a plywood jig he built and that was the basis for how I built mine. It was cheap and, since it's free standing and I couldn't find a straight piece of 4X4 lumber, the plywood cross member provides plenty of stability. I was going through the plans a little more thoroughly this evening and I can't find any reference to hinge alignment pins being needed. I suppose I'll keep them on the order and just verify that the Pre Punched stuff lines up. This Pre punched stuff sure seems to save a lot of work. The revised empennage plans that came with the kit are only about 4 pages long instead of 8.5 on the Preview Plans Manual. I'll keep you and the list apprised of how things progress. Mike Nellis, MNELLIS(at)compuserve.com Empennage Inventory complete, Jig built, Anxiously waiting for tools to arrive.Mike Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
Randall Henderson said: >I seem to remember hearing or reading that Klaus had gone to a mag drive >system? Randall: I talked to Klaus at S n' F and he described a 2 bolts thru the flywheel system. That does sound like a pain. Based on my discussions with both Jeff and Klaus I came away with the impression that Jeff's system was a lot easier to install and had an advantage in timing accuracy. John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: air/oil separator
>Who's Don Rivera? > >What kind of fuel injection does he produce? He is with Airflow Performance. Can inject just about any engine whether it has injector ports or not. John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV Accident Data
DJ Molny wrote: > > > > > >My thanks to DJ Molny for all the effort in his analysis of RV > >accidents. I feel more confident in my defense of experimental aircrafts > >with this data in hand. > > Thanks Rick. Glad you found it useful. > > _______________________ > DJ Molny "Realisant mon espoir, > Evolving Systems, Inc. je me lance vers la gloire, OK..." > djmolny(at)evolving.com -- Talking Heads DJ there were several accidents due to improper fuel line installation, do you or anyone else know what was done wrong. I have been told a lot of times that improper fuel systems have caused a lot of home built accidents. I plant to stick real close to the plans but I have never done this before so I want to know all I can. Craig Hiers N143CH Tallahassee,FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rvbildr(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: insurance
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Mike, I use Avemco to insure my project in the "ground only" mode. It covers transportation of the project via road. I called them and asked them specifically if it was covered. They assured me that it was. Drive very carefully. Mal rvbildr(at)juno.com installing vert. stab. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cafgef(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: RV Accident Data: NTSB + Analysis (LONG)
<< If anyone can think of a way to estimate the RV accident rate per 100,000 hours, I'd love to hear about it. >> DJ, I've heard that RV'ers fly about 100 hours per year as compared with the average GA with 50 hours per year. I would be interested to know if that is correct. Gene; cafgef(at)aol.com trying to figure where all the wires and hoses go ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2
Message text written by Dean & Scott Spencer > The spar bolts in your RV are, like a lot of us, working two jobs. They are clamping (loaded in tension) the spar laminations together and attaching the wing to the fuselage. They are also loaded in shear as well when carrying flight loads. So the situation of a light press fit allows both to happen -Not so much slop that the bolts cannot work efficiently in shear, and not so tight a fit that torquing them is a dubious task. This is really not rocket science. < Do you assume this to be the case or are you speaking from first-hand knowledge that Van did, indeed, design it thus? Not a flame.....just an important clarification. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
>Does anyone have somewhere I could access a definitive chart or page on Pop >Rivets ? I can't seem to find any indepth information on them. Denny: I have been looking for a response to your query. Did anyone answer direct or did you just draw a blank? John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lauritsen" <clevtool(at)tdsi.net>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic Squeezer
Date: Apr 11, 1997
The pneumatic squeezer is a terriffic tool but does require some understanding of its set up. It is manufactured for factory production use and I'm sure the operators get on the job training. Squeezers do not come with instructions from the manufacturer but we do have an info sheet we include. Buzz has also written up additional instructions to explain use. Do practice on scrap to become familiar with this powerful tools operation. A few pointers: 1) Always disconnect air before changing dies or sets. 2) Never exceed 90 psi. Power is developed through mechanical advantage not increased air pressure. 3) Never use air tool oil in the tool. Oil will wash out the grease and ruin leather piston. 4) Always drill and deburr the appropriate sized pilot hole for the dimple die. Never NEVER use as a punch! 5) For Dimpling: Insert male die in top of yoke, female die in the ram, plus a couple of thin shim washers. Slowly operate squeezer to close dies. Carefully rotate dies. Disconnect air and add shims. Repeat until closed dies are just tight enough to be difficult to rotate with finger pressure. Note shim combination used. Add or remove shims to adjust for various skin thicknesses. Practice dimpling. Compare under squeezed and over squeezed dimples. Note the differences in the dimple shape and in the "flat" skin around the dimple. Note and use shim combinations to get desired result in each skin thickness.. 6) For Riveting: Use the 1/8" long flat set or 1/8" long cupped set in the top of the yoke. Choose the correct length of flat set to correspond to the length of rivet being squeezed. Long rivet - Short flat set Short rivet - Long flat set We use the set of 8 ranging from 1/8" to 1/2" long. Hardened shim washers are added under the flat set in the ram for fine adjustment. Common washers will work but do squash out and hinder repeatability. The actual setting of the rivet occures during the last 3/16" of the ram travel - where the squeezer produces power. Practice. This will soon become your favorite method of dimpling and riveting. DJ Lauritsen Cleaveland Aircraft Tool 2225 First St. Boone, IA 50036 1-800-368-1822 clevtool(at)tdsi.net http://www.cleavelandtool.com ---------- > From: Mike Weller <sig.use.it!clue(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Avery pneumatic squeezer > Date: Thursday, April 10, 1997 7:50 PM > > > Hello all, > > I got my Avery pneumatic squeezer today. Nice tool, but I'm going to post a > gripe and a question (probably a dumb question, but it won't be the last at > the rate I'm going). > > First of all, the gripe. The tool was listed in the catalog for $335. The > invoice was for $375. Of course, the catalog was a 1996 one. But, as much > stuff as I've bought from them, they should have sent me a new catalog or at > least told me about the price increase if they haven't published their new > prices. For that matter, I received a 1997 catalog today from Cleavland and > I haven't bought that much from them. > > OK, caveat emptor, it's not that big of a deal considering how much I've > spent for tools in the past 6 months. But... > > Anyhow, on to my question about the pneumatic squeezer. It came with no > instructions, etc. No problem. The touch-up spray gun that I bought from > Avery had 4 pages of really detailed instructions about its care and use. > To the point of being overwhelming. Fine. Real men don't read that stuff > anyway. > > So, I hooked up the squeezer with my Avery longeron yoke that I've been > using for dimpling. I bought the pneumatic after I started practicing on > some scrap doing rivet squeezing. I'd read rave reports on this list about > how nice it was and all of that. > > Well, what I just don't get is how to get the length of the rivet sets > adjusted close enough to squeeze a rivet. With the hand squeezer, the set > holder is adjustable, and worked very well. With the pneumatic, the set > holder is solid, with no way to adjust the range of the squeeze. It falls > about 5/8 in. short of a full squeeze. Ideally, I would think that with the > nice touch that the tool has, one would begin the squeeze about 1/4 or so > through the approximatly 1 in. of travel on the set holder. As I have the > thing set up (30 min. of head scratching) it won't even touch the rivet at > full travel. > > Please be gentle, I'm just a computer nerd/physics guy. I'm doing this > project to learn more about mechanical stuff and hopefully end up with an RV-8. > > P.S. The advice from this group has been great. I can drive a decent > rivet, and I'm now an expert on pr*mers. Thanks, > > Mike Weller RV-8 (under construction) > midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com (preferred) or mike.weller(at)msfc.nasa.gov > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <DougR(at)netins.net>
Subject: Re: In-flight Canopy De-ice/De-grease ? (was Emegency Canopy
Release
Date: Apr 11, 1997
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC4662.AABEC6A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4662.AABEC6A0 charset="us-ascii" Maybe we could carry and automatic tire changer so if we have a flat we = can change that too, and a some epoxy to bond a prop tip back on if we = throw it, and a .......... Go get some dual in the back seat of a Stearman. You can't see a damn = thing from back there. If there is any part of the runway you can see = will not land on it. You do not need to see much to land an airplane. = In the old days before hot w/shields it was done all the time. they had = the alcohol system you describe and it was of little value on a bad day. = BTW, freight hounds still do it every winter night in iced up Beech = 18's all across the northland. All you need is confidence not much = visibility. IMHO Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)netins.net http://www.petroblend.com/dougr =20 =20 snip- It seems to me to be a fairly straightforward exercise to install several winshield washer jets aimed strategically to clear an area of the canopy should oil, ice, mud or bird guts obstruct the pilot's view. A mixture of Simple Green, isopropanol and water would make for a dandy all-purpose canopy solvent.=20 Has anyone tried this? Do you know any reasons why this wouldn't work? ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4662.AABEC6A0 charset="us-ascii"
Maybe we could carry and automatic tire changer so if we have a flat = we can=20 change that too, and a some epoxy to bond a prop tip back on if we throw = it, and=20 a ..........

Go get some dual in the back seat of a Stearman. You can't see a = damn thing=20 from back there. If there is any part of the runway you can see will = not land=20 on it. You do not need to see much to land an airplane. In the old = days before=20 hot w/shields it was done all the time. they had the alcohol system you = describe and it was of little value on a bad day. BTW, freight hounds = still do=20 it every winter night in iced up Beech 18's all across the northland. = All you=20 need is confidence not much visibility.
IMHO
Doug Rozendaal
dougr(at)netins.net
http://www.petroblend.com/dougr<= /A>

snip-
It seems to me to be a fairly straightforward exercise to install
several winshield washer jets aimed strategically to clear an area = of
the canopy should oil, ice, mud or bird guts obstruct the pilot's
view. A mixture of Simple Green, isopropanol and water would make = for=20 a
dandy all-purpose canopy solvent.

Has anyone tried this? Do you know any reasons why this = wouldn't
work?

------=_NextPart_000_01BC4662.AABEC6A0-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Finn Lassen <finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9
Don't get your hopes up too high. At the forum next day: 1) No retractable aticipated (no advantage at 200 mph speeds vs. cost/weight). 2) No four place in the near future... but then again Van didn't say never. By the way, Bill Benedict is off this list till he returns from Sun'n'Fun. We might re-post these questions when he's back. > > I bet it will be a 4-place of some sort... > > Matt > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Wing: rib stiffeners at 73.5
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Okay, I'm stumped. I'm building a 6A. The rib at station 73.5 is to be modified with 3 stiffeners, according to the plans. Two of them -- running fore and aft near the fore end of the rib -- are to be 1/8 aluminum angle. The 3rd -- running top to bottom and just aft of the first two -- is shown to be .063 AA. The problem is -- I can't find any 1/8 angle in the kit. Okay -- I can -- there's two 14-footers and two 10'10"-ers, but the pick list says these are part of the fuselage. Specifically -- the longeron angles and "aluminum angle 4 firewall". I've looked through all my supplies, then grabbed the pick list. So what's the deal? Also, after cutting all the stiffeners for the wing ribs so far, I still have 5 of the 12-foot AA6-063 angle. 4 of these are listed as belonging to the fuselage. I'm assuming I can keep cutting off the 5th one. But I'm wondering if I'm going to use a lot more of it. Comments? -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-551-1072 14190 47th Ave N. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: Don George, Inc. Response
When I got my engine from Don, I got a complete list of all of the new parts that were installed and yellow tags for everything else. I drop shipped an Ellison Throttle Body, Pelican Alternator and Sky Tech Starter to him and he even made me a bracket for the alternator at no charge. He credited me for the carb and the starter that came with the core. When I listened to his sales presentation, I too was warry because he seemed too good to be true. As I was talking to Don, one of his old customers came up to say "Hi" and Don told me to ask him what he thought. This customer began to sing his praises, just like I am doing now, and I was convinced enough to go visit his shop in Lakeland. After visiting his shop, I bought an engine. I got exactly what I asked for; a first runout engine with no damage history, modified to 160 hp with the accessories that I sent to him. When I got the engine, the quick drain on the oil pan seeped and would not stop, I called him and he sent me a new one, no questions asked and didn't even ask for the old one back. I wasn't too impressed until I saw an advertisement for the same quick drain for $65.00!!! When one of the new Slick mags acted up, he sent me a new one and asked for the "old" new one back in the same box so he could get credit from Slick. Don was very helpful to me when I had questions about the installation. He talked on his nickel ( I used his 800 number) like he had all the time in the world to help me. I have a very hard time believing that Don would sell anyone "junk", with or without a capital J. You trust your life with an airplane engine and I am glad that there are people like Don out there who can be trusted with such a responsibility. I think that Don is missing a big group of customers by only advertising that he specializes in Lancairs, Glassairs, and Falcos. There are more RV's being built than all of those planes combined. I think that as RV'ers who can't afford a new engine learn more about him, that may change and he will specialize in RV's, where the real action is. You can take it from me that you will get exactly what you pay for when you buy from Don. I did and I don't mind helping spread the word about his reputation. He is a good person to deal with. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Diamond Point Airport Crash of homebuilt
The local paper in Sequim, Washington reported that a homebuilt plane crashed just after takeoff from Diamond Point Airport. Does anyone have any details as to what kind of plane it was? It wasn't an RV, because it was only capable of 90 MPH. Thanks, Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Tim Bronson <70773.2700(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RV Accident Data: NTSB + Analysis (LONG)
"....So I went to the NTSB archives....." DJ: Thanks for presenting your accident analysis to the list. I, for one, found it interesting and worthwhile reading. I appreciate your efforts and thank you for sharing it with us. Tim Bronson Pittsburgh, PA RV-8 Wanna Build ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: James Clark
Does anyone know the new e-mail address of James Clark of Columbia, SC? I sent an e-mail to him but it was returned as undeliverable. Thanks, Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Electronic Ignition
I purchased with my RV Fuselage/finish kits the Lightening speed unit. I figured if Van's offered it was about as good a price I could get anywhere, observing Van's apparent policy to get us the most for the least. Which shows me that the best can be miss led. Not that the LSE product is not good one. I have personally only heard good performance gains. But the price has turned out to be .....well.! Don't miss understand me I'm not blaming any one but myself for my poor buy. It always hurts a little when you think you doing such a great job of shopping, when bam! While at Van's the other day I was talking to Ken Scott and he pointed out that LSE ignition is $300. less than he and I paid. To boot is an easier installation he says. Ken also said that they have heard some good reports on Imperial or Emperial's (?) electronic ignition and it was priced in the area of $400. per system. This just food for thought. On the subject of ignition, there was a mention of auto plugs and ignition wires sometime back. Has anyone used these with electronic ignition? What was used or where could I get information on this? I see Avery's have adapter for the plugs. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a@italy-c.it.earthlink.net>
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Slider canopy/rollbar gap
Listers, When I close the canopy latch on my -6 slider there's a gap of about 1/4" between the roll bar and the front bow of the canopy frame. There's so much slop that the spring on the handle wants to pull the handle open. Have others had a similar gap? Has anybody found a good seal for this gap? Thanks, Tim --------------------- Tim Lewis RV-6AQ #60023 San Antonio TX timrv6a(at)earthlink.net ----------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
> >>Does anyone have somewhere I could access a definitive chart or page on Pop >>Rivets ? I can't seem to find any indepth information on them. > >Denny: > >I have been looking for a response to your query. Did anyone answer direct >or did you just draw a blank? >John Top #5372 Hi John, Yes, I have been watching for an answer. But I decided that it was one of those question that no one knew. I asked at Van's and they gave me a kind of ruff hand written description of what they used. They, however, didn't seem to have any more infomation. I would like to be able to identify and have info on strengths etc. denny h. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic Squeezer
> >3) Never use air tool oil in the tool. Oil will wash out the grease and >ruin leather piston. > Hey, Thank you for that information on the tool. But if that is true about not using Pneumatic tool oil that took the starch out of my day. I have been using it since I bought it....ow denny h. Lebanon, OR ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: RV-9
Van's brother, his wife and another couple showed up for our Saturday breakfast Albany, OR airport resturant. We bombarded him with questions. He seem oblivious of any project, however Gerry's wife commented to him that Dick had said something at S & F. Gerry just smiled and said "oh he did". They did say the performance of the new RV-8 with O-320 was the same as the RV-4 so far. However they don't have the wheel pants on yet. They had a batch of pictures of it they passed around. Nice looking, but needs wheel pants bad. We tried to get some information to share, but that's it. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage Lebanon, OR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net (Chris Brooks)
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing: rib stiffeners at 73.5
Joe, don't use the 14 footers. There should be plenty of angle there for the bellcrank supports. If you haven't got your fuselage kit yet it will come with a prepunched firewall, meaning that all of the firewall angle that came with the wing kit will be surplus. Chris Brooks BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Brian & Sharon Eckstein <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Wing: rib stiffeners at 73.5
Joe Larson wrote: > > > Okay, I'm stumped. I'm building a 6A. The rib at station 73.5 is > to be modified with 3 stiffeners, according to the plans. Two of > them -- running fore and aft near the fore end of the rib -- are to > be 1/8 aluminum angle. The 3rd -- running top to bottom and just > aft of the first two -- is shown to be .063 AA. > > The problem is -- I can't find any 1/8 angle in the kit. Okay -- I > can -- there's two 14-footers and two 10'10"-ers, but the pick list says > these are part of the fuselage. Specifically -- the longeron angles > and "aluminum angle 4 firewall". I've looked through all my supplies, > then grabbed the pick list. > > So what's the deal? > > Also, after cutting all the stiffeners for the wing ribs so far, I still > have 5 of the 12-foot AA6-063 angle. 4 of these are listed as belonging > to the fuselage. I'm assuming I can keep cutting off the 5th one. But > I'm wondering if I'm going to use a lot more of it. Comments? > > -Joe > > -- > Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-551-1072 > 14190 47th Ave N. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg > Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot.There is a note that came with the wing kit that states that you should not cut the 14'2" pieces, they are longerons. "The 3/4 x 3/4 x .125 angle required for wing construction is cut from the shorter angle pieces provided." I read that to be the 10'10" pieces. Brian ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net (Chris Brooks)
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
There is a discription of the pop rivets sent in the kit in the back of Vans Accessories Catalog. Chris Brooks BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: STANAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9
I was at the RV dinner at the sun & fun and all VAN said was later the RV9 WAS COMING. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: Vibration problem at 165mph
Louis, Ive seen this also. Another posibility is the seal at the wing root fairing. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PhilipR920(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 1997
Subject: Re: insurance
Try AVEMCO. I got full coverage on my 6AQ and new engine with a $200 deductable for $ 360/year. Phil Rogerson N936PR res ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
> >There is a discription of the pop rivets sent in the kit in the back of >Vans Accessories Catalog. > >Chris Brooks > BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net > Thanks Chris, I've seen that one. The one Van's gave me was slightly better one than that one, as far as identification is concerned and either of those are adequate for getting thru the RV-6. What I was looking for was same type as is available for rivets, like in the EAA builders manual/Pazmany books & etc. What the code indicated to reasonably use them in proper application. If there is such a thing. denny.h RV-6 Fuselage Lebanon, OR ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: John Ammeter <ammeterj(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Diamond Point Airport Crash of homebuilt
I just talked to my brother who talked to someone that heard about the accident. Now that I've established my credibility----- I was told it was some kind of ultra light. The winds were gusting up to 70 mph. Yes, I said seventy miles per hour. The pilot was urged by several people, including a pilot that had just landed, to stay on the ground. His answer was that these winds would "provide a good test for his plane". He apparently made it off the ground but decided to land back at the airport because of the winds. He lost control of the plane and crashed into a house. Luckily, no one was home. The pilot died a few hours later at the hospital. He was a local dentist (or doctor); not what you would consider a dummy. I've always been told by my ultralight friends that you stayed on the ground whenever the winds got over 12 to 15 mph. It would be comparable to one of us attempting to fly when the winds were over 140 mph; hey, my limit as far as a crosswind is around 15 to 20 mph. When the winds are over 30, even down the runway, I stay on the ground unless the destination is definately better. John > >The local paper in Sequim, Washington reported that a homebuilt plane crashed >just after takeoff from Diamond Point Airport. Does anyone have any details >as to what kind of plane it was? It wasn't an RV, because it was only >capable of 90 MPH. > >Thanks, > >Jim Cone >jamescone(at)aol.com > > John Ammeter ammeterj(at)seanet.com 3233 NE 95th St Seattle WA, 98115 USA 206-525-5445 RV-6 N16JA First flight August 1990 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel H. Morris III" <Morristec(at)icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
Date: Apr 12, 1997
The name of the company is AVEX and I think that they are in NJ. If I can find it, I have a catalog with the dimensional specs and strength data at work. Give me a couple of days to dig it up. Dan Morris Morristec(at)icdc.com > >Does anyone have somewhere I could access a definitive chart or page on Pop > >Rivets ? I can't seem to find any indepth information on them. > > Denny: > > I have been looking for a response to your query. Did anyone answer direct > or did you just draw a blank? > > > John Top #5372 > (619) 549-3556 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: Rhett Westerman <rhettw(at)premier.net>
Subject: insurance
I am using Avemco to insure my project (a GlaStar). A few weeks ago I was transporting the plane from the garage to the airport and the unthinkable occured. The GlaStar has folding wings. Well, one wing came infolded and took down a couple of street signs at 50 MPH. There was damage to the wing, aileron, and flap. So far the claims process has gone well. I am waiting on the final approval to have the plane fixed. I should receive it Monday. I would highly recommend having the plane insured before any transport. I never thought something like this would occur. This was to be just a 35 mile trip. -- ------------------------------------- Rhett Westerman Baton Rouge, Louisiana rhettw(at)premier.net WWW Home Page http://www.premier.net/~rhettw/index.htm ------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: "J.W. Benedict" <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu>
Subject: Re: RV-9)
For a few RV-8 #2 photos (published April 1), try: http://www.vansaircraft.com/models/rv8-2.htm > They did say the performance of the new RV-8 with O-320 was the same as the > RV-4 so far. However they don't have the wheel pants on yet. They had a > batch of pictures of it they passed around. Nice looking, but needs wheel > pants bad. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | name://Jeremy Benedict | PP-ASEL (1994) [R/E: TD,HP] | |email://jbenedic(at)uofport.edu | Logged: RV-4,-6,-6A,-6B,-6T | | http://wally.uofport.edu/~jbenedic| Cessna 150, 182 | |voice://503.240.1524 | TT: 277.8 hrs TT-RV: 163.1 hrs | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Dave Barnhart <barnhart(at)a.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Exterior paint
Ed: IMHO, if you can paint a car, you can paint a plane. Since you are painting bare aluminum, I'd probably be willing to skip the alumiprep (etcher). I would probably just scotchbrite the whole thing. Depending upon where you live, it may be a VERY bad idea to skip the alodyne. Alodyne prevents filliform corrosion (corrosion that forms underneath the paint). In areas with > 65% humidity or heavy industrial pollution, filliform corrosion is a real hazard. After that its just prime and paint. One additional thing to think about: Because the aluminum and fiberglass are so different with different 'hold out' characteristics, you may want to consider soe sort of sealer or primer-sealer. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart No, I've never painted a plane either. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bcg007(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
I'm in the process of locating and drilling the wing rib reinforcing angl= es to the spar prior to fitting and drilling the ribs to them. I=92ve got t= he pre-punched RV6 wing kit. Van is very explicit about the need to positio= n the angles (which in turn position the ribs in line with the pansy-pre-drilled holes :) ) in exactly the locations shown in plans, specifically drawing SK32A. So I=92ve done that-- the angles are EXACTLY= in the positions indicated. My question is this--after drilling, the bolt holes for two of the angles (in position 7 and 8, counting from the root)= are only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle. It feels like this is a problem. I know 2D is required for riveting, is it also for bolting? I=92= ve checked and re-checked the measurements, but perhaps I just didn=92t do t= his right. Anybody else experience this? What=92d you do? Jon Scholl RV6 Wings bcg007(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bcg007(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: Avery pneumatic squeezer--adjusting the stroke
Sometimes even the thin washers don't give me a fine enough "adjust" in t= he stroke. I pulled out an old automotive feeler GAUGE (that's a cheap shot= for GV :) ) and cut small squares of the sizes I wanted, drilled to fit the shaft of the set and have a set of shims. By recording the aluminum size= s to be joined (there aren=92t that many combinations that we use), which sets= and shims used, I have a quick reference chart for setting up my squeezer. N= ot elegant, but not costly either! Jon Scholl RV6 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 1997
From: John Top <jjtop(at)cts.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic Squeezer
>>>3) Never use air tool oil in the tool. Oil will wash out the grease and >>ruin leather piston. >> > Hey, Thank you for that information on the tool. But if that is true about >not using Pneumatic tool oil that took the starch out of my day. I have >been using it since I bought it....ow Denny: The squeezer is lubricated with Lithium greese. You will also wash it out if you oil it. I made the same mistake. You might want to disassemble, clean and re-lube yours John Top #5372 (619) 549-3556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Finn Lassen <finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2
Bolts are kept stationary. Only nut is moved (rotated). Torgue is resistance of nut against washer (or nut thread against bolt thread). Robert Fritz wrote: > > > Message text written by John Walsh > >Hi Bob, > > Here's the part I can't figure out. Since our Wing spar bolts are a light = > press fit, what is the significance of torqueing them? In other words, a = > "normal" assembly has a clearance hole around the bolt and the torque appli= > ed uses the nut/bolt to squeeze the parts together. If the bolt is press f= > it in the hole, then isn't the torque being resisted by the friction betwee= > n the bolt and the hole? I have never come across a press fit bolt before = > and I don't understand how that works. =20 > > John > > < > > I'm gonna guess here so how 'bout you Home Wingers near Van's verify this. > > Alignment is critical. If you've a group of precisely placed holes that use > large-clearance bolts you've defeated the purpose of the precision. However, if > the bolts are a smooth-sliding fit you do, indeed, maintain the > alignment------even if the frictional component (via loose bolts) is inadequate > to maintain the alignment. > > I would reeeeeeeeeaally like to hear from Van's on this. > > cheers > > Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Elon <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Flying in France
> Nigel Marshall > Chevreuse, France > RV-4 (# 4062) Skinning first wing (with flush rivets) > nmarshal(at)auto.rockwell.com Hello Nigel: I live in Fremont California (about 72 Kilometers north east of San Fancisco). Where is Chevreuse? I have an uncle in Antibes that I have visited in the past but I can't find a reference to your city in my Microsoft Reference CD ROM. Also what is the price of aviation gas in France? A couple of years ago I paid about 5.3 franks per liter for my rental car. Aviation fuel must be quite expensive. I plan on visiting the south of France in the summer of 98 and may consider renting a plane to do some sightseeing if that is allowed. I will have to study the regulations since I understand that quite a bit of flying in Europe is under IFR and I am only VFR. I would like to find a source that will provide flight information and planning before I leave. If you have a reference, your help would be greatly appreciated. I wish you much success on your RV project. Elon Ormsby elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Diamond Point Airport Crash of homebuilt
aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > The local paper in Sequim, Washington reported that a homebuilt plane crashed > just after takeoff from Diamond Point Airport. Does anyone have any details > as to what kind of plane it was? It wasn't an RV, because it was only > capable of 90 MPH. > > Thanks, > > Jim Cone > jamescone(at)aol.com James asked for the information on the Diamond point accident I could have sent this to him privately because it is not RV related but I thought I would post it here just to remind each of us not to do something stupid and get ourselves hurt or killed in our airplanes. BTW a VP1 is a Volkswagen powered airplane called a Volksplane. The Ntsb report said winds were reported gusting to forty mph, but wind gusts in some areas actually reached 60-70 that day. Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS NTSB Identification: SEA97LA079 Accident occurred MAR-30-97 at GARDINER, WA Aircraft: ROSE VP-1, registration: N89PR Injuries: 1 Fatal. On March 30, 1997, approximately 1245 Pacific standard time, a homebuilt Rose VP-1, N89PR, being flown by a private pilot, was destroyed during a collision with an unoccupied house following a loss of control during climbout. The aircraft crashed near Gardiner, Washington. The pilot was airlifted to Harborview Hospital in Seattle with serious injuries and subsequently expired. Visual, windy meteorological conditions existed at the time and no flight plan had been filed. The flight, which was personal, was to have been operated under 14CFR91. The destination of the flight was not known. Witnesses at the departure airport (Diamond Point) reported advising the pilot against attempting to takeoff in the strong, gusty winds. They observed the aircraft takeoff on runway 10, become airborne and then execute a descending left turn out of view to impact. Winds at Port Angeles, Washington, 23 nautical miles west, were reported at 160 degrees magnetic, 5 knots gusting to 10 knots, and station pressure "rising rapidly." One witness reported the winds gusting 35 to 40 miles per hour. Index for Mar 1997 | Index of Months ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bennett(at)healey.com.au
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Modifying Aviation Products' tailwheel
It looks to me as though the Aviation Products tailwheel could be modified to lower the fuselage to the Van's configuration. This would be done by cutting the fork from the swivel boss and re-welding it with the fork horizontal. Has anybody done this? Does anyone have an email address for Aviation Products? It's not in the Yeller Pages. I'd like to get their comment before hacksawing into that lovely weldment. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 building sliding canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: David Peck <dpeck(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RV4 Electric Elevator Trim Horn
I have been lurking for some time and really admire how you RV builders help each other. I work in aircraft maintenance for an airline, and am a Technical Counsellor for the Sport Aircraft Association of Australia, and have helped build an empennage on a RV6. A RV4 builder recently asked me the dimension of the electric elevator trim horn ( he has built a manual one but is worried that the amount of travel will be different ), and the dimension that it is in from the end of the trim tab. I could not find it on his (old) set of plans. Any help appreciated. Thanks David Peck, SAAA TC & RV-6A dreamer dpeck(at)ozemail.com.au Perth, Western Australia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic Squeezer
> >The squeezer is lubricated with Lithium greese. You will also wash it out >if you oil it. I made the same mistake. You might want to disassemble, >clean and re-lube yours > >John Top #5372 I have not been very happy with it when it came 1/8" rivets, I hope that is the problem. Thanks again, John. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage Lebanon, OR ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
Hi all, As to ID of rivets, I've been through my engineering library and found.....TA DA!........ ..............nothing, zip, nada...........unless you like the fact that they've been made to fill 1/2" diameter holes and a nice cross-sectional drawing. Maybe I'll try a letter to the manufacturer.......if I can find out who that is. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: insurance
Message text written by INTERNET:PhilipR920(at)aol.com > Try AVEMCO. I got full coverage on my 6AQ and new engine with a $200 deductable for $ 360/year. Phil Rogerson N936PR res < Hi Phil, Did that include loss of the tools? cheers Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: Bolting and riveting #2
<< Do you assume this to be the case or are you speaking from first-hand knowledge that Van did, indeed, design it thus? Not a flame.....just an important clarification. Bob Fritz >> Hello Bob and all, It's called reverse engineering. If the two options you mentioned are not the same, then it could indicate the possibility of a problem with the design. Just my opinion, and not a flame. Jim Ayers LOM M332A engine Ivoprop VP Prop Sportcraft Antennas RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder LesDrag(at)aol.com Thousand Oaks, California USA http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/rv3.htm http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/Ivoprop.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
<< after drilling, the bolt holes for two of the angles (in position 7 a= nd 8, counting from the root) are only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle. It fe= els like this is a problem. I know 2D is required for riveting, is it also for bolting? I=92ve checked and re-checked the measurements, but perhaps I just didn=92t do = this right. Anybody else experience this? What=92d you do? >> Jon- In the finest Van's tradition, I just made it work, but then I didn't hav= e the prepunched kit so I might have been able to accomodate the cascade ef= fect a little easier (by fudging things around a little). I think this is bec= ause of the way Phlogiston has located the holes in the spars, but I can't be absolutely sure without completely calculating the theoretical hole posit= ions and comparing with the prebuilt spar. If you built your own spars to pri= nt, it is possible that there is some small dimensional error in the plans. I found that using the NAS679-A3 nuts with the internal wrenching feature facilitated attachment. The internal wrench is available from Kaynar Mfg (see Yeller Pages). Further, spot facing may be valuable in that area to gain the relief from the corner radius required. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: Modifying Aviation Products' tailwheel
<< Does anyone have an email address for Aviation Products? It's not in the Yeller Pages. I'd like to get their comment before hacksawing into that lovely weldment. >> Peter- Aviation Products' phone number IS in the current revision of the Yeller Pages that can be reached at http://www.sound.net/~hartmann/yelrpage.htm. Incidentally, the Yeller Pages located at Mike Hartmann's site is now a link from Van's Homepage, Thanks Bill. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Mike Weller <clue(at)sig.use.it>
Subject: pneumatic squeezer - summary
Many thanks for the replies that I've gotten on the use of pneumatic squeezers. I'd like to summararize the responses that I've from this group and private E-mail. There were a couple of surprises. I'll add my own comments to some of the advice I received. For brevity, I'll paraphrase most, rather than quote directly. First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Lauritsen of Cleaveland Aircraft Tools for his advice to the group. > The pneumatic squeezer is a terriffic tool but does require some > understanding of its set up. > A few pointers: > 3) Never use air tool oil in the tool. Oil will wash out the grease and ruin leather piston. Others agreed. The tool is packed with Lithium grease which will be washed away with air tool oil. I would not have known that. In fact, I would have used it the same way as I do with my rivet gun. I always put a few drops of oil in the air inlet before operating the thing. > 6) For Riveting: Use the 1/8" long flat set or 1/8" long cupped set in > the top of the yoke. > Choose the correct length of flat set to correspond to the length of > rivet being squeezed. > Long rivet - Short flat set Short rivet - Long flat set We use > the set of 8 ranging from 1/8" to 1/2" long. > Hardened shim washers are added under the flat set in the ram for fine > adjustment. > DJ Lauritsen > Cleaveland Aircraft Tool I've got to make it clear right now that I have no connection whatsoever with Cleaveland. That said, I (and the group) have noted that there is now an adjustable ram that works like the one I was using with the hand squeezer. And it's available in the 1997 Avery catalog (which they haven't sent me). For $49. From what I can tell, I need to buy some longer sets for the small rivets that I'm smashing. And shim them with 3/8" washers for precision. Guess where I'm going to buy them? There was also a suggestion to get a modification from OSH that I could use on the ram that came with the hand squeezer. I'm not sure that I want to do that, since the hand squeezer is still used for dimpling and other things. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Again, thanks to all for your help. And I want to make it clear that I don't want to sound like I'm doing any Avery bashing. I've had nothing but good experiences doing business with them. It is refreshing, though, to see the responses that my original posting generated. Mike Weller RV-8 (under construction) midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com (preferred) or mike.weller(at)msfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pop rivet I.D.
Daniel H. Morris III wrote: > >> The name of the company is AVEX and I think that they are in NJ. If I can > find it, I have a catalog with the dimensional specs and strength data at > work. Give me a couple of days to dig it up. > >I attended Chris Heinz's seminar last Thursday at Sun n Fun. The topic was rivets and riveting as pertains to his planes. He stated that AVEX rivets are produced in 4 or 5 places including the U.S.A. He stated that they were originally made in England with the intent to have them certified. Chris said that only the English made AVEX rivets were made to aircraft standards. He advised using ONLY English made AVEX rivets. He also explained the strength characteristics of these rivets. He would be a good source of information on this subject. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills)
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
Jon, I considered the same thing when installing my bellcrank mounts. In spite of assurances of my local EAA tech counseler (who is also an RV-4 flyer), I just didnt feel comfortable with the edge margin to this hole. I went down to the local metal supply and bought some 2 X 2 X .125 angle and remade these pieces, trimming away any excess that appeared to be unnecessary. All of my reference materials specify a 2D edge margin and I intend to stick to that. It may be overkill, but its my airplane and I have to feel comfortable with its contruction. Mike Wills RV-4 (wings) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ve7fp(at)jetstream.net (Ken Hoshowski)
Subject: Re: Vibration problem at 165mph
Date: Apr 13, 1997
---------- > From: aol.com!RV4131rb(at)matronics.com > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Vibration problem at 165mph > Date: Saturday, April 12, 1997 5:46 PM > > > Louis, > Ive seen this also. Another posibility is the seal at the wing root fairing. Louis, Do you have an antenna on the belly? particularily one of those that are the S/S wire type that have the porcelain insulator? You might consider removing any com or nav antennas one at a time (process of elimination) to see if it might be the culprit. Good Luck Ken ve7fp(at)jetstream.net RV6 C-FKEH 160 HP/C/S Editor Western Canada RVator First Flight Sept. 8/94 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Bolt Preload
Date: Apr 13, 1997
I obtained the following summary from: http://www.srl.gatech.edu/education/ME3110/design-reports/RSVP/DR4/catalog/f ast_bas.html#top "Bolted joints use the bolt to "squeeze" the parts together, which should be fairly apparent. What may not be apparent is that a properly assembled bolted joint actually stretches the bolt as it clamps the members between it, resulting in a compressive stress in the members and a tensile stress in the bolt. This is called the bolt preload , and is desirable. When an external load tries to separate the members, a tensile stress is exerted on the members and on the bolt the bolt takes some of the load and the members take the rest, The preload, however, means that any tensile load on them must first overcome the compressive stress in the members before it can begin to try to separate the members from each other, Bolted joints are normally designed so that the maximum load that is expected to be supported by the members is smaller than the preload, so that members will never be separated in operation of the joint." Be careful when tightening AN3 bolts. They look pretty massive due to the large hex head and oversized nylon stop nut, but they are only 10-32. Look at an ordinary 10-32 screw before you lay into them. I was shocked at how little force is required even on a short wrench to achieve 25 inch-lbs of torque. Adding in the stop nut friction produces a higher torque wrench setting, but they are still very easy to overtorque. Dennis 6A fuselage in jug ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com (Stephen Paul Johnson)
Subject: RV-9 Guess
Hi all, I just thought I'd give you my fearless prediction. I bet it's an improved RV-6, just like the RV-8 is an improved RV-4. A tandem RV-8 if you will, using all of the improvements in the RV-8 wing construction along with a pre-punched fuselage, just like the RV-8. We shall see. Steve Johnson RV-8 #80121 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry H. Prado" <jerryprado(at)wa.net>
Subject: 6A Tail / R-406-07-08 help
Date: Apr 13, 1997
I am trying to determine what to do with a pre-built tail kit that has some problems. I could use some advice on this item: R406 / 407 /408 were mounted with only four rivets not the six specified in the plans. The two rivets on the vertical center of the nut plates were omitted. Additionally, the skin cut-outs for the threaded rods are off center. I could probably get one 'structural pop rivet' in each plate but getting two in would require me to cut a larger opening. Any help would be appreciated. Jerry Prado rv6a ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PFPA(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: NM AIRPARK HOME FOR RENT OR SALE
AIRPARK HOME FOR RENT OR SALE MID VALLEY AIRPARK, LOS LUNAS, NM (20 miles south of Albuquerque) Your AIRPLANE and WORKSHOP right behind the kitchen door RENT RENT TO OWN BUY OWNER FINANCE Brick & Stucco ranch style home in excellent, safe area. 3 large bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, living room, family room, large open kitchen and utility room. New Berber carpet, tile, and fesh paint. Skylights in house and hangar. Includes all appliances with a built in vacuum, stove, refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave, washer/dryer. Private well and septic. Gas forced air heat and hot water. Ground based evaporative cooling. Pot belly wood stove. Energy efficient, southern exposure. Exterior feastures a paved driveway to the hangar and a gravel curved drive to the front entrance. Flowers and grass highlight the front and low maintenance grass covers the back which is completely fenced. Attached hangar is 40' wide by 34' deep. Finshed in sheet rock and fully insulated including the ceiling and 2 sky lights. Includes dual steel roll up doors, work tables, lots of shelving and flourescent lighting. The price is $1,000 per month for rental (Pets Okay). $158,000 for purchase. Andy & Nancy Gold 505 865-3466 pfpa(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
> I bet it's an improved RV-6, just like the RV-8 is an improved RV-4. >Steve Johnson >RV-8 #80121 > Hey, Hey, Hey, You 8 guys are walking on thin ice talking about the RV-"Fat Albert" 8 being an improved 4. Don't you know the 4 is a classic and can't be improved.;) Now go back in your shops and get to work, we 4 guys are going FLYING.:) Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying since 8-94 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9
<< > Well, Van let the RV-9 out of the bag at the RV banquet last night. > He said there was an NEW RV in the works, but when asked what it was > going to be, he declined to answer. > So gang, what do you think it will be. >> I was at S-N-F, and I saw Van eyeing the Bud blimp while rubbing his chin. Hmmmm. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: "Patrick E. Kelley" <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
aol.com!Bcg007(at)matronics.com wrote: > > My question is this--after drilling, the bolt > holes for two of the angles (in position 7 and 8, counting from the root) are > only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle. > I know 2D is required for riveting, is it also for bolting? > Anybody else experience this? Whatd you do? > Jon, you've answered your own question. As Van's indicated, the critical concern is to match the pre-punched skins. If you check the positioning with the skins by clamping them in place then you will be Ok. Once the ribs are in position, you will drill the ribs to the spar web for rivets. These rivets will be the proper edge distance and, along with the bolts, will be more than sufficient to secure the ribs. Mr. Wills' approach is indeed overkill but go ahead and do it if you feel better about it; the difference in strength would not be much, but neither would the weight penalty. I only had slight variation (lucky, I guess) so I ignored it and pressed on. PatK - RV-6A - Flap at paint shop; fussing with aileron linkage and access plate... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: "Patrick E. Kelley" <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
Mike Wills wrote: > > It may be overkill, but its my airplane and I have to feel > comfortable with its contruction. > You are absolutely correct, but I hope you stop and consider the cumulative effect of such beefing up in terms of weight. I'm a fine one to talk with my heated pitot installation and intention of a full IFR panel, but I am compensating by trimming wherever safe and possible. Aside from performance considerations, a heavy plane is arguably less safe than a light one. PatK - RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: "Patrick E. Kelley" <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Wing: rib stiffeners at 73.5
Joe Larson wrote: > > The problem is -- I can't find any 1/8 angle in the kit. Okay -- I > can -- there's two 14-footers and two 10'10"-ers, but the pick list says > these are part of the fuselage. Specifically -- the longeron angles > and "aluminum angle 4 firewall". I've looked through all my supplies, > then grabbed the pick list. > Joe, my pick list shows that the fuse longeron kit consists of the four parts you mention above and four .063 x 12' angles. In between, it calls out one AA6-125x3/4x3/4x82 angle. This is the piece I used for my wing kit. On reflection, it might have been a good idea to contact Van's about this, but I can get this material easily if I run out. As for the .063 material, I have found that Van's is generous with this material, probably because it is easy to screw up a part or fail to properly plan to minimize wastage. Hope this helps. PatK - RV-6A - Betting the -9 will be a helicopter (how's that for a black horse?)! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com (Stephen Paul Johnson)
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
The dummy wrote: > A tandem RV-8 >if you will, using all of the improvements in the RV-8 wing >construction along with a pre-punched fuselage, just like the RV-8. Obviously, I meant side by side version of the RV-8. Don't you just love the Internet, where you can make a stupid mistake and 700 people are instantly aware of it :-) Steve Johnson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: FLYBUDDY LORAN FOR SALE
Flybuddy Loran by IIMorrow for sale. Includes tray, but no antenna or manual. Was working when removed. Has data base, and looks like new. Will sell for $295. Will send UPS c.o.d. if desired. Fax 503-838-3834, or E-Mail MAlexan533 @ aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Wing reinforcing angles
Date: Apr 13, 1997
> > I'm in the process of locating and drilling the wing rib reinforcing > angles to the spar prior to fitting and drilling the ribs to them. > ... > So I've done that-- the angles are EXACTLY in the positions indicated. > ... > only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle. When I did mine, checked everything would be pretty darn close, then I drilled the holes dead center on the angles. Once I clecoed the ribs in place, I checked everything against the pre-punched skins. (I figured I could flip the angles around and re-drill any through the as-yet-untouched side if I needed to.) I have a couple of locations that aren't dead-on, but I can see my red centerline marks on the flanges of all ribs through the holes. In other words -- drilling to dead center of the angles worked out pretty good for me. What I would do in this case -- I would do something similar. That is, check the fit against the prepunched skins. Then I would see what I could do to fudge the angles that don't have clearance. But if you were to check with Van's, I'm sure they would tell you there's sufficient clearance as long as it's only a couple of the angles. -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-551-1072 14190 47th Ave N. http://www.wavefront.com/~showpg Plymouth, Mn 55446 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PhilipR920(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: insurance
Bob, No coverage of tools. Just the kit and engine. Of course damage during transportation was included. Take care, Phil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Darwin Esh <103126.3212(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Flaps
Have a problem getting the flap hinge pin in with the wings already mounted. The angle of incidence checks OK Do the flaps need to be in place before the wings go on ? Dar RV-6qb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mgilbert(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: EAA Tech Counselor
Having inventoried my empennage kit, I'm ready to start; however, I see that the first tool I will need, a cleko, is one of my back ordered tools. While I'm waiting, I'd like to know when I should start consulting with an EAA technical counselor. And, when the time comes, is there an EAA technical counselor who reads the list and resides in Sacramento, CA. Thanks for the assistance. Mark Gilbert mgilbert(at)ix.netcom.com RV6A empennage and out of annual PA28R-180 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-9
From: cecilth(at)juno.com (Cecil T Hatfield)
Date: Apr 13, 1997
RV-9? I'll bet Van has had more interest directed to the 4 place, so we can take the kids along with the wife. So my bet is its a 4 place (A double side by side if you will). Van, as much as anything else, is a very practical man. He will go where the (money) most interest is. Cecil Hatfield << > Well, Van let the RV-9 out of the bag at the RV banquet last night. > He said there was an NEW RV in the works, but when asked what it was > going to be, he declined to answer. > So gang, what do you think it will be. >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: STANAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
I was at the sun & fun dinner and Van said they was working on a pre punch fuselage RV6A now . can't wait to get one ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: RV-9
How about a replacement for the RV-3, only beefier like the One Design? Someone at our RV breakfast said that it might be a streched RV-3. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
ps: Thanks to all those who responded about the insurance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: rv-9
I saw a -9 overfly the area the other night. It was hard to miss with the afterburners in full glow! Did anyone see the skywriting planes in formation at various times at sun-n-fun? Do they use a computerized system of some type to write with? The writing of the 5 or 6 planes was too well synchronized for the pilots to be just eyeballing it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 13, 1997
Subject: Engine Stuff for Sale
I have the following items for sale which have come off my O-320 engine: 1) BENDIX Mag. with impulse Coupler $ make offer - 75 hours since overhaul 2) Prestolite Starter $ make offer - 0 hours since overhaul Items being sold to help off-set the cost of a Jeff Rose Electronic Ignition. E-mail me direct at RV6junkie(at)aol.com Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 1997
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: EAA Tech Counselor
You wrote: > > >Having inventoried my empennage kit, I'm ready to start; however, I see that the first tool I will need, a cleko, is one of my back ordered tools. > >While I'm waiting, I'd like to know when I should start consulting with an EAA technical counselor. And, when the time comes, is there an EAA technical counselor who reads the list and resides in Sacramento, CA. > >Thanks for the assistance. > >Mark Gilbert >mgilbert(at)ix.netcom.com >RV6A empennage and out of annual PA28R-180 > > Hi Mark, If you have no experience working with aluminum, I would recommend that you look for a workshop in your area or noze around with a local EAA Chapter and see if you can go look at work that an experienced aluminum person is doing. Otherewise, I recommend that you get some scrap aluminum and drill, dimple and set about 20 to 40 or so rivets before beginning. Set some with the rivet gun and a bucking bar and some with a squeezer. When you begin, I think you should get some experienced person to look at your work (not at all necessarily a tech counselor) very early on -- at least by the time you have the horiz stab main spar done. That way, if you are screwing up something (and most of us do), you can catch it while it is still cheap to do it over. Then I would suggest you find that tech counselor (if you haven't done so before) and get him or her in when you are about to put the skin on the horiz stab. You need to get it progress inspected a few times (3 I think) and have the tech counselor send the write-ups in to the EAA if you want to get AVEMCO day 1 flight insurance, for example. Hope this helps a little. Best regards, Bill Costello -- Bill Costello | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com | Building RV-6 | Reserv N97WC Want an extra hour and a half of energy per day with Super Blue Green products? Email for info or call 800-325-7544 Chicago ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
From: less_drag(at)juno.com (JAMES E AYERS)
Date: Apr 14, 1997
>Hey, Hey, Hey, >You 8 guys are walking on thin ice talking about the RV-"Fat Albert" 8 >being >an improved 4. Don't you know the 4 is a classic and can't be >improved.;) > >Now go back in your shops and get to work, we 4 guys are going >FLYING.:) > >Regards: >Rusty Gossard >N47RG RV-4 Flying since 8-94 > > ah so, but you make one mistake. You count one too high. check six Jim Ayers LOM M332A engine Ivoprop VP Prop Sportcraft Antennas RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder Less_Drag(at)juno.com Thousand Oaks, California USA http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/rv3.htm http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/Ivoprop.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Elon <elon.o(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Laywers (chat)
Since we had to endure the defense of the legal profession last week read on. . . It seams a questionably motivated father along with a respected CFI got caught up in a pseudo record-breaking, media-frenzy, that distorted THEIR good judgment and caused them to take-off VFR, into impending IMC, severe wind shear, and in an aircraft they themselves OVERLOADED. As you remember the crash killed them and 7 year old Jessica Dubroff. For the crowning touch the mother held a 1 yr memorial service last week at the grave site. She announced that she had to think of her other children -so even though she didnt want to do it she was suing Cessna for the accident!! (The NTSB investigation ruled the cause as overload and weather). What we have is a very bizarre person, unable to earn a living, and now with her ex husband dead, and no alimony to collect, she is using her dead daughter to generate life-long income for herself by suing Cessna (and her ex-husbands estate). Of course, this obscene perversion of responsibility is being developed, promoted and litigated by her LAYWER. Please just build your RV and fly it - dont tell us how noble your profession is. Elon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: George McNutt <72714.2663(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RV-9 TRIVIA
RV-9 SPECULATION Van's comments at Sun & Fun did not suggest that the next design would be a "RV-9", there was only a suggestion that a new design was in the works. A recent article about Jabiru Aero Engines in a Australian aviation journal gave a interesting insight into Vans Aircraft, Inc. that many list members may not have seen. The article gave development information on the new Jabiru Aero Engines four cylinder engine which develops 104 HP for takeoff and has a max continuous rating of 97 HP. Most interesting however was the statement that Van's Aircraft, Inc. has been appointed the North American distributor for the Jabiru Aero Engines and that the engine is intended for use in a small twin engine development of the RV-6A. The new mini-twin will debut in late 1998. The article went on to state that the intent is to offer a complete kit for under $50,000 USD. The kit will include two new Jabiru engines certified to JAR 22J standards and matched electrically controlled propellers (Ivoprops ?) which will ensure adequate engine out performance. Structural changes will include a redesigned tail and beefed up main spar to accommodate the engine mounts and non retracting oleo type main gear legs. Wing span will be increased by 18 inches. To increase performance and add utility as a multi-engine trainer the nose gear will retract into the forward baggage/avionics area. Officials were noncommittal on performance figures, only stating that the aircraft will be designed to JAR 13C standards and will have comparable performance to a single engine 180 HP RV-6. They did state however that a new Jabiru turbo-charged engine under development is expected to be in the same power range as the Rotax 914, preliminary studies estimate a cruise speed of 227 Kts at 23,000 feet with the turbocharged engines. Based on a estimated empty weight of 1350 lb. and gross of 2200 lb the mini-twin has a better power to weight ratio than a many older twins. It is expected that single engine climb performance will be anemic but will exceed JAR minimum requirements by 200 FPM. Officials estimate world wide sales at 400 aircraft. They are quick to point out that the ill fated Wing Derringer had comparable engines and prices with larger four seat twins, but the mini-twin will be unique in the world marketplace. The mini-twin will appeal to those wanting the security of an affordable twin with certified engines and low operating cost. A secondary training market in third world nations is expected to develop when the higher performance turbo twin is introduced and generate another 200 sales. One African Nation's Air Force has expressed interest. The above is all fictition but describes an aircraft that I might like to own. I had planned to put this message on the list on April 1st, but thought better of it, however with all the speculation about the RV-9 here it is. George McNutt, HS, RV-6A (Single eng) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Date: Apr 14, 1997
>I was at the sun & fun dinner and Van said they was working on a >pre punch fuselage RV6A now . can't wait to get one Now, that really ticks me off! Ever since I started building mine, I've been just ahead of them on my orders and have yet to get anything prepunched except the firewall. In fact, when I asked about it some time ago, I was told that none was in the works. Now, you have to rub it in some more! :-) I envy you fellas who have all the nice prepunched stuff. It sure can decrease the building time. You fellas with prepunched and quick builts kits can't imagine the grief that we've gone through before you. My firewall went together so easily that it was pure pleasure to build. I wish I could say the same about the other pieces and parts. Still, it's been very interesting and maybe something I'll do again with a prepunched kit. Am I nuts, or what?! Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (fuselage being built the hard way!) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: catbird(at)taylortel.com (TTC Carroll A. Bird)
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Jim Sears wrote: > > I envy you fellas who have all the nice prepunched stuff. It sure can > decrease the building time. Jim, don't be so put out, I started my -4 two years ago and I didn't get prepunched nothing. I am very proud of the accomplishment that I have achieved. Wings done,empannage done, fuselage, all skins done. Ready to put on gear. Carroll Bird, Buffalo Gap, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: EAA Tech Counselor
Tech counselors are good resources, however there are too few of them. Best advice for you at this time is to contact as many local builders and flyers of RV's. They are very important sources of information and help. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Jim Sears wrote: > >I was at the sun & fun dinner and Van said they was working on a >pre punch fuselage RV6A now . I've been just ahead of them on my orders and have yet to get anything > prepunched except the firewall. > Jim Sears > RV-6A #22220 (fuselage being built the hard way!) > AA5A Cheetah N26276 I sure envy you guys that got the prepunched firewall.(G) -- Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Jim Sears wrote: > > >I was at the sun & fun dinner and Van said they was working on a > >pre punch fuselage RV6A now . can't wait to get one > > Now, that really ticks me off! > Ticks me off, too. I wish he'd make it an option so I don't have to put up with it. > > Am I nuts, or what?! > You're nuts. The prepunched wing skins caused as much grief as they may have cured because any errors in the underlying structure would cause a mismatch to the skins. Since my empennage was not prepunched, I can say from experience that it was much less worrisome to build the structure knowing that a slight misalignment would not cause the structure to be useless just because a skin rivet would be off the rib centerlines. This is not to put down the prepunched kit - by investing a lot of planning into my project, it has been possible to avoid mistakes. So far. And I REALLY LOVE all the prebuilt components, like the aileron hinge brackets. I just wish we had a choice on the skins. BTW, don't take the 'You're nuts' comment to heart; most of my friends think we are nuts just to build an airplane. What do they know? PatK - RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Puget Sound Newsletter
John Ameter, Hey John, while I was doing my taxes this week I came across a check to Puget Sound RVators dated June last year, and I was wondering when my first issue would be arriving. If it has taken this long to prepare, it's bound to be a dynomite issue. :-? Joel Harding ab320flyer(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Laywers (chat)
> >What we have is a very bizarre person, unable to earn a living, and now with her ex husband dead, > and no alimony to collect, she is using her dead daughter to generate life-long income for >herself by suing Cessna (and her ex-husband's estate). Of course, this obscene perversion of >responsibility is being developed, promoted and litigated by her LAYWER. > >Please just build your RV and fly it - don't tell us how noble your profession is. > >Elon > ** Definition of "Responsiblity" from modern times dictionaries: The plainiff's- It is someone else's fault and they should be sued. The law office's- I think you have a case and if properly handled we should should be able to settle out of court. denny h. :^) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Scott Malone <scottm(at)pta6000.pld.com>
Subject: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
Has anyone mounted the oil cooler, left-aft, as Orndorff did in his tapes and had the same heating problem. My engine is an O320-E2D constant speed prop. Installing engine baffling. RV6A scottm(at)pld.com Scott Malone Ulysses, Ks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9 TRIVIA
George McNutt wrote: > > > RV-9 SPECULATION > > Van's comments at Sun & Fun did not suggest that the next design would be a "RV-9", there was only a suggestion that a new design was in the works. > > > > George McNutt, HS, RV-6A (Single eng) Geoege Van did say RV-9 in his comments at the banquet, and when he did the whole room got quiet, then a low rumble, and then some guy sitting at my table asked what a RV-9 was and Van said " I'm not taking questions at this time ". By the way, I won a rivit spacing tool in the raffle which would have been great, unfortunately I'm finish with the airframe. For the first time in my life I win something and it's 3 1/2 years to late. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH Tallahassee,FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Stan Blanton <75472.372(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RMI MicroEncoder
RV Listers, For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power supply? Through an avionics master, seperate switch off of main power, always hot, or something else? Thanks in advance, Stan Blanton RV-6 75472.372(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Moore" <dmoore8(at)tuelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9
Date: Apr 14, 1997
---------- Regarding the RV-9 All of you rocket ship dreamers and scale DC-3 sky gazers: it won't be sexy at all. My money goes on a cheap trainer, 2 place, built around an O-200 using the remains of one yellow RV-6 fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation RV-6 article
Gary, I plugged your formula into Excel and used the numbers for your wing, and for some reason the answer came out slightly different. It was only .03 in. off but I'm curious if your result is exactly 58.1875. Probably not a big deal right? Joel Harding ab320flyer(at)aol.com >>The MAC is simply the chord of the wing as designed. In any straight or consistently tapered wing situation the MAC can be calculated as .667*(Cr+Ct-((Cr*Ct)/(Cr+Ct))), in spreadsheet format. Cr = Chord at the root, Ct = Chord at the tip.<< ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kevin lane <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Date: Apr 14, 1997
> >Jim Sears wrote: >> >> I envy you fellas who have all the nice prepunched stuff. It sure can >> decrease the building time. > > Jim, don't be so put out, I started my -4 two years ago and I >didn't get prepunched nothing. I am very proud of the accomplishment >that I have achieved. Wings done,empannage done, fuselage, all skins >done. Ready to put on gear. > Carroll Bird, Buffalo Gap, TX > perhaps "Van's Air Force" could come up with a system of bars and stars to proudly display on the fuselage. Top honors of course would be scratch built, then non-pre-punched, Phlogiston spar, etc.. down thru the new guys with the little Philippian flag!(QB). How 'bout a star for every year the garage was occupied, and or wife? :=) kevin 6A, first wife ("I'll show you stars buster") ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Walsh <jwalsh(at)ftp.com>
Subject: EAA Tech Counselor
Date: Apr 14, 1997
>>Reply to your message of 4/14/97 12:24 PM >>=3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: chester razer >> >>Tech counselors are good resources, however there are too few of them. >>Best advice for you at this time is to contact as many local builders >>and flyers of RV's. They are very important sources of information and =09 >>End of message I would also suggest that if he has little background he should validate a= nything a tech counselor tells him HERE on the list!! Also, use the archiv= es to look up the specific steps he is about to do. =20 In addition, I suggest he read up on the HS but start with the VS instead.= It is smaller, cheaper and much more managable than the HS and can even b= e built without the jig ( on a bench). He will also find that parts ( pa= rticularly empennage ) are dirt cheap from Van. There is no need to panic = over a mistake, nor is there any need to try to save individual pieces. J= ust work on something else for a while and order new parts. =20 Sorry I didn't reply to the original poster but I seem to have lost his not= e. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles (should be rib attach angles)
Hi all: We do it this way: Clamp the skins to the spar, at the correct location. Mark the rib locations (through the pre-punched holes) onto the spar. This will tell you where the skin wants the ribs to locate. When attaching the ribs to the spar (or locating the attach angles), you will now see how much (if any) you will need to move the attach angle, and which direction. If you have a consistent inboard or outboard movement necessary, why not simply move the skin 1/16 or so, to get the pre-punched holes to line up with where the spar wants the ribs to locate? Keep it simple.... Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles (should be rib attach angles)
Hi all: We do it this way: Clamp the skins to the spar, at the correct location. Mark the rib locations (through the pre-punched holes) onto the spar. This will tell you where the skin wants the ribs to locate. When attaching the ribs to the spar (or locating the attach angles), you will now see how much (if any) you will need to move the attach angle, and which direction. If you have a consistent inboard or outboard movement necessary, why not simply move the skin 1/16 or so, to get the pre-punched holes to line up with where the spar wants the ribs to locate? Keep it simple.... Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles (should be rib attach angles)
Hi all: We do it this way: Clamp the skins to the spar, at the correct location. Mark the rib locations (through the pre-punched holes) onto the spar. This will tell you where the skin wants the ribs to locate. When attaching the ribs to the spar (or locating the attach angles), you will now see how much (if any) you will need to move the attach angle, and which direction. If you have a consistent inboard or outboard movement necessary, why not simply move the skin 1/16 or so, to get the pre-punched holes to line up with where the spar wants the ribs to locate? Keep it simple.... Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Slider canopy/rollbar gap
> When I close the canopy latch on my -6 slider there's a gap of about > 1/4" between the roll bar and the front bow of the canopy frame. That sounds like about what I have. > There's so much slop that the spring on the handle wants to pull the > handle open. Is your roll bar center brace in place? Without it the roll bar will spring enough to possibly cause this slop. Otherwise you might need to fabricate a new C-654 latch out of raw stock, with a slightly shorter arm. Shouldn't be too difficult. > Have others had a similar gap? Has anybody found a > good seal for this gap? I'm wondering about this too. I've been told that it won't help much, if rain wants to get in around the fairing, it will, but still I'd like to put a weather seal in there myself. Probably some sort of auto door seal type material. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Caldwell" <rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Sun N Fun - RVs???
Date: Apr 14, 1997
I just got back from attending Sun N Fun. This was my first time there. I didn't arrive until Thursday morning. There were only 5 RVs in the show plane area. I was shocked to find so few. No one was around to talk with so I surmized that most everyone came at the beginning of the week and had already left to go home. On Friday and Saturday, I counted only 3 RVs. Can anyone who was there the first part of the week give me some feel for how many RVs did I miss out on??? Yes, I was dis-appointed seeing how I traveled over 2000 miles to get there. Anyway, it taught me a lesson to attend at the first part of the week rather than the latter part. For those who haven't attended and plan to next year, learn from me, go early. I will for sure be at Oshkosh several days early. Ron Caldwell rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net RV6A - Riveting Fuselage Skin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Prepunched parts (chatter)
z> >>I was at the sun & fun dinner and Van said they was working on a >>pre punch fuselage RV6A now . Hope that includes RV6 fuselages too! >I've been just ahead of them on my orders and have yet to get anything >> prepunched except the firewall. I'm just behind their pre-punch program; been sweating in the PP fuse being done in time. >I sure envy you guys that got the prepunched firewall.(G) Hey, this pre-punched stuff ain't all *that* great... the manual, the video, and the parts don't correlate very well. And some of the holes in my spar weren't even deburred. ;-) Frank (#24692, building wing spars) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: throttle quad
RV-4 builders Having just returned from sun-n-fun, I noticed a lot of diffrent throttle quadrants. However I have only seen the one van's sells, and one that wicks sells. Are there some more companies out there that I do not know about. Also what lenght cable's should I use, van's offers 55 and 60 inches? And what about cable attachment at the carb, did we all use van's attachment plate? And while I'm at it does anybody have experience with the fuel primer selonoid George Orndorff has in his systems video. Any info would be of great help. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH Tallahassee,FL. drowning in motor stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard_Smith(at)brahms2.tivoli.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
I have just completed and flown a 0-360 powered RV-6 (N1150S) with a TWR oil cooler mounted on the left rear of the baffling. The TWR cooler comes from a automotive racing catalog for $ 89.00 and is about half the size and weight of the prehistoric Stewart Warner coolers. My oil temps are on the cool side of the green range for lycomings even with this small cooler. If oil temps are a problem with the oil cooler mounted as described, then the culprit may be the vernitherm, which has the job of sending oil to the cooler at a predetermined temperature. Rick Smith, Austin, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Stan Blanton <75472.372(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
Regarding mounting the oil cooler on the baffle at the left rear: My belief is that the problem Orndorff had with cooling appeared to be caused by the oil line installation. The supply line appeared to be connected to the top port and the outlet to the bottom. This is apparently opposite of what is needed because the oil will run through the cooler before it ever cools. Any installation needs to have the outlet port above the inlet port to allow the oil to fill the whole cooler. This holds true regardless of where the cooler is mounted. My opinion only, Stan Blanton RV-6 75472.372(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: trim in motion warning
/So say your coming in to land and give a little up trim /as you slow... You lift your finger off of the trim switch /but you keep hearing the tone.... You know you have /trouble instantly.... Pull the trim C/B and the emergency /is over.... I had real heartburn over most of the warning and/or emergency proceedures wrapped around trim systems. It seems that the bigger the airplane, the worse it gets. But I really object to the idea that a pilot is expected to take his eyes from the runway ahead, panel in front and start searching for a breaker to pull . . . see guys, that's why I HIDE 'EM! If you don't put them in the cockpit, then you have to do a BETTER job of handling the situation. /Maybe we could get Bob N. to design us an nice system that /would provide a tone that would not make us crazy and /help warn us of possible uncommanded trim motion.... My favorite trim control system for little airplanes replaces the single, two-pole, double-throw, spring- loaded, center-off switch with two single pole mechanisms. In some of the King-Air size airplanes, the pilot's thumb has to actuate two, side-by-side switches simultaneously. You have to jam or break TWO switches to get uncommanded motion. It's also very easy to check in pre-flight. An alternative, is to add a second, push button in series with trim power. You have to squeeze the button to apply power and operate the trim switch simultaneously to get motion. With either of these two methods, the reactiion to undesired trim response requires nothing more than to reverse the action in your fingers that originally precipitated the fault. You don't have to look anywhere or do anything except RELAX. Some of my designs where autopilots are part of the equipment, I include a master disconnect system for ALL electically driven flight surfaces. A latching relay in series with dc power to all electric flight controls is wired in series with a normally- closed, wheel master disconnect button. In this case, any uncommanded operation of flight surfaces is reacted to in the most natural of responses . . . grab the wheel. This is where the pilot works to (1) override the uncommanded motion of flight controls and (2) disconnects all potential offending devices . . . again without so much as a glance from his most important duty of being a pilot. This same system has another feature. If electrical system power goes down for any reason, the relay drops out and makes sure that all electrically driven flght surfaces remain disabled when power returns. Many autopilots have this feature built in . . . . no sense presenting multiple surprises to the pilot when power comes back on. It doesn't have to be complicated. Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
Stan Blanton wrote: > > > RV Listers, > > For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power > supply? > > Through an avionics master, seperate switch off of main power, always hot, or I'm wiring mine through a 5 amp breaker, not a breaker with a switch, just a simple breaker. I plan on using the power switch on the unit to energize the monitor. I don't see the need for two switches in the same circuit doing the same thing. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: John Bright <john(at)catlover.com>
Subject: alternate engines, gross wt
What's up with RVs flying over gross? This is a basic question I have with airplanes, not just RVs. Does anyone know of a basic readable airplane book which explains these sorts of things. Specifically though I see engines like Belted Air Power and Old Man's Airplane Building Project cast iron 4.3 chevy V-6 engines in RV-6/6A airplanes flying over Van's gross. Also I saw an RV-6A at Van's booth at Sun-N-Fun with a 200 HP aircraft engine; the ID plate on the empennage listed gross at 1850 lbs; the guy in the tent said he thought it was 1,900 but he didn't want to discuss it; just said "it's privately owned". Am I correct in thinking it's OK to go over gross if you're willing to give up the flying and landing performance and G loading capability as long as the CG is within range? The aerobatic weight limit is 1,350 and the gross weight limit is 1,650. What happens if you do aerobatics at 1,650? Thanks! -- Potential RV-6/6A builder, 75 hour Cessna pilot, John Bright, Newport News, VA, USA, john(at)catlover.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills)
Subject: Harmon Rocket 2
Hey check six Mark (and any other Rocket owners), I was curious about weight and balance differences between the Rocket and an RV-4. What are your empty and gross weights? How much difference is there in weight between the 320/360 and the IO540? And what is done to the fuse or engine position to maintain cg. And what about stall, landing, and pattern speeds? Everybody and his brother is out there looking for a good deal on an O-320/360. What is the used market for the 540 look like, availability and price wise? I'm not seriously considering this but would still like to know. Thanks, Mike Wills RV-4(wings) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (Ken Hitchmough)
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Toronto to Bahamas
Well, after finally getting approval from the Bahamian Civil Aviation=20 Authority, my RV6A took me=20 from Toronto to Sun 'n Fun to Marsh Harbour on Abaco Island.=20 =20 The flight from Toronto Canada to Lakeland was relatively uneventful,=20 with the '6 performing=20 exceedingly well on its first long trip away from home. The Warnke=20 propellor and the rebuilt 360=20 were a very good combination of smoothness and performance and for most=20 of the trip down,=20 running at only 2250 RPM gave me about 7.5 galls per hour with an=20 indicated airspeed of 140 to=20 150 knots. Even though we did the trip in 2 to 3 hour hops, there was=20 no feeling of fatigue from=20 noise or vibration and despite me being the biggest fidget in the=20 world, the temperfoam seats=20 provided a fidgetless trip.=20 =20 The Garmin 195 also performed flawlessly and its large display was easy=20 to see in all light. Garmin even updated it for=20 free at the show from 2.01 to 2.05....quite a major speed increase and=20 some bugs removed.=20 =20 The paperwork to fly into the US from Canada is very straightforward=20 and easy, comprising of a=20 simple fax to the FAA. Approval was very quick. To get approval to fly=20 into the Bahamas=20 required a significant amount more. Practically every document I had=20 was faxed to them. They=20 even requested a letter from an A.M.E. to say I was competent to work=20 on the aircraft. After=20 speaking to them on the phone and indicating that I had built it 100%=20 (no prepunched firewall=20 here either!!) they seemed to waive that requirement.=20 =20 The flight from Fort Pierce (where we picked up life jackets) to Abaco=20 was done at 9500. Even at=20 the gross of 1750, it seemed to take no time at all to get there.=20 =20 On landing, the customs and immigration folks showed no interest in=20 seeing my flight permit but=20 you can bet that if I didn't have it they would have.....I hear its=20 very difficult to get something out=20 once its been impounded!!=20 =20 The flight back to Toronto gave me about 8 galls per hour at 2350 rpm=20 for an indicated cruise=20 of 180 mph at 5500. A few quick calculations showed an average of $18/hr=20 =20 I must say that you folks have a really good system down there. Flight=20 following made the trip far=20 easier and safer (except when we got thrown off because of all the=20 Sun'n fun traffic) and all the=20 airports we visited were friendly and helpful.=20 =20 My only regret is I didn't see too many folks from the list at S&F...ah=20 well, maybe next year.=20 =20 Ken=20 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
Scott Malone wrote: > > > Has anyone mounted the oil cooler, left-aft, as Orndorff did in his > tapes and had the same heating problem. My engine is an O320-E2D > constant speed prop. > > Installing engine baffling. RV6A > scottm(at)pld.com > Scott Malone > Ulysses, Ks. I wondered about the same thing. I'm installing my baffling now and plan to situate my oil cooler on the left rear baffel. If I remember correctly George used the alternate oil port which comes plugged and safety wired on a new engine, it's high and left of the oil filter instead of the one below and right from the oil filter, that may have had some impact. Also he didn't memtion how large the baffle opening was and how far open his oil cooler door would open. Oh well, if mine doesn't cool well I'll just move it to the firewall or up front like he did. One last thing, he never mentioned what his temperatures were. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Walsh <jwalsh(at)ftp.com>
Subject: My guess on the RV9
Date: Apr 14, 1997
So, will the RV9 be a retract RV8 with a 6 cylinder???? NO Way!! It's been= done to death. There's plenty of 1 dimensional, fast, overpowered, overpr= iced kits out there now. Van's not going to add to that noise. No, the RV9 is a two place tri-gear side by side x-country airplane. It wi= ll NOT be aerobatic. It will be strictly a normal category airplane design= ed around 125 or so horsepower. It will be a little smaller than the 6A a= nd have cruise performance in the 140--150mph range. =20 Van will make a super human effort so simplify this kit and with a very sha= rp pencil, this kit will cost around $8500. It will be powered by an O-235= /O-290 or thereabouts which should be much cheaper than the O-320/360 tha= t are in such demand. In addition, 125 hp is ripe for an auto conversion. = You know the ones that claim 200 hp. A Subaru maybe? Or a variant= on the Mazda? Who knows for sure but the "old man" knows that the biggest= single need in aviation today is affordable power. This plane will be built in 1500 hours and LESS than $20k with a fresh engi= ne. Non-pilots will be able to look at this plane as direct competition to= a boat, new car or other less worthy hobby. They will build it and th= en learn to fly in it. The pilot population will DOUBLE overnight.!! OK ma= ybe I'm getting carried away but you get the idea.... John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AtkRWC(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
You all have it wrong. I heard it from a very good soruce in "Van's Seceret Service" that the RV-9 was Vans attempt in Rotorwing aircraft to compete with the Rotorway Exec 162F but in the price range of the Mini500. It is to have a fully articulated rotor system, HUD, and fly-by-wire controls. I wasn't able to confirm this however the RV-9A is also in the works and is rummored to have the NOTAR system (at a slight increase in cost). Richard Clayton Brownsville, Tx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EAA Tech Counselor
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
Date: Apr 14, 1997
>Then I would suggest you find that tech counselor (if you haven't >done so before) and get him or her in when you are about to put >the skin on the horiz stab. You need to get it progress inspected >a few times (3 I think) and have the tech counselor send the >write-ups in to the EAA if you want to get AVEMCO day 1 flight >insurance, for example. I have noticed a lot of confusion on this issue. Just to set the record straight there are 2 different benefits offered by AVEMCO to EAA members. Normally AVEMCO does not cover the first 10 hours (including the first 10 takeoffs and landings). However, if you utilize the services of an EAA Flight Advisor, which consists of information and preparing the pilot for the first phase of testing, then the first (and subsequent) flights are covered. If you utilize the services of a Technical Counselor, to include 3 or more inspections by the TC during the construction of the kit, then AVEMCO offers a 10% discount off of the policy premium. Hope this helps, Ed Bundy RV6A N427EM first flight 11/20/96 ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Mack" <donmack(at)flash.net>
Subject: Powder Coating
Date: Apr 14, 1997
charset="iso-8859-1" I was thinking of having the exposed steel part of the fuse kit powder coated (control stick, rudder and step kits). Two questions: 1) Can powder coating be painted over at a later date? I know the color I want now, but who knows what I'll want when I get to the end. 2) What type of shop does powder coating office? don mack rv-6a donmack(at)flash.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
Kevin wrote: > > perhaps "Van's Air Force" could come up with a system of bars and stars to > proudly display on the fuselage. Top honors of course would be scratch > built, then non-pre-punched, Phlogiston spar, etc.. down thru the new guys > with the little Philippian flag!(QB). I suspect that no flags are needed in many cases; at least before the bondo and the paint! Nah, I don't mean that. I'm in awe of those who built from basic kits! I look at my QB and think, I'd never have made it. I don't have that much patience. However, I do think you guys who can build airplanes from raw alumina would be able to get together and create a system of insignia. I'll even put on a Phili flag. But I will also put on a badge for "built his own engine". Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Back to the fuselage - wings later. halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com>
Subject: Air Compressors - the real poop
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Hey everybody: When I was shopping around for air compressors last year, I ran across a great deal at PriceClub/Costco: A Devilbliss 30 gallon oil-less maintenance-free model with either 4 or 4.5 horsepower, I forget now. Well, it was only about $270 and worked great. I had asked around at the local shops and here on the RV-List whether or not these belt-less models were louder or not. Everyone said not really, or hardly at all. Well I'm here to tell you, they are LOUDER. I was doing much of my building between 10:00 and midnight these past few months, and when this sucker kicked in I almost wet myself. I went out and bought a Campbell-H. 25 gallon 4 horse belted, oiled, cast-iron pumped air compressor and it is much much much quieter. It's also a much lower frequency, and you can actually have a conversation with somebody in the garage while it is running! It listed for $429 but I got a sale price of $369 and boy was it worth it. Hope I saved somebody's hearing, wish I could send this message back in time to myself last year! I dumped my first compressor for $200 on some compost (oops, composite) builder. ------------------------------------------ Mitchell Faatz San Jose, CA RV-6AQME N727MF (reserved) Working on wings: hanging flaps ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: John Ely <jmely(at)shentel.net>
Subject: Prop Governor Oil Line
For those of you who have successfully hooked up a prop governor, what material did you use for the oil line? A call to Textron advised the use of a factory formed solid stainless steel 5/15" tube with -5 steel fittings OR a new flexible Teflon hose 3/8" diameter with -6 steel fittings BUT IT COSTS $200 !!! Has anyone used the Aeroquip 701-6 hose and fittings that Van's sells? Any advice welcomed, Thanks. John Ely ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: emcole <emcole(at)concentric.net>
Subject: Gross Weight
Okay all you aeronautical engineers----how can I compute the effects of increasing the gross weight of the RV6A. I have seen gross weights from factory recommendations to almost 300 lbs more with CG ranges still intact. I know the wing loading increases, but how can you calculate other effects such as stall speed, Vne, etc. Any takers on this one? Thanks, Ed Cole RV6A Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
Stan Blanton wrote: > > > RV Listers, > > For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power > supply? > > Through an avionics master, seperate switch off of main power, always hot, or > something else? > > Thanks in advance, > > Stan Blanton > RV-6 > 75472.372(at)compuserve.com Stan I have mine hooked up through a seperate on/off switch and turn it on only after the engine is started, I suppose it could be hooked up with the avionics switch but I just choose to do it seperate. At one time I had it hooked to the master switch and one time I must have got a elec. spike while starting my engine because it knocked out all of the numbers programed in the tables and I had to reprogram it. Since putting it on a seperate switch I've had no problems in seven years. It is one of my favorite insturments. -- Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Mike Weller <clue(at)sig.use.it>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
>Obviously, I meant side by side version of the RV-8. Don't you just >love the Internet, where you can make a stupid mistake and 700 people >are instantly aware of it :-) > >Steve Johnson > Steve, You're not alone. I recently thanked DJ Lauritsen by referring to her as Mr. Lauritsen. Did you also get 700 responses? For clarification, and an apology, Ms. Lauritsen of Cleaveland Aircraft Tool gave some excellent advise on the care and use of pneumatic squeezers. Mike Weller RV-8 (under construction) midibu(at)hsv.mindspring.com (preferred) or mike.weller(at)msfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Dave Barnhart <barnhart(at)a.crl.com>
Subject: Chatter
With tongue in cheek, George McNutt wrote: >The mini-twin will appeal to those wanting the security of an affordable >twin with certified engines and low operating cost. A man's gotta know his limits, and I certainly know mine: A few years ago, I spent ten hours in an AST 300 simulator working on my IFR proficiency. It was VERY helpful. This particular AST 300, however was set up as a twin. I was a Bonanza driver, so we just ignored the second set of engine guages. The point of all this though, is that on those few occasions when I was doing particularly well (NDB approach, partial panel, multiple failures, heavy turbulence) the CFI would get devious and fail an engine on me. I died every time. I came away from that experience knowing that unless I could afford to participate in some sort of ongoing multi-engine proficiency training, my first engine-out experience at low speed would likely be my last. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 installing electrical and avionics ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bcg007(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
<< > I'm in the process of locating and drilling the wing rib reinforcing > angles to the spar prior to fitting and drilling the ribs to them. > ... > So I've done that-- the angles are EXACTLY in the positions indicated. > ... > only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle >> OK, so I had to know. I'm a furnature maker and don't make too many measurement errors--this one really bugged me. Attached is a spreadsheet that details my calculations. Basically, I calculated a theoretical bolt hole location from the 6A plans diagram SK32A (a supplemental drawing showing precise rib locations to ensure correct alignment--If I know the rib locations, then I know the angle locations, then I know the bolt locations, assuming dead center on angle). I then compared the calculated bolt hole location to actual and the drawing. Bottom line: locations 1,2,3,4 (from root end) show calculated bolt hole and actual are identical. Locations 5,6,7,8,9 show the bolt hole will miss the center of the angle by .125 inches. Locations 10,11,12 will miss by .063 inches. Locations 13 and 14 get no angle. I appreciate many fine responses I got from y'all. I'll let you know what Van's says. I'm beginning to suspect the slight offset won't matter, even though its not 2D away. I'll probably re-make the few angles and offset them to keep the bolt hole near center and my rivet line in-spec. I'll cross check against the skin just to make sure. Hope this provides some perspective for the next generation wing builders! If you find an error with the spreadsheet, just respond privately :) Jon bcg007(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bcg007(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Wing reinforcing angles
<< > I'm in the process of locating and drilling the wing rib reinforcing > angles to the spar prior to fitting and drilling the ribs to them. > ... > So I've done that-- the angles are EXACTLY in the positions indicated. > ... > only 1 to 1.5 dia. from the edge of the angle >> OK, so I had to know. I'm a furnature maker and don't make too many measurement errors--this one really bugged me. Attached is a spreadsheet that details my calculations. Basically, I calculated a theoretical bolt hole location from the 6A plans diagram SK32A (a supplemental drawing showing precise rib locations to ensure correct alignment--If I know the rib locations, then I know the angle locations, then I know the bolt locations, assuming dead center on angle). I then compared the calculated bolt hole location to actual and the drawing. Bottom line: locations 1,2,3,4 (from root end) show calculated bolt hole and actual are identical. Locations 5,6,7,8,9 show the bolt hole will miss the center of the angle by .125 inches. Locations 10,11,12 will miss by .063 inches. Locations 13 and 14 get no angle. I appreciate many fine responses I got from y'all. I'll let you know what Van's says. I'm beginning to suspect the slight offset won't matter, even though its not 2D away. I'll probably re-make the few angles and offset them to keep the bolt hole near center and my rivet line in-spec. I'll cross check against the skin just to make sure. Hope this provides some perspective for the next generation wing builders! If you find an error with the spreadsheet, just respond privately :) Jon bcg007(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: EAA Tech Counselor
<< Having inventoried my empennage kit, I'm ready to start; however, I see that the first tool I will need, a cleco, is one of my back ordered tools. >> Trust me, the wait is worth it and that one cleco is really going to be busy once it gets to you. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: Lawyers (chat)
<< Please just build your RV and fly it - don=92t tell us how noble your profession is. >> I'm inclined to agree with Elon on this although I hang a great deal of t= he responsibility for our current situation on the ignorance of juries too. = The case he described is typical of the way that we all get fleeced. But, th= is case would not be touched by any lawyer if there were not a fertile clima= te allowing the possibility of prevailing and gaining notoriety ($$career boost$$) from it. Lawyers are merely feeding at the trough that has been provided and that they have nurtured. Some of them clearly have no socia= l conscience and no understanding of the big picture. I think it's also a case of the few creating mayhem while most are doing = good work. They surely need to police their ranks. When I heard about Arthur Alan Wolk's jet sliding off the runway last year I just smiled to myself thinking that it was a good start. That being said, if I ever get accused of doing anything (even if it's tr= ue), I'm going to deny everything and hire the slimiest bottom-feeder and figh= t for the most justice I can afford, just like OJ. Gary VanRemortel vanremog(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
From: Don Mack <donmack(at)flash.net>
Subject: Powder coating ?'s
I was thinking of having the exposed steel part of the fuse kit powder coated (control stick, rudder pedal assembly and step kits). Two questions: 1) Can powder coating be painted over at a later date? I know the color I want now, but who knows what I'll want when I get to the end. 2) What type of shop does powder coating? Car guys? Don Mack donmack(at)flash.net http://www.flash.net/~donmack/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
with last message <970413214805_-66409115(at)emout05.mail.aol.com> <33523091.3CD4(at)mail.ic.net>
From: ab6a(at)juno.com (ALLAN E POMEROY)
Hi Pat, I think you do have a choice with the wing skins (sort of). If I remember correctly, there was a post here a couple months ago stating that you can special order single piece top wing skins. I also believe it said they would not be prepunched. Does anyone else remember seeing this? Allan Pomeroy AB6A(at)juno.com HS skeleton writes: >This is not to put down the prepunched kit - by investing a lot of >planning into my project, it has been possible to avoid mistakes. So >far. And I REALLY LOVE all the prebuilt components, like the aileron >hinge brackets. I just wish we had a choice on the skins. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
Ron, Sun, Mon, and Tues their were at least 30 to 40 planes a day. You always want to get there on the first couple days if you want to see anything. I believe the turnout wasnt as good this year because alot of people were weathered out. I was fortunate enough to get out of Colorado tues prior to the show, Most of my freinds however waited a couple extra days and couldnt get out due to bad weather. The situation was the same getting out of Florida. A sys was moving in and alot of people bailed on tues and wed. Better luck next time. Ryan Bendure RV4131RB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)sagenttech.com>
Subject: Low Fuel float switch
Date: Apr 14, 1997
I just received my low-fuel float switchs from Wicks (Compac Engineering 15-650, "The Quintessential Float Switch") and was wondering a couple of things: 1) Has anybody else used this float switch? 2) It was larger than I expected: 5.12" long, 1/4 NPT for inside-out installation (my plan) 1/2 NPT for outside-in installation Is the float switch ACS sells any smaller? 3) I was going to put 3 or 4 gallons in the tank and try to figure out the level by tapping, and putting the float switch there. I was going to prop the outboard end of the tank to achieve 3 degrees to imitate the dihedral of the wing. (and using my smartlevel!...) Does this sound correct? If anybody else has already figured out a good location, please let me know! Thanks, Mitch RV-6AQME San Jose, CA Hanging flaps ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
chester razer wrote: > > > Stan Blanton wrote: > > > > > > RV Listers, > > > > For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power > > supply? > > > > Through an avionics master, seperate switch off of main power, always hot, or > > I'm wiring mine through a 5 amp breaker, not a breaker with a switch, > just a simple breaker. I plan on using the power switch on the unit to > energize the monitor. I don't see the need for two switches in the same > circuit doing the same thing. > > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net Chet Unless there have been some changes since I bought my RMI ENcouder it does not have a on/off switch on the unit, but then it was almost eight years ago that I bought mine. Just for clarifacation we are talking about the flight inst. and not the engine monitor right? -- Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: Prepunched parts (chatter)
Date: Apr 15, 1997
>Hey, this pre-punched stuff ain't all *that* great... the manual, the >video, and the parts don't correlate very well. And some of the holes >in my spar weren't even deburred. ;-) Frank! You're breaking my heart about those rough holes! :-) I've stirred up quite a response from my comments. I actually found out that maybe it isn't all that great. Although the idea is good in theory, there is too much left to chance when quality is sometimes not as good as we'd like. Everything has to be perfect. I kinda wondered about that when they came out with the prepunched stuff. When I received my spars, prebuilt to save time, the holes were not drilled for the angle braces in the correct locations. Some were off as much as 3/16" . Fortunately, both spars were drilled exactly the same way. With a terrible knawing in my stomach, I cried to Van's; but, they sort of laughed and told me to build the wings. I did. I couldn't have done it with the prepunched holes because the ribs aren't dead center. Today, I'll go out to the shop and start working on the longerons for the fuselage. I've got some bending to do. That should be interesting. Now, I can smile when I look at those skins with no holes in them. I must admit the fuselage kit is far superior to the wing kit I got some time back. I guess that'll have to do for now. Gotta go. More mail! Thanks for the humor! Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (fuse parts going on the jig) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
> >I just got back from attending Sun N Fun. This was my first time there. I >didn't arrive until Thursday morning. There were only 5 RVs in the show >Ron Caldwell >rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net >RV6A - Riveting Fuselage Skin I was there at the first of the week, on Saturday I counted 45 RV's and there was more on Sunday. BTW it was a zoo on Sunday and next year I thought that I might go later in the week :) Tom Martin RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
Jerry, you're right, I had Micro monitor on my mine and not Micro encoder. Too Many Micro's. Micro Encoder will definitely be on a switched breaker in order to avoid spikes during startup. Jerry Springer wrote: > Unless there have been some changes since I bought my RMI ENcouder it > does not have a on/off switch on the unit, but then it was almost > eight years ago that I bought mine. Just for clarifacation we are > talking about the flight inst. and not the engine monitor right? > -- > Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: electric tach
Well my UMA electric tach packed it in for the third time in 250 hours. Does anybody have a suggestion on a new one. What types and how are they driven. This one was driven by a little generator on the tmechanical tach drive and that is where the problems occurred. Tom Martin RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Prepunched vs non-prepunched chatter
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Gang, I've created quite a thread concerning prepunched kits vs the ones that had to be done the hard way. Let's kill this thread before it eats up more of the archive space. I'm sure our provider would really appreciate it. I'm sorry I started the whole thing, even though I did learn that the prepunched stuff has it's problems, too. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (fuselage parts going on the jig, finally) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Gross Weight
Van limits the -6 design to an aerobatic gross weight of 1350 pounds. Assuming that this results from a symmetric loading of the wings, the structure is capable of sustaining 1350 pounds at a limit load factor of 6. This works out to 8100 pounds. For those who do not care for aerobatics, the aircraft may be operated in the utility category, where limit load factor is 4.4. Divide this into the design strength of the wing to get gross weight 1840 pounds. There are other structural considerations not related to flight such as gear strength and brake effectiveness. Van has been willing to provide letters allowing gross weight increases if requested. I recall that it was less than 1840 pounds. Best to check with him. Any time the weight increases so does induced drag. Climb performance and cruise speed will be reduced. Vne should not change for considerations of flutter. Calculated stall speeds, flaps up and down at different weights are tabulated below. Check the archive for previous discussions on the effect of gross weight on performance. If you can't find it, contact me off-list and I will dig up some spreadsheet format calculations. Gross Weight Vs kt pounds Flap up Flap down 1350 51.8 44.2 1650 57.3 48.9 1840 60.5 51.7 David Fried ddebt(at)pathcom.com _________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > >Okay all you aeronautical engineers----how can I compute the effects of >increasing the gross weight of the RV6A. I have seen gross weights from >factory recommendations to almost 300 lbs more with CG ranges still >intact. I know the wing loading increases, but how can you calculate >other effects such as stall speed, Vne, etc. Any takers on this one? >Thanks, >Ed Cole RV6A Wings > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
Sten is right the new engine that I installed on my RV-6A came with the oil port already installed , and they were in the wrong place. we have since moved them to the correct place per the manuel and have new problems with the cooler on the rear baffle....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Harmon Rocket 2
<< Hey check six Mark (and any other Rocket owners), I was curious about weight and balance differences between the Rocket and an RV-4. What are your empty and gross weights? EW on mine, and some others is ~1200 lbs. Gross on mine is listed at 1950 lbs. How much difference is there in weight between the 320/360 and the IO540? LOTS! I heard a lot of guesses @ S-N-F, but I'd guess 125-140 lb or so. And what is done to the fuse or engine position to maintain cg. The fuse is streched 4", between the rear spar attach & the rear seat bulkhead. The battery is moved approx. 100" (!) aft, also. And what about stall, landing, and pattern speeds? All are sub-sonic. ;-) Mine stalls about 55, but I haven't calibrated the airspeed indicator. I fly downwind at 90-100, and across the fence at 80-85 (MPH). Everybody and his brother is out there looking for a good deal on an O-320/360. What is the used market for the 540 look like, availability and price wise? 540's will sell for 2500 (core) to 15K (low time s/new). I'm not seriously considering this but would still like to know. Does your momma know you lie like that? ;-) check six! Mark >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: "R.Dieck/T.J.Dieck" <dieck(at)dwave.net>
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
Ron Caldwell wrote: > I just got back from attending Sun N Fun. This was my first time there. I > didn't arrive until Thursday morning. There were only 5 RVs in the show > plane area. I was shocked to find so few. No one was around to talk with > so I surmized that most everyone came at the beginning of the week and had > already left to go home. On Friday and Saturday, I counted only 3 RVs. > > I will for sure be at Oshkosh several days early. > > Ron Caldwell > rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net > RV6A - Riveting Fuselage Skin If you want to look at airplanes, be at Oshkosh the first weekend! If you want to attend any forums, visit any displays and be able to do anything without fighting a crowd, stay till Mon. or Tues. After the airshow make it down to the ultralite area, fun to watch airplanes during the calm of the evening. On second thought stay away form the ultralite area after the airshow. ;) If you've never been to Oshkosh, your in for a treat. Bob -- The Airplane Factory Robert & Tammie Dieck Wausau WI USA dieck(at)dwave.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Prop Governor Oil Line
From: gasobek(at)juno.com (Gary A. Sobek)
Date: Apr 15, 1997
John: I purchased a Teflon hose from an Aeroquip Distributer for $53. It was the high pressure (3000 psi) hose and I do not remember the part number. The hose that Lycoming sells has fire sleave on it. The one I bought does not. I made a hose out of air compressor hose and took that to them and asked to have a Stainless Steel Teflon hose made. I had the choice of 1500 psi and 3000 psi hose for about $4 or $5 difference. The outfit I dealt with was Huber (I think) in El Segundo California. I stopped by after work and they manufactured the hose in about 10 minutes while I waited. I also had a stainless steel "pipe" formed for free by a friend with an RV-4. (N416DH) It was not used for it interfered with the alternator bracket on my narrow deck engine. I gave it to another RV-6 builder for his aircraft. Gary RV-6 20480 N157GS writes: > >For those of you who have successfully hooked up a prop governor, what >material did you use for the oil line? > >A call to Textron advised the use of a factory formed solid stainless >steel 5/15" tube with -5 steel fittings OR a new flexible Teflon hose >3/8" diameter with -6 steel fittings BUT IT COSTS $200 !!! > >Has anyone used the Aeroquip 701-6 hose and fittings that Van's sells? > >Any advice welcomed, Thanks. > >John Ely > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Prop Governor Oil Line
> >For those of you who have successfully hooked up a prop governor, what >material did you use for the oil line? > >A call to Textron advised the use of a factory formed solid stainless >steel 5/15" tube with -5 steel fittings OR a new flexible Teflon hose >3/8" diameter with -6 steel fittings BUT IT COSTS $200 !!! > >Has anyone used the Aeroquip 701-6 hose and fittings that Van's sells? > >Any advice welcomed, Thanks. > >John Ely > John: Before you go inventing your own way, refer to AD 90-04-06 R1 refering to Gov. oil line and fittings. This AD required a switch to steel fittings among other things. The oil pressure in this line can run around 275 lbs. and puke out in a hurry if it or the fittings fail. Little things to think about if you run your own line. The AD also goes into the way you support the line. I have the factory line on my 0-360. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying 180 C/S ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Ron, I was there Sun through Thursday, although I didn't stay for the air show Mon or Thur, and left the other days right after the air show. Having an IFR rating really made the difference. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: > >Ron, > Sun, Mon, and Tues their were at least 30 to 40 planes a day. You always >want to get there on the first couple days if you want to see anything. I >believe the turnout wasnt as good this year because alot of people were >weathered out. I was fortunate enough to get out of Colorado tues prior to >the show, Most of my freinds however waited a couple extra days and couldnt >get out due to bad weather. The situation was the same getting out of >Florida. A sys was moving in and alot of people bailed on tues and wed. >Better luck next time. > Ryan Bendure >RV4131RB > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: electric tach
>Well my UMA electric tach packed it in for the third time in 250 hours. >Does anybody have a suggestion on a new one. What types and how are they >driven. This one was driven by a little generator on the tmechanical tach >drive and that is where the problems occurred. >Tom Martin RV-4 Tom, I'm using a Braal electronic tach that I purchased from Van's. In 350 hours, it hasn't missed a beat. this tach has a sensor mounted up front (mine's on the front baffle) and it counts alternating black and white bands that I painted on the ring gear. That's the downside on this unit. Laying out, masking and painting the 30 (?) alternating black and white bands is a real pain and time consuming. Even though this tach has worked well, I'll be watching this thread for a better idea for my next six. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
>Has anyone mounted the oil cooler, left-aft, as Orndorff did in his >tapes and had the same heating problem. My engine is an O320-E2D >constant speed prop. Scott; I have a E2D in a 6 and the cooler is in the top left aft on the baffle. Don't know about Orndorfts, but if anything mine cools too much, had to close down the opening size. Eventually put a valve in the supply line to be able to bring the oil temp up. There is some discussion on this in the archives. John Darby RV6 N61764 flying Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Medical Waiver
I would like to hear from anyone that has completed the process of getting a medical waiver to continue flying. Specifically after a heart attack. I realize that this has nothing to do with building an airplane, but it damned sure has something to do with my continuing to (legally) fly one. Please respond direct to keep the fluff from the busy people. Thanks. John Darby RV6 N61764 flying Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: catbird(at)taylortel.com (TTC Carroll A. Bird)
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
Stan Blanton wrote: > > > RV Listers, > > For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power > supply? > > Stan Blanton > RV-6 > 75472.372(at)compuserve.com Stan- I have the encoder and the monitor already built and working, however they are not installed in the -4. I intend to place a SPDT switch somewhere on the panel to turn the encoder on and off. I have the gel-cell battery option for the monitor, and Ron Mower assures me that this battery will run both instruments for about 4 hours with the el lamp off. So, the other position of the switch will be hooked to the auxillary battery that works off the monitor. Up will be normal power. Center will be off. Down will be aux power. Hope this helps. If you don't have the aux option. I would definitely have a SPST switch for the power to the encoder. Carroll Bird Buffalo Gap TX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: catbird(at)taylortel.com (TTC Carroll A. Bird)
Subject: Re: RMI MicroEncoder
chester razer wrote: > > > Stan Blanton wrote: > > > > > > RV Listers, > > > > For those using a RMI MicroEncoder how do you have it connected to the power > > supply? > > > > Through an avionics master, seperate switch off of main power, always hot, or > > I'm wiring mine through a 5 amp breaker, not a breaker with a switch, > just a simple breaker. I plan on using the power switch on the unit to > energize the monitor. I don't see the need for two switches in the same > circuit doing the same thing. > > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net Thats fine Chet however the monitor has an off-on switch the encoder does not. Carroll Bird ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Boris" <smbr(at)digital.net>
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Saturday, Sunday, & Monday there were quite a few, though not as many as last year. Overall, there was a marked absence of experimentals. This was probably due to the front line between us (florida) and the rest of the States. Sat through about Tues. has always been the most active time. The number of RVs is still taking over the exp. field. ---------- > > I just got back from attending Sun N Fun. This was my first time there. I > didn't arrive until Thursday morning. There were only 5 RVs in the show > plane area. I was shocked to find so few. No one was around to talk with > so I surmized that most everyone came at the beginning of the week and had > already left to go home. On Friday and Saturday, I counted only 3 RVs. > > Can anyone who was there the first part of the week give me some feel for > how many RVs did I miss out on??? Yes, I was dis-appointed seeing how I > traveled over 2000 miles to get there. Anyway, it taught me a lesson to > attend at the first part of the week rather than the latter part. For > those who haven't attended and plan to next year, learn from me, go early. > > I will for sure be at Oshkosh several days early. > > Ron Caldwell > rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net > RV6A - Riveting Fuselage Skin > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kiwi(at)jetstream.net (Kiwi)
Subject: Plane 4 Sale
Date: Apr 15, 1997
I realise this is not the right stuff for the list bu local builder has started his RV6 and has the following craft 4 sale: -Avid Flyer Advanced Ultralight(Canada) -2 place -Folding wing -125 TT -Completed Oct 95 -Cruise 85MPH -65HP Rotax 582LC -Fuel burn 17 litres/hour (3.8litres to US Gal) -Dual Wing tanks, Matco Brakes, deluxe interior, penetration skis -Tow Bar for towing on highway -excellent low cost aircraft -$22,000.00 US Funds -Will deliver for expenses Call Larry Williams @ 250 558-9669 or E-Mail sender direct please. This is a really nice aircraft for anyone wanting something like this ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: electric tach
> >Well my UMA electric tach packed it in for the third time in 250 hours. >Does anybody have a suggestion on a new one. What types and how are they >driven. This one was driven by a little generator on the tmechanical tach >drive and that is where the problems occurred. > >Tom Martin >RV-4 > Electronics. Int. Not cheap, but everything they make works. Hooks up to the mags. Has total hour meter, flight timer, max rpm. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying since 8-94 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
> >I have just completed and flown a 0-360 powered RV-6 (N1150S) with a TWR >oil cooler mounted on the left rear of the baffling. The TWR cooler comes >from a automotive racing catalog for $ 89.00 and is about half the size and >weight of the prehistoric Stewart Warner coolers. My oil temps are on the >cool side of the green range for lycomings even with this small cooler. If >oil temps are a problem with the oil cooler mounted as described, then the >culprit may be the vernitherm, which has the job of sending oil to the >cooler at a predetermined temperature. >Rick Smith, Austin, Texas > > I check Summit Racing Equip. but did not see a TWR. Could you tell us more, where, size, etc? I have a O-320 from Sea Hawker got away from a fellow on landing that I am installing, it came with an old and battered oil cooler that I am going to replace. This sounds great. I have also been trying to get more information on where to locate the oil cooler. I have seen lots of RV's with the oil cooler located in the back as well as the front. I also was interested in the way the fellow in California with great looking silver RV-4, a dentist I believe, had angled his cooler downward off the back baffle. The idea was to help direct the air out better. Does anyone know how his worked out? denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Drag & Sport Aviation ?
Anti- Drag Listeners, In reading the article on "Fluid Dynamics" of the RV-6, April Sport Aviation, the flow around the carb box caught my attention. I saw one RV-4 with a NASA inlet for carb air inlet. Which looked clean, but the builder didn't have much to say about it one way or the other. I have seen other articles, one by Van that left me to believe that better airflow would be achieved by having the carb box inlet as close to the prop as possible. Much the same I believe as the Lopresti (?) mod for engine cooling. I notice on the RV-8 (1st proto) the inlet is up near the prop. Though it is fuel injected that I wouldn't think would be the reason. I have wondered if "fluid Dynamics" were tested on that installation. Has anyone played with this idea or have any ideas and comments? denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler placement
At , you wrote: >> >>Sten is right the new engine that I installed on my RV-6A came with the oil >>port already installed , and they were in the wrong place. we have since >>moved them to the correct place per the manuel and have new problems with the >>cooler on the rear baffle....George Orndorff >> > George, What "new problems with the cooler on the rear baffle" ? I have this silly idea that I will do it right the first time. Silly, right? denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: caummisa(at)arn.net (Richard Caummisar)
Subject: Re: Toronto to Bahamas
> >On landing, the customs and immigration folks showed no interest in=20 >seeing my flight permit but=20 >you can bet that if I didn't have it they would have.....I hear its=20 >very difficult to get something out=20 >once its been impounded!!=20 There are too many other places to fly to, I'll spend my money some place other than the Bahamas. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
I was at Sun and Fun on the first Sunday, opening day. I was also somewhat disappointed in the number of RV's in attendance, although it looked like maybe thirty or forty in attendance. I know the weather had been somewhat nasty up north, I'm thinking many didnt want to fight the weather to get there. Also, the field this year due to dry conditions was extemely dusty. All the planes were covered with dirt and grass. I don't think I would put my RV-4 out there! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: electric tach
<< Well my UMA electric tach packed it in for the third time in 250 hours. Does anybody have a suggestion on a new one. What types and how are they driven. This one was driven by a little generator on the tmechanical tach drive and that is where the problems occurred. Tom Martin RV-4 >> Tom: I'd use a different type of electronic tach, if available. I sure don't trust the accuracy of the a/c mech types. Would one from Jeff Rose work (with the mag)? Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Chatter - engine failure
Hi all, Dave Barnhart wrote about an RV-9 twin: > I spent ten hours in an AST 300 simulator working on my IFR proficiency. > It was VERY helpful. This particular AST 300, however was set up as a > twin. I was a Bonanza driver, so we just ignored the second set of engine > guages. > > The point of all this though, is that on those few occasions when I was > doing particularly well (NDB approach, partial panel, multiple failures, > heavy turbulence) the CFI would get devious and fail an engine on me. I > died every time. > Most of the light twin flyers who try it one engine out do too! With a single engine aircraft (memory stuff here!) a forced landing due to engine failure is twice as likely for any given flight as it is with a light twin. However, if a forced landing is made, the twin is twice as likely to result in fatalities. Many light twins are unable to maintain altitude high enough for much of the country. > I came away from that experience knowing that unless I could afford to > participate in some sort of ongoing multi-engine proficiency training, my > first engine-out experience at low speed would likely be my last. > After doing some really imprecise research I determined that the owner-pilot of a well maintained single engine aircraft was likely to experience an engine failure forced landing once in every forty lifetimes. That is, once every 40 times 2000 hours of flight time. I figure this is pretty good odds since I am in a good position to land dead stick at least half the time. I had a rod bearing failure in my Deb a few years ago. I can't say the engine was any more than just adequately maintained. I knew something was wrong with it as it went in for annual. It was skipping a beat every so often. The mechanic found extensive corrosion in the right mag and replaced it. He did not ("I'm not making this up!") even open up the left mag which was the same age! The engine failure was within three hours after the annual. It began with the missing being more frequent and then a clattering sound. I slowed and began a slow descent from 8000. I made Red Bluff easily after passing over much flat land. The oil pressure never did go down very much. This 1500 hour engine had 1300 hours on it. It was 13 years since local shop overhaul. Former owner some years flew only 8 hours! I should have torn it down when I bought it but it seemed so expensive! Beech considers it "storage" if the aircraft sits for more than a week. For flyable storage, one week to one month, the prop should be hand turned thru six revs each week. I don't know of anyone who actually does it. Usually, if corrosion does start it does it on the cam lobes. When the bumps grind down, it begins to run differently. Eventually, the grindings eat up other stuff like soft bearing inserts. Most aircraft mechanics know little about engines beyond how to install them and do basic adjustments. Try to find one who either does overhauls in his shop or who does them on cars. I see now a nice feature of auto engines. Run it in the plane a few hundred hours then install it in the pickup. Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Back to the fuselage - wings later. halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
> I think you do have a choice with the wing skins (sort of). If I > remember correctly, there was a post here a couple months ago stating > that you can special order single piece top wing skins. I also believe > it said they would not be prepunched. Does anyone else remember seeing > this? It's discussed in the FAQ, and also lots about it in the archives. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
> When I was shopping around for air compressors last year, I ran > across a great deal at PriceClub/Costco: A Devilbliss 30 gallon oil-less [snip!] I had asked around > at the local shops and here on the RV-List whether or not these > belt-less > models were louder or not. Everyone said not really, or hardly at all. You must be joking. This has come up several times on the list, and I personally have posted probably 10 responses about it, warning people how loud these compressors are -- and this one in particular, which is exactly the one I have. And checking the archives I see around 30 references to it. Sorry you missed them. I'm still suffering with the thing, but at least I was able to move it to an adjacent room where it doesn't bother me too much. The only other problem I've had with it is the regulator, which has failed twice. The first time they replaced it even though it was just out of warranty. The second time, less than a year later, they didn't go for it and I had to buy a new one. They did tell me however that they changed to a different design of regulator, so hopefully the newer ones are more reliable. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sun N Fun - RVs???
Date: Apr 15, 1997
I've been watching this thread a little. If you folks do some looking outside Lakeland airport during Sun-n-Fun, you may find some of the missing ones. I keep my Cheetah at Winter Haven due to the mess one gets into at Lakeland. Yeah, I flew in there a couple of times; but, the dust is awful! Anyway, I usually see some RVs at Winter Haven. I'm betting other airports have them, too. Just look around a bit the next time you go. As some of you know, Winter Haven is also Van's favorite place for introduction rides. I got my one and only flight in a RV-6A there. I was hooked. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (just bent those longerons) AA5A Cheetah N26276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com>
Subject: RV-9
This will be a three-place stretched version of the RV-6 airframe using the RV-8 wing technology and leaf main gear in either tricycle or conventional form. The engine mount will be extended forward and will utilize the Franklin 220 hp engine resulting in a useful cg. Extending the mount forward will allow for a forward baggage compartment to offset the lost space taken up by the third seat, when utilized. The increased fuel capacity of the RV-8 wing tanks will give it an acceptable range. The gross weight will be increased accordingly. JMHO, but I would be happy to accept deposits to pass along for a proof of concept design and a production line slot! Les Williams/RV-6AQBME/N24LW (reserved)/Tacoma WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: mauser(at)claris.com (Richard Chandler)
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
Yeah, the compressor thread went around last year. On the advice of the list, I ended up getting a Cambell-Hausefield 4.5 HP 20 Gallon belt drive for $369 (- 10% for the coupon I had). I then found that Mongomery Ward had a 4.5 HP 25 Gallon model for a little less. (C-H really mixes and matches the parts, I guess). But I don't mind, since the size is actually more convenient in my shop. Anyway, it's belted, and is very tolerable noise wise, and frankly, I can just barely resist making a Tim Allen laugh and yelling "I love having air tools!" every time I use something. (The Butterfly impact driver is my favorite, an air drill with a screwdriver clutch in it is a close second, although the simple blower has to be the most frequently used. It gets cat hair off of your face in a flash.). I bought a cheap Coleman air filter which I put inline, mounted to a block of wood I attached to the handle. It's a good idea. Don't be afraid to cut the air hose. I bought some fittings and after the 1.5' section leading to the filter, I cut the remaining hose at the 1/3 mark and added quick disconnects, to give me three useful lengths. Don't forget to drain the tank regularly! I had to replace the petcock recently because it rusted shut and I broke off the handle trying to open it. (Don't they prime the inside of the tanks? Where is the rust coming from?) One question for C-H owners. One of the doo-dads that came with it was a short length of pipe and an end cap. On a compressor I had seen someone return, they had taken this pipe and screwed it into the pump housing where the drain plug was, and put the cap over it. It seemed to me to be a good way of draining the oil without if leaking directly onto the tank. Is that what it's actually for? How often have you changed your compressor oil? I probably ought to change mine now. -- "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Dean Spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers (chat)
aol.com!Vanremog(at)matronics.com wrote: > = > =3D=3D> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog(at)aol.com > = > = > << Please just build your RV and fly it - don=92t tell us how noble you= r > profession is. >> > = > I'm inclined to agree with Elon on this = I've been told that the English (Great Britain) legal system has "solicitors" and "barristers", and that they do not allow them to take cases on a percentage of the settlement, but on a flat fee basis only. = This certainly sounds like a better system than we have. Any thoughts from someone who knows how they do it? = -- = Dean & Scott Spencer-- dspencer(at)kiva.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
SNIP I also was >interested in the way the fellow in California with great looking silver RV-4, > a dentist I believe, had angled his cooler downward off the back baffle. The >idea was to help direct the air out better. Does anyone know how his worked out? > >denny h. RV-6 Fuselage > I have mine set up almost the same as Dave Anders(Mentioned above) Actually I've seen alot of them angled. It's really a fit problem in the 4. The full sized aircraft coolers are large and you have to play with them to be able to get the hoses to and from and have the fittings miss the engine mount and cowl. My cooler works fine.....too cool usually, but I built an adjustable door in the inlet so I can cut it off when it's cold outside. The placement behind the cylinder showed no effect on the cylinder temp. (I have all 4 probed) Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying since 8-94 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard_Smith(at)brahms2.tivoli.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
Concerning oil coolers. TMR Racing in Ca. (714) 771-1348 is the manufacturer of very nice, high quality, lightweight oil coolers with -6 size, 37 degree male flare fittings. I have the small one they recommended for my 0-360 on the rear baffle and the oil temps run to cool, even in Texas. The next size down may be a better match. -6Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Sport Aviation RV-6 article
<< I plugged your formula into Excel and used the numbers for your wing, and for some reason the answer came out slightly different. It was only .03 in. off but I'm curious if your result is exactly 58.1875. Probably not a big deal right? >> Probably. The equation is not mine but is out of Martin Hollman's aircraft design book. We used this book in addition to magazine articles and any other info we could dredge up for the Treadwell P-38 Lightning replica that has recently flown. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: mauser(at)claris.com (Richard Chandler)
Subject: Cost of Welding Gear
About a week or so ago I wrote: > I've now ended up with three different BernzOMatic torches, including > the two-tank oxygen torch. Being a bit of a Pyro (left over from my > Boy Scout days), is there anything you can do about the incredibly > short life of the oxygen cylinders? I was experimenting with cutting > a chunk of scrap metal and got maybe 1.5" of cutting before the O2 ran > out. At $8 a pop for 10-20 minutes worth of oxygen, I might be better > off taking the thing back and getting a full blown oxy-Acetelyne rig, > even though I don't do much welding, yet. I took the torch back, and started drooling over the Oxy-Acetelyne torches. (How can you read the package that says that it can cut through 5 inch thick steel and not go "Wooooooo...."). There seemed to be two varieties of kits at the store. One was just the gear for about $150. You had to go get tanks of gas elsewhere. The other included some small, but empty tanks, and were over $100 more expensive. Having never dealt with welding supply companies before, can anyone tell me what this stuff costs and what's the best way to get into this? -- The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight, a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS. -- Richard Chandler ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
<< My belief is that the problem Orndorff had with cooling appeared to be caused by the oil line installation. The supply line appeared to be connected to the top port and the outlet to the bottom. This is apparently opposite of what is needed because the oil will run through the cooler before it ever cools. Any installation needs to have the outlet port above the inlet port to allow the oil to fill the whole cooler. This holds true regardless of where the cooler is mounted. >> I agree. The left rear baffle is the position of choice by many builders in our area and they are work great even when they fly to AZ. IMO George's problem was that he didn't use the correct lower outlet port and also didn't use -8 hoses. I followed Van's, Lycoming's and Sacramento Skyranch's advice and plumbed it right for my new O-360-A1A. I am pretty sure that the new O-320 ports are the same. Don't know about older vintage. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
Mitch Faatz wrote: > > I had asked around > at the local shops and here on the RV-List whether or not these > belt-less > models were louder or not. Everyone said not really, or hardly at all. > > Well I'm here to tell you, they are LOUDER. I was doing much of my > building between 10:00 and midnight these past few months, and when > this sucker kicked in I almost wet myself. > >I second Mitch's sentiments. I have a 5 hp Craftsman 33 gallon oil type compressor. The guy in the bay next to me has a Craftsman 3.5 hp 20 gallon oilless compressor. Both compressors are fairly new. His compressor is SO loud that it will drown out the sound of mine running in my bay, even with the bay doors shut! Oilless compressors do not have the same life expectancy as a well cared for oil type unit. They are basically throw-aways when they break. I can repair,rebuild and upgrade my compressor & motor. Just my opinion Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
> >> I think you do have a choice with the wing skins (sort of). If I >> remember correctly, there was a post here a couple months ago stating >> that you can special order single piece top wing skins. I also believe >> it said they would not be prepunched. Does anyone else remember seeing >> this? > > >Randall Henderson, RV-6 > If I might suggest a real savings for one piece skins. I purchased 4X12 sheets of .032 aluminum. Layed out the measurements, layed a steel layout rule down as a guide and cut it with the thin disc that they use to trim the canopy. put some adhesive on my 6 ft. I-beam level, then stuck emery cloth to it and smoothed edges. Fit was nice and tight like it was made for it. Savings close to $150. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rimbold(at)apollo.hp.com (Rob Rimbold)
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Cost of Welding Gear
> Having never dealt with welding supply companies before, can anyone > tell me what this stuff costs and what's the best way to get into > this? I just, this week, bought an oxy/acetylene rig. My Dad works at a welding supply place in CT. I live in FL. He got me a Harris torch kit at cost - around $140. I bought oxygen and acetylene tanks locally. You've got a choice of buying the tanks or renting them. Renting would've cost me $5 per tank per month. I decided to purchase a 60 cubic ft oxygen tank (knee-high height) and a comparably-sized acetylene tank ("B" size). This gives about 2 hours of cutting time. Less gas (esp. oxygen) is needed for welding. The oxygen tank was $108, and the acetylene tank was $85. My used 225 amp AC arc welder was $50. Something that size will weld carbon steel sized 3/16" and up. Generally not recommended for aircraft welds, since it tends to spread heat far from weld. A TIG unit will cost in the low thousands, but can weld virtually kind of metal with the best control of heat. I use my neighbor's unit. BTW: For welding steel aircraft structures, many people prefer oxy/acetylene because it's easier to stress relieve the area around the weld (it can be done at the same time as the weld). 'Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Headsets
I started shopping for headsets recently and of the few I tried none seemed to be capable of reproducing genuine High Fidelity. I simply listened to a CD played through a portable CD player. I suspect that most aviation headsets are only designed to reproduce sounds within a narrow frequency range. Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is suitable for aviation use. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
<< Sten is right the new engine that I installed on my RV-6A came with the oil port already installed , and they were in the wrong place. we have since moved them to the correct place per the manuel and have new problems with the cooler on the rear baffle >> I think that George meant to say "...NO problems with the cooler on the rear baffle". Is that correct, George? -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: prop
I'm looking for a wood prop for a -4 with an 032e2d. It had a pacesetter on it and I still have the spacer and crush plate (everything but the prop). Does anyone have a cheapy for sale that will work on this engine. I don't need anything fancy. Just want to make it through a little testing and flying till I know what kind I really want. Thanks. Reply e-mail please (lottmc(at)datastar.net) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Oil Cooler Plumbing
In Vans accessory catalog, the oil cooler is equipped with 3/8" NPT ports. Am I correct in thinking that a #6 fitting is needed here. Also in the back of the catalog (hose section) Van recommends 1/2" oil lines. Am I correct in thinking that #8 fittings are needed here. My Lycoming engine manual shows both the oil supply port and return port as 0.375-18. Am I correct in thinking that this also requires #6 fittings. If all my assumptions about fittings are correct I don't see the logic in using 1/2" hose with 3/8" ports on both the cooler and engine. Will someone please shed some light on this fitting problem. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9 Guess
> > If I might suggest a real savings for one piece skins. I purchased 4X12 > sheets of .032 aluminum. Layed out the measurements, layed a steel layout > rule down as a guide and cut it with the thin disc that they use to trim the > canopy. put some adhesive on my 6 ft. I-beam level, then stuck emery cloth to > it and smoothed edges. Fit was nice and tight like it was made for it. > Savings close to $150. > > denny h. RV-6 Fuselage Denny, very good comment and tip. I'm sure you're beginning to realize as many others have that as your project progresses, Van's instructions on how to do things diminish (canopy is a good example). Some of the best advice on building came from Ken at Vans. He simply told me to visualize what the end result needed to look like and do it with what I had learned to date. At first I felt put out by the advice but after thinking about it for a few days it was some of the best advice on "how to do things" I have received. It's a good confidence builder also. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: RMI Monitor Building Tip
For anyone building the RMI monitor who uses the recommended EGT and CHT probes that RMI recommends in the installation manual, when you receive the probes (Westach) you will notice that they are 48" long and are equipped with two male pin terminals. You will need to attach a length of twisted pair shielded cable in order to have enough leads to reach your monitor unit. I called Westach, their 800 number is on each sensor, and they were happy to send me enough female crimp on connectors to make proper connection to the twisted pair shielded cable. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Steve Colwell <colwell(at)innercite.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
chester razer wrote: > > > Scott Malone wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone mounted the oil cooler, left-aft, as Orndorff did in his > > tapes and had the same heating problem. My engine is an O320-E2D > > constant speed prop. > > > > Installing engine baffling. RV6A > > scottm(at)pld.com > > Scott Malone > > Ulysses, Ks. > > I wondered about the same thing. I'm installing my baffling now and > plan to situate my oil cooler on the left rear baffel. If I remember > correctly George used the alternate oil port which comes plugged and > safety wired on a new engine, it's high and left of the oil filter > instead of the one below and right from the oil filter, that may have > had some impact. Also he didn't memtion how large the baffle opening > was and how far open his oil cooler door would open. Oh well, if mine > doesn't cool well I'll just move it to the firewall or up front like he > did. > > One last thing, he never mentioned what his temperatures were. > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net My O-360 A1A was hooked up to the port below and to the right of the oil filter and it ran too cool (140 to 150 deg.). The temp guage was within 5 deg. accuracy from 120 to 220 deg. The only time I would see 200 was on the ground after landing on a hot day. Solution? Moving the hose to the port above and to the left of the oil filter which is controlled by the Vernatherm (oil thermostat). Temp comes up to 170 to 175 in cruise. Oh yes, don't mount your cooler anywhere but the left side of the baffleing. Steve Colwell 6 with 300 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: immelmann(at)themall.net (Ed Holyoke)
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
Date: Apr 16, 1997
> I bought some fittings and after the 1.5' section leading to the=20 >filter,=20 One and a half feet isn't enough length before the filter. When you use a lot of air, the compressed air gets hot and holds a lot of moisture. By the time it's gone through a length of hose to your die grinder or whatever, it's cooled considerably and the moisture precipitates out. I suspended a filter/regulator/oiler assembly in a plywood box (sort of) and run a fifty foot hose to it, coiled under my bench. I also put a three way splitter and quick connects on it so that I can have a couple of air tools and a blower nozzle ready to go. >Don't forget to drain the tank regularly! I had to replace the petcock=20 >recently because it rusted shut and I broke off the handle trying to = open it. =20 >(Don't they prime the inside of the tanks? Where is the rust coming = from?) No they don't prime them inside. If you use a lot of air and/or there's much humidity, you'll make a lot of water. Drain it every night when you quit. When I'm running nail guns and such all day, I'll drain it at lunchtime too. >How often have you changed your compressor oil? I probably ought to = change=20 >mine now. I changed my oil after about the first ten hours and then three or four times a year after that. It wouldn't hurt to do it more often. The Campbell Hausfield 4.5 hp 20 gal unit they sell at Home Despot is a pretty good unit, I've used mine hard on construction sites running multiple tools for about three years now and it still makes air. Ed Holyoke Tail - 6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Have you tried the Sennheiser line of active noise cancelling, stereo headsets? The HMEC 200 has a freq. response of 45 - 15000 hz (not as good as I'd like, but hearing protection has to come first). They seem very comfortable. We haven't gotten them installed yet, but hear good things about them. I'll be watching eagerly for other responses... Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com KC6WYF via packet at: KC6WYF(at)W6JBT.SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Fwd: Congratulations and Thanks
Glad to hear you made your first flight. 929 looks just great. I got the April 97 Newsletter today, and picked up 8 brand new guaranteed-to-make-your-life-better tips. You sure pack a lot of good information into your letters. Education consists largely of absorbing the results of other people's trials and outcomes, and the RV community seems especially blessed with builders willing to share and help others to grow. Thank you for helping to pass the information along. Best wishes for all your future flying and projects. Hawkeye Skyote NX8XX and RV-3 (waiting for new spar design to come out) --------------------- From: hawk(at)digisys.net (Robert Hughes) Date: 97-04-15 01:29:32 EDT Glad to hear you made your first flight. 929 looks just great. I got the April 97 Newsletter today, and picked up 8 brand new guaranteed-to-make-your-life-better tips. You sure pack a lot of good information into your letters. Education consists largely of absorbing the results of other people's trials and outcomes, and the RV community seems especially blessed with builders willing to share and help others to grow. Thank you for helping to pass the information along. Best wishes for all your future flying and projects. Hawkeye Skyote NX8XX and RV-3 (waiting for new spar design to come out) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of Welding Gear
Lincoln and Miller have TIG units starting at $1,200.00 complete here in Southern CA. Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com KC6WYF via packet at: KC6WYF(at)W6JBT.SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Finn Lassen <finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: rv-9
Michael C. Lott wrote: > > > I saw a -9 overfly the area the other night. It was hard to miss with > the afterburners in full glow! Did anyone see the skywriting planes in > formation at various times at sun-n-fun? Do they use a computerized > system of some type to write with? The writing of the 5 or 6 planes was > too well synchronized for the pilots to be just eyeballing it. No matter how hard I looked. I couldn't see any planes. Is it actually done by planes, or is it really done from the ground by lasers or some such? Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richreyn(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Oil Cooler - Ornidorff
I talked to George Ornidorff at the Fredrick MD RV Forum (4/13) about his oil cooler prblem. When he intially plumbed it up (not with the smart level), he used an existing oil fitting that Lycoming had in the casing. It was for oil pressure, not flow. On the O-320, use the oil holes near the oil filter, at the 10:30 and 4:30 position. Look in the Lycoming book to see which is out/in. He connected it correctly and moved the oil cooler back to the aft baffling and it works great. The forward oil cooler location is too hard to support rigidly. Dick Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A, starting wing spars. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)msn.com>
Subject: RV-9
Since my original post re: RV-9, I've had a lot of questions as to why a three place. Well, first of all it's different and it fits in well with the conservative nature of VA. A four place all at once would be just too much! But, with the three place, most of the desirable features are carried forward in this futuristic design idea: a. The GIB (girl-in-back) feature is enhanced with BIF (buddy-in-front/GIB seating, combining the best of both worlds and eliminating a lot of jealousy. b. This feature can also double as MIF (Mother-in-law in front)/GIB which should widen the appeal for this model considerably. c. Another option expected to become popular is the GIF (girl-in-front)/DIB (dog-in-back) arrangement. d. Yet to be fully developed is the DUF (dog-up-front) feature; an idea for a forward jump seat for dogs that like the open cockpit feeling. (A really big problem here is devising a deployable wind screen to eliminate excessive drool from obstructing pilot view out of the main canopy.) Since this feature is primarily for the dogs, it will probably be delayed until normal production is under way. Hope this clears up some of the mystery! Get your orders in early for this one. Les Williams/RV-6AQBME/ N24LW (reserved)/Tacoma WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 1997
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Cooler Plumbing
> >In Vans accessory catalog, the oil cooler is equipped with 3/8" NPT >ports. Am I correct in thinking that a #6 fitting is needed here. > >Also in the back of the catalog (hose section) Van recommends 1/2" oil >lines. Am I correct in thinking that #8 fittings are needed here. > >My Lycoming engine manual shows both the oil supply port and return port >as 0.375-18. Am I correct in thinking that this also requires #6 >fittings. > >If all my assumptions about fittings are correct I don't see the logic >in using 1/2" hose with 3/8" ports on both the cooler and engine. Chet, ... inches are not inches when you talk about hoses and pipe fittings ...:^) To answer your specific question, I'm listing a table from Earl's Plumbing (the race car plumbers ...:^) catalog technical section. This table is based on effective inside diameters. Pipe thread Closest AN size fitting size 1/8 -4 1/4 -6 3/8 -8 1/2 -10 3/4 -12 As you can see, the AN -8 hose size is the closest equivalent in inside diameter to a 3/8 pipe thread, so Vans recommendations and oil filter fitting sizes are consistent. From the Aircraft $pruce catalog -- Aeroquip 666 -8 size (nominal 1/2 inch) teflon hose is actually only 0.406 inches Inside Diameter. From my ruler, the outside diameter of the narrow end of a 3/8 pipe thread fitting is just under 0.6 inches. Now you can see where an approximate match of internal diameters can come from, even though the inch figure used to designate the items are quite different. ... hope this helps ... Gil (no idea why it's that way) Alexander ... tail glass work ... ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701 "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Headsets
Chester, I have a set of david clark 13.4 stereo headsets. They weigh 13.4 ounces and are very comfortable. I also have a Quietflight stereo intercom with an Alpine in dash CD player. The sound Quality is top notch. I would highly recomend this intercom system to anyone who really enjoys listening to music (you have to hear one to believe it!) I believe the intercoms run about 385.00 and headsets can be found for around 225.00. When the radio or passenger breaks in, the music slightly fades into the background rather than abruptly cutting in and out. The guy that sells these always has a booth at Oshkosh and Sun"n"fun. Ryan RV4131RB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler placement
Denny, sorry for the typeo on the message. since I have moved the oil lines I have had NO problems with the oil cooler . Keep ,in touch ....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: UFOBUCK(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Hot Jet coatings
A company out of Arizona has a 2000 degree coating for exhaust systems. The company is called Hot Jet Coatings and caters primarily to hot rodders. Thr reputed advantages are cooler "under hood temperatures" and horsepower increases because the interior of the exhaust pipe is smoother and the exhaust flow is unimpeded. Anyone out there have an actual experience or knowledge of these people or this coating ?? I have talked to these people and they advise they are not FAA approved (that may be a point in their favor) but have done some work for homebuilders. B.Clary RV6A N75TX flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Boris <smbr(at)digital.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Cooler Plumbing
Chet, The hose wall provides parasitic drag to the oil. Due to the length of the hoses, a larger tube ID allows a better flow rate and less back pressure. The drag of a long oil hose with a small ID can exceed the drag of the oil going through a 3/8" port fitting. > If all my assumptions about fittings are correct I don't see the logic > in using 1/2" hose with 3/8" ports on both the cooler and engine. > > Will someone please shed some light on this fitting problem. > > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil cooler - O320-E2D
<< I check Summit Racing Equip. but did not see a TWR. Could you tell us more, where, size, etc? snip interested in the way the fellow in California with great looking silver RV-4, a dentist I believe, had angled his cooler downward off the back baffle. The idea was to help direct the air out better. Does anyone know how his worked out? denny h. RV-6 Fuselage >> Those coolers are from TMR in Orange, CA. 714-771-1348, and talk to Mike. I use the 13 row on an O-320, and a 19 row on the 540's. A 16 row is available for the IO-360's. I also made up a fiberglass duct to direct the air down about 45 deg and attach the cooler to the rear baffle on the -4 I had, and it worked fine. There was a space restraint that led to that type of duct. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cafgef(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Medical Waiver
<< I would like to hear from anyone that has completed the process of getting a medical waiver to continue flying. Specifically after a heart attack. >> I haven't had to get a waiver but try and contact Dr. Robert Sancetta,MD. He is a senior avaition medical examiner and handles that sort of stuff fairly successfully. His E-mail is rsancetta(at)pol.net. I did get my third class from. Good luck. Gene Francis cafgef(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RMille6453(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
I have a new 5hp Craftsman 33 gallon air compressor. It is EXTREMELY LOUD!! My neighbors are starting to complain about my project (on wings now) amongst themselves. They haven't approached me yet but I'm sure a petition is not far behind. I only build between 8am-8pm usually on weekends and evenings. I have the garage doors open to circulate the air (it's hot). Anybody experience similar situations? Tips? Thanks in advance. Rob Miller Cheetah N26256 RV8 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RMille6453(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Headsets
Hello Chet I have used Flightcom Nighthawks in my Cheetah for the last five years with good results. I have a PM2000 intercom and a Panasonic portable CD tied into it. This set up has been a great addition. Having made the rounds at OSH the last several years I can say without a doubt that the Bose headsets are far and away unmatched in sound quality and high price. I believe they have a trial offer for 30 days, it might be something to check out if you can spend the big bucks. Rob Miller Cheetah N26256 RV8 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Headsets
<< I started shopping for headsets recently and of the few I tried none seemed to be capable of reproducing genuine High Fidelity. I simply listened to a CD played through a portable CD player. I suspect that most aviation headsets are only designed to reproduce sounds within a narrow frequency range. Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is suitable for aviation use. >> My tape player sounds great in stereo running thru the Flightcom stereo intercom into stereo Softcom headsets. It's not quite as good as listening to my Sennheisers at home but I can live with it in an aircraft cockpit. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Cooler - Ornidorff
>baffling and it works great. The forward oil cooler location is too hard to >support rigidly. >Dick Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A, starting wing spars. Dick, Sorry, I'll have to disagree. I felt the forward mount was easier to fabricate in an airworthy manner than the left rear baffle mount. Other pluses for the forward location are: moving the weight of the cooler (and the oil it holds) farther forward which is an advantage for W&B on RV-6s, it's easier to fabricate an adjustable oil cooler door to regulate oil temps and the forward mount makes it easier to work on the rear of the engine (left mag, oil filter, etc.) Anyway, I've got 350 hours on my six and it has a front mounted oil cooler. No problems or cracks, yet. Judging from the un-cowled RVs that I've seen, the left rear mount location is a little easier if you're using flat (conical) engine mounts. If you're using the dynafocal mounts, there is an interference with a cross tube of the engine mount. This is why the coolers are mounted at an angle or located farther to the left on the rear baffle, which requires additional support structure. By the way, no matter what location you choose, if you're using aircraft oil coolers, don't forget to use the spacers between the flanges of the cooler and long bolts that go through both flanges. I've seen several cooler installations where just one flange is attached. With the weight of the cooler and the vibration of the engine, there is a good chance that the attach flange on the cooler will fail at some point in time. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
Ed Holyoke wrote: > > One and a half feet isn't enough length before the filter. When you > use a lot of air, the compressed air gets hot and holds a lot of > moisture. By the time it's gone through a length of hose to your die > grinder or whatever, it's cooled considerably and the moisture > precipitates out. I suspended a filter/regulator/oiler assembly in a > plywood box (sort of) and run a fifty foot hose to it, coiled under my > bench. I also put a three way splitter and quick connects on it so > that I can have a couple of air tools and a blower nozzle ready to go. I'll second that - I just added 50' of 1/2" hose, straight off the compressor, then a regulator / air seperator, then my 50' x 3/8" work hose. There is some pressure loss, but the 1/2" will help with that. However, I get no more water at the tool! Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com KC6WYF via packet at: KC6WYF(at)W6JBT.SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-9
c. Another option expected to become popular is the GIF (girl-in-front)/DIB (dog-in-back) arrangement. Thanks Les - the GIF / DIB (or vice-versa) did the trick - Permission granted, so I ordered mine yesterday, delivery in 2 weeks:) Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com KC6WYF via packet at: KC6WYF(at)W6JBT.SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROY HARRILL" <KHarrill(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Chet, I have a DRE headset that does a good job of "high fidelity". It is not nearly as comfortable as my Peltor headset, especially after a couple of hours, but there is no comparison is sound quality. The DRE is not very expensive, approximately $125. I can also highly recommend the DRE inercomms. Regards, Ken Harrill RV - 6, wings ---------- > From: chester razer <egyptian.net!crazer(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Headsets > Date: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 4:43 AM > > > I started shopping for headsets recently and of the few I tried none > seemed to be capable of reproducing genuine High Fidelity. I simply > listened to a CD played through a portable CD player. I suspect that > most aviation headsets are only designed to reproduce sounds within a > narrow frequency range. > > Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is > suitable for aviation use. > -- > Chet Razer > crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Engine Stuff for Sale
I mis-spoke. I am selling a BENDIX mag. WITHOUT the impulse coupler. Sorry. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil Cooler Plumbing
<< In Vans accessory catalog, the oil cooler is equipped with 3/8" NPT ports. Am I correct in thinking that a #6 fitting is needed here. Also in the back of the catalog (hose section) Van recommends 1/2" oil lines. Am I correct in thinking that #8 fittings are needed here. My Lycoming engine manual shows both the oil supply port and return port as 0.375-18. Am I correct in thinking that this also requires #6 fittings. If all my assumptions about fittings are correct I don't see the logic in using 1/2" hose with 3/8" ports on both the cooler and engine. Will someone please shed some light on this fitting problem. >> For best flow, Lycoming recommends that the oil cooler lines be -8. The fittings would be 3/8 NPT to -8 on the cooler (45 degree fittings work best here) and 3/8 NPT to -8 (straight on the upper return port, 45 degree on the lower out port). -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: RMI Monitor Building Tip
> >For anyone building the RMI monitor who uses the recommended EGT and CHT >probes that RMI recommends in the installation manual, when you receive >the probes (Westach) you will notice that they are 48" long and are >equipped with two male pin terminals. You will need to attach a length >of twisted pair shielded cable in order to have enough leads to reach >your monitor unit. I called Westach, their 800 number is on each >sensor, and they were happy to send me enough female crimp on connectors >to make proper connection to the twisted pair shielded cable. >-- >Chet Razer >crazer(at)egyptian.net > Chet, Did you purchase EGT and CHT probes from RMI? I am going to do a small "Kitplane" project to see if I am up to an electronics assembler, then order my RMI kits. Hey thanks for all these tips, they are great. The short time I have been on the net I have gotten great tips. Lets keep it up. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Jet coatings
B. Clary wrote, > > A company out of Arizona has a 2000 degree coating for exhaust systems. The > company is called Hot Jet Coatings and caters primarily to hot rodders. > > Anyone out there have an actual experience or knowledge of these people or > this coating ?? > >My racer friends use this product and say it really works. I'll know first hand in about a week. I'm doing some major hop-up modifications on a 1988 Nissan 300Z for a friend. A set of headers with the Jet Hot Coating is part of this. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <DougR(at)netins.net>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Date: Apr 15, 1997
charset="US-ASCII" As Paul Harvey would say, "Call Dr. Bose." Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)netins.net http://www.petroblend.com/dougr >Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is >suitable for aviation use. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Headsets
<< Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is suitable for aviation use. >> I use a Bose headset with a PS2000 intercom and an automobile CD player. True Hi-Fidelity. All three produce frequency's from 20-20,000 Hz however the cockpit environment does not allow this range to be heard. Because the Bose headsets are ANR they do allow more audio in the low frequencies. My passenger has to "suffer" with a Peltor headset. They are more comfortable then the Bose headsets but the ANR circuitry outperforms the passive Peltor set in the air. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
> without a doubt that the Bose headsets are far and away unmatched in sound quality and high price. I believe they have a trial offer for 30 days, it might be something to check out if you can spend the big bucks. > If you have a Bose Factory Outlet near you, they offer the headsets at a discounted price (still high, but discounted) Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com KC6WYF via packet at: KC6WYF(at)W6JBT.SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: electric tach
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
Date: Apr 16, 1997
>Well my UMA electric tach packed it in for the third time in 250 hours. >Does anybody have a suggestion on a new one. What types and how are >they driven. This one was driven by a little generator on the mechanical >tach drive and that is where the problems occurred. My brand new UMA tach was the only thing that didn't work right when I was getting ready to make my first flight. It would spin up to about 2000 RPM, then go berserk. I called UMA, and they wouldn't send me a new one. They wanted me to send mine back, and wait 4 weeks for them to fix it. Uh huh, sure... They told me that they had never heard of this problem before. Interestingly enough, I had found 4 people that had had the exact same problem with that tach. Needless to say, I am completely unimpressed with the folks at UMA, and will never buy anything from them again. I bought the tach from Van's and they were happy to take it back and apply the cost to an Electronics International tach. Easy to install, VERY accurate, and well worth the money. They were even able to calibrate the redline for my Sensenich prop. At 2600 RPM, the red light at the top of the scale starts flashing, and is very noticeable. I am very happy with it. Ed Bundy RV6A N427EM first flight 11/20/96 ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
Date: Apr 16, 1997
>> models were louder or not. Everyone said not really, or hardly at >all. >I'm still suffering with the thing, but at least I was able to move it >to an adjacent room where it doesn't bother me too much. > >The only other problem I've had with it is the regulator, which has >failed twice. The first time they replaced it even though it was just >out of warranty. I have to agree with Randall. This thing is only slightly quieter than sitting inside the exhaust cone of a 747 during takeoff. I had a problem with mine shortly after the warrantee expired; the reeds that open and close the airflow in the compressor self-destructed and proceeded to beat the heck out of the piston dome. I was able to replace the reed unit and apparently the piston is still okay. I wasn't using it as much anymore, so I elected not to replace it. Hopefully I won't have an uncontained piston failure someday. Although, it won't cause any damage to me since I keep the thing in the next building on the end of 200' of hose because it's so dang LOUD. You do NOT want it in the same place as your work area. Just when you get the bucking bar in that tight, blind area, and get the gun lined up, the compressor will kick on, scare the heck out of you and make you break a couple of fingers, or worse, put a smiley on your skin. Ed Bundy RV6A N427EM first flight 11/20/96 ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Fwd: Congratulations and Thanks
Hawkeye, I know this is a little off the subject, but you dont know where a guy could pick up a set of plans for a skyote do you? Ryan Bendure RV4131RB(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Oil Cooler Plumbing
Chet, Either size line and fittings will work. I have the larger size on my airplane for no reason other than I thought it might improve flow. Ive seen it done both ways. My oil temp has always ran on the cool side. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Hot Jet coatings
<< Anyone out there have an actual experience or knowledge of these people or this coating >> I used this process on my Hi-Country X-over system (you can get any color you want. I got mine done light gray but white is a better color for crack detection). The pipes do run cool. Shut-down the engine...grab the pipes...not hot. What effect this will have in the long run? Who knows. I think that anything that can reduce heat is a good thing. BTW, the cabin heat from the heat muff is HOT. So I think that the coating only effects the way heat disapates. I don't know. Sure does look good. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <CRAIG-RV-4.@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV-9
les williams wrote: > > c. Another option expected to become popular is the GIF (girl-in-front)/DIB > (dog-in-back) arrangement. > > d. Yet to be fully developed is the DUF (dog-up-front) feature; an idea for a > forward jump seat for dogs that like the open cockpit feeling. (A really big > problem here is devising a deployable wind screen to eliminate excessive drool > from obstructing pilot view out of the main canopy.) Since this feature is > primarily for the dogs, it will probably be delayed until normal production is > under way. > > Hope this clears up some of the mystery! Get your orders in early for this > one. > > Les Williams/RV-6AQBME/ N24LW (reserved)/Tacoma WA > > LesI would build the 3 place DUF since I take my dog to the airport every day. Her job is to bite anyone who touches my airplane or it's respective parts, runoff the people who come by the hanger to waste valuable building time ( she's a Rhodesian Ridgeback at 117 pounds ). Since she's putting in all of this time and effort I guess I should her a ride. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH Tallahassee,FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "David J. Fitzgerald" <theredbaron(at)204.119.177.28>
Subject: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
Hello, I am a first time builder - I havent ordered anything yet but am very close. I know what tools to order (I think! - Cleaveland tools complete airframe kit) - I know to get a belt drive compressor - What I would like from the group is - What problems have you had? I need to really feel like I can finish the project before I purchase anything. I know I will love doing it but am afraid of some UNKNOWN problem that might totally stump me! (Is this feeling common?) Has everything gone together smoothly, as advertised? Are you on time with the company estimates of hours? Anything will be greatly appreciated - Thanks for the help ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Will it REALLY work ?????
Re: GPS article /I just read your article on GPS's. I've been /told by some pilots that the "boater" GPS's are /only accurate for slower moving vehicles. Only by pilots that have not taken the time to find out for themselves. The "slow" receivers are just as accurate as the fast ones, they're simply limited in software from displaying any speeds above a certain value to discourage pilots from taking advantage of lower cost receveivers and forcing them to buy the more expensive models. /In fact, the speed 100 knots was mentioned by more /than one pilot as the maximum speed at which the /boater GPS's would function properly. NOT TRUE witht the GPS2000 which tracks and displays speeds through 500 kts. I got a letter from a corporate pilot a few weeks ago who told me he never flys his boss anywhere in their Kingair without the GPS2000 laying up on the glare shield looking at satilites out the window . . . he said it was the most accurate piece of navigation equipment in the cockpit! /As I am inclined to spend my hard earned money on /more important things (such as flying), the $600 - /$800 for a GPS has been 'out of the question' for me. /However, $200 sounds very reasonable for the features /you address in your article. Now, Wal-Mart stores stock them at $150 as the regular price and they were on sale here locally a few weeks ago for $138. /It is because of this I write to you to ask if your research /uncovered any speed limitations for the GPS2000? And /also: In what aircraft have you tested it? I've personally flown it in a few high wing Cessnas. I've loaned my own receiver out to an RV-6 pilot and a Bonanza pilot. Both reported good utility. NOW, remember that this little guy has to see sky . . . it can't mount on your control yoke and pretend like it's a big feller. In the Cessnas I've flown, I stuck a little patch of velcro on the cowl deck and put a mating piece on the bottom of my receiver. In this case, the receiver can set up where I can see the face all the time. In other rented ships, I just lay it face up on the cowl deck and pick it up from time to time to see what it says . . . it takes me more than 20 minutes to get lost so I don't need 100% heads-up service from the receiver display. Most important, since it's offered by Wal-Mart with a no-hassles return policy, go try it for yourself. It's a no-risk experiment. /Thank you very much, You're most welcom! Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========oOOo=(_)=oOOo========== | | | Go ahead, make my day . . . | | Show me where I'm wrong. | ================================= 72770.552(at)compuserve.com http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
> >I have a new 5hp Craftsman 33 gallon air compressor. It is EXTREMELY LOUD!! >My neighbors are starting to complain about my project (on wings now) amongst >themselves. They haven't approached me yet but I'm sure a petition is not >far behind. I only build between 8am-8pm usually on weekends and evenings. > I have the garage doors open to circulate the air (it's hot). Anybody >experience similar situations? Tips? Thanks in advance. > >Rob Miller >Cheetah N26256 >RV8 Wings > YES! I started this project out with a 5hp Sears. It was horrible. It blew a gasket just as I started the wings, it ran most of the time I was drilling. I fixed it, sold it. And bought an up right on a closing business sale. It is much much quieter and doesn't run much. I'm happier and so are the neighbors. I tried a enclosure with foam on the inside walls on the old one, helped alittle. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: Headsets
>Could anyone recommend a set that reproduces music well and also is >suitable for aviation use. >-- >Chet Razer >crazer(at)egyptian.net Chet, I've got a Flightcom intercom and Bose headsets. I really like the Bose set but the quality of music through the Flightcom is not very good. I also have a Telex headset, same problem so I assume the problem is in the intercom (or the way I hooked it up). One thing that I've done when flying by myself is using the little "bud" type earphones hooked up to a cassette player and worn under my aviation headset. This is a cheap ($5-10) alternative to someone who does not have a stereo headset or intercom and the sound is pretty good. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Roy_Vosberg(at)watsonwyatt.com (Roy Vosberg)
Subject: Air Compressors - the real poop
>I'm still suffering with the thing, but at least I was able to move it >to an adjacent room where it doesn't bother me too much. > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Compressors - the real poop My air compressor (Sears 4hp oilless) is also uncomfortably loud. I am considering making a cheap lightweight sound enclosure out of cardboard and Styrofoam or whatever I can find. The problem then will be overheating, so I will have to put a fan on it to move air through the enclosure. I have also thought about going to a computer junk dealer and see if I can get a old printer sound enclosure from a large mainframe printer. When I opened the enclosure of those printers it almost set my hair straight back. I thought it would do as well for my compressor (or vacuum, or generator) especially if it still has the cooling fans on it. Roy Vosberg South St.. Paul, MN roy_vosberg(at)watsonwyatt.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
From: lm4(at)juno.com (Larry Mac Donald)
Date: Apr 16, 1997
writes: > >I have a new 5hp Craftsman 33 gallon air compressor. It is EXTREMELY >LOUD!! Anybody experience similar situations? Rob Miller Cheetah N26256 RV8 Wings My 5 HP 25 Gal. Sears would make an abrahms tank sound quiet !!! Larry Mac Donald lm4(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil (Mike Wills)
Subject: Re: Hot Jet coatings
Gary, Have you done any measuring of under cowl temps? There are tape on temp sensors available that change color with heat and save the peak temp recorded. I used to have a Datsun 260Z with a Chevy 383ci V8, headers, all the typical hotrod stuff. Painting the headers with white VHT header paint reduced underhood temps about 20 degrees versus the standard black paint they came with. Presumably this would be great for any under-cowl plastic parts, not to mention the cowl itself. Probably would also be beneficial for anyone who has hot start/heat soak problems. Mike Wills RV-4(wings) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Congratulations and Thanks
aol.com!RV4131rb(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > Hawkeye, > I know this is a little off the subject, but you dont know where a guy could > pick up a set of plans for a skyote do you? > Ryan Bendure > RV4131RB(at)aol.com Please copy me on the answer as well! I love that plane. PatK ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
aol.com!RMille6453(at)matronics.com wrote: > > I have a new 5hp Craftsman 33 gallon air compressor. It is EXTREMELY LOUD!! > My neighbors are starting to complain about my project (on wings now) amongst > themselves. They haven't approached me yet but I'm sure a petition is not > far behind. I only build between 8am-8pm usually on weekends and evenings. > I have the garage doors open to circulate the air (it's hot). Anybody > experience similar situations? Tips? Thanks in advance. > I use my Sears compressor in my apartment. Yes, it is loud. However, the noise is almost inaudible in the hall outside, and the apartment above me says they can hear it but their central heat/air is louder. Thank heaven for government-built housing. :) Since the noise is intermittent and I only work during daylight hours, usually on weekends, my neighbors have not been unduly disturbed. I only use the compressor for riveting, so most of the time I make no noise that the neighbors can hear (except when I skin a knuckle). One other observation: as loud as the compressor is, rivetting is still louder. If you are using all air tools, it makes sense to look for a quieter compressor. Otherwise, it really makes no difference. PatK - RV-6A - Flap parts are back from the painter (you should hear his compressor.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RMI Monitor Building Tip
Denny Harjehausen wrote: > Chet, Did you purchase EGT and CHT probes from RMI? I am going to do a > small "Kitplane" project to see if I am up to an electronics assembler, then > order my RMI kits. Hey thanks for all these tips, they are great. The short > time I have been on the net I have gotten great tips. Lets keep it up. > > denny h. RV-6 Fuselage No Denny, I did not purchase the probes from RMI, In the back of the monitor installation manual or on at attached loose sheet Ron recommends the part number and source for the probes. I believe he lists Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. Wicks is just up the road a few minutes from home so I ordered the part number from them. When they arrived I discovered they were Westach parts. Also, I built both RMI kits and never owned a soldering iron before the job. the construction is simple and both units fired up the first time without a hitch. You should have no problems at all. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "anders " <anders.englov(at)mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:30:13 +0200
unsubscibe anders.englov(at)mailbox.swipnet.se ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Engine Overhaul Video
From: ron.taborek(at)flight642.com (RON TABOREK)
Date: Apr 16, 1997
I've just been going through a backlog of postings now that I'm back from Sun'n'Fun and I noticed many references to the need for an engine overhaul video and George Orndorf's intention to develop one. While at Sun'n'Fun I bought a video from SKYWARD TECH INC of SOUTHOLD NY entitled "The Aircraft Engine Rebuilding Process 0-320" for $69.95. It starts with the engine fully dissembled and shows step by step how it is assembled. It does not give details on tolerances, torques or lubication, referring the viewer to the manual. It does not do the disassembly of the engine, only the assembly. The work was done in the Mattituck Factory and the video closes with a Mattituck commercial. Versions for the 0-320 and the 0-200 were available. I've just viewed it for the first time and found it informative and well done. I now have some idea of what's inside the engine. One impression was how simple the engine is! The video seems to feel that with it, a person can reassemble an engine. This might just be correct if one had the proper tools, manuals, lubricants, miscellaneous parts and someone to turn to for advice from time to time. The first one would likely take a long time, but successive ones should be quite easy. Regrettfully, I cannot find any more about SKYWARD TECH from the tape or invoices I have. They were in the tent besides Van's, with Mattituck, I believe. Ron Taborek RV-4 Installing O-320 Toronto ron.taborek(at)flight642.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: catbird(at)taylortel.com (TTC Carroll A. Bird)
Subject: Re: RMI Monitor Building Tip
I am going to do a > small "Kitplane" project to see if I am up to an electronics assembler, then > order my RMI kits. > denny h. RV-6 Fuselage Denny, Don't sweat the RMI kits. I had never built anything electronic in my life, then I built a RMI encoder. The thing worked on the first try, it is still working over here behind me right now. Then a friend asked me to build him one. It was just the same as the first one. Then I built a Micro Monitor. With my experience with the two encoders. I had it built and in the hot box in three days. Just follow the assembly manual to the LETTER. Carroll Bird BTW radio has a small 3 amp 13.8Volt power supply on sale for $32.99 it is great for powering these instruments for the tests and shelf run. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Cheryl Sanchez <csanchez(at)world.std.com>
Subject: Electronic Ignition, 1/4-20 drilled bolts
First a question: Does anyone know where I can get some 1/4-20 drilled-head bolts? They should be 3/8" or 1/2" long. I want to use them to bolt on the plate for holding the timing sensors for my LSE ignition unit. This way I can safety wire them so they won't come loose. For now I am just using some screws. So what's with all this crying about drilling and tapping the engine case? I have to laugh at some of you guys who can build a whole airplane but choke over such a simple job! I drilled and tapped the front of my new and very expensive engine the other day. It was a piece of cake. To tell you the truth, I get more nervous running a spray paint gun. It only took me about two and a half hours. You can't get it located in the wrong place as it has little tabs that fit perfectly around the crankshaft. Ok, I'll admit it, I was pretty nervous when I first started thinking about it. When I heard about Jeff Rose's unit I called him to see if I could use his magneto hole sensing unit with my LSE system. But the answer was no. Later, when I heard that Klaus Savier had come out with such a sensor I called him too. His reply was that I would have to buy some new parts and it would cost me more. He also told me that the flywheel sensor is more accurate. I think it may be that there is enough lash in the accessory gears to reduce the accuracy a bit, but I'm not sure. Cheryl Sanchez csanchez(at)world.std.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Vincent S. Himsl" <himsl(at)mail.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective
builder Hello David, I just bought the RV-8 tail kit. I have experienced much of what you must be thinking. Don't know exactly when I'll finish it, but that I will finish it is a guarenteed promise I made to myself. Cleveland Tools are fine though I went with Avery. Scan the archives and the dialog on the internet and you'll find that the choice is primarily among two of the best. Belt Driven Compressor??? New one on me...I made sure mine wasn't, but not the point. A compressor of adequate power for your tools, gun,drill, sprayer; new or used; etc. Point is a compressor. Best advice from VAN's when I toured their operation was, "Don't forget primary objective is to build an airplane!" Startup problems: 1. Convincing my family that my hanger/shop (actually 2car garage) was no longer the local free mini-storage and cat litter box! Do you need a cat? 2. Winding down all supurflous activities that eat into my build time. Learning to say no. No easy task! 3. The mental 'tire kicking' before I concluded to go for it. Took years! 4. Dealing with the primer/paint logistics. Where? What system(s), etc. Still working on that one. Recommend: 1. George Orndorff(sp) Videos. The empenage is dated but it gives good idea of what to expect and a sigh of relief that you have the newer prepunched skins. The RV-8 Wings is/will be available soon. 2. Order The RV-6 preview plans. That really helped to give me the big picture. Also it has the jig details so you can start working on something. 3. The list and the RV-list archives <http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/search.htm>. I learned a lot in several days. 4. A demo ride in an RV-6, VAN's says the performance is similar to RV-8, seeing as their are only two of them! Will you finish? Beats me! I know I will finish! What will stop you and me? MONEY!! Biggest problem so far: That sheet metal flies when you open the garage door on a windy day! Moral, Secure the big pieces! Unknowns? Pretty much the whole project! But then, that's the adventure!!!! Good Luck Vince Himsl Moscow, ID RV-80296 Tail > >Hello, > >I am a first time builder - I havent ordered anything yet but am very >close. I know what tools to order (I think! - Cleaveland tools complete ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Robert Fritz <75303.1623(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
Message text written by INTERNET:rv-list(at)matronics.com >What I would like from the group is - What problems have you had? I need to really feel like I can finish the project before I purchase anything. I know I will love doing it but am afraid of some UNKNOWN problem that might totally stump me! (Is this feeling common?)< I've not driven a rivet yet either, but I did buy the Orndorff videos on empennage construction and aircraft sheetmetal tools. The bad news: very amateur. Somebody practicing a trumpet in the background, occasional shots of the television that's left on, George standing between the camera and the work, off-the-cuff discussions i.e., no script, too many shots of installing clecos and not enough of forming specific parts, camera too far out to see what's going on, out of focus, repeated statements of "put a cleco in EVERY hole" and then he doesn't do it .....etc. The good news: A couple of nice tips and it convinced me that I, too, can build an airplane. Worth the price just to assuage the anxiety. Maybe you should try it (the video). It's an RV-6 but what the heck, you're learning about the complexity of the undertaking, not supplanting the instructions, right? Go for it! I'm starting on the empennage next month. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com (Stephen Paul Johnson)
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
>What I would like from the group is - What problems have you had? I >need to really feel like I can finish the project before I purchase >anything. I know I will love doing it but am afraid of some UNKNOWN >problem that might totally stump me! (Is this feeling common?) > >Has everything gone together smoothly, as advertised? > >Are you on time with the company estimates of hours? Hi David, I am a first time builder and am very pleased with the way things are going. I have never spent a lot of time fixing things around the house, and never haunted the tool racks at the hardware store, but building the RV-8 is different because the motivation factor is so high. The easiest way to get a quick look at the process is to buy the Orndorff empennage video and see how it's done. By the time you finish the empennage if you decide to go ahead, you will know if you want to complete the project. Get involved with a local builder's group and try to spend the necessary funds on tools to start out. If you decide it isn't for you, you will be able to sell the specialized tools needed at very little discount over their price when new. It's hard for me to be objective about this, but the main thing I've learned is that, in my case, I enjoy the building process more than I thought I would. Steve Johnson RV-8 #80121 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Will it REALLY work ?????
z> ><72770.552(at)CompuServe.COM> >/In fact, the speed 100 knots was mentioned by more >/than one pilot as the maximum speed at which the >/boater GPS's would function properly. > >NOT TRUE witht the GPS2000 which tracks and displays >speeds through 500 kts. Yup... I have a Magellan GPS3000 which I know works fine up to 158 knots (the fastest groundspeed I've seen so far). A friend used it fine in the back of a 747 too. As Bob said, the 100 knot limit was a Garmin marketing ploy. I think/hope it has backfired on them -- the latest handheld Garmin 12XL does NOT have the speed limitation. >/As I am inclined to spend my hard earned money on >/more important things (such as flying), the $600 - >/$800 for a GPS has been 'out of the question' for me. >/However, $200 sounds very reasonable for the features >/you address in your article. > >Now, Wal-Mart stores stock them at $150 as the regular >price and they were on sale here locally a few weeks >ago for $138. The cheapies don't have all the features of the more expensive GPSs though. Notably the GPS2000 won't output to a computer/moving map/whatever. You can't upload waypoints/routes to the 3000 from a computer, so setting up for a trip is a bit of a pain. Beware that Magellan's accessory prices (external antenna, data output, power supply) are high... make sure that you compare the prices of GPSs when they have all the features you want. >From discussion on sci.geo.satellite-nav & personal experience, Magellan's QC & customer service are not great. IMHO, the expensive moving-map GPSs are a treadmill; you are locked into someone's system by the high cost of shifting to someone else's, and have to keep paying for the 6-monthly or annual map updates. They're nice feature if you're rich or someone else pays for your flying and toys, but not worth it to me. Given that the technology is very immature (just like computers), I think that you should only buy it if you actually need it *now*. Next year, there will be a better GPS for sale for about the same price. I think that the best hedge against this rapid obsolescence is to just buy the cheapest model that does what you need. (Cheap, Up-to-date, Features... choose any two). >I've personally flown it in a few high wing Cessnas. I've >loaned my own receiver out to an RV-6 pilot and a Bonanza >pilot. Both reported good utility. NOW, remember that >this little guy has to see sky . . . it can't mount on your >control yoke and pretend like it's a big feller. One trip, I duct-taped mine to the yoke (a rental 172 with a mount for a different brand GPS) and it worked adequately... lost lock occasionally, but picked it up again soon afterwards. Mostly, I do as you said and just leave the GPS on the dash and pick it up to read it. An external antenna would solve this... antenna on the dash, GPS clipped to the panel or yoke. Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: grihen(at)juno.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: RV6 Battery Location
While looking at RVs at S&F, I saw one RV6 that did not have the battery on the floor between the rudder pedals which really opened up that part of the aircraft. The owner was not around so I could not find out where the battery was located. It was not in the luggage compartment so I have to believe it was located behind the luggage compartment. Does anyone have any experience with alternate battery locations. I don't believe there is any way for it to go foreward of the firewall is there? Inputs appreciated, John Henley (grihen(at)juno.com) Starting on the canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: "Patrick E. Kelley" <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
David J. Fitzgerald wrote: > > I know I will love doing it but am afraid of some UNKNOWN > problem that might totally stump me! (Is this feeling common?) > The feeling is common, join the club. Nobody could start a project of this scope without some trepidation, except maybe one of the repeat offenders. However, no problem you meet is necessarily insurmountable. Look at the number of flying RVs there are; it must be possible. If you get stuck, yell to someone for help. > Has everything gone together smoothly, as advertised? > No. Ok, I'll expound a bit. Each plane is built a little differently, with different options, instruments, engine, prop, etc. Many things are beyond the scope of the manual, but almost certainly you will be able to get advice. Often too much of it. > Are you on time with the company estimates of hours? > You gotta be kidding. On guy built one in a month, others have taken years. As far as hours, depends on how fast/careful you are. It's a guideline. > Anything will be greatly appreciated - Thanks for the help You're welcome. Be sure to check out all the builder pages on the Web available from the RV-List page. Especially useful is John Hovan's page; the others, like mine, tend to be project diaries - interesting, good for morale, but not as informative. Sorry to any authors who I've slighted. Welcome, and best of luck. PatK - RV-6A - http://ic.net/~patk/rv6a.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: spar attach
I am replacing the rear spar attach points in the fuselage and on the wings of a -4 because the bolt hole edge clearance not enough. I called van's today and asked what was acceptable for these spar attach points and the man I spoke to said 5/8" edge tolerance for the 5/16 holes. I started thinking about it and the bar the rear spar attach point is made from is only 1.5" wide to start with. A 5/16" hole with 10/16 edge clearance on top and bottom equals 25/16 (1-11/16"). So, did I misunderstand something here? Is the flat bar not wide enough to begin with? Even if the wing incidence angle is perfect when the spar attach points are lined up to be drilled there won't be enough edge clearance. What do I do if the wing point and the fuselage point don't line up perfectly before I am ready to drill them? Can anyone answer this please? I'm sure glad I decided to pull the wings off to check this stuff. Thanks in advance to answers. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: mauser(at)claris.com (Richard Chandler)
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
> > >What I would like from the group is - What problems have you had? I > >need to really feel like I can finish the project before I > >purchase anything. I know I will love doing it but am afraid of > >some UNKNOWN problem that might totally stump me! (Is this > >feeling common?) As long as there is an RV-Builders list, there is no such thing as being stumped. Only temporarily delayed while waiting for an answer. Use the time to read a different section of the plans. -- Richard Chandler RV-6: Garage bought and being finished, saving for tools and tail kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder
David J. Fitzgerald wrote: > > > Hello, > > I am a first time builder - I havent ordered anything yet but am very > close. I know what tools to order (I think! - Cleaveland tools complete > airframe kit) - I know to get a belt drive compressor - > > What I would like from the group is - What problems have you had? I > need to really feel like I can finish the project before I purchase > anything. I know I will love doing it but am afraid of some UNKNOWN > problem that might totally stump me! (Is this feeling common?) > > Has everything gone together smoothly, as advertised? > > Are you on time with the company estimates of hours? > > Anything will be greatly appreciated - Thanks for the help David, don't wait, order the tail kit and the day it arrives order the wing kit. Lead times on kits are notoriously long when you don't have anything to work on. Get a Cleavland Aircraft Tools Cataloge and an Averys cataloge, they have most all the specialty tools you need. There are no hidden problems. I would guess 99% of the guys using the RV list are first time builders and many like myself have NO metal work experience. Watch the list and keep good files on various topics for reference later. Some use the archives but there's a lot of extraneous stuff there and searching takes a lot of time. Subscribe to the RVator and a couple of local RV group newsletters. Jim Cone, who is also on the list writes a good newsletter as do may others. I'm familiar with Jims since I subscribe to it. The biggest pitfall IMHO is getting bogged down thinking about the size of the complete project. Just charge ahead and think "one piece at a time". Eventually the small pieces become large one and then the large ones go to gether to make an airplane. Get going, every day you delay is one less day you have to fly your own bird. -- Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: UFOBUCK(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re: Headsets
Let me recommend those wanting ANR without the cost of Bose contacting Headsets,Inc. at 1.800.876.3374 in Amarillo, Texas. These people have an add-on circuit for most popular headsets for under $200. B.Clary RV6A N75TX flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net (Chris Brooks)
Date: Apr 16, 1997
Subject: Re:spar attach
Michael, I know this sounds cunfusing but minimum edge distances are given from the center of the hole not the edge. On a 5/16" hole the min. distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the tab should be 15/32" if you are using 2xdia. min. Chris Brooks BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bumflyer(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 17, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-List:Seat height on RV-6
This has been bugging me for a couple years. I noticed at a fly in that someone had shortened the seat backs on their RV-6, to where it was barely over the top of the bulkhead it rests against. I sat in it and felt that it was the same to my back as the 'stock' one. The extra height seems to serve no purpose. I noted it was easier to sit on the seat back while getting in or out, and was handier for 'over the top' access to the baggage compartment. It also didn't hit the control stick as bad when you tilted it forward. I can see no significant disadvantage to shortening except you would have to have D J make your cushions shorter. What do you -6 builders and flyers think of this? Why did Van make them so long in the first place? Has anyone tried it and not liked it? The world wonders. Hold off on grousing about lawyers and let's hear your opinion! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: RV6 Battery Location
> >While looking at RVs at S&F, I saw one RV6 that did not have the battery >on the floor between the rudder pedals which really opened up that part >of the aircraft. The owner was not around so I could not find out where >the battery was located. It was not in the luggage compartment so I have >to believe it was located behind the luggage compartment. Does anyone >have any experience with alternate battery locations. I don't believe >there is any way for it to go foreward of the firewall is there? > >Inputs appreciated, > >John Henley (grihen(at)juno.com) >Starting on the canopy > John, I know of a few -6's with the battery in the baggage area. What I was told is that they located it there due to weight & balance problem needs. They were swinging CS props. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: spar attach
The edge clearance is measured from the hole centre not the hole edge. LD > >I am replacing the rear spar attach points in the fuselage and on the >wings of a -4 because the bolt hole edge clearance not enough. I called >van's today and asked what was acceptable for these spar attach points >and the man I spoke to said 5/8" edge tolerance for the 5/16 holes. I >started thinking about it and the bar the rear spar attach point is made >from is only 1.5" wide to start with. A 5/16" hole with 10/16 edge >clearance on top and bottom equals 25/16 (1-11/16"). So, did I >misunderstand something here? Is the flat bar not wide enough to begin >with? Even if the wing incidence angle is perfect when the spar attach >points are lined up to be drilled there won't be enough edge clearance. >What do I do if the wing point and the fuselage point don't line up >perfectly before I am ready to drill them? Can anyone answer this >please? I'm sure glad I decided to pull the wings off to check this >stuff. Thanks in advance to answers. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 1997
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)hcds.net>
Subject: Re: Air Compressors - the real poop
aol.com!RMille6453(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > I have a new 5hp Craftsman 33 gallon air compressor. It is EXTREMELY LOUD!! > My neighbors are starting to complain about my project (on wings now) amongst > themselves. Build a box with plenty of air louvers. Line the box with sound deadening material such as seat cushen foam. The important thing to remember is to give plenty of cooling air. place the box over the compressor and it will be tons more quite. Gary Zilik RV-6A s/n 22993 Starting on fuse. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: spar attach
> >I am replacing the rear spar attach points in the fuselage and on the >wings of a -4 because the bolt hole edge clearance not enough. I called >van's today and asked what was acceptable for these spar attach points >and the man I spoke to said 5/8" edge tolerance for the 5/16 holes. I >started thinking about it and the bar the rear spar attach point is made >from is only 1.5" wide to start with. A 5/16" hole with 10/16 edge >clearance on top and bottom equals 25/16 (1-11/16"). The measurement is taken from the centre of the hole. This is one place where van should supply a little extra material. A 2" piece of flat bar would be better. Tom Martin RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-List:Seat height on RV-6
43-45,47-48
From: gasobek(at)juno.com (Gary A. Sobek)
Date: Apr 17, 1997
This subject will get lots of different responses. My seats are standard. I have one friend who cut his seat backs down to better get into the baggage compartment and recommends doing it. Another friend says leave them standard for they support you back better in HIGH G maneuvers and aerobatics. To me they feel better standard length. Another friend who is vertically challenged cut his since the short seat back felt better. IMHO, I try to stick to the plans and see no reason to change. I believe that there is no better way just different ways. Please remember that all responses are OPINIONS and if there are any facts, a source will be given credit. Gary A. Sobek Electrical AeroSPACE Engineer "I do not screw with other engineers designs since I do not like my designs screwed with." RV-6 20480 N-157GS FAA Licensed A & P writes: > >This has been bugging me for a couple years. I noticed at a fly in that >someone had shortened the seat backs on their RV-6, to where it was barely >over the top of the bulkhead it rests against. I sat in it and felt that it >was the same to my back as the 'stock' one. The extra height seems to serve >no purpose. I noted it was easier to sit on the seat back while getting in >or out, and was handier for 'over the top' access to the baggagecompartment. It also didn't hit the control stick as bad when you tilted it forward. I can see no significant disadvantage to shortening except you >would have to have D J make your cushions shorter. > >What do you -6 builders and flyers think of this? Why did Van make them so >long in the first place? Has anyone tried it and not liked it? > >The world wonders. Hold off on grousing about lawyers and let's hear your >opinion! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROY HARRILL" <KHarrill(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV6 Battery Location
Date: Apr 17, 1997
John, There were two 6's with batteries mounted in the engine compartment. They used a battery that is "thinner" and rated at about 17AH. B & C carries such a battery. It sure opens up the cabin floor! I plan to try this when I get that far. Regards, Ken Harrill RV - 6, wings ---------- > From: Denny Harjehausen <proaxis.com!retflygtiger(at)matronics.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV6 Battery Location > Date: Thursday, April 17, 1997 1:10 AM > > > > > >While looking at RVs at S&F, I saw one RV6 that did not have the battery > >on the floor between the rudder pedals which really opened up that part > >of the aircraft. The owner was not around so I could not find out where > >the battery was located. It was not in the luggage compartment so I have > >to believe it was located behind the luggage compartment. Does anyone > >have any experience with alternate battery locations. I don't believe > >there is any way for it to go foreward of the firewall is there? > > > >Inputs appreciated, > > > >John Henley (grihen(at)juno.com) > >Starting on the canopy > > > John, I know of a few -6's with the battery in the baggage area. What I > was told is that they located it there due to weight & balance problem > needs. They were swinging CS props. > > denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: rear spar attach
Thanks to those who responded. Measuring from the center makes a good difference. I was using Jethro Bodine ciphering when i said 25/16 = 1 11/16". I should have said 1-9/16". Anyways, has anyone ever run into the problem of the rear spar attach points not lining up closely enough when the when incidence angle was adjusted properly? What would one do in a case like that? Maybe I should attach the rear spar attach points (wing to fuselage) first, adjust the incidence, then rivet the center section into the fuselage. I'm just re-doing someone else's mistake now, but, I want it right cause I'll be doing the other one in a couple months and I want it perfect. And as safe as possible. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 17, 1997
Subject: Installing a Jeff Rose EI
Bob Skinner and I are in the process of installing ElectroAir Electronic Ignitions on our RV-6's. Bob got his before me so I asked for some installation tips. I think others can benifit from Bob's experience. Thanks Bob. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ << Gary, The installation wasn't much of a problem. I did have to remove my oil/air separator in the upper left part of the firewall (facing firewall.) The mounting block for the electronics has 1/4" holes. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably bush them to 3/16". I put a .040" plate under the unit to try & stiffen the firewall. It would be best to rivet this to the firewall with flush rivets, but what a pain. I just bolted it on. The stainless is a little "wobbly". I'm sure if the .040" would have been riveted the installation would be a little more solid. The timing unit that fits into the right mag hole is easy to install. You will need the clamps that Slick uses (clamps on flange) to attach the "mag" unit. You take off the mag gear and install in on the new unit. You put the engine on TDC, put the unit in the hole and rotate the unit until the index tool that you insert through a hole in the case enters a hole on the internal rotating part. Tighten the clamps and you're in business. It's not in the instructions but I believe that it was Jeff Rose that suggested using REM37BY plugs, which look like auto plugs. The plugs used on the EI are gapped .030-.035". The ones on top (mag fired) are gapped .015-.019. You splice into the manifold pressure line. I just got the 2d "T" fitting today and will finish the hookup tommorrow. There's a few other things involved. The instructions aren't the best. A couple of calls to Jeff made things clearer. I've barely run the engine but it did run. I hope to fly tommorrow and give it a test. If you think the above would be of interest to the list you can forward it. Regards, Bob >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dougweil(at)pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: Twin Cities RV Forum
Date: Apr 17, 1997
Fellow Listers: Just a final last reminder regarding the changes to the Twin Cities RV Forum. As I mentioned, this event was officially cancelled due to the floods but any RV'ers are still invited to our gathering at Anoka County Airport at 10 am on Saturday April 19. If the weather is good we can expect several other RV's in attendance. Coffee and donuts will be served!! I just talked with Bill Benedict and he is about to leave Florida and will be our guest (Bill is now bringing the #1 RV-8). Bill will also be our guest speaker for our evening banquet at the Country Inn in Woodbury, MN. For details and directions, email or call me Doug Weiler, MN Wing dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com 715-386-1239 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: pmbs(at)probe.att.com
Date: Apr 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Engine Overhaul Video
Perhaps George could get one of these videos and add the engine takedown to their buildup, as well as add to the quality/quantity of information presented in his overall video.....quite a challenge George!! Paul Bilodeau pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com 908-957-6611 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)navix.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Seat height on RV-6
>This has been bugging me for a couple years. I noticed at a fly in that >someone had shortened the seat backs on their RV-6, to where it was barely >over the top of the bulkhead it rests against. > >What do you -6 builders and flyers think of this? Why did Van make them so >long in the first place? Has anyone tried it and not liked it? Dear ???, I shortened my seat backs to make it easier to reach into the baggage compartment. I have experienced no problems and would do it again. Also, even though I fabricated the "seat angle adjusters" I don't use them. I just rest the seat on the cross piece. Bob Skinner RV-6 BSkinner(at)navix.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: rear spar attach
> >Thanks to those who responded. Measuring from the center makes a good >difference. I was using Jethro Bodine ciphering when i said 25/16 = 1 >11/16". I should have said 1-9/16". Anyways, has anyone ever run into >the problem of the rear spar attach points not lining up closely enough >when the when incidence angle was adjusted properly? What would one do >in a case like that? Maybe I should attach the rear spar attach points >(wing to fuselage) first, adjust the incidence, then rivet the center >section into the fuselage. I'm just re-doing someone else's mistake >now, but, I want it right cause I'll be doing the other one in a couple >months and I want it perfect. And as safe as possible. Thanks > I have asked about incidence problems when was have fuselage F605 location problems and was told by Tom Green that I wanted to get the right angel on the F605 or I would be "in a world of hurt". He did mention that some adjustment can be made to the Horizonal Stablizer to correct for earlier boo boo's. He pointed out that it is in the manual somewhere. I measured forty times, and I hope it was forty of the same mistakes. We'll see, the moment of truth is approaching. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Battery Location
I was under the impression that putting the battery in the engine compartment was considered nto so good. Have -6s experienced problems? Tony Bingelis's book, "Engines", I believe mentions this as potenial battery problems. I think he mention lead-acid should be used if the battery is located there. Robert Nuckolls, III could give us facts instead of just me parroting experts. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <retflygtiger(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Auto spark plugs & leads
Any listners out there have experience with "Auto Sparkplugs and Leads"? There was a mention sometime back of the use of these but no comments I have check in the archives, but didn't find anything. I believe the last comment was by Robert Nuckolls,III. Also the "Trim Switch" discussion about dual switches. The planes I flew for most of my career had this dual switch arrangement. It was a preflight check of the control system. I have been looking for this type of switch for my electric elevator trim. They were two switches in one, about as wide as your thumb located on the wheel. Push both switches up-trim nose down/ pull down nose up. Release either sw., trimming should stop. I have check local electronic stores and cataloges like Mouser and no luck? Any of you electronic guys know where to look for this type of switch? The switch is probably are one of those "not cost effective" items. I'm beginning to think I should have stuck to all manual trim. I did revert back to manual Flaps. denny h. RV-6 Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 1997
From: Don McNamara <mcnamara(at)sbt.infi.net>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Questions from a first time prospective builder

April 09, 1997 - April 17, 1997

RV-Archive.digest.vol-cs