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RV-Archive.digest.vol-dx
December 17, 1997 - December 21, 1997

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From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Alternator options
<< Meanwhile, anyone have the phone # for Mr.Landoll >> Be warned, his stuff works but workmanship is as crude as an aircraft engine... Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "J.C. Hassall" <jhassall(at)ipass.net>
Subject: Re: build your own engine
[...] > Bottom line IMO is if somebody wanted to build a liquid cooled direct drive >engine that is optimized for aircraft use, it needs to be designed from the >ground up with that application in mind. > >Mike Wills >RV-4 (wings done, saving for fuse) >willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil This is not intended as a flame. Anyone seriously interested in auto conversions ought to subscribe to Contact!, a bi-monthly devoted to this thread. In issue #40 there was an article on using the Corvette LT-1 in a 4-place Lancair. Bottom line: marine engines are designed for application similar to ours: hi power output for extended periods, hi vibration and temps. The author detailed his entire thought/design process, including hi-perf replacement parts, as he arrived at his decision. Of course, the LT-1 is much too heavy for RV use, but the thought process in the article is very interesting. He included vendor references at the end. E-mail Mick Myal (editor) at contact1(at)flash.net. (I'm just a very satisfied subscriber.) J.C. Hassall RV-6 Builder Wannabe mailto:jhassall(at)ipass.net Blacksburg VA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <James.E.Clark(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Dec 17, 1997
---------- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Batteries > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:39 PM > > > > >NiCads also eventually run out. > > > I'd forgotten to mention that . . . thanks for reminding me. [stuff deleted] > >safely to SC (CAE), but of all times I get vectors around lots of > >commercial traffic. Finally, after landing, during taxi, the batteries in > >the GPS also give out. > > What form of active notification do you have for alternator failure? > Most pilots don't know the alternator has rolled over until after > the battery runs down. With timely, active notification, and some Nothing that was *obvious*. I have since added an EI digital volt/ammeter. My first indication that something *might* be wrong was noise in my headset. Except though, my co-pilot did not hear anything so we dismissed it as me being too picky. The giveaway was when I tried to transmit and was told that my radio sounded like garbage at best. I am thinking about what I want in the RV to **actively** notify me. [stuff deleted] > >By the way, the GPS is normally powered from the aircraft but I have had > >cases of the power contact not being made well and my running off batteries > >when I thought I was on aircraft power. [Garmin GPSmap 195] If not caught, > >I could have proceeded into a situation **thinking** I had (new/fresh) > >battery power when I didn't. > > See my post elsewhere for RELIABLE panel mounted connection between > hand held goodies and the airplane's electrical systems. Cigar lighter > sockets were designed about 60 years ago for lighting cigars, not > powering GPS receivers. Actually the fault here was in the Garmin cradle and my not looking to see if the little battery icon was showing after powering up. The cigaretted lighter connection worked (in this case). I did see that article somewhere and will probably make use of same. James RV6AQB ... wings closed. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
>> >> What form of active notification do you have for alternator failure? >> Most pilots don't know the alternator has rolled over until after >> the battery runs down. With timely, active notification, and some > >Nothing that was *obvious*. I have since added an EI digital volt/ammeter. >My first indication that something *might* be wrong was noise in my >headset. Except though, my co-pilot did not hear anything so we dismissed >it as me being too picky. The giveaway was when I tried to transmit and was >told that my radio sounded like garbage at best. I am thinking about what I >want in the RV to **actively** notify me. GREAT! I've been reading through a series of accident and incident reports where electrical system failure either precipitated or contributed to the story. The vast majority of pilots reporting system problems didn't know the alternator had quit until the battery had run down . . . powering lots of useful things like nav lights, strobes, a panel full of lights and sundry instrumentation that is handy to have but not critical . . . If you know within seconds that the alternator is not doing it's job, the probability of a happy ending to the tale goes up 10-fold or more. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Young <gyoung(at)bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: RV-8 Gross wt q's
Date: Dec 17, 1997
> > Another "simpler" explanation is that with higher weight the wing stalls at > higher airspeed which means that it will stall out and relieves the load on > the wing before it breaks. Ed Your "simpler" explanation is the right approach. The issue is lift coefficients. For a given airspeed, a higher GW will need a higher CL. The difference between that CL and the max CL is what can generate the G's. Assuming you're on the linear portion of the lift curve, the maneuvering speed would be proportional to GW, assuming similar pitch rates. Gee, do we also want to consider what happens at aft CG vs forward CG? The possible pitch >>rate<< will normally increase at aft CG, permitting a much faster change in CL and G's. That's why aerobatic CG envelopes are normally further forward than for utility or normal ops. This may not have much effect on an RV since they're pretty nimble at any CG. Any current aero dynamicists want to take a crack at the combined effect? Greg Young RV-6 skinning fuselage (out of jig by Christmas, I hope!) eroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: build your own engine
Hi, Kevin asked why has no one taken a V-8 block and matched the stroke and cam timing of a Lycoming to yield a similar torque and output at 2900rpms. First, let's consider the business issue. There would be no profit in it. Too much risk for too little reward. Even without liability issues, I doubt that it would pay off. It looks as though the goal is to produce a less expensive engine by using mass produced automotive parts. Standard auto parts are less expensive than standard aircraft parts but they are not really up to aircraft standards either, at least in some sense. For example, the crankshaft in the Lyc is (I 'm told) 4340 steel while in the Chevy V6 & even the Corvette is nodular cast iron which is good stuff and much cheaper. It is half the strength of 4340, however. At the same time, the V engine cranks are quite short and so need less strength. I was quoted $1500 for a 5140 crank for V6 which is cheaper than 4340 & only a few percent less strong. My ideal V6 for my RV6A will cost about $10,000 without PSRU, mount radiator etc. Almost nothing in it will be stock Chevy! Even with those add ons the total will be half the Lyc. It may come out heavier than an O320 but, with the aluminum block, probably lighter than an IO-360 with CS prop. And it will put out at least 225hp while having strong enough components to go up to 280hp. Don't use full throttle below 8000 feet where it will give you 75% or about 170hp. So it could be done for less money if the PSRU route is chosen but you want direct drive. To use direct non-PSRU drive would impse heavy penalities. The crank would have to be longer thru the front bearing to support prop loading. The block would have to be different to hold that crank. Then, RPM's would be limited to 2/3 of full use cutting hp. So the engine would have to be larger and heavier. At the same time it would have to have the same weight. Weight can be reduced by using fewer piston-rod-part of crankshaft & camshaft etc etc. but that would increase vibration. More power pulses in one rev means less torsional vibration which means less airframe damage, crankshaft breakage, parts dropping off etc. Oops - I was going to talk business aspect. Today, a person who set out to manufacture and sell *ANY* new small aircraft engine would be risking a large investment for a small gain and huge liability exposure. The aircraft engine business has been in a nose dive for several years. Now the companies are just milking the cow - when the machinery wears completely out they'll probably shut down. Too much risk for too little reward. To improve the rewards, they'd probably have to charge more than Lyc or Con. In our market, the experimentals, they would be competing with LyCon, auto engine conversions, & a variety of funny little companies who know more about engines than business. Okay it is my opinion. Old time engines *ALL* ran slow because precision manufacture and materials weren't available to make high speed engines. Japan changed that. Honda air cooled motorcycles ran above 10,000 RPM when I started my dealership in 1963! RPM is the easiest way to get more power. How would you design the ideal light weight engine capable of producing continous high power if you started from scratch? Ask Mr. Soichiro Honda. Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- "Peace on earth, good will to all RV builders" halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Dec 18, 1997
> ---------- > From: James E. Clark[SMTP:James.E.Clark(at)worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 6:38 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Batteries > > > > Nothing that was *obvious*. I have since added an EI digital > volt/ammeter. > My first indication that something *might* be wrong was noise in my > headset. Except though, my co-pilot did not hear anything so we > dismissed > it as me being too picky. The giveaway was when I tried to transmit > and was > told that my radio sounded like garbage at best. I am thinking about > what I > want in the RV to **actively** notify me. Why doesn't anyone wire alarms into their audio circuit? It's very easy to do, all it needs is a cheap battery powered oscillator circuit if your panel alarms don't have an audio output, and an accept button to cancel it. With noise cancelling headsets this is absolutely essential as is some thing like a master caution light if you don't like headsets. > [stuff deleted] > > James > RV6AQB ... wings closed. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Gross wt q's
Message text written by INTERNET:rv-list(at)matronics.com > I am currently flying an Arrow(T-tail) and the manual says that the manuevering speed at max gross wt(2750 lbs) is 121K, but at 1863 lbs it is reduced to 96K?< In simple terms: Manuevering speed (Va) ensures that the aircraft will stall before it bends. Since the aircraft will stall at a lower speed when it is light, the Va must be lowered sccordingly. If you exceed these speeds, the design load will be exceeded without stalling the aircraft and it will bend. For further info look at a Vg diagram in a comercial pilot or CFI instruction book. Scott A. Jordan ATP, CFI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Tim Bronson <70773.2700(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GYROS
>> "let Joe do it" >> (I think that's what the ol' salts called the autopilot). >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> Your Wrong!! Being an old salt I can tell you it's called "GEORGE" Only partially correct. In the newer "high-tech" aircraft such as the Fokker 100, etc., "George has been re-named "Hal" for the resemblance to the computer in "2001 - A Space Odyssey" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "taborek" <taborek(at)pathcom.com>
Subject: Fuel Switching Reminder
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Those of you who might like an aid to remembering when to switch fuel tanks might be interested in a circuit published by Greg Heckman in Sport Aviation of November 1992, page 100. For $13 (he says) of Radio Shack bits he shows how to make a LED flash every 30 or 60 minutes until you acknowledge it. Its neat. I plan to build one once I get flying. ron.taborek(at)flight642.com RV-4 Installing O-320 Toronto ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: GYROS
Date: Dec 18, 1997
All the replies I have seen on this list assume a loss of electrical power was due to an alternator failure. What do you do in the event the failure is a short on the essential power bus or a battery failure? In the event of a battery failure the alternator cannot operate as it has no field excitation. (The unfiltered output of the alternator bounces to much to be used for this and most manufacturers interlock the battery master with the alternator to prevent the alternator being used if the battery is off.) Their a ways to fix this but they don't seem to appear in this thread. (This is where a vacuum system is useful as a standby for the electrical system.) A short on the essential bus ( which you have insulated haven't you) will take out all your plans unless you have another system. (Don't laugh it has happened to a number of Boeing airliners to my knowledge) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
Jim, I ordered the vetterman crossover exhause and one heat muff from Rick Robins. Its a close fit but it will fit, I installed mine on the right side exhaust stack close to the end. Also used a robins carb heat muff which fits very nicely between the starter ring gear and carb inlet on either of the two crossover pipes. Its all on an 0360 from Van and on my 6A. The installation of all three units was very simple and I think you would have to do a LOT of R/D work to improve on those three units. -- Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F Mark40 <FMark40(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: MAC servo speed control
> Ya know, the owner of this list makes a fine MAC servo speed control.... Good point. Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6 <RICKRV6(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
Jim, I used two Robbin's heat muffs on my Vetterman crossover. I used the offset muffs to clear the bottom of the -6 cowl. I used two in series because in the CHI area one (even with wrapped springs) wasn't enough. Two worked great. Rick McBride RV-6 N523JC gone RV-8 80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Primer, Primer who's got the Primer
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Me thinketh that the Maine Sherwin Williams representative ought to speak to the Vermont representative. The local shop continues to deny the existence of the stuff. I'd buy a case if I had to. Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Micro progress on the project while I toil away at my day job. -----Original Message----- And then the Sherwin Williams rep spake, "The GBP-988 cometh in aerosol spray cans only. Buyeth them by the case and rejoice in lower unit cost." And the RV-builder whineth, "Can't I get it in a can?" What do you guys thinketh? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: mauser(at)claris.com (Richard Chandler)
Subject: Re: RE: Flight Restrictions
> >However, an experimental aircraft should not sight-see or looter over > >any populated area. ^^^^^^ Which means you can't throw bricks through store windows from your RV and land to make off with a new VCR. :-) -- Richard Chandler RV-6: Garage bought and being finished, saving for tools and tail kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Austin Tinckler" <tinckler(at)axionet.com>
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
Date: Dec 17, 1997
---------- > From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com> the Rick Robbins heat muffs. I'm assuming those are the > single inlet/outlet high quality ones produced by a friend of Vetterman's. > What exhaust system did you use? I'm about to order the crossover > type; but, I may be ordering the wrong ones if I order the Robbins > muffs. Decide what type of exhaust you want to order, then order your muff from Robbins accordingly. He is well familiar with the different options and will fabricate to suit. Quality is without peer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JimNolan(at)mail.kconline.com
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: altenator options
Here's my two cents. I've used Mark Landoll altenator for over 600 hrs and never had a minutes trouble with it. I know new factory airplanes that didn't make it that long on a certified altenator. I also use his harmonic balancer with the extra ring gear weight. I've had those items for approximately 500 hrs. with absolutly no problems. My battery is five years old and as of yesterday it still doing an outstanding job. I don't know if Marks altenator has anything to do with it but apparently it hasn't hurt it any. Keep up the good work Mark, I like your prices also. Jim Nolan N444JN Warsaw, In ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Flyinghi(at)worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Battery
Date: Dec 17, 1997
---------- > From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:11 PM > > Mark: I'm interested in your reply to Gary concerning the battery cables. I am also preparing to do this. How did you get past the seat floors, spars, etc. I can get under the floors up to the seats, then I am lost as how to get to the foward floor. My 6A has a false floor in the front so I can also pass under that up to the firewall. Also, I'm not amiliar with a bulkhead connector for the firewall. Where do we acquire this item. Thanks for any help. Charles N609CG 6A Mounting engine, working on panel > > Gary: > The Rocket battery (Concorde RG-25XC) is located in the baggage area, just fwd > of the #8 blkhd. We mount the master sol as close as possible the the batt, > usually near the elev bellcrank. We run #4 cable under the floor, and use a > bulkhead connector at the firewall. The starter sol mounts under the floor, > aft of the spar, AWAY from the (possibly leaking) fuel boost pump and selector > valve. Mount the starter sol horizontal, so any strong "G" won't energize it. > > Visualize that first test flight..... > > Check six! > Mark > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: altenator options
> My battery is > five years old and as of yesterday it still doing an outstanding job. Was yesterday it's death day? After years of struggling with jumper cables and push starts (even hand crank starts with my MG) I decided to care for batteries and jerk them out when the warranty is up. I do this with the Debonair (2 year Concords?) but is it really necessary? Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- "Peace on earth, good will to all RV builders" halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Wing root mounting of Gascolator
Ron, I recall reading that Steve Bernard mounted his pump right below the fuel selector valve, so that might be an optional location to consider. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA ---------- From: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com on behalf of Ronald Vandervort Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 11:53 PM Subject: RV-List: Wing root mounting of Gascolator After much head scratching, layout work, and talking also with Eustace Bowhay, I have concluded that to mount the gascolator in the wing root requires mounting the boost pump on the firewall. Of course the little Facet pump we buy from Van's can not be mounted in the engine compartment ( too high of a temperature environment). My question then is what pumps are out there that can be used as a boost pump mounted on the firewall in the engine compartment? Aircraft Spruce has an interupter style pump that they say is used on some Pipers without antisiphon feature. That probably would be Ok. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank You, Ron Vandervort, RV-6Q Seattle area ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WmSH <WmSH(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Experimental Video
Great Idea. Go for it. I think such a package would save folks enough time and effort to justify the ~ $25 cost. I know I would buy the package. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic w Stucklen)
writes: >I am interested in such a system for my RV-6. Someone (maybe MAC) was >working on a module that interfaced with a pot on the panel and a >position feedback pot on the flap linkage. The module was to contain >the parts and electronic switches to run the flap actuator to the >position commanded by the panel pot. Please let me know what you think >as to the feasibility and cost of such a design. >Mike Talley RV-6 skinning the second wing Mike, I played with a similar idea today, but it used position switches on the flap servo mechanism, positioned at the positions where you would want the flaps to stop. This results in a full up position, and three others, one of which was full down. LED's on the panel would show the current flap position, and would light when that position was obtained. To activate the flaps, the panel mounted flap position switch would be aligned opposite the desired LED position. The controller would controll the flap motor and be capable od sensing that a switch had failed (because the motor ran longer than the allotted time). The LED's would ALWAYS show actual flap position. This design also has an audio (voice and/or beep & bops) output to the audio panel, giving vebally flap position and failure warnings. The downside would be the need for a ten wire harness (ribbon cable??) back to the panel. I like the idea that everything is digital, but not the excess of wires in the harnes. An analog position interface would cut down on the number of wires, but increase the cost of the electronics. I'll continue to look at this some more to see if I can come up with a low cost, but safe design..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on second RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)roxanne.llnl.gov (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Test, Ignore...
Test... Ignore. Matt -- Matt G. Dralle Internet LAN/WAN Communications Specialist Open LabNet | Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 7000 East Ave | PO Box 808 | L-267 | Livermore | California | 94550 510-422-4896 - Voice | 510-422-2425 - FAX | dralle(at)llnl.gov - Email ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533 <MAlexan533(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: RV4 Rollbar
No, after much research on the matter of embrittlement, I determined this was not a problem on the rollbar, because of its size and anticipated load. However, I was going to also chrome the flap actuation bar, but went with paint instead, because this is such a critical, high-use part with small welds. MAlexan533(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: " Benim" <benim(at)icomnet.com>
Subject: Re: Timed tanks
Date: Dec 17, 1997
After reading the below I wonder if perhaps a poorly fitted fuel cap (left) could have caused enough pressure imbalance to caused what Gordon observed. Reflecting on the posts concerning leak checking fuel tanks this condition may be common. Bob: I have not worked on the crossflow problem enough to explain it. I can really only describe what I observed. My fuel system differs from standard in three ways. I have a selector from a large single engine Cessna. It includes a U-jointed extension for the handle which enabled mounting the valve in about the stock location but level with the tank outlets. Since I did not want pressure fuel in the cockpit I put the Facet pump on the firewall (forward side) piped to pump parallel with the engine driven pump to the carb. Fuel lines were curved to prevent them pulling out of the fittings but everything was kept in the same plane. The left tank has a flop tube. That tank outlet is about level with the regular outlet but is in the nose of the inboard rib per plans. The associated pretzel pipe that evades the tank to fuselage attach fitting leads back and enters the fuselage where the regular supply line would. When I did fuel flow tests (nose high) the electric pump delivered about 10% more fuel from the right tank than it did from the left (~32gph vs. ~29gph). The tank vents are located according to plans with 1/4" aluminum pitots. They are as near to identical as I could make them. I tried the both position on a cross country flight when both tanks had ullage, the right being down a bit more than the left. Estimate the unfilled volume the the left tank to be about 3 gallons. Level flight cruise, as well coordinated as I could do it. Probably not perfect. The "both" position was selected and as the flight progressed after a few minutes the right fuel gauge seemed to go down more rapidly than usual and in about 20 minutes fuel was observed streaming back from the left wing filler cap. Some fuel was going overboard at the trailing edge and some was flowing inboard at the flap gap. The flap hinge line is sealed but the ends are not sealed. At this point the selector was moved to the Left tank and within a couple of minutes the flow across the wing stopped. I have no way to know if fuel exited via the left tank vent but I doubt if it did. There are no firm conclusions here but there are some thoughts: 1) The fuel system is not mechanically symmetrical. 2) We don't know that the local pressures at the vent pitots are the same. 3) The aircraft may have been slightly uncoordinated although I did make an effort to avoid that. 4) The maximum head pressure differential that could exist in the system (one tank empty, the other full) is about 7"wc. That condition was not present in the test. The test differential was probably in the order of 1.5"wc. This differential should have opposed the actual flow. One could speculate that a common vent, symmetrical fuel system and perfectly coordinated flight would enable pumping from both tanks successfully + ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nicholas Knobil <nknobil(at)gwi.net>

Subject: HS602PP
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Hey John, You're absolutely right (blushing furiously)...I figured it out (i.e. looked at the pieces) right after I'd posted the message to the list -- 'aint it always the way. Thanks for your the relpy. I didn't destroy anything -- yet. Regards Nick ---------- From: Jon Elford[SMTP:jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 10:31 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: HS602PP > >Hey Folks, > >Just getting started with the forward spar of the HS, and I noticed that the outboard flanges of the HS602PPs are bent forward instead of aft. The flanges are shown in the plans and in the G.O. emp video as being bent aft, and I have seen no reference to this in the RV-LIST archives. > >I am in the software biz, so I am being humorous when I ask the group if this is a "bug" or a "feature". > >Any wisdom gratefully welcome > >Nick Knobil >Bowdoinham, Maine >08B >#80549 > Nick, You aren't working with the elevator spars are you? Their flanges are bent opposite. Be careful as a quick check of my -6 plans says that the elevator forward spars are numbered E602PP. Make sure you have the HS602's. They are not prepunched, therefore don't have the suffix "PP". Hope it's not too late! Don't cut them! Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 Construcing a rudder from a bunch of flimsy pieces > > > Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: McLaughlJR <McLaughlJR(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: build your own engine
So the short answer seems to be weight. If you can lick the weight problem ( without giving away all of the reliability ) then you might have something.. And, as has been well explained, the quickest way to try to beat weight is to use RPM to get more almost (but not quite) "free" (speaking only about weight) horsepower. Remembering that HP=torquexrpm/5252 , it would seem to me that in order to produce a viable engine that beats the current ones in all relevant parameters, we will need to see improvements in low end torque (pressure) - maybe the diesels - or more weight savings with higher turning engine/prsu combinations - maybe the rotary. On engines of less than ~250 hp, this seems to be somewhat difficult to do. Above that it seems to be much easier. Which puts us RV builders at somewhat of a disadvantage. I'm sure all of this can be improved with enough bucks, but we've discussed that pretty well. You can correct me I missed something. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Well if you want to go fancy you could buy a solid state pocket recorder from Tandy (no tools required except to strip it down) and record your own. What I had in mind was just waking the pilot up that he had a problem so that he would then check his alarm panel (you do have one of those don't you...) > ---------- > From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com[SMTP:wstucklen1(at)juno.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 11:49 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Batteries > > Stucklen) > > Actually, audio output alarms could have speech as well as the > standard > boops and bops. The technologies used in the talking check lists coudl > be > installed, at very little cost, to output directly into the audio > panel! > (We do it all the time in the toy industry) A talking modual costs > under > $10.00....... BUT, one needs the proper development tools.... > > > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV > (Working on second RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) > wstucklen1(at)juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
> If one wants an automotive V-8 with direct drive in a homebuilt (RV?), then > the Wittman conversion of the GM AL block is the most thoroughly proven > conversion out there. Hi listers, A little extra info for the non "gearheads" among us. The engine referred to above was the all aluminium 215 cubic inch Buick V-8. They were used primarily in the Skylark. They came in 2 barrel, 4 barrel and turbo charged versions (turbos were rare). GM gave up on them as they had problems with casting consistancy, which led to head & headgasket problems. Rover bought the production tooling and debugged the design. > Shirl Dickey of E-Racer fame built several of these engines and used them > in his Rutan derivative "E-Racer". Shirl installed longer throw cranks in > his increasing the displacement to 300+ cu in. (and more torque). The Buick 300 cubic inch iron V-8 engine was of the same basic family (ie. design) as the 215 cu. in. The 300 was a bored & stroked 215. By using 300 crank and rods, you effectively stroke the 215 to enlarge it's displacement. I used to play with these back in high school. I can't recall how much extra displacement you got from swapping cranks. I'm sure one of you out there knows. :-) Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowen.com>
Subject: Flight restrictions
Date: Dec 17, 1997
This topics has me confused. Does this mean I can't take my RV-8 (I have yet to acquire the first rivit, but...) to a major airport in a major city like ORD or CLT? What's congested? Who decides? Surely this can't be right..... Larry larry(at)bowen.com RV-8 builder, soon... On Friday, December 12, 1997 7:38 PM, gasobek(at)juno.com [SMTP:gasobek(at)juno.com] wrote: > > My OPERATION LIMITATION lists: > > "1. No person shall operate this aircraft other than as an amateur built. > Additionally, this aircraft shall be operated in accordance with the > applicable air traffic and general operating rules of FAR 91 and all > limitations herein prescribed under the provision of FAR 91.319 (e). " > > FAR 91.319 (c) list that .... "no person may operate an aircraft that has > an experimental certificate over a densely populated are or in a > [snip] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
<< What exhaust system did you use? I'm about to order the crossover type; but, I may be ordering the wrong ones if I order the Robbins muffs. >> Rick Robbins' muffs work great on Larry Vetterman's High Country crossovers (1.75" dia pipes). -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Timed tanks
> Incidentally, the switching tanks requirement would have saved some > heart palpitations for me. Returning from my second trip away in a C172, > I did my pre-landing checks "B..U..M..Fuel 'selector on Both' Oh my God > it's on Right!!!" I estimate maybe 5, certainly less than 15, minutes > fuel in that tank. For some reason (parked across a slope?), the > previous pilot had seen fit to change to Right. I'd been in a hurry to > take off to get home before dark (I know!!! Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!) and > hadn't checked the fuel selector position. > > Please people, learn from my mistake. I know *I* have. One possible explanation why it was in "R" : Whenever I fueled a 172 I always switched the selector to R or L. If you leave it in "Both" you can't get the tanks completely full due to cross feeding during the time delay of moving your ladder and hose to the second tank (I know the first one didn't go down much, but I like them full). I never turned the selector off to avoid the cross feed out of fear I would forget to turn it back on before takeoff. Bob Reiff RV4 #2646, building fuselage Reiff Preheat Systems http://www.execpc.com/reiff FAA/PMA aircraft preheat systems, RV wing skin heaters ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Timed tanks
<34949C58.D352A698(at)cdsnet.net> <19971214.201945.2782.0.SMCDANIELS(at)juno.com> > >> The major cause of engine failure is > >> simply running out of gas. In the interests of safety, why aren't we > >> discussing how to add extra fuel tanks to our planes? > >> Frank.<< >> > I think it is an error in logic to assume that the type of pilot that > runs out of fuel with 32 gal available, wouldn't run out if he had 42 > available. > Or if it's an RV-8 builder that has an airplane with 42 gal available, > then he would be safer with 50? > I doubt it! > It takes a safe pilot to have safety in an airplane regardless of how > much fuel is available! > > Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. Scott is absolutely correct. My Cherokee 235 has 84 gallons in 4 tanks (a 6 hr supply). A leading cause of accidents in this make & model is...you guessed it: fuel mismanagement. Per Aviation Consumer "Accidents continue to occur because of failure to switch tanks or because a tank with no fuel or low fuel is selected." Bob Reiff RV4 #2646 building fuselage Reiff Preheat Systems http://www.execpc.com/reiff FAA/PMA aircraft preheat systems, RV wing skin heaters ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Warren Bishop <wemkbish(at)nponline.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator options
Phone # for Mark Landoll 405-685-0239 shop = 405-392-3847 Sport AV8R wrote: > > Ed Bundy wrote: > > > used Van's alternator kit (alt, bracket, mounts) and the fixed solid > > state regulator. > > Thanks for all the replies, fellas. I'm glad it's that simple, but my Van's > accessories catalog says "Alternators / Due to unfortunate circumstances > beyond our control.... {we will be of no help to you whatsoever in providing a > suitable alternator for your shiny new toy, so get on the internet and ask the > RV listers for advice"} > Of course, the catalog also says "1995" on the cover. I was not aware that > Vans was back in the alternator business. I will have to request a new > catalog. When Van markets a part, it's usually the best value for the > application, in my experience. > > Meanwhile, anyone have the phone # for Mr.Landoll? > > Thanks in advance. > Bill Boyd > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)juno.com
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Flight Restrictions
I know the answer but can anyone else answer where in the FAR's the definition for a densely populated area or a congested airway can be found? (or any other FAA publication?) Gary A. Sobek RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell writes: > >> >However, an experimental aircraft should not sight-see or looter >over >> >any populated area. ^^^^^^ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Batteries
>Why doesn't anyone wire alarms into their audio circuit? >It's very easy to do, all it needs is a cheap battery powered oscillator >circuit if your panel alarms don't have an audio output, and an accept >button to cancel it. >With noise cancelling headsets this is absolutely essential as is some >thing like a master caution light if you don't like headsets. Why indeed. We've just taken delivery of the etched circuit boards for a low voltage warning module with sufficient output capability to drive a light or an aux battery contactor or both (see Sport Aviation Aug 95. p.99). We'll have the completed assemblies on our web catalog in a few weeks. We'll also publish the bill of materials and schematic for those who care to roll their own. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)netins.net>
Subject: Re: Flight Restrictions
Date: Dec 13, 1997
> >I know the answer but can anyone else answer where in the FAR's the >definition for a densely populated area or a congested airway can be >found? (or any other FAA publication?) > >Gary A. Sobek You will not find the answer to this question or numerous others in the FAR's. The FAA does not want to answer these questions and if pressed the will not render opinions either. If they do answer the response will contain a caveat that the opinion expressed does not contitute a ruling and can not be applied to any situation other than the one that they are responding to. My personal favorite paradox is the one about flying within 500 ft of anything (people, buildings, etc.) except for take off and landing. Now comes the "low approach." All of us have done them. Most of us have done them at airports where there is a hiway at the end of the runway where there might have been an automobile passing which possibly had a person in it and hence we violated this rule. Right? Does a low approach fall under the category of takeoff or landing? It depends. If you are flying an ILS approach on a checkride with the FAA in the right seat it fits in that category. If you are flying a P-51 at an airshow it may not. What is the difference? The standard is not intent to land because neither airplane had any intention of landing. The answer is there is no answer. I have had this conversation with several FAA types and they all just look at you and smile. The FAA reserves the ambiguity in the regs which allows them the flexibility to apply the rules as they see fit. They also take this further and selectively ignore certain regulations until someone (you or them) is in a jam. Flying over congested areas fits in this final category. They have decided to ignore this reg unless there is a problem. As long as they have a rule, their hind quarters are covered. The EAA and everyone else understands that their is no chance of changing that reg. hence, everyone pretends it does not exsist. We as experimental drivers need to remember that the constitution gives far more protection to firearms than to homebuilt flyers and we all see how much trouble they have. My standard rule is don't ask questions that you won't like the answers to. It applies here. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com www.petroblend.com/dougr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: GYROS
> > All the replies I have seen on this list assume a loss of >electrical power was due to an alternator failure. > What do you do in the event the failure is a short on the >essential power bus or a battery failure? Batteries generally fail gracefully and even when they're really soggy, they don't cause an alternator to quit too. A really soft battery will still keep the bus fairly clean. How would you get a short on the bus? All distribution from the bus is protected by fuses/breakers. When you install the bus, look around. Given all the tools at hand, what would you hammer, saw or bend in order to get your bus shorted to ground? If it's possible to do it manually, then there's something wrong with your installation. If you can't figure out a way to MAKE it happen, it's not going to happen by itself. > In the event of a battery failure the alternator cannot operate >as it has no field excitation. (The unfiltered output of the alternator >bounces to much to be used for this and most manufacturers interlock the >battery master with the alternator to prevent the alternator being used >if the battery is off.) Suppose a battery went soft while your are enroute (which means it was probably SO bad that you had to jump start the engine), how would you know it? Batteries are needed to get an alternator up but once running, a VERY tired battery will suffice. > . . . . Their a ways to fix this but they don't seem to >appear in this thread. (This is where a vacuum system is useful as a >standby or the electrical system.) There are EASY ways to provide VERY reliable power, not the least of which includes replacing batteries when they drop to 1/2 capacity instead of waiting until they fail to crank an engine. > A short on the essential bus ( which you have insulated haven't >you) will take out all your plans unless you have another system. (Don't >laugh it has happened to a number of Boeing airliners to my knowledge) If there's a way your essential bus can become shorted to ground, you'd better design it out . . . no excuse for this what-so-ever. Boeing's have HUNDREDS of miles of wire in them, your airplane has 1/10th of a mile of wire in it . . . Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Battery
<< I'm interested in your reply to Gary concerning the battery cables. I am also preparing to do this. How did you get past the seat floors, spars, etc. I can get under the floors up to the seats, then I am lost as how to get to the foward floor. My 6A has a false floor in the front so I can also pass under that up to the firewall. Also, I'm not amiliar with a bulkhead connector for the firewall. Where do we acquire this item. Thanks for any help. Charles N609CG 6A Mounting engine, working on panel > >> Charles: I was speaking for any -4 or Rocket builders, altho this might apply to the -8 also. As you may know, the -4 has a big hole in the center of the spar. I'd ask Van's if this could be applied to the -6. I'm guessing you are installing a 200 HP lyc? Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Maneuvering Speed vs Gross Weight
Date: Dec 16, 1997
The stall speed and the maneuvering speed vary as the square root of the weight. Take the square root of the ratio of the weights and multiply it by the stall speed at normal gross. Example: At 1600 lbs gross, an RV6A stalls at 56 mph. What speed will it stall at 1800 lbs? It will stall faster by a factor of SquareRoot(1800/1600) = SquareRoot(1.13) = 1.06. Thus stall speed at 1800 lbs is 1.06 x 56 = 59.4 mph. The maneuvering speed is similarly 1.06 times faster. If you don't want to use square roots, just take one half of the percent increase to get an approximate answer. In the above example the 1800 lb gross is 13% more (from the 1.13), so the stalling speed is about 6 1/2% more (taking half of 13). If the plane is overgrossed by 20%, the stall speed is about 10% more. For an excellent, non-mathematical discussion of maneuvering speed considerations (wing loading and gust loads for instance), read 'Maneuvering Speed" by John W. Olcott, Flying Wisdom by the Editors of Flying Magazine, ISBN 0-442-22452-4. Dennis Persyk 6A fuselage turtle deck Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97 <Rvator97(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: Re: Alternator options
Jerry: Re: your posting about your alt. with 800 hrs; do you have any cooling,(blast tube) installed? Walt Hastings RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Chris Good <101560.1256(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RV6A-QB fuselage alignment
Thanks to Randall Henderson for your comments on my twisted fuselage. Tom Green at Van's gave me pretty much the same response. I've decided to drill out & replace the aft deck as suggested - Tom's sending me the necessary parts. I'll report the results back to the list. While I'm disappointed that this problem existed at all, I'm happy that there appears to be a relatively straightforward solution. I know that if I just shimmed it straight I'd always view it as substandard. Chris Good, West Bend, WI. RV-6AQ #3091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: altenator options
> >> My battery is >> five years old and as of yesterday it still doing an outstanding job. > >Was yesterday it's death day? After years of struggling with jumper cables and >push starts (even hand crank starts with my MG) I decided to care for batteries >and jerk them out when the warranty is up. > >I do this with the Debonair (2 year Concords?) but is it really necessary? We overhaul engines when compression gets low or oil consumption too high, replace tires when the tread is too thin, replace belts when they're worn and/or cracked, why do we flog a battery until it's dead, DeaD, DEAD? By the time the battery won't crank the engine any more it's been useless as backup power for a LONG time. At least twice a year, shut off the alternator, shed all the loads you don't need and then see how long it takes for battery voltage to fall to 11.0 volts. If that time is too short (I design for 4 hours) then it's time to (1) replace the battery or (2) figure out how to run a lower current essential bus. Lacking objective capacity tests, replace the battery every two years . . . unless you fly only day vfr and don't care if you have electrical power from time to time . . . Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
> >Actually, audio output alarms could have speech as well as the standard >boops and bops. The technologies used in the talking check lists coudl be >installed, at very little cost, to output directly into the audio panel! >(We do it all the time in the toy industry) A talking modual costs under >$10.00....... BUT, one needs the proper development tools.... > Geeshhh!! why so complicated? Most of the accident scenarios I've looked into, the airplane had only load meters or a battery ammeter tucked off in a corner of the panel somewhere. Minimal instrumentation and no active warning. A very tiny but bright LED mounted right between your gyros calibrated to light below 13.0 volts is cheap, very timely and depends on no other system for it's operation (audio system and/or headset). Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 17, 1997
Subject: No subject
Join RV list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
> The downside would be the need for a ten wire harness (ribbon >cable??) back to the panel. I like the idea that everything is digital, >but not the excess of wires in the harnes. An analog position interface >would cut down on the number of wires, but increase the cost of the >electronics. > > I'll continue to look at this some more to see if I can come up with >a low cost, but safe design..... > > How about a potentiometer on the flap mechanism . . . to drive a flap position indicator . . . and then two LM311 comparators, a couple of power FETS and two relays plus another pot. You can "dial" in any flap setting you want and have it drive to that setting. Flap switch would have an AUTO, UP, OFF and DOWN positions with the non-auto postions providing manual control. Bill of materials is under $10. Flap indicator is another $7 for a surplus, minature panel meter. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator options
Rvator97 wrote: > > > Jerry: Re: your posting about your alt. with 800 hrs; do you have any > cooling,(blast tube) installed? > > Walt Hastings RV-6A Hi Walt No I don't have a cooling blast tube, The alternator that I use is pretty much open on both ends. I don't have the part # of the alternator here but I could get it and let you know. Chevy Sprint use it as well as Suzuki Samurai. It also looks just like the one on my 96 Toyota pickup only smaller. -- Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Georgette
> >> > >> > >> > > Thank you! . . . I read about the expression in a book years back > and was having trouble dredging up the "correct" info from the > gray matter. Hmmmm . . . I'm sure "George" was a fully capable, > three-axis autopilot, would a wing-leveler with tracking capabilites > be a Georgette? > Yes, I think that would be acceptable. Don > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GYROS
Tim Bronson wrote: > > > Only partially correct. In the newer "high-tech" aircraft such as the Fokker 100, etc., > "George has been re-named "Hal" for the resemblance to the computer in "2001 - A Space Odyssey" > > > Well I flew the Boeing 767 and 757 and we still called it George. Besides your most likely younger than I am since i'm retiered and your generation will call it what you will. In the old days it was always referred to as "GEORGE" but as we old salts pass on so will this expression I'm sure. Anyway, who cares? Don Champagne RV-6QB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Rudder Pedal gussets
Fellow RVers, I just had a phone call from a friend back in Nebraska who told be of a RV-6 in Omaha that recently wrecked. Evidently, the guy just got airborne when one of his rudder pedals broke. I don't think he was hurt but the aircraft was damaged badly. I'm mentioning this in case anyone on the list might have missed the "recall" from the factory and has not had the gussets welded onto their rudder pedals. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-8 question.
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 18, 1997
I asked you about mounting the Navaid Devices in the RV-8. >I have >already closed my wings, so in the belly is where I would like to put >it. It >seems it could be attached to the main push/pull tube going out to one >of the >ailerons. I was thinking of maybe welding something on the push/pull >tube to >attach the rod end bearing. Or maybe attach it to the big torque tube >going >between the two sticks? What do you think? That is what I would do, tie it in to the main control weldment. You don't have to worry about elevator coupling because it only swings back and forth. I would suggest you wait until you have fitted the wings and rigged the aileron system though. You want the servo arm to move through just short of its maximum range of motion with full aileron travel from stop to stop and that is hard to do with out having the system functional. You could guess at it but it would be better to wait. My other question had to do >with >what we can continue doing without having the plane on the gear >(waiting for >pieces from your employers). We are now mounting the tail surfaces. I >don't >think I want to set the wings until it is on the gear. So we are >thinking of >building up the seats, and maybe then the instrument panel. My >questions is: >What can we work on until the gear stuff arrives. You could work on almost anything else that you have to do except for the lower forward belly area (F-805, F-851 etc.) Even fit the wings if you want. In our shop, once we have the gear fitted and finished we remove it so that the fuse is at a convenient working height ( we sit it on a 24 inch tall saw horse under the centersection). Then it is easy to get in and out of while doing all of the interior finish work. The parts that you are waiting for are designed to be retrofitable even if you had completed the fuse, but all you have to leave undone is the lower fwd. belly skins, which will make it easier to do. I am a first time >builder >scared of getting out of sequence. Actually, except for the landing gear fitting, and the very specific assembly order for the F-850/51's you are at a point where you have the latitude to start planning/ scheduling to fit your desires. Whether you will paint the interior before installing all the systems (recommended) etc. Thanks for your advice. Mark Your very welcome! Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Randy Lervold <RLervold(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Rookie rivet help
Listers, RV-8 #80500 builder here, in the depths of frustration. Before beginning my project I took the AirCrafters class in an attempt to learn what I was doing before starting and doing substandard work. While I did pretty well in the class I'm now doing the final riveting of my HS pieces together. Apparently I didn't learn anything - I just botched 5 rivets attaching the ribs to the forward spar and HS-404 end rib. This is depressing! I've drilled them out but I feel like I'm butchering the thing... definitely not pretty. 1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? 2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? 3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in class! Any and all help appreciated. Thanks, Randy Lervold -8, currently butchering HS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "kevin lane" <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Timed tanks
Date: Dec 17, 1997
> > > It takes a safe pilot to have safety in an airplane regardless of how > > much fuel is available! > > Per Aviation Consumer > "Accidents continue to occur because of failure to switch tanks or > because a tank with no fuel or low fuel is selected." there was a late 70's mustang that had a reserve quart of fuel stored in the actual filler tube. You could release it by getting out and tripping a lever. Perhaps having an extra tank you "forget" you have would be an option ('tho the getting out part could be tricky:=)) The fuel selector valves do have an extra "off" position which could be plumbed for another tank. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: POSTMASTER(at)HUB.BH.BBC.CO.UK (BH/HUB/POSTMASTER)
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Mail failure
FROM: BH/HUB/POSTMASTER TIME: 11:52 SUBJECT: Mail failure ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [021] Message was not delivered due to missing routing file. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just had to add my two cents worth. The 1955 T-34B I fly fights a constant battle with fuel splits. If a lesser pilot (certianly not me) was to allow the plane to fly in a slight yaw for an hour or so the difference in the fuel used in both tanks would be respectably noticeable. The old bird only has an off/on fuel valve, and prefers to drink out of one tank. Yep, the vents are open and everything has checked out several times. The problem became apperant last year when an F-18 jock converted her into a glider and landed on a side street . I'm convinced I want to controll which tank I'm drinking from. Eric Henson Last Tank Rib Oshkosh 2009, here I come. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod <WoodardRod(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
> I just botched 5 rivets attaching the > ribs to the forward spar and HS-404 end rib. This is depressing! I've > drilled them out but I feel like I'm butchering the thing... definitely not > pretty. Man, can I relate to this... > 1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? ________________________________________________________________________________ rivets... a. Use a punch to put a small dimple in the center of the offending rivet. This keeps your drill from wandering off-center. b. Start with a smaller bit than the rivet you're planning to drill out. i.e., use a #40 to drill out a #30-sized rivet (like a 470AD4) c. Try to drill straight throug the middle of the offending rivet. Once you've accomplished a hole with the small bit, then go back through the hole with the bigger bit. d. Use the smooth end of a drill bit. Insert it in the head of the rivet you've just drilled out and gently bend it sideways. The head of the rivet should pop off. Once the head is off, the back side should also pretty much fall out. Sometimes it takes a little prodding. e. As with anything, it doesn't hurt to practice on scrap first. > 2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? Kind of depends where the hole is and the purpose of the rivet. Some rivets aren't _terribly_ critical; others are. Whenever I've had any doubt, I try to hook up with my tech counselor and ask his advice. > 3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head > without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? What I've found is that I use the tips of my fingers to feel what the rivet is doing as I'm bucking. I've also been known to tape small blocks of foam to a bucking bar to keep from screwing things up. > Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in class! > Any and all help appreciated. Some general observations that I've picked up the hard way: 1. It takes less pressure than you'd think to drive rivets. I use about 35 psi for the little rivets (-3's) and 40-45 psi for the bigger ones (-4's). Some might even say this is too much. 2. Make sure whatever you're riveting is adequately supported. For beginning riveters like us, it's really tough to hold the piece _and_ try to rivet it at the same time. 3. Practice on scrap--especially with the 470-4 rivets. I seem to have real problems whenever I have to set these with the rivet gun and bucking bar. 4. Squeeze the rivets as much as possible. I find that my winning percentage goes way up with a squeezer... not that I'm not capable of screwing up even a squeezed rivet, mind you. :-) Keep plugging away. One of the great things about Van's is that replacement parts are cheap. Ask me how I know! Keep building! Rod Woodard RV-8, #80033 Loveland, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
Randy Lervold wrote: > 1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? The best way is to drill from the shop head (the one formed by the bucking bar) through the center of the rivet. Try not to drill deeper than the rivet head. If you cant get to the shop head drill out the other side. The idea is not to enlarge the original hole. Once drilled stick a drift punch into the hole you have just drilled into the rivet head and pry to one side to break it off. Now all that is left is to punch the remaining rivet out of the hole. I use a automatic center punch for this. Using a drift and a hammer will also work but sometimes you will deform the part that the rivet is in. Rivets installed in dimpled holes are harder to remove than machine counter sunk or round head rivets > 2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? Slightly oversized holes can be filled with NAS cheater rivets. They can be bought from Avery in his opps rivet set. You can also pre-squeeze rivets in your hand squeezer to increase the diameter of the shank. Just put the rivet in the squeezer and just barely squeeze and you will see the shank get bigger and bigger. Figure 8 holes are a no-no in my book and parts replacement is necessary unless the a doubter plate can be installed. > 3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head > without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? Practice, Practice. I find that the bigger and heavier the bar the easier it is. I went down to the local hardware store and bought some cheap aluminum to practice on and drove lots of rivets before going after my HS. I still messed a few up but they were easy to drill out as I caught them before I really messed them up. If the shank starts to fold over sideways, stop riveting. Don't try to fix a botched rivet. They just get harder to drill out. On another note, my wife helps me rivet the skins on. At first we started with her bucking and things worked out ok with a few botched rivets and dings. She would see that I was a little to robust in flattening the rivet and would pull the bucking bar away. Ouch! After we had finished wing #1 she confided in me that she really hated bucking. I gave her the rivet gun on the top skins of wing 2 and I ran the bar and we only messed up one rivet. And she had never run the gun before! I know I will never get her to buck again. Good luck Gary Zilik RV-6A s/n 22993 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernesto Sanchez" <es12043(at)utech.com>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
Date: Dec 17, 1997
> GM gave up on them as they had problems with casting consistancy, which led to head & headgasket problems. Not according to Buick's info. In fact when GM started to think about the Cadi Northstar engine they looked at the Buick that was made with it's cast in cylinders. Strong but expensive. They need more cu in for speed. The 215 alum was getting too expensive so they went with cast iron. >Rover bought the production tooling and debugged the design. Rover bought the motor and tooling in 1965 and used as is until the 70's. They have made small changes over time. It now displaces 265 ci. (4.3 l) >> Shirl Dickey of E-Racer fame built several of these engines and used them in his Rutan derivative "E-Racer". Shirl installed longer throw cranks in his increasing the displacement to 300+ cu in. (and more torque). I think he built a 280+ (bored with liners and 300 crank) but went back to a 266 (215 with 300 crank) More reliable. This combo is used alot in boat racing, dune buggies, and airplanes. >The Buick 300 cubic inch iron V-8 engine was of the same basic family (ie. design) as the 215 cu. in. The 300 was a bored & stroked 215. By using 300 crank and rods, you effectively stroke the 215 to enlarge it's displacement. The 215 with the 300 crank has proven it self to be a reliable combo. Easy 200 hp (4500rpm) with total (everything) weight of around 350lbs or less. Surprisingly, easy to get parts for. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Rookie rivet help
Date: Dec 18, 1997
> ---------- > From: Randy Lervold[SMTP:RLervold(at)compuserve.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 4:27 > To: RV List > Subject: RV-List: Rookie rivet help > > > Listers, > > RV-8 #80500 builder here, in the depths of frustration. Before > beginning my > project I took the AirCrafters class in an attempt to learn what I was > doing before starting and doing substandard work. While I did pretty > well > in the class I'm now doing the final riveting of my HS pieces > together. > Apparently I didn't learn anything - I just botched 5 rivets > attaching the > ribs to the forward spar and HS-404 end rib. This is depressing! I've > drilled them out but I feel like I'm butchering the thing... > definitely not > pretty. > > 1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? ________________________________________________________________________________ a. Drill through the head of the rivet to just below the junction of the head and stem. ( a rivet remover tool will help) b. Insert a pin punch in the hole and break the head off or; alternatively use a cold chisel resharpened to a diamond point and polished to break off the head. c. Drive the shank out with a pin punch while supporting the back of the part. This technique will keep the hole growth to a minimum but dimpled surfaces are a real pain to support. You will need to reprime before redriving the rivets. > 2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? From Mil-R-47196a MILITARY SPECIFICATION, RIVETS, BUCK TYPE, PREPARATION FOR AND INSTALLATION OF Table1 Rivet Diameter Rec.Drill Sizes Hole Diameter Limits Minimum Maximum 1/16 #51 (0.067) 0.062 0.072 3/32 #40 (0.098) 0.093 0.103 1/8 #30 (0.128) 0.125 0.135 5/32 #21 (0.159) #20 (0.161) 0.156 0.171 3/16 #11 (0.191) #10 (0.194) 0.187 0.202 7/32 #1 (0.228) 0.218 0.233 1/4 F (0.257) 0.250 0.265 9/32 L (0.290) 0.281 0.296 5/16 0 (0.316) 0.312 0.327 11/32 S (0.348) 0.343 0.358 3/8 V (0.377) 0.375 0.390 13/32 Z (0.413) 0.406 0.421 It also suggest you go up a size if you bust the limits. A full copy is on the net. It makes interesting reading. > 3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop > head > without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? Practice, practice, practice. I find driving a few rivets in scrap to get my hand in each time helps. > Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in > class! > Any and all help appreciated. > > Thanks, > Randy Lervold > -8, currently butchering HS > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: RE: GYROS
Date: Dec 18, 1997
I agree with most of your comments but you haven't considered broken cables, which I will admit is far more common in aircraft maintained by the trained chimps the airlines are willing to pay for (which is not to say that is what they always get...) but what I was getting at was that when wiring up a plane you may need to consider what would happen if a crimp failed due to a dud terminal, fractured wire or a poorly set crimper. Anything it could contact within the range of its restraint should be insulated so as to ensure it does contact live components. > ---------- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III[SMTP:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 8:59 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: RE: GYROS > > > > > > > All the replies I have seen on this list assume a loss of > >electrical power was due to an alternator failure. > > What do you do in the event the failure is a short on the > >essential power bus or a battery failure? > > Batteries generally fail gracefully and even when they're > really soggy, they don't cause an alternator to quit too. > A really soft battery will still keep the bus fairly clean. > How would you get a short on the bus? All distribution from > the bus is protected by fuses/breakers. When you install the > bus, look around. Given all the tools at hand, what would > you hammer, saw or bend in order to get your bus shorted > to ground? If it's possible to do it manually, then there's > something wrong with your installation. If you can't figure > out a way to MAKE it happen, it's not going to happen by > itself. > > > In the event of a battery failure the alternator cannot operate > >as it has no field excitation. (The unfiltered output of the > alternator > >bounces to much to be used for this and most manufacturers interlock > the > >battery master with the alternator to prevent the alternator being > used > >if the battery is off.) > > Suppose a battery went soft while your are enroute (which means > it was probably SO bad that you had to jump start the engine), > how would you know it? Batteries are needed to get an alternator > up but once running, a VERY tired battery will suffice. > > > . . . . Their a ways to fix this but they don't seem to > >appear in this thread. (This is where a vacuum system is useful as a > >standby or the electrical system.) > > There are EASY ways to provide VERY reliable power, not the > least of which includes replacing batteries when they drop to > 1/2 capacity instead of waiting until they fail to crank an > engine. > > > A short on the essential bus ( which you have insulated haven't > >you) will take out all your plans unless you have another system. > (Don't > >laugh it has happened to a number of Boeing airliners to my > knowledge) > > If there's a way your essential bus can become shorted to ground, > you'd better design it out . . . no excuse for this what-so-ever. > > Boeing's have HUNDREDS of miles of wire in them, your airplane > has 1/10th of a mile of wire in it . . . > > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > > < Show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
> >Listers, > >RV-8 #80500 builder here, in the depths of frustration. Before beginning my >project I took the AirCrafters class in an attempt to learn what I was >doing before starting and doing substandard work. While I did pretty well >in the class I'm now doing the final riveting of my HS pieces together. >Apparently I didn't learn anything - I just botched 5 rivets attaching the >ribs to the forward spar and HS-404 end rib. This is depressing! I've >drilled them out but I feel like I'm butchering the thing... definitely not >pretty. > >1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? >2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? >3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head >without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? > >Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in class! >Any and all help appreciated. > >Thanks, >Randy Lervold >-8, currently butchering HS > Randy, I had similar trouble adjusting to this new task, too. It will pass soon. The trick is to set the gun at the right power setting. You want to have it set high enough to set the rivet fairly quickly. If you set it too low and just "tap" the rivets down, you actually will work-harden the rivet and it becomes harder to set. If you set it too high, of course, you will make all your parts look like a fender off of a 62 Ford Fairlane. The biggest problem I encountered when doing the very task you describe was having the skeleton laying on the table unsecured. When you set the rivet, the last thing you need to worry about is trying to keep the thing from dancing off to one side or another. You should be able to devote all your attention to keeping the rivet set square and tight against the mfg head of the rivet. Have your wife, neighbor, brother, priest or someone hold the dang thing while you hammer the rivets. As for bucking bar control, this must be learned through practice, but comes pretty quickly. Be careful not to let the edges of the bucking bar touch the ribs or spars. It will scratch the heck out of them. In the places where this happened to me (more than once, I'm afraid) I touched up the primer with a small brush. Also, be sure the rivet you are using has 1.5 diameters protruding out the back side. This should be the adhered to like the gospel. Any longer and they will hob-nail on you. Keep your head up, it gets easier. Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 Rudder > > Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Experimental Video
George, I just wanted to say thanks for the EP Construction Tapes, I am an Electrical Contractor on Long Island NY, and never did any riveting or sheet metal work, and the tapes mad life a whole lot easier. My wing kit along with your tapes should arrive shortly, if it ever gets out of crating at Vans. Thanks Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Anderson Ed" <AndersonE(at)bah.com>
Subject: Maneuvering Speed vs Gross Weight
Thanks Dennis ed ---------- From: Dennis Persyk Subject: RV-List: Maneuvering Speed vs Gross Weight Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:28PM The stall speed and the maneuvering speed vary as the square root of the weight. Take the square root of the ratio of the weights and multiply it by the stall speed at normal gross. Example: At 1600 lbs gross, an RV6A stalls at 56 mph. What speed will it stall at 1800 lbs? It will stall faster by a factor of SquareRoot(1800/1600) = SquareRoot(1.13) = 1.06. Thus stall speed at 1800 lbs is 1.06 x 56 = 59.4 mph. The maneuvering speed is similarly 1.06 times faster. If you don't want to use square roots, just take one half of the percent increase to get an approximate answer. In the above example the 1800 lb gross is 13% more (from the 1.13), so the stalling speed is about 6 1/2% more (taking half of 13). If the plane is overgrossed by 20%, the stall speed is about 10% more. For an excellent, non-mathematical discussion of maneuvering speed considerations (wing loading and gust loads for instance), read 'Maneuvering Speed" by John W. Olcott, Flying Wisdom by the Editors of Flying Magazine, ISBN 0-442-22452-4. Dennis Persyk 6A fuselage turtle deck Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)juno.com
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Floor mounted Rudder Pedal gussets
Bob: Does this apply only to the FLOOR MOUNT rudder pedels? My floor mount rudder pedels had this done when VAN recalled them over 4 years ago. I am not sure that this applies to the "overhead" mounted rudder pedels. Gary A. Sobek RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell > >Fellow RVers, > > I just had a phone call from a friend back in Nebraska who told be of a >RV-6 in Omaha that recently wrecked. Evidently, the guy just got airborne >when one of his rudder pedals broke. I don't think he was hurt but the >aircraft was damaged badly. > I'm mentioning this in case anyone on the list might have missed the >"recall" from the factory and has not had the gussets welded onto their >rudder pedals. > >Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Anderson Ed" <AndersonE(at)bah.com>
Subject: Floor mounted Rudder Pedal gussets
Gary, I have an RV-6 with the top hinged rudder pedals and as best I recall the MOD (additional brace) applies to the older floor mounted rudder pedals. Ed ---------- From: gasobek Subject: RV-List: Floor mounted Rudder Pedal gussets Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 8:24AM Bob: Does this apply only to the FLOOR MOUNT rudder pedels? My floor mount rudder pedels had this done when VAN recalled them over 4 years ago. I am not sure that this applies to the "overhead" mounted rudder pedels. Gary A. Sobek RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell > >Fellow RVers, > > I just had a phone call from a friend back in Nebraska who told be of a >RV-6 in Omaha that recently wrecked. Evidently, the guy just got airborne >when one of his rudder pedals broke. I don't think he was hurt but the >aircraft was damaged badly. > I'm mentioning this in case anyone on the list might have missed the >"recall" from the factory and has not had the gussets welded onto their >rudder pedals. > >Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Patrick E. Kelley" <webmstr(at)kalitta.com>
Subject: Re: Flight restrictions
Larry Bowen wrote: > > This topics has me confused. Does this mean I can't take my RV-8 (I have > yet to acquire the first rivit, but...) to a major airport in a major city > like ORD or CLT? What's congested? Who decides? Surely this can't be > right..... I think (my opinion only) that this is a general rule, meant to apply unless specifically removed in your operating limitations. It was probably intended to prevent homebuilders from buzzing their neighbors in their just-built you-name-it, only to have a failure and crash into a buncha homes; as well as limiting true experimentals (you know what I mean) from airways and congested areas. These birds have a higher likelyhood of a malf; do you really want them having trouble in close proximity to other traffic and/or over homes. By the way, congested has a definition which I forget, but is the same one that restricts aerobatics. If I recall correctly (I really need to fly again, it's been too long), congested area are marked on VFR charts in yellow. Should you worry about not being able to use your homebuilt? Not really, if you do your homework. Surely you can find a non-congested strip to do your flight testing from. If not, chances are you can still fly; I've seen a homebuilt operate out of OAK during it's test phase. I'm not sure of the details, but I'm sure the local FSDO approved or he could not have done it; OAK is surrounded by urban space, not to mention ceilinged by SFO's airspace. PatK - RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
Ernesto Sanchez wrote: > > GM gave up on them as they had problems with casting consistancy, which > led to head & headgasket problems. > > Not according to Buick's info. In fact when GM started to think about the > Cadi Northstar engine they looked at the Buick that was made with it's cast > in cylinders. Strong but expensive. They need more cu in for speed. The 215 > alum was getting too expensive so they went with cast iron. Ernesto, I have to take exception with this. As you have stated "Not according to Buick's info". It seems to me you are buying into the PR department's BS. (GM wouldn't lie, would they?) :-) If that were true, Chevrolet would not have contracted out the manufacture of the all aluminium Corvette engine to Evinrude Marine. They didn't have the technology and they (at least the engineering department) knew it. Public Relations departments don't have to obey the laws of physics, engineering departments do. They learned through Evinrude. Gasket technology has also improved with time. Thanks for the displacement info. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Orndorff G <OrndorffG(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
Rod, Too drill lets say a 1/8 inch rivet out you need to do as followed. 1. with an 1/8 in bit inn your drill place the bit on top of the rivet and turn the bit by hand until there is a small dent on the top of the rivet, This will keep the bit from walking. Now drill into the head to the rivet NOT the body. 2. with the hole in the head only place a 1/8 inch punch into the head and snap the head of the rivet off or most of the head off. 3. with the head off the body is left. take a punch 3/32 or 1/8 and punch the rest of the rivet out. This leaves the hole untouched and ready for a new rivet. try this and see if it helps....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
<3.0.1.16.19971217223550.11a7959e(at)dtc.net>
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Bob, Sounds good, but what are the failure modes? What kind of flap switch would you use that has four positions? Is it possible to leave that switch in the UP or DOWN positions, and if so, what happens? What kind of dead bands would be needed in the comparator circuit to account for motor coasting and/or any analog noise? Is there a need for annunciation of the failure modes? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:35:50 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" writes: > How about a potentiometer on the flap mechanism . . . to drive > a flap position indicator . . . and then two LM311 comparators, > a couple of power FETS and two relays plus another pot. You can > "dial" in any flap setting you want and have it drive to that > setting. Flap switch would have an AUTO, UP, OFF and DOWN positions > with the non-auto postions providing manual control. Bill of > materials is under $10. Flap indicator is another $7 for a > surplus, minature panel meter. > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection don't you...) > he panel somewhere. Minimal >instrumentation > and no active warning. A very tiny but bright LED mounted right > between your gyros calibrated to light below 13.0 volts is cheap, > very timely and depends on no other system for it's operation > (audio system and/or headset). > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Carroll Bird <catbird(at)taylortel.com>
Subject: Baffeling Baffles
I have an RV-4 that has an 0-360-A1A engine installed in it. I used the parts that came out of the -4 installation kit, or finish kit as it is called. I am now installing the baffles. I have the sheet metal screwed to the engine and cylinder heads. Now, I have started to trim them to fit the top cowl half. The aft portion fit very well, as well as the forward portion of the baffles around the air inlets. My problem is that I have had to trim the sheet metal down to about 1/4" above the cylinder heads and I only have about 1/8" to 3/16" clearance from the cowl. I called Van's and talked to John Morgan, he indicated that I should have an inch or so clearance in this area. There was no solution offered as to what I should do about this. I have nearly reached the point that I will not have the necessary metal to rivet the flexible rubber material to and it is really not enough clearance for the cowl yet. Has anyone else installed this same engine setup to the -4? If so, did you have this problem? How was it overcome? I can't see where I have made a mistake. The engine mount is in the proper place. The rubber engine mounts are situated as the instructions call for. The engine is level with the fuselage. This has a dyna-focal 1 mount. Any input will be appreciated. Carroll Bird, Buffalo Gap, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Rudder Pedal Gussetts
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Bob, Your recent note mentioned a "recall" on rudder pedals. I'm not familiar with it. Is it for floor mounted rudders or the ones that hang down? Did Vans modify them? When did the "recall" go out? How would I know if I needed them? I appreciate your notes. They're well written and informative. Thanks, Bob RV-6 on the gear. --- "The opinions expressed herein are solely the author's and are not necessarily the opinions of USAA." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <harje(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Flight restrictions
Like many laws, that one was past to take care of "real" pushing the envelope experimental designs, not "production experimentals, built by amatures individual factories" such as RVs and several others on the market. RV's have been highly tested under real conditions, by hundreds of not very experienced test pilots. And once our projects are tested, they will be very safe airplane. Not one of the "on the edge of the envelope types". At least as safe as many production types. Maybe should be another catagory to the so called experimental class for RV's and the likes that are being built by the hundreds.... The best Holidays ever to you and yours. Denny RV-6 (w/fixed rudder peddles.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Mike Wills <willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
>Hi listers, >> Shirl Dickey of E-Racer fame built several of these engines and used them >> in his Rutan derivative "E-Racer". Shirl installed longer throw cranks in >> his increasing the displacement to 300+ cu in. (and more torque). > >The Buick 300 cubic inch iron V-8 engine was of the same basic family >(ie. design) as the 215 cu. in. The 300 was a bored & stroked 215. By >using 300 crank and rods, you effectively stroke the 215 to enlarge it's >displacement. I used to play with these back in high school. I can't >recall how much extra displacement you got from swapping cranks. I'm >sure one of you out there knows. :-) > >Charlie Kuss It should also be noted that the E-Racer installation is not a direct drive installation, which is what I thought was being considered in this thread. The E Racer uses a PSRU derived from ski boat drives. Shirl wrote an excellent article for Contact! which can be found in the compilation book "Alternative Engines", published by Mick Myal. Mike Wills RV-4(wings done, saving for fuse) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: "Both" position on fuel selector
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
. I can cite a LOT of "tried and proven" systems flying >today > that are revered simply because of their longevity in certified > airplanes . . . long after everyone forgot why that decision was >made. > > If we're interested in progress, then we have to accept change. If > a change is proposed, then then we should be prepared to do the > science to either pursue or discard the idea . . . tried and proven > in a certified world gets you Cessna 172s. Bob, I am as interesred in progress as anybody, but change just for the sake of change is not wise.Tried and proven can keep your butt in one piece. Try as I might, I cannot envision any advantage to having a"both" position on an RV fuel selector but can think of several disadvantages. Bill, N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Jim R. Stone" <Stonedog(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RV4 Rollbar
Von, I'm currious about you owning a second hand -4 and now building a -8. Do you feel the -8 is a supperior plane or did you want to build? What is your plans for the -4 when the -8 is complete? Did you consider building a Harmon Rocket? Just currious. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: RV-list support donation?
I have some $$ to support the rv-list. Can anybody tell me what the address of Matronics is? Reply to; cruble(at)cisco.com Thanks -Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Loren D. Jones" <Loren(at)LorenJones.com>
Subject: Re: RV6 Electric Flap Control.
Date: Dec 18, 1997
>Hi I am building an RV6A with electric flaps. I have been told the electric >flaps are slow and require holding a switch until the desired position. I >have several ways of fixing the switch holding problem, but what I really need >to know is, how many positions do I need. I have plans for installing a >microprocessor based flap control system that will allow you to select a >position and forget it. Of course the system will have manual override and a >few other safety items incorporated. A Cessna-like control would be nice for the electric flaps. Does anyone know if a similar switch is available? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533 <MAlexan533(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
When riveting skins, my teenage son and I developed a technique that I will share, as this eliminates the bucker and the riveter from being on different rivets, and other problems. I, as the riveter, put the rivet in and push on it with the gun. The bucker then pushes out on the rivet, pushing my gun away from the skin. I then push back in until flush, then set the rivet. This does two things. I know for a certainty that he is on the right rivet and not somewhere else. Also, when I push back in, I can feel whether he has adequate pressure on the bucking bar to set the rivet. Works like a charm! We came up with this on our own, although I am sure it has been done before. Also, we use the largest, heaviest bucking bar you can fit inside whatever you are bucking. If you get too big, though, the edge could be against the skin somewhere while you are bucking and dent it. So you must know what is going on in there at all times! We also have found that a 3/4" mushroom flush rivet set with no rubber edge works better. I seem to be able to control it better and get better results. Just make sure the set has plenty of convex (not flat) on the tip, with well rounded, highly polished edges. And finally, do not use excess air pressure. Remember, those little 426-3-3.5's set with a lot less pressure that you might think! Hope this helps. Von Alexander N107RV(rv-4) #80544 (rv-8) Tail finished, waiting for wings MAlexan533(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: RV4 Rollbar
Date: Dec 18, 1997
I don't have an SCCA rule book anymore, but I recall that it specifies the Gx, Gy, and Gz that a roll bar should be able to withstand. That might be a good place to start for anyone modifying the roll bar on their RV-4. Anyone know the exact numbers? I seem to recall Gx 3 Gy 7 Gz 9 but that's from a long time ago. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC [-6 tail] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Malia Mondy <malia(at)truman.edu>
Subject: -6 or -8
Rick, I'm curious, too, (like a post a few minutes ago RE: -4 vs. -8) -- why did you make the change? Some of us are still deciding the tandem vs. side-by-side issue; could you give some of the factors that helped make your decision to get rid of the -6 and start building an -8?? Malia Mondy >Rick McBride >RV-6 N523JC gone >RV-8 80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
> >Rod, > Too drill lets say a 1/8 inch rivet out you need to do as followed. > >1. with an 1/8 in bit inn your drill place the bit on top of the rivet and >turn the bit by hand until there is a small dent on the top of the rivet, This >will keep the bit from walking. Now drill into the head to the rivet NOT the >body. One note, the 'AD' rivets specified by Van even have a nice little dimple in the center of them for identification (how thoughtful ...:^). Sometimes it is easier to use an automatic center punch to make this dimple larger. > >2. with the hole in the head only place a 1/8 inch punch into the head and >snap the head of the rivet off or most of the head off. > 3. with the head off the body is left. take a punch 3/32 or 1/8 and punch the >rest of the rivet out. This leaves the hole untouched and ready for a new >rivet. ADDED STEP FOR DIFFICULT RIVETS: 4. use a drill that is one rivet size less (#40 for 1/8 rivets, #50 for 3/32 rivets) and drill down into the remaining body of the rivet. Do not drill all the way through, just drill deep enough to be slightly deeper than the combined thickness of the sheet material (i.e., just into the shop head. Now use a small size punch to push the remaining rivet portion out of the hole. This will be now much easier since the remaining rivet has been reduced to a "tube". This technique works well for the longer size rivets where the punching required step 3 above needs a lot of force. ... this should get those real stubborn ones ... ... Gil (drill carefully) Alexander > >try this and see if it helps....George Orndorff > ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701, finishing kit "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Steve Barnard <Steve(at)barnardaircraft.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Gross wt q's
Hi Bill, I reviewed all speed formulas very carefully from different sources and came to a new understanding. I hereby stand corrected. According to FAR part 23 the maneuvering speed will increase with weight or decrease with lower weights. And this is why you are seeing this in the Piper manual. Also a description of maneuvering speed is a condition where the airplane is stalled at 4.4 g's with no flaps. If it is a utility category airplane. If the weight goes up stall speed goes up along with manuevering speed. As far a g-loading is concerned on any airplane, at any speed or any weight, the most important instrument is the g-meter. This will dynamically tell you anytime how much you are stressing the airplane. The military uses the ones that cannot be reset so the the maintenance crew can tell if the Pilot has overstressed the airplane. If you don't exceed 6g's in the RV you probably won't hurt it regardless of speed or weight. Past that loading your going to bend that beautiful piece of art work you created with years of work. >Steve- >I'm sorry this is not strictly to the subject here(i.e. not RV pertinent), >but perhaps you can answer a question for me: I am currently flying an >Arrow(T-tail) and the manual says that the manuevering speed at max gross >wt(2750 lbs) is 121K, but at 1863 lbs it is reduced to 96K? I reasoned >that, like you, that a lower weight would mean lower stresses, but their >opinion seems to fly in the face of that. I realize you cannot speak for >Piper Aircraft, but I thought you might have an opinion or some knowledge >that I don't. TIA. >Bill Shaw, Lurker > > > >The key issue here and the most important is the maneuvering speed of the > aircraft. This is where you can apply full and intentional use of control > surfaces to there full extent without damaging the aircraft. This is the > speed you should obtain when flying thru turbulent air. This is the most, > I repeat the most damaging load the airplane will see. There is higher > loads placed on the airplane here, even higher than VNE or maximum dive > speed. The wings linear load is greatest at maneuvering speed. > >If one uses a higher gross weight consider lowering your maneuvering speed >accordingly to prevent damage to the airplane in turbulence. > References for the above are Analysis & Design of Flight Vehicles > Structures by Bruhn and Modern Aircraft design by Martin Hollman. Respectfully, Steve Barnard Barnard Aircraft Components RV-6A N157ST 1000 hrs flying steve(at)barnardaircraft.com http://www.barnardaircraft.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Floor mounted Rudder Pedal gussets
>Bob: > >Does this apply only to the FLOOR MOUNT rudder pedels? My floor mount >rudder pedels had this done when VAN recalled them over 4 years ago. I >am not sure that this applies to the "overhead" mounted rudder pedels. > >Gary A. Sobek >RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell Gary & RVers, I forgot about the overheads. I'm sure the pedals that broke were floor mounted and I've never seen Van's come up with any fixes on the suspended rudder pedals. Sorry about not being clearer. I've got the floor mounted pedals & evidently think everyone else does as well:) Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <harje(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Tank nut plate problem
While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over tightening here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided stainless screws. I recall a builder complaining of something simular to this in another area several months ago. He mentioned something as I recall about conflict between the plate nut material and stainless screws. ??? The best Holidays ever to you and yours. Denny RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Tank nut plate problem
Date: Dec 18, 1997
I did not have that problem. With my RV-6 kit I got golden screws that are quite soft. In fact, the heads stripped after being run down snug once or twice. I did not get stainless screws with my kit. Maybe that was good as it is easy to replace those golden screws (although I wish they'd last a little longer). Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Fuselage in the jig. -----Original Message----- While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re:List support donation?
>-------------- > >I have some $$ to support the rv-list. Can anybody tell me what the >address of Matronics is? > >Reply to; cruble(at)cisco.com > >Thanks -Chris >-------------- You may send you donations to: List Support c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94550 or FAX a Visa or Mastercard donation to: List Support c/o Matt Dralle Matronics 510-606-6281 FAX Thank you! Matt Dralle -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernesto Sanchez" <es12043(at)utech.com>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
Date: Dec 18, 1997
This is just for info. This is not a flame war. I have studied this motor using all the sources I could find and found a lot to like about it. > I have to take exception with this. As you have stated "Not according to Buick's info". It seems to me you are buying into the PR department's BS. Belted Airpower hasn't had a problem sealing the motor. They have flown a rebuilt 215 for over 12 years. They also put one in a RV. Shirle Dickey didn't have sealing problems (mostly interface problems and when he bored out the block too much) with a stock block. Rover continues to use the motor. Why, if the motor was a problem, did if find favor with boat racers for so many years? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: LEDs as indicators
>In order to use an LED for a warning light are there any additional >components necessary such as a resistor or DC to DC voltage convertor? > >I'm thinking I might use some LEDs for low fuel and low vacuum warning >lights. > >In addition I might susbstitute an LED for the incandescant bulb that comes >with the LR-3 regulator. LED's can be used to replace light bulbs by simply putting a resistor in series with the device to set the current through it. Most small LED's are rated at 20 milliamperes and they'll light up with about 1.8 volts across them. 13.8 - 1.8 means you need to drop 12 volts at 20 milliamps in a series resistor. 12/.02 = 600 ohms. You'll find that 560 ohms is a standard value (you need a 1/2 watt resistor) and will work for the majority of your needs. Some super bright LED's need 60 ma so the resistor drops to 200 ohms . . . but these are way too bright to be practical indicators. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Jim R. Stone" <Stonedog(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Looking for an RV-4 project/kit
Fellow Listers, I am about ready to take the RV plunge and I am looking for a good deal on the empanage and or wing kit for an RV-4. I need a wing that has not been jigged. If you know of someone looking to sell, please give them my address. Thanks for the help, Jim Stone of Louisville Harmon Rocket II Dreamer Stonedog(at)Compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: RV6 Electric Flap Control.
From: Stig Holm <stig.holm(at)klippan.mail.telia.com>
---------- > >>Hi I am building an RV6A with electric flaps. I have been told the >electric >>flaps are slow and require holding a switch until the desired position. I >>have several ways of fixing the switch holding problem, but what I really >need >>to know is, how many positions ............... OK. Its a RV you are building so why dont keep it as simple as the rest of the aircraft. This is what I will do: A three-position flap switch, "Up", "Off" and "Down", and two microswitches, one up-limit switch and one down-limit switch. The switch in the "Up" position will make the flaps go to the up-limit switch. The switch in the "Down" position will make the flaps go to the down-limit switch. If I want a flap position inbetween I simply put the switch in the "Off" position when the desired flap position is reached. A simple flap indicator is small strips of black tape on the flap skin with appropriate flap angle numbers. You have seen it on every airliner, havent you? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Loren D. Jones" <Loren(at)LorenJones.com>
Subject: Re: GYROS (but off topic)
Date: Dec 18, 1997
> >No, an autopilot mounted in the co-pilot's position would be a >Georgette. Furthermore, it would not actually be directly connected to >the controls; rather, it would indicate to you what inputs to make and >when. > Totally off topic so skip to the next message if you don't need a chuckle: On the way home from a flight with my almost-five-year-old son a few weeks ago my wife asked him if he was the co-pilot on the flight. He proudly assured her that he was. She said, "I thought I was Daddy's co-pilot?" Without a moments hesitation he spouted from the backseat, "You're not a pilot! You're a backseat driver!" Honestly....I have NO IDEA where that comment came from. Now, back on topic... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Tank nut plate problem
Denny, I don't recall that Van's supplies any stainless steel screws in the kit for this use. Irregardless, I've used many SS screws in the nutplates without any problems, so I don't think that's it. For one thing, I would think that the SS screws would strip much sooner than the nutplates, at least that is my experience with them. Are you sure that they are SS and that the threads match? Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over tightening here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided stainless screws. I recall a builder complaining of something simular to this in another area several months ago. He mentioned something as I recall about conflict between the plate nut material and stainless screws. ??? The best Holidays ever to you and yours. Denny RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Rookie rivet help
Randy, I'm sure proficient at removing rivets as I am on my second project and still occasionally find myself messing up a rivet or assembly requiring their removal. Drill the rivet head with a size smaller drill bit to a depth that the head will pop off, then continue to drill out the shank trying to keep the drill centered until the depth is through the riveted material. Then either gently bump the rear of the drill with your hand or if necessary use a pin punch to drive out the remaining rivet. On thin materials you will sometimes need to use a back-up to keep from distorting the assembly when driving out the rivet. There are rivet removing tools available but I've never tried them so can't comment on their merits. Oversized or figure eight holes really aren't acceptable IMO. I would either put in oversized rivets, extra rivets if room allows, or remove and replace the damaged parts of the assembly (replace flanges, etc., if that is possible or practical, using the methods outlined in AC43-1, etc.), or bag the whole assembly and start over, in the above order. The only way I know to learn how to keep the bucking bar held properly is by practice. Of course, using the proper bucking bar of adequate weight and configuration is also necessary. On the assemblies you are working on, it is a challenge to keep everything lined up straight and put equal pressure on the gun and bucking bar so that you don't distort the material, particularly if you are trying to hold this by yourself. If so, either fasten it firmly in place or get an assistant to help. Proper gun air pressure is also important. Practice on some scrap material like you are riveting together to get a better feel for what's happening and study the results. Hope this helps some. Good luck! Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA Listers, RV-8 #80500 builder here, in the depths of frustration. Before beginning my project I took the AirCrafters class in an attempt to learn what I was doing before starting and doing substandard work. While I did pretty well in the class I'm now doing the final riveting of my HS pieces together. Apparently I didn't learn anything - I just botched 5 rivets attaching the ribs to the forward spar and HS-404 end rib. This is depressing! I've drilled them out but I feel like I'm butchering the thing... definitely not pretty. 1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? 2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? 3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in class! Any and all help appreciated. Thanks, Randy Lervold -8, currently butchering HS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)netins.net>
Subject: Re: Unusual attitudes / IFR Flight
Date: Dec 18, 1997
>The thought of taking up panel space in a beautiful RV with an ADF is, well, >painful!! Hopefully we will see that requirement fade away in the next few >years as GPS with all its enhancements takes over. Then how will we listen to Rush on those long cross countrys? ;-) Tailwinds, -4 N240 Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com http://www.petroblend.com/dougr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: RV6 Electric Flap Control.
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
> > > >---------- >A three-position flap switch, "Up", "Off" and "Down", and two >microswitches, >one up-limit switch and one down-limit switch. The switch in the "Up" >position will make the flaps go to the up-limit switch. The switch in >the >"Down" position will make the flaps go to the down-limit switch. >If I want a flap position inbetween I simply put the switch in the >"Off" >position when the desired flap position is reached. >A simple flap indicator is small strips of black tape on the flap skin >with >appropriate flap angle numbers. You have seen it on every airliner, Hi, Everybody seems to be missing the point here. Vans flap actuator doesn't require limit switches. It simply over-runs when when it reaches its travel limit. It can be stopped in any position desired by just releasing the spring loaded center off DPDT toggle switch ( included ). If the geometry is set up correctly ( as per the plans ) the flaps will run from 0 to 40-45 degrees. Hope this makes things simpler. Best regards, Bill Davis N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Baffeling Baffles
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
>My problem is that I have had to trim the sheet metal down to about >1/4" >above the cylinder heads and I only have about 1/8" to 3/16" clearance > >from the cowl. Hi Carroll, I have the same Engine in my 4. Being wider than the 0-320, it does present a problem. I am using a plenum over the engine so the situation is not quite the same. clearence is close , but adequate. Are you sure that the upper cowling is not just a little too low ( does the top of the cowling line up with the top of the spinner ? ) Have you hung every thing on the engine yet? A constant speed prop will pull that engine down quite a bit, starter & alternator will help a little. Wish I could be more help. Regards, Bill Davis N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Vincent S. Himsl" <himsl(at)mail.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
Hello Randy, I did the same thing. I am on the VS now with much better results, but I am still so plagued by my poor job on the HS that when I get done with the airplane I will probably go back and do it correctly. What I learned.... 1. Air pressure to the rivet gun is EVERYTHING. When adjusting start from no movement of the gun head to desired setting, 30-35 psi on 3X from Avery's. For those who haven't bought the rivet gun, GET the 2X one!!! Your working on thin aluminum not steel bridge trusses. 2. Clamp the H out the piece you are working on. If it moves or vibrates, the rivets are not going to turn out. Or worse, the bucking bar will wander as well as the rivet gun. Yes I have rivet 'walks' on my HS skin. Quoting the Orndoff video, "I am a firm believer in clamping"...he uses the Vice-Grip clamps with the feet. 3. Removal of bad rivets. DON'T use the high speed air drill. Use a battery operated two speed drill or any variable speed one. You can start slowly and catch any drifting off center tendency. Most of the rivets have a center mark already on them so I haven't needed to center punch them. I use the same size drill that created the hole to begin with. The head breaks off cleaner, but you have to gauge carefully when to stop. You'll drill through the head to just before point rivet enters the skin, rib, whatever. Then you'll use a punch to gently rock and break the head off. Like bending a coat hanger till it breaks. Occasionally the rivet body will remain. Using a punch you have to gently tap, NOT pound, the rivet body on through the skin. Easier to do than to explain. 4. I was going crazy trying to figure out why I couldn't get the (-4, front spar) rivets to quit bending on me. I finally decided I was riveting straight down on them when they were in fact at a slight slant (forward HS spar) as mounted in the jig. Soooooo, thanks for your post. It is nice to know from it and the other responses that I am not alone. Best advice concerning all this came from the list and said that you should make note of your errors but move on and finish the airplane. Then when you have the airplane nearly finished, and your skills are greatly improved, the errors will be minor fixes rather than the major discouraging feeling of having to essentially start all over. You'll find the VS a little easier. I am starting the rudder and feel that I am slowly starting to get the hang of it, but then I haven't screwed it up yet! I agree about practicing on scrap, but eventually one has to start on the real thing. Yes parts are available from Van's, but ordering in small unit amounts can be expensive when you add shipping and the crating/packing fee! Regards, Vince Himsl RV80296-Rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: GYROS
> >I agree with most of your comments but you haven't considered broken >cables, which I will admit is far more common in aircraft maintained by >the trained chimps the airlines are willing to pay for (which is not to >say that is what they always get...) but what I was getting at was that >when wiring up a plane you may need to consider what would happen if a >crimp failed due to a dud terminal, fractured wire or a poorly set >crimper. Anything it could contact within the range of its restraint >should be insulated so as to ensure it does contact live components. > There's quite a bit of "unprotected" wiring in a certified airplane like the cable running from battery in tail to firewall . . . no fuses or breakers. Experience has shown that the installation techniques and ability to shield the wire from mechanical hazards is rurdimentary . . . once installed, it needs no more concern than wing spars or crankshafts . . . while not impossible, it's probability of being a hazard is VERY tiny. Why not solder your big terminals on an KNOW they're going to stay put. See <http://www.aeroelectric.com/ArtBigTerm/big_term.html> I think you'll find that in practice, it's pretty easy to eliminate all the worries for bus failures. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> raft accelerates to 150 mph, when a radio tower appears out of the backlit haze. Rolling to 55 degrees bank, you calmly pull between 1.7 and 1.8 g's on the meter to avoid scattering your ill-gotten-gain all over the countryside. You're so calm because you know that, even at this increased weight, at 1.75 g's the stall speed is a mere 146 mph, and maneuvering speed (based on 6 g's) is up at 269 mph. The wings, however, are now generating 12,600 pounds of lift--equivalent to a 7g pull at a weight of 1800 pounds. Disaster averted, you roll out (noticing the wing skin seems a little looser than it used to be; must not have heated it enough when riveting...) and drop into the escape valley--staying below radar and putting miles between you and Fort Knox. Accelerating to 170 mph, a condor suddenly looms large in the windscreen. Daring not strike such a large, endangered bird, you gently pull back on the stick until the needle in the g meter hovers between 2.2 and 2.3 g's. Piece of cake, since at this weight and g loading the stall speed is down at 165 mph, and Va is still up at 269... Heck, the wing's only generating 16,200 pounds of lift, or the equivalent of (gulp) 9 g's at the "normal" gross weight... OK, consider it this way: if maneuvering speed goes up with weight, and you flew so heavy that Va was equal to Vne, I don't believe that implies you could safely dive the airplane to just below redline and haul back on the stick with reckless abandon. Sure, the wing will stall before you register X g's on the meter, but that's because you have so much intertia the groaning wings can't generate enough force to turn you that fast. What the wing will "see" is high speed air coming at a high angle of attack, and -that- is what generates the pressure forces on the skin that become the loads in the wing spar and skins. Perhaps the load of gold will come out the bottom of the airplane before the wing skin buckles and the spar fails, but either way... My (tongue-in-cheek) suggestion: before you load up your airplane with all of that *essential* camping equipment you're sure you're going to need at Oshkosh, take a couple of backpacking trips into the mountains, enjoying the view from up high and living off what you can carry. It's amazing how much less you take on the next trip, and still seem to be just as comfortable. -------------------------------------------------- Todd Whelan RV-8 #80554 empennage parts scattered about living room floor (wahoo!) B.S. & M.S. Aeronautical Engineering ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JimNolan(at)mail.kconline.com
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Alternator Options
Another two cents (this makes 4 cents altogether) I haven't replaced the battery in my plane for the same reason I haven't replaced my wife. They still work! I do keep my engine timed and the spark plugs cleaned, and with good compression it only takes a couple of blades to start in any weather. It pays to know how to start your engine correctly though. You might want to remember that if you're cranking you're engine till the starter turns red. Every engine is different, so you might want to take time to learn how yours starts best. Approximately 99% of my flying is during the day. With all the night flying you apparently do, I would replace my engine every two years also. Or better yet go to a twin engine for better safety. I hope you take this with humor because my first two cents was about Mark Landoll, not batteries. I realize everyone have thier own experiences and thier judgements are formed by those experiences. All I was saying was that Landoll dealt with me honestly, provided me with a very good product and sold them to me at a more than reasonable price. If someone on the list didn't have luck dealing with Landoll it would surprise me greatly. Happy Flying Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Buick 215 V-8 was build your own engine
Ernesto Sanchez wrote: Ernesto, I didn't mean to imply that you were: gullible, naive or anything of the sort. I find it hard to believe that GM learned so much from that engine. They didn't even "stick it out" in developing the engine. The 215 today is an OK engine. In 1961-1963 it was not as reliable as GM would have liked. They decided to scrap the project rather than work through it's teething problems. I was merely laying out it's history. I'm sorry if I got your hackles up. > This is just for info. This is not a flame war. I have studied this motor > using all the sources I could find and found a lot to like about it. Ah! but have you ever actually taken one apart? That is also a way to study it. I liked the Buick 215. I also liked and owned 3 Corvairs. > > > I have to take exception with this. As you have stated "Not according to > Buick's info". It seems to me you are buying into the PR department's BS. snipped Rover continues to use the > motor. Why, if the motor was a problem, did if find favor with boat racers > for so many years? I said "had" not has. I stated that Rover debugged it. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV 4 Pat A <RV4PatA(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
In a message dated 12/18/97 6:38:20 AM, you wrote: >3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head > >without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? I put electrical tape on the sides of the bucking bar to help keep it from marring the material. I also let my finger tips hang over the end of the bar and remain in contact with the material. This helps steady the bar and keep it from sliding around. Last, I lay the bar on the skin next to the rivet (if there is room) to get the angle, and then move it up on to the rivet while trying to keep the same angle. This is helpful when you are not able to see what you are doing. Hope this helps Pat Allender ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Or you could use a reliable processor (DEC Alpha or a couple of NEC V30's in fail safe mode perhaps?) > ---------- > From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com[SMTP:wstucklen1(at)juno.com] > Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 12:11 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Batteries > > Stucklen) > > Allen, > > This is also true. Tandy (Radio Shack) now carries the ISD solid > state > recorder/player that has addressable/selectable audio segments that > could > be used for various alarm functions. For most people, this isn't a bad > approach as it doesn't require special development tools. > > Where voice and control functions are needed, (such as flap > controls > or alarm functions that require flashing lights or control functions) > there are more sophisticated parts available. Some are simple state > machines (ie, Winbond W529XX series) while others are full function 8 > bit > microprocessors (ie, M68HC11). Of course, we could get real fancy and > use > a single board pentium based controller and run the whole > aircraft...... > > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV > (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) > wstucklen1(at)juno.com > > > > writes: > > > >Well if you want to go fancy you could buy a solid state pocket > >recorder > >from Tandy (no tools required except to strip it down) and record > your > >own. What I had in mind was just waking the pilot up that he had a > >problem so that he would then check his alarm panel (you do have one > >of > >those don't you...) > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: RE: GYROS
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Yes, I agree but considering the possibility never hurt anyone, and if the cable is a little floppy adding a cable tie may improve the life of the machine ( and perhaps the pilot). I wish Piper has spent the time on my Cherokee so I wouldn't have to chase dodgy crimps. PS. My Cherokee was built in 1974 and has had two electrical failures related to faulty wiring in the last five years, related to fatigue failures of wiring and crimp lugs, including a fire in the overhead panel ( a very small one but...) so it can happen but it may take 20 years and 4500 hrs of operation to show up. > ---------- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III[SMTP:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] > Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 3:48 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: GYROS > > > > > > >I agree with most of your comments but you haven't considered broken > >cables, which I will admit is far more common in aircraft maintained > by > >the trained chimps the airlines are willing to pay for (which is not > to > >say that is what they always get...) but what I was getting at was > that > >when wiring up a plane you may need to consider what would happen if > a > >crimp failed due to a dud terminal, fractured wire or a poorly set > >crimper. Anything it could contact within the range of its restraint > >should be insulated so as to ensure it does contact live components. > > > There's quite a bit of "unprotected" wiring in a certified airplane > like the cable running from battery in tail to firewall . . . no > fuses or breakers. Experience has shown that the installation > techniques and ability to shield the wire from mechanical hazards > is rurdimentary . . . once installed, it needs no more concern than > wing spars or crankshafts . . . while not impossible, it's > probability > of being a hazard is VERY tiny. Why not solder your big terminals > on an KNOW they're going to stay put. > > See <http://www.aeroelectric.com/ArtBigTerm/big_term.html> > > I think you'll find that in practice, it's pretty easy to eliminate > all the worries for bus failures. > > > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > > < Show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
My first experience with tank platenuts came when I attempted to install the cad plated #8-32 flat head screws Vans supplies with the kit. In my case I was twisting the screw off in the nut plate (no they were not cross threaded). I finally started using a dollop of neversieze on the end of each screw and since then I've had no more problems with nutplates or screws -- Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
Date: Dec 18, 1997
While installing spar platenuts, I apparently cross threaded one because of a mis-alignment of the platenut to the hole. I was very surprised at how easily it stripped out. It may be a good idea to drill out the hole a bit larger than the plans call for. You'll end up with a lighter plane too. Brian Eckstein ---------- > > While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test > the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few > turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over tightening > here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided > stainless screws. I recall a builder complaining of something simular to > this in another area several months ago. He mentioned something as I recall > about conflict between the plate nut material and stainless screws. ??? > > The best Holidays ever to you and yours. > Denny RV-6 > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Rookie rivet help
Date: Dec 19, 1997
> ---------- > From: Vincent S. Himsl[SMTP:himsl(at)mail.wsu.edu] > Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 7:32 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Rookie rivet help > > > > I agree about practicing on scrap, but eventually one has to start on > the > real thing. > > Yes parts are available from Van's, but ordering in small unit amounts > can > be expensive when you add shipping and the crating/packing fee! > > Regards, > Vince Himsl > RV80296-Rudder > Just to clarify, driving a good rivet in scrap does two things: 1. Lets you get back into the swing of it. 2. Lets you check your rivet gun is set correctly and your kids haven't been playing with it. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Alternator Options
Jim Nolan wrote: > I haven't replaced the battery in my plane for the same reason I > haven't replaced my wife. They still work! The first time your battery will fail to work will almost surely be while trying to start the engine. You must have heard this sound before -- "uuuunnnhhh" I never seemed to be so lucky with autos as to have it happen at home. It always happened to me when I was in a position to pay through the nose for a battery I didn't really want. My wife has been much more dependable than my batteries. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau <MLaboyteau(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Batteries
<< Geeshhh!! why so complicated? Most of the accident scenarios I've looked into, the airplane had only load meters or a battery ammeter tucked off in a corner of the panel somewhere. Minimal instrumentation and no active warning. A very tiny but bright LED mounted right between your gyros calibrated to light below 13.0 volts is cheap, very timely and depends on no other system for it's operation (audio system and/or headset). Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection >> I've installed the RMI Micromonitor, and I'm using the B&C regulator. The RMI provides a visual and audio warning for low or no ouput current from the alternator. The B&C regulator has a low voltage warning light in the panel. Double indication! Now I'm just trying to talk my wallet into forking over the cash for the B&C alternator. Mark LaBoyteaux RV-6a N106RV Broken Arrow, OK. MLaboyteau(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6 <RICKRV6(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: -6 or -8
Oh, I'm going to get in trouble answering this one honestly. First of all I was extremely happy with my RV-6. I flew it for five years to 39 states and virtually every corner of the U.S. You cannot go wrong if you decide to build this airplane. In my case I desperately wanted to build another airplane and I really didn't want to build another -6. I found that side by side wasn't as big a deal as I originally thought. My wife did fly with me a lot but not enough to fully justify side by side (I hope there is nonattribution on the RV-List). Therefore, although I didn't mind side by side it wasn't a significant criteria. I was interested in more carrying capacity. This one is also hard to justify because the -6 will carry a lot of stuff, especially if the crew is light. Plus I wanted to go faster. Totally unjustifiable but what can I say? If you are a big guy the -8 wins hands down. I'm only 170 lbs but I've flown guys as big as 240 in the -6 and we were really cramped. The decision is like so many of the building decisions are personal preference. Rick McBride ________________________________________________________________________________
From: cecilth(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Denny, Check to make sure you didn't put some number 10 nutplates on by mistake. Cecil writes: > > While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure >test >the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few >turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over >tightening >here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided >stainless screws. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Paul Besing <rv(at)tppal.com>
Subject: Arizona RV-ers
Is there anyone here that lives in the Phoenix Area that would be willing to do some counseling with a first time RV-6A builder? I live in Scottsdale, and will receive my kit in February... Paul Besing RV-6A QB (197AB) Waiting........ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Paul Besing <rv(at)tppal.com>
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
Would you all not reccomend the Van's heater kit? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Rocky Mountian Instruments
I just finished installing the RMI engine montior, everthing seems to be working just fine. For those of you who have this system I would like to know what range limits you programed for the following oil press fuel press manifold press oil temp CHT EGT carb temp ammeter volt meter I hope programming this thing is easier than installing it Craig Hiers Gonna crank her up sunday afternoon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
<< While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over tightening here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided stainless screws. >> The screws that were provided with my 6A kit were not stainless steel. They were cad plated (without a chromate dip) pot metal or some other exceedingly low alloy steel. These are suitable for the waste can only! Get some quality MS51959-XX (I don't have the dash number for them handy) Pan Heads or stainless steel Seal Screws with buna-n 'O'-rings and a groove under the head. Check out Olander in the Yeller Pages for either of these. Also you may want to use a little molydisulphide (never-seez is one brand) on the entry threads so as to ease into those virgin nutplates. S/S can gall easily if a dry fit (ouch). -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
>While installing spar platenuts, I apparently cross threaded one because of a mis-alignment of the platenut to the hole. I was very surprised at how easily it stripped out. It may be a good idea to drill out the hole a bit larger than the plans call for. You'll end up with a lighter plane too. >Brian Eckstein Good point, Brian. It will help to prevent cross threading if you enlarge the screw hole after drilling for the nutplate (but before installation of the nutplate). Also, I put the cheap looking, aluminum colored 8-32 screws supplied with the kit in the junk drawer. They didn't seem very strong and the recesses for the screwdriver seem shoddy. I replaced the cheaper looking screws with stainless steel screws with good "+"s. I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to use allen head screws for the tank access covers? I didn't on my first RV but thought about doing this on the second. My thinking here is that it might be possible to remove the cover with sender with the tank in place. It'd be a tight fit and maybe it wouldn't work but if it would work, it would be a lot easier to remove screws with an allen wrench. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Impressions Of My New Constanst Speed Prop Compared To Wood
I took off my wood prop from my RV6A today and replaced it with a brand new Hartzell constant speed prop from VANS. When I took off with the 180 HP and constant speed prop, I felt like I was on a steam catapult on an aircraft carrier. I simply could not believe the acceleration. I did a full power run up to 2700 RPM with full throttle and released the brakes, it pushes you back against the seat like your in a corvette. By myself, I was getting sustained climb rates over 2000 feet per minute, compared to the wood prop about 1400 feet per minute. I think this has improved the safety of this plane tremendously because obstacle clearance at the end of the runway has been significantly improved ( of course compared to a skyhawk, even the wood prop was incredible ). Coming in to the pattern, the prop acts like a speed brake and you can slow from top speed to 100 mph very quickly. I use to have to cut my power a long way from the airport to get my speed down to 100 mph traffic pattern. With full flaps and the RPMs set high with low manifold pressure, this plane comes down very quickly. I can now land this plane on a much shorter length of runway than I could with the wood prop. All the people I have heard always say the wood prop is so much smoother. Well, at idle and cruise power, the hartzell constant speed is much more smoother than my wood prop was. Not to mention that the added mass of the prop helps starting too ( gets over the compression cycle easier with the flywheel effect ). Another great benefit is the added pitch stability of the plane. The extra weight swinging around acts like a big gyro and dampens out turbulence. My altimeter and vsi do not bounce around like they use to when I hit turbulence. I am sure this will help my IFR precision in this plane. Finally, my RV was tail heavy, and the 30 pound increase over my Sterba wood prop put the CG right where I wanted it. I have not done the accurate top speed runs with the new prop, but my Sterba prop was giving me 193 mph at 75% power ( verified with 2 GPS's, average of N W S E ). The Hartzell appears to be giving me at least another 6 mph over this. I'll post more accurate results as soon as the weather permits me to go up to 7500 feet in Chicago. The plane also looks much better with that big bladed Hartzell up front, and the takeoff sound of the 180 HP revving is great. ... And thank God, I don't have to varnish that wood prop any more. And I don't have to worry about prop leading edge erosion when flying through rain ... To sum it up, I am ecstatic over the constant speed prop, and would highly recommend it. Writing out that big check for the prop now doesn't seem to hurt as much. I told my wife since I now had an extra propellor and spinner, I would have to build the RV-8 so it wouldn't go to waste. I just received my RV-8 tailkit and plan to start my riveting chanting this XMAS. Happy Holidays Everybody ... Scott Johnson / Chicago rvgasj(at)mcs.com RV6A 70 HRS TT RV8A tailkit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: I've Got the Primer!
I talked to my Sherwin Williams rep (my next door neighbor) and he was happy to hear that the GBP 988 self etching primer was a hit but disappointed to hear many of you are having a tough time finding it. He sugggested calling 1-800-SW ULTRA. They should be able to provide you with a distributor in your area, they have over 150 nation wide. It is a new product so apparently some dealers don't know of it yet. If you can't convince them let me know, my neighbor said he'll ship a case if you can't get it locally. Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 tail complete, wings being ordered after the holidays ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Tank nut plate problem
> found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after >a few turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? You bet. The threaded holes have been mashed to make them oval rather than round ( I guess this is to be more like a lock nut). My solution was to run a tap part way in to make them more nearly round. I assumed that they had been mashed too much. I was scolded for doing this, that it may remove some of it's holding ability. But since everything in life is a trade off, I figured that a complete screw including the head is better than one that is stripped or no head. The plane still flys and no screws have come out yet. John Darby Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gibson Allan <Allan.Gibson(at)wmc.com.au>
Subject: Goodbye All
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Having finally gotten my part of the project I am working on signed off, I am closing down my network address (and the network it is connected to). Nice chatting with you all but all good things must come to an end. I hope to come back on line in a month or two but that will depend on my work load and how long it takes to get the phone lines run from the nearest town. So farewell and may all your takeoffs be followed by smooth landings. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernie Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com>
Subject: Re: Chevy V6 Installation
Date: Dec 12, 1997
Bob: Your cost of ownership argument was right on the money. Most people are unaware that the vaunted MERLIN engine of Mustang and Spifire fame only had a 300 HR TBO. Of course for the intended purpose that was quite sufficient since the aircraft were only expected to survive less than 100 combat hours and they had the statistical evidence to back that up. The stats tell us that the average recreational pilot only flies some 23HRs/ year. An engine with a 500 HR TBO would last this person some 20 years. Should that engine be an auto engine that can be replaced for even $5000.00 its a bargain. Consider that in Canada your $18000.00 US Lyc becomes close to $35000.00 CDN that engine reserve gets close to $20.00/hr as posed to $6.00/hr for the auto engine ($3000.00 CDN at my local dealer last week, fully dressed) . I have a 1953 170-B with an O-300 in it thnly 700HRs on a chrome major that was done 23 years ago. This engine will probably die frome age related failure long beforeI can get it to TBO ( I average 60 HRS/year). The costs for the AD's alone in the last ten years would have bought me a brand new Chevy engine. I don't for a moment suggest that the Chevy would have been maintenance free, However I wouldn't be facing the prospect of a $15000.00 CDN overhaul at some unknown time in the future since I would be replacing the 500Hr engine more frequently, flying behind a new engine most of the time, and saving money in the bargain. When the time comes for the RV motivator MINE will definitely be an Auto conversion. My $ .02 worth. Ernie Amadio e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com ---------- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Chevy V6 Installation > Date: December 9, 1997 3:55 PM > > > >We're not talking about ability to produce horsepower here. If you want to > >cite extremes, an Indy car engine produces 800+ hp from less than 250 cu/in. > >But the dang thing will only last for maybe 3 hours of intended use. > > . . . . . Continuous use at 75% power for 2000 > >hrs was not one of the design requirements for an auto engine. It simply > >isn't necessary. It was, however, at the top of the list when Lycoming and > >Continental sat down to draw up a design for the engines we typically fly > >behind today. > > There's another consideration that may have been discussed, beg your > pardon if I missed it. Consider the possiblity that a direct comparison > of any other engine to a contemporary engine may not be appropriate. > Suppose we bound the discussions on "reliablity" with a need for the machine > to wear out in an orderly fashion without catestrophic failures. If it > can be overhauled for a reasonable price, then the trade-offs can be > expressed in cost of ownership evaluation. > > Recall that some of the early Rotax offerings touted a TBO of something > on the order of 400 hours . . . but could be overhauled in a weekend > with ordinary hand tools for $1,200 worth of parts. Hmmmm . . . $3/hr > engine reserves + 20 hours labor every 8 years (50 hours/year usage) > doesn't seem like too bad a deal to me. > > It seems that the practical goals have to strive for a configuration > that tends to wear out without breaking and THEN see what the costs > of ownership are. A low TBO engine is not necessarily an unreliable > engine nor is it necessarily undesirable either. > > > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > ================================= > <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Subject: Mark Landoll
For the record, I am using a Landoll supplied starter and alternator on my -6. No problems in 200 hours. The electronics are first rate but I still stand behind what I posted, the workmanship is crude - not necessarily bad - just rough. I have installed, or have been involved in the installation of other parts supplied by Mark for friends RVs, and its always the same old story...file it, beat it and curse it until it fits. By the time you get the parts to fit right you could have made 'em your self. You get what you pay for. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Impressions Of My New Constanst Speed Prop Compared To Wood
Wow! 2000 fpm what I like! Now, how much does the airplane weigh total? hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Devlin" <jdevlin(at)americus.net>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Dec 18, 1997
Fred, Are you suggesting that we incoporate voice technologies used in toy manufacturung for audio warnings? Where would you best use responses like, "Oops," " Mama," "Good night," and "I love you" in your instrumentation? Just kidding! Best regards, John ---------- > From: Frederic w Stucklen <wstucklen1(at)juno.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Batteries > Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:49 AM > > > > writes: > > >Why doesn't anyone wire alarms into their audio circuit? > >It's very easy to do, all it needs is a cheap battery powered > >oscillator > >circuit if your panel alarms don't have an audio output, and an accept > >button to cancel it. > >With noise cancelling headsets this is absolutely essential as is some > >thing like a master caution light if you don't like headsets. > > Actually, audio output alarms could have speech as well as the standard > boops and bops. The technologies used in the talking check lists coudl be > installed, at very little cost, to output directly into the audio panel! > (We do it all the time in the toy industry) A talking modual costs under > $10.00....... BUT, one needs the proper development tools.... > > > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV > (Working on second RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) > wstucklen1(at)juno.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
22> <1.5.4.16.19971218095814.375f8ac8(at)proaxis.com> <1.5.4.16.19971218095814.375f8ac8(at)proaxis.com> > >While installing spar platenuts, I apparently cross threaded one because of >a mis-alignment of the platenut to the hole. Brian, ... I bet you weren't using a plate nut jig to drill those holes ...:^) Since the holes are usually drilled to #19 (as per plans) and a 8-32 screw has a body drill size of #18, this means that the tolerance of the two rivet holes has to be better than 0.005 inches. If you are using the "hold the nutplate in place and drill" technique, or the "use a 1/8 cleco, it sort of fits" technique, the odds are that a measurable fraction of your nutplates will suffer the mis-alignment you mention due to a build up of tolerance errors. Using the correct tool gets around this problem (surprise ...:^), so go out and buy a #8 nutplate jig. This jig can also be used for the few #10 nutplates if you start out with a #19 hole, drill the two #40 rivet holes, and then enlarge the center hole to #12. This jig can be a real time saver when you start working on the fuselage with it's many #8 nutplates. ... Gil (use the right tool) Alexander ... >I was very surprised at how easily it stripped out. It may be a good idea >to drill out the hole a bit larger than the plans call for. You'll end up >with a lighter plane too. > >Brian Eckstein > >---------- >> >> While installing the access plate on the gas tanks to pressure test >> the tanks, found 8 of the 24 8-32 nut plates that stripped after a few >> turns. Has anyone ran into this problem? I'm not talking over tightening >> here but after a few turns into the plate nut. I used the provided >> stainless screws. I recall a builder complaining of something simular to >> this in another area several months ago. He mentioned something as I recall >> about conflict between the plate nut material and stainless screws. ??? >> >> The best Holidays ever to you and yours. >> Denny RV-6 ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701, finishing kit "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Alex Peterson <alexpeterson(at)MCI2000.com>
Subject: Nutplates
Regarding nutplates, I believe they have much more ovality in the thread area than is needed. The torque required to simply drive them is probably more than the recommended tightening torque! Prior to installing nutplates, I take an appropriately set Vise-Grip and remove much of the ovality. One clamp per nutplate is all it takes. What I end up with is sort of a slightly squared circle, with plenty of anti-backout torque remaining. Running screws into unmodified fuel tank nutplates could leave a little pile of metal shavings in the bottom of the tank. If there is any concern about screws inadvertantly backing out, one can use a suitable loctite. Alex Peterson (6A finishing kit with new cowls in garage!) Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Bob Haan <bobh(at)cdac.com>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
>>While installing spar platenuts, I apparently cross threaded one because of >a mis-alignment of the platenut to the hole.....> > > Also, I put the cheap looking, aluminum colored 8-32 screws supplied with >the kit in the junk drawer..... I wonder if it wouldn't be a good >idea to use allen head screws for the tank access covers? I didn't on my >first RV but thought about doing this on the second. My thinking here is >that it might be possible to remove the cover with sender with the tank in >place. It'd be a tight fit and maybe it wouldn't work but if it would work, >it would be a lot easier to remove screws with an allen wrench. > >Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com > Bob, For both the access plate and the fuel sender plate I replaced the AN515-8R8 screws with AN3-4A bolts. See RV6 drawing 18a. To do this, I replaced the K1000-08 platenuts with K1000-3 platenuts and drilled #12 holes instead of #19. John Morgan at Van's thought this was a good alteration. He sent me all the necessary hardware. I like the result and would recommend it. I believe the bolts and the access plates well be able to be removed with a socket wrench while the wings are on. Bob Haan bobh(at)cdac.com Portland, OR 503-579-2729 RV6A 24461 Fuse out of jig, working on mounting tail ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Brian Huffaker <huffaker(at)utw.com>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Gil Alexander wrote: > [snip discussion of misaligned nutplates] > Using the correct tool gets around this problem (surprise ...:^), > so go out and buy a #8 nutplate jig. This jig can also be used for the few > #10 nutplates if you start out with a #19 hole, drill the two #40 rivet > holes, and then enlarge the center hole to #12. This jig can be a real > time saver when you start working on the fuselage with it's many #8 nutplates. > I always just drill the center hole the final size, then put the nutplate on, holding it with a screw, and drill the #40 thru the nutplate. Seems to work for me, don't have to go find a jig. Brian Huffaker, DSWL (huffaker(at)utw.com) President and Founder Friends of P-Chan RV-8 80091 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: morristec(at)icdc.com
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: DAR SERVICE
When I'm finished I hope the feds can issue my RV>certificate and I hope the person who shows up knows something about RV's RV>and doen't try to nit-pick it to pieces (as we've read about in the RV>archives). Come on FAA, either do the inspections yourselves or authorize RV>more good, knowledgeable DAR's. The EAA is tracking problems with obtaining FAA personnel to issue the airworthiness certificate. The primary offices tasked within the FAA to perform this function are the Manufacturing Inspection District Offices (MIDO). In many areas the MIDOs are a distance from the applicants as there are only about 15 such offices throughout the country. The FSDOs cover for them for the issuance of the Experimental airworthiness certificate in some cases. The DAR's are a way for 1) the FAA to provide the required service to industry, and 2) a way to get industry to fund the need directly. Sometimes you can be served better by a DAR, both in quality and timliness. But justifiably so, you have to pay. The DAR dedicates a significant effort to maintaining his designation. The FAA budgeting is based on demand. The EAA hopes to track and determine if there is a higher need than the FAA can reliabily service. I work directly with many people in the MIDOs and they to would like to justify people to service industry. As for our needs just being a "hobby", I think that my tax dollars are just as good as the next guys. The FAA issues airworthiness certificates for everything that flies, why should we be different? Please contact EAA with your problems with obtaining Airworthiness certificates so that they can help make it better for all of us. Dan Morris RV6 almost there, forever. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)juno.com
Subject: RV-8 Gross wt q's
Date: Dec 19, 1997
writes: >Also a description of maneuvering speed is a condition where the airplane >is stalled at 4.4 g's with no flaps. Steve: Whats the differance in using flaps at Gross vs no flaps for landing. Does my stall speed go down with fllaps, but the load on the structure rise? Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx~~ that justs fits the hole, If you are lucky you can work in a bending movement & pop the head off & not change the hole. Then punch the rivet on out. >3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop head? I pre align the bar, then set the gun angle, then go back & watch the bar. I have found that masking tape on the rivet set gives a clean surface on the skin. If at all possible, use your bucking buddy. Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
>For both the access plate and the fuel sender plate I replaced the >AN515-8R8 screws with AN3-4A bolts. See RV6 drawing 18a. To do this, I >replaced the K1000-08 platenuts with K1000-3 platenuts and drilled #12 >holes instead of #19. >I like the result and would recommend it. I believe the bolts and the >access plates well be able to be removed with a socket wrench while the >wings are on. > >Bob Haan Bob, An even better idea than cap screws. Maybe someone who has their wings mounted will see if they can remove their access cover and get the whole assembly out. If not, there may be no reason to do the above. Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rookie rivet help
62,64,70,72,76-92
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 19, 1997
I think this discussion has already been pounded to death (grin) but I thought I would add a couple of things that haven't been mentioned. >1. What is the preferred method for removing rivets? Besides everything mentioned previously I will add - Try not to drill out rivets from the shop head side unless you have no choice, often times the head forms just slightly off center which makes it hard to know where the hole center is. When we used to do the builders class at Van's we recommended that beginners use a variable speed drill (cordless or not) that can be run very slowly until you get more experience. Use a new (sharp) drill bit. Often you will distort/damage the material (if it is thin like rib flanges etc.) if you attempt to drive a rivet out. I suggest to beginners that after drilling and snapping off the head as described previously, drill down the center of the shank of the rivet, but not all the way through (also described previously). Now instead of driving out the remaining portion, use a sharp set of side cutters, grab the shop head of the rivet and (this step is important) twist it to rotate it slightly in the hole. after rotating it slightly you should be able to pry it out of the hole with very little distortion. If you are removing rivets that are in thick materials like longerons or brackets they can be very hard to drive out with a punch, but remove quite easily this way. If the rivet is over driven so that the shop head is very thin then you will probably have to drive it out. >2. How much of an oversize or figure 8 hole is acceptable? A SLIGHTLY over sized hole is probably ok if you can still do a quality job of driving a rivet in it. Another option would be use the next larger size in rivets (5/32 in place of a 1/8) if the hole is badly ovule in shape. In locations as you described (rib flange to stab spar, you could make a small doubler/backing plate out of scrap that would have correct sized round holes and sandwich the rib flange between it and the spar web. >3. How do I keep the bucking bar steady so as to get a decent shop >head >without angles and without denting the thin rib/spar material? Takes practice but here is some more suggestions from our class that might help. Make sure the parts you are riveting on are immobilized on your work surface so you aren't trying to hold them and rivet at the same time. (Clamp them, use small sand bags to weight them down, what ever works for the situation) Use only enough air pressure to drive the rivet. In our shop we don't change the line pressure (wastes too much time) it runs at 100 PSI + all the time. We use the pressure regulator that you can buy from Avery tools and screw directly into the air port of the gun. It has a very fine adjustment one small click at a time. Builders that showed up at class with the ball valve/swivel type regulator we suggested that they throw it in the bottom of there tool box and not even think of using it on there rivet gun. Use the longest driving time possible for the gun that you are using. This requires you to control the bucking bar for a longer period but it is easier to control because the gun is not pounding so hard. Ideal is for the rivet to finish driving completely just as it is becoming work hardened. I recommend that builders try to adjust their gun regulator so that with the trigger fully pulled it takes about 3 seconds for the rivet to be driven (practice counting thousand one, thousand two, thousand three) Three seconds doesn't sound long but it is much longer than most beginners are using to drive rivets. BTW if you are looking for that perfectly smooth skin finish on your RV, using the 3 second rule with a 2X gun and at least a 1 inch diam flush rivet set will go a long way towards helping you achieve it. As for the bucking bar, as mentioned before; when possible use bucking bars that allow you to have fingers overhang all sides slightly to help you stabilize it, and with your fingers detect whether you are holding it flat or not. Hope these other hints may also be of help to some one. > >Man, this sure seems tougher than it did on the simple projects in >class! >Any and all help appreciated. > >Thanks, >Randy Lervold >-8, currently butchering HS Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: soundproofing materials battle noise
Did some research a few years ago for a project at work; the fans in a machine we built were making too much noise. My task was to quiet them down. Tried all sorts of materials and approaches and learned that there's only four paths to success: 1. Deaden the surfaces that act as sounding boards. Painting asphalt or something similar on them is like taking the back out of a violin; it removes the surface that pushes the air around. Drawback? Heavy, messy to apply and unsightly. 2. Don't let the sound out. This is really tough to do. First off, you have to enclose 100% of the sound generator. Put a noise maker in a perfectly insulated box 12 inches on a side and you get perfect quiet....drill a 1 inch hole and you get 80% of the noise. Don't believe it? Ever notice that closing a door into a noisy room doesn't do much to kill the sound if it's left slightly ajar? Close it that last 1/4" and the noise drops dramatically.....However, even if you wrap the racket up tightly the noise can be transmitted along a metal surface into another compartment...go to option 1. 3. Kill the source of the noise. Not an option unless you're flying a motorglider. 4. The most for the money/effort is mount noise makers on sound damping materials and then mount those onto the frame...if you've got the room and a material that's suitable. Actually, this is really option 2. Oh and one last option. ANR headphones. Lighter than asphalt, more effective than insulation, and a lot easier than engineering a variety of mounts. And don't forget a muffler. s'easy and cheap. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6ToBuild <RV6ToBuild(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: RV6 Electric Flap Control
I wasn't aware that some of you were into electronics, I guess thats what I get for thinking. I will give you all a little more detail into the design I am working on. I am using a Basic Stamp microprocessor. It has an EEPROM with enough room for 100 instructions. It also has 8 bit I/O, this could be demux into 256 different lines, but I don't think this will be nessasary though. I am going to use a pot as feedback from the flaps and a rotary switch for the selector. Of course this will require an A-D and an D-A converter. The flap pos ind could be anything from a analog meter to lamps to an LCD or could even talk to you in your headset "FLAPS TEN" "FLAPS TWENTY". However I do beleave in the KISS method and think an analog meter would be just fine. I worked with compairators for a while, but there is some major logic problems to overcome. With a microprocessor that understands Basic, the logic problems are gone. The cost for the Basic Stamp is around 35 bucks. I am also going to use a couple of power transistors to drive the actuator and install push buttons in parallel with the transistors as a back up system. This all mite sound like to much, but this design uses the least amount of moving parts. After I complete this design I may have enough ROM space for a advisory caution panel and/or fuel quantity. If someone wanted autoflaps you could tie a pressure transducer into the pitot line and write some software for it pooof, you have auto flaps TOO MUCH ? Maybe ----------- Maybe not. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcowens126 <Rcowens126(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Battery
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com> >> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery >>Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:11 PM >In resopnse to the Milfred post: Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:11 PMCharles N609CG wrote (snip) >> My 6A has a false floor in the front so I can also pass under that up to the firewall. Also, I'm not amiliar with a bulkhead connector for the firewall. Where do we acquire this item.>> For the life of me I can not see any justification for adding a firewall connector for the battery feeder to the starter. An insulated feed-thru will suffice and be far more reliable for numerous reasons. Connectors are used where equipment is anticipated to be removed frequently and several circuits make the likelihood of mis-wiring terminal block, etc unacceptable. Connectors are trouble spots. IMHO, no breaks in the high power wiring is the best way to KISS. R.Owens 42 years at aircraft electrical design, A&P, FAA DER and accident investigator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Nutplates
> Regarding nutplates, I believe they have much more ovality in the thread > area than is needed. The torque required to simply drive them is probably > more than the recommended tightening torque! Prior to installing > nutplates, I take an appropriately set Vise-Grip and remove much of the > ovality. Get yourself some Boelube from Avery. It comes packaged somewhat like deodorant and is used for drilling, milling and many other things. Put a little on the threads of the screws and they go into the nutplates with ease. Stops the galling of the threads. This has got to be better than modifying the nutplate. Gary Zilik RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: RE: GYROS
<< I agree with most of your comments but you haven't considered broken cables, which I will admit is far more common in aircraft maintained by the trained chimps the airlines are willing to pay for >> Bob. What the hell is this! I happen to be one of those highly trained chimps and think I am pretty damn good at what I do! I dont think we need to be stereo typing here. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Timed tanks
<< It takes a safe pilot to have safety in an airplane regardless of how much fuel is available! >> I don't think I could have said that better, myself. If we don't have enough common sense to monitor our gauges, do we have the common sense to be flying? I was taught to scan the engine instruments and fuel gauges, every 15 to 30 seconds, and that was only for a ground run up. How often should we scan them when we are flying? How often do you check your oil pressure? How about CHT, EGT? Then what about MAP, RPM, and all of that? Should we not check our fuel gauges just as often? I'd think it would all be a part of the "panel scan." Someone said; "Flying is supposed to be fun!" But at the expense of what? Safety? Every time you look at your oil pressure, look at your fuel quantity too. Make sure you got what you need. Build safe, and fly safe. Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM Slave to the "Junkyard Dog" RV-4, S/No 4239 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: gyros
<< RAT or (Ram Air Turbine) >> On the 757, or 767, which are relatively "new" Boeing airplanes, the RAT may well produce hydraulic pressure. However, on some of the older Boeing and Douglas airplanes, hydraulic pumps that can operate flight controls and other hydraulic equipment are, and can be operated by electrical power, which is what the RAT provides on those particular types. Different airplanes--different procedures and different functions. Hmmm. Go figure. Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM Active A&P Technician ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Denny Harjehausen <harje(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Tank nut plate problem
. Are you sure that they are SS and that the >threads match? > >Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA I believed they were stainless, but on checking I think they were some material. The screws are all the same and 16 out of the 24 seated fine, which lead me to believe they were the right screws and either the nut plates were faulty or maybe the screws were to short. On examination of the the offending screws the threads were fine. I ran a tap in to the errant holes which went in without a problem and seemed to hold nicely when tugged on. So I took a nut plate down and bought longer stainless thinking that was the problem. Not it, still just popped back as I screwed. So something else is wrong. ( I'll hate to find it is me.) Being nicely "Prosealed" in nut plates isn't something I personally consider a welcome challenge. So this morning off comes the cover plates and I will try some of your good suggestions. The bolt suggestion sounded like a good idea. If it is not something simple (like me) i will probably take them all out and install the bolts. Thanks All! The best Holidays ever to you and yours. Denny RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Batteries
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
writes: > >Fred, > Are you suggesting that we incoporate voice technologies used in toy >manufacturung for audio warnings? Where would you best use responses >like, "Oops," " Mama," "Good night," and "I love you" in your >instrumentation? > Just kidding! >Best regards, >John Naw, I was thinking more like machine gun sounds or lazar blasts as I turned onto someone elses tail! Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Orndorff G <OrndorffG(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountian Instruments
Craig, The limits are set to what engine you have you need to look your ngine and see what the limits are....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Battery
<< My 6A has a false floor in the front so I can also pass under that up to the firewall. Also, I'm not amiliar with a bulkhead connector for the firewall. Where do we acquire this item.>> For the life of me I can not see any justification for adding a firewall connector for the battery feeder to the starter. An insulated feed-thru will suffice and be far more reliable for numerous reasons. >> I agree with your statement about not using a connector. The reasons for the connector are as follows: One pc wire scenario: Lets say that the a/c vibrates a bit. How long do you suppose the rubber grommet will last holding this pc of wire away from the sharp edge of the firewall? Do you want to be in the pilots seat when it chafes thru and contacts the stainless steel? I don't. I haven't seen a suitable insulator for this area that is also fireproof and inexpensive. Second scenario: How long should the cable extand past the firewall? A bulkhead connector will allow you to make the starter cable the exact length it needs to be. The part I use is from Summit Racing (800-230-3939) and it is p/n SUM-G1431, costing $9.39. It has a machined brass post, and it comes with 5/16" brass nuts for each side. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)icsnet.com>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountian Instruments
>I just finished installing the RMI engine montior, everthing seems to >be working just fine. >For those of you who have this system I would like to know what range >limits you programed for the following >oil press 25 psi. That's Lycoming's min pressure at idle >fuel press 1 psi. You may see the displayed pressure drop to 0 psi and set off the alarm with the boost pump off. I spoke with Van's about this and they indicated that it was normal. This is only an issue when flying after the tanks have been topped off. Fuel may drain back into the vent system and cause a slight vacuum. Just keep the boost pump on below 1000' AGL and keep an eye on the fuel flow. If you have positive fuel flow, you know that the engine is getting fuel. The minimum fuel pressure according to Lycoming is 0.5 PSI, which the micromonitor will not display. >manifold press >oil temp >CHT 230 deg C. This is the max recommended by Lycoming for longevity of the cylinders and is 20 deg C below the red line of 250 C. I personally want the alarm to sound just prior to red line. >EGT >carb temp 1 deg C >ammeter 2 amps. Even with minimal equipment on (master relay, fuel gauges, engine monitor), it always indicates at least 4 amps. I set the alarm to sound if the alternator were to fail. >volt meter > >I hope programming this thing is easier than installing it Programming should only take a few minutes. Just keep an accurate log of actual fuel used and engine monitor fuel used. This will help calibrate the flow meter. My fuel flow indication increases about 1.0 GPH with the boost pump on. Keep this in mind when trying to calibrate the flow meter. > >Craig Hiers >Gonna crank her up sunday afternoon > Good luck. Scott Gesele N506RV - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: Battery
Mlfred wrote: > > > > << My 6A has a false floor in the front so I can > also pass under that up to the firewall. Also, I'm not amiliar with a > bulkhead connector for the firewall. Where do we acquire this item.>> I used plastic industrial flex conduit and ran it out the side through the -4 bubbles so I would not have to put holes in the firewall. All the wiring and battery cables go through it. Worked great. John Kitz N721JK 190 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: RV4 Chrome Rollbar
Well, my rollbar is BLACK (powder coated actually; looks good, tough finish). I thought a chrome roll bar would be really cool looking, too. Then, one sunny day, I rode back seat in an RV-4 with a cool looking chrome rollbar and MAN, is there a LOT of reflection on the canopy from the thing. Looks like a house of mirrors. Sort of "obstructs" the visability. Not a factor for us front seaters, but something to consider for the GIBs (girls/guys in back). Even one painted gloss black reflects an awful amount, but much less so. Just my $0.02. Michael RV-4 232 Suzie Q FLYING! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: jim jewell <jjewell(at)okanagan.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Elevator Trim
>> I have been >> flying my 4 for 3.5 years with electic trim and like it alot. > Ryan > >I agree >I had the opportunity to fly my RV-6 about 400 hrs with the manual trim >and about 400 hrs with the elec. I would not go back to manual >Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR "snip" I'm not sure if I sent this when I thought I did, so once again <:~\ I have not seen so far, any reference to the weight of the elevator trim cable and the fact that much of its weight is behind c. of g.. I don't have a cable to weigh but noted my friend's cable seemed much heavier than the whole ee trim kit, box included. Could this help in some decision making out there. BTW. my trim tab kit went on just fine. after reading some recent complaints, I'm wondering how much trim tab movement guys are expecting to see. Be cautious about adding strength, it's penalty is weight. Particularly that far back on any airframe. jim - wings, flaps, ailerons, half done. When dreams come true the sky's the limit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery
>I agree with your statement about not using a connector. The reasons for the >connector are as follows: > >One pc wire scenario: Lets say that the a/c vibrates a bit. How long do you >suppose the rubber grommet will last holding this pc of wire away from the >sharp edge of the firewall? Do you want to be in the pilots seat when it >chafes thru and contacts the stainless steel? I don't. I haven't seen a >suitable insulator for this area that is also fireproof and inexpensive. There are tens of thousands of airplanes that use the grommet and grommet shield technique for penetration of firewalls on battery/ starter wires (BIG guys). The REASON for grommets is to take a wire through a metalic barrier and prevent vibration from working the barrier against the wire's primary insulation. The grommet then gets shielded to preserve the firewall's integrity as a FIREwall. The reason that heavy conductors in light aircraft have never received any sort of fault protection (fuses/breakers) at the battery is two fold . . . (1) protection of these conductors from untimely faults by design and fabrication is EASY . . . you don't worry about wing spars and flight controls because they've been designed and built to have failure probabilities in the very, VerY, VERY tiny numbers. It's not hard to do the same for FAT wires. (2) FAT wires don't get hard faults that produce sustained shorts. When an edge of sheet metal cuts through a battery cable, the momentary fault currents are high . . . hundreds of amps and the faults clear by burning away the edge of the metal. The combination of these features is why a bizzilion certified ships have no battery cable fuses and they use grommets. I was at Cessna when during the second year of production, we pulled a multi-point modification (at Cessna expense) of all C177's in the field. One mod was to replace the supporting techniques for the battery cable under the floorboards to push probability of harsh failure into the tiny numbers. One just never hears of a properly installed cable being a problem. >Second scenario: How long should the cable extand past the firewall? A >bulkhead connector will allow you to make the starter cable the exact length >it needs to be. Make it a foot too long and trim on final termination. . . . >The part I use is from Summit Racing (800-230-3939) and it is p/n SUM-G1431, >costing $9.39. It has a machined brass post, and it comes with 5/16" brass >nuts for each side. . . . . . . and adds more milliohms of drop in the cranking path along with more parts count. If you do use this device, find some brass lock nuts or use thread locker during final installation. Torqe to specs for material and thread pitch. Add the rubber booties over each end of the post which are new, exposed, always-hot conductors. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil(at)pressenter.com>
Subject: Re: Nutplates
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Fellow Listers: Try dipping your screws in beeswax just before driving them into "virgin" nutplates. Seems to help tremendously. Doug Weiler, MN Wing > >Regarding nutplates, I believe they have much more ovality in the thread >area than is needed. The torque required to simply drive them is probably >more than the recommended tightening torque! Prior to installing >nutplates, I take an appropriately set Vise-Grip and remove much of the >ovality. One clamp per nutplate is all it takes. What I end up with is >sort of a slightly squared circle, with plenty of anti-backout torque >remaining. > >Running screws into unmodified fuel tank nutplates could leave a little >pile of metal shavings in the bottom of the tank. If there is any concern >about screws inadvertantly backing out, one can use a suitable loctite. > >Alex Peterson (6A finishing kit with new cowls in garage!) >Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Nutplates
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Stores and catalogs that carry supplies for those who hand load rifle and pistol cartridges carry "resizing" lubrication products. This lube on the screw threads also helps a lot. Use very little, it goes a long way. Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont -----Original Message----- Try dipping your screws in beeswax just before driving them into "virgin" nutplates. Seems to help tremendously. Doug Weiler, MN Wing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
<3.0.1.16.19971217223550.11a7959e(at)dtc.net>
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:35:50 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" writes: > >> > How about a potentiometer on the flap mechanism . . . to drive > a flap position indicator . . . and then two LM311 comparators, > a couple of power FETS and two relays plus another pot. You can > "dial" in any flap setting you want and have it drive to that > setting. Flap switch would have an AUTO, UP, OFF and DOWN positions > with the non-auto postions providing manual control. Bill of > materials is under $10. Flap indicator is another $7 for a > surplus, minature panel meter. > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > Somebody else replied "Why not use an MC33030?" I looked up this part and it would work very nicely as an analog flap controller with the addition of an anolog meter (like the one MAC has) for the flap position. It's a DC Servo motor Controller/Driver IC. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrownTool <BrownTool(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Sheetmetal Tool Website
Our BRAND NEW Web site of Aircraft Sheetmetal Tools is up and running ! Please visit our On-Line Catalog featuring all of the products found in our regular print catalog. Visit us at: http://www.browntool.com Please visit the site and let us know what you think. We are customer driven and appreciate any comments. Happy Holidays to All ! Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. Bethany, OK 1-800-587-3883 BrownTool(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Drill Bit Sharpening
Hello all, and Happy Holidays! What are the rest of you using to sharpen drill bits? Especially the smaller sizes (#40). I spoke with Cleaveland's, and they no longer carry the Drill Doctor. I bought a similar appliance at Home Depot, but it is just about worthless. Thanks in advance for any input Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 "Either Raise Your Skill Level... or Lower Your Standards" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
I've found that the best thing to use is a combonation of the trash can and a bin full of new bits. Chris > > What are the rest of you using to sharpen drill bits? Especially the > smaller sizes (#40). I spoke with Cleaveland's, and they no longer > carry the Drill Doctor. I bought a similar appliance at Home Depot, but > it is just about worthless. > > Thanks in advance for any input > Larry > > -- > Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport > lhoatson(at)empirenet.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Rob Rimbold <rimbold(at)flinet.com>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
> What are the rest of you using to sharpen drill bits? Especially the > smaller sizes (#40). I spoke with Cleaveland's, and they no longer > carry the Drill Doctor. I bought a similar appliance at Home Depot, but > it is just about worthless. > > Thanks in advance for any input > Larry > I've found that the best thing to use is a combonation of the trash can > and a bin full of new bits. > > Chris I tried a Drill Doctor a couple days ago, on several sizes of drill bits. It did a decent job on larger drill bits, but on #30 and #40 it wasn't so good. Other people have told me that drill sharpeners are generally ineffective on such small drill bits, and that the best thing to do is buy more bits. I'm still looking for another sharpener, but in the meantime I've got to agree. 'Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barnes, Eric" <eric.barnes(at)tandem.com>
Subject: RE: SW GBP 988 Primer
Date: Dec 19, 1997
A quick comment - you MUST go to an automotive finishes Sherwin Williams store. Around the Bay Area there are SW stores that have the Wash Primer in gallon cans that you have to mix (I don't use it, so I don't know the name). However, they are not familiar with the GBP 988. I tried 3 stores, and until I found the auto finishes store in San Jose, no one had a clue. ALSO NOTE - this primer does NOT contain the zinc chromate type chemical that is in the stuff that comes in gallon cans and needs to be mixed. Hope this isn't too unclear (again, sorry I don't know the correct SW Wash Primer name). EB #80131 elevators (almost done) I talked to my Sherwin Williams rep (my next door neighbor) and he was happy to hear that the GBP 988 self etching primer was a hit but disappointed to hear many of you are having a tough time finding it. He sugggested calling 1-800-SW ULTRA. They should be able to provide you with a distributor in your area, they have over 150 nation wide. It is a new product so apparently some dealers don't know of it yet. If you can't convince them let me know, my neighbor said he'll ship a case if you can't get it locally. Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 tail complete, wings being ordered after the holidays ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
've installed the RMI Micromonitor, and I'm using the B&C regulator. The >RMI provides a visual and audio warning for low or no ouput current from the >alternator. The B&C regulator has a low voltage warning light in the panel. >Double indication! Now I'm just trying to talk my wallet into forking over the >cash for the B&C alternator. I think you're COVERED . . . now, just stay out of ice and we'll expect to hear lots of travelog posts from you. I know the B&C package is a little breathtaking but one of the items in their STC paperwork is the notation that over 1,000 ship sets are flying and assuming only 100 hours per shipset, the B&C alternator has accumulated over 100,000 flight hours of experience. Except for a couple of manufacturing problems that were whipped years ago, the rate of return for anything but owner induced damage has been ZERO. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Alan Carroll <carroll(at)geology.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Unusual attitudes / IFR Flight
>> I was able to get the rating in 6 months, which included some >>instrument changes and an ADF installation. It just means flying more >>often..... > > >The thought of taking up panel space in a beautiful RV with an ADF is, well, >painful!! Hopefully we will see that requirement fade away in the next few >years as GPS with all its enhancements takes over. I thought the checkride requirement was simply that you demonstrate three different types of approaches? If so, a published GPS should be an acceptable substitute for the NDB approach. Once you've got your ticket, I think the FAR's say only that your radios be "appropriate to the facilities being used", or some such language. I think the ADF is required only if you want to fly NDB approaches. Alan Carroll RV-8 #80177 (Wings) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
Larry, It's a bit disappointing to here that about Cleveland. I have a Drill Doctor that I purchased from them and I find it the best bit sharpener I own. I think I have 5 or six, and thats the only one I use. I think I would try to find out where you can get one. I'll look on the box and see if I can get the address or phone # for you. Al (It's hard to make a comeback when you haven't been anywhere.) > >Hello all, and Happy Holidays! > >What are the rest of you using to sharpen drill bits? Especially the >smaller sizes (#40). I spoke with Cleaveland's, and they no longer >carry the Drill Doctor. I bought a similar appliance at Home Depot, but >it is just about worthless. > >Thanks in advance for any input >Larry > >-- >Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport >lhoatson(at)empirenet.com > >Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 > "Either Raise Your Skill Level... or Lower Your Standards" > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 1997
From: EDWARD HASCH JR <hasch(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: subscribe rv list request
EDWARD HASCH JR wrote: > > subscribe rv list hasch(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Options
> I haven't replaced the battery in my plane for the same reason I >haven't replaced my wife. They still work! If you don't EXPECT a battery to supply useful flight time sans alternator, then by all means, run-it-til-it-dies. I fly a number of airplanes that have no electrics and since all I fly is rentals, I don't EXPECT any of those batteries to really be there all the time either. >I do keep my engine timed and the spark plugs cleaned, and with good >compression it only takes a couple of blades to start in any weather. This is more important than most pilots know. Brush life on a starter is about 10 HOURS . . . battery life is directly impacted by the number of watt-seconds per discharge cycle. An engine that starts quickly can make a BIG difference in useful life of battery, starter, ring gears, etc. >It pays to know how to start your engine correctly though. You might >want to remember that if you're cranking you're engine till the >starter turns red. Every engine is different, so you might want to >take time to learn how yours starts best. MY rental J-3 at Benton airport was really picky . . . I took special pains to research and then instruct our pilots in starting techniques . . . I could always get it going on the first, nonchalant pull on a blade. Sometimes I'd let a pilot get all tired out and sweaty before I'd walk out and do my magic thing . . . it didn't take long to make the point. > Approximately 99% of my flying is during the day. With all the >night flying you apparently do, I would replace my engine every two >years also. Why? Engines can be observed and measured . . . Compression, oil consumption, funny noises, valve stuck, etc. If you take the time and trouble to "measure" a battery, then one can use it down to what ever level of performance meets your personal flying needs. If you EXPECT the battery to be your backup source of energy and cannot or don't want to measure the battery, THEN replace it every two years. . . . >Or better yet go to a twin engine for better safety. Won't touch that one with a 10-foot pole! I did enough single engine work in our company Barron some years back to decide that the most survivable course of action was "close 'em both and take whatever was straight ahead" . . . . I really regretted trading in our cherry A-36 for the P-Baron. . . . > I hope you take this with humor because my first two cents was >about Mark Landoll, not batteries. I realize everyone have thier own >experiences and thier judgements are formed by those experiences. > All I was saying was that Landoll dealt with me honestly, provided >me with a very good product and sold them to me at a more than >reasonable price. If someone on the list didn't have luck dealing >with Landoll it would surprise me greatly. Happy Flying What I've seen of Mark's products gives me no great cause for concern . . . there's obviously a market niche for his parts and if you're happy with him then I'm happy for you. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
With practice and a light touch you can do it freehand. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Sloppy workmanship . . .
>Yes, I agree but considering the possibility never hurt anyone, and if >the cable is a little floppy adding a cable tie may improve the life of >the machine ( and perhaps the pilot). I wish Piper has spent the time on >my Cherokee so I wouldn't have to chase dodgy crimps. >PS. My Cherokee was built in 1974 and has had two electrical failures >related to faulty wiring in the last five years, related to fatigue >failures of wiring and crimp lugs, including a fire in the overhead >panel ( a very small one but...) so it can happen but it may take 20 >years and 4500 hrs of operation to show up. I don't think anyone would argue that these things NEVER happen and in particular on factory built airplanes . . . people that assemble those machines have no personal interest in what happens with the airplane after it's out of warranty. Considering ALL the possiblities is what failure mode effects analysis is all about . . . Then, because you DO have a personal interest in future performance of the machine and its systems, you take the time to exercise reasonable craftsmanship to insure that "stupid" things don't happen. It's a whole lot easier to built it right than to try and figure out all the ways to back up every contingency both known and unknown. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)netins.net>
Subject: RV-list: Gyros more editorial...
Date: Dec 19, 1997
charset="us-ascii" I have read this thread with interest because after scud running from Iowa to Florida and back I have decided to add some gyros to the pink panther. I have personally pondered the pros and cons of both systems. I wish that I could simply buy the electric stuff and be done with it. I am not going to. I have been in the soup in the deep dark night when the lights went out and it is a lonely feeling. (see the story, not one of my better ones, but true @ www.petroblend.com/dougr/litesout I screwed up, pilots do that you know...) I too have experienced a vacuum failure IMC, a much less exciting operation because I simply pulled the power back 2" and pulled the standby knob out. I have experienced several gyro failures, some in twins with more stuff on the right side and some not. The gyro failures were barely memorable. The most electric airplane that I have flown is the Jet Commander. It has a electrical system that would rival a small town. Two generators, two alternators, a battery, transformer rectifiers to make DC out of AC and inverters to make AC out of DC. This airplane has more different busses than I can remember, reverse current relays, automatic buss ties and load shedding. It all worked great and was very well isolated in the event of a failure. I could not imagine a single event that could take the system. Having said that, I am certain that it has happened. I have heard stories of a 757 being flown on the peanut gyro (called that because it is about as big as peanut) while the crew isolated faults and woke the systems up again. As hard as we might try, I doubt we can anticipate all the failures that we might find. (Who would believe that a piece of duct tape could bring down a 757) The vacuum system is simple, and separate. While it lacks the reliability that we might like, it is easily backed up with a manifold pressure standby system which in an RV works really well because you can climb or cruise at nearly any altitude at 2 to 3 in below wide open throttle. The gyro's too leave something to be desired in the area of dependability but so do the electric ones. And when all else fails you still have the trusty Turn and Bank. If a gyro fails it should be just one (D.G. or Horizon), if the pump fails, use the standby vac. The net result is, it would require a multiple failure to get to needle ball and airspeed. You can accomplish the same thing in the electric system by tying the standby system to the main buss, but now that you have tied them together the "possibility" exist for one event to take them both. What? If I knew that I would work in Wichita like Bob. I appreciate Electric Bob's pursuit of new paradigms and agree that it is prudent to ask "why? To his credit he can answer all the questions that I or others could pose. It is the ones that we have not thought about that will get you. In this case, as I analyze it, from the perspective of IFR at night in a twin beech with no electrons, I keep coming back to "Why not install the Vacuum system?" Without a manifold pressure standby vacuum system the electric system probably has an edge. Tailwinds, accumulating a vacuum system. Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com http://www.petroblend.com/dougr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6ToBuild <RV6ToBuild(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
Very good input, I have looked this up the MC33030. It would appear that this chip was made for this application. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Unusual attitudes / IFR Flight
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
writes: >>The thought of taking up panel space in a beautiful RV with an ADF is, well, >>painful!! Hopefully we will see that requirement fade away in the next few >>years as GPS with all its enhancements takes over. >I thought the checkride requirement was simply that you demonstrate three >different types of approaches? If so, a published GPS should be an >acceptable substitute for the NDB approach. Once you've got your ticket, I >think the FAR's say only that your radios be "appropriate to the facilities >being used", or some such language. I think the ADF is required only if >you want to fly NDB approaches. >Alan Carroll >RV-8 #80177 (Wings) Alan, That's true now, but not when I got my ticket. had to demonstrate NDB approaches then, so now I have one in the panel. Still use it for NDB approaches (into Chatham Ma) but you KNOW that I have the non- approach certified GPS there backing it up...... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Battery discussion
>I agree with your statement about not using a connector. The reasons for the >connector are as follows: > >One pc wire scenario: Lets say that the a/c vibrates a bit. How long do you >suppose the rubber grommet will last holding this pc of wire away from the >sharp edge of the firewall? Do you want to be in the pilots seat when it >chafes thru and contacts the stainless steel? I don't. I haven't seen a >suitable insulator for this area that is also fireproof and inexpensive. There are tens of thousands of airplanes that use the grommet and grommet shield technique for penetration of firewalls on battery/ starter wires (BIG guys). The REASON for grommets is to take a wire through a metalic barrier and prevent vibration from working the barrier against the wire's primary insulation. The grommet then gets shielded to preserve the firewall's integrity as a FIREwall. snip When an edge of sheet metal cuts through a battery cable, the momentary fault currents are high . . . hundreds of amps and the faults clear by burning away the edge of the metal. Well, this sounds like a "bad thing". This scenario is what I'm trying to avoid. The combination of these features is why a bizzilion certified ships have no battery cable fuses and they use grommets. As you say time after time, just because the certified ships are done this way, don't make it right. snip One just never hears of a properly installed cable being a problem. That would be the focus of this thread. >Second scenario: How long should the cable extand past the firewall? A >bulkhead connector will allow you to make the starter cable the exact length >it needs to be. Make it a foot too long and trim on final termination. . . . Agreed. >The part I use is from Summit Racing (800-230-3939) and it is p/n SUM-G1431, >costing $9.39. It has a machined brass post, and it comes with 5/16" brass >nuts for each side. . . . . . . and adds more milliohms of drop in the cranking path along with more parts count. Milliohms? What effect would this have in service? If you do use this device, find some brass lock nuts or use thread locker during final installation. I don't think the local Ace hardware has these nuts. Threadlocker at final assy is probably the way to go for most of us. Torqe to specs for material and thread pitch. Add the rubber booties over each end of the post which are new, exposed, always-hot conductors. This would be hot only when the starter solenoid is energized, assuming the soleniod is mounted inside. Seems I've seen it mounted above the battery on most installations. By all means, use the booties! Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> The whole point of this thread is to get the starter cables in safely, and also the installation would allow for actually starting the engine. Perfection is a fine goal, but the thing being discussed must also be practical (installable & serviceable in the field), like the 350 MPH homebuilt that uses 5 GPH and lands in 500'. Looks like we're going to have to compromise here. What is the system that will give the best service, with no (in this case) maintainence? Heat is something we will have to contend with. Oil is usually sprayed around this area also.Let's add some 5606 fluid. How about 100LL? Put these four onto that lil' rubber grommet, and it's mush. A dead short will soon follow. I've replaced too many of these grommets to believe someone saying the opposite. I'll put up with a few milliohms of resistance for the peace of mind. Give me a supplier and a p/n for a better type fireproof grommet, and I'll use it. Your turn. Check six! Mark Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4Brown <RV4Brown(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
While it might seem wasteful, I just throw the dull bits away. The good news is that I have only discarded two or three! I managed to break a couple of others. (dropped the drill - ah shuks) In my experience, It is a challenge to re-sharpen small drill bits by hand and maintain an accurate drill centerline. Usually the drill cuts more from one side than the other and with the centerline being off, drills an oversize hole. I don't think the cost of a good drill sharpening machine can be justified for just a couple of bits. Perhaps someone on the list may have already purchased a "GOOD" drill sharpening machine and would be willing to offer a sharpening service. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Boog829 <Boog829(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: I've Got the Primer!
I called the Sherwin Williams Co. Automotive Branch in Addison Il. at 630-628-6900 and received the names of two suppliers in my area (Chicago). One had the GP988 on the shelf @ 4.78 per can. The supplier is: Metro Paint Supplies, 1050 Bluff City Blvd., Elgin, IL, 60120 (847) 695-3600. They recommed using a prepsol cleaner before using the primer, it contains Petroleum Naptha & Toluene. Their private label is Pre Kleen It @ $11.50 per gallon. The sales person stated that their automotive body shop customers use this Precleaner to give better adhesion. Lacquer thinner leaves an oily residue which reduces the effectiveness of the primer and can cause peeling and flaking in the future. Jerry B. Boog829(at)aol.com working on the tail ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb <Kerrjb(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
I'm not sure there is a viable way to sharpen #40's . A neighbor, Tom Hahn ( S-51 driver and builder) has a Drill Doctor and my partner, Rob Rimbold who likes a mechanical challenge,spent several hours with it and never seemed to produce a totally true bit. Maybe the best thing especially for short bits is just to find a good supplier of quality jobber bits and buy them by the pack. Has anyone else figured it out. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sport AV8R <SportAV8R(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Alternator Options
> since all > I fly is rentals, I don't EXPECT any of those batteries > to really be there all the time either. C'mon, Bob! Get to it. We'll talk you through your RV project, won't we, fellas? Order the empennage kit, clean off the workbench, and begin your vigil for the UPS man! You could even put an electric system in it if you wanted to ;-] Start building today; quit renting by the new millenium! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
Does Drill Dr work well on large bits? I have several sets that go up to 1/2 inch and most are dull so it would pay off. Is it hard to use? Could one chuck up in teh drill press a 1/4 inch by 4 inch chunk of round bar stock, run it down on a #40 bit so as to form a holder for the little ones? There are machines to do this - in fact there are even machines that make drill bits! :-) hal > I'm not sure there is a viable way to sharpen #40's . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6 <RICKRV6(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
Bob, I know of one veteran RV builder in the CHI area who have uses allen head screws on the fuel tank access plate with good results. He also likes to fully seal the plate with proseal and the allen head screws make removal (if and when necessary) much easier. Rick McBride ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6 <RICKRV6(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Heater in 6A
<< RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing Would you all not reccomend the Van's heater kit? >> Paul, Since no one else has chimed in I'll tell you my experience. I originally had Alan Tolles crossover (or more accurate "fallover") exhaust system. I used Van's heat muff which fit fine. When I switched to Larry Vetterman's crossover (out of necessity) the length of straight running pipe wouldn't allow the use of the Van's muff. I switched to Rick Robbin's muffs and they worked great. I had about 250 hours on Van's muff when I tossed it away and it had developed cracks at the mounting flanges but otherwise was in good shape. I had another 250 hours on Robbin's muffs when I sold my plane in which there had been no problems whatsoever. I would recommed Robbin's muffs without hesitation you may find the're the only ones that fit. Rick McBride RV-6 N523JC gone RV-8 80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: jim jewell <jjewell(at)okanagan.net>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
> >who why ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lousmith <Lousmith(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: Pre Positioning Flaps
> > Somebody else replied "Why not use an MC33030?" I looked up this part > and it would work very nicely as an analog flap controller with the > addition of an anolog meter (like the one MAC has) for the flap position. > It's a DC Servo motor Controller/Driver IC. > > > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV > (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) > wstucklen1(at)juno.com > Fred, I have one of the MAC analog meters that is new and unused. These sell for 49.95 new. If someone is interseted, make me and offer and I will pay shipping. Regards, Louis Smith lousmith(at)aol.com RV-8 N801RV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
Date: Dec 19, 1997
---------- > >While installing spar platenuts, I apparently cross threaded one because > of >a mis-alignment of the platenut to the hole. > > Brian, > ... I bet you weren't using a plate nut jig to drill those holes > ...:^) Correct If you are using the "use a 1/8 cleco, it sort of fits" technique, the odds are that a measurable fraction > of your nutplates will suffer the mis-alignment you mention due to a build > up of tolerance errors. > Yes, that's how I've been installing them > Using the correct tool gets around this problem (surprise ...:^), > so go out and buy a #8 nutplate jig. This jig can be a real time saver when you start working on the fuselage with it's many #8 nutplates. Thanks, I was thinking that the tank platenuts were the majority on the plane, but it sounds like there's lots yet to come. > > ... Gil (use the right tool) Alexander ... > > > > > >I was very surprised at how easily it stripped out. It may be a good idea > >to drill out the hole a bit larger than the plans call for. You'll end up > >with a lighter plane too. > > > >Brian Eckstein > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: tank sealing process
Date: Dec 19, 1997
I'll be sealing up the tanks over the holidays. Before I begin, I'd like to see if anyone has any comments on the process. I intend to scuff everything until scratches are gone, alumiprep, alodyne, then clean with MEK just prior to prosealing. Specifically, I'm wondering if alodyning will result in a corrosion film that will not adhere to proseal. Comments? Thanks Brian Eckstein ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Warren Bishop <wemkbish(at)nponline.net>
Subject: Re: LEDs as indicators
Allied Elctronics has LED's that are 12v in 3 colors: red, green, amber. They are available with 6" leads or with tabs for slip on terminals. Warren Bishop Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >In order to use an LED for a warning light are there any additional > >components necessary such as a resistor or DC to DC voltage convertor? > > > >I'm thinking I might use some LEDs for low fuel and low vacuum warning > >lights. > > > >In addition I might susbstitute an LED for the incandescant bulb that comes > >with the LR-3 regulator. > > LED's can be used to replace light bulbs by simply putting > a resistor in series with the device to set the current > through it. Most small LED's are rated at 20 milliamperes > and they'll light up with about 1.8 volts across them. > 13.8 - 1.8 means you need to drop 12 volts at 20 milliamps > in a series resistor. 12/.02 = 600 ohms. You'll find that > 560 ohms is a standard value (you need a 1/2 watt resistor) > and will work for the majority of your needs. Some super > bright LED's need 60 ma so the resistor drops to 200 ohms . . . > but these are way too bright to be practical indicators. > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > > < Show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
From: m.talley(at)juno.com (Michael L Talley)
I talked to the rep from Courtlands the company that makes Pro Seal. Seems their sealnt sticks better to alodined aluminum than bare, primed etc. I plan to alodine everything inside the tank. Another part of the discussion was a suggestion to do what the big airplanes do for sealing: use C20 ProSeal - a little thinner brushable sealant that cures in 20 hours - as a faying surface seal (between the part) and after that has cured use the B4 as a fillet seal around all the joints and rivets. The rep sent quite a bit of data on their products. Their sealant is available in pre measured mixing/dispensing tubes. The local FBO says that is the way to go. Mike Talley RV-6 drilling the second tank skin and gonna seal both tanks in the near future ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Battery
The use of a connector in the firewall for the "negative" cable is detailed somewhere in Van's literature. I believe the idea is to achieve a good airframe ground and then a cable run from there to the engine case to ensure a good ground for the starter. No danger from the exposed connector but a possible spot for loose connections to develop, if not properly installed. I opted for a direct connection to the engine case for a starter gound, and then another wire from there to the motor mount to firewall bolt, for the airframe ground. I have to agree with Bob regarding the use of rubber grommets through the firewall for both cables. The positive connection from the battery, through two at the master relay, two at the starter relay, and now one at the solenoid (if you're using a lightweight starter), then to the starter itself, already leaves plenty of opportunity for poor connections to develop without adding two more. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA >I agree with your statement about not using a connector. The reasons for the >connector are as follows: > >One pc wire scenario: Lets say that the a/c vibrates a bit. How long do you >suppose the rubber grommet will last holding this pc of wire away from the >sharp edge of the firewall? Do you want to be in the pilots seat when it >chafes thru and contacts the stainless steel? I don't. I haven't seen a >suitable insulator for this area that is also fireproof and inexpensive. There are tens of thousands of airplanes that use the grommet and grommet shield technique for penetration of firewalls on battery/ starter wires (BIG guys). Add the rubber booties over each end of the post which are new, exposed, always-hot conductors. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountian Instruments
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 19, 1997
>>I just finished installing the RMI engine montior, everthing seems to >>be working just fine. I heard that they were working on a display that would allow the depiction of temp. data in deg. F. Does anyone know if they have made that model available? Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Thomas Velvick <rver(at)caljet.com>
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
> >I talked to the rep from Courtlands the company that makes Pro Seal. What is the phone number for Courtlands where you can get the premeasured C-20? I looked in the Yeller Pages and could only find---COURTAULD'S AEROSPACE 800-332-7686 PRIMERS, COATINGS, SEALANTS Is this the same company or is there a different one? Tom Velvick rver(at)caljet.com Peoria, AZ USA rv-6a getting ready to pro-seal wing tanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: gyros
W B Ward wrote: > > > << RAT or (Ram Air Turbine) >> > > On the 757, or 767, which are relatively "new" Boeing airplanes, the RAT may > well produce hydraulic pressure. However, on some of the older Boeing and > Douglas airplanes, hydraulic pumps that can operate flight controls and other > hydraulic equipment are, and can be operated by electrical power, which is > what the RAT provides on those particular types. > > Different airplanes--different procedures and different functions. Hmmm. Go > figure. > Wrong again Buzzard Breath! DC-9's (old types as you so refer to) do have electric hydraulic pumps but they are powered by the two engine generators or the APU generator. There is no RAT on the Douglas. This is a Boeing concept. Regards. and go figure. Don Champagne Retired DC-6,9/ B-727,757,767 Captain,CFII,ATP RV-6QB ETC. ETC. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 1997
From: spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: No primer required
Guys, On the 'oh pleeeeze, no!' eternal, perpetual, never-ending, immortal primer thread... I think you worry about primer waaaay too much! My 50 year old Cessna 140 has no primer whatsoever inside. NONE. Just alclad and bare 2024 everywhere. It's beautiful, bright and shiny inside. No white stuff. No pitting. Looks like it just came out of the factory yesterday. This plane HAS been hangared mostly, but the majority of it's life has been spent in the sweaty, steamy, humid midwest. My next RV will not be primed except for possibly the non-clad parts (bulkheads, ribs, etc.) or where aluminum parts are in close proximity to steel. The only reason my current RV-4 is primed inside is that the previous builder started it, so I finished it that way. Now it think much of it was needless expense -in terms of money, time, and weight. I'm a believer in ACF-50 and Boshield T-9 (corrosion preventative sprays), by the way . Great stuff. The prime under the finish paint OUTSIDE the airframe is a different matter... Etch, Alodine and epoxy of some flavor is the only way to go. My humble opinion. Scott (a practicing A&P) N4ZW & NC76740 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)juno.com
Subject: tank sealing process
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Bryan: I just roughed up with a hard scotch-Brite wheel & cleaned w/ LT on my RH. I got to do the LH tank next. I thought I was the only one out there that was still Pro sealing. No one likes talking about it. I think it brings up bad memories. I closed the RH with the large holes in the corner of the outside ribs & the baffle. I am going to build little corner pieces with one rivet in each corner for the LH.. Take your time, Get help from 2nd body. Take time to keep tools clean. Keep that gun normal to the rivets on the nose curves. Merry Christmas to all. Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
>I'm not sure there is a viable way to sharpen #40's . It probably can be done, but I'm sure most builders are using the split point style bits which don't sharpen very well; by hand or in a sharpener. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. se opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<< Before I begin, I'd like to see if anyone has any comments on the process. I intend to scuff everything until scratches are gone, alumiprep, alodyne, then clean with MEK just prior to prosealing >> I agreed right up until the MEK. Try wiping a clean mirror with MEK on a clean paper towel, then try the same thing with Naphtha (Coleman Lantern Fluid). The MEK will leave a film, but the Naphtha won't. Also, make sure you use fresh Alodine, don't leave them in too long (a light golden color is all you want) and rinse well in hot water or you can get a sloughing film that will interfere with adhesion, not promote it. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<< I talked to the rep from Courtlands the company that makes Pro Seal. >> Would you believe Courtauld's? -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Jorgensen" <rpjorgen(at)dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Very good comment. People who have theabilltry to build an airplane should have no problem sharpening a #40 drill freehand after a little practice. ---------- > > With practice and a light touch you can do it freehand. > > hal > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
Dear Jim I thought it was just me with the drill bit thing - in the scope of all the expenses building a plane, if one can not follow your directions on what to do with a dull drill bit, they should re-think the building process. I have been an electrical contractor for over 20 years, I have never sharpened a drill bit, and at what electricians get paid in NY if I saw one of my guys trying to re-use a bit, well you get the picture. Buy by the dozen - I love it Thanks Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zeidman, Richard B" <Richard.Zeidman(at)PHL.Boeing.com>
Subject: tank sealing
Date: Dec 20, 1997
> For anyone interested, I found out that Courtalds Proseal 890 T1 b-2 > is used by Boeing under their ID of BMS 5-44 T1 B2. Same stuff they > use on their aircraft. This would only be of help if you work there, > since they don't sell it. Rich Zeidman RV6A S/N 25224 empinage complete- waiting for wing kit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Tom Brandon <majortom(at)mursuky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Paint Schemes
Does anyone have a collection of pictures of RV- paint schemes? Tom Brandon Murray, Ky. RV-8 next year just dreaming this year ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<< Also, make sure you use fresh Alodine, don't leave them in too long (a light golden color is all you want) and rinse well in hot water or you can get a sloughing film that will interfere with adhesion, not promote it. >> GV, and others: I've been told about a brush-on adhesion promoter for tank sealant. If anyone wants, I can get the p/n for this material. I'd guess that none of us are using this step, so it could be icing on the (pro-seal) cake. Ryan Bendure: what were you taught about using this sealant stuff? Enlighten us, O Wise One! ;-) And I STILL owe you a ride. What do you fellow listers think about this (KISS) process: Drill up the tank scuff sealant contact areas with a brown rolock disc on a die grinder dimple seal rivet I should add: don't let a freshly scuffed pc set around the shop for long- seal immediately. We use George Orndorff's method of assy- some steps today, more tomorrow, and finish the next day. You get to ruin more clothes that way. I seem to recall that alodine is bad for you (also mek, etc) so I'm sort of staying away from it. Also: if alodine (or am I thinking of the acid etch?) is rinsed off with tap water, you can introduce solids and salts into the surface- you should use D.I. water for the rinse. Where the heck can we get that stuff? Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Drill Bit Sharpening
Hal, I have had success with my Drill Doctor (DD) with my whole set of shop bits. I have sharpened from 1/2" down to 1/16" and converted these all to split points with the DD. It takes a fine touch to do the smaller buts but I have had good results. I know Cleveland had trouble with the alignment on some of the DD's but I guess I just got a good one. There is one other option for one to get. Sears has a drill sharpener that bolts to the bench next to your 6" or larger (Maybe smaller too) bench grinder. You sharpen the bit on the side of the grinding wheel using this method. I have a special white "cool" running grinding wheel made for this pupose, but it's not a necessity. It's harder to set up this system but it only costs about $20 and it too does a very good job. Any drill sharpening equipment requires a fine touch and development of a "technique". Al Never knock on Death's door, ring the doorbell and run, he hates that! > >Does Drill Dr work well on large bits? I have several sets that go up to 1/2 inch and most are dull so it would pay off. Is it hard to use? No. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JimNolan(at)mail.kconline.com
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Alternator Options
Let me get this straight, one man doesn't own an aircraft. This must mean the man doesn't own an aircraft battery. One man has trouble with a car battery, so all batteries are the same as his MG battery. Get a tune-up. Ain't America great, thanks for sharing your most qualified insights on the expected life of an aircraft battery. As for me, I have positively NO idea what the expected life of an aircraft battery is. I'll be glad to let you know when mine quits. HUMOR GUYS, ONLY HUMOR Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cafgef <Cafgef(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: RV6 Electric Flap Control
<< The flap pos ind could be anything from a analog meter to lamps to an LCD or could even talk to you in your headset "FLAPS TEN" "FLAPS TWENTY". >> Do you want your flaps talking to you just when you are trying to get instructions from the tower and trying to listen to the other traffic flying around you? Gene Francis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using Reiff Winter
Heaters I installed the Reiff cylinder and oil pan heaters that plug into 120v AC for my RV6A. However, to keep that heat in the engine, I need to make a blanket to go over the cowling for insulation. Obviously this blanket is going to have to be waterproof. The only thing I can thing of is to take a wool blanket and attach waterproof tarp on both sides of the blanket. This seems kind of funky. Does anybody have any ideas ? Gettting ready for the very cold Chicago winter .... Scott Johnson rvgasj(at)mcs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)a.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountian Instruments
>I heard that they [ Rocky Mountain Instruments ] were working on a >display that would allow the >depiction of temp. data in deg. F. Does anyone know if they have made >that model available? > Not that I'm aware of. I have both the uMonitor and uEncoder installed. The uEncoder' temperature display is selectable between F and C. The uMonitor's display, however is C only. SO: I have the uEncoder set to F. That way I have one unit ginving me temps in C and the other in F. No more doing conversions on the ol' E6B! Best Regards, Dave Barnhart ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: "VanArtsdalen, Scott" <scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com>
Subject: Timed tanks
<< It takes a safe pilot to have safety in an airplane regardless of how much fuel is available! >> I don't think I could have said that better, myself. If we don't have enough common sense to monitor our gauges, do we have the common sense to be flying? And remember that the gauges (most anyway) are just a good indicator of how much fuel is in the tanks. Unless you can physically see the fuel level (cork and wire, clear tubes) you really don't know how much is there. I was taught to scan the engine instruments and fuel gauges, every 15 to 30 seconds, and that was only for a ground run up. How often should we scan them when we are flying? How often do you check your oil pressure? How about CHT, EGT? Then what about MAP, RPM, and all of that? Should we not check our fuel gauges just as often? I'd think it would all be a part of the "panel scan." Someone said; "Flying is supposed to be fun!" But at the expense of what? Safety? Flying should be fun. I would quit flying if I got too paranoid about what "might" happen. I just scan the panel every couple of minutes or so and mostly just enjoy the flight. Every time you look at your oil pressure, look at your fuel quantity too. Make sure you got what you need. Build safe, and fly safe. Build safe, fly safe, but don't ever lose the joy in flying. I see these threads time and time again on different aviation-realted mailing lists and newsgroups. Aviators are always tying to impress and "one up" eachother. I know I do it. This thread is just another way to do that. Each tries to impress the other with how safe he or she is. Good. Glad to hear you're a safe pilot. But please try not to get all hung up on trying to be the safest aviator in the sky. Try to remember the reason you started flying in the first place. Sorry, I guess I should say that this is NOT directed at Wendell. Just pilots in general. Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM Slave to the "Junkyard Dog" RV-4, S/No 4239 I've almost got enough saved up to buy my RV-4 empanage kit. You are a lucky dog! -- Scott VanArtsdalen Systems and Network Administrator Lockheed Martin Enterprise Information Systems 408-743-2224 Pager: 1-800-225-0256 Pin 635776 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Todd <tmrv6(at)pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Tank nut plate problem
Try this method: Drill a #30 hole, cleco nutplate in place with 1/8" cleco(cleco body on the opposite side of platenut), drill #40 hole in one side and stick a rivet in that hole, then drill the other #40 hole. You'd be amazed at how fast you can do a row of platenuts this way. Oh and then drill out your #30 hole to #17 or #18. Hope this helps. Todd tmrv6(at)erols.com RV-6 N92TM Flying Brian Huffaker wrote: > > > On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Gil Alexander wrote: > > > > > [snip discussion of misaligned nutplates] > > Using the correct tool gets around this problem > (surprise ...:^), > > so go out and buy a #8 nutplate jig. This jig can also > be used for the few > > #10 nutplates if you start out with a #19 hole, drill > the two #40 rivet > > holes, and then enlarge the center hole to #12. This > jig can be a real > > time saver when you start working on the fuselage with > it's many #8 nutplates. > > > I always just drill the center hole the final size, > then put the > nutplate on, holding it with a screw, and drill the #40 > thru the nutplate. > Seems to work for me, don't have to go find a jig. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zeidman, Richard B" <Richard.Zeidman(at)PHL.Boeing.com>
Subject: No primer required
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Last year I finished reskinning the wings and stab of a 1956 172 that "hadn't been primed by the factory". The corrosion was extensive throughout. The plane had been out of service since 1980. My 6a will be well primed. Rich Zeidman > ---------- > 'Michael Angiulo wrote: > > > > I've already had to clean corrosion off the alclad parts in my rv > KIT. Give > > me a break. > > Ok, so mabye I got a little extreme there. But I was really shaking my > head when I heard guys on the list wondering if Van's primer was 'good > enough and talking about spraying more over primer that. But the > Cessna > story is true. As as matter of fact Cessna has primed almost none of > their airplanes inside for most of the time they've done business. > Some > of them like the 140's, 170's, 180's and the like left the factory > with > NO PAINT AT ALL ANYWHERE except for some pretty stripes on the side of > the otherwise bare fuselage. I see a lot of these in my work, and the > vast majority of them, especially the ones well cared for, have no > corrosion problems. This in spite of being, in some cases, more than > 50 > years old. Keep in mind I don't live on the Florida coast. > > P.S. -watch out for human sweat -a major corrosive. > Scott > N4ZW > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash)
Subject: Re: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using Reiff Winter
Heaters
Date: Dec 20, 1997
>> >>I installed the Reiff cylinder and oil pan heaters that plug into 120v AC >>for my RV6A. >> >>However, to keep that heat in the engine, I need to make a blanket to go >>over the cowling for insulation. >> >>Obviously this blanket is going to have to be waterproof. >> >>The only thing I can thing of is to take a wool blanket and attach >>waterproof tarp on both sides of the blanket. This seems kind of funky. >> >>Does anybody have any ideas ? >> >>Gettting ready for the very cold Chicago winter .... >> A simple solution: just buy some "Super Soundproofing Mat" from Aircraft Spruce or Wag-Aero. It is a wonderful insulator as well as doing a superb job as a soundproofing material. It comes in 48" widths and any thickness you need. Because it is a closed cell material, it is impervious to moisture. More info at the web page http://www.freeyellow.com/members/aircraft-reman/page4.html Hope this helps! Send email to infobot(at)pdsig.n2.net for a directory of interesting stuff! ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Bill Nash `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) Aircraft Remanufacturing Corp (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `.``-..-' 1531 Avohill Dr _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' Vista, Ca 92084 (760) 749 0239 (((),-'' (((),' (((.-' Email: bjnash(at)pdsig.n2.net Web Site: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/aircraft-reman/index.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JAF522 <JAF522(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Unsubscribe
boundary="part0_882636500_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_882636500_boundary we no longer want to receive Rv info at this time how do we unsubscribe we had requested earlier but we still keep getting mail thank you --part0_882636500_boundary From: JAF522 <JAF522(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Unsuscribe Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:14:52 EST Unsuscribe --part0_882636500_boundary-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533 <MAlexan533(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: No primer required
My RV-4 has been flying since 1985 and has no primer inside, and has over 1,000 hours. Still just as shiny as the day it was built (inside the airframe). I think what we need to realize is that the RV's are basically sport airplanes and are worth a lot of money when done, so nearly all are hangared, and pampered, and for the most part, not flown in alot of weather. Consider where you are. If on the coast, or in a humid area, I would consider a light prime inside. Otherwise, my choice is just to prime where surfaces contact and all non-alclad parts. This seems to be a good compromise. I tend to agree with the one lister who says that priming tends to be overdone. My opinion. Von Alexander N107RV -8 #544 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Electric Elevator Trim
Vanremog wrote: IMO you are as likely to break a > cable as you are to experience something wrong with the servo system. The > range should be the same in either system and it needs to be limited by design > to only the authority required. This is done by controlling the length of the > pivot arm. If this is done properly, the force required to overcome it in any > situation is very slight. > > The following scenario scares me more: If a cable on the manual system breaks > you are quite possibly looking at a fluttering trim tab. This would happen to > the electric system only if the much more robust 10-32 stainless steel > actuating rod broke. I have both the manual and electric trim sitting in my garage; I am leaning toward the manual system at the moment. I have disassembled both the electric trim servo and the manual cable mechanism, and IMHO, the manual system looks to be about 10 times stronger than the electric servo. In the manual system, the weakest link is the 1/8 steel cable which is unlikely to break. The above mentioned 10-32 stainless rod in the electric servo is the STRONGEST link in the system. The rest of the load bearing parts are plastic, albeit very strong reinfored plastic. Still, I'd wager that in an all out tug-of-war, the manual cable would easily outlast the servo. I know, let's bolt a manual cable to a servo and try to pull them apart with a couple of 4x4 trucks! One point that seems to have been overlooked in this debate is the redundant elevator control possible with the trim mechanism. In the event of a failure of the elevator control linkage (rare but not unheard of), the manual trim is designed to be used as an emergency means of elevator control. By pushing in the button, the trim knob can be moved back and forth as fast as is necessary to provide some degree of control. I read that Van had tested this, and pronounced the test landings "survivable". I also recall having to learn the procedure for trim-landing a Cessna during my PPL training, although we never tried this. Would such a landing be possible with an electric system, particularly if a Govenor is used to slow down the trim response? Curt RV-6 a'buildin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
>What are the rest of you using to sharpen drill bits? Especially the >smaller sizes (#40). I spoke with Cleaveland's, and they no longer Years ago in a sheetmetal forum at Oshkosh, Chris Heinz, the *other* somewhat frugal designer and builder of light all-aluminum airplanes described the technique in detail. It involved a right-handed underhand loft of the dull bit, the graceful arc of the bit making its way to the nearest trash can, and a left-handed grope in the tool pouch for the new replacement. His summary in plain form was that the best way to sharpen a dull bit was to replace it with a new one. And that's from an engineer who almost makes Van look extravagant. - Mike hartmann(at)sound.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Hi to all, Just have to jump in here with my 2 cents worth on tank sealing. Acid etching and alodining are not necessary. Just lightly scuff with Scotchbrite all the faying surfaces, clean well with only naptha ( Coleman fuel ), keep fingerprints off. Do a really good workman like job of applying the proseal so there are no voids. Clean all the rivits with naptha also ( dunk 'em in a jar, then dry on a paper towell ). Use a dab of proseal under each rivit head before driving. On the root rib access plate, use Fuel Lube on both sides of the gasket and under the screw heads. Dont use the screws that Van supplies, the under sides of the heads are not flat. I like the Idea that someone posted about using allen head screws here. Don't use slosh unless it becoms necessary at a later date. 3 RV's, 900+ hrs. , no leaks. Merry Christmas to all, Bill Davis, N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Battery
>The use of a connector in the firewall for the "negative" cable is detailed >somewhere in Van's literature. I believe the idea is to achieve a good >airframe ground and then a cable run from there to the engine case to ensure a >good ground for the starter. No danger from the exposed connector but a >possible spot for loose connections to develop, if not properly installed. I >opted for a direct connection to the engine case for a starter gound, and then >another wire from there to the motor mount to firewall bolt, for the airframe >ground. The single point ground bus kit offered by B&C (and soon on our website) does feature a forest of ground tabs on each side of the firewall and a brass interconnection bolt. Battery minus attaches to cockpit side, firewall-to-crankcase braid to other side. . . .ground system is finished. >I have to agree with Bob regarding the use of rubber grommets through the >firewall for both cables. The positive connection from the battery, through >two at the master relay, two at the starter relay, and now one at the solenoid >(if you're using a lightweight starter), then to the starter itself, already >leaves plenty of opportunity for poor connections to develop without adding >two more. I gathered from another reply that both starter and battery contactors are being mounted together . . . only the starter feed goes through the firewall. This is certainly a less stressful issue with respect to reliability since a firewall "connector" only affects starting path. I prefer to have the starter contactor on the firewall so that the alternator b-lead can drive the system at the starter contactor. Number of FAT wire penetrations is cut in half. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Tom Redfield <tomredfield(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Justice - Fuselage Instructions
Did Frank Justice create Fuselage instructions. The wing instructions were great. George and Becky's videos are great too, but many things appear magically "done according to the plans." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Bob Haan <bobh(at)cdac.com>
Subject: Re: Justice - Fuselage Instructions
> >Did Frank Justice create Fuselage instructions. The wing instructions were >great. George and Becky's videos are great too, but many things appear >magically "done according to the plans." > The Frank Justice instructions were a valuable resource and Randall Henderson suggested to Frank that he put them on the Home Wing Home Page (this only makes sense, since Frank is a member of this builder's group). He agreed and has started sending Randall the latest and greatest .doc files and Randall has been converting them as he gets them and putting them on the page, at http://www.edt.com/homewing/ The Fuselage instructions are there. Bob Haan bobh(at)cdac.com Portland, OR 503-579-2729 RV6A 24461 Fuse out of jig, working on mounting tail ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Dropped from list?? [Everyone should read this!]
>-------------- >Can you tell me why I was dropped from the rv-list? I had been on it >for some time then it just stopped.... > > > >JR >-------------- JR & Listers et al, Sorry about that, JR. With the over 1000 builders on the Lists and the quick posting turn around afforded by the new Internet connection, the volume of email on the List has increased quite a bit. This has in turn caused an increased problem with subscribers from ISPs such as AOL and Juno that have mail message quotas. These systems have the habit of sending a message back to the sender warning that the target mbox is full and not accepting additional messages. On a good day I have anywhere from 10 to 20 email addresses that are bouncing email for one reason or another. Multiply that by the number of messages posted each day to the RV and Zenith Lists each day and this amounts to sometimes as much as 10Mb of returned or bogus email! My only defense is to removed the accounts that are causing problems with the idea that the person will login in at somepoint and clean up their email box and resubscribe to the List when they realize that they have been dropped. Hope this helps explain the process a little better... Matt Dralle RV-List and Zenith-List Admin. Matronics -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 510-606-1001 Voice | 510-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
> What do you fellow listers think about this (KISS) process: > Drill up the tank > scuff sealant contact areas with a brown rolock disc on a die grinder > dimple > seal > rivet Mark, I agree with you. I would add also: > build the tanks in a jig >use 36 slotted blocks per tank to hold when closing >squeeze all you can >put on an excess amount on each part and use your finger to smooth after riviting >I skuffed with red scotch bright pads I didn't use the sloshing compound to cover the entire interior, but I did use a straw (like holding some in with your finger over the end) and put 4 or 5 drops beside each joint and tilted the tank to run it all along the joint. I used the same jigs to transport my wings to the airport. John Kitz N721JK 190 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using
Reiff Winter Heaters
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
>I installed the Reiff cylinder and oil pan heaters that plug into 120v >AC >for my RV6A. > >However, to keep that heat in the engine, I need to make a blanket to >go >over the cowling for insulation. > >Obviously this blanket is going to have to be waterproof. > >The only thing I can thing of is to take a wool blanket and attach >waterproof tarp on both sides of the blanket. This seems kind of >funky. > >Does anybody have any ideas ? Scott we have one of the oil sump heaters on the blue 6A at Van's and with just that doing the warming after being on over night the cyl fins are warm. That's not with temps at 0 Deg F. but still quite cold. Before going to a lot of trouble with a blanket and such, I suggest first you just try closing off the cowling openings with foam plugs (cooling and induction inlets, and the bottom air exit) to keep cold air from blowing through. It might have excellent results. If you have any digital CHT instruments you could check what kind of temp rise you attain (along with oil temp). Maybe someone else out there has already experimented with something similar? Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bs(at)cbtek.com (Bill Shaw)
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Date: Dec 20, 1997
You sent it to the wrong address!! Send it It gives you the directions for subscribing and unsubscribing. Bill Shaw ---------- > From: JAF522 <JAF522(at)aol.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Fwd: RV-List: Unsubscribe > Date: Saturday, December 20, 1997 11:48 > > we no longer want to receive Rv info at this time > how do we unsubscribe > we had requested earlier but we still keep getting mail > thank you > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Send an e mail to: rv-list-request(at)matronics.com and put unsubscribe in the message area. >we no longer want to receive Rv info at this time >how do we unsubscribe >we had requested earlier but we still keep getting mail >thank you ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Lauritsen" <clevtool(at)tdsi.net>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Hello, and Happy Holidays from Cleaveland Aircraft Tool, I saw the discussion about drill bit sharpening and thought I would tell you about our drill sharpener experience. We purchased an end mill sharpener from Darex several years ago and were astonished at how easy it was to set up and use. A few years later they came out with a drill bit sharpener Model SP-2500 (see web site at: http://www.darex.com/spfax1.htm) and it too was unbelievably simple to use and gave incredibly nice split point drills. Last year I heard about the Drill Doctor (see web site at: http://www.drilldr.com) and ordered one. It most certainly was not the same quality as the other model but it worked well, was simple, and was 1/25th the price. We added it to our catalog and out of the first 10 we received, 6 were returned. Darex claimed they had made new alignment jigs and solved the problem. Our ratio of rejects dropped to 1 in 6, still not the kind of image that we want to present so we dropped them from our product line. Funny thing is the ones that work really work well, and the ones that don't won't work at all. We tried testing them before they were shipped but even some of those came back, and when re-tested did not work!?! Customer feedback indicates that Darex phone support was very good, and there tech support section on their website is helpful. My suggestion would be to buy one direct if you buy one, and use it a bunch when it arrives. This way you can exchange until you get one that really works. If anyone has a Drill Doctor purchased from us that does not like it, give me a call and send it back. As mentioned above we do have a high quality drill sharpener that will sharpen accurately down to #70. It will only sharpen 135 degree split point bits. We have discussed a resharpening service previously and determined that it would be too expensive for the customer compared to new bits. Unless done in large quantities cost of shipping both directions makes it cost the same as new bits. If anyone is interested, a rough price would be half of a new jobber length bit (even for extension drills of the same size). Happy Holidays!, Mike Lauritsen Cleaveland Aircraft Tool 2225 First St. Boone, IA 50036 1-800-368-1822 orders 1-515-432-6794 questions 1-515-432-7804 FAX clevtool(at)tdsi.net http://www.cleavelandtool.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
. We have discussed a resharpening service previously and >determined >that it would be too expensive for the customer compared to new bits. Mike, How about a sharpening service for countersink and deburing cutters? Considering there higher purchase cost I would be interested. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. >Mike Lauritsen >Cleaveland Aircraft Tool >2225 First St. >Boone, IA 50036 >1-800-368-1822 orders >1-515-432-6794 questions >1-515-432-7804 FAX >clevtool(at)tdsi.net >http://www.cleavelandtool.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Moradian" <tonym(at)enviroaqua.com>
Subject: I think I screwed up!!!
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Hi all, I have set up the HS skeleton in the jig. I was trying to drill the fwd root rib to the fwd spar. I was drilling from the bottom throught the pilot hole, through the spar and the fwd root rib. The end result is a hole that looks like a figure eight. It looks like two holes drilled (#30) coenciding through one another. I measured the spanwise distance from one edge to another, and it is 3/16". If i try to drill the hole out with #12 drill bit and put a 3/16" AN rivet, i won't be nowhere near the min. 2D edge distance. I would really hate to think that i need to redo my fwd spar. Any suggestions short of rebuilding the spar would be appreciated. Tony Moradian Empenage #80398 N100TM reserved tmoradia(at)ix.netcom.com 310-550-7484 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Louis Willig <larywil(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
> >Hello, and Happy Holidays from Cleaveland Aircraft Tool, > >I saw the discussion about drill bit sharpening and thought I would tell >you about our drill sharpener experience. Mike and DJ, Thanks for the post and information. May the Holidays be sweet one's for you as well. On the subject of re-sharpening, I learned to re-sharpen drill bits by hand/eye as a teen 40 years ago. I guess I'm pretty good at it, but I would never count on the results for the small, precision holes needed for rivets. Large shops re-sharpen large, expensive bits using precision equipment. Small bits go to the scrap heap. They cost of small bits is next to nothing (when purchased in quantity) compared to the cost of labor to resharpen. Drill bits in 1955 cost almost as much as they do today, thus, making them a far cheaper tool today than in '55. Last night, after reading these many posts on drill re-sharpening, I did an experiment. I drilled several holes using a new #30 bit, then drilled several using a hand/eye re-sharpened #30 bit. I placed them under my microscope and compared them for smoothness and concentricity. There is a difference. I guess I'm not really that good after all. I would never use a re-sharpened bit for very small holes on an aircraft. I still re-sharpen bits now and then for non-precision needs and when in a jam. Lastly, never, never use a re-sharpened bit to drill out rivets. The eccentricity and roughness will enlarge the hole beyond what is acceptable. The exception to all of the above would be if you have a very good drill bit sharpener. But, alas, they don't seem to exist at prices we can afford. Louis Willig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Paint Schemes
Up to my eyeballs in 'em! Some are posted on the net. Go check out the connections section in Van's homepage to trace 'em down. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bum flyer <Bumflyer(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: I think I screwed up!!!
Surely you will get a lot of help from experts. Me -- I have just put another rivet near the bad one. One on each side if room for them. This is a good solution for ribs to spar where the spacing is not visible to critics. Cheer up ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: N number database
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Greetings all, I recall seeing a thread in here about finding N numbers in the FAA database. The following has a VERY nice search engine to find both existing and reserved N numbers. Check it out: http://www.landings.com Click on SEARCH..then choose the database of your choice. You can even find any pilot's ratings and home address. Back to the tank-to-spar nutplate installation....I'm darned near buried up to my knees in aluminum shavings! Tis the season for the shop vac... Brian Denk -8 #379 just wingin' it ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I think I screwed up!!!
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
> >Surely you will get a lot of help from experts. Me -- I have just >put >another rivet near the bad one. One on each side if room for them. Another fix would be to make a small doubler the same size as the rib flanges (a scrap piece of .032 should do) and drill proper sized and positioned holes so that you can sandwich the ribs and spar in between the doublers and rivet with slightly longer rivets. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
From: Derek Reed <dreed(at)cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
Mlfred wrote: > > > > > I've been told about a brush-on adhesion promoter for tank sealant. If > anyone > wants, I can get the p/n for this material. Yes please! Hope it will be easier to get than the infamous GBP 988. Fuel tank[1] ready to seal but every time I read the posts on this I put the tank back in the corner and find something else to do! Derek Reed, wing, less tank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<349C6D70.9D781BD0(at)cdsnet.net> 58-59,63-70
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 20, 1997
> >Mlfred wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> I've been told about a brush-on adhesion promoter for tank sealant. >If >> anyone >> wants, I can get the p/n for this material. > >Yes please! Hope it will be easier to get than the infamous GBP 988. >Fuel tank[1] ready to seal but every time I read the posts on this I >put the tank back in the corner and find something else to do! Considering the bad memories that everyone that has completed a set of tanks for an RV seems to have I thought I would add a few comments from my experiences. It is a little surprising to me that with as many hundreds of tanks for RV's that have been assembled leak free by mostly beginners in metal aircraft construction; their are still so many builders trying to make the process even more difficult and labor intensive than it already is. I have personally assembled 5 or 6 sets of tanks using very basic techniques (no secret techniques or special skills), and have not had a single leak yet. I find that the key is cleanliness and preparation. I don't believe that you need to bother with alodine, adhesion promotion chemicals, etc. I also only use only about 1/2 a can of proseal for a set of tanks. This is more than enough if you put the sealant in the proper places. The more you use, the more that squeezes out from the mating surfaces and gets all over you and everything else. Remember, once the parts are joined the sealant is only filling a space .005 of an inch or so in most places. So you don't need it 3/16 of an inch to start with. Most of the leaks I have seen are usually at the rear baffle seam. I like to put the sealant on the tank skin smearing it about 1/2 inch wide over the top of the rivet holes in the skin so that when you put the baffle in place it wipes the sealant down the skin and leaves a small bead on the inside edge of the baffle. Also make sure you put a good sized glob at each corner just before the baffle goes on. Otherwise just scotch bright scuffing all the mating surfaces and proper cleaning and handling of parts to protect against contamination from your hands is all that is necessary. Don't get me wrong; if you feel better about using all the other possible extras in putting your tanks together, go for it. But many that have gone before have proven that its not that big of a deal. Once you get used to working with the stuff its not all that messy even (I have sealed tanks working in my white RV shirts and not gotten a speck on me; but I have done 5 or so sets of tanks). My main complaint has always been the smell. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: RV6 Electric Flap Control
<< Do you want your flaps talking to you just when you are trying to get instructions from the tower and trying to listen to the other traffic flying around you? >> I only insist that my machinery obey my every input every time without question, not talk to me. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Electric Elevator Trim
<< The above mentioned 10-32 stainless rod in the electric servo is the STRONGEST link in the system. The rest of the load bearing parts are plastic, albeit very strong reinfored plastic. Still, I'd wager that in an all out tug-of- war, the manual cable would easily outlast the servo. >> Thru mechanical advantage, I would guess the MAC servo system is plenty strong to do the job. There are certainly enough of them around in virtually every homebuilt. Only time will tell which will fail first. I guess I thought that the Van's supplied cable was 0.070" dia. I didn't realize it was 1/8", because I thought that I had heard a rumor of one breaking. Can anyone confirm this? -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ShowCtrGuy <ShowCtrGuy(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using Reiff Winter
He << Scott we have one of the oil sump heaters on the blue 6A at Van's and < with just that doing the warming after being on over night the cyl fins > I hate to sound like a self proclaimed know it all or anything.. but isn't that the whole point, the fins should get warm before anything else.. because they disperse heat and all.. just kinda thought that one over, and seems to me that it should work like that... Jeremy King RV4 #3981 Carrollton GA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrownTool <BrownTool(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
<< It involved a right-handed underhand loft of the dull bit, the graceful arc of the bit making its way to the nearest trash can, and a left-handed grope in the tool pouch for the new replacement. His summary in plain form was that the best way to sharpen a dull bit was to replace it with a new one. >> ________________________________________________________________________________ duty 135 degree split point #30 or #40 drill bits are around 65 cents a piece when purchased in packs of 12, the time and effort involved in trying to re- sharpen one and hoping that you have it just right doesnt seem to make sense to me. Imagine the aggravation that one incorrectly re-sharpened drill can cause. The end does not seem to justify the means. Just thought I would throw in my two cents. On a commercial note, our new website is up and running (and yes, we have a page devoted to drill bits), the site is a complete on-line version of our regular catalog. You can shop at your leisure 24 hours a day and place your order right on line! Visit us at: http://www.browntool.com If you have not visited our NEW website, please do so and let us know what you think. We appreciate any and all comments. ________________________________________________________________________________ Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. Bethany,Oklahoma 1-800-587-3883 http://www.browntool.com browntool(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 1997
Subject: Wiring Diagrams
From: rvsixer(at)juno.com (michael d hilger)
Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's that can be printed/downloaded? I can't get Mike Talley's drawings from Hovan's web page ("page out of service" message). I've also checked the Archives. Mike Hilger RV-6 finishing kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Timed tanks
<< and get this gray haired ol' fart off the ceiling >> And I thought I was the only gray haired old fart on this list. Regards Wendell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Alternator options
<< Make that $240. >> $240.00 is peanuts. $2,400.00 might be considered serious money. Regards Wendell t for "paying attention," wouldn't we think? Guess who? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using
Reiff Winter He
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 21, 1997
> I hate to sound like a self proclaimed know it all or >anything.. but >isn't that the whole point, the fins should get warm before anything >else.. >because they disperse heat and all.. just kinda thought that one over, >and >seems to me that it should work like that... Sorry I'm not quite sure what your statement means because the post was talking about engine preheaters that you plug into 110 A.C. The original poster said that besides an oil sump heater he also installed heating elements that would heat the cylinder barrels. I was stating for information that at moderately cold temps. the cylinders even warm up using only the oil sump heater. Which is mounted on the bottom of the loil sump (a long way from the cylinders). Maybe I wasn't very clear. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
<< Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's that can be printed/downloaded? I can't get Mike Talley's drawings from Hovan's web page ("page out of service" message). I've also checked the Archives. >> Mike- I'd be happy to send you an ACAD11 file of my RV-6A wiring diagram if your ISP will allow it. It's a little less than 1 Meg in size. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: noisy rv-4
I have been using a set of pilot 8000 series headsets with the built in intercom. My -4 is so noisy inside that the intercom is almost useless and the low frequency noise feels like it is amplified inside the headphone ear cups. They work fine in other less noisy airplanes, and are very comfortable. I don't believe any other regular headsets would work any better, since the background noise is so high. Today I bought some insulation that I will install from the firewall to the front seat area of the cockpit. I will totally cover every surface. It comes in about a 2 by 4 foot sheet and costs 65 dollars per sheet. I can't remember the name of it, but, it is FAA approved, is about 1/4 inch thick, has adhesive on one side and a very heavy aluminum foil type material on the other side. I will be trying out a set of David Clark headsets with the electric noise reduction kit installed also. This is a kit you can supposedly install in any headset for about 165 dollars. I don't think even a good anr headset will do much good unless I can get the background noise down quite a bit, since the background noise it what interferes with radio comms so much. Has anyone else run into high cockpit noise problems like this with their rv? I can't believe I'm the only one. (Well, I guess I could believe it, considering some of the other things I've done!) Merry Christmas. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: golf
<< what I thought was the Grand Canyon of smileys isn't really so bad and is easily filled >> Easily filled with what? Aluminum? There isn't such a thing as a "good" smiley. Two men were walking down the street in New York, and seeking directions, they asked an old derelict--"How do we get to Carnegie Hall?" The reply was; "Practice, practice, practice.!!!" Do not start on your vertical or horizontal stabilizer first. Instead; "Practice, practice, practice.!!!" Regards Wendell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Timed tanks
<< Just suggesting that you think twice! >> Very good suggestion. Thanks Wendell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: MAC servo speed control
<< trust me. >> Where have we heard (or said) that before? Regards Wendell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: replacing those golden screws with allen head bolts
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Fellow listers, I hate to say it, but I deleted the post that had the description of the allen head screws/bolts to replace the flat head and C/S screws that Van provides with the kit. I thought it would be easy to find them in a catalog somewhere, but it wasn't. Will someone please post it again. Steve Soule -----Original Message-----... Dont use the screws that Van supplies, the under sides of the heads are not flat. ... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: IAV8RV4 <IAV8RV4(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
Micheal, I have not had these problems with my -4 , infact most people that have ridden in mine comment that it is quieter than they expected. I have a Gulf Coast int., I think its the same as PS Engineering, with David Clark headsets. One is electronic noise cancelling, H10-13X, and the other is not-H10-40. Naturally the 13X stays in the front. Noise with the std. headset is not bad although once youve tried the other its not hard to part with the bucks. With the std. headset the engine sounds like a normal internal combustion engine, but when you turn the power on the 13X it sounds like an electric motor - - -Nice. Lets talk about the noise. In my -4 I have no sound proofing at all. I have a dynafoke engine mount O-320 160 hp with sensenich metal prop. I think the majority of the noise comes from up front and your sitting in back inside the big speaker. Anything you can do to reduce any interferance between the engine and airframe will help, such as cables, baffling too close to cowling (I'm talking about the alum. part) and I think the biggest culprit is the exhaust sys. Most exhaust sys. require support on the rear and I have seen some that have went up to the engine mount or airframe via rubber strap. You've just transfered the noisiest part to the big speaker. The rest is pretty much a no brainer, canopy latches tight with no movement,air leaks, etc. Pat Carr "Backyard Bullet" 1997 Osh. Kit Built Champion ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Louis Willig <larywil(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
> >I have been using a set of pilot 8000 series headsets with the built in >intercom. My -4 is so noisy inside that the intercom is almost useless >and the low frequency noise feels like it is amplified inside the >headphone ear cups. Mike, I have been in 6 different RV-4's in the last 18 months. Some are much louder than others. I have noticed that some of the noise is front end related (engine/prop), other times it is related to fuselage vibrations/canopy sealing. An acquaintance has a 180 hp. RV-4. It is very beautiful and very smooth. But it does make noise with all that power and thrust. He, being an ag pilot, never heard of ANR headsets. (Ag pilots don't believe in doctors and long, wide runways either). After he used my headset during a demo ride, he put his own set away forever and purchased a set of ANR's of his own. I never wore a headset until three years ago. It was the dumbest thing I ever did. My C-150 is too loud for the foam ear plugs I used for 15 years. I picked up a set of Telex ANR's at 'Kosh and flying was never the same again. I believe there are better and maybe cheaper ANR's. Either way, when they work, they are great. If I forget to turn my set on to the "noise cancellation" position, I will feel it within 15 minutes. The super thing about ANR's is that they cut out the noise that hurts you the most. Let us know the results of your tests. Louis Willig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: noisy rv-4
Michael, One thing to check, if your engine is a dynafocal mount, is the lower engine mounts. Make sure that you have installed the thick washer properly so that the engine case isn't contacting the motor mount. If it is contacting, it will transmit a lot of engine vibration throughout the airframe with attendant noise plus other detrimental things. I saw one 180 h.p. RV-4 where one of the lower engine mount to firewall nuts was only being held on by the cotter pin. The nut and bolt were completely stripped of threads and the nut on the opposite corner of the mount was also partially stripped. Both bolts were floating in their holes. The owner swore that he had installed the vibration mounts properly. But quess what I found. I feel sure that the improperly installed washers were a major contributing factor to the resulting damage. Fortunately, enough noise had developed that he had already grounded the plane. Good thing, because another 5+ g pull that he was well known for doing, might have been the last! Another item that I experienced in my RV-6A, was exhaust pulse noise on the floor pan. I believe that has to do with the length and/or exit angle of the exhaust pipes. Originally my pipe ends were cut straight across and were at about a 30 degree angle to the pan. I trimmed the bottom of the pipes to be more streamlined and noticed a marked increase in noise level thereafter. Hope this helps. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA ---------- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Michael C. Lott Sent: Sunday, December 21, 1997 12:15 AM Subject: RV-List: noisy rv-4 I have been using a set of pilot 8000 series headsets with the built in intercom. My -4 is so noisy inside that the intercom is almost useless and the low frequency noise feels like it is amplified inside the headphone ear cups. They work fine in other less noisy airplanes, and are very comfortable. I don't believe any other regular headsets would work any better, since the background noise is so high. Today I bought some insulation that I will install from the firewall to the front seat area of the cockpit. I will totally cover every surface. It comes in about a 2 by 4 foot sheet and costs 65 dollars per sheet. I can't remember the name of it, but, it is FAA approved, is about 1/4 inch thick, has adhesive on one side and a very heavy aluminum foil type material on the other side. I will be trying out a set of David Clark headsets with the electric noise reduction kit installed also. This is a kit you can supposedly install in any headset for about 165 dollars. I don't think even a good anr headset will do much good unless I can get the background noise down quite a bit, since the background noise it what interferes with radio comms so much. Has anyone else run into high cockpit noise problems like this with their rv? I can't believe I'm the only one. (Well, I guess I could believe it, considering some of the other things I've done!) Merry Christmas. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
michael d hilger wrote: > > > Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's > that can be printed/downloaded? Mike, I've got them on disk. However they are in .GIF format. I'm not sure if they can be downloaded via a simple email service like Juno. I also have a Juno account, as a backup to my Sprint Internet Service. I'll send one file to myself & you. We'll see what happens. There are 32 files in all. Charlie Kuss RV-8 elevators Prepping for Alodining & painting ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)traveller.com>
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
Michael C. Lott wrote: > > > I have been using a set of pilot 8000 series headsets with the built in > intercom. My -4 is so noisy inside that the intercom is almost useless > and the low frequency noise feels like it is amplified inside the > headphone ear cups. They work fine in other less noisy airplanes, and > are very comfortable. I don't believe any other regular headsets would > work any better, since the background noise is so high. Today I bought > some insulation that I will install from the firewall to the front seat > area of the cockpit. I will totally cover every surface. It comes in > about a 2 by 4 foot sheet and costs 65 dollars per sheet. I can't > remember the name of it, but, it is FAA approved, is about 1/4 inch > thick, has adhesive on one side and a very heavy aluminum foil type > material on the other side. Michael, By all means, see if you can return the insulation! You need to fly with a set of active noise canceling headsets before you pursue the insulation route. You will be amazed at the amount of low frequency noise the ANR headsets will eliminate. These headsets are usually quite expensive in comparison to conventional sets. However, I have been flying a set of Lightspeed 15X headsets since Sun-N-Fun of last year in my Cub (kinda noisy with the door open) and have been totally satisfied (and amazed) with their performance. The radio calls are much easier to hear, and the Cub is much less fatiguing after a couple of hours than with the regular headsets. The Lightspeeds start at about $300. You will spend more than that on insulation plus add to the weight of the plane. The Lightspeeds weigh less than a pound, and are the most comfortable headsets I have worn. (I don't sell Lightspeed headsets.) Sam Buchanan] sbuc(at)traveller.com http://www.ath.tis.net/~sbuc/rv6 I will be trying out a set of David Clark > headsets with the electric noise reduction kit installed also. This is > a kit you can supposedly install in any headset for about 165 dollars. > I don't think even a good anr headset will do much good unless I can get > the background noise down quite a bit, since the background noise it > what interferes with radio comms so much. Has anyone else run into high > cockpit noise problems like this with their rv? I can't believe I'm the > only one. (Well, I guess I could believe it, considering some of the > other things I've done!) > Merry Christmas. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: pagan <pagan(at)cboss.com>
Subject: HS SPARS
The drawings for the HS 810 & 814 call for drilling a couple of the holes "in assembly with fuselage" Whoops!!!! I already pilot drilled these holes. Will this be a problem? Should I order new ones and start over? I know, I know attention to detail. Bill Pagan -8A HS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
> Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's >that can be printed/downloaded? I can't get Mike Talley's drawings from Mike, Vans use to have a pretty simple wiring diagram that they would send you. It was simple enough for me and it worked in the a/c. Don't know about a download. John Darby Stephenville TX johnd@our-town.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6 <RICKRV6(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: HS SPARS
Bill, If you're speaking of the four holes on the vertical flanges of HS-810 and HS-814 you won't have any problem. A mounting plate (F-881 I believeis the number) ties the front horizontal stab spar and the front vertical stab spar together. Just make sure later on you attach this plate using your predrilled holes as a guide. Worst case if you drilled the holes too wide would be to fabricate a larger F-881, which would be very easy to do. Drive on, you got off easy this time. Rick McBride RV-6 N523JC sold RV-8 80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DFaile <DFaile(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Unusual attitudes / IFR Flight
<< I thought the checkride requirement was simply that you demonstrate three >different types of approaches >> Speaking as a CFII who trains both Instrument Rating candidates and CFII candidates, the requirement for three different approaches, as verified with the FAA, is: One percision approach is required. The other two approaches must be different, but need not be a NDB approach. You courd do a VOR approach and a Localizer approach for the other two. You could also do a GPS approach if there is a Certified approach GPS in the airplane. If there is an ADF in the plane, a NDB approach can be requested for the Instrument Flight Test. We actually had an Instument candidate who had only a VOR/ILS and a second VOR in his aircraft for the test. His approaches were ILS, VOR, and LOC. If you have an IFR approach certified GPS (current database) you can do overlay approaches for the NDB approaches. david faile CFII/A&P Christen Eagle since '82 RV 6 in process ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bum flyer <Bumflyer(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
In a message dated 12/21/97 8:08:35 AM, you wrote: >Originally my pipe ends were cut straight across and were at >about a 30 degree angle to the pan. I trimmed the bottom of the pipes to be >more streamlined and noticed a marked increase in noise level thereafter. Please tell us what more streamlined means. I am very curious to hear how various angles and cut off shapes have produced. Further if there was any speed loss (drag increase) associated with cut angle or 'turn down" angle. Thanx D. Walsh ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowen.com>
Subject: Sheetmetal Tool Website
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Hi all. Has anyone looked at Brown's web site? In preparation for building an RV-8, I'm contemplating purchasing the following (found at http://www.browntool.com/rivetkits.htm): 376 PIECE MASTER SHEETMETAL TOOL KIT - $729.95 Our Master Sheetmetal Tool Kit contains just about everything you will need to build or maintain any sheetmetal aircraft. It is especially useful for home builders of the RV-4, RV-6, and RV-8 series aircraft. Our kit contains tools you will use I It is not loaded with "fluffy" tools which have little or no use. What has been the experience with Brown? How does this kit compare to the Avery kits? Thanks, Larry larry(at)bowen.com On Friday, December 19, 1997 10:33 AM, BrownTool [SMTP:BrownTool(at)aol.com] wrote: > > Our BRAND NEW Web site of Aircraft Sheetmetal Tools is up and running ! > > Please visit our On-Line Catalog featuring all of the products found in our > regular print catalog. Visit us at: > > http://www.browntool.com > > Please visit the site and let us know what you think. We are customer driven > and appreciate any comments. > [SNIP] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Japundza <bjapundza@iis-intellect.com>
Subject: Drill Bit Sharpening
Date: Dec 21, 1997
You guys are right, drill sharpening is not worth the time UNLESS you have several dull 12" drill bits that cost you 5-7 bucks apiece and you would like to continue to use them. I have been considering a buying a drill bit sharpener just to sharpen the half dozen or so long drill bits I have. Thanks, Bob Japundza Integrated Information Services, LLC bjapundza@iis-intellect.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
> Michael, > > By all means, see if you can return the insulation! NO, NO, NO! Keep it! That stuff is great! It's reasonably light, and it works really well (it's also good thermal insulation). I've used a lot of it. And I ALSO have ANR headsets. Why not shoot for the best noise attenuation possible. Really makes long flights much less fatiguing. > > You need to fly with a set of active noise canceling headsets before you > pursue the insulation route. Pursue both routes -You won't be sorry. > > a kit you can supposedly install in any headset for about 165 dollars. I have these kits (Headsets Inc. -excellent!) -one in a flightcom 4DX and one in a pair of DC H-10 30's . (Buy the Flightcoms) Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
> Has anyone else run into high >cockpit noise problems like this with their rv? I can't believe I'm the >only one. (Well, I guess I could believe it, considering some of the >other things I've done!) >Merry Christmas. Michael, What kind of exhaust system do you have and do they have "turn downs" or does the exhaust exit straight? How close are the exhaust pipes mounted to the fuselage bottom? Turn downs on the exhaust can make a very big difference in noise level. The before and after on my Vetterman S.S. crossover was dramatic. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
That insulation is expensive but it may be worth it. I once flew in a RV^6 that had the stuff from firewall to past the baggage bulkhead. It was an exceptionally nice plane and was equipped with a 3 blade prop. It was so quiet inside that you could probably be almost comfortable without a headset. You should look into some of the suggestions the other guys gave you ---as much noise as you seem to have may be a manifestation of some other anomoly. JR ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<349C6D70.9D781BD0(at)cdsnet.net>
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
>> I've been told about a brush-on adhesion promoter for tank sealant. >>If anyone wants, I can get the p/n for this material. > >Yes please! Hope it will be easier to get than the infamous GBP 988. >Fuel tank[1] ready to seal but every time I read the posts on this I >put the tank back in the corner and find something else to do! Derek, and others - I think a lot of people are making too big of a deal out of this. It just isn't that hard. Everyone on this list has an opinion on primers, engines, and how to seal a fuel tank. I tend to approach things from this standpoint: As long as it's safe, what is the easiest, least costly (money AND time) way to accomplish this that won't compromise esthetics? Building the fuel tank is VERY messy, but NOT difficult unless you make more work for yourself than necessary. The majority of RV's have been successfully built and flown with the instructions in Van's manual. A lot of people find it necessary to "improve" on these methods and usually end up with a lot more work, expense, and weight. This is fine if that's what they want to do (these are experimentals after all) but more work should not be construed as necessarily "better". I built my tanks according to Van's instructions and Orndorff's video. I scuffed the flashing areas, cleaned everything spotless with Coleman lantern fluid, kept them surgically clean and applied a moderate amount of proseal on the flanges. Simple, quick, messy, and it works. No anodizing, no etching, no going to every chemical supplier in the state trying to find the "right" stuff, no magic, and just a little swearing. You don't need an adhesive "promoter". Proseal is the stickiest substance on the planet, and will stick just fine, thank you, to anything that is clean. If it isn't clean, then all the promoter in the world isn't going to help. Naptha (Coleman lantern fluid) "promotes" cleanliness, which is the object. Just don't contaminate the surface afterward. This is not the only way, and others can do whatever they like, but I worry that some people with little building experience may look at some of these posts and think that the more complicated the process, the better it must be. Build it safe, light, simple, and straight. Extra strength and engineering over and above Van's plans are just extra weight to haul around and more months until you fly. Off the soapbox, Nomex on, Ed Bundy RV6A - first flight 11/20/96 ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
> > ><< Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's > that can be printed/downloaded? I can't get Mike Talley's drawings from > Hovan's web page ("page out of service" message). I've also checked the > Archives. >> > Our website hosts a set of wirebook drawings and some power distribution foldouts from the book. They're in AutoCADR12 and can be edited by R12 or higher, AutoCAD Lite and several other CAD programs. When the handout wirebook for our seminars is completed, it to will be available along with the reference designator list and bill of materials management software. Our first scheduled seminar is at George and Becky's on Feb 7-8 so the downloadable materials will be up on the site in that timeframe. In the mean time, people with access to AutoCAD compatable programs are welcome to hit: <http://www.aeroelectric.com/wirebook.exe> which will get you a wirebook in progress and our complete symbol library for editing/generating new drawings. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
<< Anybody know where one can find generic wiring diagrams for RV's that can be printed/downloaded >> I used the diagram from Tony Bingelis' books. You'll have to get 'em the old fashioned way however (by opening a book). Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: noisy rv-4
I think Bob Skinner expressed the idea better than I. The "turned down" pipes seemed quieter to me. What I meant by "streamlined" was making a cut at the end of the pipe parallel to the bottom of the fuselage. I presume that this let the exhaust pulses be pushed up by the slip stream to hit the pan rather than exit more down and out, particularly in a climb attitude. The "turned down" pipes might also create a little vacuum behind the cut off end to help scavenge the exhaust. Just my quess as I'm certainly not a rocket scientist (nor an aerodynamicist, either). Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA In a message dated 12/21/97 8:08:35 AM, you wrote: >Originally my pipe ends were cut straight across and were at >about a 30 degree angle to the pan. I trimmed the bottom of the pipes to be >more streamlined and noticed a marked increase in noise level thereafter. Please tell us what more streamlined means. I am very curious to hear how various angles and cut off shapes have produced. Further if there was any speed loss (drag increase) associated with cut angle or 'turn down" angle. Thanx D. Walsh ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
From: ron.taborek(at)flight642.com (RON TABOREK)
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Send unsubscribe to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com. Note that the address is different from that of the list itself. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dropped from list?? [Everyone should read
this!] 510-606-1001) > > >>-------------- >>Can you tell me why I was dropped from the rv-list? I had been on it >>for some time then it just stopped.... >> . . . . This has in turn caused an >increased problem with subscribers from ISPs such as AOL and Juno that have >mail message quotas. These systems have the habit of sending a message back >to the sender warning that the target mbox is full and not accepting >additional messages. > . . . . My only defense is to removed the accounts that are causing problems >with the idea that the person will login in at somepoint and clean up their >email box and resubscribe to the List when they realize that they have been >dropped. This is the reason I dropped my Compuserve account . . . 100 message limit. Couldn't go out of town or even neglect the e-mail for a full day (Now, I probably couldn't neglect it for more than 6 hours!). I called them and offered to pay for more e-mail storage but they said they couldn't do it. Hence our website address which has PLENTY of storage. For those who suffer from a server's inability to provide the product you want, let 'em know how unhappy you are with their policies. If that doesn't fix it, consider getting a REAL web connection service . . . I'm seeing rates as low as $15/month for unlimited connect time and 5 MB or more of personal disk space. The only way you'll get substandard services to measure up is take your business elsewhere . . . and that doesn't always work . . . sometimes they just die. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . . > < Show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: MoeJoe <moejoe03(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Sherwin Williams Primers
I use the 988 Self Etchig primer. It's good stuff, but you will eventually have to switch to a spray-on primer for large parts. (spray cans just won't cut it) You have to find a S/W Automotive supplier. I also worry about the corrosion protection it supplies. It isn't mil-spec. I'm going to switch to S/W wash primer, and use a Alodine treatment. Let me know how you make out. If I can find the S/W Automotive 800 number, I'll send it to you. Moe RV-8 Emp Nicholas Knobil wrote: > > > I just walked into my friendly local Sherwin Williams store and asked after some of that GBP-988 self-etching acid wash primer, and they looked over my shoulder into the parking lot to see what kind of spaceship I had just debarked from. > > They scratched their heads and shook dust out of their catalogs, and finally said, "Sonny, we sell paint here.". > > I told 'em that I heard about GBP-988 on the Internet so it MUST be true, right? > > Does this stuff (GBP-988) go by any other name that I could take down there with me? > > Your wisdom warmly appreciated, > > Nick Knobil > Bowdoinham, Maine > 08B > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: MoeJoe <moejoe03(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Sherwin Williams Primers
I am using the S/W 988 primer, and I'm wondering what others who use this product do about steel parts? I've heard the 988 isn't the best corrosion protection. Is it adequate for steel, or should I topcoat it. What should I topcoat it with? Moe RV-8 Emp Cherry Hill, NJ Scott A. Jordan wrote: > > > Message text written by INTERNET:rv-list(at)matronics.com > >I told 'em that I heard about GBP-988 on the Internet so it MUST be true, > right? > < > > As a matter of fact, I have a can in front of me right now. My next door > nieghbor sells automotive paint for S-W and this is one of the products he > sells to body shops etc. Find a body shop in your area that uses S-W paint > and ask if they will get some for you or if they can put you in cantact > with a rep. > > I have been very happy with the product, easy by put on and very durable. > > Scott A. Jordan > -8 #331 > N733JJ (reserved) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Bob Haan <bobh(at)cdac.com>
Subject: replacing those golden screws with allen head
bolts > >Fellow listers, > >I hate to say it, but I deleted the post that had the description of the >allen head screws/bolts to replace the flat head and C/S screws that Van >provides with the kit. I thought it would be easy to find them in a >catalog somewhere, but it wasn't. Will someone please post it again. > >Steve Soule Steve, Here it is. I added the washer to make it more complete. For both the access plate and the fuel sender plate I replaced the AN515-8R8 screws with AN3-4A bolts and an AN960-10 washer under the bolt head to get the proper grip length. See RV6 drawing 18a. To do this, I replaced the K1000-08 platenuts with K1000-3 platenuts and drilled #12 holes instead of #19. John Morgan at Van's thought this was a good alteration. He sent me all the necessary hardware. I like the result and would recommend it. I believe the bolts and the access plates well be able to be removed with a socket wrench while the wings are on. Bob Haan bobh(at)cdac.com Portland, OR 503-579-2729 RV6A 24461 Fuse out of jig, working on mounting tail ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bjnash(at)connectnet.com (BJ Nash)
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
Date: Dec 21, 1997
>> >>That insulation is expensive but it may be worth it. I once flew in a RV^6 >>that had the stuff from firewall to past the baggage bulkhead. It was an >>exceptionally nice plane and was equipped with a 3 blade prop. It was so quiet >>inside that you could probably be almost comfortable without a headset. You >>should look into some of the suggestions the other guys gave you ---as much >>noise as you seem to have may be a manifestation of some other anomoly. JR Our light weight "Super Sound Proofing Mat" is FAA approved and easily installed after reading our booklet "How to Soundproof Light Aircraft" It's free. Two new additions to our sound proofing arsenal - Super Sound Proofing Liquid and Super Sound Proofing Flooring Mat. The liquid can be painted on where mat is too difficult to apply firewalls, front and back, as well as for tail cones, etc. It reduces reverbant noise and acts as a absorbent. Easily applied with a brush. Super Sound Proofing Flooring is a mat, bonding a wear resistant heavy vinyl to a closed cell foam. It's a material about 1/4" thick for aircraft and vehicle floors to combat noise and vibration, especially low frequency. Sold by the running foot, it's 54" wide. Check the web page below for more info or call. http://www.freeyellow.com/members/aircraft-reman/page4.html Send email to infobot(at)pdsig.n2.net for a directory of interesting stuff! ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Bill Nash `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) Aircraft Remanufacturing Corp (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `.``-..-' 1531 Avohill Dr _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' Vista, Ca 92084 (760) 749 0239 (((),-'' (((),' (((.-' Email: bjnash(at)pdsig.n2.net Web Site: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/aircraft-reman/index.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BPattonsoa <BPattonsoa(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Randolph Ranthane andf Dupont Variprime?
I have used Dupont Variprime, self etching primer on my -6A. It is getting within a few months of paint time. I have primed all inside surfaces, and shoot a line of primer along each rivet line on the outside. (Primer under the rivets, good thing) So, I have been experimenting with Randolph Paint's Ranthane (polyurethane) finish. Was very pleased with my trial, flows well, shine like a mirror, etc. But... I shot the trial on a large piece of scrap that had been primed with Variprime. There appears to be no problem with the reaction between the two, at least in the couple of weeks since the trial. Scraping hard with a sharp object will remove the finish down to the bare metal. (scary) Of course Randolph says their product can only be used over their epoxy primer, which is what I would say if I were selling paint. But, the thought of shooting the plane with an epoxy primer, and the preperation for that, clean, etch, passivate, etc, is a bad dream. So the question is: Has anyone used this combination, and what is the result, expecially long term. Bruce Patton Instrument panel and Engine DONE! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com (Stephen Paul Johnson)
Subject: Inverted fuel anti-hangup
Hi all, Could someone explain the purpose of the anti-hangup guide that goes from the internal rib to the stiffener on the RV-8? I have fabricated the fuel tank with the stiffeners reversed from the plans so that the raised portion of the stiffeners faces forward to make riveting easier. It looks to me like there would be more danger of the flop tub hanging up between the anti-hangup guide and the stiffener than there would be without the guide at all. Steve Johnson RV-8 #80121 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: VIRGIL Y <VIRGILY(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
RDonley103(at)aol.com, president(at)whitehouse.gov, 76455.1602(at)compuserve.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com, Odelllove(at)aol.com, CTCSmith(at)aol.com, Airtoby(at)aol.com, 76455.1602(at)compuseve.com, jh6(at)MUW.Edu, JGILES4790(at)aol.com, VIRGILY(at)aol.com, mary_akins(at)reyrey.com, bstrait(at)compuserve.com, alex(at)traveller.com, zwingli(at)juno.com (Jeremy P. Soilea)
Subject: MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR IN 1998
MERRY CHARISTMAS EVERYBODY AND I WISH YOU A VERY PROSPEROUS HAPPY NEW YEAR FOR 1998 AND BEYOND......!! Virgil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: noisy rv-4
Date: Dec 20, 1997
---------- > From: Michael C. Lott <lottmc(at)datastar.net> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: noisy rv-4 > Date: Sunday, December 21, 1997 2:15 AM > > > I have been using a set of pilot 8000 series headsets with the built in > intercom. My -4 is so noisy inside that the intercom is almost useless > and the low frequency noise feels like it is amplified inside the > headphone ear cups It was not clear to me what your problem is: 1) If intercom transmissions are buried in background noise, the noise-canceling mic is not well designed or not working properly. 2) If you hear too much noise thru the headsets then the ear seals are not sealing properly (gel are the best). 3) ANR works great for periodic noise, such as the engine or engine-induced noise and its harmonics. ANR does nothing for wind noise which is random, "white" noise". Bose headsets in the noisiest of RVs will subtract engine noise completely. Dennis RV6A fuselage N9DP amateur extra class ham (wish I could get THAT N-number!) Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Noisy -4
I am definitely going to use the insulation i bought, for sound as well as temperature insulation. I am trying some turn downs on the exhaust pipes. The ones on it now are just cut off square with the pipe. I will check for any contact between engine and airframe components. As i said before, I don't think it matters what type headsets I use until I get the background noise down to acceptable levels. Even though I might hear better with the anr type headsets, they wouldn't help who I was talking to hear me any better. This noise is much more pronounced above about 2300-2400 rpm's. I mean what seems to be twice as loud to me. It sounds like the exhaust is beating directly on a big bass drum. (How's that for a description?) I will let the list know if I find anything, though it will be a week or two before I have time to dig into it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HillJW <HillJW(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: RV 8 VS RV 6
AM JUST AT THE STAGE OF CONSIDERING WHICH KIT--RV8 VS. RV6. WHAT IS THE PREVELANT OPINION OUT THERE CONCERNING STRENGTH: THE 8 WING SPARS DON'T CARRY THROUGH LIKE THE 6. ANY CONCERN ABOUT THAT???? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darrell L. Anderson" <d.l.anderson(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Impressions Of My New Constanst Speed Prop Compared To Wood
Date: Dec 21, 1997
---------- From: Scott Johnson[SMTP:rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:04 PM Subject: RV-List: Impressions Of My New Constanst Speed Prop Compared To Wood >I took off my wood prop from my RV6A today and replaced it with a brand new >Hartzell constant speed prop from VANS. >the rest snipped< Thanks, you've sold me on a CS prop. Now, what was the new fly-off period required by the FAA for this "major modification"? ;-) ....just wonderin' D. Anderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Cowling Blankets for RV's
Scott Johnson wrote: > I installed the Reiff cylinder and oil pan heaters that plug into 120v AC > for my RV6A. > > However, to keep that heat in the engine, I need to make a blanket to go > over the cowling for insulation. > > Obviously this blanket is going to have to be waterproof. > > The only thing I can thing of is to take a wool blanket and attach > waterproof tarp on both sides of the blanket. This seems kind of funky. > > Does anybody have any ideas ? Scott and others, I'm on the list to learn about RV's, not to sell stuff, but since you asked... In addition to engine heaters we sell custom fitted, insulated, waterproof covers for engine cowlings, prop blades, and prop hub/spinners for most certified aircraft. I've been thinking about doing them for RV's, but frankly no one has ever asked for one before. If there is interest we'll make the patterns and start supplying them. Cost would be about $220. A description and photos are available on our web site: http://www.execpc.com/reiff A sample of the material we use is available on request. A lower cost option is to just stuff foam rubber plugs into the cowl inlets and throw an old quilt, moving banket or sleeping bag over the cowling. One local guy who owns a funeral home even uses a casket cover. These work fine if the airplane is in a hanger, but outside a fitted cover is better because it won't blow off and it's waterproof. Merry Christmas. Bob Reiff RV4 #2646, building fuselage Reiff Preheat Systems FAA-PMA aircraft preheat systems, RV wing skin heaters. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Boris <smbr(at)digital.net>
Subject: Re: No primer required
I would strongly disagree, especially if one plan for an aircraft to be around more than 10 years or so. Although I live in Florida, near the coast, I've seen unprimed spam-cans from all over and lots of major corrosion. Along the coast here, major priming is necessary for longevity and security. > Consider where you are. If on the coast, or in a humid area, I would consider > a light prime inside. Otherwise, my choice is just to prime where surfaces > contact and all non-alclad parts. This seems to be a good compromise. I tend > to agree with the one lister who says that priming tends to be overdone. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod <WoodardRod(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Sherwin Williams Primers
> I am using the S/W 988 primer, and I'm wondering what others who use > this product do about steel parts? I've heard the 988 isn't the best > corrosion protection. Is it adequate for steel, or should I topcoat it. > What should I topcoat it with? > On the advice of an EAA tech counselor, A&P, EIEIO and RV-8 builder, I am using good 'ole Rustoleum for my steel parts. He suggested white because it would be easiest to inspect. The other thing that's nice is that it comes in spray and liquid forms. I bought a quart of the non spray variety to pour inside steel tubing--for the elevator control horns, as an example. Rod Woodard RV-8, #80033 [right elevator finished, wating on replacement parts for the left] Loveland, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Fuel leak in cabin???
I seem to have developed a fuel leak inside the cabin of my 25 hour old RV-6A. However, the only time I can smell it is when the boost pump is on while flying for more than a couple of minutes. As soon as I shut down the pump, the smell goes away. A few days ago, I crawled underneath and inspected all the plumbing. There was no sign of any leakage, smell or stains. Then, with the engine off, I turned on the pump and let it run for 5-6 minutes. Still no sign of anything. My guess now is that when the boost pump in running in combination with the engine driven pump's pressure at high power settings, the combined pressure backing up in the lines is forcing a leakage in one of the fittings. Does this make sense? I'm not looking forward to crawling head first under the panel to inspect the lines with those 180 horses whirling around at takeoff power. Any suggestions??? Andy ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tank sealing process
<19971221.112332.10422.0.ebundy(at)juno.com>
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 21, 1997
>Off the soapbox, Nomex on, >Ed Bundy RV6A - first flight 11/20/96 ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID And I'll stand by you with the fire extinguisher. (That's basically what I was trying to say with my post) Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Fuel leak in cabin???
Put some talcum powder or similar in a squeeze bulb and immediantly after running up dust the suspected fittings. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Paint Schemes
Tom Brandon wrote: > > > Does anyone have a collection of pictures of RV- paint schemes? > Tom Brandon > Murray, Ky. > RV-8 next year > just dreaming this year If you do, please post them to the list, interior color schemes would nice to. I just recevied from DJ lauritson(sp) fabric types, and colors, It's going to be a tough choice, it's one I will have to live with for a long time so I don't want to get it wrong. I would be greatful for any help. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel leak in cabin???
<349D9E29.3302(at)rkymtnhi.com>
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Dec 21, 1997
>I'm not looking forward to crawling head first under the panel to >inspect the lines with those 180 horses whirling around at takeoff >power. > >Any suggestions??? >Andy As long as you are using 100LL for fuel you shouldn't have too much trouble finding the leak. The blue dye in the fuel doesn't evaporate and usually will leave a tell tail stain in the area that the fuel is leaking. I am doubtful that you are seeing back pressure from the engine pump causing a leak. It may be more related to how air moves around in the cockpit (from heater air, small air leaks etc.) that allows you to smell it after a few minutes. I would guess that it is probably a very small leak so it takes a while for the fumes to develop to where you can smell them up high in the cockpit. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Mark Nielsen <Mark.Nielsen@fiedler-lp.com>
Subject: Re: solar battery chargers
>On the subject of using cigarette lighter sockets, has anyone found a >easy way to keep a plug in when using it for things like a GPS? I cut the wire between my GPS 195 and the cigarette lighter plug. I installed a standard power plug on the GPS end and an in-line socket on the plug end of the cut wire. I installed a panel mount power socket in my airplane. When I am flying, I have a short power cord directly from the GPS to the socket (no extra wire to get in the way). If I ever want to use the cigarette adapter elsewhere, I just unplug the power cord from my panel socket and plug it into the in-line socket which I mounted on the other end of the cut wire. The power plugs and sockets are available at Radio Shack. I think mine has a 2.5 mm plug. Mark Nielsen RV-6; flying. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Sheetmetal Tool Website
Date: Dec 21, 1997
I've bought a few things from Browns recently and they seem fine, just like Avery and Cleaveland. Brian Eckstein ---------- > > Hi all. > > Has anyone looked at Brown's web site? In preparation for building an > RV-8, I'm contemplating purchasing the following (found at > http://www.browntool.com/rivetkits.htm): > > 376 PIECE MASTER SHEETMETAL TOOL KIT - $729.95 > > Our Master Sheetmetal Tool Kit contains just about everything you will need > to build or maintain any sheetmetal aircraft. It is especially useful for > home builders of the RV-4, RV-6, and RV-8 series aircraft. Our kit contains > tools you will use I It is not loaded with "fluffy" tools which have little > or no use. > > > What has been the experience with Brown? How does this kit compare to the > Avery kits? > > Thanks, > > Larry > larry(at)bowen.com > > On Friday, December 19, 1997 10:33 AM, BrownTool [SMTP:BrownTool(at)aol.com] > wrote: > > > > Our BRAND NEW Web site of Aircraft Sheetmetal Tools is up and running ! > > > > Please visit our On-Line Catalog featuring all of the products found in > our > > regular print catalog. Visit us at: > > > > http://www.browntool.com > > > > Please visit the site and let us know what you think. We are customer > driven > > and appreciate any comments. > > [SNIP] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sherwin Williams Primers
Message text written by INTERNET:rv-list(at)matronics.com >I also worry about the corrosion protection it supplies. It isn't mil-spec. I'm going to switch to S/W wash primer, and use a Alodine treatment.< My neighbor / SW rep was also concerned when the 988 was introduced. He primed a piece of steel and then scratched it with a nail and left it outside for a few weeks in the rain. He did the same with Mar Hide. Of course, both pieces showed rust where he scratched but the Mar Hide also bubled up the primer around the scratch due to rust spreading under the primer. The SW piece showed no signs of migrating, the rust was confined to the scratch itself. I'll let you decide if this is an adequate and appropriate test. The number to call for info is 800-SW ULTRA Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 Getting ready for wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Instruments, avionics, etc.
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Listers, I'm getting ready to start ordering stuff to finish out my RV-6A. I'm finding that Van's catalog has prices that are hard to beat on most items. However, there are many items I need opinions on because I have no idea how well they work. If you will, comment on those you know. I'd sure appreciate it since I don't want junk instruments and such. Panel lighting: I'll not be using internal lighting; so, I'm picking between the eyeball and rotating map lights. Transponder: I currently use a KT76A in my Cheetah. However, I'm leaning toward the Terra with Terra encoder. ELT: ACK or AMERI-KING? UMA instruments: Suction, fuel pressure, oil pressure, and manifold pressure. I vaguely remember the tach they had was a problem? ISSPRO: Oil pressure, oil temp, voltmeter, ammeter. I could easily go with Mitchell or Stuart Warner on these. The price is more steep, though. No, I don't want digital. I like analog better. United: VSI, Altimeter, airspeed. I'd like an electronic tach. Any ideas without shooting my wallet that's already beginning to suffer? :-) Of course, mechanical is fine. If mechanical, how about the cable lengths? The G-meter in the catalog. I'm probably going to have the oil cooler Van sells. Any opinions on the firewall mounting. I've not had a problem with my engine mounted cooler on my Cheetah. However, I know vibration can do damage over the long haul. That should do for right now. Again, any comments are welcomed. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (Doing seat front floors.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: John Ammeter <ammeterj(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel leak in cabin???
I had exactly the same symptoms; fuel smell only when the boost pump was on. What I found was that the primer line had broken _inside_ the fitting on the top of the gascolator. The flare had cracked away from the tubing. Whenever the boost pump was on fuel would be forced out at this point. Luckily, even though it was spilling near the exhaust pipe no fire developed. Just occurred to me that obviously the firewall wasn't totally 'tight' since the fuel 'smell' was evident inside the cabin. Anyway, wouldn't hurt for you to check all the lines between the boost pump and the engine driven pump. You wouldn't have to be running the engine to find the leak. Just turn on the boost pump and wait for the odor or evidence of fuel leaking. Wouldn't hurt to have a fire extinguisher handy. Good luck and let us know what you find. > >I seem to have developed a fuel leak inside the cabin of my 25 hour old >RV-6A. However, the only time I can smell it is when the boost pump is >on while flying for more than a couple of minutes. As soon as I shut >down the pump, the smell goes away. > John Ammeter ammeterj(at)seanet.com Seattle WA USA 1974 1/2 JH-5 RV-6 N16JA First flight August 1990 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ShowCtrGuy <ShowCtrGuy(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Need Advice On Making Cowling Blanket, I am using Reiff Winter
He << > I hate to sound like a self proclaimed know it all or > >anything.. but > >isn't that the whole point, the fins should get warm before anything >>else.. >>because they disperse heat and all.. just kinda thought that one over, >>and >>seems to me that it should work like that... >Sorry I'm not quite sure what your statement means because the post was >talking about engine preheaters that you plug into 110 A.C. >The original poster said that besides an oil sump heater he also >installed heating elements that would heat the cylinder barrels. >I was stating for information that at moderately cold temps. the >cylinders even warm up using only the oil sump heater. Which is mounted >on the bottom of the loil sump (a long way from the cylinders). >Maybe I wasn't very clear. >> Whoopsie-- Sorry about that then! Jeremy King RV4 #3981 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
From: m.talley(at)juno.com (Michael L Talley)
I have had contact with another web site and plan to put my diagrams there as soon as I have time and we can work out the format download problems. In the meantime anyone who wants the data can contact me directly at my juno account and we can try downloading directly. I have to use my AOL account for this type of thing as juno won't accept attached files. Mike Talley m.talley(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: replacing those golden screws with allen head bolts
Stephen J. Soule wrote: > > > Fellow listers, > > I hate to say it, but I deleted the post that had the description of the > allen head screws/bolts to replace the flat head and C/S screws that Van > provides with the kit. I thought it would be easy to find them in a > catalog somewhere, but it wasn't. Will someone please post it again. Steve; Find a buddy that works in an industrial plant and have him get you a few, or contact any industrial fastner supplier and ask for socket head cap screws. Allen ( TM ) is a brand name, not a type of screw although a lot of people refer to socket heads as Allen heads. John Kitz N721JK Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Mark Nielsen <Mark.Nielsen@fiedler-lp.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Gross wt q's
> Aircraft aluminum structures are built to design limits with a safety >margin of 1.5 x design limits. What this means is the structure in the >case of Van's planes designed to 6+ and 4- at an aerobatic gross weight of >say 1375# for the RV-6 and 1500# for the RV-8. What this means is that the >wing begin to permanently deform at 6 g's. The focus here is you can pull >6 g's on the aircraft at any weight given the strength of tug on the stick. > The metal will start deformation at 6 g's and at that point will become >stronger after the metal has hit yield point and will literally break at 9 >g's if it has been designed and properly assembled. I have never seen Van's structural calculations, but I suspect that the above description is not correct. Typically, the allowable bending stress in a beam is 0.66 Fy. (Fy = Minimum yield stress. Yield stress is the stress at which a metal begins to undergo a permanent deformation.) To be able to use an allowable bending stress of .66 Fy, the compression flange must be adequately supported against lateral torsional buckling. In the case of an RV wing, the beam (spar) is given this lateral support by the skin and ribs. I suspect that Van designed the wing to 6g (at aerobatic wt.) using the standard allowable bending stress. If this is so, then the so called "ultimate" load would be obtained as follows: 1.0/.66 * 6g = 9g 9g then becomes the theoretical stress level at which the spar begins to be permanently deformed. When the stress level is increased beyond the yield point, work hardening takes place. The metal can then withstand additional stress until it ultimately fractures. For most metals, this breaking strength, or ultimate tensile strength (Fu) is considerably higher than Fy. For 2024 T3 aluminum Fy=42 ksi (kips [1000 lbs] per square inch) and Fu is 64 ksi. Using these numbers the theoretical breaking point of an RV wing in bending would be 64/42 * 9g = 13.7g. Please understand, there are many other failure modes and design considerations in addition to the simple bending example explained above. Also, there are very good reasons why design stress levels are kept lower than the measured material strengths. The bottom line is -- if you are flying in the 6g to 9g range, you are "skating on thin ice". If you get to the point where you are permanently bending metal, your remaining flying time may be measured in fractions of a minute, unless you are very lucky. Mark Nielsen RV-6; flying. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag <LesDrag(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 21, 1997
Subject: Re: RV-6A Antenna's
> >Has anyone ever tried to put a VOR, GS and/or comm antenna in the >base of the cowling? It would seem that you could take a piece of the >1/4" alarm tape that they put on a window and glue it either on the >inside or outside of the cowling base near the firewall. Attache a >short piece of coax directly to the tape with a BNC connector on the >other end. Then, put another BNC on the firewall. This seems too >easy and I've can't say I've ever heard of anyone trying this. Coax >runs are shorter which would minimize losses and at least the VOR/GS >antennas would be correctly polarized. I don't know how much noise >the engine produces and if this is something to worry about. Any >comments? Gary RV-6 20038 finishing I've talked with Bob Archer about this in the past. The metal of the engine near the bottom of the cowl will cause the antenna to "see" (my interpertation, not Bob's words.) straight down, but not very well forward, aft, or to the sides. If you want to experiment with antenna's in the cowl, please let us know what you find out. If you want to talk to a highly experienced and successful antenna designer, contact Bob Archer at 74301.1665(at)compuserve.com, or (310) 316-8796. IMHO, if you just want a "no drag" VOR/GS antenna that works very well, use the Sportcraft NAV antenna. Jim Ayers LOM M332A engine Warnke Wood Prop Sportcraft Antennas RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder LesDrag(at)aol.com Thousand Oaks, California USA http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/rv3.htm http://member.aol.com/lesdrag/Ivoprop.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring Diagrams
>I used the diagram from Tony Bingelis' books. You'll have to get 'em the old >fashioned way however (by opening a book). >Gary Corde You tell 'em, Gary. Tony's books are a good resource. Another very good resource is Bob Nuckoll's, AeroElectric Connection. I don't understand some of the "electronic graphics" that the pros use so I kind of drew out my own schematics using ideas from Tony & Bob in a format that I could follow and understand. I thought the electrics and the panel were the most fun part of the project. I didn't know zip before I started but everything worked out fine (no smoldering wires and everything worked.) Unfortunately, most of what I learned, I'll probably have to re-learn on the next project. But, as Gary says, I can always crack the 'ol books. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hrs Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Flap spar oopsie
Date: Dec 21, 1997
I goofed when trimming the flap spar. (Or is it the aileron spar that you trim a quarter inch?) Anyways, I did exactly what the manual tells you not to do, and I trimmed it backwards -- took it off the bottom instead of the top. Okay, okay. I should know better than to cut anything after 11 at night. What can I say? I figure my options are: 1. Order a new piece. 2. Retrim the existing piece, fudging a little, then make do as best I can. Any reason why #2 is a bad idea? Thanks. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: HS SPARS
> >The drawings for the HS 810 & 814 call for drilling a couple of the holes >"in assembly with fuselage" Whoops!!!! I already pilot drilled these >holes. Will this be a problem? Should I order new ones and start over? I >know, I know attention to detail. > >Bill Pagan >-8A HS > Bill, I also made the same mistake. I still used the splice angles as I had alot of time into them. I am still on the tail and am hoping this can be worked around later. We'll see I guess. Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 Rudder > > > > Jon Elford RV 6A #25201 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 1997
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Drill Bit Sharpening
After reading the dull drill thread (no pun intended) I stumbled on the Drill Doctor in the Northern Tools catalogue. Page 66 list two models with the first sharpening from 3/32 to 1/2 and the second from 3/32 to 3/4. A little pricey at 127.00 and 169.99 respectively. Sure can toss a lot of #30 and #40 bits for those prices. On the other hand 1/2 and 3/4 bits could pay for the machine in short order. Gary Zilik RV-6A finishing wings/fusalage jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: Sherwin Williams Primers
Bob Skinner wrote: > I'm using the S-W Industrial Wash primer (P60 G2 & R7 K44) on my 2nd RV. > The label states that this primer should not be used on treaded surfaces, > alodine for aluminum or iron or zinc phosphate on steel. It also says not > to use it on blasted surfaces. I like to bead blast my steel parts, so > using this primer on those parts would be a no-no. > Hello Bob; ________________________________________________________________________________ rep recommended SW E2-G980 self etching filler. He contacted a SW area rep and they felt that it was the best SW had and I painted every single part in my RV-4 with it, inside and out. I poured it inside my control tubes, I dipped threaded parts in it before assembling, and on and on. It didn't even burn off when I poured the molten lead in the elevator horns. The spec sheet says: Salt spray resistance--Excellent 500 hours Humidity resistance Excellent 500 hours When I looked it over on the conditional inspection, it looked like new inside. Seems like good stuff to me. John Kitz N721JK 190+ hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 1997
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: starting up for the first time
Today was a good day, even the fact that someone ran into the door of my Honda Accord today could not ruin it. WE fired that mother up for the first time today and taxied around the ramp a few times. We do however have a few problems. the left mag runs real ruff (I think this was why we had a hard time starting it)I'm not sure why but the RPM drop was about 300, the right mag ran very smooth 50- 75 RPM drop. The left brake made some loud groans, while the right made none at all, the right brake felt smoother also. I think most of these problems can be solved easy enough( I hope) My three friends and fellow builders Hal Benjamen, Jerry Isler, and Jim Cammons were all a big help looking over the engine while it was running ( finding the oil leak) and manning the fire extinguishers just in case. I was nervous just starting it up, I'll be a basket case for the first flight.(good thing I won't be flying it) Seasons greeting to all Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH Tallahassee,FL. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 1997
From: "les williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Instruments, avionics, etc.
I'm getting ready to start ordering stuff to finish out my RV-6A. I'm finding that Van's catalog has prices that are hard to beat on most items. However, there are many items I need opinions on Panel lighting: eyeball works good. Bought rotating one this time. Transponder: Had a KT76A no problems, bought a KT76C($$$). ELT: ACK ! Had an Ameri-King encoder, shabby assembly IMO. UMA instruments: A lot of guys use them, but my experience with a manifold gauge was terrible. Also don't like plumbing fuel and oil to the gauges, so prefer electric for these. ISSPRO: Oil pressure, oil temp, voltmeter, ammeter. If you want aircraft style face plates, go with Mitchell. I had six in my first airplane that worked well. United: VSI, Altimeter, airspeed. Good. I'd like an electronic tach. Any ideas without shooting my wallet that's already beginning to suffer? :-) Of course, mechanical is fine. If mechanical, how about the cable lengths? Any speedometer shop can make a cable for you. Just tell them how long. I'm probably going to have the oil cooler Van sells. Mounted similar on 0-320 and am planning on doing same again on 0360 with a door, if it will fit behind #4 cyl. on baffle. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (Doing seat front floors.) My nickels worth. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 1997
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sheetmetal Tool Website
> Has anyone looked at Brown's web site? In preparation for building an

December 17, 1997 - December 21, 1997

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