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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD25EB.BA4B9620-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 1998
From: Thomas Velvick <rver(at)caljet.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator travel
>I just mounted the right elevator onto the HS as per the plans (2.25 in. >between the spars). I have about 3in. downward travel at the trailing edge >before the horn contacts the HS rear spar. Three in. tangent on about 15 in. >radius is about 11.5 degrees of travel. Is this sufficient? Thank you oh >wise ones. > >Dennis Clay Dennis, This is not enough. You can find the degrees up down needed in Section 15 - Final inspection and flight test It's page 15-1 in my manual. The maximum up/down is 30/25 and the minimum degrees up/down is 25/20. A lot of builders have to trim the rear spar flange to get these ranges. The good news is that you don't have to do it until after you assemble the tail to the fusilage. :) Regards, Tom Velvick rv-6a tanks Phoenix, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Source
Don Champagne wrote: > > > Gentlemen, > > I'm in the need of a 50/60amp alternator. I curently have Van's 35amp > and it will not handle the loads I will have in the plane. Does someone > have a replacement model I could purchase that would handle the load and > not break the bank. I looked into a "Pelecan" but discovered that they > are out of business. > > Appreciate your help, > Don > Mark Landoll who has an RV, sells a 60 amp alternator with internal voltage regulators and cooling fan for $115 plus shipping. He advertises in Sport Aviation under "Engines". He lives in a town south of me. I would be glad to contact him for you and get the specs. Let me know. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Updated web site
Date: Jan 20, 1998
> I have added two new items to my web site: > > http://www.flash.net/~donmack Don -- I just added a link to your home page from the Minnesota Wing's "Other Links" section. As I always do, I traverse the links to make sure they work, which means I land at your web site. And lo and behold, I see the following text: Total Construction Time: 93.65 hours tail kit complete. You're disgusting. It took me close to 200! Good job. -Joe (Mn Wing is at http://www.showpage.org/rv-grp.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 20, 1998
Subject: Re: rv-6a d-section wing skin
<< at the skin joint on top of the spar flange, do you dimple the skin and c-sink the flange or just c-sink the skin? >> My rule is always dimple, except when you can't. If I read your question correctly, You are attaching the LE skin to the spar. This is always a dimple dimple IMO. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Ed Bundy wrote: > > > Hi Jerry, welcome to the list. I won't use the "P" word. Rustoleum > might be a bit too "cost effective" for this project. See the archives > for LOTS of info. I don't think offsetting the HS will help much, but > offsetting the VS might... ;-) You don't need to offset it, but on > advise of local builders I offset mine 1/4" and it was perfect. Don't > buy the engine now. A good mutual fund will keep up or beat the price > increases, and storing an engine for 3-4 years is not very good for the > engine. > > Ed Bundy RV6A - first flight 11/20/96 > ebundy(at)juno.com - Eagle, ID > Thanks Ed, I was thinking VS and typed HS. On Rustoleum, I may still use it on steel parts. My machinist brother-in-law uses it on industrial equipment(steel) that he builds and swears by it. I will probably go with Vari-prime on the aluminum. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 1998
From: John Ammeter <ammeterj(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
> >. >One other observation. I thought my biggest problem would be "smileys" and I >thought a rubber guard was a must. My instructor encouraged me to try the >"bare" flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the dimpled >skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting and that controlling >the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Is this picture correct >or am I kidding myself? > >Chris Browne >RV-6 Emp > I agree with you. I found that I made much better 'shop heads' when I used the bare flush set than when I used the swivel set with the rubber guard. I really don't know why but I could guess it was because I was forced to consciously keep the rivet gun at a 90 angle to the surface while the swivel set was more tolerant. Unfortunately, when the swivel set was off from a 90 degree angle it tended to 'walk' off from the rivet. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)seanet.com Seattle WA USA 1974 1/2 JH-5 RV-6 N16JA First flight August 1990 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Date: Jan 20, 1998
>Having just started, I spent Saturday afternoon and the last few evenings >practicing riveting 426 and 470 -4 and -3 rivets. I quickly reached the >conclusion that, doubtless, everyone else has. A few lousy rivets are >inevitable and drilling them out is tricky, at best. I have been advised by >my "riveting instructor" from my EAA chapter who restores aircraft for a local >museum that it is best to leave rivets alone unless they are really egregious. >I am inclined to agree, but I have only driven 300 hundred or so. Given that >there are about 13,000 these to do, I would like to set reasonable standard >without being to anal - its an airplane, not a watch. >One other observation. I thought my biggest problem would be smileys and I >thought a rubber guard was a must. My instructor encouraged me to try the >bare flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the dimpled >skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting and that controlling >the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Is this picture correct >or am I kidding myself? > >Chris Browne >RV-6 Emp Chris, Nope, you're not kidding yourself...just trying to find a level of quality and safety that you can live with..as we all have. My findings in this area thus far (tail done, wings underway) are that quality tools (sets, gun, squeezer, etc.) are major contributors to rivet quality. ATS sets SUCK...Avery's sets are superb. The swiveling, rubber guarded flush set they make is a GODSEND..no more smileys, and the flush heads are absolutely tight into the dimple. I've used a plain, non-guarded set and the results are NO BETTER..but it's MUCH easier to slip and ding the skin. It is important to keep firm pressure against the skin with the swivel set..but this is simply proper technique..nothing more. And, tis true that bucking bar control is critical...so the person holding it, needs to develop a "feel" for it..and nothing but practice will provide this. (that's what scrap material is for!). I've just about given up on trying to squeeze #4 rivets...I already tweaked a squeezer out of whack (crappy, imported tool) by squeezing too many of these..and have found that zapping them with the gun works just fine...just make sure the part is firmly clamped in place so it can't get away from you. I bought a Tatco squeezer, and now only use it for dimpling and setting #3 rivets..with perfect accuracy. I hope this helps you somewhat, and it WILL get better! Oh, and I fully agree with you that we're building airplanes...NOT watches! Can you imagine the results of a burst from a 3X gun on a Rolex?? :) Keep the faith.. Brian Denk -8 #379 ailerons done, flaps this week ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric.Henson(at)cendantmobility.com
Date: Jan 20, 1998
Subject: What was that sound??
Hey Mark, got that Champ all polished up and ready for the race? >> We are all invited to participate in the bracket races (time to climb). << Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 1998
From: "Michael J. Robbins" <kitfox(at)gte.net>
Subject: RVs in the SoCal Area
Any of you based near Torrance, California? I'm suppose to ferry an R-22 helicopter from Seattle to Torrance on Thurs & Fri. Will be at Torrance Friday afternoon and Saturday (weather permitting). Mike Robbins RV-8 (still looking at the box) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Elevator travel
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 21, 1998
> >Greetings all, >I just mounted the right elevator onto the HS as per the plans (2.25 >in. >between the spars). I have about 3in. downward travel at the trailing >edge >before the horn contacts the HS rear spar. Three in. tangent on about >15 in. >radius is about 11.5 degrees of travel. Is this sufficient? >Dennis Clay >RV-8 #473 >Waitin for da wings > > No, it isn't. You need to have the amount that is called for when doing the control rigging with the fuselage. I think it is 25 deg down and 35 deg up but I can't remember for sure. To get the proper amount of down travel you will have to trim away a portion of the flange on the rear spar where the control horns make contact. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VS Offset
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 21, 1998
> > >Isn't the engine mount slightly offset already? Yes it is. I would caution anyone who >might be considering offsetting the VS to first talk with Van's about >it. I agree with Scott, and will reiterate something that Jerry Springer alluded to. There are a lot of other factors that can effect the yaw trim on an RV, and we can't generalize and say that they all need right rudder trim. I can't explain why when an RV does require rudder trim, that it is usually right rudder. In response to the original question of offsetting the vert. stab to help with the need for rudder in a climb... It may help but then what do you do once your at cruise speed? A >few years ago, their position was to not offset the VS. An offset VS >will >impact other parts of the aircraft, such as the fiberglass empennage >fairing. > >For what it's worth, my personal experience is that with a well built >RV, >the offset VS may not be needed. >Scott Gesele N506RV - Flying (and loving it :)))))) > > My experience also. I have also been involved in moving the vert stab to try and adjust yaw trim and from what I have seen moving the L.E. of the stab 1/4 in to the left (same as right rudder trim) provides the same aerodynamic effect of a rather small trim tab on the rudder (a tab on the rudder produces a lot more trimming authority). So IMO any one that mounted the stab with an offset and then has an airplane that flys in trim probably would have required a very small rudder tab if the stab had been installed on the center line. BTW the yellow RV-8 prototype has a very small trim tab on the rudder for... Left rudder trim. Either the engine offset will be very close for the IO-360 engine or we didn't build the airplane perfectly straight (the Yellow RV-8 has an O-320 that put's out about 170 H.P.). I guess we will have to wait and see what the RV-8A does for trim, the plan is to put an IO-360 in it. I would recommend that you mount it straight and adjust with a trim wedge later if necessary. My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with a small trim tab on the rudder. I think I would be more embarrassed to have done all the work to move the stab from center, and then have a trim tab for left rudder to correct the correction that wasn't needed! Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: GAscolator
Mark, You might want to check the Anadair Gascolator. (not sure if thats the correct spelling) They make a beautifully machined unit its a little pricey but very nice and will handle the higher pressures. I believe Chief Aircraft, and Spruce carry them, Vans may carry them. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
I prefer the 1-1/4 flush set. Not impressed with the rubber ones at all---maybe good for starting out but like when learning to ride a bike it's a whole lot better once you loose the training wheels. (not intended as an insult to anyone). If your partner is backing you up (bucking) I find it useful to hold the gun with one hand cradleing the mushroom set's opposing edges with thumb and forefinger. This results in a "living rubber cushion" that is very sensitive to what is happening at the gun -skin - rivet interface. Also helps keep it from skipping away and helps you square up. Back riveting does work very well esp. on the .016 skins. Everone has a variety of techniques that they use for a particular situation---and maybe the rubber cushioned sets are occasionally useful but I think it may become a crutch you would rather not develop a need for. Will fly some day when I can stop building other peoples toys. JR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: GAscolator
<< ACS sells two models-one high dollar and a cheaper all metal "homebuilder" model. Any others worth considering? >> I would go with the Andair model for injected applications. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
<> Can you imagine that ROLEX being able to save your life? Airplanes that are built properly, and still have their wings attached have a certain glide ratio. Rolex watches, will drop like a rock. If you never plan on getting your airplane off the ground, (or selling it to someone who intends to) crummy rivets don't matter. If you intend to fly it, (or someone elde does) then they do. ________________________________________________________________________________ from that design, you deviate from safety. How much is your life worth to you? Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Date: Jan 21, 1998
>< watches! Can you imagine the results of a burst from a 3X gun on a > Rolex?? :) >> > >Can you imagine that ROLEX being able to save your life? > >Airplanes that are built properly, and still have their wings attached have a >certain glide ratio. Rolex watches, will drop like a rock. > >If you never plan on getting your airplane off the ground, (or selling it to >someone who intends to) crummy rivets don't matter. If you intend to fly it, >(or someone elde does) then they do. > >From start to finish, your airplane is designed to be safe. If you deviate >from that design, you deviate from safety. How much is your life worth to you? > >Regards > >Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM GOOD GRIEF!! RELAXXXX!!! Evidently a touch of humor isn't welcomed here? I'm merely trying to aleviate a new RV builder's concerns about the riveting learning curve...and ALL my rivets pass the shop head gauge checks for height and width. NUFF SAID. Brian Denk -8 wings (and wondering if it's worth the heartburn to post here anymore) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: GAscolator
> >I was wondering if anyone could advise me as to which gascolator models >available can handle the high pressure (25 psi) with an injected engine set >up. ACS sells two models-one high dollar and a cheaper all metal "homebuilder" >model. Any others worth considering? I am going to use a gascolator for sure, >although I know many people don't. I would appreciate some advise from someone >who is familiar with these models. Thanks. Mark G. #80087, waiting for finish >kit You may use the cheaper gascolator model if you mount it ahead of the high pressure boost pump. Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: James Sleigh <jsleigh(at)pcnet.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: What was that sound??
I wonder if that 700+hp Turbine Glasair III will be ready by SnF. Talk about excess power! That'll give ol' Pushy a run for the money. And to keep this on topic, have there been any plans revisions in the last two years? I've been outta the loop and am ready to get going. Also, what is the best (tactfull?) way to order the parts from Vans without being too obvious that you're building a Rocket? I'll be ordering the wing kit in the next few weeks. James Sleigh On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Mlfred wrote: > Listers: > > I just got off the phone with Bruce Bohannon. Guess what? We are all invited > to participate in the bracket races (time to climb). The winner will have to > make 5 runs to 1000 meters. All participants will make two runs (one > qualifying, and one race). > > Sounds like a whole bunch of fun. I'll keep posting more info as I get it, or > you can call Bruce at 281-992-8989. > > Check six! > Mark > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Re: VS Offset
Dave Ross up near Cleveland made a trim tab for his rudder out of a real stout foam that he painted and glued it to the side of his rudder. This way the trim tab didn't stick off the back of the rudder and the part was less noticeable. It was a real clean fix. AL >I would recommend that you mount it straight and adjust with a trim wedge >later if necessary. My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong >with a small trim tab on the rudder. >I think I would be more embarrassed to have done all the work to move the >stab from center, and then have a trim tab for left rudder to correct the >correction that wasn't needed! >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. >These opinions and ideas are my own >and do not necessarily reflect the opinions >of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Crummy Rivets
Date: Jan 21, 1998
I got my kit in November and had never used a rivet gun, bucking bar or hand squeezer before. I used the rubber edge flush set one time and drilled that rivet out and never used it again. I think the keys to setting the rivets from my very limited experience is good air setting on the compressor. (I use 35 psi) and having a bucker available. My rivets are much better when I can just concentrate on one side or the other. I also am dutiful about checking the rivet length. With some work you will get to where you can set the rivet amazingly within limits in one smooth motion rather than a whole bunch of little hits. -----Original Message----- From: CBrowne714 [SMTP:CBrowne714(at)aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 9:24 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Crummy Rivets Having just started, I spent Saturday afternoon and the last few evenings practicing riveting 426 and 470 -4 and -3 rivets. I quickly reached the conclusion that, doubtless, everyone else has. A few lousy rivets are inevitable and drilling them out is tricky, at best. I have been advised by my "riveting instructor" from my EAA chapter who restores aircraft for a local museum that it is best to leave rivets alone unless they are really egregious. I am inclined to agree, but I have only driven 300 hundred or so. Given that there are about 13,000 these to do, I would like to set reasonable standard without being to anal - its an airplane, not a watch. One other observation. I thought my biggest problem would be "smileys" and I thought a rubber guard was a must. My instructor encouraged me to try the "bare" flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the dimpled skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting and that controlling the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Is this picture correct or am I kidding myself? Chris Browne RV-6 Emp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: For Sale: RV6/6A Engine Cowl
Date: Jan 21, 1998
That's the difference in the exchange cost no the per unit cost. Gary K. Fesenbek Soon to be Type S Cowl owner -----Original Message----- From: Paul Besing [SMTP:rv8er(at)doitnow.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 9:58 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: For Sale: RV6/6A Engine Cowl I thought the Type S cowl from vans was $315???? > > >Anybody want to save some money? I have an untouched RV-6/6A engine >cowl for sale, $400 plus shipping. If you live within two hours of the >bay area in California I'll deliver it in exchange for a frosty Diet >Coke. I'll even sing to it during the trip. > >Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) >RV-6AQME working on the sliding canopy... > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Gary kozinski <KOZINSKI(at)symbol.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Chris, glad to hear your doing some practicing before the real thing. I never operated and/or bucked a rivit before I started my -6 (which was 11 years ago but I'm almost there). A few tips... Be sure all layers of the material to be rivited are in contact with each other. If there night tightly together, the rivit may expand between layers. Yes, a semi bad rivit may still be better than a pooly removed rivit with an enlarged hole. I found that dippling gave a much better fit than counter sinking. Sometimes you may take a turn or two with the counter sink hand took to take off any edges and give the rivit a better fit. I've always used the rubber edge flush set with excellent results. I use a 2X gun from US Tool. Working in a team seems to be better than alone...my day drives and I buck. Invest in a pnumatic squeezer for perfect results on edge rivits. My hand squeezer never gave me good results. Good luck and monitor the RV List for continous tips. Gary on Long Island RV-6 20038 finishing >>> CBrowne714 01/20 9:23 PM >>> Having just started, I spent Saturday afternoon and the last few evenings practicing riveting 426 and 470 -4 and -3 rivets. I quickly reached the conclusion that, doubtless, everyone else has. A few lousy rivets are inevitable and drilling them out is tricky, at best. I have been advised by my "riveting instructor" from my EAA chapter who restores aircraft for a local museum that it is best to leave rivets alone unless they are really egregious. I am inclined to agree, but I have only driven 300 hundred or so. Given that there are about 13,000 these to do, I would like to set reasonable standard without being to anal - its an airplane, not a watch. One other observation. I thought my biggest problem would be smileys and I thought a rubber guard was a must. My instructor encouraged me to try the bare flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the dimpled skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting and that controlling the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Is this picture correct or am I kidding myself? Chris Browne RV-6 Emp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
>My instructor encouraged me to try the >"bare" flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the dimpled >skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting >Chris Browne Chris, I agree that the straight, flush set seems to set the rivets a bit better. However, you do have to be carefull because if your set is not perpendicular to the surface, your set can wander off the rivet. This is one reason for gradually increasing trigger pressure on the gun. It allows you to detect any wandering tendency and correct before full gun force is applied. I went a long time on my first project with a rubber guard, straight flush set. I did OK until the bottom of an outboard, L.E. wing skin and put a smiley on it. I then bought the swivel flush set and used it for the rest of the kit. I think the swivel, flush set distributes it's pressure over a larger surface area than the smaller, straight set. I think it's a good idea to have both types of sets. When working by yourself in an awkward situation, the swivel would probably be my choice. If you have someone to help, I'd use the straight, flush set. I just finished helping a 6A builder do his wings. We back riveted the one piece top skin and used the non-rubber guard, straight flush set on the bottom skins. He ran the gun and I ran the bar. It worked out very well and we did the bottom skins in just over 5 hours per wing. Heck, by myself, it took me 5 hours to do the bottom of the root ribs on my first set of wings. I need to convince my wife that she should help me on my second project. Having two people work on the airplane really speeds things along. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hr. Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOMRV4 <TOMRV4(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
In a message dated 1/20/98 9:39:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, ammeterj(at)seanet.com writes: <> I have a suggestion for those that are having trouble using the swivel set with the rubber guard. When I first got mine, I was also having a tough time setting rivets, and found after close examination that the rubber guard, as it comes from the factory, sits too far away from the metal set, making it difficult to hold enough pressure to compress the rubber before the set contacts the rivet. I "sanded" down the rubber guard, using a belt sander, until it was within .032 or so away from the set. (Be very gentle with this operation, as the rubber guard needs to be sanded very evenly, to assure proper contact with the skin.) This allows you to use only moderate pressure to keep the set in contact with the rivet, and gives the protection of the rubber guard. One other thing I found that helps, is to keep the lip of the rubber guard that is in contact with the skin "roughened" up with fine sandpaper. Over time, this lip can become very smooth, and tend to slide around on the skin, instead of gripping it. Tom Flying RV-4 N153TK Building wings, RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douglas G. Murray" <dgmurray(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
W B Ward wrote: > > > > < watches! Can you imagine the results of a burst from a 3X gun on a > Rolex?? :) >> > > Can you imagine that ROLEX being able to save your life? > > A standard proceedure turn on instruments sure could use that Rolex :-) > Airplanes that are built properly, and still have their wings attached have a > certain glide ratio. Rolex watches, will drop like a rock. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douglas G. Murray" <dgmurray(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: What was that sound??
James Sleigh wrote: > > Also, what is the best (tactfull?) way to order the parts from Vans > without being too obvious that you're building a Rocket? I'll be > ordering the wing kit in the next few weeks. > > James Sleigh >James: It would seem to me that everyone now knows your intentions since the folks at Van's read this list too. If you really want a Rocket then the Manufacturer for the Rocket should be willing to supply you with the complete kit. Doug RV-6 Canopy tip-up hinges in place ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: For Sale: RV6/6A Engine Cowl
<> Dream on! There's a $315 upcharge over the standard polyester/glass cowling. Read the fine print in the Oct '97 RVator. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Loren D. Jones" <Loren(at)LorenJones.com>
Subject: Re: GAscolator
Date: Jan 21, 1998
> You might want to check the Anadair Gascolator. (not sure if thats the >correct spelling) They make a beautifully machined unit its a little pricey >but very nice and will handle the higher pressures. I believe Chief Aircraft, >and Spruce carry them, Vans may carry them. Avery has them, too. There is a picture of it on their web site (www.averytools.com) on the New Items page. Loren (Not affiliated with Avery's) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russell Duffy" <rad(at)pen.net>
Subject: Friend looking for complete RV-6A
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Hi all, Anybody know of any RV-6A's for sale? I've got a friend in North Carolina that's in the market for a plane. Please reply off-list. Russell Duffy SlingShot SS-003, N8754K (17.8 hrs) RV-8, sn-80587 Empenage Navarre, FL rad(at)pen.net http://www.pen.net/~rad/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: paulr(at)colorado.cirrus.com (Paul Romano)
Subject: Re: VS-Wiring
Thanks, Frank! Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Jonh J Banks <tinmanjj(at)ptd.net>
Subject: ribbets
alittle advice for new riveters---dont fiddle around get it over with in a hurry the more you tap on a rivet, the harder it gets. don"t use old rivets--- keep oil away from everything ,including your fingers ,and especially the squezzer dies, use good dimple dies for all 426 rivets dimple everything you can up to .040 use a sharp drill to drill out your mistakes turn the chuck by hand a couple of turns to make sure you are centered on the rivet head before pulling the trigger on your air drill, drill only deep enough to pry the head off with a drift punch. happy ribbeting tinmanjj(at)ptd.net------- the old timer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)Juno.com
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Date: Jan 21, 1998
===We back riveted the one piece top skin=== bob: I am putting the upper skin on last of the LH wing because of the rear spar. Allows me to squeeze the rear spar rivet row. With your top skin back rivetted on, How do you appoarch the lower skin? Just roll it down like I am doing the upper. Don Jordan~6A wings~Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
CBrowne714(at)aol.com wrote: > Having just started, I spent Saturday afternoon and the last few evenings > practicing riveting 426 and 470 -4 and -3 rivets. I quickly reached the > conclusion that, doubtless, everyone else has. A few lousy rivets are > inevitable and drilling them out is tricky, at best. Believe me, you *will* get better at drilling them out. I consider myself fortunate that, when I was first learning to rivet 2 years ago, I was shown how to drill out bad rivets. Technique is: 1. Drill a hole into the factory head (*not* shank) of the rivet. Use a drill size smaller than the rivet's size i.e. for a -4 rivet, drill this hole with a #40 or so bit. There's a dimple in the middle of the rivet head to use as a starting point. 2. Now drill this hole out to the rivet's size (eg #30 bit for -4 rivets), again being careful not to go too deep. If your drilling is accurate and you go slightly too deep, the head will come right off -- that's fine. However, if your drilling is inaccurate and you go too deep, you'll damage the hole. 3. If the head didn't come off, put the back end of the same size drill bit (keep a spare one handy) into the hole and press sideways. The rivet head should snap off. This is more difficult with flush rivets than universals. 4. Drill down through the shank using the smaller bit, again being careful to keep it centred. This hole is important because it relieves the grip between rivet and hole. 5. Grasp the shop head tightly with a pair of long-nose pliers and twist and pull. 6. Stop and think *why* did this rivets are all going bad. Is it something with your technique? Perhaps due to the awkward position/angle of the rivet? Or maybe it was just one of those things? 7. I've found that, with care, this should allow you to put another rivet the same size and length in the hole. However, if you need to drill out a second rivet from the same hole, the hole will almost certainly be enlarged. 8. If the hole is enlarged just a little, take a slightly longer but same diameter rivet, and squeeze it down a bit in your handsqueezer. Not in the workpiece, just loose in the squeezer. If it bends, throw it away and do another. When it's fattened up to the right diameter for the hole, and the correct length, insert it in the hole and drive as usual. 9. If you screw up driving a fattened-up rivet, stop and take a break. Maybe stop rivetting and do something else for the rest of this session. It's probably late at night and you're maybe tired. You're probably also feeling frustrated, stressed out, and have lost some confidence. 10. Next morning, consider your options. Have another look at that rivet. Consider whether it *really* needs to be drilled out. If it does, drill it out again as per steps 1-6, then drill the hole out to the next size up rivet. 11. Stop and think *why* these rivets are all going bad. It it something with your technique? Perhaps due to the awkward position/angle of the rivet? By now, there *is* SOME reason why you can't drive that rivet. Get someone to help, or to watch your technique. Correct that problem. Then drive the rivet and move on. > my "riveting instructor" from my EAA chapter who restores > aircraft for a local museum that it is best to leave rivets > alone unless they are really egregious. > I am inclined to agree Me too. I had an A&P assist with my wing spar rivets. He works on warbirds and topdressers, and has rebuilt a C172. He said more or less the same as your instructor -- removing rivets (especially the long -6 wing rivets) will damage the hole a little and weaken it. Eventually you get to the point where drilling it out *again* weakens it more than leaving it there. He also said that 1 in 10 is allowed to be below spec (dunno quite what that means) and that he'd *never* seen a rivet let go due to being overdriven. > there are about 13,000 these to do, I would like to set reasonable standard > without being to anal - its an airplane, not a watch. Agreed. Anal may result in perfect looking rivets with the underlying spar weakened by all the hammering from the gun, drilling and twisting. Always remember what the goal is -- a flying airplane in a reasonable amount of time and money -- not a perfect-looking museum piece. Incidentally, I've read some of the comments in this thread about having a partner to assist with bucking. I found the opposite... it's usually (depending on the situation) easier for me to drive and buck myself than to work with someone else. I know when I'm putting pressure on the gun and bar, when I'm about to drive the rivet, etc. Working with someone else means good, clear communication is needed between you and your assistant. > controlling the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Definitely true. I think that good bucking is more important than good driving. Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Angiulo <mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Aileron alignment
Date: Jan 21, 1998
I have 2 questions for the list at large: 1. How do I align these darned ailerons? I've tried using the femail airfoil templates but they don't seem to be very accurate. Even with them clamped on I don't think I have very repeatable dimensions. I tried drilling the steel aileron brackets to the aileron (the hinge brackets are pre-drilled on the RV8) and am looking at what might be a well aligned aileron or might be a poorly aligned aileron. How the hell am I supposed to tell??? 2. I was told by Van's that on the early RV 8 kits the lower main wing skin interfered with the inner aileron hinge assembly (at the rear spar). The best answer I could get from them is "trim to fit." I was wondering if anyone could give me a hint as to how much distance there needs to be between the inboard face of the aileron hinge bracket and the beginning of the bottom wing skin. An inch? 1/2 an inch? There has to be some right measurment - I just don't know what! Maybe trim it to where the flap brace starts? Anyway thanks for the help! -Mike #80047 (recovering from grand RV-frusturation) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Todd Whelan <twhelan(at)f22l11.mar.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: ribbets
Jonh J Banks wrote: > > --- keep oil away from everything ,including your fingers ,and > especially the squezzer dies, How come? Todd Whelan RV-8 empennage #80554 Parts inventoried; getting shop together ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Eric Barnes <erbarnes(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Small airbrush - $5 Harbor Freight
Hi all, Got the Harbor Freight catalog a couple days/weeks ago, but was in the transition to a new job. In any case, they have a small airbrush on sale for $4.99, with the adapter to attach to a 1/4" air hose another $1.99. It holds about 2 oz., and I've found this perfect for small parts and even small ribs. Saves a lot of paint over even a touch-up gun. Airbrush Item# 06131-9BSB Adapter Item# 01655-1BSB Call Harbor Freight at 1-800-423-2567 phone, 1-800-905-5220 fax. EB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Hi all, Quality in a manufactured (or built) product is a complex topic. "Quality" is a perception, not a "physical fact". Perfection is unobtainable so some level below that needs to be set. It is not set by Van, tho he does have guidelines for rivets and it is not set by those who utter foolish scoldings like "What is your life worth?" We builders must each decide what level of quality is satisfactory for us. I suspect that some builders get so "pumped" about making a perfect airplane that they soon give up. I know that some turn out airplanes that are scary and they are quite happy with them. It is good enough for them and that is the first and most important issue regarding quality. I can imagine three levels of quality right off (all need to meet existing airworthiness & safety standards) : 1 - Show winner - quality must exceed what is currently winning 2 - Flyer - needs to have reasonable appearance. 3 - Test mule - for engine testing etc. no appearance requirements Paint and a pound or two of filler will do wonders for appearance, right? Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Looking for an airport & sweating canopy halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Elevator travel
>A lot of builders have to trim the rear spar flange to get these ranges. I knew nothing about sheet metal work when I started and still don't know much but I bent, ok - bashed the flange. It *WILL* be stronger tho it may not matter. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Morrissey, John" <John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Aileron alignment
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Hi Michael, I just did one of mine last night so here's some recent knowledge. The important measurement is the one between either the center or the bottom of the aileron spar and the pivot point on the aileron bracket. It has to be the same at both ends of the aileron. Once you have achieved this your half way there. Now use the template to set the relationship between the wing and the aileron and fit the aileron to the inboard bracket. Adjust your aileron brackets to get a nice fit in the template. Check that the brackets are the same on both ends of the aileron again. Move the template to the outer end of the aileron and clamp the outer bracket to the wing. Now grab a cheap 24" plastic ruler and place it against the bottom of the inner end of the aileron and mark the position of the pivot point and a couple of other reference points like the trailing edge of the aileron and a couple of points on the wing. As the aileron is flat on the bottom and the wing is curved you will have to clamp a couple of bits of scrap across the ruler to contact the wing. Take this temporary template and compare the pivot point you marked with the outer bracket. Adjust as required and drill the outer bracket onto the wing. The whole process should take you about an hour. Drop me a line if you have any more questions John Morrissey -----Original Message----- From: Michael Angiulo [SMTP:mikeang(at)MICROSOFT.com] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:12 AM To: 'rv-list(at)matronics.com' Subject: RV-List: Aileron alignment I have 2 questions for the list at large: 1. How do I align these darned ailerons? I've tried using the femail airfoil templates but they don't seem to be very accurate. Even with them clamped on I don't think I have very repeatable dimensions. I tried drilling the steel aileron brackets to the aileron (the hinge brackets are pre-drilled on the RV8) and am looking at what might be a well aligned aileron or might be a poorly aligned aileron. How the hell am I supposed to tell??? 2. I was told by Van's that on the early RV 8 kits the lower main wing skin interfered with the inner aileron hinge assembly (at the rear spar). The best answer I could get from them is "trim to fit." I was wondering if anyone could give me a hint as to how much distance there needs to be between the inboard face of the aileron hinge bracket and the beginning of the bottom wing skin. An inch? 1/2 an inch? There has to be some right measurment - I just don't know what! Maybe trim it to where the flap brace starts? Anyway thanks for the help! -Mike #80047 (recovering from grand RV-frusturation) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Aileron alignment - will this fix it?
Hi, Aileron alignment is a typical problem with our plans and text docs. Building my quickbuild kit, I followed the instructions and made up the wing templates and fitted things up. I looked at the Orndorff video and felt that George was making a big deal out of something that seemed to be working out okay on mine. But what do I know? Then late evening came and I settled back to study and I read that what has to line up are the form holes in the ribs. Damn! All the work of making wing templates for nothing as all I have to do is line up holes. Next morning I check the holes with a straight edge and they are almost okay. A few adjustments and I drill the brackets to the ailerons. Then I look at the wing from the end and it dawns on me that what *REALLY* needs to line up are the outer surfaces - the skins! The air flowing over the wing-aileron is unaffected by the holes in the ribs or for that matter, how the template hangs. The aileron needs to fair with the wing, right? So, we have three construction criteria and a builder who really doesn't know much about what he is doing. My aileron is probably 1/8 th inch below the wing surface. So how do I recover from this error? This is what I think might work. I will slot the holes in the ailerons, as is done in many other machines that need to be adjusted in assembly. Once I have the ailerons fair with the wing I will tighten the bracket to aileron bolts. Then I will remove the ailerons and drill a #30 hole thru bracket and aileron and put in a rivet which will lock the two in the position already bolted. It seems to me **EXTREMELY* unlikely that there will be a load that would shear the rivet and if it did, the worst would happen is that the aileron would be more able to move slightly and slow me down. This airplane could never be profitably mass produced without adjustment capabilites like this or like George suggests. Hal Kempthorne RV-6AQ -- Looking for an airport & sweating canopy halk(at)sybase.com Santa Clara, CA. Debonair N6134V @ SJC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: "Robert G. Miller" <rgmiller(at)acadiacom.net>
Subject: Golf ball dimples as perormance enhancer?
You know some times when you try to do the right thing and you shoot yourself in the foot? Like when you tell your wife that she looks fantastic in that dress, it really makes her look thin and she scowls back "Are you saying I'm fat?" Been there; Done that. Well, I did it last week with a post concerning Tony Occhipini's dimple tape. The purpose of my message was to inform the list that the two RV's with the tape will be at Sun 'N Fun and to offer the names and telephone numbers of their owners to anyone interested. Instead of just stating that, I qualified it with the statement that I did not notice any difference. My purpose here was not to imply that I thought the dimple tape did not work, but rather to state up front that I was neither endorsing or refuting the merits of the tape because I lacked sufficient personal knowledge to form an opinion and was suggesting that anyone interested contact the owners of the test planes. To the extent that I created any confusion by my poor choice of words, I apologize. I'm sorry, Honey, and, yes it will be all right if your sister and her kids visit for the next two weeks. Robert Miller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: Cameron Covert <ccovert(at)westga.edu>
Subject: fuel tanks
Has anyone out there found a solution to stopping the seeping of fuel tanks that have pro seal and white sloshing compound? I sent mine to a guy called Carl Fish in Vancouver for a "clean out" which he said would take 2 to 3 months. He has had my tanks for 4 months now and won't answer my repeated phone calls to find out what is happening. Could anyone who lives in the vicinity mind driving to his residence and ask him what" up for me? If so I sould certainly appreciate it, just let me know and i'll furnish his address and phone number (which he never calls back) Thanks, Cameron Covert Carrollton, Georgia 770-834-7345 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Frank van der Hulst wrote: > > > CBrowne714(at)aol.com wrote: > > Having just started, I spent Saturday afternoon and the last few evenings > > practicing riveting 426 and 470 -4 and -3 rivets. I quickly reached the > > conclusion that, doubtless, everyone else has. A few lousy rivets are > > inevitable and drilling them out is tricky, at best. > Technique is: > > 1. Drill a hole into the factory head (*not* shank) of the rivet. Use > a drill size smaller than the rivet's size i.e. for a -4 rivet, drill > this hole with a #40 or so bit. There's a dimple in the middle of the > rivet head to use as a starting point. Frank; At this point, I was taught to pop off the head with a 3/32 inch pin punch. Put the hardened end into the hole you just drilled and tilt slightly and the head will pop off once you have learned to drill the proper depth. You are a lot less likely to damage the hole. John N721JK Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marty Emrath" <emrath(at)msn.com>
Subject: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt and 6" Sander" for completion of the stiffeners in the control surfaces of the Empannage. Several local builders have acquired this tool from Delta (Home Depo) and Craftsman, who have used them with much success. The ElChepo (about 1/2 cost of others) Central Machinery may not hold up well. Has anyone tried one of these or a Central Machinery Bench Top Drill Press that can address the quality issue? RV6 Horizontal Stabilizer in Jig - now if I could just learn to rivet. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod <WoodardRod(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: FROM ROD--Small airbrush - $5 Harbor Freight
> Airbrush Item# 06131-9BSB > Adapter Item# 01655-1BSB > > Call Harbor Freight at 1-800-423-2567 phone, 1-800-905-5220 fax. > > EB Thanks Eric, I just ordered the paint gun & adapter. Man, do they stick it to you for postage and handling. I had to check the number I dialed to make sure I wasn't talking to Van's! Rod P.S. I received word today that I've finally sold my Lexus. This will reduce my monthly outlay by about $500... more building money! I feel a little silly driving around in a Geo, but it gets me from point A to B! P.P.S. I think I found a Champ that a partner and I will buy. It's in Pierre, SD. If it works out, you'll have to fly to Denver and we'll fly the Champ to Burlington for the RV fly-in weekend! It'll probably be slower than driving, but much more fun than 300 miles in a Geo Tracker! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Craig Nelson <cgn(at)pond.net>
Subject: Back riveting wing skins
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Hi Listers, Could someone briefly explain how to back rivet wing skins. I have the tools and have back riveted control surfaces. I'm wondering how this is done in a fixture. Craig Nelson RV-6 serial # 25101 cgn(at)pond.net Eugene, OR left wing finished, riveting right wing skins Going to order a fuselage kit soon! __I__ ______O______ o/ \o ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: VS Offset
<19980109.225334.7606.3.SMCDANIELS(at)juno.com>
From: rvpilot(at)Juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Scott, I agree. Mount the VS straight and add trim tab to put the the ball in the middle. The little wedge type tab on the trailing edge of the rudder is very unobtrusive and very effective. I start with a strip of wooden wedge 1" wide and about 3/16" thick at the T.E. mabey 4" long. Tape it on with Duct tape and go flying. Keep trimming untill the airplane flys straight at normal cruising speed, then paint it and stick it on permantly with double sticky tape. It can be removed if necessary by soaking with naptha. BTW, I have found that the tab is much more effective if mounted higher up on the rudder ,out of the influence of the fuselage. Regards, Bill RV4 N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Re: For Sale: RV6/6A Engine Cowl
From: gretz-aero(at)Juno.com (Warren Gretz)
Try alot more $$!! You will pay $450 for the standard cowl from Van's in the finish kit. To get the new S cowl ADD $350 to the $450 for a total of $800 plus shipping!! writes: > >I thought the Type S cowl from vans was $315???? > > > >> >> >>Anybody want to save some money? I have an untouched RV-6/6A engine >>cowl for sale, $400 plus shipping. If you live within two hours of >the >>bay area in California I'll deliver it in exchange for a frosty Diet >>Coke. I'll even sing to it during the trip. >> >>Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) >>RV-6AQME working on the sliding canopy... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: char room
I am in the chat room this Wednesday night 1/21/98 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowen.com>
Subject: Sun-N-Fun Ballast
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Anybody need some extra ballast in their plane (hopefully an RV) going to Sun-n-Fun? I'd gladly volunteer and share expenses. I'm near GSO, NC. Larry larry(at)bowen.com RV-8 Emp. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Devlin" <jdevlin(at)americus.net>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Marty, I've been using their bench top 1/3 HP drill press for about 4 years (including 14 months on an RV6A). The quality isn't terrific but can't beat the price. The motor will bog down and stall occassionally. I've replaced the on/off switch with a light switch because it broke about two months ago. This drill has been used to finish edges with the scotchbrite wheels, drill numerous #40 and #30 holes, cut out large holes up to 3 in with a fly cutter, and nibble irregular shaped holes with die grinder bits. If it burns out tomorrow, I will replace it with a quality free standing drill press and be satisfied that it was worth what I spent for it. Hope this helps. Best regards, John Finishing Fuselage ---------- > From: Marty Emrath <emrath(at)msn.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Builder's tools > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 9:03 PM > > > Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by > Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt > and 6" Sander" for completion of the stiffeners in the control surfaces of > the Empannage. Several local builders have acquired this tool from Delta > (Home Depo) and Craftsman, who have used them with much success. The > ElChepo (about 1/2 cost of others) Central Machinery may not hold up well. > Has anyone tried one of these or a Central Machinery Bench Top Drill Press > that can address the quality issue? > > RV6 Horizontal Stabilizer in Jig - now if I could just learn to rivet. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Primer (revisited ad nauseum)
Date: Jan 21, 1998
The January issue of the Tri-State Wing's newsletter has a brief discussion about primer. The article suggests Van actually suggests you don't need to prime anywhere near as much as most of us do. And the author echoes these sentiments. Does anyone know if Cessna is still not priming their interiors, or did they start doing so with the new models? Does anyone know if Van primed the inside of his airplanes? I'm almost to the point on my wings where I can't go much further without hitting the bucking bars. My ribs are all primed, but I haven't primed the insides of my skins or the aileron and flap spars. It's winter in Minnesota, which means I either find someone with an interior paint booth, wait until spring, or proceed without priming the skins. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533 <MAlexan533(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 21, 1998
Subject: Scat Tubing Question
I am retrofitting cabin heat to my RV-4, and in running the 2" Scat tubing to the heat muff from the selector, I can't seem to get the 2" scat tubing to fit over the outlets. It will fit if I cut the wire back inside and then slip the tubing over, but is this acceptable practice? Does the wire have to be over the aluminum tubing and under the hose clamp? It seems like in the GenAV planes I've been around, its about half one way and half the other, but I want to be sure. Any special tricks? Thanks. Von Alexander RV-4 N107RV (RV-8 #544) MAlexan533(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
jkitz(at)greenapple.com wrote: > > Technique is: > > > > 1. Drill a hole into the factory head (*not* shank) of the rivet. Use > > a drill size smaller than the rivet's size i.e. for a -4 rivet, drill > > this hole with a #40 or so bit. There's a dimple in the middle of the > > rivet head to use as a starting point. I forgot to add (someone mentioned in a later post)... turn the drill bit by hand a couple of times to get started exactly centred. > At this point, I was taught to pop off the head with a 3/32 inch pin > punch. Put the hardened end into the hole you just drilled and tilt > slightly and the head will pop off once you have learned to drill the > proper depth. You are a lot less likely to damage the hole. Whereas I'd said: "2. Now drill this hole out to the rivet's size ... 3. If the head didn't come off, put the back end of the same size drill bit..." Hell, I'm no expert. All I can say is that the technique I described works OK for me, and I've removed more rivets than I'm inclined to admit to! :-) John's idea sounds fine to me. Probably better treatment of the tools too. I do wonder about the sideways force you'd have to put on a -4 rivet that has only a 3/32" hole drilled into its head. Is it going to bend/smiley the skin around the rivet? I'd be inclined to drill out to #30, then use a 1/8" pin punch as he said. Any experts wanna comment? Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
>One other observation. I thought my biggest problem would be >smileys and I >thought a rubber guard was a must. My instructor encouraged me to try >the >bare flush set and I found the rivets were seated tighter into the >dimpled >skin than with either the rubber guard or back riveting and that >controlling >the bucking bar was far more crucial to a good rivet. Is this picture >correct >or am I kidding myself? > >Chris Browne >RV-6 Emp > > I am also one of the weenies that uses a swivel head rivet set, but I use it for reasons other than preventing smilies ) . Tim already mention the way to fix the performance of the set that I have done to them for other builders since I started using one about 7 years ago. But the reason I use it is that it produces a nicer skin finish than any other set that I have tried. Most flush sets that have no rubber edge are convexed slightly in shape. This will dish the skin surface (very slightly if you are good, much more noticeable if you are a novice). The swivel set is perfectly flat, and used in conjunction with a 2X gun set up to drive the rivet with about a 2 to 3 second driving time; I think it does as nice of a job as can be done (not much different than back riveting). Oh yea.... and it does help prevent those smiles that seem to happen once in a while; no matter how good you are. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
>Quality in a manufactured (or built) product is a complex topic. > >"Quality" is a perception, not a "physical fact". Perfection is >unobtainable so >some level below that needs to be set. It is not set by Van, tho he >does have >guidelines for rivets and it is not set by those who utter foolish >scoldings like >"What is your life worth?" We builders must each decide what level of >quality is >satisfactory for us. > >I suspect that some builders get so "pumped" about making a perfect >airplane that >they soon give up. I know that some turn out airplanes that are scary >and they >are quite happy with them. It is good enough for them and that is the >first and >most important issue regarding quality. Hal, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I also feel that a lot of builders go overboard. At work we have a saying, "Just build the airplane". But... A person making there own judgement of quality without ever being educated on what is expectable and what is not could be a danger to them self and others. There is a range lets say for exceptable, airworthy work (look inside an older cessna or piper some time, it's not perfect either), but I have seen a lot of projects (and completed RV's) that In my opinion had at least portions of it that were borderline (what would I have found if I looked really close?). The bottom line is don't get carried away (like you said so that you don't get frustrated and quit). But, do get "Educated" about what level of quality is exceptable. This is something that is difficult to present to someone through an E-mail message. I suggest anyone that has any question in there mind at all, to get a visit from a couple of experienced builders. I suggest a couple of builders because not everyone has the same (exceptable) standards for quality. I once did a prebuy inspection of an RV-6 project being sold by a widow of a man who had been an EAA technical counselor. Every single rivet in the airplane (the major airframe construction was completed) had only been driven about 50% of what they should have been. It may be flying today with it never corrected. Is it safe? Maybe, no one has ever purposely built one that way and tested the structure to see. So, If you are not sure, ask some one. And if you are confident that its ok, but you have never been around anyone else building an RV or any other metal aircraft, ask a couple of people to look anyway. Then you can be confident in your confidence. Sorry I went so long... Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: George McNutt <GMcNutt(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Proseal
Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it in the freezer? George McNutt - 6A Wings Langley B.C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Primer (revisited ad nauseum)
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
>The January issue of the Tri-State Wing's newsletter has a brief >discussion >about primer. The article suggests Van actually suggests you don't >need >to prime anywhere near as much as most of us do. And the author >echoes these >sentiments. > >Does anyone know if Cessna is still not priming their interiors, or >did they >start doing so with the new models? > >From what I understand they have adopted priming the interior surfaces on the new production airplanes. >Does anyone know if Van primed the inside of his airplanes? > Yes the interiors are primed with Sher. Williams P60G This is the same product that is also used on the quick build airframes. No, it is not necessary on any parts made with alclad material (which is the majority of the parts orig. made from sheet stock including ribs and bulkheads). We prime at Van's because of our close proximity to the coast, and because of what other builders would say if we didn't :) Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VS Offset
<19980121.213126.11406.0.rvpilot(at)juno.com>
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> >Scott, I agree. Mount the VS straight and add trim tab to put the >the ball in the middle. The little wedge type tab on the trailing >edge of the rudder is very unobtrusive and very effective. I start >with a strip of wooden wedge 1" wide and about 3/16" thick at the T.E. >mabey 4" long. Tape it on with Duct tape and go flying. Keep trimming >untill the airplane flys straight at normal cruising speed, then paint >it and stick it on permantly with double sticky tape. It can be >removed if necessary by soaking with naptha. BTW, I have found that >the tab is much more >effective if mounted higher up on the rudder ,out of the influence of >the >fuselage. This is exactly how we do it. One thing to remember though is don't commit to a final trim setting until the airplane is in its "exact" final condition (all fairings, smoothing and finishing of fiberglass parts, all drag cleanups completed, etc.) The trim adjustment will be for only one cruise speed so if you want perfect trim for your best speed ( or a particular speed that you choose), then don't commit to anything perminent until then. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97 <Rvator97(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
Last Sunday I described problems encountered with the first run of my rebuilt engine, (no oil pressure after 20 seconds). Couldn't understand how this could happen. Lots of ideas from listers and others ; need to prime system, didn't run long enough, oil pump malfunction, etc. Well , I called the co. that built the engine and was told that indeed 20 seconds was not long enough; "go ahead and fire it up again, let it run 30 more seconds, and you'll get oil pressure, NO PROBLEM! After thinking about it all day I just couldn't bring myself to start the motor again without further investigation. Since I previosly had to install a new oil sump, I thought that maybe I forgot something, so I decided to drain the oil and remove the oil screen and take a look inside. I was shocked to find that the oil screen was "bone" dry! Not one drop of oil had even made it to the screen. Again I called the builder and described the situation. After pause and a couple of "uh ohs" he realized that he had sent me a sump that had a "plug" installed in the rear of the oil screen housing. Something to do with inverted systems or something. Anyway to make a long story short, I removed the oil sump tonight and sure enough, at the back of the housing is a plug! There is no way oil can go anywhere. This requires a special tool to remove,(they are sending it out to me ups). What a nightmare this has been! With the entire motor packed with grease, I am fairly confident that no damage was done during the 20 seconds it ran. What is scary is that if I had followed the builders advice and ignored the little voice inside me, I very well might have ruined a fresh engine. This is surely a one in a million mistake, but thought other builders might appreciate my diffuculties and possibly learn something. Should be ready to try again on Sunday! Walt RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod <WoodardRod(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Woops Posting
Hello listers... I recently posted a message that was supposed to go to Eric Barnes personally. I inadvertently forgot to delete the rv-list address and insert Eric's personal address. Sorry for wasting -list and archive space. Egg on my face for disclosing a little personal information. I guess we're all family, though! :-) Best to all, Rod Woodard RV-8, #80033 Loveland, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: "Anderson Ed" <anderson_ed(at)bah.com>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Marty, I purchased a band-saw, two different types of belt sanding machines, all my pneumatic tools other than rivet gun from there as well as numerous other smaller items. The only product I was ever disappointed with was a $16 metal punch (like the Whitney which cost $50 back in 1962). I have heavily used the tools for over 5 years without any problem, I consider them best value for the buck on the market. You can get better for sure and if you want the best, shop elsewhere. But, they are solid - no plastic parts, work just fine, and are cheap. Ed Marty Emrath wrote: > > Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by > Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt > and 6" Sander" for completion of the stiffeners in the control surfaces of > the Empannage. Several local builders have acquired this tool from Delta > (Home Depo) and Craftsman, who have used them with much success. The > ElChepo (about 1/2 cost of others) Central Machinery may not hold up well. > Has anyone tried one of these or a Central Machinery Bench Top Drill Press > that can address the quality issue? > > RV6 Horizontal Stabilizer in Jig - now if I could just learn to rivet. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Idle Speed
Listers What RPM should an O320 with a landoll harmonic balancer and wood prop idle at? If the RPM get below 730 on my -4 it starts to shake, below 680 it shakes much worse. Is this normal? I was told by a A/P that one RV-4 here in tallahassee idle's at 900 RPM's-that seems way to high, another builder here said his idles at 600 RPM's with no problem. Both of these planes have wood props and no balancer. I come to the great list for guidance. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
Just curious. If you had run it longer, per their instructions, and it "burned up", would they have replaced it? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Isler" <jlisler(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Marty Emrath wrote: > Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by > Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt > and 6" Sander" for completion of the stiffeners in the control surfaces of > the Empannage. Several local builders have acquired this tool from Delta > (Home Depo) and Craftsman, who have used them with much success. The > ElChepo (about 1/2 cost of others) Central Machinery may not hold up well. > Has anyone tried one of these or a Central Machinery Bench Top Drill Press > that can address the quality issue? > ---------- My experience with the "Central Machinery" belt sander from Harbour Freight was not a good one for several reasons. If you look thru their sales papers you will see at least 2 different 4" x 36" belt sanders advertised, a cheap one and a moderately priced one. I ordered the higher priced one ($20.00 more) figuring the quality might be a little better than the cheaper one. When I received the unit I noticed that the stock number did not match what I had ordered. The number I received was for the cheap sander but the price I was charged was for the more expensive one. Harbour Freight had made a substitution because they said they did not have the better sander in stock and was never going to have them again (they still advertise the better one 3 years later). They also had no intention of giving me a $20.00 refund until I forced the issue. They then gave me credit on my credit card. The sander was not taken out of the box for about 5 weeks (note: 30 day warranty) and when placed in service it ran about a dozen times before the motor burned up. These units have a cheap, funky magnetic starter. The one on mine stuck and caused the motor to release all of the smoke contained inside. Note: All electrical components contain smoke waiting to be released. Of course the warranty was up and a replacement motor of better heritage cost as much as the whole sander. I now own a Delta (good!). The moral to the story is you get what you pay for. If you buy the el-cheapo don't expect much. If you buy from Harbour Freight stay with the higher end stuff. I own a floor model drill press and metal band saw from Harbour and they are both OK. It's all made in Taiwan, some just made in a better part of Taiwan. Jerry Isler RV4 # 1070 Donalsonville, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only
happen to me!) > >Just curious. If you had run it longer, per their instructions, >and it "burned up", would they have replaced it> I'm going to speculate that yes they would give you a new engine with the caviat that you taped your phone conversation after you informed them you were doing so and and warned them that you would seek a replacement if it burned up and etc....ad nauseum . THEN you would have to hire someone like our own Mr. Woodard and probably pay him more than the engine was worth to get Lyc. to pay up :-) Aint America great? Al (All in fun, Rod I know your one of the good guys!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
>I do wonder about the sideways force you'd have to put on a -4 rivet >that has only a 3/32" hole drilled into its head. Is it going to >bend/smiley the skin around the rivet? I'd be inclined to drill out >to #30, then use a 1/8" pin punch as he said. Any experts wanna >comment? >Frank. As an A&P and homebuilder I've had to drill out at least my fair share of rivets (both bad ones and good ones that had to come off for repairs) and I find that one can easily pop the heads off any size rivet if it has been drilled through the factory head with the next smaller size drill bit. (-4 = #40, -5 = #30, etc.) I use a small automatic centerpunch from Snap-On to punch the head to get a good center before drilling. After drilling through the head with the small bit I often use an old dull drill bit shank (exact same diameter as the hole!) to lever off the head. There always seem to be plenty of dull drill bits available. If I have drilled correctly, the head nearly falls off. If it doesn't then drill a bit deeper and try again. For the real tough ones I use a *VERY* sharp chisel laid flat with the skin and tapped with a small mallet. I have a hammer that is my "rivet mallet" and it is a plastic faced "dead blow" (shot filled) hammer that weighs less than 8 oz. This procedure has served me well over several thousand rivets removed in my career as A&P and on the occasional one at home (I'm not too proud to admit that I've goofed on a few rivets). In addition to squishing a new rivet to make it swell to fit the hole, I use NAS 1097 "cheater rivets" which have the shank of the next size rivet with the smaller head of the old size. (-3 head with -4 shank) These are extremely handy to have around when repairing factory work. All the new rivets look just like the factory ones, even though the holes are oversize!! I'd recommend them to anyone who wants to build a really nice homebuilt. Only you will ever know that you boogered up a rivet and drilled it out. Your friends and fellow chapter members will be awe struck at the rows of "perfect" rivets. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Denis Walsh <dwalsh(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal
George McNutt wrote: > > > Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it in > the freezer? > No I don't know. however I have had the honor to redo a wing tank which didn't seal properly, so I can offer the advice to throw it away and wait until you are mentally and phisically prepared to do the whole task, then order a fresh batch and go for it. Pro seal ages in such subtle ways it is very tough to tell when it is getting to the point where you don't want to use it. Tank sealing is something you will want to do once only, and not be worrying and wondering about. There are some great threads on this in the archives, but what I remember is if it takes it more than a day or two to set up to non tacky then it is aged out. D Walsh ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Idle Speed
<< What RPM should an O320 with a landoll harmonic balancer and wood prop idle at? >> Lycoming claims that the idle for my O-360-A1A should be 850 rpm, so my guess is that the O-320 should be similar, right? -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WstcttPrss <WstcttPrss(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Small airbrush - $5 Harbor Freight
I've been using the Harbor freight air-brush for quite a while. You can save the cost of the airbrush in Primer each time you use it... almost no overspray... but buy a few. The plug up fairly easily. Jeff Carpenter RV-6 wstcttprss(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WstcttPrss <WstcttPrss(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
I checked out the Central machinery drill press and found too much play in the chuck/drive... and wound up buying the Delta from, of all places, Harbor Freight. I also bought the Delta Belt sander. For what it is worth, I have found almost no use for the belt sander. Anything that I might have worked on the belt sander seems to work better on a scotch-brite wheel mounted in the drill press (see Avery part #'s 3753, 5132 and the 934 mandrel). Jeff Carpenter RV-6 wstcttprss(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Kinner engines
From: lm4(at)Juno.com (Larry Mac Donald)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Listers, My Club ( Chapt. 44 ) is building a Chummy as a museum piece. We need a Kinner K-5 or K-2 ( non-running ) for the bird. Does anyone know where we could get this beast ? We would thank you for any ideas. Thanks in advance. Larry Mac Donald lm4(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb <Kerrjb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions.
Does anyone know how to contact them? I have access to the internal jig, but do not have instructions. Does anyone have a set they could get to me or a phone number to reach the company? I tried the number attached to the jig, but it is no longer in service. TIA, Bernie Kerr RV6A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed
Craig, my understanding the the balancer is that it is silicone filled and needs a couple of hours to balance itself, Do you have the necessary time on it? -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> Last Sunday I described problems encountered with the first run of my rebuilt > engine, (no oil pressure after 20 seconds). I'd be really worried about this engine--but I have zero experience with Lycomings. Can someone with some relevant Lycoming experience comment on the likely condition of the bearings in this engine? I know from first-hand experience that a race car engine will eat its bearings in a lot less than 20 seconds, at full load, with no oil pressure. Whenever I rebuild engines for race cars or road cars, I always crank the engine (plugs-out) until it shows some oil pressure before I try to start it. (I also do this after all oil changes.) Wouldn't this also be a good idea with a Lycoming? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC [-6 tail] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Free! Experienced Wing Jig
Date: Jan 22, 1998
I am just about done with the wings and am looking for a good home for my Wing Jig. It is 4 by 4 construction with guy wires for stabilization. I should be done with it in a week or so. I am near Roanoke, VA for any takers. Please respond off list. Gary RV6AQ Roanoke, VA -----Original Message----- From: Kerrjb [SMTP:Kerrjb(at)aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 12:14 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions. Does anyone know how to contact them? I have access to the internal jig, but do not have instructions. Does anyone have a set they could get to me or a phone number to reach the company? I tried the number attached to the jig, but it is no longer in service. TIA, Bernie Kerr RV6A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Akzo primer
>WstcttPrss wrote: years... it was reccomende to me by Jerry Scott. My only problem is clean-up. I've not been >able to find anything that can cut it. Acetone works... sort of... but I plug the nozzle on my >un or air-brush in pretty short order just the same. Any > suggestions? > Jeff Carpenter RV-6 Altadena, CA wstcttprss(at)aol.com Jeff, you've already received a response suggesting MEK. That works, & is recommended by Pratt-Lambert data sheets as a substitute for their Pratt-Lambert #110-566 or -588 or -701 thinners, which thin and cut/clean the epoxy zinc chromate primer I'm using on the interior. Cost me $24.50/gallon plus shipping. It even cuts old dried/cured epoxy primer. MEK seems to be harder to find (some times, some places). The main headquarters number for Pratt-Lambert products is the Sherwin Williams HQ in Wichita, Kansas. Call 1-800-325-2661 for a supplier nearest to you. (Pratt-Lambert is now owned by Sherwin Williams but still sold under Pratt-Lambert name & widely used in the commercial aircraft maintenance field). David Carter, RV-6 empennage skeleton, Nederland, TX (SE Tex Gulf Coast) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: "robert l. wadsworth" <110014.1237(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Rivet learning
Has anyone attended an Alexander Sportair sheet metal class? How well does it relate to a RV? Dumb question, sheet metal is sheet metal, right? Also, are there any comments on whether to use a 2X or 3X rivet gun? Soon to be builder Robert ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< 'd be really worried about this engine--but I have zero experience with Lycomings. Can someone with some relevant Lycoming experience comment on the likely condition of the bearings in this engine? I know from first-hand experience that a race car engine will eat its bearings in a lot less than 20 seconds, at full load, with no oil pressure. >> Ted, The bearings and journals should have been coated in a special grease durring assembly. Dry running the engine for 20 sec should have no ill affect on it. Since the problem was solved early (due to good comom sense) the engine should be fine. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Proseal
<< Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it in the freezer? >> George, You can gain quite a bit of life from proseal by freezing it. The trick is not to let it set up to long before you stick it in the freezer. We do this at work all the time when we are working on a long drawn out project that requires a little at a time. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBusick505 <RBusick505(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
<< Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by > Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt > and 6" Sander" for completion of the stiffeners in the control surfaces of > the Empannage. Several local builders have acquired this tool from Delta > (Home Depo) and Craftsman, who have used them with much success. The > ElChepo (about 1/2 cost of others) Central Machinery may not hold up well. > Has anyone tried one of these or a Central Machinery Bench Top Drill Press > that can address the quality issue? > >> I bought the band saw from them, it lasted about 30 minutes before the motor burned up and the bearings went out. I bought a sears band saw as a replacement and have had no prblems for over two years! I would not have a cental machinary tool if they paid me to use it. I will not fly in any RV, especially mine, if I knew that cental machinery tools were used to build it. We are building $30,000 to $70,000 dollar airplanes, the difference in cost between a good quality tool and a cheap one is totally insignificant! Bob Busick RV-6 Fremont CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
<< >Quality in a manufactured (or built) product is a complex topic. > >"Quality" is a perception, not a "physical fact". >> Okay, now you're onto my topic! I've been a Manufacturing Engineer and Supplier Quality Engineer for my entire 30 year carreer so I've got a solid background here. First off, quality is neither complex, nor a perception and it is a physical fact that is easily measured. The misconception here is with the definition. Quality is not building a product to a higher standard. For instance, is a pick axe that's been machined to 0.0005" length a better item than one that is forged to within .125"? No...it's a lot more expensive though. A top-quality product is one that precisely meets the need of the user. Meets...not exceeds. The trick is to assess what the needs are. In the case of the airplane, would it be a higher quality airplane if the edge of every slab of sheetmetal had a full radius instead of just breaking the sharp edge? I don't think so. It would be a more expensive airplane, one that took a heck of lot longer to build; but would it fly better or safer. Would it have a higher resale value? I'm not advocating that ugly is okay. In a pick axe there's no user requirement for pretty, while in an airplane there is (at least on mine, there is). If your requirement is to have the inside of the fuselage polished go right ahead. I, however, would be a lot more interested in the care you took in routing the control cables. Conversely, your thinking may include some access covers for easy inspection that might not be the prettiest execution but they certainly would be a lot more impressive to the next user/pilot than a polished interior. Function, not form, per se, is the requirement. The quasi-caveat is that form can be, if the customer is willing to pay for it, part of the requirement. A smooth paint job on your new car is part of the requirement because you'll pay for it. Rolls Royce paint work is not a requirement because you won't pay for it. The point here is that you should get just as hung up on details as you care to, and no more, so long as the non-negotiable quality levels (do the rivets stay in?) are not violated. Ah geez, I was taking the day off from work, now I'm at it again!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(at)ciswired.com>
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Tedd McHenry wrote: > > > Last Sunday I described problems encountered with the first run of my rebuilt > > engine, (no oil pressure after 20 seconds). > > I'd be really worried about this engine--but I have zero > experience with Lycomings. Can someone with some relevant > Lycoming experience comment on the likely condition of the > bearings in this engine? I know from first-hand experience > that a race car engine will eat its bearings in a lot less > than 20 seconds, at full load, with no oil pressure. > > Whenever I rebuild engines for race cars or road cars, I > always crank the engine (plugs-out) until it shows some oil > pressure before I try to start it. (I also do this after > all oil changes.) Wouldn't this also be a good idea with a > Lycoming? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC > [-6 tail] I wouldn't worry about the engine at all. A freshly-overhauled engine is going to have engine assembly lube all over it (this one had obviously never been run in a test cell or on a dyno or the overhauler would have noticed the problem). The engine assembly lube will have protected everything during the short 20 second run. The amount of time between the start of an oil interruption event and the onset of engine failure is DRAMATICALLY influenced by the amount of load on the engine. As you mention, an engine under full load will be destroyed in a short time if the oil supply is interrupted. However, that same engine under partial load will often last tens of minutes without fresh oil. Finally, at idle loads engines can, sometimes, go literally HOURS without eating it. This characteristic has two major benefits: One, it allows the manufacturers of products like Slick-50, Prolong, etc. to demonstrate the miraculous properties of their products. Second, it means that if you're ever in flight and experience a loss of oil pressure that you can significantly extend your "engine on" time, if needed, by simply throttling back. greg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Idle Speed
Craig, I run a wood prop and balancer on my bird. I think you will find that every combination is a little different. You have to give that balancer some time to break in before you can really judge whats going on. I can Idle down as low as 500rpm it is fairly smooth but not as smooth as 700rpm. Give it some break in time. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions.
<< Does anyone know how to contact them? I tried the number attached to the jig, but it is no longer in service. >> Stephan passed away about a year and a half ago. I understand that his wife (Helen) recently sold the rights to his jigs, but to whom I don't know. I used one of his first RV-6 fuselage jigs and it was well worth the money. I was in and out of the jig in about 10 weeks. Spent my time building the plane, not the jig. I built my own tail/wing jig as per Van's plans which worked-out fine because those jigs are super simple. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> The bearings and journals should have been coated in a special grease > durring assembly. Dry running the engine for 20 sec should have no ill affect > on it. Since the problem was solved early (due to good comom sense) the engine > should be fine. > Ryan Bendure I realize that it's standard practice to do this. Nevertheless, 20 seconds of engine running with no oil pressure would be a lot-- start-up grease or no--for any engine I have experience with. On what basis do you say that it is acceptable in this case? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC [-6 tail] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Todd Webb <toddwe(at)MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Yet another Primer question...
Date: Jan 22, 1998
I tried searching the Archive first, because I have seen this discussion before... I remember talk about a primer that came in a spray can and ethed and primed in one application. Could someone tell me what that product was? Thanks, Todd Webb RV-8 Builder (starting this week) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)Juno.com
Subject: Rivet learning
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Most of your work , a 2X will do. Don Jordan~6A wings~Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sport AV8R <SportAV8R(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Aileron alignment - will this fix it?
Here's what the factory suggested to me ages ago when my poorly-cut templates gave inconsistent results: use thin strips of wood long enough to span the full chord of the wing and extend beyond the trailing and especially the leading edges. Clamp them together at the trailing edge of the aileron, one above and one below the wing. The sticks will enclose an angle equal to the cross-section of the aileron, grasping same snugly. Draw the forward ends of the sticks gently together with strapping until they follow the curves of the wing's surfaces as far as possible toward the leading edge. At some point the radius of the airfoil will become too tight for the wood to follow it; that's the stopping point. Two pairs of these sticks, at each end of the aileron, will securely locate the aileron "in trail" or "fair" to the wing as close as any method I know of. Just be sure to pad the skins against abrasion from the wood. Results are very reproducible and, hey, it's *factory advice!* Bill Boyd 6A final packaging ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press - you can fly w/o oil pressure
Greg Travis wrote: >... if you're ever in flight and experience a loss of oil pressure that you >can significantly extend your "engine on" time, if needed, by simply >throttling back. I can vouch for this first hand on at least three occasions - one ordinary sedan, one racing car and one Beech Debonair (Continental). The cars were each driven very gently more than fifty miles with nearly no oil pressure - knocking loudly but they made the trip! The Deb went nearly that far about 8000 agl sinking slowly to under 1000, also knocking. All the while with good flat farmland below. The crank was ruined but I guessed that it would be cheaper that than be engine-less somewhere without services. I flew at best glide speed and descended slowly but arriving over Red Bluff at 2000 agl. Was this the best way? I don't know. Mechanic who tore the engine down guessed that problem began more than 1300 hours back at the last overhaul. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: John Bright <john.bright(at)bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
osoft.com> Todd: >... primer... spray... ethe and prime in one application... what is it? Marhyde, from auto paint supply houses. John Bright Newport News, VA, USA john.bright(at)bigfoot.com H:757-886-1161 W:757-875-7324 RV-6/6A 25088, rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355 <JNice51355(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
<< left wing finished, riveting right wing skins Going to order a fuselage kit soon! >> Just a quick question. If the left wing is finished, and I assume that the skin was "not" back riveted, why would you want half of your wing skins done with this method? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Marc DeGirolamo <mdee(at)dlcwest.com>
Subject: f-433 hinge shim
I am putting the rear seat together and am about to drill the hinge onto the seatback and into the floorboard. The plans call for a .040 shim under the floor hinge half. I can't see what this is for. Could it be for rivet clearance if the shopheads are under the seat hinge half (facing down)? Marc DeGirolamo -4 ,wing root fairings nearly done....AL strip Saskatoon, Canada Marc DeGirolamo -4 #3289 Saskatoon,SK. Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cafgef <Cafgef(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: VS Offset
<< One thing to remember though is don't commit to a final trim setting until the airplane is in its "exact" final condition (all fairings, smoothing and finishing of fiberglass parts, all drag cleanups completed, etc.) >> I plan on flying the first ten hours without the landing gear fairings to add a little drag while I'm doing the initial break-in of the engine. Sounds like it would also give me a feel for how the -6A does with and without their influence on direction. Gene Francis, Boulder CO Still getting the cowl on straight ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)Juno.com
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Engine Oil Pressure at first start and idle speed.
I used Lubriplate on all my bearings when I rebuilt it. I also packed the oil pump with Lubriplate. When my engine was ready to start, I pulled the top plugs, turned the master on, and monitored the oil pressure while I cranked the starter. This was the cheapest pre-oiler that I could find. I stopped cranking the starter after 10 - 15 seconds because I had oil pressure. The airplane and engine both fly great. My idle is set at about 720 RPM. When I first start, I keep idle up around 1,000 for taxi and engine warm up. It will idle below 600 but is not smooth enough. I set the idle high (800) for the first flight so that the engine would idle smooth. I kept changing it after every other flight. It is hard to set until after the idle mixture is adjust properly. Idle mixture and idle speed both have an effect on the other. Gary A. Sobek EAA Tech Counselor FAA A&P RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Baker" <gtbaker(at)bright.net>
Subject: Re: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions.
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> >Does anyone know how to contact them? I have access to the internal jig, but >do not have instructions. Does anyone have a set they could get to me or a >phone number to reach the company? I tried the number attached to the jig, >but it is no longer in service. > >TIA, Bernie Kerr RV6A fuselage Bernie, Ed Loveday has taken over building and selling the Frey jigs. His company's name and address is Sport Aero, 15 Roberts Road, Plymouth, MA 02360. The phone number is 508/747-0061. I had requested info from Ed in December. He was very quick on getting the info out. He was in the process of moving his shop. Alternate phone numbers are 508/588-8261 and 508/588-7665. Hope this helps. Gary Baker RV-6 (Working on wing spars) N4GB (Reserved) Medina, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
Mar-Hyde works well however it is about $11.00 per spray can, while the Sherman Williams is about $4.50 per can. My problem is the Sherman Williams is about 30 minutes away, and the Mar-Hyde dealer I pass on the way to the Airport. Any one else use the Mar/Hyde Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM RV929(Reserved) Wing's in Jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: MoeJoe <moejoe03(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
I have to agree with Jerry. I bought their benchtop drill press, and it was junk. The head was wobbly. I also bought the 4"x36" belt sander. I also asked for the better one, and was told it was outa stock, so I bought the cheaper model. I never got as far as burning it out though. I didn't like the fit and finish of the various guards and tables that attach to it, and the belt never quite stayed straight. I sent it right back with the drillpress, and got a full refund. I now have a sears Craftsman bench grinder, bandsaw, 2" x 42" sander with a 8" disc, and a floor model drill press. These tools are all top quality, and are a joy to use. You'll be doing alot of sanding/drilling/cutting/grinding, why not get the best? They are expensive, but will give you a lifetime of quality results. Moe Colontonio RV-8 HS in the jig, getting ready to skin (what will I screw up next?) > My experience with the "Central Machinery" belt sander from Harbour > Freight was not a good one for several reasons. If you look thru their > sales papers you will see at least 2 different 4" x 36" belt sanders > advertised, a cheap one and a moderately priced one. I ordered the higher SNIP > > Jerry Isler > RV4 # 1070 > Donalsonville, Ga. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lousmith <Lousmith(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: RV8 photos
I have added a couple of photos of my RV8 to my web site. If interested, take a look at http://members.aol.com/lousmith/rv.html Regards, Louis Smith lousmith(at)aol.com RV8 N801RV #80126 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel H. Morris III" <Morristec(at)icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Yes. It will extend the useful life a by double if the proseal is unopened. Once opened it may not last as long but will surely last longer in the freezer. This info is directly from PRC (the manufacturer). I have used proseal that was frozen that was over 4 years old. Cured fine. Remember to bring the proseal to room temp before using, or it won't mix well. Dan Morris -----Original Message----- From: rv-list(at)matronics.com <rv-list(at)matronics.com> Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 11:40 PM Subject: RV-List: Proseal > >Received: from matronics.com [207.171.206.243] by bbs.icdc.com with smtp >Received: (from daemon@localhost) >Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:55:44 -0500 >From: George McNutt <GMcNutt(at)compuserve.com> >Subject: RV-List: Proseal >To: RV-LIST >Message-ID: <199801220056_MC2-3038-1E37(at)compuserve.com> >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by matronics.com id WAA14060 >Sender: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > >Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it in >the freezer? > >George McNutt - 6A Wings >Langley B.C. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)SagentTech.com>
Subject: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 22, 1998
> > I would not have a cental machinary tool if they paid me to use it. > I will > > not fly in any RV, especially mine, if I knew that cental machinery > tools were > > used to build it. > > Good lord, tool bigotry. Anyway, if you pay $49 for a band saw > and expect it to perform as well as a $499 Delta, you need to > start wearing a respirator when priming. I bought a floor-standing > drill press from Enco and it has been great. I do have a Central > Machinery band saw that I don't use because it is a piece of crap, > but I wouldn't make the generalized statement you made above. > > Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) > RV-6AQME working on the sliding canopy... > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Rivet learning
I built an entire 6A with a 2X gun with no problems. Will use a 2X gun on the next one. -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Rivet learning
robert l. wadsworth wrote: > > > Has anyone attended an Alexander Sportair sheet metal class? How well does > it relate to a RV? > Dumb question, sheet metal is sheet metal, right? > > Also, are there any comments on whether to use a 2X or 3X rivet gun? > > Soon to be builder > Robert > Robert, I attended their class in Fort Worth Tx last October and found it very helpful. We each built a small wing section that had an inspection cover. We learned how to cut & debur aluminum, drill, dimple(using averys c-frame and squeezers), rivet universal & flush rivets with a 3x gun & using the sqeezer, and went through a manual with some basic guidelines in it. We had a blast :-))). Worth every penny. There was one other RV builder in the class and various other aircraft types. Go for it! Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6A #25305 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
KB2DU wrote: > > > Mar-Hyde works well however it is about $11.00 per spray can, while the > Sherman Williams is about $4.50 per can. My problem is the Sherman Williams > is about 30 minutes away, and the Mar-Hyde dealer I pass on the way to the > Airport. > > Any one else use the Mar/Hyde > > Bill > KB2DU(at)AOL.COM > RV929(Reserved) Wing's in Jig > Bill, do you use Mar-hyde exclusively or do you use it in combination with another primer? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Tom Goeddel <tgoeddel(at)mail.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
... >Could someone briefly explain how to back rivet wing skins. I have >the tools and have back riveted control surfaces. I'm wondering how ... You just hold a bucking bar on the outside against the factory head (replacing the metal plate used for the control surfaces...) and the drive shop head with the long offset rivet set on the inside. You should hang on to the rivet set near the business end to help control it and keep it from rotating or slipping off. Be sure to practice first on some scrap - it's not hard to do, but you can make a mess in a hurry if you slip up. Tom Goeddel RV-6a (forever on the fuse...) tgoeddel(at)monmouth.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Tank sealer
I read an article in a 1995 Sport Aviation by Ben Owen about a Novola Epoxy coating made by Jeffco that was used for sealing tanks instead of Proseal. Ben spoke highly of it. Anyone ever try it? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: pagan <pagan(at)cboss.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
> >I remember talk about a primer that came in a spray can and ethed and primed >in one application. > >Could someone tell me what that product was? I'm using Sherwin Williams GBP-988. It comes as two part or in an aerosol can. I keep a can handy for touch up. Gotta get it at the SW auto paint/bodyshop stores. Bill -8 elevator #1 > >Thanks, >Todd Webb >RV-8 Builder (starting this week) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Kinner engines
From: rvpilot(at)Juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Larry, Try contacting the Antique Airplane Assn., Antique Airfield, Rt. 2, Box172, Ottumwa , IA 52501 Phone # is 515-938 2773. Talk to Brent Taylor Regards, Bill RV4 N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< A freshly-overhauled engine is going to have engine assembly lube all over it (this one had obviously never been run in a test cell or on a dyno or the overhauler would have noticed the problem). >> My understanding was that an aircraft engine hasn't been "overhauled" until it has been run by the agency which assembled it. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: 160 hp LYCOMING FOR SALE
From: tcastella(at)Juno.com (Anthony J Castellano)
Hi Bill: I just finished talking to a friend of mine who is building a Bushby Mustang. He told me he is looking for a Lycoming O-320. Is Your friends engine still available? Regards, Tony Castellano tcastella(at)juno.com Hopewell Junction, NY RV-6 (fuselage now out of jig) > >Lycoming O-320-B2B 1000hrs since new, Zero since major. 4 new >cermicrome >cylinders, hollow crank, carb and mags. $11,850. oughtright. > >Bill Mahoney >Sherman, CT >860-354-6933 >RV6ator(at)aol.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< Whenever I rebuild engines for race cars or road cars, I always crank the engine (plugs-out) until it shows some oil pressure before I try to start it. (I also do this after all oil changes.) Wouldn't this also be a good idea with a Lycoming? >> The Lycoming manual claims that if the oil pressure doesn't come up within 30 seconds you must shut it down and wait, then try again. I like the idea of filling the passages manually by turning the prop with the plugs out or by back filling the system with a quart or so thru the oil pressure port. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
From: tcastella(at)Juno.com (Anthony J Castellano)
Sherwin Williams 988 self etching primer in spray cans. I have used SW and Marhyde and like the SW 988 better. It is also a lot cheaper. It is available in auto paint stores. Tony Castellano tcastella(at)juno.com Hopewell Junction, NY RV-6 (fuselage now out of jig) On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:40:05 John Bright writes: > >Todd: > >>... primer... spray... ethe and prime in one application... what is >it? > >Marhyde, from auto paint supply houses. > > >John Bright >Newport News, VA, USA >john.bright(at)bigfoot.com >H:757-886-1161 >W:757-875-7324 >RV-6/6A 25088, rudder > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: VS Offset
>One thing to remember though is don't commit to a final trim setting >until the airplane is in its "exact" final condition (all fairings, >smoothing and finishing of fiberglass parts, all drag cleanups completed, >etc.) >The trim adjustment will be for only one cruise speed so if you want >perfect trim for your best speed ( or a particular speed that you >choose), then don't commit to anything perminent until then. >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. This is the reason that I put a trim tab on the rudder than extended past the rudder trailing edge as opposed to the "wedge". I flew my six, unpainted, and wondered if painting or future changes in h.p. or props might affect trim, so wanted a tab that was adjustable. I tried the flush wedge ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Bob Skinner <bskinr(at)trib.com>
Subject: Re: Crummy Rivets
Scott brings up some very good points. If you live next to George O. & Bob Avery or Bakersfield, CA, it is pretty easy to get a good idea of what constitutes good workmanship. If you're out in the sticks, with few homebuilders (let alone true homebuilders, those building RVs) it's sometimes hard to get educated. You need to keep a sharp eye out. Just because the person has a I.A., A&P or is a EAA Tech Counselor is no guarantee that you will get accurate, usefull information. I've seen some pretty un-airworthy stuff done on aircraft by aircraft mechanics and it doesn't take much to be a tech counselor, i.e. heart must still be pumping blood--oh, by the way, I'm a tech counselor, so I should know:) I think that most RVers who have finished an RV (to airworthy standards) have much more knowledge and skill in sheet metal work than a lot of aircraft mechanics. In the years that I've helped local mechanics (mostly good, except the drunk that was re-building a wrecked Bonanza with an air chisel), I've seen some pretty amazing (and frightening stuff) come in through the doors and the owners were amazed at the cost to upgrade the aircraft to airworhty standards. Sorry, didn't mean to go on. Try to find knowledgable people. Ask people whom you respect. Do a little digging. Don't just trust the "local expert" 'cause everyone says 'ol Joe really knows his stuff. Ask fellow listers if they know of someone close by who can "transfer" some knowledge. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hr. Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com >But, do get "Educated" about what level of quality is exceptable. >This is something that is difficult to present to someone through an >E-mail message. I suggest anyone that has any question in there mind at >all, to get a visit from a couple of experienced builders. >I suggest a couple of builders because not everyone has the same >(exceptable) standards for quality. > >I once did a prebuy inspection of an RV-6 project being sold by a widow >of a man who had been an EAA technical counselor. >Every single rivet in the airplane (the major airframe construction was >completed) had only been driven about 50% of what they should have been. >It may be flying today with it never corrected. >Is it safe? Maybe, no one has ever purposely built one that way and >tested the structure to see. >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mcomeaux" <mcomeaux(at)cmc.net>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 22, 1998
I bought the band saw also and was sure pissed at the performance. I wound up buying a dozen blades and finnally gave it away kept breaking the blades. I was going to use it as a bouy anchor but to heavy to carry around.......Mike Comeaux ---------- > From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)SagentTech.com> > To: 'rv-list(at)matronics.com' > Subject: RE: RV-List: Builder's tools > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 5:50 PM > > > > > > I would not have a cental machinary tool if they paid me to use it. > > I will > > > not fly in any RV, especially mine, if I knew that cental machinery > > tools were > > > used to build it. > > > > Good lord, tool bigotry. Anyway, if you pay $49 for a band saw > > and expect it to perform as well as a $499 Delta, you need to > > start wearing a respirator when priming. I bought a floor-standing > > drill press from Enco and it has been great. I do have a Central > > Machinery band saw that I don't use because it is a piece of crap, > > but I wouldn't make the generalized statement you made above. > > > > Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) > > RV-6AQME working on the sliding canopy... > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 22, 1998
I have to disagree with Moe regarding Sear's power tools. I bought one of their table top band saws and it was of such poor quality that I didn't even completely assemble it. I returned it and bought a good Black and Decker one for slightly more money that I am extremely happy with. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >I have to agree with Jerry. I bought their benchtop drill press, and it >was junk. . I now have a sears >Craftsman bench grinder, bandsaw, 2" x 42" sander with a 8" disc, and a >floor model drill press. These tools are all top quality, and are a joy >to use. You'll be doing alot of sanding/drilling/cutting/grinding, why >not get the best? They are expensive, but will give you a lifetime of >quality results. > >Moe Colontonio >RV-8 HS in the jig, getting ready to skin (what will I screw up next?) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Derek Reed <dreed(at)cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
KB2DU wrote: > > Mar-Hyde works well however it is about $11.00 per spray can, while > the > Sherman Williams is about $4.50 per can. My problem is the Sherman > Williams > is about 30 minutes away, and the Mar-Hyde dealer I pass on the way to > the > Airport. > > Any one else use the Mar/Hyde BillI use Mar/Hyde on small parts when I don't want to mix Vans primer for spraying,find it is a good product ,$13.50 in Medford OR.Have tried to find dealer for SW 988GBP which I assume is your SW @ $4.50 but no one in this part of the world handles it.Anyone in S. Oregon know of a dealer ,or even up to Portland who stocks the stuff.Wonder if the shipping costs would off set the lower price advantage? Derek Reed OR. RV6A, last wing . > > > Bill > KB2DU(at)AOL.COM > RV929(Reserved) Wing's in Jig > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: you can fly w/o oil pressure
>I can vouch for this first hand on at least three occasions - one ordinary >sedan, one racing car and one Beech Debonair (Continental). >Mechanic who tore the engine down guessed that problem began more than 1300 >hours back at the last overhaul. >hal They had one in the local engine shop this week with less than 400 SMOH by a shop in an other area. Crank was 03/03 and they seem to have put STD rod bearings on 1 rod by mistake. Went just under 400 hours and then let go. Crank, Case, and rod trashed. The pilot reported that it had always had a "rattle" in it, and after so many hours he'd just assumed it was "normal". Beware. Everyone makes mistakes, perhaps even the mechanic that assembled *YOUR* engine.... Anyone got a spare 260 HP Lycoming crank laying around? Lycosaurus is *STILL* on strike and they don't know when they will be able to supply the crank. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darrell Anderson" <d.l.anderson(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Proseal
Date: Jan 22, 1998
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD2783.D5404540" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD2783.D5404540 >George McNutt wrote: >>=20 > >>=20 >> Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it = in >> the freezer? I have a product book given to me by Courtaulds in Woodinville, WA, = about a year ago with the understanding that I could make it available = on the web. It should still be current info. If anyone needs the whole = specification sheet on a particular ProSeal product, I could attach it = to an off-List E-mail. Available formats are Adobe Acrobat .pdf (easy = to do, quite readable), MS Word 7 .rtf or .doc (a LOT harder for me to = do), or even .txt.If there's enough interest I could post it to my web = page. (I don't work for Courtaulds) But you guy's are goin' to owe me bigtime! Darrell Anderson RV-4 (Wings, Tanks done, No leaks so far) Great Falls, MT Here's what Courtaulds Aerospace (PRC) has to say about P/S 890 Class B = (Document dated May 1987). Info is virtually identical for P/S 1422 B = and 1750 B if that's what you've acquired: Application and Refrigerated Storage Instructions Application life is the time that the mixed compound remains suitable = for application with injection or extrusion guns. Application life is = always based on standard conditions at 75=B0F and 50% relative humidity. = For every 10=B0F to 15=B0F rise in temperature, application life is = reduced approximately by half, and for every 10=B0F to 15=B0F drop it is = approximately doubled. Cure of sealant below 55=B0F may be greatly = retarded. It is recommended that all aspects of mixing, freezing and = thawing be considered before mechanically mixing and freezing P/S 890 = Class B with less than 1-hour application life. When it is desired to store mixed PS 890 Class B under refrigeration, = use of a quick-freeze technique is recommended so as to minimize the = amount of application life that would be lost in a slower cooling = procedure. One successful method is to immerse the filled cartridges in a slurry of = dry ice and alcohol for 10 minutes. The temperature of the sealant will = drop to approximately -70=B0F and the cartridges may then be transferred = to a storage unit maintained at -20=B0F or below. Mixed P/S 890 Class B = may be stored for 15 days at -20=B0F or 30 days at -40=B0F. The time = consumed by freezing, storing, and thawing operations reduces total = application life by approximately 30 minutes. It should be noted that = there will also be some reduction in application life during = refrigerated storage which depends on the storage temperature and length = of time. After mixing or removal from refrigerated storage and thawing, apply the = sealant with an extrusion gun equipped with 1/8 to 1/4" tip. Hold gun = nearly perpendicular so that extruded sealant will be forced into the = lip of the seam. On most applications, the fillet should be 3/16" to = 1/4" thick, but heavier fillets can be applied in a single operation, if = necessary. Curing The length of cure depends on the ambient temperature and relative = humidity. The temperature/time relationship is approximately the same = for curing as it is for application life. Low humidities may extend the = cure several times. However high humidities greatly reduces the cure = cycle. Cure may be hastened by applying heat up to 130=B0F. P/S 890 = Class B develops a high state of cure in 14 days at 75=B0F. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD2783.D5404540 http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
>George McNutt wrote:
>>
>
>> =
>>=20 Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it=20 in
>> the freezer?

I have a product book given to me by Courtaulds in Woodinville, WA, = about a=20 year ago with the understanding that I could make it available on the = web. =20 It should still be current info. If anyone needs the whole = specification=20 sheet on a particular ProSeal product, I could attach it to an = off-List=20 E-mail. Available formats are Adobe Acrobat .pdf (easy to do, = quite=20 readable), MS Word 7 .rtf or .doc (a LOT harder for me to do), or = even=20 .txt.If there's enough interest I could post it to my web page. (I don't = work=20 for Courtaulds)

But you guy's are goin' to owe me bigtime!

Darrell = Anderson

RV-4 (Wings,=20 Tanks done, No leaks so far)

Great Falls, MT

Here's what Courtaulds Aerospace (PRC) has = to say=20 about P/S 890 Class B (Document dated May 1987). Info = is=20 virtually identical for P/S 1422 B and 1750 B if that's what = you've=20 acquired:

Application and Refrigerated Storage Instructions

Application life is the time that the mixed compound remains suitable = for=20 application with injection or extrusion guns. Application life is always = based=20 on standard conditions at 75°F and 50% relative humidity. For every = 10°F=20 to 15°F rise in temperature, application life is reduced = approximately by=20 half, and for every 10°F to 15°F drop it is approximately = doubled. Cure=20 of sealant below 55°F may be greatly retarded. It is recommended = that all=20 aspects of mixing, freezing and thawing be considered before = mechanically mixing=20 and freezing P/S 890 Class B with less than 1-hour application life.

When it is desired to store mixed PS 890 Class B under refrigeration, = use of=20 a quick-freeze technique is recommended so as to minimize the amount of=20 application life that would be lost in a slower cooling procedure.

One successful method is to immerse the filled cartridges in a slurry = of dry=20 ice and alcohol for 10 minutes. The temperature of the sealant will drop = to=20 approximately -70°F and the cartridges may then be transferred to a = storage=20 unit maintained at -20°F or below. Mixed P/S 890 Class B may be = stored for=20 15 days at -20°F or 30 days at -40°F. The time consumed by = freezing,=20 storing, and thawing operations reduces total application life by = approximately=20 30 minutes. It should be noted that there will also be some reduction in = application life during refrigerated storage which depends on the = storage=20 temperature and length of time.

After mixing or removal from refrigerated storage and thawing, apply = the=20 sealant with an extrusion gun equipped with 1/8 to 1/4" tip. Hold = gun=20 nearly perpendicular so that extruded sealant will be forced into the = lip of the=20 seam. On most applications, the fillet should be 3/16" to 1/4" = thick,=20 but heavier fillets can be applied in a single operation, if=20 necessary.

Curing

The length of cure depends on the ambient temperature and relative = humidity.=20 The temperature/time relationship is approximately the same for curing = as it is=20 for application life. Low humidities may extend the cure several times. = However=20 high humidities greatly reduces the cure cycle. Cure may be hastened by = applying=20 heat up to 130°F. P/S 890 Class B develops a high state of cure in = 14 days=20 at 75°F.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD2783.D5404540-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
><< A freshly-overhauled engine is going to have engine assembly lube all over it >(this one had obviously never been run in a test cell or on a dyno or the >overhauler would have noticed the problem). >> > >My understanding was that an aircraft engine hasn't been "overhauled" until it >has been run by the agency which assembled it. > >-GV That is correct. In order to provide a maintenance release (Yellow Tag) they *MUST* test it. Clearly on this experimental it wasn't deemed necessary. Lycoming gives clear instructions about procedures to test a new engine in their manuals. The FARs require Certified Repair Stations to test items after OH. Maybe this wasn't done by a CRS? Maybe they were a little sloppy on the paperwork? Glad you caught it before any real damage was done. May your engine run smooth to TBO after having given you so much trouble right out of the box. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Scat Tubing Question
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 23, 1998
> >I am retrofitting cabin heat to my RV-4, and in running the 2" Scat >tubing to >the heat muff from the selector, I can't seem to get the 2" scat >tubing to fit >over the outlets. It will fit if I cut the wire back inside and then >slip the >tubing over, but is this acceptable practice? Does the wire have to be >over >the aluminum tubing and under the hose clamp? It seems like in the >GenAV >planes I've been around, its about half one way and half the other, >but I want >to be sure. Any special tricks? Thanks. >Von Alexander >RV-4 N107RV (RV-8 #544) >MAlexan533(at)aol.com > > > Pull about 3 spirals of the inner wire out the end and cut it off. Then put a 45 deg bend in the wire approx. 1/4 inch from the end. push the wire back inside so that it lays over itself ( the small bend you put in the end will keep it from poking out through the side). Install with clamps being sure that the thread that wraps the outside is trapped under the clamp at the end. One last thing I like to do (considering the high cost of the SCAT tubing) is to run a small bead of high temp RTV on the outside of the tube full length. As the hose ages, if the thread should break or get cut from rubbing on something, this will prevent it from unraveling more than one turn and ruining the hose. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533 <MAlexan533(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Scat Tubing Question
I am retrofitting cabin heat to my RV-4, and in running the 2" Scat tubing to the heat muff from the selector, I can't seem to get the scat tubing to fit over the outlets, unless I cut the wire back inside and then slip the tubing over, but is this acceptable practice? Or does the wire inside the tubing also need to be over the outlet and under the hose clamp? If so, any special tricks? Thanks Von Alexander RV-4 N107RV RV-8 #544 MAlexan533(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 23, 1998
> >Hi Listers, >Could someone briefly explain how to back rivet wing skins. I have >the tools and have back riveted control surfaces. I'm wondering how >this is >done in a fixture. >Craig Nelson It is done very much the same way that you do your control surfaces but you need a helper to hold the back rivet set (good sized bucking bar or similar) against the rivet for you. For a rivet set you will need something similar to what is in the avery catalog ( don't know the part # but its about 12" long with a single offset on the end to help get around rib flanges etc.). We did a modification to the one we have in our shop which makes it work much better. Heat the end with a torch and put a second bend next to the first so that it has a double offset shape. This will allow you to drive on the rivet from straight on (though offset to the side) instead of at an angle. Back riveting can produce the best finish possible if done correctly. Another big advantage is it can be quite fast if the two people working together have some practice. In our shop we rivet the to main skins on a wing in about an hour. BTW We do almost the entire riveting of the skins on a fuselage this way. I showed the guys in the Quick build shop in the Phillipines while I was there, and now that is how they do all the fuselages and some of the wing skins. The workmanship is now even better than ever on the Q.B. kits. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Engine Oil Pressure at first start and idle speed.
<< I used Lubriplate on all my bearings when I rebuilt it. I also packed the oil pump with Lubriplate. When my engine was ready to start, I pulled the top plugs, turned the master on, and monitored the oil pressure while I cranked the starter. This was the cheapest pre-oiler that I could find. I stopped cranking the starter after 10 - 15 seconds because I had oil pressure. The airplane and engine both fly great. >> Gary, This is the same Lube that I use on the engines I have done. Its always worked well and never let me down.(knock on wood). This is also the same technique I use for a first time run and I find it works quite well. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< I realize that it's standard practice to do this. Nevertheless, 20 seconds of engine running with no oil pressure would be a lot-- start-up grease or no--for any engine I have experience with. On what basis do you say that it is acceptable in this case? Tedd McHenry >> Tedd, Assuming that the engine was run at an idle setting and not a high power setting their should have been plenty of protection for 20 seconds. This is also assuming that the engine was assembled properly and with the correct prelube. We dont really know who assembled the engine or how. I have seen many airplanes that take as long as that to get oil pressure on cold colorado mornings without preheat. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< My understanding was that an aircraft engine hasn't been "overhauled" until it has been run by the agency which assembled it. >> GV, Remember: the agency that overhauled it could have been a mechanic in his garage. His test cell may be the airplane the engine is being hung on. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F Mark40 <FMark40(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Cheap power tools
Regarding the cheap power tools, I have a 6" bench grinder and 1" belt / 8" disc sander from Grizzly Imports. The prices are the same as the Central Machinery stuff and it is of similar design, but I have had good luck with the motors and they give good support if you have a problem. They have a full color catalog and can be reached at 800 523-4777. I also have a Smithy lathe / mill combination machine which I will discuss with anyone who is interested. Mark McGee RV4 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zeidman, Richard B" <Richard.Zeidman(at)PHL.Boeing.com>
Subject: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions.
Date: Jan 23, 1998
> ---------- > > > << Does anyone know how to contact them? I tried the number attached > to the > jig, > but it is no longer in service. >> > > Stephan passed away about a year and a half ago. I understand that his > wife > (Helen) recently sold the rights to his jigs, but to whom I don't > know. I used > one of his first RV-6 fuselage jigs and it was well worth the money. > I was in > and out of the jig in about 10 weeks. Spent my time building the > plane, not > the jig. I built my own tail/wing jig as per Van's plans which > worked-out fine > because those jigs are super simple. > > Gary Corde > RV-6 N211GC - NJ > Try calling area code 610. West Chester's AC changed from 215 about 3 years ago. Rich Zeidman RV6A > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
Scott: I went through the Avery Book and could not find the (12" Long Offset Tool ) for back rivetting the Wing Skins, any clue on the part number. Thanks Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
From: bob.char.reeves(at)Juno.com (Robert L Reeves)
I've been using Mar-Hyde for both steel and alum. I'd give it a 8 overall. Not quite as durable as epoxy but alot more convenient and cheaper. It comes in a Big spray can or gallons. Bob Reeves Building Bearhawk, Flying RV-4 Hidden River Airport, Sarasota, Florida ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Projects in Alaska
My wife and I are booking cruise tickets to Alaska over Memorial Day weekend. We'll arrive in Anchorage that Friday and leave Alaska the following Tuesday. I'm wondering if anyone on the list has a project to visit while we're up there. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Keith Warfield <kpwarfield(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
Bill, If you have the 97 catalog it's at the bottom of page 21. "extra long back riveting set" P/N 4580 $23.00 I have one of these, practiced with it, didn't like it, but am going to try the "double" offset and give it another try. The single offset made it hard to control. Looks like the double offset will solve this as the gun's motion is in the same direction as the rivet being set. Thanks for the tip Scott! Keith Warfield RV-6A Wings KB2DU wrote: I went through the Avery Book and could not find the (12" Long Offset Tool )for back rivetting the Wing Skins, any clue on the part number. Thanks Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Gary kozinski <KOZINSKI(at)symbol.com>
Subject: Stephan Frey Engineering fuselage jig instructions.
The jig is now being sold by RV-6 Builder Ed Loveday as follows: Sport Aero is to resume manufacture of Steve Frey's jigs. His widow and I came to an agreement a couple of months ago, and I now have the entire complement of stock, tooling and master jigs installed in my shop. I'm not planning any changes. The new shop is across the street from Plymouth (MA) Airport (PYM), and the address is: Sport Aero, 15 Roberts Rd. Unit G, Plymouth, MA, 02360. Telephone is (508) 747-0061. Hope I can be of service. Ed Loveday eloveday(at)ici.net RV-6 20181 Fuselage working in cockpit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Sharlene Shipley or Bruce Knoll <snsbfk(at)mail.sage.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
Hi Bill, Try 1-800-sw ultra. They can provide you with the name, etc. of a distributor near you. I did and it worked out. Bruce Knoll working on empennage - slowly > >KB2DU wrote: > >> >> Mar-Hyde works well however it is about $11.00 per spray can, while >> the >> Sherman Williams is about $4.50 per can. My problem is the Sherman >> Williams >> is about 30 minutes away, and the Mar-Hyde dealer I pass on the way to >> the >> Airport. >> >> Any one else use the Mar/Hyde > >BillI use Mar/Hyde on small parts when I don't want to mix Vans primer >for spraying,find it is a good product ,$13.50 in Medford OR.Have tried >to find dealer for SW 988GBP which I assume is your SW @ $4.50 but no >one in this part of the world handles it.Anyone in S. Oregon know of a >dealer ,or even up to Portland who stocks the stuff.Wonder if the >shipping costs would off set the lower price advantage? > >Derek Reed OR. RV6A, last wing . > >> >> >> Bill >> KB2DU(at)AOL.COM >> RV929(Reserved) Wing's in Jig >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Freye jig instructions.FAX
Bernie, I just faxed you all the intructions that I was able to find with a quick look. Let me know if they are what you needed or if you want me to look for more. Also let me know if the FAX was clear enough. I think it was 19 or 20 pages altogether. Tell Tom I'm sorry for waking him up last night. I thought it was a dedicated FAX line. Al > >Does anyone know how to contact them? I have access to the internal jig, but >do not have instructions. Does anyone have a set they could get to me or a >phone number to reach the company? I tried the number attached to the jig, >but it is no longer in service. > >TIA, Bernie Kerr RV6A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Frey Jig FAX--Oops
Listers, Sorry for that last message to Bernie. It was supposed to be off list. I gotta check that "To:" line better. Al ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
Try Marhyde, Its a self eching epoxy primer. I purchase mine at a local Auto Paint supply store. It also come in pint and quarts for if your interested. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: follow up on oil press. problem(it could only happen to me!)
<< << My understanding was that an aircraft engine hasn't been "overhauled" until it has been run by the agency which assembled it. >> GV, Remember: the agency that overhauled it could have been a mechanic in his garage. His test cell may be the airplane the engine is being hung on. >> Another good call for caveat emptor. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric.Henson(at)cendantmobility.com
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Back riveting wing skins
Pg 21, pt #04580 Rivet set Pg 22 pt #00635 Bucking Bar Eric Henson I went through the Avery Book and could not find the (12" Long Offset Tool ) for back rivetting the Wing Skins, any clue on the part number. Thanks Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
The Avery part number is 4580 - This is not the double offset, I take it that you have to make the second offset yourself. Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: Poor A&P's -- was Crummy Rivets
Bob Skinner wrote: >I've seen some pretty un-airworthy stuff done on aircraft by aircraft mechanics and it I've seen some scary work in process and complete by A&P's too. And IAs. Most are just like there counterparts in the auto shop - parts replacers. If one is a truly good mechanic, there are better opportunities than the puddlejumper patchup shop. There are high quality auto shops where they can make a lot more money with a lot less responsibility. One graduating class from an aircraft mechanic school were all hired by IBM for computer equipment repairers. I had several really good mechanics work for me but they got their engineering degrees and left. My experiences with my Debonair have been dismal. On an annual the mechanic found the left mag to be badly corroded inside so he replaced it. On overhaul which was started when a rod bearing went just 3 hours after the annual, the right mag looked just as bad! The "mechanic" didn't bother to open it up! The annual before, they just changed oil and sent me on my way but there were actually a host of problems found in the next few annuals. I had a new transponder fitted. They wedged a hunk of hose in to hold it in place! My comm antenna is mounted on the skin with no doubler. Those of you who have owned planes know this but newbies find it all hard to believe. In Egypt, mummies have been found that were filled with sand - no bodies! Cost reduction in early times! Fresh mummies always in stock ready to ship. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Edward Cole <emcole(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
Tom Goeddel wrote: > > > ... > >Could someone briefly explain how to back rivet wing skins. I have > >the tools and have back riveted control surfaces. I'm wondering how > ... > You just hold a bucking bar on the outside against the factory head > (replacing the metal plate used for the control surfaces...) and the > drive > shop head with the long offset rivet set on the inside. You should > hang on > to the rivet set near the business end to help control it and keep it > from > rotating or slipping off. Be sure to practice first on some scrap - > it's not > hard to do, but you can make a mess in a hurry if you slip up. > > Tom Goeddel > RV-6a (forever on the fuse...) > tgoeddel(at)monmouth.com > Guys, I went to a surplus tool supplier and found a thread guage for a 4" pipe. The surfaces is flat and the thing weighs about 5 lbs. I put duct tape around the threads to minimize scratches and touched the face up with the scotchbrite wheel. I works great for back riviting and cost me under $10. Van's has a similar bucking bar that in it's previous life was a tank wheel axle.. so they told me. Ed Cole RV6A Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 1998
From: "Larry D. Hoatson" <lhoatson(at)e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: right seat navigator needed
Kevin, Saw your post re: Sun-n-Fun and might be interested/able to go if you still have a seat available. I'm located 65 miles east of LA at Redlands (L12) California. I have 500 hours, an instrument rating (dormant), and love navigation! Let me know! Larry -- Larry D. Hoatson Yucaipa, CA Redlands (L12) Airport lhoatson(at)empirenet.com Restoring 1950 Cessna 170A N9948A... Looking forward to RV-6 "Either Raise Your Skill Level... or Lower Your Standards" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: John Bright <john.bright(at)bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
>Try Marhyde, Its a self eching epoxy primer. Self-etching yes.... epoxy no. John Bright Newport News, VA, USA john.bright(at)bigfoot.com H:757-886-1161 W:757-875-7324 RV-6/6A 25088, rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: wayne bonesteel <wayneb(at)oakweb.com>
Subject: Builders tools
Marty Emrath wrote: > Has anyone had any experience with Central Machinery tools as supplied by > Harbour Freight. I am looking at purchasing a "Combination 4" x 36" belt > and 6" Sander" Marty I bought central mach. 9" disc 6" x 48" belt sander, it's heavy cast iron ,made in china, rather crude but works just fine dressing edges etc. I also have used a Taiwan built drill press for over 15 years, just get good sanding belts and disks at your local hardware. Wayne bonesteel rv-4 fuselage forward floor ribs don't fit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: wayne bonesteel <wayneb(at)oakweb.com>
Subject: Proseal
George McNutt wrote: > > Anyone know if you can extend the shelf life of Proseal by keeping it in > the freezer? > > George McNutt - 6A Wings > Langley B.C. > George the sealant Vans sells now is Thiakol 236 (I think it used to be Pro-seal)from Advanced Chemistry & Technology, Inc. Garde Grove CA. Ph.(714)373-2837 fax (714)373-1913 contact Nick Champlin. They were very helpfull and faxed me complete data including mixing instructions, cure times etc. Wayne Bonesteel RV-4 just started fuselage & forward floor ribs don't fit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: "robert l. wadsworth" <110014.1237(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: info
info ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Poor A&P's -- was Crummy Rivets
<< Bob Skinner wrote: >I've seen some pretty un-airworthy stuff done on aircraft by aircraft mechanics and it I've seen some scary work in process and complete by A&P's too. And IAs. Most are just like there counterparts in the auto shop - parts replacers. If one is a truly good mechanic, there are better opportunities than the puddlejumper patchup shop. There are high quality auto shops where they can make a lot more money with a lot less responsibility. One graduating class from an aircraft mechanic school were all hired by IBM for computer equipment repairers. I had several really good mechanics work for me but they got their engineering degrees and left. >> Bob&Hal, Everything stated here is true. I have picked up jobs from my coworkers that scares me sometimes. When I received my A&P I was told it was a license to learn. That statement couldnt be more true. I work on small airplanes as well as airplanes that carry over 300 people. The two are completely different worlds, like night and day. Its imposible to know every rule, regulation or every procedure for any given job. 90% of the time is spent researching and 10% is spent doing the actual job.(slight exageration) Some people are better at spotting defects than others yet may not be able to turn a wrench. Some are good at turning wrenches but seem to be blind. Some have no interest in the field or what they are doing there. So why are they? There are a few of us though that do it because we love airplanes. We are human though, and make honest mistakes just like anyone else. If any one has spent much time reading the FAR's they know that the book leaves plenty of room for confusion in many areas. I work in the field with many other A&Ps and I cant help but agree that 30% to 40% of the people I work with have no buisness working in this profession. If you dont agree with something your A&P is telling you, or has done, take the time to ask someone else. If I am unsure of a job I have completed. I find an individual who knows the area I am working in better than I do and have it looked over with a second set of eye's. Its not any different than getting a second opinion from a doctor. A&P's ARE NOT GOD'S THEY ARE JUST PEOPLE ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Trip to Alaska
From: wstucklen1(at)Juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Listers, I'm starting the planning process for a two week trip to Alaska mid May time frame in my -6A. Route of travel will be from New England to Rochester Mn, then on up to the Calgary, Canada area and following the Alcan Highway to Juno and Fairbanks (& who knows from there...). Anybody West of Rochester Mn interested in some left seat time or a ride in trade for a place to stay overnight email me off the list....... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Christopher E Browne"<cebrowne@duke-energy.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Builder's tools
Moe - I think this issue is like so many others when it comes to commercial products, there are some steals and some deals out there. I have had pretty good luck with HF, but I also don't expect much from a $50 drill press. The quality of their tools runs the spectrum, and I have had some lousy, unnecessarily expensive tools from Sears and other places. The HF 1" tabletop belt sander is identical to the Delta model in Home Depot, only $30 less from HF. Had you bought the $229 or better floor drill press, I'm guessin' you would be much happier and that is probably about what you paid for the Delta. Also, I've seen the $99 Delta bench drill press and its pretty rough, definitely not worth the money. I can also tell you about a HF bandsaw that has spent 12 hard years in a barn on a farm and the owner loves it, but it costs over $200. Speaking of tools, I got my pneumatic squeezer yesterday. What a blast! Now I know what perfect rivet looks like. It sure was painful to buy, but it helps my confidence. Chris Browne -6 Emp, still riveting scrap ______________________________ Reply Separator ____________________________ _____ Subject: Re: RV-List: Builder's tools Date: 1/22/98 8:12 PM I have to agree with Jerry. I bought their benchtop drill press, and it was junk. The head was wobbly. ... Moe Colontonio RV-8 HS in the jig, getting ready to skin (what will I screw up next?) > My experience with the "Central Machinery" belt sander from Harbour > Freight was not a good one for several reasons. If you look thru their > sales papers you will see at least 2 different 4" x 36" belt sanders > advertised, a cheap one and a moderately priced one. I ordered the higher SNIP > > Jerry Isler > RV4 # 1070 > Donalsonville, Ga. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod <WoodardRod(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
> I went through the Avery Book and could not find the (12" Long Offset Tool ) > for back rivetting the Wing Skins, any clue on the part number. > Hi Bill, Just looked in my 1997 Avery catalog. Page 21 way at the bottom: Extra Long Back Riveting Set, Part #4580, $23.00 ea. Happy building! Rod Woodard RV-8, #80033 Loveland, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
I am sorry I stated that this (Marhyde) was an epoxy primer, it is NOT EPOXY. Thanks to all who corrected me. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBusick505 <RBusick505(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Setrab oil cooler...?
<< What about the Setrab oil cooler? Does anyone have any experience with it. Is it any good? Is it safe to use on an aircraft? >> I have one but have not mounted it yet, not that far into the project. It looks like a high quality product, looks much nicer than a Harrison oilcooler. But, it is only 1/2 the thickness of the Harrision cooler. It is designed for A/C use. Not a good solution if you are having cooling problems as outlined in the Edwards AFB Open House thread. But, if you expect problems with oil temps too low, then it might work out well. Bob Busick RV-6 Fremont CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBusick505 <RBusick505(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
<< I think this issue is like so many others when it comes to commercial products, there are some steals and some deals out there. I have had pretty good luck with HF, but I also don't expect much from a $50 drill press. >> I would expect it to last longer than 30 minutes. I am tired of paying money for things that don't work. I do not want the best tools, I want a tool that is reliable and that will adequately do the job. HF may be able to provide adequate tools, but I did not get one and I will spend my money elsewhere, even if the tool costs more! I have a friend who convinced me to start building a homebuilt. He is a ATP/CFII/AP/AI etc. He knows airplanes, at least a lot more that I do. He told me based upon what he has seen in the homebuilt industry, that he would never fly in any homebuilt no matter what brand or who built it. I do not hold that view, but I do respect him for his position. But, it has influenced my decision on just what homebuilt I will fly in as a passenger or pilot. Anyone using what I consider to be substandard tools to build an airplane, is suspect in my mind in many other areas in the building process. Before I bet my life on an airplane that someone else built, I must have some confindence in his building skills, judgement and final product. Since I do not have much evidence to base that decision on, I consider the type and quality of the tools as one factor to determine the quality of the airplane. As you can tell, I am very passionate about this subject. I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone or anyone's tools. That is not my intent. I do hope that new builders who are wrestling with the same problem I had will learn from my mistakes and wisdom. Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement. I have done the bad judgement part, maybe someone else can gain from my mistakes. And please do not think I am being holier than thou, because I won't fly in a certain homebuilt built with a certain type of tool. But as a former EAA Chapter President, a hybrid RV-6/Glassair/ was donated to my chapter. The fiberglass empannage was glued to the aluminum fuselage, the forward wing attach angle that attaches the fuel tank to the fuselage was riveted to the fuselage aluminum skin only, with no structure behind the skin. Our chapter decertified the ariplane as not airworthy, and gave it to a museum as a static display. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that, that airplane is now flying somewhere in West Texas without any structural modifications being made. My point, there is some real junk out there, and in this case it looked just like an RV-6 except for the Glassair tail. Now you know how I feel about the subject! Bob Busick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Richard TREANOR <rtreanor(at)ci.sunnyvale.ca.us>
Subject: QA Issue
A recent thread raised the interesting insure of Quality Assurance and the novice builder. I am currently on the horizontal stabilizer of what I hope will one day be an actual flying RV-6A. After studying the plans, watching the Orndorff video and reading the Justice manual I stepped into my garage and built a piece of scrap of that was intended to be the forward spar for the HS. It seems that because of my painstaking efforts to reproduce the exact dimensions stated on the plans, I drilled holes in the 602 spar yielding grossly inadequate edge distances. Yes, I read the warnings in Van's instructions about 2d edge clearance and even the admonition in Bunny's guide warning me about this somewhat tricky procedure, but my faith was strong! Called Van's for help and talked with Tom, who has heard my story many times. He informed me that I just can't blindly take the plans on faith, but that I need to be aware of what I'm actually trying to accomplish. Gulp! I mean, I was really counting on blindly following plans, and buying this kit *was* an act of pure faith! I took metal shop 35 years ago and we weren't building airplanes!? Why am I here telling my story? I have two questions. 1) Now that I know the edge distance requirements for .032 aluminum what is the requirement for 1/8" angle stock? Seems like it should be less, but don't know. 2) Any publications where I can reference these kinds of questions? Yes, I'll be attending the next EAA meeting at Reid Hillview in San Jose, because I obviously need serious help! Rich Treanor Sunnyvale ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355 <JNice51355(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Proseal
<< George the sealant Vans sells now is Thiakol 236 >> Is that as in Morton Thiakol? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: halk(at)sybase.com (Hal Kempthorne)
Subject: Re: I'm not flying.... (was Builder's tools
Bob Busick wrote: >I won't fly in a certain homebuilt built with a certain type of tool My mother said: "I won't fly in any airplane, even a Boeing!" I understand them both. We each have our own standards. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: QA Issue - AKA rivet spacing
<< 1) Now that I know the edge distance requirements for .032 aluminum what is the requirement for 1/8" angle stock? Seems like it should be less, but don't know. 2) Any publications where I can reference these kinds of questions? Yes, I'll be attending the next EAA meeting at Reid Hillview in San Jose, because I obviously need serious help! >> Don't panic!!!!!!! You want Aircraft Sheet Metal From Jeppesen, product #EA- SM. S'got all the right poop on the subject. Page 27 Fig. 4-1 gives the details under: Rivet dia - Drill size - Cleco color - Bucking bar wt - Edge dist. - Rivet pitch 3/32 40 Silver 2-3.0 lbs 6/32 9/32 1/8 30 copper 3-4.0 lbs 1/4 3/8 5/32 21 Black 3-4.5 lbs 10/32 15/32 3/16 11 gold 4-5.0 lbs 6/16 9/16 6/16" ?!?!?!? when it's got 3/8" just two lines up and one over? Just quoting the book so don't yell at me for not reducing my fractions....I prefer metric anyway! Note that the edge distance is not a function of material thickness; it's related to the diameter of the hole being drilled. A hole of X diameter needs 2X material remaining between the hole and the closest edge. Similarly, the rivet pitch, that is to say, the distance from the center of one rivet to the next is again a function of the rivet size. The center of a rivet of X diameter should be 1.5X away from the center of the next rivet. Hmmmmm. Guess that's why the funny fractions....makes 'em easy to calculate. Metric woulda been easier still, though. If you go to Reid Hillview early enough to catch 'em before they close, the flight shop next to the EAA meeting hanger carries this tome for about $18. At least I assume they do....I got mine at San Carlos and I know that RH has a better bookshop. See you there. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Yet another Primer question...
Bob Have you had a problem with the Mar-Hyde in the gallon size, I put it into the spray gun and the amount of dust & overspray is 10 time that of the cans, If you are spraying with a gun I wonder what PSI your using. Thanks Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM N929RV ( Reserved ) Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Poor A&P's -- was Crummy Rivets
Gentlemen A& P's are like Presidents - Some play around & get caught Some Play around and dont get caught & And then there are the Honest Abe Lincoln type - But as an Aircraft Owner - you have to pick your poison. I would not feel secure with an "Oil Change Anual" Bill KB2DU(at)AOL.COM N929RV (Reserved) RV6 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: bcon(at)ix.netcom.com (Robert M. Cornacchia )
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
You wrote: > > >Scott: > >I went through the Avery Book and could not find the (12" Long Offset Tool ) >for back rivetting the Wing Skins, any clue on the part number. > >Thanks Bill >KB2DU(at)AOL.COM > > > Hi Bill, The tool you are looking for is on page 21 at the very bottom of the page, the number is #4580 and cost $23.00. I have one but I have not used it yet. I have heard builders complaining that tis tool needs to be bent at a greater angle. Oh by the way the catalog I have is a 1997. Hope this helps. Bob Cornacchia RV6 Working on wings. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Date: Jan 23, 1998
There has been a lot of talk lately about buying tools, and I can't stay out of it any longer. I used to be an auto mechanic, I built my own rather large house, I've been a degreed engineer for over a decade. I advise all my good freinds not to shop at sears or buy cheap tools. I've got a drawer full of broken craftsman tools. When you're serious about the tools you use, you don't give a hoot about a return warrantee. If your tool breaks, you're out of business. I have never broken a snap-on wrench of any sort although I don't think too much of their screwdrivers. I would encourage anyone serious enough about tools to build an airplane to buy good tools. If you buy the best, you've eliminated the tool as a problem source. We all know that Avery, Cleaveland and Brown sell good specialty tools. I can recommend "Tools on Sale" as the best place in the country to buy most other tools. call 1-800-328-0457. They are cheapest and they pay the freight charges. They are also fast to deliver. I do own 2 great Craftsman tools, a table saw and a drill press. They were both built in the early 1950's, when craftsman got a good reputation. Off my soap box Brian Eckstein ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Mack" <donmack(at)allways.net>
Subject: Re: I'm not flying.... (was Builder's tools
Date: Jan 23, 1998
charset="us-ascii" > >Bob Busick wrote: > >>I won't fly in a certain homebuilt built with a certain type of tool > >My mother said: > >"I won't fly in any airplane, even a Boeing!" > >I understand them both. We each have our own standards. > >hal Next time you get on one of those big birds. Take a look at the rivets. You will be amazed. Don Mack RV-6a fuse http://www.flash.net/~donmack ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting wing skins
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Taping the rivet set to the behive retainer to keep it from turning while riveting also helps a great deal. I think one of our Aussie friends pointed this out on the list and it sure worked for me. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >We did a modification to the one we have in our shop which makes it work >much better. >Heat the end with a torch and put a second bend next to the first so that >it has a double offset shape. This will allow you to drive on the rivet >from straight on (though offset to the side) instead of at an angle. > > >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. >These opinions and ideas are my own >and do not necessarily reflect the opinions >of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: QA Issue - AKA rivet spacing
*** good chart snipped *** > >Note that the edge distance is not a function of material thickness; it's >related to the diameter of the hole being drilled. A hole of X diameter needs >2X material remaining between the hole and the closest edge. Bob .. back to school ...:^) The 2x dimension is from the CENTER of the hole. So it's actually 1.5x remaining material. > >Similarly, the rivet pitch, that is to say, the distance from the center of >one rivet to the next is again a function of the rivet size. The center of a >rivet of X diameter should be 1.5X away from the center of the next rivet. Same sort of math error. The chart gave it as 3x, again it's measured from rivet center to center. In actual fact, these edge distances are slightky affected by countersinking and dimpling, and the EXACT edge distances that Van uses for his strength calculations are at the Mil-Spec on my web site: http://www.flash.net/~gila However, the minimum pitch you quoted seems almost like a "tear along the dotted line" instruction ...:^) It is different (by quite a large amount) for c/s and dimpled rivets - see Table VI on the Spec. above. The pitch you mentioned would fall under the following quote: "Lesser minimum spacings require government design activity approval unless otherwise indicated on the drawing" I wouldn't put a row of structural rivets at the 3x pitch UNLESS that was actually called out for in Vans drawings. Gil (it's all been documented) Alexander > >Hmmmmm. Guess that's why the funny fractions....makes 'em easy to calculate. >Metric woulda been easier still, though. > >If you go to Reid Hillview early enough to catch 'em before they close, the >flight shop next to the EAA meeting hanger carries this tome for about $18. >At least I assume they do....I got mine at San Carlos and I know that RH has a >better bookshop. > >See you there. > >Bob Fritz > ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701, finishing kit "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvmils(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: rv's in az
Are there any of you guys out here that would be willing to let me tag along in the backseat. My name is Carey Mills, I'm on the U.S. Army Parachute Team (Golden Knights). I'm out here for one month traning at a drop zone in Eloy, AZ. Before I left home I had just mounted my wings to fuse and hook up all the lines to the fuel selector. I hope to fly sometime around May and it sure would be nice to get alittle stick time while I'm on the road, because as you all know when we are at home we are driving rivets. Thanks, rv4 Carey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: QA Issue
>Why am I here telling my story? I have two questions. > >1) Now that I know the edge distance requirements for .032 aluminum >what is the requirement for 1/8" angle stock? Seems like it should be >less, but don't know. > >2) Any publications where I can reference these kinds of questions? > >Yes, I'll be attending the next EAA meeting at Reid Hillview in San Jose, >because I obviously need serious help! > >Rich Treanor >Sunnyvale Rich, The edge distances for the .032 and 1/8" angle are the same - 2d. If the load that the two different sizes were carrying was the same, then you could probably get away with less. But, the reason for using a piece of 1/8" angle instead of .032 angle is because of the load that it is designed to carry - such as your HS forward spar splice angles, as I assume this is what you're talking about. These angles splice together two pieces of a very important structural piece and need to be strong due to the load they will carry. Thus, their edge distance requirements are the same. In fact, I would consider increasing the distance slightly just for peace of mind. The ground is hard!! What kinds of troubles are you having? I am still working on my empennage, so all is fresh in my mind still. I have had no trouble with the plans thus far, except for the rudder bottom area. But common sense prevailed and I now have a rudder hanging on my wall that I am quite proud of. Feel free to e-mail me off-list if you have questions. I'll do my best to answer them. Or, post on the list your specific problem and you will be flooded with excellent how-to's. That's what all this is for! Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "kevin lane" <n3773(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: low time O-320
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Air Planes Services performs a lot of Cessna upgrades. Darrin Jacobs told me he has a low time O-320-E2d in stock. I believe him to be an honest guy running a first class operation. Try WWW.AIRPLAINS.COM or aps(at)airplains.com kevin 6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
I aggree. You get what you paid for. But you can buy good quality tools at reasonable prices. I bought a Ryobi bench mount drill press for $90. They make 2 different models and I got the better one on sale. It has 5 speeds and is very well built. Go to your Home Depots, Manards, Northern Hydraulic ect. they have good sales. Go to auctions, personal actions, estate auctions ect. some of the best tools are found here. Old craftsman power tools the ones made in the 50s or 60s can be some of the best buys. People just need to spend some time looking. Do buy quality tools but that doesnt mean you need a $400 drill press. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Doug Gray <doug.gray(at)hlos.com.au>
Subject: Edge Distance
> A hole of X diameter needs > 2X material remaining between the hole and the closest edge. Minimun edge distance (2 x rivet dia) is measured from the centre of the hole. Refer fig 4-2 on p 28 of the referenced book. Doug Gray RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Rudder leading edge
Listers, How far do you "twist" the leading edges of the rudder skin with the pipe when closing it? I got mine closed up OK, but everytime I walk by the thing in my garage while working on the elevators I can't help but be unhappy with the way it turned out. Before I closed the LE the rudder was textbook. You could literally straight-edge the thing from the spar to the beginning of the TE radius and it was darn near perfect. Now, after closing the LE, the skin looks stressed in the spar area and it bulges very slightly just aft of the spar. The bulge is slightly more pronounced between the stiffeners. My thinking is that I didn't twist the skin enough before clecoing them together and riveting, and now the LE skins are "levering" the skin out aft of the spar. Anyone else have this? I guess what I'm asking is if I drill out those pop-rivets (not a big deal), can I expect to improve on this? Or is this just the way they are? I'd estimate the bulge to be appx. 1/16" or so (haven't measured it - was too upset about it at the time). Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Instrument panel - F603
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Listers, I'm currently working on the F621s and will be starting on the canopy deck in a couple of days, I guess. Because I have the tip up, I see there is to be a 1/4" lower height for the panel than for the sub panel that supports it. I also see that the sub panel has the canopy seal. Does the instrument panel top edge touch the canopy when it's down and locked? I'll be using a straight edge from the firewall back to the instrument panel to check my trim curve against the sub panel's curve; but, I want to be sure there is nothing else hidden that can bite me. I plan to leave about 1/4" per side at the longeron, based upon my current knowledge of what needs to be done. Correct me if I'm wrong. I did discover that the distance I have from side to side is slightly wider than plan; but, I was able to pull that in slightly to make it correct. The F621s do take a bit of fussing to make a good fit. Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: "robert l. wadsworth" <110014.1237(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Orndorff
Mr. Orndorff, A little too fast on the delete button. Can you send me your phone number. In regards to RV building class. Where are the classes located. Thanks again. Future RV6 pilot Robert Wadsworth ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred <Mlfred(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Setrab oil cooler...?
<< What about the Setrab oil cooler? Does anyone have any experience with it. Is it any good? Is it safe to use on an aircraft? >> >> I use one of these on my Rocket. A 19 row model keeps that 540 cool in all ops, except a hard climb to 10000 MSL with 100F on the ground. It reaches about 225F (still not too bad), and cools quickly to 185F at cruise. This unit costs about $75. A good deal, I'd say. My supplier seems to have closed. If anyone knows of another source, please let me know! Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Denny Harjehausen <harje(at)proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Instrument panel - F603
Jim, I am just now get ready to put the canopy on. My frame is in place. I went with the plans as far as sub-panel & instrument panel height above the longerons. I used 5 or 6 long angles clamped to the firewall and sub-panel to get the alignment of the pre formed canopy front frame. I then adjusted the side rails to be parallel with the level portion of the longerons. I ended up with almost 3/8" gap in that area. The rear tube of the pre-formed of the frame is a little less then a 1/4" above the instrument panel. Using a straight edge from firewall to the rear of the instrument glare shield it is straight. The 3/8" gap seems excessive to me, but try as I did, that was as best as I could get it. Have a Great Day! denny-->> RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Builder's tools
Jerry Isler wrote: > on mine stuck and caused the motor to release all of the smoke contained > inside. Note: All electrical components contain smoke waiting to be > released. Of course the warranty was up and a replacement motor of better What a hoot, I've laughed so hard I've got tears rolling down my cheeks Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder leading edge
Dont worry too much about it, the elevator, rudder leading edges are hidden and mostly out of sight after the piece is assembled, just do it as the plans indicate. -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Randy Lervold <RLervold(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Which pitot?
Listers: About to start on my -8 wings and am making the decisions on all the accessories such as the pitot tube. I have the brochure on the Gretz heated pitot system. Look's pretty nice, much better than the funky looking stock one. Any recommendations? Is the built-in static source a good idea? Thanks, Randy Lervold -8 #80500, elevators it with the throttle butterfly adjustment screw but I know there is also adjustments you make with the idle mixture. I think 800-850 is just about right. Any faster and it will increase your landing distance as you will be getting pulled down the runway by the idle speed. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instrument panel - F603
Date: Jan 24, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com> Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 6:04 AM Subject: RV-List: Instrument panel - F603 > >Listers, > >I'm currently working on the F621s and will be starting on the canopy >deck in a couple of days, I guess. Because I have the tip up, I see >there is to be a 1/4" lower height for the panel than for the sub panel >that supports it. I also see that the sub panel has the canopy seal. >Does the instrument panel top edge touch the canopy when it's down >and locked? I'll be using a straight edge from the firewall back to the >instrument panel to check my trim curve against the sub panel's curve; >but, I want to be sure there is nothing else hidden that can bite me. I >plan to leave about 1/4" per side at the longeron, based upon my >current knowledge of what needs to be done. Correct me if I'm wrong. >I did discover that the distance I have from side to side is slightly wider >than plan; but, I was able to pull that in slightly to make it correct. The >F621s do take a bit of fussing to make a good fit. > >Jim Sears >RV-6A #22220 > Jim, I am just a few hours ahead of you! Some tips on the tip-up initial work: 1) Get the Will Cretsinger tip-up canopy procedure from his list posting and use it-- it is excellent! 2) The F603 instrument panel needs to be at least 3/8 below the projected top surface of the firewall/subpanel flanges. The plans say 1/4 but the INSTRUCTIONS (Van's and Will's) say 1/4 to 3/8 and the 3/8 is preferred. I made mine 7/16 to avoid the hinge hitting the F603. This is a common problem I have been told by local builders. 3) Make sure the F688 is flat and rigid before drilling the F603. I riveted the two halves together and Clecoed on the drip strip angle to stiffen it. 4) Don't worry about getting the notch in the F603 perfect. Later you can flush rivet (with little NAS 1097 3/32s) a neat frame of 0.032 stock around it. 5) Don't forget to mount the cabin frame (roll bar) about 1/8 higher than plans. You want the canopy to be high in the rear and low in the front to obtain the best forward view over the cowl. Dennis Persyk 6A Instrument Panel Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb <Kerrjb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Idle Speed(p.207 in 16 yr RVator)
Idle speed should be 550-650 with a metal prop. With a low inertia wood prop, the speed will probably have to be 700-750 to get a smooth idle. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Rt Angle Oil Filter Adapter
Just added a new page to our website featuring neat stuff from other suppliers. First item to show is the new right angle oil filter adapter from B&C for Lycoming engines. If interested, check out the following link: <http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/others.html> Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Luker, Michael G." <luker.michael(at)mayo.edu>
Subject: Liability
Date: Jan 24, 1998
I know it's a liitle after the discussion but, I recently read an article on the RV list that caught my eye. The article was in reference to the gentlemen that wanted to sell his RV6A. Apparently there is another gentlemen that prepared a document for the sale of his airplane, and Mr. Woodard offered to revise it some if it was provided. Well I'm interested in this completed form, because I built and fly my own RV6A and have had some thoughts of selling it and building another. If you ever do revise this form could you please send me a copy? In addition, on the subject of liability. If I transfer all of my assets i.e.: house, cash, cars etc., into my wives name, and remove my name, would those assets be protected in lieu of a liability lawsuit? Thanks Sincerely Michael G Luker. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed
mikel(at)dimensional.com wrote: > > I think 800-850 is just about right. Any faster and it will increase your > landing distance as you will be getting pulled down the runway by the idle > speed. > > Michael > I have only taxied my plane 3 times but I find that at 800 RPM'S I'm riding the brakes to keep from going to fast. I think I will seek professional assistance in setting the idle mixture/ idle speed. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Which pitot?
From: gretz-aero(at)Juno.com (Warren Gretz)
You wrote: Is the static source at the pitot tube a good idea? The main difference is that it is very easy to run both static and dynamic tubes to the same location in the wing and thus avoid the need to run a line in the rear fuselage, divide the line, and put static ports on both sides of the fuselage. Also, by having the static source at the pitot tube, you have a HEATED static source. The static source at the pitot is just as accurate as the other method too. In fact, the pitot tube with the static source (AN5814) is a better match to the RV. This pitot tube (AN5814) is longer than the heated pitot tube with only the dynamic source (AN5812) and the extra length of the AN5814 makes the location of the entrance to the dynamic source an almost exact match to where Van's little bent tube would be if you were to install it. I am sure Van has researched the location and found this spot to be the best. The AN5814 looks good installed on the RV. If you decide you still want the pitot tube without the static source (AN5812) I can provide one of these also, just contact me at the address below. Either pitot tube will fit into my mounting bracket, but the mounting screw holes are different for the two different pitot tubes. I need to know at the time of your order which pitot you will be using to make sure you receive the right hole size in the bracket. My mounting bracket kits have everything you will need to install the mounting bracket onto your RV. The kits come with complete instructions and photos of the stages of installation of the kit. The kits are very easy to install and there is little problem of messing up the installation. The mounting brackets are available in a chrome finish to match the pitot tubes, but I also have paintable brackets if this is what you prefer. Contact me for a flyer on my products. These products include: -Pitot tube mounting bracket kits -Pitot tubes AN5814 (with static source) -Pitot tubes AN5812 -ToolKey -Other products soon, stay tuned! Gretz Aero Warren Gretz 3664 E. Lake Dr. Littleton, CO 80121 (303)770-3811 evening and weekends gretz-aero(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97 <Rvator97(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Subject: first run - the story continues
Now that the oil flow problem has been solved,( I removed the sump and extracted the "plug") I was puzzled re: another discovery. As stated earlier, the motor only ran for about 20 seconds. It was running pretty rough and and spewing black smoke. I removed the spark plug from the front right cylinder and it was very dirty, covered with black "soot", real thick! The front left cylinder was in similar condition. However the rear two plugs appear to be new and still very clean. I'm wondering if it was running on only the foward two cylinders, and if so, where would be the first place to look for a reason for this? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, Walt RV-6A 0-320 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jan 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Which pitot?
Unsolicited endorsement: Warren Gretz's pitot mounting bracket is well made, and Warren provides outstanding customer support. I'm pleased with the unit I bought from him. Tim Lewis ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Lewis N47TD (reserved) RV-6AQ #60023 Springfield VA http://home.earthlink.net/~timrv6a timrv6a(at)iname.com Boycot Advanta National Bank: http://members.aol.com/BadAdvanta ---------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rudder leading edge
Date: Jan 24, 1998
>Listers, > >How far do you "twist" the leading edges of the rudder skin with the pipe >when closing it? I got mine closed up OK, but everytime I walk by the thing >in my garage while working on the elevators I can't help but be unhappy with >the way it turned out. Before I closed the LE the rudder was textbook. You >could literally straight-edge the thing from the spar to the beginning of >the TE radius and it was darn near perfect. Now, after closing the LE, the >skin looks stressed in the spar area and it bulges very slightly just aft of >the spar. The bulge is slightly more pronounced between the stiffeners. My >thinking is that I didn't twist the skin enough before clecoing them >together and riveting, and now the LE skins are "levering" the skin out aft >of the spar. Anyone else have this? I guess what I'm asking is if I drill >out those pop-rivets (not a big deal), can I expect to improve on this? Or >is this just the way they are? I'd estimate the bulge to be appx. 1/16" or >so (haven't measured it - was too upset about it at the time). >Jon Elford >RV6 #25201 >Right Elevator Jon, When I rolled the leading edge, I tried to keep pulling the broomstick..which was attached with MANY layers of duct tape towards myself, or, up and into the skin so the radius of the bend is just that..a RADIUS...not a crease along the leading edge spar. When it was all done, the skins had a somewhat over-radiused appearance..but when the rivets were installed, the skins laid down very nicely and there was no indication of "levering" along the spar edge. How is the skin behaving along the rivet line? Is there any "puckering" between the pop rivets? I also found that near the bottom of the rudder, since the spar is so much wider down there, the raduis is going to be rather large..i.e., the bend of the skin over the spar edge is more noticeable. I also did not rivet the skins immediately after rolling them. I clecoed them, and left it overnight. When I came back the next day, I removed the clecos, and noticed if the skin had changed it's "temper"..(trying to spring itself back or not). I also used the edge rolling tool to dress down the overlapping edge and the skins are nice and tight. Keep in mind, I'm building a -8...(does the -6 have thinner skins on the rudder?) One more point, I found an extra set of hands to be HUGELY beneficial! And used lots of duct tape...really secured the skin to the dowel along the whole length so the applied rolling force was evenly distributed along the skin. Hang in there, and I'm SURE it's not as bad as you think! Enjoy.. Brian Denk -8 #379 flaps and skinning wings ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: first run - the story continues
It was running pretty rough and and >spewing black smoke. I removed the spark plug from the front right cylinder >and it was very dirty, covered with black "soot", real thick! The front left >cylinder was in similar condition. However the rear two plugs appear to be new >and still very clean. I'm wondering if it was running on only the foward two >cylinders, and if so, where would be the first place to look for a reason for >this? Any ideas would be appreciated. >Thanks, Walt RV-6A 0-320 There are probably several possible scenarios which could lead to running on 2 cylinders and running very rich. Considering the bone head mistake of plugging the oil pickup line that was made by your "overhauler" where should we start? #1 Pull all 4 top plugs and do a compression test to see if you have fairly even compression. Don't worry too much about the exact numbers just yet, we only want to see that all the cylinders are sealing equally. #2 Look over the intake system very carefully. Leaks can cause extreme mixture imbalances. Since you had to take the intake system off to remove your sump to fix the other problem, *YOU* are the person in charge of getting the intake installed correctly, even if they did it wrong the first time. #3 If #1 above doesn't come out even, then you wnat to try and determine if the leak is around the valves or past the piston/rings. If around the valves, then the valve clearance becomes an issue. The dry tappet clearance on your Lycoming is on the order of 0.080". This is measured at the valve to rocker arm contact point with the lifter collapsed. (Now that it has been run, it may require pulling a rocker, pushrod and lifter in order to bleed down the lifter.) Since you didn't get OP, it might not require any disassembly... Anyway Lycoming makes pushrods in several lengths to adjust the distance as needed for tolerance build up. If leak was around the piston and was large enough to influence compression, then you'll be pulling the engine off and taking it back where you got it. If all of above is OK, then its on to the carburetor and ignition. Give some more deatils to enlighten us. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Idle Speed
<34CA995A.777F(at)worldnet.att.net>
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 24, 1998
> >I have only taxied my plane 3 times but I find that at 800 RPM'S I'm >riding the brakes to keep from going to fast. I think I will seek >professional assistance in setting the idle mixture/ idle speed. > >Craig Hiers >RV-4 N143CH > > > Craig, I assume you are using a fixed pitch prop. When that is the case you do need to have the idle set as low as it will idle at smoothly to help reduce thrust at idle for the reason you mentioned above. The higher the idle speed the more effect idle thrust has on your power off angle of decent and the ease which you have in slowing it down through the round out and flair without having excess float. From my experiences with fixed pitch wood props on RV's it is usually difficult to get it much slower than 700 RPM (haven't seen a big difference with or without the landol weights, but it varies slightly from airplane to airplane. Try to shoot for 700. If it will run slower than that and be smooth see if you can get it to 650 RPM. As for the mixture adjustment... you are looking for about a 50 to 100 RPM rise when you pull to idle cutoff (one smooth movement taking about 1to 2 seconds). This is more difficult to detect without the flywheel effect of a metal prop. The check has to be done after the engine is totally warmed up to standard operating temp and idling at the proper RPM. There is some interaction and required readjustment when changing the idle speed or the mixture so you have to juggle back and forth with both until it idles smoothly at the speed you want, and gives you the proper RPM rise when pulling to cutoff. A good ballpark starting point is for the idle mix screw out about 1 1/2 turns from all the way in (the idle mix. screw is on the upper rear of the carb.). If their is no RPM drop at cut off the mixture is already too lean (screwed too far in) unless it is excessively rich then you may also see no drop. Try messing around with it a little. You can't hurt anything. BTW a lot of different things can have an effect on how slow and how smoothly the engine will idle (mag timing. mag. internal timing and condition, spark plug condition and gap, etc.) Hope this is of some help. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Louis Willig" <larywil(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Rocky Mountain Instruments
Date: Jan 24, 1998
I am designing a new panel for an RV-4. My goal is simplicity, reliability, and readability. I am making an effort to place a slimline com(Apollo SL 40)and a transponder on the panel. There will be an ASI, Altimeter, VSI, Turn Coordinator, and vertical card compass. No horizon or heading gyros will be used. Most switches and breakers will also be on the lower level of the panel. This leaves room for an RMI MicroMonitor to give me the remaining critical info. I have never before been willing to believe that a single box could or should be used for a half dozen or more measurements. But... it is the perfect solution if it is reliable and easily readable. With several years of RV'ers using the RMI units, would those of you who have them please share your experiences? In detail. Good points and bad points. Thanks. Louis Willig larywil(at)home.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Will Cretsinger <cretsinger(at)startext.net>
Subject: Re: Setrab oil cooler...?
Mlfred wrote: What about the Setrab oil cooler? Does anyone have any experience with > it. Is it any good? Is it safe to use on an aircraft? >> > >> > I use one of these on my Rocket. A 19 row model keeps that 540 cool in all > ops, except a hard climb to 10000 MSL with 100F on the ground. It reaches > about 225F (still not too bad), and cools quickly to 185F at cruise. > > This unit costs about $75. A good deal, I'd say. > > My supplier seems to have closed. If anyone knows of another source, please > let me know! I have just received my Setrab oil cooler from TMR, Inc., 2346 Pacific Street, Orange CA 92865, (714) 771-1348, FAX (714) 771-1737. Looks beautiful! Will Cretsinger, Arlington, TX -6A Now working cowl and hope my 2.25" (PVC pipe) spacers properly position the spinner backplate for the Sensenich metal prop...don't want to buy another cowl after this one's trimmed!? > > Check six! > Mark > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: Bob Haan <bobh(at)cdac.com>
Subject: Back Riveting Apparatus
Several people asked me to elaborate regarding the large back riveting jig for wing top skins mentioned in an e-mail regarding building both wings at one time. See quoted text below. I was on vacation which explains the late response. >"4. I borrowed a 16 lb counter balanced back-riveting jig used on the top skins. By doing both wings at the same time, I only had to get and return this large apparatus once." > This apparatus is a 16 pound steel bucking bar about 3 X 3 X 12 inches that is balanced by a 16 pound counter weight. The 3 X 3 end is polished. The long axis of the bucking bar hangs on a rope in a horizontal orientation so that the 3 X 3 end can be centered on the rivet to be set. This rope runs up from the center of the bucking bar through an overhead pulley, through a second overhead pulley and then down to the counter weight. The two overhead pulleys are attached to a car that travels below an overhead rail that runs the length of the wings. The rope, pulleys and counter weight allow the bucking bar to be positioned on the wing top skin vertically. The traveling car allows the bucking bar to be positioned on the wing top skin horizontally. I nailed two horizontal 2X4s to the outsides of the vertical 4X4s of the wing jigs about 7 feet up. I placed the rail the car with the pulleys travels on on top of these 2X4s and clamped it in place so that the bucking bar swung and traveled just in front of the top skin. My wife positioned the counter balanced bucking bar and I back riveted. The unusual weight and size of this bucking bar gave excellent results. Several builders in Portland have used this back riveting setup. Bob Haan bobh(at)cdac.com Portland, OR 503-579-2729 RV6A 24461 Fuse out of jig, working on forward deck ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 1998
From: BStobbe <coro_01(at)weblabs.com>
Subject: tip up canopy instructions
I believe that someone recently mentioned that Will Cretsinger had produced some step-by-step instructions for the tip-up canopy. If this is true, where can one go to get a copy? Bruce Stobbe RV-6 mtg emp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: Re: Liability
<< If I transfer all of my assets i.e.: house, cash, cars etc., into my wives name, and remove my name, would those assets be protected in lieu of a liability lawsuit? >> Maybe, but you will likely be poor if your wife sells the house while you're at work and runs off with the pool boy. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Liability
Vanremog wrote: > > > > << If I transfer all of my assets > i.e.: house, cash, cars etc., into my wives name, and remove my name, > would those assets be protected in lieu of a liability lawsuit? >> > > Maybe, but you will likely be poor if your wife sells the house while you're > at work and runs off with the pool boy. > > -GV > > I'ld like to meet you some day...Yor a piece of work. Don - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Wheaton <dwheaton(at)csi.com>
Subject: Re: I'm not flying.... (was Builder's tools
Date: Jan 25, 1998
I want to second Don's comment below. I was very concerned about rivet quality when I started. I decided to check out some production birds to see how their rivet jobs looked. I was amazed! The shop heads on all of the aircraft I looked at varied considerably. I estimated that 10 to 20 percent of the shop heads were out of spec. I have even toured the Raytheon assembly line and have video and pictures to show the work. In my work, if a rivet is out-of-spec, I redo it. I haven't changed my standards based on what I've seen. I am much more relaxed in driving rivets now and consequently do a much better job than when I began. David Wheaton Rv6 VS and Control Surfaces -----Original Message----- From: Don Mack [SMTP:donmack(at)allways.net] Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 6:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I'm not flying.... (was Builder's tools > >Bob Busick wrote: > >>I won't fly in a certain homebuilt built with a certain type of tool > >My mother said: > >"I won't fly in any airplane, even a Boeing!" > >I understand them both. We each have our own standards. > >hal Next time you get on one of those big birds. Take a look at the rivets. You will be amazed. Don Mack RV-6a fuse http://www.flash.net/~donmack ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lothar Klingmuller <lothark(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: ?8Q? 6A? 3? 6? 8? 4???
Date: Jan 25, 1998
LISTERS! Please, please don,t forget to place the MODEL NO in the SUBJECT line if the specific subject relates to a specific model. Searching archive files and even loocking at the in mail will be much easier! This message is sent in appreciation for Matt's fine work. Safe and happy landings -ALWAYS! Lothar Denver, CO |drywalling new PILOTSHED ~carriagehouse)||Ready to jig|| loocking for fuselage 6/6A|| ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau <MLaboyteau(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Instruments
<< With several years of RV'ers using the RMI units, would those of you who have them please share your experiences? In detail. Good points and bad points. Thanks. Louis Willig larywil(at)home.com >> Louis, I don't have my -6a flying yet, but I do have the micromonitor. Your right, it saves a lot of space. The only thing that I worry about, is if it goes out, my aircraft is out of commision untill it's repaired. Other than that, so far I'm happy with it. I purged all of the air out of my oil system this weekend, and spun the engine over with the starter. While spinning the engine, the display went nuts on the monitor. When I disengaged the starter, the display looked ok, but the manifold pressure indication was locked at 9 in. I had to turn the unit off and back on to reset it. I've got to talk to RMI to see if this is common. Mark LaBoyteaux MLaboyteau(at)aol.com RV-6A N106RV s/n22960 http://members.aol.com/mlaboyteau/home.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Lead times
I ordered my RV-8 wing kit on 5 Jan. I was told the lead times were still running around 10 weeks. I planned this so that I would recieve my wings about the time the NY weather warmed up (I have an unheated shop). This week I got a notice from Van's that my kit is scheduled to be ready fro packing the week of 13 Apr. This is more on the order of 14 weeks. Looks like I'll lose a couple weeks of good building weather. Plan accordingly! Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 tail complete, waiting (impatiantly) for wings and warmer waether ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - the story continues
From: rvpilot(at)Juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Walt, Based on the theory of always checking the easy things first, I would look first at the plug wires to be sure they are correctly routed. Regards, Bill RV4 N66WD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
<< The dry tappet clearance on your Lycoming is on the order of 0.080". >> This may sound like a dumb question (actually, I've never worked on a Lycoming so it's an ignorant question which is a correctable malady), but do you really mean eighty thousandths? I have worked on a lot of pushrod engines such as Norton, Triumph, Harley and I've never seen anything anywhere near that! Maybe 0.012 but 0.080? Did you transpose the last zero and and the eight, i.e., 0.008"? Bob Fritz tail's done and start 6QB next month ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance 2
<< Anyway Lycoming makes pushrods in several lengths to adjust the distance as needed for tolerance build up. >> Sorry this question wasn't included in the previous mail. As I stated previously, I've never worked on a Lycoming...so........Do you mean to tell me that there's no adjustment at the rocker arm other than to install a different length pushrod? Concurrently, am I to believe that the manufacturing inconsistences at Lycoming are so great that not even a screw adjuster on the rocker arm, or where ever, can take it up? I'm either grossly misunderstanding something (which I hope) or Lycoming hasn't discovered micrometers, never mind Total Quality Control (TQC) methodology. Bob Fritz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Dennis Fuhr <jfuhr(at)monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: QA Issue - AKA rivet spacing
Gil, Just checked out your website. Getting ready to start on the empennage of a 6A and your mil-spec looks extremely useful. Thanks to you and Brian for making it available. Dennis Fuhr Gil Alexander wrote: > > > *** good chart snipped *** > > > >Note that the edge distance is not a function of material thickness; it's > >related to the diameter of the hole being drilled. A hole of X diameter > needs > >2X material remaining between the hole and the closest edge. > > Bob .. back to school ...:^) > > The 2x dimension is from the CENTER of the hole. So it's actually 1.5x > remaining material. > > > > >Similarly, the rivet pitch, that is to say, the distance from the center of > >one rivet to the next is again a function of the rivet size. The center of a > >rivet of X diameter should be 1.5X away from the center of the next rivet. > > Same sort of math error. The chart gave it as 3x, again it's measured > from rivet center to center. > > In actual fact, these edge distances are slightky affected by > countersinking and dimpling, and the EXACT edge distances that Van uses for > his strength calculations are at the Mil-Spec on my web site: > > http://www.flash.net/~gila > > However, the minimum pitch you quoted seems almost like a "tear along > the dotted line" instruction ...:^) It is different (by quite a large > amount) for c/s and dimpled rivets - see Table VI on the Spec. above. The > pitch you mentioned would fall under the following quote: > > "Lesser minimum spacings require government design activity approval unless > otherwise indicated on the drawing" > > I wouldn't put a row of structural rivets at the 3x pitch UNLESS that > was actually called out for in Vans drawings. > > Gil (it's all been documented) Alexander > > > > >Hmmmmm. Guess that's why the funny fractions....makes 'em easy to calculate. > >Metric woulda been easier still, though. > > > >If you go to Reid Hillview early enough to catch 'em before they close, the > >flight shop next to the EAA meeting hanger carries this tome for about $18. > >At least I assume they do....I got mine at San Carlos and I know that RH > has a > >better bookshop. > > > >See you there. > > > >Bob Fritz > > > > ------------------------------------ > RV6A, #20701, finishing kit > "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list > mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Re: Lead times
Scott, It seems to me that if you had ordered and paid for your wing kit say 4 months (16 weeks) in advance and told them when you wanted it to be delivered I think you may have gotten it right on schedule. In other words order it way way ahead and tell them that you want it at a certain date. (Further into the future than the current lead times.) I think the factory can fit it in their shipping schedule to get it out to you that way and they can plan better too. Maybe Scott McDaniels can shed some light on this strategy. Al > >I ordered my RV-8 wing kit on 5 Jan. I was told the lead times were still >running around 10 weeks. I planned this so that I would recieve my wings >about the time the NY weather warmed up (I have an unheated shop). This >week I got a notice from Van's that my kit is scheduled to be ready fro >packing the week of 13 Apr. This is more on the order of 14 weeks. Looks >like I'll lose a couple weeks of good building weather. > >Plan accordingly! > >Scott A. Jordan >-8 #331 >tail complete, waiting (impatiantly) for wings and warmer waether ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)Juno.com
Subject: Which pitot?
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Tim: How is the tube constructed? Van's is a bent Al tubing. Is warren's a pitot tube likes on a banaza or the plate type on a piper? I have already mounted the hardware for the factory tube. Is it to late to use Warren's? Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com engine did you start with (dash #) & why did you have to find another sump? Were there other modifications you had to do? Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com 60 on a new engine? > then the valve clearance becomes an issue. The dry tappet >clearance on your Lycoming is on the order of 0.080". After oil has entered the lifters, What should the tappet gap be? Is it so close that it can't be mesured without the lifters compressed? Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Instruments
There will be an ASI, > Altimeter, VSI, Turn Coordinator, and vertical card compass. No horizon > or heading gyros will be used. Good luck mounting the vertical card compass IN the panel. They won't generally work in such a mounting. They are more prone to vibration than a whiskey compass, and will buzz and spin wildly (360 deg sometimes) if not isolated from ALL vibration. I only know this cause I tried mounting one (a PAI) in a panel. I found out why they sell mounts that are specifically designed for these compasses, which are very soft and allow the compass to 'float' on a a very supple cushion. I tried everything (rubber grommets -you name it) and finally pulled it out of the panel and bought a mount for use above the panel -now it works fine. BTW, my prop/engine had been dynamically balanced. Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JimNolan" <JimNolan(at)kconline.com>
Subject: Sell Engine
Date: Jan 25, 1998
RV listers, A friend of mine has a 0-470 for sale. I don't know if it can be used in a Rocket or not but here is the information. 0-470-R-4 230 hp 1480 SMOH 2662 TT All accessories (less exhaust) Still in 182 Cessna ( he's still flying the plane every week) Come fly before you buy. Asking $6250.00 OBO Carey Sloan 219-858-9776 219-269-1337 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Jeremy William Benedict <jbenedic(at)up.edu>
Subject: Re: RV Photo Album
It's another call for RV photos... I "just" discovered a way for your airplane to be the prestigious "RV of the Week" on the official Van's Aircraft web site (and it doesn't involve large cash bribes -- although, hmmmmmm, that would work also). So if you want so show off your pride and joy to tens of thousands of people, just send a picture (minimum 500x300 pixels BMP/TIFF preferred) to rvweek(at)vansaircraft.com But hurry, the next available slot is May 5, 1998, and submissions are cataloged on a first-come first-serve basis. Of course, I should say that I'm not trying to compete with Sam's web site, but the response to his request seems to be working great. (And if you haven't seen his web site, go! It's great!). Thanks, Jeremy jbenedic(at)up.edu STD-DIS.: I am not employed by Van's Aircraft, Inc., nor do I speak for them in any way or matter any attorney could possibly conceive of. > ALSO.....several RV pilots have submitted photos and write-ups to the RV > Photo Album. We are off to a great start toward having the best > collection of RV photos on the web. However, we still need YOUR photos! > To see how the Photo Album is developing, start at my home page and > navigate to RV Photo Album: > > http://www.ath.tis.net/~sbuc/rv6/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
><> ^^^^^^^^^^ >This may sound like a dumb question (actually, I've never worked on a Lycoming >so it's an ignorant question which is a correctable malady), but do you really >mean eighty thousandths? >Bob Fritz Note my emphasis above. DRY tappet clearance. The O-320 and above Lycosuarus have hydraulic lifters with no adjustment at the rocker arm, so Lycoming provides alternate pushrods to adjust the clearance. Once the tappet is pressurised, there will be *NO* clearance, as the oil in the hydraulic lifter will take up the slack. On O-235 lycomings the solid lifter clearance is on the order of 0.010", so you're right on track thinking that eighty thousandths is too much (if the larger Lycs were solid tappet). My point earlier was that because of things like recessed valve seats and overly ground valves, remachined cases (which lower the "deck height" of the cylinder mounting pads), etc. that the wrong pushrods might be in the engine, even if they were the "right" ones when it came apart. The only way to tell is to check the dry tappet clearance if you suspect the valves aren't closing well. One additional possibility if the engine in question ran rough and on (presumably) 2 cylinders is the priming system might be partially inoperative, allowing 1 or more cylinders to be very rich while the remaining cylinder(s) were lean. This would be consistant with a 20 second run in which 2 cylinders had carbon covered plugs (extra rich) while 2 had clean dry plugs (too lean?). I hope we get more information as the troubleshooting continues. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: first run - the story continues
>>#1 Pull all 4 top plugs and do a compression test to see if you have >>fairly even compression. Don't worry too much about the exact numbers >>just yet, we only want to see that all the cylinders are sealing equally. >What would be the start procedure ? Get oil Pressure & run 1000-1200 >until CHTs are 300 F & stop & look for leaks in oil system? At this point >if everthing is OK., What would a compression show? Even and 30, 50 or >even 60 on a new engine? If the engines starts and runs normally at low speed (1,000-1,200 seems fine) then one likely wouldn't need to do the tests outlined before. They were based on the information given which said the engine ran rough and 2 plugs looked carbon coated. *IF* the engine runs smoothly, then perhaps no troubleshooting is needed. The intent of the equal compression readings was to see if the valves were closing completely, or if possibly the tappet clearance was too small and the valves (either intake or exhaust) were not seating tightly on all 4 cylinders. The "correct" number on the compression tester is relative to what this particular engine's history is. Since it is a new engine OH, we have no history to go by. Sure, you'd like it to be 78/80 on all cylinders but in the real world I see engines that run hundreds of hours and consistantly have compressions in the 60-70 range at every check. Is this bad? No, but it is consistant for that particular engine, and shows that wear and tolerances are about the same on all the cylinders, which is really the goal. >> then the valve clearance becomes an issue. The dry tappet >>clearance on your Lycoming is on the order of 0.080". >After oil has entered the lifters, What should the tappet gap be? Is it >so close that it can't be mesured without the lifters compressed? >Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx There shouldn't be *ANY* clearance once the hydraulic lifter fills with oil. The leakdown of the lifter and the tension of the valve spring reach equilibrium when the valve seats and the spring tension is totally exerted on the valve stem. The lifter leaks the oil necessary to allow the valve to touch the seat, and then effectively stops (no more pressure is exerted to collapse it). This is the function of the hydraulic lifter, to reduce valve lash to zero, yet allow the valve to close completely. Lycoming only gives a "Dry Tappet Clearance" in the OH manual, there is no procedure to "measure" the non-existant clearance at the valve tip after the lifter is filled. If you (or any of the rest of the RV list) are interested in learning more about the Lycoming lifter and its possible relationship to the exhaust valve problems encountered by many users, there is an excellent reference on the Web at: http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Marvel/tbo3.html I recommend it highly to any person interested in how their engine works. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: RV-4 First Flight
From: "Mike Kukulski" <kukulski(at)highfiber.com>
After almost exactly 9 years and 2913 logged hours of construction, I flew my RV-4, N96MK (note the optimistic tail number) for its first flight yesterday, 24 Jan 98, from Double Eagle II Airport in Albuquerque, NM. Aircraft moved from the garage/shop to the airport on 10 Jan, final assembly led to weight & balance on 19 Jan, and DAR sign-off obtained on 20 Jan. Conducted 4 engine runs and 2 taxi tests prior to the first flight. Warmed up on 18 Jan with about 6 landings in a Citabria, and on 24 Jan got in 3 patterns in the RV-4 belonging to my hangar partner, Dan Boudro. Flight went well, with all engine parameters nominal, rigging and trim all good. Only had two problems: (1) I had set my engine idle to about 850 rpm following my ground engine runs due to the original rough idle at about 550 rpm. This 850 rpm ground idle was too high, making the airplane very hard to slow down on final. (2) The second problem was my inability inflight to latch my manual flaps at the full down position, requiring 1/2 flaps on approach and landing. This lack of extra drag did not help problem #1. Ended up going around on the first two landing attempts due to the fast final (with Dan on the radio reminding me as I blazed over the fence that this aircraft is not a jet). Pulling idle at the perch, I still was indicating about 85-90 KIAS on final (stall series at altitude had indicated 51 KIAS clean, 48 KIAS at half flaps). On the third attempt I just drug in the final, slipped it a bit to increase the drag, and then flew it down to the runway, touching down about 2500 feet down our 7000 foot runway. Ground handling was excellent, best taildragger I've ever flown. Flew again later on Saturday after adjusting the idle back down to 550 rpm; fast final problem solved. Very comfortable 65 KIAS finals and smooth engine operation. Just can't idle smoothly on the ground at 550; so I stay at Lycoming's recommended 1000-1200 rpm. Got the flaps down once at altitude, and on one pattern, but still not satisfactory - removed the flap handle after the second flight and twisted it as Van recommends to counter its natural twisting under air loads. Couldn't test it today due to high winds. Incidently, yesterday's weather in Albuquerque was the best in about 2 months - no wind and temperature about 53 degrees F. Don't have a lot of other numbers yet, but I still had about 800 fpm climb at my 10000 ft MSL level off, and I limited my airspeed to 130 KIAS - got this with about 2520 rpm at 10000' MSL. No airspeed calibrations yet, so nothing concrete yet. Aircraft details: Day/night deluxe VFR (attitudeindicator), manual flaps & trim, new O-320-D1A from Van's, Aymar-Demuth 68-75 wood propeller, RMI Encoder and Monitor, Bendix King KLX-135 GPS/COM and KT-76A transponder. Empty weight (no fuel, 8 qts oil) was 996 lbs and CG at 69.9 inches. This flying part is a whole lot better than the building part! Mike Kukulski RV-4 N96MK Albuquerque, NM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Isler" <jlisler(at)surfsouth.com>
Subject: Re: first run - the story continues
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Not knowing the history of your engine, i.e. was the crankcase repaired / line bored or was the cam shaft reground and lifters resurfaced or if your primer system feeds the back two cylinders, it will be hard to draw conclusions as to whether or not your valve train is operating properly. I do not think that 20 seconds of run time is enough for anyone to look at spark plugs and say that you have a problem. The last Lycoming engine I saw started up after an overhaul (in an RV4) was so overprimed / flooded that fuel was pouring out of the carburetor onto the ground. When this engine finally started (after much cranking and nearly killing the battery) it shook, popped and smoked for several seconds before settling down. IMO and if it were mine, I would double check the basic installation (especially after pulling the sump) to look for obvious problems. If I was satisfied that the oil pressure problem was fixed and that everything else was OK, I would fire that baby up and see what happens. You may like the results . Jerry Isler RV4 #1070 Donalsonville, Ga. ---------- Walt wrote, > Now that the oil flow problem has been solved,( I removed the sump and > extracted the "plug") I was puzzled re: another discovery. As stated earlier, > the motor only ran for about 20 seconds. It was running pretty rough and and > spewing black smoke. I removed the spark plug from the front right cylinder > and it was very dirty, covered with black "soot", real thick! The front left > cylinder was in similar condition. However the rear two plugs appear to be new > and still very clean. I'm wondering if it was running on only the foward two > cylinders, and if so, where would be the first place to look for a reason for > this? Any ideas would be appreciated. > > Thanks, Walt RV-6A 0-320 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: John Kitz <jkitz(at)greenapple.com>
Subject: Scotch Bright polishing wheels
I know that most of you builders use Scotch Bright polishing wheels for the fastest smooth edges possible, but the 6 inch wheels wear out fast. I have for sale 12 inch diameter wheels with a 3 inch width that last a whole lot longer. The only catch is the bore is 5 inches and you need some machining capabilities to mount them on a motor shaft. They are 35$ plus freight. Contact me off list. Thanks. John kitz N721JK Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 25, 1998
>><0.080". >> > ^^^^^^^^^^ >>This may sound like a dumb question (actually, I've never worked on a >Lycoming >>so it's an ignorant question which is a correctable malady), but do >you >really >>mean eighty thousandths? > >>Bob Fritz > Actually on a new or overhauled lycoming I think the dry tappet clearance is more likely to be .050 to .060. The maximum allowed is .085 (don't remember what the minimum is) And yes you do use different length push rods to adjust. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV-4 First Flight
Date: Jan 25, 1998
>After almost exactly 9 years and 2913 logged hours of construction, I fle= >w >my RV-4, N96MK (note the optimistic tail number) for its first flight >yesterday, 24 Jan 98, from Double Eagle II Airport in Albuquerque, NM. >Aircraft moved from the garage/shop to the airport on 10 Jan, final assem= >bly >led to weight & balance on 19 Jan, and DAR sign-off obtained on 20 Jan. >Conducted 4 engine runs and 2 taxi tests prior to the first flight. Warme= >d >up on 18 Jan with about 6 landings in a Citabria, and on 24 Jan got in 3 >patterns in the RV-4 belonging to my hangar partner, Dan Boudro. >Flight went well, with all engine parameters nominal, rigging and trim al= >l >good. Only had two problems: (1) I had set my engine idle to about 850 r= >pm >following my ground engine runs due to the original rough idle at about 5= >50 >rpm. This 850 rpm ground idle was too high, making the airplane very har= >d >to slow down on final. (2) The second problem was my inability inflight = >to >latch my manual flaps at the full down position, requiring 1/2 flaps on >approach and landing. This lack of extra drag did not help problem #1. =20 >Ended up going around on the first two landing attempts due to the fast >final (with Dan on the radio reminding me as I blazed over the fence that >this aircraft is not a jet). Pulling idle at the perch, I still was >indicating about 85-90 KIAS on final (stall series at altitude had indica= >ted >51 KIAS clean, 48 KIAS at half flaps). On the third attempt I just drug i= >n >the final, slipped it a bit to increase the drag, and then flew it down t= >o >the runway, touching down about 2500 feet down our 7000 foot runway. Grou= >nd >handling was excellent, best taildragger I've ever flown. >Flew again later on Saturday after adjusting the idle back down to 550 rp= >m; >fast final problem solved. Very comfortable 65 KIAS finals and smooth eng= >ine >operation. Just can't idle smoothly on the ground at 550; so I stay at >Lycoming's recommended 1000-1200 rpm. =20 >Got the flaps down once at altitude, and on one pattern, but still not >satisfactory - removed the flap handle after the second flight and twiste= >d >it as Van recommends to counter its natural twisting under air loads. >Couldn't test it today due to high winds. Incidently, yesterday's weather= > in >Albuquerque was the best in about 2 months - no wind and temperature abou= >t >53 degrees F. >Don't have a lot of other numbers yet, but I still had about 800 fpm clim= >b >at my 10000 ft MSL level off, and I limited my airspeed to 130 KIAS - got >this with about 2520 rpm at 10000' MSL. No airspeed calibrations yet, so >nothing concrete yet. =20 >Aircraft details: Day/night deluxe VFR (attitudeindicator), manual flaps = >& >trim, new O-320-D1A from Van's, Aymar-Demuth 68-75 wood propeller, RMI >=B5Encoder and =B5Monitor, Bendix King KLX-135 GPS/COM and KT-76A transpo= >nder. >Empty weight (no fuel, 8 qts oil) was 996 lbs and CG at 69.9 inches. >This flying part is a whole lot better than the building part! > >Mike Kukulski >RV-4 N96MK >Albuquerque, NM Mike, WAY TO GO PARDNER!!!! Another RV graces the skies of the Land of Enchantment. And, how ironic in that I, too, was out beating up the pattern in a Citabria on Friday afternoon! (Bob Bogan's plane at Coronado). The next two RV's to fly in Albuquerque should be Pat Kirkpatrick's -6A and My -8! Now that you're airborne...I could use a bucking bar driver. :) ENJOY your new toy!! Brian Denk -8 wings and stuff ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Slipped the Surly Bonds of Earth
It is my great pleasure to announce that RV6A, N66CR, (Miss Chiquita) slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced on laughter-silvered wings. First flight occurred at approximately 1:00 pm sunday. After an engine pre-heat and brief run up and taxi the throttle was advanced and the aircraft was flying before the throttle was fully open. The first hour was spend at 75% power as per the engine manual with a careful eye on the CHT. After landing the aircraft was given a complete look over and no abnormalities were found so another hour was spent among the clouds. Little attention was paid to max airspeeds etc. most of the time was spend developing a feel for the handling and precision of this amazing machine and monitoring engine operating parameters. Van has indeed crafted a remarkable aircraft. The aircraft flew hands off and required very little elevator trim from full throttle flight to landing flare. Both RMI units performed just as they were designed and the Performance 71x76 cruise prop showed absolutely no vibration or out of balance indications. I would like to thank the staff at Vans and all of you all out there in cyberland who have had a hand in this project for helping make it possible. Miss Chiquita can be seen on our home page. -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97 <Rvator97(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 25, 1998
Subject: oil pressure problem solved:happy ending!
Thanks to everyone for the responses re: my first run problems. After removing the sump, removing the "plug", re-installing all the goodies, the engine started right up today and ran beautifully. Got about 60psi within 5-10 seconds; ran smoothly for about 45 seconds, then I turned on the lightspeed CDI system and the rpms jumped about 100 immediatley. (Engine ran even smoother too). After 3 minutes at 1600 the #3 cht was 300 f. Let it cool down and did it again. Everything looks GREAT! Call the DAR tomorrow... weight and balance next weekend ...Feb. 4, I am scheduled to fly with Mike Seager..... MIGHT be flying by mid Feb.!! Walt RV-6A #21611 0-320 160hp Sensenich F/P (Started 4/92) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: first run - valve clearance
>Actually on a new or overhauled lycoming I think the dry tappet >clearance is more likely to be .050 to .060. >The maximum allowed is .085 (don't remember what the minimum is) > >And yes you do use different length push rods to adjust. > > >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. >These opinions and ideas are my own >and do not necessarily reflect the opinions >of my employer. I'm certainly no Lycoming expert (yet), but I think Scott is talking about the amount of preload on the hydraulic tappets, not the amount of actual valve lash. When the tappets are completely bottomed out (ie. hydraulic piston all the way down in the bore), there should be .080" between the valve tip and rocker arm tip. This will, of course, be taken up when the tappets receive oil pressure and bleed out. This spec. allows the tappets a range of adjustment, both tighter and looser, while the engine is running to compensate for temperature changes and eventually valve-train wear. I may be all washed up on this, but this is my understanding of Scott's post. I do have my asbestos shorts on, so flame away if I'm wrong!! Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Rodney Coston <cozmos9(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-4 First Flight
>>This flying part is a whole lot better than the building part! >> >>Mike Kukulski >>RV-4 N96MK >>Albuquerque, NM > Congratulations Mike !!! Rod Coston in Lubbock, preparing garage and waiting on tax return to order. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: dimples or dimple tape
There is a man in New Orleans (Sam Steele, I believe) who patented some dimple tape for the leading edges of airplanes. He put it on his -4 and claims a pick up of 8 mph. His friend with another plane claims he picked up 10 mph. I thinkthere was an article in sport aviation a while back concerning this. Does any one on the list know much about this stuff? I guess I could just drop by and talk to him myself. It is one of those things that sounds almost too good to be true. I saw it myself on 2 rv-4's a few months ago, but didn't ask any questions then. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1998
From: Charlie Kuss <charliekuss(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
Qmax LLC wrote: > << The dry tappet clearance on your Lycoming is on the order of 0.080". >> Bob, Since you like to play with Nortons and Triumphs, I'll answer your question. Yes, the DRY clearance is about .080" (the range is .065 to .100" or thereabouts) Lycomings are hydraulic lifter engines. When running, the lifter maintains zero lash. The dry clearance refers to how far the lifter piston is from the bottom of the bore housing with no oil in it. The lifter piston has a range of travel in the lifter bore. This range is defined by the bottom of the bore and the snap ring that retains the piston in the lifter housing. Generally the dry clearance aims to keep the piston in the middle of it's range of travel. If it gets to close to the bottom limit, the valve may float; to near the top and it may idle erraticly. If it reaches the top limit, the valve loses it's zero lash and starts to clack. If you are familiar with Buick big block V-8s of the 60s, the Lycoming is similar. Adjustment of dry clearance is done on both with over/under sized pushrods. Yeah, I rebuilt the engine on my 1967 Buick GS 400. That job taught me not to hammer a high mileage engine when the engine and oil were cold. :-) > This may sound like a dumb question (actually, I've never worked on a Lycoming > so it's an ignorant question which is a correctable malady), but do you really > mean eighty thousandths? I have worked on a lot of pushrod engines such as > Norton, Triumph, Harley and I've never seen anything anywhere near that! > Maybe 0.012 but 0.080? Those are all solid lifter engines. By the way, if you ever need them, I have every Triumph and Norton special tool known to man. I used to own a motorcycle repair shop. I hope this clears things up. Charlie Kuss RV-8 elevators, wings being crated tomorrow Boca Raton, Fl. machine countersunk, which is a no-no. So, once again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. The point I was trying to make was that inexperienced builders should try to find people who have expertise in their area of interest. Don't automatically assume that just because someone has a "degree" or certificate that they are experts. The same cautions can be applied in many areas besides aircraft construction. Bob Skinner RV-6 390 hr. Buffalo, WY bskinr(at)trib.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W B Ward <WBWard(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: I'm not flying.... (was Builder's tools
<> You are a very intelligent and concientious individual, who is to be congratulated for doing excellent work. Your life depends on it. Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Slipped the Surly Bonds of Earth
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 26, 1998
writes: > >It is my great pleasure to announce that RV6A, N66CR, (Miss Chiquita) >slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced on laughter-silvered >wings. >First flight occurred at approximately 1:00 pm sunday >Chet Razer >razer(at)midwest.net >http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ > > > > Congratulations Chet. You have now joined the ranks of builders that also know what that wonderful feeling is like. Did you like myself and many others get that overwhelming feeling, about 5 minutes into the flight, "WOW I'm really flying this thing that I built!" Make sure you call someone at the office and give them all the details. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lead times
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 26, 1998
>It seems to me that if you had ordered and paid for your wing kit say >4 >months (16 weeks) in advance and told them when you wanted it to be >delivered I think you may have gotten it right on schedule. In other >words >order it way way ahead and tell them that you want it at a certain >date. >(Further into the future than the current lead times.) I think the >factory >can fit it in their shipping schedule to get it out to you that way >and >they can plan better too. Maybe Scott McDaniels can shed some light on >this >strategy. Al > > I don't work in the office, but I believe that this is possible. Barb would be the one to talk to I think if anyone else would be interested. >> >>I ordered my RV-8 wing kit on 5 Jan. I was told the lead times were >still >>running around 10 weeks. I planned this so that I would recieve my >wings >>about the time the NY weather warmed up (I have an unheated shop). >This >>week I got a notice from Van's that my kit is scheduled to be ready >fro >>packing the week of 13 Apr. This is more on the order of 14 weeks. >Looks >>like I'll lose a couple weeks of good building weather. >> >>Plan accordingly! >> >>Scott A. Jordan Scott, As I mentioned above I don't work in the office so I don't know the specifics of what happened, but I have a guess. As you mentioned, the lead times were running "about" 10 weeks which in it self allows for a little variation. And I believe they tell everyone that they are still estimates. I think what probably happened though is that you ordered right after the first of the year (just about right when the latest RVator came out announcing the 1998 price increases). As mentioned in the news letter, any kit paid in full before the first of the year would ship at the 1997 price. Every year they get a flood of orders just before the first from people hoping to beat the increase. I am guessing that happened this year and at the time that you placed your order they hadn't yet scheduled out the production for RV-8 wing kits so they wouldn't have known that the info they gave you was incorrect. A lot of our customers don't know, but we don't have all of the kits for all of the models in production at the same time. They are rotated in batches of 50 so, depending on the number of orders coming in. So often that is part of what the lead time wait is for, the next production run. Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll bet you could find something to work on though. Like finishing the fiberglass emp tips that everyone seems to want to put off till later :) Hope this maybe partially explains what may have caused the problem. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WBWard(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem solved:happy ending!
<< Walt >> Fantastic!! Regards Wendell WBWard(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Orndorff G <OrndorffG(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Orndorff
Robert, 817-439-3280....Thanks George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Lead times
>Every year they get a flood of orders just before the first from people hoping to beat the increase. I am guessing that happened this year and at the time that you placed your order they hadn't yet scheduled out the production for RV-8 wing kits so they wouldn't have known that the info they gave you was incorrect.< Scott, I'll keep this in mind when I'm getting ready for the fuselage (end of this year?) >A lot of our customers don't know, but we don't have all of the kits for all of the models in production at the same time. They are rotated in batches of 50 so, depending on the number of orders coming in. So often that is part of what the lead time wait is for, the next production run. Sorry for the inconvenience< Having worked in a factory in a previous life I was aware this could happen. I was simply practicing "just in time inventory" and as sometimes happens, it wasn't "just in time". I have no complaint with Van's over this. Van, being the conservative business man that he is, probably controls his inventory in a similar manner. I have not lost sight of the fact that Van's conservative business policies and the way he and everyone at Van's treats the customers are what allows me to afford to build an airplane, keeps him in business (even if not make him rich) and keeps you employed. >. I'll bet you could find something to work on though. Like finishing the fiberglass emp tips that everyone seems towant to put off till later :) Been there, done that! Some of it twice! I've been spending the winter helping a new friend with his -6 fuselage. Learning, enjoying the work and company, now have a riveting partner for my wings! It may be may imagination but a thing a say a smile when he learned that he would have another month before I had my own project to distract me. Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 Tail complete, waiting (impatiently) for wings and warmer weather in NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Cowl installation
Date: Jan 26, 1998
---------- > From: Will Cretsinger <cretsinger(at)startext.net> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Setrab oil cooler...? > Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 10:12 PM > > > Mlfred wrote: > I'm also working on the cowling installation: 1. Are you using the hinge arrangement to attach the cowling or something else? (CamLock fasteners? Nut plates?) 2. If you're using the hinge, what method will you use to safety them? 3. Are you running the hinge pin thrugh the firewall? Thanks, Bob > -6A Now working cowl and hope my 2.25" (PVC pipe) spacers properly > position the spinner backplate for the Sensenich metal prop...don't want > to buy another cowl after this one's trimmed!? > > > > Check six! > > Mark > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Lead times
>It's cold in Oregon too, you know?< Wendell, I do know cold, I have lived in both Dakotas. NY is moderate compared to the Great White North but to make a long story short, I'm working in an uninsulated wod tool shed. Kerosene heaters have little effect. Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 Tail complete, waiting (impatiently) for wings and warmer weather in NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Todd Webb <toddwe(at)MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Quick Question on HS ...
Date: Jan 26, 1998
I don't have the part number with me but I am just starting on my HS and the one of the parts that the instructions say to sand down to finish equivalent to 400 grit sandpaper appears to have stress cracks in it. It has very small cracks in it every 16th of an inch or so the full length of it. Only one of the two parts has these cracks and I haven't been able to sand them enoogh to make them go away. Should I just keep sanding until they go away, or should this part be replaced. Thanks, Todd Webb RV-8 Starting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: Alan Carroll <carroll(at)geology.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Which pitot?
>The main difference is that it is very easy to run both static and >dynamic tubes to the same location in the wing and thus avoid the need to >run a line in the rear fuselage, divide the line, and put static ports on >both sides of the fuselage. Do RV's commonly use two static ports, or just one? Alan Carroll RV-8 #80177 (Wings) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mick_G" <micky_g(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Slipped the Surly Bonds of Earth
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Congratulations, this monitor of this list is jealous! Mick -----Original Message----- From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net> Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 7:38 PM Subject: RV-List: Slipped the Surly Bonds of Earth > >It is my great pleasure to announce that RV6A, N66CR, (Miss Chiquita) >slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced on laughter-silvered wings. >First flight occurred at approximately 1:00 pm sunday. After an engine >pre-heat and brief run up and taxi the throttle was advanced and the >aircraft was flying before the throttle was fully open. The first hour >was spend at 75% power as per the engine manual with a careful eye on >the CHT. After landing the aircraft was given a complete look over and >no abnormalities were found so another hour was spent among the clouds. >Little attention was paid to max airspeeds etc. most of the time was >spend developing a feel for the handling and precision of this amazing >machine and monitoring engine operating parameters. Van has indeed >crafted a remarkable aircraft. The aircraft flew hands off and required >very little elevator trim from full throttle flight to landing flare. >Both RMI units performed just as they were designed and the Performance >71x76 cruise prop showed absolutely no vibration or out of balance >indications. > >I would like to thank the staff at Vans and all of you all out there in >cyberland who have had a hand in this project for helping make it >possible. > >Miss Chiquita can be seen on our home page. >-- >Abby Razer >Barbara Razer >Molly the Dog and >Chet Razer >razer(at)midwest.net >http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Battery-Start Questions
This weekend after purging all of the air out of the oil system, I tried spinning the engine over to check for oil pressure. It only takes about 3-5 seconds to indicate about 35 psi oil pressure. Here's the problem: while spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What I found was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts measured at the battery. This value stays constant while starting for 8-10 seconds. Even after trying it several times, the battery open load voltage reads 12.6 volts, and while starting drops to 8.8. So the problem isn't with the micromonitor, it's the low bus voltage while starting. I've got a new Sky-tec starter, and a new RG-25XC battery from Van's. I built a battery charger that's regulated to 14.1 volts. After charging the battery untill the charge voltage is 14.1 volts and current drops to 750 ma, I figure that the battery should be fully charged. I can either install the optional back-up battery for the micromonitor to power it during start-up, or just leave it off untill the engine fires up. What I need to know, is maybe something wrong with the battery? I thought that the recombinant gas batteries were supposed to be able to really deliver a lot of cranking power. Hmmmm. Mark LaBoyteaux MLaboyteau(at)aol.com RV-6A N106RV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us>
Subject: Rt Angle Oil Filter Adapter
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Bob and others, Will this oil filter adapter fit under the cowl of RV- 6? It looks from the photos like it may protrude upward too far. Ken Harrill RV - 6, fuselage Just added a new page to our website featuring neat stuff from other suppliers. First item to show is the new right angle oil filter adapter from B&C for Lycoming engines. If interested, check out the following link: <http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/others.html> Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: wayne bonesteel <wayneb(at)oakweb.com>
Subject: QA Issue
Richard TREANOR wrote: > > 1) Now that I know the edge distance requirements for .032 aluminum > what is the requirement for 1/8" angle stock? Seems like it should be > less, but don't know. > > 2) Any publications where I can reference these kinds of questions? > > Rich Treanor > Sunnyvale > Richard go to Gil Alexanders web page <http://www.flash.net/~gila>. this is a good web site and has a copy of MIL-R-47196A Military specification you can down load or print. Wayne Bonesteel fitting rv-4 fuselage bulkheads, hard to measure. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: George McNutt <GMcNutt(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Quick Question on HS ...
<> Hi Todd You are probably working on the HS-609PP HS spar web and you may run into this problem again with the webs for the main wing spars. I would suggest that you mount a scotchbright wheel on a drill press and polish one or two of the marks out with the scotchbright wheel. Start at the outboard end of the 609PP and hold the material at 45 degrees to the wheel edge (corner). You will probably find that what initially looks like cracks is actually scratches gouged into the material, probably from material handling, cutting, storing etc. I found a lot of these scratches and small pits on my wing spar webs and spent almost a week polishing them all out, many were 2 to 3 thousands of a inch deep. The scratches in the bar stock material has been my only complaint with the kit thus far. George McNutt 6A - Wings Langley, B.C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Quick Question on HS ...
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Having the part number would be crucial in "Really" helping you, but I didn't have any stress cracks every 1/16th of an inch in any of the components on mine HS. When you are sanding remember you have to finish with 400 grit, but you don't have to start with 400 grit. On some things I started with (80 or 120 as I recall to take the band saw marks off and then switched over to 400. I would likely still be on my HS if I tried to sand some of the tooling marks I put in some of the components. If it's bad you will have to talk to Vans' anyway, to get a replacement. Why not give them a call. Gary Fesenbek RV6A, Finally on the fuselage!!! Roanoke, VA -----Original Message----- From: Todd Webb [SMTP:toddwe(at)MICROSOFT.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:33 AM To: 'rvlist(at)matronics.com' Cc: 'support(at)vansaircraft.com' Subject: RV-List: Quick Question on HS ... I don't have the part number with me but I am just starting on my HS and the one of the parts that the instructions say to sand down to finish equivalent to 400 grit sandpaper appears to have stress cracks in it. It has very small cracks in it every 16th of an inch or so the full length of it. Only one of the two parts has these cracks and I haven't been able to sand them enoogh to make them go away. Should I just keep sanding until they go away, or should this part be replaced. Thanks, Todd Webb RV-8 Starting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
From: rvpilot(at)Juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Jon, As long as we are on this thread, I would like to add that the "dry" tappet clearence specified by Lycoming in the overhaul manual is .028" to .080". Anywhere in this range is OK. If it does not fall within this range, then another push rod of different length must be tried. I believe that there are four different lengths available. Hope this helps. Bill, RV4, N66WD, A&P _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: RV-4 First Flight
From: rvpilot(at)Juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Mike, Congratulations on your first flight! The 4 is a great airplane isn't it? The only feature that I ever thought was lacking was the manual flap mechanism. Twisting the handle will work for awhile but eventually it will need twisting again. You will probably want to retrofit to the Electric flap option eventually as I did. Works great and has the added advantage of not interfering with the passengers left foot (and vice -versa) Many happy hours. Bill, RV4's N17WD & N66WD _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: QA Issue
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Richard go to Gil Alexanders web page <http://www.flash.net/~gila>. this is a good web site and has a copy of MIL-R-47196A Military specification you can down load or print. As mil specs go that one is pretty readable. There is also a pub from vans called "Standard Aircraft Handbook" or something like that as I recall. I find it somewhat useful, and the EAA has a book or two available but I don't refer to them so much so I don't recall the names. You don't have to belong to the EAA to purchase books from them. Good luck! Gary Fesenbek Roanoke, VA RV6AQ Fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WBrooks001(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: need SK 52 and SK 53 sketches
I am building an RV-6A (pre-prepunched skins) and have misplaced sketches SK- 52 and SK-53 (re. flap and aileron construction). Van's say that these sketches are not part of the current manual, and they have not retained a copy of their old manuals, so cannot help. I would be grateful if someone who has a manual with these 2 sketches would fax a copy of the two sketches to me. (fax no. 613 788 2247, attn: Nancy Brooks). Please let the list know if you can send these, so not more than one person responds. Thanks in advance. Bill Brooks 691 Island park Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
I live in the Minneapolis area and work in a 2 car uninsulated carage. I purchases a 70,000 to 250,000 btu propane heater (very portable). This heater when on high can take the garage temp from 15 F to 75 to 80 in about 30 min. i leave it on for about 1 hour to heat garage floor. Then every half hour I run it for about 10 min. to maintain temp. Works real well in keeping garage at a workable level, I do open a window when operating heater, you do need ventalation. The real problem is condensation on tools in garage and in tool cabinet. To handle tool cabinet problem I installed a heating pad in bottom of tool cabinet and tool chest. After each work session I cover tools cabinet with a blanket. This keeps tools warm enough to prevent condensation. Anyone with other ideas please respond. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: C&F Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Fuel Tank Sealant Info
For those of you using the tank sealant that Vans now ships, here is more information than you may ever want to know. After reading the note from Wayne Bonesteel about fuel tank sealant made by Advanced Chemistry & Technology, Inc., I called Nick Champlin at the company to learn more (us engineers are ever curious). He gave me permission to forward the following info regarding the Thiokol MC-236 B-2 Fuel Tank Sealant: The material is made to pass Mil-S-8802 specification which among other things requires a hard cure time of 40 hours maximum. (This stuff is used on the Stealth Bomber (B2) fuel tanks). Over time (Years) the cure time may be longer, HOWEVER, the mechanical properties (read 'strength') do NOT change. Working temperature affects the cure time also. For example, the rule of thumb is that if the working temperature is 90 deg. F, (70 degrees being nominal) the cure time can be 1/2 of the 40 hour spec., conversely, if the working temperature is 50 degrees F, then the cure time can be 2X the 40 hour spec. Storage temperature affects the nominal 40 hour cure time, that is, it will extend slightly with time if stored at room temp. If the material is stored in a freezer or refrigerator, the added cure time will be small. They had some material returned to them that had been on the shelf for several years and the user had lost the accelerator and wanted to know if they had accelerator that would work with the old stuff. They mixed up a batch using the accelerator that matched the batch number, and they detected no change in the mechanical stability or strength of the cured material. The older Proseal had some additives in it which did affect the mechanical properties over time, in addition, it would skin over in the can because of these additives. By the way, Nick Champlin used to work for the company that made(makes) Proseal. The above info comes with no written or implied guarantee by myself or Nick, however, after 25 years in the business he knows what he is talking about. Seal on! Fred Hiatt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Your message reflects my ideas/sentiments exactly. I will be ordering an RV6a kit very soon. Just ordered the plans last week. We may be able to help each other out.... -----Original Message----- From: Jack K. Holley <jkholley(at)earthlink.net> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 1:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: First Flight > >Congratulations to all who had their first flights today. I have been >"lurking" on this list for about a week. > >I am not building yet. I had been evaluating several homebuilt models since >Oskosh and have decided that there is no better airplane than an RV. My >wife and kids require that I build a -6 (no back seat drivers), so I will be >ordering a -6 kit as soon as I can take care of business matters. > >I look forward to hearing the tips, trials, etc. but especially the flights >(first and continuing) of completed RVs. Helps keep the dream alive! > > >Jack K. Holley >jkholley(at)earthlink.net > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: Will Cretsinger <cretsinger(at)startext.net>
Subject: Cowl cutout for O-320-H2AD Fuel Pump
How large a hole must I cut in my upper cowl to accommodate the fuel pump of my O-320-H2AD engine? I currently have a cover plate where the pump will be located. I have not yet done any trimming...aft edge of cowl is sitting on top of the forward fuselage skin...front is being supported by the fuel pump cover plate and the nose is about 3/8" higher than the spinner backplate. Where is the best place to get the fuel pump? Will Cretsinger Arlington, TX -6A Cowling Puzzle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: "Capt Brian J. Mork, 333-6044" <MorkBJ.DFC.USAFA(at)usafa.af.mil>
Subject: dimples or dimple tape
You wrote: >There is a man in New Orleans (Sam Steele, I believe) who >patented some dimple tape for the leading edges of airplanes. He >put it on his -4 and claims a pick up of 8 mph. His friend with >another plane claims he picked up 10 mph. I thinkthere was an >article in sport aviation a while back concerning this. January 1998 Sport Aviation. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355 <JNice51355(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Lead times
<< Having worked in a factory in a previous life I was aware this could happen. I was simply practicing "just in time inventory" and as sometimes happens, it wasn't "just in time". >> You mean, "Just In Time To Be Late!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net>
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
I leave mine off when starting, after the engine fires a flip of the switch and the monitor is up and running in plenty of time to shut down the engine if there is an oil pressure problem. MLaboyteau(at)aol.com wrote: > > This weekend after purging all of the air out of the oil system, I tried > spinning the engine over to check for oil pressure. It only takes about 3-5 > seconds to indicate about 35 psi oil pressure. Here's the problem: while > spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What I found > was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts measured at > the battery. This value stays constant while starting for 8-10 seconds. Even > after trying it several times, the battery open load voltage reads 12.6 volts, > and while starting drops to 8.8. So the problem isn't with the micromonitor, > it's the low bus voltage while starting. > > I've got a new Sky-tec starter, and a new RG-25XC battery from Van's. I built > a battery charger that's regulated to 14.1 volts. After charging the battery > untill the charge voltage is 14.1 volts and current drops to 750 ma, I figure > that the battery should be fully charged. I can either install the optional > back-up battery for the micromonitor to power it during start-up, or just > leave it off untill the engine fires up. What I need to know, is maybe > something wrong with the battery? I thought that the recombinant gas batteries > were supposed to be able to really deliver a lot of cranking power. Hmmmm. > -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HillJW <HillJW(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Sealant Info
Could you give us the phone no. or e-mail address of Acvanced Chemistry and Technology? (the sealant supplier you mentioned) thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: John Bright <john.bright(at)bigfoot.com>
Subject: Quick Question on HS ...
.com> Todd: I agree with Gary... the "cracks" are probably maching marks from an end mill. Gary wrote: >When you are sanding remember you have to >finish with 400 grit, but you don't have to start with 400 grit. On >some things I started with 80 or 120 as I recall to take the band saw >marks off and then switched over to 400. John Bright Newport News, VA H:757-886-1161 W:757-875-7324 john.bright(at)bigfoot.com RV-6/6A empennage 25088 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: RV-Bookstore Catalogs
From: fitton(at)Juno.com (Robert D Fitton)
>RVation Bookstore (and videos) catalogs are now available. >To get your FREE catalog, please just write back with your mailing >address. >Andy Gold >RV-6A N-5060 flying Please send a copy of the catalog to me at the address below. Robert Fitton 9037 Starmount Drive Las Vegas, NV 89134 (702) 255-1820 Voice (702) 255-2163 FAX fitton(at)vegas.infi.net Thank you. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: dimples or dimple tape
<< There is a man in New Orleans (Sam Steele, I believe) who patented some dimple tape for the leading edges of airplanes. He put it on his -4 and claims a pick up of 8 mph. His friend with another plane claims he picked up 10 mph. I thinkthere was an article in sport aviation a while back concerning this. Does any one on the list know much about this stuff? I guess I could just drop by and talk to him myself. It is one of those things that sounds almost too good to be true. I saw it myself on 2 rv-4's a few months ago, but didn't ask any questions then. >> Good article in the current Sport Aviation and lotsa info from any bunch of sailplaners..they've been using them for years. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
<< no Lycoming expert (yet), but I think Scott is talking about the amount of preload on the hydraulic tappets, not the amount of actual valve lash. When the tappets are completely bottomed out (ie. hydraulic piston all the way down in the bore), there should be .080" between the valve tip and rocker arm tip. This will, of course, be taken up when the tappets receive oil pressure and bleed out. This spec. allows the tappets a range of adjustment, both tighter and looser, while the engine is running to compensate for temperature changes and eventually valve-train wear. >> Yeeshhhh!!! Let's see if I got this right....It's got hydraulic lifters, that, when pressurized by the oil, can take up 0.080" of slack and that's still not enough to compensate for manufacturing variation? Temp. change and valve wear shouldn't be more that 0.010" (that's a guess but I can calculate it if you insist) so the other 0.070" must come from tool wear, operator hang-over, zero control between parts suppliers, etc. ad infinitum. Man-o-man this is scarier than I thought! And no, I'm not trying to start a flame-out by comparing car engines to Lycoming. I'm looking at late 20th century manufacturing techniques and that's all. I don't want to hear a thousand valid excuses about economy of scale, regulation woes, etc. Those are the reasons for the situation and ought to be addressed. But the bottom line is reliability in the air, followed by cost or performance...installers choice. And before you jump all over me with stories of Lycoming reliability just ask yourself how much reliability would you get from ANY product where the buyer was required, by law, to pay for the manufacturers screw-up? puff,puff, pant, wheeze, vent.....Ommmmmmmmmm:-) Bob. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Qmax LLC <QmaxLLC(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: first run - valve clearance
<< If you are familiar with Buick big block V-8s of the 60s, the Lycoming is similar. Adjustment of dry clearance is done on both with over/under sized pushrods. Yeah, I rebuilt the engine on my 1967 Buick GS 400. That job taught me not to hammer a high mileage engine when the engine and oil were cold. :-) > This may sound like a dumb question (actually, I've never worked on a Lycoming > so it's an ignorant question which is a correctable malady), but do you really > mean eighty thousandths? I have worked on a lot of pushrod engines such as > Norton, Triumph, Harley and I've never seen anything anywhere near that! > Maybe 0.012 but 0.080? Those are all solid lifter engines. By the way, if you ever need them, I have every Triumph and Norton special tool known to man. I used to own a motorcycle repair shop. I hope this clears things up. >> Hi Charlie, Nope, no 'speriance w/ big-block cars. But I've used your hammer a couple of times on Norton singles...they didn't like it either. And thanks for offer, but I sold my last Norton ES2 about a year back. Wanna go fly. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: need SK 52 and SK 53 sketches
I would be glad to send you these 2 sketches. Regard John L. Danielson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WstcttPrss <WstcttPrss(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
In a message dated 1/26/98 3:03:35 PM, you wrote: <> J. Daniel- Move to Southern California. It was just shy of 80 degrees today. My only weather related problem is a shorter window of time that I can work with the primer before it dries in the gun nozzle. Jeff Carpenter RV-6 Altadena, CA wstcttprss(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B&S Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
Date: Jan 26, 1998
---------- > > I live in the Minneapolis area and work in a 2 car uninsulated garage. ....... > The real problem is condensation on tools in garage and in tool cabinet. To > handle tool cabinet problem I installed a heating pad in bottom of tool > cabinet and tool chest. After each work session I cover tools cabinet with a > blanket. This keeps tools warm enough to prevent condensation. > Anyone with other ideas please respond. > I live in Michigan and have always used my garage quite a bit all year round. My best advise is to spend the few hours and dollars to insulate at least the ceiling. The difference will be astounding. I currently heat my insulated (wall R-11 and ceiling r-19) 16' x 20' garage/shop with 4000 watts of electric baseboard heat. I keep the temp at 50 when not in use and raise it to about 65 when I'm working. Judging from my electric bills, it's costing me around $30 - $40 a month in the dead of winter to heat it. No condensation or rust on my tools. Gas would be cheaper yet. Even stapling plastic to the ceiling joists would have a dramatic effect on an uninsulated, pitched roof garage. If you live in the woods like I do, mice can be a real problem with fiberglass insulation. They burrow into it an move it all around. Those electric mouse repellers really work wonders. Not a mouse seen in several years now. The RV project alone seems like enough to justify the money to add some insulation. When you're done, you'll have a place to comfortably work on your car/tractor/paint booth/..... in the coldest weather. Brian Eckstein 6a tanks tested, no leaks.....yes! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: C&F Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Sealant Info
The name is Nick Champlin, tel: (714) 373-2837 (ask operator to connect you to his extension) Fax: (714) 373-1913. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Quick Question on HS ...
<< I don't have the part number with me but I am just starting on my HS and the one of the parts that the instructions say to sand down to finish equivalent to 400 grit sandpaper appears to have stress cracks in it. It has very small cracks in it every 16th of an inch or so the full length of it. >> Are they really cracks? If these features are in the EXACT same position going the full length of the bar stock, they are most likely extrusion marks. They are not often very deep and the surface just needs to be sanded or scotchbrighted (can this really be a verb?) smooth. If they seem something more insidious, don't use them and call Van's, immediately. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Which pitot?
<< Do RV's commonly use two static ports, or just one? >> Deux. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: SK-52 and SK-53 sketches
I am sorry but I got booted out of AOL while I was reading and answering your need for the sketches. Because of this I need your fax number again. Sorry for any inconvenience. Regard John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: Jonh J Banks <tinmanjj(at)ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Cowl cutout for O-320-H2AD Fuel Pump
leave the cover plate on -- get two good electric pumps and forget
the engine pump
tinmanjj(at)ptd.net j.j.
Will Cretsinger wrote:
,<How large a hole must I cut in my upper cowl to accommodate pump of my O-320-H2AD engine? I currently have a cover plate

Will Cretsinger
Arlington, TX
-6A Cowling Puzzle
| Visit the Matronics & RV-List Web Sites at http://www.matronics.com
| ---
| ---
| Please aggressively ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: Rodney Coston <cozmos9(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: dimples or dimple tape
> >You wrote: > >>There is a man in New Orleans (Sam Steele, I believe) who >>patented some dimple tape for the leading edges of airplanes. He >>put it on his -4 and claims a pick up of 8 mph. His friend with >>another plane claims he picked up 10 mph. I thinkthere was an >>article in sport aviation a while back concerning this. > >January 1998 Sport Aviation. > I still cant figure where to get the stuff from the article---or am I just missing it. Rod Coston ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: Toad <toad(at)favorites.com>
Subject: Chat
Hello! It was really great to chat with a participant in the chat room who just flew his rv the first time this past sunday. The chat room is agreat way to ask him all the questions we are curious about. come join us each night at 8:00pm mst, the topic is anything ya want and it is very relaxed from the web, go to http://www.rconline.com then to java chat from there or the preffered way is to use a chat client software like mIRC or pIRCh point those to rco.iglobal.net port 6667 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97 <Rvator97(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Rt Angle Oil Filter Adapter
I have installed the oil filter adapter from b&c. It fits under the; cowl, no problem. Walt. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
> >I live in the Minneapolis area and work in a 2 car uninsulated carage. I >purchases a 70,000 to 250,000 btu propane heater (very portable). This heater >when on high can take the garage temp from 15 F to 75 to 80 in about 30 min. i >leave it on for about 1 hour to heat garage floor. Then every half hour I run >it for about 10 min. to maintain temp. Works real well in keeping garage at a >workable level, I do open a window when operating heater, you do need >ventalation. >The real problem is condensation on tools in garage and in tool cabinet. To >handle tool cabinet problem I installed a heating pad in bottom of tool >cabinet and tool chest. After each work session I cover tools cabinet with a >blanket. This keeps tools warm enough to prevent condensation. >Anyone with other ideas please respond. > Move to Arizona..... Just kidding.. :-) > > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: Quick Question on HS ...
> >I don't have the part number with me but I am just starting on my HS and the >one of the parts that the instructions say to sand down to finish equivalent >to >400 grit sandpaper appears to have stress cracks in it. It has very small >cracks >in it every 16th of an inch or so the full length of it. Only one of the >two parts >has these cracks and I haven't been able to sand them enoogh to make them >go away. > >Should I just keep sanding until they go away, or should this part be >replaced. > > >Thanks, >Todd Webb >RV-8 Starting HS > Tom, I assume you're talking about the rear spar flange strips on the HS. The reason I assume this is because my -6 pieces were the same way. I happen to have the privelege of living 5 miles from Van's Aircraft so I stopped by the prototype shop at Van's house and asked him. He and Scott McDaniels agreed that the cracks were just a surface condition and to sand them as best as I could and to be sure to remove the sharp edges from any of them. The thing to remember is that these flange strips are designed to carry a load along the edges of the strips, not on the wide flat part of them. Be sure that the sides are absolutely free of machine marks, scratches or anything other than a dull satin finish. Now, I haven't seen YOUR pieces, so I can't say that this is absolutely the case. This is only what I have seen on mine. I remember sanding and sanding to get that 400 grit satin finish and not being able to. If you think your condition may be worse, by all means call Van's and ask. Congratulations on beginning your project. Stay on the list and you'll learn ALOT!! > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Slipped the Surly Bonds of Earth
>Van has indeed >crafted a remarkable aircraft. >Abby Razer >Barbara Razer >Molly the Dog and >Chet Razer >razer(at)midwest.net >http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ No, Chet, YOU crafted it!! Van just designed it. That is your handiwork in the air! A very well deserved CONGRATULATIONS to you! Nice job!! Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Right Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jorear(at)mari.net
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Quick Question on HS ...
Regarding the "STRESS cracks" I suggest that you pass the part over your scotch brite wheel a couple of times, and then work your way down to 400 grit wet/dry paper. The similar parts on my 6A (don't quote me, but it is either 609pp or 603pp) were not the smoothest pieces of aluminum that I have seen, but with work, they look as required. Hope this helps. If you don't gain satisfaction with the scotchbrite wheel, a call to Van's would be in order. Regards, Jeff Orear 6A HS hangin' on the wall, VS close behind ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Number of static sources
From: gretz-aero(at)Juno.com (Warren Gretz)
Hello Alan and others, In response to your question about the number of static ports. There are two, one on each side of the rear fuselage and plumbed together before running to the instruments. You will still need to have a dynamic line going to the pitot tube. --- OR,-- if you have a pitot tube with a static source built into it, there is only one static line running to the pitot tube static source along with the dynamic line also running to the pitot tube. If you would like information on my pitot tube mounting bracket kits and heated pitot tubes, one with a static source (AN5814) and one without a static source (AN5812), contact me and I will mail the flyers to you. Warren Gretz Gretz Aero 3664 East Lake Drive Littleton, CO 80121 (303) 770-3811 gretz-aero(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1998
Subject: Which Pitot?
From: gretz-aero(at)Juno.com (Warren Gretz)
To Don Jordan and others, Don,I hope I can answer your question regarding how my pitot tubes are constructed. The two pitot tubes I sell are both the "L" shaped style. The AN5814 has a static source and the dynamic source. The AN5812 has only the dynamic source. The Piper blade pitot tube is another style of pitot tube, but I do not sell it. If using the AN5814, which has a static source and a longer forward facing snout than the AN5812, the entrance to the dynamic port of the pitot tube is in almost the same exact location as the entrance port for Van's bent tube. Van has obviously done some good research for the best location for accurate airspeed readings. The use of the AN5814 mimics very closely what Van had designed. The added features of this tube over Van's is: 1) its heated, 2) you only need to run a static line to the location of the pitot tube, instead of running the line to the rear of the fuselage and dividing the line and going to a port on both sides of the fuselage, 3) my system is much more streamlined and should provide less drag, 4) it looks prettier, especially if the builder selects the chrome plated bracket. Don mentioned he has already mounted the hardware for Van's factory tube and wonders if it is too late to use my system. The hole drilled through the wing skin and the rear spar flange, as indicated in Van's drawings, is unnecessary when using my system. The good part is that the hole is easily filled if already drilled. My mounting bracket mounts slightly to the rear of Van's hole location. I have had some people purchase my bracket to install on flying aircraft. It is much more work to install, but can be done. It is much easier to do at the time of construction. My mounting bracket system will mount on any of Van's aircraft including the quick build. My bracket kits contain laser cut part, are easy to install and include complete instructions, including photos, to help the builder. If you would like further information, or flyers on my products, please contact me at the address below. Warren Gretz Gretz Aero 3664 E. Lake Dr. Littleton, CO 80121 (303) 770-3811 gretz-aero(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
From: smcdaniels(at)Juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Jan 26, 1998
> > This weekend after purging all of the air out of the oil system, I >tried >spinning the engine over to check for oil pressure. It only takes >about 3-5 >seconds to indicate about 35 psi oil pressure. Here's the problem: >while >spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What >I found >was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts >measured at >the battery. This value stays constant while starting for 8-10 >seconds. I can either install the >optional >back-up battery for the micromonitor to power it during start-up, or >just >leave it off untill the engine fires up. What I need to know, is maybe >something wrong with the battery? I thought that the recombinant gas >batteries >were supposed to be able to really deliver a lot of cranking power. >Hmmmm. > >Mark LaBoyteaux >MLaboyteau(at)aol.com >RV-6A N106RV > > > Mark, The starter puts a major load on the battery and it is normal for the bus voltage to drop. I have seen this cause problems with a lot of the electronic data displays (vision micro systems, etc.) Seems to me this problem you see would give reason to why they even have a back up battery option! Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KBoatri144 <KBoatri144(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Cowl Cut-out for O-320-H2AD
Will Cretsinger wrote: >How large a hole must I cut in my upper cowl to accommodate pump >of my O-320-H2AD engine? I currently have a cover plate One answer was: >leave the cover plate on -- get two good electric pumps and forget >the engine pump DON"T do this... without gravity feed on your tanks, an electrical failure makes you a glider pilot unless you have the mechanical pump. Kyle Boatright ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gregory Young <gyoung(at)net1.net>
Subject: Navaid tidbits
Date: Jan 26, 1998
I got a flight in a RV6a last Sunday to go for a $50 BBQ (this is Texas:-). In discussion with the builder about his Navaid (among other things) I picked up two things I don't recall being addressed here before. His Navaid is driven by a Flybuddy GPS which is apparently very single-minded, i.e. if he wants to look-up database info on an airport it has to be selected, which then makes it the new destination and causes a heading change. Anyone else have experience with other GPSs that can't multi-task? Or any that do? How about the Skytracker, since I'm particularly interested in it? The other is about pitch coupling. His servo is under floor and he claims no discernable pitch coupling. He attributes it to a slotted adjustment on the mount allowing the servo pushrod to be positioned as close as possible to the aileron pushrod without interference. FWIW. Greg Young RV-6 N6GY (reserved) fuselage out of jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: "Matthew J. Shepardson" <MJShep(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Tool discounts??
Greetings: I'm still fairly new to the RV-List and was curious if anyone has looked into the possibility of negotiating tool discounts with various suppliers. For example, I just learned that the employee group at the company I work for has negotiated a 15% discount with the W. W. Grainger Company. Made the purchase of many tools much more reasonable--especially after seeing the comments about some of the troubles with lower grade tools. Any discount helps Matt Shepardson RV-6A Emp arrived last week MJShep(at)Compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au>
Subject: Hinge cracks
Hello All, I am posting this for a friend who has a problem with his hinges at the propeller surround area of his cowl. The last time he replaced these pieces of hinge (they are about 60mm long) he used extruded hinge and they still cracked on the out side of the round section. He would appreciate any ideas. Regards Les. Les Rowles Po Box 1895 Traralgon Australia 3844 lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au ________________________________________________________________________________
From: pbennett(at)zip.com.au
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Australian listers only
The latest RVator advises that a Lycoming course similar to the one run at Penn State College is to be run in Australia. I have spoken to Adrian McHardy, the Lyc rep, who needs about 15 starters to run the course. Current plan is Sydney in March - April. Email me off line if you are interested and I will advise Adrian. I don't have the cost, but expect it may vary with numbers. At this stage it's expressions of interest only. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 doing plumbing ks pretty agricultural. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 doing plumbing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Fran Malczynski <fmalczy(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
When my wife built our house (she was the general contractor) I asked to have the garage insulated (walls and ceiling) and to install a single heating duct. This keeps the garage warm enough overnight so that it requires just a moderate amount of external heating to bring it up to working temperature in the morning. Right now its 20 outside and the garage temperature varies from 48 to 53. I use an old Kerosun Omni 105 heater and a couple of chicken brooder lamps to heat it up for about an hour before I start work. This will bring it up to about 60. During the course of the day I adjust the Kerosun to keep the temp around 65 degrees. This combo keeps me working all winter long on about $6.45 worth of kerosine a week and I haven't seen any signs of condensation. I have not figured the electricity cost yet. I do have fantasies about working in an area where I have to turn on air conditioning instead of firing up a heater. Accomodating winter. Fran Malczynski RV6 Wings Olcott, NY B&S Eckstein wrote: > > > ---------- > > > > I live in the Minneapolis area and work in a 2 car uninsulated garage. > ....... > > The real problem is condensation on tools in garage and in tool cabinet. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Tool discounts??
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Avery will also give you a discount if you make a big order with them as I recall. I think it was on the order of 10% or so and as I recall you have to order more than 1 grand, which the basic RV and advanced RV kit will cover that nicely. (and then some). Good luck! Gary Fesenbek RV6AQ, Roanoke, VA Fuselage, Seat skins -----Original Message----- From: Matthew J. Shepardson [SMTP:MJShep(at)compuserve.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 12:54 AM To: RV List Subject: RV-List: Tool discounts?? Greetings: I'm still fairly new to the RV-List and was curious if anyone has looked into the possibility of negotiating tool discounts with various suppliers. For example, I just learned that the employee group at the company I work for has negotiated a 15% discount with the W. W. Grainger Company. Made the purchase of many tools much more reasonable--especially after seeing the comments about some of the troubles with lower grade tools. Any discount helps Matt Shepardson RV-6A Emp arrived last week MJShep(at)Compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Boris <smbr(at)digital.net>
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
Mark, When you pull a current through a wire (or any metal bus bar, etc.), the resitance of the wire causes a voltage drop. The higher the current, the higher the voltage drop. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William G. Knight" <airshows1(at)msn.com>
Subject: Tip-Up Canopy For Sale
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Have finished tip-up canopy and all parts for sale as I am changing recently-bought completed and flying RV-6 to slider. Package would include attached forward upper and rear upper fuselage skins and structure so buyer could simply install on his aircraft. Very fine craftsmanship. Please reply off-line. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1998
From: Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RV6A - General Engine Questions
A few firewall forward questions On a new Vans O320-D1A Is the line on top and fwd of the spin on oil filter a feed to the oil cooler? Is the position for the oil temp the large flat bolt head underneath? Where exactly are people putting the fuel overflow? What is the size of the bolts for mounting the oil cooler (Vans)? Tony B's engine book says AN3-42, but my measurements show 4-37 with allowing for 1/8 stiffening angle. Van's Alt. The pully looks drunk when you spin it. I'm sure this will scrub out the belt in no time. Any others in a similar position? Solution? The pully doesn't have a fan attached. Should I try to get one of these? Anyone with firewall fwd pictures to share? Thanks for the help Royce (not even close to finishing) Craven Melbourne Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
Fran Malczynski wrote: > This combo keeps me working all winter long on about $6.45 worth of > kerosine a week and I haven't seen any signs of condensation. I have not > figured the electricity cost yet. I do have fantasies about working in > an area where I have to turn on air conditioning instead of firing up a > heater. > > Accomodating winter. > > Fran Malczynski > RV6 Wings > Olcott, NY Be careful what you ask for, in mid july here in Florida it will be 95-100 degrees, 90% humidity. My hanger is not insulated and with the sun beating down on it I have seen the thermometer go off the scale. You can't tell if it's tears or sweat running down your face. Craig Hiers RV-4 N143CH Tallahassee,FL. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Hinge cracks
From: wstucklen1(at)Juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Les, I too had this problem on my -6A. This appears to be a high stress area. Most builders are now putting in .060" Alum T6 plates in this area, and use three #8 nutplates and screws on each side....... I've not had any problems since the replacement... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: > >Hello All, > >I am posting this for a friend who has a problem with his hinges at >the >propeller surround area of his cowl. The last time he replaced these >pieces of hinge (they are about 60mm long) he used extruded hinge and >they >still cracked on the out side of the round section. >He would appreciate any ideas. > >Regards Les. >Les Rowles >Po Box 1895 >Traralgon >Australia 3844 >lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] n't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Carroll Bird <catbird(at)taylortel.com>
Subject: Re: Rt Angle Oil Filter Adapter
Rvator97 wrote: > > > I have installed the oil filter adapter from b&c. It fits under the; cowl, no > problem. > > Walt. Walt: I too am planning to use the adapter from B&C. Could you give a little more info about this. What model AC? What engine? Which engine mount? I'm not worried about it hitting the cowling, but there is a diagonal brace on the O-360 dynafocal mount for the RV-4 at the top of the mount that looks it might be a little close. Thanks Carroll Bird, RV-4 #3919 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
From: wstucklen1(at)Juno.com (Frederic W Stucklen)
Listers, During the lull between the tailkit and wings (four months) a friend advised me to spend the time working on winterizing my garage. I insulated the walls and ceiling, and installed electrical outlets, then sheetrocked the whole thing. The neighbor next door was just replacing his forced hot air furnace which he gladly gave to me, including an 275 gal oil tank. I mounted the tank onto concrete pillars outside, fabricated a plentum for the top of the furnace, and put it into a fire protected ceiling/corner. I put 1" styrofoam on the rollup doors (2) with slots for the hinge areas, and rubber seals on the door edges. I use one tank of oil per season and it's always warm (55 min) in the garage, and it heats up in minutes to 80 degrees. With shop lights overhead (plugged into switched outlets in the ceiling) it's always light enough. Makes a great place to build airplanes, and I can still get a car in anytime... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on 2'd RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com writes: > >When my wife built our house (she was the general contractor) I asked to >have the garage insulated (walls and ceiling) and to install a single >heating duct. This keeps the garage warm enough overnight so that it >requires just a moderate amount of external heating to bring it up to >working temperature in the morning. > >Right now its 20 outside and the garage temperature varies from 48 to >53. I use an old Kerosun Omni 105 heater and a couple of chicken brooder >lamps to heat it up for about an hour before I start work. This will >bring it up to about 60. During the course of the day I adjust the >Kerosun to keep the temp around 65 degrees. > >This combo keeps me working all winter long on about $6.45 worth of >kerosine a week and I haven't seen any signs of condensation. I have not >figured the electricity cost yet. I do have fantasies about working in >an area where I have to turn on air conditioning instead of firing up a >heater. > >Accomodating winter. > >Fran Malczynski >RV6 Wings >Olcott, NY > >B&S Eckstein wrote: >> ><eckstein@net-link.net> >> >> ---------- >> > >> > I live in the Minneapolis area and work in a 2 car uninsulated >garage. >> ....... >> > The real problem is condensation on tools in garage and in tool >cabinet. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Navaid tidbits
Gregory Young wrote: > His Navaid is driven by a Flybuddy GPS which is apparently > very single-minded, i.e. if he wants to look-up database > info on an airport it has to be selected, which then makes > it the new destination and causes a heading change. Anyone > else have experience with other GPSs that can't multi-task? > Or any that do? On my Skyforce Skymap II you just move the cursor to any airport (or VOR, NDB, etc) and hit the "More Info" button. It gives you the info page without interupting the flight plan. From there you can select "Go to" if you want to go there, or "Escape" to go back to the original map or nav screen. Bob Reiff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1998
From: Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
Mark, sounds like you have a few too many milliohms in either the ground path from the battery to the starter or the power feed to same. Voltage = Ohms x Current (roughly 200 at startup) Voltage 14.1 - 8.8 = 5.3 volts Ohms = 5.3 / 200 = 0.0265 ohms = 26.5 milliohms - doesn't take much to drop the voltage a worring amount. There will be some internal resistance in the battery - cold days are not kind, but you may be able to improve the wiring. Check for Cable - Too small a size (#2 needed - both + and ground ) Too many connections in the path (Battery ground through firewall grommet to sumpbolt - sumpbolt back to supply the rest of the aircraft ground. Batt + to starter solenoid. -through the master first if you wish- starter solenoid to starter) Poor connections. (Make sure you have cleaned the paint off the arear where the wire meets the sump and that it is clean - no oil etc on the mating surfaces.) Try to pinpoint the problem by using the milliohm meter mentioned by Bob N. in the AeroConnection document. - Ask Bob he may send you a copy - he is very generous. All the best Royce Craven >................ >spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What I found >was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts measured at >the battery. >................ >Mark LaBoyteaux ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Allen Duberstein <Allen_Duberstein(at)ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
Text item: What you are seeing is not at all abnormal. The starter will pull at least 200 amps on even a warm start. This MUST cause a significant drop in voltage across the battery. I would not place any 'sensitive' equipment on line until after the start transients and after the Alternator is placed on line. I would like to monitor engine function right from the first, I question if the instrumentation will live long when supplied from a wildly swinging bus. Electronics International has told me that their equipment will survive. I have all my gages (except the engine analyzer) wired to the primary bus. All other equipment is on the avionics bus. So far E.I. hasn't lied!!! allen > > This weekend after purging all of the air out of the oil system, I tried > spinning the engine over to check for oil pressure. It only takes about 3-5 > seconds to indicate about 35 psi oil pressure. Here's the problem: while > spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What I found > was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts measured at > the battery. This value stays constant while starting for 8-10 seconds. Even > after trying it several times, the battery open load voltage reads 12.6 volts, > and while starting drops to 8.8. So the problem isn't with the micromonitor, > it's the low bus voltage while starting. > > I've got a new Sky-tec starter, and a new RG-25XC battery from Van's. I built > a battery charger that's regulated to 14.1 volts. After charging the battery > untill the charge voltage is 14.1 volts and current drops to 750 ma, I figure > that the battery should be fully charged. I can either install the optional > back-up battery for the micromonitor to power it during start-up, or just > leave it off untill the engine fires up. What I need to know, is maybe > something wrong with the battery? I thought that the recombinant gas batteries > were supposed to be able to really deliver a lot of cranking power. Hmmmm. > -- Abby Razer Barbara Razer Molly the Dog and Chet Razer razer(at)midwest.net http://scribers.midwest.net/razer/ Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. ="4D4F5353" Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery-Start Questions From: chester razer <razer(at)midwest.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:03:53 +1100 by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05808 ST) [132.233.247.11]) by fmm ail.fm.intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02685 for <Allen_Duberstein@ccm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Dimple Tape
Has anybody found a source for dimple tape. I'm going to give the tape a try on my prop. As long as I'm buying, anybody got some snake oil they want to sell! Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil(at)pressenter.com>
Subject: MN Wing Meeting
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Fellow Listers: Just a quick note to advise those in the Twin Cities area of our regular = meeting of the MN Wing. Date: Sat, Jan 31. Time: 0900-1200. = Location: Terminal Building classroom, Fleming Field, S. St. Paul, MN. = Topic: "Ask the Experts": a panel discussion with our local RV experts = Tom Berge (RV-6), Arden Johnson (RV-6A), Paul Irlbeck (RV-4). = Coffee/juice/donuts. For details email or call me. Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing ******************************************* Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI=20 715-386-1239 =20 email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com =20 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Cowl Cut-out for O-320-H2AD
<< DON"T do this... without gravity feed on your tanks, an electrical failure makes you a glider pilot unless you have the mechanical pump. >> Bad advise Kyle. There is NO gravity feed on a low wing aircraft unless you have a header tank. Unless modified, RV's do not have header tanks. Two electric pumps will provide good redundancy unless you have a catastrophic electrical failure. Even so, a failure of the mechanical pump "can" leave you with a blockage that can render the electrical pump useless. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: "Capt Brian J. Mork, 333-6044" <MorkBJ.DFC.USAFA(at)usafa.af.mil>
Subject: dimples or dimple tape
charset=US-ASCII >>>There is a man in New Orleans (Sam Steele, I believe) who >>>patented some dimple tape for the leading edges of airplanes. He >>>put it on his -4 and claims a pick up of 8 mph. His friend with >>>another plane claims he picked up 10 mph. I thinkthere was an >>>article in sport aviation a while back concerning this. >> >>January 1998 Sport Aviation. >> > >I still cant figure where to get the stuff from the article---or am I just >missing it. I played on the web for about 10 minutes, and found this web site from the IBM patent search engine: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5378524 Patent #5378524 was filed by Charles L. Blood of Atlantic Highlands, NJ in March of 1993. Just about 15 miles south of New York, across the bay. His patent is about pressing the dimples into the structure. I couldn't find one about the "tape-on" dimples referenced in the Sport Aviation. (My issue is out of hand right now, so I couldn't look up any details to search on.) If you want to search for patents, just use the first part of the URL (skip the details?... part). I also found an older patent by Lee, #517623, filed in 12/90, on a similar topic. I searched for Charles Blood, using this URL: http://www1.bigyellow.com/part_infoseek.part and found him at 18 Village Ln, Middleton, NJ. (908) 671-9371. --- "Standard disclaimer applies" - PGP key available via my web page. Brian J. Mork, 4504-C W. Juniper, USAFA, CO 80840 Mork@USA.Net, or http://www.pcisys.net/~mork/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343 <JDaniel343(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Question on Elevator/Trim
Hi Doug, Can I bring my elevator and trim tab to the meeting. I have a problem which maybe someone there can answere. Regard John L. Danielson the weather in So Cal sucks. And there are lots of other bad things about it too!!! PLEASE DONT MOVE HERE!!!! In jest, Mike Wills RV-4 (fuse on order) San Diego, Ca. willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil > >Move to Southern California. It was just shy of 80 degrees today. > >Jeff Carpenter >RV-6 >Altadena, CA >wstcttprss(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Lighting question
RV-listers, ... has anyone got the Vans red LED swivel light mounted in their plane and in use? I am considering mounting it on the top brace just behind the roll bar (tip-up canopy) for use as a map light. Has anyone done anything similar? ... waiting to hear ACTUAL useage details ... ... Gil (light it up) Alexander working on completion of the baggage compartment. ------------------------------------ RV6A, #20701, finishing kit "REPLY" sends to entire RV-list mailto:gila(at)flash.net to reply privately ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: "Anderson Ed" <anderson_ed(at)bah.com>
Subject: Re: Hinge cracks
Les, L & M Rowles wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am posting this for a friend who has a problem with his hinges at the > propeller > He would appreciate any ideas. > > Regards Les. > Les Rowles > Po Box 1895 > Traralgon > Australia 3844 > lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
From: "Anderson Ed" <anderson_ed(at)bah.com>
Subject: Re: Hinge cracks
Les, I eliminated the use of hinges around the front center part of the cowl. What I did instead was to take two 1/8 inch plates (approx 2"x2" - don't have the exact size with me), put two nut plates on each side of the cowl separator line and then used structural screws to hold the plate to each side of the separator line ( in effect is use this as a splice plate to tie two halves of cowl together - I use one plate on each side of the cow.. The plate and screws will stand any expected load. The only possible week link I can think of is the rivets holding the nutplates to the fiberglass cowl. I actually riveted the nutplates to a .032 piece of 2024 and then used a number of rivets thru the fiberglass into the 0.032. Their are probably better ideas, this is just what I used. Ed RV-6A L & M Rowles wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am posting this for a friend who has a problem with his hinges at the > propeller surround area of his cowl. The last time he replaced these > pieces of hinge (they are about 60mm long) he used extruded hinge and they > still cracked on the out side of the round section. > He would appreciate any ideas. > > Regards Les. > Les Rowles > Po Box 1895 > Traralgon > Australia 3844 > lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Lead times(COLD WEATHER)
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: RV-List: Lead times(COLD WEATHER) >Fran Malczynski wrote: >> This combo keeps me working all winter long on about $6.45 worth of >> kerosine a week and I haven't seen any signs of condensation. I have not >> figured the electricity cost yet. I do have fantasies about working in >> an area where I have to turn on air conditioning instead of firing up a >> heater. >Be careful what you ask for, in mid july here in Florida it will be >95-100 degrees, 90% humidity. My hanger is not insulated and with the >sun beating down on it I have seen the thermometer go off the scale. >You can't tell if it's tears or sweat running down your face. > >Craig Hiers I wish to comment on insulating your "manufacturing facility" for your homebuilt. The main purpose is to maintain a proper temperature - and humidity level for both the project stuff and the builder. This applies to the hot areas of the continent as well as the cold areas. I live in Northern Ontario. I had built a "facility" in my garage, including power, lights, etc., etc. I now plan to build a two-car garage at camp for building an RV-6A. I will give you my plans, then tell you what changes may be appropriate for hot areas. Check it out or contact me off list. I plan to put 4" of fiberglass in the (2 X 4) walls, and 6" or more of the same in the ceiling. No gaps except for a few inches at the bottom - eliminates wicking. Next, I will cover all surfaces with a 6mil plastic vapour barrier (4 mil or less probably okay but little diff. in cost). I will overlap edges and openings for fixtures. Remember that this is a vapour barrier so "air" holes should be eliminated. I will cover all inside surfaces with 1/2" gyprock. I will use peg boards, racks, etc., so as to NOT nail directly to the wall material (destroying the vapour barrier). I will tack temporary vapour barriers over the door frames to cut off drafts. If a door is not wood I would insulate it as well. Depending on whether combustion is used inside this approach will require venting while working - it's like using the fireplace. I'm going to be building the RV-6A and other projects for a LONG time. My needs are to work in shirtsleeves regardless of weather, including high winds at 30 below. A 2,000 hour plus project is not "seasonal work". If I moved south I would do little different (I've lived in St. Louis for 10 years). Remember that an "insulated" Thermos keeps stuff cold - or hot. Using the above system I could work in St. Louis in July when it's a muggy 90 degrees. One window a/c should do it. Using the above info any building supply or contractor could easily tell you requirements for a/c size. In the south the objective is to keep the heat OUT - not in, and allows the ground temperature concrete to add some cooling. An attic fan would pay for itself. I think that anyone contemplating this down south should ask someone about the vapour barrier. NOTE: the vapour barrier should be on the warm side. In the north this means the inside. Down south, I dunno???. Ask the person who knows or uses air conditioning. Happy Building! Ernest Kells Ph: (705) 946-4461 ICQ# 5958145 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau <MLaboyteau(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Battery-Start summary
Some of the replies that I've received: >Mark, >The starter puts a major load on the battery and it is normal for the bus >voltage to drop. I have seen this cause problems with a lot of the >electronic data displays (vision micro systems, etc.) I feel better knowing that it's a common malady. >I would not place any 'sensitive' equipment on line until after the >start transients and after the Alternator is placed on line. I would >like to monitor engine function right from the first, I question if >the instrumentation will live long when supplied from a wildly >swinging bus. Electronics International has told me that their >equipment will survive. I have all my gages (except the engine >analyzer) wired to the primary bus. All other equipment is on the >avionics bus. So far E.I. hasn't lied!!! I didn't realize that the bus voltage would swing as much as it does. I had assumed that most builders who use the Micromonitor, would have it turned on during engine start. Before I purchased the unit, I downloaded the installation and operator manual, and neither one mentions having to use the optional back up battery during engine start to prevent scrambling the cpu. It's really not a problem, it's just that I had never heard anyone mention this before. >sounds like you have a few too many milliohms in either the ground path from >the battery to the starter or the power feed to same. > >Voltage = Ohms x Current (roughly 200 at startup) >Voltage 14.1 - 8.8 = 5.3 volts > >Ohms = 5.3 / 200 = 0.0265 ohms > = 26.5 milliohms > - doesn't take much to drop the voltage a worring amount. I was measuring the battery voltage at the battery, and when I engaged the starter, the votage at the battery droped from 12.6 open load to 8.8 under load. I didn't measure the voltage drop from the battery to the starter, because man that motor was spinning! I've only dealt with rental aircraft untill now, but I've never seen one spin as fast as mine is! After just a couple of seconds, it develops quite a breeze. I might go ahead and measure it anyway, just out of curiousity. I have already assembled a milliohmeter ala Bob Nuckolls that I was using to chase the shield/ground problem I had. It really works great. Would you believe that a new D cell alkaline battery could source 7 amps? Thanks to all who replied, on and off the list. Mark LaBoyteaux MLaboyteau(at)aol.com RV-6A N106RV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog <Vanremog(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Hinge cracks
<< I am posting this for a friend who has a problem with his hinges at the propeller surround area of his cowl. The last time he replaced these pieces of hinge (they are about 60mm long) he used extruded hinge and they still cracked on the out side of the round section. He would appreciate any ideas. >> IMO, toss the hinge. Instead use two pieces of .062" thk aluminum sheet riveted to the lower cowling with approx .75" overhang (underhang?). Put the top cowling in place and pull it down in tight position. Drill 3 holes each side in the top cowling, going thru the plate. Then install platenuts in the plate and countersink the top cowling and you have a much stronger attachment. I didn't invent this, but it is what most of the builders in the SF bay area have done. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrownTool <BrownTool(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Tool discounts??
<< Avery will also give you a discount if you make a big order with them as I recall. I think it was on the order of 10% or so and as I recall you have to order more than 1 grand, which the basic RV and advanced RV kit will cover that nicely. (and then some). >> We offer discounts on tool purchases made at one time as well. Discount amount varies based on amount of purchase. Please visit our website or call for more information: http://www.browntool.com Thanks ! Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. Behtany, Oklahoma 1-800-587-3883 405-495-4991 BrownTool(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Acker" <n164ra(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Cowl Cut-out for O-320-H2AD
Date: Jan 27, 1998
> From: RV6junkie <RV6junkie(at)aol.com> > << DON"T do this... without gravity feed on your tanks, an electrical failure > makes you a glider pilot unless you have the mechanical pump. >> > > Bad advise Kyle. There is NO gravity feed on a low wing aircraft unless you > have a header tank. Unless modified, RV's do not have header tanks. Two > electric pumps will provide good redundancy unless you have a catastrophic > electrical failure. Even so, a failure of the mechanical pump "can" leave you > with a blockage that can render the electrical pump useless. > Gary Corde Gary, I read Kyle's post differently...in that he advises against two electric pumps on any airplane without gravity feed, since you are SOL if the electrons stop flowing. VERY good advise IMHO. Please help me to understand how two electric pumps that are gone due to electrical failure (I suspect complete electrical failure occurs more often than mechanical pump blockage), provide something that can be termed "good" redundancy. I don't see redundancy in flight critical systems operated from the same source. But, you've got me thinking now. My H2AD has one magneto and an electronic ignition (defense against the single magneto drive failing). I've been toying with the idea of a backup battery for the E.I....how about using two electric pumps, each on a different circuit for redundancy? I don't want to put that nasty bump on my cowl . Rob (RV-6Q). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: RV6A - General Engine Questions
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Royce, I think the first two questions are answered in your Lycoming Operators Manual which should have come with your engine. Actually, looking from the rear of the engine, the pressure port is located lower right and forward of the oil filter housing. The return port is upper left forward of the housing. Both have socket head plugs installed. The brass hose connector just to the left and forward is for the breather line. The temperature probe goes in the port right next to the filter at about eleven thirty on the clock. It usually comes with a plastic plug screwed in place. I put my fuel pump overflow rubber fuel line right down the middle. It was ahead of and above the exhaust outlets. There have been some other posts on this, so the archives should have more info. The oil cooler mounting bolt length will vary depending on the number of rows of tubes and type of cooler. The alternator pulley should run true. You might try an alternator repair shop for a replacement or return it for another. Run a cooling blast tube off the baffle to the rear of the alternator to cool it. I don't have a lot of pictures nor a scanner. Sorry I can't help here. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >A few firewall forward questions > >On a new Vans O320-D1A Is the line on top and fwd of the spin on oil filter >a feed to the oil cooler? > >Is the position for the oil temp the large flat bolt head underneath? > >Where exactly are people putting the fuel overflow? > >What is the size of the bolts for mounting the oil cooler (Vans)? Tony B's >engine book says AN3-42, but my measurements show 4-37 with allowing for 1/8 >stiffening angle. > >Van's Alt. The pully looks drunk when you spin it. I'm sure this will scrub >out the belt in no time. Any others in a similar position? Solution? The >pully doesn't have a fan attached. Should I try to get one of these? > >Anyone with firewall fwd pictures to share? > >Thanks for the help > >Royce (not even close to finishing) Craven >Melbourne Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: alternate engines
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Would be interested in hearing from any builders that are considering and/or using auto engine conversions. Especially Chevy Vortec. Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: WI builder group
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Are there any Wisconsin RV builders that would be interested in forming a builders group or getting together to work on a plane or launch a WI RV newsletter? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andy Rice <arice(at)ramaker.com>
Subject: FW: Message to List Contained MIME...
Date: Jan 27, 1998
> Sorry to bother you all. > What's a complete RV-4 kit worth (un-assembled of course and doesn't > have all the holes pre-drilled). It is supposed to be complete except > for engine & instruments. Just the full RV-4 factory shipped kit. Do > you find the build time to still be about 2000 hours? What is the price difference between this old-style kit and the newer pre-punched wing > skins? Is the price worth the effort? > Andy Rice ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WstcttPrss <WstcttPrss(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Quick Question on HS ...
In a message dated 1/26/98 6:20:50 PM, you wrote: <When you are sanding remember you have to >finish with 400 grit, but you don't have to start with 400 grit. On >some things I started with 80 or 120 as I recall to take the band saw >marks off and then switched over to 400. John Bright>> I spent the first 6 weeks of my empennage kit sanding out tooling marks on the HS stiffeners with 400 grit sandpaper. Now, nearly two years later, I'm finishing up the empennage regretting any time at all I spent sanding. ROUND OFF THE SHARP CORNERS, DEBURR THE SHARP EDGES AND HOLES AND MOVE ON. You have to prime the metal parts. If you choose to prime the aluminum parts, spray them with Alumiprep, hose them down with water and when they dry shoot them with primer. Stop the sanding madness!! More of us would be flying our own birds by now if we weren't so damn anal. Jeff Carpenter RV-6 Altadena, CA wstcttprss(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb <RV4131rb(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Cowl Cut-out for O-320-H2AD
<< << DON"T do this... without gravity feed on your tanks, an electrical failure makes you a glider pilot unless you have the mechanical pump. >> Bad advise Kyle. There is NO gravity feed on a low wing aircraft unless you have a header tank. Unless modified, RV's do not have header tanks. Two electric pumps will provide good redundancy unless you have a catastrophic electrical failure. Even so, a failure of the mechanical pump "can" leave you with a blockage that can render the electrical pump useless. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ >> Sorry Gary I dont agree with you here. The idea behind the electrical pump is to provide a boost for starting and a back up for the engine driven pump. The idea is redundancy. If one system fails hopefully you will be able to continue on with the other until a safe landing can be made. I do agree that its possible if the mechanical pump fails the system could be clogged ,but nothing is fullproof. Its guaranteed that if you are running on 2 boost pumps and have an elecrical failure you are now a glider. That is unless you want to go to the trouble of having a seperate battery system for your second boost pump. Its best not to try and build in any single failure point. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KB2DU <KB2DU(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re:Heated Pito
Any opinions on the 2 Heated Pito Systems from Gretz Aero, as far as with Static or with out. And if someone has the correct E-Mail Address for them it would help - my 2 requests came back from the Mail Demon - Thanks Bill Sivori KB2DU(at)AOL.COM ges (except the engine >analyzer) wired to the primary bus. All other equipment is on the >avionics bus. So far E.I. hasn't lied!!! I have a relayed circuit (lifted from amateur radio operators who put sensitive radio gear into their cars) that automatically cuts out power to the avionics bus when power drops, and then when you restart, a button press brings the avionics bus back on line -- kind of like a "you can't accidently leave me on for the next start" circuit. If interested, email me at mork(at)usa.net. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1998
Subject: Re: Battery-Start Questions
From: ebundy(at)Juno.com (Ed Bundy)
> This weekend after purging all of the air out of the oil system, I tried > spinning the engine over to check for oil pressure. It only takes about 3-5 > seconds to indicate about 35 psi oil pressure. Here's the problem: while > spinning the engine over, my RMI micromonitor display goes nuts. What I found > was that the battery voltage while starting, drops to 8.8 volts measured at > the battery. This value stays constant while starting for 8-10 seconds. Even > after trying it several times, the battery open load voltage reads 12.6 volts, >What you are seeing is not at all abnormal. The starter will pull at least 200 amps on even a warm start. This MUST cause a significant drop in voltage across the battery. Yes it does. My Voltmeter shows 10.5-11V during cranking. I have read that you should see at least 9v during cranking on a good battery. I'm using an RG-25, so it sounds like yours might be a little low on charge. I think cranking voltage is a better indicator of battery condition than open circuit voltage. You can have decent open circuit voltage on a very weak battery.

RV-Archive.digest.vol-ec

RV-Archive.digest.vol-ec