RV-Archive.digest.vol-eg

February 14, 1998 - February 21, 1998



      backrivetting, so why not do it? I found that my back rivetted top skins did
      come out better than most of my conventional rivetted  work. Not to say that
      I am overly upset with the quality of that work, but if you can do something
      that has the potential to improve your workmanship for a minimal cost, do it.
       A side benefit of backrivetting wing skins is that it takes little to no
      skill at the bucking bar to do great work. For conventional rivetting I must
      rely on a friend to help, as the wife and kids have proven to be not very
      proficient with gun or bar. But my 15 year old daughter bucked the top skins
      on my wings. Just wish my conventionally rivetted leading edges looked as
      good as the top skins.
      
      Mike Wills
      RV-4(fuse ordered)
      willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil
      
        Is it really neccessary to backrivet
      >the wings, or can you do an qually nice job with the swivel set?
      >
      >
      >Alan Carroll
      >RV-8 #80177 (Wings)
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil(at)pressenter.com>
Subject: RV-4 main longeron rivet spacing
Date: Feb 14, 1998
Fellow Listers and RV-4 experts: In reference to drawing 31 showing the fuselage skin rivet spacing. My question concerns the type rivets and spacing attaching the side skins to the main longerons (especially from the firewall rearward to F-404). Are these #4 rivets spaced 2" apart? I have heard others have decreased this spacing and used #3 rivets instead for a better appearance (especially from the F407 aft to the tail). What have others done and what do you recommend? Thanks, Doug ******************************************* Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI 715-386-1239 email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: "L. Coats" <lcoats(at)wave.co.nz>
Subject: New lightweight radio/intercom
For those that are looking for a lightweight radio/intercom there was one on display at our 'Oshkosh' here in New Zealand. A nice compact unit only weighing 550g or about a pound - haven't found out if it is just mono or stereo. Web page is http://www.netlink.co.nz/~gliding/microair.html Usual disclaimer applies here! L. Coats ZK-RVL RV6 flying :-) 228.3hr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Craig Hiers <craig-RV4(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RV-4 main longeron rivet spacing
Doug Weiler wrote: > > > Fellow Listers and RV-4 experts: > > In reference to drawing 31 showing the fuselage skin rivet spacing. My > question concerns the type rivets and spacing attaching the side skins to > the main longerons (especially from the firewall rearward to F-404). Are > these #4 rivets spaced 2" apart? I have heard others have decreased this > spacing and used #3 rivets instead for a better appearance (especially from > the F407 aft to the tail). What have others done and what do you recommend? > > Thanks, > > Doug > Doug I used #4 rivets and a 2" spacing. If I had to do it over agian I would use #3 rivets and reduce the spacing, it looks nicer. The downside of this is drilling and bucking the additional rivets in the rear of the fuselage. Good luck Craig Hiers ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Mack" <donmack(at)allways.net>
Subject: Re: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing)
Date: Feb 14, 1998
charset="us-ascii" > Anyone have any hints for drilling the spacers & brass bearing for the >aileron mounts? They just spin in every clamp I can devise, getting >rather deeply _scored_ (not scratched) in the process. > > Brian Huffaker, DSWL (huffaker(at)utw.com) > President and Founder Friends of P-Chan > RV-8 80091 Mounting 1st Aileron I took some soft, thick aluminum and made covers for my bench vise. Took about five minutes and works great. Holds just about anything without marking it up. Don Mack RV-6A (just hung the wings to mount the landing gear, does that look NICE) donmack(at)allways.net http://www.flash.net/~donmack ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: duane dickson <ddickson(at)hubwest.com>
Subject: REMOVE
I think this message was in connection with SISNA switching me from their mail,sisna.com mail server to mail.hubwest.com server. This caused me and the service provider pain and inconveniance. Sorry. ------------------------------------- Name: duane dickson E-mail: ddickson(at)hubwest.com ------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
Date: Feb 14, 1998
> >More notes from the test flying. > SNIP >You can also hold her in a stall, >wings level, coming down stalled, wings kept level with rudder OR ailerons >(they are effective all the way throught the stall) and instant recovery >with neutral stick. You are correct that you can control your RV in a stall with the ailerons, however this is a bad habit to develop. I am not saying that you should not explore this area, however, many flyers fail to understand the danger in recovering from stalls in this manuver. When you raise a wing with the aileron you increase the angle of attack on the wing with a down aileron. In some aircraft or some configurations this can cause the "remainder" of the wing to stall. In certain airplanes this will result in an exciting ride. If the ball is not center the ride gets worse. Learning and practicing the old and seldom practiced falling leaf will help overcome the instinct that most pilots develop in well mannered airplanes (RV's and C-150s) to raise the stalled wing with aileron. In the wrong bird or configuration this can have deadly consequences. The falling leaf will train the proper response of raising the wing with rudder while keeping the ailerons neutral. If you happen to not believe this, try it in a T-6 or a DC-3. Once is all it takes. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com (my old netins.net is no longer valid) www.petroblend.com/dougr PS if your instructor says "what's a falling leaf," get a new (older) instructor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
Listers, This is probably a really stupid question, but... I've got to ask it Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 armrests bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? I keep looking at this and wonder how the skin will fit if it doesn't bow. The plans show a bow, but pictures in the manual seem straight. I should have taken more pictures of the QB kit at Oshkosh last year. Gary Zilik RV-6A (pondering bowing f-615, cutting flanges off of to wide baggage floor ribs) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
> Bear in mind that you will wind up using method A) when you put on > your last skins because you have no choice! We put on our top skins > first using method B) but now that we are done I can't see any > difference between A) and B). My wife and I used method B (back riveting) with Avery's set. I was running the gun and had a real hard time making good shop heads. I rebent the back rivet set and this helped, but it was still the hardest riveting I had done. On the other wing we started the same way. I got fed up and decided to go to plan A, I knew I could do this. My wife has been the bucker as I had figured bucking would be the easy part. Turns out that my wife hated bucking so I let her have the rivet gun. With no practice and on the top skins of my wings she started riveting. We messed up one rivet (my fault) and she will never hold a bucking bar again. She says running the gun is really easy, so she guns and I buck. I can not tell the difference between the two riveting types on the wings. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing)
Brian Huffaker wrote: > > Anyone have any hints for drilling the spacers & brass bearing for the > aileron mounts? They just spin in every clamp I can devise, getting > rather deeply _scored_ (not scratched) in the process. > > Brian Huffaker, DSWL (huffaker(at)utw.com) > President and Founder Friends of P-Chan > RV-8 80091 Mounting 1st Aileron Brian I am not sure why you would be drilling bearings and spacers on your aileron mounts. On my mounts the bearings are already in place, in fact the hole mount is prefabricated. On the brackets that mount to the aileron I predrilled them taking the dimensions from the plans as gospel. When fitting the aileron and brackets to the mounts, I calculated how long the spacer needed to be and made these from the tubing supplied for this. Cut the tubing (spacer) a little longer than needed. Chuck the tubing in your drill and take it to the belt sander. With the sander running and drill running you get a real nice finished end on the tube (spacer) Measure with calipers as you go and soon you will have a perfectly fitting spacer. Gary Zilik RV- 6A (building the fuselage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing)
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 14, 1998
> > ><< > > Anyone have any hints for drilling the spacers & brass bearing for >the > aileron mounts? They just spin in every clamp I can devise, getting > rather deeply _scored_ (not scratched) in the process. > >> I assume with the brass bearing you mean the one for the RV-* aileron bellcrank (I never received your orig post just a reply someone else sent)? The inside diameter (I.D.) is best opened up with a reamer of the correct size for the bolt that has to slip through. A drill bit grabs to much and causes the problem you are describing. As for the spacers... If you mean the ones that are cut from the hard ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 14, 1998
I agree with most of what has been said about the two possible methods for riveting wing skins with a couple of exceptions. We can't say that universally back riveting is no major quality difference to the normal method. Remember not every RV builder develops the same level of skill as another. And to some the work they are doing looks real good until they see what is possible with other techniques. I agree that someone can do as good a job front riveting as they can back riveting, but not everyone can. As discussed already it is easy to do and is particularly ideal when using inexperienced helpers. In our shop we do it on the top main wing skins for 2 reasons. 1, We can doing the best job possible with out a lot of effort, and have very little chance of doing any damage that would be embarrassing (We do want you customers to be impressed so that you will buy our kits ;-) ) 2. We can do it as fast as possible. Takes us less than 1 hour to put both main top skins on a wing. Give it a try. Also, I mentioned on a previous thread that we modify the Avery back rivet set by heating it with a torch and put a second bend directly behind the first one. This gives it a double off-set and keeps the driving action directly parallel to the rivet. Makes it work much easier. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
Date: Feb 14, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 9:34 PM Subject: RV-List: f-615 seat rib RV-6A > >Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 armrests >bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? >Gary Zilik Gary, I just put a straight edge to my riveted fuselage and F-615 is straight -- in truth, mine is concave inward about 1/16! It is good practice to use the arm rest to make the longeron curve because then you have a good shot at the canopy frame fitting. When I got to the F-623 things got hard to visualize. It's placement is not critical. but do not use up much space with rivets in hanging it at the aft end. Do the final attaching after you have bent the curve in the tab and have overlapped all the skins. There is a lot that comes together there and you want to have freedom to place rivets wherever they need to go. Dennis Persyk 6A finishing kit Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Derek Reed <dreed(at)cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
> > > Has anyone "front" riveted their wing skins using Avery's swivel set? > Alan Carroll > RV-8 #80177 (Wings) I 'Front' riveted my left wing top and bottom,helped a friend do top skin on his RV8 and we were both very pleased with the results,not one bad rivet,used the Avery swivel set,wouldn't be without one. First time builder.There are old timers here that laugh at the swivel set ,but then they are not doing my riveting.!! Derek Reed Grants Pass OR RV6A Finishing wings. > > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 15, 1998
writes: > >Listers, > >This is probably a really stupid question, but... I've got to ask it > >Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 >armrests >bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? I keep looking at this and >wonder how the skin will fit if it doesn't bow. The plans show a bow, >but pictures in the manual seem straight. I should have taken more >pictures of the QB kit at Oshkosh last year. > >Gary Zilik >RV-6A (pondering bowing f-615, cutting flanges off of to wide baggage >floor ribs) > > > Not stupid at all. You have to look at the plans closely but it does show that the seat rib also should be curved to approximate the curve on the arm rest. Fear not builders if you already have skinned but didn't do so (My personal RV-6A which was the first one I built has straight seat ribs) the only effect it really has on the airplane is a different trim of the wing root fairings. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing)
<< (just hung the wings to mount the landing gear, does that look NICE) >> I'll bet that really, really does. It'll be much easier to imagine it flying now!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 1998
From: Alex Peterson <alexpeterson(at)MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
> Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 armrests > bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? I keep looking at this and > wonder how the skin will fit if it doesn't bow. The plans show a bow, > but pictures in the manual seem straight. I should have taken more > pictures of the QB kit at Oshkosh last year. Gary, good question. The side skin, once against the longeron and arm rest, will define the curvature of the outboard seat ribs. The outboard seat ribs nail down the fore/aft dimension between wing spar sockets, so try to get the proper curvature in the outboard seat rib prior to drilling both ends. Also, unless the parts have been corrected, the flange which will support the seat bottoms will need to be shimmed around 1/8 - 3/16". Once the seat ribs are all drilled to the 604 and 605 bulkheads, hold a straight edge laterally across the flanges which will support the seat bottoms to determine if something needs to be done. It might be easier to do something now rather than later. I shimmed mine later with wood strips. Have others had this problem? Alex Peterson 6A, Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
<34E664CF.979B4BBB(at)bewellnet.com>
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 15, 1998
With >no >practice and on the top skins of my wings she started riveting. We >messed up one rivet (my fault) and she will never hold a bucking bar >again. She says running the gun is really easy, so she guns and I >buck. >I can not tell the difference between the two riveting types on the >wings. > > Just curious, are you using a swivel rivet set? My wife also drove most of the rivets in our airplane (except some of the fuselage, I'll explane in a minute) using a swivel rivet set. Looks real good. We won a few workmanship awards. IMO back riveting has the edge when you get to skins that have more of a curved shape than you have with wing skins, such as the fuselage turtle deck. When you drive the conventional way on a curved skin using a flat set, it can tend to pound a small flat on the highly curved surface. While I was in the Philippines helping them build the first 2 RV-8 quick build airframes I introduced them to back riveting. Every guy in the shop was laughing at me... for about 5 minutes. They all then became instant converts. I believe all of the fuselage riveting is now done this way and I believe you can tell a difference if you were to compare to the fuselages before that. On the RV-6(A) kit the tail cone has thin J stringer material that distorts more during riveting that the .063 angle that is in the RV-4 and RV-8 if you drive on it too hard. Back riveting works very good here also. And it is accessible enough to use the standard back rivet set with the spring thing on the end. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
>>You can also hold her in a stall, wings level, coming down stalled, wings kept >>level with rudder OR ailerons (they are effective all the way throught the >>stall).... >You are correct that you can control your RV in a stall with the ailerons, >however this is a bad habit to develop. Point here is that this is such a well designed aircraft that you HAVE aileron control in a stall, not that you should USE aileron control in a stall. Some aircraft lose aileron control early in the development of a stall. This is one of the things you discover while in the TEST PHASE. :>) >If your instructor says "what's a falling leaf," get a new (older) >instructor Wow! Haven't heard anyone mention THAT maneuver in a while. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: re: cell phones in aircraft
Date: Feb 14, 1998
This morning while accompying group of cub scouts on a tour of my favorite tower, ATC told me about a pilot last week that lost radio communications and didn't know lost communication procedures... so he called the tower on his cell phone... -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 8:38 PM Subject: RV-List: re: cell phones in aircraft > > >> >>I will be getting a copy of the FCC rules from him in the mail. If you >>want a copy, e-mail me, and I will e-mail back with it attached. >> >>I said I WAS going to install it, no longer, and the fine is $10000. > > Cell phone frequencies are indeed allocated to land-mobile service > only and it's an FCC issue, not an FAA one. Therefore, it's > a vilolation of a regulation to use one from an airborne aircraft. > Now, could you use one while on taxi from active to the ramp to > call home, call for fuel, etc? Certainly. Just can't have daylight > under the wheels. > > Would it be prudent to carry a hand held or have an installed > cell phone for situations where it's use might mitigate lost > of property, or worse yet, loss of life? Certainly. The FCC > is like any other branch of government with inforcement > responsabilities. The LIKELYHOOD that any single transgression > of the rules will be (1) noticed, (2) complained about, (3) > acted upon by an enforcer who already has too much on his plate > is extremely small. Use of a cellphone in blatant, obvious and > noticed disregard for the rules is inviting the wrath of > government. Responsable use within the rules with occasional > "transgressions" when warranted are most unlikely to bring > you grief. Given the capabilities and growing coverage of cell > phones and their technology, I'd not go flying without it > (if I owned one). > > It's an issue similar to the ELT's that were once sold to > hikers and backpackers . . . obviously not for the original > intended purpose but if used only for the most obvious emergency > situations, it's unlikely to get the user in hot water. Now, > the REAL crime is the fact that a back-packer laying at the > bottom of a drop with a broken leg thinks the calvary is > going to come riding over the hill as soon as the switch is > flipped on his little yellow box. I believe a recent AOPA > article told us that ELTs yield their intended usefulness in > less than 10% of aircraft accidents where an ELT is installed. > But that's another problem . . . My best recommendation, trash > your ELT and buy a cell phone. > > Now, if you wanted to INSTALL a cell phone in your certified > ship, the FAA would have you drawn, sawed and quartered for > not installing a TSO'ed model . . . it matters not how many > lives might be saved. So use only HAND HELD devices in your > certified iron, and don't plug it into the cigar lighter. > In some FAA jurisdictions this is tantamount to an "installation". > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < If you do, > > < What you've always done, > > < You will be, > > < What you've always been. > > ================================= > <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Hanging the wings (was "drilling thin tubing (spacer
s & bearing)")
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Don, I'm a few weeks away from hanging the wings for drilling the landing gear. How did it go for you? Did everything go together the first time? Did it take six guys all day? Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Drilling side skins to fuselage -22 degrees this morning -----Original Message----- (just hung the wings to mount the landing gear, does that look NICE) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Mine are straight/flat and do not bow. When you get the side skins on it all looks fine. The curves at the main longeron and along the side all taper down to a more or less flat and straight bottom. Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont -----Original Message-----Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 armrests bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: FW: Question: forming aft end of F-670 side skins
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Hello listers, Here is a message I sent to Van's this morning. Any comments from those who have been there before me? Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Fuselage in a jig -----Original Message----- From: Stephen J. Soule Sent: Sunday, February 15, 1998 6:35 AM Subject: Question: forming aft end of F-670 side skins Hello Van's Aircraft, I have fitted the side skin F-670 to my fuselage. I formed the curve or cone-shape in the aft end and finally got it to lay flat (more or less) on the F-623. Forming sheet metal is not something I do well. You should see the body work on some of my old cars! This aft part of the F-670 looks a bit like a cave man made it with stone tools. My question is this: Can I wrap this part of the side skin to the bottom of the airplane, that is, covering the bottom skin? The plans call for me to put the F-670 under the bottom skin. The way I made it, though, I am not sure the bottom skin will look good trying to cover the messy F-670. Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Builder's Number 24293 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: Dimple Tape Question
I know a couple of the hangar buddies of the man who developed this dimple tape. They say it works. Frank Smith (built several rv's) is supposed to try it on his constant speed prop this week and let me know the results. He said, of the one's who have tried it on rv type aircraft, most of the results was seen with the tape applied to the prop. The tape applied to the leading edges of the wings and tail surfaces showed lesser gains. A man with a stearman supposedly tried it on his wing struts and picked up 10 mph. I will try it as soon as I can get my hands on some. I trust Frank to give me the straight forward scoop on this stuff, as he does with everyhting else rv related. I get excited about "free" speed, too. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: Carroll Bird <catbird(at)taylortel.com>
Subject: Re: RV-4 main longeron rivet spacing
Doug Weiler wrote: > > Fellow Listers and RV-4 experts: > > In reference to drawing 31 showing the fuselage skin rivet spacing. My > question concerns the type rivets and spacing attaching the side skins to > the main longerons (especially from the firewall rearward to F-404). > Doug: I wouldn't worry too much about the spacing from the firewall to the instrument panel F403. There are a bunch of nutplates that go in this area, and probably one -4 rivet between each one would be sufficient. You will also have several #8 screws there. This can be laid out when you install the top skin from the firewall to the instrument panel.From the instrument panel back I would use -3 rivets at 1" to 1.25" spacing. I have seen others built this way and they look good. I didn't do it this way, but I wish I had. Happy Flying ---- Carroll Bird ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
Date: Feb 15, 1998
> > >You are correct that you can control your RV in a stall with the ailerons, >however this is a bad habit to develop. I am not saying that you should not >explore this area, however, many flyers fail to understand the danger in >recovering from stalls in this manuver. > Mike, In the first paragraph of my post (above) is was my intent to distinguish between flight test and flying, evidently I did not successfully acomplish that, sorry. My only point was that MOST people I fly with do not have a clue as to why this is a bad habit. I have been flying for 20 yrs and just recently got my instructor rating. I have been terrified how students and low timers pick up small statements or bad habits, and incorporate them in their flying, when asked where did you learn that they reply "from you......." Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com (my old netins.net is no longer valid) www.petroblend.com/dougr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
Date: Feb 14, 1998
On my QB they are straight. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > > >Between the 604 and 605 bulkheads the longerons bow, the f-620 armrests >bow, does the f-615 (L & R) seat rib bow? > >Gary Zilik >RV-6A (pondering bowing f-615, cutting flanges off of to wide baggage >floor ribs) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: Dimple Tape Question
<< Does anyone know anything about this? Is it "pie-in-the-sky"? Where can I buy this "dimple tape"? >> This was discussed ad nauseum recently. Tony can be reached at 504-831-1816. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Sketch SK-103, where are you?
Ref: RV-6 Instructions, chapter 12, page 12-2, last full paragraph of the page mentions "SK-103" which is supposed to depict a cross section of the upper cowl/firewall interface. Am I missing something obvious, or is "SK-103" hiding somewhere? I can find no such sketch anywhere in chapter 12. Tim Lewis ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Lewis N47TD (reserved) RV-6AQ #60023 on gear, engine mounted Springfield VA http://home.earthlink.net/~timrv6a timrv6a(at)iname.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
Date: Feb 15, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: SCOTT R MCDANIELS <smcdaniels(at)juno.com> Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 12:35 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Backriveting the Wings >On the RV-6(A) kit the tail cone has thin J stringer material that >distorts more during riveting that the .063 angle that is in the RV-4 and >RV-8 if you drive on it too hard. Back riveting works very good here >also. And it is accessible enough to use the standard back rivet set >with the spring thing on the end. > > >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. Scott, I was wondering about backriveting the tail cone and now my fears are confirmed -- I'll have to do it! I crawled in there to backdrill all the holes in the tail cone and it brought back memories of spelunking (cave exploring) and being in an MRI tunnel to get a scan of my back. Riveting in there must sound very much like an MRI scan. For the fortunate many who haven't had an MRI scan, Magnetic Resonance Imaging utilizes pulsed magnetic fields to image cross sections of your body. You are slid into a very skinny tunnel where you lay for what seems forever (about 20 minutes).The pulsation causes loud noises as the gantry distorts under the field forces and the sound is very much like riveting. (There are now so-called "open MRI" machines that are not so confining.) MRI back scans and tailcone drilling/riveting from within are not for people with even mild claustrophobic tendencies! Dennis Persyk 6A finishing kit Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Camlocs...?
Date: Feb 14, 1998
After carefully looking at and re-measuring the type S cowl top and side flanges, I think I will use the plain 212-12N receptacles and 2700 (-3 length) studs on the sides. Since the type S cowl is so much lighter and fits together so well, I don't believe that using the larger 4000 series studs and receptacles is necessary. However, I plan to install 9 of the MS245-2 floaing receptacles on the top and use the 2700 studs there for now. This will allow changing to the 4000 series studs and grommets later if the need arises. If anyone has any experience or comments on this, please reply. I would like to mention that if anyone is going to use the type S cowl, no shims are needed between the hinges on the firewall. Instead, a .040 shim is added to the cowl on the bottom sides hinges only. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >Hi, Ron. > >Strange you should ask about that. I just the other day received 25 of the >MS245-2 Receptacle, Floating, from Skybolt. Was not too happy. >So to answer your question. I quess I'm still out to lunch on this. I have >the new epoxy type cowl with the overlapping sides and intended to use the >adjustable receptacles and camloc fasteners, both across the top and on the >sides, instead of the hinges. I also intended to use soft 3/32 AN rivets to >mount them on the sides because of the thin fiberglass and wanted the >ability to adjust the holding tension. Until I try riveting a scrap of the >cowl with an NAS cheater rivet to see how it holds up to the squeeze, I >don't know if I will use them on the sides. The top will be okay because >they mount on .040 aluminum. I could mount the receptacles on aluminum >strips and then rivet the strips to the sides with the soft rivets which >would keep the 1/8" rivet squeezing from crunching the fiberglass>>Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > > >>Hello Les, >> How is your research going on the Camloc question? >> >> I just talked with a sales type at Skybolt, and he recommended >>going with the 4000 series as it would hold up better in the long run. >>i.e. less chance of holes wallowing out. >>Ron Vandervort ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: sburch(at)norfolk.infi.net (stan burchett)
Subject: BUILDER/PARTNER WANTED..HamptonRoads VA
-6A builder seeking partner to start -8 or -8A kit. I live in Tabb (lower York Co.). 757-867-7244 Stan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Camlocs...?
Date: Feb 15, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Leslie B. Williams <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com> Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 11:18 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Camlocs...? > >After carefully looking at and re-measuring the type S cowl top and side >flanges, I think I will use the plain 212-12N receptacles and 2700 (-3 >length) studs on the sides. Since the type S cowl is so much lighter and >fits together so well, I don't believe that using the larger 4000 series >studs and receptacles is necessary. However, I plan to install 9 of the >MS245-2 floaing receptacles on the top and use the 2700 studs there for now. >This will allow changing to the 4000 series studs and grommets later if the >need arises. If anyone has any experience or comments on this, please >reply. Les, Here are some tips I got from Roger Wall who has a show-plane quality 6. He has the old cowl and got fed up with the hinge and pin system for the top. He used 4002-G Grommet and 214 -16 Receptacle -5s (0.171 to 0.200 grip range), and Flush Grommet 4002-G. His reasoning for using the large head series was not for strength but rather to distribute the force of the fastener over a large area of the fiberglass to prevent fretting wear over time. He left off the snap ring until cowl painting so he could paint without the Camlocs in place. I want to use Camlocs throughout, so please keep us posted on how your project progresses. Dennis Persyk 6A finishing kit Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: sarg314(at)azstarnet.com (tom sargent)
Subject: AKZO primer vs water based
Gil: Hope you can stand one more primer question (off-list, at least). I've read over the many posts on AZKO primer and it sounds great, but only one of the posts I read mentioned tersely that it was toxic. How toxic? Does it contain isocyanates or chromates? Considering that priming isn't totally necessary in the first place, I don't see any reason to place myself at any risk to get it done. I found a Sherwyn Williams water based epoxy primer ("water based catalyzed epoxy primer", partA is B70W100, part B is B60V15) that sounds much more benign than most epoxies - I haven't used it yet, though. The SW guy told me I'd be foolish to use more dangerous paints. The hazards sheet mentions crystalline silica, etheylene glycol, and a couple of ethanol based solvents with no OSHA toxicity ratings established yet. I'd certainly take pains to ventilate a makeshift paint booth and wear a respirator, but it sounds much safer than most epoxies. So, how toxic is the AZKO primer and do you have any opinion on the SW water based epoxy? Thanks for your time. Tom Sargent (Trying to work on my RV6-A tailkit if I can EVER get a weekend off!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 1997
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
Doug Rozendaal wrote: > > > I have been flying for 20 yrs and just recently got my instructor rating. I > have been terrified how students and low timers pick up small statements or > bad habits, and incorporate them in their flying, when asked where did you > learn that they reply "from you......." > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > dougr(at)petroblend.com (my old netins.net is no longer valid) > www.petroblend.com/dougr > I like the one were the instructor tells the student to pull your nose up and the instructor looks over and sees the student trying to pull his nose up.....Your points are well taken Doug students do pick up allot of bad habits from us the instructor if we are not carefull. Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR Flying 34 yrs, Instructing 22 yrs. jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: RV-4 main longeron rivet spacing
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Hi Doug, I used #3 rivits with 1" spacing in my airplanes. It gives a much nicer appearence. I have not questioned Van personally about this but it was my understanding that he had OK'd it. It might pay to call & check. Regards, Bill RV4, N66WD _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Wing-walk Doubler-R-Wing?
I have a question about the wing walk doubler. What is the purpose of the wing walk doubler on the right wing of the RV-8? Is this a structural necessity, or purely for in case somebody steps there? If the non-skid wing walk tape is on the left side only, is it still necessary to have the doubler on the right wing? Just wondering. Von Alexander RV-8 #544 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russell Duffy" <rad(at)pen.net>
Subject: Re: Backriveting the Wings
Date: Feb 15, 1998
>MRI back scans and tailcone drilling/riveting from within are not for people >with even mild claustrophobic tendencies! I should be right at home doing mine from the inside. I've installed and serviced MRI scanners for 12 years :-) BTW- MRI scans are more fun than mylograms. Russell Duffy RV-8, (HS riveted yesterday, VS proceeding rapidly) Navarre, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Pro-Seal Application Idea
Just thought I would pass along a technique for Pro-Seal application that I learned about today from a fellow builder. Instead of the popsicle stick method, he used a cake decorating bag, with the small metal reuseable tip. These bags are a sort of cloth like material into which you put your premixed pro-seal and then twist and squeeze out the pro-seal in a very controllable manner, without applying too much. Outstanding results! These are available at your local large craft store. Hope this helps somebody, I am certainly going to use it when I get to my tanks, which should be within the next couple of weeks, I hope. Von Alexander RV-8 #544 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: Wing-walk Doubler-R-Wing?
<< If the non-skid wing walk tape is on the left side only, is it still necessary to have the doubler on the right wing? >> Von: By the time you get that airframe ready to fly, you will wish that the wingwalk extended to the tip! Put it in, and folks can enter (or exit) from either side. The -4 has it on the left only- the canopy keeps the inattentive on the correct side for entry/exit. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: Ray Lee <mesa(at)lonestarbbs.com>
Subject: Where on earth is SK-52
Working on Flaps (RV6) using F.Justice instructions. He refers to what I assume is a drawing, SK-52. Any help on where I might find this ???? Thanks Ray Lee RV6 (finishing wings at last) Plainview, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 1998
Subject: Re: Camlocs...?
<< I plan to install 9 of the MS245-2 floaing receptacles on the top and use the 2700 studs there for now. This will allow changing to the 4000 series studs and grommets later if the need arises. If anyone has any experience or comments on this, please reply. >> Les- The 4000 series, being larger in diameter mostly due to the grommets, requires a much greater edge distance. I think 5/8" edge to center. So, keep this in mind if you expect to convert from 2700 to 4000 in the future. -GV RV-6A N1GV (first flight tomorrow) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: MoeJoe <moejoe03(at)erols.com>
Subject: Polishing Aluminum
I am just about to finish riveting my HS, and would like to get off all the black marks left by the rivet set. Should I use some sort of polish, or should I just wipe it down with a cleaning solution like simple green? Moe Colontonio RV-8 HS Cherry Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
Doug Rozendaal wrote: > > > > > > > > >You are correct that you can control your RV in a stall with the ailerons, > >however this is a bad habit to develop. I am not saying that you should > not > >explore this area, however, many flyers fail to understand the danger in > >recovering from stalls in this manuver. > > I agree with Doug and the use of ailerons. If there is one thing that's important in "stall recovery" above any other manner of recovery. DO NOT USE THE AILERONS FOR CONTROL. The rudder is your primary direction and roll control surface on the aircraft. To use ailerons will only induce a longer recovery in many cases. This is from an old but not so bold pilot with 45yrs flying experience and having learned from the old guys. Now I are one. Flying is an unforgiving medium one that should be executed with knowledge and the advantage of others experience. Unlike the warnings that were given you by others about other things in your life and not taken to heart because you felt they didn't apply to you or it didn't apply to this case. This imformation may hurt you if you don't pay attention. Good luck, Don.... CFII,ATP,A&P,retired. RV6QB near done ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing-walk Doubler-R-Wing?
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 16, 1998
> If the non-skid wing walk >tape is >on the left side only, is it still necessary to have the doubler on >the right >wing? Just wondering. >Von Alexander >RV-8 #544 > > We assume that it adds strength to the wing in the root area ( and all the static load testing ws done with one on each wing ) so they are specified to be installed in both wings. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pro-Seal Application Idea
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 16, 1998
> >Just thought I would pass along a technique for Pro-Seal application >that I >learned about today from a fellow builder. Instead of the popsicle >stick >method, he used a cake decorating bag, with the small metal reuseable >tip. >These bags are a sort of cloth like material into which you put your >premixed >pro-seal and then twist and squeeze out the pro-seal in a very >controllable >manner, without applying too much. Outstanding results! These are >available at >your local large craft store. Hope this helps somebody, I am certainly >going >to use it when I get to my tanks, which should be within the next >couple of >weeks, I hope. >Von Alexander >RV-8 #544 > > > I just this past week tried something similar. I was going to post the idea here but someone beat me to it. Actually I feel kind of foolish for not trying something like this a long time ago. I have been assembling a set of RV-8 tanks for someone, and with it being the 8th or 9th set that I have put together I decided that their must be an easier/cleaner (yea right) way. Instead of a pastry tube I used a small sized ziplock freezer bag. Filled it with the amount of proseal to be used at that time, and then snipped the corner off so that it had about a 1/8 hole. Squeeze the bag and out it comes. I found this to be the most helpful when installing the rear baffle as it has the most area to cover all at one setting. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1998
From: "Michael J. Robbins" <kitfox(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: AKZO primer vs water based
Tom; I'm posting this to the list as it might be of interest to others considering using water based paints. I used a water based paint, both primer and topcoats, on my Kitfox. It was called SystemThree and made in Seattle, WA. They used to advertise in Sport Aviation but have pulled their ad. It sticks fine on fabric and fiberglass, but does NOT stick to aluminum (except the inside of my spray gun cup). I just finished stripping all the paint off all the large aluminum parts on my KF and redoing with a (toxic) epoxy primer and auto enamel (DuPont Centari). The water based stuff started peeling off in sheets after about two years. I don't know anything about the SW paint; it may be fine. However Stits (or whatever they are now) have come out with a water based paint, but the local distributor advises not to use it on aluminum. In the not too distant future we won't have any choice but to use water based paint, but until then I'm sticking to the most toxic stuff I can find and use my Hobby Air. And about the AKZO. Yes, it's toxic. Be careful about buying it from any distributor; AKZO no longer makes the stuff and you don't know how long these distributors have had it on their shelf. The shelf life is two years. It's good stuff though. Boeing and the old Douglas used it, and I have also. Mike Robbins RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RBusick505(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Workmanship Concerns (CHATTER)
<< You are the only set of eyes to keep your airplane safe, so let's not dilute ourselves by looking at their gliches and passing our hacks off to lightly. The above statement does not have to be true. I get as many people to look at my work as possible, from beginners to A&Ps. Bob Busick RV-6 Fremont CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminum
Date: Feb 16, 1998
>I am just about to finish riveting my HS, and would like to get off all >the black marks left by the rivet set. Should I use some sort of polish, >or should I just wipe it down with a cleaning solution like simple >green? > >Moe Colontonio >RV-8 HS >Cherry Hill, NJ Moe, I say, don't bother! Move on. The little clean up details can be done after you undoubtedly grunge it up during handling when mounting on the fuse. Hangar rash is a tricky lil devil...creeps up on ya in spite of your best efforts. Brian Denk finally skinning left wing. To back rivet, or not to back rivet, that is the question.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: scott <acepilot(at)mwt.net>
Subject: What exactly IS back-riveting?
I see a lot of reference to back riveting. What exactly is it and does it require different sets for the rivet gun and/or special bucking bars? Please reply off list as I'm SURE not everyone wants to see an explanation of back riveting! What are the advantages/disadvantages? Scott, Aeronca 11CC, N4181E...hence the no riveting experience :( -- Gotta Fly or Gonna Die ! --Ask me about my Aeronca Super Chief-- amended 8-29-97: Now after feeling the "Need for Speed", building an RV-4! No, the Super Chief is NOT for sale :) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Polishing Aluminum
Date: Feb 16, 1998
get off all the black marks left by the rivet set. I left all of mine the way they are. I am using Poloyfiber epoxy primer (no flames please) and the prep for that involves using a scotchbrite pad and some elbow grease. I think at that point my black marks will be removed. I also have some very fine buffing compound that I can use for any of the tough stuff. I plan on priming my empenage/fuselage/wings just prior to painting so I have to wait a bit to do this. Gary Fesenbek RV6AQ Electric Flap installation Roanoke, VA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
Date: Feb 16, 1998
---------- > From: Vanremog(at)aol.com > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Baffle Kit > > 2. A piece of aluminum was delivered with the instructions. It's about > 8"x11". What's it for?? >> > > Reinforcing the attach points using doubler patches as shown in the > instructions. > > -GV > GV- Thanks for the answer, but I'm confused. The "doubler patches as shown in the instructions" are completed and provided with the kit. There must be a use for an 8"X12" piece of aluminum. Is it to reinforce the area where the oil cooler attaches to the left rear baffle? One list member suggested that. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: Bob Reiff <Reiff(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Pro-Seal Application Idea
> Just thought I would pass along a technique for Pro-Seal application that I > learned about today from a fellow builder. Instead of the popsicle stick > method, he used a cake decorating bag, with the small metal reuseable tip. I have not riveted my tanks yet, but I have obtained some empty caulking tubes to use for the Proseal. I got them from a local industrial adhesives distributor who also repackages adhesives from bulk. Bob Reiff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
Date: Feb 16, 1998
After checking my baffle kit, it looks to me like the .040 material "was" used to make Part No. 10R-320 / 360 which is now pre-made with .063 (page 2 of instructions). It is also used to make retention clips on the RV-6 (step 6 of instructions), and a flange re-inforcement angle in place of 4RB for the RV-6 oil cooler mounted on the left rear bulkhead (step 10 of instructions). The rest of it is probably a carry over from when you had to make some of the other parts as well. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA >---------- >> From: Vanremog(at)aol.com >> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Baffle Kit >> >> 2. A piece of aluminum was delivered with the instructions. It's >about >> 8"x11". What's it for?? >> >> >> Reinforcing the attach points using doubler patches as shown in the >> instructions. >> >> -GV >> >GV- > >Thanks for the answer, but I'm confused. The "doubler patches as shown in >the instructions" are completed and provided with the kit. There must be a >use for an 8"X12" piece of aluminum. Is it to reinforce the area where the >oil cooler attaches to the left rear baffle? One list member suggested >that. > >Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Polishing (preping) Aluminum
>>Getting off all the black marks left by the rivet set.... > >I left all of mine the way they are..... So did I. I pri....uh.....put an undercoat on my -4 and prepared the surface, giving it some "teeth", by a light scuffing with ScotchBrite. I thought every little thing under the......undercoat would show: it does not. Prior to spraying, however, prep the surface with naphtha, MEK or some other solvent to make sure the spots aren't something on the metal the paint solvent will dissolve. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AKZO primer vs water based
>"Michael J. Robbins" wrote, "Tom; I'm posting this to the list as it might >be of interest to others considering using water based paints. >> And about the AKZO. Be careful about buying it from any distributor; AKZO no longer makes the stuff and >you don't know how long these distributors have had it on their shelf. The shelf life is two > years. It's good stuff though. Boeing and the old Douglas used it, and I have also. Just a comment on current production of what used to be Akzo, posted a couple of weeks go: Akzo was bought by Dexter Aerospace - the primer is still produced & costs $86 for a 2 gallon kit - sounds just like the Pratt & Lambert and is within $2 of being same price. Aircraft Spruce, a builder supplier, sells a 2 gallon zinc chromate kit for $100, same 2 gallon kit, probably the Dexter/Akzo product (call and ask). You can call Dexter's HQ at 847-623-4200 for seller nearest to you. You can call Sherwin-Williams's Pratt & Lambert factory in Wichita, KS, at 1-888-888-5593, Ext 130 Sally to find out the Pratt & Lambert sellers nearest you. David Carter, RV-6 HS, smoothing skin edges prior to priming & riveting to skeleton, Nederland, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Les, Thanks for the very complete answer. Where did you mount the oil cooler??? Bob San Antonio RV-6 ---------- > From: Leslie B. Williams <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Baffle Kit > Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 9:01 AM > > > After checking my baffle kit, it looks to me like the .040 material "was" > used to make Part No. 10R-320 / 360 which is now pre-made with .063 (page 2 > of instructions). It is also used to make retention clips on the RV-6 (step > 6 of instructions), and a flange re-inforcement angle in place of 4RB for > the RV-6 oil cooler mounted on the left rear bulkhead (step 10 of > instructions). The rest of it is probably a carry over from when you had to > make some of the other parts as well. > > Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > > > > >---------- > >> From: Vanremog(at)aol.com > >> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Baffle Kit > >> > >> 2. A piece of aluminum was delivered with the instructions. It's > >about > >> 8"x11". What's it for?? >> > >> > >> Reinforcing the attach points using doubler patches as shown in the > >> instructions. > >> > >> -GV > >> > >GV- > > > >Thanks for the answer, but I'm confused. The "doubler patches as shown in > >the instructions" are completed and provided with the kit. There must be a > >use for an 8"X12" piece of aluminum. Is it to reinforce the area where the > >oil cooler attaches to the left rear baffle? One list member suggested > >that. > > > >Bob > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WoodardRod(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminum
> I am just about to finish riveting my HS, and would like to get off all > the black marks left by the rivet set. Should I use some sort of polish, > or should I just wipe it down with a cleaning solution like simple > green? > > Moe Colontonio Hi Moe, I'm pretty much leaving mine the way they are--smudges, marks and all--until I'm ready for the exterior priming and painting sequence. The one suggestion I've heard over and over from painter-type friends and relatives (there is a difference) is that I should ABSOLUTELY NOT use anything that has any silicone in it if I try to clean up my finished parts. My brother-in-law will not allow things like Armour-All within 50 feet of his paint booth. When I restored my Cherokee, I found that the plexiglass spray cleaner I had been using contained silicone of some sort. Even after I completely stripped the metal window trim pieces all the way down to aluminum, we were still fighting fisheyes from the silicone stuff. My $0.02. Rod Woodard RV-8, #80033 [Champ time: 12.0 hrs; RV building 0 hrs :-( ] Loveland, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Where on earth is SK-52
Date: Feb 16, 1998
>He refers to what I assume is a drawing, SK-52. Any help on where >I might find this ???? >Thanks >Ray Lee RV6 (finishing wings at last) >Plainview, Texas > Ray Sk52 is in face a small b/p (dwg). There layout rivets patterns. find after the pictures in my book. There are small drawings. Don Jordan~6A wings~Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Mack" <donmack(at)allways.net>
Subject: Re: Where on earth is SK-52
Date: Feb 16, 1998
charset="us-ascii" I believe it is in the manual, either among the instructions or with the yellow page-sized drawings. Don Mack RV-6A donmack(at)allways.net http://www.flash.net/~donmack -----Original Message----- From: Ray Lee <mesa(at)lonestarbbs.com> Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 11:39 PM Subject: RV-List: Where on earth is SK-52 > >Working on Flaps (RV6) using F.Justice instructions. >He refers to what I assume is a drawing, SK-52. Any help on where >I might find this ???? >Thanks >Ray Lee RV6 (finishing wings at last) >Plainview, Texas > > > > > > > site, then we would wiggle the wings slightly while sitting on the foam rubber (the wings not us) to get the initial bolts to go through. Once the first few bolts were through, the rest fell into place. We have the pre-drilled landing gear, so aligning the gear in the mounts was very simple. Don Mack RV-6A donmack(at)flash.net http://www.flash.net/~donmack -----Original Message----- > >Don, > >I'm a few weeks away from hanging the wings for drilling the landing >gear. How did it go for you? Did everything go together the first >time? Did it take six guys all day? > >Steve Soule >Huntington, Vermont >Drilling side skins to fuselage >-22 degrees this morning ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
<< The "doubler patches as shown in the instructions" are completed and provided with the kit. There must be a use for an 8"X12" piece of aluminum. Is it to reinforce the area where the oil cooler attaches to the left rear baffle? >> In the "old" days we had to chew the baffle doublers out using our teeth. We also had to drive 5 miles to school and back in unheated cars when it was raining. It was a tough life. I swear, you new guys have it so easy. Use it for reinforcement of the left baffle for the oil cooler if it is .090" thk or more IMO. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminum
<< Should I use some sort of polish, or should I just wipe it down with a cleaning solution like simple green? >> There is a polish that comes impregnated in a cottonlike material called MetalBrite. It comes in a can. It is used to remove oxidation from metals. Some people with bare aluminum w/trim airplanes use it. Jim Nice RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowen.com>
Subject: Where's the scrap?
Date: Feb 16, 1998
For some reason I assumed there would be some scrap aluminum & spare rivets in the RV-8 emp. kit that could be used to perfect my riveting techniques before do the real thing. After inventorying today, I realized there are not. Any suggestions on where to get said practice materials? Aircraft Spruce seems to have 'bargain bags' of scrap plastic, tubing, etc - but I couldn't find any sheet aluminum. Thanks, Larry larry(at)bowen.com Advance, NC Starting RV-8 emp. - finally! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ferdfly(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Wing-walk Doubler-R-Wing?
<< s it still necessary to have the doubler on the right wing? Just wondering. >> I called Van about this some time ago, his reply was, "You absulutely need the doubler. F. Laforge RV-4 Mounting engine and cowling. In So Cal. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Where on earth is SK-52
Ray Lee wrote: > > Working on Flaps (RV6) using F.Justice instructions. > He refers to what I assume is a drawing, SK-52. Any help on where > I might find this ???? Have you tried looking in Van's Manual??? Gary Zilik reen? >> >>Moe Colontonio >>RV-8 HS >>Cherry Hill, NJ > >Moe, > >I say, don't bother! Move on. The little clean up details can be done >after you undoubtedly grunge it up during handling when mounting on >the >fuse. Hangar rash is a tricky lil devil...creeps up on ya in spite of >your best efforts. > >Brian Denk >finally skinning left wing. To back rivet, or not to back rivet, that >is >the question.... > I also wouldn't bother with the marks until final finish preparation, but if you want to impress all your RV friends with nice looking parts until that time their is something that you can do. To prevent the scuffing which causes the black burnish marks, put one layer of plastic packing tape on the rivet set (or back rivet bucking bar). Get the good stuff from 3M or Scotch, the cheap stuff doesn't last very long. If you do this you will have perfectly shiny markless skins on all your parts. If you are using a swivel flush set it still works. Just cat a small piece and fold the corners to the inside of the rubber boot. BTW if you want to really impress other builders, put a small piece on the end of the rivet set when driving AN470's. It will look like the rivet was set with a squeezer (if you don't pound a smile into it that is). Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: MoeJoe <moejoe(at)bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Where's the scrap?
Try to find a local scrap metal dealer. Your local A&P will definitely know where to go. You don't need aircraft grade to practice, anything will do. The stuff is very cheap too. Make sure you don't drive your first rivets into your airplane!! Practice first! I am reminded of this bit of advice every time I look in the corner at my "spare" HS front spar. Now a question to the list in general: I heard from a GlasairIII friend of mine who knows a friend of Van that there are 2 -8 quick builds ready to ship. Anyone else hear anything about this? Anyone have a price? Moe Colontonio RV-8 HS Cherry Hill, NJ Larry Bowen wrote: > > > For some reason I assumed there would be some scrap aluminum & spare rivets in the RV-8 emp. kit that could be used to perfect my riveting techniques before do the real thing. After inventorying today, I realized there are not. Any suggestions on where to get said practice materials? Aircraft Spruce seems to have 'bargain bags' of scrap plastic, tubing, etc - but I couldn't find any sheet aluminum. > > Thanks, > > Larry > larry(at)bowen.com > Advance, NC > Starting RV-8 emp. - finally! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: Marc DeGirolamo <mdee(at)dlcwest.com>
Subject: Re: Pro-Seal Application Idea
> >> Pro-Seal application he used a cake decorating bag, with the small metal reuseable tip. > >empty caulking >tubes to use for the Proseal. >Bob Reiff > >I found popsicle sticks too stiff. I used the little plastic handle which is used to hold the foam onto a `foam brush'. The blade is tapered towards the tip so you can cut it back until it is the right stiffness. My moto is the old KISS scenario, it worked great. I made several of different widths and shapes to get into all the little cracks and crevices. Cleans up with MEK. I like Scott M's idea of the zip lock bag to apply the proseal and then spread it with my plastic foam brush handles. Just my .02 cents > > > > Marc DeGirolamo -4 #3289 Saskatoon,SK. Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernie Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com>
Subject: Re: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing)
Date: Feb 16, 1998
---------- > From: Don Mack <donmack(at)allways.net> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: drilling thin tubing (spacers & bearing) > Date: February 14, 1998 9:10 PM > > > > > Anyone have any hints for drilling the spacers & brass bearing for the > >aileron mounts? They just spin in every clamp I can devise, getting > >rather deeply _scored_ (not scratched) in the process. > > > > Brian Huffaker, DSWL (huffaker(at)utw.com) > > President and Founder Friends of P-Chan > > RV-8 80091 Mounting 1st Aileron > > > > I took some soft, thick aluminum and made covers for my bench vise. Took > about five minutes and works great. Holds just about anything without > marking it up. > > Don Mack RV-6A (just hung the wings to mount the landing gear, does that > look NICE) > donmack(at)allways.net > http://www.flash.net/~donmack > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FASTER RVs Part 1
From: ron.taborek(at)flight642.com (RON TABOREK)
Date: Feb 16, 1998
I would like to suggest that we discourage people from making claims on the RVlist about speed improvements to RVs without providing adequate data to support the claim. I think we all waste time and perhaps money pursuing claims about simple little add-ons that make airplanes fly faster. You've seen them, they go like this. "ABC has developed a new Framus for RV aircraft that adds up to 10% to the speed. Extensive research, analysis and testing has led to exciting results. Pilots report that RVs with the new Framus can fly rings around RVs with dimples and vortex generators. The local F-18 fighter squadron is considering using the new Framus because they are tired of not being able to keep up with these RVs." "ABC has long thought that Van's design was too conservative. So, we ...(insert here a paragraph containig words like supercomputers, NACA WW2 research, Computational Fluid Dynamics, Monica Lewinsky, Roswell New Mexico, advanced NASA boundary layer research...etc). The new Framus was recently written up in several glossy magazines." Now someone who claims that the speed has gone up by a given percent (say 10%) may not realize it, but they are also claiming that the overall drag has gone down by twice that percent (20%) and the horespower required by three times that amount (30%). That is because aircraft drag varies as the square of the speed and and power required varies as the cube of the speed. Drag changes don't happen. There are reasons for them. Among other things it is a result of changing skin or cross sectional areas, weight or span, preventing laminar flow from going turbulent or turbulent flow from separating, or improving cooling. One might expect relatively big drag improvements on a badly designed or dirty aircraft, but the RVs are well designed, clean aircraft and large changes would be required to make large drag changes. However, who can argue with pilot reports that say " My RV is now 10% faster." Well, lots of people including me. I'd like to see the data from these flight tests and to see how they were carried out. It isn't adequate to just fly the aircraft, look at the ASI and say "Looks like 10% to me." The differences being looked for are small and the tests have to be precise. Even people skilled at making drag reductions, like Kent Paser and Dave Anders, sometimes have to test several mods at once to get a measurable effect. There are lots of ways for even a well intentioned pilot to go wrong testing. The before and after tests have to be adjusted for equal weights, horsepower and atmospheric conditions. It is no small feat to keep the aircraft from climbing or diving while holding course, reading the bouncing instruments and recording data. This is over and above outright fiddles and mistakes. So, having had my say, I'll make a positive suggestion. I,ll post a flight test data form on the RVlist as Part 2 of this note. You can check it out and perhaps those of us making modifications to our aircraft can use it to measure the speed increase or decrease more accurately and report it to the RVlist. Also if someone is promoting a new Framus we can ask them to post the flight test data to the list with their announcement. If someone isn't comfortable analysing the data, I, and no doubt others would be glad to do it for them. ron.taborek(at)flight642.com RV-4 Installing O-320 Toronto --- { Presentation of the preceding message was made possible by Flight 642 } { BBS. Canada's Aviation and Simulation connection. (905)642-2993 } { WEB Page: http://www.flight642.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)juno.com
Subject: Where's the scrap?
Date: Feb 17, 1998
>For some reason I assumed there would be some scrap aluminum & spare >Larry >larry(at)bowen.com >Advance, NC >Starting RV-8 emp. - finally! All your friends at the airport will have some laying around. The freight will be more than its worth to order it.. Local sheet metal companies maybe, like a/c ducting. Local EAA friends. About 8 rivets & you will be ready. Good luck. Don Jordan~~ 6A-wings~~ Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1998
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Flying
And to quote our esteemed leader re. flying: "Flying is made safer through our constant pursuit of PERFECTION, not pretentious statements and attitudes with the flavor of whistling in the dark." R. VanGrunsven This was in some past RVator. I don't remember which one, but it struck me as worth noting. Ron Vandervort, RV-6Q, wiring and doing cowl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvbldr3170(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Ivoprop
<< I would lose that prop asap if I were you......I have heard nothing but nightmares about the Ivoprop, including some fatalities...... >> I missed the original post on this thread, but is the prop referred to an in- flight adjustable model ? I have heard bad things about those but not the standard ground adjustable type. Just Curious Merle (you know - the Chevy guy) Miller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BSivori(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminum
Paul The Seneca is a 6 Place - Fred will be flying Right Seat I think but no I have not thought about other cargo. Will be in touch Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fesenbek, Gary" <gfesenbek(at)Meridium.com>
Subject: Where's the scrap?
Date: Feb 17, 1998
I didn't build an 8 but after building a 6 empenage, I did find there was a bit of scrap in the kit if you look for it. For example, there were two lightning holes in the VS that yield pieces big enough to practice on. This material will be .032 for the flanges I believe and .063 for the bottom flange brace. The HS flange (HS 801/802?? maybe)angles must be trimmed a bit and that will yield some heavy duty stuff (.063 plus) that is good for practicing counter sinking. As for rivets I can't speak to the eight but they do give you extra rivets because they don't expect you to get every one just right. I had quite a few AN470AD4-5s and AN426AD3-3s in the 6 kit. A note of caution that you may use more of the AN426AD3-3s depending on your countersink rule. My personal rule is if it ain't .040 or more get the dimple dies out the draw! Remember when you practice to try varying the pressure to get what you feel most comfortable with. At the risk of starting a Riveting Jihad, I rivet with the flush set at about 25 psi with a 3X gun. Gary Fesenbek RV6A Electric flaps Roanoke, VA -----Original Message----- From: Larry Bowen [SMTP:larry(at)bowen.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 1998 7:27 PM To: Rv-List (E-mail) Subject: RV-List: Where's the scrap? For some reason I assumed there would be some scrap aluminum & spare rivets in the RV-8 emp. kit that could be used to perfect my riveting techniques before do the real thing. After inventorying today, I realized there are not. Any suggestions on where to get said practice materials? Aircraft Spruce seems to have 'bargain bags' of scrap plastic, tubing, etc - but I couldn't find any sheet aluminum. Thanks, Larry larry(at)bowen.com Advance, NC Starting RV-8 emp. - finally! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Where's the scrap?
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Find an aluminum siding contractor for some scrap. Most gutters are .032 (some are .027). Who cares what color it is for practice riveting. -----Original Message----- From: MoeJoe <moejoe(at)bellatlantic.net> Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 10:54 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Where's the scrap? > >Try to find a local scrap metal dealer. Your local A&P will definitely >know where to go. You don't need aircraft grade to practice, anything >will do. The stuff is very cheap too. Make sure you don't drive your >first rivets into your airplane!! Practice first! I am reminded of this >bit of advice every time I look in the corner at my "spare" HS front >spar. > >Now a question to the list in general: I heard from a GlasairIII friend >of mine who knows a friend of Van that there are 2 -8 quick builds ready >to ship. Anyone else hear anything about this? Anyone have a price? > >Moe Colontonio >RV-8 HS >Cherry Hill, NJ > >Larry Bowen wrote: >> >> >> For some reason I assumed there would be some scrap aluminum & spare rivets in the RV-8 emp. kit that could be used to perfect my riveting techniques before do the real thing. After inventorying today, I realized there are not. Any suggestions on where to get said practice materials? Aircraft Spruce seems to have 'bargain bags' of scrap plastic, tubing, etc - but I couldn't find any sheet aluminum. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Larry >> larry(at)bowen.com >> Advance, NC >> Starting RV-8 emp. - finally! >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Caldwell" <rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
Date: Feb 17, 1998
How should you go about flaring the ends of 1/8 inch tubing? My Flaring tool from Avery will only flare tubing down to 3/16 inch. I'm using 1/8 tubing for my Fuel Primer Lines and Fuel Pressure Gauge. Appreciate any ideas. Thanks. Ron Caldwell rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net RV6A - Finish Stage we thought is that it would then lay flat on your work bench. However, this type of binding is considerably more expensive than standard "perfect" binding. If this is a feature you have found worth while, we will continue with it. If not, we'll switch to a standard method. 2] organization Now is the time if you have any comments on how it may be better organized as far as the sequence of articles, or what might be done to make specific topics or subjects easier to find. 3] mistakes If you know of any mistakes, or items that are no longer relevant such as people mentioned who no longer provide certain services, or defunct builder's clubs, etc... please let me know. 4] builder's clubs If you know of any builder's clubs that are not listed on that page, and should be, please let me know. 5] cover photo I need a cover photo for the 18 Year book. If you have a good quality and interesting photo of your finished plane (or planes) that you would like to have grace the cover, please let me know. I'll send a free book to the person whose photo gets used and discount coupons for everyone whose pictures we can't. Only thing... I need it within the next two weeks. Thanks for your help Andy Gold winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brad Bundy" <bundyb(at)infowest.com>
Subject: Ivoprop info
Date: Feb 17, 1998
As for your inquiry concerning the original posting of the Ivoprop; On 2/13/98, I had asked if there where any who had info or experience with the Ivoprop. What I received were opinions and "I have heard" . As I have learned again; It is easier to write than to research. I wanted data, personal experiences. I like the Ivoprop concept. I want to make it work for my airplane. It has been working well on other airplanes. Therefore I shall continue to research and in as much as I have the electric prop installed, learn from personal experience. I promise that as I gain final and sound data that if it be desired by those trying also to learn from facts the same shall be shared. As to the fatality concerning this same model prop, it seems that the owner/pilot may have just purchased the Velocity and did not understand the proper sequence for maintaining the proper torque on the prop bolts. So, how well do we need to know our own airplanes? Those of us who build/buy and fly experimental need to remember that they are just that. Flying any aircraft can not and should not be a carefree experience. If we have concerns we should have someone look at that, if we are not sure. Any further inquiries can be addressed to Brad Bundy bundyb(at)infowest.com Owner/Pilot, not builder but learner of a Chard 6 of the which I have much more "experimenting" to do. S/N 002 N48AC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brad Bundy" <bundyb(at)infowest.com>
Subject: Fw: Ivoprop info
Date: Feb 17, 1998
---------- > From: Brad Bundy <bundyb(at)infowest.com> > To: Rvbldr3170(at)aol.com > Cc: rvlist(at)matronics.com > Subject: Ivoprop info > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 9:48 AM > > As for your inquiry concerning the original posting of the Ivoprop; On > 2/13/98, I had asked if there where any who had info or experience with the > Ivoprop. > What I received were opinions and "I have heard" . > As I have learned again; It is easier to write than to > research. > I wanted data, personal experiences. I like the Ivoprop concept. I want > to make it work for my airplane. It has been working well on other > airplanes. > Therefore I shall continue to research and in as much as I have the > electric prop installed, learn from personal experience. I promise that as > I gain final and sound data that if it be desired by those trying also to > learn from facts the same shall be shared. > As to the fatality concerning this same model prop, it seems that the > owner/pilot may have just purchased the Velocity and did not understand the > proper sequence for maintaining the proper torque on the prop bolts. So, > how well do we need to know our own airplanes? > Those of us who build/buy and fly experimental need to remember that they > are just that. Flying any aircraft can not and should not be a carefree > experience. > If we have concerns we should have someone look at that, > if we are not sure. > Any further inquiries can be addressed to > Brad Bundy > bundyb(at)infowest.com > Owner/Pilot, not builder but learner of a Chard 6 of the which > I have much more "experimenting" to do. > S/N 002 > N48AC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
Hi All, I noticed that someone asked for some help on the RV-List, recently. The individuals that responded ON THE LIST did NOT even try too offering any help. Is the list a source of mutual help for RV builders? If you have an answer, please send it directly to LesDrag(at)aol.com Do not waste space on the RV-List. For my own personal response. I am sending the word "HACKER" directly to the unhelpful flame freaks, along with their response. IMHO, getting flamed ON THE LIST for asking for help is unacceptable to the person asking for help, and to everyone else on the list. Jim Ayers LesDrag(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
>How should you go about flaring the ends of 1/8 inch tubing? My >Flaring tool from Avery will only flare tubing down to 3/16 inch. I'm using >1/8 tubing for my Fuel Primer Lines and Fuel Pressure Gauge. Appreciate >any ideas. Thanks. Ron, you need a flaring tool that will accommodate 1/8" line. There are a few that will. I have the Rolo-Flair tool from ACS. It makes nice flares from 1/8 to 3/4. You can probably borrow one from a local builder for the few places you need it. Ed Bundy RV6A - Eagle, ID - first flight 11/20/96 ebundy@juno.com - http://members.aol.com/rv67em/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: MC-236 B-2
From: seaok71302(at)juno.com (mike a adams)
My ProSeal just went past the expiration date... do I have to throw it away...... It's really not called Pro-Seal.... I searched the internet for Morton Thiokol and eventually got the chemist who developed MC-236. ( the stuff Van's sells to seal tanks,... it's not ProSeal ). He said there are tests you can do to recertify and extend the shelf life in 3 month intervals a maximum of 3 times ( 9 months ) past the expiration date, presumably if you were building a CERTIFIED aircraft. The properties of the seal ( which will soon be renamed AC-236 because Morton Thiokol has sold this chemical division of the company, same stuff ) will be unchanged after the cure period. He said it might set up slower and run on vertical surfaces more than a fresh batch. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Acker" <n164ra(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Ivoprop info
Date: Feb 17, 1998
> From: Brad Bundy <bundyb(at)infowest.com> > I wanted data, personal experiences. I like the Ivoprop concept. I want > to make it work for my airplane. It has been working well on other > airplanes. Check the archives, there's quite a bit of first hand data and personal experiences. If you still pursue flight testing this prop on a Lyc, might I suggest a parachute and making sure both the engine and motor mount are chained/cabled to each other, and also seperately to the airframe, should a flown blade knock them off. Please keep the list posted on your flight testing. Rob (RV-6Q). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Baffle Kit
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Building an RV-6 with an O-320. Have baffle kit and oil cooler from Van. The instructions with the baffle kit, page 10, show the "RV-6 Baffle mount oil cooler air inlet". It appears to be only one half the size of the oil cooler. Is that correct or should the opening in the baffle be about the same size as the oil cooler?? Thanks for the help. Bob Cabe San Antonio --- "The opinions expressed herein are solely the author's and are not necessarily the opinions of USAA." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: MC-236 B-2 ( a.k.a. Proseal )
From: seaok71302(at)juno.com (mike a adams)
My ProSeal just went past the expiration date... do I have to throw it away...... It's really not called Pro-Seal.... I searched the internet for Morton Thiokol and eventually got the chemist who developed MC-236. ( the stuff Van's sells to seal tanks,... it's not ProSeal ). He said there are tests you can do to recertify and extend the shelf life in 3 month intervals a maximum of 3 times ( 9 months ) past the expiration date, presumably if you were building a CERTIFIED aircraft. The properties of the seal ( which will soon be renamed AC-236 because Morton Thiokol has sold this chemical division of the company, same stuff ) will be unchanged after the cure period. He said it might set up slower and run on vertical surfaces more than a fresh batch. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
>How should you go about flaring the ends of 1/8 inch tubing? There is a special flaring tool that just does 1/8 inch tubing and nothing else. I got mine from ACS, I believe. Kinda pricy, as I remember, but when you gotta have a tool............. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au>
Subject: Bernie Warnke
Hi, I am looking for a way to contact Bernie Warnke Propeller manufacturer. My apologies if the name is spelt wrong. Regards Les. Les Rowles Po Box 1895 Traralgon Australia 3844 lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au kit from banard aircraft components this does include the gold anodized pre built spar. He will take $4000 for both kits. He is going to order an RV-8 Quick Build. E-mail me privately if you know anyone interested. My other hanger mate is about to skin his RV-4 fuselage and wants to know if its best to top coat (color coat) the interior parts of the cockpit or just prime now and paint the inside of the cockpit later (after assembly). He is not planning on using any fabric sidewalls. Fraternally, Dave Hamilton RV-8 (fuel tanks) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: "Flying Phil's Circus" <sisson(at)ctnet.net>
Subject: RV6-200
I'm a newbie to the RV group. I just purchased a project from a guy that was started in 1988. I'm not sure of the fuselage type yet. That is whether it is a sliding canopy or tilt up canopy. I didn't have time to look at it yet and it is stored out West for about 4 or 6 weeks. If it is an unstarted fuselage as a tilt up, can it be converted and built up as a slider? Any replies will be appreciated. TNX Phil Sisson Litchfield, IL..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Ivoprop info
<< I had asked if there where any who had info or experience with the Ivoprop. >> Brad, Research is one thing. Flight testing a prop which has a questionable history is another thing. I have flown over 400 hours with IVO props on low HP machines. 50-60 hp. I was using one of his props on a 70 HP engine and a blade was cracking at the bolt attach when I caught it. IVO gave me my money back, but choose not to try to solve the problem. His first reaction was that I had failed to keep the torque correct on the prop. When I explained my background and techniques he quickly offered to give me my money back. Please check the archives and check the NTSB files before you commit yourself to flight testing this prop. A separated blade is not to be dealt with lightly. Bernie Kerr 6A fuselage SE Fla ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
>How should you go about flaring the ends of 1/8 inch tubing? There is a special flaring tool that just does 1/8 inch tubing and nothing else. I got mine from ACS, I believe. Kinda pricy, as I remember, but when you gotta have a tool............. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Mike Wills <willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil>
Subject: Flabob fly-in
Any of you So Cal listers planning on attending Flabob this coming weekend? If so, I'm planning on being there Saturday (weather permitting) and would like to get together with anyone interested. Maybe chat over lunch? Mike Wills RV-4 (fuse ordered) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Rich Tichy <fsi(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Props
Hi, I've been reading the Rv list for only a short time. Having read the last few letters about the Ivoprop, I also have a question about props. I would like to know who is and is not a good source for a prop. I think I'll stay with a wood fixed pitch but need some advice as to how to pick a good supplier. Thanks Rich RV-6 only 5% left to do. lockport, Il. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: gregg healy <greggrv6(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Steel HS Jig - LA , Ca Area (RV-6)
Greetings Fellow Builders, I have a percision steel jig designed for the RV-6 horizonal stabilizer for sale. It was built by Noah Peckler for RV-6 production. I recently completed my tail feathers. Please contact me directly. Gregg Healy greggrv6(at)dock.net Camarillo, Ca. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Acker" <n164ra(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Bernie Warnke
Date: Feb 17, 1998
> From: L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au> > I am looking for a way to contact Bernie Warnke Propeller manufacturer. My > apologies if the name is spelt wrong. > Regards Les. Les, The latest (Feb. 98) has the following contact info: Margie Warnke Propellors 3906 W. Ina Road #200-193 Tucson, AZ 85741 Phone 520-405-9309 Let us know what you find out happened to Bernie, and about the prop (I need to start thinking about ordering one too). Rob (RV-6Q). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)icsnet.com>
Subject: Re: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
>How should you go about flaring the ends of 1/8 inch tubing? My Flaring >tool from Avery will only flare tubing down to 3/16 inch. I'm using 1/8 >tubing for my Fuel Primer Lines and Fuel Pressure Gauge. Appreciate any >ideas. Thanks. > >Ron Caldwell >rlcaldwell@utah-inter.net >RV6A - Finish Stage > > Ron, One of the flaring tools that Avery sells will flair 1/8" tubing. Try to find a local RV builder who might have this as you only need to make a few flares. I used this flaring tool from Avery for my primer lines and had no problems. Hope this helps. Scott Gesele N506RV - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: John Ammeter <ammeterj(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
> >Building an RV-6 with an O-320. Have baffle kit and oil cooler from Van. > >The instructions with the baffle kit, page 10, show the "RV-6 Baffle mount >oil cooler air inlet". It appears to be only one half the size of the oil >cooler. > >Is that correct or should the opening in the baffle be about the same size >as the oil cooler?? > >Thanks for the help. > >Bob Cabe >San Antonio Even in SA, I doubt you'll need all of the opening. I've got an RV-6 with the 150 HP O-320 and put the oil cooler in back of the left rear cylinder. I only have an opening about half the size of the cooler and I'm hard pressed to get the oil temp into the green even when the temperature is in the 80's (it does happen here occasionally). I keep the exit side of the cooler partially blocked year round, too. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)seanet.com Seattle WA USA 1974 1/2 JH-5 RV-6 N16JA First flight August 1990 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: FASTER RVs Part 1
Ron, I for one enjoy hearing about all of the different ideas for speed. I personally dont care if they are substanciated or not. Lets face it most of us know you get nothing for free, so usually its not to hard to separate the fact from the bs. For instance if I used everything available to save fuel, EFI, Ellison TBI, Electronic ignition and so on I should be flying on about 4GPH right. Wrong! it all has to end somewhere, the engine absolutly will not run without fuel. The same holds true for speed. Some of these guys have come up with clever ways of squeeking out a couple of extra miles per hour here and there. A little common sense will let you know if the numbers they are claiming are possible or not. Usually if someone claims a 10mph incrrease for a single mod ( short of clipping your wings or adding more HP) its bs. A 3 or 4 mph increase hmmm could be. Here are 3 no BS tips for making your RV faster. #1. Build it straight and clean. #2. Keep it light (dont sacrifice weight for strength) #3. Run a strong engine with the right propeller. ( the correct engine prop combo is one of the most imortant steps) We are all big boys here, and I think most of us would prefer to make our own determination as to weather or not we want to believe speed claims or not. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
LesDrag(at)aol.com wrote: > > The individuals that responded ON THE LIST did NOT even try too offering any > help. My apologies, but at the risk of seeming to be a 'flamer', could you clarify what you mean? I think I understand you, but English seems to have failed you. > Is the list a source of mutual help for RV builders? It has been tremendous help to me, and hopefully I've been able to help others. Not only materially, but also for inspiration in those times when I've gotten discouraged. Not only that, some of the postings are just plain fun to read. > If you have an answer, please send it directly to LesDrag(at)aol.com Nope, I think everyone needs to hear this. > For my own personal response. I am sending the word "HACKER" directly to the > unhelpful flame freaks, along with their response. Again, I am not sure I understand your intent, but this seems hardly a punishment. Also, why "HACKER"? I *am* a hacker, in the old sense of the word, and am not offended by it. Why not "FLAMER" and be more to the point about it. It will have the same effect either way. > IMHO, getting flamed ON THE LIST for asking for help is unacceptable to the > person asking for help, and to everyone else on the list. Yes, yes, I agree with the sentiment. In a perfect world, the old hands on the list would be more tolerant of the newbies and the newbies would pay more attention to the guidelines published by Matt so that the old hands would have less to grump about. However, two points. First, if I tersely tell someone to check the archives (tersely in order to keep the posting small), some folks take that as a flame. Not having body language or voice tones as a cue, they assume terseness equals brusqeness. In other words, they add a meaning to the message that was not put there by the original poster. Second point. The list is a community. We have too many people for everyone to get along and yet we do - amazingly well. Still, we have the odd sorehead or two, and the role changes hands constantly. When I catch myself being grumpy, I try to apologize. When someone else grumps on me, I try to pass it off. Usually, it turns out to be crossed communication in the first place. What I am saying is that we are all responsible for our own civility. If you flame a flamer, you have just added to the flames, not made things better. If someone is truly out of line, let Matt deal with them. PatK - RV6A - hoping to fly the *friendly* skies ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4flyer(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Wing Jig Size
Can any one give me the dimentions of a jig that I can build all models of RV wings in? Do I have to have a different wing jig for each model wing? Any help you could give would be much appreciated. Eli Lewis, Venice, FL RV-4/RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: "David S. Hamilton" <hamlton(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Where on earth is SK-52
Hello everyone, I'll apoligize upfront for attaching this message to the previous thread. I'm new to this list and don't understand yet how this works. After my apparent failed attempt at a new thread last night, I'll try this method of launching a new message into cyber space. I have two parts to this posting. One of my hanger mates wants to sell his RV-4 kit and purchase an RV-8 quick build. He has completed about half of the tail and has the wing kit also. The work on the tail is good. His wing kit came from Benard Aircraft and includes all their quick build components including the pre assembled, gold anaodized spar. He has $7,000+ invested and will accept $4,000 for both kits. I believe this to be a good bargin for anyone starting out or perhaps about to order an RV-4 Wing kit. Please E-mail me privately if you know of any interest. My other hanger mate is assembling his RV-4 fuslage and wants input from builders that have been there. Did you paint the color coat on the interior parts of the cockpit before assembly or wait until later to topcapt these interior areas? (Please no Variprome debate!) Which method did you choose and what would you do if you were building again. Thanks in advance, Dave Hamilton RV-8 #80001 fuel tanks - arggggh! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Horiz Stab - repair of extra hole made when dimpling
I was whacking away with my Avery C frame dimpler on horiz stab skins, when one felt funny. Yup, the stuff I was using to hold my skin more or less level with dimple die had flex'd the skin up and off the die. So, I took a small punch and went arount the "extra" dimpled hole very carefully, a little at a time, and pushed the dimple out, finally using a larger steel rod flat on one end. Came out nice and flat, no mangling, and a tiny hole. So, I thought, I'll take this to a guy to weld a little spot of aluminum in that tiny little hole (it was on the "bottom" of the outboard tip). Well, I wish I hadn't. He was used to making shrimp boats and welding heavy aluminum. I asked him if his electric arc rig was going to blast a big hole in my skin, and he said, "No." He didn't tell me that he'd fill in the dimpled hole, about 3/4 inch away and leave a 1/4 inch pile of junk on both sides! I filed away and finally got that part of skin back to about .0323 thickness and put skin back on skeleton and back-drilled throught the rib's hole. Then dimpled the new hole. Well, The new aluminum layer flexed where the dimple depression started and separated slightly, making a small pit on each side of dimple. Well, Wish I'd just put body putty on it a year down the road when I paint the exterior. No one need reply to this. I've learned. Just passing it on to the next guy who makes an extra hole and asks himself, "Should I just close that hole as best I can - or take it to my local welder?" David Carter, RV-6 empennage (painting inside of HS skins tomorrow, riveting next day), Nederland, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
Well said. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: wmills(at)southwind.net (William H. Mills)
Subject: RV vs. Lancair Revisited
I know this was thrashed over a couple of weeks ago, but thought you might find this interesting.... A friend of mine who's an engineering flight test pilot happened to be in the Pacific Northwest recently, and while up there made his way down to Van's, where he was given a factory tour and the famous $40,000 free ride in RV-8 #2 (no, he didn't buy a kit on the spot...but he fully understood why most did!). He described the airplane as wonderful...one of those airplanes you just can't wait to go out and fly; fabulous handling qualities; stick forces and stick force gradients in the ounces category (surprise, surprise). As Van says...Total Performance. He came away very, very impressed (and he flies a wide variety of piston and turbine equipment in his work, including Beech's T-6A Texan II prototype). Later that same day, he had the opportunity to fly a recently (almost) completed Lancair IV-P (I say almost completed, as it lacked portions of the interior trim, a part of the planned avionics package, and interestingly, the pressurization system). This airplane had had plenty of $$$$ lavished on it, and to date the builder and helpers/cobuilders had invested 6000+ hours of construction time in it (!!!!!). My friend described this one as an airplane that he couldn't wait to get to cruise altitude so he could put it on autopilot! Handling qualities were not pleasant at all...and speaking of utility, yes, of course it goes fast...but the owner couldn't fly it to, say, Sun-n-Fun with one (1) other person and still take their luggage and other paraphanalia along (this is a 4-place, remember). My friend's comment: for about the same or even much less money (and certainly a lot less time invested!), you could go out and by a nice A36 Bonanza and have a real useful payload capability in an airplane that flies much, much nicer (albeit not as fast). There's lots more than meets the eye...it pays to look closely and carefully. Bill Mills Wichita ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
>Not stupid at all. You have to look at the plans closely but it does >show that the seat rib also should be curved to approximate the curve on >the arm rest. >Fear not builders if you already have skinned but didn't do so (My >personal RV-6A which was the first one I built has straight seat ribs) >the only effect it really has on the airplane is a different trim of the >wing root fairings. > > >Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. > Scott, I have heard that a straight fuse. side extending from the wing leading edge for the length of the chord increases speed. This along with a 'cone section' root fairing (a la Spitfire) will pick up a few free knots. Any truth in this? Is a straight seat rib better? Royce Craven RV6A Engine etc.... Melbourne OZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
<< The instructions with the baffle kit, page 10, show the "RV-6 Baffle mount oil cooler air inlet". It appears to be only one half the size of the oil cooler. Is that correct or should the opening in the baffle be about the same size as the oil cooler?? >> Bob- My cutout for the inlet (behind cyl 4) is the size of the finned area of the Niagara oil cooler that Van's sells except for a small triangulation at the lower inside corner clearing the cylinder fin rise in that area. IMO, this configuration enhances the air flow thru this cooler to the maximum practical extent for this particular cooler mounting location. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russ Rieber" <rrieber(at)inreach.com>
Subject: Re: AKZO primer vs water based
Date: Feb 17, 1998
FYI I work for an aerospace company that builds parts for most of the large aircraft companies (like Boeing...) and we use water based primers on aluminum all of the time. One thing we did find with the water based primers is they make steel parts rust! Russ Rieber RV-6 Just starting the empenage kit ---------- > From: Michael J. Robbins <kitfox(at)gte.net> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: AKZO primer vs water based > Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 10:20 PM > >...I used a water based paint, both primer and topcoats, on my Kitfox. It was called SystemThree and made in > Seattle, WA. ...It sticks fine on fabric and fiberglass, but does NOT stick to > aluminum (except the inside of my spray gun cup). I just finished > stripping all the paint off all the large aluminum parts on my KF and > redoing with a (toxic) epoxy primer and auto enamel (DuPont Centari). The > water based stuff started peeling off in sheets after about two years. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Where's the scrap?
<34E9153F.6826C6D8(at)bellatlantic.net>
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 17, 1998
>Now a question to the list in general: I heard from a GlasairIII >friend >of mine who knows a friend of Van that there are 2 -8 quick builds >ready >to ship. Anyone else hear anything about this? Anyone have a price? > >Moe Colontonio >RV-8 HS >Cherry Hill, NJ > Not true as far as I know. Their are 2 RV-8 Q.B. kits that are the Beta kits that I spent 3 lovely all expenses paid weeks in the Philippines supervising the assembly of. One was used for landing gear drop tests and the other was used for the FAA approval evaluation. I believe there are some under construction right now and with the sea freight delivery time, etc. it should be some time in April when we have some. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Helping? IVO PROP (Chatter)
LesDrag(at)aol.com wrote: > > IMHO, getting flamed ON THE LIST for asking for help is unacceptable to the > person asking for help, and to everyone else on the list. > > Jim Ayers > LesDrag(at)aol.com > Hi Jim First I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to flame anyone as IVO has had some bad press from some of the older props. Now having that out of the way, I know you have been having good luck with your IVO Prop, my question is the LOM engine being inline part of the reason you are having good luck? I would love to have a adjustable prop for my O-360 solid crank engine but the guys I talk to are still having bolt (or blade) loosening problems at the hub on the 0-360's, as much as I would love to have one of these props, I guess I am to much of a chicken to use one till some good solid data is in. I know the IVO prop topic has been beat to death on the list but I am still interested in RV's that have been using one, especially O-360's with good results. --- Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR jsflyrv(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: Where's the scrap?
> Any suggestions on where to get said practice materials? Aircraft Spruce seems to have 'bargain bags' of scrap plastic, tubing, etc - but I couldn't find any sheet aluminum. > Your local hardware store usually carries aluminum sheet. While this is not 2024t3 is works just as good for practice and is not to expensive.. Gary Zilik ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV6-200
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 18, 1998
>If it is an unstarted fuselage as a tilt up, can it be converted and >built up as a slider? >Any replies will be appreciated. TNX > >Phil Sisson Litchfield, IL..... > Phil, The answer to your question is yes. even if the fuse. was started you could still switch pretty easily. If the fuse was nearly completed you could still change but a little more difficult. If the whole kit was purchased before the early part of 1991 or so then it is in all probability a tip up fuse. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Ivoprop info
I agree with Bernie (from the post above --not B. Warnke), Ivoprops have a known propensity to throw blades in ALL their various iterations. My info is not of the "I heard" type---my Ivo did infact try to throw a blade and after initial attempts to blame me by Ivo, he refunded my money with no fuss and a whole bunch of very strange excuses. These Ivoprops have a failure history on every type of engine and aircraft they have been flown on and personal inspection of many by myself after my enlightening lesson reveals a similar trend toward failure. Do other props fail---yes but generally they are not as experimental as the Ivo. Let me repeat that I have seen failed and failing Ivos on a variety of installations from ultralights to Lycoming types--it is not heresay. An interesting near failure of a Warneke occured to an aquaintence of mine who had moved to Az. from humid Houston. Flying his modified aircraft in sportsman type aerobatics he regularly pushed his machine hard. About six months or maybe more, he was in a practice session when there began a vibration that got much worse---he reduced power and returned to base. Upon inspection he found the prop to be held on by I think only two bolts---the others loose in the spinner or gone.It is my understanding that the prop had not been retorqued since his move--I do not know accumulated time. I saw on the bolts that remained and those in the spinner considerable evidence of fretting and working over a long period of time--clearly the prop had not been maintained properly. Here,in this case ,we can well blame the owner for inadequate maintenance as was the case---Not the prop. Other factors may have been at work here also but it is clear that lack of proper mainteance is a large factor in this near failure and not the design of the Warneke prop. This was not the case with my Ivo or several others I have looked into--they failed due to inadequate design. It is not just our behinds at risk but that of our loved ones and friends as well---do you really trust them to an Ivo. Just my humble factual experiance. JR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Horiz Stab - repair of extra hole made when dimpling
Please do not weld on aircraft aluminum--among other things it ruins the heat treat, introduces possibility of intergranular corrosion,destroys the alclad , causes distortion and is absolutly forbidden. Next time you get an extra hole in 032 please double flush it or if nothing backs it up just put in an extra rivet. I am not sure where the skin was welded upon but most likely it is time to toss it and call it a lesson well learned. Not trying to ruin your day--but welding 2024 is never acceptable and is not an approved repair. JR A&P ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Bernie Warnke
<< I am looking for a way to contact Bernie Warnke Propeller manufacturer. >> Try him at 520-294-1166 and for future info of this nature see the Yeller Pages at: http://www.sound.net/~hartmann/yelrpage.htm -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: rv-4 kit bargin
> >Hey everyone I've got two seperate items. > >One of my hanger mates has decided to sell his RV-4 kit. The tail is about >50% done and the work is good. He also has a wing kit including the "quick >build" kit from banard aircraft components this does include the gold >anodized pre built spar. He will take $4000 for both kits. He is going to >order an RV-8 Quick Build. E-mail me privately if you know anyone interested. > >My other hanger mate is about to skin his RV-4 fuselage and wants to know >if its best to top coat (color coat) the interior parts of the cockpit or >just prime now and paint the inside of the cockpit later (after assembly). >He is not planning on using any fabric sidewalls. > > >Fraternally, > >Dave Hamilton >RV-8 (fuel tanks) > Dave, I am building a -6 currently, but I love the -4's as well. Your "deal" is tempting. What part of the country are you in? > > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Elevators - Wings ordered!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: "Anderson Ed" <anderson_ed(at)bah.com>
Subject: Re: to 16 YEARS OF RV-ATOR owners
Good product, stick with current binding - it is easier to leave open to a place. one suggestion - there is a lot of difference in the final gross weights at least with Rv-6s. Mine for instance loaded with two 170 people and 70lbs of lugage would gross out at 1750 lbs. Might be interesting to have a table of representative examples of different RV- finish weights. Ed winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com wrote: > > We are currently putting together the updated 18 YEAR book and would > like your opinion on a few things so that we may perhaps improve the new > edition. Your answers (directly back to us at winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com) > would be much appreciated. > > 1] type of binding > Past editions have used a plastic comb binder. The benefit we thought > is that it would then lay flat on your work bench. However, this type > of binding is considerably more expensive than standard "perfect" > binding. If this is a feature you have found worth while, we will > continue with it. If not, we'll switch to a standard method. > > 2] organization > Now is the time if you have any comments on how it may be better > organized as far as the sequence of articles, or what might be done to > make specific topics or subjects easier to find. > > 3] mistakes > If you know of any mistakes, or items that are no longer relevant such > as people mentioned who no longer provide certain services, or defunct > builder's clubs, etc... please let me know. > > 4] builder's clubs > If you know of any builder's clubs that are not listed on that page, > and should be, please let me know. > > 5] cover photo > I need a cover photo for the 18 Year book. If you have a good quality > and interesting photo of your finished plane (or planes) that you would > like to have grace the cover, please let me know. I'll send a free book > to the person whose photo gets used and discount coupons for everyone > whose pictures we can't. Only thing... I need it within the next two > weeks. > > Thanks for your help > Andy Gold > winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: RV6-200
> I'm a newbie to the RV group. I just purchased a project from a guy that > was started in 1988. I'm not sure of the fuselage type yet. That is > whether it is a sliding canopy or tilt up canopy. I didn't have time to > look at it yet and it is stored out West for about 4 or 6 weeks. > If it is an unstarted fuselage as a tilt up, can it be converted and > built up as a slider? Phil -- If it hasn't been started, then it's just a matter of sending some money to Van's to get those parts you don't already have. I don't know if this is a small amount of dollars or a large amount. But I would recommend you talk to people before you make a decision. The tip-up, while looking funny on the ground, has some advantages: 1. Unobstructed forward view -- no roll bar in the way. 2. A tighter seal to keep water away from your avionics. 3. Easier access to the avionics. Most of the builders I know are building tip-ups for these reasons. You'll be happy either way, so I recommend you think about it before going through the complexity of switching from whatever style you bought. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A20driver(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Bernie Warnke
Rob: I had info about two months ago that Bernie was suffering from cancer, and that his condition did not look good.. Haven't heard anything since then...My 3 has one of his props...TOP NOTCH!!!! Hope he recovers successfully....Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Scott VanArtsdalen <scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
LesDrag(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I noticed that someone asked for some help on the RV-List, recently. > > The individuals that responded ON THE LIST did NOT even try too offering any > help. > > Is the list a source of mutual help for RV builders? Yeah Jim, just ask about primer sometime. You'll get messages from both on and off the list from these holier-than-thou, been there done that types. I asked a question about primer and was told "Hey, WE'VE ALREADY talked about that. Pick one and get over it." I almost left the list because of that. If it happens again I will leave the list. I've been on the internet for about 10 years and have been a member of many lists, I'm not new to this. I know there are certain threads that keep coming back again and again. All the more reason to address these recurrent threads in more detail in the FAQ--or set up a web page with questions, answers, and perhaps a comparisson of options available. I know there are some that will say "It's in the archives, you idiot." Well, the discussion is in the archives but no conclusions. All that's there is, "I use this, I use that." Not very helpful. A web page or a FAQ section about primers would prevent almost all primer questions. Don't flame me just because I haven't "been there and done that." P.S. Thanks to those who responded off-list with helpful suggestions. -- Scott RV-4 Tail bought complete, Wings started ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Scott VanArtsdalen <scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
Patrick Kelley wrote: > > > LesDrag(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > The individuals that responded ON THE LIST did NOT even try too offering any > > help. > > My apologies, but at the risk of seeming to be a 'flamer', could you > clarify what you mean? I think I understand you, but English seems to > have failed you. This is exactly what he's talking about. You know what he means. Don't criticize his grammar. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HillJW(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
Speaking of baffles and oil coolers: has anyone tried building a cockpit controllable baffle behind (exit side) of oil cooler, with which to control oil temps in highly varying outside air temps? If so, how to build?? How well does it seem to work???? Thanks. hilljw(at)aol.com rv-8 tail kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Flying
From: Department of Encouragement Re: Flying Your Airplane There has been some talk on the list comparing the RV series to other airplanes, namely here lately, the Lancair. I am not one to say anything bad about any other airplanes (although I have my opinions about some of them). However, let me rant here for a second about your RV. You are going to LOVE this airplane. There are several airplanes you can fly that it seems you are fighting with constantly or that the AIRPLANE has just a little more control over the flight than you have at any given moment; they are not fun to fly. Sure, they get you there in a hurry, but it is hard to.....well, bond with the airplane. How many airplanes out there have been built and sit around in the hanger, not being flown? Not so the RV. This is one great airplane to fly. I can't WAIT to get up for the next flight. I'm looking at the weather constantly to try to predict if I will be able to get up four days from today. I come in from work and plug the oil heater in just in case I can fly the next day. 'Course, I love to fly anyway; but this airplane sucks you into the air like a love affair gone wild: can't wait for another flight. Bottom line: YOU ARE GOING TO LOVE THIS AIRPLANE!! Did I mention that already? Van disigned a great looking, great performing airplane that just happens to be an absolute joy to fly. It goes fast/slow without being "spooky". How can you beat that? No, I do not work for Van. He has worked for ME by giving me this great design to build and fly and I am proud to be one of his cheerleaders. Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q Flying (expanding the envelope) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4Brown(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: RV4 - Need a Mentor
Gentlemen: I have been monitoring the list for about two years. Occasionally I have even been able to contribute something. I am a good metal worker but there are areas of this project where I could benefit from a knowledable friend and confidant. I am looking for a mentor to consult with to help finish the power plant and systems portion of my project. The equipment ordered is as follows: - Aero Sport rebuilt Lycoming O-360 with Bendix fuel injection, electronic ignition, inverted oil and fuel - Hartzel constant speed prop I'm sure there are many lessons to learn. I don't want to make any serious mistakes and I certainly don't want to hurt myself in the process. I would like to discuss the following with someone who has completed and flown their RV4. I'm sure there are many items you would do differently if you built a second or third aircraft. - firewall equipment locations. - firewall penetrations - cables, electrical cables, fuel lines, etc. - throttle and cable linkages - fuel pumps/ fuel system - vacuum systems - electrical systems - oil cooler location and system installation I would really appreciate being able to meet with an experienced RV4 builder, pull the cowl and have some serious heart to heart conversations. If you can spare a little time, I would be most grateful. I'm located near West Point, New York (South Eastern, NY) and I am willing to travel to meet. Please contact me off list if you can help! Tom Brown RV4Brown(at)aol.com RV4 on the gear, canopy essentially complete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Acker" <n164ra(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV6-200
Date: Feb 18, 1998
> The tip-up, while looking funny on the ground, has some advantages: > 2. A tighter seal to keep water away from your avionics. The tip-up has a gap right above the avionics, which needs to seal each time the canopy is cycled (in fact, my Orndorrf tapes show how they fashioned "rain-gutters" of sorts to take any water over the avionics down to the fuselage interior sides). The slider has a permanently fixed and sealed piece of plexi over it, offering greater protection to the avionics. However, it does have a gap above your head, possibly offering less protection to the pilot in case of rain . > 3. Easier access to the avionics. Very true...but also readily fixed by making the panel removable (easy), or with subpanels (somewhat more difficult). Just food for thought...its gotta' be worth more than the unnecessary and sarcastic "ad nauseum" flame wars going on here. I'm wondering if we listers really are grown ups building real airplanes at times...scary. Rob (RV-6Q...BEATING on the rear $%^&#&@! canopy frame). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: donspawn(at)juno.com
Subject: What to order?
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Waiting on my 6A fuselage. Need to try & find which used 0-320 or I0-320 Lyc. Mr. Hartmann sent me the list of aircraft the engines when on. & the description on each engine. There are a lot of unanswered question after reading this items. Aviall lists Overhaul Manuals, Parts, & Service bulletins for about $165.00. Hopefully I can find out what suffix #'s, wide deck, hollow cranks, & tilted sumps mean. 1- Is this the way to go or should I get them from the factory? 2- If I find an engine with FI , would that be a problem to use? 3- What is Ellison TBI? Don Jordan~6A wings~Arlington,Tx donspawn(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)SagentTech.com>
Subject: RV6-200
Date: Feb 18, 1998
> >But I would recommend you talk to people before you make a decision. > >The tip-up, while looking funny on the ground, has some advantages: > > > >1. Unobstructed forward view -- no roll bar in the way. > >2. A tighter seal to keep water away from your avionics. > >3. Easier access to the avionics. > > Actually, I think the tip up is more likely to help *dump* water > into the avionics stack when opened, not provide a tighter > seal. The slider will provide better protection for your > avionics, and with a removeable instrument panel (or > portions that are removeable) easier access is probably > a wash. Just get a ride in both, then make the call. Both > provide *excellent* visibility, I don't even remember > consiously seeing the rollbar in the slider RV-6 I got > a ride in initially. > > For me, the main reasons for the slider are cooling > and cool. I hate being too hot. > > Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) > RV-6AQME almost finished with the sliding canopy... > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: spencer <dspencer(at)kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Pro-Seal Application Idea
We've been using the plastic baggie proseal technique for years at the heli service center I work at. We've found another neat way to do it too... We get big syringes (~1" dia.) at a veternary supply place and put the mixed proseal inside them. They work great. AND... we found that you can use compressed air to blow out the unused portion after it has cured, and get several uses out of each syringe. We use both techniques along with tongue depressors and popcycle sticks -depending. Scott N4ZW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cafgef(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Horiz Stab - repair of extra hole made when dimpling
<< or take it to my local welder?" >> As a welding engineer, let me assure you that the skins are NOT the things that you want to weld. Even if it is a good weld, the tensile strength goes to about half. Also the corrosion resistance provided be the alclad goes away. I have had cases where 2024 was welded but you wouldn't believe the development time and costs involved. Gene Francis, RV-6A with the baffling almost complete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
I agree wholeheartly. I have been on this list for 1.5 yrs. I can put up with the responses but some can't. I get frustrated on this list sometimes but I usually do get answeres to my questions eventually, I just have to ignore the B.S. and decide who knows what their talking about and who doesn't. Please Matt don't take this as a critisism I love this list. The archives do help sometimes. When people ask a question here they are going to still have to make a decision (just look at the response to a primer question) everybody thinks their way is the best. The final answere is there is no one way to do some of the things we do, be open minded, there are many ways to do things as well as many products to use doing them. Have an open mind, read the LIST and make a decision based on common sense. John L. Danielson Jdaniel343(at)aol.com Riveting wing spars / Rebuilding Trim Tab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DkSJC(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Pro-Seal Application Idea (Another one)
I used disposable cake frosting bags to apply ProSeal. They are available almost anywhere for $2-3. You use them just like you were applying frosting to a cake. gives a nice steady bead, no air bubbles and best of all --its both clean and cheap. Dan Helm -4 Still finishing up d the avionics area. As soon as you tip the canopy up dont you have the problem of water running off the windshield and down the back of the avionics as well as the avionics area open to the elements. I realize this area can be sealed off but the canopy doesn't do this. Go ahead - I'm waiting for the flame mail John L. Danielson Jdaniel343(at)aol.com Riveting wing spars / Building new trim tab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
Date: Feb 18, 1998
I don't know the source of this, but it's excellent advice for lists and newsgroups. "Be conservative in what you send, and generous in what you receive." When I run out of generosity for a particular flamer, I set my filter so that I no longer see his posts. Doesn't help the flamer, but it stops me from feeling annoyed. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC -6 tail ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter))
Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: [snip] > I've been on the internet for about 10 years and have been a member of > many lists, I'm not new to this. I know there are certain threads that > keep coming back again and again. All the more reason to address these > recurrent threads in more detail in the FAQ--or set up a web page with > questions, answers, and perhaps a comparisson of options available. Thats a great idea. There's only one problem: who's going to do it? Matt? He has his hands full already. I was the one who originally created the FAQ and have tried to maintain it to the best of my abilities but can't spend all my time on it, and really don't have the experience nor the incliniation to fully address some of these issues. I have requested input for the FAQ before but never recieved any input from anyone else. This is too bad because even though I have tried to be as objective as possible, and mainly provide answers that are distillations of postings on the list, I'm sure my personal biases have crept in there to some extent. Primers and Ivoprop are two that I just don't have the experience, time or inclination to address. If someone thinks they can objectively compose a distillation of the more fact-based postings about these subjects (or any other for that matter), I would be happy to add them to the FAQ. So who's going to do this? I nominate Scott VanArtsdalen :-) BTW, the most current rv-list FAQ is available in indexed HTML on the home wing home page, at HTTP://www.edt.com/homewing/faq.html. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric.Henson(at)cendantmobility.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Easy Access Panel
Hey Gang, I'm no where near this point but am day dreaming of panel instillations, lots more fun than my accounting job. I'm sure everyone saw the picture of the Young Eagles panel that removed in sections, as shown in SA magazine. Has anyone run across a set of plans for a setup like this? My blood pressure is too high to be hanging upside down under the instrument panel chasing wires. My alternate plan is to somehow hinge the panel so that the whole thing leans out on a pivot near the bottom. I would have to make fixed side pieces so that it will clear the canopy sill near the panel, of course. Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. Eric Henson RV-6 Slider (Wings almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Props
Rich, I will give you 3 of my favorite wood prop makers in my order of preference. Aymar Demuth, Bernie Warnake, and Ed Sterba. All of these guys are reputable prop makers. Sterba is probally the cheapest while Demuth and Warnake cost about the same. IMHO Demuth makes the most consitant prop. In other words if I bought a second prop from him of the same pitch and diameter the operational results would be the same as the first one. All of these prop makers can be found in the classified section of the sport aviation magazine under propellers. BTW I run a Demuth, when Its worn out I will buy another. One other thing, If you only have 5% left to go you better make up your mind in a hurry. Some of these guys will take up to 6 months to build your prop! They are very buisy. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: L & M Rowles <lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au>
Subject: Bernie Warnke.
Hi, Just few lines to say how sad I was to hear Mr Bernie Warnke is not well. Thanks to all responded. The purpose of my request was, that I could not get a response from his buisness and thought this was another way to get on to him. I had a few responses direct and must say this man is certainly well respected. I had no idea Mr Warnke is so unwell and wish him and his family all the best. Regards Les. Les Rowles Po Box 1895 Traralgon Australia 3844 lmrowles(at)netspace.net.au ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: angle-valve O-320
Listers: ECI, the cyl folks in San Antonio, are developing a new engine for the experimental market. It is a much improved 0-320, with what amounts to GO-480 barrels. HP produced on the dyno comes up to 175, but as much as 190 with good reliability. The lower HP version weighs about 5 lb more than the 160 HP lyc, and the 190 HP model comes in at 15 lb heavier (bigger rods). This is all I have now, and some of you may have heard about this already. Let's watch this one, as an exp engine might be somewhat cheaper than the Ol' Lyc-o-saurus. My understanding is that there will also be a certificated version (= larger bucks). Now, putting these barrels on the 320 is not a new thing- anyone can do it. ECI is also making improvements to the case, so things like cams and other internal parts will survive longer. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Re: Props
Date: Feb 18, 1998
---------- > Rich, > BTW I run a Demuth, when Its worn out I will buy another. > Ryan, Your message to Rich was timely for me. I also am about ready to decide on a prop. I'll have an RV-6 with an O-320, 160 HP. What are you flying? Engine? Prop diameter and pitch? How's your performance???? Cost?? Thanks, Bob Cabe San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4flyer(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Wing Jig Size?
I am trying to build a wing jig that will be compatable with any RV wing does anyone have any dimentions that will be of help to me? Eli Lewis Venice,FL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
>Has anyone tried building a cockpit controllable baffle behind (exit side) of oil cooler, with which to control oil temps in highly varying outside air temps? >If so, how to build?? How well does it seem to work???? Hey, JW: I have a setup where the oil cooler takes air off the back of the baffle behind cylinder #3, a 2 inch duct. That goes to a sealed aluminum frame bolted to the oil cooler (with the same bolts mounting the oil cooler) which is mounted on the engine mount. The back has a (slightly modified) 45 degree heater vent that Van sells which the door is controled from the cockpit. Clear as mud? How does it work? I have the gate shut completly and the intake closed off about 95% and the oil temperature has never gotten above 180. I have not flown yet in hot weather, but am not worried. On the plate covering the intake, I wrote: REMOVE ABOVE _____ DEGREES AMBIENT TEMPERATURE. I don't know yet what temperature I need to remove it. The hottest I've flown it in yet is 60 degrees. That is when it got to 180. I'm sure I will have no problem with oil temperatures being too high! I think it may be better to have air controled going in the FRONT of the cooler. That is what I am doing indirectly with the sealing plate. Hope this helps............ Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q Flying (in the cold Colorado air) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6ator(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Bad Crankshafts
A big problem has developed up here in the northeast involving crankshafts that were ground and yellow tagged by NELSON GRINDING in Bedford, MA. It seems that perfectly good crankshafts were being improperly ground using inferior tools. After numerous failures (2 at our airport Danbury, CT)., the feds investigated and shut the shop down. Our local shop had nine yellow tagged cranks on the shelf from Nelson Grinding, after magnafluxing all 9, 7 of them were found to be cracked. Our local FSDO is busy trying to figure out the best course of action, possibly issuing an A.D.. Both failures here occurred with less than 20 hrs. since overhaul. I understand the shop was in business for the last several years. I strongly recommend that anybody who suspects that one of these cranks may be in their engine, either check their yellow tags, or contact their overhaul facility. I know of at least 2 reputable repair stations that have installed these cranks. Repair stations are required to keep these records for 2 years and provide overhaul details upon request free of charge. Regards, Bill Mahoney Sherman, CT RV-6 N747W ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: AKZO
After the last primer war, I swayed back and forth and finally picked AKZO. I just received an AKZO primer kit and had a couple of questions and would like a response from AKZO users only please. You may respond off-list if you prefer(primer wars get ugly!). Here's some background on what I am doing. I plan to use Metalprep 79 and then Alodine before applying AKZO. I live in Oklahoma and it's always windy here and I will be priming outside. I have an Eastman paint/pesticide respirator with organic filters and also another pre-filter built in. QUESTIONS: 1. Give me some good ideas on easy ways to do the Metalprep and Alodine steps. I thought about scrubbing with a scotch-brite pad dipped in Metalprep, then rinsing with water, then Alodine while still wet. 2. Any opinons about using the respirator and spraying outside in the breeze? I don't want health problems. 3. Should I do one coat of primer or two light coats. Appreciate the help. Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok -6a Empennage ready to prime. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mitch Faatz <mfaatz(at)SagentTech.com>
Subject: Easy Access Panel
Date: Feb 18, 1998
>I'm no where near this point but am day dreaming of panel instillations, >lots more fun than my accounting job. I'm sure everyone saw the picture of >the Young Eagles panel that removed in sections, as shown in SA magazine. >Has anyone run across a set of plans for a setup like this? My blood >pressure is too high to be hanging upside down under the instrument panel >chasing wires. I am working with him directly to get this information (and more) about the removeable instrument panel on my web site for everybody. I for one am definitely going to take this approach! Stay tuned, it will probably take a couple of weeks to get the information from him Mitch Faatz San Jose, CA N727MF (reserved) RV-6AQME working on the sliding canopy... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Flyinghi(at)worldnet.att.net
Subject: Windshield Antenna
Date: Feb 18, 1998
In the directions for the Van's supplied windscreen antenna, it mentions installing a capacitor across the backs of the headset and mike jacks. I assume this is the grounds, but does anyone know for sure? Has anyone had problems with this antenna or does it perform relatively well for VFR type flying. Your replys appreciated. Charles Golden N609CG 6A Chevy Powered Installing Panel (Now I understand why people build aircraft with no electrical system) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)jps.net>
Subject: RV-4 Tank rear baffle
I just searched the archive and couldn't find anything on this. I was laying out the ribs on the rear baffle per DWG 17 last night and to my shock and amazement the dimensions used in the print didn't match up to the dimensions of the rear baffle. The dimensions from the print add up to 38.5 inches for the rear baffle, the actual rear baffle measures 39 inches. Does the baffle need to be trimmed or should I just alter the print dimensions to match the rear baffle? I hope that was understandable. -- Scott RV-4 #1054 Wings rgy in the cockpit is MUCH higher than if the antenna were outside in a more traditional location. Depending on the pedigree of various gizmos on the panel, they may object to the stronger radio frequency energy field. An objection is registered by waging needles, jumping digits, and various other behavior only while you are using the antenna to transmit. The capacitors across the jacks has to be a precautionary measure that may not be necessary. I'd install the antenna and then observe other cockpit hardware for degraded performance. Add filters and/or shielding to the systems that require it. Now, it may be that Van's experience with MOST intercoms is that the capacitors are needed and therefore suggests putting them on for every installation. Either way, the intercom is but one potential victim and you'll just have to try it and see what happens. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Paul Besing <rv8er(at)doitnow.com>
Subject: Pop Dimplers
Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies that are place in a pop rivet gun? Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? Thanks... Paul Besing RV-6A QB (197AB) Still Waiting on kit... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter)
>There is no one way to do some of the things we do; there are many ways to do >things as well as many products to use doing them. >Have an open mind, read the LIST and make a decision based on common >sense. > Right. This has to do with both answering questions, as well as remarking about someone elses answer (grammar, for example). This list is to help builders/flyers get their airplanes in the air, not a forum for showing everyone how much you know. If it will help a builder with something confusing (of which there are MANY), post it. If your purpose is to make you look like Mr. Boeing himself, sent it to your mother-in-law and go kick the dog. The LAST thing you want to do is discourage questions. Some of the questions we ALL had initially, looking back on them, were rediculous. Give the newbies the same consideration. Remember, this is a major source of builder support; in some communities (even some with active builder groups) it may be the ONLY source. Let's not ruin it. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: chris marion <flyrv6(at)cinci.infi.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List:Frederick Maryland RV forum
Does anyone have any info on the Frederick Maryland builders forum? Date, time, ect. thanks chris marion rv-6a wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Paul Besing <rv8er(at)doitnow.com>
Subject: Which Sets and Dies
Could someone tell me the following: Which kind/sizes of hand squeezer rivet sets do I need? (flush, cupped, etc) Which kind/sizes of hand squeezer dimple & dies do I need? Which kind/sizes of rivet gun sets do I need? (flush, cupped, offsett, etc) Thanks very much for your help with these confusing items! I am diving into my tool catalogs trying to figure out what I REALLY need! Paul Besing RV-6A QB (197AB) Still Waiting.... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowen.com>
Subject: Specific primer question
Date: Feb 18, 1998
All, I decided to go with the Sherwin Williams Wash Primer #P60G2 and Catalyst Reducer #R7K44, largely because it is listed in the RV-8 construction manual as being acceptable. When I went to the local S/W Automotive store (the same store where I was able to find the elusive GBP988 rattle-can primer), they didn't recognize these specific products by name. After some discussion they happily sold me some "E2G973 Vinyl Etch Primer" and "R7K242 Reducer". Does anyone have experience with, or opinions on these products? Thanks, Larry larry(at)bowen.com Advance, NC RV-8 Emp. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JDaniel343(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
I have a question for you users of the dimplers. They are suppose to get into tight areas but if thats so how do you install the nail? The nail is a good 1" or longer, with that much room needed I can get my regular dimpler in these tight places. Please help. Am I doing something wrong? John L. Danielson Riveting wing spars / building another trim tab ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
> >Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies >that are place in a pop rivet gun? > >Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? > > >Thanks... > >Paul Besing Paul, They do an ugly job but will get some places you otherwise can't. You need a set (1/8 and 3/32) but only use them where nothing else will do. Leo Davies 6A engine and panel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AKZO
Jerry, first, about using both "metalprep" and Alodine: When I did my research all the Sherwin Williams, Pratt&Lambert, and DuPont folks and their written guides for treating aluminum said it was one or the other. Either will prep the surface to improve adherance of the primer. I use PPG Alodine, after scrubbing with PPG "degreaser solvent" DX 330 and red Scotchbite pad to totally scuff away the shiney surface, then wash in warm soapy water and rinse. I always wear neoprene rubber gloves (durable to withstand scrubbing with abrasive pads, avail from PPG). I dry the parts before Alodining. The Alodine chemical "gets used up" after about two ribs if you dip parts in the same tub of liquid, so now I dip fresh liquid out of a cup as I "bath" each part for 1 to 3', keeping it wet. The stain/color change doesn't improve much after a minute or so. Rinse well and dry with paper towels or whatever to avoid mineral spots from evaporating water - unless you use rain water, which I happen to have. I use a standard "Sears?" 2 cartridge filter mask and it provides pure, clean smelling air when I'm scrubbing with strong solvent, mixing and spraying. I'm building in a 1 1/2 car garage and build a small paint booth on one side of garage with a window. Built the booth of 3 mil construction plastic tacked/duct taped to a few uprights. Put a hefty squirrel cage blower in window to exhause fumes and draw in fresh air to keep concentration of fumes lower. I paid PPG $180 for a DeVilbiss HVLP gun and use it with a Sears 2 hp 20 gal tank, with system set at 80psi and regulator at handle of gun set at 8 to 10psi, wetness 1/4 to 3/4 turn CCW from full "off/dry". It is 6 turns from full off to full "wet" but keeping it close to dry give you control and lets you build your coverage in 2 to 3 passes, where you can see what is happening. Gun has "round" pattern (use 1/4 turn from full off/dry) and "fan" or "flat" vertical line of paint (use 3/4 to 1 turn CCW from full dry), which I like to use as much as possible because you don't put on too much and get runs. I only used round today to reach out to places where I couldn't get gun close enough because of hose interference - but cut the wetness when I did use it. David Carter, RV-6 Horizontal Stab (rivet skins onto skeleton tomorrow), Nederland, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Easy Access Panel
This was indeed a slick-looking installation, and one that would pay dividends anytime something is upgraded or repaired. I went to lengths to make my entire panel removable (no sub-panels), and it was no easy feat, nor are the results as useful as I would like. It _can_ be done, but careful attention (read: after-the-fact rerouting of lots of tubes and wires) will allow everything to disconnect and slide out like one of those works-in-a-drawer Quasar TV's. It takes lots of Molex connectors, DIN and D- sub connectors, tubing clamps, etc depending on the goodies in your panel, and I'm not certain it will be installable/removable without _some_ upside-down-on your-back time hooking a few hard-to-reach items up. Keep a careful diagram of how everything goes together, including, where necessary a 1-2-3 installation sequence and you should end up with a truly removable panel for your efforts. There is a substantial up-front investment of extra time in doing it this way. I can only speak for the tip-up 6A model, BTW. Bill Boyd ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
<< capacitor across the backs of the headset and mike jacks. I assume this is the grounds, >> The cap is to bypass RF to groound, keeping it out of your mic and audio circuits. It connects from the hot (tip) to the ground of each jack's terminals. I don't think the PTT contact needs bypassing, but the mic and phones would benefit from this treatment if they are to be in a strong RF field from a nearby radiator (antenna). Hope this helps. Bill Boyd planning to relocate wingtip antennas to the (fiberglass) gear leg fairings- inverted-L style quarter-wave whips.... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
These dimplers are just for the hard to reach areas, it would take much too long to do the whole airplane with them! Von Alexander RV-8 #544 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Which Sets and Dies
<< Which kind/sizes of hand squeezer rivet sets do I need? (flush, cupped, etc) Which kind/sizes of hand squeezer dimple & dies do I need? Which kind/sizes of rivet gun sets do I need? (flush, cupped, offsett, etc) >> Try for starters: a few (at least 2) flush squeezer dies (may as well get different heights), plus one each for the AN-3 and AN-4 rivets (cupped). The AN-6's in the spar can't be squeezed, but you will need one cupped die this size for the Avery Tool to set those spar rivets. You will be dimpling size 3 and 4 holes (3/32 and 1/8") as well as the occasional larger screw head (100 degree) Start with the #3 and #4 dimple die sets and borrow/buy the rare ones later as needed. A 3x rivet gun will do all you need, but some folks who can afford more than one like the lighter touch of the 2x on thin metal. Get a good swivel-head flush set with rubber guard, and also a _decent_ back rivet set (the cheap ones are junk) For your hand squeezer, let me suggest the 2" yoke (the three inch will reach a few more holes that would otherwise have to be done on the Avery Tool (AKA the sheet-scratcher) but it flexes too much to squeeze a 1/8 rivet without cleating it over. You'll want a 1" yoke for really tight quarters too. No way aroundan outlay of about $2k for tool to build these airplanes right. If I had it to do over again I'd save time and frustration by shelling out even more for lots of really good tools!! Bill Boyd Almost finished! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Flaring 1/8 Tubing
If you are careful, an ice pick worked carefully into the end of the tubing will flare it enough for the nut and sleeve to grip it down onto the flare and finish the job "in assembly." My A&P taught me this trick. He's the guy with all the holes in his left hand ;-) Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Steve Mayer <S_Mayer(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Pop Dimplers
Paul, I've used the pop rivet dimpler, and it did and acceptable job dimpling some parts of my HS. However, I find it faster and simpler to use the Avery C-frame tool or squeezer to do the majority of the dimples in my aircraft. Steve RV-4 emp. >Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies >that are place in a pop rivet gun? >Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? >Thanks... >Paul Besing >RV-6A QB (197AB) >Still Waiting on kit... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Faster RVs Part 2
From: ron.taborek(at)flight642.com (RON TABOREK)
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Here is a relatively simple yet relatively accurate way of finding out if the Framus you added to your RV is speeding you up or slowing you down. GENERAL The pilot should fly two sets of tests, one without and one with the mod. Each set of tests should be done at two power settings at least, more are better. At each power setting the pilot should fly three tracks (not headings) 90 degrees apart, while maintaining altitude and other factors constant. The pilot should keep a lookout for other aircraft, keep constant altitude and track, note instrument readings and record the data in the form which follows. Having an observer/lookout and a tape recorder along is a big help as is testing in smooth air. Fly at any safe and convenient weight, altitude and temperature, as long as conditions are recorded. Your (at least) two power settings should bracket your speeds of interest, say 65% and 75% power. Doing the tests at the same weight, altitude and temperature before and after the mods will minimize subsequent corrections but is not really necessary. The data will be reduced to standard reference conditions. You will need a GPS, clock, ASI, altimeter, OAT, RPM and manifold pressure instruments and power/altitude charts for your engine. TEST PROCEDURE Before take-off record 1) Is airspeed to be in mph or knots? 2) Is temperature to be in deg F or C? 3) What propeller do you have? How many blades? What diameter in inches? 4) What aircraft? What empty, crew, fuel, oil and equipment weight? 5) At take-off record the time of day. When you get to test altitude, set the altimeter to 29.92 to read pressure altitude and record the time starting the tests. 6) Set the power level to be tested, fly at constant altitude and, when stabilized, record RPM, manifold pressure, OAT and altitude. 7) Fly a constant altitude and track using GPS. Record track, IAS and ground speed when the readings stabilize. 8) Without changing power and altitude slowly turn left or right to a track 90 deg from the first and again record track, IAS and ground speed. 9) Without changing power and altitude, turn another 90 deg in the same direction (you are on the reciprocal of your first track) and record track, IAS and ground speed again. 10) Record the time the tests were completed and the maximum altitude deviation which occurred. Tests for this power setting have now been completed. Repeat steps 6) to 11) with the next power setting. 12) When tests at all power settings are complete, reset altimeter before landing. 13) Make the modifications to be tested and repeat steps 1) to 12). At this point you will have at least two sets of speed and power data before the mods and two after, ready for analysis. Part 3 will describe the analysis. Testing requires a lot of attention inside the cockpit. Remember a "heads up" as well. ron.taborek(at)flight642.com RV-4 Installing O-320 Toronto ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Morrissey, John" <John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Pop Dimplers
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Hi Paul, definitely only for those hard to reach areas. Cheers John Morrissey > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Besing [SMTP:rv8er(at)doitnow.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 1998 12:42 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Pop Dimplers > > > Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and > dies > that are place in a pop rivet gun? > > Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach > areas? > > > Thanks... > > Paul Besing > RV-6A QB (197AB) > Still Waiting on kit... > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Blake Harral <bharral(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
Paul Besing wrote: > > Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers .. Paul, I have found the pop rivet dimplers _far_ inferior to the regular dimple dies, both in terms of the quality of the result and ease-of-use. There are a few places on the airframe where the pop rivet dimplers are the only solution, but I consider it a last resort. I have peeked ahead to your next post about riveting tools in general. You are going to get a variety of recommendations. I believe a craftsman with a little patience could build an entire RV with no more riveting tools than a 3X gun, flush and 1/8" cupped rivet sets, and a couple (well, OK 3 to 5) bucking bars. At the other end of the scale, there are one or two builders that have had custom yokes made ( 3/4" thick steel, 24" throat, cost $500+ dollars) for squeezing rivets in the skins of the flying surfaces, although a majority of us (and no doubt Van himself) consider this downright silly. It appears to me that the typical RV "lister" (myself included), is somewhat of a "tool junkie" who welcomes an excuse to spend $10-$50 for that nifty tool that we "need" to finish our airplanes. I consider a quality hand squeezer (Avery or Tatco) at $100+ to be a wise investment, but I balk at $400 for a pneumatic squeezer. Yet there are some folks who can't live without one. With a little patience, you can build a safe and even very pretty RV with no more than the minimal set of tools listed in Van's construction manuals. More and better tools make the going a little easier, but it seems builder tool "requirements" are determined more by personality and financial status than by anything else (perhaps this applies to primers as well!). I noticed from an earlier post that you are in Scottsdale. I live in the near Tatum and Bell (about 2 miles north of Paradise Valley Mall). Regards, Blake Harral ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Acker" <n164ra(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Which Sets and Dies
Date: Feb 18, 1998
> From: Paul Besing <rv8er(at)doitnow.com> > I am diving into my tool catalogs trying to figure out what I REALLY need! > Paul Besing Paul, It sounds like you have lots of tool questions. I compiled my QB tool research into an Excel spreadsheet I would be glad to provide to anyone on request. Mind you it, and its prices, are dated 8/96 so you will need to do some updating on your own. However, I have used *every* tool (and then some) on it so it should be a good starting point (for std. kit builders as well since you basically need the same stuff). Rob (RV-6Q). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: Will Cretsinger <cretsinger(at)startext.net>
Subject: Re: Props
> One other thing, If you only have 5% left to go you better make up your mind > in a hurry. Some of these guys will take up to 6 months to build your prop! > They are very busy. Prop business must be good...today I learned of a three month delay on my Sensenich metal prop ordered from Van.... Will Cretsinger, Arlington, TX, -6A cowl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
From: ebundy(at)juno.com (Ed Bundy)
>In the directions for the Van's supplied windscreen antenna, it >mentions installing a capacitor across the backs of the headset and mike jacks. >I assume this is the grounds, but does anyone know for sure? Has anyone >had problems with this antenna or does it perform relatively well for VFR >type flying. I know some people don't like that antenna, but I have used it for over a year and it works great. Plenty of range, cheap, light weight and NO drag. All of my favorite things. I too inquired about the caps and was told that some installations don't need it while others do, and to try it without them first. Mine works fine without them. I'm not sure exactly how they are wired if necessary though. Ed Bundy RV6A - Eagle, ID - first flight 11/20/96 ebundy@juno.com - http://members.aol.com/rv67em/ - _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
>Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies >that are place in a pop rivet gun? > >Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? Hey, Paul: I have a set for both AN-3 and AN-4 rivets. Came in handy many times in tight and just plain goofy spaces. Even though they were supposed to be for the angle of a pulled rivet, I don't think they were: more for the standard rivets, but work for the pulled. I would recommend them only for occasional use and not the whole airplane. Michael arry. I used the P60G2 and it worked very well. Tough as nails, and easy to shoot. I'm not familiar with the Vinyl Etch primer, and I would contact another SW distributor to see if you can find the P60G2. Ed Bundy RV6A - Eagle, ID - first flight 11/20/96 ebundy@juno.com - http://members.aol.com/rv67em/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: "Flying Phil's Circus" <sisson(at)ctnet.net>
Subject: rv6-200
Now the other question.. Read my posting from yesterday and you will see question about windshields. Tip-up or slide. In the project I bought, it had an IO-360-A1B engine. Vans does not like these types of conversions and I understand why. Specifically, he designed an aircraft for certain engines and to deviate means he was not involved in the testing. He should have been. But I have to use what I have. Therefore I need input from those of you who have an RV6 with 200 hp in it. what I want to know is things like W&B, any structural mods needed to be done, operating parameters, etc... Tnx Phil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Specific primer question
Date: Feb 18, 1998
I was told by my local distributor that these are one and the same. It also looks the same as the QB primer when applied, if mixed at the 2-1 ratio Van's suggests. If you don't put enough reducer in it, it will come out stringy. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >All, > >I decided to go with the Sherwin Williams Wash Primer #P60G2 and Catalyst Reducer #R7K44, largely because it is listed in the RV-8 construction manual as being acceptable. When I went to the local S/W Automotive store (the same store where I was able to find the elusive GBP988 rattle-can primer), they didn't recognize these specific products by name. After some discussion they happily sold me some "E2G973 Vinyl Etch Primer" and "R7K242 Reducer". > >Does anyone have experience with, or opinions on these products? > >Thanks, > >Larry >larry(at)bowen.com >Advance, NC >RV-8 Emp. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: less_drag(at)juno.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Re: Ivoprop info
writes: (Snip) >If we have concerns we should have someone look at that, >if we are not sure. >Any further inquiries can be addressed to >Brad Bundy >bundyb(at)infowest.com >Owner/Pilot, not builder but learner of a Chard 6 of the which >I have much more "experimenting" to do. >S/N 002 >N48AC Hi Brad, Great posting. I tried to send you an answer on AOL, but it was returned. Thin the Aileron Trailing Edge on the Light Wing to get them in balance. Just a little bit at a time. Or with a rubber mallet, bump the Aileron Trailing Edge Bigger on the Heavy Wing, if your trailing edge radius is already 3/16" diameter or less. Jim Ayers LesDrag(at)aol.com Less_Drag(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JRWillJR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re:Tool sources
Avery and Cleveland have always been my favorites but at Copperstate I met a very nice man who has a company called Airbolt. He has some very nice tools and some excellent dimple sets at very good prices. He had a number of nifty angle drills and an expensive (to me) c- frame tool for adaptation to the pneumatic squeezers we all seem to have or want. For example his 6pc #6-8-10 screw dimple set was 67.75$. Anyway, he is just another source for that special tool you just have to have. His number is 800-736-4123. He is a Kfox 3 builder and seems knoweledgeable in our RV sheetmetal needs also. JR ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 6A Tanked at Last
Date: Feb 18, 1998
From: "William H. Watson" <wmwatson(at)earthlink.net>
I'm just about finished with the 6A left fuel tank; here are my thoughts for those who haven't reached this point and who may have some trepidation or concerns. General: Be extra careful with rib preparation and later with drilling alignment - you don't want to deal with edge problems here. I used an ice pick to get spot-on alignment. Study the drawing carefully as there are some really critical alignments and edge placements you want to achieve. Set the depth of your machine countersink tool so that the heads will be flush, especially under gaskets. Specifics: The Cleveland "tank" dimple dies really work well; all my rivets are nice and flush. You've heard this many times: get the Avery swivel mushroom riveting head. I did the whole tank alone, with no smileys. Using the riveting cradle is essential. Notice that the rivet spacing on the root and outer rib/baffle are different than the interior ribs (I didn't). The welding brush from Avery does a nice job of scuffing the aluminum; IMHO, scotch bright pads alone are not aggressive enough. I suggest doing the root rib as a single session; it's not worth rushing. It took some doing, but pull the skin down to the 1" seam line, front and back. If you don't, you will have plate nuts and rivets with nasty edge problems on the spar doubler, tank baffle, and main spar. My sender goes from 30 to 200 ohms (not per drawing) and has a dead zone at the empty end of the range. I'm using 5 inches for the second bend ( much more than the drawing). BTW, the black death/pro-seal is not that bad, just don't try to be a perfectionist on the inside of the tank (seal it up, then show your friends). Have fun. Bill Watson 6A Left Wing Mountain View CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvator97(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: bleeding brake lines!#*!*#
Would appreciate any advice on filling and bleeding air out of the brake lines. I am not having very good luck! Purchased one of the bleeder tanks from A/C Spruce. Seems to work well enough, pumps up to about 80psi. This is attached to the port on the bottom of the brake unit and the fluid is pumped up through the system and into the resevoir. The problem is that each time I do this procedure, and have the fluid flowing good, with no visible bubbles, as soon as I shut the pump off and close the port I get fairly good size air bubbles(pockets) in the filler lines. These are the plastic lines that go from the master cylinder to the resevoir. The brakes work good and feel normal,(not mushy). Any thoughts? Walt RV-6A #21611 (Inspection scheduled for this Sunday!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: f-615 seat rib RV-6A
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 19, 1998
>>Not stupid at all. You have to look at the plans closely but it does >>show that the seat rib also should be curved to approximate the curve >on >>the arm rest. >>Fear not builders if you already have skinned but didn't do so (My >>personal RV-6A which was the first one I built has straight seat >ribs) >>the only effect it really has on the airplane is a different trim of >the >>wing root fairings. >> >> >>Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. >> >Scott, >I have heard that a straight fuse. side extending from the wing >leading edge >for the length of the chord increases speed. This along with a 'cone >section' root fairing (a la Spitfire) will pick up a few free knots. >Any >truth in this? Is a straight seat rib better? > > >Royce Craven >RV6A Engine etc.... >Melbourne OZ > > > > I don't know about the speed increase or whether curved is better, but leaving the rib straight wont really give you a straight side any way. The armrest is curved the same as the upper longeron, so trying to keep the rib straight (it gets curved by the skin somewhat) doesn't really happen. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 19, 1998
>> >>Is that correct or should the opening in the baffle be about the same >size >>as the oil cooler?? >> >>Thanks for the help. >> >>Bob Cabe >>San Antonio > >Even in SA, I doubt you'll need all of the opening. I've got an RV-6 >with >the 150 HP O-320 and put the oil cooler in back of the left rear >cylinder. >I only have an opening about half the size of the cooler and I'm hard >pressed to get the oil temp into the green even when the temperature >is in >the 80's (it does happen here occasionally). I keep the exit side of >the >cooler partially blocked year round, too. > > > >John Ammeter >ammeterj(at)seanet.com >Seattle WA USA >1974 1/2 JH-5 >RV-6 N16JA >First flight August 1990 > > > >From what I have seen with different RV's the one thing I know is that they are all different. A lot of factors effect the oil temp. How hard or easy you run the engine, and at how high of RPM. I have also noticed that most of the oil cooling systems in RV's have a critical (for lack of any other description) OAT. Any temp above this produces a higher steady oil temp. For some RV's the difference between 85 F. and 95 F. can produce much more than a 10 deg jump in oil temp. My personal recommendation to builders is to design for the maximum cooling available (unless you live somewhere that rarely gets above 80 deg. and you are sure you will never go anywhere that does) and adjust as needed for your conditions/situation later. The ultimate test isn't even just flying in higher temps but is a situation as follows... Flying on a cross country trip on a rather hot day. Need to stop for fuel in lets say Gallupe (spell?) New Mexico. Elevation is around 5700 ft. or so. You are on the ground long enough to stretch and get fuel (30 minutes) so the engine gets well heat soaked. You taxi for takeoff with the density altitude beyond 10,000 ft. The take off is no problem (even with 160 HP and a fixed pitch prop) but as you climb through 8500 ft you happen to glance at the oil temp. Woe, I've never seen it that high before... It would be very common for a lot of RV's (using maximum oil cooling) to have an oil temp of 230 - 235 deg at the end of the climb to altitude. Yes, possibly even an RV that wont even get to 180 deg when the ground elevation temp is 60 deg. Don't build yourself short. It's a lot easier to reduce the cooling when you need to than it is improve it. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Re: Easy Access Panel
Eric, I have just completed a panel for slider type RV-6 that hinges the basic six flight instruments to the left, and six other (fuel, volts,amps,oil temp, oil press) instruments down. The tach, MAP, G-meter, vacuum gage, egt/cht are all 2 1/4 gages, in a line above the basic six flight instruments. Therefore all instruments are either accessable by being hinged themselves or by being positioned around the perimeter of the hinged opening. If you are interested in more detail I'll send you a layout sketch if you send me your address. Ron Vandervort, RV-6Q ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Pop Dimplers
Date: Feb 19, 1998
I use them in the hard-to-reach areas and the regular dimple dies everywhere else. The regular dies do a better job. Steve Soule Huntington, Vermont Fitting side skins to the fuselage -----Original Message-----Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies that are place in a pop rivet gun? Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)traveller.com>
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
John, You are probably referring to the tip rivet holes on aileron and elevator ribs, etc. The method I use is to just bend the rib flanges apart enough to insert the nail. Set both opposing dimples, remove the nail, then use the hand seamer to realign the flanges as necessary. I have been able to reach all rivet holes using this method. Crude but effective.... Sam Buchanan (riveting spars.......oh, my aching knees....) sbuc(at)traveller.com "The RV Journal" http://www.ath.tis.net/~sbuc/rv6 JDaniel343(at)aol.com wrote: > > > I have a question for you users of the dimplers. > They are suppose to get into tight areas but if thats so how do you install > the nail? > The nail is a good 1" or longer, with that much room needed I can get my > regular dimpler in these tight places. Please help. Am I doing something > wrong? > > John L. Danielson > > Riveting wing spars / building another trim tab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cabe" <robert.cabe(at)usaa.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Kit
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Scott, Thanks for the excellent answer on oil cooler installation. Bob Cabe San Antonio ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
> >>In the directions for the Van's supplied windscreen antenna, it >>mentions installing a capacitor across the backs of the headset and mike >jacks. >>I assume this is the grounds, but does anyone know for sure? Has anyone > >>had problems with this antenna or does it perform relatively well for >VFR >>type flying. > > > >I know some people don't like that antenna, but I have used it for over a >year and it works great. Plenty of range, cheap, light weight and NO >drag. All of my favorite things. I too inquired about the caps and was >told that some installations don't need it while others do, and to try it >without them first. Mine works fine without them. I'm not sure exactly >how they are wired if necessary though. You would need one capacitor per jack. On the microphone jack, it is wired from the ground (sleeve) terminal to the microphone (ring) terminal of the jack. On the head sets, it's wired from ground (sleeve) terminal and the hot (tip) terminal . . . if you have stereo headsets, there will be an extra channel (ring) terminal which will need a capactor to ground too. The capacitors are tiny . . . about the size of a match head with itty-bitty leads. Not difficult to add. I'll echo Ed's advice and suggest adding NO filters on any system until you know that you need them. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Eckstein" <eckstein@net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
Date: Feb 19, 1998
The nail is a good 1" or longer, with that much room needed I can get my > regular dimpler in these tight places. Please help. Am I doing something > wrong? For the really tight spots I have used two methods: 1. cut the nail head off and use a vice grip to hold the female die in place. 2. squeeze the dies together with pliers (no nail) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
>planning to relocate wingtip antennas to the (fiberglass) gear leg fairings- >inverted-L style quarter-wave whips.... Oops! The Bob Archer style wingtip antennas are predominately horizontally polarized . . . optimum for VOR/LOC service. The 1/4 wave antenna on the gear leg will be predominately vertically polarized, more suitable for for COM use. It's true that from altitude, a wet string hung over the side of the cockpit will function at some performance level as an antenna but if one is concerned for the details, wingtip antennas are an apples-for-oranges replacement for vertical spike antennas. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PhilipR920(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: RMD Aircraft Lighting
I called subject this date @ 503-681-0685 and get message "line is no longer in service...." Anyone know another number or status of RMD ? Phil Rogerson 6AQ 60057 Fernandina Beach, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Gene Gottschalk <Gene.A.Gottschalk.1(at)gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Frederick Maryland RV forum
Chris and other interested Listers, The Frederick Maryland EAA Chapter 524 regrets to announce that the RV Forum has been canceled. Due to declining enrollment and finical losses incurred over the past few years we can no longer afford to hold the forum. We felt that because of the growing number of more locally sponsored RV forums and other sources of information dissemination (such as this great list), the number of participants would continue to decline. We are, however, sponsoring the Alexander Sport Air Workshop one or two times a year. These seminars have a metal workshop for those that wish to gain actual hands on experience with aluminum airplane construction. Check http://www.sportair.com/ for information and dates. June 13 & 14 is the next scheduled workshop date for Frederick, Maryland. -Gene Gottschalk EAA Chapter 524 Frederick, Maryland > >Does anyone have any info on the Frederick Maryland builders forum? >Date, time, ect. >thanks > >chris marion >rv-6a wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack K. Holley" <jkholley(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Which Sets and Dies
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Importance: Normal > > I compiled my QB tool research into an Excel spreadsheet I would be glad to > provide to anyone on request. Mind you it, and its prices, are dated 8/96 > so you will need to do some updating on your own. > I am starting to tool up for an RV6. If you don't mind, I'd like a copy of that spreadsheet. Thanks! Jack K. Holley jkholley(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "VanArtsdalen, Scott" <scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Helping? or Hacking?? (Chatter))
Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: [snip] > I've been on the internet for about 10 years and have been a member of > many lists, I'm not new to this. I know there are certain threads that > keep coming back again and again. All the more reason to address these > recurrent threads in more detail in the FAQ--or set up a web page with > questions, answers, and perhaps a comparisson of options available. Thats a great idea. There's only one problem: who's going to do it? Matt? He has his hands full already. I was the one who originally created the FAQ .... Agreed about Matt and I commend you for your work. I have requested input for the FAQ before but never recieved any input from anyone else. This is a big problem. New guys want to know about primer. Old guys already have selected their primer for whatever reason and don't want to hear any more about it. If no one wants to contribute to a FAQ on this subject then the old guys are going to have to get used to the fact (faqt?) that these questions will arise again and again and again and..... Primers and Ivoprop are two that I just don't have the experience, time or inclination to address. If someone thinks they can objectively compose a distillation of the more fact-based postings about these subjects (or any other for that matter), I would be happy to add them to the FAQ. I probably have even less experience than you but I would be happy to.... So who's going to do this? I nominate Scott VanArtsdalen :-) Oh, I see. :-] Well I would be happy to do a primer section for the FAQ. This may even help me with my primer selection. I will try to start collecting the names of various primers this weekend. Okay Randall, here's the tricky part: If anyone could please email me directly with any information on the primer(s) they use, preparation techniques, application techniques, safety/health hazzards, interaction information, I will start trying to compile a primer section to the FAQ. I am more than willing to contribute to the group if I can gather the information. Want to see what I did for my old Aeronca mailing list buddies? Take a look at: http://www.jps.net/svanarts -- Scott VanArtsdalen (RV4 #1054, left wing in jig) Network and System Administrator Lockheed Martin Enterprise Information Systems Phone: 408-743-2224 Pager: 1-800-225-0256 Pin: 635776 Email: scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)miami.gdi.net>
Subject: elevator access door nutplates
I apologize for wasting bandwidth. Will the lister who had asked for photos of my access door & servo installation please email me again. I erased your email address and I have more (clearer) photos for you. Charlie Kuss RV-8 Boca Raton, Fl. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: RV-6A side skins
Date: Feb 19, 1998
A while ago I posted a message about forming the cone-shaped aft end of the F-670 side skins. I recall saying something about how the curve looked like I had made it using stone tools, etc. I want to tell all that after a week of patiently working with the side skin, it not only tucks in nicely under the bottom skin like the plans say it will, but it also looks heart-warmingly good. Never give up. Steve Soule Fuselage in the jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: lottmc(at)datastar.net (Michael C. Lott)
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
Did anyone say what value cap. to use? I missed it. Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Carroll Bird <catbird(at)taylortel.com>
Subject: Re: RV-4 Tank rear baffle
Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: > Does the baffle need to be trimmed or should I just alter the print > dimensions to match the rear baffle? > > Scott, I wouldn't alter the print. Measure the width of the skin to see if it > would be wide enough for the extra 1/2". Also if you leave the extra length, it > will come out on the endboard end of the tank. You may need that space for the > plumbing at the endboard end. Carroll Bird RV-4 (Hope to fly this summer.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com (Paul M Bilodeau)
Subject: Re: Cancellation of Frederick Maryland RV forum
Bummer.....I was looking forward to attending again this year!! I guess I'll have to wait for the New York weekend at the end of the summer. Paul M. Bilodeau pbilodeau(at)att.com 732-957-6611 RV-6A Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: emcole(at)ix.netcom.com (Edward Cole)
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
You wrote: > > >Has anyone used the pop rivet dimplers, which consist of a nail and dies >that are place in a pop rivet gun? > >Do they do the job for the whole plane, or just the hard to reach areas? > > >Thanks... > >Paul Besing >RV-6A QB (197AB) >Still Waiting on kit... Paul, I use them for hard to reach places like up against the bends in the control surfaces or anywhere the C-tool can't get into. You wouldn't want to use it all the time as it is slow and not as controllable. I've even got a spare set that is ground flat on one side to get into ribs where I'm a little close to the web. Ed Cole RV6A Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)icsnet.com>
Subject: Re: bleeding brake lines!#*!*#
>Would appreciate any advice on filling and bleeding air out of the brake >lines. I am not having very good luck! Purchased one of the bleeder tanks >from A/C Spruce. Seems to work well enough, pumps up to about 80psi. This is >attached to the port on the bottom of the brake unit and the fluid is pumped >up through the system and into the resevoir. The problem is that each time I >do this procedure, and have the fluid flowing good, with no visible bubbles, >as soon as I shut the pump off and close the port I get fairly good size air >bubbles(pockets) in the filler lines. These are the plastic lines that go from >the master cylinder to the resevoir. The brakes work good and feel normal,(not >mushy). Any thoughts? > >Walt RV-6A #21611 (Inspection scheduled for this Sunday!) Walt, Make sure that the brake system offers little resistance when filling. You have an 80 psi pump, that will be gross overkill for this system. The fluid will flow with very little effort as long as the system was installed correctly. Your problem sounds very similar to what I just went through a few weeks ago. During my initial bleeding (about a year ago), the system was back filled, as you are doing, without any problems. After the plane had about 50 hours on it, there were bubbles in the clear lines from the pilot master cylinders to the pax master cylinders, resulting in soft brakes on the pax side. I tried to add fluid using the same low pressure filler as before and was unable to. There was now a significant restriction somewhere in the line. It was traced to a blockage at the tee fitting that goes into the reservoir. Upon disassembly, it looked clean, but somehow was not allowing fluid to pass. I might have overtightened the nuts on this tee. As the brake pads started to wear, and the pax brakes were depressed, the fluid was unable to flow from the reservoir and air was pulled into the system. I haven't seen any air enter the system since this blockage was fixed. Hope this helps. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask and good luck on your inspection. Scott Gesele N506RV - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mack, Don" <DMack(at)tuthill.com>
Subject: Installing NACA inlet ?
Date: Feb 19, 1998
I am getting ready to install the NACA inlets (SV-1) on the sides of my 6A. The plans call for using rivets and RTV. I don't think that will hold up as well as proseal as George O. uses in his video/plane. That seems a bit messy though. Has anyone tried the 3M tape and if so how long have they been attached? I think that would be a good solution as long as they didn't end up falling off, which would be a bad thing. Don Mack RV-6A donmack(at)allways.net http://www.flash.net/~donmack/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Richard TREANOR <rtreanor(at)ci.sunnyvale.ca.us>
Subject: Torque Wrench
Raining here in SF Bay Area, so thought I'd brighten up your day a little with a short story to prove there is alway someone "dumber". Finished my rear HS spar and proceeded to bolt on my HS-411 hinge assembly. Deftly place AN3-5 a bolt in correct hole...so far so good! I've never used a click type of torque wrench so... I ran back in the house and re-reviewed Orndorf tape of said procedure. Sure enough he tightened bolt and at the proscribed 20-25 in/pounds the wrench gave a 'chunk' and appeared to release. Run back out to the garage. Began tightening bolt...no 'chunk'! Kept tightening bolt...still no 'chunk'! Yes, kept tightening...finally a 'chunk'! The bolt snapped in half, falling on the bench. Hmm, must be a bad bolt. Tried again, this time I sripped the bolt! What a lousy torque wrench!!! Yeah that's it, should have bought the $200 Snap-On tool. Engineer friend came over last night and examined the offending wrench. It was just fine! The big 'chunk' that I expected was a really a tiny 'click'. Ignorance is not bliss! Rich Treanor Sunnyvale, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PANNAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
In a message dated 2/19/98 11:55:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, lottmc(at)datastar.net writes: << lottmc(at)datastar.net >> Per info on rv list I read .01 cap. Dave RV6(Eng.next) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: RV-4 Tank rear baffle
Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: > > I just searched the archive and couldn't find anything on this. I was > laying out the ribs on the rear baffle per DWG 17 last night and to my > shock and amazement the dimensions used in the print didn't match up to the > dimensions of the rear baffle. The dimensions from the print add up to > 38.5 inches for the rear baffle, the actual rear baffle measures 39 inches. > Does the baffle need to be trimmed or should I just alter the print > dimensions to match the rear baffle? > > I hope that was understandable. Since no one else seems to have answered, I'll take a stab at this. BTW, my experience comes from a -6, but I think the situation is similar. I was laying out my rear baffle and had spare baffle left over until I realize that the outboard rib was for the other tank and was facing inboard. With the proper rib and the flange facing outboard, everything was just fine. This brain fade on my part lasted longer than I care to admit; thank heavens I didn't drill or cut anything. If that is not your problem, then I would contact Vans. I found on my -6 kit that the plans and material were correct; I cannot speak for the -4. Good luck. PatK - RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: bleeding brake lines!#*!*#
>Would appreciate any advice on filling and bleeding air out of the brake >lines. I am not having very good luck! Purchased one of the bleeder tanks >from A/C Spruce. Seems to work well enough, pumps up to about 80psi. This is >attached to the port on the bottom of the brake unit and the fluid is pumped >up through the system and into the resevoir. The problem is that each time I >do this procedure, and have the fluid flowing good, with no visible bubbles, >as soon as I shut the pump off and close the port I get fairly good size air >bubbles(pockets) in the filler lines. These are the plastic lines that go from >the master cylinder to the resevoir. The brakes work good and feel normal,(not >mushy). Any thoughts? > >Walt RV-6A #21611 (Inspection scheduled for this Sunday!) >> Hi All, I use a small cheap oil pump can filled with hydraulic fluid to back fill my brakes. Just attach a flexible tube between the end of the oil can nozzle and the brake caliper fitting. I saw a problem similar to what you discribe on a two place A/C brake system. The person was using a pressurized can system to back fill the brake system. No visible bubbles in the lines (clear plastic type), until later. It reminded me of a story I had heard about how the fizz is put in soda pop. All that is required is to pressurize the drink solution to 5 atmospheres (75psi) and then seal the drink solution in a bottle. Jim Ayers Less_Drag(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Specific primer question
Larry, I used the P60G2 wash primer with good results. It's very tough and easy to apply, but just make sure you mix the combined components about twice as long as you think is necessary. Otherwise you might initially get some very stringy ejecta from your spray gun. Not that I have any first hand experience with that, you understand. : ) Joel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leif Stener" <leif.stener(at)swipnet.se>
Subject: Installing NACA inlet ?
Date: Feb 19, 1998
---------- > Frn: Mack, Don > Till: Rv-List (E-mail) > mne: RV-List: Installing NACA inlet ? > Datum: den 19 februari 1998 18:04 > > > I am getting ready to install the NACA inlets (SV-1) on the sides of my > 6A. > > The plans call for using rivets and RTV. I don't think that will hold up > as well as proseal as George O. uses in his video/plane. That seems a > bit messy though. Has anyone tried the 3M tape and if so how long have > they been attached? I think that would be a good solution as long as > they didn't end up falling off, which would be a bad thing. > > Don Mack RV-6A > donmack(at)allways.net > http://www.flash.net/~donmack/ > Hi Don! I installed the NACA inlets whit Proseal and oops-rivet ( about 8 rivets). The oops-rivets alow you to countersink the sheet but not the NACA inlet. The sheet is curvd in top, and you must have space for your rudder ped. I think the Proseal it self want hold the inlet in that curvd place. Leif Stener RV-6, Sweden, riveting the top skin. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
<< Oops! The Bob Archer style wingtip antennas are predominately horizontally polarized . . . optimum for VOR/LOC service. The 1/4 wave antenna on the gear leg will be predominately vertically polarized, more suitable for for COM use. It's true that from altitude, a wet string hung over the side of the cockpit will function at some performance level as an antenna but if one is concerned for the details, wingtip antennas are an apples-for-oranges replacement for vertical spike antennas. >> Bob: I think this polarity thing gets run into the ground; consider your own point about the wet string... Every time we bank an airplane we affect the polarity of all radiators attached thereto, with virtually no noticeable effect. The inverted L which I plan to make will extend down the trailing edge of my homemade gear leg fairings (glass/epoxy) for perhaps 8-10 (at the same slant as the gear leg, of course) before turning sharply aft along the slipstream lines as a length of telescoping tube/whip (maybe with small corona ball). Any way you puzzle this geometry, it's a sloping overall polarity. Most of the current will be in the roughly vertical portion, while most of the voltage will be on the horizontal segment. After it interacts with the metal of the gear leg, it won't make a hill of beans difference what polarity I started out trying to achieve. My guess is it will be "Q-5 copy" from any reasonable distance. I plan to build it, tune it, and forget about it! One for 108-138 Mhz, and the other for 144-148 Mhz, which will keep the airframe drag symmetrical ; -) Thwe wingtip antennas I have decided to abandon are not commercially available- they are my own design of copper foil dipoles and would have been masively shielded 180 degrees by the wing tip rib and associated structure. It looks so impractical now that I'm going to dismantle them before ever putting them in service. This will also save the weight of two RG-58 runs the length of the wings. Bill Boyd RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TPhilpin(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Primers / Corrosion - Cessna's Current Process
Dear List Members: In my own research of corrosion control and primers for interior structures I spoke with many product technical reps who were either helpful but uninformed or extremely product biased without a clear cost benefit persepctive. In order to obtain more objective (interpert this as end user) input I spoke with a member of the engineering department at Cessna Aircraft. The engineer was kind enough to speak with me at length and shared the following: Cessna assumes worse case enviornment for their products - salt air enviornment not unlike Florida or worse. They currently offer a 20 year guaranty against corrosion on some of their current GA airframes. In order to achieve this level of corrosion resistance, Cessna uses Alclad whenever possible, and has the following process for the treatment of all aluminum parts prior to assembly: 1. A deoxidizing degreasing treatment - namely an acid etch 2. A chromic substrate conversion treatment in vats - Alodine is a product name 3. All surfaces are sprayed with a two part catalyzed epoxy primer that meets Mil Spec P2337F. In order to meet this mil spec the epoxy primer must contain strontium or zinc chromates which protects the surface even if the primer is subsequently scratched during assembly. This engineer firmly believes nothing else has been found to adequately replace the chromates. All parts are then assembled. When ready for exterior painting, the surface is primed again using the two part primer to seal any scratches etc that have occurred during assembly. The finish top coat is a polyurethane product giving a 6 mil finished surface. It is believed that this process adds about 15 lbs to the typical GA light aircraft. In areas subject to exotic hydraulic fluids, Cessna uses a fuel bay primer from Dexter Aerospace which is slightly brittle and used only when necessary. Ordinary Zinc Chromate is no longer used because it never really cures (unlike the catalyzed products), and as a result can be disolved by fuels or other chemicals used later on in the painting process. Hopefully this information may prove helpful to current and future builders when deciding the products and efforts to be utilized in building their own aircraft. Respetfully submitted, Tony Philpin, CT builder RV - 8 empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil(at)pressenter.com>
Subject: Twin Cities Rv Forum
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Fellow Listers: Just saw the note regarding the cancellation of the East Coast Forum which is unfortunate. Putting on such an event is a major commitment with many variables. Just another reminder however, that the 4th Annual Twin Cities RV Forum is planned for Saturday May 2, 1998 in Red Wing, MN. For those in the upper Midwest we are hoping that this will be an informative and worthwhile event. It is a day long gathering with a lineup of RV speakers, lots of doorprizes, a sheet metal workshop (we'll build an RV-6 vertical stabilizer and give it away as our grand prize!) John Morgan from Van's Aircraft will be here with one of the RV demo ships. An evening banquet is planned at the beautifully restored St. James Hotel in Red Wing. All RV enthusiast are invited especially flyin RVs . If you'd like to be added to our mailing list to receive our March newsletter which will have all the details, drop me an email off the list. Our if you have any other questions, let me know. Doug Weiler, pres, MN Wing ******************************************* Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI 715-386-1239 email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Colin Strong <Colin_Strong(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Specific primer question
What do you mean by "twice as long"? I have had the 'blotchy' gun output problem and I have heard that it is a good idea to mix it two parts to one instead of the 1.5 parts to one as recommended by SW. Is that what you mean? "but just make sure you mix the combined components about twice as long as you think is necessary. " ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Installing NACA inlet ?
> The plans call for using rivets and RTV. I don't think that will hold up > as well as proseal as George O. uses in his video/plane. That seems a > bit messy though. Working with this small amount of proseal really isn't bad (not even close to as bad as doing the tanks). A little messy, yes, but no big deal. > Has anyone tried the 3M tape and if so how long have > they been attached? I think that would be a good solution as long as > they didn't end up falling off, which would be a bad thing. I've used the 3m tape for non-airplane parts and wouldn't hesitate to use it for this application. Once you get it on there, you'd better not ever want to get it off again! Just be sure to let it "cure" for a while because it doesn't get to full strength until after it's been on for a while. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com (Paul M Bilodeau)
Subject: Re: Torque Wrench
Rich, this is a characteristic of my Harbor Freight Torque Wrench also...and I only had to send it back twice to find out that George's click wasn't the same as my wrench's click........ Self-induced frustration mode off !!!! Paul M. Bilodeau pbilodeau(at)att.com 732-957-6611 RV-6A Empennage Building Horizontal Stabilizer..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: armstpat(at)wellsfargo.com
Subject: Comparison
Date: Feb 19, 1998
In response to the writer who was comparing airframes earlier, I have invested much time comparing the MII with the RV6/6A. I am about to make my decision. Here is what has surfaced as important to me. The folding wing of the MII can save tens of thousands of dollars of hangar rent in just a few years. Over a period of ten years, in my area that would be $36,000. Mustang Aero states that aerobatics shouldn't be performed with this option though. Excluding the price of a new engine, the MII kit is around $4000 less. Mustang aeronautics doesn't offer discounts on new engines. The discount offered by Vans can save up to $7000. The first kit to order for the MII is usually the center section (around $2500), the first on the RV6 is the empenage (around $1500). According to my sources, the MII is faster, handles turbulance better and has a smoother ride than the RV6 because of wing area and loading. The MII stalls 5 mph faster than the RV6. According to serveral sources, the flaps on the MII are basically a drag device and don't add much lift. The MII has a longer takeoff and landing distance and climbs slower than the RV6. Plans are available for the MII that a plane can be built from. Not so with the RV6 according to people experienced with both. The MII taildragger is trickier to land than the RV6. The carry-through spar of the RV6 seems to be a stronger structure than the bolt together wings of the MII. The NTSB web site describes one idiot actually ripping his wings off an MII. I am sure he spent much effort over a long period of time to do this, and he would probably would have killed himself in any airframe. After studying both videos and talking to many builders in both camps, the RV kit seems to be of better quality. From what I can see, the RV6 uses crimping for metal shrinkage as opposed to the metal removal technique used on the MII. The RV6 also has strengthening (anti-oilcanning) grooves on many of the bulkheads where the MII doesn't. Most importantly, and I would like soom feedback from those with experience, the larger wing of the RV6 should provide a much better power-off glide than the MII. After talking with people who have flown both the RV6 is easier to fly. One MII builder reports that he must re-trim when he moves his feet during flight. Don't know if that is the case on the RV6. Vans has made many improvements over the years and there always seems to be a new model in development. Mustang Aero hasn't done much to their 22 year old design. There are several businesses providing parts and services for the RV6. Haven't seen any yet for the MII. More people are building RV6s. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Hinch" <chinch(at)arl.co.nz>
Subject: Surface prep method and questions
Date: Feb 20, 1998
I've been following the priming debate with, to be honest, a great deal of confusion. I've just received my -8 empennage kit. I want to get started, but the whole priming issue (and the err.. passion? which it raises on the list) is causing me some concern. Corrosion is a big issue in NZ (lots of coastline), and I want my aeroplane to be around for a very long time. So I want to get it right, and have a clear plan in my head as to surface prep and priming. I spoke to the engineers at the Alpine Fighter Collection who are responsible for restoring and maintaining WWII fighters in flying condition - P51D, Spitfire, Hurricane, Yak 3 etc etc. While I'm still unclear on the primer that I will use because of the toxicity issues, I think I now have a better idea of the pre priming process. The procedure suggested to me is: (for my location/requirements of airframe life) With all parts finished and ready for final assembly: 1. Disasemble from jig. 2. Remove any remaining plastic covering 3. Use thinner to remove any ink remaining on the part(s) 4. Immerse the part in a bath of Prepsol. This cleans the part and improves the "take" of the Alodine. 5. Move the part to a bath of Alodine. 6. When the part is ready (a light straw colour on exposed edges - note that the alodine will not take to the Alclad - DON'T overdo the Alodining) remove and rinse well with water. 7. When dry, the part is ready for priming. Note 1: prep and prime ALL parts I specifically asked about scuffing with scotchbrite so that the alodyne will take to the Alclad, and was told quite clearly that it defeated the purpose of the Alclad - that the Alodyne was to provide the *exposed* alloy (where I've drilled, filed etc) with a layer of corrosion protection similar to that provided by the pure aluminium on the Alclad on the non worked surface. I'm going to find a couple of long wide and shallow trays with sealable lits for the Prepsol and Alodine, and install a hand held sprinkler and drain in the corner of my garage. Apparently the Prepsol and Alodine can be used repeatedly before they need replenishing or replacing. I appreciate Dave Carters (hi Dave!) advice and help tremendously and I have amended this approach to include 8. Dry with paper towels to avoid mineral spots. Note 2: Refresh the Alodyne bath as necessary Note 3: Use a 2 cartridge filter mask unless you want to fly before your aeroplane. My questions refers to id'ing parts. If I label all the parts with a sharpie pen directly onto the alclad, (not the plastic covering), and avoid removing these markings in step 3, will they still show after the alodining? Will that cause any later problems? Also, are there primers that the sharpie will show through after priming? Thanks for any constructive feedback and comments about this method. (I appreciate that this is probably old news for everyone who is well into their project, but please be rest assured it is VERY new to me... *grin*) Chris RV #80630 ____ Chris Hinch Phone: +64-3-477-2995 Animation Research Ltd Fax: +64-3-479-9751 Systems Manager e-mail: chinch(at)arl.co.nz Level 2, 450 Moray Place, PO Box 5580, Dunedin, New Zealand ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
>Bob: I think this polarity thing gets run into the ground; consider your own >point about the wet string... > >Every time we bank an airplane we affect the polarity of all radiators >attached thereto, with virtually no noticeable effect. > >The inverted L which I plan to make will extend down the trailing edge of my >homemade gear leg fairings (glass/epoxy) for perhaps 8-10 (at the same slant >as the gear leg, of course) before turning sharply aft along the slipstream >lines as a length of telescoping tube/whip (maybe with small corona ball). Agreed . . . and for most of us, it's a toss-up . . . especially when it's unlikely that new airplanes will DEPEND on VOR as the primary naviation. The tip antennas do indeed strongly favor the outboard direction and early experiments with these antennas suggested that putting BOTH antennas in and being able to switch to the favored antenna for side-looking, waypoint identification is a good thing to do. I'll agree that the need for optimum antenna performance at VOR is rapidly disappearing and for most folk is a mute point. > >Thwe wingtip antennas I have decided to abandon are not commercially >available- they are my own design of copper foil dipoles and would have been >masively shielded 180 degrees by the wing tip rib and associated structure. Bob Archer proposed a 1/4-wave faired back unipole antenna with a gamma-match feedpoint several years back. I believe these antennas are still available in kit form. Early experience with these antennas is what drove my initial comments . . . >It looks so impractical now that I'm going to dismantle them before ever >putting them in service. This will also save the weight of two RG-58 runs the >length of the wings. They're so light and easy to install, why not have them in place if only for a spare? I think people are more likely to experience cross polarization degredation in communications modes than for VOR modes . . . trying to hit a Flightwatch remote site from 50 miles out with a Terra transmitter can stretch your uV/M pretty thin . . . Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========o00o=(_)=o00o========== < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "VanArtsdalen, Scott" <scott.vanartsdalen(at)lmco.com>
Subject: RV-4 Tank rear baffle
I'll double check witch ribs go where but I think I had them correct. I was just making the layout marks on the baffle and found that the last mark (where the last rib would go) was way off. This may be something that was mentioned in the RVator years ago. I guess I better buy those back issues! ---------- From: Patrick Kelley[SMTP:patk(at)mail.ic.net] Reply To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 1998 9:47 AM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-4 Tank rear baffle Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: > > I just searched the archive and couldn't find anything on this. I was > laying out the ribs on the rear baffle per DWG 17 last night and to my > shock and amazement the dimensions used in the print didn't match up to the > dimensions of the rear baffle. The dimensions from the print add up to > 38.5 inches for the rear baffle, the actual rear baffle measures 39 inches. > Does the baffle need to be trimmed or should I just alter the print > dimensions to match the rear baffle? > > I hope that was understandable. Since no one else seems to have answered, I'll take a stab at this. BTW, my experience comes from a -6, but I think the situation is similar. I was laying out my rear baffle and had spare baffle left over until I realize that the outboard rib was for the other tank and was facing inboard. With the proper rib and the flange facing outboard, everything was just fine. This brain fade on my part lasted longer than I care to admit; thank heavens I didn't drill or cut anything. If that is not your problem, then I would contact Vans. I found on my -6 kit that the plans and material were correct; I cannot speak for the -4. Good luck. PatK - RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Scott Gesele <scottg(at)icsnet.com>
Subject: Re: Installing NACA inlet ?
>I am getting ready to install the NACA inlets (SV-1) on the sides of my >6A. > >The plans call for using rivets and RTV. I don't think that will hold up >as well as proseal as George O. uses in his video/plane. That seems a >bit messy though. Has anyone tried the 3M tape and if so how long have >they been attached? I think that would be a good solution as long as >they didn't end up falling off, which would be a bad thing. > Don, Don't give up on proseal so easily. I used it and found that it wasn't that messy (no where near as messy as the tank). It was easy and I doubt that there is any chance of the ducts coming off. An added benefit of the proseal is that it can fill any small gaps where the plastic meets the aluminum. If I had to do it over again I would still use the proseal without hesitation. Hope this helps. Scott Gesele N506RV - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Mike Wills <willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil>
Subject: Re: RV-4 Tank rear baffle
Scott, I assume that your kit is old enough that you dont have pre-punched skins. I did have pre-punched skins, and used them as a template to layout the holes on the rear baffle. No trimming was required on mine, it was perfect. Make sure that you are using the correct ribs on the ends and flanges are facing the right way. Dont have mine in front of me but will try to remember to check this tonite and get back to you tomorrow if no one gives you a good answer before then. Mike Wills RV-4 (fuse ordered) willsm(at)manta.nosc.mil > The dimensions from the print add up to >38.5 inches for the rear baffle, the actual rear baffle measures 39 inches. > Does the baffle need to be trimmed or should I just alter the print >dimensions to match the rear baffle? > >I hope that was understandable. > >-- >Scott RV-4 #1054 >Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Flying
From: Department of Encouragement Re: Flying your dream (or: "Red Lipstick") This is information you will need to file away somewhere if you aren't in the Flying stage yet. Flight testing is going well. Just finished a BUNCH of climb trials (many need to be done for averageing). Today, needed to begin loading the back up to test how things happen as weight is added to the back seat/baggage. There are many things you can throw back there (or over there for you -6ers) but it has to be something that A) won't hurt much if it is getting tossed around the cabin (yikes) and B) won't do much if it spills (ie, no dust etc.) OK: what are the options? Concrete is compact and in small bags. NO!!! You do NOT want to breath concrete dust if something goes amiss. How about blocks of hard concrete. NO!!! You wouldn't want to get hit by any large rocks flying through the cabin. Sand: yeah, that might work. Pellet stove pellets. Just happen to have some. Available at Builders Square. 40 pounds each. If it gets loose, bunch of wood in your hair. SO: loaded 80 pounds in the back seat, STRAPPED the things in, and off we went. First: go up and do stalls. Not much change really, either in the speed or feel of the stall. Slow flight: no problem either. Didn't feel much different. Now: I have 28+ hours in the ol' dear. I am getting to where I am familiar with a lot of her ways, including landing. And taking off. But today: I couldn't make a decent landing to save my soul. That dumb weight in the back. (Alright, and the crosswind, OK?) Sorta like your date always showing up with no lipstick and one night, shows up with bright red lipstick on. Something new about her you didn't know before. Not bad, just different. OK, gotta adjust. Do we still listen to Frank Zappa, or do we go with Spice Girls now? My theory is, you make about 3 or 4 stop-and-goes and then you go do something else for a while. I did 6. They were getting better...until #6; then I went and did something else. LESSON: load the airplane up with progressive weights. DON'T wait and do it with something that will make rude remarks about your landings. With weight, they ARE different. Go up to gross with something like pellets before live weight is added. MAN, are you going to like your new airplane!! Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q Flying (learning to land again) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: mjm003 <mjm003(at)beta.latech.edu>
Subject: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
I'm interested in building an RV-6A, but would like to know how much to budget for. I'm starting without any major tools. Will probably put a used Lycoming and enough instumentation for night VFR Running the numbers myself, I get rough estimates of $28-30K but that's without miscellaneous items that I don't know about yet. Has anyone kept an itemized ledger of all costs incurred in the building process? If so, please share the information with me. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: osmith(at)seas.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
Date: Feb 19, 1998
The best eime to find me in my office is usually between 10 and 11:30. Other time I may well be in the lab. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Don McCall <mccall(at)cayman.ds.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Primers / Corrosion - Cessna's Current Process
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 TPhilpin(at)aol.com wrote: > Cessna assumes worse case enviornment for their products - salt air > enviornment not unlike Florida or worse. > They currently offer a 20 year guaranty against corrosion on some of their > current GA airframes. In order to achieve this level of corrosion resistance, > Cessna uses Alclad whenever possible, and has the following process for the > treatment of all aluminum parts prior to assembly: > > 1. A deoxidizing degreasing treatment - namely an acid etch > 2. A chromic substrate conversion treatment in vats - Alodine is a product > name > 3. All surfaces are sprayed with a two part catalyzed epoxy primer that meets > Mil Spec P2337F. In order to meet this mil spec the epoxy primer must contain > strontium or zinc chromates which protects the surface even if the primer is > subsequently scratched during assembly. This engineer firmly believes > nothing else has been found to adequately replace the chromates. Great post, Tony! Thank you. Finally, something other than just hearsay. I'm curious about one thing, however... I know of many builders who are cleaning the surface and applying the appropriate epoxy primer, without the Alodine; does anybody know what is accomplished by the Alodine? I have to believe that there's a good reason why Cessna is doing that... Don McCall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Mark Graf <markgraf(at)pop.a001.sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
Flyinghi(at)worldnet.att.net wrote: > > > In the directions for the Van's supplied windscreen antenna, it mentions > installing a capacitor across the backs of the headset and mike jacks. I > assume this is the grounds, but does anyone know for sure? Has anyone had > problems with this antenna or does it perform relatively well for VFR type > flying. > > Your replys appreciated. > > Charles Golden > N609CG 6A > Chevy Powered > Installing Panel > (Now I understand why people build aircraft with no electrical system) > To All, While I understand that the windshield antenna works well, I would suggest using a standard comm antenna mounted on the lower or upper side of the fuse. There are some studies in the radio communications world that suggest having your head next to radio frequency power output as low as a cellular telephone (0.6 watts) for extended periods can cause cancer. Our aircraft radios normally have between 4 and 6 watts output. Obviously the amount of exposure time is less for the airplane (at least for recreational flyers like myself). While there is not what I would call a conclusive study, I am not taking the chance. Additionally the radio transmission propogation is better for the old standard stick in the air than the ribbon in the canopy. Physics are physics and it just works better, it has to do with ground plane, reflected power, and some rather complex formulas. Again, I have heard that the ribbons work well. Good Luck with your RX and TX Mark Graf RV-6 - N71CG flying 160+ hours markgraf(at)sprintmail.com Association of Public Safety Communications Officers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: jerry calvert <calverjl(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: AKZO
David Carter wrote: > > > Jerry, first, about using both "metalprep" and Alodine: When I did my > research all the Sherwin Williams, Pratt&Lambert, and DuPont folks and > their written guides for treating aluminum said it was one or the > other. Either will prep the surface to improve adherance of the > primer. I use PPG Alodine, after scrubbing with PPG "degreaser solvent" > DX 330 and red Scotchbite pad to totally scuff away the shiney surface, > then wash in warm soapy water and rinse. I always wear neoprene rubber > gloves (durable to withstand scrubbing with abrasive pads, avail from > PPG). > I dry the parts before Alodining. The Alodine chemical "gets used up" > after about two ribs if you dip parts in the same tub of liquid, so now > I dip fresh liquid out of a cup as I "bath" each part for 1 to 3', > keeping it wet. The stain/color change doesn't improve much after a > minute or so. Rinse well and dry with paper towels or whatever to avoid > mineral spots from evaporating water - unless you use rain water, which > I happen to have. > I use a standard "Sears?" 2 cartridge filter mask and it provides pure, > clean smelling > air when I'm scrubbing with strong solvent, mixing and spraying. > I'm building in a 1 1/2 car garage and build a small paint booth on one > side of garage with a window. Built the booth of 3 mil construction > plastic tacked/duct taped to a few uprights. Put a hefty squirrel cage > blower in window to exhause fumes and draw in fresh air to keep > concentration of fumes lower. > I paid PPG $180 for a DeVilbiss HVLP gun and use it with a Sears 2 hp > 20 gal tank, with system set at 80psi and regulator at handle of gun set > at 8 to 10psi, wetness 1/4 to 3/4 turn CCW from full "off/dry". It is 6 > turns from full off to full "wet" but keeping it close to dry give you > control and lets you build your coverage in 2 to 3 passes, where you can > see what is happening. Gun has "round" pattern (use 1/4 turn from full > off/dry) and "fan" or "flat" vertical line of paint (use 3/4 to 1 turn > CCW from full dry), which I like to use as much as possible because you > don't put on too much and get runs. I only used round today to reach > out to places where I couldn't get gun close enough because of hose > interference - but cut the wetness when I did use it. > > David Carter, RV-6 Horizontal Stab (rivet skins onto skeleton tomorrow), > Nederland, Texas > David, Thanks for sharing your response with the list. I know this will help a lot of the epoxy primer users. Jerry Calvert -6a empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "James K. Hurd" <hurd(at)riolink.com>
Subject: 6A Finish Kit Checklist
Getting ready to order finish kit for my 6A... Could someone who has been there before provide a checklist of options? I want the new cowl but which finish kit items are better purchased in the aftermarket and can be omitted from the order to Vans? I'm building an O-320/CS slider and have already got the steps. I'm looking for better, easier-to-install stuff, albeit more expensive. Thanks in advance. Jim drilling fuselage skins in NM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BSivori(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Torque Wrench
Hey Rich Dont feel too bad - I did the same exact same thing. 20-25 Inch Pounds on the wrench is real easy to miss, I learned on the HS so when it came time to do the bolts on the Wings I was an expert. Keep on Building BSivori(at)AOL.COM N929RV ( Reserved ) Wings in the Jiggs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Comparison
Beware of the kit cost quoted for the Mustang II. I have a friend who bought one, partially because it was cheaper. He also liked the name better too. When he got started, he found that the kit didn't include wheels or brakes, a $400.+ item. It also didn't include a canopy or the frame, another big check for $600+ and a scrounge for a frame from a wreck. Lots of other items like hardware and fittings were not included, that cost lots. I seriously doubt that the Mustang II is cheaper when you buy what is included in Van's kits. Jim Cone RV-6A flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Frank van der Hulst <frankv(at)pec.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com wrote: > It's true that from altitude, a wet string hung over the > side of the cockpit will function at some performance level as an antenna > but if one is concerned for the details, wingtip antennas are an > apples-for-oranges replacement for vertical spike antennas. Having recently flown in an RV where we had some difficulty with COM on the ground, would a gear-leg antenna be effective whilst taxiing? Would it get shielded by the wing and/or fuselage? Or, since I don't want an external antenna, would I be better to use one or two wingtip antennas? Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6160hp(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Twin Cities Rv Forum
East coast? The RV forum in Oswego NY, EAA 486 is planed this September. Don't miss it! I might even show my cracked canopy again? Any body got a use for it? Later Dave McManmon RV6 Cicero NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "Ray Murphy, Jr." <murphy(at)mail.coos.or.us>
Subject: Composite aircraft
One other note to consider before building a composite aircraft. The USCG flies the HH65 which is made of composite material. During the course of it's lifetime so far the average airframe has gained about 60 pounds of oil, fuel and water. We also use Kapton wiring in the airframe. That wiring has caused at least 2 fires in aircraft. It too has a tendancy to retain moisture, adding to weight and causing arcing. Just food for thought. Ray and Nancy Murphy murphy(at)mail.coos.or.us RV6A empenage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Don McCall <mccall(at)cayman.ds.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, mjm003 wrote: > I'm interested in building an RV-6A, but would like to know > how much to budget for. I haven't begun to build my -6A yet, but I've spent a fair amount of effort researching the expected cost (you'd be surprised at how all those little odds and ends add up!). Everything is on an Excel spreadsheet (version 7 for Windows 95), categorized according to construction phase; I'd be happy to send it along to you if you like, then you can see for yourself what my assumptions and expected expenses were for all the items, and make your own guesstimates accordingly. Mine will be full IFR, but you can easily delete the things you won't need. Regards, Don McCall P.S. If you don't have Excel, I can convert it to a plain text file and send it like that. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "robert dziewiontkoski" <dzflyer(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Comparison
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Gee... doesn't look lke a very tough decision to me. -----Original Message----- From: armstpat(at)wellsfargo.com <armstpat(at)wellsfargo.com> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 2:48 PM Subject: RV-List: Comparison > >In response to the writer who was comparing airframes earlier, I have >invested much time comparing the MII with the RV6/6A. I am about to >make my decision. Here is what has surfaced as important to me. > >The folding wing of the MII can save tens of thousands of dollars of >hangar rent in just a few years. >Over a period of ten years, in my area that would be $36,000. Mustang >Aero states that aerobatics >shouldn't be performed with this option though. > >Excluding the price of a new engine, the MII kit is around $4000 less. >Mustang aeronautics doesn't >offer discounts on new engines. The discount offered by Vans can save >up to $7000. > >The first kit to order for the MII is usually the center section (around >$2500), the first on the RV6 >is the empenage (around $1500). > >According to my sources, the MII is faster, handles turbulance better >and has a smoother ride >than the RV6 because of wing area and loading. > >The MII stalls 5 mph faster than the RV6. According to serveral >sources, the flaps on the MII are basically a drag device and don't add >much lift. > >The MII has a longer takeoff and landing distance and climbs slower >than the RV6. > >Plans are available for the MII that a plane can be built from. Not so >with the RV6 according to >people experienced with both. > >The MII taildragger is trickier to land than the RV6. > >The carry-through spar of the RV6 seems to be a stronger structure than >the bolt together wings of the MII. The NTSB web site describes one >idiot actually ripping his wings off an MII. I am sure he spent much >effort over a long period of time to do this, and he would probably >would have killed himself in any airframe. > >After studying both videos and talking to many builders in both camps, >the RV kit seems to >be of better quality. From what I can see, the RV6 uses crimping for >metal shrinkage as opposed to >the metal removal technique used on the MII. The RV6 also has >strengthening (anti-oilcanning) grooves on many of the bulkheads where >the MII doesn't. > >Most importantly, and I would like soom feedback from those with >experience, the larger wing of the >RV6 should provide a much better power-off glide than the MII. > >After talking with people who have flown both the RV6 is easier to fly. >One MII builder reports that he >must re-trim when he moves his feet during flight. Don't know if that >is the case on the RV6. > >Vans has made many improvements over the years and there always seems to >be a new model in >development. Mustang Aero hasn't done much to their 22 year old design. > >There are several businesses providing parts and services for the RV6. >Haven't seen any yet for >the MII. > >More people are building RV6s. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: AKZO
> Jerry, first, about using both "metalprep" and Alodine: When I did my > research all the Sherwin Williams, Pratt&Lambert, and DuPont folks and > their written guides for treating aluminum said it was one or the > other. Either will prep the surface to improve adherance of the > primer. I use PPG Alodine, after scrubbing with PPG "degreaser solvent" > DX 330 and red Scotchbite pad to totally scuff away the shiney surface, > then wash in warm soapy water and rinse. I wouldn't presume to contradict all these paint manufacturers, but I don't think it's really "one or the other" UNLESS you do the scuff/wash step, which replaces the etch, right? The Alumaprep serves two purposes -- to acid etch the material to give something for both the alodine to work on and the primer to adhere to, and also cleans the metal. The scotchbrite scuff and wash with detergent will do the same thing. Alodyne will just bead off if you don't etch first. Some people scrub with alumaprep and a scotch-brite pad, but I think this is overkill and may even remove more material than is necessary. If the Sherwin Williams stuff is a self-etching primer, you don't strictly need to do either one, but you should at least clean first with some sort of solvent. Randall Henderson, RV-6 randall(at)edt.com http://www.edt.com/homewing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "Scott A. Jordan" <SAJ_SLJ(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Specific primer question
>"E2G973 Vinyl Etch Primer" and "R7K242 Reducer"... Does anyone have experience with, or opinions on these products?< This is what I have been using. I'm no painting expert but it seems to go on easy and even. It's tough, I haven't had any problems with it scratching off as I've seen on some zinc chromate parts. Scott A. Jordan -8 #331 waiting for wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Derek Reed <dreed(at)cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Specific primer question
Larry Bowen wrote: > > All, > > I decided to go with the Sherwin Williams Wash Primer #P60G2 and > Catalyst Reducer #R7K44, > > Does anyone have experience with, or opinions on these products? I use the same product,due in part to the fact that I purchased a Kit from another builder who had started with SW products so I just kept right on using it.Personally I really don't worry much about this 'primer' thing as I have no experience on any primer longevity,all I do know is that I'm 70 now and my RV will sure last 'till the end of my flying days,what happens to it when I'm gone I couldn't care less about.Just do what you consider best and press on regardless. Good Luck Derek Reed OR RV6A wings > > > Thanks, > > Larry > larry(at)bowen.com > Advance, NC > RV-8 Emp. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Cancellation of Frederick Maryland RV forum
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic w Stucklen)
Paul, I seem to remember that the RV Builders Forum in Oswego, NY, is listed in the Atlantic Flyer as being held in Sept this year. You might want to look into it.... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on second RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
From: rvpilot(at)juno.com (William R. Davis Jr)
Charles, I know that some have used this antenna with success, but my experience was not good. When transmitting, too much RF energy was getting into the intercom resulting in a loud squeel. Tried it with and without the caps. Finally gave up and went back to the bottom mounted bent whip. I am now using the copper tape on the canopy as a ELT antenna. Regards, Bill N66WD _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Primers / Corrosion - Cessna's Current Process
<< does anybody know what is accomplished by the Alodine? I have to believe that there's a good reason why Cessna is doing that. >> Prevents (or reduces) filliform corrosion under the paint. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "J.C. Hassall" <jhassall(at)ipass.net>
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR
RV [...] >Mine will be full IFR, but you can easily delete the things you won't need. > >Regards, >Don McCall Don, I'd really appreciate a copy too. Mine will be IFR, so your data will be more pertinent to me. Thanks for the offer. Jim J.C. Hassall RV-6 Builder Wannabe mailto:jhassall(at)ipass.net Blacksburg VA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: RV6-200
From: wstucklen1(at)juno.com (Frederic w Stucklen)
Bob & Joe, In over a 100 Hrs of operation i my RV-6A (with the tip up) and hundreds of hours in the rain, I've yet to get any water on my avionics. Some of those hours were in rain with a curled up front canopy seal. The secret is to have a velcro'ed in waterproof cover between the panel and the front deck. Works great! Even protects your gear when you open the canopy in the rain..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (Working on second RV-6A - Chevy Powered!) wstucklen1(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
What's your bottom line? Chris > I haven't begun to build my -6A yet, but I've spent a fair amount of effort > researching the expected cost (you'd be surprised at how all those little > odds and ends add up!). Everything is on an Excel spreadsheet (version 7 for > Windows 95), categorized according to construction phase; I'd be happy to > send it along to you if you like, then you can see for yourself what my > assumptions and expected expenses were for all the items, and make your own > guesstimates accordingly. > > Mine will be full IFR, but you can easily delete the things you won't need. > > Regards, > Don McCall > > > P.S. If you don't have Excel, I can convert it to a plain text file and > send it like that. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Comparison
>armstpat(at)wellsfargo.com wrote: In response to the writer who was comparing airframes >earlier, I have invested much time comparing the MII with the RV6/6A. I am about to >make my decision. Here is what has surfaced as important to me. >Most importantly, and I would like soom feedback from those with experience, the larger >wing of the RV6 should provide a much better power-off glide than the MII. >After talking with people who have flown both the RV6 is easier to fly. >More people are building RV6s. David Carter gives a short reply (for once): You are focusing on some good things. Now, have you ever heard of the "RV grin"? If not, get a ride in an RV. It (the experience that causes the RV grin) will probably profoundly influence your choice of airplane to build. David Carter, RV-6 empennage, Nederland, Texas. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KBoatri144(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
>I'm interested in building an RV-6A, but would like to know how much to budget for. >I'm starting without any major tools. Will probably put a used Lycoming and enough >instumentation for night VFR >Running the numbers myself, I get rough estimates of $28-30K but that's >without miscellaneous items that I don't know about yet. I'm about $15,000 through the building process right now. I have a used O-320 which should fly for a total of about $9k -$10k after overhaul. I will only have one gyro, and a single com radio when the airplane flys. The airplane will be equipped for night. Right now, I'm estimating a total fly away cost of $32 -$35k. This cost includes $2k of tools. This figure excludes all the little stuff I get at home depot, replacement parts (it's the crating and shipping which really hurts), and a few other odds and ends I buy out of pocket. I think it would be extremely hard to get any of the kits off of the ground for under $30k, with the current kit prices and the strong (expensive) market for used engines. My $0.02... Kyle Boatright (cinching up the drawstrings on my nomex shorts) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: MoeJoe <moejoe(at)bellatlantic.net>
Subject: IVO Prop
There was a gentlemen who posted a few days ago asking for info on the IVO prop. Last night at my local EAA chapter meeting, I met a guy who is running a ground adjustable 3 blade IVO on a Ford V6 190hp auto conversion, in an old Bellanca something or other. It wasn't an RV so I didn't take any notice of the airframe (he had video). Anyway, he has about 40 hours on the prop since Sun n Fun, and he loves it. I asked him about cracking, and he said he had heard nothing, and wasn't concerned. Email me off list, and I can try to put you in touch with him. He was a very nice guy, very accommodating. Please note that I have no intentions of using an Ivo-prop in my RV, nor will I use an auto engine. I am in no way endorsing the Ivo-prop, or saying that it's safe. I am simply stating what the owner told me, based on his experiences. Moe Colontonio RV-8 HS Cherry Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Brake-wheel fairing interference
I trimmed and fitted all of my wheel fairings last weekend, and the cutout access plates for both of the main fairings are going to interfere with the brake calipers. I've considered trying to heat the fairings and attempt to flex them inboard to try and provide enough clearance, or it may be possible to trim the access panels and form a bubble to provide the proper clearance. Has anyone else experienced this interference? What about just leaving the little access panels off? I'm waiting for my Mark Fredrick gear fairings to arrive, and after they're fitted and the gear leg-wheel fairing intersection fairing is fabricated maybe this panel won't be needed? One other question, I still have some Pro-seal that's about to expire, and I'm wondering about using it to glue the gear leg stiffeners to the main gear legs. It would provide longer working time than using the polyester-bondo filler material, but I don't know how well it'll stick to the wood. Since the whole thing's gonna be wrapped up with fiberglass anyway......... Mark LaBoyteaux RV-6A N106RV MLaboyteau(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Gil Alexander <gila(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Primers / Corrosion - Cessna's Current Process
*** big snip *** >1. A deoxidizing degreasing treatment - namely an acid etch >2. A chromic substrate conversion treatment in vats - Alodine is a product >name >3. All surfaces are sprayed with a two part catalyzed epoxy primer that meets >Mil Spec P2337F. In order to meet this mil spec the epoxy primer must contain >strontium or zinc chromates which protects the surface even if the primer is >subsequently scratched during assembly. This engineer firmly believes >nothing else has been found to adequately replace the chromates. *** big snip *** >Respetfully submitted, >Tony Philpin, CT builder >RV - 8 empennage Tony ... I fully agree ...:^) ... interesting that Cessna changed from no primer to epoxy primer now that the price of their planes has gone up. However, one minor point. The Spec is MIL-P-23377F (an extra 7), and if you want to buy some certified paint, the easiest consumer outlet is DETCO in Newport Beach, CA. (1-800-845-0023) ... they distribute Sterling paint products, and Sterling U-1201 epoxy primer meets this Mil-Spec. If you order from them, don't forget to tell them you are an EAA member and get a 40% discount. BTW ... this primer at 0.001 inch thick (the military aviation requirement for alum.) weighs 0.0133 lbs. per sq. ft. ... Gil (epoxy prime it) Alexander ------------------------------------------------------- mailto:gila(at)flash.net Gil Alexander, Los Angeles, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Primers / Corrosion - Cessna's Current Process
> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 TPhilpin(at)aol.com wrote: Cessna assumes worse case enviornment for >their products In order to achieve this level of corrosion resistance, >Cessna uses Alclad whenever possible, and has the following process for the >treatment of all aluminum parts prior to assembly: > 1. A deoxidizing degreasing treatment - namely an acid etch > 2. A chromic substrate conversion treatment in vats - Alodine is a product name > 3. All surfaces are sprayed with a two part catalyzed epoxy primer > Great post, Tony! Thank you. Finally, something other than just > hearsay. I'm curious about one thing, however... I know of many builders > who are cleaning the surface and applying the appropriate epoxy primer, > without the Alodine; does anybody know what is accomplished by the > Alodine? I have to believe that there's a good reason why Cessna is > doing that... Don McCall My wake up call this morning was from Pratt & Lambert's Lab returning my call to them yesterday. One of the things I asked was, "Do I really need to apply alodine after using degreasing solvent & scrubbing with scotchbrite pad, followed by soap and warm water wash and rinse?" His answer was, "Yes, we feel strongly that you need the alodine in order to assure adequate adhesion of the epoxy primer. If you don't alodine, you have an unacceptable risk of primer not adhering." So, I did it. There was another post today by Chris Hinch of New Zealand (High, Chris) that answered a question that neither PPG nor Pratt & Lambert could answer: Why are my parts not changing color very much when I alodine, and why do they turn blue instead of yellow? The answer is apparently that alodine doesn't take to alclad very well (or takes differently). I thought it was interesting that the alodine purpose is to provide protection "equal to alclad" on the edges and drilled holes of alclad sheet that have no alclad protection. That is reason #2 for using Alodine, as well as reason #1, adhesion of the epoxy chromate primer. Putting these two reasons together, you might extrapolate that if you didn't use alodine or other chemical conversion coating, then your edges (no alclad protection) would be the places that paint separation should be expected to occur first. Pratt and Lambert confirmed that my light green epoxy primer has strontium, not zinc, as its "chromate". That was pointed out several days ago when someone corrected one of my posts. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I like the primer thread. I'm still learning from it. OK, I've seen the passion. I suspect the passion can be distilled to a matter of which basic source of info a person trusts most, "prior good experience with, for example variprime" or "what the factory man and or written guidance says". Maybe this thread could be kept "cooler" by acknowledging the validity of both viewpoints and respecting people regardless of which they weight above the other. Lets keep the info flowing to the new guys - there's lots of them coming on right on our heels. David Carter, RV-6 empennage, Nederland, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Marking parts vs scrubbing and priming
Chris Hinch of New Zealand gave an excellent post on aluminum prep and priming and then asked some questions, one of which had to do with marking. First, if you don't prime, or apply a semi-transparent coating, then you can simply mark parts with felt tip pens. For my ribs and steel hinges on aft spar of horiz stab, I left parts on the left "unmarked" and used a single punch mark on, e.g., the steel hinges on right and ribs on right. Where there were two identical hinges in a pair, I put the mark on each "toward the center". This was working fine until I applied the primer - I had never used my gun before, had never painted before, and put on way too thick a coat - which filled in my punch marks! I managed to find the marks/depressions OK and re-cleco'd things to assure the holes matched - no problem. I also bought a bunch of small plastic tie wraps and cut out little plastic tags (from the clear plastic bags my Avery tools came in) and tied labels to the parts that had holes drilled in them. I abandoned this, but think it might have application on some parts. For example, when I painted my two horiz stab skins yesterday, the only distinguishing mark was the tiny ding in the tip end edge where the welding debacle was done. If that mark hadn't been there, I'd have had to trial fit the skins to know where they went. A ring of plastic in the right one, or a punch mark, or even writing with the Sharpie pen would have been helpful. Now that I'm getting a 0.7 mil thickness, using about 3 passes with the gun, you can see through the primer film, and the Sharpie would show through OK for ID. David Carter, RV-6 empennage, Nederland, Texas ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TPhilpin(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: FYI: Avionics Note: Reported on AVWeb.com
The following was posted in the AVWeb.com newsletter: Proposed AD????? ...The FAA, TARGETS WIDELY USED KT-76A TRANSPONDERS WITH AD Finally, the FAA targeted the 20,000 KT-76A transponders in service throughout the GA fleet with an AD. The agency is concerned that the units are transmitting misleading altitude information and the fix is estimated to cost $120 each. Compliance is required in just 6 months. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric.Henson(at)cendantmobility.com
Date: Feb 18, 1998
Subject: Easy Access Panel
Hot Damn, Mitch! Where's that Lancair guy? See how easy it is to build an RV! You won't get that on the Lancair list. I thank you, and my lumbar thanks you. Eric Henson >>I am working with him directly to get this information (and more) about the removeable instrument panel on my web site for everybody. << ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: "J.C. Hassall" <jhassall(at)ipass.net>
Subject: Re: Which Sets and Dies
[...] >I compiled my QB tool research into an Excel spreadsheet I would be glad to >provide to anyone on request. Mind you it, and its prices, are dated 8/96 >so you will need to do some updating on your own. Rob, I'd sure appreciate a copy. It'll be a huge help in estimating my startup expenses - and a running start on plans to hide the startup expenses :-p Thanx Jim J.C. Hassall RV-6 Builder Wannabe mailto:jhassall(at)ipass.net Blacksburg VA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
<< radio frequency power... can cause cancer. >> Warning: if we are not disciplined in our handling of this topic, a thread could be started which could one day occupy more archive space than the dreaded p----r thread>>>> This rumor hit Wall Street 5 or 6 years ago, and when I saw how Motorola stock dipped on the news, I _KNEW__ I should leverage myself and buy all of it I could, convinced the rumors would be shown to be bogus (they were) and that the stock would recover strongly (it did.) Of course, I sat on my hunch and did nothing... True, if you want to hurt yourself, look into a UHF cavity amplifier with the shielding removed. This is how microwave ovens work. They don't operate by making your food cancerous, but by warming it. Same goes for the lens of your eye when exposed to *strong* UHF and micro-wiggle energy. Heat = tissue damage. Just enough heat = diathermy treatment like you get in Physical Therapy. Likewise, 60Hz EMF from an electric blanket or a high tension line will not give you leukemia. Remember that if you accept a 95% confidence interval in your "scientific study," then by definition one study in 20 will find a cause and effect relationship that isn't really there! So we have the Swedes getting cancer from their electric power grid when no one else is, and it would be politicaly incorrect to warn only the Swedes of this danger but not, say, the Canadians, and if them, why not all those hapless Americans who could be at-risk from this clearly Communist plot, so the word goes out to "warn" everyone that the RF pollution will get us all if we don't do something. Kinda like the doctor who knows you have a viral infection but - why take chances- here's an antibiotic (that can't possibly help you but it makes us all feel safer.) IMHO, building and flying an experimental airplane is serious business and deserves our focused attention. RF cancer scares are, at present, unsubstantiated hysteria, and should not distract or detract from the serious fun we should be having in our workshops. Sorry for the soapbox, but it's the stress of my day job, having to read all those scientific journals and convince worried parents that kids get over colds without antibiotics. I feel better already. Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
<< we had some difficulty with COM on the ground, >> With whom were you trying to communicate? If the tower couldn't read you from the runway, I'd say someone has a malfunction somewhere. Near-field communication like that should work about as well with or without an antenna! Was this a shared/busy unicom frequency, perhaps? Maybe you were hearing him too well and he was overloading the rcvr front-end. I had that problem with a KX-99 once. Worked great in the clear, but close in to the airport it would break up and get too distorted to copy the tower. I had to ask for light gun signals on my maiden test flight of my first homebuilt because of this. A lower bus voltage fixed it. Just wondering.... Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wndwlkr711(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Pop Dimplers
In regard to the thread on using Pop Dimplers, I have found a trick that results in dimples formed very closely to regular dimple dies. I use a finish nail that is a close fit in the pop dimple dies. This results in better alignment and a better dimple. For hard to reach places, like the elevator tip ribs, cut the nail off to a length that is a little longer than both halves of the dies together. A pair of long nose pliers will help maneuver the nail and die into place. Then use two pair of vice grips, one on each side of the nail, to squeeze the dies together. Hope this helps. G. Stanley Desert Center, CA RV-6A Fuel Tanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Brake-wheel fairing interference
> > I trimmed and fitted all of my wheel fairings last weekend, and the cutout >access plates for both of the main fairings are going to interfere with the >brake calipers. I've considered trying to heat the fairings and attempt to >flex them inboard to try and provide enough clearance, or it may be possible >to trim the access panels and form a bubble to provide the proper clearance. >Has anyone else experienced this interference? What about just leaving the >little access panels off? I'm waiting for my Mark Fredrick gear fairings to >arrive, and after they're fitted and the gear leg-wheel fairing intersection >fairing is fabricated maybe this panel won't be needed? Mark, I don't think you can really fit the access panels until you have the gear leg fairings. I then cut out enough glass that the wheel fairings would sit in place without fouling anything. I then moulded plasticine (child's greasy modelling clay) to make a smooth intersection fairing. I wrappled three layers of electicians tape on the gear leg fairing at the top of the modelling gunk. Fireglass over the whole shebang. Take cut off wheel and (very carefully) cut out access plate. Remove access plate. remove plasticine (can easily be done in two nights with a toothpick). Remove wheel fairing (copious swearing helps). Take whole unlikely mess and sand and bog until beautiful. Fit nutplates. Don't forget to do all the above with the wheels hanging weightless in the flying position. Hope for the best on test flight day. If there is an easier way don't tell me. Leo Davies 6A (the wheel fairings look good). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
I don't have a complete itemized breakdown of the cost for my RV-6A, but I have a total cost of $32,000., which included a reman 160 Lycoming, a Sensenich metal prop, state of the art radios, all new instruments for IFR flight, and a very nice interior. Unlike my first kit plane, almost everything that you need is included in the kit except engine, instruments, radios, interior, and paint. My first plane kept bleeding my wallet every time I turned around, because something that I thought was included, wasn't. I have a friend that is building a Mustang II and is going through the same thing that I did on my first plane. Van's kit did not do that. I am very satisfied with the kit and even more satisfied with the finished plane. Jim Cone RV-6A Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Don Champagne <mongo7(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
> The inverted L which I plan to make will extend down the trailing edge of my > homemade gear leg fairings (glass/epoxy) for perhaps 8-10 (at the same slant > as the gear leg, of course) before turning sharply aft along the slipstream > lines as a length of telescoping tube/whip (maybe with small corona ball). > Any way you puzzle this geometry, it's a sloping overall polarity. Most of > the current will be in the roughly vertical portion, while most of the voltage > will be on the horizontal segment. After it interacts with the metal of the > gear leg, it won't make a hill of beans difference what polarity I started out > trying to achieve. My guess is it will be "Q-5 copy" from any reasonable > distance. I plan to build it, tune it, and forget about it! One for 108-138 > OK! You Geniuses... How about telling an old DUM-DUM how I can Mount my antennas for the two coms I have in the legs in the language I can Understand and with no electronic testing equipment. BOY!!! would I appreciate that info since I'm about ready to install these two comm antenna under the belly. For ever grateful, Don ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Subject: rv-4 tail kit for sale
From: drigby(at)juno.com (David L. Rigby)
Listers, RV -4 tail kit for sale. It is an older serial number (hence no prepunch) Some of the internal structure has been completed but no holes in the skins yet. Asking 500.00 US + shipping If interested or questions please respond off the list Thanks Dave drigby(at)juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 1998
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Yeller Pages Update
The latest, and so far greatest update to Gary VanRemortel's RV Builders' Yeller Pages is available at http://www.sound.net/~hartmann/yelrpage.htm. Enjoy, and be sure to tell Gary thanks. - Mike hartmann(at)sound.net http://www.sound.net/~hartmann ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: RMD Lighting
Apparently Bob DeBorde has changed his phone number but I tracked him down over the Internet. Try calling him at 503-648-0331. Let me know if he is still a viable supplier. I'll update the Yeller Pages....yet again. Well, there's no rest for the weary and my 6A awaits with just one flying hour on the Hobbs. Maybe if El Nino would give the SF Bay area a rest, I could go bore some holes. thx -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Installing NACA inlet ?
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 19, 1998
writes: > >>The plans call for using rivets and RTV. I don't think that will hold >up >>as well as proseal as George O. uses in his video/plane. That seems a >>bit messy though. The Yellow RV-8 prototype and the soon to be completed RV-8A both have the NACA vent housings installed with just Proseal. Be sure to use duct tape or something similar to hold them in place for a couple of days while it cures. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J VanGrunsven" <rvforpla(at)pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RMD Aircraft Lighting
Date: Feb 19, 1998
Phil, Try (503) 628-6056 for RMD, he moved from HIO to Twin Oaks airport (home of EAA chapter 105) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: "L. Coats" <lcoats(at)wave.co.nz>
Subject: Ivo prop users etc
I have been asked by an RV builder who is doing a subaru conversion for his -6 to enquire about the ivo prop problems that have been posted lately. 1. He asks if any of the prop failures have involved the ivo-prop magnum series 2. If the magnum series have failed, what engine had they been attached to and was a direct drive involved or a reduction drive (what type?). Please reply off list if you would like to lcoats(at)wave.co.nz Thanks Louise L. Coats ZK-RVL RV6 flying :-) 229hr ould >break up and get too distorted to copy the tower. I had to ask for light gun >signals on my maiden test flight of my first homebuilt because of this. A >lower bus voltage fixed it. Just wondering.... >Bill > I believe this was my aircraft that is being discussed here! I have an aerial on the bottom of the fuselage between the gear legs but favouring the right hand side, a TKM radio from Vans, flightcom intercom and blackhawk headsets. I had trouble with the radio right from the start and this was sent away for repair locally as it would not work at all in the beginning of the test programme. Since then I seem to have periodic reports that my transmissions are faint 2-4 on the scale or warbling. On this particular day, discussed above, there was a temporary tower set up in a mobile van about 20-30m away and I tried moving around to see if I could 'raise' this tower and in the end took off and called them up from downwind and was informed that they had heard no transmissions on the ground. I am still not sure if an aerial on the bottom of the fuselage is a good idea but I am interested in hearing the 'experts' thoughts on this matter. Another point, I have an ACK ELT and the aerial for this is in front of the F608 bulkhead (dorsally not ventrally). This aerial has rusted quite happily in our salty environment over the last three years and after seeing a few RV's in the US with ELT aerials in the baggage comparment I was wondering if these are known for a fact to function in this site when a mishap occurs and does the manufacturer encourage siting the aerial in this site (baggage comparment)? Louise L. Coats ZK-RVL RV6 flying :-) 229hr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: RMD Aircraft Lighting
Phil , try 503-648-0331.....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4flyer(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: rv-4 tail kit for sale
Dave , I am interested in your Tail I am ready to order my tail and wing kit for the RV- 4 when I ran across your posting please E-mail me your location and how we can make this sale happen. Thanks , Eli Lewis Venice, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: RV6-200
<< The tip-up, while looking funny on the ground, has some advantages: 1. Unobstructed forward view -- no roll bar in the way. 2. A tighter seal to keep water away from your avionics. >> I very much doubt that the tip-up canopy provides better protection from the elements. The early tip-ups leaked water all over the avionics. While the new tip-up design is better, it does still leak some water. How do you suppose that the fixed top skin/wind screen could leak water behind the instrument panel? I think that most of the RV-4 and tip-up six drivers would agree that the slide-back is superior in that ground operations are cooler in the summer and there is less chance of canopy damage due to wind or prop wash. I certainly dont want to start a "mine is better than yours" debate but if I did my flame shield is in position. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC - NJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Alan Carroll <carroll(at)geology.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
> The tip antennas do indeed strongly favor the outboard > direction Why is this? My understanding of radio waves (very elementary) suggests that it shouldn't matter what side of the airplane the antenna is on. What about mounting a dipole VOR antenna across the bottom of the cowling (left to right, beneath the air intake, with a connector for removing the cowling)? Has this been tried, or would proximity to the engine and exhaust system cause problems? Alan Carroll RV-8 #80177 (Wings) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Samuel Steele <steele(at)loyno.edu>
Subject: Magellin GPS
I have a Magellan Hand-Held GPS that is in excellent shape. For sale: $300. Please FAX me at: 504 865-2453 if interested. Sam Steele Sam Steele e-mail: steele(at)beta.loyno.edu Physics Dept. Machinist Loyola Univ. N.O. (504) 865-3646 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mikel(at)dimensional.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Brake-wheel fairing interference
>I don't think you can really fit the access panels until you have the gear >leg fairings. I then cut out enough glass that the wheel fairings would sit >in place without fouling anything....... > >Don't forget to do all the above with the wheels hanging weightless in the >flying position. I did the clay thing too, and they look great. Still taking a lot of sand-and-fill, which is not done YET. Here's the rub: in rigging the ailerons (pinching the light wing's aileron, etc.) it has been suggested you fly the airplane without the gear and wheel fairings first and adjust the ailerons. (The gear leg fairings affect the "rigging" of the airplane as they are an airfoil shape.) Then put the fairings back on and adjust further. Now: if you are going to fly with the fairings on, why not leave them on to adjust the ailerons? You get them as close as you can using the methods described in the manual and, once the glass has been set at the fuselage/gear and fairing/gear intersections, they are going to be hard to adjust anyway. And what "adjustment" do you make; ie, how do you rig the gear fairings? My opinion: put 'em on as straight as possible, glass 'em in and go flying. Make adjustments to the ailerons with the gear fairings in place. Just my own opinion. Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q Flying (approaching gross weight flights) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: gcomfo(at)tc3net.com (Gordon Comfort)
Subject: Re: Comparison
armstpat(at)wellsfargo.com wrote: > > > In response to the writer who was comparing airframes earlier, I have > invested much time comparing the MII with the RV6/6A. I am about to > make my decision. Here is what has surfaced as important to me. With regard to the comparison of Mustang II and RV-6, a couple of things come to mind. When comparing kit costs, be sure all included items are valued. The additional refinement of the RV kits is hard to put a value on but ought not be neglected. With regard to the folding wing, personal preferences will vary. I kept a glider in a trailer at home for several years and the freedom from hangar rent was welcome. However the glider was specifically designed for the purpose. I would not look forward to this process for a powered aircraft. The aerobatic restriction on the folding wing might indicate something of the structural characteristics. The stalling speed, takeoff and landing distance kind of go together. What is not noted is how the aircraft behaves close to the stall. The RV flies very well at low speeds and is comfortable in this flight region. The II is less so. I don't see many full stall landings with Mustang II's. The climb rate should be related to the power loading and the total airframe drag which in turn is influenced by wing loading and span loading. Other things equal, the Mustang should climb OK. As to the ride characteristics, the general statement that the II handles turbulence better might be true, in a sense, but the RV is not uncomfortable to me with comparatively soft responses. A Lancair 360 I flew,even with a higher wing loading, was less pleasing because of the sharpness of the ride. It was quite rough. My experience with the Mustang is limited to three flights is a Buick powered bird and even though it is heavier it is not substantially different than my RV-4. With regard to the ride, that is. As to speed, a superbly built Mustang II might be faster than an RV-6. With average construction it is doubtful. The above mentioned Buick powered II is definitely slower than my 160HP -4. I can literally fly circles around him. Furthermore, his speed loss when maneuvering is so great that as a practical matter he doesn't do much of it. The equivalent Lyc powered II built by the same people at the same time was described as better but unfortunately it moved to another part of the country before I could fly with it. Both aircraft are not difficult to fly but the II probably demands a bit more from the pilot. The best thing would be to fly both aircraft. If you can, get a Mustang II pilot to slow his aircraft down and explore that regime. He will probably be nervous. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Moore" <bobmoore(at)wwd.net>
Subject: Re: Magellin GPS
Date: Feb 20, 1998
> From: Samuel Steele > I have a Magellan Hand-Held GPS that is in excellent shape. For sale: > $300. Please FAX me at: 504 865-2453 if interested. I just bought a new Magellan Pioneer GPS at K-Mart for $99. :-) Bob Moore ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Denis Walsh <dwalsh(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
I kept track. $55K. ($2K for tools and shop). Started in 1992 and finished in 1998. Adjust accordingly. I believe the potential savings could add up to about $23K so I think you are pretty close. Here are areas of potential savings: I have new engine and C/S prop. (Could save $14K) All new instruments and radios. $3K paint job. Add on $1K ignition system. Three strobe system. Elec. trim and flaps. slider. D J's seats and upholstery. BTW I pay 135.50 per month for half hangar and $100 for insurance. Gas $229 per month for 17 hours. Oil is 1.32 per hour and overhaul is $5. This yields a current operating cost of $43.29 per hour. I am flying as often as I can to try to get this cost down by running it up ;-)). I make no claim as to my ability to predict others expenses. But these are what mine are. As for my 'options'. None of them are frills and would highly recommend them all to anyone who can find a way to afford them. On the other hand I have included operating expense to show you that no sane person can afford to own one of these things anyway! D Walsh ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: F689 elevator pushtube
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Listers, I'm working on the F689 forward elevator pushtube. I've carved out the needed amount on the weldment to get the stick to come within the 1/8" of the F604. I've gouged out some of the bulkhead for tube clearance, though a tad more is needed. However, when I set the sticks where I think neutral should be, the bellcrank at the rear end of the pushtube is tilted forward about twenty degrees at the top. I've made the pushtube per plan and have screwed the rod ends all the way into the bearings. Although I seem to be getting plenty of travel, I don't really like the bellcrank being off by that much. Have any of you run into a similar problem? I seems the geometry would dictate some deficiency in the elevator throws, one way or other. Since my distances on bulkheads, and such, are pretty much right on, it appears that the dimension for the pushtube at 47.5" is a tad too long? Jim Sears RV-6A #22220 (struggling with controls) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Brown <smbrown(at)cisco.com>
Subject: RV-6 Empennage and Wing for sale
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Before I could afford to build I wondered how one could let a project go without attention for a long period of time... well now unfortunately I do :-( The realities of work and family have caught up with me. I have a -6 empennage kit with a complete skeleton, started skinning but not attached and no work done on the vstab; prior to prepunch. This might be good for someone that wants to practice before starting theirs. Also have a complete, untouched wing, prepunched, w/Phlogiston spars; the spars were shipped to me mistakenly but I liked what I saw so kept them... I did pay for them :-) I'm feeling ambivalent about this, I hope one day to build it but if someone makes a reasonable offer in the $3k range, and would give it a good home, I'd consider it. -- Steve Brown Cisco Systems Phoenix. AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: paulr(at)colorado.cirrus.com (Paul Romano)
Subject: RV-4 Wing/Fuselage Kit
I am looking for an RV-4 Wing and/or Fuselage kit that has not been started. My preference is for a kit from Van's with the pre-drilled spars (but not assembled). Good opportunity to make some money to put towards the -8! Contact me off line, if interested. Paul paulr(at)colorado.cirrus.com Paulro(at)worldnet.att.net 303 939-8675 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Brake-wheel fairing interference
<< I've considered trying to heat the fairings and attempt to flex them inboard to try and provide enough clearance, or it may be possible to trim the access panels and form a bubble to provide the proper clearance. >> Mark, Do you have the correct length on the spacers for your wheel pant mounting plate? You might be able to bring it out a little more with longer spacers, or by adding a washer or two under the existing spacers. You might also double check and make sure your brake caliper is mounted properly.You should be very close to having enough room. If this doesent work you could build in a slight convex shape cover at the same time you are doing your gear leg intersection fairing layups. Ryan Bendure ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
<< BTW I pay 135.50 per month for half hangar and $100 for insurance. Gas $229 per month for 17 hours. Oil is 1.32 per hour and overhaul is $5. This yields a current operating cost of $43.29 per hour. I am flying as often as I can to try to get this cost down by running it up ;-)). >> Geez Dennis, I think it would be best if you kept a lid on this kind of information. If my wife found this out my flying career would be over. ; ). Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Comparison
Another consideration is resale value. I think it would be really tough to beat an RV. After five years of flying my RV-6 I sold the airplane in a couple of days at OSH for a 64% profit. I would challenge any other kit plane to show that kind of performance. Rick McBride RV-6 N523JC sold RV-8 #80027 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Comparison
Date: Feb 20, 1998
> Most importantly, and I would like soom feedback from those with > experience, the larger wing of the > RV6 should provide a much better power-off glide than the MII. I, too, would like to hear some words of wisdom on this from those with more aerodynamics knowledge than me. All other things being equal (which they aren't in this case, mind you) which would have the better L/D at best glide, the small-wing airplane or the large-wing airplane? The large-wing airplane will have more profile drag at all speeds, but it might well have less induced drag at best glide speed, due to a lower AOA, right? Which would have the dominant effect? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC -6 tail ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RICKRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
I had $32k invested in my RV-6 without tools. I built the airplane from 1988 to 1992. The engine cost $3.7k with a wood prop. The panel included full gyros, nav/com, transponder, loran (more than the cost of a superior GPS), and full night capability. I think you'd have to be a real scrounger to bring it in that low now. Rick McBride RV-6 N523JC RV-8 80027 (I've invested nearly $28k and am still working on the wings, ugh!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Magellin GPS
> >> From: Samuel Steele >> I have a Magellan Hand-Held GPS that is in excellent shape. For sale: >> $300. Please FAX me at: 504 865-2453 if interested. > >I just bought a new Magellan Pioneer GPS at K-Mart for $99. :-) > >Bob Moore Bob, I've seen those here but I'm still able to get the GPS2000 for $99 in lots of 6 (I give them away at my weekend seminars). I suspect the 2000 will go away and was wondering if the Pioneer works with a toot in an airplane. What say ye? Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection //// (o o) ==========o00o=(_)=o00o========== < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Bob Haan <bobh(at)cdac.com>
Subject: Re: F689 elevator push tube
>Jim Sears >RV-6A #22220 (struggling with controls) >when I set the sticks where I think neutral should be, the bellcrank at the >rear end of the pushtube is tilted forward about twenty degrees at the >top.Have any of you run into a similar problem? Jim, My fwd elevator push pull tube is the plans length of 47.5 and the elevator bellcrank is vertical when the elevators are neutral. I had to do the same things you did; grind the control assembly weldment to clear the fwd rod end bearing of the fwd elevator push pull tube and increase size of rectangular cutout in the 604 bulkhead by filling about 1/8 out of the top of this rectangle to give the fwd push pull tube more clearance. If you have not hooked up the rear push pull tube that goes from the bellcrank to the elevator control horns, I would not modify the fwd tube until this is done. The best way to find neutral is the elevators in line with the horizontal stab not the position of the stick. You may find every thing is can be adjusted ok. Bill Benedict, Van's GM, came to inspect my plane and he checked to make sure the bellcrank was vertical when the elevators were neutral. He said it was important. It is not clear to me why if the elevators travel the required angle up and down. But, I made sure it was vertical when the elevators are neutral. The rod end bearing should be threaded into the push pull tubes at least half way for safety. This way if a push pull tube rotates, one of the rod end bearings will bottom out before the other one unscrews. Once the neutral position for the elevators has been achieved with the bell crank vertical, notice, a final adjustment can be made to all 4 elevator control push pull tube rod end bearings. If you screw in (safer) the rod end bearings for say the rear push pull tube (shorten it) and hold the elevators in neutral, the bell crank top goes aft and the bell crank bottom goes forward. As a result, the fwd push pull tube rod end bearings also need to be screwed in (shortened.) This creates a neat opportunity to get all 4 rod end bearing screwed in more than half way. Bob Haan bobh(at)cdac.com Portland, OR RV6A 24461 Fuse out of jig, working on forward top deck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLaboyteau(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Brake-wheel fairing interference
<< Mark, Do you have the correct length on the spacers for your wheel pant mounting plate? You might be able to bring it out a little more with longer spacers, or by adding a washer or two under the existing spacers. >> I had to use slightly longer spacers than what the plans called out for. When I used the 13/32" dimension called out on sheet 45, the wheel fairings pushed the U-414 wheel fairing mount plate up against the brake disc. I wound up using ones that are 1/2" in length. But now that you mention it, another 1/8" might just be enough to take care of the problem. Duh, why didn't I think of this on my own? Thanks, Mark LaBoyteaux MLaboyteau(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Comparison
<< The large-wing airplane will have more profile drag at all speeds, but it might well have less induced drag at best glide speed, due to a lower AOA, right? Which would have the dominant effect? >> If I remember aero 101 from 1995, the best L/D on a drag vs. velocity curve is just to the right of the point where the parasitic(profile) drag and the induced drag are equal. Since the larger winged airplane will have more parasitic drag if the fuselage,etc. are about equal ,than the profile drag will also be larger and the L/D will not be as good on the RV. When I got a ride in an F-16 at Edwards( eat your heart out), we did a simulated engine out( engine to idle and speed brakes deployed) from Lake Isabelle at 28000 feet and when we arrived at Edwards we still were 5000 AGL. I don't know the air mile distance, but having driven it in a car, it must be over 60 miles. When an UL student says oh you must be able to glide a long way, I always use this as an illustration to show that the distance you go is poor in lightly loaded wings, but I would not want to attempt a landing in an F-16 in places where I could put my ULwith no sweat. Same thing here, Good news for the heavier wing loading Mustang II provided there is a nice long , hard landing site when you get there. Sorry for the long winded post. Bernie Kerr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)traveller.com>
Subject: That priming thing....
Derek Reed wrote: > I use the same product,due in part to the fact that I purchased a Kit > from another builder who had started with SW products so I just kept > right on using it.Personally I really don't worry much about this > 'primer' thing as I have no experience on any primer longevity,all I do > know is that I'm 70 now and my RV will sure last 'till the end of my > flying days,what happens to it when I'm gone I couldn't care less > about.Just do what you consider best and press on regardless. > Good Luck Derek, Your post is probably going to get me in hot water (or maybe, hot alodine...). For several weeks I have been biting my tongue (or is that "sitting on my hands"?) while the endless primer debate unfolded. It appears that some builders are obsessed with fabricating the "Eternal Aeroplane"! I really believe that some of the builders would have newbies believe that their shiny new RVs are going to corrode, crumble, and the resulting powder come wafting from the sky before the forty-hour flyoff is completed if the "Proper" primer is not religiously applied. Just how long do our RVs REALLY have to last? I am building a thirty-year aircraft. Thirty years from now, my flying days will almost certainly have been concluded due to a health problem of some sort. Besides, I don't know if it will even be legal to fly these contraptions in thirty years! And besides that, think you will be able to find a Lycoming in thirty years??? Most homebuilt aircraft do not live as long a life as factory built birds due to construction inconsistency, lack of proper maintenance, and just sheer neglect from a no-longer interested owner. True, the Vans series of airplanes have a better than average chance of outliving most homebuilts due to their fine engineering and conventional construction. But seriously, how long does your RV NEED to last?? If you are intent on constructing a monument to the art of homebuilt aircraft construction, then by all means, prime that sucker till the cows come home! No doubt, several decades from now, our children will be leading their grandkids up to the museum exhibit of your plane and all present will be awed by the wonderfully crafted but humorously primitive state of aircraft back when the RV was in its heyday. Chuckles will erupt as the oldsters recall airplanes with props, and the hilarious panel with its collection of watch-like movements and primitive electronics will have heads wagging as they wonder why anybody with time and money to spend would have expended so much care in the preservation of such antiquated technology. Far out? Think about it. Does your RV REALLY need to last sixty years? If so, then prime that sucker till the swallows come home. I was looking through the repair manual of our 1940 J-3 the other day. In the section on wing overhaul, it stated that all non-alclad parts should be primed. The inference was that alclad parts were fine in their natural state. I must admit that the "prime that sucker or watch it fall from the sky" syndrome is a hard one to repel. Against my better judgment I primed the ribs of my RV6 the other day, but I must admit, I felt really silly shooting perfectly good primer on the alclad parts. However, I realize that not all (maybe very few?) builders share my thoughts, so I have no intention of persuading anybody who is inclined to prime everything in sight from doing just that. Whew....I feel better now. My apologies for taking up bandwidth to vent. However, I really do feel that a lot of folks are getting torqued out of shape over stuff that should be resolved quickly and simply, and are generating much too much stomach acid about building a 100 year airplane instead of just getting out in the shape AND BUILDING THE THANG! After all........isn't the whole point of this exercise........to fly? Sam Buchanan (assembling both wing skeletons) sbuc(at)traveller.com "The RV Journal" http://www.ath.tis.net/~sbuc/rv6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Moore" <bobmoore(at)wwd.net>
Subject: Re: Magellin GPS
Date: Feb 20, 1998
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > I've seen those here but I'm still able to get the GPS2000 > for $99 in lots of 6 (I give them away at my weekend seminars). > I suspect the 2000 will go away and was wondering if the > Pioneer works with a toot in an airplane. What say ye? Haven't tried it airborne yet. It is internally identical to the 2000 (two channel, scanning) minus some waypoint storage capacity. In the face of the Garmin and Lowrance 12 channel, parallel receivers, Magellen is milking this old receiver for the last drop. Bob Moore ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JNice51355(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: FEMALE BUILDERS
The other day, my wife asked me if their were any female builders of RV's. I told her I wasn't sure, but thought there "must" be a few. Well, are there? If anyone knows of any women who are the primary builder of an RV, let me know please. It might help to "bring her on-board" if she can communicate with a female builder or at least a dedicated helper. You see, she has nothing against the project I am about to start, but if I can "light the fire", then she will be a much more willing participant.(Bucking Rivets) Jim Nice RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Engine Baffle Ignition Wire Seals
AC$ wants $7.25 each for the 5mm two-wire seal to bring ignition wires thru the engine baffles. I'm using a Lightspeed electronic ignition, which uses 7.5mm wires. I suppose I could buy the AC$ seals and drill them out a bit. Any listers have other clever ideas for this problem that have worked in service? Tim Lewis Fitting cowling. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Lewis N47TD (reserved) RV-6AQ #60023 on gear, engine mounted Springfield VA http://home.earthlink.net/~timrv6a timrv6a(at)iname.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Don McCall <mccall(at)cayman.ds.boeing.com>
Subject: Michael Markert?
Mike, I've tried to send you the RV-6A cost projection spreadsheet (twice), but your email address keeps getting bounced. Could you please send me the correct address? Thanks. Don McCall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Flyinghi(at)worldnet.att.net
Subject: Camlocs
Date: Feb 20, 1998
After reviewing Aircraft Spruce under camlocs, the choice for the cowl would seem to be the 2700 series camlocs. I would appreciate any direction as to what others are using, what size (dash #), spacing between camlocs, etc. Also, it would seem that along the sides would be an appropiate location. Do others do this and the same questions apply? How about installation? I see all type of expensive tools listed which would eliminate this plan for me. Although I have open and closed these a thousand times, I have never really looked at how they are installed. Do I need special tools or can this all be installed with builders tools that have grown considerably. Last question. What are the best places to purchase? Answers are always appreciated. Charles Golden N609CG 6A Chevy powered Finishing panel, working on cowl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: Unistar Computers <unistar(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Comparison of Wing size
(RVs vs MMII L/D stuff deleted) Tedd McHenry sez... >I, too, would like to hear some words of wisdom on this from those >with more aerodynamics knowledge than me. All other things being >equal (which they aren't in this case, mind you) which would have >the better L/D at best glide, the small-wing airplane or the large->wing airplane? Well if we take this to mean the *LONG* winged vs the *SHORT* winged plane of equal weight and wing area... (say we build different wings for the same fuselage and engine) then the LONGER wings will have better L/D. The Aspect Ratio affects aerodynamic efficiency as a portion of the high pressure "leaks" around the tips and spoils the performance of the outer ends of the wings. Thus the longer the wing is the less of the total wing is degraded. The down side is that it is difficult in terms of complexity, weight, and stiffness to build extremely high aspect ratio wings. The short wing is easier to build, weighs less, and can be considerably stiffer. >The large-wing airplane will have more profile drag at all speeds, >but it might well have less induced drag at best glide speed, due to >a lower AOA, right? Which would have the dominant effect? As pointed out above, if we had the same fuselage with 2 sets of wings of the *SAME AREA*, the profile drag would be equal. The reason those Reno Racers chop off the wing tips is to decrease wing *AREA* which lowers profile drag at the expense of induced drag. Since induced drag drops as speed increases, they don't care about the induced drag, only profile drag at 500+ mph. Your second comment sounds like you are wanting to compare wings of different *AREA* not length (aspect ratio). In this case if you build a second set of wings for your RV that is *TWICE* the size in each dimension you will have 4 times the area. Stall speed should drop with the sq.rt. of 2, and you'll be able to out slow fly a SuperCub. Unfortunately, the profile drag of all this additional wing area will kill your top speed, and the extra weight will make your useful load drop to a single place with 30 minutes fuel. Except for the weight you'd have an ultralight. Bob Steward, A&P IA AA-1B N8978L AA-5A N1976L ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PhilipR920(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: RMD Lighting
Tks to all who responded. I did get in touch with Bob DeBorde @ 503-628-6056 and ordered his lights. Apparently he is doing well as there is a backlog for the lights. I was impressed that he did not want any payment prior to shipping the kit. He said "Wait until look at it. If you like it send payment, if not send it back. As I have seen his lights on several RV's, I'm sure I'll like, but it's nice to deal with someone with his attitude. Phil Rogerson 6AQ60057 Fernandina Beach, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: "Paul Osterman III" <PineRanch(at)classic.msn.com>
Subject: Comm/Nav Radios
Hey Bob Nuckolls: Caught your comment: "trying to hit a Flightwatch remote site from 50 miles out with a Terra transmitter can stretch your uV/M pretty thin" on the Windshield Antenna thread. Forgetting the windshield antenna thread for a moment, would you elaborate a little more on your thoughts about Terra and some of the other manufacturers of comm and nav radios. My finish kit should be here in a month and I'm starting to think about what radio's/nav I'll be putting in. You know, no more dreaming, it's time to make some choices and write a check. I must confess that although I've been flying for over 20 years, to me (a rental pilot) a radio has been well, just a radio. I assume that all the majors are equal in quality, King, Narco, Terra, II Morrow...but since magazine reviews seem to be mostly a review of features & benefits, I don't know how accurate my assumption really is. I've just never paid much attention to manufacturer's reputation for quality & service, or any of the "specifications" I see on the back of some of the sell sheets I've picked up here and there. For example, some comm radios have 5 watts of transmitting power while others have 8 or 10. I've assumed that more watts means more clarity over a longer distance, but I haven't a clue as to whether or not this is discernable to an average weekend driver or is even true. Is there a general rule of thumb on transmission distance per watt? Which of the many specifications usually found on manufacturer's brochure are worthwhile paying attention to and trying to compare one unit to another? Given your experience and expertise, if you were in the market for a new set of radios for a cross country airplane, what criteria would you use to make your purchase decisions? Anything in particular you would avoid? Any general thoughts on the subject would be appreciated as usual. Paul Osterman RV6A Fuse out of jig Anderson, Ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Windshield Antenna
Date: Feb 20, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com <SportAV8R(at)aol.com> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 11:06 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Windshield Antenna > ><< radio frequency power... can cause > cancer. >> > >Warning: if we are not disciplined in our handling of this topic, a thread >could be started which could one day occupy more archive space than the >dreaded p----r thread>>>> > >IMHO, building and flying an experimental airplane is serious business and >deserves our focused attention. RF cancer scares are, at present, >unsubstantiated hysteria, and should not distract or detract from the serious >fun we should be having in our workshops. > >>Bill B > I concur with Bill! I have am active in the field of radiation detection and measurement and I have come to detest people who play upon the fears of others with the dreaded RADIATION themes: Radon, CRT screens, power lines and now RF from cell phones. The risk of injury from flying an experimental aircraft is orders of magnitude (1000 times, 10000 times, a whole lot) greater than sustaining any kind of injury from the RF levels generated by a com radio. This is substantiated by aviation insurance risk tables based on statistically relevant data. There are no data whatever on injuries from RF levels associated with com radios. In all seriousness, if one's risk aversion carries over to RF fields from small transmitters than perhaps this is the wrong hobby -- experimental aircraft flying does carry a much higher risk than many other pursuits. Those of us who love aviation learn to understand and manage those risks. Dennis Persyk 6A finishing kit Barrington, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DenClay(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Nutritional aluminum?
Hi folks Now that I have your attention, I am wondering if any of you experience the taste of aluminum after, say, scotchbriteing by hand for five minutes. I do often and it makes me pretty certain I am absorbing it thru my skin. Metals in the bod not good I think. Any Docs out there with an oppinion? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: Specific primer question
> >All, > >I decided to go with the Sherwin Williams Wash Primer #P60G2 and Catalyst Reducer #R7K44, largely because it is listed in the RV-8 construction manual as being acceptable. When I went to the local S/W Automotive store (the same store where I was able to find the elusive GBP988 rattle-can primer), they didn't recognize these specific products by name. After some discussion they happily sold me some "E2G973 Vinyl Etch Primer" and "R7K242 Reducer". > >Does anyone have experience with, or opinions on these products? > >Thanks, > >Larry >larry(at)bowen.com >Advance, NC >RV-8 Emp. > Larry, I am using the SW Wash Primer as well. This is the stuff Van's is using in their prototype shop. It is cheap and easy to shoot. Be sure to reduce it 2:1, instead of the 1.5:1 that SW recommends. It sprays easier, but is slightly more runny at first. It does dry to the touch quickly though. This is a semi-transluscent primer, which means that it is not designed to completely hide the metal underneath. It looks almost anodized when properly applied. > > > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Elevators - Wings ordered!! from a no-longer interested owner. True, the Vans >series of airplanes have a better than average chance of outliving most >homebuilts due to their fine engineering and conventional construction. > >But seriously, how long does your RV NEED to last?? > >If you are intent on constructing a monument to the art of homebuilt >aircraft construction, then by all means, prime that sucker till the >cows come home! No doubt, several decades from now, our children will be >leading their grandkids up to the museum exhibit of your plane and all >present will be awed by the wonderfully crafted but humorously primitive >state of aircraft back when the RV was in its heyday. Chuckles will >erupt as the oldsters recall airplanes with props, and the hilarious >panel with its collection of watch-like movements and primitive >electronics will have heads wagging as they wonder why anybody with time >and money to spend would have expended so much care in the preservation >of such antiquated technology. > >Far out? Think about it. Does your RV REALLY need to last sixty years? >If so, then prime that sucker till the swallows come home. > >I was looking through the repair manual of our 1940 J-3 the other day. >In the section on wing overhaul, it stated that all non-alclad parts >should be primed. The inference was that alclad parts were fine in their >natural state. > >I must admit that the "prime that sucker or watch it fall from the sky" >syndrome is a hard one to repel. Against my better judgment I primed the >ribs of my RV6 the other day, but I must admit, I felt really silly >shooting perfectly good primer on the alclad parts. However, I realize >that not all (maybe very few?) builders share my thoughts, so I have no >intention of persuading anybody who is inclined to prime everything in >sight from doing just that. > >Whew....I feel better now. My apologies for taking up bandwidth to vent. >However, I really do feel that a lot of folks are getting torqued out of >shape over stuff that should be resolved quickly and simply, and are >generating much too much stomach acid about building a 100 year airplane >instead of just getting out in the shape AND BUILDING THE THANG! > >After all........isn't the whole point of this exercise........to fly? > >Sam Buchanan (assembling both wing skeletons) >sbuc(at)traveller.com >"The RV Journal" http://www.ath.tis.net/~sbuc/rv6 > Sorry for quoting the entire post, but it ALL seemed relevant. I couldn't agree more with Sam's opinion. Aluminum does not just corrode into a useless heap if left unattended for an hour. In some climates it may not corrode at all - EVER. People sometimes ask me if I'm priming the inside of my empennage skins. I say no and they give me that "don't fly over my house" look. I'm certainly not against priming anything, but don't put a lot of weight on the issue. And by all means, don't let it hold up your project. Personally, I went with the SW system because it is cheap, foolproof to spray and painfully simple. Besides, this is what Van's is using on the RV8A prototype. If it's good enough for the designer, it's good enough for this flunkie builder. Again, sorry for the megabyte response, but very well said in my opinion Sam. > > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Elevators - Wings ordered!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 1998
From: jelford(at)TRANSPORT.COM (Jon Elford)
Subject: Re: F689 elevator pushtube
> >Listers, > >I'm working on the F689 forward elevator pushtube. I've carved out >the needed amount on the weldment to get the stick to come within >the 1/8" of the F604. I've gouged out some of the bulkhead for tube >clearance, though a tad more is needed. However, when I set the >sticks where I think neutral should be, the bellcrank at the rear end >of the pushtube is tilted forward about twenty degrees at the top. I've >made the pushtube per plan and have screwed the rod ends all the >way into the bearings. Although I seem to be getting plenty of travel, >I don't really like the bellcrank being off by that much. Have any of >you run into a similar problem? I seems the geometry would dictate >some deficiency in the elevator throws, one way or other. Since my >distances on bulkheads, and such, are pretty much right on, it >appears that the dimension for the pushtube at 47.5" is a tad too >long? > >Jim Sears >RV-6A #22220 (struggling with controls) > > ________________________________________________________________________________ the two pivot points on your bellcrank to be centered in a vertical line with the stick in the neutral position. That way any fore or aft stick movement would yield the same rate of travel at the elevators. The situation you describe seems like it would yield a faster rate of travel with aft stick movement than foreward movement from neutral. Looking WAY ahead in my plans shows you are correct in your 47.5" length. Is this the length of just the aluminum tube or is this the total length from bearing center to bearing center? A look at the instructions says that the stick should be neutral (0-5 degrees foreward) and the bellcrank vertical, then the rod cut to length planning for good thread depth into the tube. No mention of the 47.5" spec. I get the impression it's a custom fit deal, which makes sense as everyone's fuselage length will vary a little. Just my $.02 worth (albeit from a semi-newbie). Oh to be where you are!! > > > Jon Elford RV6 #25201 Elevators - Wings ordered!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: What's the Average Completion Cost for Night VFR RV
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 20, 1998
>I had $32k invested in my RV-6 without tools. I built the airplane >from 1988 >to 1992. The engine cost $3.7k with a wood prop. The panel included >full >gyros, nav/com, transponder, loran (more than the cost of a superior >GPS), and >full night capability. I think you'd have to be a real scrounger to >bring it >in that low now. > >Rick McBride >RV-6 N523JC >RV-8 80027 (I've invested nearly $28k and am still working on the >wings, ugh!) > > It does take some scrounging but I think it can still be done for under $30,000. One good way for someone on a tight budget to complete an RV is to use some of the major salvage outfits for parts. I know of RV's (mine included) that have been completed this way. You can buy anything that you need at reduced prices from new (including engines) and get a guaranty that it will all work when you first start test flying the airplane. Working with homebuilders has become a big part of there business and the are often good about making package deals if you buy a lot of stuff. The only one I have personal experience with is Wentworth in Mpls. They were good to do business with and replaced a couple of items that I didn't like the condition of. Also replaced an instrument after it failed in the first 10 hours or so, no questions asked. This option might be something to consider when shopping for parts and accessories. A lot of parts I prefer to not purchase used but a lot of items are just fine in an RV if they have been previously "flight tested". Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. Finally Sold! These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Comparison
<34EDB47E.1258(at)tc3net.com>
From: smcdaniels(at)juno.com (SCOTT R MCDANIELS)
Date: Feb 20, 1998
I apologize for not having more specific info on the following, I will try to find it. Some interesting reading on a comparison of the MII and the RV-6 was published in kit planes quite a few years ago. An aviation writer once wrote an article about the wonderful new home built that he had bought, an MII. He remarked about considering an RV-6 but knew that Fat wing airplane wouldn't perform as well. Well Van wrote him a letter and the duel was scheduled. I'm sure most of us can guess at the outcome. Needless to say, the writer ended up doing another article (the one published in Kitplanes). Does anyone out there know the issue it was published in? Otherwise I will find it and post it here if any one is interested. Scott McDaniels RV-6A N64SD 560+ Hrs. Finally Sold! These opinions and ideas are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PANNAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Engine Baffle Ignition Wire Seals
In a message dated 2/20/98 9:16:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, timrv6a(at)earthlink.net writes: >> Try a Lycoming dealer in your area to see what they get for them. I have them from Lycoming, have'nt used them yet, still in bag. I imagine they are sized for the Slicks that came on engine! Dave (RV-6) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PANNAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: That priming thing....
In a message dated 2/20/98 9:17:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbuc(at)traveller.com writes: << Sam Buchanan (assembling both wing skeletons) sbuc(at)traveller.com >> Sam----- I do'nt think your wing ribs are ALCLAD!!!! Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mcomeaux" <mcomeaux(at)cmc.net>
Subject: RV6A bottom seat skin
Date: Feb 20, 1998
Suppose a guy trimmed his seat belt holes just a little to large for his likeing. Is this something that really shows up as you look in I am unable to remember what it looks like. Also is there anybodys homepage constructing a 6AQB? With pictures to view? Thanks ----Mike Comeaux RV6A QB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GHLX34A(at)prodigy.com (MR GEORGE T KILISHEK)
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: RV-8 Wing Top Skins
Thanks to all who replied to my question. Here's feedback on the results. I gently (hand pressure only) bent the trailing edge skin to conform to airfoil shape aft of the spar, and relocated the aileron gap seal to hold it there. Now fits fine, except for a small discontinuity at the spar flange. Lesson for all: check the angle of the rear spar flanges before riveting skins on: they can be corrected with hand seamer at that point, but only with great difficulty later. It may not be such a big deal as I thought, anyway. Following is Van's take on the matter (from Ken): Subject: Re: RV-8 wing top skin I have seen many RVs where the skin flares back a little aft of rear spar. I have never detected any difference in flight characteristics. About the only solution I can see is to use hand seamers to bend the rear spar flange to a little steeper angle. Ken >I have my left wing on the table, aileron fitted and as I fit the gap >seal I found this problem: > >The top wing skin, instead of following the airfoil shape downward >over the aileron, comes directly aft from the rear spar (it appears >to be parallel to the chord line, although exact measurement is >difficult). It appears to be followiing the line of the top flange >of the rear spar, which seems to be parallel to the chord line, >rather than sloping downward as the drawing shows. > George Kilishek #80006 Seeing if I can screw up the flap alignment ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KBoatri144(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: That priming thing....
<< Sam Buchanan (assembling both wing skeletons) >sbuc(at)traveller.com >> >Sam----- >I do'nt think your wing ribs are ALCLAD!!!! The ribs are alclad, as is everything I can think of which was made from aluminum sheet. Most (maybe all) of the extruded bar stock and angle isn't alclad and should be pr**ed. KB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Nutritional aluminum?
<< I am wondering if any of you experience the taste of aluminum after, say, scotchbriteing by hand for five minutes. I do often and it makes me pretty certain I am absorbing it thru my skin. >> What you're really doing IMO is breathing the finely divided dust. Blow your nose later and you will see the blue/gray of aluminium dust in your snot. Since we all swallow quarts of snot every day (sorry to be so graphic, but it's true) you are ingesting the dust and tasting it on the way down. Yuk! Wear dust mask or you will go as crazy as the rest of us, wandering around the airport aimlessly and mumbling about airplane this and that. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: Re: FEMALE BUILDERS
you wrote: > It might help to "bring her on-board" if she can communicate with a > female builder or at least a dedicated helper. You see, she has nothing > against the project I am about to start, but if I can "light the fire", then > she will be a much more willing participant.(Bucking Rivets) > While I am not a female builder, I have the most dedicated helper in the world; My wife. She will drop everything and give me a hand anytime. Drives a mean rivet too! She is a loyal fan and is eagerly awaiting the day we can fly it to Oshkosh. Drop us a line, my wife would love to talk to yours Gary and Carolyn Zilik RV-6A s/n 22993 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: FEMALE BUILDERS (also helpers in general)
Date: Feb 21, 1998
I almost always let my helpers use the gun while I buck. It makes them happier and they come back to help next time I ask. I do think that bucking is harder than shooting. My 13 year old daughter does flawless work with the rivet gun. Steve Soule RV-6A fuselage STILL in the jig -----Original Message----- ..... then > she will be a much more willing participant.(Bucking Rivets) .... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kerrjb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: FEMALE BUILDERS
There was a female builder of an RV4 several month ago in Sport Avaiation. If you can't find it, write me off line and I will see if I can. Bernie Kerr kerrjb(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Fran Malczynski <fmalczy(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Magellin GPS
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Pioneer works with a toot in an airplane. What say ye? > My wife bought me the Pioneer for Christmas and I've tried it several times in a Cherokee 140 that I fly. Works great. to my knowledge I've not lost tracking with it and I usually just lay it on the right front seat when flying alone. However, when driving around in my car I do have to keep it positioned so that it see's the sky or I do lose tracking. It's very basic and other then the ability to mark where you are at a point in time all info is entered manually. It,s compact and easily fits in a shirt pocket. The navigation screen is straight forward giving heading, bearing, distance, speed plus steering directions and number of satellites being tracked. You can set up a single route with several waypoints. In my opinion, for $99 you cannot go wrong. I wanted it so that I could practice navigating with it so that when I finally did install one in my RV6 project I would have a more then general idea of what GPS navigation was all about. I have also taken it hiking with similar results and ordered a mounting kit from Cabela's so that I could mount it on my boat to mark where I caught that really big Lake Ontario salmon in the spring and fall. Thanks Fran Malczynski RV6 (Wings, still) Olcott, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack K. Holley" <jkholley(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Nutritional aluminum?
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Importance: Normal > Hi folks > Now that I have your attention, I am wondering if any of you experience the > taste of aluminum after, say, scotchbriteing by hand for five minutes. I do > often and it makes me pretty certain I am absorbing it thru my skin. Metals > in the bod not good I think. Any Docs out there with an oppinion? > > If you're tasting it, you're probably inhaling it. IF it can be absorbed through the skin (lots of argument on that), you would likely not absorb enough to cause you to taste it. Medically: Aluminum has been linked (not fully substantiated yet) to conditions like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Of course, there are MANY other factors than just Al levels, so don't get too concerned about it. IMO it's still the safest material to build with. Recommendations: Wear a good mask when scotchbriting, etc. Take a good multi-vitamin/mineral and antioxidants. Feel free to email me privately if you have other questions! Dr. Jack K. Holley, D.C. Chiropractic Physician jkholley(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 1998
From: pagan <pagan(at)CBOSS.COM>
Subject: Fiberglass Tips
How might one go about closing the fiberglass tips on the elevators/rudder if one were uncomfortable with fiberglass? I've been playing around with an aluminum cap but it is difficult at best to form and then what? rivet in place? How about some discussion....inquiring minds want to know!!! Bill Pagan 80555 waiting on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: BStobbe <coro_01(at)weblabs.com>
Subject: Re: F689 elevator pushtube
22> >I'm working on the F689 forward elevator pushtube. I've carved out >the needed amount on the weldment to get the stick to come within >the 1/8" of the F604. I've gouged out some of the bulkhead for tube >clearance, though a tad more is needed. However, when I set the >sticks where I think neutral should be, the bellcrank at the rear end Jim, I just finished doing this so maybe the following will help: The placement of my bulkheads is pretty accurate too, but both of my elevator pushrods had to be made shorter than the plans dimensions in order to have the bellcrank vertical with the stick in the neutral position, and the elevators in neutral at the same time. I think that the plans really intend to give you a starting point that is safe - ie; too long - and you cut and fit from there. I used the view of the bellcrank that shows the top hole for the elevator pushrod aligned with the aft edge of F628 on dwgs 32 and 40 to check for vertical positioning. Like you, I also had to grind away at the weldment and cut add'l material from the top edge of the cutout in F605 - I think about 1/8" was necessary there. BTW, when you mount the elevators you will probably find that you have some more fitting and cutting to do - I had to enlarge the fwd edge of the hole in the aft deck and remove material from the rear spar channel of the HS in order to get full down deflection, but from what I've read on the list, this is quite common and causes no problems. Hope this helps! Bruce Stobbe RV-6 control stops, etc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Patrick Kelley <patk(at)mail.ic.net>
Subject: Re: FEMALE BUILDERS
Jim, yes, there are female builders. At least one has been a participant on the list. However, be aware that there is a whole slough of RV wives. Many of them are as gung-ho about the project as their husband. If your wife is going to be a partner in your project, she might get more out of talking to them. My wife is one of these. She was a little reserved at first, but she let me go ahead. I made sure that she got to help, and she learned to rivet at the same time I did. You can see her rivetting on my web page at http://ic.net/~patk/rv6a.htm and I would be happy to forward email to her if your wife wants to ask questions. Involvement wasn't enough - it wasn't until I dragged her to a gathering of the Michigan Wing that she really believed that these things actually get off the ground. That's all it took. While she declined to take a demo ride at Oshkosh, she can't wait until we can take a flying vacation in our own RV. So, get your wife out to where the RVs gather and let her meet some of the women behind the RVs there. That'll bring her around. PatK - RV-6A JNice51355(at)aol.com wrote: > > The other day, my wife asked me if their were any female builders of RV's. I > told her I wasn't sure, but thought there "must" be a few. Well, are there? > If anyone knows of any women who are the primary builder of an RV, let me know > please. It might help to "bring her on-board" if she can communicate with a > female builder or at least a dedicated helper. You see, she has nothing > against the project I am about to start, but if I can "light the fire", then > she will be a much more willing participant.(Bucking Rivets) > Jim Nice > RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Luker, Michael G." <luker.michael(at)mayo.edu>
Subject: This or that
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Martin, Years ago I pondered on the very same questions you are asking, you have made an excellent choice by asking others imput. Number one: go to a friends or fellow builder house who is building a fiberglass airplane. Before you spend $30,000.00 Rub some epoxy based resin wet, and dust (Not Polyester) on your arm to see if your allergic, you might have to wait several days to see if there is a reaction. Many people are allergic to these resins, I'm one of those people. Number two: Ask Lancar if you can land that airplane on grass regularly? Number three:, if question number two is negative, ask yourself what options you have left if an emergency landing needs to be made and all you have is grass and fields. Number 4: Ask Lancair what the speed is of there airplane at stall, and when they come over the numbers, now refer to Number three. A ruff landing in a RV at 45-55 mph is much better than a crash landing at 90mph in a Lancair (survivability?). Now you say that you don't plan on flying on grass strips(limiting your travel plans), concrete is your pleasure. Then ask yourself this, in the future will you be able to afford landing at privately controlled airports when they start charging you for every takeoff landing. In addition, do you want to participate in fly in's? Many of those are held on grass fields. Lastly, I was born and raised on a 400 acre dairy farm in Oshkosh WI. I've seen many beautiful airplanes, I've also seen several piled up bloody messes in various fields around Oshkosh, in fact my sisters tried to save the lives of two pilots that crashed into Lake Winnebago. And you know the thing I remember most in these accidents is the piled up pieces of fiberglass. There were 3 airplanes that servived forced landing on our farm. One was a kitfox, the other two were aluminum, I can't remember type. In each of the 3 events, the pilot fixed their airplanes and took off. Martin the choice is yours, but think it out clearly!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp(at)carlsbad.net>
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: FEMALE BUILDERS
> > > The other day, my wife asked me if their were any female builders of RV's. I > told her I wasn't sure, but thought there "must" be a few. Well, are there? > If anyone knows of any women who are the primary builder of an RV, let me know > please. It might help to "bring her on-board" if she can communicate with a > female builder or at least a dedicated helper. You see, she has nothing > against the project I am about to start, but if I can "light the fire", then > she will be a much more willing participant.(Bucking Rivets) > Jim Nice > RV6A Until recently there were quite a few posts from Cheryl Sanchez on the list. From the name I assume she is female and she certainly seemed to be a primary builder. The last posts I remember from her were about engine installation I believe. I have wondered how she is doing. You could check the subscription list to see what her e-mail address is, if she is still on the list that is. Larry Pardue RV-6Q Still working on canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Forward elevator pushrod (F689)
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Thanks to Jon, Dennis, and Gil who responded very quickly to my plight concerning the forward elevator pushrod length. As a result of their input, I removed one rod end from the tube and cut one inch from it. This was after I had made some measurements to see what I needed to have good grip on the threads as well as some adjustment room. I allowed about 1/8" adjustment either way on each end and made sure they would not unthread themselves with that much movement. With that, I tried the fit again. Perfect, as best I can tell for right now. I have 1/4" adjustment either way and have a bellcrank that's now sitting verticle at neutral. The control throws are much better with only one place bumping. That's where the skin of the seat floor makes it's bend upward toward the baggage compartment. Since this happens at just about the full throw forward on the sticks, I'm not worried about it. I'm not planning on inverted flight or inverted spins. I'll do well to do the possitive stuff from upright flight. :-) Of course, the truth to all of this won't come out for sure until I put the elevators on, huh? Anyway, I carefully drilled the holes and riveted things back together. Monday, I guess I'll drag the old HS down for fitting to fuselage. That should be fun! Jim Sears in KY RV-6A #22220 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MAlexan533(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: RV-8 Aileron Gap Seal Question
Where the aileron gap seals attach to the rear spar, there are the universal head 470 rivet heads (attaching the ribs) preventing the gap seal from laying flat against the rear spar. Do I just attach the thin (.020) gap seal by just bending it over the protruding rivets and riveting in between? Hope you can make sense of this. Also on the ends, the gap seal rests up on the aileron brackets. The plans call for 52" on the gap seal, the part is actually 52 1/4". Is it supposed to rest on these brackets? Thanks. Von Alexander RV-8#544 MAlexan533(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Fiberglass Tips
<< How might one go about closing the fiberglass tips on the elevators/rudder if one were uncomfortable with fiberglass? >> Find someone who likes to work in fiberglass and pay them, or alternately do reciprocal work for them that you enjoy. This is the greatest thing about the pooling of talent amongg homebuilders. Much of my fiberglass (short of the final sanding and filling) was done by my friends who are building a Wheeler Express. They actually enjoy composite work (go figure). I, on the other hand, enjoy electrical system design and panel wiring (among other things) so I did this for them in exchange. -GV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: One more thought on PRIMER
If the years 2075 AD through 2100 AD have any special meaning for you, then by all means go the super-primer route. If not or if you think this post is too simple then I wouldn't worry about corrosion. Just take care of the aircraft after it is built. Al ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Jim Cimino <jcimino(at)epix.net>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Aileron Gap Seal Question
Von, The ribs are supposed to have 426 rivets where the gap seal passes over them, you will have to drill out the rivets and install 426's. As far as the aileron braket, I left mine long on top and cut it at an angle on the end so it would not rest on the braket. Hope this helps. Jim Cimino RV-8 sn 80039 http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5771 (717)842-4057 N.E. Pennsylvania ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Paralleled Batteries Article
Some weeks ago, I promised to upload an updated version of the dual battery article I did for Sport Aviation a few years ago. It's finished and available at: <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_iso2.pdf> We've purchased the software to generate the widely accepted .pdf files. They're bigger than the old .html + graphics files but MUCH easier to maintain on our website. Further, they produce faithful printed copies of the work without regard to the idiosyncracies of your browser and screen resolution. Another feature you'll see in this and future postings of our printed materials is permission to republish any article in a not-for-profit educational endeavor. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < If you do, > < What you've always done, > < You will be, > < What you've always been. > ================================= <http://www.aeroelectric.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 1998
From: Mark Nielsen <Mark.Nielsen@fiedler-lp.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Baffle Ignition Wire Seals
> >AC$ wants $7.25 each for the 5mm two-wire seal to bring ignition >wires thru the engine baffles. I'm using a Lightspeed electronic >ignition, which uses 7.5mm wires. I suppose I could buy the AC$ >seals and drill them out a bit. Any listers have other clever ideas >for this problem that have worked in service? > I used a large grommet (AN931-4-16, if I remember correctly). I elongated the center hole so that two wires would fit through it, and slit one side so I could get it over the wires. After installation, I sealed all the gaps with high temperature silicon. It is not as pretty as the high priced seals, but it was easy to install and seems to work well. Mark RV-6; flying, 165 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leslie B. Williams" <lesliebwilliams(at)email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Aileron Gap Seal Question
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Von, if you already have both wing skins on, or if you have riveted using AN470s, putting in the AN426 rivets is not practical nor necessary. Just drill holes, cut slots, make cutouts, etc. in the gap seal to fit over the rivet heads and around the brackets. I have seen some that simply went over the rivets, but not for me. Les Williams/RV-6AQ/Tacoma WA > >Von, > The ribs are supposed to have 426 rivets where the gap seal passes over >them, you will have to drill out the rivets and install 426's. As far as >the aileron braket, I left mine long on top and cut it at an angle on the >end so it would not rest on the braket. Hope this helps. > > > >Jim Cimino >RV-8 sn 80039 >http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5771 >(717)842-4057 N.E. Pennsylvania > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4131rb(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 21, 1998
Subject: More info on dimple tape
Listers, This morning I flew out in a 5 ship formation flight for breakfast with 4 other RV's. After we ate and stood around the airplanes for a bit I noticed that Hal Smiths airplane had the dimple tape on it. It turns out his was the airplane in the article in sport aviation. The prop is hanging on the wall in his hangar. I inquired about the speed increase with the tape and the claims that the magazine article made. He told me that he didnt know how they came up with those numbers and that the whole thing was a bunch of BS. Thats right! He says that he cant even say that he had an increase of 1mph. BTW the prop thats in the article does not have dimple tape on it. The prop is actually dimpled. Just thought I would let you all know what he said before you waste time and energy finding and installing the tape. Its like everything else in life, if it sounds like its to good to be true it probably is. He


February 14, 1998 - February 21, 1998

RV-Archive.digest.vol-eg