RV-Archive.digest.vol-lh

August 02, 2001 - August 04, 2001



      -=-=-
      Looking forward to smashing rivets!
      
      ----- Original Message -----
From: Eric.J.Henson(at)chase.com
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Kevin, no problem, thats overkill. The only real test for it will be your die grinder, just be sure you protect your air tools from water coming through the hose. The other test will be if you want to paint your plane yourself using that compressor. Other than that no problem. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: glenn williams <willig10(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N Number
Charles anytime you want would be a good time. I applied for my permanent tail # the day my tail kit arrived here in Texas. I was worried and had heard tales of the state coming after you for a tax on the a/c. I applied at the tail section portion so if they came after me my total value for the plane was around 1200.00 at that time. I would not reserve a tail # unless you want a custom # but it will cost you to renew the reservation each year or so (if memory serves me right.) In my opinion it is cheaper to just get the permanent tail # right away. Glenn Williams --- Charles Brame wrote: > > > Hey guys, > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N > number? I have a number > reserved which will have to be renewed in December. > I am about a year > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property tax > is not a problem in > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the permanent > number rather than > just renew the reservation? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6AQB, Canopy > San Antonio > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > ==== Glenn Williams 8A A&P N81GW http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Sices" <michaelsices(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
>The AOA gauge is only good if you look at it, right? I believe the device has an annunciator that gives an aural warning when aoa gets to a certain point - before the stall. Probably, if you yank back on the stick hard enough, the accelerated stall may happen before there is time to hear the warning, like you say. Does anyone know if the RV just sort of chirps in an accelerated stall, or does it typically drop a wing? (I'm sure a lot of this is dependant on attitude of flight, engine prop combo etc.) Thanks, Mike Sices RV8 QB >From: Are Barstad <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:07:54 EDT > > >I personally lean towards not having any AOA devices at all but will have >EI's super clock with the Density Altitude display and adjustable bugs on >my airspeed gauge. I intend to learn and feel how to fly the aircraft based >on the airspeed gauge, density altitude and proper weight & balance work... >and most importantly, by looking outside and flying by the seat of your >pants. ahhh... 'conventional' flying :) > >If you constantly find density altitudes and the weight of your aircraft >the way you loaded it a surprise, you might want to take up gardening... >unless of course, you're landing on carriers frequently. THEN it will make >a difference. Or of course if you're just simply lazy and don't want to be >bothered with W&B or being on top of the density altitudes you fly in >(knowing the true effects) OR learn to know your aircraft. In commercial >aircraft, I can see a need since the weight is only being estimated. I have >the privilege of asking my passenger how much (s)he weighs... NEVER ask >your wife! Just fly _very_ fast. (just kidding!) :) > >I don't know about the RV's (yet) but in other aircraft I fly, I do lot of >stalls in many configurations and can feel it easily to prevent inadvertent >stalls. Didn't someone recently say that the RV-8's tail shakes 5 mph or so >before stall? > >Many, if not most of the stall/spin accidents happen when someone i.e. turn >base to final and add too much back pressure so they won't overshoot the >extended centerline of the runway (too proud to make it look like they >turned too late!). The increased G loading will increase the stall speed >and a wing could drop - sometimes the high wing (ask me how I know), >resulting in the deadly approach spin. I'm sure the AOA gauge will show >this but only the instant you pull (since you're close to stall already) >and when it's too late. The AOA gauge is only good if you look at it, >right? Do you think a guy trying to line up with the runway after he >misjudged a turn will look at the gauge? Wrong! LED's or not - take a last >look at it... after all, it told you that you lost control of the >aircraft... >I don't know about you but I currently at least a few times every 6 months >simulate take-off power departure stalls and base to final stalls at >~5000ft. Many times, my intentional base to final stalls will result in an >incipient spin but in Canada luckily, spin training is mandatory (or at >least was when I got my ticket). Practice slow flight and accelerated >stalls a lot and it might save your bacon some day. If you shy away from >it, it might get you some day. > >I'm no expert but do know how to fly a plane. Please correct me if I'm >totally wrong with any of the above. These discussions are (or at least >should be) healthy since it may bring out thoughts or experiences that >fosters a safer flying environment. > >Are >RV-8 Wings (I promise - no more rambling from me today!) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Weyant" <chuck(at)chuckdirect.com>
Subject: E Charts
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I can't find the URL for E Charts. Any help? Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Navaid & Speaking of FAA Paperwork
Date: Aug 02, 2001
If you are an EAA member, open your magazine, look up the toll free number for help with government issues and call. That is just another reason one joins EAA. Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Now, as to FAA paperwork: I have wanted to get my operating limitations changed to the latest version that allows major changes with a log entry, five hours of trouble free flying, and another specific log entry. The FSDO at Denver says they can't/won't help, and to get a DAR. I talked to a DAR in Boulder, who never called me back after promising to do so (He also wanted to make a complete inspection of the aircraft - along with an inspection fee I guess) A DAR in Pueble won't return my calls. What a way to run a ship!!!! John at Salida, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Tanner" <gtanner(at)bendcable.com>
Subject: E Charts
Date: Aug 02, 2001
http://www.echarts.cc/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Weyant Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:57 AM Subject: RV-List: E Charts I can't find the URL for E Charts. Any help? Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Centering the Ball at Cruise A/S
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Why the exception for the RV-8? Steve Johnson RV-8 finishing wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Graham" <beeb(at)teleport.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:08 PM Subject: RV-List: Centering the Ball at Cruise A/S > > Pugsley Engineering (my dog's Co.) has been playing with methods of > centering the ball on my RV-4FB. Here are some of the methods: > 5. Gear leg fairings; By far one of the best ways to effect yaw is the > gear leg fairing (that's why we put them on, right?) Often the reason we > need to move the ball is to compensate for the gear leg fairings interplay > with relative wind and prop swirl. Those who have flown with them on and > off can comment on this. Best do all testing with then off (except RV-8). > Once you have the ball where you wan it, then put them on and flight test > them. Adjust them until the ball is back in the center. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Kerr" <kerrjb(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread)
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Weird , we are: thinking about PANEL AGAIN AND MY AIRPLANE HAS BARELY BEEN FLYING A YEAR!! Ken DeGraff of Sensenich props ( a practical sort of geek) went over and looked at the Dynon display for me and he talked about the flicker. It was not noticeable enough to bother me visually. Is there another operational concern that it is too slow to use as a flight instrument?? Bernie Kerr, 6A, S Fla ____________________________________ " > > I saw them . > > I got yhe impression from them though that they are still a bit off. > > Did you notice the flicker? The refresh rate was seemingly about 15 Hz at > best. They *claim* that they can run at 24-30 Hz, but since they did not do > it at the show, I was not convinced as of the moment. > > Now if they either tighten up the s/w for more speed or add a faster > processor then I think it will be a nice device. Didn't spend much time on > the heat pitot/solid state gyro combo though as I was trying to get them to > give me the strsight scoop on the flicker. --------------------------------------------------- > Wondering about the panel components ... AGAIN!! ----------------------------------------------> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lkyswede(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Subject: Re: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting]
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Subaru Engines
Date: Aug 02, 2001
With all due respect to those considering Sub engines, are you not persuing "false economy". I'll preface this thought with the following comment. I DO believe that a properly installed and engineered Subaru installation in an RV is functionally superior to a Lycoming. In my humble opinion, current aircraft engines are the largest most overpriced lawnmower engines in existence. Ok that said, if I were building an RV, given the pricing of the Sub installation, I'd put a Lycoming in it. Why: 1) Installation Price - 17K for firewall forward - About what an O-320 costs. 2) Auto Fuel - Hmm. A 150 hp O-320 runs fine on Auto, 80, or 100LL. 3)******HERE'S THE BIGGIE***. Resale - As the list has shown, there are lots of potential RV buyers. How do you think it would go with a Sub engine, or any auto engine conversion??? If I were 65 yrs old and considered my RV to be the last plane I'd own, I'd probably build it with a Sub or a Mazda rotary. Electronic Ignition Fuel Injection Liquid Cooling Cheap parts Subaru Reliability (12" long crank with 5 bearings = bulletproof) Or .. If I intended to fly the plane 4000 hours during the time I owned it, I might use a converted auto engine. In that case, the lower maintenance costs might outweigh the poorer resale. But as it is, my plane is the second largest investment I have ever made in my life, and its resale value is not inconsequential. One of the justifications I have made to myself is that if I ever needed to sell my RV, I could get out of it what I put into it. Although that is really a fantasy when you consider ongoing costs, it is closer to reality when the plane has a standard engine. Best regards, Don Mei RV-4 N92CT 3B9 - Chester, CT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: N Number
Hey Glenn What did you enter in the bracket for engine specs on the request for an N number ?? There is an added bonus, I believe, to having a permanent N number early in the building, one which I hope nobody would ever have to exercise. That is, somebody messing with you kit whilst building, like breaking and entering and damaging, automatically becomes a federal offence. the local constabulate might be more enticed to look into your case....if memory serves me right. Gert glenn williams wrote: > > > Charles anytime you want would be a good time. I > applied for my permanent tail # the day my tail kit > arrived here in Texas. I was worried and had heard > tales of the state coming after you for a tax on the > a/c. I applied at the tail section portion so if they > came after me my total value for the plane was around > 1200.00 at that time. I would not reserve a tail # > unless you want a custom # but it will cost you to > renew the reservation each year or so (if memory > serves me right.) In my opinion it is cheaper to just > get the permanent tail # right away. > > Glenn Williams > > --- Charles Brame wrote: > > > > > > Hey guys, > > > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N > > number? I have a number > > reserved which will have to be renewed in December. > > I am about a year > > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property tax > > is not a problem in > > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the permanent > > number rather than > > just renew the reservation? > > > > Charlie Brame > > RV-6AQB, Canopy > > San Antonio > > > > > > > > through > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > Matronics! > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== > Glenn Williams > 8A > A&P > N81GW > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Tanner" <gtanner(at)bendcable.com>
Subject: N Number
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I have my N number reserved. What Form do I need to make it permanent? Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of gert Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: N Number Hey Glenn What did you enter in the bracket for engine specs on the request for an N number ?? There is an added bonus, I believe, to having a permanent N number early in the building, one which I hope nobody would ever have to exercise. That is, somebody messing with you kit whilst building, like breaking and entering and damaging, automatically becomes a federal offence. the local constabulate might be more enticed to look into your case....if memory serves me right. Gert glenn williams wrote: > > > Charles anytime you want would be a good time. I > applied for my permanent tail # the day my tail kit > arrived here in Texas. I was worried and had heard > tales of the state coming after you for a tax on the > a/c. I applied at the tail section portion so if they > came after me my total value for the plane was around > 1200.00 at that time. I would not reserve a tail # > unless you want a custom # but it will cost you to > renew the reservation each year or so (if memory > serves me right.) In my opinion it is cheaper to just > get the permanent tail # right away. > > Glenn Williams > > --- Charles Brame wrote: > > > > > > Hey guys, > > > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N > > number? I have a number > > reserved which will have to be renewed in December. > > I am about a year > > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property tax > > is not a problem in > > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the permanent > > number rather than > > just renew the reservation? > > > > Charlie Brame > > RV-6AQB, Canopy > > San Antonio > > > > > > > > through > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > Matronics! > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== > Glenn Williams > 8A > A&P > N81GW > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ellis H Mcgaughy" <Ellis.H.Mcgaughy-1(at)usa.dupont.com>
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Subject: Backriveting HS
I've read where some builders backrivet wing skins, fuselage skins, etc. to give a better appearance. Is it possible or advisable to backrivet either the skins on the HS or VS .... only one side could probably be done. If so, what rivet set would be used in the gun? I don't see how the standard backrivet set would fit inside the rib flanges. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Kevin, The little water "gascolator" won't do too much for you unless you mount it quite a ways from the compressor. I mounted a bigger version of one of those on my compressor for mobile use, and found that I still got a lot of water at the nail gun. When I set up my shop, I piped it in copper. I ran a rubber hose from the compressor up to the joists and from there it's all copper and all downhill. Wherever I tapped the line for air outlets, I came off the top of the pipe and u'ed down so that whatever water is in the main line runs to the end of the line, where I put a drain valve. At quitting time, I drain the "gascolator" (which gets the run back from the first rise) and the compressor. I rarely see any water at the end of the line drain and never at my air tools. By the way, I plumbed in another regulator off the top at the end of line, with large air drier for painting, and I keep that one set for rivet gun and run a hose from there to the work. I've still got full pressure for drills and die grinders every where else. Put a couple of drops of oil in your tools. If you're working all day, oil 'em again after lunch if you like. Don't oil the system. More air storage helps, but takes longer to recharge. There's no substitute for cubic inches (in engines and compressor pumps). Ed Holyoke 6QB panel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? > > What about tool oiling? I see oiling manifolds for house air rigs. > I'm not sure if I want oil vapor injected into my air hoses if that's > what these things do. I'd assume anyone that uses those has a > separate hose for painting operations? > > This is my first attempt at using air powered tools, so I'd like to > do things properly. > > As for the die grinder, I wonder if connecting the 11 gallon tank > inline with the compressor's tank would help? > > Kevin > -=-=- > Looking forward to smashing rivets! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric.J.Henson(at)chase.com > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:37 AM > To: kevinschlosser(at)msn.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > > Kevin, no problem, thats overkill. The only real test for it will be your > die grinder, just be sure you protect your air tools from water coming > through the hose. The other test will be if you want to paint your plane > yourself using that compressor. Other than that no problem. > > Eric > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Are, ref the 'look at gauges'.... The AOA I purchased from Van's has a young lady 'on board', when you are about to lose it, she says, "push the stick. push the stick." No looking at gauges. You might want to look at the gauge on a 'short field' landing. Barry POte RV9a fuselage. Are Barstad wrote: > > > I personally lean towards not having any AOA devices at all ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: glenn williams <willig10(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N Number
I put what I intended to have on the airplane. i.e lycoming 0-360A1A. No serial number. As I didnt have one then. I now have the 0-360A1A and it has no data plate. Hence no serial # but that will be remedied when I rebuild the engine with my own data plate and when the dar inspects the plane I intend to have the 40 hour test period on my experimental "certified" engine. Glenn Williams --- gert wrote: > > > Hey Glenn > > What did you enter in the bracket for engine specs > on the request for an > N number ?? > > There is an added bonus, I believe, to having a > permanent N number early > in the building, one which I hope nobody would ever > have to exercise. > That is, somebody messing with you kit whilst > building, like breaking > and entering and damaging, automatically becomes a > federal offence. the > local constabulate might be more enticed to look > into your case....if > memory serves me right. > > Gert > > glenn williams wrote: > > > > > > > Charles anytime you want would be a good time. I > > applied for my permanent tail # the day my tail > kit > > arrived here in Texas. I was worried and had heard > > tales of the state coming after you for a tax on > the > > a/c. I applied at the tail section portion so if > they > > came after me my total value for the plane was > around > > 1200.00 at that time. I would not reserve a tail # > > unless you want a custom # but it will cost you to > > renew the reservation each year or so (if memory > > serves me right.) In my opinion it is cheaper to > just > > get the permanent tail # right away. > > > > Glenn Williams > > > > --- Charles Brame wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey guys, > > > > > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N > > > number? I have a number > > > reserved which will have to be renewed in > December. > > > I am about a year > > > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property > tax > > > is not a problem in > > > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the > permanent > > > number rather than > > > just renew the reservation? > > > > > > Charlie Brame > > > RV-6AQB, Canopy > > > San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > Matronics! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== > > Glenn Williams > > 8A > > A&P > > N81GW > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the > amount of $500 > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > ==== Glenn Williams 8A A&P N81GW http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Oberst" <jfoberst(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: N Number
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I didn't reserve mine at all, I just applied for it - years ago, and I'm not flying yet. I got a tax bill (really an inquiry) from Ohio, but one of the choices was "not airworthy". I suggest you just get it now. Jim Oberst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Brame" <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: RV-List: N Number > > Hey guys, > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N number? I have a number > reserved which will have to be renewed in December. I am about a year > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property tax is not a problem in > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the permanent number rather than > just renew the reservation? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6AQB, Canopy > San Antonio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Bower" <rvbuilder(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Backriveting HS
Date: Aug 02, 2001
IMHO, backriveting is nice, but does not give such a great look that you have to jump through hoops to do it. The top wing skins and most of the fuselage can be back riveted because they have more interior room. Indeed, the wing leading edges and tanks don't lend themselves too well to back riveting unless there are some methods I'm not aware of. The rivet gun is just too big to fit inside. I achieved a very nice finish on the HS skins by using a helper to run the gun while I bucked. (I kicked some smiles into the VS skins because I tried doing them alone.) I seriously doubt anybody will be able to tell the difference after painting. The best part of back riveting in my mind is that it virtually eliminates that nasty habit the flat rivet set has of walking around while setting the rivet. Also, the person doing the bucking doesn't have to have any expertise at it, because all they are doing is holding a heavy weight against an already flat rivet head. Jim Bower St. Louis, MO RV-6A N143DJ Wings (fuse on order) >From: "Ellis H Mcgaughy" <Ellis.H.Mcgaughy-1(at)usa.dupont.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Backriveting HS >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:12:55 -0400 > > > >I've read where some builders backrivet wing skins, fuselage skins, etc. to >give a better appearance. > >Is it possible or advisable to backrivet either the skins on the HS or VS >.... only one side could probably be done. > >If so, what rivet set would be used in the gun? I don't see how the >standard backrivet set would fit inside the rib flanges. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Lift Reserve URL...
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Absolutely! My mistake. "C", "N", "OK, "M" etc. The goal is to get them out there. Once installed, you will be amazed just what you know with AOA that airspeed fails to deliver. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Are Barstad Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:34 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Lift Reserve URL... How 'bout "C" 'numbers'? :) Are RV-8 Wings C-GQRV (reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: August 1, 2001 10:07 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Lift Reserve URL... RV owners. Send your "N" number and get a $50 discount. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: N Number
Thanks. Gert glenn williams wrote: > > > I put what I intended to have on the airplane. i.e > lycoming 0-360A1A. No serial number. As I didnt have > one then. I now have the 0-360A1A and it has no data > plate. Hence no serial # but that will be remedied > when I rebuild the engine with my own data plate and > when the dar inspects the plane I intend to have the > 40 hour test period on my experimental "certified" > engine. > > Glenn Williams > > --- gert wrote: > > > > > > Hey Glenn > > > > What did you enter in the bracket for engine specs > > on the request for an > > N number ?? > > > > There is an added bonus, I believe, to having a > > permanent N number early > > in the building, one which I hope nobody would ever > > have to exercise. > > That is, somebody messing with you kit whilst > > building, like breaking > > and entering and damaging, automatically becomes a > > federal offence. the > > local constabulate might be more enticed to look > > into your case....if > > memory serves me right. > > > > Gert > > > > glenn williams wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Charles anytime you want would be a good time. I > > > applied for my permanent tail # the day my tail > > kit > > > arrived here in Texas. I was worried and had heard > > > tales of the state coming after you for a tax on > > the > > > a/c. I applied at the tail section portion so if > > they > > > came after me my total value for the plane was > > around > > > 1200.00 at that time. I would not reserve a tail # > > > unless you want a custom # but it will cost you to > > > renew the reservation each year or so (if memory > > > serves me right.) In my opinion it is cheaper to > > just > > > get the permanent tail # right away. > > > > > > Glenn Williams > > > > > > --- Charles Brame wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey guys, > > > > > > > > At what point should one apply for a permanent N > > > > number? I have a number > > > > reserved which will have to be renewed in > > December. > > > > I am about a year > > > > away from flying (on a rolling basis.) Property > > tax > > > > is not a problem in > > > > my area. Can I, should I, apply for the > > permanent > > > > number rather than > > > > just renew the reservation? > > > > > > > > Charlie Brame > > > > RV-6AQB, Canopy > > > > San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > Matronics! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== > > > Glenn Williams > > > 8A > > > A&P > > > N81GW > > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > -- > > is subject to a download and archival fee in the > > amount of $500 > > > > > > > > through > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > Matronics! > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== > Glenn Williams > 8A > A&P > N81GW > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Are, Unlike the airspeed indicator, the AOA device senses the same pressures that your airfoil sees. The AOA then displays that angle of attack almost instantly. Not only does it tell you when you've reached a critical angle of attack, it also shows the trend on the display and warns you AS YOU APPROACH that critical angle of attack. One of these days when our planes are complete, we'll be up at a safe altitude and pull up to see how that newly built baby will climb. If we pull up hard and wait for the airspeed indicator to get to the stall speed, you will most certainly have already stalled and started your recovery well before the ASI gets to stall speed. We all practice (or should practice) stalls in the departure and landing configurations. We're set up for it, we're looking for it and we can feel the controls as we get close to it. No problem. We correct our control inputs and go about our business. None of the stories I've read about, where pilots have stalled and died, happened while they were practicing stalls. No, they were doing something else. Maybe they were flying along at a slow speed to check out the neighborhood. Eyes outside, they see something they like and turn to check it out. As you said, eyes outside, flying the airplane. Maybe you get distracted at slow flight and turn to look at something and inadvertently give that sensitive RV stick a little tug more than you meant to (a certain John Denver story comes to mind). There are a bazillion scenarios that can hurt you and I don't think it has anything to do with being a good pilot or not. Lots of good pilots have met their maker in stall/spin accidents. A certain, very experienced, Glassair pilot last week at OSH with a bunch of hours comes to mind also. Looking at the AOA indicator is no different than looking at the airspeed indicator. We can fly with our heads outside the cockpit all day long but we still look at the airspeed indicator when flying slow. Why do we do that? Cause we don't want to fly to slow and stall. Why not look at an instrument that gives you more information than an airspeed indicator? You can still "fly with your head outside the cockpit". I can't speak for the others, but the PSS AOA instrument gives an audible warning as you NEAR the critical AOA. Get a little slow inadvertently and that cute little voice wakes you from your day dream "Angle, Angle, Push". Many of us are installing heated pitot/static systems in the anticipation of flying in the clouds or at night. Departing in IFR conditions regardless of airport density altitude or aircraft weight, I can't think of anything better than taking off, setting up a departure angle of attack and be on my merry way. A quick crosscheck with the ASI might just remind you that you forgot to turn on the pitot as the airspeed indicator winds down. Lots of planes have been flying lots of years without using an AOA devices. They will continue to do so. Lots of planes have been flying lots of years without GPS too, but having one sure makes getting lost harder to do. Flying by AOA sure makes inadvertent stalling less likely also. Thanks for the good discussion. Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Plainfield, IL RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps Stinson 108-2 N9666K > > I personally lean towards not having any AOA devices at all but will have EI's super clock with the Density Altitude display and adjustable bugs on my airspeed gauge. I intend to learn and feel how to fly the aircraft based on the airspeed gauge, density altitude and proper weight & balance work... and most importantly, by looking outside and flying by the seat of your pants. ahhh... 'conventional' flying :) > > If you constantly find density altitudes and the weight of your aircraft the way you loaded it a surprise, you might want to take up gardening... unless of course, you're landing on carriers frequently. THEN it will make a difference. Or of course if you're just simply lazy and don't want to be bothered with W&B or being on top of the density altitudes you fly in (knowing the true effects) OR learn to know your aircraft. In commercial aircraft, I can see a need since the weight is only being estimated. I have the privilege of asking my passenger how much (s)he weighs... NEVER ask your wife! Just fly _very_ fast. (just kidding!) :) > > I don't know about the RV's (yet) but in other aircraft I fly, I do lot of stalls in many configurations and can feel it easily to prevent inadvertent stalls. Didn't someone recently say that the RV-8's tail shakes 5 mph or so before stall? > > Many, if not most of the stall/spin accidents happen when someone i.e. turn base to final and add too much back pressure so they won't overshoot the extended centerline of the runway (too proud to make it look like they turned too late!). The increased G loading will increase the stall speed and a wing could drop - sometimes the high wing (ask me how I know), resulting in the deadly approach spin. I'm sure the AOA gauge will show this but only the instant you pull (since you're close to stall already) and when it's too late. The AOA gauge is only good if you look at it, right? Do you think a guy trying to line up with the runway after he misjudged a turn will look at the gauge? Wrong! LED's or not - take a last look at it... after all, it told you that you lost control of the aircraft... > I don't know about you but I currently at least a few times every 6 months simulate take-off power departure stalls and base to final stalls at ~5000ft. Many times, my intentional base to final stalls will result in an incipient spin but in Canada luckily, spin training is mandatory (or at least was when I got my ticket). Practice slow flight and accelerated stalls a lot and it might save your bacon some day. If you shy away from it, it might get you some day. > > I'm no expert but do know how to fly a plane. Please correct me if I'm totally wrong with any of the above. These discussions are (or at least should be) healthy since it may bring out thoughts or experiences that fosters a safer flying environment. > > Are > RV-8 Wings (I promise - no more rambling from me today!) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Are Barstad <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
You're right - the PSS system does have an aural warning as well. When I practice the base to final turn though, you wouldn't believe how fast it enters stll/spin when you pull since a) increased G loading increases stall speed, b) increased G loading decreases speed and c) increased bank doesn't help either. All these factors are working against eachother in a split second. But as you mentioned: for short fields and "S" turns on final etc., it would be a very good help to not have to go through all the calculations to see how slow you can go before you fall out of the sky. I had planned on buying the 'A' kit from PSS at OSH but thought I'd think about it some more after I saw the competition. Are > > From: barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> > Date: 2001/08/02 Thu PM 01:23:53 EDT > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > > Are, ref the 'look at gauges'.... The AOA I purchased from Van's has a > young lady 'on board', when you are about to lose it, she says, "push > the stick. push the stick." No looking at gauges. You might want to > look at the gauge on a 'short field' landing. > > Barry POte RV9a fuselage. > > Are Barstad wrote: > > > > > > I personally lean towards not having any AOA devices at all > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com>
Subject: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread)
Date: Aug 02, 2001
As a long-time computer-type geek, I wouldn't waste a lot of wonderment puzzling over the display refresh rate. For one thing there are a lot of tricks that can fix that, such as adding more MIPs with a faster processor, or some fairly small changes in the software refresh loops. What I'm concerned about is the accuracy and stability of the many digital-signal-processing algorithms that have to be running to create all those instruments, and the overall stability of their software in general. From user reports about the (I forget the name) WinCE-PDA-based system, it sounds like it crashes from time to time just like the Win98 on my desktop. That means that during a cross-country that's long enough to use up a tank of gas, you can expect to have to reboot it once or twice. Now, I don't know about you, but the thought of having to reboot my entire instrument panel every couple of hours does not make me feel very good. I just know it will happen on final when I've misjudged the weather and it's worse than I thought it would be. TSO'ed instruments with software inside them (like GPS's) are required to pass (with a bunch of documentation) a bunch of software tests (DO-178B, if my memory serves), that are designed to make sure it doesn't crash, and that it gets the right answers to display on its screen. When one one of these guys can show that they've tested their software that severely, then I'll be ready to throw out all the steam gauges and slap one of these guys in (or preferably two, so I have a backup). Then my biggest problem will be what to do with all that empty panel space. My wife has suggested a bud vase... > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernie Kerr [mailto:kerrjb(at)msn.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:43 AM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread) > > > > Weird , we are: thinking about PANEL AGAIN AND MY AIRPLANE > HAS BARELY BEEN > FLYING A YEAR!! > > Ken DeGraff of Sensenich props ( a practical sort of geek) > went over and > looked at the Dynon display for me and he talked about the > flicker. It was > not noticeable enough to bother me visually. Is there another > operational > concern that it is too slow to use as a flight instrument?? > > Bernie Kerr, 6A, S Fla > > ____________________________________ > " > > > > I saw them . > > > > I got yhe impression from them though that they are still a bit off. > > > > Did you notice the flicker? The refresh rate was seemingly > about 15 Hz at > > best. They *claim* that they can run at 24-30 Hz, but since > they did not > do > > it at the show, I was not convinced as of the moment. > > > > Now if they either tighten up the s/w for more speed or add a faster > > processor then I think it will be a nice device. Didn't > spend much time on > > the heat pitot/solid state gyro combo though as I was > trying to get them > to > > give me the strsight scoop on the flicker. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Wondering about the panel components ... AGAIN!! > ----------------------------------------------> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
--- Kevin Schlosser wrote: > > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? That should do fine unless you're on a coast and very humid. We get that way in central Texas and I've had my CH filter fill up in a day. Just check it often under those conditions. > > What about tool oiling? I don't recommend using an oiler. 1) The one I had was difficult to adjust and I never did get it to the point where I wasn't over-oiling. I don't use it any more. 2) You would have to segregate your air hoses between riveting and painting. So the oiler that you can't adjust right also costs you another air hose. Best to just use the routine of a couple of drops into the tool when you start working. FWIW Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John" <fasching(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: Navaid & Speaking of FAA Paperwork
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Cy Galley mentioned that I should contact EAA section on government issues for help in getting new operating limitations...I did that some time ago...they essentially said they understood about the personnel shortage in some FSDO's and that a DAR was probably my only recourse....they also added that they believed the FAA would never issue a single order putting all the thousands of homebuilts under the new operating limits (that pertain to 'major' modifications...a simplified system where you do not have to have FAA permission ((even if you could get it)) nor have to pay a DAR to do precisely what those being issued airworthiness certificates nowadays can do for nothing!) EAA said that the biggest obstacle was twofold: one, FAA bureaucracy, and two, objections from our insurance companies!! Thanks for the suggestion Cy, but it's been tried and didn't help. And I am a long-time EAA member. AOPA is too busy with the commercial aircraft industry to really care about RV types...so I am just stuck I guess. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John" <fasching(at)amigo.net>
Subject: Re: S-Tec autopilot ???
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I don't think you will find much price difference, but I got good service from Waukegan Avionics...incidentally the S-Tec Altitude Hold System 30 is marvelous...its really a great instrument and the kit is fully complete and fits the RV exactly. John at Salida, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: E Charts
http://www.echarts.cc --- Chuck Weyant wrote: > > > I can't find the URL for E Charts. Any help? > Chuck > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
In an accelerated mode the RV's tend to unhook pretty clean, (not much warning) It just happens so slow that people don't tend to get into trouble like they do in the plastic hotrods. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal dougr(at)petroblend.com www.petroblend.com/dougr > > > >The AOA gauge is only good if you look at it, right? > Snip . Does anyone know if the RV just sort of > chirps in an accelerated stall, or does it typically drop a wing? (I'm sure > a lot of this is dependant on attitude of flight, engine prop combo etc.) > Thanks, > > Mike Sices > RV8 QB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: LRI Specifics
One thing you have to understand is that while the PSS AOA is a unit that tells you your angle of attack, the LRI is a Lift Instrument. Inadvertently it does tell you AOA, but that is not it's intended function. It tells you LIFT. If you don't have lift, then yes, you stall, so that is where the AOA function is. Where the LRI would come in handy is density altitude take off situations to know when the wings are generating lift, and also it will help you fly slower approaches and more precisely. The other day I came in hot, and thought I was slow enough and had a bad bounce. Had I had the LRI, I could have seen that I was able to slow down more before I touched down. My inexperience in an RV had not had my seat of the pants feel that I was too fast. People mention that you need to keep your head outside the airplane. Well, how often do you land your airplane without looking at your airspeed indicator? I would imagine that you do an instrument scan and take a look at your airspeed to see if you need to slow down or carry more power to the runway. If instead you looked at your LRI on final, you could see EXACTLY how much lift your wings are generating and how close you are to being too slow. That to me is much more valuable than an airspeed indicator. As mentioned before, if you have any other factors on your airplane, that stall speed that you marked on your airspeed indicator is worthless. ==== Paul Besing RV-6A 197AB Arizona http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing First Flight 7/22/01 http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Steve Judd <sjudd(at)ffd2.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Hi Kevin, On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Kevin Schlosser wrote: > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? > > What about tool oiling? I see oiling manifolds for house air rigs. > I'm not sure if I want oil vapor injected into my air hoses if that's > what these things do. I'd assume anyone that uses those has a > separate hose for painting operations? I plumbed three lines into my system. Two are "wet" (oiled) and one is dry. With two wet lines, I and a helper can build simultaneously; the dry line is used for painting and air blowing. The setup is: one hose goes from compressor to water filter, which goes to a pressure regulator, which splits into three lines, two of which are oiled. I used a cheapie cambell hausfeld aluminum three-way splitter, and don't think too much of it (it leaks). Next time I will use brass fittings to split up the lines. I mounted all the hardware on a small board, and tacked that onto the wall. I also highly suggest getting a good quality trap and oiler at the Home Despot. The cheap little clear/bubble oilers are very cumbersome. Fittings and hoses are cheap, and I like this setup quite a lot. -Steve P.S. I get a surprising amount of water in the (deluxe campbell-hausfeld) water trap, and I live in New Mexico. P.P.S. You did get the lightweight hose kit from Cleaveland, right? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Are Barstad <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Excellent post Mike! What we do know is that an AOA indicator will not in any way make your plane unsafe - it can only make it safer when installed, calibrated and used properly. The cost of an AOA system regardless of you deciding to use it as a backup or use your ASI as backup is worth it if it only saves your life _once_ that time when you're looking at something not paying attention (heaven forbid) and you hear the voice saying "Angle, Push!". Personally I'll stick with PSS since I already prepared for it and since it's combined with an aural indicator. The others are probably just as good - only different flavours. Are RV-8 Wings > > From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> > Date: 2001/08/02 Thu PM 02:07:38 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > > Are, > > Unlike the airspeed indicator, the AOA device senses the same pressures that > your airfoil sees. The AOA then displays that angle of attack almost > instantly. Not only does it tell you when you've reached a critical angle > of attack, it also shows the trend on the display and warns you AS YOU > APPROACH that critical angle of attack. > > One of these days when our planes are complete, we'll be up at a safe > altitude and pull up to see how that newly built baby will climb. If we > pull up hard and wait for the airspeed indicator to get to the stall speed, > you will most certainly have already stalled and started your recovery well > before the ASI gets to stall speed. > > We all practice (or should practice) stalls in the departure and landing > configurations. We're set up for it, we're looking for it and we can feel > the controls as we get close to it. No problem. We correct our control > inputs and go about our business. None of the stories I've read about, > where pilots have stalled and died, happened while they were practicing > stalls. No, they were doing something else. Maybe they were flying along > at a slow speed to check out the neighborhood. Eyes outside, they see > something they like and turn to check it out. As you said, eyes outside, > flying the airplane. Maybe you get distracted at slow flight and turn to > look at something and inadvertently give that sensitive RV stick a little > tug more than you meant to (a certain John Denver story comes to mind). > > There are a bazillion scenarios that can hurt you and I don't think it has > anything to do with being a good pilot or not. Lots of good pilots have met > their maker in stall/spin accidents. A certain, very experienced, Glassair > pilot last week at OSH with a bunch of hours comes to mind also. > > Looking at the AOA indicator is no different than looking at the airspeed > indicator. We can fly with our heads outside the cockpit all day long but > we still look at the airspeed indicator when flying slow. Why do we do > that? Cause we don't want to fly to slow and stall. Why not look at an > instrument that gives you more information than an airspeed indicator? You > can still "fly with your head outside the cockpit". I can't speak for the > others, but the PSS AOA instrument gives an audible warning as you NEAR the > critical AOA. Get a little slow inadvertently and that cute little voice > wakes you from your day dream "Angle, Angle, Push". > > Many of us are installing heated pitot/static systems in the anticipation of > flying in the clouds or at night. Departing in IFR conditions regardless of > airport density altitude or aircraft weight, I can't think of anything > better than taking off, setting up a departure angle of attack and be on my > merry way. A quick crosscheck with the ASI might just remind you that you > forgot to turn on the pitot as the airspeed indicator winds down. > > Lots of planes have been flying lots of years without using an AOA devices. > They will continue to do so. Lots of planes have been flying lots of years > without GPS too, but having one sure makes getting lost harder to do. > > Flying by AOA sure makes inadvertent stalling less likely also. > > Thanks for the good discussion. > > Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com > Plainfield, IL > RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps > Stinson 108-2 N9666K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or comments from the list. In my planned installation fuel from both tanks goes direct to an Andair fuel tank selector valve. Fuel out of the selector valve goes to an Andair gascolator mounted in the left wing root (outside the cabin) and then back inside to my Facet aux pump mounted at 45 degrees on the inside of the left wing root (plans location) through a short compound half pretzel shaped piece of tubing. From there the system is conventional with a "T" for the priming solinoid and a fuel flow transducer ahead of the firewall. My reasoning is to have the large capacity filter in the Andair gascolator provide fuel filtering ahead of the aux pump, eliminating multiple fuel filters, and to locate the gascolator in a cool area and as low as possible in my tail dragger. My concern is whether the aux pump has enough suction to draw fuel through the unprimed gascolator, as would be the case if/when one has run a tank dry. I will really appreciate any comments or suggestions, especially from anyone who has experience with a similar installation. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: wings
--- Rudy Albachten wrote: > I hung the wings from the ceiling in the garage > this morning. For the first time in ~5 years > I can walk across the garage. Congratulations Rudy!!! I guess you and Laura have already popped the bubbly on this milestone? I find building a plane gives one a great chance to explore different Champagnes... There's one for the empennage, one for finishing the wings, one for flipping the fuse, one for putting the fuse on the gear, one for hanging the engine, one for getting it to the airport intact, one for first engine run, one for passing the inspection and another for first flight! I have copied the RV-list on your achievement. It may have taken 5 years to complete the wings, but the rest will be a cakewalk. :) Stop by any time. - Mike ==== Michael E. Thompson (Grobdriver(at)yahoo.com) Austin, TX, USA RV-6 in progress, N140RV (Reserved) EX-AX1 Sub Hunter, P-3 (B/B-TACMOD/C) Orion Aircrew, PP-G,ASEL, Motorglider Driver and Unlimited Air Race Nut! http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
--- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or > comments from the list. Harry, Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no shields. Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). I think both will work fine. Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Actually she says "Angle angle, push" and I'm not going to go there. Garry, Caspers Dad barry pote wrote: > > Are, ref the 'look at gauges'.... The AOA I purchased from Van's has a > young lady 'on board', when you are about to lose it, she says, "push > the stick. push the stick." No looking at gauges. You might want to > look at the gauge on a 'short field' landing. > > Barry POte RV9a fuselage. > > Are Barstad wrote: > > > > > > I personally lean towards not having any AOA devices at all > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 02, 2001
The leaky T fitting you have would probably be better if you wrapped the threads in pipe dope (teflon tape). Hmmm, lightweight hose? I'll have to check that out. I was looking in the photo archives on the www.vansaircraft.net site (immeasurable excellent value to us newbies) and saw a riveting contest between you RV 'celebrities' in someone's awesome shop. They had an overhead rig for supporting the air hose. I'm thinking of making up an overhead hinged arm to support the garage air hose and run a yellow coiled hose from the arm to the work with a swivel on the end and a quick connect. I'm thinking of using a couple T's off the compressor to go to either side of the garage. One to the bench, one to the overhead. Another run will go through the foundation into my basement shop. Last run will be for future expansion. Eric H. sent me a great idea for a water trapping scheme. Now I need to find a company that sells an auto water purge for the bottom of my air tank. I've decided that oiling will be done manually. I also need a quieter method of depressurizing the system at night. Scares my wife and probably annoys my neighbors. -=< PropellerHead >=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Judd Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor Hi Kevin, On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Kevin Schlosser wrote: > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? > > What about tool oiling? I see oiling manifolds for house air rigs. > I'm not sure if I want oil vapor injected into my air hoses if that's > what these things do. I'd assume anyone that uses those has a > separate hose for painting operations? I plumbed three lines into my system. Two are "wet" (oiled) and one is dry. With two wet lines, I and a helper can build simultaneously; the dry line is used for painting and air blowing. The setup is: one hose goes from compressor to water filter, which goes to a pressure regulator, which splits into three lines, two of which are oiled. I used a cheapie cambell hausfeld aluminum three-way splitter, and don't think too much of it (it leaks). Next time I will use brass fittings to split up the lines. I mounted all the hardware on a small board, and tacked that onto the wall. I also highly suggest getting a good quality trap and oiler at the Home Despot. The cheap little clear/bubble oilers are very cumbersome. Fittings and hoses are cheap, and I like this setup quite a lot. -Steve P.S. I get a surprising amount of water in the (deluxe campbell-hausfeld) water trap, and I live in New Mexico. P.P.S. You did get the lightweight hose kit from Cleaveland, right? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Harry, keep the rise (height above fuel level), distance that the pump has to pull and bends to a minimum. These pumps prefer to push liquids and obviously do suck, but are much less efficient when doing so. Garry, Caspers Dad HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or > comments from the list. > > In my planned installation fuel from both tanks goes direct to an Andair fuel > tank selector valve. Fuel out of the selector valve goes to an Andair > gascolator mounted in the left wing root (outside the cabin) and then back > inside to my Facet aux pump mounted at 45 degrees on the inside of the left > wing root (plans location) through a short compound half pretzel shaped piece > of tubing. From there the system is conventional with a "T" for the priming > solinoid and a fuel flow transducer ahead of the firewall. > > My reasoning is to have the large capacity filter in the Andair gascolator > provide fuel filtering ahead of the aux pump, eliminating multiple fuel > filters, and to locate the gascolator in a cool area and as low as possible > in my tail dragger. My concern is whether the aux pump has enough suction to > draw fuel through the unprimed gascolator, as would be the case if/when one > has run a tank dry. > > I will really appreciate any comments or suggestions, especially from anyone > who has experience with a similar installation. > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, finish kit stuff > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: "Owens, Laird" <Owens(at)aerovironment.com>
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Hi Harry, I did close to what your planning. L and R tanks to Andair fuel valve, but I went to the aux fuel pump mounted on the wing spar (boy is that thing loud) then out to the left wing root area, then up to the engine driven pump. 300 hours so far and everything works fine in my RV-6. I don't think I'd want the gascolator before of the aux fuel pump. I'd rather push the fuel into the gascolator, then try to draw it in. But then again I don't have any hard data to say it wouldn't work.... You asked for comments.....and you got what you paid for ;-) On a different subject, I had the most wonderful night flight yesterday. Just a quick hour flight cruising around north of the LA basin at 7500' after the sun went down. Nice and cool, the motor pulled back to 2300 rpm and 17", just loafing around. Over the coast you could see the low clouds coming in, but the lights of the Ventura were lighting up the underside of the clouds. Really pretty. But the coolest part was when the moon would reflect out on the wing highlighting the paint job. I caught myself thinking....."Man, that's pretty...and I built this thing, too cool". Keep pounding those rivets, it's SOOO worth it. Laird RV-6 SoCal From: rv-list(at)matronics.com on Thu, Aug 2, 2001 3:04 PM Subject: RV-List: Fuel System Plumbing Question All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or comments from the list. In my planned installation fuel from both tanks goes direct to an Andair fuel tank selector valve. Fuel out of the selector valve goes to an Andair gascolator mounted in the left wing root (outside the cabin) and then back inside to my Facet aux pump mounted at 45 degrees on the inside of the left wing root (plans location) through a short compound half pretzel shaped piece of tubing. From there the system is conventional with a "T" for the priming solinoid and a fuel flow transducer ahead of the firewall. My reasoning is to have the large capacity filter in the Andair gascolator provide fuel filtering ahead of the aux pump, eliminating multiple fuel filters, and to locate the gascolator in a cool area and as low as possible in my tail dragger. My concern is whether the aux pump has enough suction to draw fuel through the unprimed gascolator, as would be the case if/when one has run a tank dry. I will really appreciate any comments or suggestions, especially from anyone who has experience with a similar installation. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net>
Subject: AOA / LRI in ice
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Hi All; Something that nobody has mentioned, but that I am curious about. Each of these systems requires that you calibrate it to your specific airfoil by performing a series of manoeuvres in a test flight. Once done, these systems measure the aoa/lift of that specific airfoil shape. Now when you encounter severe enough ice to approach a stall, the wing will have accumulated enough ice to change shape and will not be the same airfoil that your system is calibrated for. Does this sound reasonable? With that said I would like to add that I do own the PSS AOA sport model, to be installed in my RV-9, and I do believe them to be an extremely valuable tool.* S. Todd Bartrim 13B RV-9 CF-STB (reserved) Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the pump. Garry, Caspers Dad Mike Thompson wrote: > > --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system > > > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or > > comments from the list. > > > Harry, > > Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to > the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really > expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not > using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. > > I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a > bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel > connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the > components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no > shields. > > Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside > up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. > > Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, > which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). > > I think both will work fine. > > Mike Thompson > Austin, TX > -6 N140RV (Reserved) > Firewall Forward > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I've just finished the airframe of the RV-6 and used a 5hp, three-cylinder, 60 gallon vertical tank rig situated in the unheated portion of the garage. Then, by silver soldered 3/4" copper pipe, I fed the air through the false wall and into the heated shop at the back of the garage. The compressor people told me about this arrangement which involves compressing cool air then running it into a heated space which reduces the relative humidity in it. It seemed to work and water was not a problem during any painting sessions. The local farm supply place( www.princessauto.com) sells automatic tank moisture drains that open at around 8-12psi. I also bought their 1-into-3 splitter for running more than one tool without changing hoses. All the air tools have "whips" on them(3'air lines) and I use an inline oiler at the connection between the main hose and the whip. This way, the main hose never has oil in it and can be hooked up directly to the HVLP gun. I tried one of the cheap, clear plastic oilers but it didn't last a day at 100+psi. Took it back to the industrial supply and bought a larger, heavier unit made out of black-anodized aluminum and brass-hasn't leaked a drop or blown a bubble in five years. Have to be careful not to bang it against the sheet metal though... Scott Jackson Vancouver, B.C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Schlosser <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? > > What about tool oiling? I see oiling manifolds for house air rigs. > I'm not sure if I want oil vapor injected into my air hoses if that's > what these things do. I'd assume anyone that uses those has a > separate hose for painting operations? > > This is my first attempt at using air powered tools, so I'd like to > do things properly. > > As for the die grinder, I wonder if connecting the 11 gallon tank > inline with the compressor's tank would help? > > Kevin > -=-=- > Looking forward to smashing rivets! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric.J.Henson(at)chase.com > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:37 AM > To: kevinschlosser(at)msn.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > > Kevin, no problem, thats overkill. The only real test for it will be your > die grinder, just be sure you protect your air tools from water coming > through the hose. The other test will be if you want to paint your plane > yourself using that compressor. Other than that no problem. > > Eric > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternator problems
Listers, For the archive, I'd like to add my name to those who have had problems with Van's 35A alternator. When I had this problem, I checked the archives & found a number of people reporting failure around 200 hrs. A couple of weeks ago, in the middle of a flight, my EIS-4000 flashed its Big Red Light at me to indicate low voltage. I was able to reduce the load & restore the voltage to its usual charging level. I later determined that the alternator output was down to about 12 amps. In discussion with a few people, I learned that these alternators probably have three pairs of diodes. I suspect that one pair went some time ago, bringing the output to 24 amps, which I wouldn't even have noticed since the EIS-4000 does not include any current monitoring. Then when another pair went, that dropped it down to 12 amps. Of course maybe someone will tell me that alternators don't work this way at all! It has been hot in Wisconsin recently, probably 90 degrees the day I saw the failure. I did have a blast tube installed, taking air from the right cowl inlet to the back of the alternator. I'm not too upset about the failure, since it lasted nearly 250 hrs & was a cheap & easy option for my initial installation. Also I'm happy it didn't fail completely & it didn't cause any diversions in flight. At Oshkosh I purchased the 40 amp alternator from B&C. It's a very nicely built unit, lighter than Van's, but of course quite a bit more expensive. I had to extend the mounting arm slot 3/8" so that I could use the existing Gates 7355 belt rather than the longer 7365 that was supplied. For the moment, I'm continuing to use Van's adjustable regulator & Bob Nuckolls' OV protection unit. The new installation works perfectly. Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Folding Bikes in a 6A
Listers, There's been some recent discussion on Doug Reeve's World Wide Wing web site about folding bikes. I wanted to let you know what worked for me. In travelling with the RV, we've found several locations where bikes are ideal. Places where a courtesy car is not available & a taxi isn't the right answer for touring around. I started looking for the right bikes about six months ago. Three weeks ago we received the two Dahon Helios bikes with carrying bags. These have 20" wheels, which are a significant improvement over the 16" wheels of the smaller folders. They have 7 speeds, primarily aluminum frames, & weigh 23.8 lbs each. They fold & unfold in about 30 seconds. http://www.dahon.com/helios-us.htm When I originally checked out the folded dimensions given, it looked like we couldn't fit two in the 6A, but I assumed that the folded packages were not truly rectangular & that the two could be nested together somehow! Well, they do fit in. I have the sliding canopy, & I have to fold the seat backs forward to load them, but it works. We bought the bikes & bags from Aircraft Spruce, because they had a significantly better price than anyone else that I could find. They weren't in the regular catalog that I had, but I found them in their on-line ordering system: 13-00789 DAHON HELIOS (7-SPEED) $387.950 13-08360 DAHON CARRY BAG 20 BLACK $49.800 Note that this is a special order from Spruce & that they said we could not return them. The weekend before Oshkosh, we loaded the bikes & camping gear for a two night trip to Washington Island, WI, for the fly-in/fish-boil. On checking all the weights I found we had a 12 lb allowance for clothes to stay within my 100 lb baggage limit - good thing I have the Titanium tie-downs (and a 130 lb wife)! The bikes seem to be well made & are easy & fun to ride. A couple of friends, with a Cherokee, tried them out & will probably order a pair. I've put some photos of the bike on my web site: http://www.rv.supermatrix.com/flying/misc/bikes.html Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: efortner <efortner(at)vnet.net>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
It will serve you well Kevin Schlosser wrote: > > I was hoping to verify with you folks that my new air > compressor will do the trick when it comes to building > my RV soon. > > I actually bought it for something else, but RV's (as > always) were in the back of my mind. > > The Old Compressor > ============== > I'm standing there on my deck with a new HVLP gun > trying to spray semi-transparent stain with the worlds > oldest air compressor. It was my father's before he > went out and bought a sears compressor. It's a single > cylinder oil-less with a washing machine motor pulley > v-belt drive, mounted on a big oval LEAD plate. Geez > it was heavy. > > It was getting hot after 1 hour of running continuous > with a modified Grizzly Machinery 11 gallon tank and > regulator. I had to stop at the end of every other > pass with the gun to build up air reserves. At that > rate, it would take me 2 weeks to do the deck. > > That's it, I need a new compressor! > > The New Compressor > =============== > My wife and I went to Home Depot and Lowes to see > what they had and how much it cost. No time for > mail order, it's this or nothing. I tried to order a 65 > gallon by 11hp upright model and they were out. The > wife grinned since she thought I was going overkill again. > The other choice was the Porter Cable 7 Hp by 25 Gal > horizontal Cast iron dual piston oiled model. We shoved > it in the one hour rental truck and took it home. We > finished the deck that weekend. > > The best quote heard from my wife, who up until recently > had problems with the idea of me building a plane... "Will > you be able to use that on your airplane???" > > I nearly fell over. I guess she realizes I'm going to build > this thing approval or not. Cool. > > So, 7 HP x 25 Gal Oiled, Will that do it? > > Kevin Schlosser > -=< PropellerHead >=- > Waiting for April to buy RV-7 Tail Kit > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: AOA / LRI in ice
> > Hi All; > Something that nobody has mentioned, but that I am curious about. >Each of these systems requires that you calibrate it to your specific >airfoil by performing a series of manoeuvres in a test flight. Once done, >these systems measure the aoa/lift of that specific airfoil shape. Now when >you encounter severe enough ice to approach a stall, the wing will have >accumulated enough ice to change shape and will not be the same airfoil that >your system is calibrated for. > Does this sound reasonable? >With that said I would like to add that I do own the PSS AOA sport model, to >be installed in my RV-9, and I do believe them to be an extremely valuable >tool.* > >S. Todd Bartrim You are 100% right. Add some ice and the AOA indicator is now pretty much useless. But, you'll likely collect ice in cruise, at a speed well above the stall speed, so you shouldn't stall it then. Hopefully you can remember to add a few knots on approach if you still have ice on the aircraft. If you are collecting ice on the wing. you should be changing altitudes right now, even if you have to declare an emergency to do it. Thinner airfoils collect ice much faster than thick ones. So, if you are seeing ice start to collect on the wings you probably already have a lot of ice on the prop, and some ice on the HS and VS. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Lycoming Engine Information
Date: Aug 02, 2001
You can go to... http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/ad/ad_e.htm It is a Canadian site but has all the ADs. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Tanner" <gtanner(at)bendcable.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: RV-List: Lycoming Engine Information Hi Mike, My O-320 D1A is a 1993 model first run and I've been trying to find any AD's that are applicable to it with no luck. Because of the manufacture date, I don't think the piston pin AD is a factor, it has Lycoming cylinders, not Superior, the sintered metal oil pump shouldn't be a factor. The rest of the AD's I can find are for earlier engines. Am I missing anything? Do you have any suggestions for finding out for sure? (My local FBO is less than willing to help--doesn't like helping experimental builders) Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
> >Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the >pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a >number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small >bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their >spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the >pump. >Garry, Caspers Dad > Garry, Just wondering - can the Facet pumps shed debris into the fuel when they fail? Could that debris cause grief in your carburetor? If so, maybe it is better to have the gascolator after the pump than before it. They engine will run a lot better with a failed electric pump than it will with a mucked up carburetor. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Panther Electronics
Date: Aug 02, 2001
St Cloud? You're kidding. I grew up there..it's about 30 minutes from me and I could go check Panther out for you if you'd like. Bill -4 Orlando ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bronson" <IMAV8N(at)compuserve.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: RV-List: Panther Electronics > > Hi Folks, especially Floridians, > > Have any of you ever heard of or dealt with Panther Electronics of St. > Cloud, FL? I checked the archives and found no posts, and they are not > listed in the Yeller Pages. They make a headset whose mirophone is > embedded in an earpiece, eliminating a traditional boom mike. Looks > interesting, though it's a bit pricey. Their web site is > www.pantherelectronics.com. They feature a guy who uses this headset in a > Long EZ (yeah, I know) on their site. Anyone know anything about them? I > have e-mailed them and not received any replies. > > Thanks, > > Tim > Pittsburgh > Future builder > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Matthew Gelber <mgelber(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
This is specific to the airflow performance fuel pumps with injected engines. If you have any question you should call Vans and airflow performance to verify. If you are using an airflow performance fuel filter, they told me to install it before the fuel pump, as shown in Vans diagram (at least for the RV-8). BUT! If you are using their fuel pump with the andair gascolator, they told me to install the gascolator AFTER the fuel pump. Reason being the filter area is smaller and its easier to "push" fuel through it than "pull" fuel through it. Matthew 8A canopy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel System Plumbing Question > >Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the >pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a >number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small >bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their >spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the >pump. >Garry, Caspers Dad > Garry, Just wondering - can the Facet pumps shed debris into the fuel when they fail? Could that debris cause grief in your carburetor? If so, maybe it is better to have the gascolator after the pump than before it. They engine will run a lot better with a failed electric pump than it will with a mucked up carburetor. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
It appears to be time for the annual LRI discussion. We hit this topic in Nov 98, Oct 99, Mar 00, and now Aug 01. It's an interesting topic. I've found having an audible stall warning system to be invaluable. On a couple of occasions I've allowed my attention to wander from airspeed, got slow while down low (circling at the direction of the tower, while looking for traffic), and had the stall warning activate. I think it can be a life saver in "low and slow" situations. The Piper style stall tab warns of stall based on air flow change that occurs before the wing stalls. True AoA systems (Rite Angle, PSS, others), if equipped with an audible device, can sound warning of a stall based on the fact that a given wing stalls at the same AoA, regardless of airspeed. These are well understood principles. The situation isn't so clear with the LRI. Way back on 28 Nov 98 Peter Bennett posted a well thought out mathematical analysis (available in the archives, search for "pbennett & LRI") that questions whether the LRI gives the same stall warning in all weight and G loading conditions. Peter's analysis is straight forward, and convinced me that the LRI web site's claims of "Reliable under all conditions of weight... flap position... angle of bank" are suspect. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has published rigorous flight test data to support the LRI claims. One acquaintance of mine "rolled his own" LRI type device (based on the drawings and info in the LRI patent) and reported that at high G loads the unit gave an inappropriately high indication of "lift reserve" when the aircraft stalled. That data (not from a commercially produced LRI unit) seems to support Peter's 1998 analysis. I'd sure like to see some actual flight test data showing LRI indication vs stall speed across a broad range of aircraft weights and G loading. By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. Tim Lewis Just returned from OSH, with 260 hours on RV-6A N47TD ****** Tim Lewis -- Fairfax, VA RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99 http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a ****** ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Why depressurize? I have a cutoff at the tank that I close when not it use. The line will eventually leak down to a neutral pressure after several hours. The 60 gal tank stays pressurized at ~130#. Is this bad form? I also have a valve at the bottom that I crack open for a couple seconds once a week or so to drain the couple teaspoons of condensation. Larry Bowen Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com Web: http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- [snip] > I also need a quieter method of depressurizing the system at night. > Scares my wife and probably annoys my neighbors. > > -=< PropellerHead >=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator problems
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Chris, This is good information. I have Van's alternator too, but not flying yet. I have been so paranoid about alternators that I have installed the Loadmeter instrument from B&C that monitors and gives constant readings on the alternator output and also the battery's condition. I have installed the essential bus that bypasses the alternator in emergency situations. Your alternator problem would have been easily indicated on the Loadmeter. Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6 ...wrestling oil cooler ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: RV-List: Alternator problems > > Listers, > > For the archive, I'd like to add my name to those who have had problems > with Van's 35A alternator. When I had this problem, I checked the archives > & found a number of people reporting failure around 200 hrs. > > A couple of weeks ago, in the middle of a flight, my EIS-4000 flashed its > Big Red Light at me to indicate low voltage. I was able to reduce the load > & restore the voltage to its usual charging level. I later determined that > the alternator output was down to about 12 amps. In discussion with a few > people, I learned that these alternators probably have three pairs of > diodes. I suspect that one pair went some time ago, bringing the output to > 24 amps, which I wouldn't even have noticed since the EIS-4000 does not > include any current monitoring. Then when another pair went, that dropped > it down to 12 amps. Of course maybe someone will tell me that alternators > don't work this way at all! > > It has been hot in Wisconsin recently, probably 90 degrees the day I saw > the failure. I did have a blast tube installed, taking air from the right > cowl inlet to the back of the alternator. > > I'm not too upset about the failure, since it lasted nearly 250 hrs & was a > cheap & easy option for my initial installation. Also I'm happy it didn't > fail completely & it didn't cause any diversions in flight. > > At Oshkosh I purchased the 40 amp alternator from B&C. It's a very nicely > built unit, lighter than Van's, but of course quite a bit more > expensive. I had to extend the mounting arm slot 3/8" so that I could use > the existing Gates 7355 belt rather than the longer 7365 that was > supplied. For the moment, I'm continuing to use Van's adjustable regulator > & Bob Nuckolls' OV protection unit. The new installation works perfectly. > Regards, > > Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com > West Bend, WI > RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Is bigger better? I'm looking at the Niagra cooler. Is a 7row or 9 row the correct cooler size for the O360A1A? Dave Ford RV6 finishing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 02, 2001
For those who looked at the Dynon EFIS-D10 at OSH, did you notice how the AOA worked on it? Did it have a probe like the LRI or a pin-hole like the PSS? Any guess how it would compare to the LRI and PSS functionally? Does it talk or flash at you? Larry Bowen Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com Web: http://BowenAero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
--- Garry LeGare wrote: > <"versadek"@earthlink.net> > > Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to > the pump is a mistake. No offence.. actually not a bad idea - costs little and what can it hurt? Although just as I hit the send button to Harry's note this afternoon, it occurred to me that my system is no different from what Van's recommends, just the components are in the wing root as opposed to his pump in the cabin and gascolator on the firewall. No in-line filter in the plans. Curiouser and curiouser... Still something to look into. Thanks. Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
rv-list
Subject: Oops rivets
Hmm, went to try and order some more oops rivets from Van's, the NAS1097AD3-3.5 and cohorts. They are not on their website anymore. They still seem to have the NAS1097AD4-X.X series tried Aircraft Spruce, no luck either. Avery seems to be out of the rivet business also. Wicks search engine came up blank. I got some left but would like to refill the bin so to say. Anybody know a place to buy NAS1097AD3 rivets in quanteties less than 1 lbs ?? Thanks Gert -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross A. Scroggs" <rscroggs(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Oops rivets
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I just received 1/4lb of the NAS1097AD3-3.5 rivets from Vans, last week. On the web page that shows the rivets are instructions on how to order in a smaller quantity than 1 LB. It did work. Ross Scroggs Conyers, Ga. RV4, Emp. ----- Original Message ----- From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:21 PM Subject: RV-List: Oops rivets > > Hmm, went to try and order some more oops rivets from Van's, the > NAS1097AD3-3.5 and cohorts. They are not on their website anymore. > They still seem to have the NAS1097AD4-X.X series > > tried Aircraft Spruce, no luck either. Avery seems to be out of the > rivet business also. Wicks search engine came up blank. > > I got some left but would like to refill the bin so to say. > > > Anybody know a place to buy NAS1097AD3 rivets in quanteties less than 1 > lbs ?? > > Thanks > > Gert > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Subaru Engines - Rotary Engine
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Subject: RV-List: Subaru Engines > > With all due respect to those considering Sub engines, are you not persuing > "false economy". I'll preface this thought with the following comment. I > DO believe that ..... BIG SNIP > If I were 65 yrs old and considered my RV to be the last plane I'd own, I'd > probably build it with a Sub or a Mazda rotary. > > Electronic Ignition > Fuel Injection > Liquid Cooling > Cheap parts > Subaru Reliability (12" long crank with 5 bearings = bulletproof) > > Or .. If I intended to fly the plane 4000 hours during the time I owned it, > I might use a converted auto engine. In that case, the lower maintenance > costs might outweigh the poorer resale. > > But as it is, my plane is the second largest investment I have ever made in > my life, and its resale value is not inconsequential. One of the > justifications I have made to myself is that if I ever needed to sell my RV, > I could get out of it what I put into it. Although that is really a fantasy > when you consider ongoing costs, it is closer to reality when the plane has > a standard engine. > > Best regards, > > Don Mei > RV-4 N92CT > 3B9 - Chester, CT Don, Many of your points are well taken. I personally believe the Subaru is one of the better auto engines for a conversion - for aircraft requiring 100-140HP. Running the higher rpm required for Higher HP from one is pushing it - in my opinion. I fly a Mazda Rotary Powered Rv-6A with Electronic Ignition, Fuel Injection, Liquid Cooling , with - Oh so cheap parts (compared to a Lycoming), and extraordinary reliability and robustness. The rotary loafs at 5500-6000 rpm and can fly all day at that rpm (and considerably higher). Magnitude of inertial loads are much lower (i.e. no pistons yanking back and forth on a connecting rod) also, no high stress parts such as camshafts, valves, valve springs, push rods, rocker arms, connecting rods, rod bolts, etc. etc. to break. While I think the Subaru is a good engine for 120-140HP, I think a rotary is a better engine for 150-200 HP requirements. Yes, you can get three rotor engins putting out 250-300HP and turbo charged 2 rotors for 200-250HP. But, most conversions are currently flying without turbos, cheaper, less complicated and lighter, but the turbo versions are beginning to show up. We all want more POWER!{:>) However, I do agree - that the resale value would undoubtedly be lower than with a certified engine (well, for one reason a zero time rotary engine can be had for $3600 or less if you rebuild it yourself - so cheaper to install). So if you plan on reselling it and getting maximum value then probably better to install a Lycoming. On the other hand, I am 61 and do not plan on selling my baby {:>) - too much fun to fly and very smooth behind the rotary. There is now a firewall forward Rotary kit from PowerSport which is very nicely engineered and tested. But, most rotary's flying (10 in RVs so far) are homebrewed. Best Regards Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Harry, You might want to double check the instructions for the installation of your fuel flow meter. Mine said to install the transducer AFTER the mechanical pump. Dave HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: From there the system is conventional with a "T" for the priming solinoid and a fuel flow transducer ahead of the firewall. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of FAA paperwork
Date: Aug 02, 2001
It is certainly clear that responses from FSDOs on the new "Major Modification" option is varied. Our local FSDO (Charlotte, Douglas International, NC) was very helpful, told me what paper work I needed to fill out, pointed to the pubs on how to fill them out. Told me about their schedule (a pending out of state school) and offered to come out before going off to the school and inspect the aircraft and approve the amendment to my operating limitations. I guess whether they inspect or not is up to the local FSDO, but my guy just wanted to baseline the aircraft before issuing the mod. Did not cost me a penny. Now I am legal to do major mods provided I adhere to the new instructions for testing and document such. I've even formally notified my insurance company in writing with a copy of the new operating limitation and no squawk from them. Actually, don't know what they could do other than cancel my coverage as I am fully in compliance with the FAA requirements. I had to get a DAR when I finished the aircraft (Washington DC area FSDO), the guys there were willing but their schedule simply pushed it too far out into the future, so I went with a DAR. So I have had good fortunate from both FSDO and DAR. Just wanted to give the Feds a pat on the back where deserved - as they very frequently get the boot a bit lower {:>) Best Regards Ed Anderson Matthews, NC RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: doyal plute <dplute(at)onemain.com>
Subject: Primer lines
I am fabricating the primer system on my 0-360 engine and I am trying to find AN xxxx-01 copper tubing to connect to the AN4022-1 discharge nipples ( this tubing is soldered into the AN800-2 union cone) Does anyone know of a source for this? (need about 6 ft.) Sincerely: Doyal ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Folding Bikes in a 6A
Date: Aug 02, 2001
Thread-Topic: RV-List: Folding Bikes in a 6A Thread-Index: AcEbtx+c42121IenEdWAOQAIxwleHwAElVvw
From: "Reeves, Doug" <Douglas.Reeves(at)archongroup.com>
Great post, Chris (and nice photo of them in your plane). I've talked with the folks at www.bikefriday.com (one of Dahon's competitors) about a month ago and they told me they are currently working on an 'airplane version' of one of their models that is projected to have a total weight of 19 lbs (don't remember the gear/tire dimensions, sorry). I'll probably be evaluating one of the early prototypes and will more than likely end up ordering two of them. Having said that.....I think it's great that the folding bikes are getting more popular (I've even seen pics of one person who got (2) folding bikes in a RV-8). I hope we get to meet someday at a fly-in so we can compair each other's bikes. I moved the pictures of the bike I was testing to http://www.archongroup.com/reeves/foldingbike.htm if anyone hasn't seen them (this model weighed in at 27 lbs I think). When I hear something I'll let you know. Best, Doug Reeves http://www.vansaircraft.net Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing -----Original Message----- From: Chris Good [mailto:chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: RV-List: Folding Bikes in a 6A Listers, There's been some recent discussion on Doug Reeve's World Wide Wing web site about folding bikes. I wanted to let you know what worked for me. In travelling with the RV, we've found several locations where bikes are ideal. Places where a courtesy car is not available & a taxi isn't the right answer for touring around. I started looking for the right bikes about six months ago. Three weeks ago we received the two Dahon Helios bikes with carrying bags. These have 20" wheels, which are a significant improvement over the 16" wheels of the smaller folders. They have 7 speeds, primarily aluminum frames, & weigh 23.8 lbs each. They fold & unfold in about 30 seconds. http://www.dahon.com/helios-us.htm When I originally checked out the folded dimensions given, it looked like we couldn't fit two in the 6A, but I assumed that the folded packages were not truly rectangular & that the two could be nested together somehow! Well, they do fit in. I have the sliding canopy, & I have to fold the seat backs forward to load them, but it works. We bought the bikes & bags from Aircraft Spruce, because they had a significantly better price than anyone else that I could find. They weren't in the regular catalog that I had, but I found them in their on-line ordering system: 13-00789 DAHON HELIOS (7-SPEED) $387.950 13-08360 DAHON CARRY BAG 20 BLACK $49.800 Note that this is a special order from Spruce & that they said we could not return them. The weekend before Oshkosh, we loaded the bikes & camping gear for a two night trip to Washington Island, WI, for the fly-in/fish-boil. On checking all the weights I found we had a 12 lb allowance for clothes to stay within my 100 lb baggage limit - good thing I have the Titanium tie-downs (and a 130 lb wife)! The bikes seem to be well made & are easy & fun to ride. A couple of friends, with a Cherokee, tried them out & will probably order a pair. I've put some photos of the bike on my web site: http://www.rv.supermatrix.com/flying/misc/bikes.html Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 03, 2001
> >Is bigger better? I'm looking at the Niagra cooler. Is a 7row or 9 row >the correct cooler size for the O360A1A? > >Dave Ford >RV6 finishing In my opinion, YES, install the larger one IF you can make it fit. During the heat of summer, here in the southwestern Rockies, that thin, hot air does very little to strip heat from an oil cooler, so the more surface area you can expose that steamin' oil to, the better. Your results may vary of course, as all airplane/engine/oil cooler installations behave differently. I'm doing OK with a seven row, behind cylinder #4, and a cool collar heat sink on the oil filter. I seldom go over 210 now, and the temp goes up slower now with the cool collar. It gives me more time on those climbouts from a high altitude airport after a quick fuel stop. Once I get the machine up to 9 or 10 thousand feet and push the nose over to get some airspeed, it comes back to 180-190 within a few minutes. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD O-360/Sensenich 72FM-83" 240 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Primer lines
> >I am fabricating the primer system on my 0-360 engine and I am trying to >find AN >xxxx-01 copper tubing to connect to the AN4022-1 discharge nipples ( >this tubing is soldered into the AN800-2 union cone) >Does anyone know of a source for this? (need about 6 ft.) >Sincerely: >Doyal Doyal, Van's has it in their on-line catalog in the hardware section: CT0-125OD Soft Copper 1/8" $0.50 per ft. Aircraft Spruce also: 03-40900 COPPER TUBING 1/8 X .030 $1.250/ft (10 ft minumum) Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Osh trip
Listers, We just returned from flying our 6 to Osh then to Ohio and back to California. The trip was great but I have a couple of observations that might be of interest to the group. First, we lost a mag on takeoff from Goodland KS. It was kind of a non event since the FBO had the parts to fix my Bendix mag. I'm using the "shower of sparks" mags that came with my used 0-360-A1D and have always said that when one of them went belly up I'd replace it with an electronic ignition. Well, now I'm re-thinking that idea because if it had been an electronic ignition that quit in Goodland I'd probably still be sitting there waiting for a new one since they wouldn't have been able to fix it. As it was, we only had a few hours delay and made it to Osh on time. The other thing that I discovered is that many of the AWOS's across the country are now on NAV frequency's. This works out just fine for those of us that have NAV radios but a lot of folks these days are installing COM only radios and using GPS for navigation and that means that you won't be able to listen to the AWOS at some airports. All in all the flight was fantastic! There was rotten weather all across the country but it just kind of opened up ahead of us for the entire flight. I also had a failure of my "Van's" alternator but it started working again. What a GREAT airplane! Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: "Owens, Laird" <Owens(at)aerovironment.com>
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Hey Garry, Of those failed pumps that you have inspected, how many have a failure mode where they wouldn't flow fuel once they died? If it doesn't fail closed then I'd say it's ok if you fail one once in a while, as it is a secondary pump. You'd have to loose both pumps before the things get real quite. If it could fail closed, then you have the classic single point failure. But then again, I've heard that the mechanical pump can fail in such a manor as to restrict flow. How many of us run a parallel line to bypass the mechanical pump in case of failure? Not many, I'd guess. Of course I'm just rationalizing here because I don't have a filter before the aux pump. Laird See you Saturday to inspect Casper. Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the pump. Garry, Caspers Dad Mike Thompson wrote: > > --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system > > > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or > > comments from the list. > > > Harry, > > Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to > the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really > expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not > using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. > > I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a > bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel > connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the > components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no > shields. > > Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside > up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. > > Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, > which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). > > I think both will work fine. > > Mike Thompson > Austin, TX > -6 N140RV (Reserved) > Firewall Forward > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com>
Subject: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread)
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Regarding the speed of the Dynon unit (and others like it) ... I am of the view that major s/w "apps" start out running slowly (untuned algorithms, debugging code, bloated code, etc) and then gets faster (tune-ups, tighter code etc and then gets slower again (feature creep for the platform etc.). Take a look at the delay on the button press acknowledgement on the UPSAT MX-20. They have added features and I think are coming up to a point where a faster CPU would REALLY help. Soooo.... Yes, I would be a bit concerned if the starting system does not get rid of its slowness (to me) because I think there is a future phase wherein it would be slower. Now if someone has not started their RV panel yet, I suspect that they would have the luxury of waiting and seeing what "release 2 " looks like. James .... just an opinion p.s. I do think the unit has LOTS of potential though!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bernie Kerr Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread) Weird , we are: thinking about PANEL AGAIN AND MY AIRPLANE HAS BARELY BEEN FLYING A YEAR!! Ken DeGraff of Sensenich props ( a practical sort of geek) went over and looked at the Dynon display for me and he talked about the flicker. It was not noticeable enough to bother me visually. Is there another operational concern that it is too slow to use as a flight instrument?? Bernie Kerr, 6A, S Fla ____________________________________ " > > I saw them . > > I got yhe impression from them though that they are still a bit off. > > Did you notice the flicker? The refresh rate was seemingly about 15 Hz at > best. They *claim* that they can run at 24-30 Hz, but since they did not do > it at the show, I was not convinced as of the moment. > > Now if they either tighten up the s/w for more speed or add a faster > processor then I think it will be a nice device. Didn't spend much time on > the heat pitot/solid state gyro combo though as I was trying to get them to > give me the strsight scoop on the flicker. --------------------------------------------------- > Wondering about the panel components ... AGAIN!! ----------------------------------------------> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Kevin, The plastic parts inside the square Facet pump ( check valves & seats) where changed about 15 years ago, after a rash of Eze's had problems running auto fuel. I believe (don't know for sure) the new parts are Nylon and there have been no issues with the valves or seats, since the change. The only other parts in the pump that might be of concern, are the two check valve springs, check valve retainers, brass piston wear sleeve and the piston itself . None of these parts have a history of failure, and in analyzing these parts, gauling of the sleeve and piston (caused by running dry for long periods), is really the only potential mechanical problems. Electrical component failures, especially the switching transistor are more of a problem. The older version of this pump had an externally mounted transistor, and they seemed to have a higher failure rate then the new style internal transistor pump. I personally have had two of the old style and one of the new design pumps stop because of transistor failure. I believe however, contaminated fuel is more of a problem. A piece of building debris, that could easily pass through the slots, that we cut in the fuel pickup tubes, could become jammed between the piston and it's wear sleeve, or it could become lodged between a check valve and its seat, and stop the pumping action. I have inspected many of these pumps ( because they had stopped pumping) and found the check valves fouled with bits of metal, plastic, fiberglass strands, tiny rocks (sand) and rust flakes. I know there are a lot of RV Series aircraft flying without a filter in front of the pump. But the primary pump on most, is engine driven. The Facet is only used on start up, take off, landing and switching tanks, so it's not critical, or is it? Garry, Caspers Dad Kevin Horton wrote: > -- > > Garry, > > Just wondering - can the Facet pumps shed debris into the fuel when > they fail? Could that debris cause grief in your carburetor? If so, > maybe it is better to have the gascolator after the pump than before > it. They engine will run a lot better with a failed electric pump > than it will with a mucked up carburetor. > > Take care, > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > Ottawa, Canada > http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Woodruff" <woodruff@dsl-only.net>
Subject: Oops rivets
Date: Aug 02, 2001
I just ordered a bunch of NAS1097AD4-X.X rivets this morning from Van's. My understanding is that the bodies of these fill an AD4 sized hole but have the head like a AD3. Is this correct? Or should I have ordered NAS1097AD3 rivets to have an AD3 head? Brian Woodruff Hillsboro, OR RV9A Emp ready to rivet! I just received 1/4lb of the NAS1097AD3-3.5 rivets from Vans, last week. On the web page that shows the rivets are instructions on how to order in a smaller quantity than 1 LB. It did work. Ross Scroggs Conyers, Ga. RV4, Emp. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Mike, glad I didn't offend you. You see I have shares in the company that makes the fuel filters and I'm just trying to pay for Casper's addiction to 100 LL. No in line filter in the plans you say. Can't be, Van's plans with something missing, please say it aint so. Garry Mike Thompson wrote: > > --- Garry LeGare wrote: > > <"versadek"@earthlink.net> > > > > Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to > > the pump is a mistake. > > No offence.. actually not a bad idea - costs little and what can it > hurt? > Although just as I hit the send button to Harry's note this afternoon, > it occurred to me that my system is no different from what Van's > recommends, just the components are in the wing root as opposed to his > pump in the cabin and gascolator on the firewall. > > No in-line filter in the plans. Curiouser and curiouser... > Still something to look into. > > Thanks. > > Mike Thompson > Austin, TX > -6 N140RV (Reserved) > Firewall Forward > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
TWO, I used BIG letters because they were important ones. Let me put it this way, THE ENGINE STOPPED. And yes I agree with you, for true redundancy a parallel system would be ideal. If the engine is running at say cruise RPM, there is a good chance that the engine pump will pull most stuff through the Facet pump and then it can plug the engine driven pump or the screen in the carb. Darn, the more I think of it the more I think I'll put in a inline filter before the Facet pump that way it will protect the engine pump and the carb. OH, I already did, didn't I. Garry, Caspers Dad, Just try to make a few bucks selling fuel filters. "Owens, Laird" wrote: > > Hey Garry, > > Of those failed pumps that you have inspected, how many have a failure mode where they wouldn't flow fuel once they died? > > If it doesn't fail closed then I'd say it's ok if you fail one once in a while, as it is a secondary pump. You'd have to loose both pumps before the things get real quite. If it could fail closed, then you have the classic single point failure. But then again, I've heard that the mechanical pump can fail in such a manor as to restrict flow. How many of us run a parallel line to bypass the mechanical pump in case of failure? Not many, I'd guess. > > Of course I'm just rationalizing here because I don't have a filter before the aux pump. > > Laird > See you Saturday to inspect Casper. > > > Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the > pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a > number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small > bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their > spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the > pump. > Garry, Caspers Dad > > Mike Thompson wrote: > > > > > --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system > > > > > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or > > > comments from the list. > > > > > > Harry, > > > > Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to > > the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really > > expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not > > using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. > > > > I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a > > bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel > > connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the > > components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no > > shields. > > > > Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside > > up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. > > > > Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, > > which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). > > > > I think both will work fine. > > > > Mike Thompson > > Austin, TX > > -6 N140RV (Reserved) > > Firewall Forward > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Primer lines
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Doyal, I bought all of mine from Wicks. I wanted to incorporate 2 of the AN804-2D fittings to attach the primer lines to, but they are not available any longer. These fittings can be clamped with an Adel clamp and the copper tubes ran from there. Go to Chris Good's Web site at http://rv.supermatrix.com/ and look under his engine section and you will see a picture of this. Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6 ----- Original Message ----- From: doyal plute <dplute(at)onemain.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:07 PM Subject: RV-List: Primer lines > > I am fabricating the primer system on my 0-360 engine and I am trying to > find AN > xxxx-01 copper tubing to connect to the AN4022-1 discharge nipples ( > this tubing is soldered into the AN800-2 union cone) > Does anyone know of a source for this? (need about 6 ft.) > Sincerely: > Doyal > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Oops rivets
> >I just ordered a bunch of NAS1097AD4-X.X rivets this morning from Van's. My >understanding is that the bodies of these fill an AD4 sized hole but have >the head like a AD3. Is this correct? Or should I have ordered NAS1097AD3 >rivets to have an AD3 head? > >Brian Woodruff Brian, The 4 in that part number refers to the diameter of the hole the rivet needs. So, it will fill an AD4 sized hole. Those rivets are wonderful things to fix the occasional mess up when drilling out rivets. The AD3 sized ones are great for holding plate nuts - the small head means you can countersink quite thin material nicely. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wes" <whays(at)camalott.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Dave, I think a lot depends on where you live. In West Texas I don't think you can get one big enough for the summer. I installed the largest Positech and have cooling problems. This cooler is known to not be as efficient as the SW. Brian Denk did some good work on this. However, At OSH, I visited with the Positech folks about my cooling problems and they said that they had heard about the problems on the RV's and had re-designed their coolers to increase the airflow by 50%. They also offered to replace my cooler with the new design at no charge. I was going to change to the equivalent SW cooler (1099?) but I thought I would wait until I have a chance to try the new Positech to see if it would be more efficient. Actually my temps have never gotten above the max even on the hottest days, however they really do climb when taxiing back after landing on the days the temps are 100+, or when I am having to fly slower (like going into OSH at 90k). After landing and taxiing back to parking at OSH, the oil temp climbed to 112C (233F) before shutdown. As long as I keep the speed up, the temps stay well within the range. Normal operating temps at cruise are between 85C (185F) and 97C (206F) which is well within the normal range. However if changing the cooler can reduce the temps 10% (I don't know if that is realistic or not) I will feel much more comfortable during the hot summer months. I have a cockpit adjustable gate that worked very well to keep the temps higher last winter when I was flying off the time. No problem keeping the temps in the 85C to 95C range even on the coldest days. Anyway, if Positech sends the cooler I will post the results after the installation since that will be the only thing I will change. If they don't send the cooler, I will post that also. I have to admit that they seemed very up front about the cooler's problems and expressed a great deal of interest in fixing it and getting the old coolers off the planes and out of the system. If any of you good folks have any other suggestions I would appreciate your thoughts. I will check the vernatherm valve at the next oil change coming up in the next few hours. So what say ye o wise ones? Keep your airspeed up!! Wes Hays N8444WB 148 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wes" <whays(at)camalott.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 03, 2001
RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" I'm doing OK with a seven row, behind cylinder #4, and a cool collar heat sink on the oil filter Brian, Can you tell me more about the "cool collar heat sink" for the oil filter and where to get one? Thanks, Wes Hays RV6-A N844WB Winters, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule(at)pfclaw.com>
Subject: Piper style electric stall warning switch
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Tim, Thanks for the link to the photos. Do you have a parts list for this device? Steve Soule RV-6A first engine start yesterday Huntington, Vermont -----Original Message----- By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Primer lines
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Most hardware stores also have 1/8" copper tubing. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:25 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Primer lines > >I am fabricating the primer system on my 0-360 engine and I am trying to >find AN >xxxx-01 copper tubing to connect to the AN4022-1 discharge nipples ( >this tubing is soldered into the AN800-2 union cone) >Does anyone know of a source for this? (need about 6 ft.) >Sincerely: >Doyal Doyal, Van's has it in their on-line catalog in the hardware section: CT0-125OD Soft Copper 1/8" $0.50 per ft. Aircraft Spruce also: 03-40900 COPPER TUBING 1/8 X .030 $1.250/ft (10 ft minumum) Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Garry, You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if they get contaminated with water. Water in the fuel is a fairly common problem in aircraft, so you need to have a fuel system design that is tolerant of it. The gascolator is great in this regard, because it just lets the water collect in the bottom of the bowl, but it continues to pass fuel. I know there are some RVs flying with in line filters. Can anyone share any test results showing how the filter handles water in the fuel? If you've found a filter that continues to flow fuel after swallowing a big slug of water, please tell us which filter it is. A Facet pump failure is not a big deal, as the engine driven pump will continue to do the job. I would hate to create a new failure mode that could stop the engine when all I was trying to do was make the Facet pump a bit more reliable. I've been told that one of the biggest cause of engine failures in the test flight phase is poorly thought out fuel system "improvements". So, be sure to do a proper ground and flight test program of any "improvements" you want to make to Van's design. His design has a very good service history. Take care, Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >TWO, I used BIG letters because they were important ones. Let me put >it this way, THE ENGINE STOPPED. And yes I agree with you, for >true redundancy a parallel system would be ideal. >If the engine is running at say cruise RPM, there is a good chance >that the engine pump will pull most stuff through the Facet pump and >then it can plug the engine driven pump or the screen in the carb. >Darn, the more I think of it the more I think I'll put in a inline >filter before the Facet pump that way it will protect the engine >pump and the carb. OH, I already did, didn't I. >Garry, Caspers Dad, >Just try to make a few bucks selling fuel filters. > > >"Owens, Laird" wrote: > >> >> Hey Garry, >> >> Of those failed pumps that you have inspected, how many have a >>failure mode where they wouldn't flow fuel once they died? >> >> If it doesn't fail closed then I'd say it's ok if you fail one >>once in a while, as it is a secondary pump. You'd have to loose >>both pumps before the things get real quite. If it could fail >>closed, then you have the classic single point failure. But then >>again, I've heard that the mechanical pump can fail in such a manor >>as to restrict flow. How many of us run a parallel line to bypass >>the mechanical pump in case of failure? Not many, I'd guess. >> >> Of course I'm just rationalizing here because I don't have a >>filter before the aux pump. >> >> Laird >> See you Saturday to inspect Casper. >> >> >> Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the >> pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a >> number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small >> bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their >> spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the >> pump. >> Garry, Caspers Dad >> >> Mike Thompson wrote: >> >> > >> > --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: >> > > >> > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system >> > >> > > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or >> > > comments from the list. >> > >> > >> > Harry, >> > >> > Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to >> > the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really >> > expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not > > > using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. >> > >> > I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a >> > bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel >> > connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the >> > components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no >> > shields. >> > >> > Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside >> > up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. >> > >> > Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, >> > which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). >> > >> > I think both will work fine. >> > >> > Mike Thompson >> > Austin, TX >> > -6 N140RV (Reserved) >> > Firewall Forward >> > >> > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ >> > >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oops rivets
My experience has been that Wicks search engine isn't worth poopy. Call 'em and ask...or email. -Larry --- gert wrote: > > Hmm, went to try and order some more oops rivets from Van's, the > NAS1097AD3-3.5 and cohorts. They are not on their website anymore. > They still seem to have the NAS1097AD4-X.X series > > tried Aircraft Spruce, no luck either. Avery seems to be out of the > rivet business also. Wicks search engine came up blank. > > I got some left but would like to refill the bin so to say. > > > Anybody know a place to buy NAS1097AD3 rivets in quanteties less than 1 > lbs ?? > > Thanks > > Gert > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > > > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Panther Electronics
Date: Aug 03, 2001
I saw their info at SNF & sent them an email about it. They said I could come over to demo a set. I haven't gotten around to that, yet. The prices are a little too steep for solving my problem of my Peltors falling off into the baggage compartment. What a hassle that is, trying to keep up with two -4's in front of you that are trying their very best to shake you while you try to fish out the headset from out back. Duct tape is cheaper than the Panther earpieces. Rick Caldwell -6 Melbourne, FL >From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Panther Electronics >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:18:02 -0400 > > >St Cloud? You're kidding. I grew up there..it's about 30 minutes from me >and I could go check Panther out for you if you'd like. > >Bill >-4 >Orlando > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim Bronson" <IMAV8N(at)compuserve.com> >To: "RV-List" >Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:25 PM >Subject: RV-List: Panther Electronics > > > > > > Hi Folks, especially Floridians, > > > > Have any of you ever heard of or dealt with Panther Electronics of St. > > Cloud, FL? I checked the archives and found no posts, and they are not > > listed in the Yeller Pages. They make a headset whose mirophone is > > embedded in an earpiece, eliminating a traditional boom mike. Looks > > interesting, though it's a bit pricey. Their web site is > > www.pantherelectronics.com. They feature a guy who uses this headset in >a > > Long EZ (yeah, I know) on their site. Anyone know anything about them? >I > > have e-mailed them and not received any replies. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tim > > Pittsburgh > > Future builder > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Don't need silver solder. regular works just fine. That is what we installed at Oshkosh and are running 175 Psi. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:33 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor I've just finished the airframe of the RV-6 and used a 5hp, three-cylinder, 60 gallon vertical tank rig situated in the unheated portion of the garage. Then, by silver soldered 3/4" copper pipe, I fed the air through the false wall and into the heated shop at the back of the garage. The compressor people told me about this arrangement which involves compressing cool air then running it into a heated space which reduces the relative humidity in it. It seemed to work and water was not a problem during any painting sessions. The local farm supply place( www.princessauto.com) sells automatic tank moisture drains that open at around 8-12psi. I also bought their 1-into-3 splitter for running more than one tool without changing hoses. All the air tools have "whips" on them(3'air lines) and I use an inline oiler at the connection between the main hose and the whip. This way, the main hose never has oil in it and can be hooked up directly to the HVLP gun. I tried one of the cheap, clear plastic oilers but it didn't last a day at 100+psi. Took it back to the industrial supply and bought a larger, heavier unit made out of black-anodized aluminum and brass-hasn't leaked a drop or blown a bubble in five years. Have to be careful not to bang it against the sheet metal though... Scott Jackson Vancouver, B.C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Schlosser <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > I've got the Campbell Hausfeld inline water filter. It's the > smaller one about the size of a gascolator. That'll do right? > > What about tool oiling? I see oiling manifolds for house air rigs. > I'm not sure if I want oil vapor injected into my air hoses if that's > what these things do. I'd assume anyone that uses those has a > separate hose for painting operations? > > This is my first attempt at using air powered tools, so I'd like to > do things properly. > > As for the die grinder, I wonder if connecting the 11 gallon tank > inline with the compressor's tank would help? > > Kevin > -=-=- > Looking forward to smashing rivets! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric.J.Henson(at)chase.com > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:37 AM > To: kevinschlosser(at)msn.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > > Kevin, no problem, thats overkill. The only real test for it will be your > die grinder, just be sure you protect your air tools from water coming > through the hose. The other test will be if you want to paint your plane > yourself using that compressor. Other than that no problem. > > Eric > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel System Plumbing Question > > Garry, > > You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. > I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if > they get contaminated with water. BIG SNIP > I've been told that one of the biggest cause of engine failures in > the test flight phase is poorly thought out fuel system > "improvements". So, be sure to do a proper ground and flight test > program of any "improvements" you want to make to Van's design. His > design has a very good service history. > > Take care, > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Kevin, I fly with inline filters and have had no problem as of yet. From what I have read, the filters with paper filter elements are the ones that can be adversely effected by water - supposedly causes the material to swell and reduce size of openings in the porous material thereby restricting fuel flow - at least that is what I have read. Ed Anderson Matthews, NC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: My new air compressor
--- Larry Bowen wrote: > > Why depressurize? > > I have a cutoff at the tank that I close when not it use. The line > will > eventually leak down to a neutral pressure after several hours. The > 60 gal > tank stays pressurized at ~130#. Is this bad form? Naw - that's just right. My problem is when I forget to close the valve and the system leaks down (you just can't make 5 quick-disconnects not leak air) and the compressor kicks in at 0200. But it's nice to be able to go out there, turn the valve and have air immediately. I would caution on plumbing that one use only metal lines between compressor and valve, though, lest over time constant pressure on anything other (dare I say PVC?) could cause a blow out. > > I also have a valve at the bottom that I crack open for a couple > seconds > once a week or so to drain the couple teaspoons of condensation. Once a week? Teaspoons? Must be nice... Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward ==== Michael E. Thompson (Grobdriver(at)yahoo.com) Austin, TX, USA RV-6 in progress, N140RV (Reserved) EX-AX1 Sub Hunter, P-3 (B/B-TACMOD/C) Orion Aircrew, PP-G,ASEL, Motorglider Driver and Unlimited Air Race Nut! http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
> > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> >To: >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:20 AM >Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel System Plumbing Question > > >> >> Garry, >> >> You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. >> I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if >> they get contaminated with water. BIG SNIP > >> I've been told that one of the biggest cause of engine failures in >> the test flight phase is poorly thought out fuel system >> "improvements". So, be sure to do a proper ground and flight test >> program of any "improvements" you want to make to Van's design. His >> design has a very good service history. >> >> Take care, >> >> Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > > >Kevin, > > I fly with inline filters and have had no problem as of yet. From what I >have read, the filters with paper filter elements are the ones that can be >adversely effected by water - supposedly causes the material to swell and >reduce size of openings in the porous material thereby restricting fuel >flow - at least that is what I have read. > >Ed Anderson >Matthews, NC > Ed, Wouldn't it be prudent to rig up a ground test on a test stand to confirm your choice of filter is OK with water? If there is a problem I'd sure rather find out that way than have the engine quit on you. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up a filter test rig with some lines using gravity to draw the fuel through the filter. Time how long it takes a certain amount of fuel to go through. Repeat the test with a good bunch of water in the fuel. Then, just in case it takes the filter a while to swell up, try the test again the next day, and then next week (leave the filter full of the water/fuel in between the tests, just like it would be in your aircraft). Of course, this test should be done out side, with fire extinguishers present. Metal resevoirs, with everything grounded together, etc. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Bryan" <timbryan(at)oregontrail.net>
Subject: Speaking of oops
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Hi Listers, I drilled the hole through one of my aileron bellcranks to an AN4 size when it should have been an AN3. Guess I drilled to many AN4's today. Anybody know of an fix other than buying parts and making a new bellcrank? The rod end that fits in it only takes a 3. Tim Bryan RV-6 Slider (N616TB Reserved) Finish kit but wanting to close my wings tim(at)bryantechnology.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rpflanze(at)iquest.net
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Subject: Re: Alternator problems
To anyone who's not purchased an alternator yet: Buy a B&C alternator and it will likely last for as long as you own your airplane. In my mind, it is money well spent and just one less thing to worry about once you're flying. Randy Pflanzer N417G RV-6 (Constant alternator problems in my Traumahawk) > >Chris, > >This is good information. I have Van's alternator too, but not flying yet. >I have been so paranoid about alternators that I have installed the >Loadmeter instrument from B&C that monitors and gives constant readings on >the alternator output and also the battery's condition. I have installed >the essential bus that bypasses the alternator in emergency situations. >Your alternator problem would have been easily indicated on the Loadmeter. > >Jerry Calvert >Edmond Ok >RV6 ...wrestling oil cooler > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com> >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:19 PM >Subject: RV-List: Alternator problems > > >> >> Listers, >> >> For the archive, I'd like to add my name to those who have had problems >> with Van's 35A alternator. When I had this problem, I checked the >archives >> & found a number of people reporting failure around 200 hrs. >> >> A couple of weeks ago, in the middle of a flight, my EIS-4000 flashed its >> Big Red Light at me to indicate low voltage. I was able to reduce the >load >> & restore the voltage to its usual charging level. I later determined >that >> the alternator output was down to about 12 amps. In discussion with a few >> people, I learned that these alternators probably have three pairs of >> diodes. I suspect that one pair went some time ago, bringing the output >to >> 24 amps, which I wouldn't even have noticed since the EIS-4000 does not >> include any current monitoring. Then when another pair went, that dropped >> it down to 12 amps. Of course maybe someone will tell me that alternators >> don't work this way at all! >> >> It has been hot in Wisconsin recently, probably 90 degrees the day I saw >> the failure. I did have a blast tube installed, taking air from the right >> cowl inlet to the back of the alternator. >> >> I'm not too upset about the failure, since it lasted nearly 250 hrs & was >a >> cheap & easy option for my initial installation. Also I'm happy it didn't >> fail completely & it didn't cause any diversions in flight. >> >> At Oshkosh I purchased the 40 amp alternator from B&C. It's a very nicely >> built unit, lighter than Van's, but of course quite a bit more >> expensive. I had to extend the mounting arm slot 3/8" so that I could use >> the existing Gates 7355 belt rather than the longer 7365 that was >> supplied. For the moment, I'm continuing to use Van's adjustable >regulator >> & Bob Nuckolls' OV protection unit. The new installation works perfectly. >> Regards, >> >> Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com >> West Bend, WI >> RV-6A N86CG, 245 hrs >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net>
Subject: AOA / LRI in ice
Date: Aug 03, 2001
So heated pressure ports/probes for these systems are really not worth anything ? S. Todd Bartrim 13B RV-9 CF-STB (reserved) Fuselage > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > Sent: August 2, 2001 5:48 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA / LRI in ice > > > > > > Hi All; > > Something that nobody has mentioned, but that I am > curious about. > >Each of these systems requires that you calibrate it to your specific > >airfoil by performing a series of manoeuvres in a test flight. Once done, > >these systems measure the aoa/lift of that specific airfoil > shape. Now when > >you encounter severe enough ice to approach a stall, the wing will have > >accumulated enough ice to change shape and will not be the same > airfoil that > >your system is calibrated for. > > Does this sound reasonable? > >With that said I would like to add that I do own the PSS AOA > sport model, to > >be installed in my RV-9, and I do believe them to be an > extremely valuable > >tool.* > > > >S. Todd Bartrim > > You are 100% right. Add some ice and the AOA indicator is now pretty > much useless. But, you'll likely collect ice in cruise, at a speed > well above the stall speed, so you shouldn't stall it then. > Hopefully you can remember to add a few knots on approach if you > still have ice on the aircraft. > > If you are collecting ice on the wing. you should be changing > altitudes right now, even if you have to declare an emergency to do > it. Thinner airfoils collect ice much faster than thick ones. So, > if you are seeing ice start to collect on the wings you probably > already have a lot of ice on the prop, and some ice on the HS and VS. > > Take care, > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > Ottawa, Canada > http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 03, 2001
This has been a useful topic and has made me think about putting a PSS in my RV-8. I have plenty of time in Citabrias, but it might be good life insurance in a high performance plane. Anybody else wondering if they would be bothered by the aural warning during a normal full stall landing? Steve Johnson RV-8 finishing wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Are Barstad" <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > Excellent post Mike! > > What we do know is that an AOA indicator will not in any way make your plane unsafe - it can only make it safer when installed, calibrated and used properly. > > The cost of an AOA system regardless of you deciding to use it as a backup or use your ASI as backup is worth it if it only saves your life _once_ that time when you're looking at something not paying attention (heaven forbid) and you hear the voice saying "Angle, Push!". > Personally I'll stick with PSS since I already prepared for it and since it's combined with an aural indicator. The others are probably just as good - only different flavours. > > Are > RV-8 Wings > > > > > From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> > > Date: 2001/08/02 Thu PM 02:07:38 EDT > > To: > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > > > > > Are, > > > > Unlike the airspeed indicator, the AOA device senses the same pressures that > > your airfoil sees. The AOA then displays that angle of attack almost > > instantly. Not only does it tell you when you've reached a critical angle > > of attack, it also shows the trend on the display and warns you AS YOU > > APPROACH that critical angle of attack. > > > > One of these days when our planes are complete, we'll be up at a safe > > altitude and pull up to see how that newly built baby will climb. If we > > pull up hard and wait for the airspeed indicator to get to the stall speed, > > you will most certainly have already stalled and started your recovery well > > before the ASI gets to stall speed. > > > > We all practice (or should practice) stalls in the departure and landing > > configurations. We're set up for it, we're looking for it and we can feel > > the controls as we get close to it. No problem. We correct our control > > inputs and go about our business. None of the stories I've read about, > > where pilots have stalled and died, happened while they were practicing > > stalls. No, they were doing something else. Maybe they were flying along > > at a slow speed to check out the neighborhood. Eyes outside, they see > > something they like and turn to check it out. As you said, eyes outside, > > flying the airplane. Maybe you get distracted at slow flight and turn to > > look at something and inadvertently give that sensitive RV stick a little > > tug more than you meant to (a certain John Denver story comes to mind). > > > > There are a bazillion scenarios that can hurt you and I don't think it has > > anything to do with being a good pilot or not. Lots of good pilots have met > > their maker in stall/spin accidents. A certain, very experienced, Glassair > > pilot last week at OSH with a bunch of hours comes to mind also. > > > > Looking at the AOA indicator is no different than looking at the airspeed > > indicator. We can fly with our heads outside the cockpit all day long but > > we still look at the airspeed indicator when flying slow. Why do we do > > that? Cause we don't want to fly to slow and stall. Why not look at an > > instrument that gives you more information than an airspeed indicator? You > > can still "fly with your head outside the cockpit". I can't speak for the > > others, but the PSS AOA instrument gives an audible warning as you NEAR the > > critical AOA. Get a little slow inadvertently and that cute little voice > > wakes you from your day dream "Angle, Angle, Push". > > > > Many of us are installing heated pitot/static systems in the anticipation of > > flying in the clouds or at night. Departing in IFR conditions regardless of > > airport density altitude or aircraft weight, I can't think of anything > > better than taking off, setting up a departure angle of attack and be on my > > merry way. A quick crosscheck with the ASI might just remind you that you > > forgot to turn on the pitot as the airspeed indicator winds down. > > > > Lots of planes have been flying lots of years without using an AOA devices. > > They will continue to do so. Lots of planes have been flying lots of years > > without GPS too, but having one sure makes getting lost harder to do. > > > > Flying by AOA sure makes inadvertent stalling less likely also. > > > > Thanks for the good discussion. > > > > Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com > > Plainfield, IL > > RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps > > Stinson 108-2 N9666K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jody Villa" <jodyvilla(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; Lancair 320 Promo tape Christen world of aerobatics Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines GlaStar Promo tape Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder Elevator Trim Tab Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab Rear Spar Front spar Skinning Vert. Stab Rudder Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) ************************************************** Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA ************************************************* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Oops rivets
Problem is, their website does not SHOW NAS1097AD3-X.X rivets anymore. Ony the NAS1097AD4 rivets. And no matter what quantity you order you will still get the NAS1097AD4 rivets, not the NAS1097AD3. "Ross A. Scroggs" wrote: > > > I just received 1/4lb of the NAS1097AD3-3.5 rivets from Vans, last week. On > the web page that shows the rivets are instructions on how to order in a > smaller quantity than 1 LB. It did work. > > Ross Scroggs > Conyers, Ga. > RV4, Emp. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com> > To: ; rv-list > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:21 PM > Subject: RV-List: Oops rivets > > > > > Hmm, went to try and order some more oops rivets from Van's, the > > NAS1097AD3-3.5 and cohorts. They are not on their website anymore. > > They still seem to have the NAS1097AD4-X.X series > > > > tried Aircraft Spruce, no luck either. Avery seems to be out of the > > rivet business also. Wicks search engine came up blank. > > > > I got some left but would like to refill the bin so to say. > > > > > > Anybody know a place to buy NAS1097AD3 rivets in quanteties less than 1 > > lbs ?? > > > > Thanks > > > > Gert > > -- > > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 03, 2001
I recommend blowing down (depressurizing) the compressor tank at the end of the work day. Corrosion is accelerated in high oxygen environments. Keeping pressure in the tank raised the oxygen partial pressure. This abundant amount of oxygen, in contact with residual moisture, drives corrosion. If you have an air dryer between the compressor and the storage tank, not an issue (assuming the dew point is kept well below zero). Most of us don't. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (systems install) Vienna, VA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Thompson" <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:56 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: My new air compressor > > --- Larry Bowen wrote: > > > > Why depressurize? > > > > I have a cutoff at the tank that I close when not it use. The line > > will > > eventually leak down to a neutral pressure after several hours. The > > 60 gal > > tank stays pressurized at ~130#. Is this bad form? > > Naw - that's just right. My problem is when I forget to close the > valve and the system leaks down (you just can't make 5 > quick-disconnects not leak air) and the compressor kicks in at 0200. > > But it's nice to be able to go out there, turn the valve and have air > immediately. I would caution on plumbing that one use only metal lines > between compressor and valve, though, lest over time constant pressure > on anything other (dare I say PVC?) could cause a blow out. > > > > > I also have a valve at the bottom that I crack open for a couple > > seconds > > once a week or so to drain the couple teaspoons of condensation. > > Once a week? Teaspoons? Must be nice... > > Mike Thompson > Austin, TX > -6 N140RV (Reserved) > Firewall Forward > > > ==== > Michael E. Thompson (Grobdriver(at)yahoo.com) > Austin, TX, USA > RV-6 in progress, N140RV (Reserved) > EX-AX1 Sub Hunter, P-3 (B/B-TACMOD/C) Orion Aircrew, > PP-G,ASEL, Motorglider Driver and Unlimited Air Race Nut! > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: My new air compressor
> >Why depressurize? > >I have a cutoff at the tank that I close when not it use. The line will >eventually leak down to a neutral pressure after several hours. The 60 gal >tank stays pressurized at ~130#. Is this bad form? > >I also have a valve at the bottom that I crack open for a couple seconds >once a week or so to drain the couple teaspoons of condensation. > >Larry Bowen >Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com >Web: http://BowenAero.com Why depressurize? Well, I suspect your tank is made of steel. Add moisture and oxygen and you get rust. At 130 psi above ambient pressure you've got about 145 psi absolute pressure in the tank, or about 10 times normal atmospheric pressure. So there is 10 times as much oxygen, and it will rust 10 times as fast. If you view the compressor tank as a throw away item, to be replaced once it rusts through, then don't worry about depressurizing it. If you want it to last as long as possible, then you should depressurize it after use. The choice is yours. Either way it'll likely last to the end of your project, unless you are a very slow builder. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rpflanze(at)iquest.net
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Subject: Re: Speaking of oops
You can order a rod-end bearing that would fit an AN-4 bolt, but it would cost you much, much more than a replacement bellcrank. Other solutions are also possible, but in my mind, undesirable. Take the easy way out. Toss the part in the scrap heap and order a new bellcrank from Van's and go work on another part of your project for awhile. The airleron linkage is not a place to have any slop or jury-rigged linkages. Just the tiniest bit of slop will make it very difficult to achieve neutral aileron trim once you're flying. Randy Pflanzer N417G RV-6 (175 hours) > >Hi Listers, > >I drilled the hole through one of my aileron bellcranks to an AN4 size when >it should have been an AN3. Guess I drilled to many AN4's today. Anybody >know of an fix other than buying parts and making a new bellcrank? The rod >end that fits in it only takes a 3. > >Tim Bryan >RV-6 Slider (N616TB Reserved) Finish kit but wanting to close my wings >tim(at)bryantechnology.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Matthew Gelber <mgelber(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
The Airflow Performance filter is a big heavy billet aluminum thing, huge compared to automotive fuel filters- at least as large as a gascolator and probably heavier. It uses a pleated stainless steel filter that passes water just fine, at least according to them. Filters with paper filtering units are the ones that don't work, the paper absorbs the water and then the gas can't pass through. Compared to the Andair gascolator (the only one I've examined closely), it has a much larger filtering area with a little bit coarser mesh in the filter screen. Vans diagram shows it mounted up/down with the inlet on the bottom and the outlet on top. I wonder if this is so that if a slug of water gets in it gets bubbled through the filter instead of passed all at once? No idea... I returned my andair gascolator and am using the AP fuel filter instead. Why? 'Cause Vans for the 8 show an AP pump and an AP filter. Everywhere else I tried to better his design I came up short so I'm not going to try it here. (Right! I'm know I'm a sissy) Matthew 8A canopy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel System Plumbing Question Garry, You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if they get contaminated with water. Water in the fuel is a fairly common problem in aircraft, so you need to have a fuel system design that is tolerant of it. The gascolator is great in this regard, because it just lets the water collect in the bottom of the bowl, but it continues to pass fuel. I know there are some RVs flying with in line filters. Can anyone share any test results showing how the filter handles water in the fuel? If you've found a filter that continues to flow fuel after swallowing a big slug of water, please tell us which filter it is. A Facet pump failure is not a big deal, as the engine driven pump will continue to do the job. I would hate to create a new failure mode that could stop the engine when all I was trying to do was make the Facet pump a bit more reliable. I've been told that one of the biggest cause of engine failures in the test flight phase is poorly thought out fuel system "improvements". So, be sure to do a proper ground and flight test program of any "improvements" you want to make to Van's design. His design has a very good service history. Take care, Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >TWO, I used BIG letters because they were important ones. Let me put >it this way, THE ENGINE STOPPED. And yes I agree with you, for >true redundancy a parallel system would be ideal. >If the engine is running at say cruise RPM, there is a good chance >that the engine pump will pull most stuff through the Facet pump and >then it can plug the engine driven pump or the screen in the carb. >Darn, the more I think of it the more I think I'll put in a inline >filter before the Facet pump that way it will protect the engine >pump and the carb. OH, I already did, didn't I. >Garry, Caspers Dad, >Just try to make a few bucks selling fuel filters. > > >"Owens, Laird" wrote: > >> >> Hey Garry, >> >> Of those failed pumps that you have inspected, how many have a >>failure mode where they wouldn't flow fuel once they died? >> >> If it doesn't fail closed then I'd say it's ok if you fail one >>once in a while, as it is a secondary pump. You'd have to loose >>both pumps before the things get real quite. If it could fail >>closed, then you have the classic single point failure. But then >>again, I've heard that the mechanical pump can fail in such a manor >>as to restrict flow. How many of us run a parallel line to bypass >>the mechanical pump in case of failure? Not many, I'd guess. >> >> Of course I'm just rationalizing here because I don't have a >>filter before the aux pump. >> >> Laird >> See you Saturday to inspect Casper. >> >> >> Mike, I don't wish to offend you, but not filtering the fuel prior to the >> pump is a mistake. I have personally inspected these pumps after failure, a >> number of times. They are susceptible to malfunctioning due to very small >> bits of debris, because of the small passage size and design of their >> spring loaded check valve. Please filter the fuel before it goes into the >> pump. >> Garry, Caspers Dad >> >> Mike Thompson wrote: >> >> > >> > --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: >> > > >> > > All: I am considering the following arrangement of fuel system >> > >> > > components in my RV-6 and would appreciate any and all suggestions or >> > > comments from the list. >> > >> > >> > Harry, >> > >> > Am working that system now. I ran from the valve to the wing root, to >> > the pump then to gascolator (both in the root area). Do you really >> > expect large enough garbage in the fuel to foul the pump? I am not > > > using an inline filter prior to the boost pump. >> > >> > I then run the lines from the root back into the cabin and up to a >> > bulkhead elbow at the firewall. I wanted to get as many fuel >> > connections out of the cabin as I could, and you're right - the >> > components will be nice and cool out there. No blast tubes, no >> > shields. >> > >> > Once under the cowl I tee to primer solenoid (upside down or rightside >> > up) also to fuel flow sensor thence to mechanical pump. >> > >> > Aside from our boost pump / gascolator order we've got the same setup, >> > which I unashamedly copy from flying RV's (-6's). >> > >> > I think both will work fine. >> > >> > Mike Thompson >> > Austin, TX >> > -6 N140RV (Reserved) >> > Firewall Forward >> > >> > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ >> > >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Thread-Topic: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Thread-Index: AcEbw1eDEjbQOyUiSY2WIqEpueGhZgAaSAkg
From: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com>
Thanks, Tim. That was the post I was thinking of in my previous post which questioned the validity of the data these devices present. Again, not intending to flame the manufacturers of these devices, I'm a pragmatist and I get a little offended (well, not really, I find it a little humorous) when someone tries to sell us RVers something "it ain't", because I'm a dinosaur that relies on my airspeed indicator and the seat of my pants. I can't help but to think of those infomercials you see late at night where they spill red wine on white carpet and clean it up instantly with their $19.95 a bottle product. To oversimplify this subject, what are we trying to detect here? The onset of a stall. Seems to me that AOA devices detect some conditions of a stall (differential pressures) which does not take into account cg, flap settings, or loading or any other conditions that affect stall speed. So, these devices aren't telling you all that you need to know to avoid a stall, because there's other conditions that need to be measured to get the whole picture. Now, think about the homebuilt 20 dollar stall detection vane. This device is telling you that airflow is beginning to separate from the outboard leading edge of the wing. It's telling you what you ultimately want to know. It doesn't cost $400 or $700. Its light and simple. It will work correctly under all conditions of cg, weight, flap, etc. (if its not iced up.) Simple to calibrate. If AOA devices were the best thing since sliced bread then all the spam manufacturers would be installing them, from a liability standpoint. Hmmm, they're still using those old, antiquated stall vanes...go figure. I think I will be adding a stall horn as Tim describes to my airplane sometime soon, after I do some more research. I'm wondering how big the vane needs to be, and how much force is required to close the switch, and if the arm of the microswitch could be used as a vane directly, provided it wasn't thin and flimsy. How far out do they need to hang in the breeze? Bob Japundza RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying ~185 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Burton" <dburton(at)nwlink.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
> >> Garry, > >> > >> You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. > >> I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if > >> they get contaminated with water. BIG SNIP > > > >> I've been told that one of the biggest cause of engine failures in > >> the test flight phase is poorly thought out fuel system > >> "improvements". So, be sure to do a proper ground and flight test > >> program of any "improvements" you want to make to Van's design. His > >> design has a very good service history. There are lots of folks running filters in their planes, and so far may have had no problems. Two members of my EAA chapter have suffered off airport landings when their inline fuel filters plugged up. A gascolator would not have plugged up under their circumstances. Dave Burton RV6 wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question Answer-Long
Kevin, The testing you suggest I might won't to do, were done. In 1979 and again in 2000. In 1979, after soak testing for 3 months, and ground flow tests using combinations of fuel, fuel / water and water only, a Fram (I believe it was a G-1) was installed on the prototype Q2. This filter was replaced (as well as almost the entire aircraft) at 260 hr., after Gene Shehan crashed landed the Q2 after 1/2 the propeller blade departed the aircraft during a propeller test. When the Q2 was rebuilt the local auto parts store in Mojave was a Wix reseller, so a Wix 33001 ( equivalent to the G-1) was chosen. No testing was performed at that time regarding the water handling abilities of the Wix filter. This filter was replaced at approx. 620 hr. (360 hr. in service). The replacement was in service approx. 300 hr., until the aircraft ws sold in 1984. Periodically small droplets of water could be see in these filters. When this happened the filter was removed, the water was dumped out and the filter returned to service. When planing my "6"s fuel system in 2000, I again utilized a Wix filter ( part # 3303 the last 3 designates a 3/8th fuel line). The same testing was performed as was performed in 1979. Only this time the fuel, fuel/water and water only, were sucked through the filter by a BD 2 ounce syringe, instead of using a funnel and pouring the fluid into it as on the first test. In addition, prior to performing these tests a filter was submerged in a jar of water for almost 6 months. When removed from the jar the filter flowed fuel as fast as it had prior to the test. Like many things in aviation circles, the water issue with these filters is another urban myth. At least with the Fram or Wix products. There may be some basis for the myth, such as some one may have used a econo "no name brand" filter that did react badly with water. I will continue to trust the Fram and Wix products, however, I chose to use the Wix product because the case is clear, which makes it easy to spot any contamination in the fuel while flying, and that and the pump protection is an "improvement on Van's design". Lets not forget the pump manufacturer says " to protect the pump install an inline fuel filter between the fuel tank and the pump inlet." Kevin Horton wrote: > > Garry, > > You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. > I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if > they get contaminated with water. Water in the fuel is a fairly > common problem in aircraft, so you need to have a fuel system design > that is tolerant of it. SNIP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rpflanze(at)iquest.net
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Subject: Re: Cheap Videos
I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is resold, you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending it to George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are ardent RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being resold on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue that they are entitled to. I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier for me to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my hobby possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against anyone who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. And I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a personal choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to suggest it. For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get angry over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling up the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind one way or the other. Randy Pflanzer N417G RV-6 (175 hours) > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > >Lancair 320 Promo tape >Christen world of aerobatics >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines >GlaStar Promo tape >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > Elevator > Trim Tab >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > Rear Spar > Front spar > Skinning > Vert. Stab > Rudder > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) >************************************************** >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > >************************************************* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik(at)bewellnet.com>
Subject: NAS1097AD3
Ryan Severance wrote: > > The oops rivet NAS1097AD4 is used in a 3/32 holes that has been drilled out > to the 1/8 size (Oops!). It has the same (very close) head as an AD3 rivet. > So where would you use a NAS1097AD3 oops rivet? Do they make such a > thing? Or are you actually looking for an AD4... > The best use I found for the AD3 oops rivet was/is for installing platenutes. Just over-deburr the hole and it is ready for the reduced head 1097 rivet, no dimple needed. Gary Zilik ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Garry LeGare <"versadek"@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Dave, Lets not lump all inline filters into one category. The filters I refer to have large area pleated, treated paper filters, manufactured by Fram & Wix. To pug one of these type of filters would take a huge amount of contamination. The other type of inline filter, is one that uses a ceramic element or some type of screen and has very little effective filtration area. One brand "Alonda" was sold by ASAS and supplied by them with the Quickie ( single seat, garden tractor engined) and Varieze Kits. These would plug up with construction debris( composite fuel tanks tend to end up with more crap in them than aluminum ones), in no time at all (usually while doing taxi testing, thankfully, don't ask how I know), and most people took them off their aircraft and replaced them with the Fram/Wix type. ASAS eventually stopped selling them. I bet if you check into it you will find that the two plugged filters were the screen type and the aircraft probably had a composite fuel tank. I forgot to mention, that if you talk to a Wix engineer about water and their filters they will tell you that, the filter medium will slowly swell, a small amount, if immersed in water for long periods( months), but will not impeded the flow of fuel significantly. Garry, Caspers Dad Still trying to make a buck selling these filters. David Burton wrote: There are lots of folks running filters in their planes, and so far may > have had no problems. Two members of my EAA chapter have suffered off > airport landings when their inline fuel filters plugged up. A gascolator > would not have plugged up under their circumstances. > > Dave Burton > RV6 wings > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: bob adams <pingobingo@moseslake-wa.com>
Subject: Angle of Attack
Hey, distinguished friends: I have acquired (thru eBay) an old Jaeger B-2 "Angle of Attack" which reads 0 to 30 degrees nose up or down, and has no connections to anything, the only thing on the back is a locking screw. I,m told they were used in WWII and were considered useful for gliders. Any body know what use this is for? Thanks, Bob Adams, -6A finishing stage. Maybe you could use this to determine the slope of the runway? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: old ogre <jollyd(at)teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of oops
make a sleeve Tim Bryan wrote: > > Hi Listers, > > I drilled the hole through one of my aileron bellcranks to an AN4 size when > it should have been an AN3. Guess I drilled to many AN4's today. Anybody > know of an fix other than buying parts and making a new bellcrank? The rod > end that fits in it only takes a 3. > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 Slider (N616TB Reserved) Finish kit but wanting to close my wings > tim(at)bryantechnology.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Off-List Randy, You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful post. If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case Geipel is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is charging $35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it would be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder for the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and Becky......Al Al Mojzisik InAir Instruments, LLC Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) AOA and SO much more! http://www.liftreserve.com > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is >resold, >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending it to >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are ardent >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being resold >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue that >they are entitled to. > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier for me >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my >hobby >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against >anyone >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. And >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a personal >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to >suggest >it. > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get >angry >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling up >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind one >way or the other. > >Randy Pflanzer N417G >RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > >Christen world of aerobatics > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > >GlaStar Promo tape > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > Elevator > > Trim Tab > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > Rear Spar > > Front spar > > Skinning > > Vert. Stab > > Rudder > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > >************************************************** > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > >************************************************* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Are Barstad <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Boy, you guys are sure getting me confused... :) I have been out spending money today and paid for my fuselage in full to get it ASAP (yeah!! - Molson time as soon as I get home!). I was also going to put in an order for the PSS system but... The PSS kit can be installed as a retrofit easily since I already prepared for plumbing it. After much consideration I have decided to finish my RV-8, fly it and do some testing. If my RV-8's tail shakes before stall like Randy Lervold, Brian Denk and Terry Burch described earlier in the 'tail shake' thread, then I probably won't need anything. IF there is no shake and IF... the people here that are installing the PSS or LRI system in their RV's find that it really is a cat's behind, then I might buy it. If not, then maybe a home-brew stall horn (unless of course I don't need anything...). Sure, it would be nice to instantly know max range and max endurance, ideal cruise climb etc, but it doesn't take much to figure this out within acceptable tolerances. It would be nice, but at the cost (CDN$1274.00 for PSS) it doesn't hurt to wait. I can float down the runway for a while until I figure it out... :) I don't know of any fields around here (except heli-pads and my back yard) that can't take an RV even if it comes in 15 mph fast. Are RV-8 Wings (Fuse on order - AoA devices on the shelf... for now) > > From: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> > Date: 2001/08/03 Fri PM 12:15:26 EDT > To: > Subject: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > > Thanks, Tim. That was the post I was thinking of in my previous post > which questioned the validity of the data these devices present. Again, > not intending to flame the manufacturers of these devices, I'm a > pragmatist and I get a little offended (well, not really, I find it a > little humorous) when someone tries to sell us RVers something "it > ain't", because I'm a dinosaur that relies on my airspeed indicator and > the seat of my pants. I can't help but to think of those infomercials > you see late at night where they spill red wine on white carpet and > clean it up instantly with their $19.95 a bottle product. > > To oversimplify this subject, what are we trying to detect here? The > onset of a stall. Seems to me that AOA devices detect some conditions > of a stall (differential pressures) which does not take into account cg, > flap settings, or loading or any other conditions that affect stall > speed. So, these devices aren't telling you all that you need to know > to avoid a stall, because there's other conditions that need to be > measured to get the whole picture. Now, think about the homebuilt 20 > dollar stall detection vane. This device is telling you that airflow is > beginning to separate from the outboard leading edge of the wing. It's > telling you what you ultimately want to know. It doesn't cost $400 or > $700. Its light and simple. It will work correctly under all > conditions of cg, weight, flap, etc. (if its not iced up.) Simple to > calibrate. If AOA devices were the best thing since sliced bread then > all the spam manufacturers would be installing them, from a liability > standpoint. Hmmm, they're still using those old, antiquated stall > vanes...go figure. I think I will be adding a stall horn as Tim > describes to my airplane sometime soon, after I do some more research. > I'm wondering how big the vane needs to be, and how much force is > required to close the switch, and if the arm of the microswitch could be > used as a vane directly, provided it wasn't thin and flimsy. How far > out do they need to hang in the breeze? > > Bob Japundza > RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying ~185 hours > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Murphy, Richard James (Rick)" <rjmurphy1(at)lucent.com>
Subject: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Ok Randy, Sold Me. I'm just starting my RV and would look forward to a video guide on the empanage. Can you suggest how I might contact, order videos from these good people. I'll be only too happy to help them ring the register. Rick Murphy > ---------- > From: rpflanze(at)iquest.net[SMTP:rpflanze(at)iquest.net] > Reply To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:58 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheap Videos > > > I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > resold, > you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending it > to > George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are > ardent > RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being > resold > on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue > that > they are entitled to. > > I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier for > me > to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > hobby > possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against > anyone > who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. > And > I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > personal > choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > suggest > it. > > For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get > angry > over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling > up > the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind > one > way or the other. > > Randy Pflanzer N417G > RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > >Christen world of aerobatics > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > >GlaStar Promo tape > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > Elevator > > Trim Tab > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > Rear Spar > > Front spar > > Skinning > > Vert. Stab > > Rudder > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > >************************************************** > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > >************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Hahaha...ok, well I got a good laugh at this one. Guess Al forgot to change the address when he hit reply. Been there, done that....of course I never got caught bad mouthing someone when I did it. Too funny. Oh, and while you do-gooders are at it...please send a check to the car company of choice every time you buy a used car. Don't forget the one to lycoming when you buy a used engine and if you go the new engine route...demand that you pay retail..after all it is your fair share. Bill Never heard anything so ridiculous in my life -4 wings > > Off-List > > Randy, > > You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful post. > If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case Geipel > is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is charging > $35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post > that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it would > be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder for > the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and > Becky......Al > > Al Mojzisik > InAir Instruments, LLC > Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) > AOA and SO much more! > http://www.liftreserve.com > > > > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > >resold, > >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending it to > >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are ardent > >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being resold > >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue that > >they are entitled to. > > > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier for me > >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > >hobby > >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against > >anyone > >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. And > >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a personal > >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > >suggest > >it. > > > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get > >angry > >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling up > >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind one > >way or the other. > > > >Randy Pflanzer N417G > >RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > > >Christen world of aerobatics > > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > > >GlaStar Promo tape > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > > Elevator > > > Trim Tab > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > > Rear Spar > > > Front spar > > > Skinning > > > Vert. Stab > > > Rudder > > > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > > >************************************************** > > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > > > >************************************************* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Todd W. Rudberg" <todd_rudberg(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aileron Attach and alignment.
Date: Aug 03, 2001
I tried to align the ailerons to the wing last night. Came up with an interesting problem. First of all I followed Van's plans which says to attach the A-406 and A-407 as the last step of Aileron assembly prior to attaching to wing -- mistake! I assumed this was to be done in that order . Then I read the posts concerning this issue and watched the Ordinoff video on the subject and found that these really should be drilled during attachment and after alignment to the wing. Well, guess what...the aileron is shifted off the OML (outer mold line) toward the bottom skin by .100". It looks bad to me. It is the same inboard and outboard, so there is no twist and the effects are only cosmetic. I guess not a big deal, I ordered new brackets... But, I also noticed that the tooling holes for the aileron are off the chord line toward the top of the wing. This conflicts with the posts I have read that say to make the tooling holes collinear for perfect aileron alignment. Aligning the tooling holes in the aileron to the tooling holes in the main and tip ribs would exacerbate the problem mentioned above. What gives? The aileron is very straight, I built it on a piece of granite and there was no measurable twist. I took time to dial in the wing to the jig then dowelled it in position...nothing moved during assembly. I verified this after all the drilling was done. The tooling holes on the main and tip ribs appear to be collinear with the chord, but I am not too sure that the aileron are...at least on my kit. To see what I am talking about please see the page I made concerning this issue: http://www.geocities.com/todd_rudberg/a_and_f_attach.html Lastly, how much gap do you guys end up with from the top skin to the Aileron skin. It looks like a lot to me and moving the aileron toward the top skin will only alleviate it a small amount. Probably an attempt by Van's to make it harder to tell if the OML of the main skins and the aileron skins are off something like .100" :-). When I figure out what to do, I will update this page so that those who follow can at least see what I learned about this annoying subject. Todd W. Rudberg RV-8 Wings (N232TB Reserved) mailto:todd_rudberg(at)yahoo.com www.geocities.com/todd_rudberg Home: (425)290-7526 Cell: (425)870-5300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Al Mojzisik <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: Re: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
OOOOOOOoppppps........... Well as you can probably tell that was supposed to be off list....... What an embarrassing mistake. Sorry........ AL > >Off-List > >Randy, > >You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful post. >If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case Geipel >is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is charging >$35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post >that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it would >be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder for >the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and >Becky......Al > >Al Mojzisik >InAir Instruments, LLC >Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) >AOA and SO much more! >http://www.liftreserve.com > > > > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > >resold, > >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending > it to > >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are ardent > >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being resold > >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional > revenue that > >they are entitled to. > > > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier > for me > >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > >hobby > >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against > >anyone > >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame > Jody. And > >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > personal > >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > >suggest > >it. > > > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get > >angry > >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling up > >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind one > >way or the other. > > > >Randy Pflanzer N417G > >RV-6 (175 hours) Al Mojzisik InAir Instruments, LLC Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) AOA and SO much more! http://www.liftreserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com>
Subject: Fuselage-mounted strobes
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Has anyone experience with installing or using the tiny, white, tail strobelight assembly as a flashing, anti-collision light mounted on the belly or the vert stab top? Thanks, Scott,-6 in Vancouver> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 03, 2001
> >RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > I'm doing OK with a seven row, behind cylinder #4, and a cool collar heat >sink on the oil filter > >Brian, >Can you tell me more about the "cool collar heat sink" for the oil filter >and where to get one? > >Thanks, >Wes Hays > Wes, and all the other curious listers, The "cool collar" is available from JC Whitney. It costs a whopping $17, and simply slips over the oil filter and is held in place with a single hose clamp. It's a soft aluminum alloy machined with cooling fins. You spread it out a bit to slip over the filter, and put it on. Can be done in minutes. Simple and effective. Seems to knock my peak oil temp down 5-10 degrees and slows the rate of temperature rise during climbs. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD 240 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Bill VonDane <bvondane(at)cso.atmel.com>
Subject: Cheap Videos
http://www.fly-gbi.com/ They sell some other great stuff for the RV builder as well... -Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Murphy, Richard James (Rick) Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:48 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Cheap Videos Ok Randy, Sold Me. I'm just starting my RV and would look forward to a video guide on the empanage. Can you suggest how I might contact, order videos from these good people. I'll be only too happy to help them ring the register. Rick Murphy > ---------- > From: rpflanze(at)iquest.net[SMTP:rpflanze(at)iquest.net] > Reply To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:58 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheap Videos > > > I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > resold, > you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending it > to > George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are > ardent > RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being > resold > on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue > that > they are entitled to. > > I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier for > me > to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > hobby > possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against > anyone > who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. > And > I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > personal > choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > suggest > it. > > For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get > angry > over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling > up > the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind > one > way or the other. > > Randy Pflanzer N417G > RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > >Christen world of aerobatics > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > >GlaStar Promo tape > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > Elevator > > Trim Tab > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > Rear Spar > > Front spar > > Skinning > > Vert. Stab > > Rudder > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > >************************************************** > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > >************************************************* > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: AOA / LRI in ice
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Once the PSS holes ice up your done. The LRI with its heated probe will give you a qualitative indication, meaning it will show a loss of lift available but it will not be quantitative. How much lift is available. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Haywire Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: AOA / LRI in ice So heated pressure ports/probes for these systems are really not worth anything ? S. Todd Bartrim 13B RV-9 CF-STB (reserved) Fuselage > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > Sent: August 2, 2001 5:48 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA / LRI in ice > > > > > > Hi All; > > Something that nobody has mentioned, but that I am > curious about. > >Each of these systems requires that you calibrate it to your specific > >airfoil by performing a series of manoeuvres in a test flight. Once done, > >these systems measure the aoa/lift of that specific airfoil > shape. Now when > >you encounter severe enough ice to approach a stall, the wing will have > >accumulated enough ice to change shape and will not be the same > airfoil that > >your system is calibrated for. > > Does this sound reasonable? > >With that said I would like to add that I do own the PSS AOA > sport model, to > >be installed in my RV-9, and I do believe them to be an > extremely valuable > >tool.* > > > >S. Todd Bartrim > > You are 100% right. Add some ice and the AOA indicator is now pretty > much useless. But, you'll likely collect ice in cruise, at a speed > well above the stall speed, so you shouldn't stall it then. > Hopefully you can remember to add a few knots on approach if you > still have ice on the aircraft. > > If you are collecting ice on the wing. you should be changing > altitudes right now, even if you have to declare an emergency to do > it. Thinner airfoils collect ice much faster than thick ones. So, > if you are seeing ice start to collect on the wings you probably > already have a lot of ice on the prop, and some ice on the HS and VS. > > Take care, > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > Ottawa, Canada > http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Re: Reasons to use AOA devices
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Some like them some don't. Important thing is to use one. Best way to fly. Unless you have a smart enough pair of jeans thus able to fly bythe seat of your pants that you can tell in a 3 G turn when the airplane will stall. Or Vmc. or Vx, which changes with altitude, Vy, which changes with altitude, but the AOA remains constant, slowest possible speed for lift off, slowest safest approach speed etc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Johnson Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices This has been a useful topic and has made me think about putting a PSS in my RV-8. I have plenty of time in Citabrias, but it might be good life insurance in a high performance plane. Anybody else wondering if they would be bothered by the aural warning during a normal full stall landing? Steve Johnson RV-8 finishing wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Are Barstad" <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > Excellent post Mike! > > What we do know is that an AOA indicator will not in any way make your plane unsafe - it can only make it safer when installed, calibrated and used properly. > > The cost of an AOA system regardless of you deciding to use it as a backup or use your ASI as backup is worth it if it only saves your life _once_ that time when you're looking at something not paying attention (heaven forbid) and you hear the voice saying "Angle, Push!". > Personally I'll stick with PSS since I already prepared for it and since it's combined with an aural indicator. The others are probably just as good - only different flavours. > > Are > RV-8 Wings > > > > > From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> > > Date: 2001/08/02 Thu PM 02:07:38 EDT > > To: > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Reasons to use AOA devices > > > > > > Are, > > > > Unlike the airspeed indicator, the AOA device senses the same pressures that > > your airfoil sees. The AOA then displays that angle of attack almost > > instantly. Not only does it tell you when you've reached a critical angle > > of attack, it also shows the trend on the display and warns you AS YOU > > APPROACH that critical angle of attack. > > > > One of these days when our planes are complete, we'll be up at a safe > > altitude and pull up to see how that newly built baby will climb. If we > > pull up hard and wait for the airspeed indicator to get to the stall speed, > > you will most certainly have already stalled and started your recovery well > > before the ASI gets to stall speed. > > > > We all practice (or should practice) stalls in the departure and landing > > configurations. We're set up for it, we're looking for it and we can feel > > the controls as we get close to it. No problem. We correct our control > > inputs and go about our business. None of the stories I've read about, > > where pilots have stalled and died, happened while they were practicing > > stalls. No, they were doing something else. Maybe they were flying along > > at a slow speed to check out the neighborhood. Eyes outside, they see > > something they like and turn to check it out. As you said, eyes outside, > > flying the airplane. Maybe you get distracted at slow flight and turn to > > look at something and inadvertently give that sensitive RV stick a little > > tug more than you meant to (a certain John Denver story comes to mind). > > > > There are a bazillion scenarios that can hurt you and I don't think it has > > anything to do with being a good pilot or not. Lots of good pilots have met > > their maker in stall/spin accidents. A certain, very experienced, Glassair > > pilot last week at OSH with a bunch of hours comes to mind also. > > > > Looking at the AOA indicator is no different than looking at the airspeed > > indicator. We can fly with our heads outside the cockpit all day long but > > we still look at the airspeed indicator when flying slow. Why do we do > > that? Cause we don't want to fly to slow and stall. Why not look at an > > instrument that gives you more information than an airspeed indicator? You > > can still "fly with your head outside the cockpit". I can't speak for the > > others, but the PSS AOA instrument gives an audible warning as you NEAR the > > critical AOA. Get a little slow inadvertently and that cute little voice > > wakes you from your day dream "Angle, Angle, Push". > > > > Many of us are installing heated pitot/static systems in the anticipation of > > flying in the clouds or at night. Departing in IFR conditions regardless of > > airport density altitude or aircraft weight, I can't think of anything > > better than taking off, setting up a departure angle of attack and be on my > > merry way. A quick crosscheck with the ASI might just remind you that you > > forgot to turn on the pitot as the airspeed indicator winds down. > > > > Lots of planes have been flying lots of years without using an AOA devices. > > They will continue to do so. Lots of planes have been flying lots of years > > without GPS too, but having one sure makes getting lost harder to do. > > > > Flying by AOA sure makes inadvertent stalling less likely also. > > > > Thanks for the good discussion. > > > > Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com > > Plainfield, IL > > RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps > > Stinson 108-2 N9666K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Come to minnesota we will take you for a ride. Think about this though. PSS anf LRI both use differential pressure. They both measure the same thing. They both are on one wing, they both need to be in unobstructed airflow. How do you like your display? Thats your choice. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lewis Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:53 PM Subject: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA It appears to be time for the annual LRI discussion. We hit this topic in Nov 98, Oct 99, Mar 00, and now Aug 01. It's an interesting topic. I've found having an audible stall warning system to be invaluable. On a couple of occasions I've allowed my attention to wander from airspeed, got slow while down low (circling at the direction of the tower, while looking for traffic), and had the stall warning activate. I think it can be a life saver in "low and slow" situations. The Piper style stall tab warns of stall based on air flow change that occurs before the wing stalls. True AoA systems (Rite Angle, PSS, others), if equipped with an audible device, can sound warning of a stall based on the fact that a given wing stalls at the same AoA, regardless of airspeed. These are well understood principles. The situation isn't so clear with the LRI. Way back on 28 Nov 98 Peter Bennett posted a well thought out mathematical analysis (available in the archives, search for "pbennett & LRI") that questions whether the LRI gives the same stall warning in all weight and G loading conditions. Peter's analysis is straight forward, and convinced me that the LRI web site's claims of "Reliable under all conditions of weight... flap position... angle of bank" are suspect. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has published rigorous flight test data to support the LRI claims. One acquaintance of mine "rolled his own" LRI type device (based on the drawings and info in the LRI patent) and reported that at high G loads the unit gave an inappropriately high indication of "lift reserve" when the aircraft stalled. That data (not from a commercially produced LRI unit) seems to support Peter's 1998 analysis. I'd sure like to see some actual flight test data showing LRI indication vs stall speed across a broad range of aircraft weights and G loading. By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. Tim Lewis Just returned from OSH, with 260 hours on RV-6A N47TD ****** Tim Lewis -- Fairfax, VA RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99 http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a ****** ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Shipping is $20 from us. That makes it $420. We have always been fair with the RV guys. We have always given Rv folks a better deal. Ya'll need to check the facts before "Flaming" as you say. Are Oshkosh orders all paid $20 shipping. Insured priority mail and packaging does cost. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Al Mojzisik Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:22 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: OFF-List: Cheap Videos OOOOOOOoppppps........... Well as you can probably tell that was supposed to be off list....... What an embarrassing mistake. Sorry........ AL > >Off-List > >Randy, > >You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful post. >If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case Geipel >is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is charging >$35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post >that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it would >be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder for >the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and >Becky......Al > >Al Mojzisik >InAir Instruments, LLC >Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) >AOA and SO much more! >http://www.liftreserve.com > > > > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > >resold, > >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending > it to > >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are ardent > >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being resold > >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional > revenue that > >they are entitled to. > > > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier > for me > >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > >hobby > >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not against > >anyone > >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame > Jody. And > >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > personal > >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > >suggest > >it. > > > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and get > >angry > >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling up > >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind one > >way or the other. > > > >Randy Pflanzer N417G > >RV-6 (175 hours) Al Mojzisik InAir Instruments, LLC Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) AOA and SO much more! http://www.liftreserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
LRI mounts easily in the aileron bell crank inspection panel. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Are Barstad Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: Re: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Boy, you guys are sure getting me confused... :) I have been out spending money today and paid for my fuselage in full to get it ASAP (yeah!! - Molson time as soon as I get home!). I was also going to put in an order for the PSS system but... The PSS kit can be installed as a retrofit easily since I already prepared for plumbing it. After much consideration I have decided to finish my RV-8, fly it and do some testing. If my RV-8's tail shakes before stall like Randy Lervold, Brian Denk and Terry Burch described earlier in the 'tail shake' thread, then I probably won't need anything. IF there is no shake and IF... the people here that are installing the PSS or LRI system in their RV's find that it really is a cat's behind, then I might buy it. If not, then maybe a home-brew stall horn (unless of course I don't need anything...). Sure, it would be nice to instantly know max range and max endurance, ideal cruise climb etc, but it doesn't take much to figure this out within acceptable tolerances. It would be nice, but at the cost (CDN$1274.00 for PSS) it doesn't hurt to wait. I can float down the runway for a while until I figure it out... :) I don't know of any fields around here (except heli-pads and my back yard) ! that can't take an RV even if it comes in 15 mph fast. Are RV-8 Wings (Fuse on order - AoA devices on the shelf... for now) > > From: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> > Date: 2001/08/03 Fri PM 12:15:26 EDT > To: > Subject: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > > Thanks, Tim. That was the post I was thinking of in my previous post > which questioned the validity of the data these devices present. Again, > not intending to flame the manufacturers of these devices, I'm a > pragmatist and I get a little offended (well, not really, I find it a > little humorous) when someone tries to sell us RVers something "it > ain't", because I'm a dinosaur that relies on my airspeed indicator and > the seat of my pants. I can't help but to think of those infomercials > you see late at night where they spill red wine on white carpet and > clean it up instantly with their $19.95 a bottle product. > > To oversimplify this subject, what are we trying to detect here? The > onset of a stall. Seems to me that AOA devices detect some conditions > of a stall (differential pressures) which does not take into account cg, > flap settings, or loading or any other conditions that affect stall > speed. So, these devices aren't telling you all that you need to know > to avoid a stall, because there's other conditions that need to be > measured to get the whole picture. Now, think about the homebuilt 20 > dollar stall detection vane. This device is telling you that airflow is > beginning to separate from the outboard leading edge of the wing. It's > telling you what you ultimately want to know. It doesn't cost $400 or > $700. Its light and simple. It will work correctly under all > conditions of cg, weight, flap, etc. (if its not iced up.) Simple to > calibrate. If AOA devices were the best thing since sliced bread then > all the spam manufacturers would be installing them, from a liability > standpoint. Hmmm, they're still using those old, antiquated stall > vanes...go figure. I think I will be adding a stall horn as Tim > describes to my airplane sometime soon, after I do some more research. > I'm wondering how big the vane needs to be, and how much force is > required to close the switch, and if the arm of the microswitch could be > used as a vane directly, provided it wasn't thin and flimsy. How far > out do they need to hang in the breeze? > > Bob Japundza > RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying ~185 hours > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I recognize that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have 250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the price. I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let you all know what I think of it. Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. Rob Hickman RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt(at)intergate.ca>
Subject: Baffeling Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Engine Cooling Baffles I am making the engine cooling baffles for my 6-A (0-320) from paper patterns that I purchased from Vans, however there were no instructions supplied with the drawings so I have the following question. At the cowling air inlets,- how close should the baffle inlet floor be to the underside of the cowling air inlet, or should the floor be cut off just short of the fiberglass with a seal projecting forward underneath the fiberglass? A nice tight fit with the aluminum under the fiberglass looks best but does not allow for the engine to rock on the engine mounts. Thanks, George McNutt Baffeling in Langley, B.C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Attach and alignment.
From: Eric.J.Henson(at)chase.com
Date: Aug 03, 2001
05:05:10 PM Dude, you been Van-dalized! Use that silly wooden template as a holder to hold the aileron/flap off the floor. Tooling holes are for tooling, they have no place in this equation. What matters here? Well, its an airfoil, I'm no aerodynamicist but I did beat one up in a bar once, I still tend to think that airflow is pretty important. Not meaning to disenfranchise tooling holes the world over but, for my money I like to think in the terms of Mr. air molecule. There he is floating along nice and happy when whoosh the nicely backriveted airscoop (the wing) skims by him. Well naturally he wants to grab ahold for a second, but this is not what you want. What you want is for Mr. air molecule to just slide on by due to a perfectly flat skin line. By skin line I mean top skin of the wing flowing smoothly into the top skin of the aileron. It sure looks nice too. Remember, Mr. air molecules cousin is under the wing trying to grab ahold of the leading edge of the aileron. If you don't get that aileron up nice and tight to the top skin of the wing you are dragging that leading edge every where you go. So how do you know? Its real easy, take a 4' ruler and clamp it to the top outboard skin where you mount your wing tip. With the aileron in the wooden template/holders, clamp the outboard overhang of the aileron top skin to the ruler. Get the lower wing clamp and the upper aileron clamp as close together as you can. Theres your position. Now lock it in with your NEW brackets, make sure the wooden holders don't interfere. Thats as good as you can get. The ruler won't lie. Now cut two pieces of scrap that you can use to trap the skin overhangs of the flap and aileron where they come together. Lock the aileron into position with the outboard ruler. Now put a clecoe through the two pieces of scrap (one on top of the skins one under) this will sandwich the flap to the aileron and let you start matching the flaps position to the perfect position of the aileron. You can take it from there. BTW, I didn't really beat up an aerodynamicist. Those guys carry straight razors in those pocket protectors ya know. Eric Henson "Todd W. Rudberg" (at)matronics.com on 08/03/2001 03:13:29 PM Please respond to rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: RV-List: Aileron Attach and alignment. I tried to align the ailerons to the wing last night. Came up with an interesting problem. First of all I followed Van's plans which says to attach the A-406 and A-407 as the last step of Aileron assembly prior to attaching to wing -- mistake! I assumed this was to be done in that order . Then I read the posts concerning this issue and watched the Ordinoff video on the subject and found that these really should be drilled during attachment and after alignment to the wing. Well, guess what...the aileron is shifted off the OML (outer mold line) toward the bottom skin by .100". It looks bad to me. It is the same inboard and outboard, so there is no twist and the effects are only cosmetic. I guess not a big deal, I ordered new brackets... But, I also noticed that the tooling holes for the aileron are off the chord line toward the top of the wing. This conflicts with the posts I have read that say to make the tooling holes collinear for perfect aileron alignment. Aligning the tooling holes in the aileron to the tooling holes in the main and tip ribs would exacerbate the problem mentioned above. What gives? The aileron is very straight, I built it on a piece of granite and there was no measurable twist. I took time to dial in the wing to the jig then dowelled it in position...nothing moved during assembly. I verified this after all the drilling was done. The tooling holes on the main and tip ribs appear to be collinear with the chord, but I am not too sure that the aileron are...at least on my kit. To see what I am talking about please see the page I made concerning this issue: http://www.geocities.com/todd_rudberg/a_and_f_attach.html Lastly, how much gap do you guys end up with from the top skin to the Aileron skin. It looks like a lot to me and moving the aileron toward the top skin will only alleviate it a small amount. Probably an attempt by Van's to make it harder to tell if the OML of the main skins and the aileron skins are off something like .100" :-). When I figure out what to do, I will update this page so that those who follow can at least see what I learned about this annoying subject. Todd W. Rudberg RV-8 Wings (N232TB Reserved) mailto:todd_rudberg(at)yahoo.com www.geocities.com/todd_rudberg Home: (425)290-7526 Cell: (425)870-5300 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <tcwatson(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Bill, Aren't you the guy that doesn't believe in contributing money to Matt for the RV list? My humblest apologies if I am remembering wrong, but it all seems to fit. I will eagerly await your always creative and humorous flame. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:13 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: OFF-List: Cheap Videos > > Hahaha...ok, well I got a good laugh at this one. Guess Al forgot to change > the address when he hit reply. Been there, done that....of course I never > got caught bad mouthing someone when I did it. Too funny. > > Oh, and while you do-gooders are at it...please send a check to the car > company of choice every time you buy a used car. Don't forget the one to > lycoming when you buy a used engine and if you go the new engine > route...demand that you pay retail..after all it is your fair share. > > Bill > Never heard anything so ridiculous in my life > -4 wings > > > > > > Off-List > > > > Randy, > > > > You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful > post. > > If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case > Geipel > > is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is charging > > $35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post > > that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it would > > be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder > for > > the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and > > Becky......Al > > > > Al Mojzisik > > InAir Instruments, LLC > > Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) > > AOA and SO much more! > > http://www.liftreserve.com > > > > > > > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that is > > >resold, > > >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending > it to > > >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are > ardent > > >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being > resold > > >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional revenue > that > > >they are entitled to. > > > > > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier > for me > > >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make my > > >hobby > > >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not > against > > >anyone > > >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame Jody. > And > > >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > personal > > >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted to > > >suggest > > >it. > > > > > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and > get > > >angry > > >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than filling > up > > >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind > one > > >way or the other. > > > > > >Randy Pflanzer N417G > > >RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > > > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > > > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > > > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > > > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > > > >Christen world of aerobatics > > > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > > > >GlaStar Promo tape > > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > > > Elevator > > > > Trim Tab > > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > > > Rear Spar > > > > Front spar > > > > Skinning > > > > Vert. Stab > > > > Rudder > > > > > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > > > >************************************************** > > > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > > > > > >************************************************* > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Baffeling Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
George, The baffle kit plans say 3/8" clearance and the baffle seal covers the gap. Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6...finish kit ----- Original Message ----- From: George McNutt <gmcnutt(at)intergate.ca> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:08 PM Subject: RV-List: Baffeling Question > > > Engine Cooling Baffles > > I am making the engine cooling baffles for my 6-A (0-320) from paper > patterns that I purchased from Vans, however there were no instructions > supplied with the drawings so I have the following question. > > At the cowling air inlets,- how close should the baffle inlet floor be to > the underside of the cowling air inlet, or should the floor be cut off just > short of the fiberglass with a seal projecting forward underneath the > fiberglass? > > A nice tight fit with the aluminum under the fiberglass looks best but does > not allow for the engine to rock on the engine mounts. > > Thanks, > > George McNutt > Baffeling in Langley, B.C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Jessen <jjessen(at)cmbinfo.com>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Folks: I have not particularly enjoyed this thread, but one thing is true, a stall warning device of some type needs to be on the plane. I will do my own research about what type is best, but I would encourage a full range of test numbers be published that takes into account various configurations, flight attitudes, altitudes, etc. If such has been done, then I'd appreciate where I can read about it and study it. The free market is obviously alive and well on the site, but given that we are talking safety here, let's examine the performance numbers as openly as we debate shipping charges and OSH specials. John -----Original Message----- From: RobHickman(at)aol.com [mailto:RobHickman(at)aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:51 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I recognize that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have 250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the price. I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let you all know what I think of it. Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. Rob Hickman RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Kerr" <kerrjb(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Mountain Avionics (Dynon thread)
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Don, I think I have one of those devices that you are talking about, an ipaq with Anywhere Software. It is an absolute delight and I have flown over 11000 miles with it since SnF when I purchased it. It has never locked up once in that time. I know that it can and plan to keep my klunker 195 up and running as a backup and driving my Navaid, but the difference in the utility between the 2 systems is not even in the same ball park, the ipaq is so far superior that I would really feel naked flying without it again. Bernie Kerr, 6A, SE Fla. . see my Alaska trip pictures and notes regarding the ipaq at www.rotaryaviation.com or at Doug Reeves site under articles From: "Don Hyde" <DonH(at)axonn.com> . > > From user reports about the (I forget the name) WinCE-PDA-based system, it > sounds like it crashes from time to time just like the Win98 on my desktop. > That means that during a cross-country that's long enough to use up a tank > of gas, you can expect to have to reboot it once or twice. > > Now, I don't know about you, but the thought of having to reboot my entire > instrument panel every couple of hours does not make me feel very good. I > just know it will happen on final when I've misjudged the weather and it's > worse than I thought it would be. > > TSO'ed instruments with software inside them (like GPS's) are required to > pass (with a bunch of documentation) a bunch of software tests (DO-178B, if > my memory serves), that are designed to make sure it doesn't crash, and that > it gets the right answers to display on its screen. > > When one one of these guys can show that they've tested their software that > severely, then I'll be ready to throw out all the steam gauges and slap one > of these guys in (or preferably two, so I have a backup). Then my biggest > problem will be what to do with all that empty panel space. My wife has > suggested a bud vase... > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay(at)jetstream.net>
Subject: Fuel System Plumbing Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
The building of my RV 6 was 1990-1992 and the fuel system was plumbed as per Van's instructions and drawings using soft aluminum tubing and his standard fuel selector, Facet pump and firewall mounted gascolator with Aero- Quip lines firewall forward connected to a carburettored 0360. The only down side to this was the unhandy draining of the gascolator and the need to have the Facet pump on to drain it. Some years ago I changed to a Bendix fuel injection system which resulted in the fuel pressure going from 4-5 pounds to 20-22 pounds. I was uncomfortable putting this pressure through my gascolator so I moved the gascolator into the gap between the fuselage and the tank on the left side. This made it easy to drain and also eliminated the need to use the boost pump to drain it because of the low location, all that is required is to have the fuel selected on. In the event of a blown tank, fuel from the other tank will gravity to the gascolator and now the pumps will eliminate most of the delay in getting fuel back to the engine. The system is still basically the same retaining the original plumbing but routing the line from the selector to the engine via the root mounted gascolator then to the boost pump mounted low down in the fuselage about were the landing gear weldment would be on the 6A then on to the firewall. With the fuel injection system I debated the filter question but realized that in all the years of flying both carburettored and fuel injected I couldn't recall ever having anything but a gascolator and screens in the systems, and with the gascolator's ability to handle a fair amount of water and not wanting to add any more restrictions in the fuel system decided against it. In the fifty odd years of flying I have never had a incidence were fuel contamination has been a problem. However I have only flown the Bendix and Continental injection systems and the various pressure carburettor. My control for this has been to use a funnel and filter if fueling out of barrels or antiquated fueling systems which is a rare thing now days. With the aircraft level drain some fuel out of the wing tanks and gascolator before every flight, no exceptions. I installed a purge valve when I went to fuel injection and find that I get quicker starts and hot starts are about the same as cold starts once I got used to it. On the purge valve I used a simple control, same as the carb heat but have a spring which will keep it closed in the event of a control failure. My return line from the purge valve goes back into the left tank. I have found that building to Van's drawings and instructions is usually the best way to go, the simpler the better. An example is his fuel selector valve, mine is ten years old and working the same as when it was installed. Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Brian Lloyd reported on the flight testing he did on his PSS installation back in January 1999. Go to the archives and search on "AoA indicator report" (don't type the quote marks). Summary - once he had it calibrated he found it was accurate flaps up and flaps down, and at up to 4g (he didn't test at higher load factors). He installed the system in a CJ-6, not his RV, but I suspect the basic conclusions would be valid on RVs, if the system was properly calibrated, and there were no leaks in the plumbing. I'm not aware of any listers who reported detailed test results for the LRI, but I could have missed it. Some RV-8 builders report good stall warning buffet, so I'm not installing an AOA system in my plane yet. But, if I'm not happy with the natural stall warning after I get flying, I'll install one of the systems. If I decide to install an AOA system, I hope to bum a flight in an aircraft with each of the competing systems so I can judge for myself which one I like the best. I want good aural or tactile stall warning, far enough in advance of the stall so I can take a second to go "WTF?" and recover before actually stalling. I want the system to be accurate flaps up, down, and when pulling g. Some listers have expressed concerns about the possible effect of CG on the accuracy of AOA systems. The wing will stall at the same AOA regardless of the CG. So, any system that uses airflow or pressure around the wing to activate it should not be affected by CG. There has also been a discussion about the effect of ice. Once you have ice on the aircraft you can't trust the AOA systems to tell the truth, but you can't rely on the airspeed indicator as a measure of how far you are from stall either. Based on my experiences doing flight testing with Styrofoam simulated ice shapes on wings and tails (up to 1.5 inches of ice on the wing, and 3 inches on the tail), and also with 40 grit sandpaper on the leading edges, a small amount of ice can be even worse than a large amount of ice on some aircraft. But, in either case you should be OK if you add 20 mph to your normal approach speed. I would avoid the use of full flap, as some aircraft have a tailplane stall problem with full flap if there is ice on the HS leading edge. So, half flap would be a better bet. If in doubt, try a slow reduction to your planned approach speed at altitude, so see how the plane handles it (just like you did on your first flight). Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >Folks: > >I have not particularly enjoyed this thread, but one thing is true, a stall >warning device of some type needs to be on the plane. I will do my own >research about what type is best, but I would encourage a full range of test >numbers be published that takes into account various configurations, flight >attitudes, altitudes, etc. If such has been done, then I'd appreciate where >I can read about it and study it. > >The free market is obviously alive and well on the site, but given that we >are talking safety here, let's examine the performance numbers as openly as >we debate shipping charges and OSH specials. > >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: RobHickman(at)aol.com [mailto:RobHickman(at)aol.com] >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:51 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > >After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a >good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so >happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been >flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think >that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I >recognize >that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have > >250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall >warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the >price. > > >I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let > >you all know what I think of it. > >Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased > >insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. > >Rob Hickman >RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com>
Subject: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Oh Geeeez.... It must be getting that time of year again. What say we all do a pre-emptive strike and mail Matt a check for $20-50.oo and skip that whole darn thread. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Watson <tcwatson(at)seanet.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:11 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: OFF-List: Cheap Videos > > Bill, > > Aren't you the guy that doesn't believe in contributing money to Matt for > the RV list? My humblest apologies if I am remembering wrong, but it all > seems to fit. > > I will eagerly await your always creative and humorous flame. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net> > To: > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:13 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: OFF-List: Cheap Videos > > > > > > Hahaha...ok, well I got a good laugh at this one. Guess Al forgot to > change > > the address when he hit reply. Been there, done that....of course I never > > got caught bad mouthing someone when I did it. Too funny. > > > > Oh, and while you do-gooders are at it...please send a check to the car > > company of choice every time you buy a used car. Don't forget the one to > > lycoming when you buy a used engine and if you go the new engine > > route...demand that you pay retail..after all it is your fair share. > > > > Bill > > Never heard anything so ridiculous in my life > > -4 wings > > > > > > > > > > Off-List > > > > > > Randy, > > > > > > You're an all right guy. That was a very well written and thoughtful > > post. > > > If more people felt that way it would be a better world. In my case > > Geipel > > > is low balling to make sales to RVers but I also know that he is > charging > > > $35 shipping and I'm not charging RVer's shipping but the minute I post > > > that he'll match me. Oh well if more people thought like you do it > would > > > be a lot easier to make stuff available to RV builders and a lot harder > > for > > > the JPI's and Geipels. Take care and thanks on behalf of George and > > > Becky......Al > > > > > > Al Mojzisik > > > InAir Instruments, LLC > > > Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) > > > AOA and SO much more! > > > http://www.liftreserve.com > > > > > > > > > > >I have a comment about reselling Orndorff videos. If you buy one that > is > > > >resold, > > > >you may want to consider putting a few bucks in an envelope and sending > > it to > > > >George and Becki. They both have been on the list for years and are > > ardent > > > >RV supporters. They have never complained about their products being > > resold > > > >on the List even though doing so probably robs them of additional > revenue > > that > > > >they are entitled to. > > > > > > > >I don't have any stake in GBI other than their products made it easier > > for me > > > >to get my RV in the air. I personally like to support those that make > my > > > >hobby > > > >possible and think that most of us feel the same way too. I'm not > > against > > > >anyone > > > >who wants to resell the vidoes so please don't take this as a flame > Jody. > > And > > > >I'm not wanting to start a big debate on the subject either. It's a > > personal > > > >choice. Do it or don't do it, I don't care either way. I just wanted > to > > > >suggest > > > >it. > > > > > > > >For those of you that will ultimately take this post the wrong way and > > get > > > >angry > > > >over my suggestion, send your response to me directly rather than > filling > > up > > > >the List with points and counter-points that won't change anyone's mind > > one > > > >way or the other. > > > > > > > >Randy Pflanzer N417G > > > >RV-6 (175 hours) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In the process of cleaning out my video library for the move to a new > > > > >home I have come across some videos I would like to get rid of and > > > > >some of you might want. All I want is for you to pay for the shipping > > > > >and I would prefer you take all of them. Here is the list; > > > > > > > > > >Lancair 320 Promo tape > > > > >Christen world of aerobatics > > > > >Power by Victor - Victor Black discusses engines > > > > >GlaStar Promo tape > > > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Rudder > > > > > Elevator > > > > > Trim Tab > > > > >Orndorff 6/8 Emp: Horizontal Stab > > > > > Rear Spar > > > > > Front spar > > > > > Skinning > > > > > Vert. Stab > > > > > Rudder > > > > > > > > > >Notice how I sweetened the pot at the end ;>) > > > > >************************************************** > > > > >Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA > > > > > > > > > >************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Todd Rudberg <todd_rudberg(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Attach and alignment.
Definitely Van-dalized...not the first time...usually I read far enough ahead and catch it. I agree with you on the tooling holes. They are not an interesting part of this discussion. OML rules, tooling holes are just that...tooling holes used by Van's rib forming vendor. Todd. Tooling holes are for tooling, they have no > place in this equation. http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Attach and alignment.
FYI, a local professional builder has built 4 RV's this way, and I recently got off the phone with Miles at Van's and he suggested I re-align my ailerons using the tooling holes instead of the wood template. The wings are indeed designed off the tooling holes. Think about it. If you were not consistant where the location of the tooling holes were located, the ribs would not be consistantly formed. Another check. Align the wing to the aileron with the ruler method, and then check your tooling holes. I'd bet the farm that it is pretty darn close. Paul --- Todd Rudberg wrote: > > > Definitely Van-dalized...not the first > time...usually > I read far enough ahead and catch it. > > I agree with you on the tooling holes. They are not > an interesting part of this discussion. OML rules, > tooling holes are just that...tooling holes used by > Van's rib forming vendor. > > > Todd. > > Tooling holes are for tooling, they have no > > place in this equation. > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Does the LRI compensate for the deployment of flaps? Does the LRI have an audible alert? Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Plainfield, IL RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps Stinson 108-2 N9666K > > Come to minnesota we will take you for a ride. Think about this though. PSS > anf LRI both use differential pressure. They both measure the same thing. > They both are on one wing, they both need to be in unobstructed airflow. How > do you like your display? Thats your choice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lewis > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:53 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > > It appears to be time for the annual LRI discussion. We hit this topic > in Nov 98, Oct 99, Mar 00, and now Aug 01. It's an interesting topic. > > I've found having an audible stall warning system to be invaluable. > On a couple of occasions I've allowed my attention to wander from > airspeed, got slow while down low (circling at the direction of the > tower, while looking for traffic), and had the stall warning activate. I > think it can be a life saver in "low and slow" situations. > > The Piper style stall tab warns of stall based on air flow change that > occurs before the wing stalls. True AoA systems (Rite Angle, PSS, > others), if equipped with an audible device, can sound warning of a > stall based on the fact that a given wing stalls at the same AoA, > regardless of airspeed. These are well understood principles. > > The situation isn't so clear with the LRI. Way back on 28 Nov 98 Peter > Bennett posted a well thought out mathematical analysis (available in > the archives, search for "pbennett & LRI") that questions whether the > LRI gives the same stall warning in all weight and G loading > conditions. Peter's analysis is straight forward, and convinced me that > the LRI web site's claims of "Reliable under all conditions of weight... > flap position... angle of bank" are suspect. To the best of my > knowledge, nobody has published rigorous flight test data to support > the LRI claims. One acquaintance of mine "rolled his own" LRI type > device (based on the drawings and info in the LRI patent) and > reported that at high G loads the unit gave an inappropriately high > indication of "lift reserve" when the aircraft stalled. That data (not > from a commercially produced LRI unit) seems to support Peter's 1998 > analysis. I'd sure like to see some actual flight test data showing LRI > indication vs stall speed across a broad range of aircraft weights and > G loading. > > By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall > warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple > of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web > site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. > > Tim Lewis > Just returned from OSH, with 260 hours on RV-6A N47TD > > ****** > Tim Lewis -- Fairfax, VA > RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99 > http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a > ****** > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Scott.Fink(at)microchip.com
Subject: A/C Compressor for PA28-140
Date: Aug 03, 2001
08/03/2001 04:38:28 PM, Serialize complete at 08/03/2001 04:38:28 PM This is kind of a long shot, but maybe somebody bought a PA28 wreck for parts: Does anyone on the list (or off for that matter, but then they wouldn't see this post, would they?) happen to have an A/C compressor that they would like to part with? It looks like it is the same for the PA28-140, PA28-180, PA28-181, and PA28R-200, and is Piper part number 555 412. It doesn't have to be in good shape, just rebuildable. I will check with Wentworth, etc. on Monday when they are open again, but hoping someone wants to clean out their hangar. Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Oops rivets
> So where would you use a NAS1097AD3 oops rivet? Do they make such a > thing? I use these (NAS1097AD3-X.X) all the time to mount platenuts on material like .032 alu. sheet. This way i do not have to have dimpled platenuts. the smaller head will not countersink through the sheet aluminum. Or are you actually looking for an AD4... Nope, just the NAS1097AD3 Van's still sells them but not currently on the website. is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
> The PSS kit can be installed as a retrofit easily since I already prepared for plumbing it. After much consideration I have decided to finish my RV-8, fly it and do some testing. If my RV-8's tail shakes before stall like Randy Lervold, Brian Denk and Terry Burch described earlier in the 'tail shake' thread, then I probably won't need anything. IF there is no shake and IF... the people here that are installing the PSS or LRI system in their RV's find that it really is a cat's behind, then I might buy it. Are (and others), Let me clarify one thing... the pre-stall tail shake only occurs, in my plane at least, in 1G stalls. I will go out and do some accelerated stalls this weekend to verify what I think I remember here. BTW, my informal survey of RV-8s that are flying reveals that 50-60% of them exhibit the tail shake and 40-50% of them don't. I got into a very interesting discussion standing around the RV area at Arlington with four RV-8 flyers all at once. One of them said he had none at all, two of them (including me) said that they had noticeable tail shake, and one described his as "violent". The only other RV-8 that I've personally been up in was in Florida and it was exactly like mine. Van's is working on this in their own quiet way. I'm sure we'll know more about what is causing it, and whether it needs to be addressed or not, within a few months. FWIW, Randy Lervold RV-8, N558RL, 89.1 hrs www.rv-8.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Weeelllll, not exactly. I really didn't want to get into this one, but that last posting went a little far. Yes, both PSS and LRI measure differential pressure but they DO NOT measure the same thing. The PSS unit has ports on the top and bottom of the wing, positioned according to the MAC of the airfoil. This pressure differential can be mathematically converted to Coefficient of Lift which is a simple function of the Angle of Attack. You can also calibrate the PSS instrument for flaps, not so with the LRI. The LRI probe, on RVs, is usually placed where the inspection plate is on the underside of the wing. Is this because of any necessary mathematical requirement? No, it's just convenient. The transformation of the LRI probe's differential data to AOA requires a mathematical assumption or "leap of faith", if you will. Physicists do this when dealing with quantum mechanics but mathematicians generally do not, for good reason. One poster said the LRI is "proven" to work with/without flaps. I can find no documentation for this claim. If any such data does exist, please forward it to me and I will publish a retraction. Some have mentioned CG location as a factor in stalling. This may happen in certain situations where the CG was so far out of whack that the nose could not be lowered enough to reduce the AOA. It does not change the AOA, tho. CG location will affect longitudinal stability but not AOA, provided the airfoil has not changed. One poster seemed to imply that he adjusts his flight airspeeds by the density attitude to avoid stalling. The equation for lift compensates for "rho", air density, with a velocity equation (1/2 rho V squared). Thus, the wing flies in "indicated airspeed" to generate lift, altho TAS is used for navigation and for plotting landing/take off distances, Vx, Vy, Vs, Vso are still flown at the proper indicated airspeed. For "Dinosaur" (?Allosaur) Bob J.--look at some pictures of the Wright Flyer (several different models were made with that name) and some pictures will show a 2 foot long "stick" in front of the wing leading edge with a piece of yarn/string attached to the front of the stick, out of the disturbed airstream, as a very nice AOA indicator and costs less than $20. Once you know the lifting properties of your wing this will reliably predict an approaching stall and several other flight speeds, albeit not with the greatest of accuracy (unless you mounted a large protractor just parallel to it). I would probably question its durability, however. In summary, AOA information is just another tool in your flying toolbox. If you are going to depend on one, make sure it actually measures AOA. It's not just a stall warning device. Lovingly, Boyd. Bill Geipel wrote: > > > Come to minnesota we will take you for a ride. Think about this though. PSS > anf LRI both use differential pressure. They both measure the same thing. > They both are on one wing, they both need to be in unobstructed airflow. How > do you like your display? Thats your choice. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Will Cretsinger <cretsinger(at)ticnet.com>
Subject: Two Experiences
On Wednesday 25 July, I cleared Canadian Customs at Whitehorse, capitol of Yukon Territory. On the same day RVator Bob Bristol cleared U. S. Customs at Sault Ste Marie, Michigan. The experiences were quite different. I had called Canadian Customs from Northway, Alaska, and provided the usual information re alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. This was my third Canada entry in two years and they had my info on their data base. It rained almost all the way from Northway to Whitehorse so we just followed the Alaska Highway. We landed at 1030PM in light rain with good daylight but the runway lights were nonetheless a welcome sight. Upon landing, the tower directed us to the customs area and told us to use the telephone if no customs person met us. I used the phone and was given an authorization number...and that was that...very courteous and efficient...and free. Bob landed in Michigan enroute to OSH within two minutes of his ETA. He had the U. S. Customs decal on his plane...this decal costs $25 upon first entry each calendar year. His plane was emptied and his luggage searched. His documents including license and medical were examined. Subsequently, I reentered the USA on Friday 22 July at Spokane International. I had intended to enter at Spokane Felts Field (general aviation, low fuel price) but had been advised by U. S. Customs that I would have a two hour wait for customs service if I landed at Felts even though it is an airport of entry. With this threat I landed at Spokane International...and cleared the customs lady in about 30 minutes...already having my $25 decal saved about five minutes. I paid $3.015 for fuel...the highest price encountered in Canada and Alaska! Makes me wonder if customs gets a cut! My conclusion is that Canadian Customs are user friendly and U. S. Customs are definitely NOT. Is U. S. Customs really intercepting drugs and saving our country from all evil? Is their negative reputation unjust? My first U. S. reentry in year 2000 was at Cleveland, Ohio, where I waited 45 minutes to give my $25 for the right to come home. Visit Canada...the people are great...as are the customs people! But be sure you have $25 in order to come home! Will Cretsinger, Arlington, Texas RV-6A...54.4 hours to Arctic Circle and home ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Baffeling Question
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Hello George, The 3/8" measurement is what the plan calls out for the gap between The inlet and the forward baffle floor. The gap seal is to be attached to bottom of the fiberglass inlet opening so as to project back and over the top of the inlet floor. This way the engine can shake around as it will and the air pressure will be pushing the seal down against the inlet floor. Of course the seal should also curve up the sides so as to interface with the rest of the sealing system Jim in Kelowna - Fitting air box ----- Original Message ----- From: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt(at)intergate.ca> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: RV-List: Baffeling Question > > > Engine Cooling Baffles > > I am making the engine cooling baffles for my 6-A (0-320) from paper > patterns that I purchased from Vans, however there were no instructions > supplied with the drawings so I have the following question. > > At the cowling air inlets,- how close should the baffle inlet floor be to > the underside of the cowling air inlet, or should the floor be cut off just > short of the fiberglass with a seal projecting forward underneath the > fiberglass? > > A nice tight fit with the aluminum under the fiberglass looks best but does > not allow for the engine to rock on the engine mounts. > > Thanks, > > George McNutt > Baffeling in Langley, B.C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: An old soldier... (Not RV related)
--- Ken Balch wrote: > > My father-in-law, a man I loved and greatly respected, died last > night. I lift my wine glass to your father-in-law, his comrades and his generation. My condolences to your family and his. Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward ==== Michael E. Thompson (Grobdriver(at)yahoo.com) Austin, TX, USA RV-6 in progress, N140RV (Reserved) EX-AX1 Sub Hunter, P-3 (B/B-TACMOD/C) Orion Aircrew, PP-G,ASEL, Motorglider Driver and Unlimited Air Race Nut! http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OFF-List: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 03, 2001
No flame. Too easy. Thanks for playing. Bill > > Bill, > > Aren't you the guy that doesn't believe in contributing money to Matt for > the RV list? My humblest apologies if I am remembering wrong, but it all > seems to fit. > > I will eagerly await your always creative and humorous flame. > > Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Two Experiences
<-- Lots of good stuff removed --> >My conclusion is that Canadian Customs are user friendly and U. S. >Customs are definitely NOT. Is U. S. Customs really intercepting drugs >and saving our country from all evil? Is their negative reputation >unjust? My first U. S. reentry in year 2000 was at Cleveland, Ohio, >where I waited 45 minutes to give my $25 for the right to come home. > >Visit Canada...the people are great...as are the customs people! But be >sure you have $25 in order to come home! > >Will Cretsinger, Arlington, Texas I have to admit my experiences with clearing US Customs in a light aircraft have not been great either. But, on the way to OSH this year we ended up clearing US Customs at Drummond Island, MI (Y66), a rinky dink little airport in the middle of no where. It is so far from civilization that there is no US Customs guy - they use two contract Customs guys to handle all the boat and aircraft traffic. I met both of them while I was there, and they were both very friendly and helpful. One guy has a reputation of being a lot quicker to show up than the other one though. And of course I had booked with the slow guy. But we only had to wait about 15 minutes for him to arrive, and he had the paperwork filled out in about 5 minutes, including buying the dreaded $25 sticker, so I can't really complain too much. So, how do we find out which fields get serviced by contract Customs officers? -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bobpaulo(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Like the idiot I am, I never bothered to blow out the tank after 6 months of use. Then when I did, the rust that came out was unreal. I have a 20 gal cambell-hausfield. I highly recommend one blow it out often. Bob in Ark doin wings (6). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about a 2 needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order to keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps either. But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you are in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an automatic buffer built in. Hope this helps. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Nellis Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Does the LRI compensate for the deployment of flaps? Does the LRI have an audible alert? Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Plainfield, IL RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps Stinson 108-2 N9666K > > Come to minnesota we will take you for a ride. Think about this though. PSS > anf LRI both use differential pressure. They both measure the same thing. > They both are on one wing, they both need to be in unobstructed airflow. How > do you like your display? Thats your choice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lewis > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:53 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > > It appears to be time for the annual LRI discussion. We hit this topic > in Nov 98, Oct 99, Mar 00, and now Aug 01. It's an interesting topic. > > I've found having an audible stall warning system to be invaluable. > On a couple of occasions I've allowed my attention to wander from > airspeed, got slow while down low (circling at the direction of the > tower, while looking for traffic), and had the stall warning activate. I > think it can be a life saver in "low and slow" situations. > > The Piper style stall tab warns of stall based on air flow change that > occurs before the wing stalls. True AoA systems (Rite Angle, PSS, > others), if equipped with an audible device, can sound warning of a > stall based on the fact that a given wing stalls at the same AoA, > regardless of airspeed. These are well understood principles. > > The situation isn't so clear with the LRI. Way back on 28 Nov 98 Peter > Bennett posted a well thought out mathematical analysis (available in > the archives, search for "pbennett & LRI") that questions whether the > LRI gives the same stall warning in all weight and G loading > conditions. Peter's analysis is straight forward, and convinced me that > the LRI web site's claims of "Reliable under all conditions of weight... > flap position... angle of bank" are suspect. To the best of my > knowledge, nobody has published rigorous flight test data to support > the LRI claims. One acquaintance of mine "rolled his own" LRI type > device (based on the drawings and info in the LRI patent) and > reported that at high G loads the unit gave an inappropriately high > indication of "lift reserve" when the aircraft stalled. That data (not > from a commercially produced LRI unit) seems to support Peter's 1998 > analysis. I'd sure like to see some actual flight test data showing LRI > indication vs stall speed across a broad range of aircraft weights and > G loading. > > By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall > warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple > of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web > site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. > > Tim Lewis > Just returned from OSH, with 260 hours on RV-6A N47TD > > ****** > Tim Lewis -- Fairfax, VA > RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99 > http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a > ****** > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Try John Fashing in Salida, Co. RV6A I think. We sold about 22 to RV guys at OSH. Soon we should have reports. Stay tuned. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Brian Lloyd reported on the flight testing he did on his PSS installation back in January 1999. Go to the archives and search on "AoA indicator report" (don't type the quote marks). Summary - once he had it calibrated he found it was accurate flaps up and flaps down, and at up to 4g (he didn't test at higher load factors). He installed the system in a CJ-6, not his RV, but I suspect the basic conclusions would be valid on RVs, if the system was properly calibrated, and there were no leaks in the plumbing. I'm not aware of any listers who reported detailed test results for the LRI, but I could have missed it. Some RV-8 builders report good stall warning buffet, so I'm not installing an AOA system in my plane yet. But, if I'm not happy with the natural stall warning after I get flying, I'll install one of the systems. If I decide to install an AOA system, I hope to bum a flight in an aircraft with each of the competing systems so I can judge for myself which one I like the best. I want good aural or tactile stall warning, far enough in advance of the stall so I can take a second to go "WTF?" and recover before actually stalling. I want the system to be accurate flaps up, down, and when pulling g. Some listers have expressed concerns about the possible effect of CG on the accuracy of AOA systems. The wing will stall at the same AOA regardless of the CG. So, any system that uses airflow or pressure around the wing to activate it should not be affected by CG. There has also been a discussion about the effect of ice. Once you have ice on the aircraft you can't trust the AOA systems to tell the truth, but you can't rely on the airspeed indicator as a measure of how far you are from stall either. Based on my experiences doing flight testing with Styrofoam simulated ice shapes on wings and tails (up to 1.5 inches of ice on the wing, and 3 inches on the tail), and also with 40 grit sandpaper on the leading edges, a small amount of ice can be even worse than a large amount of ice on some aircraft. But, in either case you should be OK if you add 20 mph to your normal approach speed. I would avoid the use of full flap, as some aircraft have a tailplane stall problem with full flap if there is ice on the HS leading edge. So, half flap would be a better bet. If in doubt, try a slow reduction to your planned approach speed at altitude, so see how the plane handles it (just like you did on your first flight). Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >Folks: > >I have not particularly enjoyed this thread, but one thing is true, a stall >warning device of some type needs to be on the plane. I will do my own >research about what type is best, but I would encourage a full range of test >numbers be published that takes into account various configurations, flight >attitudes, altitudes, etc. If such has been done, then I'd appreciate where >I can read about it and study it. > >The free market is obviously alive and well on the site, but given that we >are talking safety here, let's examine the performance numbers as openly as >we debate shipping charges and OSH specials. > >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: RobHickman(at)aol.com [mailto:RobHickman(at)aol.com] >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:51 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > >After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a >good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so >happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been >flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think >that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I >recognize >that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have > >250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall >warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the >price. > > >I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let > >you all know what I think of it. > >Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased > >insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. > >Rob Hickman >RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Here, here. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:12 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Folks: I have not particularly enjoyed this thread, but one thing is true, a stall warning device of some type needs to be on the plane. I will do my own research about what type is best, but I would encourage a full range of test numbers be published that takes into account various configurations, flight attitudes, altitudes, etc. If such has been done, then I'd appreciate where I can read about it and study it. The free market is obviously alive and well on the site, but given that we are talking safety here, let's examine the performance numbers as openly as we debate shipping charges and OSH specials. John -----Original Message----- From: RobHickman(at)aol.com [mailto:RobHickman(at)aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:51 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I recognize that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have 250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the price. I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let you all know what I think of it. Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. Rob Hickman RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Are Barstad" <abarstad(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Stall/Spin (humour - press delete)
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Just as a break to the serious (but interesting) AoA discussions, I used to work as an avionics tech on PBY's, Canso's (Canadian version of Catalina's) and the pilots always had funny stories to tell. The Canso's were very slow for its large size and only cruised around 110 (at 60 gph!) so the pilots joked about it. The Chief test pilot told me one day: "I was flying along at 3000 ft around 100 kts - appropriate speed & altitude for a PBY." "Then, I noticed this seagull flying right outside my window..." "It didn't bother mew at first but after a while I was upset that the seagull could go as fast as me... so I added power - 110 kts but the seagull was still there! Damn!!! More power - 115 kts, but the seagull wouldn't back off - this time take-off power. "The damn seagull is still there and the throttles are firewalled!". "Ahhh - here's an idea - I slowed down a bit at a time as I was watching the seagull. He was still at my side so I slowed down some more..." Finally, it happened!!! The seagull stalled and spun inn..." Are RV-8 Wings (fuse on order) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
You all could learn something from this man. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA After losing another friend in an RV accident I decided that an AOA was a good idea. Jerry VanGrunsven has the PSS AOA in his RV-6A and he is so happy with it that he is also installing one in his new 8A. Jerry has been flying RV's a long time and if he thinks he needs one what makes me think that I don't? I have always been very careful with my flying but I recognize that so have a lot of other people that are not here anymore and I only have 250 hours TT. There is a reason that most production airplanes have stall warning devices and it is not just because they wanted to increase the price. I should have the PSS AOA Professional installed this weekend and I will let you all know what I think of it. Fly safe - other peoples actions do effect us all, wether it be in increased insurance rates or family, friends, and public opinions of our flying. Rob Hickman RV-4 IO-360 CS & soon to be AOA equipped ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oil cooler size
Date: Aug 04, 2001
. > >I installed the largest Positech and have cooling problems. This cooler is >known to not be as efficient as the SW. Brian Denk did some good work on >this. > >However, At OSH, I visited with the Positech folks about my cooling >problems >and they said that they had heard about the problems on the RV's and had >re-designed their coolers to increase the airflow by 50%. They also >offered >to replace my cooler with the new design at no charge. Great news, Wes! Thanks for the effort on your behalf to speak with Positech directly at OSH. I certainly would like to have my Posi replaced with a new one. I won't install it...why bother...the Niagara is working fine. However, I could certainly offer it to one of the local builders. Or, save it for use on my next RV...the four seater. ;) Please do keep us informed if/when you receive a new cooler. If you need any support in your dealings with them, please send them my way. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD 240 hrs. Niagara + cool collar= oil temp in the green. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stall/Spin (humour - press delete)
Great timing, Are...classic! Paul --- Are Barstad wrote: > > > Just as a break to the serious (but interesting) AoA > discussions, > > I used to work as an avionics tech on PBY's, Canso's > (Canadian version of > Catalina's) and the pilots always had funny stories > to tell. The Canso's > were very slow for its large size and only cruised > around 110 (at 60 gph!) > so the pilots joked about it. > > The Chief test pilot told me one day: "I was flying > along at 3000 ft around > 100 kts - appropriate speed & altitude for a PBY." > "Then, I noticed this > seagull flying right outside my window..." "It > didn't bother mew at first > but after a while I was upset that the seagull could > go as fast as me... so > I added power - 110 kts but the seagull was still > there! Damn!!! More > power - 115 kts, but the seagull wouldn't back off - > this time take-off > power. "The damn seagull is still there and the > throttles are firewalled!". > "Ahhh - here's an idea - I slowed down a bit at a > time as I was watching the > seagull. He was still at my side so I slowed down > some more..." Finally, it > happened!!! The seagull stalled and spun inn..." > > Are > RV-8 Wings (fuse on order) > > > > through > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > Matronics! > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Thomas Mosher" <tmosher(at)gbronline.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
With all this talk about AOA systems and such, is it possible just to use a standard stall vane (i.e., Cessna type which you can flip with your finger) on an RV? I guess I'm one of the "old-type" pilots who only needs a decent instrument panel (airspeed, altimeter, VSI, T&B, and artificial horizon) rather than someone who needs the fancy stuff (i.e., moving map, AOA, etc). Tom N787RV (reserved) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:57 PM Subject: Re: RE: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > > The PSS kit can be installed as a retrofit easily since I already prepared > for plumbing it. After much consideration I have decided to finish my RV-8, > fly it and do some testing. If my RV-8's tail shakes before stall like Randy > Lervold, Brian Denk and Terry Burch described earlier in the 'tail shake' > thread, then I probably won't need anything. IF there is no shake and IF... > the people here that are installing the PSS or LRI system in their RV's find > that it really is a cat's behind, then I might buy it. > > > Are (and others), > Let me clarify one thing... the pre-stall tail shake only occurs, in my > plane at least, in 1G stalls. I will go out and do some accelerated stalls > this weekend to verify what I think I remember here. > > BTW, my informal survey of RV-8s that are flying reveals that 50-60% of them > exhibit the tail shake and 40-50% of them don't. I got into a very > interesting discussion standing around the RV area at Arlington with four > RV-8 flyers all at once. One of them said he had none at all, two of them > (including me) said that they had noticeable tail shake, and one described > his as "violent". The only other RV-8 that I've personally been up in was in > Florida and it was exactly like mine. Van's is working on this in their own > quiet way. I'm sure we'll know more about what is causing it, and whether it > needs to be addressed or not, within a few months. > > FWIW, > Randy Lervold > RV-8, N558RL, 89.1 hrs > www.rv-8.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
>Why depressurize? Well, I suspect your tank is made of steel. Add >moisture and oxygen and you get rust. At 130 psi above ambient >pressure you've got about 145 psi absolute pressure in the tank, or >about 10 times normal atmospheric pressure. So there is 10 times as >much oxygen, and it will rust 10 times as fast. If you view the >compressor tank as a throw away item, to be replaced once it rusts >through, then don't worry about depressurizing it. If you want it to >last as long as possible, then you should depressurize it after use. >The choice is yours. Either way it'll likely last to the end of your >project, unless you are a very slow builder. -- >Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) >Ottawa, Canada Don't mean to be argumentative but there is a flaw in this reasoning somewhere. My compressor tank bears a certification label dated 1939. (making it now 62 years old) My system runs at 175 PSI has 9 quick connects attached and has remained under this pressure constantly for the 22 years that I have owned it. I do not ever turn off the compressor or drain the air from the system. The compressor never starts unless I consume air.(no leaks) The previous owner of this compressor (a BMW dealership) also left it on and pressurized continuously for at least 15 years that I know of. This tank recently passed its periodic hydrostatic test. ( thereforre it hasn't rusted out) My point being that depressurizing your tank is going to have no discernable effect on its life , that a properly designed and installed system should not leak, and you do not need to go to the trouble of releasing the pressure or the expense of pumping it back up. (compressed air is one of the most expensive sources of energy and therefore should not be wasted unnecessarily). Bob McC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Bill--may I call you Bill? That's pure marketing whitewash. What you're saying is that you don't know what the "reserve lift" is when the flaps are down. There are so many different airfoils and flap types and degrees of setting, how can you assign an arbitrary "2 needle width" difference between all these conditions, which can vary from 3-4 mph to 10-11 mph. It's smoke and mirrors--admit it--you have have no documentation about calibrating "lift reserve"--whatever that is--how about giving us an aerodynamic definition?--to an airfoil with and without flaps. You may have the seeds of a good idea but you haven't tested and developed it to the degree that you're advertising, and, it appears that you want US to do that for YOU. Why not hand out a few freebies, matched by PSS, and have them installed on opposite wings of the same aircraft? Let's see who can get accurate and consistent data on flying a series of known AOA airspeeds: stall, max L/D(best power off glide), rate and angle of climb, best endurance (see L/D), etc. And, again, just what exactly is "lift reserve"? If you tell me it's how close you are to a stall, I can get that from the Wright Brothers' string-on-a-stick. How about the other AOA speeds? Boyd. Bill Geipel wrote: > > > The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA > that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about a 2 > needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order to > keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity > requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps either. > But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you are > in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an automatic > buffer built in. Hope this helps. > > Bill > c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Slanted Oil Cooler Mounting
Date: Aug 03, 2001
I have a Niagra 20014 which is a 7-row cooler. Also have Van's baffle kit. I want to mount the cooler on the left rear of the baffle and was hoping to just mount it flat against the baffle. The oil cooler mounting flange is about 1/2" too wide and interfers with the engine mount. In the baffle plans it recommends bending the baffle mounting flanges 25 degrees forward which will swing the oil cooler out farther from the engine mount. I did this and it worked great. The downside is that a wedge shape filler piece must be fabricated to fill the space created between the cooler and the baffle. I know other builders have done this and I have searched with no luck for pictures to get some ideas. Anyone recall the whereabouts of pictures or have any ideas? Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6..baffled by the cooler ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Not to mention the heat generated by running a compressor long enough to fill a large tank. Heat means condensation..INSIDE the tank. Or am I wrong? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:37 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: My new air compressor > > >Why depressurize? Well, I suspect your tank is made of steel. Add > >moisture and oxygen and you get rust. At 130 psi above ambient > >pressure you've got about 145 psi absolute pressure in the tank, or > >about 10 times normal atmospheric pressure. So there is 10 times as > >much oxygen, and it will rust 10 times as fast. If you view the > >compressor tank as a throw away item, to be replaced once it rusts > >through, then don't worry about depressurizing it. If you want it to > >last as long as possible, then you should depressurize it after use. > >The choice is yours. Either way it'll likely last to the end of your > >project, unless you are a very slow builder. > > -- > >Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > >Ottawa, Canada > > Don't mean to be argumentative but there is a flaw in this reasoning > somewhere. > My compressor tank bears a certification label dated 1939. (making it > now 62 years old) My system runs at 175 PSI has 9 quick connects > attached and has remained under this pressure constantly for the 22 > years that I have owned it. I do not ever turn off the compressor or > drain the air from the system. The compressor never starts unless I > consume air.(no leaks) > The previous owner of this compressor (a BMW dealership) also left it on > and pressurized continuously for at least 15 years that I know of. This > tank recently passed its periodic hydrostatic test. ( thereforre it > hasn't rusted out) My point being that depressurizing your tank is going > to have no discernable effect on its life , that a properly designed and > installed system should not leak, and you do not need to go to the > trouble of releasing the pressure or the expense of pumping it back up. > (compressed air is one of the most expensive sources of energy and > therefore should not be wasted unnecessarily). > > Bob McC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Shook" <billshook(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 04, 2001
There we go. Finally, someone asking for some definite answers...and a comparison no less. Unfortunately, I'm too ignorant to even pose a proper question on the AOA differences....but I knew....I just KNEW someone on this list was going to step up and hold some manufacturers feet to the flames. Now, lets just see who puts up. Thanks Boyd...I suspected it might be you. :-) Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:25 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > Bill--may I call you Bill? > > That's pure marketing whitewash. What you're saying is that you don't > know what the "reserve lift" is when the flaps are down. There are so > many different airfoils and flap types and degrees of setting, how can > you assign an arbitrary "2 needle width" difference between all these > conditions, which can vary from 3-4 mph to 10-11 mph. It's smoke and > mirrors--admit it--you have have no documentation about calibrating > "lift reserve"--whatever that is--how about giving us an aerodynamic > definition?--to an airfoil with and without flaps. > > You may have the seeds of a good idea but you haven't tested and > developed it to the degree that you're advertising, and, it appears that > you want US to do that for YOU. > > Why not hand out a few freebies, matched by PSS, and have them installed > on opposite wings of the same aircraft? Let's see who can get accurate > and consistent data on flying a series of known AOA airspeeds: stall, > max L/D(best power off glide), rate and angle of climb, best endurance > (see L/D), etc. > > And, again, just what exactly is "lift reserve"? If you tell me it's > how close you are to a stall, I can get that from the Wright Brothers' > string-on-a-stick. How about the other AOA speeds? > > Boyd. > > Bill Geipel wrote: > > > > > > The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA > > that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about a 2 > > needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order to > > keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity > > requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps either. > > But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you are > > in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an automatic > > buffer built in. Hope this helps. > > > > Bill > > c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Chipley" <craigchipley(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Why Don't those guys give some free ones for the EAA/CAFE guys to play with? >From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA >Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:25:47 -0400 > > >Bill--may I call you Bill? > >That's pure marketing whitewash. What you're saying is that you don't >know what the "reserve lift" is when the flaps are down. There are so >many different airfoils and flap types and degrees of setting, how can >you assign an arbitrary "2 needle width" difference between all these >conditions, which can vary from 3-4 mph to 10-11 mph. It's smoke and >mirrors--admit it--you have have no documentation about calibrating >"lift reserve"--whatever that is--how about giving us an aerodynamic >definition?--to an airfoil with and without flaps. > >You may have the seeds of a good idea but you haven't tested and >developed it to the degree that you're advertising, and, it appears that >you want US to do that for YOU. > >Why not hand out a few freebies, matched by PSS, and have them installed >on opposite wings of the same aircraft? Let's see who can get accurate >and consistent data on flying a series of known AOA airspeeds: stall, >max L/D(best power off glide), rate and angle of climb, best endurance >(see L/D), etc. > >And, again, just what exactly is "lift reserve"? If you tell me it's >how close you are to a stall, I can get that from the Wright Brothers' >string-on-a-stick. How about the other AOA speeds? > >Boyd. > >Bill Geipel wrote: > > > > > > The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA > > that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about >a 2 > > needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order >to > > keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity > > requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps >either. > > But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you >are > > in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an >automatic > > buffer built in. Hope this helps. > > > > Bill > > c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Thomas Mosher" <tmosher(at)gbronline.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Packages
Date: Aug 03, 2001
I'm not sure but it looks like you're paying about $500 for the wiring package for the first stack listed. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 11:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Avionics Packages > > If you're getting close to avionics, here is a cool webpage from a > company that offers ten radio stack packages. > > http://www.avionix.com/valuestacks.html > > The prices seem competitive as they all come pre-wired. That saves lots > of work that costs a bunch too. > > You have to let it load for awhile as it is a long page. I like the one > second from the bottom. Doubt I will be able to afford it though..... > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Thomas Mosher" <tmosher(at)gbronline.com>
Subject: RV's at Oshkosh
Date: Aug 03, 2001
Anyone notice that RV's took one and two in the awards for homebuilt-kit aircraft? Tom N787RV (reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know if Skybolt is still around?
> >I was interested in their fasteners for the cowl. I tried their webpage >www.skybolt.com without success. > >Don Mack >RV-6A Finishing >don(at)dmack.net >www.dmack.net I tried Google, and it came up with: http://www.airsport.com/skybolt.htm as well as the page you tried (which wasn't working for me either). But, I have no idea if they are still in business. Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2001
From: bob adams <pingobingo@moseslake-wa.com>
Subject: Angle of Attack
Hey, distinguished friends: I have acquired (thru eBay) an old Jaeger B-2 "Angle of Attack" which reads 0 to 30 degrees nose up or down, and has no connections to anything, the only thing on the back is a locking screw. I,m told they were used in WWII and were considered useful for gliders. Any body know what use this is for? Thanks, Bob Adams, -6A finishing stage. Maybe you could use this to determine the slope of the runway? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jody Villa" <jodyvilla(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: videos still available?
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Eddy, I emailed you yesterday regarding the video's. I need an address and method of paying for shipping if your still interested. If you aren't let me know so that I may give them to the next person in line. Thanks ************************************************** Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA ************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: EddyFernan(at)aol.com To: Jodyvilla(at)worldnet.att.net Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: videos still available? Please email or call my office toll free 877-792-8188 & let me know what you need from me. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ENewton57(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Subject: Re: Does anyone know if Skybolt is still around?
In a message dated 8/3/01 11:39:33 PM Central Daylight Time, khorton(at)cyberus.ca writes: > >I was interested in their fasteners for the cowl. I tried their webpage >www.skybolt.com without success. > >Don Mack >RV-6A Finishing >don(at)dmack.net >www.dmack.net >> FWIW I just went to http://www.skybolt.com/ and it works fine. I bought the camlocks for my cowling from them. They are really customer friendly but the camlocks are sure pricey (about $10 per hole for everything) Eric Newton - Long Beach, Mississippi RV-6A N57ME (Reserved) (mounting and rigging wings) http://www.ericsrv6a.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Bell" <dbell(at)manisteenational.com>
Subject: Re: Two Experiences
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Kevin, I'll have you know that that the rinky dink little airport in the middle of no where is in the prime of the golf in Michigan.....did you have your clubs? it could have been a great stayover! "The Rock" (golf cours name) on Drummond Island, built by Pizza magnet and former Detroit Tiger owner Tom Monohan is quite a course....next time you havta play it. Actually, the prime of golf is a little further south and on the west coast, look for the RV golf event next year here in Manistee, MI Doug Bell, PGA rv8 qb Too much golf, not enough work on plane "But mine will fly before Terri Jantzi new rocket" (Oshkosh bet between a current Canadian and an ex canadian) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Two Experiences > > > <-- Lots of good stuff removed --> > > >My conclusion is that Canadian Customs are user friendly and U. S. > >Customs are definitely NOT. Is U. S. Customs really intercepting drugs > >and saving our country from all evil? Is their negative reputation > >unjust? My first U. S. reentry in year 2000 was at Cleveland, Ohio, > >where I waited 45 minutes to give my $25 for the right to come home. > > > >Visit Canada...the people are great...as are the customs people! But be > >sure you have $25 in order to come home! > > > >Will Cretsinger, Arlington, Texas > > I have to admit my experiences with clearing US Customs in a light > aircraft have not been great either. But, on the way to OSH this > year we ended up clearing US Customs at Drummond Island, MI (Y66), a > rinky dink little airport in the middle of no where. It is so far > from civilization that there is no US Customs guy - they use two > contract Customs guys to handle all the boat and aircraft traffic. I > met both of them while I was there, and they were both very friendly > and helpful. One guy has a reputation of being a lot quicker to show > up than the other one though. And of course I had booked with the > slow guy. But we only had to wait about 15 minutes for him to > arrive, and he had the paperwork filled out in about 5 minutes, > including buying the dreaded $25 sticker, so I can't really complain > too much. > > So, how do we find out which fields get serviced by contract Customs officers? > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > Ottawa, Canada > http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Bill is my name. Lets try this, like I said to someone, our unit makes no compensation for flaps. Therefor when it is calibrated in the clean configuration there is an extra margine of stall protection that ocurs when the flaps are lowered. With a non electric unit, absolutely no power required, you can't make compensation for flaps. 65 reports we got from users said "between 1 and 2 needle widths difference. That is the only proof we have. The customers tell us. I try not to believe everybody but I certainly know how it works in my airplane and their report goes with mine. NASA mounted on the B-737 they flew for years. They said it did what it was supposed to do as we explained it. They actually used it. In fact an exciting visitor stopped by the booth this year at OSH, the pilot that flew it that boeing and at Cessna. Cessna tried it on a C-150. This same guy did the testing on it. Bruce Bohanan says it worked on the Exxon Tiger. I can only take their word for it. I admit I am not an enginneer. I do know however, what makes an airplane fly. (Money! (thats a joke)) Lift reserve, is just that amount of lift available as indicated on the gauge. Is that 10 units? 100 units? 45 knots? I don't know. What I know is that at an exact needle position, my wing departs. I know that at an exact needle position, I am at Vx. I do know that at an exact needle position, I am mushing and unable to hold altitude with the power available. It has been referred to as Margine above stall. This is what our product does. It will not tell you that you AOA is 6.5 units. It will not tell you that the critical AOA is 15 units. The aircraft manufacturers didn't bother to tell us what critical AOA was, they just install a stall speed warning device that blows at 2? 5? 10? knots above stall. (Margine above stall) If you want to see numbers, buy PSS. We are just giving you an accurste look at a simple needle. Accurste at any weight, any airspeed and any "G" loading. The wing stalls at the same AOA wstraight ahead or in a 60 degree bank (2g). We have it mounted on a military jet. We have done airwork upto 6g. It is still accurate. What I say is correct. It is conservative when you lower flaps. Correct? You wouldn't happen to have any suggestions as to who might receive one of thopse free-bees would you? Boeing tested it, Cessna tested it, Bruce Bohannan tested it, B.F. Goodrich tested it. If you will read it, and more accurately if I can find it, I will send you 6" of test reports. But would you take their word for it? Orville and Wilbur had the right Idea. The string of yarn worked great. I hope this helps explain our position. If not, my apologies. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Shook Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA There we go. Finally, someone asking for some definite answers...and a comparison no less. Unfortunately, I'm too ignorant to even pose a proper question on the AOA differences....but I knew....I just KNEW someone on this list was going to step up and hold some manufacturers feet to the flames. Now, lets just see who puts up. Thanks Boyd...I suspected it might be you. :-) Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:25 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA > > Bill--may I call you Bill? > > That's pure marketing whitewash. What you're saying is that you don't > know what the "reserve lift" is when the flaps are down. There are so > many different airfoils and flap types and degrees of setting, how can > you assign an arbitrary "2 needle width" difference between all these > conditions, which can vary from 3-4 mph to 10-11 mph. It's smoke and > mirrors--admit it--you have have no documentation about calibrating > "lift reserve"--whatever that is--how about giving us an aerodynamic > definition?--to an airfoil with and without flaps. > > You may have the seeds of a good idea but you haven't tested and > developed it to the degree that you're advertising, and, it appears that > you want US to do that for YOU. > > Why not hand out a few freebies, matched by PSS, and have them installed > on opposite wings of the same aircraft? Let's see who can get accurate > and consistent data on flying a series of known AOA airspeeds: stall, > max L/D(best power off glide), rate and angle of climb, best endurance > (see L/D), etc. > > And, again, just what exactly is "lift reserve"? If you tell me it's > how close you are to a stall, I can get that from the Wright Brothers' > string-on-a-stick. How about the other AOA speeds? > > Boyd. > > Bill Geipel wrote: > > > > > > The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA > > that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about a 2 > > needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order to > > keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity > > requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps either. > > But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you are > > in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an automatic > > buffer built in. Hope this helps. > > > > Bill > > c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 04, 2001
EAA and the FAA have a joint venture in a Glastar. The LRI is installed. Call them. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Chipley Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA Why Don't those guys give some free ones for the EAA/CAFE guys to play with? >From: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA >Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:25:47 -0400 > > >Bill--may I call you Bill? > >That's pure marketing whitewash. What you're saying is that you don't >know what the "reserve lift" is when the flaps are down. There are so >many different airfoils and flap types and degrees of setting, how can >you assign an arbitrary "2 needle width" difference between all these >conditions, which can vary from 3-4 mph to 10-11 mph. It's smoke and >mirrors--admit it--you have have no documentation about calibrating >"lift reserve"--whatever that is--how about giving us an aerodynamic >definition?--to an airfoil with and without flaps. > >You may have the seeds of a good idea but you haven't tested and >developed it to the degree that you're advertising, and, it appears that >you want US to do that for YOU. > >Why not hand out a few freebies, matched by PSS, and have them installed >on opposite wings of the same aircraft? Let's see who can get accurate >and consistent data on flying a series of known AOA airspeeds: stall, >max L/D(best power off glide), rate and angle of climb, best endurance >(see L/D), etc. > >And, again, just what exactly is "lift reserve"? If you tell me it's >how close you are to a stall, I can get that from the Wright Brothers' >string-on-a-stick. How about the other AOA speeds? > >Boyd. > >Bill Geipel wrote: > > > > > > The electronic display unit has audible. When flaps are extended the AOA > > that the wing stalls at is definitely different. The LRI will show about >a 2 > > needle width difference between stall with and without flaps. In order >to > > keep it cheap and bullet proof, the mechanical gauge has no electricity > > requirement. The electronic version has no compensation for flaps >either. > > But the indication at stall is minor. When the unit is calibrated, you >are > > in a clean configuration. So when flaps are lowered there is an >automatic > > buffer built in. Hope this helps. > > > > Bill > > c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
> >With all this talk about AOA systems and such, is it possible just to use a >standard stall vane (i.e., Cessna type which you can flip with your finger) >on an RV? > >I guess I'm one of the "old-type" pilots who only needs a decent instrument >panel (airspeed, altimeter, VSI, T&B, and artificial horizon) rather than >someone who needs the fancy stuff (i.e., moving map, AOA, etc). > >Tom Tim Lewis installed a stall vane on his RV-6A. Details are available at: http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm Take care, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Subject: Re: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
From: james freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net>
on 8/4/01 7:42 AM, Bill Geipel at czech6(at)amerytel.net wrote: > > Bill is my name. HI Bill. Let me preface this by emphasizing that I am not an aerodynamicist by profession or education, and there is a good chance I'm wrong, (but then again I'm not selling instrumnentation ;-)) As far as I can tell, the LRI, like the Wright Brothers' string, is a rough measure of AOA relative to the fuselage. It has the advantage of measuring, apparently repeatably , over a fairly wide range, allowing you to select a "target AOA" for different operations. This is an advantage over the leading edge vane type stall warner which only tells you if you are above or below a critical AOA. Now (getting dangerously out of my area of expertise here) as I understand it, two relevant things happen as you lower flaps. First, the lift coefficient of the airfoil is changed somewhat, along with increased drag. This varies with the design of the flap and the airfoil. Second, and I think being overlooked here, is that a trailing edge flap, like we have on most GA airplanes, effectively -increases- the angle of incidence of the wing relative to the fuselage when deployed. Think about this a minute. This is why flaps improve your visibility over the nose. This also makes the wing stall at a -lower- AOA relative to the fuse, unless the change in the lift coefficient is the more important effect > Try this--(at a safe altitude, after clearing turns, etc ): A 1G stall in level flight should occur a a very repeatable nose high attitude. Note this attitude, and, being very careful to maintain level, unaccelerated flight. try it again with flaps down. See where the nose is when it lets go. I don't have enough RV time (yet;->) to say for these airplanes, but IIRC in Cessnas with large, fowler flaps, the fuse AOA is lower. I think this may mean the LRI has -less- margin before stall, like any uncompensated AOA instrument > Lets try this, like I said to someone, our unit makes no compensation for > flaps. Therefor when it is calibrated in the clean configuration there is an > extra margine of stall protection that ocurs when the flaps are lowered. maybe not... > With a non electric unit, absolutely no power required, you can't make > compensation for flaps. (snip) agreed, this is both a strength and weakness > > What I say is correct. It is conservative when you lower flaps. Correct? > > > Orville and Wilbur had the right Idea. The string of yarn worked great. Yeah, but only until everybody else had a string, then it wasn't cool enough anymore, and they had to get more sophisticated in order to attract the chicks. James Freeman RV8Q finishing Sloooooowly > > I hope this helps explain our position. If not, my apologies. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
Hey Bob Ya overlook one important thing here. In those days things were build like brick sh*thouses. There is also a lot of difference in quality of industrial vs. home use. Yours sounds industrial. Nowadays, things are engineered to a T. and wall thicknesses are a lot less. I know of at least 2 airtanks which developed pinprick leaks. To be honest I cannot tell you if it was material defect or rusting through. Very scary, one got welded shut again. yeah yeah, a good welder can do this but it does not bode good for the rest of the tank.. kinda like a bunch of scrapnel flying formation in the form of an airtank if you catch my drift ;-) As for airleaks, you tend to get what you pay for, most cheaper fittings start to leak after some use. Gert Robert McCallum wrote: > > > >Why depressurize? Well, I suspect your tank is made of steel. Add > >moisture and oxygen and you get rust. At 130 psi above ambient > >pressure you've got about 145 psi absolute pressure in the tank, or > >about 10 times normal atmospheric pressure. So there is 10 times as > >much oxygen, and it will rust 10 times as fast. If you view the > >compressor tank as a throw away item, to be replaced once it rusts > >through, then don't worry about depressurizing it. If you want it to > >last as long as possible, then you should depressurize it after use. > >The choice is yours. Either way it'll likely last to the end of your > >project, unless you are a very slow builder. > > -- > >Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > >Ottawa, Canada > > Don't mean to be argumentative but there is a flaw in this reasoning > somewhere. > My compressor tank bears a certification label dated 1939. (making it > now 62 years old) My system runs at 175 PSI has 9 quick connects > attached and has remained under this pressure constantly for the 22 > years that I have owned it. I do not ever turn off the compressor or > drain the air from the system. The compressor never starts unless I > consume air.(no leaks) > The previous owner of this compressor (a BMW dealership) also left it on > and pressurized continuously for at least 15 years that I know of. This > tank recently passed its periodic hydrostatic test. ( thereforre it > hasn't rusted out) My point being that depressurizing your tank is going > to have no discernable effect on its life , that a properly designed and > installed system should not leak, and you do not need to go to the > trouble of releasing the pressure or the expense of pumping it back up. > (compressed air is one of the most expensive sources of energy and > therefore should not be wasted unnecessarily). > > Bob McC > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jody Villa" <jodyvilla(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap Videos
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Ok Henry, since I have not heard back from Eddy Fernan you were the next in line as far as time received on your response. Email me privately with your address and I'll get them out to on Monday. ************************************************** Jody Villa Tewksbury, NJ USA ************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: <N8335E(at)aol.com> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheap Videos > Jody: > > If the tapes are not spoken for I'll take them. Just let me know what the shipping charges are. > > Henry Hochberg > 18022 159 ave ne > woodinville, wa 98072 > > thanks. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel System Plumbing Question Answer-Long
Garry, Thanks for the info. I'm glad to see that you've tested the effect of water on the filters you sell. I won't be using those filters, because I've got the Airflow performance pump and filter, and an Andair gascolator. The fuel goes from the selector, to the gascolator in the wing root, to the pump, to the filter and then to the engine. The gascolator will take care of the water, and keep crud out of the pump. The filter will catch anything that the pump decides to shed. This system differs from the one that Van recommends, so I'll be doing an extensive series of fuel flow tests on the ground, with minimum fuel, and at a high pitch attitude. I'll be staying over head the airport for the first several hours. I'll be doing tests to see what happens if I manage to suck a tank dry. Eustace Bowhay has a similar fuel system configuration - he reports that it takes about 15 seconds to get the engine running again if you suck a tank dry. Are you in the RV Yeller Pages? If not, that might be a way to get a bit more exposure. See: http://www.sound.net/~hartmann/yelrpage.htm Take care, Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >Kevin, >The testing you suggest I might won't to do, were done. In 1979 and >again in 2000. >In 1979, after soak testing for 3 months, and ground flow tests >using combinations >of fuel, fuel / water and water only, a Fram (I believe it was a G-1) was >installed on the prototype Q2. This filter was replaced (as well as almost the >entire aircraft) at 260 hr., after Gene Shehan crashed landed the Q2 >after 1/2 the >propeller blade departed the aircraft during a propeller test. >When the Q2 was rebuilt the local auto parts store in Mojave was a >Wix reseller, so >a Wix 33001 >( equivalent to the G-1) was chosen. No testing was performed at that time >regarding the water handling abilities of the Wix filter. >This filter was replaced at approx. 620 hr. (360 hr. in service). >The replacement >was in service approx. 300 hr., until the aircraft ws sold in 1984. >Periodically >small droplets of water could be see in these filters. When this happened the >filter was removed, the water was dumped out and the filter returned >to service. >When planing my "6"s fuel system in 2000, I again utilized a Wix >filter ( part # >3303 the last 3 designates a 3/8th fuel line). The same testing was >performed as >was performed in 1979. Only this time the fuel, fuel/water and water >only, were >sucked through the filter by a BD 2 ounce syringe, instead of using >a funnel and >pouring the fluid into it as on the first test. In addition, prior >to performing >these tests a filter was submerged in a jar of water for almost 6 months. When >removed from the jar the filter flowed fuel as fast >as it had prior to the test. >Like many things in aviation circles, the water issue with these >filters is another >urban myth. At least with the Fram or Wix products. >There may be some basis for the myth, such as some one may have used >a econo "no >name brand" filter that did react badly with water. >I will continue to trust the Fram and Wix products, however, I chose >to use the Wix >product because the case is clear, which makes it easy to spot any >contamination in >the fuel while flying, and that and the pump protection is an >"improvement on Van's >design". >Lets not forget the pump manufacturer says " to protect the pump >install an inline >fuel filter between the fuel tank and the pump inlet." > > >Kevin Horton wrote: > >> >> Garry, >> >> You might want to run some tests before selecting an in line filter. >> I've been told that many inline filters won't flow anything at all if >> they get contaminated with water. Water in the fuel is a fairly >> common problem in aircraft, so you need to have a fuel system design >> that is tolerant of it. > >SNIP > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: WEEKEND SEMINAR - Need list server relay
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I used o participate in about a dozen list-server activities but he e-mail burden became too much. Matt Dralle graciously offered relief with his support of the Aero-Electric List. I would sincerely appreciate it if the folks who frequent the Aero-Electric List could relay the following information to other amateur built airplane list-servers on which they participate: Thanks! ----- Electrical Systems Weekend Seminar ----------- The next weekend seminar we're presenting starts two weeks from tomorrow, August 18, in Racine, WI. Dee and I will be driving from Wichita and we'd like a chance to meet many of you and talk about your project. We're meeting on the John H. Batten airport. Some of you may be able to fly in daily and join us for some down and dirty electro-speak. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Racine.html for times, location and local hotel information. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------------- ( "The Wright brothers flew right through the ) ( smoke screen of impossibility." ) ( Charles F. Kettering ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor(at)msn.com>
Subject: F-668
Date: Aug 04, 2001
For you "Tip-up guys"! Does the bottom of the side flange (below the longeron) of the 668 sub panel get riveted to the side skin? 426-3's or 426-4's? Tommy Walker 6A Fuselage @ the WeaselWorks in Ridgetop, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
I suspect that if you checked with ten automotive or industrial shops that use compressed air, at least nine of them would leave the system pressurized all the time. From the looks of some of the compressor tanks I have seen in those types of shop, many of the compressors have been in service a loooooooooong time! :-) Sam Buchanan =============================== > > >Why depressurize? Well, I suspect your tank is made of steel. Add > >moisture and oxygen and you get rust. At 130 psi above ambient > >pressure you've got about 145 psi absolute pressure in the tank, or > >about 10 times normal atmospheric pressure. So there is 10 times as > >much oxygen, and it will rust 10 times as fast. If you view the > >compressor tank as a throw away item, to be replaced once it rusts > >through, then don't worry about depressurizing it. If you want it to > >last as long as possible, then you should depressurize it after use. > >The choice is yours. Either way it'll likely last to the end of your > >project, unless you are a very slow builder. > > -- > >Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine) > >Ottawa, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Todd Wiechman" <toddwiechman(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-6 FOR SALE
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Tail kit, wing kit, and fuselage kit. Tail complete minus fiberglass, firewall, spars, and F-604 completed. Everything primered inside. A&P IA built in Wichita Kansas. First $8300.00. Please contact me online or offline at 316-721-5670 or 316-210-5670(cell) and ask for Todd. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Todd Wiechman" <toddwiechman(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Nearly Complete Rv-4 and O-320 For Sale
Date: Aug 04, 2001
RV-4 Project For Sale. Fuselage on gear and finished other than riveting on turtledeck and putting in your intruments and interior.Interior is already painted as is the engine mount and gear legs. Wings just need top skins riveted on. Tail is finished. Finishing kit included. Also included is a Lycoming O-320-E2D with only 1976 TT. Engine taken off of Cessna 172 for upgrade to 180HP. I personally checked the compression with the engine on the airplane, and all cylinders are in the high 70's. Magnetos are less than 60 hours old. Logs included. First $23,000 will take all of this. This will not last long. Please call 316-721-5670(home) or 316-210-5670(cell) and ask for Todd. Located in Wichita Kansas. I will have some pictures to send if you give me a call. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Frank Smidler <smidler(at)dcwi.com>
Subject: Microair
At Oshkosh I spoke with both the EDO representative (US distributor for Microair) and Nigel from Microair (at the Jabaru booth) and came away with the following information and impresions. 1. The new Microair 760-8.33 was very impressive hand has much nicer controls then the present 760 model (i.e. nice lighted push buttons in place of small toggle switches). I am still trying to decide if this, the mono intercom and higher transmit output is worth the extra cost over the original Microair 760. 2. The Transponder is very nice and has the same look, feel and push button controls as the 760-8.33. 3. The Transponder has passed FAA certification but they are awaiting final paper work prior to shipment to the US. They expect it to be available in approximately 2 months. 4. With thier experience in how long it took to get the Transponder certified they don't expect the 760-8.33 radio to be certified until early next year. 5. The ability of US buyers to purchase Microair equipment at lower prices from an Australian distributer has been stopped in order to protect thier US dealer network. They threadend to terminate the dealership if they continued to sell in the US. If you did buy from overseas you may have to send it back overseas for servicing although I do not know how the can tell were it was aquired from. 6. In the past the Microair 760 was only available from a few outlets. Now every major avionics retailer is marketing it and had a display of the old radio and new transponder. I only saw the new radio at the EDO display. Frank Smidler RV-6 in Indiana Jim Jewell wrote: > > > I was told that Microair would be at Oshkosh with their new flat pack radio > stackable transmitter and transponder. > > Can anyone provide us with information and or opinions regarding Microair at > or not at Oshkosh? > > If their new flat stack systems are on the market is anyone using this > equipment as yet? > > Jim - in Kelowna ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)amerytel.net>
Subject: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Thank you. You are correct. When the flaps are lowered, the air pressure that all the available units are measuring, changes many feet in front of the wing. I tend to think that we sense, through the probe, this pressure change. We have know way at present to know this for certain. But I think because the indication at the critical AOA when we lower flaps is only 1-2 needle widths consitantly, that again, we are indicating properly. When you lower the flaps you are effectively building a new wing. Some of the AOA units on the market have the ability to calibrate clean and with flaps. The LRI only calibrates clean. One thing for sure, when you get down to this point with or without flaps, your problems started a few knots earlier in the day. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of james freeman Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 8:56 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Warning - LRI - AoA on 8/4/01 7:42 AM, Bill Geipel at czech6(at)amerytel.net wrote: > > Bill is my name. HI Bill. Let me preface this by emphasizing that I am not an aerodynamicist by profession or education, and there is a good chance I'm wrong, (but then again I'm not selling instrumnentation ;-)) As far as I can tell, the LRI, like the Wright Brothers' string, is a rough measure of AOA relative to the fuselage. It has the advantage of measuring, apparently repeatably , over a fairly wide range, allowing you to select a "target AOA" for different operations. This is an advantage over the leading edge vane type stall warner which only tells you if you are above or below a critical AOA. Now (getting dangerously out of my area of expertise here) as I understand it, two relevant things happen as you lower flaps. First, the lift coefficient of the airfoil is changed somewhat, along with increased drag. This varies with the design of the flap and the airfoil. Second, and I think being overlooked here, is that a trailing edge flap, like we have on most GA airplanes, effectively -increases- the angle of incidence of the wing relative to the fuselage when deployed. Think about this a minute. This is why flaps improve your visibility over the nose. This also makes the wing stall at a -lower- AOA relative to the fuse, unless the change in the lift coefficient is the more important effect > Try this--(at a safe altitude, after clearing turns, etc ): A 1G stall in level flight should occur a a very repeatable nose high attitude. Note this attitude, and, being very careful to maintain level, unaccelerated flight. try it again with flaps down. See where the nose is when it lets go. I don't have enough RV time (yet;->) to say for these airplanes, but IIRC in Cessnas with large, fowler flaps, the fuse AOA is lower. I think this may mean the LRI has -less- margin before stall, like any uncompensated AOA instrument > Lets try this, like I said to someone, our unit makes no compensation for > flaps. Therefor when it is calibrated in the clean configuration there is an > extra margine of stall protection that ocurs when the flaps are lowered. maybe not... > With a non electric unit, absolutely no power required, you can't make > compensation for flaps. (snip) agreed, this is both a strength and weakness > > What I say is correct. It is conservative when you lower flaps. Correct? > > > Orville and Wilbur had the right Idea. The string of yarn worked great. Yeah, but only until everybody else had a string, then it wasn't cool enough anymore, and they had to get more sophisticated in order to attract the chicks. James Freeman RV8Q finishing Sloooooowly > > I hope this helps explain our position. If not, my apologies. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bobdz" <bobdz(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Docken Spray Gun
Date: Aug 04, 2001
> tool suppliers and can't find anyone who sells the Docken spray gun. I believe I got mine from Aircraft Spruce ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com>
Subject: Microair
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Frank, What's the price of the transponder? I did buy my direct and saved about $200.oo after all was said and done. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Smidler <smidler(at)dcwi.com> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 9:25 AM Subject: RV-List: Microair > > At Oshkosh I spoke with both the EDO representative (US distributor for Microair) and Nigel from > Microair (at the Jabaru booth) and came away with the following information and impresions. > > 1. The new Microair 760-8.33 was very impressive hand has much nicer controls then the present 760 > model (i.e. nice lighted push buttons in place of small toggle switches). I am still trying to > decide if this, the mono intercom and higher transmit output is worth the extra cost over the > original Microair 760. > > 2. The Transponder is very nice and has the same look, feel and push button controls as the > 760-8.33. > > 3. The Transponder has passed FAA certification but they are awaiting final paper work prior to > shipment to the US. They expect it to be available in approximately 2 months. > > 4. With thier experience in how long it took to get the Transponder certified they don't expect the > 760-8.33 radio to be certified until early next year. > > 5. The ability of US buyers to purchase Microair equipment at lower prices from an Australian > distributer has been stopped in order to protect thier US dealer network. They threadend to > terminate the dealership if they continued to sell in the US. If you did buy from overseas you may > have to send it back overseas for servicing although I do not know how the can tell were it was > aquired from. > > 6. In the past the Microair 760 was only available from a few outlets. Now every major avionics > retailer is marketing it and had a display of the old radio and new transponder. I only saw the new > radio at the EDO display. > > Frank Smidler > RV-6 in Indiana > > Jim Jewell wrote: > > > > > > I was told that Microair would be at Oshkosh with their new flat pack radio > > stackable transmitter and transponder. > > > > Can anyone provide us with information and or opinions regarding Microair at > > or not at Oshkosh? > > > > If their new flat stack systems are on the market is anyone using this > > equipment as yet? > > > > Jim - in Kelowna > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Robertson" <gordon(at)safemail.com>
Subject: Stall warning switch
Date: Aug 04, 2001
Neat. Is the RV-8 wing the same as the RV-6? Gordon Robertson RV8-fuse By the way, builders can make and install a Piper-style audible stall warning system for the cost of a switch, some aluminum, and a couple of small screws and bolts. Pictures and measurements are at my web site, http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a/stall.htm. Tim Lewis Just returned from OSH, with 260 hours on RV-6A N47TD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Nightmare city...
Builders nightmare... your sons finding baby mice crawling from your stored wings..... Took all apart, seems so far, they nested in the styrofoam under the leading edge. I had put a layer of plastic between the leading edge and the styro. Guess I got lucky the mice were not more enterprising than they were !! Did not find anything (yet) inside the wings.... Gert -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Canadians: RV + house insurance
> > Here in British Columbia I verbally asked my house insurance agent if our > RV-6 would be covered under contents during construction in the shop at the > rear of the separate garage. The answer was yes, as long as it wasn't a > business venture and the aircraft was for our personal use. I got the same answer. My insurer is BCAA. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: My new air compressor
>(kinda like a bunch of scrapnel flying formation in the form of an >airtank if you catch my drift ;-) >As for airleaks, you tend to get what you pay for, most cheaper fittings >start to leak after some use. >Gert Gert; I catch your drift. I sure wouldn't want to be the one using that tank! Or worse yet the innocent bystander when that schrapnel decides to take up a more random orientation. As for getting what you pay for; most definatly, and I tend to buy the best so that I don't ever have to buy it again. I also strive to make perfection my goal in whatever I do as well as I don't like doing (most) things twice either. Bob McC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2001
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Oops Rivets
Van's has Oops rivets. I ordered some this past Wednesday. I found them on Van's web store site, but they would only accept orders in one pound quantities. I ordered by phone, and they are available in .01 lb. increments (that's one one hundredths of a pound) Charlie Brame RV-6AQB, finishing canopy San Antonio ----------------------------------- > From: gert > rv-list > Subject: RV-List: Oops rivets > > > Hmm, went to try and order some more oops rivets from Van's, the > NAS1097AD3-3.5 and cohorts. They are not on their website anymore. > They still seem to have the NAS1097AD4-X.X series > > tried Aircraft Spruce, no luck either. Avery seems to be out of the > rivet business also. Wicks search engine came up blank. > > I got some left but would like to refill the bin so to say. > > > Anybody know a place to buy NAS1097AD3 rivets in quanteties less than 1 > lbs ?? > > Thanks > > Gert > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 >


August 02, 2001 - August 04, 2001

RV-Archive.digest.vol-lh