RV-Archive.digest.vol-pc

March 27, 2004 - April 01, 2004



      
      
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From: N223RV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Subject: Altrak Question
For those flying with an Altrak: Did you hook the module into the static system or did you just leave it open? The manufacturer directions indicate it can be done either way and I'm looking for what other people are doing. Thanks! -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 Flying N213RV RV-10 Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Hi Walt, Just a quick thought....have you flown your plane during the "warmer" months? I'm not bein sarcastic, the only reason ask this, is that nicely warmed up and hot IO's (on warm days) can have a tendency to run rough at low RPM's due to the fuel boiling before it reaches the injector. This usually only happens with low fuel flow and goes away at higher RPM's and Fuel flows becuase their is cooler fuel to the injectors and more air moving through the cowling. At first glance I wouldn't worry, but I'd make sure you have firesleeve on all the fuel lines, especially the line from the servo to the spider (that will help), and the line from the engine driven pump to the servo covered in firesleeve also. Just my 2 cents, but I notice this phenomenon (IO-360) also during the warmer summer months. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed up. I noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing above about 1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture adjustment maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture lever is brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle mixture problem (I think). Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
I use these. http://www.quiettechnologies.com/index_002.htm Bridge thickness: 0" - Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: thomas a. sargent [mailto:sarg314(at)earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:09 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > --> > > I am finally at the point where I can raise and lower a (nearly) > finished tip-up canopy AND can install the seat cushions just > delivered > to me from D.J. Lauritsen. (She does nice work, BTW.) I'm > very normal > size - about 5' 10" and was surprised at how little room there is > between the top of my head and the canopy. Probably less than 2 > inches. I certainly wouldn't want to sit lower than this for > visibility > reasons. With D.J.'s booster cushion installed, there's less than an > inch, but I like the visibility. (I remember that Van's tips for > landing an RV advise pilots to sit as high in the saddle as > possible.) > This was all done with the seat all the way back, which helps a bit. > > I then looked at my old David Clark headset and realized it would > definitely be rubbing against the canopy because the "bridge" > piece that > goes across the top of my head is more than an inch thick. The > references in the archives to headroom seem to mostly be from > people who > haven't picked which plane to build yet. > > So for those of you who are flying, here's the question: Do you use > headsets with very thin bridges? Which ones? Or do you all have > scratches on your canopies above your head? > > On the plus side, a low canopy is probably one the reasons > these things > go so fast. There's lots of compromises in an airplane design. > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy > > > =========== > Matronics Forums. > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: W&B
vansairforce Hi all... I decided to weigh my -8A again after the upgrades I just did... When I weighed it after I built it I had some temporary seats installed, and did not have the wheel pants and gear leg fairing fairings installed.....here's what I got: Empty weight without wheel pants and fairings: 996 lbs Empty weight with wheel pants and fairings sitting on the wings and cowl: 1005 lbs After a year and a half and the upgrades: Empty weight now with interior, all fairings, new panel, and heavy starter: 1029 lbs Still pretty light I think! I am going to be install new "H" pistons in the next couple weeks, along with a light weight starter. I am going to weight everything and redo the W&B accordingly and will post the results... -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Applying carb heat will richen the mixture a little. Sounds like you may be a little lean on the idle mixture so a quick and easy way to verify that would be to put on the carb heat and see if that improves things. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed up. I noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing above about 1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture adjustment maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture lever is brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle mixture problem (I think). Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Injected engines don't have carb heat, they have an alternate air supply. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kraut Subject: RE: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem Applying carb heat will richen the mixture a little. Sounds like you may be a little lean on the idle mixture so a quick and easy way to verify that would be to put on the carb heat and see if that improves things. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed up. I noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing above about 1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture adjustment maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture lever is brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle mixture problem (I think). Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Good point. Well, it would have a a quick and easy way to check the mixture if it had a carb! Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Subject: RE: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem Injected engines don't have carb heat, they have an alternate air supply. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kraut Subject: RE: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem Applying carb heat will richen the mixture a little. Sounds like you may be a little lean on the idle mixture so a quick and easy way to verify that would be to put on the carb heat and see if that improves things. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed up. I noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing above about 1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture adjustment maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture lever is brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle mixture problem (I think). Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Altrak Question
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
I hooked mine up to ships static. In hind site, I would not. I have had my static get water in it in heavy rain and clog the system. Delivering erroneous results while IFR. Yuk!. Has happened to me twice and neither time was any fun partial panel woth static blocked with a drop of water. I have since installed a quick pull device to vent ships static to the cockpit. My fix on that is in the archives. Simple I have a small piece of r/c fuel line with an r/c bulkhead fitting, 1/8 inch. Through the panel. When I want an alternate static, pull it off and presto, venting to cabin. But I do not think there is any up side to connecting the Altrak to ships static. There is a down side to doing so as my experience dictates. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N223RV(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: Altrak Question For those flying with an Altrak: Did you hook the module into the static system or did you just leave it open? The manufacturer directions indicate it can be done either way and I'm looking for what other people are doing. Thanks! -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 Flying N213RV RV-10 Empennage = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N67BT(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Subject: Re: Altrak Question
I asked the folks at TruTrak about this and they said that the accuracy is better with the static connected. As I recall the difference was plus or minus 20 feet. I could be off there. Bob Trumpfheller RV7A http://users.aol.com/n67bt (baggage compartment update) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Tom: I will give you my humble opinion on canopy clearance. Background information on myself, I am 6'4" a Bubba size frame, tall in the waist flying a RV-6, my first RV-6 was a tip up canopy, my solution was use the back hinge position and do not use the seatback upper securing attachment, let the back of the seat rest on the cross channel. By doing this it gives you a slightly recline position and for me that give about 1" clearance using a David Clark headset. I did not notice and rubbing of canopy, but in turburelent air you must keep the shoulder Harness snug or the head could hit canopy. On my present RV-6A with a sliding canopy I have about the same clearance as the tip up but it seems the seat back is slightly forward, not as comfortable as the tip up position. The seat cushion is the normal 1" temple foam, but the back rest has minimum thickness. with your height it should be a piece of cake, but you might need to shop for a head set that does not have such a thick headband. Harvey Sigmon RV-6A N602RV ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > I am finally at the point where I can raise and lower a (nearly) > finished tip-up canopy AND can install the seat cushions just delivered > to me from D.J. Lauritsen. (She does nice work, BTW.) I'm very normal > size - about 5' 10" and was surprised at how little room there is > between the top of my head and the canopy. Probably less than 2 > inches. I certainly wouldn't want to sit lower than this for visibility > reasons. With D.J.'s booster cushion installed, there's less than an > inch, but I like the visibility. (I remember that Van's tips for > landing an RV advise pilots to sit as high in the saddle as possible.) > This was all done with the seat all the way back, which helps a bit. > > I then looked at my old David Clark headset and realized it would > definitely be rubbing against the canopy because the "bridge" piece that > goes across the top of my head is more than an inch thick. The > references in the archives to headroom seem to mostly be from people who > haven't picked which plane to build yet. > > So for those of you who are flying, here's the question: Do you use > headsets with very thin bridges? Which ones? Or do you all have > scratches on your canopies above your head? > > On the plus side, a low canopy is probably one the reasons these things > go so fast. There's lots of compromises in an airplane design. > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Ooops.....you are right. I just took a quick look and missed it because my friend who pointed it out is an A&P. I took a second, longer look this morning and it does indeed have a blade pitot. Sorry for the misinformation. I still think it would be cool though :) Evan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brooks" <BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > Are you sure the hole is for pitot? The Katana has a hole in the leading > edge for stall indication. The Pitot is a blade under the wing. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
The placement of the pitot tube in the flow field around the airplane should not matter much. According to theory, any local increase in the velocity of the air (due to the shape of the wing, for instance) will cause a equivalent decrease in local static pressure so the total (static plus dynamic) pressure will remain unchanged. If this is compared to an accurate static pressure source, the difference is then dynamic pressure which is then fed to an ASI or whatever to show an airspeed indication. The reason for the long, skinny, forward-projecting pitot tubes on some aircraft is to move the static vents on the pitot head clear of the flow field and get an accurate static pressure reading. If the static pressure is sensed elsewhere, then no need for this. Look at an F-86 sometime, the pitot tube is buried inside the engine intake duct and works fine (some models anyway). Jim Oke RV-3, RV-6A Wpg, MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net> Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > A question for those of you in the know....I was looking at a Diamond aircraft this morning and a friend pointed out that the pitot tube is completly hidden in the leading edge of the wing...just a 1/4 hole!? Can this be done on an RV wing? It would be cool to have no pitot sticking out in the wind, but I dont know if the front of the leading edge is undisturbed air. It certainly is as it passes over the leading edge. Instinct tells me that the air pressure would be changed right at the leading edge and the airspeed readings would be inaccurate....but Diamond does it. Hmmmmmm any thoughts? > Thanks ...Evan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Altrak Question
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Mike: On my RV-6A I mounted my Altrak controller in the aft tailcone close to the servo and left it open to the static air, works fine but caution when the cabin heat is pulled on as the controller senses the change. If you plan on using the A/C for IFR they recommended to hock to static system. Harvey Sigmon RV-6A N602RV ----- Original Message ----- From: <N223RV(at)aol.com> Subject: RV-List: Altrak Question > > For those flying with an Altrak: > > Did you hook the module into the static system or did you just leave it open? > The manufacturer directions indicate it can be done either way and I'm > looking for what other people are doing. > > Thanks! > > -Mike Kraus > N223RV RV-4 Flying > N213RV RV-10 Empennage > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343(at)bresnan.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
I am 5'6". I also have DJ seats with the booster and the child cushion. At first I only used the booster, but was not making the best landings. I then tried the child booster cushion and my landings greatly improved. I still have about 1" clearance between my head and the canopy. I have bumped my head 2 or 3 times in very turbulent air. Really not too much of a problem in the seatbelt and harnesses are sinched down. Van is correct in assesment of sitting a tall as possible. John Danielson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cory Emberson" <bootless(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Santa Maria CA Flying (April 30-May 2)
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Hello everyone! With Matt Dralle's blessing (thank you, Matt!), I'm pleased to post this announcement for a terrific aviation fly-in weekend. SMXgig (in Santa Maria, CA) has become the year's largest face-to-face get-together of electronically networked aviators. We hope you'll plan to attend because we expect this year's gig to be the best ever. People come from all over the country (and sometimes overseas) to attend, and most of the sessions qualify for FAA Wings cards. The dates are 4/30-5/2/04 (Friday-Sunday) - it's a lot of fun, and a great chance for pilots from all over to mingle and share aviation stories, ideas, etc. The announcement below contains most of the crucial information, and you can get the rest from the website (www.smxgig.org). If you have any questions at all, just let me know, and thanks! ~~Cory Emberson KHWD >>> NOTICE TO AIRMEN! <<< Announcing the Sixteenth Annual SMXgig to be held on April 30 - May 2, 2004 at the Radisson on the Santa Maria (CA) Airport (aka SMX) www.smxgig.org SMXgig will be April 30 - May 2, 2004, at the Santa Maria Radisson. This year, our featured speaker after Friday night's dinner will be Rod Machado! "MACH 2 WITH MACHADO" is the byline Rod Machado has earned for his rapid fire delivery at his lively safety seminars and keynote speeches. His programs are information-packed, energetic, and humorous. He has spoken in all fifty of the United States and in Europe sharing his fresh approach to aviation education. If you can make it, please do. It's going to be pretty special. More information and the announcement/ registration info is available at www.smxgig.org You may also contact me by email at: cory(at)smxgig.org. All technical sessions will be held in the Enterprise Ballroom at the SMX Radisson. Each session will last about an hour. We schedule four tech sessions on Saturday morning, and four on Sunday morning. Most of the speakers are set (I'm still firming up a couple of slots - I'm working on a session about Experimentals): MIKE BUSCH - The Art and Science of Troubleshooting Your A frequently, that person is you. That's particularly true of problems that occur only in-flight and/or are intermittent. This session offers methodology for troubleshooting aimed at aircraft owners who aren't A&Ps. ED WILLIAMS - GPS - How It Works, and How to Work It Ed is a nuclear physicist working at Lawrence Livermore Labs. Ed does a remarkable job of making physics phun! BRENT BLUE, M.D. - Pilot Medicals: How to Avoid Problems with the FAA Brent is an AME Advocate, who specializes in helping the tough cases renew their medicals. He's a former member of EAA's medical advisory committee. DOUG RITTER - Equipping Yourself To Survive - Personal Survival Gear for Pilots Doug is a survival evangelist, personally driven to help pilots live through whatever comes next. www.equipped.org PAUL MILLNER - The Future of Avgas Paul works with ChevronTexaco, and is right in the middle of the industry developments regarding our fuel of choice. MARY DUFFY & UWE LEMKE - Flying in Europe Mary and Uwe are a Scot and a German who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, but return "home" often. As always, each qualifying session will get you a WINGS Safety Session card. Our Saturday evening event should be a delicious one! At 5:45 p.m., the BFUB (Big Fat Ugly Bus) will arrive at the Santa Maria Radisson to bring us to the Far Western Tavern for dinner in beautiful Guadalupe (www.farwesterntavern.com). DOLLARS AND CENTS Just as in previous years, there will be one flat all-encompassing "gig" fee that covers all events that involve significant out-of-pocket costs for the organizers. The fee is $160 per person, and will cover: - Friday afternoon welcome party - Friday evening dinner banquet - Saturday and Sunday tech sessions - Saturday afternoon lunch - Saturday evening dinner at the Far Western Tavern in Guadalupe - Meeting rooms and coffee service at the Santa Maria Radisson - Transportation to (and from) the Far Western Tavern Lodging at the SMX Radisson will cost $89.00/night for either a single or double room, which is far below the regular hotel room rate. Be sure you check in as a SMXgig attendee and get the special rate. We have our definitive preference listed with the hotel for rampside rooms - early registration can only help, but of course, the rampside rooms are subject to availability depending on how many existing guests are in those rooms. You do not need to register with the hotel - just give me your preferences, and I will take care of the reservations. Important: This year, our final rooming lists are due to the hotel on April 11, 2004 (the even of Sun 'n Fun), which will guarantee space and the group rate. The hotel will accept additional room reservations after that, on a space- and rate-available basis. They will try their best to accommodate us after that date, but the hotel is already sold out for the weekend. The website (www.smxgig.org) has detailed information about the schedule, meals, hotel accommodations, and online registration. If you'd like your own announcement/registration emailed to you, or have any other questions, just let me know. (cory(at)smxgig.org or bootless(at)earthlink.net ). Thanks, and see you there! best, Cory Emberson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Ok, so if I understand correctly, a hidden pitot with the front flush with the leading edge and a static source on the side of the fuselage should work just fine. (All theory of course) So the next question would be....if I figure out how to heat the pitot with an element like the one in my standard heated pitot.....is this a problem in a confined space? We are no longer in 200 mph wind. How are these things thermally regulated? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Re: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > The placement of the pitot tube in the flow field around the airplane should > not matter much. According to theory, any local increase in the velocity of > the air (due to the shape of the wing, for instance) will cause a > equivalent decrease in local static pressure so the total (static plus > dynamic) pressure will remain unchanged. If this is compared to an accurate > static pressure source, the difference is then dynamic pressure which is > then fed to an ASI or whatever to show an airspeed indication. > > The reason for the long, skinny, forward-projecting pitot tubes on some > aircraft is to move the static vents on the pitot head clear of the flow > field and get an accurate static pressure reading. If the static pressure is > sensed elsewhere, then no need for this. Look at an F-86 sometime, the pitot > tube is buried inside the engine intake duct and works fine (some models > anyway). > > Jim Oke > RV-3, RV-6A > Wpg, MB > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net> > To: > Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > > > > > > A question for those of you in the know....I was looking at a Diamond > aircraft this morning and a friend pointed out that the pitot tube is > completly hidden in the leading edge of the wing...just a 1/4 hole!? Can > this be done on an RV wing? It would be cool to have no pitot sticking out > in the wind, but I dont know if the front of the leading edge is undisturbed > air. It certainly is as it passes over the leading edge. Instinct tells me > that the air pressure would be changed right at the leading edge and the > airspeed readings would be inaccurate....but Diamond does it. Hmmmmmm any > thoughts? > > Thanks ...Evan > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Hi Larry, If asked, Would you be inclined to describe them a bit more and offer a performance aand product evaluation opinion? I am asking. {[;-)! Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > I use these. > > http://www.quiettechnologies.com/index_002.htm > > Bridge thickness: 0" > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: thomas a. sargent [mailto:sarg314(at)earthlink.net] > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:09 PM > > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > > > > --> > > > > I am finally at the point where I can raise and lower a (nearly) > > finished tip-up canopy AND can install the seat cushions just > > delivered > > to me from D.J. Lauritsen. (She does nice work, BTW.) I'm > > very normal > > size - about 5' 10" and was surprised at how little room there is > > between the top of my head and the canopy. Probably less than 2 > > inches. I certainly wouldn't want to sit lower than this for > > visibility > > reasons. With D.J.'s booster cushion installed, there's less than an > > inch, but I like the visibility. (I remember that Van's tips for > > landing an RV advise pilots to sit as high in the saddle as > > possible.) > > This was all done with the seat all the way back, which helps a bit. > > > > I then looked at my old David Clark headset and realized it would > > definitely be rubbing against the canopy because the "bridge" > > piece that > > goes across the top of my head is more than an inch thick. The > > references in the archives to headroom seem to mostly be from > > people who > > haven't picked which plane to build yet. > > > > So for those of you who are flying, here's the question: Do you use > > headsets with very thin bridges? Which ones? Or do you all have > > scratches on your canopies above your head? > > > > On the plus side, a low canopy is probably one the reasons > > these things > > go so fast. There's lots of compromises in an airplane design. > > > > -- > > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy > > > > > > =========== > > Matronics Forums. > > =========== > > =========== > > =========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
To answer the original poster, yes, at 5' 9" it is a problem, and I do have the aforementioned scratches all over the inside of the canopy, over my head and the passenger's head. It's not an area of the plexi you look through very often, maybe during a roll if you want to get woozy, but it is noticeable when looking in from outside on the ground. I have Lightspeeds, which have a very thick padded headband. I'm very interested to hear what Larry says about product performance with the in-ear headset he uses, in particular boom mike stability issues. I have had the Lightspeeds come off my noggin when pulling G in a turn and leaning my head back to look for the guy I'm dogfighting. Has happened several times in fact, So I am curious how well an ear spud can stabilize a boom mic in the aircraft environment. -Bill B <> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
I got mine last year at OSH, $325 I think? Stereo. They perform well and are very comfortable. As if I'm wearing nothing at all....on my head, that is. I have the generic foam plugs. You can get custom ear molds too. On the downside, they are a little tricky to get positioned exactly right-- the placement in the ear determines where the mic boom ends up. Sometimes the mic is just right, other times I have to try again. They can also be pulled out of adjustment if I turn my head far and the cord catches on your collar, for example. But these are minor annoyances, IMO. I like 'em. They are the only headset I've used since OSH last year (but I still have my David Clark's too). - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Jewell [mailto:jjewell(at)telus.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 6:55 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > > Hi Larry, > > If asked, Would you be inclined to describe them a bit more > and offer a performance aand product evaluation opinion? I am > asking. {[;-)! > > Jim in Kelowna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> > To: > Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > > > > I use these. > > > > http://www.quiettechnologies.com/index_002.htm > > > > Bridge thickness: 0" > > > > - > > Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF > > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > > http://BowenAero.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: thomas a. sargent [mailto:sarg314(at)earthlink.net] > > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:09 PM > > > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > > > > > > > --> > > > > > > I am finally at the point where I can raise and lower a (nearly) > > > finished tip-up canopy AND can install the seat cushions just > > > delivered to me from D.J. Lauritsen. (She does nice > work, BTW.) I'm > > > very normal > > > size - about 5' 10" and was surprised at how little room there is > > > between the top of my head and the canopy. Probably less than 2 > > > inches. I certainly wouldn't want to sit lower than this for > > > visibility > > > reasons. With D.J.'s booster cushion installed, there's > less than an > > > inch, but I like the visibility. (I remember that Van's tips for > > > landing an RV advise pilots to sit as high in the saddle as > > > possible.) > > > This was all done with the seat all the way back, which > helps a bit. > > > > > > I then looked at my old David Clark headset and realized it would > > > definitely be rubbing against the canopy because the > "bridge" piece > > > that > > > goes across the top of my head is more than an inch thick. The > > > references in the archives to headroom seem to mostly be > from people > > > who haven't picked which plane to build yet. > > > > > > So for those of you who are flying, here's the question: > Do you use > > > headsets with very thin bridges? Which ones? Or do you all have > > > scratches on your canopies above your head? > > > > > > On the plus side, a low canopy is probably one the reasons these > > > things go so fast. There's lots of compromises in an airplane > > > design. > > > > > > -- > > > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 27, 2004
The in-your-ear headsets may have issues in a dog-fight type scenario. Lots of extreme head movement and big G's will like take it out of 'alignment'. But for more sedate flying and hours of cross-country, they are perfect. - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: SportAV8R(at)aol.com [mailto:SportAV8R(at)aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:54 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets > > > > To answer the original poster, yes, at 5' 9" it is a problem, > and I do have the aforementioned scratches all over the > inside of the canopy, over my head and the passenger's head. > It's not an area of the plexi you look through very often, > maybe during a roll if you want to get woozy, but it is > noticeable when looking in from outside on the ground. I > have Lightspeeds, which have a very thick padded headband. > > I'm very interested to hear what Larry says about product > performance with the in-ear headset he uses, in particular > boom mike stability issues. I have had the Lightspeeds come > off my noggin when pulling G in a turn and leaning my head > back to look for the guy I'm dogfighting. Has happened > several times in fact, So I am curious how well an ear spud > can stabilize a boom mic in the aircraft environment. > > -Bill B > > < child cushion. At first I only used the booster, but was not > making the best landings. I then tried the child booster > cushion and my landings greatly improved. I still have about > 1" clearance between my head and the canopy. I have bumped my > head 2 or 3 times in very turbulent air. Really not too much > of a problem in the seatbelt and harnesses are sinched down. > Van is correct in assesment of sitting a tall as possible. > John Danielson>> > > > =========== > Matronics Forums. > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Deb and Bernard Weiss" <weissmntc(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Landing lights
Date: Mar 27, 2004
I am interested in options for landing lights that will fit inside the new tips that Van's is selling with the RV-7. Also to be included in the lens will be the strobes. DebBernie Weiss weissmntc(at)earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)direcpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as possible and hit bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not break. A word to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will save your scull. Z John Danielson wrote: > >I am 5'6". I also have DJ seats with the booster and the child cushion. At >first I only used the booster, but was not making the best landings. I then >tried the child booster cushion and my landings greatly improved. >I still have about 1" clearance between my head and the canopy. I have >bumped my head 2 or 3 times in very turbulent air. Really not too much of a >problem in the seatbelt and harnesses are sinched down. >Van is correct in assesment of sitting a tall as possible. >John Danielson > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Altrak Question
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Mike, We left it open - works great. Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A >From: N223RV(at)aol.com >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com, vansairforce(at)yahoogroups.com >Subject: RV-List: Altrak Question >Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:01:51 EST > > >For those flying with an Altrak: > >Did you hook the module into the static system or did you just leave it >open? > The manufacturer directions indicate it can be done either way and I'm >looking for what other people are doing. > >Thanks! > >-Mike Kraus >N223RV RV-4 Flying >N213RV RV-10 Empennage > > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Nothing on Miracle Fill in the archives. Details please! Allen Fulmer DON'T USE BONDO ! Unless you want to see a crack at its edges after aroound 100 hours...use Miracle Fill....mine hasn't come loose or shown edge lifting in 9 years...Bondo has !! John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
I'm not convinced that it is quite this simple. I suspect there are at least two potential issues: 1. There should be some energy lost in the boundary layer, so the pitot pressure may not be quite as high as it should be. 2. The stagnation point (the spot on the leading edge where the velocity comes to zero) moves as the angle of attch changes. So I think any hole location would only work properly at one angle of attack. If it was so simple to use use a hole in the wing leading edge, manufacturers wouldn't be spending money on pitot tubes. It would be an interesting science experiment to have a normal pitot tube, and a hole in the leading edge, each hooked up to an ASI. Then we could compare the readings from the two different pitot locations. I would be very hesitant to use a wing leading edge hole as my only pitot source until we can find definitive proof whether it would work properly or not. I would love to see a good picture of the F-86 pitot source that Jim Oke mentioned. Is it a somewhat conventional pitot tube inside the engine inlet? If so it would sidestep the boundary layer and stagnation point issues I mentioned. Kevin Horton > >The placement of the pitot tube in the flow field around the airplane should >not matter much. According to theory, any local increase in the velocity of >the air (due to the shape of the wing, for instance) will cause a >equivalent decrease in local static pressure so the total (static plus >dynamic) pressure will remain unchanged. If this is compared to an accurate >static pressure source, the difference is then dynamic pressure which is >then fed to an ASI or whatever to show an airspeed indication. > >The reason for the long, skinny, forward-projecting pitot tubes on some >aircraft is to move the static vents on the pitot head clear of the flow >field and get an accurate static pressure reading. If the static pressure is >sensed elsewhere, then no need for this. Look at an F-86 sometime, the pitot >tube is buried inside the engine intake duct and works fine (some models >anyway). > >Jim Oke >RV-3, RV-6A >Wpg, MB > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net> >To: >Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > > >> >> A question for those of you in the know....I was looking at a Diamond >aircraft this morning and a friend pointed out that the pitot tube is >completly hidden in the leading edge of the wing...just a 1/4 hole!? Can >this be done on an RV wing? It would be cool to have no pitot sticking out >in the wind, but I dont know if the front of the leading edge is undisturbed >air. It certainly is as it passes over the leading edge. Instinct tells me >that the air pressure would be changed right at the leading edge and the >airspeed readings would be inaccurate....but Diamond does it. Hmmmmmm any >thoughts? >> Thanks ...Evan > > >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Gary Zilik wrote: > >I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as possible and hit >bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not break. A word >to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will >save your scull. > >Z > > I'm surprised that no one has metioned Peltor. They have a very thin head band and seem to be a very good quality headset. -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
Date: Mar 27, 2004
I would love to see a good picture of the F-86 pitot source that Jim Oke mentioned. Is it a somewhat conventional pitot tube inside the engine inlet? I wonder if this was one of the tubes used to provide the engine's FCU with an ambient pressure signal? Scott in Vancouver > >The placement of the pitot tube in the flow field around the airplane should >not matter much. According to theory, any local increase in the velocity of >the air (due to the shape of the wing, for instance) will cause a >equivalent decrease in local static pressure so the total (static plus >dynamic) pressure will remain unchanged. If this is compared to an accurate >static pressure source, the difference is then dynamic pressure which is >then fed to an ASI or whatever to show an airspeed indication. > >The reason for the long, skinny, forward-projecting pitot tubes on some >aircraft is to move the static vents on the pitot head clear of the flow >field and get an accurate static pressure reading. If the static pressure is >sensed elsewhere, then no need for this. Look at an F-86 sometime, the pitot >tube is buried inside the engine intake duct and works fine (some models >anyway). > >Jim Oke >RV-3, RV-6A >Wpg, MB > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net> >To: >Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube > > > >> >> A question for those of you in the know....I was looking at a Diamond >aircraft this morning and a friend pointed out that the pitot tube is >completly hidden in the leading edge of the wing...just a 1/4 hole!? Can >this be done on an RV wing? It would be cool to have no pitot sticking out >in the wind, but I dont know if the front of the leading edge is undisturbed >air. It certainly is as it passes over the leading edge. Instinct tells me >that the air pressure would be changed right at the leading edge and the >airspeed readings would be inaccurate....but Diamond does it. Hmmmmmm any >thoughts? >> Thanks ...Evan > > >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List Skidding
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Tape a several strings about 6 inches long each across the top of the engine cowling - they will show local airflow, which will probably be affected/modified by the spiraling prop wash. We had a single yaw string on the nose of the F-84F which was quite informative - of course we had no prop to "modify" the straight back flow of air. It was good for showing yaw. On a tractor prop plane, starting with several strings may reveal that 1 particular one would be best - might even try taping a second row on the front area of the canopy - further aft from prop - but airflow will be "splitting"/going around the canopy so don't know how true the reading will be. See how the strings compare with the slip indicator. You might find a combination that gives you confidence that you are flying straight. David ----- Original Message ----- From: <smoothweasel(at)juno.com> Subject: RV-List: RV-List Skidding > > Hey Guys, Is it possible to have a plane flying in a skid ( sideways ) > with the turn coordinator ball in the center???? > I have already checked that the instrument was installed level to the > aircraft. Any ideas??? Fairings out of line???? > > Weasel Graber > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net>
Subject: Info on RV8 at LOE
Date: Mar 27, 2004
There was an RV8 at Las Cruses that is owned by Marvin Brott. Anyone know him or have an email address for him. I'd like to talk to him about his plane. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jason Sneed <n242ds(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 27, 2004
what was the OAT that day? On Mar 27, 2004, at 12:23 PM, RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com wrote: > > All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed > up. I > noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run > smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing > above about > 1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. > > Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture > adjustment > maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture > lever is > brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle > mixture problem (I think). > > Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
Subject: Rv-List Skidding
From: smoothweasel(at)juno.com
Hey Thanx to all for the info. on skidding I seem to have finally decided that it is flying true! Weasel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2004
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Bobby Hester wrote: > >Gary Zilik wrote: > > > >> >>I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as possible and hit >>bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not break. A word >>to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will >>save your scull. >> >>Z >> >> >> >> >I'm surprised that no one has metioned Peltor. They have a very thin >head band and seem to be a very good quality headset. > > > At 6'3" using Peltors I have no problem with head room. Yes I am close to the canopy but not a problem IMO. Make adjustments with your seat cushions. As someone else mentioned take the seatback adjustment off and let the seat back rest against the rail. IMO Peltors are the best non noise canceling headsets Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
OAT was around 75 F. Stein may be right, I'll try using the boost pump to see if that improves engine run at low rpm. Walt Shipley P.S. Thanks guys for all the input, maybe I can get this puppy runnin' right ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV4" <VansRV4GRVMJ(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: capacitive fuel senders
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Hi, I have capacitive fuel senders for my RV7, indicators from Pacific, need converter from capacitive to voltage. Has anyone got similar indicators? where did you get the converters? thanks Marcel RV7 #71481 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "john henley" <henley(at)seii.net>
Subject: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Listners (and Vans), I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. I had never thought about water entering the induction system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV ator about this. On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: "Gould, Richard AE1 NAVTESTWINGPAC 561000E" <richard.j.gould(at)navy.mil>
I would be surprised (and honestly, very curious) to see an aircraft that had a Pitot static probe mounted flush in the LE of the wing. I wonder how it would overcome the airflow separation at the LE. I would find it hard to believe that a P-S system could accurately measure true impact pressure without any type of correction. > According to theory, any local increase in the velocity of > the air (due to the shape of the wing, for instance) will cause a > equivalent decrease in local static pressure so the total (static plus > dynamic) pressure will remain unchanged. Every small SEL GA airplane that I have seen does not have compound Pitot-Static probe, so the equivalent static pressure would not be sensed. Every airplane that I have worked on from Cessna's to 4-Engine Turboprops to Super Hornets has a pitot probe that juts into the airstream. If a flush mount worked WELL, I think it would have caught on by now. > Look at an F-86 sometime, the pitot > tube is buried inside the engine intake duct and works fine (some models Are you sure that it is a pitot tube for the INSTRUMENT system? How far down the intake is it? If it were anywhere past the front edge, the air data that it is sensing would completely off. Think about it. It would be reading an airspeed indication while sitting on the ramp at idle! Yes turbine engines often have pitot tubes in them, but they're not for the P-S system. They are for the engine fuel control. Even the Engine-Driven Compressor (EDC) for cabin pressurization on the L-188/P-3 has its own Pitot-Static probes inside its own intake. Rick Gould RV-4 Camarillo, CA FLY NAVY! __I__ --O--O--( )--O--O-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
john henley wrote: > >Listners (and Vans), > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. > > I had never thought about water entering the induction system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV ator about this. > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > >John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs > > > > > Do you have a hole in the bottom of your filter box to drain water and fuel that can accumulate? Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Rv-List Skidding
Date: Mar 28, 2004
One more thought on the ball being off center - if the plane is not flying true through the air, there will be some amount of aerodynamic load acting on the side of the fuselage. This load is not countered by an equal load on the other side of the fuselage; hence, there will be a lateral acceleration (this causes the ball to move toward that side). This acceleration can be "countered" by the aircraft turning in a flat roll attitude (as a car around a corner), or by lowering the wing on the side of the air load to prevent the turn. Either way, the ball will move towards the air load. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours Terrible flying weather!! http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <benandginny(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Landing lights
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Deb and Bernie, Check out www.creativair.com I am very happy with my installation. Also www.killacycle.com Ben Cunningham RV7 Finish Kit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deb and Bernard Weiss" <weissmntc(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RV-List: Landing lights > > I am interested in options for landing lights that will fit inside the new tips that Van's is selling with the RV-7. Also to be included in the lens will be the strobes. > > > DebBernie Weiss > weissmntc(at)earthlink.net > Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Date: Mar 28, 2004
> I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as > possible and hit > bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not > break. A word > to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will > save your scull. > I can't imagine flying without a 5 point harness, if only for very reason stated above. I suspect that anyone who has flown in a 6/7/9 (can't speak for the seat belt geometry in the others) with a 5 point in turbulence will be a believer. I wouldn't even contemplate not having the 5th point, as it is so much more comfortable, not to mention safer. I suspect that it must be the equivalent of getting several inches more headroom. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
> > OAT was around 75 F. Stein may be right, I'll try using the > boost pump to see > if that improves engine run at low rpm. > > Walt Shipley The fuel pressure in the injector lines is extremely low at idle, well below the engine driven fuel pump pressure. If the boost pump fixes the problem, the vapor problem is in the suction side of things (pre - engine fuel pump), not in the injector lines. Sorry if I missed it, what injection system do you have? Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
It's fairly common practice to drill a small "drain hole" somewhere near the low point in the induction, to those who haven't yet, you should...for this reason and a couple others. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of john henley Subject: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem Listners (and Vans), I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. I had never thought about water entering the induction system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV ator about this. On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV8ter(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Used engine vibration mounts
A local Mooney owner is installing a new engine and he received 4 new vibration mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said to make him an offer if interested. The *old* ones have 670 hours on them since new in 97. There's no obvious damage or marks on them and he says there wasn't any noticeable sag and that he'd probably still use them if he didn't end up getting new ones. Is there a compression limit I can measure when I torque a bolt & nut on them to test there usefullness? How darn long do these things usually last anyway? thanks, lucky From: RV8ter(at)aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:40:59 EST Subject: used engine vibration mounts -------------------------------1080402059 Local Mooney owner installing a new engine and he received 4 new vibration mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said to make him an offer if interested. The *old* ones have 670 hours on them since new in 97. There's no obvious damage or marks on them and he says there wasn't any noticeable sag and that he'd probably still use them if he didn't end up getting new ones. Is there a compression limit I can measure when I torque a bolt & nut on them to test there usefullness? How darn long do these things usually last anyway? thanks, lucky -------------------------------1080402059 Local Mooney owner installing a new engine and he received 4 new vibration mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said to make him an offer if interested. The *old* oneshave 670 hours on them since new in 97. There's no obvious damage or marks on them andhe says there wasn't any noticeable sag and that he'd probablystill use them if he didn't end up getting new ones. Is there acompression limit I can measurewhen Itorque a bolt nuton them to test there usefullness? How darn long do these things usually last anyway? thanks, lucky -------------------------------1080402059-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV8ter(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Stein, What are the other reasons? n a message dated 3/28/2004 10:44:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, stein(at)steinair.com writes: It's fairly common practice to drill a small "drain hole" somewhere near the low point in the induction, to those who haven't yet, you should...for this reason and a couple others. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
That's great for the updraft installations, but on the horizontal induction with the snorkel the induction manifold in the sump is pretty much the low point... Particularly for taildraggers. Covers are a prudent choice. Regards, Greg Young - Houston (DWH) RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A > > > It's fairly common practice to drill a small "drain hole" > somewhere near the low point in the induction, to those who > haven't yet, you should...for this reason and a couple others. > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > RV6's, Minneapolis > > > > > Listners (and Vans), > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. > I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction > air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked > the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to > approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to > start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then > stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it > would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was > shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I > removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail > and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. > While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any > remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter > was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine > started and ran fine. > > I had never thought about water entering the induction > system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the > air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park > it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the > future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV > ator about this. > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight > sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > > John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Well....I specifically left this one out because I'll bet it raises more questins than it answers, but here goes. The main reason for the drain hole is for fuel. Fuel from overpriming, flooding, etc.. This hole or something similar to it is very common on most certified aircraft. Mooney went as far as putting an actual drain hose from the induction system out of the cowl, but I don't think that's needed. That's the main one I know of, draining water is a bonus. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV8ter(at)aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem Stein, What are the other reasons? n a message dated 3/28/2004 10:44:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, stein(at)steinair.com writes: It's fairly common practice to drill a small "drain hole" somewhere near the low point in the induction, to those who haven't yet, you should...for this reason and a couple others. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)QCBC.ORG>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
We had a very similar incident at Oshkosh one year where the induction box filled with water because the wasn't a low point drain. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or sportpilot(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > It's fairly common practice to drill a small "drain hole" somewhere near the > low point in the induction, to those who haven't yet, you should...for this > reason and a couple others. > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > RV6's, Minneapolis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of john henley > To: RV-List(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > > Listners (and Vans), > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the > IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the > inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it > was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to > start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out > and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats > going on here? > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have > water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom > of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the > induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force > any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not > damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. > > I had never thought about water entering the induction system before > but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet > plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone > some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the > RV ator about this. > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel > filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > > John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
> This hole or something similar to it is very common on most certified > aircraft. Mooney went as far as putting an actual drain hose from the > induction system out of the cowl, but I don't think that's needed. For the IO-360 with horizontal induction, Van's FWF kit drawings do call out the use of a sniffle valve -- with a drain tube running out the back of the cowl. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
> > Well....I specifically left this one out because I'll bet it > raises more questins than it answers, but here goes. > > The main reason for the drain hole is for fuel. Fuel from > overpriming, flooding, etc.. This hole or something similar > to it is very common on most certified aircraft. Mooney went > as far as putting an actual drain hose from the induction > system out of the cowl, but I don't think that's needed. > > That's the main one I know of, draining water is a bonus. > > Cheers, > Stein. To add a little to what Stein said, two holes are needed in the bottom of the FAB, one outside the filter and one just inside, at the lowest point. The small hole inside the filter is to let fuel out, the outboard one to drain water which gets in. A drain hose is a good idea on trike planes, otherwise the prime fuel slops all over the gear and wheel fairings. Prosealing some sort of fitting on the outside of the FAB onto which a hose can be clamped has worked for me. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer(at)mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Used engine vibration mounts
Date: Mar 28, 2004
If you can get a good deal on them, I'd use them. They are usually recommended to be changed at engine overhaul time, so every 2000 hours. Yours have 2/3 of their life left on them, and they are relatively fresh time-wise so why not? (If they had 670 hours but were 20 years old, I'd probably replace them due to age.) Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: <RV8ter(at)aol.com> Subject: RV-List: Used engine vibration mounts > > A local Mooney owner is installing a new engine and he received 4 new > vibration mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said > to make him an offer if interested. The *old* ones have 670 hours on them > since new in 97. > > There's no obvious damage or marks on them and he says there wasn't any > noticeable sag and that he'd probably still use them if he didn't end up getting > new ones. Is there a compression limit I can measure when I torque a bolt & > nut on them to test there usefullness? > > How darn long do these things usually last anyway? > > thanks, > lucky > > From: RV8ter(at)aol.com > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:40:59 EST > Subject: used engine vibration mounts > To: vansairforce(at)yahoogroups.com > > > -------------------------------1080402059 > > Local Mooney owner installing a new engine and he received 4 new vibration > mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said to > make him an offer if interested. The *old* ones have 670 hours on them since > new in 97. > > There's no obvious damage or marks on them and he says there wasn't any > noticeable sag and that he'd probably still use them if he didn't end up getting > new ones. Is there a compression limit I can measure when I torque a bolt & > nut on them to test there usefullness? > > How darn long do these things usually last anyway? > > thanks, > lucky > > -------------------------------1080402059 > > > > > Local Mooney owner installing a new engine and he received 4 new vibration mounts with his STC engine kit so he has his current ones for sale and said to make him an offer if interested. The *old* oneshave 670 hours on them since new in 97. > > There's no obvious damage or marks on them andhe says there wasn't any noticeable sag and that he'd probablystill use them if he didn't end up getting new ones. Is there acompression limit I can measurewhen Itorque a bolt nuton them to test there usefullness? > > How darn long do these things usually last anyway? > > thanks, > lucky > > -------------------------------1080402059-- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)direcpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
I fly with Peltor's. Thin headband, great ANR and comfortable. Z Bobby Hester wrote: > >Gary Zilik wrote: > > > >> >>I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as possible and hit >>bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not break. A word >>to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will >>save your scull. >> >>Z >> >> >> >> >I'm surprised that no one has metioned Peltor. They have a very thin >head band and seem to be a very good quality headset. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)direcpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
On our first trip to the Bahamas the rains came down horizontal for a number of hours. The next day we were going island hopping and when I started my engine, it started but shook like a wet dog as it was firing on 1 or 2 cylinders. The problem was that I had forgot to put the drain holes in the FAB (carburated 6A) and the air box had filled with water. I used an ice pick from the local establishment to poke two holes in the FAB to drain the water. IMHO, the holes are and important addition for draining both water fuel. Jerry Springer wrote: > >john henley wrote: > > > >> >>Listners (and Vans), >> >> I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? >> >> I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. >> >> I had never thought about water entering the induction system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV ator about this. >> >> On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. >> >>John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Do you have a hole in the bottom of your filter box to drain water and >fuel that can accumulate? > >Jerry > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fuel tank rotation bracket
From: "" <tx_jayhawk(at)excite.com>
Date: Mar 28, 2004
List, After a tremendously frustrating afternoon of getting proseal everywhere, I have a couple of questions: 1) I made the rotation bracket, but it seems the center of the hole for the elbow fitting did not align (extend) far enough. I checked my dims and they all looked to be okay, so I had to drill it out to 5/8. Is that normal? It seems that should be okay. 2) It states to use -4 rivets. Is that just to alleviate the use of c-sunk rivets? Since edge distance is limited, it seems it would be better to c-sink the bracket and use -3 rivets. 3) Assuming one were to completely mangle a piece of the 1x1 angle in his frustration (wiht proseal everywhere), any reason why home depot replacement angle wouldn't work? Is there something special about the angle vans' sends? Thanks in advance, Scott 7A Wings Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6/6A canopy headroom and headsets
Jerry Springer wrote: > > Bobby Hester wrote: > > >> >>Gary Zilik wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >>>I've had my seat belt and shoulder harness as tight as possible and hit >>>bumps in my slider 6a and wondered why the canopy did not break. A word >>>to the wise; remove the button from the top of your ball cap, it will >>>save your scull. >>> >>>Z >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>I'm surprised that no one has metioned Peltor. They have a very thin >>head band and seem to be a very good quality headset. >> >> >> > > At 6'3" using Peltors I have no problem with head room. Yes I am close > to the canopy but not a problem IMO. > Make adjustments with your seat cushions. As someone else mentioned take > the seatback adjustment off and let the > seat back rest against the rail. IMO Peltors are the best non noise > canceling headsets > > Jerry I can personally endorse the Lightspeed QFR Xcountry headset. After four years of hitting the headband of my old 15K's on the canopy of the RV-6, I switched to the QFR's because I am a Lightspeed fan and the QFR's have a very narrow headband. I hardly ever contact the canopy any more. The fact that the Xcountrys work very nicely, are very lightweight, and cost less than $300 is an added bonus. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
I have the Bendix RSA injection system. Walt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "john henley" <henley(at)seii.net>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
To those that inquired and offered the drain hole advice; there is no place for a drain hole on the IO360 horizontal induction with the snorkel induction. The induction sump itself is the low point. When I built my 6 a few years ago, I drilled a weeper hole in the Fab airbox for that purpose but this system is different. The easiest thing to do is to keep the water out. Alternatively, there is a plug in the bottom of the induction sump that I will probably attach a hose fitting to, along with a small valve that so that I have the option to drain it if I should forget to cover it up and a shower comes along some day. John Henley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
> I have the Bendix RSA injection system. > > Walt > If the problem is fuel boiling in the injector (or anything post servo) lines, I believe that there is an improvement available. It seems like I heard that there is some stronger spring that can be put into the distribution block in (some) Bendix systems. This functions to increase the pressures, thereby increasing the boiling temp. I would guess the idle mixture would have to be adjusted to compensate. Others more knowledgeable than I need to comment. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Brian Walsh <fly1v1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-7 Props
I am new, and this may be a basic question. I am trying to see what the performance benefits (or disadvantages) may be with a three bladed prop, vs. a two bladed constant speed prop. Does anyone have any numbers. I am looking at an RV-7A. Takeoff perfomance and climb performance are not big numbers for me. I plan on doing a bit of aerobatics though, and a good bit of X-C flying. In airplanes I have flown with 3 bladed props, they seemed a much better (quieter and smoother) ride, but did not seem to make much of a difference in performance. Also, what will this mean in terms of cost (both initial and annual)? Thanks! --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)direcpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-7 Props
Is this the F-16 Brian Walsh. If it is, when are you going to return to Colorado and chase around the sky with the General again??? Randy Lervold has a good site and did a lot of prop testing. goto http://www.rv-8.com and find his propellor section. Gary Zilik Brian Walsh wrote: > >I am new, and this may be a basic question. I am trying to see what >the performance benefits (or disadvantages) may be with a three bladed >prop, vs. a two bladed constant speed prop. Does anyone have any >numbers. I am looking at an RV-7A. Takeoff perfomance and climb >performance are not big numbers for me. I plan on doing a bit of aerobatics >though, and a good bit of X-C flying. In airplanes I have flown with 3 >bladed props, they seemed a much better (quieter and smoother) ride, but >did not seem to make much of a difference in performance. Also, what >will this mean in terms of cost (both initial and annual)? Thanks! > > >--------------------------------- > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Guess it depends on what type of IO-360 you're talkin' bout. On my IO-360-A1B6, you can see the horizontal induction sump is machined with the sniffle valve hole right in there: http://rvproject.com/images/2004/20040303_sniffle_valve_hole.jpg http://rvproject.com/images/2004/20040303_sniffle_valve_installed.jpg http://rvproject.com/images/2004/20040303_sniffle_valve_drain_tube2.jpg http://rvproject.com/images/2004/20040303_drain_tube_side_profile.jpg Hope this helps, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "john henley" <henley(at)seii.net> Subject: RV-List: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > To those that inquired and offered the drain hole advice; there is no place for a drain hole on the IO360 horizontal induction with the snorkel induction. The induction sump itself is the low point. When I built my 6 a few years ago, I drilled a weeper hole in the Fab airbox for that purpose but this system is different. The easiest thing to do is to keep the water out. Alternatively, there is a plug in the bottom of the induction sump that I will probably attach a hose fitting to, along with a small valve that so that I have the option to drain it if I should forget to cover it up and a shower comes along some day. > > John Henley > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: capacitive fuel senders
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst(at)ucol.ac.nz>
Check out Ken Weir's web site at http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/articles/KP89SEP.pdf for DIY capacitance senders. -----Original Message----- From: RV4 [mailto:VansRV4GRVMJ(at)btinternet.com] Subject: RV-List: capacitive fuel senders Hi, I have capacitive fuel senders for my RV7, indicators from Pacific, need converter from capacitive to voltage. Has anyone got similar indicators? where did you get the converters? thanks Marcel RV7 #71481 Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL (0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of Learning. Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your future ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <groves(at)epix.net>
Subject: Re: RV-7 Props
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Hello Brian, I don't have my 8 in the air yet, but I can safely say that a three blade prop will be quieter and some what smoother, but it will be slower than a two blade. Check out Randy Lervolds web site he did a great testing job with the older Hartzell and the new whirlwind props,www.RV-8.com, Good Luck, Kirk RV-8 81925 > > From: Brian Walsh <fly1v1(at)yahoo.com> > Date: 2004/03/28 Sun PM 03:20:55 EST > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Props > > > I am new, and this may be a basic question. I am trying to see what > the performance benefits (or disadvantages) may be with a three bladed > prop, vs. a two bladed constant speed prop. Does anyone have any > numbers. I am looking at an RV-7A. Takeoff perfomance and climb > performance are not big numbers for me. I plan on doing a bit of aerobatics > though, and a good bit of X-C flying. In airplanes I have flown with 3 > bladed props, they seemed a much better (quieter and smoother) ride, but > did not seem to make much of a difference in performance. Also, what > will this mean in terms of cost (both initial and annual)? Thanks! > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com>
Subject: Canopy room and headsets.
Date: Mar 28, 2004
I use these. http://www.quiettechnologies.com/index_002.htm Bridge thickness: 0" Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Larry, I followed the link and could find no reference on their list to price. It seems they are only passive and have no ANR function. I would be very interested in these if they are either relatively cheap or I can try them out to see how they compare with conventional sets. At 60+ and with some slight hearing loss I really appreciate the performance of the better ANR sets and unless these can match their performance I would be unwilling to spend much on them. Can you tell us what you paid and how you think they compare with other specific headsets. Rob Rob W M Shipley N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vinnfizz(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: hidden pitot tube - F-86 Intake Pitot Tube
Check out the following link for a picture of the F-86 Intake Click here: Google Image Result for www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk146_SAAF_Sabres/part2/images_Jan_Teipel/8_ Ed Flow C-140 Flying RV-8 Preview Plans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JVanLaak(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Flush mounted pitot
A quick Google search of "F-86 pitot" located a fun article on the history of the P-86 through F-86. Note that the original mount inside the duct was inaccurate due to the effect of engine flow. All F-86As were initially delivered with the pitot head located inside the air intake duct. It was found in practice that false airspeed readings could be obtained due to the increased airflow within the intake duct, so North American decided to move the pitot head to the tip of a short boom that extended from the leading edge of the starboard wingtip. All F-86As were later retrofitted with the wingtip boom when went through IRAN (Inspect and Repair as Necessary). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Subject: Re: RV-7 Props
FWIW and SYA (since you asked!)... Now this is early in my journey, and I don't have a lot of experience with this stuff- only airplane I've every owned, built, etc., and have never played Kevin Horton on TV or anywhere else................my 150 hp RV-6A has a really nice Craig Catto 3-blade (it says "66"x66""on it). My test pilot says it's a helluva prop. Without gear fairings or pants, and after multiple gps check runs (what else do ya do for 40 hours?!) I can safely report that I'm seeing 175+ mph indicated at 2-3000' with 2700-2750 rpm, 40-60 deg. OAT. After multiple climb tests I'm getting at best 1200 fpm solo, which is fine for me and still blows me away, and I'm subjectively VERY happy with the fan. Makes it a little tougher to pull the lower cowl (needs a longer slot for the nose gear leg) Craig doesn't sell stock or pay commisions, but I'd recommend giving him a call & hope ya don't need it real soon.......................and no, ya caint have mine! From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay(at)jetstream.net>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 28, 2004
Hi John: I really don't want to cause you any concern but what happened to you is what we call hydraulicing. It is usually caused by oil draining down past the rings on the lower cylinders on radial engines. If a cylinder has enough liquid in it (in your case water) to prevent it from reaching top dead center on a compression stroke and the engine is forced to turn further because the liquid can not be compressed something has to give. Usually it is the cylinder head partially separated from the barrel or a bent connecting rod. If it is a bent rod it usually goes undetected until there is failure and this can happen with very little or no warning. To prevent this from happening on the radial engines we turned the engines through by hand enough blades to check for hydaulicing, if in the process any resistance was encountered we turned the engine backwards to clear any oil. Some of the big engine starters were equipped with a clutch in the starters so the engine could not be forced beyond a certain pressure. At the risk of getting this post to long I will relate an experience that happened to me some years back while flying a DeHavilland Beaver on floats.This Beaver was equipped with the standard P & W R985 -450 HP 9 Cyl Radial engine. I was moving a couple of boats from one lake to another, had finished the move and was taking off empty out of this rather small lake when the cowling gave a couple of unusual shakes, got my attention but then ran on as ever. During the next take-off in front of home base just as I lifted out of the water there was a load bang and the prop stopped rigid in front of me. They came out with a boat and towed me back to the dock. A link rod (connecting rod) had failed and totally destroyed the engine internally About a hundred hours previously the master cylinder had been changed by a crew working late, they got the cylinder off and then quit for the night covering the engine with a tarp. During the night someone moved the propeller and unlocked the rings on another cylinder and put a slight bend in one of the link rods. The engineer didn't think any damage was done and said nothing about it. Had the failure occurred under different circumstances I probably wouldn't be writing this tonight. Eustace Bowhay ----- Original Message ----- From: "john henley" <henley(at)seii.net> Subject: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > Listners (and Vans), > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats going on here? > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. > > I had never thought about water entering the induction system before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the RV ator about this. > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > > John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino(at)echoes.net>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I was advised during construction (by a friend) to drill a small drain hole in the bottom of the air filter tube just before the fuel injection throttle body. James Cimino RV-8 SN 80039 100+ Hours 570-842-4057 http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay(at)jetstream.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > Hi John: > > I really don't want to cause you any concern but what happened to you is > what we call hydraulicing. It is usually caused by oil draining down past > the rings on the lower cylinders on radial engines. If a cylinder has enough > liquid in it (in your case water) to prevent it from reaching top dead > center on a compression stroke and the engine is forced to turn further > because the liquid can not be compressed something has to give. Usually it > is the cylinder head partially separated from the barrel or a bent > connecting rod. If it is a bent rod it usually goes undetected until there > is failure and this can happen with very little or no warning. > > To prevent this from happening on the radial engines we turned the engines > through by hand enough blades to check for hydaulicing, if in the process > any resistance was encountered we turned the engine backwards to clear any > oil. Some of the big engine starters were equipped with a clutch in the > starters so the engine could not be forced beyond a certain pressure. > > At the risk of getting this post to long I will relate an experience that > happened to me some years back while flying a DeHavilland Beaver on > floats.This Beaver was equipped with the standard P & W R985 -450 HP 9 Cyl > Radial engine. > > I was moving a couple of boats from one lake to another, had finished the > move and was taking off empty out of this rather small lake when the cowling > gave a couple of unusual shakes, got my attention but then ran on as ever. > During the next take-off in front of home base just as I lifted out of the > water there was a load bang and the prop stopped rigid in front of me. They > came out with a boat and towed me back to the dock. > > A link rod (connecting rod) had failed and totally destroyed the engine > internally About a hundred hours previously the master cylinder had been > changed by a crew working late, they got the cylinder off and then quit for > the night covering the engine with a tarp. During the night someone moved > the propeller and unlocked the rings on another cylinder and put a slight > bend in one of the link rods. The engineer didn't think any damage was done > and said nothing about it. > > Had the failure occurred under different circumstances I probably wouldn't > be writing this tonight. > > Eustace Bowhay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john henley" <henley(at)seii.net> > To: > Subject: RV-List: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem > > > > > > Listners (and Vans), > > > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the > IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the > inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it > was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to > start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out > and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats > going on here? > > > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have > water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom > of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the > induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force > any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not > damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. > > > > I had never thought about water entering the induction system > before but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as > inlet plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves > someone some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb > in the RV ator about this. > > > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel > filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > > > > John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube - F-86 Intake Pitot Tube
Yes, that looks like it. Check the top of the duct just below the 1 in the date on the photo. The picture is rather dark but it sure looks like a pitot tube there. Jim Oke Wpg., MB ----- Original Message ----- From: <Vinnfizz(at)aol.com> Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube - F-86 Intake Pitot Tube > > Check out the following link for a picture of the F-86 Intake > > Click here: Google Image Result for > www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk146_SAAF_Sabres/part2/images _Jan_Teipel/8_ > > > Ed Flow > C-140 Flying > RV-8 Preview Plans > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2004
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: scratching the canopy
Maybe everybody on the list already knows this, but some of the new folks might not. I found a way to scratch my canopy while I was sanding the edges. When you get to the shaping of the edge of the canopy (rounding it off), or any time you use coarse sand paper on the edge, be very careful how you remove the dust that accumulates. I made a lot of fairly deep scratches along the edge by wiping off the dust with my finger. It looks like, and mostly is, just plexiglass dust, but apparently there is some small amount of coarse grit that has popped off the sand paper mixed in with it. If you press your finger firmly against the plexi and wipe it along the edge, a few grains of abrasive will get caught between your finger and the plexi resulting in deep scratches roughly parallel to the edge. Use a brush. I figured it out too late. I am now paying for my sins by polishing these scratches out. Some are so deep that I have to start with fine sand paper (600 - 1000) and then use the Novus coarse scratch remover followed by the fine scratch remover. It works but it's a lot of labor. If anybody knows a way to mechanize this process, please do tell. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim and Bev Cone" <jimnbev(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix
Date: Mar 28, 2004
I have never had any problems using Bondo. I used it any place I needed to fill on three different planes and have not had the problems that another lister did. Mixed well and feathered out by sanding should work fine. Auto body shops swear by the stuff when repairing cars and if there was a consistent problem with the paint after a time, they would know about it and stop using it. Jim Cone 3-Peat Offender ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: hidden pitot tube - F-86 Intake Pitot Tube
But, why do we think this pitot tube is connected to the airspeed system? It could be connected to the engine's fuel control unit. I pulled out some books off my book shelf and looked at pictures of Canadian built Sabres. The Sabre 2, 4, 5 and 6 models all had a pitot tube mounted on a boom extending ahead of the right wing tip. I couldn't find any good pictures of the Sabre 1 or 3 models, or of North American built F-86s. See: <http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk146_SAAF_Sabres/images%20Dave%20Bekker/sabre57.jpg> Kevin Horton > >Yes, that looks like it. > >Check the top of the duct just below the 1 in the date on the photo. The >picture is rather dark but it sure looks like a pitot tube there. > >Jim Oke >Wpg., MB > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <Vinnfizz(at)aol.com> >To: >Subject: RV-List: hidden pitot tube - F-86 Intake Pitot Tube > > >> >> Check out the following link for a picture of the F-86 Intake >> >> Click here: Google Image Result for >> >www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk146_SAAF_Sabres/part2/images >_Jan_Teipel/8_ >> >> >> Ed Flow >> C-140 Flying >> RV-8 Preview Plans > > >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix
Jim and Bev Cone wrote: > > > I have never had any problems using Bondo. I used it any place I > needed to fill on three different planes and have not had the > problems that another lister did. Mixed well and feathered out by > sanding should work fine. Auto body shops swear by the stuff when > repairing cars and if there was a consistent problem with the paint > after a time, they would know about it and stop using it. > > Jim Cone 3-Peat Offender Dittos, Jim. Many times I have heard warnings on this list about the dire consequences of using Bondo on our planes for minor ding repair but this hasn't been supported by my experience. My RV-6 has over five years on its paint job and there is absolutely no evidence of problems with areas where I used Bondo and spot putty to correct small boo boos. It is, however, important that correct technique be used regardless of which filler is applied. I wonder if problems some have found are due to improperly applied product. Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 560 hrs) http://thervjournal.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Huft" <rv8tor(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: used MT prop for sale
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Hi All I have for sale a 3-blade MT prop, MTV-12-B-183. This is the hydraulic constant-speed version, 72" dia. Works with McCauley or Woodward governors. It has 127.6 hours tach time. It is in near perfect condition, with no chips or dings on the leading edges (an advantage of taildraggers :o)). The spinner is painted Ferrari red. I removed this prop from my RV-8 to replace it with an Aerocomposites 2-blade. Early testing indicates the AC is 4-5 kts faster. Climb is similar for both. The MT is smoother. Asking $6500 plus shipping. John Huft rv8tor(at)lazy8.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Hultzapple" <thultzap(at)rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Adjustable Rudder Pedals
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I 've changed my mind about the ground adjustable rudder pedals in my RV8A Quickbuild. It looks like all of the attach points are in the fuselage for the adjustable pedals. Does any one know if the rails for the ground adjustable pedals will interfere with the in flight adjustable ones? Better, yet, does anyone have in flight pedals that they would part with? Ted ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: accident rate in experimentals
Date: Mar 29, 2004
> > >I have absolutely no idea as to what semantics and data are being used >here. But no matter how you slice it, this is a very interesting piece >of data. I have to believe, based on my personal experience with RV's, >that we are flying a generally safer plane that other homebuilts. Does >anyone have some data on this? > > >I realize this gets fairly complicated analyzing this stuff. I know you >can dice any which way to say anything. But I would like to be able to >say to friends and family with confidence 2 things: > >1. Experimentals are safer than other commercially available aircraft in >General Aviation I could not speak about ALL experimentals in general, but I know that MY airplane is a tougher, more responsive machine, built with care, by the guy who's butt is IN it when it's airborne. Can't get better quality control than that. The experimental world is typically driven by motivated, sincerely passionate builders/pilots who derive a significant portion of life satisfaction from their airplanes. I then postulate that the average experimental homebuilder/pilot is a more attentive, cautious and diligent pilot. He knows every nuance of his airplane, every noise, squeek, rumble and rattle. I can tell immediately if something isn't right with my RV. As a former C-172/Katana renter, I had no idea from one airplane to the next, just what was really going on with it. > >2. My particular plane is safer than other experimentals. A properly built RV is, IMHO, the safest kit aircraft out there. Load distribution is excellent, fastener density is good, no reliance upon !# #$*& plastic for structural integrity.... > > >Can I? Hell yeah. We're pilots. We are expected to be opinionated. ;) > > Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 Van's repeat offender program member. http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
Fuel boiling in the injector lines is a possibility. I have this problem after landing and about half way taxing to the hanger it starts this miss/RPM fluxuation. Its very annoying and I have done everything I can think of and nothing has fixed it. What helped the most was changing the injector Nozzles to the smallest size possible. The AFP injection came with .028 nozzles. I installed .022 and this helped the most. Just make sure your fuel flow is the same as before changing the nozzles. What this change does is increase the pressure in the injector lines thus raising the boiling point. BUT, I am now adjusting each cylinder so they all peak at the same fuel flow, by doing this I had to install larger nozzles in some cylinders which is making the problem worse again. > >All, my IO-360 has begun to run strange at low rpm after it has warmed up. I >noticed this when taxiing into the FBO yesterday - the engine would run >smooth, then it would drop rpm then pick back up again. At any thing above >about >1200-1300 rpm the engine is fine. > >Any thoughts about what could be the cause? Improper idle mixture adjustment >maybe? The engine should show a slight rise in rpm when the mixture lever is >brought back to idle cutoff, but doesn't, which is an indicator of idle >mixture problem (I think). > >Walt Shipley RV-8A 81 hrs > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
Might want to check compression. It is very possible to bend a rod this way. > >Listners (and Vans), > > I had an interesting experience last week with my RV7. I have the >IO306 200 HP engine installed with the induction air intake mounted on the >inlet ramp of the baffle. I parked the plane outside for three nights and it >was exposed to approx 3 inches of rainfall during that time. When I went to >start the engine, it rotated about two blades and then stopped. I got out >and tried to pull the prop through but it would not pull through. Hum--whats >going on here? > > I removed the cowling and the bottom plugs and was shocked to have >water come out of the two rear cylinders. I removed the plug on the bottom >of the sump, lifted the tail and drained about a quart if water out of the >induction sump. While I had the plugs out, I engaged the starter to force >any remaining water out of the cylinders. Luckily, the starter was not >damaged and upon reinstalling the plugs, the engine started and ran fine. > > I had never thought about water entering the induction system before >but you can bet I will have a cover over the air filter as well as inlet >plugs on my plane before I park it outside again. Hope this saves someone >some grief in the future. Vans, you might want to put a short blurb in the >RV ator about this. > > On the bright side, I found that I have very tight sealing fuel >filler caps as I had no water in the tanks. > >John Henley, N57LD, 210 Hrs > > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Subject: Re: RV7 and RV8 IO360 (200 HP) Air Inlet Problem
In a message dated 3/29/04 10:23:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time, bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com writes: > bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> > > Might want to check compression. It is very possible to bend a rod this way. > > > > > You would have to check compression the automobile way, which could be dangerous! It won't show on a leakdown test. Dan H RV-7A (almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: accident rate in experimentals
Michael: I gathered some safety data on RVs a few years ago. It won't answer all your questions, but I think it will help you quantify the risk of an RV vis-a-vis general aviation. http://www.vansairforce.org/articles/pilotage/pil_rv_safety.shtml Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LeastDrag93066(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Subject: Re: used MT prop for sale
In a message dated 03/29/2004 5:39:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, rv8tor(at)lazy8.net writes: Hi All I have for sale a 3-blade MT prop, MTV-12-B-183. This is the hydraulic constant-speed version, 72" dia. Works with McCauley or Woodward governors. Can you provide the full number? It should be MTV-12-B/183-?. The last number is the specific blade design number. Van's Aircraft advertises the MTV-12-B/183-59 propeller for the Lycoming 360 engine. That may be the full number if you purchased it from Van's Aircraft. One of my customers has the MTV-12-B/183-59d propeller. The "d" indicates a specific modification to the -59 blade design. Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LeastDrag93066(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
In a message dated 03/29/2004 7:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com writes: (Stuff Cut) I have this problem after landing and about half way taxing to the hanger it starts this miss/RPM fluxuation. Fuel Injector throttle bodies have internal fuel seals. When the seals fail, raw fuel is dumped from the throttle body into the air intake manifold. (No external leaks unless you have an intake manifold drain.) A symptom of this can be as you described above. A rough running engine (overly rich mixture from the additional fuel entering at the throttle body) at low power settings. Jim Ayers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
Interesting, woould leaning make a difference? > >In a message dated 03/29/2004 7:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, >bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com writes: > >(Stuff Cut) I have this problem >after landing and about half way taxing to the hanger it starts this >miss/RPM fluxuation. > >Fuel Injector throttle bodies have internal fuel seals. When the seals fail, >raw fuel is dumped from the throttle body into the air intake manifold. (No >external leaks unless you have an intake manifold drain.) > >A symptom of this can be as you described above. A rough running engine >(overly rich mixture from the additional fuel entering at the throttle body) >at >low power settings. > >Jim Ayers > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim and Bev Cone" <jimnbev(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Canopy Cutting
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I found a really good way to cut the canopy that is much easier than using the cutting disk that Van's provides. It allows cutting with one pass at a fairly high speed with little binding of the cutter. It cuts the Plexiglas like a hot knife through butter. I used a die grinder with a 1/8 inch collet and mounted one of the little one inch fiber cutting disks made for the Dremmel tool. Harbor Freight sells a very small die grinder kit that has several accessories including a 1/8 inch collet for $14.99. The item number is 47050-OVGA and is available online at Harborfreight.com. Jim Cone 3-Peat Offender ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LeastDrag93066(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
The Bendix injector on a Cherokee Arrow IO-360 engine leaked in the internal seals in the throttle body. The internal fuel leak added extra fuel into the air intake system. I believe that in flight, leaning the mixture would over lean the fuel injector fuel flow to compensate for the extra fuel in the intake system. Leaning the engine in flight wasn't a problem. However, taxiing on the ground at sea level with full rich mixture, the engine would run rich enough that it would quit. (I think the Oakland California Airport is near sea level.) On the Cherokee Arrow at idle, the extra fuel would leak out of the throttle body and into the airbox. It would then pour out of the airbox drain hole into the bottom of the cowl. And out the bottom of the cowl onto the ground. And that's how we found out why the engine quit as it was exiting the runway after landing at Oakland Airport. Jim Ayers ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Hmmm... Interesting. My understanding is that the RSA fuel servo is a pressure regulating device. It controls the amount of fuel being spewed from the end of the constant flow injector nozzles by adjusting the pressure in the fuel lines. The pressure is varied by the amount of air flow through the servo body that is sensed by it. It's possible that there is a leak in the fuel servo diaphragms, although this would result in a rich mixture across the board. The easiest way to check for this is to perform the coke bottle test. Place the disconnected end of each nozzle line in a empty coke bottle. Start the electric fuel pump with the mixture in idle cut off. Any fuel coming from the lines? If so, your servo needs overhaul. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> Interesting, woould leaning make a difference? > >In a message dated 03/29/2004 7:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, >bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com writes: <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> > >(Stuff Cut) I have this problem >after landing and about half way taxing to the hanger it starts this >miss/RPM fluxuation. > >Fuel Injector throttle bodies have internal fuel seals. When the seals fail, >raw fuel is dumped from the throttle body into the air intake manifold. (No >external leaks unless you have an intake manifold drain.) > >A symptom of this can be as you described above. A rough running engine >(overly rich mixture from the additional fuel entering at the throttle body) >at >low power settings. > >Jim Ayers > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I have the same situation and the same problem. Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 58 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem > > > > I have the Bendix RSA injection system. > > > > Walt > > > > If the problem is fuel boiling in the injector (or anything post servo) > lines, I believe that there is an improvement available. It seems like > I heard that there is some stronger spring that can be put into the > distribution block in (some) Bendix systems. This functions to increase > the pressures, thereby increasing the boiling temp. I would guess the > idle mixture would have to be adjusted to compensate. > > Others more knowledgeable than I need to comment. > > Alex Peterson > Maple Grove, MN > RV6-A N66AP 447 hours > > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Dont think this test would apply to AFP because the fuel flow never shuts off 100%. To kill the engine they have a bypass valve which stops the flow to the engine by returning the fuel back to a tank. > >Hmmm... Interesting. My understanding is that the RSA fuel servo is a >pressure regulating device. It controls the amount of fuel being spewed >from the end of the constant flow injector nozzles by adjusting the >pressure in the fuel lines. The pressure is varied by the amount of air >flow through the servo body that is sensed by it. It's possible that >there is a leak in the fuel servo diaphragms, although this would result >in a rich mixture across the board. The easiest way to check for this is >to perform the coke bottle test. Place the disconnected end of each >nozzle line in a empty coke bottle. Start the electric fuel pump with >the mixture in idle cut off. Any fuel coming from the lines? If so, your >servo needs overhaul. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Bilinski >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: IO-360 Engine problem > > ><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> > >Interesting, woould leaning make a difference? > >> >>In a message dated 03/29/2004 7:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, >>bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com writes: ><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> >> >>(Stuff Cut) I have this problem >>after landing and about half way taxing to the hanger it starts this >>miss/RPM fluxuation. >> >>Fuel Injector throttle bodies have internal fuel seals. When the seals >fail, >>raw fuel is dumped from the throttle body into the air intake manifold. >(No >>external leaks unless you have an intake manifold drain.) >> >>A symptom of this can be as you described above. A rough running >engine >>(overly rich mixture from the additional fuel entering at the throttle >body) >>at >>low power settings. >> >>Jim Ayers >> >> > > >Scott Bilinski >Eng dept 305 >Phone (858) 657-2536 >Pager (858) 502-5190 > > >= >= >= >= > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Gert <gert(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: scratching the canopy
Tom Isn't that way spray-lat was invented, you brush the latex stuff on the plexi, then work on it, it will keep the abbrasives away unless you really push on it. thomas a. sargent wrote: > > Maybe everybody on the list already knows this, but some of the new > folks might not. I found a way to scratch my canopy while I was sanding > the edges. > > When you get to the shaping of the edge of the canopy (rounding it off), > or any time you use coarse sand paper on the edge, be very careful how > you remove the dust that accumulates. I made a lot of fairly deep > scratches along the edge by wiping off the dust with my finger. It > looks like, and mostly is, just plexiglass dust, but apparently there is > some small amount of coarse grit that has popped off the sand paper > mixed in with it. If you press your finger firmly against the plexi and > wipe it along the edge, a few grains of abrasive will get caught between > your finger and the plexi resulting in deep scratches roughly parallel > to the edge. Use a brush. I figured it out too late. > > I am now paying for my sins by polishing these scratches out. Some are > so deep that I have to start with fine sand paper (600 - 1000) and then > use the Novus coarse scratch remover followed by the fine scratch > remover. It works but it's a lot of labor. If anybody knows a way to > mechanize this process, please do tell. > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: scratching the canopy
Date: Mar 29, 2004
> I am now paying for my sins by polishing these scratches out. > Some are > so deep that I have to start with fine sand paper (600 - > 1000) and then > use the Novus coarse scratch remover followed by the fine scratch > remover. It works but it's a lot of labor. If anybody knows > a way to > mechanize this process, please do tell. > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A Tom, use a product called Scratch-Off. It has four compounds, and a couple thingys to put on the electric drill. Only way to go. Aircraft Spruce sells them. The other hand rub one they have is hopeless. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Dynon EMI noise problem is fixed
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I've been waiting for Dynon's approval for almost a week to send this message...we (Dynon, Mike Stewart, and myself) had done some noise filter testing and I was keeping it under wraps until Doug Medema from Dynon gave me the go-ahead to spill my guts. I can't speak for Mike (hopefully he'll chime in), but here's my perspective... Dynon has come out with "the fix." http://www.rvproject.com/dongle.html It's an inline noise filter that plugs into the back of the EFIS, and your wiring harness plugs into the dongle. It couldn't get any simpler than that...and it couldn't be any easier to install. Dynon sent it to me last weekend, and I tried it right away. It works great -- the noise issues I was experiencing are gone when the dongle is in place. The photos show the test dongle...Doug mentioned the production version will be encased. I would direct your inquiries to Dynon for specifics. I just wanted to share the good news that the Dynon EMI noise problem appears to be ancient history! (NOTE: I am not affiliated with Dynon in any way other than being a satisfied customer.) I continue to be incredibly impressed by the customer support coming from companies, like Dynon, Advanced Control Systems, and B&C. I feel lucky that the homebuilt avionics/electronics industry is in a position to enable small companies like this to survive and still manage to treat the customer like a king. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
> > Interesting, woould leaning make a difference? > Presuming you are talking about leaning during ground operations, yes, it would probably make it worse. The fuel flow would be less; hence, more residence time for the fuel to get hot in the lines. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
> > Dont think this test would apply to AFP because the fuel flow > never shuts off 100%. To kill the engine they have a bypass > valve which stops the flow to the engine by returning the > fuel back to a tank. > Not true. The AFP instructions are very clear about this: the engine should kill if the mixture is pulled all the way back. The minimal fuel that goes through the system, at idle throttle setting, when the engine is not running, would probably not even run a lawn mower. The purge valve's function is to 1) prevent post shutdown fuel from percolating into the engine, and 2) allow one to pump cool fuel through the servo and other plumbing before a hot start. It is a convenient way to shut down the engine, also. Some of these things we talk about on this list can be quite important, and we need to avoid speculating. Someone might believe it without verification and bad things could happen. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
According to the archives, we went through this the first week of March. Here are some selected quotes from my Airflow Performance Installation & Service Manual: MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL, section 3-18 (page 20, revision B) ....When "ICO" is against the plastic stop, the fuel flow is shut off to the engine. There is approximately 1.0 to 3.0 PPH leakage in this position.... Purge Valve Assembly, Background, Section 3-40. (page 30, revision B) ...Engines, which use the high pressure diaphragm fuel pump, experience another problem, which influences the ease of restarting the engine. By their design the diaphragm fuel pump acts like an accumulator when the engine is shut down. This keeps the fuel pressure on the fuel controller, and leakage in the idle cut off circuit of the fuel controller will allow the fuel to bleed off into the engine. THIS CAN CAUSE RUN ON IN IDLE CUT OFF AND FLOODING OF THE ENGINE INITIALLY AFTER SHUT DOWN. (Emphasis added) OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING THE PURGE VALVE, section 5.5 (page 44 & 45, Revision C) 5.5. The following instructions are recommended procedures for operating engines with engine driven fuel pumps ... ENGINE SHUTDOWN * Bring engine to idle speed * Leave mixture control "FULL RICH" * Put purge valve control in to "OFF" position Terry RV-8A #80729 wiring Seattle > > Dont think this test would apply to AFP because the fuel flow > never shuts off 100%. To kill the engine they have a bypass > valve which stops the flow to the engine by returning the > fuel back to a tank. > Not true. The AFP instructions are very clear about this: the engine should kill if the mixture is pulled all the way back. The minimal fuel that goes through the system, at idle throttle setting, when the engine is not running, would probably not even run a lawn mower. The purge valve's function is to 1) prevent post shutdown fuel from percolating into the engine, and 2) allow one to pump cool fuel through the servo and other plumbing before a hot start. It is a convenient way to shut down the engine, also. Some of these things we talk about on this list can be quite important, and we need to avoid speculating. Someone might believe it without verification and bad things could happen. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN > > Dont think this test would apply to AFP because the fuel flow > never shuts off 100%. To kill the engine they have a bypass > valve which stops the flow to the engine by returning the > fuel back to a tank. > Not true. The AFP instructions are very clear about this: the engine should kill if the mixture is pulled all the way back. The minimal fuel that goes through the system, at idle throttle setting, when the engine is not running, would probably not even run a lawn mower. The purge valve's function is to 1) prevent post shutdown fuel from percolating into the engine, and 2) allow one to pump cool fuel through the servo and other plumbing before a hot start. It is a convenient way to shut down the engine, also. Some of these things we talk about on this list can be quite important, and we need to avoid speculating. Someone might believe it without verification and bad things could happen. Alex Peterson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
Date: Mar 29, 2004
> > According to the archives, we went through this the first > week of March. Here are some selected quotes from my Airflow > Performance Installation & Service Manual: > > MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL, section 3-18 (page 20, revision B) > ....When "ICO" is against the plastic stop, the fuel flow is > shut off to the engine. There is approximately 1.0 to 3.0 > PPH leakage in this position.... > > Purge Valve Assembly, Background, Section 3-40. (page 30, > revision B) ...Engines, which use the high pressure diaphragm > fuel pump, experience another problem, which influences the > ease of restarting the engine. By their design the diaphragm > fuel pump acts like an accumulator when the engine is shut > down. This keeps the fuel pressure on the fuel controller, > and leakage in the idle cut off circuit of the fuel > controller will allow the fuel to bleed off into the engine. > THIS CAN CAUSE RUN ON IN IDLE CUT OFF AND FLOODING OF THE > ENGINE INITIALLY AFTER SHUT DOWN. (Emphasis added) > > OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING THE PURGE VALVE, section 5.5 > (page 44 & 45, Revision C) > > 5.5. The following instructions are recommended procedures > for operating engines with engine driven fuel pumps ... > ENGINE SHUTDOWN > * Bring engine to idle speed > * Leave mixture control "FULL RICH" > * Put purge valve control in to "OFF" position > > Terry > Terry, I stand corrected, at least for the exact wording of the AFP manual. However, it is impossible to get an engine to idle with only 0.5 gph (3pph). So, any engine that continues to run with the mixture in idle cut off needs adjustment. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karie Daniel" <karie4(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Optional Side Step question
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I just spent the better part of this week installing the optional steps for my 7A and I'm impressed at how sturdy these things turned out. I'm also glad I took the time to do it. I ran in to a small problem though... I had to grind a small amount of the weld on one of the steps so the rivet would sit flush. Will this weaken the weld and cause the step to crack at the weld where I did the grinding? I can send a pic if anyone cares to see it. Thanks, Karie Daniel RV-7A QB in progress Sammamish, WA. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net>
Subject: Manual Elevator Trim
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the following: When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the nose of the plane will go DOWN. I had the Fuel Selector Plate (F-983A) engraved as per Van's Tech Rep (knob screwed IN/clockwise, nose down.... counter-clockwise, nose goes up) and I think this is backwards! Maybe I'm losing my mind.... Thanks, Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Manual Elevator Trim
Jack Lockamy wrote: > >Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the following: > >When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the nose of the plane will go DOWN. > >I had the Fuel Selector Plate (F-983A) engraved as per Van's Tech Rep (knob screwed IN/clockwise, nose down.... counter-clockwise, nose goes up) and I think this is backwards! > >Maybe I'm losing my mind.... > >Thanks, >Jack > > > Nope you had it engraved right... in -down out-up Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Manual Elevator Trim
Jack Lockamy wrote: > > Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the > following: > > When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the > plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the > nose of the plane will go DOWN. Nope. Clockwise (in) is nose down. Works the same direction as the control stick. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: Hal / Carol Kempthorne <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Optional Side Step question
At 07:59 PM 3/29/2004, you wrote: > >I just spent the better part of this week installing the optional steps >for my 7A and I'm impressed at how sturdy these things turned out. I'm >also glad I took the time to do it. I ran in to a small problem though... >I had to grind a small amount of the weld on one of the steps so the rivet >would sit flush. > >Will this weaken the weld and cause the step to crack at the weld where I >did the grinding? I can send a pic if anyone cares to see it. Yes. After about 1000 hours cracks will appear and you can grin while repairing them. If you haven't built several other RV's by then. Move on towards the test phase! K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2004
From: linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Optional Side Step question
Karie, a weld is only as strong as the thickness of the metal adjacent to the weld. As an illustration (well a poor one is better than none!) let's say that you had 100% penetration .... the weld puddle went all the way to the lower surface.... and the thickness of the weld was twice the thickness of the initial material. the weld will only be as strong as the initial material ..... and if you ground off the excess weld material .... it would still be as strong. Proper dressing of the ground weld is important as stress cracks can occur along the 'grinding marks'. Best of luck! Linn Karie Daniel wrote: > >I just spent the better part of this week installing the optional steps for my 7A and I'm impressed at how sturdy these things turned out. I'm also glad I took the time to do it. I ran in to a small problem though... I had to grind a small amount of the weld on one of the steps so the rivet would sit flush. > >Will this weaken the weld and cause the step to crack at the weld where I did the grinding? I can send a pic if anyone cares to see it. > >Thanks, > >Karie Daniel >RV-7A QB in progress >Sammamish, WA. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Manual Elevator Trim
Date: Mar 29, 2004
I just installed my manual elev trim cable in my RV-6. When turn knob CW it goes IN and extends TAB UP which applies force to move ELEVATOR DOWN, which LOWERS NOSE. I was waiting to get a picture to send before making this announcement, but here it is: I and some other folks like the "Cessna Trim Wheel" ergonomics - roll wheel fwd, nose goes down. I used the std Van's trim cable, secured it to front of seat/floor pan F-639? that slopes up/fwd and hangs over spar & F-604. The knob is about on the centerline of the fuselage, for access by pilot and passenger. The cable then runs (out in the open) left along spar/F-604 and curves aft along pilot side of fuselage, aft beside seat back into "tunnel" through slot cut in tunnel cover and along side elevator push tube through the std hole for the cable, and on, as per plans. - This orients the Van's knob to work just like the Cessna "wheel" - roll it fwd for nose down. I have Autocad .dwg drawings of the two brackets and their location on F-639. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> Subject: RV-List: Manual Elevator Trim > > Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the following: > > When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the nose of the plane will go DOWN. > > I had the Fuel Selector Plate (F-983A) engraved as per Van's Tech Rep (knob screwed IN/clockwise, nose down.... counter-clockwise, nose goes up) and I think this is backwards! > > Maybe I'm losing my mind.... > > Thanks, > Jack > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Schlotthauer" <rv7maker(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Dynon EMI noise problem is fixed
Date: Mar 29, 2004
Dan, Any word if they will be sending these out to all their customers? >From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: RV-List: Dynon EMI noise problem is fixed >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:14:47 -0800 > > >I've been waiting for Dynon's approval for almost a week to send this >message...we (Dynon, Mike Stewart, and myself) had done some noise filter >testing and I was keeping it under wraps until Doug Medema from Dynon gave >me the go-ahead to spill my guts. I can't speak for Mike (hopefully he'll >chime in), but here's my perspective... > >Dynon has come out with "the fix." http://www.rvproject.com/dongle.html >It's an inline noise filter that plugs into the back of the EFIS, and your >wiring harness plugs into the dongle. It couldn't get any simpler than >that...and it couldn't be any easier to install. Dynon sent it to me last >weekend, and I tried it right away. It works great -- the noise issues I >was experiencing are gone when the dongle is in place. > >The photos show the test dongle...Doug mentioned the production version >will >be encased. I would direct your inquiries to Dynon for specifics. > >I just wanted to share the good news that the Dynon EMI noise problem >appears to be ancient history! (NOTE: I am not affiliated with Dynon in >any >way other than being a satisfied customer.) > >I continue to be incredibly impressed by the customer support coming from >companies, like Dynon, Advanced Control Systems, and B&C. I feel lucky >that >the homebuilt avionics/electronics industry is in a position to enable >small >companies like this to survive and still manage to treat the customer like >a >king. > >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com > > http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Manual Elevator Trim
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Your second sentence correctly reflects the operation of the elevator trim knob. The trim cable is attached to the underside of the trim tab. Therefore, if you push on the knob that action "lengthens" the cable or pushes on the underside of the trim tab forcing the trim tab upward. The air stream force on the trim tab (while it is up) forces the elevator down. Of course, when the elevator goes down, the tail plane goes up and the nose of the aircraft points downward. The opposite happens when the knob is pulled. Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> Subject: RV-List: Manual Elevator Trim > > Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the following: > > When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the nose of the plane will go DOWN. > > I had the Fuel Selector Plate (F-983A) engraved as per Van's Tech Rep (knob screwed IN/clockwise, nose down.... counter-clockwise, nose goes up) and I think this is backwards! > > Maybe I'm losing my mind.... > > Thanks, > Jack > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DFaile(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 03/29/04
I am looking for information on the Schroth Restraint System seat belts. They used to be available through Morris Technologies, Inc. Can somebody please let me know who is now repping these seat belts for the RV's. A response, off list, to DFaile(at)aol.com is acceptable. Thanks, david faile fairfield ct rv6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Huft" <rv8tor(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: used MT prop for sale
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Jim, you are correct, it is the -59 blade, and I did buy it from Van's. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of LeastDrag93066(at)aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: used MT prop for sale In a message dated 03/29/2004 5:39:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, rv8tor(at)lazy8.net writes: Hi All I have for sale a 3-blade MT prop, MTV-12-B-183. This is the hydraulic constant-speed version, 72" dia. Works with McCauley or Woodward governors. Can you provide the full number? It should be MTV-12-B/183-?. The last number is the specific blade design number. Van's Aircraft advertises the MTV-12-B/183-59 propeller for the Lycoming 360 engine. That may be the full number if you purchased it from Van's Aircraft. One of my customers has the MTV-12-B/183-59d propeller. The "d" indicates a specific modification to the -59 blade design. Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Manual Elevator Trim
Date: Mar 30, 2004
That is backwards for elevator trim. Clockwise is IN or forward and just like the stick, is nose DOWN. Out is back or CCW is up just like the stick. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,449 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> Subject: RV-List: Manual Elevator Trim Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:22:12 -0800 Can anyone using Van's manual elevator trim cable please confirm the following: When the trim tab knob is screwed IN (clockwise) the nose of the plane will go UP, when the knob is screwed counter-clockwise.... the nose of the plane will go DOWN. I had the Fuel Selector Plate (F-983A) engraved as per Van's Tech Rep (knob screwed IN/clockwise, nose down.... counter-clockwise, nose goes up) and I think this is backwards! Maybe I'm losing my mind.... Thanks, Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dynon EMI noise problem is fixed
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Yes Mike will chime in. Here is my update to Doug. Bottom line, my noise is gone. ======= Doug, Preliminary results show you have struck gold. Flew 2 hours yesterday, and ran through my test routine on the ground and only the barest minimum of noise can now be detected. I did run " braid from a stud post on the unit to a good ground source. Did not test whether or not that had any effect. Next time I am in there I will remove it and see if there is any difference. But, looks like you have a real good solution for me. I did try both shielded and non-shielded to the remote compass and there was no difference(with the new dongle in place). Also I ran the power from the dynon back to the main buss and that too had no effect(with the dongle in place). So here are my findings. Before filter: Shielding wire to compass helped Moving to another power buss helped After filter: Going back to main buss had no effect Shielded or non shielded also had no effect Conclusion: EMI filter working very well. No need to shield wire to compass or run power from another buss While sitting quietly on the ramp, engine off, and pulling squelch on a com, and turning Dynon on and off. Only the slightest change in white noise can be observerd. Mostly on the lower 121-118 freq range. That's real good news. So, when you are ready, ill let others know my results. Good work Doug. ========= Mike Stewart -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: RV-List: Dynon EMI noise problem is fixed I've been waiting for Dynon's approval for almost a week to send this message...we (Dynon, Mike Stewart, and myself) had done some noise filter testing and I was keeping it under wraps until Doug Medema from Dynon gave me the go-ahead to spill my guts. I can't speak for Mike (hopefully he'll chime in), but here's my perspective... Dynon has come out with "the fix." http://www.rvproject.com/dongle.html It's an inline noise filter that plugs into the back of the EFIS, and your wiring harness plugs into the dongle. It couldn't get any simpler than that...and it couldn't be any easier to install. Dynon sent it to me last weekend, and I tried it right away. It works great -- the noise issues I was experiencing are gone when the dongle is in place. The photos show the test dongle...Doug mentioned the production version will be encased. I would direct your inquiries to Dynon for specifics. I just wanted to share the good news that the Dynon EMI noise problem appears to be ancient history! (NOTE: I am not affiliated with Dynon in any way other than being a satisfied customer.) I continue to be incredibly impressed by the customer support coming from companies, like Dynon, Advanced Control Systems, and B&C. I feel lucky that the homebuilt avionics/electronics industry is in a position to enable small companies like this to survive and still manage to treat the customer like a king. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: IO-360 Engine problem
> >Not true. The AFP instructions are very clear about this: the engine >should kill if the mixture is pulled all the way back. The minimal fuel >that goes through the system, at idle throttle setting, when the engine >is not running, would probably not even run a lawn mower. Interesting when I called them they told me NOT to stop the engine this way because it will not be clean stoppage of the fuel, and the engine may bump and stumble. Use the purge/bypass valve only. Although I guess your right the engine will still stop this way but boy does it bump and stumble. I also have dual EI I wonder if this makes it worse by being able to ignite a mixture that mags would have trouble with? My system is 1 1/2 years old maybe our manuals are different? If I remember I will read that part again. Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Gene Gottschalk <geneg(at)sled.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RV6A Project For Sale
I have an RV6A project for sale. The empanage is done. The left wing is done. The right wing is done except for the main skins and aileron. The fuselage is in the jig and ready for the wing attachment and gear drilling to be turned over and the fuselage top started. It includes the finishing kit and every thing needed to finish except the firewall forward and radios. It includes almost every option Van's offers. Please contact me back channel if interested. It is located in the Baltimore/Washing DC area. Contact me at: geneg(at)sled.gsfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: G B <microsys(at)alltel.net>
Subject: bondo
Hello, I have read that Bondo will absorb moisture, and, if true, would be a poor filler to use on airplanes. As one who has built a LongEz as well, I would prefer using dry micro made with epoxy, or even using phenolic bubbles with epoxy instead, Glen RV9 tail ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Manual Elevator Trim
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: "Lockamy, Jack L" <jack.lockamy(at)navy.mil>
Thanks David, Jerry S., and Sam B. for clearing this up for me.... Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Frederick Oldenburg <foldenburg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Proseal
I'm about to start my rudder. I understand that you are supposed to use a sealant (usually proseal) on the trailing edge. I noticed that there are two different stock numbers for this in the Spruce catalog, one for a pint and one for a quart. I have never used this stuff before. Will a pint be enough for just the rudder? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ps890.php Thanks, Fred Fred Oldenburg N270S (Reserved) RV-7A - Empennage http://www.rv.oldsack.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Crosley, Rich" <RCROSLEY(at)HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM>
Subject: Re: Canopy Cutting
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Another great canopy cutting method is to use a Roto-Zip tool with a 1/4" mandrel and a cutting wheel. A cutting wheel a little thicker than Van's works best, Van's wheel tends to wobble at high RPM's. Also works great on fiberglass. Rich Crosley RV-8, baffles and cowl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Was bondo, now Plastic Planes
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Glen, I've got a friend starting to build a Long-Ez (I know, I know... "Friends don't let friends build plastic planes"). Got any recommendations for a list or chat group he can go to for support/camaraderie, he's stuck out in the middle of nowhere (Barstow area)? Thanks, Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: G B <microsys(at)alltel.net> Subject: RV-List: bondo > > Hello, > > I have read that Bondo will absorb moisture, and, if true, would be a > poor filler to use > on airplanes. As one who has built a LongEz as well, I would prefer > using dry micro made with > epoxy, or even using phenolic bubbles with epoxy instead, > > Glen > RV9 tail > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Proseal
Fred That sealer is to help get at straight trailing edge. If you drill carefully and install the rivets from alternating sides you don't need it. A pint is enough but some of those pints come in tubes that require mixing the entire thing all at once. Carroll Jernigan 7A Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Proseal
In a message dated 3/30/04 10:35:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time, foldenburg(at)earthlink.net writes: > > > > I'm about to start my rudder. I understand that you are supposed to use a > sealant (usually proseal) on the trailing edge. I noticed that there are two > different stock numbers for this in the Spruce catalog, one for a pint and one > for a quart. I have never used this stuff before. Will a pint be enough for > just the rudder? > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ps890.php > > Thanks, > > Fred > Fred, A pint will be way, way more than enough. Based on some postings on this list though, I just built my replacement RV-9 rudder and didn't use any sealer. The trick is to start in the center and alternate sides that the shop head goes on. I got a "little wavy" trailing edge but it is almost perfectly straight on the average. Maybe I didn't countersink the EX piece enough, or did something else wrong, but it is acceptable, I think. I don't think Pro Seal would have helped. I did use a blob of blue RTV between the stiffeners at the rear though -- to avoid cracking that has been a problem on RV-6s. Dan Hopper RV-7A (almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net>
Subject: Re: Proseal
Date: Mar 30, 2004
FYI....It's cheaper through Vans. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Oldenburg" <foldenburg(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RV-List: Proseal > > I'm about to start my rudder. I understand that you are supposed to use a sealant (usually proseal) on the trailing edge. I noticed that there are two different stock numbers for this in the Spruce catalog, one for a pint and one for a quart. I have never used this stuff before. Will a pint be enough for just the rudder? > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ps890.php > > Thanks, > > Fred > > Fred Oldenburg > N270S (Reserved) RV-7A - Empennage > http://www.rv.oldsack.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: G B <microsys(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Was bondo, now Plastic Planes
Chuck, Yes, I believe the list is canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com It is one I used to subscribe to. I am up to the point of adding the tops to my fuel tanks, which is the last construction step. Then it is filling and sanding, primer, electrical, instruments and wiring. I have no engine for it either. I decided recently that I could not ignore the ease of sale, and resale value of the RV series. I could spend $30k on the longez and only get 30k back out of it. Where I could make money on the RV9! Glen C. Rabaut wrote: > >Glen, > > I've got a friend starting to build a Long-Ez (I know, I know... >"Friends don't let friends build plastic planes"). Got any recommendations >for a list or chat group he can go to for support/camaraderie, he's stuck >out in the middle of nowhere (Barstow area)? Thanks, > > Chuck > >----- Original Message ----- >From: G B <microsys(at)alltel.net> >To: RV List >Subject: RV-List: bondo > > > > >> >>Hello, >> >>I have read that Bondo will absorb moisture, and, if true, would be a >>poor filler to use >>on airplanes. As one who has built a LongEz as well, I would prefer >>using dry micro made with >>epoxy, or even using phenolic bubbles with epoxy instead, >> >>Glen >>RV9 tail >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net>
Subject: Pitot tube bracket
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Thanks to all who participated in the flush pitot tube conversation. I had a friend give me a regular old stick out in the wind heated pitot so I'm going to use it (AN 5812 type). I dont however have a pitot bracket to mount it with. The instructions in the box say to build one using streamline tubing (2.023 X .857 X .049 wall) Spruce has it but the minimum cut charge is more money than the steel. Anybody out there have some of this stuff you would be willing to part with? I need about 6 inches or so. If not I will probably just buy a Gretz kit and be done with it. I wonder if my wife would notice if I cut a chunk out of the middle of her bike frame? Hmmmmm..... Thanks again ....Evan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: RV-7 Props
> >Hi Harry- > >Vy after numerous climbs from 2000' shows 1200fpm max. Most runs were at >about 40-50 OAT and higher than average baros. This might not sound like much >compared to a 180 hp C.S., but as far as I'm concerned, it's going up plenty >quick. Once the pants are on, I'll let y'all know what the real deal is... > >Overall, very happy with the prop! Still blows me away that I can climb out >solo, turn x-wind, and look down at the whole airport from pattern altitude! >Gawd what an airplane! 8-) > >Mark Mark, Are you using the VSI to figure out your rate of climb, or are you using the altimeter and stop watch? VSIs may have large errors, so it is much more accurate to use the altimeter and stop watch. What rpm are you getting at Vy? -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Pitot tube bracket
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Hello Evan, I made mine with .032 aluminum scrap and shaped it to conform to the Cessna pitot that I have. A bit of welding done by an associate to close the tapered end and add the flush mount bracket, cost me a sandwich and coffee. To get an idea of how flimsy the FAA approved Cessna mount is, lightly grasp one that is mounted and operational (with owner permission of course) and give it a wiggle. For the higher speed aircraft somewhat stronger than that will be required. In comparison to Cessna mine with doublers is on there!! almost suitable for tie down. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message -----, From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net> Subject: RV-List: Pitot tube bracket > > Thanks to all who participated in the flush pitot tube conversation. I had a friend give me a regular old stick out in the wind heated pitot so I'm going to use it (AN 5812 type). I dont however have a pitot bracket to mount it with. The instructions in the box say to build one using streamline tubing (2.023 X .857 X .049 wall) Spruce has it but the minimum cut charge is more money than the steel. Anybody out there have some of this stuff you would be willing to part with? I need about 6 inches or so. If not I will probably just buy a Gretz kit and be done with it. I wonder if my wife would notice if I cut a chunk out of the middle of her bike frame? Hmmmmm..... > > Thanks again ....Evan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the long route. All opinions appreciated. Thanks, Tommy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 30, 2004
> >Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and >deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless >you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some >opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I >know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the >long route. All opinions appreciated. > >Thanks, >Tommy The prepunched holes are not properly sized for the dimple die pilot. So, there will be some localized stress risers and cracking around the hole. There was a set of pics posted somewhere recently with super close-up images. Sure enough. Cracks around the hole perimeter. Were they bad enough to possibly someday elongate into a problem? I have no idea. After building an RV8 (prepunched skins but no matched hole structural members), I am much more tolerant of less than textbook perfect form in riveting, deburring and smoothing. Still, I don't personally feel comfortable with smashing that dimple pilot through holes that aren't large enough to accept them. To each his own. You have to be able to sleep at night with your workmanship standards. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 elevators ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Bottom line.....Dont take the short cut! > >Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and >deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless >you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some >opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I >know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the >long route. All opinions appreciated. > >Thanks, >Tommy > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 30, 2004
"To each his own. You have to be able to sleep at night with your > workmanship standards." Forget the "...sleep at night..." stuff, It's when the "G" meter starts passing thru 3 or 4 that would concern me. *Just an opinion that's guaranteed to be worth at least as much as you paid for it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Denk <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > > > > >Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and > >deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless > >you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some > >opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I > >know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the > >long route. All opinions appreciated. > > > >Thanks, > >Tommy > > The prepunched holes are not properly sized for the dimple die pilot. So, > there will be some localized stress risers and cracking around the hole. > There was a set of pics posted somewhere recently with super close-up > images. Sure enough. Cracks around the hole perimeter. Were they bad > enough to possibly someday elongate into a problem? I have no idea. > > After building an RV8 (prepunched skins but no matched hole structural > members), I am much more tolerant of less than textbook perfect form in > riveting, deburring and smoothing. Still, I don't personally feel > comfortable with smashing that dimple pilot through holes that aren't large > enough to accept them. > > To each his own. You have to be able to sleep at night with your > workmanship standards. > > Brian Denk > RV8 N94BD > RV10 '51 elevators > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Tim Coldenhoff <rv9a_000(at)deru.com>
Subject: Re: CNC Panel cutting
Tommy Walker wrote: > > Two or three weeks ago there was a thread on the list about a fellow who, from a "panel builder" file, would auto-cad a full scale panel drawing. Then after the builder was satisfied he would CNC cut your panel. > > Does anyone have information on how to contact this fellow? Ross Schlotthauer http://www.experimentalair.com/ I just sent him my panel to be cut about a week ago. -- Tim Coldenhoff www.deru.com/~rv9a 90338 - electrical/finishing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Todd" <motodd(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: K&N air filter E-3450 deal(?)
Date: Mar 30, 2004
I was shopping for a replacement K&N air filter today on the internet and came across what appears to be a good deal for anyone interested in having a spare K&N E-3450, the standard air filter that fits the FAB360 air box set up(Filter Height: 2.5 in (64 mm)Inside Diameter: 6.25 in (159 mm)Outside Diameter: 7.75 in (197 mm)). The filter on my RV4 has 1200+ hours on it and the wire mesh is beginning to show a couple of tiny fatigue cracks in it. A place called Pierce Manifolds in Gilroy, CA has a close-out clearance sale listing on their website for E-3450 filters at $4 each (Van's lists them for $27.83). I called and they said that they had ordered a bunch by mistake and had been unable to find a use for them. I ordered a few for my local RV pals and myself. If anybody else wants to give these guys a try, their order desk phone number is 800 874 3728. Mark RV4 KAWO ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Dan DeNeal <rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
I am having problems finding a place to buy those #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. I have checked Wicks on line catalog and came up blank. I bought a big package at OSH several years ago for my wing tips and now that supply is running out. Dan DeNeal rv6a N256GD __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Tommy, The first that I heard of not match drilling was at either OSH or Sun-n-Fun a year or two ago. It was from Jan Ennenfelner who at that time was building a -9. He said that he looked under a microscope (or maybe it was a magnifier) and couldn't tell the difference whether he deburred or not. I got home and tried it. He was right. But, you know what, after that I deburred before and after I dimpled the holes! Dan Hopper RV-7A (almost done and sleeping very well!) In a message dated 3/30/04 6:06:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, tie-norman(at)comcast.net writes: > > Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and > deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless > you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some > opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I > know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the > long route. All opinions appreciated. > > Thanks, > Tommy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: CNC Panel cutting
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Here's another one, an RV-8 builder/pilot in the Everett Washington area: http://rvwoody.com/ Have a look at his website. Terry Two or three weeks ago there was a thread on the list about a fellow who, from a "panel builder" file, would auto-cad a full scale panel drawing. Then after the builder was satisfied he would CNC cut your panel. Does anyone have information on how to contact this fellow? Tommy Walker 6A, Ridgetop, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Richard Scott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Based on my limited experience, I think time saved by not drilling & deburring is insignificant. Suppose you spend 20 seconds drilling and deburring each hole & that's probably about twice what you would really spend drilling & deburring, but we have to add in time to cleco things together & take them apart. For 10,000 rivets, you save 55 hours on the whole project. A project in which you invest, say, 2,000 hours. You have saved 3% of your time. Now, you go to dimple. My male die goes into the hole easily. Yours does not fit in the hole & you have to force it in. When I press the go lever on my pneumatic squeezer, depending on part orientation, the aluminum sitting on the male die, which is sitting on the ram, gets pushed straight into the female die, every time, 100% so far. Yours may sometimes slip out of position unless you spent time forcing your die into the hole. And to avoid this kind of problem, you have to take more time to be more careful. Hmmm, that's time you subtract from that 55 hours you saved. Plus you have to add in time to replace or repair the parts you ruin because the part slipped off the die & you got a big dent where you shouldn't. If time is so important, get a pneumatic squeezer. Dimpling goes really fast. Get an adjustable ram for it from Avery & you save adjustment time & lots of frustration. Get a pneumatic cleco tool from The Yard for $25. Makes pulling out large numbers of clecos go faster & it's easier on your hands. Get a number of drills. Set up one with a 3/32 bit, another with 1/8, etc. Put a coarse or medium belt on your belt sander. Read instructions ahead of time. Order "optional" rivets & other things before you need them so you don't stall waiting for parts orders. If you enjoy music, get a good stereo & it will make all that drilling & deburring go faster & you won't care. Richard Scott 9 Emp. & wings are in the barn, waiting for me. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Exhaust Ball Joints
Date: Mar 30, 2004
On my Vetterman exhaust system 300 hrs, I notice the ball joints on both sides of the engine seem to be getting loose. How much play should be expected to be normal. Mine are loose enough that you can rotate them by hand, is this normal wear? My pipes are secured the old way by clamps at the aft end of the pipes at the lower fuselage. Any help appreciated. Harvey Sigmon RV-6A N602RV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert E. Lynch" <rv6lynch(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Dan try microfastners.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Garey Wittich <gareywittich2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: A GUIDE TO AIRCRAFT PAINTING & CORROSION CONTROL
rv7-list(at)matronics.com, rv8-list(at)matronics.com For helpful information see: See Nov 03 Archieves: "A GUIDE TO AIRCRAFT PAINTING & CORROSION CONTROL" __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mauri Morin" <maurv8(at)bigsky.net>
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Dan Try http://www.microfasteners.com/ Mauri RV-8 wings (forever) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan DeNeal" <rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com> Subject: RV-List: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws? > > I am having problems finding a place to buy those > #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. > > I have checked Wicks on line catalog and came up > blank. > > I bought a big package at OSH several years ago for my > wing tips and now that supply is running out. > > Dan DeNeal > rv6a N256GD > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I purchased mine at Cleaveland Aircraft Tools. They still have them in their catalog as a kit and I bet you can purchase them as screws only. http://www5.mailordercentral.com/clevtool/prodinfo.asp?number=WHS220&variation=&aitem=17&mitem=17 Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,449 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Dan DeNeal <rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com> Subject: RV-List: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws? Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:27:12 -0800 (PST) I am having problems finding a place to buy those #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. I have checked Wicks on line catalog and came up blank. I bought a big package at OSH several years ago for my wing tips and now that supply is running out. Dan DeNeal rv6a N256GD __________________________________ http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N223RV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: "Warm" master relay
rv-list(at)matronics.com, vansairforce(at)yahoogroups.com My friend has a newly aquired RV-6 and has noticed the master relay gets "very warm" while flying. Does anyone know if this is normal, or if there could be an issue? I cannot get to my master relay in my -4 due to it being covered by my center console. Thanks for any help! -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 Flying N213RV RV-10 Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N223RV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Goodyear Flight Custom III Tires
Everyone at my airport swears they get 3X the tire wear with the Goodyear Flight Custom III tires. Has anyone tried these, and do they fit in the wheel pants? I've heard horror stories of people trying new tires and having them wear holes in the wheel pants. Thanks -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 Flying N213RV RV-10 Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: [ H.Ivan Haecker ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: H.Ivan Haecker Subject: The Other Two Best RVs... http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/baremetl@gvtc.com.03.30.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
In a message dated 3/30/04 4:28:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com writes: << I am having problems finding a place to buy those #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. >> Try Cleveland Tool. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, final assembly ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peruccaj(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
I get all mine at the local boat store. They are of high quality but not cheap. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Re: CNC Panel cutting
Tommy Walker wrote: > >Two or three weeks ago there was a thread on the list about a fellow who, from a "panel builder" file, would auto-cad a full scale panel drawing. Then after the builder was satisfied he would CNC cut your panel. > >Does anyone have information on how to contact this fellow? > >Tommy Walker >6A, Ridgetop, TN > > You can try http://www.affordablepanels.com/custom_work.htm also. I'm not sure if he does the stock panels, but zip off an email and ask. Good price. I might be sending mine to him soon. -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim and Bev Cone" <jimnbev(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix
Date: Mar 30, 2004
Use 80 grit sandpaper on the aluminum and you will have no problems with adhesion. Jim Cone 3-Peat Offender ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2004
From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson(at)consolidated.net>
Subject: Re: "Warm" master relay
N223RV(at)aol.com wrote: > > My friend has a newly aquired RV-6 and has noticed the master relay gets > "very warm" while flying. Does anyone know if this is normal, or if there could > be an issue? I cannot get to my master relay in my -4 due to it being covered > by my center console. > > Thanks for any help! > > -Mike Kraus > N223RV RV-4 Flying > N213RV RV-10 Empennage Mine Runs HOT. It is not too hot to touch, but it is too hot to keep holding on to. I was concerned about it. Haven't flown yet, (I'm starting to wonder if I will?? ) I called Van's and I was told " don't worry about it". I have left it on for days while burning in the solid state stuff. It hasn't burned up yet. Phil in Illinois ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
In a message dated 3/30/2004 4:28:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com writes: I am having problems finding a place to buy those #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. ========================= Try Olander listed in the Yeller Pages. GV (RV-6A N1GV flying 685 hrs) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DFaile(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Scroth Seat Belts
Looking for the source of Schroth seat belts for RV's. Does anybody have a contact name and address? david faile rv6 fairfield ct ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Scroth Seat Belts
Date: Mar 31, 2004
David, We got our's from Team Rocket. They are Hooker belts with the Schroth buckle - excellent quality and considerably less expensive. You can also call Hooker direct. In either case, they have a great selection of belt and pad colors. Good Building, Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A (see you at S-N-F) >From: DFaile(at)aol.com >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Scroth Seat Belts >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:28:58 EST > > >Looking for the source of Schroth seat belts for RV's. Does anybody have a >contact name and address? > >david faile >rv6 >fairfield ct > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
After three years of building my slow build here is my somewhat experienced opinion: Please, above all else Tommy, consider the advice of the plane's designer. If Vans instructs it should be drilled and deburred with his design and materials, then that should tell you something. If Vans says it is optional, then you can have some confidence in taking whichever route you choose. My concern is the plane's design and the experience behind the design and how it will stand up not only on first flight -- but 10, or 20 years from now if micro metal tears begin to corrode and rivet strength is reduced. However, it is your plane and Vans did not make you sign a contract stating we will build it per his instructions. If you deviate from the designer's building plan, in all honesty -- you should stand ready to have those fully displayed to anyone who rides with you or to whom you entertain selling the plane to at a later time and your insurance company. I think those things right there make the drilling and deburring worth your time, not counting the added risk on the lives of you and your co-pilot. JMHO. Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak JeffRose Flightline Interiors Firewall Forward, Wiring ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman(at)comcast.net> Subject: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > > Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and > deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless > you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some > opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I > know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the > long route. All opinions appreciated. > > Thanks, > Tommy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Scroth Seat Belts
David, check Aircraft Spruce, page 178. Walt Shipley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: RV-7 Props
In a message dated 3/30/04 4:30:15 PM Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes: > Are you using the VSI to figure out your rate of climb, or are you > using the altimeter and stop watch? > > VSIs may have large errors, so it is much more accurate to use the > altimeter and stop watch. > > What rpm are you getting at Vy? All data based on testing using Mike Stewarts test cards. Climbs started at 1500', speed established, timed for 1 minute after passing through 2000'. Also do not have leg fairings or pants installed yet. I am using dual plenums, which may be affecting speeds, but no way to confirm. 120 mph = 900' 110 mph = 1100' 100 mph = 1150' 90 mph = 1200' RPM on all climbs were in the neighborhood of 2200-2250, IIRC (did not record, too busy trying to maintian airspeed- I know, Bombardier wouldn't ask me back!) I made a few informal tests a few weeks later which seemed to confim the above numbers. Seems fairly in line with other's results considering I'm seeing 175+ mph @ 2500' and 2700+ rpm. (a/s checked multiple times with gps runs per M.S. test cards and is in close agreement with a/s indicated by PCFlightSystems airdata interface) Does this sound about right? Mark - 150 hp -6A, Craig Catto 66x66 3-blade ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lenleg(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Goodyear Flight Custom III Tires
In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:26:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, N223RV(at)aol.com writes: > Everyone at my airport swears they get 3X the tire wear with the Goodyear > Flight Custom III tires. Has anyone tried these, and do they fit in the > wheel > pants? I've heard horror stories of people trying new tires and having them > > wear holes in the wheel pants. Thanks > > -Mike Kraus > N223RV RV-4 Flying > N213RV RV-10 Empennage > Mike: I have these ... my Aero Trainers from Vans only lasted less than 100 hrs ... I have the Flight Custom IIIs with over 125 hrs on them and absolutely no sign of wear. I used the no leak tubes from Michelin and hardly ever have to put air in the tires. Love them. Len Leggette, RV-8A Greensboro, NC N910LL 222 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix
I don't think I'd use 80 grit on a stressed skin. I agree that it should work fine to enhance adhesion but I'd be concerned about stress risers and future cracks. Dave RV6 So Cal EAA Technical Counselor Jim and Bev Cone wrote: > >Use 80 grit sandpaper on the aluminum and you will have no problems with adhesion. > >Jim Cone >3-Peat Offender > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: engine woes...
vansairforce So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive paperweight for a while... I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I broke two 3/32" dimple dies by punching them into holes that were too tight. They are hardened and the male tip fractures & breaks off. Cleveland tools replaced them for me free of charge, but I now drill all holes per the plan instructions. Just another tidbit to add to the sage advice already dispensed on this topic. Dave Reel - RV8A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
Bill VonDane wrote: > > So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and > found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't > have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive > paperweight for a while... > > I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting > old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... > > http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm > > -Bill VonDane Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it. You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize service and resale, the overhaul might be in order. Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you have access to somebody with Lycoming experience. Plus, the satisfaction of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence in your plane. Here is the link to my engine rebuild: http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine! Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I had a '73 Mercedes 450SE gasoline burning V-8. Had some sensor problems that caused it not to run too well in winter and consequently, car didn't get driven much. Retired from AF, moved to warmer climate and had time to do some checking when it seemed never to run right anymore - found lots of flat spots on pax side cam lobes and replaced cam shaft. Used crocus cloth and polished pilot side cam lobes - then drilled larger hole into cam support block to match size of hole in V-8 block, to increase oil flow to the side that failed prematurely. On a VW engine, had spalling of cam bearing shells - found that only 1 side of crankcase had the little oil slot under the hole in bearing shell - other side never got oil!! So, used Dremel and cut the little v-groove into "plain" side of case so oil traveled around to both shells and came out hole in middle of both instead of just 1. But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes... > > Bill VonDane wrote: > > > > > So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and > > found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't > > have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive > > paperweight for a while... > > > > I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting > > old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... > > > > http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm > > > > -Bill VonDane > > > Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found > when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam > that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those > lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is > probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it > was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it. > > You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank > loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install > a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back > together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many > more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize > service and resale, the overhaul might be in order. > > Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the > case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the > cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you > have access to somebody with Lycoming experience. Plus, the satisfaction > of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence > in your plane. > > Here is the link to my engine rebuild: > > http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm > > Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine! > > Sam Buchanan > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
I was advised by an engineer at Van's that match drilling is required to remove the work-hardened area around the punched holes, and that their tests indicated failure to do so would significantly reduce the fatigue life of the airframe. That opinion is from an experienced engineer with inside knowledge, and is consistent with my understanding of metallurgy, as a mechanical engineer, so I give it a lot of weight. I will always match drill until I hear otherwise from Van's, and I would not buy a used RV if I knew the builder had not. Some have argued that we all deviate from Van's plans, and that this is just one more example of something that's up to the builder. I agree with the first part, but not the second. All the riveting on my RV will be either in accordance with Van's instructions, AC-43.13, or MIL-R-47196A, to the best of my ability. The freedom to decide in no way justifies deciding badly, or from ignorance. --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Well Said Jim, Excellent post. Archiving it. After 1100 hours in 2 years in a 6A, I can tell you there are a ton of things I am doing differently on my current 8 project, off plans, against Van's recommendations, and better. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? Again, I can't tell anyone on the list that they should dimple without match drilling. That must be left up to the individual builder. However, I do get a kick out of the notes that discuss how important it is to follow Van's instructions to the letter because there is a reason for it. If everyone had an opportunity to look at some of the RVs flying out there real close, they would quickly discover that this is really good in theory; but, it isn't followed very well. I believe the Harmon Rocket that eventually led to the RV-8, as I see it, is a good example of how we drift from the norm. Putting gascolators at wing roots, using fuel filters, etc. are others we hear about often on this list. We all deviate a little somewhere to make us feel better about our projects. Riveting is one of those. How many times have you changed to a different rivet size because the ones called out in the plans just didn't work? I know I have because I knew there was no way the called out rivet would work. Does that mean I should lose sleep over it; or, should I be content that I've done something that might well have been better than had I done just what the plans called for? Anyway, I said I'd tested and looked closely at examples of each kind of dimple, matched drilled and not matched drilled. I could not see the difference. Granted, I was not using a high powered microscope to look at them; but, I did look pretty closely with a magnifying glass. Both types of dimpling deformed the hole edges, even though I made sure I was not forcing the dimpler into the holes. I actually got a better rivet fit by not match drilling. It was a little loose; but, it wasn't excessive. Rather than getting into the theory side of it, I'd like to know of someone who has not match drilled, is doing aerobatics that puts real stresses on the airframe, and has had rivets popping off or cracks appearing that can be attributed to the lack of match drilling. Don't just discuss the theory. Show me that it's actually happening. I'm the practical builder, not the theorist. If you can show me, I'll listen. I'm willing to learn from the experiences of others. I'm not trying to be hard headed. I'm also not trying to get out of work because I really enjoy building RVs. My working on my third project should tell you that. I just find it hard to believe that I can drill a hole better than the machine can punch it. I should know. While building Scooter, I drilled a lot of holes. It's like the deburring discussion. One can find discussions that say one must debur every hole and can read books that say otherwise! I've even read on this list about companies that don't do it, at all! Now, that gave me heart burn; but, they may very well be right. In this world of excessive litigation, they stand to lose a lot more than me and are not deburring, anyway. Again, I'm not telling anyone it's OK to not match drill. At the same time, I'm going to look at it with an open mind and not worry about 10-20 years down the road. I can assure you that other things will crop up for me to worry about more so than those holes. Engine failures, electrical problems, etc. come to mind as more recurrent issues for some of us than rivets coming out and cracks forming. Now, canopy cracks are a different problem and do make me worry a bunch. :-( Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, need to finish tail, ordered wings) EAA Tech Counselor = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: engine woes...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Lycoming engines are known for eating camshafts. The only fix that I'm aware of is the Nye Nozzle case mod, (spray nozzles are installed to spray oil on the cam), and a preoiler. Engine start is your worst time for cam oiling. http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.html Bruce www.glasair.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com>
Subject: Dielectric grease
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the archives. Thanks to those more knowledeable than me. Randy Lervold RV-8, RV-3B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
comments below! Sam Buchanan wrote: > >Bill VonDane wrote: > > > >> >>So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and >>found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't >>have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive >>paperweight for a while... >> >>I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting >>old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... >> >>http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm >> >>-Bill VonDane >> >> > > >Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found >when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam >that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those >lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is >probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it >was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it. > Almost a sure thing. Long periods of idleness almost guarantee cam follower and lifter failure. It may have been salvageable if two cylinders had been removed and the followers looked at before running for an extended time. The cam and the cam follower can usually be reground before major damage occurs. Sometimes the cam follower is just too far gone. >You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank >loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install >a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back >together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many >more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize >service and resale, the overhaul might be in order. > If you're going to split the case anyway, it's false economy not to go for a major overhaul. Been there done that, and the second time around (in too short a time) it was a full major. I'm happier, and the engine is happier. >Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the >case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the >cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you >have access to somebody with Lycoming experience. > Actually, with just a little 'engine' knowledge, the overhaul manual and the parts manual (these cover more than one 'model' but are specific so get the one for your engine). Depending on the age of the engine (in years, not necessarily hours) since major if there was one, I'd send the case off to Divco and have it overhauled and the mods (if any) installed. That was around $600 for my O-360, and money well spent. The hardest part is splitting the case .... and you can do it without the fixture ..... but the rest of the tools you most likely have in your tool box. > Plus, the satisfaction >of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence >in your plane. > And your knowledge. Find an A&P that will work with you .... but get one with some engine rebuilding experience. Buy him a case of beer ... After you're done working! >Here is the link to my engine rebuild: > >http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm > Wish I had taken pics. I didn't give it much thought! Linn > >Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine! > >Sam Buchanan > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Dielectric grease
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Insulates Regards, Trampas Stern Stern Technologies 4321 Waterwheel Dr Raleigh NC 27606 919-832-8441 Ext. 12 (voice) 919-832-8441 (fax) www.sterntech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Lervold Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the archives. Thanks to those more knowledeable than me. Randy Lervold RV-8, RV-3B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
On 15:04 30/03/2004 "Tommy Norman" wrote: > Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and > deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless > you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some > opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I > know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the > long route. All opinions appreciated. When people ask me for advice on buying a used RV, one of the things I tell them is to go to the Matronics search engine, and punch in the owner's name and/or the aircraft's registration. You'll learn all about the problems the builder had during construction, and you may even learn things he wouldn't want you to know (like skipping fundamental steps in construction that the kit manufacturer considers mandatory). As a mechanical engineer, I know that punching the holes will work harden the material around the edge of the hole. You can't see it with a magnifying glass, and i'd be surprised if you could see it with a microscope. Drilling out the hole just a small amount will remove most, if not all, of that work hardening. If that work hardened area is not removed, you can be sure that the fatigue life of the aircraft will suffer as a result. Whether it means you knocked 1000 hours or 10 hours off the life of the aircraft, nobody could tell unless they knew exactly what conditions the airplane has been, and will be, subject to during it's service life. But why would you knowingly shorten the life of your aircraft? It's really a small step, and one that goes quite quickly. Personally, I want my aircraft to have the highest resale value possible in the unlikely event that I want to sell it at some point. Cutting corners in construction, and admitting it on a public, archived, mailing list, isn't the way to ensure that high resale value. -Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: N223RV(at)aol.com
Subject: BFR and Training in an Experimental
I have heard people talk about training for their PPL, Instrument ticket, etc in an experimental. I assume you are allowed to get a BFR also in an experimental. Is this true, and if so where in the regulations does it say this is possible. My flight instructor is asking and I can't seem to find any info either way in the FAR's. Thanks -Mike Kraus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: "John D. Heath" <altoq(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Dielectric grease
Not so much insulate as isolate from oxygen and other oxidizers. In the case of ignition and other high voltage circuits it seals the insulators together, not allowing moisture or foreign elements to penetrate the insulation seal. John D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com> Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease > > Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of > it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it > provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for > years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the > archives. > > Thanks to those more knowledeable than me. > > Randy Lervold > RV-8, RV-3B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon Robertson" <grobertson(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I found it useful to get a power screwdriver (eg Black and Decker) and put the deburrer tool in the chuck. This is then dedicated to that job forever, and eliminated the carpal tunnel syndrome possibility of all those 10,000 deburrs Gordon Robertson RV8 ready for engine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)excelgeo.com>
Subject: PC680 What If
Does anyone know, or have any idea, what might happen if a direct short was applied across the terminals of the Odyssey PC680 battery. Would the battery blow up? Just Curious, Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Gary Zilik <zilik(at)excelgeo.com>
Subject: PC680 battery box
Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA approved too! http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: PC680 What If
There is a vent hole on the top of the battery that will vent if need be. It is covered with the product label and states do not cover this area....about .5 dia > >Does anyone know, or have any idea, what might happen if a direct short >was applied across the terminals of the Odyssey PC680 battery. Would the >battery blow up? > >Just Curious, > >Gary > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Coers, John" <John.Coers(at)fkilogistex.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I think I'm going to stop match drilling too. I think my choice of PRIMER will keep the skins from cracking. Not that my plane will have much stress on it anyway, since it's a tricycle gear with a slider canopy. I mean, if I were to build a taildragger with a tip up canopy and some inferior PRIMER (non zinc chromate) then yes I might want the strength that match drilling provides. Have a nice day :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: "Jim.Truitt(at)usdoj.gov" <Jim.Truitt(at)usdoj.gov>
Subject: K&N Filter Deal
(Receipt Notification Requested) FYI - I just spoke to Cindy at Pierce Manifolds. All of the K&N filters (E-3450) are sold. She was quite amazed at the power of the RV list. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: Subaru Engines...
vansairforce You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an engine that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!? I'm sorry... I'm sure this will piss some people off, but why does this $hit cost so much! -Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Master relay
Date: Mar 31, 2004
According to 'lectric Bob it takes about an amp of current just to keep the master relay closed. Thats why he likes to see a simple switch on the essential bus. Since an amp is more than a SL 40 uses while on and not transmitting. I don't know, but 12 watts is certainly enough to get something that small pretty warm. Don "All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Jim: > Of course, you'd also be one in a hundred that > might even think to ask the question. :-) I design punched sheet aluminuam parts for a living, and they are always punched and then rivited straight after, with no match drilling. But they aren't airplane parts, and fatigue isn't much of an issue in the products I design. If your plans don't say to match drill, I can understand why you might think it's not necessary. But in my airplane, I will always remove the work-hardened material around the hole, until I see evidence that it's NOT required. I can't see the percentage in taking that chance just to save a few hours of building time. Maybe that explains why you've built three and I'm still working on my first. It's possible that the dimpling relieves the residual stress created by the punching. But I'd want to see some test results before I counted on that. > I don't have a copy of MIL-R-47196A. In an earlier post you talked about deviating from rivet sizes called out in the plans, and wondering if that was okay. MIL-R-47196A will give you the answers you need. You can get a copy at http://home.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm or http://www.vansairforce.org/reference/MIL-R-47196A_MI.pdf Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
These lists are great, thanks to all for your opinions. I was originally leaning towards match drilling and deburring. Now after hearing everyone's opinions and talking with Vans, I am defiantly going this route. Matter of fact, I went ahead and match drilled my VS already. Deburring and dimpling will commence tonight. I am in no way looking for shortcuts that will compromise the longevity of the aircraft, or more importantly, safety. This craft is not only for my pleasure flying, but it is also a means of transportation for my wife and two small kids. Therefore, I will take the utmost care in producing the highest quality product that I can. Vans sited the following reasons for following this process: * If one piece is punched during warm temperatures and the other during the cooler temperatures, the holes could be different sizes. Dimpling will not fully correct this deviation. The rivet will fill the smaller of the two when squeezed but not necessarily the larger. * The time it takes for this process is accounted for in the 51% builder time. The inference I drew from this was that if you did the quick build, and did not match drill and deburr, you would not be building 51% of the plane and therefore would not be legal??? * During the hole punching process, there are vertical shear marks left in the skin and they also detected very minute cracks. Since the holes are punched smaller than the final drill size, the shear marks and cracks will be removed during the finish drilling process. Thanks again, Tommy Frisco, TX -10 40201 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Norman Subject: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the long route. All opinions appreciated. Thanks, Tommy = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears wrote: > Of course, you'd also be one in a > hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, > I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the > engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available online about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become quite savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the skills to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions to ask. It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life of the riveted joint to be significant. > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match > drilling. True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either, or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just us here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second guess him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering knowledge to argue the point? > Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However, > there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's > instructions and my copy of AC 43.13. Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process, so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant. > I > remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a > structural item. You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you didn't drill out first. > Much deviation is done on our craft. And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit and you'll have to deadstick. > Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was > made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened > metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way > showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some. You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a microscope too. > Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the > boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are > perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without > forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's > that important? Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering it and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call Vans, and ask them. > I just think that my drilling may not be as > good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem > later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know > what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the > need for jigs. On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the holes, shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple, reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue. > As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A > quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-) -Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
In a message dated 3/31/04 5:23:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, tie-norman(at)comcast.net writes: > > * If one piece is punched during warm temperatures and the other during > the cooler temperatures, the holes could be different sizes. Dimpling > will not fully correct this deviation. The rivet will fill the smaller > of the two when squeezed but not necessarily the larger. > > Tommy, You may have misunderstood this point. I think the rivets will fill small and large holes both. The difference would be along the length of the parts. Dan RV-7A (almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Chris Krieg <rv6a(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Subaru Engines...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Go to http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/ and click on the spinning "new" link. He explains it there. It is not just the cost of the engine. You are paying for a lot more than just the engine. Chris On Mar 31, 2004, at 2:37 PM, Bill VonDane wrote: > You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an > engine > that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!? > > I'm sorry... I'm sure this will piss some people off, but why does > this > $hit cost so much! > > -Bill > > > Online help on this group at: > http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/ > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > vansairforce-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com > > Service. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: Subaru Engines...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight times longer....you get what you pay for. John at Salida, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: PC680 battery box
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I called this company and the polished version is $39.95 and the black is $43.95 both in stock and available. I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik(at)excelgeo.com> Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box > > Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed > aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA > approved too! > > http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm > > Gary > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Subaru Engines...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Pretty general statement that needs clarification. 1) What type of Subie? Did he build it or was it one of the known manufacturers? 2) What was the nature of the problem? Root cause? I've seen Lycomings go on the first take off but it is generally some associated event that caused the problem. Let's have all the facts before slamming Subarus. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines... > > My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his > Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight > times longer....you get what you pay for. > > John at Salida, CO > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Attachments to all RV-List messages
Date: Mar 31, 2004
All of the emails I am getting from the RV-List have attachments on them with the same title as the email. Why? Ross Mickey RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: PC680 battery box
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Also think about the location of the contactors and the wires to/from them when considering mounting the battery. Van's battery box has provision for installing 2 contactors. With two batteries back to back on the firewall and with an overvoltage contactor and a cross feed contactor, I have 5 contactors all within inches of each other. It is working out pretty well, but that's after redoing it a few times. Your idea still sounds good to me. (It sounds like you are building a side-by-side RV.) Terry RV-8A wiring and stuff Seattle I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
Jim Sears wrote: > Since this discussion is starting to turn nasty, I'll just back off and let > it slide. You've made your point that I may not be so sharp because I live > in the boondocks. In fact, I'm probably not smart enough to build my -7A > just because I'm willing to challenge an issue. Hmmm. I really thought I > had this building thing going OK. My RV-6A has about 300 hours on it. The > RV-9A I helped to build is flying quite well. I really thought I knew how > to build. Others I know seem to think so. Maybe I don't. I guess my > building a new -7A will tell it for me. Maybe not. :-) > > Jim Sears in KY > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > RV-7A #70317 > EAA Tech Counselor Ok Jim, since you live way too far out in the boonies to know how to safely build an airplane, I will be in KY Saturday to fly your plane back to Alabama for safe keeping. Some of my buddies will be up there in a truck to pick up the RV-7A you are workin' on. They last thing we want happening is for some unlucky slob to buy one of your planes and have the thing turn to dust while he is airborne. Good grief, I bet you didn't dip each rivet in primer before you stuck it in the hole either! Bet you didn't even take a Q-tip and primer the inside of the holes. Maybe we better disassemble your RV-6; I'm not sure I feel safe flying it!!!!!! See you Saturday, Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Mar 31, 2004
The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this is a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered by FAR Part 91. Mike Robertson Das Fed >From: N223RV(at)aol.com >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: vansairforce(at)yahoogroups.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:07:17 -0500 > > >I have heard people talk about training for their PPL, Instrument ticket, >etc in an experimental. I assume you are allowed to get a BFR also in an >experimental. Is this true, and if so where in the regulations does it say >this is possible. My flight instructor is asking and I can't seem to find >any info either way in the FAR's. Thanks >-Mike Kraus > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: PC680 battery box
Darwin N. Barrie wrote: > >I called this company and the polished version is $39.95 and the black is >$43.95 both in stock and available. > >I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back >on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged >to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments? > >Darwin N. Barrie >Chandler AZ >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik(at)excelgeo.com> >To: >Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box > Do they weigh less than a few pieces of angle & a nylon strap? :-) "Simplicate & add lightness." (wish I could give proper credit for that quote....) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Subaru Engines...
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst(at)ucol.ac.nz>
My understanding is that by the far the vast majority of engine failures of homebuilts are due to one of the ancillary (fuel, ignition, cooling, etc) systems failing, not the engine itself. If that's true, then on average you are about as likely to have a failure with a Lyc as with a Subaru. Perhaps a more accurate throwaway line would be... you get what you build. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines... > > My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings > with his > Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying > eight times longer....you get what you pay for. Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL (0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of Learning. Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your future ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
From: Paul Parashak <pavel_gaijin(at)yahoo.com>
I know for a fact that one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are left in are prime areas for crack propagation. I am a submarine officer in the USN and we do extensive testing on metals to ensure that metals used (primarily high alloy steels and not aluminum) are free of detectable preexisting flaws. I plan on drilling / deburring and dimpling all of the prepunched holes on my RV-7 (or 8 if I can convince my wife). Paul Parashak Preview plans stage. On 3/31/04 08:19, "Tedd McHenry" wrote: > > I was advised by an engineer at Van's that match drilling is required to > remove > the work-hardened area around the punched holes, and that their tests > indicated > failure to do so would significantly reduce the fatigue life of the airframe. > That opinion is from an experienced engineer with inside knowledge, and is > consistent with my understanding of metallurgy, as a mechanical engineer, so I > give it a lot of weight. I will always match drill until I hear otherwise > from > Van's, and I would not buy a used RV if I knew the builder had not. > > Some have argued that we all deviate from Van's plans, and that this is just > one more example of something that's up to the builder. I agree with the > first > part, but not the second. All the riveting on my RV will be either in > accordance with Van's instructions, AC-43.13, or MIL-R-47196A, to the best of > my ability. The freedom to decide in no way justifies deciding badly, or from > ignorance. > > --- > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Gotta stir this pot just a little more. First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 & #40 drill bits, & I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a deburring tool & use it regularly. I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go ahead & punch the holes 'full size' & save us all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now. I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after drill only, and one after standard #40 drill & debur. Final sizes varied from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the drilled/deburred & dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples. The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al. (learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything similar after standard drill/debur/dimple? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)QCBC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
Date: Mar 31, 2004
If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round smooth hole. You don't get smooth nor round with a drill bit. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or sportpilot(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes > > On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears wrote: > > Of course, you'd also be one in a > > hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, > > I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the > > engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. > > I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available online > about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become quite > savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the skills > to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions to > ask. > > It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the > riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life of > the riveted joint to be significant. > > > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is > > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match > > drilling. > > True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either, > or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make > some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the > instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just us > here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could > understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the > manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second guess > him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering knowledge > to argue the point? > > > Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However, > > there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's > > instructions and my copy of AC 43.13. > > Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process, > so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the > holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if > you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant. > > > I > > remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the > > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a > > structural item. > > You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you didn't > drill out first. > > > Much deviation is done on our craft. > > And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of > the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel > line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst > thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit > and you'll have to deadstick. > > > Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was > > made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened > > metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way > > showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some. > > You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work > hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look > intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a microscope > too. > > > Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the > > boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are > > perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without > > forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's > > that important? > > Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to > learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering it > and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they > posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when > it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's > unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably > simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone > who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place > for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at > www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call Vans, > and ask them. > > > I just think that my drilling may not be as > > good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem > > later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know > > what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the > > need for jigs. > > On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are > aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the holes, > shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple, > reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue. > > > As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A > > quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) > > Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-) > > -Rob > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Navaid servo installation under seat
In a message dated 3/31/04 1:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, mstewart(at)iss.net writes: << Does anyone have pictures of a WORKING installation under the seat for an rv-6? >> I'm certain you will get other offers but you could call Navaid at 423-267-3311 and ask them for RV-6 under seat installation sketches and they will send you some. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, final assembly ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)QCBC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
Date: Mar 31, 2004
What is done with the punched lightening holes in the ribs. They aren't drilled and they are flanged which is much like dimpling. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes > > Jim Sears wrote: > > > Since this discussion is starting to turn nasty, I'll just back off and let > > it slide. You've made your point that I may not be so sharp because I live > > in the boondocks. In fact, I'm probably not smart enough to build my -7A > > just because I'm willing to challenge an issue. Hmmm. I really thought I > > had this building thing going OK. My RV-6A has about 300 hours on it. The > > RV-9A I helped to build is flying quite well. I really thought I knew how > > to build. Others I know seem to think so. Maybe I don't. I guess my > > building a new -7A will tell it for me. Maybe not. :-) > > > > Jim Sears in KY > > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > > RV-7A #70317 > > EAA Tech Counselor > > > Ok Jim, since you live way too far out in the boonies to know how to > safely build an airplane, I will be in KY Saturday to fly your plane > back to Alabama for safe keeping. Some of my buddies will be up there in > a truck to pick up the RV-7A you are workin' on. > > They last thing we want happening is for some unlucky slob to buy one of > your planes and have the thing turn to dust while he is airborne. > > Good grief, I bet you didn't dip each rivet in primer before you stuck > it in the hole either! Bet you didn't even take a Q-tip and primer the > inside of the holes. Maybe we better disassemble your RV-6; I'm not sure > I feel safe flying it!!!!!! > > See you Saturday, > > Sam Buchanan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Charlie, When I said I deburred after drilling, deburring and dimpling, I meant deburr the back side where it is stretched from the dimpling operation. 3/32 is .09375 inches. As you pointed out, after you dimple the hole measures about .100 inches or more. That's quite a stretch from 3/32, and that's why the hole looks rough. A quick turn of my "blue tool" from Avery's shines it right up. Actually, I didn't do this to the whole airplane. Even I am not that particular. BTW my bits from Avery drill a round hole when turned at high RPM in my Sioux air drill -- at least most of the time. Now, let me stir a little more. Let me tell you about my riveting technique. I have been pre-squeezing my 3/32 rivets up to about .100 in my hand squeezer before beating on the skin of the airplane with the air hammer. I found that the shorter, fatter rivets always drive straight, and the skin looks a lot better after I'm done. The rivets do that anyway, why beat up the airplane doing it? Also, I always use about a 3 inch strip of Vans special riveting tape over just one rivet. I use the same piece of tape for up to about 20 rivets, moving it about 1/8 inch each rivet. It protects the skin and the tool, and gives a better target to aim at. It does take a little more time, but it really did improve my riveting. What do you think? Dan Hopper RV-7A (almost done) In a message dated 3/31/04 8:50:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time, cengland(at)netdoor.com writes: > > > > Gotta stir this pot just a little more. > > First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 ( drill bits, & > I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a > deburring tool &use it regularly. > > I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer > when they were going to go ahead &punch the holes 'full size' &save us > all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was > enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue > the match drilling thing for now. > > I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An > untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap > calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after > drill only, and one after standard #40 drill &debur. Final sizes varied > from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using > recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the > drilled/deburred &dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples. > The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool > chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al. > (learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything > similar after standard drill/debur/dimple? > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
In a message dated 3/31/04 9:21:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, jcoers(at)bellsouth.net writes: > > > It was that thingy call the spar. > > Are you talking about the horizontal stab or vertical stab? How did he get it to stick to the airplane at all? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker(at)charter.net>
"'vansairforce'"
Subject: engine woes...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were on the core? Charlie Becker N464CB RV8A(e) Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane Subject: RV-List: engine woes... So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive paperweight for a while... I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>Tedd, I'm betting the person selling that airplane to you isn't going to >tell you whether he match drilled it, or not. He's going to be showing you >the virtues of his airplane. Of course, you'd also be one in a hundred that >might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, I'd be guilty of >not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the engine installation, >the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. I'm betting most of the >rest of us would, as well. > > > In my experience, if a builder is too lazy to build the airplane the way the kit manufacturer recommended, you'll see other evidence elsewhere, you won't have to be told about the way he drilled the holes. And I mean it when I say lazy. Not match drilling is just a way to save time and effort, it will NOT make it a better airplane. Dave Bristol EAA Technical Counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Hopperdhh(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Charlie, > > When I said I deburred after drilling, deburring and dimpling, I meant deburr > the back side where it is stretched from the dimpling operation. 3/32 is > .09375 inches. As you pointed out, after you dimple the hole measures about .100 > inches or more. That's quite a stretch from 3/32, and that's why the hole > looks rough. A quick turn of my "blue tool" from Avery's shines it right up. > Actually, I didn't do this to the whole airplane. Even I am not that > particular. BTW my bits from Avery drill a round hole when turned at high RPM in my > Sioux air drill -- at least most of the time. I have a question. If a driven rivet pulls up tight enough to prevent any relative motion between the rivet and the two pieces of aluminum, or the aluminum pieces to each other, how can cracks propagate from the rough edges of the rivet hole? No movement, no cracks, right? Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
> >But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that >illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine >compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block >like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can >with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air >compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine >shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you >open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills >the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc. > > If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear. Dave Bristol EAA Technical Counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Larry G RV-7 N697RV <edge540t(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
I cant agree with you any more the reamer dose allot better job for round and smother hole. I started on the wings with the reamer instead of a drill bit when I could. It don't leave the nasty drill burr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)QCBC.ORG> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes > > If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a > chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round > smooth hole. You don't get smooth nor round with a drill bit. > > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or sportpilot(at)eaa.org > > Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca> > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes > > > > > > On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears wrote: > > > Of course, you'd also be one in a > > > hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, > > > I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the > > > engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. > > > > I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available online > > about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become quite > > savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the skills > > to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions > to > > ask. > > > > It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the > > riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life > of > > the riveted joint to be significant. > > > > > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is > > > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match > > > drilling. > > > > True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either, > > or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make > > some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the > > instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just > us > > here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could > > understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the > > manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second > guess > > him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering knowledge > > to argue the point? > > > > > Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However, > > > there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's > > > instructions and my copy of AC 43.13. > > > > Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process, > > so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the > > holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if > > you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant. > > > > > I > > > remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the > > > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a > > > structural item. > > > > You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you > didn't > > drill out first. > > > > > Much deviation is done on our craft. > > > > And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of > > the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel > > line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst > > thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit > > and you'll have to deadstick. > > > > > Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was > > > made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened > > > metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way > > > showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some. > > > > You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work > > hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look > > intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a > microscope > > too. > > > > > Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the > > > boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are > > > perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without > > > forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's > > > that important? > > > > Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to > > learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering > it > > and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they > > posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when > > it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's > > unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably > > simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone > > who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place > > for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at > > www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call > Vans, > > and ask them. > > > > > I just think that my drilling may not be as > > > good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem > > > later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know > > > what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the > > > need for jigs. > > > > On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are > > aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the > holes, > > shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple, > > reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue. > > > > > As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A > > > quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) > > > > Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-) > > > > -Rob > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote: > No movement, no cracks, right? No, that's not correct. No relative movement is required to propagate cracks, only stress. In fact, under the right conditions cracks can propagate while the part is sitting on the shelf (for example, stress corrosion cracks). Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: engine woes...
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Which is why you also need the Ney Nozzle mod. To spray oil on the lobes. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes... > >But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that >illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine >compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block >like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can >with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air >compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine >shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you >open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills >the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc. > > If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear. Dave Bristol EAA Technical Counselor = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws?
I might also suggest your local Radio Shack for the #4 SS screws. Greg Vanremog(at)aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/30/2004 4:28:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv6apilot(at)yahoo.com writes: I am having problems finding a place to buy those #440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws. ========================= Try Olander listed in the Yeller Pages. GV (RV-6A N1GV flying 685 hrs) --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Tedd McHenry wrote: > > On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote: > > >>No movement, no cracks, right? > > > No, that's not correct. No relative movement is required to propagate cracks, > only stress. In fact, under the right conditions cracks can propagate while > the part is sitting on the shelf (for example, stress corrosion cracks). Uh oh......are you saying that Vans is shipping airframe kits that possibly have stress corrosion cracks propagating while the parts are in the warehouse, being shipped to us, and sitting in our shops waiting to be assembled? How can we be assured that the "right conditions" are not present which can enable stress corrosion cracks from occurring while Vans is cutting out the parts for my kit? Apparently these insidious cracks may be propagating due to no negligence on my part. Or should I insist that some of the guys in the factory at Vans go ahead and polish all the edges of the kit parts so I won't be faced with stress corrosion cracks on my brand new parts. Goodness knows having the parts trucked all the way across the country to the boonies of Alabama is plenty stressful. How do I know those kit parts aren't getting stressed out? Is there such a thing as stress corrosion crack syndrome (SCCS)? I can't stand the thought of paying a lot of money for a kit that is already stressed out before I have a chance to stress it out in my shop. I am finding this whole idea to be very stressful. Matter of fact I think I may be cracking up. Somebody deburr me.....quick! No, even better, ream me out! And while you are at it, gimme a shot of epoxy primer! I'm too young to succumb to SCCS!! Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Hal / Carol Kempthorne <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
At 02:00 PM 3/31/2004, you wrote: >I will always remove the work-hardened material around the hole > >Maybe that explains why you've built three and I'm still working on my >first. There is something to this! There can be some difference in the level of craftmanship or maybe perfection from one RV to another and yet both still be safe flying machines. We know that some of our tools look and perform alike but one is built to last longer tho usually at a higher price. Personally, I think most RV accidents will be pilot error and a few will be due to components attached to the airframe rather than the airframe itself. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Subaru Engines...
> My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his > Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight > times longer....you get what you pay for. Your friend's Subaru was a roll-your-own junkyard special. My friend just rolled over 450 hours on his Eggenfellner Subaru and reports that it has yet to miss a beat or use any oil between 50-hour changes. He sends the oil out for spectroscopic analysis every time, and every time it comes back "no wear." So I guess you're right, you do get what you pay for. What you pay for with an Eggenfellner is a complete, tested package. As someone else pointed out, the auxilliaries are where you're most likely to have a problem, and that is the key advantage of a well engineered package. I'm not bad-mouthing roll-your-own engine conversions. I really admire the people who do it well, and I'd like to do it myself, eventually. But one person's problem-plagued installation is not a reflection on a well-engineered package like Eggenfellner's. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Richard Scott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
One of the first things I encountered when I started my -9 was a roughness when I ran my fingers across holes I had deburred with the Avery 3 flute tool. So I looked at the hole with a strong hand lens & saw chattering. Tried more pressure, less pressure, spin faster, slower & every thing else I could think of to eliminate it. Talked to Bob Avery who sent me another bit but still had the problem. Finally ordered the single flute bit & the chattering is 90% reduced. Also found that if I tilt the handle of my tool outward (to give a flatter angle) as I spin it, it does a nicer job & does it in only one turn. Richard Scott 9 Emp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dean" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Charley, et al I always cleco matching parts together, match drill, deburr, and dimple. I use only the Avery 6 flute chatterless deburr tool after discovering that the 3 flute tools in combination with cordless screwdrivers leaves what resemble tiny gear teeth (ripples) around the holes. The 6 flute leaves a smooth clean deburr and works well for countersinking flanges for nutplate rivets. A piece of 1/4 inch rod, a short piece of 1/4 inch I D al tube, and 5 minute epoxy make a nice extension for the tool. I normally use a light cordless slow speed drill for deburring whenever possible. By the way, this same drill with a 3 flute tool would leave the same "gear tooth" effect as the cordless screwdriver because of gear train resonance in both drives. Dean Van Winkle Retired Aero Engineer RV-9A Fus/Finish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie & Tupper England" <cengland(at)netdoor.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > > Gotta stir this pot just a little more. > > First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 & #40 drill bits, & > I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a > deburring tool & use it regularly. > > I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer > when they were going to go ahead & punch the holes 'full size' & save us > all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was > enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue > the match drilling thing for now. > > I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An > untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap > calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after > drill only, and one after standard #40 drill & debur. Final sizes varied > from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using > recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the > drilled/deburred & dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples. > The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool > chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al. > (learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything > similar after standard drill/debur/dimple? > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: PC680 battery box
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Thanks Gary. But just so I feel better, I must say ... Arrrggghhh!! ;-) I **JUST** finished installing a dual set of the earlier steel ones! (Cut out eight (~2") lightening holes in each box). James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Zilik > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 2:22 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box > > > Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed > aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA > approved too! > > http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm > > Gary > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Subject: Land down under
From: Keith T Uhls <keithuhls(at)juno.com>
Listers, My father and I are building an RV-7 and my Dad will be spending a month down in Australia in the Brisbane area, I just wanted to see if there was anyone he could visit so he could get an RV fix. Drop me an e-mail off line to contact me. Keith Uhls keithuhls(at)juno.com RV-7 finish kit (90% done 90 % to go) N7KU ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Apr 01, 2004
>The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this >is >a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not >say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to >get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is >done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered >by >FAR Part 91. > >Mike Robertson >Das Fed Mike, I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a local CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be "instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on the controls. My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the ground, and he signed me off. So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just get it over with? Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning tendencies. Ok, back to this need for left rudder... The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder. Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody confirm my thinking? I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then* make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes? )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
Subject: Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Mar 31, 2004
Your instructor should at least 5 hours in that plane before he teaches in it. Then its ok. That is what I have found out so far. But the problem for anyone wanting to do this is finding an instructor who will use your plane. Also remember your plane has to have the 40 hours on it before 2 people can go up in it. Brett p.s. by the way the 40 is all most on my XL. A couple more nice days and its done. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2004
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote: > How can we be assured that the "right conditions" are not present which > can enable stress corrosion cracks from occurring while Vans is cutting > out the parts for my kit? Apparently these insidious cracks may be > propagating due to no negligence on my part. I'm guessing you were joking here, but just in case you weren't or in case someone reading your post misinterprets it, I'll give a stright-up answer. In a nutshell, you can be confident this isn't happening if everyone involved in designing and making the parts follows accepted practices. Not certain, but confident. The aircraft industry has invested a phenomenal amount of effort into determining how to make, install, maintain, and use parts in such as way as to minimize problems such as stress corrosion cracking. And, in the case of parts from Van's, I think it's fairly safe to assume that appropriate practices have been followed, right up until the parts arrive in your shop in Van's carefully designed crate. After that, it's up to you. When I described crack propagation in parts sitting on the shelf I was talking about something that can and has happened, but I was not suggesting that this was a risk with parts in your RV kit. I was simply pointing out that your assertion (that relative movement of the parts was required to propagate cracks) isn't correct. Cracks produced in the production process (including by the kit builder) can propagate into failure in many different ways, and it behooves us to learn to avoid making those cracks as best we can. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV8ter(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Local RVrs told me that they had no problem getting their BFR done in a RV8 as long as it was equipped with the rear seat rudder pedals and throttle along with the obvious control stick. That ended up being the only reason I bothered with installing the rear seat rudder pedals. lucky In a message dated 4/1/2004 12:47:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, akroguy(at)hotmail.com writes: >The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this >is >a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not >say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to >get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is >done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered >by >FAR Part 91. > >Mike Robertson >Das Fed Mike, I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a local CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be "instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on the controls. My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the ground, and he signed me off. So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just get it over with? Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Sears <sears(at)searnet.com>
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Apr 01, 2004
> I always cleco matching parts together, match drill, deburr, and dimple. I > use only the Avery 6 flute chatterless deburr tool after discovering that > the 3 flute tools in combination with cordless screwdrivers leaves what > resemble tiny gear teeth (ripples) around the holes. The 6 flute leaves a > smooth clean deburr and works well for countersinking flanges for nutplate > rivets. Dean just brought up another point that interests me; so, I'm speaking up again, after all. :-) I have the old style deburring tool that has less cutters. I know mine must have the chatter ripples around them, even though I was very careful to debur the holes as instructed. With that, I must have weakened every hole I drilled in my -6A. Does this mean that my RV is going to start falling apart; or, can I be assured that it's going to be holding together for many years to come? I'd not ask the question; but, I'm betting nearly every RV built before the prepunched stuff used an Avery debur tool, or one of the same quality, and has those ripples. Does this mean that all of us -3, -4, -6, etc. builders now have that to worry about along with those guys and gals who are not match drilling? Maybe match drilling is the least of our worries? I just wonder what Van and company used on their old blue RV-6A. Hmmm. Now, do I ground Scooter to keep it from falling apart in flight; or, do I just ignore this discussion and keep on flying it? I think you know the answer to that! I'm going to keep on flying it and do my usual condition inspection each year where I look for cracks, etc., that may be forming. So far, I've seen nothing like that. It's now in its fifth year of flying. However, I think I'll add that single flute debur tool to my wish list. I don't want my new -7A to fall apart in flight, either. :-) Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
In a message dated 3/31/04 10:18:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, sbuc(at)hiwaay.net writes: > > I have a question. > > If a driven rivet pulls up tight enough to prevent any relative motion > between the rivet and the two pieces of aluminum, or the aluminum pieces > to each other, how can cracks propagate from the rough edges of the > rivet hole? > > No movement, no cracks, right? > > Sam Buchanan > > Sam Buchanan > > Right Sam, I actually came to the same conclusion during the night! These dimpled rivets have a lot going for them. To really understand what a great joint it is requires a lot of analysis. I just did a test sample, and carefully drilled it apart. The hole actually expands to about .106 when you drive the rivet to specs. Maybe you don't have to get in there (fortunately!) and deburr it because (I speculate) the driving process compresses the "bad" surface and stress relieves it anyway. Or maybe the joint under compression holds the "bad" area from moving and propagating any stress cracks. Dan Hopper RV-7A (almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
Date: Apr 01, 2004
I believe the TMX-360 experimental engines by Mattituck now include the pressure lines to lubricate these areas. If interested, anyone could further verify this by contacting Mahon Russell at Mattituck at Mahlon_Russell(at)teledyne.com Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak JeffRose Flightline Interiors Firewall Forward, Wiring ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Bristol" <bj034(at)lafn.org> Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes... > > > > > >But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that > >illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine > >compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block > >like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can > >with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air > >compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine > >shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you > >open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills > >the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc. > > > > > If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure > oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the > case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear. > > Dave Bristol > EAA Technical Counselor > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
From: sjhdcl(at)kingston.net
Interesting, left rudder. What are you using to judge the required rudder? The Dynon? The ball on my Dynon display I find to not be very accurate. In any case you thinking is correct. Offsetting the rudder to the left side causes the aircraft nose to turn right. I have the same 1/4" offset in my VS and it flies straight. Too much displacement of the VS to the left would require left rudder to correct. I wouldn't elongate the bolt holes as a temporary movement. Either rivet on an aluminum plate to the plate of the VS (flush rivet with head aft) and then drill new bolt holes slightly offset from the previous holes. Ask Van's about this one as well. This is only a temporary fix to judge the new flight attitude. An easier fix in my opinion is to use the wheelpants to offset the need for rudder. If the required rudder is small just adjust the angle the gear leg fairing are installed at. They're easy to change since the attachement at the top of the gear leg is a simple clamp. Before starting to tweak anything on your airplane, make sure the instrument telling you left rudder is reading perfectly. How the the rudder on take-off and climb? How much right rudder do you require? Steve RV7A 65 hours > > Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that > this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without > wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get > the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the > fairings...that > way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any > turning > tendencies. > > Ok, back to this need for left rudder... > > The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge > is > located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I > gotta > assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder. > > Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS > mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody > confirm my thinking? > > I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt > holes > in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and > *then* > make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes? > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Date: Apr 01, 2004
> Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I > can say that this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in > cruise. I'm operating without wheel pants and without leg > fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get the airplane > perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the > fairings...that way I'll know if the fairings are straight > and are not imparting any turning tendencies. It might be interesting to know why the ball is showing left now in your current configuration, but not important. What really matters is what is needed after you put all the fairings on. Two things will change - the fairings will perhaps have a yawing affect one way or the other, and, importantly, the airspeed will be higher. I have mine trimmed, with a little tab on the rudder like most have, for typical cruise settings. If I simply put the nose down for a shallow descent without changing power, something like 10 - 15 knots extra speed, the ball moves to the left. Too many potentially offsetting variables to try to chase. I'd recommend that you put the fairings on. The ball just might be centered, and the engine will be happier too with the increased cooling air. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Chattering of cutting tools, such as a deburring tool, is probably due to the rake angle being wrong. If the actual cutting surface is trying to "dig in", it will cause the chattering. Opposing flutes of the three flute cutter then compete with each other, causing the chatter. Get out your eyepiece, and have a close look. The cutter needs to "scrape" across the surface, instead of trying to plow itself deeper. A decent starting point would be to have the forward edges be about 90 degrees to the direction they are moving. Take a grinder or Dremel to the cutters to get the angle right. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Actually I would put all the fairings on first then trim as necessary. They do make a difference!! > >Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that >this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without >wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get >the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that >way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning >tendencies. > >Ok, back to this need for left rudder... > >The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is >located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta >assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder. > >Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS >mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody >confirm my thinking? > >I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes >in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then* >make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes? > >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Using the fairngs to center the ball causes more drag than a rudder trim tab. > >Interesting, left rudder. > >What are you using to judge the required rudder? The Dynon? The ball on my >Dynon display I find to not be very accurate. > >In any case you thinking is correct. Offsetting the rudder to the left >side causes the aircraft nose to turn right. I have the same 1/4" offset >in my VS and it flies straight. Too much displacement of the VS to the >left would require left rudder to correct. > >I wouldn't elongate the bolt holes as a temporary movement. Either rivet >on an aluminum plate to the plate of the VS (flush rivet with head aft) >and then drill new bolt holes slightly offset from the previous holes. Ask >Van's about this one as well. This is only a temporary fix to judge the >new flight attitude. > >An easier fix in my opinion is to use the wheelpants to offset the need >for rudder. If the required rudder is small just adjust the angle the gear >leg fairing are installed at. They're easy to change since the attachement >at the top of the gear leg is a simple clamp. > >Before starting to tweak anything on your airplane, make sure the >instrument telling you left rudder is reading perfectly. > >How the the rudder on take-off and climb? How much right rudder do you >require? > >Steve >RV7A >65 hours > > >> >> Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that >> this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without >> wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get >> the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the >> fairings...that >> way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any >> turning >> tendencies. >> >> Ok, back to this need for left rudder... >> >> The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge >> is >> located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I >> gotta >> assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder. >> >> Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS >> mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody >> confirm my thinking? >> >> I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt >> holes >> in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and >> *then* >> make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes? >> >> )_( Dan >> RV-7 N714D >> http://www.rvproject.com >> >> > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DAVAWALKER(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Match drilling
Charlie, There are # 30 and #40 reamers available that may eliminate some your concerns. Dale W. RV-7 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed
Dan C, I'm waiting for the report on the electrical problem. Dan H. RV-7A (almost done) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
"'vansairforce'" When I bought it the log book showed 1576 SMOH and 350 STOH... TT was in the neighborhood of 4500 hours... When I took it apart it had 1738 SMOH and 512 STOH... -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker890(at)yahoo.com> Subject: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes... I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were on the core? Charlie Becker N464CB RV8A(e) Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane Subject: RV-List: engine woes... So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive paperweight for a while... I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: More on Engine...
vansairforce Hey all... I removed the engine from the plane last night and disassembled it... At least it doesn't look any worse than it did yesterday... The case and crank look great, to me anyway, but I am going to have it all looked at my by my engine guru tonight or tomorrow... Hopefully I can get by with polishing the crank, may have it all balanced at a local shop here too... New bearings all around, and new cam and tappets... I may have the case reconditioned too if my A&P deems it necessary... We'll see... It also looks like I will need a new left mag gear, as the fuel pump drive lobe on it is pitted pretty bad... Will be checking for any ADs that need to be done as well... I have posted a lot more photos on my site: http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DJB6A(at)cs.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Sensenich Prop 180 HP and spinner for sale
I have decided to install a constant speed prop so have a new - never installed Sensenich Prop plus Sensenich spinner for sale. I bought it from Van's model 72FM8S9-1 (85) Spinner is from Sensenich I am looking sell as a unit; total price of $2100 plus shipping: current cost is around $2375 plus shipping. Please reply off list to - djb6a(at)cs.com or dave(at)lysine.com Dave Burnham RV6A N64FN (res) Lincolnshire, IL 847-478-0748 home 773-867-0161 work ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
"'vansairforce'"
Subject: engine woes...
Date: Apr 01, 2004
The moral to this story, for those still looking for an engine is, don't buy an engine on it's 3rd or 4th run. By that time, everything that rotates, slides, or squiggles needs to be replaced. Can you tell how many hours were on the cam? Was it replaced at the last OH or just reground? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane Subject: Re: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes... When I bought it the log book showed 1576 SMOH and 350 STOH... TT was in the neighborhood of 4500 hours... When I took it apart it had 1738 SMOH and 512 STOH... -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker890(at)yahoo.com> Subject: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes... I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were on the core? Charlie Becker N464CB RV8A(e) Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane Subject: RV-List: engine woes... So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive paperweight for a while... I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting old, can't hold the damn camera still any more... http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Land down under
Date: Apr 01, 2004
My wife and I will be visiting our daughter in a couple of weeks who is studying in Canberra Australia. Any Ausi builders in the Sidney or Canberra? We will be there from Apr 14th thru Apr 22nd. My daughter says I need to brush up on the slang!! Thanks, Jim Muegge RV-8 Painting Nebraska, USA -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith T Uhls Subject: RV-List: Land down under Listers, My father and I are building an RV-7 and my Dad will be spending a month down in Australia in the Brisbane area, I just wanted to see if there was anyone he could visit so he could get an RV fix. Drop me an e-mail off line to contact me. Keith Uhls keithuhls(at)juno.com RV-7 finish kit (90% done 90 % to go) N7KU = = = = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Sorry, been so busy flying this thing! 8-) I had two problems: ***** Problem #1: The B&C voltage regulator's low voltage warning circuit was continuously flashing at me, despite the bus voltage being held at a consistent 14.2 according to the gauge. It appeared that the VR was doing its job. I ran through B&C's troubleshooting guide, which comes with the VR. Every single parameter checked out fine. So I called B&C and told 'em what was happening and they suspected it was a shorted lamp flasher circuit. Their advice at first was, you're probably fine, just pull the light out if it's bothering you. Um, no...this is a new aircraft, I want everything working perfectly. They understood, and told me to ship the VR back to them and mark it "AOG" (aircraft on ground) to expedite a repair at their cost. Meanwhile, I drove over to Spruce and snagged a brand new replacement regulator, popped it in, fired it up, and everything worked fine. I didn't change a thing...the low voltage light went out just fine when the alternator was switched on. So anyway, I'm sending the old one back for repair, and it'll become my spare when it comes back (or I'll sell it). ***** Problem #2: The ACS2002 engine monitor screen/CPU died. The symptoms were a brief period of erroneous readings, and then the screen went black. I spoke to Rob Hickman, who advised me that there are multiple power supplies (5v, 10v, etc.) and that one may have burned out...he asked me to check the voltage at various pins on the analog box. I did that, and everything checked out perfectly. When the unit was powered on, the screen would go black...you could see it was doing something...but it wouldn't boot up. Rob suspected that something burned out in the screen/CPU (I won't even pretend like I know what anything is in there). So he replaced the screen for me. Rob was like..."How's the weather down there?" and actually offered to fly the new screen down that same day (Monday) in his RV-4. Now that's service!!! But that wasn't necessary...instead he overnighted the new screen to me. On Tuesday around noon I got the new screen. I installed it, powered it up, and it came up just fine. Next step was to swap out the clock chip and use the one from the old unit. The clock chip stores all of your configuration data (fuel tank calibration, sensor calibrated ranges, logged hobbs/tach times, etc.). That would have been painful to lose all that. Fortunately, after swapping the clock chip the thing came right back up with my old settings. Beautiful! The cool part is that the ACS2002 actually continued logging data even after the tish fit the han. I was able to dump it to my PC using Rob's serial PC software, and in Excel you can see where the funkiness began. Rob is currently evaluating the data, and I'm shipping the old screen up to him for a complete dissection. He said this is the first failure he's had. On Tuesday afternoon, since everything was looking good, I went flying. The VR and the ACS2002 worked perfectly!!! CHTs were all green (315-330F), oil temp was a little high (226F), but that's ok for now. I've been using the ACS2002 to dump data from my flights and graph them. It is too much fun to go back and look at it after the fact. Trying to remember all the parameters and trends when flying those first flights is difficult. And writing everything down when you're busy flying the plane can bee too much. Nice to be able to click on a graph later to see the parameter values. http://www.rvproject.com/data/ (warning, those files are pretty big) Yesterday I made two flights. The first one went perfectly. The second one I strayed away from the airport and out to the test area ("the box"). Everything was going great until the RPM indication started fluctuating -- upward. It was erratic and displaying as high as 3000 RPM (you can see it on the graph). I headed straight for home (via the route prescribed by my op lims). When I got down I called Rob and he suggested checking the connections at the RPM sensor that plugs into the mag. I cut off the heat shrink and saw one wire had broken loose from a fast-on connector. Interesting... So I crimped on a new connector, and we'll go from there. I gotta say that despite the big hiccup on the first flight, the ACS2002 is the coolest thing under the sun. And speaking of sun, it almost seems *more* readable in direct sunlight. I don't know how that works, but something cool is happening there to make the colors really stand out. Support from Advanced Control Systems has been excellent, and it has been a pleasure dealing with Rob & Ken. The Dynon is also very sunlight readable. Better than I would have expected. I'm still building up my trust in it, and I haven't done the magnetic calibration yet (it desperately needs it). My panel-mounted compass is all over the place...it's not gonna be a reliable indicator in that position, but as long as I get the Dynon calibrated accurately then I'm not worried about it. The AeroSport engine is running GREAT! CHTs are now down to 290-315, oil temp has dropped to 195-205, and oil consumption is a little lower than I would expect for a break-in. Maybe 1/2 quart during these 3.6 hours. Other than the characteristic "RV popping" on base & final when the throttle is pulled back (I'm still running full rich, too), it has run strong and smooth. The Airflow Performance system with the purge valve has made startup a non-event. The engine is tight, no leaks. I have a tiny leak at the prop governor...I need to check the nuts to make sure they're tight, and possibly replace the gasket. That's it! This is just great fun. The challenges obviously change when you start flying, and as far as I can tell it's gonna still be a project for a while! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Hopperdhh(at)aol.com> Subject: RV-List: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed > > Dan C, > > I'm waiting for the report on the electrical problem. > > Dan H. > RV-7A (almost done) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental
I have not had any problems getting a BFR in my RV-4. I have rear seat rudder peddles and no throttle. I currently have about 300 hours in the plane and I even have a local instructor volunteer to do a BFR for FREE if I would just take him for a ride in it. Rob Hickman RV-4 N401RH RV-10 N402RH; S/N: 40204 (Vertical Stab Done!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Bill VonDane <bill(at)vondane.com>
Subject: Overhaul Videos...
vansairforce Anyone have the Lycoming engine overhaul videos I could borrow? -Bill VonDane EAA Tech Counselor RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs www.vondane.com www.creativair.com www.epanelbuilder.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Kysh <vans-dragon(at)lapdragon.org>
Subject: Re: engine woes...
As Tracy Crook was saying: > (1360 hours of Hmmmm, So descriptive. :> -Kysh -- | 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying | | CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr | | 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang | | Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ | | KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham | | Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Training in Experimental
Date: Apr 01, 2004
You can do any trainig in an experimental. Provided it has the equipment/capabilities/specifications necessary for the endorsement/license. I chose not to do primary training in my RV because for $50/hr, I preferred to learn how to land in someone elses plane. I do my BFR's in my RV. Until I got the Dynon, the instrument part of it was quite challenging. Great fun though. ASI, Altimeter, ROC indicator and GPS HSI. One big concern if I wanted to do primary in my RV would be to confirm I was indemnified by the insurance company. On your BFR, you are PIC, so if you were insured, you are insured. For primary training you'll need to run your instructor by and have him added to your insurance. If Sky Smith is reading this, any wisdom on this topic? Don "All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <benandginny(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: UHMW tape
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at VANs and that takes a week to get...) Ben Cunningham RV7 finish kit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: UHMW tape
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Type in UHMW tape. > >Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the >plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at >VANs and that takes a week to get...) > >Ben Cunningham >RV7 finish kit > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: UHMW tape
Date: Apr 01, 2004
McMaster sells it, too. http://www.mcmaster.com They sell different thicknesses and all that. )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: <benandginny(at)insightbb.com> Subject: RV-List: UHMW tape > > Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at VANs and that takes a week to get...) > > Ben Cunningham > RV7 finish kit > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Apr 01, 2004
> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back to the early 1940s > when swarms of hurriedly trained employees were turning out > thousands of C-47s/DC-3s at prodigious wartime production > rates and see what drilling/deburring tools and techniques > those folks were using? I have trouble believing that every > C-47 rivet hole was carefully drilled and deburred with just > the right 6-fluted tool, etc. Yet many of these airplanes are > still flying around 60 years later with 30,000 (+) flying > hours on them. Interesting that you mentioned DC3's. My dad told me that in the 50's and 60's, when he would occasionally fly DC3's, he would notice stop drilled cracks everywhere on those planes. And those planes are much older now... It is all about probability. Cracks will occur on all airplanes, the question is how often and how soon. Proper techniques won't eliminate them, just reduce the number and/or delay their onset. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 447 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Hyde" <nauga(at)brick.net>
Subject: Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Apr 01, 2004
> I received my original RV-3 checkout for insurance purposes > in an RV-6 with the CFI who built it. A really neat situation > for us within reach of Jefferson City, MO. Ditto for BFR's I got a checkout from the same guy. I've since heard that he's no longer instructing in his own RV. I have this nagging feeling the two might be related. Dave Hyde RV-4 in flight test nauga(at)brick.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson(at)consolidated.net>
Subject: Re: UHMW tape
benandginny(at)insightbb.com wrote: > > Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at VANs and that takes a week to get...) > > Ben Cunningham > RV7 finish kit Get hold of Stien Burch on this website and you can have it in about a couple of days at about half the cost of Vans... Phil..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne R. Couture" <commando@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Dielectric grease
Date: Apr 01, 2004
I believe the grease your talking about is used mainly on transistors for heat transfer to the heat sink it's attached to. Usually it is used in conjunction with some sort of dielectric between the transistor and the heat sink for electrical isolation. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com> Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease > > Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of > it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it > provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for > years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the > archives. > > Thanks to those more knowledeable than me. > > Randy Lervold > RV-8, RV-3B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2004
From: Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Dan, Don't forget that the power setting changes the amount of rudder that's needed so when you do get it trimmed, that setting will only be good for one particular power setting. That's why some airplanes have adjustable rudder trim. Dave Dan Checkoway wrote: > >Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that >this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without >wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get >the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that >way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning >tendencies. > >Ok, back to this need for left rudder... > >The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is >located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta >assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder. > >Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS >mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody >confirm my thinking? > >I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes >in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then* >make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes? > >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental > Your instructor should at least 5 hours in that plane before he > teaches in it. Then its ok. That is what I have found out so far. But > the problem for anyone wanting to do this is finding an instructor who > will use your plane. Also remember your plane has to have the 40 hours > on it before 2 people can go up in it. I'm not sure where the 5 hour requirement came from. I just got a BFR in my Velocity from a CFI who had never flown in a canard, let alone a Velocity. I taught him about Velocities while he gave me a very thorough BFR, including reading sectionals, airspace rules, runway incursion (from AOPA), stalls, instrument flight, a practice instrument approach, emergency engine out, recovery from unusual attitudes, etc. He thoroughly enjoyed the Velocity and I got a great BFR. I have a friend who is getting his instrument rating instruction in his Europa from his CFII. There are some DE's who will give the check ride in a homebuilt. I think it is mostly a matter of the individual CFI/CFII and what he/she is willing or unwilling to do. (Some folks still don't think homebuilts are safe!!!) I'm amazed that the CFI building a RV8 refused to give a BFR to a fellow RV'er???? Keep looking. Ronnie Brown Velocity 173 Elite RG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Dan, A local "4-peater" (RV6, RV6A, RV8A, RV7A) recently discovered that he needed a little left rudder as well. His philosophy is "put a rivet in every hole and the airplane is gonna be a straight as you need to worry about". So he did NOT make any changes other than taking the "rudder trim" from EPM.AV ( http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ ) that I had bought, sticking it on and flying. He says it flies straight now at cruise configuration (all fairings installed). You may in fact introduce a LOT more errors by changing the offset, especially BEFORE all the fairings are on and locked down. Just an opinion. James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: BFR and Training in an Experimental
Date: Apr 01, 2004
It is really up to the instructor. Most instructors, if they don't know you well, will want full controls at their access just in case. During a BFR they are, technically, the PIC if an accident should happen. It really comes down to the question of whether or not a BFR is a check or instructional. If you go with the instructional mode then the regs say that the CFI must have full access to the controls at all times. Mike R. >From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:40:49 +0000 > > > >The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this > >is > >a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do >not > >say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to > >get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection >is > >done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered > >by > >FAR Part 91. > > > >Mike Robertson > >Das Fed > >Mike, > >I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a >local >CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review >for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be >"instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except >for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on >the controls. > >My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was >more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once >expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the >airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the >ground, >and he signed me off. > >So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just >get it over with? > >Brian Denk >RV8 N94BD >RV10 '51 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com>
Subject: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
Date: Apr 01, 2004
Too many experts and not enough pragmatism. Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a problem here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a quick spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these specs. Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr and dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as twice the allowed tolerance. You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years so it works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better, i.e. the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the recommended rivet size is more likely to work. I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans considered it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them. Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he has ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs. Look at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but definitely ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and deburring. "If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round smooth hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit." If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium monocoque planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many of us have been alive . He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any suggestions from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers. Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole without match drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go ahead &punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now." I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had experimented with this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane they were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him. Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers dangerous for example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He is also notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on this topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our theorists believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why. There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole condition, size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and riveting punched holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen in aircraft riveted together without match drilling. There is a lot of theory flying around and virtually no practical examples. We are very unlikely to get much information either, when we pillory the pioneers. The list punishes non conformists and unfortunately some listers become nasty about opinions that conflict with their own. This is NOT conducive to getting useful practical information. Let's be conservative or daring(reckless?) as we choose but let's learn something from this. It's just barely possible that the theorists are overestimating the dangers and that our pioneers can contribute something valuable. Make your own decision on what you can sift from the differing opinions and contradictory fact and build accordingly. It's just barely possible the pioneers are correct and that this is an issue the majority are being overly anal about. If so building our next project may get even easier.


March 27, 2004 - April 01, 2004

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