RV-Archive.digest.vol-sh
September 27, 2006 - October 15, 2006
RV-Archive.digest.vol-sh
September 27, 2006 - October 15, 2006
> Dan,
> This is the pic from your CD that got me going...
> Forgive the novel...
>
> I took the same shaft and used a transfer punch to
> mark the center. To do this I took some 3" tape,
> wrapped (sticky side out) around the end, used the
> nearest diameter punch, whack! I then put the shaft
> in a machinist vice (held vertical in "v" groove),
> went to the drill press and drilled a pilot hole,
> and snuck up on the shaft size of the die.
> I'm going to make another, or see if I can get a
> longer shaft from Bob Avery maybe talk him into
> making it for me. Nah, I'll just order it and ask
> around at the chapter to see if someone has a lathe.
> I have the little taig lathe like Tom Emery's but
> it's just too small, the shaft will not got theough
> the chuck-race. Ok, nomenclature nomenclature I
> know, the hole that goes therough the chuck...
>
> Bottom line, I need to do a more precise job as the
> die is a little offset.
>
> When I wrote 45 min, it was actually faster.
>
> The compressor is 20' from the final filter & reg.
> The reg at the compressor was at 30#, The hose from
> the final filter was about 20' too so I'm estimating
> that I had 20# at the gun, was pretty quiet.
>
> I locked the collar onto the shaft, spring under the
> colar. need/want about 2" more on the shaft.
>
> Works great! Dimples are crisp and all the same.
> Center section skin looked great till I couldn't
> wait for a helper and rivited the skin myself in a
> couple hrs. Tried backriveting with a dumbell
> bucking bar, but ended up just using the swivel set
> and a "T" shaped bucking bar underneath.
>
> Oh well, when I was worrying about my rudder, I
> looked at one of the Vans planes at a Colorado
> fly-in. I got on the ground and was eyeballing the
> line looking up. I think it was Scott who walked
> over and said, 'I know what you're looking at, don't
> worry about it, just press on. And besides if you
> get too close and personal like this with other
> builders planes, ya might get your fingers stepped
> on'.
> Anyhow, given that I have a few of these spots, I'm
> toying with getting a (very) small decal made that
> says 'Caution, if you can read this, you're too
> close, the builder/owner is about to step on your
> hand' ;^)
>
> Dave
> 719.660.6665 (cell) if you want to talk it over
> rather than just email tag
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
>
> Dave,
>
> Are you using your rivet gun to dimple with the
> C-frame? Which shaft/attachment are you using?
> Please enlighten me... ;-) I do use my C-frame to
> rivet, but only with the shaft that has the
> flush/solid end...and only with a hammer (so far!).
> Interested in finding out your method with the rivet
> gun & C-frame.
>
> FWIW, I would love to have a DRDT-2. Maybe for my
> next project I'll buy one if the budget permits.
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D "Priorities"
> www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: davcor(at)comcast.net
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:35 PM
> Subject: RV-List: But wait...Re: DRDT-2 Table
>
>
> Hi,
> Many techniques to consider...
>
> Ya know, I wish I had paid more attention to Dan
> Checkoway's web contents as I watched him finish his
> plane. Then I bought his CD and reviewed as I was
> building, when I got to the centersection prep
> steps, Dan has a great picture showing the rivet gun
> and C-Frame to buck a few rivets.
> A few weeks later as I needed to dimple the
> centersection bottom skins, dreading getting my
> elbow fired up again (swinging the dead-blow), I
> said... I wonder... dimpled the scenter section in
> 45 min! I wish I knew this when I dimpled the wing
> skins...
>
> So while I lusted after the DRDT-2 as being
> obviously easier on the elbow, the C-Frame works
> great, set the air down, use two hands to move the
> skin in-progress, one-hand reach and pull the
> trigger... ya can get a real rhythm going...
>
> Dave Cordner
> RV7 - N898DC (rsvd)
> center section joined, side skins drilled,
> (fast) dimple party on skins this weekend ;^)
> utilit ====== ====
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> com/Navigator?RV-List
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Leadville CO breakfast flight
Yesterday morning a group of five RVs flew up to Leadville CO
for breakfast. It was the first time for Gary from California (white
and red RV)
http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Leadville26Sep06Small.jpg
Lead bubba was Loyd Remus in the unpainted RV-4. Joel Harding
was in the white and curvy line RV-8 and Lee Wolford brought up the
rear in the brown striped RV-4. Since they won't let me fly close to
them I took the pic. This was a few miles south of Leadville.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doc Custer" <ddcuster@wmv-co.us>
Subject: Re: Leadville CO breakfast flight
Date: Sep 27, 2006
Neat!
Motivation to get busy again.
Doc Custer
Retired software engineer and sometime Audiologist
Building RV9-A. Fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: RV-List: Leadville CO breakfast flight
>
> Yesterday morning a group of five RVs flew up to Leadville CO
> for breakfast. It was the first time for Gary from California
> (white
> and red RV)
>
> http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Leadville26Sep06Small.jpg
>
> Lead bubba was Loyd Remus in the unpainted RV-4. Joel Harding
> was in the white and curvy line RV-8 and Lee Wolford brought up the
> rear in the brown striped RV-4. Since they won't let me fly close
> to
> them I took the pic. This was a few miles south of Leadville.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: Re: Hartzell AD 2006-18-15 09/25/06
Date: Sep 27, 2006
http://hartzellprop.com/resource_library/pdfs/2006-18-15.pdf
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> > -->
> >
> > Maybe I've missed it in the thread somewhere, but is there
> a link to
> > the AD?
> >
> > --------
> > Bob Collins
> > St. Paul, Minn.
> > RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> > http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2006
Subject: Re: Stick Transfer function
With the standard Ray Allen servo relays you can connect all the buttons you
want to the servo. This is also the case with Van's flap relay deck for the
flaps.
I have trim and flaps connected to the front and rear stick in my RV-4 and
it has worked for 7 years without any problems.
Why worry about the rear seat person pressing the button also? If they can
press the button they can also grab the stick and that is a worse problem. I
have flown with my kids since they were 5 years old and it has never been a
problem.
The only problem that I have ever had with a rear seat passenger in 500
hours was when a 14 year old girl on a Young Eagles flight accidentally unbuckled
and then had a panic fit about it. I finally managed to calm her down enough
and reach around and buckle the lap belt.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Mt Rushmore/Devils Tower Trip
Sunday Rick Grenwis and I flew up to Mt Rushmore. I wanted to get a
picture of him with Rushmore in the pic but turbulence made that unlikely.
He did get a good pic of the monument. This is a blow up of the pic and
not indicative of being close.
http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Rushmore.jpg
Since Rick was responsible for navigation and found Rushmore easily we
then headed west into Wyoming to find Devils Tower. My pics were not
very good here either but did get one of him with the Tower in the same frame.
http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/DevilsTower2Small.jpg
This one was taken on the ground.
http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/DevilsTower27Small.jpg
We landed at Hulett (W43) and used their courtesy car to get to Devils
Tower about 10 miles away. Very convenient. On the way back home we
stopped at Guernsey (7V6) and filled up on 100LL for $3.15.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2006
From: "Stan Jones" <stan.jones(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Leadville CO breakfast flight
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2006
Subject: Re: Cleveland tail wheel
In a message dated 9/27/06 8:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
john(at)fureychrysler.com writes:
> I've been staring at nose wheels for the past 6 years so please excuse my
> ignorance but I just looked at two Cleveland tail wheels and noticed that
> what looks like a zerk grease fitting is just a hole to the center of the
> wheel. Looks like a sealed bearing on each side. Seems like an odd set up
to
> me. Any insight would be appreciated.
>
> John Furey
> 2 RV6A
> RV7 in process
==========================
John:
Some maybe bearings, what is know as an OPEN bearing, but many are
bushings/sleeves. So a simple grease fitting is all that is required, even for
the open
bearing.
Take a look at RV-6A's nose wheel. It has a simple bushing and grease
fitting.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2006
Subject: Cleveland tail wheel
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
John,
I believe that the old tail wheels used taper roller bearings
which required exterior lubrication. If they are now using a sealed ball
bearing, then the zerk fitting is not required and no maintenance is
required to the bearing. Just check it occasionally to see that the
bearing is operating smoothly and not worn out. That will give you some
interesting tracking problems.
Jim Nelson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: Flap Motor
Date: Sep 28, 2006
Has anyone found a place to buy parts for the Pittman flap motor such as the
horseshoe assembly with the brushes??
Thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Subject: RV-10 Nose Wheel Safety Issue
Date: Sep 28, 2006
I lost in flight one of the U-1024's (page 48-17) attached to the 1013C,
bracket along with the mounting screw (Allen head) and lock washer. I am
not sure what caused the loss but no damage occurred.
I have since drilled the heads of the two mounting screws and drilled a
safety wire hole in the two 1013C's so that I can safety wire the two
mounting screws to the mounting bracket and this cannot happen again. I
drilled the heads in two 90 degree locations so that when I safety wire
I can run the wire from either the top or bottom of the screw head and
the tow bar will not sub on the safety wire while moving the airplane.
If both U-1024's had come loose and the 1013C mounting brackets had both
slide back I could have suffered major damage to the nose wheel pant on
landing.
My assumption is that while moving the RV-10 with the two bar the two
bar pressure caused the mounting screw to back off the lock washer
enough that during flight the vibration caused the screw to back out far
enough to drop off the U-1024 into somebody's pasture.
__________________
Russ Daves
Lubbock, TX
N710RV - RV-10
First flight 7/28/06
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mt Rushmore/Devils Tower Trip
From: "tomvelvick" <tomvelvick(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 28, 2006
ronlee(at)pcisys.net wrote:
> Since Rick was responsible for navigation and found Rushmore easily we then headed
west into Wyoming to find Devils Tower. My pics were not very good here
either but did get one of him with the Tower in the same frame.
> Ron Lee
Looks like a great trip, Ron. Wish we could have gone too. Are you going to
LOE?
Regards,
Tom and Katie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64582#64582
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: Your Recommendations Please
Date: Sep 29, 2006
Recently I posted a querry re calibrating my airspeed indicator. After
testing and verification there is no doubt my
ASI is simply in error (Its a United 8125 TAS from Van's) so I have
decided to replace it.
Now, I would like a digital TAS, but can't find one that is reasonably
priced and that would fit in a 3 1/8-inch hole. I can find a MGL digital
but it is only an 'indicated' ASI.
I could simply replace the present United with another, but I really
like digital.
I also has some hesitation (don't really know why) about using a non-TAS
unit.
Fire away..I need fodder to support a decision.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Dwyer" <steve(at)cleanbrite.com>
Subject: Rv-6 Kit available
Date: Sep 29, 2006
I have a RV-6 Tail and Wing kit with very little completed for sale.
Would be willing to let them both go for very little (make offer) Call
me 315 675-9876.
Steve Dwyer
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Your Recommendations Please
From: Doug Gray <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sep 30, 2006
Do you appreciate that the primary ASI must show IAS or better CAS?
If it didn't then the colour speed markings would need to be adjustable
for pressure and density altitude.
TAS is a useful figure for other purposes but does not help in doing the
job of piloting the aircraft. It is also a tricky number to determine
accurately.
Queue Kevin H for complete & more accurate answer....
Doug Gray
> Recently I posted a querry re calibrating my airspeed indicator. After
> testing and verification there is no doubt my
> ASI is simply in error (Its a United 8125 TAS from Van's) so I have
> decided to replace it.
>
> Now, I would like a digital TAS, but can't find one that is reasonably
> priced and that would fit in a 3 1/8-inch hole. I can find a MGL
> digital but it is only an 'indicated' ASI.
>
> I could simply replace the present United with another, but I really
> like digital.
>
> I also has some hesitation (don't really know why) about using a
> non-TAS unit.
>
> Fire away..I need fodder to support a decision.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2006
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Stick Transfer function
Mark,
I wanted to have the same "absolute" control myself. I settled for
using a four pole, double throw switch to control the electric trim
and a three pole, double throw switch for the flaps. Center position
of each switch is OFF, in case of a runaway. PPT can be handled by
most intercom systems. I went with the RAC G307 grip, because it's 15
amp rated hat switch eliminates the need for trim servo relays. I've
got AutoCAD schematics of both my Flap and Electric trim circuits.
I'd be happy to send them to you, if you like.
The switch part numbers are on the CAD drawings. I used the same
Carling Technologies switches that B&C, Waytek Wire and others sell.
I think I bought them from Mouser.
Charlie Kuss
>snipped
>Next question. I am investigating how to swap all stick switch
>functions from L to R (Infinity grip) by some reliable, safe
>means. About 8 wires minimum (4-way trim, CWS, PTT, gnd). I would
>prefer a simple switch as opposed to using relays (4PDTx2) but I'm
>beginning to think there is no source for an 8PDT switch.
>
>Any suggestions or am I barking up the wrong tree and there's a
>simpler way to do this?
>
>THANKS!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Martin & Chris" <av.8(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re:Your Recommendations Please
Date: Sep 30, 2006
Hi Bert,
I also don't have any increase in rpm prior to engine cutting out using the
mixture control. My O-320 runs sweet and idles smoothly at 600 rpm with
metal FP Sensenich prop. But you have to be sure that pulling the throttle
back when landing that the engine doesn't die. In setting the mixture
screw, I simply adjusted it in and out until the engine idled smoothly,
erring if anything on the lean side. If I had of adjusted it on the rich
side then I may have got the rpm increase Lycoming suggest, but it is not a
problem. Obviously doesn't seem to be one for you either..
Cheers
Martin in Oz
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Subject: RV-10 Nose Wheel Safety Issue Update
Date: Sep 30, 2006
I lost in flight one of the U-1024's (page 48-17) attached to the 1013C,
bracket along with the mounting screw (Allen head) and lock washer. No
damage occurred on landing.
I had originally thought about drilling the heads of the two mounting
screws and safety wire to the 1013C's but after drilling the heads I
decided that the better method was to drill down through the U-1024,
through the mounting screw, and then run the safety wire back to the
1013 bracket. It worked great. I didn't have my camera at the airport
so I failed to get any pictures.
If both U-1024's had come loose and both 1013C mounting brackets had
shifted back I could have suffered major damage to the nose wheel pant
and possible to the gear leg fairing on landing.
My assumption is that while moving the RV-10 with the tow bar the tow
bar pressure caused the mounting screw to back off the lock washer
enough that during flight the vibration caused the screw to back out far
enough to drop off the U-1024 into somebody's pasture.
A smart move would be to check the tightness of the screw with an Allen
wrench after each use of a Tow Bar to move the airplane or to safety
wire as above.
__________________
Russ Daves
Lubbock, TX
N710RV - RV-10
First flight 7/28/06
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Answer - Eng Idle no rise
Date: Sep 30, 2006
Lost original thread, but this should help.
From: Light Plan Maintenance, August 2004.
"Most MA-4 series carbs have something of a strange glitch in that you can
attempt to richen the mixture with the knob, but a 25 RPM rise at altitude
is all you'll get. Often theses engines will have no rise at all at sea
level. Not to worry, The MA-4 will operate well despite the strange
behavior, and problems are few. Do not however, back the idle mixture screw
out so far that the holding spring tension is lost. There have been reports
of the valve falling out in flight."
I know, because I lost the mixture screw on my first flight. Engine quits
on landing due to, too rich of a mixture. If it idles OK, it is OK.
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
N123SG RV-8
Cappy's Toy
400 Hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 9(A) Trim Tab Hinge
Date: Sep 30, 2006
From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com>
My hinge is not prepunched (either side). The instructions seem to
imply a pre-punched hinge and the Ordnoff video shows it pre-punched
too. Van's told me no, the hinges are definitely NOT prepunched. So,
does everyone else also have non-pre-punched hinges? This is a little
strange..
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
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notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any
attachments from your system.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2006
From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 9(A) Trim Tab Hinge
Hi Paul,
The hinges are NOT pre-punched. Clamp it to the spar
and drill it.
Darrell
--- "Folbrecht, Paul"
wrote:
> My hinge is not prepunched (either side). The
> instructions seem to imply a pre-punched hinge and
> the Ordnoff video shows it pre-punched too. Van's
> told me no, the hinges are definitely NOT
> prepunched. So, does everyone else also have
> non-pre-punched hinges? This is a little strange..
>
>
>
> This transmission contains information for the
> exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be
> privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected
> from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or
> distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is
> required to retain electronic mail messages, which
> may be produced at the request of regulators or in
> connection with litigation. Electronic messages
> cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or
> error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not
> send confidential information to us via electronic
> mail. This communication is for informational
> purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to
> buy or sell any investment product. Any information
> regarding specific investment products is subject to
> change without notice. If you received this
> transmission in error, please notify the sender
> immediately by return e-mail and delete this message
> and any attachments from your system.
>
Darrell Reiley
RV7A "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner(at)yahoogroups.com
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Garry" <garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: James cowls and plenum
Date: Oct 01, 2006
Tomorrow I am starting the fit of my Will James cowls, and then on to
the fitting of my Sam James plenum on my RV7A. I have an AeroSport
IO360 horizontal induction engine.
If there are builders out there who have installed these items, and
would like to pass along any tips or tricks, I would greatly appreciate
it. The instructions that came with these parts aren't very clear, but
it looks like quite a bit of challenging work.
Also, I'm curious as to whether the claims of an additional 10 Kts speed
has truly been experienced by those who have fitted these cowls and
plenums.
Garry Stout
RV7A
Odessa Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr>
Subject: Stick Transfer function
Date: Oct 01, 2006
With a tandem arrangement, dual control seems to require relays, both for
flaps and for trims. I went for the RAC relays on the trims, a relay board
from Aircraft Extras for the flaps. The neat part is that it is simple to
isolate the rear pilot seat trims and flaps since the use of relays is based
on connecting to ground. By isolating the rear pilot switch from ground,
rear pilot trims and flap controls become inoperative.
Michele
RV8 Fuselage
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
Sent: samedi 30 septembre 2006 02:44
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stick Transfer function
Mark,
I wanted to have the same "absolute" control myself. I settled for using a
four pole, double throw switch to control the electric trim and a three
pole, double throw switch for the flaps. Center position of each switch is
OFF, in case of a runaway. PPT can be handled by most intercom systems. I
went with the RAC G307 grip, because it's 15 amp rated hat switch eliminates
the need for trim servo relays. I've got AutoCAD schematics of both my Flap
and Electric trim circuits. I'd be happy to send them to you, if you like.
The switch part numbers are on the CAD drawings. I used the same Carling
Technologies switches that B&C, Waytek Wire and others sell. I think I
bought them from Mouser.
Charlie Kuss
snipped
Next question. I am investigating how to swap all stick switch functions
from L to R (Infinity grip) by some reliable, safe means. About 8 wires
minimum (4-way trim, CWS, PTT, gnd). I would prefer a simple switch as
opposed to using relays (4PDTx2) but I'm beginning to think there is no
source for an 8PDT switch.
Any suggestions or am I barking up the wrong tree and there's a simpler way
to do this?
THANKS!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
Subject: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Date: Oct 01, 2006
Hello Listers,
My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin was
big. I had to hold the stick a little to the right to fly it level so I
guess that means the left wing is a little heavy. Which aileron was it that
I need to pinch the trailing edge a little? I could see the aileron was up
ever so slightly while level. Boy that was fun!
Tim Bryan
Bend, Oregon
________________________________________________________________________________
From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky)
Subject: Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Date: Oct 01, 2006
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_Heavy.pdf
Here's the Van's link. You may not want to do anything just yet...
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
Hello Listers,
My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin was big.
I had to hold the stick a little to the right to fly it level so I guess that
means the left wing is a little heavy. Which aileron was it that I need to
pinch the trailing edge a little? I could see the aileron was up ever so slightly
while level. Boy that was fun!
Tim Bryan
Bend, Oregon
Here's the Van's link. You may not want to do anything just yet...
lucky
Hello Listers,
My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first
flight today. Yeah, the grin was big. I had to hold the stick a little
to the right to fly it level so I guess that means the left wing is a little
heavy. Which aileron was it that I need to pinch the trailing edge
a little? I could see the aileron was up ever so slightly while level.
Boy that was fun!
Tim Bryan
Bend, Oregon
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2006
From: bill shook <billshook2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Congrats on the first flight!
Bill
-4 wings
--- Tim Bryan wrote:
>
>
> Hello Listers,
>
>
>
> My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin was
> big. I had to hold the stick a little to the right to fly it level so I
> guess that means the left wing is a little heavy. Which aileron was it that
> I need to pinch the trailing edge a little? I could see the aileron was up
> ever so slightly while level. Boy that was fun!
>
>
>
> Tim Bryan
>
> Bend, Oregon
>
>
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Date: Oct 01, 2006
On 1 Oct 2006, at 16:55, Tim Bryan wrote:
> My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the
> grin was big. I had to hold the stick a little to the right to fly
> it level so I guess that means the left wing is a little heavy.
> Which aileron was it that I need to pinch the trailing edge a
> little? I could see the aileron was up ever so slightly while
> level. Boy that was fun!
>
>
Congrats on the first flight.
For the heavy wing, see the Wing Heavy Analysis from Van's:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_Heavy.pdf
They suggest that squeezing the trailing edge is one of the last
things to do, after you rule out all the other possible causes.
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Date: Oct 01, 2006
I know that Feeling!!! Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom in Ohio RV6-A
>
>>
>>
>> Hello Listers,
>>
>>
>>
>> My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin
>> was
>> big. I had to hold the stick a little to the right to fly it level so I
>> guess that means the left wing is a little heavy. Which aileron was it
>> that
>> I need to pinch the trailing edge a little? I could see the aileron was
>> up
>> ever so slightly while level. Boy that was fun!
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Bryan
>>
>> Bend, Oregon
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: James cowls and plenum
From: "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2006
Garry, check out this site... it's very, very helpful:
http://www.n523rv.com/cowl/
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65081#65081
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Trip to MVN for a KR Gathering
I made a trip this past weekend to the KR Gathering in
Mount Vernon IL. Pre-flight planning showed a great fuel
stop at Miami Co airport in Paola KS. 100LL was $3.10
a gallon versus the $4.28 at my airport. Scrolling down
the airnav link also showed a BBQ restaurant on the field.
<http://www.airnav.com/airport/K81>http://www.airnav.com/airport/K81
In the aerial shot in the Airnav link the self-serve fuel pump
and BBQ restaurant are in the ramp area at the approach
end to Runway 3. I got there around noon local time and
they were busy. I got the beef brisket, turkey and fries.
If I had to do it again I would get two orders of beef brisket
and half an order of fries. The fries were enough for three
to four people. Several planes left and arrived while I was
there so it is a good place to visit.
After leaving Miami Co I climbed back to cruise altitude and
was soon getting 200 knots groundspeed. As I approached
the St Louis area I encountered some light drizzle. Since
the outside air temp was around 40 deg F I descended several
thousand feet to preclude any possible freezing issues. The
area towards St Louis looked like heavier rain whereas my path
was VFR. The short distance to Mt Vernon was uneventful and
I landed after 5.3 hours of flight time.
The next morning was wet looking so I drove up to St Louis to
see the Arch.
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Arch3Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.net/~
ronlee/RV6A/Arch3Small.jpg
The trip to the top is in small =93gopher cages=94 that hold five people
in an intimate environment. One person in my cage apparently
had issues and left before the trip up started. It only takes about
four minutes and your only view is of interior structures. Once on
top you have windows that face the river and towards town.
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Arch1Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.net/~
ronlee/RV6A/Arch1Small.jpg
http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Arch2Small.jpg
Upon returning to MVN I decided to fly to a few area airports.
Initially I was to go to Evansville IN then to KY, TN, AR and MO.
However that was soon changed when my fuel flows were higher
than my normal cruising altitudes of 11500 ' 13500 feet. So I
made a roundtrip to Evansville, refueled and went to Paducah,
KY. Both flights were uneventful and afforded me the chance
to fly in VFR but less than 100 mile visibility.
Sunday started less than ideally when the wakeup call never
came. I planned on going to the Beaumont Hotel in Kansas
for breakfast but was about ten minutes late. They have a
2600 foot grass strip then you taxi about 300 yards west to
the hotel.
The hotel website
is: <http://www.hotelbeaumontks.com/>http://www.hotelbeaumontks.com/
The Airnav link
is: <http://www.airnav.com/airport/SN07>http://www.airnav.com/airport/SN07
This picture shows the runway just this side (east) of the area
of trees. Then to the left (south) end of the runway you can see
the light colored road that heads west towards the hotel:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont1Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont1Small.jpg
The next picture was taken after landing south on the runway:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont2Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont2Small.jpg
The next one is a sign to at the south end that gives instructions
on getting to the hotel:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont3Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont3Small.jpg
The following out of focus picture gives you and idea what to
expect after turning west on the road at the south end of the
runway:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont4Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont4Small.jpg
Here is the stop sign and hotel. The parking area is ahead
and to the left.
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont5Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont5Small.jpg
Here is my plane in the parking area and the hotel:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont6Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont6Small.jpg
And this is closer to the stop sign. I pulled the plane here due
to large rocks in the parking area. I am not sure what people
do for tie downs if they stay there. Personally I would prefer
an asphalt area that does not slope down away from the road.
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont7Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont7Small.jpg
The following picture is on the runway facing north:
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont8Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont8Small.jpg
This one is facing south from the north end of the runway. You
can see some of the many windmills that are south of the field.
<http://home.pcisys.net/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont9Small.jpg>http://home.pcisys.n
et/~ronlee/RV6A/Beaumont9Small.jpg
I used perhaps half of the runway then went west to Benton
airpark (1K1) for $3.30 fuel. The rest of the flight home was
uneventful but due to some headwind took 6.1 hours total.
Overall a nice trip. Notable events include the furthest trip
east yet in my RV-6A, first time in precipitation, first time on
a grass strip, and re-familiarization of what happens when the
mixture knob is all the way in.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit and
into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought being,
let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a line
leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's and
wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout in
NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on Sunday
I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What I
found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle below
1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty of fuel
going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens and a few
other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not metering the
fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and climbing to
altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with altitude. Sure
enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a
little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that
be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent it
to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the weekend
troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was leaking
internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return side.
Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing lean
operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for repair. I
also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the return all
along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and unexplained
+1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Stick Transfer function
Michele,
For MOST stick grips, your statement below is true. However, RAC's
newest grips, the G305 and G307 series, have hat switches which are
rated at 15 amps. This negates the need for relays, and simplifies
wiring. Most other grips use hat switches with a 1 amp rating.
Charlie Kuss
>With a tandem arrangement, dual control seems to require relays,
>both for flaps and for trims. I went for the RAC relays on the
>trims, a relay board from Aircraft Extras for the flaps. The neat
>part is that it is simple to isolate the rear pilot seat trims and
>flaps since the use of relays is based on connecting to ground. By
>isolating the rear pilot switch from ground, rear pilot trims and
>flap controls become inoperative.
>
>Michele
>RV8 Fuselage
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
>Sent: samedi 30 septembre 2006 02:44
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Stick Transfer function
>
>Mark,
> I wanted to have the same "absolute" control myself. I settled for
> using a four pole, double throw switch to control the electric trim
> and a three pole, double throw switch for the flaps. Center
> position of each switch is OFF, in case of a runaway. PPT can be
> handled by most intercom systems. I went with the RAC G307 grip,
> because it's 15 amp rated hat switch eliminates the need for trim
> servo relays. I've got AutoCAD schematics of both my Flap and
> Electric trim circuits. I'd be happy to send them to you, if you like.
> The switch part numbers are on the CAD drawings. I used the same
> Carling Technologies switches that B&C, Waytek Wire and others
> sell. I think I bought them from Mouser.
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>snipped
>Next question. I am investigating how to swap all stick switch
>functions from L to R (Infinity grip) by some reliable, safe
>means. About 8 wires minimum (4-way trim, CWS, PTT, gnd). I would
>prefer a simple switch as opposed to using relays (4PDTx2) but I'm
>beginning to think there is no source for an 8PDT switch.
>
>Any suggestions or am I barking up the wrong tree and there's a
>simpler way to do this?
>
>THANKS!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
Subject: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 02, 2006
I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
the unit.
Pete
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
First I'd recommend you inspect it for foreign object stuck in it
preventing the piston from moving.
Finn
Pete Howell wrote:
>
>
>I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
>installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
>like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
>the unit.
>
>Pete
>
>
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: What do with with a bad three-layer joint...
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com>
It turns out that match-drilling the trim-tab hinge (on both sides) was
easy and the whole thing went very well. The gap is uniform and perfect
and all the joints are great... except for one. I wasn't able to
effectively clamp on the outboard-most hole on the tab and didn't get a
tight joint. So, I drilled out that rivet and redid it, clamping as
best I could - and now it's worse. It's pretty darn ugly, with gaps
between the skin/spar AND spar/hinge, both around 1/64" probably.
I'm sure this happened due to the slight enlarging of the hole from the
drill-out although I did a perfect job on that.
I think the best thing to do here would be enlarge to 1/8" to use the
larger rivet, but there's no way to dimple/countersink for the larger
size, of course.
If I just drill it out and try again there's almost no way it will turn
out better and will probably be worse. What's the thing to do here??
Pre-squeezed rivet? This joint uses -4s and I don't have anything
longer, although I'm sure they're made and I could get some.
Thanks,
Paul
9A QB #1176
Nearing end of empennage
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Mike
Thanks for your report. Could you tell me what type of aluminum
tubing you had used on your previous RV? Was it the 3003 Versitube
which Vans supplies? Or something else. Do you have any theory on why
that fuel line cracked?
Charlie Kuss
>After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
>injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary
>and can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
>As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
>terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats,
>to dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have
>had 2 failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve
>is simple. On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and
>allow the hot vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and
>start your normal hot start procedures.
>
>On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
>and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
>recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be
>too complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF,
>close to home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine
>coughed and would barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of
>troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on
>the purge return line. This crack was allowing air into the return
>line, and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After this
>incident I decided on my next plane, I would NOT put the purge
>return line into the fuel supply system. This failure could have put
>me and my wife in the trees.
>
>On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
>being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let
>a line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several
>RV's and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing
>rollout in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the
>wife's, but on Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began
>troubleshooting. What I found was the plane was way lean in running
>and would barely idle below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the
>servo and there was plenty of fuel going in, but the engine was not
>getting it. I checked screens and a few other things and no joy. I
>decided it was the servo not metering the fuel properly. I finally
>decided I try taking off and climbing to altitude and see if mother
>nature would richen it with altitude. Sure enough, around 7k' I
>would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a little ROP. BUT
>the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that be? I
>dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
>
>Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and
>sent it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent
>the weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve
>was leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the
>return side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This
>was causing lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this
>to AFP for repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending
>fuel to the return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten
>from day 1, and unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
>
>In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
>aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for
>hot starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the
>engine. Hot starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have
>now sworn off this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an
>RV and multiple failure modes.
>
>Thought some of you might find this information useful.
>Best,
>Mike Stewart
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: What do with with a bad three-layer joint...
Date: Oct 02, 2006
On 2 Oct 2006, at 10:43, Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
> It turns out that match-drilling the trim-tab hinge (on both sides)
> was easy and the whole thing went very well. The gap is uniform
> and perfect and all the joints are great=85 except for one. I wasn=92t
> able to effectively clamp on the outboard-most hole on the tab and
> didn=92t get a tight joint. So, I drilled out that rivet and redid
> it, clamping as best I could ' and now it=92s worse. It=92s pretty
> darn ugly, with gaps between the skin/spar AND spar/hinge, both
> around 1/64=94 probably.
>
> I=92m sure this happened due to the slight enlarging of the hole from
> the drill-out although I did a perfect job on that.
>
> I think the best thing to do here would be enlarge to 1/8=94 to use
> the larger rivet, but there=92s no way to dimple/countersink for the
> larger size, of course.
>
> If I just drill it out and try again there=92s almost no way it will
> turn out better and will probably be worse. What=92s the thing to do
> here?? Pre-squeezed rivet? This joint uses -4s and I don=92t have
> anything longer, although I=92m sure they=92re made and I could get
some.
This may be good place to use a NAS1097 rivet, commonly called an
"Oops rivet". The 1/8" size has a head that is the same size as a
3/32 rivet, so you could drill out the hole to 1/8", but not have to
dimple/countersink. And, as you know now, be sure to find a way to
clamp the joint tight before riveting. You have to get very creative
sometimes, but you are risking a bad rivet if you things aren't
clamped tightly together.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became best
friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and nearing
the first flight. He said "I aint letting you up there with that el
cheapo "Oh" tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out every soft
aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel. Every piece!
Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and could take a couple
measurements with a steel ruler, and come back with a perfectly fitted
SS aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the hydraulics shop at the Delta
hub here in Atlanta and I guess you get pretty good with this stuff. So
I originally had in this picture here soft 3003, but it was replaced
with stainless steel. I pointed the arrow to where the crack was. Right
behind the b-nut sleeve. Again the pic, from a vintage late 90's digital
camera that only geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it
was SS that cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/engtopcrack.jpg
My theory was that flex line should absolutely have been installed here.
That spider was no doubt bobbing around hung out there so far, while the
rear baffle was not moving much at all I suspect.
Mike
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Mike
Thanks for your report. Could you tell me what type of aluminum tubing
you had used on your previous RV? Was it the 3003 Versitube which Vans
supplies? Or something else. Do you have any theory on why that fuel
line cracked?
Charlie Kuss
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit and
into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought being,
let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a line
leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's and
wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout in
NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on Sunday
I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What I
found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle below
1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty of fuel
going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens and a few
other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not metering the
fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and climbing to
altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with altitude. Sure
enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a
little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that
be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent it
to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the weekend
troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was leaking
internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return side.
Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing lean
operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for repair. I
also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the return all
along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and unexplained
+1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
> It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became best
> friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and nearing
> the first flight. He said I aint letting you up there with that el
> cheapo Oh tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out every soft
> aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel. Every piece!
> Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and could take a couple
> measurements with a steel ruler, and come back with a perfectly fitted
> SS aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the hydraulics shop at the Delta
> hub here in Atlanta and I guess you get pretty good with this stuff. So
> I originally had in this picture here soft 3003, but it was replaced
> with stainless steel. I pointed the arrow to where the crack was. Right
> behind the b-nut sleeve. Again the pic, from a vintage late 90s digital
> camera that only geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it
> was SS that cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
Wonder if the softer, "cheap" aluminum line would have been less
susceptible than the stainless to cracking?
Sam Buchanan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: <av8er2fly(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Date: Oct 02, 2006
What would your normal start be with out the purge valve? I do not have
a purge valve but was considering putting one on because of real hard
hot starts. Any Ideas would be appreciated. Mark Rose RV8A 137MR IO360
85 fun Hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a
line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's
and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout
in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on
Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What
I found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle
below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty
of fuel going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens
and a few other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not
metering the fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and
climbing to altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with
altitude. Sure enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at
10k' I could run a little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than
normal. How could that be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew
her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent
it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the
weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was
leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return
side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing
lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for
repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the
return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and
unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 02, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
the unit.
Pete
===========================
Pete:
I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed. In all three cases it was
debris that jammed the piston.
One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart. DON'T LOOSE THE
PIECES when taking it apart.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Hilling" <inverteddecathlon(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 02, 2006
The Facet pump is very sensitive to dirt and requires a fuel filter between
the tank and the pump.
Also, they are made to push the fuel, not pull it. They will burn up from
running dry.
Craig
>From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet Pump Failure
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:51:45 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
>I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
>installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
>like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
>the unit.
>
>Pete
>===========================
>Pete:
>
>I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed. In all three cases it was
>debris that jammed the piston.
>
>One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart. DON'T LOOSE THE
>PIECES when taking it apart.
>
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
> After weeks of troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a
> tube FWF on the purge return line. This crack was allowing air into
> the return line, and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After
> this incident I decided on my next plane, I
>
I thought there weren't supposed to be any solid tubes FWF. The
vibration makes them crack.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
From: "shirleyh" <shirleyh(at)oceanbroadband.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2006
Congrats, Tim - if you only need to hold the stick "a little to the right" it sounds
like you've built it pretty well straight!
Before squeezing the aileron, try adding a temporary trim tab - I used a 6" length
of light weight timber moulding held on with double sided carpet tape. Tape
it on to the underside of the light aileron - and keep trimming a little off
the length til you are flying level hands off.
Isn't it just the best feeling to finally fly??!! Well done!
Shirley Harding
RV6 VH ASF 36 hours - would be more by now if I hadn't broken my foot! Flying is
safer than dancing.
Perth, Western Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65401#65401
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
From: Doug Gray <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Oct 03, 2006
I think the critical factor here is that the tube is unsupported. I
suspect a clamp or two would have significantly reduced vibration in the
tube and prevented the cracking.
What type of fuel valve failed.
Doug Gray
>
> On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
> and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
> recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
> complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close
> to home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and
> would barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of
> troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the
> purge return line. This crack was allowing air into the return line,
> and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I
> decided on my next plane, I would NOT put the purge return line into
> the fuel supply system. This failure could have put me and my wife in
> the trees.
>
>
>
> On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
> being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Dont let a
> line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RVs
> and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout
> in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wifes, but on
> Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting.
> What I found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely
> idle below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was
> plenty of fuel going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked
> screens and a few other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo
> not metering the fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and
> climbing to altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with
> altitude. Sure enough, around 7k I would get egts at peak, and at
> 10k I could run a little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than
> normal. How could that be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I
> flew her home to Atlanta.
>
>
>
> Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent
> it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the
> weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was
> leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the
> return side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was
> causing lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP
> for repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to
> the return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1,
> and unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
>
>
>
> In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
> aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
> starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine.
> Hot starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn
> off this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and
> multiple failure modes.
>
>
>
> Thought some of you might find this information useful.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike Stewart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 03, 2006
I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes.
I sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane.
I have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog.
It's worked quite well in about 400 hours of flying. The one I had in my
Grumman-American Cheetah had never been replaced. The Cheetah had about
fifteen hundred hours on it, when I sold it. This unit has a screen inside
to catch dirt, a magnet on the bottom to catch metal, and a removable bottom
that allows one to inspect it. It may be a good alternative for the ones
who are having problems with the little square pump. You'd have to do some
plumbing work to install it, though. Those not at the point of installing
the pump may look at these as an alternative. Get the anti-syphon version.
There is one that fits well with our lines; but, I don't think ACS has it.
One of the contributors told us about it, a long time ago. It's in the
archives. With the ACS version, one has to downsize to a smaller nipple
size at the pump. No big deal; but, the other pump would be better.
Oh, yeah. I have my fuel pump mounted on the engine side of the firewall.
I didn't like the idea of having one in the cockpit with me. At annual
time, it's easier to get to for inspection while I'm looking at the engine
and lines.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Very slowly working on the fuse)
EAA Tech Counselor
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Mike,
I have to agree with the other lister who suggested that your use
of bulkhead connections mounted to the baffles is the most likely
cause of your cracked tube problems. Due to the fact that the baffles
are not supported at their top edge, they will vibrate at a frequency
which differs from the rest of the engine. This will cause flexing of
the lines ( be they SS, 3003 Versitube or 5052-T0 ). You also
aggravated the situation (judging from your photo) by the way you
bent that inboard tube. Your outer tube is formed the proper way. In
high vibration environments, it is unwise to "cut the corner" with a
tubing run. Big radius bends are better than small radius bends.
Often, a service loop of tubing is advised, to help absorb vibration.
Regardless of these secondary issues, the best choice would have been
to use flex hose. Tubing is impractical in this area, because there
is no practical place to mount a bracket for the bulkhead fittings to
the engine itself.
The purge valve is mounted to the crankcases. The cylinders
vibratory movement also differs from the crankcases, so even a
bulkhead plate mounted to a cylinder would eventually cause a tubing
failure near the bulkhead fitting B nut..
Charlie Kuss
>It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became
>best friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and
>nearing the first flight. He said "I aint letting you up there with
>that el cheapo "Oh" tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out
>every soft aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel.
>Every piece! Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and
>could take a couple measurements with a steel ruler, and come back
>with a perfectly fitted SS aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the
>hydraulics shop at the Delta hub here in Atlanta and I guess you get
>pretty good with this stuff. So I originally had in this picture
>here soft 3003, but it was replaced with stainless steel. I pointed
>the arrow to where the crack was. Right behind the b-nut sleeve.
>Again the pic, from a vintage late 90's digital camera that only
>geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it was SS that
>cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
><http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/engtopcrack.jpg>http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/engtopcrack.jpg
>
>My theory was that flex line should absolutely have been installed
>here. That spider was no doubt bobbing around hung out there so far,
>while the rear baffle was not moving much at all I suspect.
>
>Mike
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
>Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:49 AM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
>
>Mike
> Thanks for your report. Could you tell me what type of aluminum
> tubing you had used on your previous RV? Was it the 3003 Versitube
> which Vans supplies? Or something else. Do you have any theory on
> why that fuel line cracked?
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
>injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary
>and can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
>As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
>terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats,
>to dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have
>had 2 failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve
>is simple. On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and
>allow the hot vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and
>start your normal hot start procedures.
>
>On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
>and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
>recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be
>too complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF,
>close to home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine
>coughed and would barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of
>troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on
>the purge return line. This crack was allowing air into the return
>line, and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After this
>incident I decided on my next plane, I would NOT put the purge
>return line into the fuel supply system. This failure could have put
>me and my wife in the trees.
>
>On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
>being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let
>a line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several
>RV's and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing
>rollout in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the
>wife's, but on Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began
>troubleshooting. What I found was the plane was way lean in running
>and would barely idle below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the
>servo and there was plenty of fuel going in, but the engine was not
>getting it. I checked screens and a few other things and no joy. I
>decided it was the servo not metering the fuel properly. I finally
>decided I try taking off and climbing to altitude and see if mother
>nature would richen it with altitude. Sure enough, around 7k' I
>would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a little ROP. BUT
>the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that be? I
>dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
>
>Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and
>sent it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent
>the weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve
>was leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the
>return side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This
>was causing lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this
>to AFP for repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending
>fuel to the return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten
>from day 1, and unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
>
>In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
>aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for
>hot starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the
>engine. Hot starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have
>now sworn off this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an
>RV and multiple failure modes.
>
>Thought some of you might find this information useful.
>Best,
>Mike Stewart
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy(at)speedyquick.net>
Subject: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 03, 2006
I really don't think I'd label the Facet pump as touchy. That thing is in
thousands of airplanes and the only time anyone is likely to post is when
they have a problem with it. I would guess that most everyone else that
hasn't posted is probably doing fine. I have 750+ hours on mine with no
trouble whatsoever. FWIW, it's cheap, simple, and it works.
Ed Bundy
I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes.
I sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane.
I have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 03, 2006
My little square Facet Pump is the one recommended by Van and is mounted in
the cockpit where Van recommends it. It has worked PERFECT since day one 9
years ago and 1,953 flying hours. Paul Rosales has almost 2,500 hours on
his and he has worked perfect also.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,953 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:15:51 -0400
I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes. I
sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane. I
have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog.
It's worked quite well in about 400 hours of flying. The one I had in my
Grumman-American Cheetah had never been replaced. The Cheetah had about
fifteen hundred hours on it, when I sold it. This unit has a screen inside
to catch dirt, a magnet on the bottom to catch metal, and a removable bottom
that allows one to inspect it. It may be a good alternative for the ones
who are having problems with the little square pump. You'd have to do some
plumbing work to install it, though. Those not at the point of installing
the pump may look at these as an alternative. Get the anti-syphon version.
There is one that fits well with our lines; but, I don't think ACS has it.
One of the contributors told us about it, a long time ago. It's in the
archives. With the ACS version, one has to downsize to a smaller nipple
size at the pump. No big deal; but, the other pump would be better.
Oh, yeah. I have my fuel pump mounted on the engine side of the firewall. I
didn't like the idea of having one in the cockpit with me. At annual time,
it's easier to get to for inspection while I'm looking at the engine and
lines.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Very slowly working on the fuse)
EAA Tech Counselor
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Ed Bundy wrote:
>
> I really don't think I'd label the Facet pump as touchy. That thing is in
> thousands of airplanes and the only time anyone is likely to post is when
> they have a problem with it. I would guess that most everyone else that
> hasn't posted is probably doing fine. I have 750+ hours on mine with no
> trouble whatsoever. FWIW, it's cheap, simple, and it works.
And....the Facet pump is a backup pump. What are the odds of the
engine-driven fuel pump and the Facet failing at the same time?
Sam Buchanan (RV-6 Classic with 780 hrs on the original Facet pump)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
Date: Oct 03, 2006
Hi Tim,
CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !!
Chuck & Dave Rowbotham
RV-8A
>From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RV-List: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
>Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:55:33 -0700
>
>
>Hello Listers,
>
>
>My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin was
>big.
Tim Bryan
>Bend, Oregon
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: joelrhaynes(at)aol.com
Regarding the comment that Facet pumps require a filter between the fuel tanks
and the pump to prevent debris from jamming the pump, I have Van's standard carbureted
fuel system setup in which the only "filter" I have between the pump
and the tanks is Van's fuel pickups with screens on the ends. Are some people
using an additional filter in the fuel system? My pump has performed well for
50+ hours (not continuous operation) even though I occasionally see a small
amount of fine debris in my tanks when I test for water.
Joel Haynes
RV-7A
N557XW
51 hours
Bozeman
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools,
free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL
Mail and more.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fort Collins, CO area flight
OK, you must be the guy who has not flown off the hours yet. Look into
Greeley as well.
It is probably as close to Severance as the others and has two nice runways.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KGXY
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FW: RV-6/7/9 Seats For Sale
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
Dear List,
Attached is a link to a pair of seats that came out of my
6A. They have exactly 250 hours on them since new. They are light
weight, comfortable and in very near new condition. The stick boot is
part of the seat.
I assume that they will fit 6's, 7's and 9's but I am not an
expert so if you are not 100% sure please ask someone knowledgeable in
the RV butt pad arts.
I have priced these are $350 + actual shipping charges (Zip
Code 93405)*. They may be worth more but my goal is to get these to a
nice RV home. If for some reason you are not satisfied I will refund
100% of the purchase price less shipping.
Robin
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 300 hours
RV-10 Delivered
RV-8A Dreaming
http://www.painttheweb.com/rv_seats/
* I live in central California (SBP) but also have a home in LA and can
deliver them to the Burbank (BUR) area free of charge
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Fort Collins, CO area flight
Date: Oct 03, 2006
From: joelrhaynes(at)aol.com
Tim,
I used to live in Fort Collins and have flown out of both airports. 3V5 is downtown
Fort Collins and is difficult to avoid densly populated areas. FNL has a
nicer runway (longer and wider) and is located between Fort Collins and Loveland,
serving both towns. It's less densly populated around FNL. Driving distance
from Ft. Collins to either airport is similar, depending on where you are
in Ft. Collins. If it were me, I would choose FNL.
Joel Haynes,
Bozeman
N557XW 7A 51 hours
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools,
free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL
Mail and more.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2006
Subject: [ John W. Cox ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: John W. Cox
Lists: RV-List,RV10-List
Subject: Hartzell Composite Prop
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/johnwcox@pacificnw.com.10.03.2006/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
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6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2006
Subject: [ Alf Olav Frog / Norway ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Alf Olav Frog / Norway
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Date: Oct 03, 2006
Subject: [ Clive Whittfield ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 03, 2006
So not having looked inside one, if the piston jams on junk, will it still
flow fuel if the mechanical pump is working ? In other words, does it fail
in a safe mode ?
Thanks Bill S
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
the unit.
Pete
===========================
Pete:
I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed. In all three cases it was
debris that jammed the piston.
One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart. DON'T LOOSE THE
PIECES when taking it apart.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/3/2006 6:49:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com writes:
My little square Facet Pump is the one recommended by Van and is mounted in
the cockpit where Van recommends it. It has worked PERFECT since day one 9
years ago and 1,953 flying hours. Paul Rosales has almost 2,500 hours on
his and he has worked perfect also.
=================================
811 hrs same pump (carbureted in my case) mounted all standard per Van's
instructions yadda yadda also perfectamundo. Let's not re-engineer this area,
folks.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Facet pump failure
Date: Oct 04, 2006
From: "Zeidman, Richard B" <richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com>
I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one
who had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding
normal for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last
flight, I toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it
in a lab later and found it to be intermitant below 13.5 volts and would
start dithering instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel throuh it,
I canot explain.
PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.
Rich
N42RZ RV6A
N42PZ RV7
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Findings on the AFP purge valve
Date: Oct 04, 2006
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
I received an excellent report from Don at AFP on the purge valve.
>From his report, ". Upon inspection of the valve assembly it was
apparent that the stop screw had not been lock wired and had started to
back out allowing the bottom O-ring to unseat from the lower boss in the
housing, thus allowing fuel to bypass to the return port."
Here is a nice picture of it.
http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/purgevalve.jpg
He went on to say "This is a disturbing finding as there are multiple
warnings and pictures in the installation manual as well as a tag on the
stop screw instructing the installer to lockwire the screw after
installation." While I don't remember the tag on the device, im sure the
manual mentions it. Tag or no tag, manual or no manual, it should have
been caught. Im fortunate to live at a big field with lots of
experience. I have had quite a few folks look over the plane prior to
its first flight. It was missed by 2 IA's, 3 A&P's. 1 DAR (would not
expect him to catch this), god knows how many others folks who have
poured over my super 8 installation, and finally me.
So in the end 2 purge valve system failures, both builder errors. Great!
These aren't the only issues I've had on my planes over the years that
could have been prevented, they wont be the last. But I have concluded
that this purge valve setup adds complexity and failure modes to a
system that is unjustified. Anything in the fuel delivery system should
be there for a good reason. In my years and couple thousand hours of
flying behind the AFP system in multiple RV's, I cant once say I've
needed the purge valve. Its not going back in my plane. As for the rest
of the AFP system, I think its great and Ive never heard of or
experienced any problems with it with the exception of the electric fuel
pump failures which have been discussed before and are in the archives
for your reading pleasure.
So my 2 cents on the AFP fuel injection system
1. Worth every penny
2. Leave out the purge valve
3. Increase the life of your electric boost pump by replacing the
stock filter element with a 25 micron one available from Flow EZ part
number 8504-05.
Flame suit donned.
Best,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Copper Report
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Several months ago I asked the group for advice concerning increasing levels
of copper in oil samples taken from the XP-360 engine on my RV-8. At one
point copper was up to 32 ppm on a 25 hour sample. After a short 10 hour
sample of Aero Shell 10W50 again showed high levels of copper at 16 ppm,
Blackstone Labs suggested I switch to Phillips XC 20-50 as a test.
Unbelievably, after a 20 hour sample with the Phillips oil, copper dropped
to 7 ppm which is 3 ppm below normal. All other elements were completely
normal.
Conclusion: Aero Shell additives were leaching copper out of engine
components. This was reported to have been a problem several years ago and
A/S says they changed the formula to correct the problem, but I dont think
they have corrected it.
Recommendation: If you are getting high levels of copper, change oil and
retest. Also, Blackstone Labs, (260-744-2380) did a great job in helping me
diagnose and correct the problem.
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
N123SG RV-8
Cappy's Toy
370 Hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco(at)cox.net>
Subject: Nose gear, 6A
Date: Oct 04, 2006
I mentioned a couple weeks ago finding my nose gear strut bolt loose. I
tightened and also took out the spacer for bearing which brought it
tight. Now things have looened up again and I have considerable sway on
nose gear. Anybody had this problem ? Also, if I need to change the bolt
in strut mount, can a slightly larger bolt be found and used? Charlie
Heathco
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2006
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Findings on the AFP purge valve
<>
>From: Phil Birkelbach <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
>Now off to the hangar to make sure I
>have a certain little piece of stainless wire.....
Ditto for me......same thanks - same wire.......
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Nose gear, 6A
Charlie:
Mine had developed a little slop in it years ago, about the time I
replaced the old style leg with the new and had them match-drilled at
a local machine shop. Van's tech-help reply was to drill oversize and
go up to the next standard bolt diameter. I asked about tapered
clevis pins, which I thought intuitively offered the best chance for a
good, snug fit, and the ability to tighten things further if they
loosened again, but they were against that idea. Since then, I've
just kept an eye on it and it has not seemed to worsen, so no fix has
yet been undertaken.
Typically the hole in the weldment socket is what elongates, and the
ultimate repair for that involves welding new metal... yet Van's
refuses to admit they have a problem with this design.
Curious what the spacer is that you removed; mine is just a gear leg
in a tubular socket, secured by a single bolt (too) close to the
firewall. There is no spacer that I recall ever seeing (1994-98
model).
-Stormy
On 10/4/06, Charles Heathco wrote:
>
>
> I mentioned a couple weeks ago finding my nose gear strut bolt loose. I
> tightened and also took out the spacer for bearing which brought it tight.
> Now things have looened up again and I have considerable sway on nose gear.
> Anybody had this problem ? Also, if I need to change the bolt in strut
> mount, can a slightly larger bolt be found and used? Charlie Heathco
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Findings on the AFP purge valve
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Since the AFP servo still flows fuel even when the mixture is pulled to
idle/cutoff, the purge valve is a SAFE choice imho. Just visualize fuel
having pooled in your sump (or airbox), and then you go to start the
engine.
This is not a "how easy is it to start" issue. It's a safety issue
imho.
Consider keeping the purge valve.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1085 hours)
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 4:58 AM
Subject: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve
I received an excellent report from Don at AFP on the purge valve.
From his report, ". Upon inspection of the valve assembly it was
apparent that the stop screw had not been lock wired and had started to
back out allowing the bottom O-ring to unseat from the lower boss in the
housing, thus allowing fuel to bypass to the return port."
Here is a nice picture of it.
http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/purgevalve.jpg
He went on to say "This is a disturbing finding as there are multiple
warnings and pictures in the installation manual as well as a tag on the
stop screw instructing the installer to lockwire the screw after
installation." While I don't remember the tag on the device, im sure the
manual mentions it. Tag or no tag, manual or no manual, it should have
been caught. Im fortunate to live at a big field with lots of
experience. I have had quite a few folks look over the plane prior to
its first flight. It was missed by 2 IA's, 3 A&P's. 1 DAR (would not
expect him to catch this), god knows how many others folks who have
poured over my super 8 installation, and finally me.
So in the end 2 purge valve system failures, both builder errors.
Great!
These aren't the only issues I've had on my planes over the years that
could have been prevented, they wont be the last. But I have concluded
that this purge valve setup adds complexity and failure modes to a
system that is unjustified. Anything in the fuel delivery system should
be there for a good reason. In my years and couple thousand hours of
flying behind the AFP system in multiple RV's, I cant once say I've
needed the purge valve. Its not going back in my plane. As for the rest
of the AFP system, I think its great and Ive never heard of or
experienced any problems with it with the exception of the electric fuel
pump failures which have been discussed before and are in the archives
for your reading pleasure.
So my 2 cents on the AFP fuel injection system
1.. Worth every penny
2.. Leave out the purge valve
3.. Increase the life of your electric boost pump by replacing the
stock filter element with a 25 micron one available from Flow EZ part
number 8504-05.
Flame suit donned.
Best,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Subject: Facet pump failure
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Who makes the cylindrical pump? Are you flying with it, yet?
John Jessen
#40328
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zeidman, Richard B
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 4:18 AM
Subject: RV-List: Facet pump failure
-->
I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one who
had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding normal
for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last flight, I
toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it in a lab later
and found it to be intermitant below 13.5 volts and would start dithering
instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel throuh it, I canot explain.
PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.
Rich
N42RZ RV6A
N42PZ RV7
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nose gear, 6A
From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2006
sportav8r(at)gmail.com wrote:
>
> Typically the hole in the weldment socket is what elongates, and the
> ultimate repair for that involves welding new metal....
The first thing I would do is see if an oversize bolt is available and determine
if the elongation in the weldment can be cleaned up to that dimension.
An alternative to welding that is more than an acceptable fix is to drill out the
elogation in the weldment holes and then press fit repair bushings of the appropriate
O.D. and I.D. into the weldment holes. Many competent machine shops
can do the work or you might get lucky and find the right size bushings somewhere
and do the repair work yourself for minimal cost. The only critical part
of the task is insuring the predrilled holes in the weldment are of the precise
dimension before attempting to press fit the repair bushings into them.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65749#65749
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nose gear, 6A
From: "Leland Collins" <federigo(at)pacbell.net>
Date: Oct 04, 2006
The Close Tolerance bolts AN175-20A is about four mils larger than the original
AN5-20A. Spruce list a drilled version but they were on backorder a week ago.
I found some at the Ted Shulgin Co., 925-228-2512. Van's lists an NAS1305-26
bolt that may be the same. Another option is to have a machine shop turn down
a 3/8" bolt to the desired dimensions.
Leland
--------
Leland
RV9A
N137LC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65769#65769
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Subject: Re: Nose gear, 6A
Charlie,
Take out the bolt and look things over. The bolt itself may show wear that
can be corrected with just a new bolt. Also, as another reply suggested, a
close tolerance bolt will have a larger diameter. A reamer is necessary to
get a really close fit. On my second motor mount (another story) I had a
machinist friend use an adjustable reamer to get a perfect fit. Also, I greased
up the gear leg and the bolt to try a different approach. Maybe if the joint
is lubricated, it won't wear. We'll see how long this one holds up.
I though I had a really good fit when I first built my -7A, but mine
loosened up just as you describe in a little over one hundred hours. Van's said
it
should only happen after thousands of hours. I fly mostly out of grass
strips.
As you can tell by taking the prop and moving the nose of the plane left and
right, there is quite a bit of torque applied to that joint due to the
preload (breakout force) on the castor joint at the bottom. From the axis of
the
gear leg in the engine mount to where the nose wheel touches the ground there
is about a foot of leverage on the gear leg to apply this torque. If the
joint at the top cannot handle this torque, I would consider it a design issue.
In my opinion, the joint should be stronger. A larger bolt (3/8 inch) and
doublers on the weldment would beef up the joint. But, I'm not sure there is
room given the narrow shoulder at the top of the present gear leg. Could an
Allen head die bolt be used here with doublers to increase the area on the
engine mount? I am not a bona fide mechanical engineer, so I am not going to
modify the design. I hope that those at Van's will address this problem,
though.
I hope others with nose wheel airplanes will let us know if we are in the
minority, or if all of these joints loosen up. Is a grass runway harder on
this joint than pavement?
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 10/4/2006 9:44:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
cheathco(at)cox.net writes:
I mentioned a couple weeks ago finding my nose gear strut bolt loose. I
tightened and also took out the spacer for bearing which brought it tight. Now
things have looened up again and I have considerable sway on nose gear. Anybody
had this problem ? Also, if I need to change the bolt in strut mount, can a
slightly larger bolt be found and used? Charlie Heathco
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rich and Pat" <richpatzeidman(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Facet pump failure
Date: Oct 04, 2006
John,
The pump I'm using in the RV7 is also a Facet It's about 2 in in diameter
and about 6 in tall with a removeable bottom.It can be found in Aircraft
Spruce catalog. It is the same one that is used by many certified aircraft,
(Piper for sure). I'm not sure it is actually better, but it will make me
feel better.
Rich
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nose gear, 6A
From: "Jim Ellis" <JEllis9847(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Charlie,
Take a look at the following webpage. This is for a 9A, but it might work for
a 6A also.
http://www.rvwiki.org/index.php?title=Nose_Gear_Strut
Jim Ellis
RV9-A, Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65833#65833
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2006
From: "Bob J." <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Findings on the AFP purge valve
Fuel will only wash on the cylinder with an open intake valve when the
engine is shut down, and even so it probably vaporizes quickly. And any oil
in the cylinder will likely trickle down over the spot where the fuel was.
I would also bet that the fuel vaporizes before it has a chance to dribble
past the intake valve.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On 10/4/06, linn Walters wrote:
>
> The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in the
> cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls. Since Michael
> flies a whole lot, probably not a problem, but for an engine that's seldom
> run it'll mean that the steel cylinders will rust a little faster. Given
> Michaels experience with the valve ...... I'd probably do the same. Too bad
> AFP won't fix the idle cutoff problem in the controller instead of adding
> the purge valve.
> Linn
>
> *
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco(at)cox.net>
Subject: Nose gear strut update
Date: Oct 04, 2006
Hiya All, I have gotten a few replys and one sent me to a site that
stated the engine mount must be removed, lots a luck, I just replaced
the O-320 2 months ago and am not looking forward to taking it back off
to remove the engine mount. Seems that this is a somewhat common problem
that Vans does not want to adress, per replys. Im not a grad enginere,
but I am 67 yr old farm boy, and we had to come up with stuff that
engineeres never would think of to keep our our stuff working. As I view
the strut mount It is obviously a weak link. one bolt thru a short mount
to hold some heavy duty forces. I have since day one pulled the nose
gear off earlier than I ever did on my Ch-140, as that was what I got
from my buddy in Covington Ga. If I ever banged the nose gear on like I
did when learning to fly in "66 in Ch-140/180. it would probably
colapse. For those who asked for clarification of removeing the spacer
in the wheel bearing, With it in, I had a bit of wooble and with it out,
a tight fit. Seems like the only answer is to ream it out and use a
biger bolt, and that seems like one hell of a chore. Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Please read and help if you can.. Thank You
From: "rc51mike" <rc51mike(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2006
My cousin, Marcy Randolph, was on the Cessna 182, plane number N2700Q with the
pilot, William Westover, flying from Deer Valley to Sedona on 9/24 that has been
missing since that same Sunday afternoon. The Civil Air Patrol has been searching
since Tuesday 9/26. The Phoenix police are also continuing the search.
We the family are trying to touch people personally. We so greatly appreciate
the energy and time everyone has given us and are overwhelmed by the support and
caring of everyone we have come in contact with. That said we still dont have
the plane.
My request to you is outlined on the website under what you can do. Basically,
we want to rally any private pilots, any charter pilots, any forestry individuals,
medical carriers, flight school instructors and students, and anybody else
that might have a reason to be in the air and provide eyes in the sky in the
general northern Arizona region to be aware and keep their eyes and ears open.
Additionally, knowing that a great number of you enjoy the beautiful outdoors
of Arizona, either for hunting, camping, ohv riding, etc., we are asking that
you be acutely aware of this missing plane, and rally everyone that might be
on the ground in the general area. By providing areas you might have been, we
can help narrow the profile and thin the veritable haystack in which we are trying
to find the needle. Think outside the boxany information is good information.
At 9 days and counting, time is not on our side. We have recent information
that a plane was spotted briefly on radar approximately 4 miles west of Payson
at around 12:15pm 9/24. This may or may not be relevant.
The website for information exchange is http://www.N2700Q.com. Details of the LKP are contained in the introduction. Please take the flyer that is posted and distribute to your folks for briefing or feel free to forward this message to anyone you think might be able to assist us in our search. Your assistance and prayers are most appreciated.
Mike Turner
rc51mike(at)yahoo.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65854#65854
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Nose gear strut update
Aha, so the spacer you refer to is in the wheel bearing fork. I
follow you. That part eventually got filed down by degrees to a
length that allowed some preload on the bearings when the axle bolt
wsat tightened to spec. I remember doing that after my second set of
nosewheel bearings went bad. Van has redesigned this for another
model of nose wheel and it now takes a different (now sealed) bearing
and no spacer.
Best wishes, Charlie. I still think if you're going to ream, the
tapered pin is the way to go. You could re-ream and re-use same pin
several times if it ever worked loose, since the taper will take up
the slack repeatedly, while a bolt won't.
-Stormy
On 10/4/06, Charles Heathco wrote:
>
>
> Hiya All, I have gotten a few replys and one sent me to a site that stated
> the engine mount must be removed, lots a luck, I just replaced the O-320 2
> months ago and am not looking forward to taking it back off to remove the
> engine mount. Seems that this is a somewhat common problem that Vans does
> not want to adress, per replys. Im not a grad enginere, but I am 67 yr old
> farm boy, and we had to come up with stuff that engineeres never would think
> of to keep our our stuff working. As I view the strut mount It is obviously
> a weak link. one bolt thru a short mount to hold some heavy duty forces. I
> have since day one pulled the nose gear off earlier than I ever did on my
> Ch-140, as that was what I got from my buddy in Covington Ga. If I ever
> banged the nose gear on like I did when learning to fly in "66 in
> Ch-140/180. it would probably colapse. For those who asked for clarification
> of removeing the spacer in the wheel bearing, With it in, I had a bit of
> wooble and with it out, a tight fit. Seems like the only answer is to ream
> it out and use a biger bolt, and that seems like one hell of a chore.
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: Re: DRDT-2 Table
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Les, I've got 2 of the 3' X 5' tables also. Due to lack of space in my
garage for another table that will be used minimally, I just slid the two
tables together end to end and screwed the DRDT-2 to a 2 X 6, then I screwed
the 2 X 6 on to the legs of each table (so the dimpling sets were flush with
the table top). Now, when I don't need it (the DRDT-2) I can either unscrew
the dimpler form the board and leave the board on the tables (leaves me a
gap between tables about 6-8 inches wide) or remove the board completely. I
know that every time I need to do some dimpling I have to mess with screwing
either the whole setup back on or atleast the dimpler back on. But, for no
more often than you really use the dimpler it's not that big of a deal,
especially if you've got a cordless drill.
CLEAR AS MUD, right???
If you would like to see some pictures let me know.
Bill Britton
----- Original Message -----
From: "LES KEARNEY" <Kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: DRDT-2 Table
>
> Hi
>
> In anticipation of ordering an empennage kit on Tuesday next, I have been
> busy getting my workspace ready. To that end I have built two regulation
> EAA work tables and now would like to build a table / stand for a DRDT-2
> dimplier.
>
> Does anyone have plans for such a beast so I can build the table in
> advance of receiving my tool order?
>
> Many thanks
>
> Les
>
> RV10 Wannabe
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com>
Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is
going to be the last one in a while!
The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I
was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect
- and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed.
(That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab
spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never
dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up.
I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of
stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do
it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice.
Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me
out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for
that.
I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but
the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Close to finishing empennage
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise
protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is
strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail
messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in
connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to
be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not
send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This
communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or
solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information
regarding specific investment products is subject to change without
notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any
attachments from your system.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
Subject: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience?
Date: Oct 05, 2006
I've not heard much talk about the new Gretz GA-1000 pitot (and the
archives show only three hits for it, one the new product announcement
from Warren about it). Has anyone installed it yet? Has anyone flown
one yet? How about in conditions where the pitot was needed? I like
what I see on the website ... but if someone could give me some real
world feedback I'd appreciate it before I plunk down my money. I've
already spent more on pitots than I would ever want to (it is a long
story .. so you don't want to ask).
-- Dwight
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Paul, are you talking about the sides of the trim tab...the inboard
edge?
(and I guess the outboad one too).
I didn't either and just went out to look at it and realized the blind
rivets called out suggested I should.
But I'm not worried about it. I made sure there was a 1/4" gap (I
think) as
Orndorrff reminded me in his video to be sure nothing hit anything, and
it
won't. It may be close, but it won't.
There's no way I'm rebuilding the trim tab and I don't see any reason
why I
should, in the absence of an interference issue.
Bob Collins
St. Paul
RV Builder's Hotline
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Folbrecht, Paul
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:31 AM
Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is
going to be the last one in a while!
The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I
was
admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect -
and
thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad
rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the
trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those
holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up.
I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of
stress
to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and
realized I'd probably ruin the peice.
Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me
out of
a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but
the
outboard end needs to be flush for clearance.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Close to finishing empennage
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
intended
recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected
from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly
prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages,
which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with
litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure,
timely or
error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential
information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for
informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy
or
sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific
investment
products is subject to change without notice. If you received this
transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return
e-mail
and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
In a message dated 10/05/2006 9:35:50 AM Central Daylight Time,
PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com writes:
Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a
similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
>>>
Hi Paul-
You might be able to get a wood dowel (or aluminum if ya got it) about 1/2"
diameter and drill a hole in one end to accept the female dimple die- tape the
die to the dowel and stick it in the opposite end of the tab (which is not
riveted yet- just spread it apart at the spar side til you can get the dowel
inside) then position the male die through the hole in the tab and into the female
die. Tap lightly on the male die and see what happens...
You also may be able to tape the poprivet die and nail to the end of a
smaller dowel or piece of coat hangar wire and fish it into the hole from the other
end until you can grab it...
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2006
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
I've used the pop-rivet dimple die parts with a nut/bolt combo. Still requires
a little access to the behind - but not as much.
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com>
>Sent: Oct 5, 2006 10:30 AM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
>
>Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going
to be the last one in a while!
>
>The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring
how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking
about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted
about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as
the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty
big problem as it is closed up.
>
>I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to
the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized
I'd probably ruin the peice.
>
>Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls
for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar
bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
>
>I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard
end needs to be flush for clearance.
>
>Paul
>9A QB #1176
>Close to finishing empennage
>
>
>
>This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient
and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure.
Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our
company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced
at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages
cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we
recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail.
This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer
or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding
specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you
received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by
return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "smitty(at)smittysrv.com" <smitty(at)smittysrv.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Subject: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Hi Paul,
Assuming that you haven't riveted the trim tab spar in place, you should be
able to use Averys #30 pop-rivet dimple dies to dimple both holes, probably
both holes with one squeeze. I'm not sure (and can't remember), but I think
I just opened the skin just enough to pop-rivet dimple the holes separately.
Here's my entry:
http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=310
Sorry if this is not what you are looking for.
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Folbrecht, Paul PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:30:42 -0500
Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is
going to be the last one in a while!
The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was
admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and
thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad
rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the
trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those
holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up.
I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress
to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and
realized I'd probably ruin the peice.
Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out
of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the
outboard end needs to be flush for clearance.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Close to finishing empennage
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise
protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is
strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail
messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in
connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be
secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send
confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is
for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy
or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific
investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received
this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return
e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet pump failure
In a message dated 10/4/2006 4:21:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com writes:
I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one
who had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding
normal for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last
flight, I toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it
in a lab later and found it to be intermittent below 13.5 volts and would
start dithering instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel through it,
I cannot explain.
PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.
=================================
It would help us all a little to know which pump you had fail (FI high
pressure or Carb low pressure).
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" <jfogarty(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Paul,
I think you will still have enough room with the pop-rivets, I did the same
thing on my trim tab outboard end and it looks okay and I think the
clearance is just fine. If you were to look at the clearance on our
Cardinal between the stabilator and the tailcone there is hardly any room at
all between the round headed screw and the moving stabilator. Certainly
less than on the RV trim tab. Also, if you need to build a new trim tab the
complete kit for the trim tab is about $50.00. I have built two so far.:-)
Keep on riveting, you are almost done with the empennage.
Jim Fogarty
----- Original Message -----
From: <smitty(at)smittysrv.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Assuming that you haven't riveted the trim tab spar in place, you should
> be
> able to use Averys #30 pop-rivet dimple dies to dimple both holes,
> probably
> both holes with one squeeze. I'm not sure (and can't remember), but I
> think
> I just opened the skin just enough to pop-rivet dimple the holes
> separately.
>
> Here's my entry:
>
> http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=310
>
> Sorry if this is not what you are looking for.
>
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Folbrecht, Paul PFolbrecht(at)starkinvestments.com
> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:30:42 -0500
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
>
>
> Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is
> going to be the last one in a while!
>
> The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was
> admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and
> thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad
> rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the
> trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those
> holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up.
>
> I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of
> stress
> to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and
> realized I'd probably ruin the peice.
>
> Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
> calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out
> of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
>
> I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but
> the
> outboard end needs to be flush for clearance.
>
> Paul
> 9A QB #1176
> Close to finishing empennage
>
>
> This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
> intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise
> protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is
> strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail
> messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in
> connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be
> secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send
> confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is
> for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy
> or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific
> investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received
> this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return
> e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
> --
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Patrick Kelley" <webmaster(at)flion.com>
Subject: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
My $.02: Use a manual deburring tool to lightly counter sink the outermost
tab on each end. Then allow the soft CS4-4 to do its bit by conforming to
the surface. You should end up with a fairly smooth rivet and most of your
clearance. For looks and extra strength, you might use a bit of epoxy
around the rivet, but be careful not to sand into the rivet when smoothing
the area. Once painted, no one (except us) will know.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A on hiatus again while in school.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Folbrecht, Paul
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is
going to be the last one in a while!
The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was
admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and
thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad
rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the
trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those
holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up.
I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress
to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and
realized I'd probably ruin the peice.
Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that
calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of
a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that.
I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the
outboard end needs to be flush for clearance.
Paul
9A QB #1176
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Helms" <jhelms(at)nationair.com>
Subject: May the road rise to meet you...
Date: Oct 05, 2006
It has been my pleasure to serve you all as a group and many of you as
individuals over the past several years. I have accepted a position as
Assistant Vice President and Manager of the Light Aircraft Division - East
(long title I know) for American International Group, Inc (AIG for short).
Basically, that is the head of light aircraft underwriting for the east
coast for AIG. The office is in Atlanta, GA.
This was a heartwrenching decision for me and my family. NationAir was a
very good place for me, and I owe them a lot. I will still be at all the
major conventions. Please feel free to look me up at AIG's booth. I will
likely not post much about insurance here... It's really the agents duty to
interact with individual customers.
Dave McCoy (dmccoy(at)nationair.com) will be leading the rest of my former
Light Aircraft Office staff as they continue to lead the way in insuring
Vans Aircraft. Dave has over 7 years of experience in this industry. Knowing
that he will continue to serve our current customers well made my decision
just a little easier.
Jenny Estes (jestes(at)nationair.com) is handling most of our current Vans
customers and new inquiries. She's been with us for more than 5 years, and
has been helping with the Vans customers for over a year. Both Jenny and
Dave can be contacted at 877 475 5860 if they can be of any service to you.
Thank you all (ya'll?
<http://www.cirruspilots.org/w3timages/icons/smile.gif> ) and fly safe.
John "JT" Helms
former Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc
Light Aircraft Office
P.S. I thought I might finally get to drop the "JT" and become John again
(it's been 7 years since I worked with another John which is how I picked it
up), but all the staff at my new office already know me as JT as do all the
other agents. So, I guess I'm stuck with it for life.
<http://www.cirruspilots.org/w3timages/icons/smile.gif>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience?
Date: Oct 05, 2006
>
> I've got one installed and flying. It seems to work fine.
> The thermostatic control works as advertised. Somewhere in
> my pitot static system I have something causing an airspeed
> error of -1 to -2 kts, but that's pretty minimal. I had
> lots more until I got new static ports installed.
Tim - tell us more about the static ports. Which static ports gave
the errors? How much error, and in which speed range? Which ports
do you have now?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet pump failure
In a message dated 10/5/06 12:06:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Vanremog(at)aol.com writes:
> Why it didn't allow fuel through it,
> I cannot explain.
> PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.
====================================
I think you should take it apart.
It comes apart very easy, just one bog nut. Problems I found were debris
clogging and jamming the piston.
I sure would like to know what you found.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2006
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans
Hi
I know this may come across as asking if some wants to sell their first
born, but I am in the market for tools. Basically, I need just about
everything but am primarily interested in air tools including a
pneumatic
squeeze and a DTRT-2 dimplier.
Anybody too busy flying to need tools?
Cheers
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wright
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:46 PM
Subject: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans
Tim Olson and others,
I remember way back when you recommended removing your floor pans form
the
QB, not just for stray clecos but also to personally check quality of
the
Philippines. I've got all the rear ones out but can't figure an easy
way
to remove the most forward ones since the gear leg brackets are bolting
them
in. Tips?
Rob Wright
#392
Wanting to prime and soundproof..
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: yet another rivet question
From: "Jeff Bearden" <jb.flynavy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2006
I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet ok?" bit, but
I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the stiffeners into the rudder
and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but
upon inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3 of
the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening
half of the dimple.
These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match drilling
to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big hole for the
3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned out ok.
As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is perpendicular.
The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly.
Any advice to improve my technique??
Thanks,
Jeff[img][/img]
--------
-Clam
------------------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so
there was simply no way to get to the other side.
This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort
of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to
just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible.
(These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.)
Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the
slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also
didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe
1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also
another place where the side bulges just a bit.
But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called
Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can
be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be
crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I
said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe
1/32" of play).
If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could
just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end
"rib" in there.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Subject: yet another rivet question
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Jeff, this isn't particulrly unusual. But you're not holding your rivet set
completely perpendicular to the piece. Also, be sure the skin is not lifting
off the backrivet plate at all.
Bob
St. Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bearden
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:56 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question
>
>
>
> I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy
> rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back
> riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of
> an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon
> inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found
> about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially,
> the shop head is flattening half of the dimple.
>
> These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings.
> I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems
> to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move
> around in, although the rudder turned out ok.
>
> As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level
> and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about
> 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
>
> I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets
> very slowly.
>
> Any advice to improve my technique??
> Thanks,
> Jeff[img][/img]
>
> --------
> -Clam
> ------------------
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Patrick Kelley" <webmaster(at)flion.com>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
If you have so little gap, maybe you could put the tab on end on a pine
block and gently (gently!) square or concave the ends slightly with a rubber
mallet. And if it's a case of hinge play, a thin section of plastic (UHMW?)
might keep the edges from binding.
Pat Kelley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so
there was simply no way to get to the other side.
This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort
of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to
just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible.
(These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.)
Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the
slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also
didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe
1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also
another place where the side bulges just a bit.
But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called
Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can
be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be
crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I
said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe
1/32" of play).
If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could
just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end
"rib" in there.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces...
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2006
From: Steve Eberhart <steve(at)newtech.com>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Just cut off the tabs, clean up the edges and make an end rib. dimple
the skin and rib then rivet together. I didn't even mess with the
chintzy tabs, went straight to an end rib.
Steve Eberhart
RV-7A, Finish kit gets delivered next month
Patrick Kelley wrote:
>
> If you have so little gap, maybe you could put the tab on end on a pine
> block and gently (gently!) square or concave the ends slightly with a rubber
> mallet. And if it's a case of hinge play, a thin section of plastic (UHMW?)
> might keep the edges from binding.
>
> Pat Kelley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
>
>
> Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so
> there was simply no way to get to the other side.
>
> This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort
> of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to
> just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible.
> (These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.)
>
> Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the
> slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also
> didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe
> 1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also
> another place where the side bulges just a bit.
>
> But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called
> Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can
> be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be
> crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I
> said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe
> 1/32" of play).
>
> If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could
> just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end
> "rib" in there.
>
> Paul
> 9A QB #1176
> Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces...
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "WILLIAM AGSTER" <BAGSTERJR(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
Date: Oct 05, 2006
It is true about the skin lifting up off the back riveting plate. For
lack of anything better, I triple bagged some sand in one gallon zip
lock freezer bags from the kids sand box and placed one bag on each side
of the stiffner I was riveting. The instructions do mention weighting
it down as you rivet. After a couple of partial flat dimples, the light
bulb went on. It really helps with the elevators.
Bill
7A ---wings
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins<mailto:bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: yet another rivet question
>
Jeff, this isn't particulrly unusual. But you're not holding your
rivet set
completely perpendicular to the piece. Also, be sure the skin is not
lifting
off the backrivet plate at all.
Bob
St. Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Bearden
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:56 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question
>
>
>
>
> I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy
> rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back
> riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of
> an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon
> inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found
> about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially,
> the shop head is flattening half of the dimple.
>
> These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings.
> I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems
> to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move
> around in, although the rudder turned out ok.
>
> As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level
> and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about
> 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
>
> I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets
> very slowly.
>
> Any advice to improve my technique??
> Thanks,
> Jeff[img][/img]
>
> --------
> -Clam
> ------------------
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
atronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083>
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg>
>
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matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
ator?RV-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06
Linn this comment sounds a lot like some of the other urban legends that I
keep hearing since being involved in aviation. I honestly cannot understand
where this one came from. This is another thing that does have a
counterpart in automotive land. As far back as I can remember (about 1963)
automobiles have been turned off with the IGNITION switch, NOT a fuel
cutoff. Now I don't know why airplanes have to use that particular method
over just turning off the ignition but it in some ways it seems as
antiquated as the magnetos that are STILL in use on new production airplanes
today. Why do we continue to perpetuate this stuff when cars have long
since dispensed with them? We NEVER think about washing oil off the cylinder
walls of our autos, even when they had big four barrel carburetors? Not a
personal attack on you Linn, just a frustration with certain things I hear
in aviation land that are NEVER even thought about in automotive land.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Finishing wiring, soon to clear the prop.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve
>The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in the
>cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls.
>Linn
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Date: Oct 05, 2006
I was having trouble getting the ends bent right so I just cut 'em off
and bent up a little baby rib for each end out of .032. Looks like it
should have been that way all along.
Pax,
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so
there was simply no way to get to the other side.
This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort
of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to
just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible.
(These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.)
Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the
slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also
didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe
1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also
another place where the side bulges just a bit.
But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called
Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can
be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be
crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I
said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe
1/32" of play).
If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could
just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end
"rib" in there.
Paul
9A QB #1176
Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: yet another rivet question
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Jeff,
I used -4 rivets there and for most of where Van's calls for -3.5's. I
never can make 'em come out right when they're too short. I usually
measure up the first one with a rivet depth gauge (Avery or Cleaveland)
and use whatever size will work the best. Places where there're more
layers, I measure again.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bearden
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question
I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet ok?"
bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the stiffeners
into the rudder and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder stiffener
rivets turned out fine, but upon inspection of the bottom side of the
port elevator, I found about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures.
Essentially, the shop head is flattening half of the dimple.
These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match
drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big
hole for the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned
out ok.
As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun
is perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly.
Any advice to improve my technique??
Thanks,
Jeff[img][/img]
--------
-Clam
------------------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jason Hills <jason(at)hills.org>
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
Date: Oct 05, 2006
Jeff,
I don't qualify as one of the experienced folks here -- I just
started on my -8 empenage kit last weekend. But I spent last Saturday
having an experienced RV builder help me get started. He has built a
number and worked on many more (has a shop/hanger at AWO). He had me
bring my right elevator parts up to his place to work for the day, so
I started on the right elevator.
Anyway, he wasn't happy with how the 3.5 rivets were working out for
me after the first couple, so had me try 3.0's. Which although just a
hair shorter than they should be, they easily made perfect shop heads
of the right size. So we used the 3.0's for the rest of the
stiffeners. (Hmm... not sure if the kit comes with enough 3.0's, but
he had plenty for me to use).
From my less educated perspective, it seems that the 3.5 is a hair
long for the thin skin of the elevator, and the 3.0 is probably a
hair short. In any case I was able to make consistently good shop
heads with the 3.0's rather than the 3.5's called for in the plans.
I didn't have any problems with the lengths called for everywhere
else in the plans (I finished the elevator last night).
...Jason
On Oct 5, 2006, at 5:55 PM, Jeff Bearden wrote:
>
> I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet
> ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the
> stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder
> stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon inspection of the bottom
> side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3 of the rivets look
> like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening half
> of the dimple.
>
> These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm
> match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an
> awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although
> the rudder turned out ok.
>
> As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and
> the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi
> (avery 2x gun).
>
> I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very
> slowly.
>
> Any advice to improve my technique??
> Thanks,
> Jeff[img][/img]
>
> --------
> -Clam
> ------------------
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Facet pump failure
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: "Zeidman, Richard B" <richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com>
It was the low pressure Facet pump from Vans catalog. It did give me
some warning that I didn't heed. Along with not sounding quite right,
the day prior to the in flight failure, after flying around for awhile,
I stopped for fuel and could not get any fuel pressure on restart.
Thinking I had a vapor lock in my engine pump, I let the engine cool for
20 minutes and then flew home without any problems. The next day,
(5/11/05) I added a blast tube to the engine pump and flew around to
warm up the engine to see if I could get it to repeat the prior day's
event. During that flight is when I toggled the electric pump, shutting
off the engine.
Pump failure may be rare, but it does happen.
Rich
RV6A N42RZ
RV7 N42PZ
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet pump failure
In a message dated 10/4/2006 4:21:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com writes:
I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one
who had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been
sounding
normal for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last
flight, I toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it
in a lab later and found it to be intermittent below 13.5 volts and
would
start dithering instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel through
it,
I cannot explain.
PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.
================================
It would help us all a little to know which pump you had fail (FI high
pressure or Carb low pressure).
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
Jeff,
I too don't understand why the "3/32" rivets are so small for the holes. If
the rivets were .100 inch instead of .094 they would fit much better.
Now I'll give another plug for pre-squeezing the rivets. Use your squeezer
and squeeze a batch of rivets until they just fit the holes before you even
start to rivet. Once you have the squeezer adjusted this goes pretty fast.
Now when you start banging on the skin, you won't spend the first 4 or 5 hits
bringing the rivet shank up to size. The now shorter rivets are not as
likely to bend over, and the shop heads form almost as soon as you start the gun.
The result is a much better job. You don't have to start with longer rivets
-- that would defeat the purpose. Use the gauge before you pre-squeeze.
I built most of my plane this way and I get lots of unsolicited comments
about how good the riveting looks.
Please don't flame me until after you have given this a try. It really
works.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 10/5/2006 8:59:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jb.flynavy(at)gmail.com writes:
These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match
drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big hole for
the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned out ok.
As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is
perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly.
Any advice to improve my technique??
Thanks,
Jeff[img][/img]
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Subject: Re: May the road rise to meet you...
From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com>
J.T.
John,
Thanks for all the good advice and good luck in your new challenge.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
writes:
> It has been my pleasure to serve you all as a group and many of you
> as
> individuals over the past several years. I have accepted a position
> as
> Assistant Vice President and Manager of the Light Aircraft Division
> - East
> (long title I know) for American International Group, Inc (AIG for
> short).
> Basically, that is the head of light aircraft underwriting for the
> east
> coast for AIG. The office is in Atlanta, GA.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Struyk" <rv8striker(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 06, 2006
List,
I finally took the plunge and bought the Thirty 3G Lightspeeds. The day
after they arrived I used them in the corporate jet that I fly. They
worked beautifully and because the jet has Bose headsets, I was able to
do a back to back comparison, which BTW, seemed to be about even on all
points. Anyway, here's the problem. When I use the Lightspeeds in my
RV-8, I get a squeal in the interphone when the volume is turned up past
a point where I can hear the back seater. If the volume is low enough,
it goes away but so does my ability to hear my passenger. I don't think
it's feedback. It sounds more like it's related to the VOX threshold.
Once the threshold is crossed and the volume is too high, it squeals.
Turn the volume down, the VOX clips off and the squeal stops. If I put
the LS's in the rear and my "cheapos" in the front, the LS's work fine.
I tried the Bose in the RV and they work beautifully in the front or
rear. Until now (60 hours) my two cheepos have worked fine.
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to think
it's my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in my
plane and theirs does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think it
could be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem but
in the meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
RV-8 60 Hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience?
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
I got to see Tim's updated static ports last weekend (thanks again for
the ride) and the first thing I noticed is they are styled very much
like the Van's pop rivet ports. They are like a little mound sticking
out of the skin a tiny bit.
A while back I made the decision to go with the SafeAir static and pitot
tubing along with their ports. I asked lots of people about the
possible error I could see and had a wide range of answers but most
people didn't seem to have a problem with them. If I had to guess the
RV-10 might be a tad more sensitive to the static port position than the
other RV's and it really wants the port sticking out into the slipstream
a little more.
I'm probably at least a year from flying but I will be sure to post back
any errors that I see after careful calculations and multiple runs. One
solution I have heard for the people that had flush ports with errors
was to take the Vans pop rivet version, cut the head off, and glue it
over the flush ports.
I also have the Gretz GA-1000 Pitot and it is very nicely styled. It is
sandable and you can also paint it to match whatever color.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience?
Thanks for the additional info. It is good to learn that Cleaveland has
updated the design of their static ports, and that the new ones appear
to be much more suited to RVs, or at least RV-10s. I'd love to get any
reports from people who have done comprehensive static system error
testing with the new Cleaveland static ports on other RVs.
I wouldn't try to chase your -1.8 kt error - that is actually pretty
good. A lot of type-certificated aircraft have errors larger than that.
You would probably have to experiment with machining the static port to
change how much it protruded from the fuselage surface.
The ultimate answer is for EFIS manufacturers to add a feature where the
user can define a static pressure correction. The corrected static
pressure would be used for the displayed airspeed and altitude. There
are several classical ways to describe the static pressure correction.
Fly safe,
Kevin Horton
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Struyk" <rv8striker(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: HEADset woes
Date: Oct 06, 2006
List,
I finally took the plunge and bought the Thirty 3G Lightspeeds. The day
after they arrived I used them in the corporate jet that I fly. They
worked beautifully and because the jet has Bose headsets, I was able to
do a back to back comparison, which BTW, seemed to be about even on all
points. Anyway, here's the problem. When I use the Lightspeeds in my
RV-8, I get a squeal in the interphone when the volume is turned up past
a point where I can hear the back seater. If the volume is low enough,
it goes away but so does my ability to hear my passenger. I don't think
it's feedback. It sounds more like it's related to the VOX threshold.
Once the threshold is crossed and the volume is too high, it squeals.
Turn the volume down, the VOX clips off and the squeal stops. If I put
the LS's in the rear and my "cheapos" in the front, the LS's work fine.
I tried the Bose in the RV and they work beautifully in the front or
rear. Until now (60 hours) my two cheepos have worked fine.
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to think
it's my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in my
plane and theirs does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think it
could be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem but
in the meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
Hi Steve,
Does the mic on your HD (High Dollar ^-^) headset have a very tiny adjustment screw?
If so, that will set the sensitivity of the mic. Probably would only move
it a quarter turn at a time.
Regards,
David Maib
still on the tailcone!
On Friday, October 06, 2006, at 07:23AM, linn Walters
wrote:
>
><>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
>Verify that your headset jacks are proper for the headset. Are there
three prongs to match the three sections of a stereo headset. Not sure
how this works but worth checking.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: "D.Bristol" <dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06
The best reason for shutting down your aircraft engine with the mixture
instead of the switch is safety. You don't have a propeller on your car
so it doesn't matter if there's a cylinder ready to fire, but on an
airplane with a charge in a cylinder, if the prop gets moved and a mag
is hot, the engine can start. So if you shut it down by pulling the
mixture (or using the bypass valve) there is much less of a chance that
it will fire inadvertently and hurt someone.
Dave -6 So Cal
EAA Technical Counselor
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>Linn this comment sounds a lot like some of the other urban legends that I
>keep hearing since being involved in aviation. I honestly cannot understand
>where this one came from. This is another thing that does have a
>counterpart in automotive land. As far back as I can remember (about 1963)
>automobiles have been turned off with the IGNITION switch, NOT a fuel
>cutoff. Now I don't know why airplanes have to use that particular method
>over just turning off the ignition but it in some ways it seems as
>antiquated as the magnetos that are STILL in use on new production airplanes
>today. Why do we continue to perpetuate this stuff when cars have long
>since dispensed with them? We NEVER think about washing oil off the cylinder
>walls of our autos, even when they had big four barrel carburetors? Not a
>personal attack on you Linn, just a frustration with certain things I hear
>in aviation land that are NEVER even thought about in automotive land.
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
>RV-6A N197DM
>Finishing wiring, soon to clear the prop.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in the
>>cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls.
>>Linn
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Subject: Re: HEADset woes
In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:33:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rv8striker(at)hotmail.com writes:
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to think it's
my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in my plane and
theirs does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think it could
be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem but in
the meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
==============================
Hi Steve:
I think the avionics shop is on the right track but needs to refine their
thought process just a bit.
It is NOT the stereo, it is the MIC. The Mic is not stereo (not that it needs
to be) and it could very well be the MIC impedance between the two different
headsets that is causing the problem.
Now to confuse you a bit further ... It is not the headsets, it is the
intercom. Yes, there probably is a difference between the headsets impedance but
it
is the intercom, that is not being able to handle the difference that is
causing the problem.
The way to check this out is to use the same type of headset in BOTH the
front and read seats at the same time; both Bose's and then both LS.
ALSO ... It is important to check the following:
1 - Battery condition in ALL headsets.
2 - Position of the headset on the head ... Nice and secure, no air/sound
leaks around the ear pieces.
3 - MIC position ... Close to the mouth, just above the upper lip ... So when
opening the mouth in Awe (as you roll the plane) there is no rushing sound.
4 - Mic Muff - Make sure ALL mic's are muffed with that foam thing.
5 - NEVER leave a headset plugged in when it is not being used during flight.
This is especially true of Noise Canceling headsets. Doing so will cause
all sorts of noise problems.
But, I'd bet it is the intercom with one of these problems:
1 - Impedance mismatch.
2 - Intercom has only ONE Squelch control; better to have a squelch and
volume control for pilot & copilot. Note: 4 seat intercoms do not have a squelch
for the passengers.
Hope this helps.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Subject: Re: Why fuel cutoff?
In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:28:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellym(at)aviating.com writes:
So, I ask you ..... do you have a better
> reason?? Lycoming says a lot of things relating to their engines that
> I think come from a severe case of CYA. This could be one of them.
> Until I find good. meaningful data to suggest otherwise, I'll hold on
> to this "urban legend".
> Linn
===============================
Hi Linn:
I would think there are three reasons to have a fuel cutoff:
1 - If you have your wits about you ... Just before the crash you shut off
the fuel so as not to fuel the fire.
2 - Since many planes with two tanks manage their fuel with a fuel selector
switch and that switch is located in the cockpit it may just help if there is a
fuel leak in the cockpit or engine fire.
3 - It is probably an FAA requirement.
But, as for the KISS ME principal, why not eliminate all fuel lines in the
cockpit and run the lines directly to the boost pump and engine forward of the
firewall. Do away with the switch completely. I know, I know ... Fuel
management and fuel contamination.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Subject: Roll Trim - RV-6A
Hey Group:
I have been fighting with trimming out the unwanted roll to the right of an
RV-6A. Things I have done:
1 - Installed the center mounted manual trim. That worked for a while but
seems the springs or hook up wire has stretched and the plane is back to doing
rolls.
2 - I found the flaps to be out of trim when in the FULL UP position. By
giving them the slightest blip of down the roll rate decreases about 75%. I also
do not notice any change in IAS.
I found the flap problem when taking measurements while the plane was bubble
level on the ground. One flap pulls UP just a bit more than the other.
So, I am now thinking about trim tabs on the ailerons. I heard about using a
seam tool to squeeze the trailing edge. But, other than hearing about it I
have not read about it. Also, this seems like a permanent action, no means to
correct if over done.
I would appreciate to hear about your experience and cures.
Thank you,
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Roll Trim - RV-6A
FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:
> So, I am now thinking about trim tabs on the ailerons. I heard about using a
> seam tool to squeeze the trailing edge. But, other than hearing about it I
> have not read about it. Also, this seems like a permanent action, no means to
> correct if over done.
> I would appreciate to hear about your experience and cures.
A search on "squeezing & aileron" (leave off the quotes) on the
Matronics search engine yielded 103 hits on this very frequently and
extensively discussed topic:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html
Sam Buchanan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: stopping the engine
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Howdy Dean and Linn (and anyone else)-
I agree absolutely about the OWT. It never ceases to amaze me how
pervasive they are.
WRT using the mixture to kill the engine, I was taught and believe it's
real value is as a test of the system. The IGN gets tested during runup.
Idle C/O gets tested at shut down. Just that simple.
WRT auto IGN sys, I've got almost 300K miles on my Saturn, with only the
occasional plug and wire swaps. Otherwise, it's been bullet proof. We
ought to be able to adapt / adopt that kind of thing technology.
Nomex undies in place, HALON in one hand and keyboard in the other...
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: scott bilinski <rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HEADset woes
Try to duplicate the problem on the ground with out the engine running.....
.....I am not sure what exactly this will indicate, but somebody here with
more knowelegeable than me might be able to make a connection to the proble
m. I would think if the issue is not duplicated, there might be a mic probl
em as others mentioned.=0A=0A=0A =0AScott Bilinski=0ARV-8a=0A=0A=0A----- Or
iginal Message ----=0AFrom: "FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com" <FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com>=0ATo: rv-
list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, October 6, 2006 9:36:13 AM=0ASubject: Re
: RV-List: HEADset woes=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 10/6/2006 10:33:59 AM Ea
stern Standard Time, rv8striker(at)hotmail.com writes:=0AI've talked to the te
chs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to think it's my airplane...but w
hy does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in my plane and theirs does not?=0A
=0AI also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think it c
ould be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)=0A =0AM
y next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem but in
the meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.=0A =0ASteve Stru
yk=0ASt. Charles MO=0A=================
===============0AHi Steve:=0A =0AI think the av
ionics shop is on the right track but needs to refine their thought process
just a bit.=0A =0AIt is NOT the stereo, it is the MIC. The Mic is not ster
eo (not that it needs to be) and it could very well be the MIC impedance be
tween the two different headsets that is causing the problem.=0ANow to conf
use you a bit further ... It is not the headsets, it is the intercom. Yes,
there probably is a difference between the headsets impedance but it is th
e intercom, that is not being able to handle the difference that is causing
the problem.=0AThe way to check this out is to use the same type of headse
t in BOTH the front and read seats at the same time; both Bose's and then b
oth LS.=0AALSO ... It is important to check the following:=0A1 - Battery co
ndition in ALL headsets.=0A2 - Position of the headset on the head ... Nice
and secure, no air/sound leaks around the ear pieces.=0A3 - MIC position .
.. Close to the mouth, just above the upper lip ... So when opening the mou
th in Awe (as you roll the plane) there is no rushing sound.=0A4 - Mic Muff
- Make sure ALL mic's are muffed with that foam thing.=0A5 - NEVER leave a
headset plugged in when it is not being used during flight. This is espec
ially true of Noise Canceling headsets. Doing so will cause all sorts of n
oise problems.=0A =0ABut, I'd bet it is the intercom with one of these prob
lems:=0A1 - Impedance mismatch. =0A2 - Intercom has only ONE Squelch contr
ol; better to have a squelch and volume control for pilot & copilot. Note:
4 seat intercoms do not have a squelch for the passengers.=0A =0AHope this
=========================0A
========0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" <jfogarty(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06
Date: Oct 06, 2006
Dave, That is excellent advise. I'm sure we have all read this
somewhere or heard this from our CFI, but thanks for telling all of us
again.
Jim
RV9a
----- Original Message -----
From: D.Bristol
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06
The best reason for shutting down your aircraft engine with the
mixture instead of the switch is safety. You don't have a propeller on
your car so it doesn't matter if there's a cylinder ready to fire, but
on an airplane with a charge in a cylinder, if the prop gets moved and a
mag is hot, the engine can start. So if you shut it down by pulling the
mixture (or using the bypass valve) there is much less of a chance that
it will fire inadvertently and hurt someone.
Dave -6 So Cal
EAA Technical Counselor
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
Linn this comment sounds a lot like some of the other urban legends that
I
keep hearing since being involved in aviation. I honestly cannot
understand
where this one came from. This is another thing that does have a
counterpart in automotive land. As far back as I can remember (about
1963)
automobiles have been turned off with the IGNITION switch, NOT a fuel
cutoff. Now I don't know why airplanes have to use that particular
method
over just turning off the ignition but it in some ways it seems as
antiquated as the magnetos that are STILL in use on new production
airplanes
today. Why do we continue to perpetuate this stuff when cars have long
since dispensed with them? We NEVER think about washing oil off the
cylinder
walls of our autos, even when they had big four barrel carburetors? Not
a
personal attack on you Linn, just a frustration with certain things I
hear
in aviation land that are NEVER even thought about in automotive land.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Finishing wiring, soon to clear the prop.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve
The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in
the
cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls.
Linn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
10/6/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: Charles Reiche <charlieray(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: HEADset woes
What kind of Intercom?
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Struyk
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RV-List: HEADset woes
List,
I finally took the plunge and bought the Thirty 3G Lightspeeds. The day after
they arrived I used them in the corporate jet that I fly. They worked beautifully
and because the jet has Bose headsets, I was able to do a back to back comparison,
which BTW, seemed to be about even on all points. Anyway, here's the
problem. When I use the Lightspeeds in my RV-8, I get a squeal in the interphone
when the volume is turned up past a point where I can hear the back seater.
If the volume is low enough, it goes away but so does my ability to hear my
passenger. I don't think it's feedback. It sounds more like it's related to the
VOX threshold. Once the threshold is crossed and the volume is too high, it
squeals. Turn the volume down, the VOX clips off and the squeal stops. If I put
the LS's in the rear and my "cheapos" in the front, the LS's work fine. I tried
the Bose in the RV and they work beautifully in the front or rear. Until now
(60 hours) my two cheepos have worked fine.
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to think it's
my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in my plane and theirs
does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think it could be
a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem but in the
meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Struyk" <rv8striker(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: HEADset woes
Date: Oct 06, 2006
I've had several people ask about my intercom. It's a Garmin 340 audio
panel.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Reiche
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: HEADset woes
What kind of Intercom?
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Struyk
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RV-List: HEADset woes
List,
I finally took the plunge and bought the Thirty 3G Lightspeeds. The
day after they arrived I used them in the corporate jet that I fly. They
worked beautifully and because the jet has Bose headsets, I was able to
do a back to back comparison, which BTW, seemed to be about even on all
points. Anyway, here's the problem. When I use the Lightspeeds in my
RV-8, I get a squeal in the interphone when the volume is turned up past
a point where I can hear the back seater. If the volume is low enough,
it goes away but so does my ability to hear my passenger. I don't think
it's feedback. It sounds more like it's related to the VOX threshold.
Once the threshold is crossed and the volume is too high, it squeals.
Turn the volume down, the VOX clips off and the squeal stops. If I put
the LS's in the rear and my "cheapos" in the front, the LS's work fine.
I tried the Bose in the RV and they work beautifully in the front or
rear. Until now (60 hours) my two cheepos have worked fine.
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to
think it's my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in
my plane and theirs does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think
it could be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the problem
but in the meantime any ideas from you guys would be appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Bell" <brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: HEADset woes
Date: Oct 06, 2006
I have found in my RV-4 if the ear pieces are not seated or tight to the
ear I can get some weird nose. My sun glasses can cause a leak.
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
RV-4 N23BB
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Struyk
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: HEADset woes
I've had several people ask about my intercom. It's a Garmin 340 audio
panel.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Reiche
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: HEADset woes
What kind of Intercom?
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Struyk
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RV-List: HEADset woes
List,
I finally took the plunge and bought the Thirty 3G Lightspeeds.
The day after they arrived I used them in the corporate jet that I fly.
They worked beautifully and because the jet has Bose headsets, I was
able to do a back to back comparison, which BTW, seemed to be about even
on all points. Anyway, here's the problem. When I use the Lightspeeds in
my RV-8, I get a squeal in the interphone when the volume is turned up
past a point where I can hear the back seater. If the volume is low
enough, it goes away but so does my ability to hear my passenger. I
don't think it's feedback. It sounds more like it's related to the VOX
threshold. Once the threshold is crossed and the volume is too high, it
squeals. Turn the volume down, the VOX clips off and the squeal stops.
If I put the LS's in the rear and my "cheapos" in the front, the LS's
work fine. I tried the Bose in the RV and they work beautifully in the
front or rear. Until now (60 hours) my two cheepos have worked fine.
I've talked to the techs a LS and they have no idea. They seem to
think it's my airplane...but why does brand "B" (and my cheepos) work in
my plane and theirs does not?
I also talked to the guys in the avionics shop at work. They think
it could be a mismatch between the LS's (stereo) and my cheepos. (mono)
My next step is to try two stereo sets and see if that's the
problem but in the meantime any ideas from you guys would be
appreciated.
Steve Struyk
St. Charles MO
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
From: Doug Gray <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Oct 07, 2006
I use half that pressure and only about 4-5 hits with a 3x gun when back
riveting onto a steel plate.
Doug Gray
>
> I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet ok?" bit,
but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the stiffeners into the rudder
and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine,
but upon inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3
of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening
half of the dimple.
>
> These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match drilling
to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big hole for the
3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned out ok.
>
> As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is perpendicular.
The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
>
> I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly.
>
> Any advice to improve my technique??
> Thanks,
> Jeff[img][/img]
>
> --------
> -Clam
> ------------------
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
Jeff Bearden wrote:
>As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is perpendicular.
The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun).
>
Your pressure seems very high. I also have an avery 2X gun and only use
25 psi for these rivets. I only go up to the pressure you mention if I
am setting the longer lengths of 1/8" rivets.
Dick Tasker
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hans Conser <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
Date: Oct 06, 2006
From Tulsaworld.com:
Inhofe, his aide safe after plane crash-lands
By JIM MYERS World Washington Bureau
10/6/2006
View in Print (PDF) Format
U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe and an aide escaped injury Thursday when the
small plane the Oklahoma Republican was flying spun out of control
after landing at Tulsa's Jones Riverside Airport.
"No scrapes or bruises. No nicks or cuts. No injuries at all," said
Danny Finnerty, Inhofe's long-time aide, who was sitting behind the
senator in the two-seat aircraft.
"We walked away from the plane."
Finnerty, reached by telephone, said they landed about 8 p.m. and that
the plane had slowed down to about taxi speed.
"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.
"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been, so
it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
spun around a couple of times. "
According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the RV-8
single-engine aircraft "ground-looped," or went out of control, upon
landing.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as an experimental model
rated for aerobatics, suffered significant damage.
"The plane looks a lot worse than it was," he said.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as a "tail dragger," was
built for the senator by a professional a few years ago.
The RV-8 aircraft is known as a "kit-plane." Such planes'
manufacturers provide a kit from which to build the aircraft from the
ground up, according to the manufacturer, Van's Aircraft.
Inhofe, 71, is a veteran pilot who owns several planes.
Finnerty said the senator was returning from Duncan after a day of
campaigning for candidates running for state legislative seats. Earlier
in the day, he said, Inhofe had flown to Guthrie and then made several
stops by car before flying on to Duncan.
Finnerty said no problems appeared during the flight.
"It was an absolutely perfect flight from Duncan," he said. "The
landing was perfectly normal, and then that happened."
Finnerty was unsure whether the National Transportation Safety Board
would have to investigate.
"I am certain the FAA will come out and take a look at the plane," he
said, adding that the plane was left on the runway until permission was
given to move it.
Inhofe did not comment on the incident.
The senator was forced to make an emergency landing in 1999 at the
Claremore Municipal Airport after the propeller fell off the Grumman
American AA-5B he was flying.
The NTSB investigated that incident, and its report blamed an error on
the prop installation.
Inhofe, who was flying alone that day, also escaped that incident
without injury.
His plane was cruising at 2,500 feet when it lost the entire propeller
assembly.
After the plane began to porpoise, Inhofe made a forced landing on a
grassy section between a runway and a taxiway.
World staff writer Clifton Adcock contributed to this story.
nhofe, his aide safe after plane crash-lands
By JIM MYERS World Washington Bureau
10/6/2006
View in Print (PDF) Format
U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe and an aide escaped injury Thursday when the
small plane the Oklahoma Republican was flying spun out of control
after landing at Tulsa's Jones Riverside Airport.
"No scrapes or bruises. No nicks or cuts. No injuries at all," said
Danny Finnerty, Inhofe's long-time aide, who was sitting behind the
senator in the two-seat aircraft.
"We walked away from the plane."
Finnerty, reached by telephone, said they landed about 8 p.m. and that
the plane had slowed down to about taxi speed.
"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.
"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been, so
it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
spun around a couple of times. "
According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the RV-8
single-engine aircraft "ground-looped," or went out of control, upon
landing.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as an experimental model
rated for aerobatics, suffered significant damage.
"The plane looks a lot worse than it was," he said.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as a "tail dragger," was
built for the senator by a professional a few years ago.
The RV-8 aircraft is known as a "kit-plane." Such planes'
manufacturers provide a kit from which to build the aircraft from the
ground up, according to the manufacturer, Van's Aircraft.
Inhofe, 71, is a veteran pilot who owns several planes.
Finnerty said the senator was returning from Duncan after a day of
campaigning for candidates running for state legislative seats. Earlier
in the day, he said, Inhofe had flown to Guthrie and then made several
stops by car before flying on to Duncan.
Finnerty said no problems appeared during the flight.
"It was an absolutely perfect flight from Duncan," he said. "The
landing was perfectly normal, and then that happened."
Finnerty was unsure whether the National Transportation Safety Board
would have to investigate.
"I am certain the FAA will come out and take a look at the plane," he
said, adding that the plane was left on the runway until permission was
given to move it.
Inhofe did not comment on the incident.
The senator was forced to make an emergency landing in 1999 at the
Claremore Municipal Airport after the propeller fell off the Grumman
American AA-5B he was flying.
The NTSB investigated that incident, and its report blamed an error on
the prop installation.
Inhofe, who was flying alone that day, also escaped that incident
without injury.
His plane was cruising at 2,500 feet when it lost the entire propeller
assembly.
After the plane began to porpoise, Inhofe made a forced landing on a
grassy section between a runway and a taxiway.
World staff writer Clifton Adcock contributed to this story.
Jim Myers (202) 484-1424
jim.myers(at)tulsaworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/4/2006 2:44:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Vanremog(at)aol.com writes:
811 hrs same pump (carbureted in my case) mounted all standard per Van's
instructions yadda yadda also perfectamundo. Let's not re-engineer this area,
folks.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
=============================
ONLY that the little square thing should have a filter on the intake side.
As I said before, I repaired three pumps due to debris jamming the piston.
Other than that they work fine.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/3/2006 11:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
So not having looked inside one, if the piston jams on junk, will it still
flow fuel if the mechanical pump is working ? In other words, does it fail in
a
safe mode ?
Thanks Bill S
=================================
Bill:
It all depends on what you consider the safe? Yes, it will pass fuel. Will
it pass fuel in a high enough quantity for a take off, or when switching from
a dry tank, or when the throttle is fire-walled? I don't think so! And I
don't want to take the chance.
I know it will NOT pass fuel from a DRY PRIME START.
The cure is simply install a filter on BOTH feeds from the wing before it
hits the pump. The round Facet Pumps have a filter built into the bottom.
Van's did a great job designing our planes, GREAT, not PERFECT! And we are
here to help. I point out the use of a pop-rivet for the static port. Now how
many have used that method?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Subject: Re: Roll Trim - RV-6A
Sam:
Thank you for the information and the link, I'll try it.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Applying cowl heat shield material
From: "shirleyh" <shirleyh(at)oceanbroadband.net>
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Listers - during the test period on my RV6 I noticed scorch marks on the lower
cowl. I've ordered the cowl heat shield material from Vans. Are there any tips
from those who have already done it regarding the best way to apply it? I'm thinking
about surface preparation of the cowl to ensure good adhesion and techniques
for smooth application.
All advice gratefully accepted.
Shirley in Perth, Western Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66321#66321
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
>From: Hans Conser <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
>U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe and an aide escaped injury Thursday when the
>small plane the Oklahoma Republican was flying spun out of control
>after landing at Tulsa's Jones Riverside Airport.
>
>"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.
>
>"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been,
>so it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
>spun around a couple of times."
Humm, it's not like a politician to make excuses. May be it's because he
just messed up? May be.
>"The plane looks a lot worse than it was," he said.
Hmmm of course,
>Finnerty said the plane, which he described as a "tail dragger," was
>built for the senator by a professional a few years ago.
I wounder is that legal?
It's good politicians fly, and fly home builts, just wish they would
take more responsibility and not lie so much.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
Inhofe is a work, and lives in in his own reality. When the Tiger prop fell off
he balamed liberals.
"I was a Republican until they lost there minds." Charles Barkley
The senator was forced to make an emergency landing in 1999 at the
Claremore Municipal Airport after the propeller fell off the Grumman
American AA-5B he was flying.
The NTSB investigated that incident, and its report blamed an error on
the prop installation.
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
I think I know what you mean by "in in (sic) his own reality," but
then I come to "balamed" and I'm not so sure anymore. Then there's
the substitution of "there minds" for "their minds" and I begin to
detect a Gummint Schoo' grad-u-it liberal bias, perhaps?
I'll venture a guess that most of us on the List are simply glad
everyone's okay, quietly thinking out the whole nosewheel-tailwheel
controversy once more to ourselves, and, while we're not all of one
political persuasion by any means, wonder whether you come in peace or
have come to troll.
I'd like to see for myself Sen. Inhofe's statement linking the prop
accident to liberals. Would you post that here, Sherm?
Thank you, buddy. I typed this slowly, in case you don't read real fast.
-Stormy
On 10/7/06, Sherman Butler wrote:
> Inhofe is a work, and lives in in his own reality. When the Tiger prop fell
> off he balamed liberals.
>
>
> "I was a Republican until they lost there minds." Charles Barkley
>
>
> The senator was forced to make an emergency landing in 1999 at the
> Claremore Municipal Airport after the propeller fell off the Grumman
> American AA-5B he was flying.
>
> The NTSB investigated that incident, and its report blamed an error on
> the prop installation.
>
>
> Sherman Butler
> RV-7a Wings
> Idaho Falls
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
From: "Jeff Bearden" <jb.flynavy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Thanks Gents. I'll experiment with each. Think I'll start with reducing the pressure
at the gun. Maybe not banging the snot outta the rivets will help. Be
gentle with the rivets, the rivets are your friends; right??
Used to tell people the same thing teachin em to ski the bumps....
-Jeff
--------
-Jeff Bearden
Acworth, GA
RV-8
------------------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66344#66344
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: John Huft <rv8(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: Re: Applying cowl heat shield material
Shirley
If you just do a good job of degreasing it will stick fine. The problems
come in that the stuff will not stretch at all, so you have to cut it
into pieces to make it conform to the compound curves of the cowl.
Mine has been fine for 3 years or so now.
John
shirleyh wrote:
>
> Listers - during the test period on my RV6 I noticed scorch marks on the lower
cowl. I've ordered the cowl heat shield material from Vans. Are there any tips
from those who have already done it regarding the best way to apply it? I'm
thinking about surface preparation of the cowl to ensure good adhesion and techniques
for smooth application.
>
> All advice gratefully accepted.
>
> Shirley in Perth, Western Australia
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66321#66321
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hans Conser <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
Date: Oct 07, 2006
On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:40 AM, wrote:
>
>
> Humm, it'snot like a politician to make excuses. May be it's because
> he
> just messed up? May be.
>
>
> >"The plane looks a lot worse than it was," he said.
>
> Hmmm of course,
>
> >Finnerty said the plane, which he described as a "tail dragger," was
> >built for the senator by a professional a few years ago.
>
> I wounder is that legal?
> It'sgood politicians fly, and flyhome builts, just wish they would
> take more responsibility and not lie so much.
>
> Cheers George
>
Hey, you are talking about a fellow RV pilot here who is on OUR side,
cut the guy some slack! Most high-time tail dragger pilots I know have
groundlooped at least once...
Yes it IS legal to have someone else build a plane for you. Ain't
America great? Think about it though, if no one but the builder could
fly a homebuilt plane, no one could ever sell their plane, or let
another pilot touch the controls of that plane. Would that make much
sense?
Cheers
Hans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:
> It all depends on what you consider the safe? Yes, it will pass fuel. Will
> it pass fuel in a high enough quantity for a take off, or when switching from
> a dry tank, or when the throttle is fire-walled? I don't think so! And I
> don't want to take the chance.
> I know it will NOT pass fuel from a DRY PRIME START.
> The cure is simply install a filter on BOTH feeds from the wing before it
> hits the pump. The round Facet Pumps have a filter built into the bottom.
> Van's did a great job designing our planes, GREAT, not PERFECT! And we are
> here to help. I point out the use of a pop-rivet for the static port. Now how
> many have used that method?
How many have used pop rivets for the static ports? I suspect it would
be close to 90% of all flying RV's. And the pop rivet port is more
accurate than the alternate, "properly engineered" ports. :-)
The little square Facet pump does indeed appear to be sorta rinky-dink
for our highly engineered, garage-built airplanes, and it sounds awful.
But the thing has a great field history in hundreds and hundreds of
aircraft. There have obviously been isolated failures, but that is the
case with nearly every component on our planes. If a builder decides to
replace the pump with something more "appropriate", so be it, just be
sure safety issues aren't being introduced by tampering with a proven
design. By the way, the Facet pump on my plane was able to produce fuel
flow from a "dry prime". The same was true of the two Facet pumps I have
in automotive applications. The pump certainly has a limit as to how
high a column of fuel it can pull, but it seems in our RV application
there is sufficient head pressure, at least with ample fuel in the tank,
for the pump to self-prime.
If debris large enough to repeatedly clog the Facet was in my fuel
system, I would open up the tanks and find out where it was coming from!
I have the optional Vans fuel pickups with the screens, and that is as
fine a filter as I want near the fuel tank. Usually, filters are very
coarse near the fuel pickup, then get finer the closer you get to the
carb. The gascolator is fine enough to pick up any particles large
enough to clog carb jets, and the only stuff I have found in the
gascolator screen in nearly 800 hrs was a few tiny black specks when the
plane was new.
A couple of years ago I purchased two glass automotive filters that I
intended to put in the wing roots and then remove the gascolator.
But....I chickened out after reconsidering why I would mess with a fuel
system that had been flawless for hundreds of hours on my RV, and
countless thousands of hours on other planes.
I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from exploring ways to
improve the RV breed, but it is probably good for new builders to be
very wary of changing critical flight systems without considering the
proven track record of planes that have been in service for a long time.
Sam Buchanan (1999 RV-6 Classic, 784 hrs)
EAA Tech Counselor
http://thervjournal.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
Date: Oct 07, 2006
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Conser" <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
<<>>
> Yes it IS legal to have someone else build a plane for you. Ain't America
> great? Think about it though, if no one but the builder could fly a
> homebuilt plane, no one could ever sell their plane, or let another pilot
> touch the controls of that plane. Would that make much sense?
>
> Cheers
>
> Hans
It is not legal to have someone build an aircraft for you. Period.
Amateur/Experimentals are built for recreation and education, NOT as a money
making venture, which is where professional builders violate the rules.
>From an article written by Ron Alexander and published in Sport Aviation:
"To continue our discussion of FAR 21.191(g), it is clear that to
certificate an airplane under the experimental category for amateur-built
operation, we must assemble and construct at least 51% of the airplane. The
FAA emphasizes this restriction in at least two publications. The first is
FAA Order 8130.2C, which is the airworthiness certification manual used by
FAA Inspectors as a guide to inspect an airplane and to issue an
airworthiness certificate. On page 116 of that guide, the following
guidelines appear under the eligibility section. (1) "Amateur-built aircraft
may be eligible for an experimental airworthiness certificate when the
applicant presents satisfactory evidence that the aircraft was fabricated
and assembled by an individual or group of individuals." This section goes
on to state that the project must be undertaken for educational or
recreational purposes and the FAA must find that the airplane complies with
acceptable standards. Aircraft that are manufactured and assembled as a
business for sale are not considered to be amateur-built. This statement
appears within the Order: "NOTE: Amateur-built kit owner(s) will jeopardize
eligibility for certification under FAR 21.191(g) if someone else builds the
airplane." The applicant for amateur-built certification must sign a
notarized form (FAA Form 8130-12), certifying the major portion was
fabricated and assembled for educational or recreational purposes, and that
evidence is available to support the statement. The second place the 51%
rule is emphasized is in Advisory Circular 20-27D on page 5 under 7(b). This
section simply emphasizes the major portion rule."
As amateurs, we have a huge amount of leeway in building our own aircraft.
Wouldn't it be a huge shame if the FAA had a knee jerk reaction to this or
other instances of pro-built aircraft and made a mess of things for those of
us who follow the rules?
KB
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 07, 2006
I remember reading from EAA the following statistics.
Running out of gas was the number 1 cause of engine stoppage in Amateur
Built aircraft.
Number 2 was fuel stoppage due to changes in fuel system.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,953 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Dickson <robert@thenews-journal.com>
Subject: paint issues
Date: Oct 07, 2006
I've got an RV-6A that was painted (for the first time) last
November. I was, and am, pleased with my paint job. Most of the flaws
are due to my errors, not the paint shop.
That said, over the past several months I've had the paint start
making little bubbles in a ring around some of the stainless screw
heads on the fuel tanks and the wing tips. It's obvious that at some
point these bubbles are going to crack and the paint is going to
flake off.
The paint shop said I had a year warranty so I went back to see the
painter this past week. He was really scratching his head over how to
keep this from happening again after he fixes the current problem.
The screws were all hand-tightened after the plane was painted so I'm
pretty sure they weren't over torqued.
I assured the painter, a conscientious young man who has painted many
airplanes, that there are bunches of RVs out there flying around with
unpainted stainless screws holding the tanks and tips on that don't
have my problem. He doesn't seem to doubt me but I don't think he
feels confident that he can apply the paint so it won't happen again.
My opinion is that he just put too much paint on but he doesn't think
so.
So I thought I'd ask the list what your experiences are in this area.
Do you have unpainted stainless screws attaching your tanks and wing
tips? Have you had any problem with bubbles forming around the
screws? Is is just too much paint? Or contamination? I told the
painter I'd ask these questions and report back.
thanks,
Robert Dickson
RV-6A
Carrboro NC
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
I see your point there, Kyle, and largely agree, especially with not
wanting to lose a precious privilege. However, there are alot of
repeat offenders out there who build an RV and have hardly flown the
time off before they have it up for sale and are building again. And
it's hard to imagine building an experimental airplane kit, even for
the tenth time, and not learning anything from it or enjoying the
process. If we're learning and enjoying, I believe we've got
"recreation and education" pretty well covered, even for purposes of
parsing words in court. (That could depend on what your definition of
"is" is .)
-Stormy
On 10/7/06, Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hans Conser" <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
>
>
> <<>>
>
> > Yes it IS legal to have someone else build a plane for you. Ain't America
> > great? Think about it though, if no one but the builder could fly a
> > homebuilt plane, no one could ever sell their plane, or let another pilot
> > touch the controls of that plane. Would that make much sense?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Hans
>
>
> It is not legal to have someone build an aircraft for you. Period.
> Amateur/Experimentals are built for recreation and education, NOT as a money
> making venture, which is where professional builders violate the rules.
>
> >From an article written by Ron Alexander and published in Sport Aviation:
>
> "To continue our discussion of FAR 21.191(g), it is clear that to
> certificate an airplane under the experimental category for amateur-built
> operation, we must assemble and construct at least 51% of the airplane. The
> FAA emphasizes this restriction in at least two publications. The first is
> FAA Order 8130.2C, which is the airworthiness certification manual used by
> FAA Inspectors as a guide to inspect an airplane and to issue an
> airworthiness certificate. On page 116 of that guide, the following
> guidelines appear under the eligibility section. (1) "Amateur-built aircraft
> may be eligible for an experimental airworthiness certificate when the
> applicant presents satisfactory evidence that the aircraft was fabricated
> and assembled by an individual or group of individuals." This section goes
> on to state that the project must be undertaken for educational or
> recreational purposes and the FAA must find that the airplane complies with
> acceptable standards. Aircraft that are manufactured and assembled as a
> business for sale are not considered to be amateur-built. This statement
> appears within the Order: "NOTE: Amateur-built kit owner(s) will jeopardize
> eligibility for certification under FAR 21.191(g) if someone else builds the
> airplane." The applicant for amateur-built certification must sign a
> notarized form (FAA Form 8130-12), certifying the major portion was
> fabricated and assembled for educational or recreational purposes, and that
> evidence is available to support the statement. The second place the 51%
> rule is emphasized is in Advisory Circular 20-27D on page 5 under 7(b). This
> section simply emphasizes the major portion rule."
>
>
> As amateurs, we have a huge amount of leeway in building our own aircraft.
> Wouldn't it be a huge shame if the FAA had a knee jerk reaction to this or
> other instances of pro-built aircraft and made a mess of things for those of
> us who follow the rules?
>
> KB
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
Date: Oct 07, 2006
> And for those with the AF pump, how do you service that filter without
> having fuel spilling all over the the floor and carpet.
1. Fuel valve OFF when you do this.
2. If you can, let the plane sit overnight (after the last run) before you
crack open the fittings at the filter.
3. Put a rag under it.
A little fuel does drip out, but if you keep the filter *level* as you
remove it, you shouldn't spill any. Once you have the filter out of the
airplane, tip it and dump out whatever residual fuel was in there.
I've done this half a dozen times and it's no big deal. Obviously don't do
it with the system pressurized. ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1088 hours)
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: <skybolt(at)erols.com>
Subject: KLX-135A Wiring Diagram
Date: Oct 07, 2006
Would anyone on the list have a King KLX-135A wiring diagram? Need
diagram that depicts avionics rack connector pin arrangement,
specifically which pins are used for database update cable.
H. Williamson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Lynch" <rv6lynch(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: KLX-135A Wiring Diagram
Date: Oct 07, 2006
I've got one, ping me direct and I will get it for you tomorrow.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2006
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
The easiest solution to this problem is to purchase the kit, ship it to the person
building the airplane. Have that person build it, and that person apply for
the airworthiness certificate.
That way, the person who built it, did it for "recreation and education." Then,
the builder sells it to the new owner for the construction fees. Perfectly
within the regs at that point. Kind of a loophole, but nevertheless, you are
"buying" the airplane from the person who built it, not paying them to build
and claim that you are the builder. The only thing is, the new owner can't have
a repairman's certficate, but he shouldn't anyway if he didn't build it.
One problem with this solution is, however, is that the "professional kit builder"
mentioned above, now has his name on the airworthiness certficate forever,
and if he does many different aircraft, then he is opening up many legal windows
for anyone who may have an accident in one of the airplanes down the road.
Agreed on the previous statements, however, that if this industry doesn't play
by the rules, experimental aviation could be changed significantly.
Paul Besing
Kyle Boatright wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Conser"
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
<<>>
> Yes it IS legal to have someone else build a plane for you. Ain't America
> great? Think about it though, if no one but the builder could fly a
> homebuilt plane, no one could ever sell their plane, or let another pilot
> touch the controls of that plane. Would that make much sense?
>
> Cheers
>
> Hans
It is not legal to have someone build an aircraft for you. Period.
Amateur/Experimentals are built for recreation and education, NOT as a money
making venture, which is where professional builders violate the rules.
>From an article written by Ron Alexander and published in Sport Aviation:
"To continue our discussion of FAR 21.191(g), it is clear that to
certificate an airplane under the experimental category for amateur-built
operation, we must assemble and construct at least 51% of the airplane. The
FAA emphasizes this restriction in at least two publications. The first is
FAA Order 8130.2C, which is the airworthiness certification manual used by
FAA Inspectors as a guide to inspect an airplane and to issue an
airworthiness certificate. On page 116 of that guide, the following
guidelines appear under the eligibility section. (1) "Amateur-built aircraft
may be eligible for an experimental airworthiness certificate when the
applicant presents satisfactory evidence that the aircraft was fabricated
and assembled by an individual or group of individuals." This section goes
on to state that the project must be undertaken for educational or
recreational purposes and the FAA must find that the airplane complies with
acceptable standards. Aircraft that are manufactured and assembled as a
business for sale are not considered to be amateur-built. This statement
appears within the Order: "NOTE: Amateur-built kit owner(s) will jeopardize
eligibility for certification under FAR 21.191(g) if someone else builds the
airplane." The applicant for amateur-built certification must sign a
notarized form (FAA Form 8130-12), certifying the major portion was
fabricated and assembled for educational or recreational purposes, and that
evidence is available to support the statement. The second place the 51%
rule is emphasized is in Advisory Circular 20-27D on page 5 under 7(b). This
section simply emphasizes the major portion rule."
As amateurs, we have a huge amount of leeway in building our own aircraft.
Wouldn't it be a huge shame if the FAA had a knee jerk reaction to this or
other instances of pro-built aircraft and made a mess of things for those of
us who follow the rules?
KB
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com>
Subject: RE: KLX-135A Wiring Diagram
Date: Oct 08, 2006
Bob Nuckolls has a lot of pinout guides on his website at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data. The KLX-135 included.
Matthew
RV-9A :: N523RV
www.n523rv.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2006
Subject: Re: Applying cowl heat shield material
In a message dated 10/7/2006 5:49:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
shirleyh(at)oceanbroadband.net writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "shirleyh"
Listers - during the test period on my RV6 I noticed scorch marks on the
lower cowl. I've ordered the cowl heat shield material from Vans. Are there any
tips from those who have already done it regarding the best way to apply it?
I'm thinking about surface preparation of the cowl to ensure good adhesion
and techniques for smooth application.
All advice gratefully accepted.
Shirley in Perth, Western Australia
Shirley,
Just clean the cowl good. I used MEK but anything that will cut oil would
probably be OK. Put it on in several pieces starting at the bottom like you
would if you were roofing so it will shed all the oil that leaks out of your
engine (grin). Where the compound curves are you need smaller or narrower
pieces so that it won't try to bunch up too much. Don't try to make it look
perfect! Just cover anything that is near the exhaust. It is really easier to
do than to talk about.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2006
Subject: Re: Applying cowl heat shield material
In a message dated 10/7/2006 5:49:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
shirleyh(at)oceanbroadband.net writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "shirleyh"
Listers - during the test period on my RV6 I noticed scorch marks on the
lower cowl. I've ordered the cowl heat shield material from Vans. Are there any
tips from those who have already done it regarding the best way to apply it?
I'm thinking about surface preparation of the cowl to ensure good adhesion
and techniques for smooth application.
All advice gratefully accepted.
Shirley in Perth, Western Australia
I forgot to mention to coat the inside of the cowl with epoxy thinned with
acetone like Vans manual says to. Brush it in good to fill the pinholes --
mainly for the areas that won't get the heat shield.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2006
From: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Senator Ground Loops RV-8
Not true at all. This is a common way of getting around the regs, not
operating within them. This certainly violates the spirit, and probablt
the letter, of the regs. If I contract with you to build an airplane
and license it in your name, then sell it to me, you are not building
said plane for your own education and recreation. You are doing it as a
for profit enterprise. You are manufacturing airplanes for sale,
without complying with the regulations governing such operations.
Jeff Point
RV-6 flying
RV-8 preview plans
Milwaukee
Paul Besing wrote:
>
> Perfectly within the regs at that point.
>
>*
>*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2006
From: Craig <craigtxtx(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Drill bits
I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter pin holes
in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough steel! Does anyone have a suggestion
on what kind of drill bits to use here? There has got to be something
tougher than the "titanium" bits I got at Lowes.
Thanks,
Craig Gallenbach
RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2006
From: "Bob J." <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Drill bits
Craig, you're going thru bits because you are work hardening the steel.
Turn the bit slow and put pressure on the drill. Under no circumstance do
you want the drill to spin without a spiral chip coming out of the hole.
Using an air drill is a no-no to drill through any kind of steel unless you
have a teasing trigger and good torque at low speed. Also use some cutting
oil like TapMagic, or a light aerosol oil like 3in1 if you don't have access
to good cutting oil. You should be able to drill hundreds of holes in steel
with one drill bit.
For drilling the cotter pin holes in the axles I recommend you use a long
drill bit and a cordless drill.
FWIW the drill bits you can get at the home improvement places are generally
inferior to HSS drill bits you can pick up at your local machine shop supply
house. Almost always the USA-made bits are superior in quality.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On 10/8/06, Craig wrote:
>
> I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter pin
> holes in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough steel! Does anyone
> have a suggestion on what kind of drill bits to use here? There has got to
> be something tougher than the "titanium" bits I got at Lowes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig Gallenbach
> RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2006
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Drill bits
Craig,
Buy Cobalt drill bits. Make sure they are Made In America. You can
find these at machinist supply stores like MSC or McMaster-Carr. Your
local Snap On, Mac and Matco Tool salesman also stocks them. These
bits will drill through a grade 8 bolt.
Charlie Kuss
>I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter
>pin holes in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough
>steel! Does anyone have a suggestion on what kind of drill bits to
>use here? There has got to be something tougher than the "titanium"
>bits I got at Lowes.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Craig Gallenbach
>RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Burton" <dburton(at)nwlink.com>
Subject: Drill bits
Date: Oct 08, 2006
I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter pin
holes in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough steel! Does anyone
have a suggestion on what kind of drill bits to use here? There has got to
be something tougher than the "titanium" bits I got at Lowes.
Thanks,
Craig Gallenbach
RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
Well, Lowes is not the place to buy drill bits.
High speed steel from a source like the ones Charley suggested will be OK.
Avery or Cleveland also sells good drill bits
I'd also suggest learning how to sharpen a drill bit. It only takes a few
seconds. I'm working out of the same drill bit set I purchased in the late
60s. I admit that I purchase bags of #30 etc because they are cheap and I
want them sharp and true. The smaller the drill bit the more fussy they can
be to sharpen.
It's important to use the correct cutting fluid to drill aluminum or steel.
Obviously we don't use cutting fluid when drilling skins. Thicker parts
require cutting fluid to keep from damaging your bit. The pressure and
temperature the cutting edge of your bit experiences is great. Cutting
fluid and not just any oil you have handy will make a huge difference.
Good luck,
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: Craig <craigtxtx(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Drill bits
Listers,
Thanks for the feedback on drilling hardened steel. Lessons learned:
Use cobalt bits. (actually, I started with them but I thought another type
might work better and resorted to the Lowes "titanium" bits ..... bad choice)
Drill slowly. I was using an air drill and going much too fast.
Lubricate. I was using some of my air tool oil, but this was not very good
at such high drill speeds.
Thanks for your help.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: "Mark Frederick" <f1boss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: paint issues
Piece o cake: take your de-burr tool and clean the paint/primer out of the
dimples before screwing the screws in. Don't remove any material -- just
scrape the paint out. Might need to sharpen your tool 1st...
Carry on!
Mark
From: Robert Dickson <robert@thenews-journal.com>
Subject: RV-List: paint issues
I've got an RV-6A that was painted (for the first time) last
November. I was, and am, pleased with my paint job. Most of the flaws
are due to my errors, not the paint shop.
That said, over the past several months I've had the paint start
making little bubbles in a ring around some of the stainless screw
heads on the fuel tanks and the wing tips. It's obvious that at some
point these bubbles are going to crack and the paint is going to
flake off.
The paint shop said I had a year warranty so I went back to see the
painter this past week. He was really scratching his head over how to
keep this from happening again after he fixes the current problem.
The screws were all hand-tightened after the plane was painted so I'm
pretty sure they weren't over torqued.
I assured the painter, a conscientious young man who has painted many
airplanes, that there are bunches of RVs out there flying around with
unpainted stainless screws holding the tanks and tips on that don't
have my problem. He doesn't seem to doubt me but I don't think he
feels confident that he can apply the paint so it won't happen again.
My opinion is that he just put too much paint on but he doesn't think
so.
So I thought I'd ask the list what your experiences are in this area.
Do you have unpainted stainless screws attaching your tanks and wing
tips? Have you had any problem with bubbles forming around the
screws? Is is just too much paint? Or contamination? I told the
painter I'd ask these questions and report back.
thanks,
Robert Dickson
RV-6A
Carrboro NC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oldsfolks(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2006
Subject: Re: Drill Bits
Craig;
At your NAPA store get "Rapid Tap" cutting fluid. It comes in a small can
like 3 in 1 oil. Get one can for steel and another for aluminum.
The Cobalt drill, low speed and Rapid Tap should get the job done.
For drilling and tapping inside aluminum tube you need the Rapid Tap for
aluminum.
Bob Olds
two time builder RV-4
Charleston,Arkansas
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Drill bits
---- David Burton wrote:
>
>
> I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter pin
> holes in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough steel! Does anyone
> have a suggestion on what kind of drill bits to use here? There has got to
> be something tougher than the "titanium" bits I got at Lowes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig Gallenbach
> RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
>
>
>
> Well, Lowes is not the place to buy drill bits.
>
> High speed steel from a source like the ones Charley suggested will be OK.
> Avery or Cleveland also sells good drill bits
>
> I'd also suggest learning how to sharpen a drill bit. It only takes a few
> seconds. I'm working out of the same drill bit set I purchased in the late
> 60s. I admit that I purchase bags of #30 etc because they are cheap and I
> want them sharp and true. The smaller the drill bit the more fussy they can
> be to sharpen.
>
> It's important to use the correct cutting fluid to drill aluminum or steel.
> Obviously we don't use cutting fluid when drilling skins. Thicker parts
> require cutting fluid to keep from damaging your bit. The pressure and
> temperature the cutting edge of your bit experiences is great. Cutting
> fluid and not just any oil you have handy will make a huge difference.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dave
Craig,
Both Bob J and Dave offer good advice. I also sharpen bits above 3/16" diameter.
Small bits are hard to sharpen (hey, I'm over 50, my eyes aren't the greatest
anymore) small bits. Small #30 and #40 Cobolt bits cost twice what quality
HHS (high speed steel) bits do. However, I find that they last 5 times longer
when drilling 2024-T3 aluminum. Be cheap, buy quality!
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: Drill bits
Date: Oct 09, 2006
The best investment I made was high quality drill bits and a Drill Doctor to
sharpen them.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Drill bits
---- David Burton wrote:
>
>
> I just ran through about a half dozen drill bits drilling the cotter pin
> holes in one wheel axle of my RV8A. That is some tough steel! Does
anyone
> have a suggestion on what kind of drill bits to use here? There has got
to
> be something tougher than the "titanium" bits I got at Lowes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig Gallenbach
> RV8A ...... trying to get it on the gear
>
>
>
> Well, Lowes is not the place to buy drill bits.
>
> High speed steel from a source like the ones Charley suggested will be OK.
> Avery or Cleveland also sells good drill bits
>
> I'd also suggest learning how to sharpen a drill bit. It only takes a few
> seconds. I'm working out of the same drill bit set I purchased in the
late
> 60s. I admit that I purchase bags of #30 etc because they are cheap and I
> want them sharp and true. The smaller the drill bit the more fussy they
can
> be to sharpen.
>
> It's important to use the correct cutting fluid to drill aluminum or
steel.
> Obviously we don't use cutting fluid when drilling skins. Thicker parts
> require cutting fluid to keep from damaging your bit. The pressure and
> temperature the cutting edge of your bit experiences is great. Cutting
> fluid and not just any oil you have handy will make a huge difference.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dave
Craig,
Both Bob J and Dave offer good advice. I also sharpen bits above 3/16"
diameter. Small bits are hard to sharpen (hey, I'm over 50, my eyes aren't
the greatest anymore) small bits. Small #30 and #40 Cobolt bits cost twice
what quality HHS (high speed steel) bits do. However, I find that they last
5 times longer when drilling 2024-T3 aluminum. Be cheap, buy quality!
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Drill bits
---- Craig wrote:
> Listers,
>
> Thanks for the feedback on drilling hardened steel. Lessons learned:
>
>
> Use cobalt bits. (actually, I started with them but I thought another type
might work better and resorted to the Lowes "titanium" bits ..... bad choice)
> Drill slowly. I was using an air drill and going much too fast.
> Lubricate. I was using some of my air tool oil, but this was not very good
at such high drill speeds.
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Craig
Craig,
TIN (titanium) drill bits are only coated with Titanium, so they are not that
great. The purpose of cutting oil is to cool the drill bit, not the lubricate.
Cutting oils generally have a high sulfur content. Air drills are a no no for
drilling steel.
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gordon or marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: RE:
Date: Oct 09, 2006
Listers:
Does anyone on the list know whether or not the magazine "Experimental
Aircraft Technology" is still being published? I received several issues
and did not follow up promptly when they stopped. Recent efforts to contact
them by e-mail and telephone have not been successful. Bret Hahn lives (or
lived) in White Sands, NM and Enchanted Publications was there also. I
found Enchanted in Ruidoso, NM but they don't answer their phone either. I
liked what I saw and would like to see more if that is possible.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: DRDT-2 table pic
Date: Oct 09, 2006
Guys, sorry it took me so long to get you some pictures. It's been
pretty busy on the farm this fall but luckily we're getting a little
moisture tonight so we've got a little bit of a break. Anyway, here's
pictures of the 3 X 5 tables with the DRDT-2 setup I put together. (Not
sure if my tables are acutally 3 X 5 but that shouldn't matter that
much).
Any ????'s just ask.
Bill Britton
If you can, I'd like some pictures, too. Thanks.
John Jessen (with an unused DRDT-2 and a couple tables that might work.)
#40328
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Tami
Britton
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: DRDT-2 Table
-->
Les, I've got 2 of the 3' X 5' tables also. Due to lack of space in my
garage for another table that will be used minimally, I just slid the
two
tables together end to end and screwed the DRDT-2 to a 2 X 6, then I
screwed
the 2 X 6 on to the legs of each table (so the dimpling sets were flush
with
the table top). Now, when I don't need it (the DRDT-2) I can either
unscrew
the dimpler form the board and leave the board on the tables (leaves me
a
gap between tables about 6-8 inches wide) or remove the board
completely. I
know that every time I need to do some dimpling I have to mess with
screwing
either the whole setup back on or atleast the dimpler back on. But, for
no
more often than you really use the dimpler it's not that big of a deal,
especially if you've got a cordless drill.
CLEAR AS MUD, right???
If you would like to see some pictures let me know.
Bill Britton
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: static port line
I am installing my static port line (RV-6A), following van's
instructions. I need some way of keeping the poly tube up under the top
longeron as it goes forward from the F-607 bulkhead where it
originates. Just a couple of support points are needed back there.
The only thing I can think of is to drill a #40 hole (maybe a tad
larger) at 2 points in the longeron and run a tie wrap through it. Does
any one have a better suggestion?
Tom Sargent, RV-6A.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2006
From: Steve Allison <stevea(at)svpal.org>
Subject: Re: static port line
sarg314 wrote:
> I am installing my static port line (RV-6A), following van's
> instructions. I need some way of keeping the poly tube up under the
> top longeron as it goes forward from the F-607 bulkhead where it
> originates. Just a couple of support points are needed back there.
>
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A.
Use some adhesive backed cable tie mounts or adhesive backed cable
clips. Examples shown here: http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/800.pdf
If/when the adhesive dries out and and fails, nothing particularly bad
happens. The static line will droop down below the canopy
deck/longeron. Throw the old ones away, stick some new ones in place,
re-secure the static line, and go fly.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Parker Thomas" <me(at)parkerthomas.com>
Subject: engraved instrument panels
Date: Oct 10, 2006
Might anyone know where I can get some labels made for my instrument panel?
I'd like them engraved or printed. I can't find anything on the web.
Thanks,
Parker
RV-6A 421PT
____________________________________
F. Parker Thomas
phone 510-393-9876
fax 801-382-1974
me(at)parkerthomas.com
skype - parker.thomas
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: engraved instrument panels
Date: Oct 10, 2006
www.engravers.net
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Parker Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:25 AM
Subject: RV-List: engraved instrument panels
Might anyone know where I can get some labels made for my instrument panel?
I'd like them engraved or printed. I can't find anything on the web.
Thanks,
Parker
RV-6A 421PT
____________________________________
F. Parker Thomas
phone 510-393-9876
fax 801-382-1974
me(at)parkerthomas.com
skype - parker.thomas
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: static port line
From: Doug Gray <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Oct 11, 2006
> I am installing my static port line (RV-6A), following van's
> instructions. I need some way of keeping the poly tube up under the top
> longeron as it goes forward from the F-607 bulkhead where it
> originates. Just a couple of support points are needed back there.
Tom,
My solution is to make a p-clip from 0.016" x 1/2" strip. Attach to the
backside of a AN426-3 rivet that fixes the turtle deck skin to the
longeron.
Doug Gray
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernie & Margo" <ekells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: engraved instrument panels
Date: Oct 10, 2006
Parker: I used Aircraft Engravers of Grandby, CT. See
engravers.net/aircraft
Excellent quality and service. Very durable. I got about 40 or so words of
various sizes, groupings and orientation. Every label was usable (I had a
few sketches)..
All inclusive, including shipping, taxes, was $34.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Parker Thomas" <me(at)parkerthomas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:25 AM
Subject: RV-List: engraved instrument panels
>
> Might anyone know where I can get some labels made for my instrument
> panel? > I'd like them engraved or printed. I can't find anything on the
> web.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Parker
> RV-6A 421PT
>
> ____________________________________
> F. Parker Thomas
> phone 510-393-9876
> fax 801-382-1974
> me(at)parkerthomas.com
> skype - parker.thomas
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: yet another rivet question
From: "smittysrv" <smitty(at)smittysrv.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2006
I have found that if I hold the backrivet tool perfectly perpendicular to the surface,
the rivets come out looking like crap and look pushed over. I soon learned
to lean the backrivet attachment towards the upward angle side of the back
stiffener to make the back rivets come out perfect. That don't make no sense,
I know, but it works. Here's my entry on my website about it (about 5 pictures
down):
--------
Smittys RV-9A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66941#66941
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: George Inman 204 287 8334 <ghinman(at)mts.net>
Subject: static port line
I used these cable tie mounts,however I did not trust
the adhesive.Instead I scraped it off and used goop
glue instead.It will last longer.
sarg314 wrote:
> > I am installing my static port line (RV-6A), following van's
> > instructions. I need some way of keeping the poly tube up under the
> > top longeron as it goes forward from the F-607 bulkhead where it
> > originates. Just a couple of support points are needed back there.
> >
> > Tom Sargent, RV-6A.
>
Use some adhesive backed cable tie mounts or adhesive backed cable
clips. Examples shown here: http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/800.pdf
--
George H. Inman
ghinman(at)mts.net
RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
Date: Oct 10, 2006
Hi Listers
I now have about 12 hours on my Aero Sport engine and starting to think
about leaning it. (The instructions indicate to run it rich) My fuel flow
shows about 14 GPH with it full rich at 8500 feet. When I lean it I have to
pull the mixture back about 3/4 of the way to get it down to 10 GPH. This
seems excessive to me. I did not lean to a stumble at this point. Also, my
VM-1000 has a leaning process but I don't understand it yet. Plus I have a
cylinder #3 that is running about 425 that concerns me.
Is it possible the carburetor needs to be altered or adjusted somehow?
Thanks
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: static port line
Date: Oct 10, 2006
Or just use little gobs of RTV. "Embed" the tubing in the RTV and it's
there for the duration, and it has built in anti-chafe. RTV will hold the
tubing securely anywhere you need it. Ever need to replace the tubing...you
can easily slice the RTV with a razor blade, and then just re-RTV the new
tubing in place.
No need for any fancy hardware here! This is an area you'll never see.
FWIW, I used adhesive tie wrap mounts and some did pop off as predicted.
RTV now.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1092 hours)
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Gray" <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: static port line
>
>
>> I am installing my static port line (RV-6A), following van's
>> instructions. I need some way of keeping the poly tube up under the top
>> longeron as it goes forward from the F-607 bulkhead where it
>> originates. Just a couple of support points are needed back there.
> Tom,
> My solution is to make a p-clip from 0.016" x 1/2" strip. Attach to the
> backside of a AN426-3 rivet that fixes the turtle deck skin to the
> longeron.
> Doug Gray
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Mixture & fuel flow
>I now have about 12 hours on my Aero Sport engine and starting to think
>about leaning it. (The instructions indicate to run it rich) My fuel flow
>shows about 14 GPH with it full rich at 8500 feet. When I lean it I have to
>pull the mixture back about 3/4 of the way to get it down to 10 GPH. This
>seems excessive to me. I did not lean to a stumble at this point. Also, my
>VM-1000 has a leaning process but I don't understand it yet. Plus I have a
>cylinder #3 that is running about 425 that concerns me.
I can't tell if anything you mentioned suggest the need for adjustments of
the carb or your cooling system but 14 GPH at 8500' is too rich. I don't
spend
much time that low (8500') but 10 GPH there may be ok. I usually lean to
stumble then enrichen until smooth...and sometimes one more mixture notch.
Are you saying that pulling the mixture out 3/4 of the way is excessive or
10GPH is excessive? Have you checked the flow after leaning to engine
stumble/running rough then mixture in until smooth?
At my flight altitudes (above 11,500') I am 7.5 GPH or less.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
Date: Oct 10, 2006
Hi Ron,
My thought is that pulling the mixture 3/4 of the way just to get from 14
down to 10 is a lot. I will try to lean till it stumbles next time, but am
cautious of getting to lean while the engine is new.
Really the question might be is 14 pretty high for full rich mixture at that
altitude? On the ground it shows nearly 17 GPH full rich. (3200' field) I
would like to see closer to 8 GPH when leaned. (0-360-A1A)
I suppose my fuel flow meter could be off.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:04 AM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Mixture & fuel flow
>
>
>
> >I now have about 12 hours on my Aero Sport engine and starting to think
> >about leaning it. (The instructions indicate to run it rich) My fuel
> flow
> >shows about 14 GPH with it full rich at 8500 feet. When I lean it I have
> to
> >pull the mixture back about 3/4 of the way to get it down to 10 GPH.
> This
> >seems excessive to me. I did not lean to a stumble at this point. Also,
> my
> >VM-1000 has a leaning process but I don't understand it yet. Plus I have
> a
> >cylinder #3 that is running about 425 that concerns me.
>
> I can't tell if anything you mentioned suggest the need for adjustments of
> the carb or your cooling system but 14 GPH at 8500' is too rich. I don't
> spend
> much time that low (8500') but 10 GPH there may be ok. I usually lean to
> stumble then enrichen until smooth...and sometimes one more mixture notch.
>
> Are you saying that pulling the mixture out 3/4 of the way is excessive or
> 10GPH is excessive? Have you checked the flow after leaning to engine
> stumble/running rough then mixture in until smooth?
>
> At my flight altitudes (above 11,500') I am 7.5 GPH or less.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
>My thought is that pulling the mixture 3/4 of the way just to get from 14
>down to 10 is a lot. I will try to lean till it stumbles next time, but am
>cautious of getting to lean while the engine is new.
I start my engine with the mixture 1/2 way out from full rich then soon
leaner about 1/4" for taxi. Verify correct mixture at run-up (field elevation
6800')
>Really the question might be is 14 pretty high for full rich mixture at that
>altitude? On the ground it shows nearly 17 GPH full rich. (3200' field) I
>would like to see closer to 8 GPH when leaned. (0-360-A1A)
Why would you be full rich at 8500'? A better question would be what do
others get when leaned properly including CHT and maybe EGT.
>I suppose my fuel flow meter could be off.
If it can be calibrated then that is possible. Have you verified fuel
remaining
per your instrumentation versus actual. If those are off then the number of
pulses per unit fuel needs to be adjusted. That will affect your fuel flow.
Obviously follow engine maker instructions for break-in and call them if you
have questions about limits of EGT, CHT, etc
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: acceptable defects on universal head rivets??
Just saw this on another list:
Per MIL-STD-403C (the revision level of the paper copy [he has]) para
5.2.7.5:
"Marring of the manufactured head. A cut or ring caused by the riveting
equipment shall be acceptable on non-flush rivets providing the depth of
the cut is not greater than one-fourth of the head height. Cut or ringed
flush rivets shall not be acceptable."
Anybody who's familiar with either mil-spec standards or FAA 'best practices' that
knows whether this is valid? I'm not advocating sloppy work, but I can remember
drilling out a few 1/8" rivets due to minor errors with the universal set
& making a bigger problem when I did it. If the quote above is accurate, I'd
bet there are quite a few projects out there that would be better off carrying
around a few 'smiles'.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
>Really the question might be is 14 pretty high for full rich mixture at that
>altitude? On the ground it shows nearly 17 GPH full rich. (3200' field) I
>would like to see closer to 8 GPH when leaned. (0-360-A1A)
I was near sea level last week and the highest I saw during climb was in
the 12-14 GPH range. May have been 12 or 13. Just don't recall.
O-360, FP
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
From: sarg314(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: engraved instrument panels
Date: Oct 10, 2006
An interesting labeling method: I work at an observatory which is always making
electronic things with aluminum panels. We anodize the panels a dark color
- blue or black - and take them to a local trophy shop which uses a laser etching
device to label it. The very narrow beam of the laser explodes the dark anodize
(it has to be dark to absorb the light) off the surface exposing the bare
aluminum underneath. Looks terrific, really bright. VERY permanent and not
very expensive.
I did this with my panel. I'll post an image when I get it back later this week.
Traditionally anodize will fade in sunlight. However, new "architectural
dyes" are much more resistant to fading. I also suspect that the plexi canopy
would block much of the short (UV) wavelengths that do the dirty work. My plane
will be hangared, so I think the sun fading issue will be minimized, anyway.
We'll see.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Parker Thomas" <me(at)parkerthomas.com>
>
> Might anyone know where I can get some labels made for my instrument panel?
> I'd like them engraved or printed. I can't find anything on the web.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Parker
> RV-6A 421PT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: engraved instrument panels
Date: Oct 10, 2006
I second this. I have had them do labels for my planes and I also get all
of our labels for ships consoles at work from them. Great service, good
prices, and good people to deal with. I suggest getting your labels in the
reverse engraved .020" lexan. This is a matt clear material that is
engraved and paint filled from the back side so the letters are protected
and the front is smooth. They are thinner than you can get from other
engravers so they look better and the matt material does not have as much
glare and does not show scratches easily. They can also engrave and paint
fill in several steps to give you different colors of leters on the labels.
I very highly recommend them.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ernie & Margo
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: engraved instrument panels
Parker: I used Aircraft Engravers of Grandby, CT. See
engravers.net/aircraft
Excellent quality and service. Very durable. I got about 40 or so words of
various sizes, groupings and orientation. Every label was usable (I had a
few sketches)..
All inclusive, including shipping, taxes, was $34.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Parker Thomas" <me(at)parkerthomas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:25 AM
Subject: RV-List: engraved instrument panels
>
> Might anyone know where I can get some labels made for my instrument
> panel? > I'd like them engraved or printed. I can't find anything on the
> web.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Parker
> RV-6A 421PT
>
> ____________________________________
> F. Parker Thomas
> phone 510-393-9876
> fax 801-382-1974
> me(at)parkerthomas.com
> skype - parker.thomas
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2006
From: "D.Bristol" <dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Mixture & fuel flow
Tim,
The hot #3 cylinder can usually be cured by making sure that the rear
baffle is spaced about 1/8" from the rear of the cylinder. If the baffle
is too tight, there isn't enough airflow around the rear of the cylinder.
Dave
Tim Bryan wrote:
>
>
>Hi Listers
>
>I now have about 12 hours on my Aero Sport engine and starting to think
>about leaning it. (The instructions indicate to run it rich) My fuel flow
>shows about 14 GPH with it full rich at 8500 feet. When I lean it I have to
>pull the mixture back about 3/4 of the way to get it down to 10 GPH. This
>seems excessive to me. I did not lean to a stumble at this point. Also, my
>VM-1000 has a leaning process but I don't understand it yet. Plus I have a
>cylinder #3 that is running about 425 that concerns me.
>
>Is it possible the carburetor needs to be altered or adjusted somehow?
>
>Thanks
>Tim
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
Date: Oct 11, 2006
There should be something in the archives about fuel flow reading higher
with the boost pump on. I see 17 GPH fuel flow full power takeoff with the
boost pump on near sea level.
The mixture control on my carb come out very far in normal cruise at any
altitude. It is at least 1/2 way or more out at most cruise altitudes.
It will take many tanks of gas to get the fuel flow constant adjusted to a
value you like. Early on numbers and not very meaningful.
The fuel transducer is 2.5% accurate. You should be able to adjust the
constant it uses to get that close at ONE and only one power setting.
I record all fuel used in my airplane in a spreadsheet and reset the fuel
totalizer every fill. I only check the constant once a year now and it sits
right at 3.5% more fuel used than what I purchase over the course of a year.
Yes I could adjust it more to get closer but I like the idea of having
more fuel than what my instruments tell me.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,956 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Mixture & fuel flow
Date: Oct 11, 2006
I suggest you read the three excellent articles on the left side of this
web page:
http://www.advancedpilot.com/assist.html
These will give you lots of good information about leaning (and properly
operating) your engine. These techniques work best with fuel injected
engines, but are also applicable to carbureted engines.
Ronnie Brown
N713MR - Velocity Elite RG
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 11, 2006
Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure
In a message dated 10/7/2006 1:25:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net writes:
When you talk about filtering both wings....do you mean separately? As
in,...two filters? As you may know the AF doesn't do that either.
I'm also still kickng around whether I should put a Gasoclator on my RV.
Some people say you don't need one with an AF pump, others say "why not?"
And for those with the AF pump, how do you service that filter without
having fuel spilling all over the the floor and carpet.
Bob
=================================
Bob:
YES - Filtering is done on both wings right in the cabin BEFORE it gets to
the fuel selector or the fuel pump. I used LARGE clear plastic auto motive
type. Make sure you install it in the correct direction and CAREFULLY take a
Xacto Knife and remove and flashing around the in & out fittings. ALSO - Make
sure you de-burr the ID of the cut fuel lines. You don't want to reduce the flow
due to the rolled in burr from cutting the lines.
I am one of those that do not believe in the Gascolator ... I do believe in a
LOW POINT collection point and drain. I have seen two problems with the
Gascolator, one is brand related in that it would NOT open and takes quite a bit
of twisting force on the firewall; the brand is the ANDAIR.
The other problem I have seen is when the cowl was installed ... The hole in
the cowl did not match to the Gascolator and since it did not the drain/purge
function of the Gascolator was lost.
Pump servicing - Best would be to move the pump to the forward side of the
firewall. Other than that ... towels.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 11, 2006
Subject: Re: Mixture & fuel flow
Any ideas for a hot #4 cyl?
Thanks,
D. Preston
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cleaveland Aircraft Tool" <mail(at)cleavelandtool.com>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 11, 2006
On this subject has anyone found a good "no headband" headset for the RVs?
I don't have much headroom in the RV4 so I bought a Panther headset that
uses custom earmolds. The headset fits perfect and is Sooo comfortable, on
the ground it works great, but above 1500rpm and the mic feeds all the noise
to the intercom and radio. The earmolds block out as much noise as our
Telex ANR and Bose ANR, but since the mic is useless I need another
solution. I have been fighting with it since May and just today sent it
back again this time with a recording of different headsets vs. theirs. I
expect I will be getting a refund and will try something else. I was
impressed with the ClarityAloft headset at Oshkosh, but it was not in an
aircraft. I would have been impressed with the Panther on the ground. Any
advise would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Lauritsen
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
mike(at)cleavelandtool.com
www.cleavelandtool.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Heatset woes
>
>
>>Verify that your headset jacks are proper for the headset. Are there
>
> three prongs to match the three sections of a stereo headset. Not sure
> how this works but worth checking.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2006
From: Chris W <3edcft6(at)cox.net>
Subject: Looking for a Ride or even just a chance to sit in a -8
A friend of mine who currently owns a J3 Cub wants to build either an
RV-7 or -8. He has flown in a -6 so has a fair understanding of what
the-7 is like, but would like to try on the -8 for size. We both live
in the Oklahoma City area. He would be happy to take anyone for a ride
in his Cub (as if an RV driver would want to ride in a Cub :)
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2006
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a Ride or even just a chance to sit in a -8
Chris W wrote:
He would be happy to take anyone for a ride
> in his Cub (as if an RV driver would want to ride in a Cub :)
I have about 300 hrs of J-3 time, and if someone asks which are my
favorite hours in the air, the J-3 or the RV-6, I would be hard pressed
to make a decision.
Ain't nothin' like a Cub down low on a late summer evening......
http://thervjournal.com/beat.html
http://thervjournal.com/cub.html
Sam Buchanan (hopefully with another Cub in my future at some point....)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2006
From: "Todd Bartrim" <bartrim(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
I'm really happy with my Aurricom set. The only complaint I can think of is
that during the test phase (experimental engine... little bit of tweaking) I
was in & out often and hands would get a little dirty and soon you would
have an ear piece that you really didn't want to put back in your ear.
Fortunatly they come with spare foam ear-pieces. Custom earmolds are also an
option, but I've not found that I needed them. I must admit that I was a new
pilot at the time, so didn't have any bias toward conventional headsets as
I'd only had a few hours using them.
Todd Bartrim
C-FSTB
Turbo13B RV9
On 10/11/06, Cleaveland Aircraft Tool wrote:
>
> mail(at)cleavelandtool.com>
>
> On this subject has anyone found a good "no headband" headset for the RVs?
> I don't have much headroom in the RV4 so I bought a Panther headset that
> uses custom earmolds. The headset fits perfect and is Sooo comfortable,
> on
> the ground it works great, but above 1500rpm and the mic feeds all the
> noise
> to the intercom and radio. The earmolds block out as much noise as our
> Telex ANR and Bose ANR, but since the mic is useless I need another
> solution. I have been fighting with it since May and just today sent it
> back again this time with a recording of different headsets vs. theirs. I
> expect I will be getting a refund and will try something else. I was
> impressed with the ClarityAloft headset at Oshkosh, but it was not in an
> aircraft. I would have been impressed with the Panther on the
> ground. Any
> advise would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> Mike Lauritsen
> Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
> mike(at)cleavelandtool.com
> www.cleavelandtool.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:26 AM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Heatset woes
>
>
> >
> >
> >>Verify that your headset jacks are proper for the headset. Are there
> >
> > three prongs to match the three sections of a stereo headset. Not sure
> > how this works but worth checking.
> >
> > Ron Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 11, 2006
I like my Clarity, takes more time to get on and sometimes bothers my ears.
Pressure changes from altitude can also be a slight anoyance. The mic and
sound quality are the best I've ever seen. My Bose X is easier to put on
and about the same noise cancelling but heavier and messes up the little bit
of hair that I have. Both have their + & - and either make a great choice.
John
2 RV6A
RV7 in process
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hans Conser <hansconser(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 11, 2006
On Oct 11, 2006, at 6:03 PM, John Furey wrote:
> I like my Clarity, takes more time to get on and sometimes bothers my
> ears. Pressure changes from altitude-can also be a slight anoyance.
> The mic-and sound quality are the best I've ever seen. -My Bose X
is
> easier to put on and about the same noise cancelling but heavier and
> messes up the little bit of hair that I have. Both have their + & -
> and either make a great choice.
>
I bought a $700 pair of Telex's the Stratus 50D's, they had a hiss.
Sent those back got the Bose, which are pretty good, but don't have
enough passive attentuation in my opinion, they let more high
frequencies through than they should.
Hans
RV Dreaming
________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Subject: Aileron Brackets
Hi all,
I assembled my aileron brackets today and commenced riveting them on the
rear spar. I found that I couldn't get my squeezer to reach the most forward
rivet (near the already riveted on top skin). I couldn't figure out how to
buck it effectively, so I decided to put a cherrymax rivet in. It seems quite
solid. Have not done the other wing yet. Does that seem sound or should I
drill it out and think some more?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Subject: Aileron Brackets
Hi all,
I assembled my aileron brackets today and commenced riveting them on the
rear spar. I found that I couldn't get my squeezer to reach the most forward
rivet (near the already riveted on top skin). I couldn't figure out how to
buck it effectively, so I decided to put a cherrymax rivet in. It seems quite
solid. Have not done the other wing yet. Does that seem sound or should I
drill it out and think some more?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 11, 2006
Has anyone an opinion about the new X11 Headset that David Clark now
offers?
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Conser
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Heatset woes
On Oct 11, 2006, at 6:03 PM, John Furey wrote:
I like my Clarity, takes more time to get on and sometimes bothers
my ears. Pressure changes from altitude can also be a slight anoyance.
The mic and sound quality are the best I've ever seen. My Bose X is
easier to put on and about the same noise cancelling but heavier and
messes up the little bit of hair that I have. Both have their + & - and
either make a great choice.
I bought a $700 pair of Telex's the Stratus 50D's, they had a hiss.
Sent those back got the Bose, which are pretty good, but don't have
enough passive attentuation in my opinion, they let more high
frequencies through than they should.
Hans
RV Dreaming
--> http://forums.matronics.com
http://wiki.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Throttle cable length
Date: Oct 12, 2006
From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCPower.com>
I'm installing an O-360-A1A engine converted over to an IO-360-A1A
using a Precision Fuel body, on an RV-7A. It looks like I can use the
standard FAB airbox and a lot of the other Fire Wall Forward components
(Van's service dept says that I'll need to swap out the VA-149 for the
VA-182 and delete the Gascolator.) They also indicated that a longer
mixture cable may also be needed, but no one with the Fuel Injected 360
had confirmed this for them, so they weren't sure.
Can anyone out there that has installed the IO-360-A1A (vertical sump)
engine comment on the final throttle and mixture cable part numbers (&
lengths) ???? Even an IO-320-D1A installation should have the same
cables.......
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Heatset woes
Date: Oct 12, 2006
I chose Peltor because of the thin headband top. I have been
satisfied with it.
Denis Walsh
On Oct 11, 2006, at 07:27 5207400010, Cleaveland Aircraft Tool wrote:
>
>
> On this subject has anyone found a good "no headband" headset for
> the RVs? I don't have much headroom in the RV4 so I bought a
> Panther headset that uses custom earmolds. The headset fits
> perfect and is Sooo comfortable, on the ground it works great, but
> above 1500rpm and the mic feeds all the noise to the intercom and
> radio. The earmolds block out as much noise as our Telex ANR and
> Bose ANR, but since the mic is useless I need another solution. I
> have been fighting with it since May and just today sent it back
> again this time with a recording of different headsets vs. theirs.
> I expect I will be getting a refund and will try something else. I
> was impressed with the ClarityAloft headset at Oshkosh, but it was
> not in an aircraft. I would have been impressed with the Panther
> on the ground. Any advise would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> Mike Lauritsen
> Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
> mike(at)cleavelandtool.com
> www.cleavelandtool.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:26 AM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Heatset woes
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Verify that your headset jacks are proper for the headset. Are
>>> there
>>
>> three prongs to match the three sections of a stereo headset. Not
>> sure
>> how this works but worth checking.
>>
>> Ron Lee
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Brackets
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Seems Sound
Denis Walsh
On Oct 11, 2006, at 07:04 7949500010, MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I assembled my aileron brackets today and commenced riveting them
> on the rear spar. I found that I couldn't get my squeezer to reach
> the most forward rivet (near the already riveted on top skin). I
> couldn't figure out how to buck it effectively, so I decided to put
> a cherrymax rivet in. It seems quite solid. Have not done the
> other wing yet. Does that seem sound or should I drill it out and
> think some more?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Wynn
> RV-8, Wings
> San Ramon, California
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: throttle cable length
From: Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com
Date: Oct 12, 2006
I have an IO-360B1B (vertical induction) with an Airflow Performance fuel
injection. I had to replace my mixture cable from Vans with a longer one -
around 4 inches longer if I remember right, but im not absolutely sure on
that figure. I guess this may not be of much value since you have the
Precision system, but if you order the cable several inches longer than the
minimum length needed, its still very usable. Too short doesnt work at
all.
regards
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernie & Margo" <ekells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Listers: I am finishing up my RV-9A outstanding tasks - which take
forever.
I'm looking for a better way to seal the Flap Actuator push rod hole in
the baggage compartment. There is a small gap in the hole affecting the
fuselage side and the baggage area interface - the space is needed for
the rod to move the flap. Not large but will let in any slush that the
wheels kick up. A boot won't work very well. I was going to make a
plate with several platenuts holding two pieces of Van's engine baffle
material - with a slit for the connector rod and rod end bearings.
There's got to be a simpler, less time-consuming way to seal off this
hole. What have others done in this tight area. Thanks for any ideas.
Ernie (99.5% done - only 20% to go)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com>
Subject: RE: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Funny.. was just thinking about this very thing now that we are approaching
winter and I'm attempting to draft proof the RV. (Wife complained last
winter the heat doesn't work good enough.)
My thought was to take some baffle material as you suggested, cut out an
appropriate sized hole with a slit somewhere to slip it over the flap tube
and then just glue it or pop rivet it in place. Let me know if you come up
with a better idea.
Matthew
N523RV :: RV-9A :: 129 hours
http://www.n523rv.com Date: Oct 12, 2006
From: <ziggyrocket(at)cox.net>
Subject: O320-E2A for sale
I just got the word that my new Aerosport O320 is ready to ship, but I need to sell my other O320, details at: http://members.cox.net/ziggyrocket/
RV9A 90% done, 100% to go.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Most RV's don't do anything. Several have made wing root fairings that
extend over the flap and cover the hole from above-mainly for
appearance.
Fortunately, not much slush here in Yuma, even in the dead of winter.
Haven't had any sand get in though.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A N872RV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernie & Margo
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:42 AM
Subject: RV-List: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
Listers: I am finishing up my RV-9A outstanding tasks - which take
forever.
I'm looking for a better way to seal the Flap Actuator push rod hole in
the
baggage compartment. There is a small gap in the hole affecting the
fuselage side and the baggage area interface - the space is needed for
the
rod to move the flap. Not large but will let in any slush that the
wheels
kick up. A boot won't work very well. I was going to make a plate with
several platenuts holding two pieces of Van's engine baffle material -
with
a slit for the connector rod and rod end bearings.
There's got to be a simpler, less time-consuming way to seal off this
hole.
What have others done in this tight area. Thanks for any ideas.
Ernie (99.5% done - only 20% to go)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Subject: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Matt,
I haven't gotten that far but a "bellows" arrangement would be
better in making up for vertical and horizontal motion of the flap
actuator rod as it goes thru the fuselage. Even if it was not a bellows
a long very thin rubber sleeve would work for air infiltration. I got
something like that from "Orvendorfer" (sp) for controlling air coming
into the fuselage below the floor and under your seat. A nylon fabric
that will not let air thru works. You get the idea.
Jim
RV9-A FWF
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cirrus - OT
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me that
low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend a LOT
of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly this thing
safely."
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67390#67390
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2006
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cirrus - OT
I think that this is what we should derive.......
I have had transition training - and time before and after....and I know I'm not
ready yet.....I'm glad that I have some time to get ready while I'm finishing
my plane
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
>Sent: Oct 12, 2006 3:18 PM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Cirrus - OT
>
>
>Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me that
low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend a LOT
of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
>
>Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly this thing
safely."
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67390#67390
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
Subject: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
Date: Oct 12, 2006
On Thu Oct 12 15:18:35 2006, Bob Collins wrote :
>Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me
>that low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend
>a LOT of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
>
>Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly this
>thing safely."
Interesting that you make this comment when you do. I have been pondering that
very same issue lately. Similar thoughts (i.e. regarding the "ticket-in-Feb,
Cirrus-in-July, dead-in-Oct" sequence of events) occurred to me about the NYC
accident too.
Regarding your particular point, we'll use my situation as an example. I am
a low-time pilot. I have roughly 350 hours spread over a decade-plus. I have
owned a plane (1967 Cherokee 180, and boy I miss it), gotten my instrument
ticket, and have maybe 8 hours of tailwheel time spread over a few -years-.
The tailwheel plans that I've flown are an RV-6 and a Citabria (by flown I
don't mean just having gotten a ride in, but have done take-offs and landings
with instructors).
I'm a slow builder, so still have time to think about what to do, but I do
get my engine in about a month and a half and think it is remotely possible
I could have the RV-7 flying in as little as a year. (Imagine me crossing
my fingers as I type that sentence ... not an easy thing to do, I'll tell
you.) Two years max. (More crossing of fingers!)
When I go talk to various local folks the response is "Don't sweat it, you'll
do fine". Ok. Great. But ..... I'm left not entirely convinced. I have this
vague worry that what I _should_ do is go out and buy me something along the
lines of a Luscombe 8A for $20K, commit to putting 50 hours/year on it while
I finish the RV, and -then- do the required type-specific RV transition
training with Mike Seager. When I've got the RV flying, sell the Luscombe
(for a tidy profit ... yeah, right) and start my flight testing.
You see, I want to be SURE that I can safely fly my RV once I finish it .....
but when I talk to other folks I start to feel like a paranoid, and that my
concerns are leading me in the direction of overkill. What say you experienced
folks? Am I being overly cautious?
What I do know is that if I bend this RV after all my _wife's_ help riveting,
I'll be in deep deep trouble. :)
-- Dwight
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cirrus - OT
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 12, 2006
I read the list ont he WEb site and the post is pretty much indeciperhable, but
if you're rebutting some point that I made about a plane being at fault, well,
I certainly never said that. The words speak for themselves, hopefully. We
have a role as pilots to educate the uninformed. Well, if we really give a rip.
[Wink]
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67415#67415
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2006
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
Dwight:
I recommend getting transition training in an RV and then getting some
aerobatic instruction in your RV. Once you are comfortable doing sport
aerobatics in your RV you won't be defeated by anything you're likely to meet
in "normal" RV flying.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hedrick" <khedrick(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
Date: Oct 12, 2006
How about a word from the unexperienced. I am a low time pilot with 400 hrs
now but when I bought my rv 6 I had a total ~125 hrs in - a 150, a 172, and
an eipper quicksilver wt shift. This was over a 20 yr period. No
tailwheel time, my cfi (Illinois Phil) really stayed with me (a long time)
and some buddies did give me some tailwheel time in their champs (big help,
thanks john and bob C).
I don't claim to be an expert, far from it, I am a average learner. I did
work (lot of hrs) at getting the landing down and systems and I was cautious
(still am), no big crosswinds. You can do this. The extra talewheel time
was good.
Your milage may vary, but have bent no metal yet.
Keith Hedrick
Carlinville IL
3lf
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: RV-List: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
On Thu Oct 12 15:18:35 2006, Bob Collins wrote :
>Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me
>that low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend
>a LOT of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
>
>Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly
this
>thing safely."
Interesting that you make this comment when you do. I have been pondering
that
very same issue lately. Similar thoughts (i.e. regarding the "ticket-in-Feb,
Cirrus-in-July, dead-in-Oct" sequence of events) occurred to me about the
NYC
accident too.
Regarding your particular point, we'll use my situation as an example. I am
a low-time pilot. I have roughly 350 hours spread over a decade-plus. I have
owned a plane (1967 Cherokee 180, and boy I miss it), gotten my instrument
ticket, and have maybe 8 hours of tailwheel time spread over a few -years-.
The tailwheel plans that I've flown are an RV-6 and a Citabria (by flown I
don't mean just having gotten a ride in, but have done take-offs and
landings
with instructors).
I'm a slow builder, so still have time to think about what to do, but I do
get my engine in about a month and a half and think it is remotely possible
I could have the RV-7 flying in as little as a year. (Imagine me crossing
my fingers as I type that sentence ... not an easy thing to do, I'll tell
you.) Two years max. (More crossing of fingers!)
When I go talk to various local folks the response is "Don't sweat it,
you'll
do fine". Ok. Great. But ..... I'm left not entirely convinced. I have this
vague worry that what I _should_ do is go out and buy me something along the
lines of a Luscombe 8A for $20K, commit to putting 50 hours/year on it while
I finish the RV, and -then- do the required type-specific RV transition
training with Mike Seager. When I've got the RV flying, sell the Luscombe
(for a tidy profit ... yeah, right) and start my flight testing.
You see, I want to be SURE that I can safely fly my RV once I finish it
.....
but when I talk to other folks I start to feel like a paranoid, and that my
concerns are leading me in the direction of overkill. What say you
experienced
folks? Am I being overly cautious?
What I do know is that if I bend this RV after all my _wife's_ help
riveting,
I'll be in deep deep trouble. :)
-- Dwight
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
Subject: Re: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
Date: Oct 12, 2006
On Thu Oct 12 19:21:02 2006, Tedd McHenry wrote :
>Dwight:
>
>I recommend getting transition training in an RV and then getting some
>aerobatic instruction in your RV. Once you are comfortable doing sport
>aerobatics in your RV you won't be defeated by anything you're likely to meet
>in "normal" RV flying.
>
>Tedd McHenry
>Surrey, BC, Canada
Tedd,
Thanks for the input! I couldn't agree more. In fact ... those steps are on
the agenda. :) I have a good friend who is now an RV-7 owner, and who sold
an Extra 300XL and bought the RV. He is in his mid-70s and decided he probably
shouldn't be pulling 5Gs on -every- flight. His wife didn't like flying in
that front cockpit either (I've flown in it, and don't blame her), so the -7
let them fly "together" again.
He has competition experience and is willing to teach me some basics ... and
then from there I intend to find someone to help me learn more advanced
aerobatics. For instance, I've flown with Rich Perkins at Attitude Aviation
(http://attitudeaviation.com) in Livermore. I was just doing some initial
tailwheel work, but he also teaches aerobatics as well as an emergency
maneuvers course. I'm tempted to go back and work with him again as the few
flights I did have with him were great experiences. But there are plenty of
other folks who can help me down that road and we'll see what make sense when
the time comes.
So ... we agree completely on that value of that kind of training. No question
about it. Oh, aside from the value of it ... its fun, too!
Learning some aerobatics, though, are past that initial getting-to-know-you
period. It is those early hours in the -7 I sweat most. I have gotten a good
bit of a feedback off-list saying "Don't sweat it", with some good support
for that view. I'm still collecting opinions, and probably will be until the
first flight in my RV. If anyone else has opinions/suggestions on good
strategies for transitioning .... I'm listening. :)
-- Dwight
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 12, 2006
Subject: Re: RE: Closing gap in Flap Actuator to Fuselage interface
In a message dated 10/12/06 1:27:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
matthew(at)n523rv.com writes:
> My thought was to take some baffle material as you suggested, cut out an
> appropriate sized hole with a slit somewhere to slip it over the flap tube
> and then just glue it or pop rivet it in place. Let me know if you come up
> with a better idea.
>
>
> Matthew
=====================
Matt:
After spending two years asking question, plugging holes and making diverters
in the hopes of curing the CO problem that many if not al lRV-6's have ... I
have finally come up with a solution. It works and it is cheep, yet I have
not solved the UGLY part of the problem.
The solution was two curved down exhaust pipes from a local auto shop. They
are held on with 'U' Clamps and a hunk of safety wire. The only good thing I
can say about this is there is ZERO CO in the cabin.
I have tried making bellow boots to cover the flap rod, adding a rear facing
scupper scoop back by the tail, all sorts of diverters in different positions
and sizes, extra cowl flaps, the hole punched exhaust tips, lowering and
raising the exhaust pipes. NOTHING worked. Except the two curved down exhaust
pipes. They give the sound of POWER and maybe even a bit of real useful power
also.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 13, 2006
Subject: Re: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
In a message dated 10/12/2006 1:21:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dwight(at)openweave.org writes:
Regarding your particular point, we'll use my situation as an example. I am
a low-time pilot. I have roughly 350 hours spread over a decade-plus. I have
owned a plane (1967 Cherokee 180, and boy I miss it), gotten my instrument
ticket, and have maybe 8 hours of tailwheel time spread over a few -years-.
The tailwheel plans that I've flown are an RV-6 and a Citabria (by flown I
don't mean just having gotten a ride in, but have done take-offs and landings
with instructors).
I'm a slow builder, so still have time to think about what to do, but I do
get my engine in about a month and a half and think it is remotely possible
I could have the RV-7 flying in as little as a year. (Imagine me crossing
my fingers as I type that sentence ... not an easy thing to do, I'll tell
you.) Two years max. (More crossing of fingers!)
When I go talk to various local folks the response is "Don't sweat it, you'll
do fine". Ok. Great. But ..... I'm left not entirely convinced. I have this
vague worry that what I _should_ do is go out and buy me something along the
lines of a Luscombe 8A for $20K, commit to putting 50 hours/year on it while
I finish the RV, and -then- do the required type-specific RV transition
training with Mike Seager. When I've got the RV flying, sell the Luscombe
(for a tidy profit ... yeah, right) and start my flight testing.
You see, I want to be SURE that I can safely fly my RV once I finish it .....
but when I talk to other folks I start to feel like a paranoid, and that my
concerns are leading me in the direction of overkill. What say you
experienced
folks? Am I being overly cautious?
======================================
In my situation, I first flew a Cherokee 140 in the late sixties for about 5
hours during a high school aviation ground school, then nothing for 15 yrs.
I reacquainted myself with flying when I built and flew an ultralight Eipper
MXL for 400 or so hours back in the mid-eighties. Then came the Kitfox 1 in
the late eighties that I built, got my private license in and put 450 hrs on
over 8 years. Then I built the RV-6A, first flying it in early '98 after a
grand total of one flying hour of additional training (mostly pattern work to
get your head in front of the airplane). I have since taken a few hours of
aerobatic and unusual attitude training to round out my experience, but I
believe that my RV is the best handling plane money can buy.
RVs fly very much the way I always imagined/wished other planes should,
light and responsive controls, but not the least bit twitchy. I have flown my
Kitfox and my RV in every kind of weather/winds, short of tornadoes and
hurricanes, and as long as I was willing to cinch down on the straps, it has always
gotten me thru the chop to where I'm going. If you are an average pilot like
me, after just a few moments at the controls you will feel like your RV is
wired directly into your brain.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr>
Subject: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
Date: Oct 13, 2006
I have the same concern - also a low time pilot but with a fair amount of
time in a Piper Cub. My plan is to get fully cleared on a CAP 10 (aerobatic
180HP tail dragger) for take offs and landings and to do the same on a plane
with a CS prop. Once I have these two under my belt I should be OK to handle
my RV8. My plan is to get this done within six months prior to my first
flight. Transition training in an RV does not appear to be an option in
France.
Michele
RV8 - Fuselage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Sent: jeudi 12 octobre 2006 22:28
Subject: RV-List: Transitioning Low-time Pilots (was: Cirrus - OT)
On Thu Oct 12 15:18:35 2006, Bob Collins wrote :
>Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me
>that low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend
>a LOT of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
>
>Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly
this
>thing safely."
Interesting that you make this comment when you do. I have been pondering
that
very same issue lately. Similar thoughts (i.e. regarding the "ticket-in-Feb,
Cirrus-in-July, dead-in-Oct" sequence of events) occurred to me about the
NYC
accident too.
Regarding your particular point, we'll use my situation as an example. I am
a low-time pilot. I have roughly 350 hours spread over a decade-plus. I have
owned a plane (1967 Cherokee 180, and boy I miss it), gotten my instrument
ticket, and have maybe 8 hours of tailwheel time spread over a few -years-.
The tailwheel plans that I've flown are an RV-6 and a Citabria (by flown I
don't mean just having gotten a ride in, but have done take-offs and
landings
with instructors).
I'm a slow builder, so still have time to think about what to do, but I do
get my engine in about a month and a half and think it is remotely possible
I could have the RV-7 flying in as little as a year. (Imagine me crossing
my fingers as I type that sentence ... not an easy thing to do, I'll tell
you.) Two years max. (More crossing of fingers!)
When I go talk to various local folks the response is "Don't sweat it,
you'll
do fine". Ok. Great. But ..... I'm left not entirely convinced. I have this
vague worry that what I _should_ do is go out and buy me something along the
lines of a Luscombe 8A for $20K, commit to putting 50 hours/year on it while
I finish the RV, and -then- do the required type-specific RV transition
training with Mike Seager. When I've got the RV flying, sell the Luscombe
(for a tidy profit ... yeah, right) and start my flight testing.
You see, I want to be SURE that I can safely fly my RV once I finish it
.....
but when I talk to other folks I start to feel like a paranoid, and that my
concerns are leading me in the direction of overkill. What say you
experienced
folks? Am I being overly cautious?
What I do know is that if I bend this RV after all my _wife's_ help
riveting,
I'll be in deep deep trouble. :)
-- Dwight
________________________________________________________________________________
From: n621tm(at)comcast.net
Subject: GPS/COM For Sale
Date: Oct 13, 2006
I have a Garmin (Apollo) SL60 GPS/COM and a MAP 360 for sale as a set. The two
units come with a pre-wired tray and GPS antenna. The SL60 GPS/COM was yellow
tagged at Flight Electronics in Dallas last week. These items were originally
installed in a Cessna 140, but were removed prior to the plane being sold. The
price for all items is $1800.00. If you have any questions or would like to see
pictures, contact me at n621tm(at)comcast.net
Thanks,
Tom Moore
Dallas, TX
I have a Garmin (Apollo) SL60 GPS/COM and a MAP 360 for sale as a set. The two units come with a pre-wired tray and GPS antenna. The SL60 GPS/COM was yellow tagged at Flight Electronics in Dallas last week. These items were originally installed in a Cessna 140, but were removed prior to the plane being sold. The price for all items is $1800.00. If you have any questions or would like to see pictures, contact me at n621tm(at)comcast.net
Thanks,
Tom Moore
Dallas, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV7a v. Legacy FG v. Glassair SII FT
From: "go_lancair" <glenn.long(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 13, 2006
Ok, no one can resist this kind of question. Each person makes a good point, but
most of you guys have not done enough research. In the same search I visited
each facility, talked to the representatives and by the end of AirVenture 2006
had flown in each aircraft. To say the least Glasiar has lost interest in their
FT's III's etc to go for the cash cow Sportsman. They sent me manuals for
the FT which were completely out of date and poorly bound. I'd be surprised if
they even sold one sport unit this year. The sales curve on that product is somewhere
down there with the Cessna 150. Van's has a good product albiet I found
their staff to be generally rude and little interested in me as a customer.
I bought the empannage kit for the RV-8 (because it was cheap), built it and
gave it to the recylcing center after flying the Lancair. Speaking of flying the
RV(7) it flew just fine as an aircraft but noisy, not especially comfortable
and somewhere the wind was whistling through with annoying prevalence. At take
off time it rattled and shuttered as we approached Vr. The Lancair was incredibly
smooth, fast climbing, and without a whisper of air in the cabin. Climb
out was an easy 110 knots at 2000 ft p/min. I was sold in an instant. Did I
mention Lanciar is the only build with solid controls? Yes, that makes me feel
safer and it gives the plane a solid feeling. Did I mention Lancair is the only
plane in the EAA museum and the NYC modern museum of art? The plane is totally
responsive like I would expect from any good airplane. And no, you don't
need to cross the numbers at 110. I found the staff especially professional and
welcoming (will provide references). BTW I don't know about the Glasair dinner,
but the ramp guy at Airventure was pissed as the demo did not leave the field
all week. I guess that tells you something. So I will start my baby Lancair
in March 07' and get the sniffles from fiberglass dust, life sucks. I have plenty
of cuts from the RV empennage too. No one gets away clean. One thing Van's
doesn't!
promote
is the fact that yes they have over 5,000 kits flying, but have sold over 100,000
kits (or pieces) to people that have no intention of finishing them. Lancair
is no where near those numbers, but as far as I can tell has a strong family
of high flyers. In the end it's your ass in the plane, your 100+k and it should
be finished exactly as you like it. Happy flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67531#67531
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2006
bertrv6(at)highstream.net wrote:
> Hi:
>
> A lot of the comments are that the plane is too fast, what a riduculous
> statement....so we have to fly only Piper J cubs?/
>
First, I never said we should only fly Piper J Cubs so that's a non starter that
you've thrown in there for reasons I don't know and don't really care about
since it has nothing to do with the issue.
But let me give you my reasoning why I brought up the speed issue.
First, I was bringing it up *for me.* As a low-time pilot, I'm aware of the pace
at which things occur even at low speed. I'm aware of Rod Machado's old axiom
that the two most important things about flying an airplane are the next two
you have to do.
A plane travelling faster, it seems to me has those two things happening closer
together.
And I said *I* have gotten behind a slower plane and it is logical to me that
if I got behind a slower machine, there's a greater risk -- although I can't tell
you how much greater -- of falling behind a faster machine.
I don't think that's ridiculous. In fact I know it's not ridiculous *to me.*
I think it's the sort of thing that leads a smart pilot to recognize his limitations
(or her limitations) and get the appropriate amount of training.
Saying one needs the appropriate amount of training to fly a high perforance airplane
is not the same as saying one *can't* or even *shouldn't* fly a high performance
airplane. Although it wouldn't surprise me a bit if a few folks don't
see the difference .
Be aware that when I post a message with a perspective, it's only *my* perspective.
It doesn't have to be anyone else's.
Last point: My kid, who got his driver's license last year, recently bought a motorcycle.
I found out the other day he was zipping down the road at 85. The
fact that the machine will go 85 and provide absolutely no protection isn't an
indictment of the machine. The fact some bonehead will go 85 down the road with
no protection -- and break the law in the process -- speaks volumes about
the bonehead doing so.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67536#67536
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2006
From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RV7a v. Legacy FG v. Glassair SII FT
go_lancair wrote:
>
> Ok, no one can resist this kind of question. Each person makes a good
> point, but most of you guys have not done enough research. In the
> same search I visited each facility,
> Did I mention Lanciar is the only build with solid
> controls? Yes, that makes me feel safer and it gives the plane a
> solid feeling.
What dose that mean? Solid controls? Seems to me like my RV-6 has sokid
controls. And guess what it does not even shake or rattle at takeoff.
> Did I mention Lancair is the only plane in the EAA
> museum and the NYC modern museum of art?
Ii am supposed to be impressed becaue their airplane is in the NYC
museum? LOL They have piss and crap in there also.
> The plane is totally
> responsive like I would expect from any good airplane.
Most military pilots I know like the RV-** feel because it feel more
fighter like and does aerobatics much beter than a Lancair ever could.
> And no, you
> don't need to cross the numbers at 110.
No you don't but you have to be really cose to it. BTW I do have time in
all three aircraft you mentioned.
> I found the staff especially
> professional and welcoming (will provide references).
Van's also will provide you with information and help you find builders
in your area.
>BTW I don't
> know about the Glasair dinner, but the ramp guy at Airventure was
> pissed as the demo did not leave the field all week. I guess that
> tells you something.
???????????????just what does that tell you? Maybe everyone got sick at
the dinner. LOL
> So I will start my baby Lancair in March 07' and
> get the sniffles from fiberglass dust, life sucks. I have plenty of
> cuts from the RV ! empennage too. No one gets away clean. One thing
> Van's doesn't! promote is the fact that yes they have over 5,000 kits flying,
but have sold
> over 100,000 kits (or pieces) to people that have no intention of
> finishing them.
I really doubt that anyone buys a kit with the intention of not
finishing them.
> Lancair is no where near those numbers, but as far as
> I can tell has a strong family of high flyers. In the end it's your
> ass in the plane, your 100+k and it should be finished exactly as you
> like it. Happy flying.
>
Yes Lancairs are pretty airplanes, yes they go fast. No they are nearly
as much fun to fly as a RV. They are like owning a cessna etc. you get
in and go from point A to point B not much fun in between. Any old
airplane will do that.
Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 13, 2006
Subject: Re: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
In a message dated 10/13/06 1:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bertrv6(at)highstream.net writes:
> ( I had to do 2 long ones, as a matter of fact
> one was to Newakr N>Y> back to Baltimore..and I did not have my license
> yet....people I understand by pilots making such commnents...
[Barry] Do I understand you correctly ... You flew your Student Pilot
Cross-country to Newark AP? The three APs EWR, JFK and LGA are in Class B with
a NO
SVFR and a NO STUDENT restriction and NO WAVERS.
> But I digress,, why they didn't turn right or request climb..
>
> Cirrus can fly very well at 100 MPH no?
[Barry] YES, it can do 100 Kts or 100 MPH most acceptably.
BUT! Here is my Hanger Flying synopses of the story:
1 - It was a MARGINAL VFR (MVFR) day.
2 - The instructor just wanted to build time.
3 - The instructor probably had minimal time in type.
4 - MONEY TALKS so they went flying
5 - I have flown the corridor at least 50 times and once even up the EAST
RIVER. They did their flight up the Right Hand side of the river as required -
BUT - they forgot one thing ... You need clearance from ATC to go beyond what
is know as the second bridge. The instructor realized this at the last moment.
6 - How do you make a tight turn? A: Increase the bank and Decrease the
power.
7 - There are some VERY strong winds that come between the buildings, sort of
a venturi effect. So strong on a 9900 day I was jolted so hard that my head
hit the ceiling of the plane and NOT lightly. I would have to call the
winds/gust almost to a point of loss of control. The forward motion of the plane
took it past the venturi between the buildings.
8 - So, I believe they got hit with this venturi wind/gust at the same time
they were in a steep bank at low airspeed.
9 - There is an eye witness (BUNK TO THAT) account that said: it looked like
they were doing aerobatics (DOUBLE BUNK)!
JUST REMEMBER YOU READ IT HERE FIRST!
O! I don't believe anything the media says and I have a VERY hard time
believing what the NTSB says. Remember the flight the Boeing lost its vertical
stabilizer on?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Subject: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
Date: Oct 13, 2006
Everyone should read Phillip Greenspun's theory at:
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/
Phillip is a Harvard prof, an MIT grad, an SR-20 owner, and a CFI... In a
cirrus.
In fact his well-noted article on the qualities of the SR-20 is one of the
finest ever written:
http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/cirrus-sr20
//O! I don't believe anything the media says and I have a VERY hard time
believing what the NTSB says. Remember the flight the Boeing lost its
vertical stabilizer on?
Well, since I'm in the media, this means that Phillip really isn't an SR-20
owner, a CFI, the writer of the article above or the blog listed. (g)
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: LOE day trip
I flew down to Santa Teresa (5T6) just for a quickie look. I flew
east of White Sands and was able to cut the corner of the
southernmost restricted area thanks to the ELP controller. This
was not the first time I was able to do that.
I was surprised to see so many RVs already there at around 130 PM.
After getting gas then taking care of other details, I saw my two favorite
people. No names but they seem to win something at the raffle every year.
I strolled through about half of the RVs and there were beaucoup nice
looking airplanes. If you want to get ideas on paint schemes this is
a great place to do it.
The day was clear, the ride smooth most of the time and I did not
penetrate any active restricted areas. Plus I reached 1000 hours in an
RV on the way down.
The trip back was along I-25 then crossed over towards Las Vegas NM
near Socorro NM then roughly north along I-25. Total around 700 nm in
6.6 hours (including taxi time) and about 44 gallons of gas. Considering
that I did not start until 1000 local and got home before dark that is a nice
day trip.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: catto 3-blade prop
I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a note
to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as good as it
looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands. It will be a few months
before I can start testing, though. I'll be sure to post some results
when I have them.
Craig Catto has a big backlog right now, but he's a good guy to do
business with.
--
Tom sargent
RV-6A.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear(at)new.rr.com>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Date: Oct 13, 2006
Just curious Tom.....How long did it take for you get your prop after you
ordered it??
And yes, it does fly as good as it looks. I have an O320 with a 3 blade
Catto. Just took some dual with a CFI that has RV time and he commented on
how smooth the engine runs.
You're gonna love that prop.
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
> I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a note
> to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as good as it
> looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands. It will be a few months
> before I can start testing, though. I'll be sure to post some results
> when I have them.
>
> Craig Catto has a big backlog right now, but he's a good guy to do
> business with.
>
> --
> Tom sargent
> RV-6A.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Jeff:
I placed the order in mid March. He specified a June delivery,
which I did not believe at the time. I expected to get it in august or
september. I actually got it on Oct. 12. Craig knew that my project
wasn't stopped waiting for the prop. He gives priority to those who are
in more immediate need. I can't really argue with that. I got mine in
plenty of time. He seems to know his stuff and was always happy to talk
to me when I called up. I can't wait to see what this thing will really do.
Jeff Orear wrote:
> Just curious Tom.....How long did it take for you get your prop after
> you ordered it??
>
> And yes, it does fly as good as it looks. I have an O320 with a 3
> blade Catto. Just took some dual with a CFI that has RV time and he
> commented on how smooth the engine runs.
>
> You're gonna love that prop.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff Orear
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:40 PM
> Subject: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
>
>>
>> I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a
>> note to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as
>> good as it looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands.
>
>
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Date: Oct 13, 2006
I have a 3-blade Catto on my 0-320(150hp) RV6. Lot smoother than the
Sensenich I did have on it and climbs much better, but the Sensenich is
about 10 mph faster. I can only turn the Catto a little over 2500 RPM in
level flight and 2475 RPM on the Sensenich.
>From inside the cockpit, the Catto has a unique sound and is quieter.
I like the Catto though for a good all-around prop.
Jerry Calvert
Edmond Ok
RV6 296JC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear(at)new.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
> Just curious Tom.....How long did it take for you get your prop after you
> ordered it??
>
> And yes, it does fly as good as it looks. I have an O320 with a 3 blade
> Catto. Just took some dual with a CFI that has RV time and he commented
on
> how smooth the engine runs.
>
> You're gonna love that prop.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Orear
> RV6A N782P
> Peshtigo, WI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:40 PM
> Subject: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
>
> >
> > I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a note
> > to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as good as it
> > looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands. It will be a few months
> > before I can start testing, though. I'll be sure to post some results
> > when I have them.
> >
> > Craig Catto has a big backlog right now, but he's a good guy to do
> > business with.
> >
> > --
> > Tom sargent
> > RV-6A.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hopperdhh(at)AOL.COM
Date: Oct 14, 2006
Subject: Rudder Strength
The recent ground loop by Senator Inhofe caused me to post this. I read
that his ground loop was caused by some kind of failure of the rudder.
Hopefully, someone will update us on how the rudder failed.
Occasionally, I find that before I buckle the harness in my -7A, I find
myself sitting on a belt or the crotch strap. I have caught myself using the
rudder pedals to raise myself in the seat in able to get them out from under me.
This places extreme tension on the rudder cables and the rudder horn which
I think could eventually lead to failure of the rudder.
Just a thought.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave/Deb" <davwol(at)svtv.com>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Date: Oct 14, 2006
Ordered my Catto prop in Jan, said I did not need it till June. Craig is a
nice guy he said June would be fine. Still have not gotton it.
Dave Wolles
finishing 9A
----- Original Message -----
From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
> Jeff:
> I placed the order in mid March. He specified a June delivery, which I
> did not believe at the time. I expected to get it in august or september.
> I actually got it on Oct. 12. Craig knew that my project wasn't stopped
> waiting for the prop. He gives priority to those who are in more
> immediate need. I can't really argue with that. I got mine in plenty of
> time. He seems to know his stuff and was always happy to talk to me when
> I called up. I can't wait to see what this thing will really do.
>
> Jeff Orear wrote:
>
>> Just curious Tom.....How long did it take for you get your prop after you
>> ordered it??
>>
>> And yes, it does fly as good as it looks. I have an O320 with a 3 blade
>> Catto. Just took some dual with a CFI that has RV time and he commented
>> on how smooth the engine runs.
>>
>> You're gonna love that prop.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jeff Orear
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:40 PM
>> Subject: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a note
>>> to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as good as it
>>> looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands.
>>
>>
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: bill shook <billshook2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
> Last point: My kid, who got his driver's license last year, recently bought a
> motorcycle. I found out the other day he was zipping down the road at 85. The
fact
> that the machine will go 85 and provide absolutely no protection isn't an indictment
> of the machine. The fact some bonehead will go 85 down the road with no protection
--
> and break the law in the process -- speaks volumes about the bonehead doing
so.
But you son does have protection on his motorcycle. Judgement. I bought my first
street bike at 17. A 750 interceptor. Odds are a bike like that kills a new rider
as
fast as he can get it into gear, but judgement is what has taken me through that
and
several other much faster road rockets without an incident in the 20 years that
followed. 200k miles and counting..skin all in tact. Judgement is what will get
your
son by. That same judgement is what makes or breaks a pilot. It is not that your
son
can or does do 85 mph..it is where and under what circumstances he does so.
Judgement...and that comes with experience. Trust in how you raised him, pray
for a
little luck along the way and let the boy live....50 years from now the experiences
of
which is all he will have.
Bill
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Date: Oct 14, 2006
I ordered mine well over a year ago ($700 deposit). Every couple
months I inquire about it, he asks "do you _need_ it now?", I reply,
honestly, "no", and am asked to wait a bit longer.
This has been Ok with me. I believe if I had an engine and did need
that prop, he'd get it to me.
On Oct 14, 2006, at 7:45 AM, Dave/Deb wrote:
>
> Ordered my Catto prop in Jan, said I did not need it till June.
> Craig is a nice guy he said June would be fine. Still have not
> gotton it.
>
> Dave Wolles
> finishing 9A
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>
>
>>
>> Jeff:
>> I placed the order in mid March. He specified a June delivery,
>> which I did not believe at the time. I expected to get it in
>> august or september. I actually got it on Oct. 12. Craig knew
>> that my project wasn't stopped waiting for the prop. He gives
>> priority to those who are in more immediate need. I can't really
>> argue with that. I got mine in plenty of time. He seems to know
>> his stuff and was always happy to talk to me when I called up. I
>> can't wait to see what this thing will really do.
>>
>> Jeff Orear wrote:
>>
>>> Just curious Tom.....How long did it take for you get your prop
>>> after you ordered it??
>>>
>>> And yes, it does fly as good as it looks. I have an O320 with a
>>> 3 blade Catto. Just took some dual with a CFI that has RV time
>>> and he commented on how smooth the engine runs.
>>>
>>> You're gonna love that prop.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jeff Orear
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:40 PM
>>> Subject: RV-List: catto 3-blade prop
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to
>>>> post a note to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies
>>>> half as good as it looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands.
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 14, 2006
Subject: RV's: Difficult to Fly? Nonsense !!
Bob,
With due respect, and I mean that, this brings up one of my pet peeves about
the reputation that RV's seem to have. I don't know how many times I've
heard how difficult they are to fly. I'd like to start a thread here and have
folks weigh in on the subject.
To me, it boils down to a few. They are very fast, so one must be even more
vigilant to stay ahead of the plane, watch for traffic, but just like a
Bonanza or 210 in this regard.
On the short wing RV's it's imperative to mind your speed in the pattern.
Too slow and it's a brick. We've lost a number on that turn to final. The -a
models seem to have a tendency to bend the nose gear, so land on the mains, true
for any trike.
That's about it from my perspective with about 200+hrs. of RV time. I tend
to regard the talk about how difficult they are to fly as urban legend or
OWT's. I took 4 hours with Mike Seager and 3 with a seasoned RV pilot, and that
was it. I was happily surprised that our -6a wasn't the handful as I was told
to expect. (by non-RV pilots of course).
So, Bob and others, take heart. They really are not the skitterish hot rod
portrayed in some circles...
My .05 as usual,
Jerry Cochran
Subject: RV-List: Re: Cirrus - OT
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents -- reminds me
that
low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend a LOT
of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to fly this
thing
safely."
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV7a v. Legacy FG v. Glassair SII FT
From: "go_lancair" <glenn.long(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 14, 2006
I knew that kind of comment would draw the naysayers out from behind the trees.
I would like to hear from the guy that posted the original question. By now he
confused and bewildered, but I agree with the earlier statement of "whatever
floats your boat", then just fly it. I am lucky engh to spend a lot of my time
in the air and not talking about it on the ground. My principle goal is to take
advantage of the newer composite technology enjoy the added speed and comfort
it provides.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67762#67762
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RV's: Difficult to Fly? Nonsense !!
Date: Oct 14, 2006
I have to agree with Jerry. While certainly not recommended, I made my
first flight in my RV-6A without any RV flight time. I attempted to
check out in a Grumman but none readily available (without joining a
club). So I got approx 20 hours in a Cherokee Warrior before the first
flight.
I had an oil temp issue which cause me to abort my planned flight of 5
trips around the pattern and decided to land after first circuit. The
landing was a grease job (I'm told the tires didn't chirp - yes, I did
have a "crash" crew stationed off each end of the runway) - amazing what
concentration will do.
In any case, as I taxied back in, I recall thinking - I didn't even have
to think about flying the airplane, it was so honest and behaved to
control movement as expected. Responsive but not twitchy at all. I
recalled thinking that a Cessna 150 was much harder to get a good
landing in and I have not changed my mind at 350 hours in the RV.
As someone already mentioned, heavily loaded and on a high density
altitude day, you can get an excessive rate of descent if you don't mind
your airspeed on final - and it doesn't have the wing area to give you a
nice flair if sinking fast and slow on airspeed.
It did take a bit of time to get use of trying to slow it down for
pattern entry {:>).
You can kill yourself in any airframe (J3 cub included) if you get
behind the airplane, don't know your aircraft's limitations and most
importantly don't know your own limitations and get into a bad
situation.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV's: Difficult to Fly? Nonsense !!
Bob,
With due respect, and I mean that, this brings up one of my pet peeves
about the reputation that RV's seem to have. I don't know how many times
I've heard how difficult they are to fly. I'd like to start a thread
here and have folks weigh in on the subject.
To me, it boils down to a few. They are very fast, so one must be even
more vigilant to stay ahead of the plane, watch for traffic, but just
like a Bonanza or 210 in this regard.
On the short wing RV's it's imperative to mind your speed in the
pattern. Too slow and it's a brick. We've lost a number on that turn to
final. The -a models seem to have a tendency to bend the nose gear, so
land on the mains, true for any trike.
That's about it from my perspective with about 200+hrs. of RV time. I
tend to regard the talk about how difficult they are to fly as urban
legend or OWT's. I took 4 hours with Mike Seager and 3 with a seasoned
RV pilot, and that was it. I was happily surprised that our -6a wasn't
the handful as I was told to expect. (by non-RV pilots of course).
So, Bob and others, take heart. They really are not the skitterish hot
rod portrayed in some circles...
My .05 as usual,
Jerry Cochran
Subject: RV-List: Re: Cirrus - OT
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Indeed, the accident in New York -- and the Cirrus accidents --
reminds me that
low-time Warrior/Cessna 172 pilots who are building RVs, need to spend
a LOT
of time..... a LOT of time ... in transition training.
Always makes me pause and think, "Am I *really* going to be able to
fly this thing
safely."
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: RV's: Difficult to Fly? Nonsense !!
Jerry:
> I'd like to start a thread here and have folks weigh in on the subject.
I'll take you up on that.
I think the myth that RVs are difficult to fly is a little like the taildragger
myth in that pilots who have little or no experience with both types fret about
them while pilots who regularly fly them can't understand what the big deal is.
But the RV myth differs in that, while a pilot new to taildraggers does have to
learn a couple of new things to fly them, someone transitioning from, say, a
C-172 to an RV doesn't have to learn anything new. It's possible that he'll
have to be a bit more careful to do the things he should be doing in his Cessna
(but might have got lax about). But he doesn't have to learn anything new.
I suspect another factor leading to the RV myth is that so many private pilots
have a background in a handful of airplanes that are designed to handle a
certain way (C-150/172, Cherokee), and RVs handle differently. I checked out
in a C-172 long after I started flying RVs, and I found it much more difficult
to learn than the RV. So I suspect it's the CHANGE that people find difficult,
not the airplane. But, as a result of demographics, that change is far more
likely to be Cessna-to-RV than the other way around.
Finally, there's the effect of manoeuvrability. Any vehicle that has quicker
transient response and more sensitive controls is EASIER than a
lower-performance vehicle once you've adjusted to it. But it's also HARDER to
go up the performance chain than to stay where you are (or go down).
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: jrlewismail-rv(at)yahoo.com
Subject: RV-7 For Sale
I am selling my RV-7 due to a divorce settlement. The specifics are listed
below. I will gladly answer any questions anyone may have. I bought this
kit new in Dec 2002 and have almost completed it. This is a Quick Build RV-
7 taildragger with a slider canopy. It includes ALL Van's kits parts (emp,
fuse, wing, and finish) as well as much more. The cowl is for a standard 1
50-180 hp Lyc. I do not have an engine, accessories, or prop.=0A=0AInfo on
my plane:=0ARV-7 w/ slider = QB complete with all kit parts=0ABuild Stat
us: Ready for engine/prop (eng and prop not included) / panel / canopy ins
tall=0AEquipment / Avionics: (Will permit IFR flight with 3 times redundan
cy!)=0A- Fuel tank flop tubes for inverted flight=0A- Strobes=0A- 2 axis Au
to-Pilot W/ Vertical Speed Hold & GPS Track (servos installed)=0A- Blue Mou
ntain Avionics EFIS=0A- RMI Engine Monitor=0A- RMI Encoder w/independent co
mpass system=0A- Dynon EFIS=0A- Dual Pitot static systems=0A- Landing light
=0A- Taxi Light=0A- Electric Aileron and Elevator Trim=0A- Custom stick gri
ps enable trim, auto-pilot, and nav control=0A- Electric Flaps=0A- EMI Fuel
Monitor System=0A- Wingtip comm./nav antennas=0A- Sitting on a custom buil
t 20 ft flatbed trailer=0A- Top aviation grade wiring installed=0A=0AI am a
professional pilot (USAF) and was building this for myself. The build qua
lity is EXCELLENT.=0AOver $60K invested (not including any build time). I
will sell for $45K cash (no trades or notes). =0AInterested persons may co
ntact me directly at the following email: jrlewismail-rv(at)yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
> It's a real shame because the rest of us will bear the brunt of
> regulations (already they've raised the floor of the VFR corridor,
> squeezing more aircraft into a tighter space) as a result of public outcry.
My reading of the message/NOTAM on this is that you have to talk to ATC
(Laguardia) beyond a certain
point in that area. Hardly a big deal.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan(at)compnetconcepts.com>
The problem itself, isn't the actual result of the NOTAM, but rather the
way it came to be. The whole thing is not a result of any reasonable
cause. It is strictly because of the public outcry. This is exactly
what we as pilots and aviation professionals need to stop.
It is a slippery slope that we are straddling here. If you look at the
notams in effect over Disney properties for example and ask yourself
what purpose/role they fill, what do you see? Clearly the limits of
distance and height are not enough to stop anyone that is bent on
breaking the rules, but enough to satisfy the public that something was
done. Same applies for the Stadium TFR's that come up.
In the end, all it did was allow those entities to control the
advertising above their properties. Nothing else was accomplished by
them, nor is there any justification for them. Technical violations will
be plenty, but safety and reason are no where in the picture.
So, if we as a group agree that this isn't a big deal, then we are
agreeing that is it okay to let others take away our freedoms one piece
at a time for reasons that aren't justifiable. If there is a reason,
beyond public outcry, and it will enhance safety, then I am willing to
agree. However, when it is not based on something that is tangible or
reasonable, then I have to not just go along, even if it isn't a big
deal.
I personally have been appalled at what folks are willing to give up in
the USA. Since the 9/11 attacks, slowly all rights that for hundreds of
years people have fought and died over, we are willing to slowly give up
and agree it is okay to do that "in the name of security". Though the
intent is to be benevolent in nature, it is ripe for abuse of power. I
think that there have been specific things taking place that show how it
can be taken away. It is simple enough to say that the government has
the right to spy on terrorists, but not on us citizens. However we have
seen that all comes down to a definition by someone other than us and
what they decide goes.
Remember the pilot insecurity rule? The TSA has the right to revoke
your license, without disclosing why (under the guise of national
security) for any person and/or reason. They don't need to disclose what
evidence they had, nor was there an appeal process. Again it was
suggested that normal folks need not worry, but what if you ended up on
the wrong side of that because of a misspelling, glitch in system, or
common name, you have no recourse! Folks agreed to it when it was for
terrorists, but never though it would apply to them. When it did, they
had no recourse! As much as it is easy to say it doesn't apply to me,
it will eventually. The idea that is it not a big deal is what will
erode away the capacity we have as pilots. Once they do away with us,
the public will turn on the next easy group. I would suggest that we
need to not be so easy going about it, and fight and demand an
reasonable explanation about it all. It is time to stop being the
scapegoat for folks irrational understanding of our world. Bob Collins
is right on the money when he suggests that we educate folks about what
it is we do. Now more than ever or my children will likely not be able
to enjoy the world of aviation as we do today and less that of my
grandparents...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
> It's a real shame because the rest of us will bear the brunt of
> regulations (already they've raised the floor of the VFR corridor,
> squeezing more aircraft into a tighter space) as a result of public
outcry.
My reading of the message/NOTAM on this is that you have to talk to ATC
(Laguardia) beyond a certain
point in that area. Hardly a big deal.
Ron Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2006
From: Mark Grieve <mark(at)macomb.com>
Subject: Re: Cirrus & journalists
Ever notice that news reports covering something you know a lot about
always contain glaring errors? Could one conclude that ALL news reports
contain errors as well?
I noticed the plural engine and propeller business too. Last I knew
Cirrus wasn't making a twin. Also, they the data and cockpit voice
recorder were not installed on this plane.
mg
JOHN STARN wrote:
>
> I have listened to the news reports and am amazed how many times I heard
> that the "engineS were running" or the "propellerS" have been located &
> are being sent for further examination. There were not multiple engines
> or propellers but on the third day after the accident I again saw an
> info babe babbling on about something to which she has no knowledge or
> understanding. Passing on misinformation from a misinformed source. Do
> Not Archive these soapbox ravings. KABONG
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:54 AM
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Cirrus & journalists
>
>
> ,
>
>
>
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RV's: Difficult to Fly? Nonsense !!
Date: Oct 15, 2006
Hi Tedd-
Wow, what perfectly eloquent and succinct response! Well done!
>
> Jerry:
>
> > I'd like to start a thread here and have folks weigh in on the
subject.
>
> I'll take you up on that.
>
> I think the myth that RVs are difficult to fly is a little like the
taildragger
> myth in that pilots who have little or no experience with both types fret
about
> them while pilots who regularly fly them can't understand what the big
deal is.
>
> But the RV myth differs in that, while a pilot new to taildraggers does
have to
> learn a couple of new things to fly them, someone transitioning from,
say, a
> C-172 to an RV doesn't have to learn anything new. It's possible that
he'll
> have to be a bit more careful to do the things he should be doing in his
Cessna
> (but might have got lax about). But he doesn't have to learn anything
new.
>
> I suspect another factor leading to the RV myth is that so many private
pilots
> have a background in a handful of airplanes that are designed to handle a
> certain way (C-150/172, Cherokee), and RVs handle differently. I checked
out
> in a C-172 long after I started flying RVs, and I found it much more
difficult
> to learn than the RV. So I suspect it's the CHANGE that people find
difficult,
> not the airplane. But, as a result of demographics, that change is far
more
> likely to be Cessna-to-RV than the other way around.
>
> Finally, there's the effect of manoeuvrability. Any vehicle that has
quicker
> transient response and more sensitive controls is EASIER than a
> lower-performance vehicle once you've adjusted to it. But it's also
HARDER to
> go up the performance chain than to stay where you are (or go down).
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
>
>
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 15, 2006
From: bill shook <billshook2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N>Y. Cirruss Accident question
> Jeff,
> I will vote for you if you ever decide to run for office! ;-)
Ditto
Bill
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer(at)mts.net>
Subject: Re: catto 3-blade prop
Date: Oct 15, 2006
> I just received a Catto 3 blade for my IO360. I just had to post a note
> to say it is a beautiful piece of work. If it flies half as good as it
> looks, I'll have a real hot rod on my hands.
I admit the 3 blade looks very cool but I went with the Catto 2 blade for
(theoretically at least) slightly higher cruise efficiency. I have been
running the Catto on my O-320 powered RV-6 for about 12 hours now and I'm
very pleased with the performance. I asked for mine to be pitched for 2700
RPM at 8000', 75% power and it is bang-on. Solo climb is 1500+ fpm, which is
better than any of the Sensenich numbers I have seen.
It came painted to match my aircraft colours and looks superb.I have only
run it in the rain for a hour or so, but the finish shows zero signs of
wear.
It does seem to run slightly rougher than my old wood prop. I'll reserve
judgement until I have it dynamically balanced like the old one.
Delivery was promised to be 2 months; it actually took five. It was worth
the wait but I'm going to keep my old prop as a spare. If I ever ding this
Catto I have no intention of being grounded for 5 months!
Curt
RV-6 C-GACR
470 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com>
Subject: Re: Cirruss Accident question
Date: Oct 15, 2006
Chuck Jensen wrote:
Finally, lest we confuse rights with privilege, we should remind
ourselves that flying is a privilege granted by the majority since it
has been determined, when controlled by rules and regulations, to be
of
minimal harm to the commonweal. We live in a great country because
(for
the most part) most activities are permitted unless they are shown to
be
harmful and detrimental to individuals, groups or society as a whole.
In many other countries, the starting point is everything is
prohibited
unless by birth or gun, one gains the power to do it.
And yet in your own words Chuck, you describe a nation, ours, where
activities are "permitted." The idea that any activity must pass public
review before it's "allowed" is the first step down the slippery slope we as
a nation find ourselves - amid the bureaucracy that rules all our lives
today.
In fact, it is not the "public" that grants us the privilege to fly; it is
the Federal Aviation Administration - whose members aren't elected by
anyone. Indeed, as we all know, the vast "majority" you say granted our
flying privileges hasn't a clue what or how the FAA goes about its
bureaucratic duties.
I don't mean to beat up on you Chuck - this is a societal problem (in my
opinion) that's been developing for decades. The "public" has become so
dependant on its - our - government to tell it when, how, why, where and who
may or may not do what, it's forgotten - in fact fears - what it means to
act and think freely and independently.
I don't believe myself either a purist or realist - I try not to be any
"ist" if possible. But no one with open eyes can fail to see we, as a
nation, HAVE given up rights in the name of security. We HAVE compromised to
feel safer. I ask, safer from what?
The first time we agreed a nameless, baseless, ignorant, seemingly
inarguable fear, a bogeyman, is sound basis to restrict ANY activity, we
gave up the ideal - the very bedrock at the foundation of our nation - of
individual liberty; liberty and freedom to pursue happiness without undue
hassle by people, organizations, agencies and governments over whom we have
no control.
The terrorists who've been attacking this nation for years understand
something very clearly we as a free, comfortable and relatively safe society
seem to have forgotten; once released from the depths of ignorant
imagination, irrational fear is a powerful motivator. One feels motivated to
do. something. anything. the classic fight or flight response. Our military
efforts in the Middle East notwithstanding, I say we here at home have
chosen to run away and hide. Rather than stand up, face our fears and
acknowledge we can't protect everyone all the time, we are trying to do just
that.
It's a hard habit to break. and one our government has engaged in for a long
time. Helmet laws. seatbelt laws. any law you can think of that protects you
from yourself is indicative of the problem. To argue against any "safety"
law seems crazy and "out there," but I would love to've been there had
someone told General George Washington, one of the best horsemen of his
time, he had to wear a helmet while galloping over the hills and thru the
dales on one of his beloved fox hunts. What's changed between now and then?
Can we not allow people to choose their own level of risk?
I don't argue there should be no restriction on activities that could result
in harm to another; automobiles, tractor-trailers, boats, airplanes - they
all have the potential to harm others not involved in their operation. But I
say before we started writing laws we already had a system in place to deal
with those situations where an operator might have acted negligently. the
courts. The courts forced each and every one of us to exercise the
RESPONSIBILITY inherent in our FREEDOM to restrict our own activities.
Our focus as a nation has changed though. Instead of allowing the pursuit of
happiness and using the courts to punish those who act stupidly and
negligently, we seek to restrict "dangerous" activity BEFORE any one is
injured in the name of SAFETY. And this despite the fact that aircraft,
boats, automobiles and even the three-wheeled ATVs now banned in our country
can all be operated with relatively low risk to others - even if the risk is
high the operator - so long as the operator understands his or her
responsibility. Instead, we now count on the government to protect us. When
something goes wrong, it's someone else's fault - and now the courts are
relegated to determining if the manufacturer of a product or device
successfully deduced, in advance, every possible asinine and irresponsible
way its product might be used. It's called Tort. Why do we do this?