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May 23, 2005 - May 31, 2005

>> Thanks, >> James >> #40400 >> >> -- >> There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to >> throw >> yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers >> Guide to >> the Galaxy' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to > throw yourself at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The > Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Ochs" <jochs(at)froody.org>
Subject: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 23, 2005
Hi all, I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and have a couple of questions about what it=92s doing=85 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It=92s a crappy valve that is about =BD=94 in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days I=92ve noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be worried about? 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is done draining? You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention in the tank :P Thanks all=85 James #40400 Just completed prosealing the rudder=85. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Alternator?
Date: May 24, 2005
If I remember, you want to have the boss mount for the RV-10. I originally ordered the alternator from Van's but found out that the Van's alternator is a rebuilt automotive alternator. I also found out that the controller that B&C sells won't work with it. The more I have talked with people who have used the Van's alternator the less confident I was. The Van's alternator has a return value of $160 and the B&C costs $595 (I think). Anyway, you can call B&C and they will be able to tell you. Are you planning on using a B&C or other brand? Scott Schmidt Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: Alternator? Browsing around, what's the difference between "case mount" and "boss mount" alternators? And is there a difference between different IO-540 models, or are they all one or the other? TDT 40025 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 23, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
We've got some capactive probes from Skysports (http://www.airstuff.com/fuelmon.html). We haven't tested them out yet, but here's hoping! Skysports will do custom lengths and custome "bendable" sections. We got 8 inches bendable, then 8 inches of measuring. Skysports will also custom tweak the output circuit for you to be resistive, voltage, etc., for your particular output range (within reason). I think ours were $75 each. The above webpage has lots of info. Ours bend down from the entry point, then bend back up and run diagonally across the width of the first bay of the tank. TDT 40025 still waiting on a friggin' Finish Kit! ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders Hi All, I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone heard from vans recently on this issue? Thanks, James #40400 -- There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Which bucking bar
That special bucking bar starts coming in when you rivet the elevator skins to the rear of the elevator spar. The 2 skins are facing you like 2 big reed valves, and you need a bar that can get in between them and get down on the rivets. With 2 people, that part of the construction went really well for me. I don't think it was for the nose ribs. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage Bill and Tami Britton wrote: > Which bucking bar are you guys using for the HS-905 nose ribs on the > HS??? Is this where the special RV-10 bucking bar comes into play??? > > TIA > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > Riveting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Flap mounting holes
Yup...I found, knew that something had to be missing,, Thanks Timmy!! ________________________________________________________________________________ spamd3.ruraltel.net * -4.0 RCVD_FROM_NEXTECH_4 Message came from 63.163.37-39.x network * 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay * lines
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: Re: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 25, 2005
Bob, I guess I'm not familiar with totalizers. Could you explain them further. How do they differ from the senders??? Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > James > > I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After a > short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of fuel > sender.. > Bob K > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:01 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > Hi All, > > I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive > solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders > to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm > trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 > yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the > concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone > heard from vans recently on this issue? > > Thanks, > James > #40400 > > -- > There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw > yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to > the Galaxy' > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net>
Subject: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 25, 2005
They attach inline in the fuel system and measure the fuel that goes by. I little chip in the controls actually train the totalizer in burn rate and fuel remaining. Bob K -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Tami Britton Subject: Re: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders Bob, I guess I'm not familiar with totalizers. Could you explain them further. How do they differ from the senders??? Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > James > > I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After a > short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of fuel > sender.. > Bob K > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:01 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > Hi All, > > I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive > solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders > to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm > trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 > yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the > concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone > heard from vans recently on this issue? > > Thanks, > James > #40400 > > -- > There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw > yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to > the Galaxy' > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Mark Grieve <mark(at)macomb.com>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
James, I would start with replacing the drain valve. I have a 60 gallon upright that cost $400 but it came with the standard $.25 valve. Useless! You should be able to unthread the valve to get it out of the tank. Take that piece to the plumbing department to match the pipe size and pick up a street elbow, 6 inch nipple and ball valve for that size pipe. It is probably 1/4 inch. Thread the pieces all together using the pipe sealant of your choice and it should be very easy to drain the tank. Additional pieces may be added to direct the discharge into a catch basin. If you want to get really fancy, I believe that Grainger carries a valve that burps the tank drain every time the motor kicks in. I think I need one, of course, but they are a bit pricey. The next compressor.... in the next shop.... Here is another idea. Go to this site http://www.tptools.com/ and search for compressor drain. They list one with a pull cord. I have never seen one but it sounds interesting. The quantity of discharge sounds excessive and I am wondering where you live. Hawaii? Portland? Here in Illinois it is very humid in the summer and I don't get all that much condensation. I drain my compressor at the start of use only because that is when I remember to do it. Warm air will hold more moisture then cold so waiting till the next session may yield even more discharge. The orange tint means the tank is rusting which is going to happen with unprotected steel in the presence of moisture. The tank will eventually rust through and, compared to a replacement compressor, the cost won't be worth it. Not sure what you can do here. There is a sealant available for steel fuel tanks and that might work. Should you worry? Yes, but only at the level that you worry about your roof wearing out. Perhaps others have some good ideas here. Once you replumb the valve, just open it until you get a steady stream of air. Drain it again before you shut off the lights if you like. Mark 7 empennage James Ochs wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and > have a couple of questions about what it's doing... > > > > 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It's a crappy > valve that is about " in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have > to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is > there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? > > 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I > drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days > I've noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with > suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I > should be worried about? > > 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when > it is done draining? > > > > You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an > airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a > good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention > in the tank :P > > > > Thanks all... > > > > James > > #40400 > > Just completed prosealing the rudder.... > ________________________________________________________________________________ ;
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Darton Steve <sfdarton(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
James, The rusty water is normal and is just a byproduct of compressing the moisture out of the ambient air. I installed an automatic drain on my compressor tank, it opens briefly each time the compressor cycles. It is easy to install and was about $10 from Harbor Freight. Steve 40212 wings --- James Ochs wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I have one of those craftsman compressors with the > 26 gallon tank and have a > couple of questions about what its doing > > > > 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. > Its a crappy valve > that is about in diameter and no ears, and I > sometimes have to get the > channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this > normal? Is there a way to > replace it with something that works a bit better? > > 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it > when I drain it. I drain > it every day when I am done with it, and the last > couple of days Ive > noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color > with suspended rust > particles in it. Is this normal or is it something > I should be worried > about? > > 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or > closing it when it is > done draining? > > > > You would think that if it is possible for someone > to build an airplane in > their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to > put a good drain valve > on the compressor and do some kind of rust > prevention in the tank :P > > > > Thanks all > > > > James > > #40400 > > Just completed prosealing the rudder. > > ________________________________________________________________________________ spamd2.ruraltel.net * -4.0 RCVD_FROM_NEXTECH_4 Message came from 63.163.37-39.x network * 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay * lines
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: Re: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 25, 2005
These would be hooked up to your fuel computer, right??? So, if a guy wanted you could have the totalizer and either the float or capacitance senders hooked up to gauges since the totalizer has nothing to do with the fuel quantity gauges, right??? Sorry for the beginner questions. My SB wing's on it's way in about a month and a half and I'm just trying to get a feel for what I'm going to be needing. I did order the float senders from Vans when I ordered the kit. Bill Britton ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > They attach inline in the fuel system and measure the fuel that goes by. I > little chip in the controls actually train the totalizer in burn rate and > fuel remaining. > > Bob K > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Tami > Britton > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:35 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > Bob, I guess I'm not familiar with totalizers. Could you explain them > further. How do they differ from the senders??? > > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:46 PM > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > > > > James > > > > I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After > a > > short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of > fuel > > sender.. > > Bob K > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:01 PM > > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive > > solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders > > to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm > > trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 > > yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the > > concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone > > heard from vans recently on this issue? > > > > Thanks, > > James > > #40400 > > > > -- > > There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw > > yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide > to > > the Galaxy' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________ ;
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Nikolaos Napoli <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Capacitance fuel senders
The only negative about this is that if there is a fuel leak upstream of the flow measuring device you might not know it until you run out of fuel. Niko "bob.kaufmann" wrote: James I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After a short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of fuel sender.. Bob K -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders Hi All, I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone heard from vans recently on this issue? Thanks, James #40400 -- There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 25, 2005
> I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After a > short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of fuel > sender.. > Bob K Bob, Check the FARs... Part 91.205 *requires* fuel quantity indication for each tank. 91.205(b)(9) reads: (9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Which bucking bar
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
I'm pretty sure that I used an Avery #610 for almost all of the tail stuff, if it wasn't that it was the #620. It was NOT the "special" one. That one is actually called out in the manual and there's an option to either use that or blind rivets. Bob #40105 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Tami Britton Subject: RV10-List: Which bucking bar Which bucking bar are you guys using for the HS-905 nose ribs on the HS??? Is this where the special RV-10 bucking bar comes into play??? TIA Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 Riveting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
I think just about all compressors come with that setup for draining. I replaced it with an elbow, short section of pipe, a standard shutoff valve and then a 45 elbow to direct flow toward the floor. I think the fittings are =BC NPT. Really nice to be able to just reach down and open the valve... Bob #40105 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks Hi all, I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and have a couple of questions about what it's doing... 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It's a crappy valve that is about =BD" in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days I've noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be worried about? 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is done draining? You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention in the tank :P Thanks all... James #40400 Just completed prosealing the rudder.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
Normal stuff James. Go back to working on the plane. The more you run the compressor in humid weather the more moisture you will pick up. As it dries out this summer the water content will drop. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks Hi all, I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and have a couple of questions about what it's doing... 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It's a crappy valve that is about =BD" in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days I've noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be worried about? 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is done draining? You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention in the tank :P Thanks all... James #40400 Just completed prosealing the rudder.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Flap Motor
Tim, I would not drive the flap motor directly from the 24 volt bus. Bad things WILL happen. I would also be carefull about how you reduce the voltage. An off the shelf linear voltage regulator will overheat. You need a switching type of voltage regulator to drop the voltage. Not a big deal to do. Jim C #40192 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: James Ochs <jochs(at)froody.org>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
Ok, I feel better. Thanks for all the responses... I'm going to go get the parts to replace that valve tonight. I live in the bay area in California, and we are just coming off of a very wet rainy season so its been fairly humid (well by California standards anyway) and thats probably what it is. I have an inline water trap and oiler in my shop setup. BTW, just to keep me from doing something stupid I buy blue and red hoses... all blue hoses are used before the oiler, all the red ones are used after the oiler. That way its really easy for me keep from using the oiled line with a sprayer or blower ;) As another side note, I just bought one of those nifty rivet squeezers and part of the instructions they sent with it suggest to *NOT* put any oil in the tool because it uses a fair bit of grease on the moving parts inside the cylinders and that the oil will act as a solvent on the grease, then you will need to get it rebuilt again much sooner... Thanks, James Randy DeBauw wrote: > Normal stuff James. Go back to working on the plane. The more you run > the compressor in humid weather the more moisture you will pick up. As > it dries out this summer the water content will drop. Randy > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James Ochs > *Sent:* Monday, May 23, 2005 10:24 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks > > Hi all, > > I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and > have a couple of questions about what its doing > > 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. Its a crappy valve that > is about in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the > channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to > replace it with something that works a bit better? > > 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it > every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days Ive > noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended > rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be > worried about? > > 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is > done draining? > > You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an > airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a > good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention > in the tank :P > > Thanks all > > James > > #40400 > > Just completed prosealing the rudder. > -- There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com>
I drain mine about every 2 weeks. I also get about a cup of water. I have my compressor in the basement and I've piped the air up into my garage. I also have a switch both in the garage and in the basement to turn it off and on. There have been many nights though it has turned on and woke me up "forgot to turn it off.....again" It's great my wife puts up with me sometimes. The air in my basement is cold and it is more humid down there too which is why I'm sure I get so much water. But it was been really nice not to have the compressor in the garage. Anyway, I just drain it and close it back off. If you aren't going to use it for awhile it would probably be best to leave it open during that time. Scott Schmidt Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks Hi all, I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and have a couple of questions about what it's doing... 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It's a crappy valve that is about =BD" in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days I've noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be worried about? 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is done draining? You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention in the tank :P Thanks all... James #40400 Just completed prosealing the rudder.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Which bucking bar
Date: May 25, 2005
From: matronix.rv10(at)4sythe.com
I first tried to use the special HS bucking bar on the nose ribs but the angle was never right on any of the sides. I ended up using a short one that I have that has a 45 degree angle on it. It was easier then to get that angled side parallel with the skin. Make sure you use plenty of pressure on the bucking bar in this area. Also, on the rivets just aft of the front spar. If you don't apply good back pressure here, the mushroom set on the rivet gun hits just near the spar. The spar isn't moving and without good back pressure and attention, you can get some nice dents here. Kent Forsythe 40338 Elevators Wings (to be delivered tomorrow..yipeeee) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com(at)matronix.rv10.at.4sythe. com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Which bucking bar That special bucking bar starts coming in when you rivet the elevator skins to the rear of the elevator spar. The 2 skins are facing you like 2 big reed valves, and you need a bar that can get in between them and get down on the rivets. With 2 people, that part of the construction went really well for me. I don't think it was for the nose ribs. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage Bill and Tami Britton wrote: > Which bucking bar are you guys using for the HS-905 nose ribs on the > HS??? Is this where the special RV-10 bucking bar comes into play??? > > TIA > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > Riveting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Which bucking bar
Date: May 25, 2005
You can use almost anything as a bucking bar. The surface should be smooth and the object needs only enough mass to do the job. I've used steel collars, flat bars clamped to other bars to provide mass, and found some very useful ones at body shop supply houses-only they call them dollys. Albert Gardner RV-9A 872RV Yuma, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Oxygen systems
Date: May 25, 2005
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
And now for something somewhat different..... So I've looked through the archives on this subject and found that many people use oxygen in a permanent or portable manner. Aerox and Mountain High seem to be the most popular systems (no surprise there) but what I haven't been able to find is a good comparison. Being that I am building an RV-10 and I currently expect the average trip to be in the 1000 mile and 3 person area, I plan on installing a permanent mount system and transfill the tank myself (please, let's not go down that discussion path). So my big question is does anyone have a comparison between the two systems. I found an old Aviation Consumer article on the Nelson site but it's a bit outdated. What I really want to know is if the Mountain High EDSip Pulse Demand System really conserves oxygen well enough and has enough benefits to justify a 6k+, 4 seat system. I haven't been able to find any endurance numbers on their site. I have a while before I need to make this decision but curiosity has been bugging me on it. I'm willing to pay a premium for a more advanced system that allows me to go 2-3 times longer between fills but I want the numbers to back it up. Michael Sausen #40352 Elevators ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Subject: Oxygen systems
Date: May 25, 2005
I would post this on the Lancair LML site. If you're not a member of that, I can do it for you. They have had discussions about this very thing, so a search of the LML archives might worthwhile. lml(at)lancaironline.net John Jessen -> Emp (2%) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RV10-List: Oxygen systems And now for something somewhat different..... So I've looked through the archives on this subject and found that many people use oxygen in a permanent or portable manner. Aerox and Mountain High seem to be the most popular systems (no surprise there) but what I haven't been able to find is a good comparison. Being that I am building an RV-10 and I currently expect the average trip to be in the 1000 mile and 3 person area, I plan on installing a permanent mount system and transfill the tank myself (please, let's not go down that discussion path). So my big question is does anyone have a comparison between the two systems. I found an old Aviation Consumer article on the Nelson site but it's a bit outdated. What I really want to know is if the Mountain High EDSip Pulse Demand System really conserves oxygen well enough and has enough benefits to justify a 6k+, 4 seat system. I haven't been able to find any endurance numbers on their site. I have a while before I need to make this decision but curiosity has been bugging me on it. I'm willing to pay a premium for a more advanced system that allows me to go 2-3 times longer between fills but I want the numbers to back it up. Michael Sausen #40352 Elevators ________________________________________________________________________________ ;
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Brcue Patton <bpattonsoa(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Oxygen systems
I use the Mountain High system in my glider. It reduces oxygen consumption to a minimum. Rebreather cannula's are good, but this is a whole order of magnitude better. Their in-panel system looks very good, but expensive. Probably worth the cost, especially in the RV aircraft since you can get into oxygen altitudes so easily. I like to use oxygen above about 9,000 to reduce fatigue and a headache. I have a rebreather cannula and a small hand bottle in the -6A, and does not have major endurance. My glider has an 18 cf bottle and might last the whole season. Filling you own bottle is great if you can get at it easily to remove. We use welders oxygen all the time and don't get flash burns. Bruce Patton John Jessen wrote: I would post this on the Lancair LML site. If you're not a member of that, I can do it for you. They have had discussions about this very thing, so a search of the LML archives might worthwhile. lml(at)lancaironline.net John Jessen -> Emp (2%) --------------------------------- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RV10-List: Oxygen systems And now for something somewhat different..... So I've looked through the archives on this subject and found that many people use oxygen in a permanent or portable manner. Aerox and Mountain High seem to be the most popular systems (no surprise there) but what I haven't been able to find is a good comparison. Being that I am building an RV-10 and I currently expect the average trip to be in the 1000 mile and 3 person area, I plan on installing a permanent mount system and transfill the tank myself (please, let's not go down that discussion path). So my big question is does anyone have a comparison between the two systems. I found an old Aviation Consumer article on the Nelson site but it's a bit outdated. What I really want to know is if the Mountain High EDSip Pulse Demand System really conserves oxygen well enough and has enough benefits to justify a 6k+, 4 seat system. I haven't been able to find any endurance numbers on their site. I have a while before I need to make this decision but curiosity has been bugging me on it. I'm willing to pay a premium for a more advanced system that allows me to go 2-3 times longer between fills but I want the numbers to back it up. Michael Sausen #40352 Elevators ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com>
Subject: RE: Alternator?
Date: May 26, 2005
G'day all, Currently planning my antenna installation. I will be going with a GNS430 and SL30 for all Nav/Comms. Bent whip on belly, straight whip on top for comms. I will be using the Archer nav antenna(s) in the wingtip. I was thinking of one in each side for dual redundancy and optimum performance. Is this overkill? I also notice that there is not much info in the way of installation material for Garmin products on the Garmin website. Anyone know of a source of such material? TIA Ron 40187 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Flap Motor
Date: May 25, 2005
Hi Tim: I wouldn't venture a guess on running the 12 motor at 24 volts. Van sells a flap position switch sytem that I believe does provide the one click up function you mention. See http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1117073011-52-705&browse=airframe&product=fps Dick Sipp 40065 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> Subject: RV10-List: RE: Flap Motor For various reasons, we're going to have a 24 V bus system in our -10, which can be a pain sometimes, like with the 12 V flap motor. For the short duration that the Flap motor runs, what about the crazy idea of just going ahead and running that sucker on 24 volts? Might speed up the Flap deployment, too. Or is that just a stupid way to burn out the motor? While we're on the subject, is anyone doing a simple limit-switch "one-touch" flap retraction arrangement? Where are you mounting the limit switch? On the flaps themselves, or is there any way to do it on the flap motor or actuator assembly? TDT 40025 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2005
From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Subject: RE: Alternator? (Garmin install manuals)
>I also notice that there is not much info in the way of installation >material for Garmin products on the Garmin website. Anyone know of > a source of such material? > >TIA >Ron >40187 Wings Ron, Garmin took most of their installation manuals off the "public" side of their website a while back. I have most of the Garmin install manuals however. Let me know which one(s) you need. William #40237 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Date: May 25, 2005
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet. Bob Spudis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which bucking bar
Date: May 25, 2005
Bill, The special bar is not for the nose but for the elevator rear spar and you will most likely need it, try to borrow one if you can, three of us swapped one around here in Las Vegas. On the leading edge HS I used a bar that has a rounded nose, Avery number 610. It almost matched the shape of the leading edge. I also have found the following handy thru almost completing the wings. Avery #'s 620, 635, 670, 690 and I borrowed a 685 to get the wing top skins to rear spar completed. Hope that helps. Rick S. 40185 Wings ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill and Tami Britton To: RV10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: RV10-List: Which bucking bar Which bucking bar are you guys using for the HS-905 nose ribs on the HS??? Is this where the special RV-10 bucking bar comes into play??? TIA Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 Riveting HS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Capacitance fuel senders
Date: May 25, 2005
Bill, Basically your engine monitor (or whatever you plan to use to manage fuel) if capable, gets a signal from a flow sensor that calcs amount of fuel flowing through the fuel line, it will calculate GPH and total fuel used. It's how the fighters and transports do it. Be advisded it needs ot be calibrated and setup for your aircraft. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > > Bob, I guess I'm not familiar with totalizers. Could you explain them > further. How do they differ from the senders??? > > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:46 PM > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders > > >> >> James >> >> I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks. After > a >> short learning session, they will be more accurate than either type of > fuel >> sender.. >> Bob K >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs >> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:01 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Capacitance fuel senders >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find any definitive >> solutions in the previous posts... I'd prefer capacitance fuel senders >> to floats for my 10, and as I'm getting ready to order the wings I'm >> trying to figure out what to do about it. Has anyone put any in their 10 >> yet? Any ideas? Should I just go with one of the probe type with the >> concentric tubes as opposed to waiting for the plates for the 10? Anyone >> heard from vans recently on this issue? >> >> Thanks, >> James >> #40400 >> >> -- >> There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw >> yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide > to >> the Galaxy' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 25, 2005
James, It's normal, the inside of the tank is bare steel, as air is compressed it gives up it's moisture, (hence the rust and brown water) the higher the humidity the more condensation forms and the more the tank fills. I drain mine every few days because the RH here is about 10 percent, in a place like Florida your tank can fill considerable with water. If anynoe remembers James McClow, he has several gallons in his tank and could not figure out why he was running out of air until he found the drain....He was in Seminole Florida. I drain the water under pressure, run the compressor a minute to completely purge and then close the valve. I use a pair of duck bill pliers because my valve is stubborn as well. Most manufactuers recommend draining the tank after each days use. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ochs To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks Hi all, I have one of those craftsman compressors with the 26 gallon tank and have a couple of questions about what it's doing. 1) the drain valve is very difficult to turn. It's a crappy valve that is about =BD" in diameter and no ears, and I sometimes have to get the channel locks out to get it to turn. Is this normal? Is there a way to replace it with something that works a bit better? 2) I get A LOT of water draining out of it when I drain it. I drain it every day when I am done with it, and the last couple of days I've noticed the water coming out has a nice orange color with suspended rust particles in it. Is this normal or is it something I should be worried about? 3) Should I be leaving the drain valve open or closing it when it is done draining? You would think that if it is possible for someone to build an airplane in their garage, the tool guys could figure out how to put a good drain valve on the compressor and do some kind of rust prevention in the tank :P Thanks all. James #40400 Just completed prosealing the rudder.. ________________________________________________________________________________ ;
Date: May 25, 2005
From: Dan Benua <danbenua(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV10--List: Capacitance fuel senders
Hi James, I've installed capacitive senders in my RV-10 tanks. Van's won't provide a kit for quite some time (next year?) but you can make your own by adapting the kit they provide for the other RV models. I chose capacitive senders to get improved accuracy and reliability. Float senders have given me problems with both characteristics, so I wanted to try something different. That kit provides two aluminum plates supported by insulated spacers next to the most inboard and most outboard interior ribs of the tank. As the tank fills, the capacitance between the plates and the tank ribs increases because of the difference in the dielectric constants of air and fuel. The installation is not difficult, but requires careful sealing of the back end of the BNC connector installed in the inboard tank end rib. (I had a leak there in one of my tanks!) I made a few "improvements" in the standard kit aimed at increasing the maximum (full) capacitance and increasing the ratio between the full and empty capacitance values. My hope is to improve accuracy and noise margin compared to the stock design. The first change was to reduce the spacing between the plates and the ribs from 3/8" to 1/4". This increases both the empty and full capacitance values. The second change was to move the wire connecting the plates and the BNC connector away from the tank vent tube. This reduces the "fixed" capacitance caused by wrapping the wire around the vent tube. Once you see the drawings and instructions in Van's kit this description should become more clear. One caution is that these modifications have not yet been tested with fuel in the tank and a capacitive fuel gauge. I have talked with Rob Hickman and his engine monitor should be able to accommodate my design changes. I'll give a little introduction since this is my first post to this group (I've been lurking since the beginning!) I'm a repeat offender with an RV-6A that has been flying for almost six years. (It has float senders!) I'm also a Technical Counselor with EAA Chapt 105 in Hillsboro, Oregon (also known as the Home Wing of Van's Airforce). I'm currently working on the control surfaces of my slow-build wings. And yes, I was the first person to order an RV-10 empa-cone! - Dan Benua #40001 __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RV-10 Line Drawing
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com>
Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint scheme's. Thank You Ray Doerr Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com 40250 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Larry <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Antenna (was Alternator?)
Long post, but sometimes there is too much information I do not think the dual nav and com antennas is over kill. Below you will find a a bunch of recent posts on antenna selection and antenna doublers and what I am thinking of using. Com - Bent whip Dorne & Margolin here: <http://www.steinair.com/avionics.htm> or a Comant CI-122 here: <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/com_comant.php> probably 2, one for each com Nav & Marker Beacon - Bob Archer's Sportcraft NAV antenna from Bob Archer. bobsantennas(at)earthlink.com (310) 316-8796 info here: <http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/bob_archer.htm> GPS & XM Radio - Nothing special, just mounted on the dash Transponder - TED Transponder Antenna (similar to Comant CI-101) ACS has one for $19.95 here: <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ted_transponder.php> StineAir has one for $26 here: <http://www.steinair.com/avionics.htm> Hay Stine why is yours more expensive? Also there a Comant fin type Transponder antenna like th CI 305, but they are like $175. Is it worth it? Larry Rosen Waiting on QB Wings Other posts: Today I ordered some of my antennas, but didn't get them all because I have some questions. I ordered: 2 Comant CI-122 Bent Whip Com antennas for the belly 1 TED Transponder antenna (similar to Comant CI-101) 1 Comant Marker Beacon antenna CI-102 My plan for the NAV/GS is to put a Comant Cat Whiskers antenna on the top of the Vertical Stab. I was thinking the CI-157P. Is there a better suggestion? I was also planning to get a Nav Coupler to split the NAV's into 2 signals, but I'm not sure if you can also split the Glideslope into 2 signals. Any tips there would be appreciated. I'm going with an SL-30 and GNS-480, by the way, and I know that some of those have the ability to split the signals built right in. It is possible, since I know that when you couple the antennas like that, you actually "share" the signal, so you don't get the full power to each radio, that I'll do something else like put a Bob Archer Nav/GS antenna in the Right wingtip also, so I don't have to couple the Nav/GS signals. If that's the better option, point me in that direction...it's probably as cheap as a coupler anyway. As for the GPS antenna, I talked to Comant at SNF and they mentioned that even though my GNS-480 will come with an antenna, I would be better off with a GPS/XM radio antenna like the CI-420-420...since I plan to have XM weather on my MX-20 (or GRT EFIS). That one is still up in the air. Any other recommendations always appreciated. As you can tell though, I'm not against the porcupine look, so don't bother talking me into concealed antennas just for the sake of hiding them. My main goal is the strongest, clearest, most reliable signal.....then I'll think about cosmetics. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage It would be a lot cheaper just to glue a $20 XM antenna to your dashboard instead of paying COMANT $$ for a combined antenna. That's the beauty of a non-certified install . . . TDT Hi All, The best operating NAV antenna installation available is Bob Archer's Sportcraft NAV antenna. Nothing works better than this. It also happens to be installed in the wingtip. You can install one in each wingtip for each radio. (No you can not joint them together. There is a node for every two feet of wingspan.) You can also install one of Bob's Marker Beacon antenna kit in one of the wingtips. Or he can tell you how to make your own from a piece of coax. Nav antenna $65 each Marker Beacon antenna kit $25 each from Bob Archer. bobsantennas(at)earthlink.com (310) 316-8796 Regards, Jim Ayers Tim, I will likely have te same radios as you but opted for an Archer nav antenna in each wingtip to avoid aving to split the signal (loss). I also went w/Bob Archer's suggestion of the MB in the wingtip - it's a 53" section of coax w/ the shielding removed. That leaves the only exposed antennas as a pair of CI-122 bent whips for comms, a CI-105 for the transponder and GPS antenna(s). I'm out of town right now but will definitely do more research into the potential doubler issue tis weekend. If it is indeed an issue it won't be a huge problem to fix, just time... Bob #40105 Bob Cosmetics Aside, I'd use the Archer wingtip version for BOTH the NAV & Mkr Beacon. They perform beatifully, and Bob can give you some details as to why his Mkr Beacon antenna actually will out-perform the slet/boat type antennas. Heck, for the price, put one NAV antenna in each wingtip, then forget about all the diplexer/splitter headache. I also agree with the previous lister, I wouldn't bother with the combined XM/GPS antenna...it's more of a marketing gimmic than a real huge advantage. Also, good decision on the bent whip. You'll be hard pressed to find a better performing antenna on these RV's. Both the D&M as well as the Comat perform very well. Just my 2 cents (and no...I'm not selling the Archer antennas...yet)! Cheers, Stein. Here's a little blurb from Bob regarding Antennas... http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/bob_archer.htm -Sean What you really need is a flush mount transponder antenna. That way you don't have that draggy 4" long antenna hanging out the bottom. :-) Regards, Jim Ayers We are going with a Bob Archer NAV in one wingtip and a COM in the other. We have our GPS antenna going on the dash. We have another COM antenna off a Mooney (aerodynamic - no round surfaces causing lots of drag) going on the belly with a Transponder fin and a Marker Beacon boat. There will be no holes on the top of our airplane to have to seal. Only three antennas will be external. We are putting the ELT in the tail under the VS/HS fairing. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org Also a post on antenna doublers A properly prepared doubler (compliant with AC 43.13-2A) is usually tied into the adjacent ribs and or J stiffeners. That is a feature which might get addressed sooner in the antenna selection (location) process for the SB guys. The tie-in is to relieve skin stress, flex and oil canning from the antennae drag coefficient. Let me know how you and the rest of the QB guys solve it Tim. John Tim, I just did doublers on the skin between the ribs and didn't tie them into the ribs. I put nutplates on the doublers and attached them to the skin via the nutplate mounting rivets that were covered by the antennas. Here's a link on the freedomflyers.com site and my locations match those shown (for comm and transponder). You can't really move the antennas to the next bay outboard because the aft ends will extend beyond the fuselage. The access panels in the seat bottoms are just large enough to get a hand in to reach the cable for whatever reason. I considered just anchoring it, but figured it wouldn't take long to make the panels and I'd regret it later if I didn't. link: http://freedomflyers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60 Bob #40105 Thanks Niko, that's why it is not optional for A & P mechanics or Avionics Installers. The Feds found that it will happen, its just a matter of when. The tragedy is that the skin that fails is so large in dimension to replace on an RV-10, it has to be done with an unsightly exterior patch. If it is planned for, we get to learn to make a joggle and change the rivets out to a longer length, while using the matched holes provided by the CNC instructions. I guess new builders do not understand the importance of antennae selection and location much earlier in this process. John McGANN, Ron wrote: > >G'day all, > >Currently planning my antenna installation. I will be going with a GNS430 >and SL30 for all Nav/Comms. Bent whip on belly, straight whip on top for >comms. I will be using the Archer nav antenna(s) in the wingtip. I was >thinking of one in each side for dual redundancy and optimum performance. >Is this overkill? > >I also notice that there is not much info in the way of installation >material for Garmin products on the Garmin website. Anyone know of a source >of such material? > >TIA >Ron >40187 Wings > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RV-10 Line Drawing
Date: May 26, 2005
Here you go _____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Line Drawing Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint scheme's. Thank You Ray Doerr Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com 40250 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote: > Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is > inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet. > I looked at the two they offer, and unless I mis-read, they were limited to 100psi. My compressor normalizes at 120psi, so I didn't think I could use either of them. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: stupid compressor tricks
Dj Merrill wrote: > > NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote: > >> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is >> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet. >> > > > I looked at the two they offer, and unless I mis-read, > they were limited to 100psi. My compressor normalizes at > 120psi, so I didn't think I could use either of them. Damn, I wish you hadn't said that!!! Now I'm going to have to take mine out. Nah, I think I'll leave it in there ..... been in there for 2-3 years. BTW, the plastic hose is what's rated at 100 PSI. Linn > > > -Dj > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Subject: RE: Oxygen systems
I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the 6K+ MH system was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000 system. http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003 If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of line are typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum? William #40237 - wings http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian" <av8er(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Alternative to conventional kit shipping
Date: May 26, 2005
I have been agonizing over the prospect of having my QB -10 kit shipped via traditional freight given the number of problems discussed in this group (not to mention the damage to my own empennage kit last fall). Today I was browsing the vansairforce.net sight and came across this post: http://www.vansairforce.net/Graphics/PartainTruckingCo.htm I spoke to Tony today and added my name to his schedule for delivering my -10QB. He is a super guy to talk to and a fellow RV builder. Even better is the money I will save. His rate was competitive with the trucking company and I don't have to pay Van's $1K for crating and be left with all the packing material to dispose of. Even better is that he will deliver to my home on a tralier that's easily to get out of. He is not limiting his routes to the states listed on this link. Brian Sutherland #40308 tailcone almost complete Nashville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian" <av8er(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to conventional kit shipping
Date: May 26, 2005
More detailed contact info for Partain Trucking... Tony Partain Partain Transport Company 2512 NW Ordway Ave Bend OR 97701 800-774-0828 watts 541-330-0828 local 541-330-0831 fax 541-749-0835 cell tpartain(at)bendbroadband.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:57 PM Subject: Alternative to conventional kit shipping I have been agonizing over the prospect of having my QB -10 kit shipped via traditional freight given the number of problems discussed in this group (not to mention the damage to my own empennage kit last fall). Today I was browsing the vansairforce.net sight and came across this post: http://www.vansairforce.net/Graphics/PartainTruckingCo.htm I spoke to Tony today and added my name to his schedule for delivering my -10QB. He is a super guy to talk to and a fellow RV builder. Even better is the money I will save. His rate was competitive with the trucking company and I don't have to pay Van's $1K for crating and be left with all the packing material to dispose of. Even better is that he will deliver to my home on a tralier that's easily to get out of. He is not limiting his routes to the states listed on this link. Brian Sutherland #40308 tailcone almost complete Nashville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Oxygen systems
Nothing so extravagant for O2 systems. They usually use Vinyl or Tygon type stuff. I'm sure you could plumb it with your regular 1/4" plastic hose if you wanted to. I'm not knowledgeable about Aviation O2 systems....but I used O2 systems quite a bit related to mixed-gas SCUBA diving. O2 is pretty easy to manage until you start to put it under some good pressure. If you were trying to run cylinder pressures to a remote regulator, yeah, you'd be looking at doing some copper lines. If it's very low pressure O2 like what would be used in cannula delivery, it's gonna be just like those hoses used in the big airliners that hold the dropdown masks.... Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 William Curtis wrote: > I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the > 6K+ MH system was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000 > system. > > http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003 > > If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of > line are typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum? > William > #40237 - wings > http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Subject: stupid compressor tricks
Date: May 26, 2005
Harbor Freight link http://order.harborfreight.com/EasyAsk/harborfreight/results.jsp?ts=Thu%20Ma y%2026%2011:57:06%20PDT%202005 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat(at)aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet. Bob Spudis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Oxygen systems
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
I did do some more digging and finally found the endurance charts on MH's site. They claim a 7-8 fold increase in endurance using their demand delivery systems. Based on comments from the Lancair crowd and some other sites, I believe that this is probably true. For me it is important to be able to possibly supply 4 people for up to 20 hours off of a single fill at around 18,000 feet. That should cover me in 90% of all scenarios and allow me to fill from an industrial tank at home myself. For plumbing, MH is low pressure in all tubing and most of the connections and lines are barbed and plastic respectively. Personally, I do not like the idea of HP oxygen running around through the cockpit. Gives me the willies. The only plumbing that would be high pressure would be a remote fill for a permanent install and that would have to be metal. I really like the flexibility the EDS4ip provides along with the endurance. Some people seemed concerned about the saturation levels being too low but most people that checked it with a pulse ox meter showed constantly above 90%. I really wish it wasn't so costly but I'm thinking it would be worth the investment. Michael ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis Subject: RV10-List: RE: Oxygen systems I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the 6K+ MH system was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000 system. http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003 If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of line are typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum? William #40237 - wings http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Performance Comparison
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com>
Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt The RV-10 is a great all-around plane. I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/> Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit) Salt Lake City, UT Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Performance Comparison
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Nice comparison. I was comparing the RV-10 to the Piper Seneca twin the other day and the numbers were close in a lot of ways . . . EXCEPT PRICE! TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt The RV-10 is a great all-around plane. I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/> Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit) Salt Lake City, UT Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Performance Comparison
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Scott: How about adding fuel burn and stall speeds to your charts? TDT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt The RV-10 is a great all-around plane. I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/> Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit) Salt Lake City, UT Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Performance Comparison
Date: May 26, 2005
Good idea. OK here is what I have for stall speed: RV-10 63 mph 182 56 mph SR-20 62 mph SR-22 62 mph What do you think for fuel burn for each? They don't list these numbers? Fuel Burn RV-10 182 SR-20 SR-22 Scott Schmidt sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Performance Comparison Scott: How about adding fuel burn and stall speeds to your charts? TDT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:59 PM To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt The RV-10 is a great all-around plane. I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/> Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit) Salt Lake City, UT Cell: 801-319-3094 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Hey guys, I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though, function before beauty. I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches. So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Tim: Looks nice. One recommendation: How about using 2 1/4 inch backup airspeed, altimeter, and ADI? I know 2 1/4 inch electric ADIs can be expensive, but how about the 2 1/4 inch TruTrak ADI? It would free up a little space on your panel so it wasn't so tight, and probably be visually more pleasing. When you say Chelton has glideslope guidance worked out with the TruTrak, you mean vertical GPS "glideslope", eh? They don't have ILS integration . . . P.S. With that tail number, people are going to think you're a Cirrus wanna-be . . . TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Hey guys, I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though, function before beauty. I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches. So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com
Date: May 26, 2005
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Tim, We will have before Oshkosh the interface from the AF-2500 engine monitor to the Chelton System. We are also working on the new AF-1 MFD. The AF-1 is a 3.8" Airdata Computer. It will give you Altitude, Airspeed, Vertical Speed, Density Altitude, True Airspeed, and a G-Meter. The AF-1 will also interface to our AOA Sport for AOA information. The AF-1 looks like a smaller version of the AF-2500. You will also be able to show EFIS data if it is connected to an external AHARS module. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
Tim, Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director! I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so I don't know how expensive it is yet? Wayne E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > Hey guys, > > I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided > to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all > my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you > insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. > It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, > who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen > Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak > autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, > and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. > My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go > the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel > should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use > that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking > is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me > though, function before beauty. > > I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for > in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their > equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they > have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. > > Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with > TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it > working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. > > I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come > through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to > get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features > and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. > > A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: > SL-30/SL-40 > GNS-480/SL-40 > GNS-480/SL-30 > SL-30/SL-30 > Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The > Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. > So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 > would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers > fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is > that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. > Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't > add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons > got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other > enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS > capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS > which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the > best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an > SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd > want to do WAAS approaches. > > So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. > > Tim > > -- > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Hey Wayne, That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :) Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it! All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232 to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out, I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower cost. I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person, with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see adding an external CDI. The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI will be just the ticket for me. As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But, there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;) Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Wayne Edgerton wrote: > > Tim, > > Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end > up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program > in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of > limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when > that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see > on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I > will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I > believe I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. > > I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up > with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They > give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. > I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude > indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I > might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director > and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director! > > I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, > so I don't know how expensive it is yet? > > Wayne E > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > To: "RV10" > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM > Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > >> Hey guys, >> >> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >> though, function before beauty. >> >> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >> >> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >> >> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >> >> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >> SL-30/SL-40 >> GNS-480/SL-40 >> GNS-480/SL-30 >> SL-30/SL-30 >> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. >> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't >> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >> want to do WAAS approaches. >> >> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >> >> Tim >> >> -- >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> Current project: Fuselage >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
<42967D6E.6000104(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
Hi Tim, My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of the year and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000. The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal is to have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if that's true. Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why? Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey Wayne, > > That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say > you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :) > Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it! > > All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but that's > ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) > > For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. > May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable > at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if > I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single > airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's > one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for > a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a > perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and > it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232 > to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you > have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out, > I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS > 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS > in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more > WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower > cost. > > I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read > up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing > approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample > picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person, > with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly > perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there > is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see > adding an external CDI. > > The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else > able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from > TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI > will be just the ticket for me. > > As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but > they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get > to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really > depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be > cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're > one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But, > there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the > budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not > "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;) > Tim > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Wayne Edgerton wrote: >> >> >> Tim, >> >> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end >> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program >> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of >> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when >> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see >> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will >> be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe >> I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. >> >> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with >> a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a >> lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard >> that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will >> also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in >> it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director and there great. >> Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director! >> >> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so >> I don't know how expensive it is yet? >> >> Wayne E >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> >> To: "RV10" >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM >> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen >> >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >>> though, function before beauty. >>> >>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >>> >>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >>> >>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >>> >>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >>> SL-30/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-30 >>> SL-30/SL-30 >>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. >>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't >>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >>> want to do WAAS approaches. >>> >>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>> Current project: Fuselage >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
<42967D6E.6000104(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
Tim, By the way I didn't say you didn't need the 3rd unit, I said I didn't think I needed the 3rd unit. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey Wayne, > > That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say > you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :) > Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it! > > All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but > that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) > > For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. > May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable > at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if > I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single > airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's > one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for > a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a > perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and > it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232 > to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you > have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out, > I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS > 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS > in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more > WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower > cost. > > I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read > up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing > approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample > picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person, > with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly > perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there > is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see > adding an external CDI. > > The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else > able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from > TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI > will be just the ticket for me. > > As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but > they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get > to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really > depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be > cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're > one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But, > there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the > budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not > "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;) > Tim > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Wayne Edgerton wrote: >> >> Tim, >> >> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end >> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program >> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of >> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when >> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see >> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I >> will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I >> believe I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. >> >> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up >> with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They >> give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. >> I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude >> indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I >> might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director >> and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director! >> >> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, >> so I don't know how expensive it is yet? >> >> Wayne E >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> >> To: "RV10" >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM >> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen >> >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >>> though, function before beauty. >>> >>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >>> >>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >>> >>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >>> >>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >>> SL-30/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-30 >>> SL-30/SL-30 >>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. >>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't >>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >>> want to do WAAS approaches. >>> >>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>> Current project: Fuselage >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Rob, How about just basic Arnave/EI fuel data information from the AG-2500 to your GPS navigator? I can't determine from you web site if this feature exists in your product. >We will have before Oshkosh the interface from the AF-2500 engine >monitor to the Chelton System. > >Rob Hickman >Advanced Flight Systems > William Curtis http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Lark" <jrlark(at)bmts.com>
Subject: compressor tricks
Date: May 26, 2005
Gents: The Harbor Freight compressor auto drain down valve sounds great, but having seen these devices in operation in a nuclear power plant for the last 25 years, I can tell you they will eventually screw up from rust, crud etc. Save yourself future problems and buy a few pipe fittings and a ball valve (makes it real easy to open) for the drain . Guaranteed to outlast the compressor. Rick Lark '76 C-177B (future RV10 builder, had the demo flight) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Emailing: Chelton Panel
Date: May 26, 2005
Tim, I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have pretty much decided on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its engine data from GRT, and you can get a dual GRT EFIS display with a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also has RPM and Manifold data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If you choose the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they will just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason for this is that it gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I have attached a picture (I think!) of the setup. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel
Date: May 26, 2005
For all the folks looking at various EFIS configurations, I would suggest caution in mounting an MFD away from the PFD such as on the other side of a radio stack on the right side of a panel. This may look nice and symmetrical but I believe you would find that the instrument scan would be difficult particularly during approaches. Human factors research suggested that the best configuration is PFD over MFD from an eye movement standpoint. PFD with MFD immediately to the right is probably the next best choice. Point is your eyes will often be moving from PFD to MFD and the farther apart they are the more difficult that becomes. Finally, you may learn to not like looking at a PFD that is not centered as much as possible directly in front of the pilot. After several thousand hours looking at a variety of EFIS configurations in corp. jets it is surprising how a seemingly small factor can become a real irritant or conversely make the airplane a pleasure to fly. Having said that, the panel is the place on the airplane where we can really express our personal likes and dislikes so to each his own. Dick Sipp RV4 RV10 40065 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:41 PM Subject: RV10-List: Emailing: Chelton Panel Tim, I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have pretty much decided on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its engine data from GRT, and you can get a dual GRT EFIS display with a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also has RPM and Manifold data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If you choose the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they will just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason for this is that it gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I have attached a picture (I think!) of the setup. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Larry <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> BUT, it IS quite the poor man's Cirrus! :) This prompted me to compare. Attached is an excel spreadsheet with a comparison of the Cirrus to the RV-10. It is amazing how similar they are. Almost exactly the same size. (I am sure our RV-10 has more interior space.) Similar speed, similar range. But 226 to 156 pounds more useful load with full fuel (thats a whole extra person) Also 500 less feet to land and 500 less feet to take off. All for considerably less money. Built the way we want with the features and functions we want. Larry Rosen #356 Waiting on QB Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Larry <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel
Vic has his dual Cheltons arranged one on top of each other. You could probably do that and then put the analog gages stacked vertically to one side. (you can see it on Tim's site <http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/VicsRV10/panel/RV-10-panel_1.html>) Vic, are you still around? You have to be close to flying. Larry Rosen Richard Sipp wrote: > For all the folks looking at various EFIS configurations, I would > suggest caution in mounting an MFD away from the PFD such as on the > other side of a radio stack on the right side of a panel. This may > look nice and symmetrical but I believe you would find that the > instrument scan would be difficult particularly during approaches. > Human factors research suggested that the best configuration is PFD > over MFD from an eye movement standpoint. PFD with MFD immediately to > the right is probably the next best choice. Point is your eyes will > often be moving from PFD to MFD and the farther apart they are the > more difficult that becomes. Finally, you may learn to not like > looking at a PFD that is not centered as much as possible directly in > front of the pilot. > > After several thousand hours looking at a variety of EFIS > configurations in corp. jets it is surprising how a seemingly small > factor can become a real irritant or conversely make the airplane a > pleasure to fly. > > Having said that, the panel is the place on the airplane where we can > really express our personal likes and dislikes so to each his own. > > Dick Sipp > RV4 > RV10 40065 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:41 PM > *Subject:* RV10-List: Emailing: Chelton Panel > > Tim, > > I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have > pretty much decided on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its > engine data from GRT, and you can get a dual GRT EFIS display with > a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also has RPM and Manifold > data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If you choose > the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they > will just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason > for this is that it gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I > have attached a picture (I think!) of the setup. > > Mark > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
I don't believe that requirement regarding a second nav display head. Theoretically, you don't need any ILS display head - you'd just be limited to non-precision approaches. Same thing if your EFIS goes Tango Uniform, you could still do a non-precision GPS approach using the CDI display on the GPS unit itself. There are 1000+ Cirrus aircraft flying with the Avidyne Entegra PFD as their sole display of horizontal and vertical deviation. Of course, that's a certified EFIS, but the principle is the same . . . TDT 40025 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Wayne Edgerton Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Hi Tim, My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of the year and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000. The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal is to have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if that's true. Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why? Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey Wayne, > > That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say > you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :) > Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it! > > All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but that's > ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) > > For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. > May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable > at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if > I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single > airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's > one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for > a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a > perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and > it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232 > to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you > have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out, > I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS > 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS > in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more > WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower > cost. > > I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read > up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing > approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample > picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person, > with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly > perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there > is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see > adding an external CDI. > > The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else > able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from > TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI > will be just the ticket for me. > > As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but > they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get > to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really > depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be > cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're > one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But, > there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the > budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not > "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;) > Tim > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Wayne Edgerton wrote: >> >> >> Tim, >> >> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end >> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program >> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of >> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when >> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see >> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will >> be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe >> I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. >> >> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with >> a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a >> lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard >> that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will >> also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in >> it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director and there great. >> Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director! >> >> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so >> I don't know how expensive it is yet? >> >> Wayne E >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> >> To: "RV10" >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM >> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen >> >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >>> though, function before beauty. >>> >>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >>> >>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >>> >>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >>> >>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >>> SL-30/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-40 >>> GNS-480/SL-30 >>> SL-30/SL-30 >>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. >>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't >>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >>> want to do WAAS approaches. >>> >>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>> Current project: Fuselage >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Oops, after I wrote this reply, I realized this was not to the list. I see that everything is list appropriate though, so I'll reply to the list too....Okey doke. Richard, Your layout is nice and clean too. Very nice if you're doing 2 panels. One thing, people.... You should realize something...that Richard here mentions in his next post. The 2 screen systems are nice, but one panel per side will not give you good viewing for your overhead birdseye view map page, (also the HSI page), simultaneously with your attitude display. I do know that you can split-screen things, but to me, this is kind of degrading your overall "QOV". (for you techies, like "QOS" in networking...quality of Viewing") :) That's actually the #1 reason I went with 3 displays. I want the attitude and HSI/Map screen to be easily visible and close to me....on my side or at worst in the middle. You can also put a toggle on your stick to flip that center screen from MAP to EIS, so during critical stages of flight you can have your engine gauges. The 3rd screen, to me, isn't the middle one....it's the RIGHT side one. I wanted that screen so that I could A) have my engine instruments up all the time on normal flights. B) give my co-pilot the controls and they'd have a full set of instruments. C) give my co-pilot the map and let them monitor progress. D) Fly from the right seat when I want to let someone else fly my plane..... (Yes, I may actually be fearless enough some day to let someone else fly my plane. ;) ) Richard's points about the DigiFlight IIVSVG are accurate indeed also. If you get these nice EFIS's, you won't need more. Great panel, Richard! Oh, and like Richard says in his reply...."the panel is the place on the airplane where we can really express our personal likes and dislikes so to each his own." I COMPLETELY agree...so please, nobody think I'm thinking everyone should do like me. I think we should discuss, and you should decide what you want/need/prefer. On to the next reply... Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Richard Sipp wrote: > Tim: > > A few months back I reached the same conclusion with the same logic. > > When I first started the project I was planning the Chelton System AND > GPS etc, etc,. That was cost prohibitive so started planning around the > GRT. > > At S&F this year it finally dawned on me that external GPS and most > other stuff like an MX 20 were redundant when added to the Chelton. > > I am now settled on a 2 screen Chelton, SL 30, SL 40, back up > instruments including TruTrak's ADI. After talking to Chuck at TruTrak > I also downgraded from a Sorcerer to the DigiFlight IIVSGV. Chuck said > the DigiFlight was designed with sophisticated EFIS in mind where the > EFIS would control the autopilot. The Sorcerer or DFC Series has the > functionality built in to the autopilot. Another couple of $M savings > based on using Chelton. Bottom line with the Chelton you don't need a > lot of other stuff. I plan on just two screens and will probably have > the engine display on the MFD for takeoff and periodic cruise checks. > The GRT EIS display will be mounted behind the panel to get rid of the > big bezel with the display visible through screen size openings. > > Here is a picture of one recent version. I think I could do the panel > myself, but will most likely have it done in the interest of time. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > To: "RV10" > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:26 PM > Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > >> Hey guys, >> >> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >> though, function before beauty. >> >> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >> >> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >> >> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >> >> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >> SL-30/SL-40 >> GNS-480/SL-40 >> GNS-480/SL-30 >> SL-30/SL-30 >> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. >> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't >> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >> want to do WAAS approaches. >> >> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >> >> Tim >> >> -- >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> Current project: Fuselage >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 26, 2005
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to the point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100% electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed and altitude if everything else fails. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Hey guys, I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though, function before beauty. I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches. So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
<42967D6E.6000104(at)MyRV10.com> <000701c56262$8c823df0$6401a8c0@MainOffice> Last question first... I'm getting my Chelton stuff from Stein and SteinAir. He went above and beyond in giving me the scoop on the Cheltons, and referring me to the right guy at Direct 2 Avionics with my additional questions. He really helped me get a good understanding of what it was I was buying, and where I would come up short or be way overboard. He won't try to sell you something you don't need...he wants you to be 100% happy with every choice, and he's real detail oriented in his panel thinking. There is also one very cool thing about getting everything from him. His shop is only 100 miles away or so, and since my panel is going to be a pretty cool panel, he wants to use it for an OSH panel to display. That really benefits me, because I will be able to go there and assist in the panel building to make sure we get it done, and done right, by OSH. It'll be on display, so if you're at OSH, check it out....but, DON'T TOUCH.... (Just kidding) :) Another thing that really adds to the trust factor is that if there are items that he can't sell you at a real great price (some Garmin stuff comes to mind), he'll be more than happy to point you to Stark Avionics or other suppliers so that you can save the money. Some things are just hard to compete on, and he'd rather see you 100% happy with each item, than make the tiny profit some items have. As for the costs of them building your panel, he charges a straight $5000 to do a panel. That also includes many of the "incidentals" so you're not itemized and paying for every switch, jack, wire, and connector... and that stuff actually does add up. I agree Wayne...I think the 430 would be great when it has WAAS. The problem is just that all these vendors tend to promise vaporware... they say "soon", but it's not at all soon. I feel bad for these who have technical problems, but...it's still disturbing. Right now I'm *Still* waiting for the Gretz Pitot to come out. It was going to be a "couple weeks" back last summer/fall. It was the same thing this January. I also heard others heard the same thing over a year ago. Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn into a great radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard equipment....as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They don't have it today though, so it's really not much of an option for me. Rob....that's the only problem I have with the EIS integration your're planning. I love your products...they're fantastic, and I dare say you have the sweetest EIS out there. But, at the particular point in time, I'm ready to actually buy and build...otherwise I'd be investigating. Everyone who buys after OSH though, check out this integration from Rob. I haven't seen it myself, but he does great stuff. If you don't get a GRT multi-screen or Chelton multi-screen system, his EIS is hands down the best right now. As for the CDI indicator (ILS head), I haven't heard that, myself, about needing it to be IFR legal. I wonder if that would still be true even if you have multi-screens in your EFIS....if it's even actually true right now. I'll have to call Chelton (Direct 2 Avionics) and ask that one. I'm betting it's just fine to go without. With the chelton's, each screen is independent and can be shut off without killing the system. If you lose your AHRS, you can still function on GPS and air data, actually. If you lose your GPS, you can still function on the AHRS and air data. So with 3 screens it REALLY takes a lot to get to the point where things don't function. I'll have to check, but it may even be true that you can lose the Chelton GPS and AHRS, and still display-only the NAV on the screen as an HSI. That would be cool if it would still do that. Sorry that this is another long-winded post guys, but there's so much info to share...I'd rather have some people give up and hit delete than have everyone have to learn every detail on their own. These lists are very educational for me too, so when I learn, I pass it on. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Wayne Edgerton wrote: > > Hi Tim, > > My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them > when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade > cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of > the year and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000. > > The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun > when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal > is to have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS > unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if > that's true. > > Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why? > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > >> >> Hey Wayne, >> >> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say >> you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :) >> Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it! >> >> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but >> that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) >> >> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. >> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable >> at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if >> I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single >> airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's >> one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for >> a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a >> perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and >> it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232 >> to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you >> have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out, >> I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS >> 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS >> in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more >> WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower >> cost. >> >> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read >> up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing >> approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample >> picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person, >> with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly >> perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there >> is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see >> adding an external CDI. >> >> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else >> able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from >> TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI >> will be just the ticket for me. >> >> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but >> they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get >> to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really >> depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be >> cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're >> one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But, >> there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the >> budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not >> "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;) >> Tim >> >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> >> >> Wayne Edgerton wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Tim, >>> >>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will >>> end up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can >>> program in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is >>> going out of limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the >>> secondary screen when that happens. Also you have the analog read out >>> gauge that I think I see on your panel. What are you thinking for >>> your transponder? I think I will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be >>> able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I also will use the Garmin480 >>> because of the WAAS approaches. >>> >>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up >>> with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They >>> give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. >>> I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude >>> indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I >>> might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight >>> director and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight >>> director! >>> >>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass >>> Panel, so I don't know how expensive it is yet? >>> >>> Wayne E >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> >>> To: "RV10" >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM >>> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen >>> >>> >>>> Hey guys, >>>> >>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided >>>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all >>>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you >>>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast. >>>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, >>>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen >>>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak >>>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, >>>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list. >>>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go >>>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel >>>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use >>>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking >>>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me >>>> though, function before beauty. >>>> >>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for >>>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their >>>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they >>>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping. >>>> >>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with >>>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it >>>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured. >>>> >>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come >>>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to >>>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features >>>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon. >>>> >>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use: >>>> SL-30/SL-40 >>>> GNS-480/SL-40 >>>> GNS-480/SL-30 >>>> SL-30/SL-30 >>>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. >>>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 >>>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers >>>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is >>>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a >>>> GNS-480. >>>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 >>>> doesn't >>>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other >>>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS >>>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS >>>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the >>>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an >>>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd >>>> want to do WAAS approaches. >>>> >>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated. >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>>> Current project: Fuselage >>>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2005
From: Larry <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
I agree on not being 100% depended on electrical instruments. I am thinking that airspeed, turn and bank, vertical speed combined with my hand held GPS and Com would give me all the backup I need. The AI would be nice, but then it is another electrical component. Larry RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > I also would like to replace the analog gauges with a single unit > but I'm still not to the point where I feel comfortable being in hard > IFR with a 100% electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can > revert to airspeed and altitude if everything else fails. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
VERY good point...Makes a LOT of sense to me. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > I don't believe that requirement regarding a second nav display head. > Theoretically, you don't need any ILS display head - you'd just be > limited to non-precision approaches. Same thing if your EFIS goes > Tango Uniform, you could still do a non-precision GPS approach using > the CDI display on the GPS unit itself. > > There are 1000+ Cirrus aircraft flying with the Avidyne Entegra PFD > as their sole display of horizontal and vertical deviation. Of > course, that's a certified EFIS, but the principle is the same . . . > > TDT 40025 > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Wayne > Edgerton Sent: Thu 5/26/2005 10:19 PM To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > > > > > Hi Tim, > > My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them > when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the > upgrade cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by > the end of the year and if I remember correctly they said it would > cost about $1000. > > The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at > Sun-N-Fun when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could > be IFR legal is to have a backup device for the approach in case the > primary EFIS unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have > to verify if that's true. > > Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why? > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> To: > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > > >> >> Hey Wayne, >> >> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you >> say you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I >> "need" it. :) Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, >> I just WANT it! >> >> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but >> that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :) >> >> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at. >> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS >> capable at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some >> point if I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't >> one single airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I >> guess that's one point where I might be happier just leaving the >> radio out for a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is >> probably not a perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from >> the chelton, and it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 >> through an RS232 to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more >> $$$) Actually, you have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by >> leaving the 480 out, I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself >> market time. The GNS 430 might be more friendly at that point, >> because they'll have WAAS in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 >> years, there will be many more WAAS enabled items that could go in >> there, and possibly at a lower cost. >> >> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you >> read up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for >> doing approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a >> sample picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument >> rated person, with the HITS and without. The one with is very >> smooth and nearly perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular >> needles when there is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you >> have one, I can see adding an external CDI. >> >> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone >> else able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to >> from TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think >> that ADI will be just the ticket for me. >> >> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your >> answers, but they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know >> that they'll get to you, but don't know how quick. As for the >> cost, it'll really depend on exactly the equipment you want. >> Figure that it won't be cheap, but it'll be very high quality you >> get for the money. If you're one of those tight-budget guys, it's >> probably gonna be tough. But, there are plenty of us -10 builders >> who worry a little less about the budget if it means getting what >> they want.....and that's "want", not "need". I want I want I want >> that 3 screen Chelton. ;) Tim >> >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> >> >> Wayne Edgerton wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Tim, >>> >>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I >>> will end up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since >>> you can program in engine parameters and it will warn you if >>> something is going out of limits and I believe you can have it >>> pop up on the secondary screen when that happens. Also you have >>> the analog read out gauge that I think I see on your panel. What >>> are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will be using >>> the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I >>> also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches. >>> >>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end >>> up with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary >>> gauges. They give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south >>> for some reason. I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the >>> remote attitude indicator that will also have a Flight Director >>> in it. If they do I might be interested in it. I've flown quite a >>> bit with a flight director and there great. Obviously the Chelton >>> is one big flight director! >>> >>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass >>> Panel, so I don't know how expensive it is yet? >>> >>> Wayne E >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> >>> To: "RV10" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 >>> 5:26 PM Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hey guys, >>>> >>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I >>>> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was >>>> that with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, >>>> and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get >>>> real complicated real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, >>>> I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by the way, has a >>>> deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system >>>> and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot, >>>> you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you >>>> may actually save money depending on your equipment list. My >>>> panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not >>>> go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this >>>> panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that >>>> cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only >>>> thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and >>>> console. For me though, function before beauty. >>>> >>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could >>>> ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested >>>> in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch >>>> the video they have online. The system is awesome, even >>>> including 3D terrain mapping. >>>> >>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out >>>> with TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but >>>> Chelton has it working with TruTrak, so it really does get to >>>> be full featured. >>>> >>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will >>>> come through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit >>>> too much to get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be >>>> trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel section >>>> regarding this equipment soon. >>>> >>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want >>>> to use: SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any >>>> comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The >>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or >>>> SL-40. So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that >>>> one. The GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, >>>> because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning, and the >>>> approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton >>>> all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. Other than a 2nd >>>> GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add >>>> much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons >>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all >>>> other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal >>>> WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or >>>> FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction >>>> I've been given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit >>>> system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS >>>> added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches. >>>> >>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline >>>> appreciated. >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ==================================== > ==================================== > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2005
From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?)
Tim, I hear this of a lot of pilots in regards to WAAS. Having flow a lot of IFR on the East coast behind the Garmin 430, I haven't found one instance where having WAAS would have changed (improved) any of my flights. I've had a 430 for about 5 years now and have had the software updated a few times providing increased functionality. While Garmin has been extremely late in delivering WAAS, I think they realize that delivery of WAAS now won't change much for most pilots in the short term. They thus put their priorities elsewhere. I have more confidence in Garmin delivering WAAS than some of the other vendors. The FAA has committed to 300 new WAAS approaches per year. These will be WAAS LPV approaches to runways that already have at least a CAT I ILS. This is because a WAAS approach requires runway lighting similar to that for an ILS. All current WAAS LPV are to runways that also have ILS. WAAS LNAV/VNAV approaches typically have minimums higher (visibility -due to lack of runway lighting) than LNAV-only minimums so the operational advantage of WAAS is unclear. I think it will be a few years before WAAS becomes a must have for me. As of a few months ago, the Garmin 480 now gives "advisory" vertical guidance on some LNAV-only approaches. This should be used with caution and full understanding of the approach and its potential pitfalls. >Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn into a great >radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard equipment. >...as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They don't have >it today though, so it's really not much of an option for me. >. >. >Tim William #40237 http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 27, 2005
Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 27, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Okay, you want glass, I'll give you glass . . . P.S. The left hand glass is supposed to be an Avidyne Entegra PFD. P.P.S. The GX60 and SL30 are below in a center stack but couldn't get them in on epanelbuilder. P.P.P.S. The backup ADI is a TruTrak. P.P.P.P.S. MP3 player goes on right side below transponder . . . -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?)
Heya William. Agreed, I understand that WAAS will not give much to me at all right now. I have NO airports with WAAS approaches that I currently visit...and have never flown into one where it was offered. I think though, that since Garmin bought UPS that they put much less time criticality into the WAAS upgrade project. Now they have the 480, so they work less hard to get the 430 up to snuff. So, I totally agree that it's a few years before WAAS is a MUST HAVE. In fact, the Chelton WILL do WAAS approaches, just not legally. So, if I really wanted to be illegal, I could still fly the approach without a separate WAAS receiver. That's why I was looking at doing the FreeFlight remote GPS in the future, and not the 480. The Freeflight would not mean cutting my panel later, and would give legal WAAS to me. At present though, unless it's going to give me WAAS, NONE of those expensive radios will add good function for me to the Chelton that an SL-30 couldn't do. I could use a handheld GPS as a backup if wanted, and spend a hell of a lot less money. Going with a 430 in my brand new panel though, wouldn't be a good idea. It would still need to be a PAID FOR upgrade later to get WAAS, it wouldn't auto-tune from the chelton, gives no functionality to me today that I don't already have....it's a great radio, but expensive enough that if you spend that much, you may as well spend the $8500 and get the 480 and get the WAAS overwith. Tim William Curtis wrote: > Tim, > > I hear this of a lot of pilots in regards to WAAS. Having flow a lot of > IFR on the East coast behind the Garmin 430, I haven't found one > instance where having WAAS would have changed (improved) any of my > flights. I've had a 430 for about 5 years now and have had the software > updated a few times providing increased functionality. > > While Garmin has been extremely late in delivering WAAS, I think they > realize that delivery of WAAS now won't change much for most pilots in > the short term. They thus put their priorities elsewhere. I have more > confidence in Garmin delivering WAAS than some of the other vendors. > > The FAA has committed to 300 new WAAS approaches per year. These will be > WAAS LPV approaches to runways that already have at least a CAT I ILS. > This is because a WAAS approach requires runway lighting similar to that > for an ILS. All current WAAS LPV are to runways that also have ILS. WAAS > LNAV/VNAV approaches typically have minimums higher (visibility -due to > lack of runway lighting) than LNAV-only minimums so the operational > advantage of WAAS is unclear. I think it will be a few years before WAAS > becomes a must have for me. > > As of a few months ago, the Garmin 480 now gives "advisory" vertical > guidance on some LNAV-only approaches. This should be used with caution > and full understanding of the approach and its potential pitfalls. > > > >Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn into a great > >radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard equipment. > >...as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They don't have > >it today though, so it's really not much of an option for me. > >. > >. > >Tim > > William > #40237 > http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Kirkland" <jskirkland(at)webpipe.net>
Subject: Rudder Wiring
Date: May 27, 2005
Does anyone have a good pic showing how to run the tail position light / strobe wiring from the rudder, through the VS spar, and into the tailcone. There's a lot of obstacles, tiedown bracket, hinges, rudder horn, etc. Would like to see a good routing for this. John Kirkland #40333 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: Picture of -10 rudder wiring
Date: May 27, 2005
John, Here's a picture I took at SnF of -10 number two at Vans. I had the same question. They ran the wires just under the lower most hinge bracket in the VS spar. I think this also goes through the tiedown bracket flange. Hope it's clear enough for you. John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly?
Date: May 27, 2005
Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? The last thing on his site says he is waiting for the DAR and that was back on May 7th. Ray Doerr 40250 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly?
Date: May 27, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
He emailed me and said that he didn't get the registration sent in. You can't even have a DAR look a the plane until you have the white registration card in hand. He was also going out of town for work. I sounded like maybe 3 weeks still. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RV10-List: Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? --> Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? The last thing on his site says he is waiting for the DAR and that was back on May 7th. Ray Doerr 40250 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
Date: May 27, 2005
From: "Droopy Erickson" <Droopy(at)ericksonjc.com>
Tim, Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple years after you...). GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and terminal approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. To do that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal GPS. Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're getting, or do you know something I don't? Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how much, if any tail wag this thing has...) EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've collected!! John #40208 Smelly fuel tanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 27, 2005
Wow! For wanting to stay away from the expensive instruments like the big EFISes, that radio stack sure is expensive with the dual 430's..and a long way away from the pilot. We wanted to focus on getting the important instruments as close to the pilot as possible and were on a budget (already had the 430). The Dynon is not as fancy or as big as those GRT's or Chelton's, but for the panel on a budget, a single 430 and the Dynon systems with a Trutrak ADI as a backup as well as a couple of basic backups like the Airspeed and Altimeter we think is a great way to get good IFR without having too much to look at or keep track of. Notice that the radio stack is left of the center rib. I agree that this is a bad design, but with this layout we don't have to worry about it. We actually removed most of the meat of the bulkhead behind the panel and reinforced it so we have plenty of room back there. We trimmed two of the ribs reaching from there to the panel as well (not the center one) and reinforced them. I can send pictures if anybody is interested. Everything that the pilot will be needing while flying IFR is right there. The scan will be Dynon EFIS - Garmin 430 - Dynon EFIS - Nav Display - Dynon EFIS (with a check to the EMS from time to time to make sure there are no "alarms", which I understand can be connected into the audio panel as well for audio alarms. We will have a handheld GPS and probably a handheld radio as a backup if the power fails. We have backup batteries for the ADI and the Dynon's, so if the alternator fails, we will be able to use them to get to and airport at least, or to finish the flight to our destination with the handheld radio and GPS. You will notice the lack of switches and breakers. We made an aluminum console from the panel down to the tunnel to hold all of that. We just came out of the paint shop (wings get done tomorrow) and got the engine mounted today. Most of the fuel and oil lines are hooked up. Next week we install wings and tail and work on the baffles and cowling and start wiring the fuse. Can't wait to see this bird in the air. Now that we are done with the stinkin' fiberglass work, we are going to be seeing regular progress towards our goal of flying on June 21st. I need to get some pictures posted, but have been putting all of my time into the plane. #40241 Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
Droopy, I'll address these as best I can. GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't know how nice it would be...or necessary. EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate into the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info on true capabilities, and keep it current. From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some answers yet next week. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Droopy Erickson wrote: > Tim, > > Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First > off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple > years after you...). > > GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the > previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and terminal > approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. To do > that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal GPS. > Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS > receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're > getting, or do you know something I don't? > > Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as > my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical > system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot > gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The > only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the > Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS > approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the > Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the > Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer > might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how > much, if any tail wag this thing has...) > > EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine > display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages > into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we > lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your > panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? > > Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've collected!! > > John > #40208 Smelly fuel tanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Date: May 27, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Jesse: How about a pre-view of your paint design? TDT ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Wow! For wanting to stay away from the expensive instruments like the big EFISes, that radio stack sure is expensive with the dual 430's....and a long way away from the pilot. We wanted to focus on getting the important instruments as close to the pilot as possible and were on a budget (already had the 430). The Dynon is not as fancy or as big as those GRT's or Chelton's, but for the panel on a budget, a single 430 and the Dynon systems with a Trutrak ADI as a backup as well as a couple of basic backups like the Airspeed and Altimeter we think is a great way to get good IFR without having too much to look at or keep track of. Notice that the radio stack is left of the center rib. I agree that this is a bad design, but with this layout we don't have to worry about it. We actually removed most of the meat of the bulkhead behind the panel and reinforced it so we have plenty of room back there. We trimmed two of the ribs reaching from there to the panel as well (not the center one) and reinforced them. I can send pictures if anybody is interested. Everything that the pilot will be needing while flying IFR is right there. The scan will be Dynon EFIS - Garmin 430 - Dynon EFIS - Nav Display - Dynon EFIS (with a check to the EMS from time to time to make sure there are no "alarms", which I understand can be connected into the audio panel as well for audio alarms. We will have a handheld GPS and probably a handheld radio as a backup if the power fails. We have backup batteries for the ADI and the Dynon's, so if the alternator fails, we will be able to use them to get to and airport at least, or to finish the flight to our destination with the handheld radio and GPS. You will notice the lack of switches and breakers. We made an aluminum console from the panel down to the tunnel to hold all of that. We just came out of the paint shop (wings get done tomorrow) and got the engine mounted today. Most of the fuel and oil lines are hooked up. Next week we install wings and tail and work on the baffles and cowling and start wiring the fuse. Can't wait to see this bird in the air. Now that we are done with the stinkin' fiberglass work, we are going to be seeing regular progress towards our goal of flying on June 21st. I need to get some pictures posted, but have been putting all of my time into the plane. #40241 Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Gas Strut Bracket
Date: May 28, 2005
products. My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude into the window about 1/4"; or it would be too low where a good portion of the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter matches the drawings best. Anyone had an easier fit than this? Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Panel Design
Date: May 28, 2005
As long as we're talking about panel design (and you thought this thread was dead :) what about switch and other component locations. Cockpit procedures and checklists in today's automated airplanes are built around memorized flow patterns. For each phase of flight; preflight, taxi, before takeoff, landing etc. each crew member, from memory, accomplishes an eye/hand trip around his portion of the cockpit moving switches and controls as necessary for that checklist. Then, when each pilot has completed the flow, the non-flying pilot reads the checklist items verifying that the proper items were accomplished. This application of memorized "flows" has been shown to result in fewer omissions than the older "read - respond" item by item checklist. Modern airplane cockpit controls are being arranged to facilitate these practices. If we are to accept this practice in our single pilot airplanes, we would arrange the system control switches in the order they would normally be used. Perhaps: bat master, alternator, ign., boost pump, start, avionics etc., etc, pitot heat, landing lights. Arranging the switches in this way you work down the row as the flight progresses. For normal operations all normal switches should end up pointing in the same direction. Another application of the practice places critical or emergency use only switches in a schematic diagram of the system or near the component. Again, for us, this might be locating the "E" bus alternate feed switch next to that bus's row of circuit breakers or, the autopilot power switch next to the autopilot control head. For two pilot professional crews every flight critical action is backed up by both pilots; I.E. ATC issues new altitude clearance, the non-flying pilot sets the new altitude in the altitude selector, flying pilot points to setting, verbally confirms number, and only then switches the autopilot to the climb mode, finally the non-flying pilot responds to ATC leaving xxxx for xxxx. Approaching the assigned altitude flying pilot says something like "approaching xxxx" non-flying pilot acknowledges, "one to go". Again, for our single pilot airplanes, silly as it may sound, we should talk to ourselves as if we were two pilots, enter a new altitude or minimums and then confirm the action either to ATC or ourselves. The key ingredient in this method of operation is a well thought sequence of procedures applied the same way consistently to each phase of the flight. It works equally well in a 747, F16, J3 cub, or RV10. To many this all may seem like a too long statement of the obvious or to others taking all the fun out of flying. I promise you, however, when perfected in a cockpit you designed this approach to flying will give you a great sense of accomplishment. If all else fails, remember the old fighter pilot's last resort checklist, "push all the shiny switches forward, don't touch any rusty ones." With apologies to Mat and the list for excessive band width used, Dick Sipp RV4 N250DS RV10 #40065 N110DV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
<4297D085.9010702(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
Date: May 28, 2005
Tim, Thanks for sharing your research on the panel info. I've been doing research also and it helps a lot to see what others have found out. In reference to the Tru Trak autopilot. I talked in length to the people at Tru Trak while at Sun-N-Fun about the Digiflight and Sorcerer. I don't believe that the yaw damper feature would be necessary with a 10, nor did they. And the yaw damper is an additional option on the Sorcerer. One plane where the yaw damper is badly needed is the V Tailed Bonanza. When you set in the back seat of one of those in wind it tends to sway back and forth and you usually need a yaw damper or airsick bags for the back seats passengers, one of the two :>} I may not have understood correctly what the people from Tru Trak told me, but as I understood Digiflight will not intercept the ILS and follow the glideslope. GRT, I talked to them a bunch also, was adding the feature to their unit to be able to capture the ILS information and control the Digiflight and thus allow an ILS to be flown, but not necessarily legal. I thought I understood that the Chelton isn't be able to do this. GRT I think I understood was also going to add the ability to control altitude pre select using the Digiflight I'm also going with Chelton, I believe, and because of that am thinking of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer will also allow the altitude pre select feature. Tim are you saying that the Chelton controls the Digiflight for ILS approaches and altitude pre select? The people at Chelton I thought told me there unit didn't do that? I really like the altitude pre select function. It unloads a critical feature when you get into the really heavy IFR when ascending or descending to assigned altitudes. I have to be careful here your starting to convince me I need the 3rd Chelton screen, scary :>} I also want to make it so the person riding right seat can participate in the flight, such as my wife or my pilot friends. This will allow them to not feel so isolated from the flight and also can be a second pair of hands and eyes. Wayne E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS > > Droopy, > > I'll address these as best I can. > > GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the > TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be > legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my > best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to > back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll > try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. > > Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great > stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple > the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, > because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the > GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't > get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... > which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other > list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of > the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. > I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't > know how nice it would be...or necessary. > > EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is > spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate into > the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS > functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on > some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went > that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on > the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also > a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or > any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly > with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely > not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone > else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all > the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining > some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, > I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. > I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the > left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the > situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. > > I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth > on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that > is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME > in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some > of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things > integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every > concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm > finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not > just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite > their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will > improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info > on true capabilities, and keep it current. > > From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up > so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, > there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. > Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have > functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they > enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. > The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on > to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. > > > Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll > list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there > will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. > Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some > answers yet next week. > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Droopy Erickson wrote: >> Tim, >> Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First >> off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple >> years after you...). GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and >> paste from the previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and >> terminal approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. >> To do that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal >> GPS. Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS >> receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're >> getting, or do you know something I don't? >> Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as >> my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical >> system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot >> gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The >> only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the >> Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS >> approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the >> Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the >> Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer >> might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how >> much, if any tail wag this thing has...) >> EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine >> display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages >> into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we >> lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your >> panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? >> Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've >> collected!! >> John >> #40208 Smelly fuel tanks > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: Gas Strut Bracket
Date: May 28, 2005
I don't know what revision of the plans you have, but the piece you make to help position the strut bracket on the door is supposed to be just under 8", not just under 9". We just discovered that yesterday. If your plans say 8+", take off one inch. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Subject: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude into the window about 1/4"; or it would be too low where a good portion of the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter matches the drawings best. Anyone had an easier fit than this? Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
Date: May 28, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Regarding a third screen so the right seat passenger has something to look at: this plane is not that big! It shouldn't be a problem for a right-seater to see any EFIS/MFD things in the center or even left side. Maybe sub-optimal for IFR flying if they need look across, but how many right-seaters will be doing that? TDT ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Wayne Edgerton Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS Tim, Thanks for sharing your research on the panel info. I've been doing research also and it helps a lot to see what others have found out. In reference to the Tru Trak autopilot. I talked in length to the people at Tru Trak while at Sun-N-Fun about the Digiflight and Sorcerer. I don't believe that the yaw damper feature would be necessary with a 10, nor did they. And the yaw damper is an additional option on the Sorcerer. One plane where the yaw damper is badly needed is the V Tailed Bonanza. When you set in the back seat of one of those in wind it tends to sway back and forth and you usually need a yaw damper or airsick bags for the back seats passengers, one of the two :>} I may not have understood correctly what the people from Tru Trak told me, but as I understood Digiflight will not intercept the ILS and follow the glideslope. GRT, I talked to them a bunch also, was adding the feature to their unit to be able to capture the ILS information and control the Digiflight and thus allow an ILS to be flown, but not necessarily legal. I thought I understood that the Chelton isn't be able to do this. GRT I think I understood was also going to add the ability to control altitude pre select using the Digiflight I'm also going with Chelton, I believe, and because of that am thinking of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer will also allow the altitude pre select feature. Tim are you saying that the Chelton controls the Digiflight for ILS approaches and altitude pre select? The people at Chelton I thought told me there unit didn't do that? I really like the altitude pre select function. It unloads a critical feature when you get into the really heavy IFR when ascending or descending to assigned altitudes. I have to be careful here your starting to convince me I need the 3rd Chelton screen, scary :>} I also want to make it so the person riding right seat can participate in the flight, such as my wife or my pilot friends. This will allow them to not feel so isolated from the flight and also can be a second pair of hands and eyes. Wayne E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS > > Droopy, > > I'll address these as best I can. > > GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the > TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be > legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my > best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to > back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll > try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. > > Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great > stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple > the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, > because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the > GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't > get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... > which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other > list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of > the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. > I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't > know how nice it would be...or necessary. > > EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is > spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate into > the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS > functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on > some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went > that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on > the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also > a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or > any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly > with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely > not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone > else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all > the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining > some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, > I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. > I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the > left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the > situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. > > I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth > on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that > is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME > in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some > of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things > integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every > concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm > finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not > just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite > their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will > improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info > on true capabilities, and keep it current. > > From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up > so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, > there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. > Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have > functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they > enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. > The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on > to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. > > > Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll > list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there > will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. > Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some > answers yet next week. > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Droopy Erickson wrote: >> Tim, >> Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First >> off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple >> years after you...). GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and >> paste from the previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and >> terminal approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. >> To do that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal >> GPS. Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS >> receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're >> getting, or do you know something I don't? >> Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as >> my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical >> system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot >> gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The >> only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the >> Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS >> approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the >> Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the >> Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer >> might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how >> much, if any tail wag this thing has...) >> EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine >> display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages >> into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we >> lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your >> panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? >> Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've >> collected!! >> John >> #40208 Smelly fuel tanks > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
<4297D085.9010702(at)MyRV10.com> <001701c5637f$c92e5360$6401a8c0@MainOffice> Wayne, From the conflicting info we're getting, I'm thinking it best if I verify these features...with comments from multiple sources, and ensure that we have a 100% sure answer to them all. I'll do this after the holiday and report back. As for the Non-TSO issue regarding flying an approach with a chelton... we're in experimentals, so perhaps many of the things that would be true in a Cessna do not apply...but an airline pilot pal of mine came over last night and asked me this.... "Do you need to use a TSO'd radio to enter class B airspace?" Of course not...you could use a handheld to go pretty much anywhere you wanted, right?. So, I will try to find out how much TSO staus matters to our situation. I currently am not highly knowledgeable about this, just passing on what vendors are saying. I do seem to remember in the past though reading many things about TSO status and that most of this stuff just doesn't apply in the homebuilt arena. If so, how could those with Dynon's, GRT's, BMA's, or most of the equipment use that equipment for IFR use? None of that stuff has any certifications. Yeah, your Nav/Com does, but if your primary instruments don't, then what good is that? At least the Chelton Sport system is running the same software as a real-live approved system that goes into certified aircraft...so if anything has a chance of being aproved, that would be one. I'll find out more though to cut down on the speculation. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Wayne Edgerton wrote: > > Tim, > > Thanks for sharing your research on the panel info. I've been doing > research also and it helps a lot to see what others have found out. > > In reference to the Tru Trak autopilot. I talked in length to the people > at Tru Trak while at Sun-N-Fun about the Digiflight and Sorcerer. I > don't believe that the yaw damper feature would be necessary with a 10, > nor did they. And the yaw damper is an additional option on the > Sorcerer. One plane where the yaw damper is badly needed is the V Tailed > Bonanza. When you set in the back seat of one of those in wind it tends > to sway back and forth and you usually need a yaw damper or airsick bags > for the back seats passengers, one of the two :>} > > I may not have understood correctly what the people from Tru Trak told > me, but as I understood Digiflight will not intercept the ILS and follow > the glideslope. GRT, I talked to them a bunch also, was adding the > feature to their unit to be able to capture the ILS information and > control the Digiflight and thus allow an ILS to be flown, but not > necessarily legal. I thought I understood that the Chelton isn't be able > to do this. GRT I think I understood was also going to add the ability > to control altitude pre select using the Digiflight > > I'm also going with Chelton, I believe, and because of that am thinking > of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer will also allow the altitude pre select > feature. Tim are you saying that the Chelton controls the Digiflight for > ILS approaches and altitude pre select? The people at Chelton I thought > told me there unit didn't do that? I really like the altitude pre select > function. It unloads a critical feature when you get into the really > heavy IFR when ascending or descending to assigned altitudes. > > I have to be careful here your starting to convince me I need the 3rd > Chelton screen, scary :>} I also want to make it so the person riding > right seat can participate in the flight, such as my wife or my pilot > friends. This will allow them to not feel so isolated from the flight > and also can be a second pair of hands and eyes. > > Wayne E > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > To: > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS > > >> >> Droopy, >> >> I'll address these as best I can. >> >> GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the >> TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be >> legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my >> best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to >> back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll >> try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. >> >> Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great >> stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple >> the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, >> because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the >> GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't >> get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... >> which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other >> list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of >> the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. >> I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't >> know how nice it would be...or necessary. >> >> EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is >> spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate >> into the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS >> functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on >> some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went >> that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on >> the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also >> a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or >> any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly >> with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely >> not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone >> else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all >> the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining >> some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, >> I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. >> I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the >> left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the >> situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. >> >> I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth >> on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that >> is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME >> in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some >> of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things >> integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every >> concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm >> finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not >> just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite >> their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will >> improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info >> on true capabilities, and keep it current. >> >> From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up >> so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, >> there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. >> Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have >> functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they >> enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. >> The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on >> to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. >> >> >> Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll >> list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there >> will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. >> Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some >> answers yet next week. >> >> Tim >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> >> >> Droopy Erickson wrote: >> >>> Tim, >>> Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. >>> First off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a >>> couple years after you...). GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy >>> to cut and paste from the previous messages) that you couple legally >>> fly enroute and terminal approaches with the Chelton system, just not >>> WAAS approaches. To do that, you have to meet the TSO standards for >>> enroute and terminal GPS. Looking through the Chelton literature, it >>> looks like a TSOd GPS receiver was only an option on the Pro system. >>> Is this what you're getting, or do you know something I don't? >>> Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon >>> as my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate >>> electrical system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel >>> the autopilot gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane >>> top-side up. The only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the >>> Sorcerer vice the Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does >>> not track ILS approaches. My question, however, is whether you've >>> been told the Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to >>> them, then drive the Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other >>> reason for the Sorcerer might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask >>> Randy as things progress how much, if any tail wag this thing has...) >>> EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine >>> display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist >>> pages into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton >>> functionality we lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on >>> the left side of your panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? >>> Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've >>> collected!! >>> John >>> #40208 Smelly fuel tanks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LessDragProd(at)AOL.COM
Date: May 28, 2005
Subject: RV-10 MT Propeller group buy
Hi All, If you would like to be included in the present RV-10 MT Propeller group buy, please let email me directly. _lessdragprod(at)aol.com_ (mailto:lessdragprod(at)aol.com) This is for the 3 blade MTV-12-B/193-53 propeller and spinner assembly. Delivery would be around mid-August. Typically, the blades are painted dull gray with gloss white tips. The spinner is painted white. The most common delivery choice has been assembled to the closest international airport. If you are not ready to buy your MT Propeller at this time, I would appreciate an estimate of when you feel you will be ready to buy, so I can plan for the next group buy. This will help the other propeller customers determine if they can wait for the next group buy. Regards, Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
Subject: Re: RV-10 MT Propeller group buy
Date: May 28, 2005
Hi Jim, As I discussed with you on the phone I've had several things that has set back my building. An accident with my hand that shut me down for 3 months and our daughter who's in England sickness. I'm leaving for England on 6/3 for a minimum stay of a month maybe longer. Based on our daughters condition I may spend quite some time in England over the next 6 months. That long story is to say I may not be ready for another 12 to 14 months. Once I'm back to building I plan to spent 5 to 6 days a weeks working on it, but I'm not an accomplished mechanic so I have to go forward with caution. Wayne Edgerton ----- Original Message ----- From: LessDragProd(at)aol.com To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 MT Propeller group buy Hi All, If you would like to be included in the present RV-10 MT Propeller group buy, please let email me directly. lessdragprod(at)aol.com This is for the 3 blade MTV-12-B/193-53 propeller and spinner assembly. Delivery would be around mid-August. Typically, the blades are painted dull gray with gloss white tips. The spinner is painted white. The most common delivery choice has been assembled to the closest international airport. If you are not ready to buy your MT Propeller at this time, I would appreciate an estimate of when you feel you will be ready to buy, so I can plan for the next group buy. This will help the other propeller customers determine if they can wait for the next group buy. Regards, Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2005
From: Phil Hall <phil(at)asibuildings.com>
Subject: Re: Gas Strut Bracket
Anh, Since you have the doors done can you (or anyone) set me straight on the outer door shell dimensions in figure 1, page 45-02. I am totally confused (easy to do). I would like to keep going and not have to wait till Tuesday. Phil 40122 928-636-1492 > > My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The > instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best > fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too > high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude > into the window about 1/4" or it would be too low where a good portion of > the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter > matches the drawings best. > > Anyone had an easier fit than this? > > Anh > #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS
Date: May 28, 2005
From: "Droopy Erickson" <Droopy(at)ericksonjc.com>
OK, I decided instead of just asking everyone, I'd do my own research and add to this forum... :) As far as TSO's. With an experimental category aircraft, you are not required to install TSO'd equipment (with some notable exceptions. A TSO'd transponder comes to mind). Afterall, it is an "experimental" aircraft. However, to operate in certain phases of flight, you are required to have TSO'd equipment. This is the case for GPS enroute, terminal, and WAAS IFR operations. For advisory guidance (read, not mandatory but you better be ready to defend yourself if something bad happens) read AC 90-94. For mandatory guidance look in chapter 1 of the AIM. Here's a link to the appropriate stuff. http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19 Here's the applicable quote for Non-WAAS GPS IFR operations that drives us to a minimum of TSO C129a standards. "1. Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires that: (a) GPS navigation equipment used must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent, and the installation must be done in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Supplemental Navigation System, or Advisory Circular AC 20-130A, Airworthiness Approval of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation Sensors, or equivalent. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a does not meet the requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or as a principal instrument flight reference. During IFR operations they may be considered only an aid to situational awareness. (b) Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring. Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost. " For WAAS operations, look in http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-20 and here's the appropriate quote driving us to TSO C145a (or TSO C146a for standalone (handheld?) equipment) standards. "c. General Requirements 1. WAAS avionics must be certified in accordance with Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C145A, Airborne Navigation Sensors Using the (GPS) Augmented by the Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS); or TSO-146A, Stand-Alone Airborne Navigation Equipment Using the Global Positioning System (GPS) Augmented by the Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS), and installed in accordance with Advisory Circular (AC) 20-130A, Airworthiness Approval of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation Sensors, or AC 20-138A, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Navigation System. " Anyway, I would be very curious to find out if the Chelton system meets TSO C129a or whether we need to have a IFR GPS to supplement it. As far as autopilots being "certified" to fly approaches, etc. I can find no regulatory material requiring any certification (even in standard categories) for an autopilot to fly an approach until you get into some of the special ILS CATs. Basically, you are the pilot flying the approach and are responsible for ensure that whatever equipment you are using to actuate the flight controls (stick, autopilot, etc) is putting the aircraft where it needs to be in regards to the navigational guidance for that approach. Hope this actually helps instead of just muddying the waters more. I just don't want to build a gorgeous panel and then find out that it's not quite good enough. I don't the FAA will buy the argument that some manufacturer "told me it was ok..." :) Take care, John #40208 Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS Wayne, From the conflicting info we're getting, I'm thinking it best if I verify these features...with comments from multiple sources, and ensure that we have a 100% sure answer to them all. I'll do this after the holiday and report back. As for the Non-TSO issue regarding flying an approach with a chelton... we're in experimentals, so perhaps many of the things that would be true in a Cessna do not apply...but an airline pilot pal of mine came over last night and asked me this.... "Do you need to use a TSO'd radio to enter class B airspace?" Of course not...you could use a handheld to go pretty much anywhere you wanted, right?. So, I will try to find out how much TSO staus matters to our situation. I currently am not highly knowledgeable about this, just passing on what vendors are saying. I do seem to remember in the past though reading many things about TSO status and that most of this stuff just doesn't apply in the homebuilt arena. If so, how could those with Dynon's, GRT's, BMA's, or most of the equipment use that equipment for IFR use? None of that stuff has any certifications. Yeah, your Nav/Com does, but if your primary instruments don't, then what good is that? At least the Chelton Sport system is running the same software as a real-live approved system that goes into certified aircraft...so if anything has a chance of being aproved, that would be one. I'll find out more though to cut down on the speculation. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Wayne Edgerton wrote: > --> > > Tim, > > Thanks for sharing your research on the panel info. I've been doing > research also and it helps a lot to see what others have found out. > > In reference to the Tru Trak autopilot. I talked in length to the > people at Tru Trak while at Sun-N-Fun about the Digiflight and > Sorcerer. I don't believe that the yaw damper feature would be > necessary with a 10, nor did they. And the yaw damper is an additional > option on the Sorcerer. One plane where the yaw damper is badly needed > is the V Tailed Bonanza. When you set in the back seat of one of those > in wind it tends to sway back and forth and you usually need a yaw > damper or airsick bags for the back seats passengers, one of the two > :>} > > I may not have understood correctly what the people from Tru Trak told > me, but as I understood Digiflight will not intercept the ILS and > follow the glideslope. GRT, I talked to them a bunch also, was adding > the feature to their unit to be able to capture the ILS information > and control the Digiflight and thus allow an ILS to be flown, but not > necessarily legal. I thought I understood that the Chelton isn't be > able to do this. GRT I think I understood was also going to add the > ability to control altitude pre select using the Digiflight > > I'm also going with Chelton, I believe, and because of that am > thinking of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer will also allow the altitude > pre select feature. Tim are you saying that the Chelton controls the > Digiflight for ILS approaches and altitude pre select? The people at > Chelton I thought told me there unit didn't do that? I really like the > altitude pre select function. It unloads a critical feature when you > get into the really heavy IFR when ascending or descending to assigned altitudes. > > I have to be careful here your starting to convince me I need the 3rd > Chelton screen, scary :>} I also want to make it so the person riding > right seat can participate in the flight, such as my wife or my pilot > friends. This will allow them to not feel so isolated from the flight > and also can be a second pair of hands and eyes. > > Wayne E > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > To: > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS > > >> >> Droopy, >> >> I'll address these as best I can. >> >> GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in >> the TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment >> will be legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I >> will do my best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something >> leagalese to back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To >> Avionics. I'll try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. >> >> Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great >> stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple the >> Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, >> because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the >> GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't >> get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... >> which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other >> list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of the >> DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. >> I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't >> know how nice it would be...or necessary. >> >> EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is >> spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate >> into the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS >> functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on >> some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went >> that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on >> the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also a >> separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or any >> of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly with my >> Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely not let >> him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone else... :) >> but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all >> the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining >> some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, I >> view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. >> I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the left 2 >> screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the >> situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. >> >> I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much >> bandwidth on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out >> there that is just not known. And, I think people assume these >> panels are EXTREME in cost...so they try to piece together lots of >> things they want. Some of the hardest info to come by is good, >> accurate info on how things integrate. I've been making this panel >> my life until I get every concept pinned down...and I just want to >> pass along the things I'm finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn >> about EVERYONE's system, not just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all >> a BMA fan anymore, despite their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we >> move forward, they will improve their integration too...so hopefully >> we can keep some good info on true capabilities, and keep it current. >> >> From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up >> so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, >> there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. >> Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have >> functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they >> enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. >> The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on >> to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. >> >> >> Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. >> I'll list known functionalities, with references if possible. That >> way there will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. >> Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some >> answers yet next week. >> >> Tim >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> >> >> Droopy Erickson wrote: >> >>> Tim, >>> Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. >>> First off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a >>> couple years after you...). GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy >>> to cut and paste from the previous messages) that you couple legally >>> fly enroute and terminal approaches with the Chelton system, just >>> not WAAS approaches. To do that, you have to meet the TSO standards >>> for enroute and terminal GPS. Looking through the Chelton >>> literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS receiver was only an option on the Pro system. >>> Is this what you're getting, or do you know something I don't? >>> Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a >>> Dynon as my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate >>> electrical system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel >>> the autopilot gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane >>> top-side up. The only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the >>> Sorcerer vice the Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does >>> not track ILS approaches. My question, however, is whether you've >>> been told the Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to >>> them, then drive the Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other >>> reason for the Sorcerer might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask >>> Randy as things progress how much, if any tail wag this thing >>> has...) >>> EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine >>> display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist >>> pages into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton >>> functionality we lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on >>> the left side of your panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? >>> Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've >>> collected!! >>> John >>> #40208 Smelly fuel tanks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Re: Gas Strut Bracket
Date: May 28, 2005
products. Phil, The perimeter of the window is roughly trimmed at 13/4" fromm edge of the plexi. This is the further line that you draw from the edge of the plexi. The inner/outer shells when bonded are held together (still in the window area) by clecos. You place the clecos at 11/4" from the edge of the plexi, or 1/2" from the first line drawn. When the shells are cured you final trim all of the window area, including the first two lines drawn, except for 3/4" left. This is the 3rd line drawn. The perimeter of the door itself is trimmed using the scribe line but trust that line totally. Hope that helps. Anh #141 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Hall" <phil(at)asibuildings.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket > > Anh, > > Since you have the doors done can you (or anyone) set me straight on the outer > door shell dimensions in figure 1, page 45-02. I am totally confused (easy to > do). I would like to keep going and not have to wait till Tuesday. > > Phil > 40122 > 928-636-1492 > > > > > My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The > > instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best > > fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too > > high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude > > into the window about 1/4" or it would be too low where a good portion of > > the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter > > matches the drawings best. > > > > Anyone had an easier fit than this? > > > > Anh > > #141 > > > --- > > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Re: Gas Strut Bracket
Date: May 28, 2005
products. Jesse, I have downloaded the correct revision from Van's website. The problem was that step 1 said to match-drill the holes to mount the bracket to the cabin top. Step 2 said to make the 77/8" guide to position the other bracket on the door. By then it was too late. On the second door I taped one bracket to the door first, then used the guide to position the other bracket on the cabin top. Worked out much better. Basically reversing steps 1 and 2. I also looked at the video that I took of 410RV at SNF. It has a notch about 1/4" into the "gutter" of the cabin top that the bracket sits in. I didn't notch mine initially and sure enough my bracket stuck out 1/4" too far. Anh #141 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Saint To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket I don't know what revision of the plans you have, but the piece you make to help position the strut bracket on the door is supposed to be just under 8", not just under 9". We just discovered that yesterday. If your plans say 8+", take off one inch. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 12:49 AM To: RV10 Subject: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude into the window about 1/4"; or it would be too low where a good portion of the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter matches the drawings best. Anyone had an easier fit than this? Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Re: Gas Strut Bracket
Date: May 28, 2005
products. Sorry, too quick on the fingers. I meant don't trust the scribe line.Anh ----- Original Message ----- From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket > > Phil, > The perimeter of the window is roughly trimmed at 13/4" fromm edge of the > plexi. This is the further line that you draw from the edge of the plexi. > The inner/outer shells when bonded are held together (still in the window > area) by clecos. You place the clecos at 11/4" from the edge of the plexi, > or 1/2" from the first line drawn. When the shells are cured you final trim > all of the window area, including the first two lines drawn, except for 3/4" > left. This is the 3rd line drawn. The perimeter of the door itself is > trimmed using the scribe line but trust that line totally. Hope that helps. > Anh > #141 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Hall" <phil(at)asibuildings.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Gas Strut Bracket > > > > > > Anh, > > > > Since you have the doors done can you (or anyone) set me straight on the > outer > > door shell dimensions in figure 1, page 45-02. I am totally confused > (easy to > > do). I would like to keep going and not have to wait till Tuesday. > > > > Phil > > 40122 > > 928-636-1492 > > > > > > > > My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. > The > > > instructions say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best > > > fit". Well, my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either > too > > > high and too far outboard where the bracket at the other end would > protrude > > > into the window about 1/4" or it would be too low where a good portion > of > > > the cabin top flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The > latter > > > matches the drawings best. > > > > > > Anyone had an easier fit than this? > > > > > > Anh > > > #141 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > --- > > > --- > > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BBreckenridge(at)att.net
Subject: 4 Days Missing
Date: May 29, 2005
1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO Maybe it's just a glitch in my region of space warp, but we seem to be missing May 18, 19, 20 & 21 in the archives. Ok, who's got 'em? Matt? Mr. Dralle? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots,
and GPS
Date: May 29, 2005
I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Lighting question
Hi all, Well, the rudder is almost done and a few questions popped into my mind: 1. Where does the beacon go? (In the 152/172 it is at the top of the vertical stabilizer, but where do you put it in the RV-10?) 2. What nav light package is everyone going with? I'd prefer LED lighting; Who makes LED nav lights for the RV-10? I'd prefer to get some soon so I have them when Ido the tail fairings. 3. What strobe package does everyone prefer? (Just starting to think on the strobes now) Thanks! -Jim 40384 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Lighting question
Jim, See inline: Tim James Hein wrote: > > Hi all, > Well, the rudder is almost done and a few questions popped into my mind: > > 1. Where does the beacon go? (In the 152/172 it is at the top of the > vertical stabilizer, but where do you put it in the RV-10?) Most won't have a beacon. You'll use the 3-point strobe method, with one in each wingtip, and one tail light/strobe combo on the lower part of the rudder. Take a peek at your rudder fairing. Also, if you watch Randy's in-flight video, you can see the strobe flashing sometimes. > 2. What nav light package is everyone going with? I'd prefer LED > lighting; Who makes LED nav lights for the RV-10? I'd prefer to get some > soon so I have them when Ido the tail fairings. Um, "everyone" isn't going with the same thing. I'm sold on LED's too, so I'm either going CreativeAir, or Perihelion Design LED Nav's. Whelen also makes some, for those with piles of cash. As for the tail fairing, you may just want to complete your aluminum structure, and then move on to the wings. Then you have time to decide. > 3. What strobe package does everyone prefer? (Just starting to think on > the strobes now) > some have whelen's strobes, and some are going with the CreativeAir strobes. Not sure if it's a major difference one way or the other, except for some cash. > Thanks! > > -Jim 40384 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Autopilots, and GPS
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels,
Autopilots, and GPS You know, John did a great job with that...thanks John. But, I don't agree as fully as you after getting the info that I've attached to this email. It's an EAA paper on the subject of IFR Equipment in a homebuilt. I also put it on my site at: http://www.myrv10.com/files/guides/IFR_equipment.pdf if you can't get it from this email. I just got it from Direct to Avionics today. My take on it is now that you will need to have a Nav/Com (preferrably with Glideslope capability) in your homebuilt, no matter what you do, if you fly IFF in a homebuilt. Because it won't be technically tru to consider ANY GPS right now, Garmin 430/480/530 or other....to be legal for anything other than a secondary NAV source. I agree that you will NOT need to use equipment with a TSO. But, the catch is that you have to document or demonstrate that it performs to the TSO's standard. That is probably pretty tricky to do. The Chelton would absolutely be easier than many, because it's running the SAME software as it's TSO'd "Pro" line of equipment. If you go with something like the GRT/BMA or anything else with an internal GPS, there's not even a BASIS for you to go on if you want to try to show TSO equivalency. But, how are you going to verify the TSO equivalency? I guess after my initial fly off, I'll have to get the TSO specs, and then put it back into Phase I for a while and try to do some thorough flight testing and prove that it matches the TSO'd specs of the Pro unit... if that's even possible. And, since we can't use the 430/530/480 as a primary nav anyway, (in GPS use I mean), then our Nav receiver is an important part of our panel.....that was the big eye opener. So, people with a GNS480 in their panel shouldn't consider it as making them legal because of the GPS....it's legal because of the NAV/GS receiver. So, what does this mean to us? It means that Russell is good, because he has the SL-30 NAV/GS. It means that the GNC 300XL is not needed to be TSO'd, because NONE of the GPS's will be his *legal* primary Nav device. Same with my panel....I have the SL-30 for the "legal" department, but the Chelton wouldn't have to be. Also, the SL-30 has a built in CDI (although not fancy), so you should be able to do a VOR approach with it. I wouldn't agree that the CDI head has to be installed, but, for doing an ILS it might be needed. (Can someone who's flown a 430/530/480 tell me if any of these has an internal display of a glideslope...or just a CDI?) Not that the CDI head wouldn't be useful. I may decide to cut a hole for one myself. Also, regarding the WAAS approach, it's easy to see now why the GNS480, or remote mount FreeFlight GPS would be "required" because even the Chelton Pro's WAAS receiver isn't TSO'd for WAAS approaches yet. Perhaps if the Pro was, the sport might be more suitable. The thing is, given all of the above info (esp. the attachment), perhaps the internal WAAS could well be just fine for the approach without the GNS480/Freeflight....since we don't have to have TSO'd equipment....the big catch is, how do we prove that our WAAS receiver is equivalent to the TSO spec? That would be pretty hard to do if the manufacturer hasn't done it on their pro model. Funny how hard this all has to be, given that the EAA has an interpretation, each person also has their interpretation, and now I have to have my own interpretation of the EAA's paper. The FAA surely doesn't spell things out with perfection regarding homebuilts....although that might be to our benefit, as if they did, it might be more restrictive than the way it is now. So, for those who think TSO'd is the only way, I guess buying all TSO'd equipment can't hurt.....but your panel's gonna cost some big bucks if you insist on TSO'd stuff, and it's never going to be cutting edge. For those who think no TSO'd stuff is required, it looks like you should consider a good Nav/Com/GS receiver at least that is TSO'd. Then there people like me....the middle grounders. I think TSO'd would be best chosen if possible, but I'm starting to see that perhaps the regs are as such that our homebuilts will NEVER technically be equivalent in legal capability to a certified aircraft, because even if we install TSO'd GPS equipment, we still can't rely on it for primary nav using the GPS function....so perhaps a mix of TSO'd and non-TSO'd is the realistic way to go. Josh from Direct2Avionics did say that the WAAS stuff is pretty new and that I might do well to contact the EAA myself directly again to see how everything is currently interpreted by them. My guess is that since the Feds are pushing GPS/WAAS so they can decommission their VOR's and NDB approaches, we're likely to see some bending on the GPS issues, and perhaps someday in the near future we'll be able to use GPS for primary Nav. For myself, some of this is starting to have an impact on my panel again. While I think an SL-30/SL-40 combo would be fine, I played with the GNS480 simulator yesterday a bit and was able to quickly learn how to do the basic funtions without a manual. I couldn't currently flight-plan in it, or set up an approach, but I'm more comfortable now. So I am now leaning back towards a SL-30 as Nav/Com 1, (to autotune with my chelton), and the GNS-480 as Nav/Com 2....as my WAAS legal receiver, and backup Nav/GPS. I have to find out if I can display Glideslope on it's screens, but if I can, then I'm not putting in an external CDI. Oh, and by the way....since the Chelton's are all independent of eachother, when something says you need 3 of these, or 2 of those, each screen can be counted separately. So, that CDI from the 480 could be displayed on my Chelton Screen #2, even if I lost my AHRS and screen 1 completely. So this still leans me away from the external CDI. Wow, there's a lot to know. The panel is absolutely the most stressful part of planning this airplane for me. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Russell Daves wrote: > I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if > you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my > three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and > an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm > but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. > > Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS > so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I > have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with > the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Lighting question
Date: May 29, 2005
> >Hi all, > Well, the rudder is almost done and a few questions popped into my >mind: > >1. Where does the beacon go? (In the 152/172 it is at the top of the >vertical stabilizer, but where do you put it in the RV-10?) Beacon?? What beacon? Don't need no steenkin' beekin... One tail strobe in the rudder bottom fairing or simple amber position lamp will do. Put a beacon on top of the vert stab and get laughed at by all the other RV kids on the block. ;) >2. What nav light package is everyone going with? I'd prefer LED lighting; >Who makes LED nav lights for the RV-10? I'd prefer to get some soon so I >have them when Ido the tail fairings. Creativair.com They go in the wing tips, not the tail. >3. What strobe package does everyone prefer? (Just starting to think on the >strobes now) Whelan (if you prefer certified, gold plated, mom approved and preferred by 8 out of 10 dentists) or Aeroflash if you want to save money and get the same thing. I've also looked at strobesnmore.com as a viable source. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Ochs" <jochs(at)froody.org>
Subject: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots,
and GPS
Date: May 29, 2005
Man they make this crap confusing :P My reading of the paragraph in the eaa document seems to mean that you can use gps, but you have to be equipped with the other stuff as well. I think it is just saying you can't consider the aircraft equipped for IFR operations if you *only* have a gps as nav equipment(which I personally wouldn't anyway) but doesn't imply that you can't use the GPS as primary navigation. If my interpretation is right, then it obviates the next paragraph ;) The question that is popping up from all of these questions and interpretations that are coming up on this issue is that if even a TSO'd gps isn't considered good enough for primary navigation in a homebuilt, does that mean you CANNOT fly a GPS/A or WAAS approach since the gps is your primary / only source of navigation for that approach? That doesn't seem right to me. Not that the regs tend to be logical, informed, or even smart, but it seems stupid to me that you wouldn't be able to fly an approach with something like a GNS480 when even my handheld will give me orders of magnitude of precision over an ndb or vor approach. They (the eaa paper) also seem to imply that there are type certified aircraft that are exempt from 91.205(d)(2)... using and only equipped with gps and legal for IFR. This doesn't seem right to me either. You would then have a certificated airplane that can't get into a significant number of airports that don't have gps approaches and if the gps failed... Are there IFR legal type certified aircraft without a nav/comm? Does the person who buys it then spend as much as we spent on the fuselage for our planes to get a nav/comm. installed once he realizes that he cant get into 50% of the airports ? Anyway, hopefully someone will figure this out before I get to my panel ! James -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS You know, John did a great job with that...thanks John. But, I don't agree as fully as you after getting the info that I've attached to this email. It's an EAA paper on the subject of IFR Equipment in a homebuilt. I also put it on my site at: http://www.myrv10.com/files/guides/IFR_equipment.pdf if you can't get it from this email. I just got it from Direct to Avionics today. My take on it is now that you will need to have a Nav/Com (preferrably with Glideslope capability) in your homebuilt, no matter what you do, if you fly IFF in a homebuilt. Because it won't be technically tru to consider ANY GPS right now, Garmin 430/480/530 or other....to be legal for anything other than a secondary NAV source. I agree that you will NOT need to use equipment with a TSO. But, the catch is that you have to document or demonstrate that it performs to the TSO's standard. That is probably pretty tricky to do. The Chelton would absolutely be easier than many, because it's running the SAME software as it's TSO'd "Pro" line of equipment. If you go with something like the GRT/BMA or anything else with an internal GPS, there's not even a BASIS for you to go on if you want to try to show TSO equivalency. But, how are you going to verify the TSO equivalency? I guess after my initial fly off, I'll have to get the TSO specs, and then put it back into Phase I for a while and try to do some thorough flight testing and prove that it matches the TSO'd specs of the Pro unit... if that's even possible. And, since we can't use the 430/530/480 as a primary nav anyway, (in GPS use I mean), then our Nav receiver is an important part of our panel.....that was the big eye opener. So, people with a GNS480 in their panel shouldn't consider it as making them legal because of the GPS....it's legal because of the NAV/GS receiver. So, what does this mean to us? It means that Russell is good, because he has the SL-30 NAV/GS. It means that the GNC 300XL is not needed to be TSO'd, because NONE of the GPS's will be his *legal* primary Nav device. Same with my panel....I have the SL-30 for the "legal" department, but the Chelton wouldn't have to be. Also, the SL-30 has a built in CDI (although not fancy), so you should be able to do a VOR approach with it. I wouldn't agree that the CDI head has to be installed, but, for doing an ILS it might be needed. (Can someone who's flown a 430/530/480 tell me if any of these has an internal display of a glideslope...or just a CDI?) Not that the CDI head wouldn't be useful. I may decide to cut a hole for one myself. Also, regarding the WAAS approach, it's easy to see now why the GNS480, or remote mount FreeFlight GPS would be "required" because even the Chelton Pro's WAAS receiver isn't TSO'd for WAAS approaches yet. Perhaps if the Pro was, the sport might be more suitable. The thing is, given all of the above info (esp. the attachment), perhaps the internal WAAS could well be just fine for the approach without the GNS480/Freeflight....since we don't have to have TSO'd equipment....the big catch is, how do we prove that our WAAS receiver is equivalent to the TSO spec? That would be pretty hard to do if the manufacturer hasn't done it on their pro model. Funny how hard this all has to be, given that the EAA has an interpretation, each person also has their interpretation, and now I have to have my own interpretation of the EAA's paper. The FAA surely doesn't spell things out with perfection regarding homebuilts....although that might be to our benefit, as if they did, it might be more restrictive than the way it is now. So, for those who think TSO'd is the only way, I guess buying all TSO'd equipment can't hurt.....but your panel's gonna cost some big bucks if you insist on TSO'd stuff, and it's never going to be cutting edge. For those who think no TSO'd stuff is required, it looks like you should consider a good Nav/Com/GS receiver at least that is TSO'd. Then there people like me....the middle grounders. I think TSO'd would be best chosen if possible, but I'm starting to see that perhaps the regs are as such that our homebuilts will NEVER technically be equivalent in legal capability to a certified aircraft, because even if we install TSO'd GPS equipment, we still can't rely on it for primary nav using the GPS function....so perhaps a mix of TSO'd and non-TSO'd is the realistic way to go. Josh from Direct2Avionics did say that the WAAS stuff is pretty new and that I might do well to contact the EAA myself directly again to see how everything is currently interpreted by them. My guess is that since the Feds are pushing GPS/WAAS so they can decommission their VOR's and NDB approaches, we're likely to see some bending on the GPS issues, and perhaps someday in the near future we'll be able to use GPS for primary Nav. For myself, some of this is starting to have an impact on my panel again. While I think an SL-30/SL-40 combo would be fine, I played with the GNS480 simulator yesterday a bit and was able to quickly learn how to do the basic funtions without a manual. I couldn't currently flight-plan in it, or set up an approach, but I'm more comfortable now. So I am now leaning back towards a SL-30 as Nav/Com 1, (to autotune with my chelton), and the GNS-480 as Nav/Com 2....as my WAAS legal receiver, and backup Nav/GPS. I have to find out if I can display Glideslope on it's screens, but if I can, then I'm not putting in an external CDI. Oh, and by the way....since the Chelton's are all independent of eachother, when something says you need 3 of these, or 2 of those, each screen can be counted separately. So, that CDI from the 480 could be displayed on my Chelton Screen #2, even if I lost my AHRS and screen 1 completely. So this still leans me away from the external CDI. Wow, there's a lot to know. The panel is absolutely the most stressful part of planning this airplane for me. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Russell Daves wrote: > I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if > you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my > three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and > an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm > but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. > > Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS > so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I > have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with > the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Patrick Thyssen <jump2(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots,
and GPS Just look at the aim book under GPS and it tells you all this, about the use of GPS and having to have a approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight. This is a book everyone is suppose to have or at least read. Pat Tim Olson wrote: You know, John did a great job with that...thanks John. But, I don't agree as fully as you after getting the info that I've attached to this email. It's an EAA paper on the subject of IFR Equipment in a homebuilt. I also put it on my site at: http://www.myrv10.com/files/guides/IFR_equipment.pdf if you can't get it from this email. I just got it from Direct to Avionics today. My take on it is now that you will need to have a Nav/Com (preferrably with Glideslope capability) in your homebuilt, no matter what you do, if you fly IFF in a homebuilt. Because it won't be technically tru to consider ANY GPS right now, Garmin 430/480/530 or other....to be legal for anything other than a secondary NAV source. I agree that you will NOT need to use equipment with a TSO. But, the catch is that you have to document or demonstrate that it performs to the TSO's standard. That is probably pretty tricky to do. The Chelton would absolutely be easier than many, because it's running the SAME software as it's TSO'd "Pro" line of equipment. If you go with something like the GRT/BMA or anything else with an internal GPS, there's not even a BASIS for you to go on if you want to try to show TSO equivalency. But, how are you going to verify the TSO equivalency? I guess after my initial fly off, I'll have to get the TSO specs, and then put it back into Phase I for a while and try to do some thorough flight testing and prove that it matches the TSO'd specs of the Pro unit... if that's even possible. And, since we can't use the 430/530/480 as a primary nav anyway, (in GPS use I mean), then our Nav receiver is an important part of our panel.....that was the big eye opener. So, people with a GNS480 in their panel shouldn't consider it as making them legal because of the GPS....it's legal because of the NAV/GS receiver. So, what does this mean to us? It means that Russell is good, because he has the SL-30 NAV/GS. It means that the GNC 300XL is not needed to be TSO'd, because NONE of the GPS's will be his *legal* primary Nav device. Same with my panel....I have the SL-30 for the "legal" department, but the Chelton wouldn't have to be. Also, the SL-30 has a built in CDI (although not fancy), so you should be able to do a VOR approach with it. I wouldn't agree that the CDI head has to be installed, but, for doing an ILS it might be needed. (Can someone who's flown a 430/530/480 tell me if any of these has an internal display of a glideslope...or just a CDI?) Not that the CDI head wouldn't be useful. I may decide to cut a hole for one myself. Also, regarding the WAAS approach, it's easy to see now why the GNS480, or remote mount FreeFlight GPS would be "required" because even the Chelton Pro's WAAS receiver isn't TSO'd for WAAS approaches yet. Perhaps if the Pro was, the sport might be more suitable. The thing is, given all of the above info (esp. the attachment), perhaps the internal WAAS could well be just fine for the approach without the GNS480/Freeflight....since we don't have to have TSO'd equipment....the big catch is, how do we prove that our WAAS receiver is equivalent to the TSO spec? That would be pretty hard to do if the manufacturer hasn't done it on their pro model. Funny how hard this all has to be, given that the EAA has an interpretation, each person also has their interpretation, and now I have to have my own interpretation of the EAA's paper. The FAA surely doesn't spell things out with perfection regarding homebuilts....although that might be to our benefit, as if they did, it might be more restrictive than the way it is now. So, for those who think TSO'd is the only way, I guess buying all TSO'd equipment can't hurt.....but your panel's gonna cost some big bucks if you insist on TSO'd stuff, and it's never going to be cutting edge. For those who think no TSO'd stuff is required, it looks like you should consider a good Nav/Com/GS receiver at least that is TSO'd. Then there people like me....the middle grounders. I think TSO'd would be best chosen if possible, but I'm starting to see that perhaps the regs are as such that our homebuilts will NEVER technically be equivalent in legal capability to a certified aircraft, because even if we install TSO'd GPS equipment, we still can't rely on it for primary nav using the GPS function....so perhaps a mix of TSO'd and non-TSO'd is the realistic way to go. Josh from Direct2Avionics did say that the WAAS stuff is pretty new and that I might do well to contact the EAA myself directly again to see how everything is currently interpreted by them. My guess is that since the Feds are pushing GPS/WAAS so they can decommission their VOR's and NDB approaches, we're likely to see some bending on the GPS issues, and perhaps someday in the near future we'll be able to use GPS for primary Nav. For myself, some of this is starting to have an impact on my panel again. While I think an SL-30/SL-40 combo would be fine, I played with the GNS480 simulator yesterday a bit and was able to quickly learn how to do the basic funtions without a manual. I couldn't currently flight-plan in it, or set up an approach, but I'm more comfortable now. So I am now leaning back towards a SL-30 as Nav/Com 1, (to autotune with my chelton), and the GNS-480 as Nav/Com 2....as my WAAS legal receiver, and backup Nav/GPS. I have to find out if I can display Glideslope on it's screens, but if I can, then I'm not putting in an external CDI. Oh, and by the way....since the Chelton's are all independent of eachother, when something says you need 3 of these, or 2 of those, each screen can be counted separately. So, that CDI from the 480 could be displayed on my Chelton Screen #2, even if I lost my AHRS and screen 1 completely. So this still leans me away from the external CDI. Wow, there's a lot to know. The panel is absolutely the most stressful part of planning this airplane for me. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Russell Daves wrote: > I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if > you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my > three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and > an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm > but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. > > Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS > so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I > have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with > the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
Subject: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots,
and GPS
Date: May 29, 2005
I'm not sure I have the answer either but my understanding is that if you have an IFR cert GPS you can legally fly with it as the primary instrument, but you have to have the backup up gauges or equipment in case the GPS, your primary source, were to fail during the IFR portion of your flight. I believe if you had another IFR certified GPS that could serve as a backup. You can legally shoot the approach's with an approach cert unit but need the backup just in case of a failure. I believe I will probably use the Garmin 430 or 480 as my primary source and have the Garmin SL30 and have a remote ILS head as my backup. It's possible I will use another GPS, but at this point I'm leaning towards a remote head. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Ochs" <jochs(at)froody.org> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS > > Man they make this crap confusing :P > > My reading of the paragraph in the eaa document seems to mean that you can > use gps, but you have to be equipped with the other stuff as well. I > think > it is just saying you can't consider the aircraft equipped for IFR > operations if you *only* have a gps as nav equipment(which I personally > wouldn't anyway) but doesn't imply that you can't use the GPS as primary > navigation. If my interpretation is right, then it obviates the next > paragraph ;) > > The question that is popping up from all of these questions and > interpretations that are coming up on this issue is that if even a TSO'd > gps > isn't considered good enough for primary navigation in a homebuilt, does > that mean you CANNOT fly a GPS/A or WAAS approach since the gps is your > primary / only source of navigation for that approach? That doesn't seem > right to me. Not that the regs tend to be logical, informed, or even > smart, > but it seems stupid to me that you wouldn't be able to fly an approach > with > something like a GNS480 when even my handheld will give me orders of > magnitude of precision over an ndb or vor approach. > > They (the eaa paper) also seem to imply that there are type certified > aircraft that are exempt from 91.205(d)(2)... using and only equipped with > gps and legal for IFR. This doesn't seem right to me either. You would > then have a certificated airplane that can't get into a significant number > of airports that don't have gps approaches and if the gps failed... Are > there IFR legal type certified aircraft without a nav/comm? Does the > person > who buys it then spend as much as we spent on the fuselage for our planes > to > get a nav/comm. installed once he realizes that he cant get into 50% of > the > airports ? > > Anyway, hopefully someone will figure this out before I get to my panel ! > > James > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 7:36 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, > Autopilots, and GPS > > You know, John did a great job with that...thanks John. But, I don't > agree as fully as you after getting the info that I've attached to > this email. It's an EAA paper on the subject of IFR Equipment in > a homebuilt. I also put it on my site at: > > http://www.myrv10.com/files/guides/IFR_equipment.pdf > if you can't get it from this email. > > I just got it from Direct to Avionics today. My take on it is > now that you will need to have a Nav/Com (preferrably with Glideslope > capability) in your homebuilt, no matter what you do, if you fly IFF > in a homebuilt. Because it won't be technically tru to consider > ANY GPS right now, Garmin 430/480/530 or other....to be legal for > anything other than a secondary NAV source. I agree that you will > NOT need to use equipment with a TSO. But, the catch is that you > have to document or demonstrate that it performs to the TSO's standard. > That is probably pretty tricky to do. The Chelton would absolutely > be easier than many, because it's running the SAME software as > it's TSO'd "Pro" line of equipment. If you go with something like > the GRT/BMA or anything else with an internal GPS, there's not even > a BASIS for you to go on if you want to try to show TSO equivalency. > But, how are you going to verify the TSO equivalency? I guess after > my initial fly off, I'll have to get the TSO specs, and then put it > back into Phase I for a while and try to do some thorough flight > testing and prove that it matches the TSO'd specs of the Pro unit... > if that's even possible. And, since we can't use the 430/530/480 as a > primary nav anyway, (in GPS use I mean), then our Nav receiver is an > important part of our panel.....that was the big eye opener. So, > people with a GNS480 in their panel shouldn't consider it as making > them legal because of the GPS....it's legal because of the NAV/GS > receiver. > > So, what does this mean to us? It means that Russell is good, because > he has the SL-30 NAV/GS. It means that the GNC 300XL is not needed to > be TSO'd, because NONE of the GPS's will be his *legal* primary Nav > device. Same with my panel....I have the SL-30 for the "legal" > department, but the Chelton wouldn't have to be. Also, the SL-30 > has a built in CDI (although not fancy), so you should be able to > do a VOR approach with it. I wouldn't agree that the CDI head has > to be installed, but, for doing an ILS it might be needed. (Can > someone who's flown a 430/530/480 tell me if any of these has an > internal display of a glideslope...or just a CDI?) Not that the > CDI head wouldn't be useful. I may decide to cut a hole for one > myself. > > Also, regarding the WAAS approach, it's easy to see now why the > GNS480, or remote mount FreeFlight GPS would be "required" because > even the Chelton Pro's WAAS receiver isn't TSO'd for WAAS approaches > yet. Perhaps if the Pro was, the sport might be more suitable. > The thing is, given all of the above info (esp. the attachment), > perhaps the internal WAAS could well be just fine for the approach > without the GNS480/Freeflight....since we don't have to have > TSO'd equipment....the big catch is, how do we prove that our WAAS > receiver is equivalent to the TSO spec? That would be pretty hard to > do if the manufacturer hasn't done it on their pro model. > > Funny how hard this all has to be, given that the EAA has an > interpretation, each person also has their interpretation, and > now I have to have my own interpretation of the EAA's paper. > The FAA surely doesn't spell things out with perfection regarding > homebuilts....although that might be to our benefit, as if they > did, it might be more restrictive than the way it is now. > > So, for those who think TSO'd is the only way, I guess buying all > TSO'd equipment can't hurt.....but your panel's gonna cost some > big bucks if you insist on TSO'd stuff, and it's never going to be > cutting edge. For those who think no TSO'd stuff is required, it > looks like you should consider a good Nav/Com/GS receiver at least > that is TSO'd. Then there people like me....the middle grounders. > I think TSO'd would be best chosen if possible, but I'm starting to > see that perhaps the regs are as such that our homebuilts will NEVER > technically be equivalent in legal capability to a certified aircraft, > because even if we install TSO'd GPS equipment, we still can't rely > on it for primary nav using the GPS function....so perhaps a mix > of TSO'd and non-TSO'd is the realistic way to go. > > Josh from Direct2Avionics did say that the WAAS stuff is pretty new > and that I might do well to contact the EAA myself directly again > to see how everything is currently interpreted by them. My guess is > that since the Feds are pushing GPS/WAAS so they can decommission their > VOR's and NDB approaches, we're likely to see some bending on the > GPS issues, and perhaps someday in the near future we'll be able > to use GPS for primary Nav. > > For myself, some of this is starting to have an impact on my panel > again. While I think an SL-30/SL-40 combo would be fine, I played > with the GNS480 simulator yesterday a bit and was able to quickly > learn how to do the basic funtions without a manual. I couldn't > currently flight-plan in it, or set up an approach, but I'm more > comfortable now. So I am now leaning back towards a SL-30 as > Nav/Com 1, (to autotune with my chelton), and the GNS-480 as > Nav/Com 2....as my WAAS legal receiver, and backup Nav/GPS. I have > to find out if I can display Glideslope on it's screens, but if I > can, then I'm not putting in an external CDI. > > Oh, and by the way....since the Chelton's are all independent > of eachother, when something says you need 3 of these, or 2 of those, > each screen can be counted separately. So, that CDI from the 480 > could be displayed on my Chelton Screen #2, even if I lost my AHRS > and screen 1 completely. So this still leans me away from the > external CDI. > > > Wow, there's a lot to know. The panel is absolutely the most stressful > part of planning this airplane for me. > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > Russell Daves wrote: >> I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if >> you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my >> three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and >> an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm >> but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. >> >> Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS >> so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I >> have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. >> >> In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with >> the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: 4 Days Missing
B079D020A050C0A9DBDBD(at)att.net> Ah, interesting... Actually the days weren't "missing", it was just that last Tuesday the previous week's messages for Tuesday weren't removed from the 7-day queue. What you were seeing was messages from May 17, then messages from May 24. This was caused by the email system hang on cusp of May 23-24. The program that does the purging runs from a crontab job and since the system had just crashed, it didn't get run. Next Tuesday May 31, everything would have gotten back to normal, but I went ahead and cleaned up the 7-day queues by hand this morning - 53 of them! The List 7-Day Browse now correctly contains 7 days spanning May 23 through May 29. Thanks for the heads up on that! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. At 08:18 PM 5/28/2005 Saturday, you wrote: > >Maybe it's just a glitch in my region of space warp, but we seem to be >missing May 18, 19, 20 & 21 in the archives. Ok, who's got >'em? Matt? Mr. Dralle? > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: priming and flush riveting
I'm curious about the effect of priming on flush rivets. Will the extra layer of material (primer) in the flush rivet hole be enough to raise the rivet up appreciably? In other words, do I want to prime the insides of the rivet holes? Thanks, -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots,
and GPS
Date: May 29, 2005
Tim, The 480 has a vertical indicator that shows up on certain approaches in the display, I know it does this for GPS approaches, so I'm sure it does the same for the ILS. Here is a link http://www.garmin.com/specs/GNS480_0704.pdf with a picture. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Olson To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPSChelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS You know, John did a great job with that...thanks John. But, I don't agree as fully as you after getting the info that I've attached to this email. It's an EAA paper on the subject of IFR Equipment in a homebuilt. I also put it on my site at: http://www.myrv10.com/files/guides/IFR_equipment.pdf if you can't get it from this email. I just got it from Direct to Avionics today. My take on it is now that you will need to have a Nav/Com (preferrably with Glideslope capability) in your homebuilt, no matter what you do, if you fly IFF in a homebuilt. Because it won't be technically tru to consider ANY GPS right now, Garmin 430/480/530 or other....to be legal for anything other than a secondary NAV source. I agree that you will NOT need to use equipment with a TSO. But, the catch is that you have to document or demonstrate that it performs to the TSO's standard. That is probably pretty tricky to do. The Chelton would absolutely be easier than many, because it's running the SAME software as it's TSO'd "Pro" line of equipment. If you go with something like the GRT/BMA or anything else with an internal GPS, there's not even a BASIS for you to go on if you want to try to show TSO equivalency. But, how are you going to verify the TSO equivalency? I guess after my initial fly off, I'll have to get the TSO specs, and then put it back into Phase I for a while and try to do some thorough flight testing and prove that it matches the TSO'd specs of the Pro unit... if that's even possible. And, since we can't use the 430/530/480 as a primary nav anyway, (in GPS use I mean), then our Nav receiver is an important part of our panel.....that was the big eye opener. So, people with a GNS480 in their panel shouldn't consider it as making them legal because of the GPS....it's legal because of the NAV/GS receiver. So, what does this mean to us? It means that Russell is good, because he has the SL-30 NAV/GS. It means that the GNC 300XL is not needed to be TSO'd, because NONE of the GPS's will be his *legal* primary Nav device. Same with my panel....I have the SL-30 for the "legal" department, but the Chelton wouldn't have to be. Also, the SL-30 has a built in CDI (although not fancy), so you should be able to do a VOR approach with it. I wouldn't agree that the CDI head has to be installed, but, for doing an ILS it might be needed. (Can someone who's flown a 430/530/480 tell me if any of these has an internal display of a glideslope...or just a CDI?) Not that the CDI head wouldn't be useful. I may decide to cut a hole for one myself. Also, regarding the WAAS approach, it's easy to see now why the GNS480, or remote mount FreeFlight GPS would be "required" because even the Chelton Pro's WAAS receiver isn't TSO'd for WAAS approaches yet. Perhaps if the Pro was, the sport might be more suitable. The thing is, given all of the above info (esp. the attachment), perhaps the internal WAAS could well be just fine for the approach without the GNS480/Freeflight....since we don't have to have TSO'd equipment....the big catch is, how do we prove that our WAAS receiver is equivalent to the TSO spec? That would be pretty hard to do if the manufacturer hasn't done it on their pro model. Funny how hard this all has to be, given that the EAA has an interpretation, each person also has their interpretation, and now I have to have my own interpretation of the EAA's paper. The FAA surely doesn't spell things out with perfection regarding homebuilts....although that might be to our benefit, as if they did, it might be more restrictive than the way it is now. So, for those who think TSO'd is the only way, I guess buying all TSO'd equipment can't hurt.....but your panel's gonna cost some big bucks if you insist on TSO'd stuff, and it's never going to be cutting edge. For those who think no TSO'd stuff is required, it looks like you should consider a good Nav/Com/GS receiver at least that is TSO'd. Then there people like me....the middle grounders. I think TSO'd would be best chosen if possible, but I'm starting to see that perhaps the regs are as such that our homebuilts will NEVER technically be equivalent in legal capability to a certified aircraft, because even if we install TSO'd GPS equipment, we still can't rely on it for primary nav using the GPS function....so perhaps a mix of TSO'd and non-TSO'd is the realistic way to go. Josh from Direct2Avionics did say that the WAAS stuff is pretty new and that I might do well to contact the EAA myself directly again to see how everything is currently interpreted by them. My guess is that since the Feds are pushing GPS/WAAS so they can decommission their VOR's and NDB approaches, we're likely to see some bending on the GPS issues, and perhaps someday in the near future we'll be able to use GPS for primary Nav. For myself, some of this is starting to have an impact on my panel again. While I think an SL-30/SL-40 combo would be fine, I played with the GNS480 simulator yesterday a bit and was able to quickly learn how to do the basic funtions without a manual. I couldn't currently flight-plan in it, or set up an approach, but I'm more comfortable now. So I am now leaning back towards a SL-30 as Nav/Com 1, (to autotune with my chelton), and the GNS-480 as Nav/Com 2....as my WAAS legal receiver, and backup Nav/GPS. I have to find out if I can display Glideslope on it's screens, but if I can, then I'm not putting in an external CDI. Oh, and by the way....since the Chelton's are all independent of eachother, when something says you need 3 of these, or 2 of those, each screen can be counted separately. So, that CDI from the 480 could be displayed on my Chelton Screen #2, even if I lost my AHRS and screen 1 completely. So this still leans me away from the external CDI. Wow, there's a lot to know. The panel is absolutely the most stressful part of planning this airplane for me. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Russell Daves wrote: > I agree with John's analysis, that you need a TSO'd GPS in the RV-10 if > you want to legally fly a GPS approach. That is why I have designed my > three screen GRT panel (Duel EFIS & Sport EFIS) around both an SL-30 and > an IFR approved GNC 300XL. That way not only do I have a second Comm > but I also have a TSO'd IFR GPS. > > Having said that, I am going with the WASS option on the GRT duel EFIS > so even when I am legally flying the GPS approach on the GNC 300XL I > have the WASS info displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > In addition I also have the ability to shoot an ILS on the SL-30 with > the ILS displayed on the GRT EFIS. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: priming and flush riveting
Date: May 29, 2005
Dj, I have never seen primer affect the height of a rivet, Proseal maybe, I used tanks dimple dies from Cleavland tools to eliminate that issue while building the tanks. I have had primer in the dimples and it didn't affect the height of the rivet. Primer thickness is measured in mils, compared to thousands...you have a greater risk of not setting the dimple die square than having primer cause the manuf. head to seat higher than the skin. Rick S. 40185 Wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> Subject: RV10-List: priming and flush riveting > > I'm curious about the effect of priming on flush rivets. > Will the extra layer of > material (primer) in the flush rivet hole be enough > to raise the rivet up appreciably? In other words, > do I want to prime the insides of the rivet holes? > > Thanks, > > -Dj > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com>
Subject: priming and flush riveting
Date: May 30, 2005
DJ, As Rick indicates below, no problem with dimpled holes. If the holes are machine countersunk, primer in the hole can make the rivet sit a tad higher. I just give the countersunk hole a bit of a twiddle with the deburring tool to remove the primer or other crap that may have accumulated. Rivets set in countersunk holes will be close to 'gas tight', so there will be little opportunity for moisture ingress. I wouldn't bother priming inside the holes. Ron #40187 Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ricksked(at)earthlink.net Subject: Re: RV10-List: priming and flush riveting Dj, I have never seen primer affect the height of a rivet, Proseal maybe, I used tanks dimple dies from Cleavland tools to eliminate that issue while building the tanks. I have had primer in the dimples and it didn't affect the height of the rivet. Primer thickness is measured in mils, compared to thousands...you have a greater risk of not setting the dimple die square than having primer cause the manuf. head to seat higher than the skin. Rick S. 40185 Wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> Subject: RV10-List: priming and flush riveting > > I'm curious about the effect of priming on flush rivets. > Will the extra layer of > material (primer) in the flush rivet hole be enough > to raise the rivet up appreciably? In other words, > do I want to prime the insides of the rivet holes? > > Thanks, > > -Dj > > > ________________________________________________________________________________ ;
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Brcue Patton <bpattonsoa(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: priming and flush riveting
Yes the primer raises the rivet the film thickness of the primer. Unless you are very good and can prime only the inside of the rivet dimples, the film thickness is the same on the skin. Hence, no change. Bruce Patton Dj Merrill wrote: I'm curious about the effect of priming on flush rivets. Will the extra layer of material (primer) in the flush rivet hole be enough to raise the rivet up appreciably? In other words, do I want to prime the insides of the rivet holes? Thanks, -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tank skin to baffle rivet question
Date: May 29, 2005
From: "Droopy Erickson" <Droopy(at)ericksonjc.com>
Hope I didn't miss this somewhere in the archives, but here goes. On the bottom of the fuel tank skins where they rivet to the tank baffle, there are 3 holes really close together in about the center of the rivet line. There is no callout for the center of these three rivets and I can't find anywhere in the plans here or later that reference this hole. Anyone have a clue what it's for and what to do with it? John #40208 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Re: Tank skin to baffle rivet question
Date: May 29, 2005
products. John, It's been a while but if I remember correctly, those 3 holes are used to orient the baffle itself. You should find the same holes on one flange of the baffle and not the other flange. Anh #141 ----- Original Message ----- From: Droopy Erickson To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: RV10-List: Tank skin to baffle rivet question Hope I didn't miss this somewhere in the archives, but here goes. On the bottom of the fuel tank skins where they rivet to the tank baffle, there are 3 holes really close together in about the center of the rivet line. There is no callout for the center of these three rivets and I can't find anywhere in the plans here or later that reference this hole. Anyone have a clue what it's for and what to do with it? John #40208 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2005
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: priming and flush riveting
Brcue Patton wrote: > Yes the primer raises the rivet the film thickness of the primer. > Unless you are very good and can prime only the inside of the rivet > dimples, the film thickness is the same on the skin. Hence, no change. > Heh heh - good point! I hadn't thought of that. :-) Thanks for the help guys, -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Lark" <jrlark(at)bmts.com>
Subject: Garmin 480 glideslope
Date: May 29, 2005
Tim: The April issue of Flying magazine has an article by Tom Benenson showing an "advisory vertical guidance" (ie glideslope) as well as an HSI indication which is on a new NAV page, with a version 2 software release. Sure looks like it works the same as an external CDI.......Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Kirkland" <jskirkland(at)webpipe.net>
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: May 30, 2005
Hope Randy sees this now that there's a flying airplane in the group. I was wondering if anyone that has flown one of the RV-10's has thought that it needed a means of rudder trim? After flying 4.2 hrs XC yesterday it occurred to me that stepping on the ball during climbout gets old after a while, and I like the Cessna 182 rudder rim wheel so you can center the ball once climb is established and you're not so busy. Not sure if anyone would notice this in a quick demo flight, but by now I'm sure Randy would know! John Kirkland #40333 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: May 30, 2005
> >Hope Randy sees this now that there's a flying airplane in the group. I was >wondering if anyone that has flown one of the RV-10's has thought that it >needed a means of rudder trim? After flying 4.2 hrs XC yesterday it >occurred to me that stepping on the ball during climbout gets old after a >while, and I like the Cessna 182 rudder rim wheel so you can center the >ball once climb is established and you're not so busy. Not sure if anyone >would notice this in a quick demo flight, but by now I'm sure Randy would >know! > >John Kirkland >#40333 This ain't no 182! First, you're not going to be spending a lot of time climbing to altitude, and second, rudder pressures are so light that the average Joe's size elevens with just the slightest hint of pressure will center the ball. The RV10 rudder is very sensitive (even more than my -8) so you don't have to stomp on it to get the desired effect. My one flight in Van's -10 was just terrific and not once did I feel a need for any form of rudder trim. I guess I'm just used to not having one so the thought never crossed my mind! For level flight, yaw trim varies from airplane to airplane. A small rudder tab of either sheet metal or glued on balsa trailing edge stock from the hobby shop does the trick very well. My -8 flies ball centered in level flight with feet off the pedals. The earlier RV's (4's, 6's) often have small tabs attached from what I've seen over the years. This helps trim out the plane in climb and cruise, but has to be compensated for in descents. It just depends on what's important to you and what you have become accustomed to in the airplanes you typically fly. I'm sure Randy will have some valid input on this in due time. Lucky guy. ;) Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rudder Trim
Date: May 30, 2005
If you look at both of Vans -10s they have a fixed wedge screwed to the trailing edge of the rudder on the left side I think. I assume this was to provide some trim for right rudder deflection. Anyone else notice these..... John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: May 30, 2005
From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Pictures show the fixed rudder trim on N410RV with the Lycoming 260hp are on the opposite side and differing length than that on N220RV with the Continental 210hp. Just a point for discussion. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Kirkland Subject: RV10-List: Rudder Trim Hope Randy sees this now that there's a flying airplane in the group. I was wondering if anyone that has flown one of the RV-10's has thought that it needed a means of rudder trim? After flying 4.2 hrs XC yesterday it occurred to me that stepping on the ball during climbout gets old after a while, and I like the Cessna 182 rudder rim wheel so you can center the ball once climb is established and you're not so busy. Not sure if anyone would notice this in a quick demo flight, but by now I'm sure Randy would know! John Kirkland #40333 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: More Missing QB Fuse Parts
If you have a QB fuse, you probably should check the quantities of some of these parts. Some are not even listed on the inventory sheet. If you have more to add to this list, send it on and I'll perhaps post this on the website. Front Floor panels: If you didn't get the floor panels, you probably didn't get the hardware needed either. They will send that with them. I was still short 8 CS4-4's in that hardware pack. Also, there were no K1000-3 nutplates to put under the front legs of the gear brackets (the ones that bolt through the floorpans). Hardware bag 1455 includes 2 K1000-3's, but you need 4 to do the floorpans. You probably should get a couple extra K1000-3's because if you were short already by 4, who knows how many more will come up. I got tipped off from another lister and found these missing too: For brackets holding fuel/brake lines under front seats: AN515-6R8 (qty 8) AN960-6 (qty 8) AN365-632 (qty 8) I found you will be real short on the K1000-8 nutplates. They do include 40 in the hardware bags, but I found at LEAST this many required: P. 28-7 (6) P. 32-5 (2) P. 33-7 (8) P. 33-9 (5) P. 34-7 (4) P. 35-3 (8) P. 41-5 (6) P. 33-10 (24) That totals 63. How they missed by that far I have NO idea. AN257-P3 Hinge: I have a 3' piece, but you need to have about 3' for the 2 rear seats, and about 2' for the baggage door. I'm going to press on and cut my 3' piece for the baggage door and get them to send another 3' piece. MS21053-L08 None are in hardware list, but 4 are required on Pg 35-3. AN3-6A 4 are required per side....attaching the control bracket under front seats. pg 28-14. None are included in the inventory list. F-6114B and F-6114C: These are blocks that go in the rear baggage wall...I think for friction prevention where the seat belt cables come through the rear wall. 2 each are required on P. 33-10, none are in inventory. LP4-3's: They send a quantity of I think 275, but I am now running out. I can see that I used 196 on the rear seat area, + 39 in the baggage area for misc. panels, + 14 in the rear passenger floors. Then you get to P. 35-3 to put the bottom on the bracket that holds up the rear seat and it requires 50 right there, pushing you over the top. You will need to buy a Baggage door lock ES A-510-2K with Mag Switch or you won't have a way to latch your baggage door. On the front section, right above and behind the NACA vents, there's a "wire cover" that gets screwed down. There are 3 spots for nutplates pre-drilled in the longeron F1040-L & -R. They hold down the wire cover F-1042G-L&R on page 35-7. My longerons are pre-drilled. I couldn't find the spot in the plans where these get drilled for nutplates, or if it's done at the factory, but, I also couldn't find out where the nutplates are installed, so I have no idea what type are supposed to go there. I'll have to call in to verify this. Hopefully this list will help you people with QB Fuselage's not get stuck at various points along the process. I am very frustrated that every time I went into a section, I ran into a barrier of a missing part or something that had a dependency. Then I'd start another section and go until I ran into another missing part. I would not be nearly as bothered by this if at least once in this process I heard of a builder that actually got contacted by Van's, and told "Hey, we figured out that your kit was probably missing these parts....if you check for these, we'll send you out some if they're missing". But, it looks like they just fix the quanties in the kits....and they let the previous buyers slide until they figure it out and complain. That bugs me a bit. I got QB fuse # 40, or is it #44....but I suppose that's still early enough on to be finding mistakes. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
Subject: Filling pin holes
Date: May 30, 2005
products. What's everyone doing/using to fill the pin holes? I use epoxy with mircro baloons. I don't mind sanding but this stuff is hard as a rock after it cures and a bear to sand. Of course I have filler over 75% of the working surface because I see pin holes everywhere. Can smaller holes be ignored because the primer will fill them later? I'm thinking there might be an easier way or softer filler available to speed up the sanding. Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB fuse, by the way. #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com>
Subject: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Date: May 31, 2005
Hi Tim, Dumb question I guess, but why would a pop rivet be unacceptable in the 'impossible holes' in the baggage door attach bracket?? I'm happy to be re-educated here but I thought the main reason for riveting the nutplates was to centre the plate and prevent rotation during bolt installation/removal (since the nut plate acts like a 'nut' once the bolt is tightened). Does the nutplate really need the strength of two solid rivets? cheers, Ron #187 Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB fuse, by the way. #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Ron, It's not that it's a strength issue. The problem is, there are no provided countersunk pop rivets in 3/32" to fit the nutplate. It would be acceptable if you had them. The closest thing we have is the MK319-BS rivet, that is 7/64", so you'd have to drill out the nutplate to 7/64". That actually MAY work, but the nutplate wouldn't be as strong...not that it needs extreme strength though. It also wouldn't be as pretty. I don't know if everyone has one of those small flat squeezer sets, but it worked perfectly for the task...just took some thinking as to how to get to that solution. The squeezer set I used is only as wide as the squeezer shaft itself. it's come in handy a few times on the kit. You're right though, on nutplates, they don't need a heck of a lot of rivet to hold them. It's just an anti-rotation thing. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 McGANN, Ron wrote: > > Hi Tim, > > Dumb question I guess, but why would a pop rivet be unacceptable in the > 'impossible holes' in the baggage door attach bracket?? I'm happy to be > re-educated here but I thought the main reason for riveting the nutplates > was to centre the plate and prevent rotation during bolt > installation/removal (since the nut plate acts like a 'nut' once the bolt is > tightened). Does the nutplate really need the strength of two solid rivets? > > > cheers, > Ron > #187 Wings > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:46 PM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > > > I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB > fuse, by the way. > > #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. > There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not > accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, > find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill > a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the > rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else > you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html > > > The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the > rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely > inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the > location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html > Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT > worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the > other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in > from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet > sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave > them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... > then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) > > Tim > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DejaVu" <wvu(at)mail.ameritel.net>
<429BF19A.2070604(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Date: May 31, 2005
products. I drilled the holes like Tim did, one under each "ear" of the nutplate, and back-riveted the nutplate on. Anh #141 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > Ron, > > It's not that it's a strength issue. The problem is, there are no > provided countersunk pop rivets in 3/32" to fit the nutplate. It > would be acceptable if you had them. The closest thing we have > is the MK319-BS rivet, that is 7/64", so you'd have to drill out > the nutplate to 7/64". That actually MAY work, but the nutplate > wouldn't be as strong...not that it needs extreme strength though. > It also wouldn't be as pretty. I don't know if everyone has one > of those small flat squeezer sets, but it worked perfectly for the > task...just took some thinking as to how to get to that solution. > The squeezer set I used is only as wide as the squeezer shaft itself. > it's come in handy a few times on the kit. > > You're right though, on nutplates, they don't need a heck of a lot > of rivet to hold them. It's just an anti-rotation thing. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > McGANN, Ron wrote: > > > > Hi Tim, > > > > Dumb question I guess, but why would a pop rivet be unacceptable in the > > 'impossible holes' in the baggage door attach bracket?? I'm happy to be > > re-educated here but I thought the main reason for riveting the nutplates > > was to centre the plate and prevent rotation during bolt > > installation/removal (since the nut plate acts like a 'nut' once the bolt is > > tightened). Does the nutplate really need the strength of two solid rivets? > > > > > > cheers, > > Ron > > #187 Wings > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson > > Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:46 PM > > To: RV10 > > Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > > > > > > > I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB > > fuse, by the way. > > > > #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. > > There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not > > accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, > > find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill > > a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the > > rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else > > you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. > > > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html > > > > > > The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the > > rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely > > inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the > > location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html > > Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT > > worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the > > other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in > > from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet > > sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave > > them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... > > then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) > > > > Tim > > > > > --- > > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: Filling pin holes
Date: May 31, 2005
We used Smooth Prime by Poly Fiber. It fills the pinholes very well and sands easy. We used a squeegee to put it on the first coat and if we had to do it again we would squeegee on a second coat as well to finish filling. We had 0 pinholes when we primed after this. If you prime with pinholes in the fiberglass they will show up like crazy. If you Smooth Prime, then prime, then use some kind of filler (could be smooth prime again) to fill in any pinholes that show up, that should work. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Subject: RV10-List: Filling pin holes What's everyone doing/using to fill the pin holes? I use epoxy with mircro baloons. I don't mind sanding but this stuff is hard as a rock after it cures and a bear to sand. Of course I have filler over 75% of the working surface because I see pin holes everywhere. Can smaller holes be ignored because the primer will fill them later? I'm thinking there might be an easier way or softer filler available to speed up the sanding. Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: Filling pin holes
Date: May 31, 2005
We used Smooth Prime by Poly Fiber. It fills the pinholes very well and sands easy. We used a squeegee to put it on the first coat and if we had to do it again we would squeegee on a second coat as well to finish filling. We had 0 pinholes when we primed after this. If you prime with pinholes in the fiberglass they will show up like crazy. If you Smooth Prime, then prime, then use some kind of filler (could be smooth prime again) to fill in any pinholes that show up, that should work. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Subject: RV10-List: Filling pin holes What's everyone doing/using to fill the pin holes? I use epoxy with mircro baloons. I don't mind sanding but this stuff is hard as a rock after it cures and a bear to sand. Of course I have filler over 75% of the working surface because I see pin holes everywhere. Can smaller holes be ignored because the primer will fill them later? I'm thinking there might be an easier way or softer filler available to speed up the sanding. Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get signed off to fly? I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's to accompany my registration. From my research, no bill of sale is required if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of registration, attach a letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate." Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of the certificate of registration for my sign-off? Thanks! Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Yes, you need to have it registered and have the original before the inspection. Yes, you need a bill of sale. They changed the "rules" for kit planes some time ago to require it. You'll also need the affidavit. Don't fight it unless you've got a lot of time to kill as you could risk getting your registration delayed. Call Van's and ask for the BOS - they are set up to do it quickly and will probably have it in your hands in a couple days. If you plan to use a DAR he should be able to provide you with a packet of info on all the steps you'll need to take before he shows up (there are others such as the program letter.) The FAA also has an info packet on the process. I wouldn't plan on being able to expedite the process. Just get all the paperwork right the first time and get it subemitted as quickly as possible and hope for the best. Good luck. Greg ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get signed off to fly? I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's to accompany my registration. From my research, no bill of sale is required if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of registration, attach a letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate." Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of the certificate of registration for my sign-off? Thanks! Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Greg, I have now put my money down on all majory components from Van's. The Airframe is completely delivered, I have the FWF kit paid for an coming, and the Prop has a deposit down. My question is this: When asking for the Bill of Sale, which numbers do I really want? Should I get a complete bill of sale for all parts large and small from Van's, or only the major airframe sub-kits? Like when I fill in the FAA paperwork, will I need a Bill of Sale from Van's for all items, plus one from Aerosport for the engine, plus one from the Avionics suppliers? Just trying to get a feel for what I should be getting, since I should soon be able to request that from Van's just to get a jump on gathering papers and forms. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Greg Young wrote: > Yes, you need to have it registered and have the original before the > inspection. Yes, you need a bill of sale. They changed the "rules" > for kit planes some time ago to require it. You'll also need the > affidavit. Don't fight it unless you've got a lot of time to kill as > you could risk getting your registration delayed. Call Van's and ask > for the BOS - they are set up to do it quickly and will probably have > it in your hands in a couple days. If you plan to use a DAR he should > be able to provide you with a packet of info on all the steps you'll > need to take before he shows up (there are others such as the program > letter.) The FAA also has an info packet on the process. I wouldn't > plan on being able to expedite the process. Just get all the > paperwork right the first time and get it subemitted as quickly as > possible and hope for the best. Good luck. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint > Sent: Tue 5/31/2005 5:28 AM To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Subject: > RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft > > > > I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off > process in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register > the airplane before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you > actually have to have your certificate of registration back from the > FAA before you can get signed off to fly? I was told that I have to > get a bill-of-sale from Van's to accompany my registration. From my > research, no bill of sale is required if I built more than 50% of the > plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very highly resembles a plane > that over 400 other people are working on, but I built it and I can > call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the builder so I > don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I need a > copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different > views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the > affidavit to be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of > registration, attach a letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 > weeks for a certificate." > > > > Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent > in? Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I > keep) copy of the certificate of registration for my sign-off? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse(at)itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Kirkland" <jskirkland(at)webpipe.net>
Subject: Re: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
Seems like the FAA registry site says you use the invoice/receipt for the kit manufacturer as the bill of sale. The FAA website has all the forms in a downloadable format, and all the ACs that are in the info packet, in pdf format on their website. They also have examples of how they expect the forms to be filled out. The Airworthiness Inspector at your local FAA FSDO is a person one should be talking to during the building process so you know what to expect at the end when you actually get inspected. Sign-off is way too late, IMHO. My local FSDO guys were glad to talk to me and discuss what they expected to see on an IFR-operated homebuilt. John Kirkland #40333 Jesse Saint writes: > I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process > in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane > before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to > have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get > signed off to fly? I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's > to accompany my registration. From my research, no bill of sale is required > if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very > highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I > built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the > builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I > need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different > views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to > be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of registration, attach a > letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate." > > > > Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? > Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of > the certificate of registration for my sign-off? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse(at)itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Note that one of the forms is in triplicate or something, so the FAA will not accept a version printed from an electronic file. You must get the original form from the FAA. (I can't recall the number off the top of me head . . .) TDT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Kirkland Subject: Re: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft Seems like the FAA registry site says you use the invoice/receipt for the kit manufacturer as the bill of sale. The FAA website has all the forms in a downloadable format, and all the ACs that are in the info packet, in pdf format on their website. They also have examples of how they expect the forms to be filled out. The Airworthiness Inspector at your local FAA FSDO is a person one should be talking to during the building process so you know what to expect at the end when you actually get inspected. Sign-off is way too late, IMHO. My local FSDO guys were glad to talk to me and discuss what they expected to see on an IFR-operated homebuilt. John Kirkland #40333 Jesse Saint writes: > I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process > in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane > before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to > have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get > signed off to fly? I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's > to accompany my registration. From my research, no bill of sale is required > if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very > highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I > built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the > builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I > need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different > views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to > be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of registration, attach a > letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate." > > > > Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? > Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of > the certificate of registration for my sign-off? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse(at)itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: More Missing QB Fuse Parts
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Tim, A little minor help - the blocks that F-6114B&C are made from were actually supplied as part of the tail kits. The parts aren't marked by number but the dimensions are there to match up. Time to dust off that stuff... > F-6114B and F-6114C: These are blocks that go in the rear baggage > wall...I think for friction prevention where the seat belt cables come > through the rear wall. 2 each are required on P. 33-10, none are in > inventory. Bob #40105 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
I just got off the phone with Andrew at TruTrak to verify a bit of functionality regarding Autopilot selection esp. in regards to the Chelton system that I got. I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR using a NAV signal. If you do NOT have a Chelton system not all of this is possible at this time (Although I believe the GRT stuff will let you do the lateral navigation...just not the vertical at this time). The issue is that the TruTrak is a digital autopilot, and therefore needs a digital signal. The ILS is an analog signal out of the Nav Radio. But, if you interface something like the SL-30 to the Chelton, now the Chelton receives the NAV signal, and you use the Chelton to control the autopilot digitally. So, you now have the capability. He also verified that IF you have a Chelton, there is nothing that you will gain of any significance by going to a Sorcerer at this time, since you obtain a full feature set in conjunction with the Chelton. "Save your money" was the word. Of course, you can spend the extra if you wish. Yes, the Digiflight IIVSVG WITH the Chelton can do Altitude Pre-select right now. The DFIIVSVG will also be getting an upgrade in the near future to add Altitude pre-select to it directly, without the Chelton. One other area that is still fuzzy was this: The GNS480 may possibly be able to also control the DFIIVSVG Vertical nav control. It will depend on if the GNS480 outputs a digital signal for the GPS approach and the ILS approach, or just the GPS. If I learn more I'll pass it on. He was also in agreement with my plan to have a selection switch on my panel that allows me to select which system is the input to my Autopilot. Like a switch for "Chelton <---> GNS480". That way you can lose the Chelton and still have whatever function in relation to the GNS480 that you have. As far as his stance on the legality of this all, he feels it's legal to fly their autopilot coupled to the Chelton's system for an ILS, or a GPS approach. He understands (as I have been finding) that some of these issues depend on who you talk to, because there is always the person on each extreme...one who insists the whole panel must be TSO'd, and one who thinks that since we're homebuilt that anything goes. I don't know that we'll ever 100% conclusively answer those questions. I hesitate to take a manufacturer's word on it, but hey, it's not like even people at the FAA haven't had differing opinions from time to time, right? Anyway, this email isn't really about legal status's, but functionality. So, those who spend the money on a Chelton, can save over $3,000 up front on their autopilot because they won't need the sorcerer. -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: Filling pin holes
DejaVu wrote: > What's everyone doing/using to fill the pin holes? I use epoxy with > mircro baloons. I don't mind sanding but this stuff is hard as a rock > after it cures and a bear to sand. Of course I have filler over 75% of > the working surface because I see pin holes everywhere. Can smaller > holes be ignored because the primer will fill them later? I'm thinking > there might be an easier way or softer filler available to speed up the > sanding. > Anh > #141 I was just reading an article last night in the new Kitplanes about this (about painting your aircraft, but it talks about this). Ted Setzer from Glasair Aviation recommended using spackle, believe it or not. You might want to read over the article to get more detail out of it. From what I read, you do want to fill them in, as the they will show through the paint later if you don't. Bear in mind I am just repeating what I remember from the article - I have ZERO experience with this myself. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
The FAA form 8050-2: It's done in duplicate with the physical form or could be processed from the web at http://registry.faa.gov/docs/8050-2.pdf. A lot of FBOs that have planes for sale keep an inventory supply of them in printed version or you can attempt a trip to your FSDO which keeps a supply, if you make an appointment (Post 9/11). Don't know if they are now rejecting their pdf format version electronically. John Cox - retired DPE -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft Note that one of the forms is in triplicate or something, so the FAA will not accept a version printed from an electronic file. You must get the original form from the FAA. (I can't recall the number off the top of me head . . .) TDT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Kirkland Subject: Re: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft Seems like the FAA registry site says you use the invoice/receipt for the kit manufacturer as the bill of sale. The FAA website has all the forms in a downloadable format, and all the ACs that are in the info packet, in pdf format on their website. They also have examples of how they expect the forms to be filled out. The Airworthiness Inspector at your local FAA FSDO is a person one should be talking to during the building process so you know what to expect at the end when you actually get inspected. Sign-off is way too late, IMHO. My local FSDO guys were glad to talk to me and discuss what they expected to see on an IFR-operated homebuilt. John Kirkland #40333 Jesse Saint writes: > I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process > in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane > before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to > have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get > signed off to fly? I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's > to accompany my registration. From my research, no bill of sale is required > if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very > highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I > built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the > builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I > need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different > views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to > be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of registration, attach a > letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate." > > > > Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? > Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of > the certificate of registration for my sign-off? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse(at)itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter(at)grandecom.net>
Subject: Re: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
Date: May 31, 2005
Thanks for the research info Tim. You may have just saved me some money that I can spend on Tequila :>} It's different than what they told me when I talked to them at Sun-N-Fun, but maybe I had to much Tequila that day. Wayne E RV-10 #336 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> Subject: RV10-List: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update > > I just got off the phone with Andrew at TruTrak to verify > a bit of functionality regarding Autopilot selection esp. in > regards to the Chelton system that I got. > > I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, > and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach > with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach > with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR > using a NAV signal. If you do NOT have a Chelton system not all of > this is possible at this time (Although I believe the GRT stuff will > let you do the lateral navigation...just not the vertical at this time). > > The issue is that the TruTrak is a digital autopilot, and therefore > needs a digital signal. The ILS is an analog signal out of the > Nav Radio. But, if you interface something like the SL-30 to the > Chelton, now the Chelton receives the NAV signal, and you use the > Chelton to control the autopilot digitally. So, you now have the > capability. > > He also verified that IF you have a Chelton, there is nothing > that you will gain of any significance by going to a Sorcerer > at this time, since you obtain a full feature set in conjunction > with the Chelton. "Save your money" was the word. Of course, > you can spend the extra if you wish. > > Yes, the Digiflight IIVSVG WITH the Chelton can do Altitude Pre-select > right now. The DFIIVSVG will also be getting an upgrade in the > near future to add Altitude pre-select to it directly, without > the Chelton. > > One other area that is still fuzzy was this: The GNS480 may possibly > be able to also control the DFIIVSVG Vertical nav control. It will > depend on if the GNS480 outputs a digital signal for the GPS approach > and the ILS approach, or just the GPS. If I learn more I'll pass > it on. > > He was also in agreement with my plan to have a selection switch on > my panel that allows me to select which system is the input to my > Autopilot. Like a switch for "Chelton <---> GNS480". That way > you can lose the Chelton and still have whatever function in relation > to the GNS480 that you have. > > As far as his stance on the legality of this all, he feels it's legal > to fly their autopilot coupled to the Chelton's system for an ILS, > or a GPS approach. He understands (as I have been finding) that some > of these issues depend on who you talk to, because there is always > the person on each extreme...one who insists the whole panel must > be TSO'd, and one who thinks that since we're homebuilt that anything > goes. I don't know that we'll ever 100% conclusively answer those > questions. I hesitate to take a manufacturer's word on it, but hey, > it's not like even people at the FAA haven't had differing opinions > from time to time, right? Anyway, this email isn't really about > legal status's, but functionality. > > So, those who spend the money on a Chelton, can save over $3,000 up > front on their autopilot because they won't need the sorcerer. > > -- > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Don't freak on the Bill of Sale. It's the FAA carbon paper triplicate form that forms the basis of the ownership trail. It does not contain a dollar figure. You need the "official" form which Van's will provide. They type "Kit Plane" across the top and their name as seller and yours as buyer (actually it make be blank, it's been a while) and send it to you. All you need to provide them is your builder number and confirm your address. I believe they want you to have ordered the finish kit before they will send it. Make sure the form has the legal name(s) the way you want to register the aircraft. All other forms following it will need to match the names and aircraft exactly. There is a bunch of info on registering in the RV-List archives. This is certainly an area where you guys can take advantage of the 2-place (remember them?:-) archives rather than re-learning the process. Greg ________________________________ Greg, I have now put my money down on all majory components from Van's. The Airframe is completely delivered, I have the FWF kit paid for an coming, and the Prop has a deposit down. My question is this: When asking for the Bill of Sale, which numbers do I really want? Should I get a complete bill of sale for all parts large and small from Van's, or only the major airframe sub-kits? Like when I fill in the FAA paperwork, will I need a Bill of Sale from Van's for all items, plus one from Aerosport for the engine, plus one from the Avionics suppliers? Just trying to get a feel for what I should be getting, since I should soon be able to request that from Van's just to get a jump on gathering papers and forms. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Greg Young wrote: > Yes, you need to have it registered and have the original before the > inspection. Yes, you need a bill of sale. They changed the "rules" > for kit planes some time ago to require it. You'll also need the > affidavit. Don't fight it unless you've got a lot of time to kill as > you could risk getting your registration delayed. Call Van's and ask > for the BOS - they are set up to do it quickly and will probably have > it in your hands in a couple days. If you plan to use a DAR he should > be able to provide you with a packet of info on all the steps you'll > need to take before he shows up (there are others such as the program > letter.) The FAA also has an info packet on the process. I wouldn't > plan on being able to expedite the process. Just get all the > paperwork right the first time and get it subemitted as quickly as > possible and hope for the best. Good luck. > > Greg > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com>
Tim, you and I seem to be at the same sport. I ended up doing the same thing for the nutplates on the baggage door jam. I drilled the rivet hole to come out the back and then enlarged this hole to 1/4" and back riveted it using a hammer and punch on a backing plate. As for the most forward rivet on the rear side seat pans, I also left this rivet out. I called Van's about it and explain to Bruce there is no way to get this rivet because you can't get to either side of the rivet with the gun. He went on to say you can use a pop rivet at a 15 degree angle, but I said it would be more like a 70 degree angle and it wouldn't work. If you look at the drawing that show the rear floor pan, you will notice they don't even show this hole exists, so I wonder if this was added later not thinking about how it would be set. Thank You Ray Doerr 40250 Floor Pans all rivet on. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB fuse, by the way. #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com>
The bill of sales from Van's does not have any prices for any kits on it. It merely states that you purchased a kit with the model number. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft Greg, I have now put my money down on all majory components from Van's. The Airframe is completely delivered, I have the FWF kit paid for an coming, and the Prop has a deposit down. My question is this: When asking for the Bill of Sale, which numbers do I really want? Should I get a complete bill of sale for all parts large and small from Van's, or only the major airframe sub-kits? Like when I fill in the FAA paperwork, will I need a Bill of Sale from Van's for all items, plus one from Aerosport for the engine, plus one from the Avionics suppliers? Just trying to get a feel for what I should be getting, since I should soon be able to request that from Van's just to get a jump on gathering papers and forms. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Greg Young wrote: > Yes, you need to have it registered and have the original before the > inspection. Yes, you need a bill of sale. They changed the "rules" > for kit planes some time ago to require it. You'll also need the > affidavit. Don't fight it unless you've got a lot of time to kill as > you could risk getting your registration delayed. Call Van's and ask > for the BOS - they are set up to do it quickly and will probably have > it in your hands in a couple days. If you plan to use a DAR he should > be able to provide you with a packet of info on all the steps you'll > need to take before he shows up (there are others such as the program > letter.) The FAA also has an info packet on the process. I wouldn't > plan on being able to expedite the process. Just get all the > paperwork right the first time and get it subemitted as quickly as > possible and hope for the best. Good luck. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint > Sent: Tue 5/31/2005 5:28 AM To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Subject: > RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft > > > > I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off > process in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register > the airplane before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you > actually have to have your certificate of registration back from the > FAA before you can get signed off to fly? I was told that I have to > get a bill-of-sale from Van's to accompany my registration. From my > research, no bill of sale is required if I built more than 50% of the > plane myself, which I did. Yes, it very highly resembles a plane > that over 400 other people are working on, but I built it and I can > call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? I am the builder so I > don't need a bill-of-sale? Some places it seems to say that I need a > copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different > views of the plane. Other places it just says, "fill out the > affidavit to be named as the builder, fill out a certificate of > registration, attach a letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 > weeks for a certificate." > > > > Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent > in? Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I > keep) copy of the certificate of registration for my sign-off? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse(at)itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Wow, we really are at the same exact spot! Hey, can you send your photos again? The first one came out all screwy. Very pretty inside with that gold primer. I wish I'd have gone that route on the fuselage I think. All of my green will be hidden though, and at least it'll be easy to see stuff leaking on it. You're QB or slow build? Must be quick to be that far, huh? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote: > Tim, you and I seem to be at the same sport. I ended up doing > the same thing for the nutplates on the baggage door jam. I drilled the > rivet hole to come out the back and then enlarged this hole to 1/4" and > back riveted it using a hammer and punch on a backing plate. > As for the most forward rivet on the rear side seat pans, I also > left this rivet out. I called Van's about it and explain to Bruce there > is no way to get this rivet because you can't get to either side of the > rivet with the gun. He went on to say you can use a pop rivet at a 15 > degree angle, but I said it would be more like a 70 degree angle and it > wouldn't work. If you look at the drawing that show the rear floor pan, > you will notice they don't even show this hole exists, so I wonder if > this was added later not thinking about how it would be set. > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > 40250 Floor Pans all rivet on. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:16 PM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > > I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB > fuse, by the way. > > #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. > There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not > accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, > find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill > a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the > rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else > you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html > > > The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the > rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely > inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the > location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html > Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT > worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the > other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in > from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet > sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave > them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... > then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) > > Tim > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark & Kelly" <eyedocs1(at)swbell.net>
Subject: Re: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
Date: May 31, 2005
"I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR using a NAV signal." Tim, Thanks for the report. I wonder where the Digiflight gets it's vertical guidance for a GPS approach. Is it from the HITS? I know with HITS, any runway can be chosen and it will give you the nice little boxes down to the TDZ. Maybe this is where it comes from? Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark & Kelly" <eyedocs1(at)swbell.net>
Subject: Re: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
Date: May 31, 2005
Tim, I posted this message earlier, but it never showed up, so here it is again: "I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR using a NAV signal." Thanks for the report. I wonder where the Digiflight gets it's vertical guidance for a GPS approach. Is it from the HITS? I know with HITS, any runway can be chosen and it will give you the nice little boxes down to the TDZ. Maybe this is where it comes from? Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com>
Give me a call any time on my Cell. 913) 226-0106 I'm slow build all the way. It has taken me 3 months and 300 hours to get the fuse to the Quick Build stage. I figure that means I made $5350/300 or $17.83 an hour. The primer is PPG Armor Grip and I love the way it looks and applies. It sticks very well to just a clean alcad surface. I currently have 890 hours in on my project. I'm thinking I am almost at the half way point. I am expecting to be flying in 2000 hours with everything painted and completed. I am targeting fall of 06 for first flight, how about you? Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost Wow, we really are at the same exact spot! Hey, can you send your photos again? The first one came out all screwy. Very pretty inside with that gold primer. I wish I'd have gone that route on the fuselage I think. All of my green will be hidden though, and at least it'll be easy to see stuff leaking on it. You're QB or slow build? Must be quick to be that far, huh? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote: > Tim, you and I seem to be at the same sport. I ended up doing > the same thing for the nutplates on the baggage door jam. I drilled the > rivet hole to come out the back and then enlarged this hole to 1/4" and > back riveted it using a hammer and punch on a backing plate. > As for the most forward rivet on the rear side seat pans, I also > left this rivet out. I called Van's about it and explain to Bruce there > is no way to get this rivet because you can't get to either side of the > rivet with the gun. He went on to say you can use a pop rivet at a 15 > degree angle, but I said it would be more like a 70 degree angle and it > wouldn't work. If you look at the drawing that show the rear floor pan, > you will notice they don't even show this hole exists, so I wonder if > this was added later not thinking about how it would be set. > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > 40250 Floor Pans all rivet on. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:16 PM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > > I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB > fuse, by the way. > > #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. > There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not > accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, > find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill > a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the > rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else > you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html > > > The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the > rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely > inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the > location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html > Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT > worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the > other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in > from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet > sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave > them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... > then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) > > Tim > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2005
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
I should clarify that....for a GPS approach, I'm intending to mean GPS WAAS where there is a "glideslope" to fly via GPS. A plain-vanilla GPS approach wouldn't necessarily be included. You're right about the HITS though. Basically, you leave the AP in a mode that is used for GPSS and GPS control, and it will take both lateral and vertical commands from the Chelton. So whatever you tell the chelton to fly should be able to be flown by the autopilot....including minimum altitude on the chelton, and such. Your Chelton system is in command of the autopilot. That's why I'd still put in the switch to allow you to have the autopilot controlled directly from the GNS480....gives you more options. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Mark & Kelly wrote: > > "I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, > and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach > with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach > with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR > using a NAV signal." > > Tim, > Thanks for the report. I wonder where the Digiflight gets it's vertical > guidance for a GPS approach. Is it from the HITS? I know with HITS, > any runway can be chosen and it will give you the nice little boxes down > to the TDZ. Maybe this is where it comes from? > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Date: May 31, 2005
SSA)" Count me also as in almost exactly the same spot (all slow build). I just got to the section where brake pedals are made. I want to get paint on the interior before much gets in the way so I'll probably pause, put the rear seat backs together and then get paint on the interior before continuing. Bob #40105 -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RE: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost Give me a call any time on my Cell. 913) 226-0106 I'm slow build all the way. It has taken me 3 months and 300 hours to get the fuse to the Quick Build stage. I figure that means I made $5350/300 or $17.83 an hour. The primer is PPG Armor Grip and I love the way it looks and applies. It sticks very well to just a clean alcad surface. I currently have 890 hours in on my project. I'm thinking I am almost at the half way point. I am expecting to be flying in 2000 hours with everything painted and completed. I am targeting fall of 06 for first flight, how about you? Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr(at)mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost Wow, we really are at the same exact spot! Hey, can you send your photos again? The first one came out all screwy. Very pretty inside with that gold primer. I wish I'd have gone that route on the fuselage I think. All of my green will be hidden though, and at least it'll be easy to see stuff leaking on it. You're QB or slow build? Must be quick to be that far, huh? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote: > Tim, you and I seem to be at the same sport. I ended up doing > the same thing for the nutplates on the baggage door jam. I drilled the > rivet hole to come out the back and then enlarged this hole to 1/4" and > back riveted it using a hammer and punch on a backing plate. > As for the most forward rivet on the rear side seat pans, I also > left this rivet out. I called Van's about it and explain to Bruce there > is no way to get this rivet because you can't get to either side of the > rivet with the gun. He went on to say you can use a pop rivet at a 15 > degree angle, but I said it would be more like a 70 degree angle and it > wouldn't work. If you look at the drawing that show the rear floor pan, > you will notice they don't even show this hole exists, so I wonder if > this was added later not thinking about how it would be set. > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > 40250 Floor Pans all rivet on. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:16 PM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost > > > I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB > fuse, by the way. > > #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage. > There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not > accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however, > find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill > a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the > rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else > you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos. > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html > > > The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the > rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely > inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the > location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set. > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html > Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT > worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the > other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in > from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet > sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave > them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks... > then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :) > > Tim > > > > > > > > ==================================== ==================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: IO VS O-540s
Date: May 31, 2005
I searched the archives but couldn't find a specific discussion on this, so I apologize if it's redundant. I'm trying to decide on an O-540 vs IO-540 for my RV-10. Some thoughts I had were: Pluses for the IO-540: No icing problems More even burn between cylinders Pluses for the O-540 Cheaper to overhaul the fuel system Lower pressure aux fuel pump (ie much cheaper) Potential to use auto fuel I've had an IO-540 C4B5 before on my Skybolt and it was a great engine and I am leaning toward that for the RV-10. However I'd sure appreciate any other considerations, ideas and suggestions. Thanks, Marcus QB fuselage will be here Thursday! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: IO vs O-540s
Date: May 31, 2005
I searched the archives but couldn't find a specific discussion on this, so I apologize if it's redundant. I'm trying to decide on an O-540 vs IO-540 for my RV-10. Some thoughts I had were: Pluses for the IO-540: No icing problems More even burn between cylinders Pluses for the O-540 Cheaper to overhaul the fuel system Lower pressure aux fuel pump (ie much cheaper) Potential to use auto fuel I've had an IO-540 C4B5 before on my Skybolt and it was a great engine so I am leaning toward that for the RV-10. However I'd sure appreciate any other considerations, ideas and suggestions. Thanks, Marcus QB fuselage will be here Thursday! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rear Headset Jacks
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Here's a question for those that are almost finished - where are you locating the rear seat headset jacks? Has anybody noticed where Van's has them in the factory planes? Bob #40105 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy's Abros mail" <randy(at)abros.com>
Subject: If you are getting close to flying read this!
Date: May 31, 2005
I just wanted anyone who is getting close you need to make sure that you send in you registration form with your 5:00. This form is a must BEFORE YOU CAN HAVE AN INSPECTION!!. I know Doug has got caught on this and is waiting until the form comes back. It takes (best case) 3 weeks and figure on a month before you get the white Registration card back with the serial number of the air craft registered in your name. Randy By the way as of Monday night I have 18 hours on the plane and everything is working fine. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
You need some rudder in climb out but on Monday I did a climb to 9500 ft. and leveled off. I was still climbing at 1000 ft a min. at 9500 ft. I have myself and an additional 175 lbs of shot bags, 25 lbs of paperwork and laptop, and full fuel. That was cool seeing that climb rate that high. I think that the climb outs will be so short and the amount of rudder pressure is so light that it won't be worth the addition. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Kirkland Subject: RV10-List: Rudder Trim --> Hope Randy sees this now that there's a flying airplane in the group. I was wondering if anyone that has flown one of the RV-10's has thought that it needed a means of rudder trim? After flying 4.2 hrs XC yesterday it occurred to me that stepping on the ball during climbout gets old after a while, and I like the Cessna 182 rudder rim wheel so you can center the ball once climb is established and you're not so busy. Not sure if anyone would notice this in a quick demo flight, but by now I'm sure Randy would know! John Kirkland #40333 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
I talked to the factory guys about this and they think that every 10 will need almost the same amount of trim block or something else mounted on the rudder. This came after my comment that the plane fly's so much like the factory plane. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rudder Trim --> If you look at both of Vans -10s they have a fixed wedge screwed to the trailing edge of the rudder on the left side I think. I assume this was to provide some trim for right rudder deflection. Anyone else notice these..... John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Filling pin holes
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
I have what might be the best method. We use this method now and it works out very nice. Take some 3M Flowable finishing putty. Use 3M brand it is much easier to sand then the others. Mix it as usual and then thin it with Acetone until it is the consistency of paint. Use a small paint roller about 3" wide and roll it on a sanded cowl. If it isn't completely filled in spots you will see them and add another coat. This stuff sands easy. Use 150 grit and them prime with K36 or what ever high build primer you want. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Subject: RV10-List: Filling pin holes What's everyone doing/using to fill the pin holes? I use epoxy with mircro baloons. I don't mind sanding but this stuff is hard as a rock after it cures and a bear to sand. Of course I have filler over 75% of the working surface because I see pin holes everywhere. Can smaller holes be ignored because the primer will fill them later? I'm thinking there might be an easier way or softer filler available to speed up the sanding. Anh #141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: Registration of Home-Built Aircraft My reply is in red. Randy I have been learning a lot about this airplane registration/sign-off process in the last 2 days. I had no idea that you had to register the airplane before you could get the sign-off. Is it true that you actually have to have your certificate of registration back from the FAA before you can get signed off to fly? Yes you have to have it in hand. I was told that I have to get a bill-of-sale from Van's to accompany my registration. Yes you have to call Van's and they will mail you a certified Bill of Sale. From my research, no bill of sale is required if I built more than 50% of the plane myself, which I did. Not true by what I was told. Yes, it very highly resembles a plane that over 400 other people are working on, but I built it and I can call it an RV-10 or a JS-1 if I want, right? Yes you can call it what ever you want. I am the builder so I don't need a bill-of-sale? Wrong. You need the bill of sale proving whom you bought the Kit from. Some places it seems to say that I need a copy of my builder's log and pictures or drawings of the 3 different views of the plane. Yes you need 3 photos of the plane completed. One from each side with the N numbers in place and one from the front. The FAA keeps these on file for identification purposes. Other places it just says, "fill out the affidavit to be named as the builder You need to have the affidavit sent in with your registration form. The FAA uses the name on the affidavit as the builder. DO NOT PUT VAN'S OR VAN'S AIRCRAFT AS THE BUILDER. You are the builder is DEBAUW, RANDEL J. Model is RV10A fill out a certificate of registration, attach a letter to request a special N-number, wait 3-6 weeks for a certificate The registration form is only available at a FSDO or have it mailed to you by the FAA. You can't download it because it has carbon copy's Can anybody help me understand the steps and what all has to be sent in? Can I not operate with the pink (or yellow, or whatever copy I keep) copy of the certificate of registration for my sign-off? No you can't use the pink. It is not usable unless the you are changing registration of an existing plane. I will try to help anyone through this. It isn't easy but I did it so anyone can. Randy Thanks! Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update
Date: May 31, 2005
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com>
Good info Tim. I can tell everyone that now that I am using the Digiflight II VSG that it is very slick. It works just like you want it to. When you want it to do another function like climb at 500 ft a min. you just push ALT button and turn the knob to 500 ft up. If you want to descend turn the know the other direction. There is a little arrow showing which direction you want it to go up or down. If you want it to just keep you on present course just turn it on and it sees what course you are on an keeps you there with alt hold already on until you tell it to do something different. Hit the mode button and it tracks the gps. Hit mode again and it tracks the heading you are on again. Very Very easy to use. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: TruTrak / Chelton functionality update I just got off the phone with Andrew at TruTrak to verify a bit of functionality regarding Autopilot selection esp. in regards to the Chelton system that I got. I now have the 100% answer that yes, IF you have a Chelton system, and a Digiflight II VSVG, you will be able to fly an ILS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly a GPS approach with vertical guidance, and you will be able to fly to a VOR using a NAV signal. If you do NOT have a Chelton system not all of this is possible at this time (Although I believe the GRT stuff will let you do the lateral navigation...just not the vertical at this time). The issue is that the TruTrak is a digital autopilot, and therefore needs a digital signal. The ILS is an analog signal out of the Nav Radio. But, if you interface something like the SL-30 to the Chelton, now the Chelton receives the NAV signal, and you use the Chelton to control the autopilot digitally. So, you now have the capability. He also verified that IF you have a Chelton, there is nothing that you will gain of any significance by going to a Sorcerer at this time, since you obtain a full feature set in conjunction with the Chelton. "Save your money" was the word. Of course, you can spend the extra if you wish. Yes, the Digiflight IIVSVG WITH the Chelton can do Altitude Pre-select right now. The DFIIVSVG will also be getting an upgrade in the near future to add Altitude pre-select to it directly, without the Chelton. One other area that is still fuzzy was this: The GNS480 may possibly be able to also control the DFIIVSVG Vertical nav control. It will depend on if the GNS480 outputs a digital signal for the GPS approach and the ILS approach, or just the GPS. If I learn more I'll pass it on. He was also in agreement with my plan to have a selection switch on my panel that allows me to select which system is the input to my Autopilot. Like a switch for "Chelton <---> GNS480". That way you can lose the Chelton and still have whatever function in relation to the GNS480 that you have. As far as his stance on the legality of this all, he feels it's legal to fly their autopilot coupled to the Chelton's system for an ILS, or a GPS approach. He understands (as I have been finding) that some of these issues depend on who you talk to, because there is always the person on each extreme...one who insists the whole panel must be TSO'd, and one who thinks that since we're homebuilt that anything goes. I don't know that we'll ever 100% conclusively answer those questions. I hesitate to take a manufacturer's word on it, but hey, it's not like even people at the FAA haven't had differing opinions from time to time, right? Anyway, this email isn't really about legal status's, but functionality.

May 23, 2005 - May 31, 2005

RV10-Archive.digest.vol-ai