RV10-Archive.digest.vol-at
October 16, 2005 - November 02, 2005
The part is one of the nose ribs for the HS. Using the pneumatic
squeezer,
working too quickly, I punched a hole next to one that I was
trying to
dimple. It was so close to the original hole that it made a
bigger hole,
about 3/8 inch, but oblong in shape. Any suggestions as what to
do? An
oops rivets could not fill it if I were to drill it out. The
picture shows
the elongated hole in the foreground, with a correctly dimpled
hole on the
other side of the nose rib in the background.
John Jessen
40328 HS (Finally made up my mind and ordered the SB wings
today)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Laura Riley" <JIMANDLAURA(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elongated hole |
There's no reason to replace that rib. It's not that big of deal, and
it can be easily patched up.
As for building the perfect plane, unless you're the almighty one, it's
not going to happen. Every RV has an error or two on them. If you're
lucky, you'll be the only one the ever notices it/them.
The real question is, do you want to be a flyer or do you want to be a
builder??? I'm lucky because I get to fly for a living. So, I kind of
like the hobby of building. But, Van's makes it very easy for the
average person to be a flyer in a solid aircraft. To each their own.
Jim Riley
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Laura Riley" <JIMANDLAURA(at)peoplepc.com> |
I'm just getting started on the fuselage and I ran into something that
bothers me. Some of you will probably just scoff this and say that I'm
too anal, but I figured one of you would know the answer. On the aft
bulkhead that attaches to the spar, the plans calls for some of the
bolts to point aft and some of them to point forward. In other words,
if you look across the front you'll see some bolt heads and some nuts.
The convention that I was taught is that bolts should point down or aft,
if possible. I'm just wondering if it really matters which direction
the bolts point or does Van's have some grand plan that I don't know
about (most likely) and I should just stick to the plans;-)
Thanks,
Jim Riley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Box/Filter |
Jesse,
After reading the non-RV10-style instructions more carefully, especially the chicken-scratch
sketches, I realized the same. Thanks! It is fun stuff.:(
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Air Box/Filter
It's pinched in place by the glass box and the top plate, I believe. That pressure
is part of making the airbox. Fun stuff!
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 1:23 AM
To: RV10
Subject: RV10-List: Air Box/Filter
The airbox content includes a base plate which is above the filter, an airbox
top plate which the base plate is screwed to. These two plates are attached
to the injector body. And the glass box itself which is attached to the top
plate via rivets on the side of the box.
How is the air filter kept in its place?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Perry Casson <pcasson(at)sasktel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wings problems |
I've learned no more on this than the following from a month ago....
Perry Casson
Just a short update regarding the report of Canadian inspectors failing
RV-10 wings on preclose inspection. Unfortunately I've still not got
names or kits numbers so I've not verified anything with the builders
but here's the info I've received:
- At least two kits were affected.
- All reported defects were under driven shop heads on the 5/16 rivets
on the main spars
- The problems were only found on fast build wings.
I'm got the calipers out to check my slow build spars and found all the
rivets were well within spec. as I suspected.
With the tanks off this should be no big deal to fix but I'd not be a
happy guy to get this flagged as a defect during final inspection.
gommone7(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>About a month ago some body say where problems in Canada regarding spars riveting,was
any follow up .I thinks I will recive mine an a month ,and like to know
if the problem was real.
>Hugo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lycoming O/IO-540 For sale |
| From: | "Condon, Philip M." <pcondon(at)mitre.org> |
Since I have decided not to build a RV-10, my engine needs a new home.
I have a O/IO-540 E4B5/C4B5 that is a match for a RV-10. This engine
can be configured with a carb or fuel injection - everything else
internal to the engine is the same according to the Lycoming data
sheets and Vans. 21,900$ for a first run Mattituck new limits overhaul,
2800TT, 300 SMOH. I had the engine back to Mattituck for a IRAN and
test cell run prior to my purchase. All accessories, starter, Bendix
RSA fuel injector, correct carb should you want to run a low pressure
fuel system, yellow tagged (RV-10/Rocket set up) prop governor,
governor cable stand-off and paperwork. Pictures available and more
detailed log data of course..........
Please contact off list. Phil in south NJ 609-654-9587 609-272-4037
Phil Condon RV-4 N41RV & RV-8 N800RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted on RV list" <ted_french(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Lycoming O/IO-540 For sale |
Listers
I have run into a problem making my single stage self etching primer adhere
to some of the parts. At first I thought I had contaminated some of the
parts with bad acetone. I dumped the rest and started a new can. I have
changes to new cans of primer, replaced my scotch brite pads with new, and
started a new roll of paper towels. I scuff each part and then clean it with
acetone before spraying. This has worked well for the whole plane so far,
and this is my third plane. Has anyone else run into this problem.? I'm
starting to wonder if the aluminum is contaminated right from Van's. Problem
first showed up when doing the rear spar bulkhead and has now re-appeared on
the ribs that hold the seat belt anchors. Zinc chromate seems to stick OK,
and thats what I ended up using on the bulkhead, but I prefer to use the
primer.
I'm going nuts with this....
Thoughts.
Ted French
RV-10 wings wiiting for inspection, fuselage started...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted on RV list" <ted_french(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Primer problems..... |
Listers
I have run into a problem making my single stage self etching primer adhere
to some of the parts. At first I thought I had contaminated some of the
parts with bad acetone. I dumped the rest and started a new can. I have
changes to new cans of primer, replaced my scotch brite pads with new, and
started a new roll of paper towels. I scuff each part and then clean it with
acetone before spraying. This has worked well for the whole plane so far,
and this is my third plane. Has anyone else run into this problem.? I'm
starting to wonder if the aluminum is contaminated right from Van's. Problem
first showed up when doing the rear spar bulkhead and has now re-appeared on
the ribs that hold the seat belt anchors. Zinc chromate seems to stick OK,
and thats what I ended up using on the bulkhead, but I prefer to use the
primer.
I'm going nuts with this....
Thoughts.
Ted French
RV-10 wings waiting for inspection, fuselage started...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Primer problems..... |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
I started out using acetone and found that it actually does a poor job
cleaning because it flashes off very quickly frequently leaving a
residue. Using a degreaser actually works much better, just about any
of the paint manufactures also make a cleaner/degreaser. I've also
heard of folks using naptha (Coleman lantern fluid) with good success.
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted on RV
list
Subject: RV10-List: Primer problems.....
Listers
I have run into a problem making my single stage self etching primer
adhere
to some of the parts. At first I thought I had contaminated some of the
parts with bad acetone. I dumped the rest and started a new can. I have
changes to new cans of primer, replaced my scotch brite pads with new,
and
started a new roll of paper towels. I scuff each part and then clean it
with
acetone before spraying. This has worked well for the whole plane so
far,
and this is my third plane. Has anyone else run into this problem.? I'm
starting to wonder if the aluminum is contaminated right from Van's.
Problem
first showed up when doing the rear spar bulkhead and has now
re-appeared on
the ribs that hold the seat belt anchors. Zinc chromate seems to stick
OK,
and thats what I ended up using on the bulkhead, but I prefer to use the
primer.
I'm going nuts with this....
Thoughts.
Ted French
RV-10 wings waiting for inspection, fuselage started...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Primer problems..... |
The best is Isopropyl alcohol
hugo
>
> From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
> Date: 2005/10/17 Mon PM 03:32:00 EDT
> To:
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Primer problems.....
>
>
> I started out using acetone and found that it actually does a poor job
> cleaning because it flashes off very quickly frequently leaving a
> residue. Using a degreaser actually works much better, just about any
> of the paint manufactures also make a cleaner/degreaser. I've also
> heard of folks using naptha (Coleman lantern fluid) with good success.
>
> Bob #40105
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted on RV
> list
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:01 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Primer problems.....
>
>
>
>
> Listers
>
> I have run into a problem making my single stage self etching primer
> adhere
> to some of the parts. At first I thought I had contaminated some of the
> parts with bad acetone. I dumped the rest and started a new can. I have
> changes to new cans of primer, replaced my scotch brite pads with new,
> and
> started a new roll of paper towels. I scuff each part and then clean it
> with
> acetone before spraying. This has worked well for the whole plane so
> far,
> and this is my third plane. Has anyone else run into this problem.? I'm
> starting to wonder if the aluminum is contaminated right from Van's.
> Problem
> first showed up when doing the rear spar bulkhead and has now
> re-appeared on
> the ribs that hold the seat belt anchors. Zinc chromate seems to stick
> OK,
> and thats what I ended up using on the bulkhead, but I prefer to use the
> primer.
>
> I'm going nuts with this....
>
> Thoughts.
>
> Ted French
> RV-10 wings waiting for inspection, fuselage started...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com> |
| Subject: | Lycoming O/IO-540 For sale |
Ted,
Assuming you are using the rattle can primers. I too noticed this.
One thing I noticed is moisture will affect the adhesion. If you take a part out
of an air conditioned space (Cool / dry) to the outside for priming, you need
to allow the part to warm up. As you prime it, the part will get pretty cool
as the solvent evaporates. If it cools enough for moisture to condense from
the air, the primer will not stick. I have found two methods to help with this
problem:
(1) Take the parts out to direct sunlight and allow them to heat up both before
and after priming. (It helps the drying time a bunch!) You can even set up
some heat lamps to warm up the parts outside.
(2) If you can't do 1, then do light coats so the part does not cool significantly.
Moisture seems to really affect end results.
You may have a different issue, but this is what I have found.
Jim Combs
#40192, N312F - Fuselage
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Ted on RV list" <ted_french(at)telus.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:45 -0700
Listers
I have run into a problem making my single stage self etching primer adhere
to some of the parts. At first I thought I had contaminated some of the
parts with bad acetone. I dumped the rest and started a new can. I have
changes to new cans of primer, replaced my scotch brite pads with new, and
started a new roll of paper towels. I scuff each part and then clean it with
acetone before spraying. This has worked well for the whole plane so far,
and this is my third plane. Has anyone else run into this problem.? I'm
starting to wonder if the aluminum is contaminated right from Van's. Problem
first showed up when doing the rear spar bulkhead and has now re-appeared on
the ribs that hold the seat belt anchors. Zinc chromate seems to stick OK,
and thats what I ended up using on the bulkhead, but I prefer to use the
primer.
I'm going nuts with this....
Thoughts.
Ted French
RV-10 wings wiiting for inspection, fuselage started...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVFOURME(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Primer problems.....Primer problems..... |
Having built two RV-4's over the past 20 years, the final cure to adhesion
problems with primer is to wash your aluminum with Hydrofluoric Acid prior to
priming. This is strong stuff. You need to wear a respirator and good gloves,
but there is nothing better for etching and cleaning the alclad aluminum just
before priming. My bottle is quite old now, but I obtained my acid from:
Sierra Chemicals in West Sacramento, Ca. Their name of the product is Aluminex
200HF. Happy painting !
Craig P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVFOURME(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Primer problems..... |
One followup on the hydrofluoric acid: always wear goggles and pull up the
Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and other related safety handling material
before using this......it is potentially dangerous.
craig p
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
As I understand, the instructions for the airbox are pretty much the plans
format used for building the lower-number RV's. I am glad that they got out
of that format. What a pain. The -10 plans are awesome!
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Air Box/Filter
Jesse,
After reading the non-RV10-style instructions more carefully, especially the
chicken-scratch sketches, I realized the same. Thanks! It is fun stuff.:(
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Air Box/Filter
It's pinched in place by the glass box and the top plate, I believe. That
pressure is part of making the airbox. Fun stuff!
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Subject: RV10-List: Air Box/Filter
The airbox content includes a base plate which is above the filter, an
airbox top plate which the base plate is screwed to. These two plates are
attached to the injector body. And the glass box itself which is attached
to the top plate via rivets on the side of the box.
How is the air filter kept in its place?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Comcast" <kenbpeck(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: solder or crimp?? |
While I'm a ways away from serious wiring, you can bet I'll be soldering. I was
an auto mechanic for 12 years and between cars and trailers I've seen my share
of crimped connectors. They usually end up w/ dissimilar metals which over
time tends to deteriorate the connectivity.
----- Original Message -----
From: Millsap, Dennis
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: solder or crimp??
In the "For what it's worth department".. I'm a lurker on the list, but I couldn't
let this one go by because of all the frustrations I'm having right now
with my -6. I crimped all of the connections for my electric trim. But, lately
I've had a series of "ghosts" in the trim wiring. I've decided that it was
my faulty connections. As you all know, the wiring from the Mac Servos is tiny!
So, now I am going back through every connection and soldering everything.
I'm sure I'll get shot at about my crimping tool or some other thing, but
I haven't had an issue anywhere else. I've got about 500 hours on my RV-6A now
and this one maintenance issue has caused me more headaches than anything else.
I will be soldering most if not all of the connections on the RV-10 and I
will pay a lot of attention to strain relief.
Again, just FWIW.
Dennis W. Millsap
N464DM, RV-6A
Diceman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Any body need proseal? 1 qt can unopened Free,I order but finish using my own stuff,Vans
will not accept returns in Proseal, expire 03-06, rather give free then
go bad in my shelf.please you pay the shipp.
Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ? |
On page 15-2, did anyone have problems fitting the bearing into the
W1013A parts?
I deburred the W1013A only enough to remove the shear marks, but the
bearing does not fit. The inside of the hole measures 0.632" (consistent
on all 4 parts) but the bearing is only 0.625" diameter. Obviously, the
bearing floats in the part, which could cause wear.
Any suggestions?
-Jim 40384
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ? |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Hey jim -
I'm right at that step too, and I didn't deburr the ID of the hole
because I wanted to test the press fit of the bearing first. After
checking, I decided only to break the edges of the hole. I think if you
smooth out the ID, it won't be a press fit any more. Not sure what the
fix is for you. BTW, did you happen to straighten out that 1013A piece?
Mine was really bent from the punching process... and someone posted
recently that a QB (I think) set of wings had trouble with the aileron
mounting due to a slightly curved W-1013A assembly.
Hope that helps
cj
#40410
wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: RV10-List: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ?
On page 15-2, did anyone have problems fitting the bearing into the
W1013A parts?
I deburred the W1013A only enough to remove the shear marks, but the
bearing does not fit. The inside of the hole measures 0.632" (consistent
on all 4 parts) but the bearing is only 0.625" diameter. Obviously, the
bearing floats in the part, which could cause wear.
Any suggestions?
-Jim 40384
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ? |
Chris,
Yep, mine were bent as well. I straightened them as best I could
before deburring.
I am thinking of "gluing" the bearings in with proseal. I'll call Van's
later to see if that will be ok. If not, I'll order replacement parts :(
BTW, I recently used Proseal to repair an engine mount in my car; The
rubber was almost gone, no replacement could be found, so I tried it...
Man is that tough stuff! It worked!
-Jim 40384
Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>Hey jim -
>I'm right at that step too, and I didn't deburr the ID of the hole
>because I wanted to test the press fit of the bearing first. After
>checking, I decided only to break the edges of the hole. I think if you
>smooth out the ID, it won't be a press fit any more. Not sure what the
>fix is for you. BTW, did you happen to straighten out that 1013A piece?
>Mine was really bent from the punching process... and someone posted
>recently that a QB (I think) set of wings had trouble with the aileron
>mounting due to a slightly curved W-1013A assembly.
>
>Hope that helps
>cj
>
>#40410
>wings
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:49 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ?
>
>
>On page 15-2, did anyone have problems fitting the bearing into the
>W1013A parts?
>I deburred the W1013A only enough to remove the shear marks, but the
>bearing does not fit. The inside of the hole measures 0.632" (consistent
>
>on all 4 parts) but the bearing is only 0.625" diameter. Obviously, the
>bearing floats in the part, which could cause wear.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>-Jim 40384
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Multi-Purpose MFD |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Hey all -
Just thought I'd put this out there. I'm in the pondering stages of the
panel (who isn't?) and I got to thinking about putting a big hi-res
display in the panel at the copilot position. Possible uses include
hacking the whatever EFIS I'm using to display on the monitor, inflight
computer for this and that, movies to get the copilot to forget that she
has to pee. I found a couple places that have sunlight readable stuff.
http://www.argonautcomputer.com/displays_tflex.htm
possible challenges or showstoppers include the 10,000 foot operating
altitude, and possible lack of dim-ability for night flight. Thoughts?
cj
#40410
wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ? |
Chris,
You're right. I called Van's and that's one part that the hole DOES
NOT GET DEBURRED.
I made the mistake of reading "deburr the edged and holes in all parts"
to mean that hole as well. Also on page 5-2, it says that "All shear or
cut marks in aluminium must be removed". I should stop reading as much :)
They're giving me new parts, and I told them i'd pay for next day
shipping (I offered to pay for the parts, but they said that its not a
problem.)
Man, if you could get customer service like that elsewhere, the world
would be a better place :)
So, TIM: Please add this to the "Gotcha" page please!!
-Jim 40384, Guess I'll rivet the rear spar tomorrow.....
Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>Hey jim -
>I'm right at that step too, and I didn't deburr the ID of the hole
>because I wanted to test the press fit of the bearing first. After
>checking, I decided only to break the edges of the hole. I think if you
>smooth out the ID, it won't be a press fit any more. Not sure what the
>fix is for you. BTW, did you happen to straighten out that 1013A piece?
>Mine was really bent from the punching process... and someone posted
>recently that a QB (I think) set of wings had trouble with the aileron
>mounting due to a slightly curved W-1013A assembly.
>
>Hope that helps
>cj
>
>#40410
>wings
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:49 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ?
>
>
>On page 15-2, did anyone have problems fitting the bearing into the
>W1013A parts?
>I deburred the W1013A only enough to remove the shear marks, but the
>bearing does not fit. The inside of the hole measures 0.632" (consistent
>
>on all 4 parts) but the bearing is only 0.625" diameter. Obviously, the
>bearing floats in the part, which could cause wear.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>-Jim 40384
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ? |
After final installation of the flaps and pivot bearings would it not be a
good idea to "stake" the bearing in place?
Dick Sipp
40065
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ?
>
> Hey jim -
> I'm right at that step too, and I didn't deburr the ID of the hole
> because I wanted to test the press fit of the bearing first. After
> checking, I decided only to break the edges of the hole. I think if you
> smooth out the ID, it won't be a press fit any more. Not sure what the
> fix is for you. BTW, did you happen to straighten out that 1013A piece?
> Mine was really bent from the punching process... and someone posted
> recently that a QB (I think) set of wings had trouble with the aileron
> mounting due to a slightly curved W-1013A assembly.
>
> Hope that helps
> cj
>
> #40410
> wings
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:49 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Anyone have fit issues with bearing-com-3-5 ?
>
>
> On page 15-2, did anyone have problems fitting the bearing into the
> W1013A parts?
> I deburred the W1013A only enough to remove the shear marks, but the
> bearing does not fit. The inside of the hole measures 0.632" (consistent
>
> on all 4 parts) but the bearing is only 0.625" diameter. Obviously, the
> bearing floats in the part, which could cause wear.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVFOURME(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Primer problems.....Primer problems..... |
Yes Linn, you are mistaken: I indeed do mean Hydrofluoric and hence the
warning about its use. I have used the stuff effectively and safely for 20 yrs
and my paint ain't coming off for nothing. But, you are absolutely
right-------it is nasty stuff and one MUST observe the precautions when using
it. Never
tried phosphoric acid. Does that acid work?
craig p
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm34077(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RV10 interial belts |
My notebook computer died the other night so with the exception of Nick Leonard
I lost the list of interested people. I now have the particulars for the belts
(pdfs, colors and costs) and procedures that we used to create the hardpoints.
If interested just email me directly at dlm46007(at)cox.net . If you want to consider
it later you probably ought to create the hard points now as its about
1000% easier with the lid upside down on the shop floor.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Multi-Purpose MFD |
CJ,
We installed an ELO 12.1" panel mount touch screen in our RV-10 Panel.
So far, seems to be a good choice. The theory is that we have the Blue
Mountain EFIS slaved into the monitor and a laptop computer. That way,
either the co-pilot can see the normal nav displays or can watch a movie
or navigate approach plates on the laptop/touchscreen. There is a 10K
ft operating limitation on BOTH the hardrive in the laptop and the LCD
display. However, that seems to be a small price to pay so far. The
ELO touchpanel was about $150 on ebay and runs on 12v.
To dim the display, we will have to hack into the lighting power supply
and add a lighting control. However, the lighting in miniature
fluorescent so that probably won't work. We're still not clear on how
we're going to handle that one. Probably just turn it off at night for
now. If all else fails, we could put a static cling piece of tint over
the screen.
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
-----Original Message-----
| From: | Chris Johnston [mailto:CJohnston(at)popsound.com] |
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Multi-Purpose MFD
-->
Hey all -
Just thought I'd put this out there. I'm in the pondering stages of the
panel (who isn't?) and I got to thinking about putting a big hi-res
display in the panel at the copilot position. Possible uses include
hacking the whatever EFIS I'm using to display on the monitor, inflight
computer for this and that, movies to get the copilot to forget that she
has to pee. I found a couple places that have sunlight readable stuff.
http://www.argonautcomputer.com/displays_tflex.htm
possible challenges or showstoppers include the 10,000 foot operating
altitude, and possible lack of dim-ability for night flight. Thoughts?
cj
#40410
wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Sponcil" <bsponcil(at)belinblank.org> |
| Subject: | Primers not to use?? |
I realize I'm running the risk of opening a primer debate as well as numerous flames
documenting my obvious ignorance, BUT I was at the local auto paint stop
today looking to pick up some PPG 1791 self etching primer. Sadly they were out
and the guy behind the counter recommended I use a rattle can of SEM 39683
self etching primer. He claims it's just as good but you don't have to futz with
the catalyst and that he's had good results with the cars he's used it on.
($12/can btw).
Now I realize that all primers are not created equal and that some people don't
primer at all but it got me thinking (always dangerous). Are there primers to
actually AVOID? If it says for use on steel and aluminum is that good enough?
I seem to recall a guy at Vans telling me any ol metal primer will do, it's just
not necessary.
Opinions?
-Brian
Iowa City, IA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Looking for recommendation for Firewall insulation. |
| From: | "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com> |
I'm looking for a recommendation for Firewall insulation. I
would like to get it bought and cut to shape before I rivet on the upper
skin section over the rudder pedals.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Primers not to use?? |
Brian,
Thats what I am using. Working well for me so far. Only comments, Keep the parts
warm before during and after spraying.
I have used both 39683 (Gray) and 39693 (Green). Can't tell any difference (Other
than color).
Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Primers not to use?? |
Brian,
I am only paying $7.69 per can. The store I am buying from is giving my the wholesale
price.
Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-10 Engine for Sale |
| From: | "Condon, Philip M." <pcondon(at)mitre.org> |
Since I have decided not to build a RV-10, my engine needs a new home.
I have a O/IO-540 E4B5/C4B5 that is a match for a RV-10. This engine
can be configured with a carb or fuel injection - everything else
internal to the engine is the same according to the Lycoming data
sheets and Vans. 21,900$ for a first run Mattituck new limits overhaul,
2800TT, 300 SMOH. I had the engine back to Mattituck for a IRAN and
test cell run prior to my purchase. All accessories, starter, Bendix
RSA fuel injector, correct carb should you want to run a low pressure
fuel system, yellow tagged (RV-10/Rocket set up) prop governor,
governor cable stand-off and paperwork. Pictures available and more
detailed log data of course..........
Please contact off list. Phil in south NJ 609-654-9587 609-272-4037
Phil Condon RV-4 N41RV & RV-8 N800RV
(reposted by request)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Primers not to use?? |
For my RV-7 I used NAPA 7220 self etching primer. It comes in rattle cans and
is probably the ultimate in no hassle priming, since it dries in about ten minutes
and so priming is just a blink on the road between deburring, dimpling, and
riveting. I scuffed all parts with Scotchbrite and then cleaned them with
MEK before priming with 7220.
HOWEVER, this and essentially all of the automotive rattle can primers will cover
OK but not really bond chemically to Alclad, and subsequent MEK and some elbow
grease will wipe the primer away. Not a problem for closed surfaces like
the inside of the HS, VS, and elevators, but definitely a problem for any 'high
traffic' areas where the primer remains exposed after the plane is done.
For the RV-10 I reverted back to MEK cleaning (no Scotchbrite scuff this time) followed by AZKO sprayed with the disposable cup "zipgun" sold by Aircraft Spruce. (see http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/zipgun.php ). Works very well and except for having to have a full face respirator mask, is almost as fast as rattle can priming. The AZKO primer definitely bonds well and is very resistant to mechanical abrasion (such as that caused by a bouncing bucking bar hitting webs and flanges of various skeleton pieces).
It's not the full phosphoric acid etch followed by Alodine conversion followed
by epoxy, but seems a pretty good middle ground for durability vs. multiple tedious
steps.
(Also should say that even though the rattle can primer gets scratched or rubbed
off, it's pretty simple to just spray a little more on when needed, even after
the airplane is in regular use flying.)
YMMV,
-Dan Masys
> I realize I'm running the risk of opening a primer debate as well as numerous
flames documenting my obvious ignorance, BUT I was at the local auto paint stop
today looking to pick up some PPG 1791 self etching primer. Sadly they were
out and the guy behind the counter recommended I use a rattle can of SEM 39683
self etching primer. He claims it's just as good but you don't have to futz
with the catalyst and that he's had good results with the cars he's used it on.
($12/can btw).
>
> Now I realize that all primers are not created equal and that some people don't
primer at all but it got me thinking (always dangerous). Are there primers
to actually AVOID? If it says for use on steel and aluminum is that good enough?
I seem to recall a guy at Vans telling me any ol metal primer will do, it's
just not necessary.
>
> Opinions?
>
>
> -Brian
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JSMcGrew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost |
This is bit of an old issue, but I recently won the battle against the
"impossible rivets" on the rear seat pans and I thought I would share my method.
The forward-most hole is the problem because the front seat support gets in
the way. I managed to set a solid rivet in these holes, but it took some trial
and error. I ended up using a 12" piece of steel angle, with a hole drilled
in one end to accept a 1/8" cupped set (I had to do some grinding on the end
of the steel piece to get it to work out). I placed the cupped set on the
rivet and blocked the aft end of the steel piece from the side panel with a
piece of wood. Then I used a mushroom set in my rivet gun, placed it on the piece
of steel as close to the rivet as possible and hammered away. I cranked up
the PSI on the gun a bit. I used different pieces of wood to support the steel
piece while I riveted to keep from scratching the floor and side panel
aluminum.
As a bucking bar for all the floor pan rivets along the left and right sides
of the fuselage, I used the long RV-10 bucking bar with a 2x4 block taped in
the middle (this gives you leverage against the outside skin for holding
pressure on the back side of the rivets). It takes some adjusting of the size of
the block, but once you get it right you can get through those rivets
quickly. You might want to support the outside skin with something to keep it
from
denting as you're pushing on it.
Send me an email if you want to see a picture of the rivet set up.
Jim McGrew
RV-10 #134 - Just starting to wire fuse
-----Original Message-----
> From: _owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> _server(at)matronics.com]_ (mailto:server(at)matronics.com]) On Behalf Of
Doerr, Ray R [NTK]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:30 PM
> To: _rv10-list(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
>
> Tim, you and I seem to be at the same sport. I ended up doing
> the same thing for the nutplates on the baggage door jam. I drilled the
> rivet hole to come out the back and then enlarged this hole to 1/4" and
> back riveted it using a hammer and punch on a backing plate.
> As for the most forward rivet on the rear side seat pans, I also
> left this rivet out. I called Van's about it and explain to Bruce there
> is no way to get this rivet because you can't get to either side of the
> rivet with the gun. He went on to say you can use a pop rivet at a 15
> degree angle, but I said it would be more like a 70 degree angle and it
> wouldn't work. If you look at the drawing that show the rear floor pan,
> you will notice they don't even show this hole exists, so I wonder if
> this was added later not thinking about how it would be set.
>
>
>
> Thank You
> Ray Doerr
> 40250 Floor Pans all rivet on.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: _owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
> [mailto:_owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]_
(mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]) On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:16 PM
> To: RV10
> Subject: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
>
>
> I found 2 "impossible" rivets, and the solution to one of them. QB
> fuse, by the way.
>
> #1 is on the baggage door latch bracket that goes on the fuselage.
> There are 2 nutplates to attach. 2 of those 4 rivets are not
> accessible by squeezer or bucking bar. I did, however,
> find that I have a very small flat squeezer set and I could drill
> a hole and enlarge with a unibit in the flange underneath the
> rivet, and get the squeezer through. I just don't know how else
> you'd do it. Here's a couple of photos.
>
> _http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html_
(http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260017.html)
> _http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html_
(http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505260016.html)
>
>
> The other impossible rivets are on the very forward hole of the
> rear seat panels, on the sidewalls. There are holes that are completely
> inaccessible by rivet gun, or pop rivet tool. This photo shows the
> location, a couple inches NorthEast of the rivet set.
> _http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html_
(http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050530/RV200505250013.html)
> Short of drilling a hole through my seat bracket, which is NOT
> worth it, I can't find a way to fill that hole. The ones on the
> other side of the floor panel by the tunnel could be popped in
> from the tunnel side I suppose, but you'd have an ugle rivet
> sticking into the seating area. For now I'm just going to leave
> them empty. If I got desperate, I'd GLUE in a rivet for looks...
> then everyone would think I figured out the secret. :)
>
> Tim
>
> --
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Question for Tim: Gretz pitot |
Tim,
Where is the control module for the Gretz pitot mounted? I see in your
pictures some 2 conductor wire with LEDs attached. Is this for a seperate
wire run to the pitot or module? Looks like two sets of wire coming from
the pitot itself. Wire for power to the heating element is a seperate 14
AWG wire correct? Just trying to figure wire runs in my wings. Thanks in
advance for the info!
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
SPAM: If the email is for spam, please report to abuse(at)dnsExit.com
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Accounts will be suspended immediately if found spamming.
| Subject: | Question for Tim: Gretz pitot |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Hmm, seeing how you addressed this to Tim maybe I shouldn't chime in. Na, I'll give you my 2 cents, especially as I don't think Tim has mounted his controller yet. I almost forgot myself. You can see a couple of pics here, <http://www.kitlog.com/mykitlog/index.php?pworklog&worklogid4723> but basically I made a small mount out of some excess material and riveted it to the rib next to the pitot. Warren was pretty adamant about not lengthening the wires, might affect the thermistor resistance which would screw with the controller.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Wing bottom skins
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Question for Tim: Gretz pitot
-->
Tim,
Where is the control module for the Gretz pitot mounted? I see in your pictures
some 2 conductor wire with LEDs attached. Is this for a seperate wire
run to the pitot or module? Looks like two sets of wire coming from the pitot
itself. Wire for power to the heating element is a seperate 14 AWG wire correct?
Just trying to figure wire runs in my wings. Thanks in advance for the
info!
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost |
Rick wrote:
>
> I have included a few shots to show how it was done and an idea of the
> type of riveting I am refering too.
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
> Fuselage
Great pics!!!
Linn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "brian bollaert" <bbollaert(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | gretz pitot module install |
Hello John:
i have incl a pic of my module install .
Brian Bollaert
#40200
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Tip Antennae |
Folks,
I see many wing tip comm antennae being installed. Wasn't there a problem
with blind spots with these antennae? Are these better than traditional
placement? Is it primarily a cosmetic thing, or do these somehow improve on
the traditional? Do you need on per wing tip to cure the blind spots?
Where can I read up on this topic?
Thanks in advance,
John Jessen
40328 HS (still in buildus interruptus)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Case" <pioneer(at)choiceonemail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost |
Thanks for the tip Rick, Just starting my RV-10. I like the color of your primer,
what brand did you use.
Bruce Case
RV-10, #446
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wing Tip Antennae |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
John,
Conventional wisdom is that the wingtip comm antennae have poor
performance. They require vertical polarization to perform well and
there just isn't much room in the wingtip for that. The Archer wingtip
nav antennae on the other hand are widely regarded as very good
performers (horizontal polarization). You'd think that there would be
shadowing issues, but most reports from the field claim outstanding
performance. Bob Archer specifically recommends AGAINST any sort of
hooking multiple antennae together to achieve some perceived benefit. I
installed one nav antenna in each wingtip along with his recommended
marker beacon antenna in one wingtip. They're light and inexpensive,
and if performance becomes an issue I'll just go with something external
later to cure it. Most folks are installing external, belly mounted
bent whip antenna (like a CI-122) for comms.
Bob #40105
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Subject: RV10-List: Wing Tip Antennae
Folks,
I see many wing tip comm antennae being installed. Wasn't there a
problem with blind spots with these antennae? Are these better than
traditional placement? Is it primarily a cosmetic thing, or do these
somehow improve on the traditional? Do you need on per wing tip to cure
the blind spots? Where can I read up on this topic?
Thanks in advance,
John Jessen
40328 HS (still in buildus interruptus)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question for Tim: Gretz pitot |
Michael,
Thanks for the pictures! I addressed first post to Tim because his was the
only install I was aware of. Why not install the pitot mount to the outboard
of that rib using a splice from the rib flange to the mount? I know the instructions
call for an angle riveted to the other side of the rib but they indicate
there's isn't the only way to get the job done. Thoughts?
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: gretz pitot module install |
Brian,
Cool! Great picture! Is that the Archer antenna in the foreground?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Hi John and all,
The Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna is an improvement over the "traditional"
bipole VOR antenna.
This is my understanding of how the Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna works.
The Sportcraft wingtip antenna's are "gamma" antenna's. (Seems like just a
fancy way to label a ground plane antenna with a Greek letter "G".) The base
of the antenna, or the ground plane, receives the signal with the antenna
element (small aluminum plate connected to the center wire on the coax) acting
as a capacitor for the signal.
This doesn't make a perfect NAV antenna, but it is better than the
"traditional" NAV antenna.
The Sportcraft NAV antenna needs to be mounted as far forward in the wingtip
as possible. (A common mistake is to mount the antenna near the center of
the wingtip.)
Preferably, the base of the Sportcraft NAV antenna should be attached to the
wing skin (either the top, or the bottom) with as many fasteners as
possible. Including the antenna base as part of the wingtip nutplate attachment
is a
good thing. Having at least four good ground contacts with these fasteners
from the antenna base to the wing skin is a good thing. Five or more is
better. After painting, clean the paint out of the wing skin dimple so the
wingtip screw is against bare metal.
The wires for the NAV light, strobe light and landing light need to be
routed along the front edge of the Sportcraft NAV antenna in the Adel clamps
provided. This actually improves the operation of the Sportcraft NAV antenna.
(Do
not route any wires over the top of the antenna element.)
One last comment. If your install a Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna and the
Sportcraft Marker Beacon antenna in the same wingtip, the Marker Beacon
antenna only provides about a 10 mile range when connected to the NAV receiver.
:-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
RV-3 N47RV with 2 Sportcraft antenna's (right wingtip COM and VS COM)
RV-4 (HR2) with 3 Sportcraft antenna's (wingtip NAV, wingtip COM and VS COM)
RV-6A with 3 Sportcraft antenna's (wingtip NAV, wingtip COM and VS COM)
In a message dated 10/21/2005 9:18:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jjessen(at)rcn.com writes:
Folks,
I see many wing tip comm antennae being installed. Wasn't there a problem
with blind spots with these antennae? Are these better than traditional
placement? Is it primarily a cosmetic thing, or do these somehow improve on the
traditional? Do you need on per wing tip to cure the blind spots? Where can
I read up on this topic?
Thanks in advance,
John Jessen
40328 HS (still in buildus interruptus)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Jim,
Great set of pointers!
If I can summarize your words:
Do:
- Mount the Sportcraft NAV antenna as far forward in the wingtip as possible.
(A common mistake is to mount the antenna near the center of the wingtip.)
- The base of the Sportcraft NAV antenna should be attached to the wing skin (either
the top, or the bottom) with as many fasteners as possible.
- Include the antenna base as part of the wingtip nutplate attachment.
- Use at least four good ground contacts with these fasteners from the antenna
base to the wing skin (Five or more is better).
- After painting, clean the paint out of the wing skin dimple so the wingtip screw
is against bare metal.
- Route the wires for the NAV light, strobe light and landing light along the front
edge of the Sportcraft NAV antenna in the Adel clamps provided (This actually
improves the operation of the Sportcraft NAV antenna).
Don't:
- Do not route any wires over the top of the antenna element.
Question:
- If your install a Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna and the Sportcraft Marker Beacon
antenna in the same wingtip, the Marker Beacon antenna ONLY provides about
a 10 mile range when connected to the NAV receiver.
(Is this a good thing or a bad thing?)
Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Hi Jim,
It usually a bad thing to connect antenna's to the wrong radio connection.
It gets more embarrassing when the antenna coax cables are also labeled wrong
at the radio end. :-)
It usually works better to connect the NAV antenna to the NAV receiver.
However, almost anything will work.
By design, the marker beacon antenna should not work very well. After all,
what's the point of receiving the outer marker signal 5 miles out?
For the COM radio;
If you have a BNC connector on the end of the coax for the COM antenna, the
center conductor of the BNC connector, when left disconnected from the
antenna, will provide about a 1 mile range for the COM radio.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 10/21/2005 10:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com writes:
Question:
- If your install a Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna and the Sportcraft Marker
Beacon antenna in the same wingtip, the Marker Beacon antenna ONLY provides
about a 10 mile range when connected to the NAV receiver.
(Is this a good thing or a bad thing?)
Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wing Tip Antennae |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Just to reinforce: I talked personally with Bob Archer about
installation of the nav antenna in the RV-10 wingtip because I was
concerned about the adhesive backed foil from the Van's landing light
causing an issue. Bob A. reinforced the importance of mounting as far
forward as possible, and very close but not touching the foil from the
light. He also emphasized the importance of routing the wires along the
antenna in the provided nylon loops.
I also installed a MB antenna per his directions. If you do that you'll
need to mount the nav antenna on the top side of the wingtip instead of
the bottom where it would normally go. There are two models of his
antennae - one for left and another for right side mounting (assuming
they're going on the bottom surface of the wingtip). If you mount on
the top surface you'll need the opposite side antenna since they're
mirror images. In other words, If the left antenna is going to be on
the bottom surface and right antenna will be on the top, order two
"left" versions.
His directions for the MB antenna are to simply remove 53" of shield
from a length of antenna coax and attach it to the bottom surface of the
wingtip, parallel to the edge of the wing and 1" from the metal wing
surface. I used a few dabs of epoxy to secure mine.
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing Tip Antennae
Jim,
Great set of pointers!
If I can summarize your words:
Do:
- Mount the Sportcraft NAV antenna as far forward in the wingtip as
possible. (A common mistake is to mount the antenna near the center of
the wingtip.)
- The base of the Sportcraft NAV antenna should be attached to the wing
skin (either the top, or the bottom) with as many fasteners as possible.
- Include the antenna base as part of the wingtip nutplate attachment.
- Use at least four good ground contacts with these fasteners from the
antenna base to the wing skin (Five or more is better).
- After painting, clean the paint out of the wing skin dimple so the
wingtip screw is against bare metal.
- Route the wires for the NAV light, strobe light and landing light
along the front edge of the Sportcraft NAV antenna in the Adel clamps
provided (This actually improves the operation of the Sportcraft NAV
antenna).
Don't:
- Do not route any wires over the top of the antenna element.
Question:
- If your install a Sportcraft wingtip NAV antenna and the Sportcraft
Marker Beacon antenna in the same wingtip, the Marker Beacon antenna
ONLY provides about a 10 mile range when connected to the NAV receiver.
(Is this a good thing or a bad thing?)
Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm34077(at)cox.net> |
Just got an email from Van Bortel that they are expecting a 7% increase on Lycoming
and Continental engine prices. I guess a rising tide lifts all ships.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.) and
use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when printing a
wire list, you can control the font size easily.
Linn
Jim Combs wrote:
>
>Ahh!
>
>Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a topic all by itself!
>
>Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>
>Jim C
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Another idea for Gretz mount |
Some pictures are attached that show my idea for pitot mount. I wanted to keep
all access to the pitot and mount in the last bay so I doubled and extended the
flange of the next to last rib to provide a mounting surface similar to that
shown in the instructions for the Gretz mount. See what you all think.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rhonda Bewley" <Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com> |
I don't believe the price increase they are talking about is from
Lycoming. They are no longer an authorized Lycoming distributor (see
the very, very fine print in their ad.) It is common for all engine
suppliers to put a price increase into effect at the beginning of the
year, as we have discussed on the list before. This increase must
coming from their alternate supplier, whomever that is . . .
Rhonda
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Subject: RV10-List: engine prices
Just got an email from Van Bortel that they are expecting a 7% increase
on Lycoming and Continental engine prices. I guess a rising tide lifts
all ships.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Ochs <jochs(at)froody.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
This thing rocks for making labels to put on wire ends:
http://www.lanshack.com/tls2200.asp
its a bit pricey, but we used one of these during a data center
installation for the network cables and it prints so that the type is
parallel to the direction the wire runs on a white square, then the
label has clear plastic that wraps around it and sticks it together and
protects the printing.
James
#40400
linn walters wrote:
>
> You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.) and
> use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
> labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when printing
> a wire list, you can control the font size easily.
> Linn
> Jim Combs wrote:
>
>>
>> Ahh!
>> Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a topic
>> all by itself!
>>
>> Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>> Jim C
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
For dual NAV radio's, this would work great. One NAV antenna into each NAV
receiver will maximize the NAV radio signal.
For two NAV antenna's into one NAV radio, it's a disaster. With a node
(dead spot) for every two feet of wingspan, the reception will be very erratic.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 10/21/2005 11:43:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
schmoboy(at)cox.net writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens
Two wingtip nav antennas (one in each tip), plus a mb antenna in one of
the tips.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Hey, I've got one of those! They do indeed rock. I tend to use them on
my ham radio antenna/power wiring. They certainly do seem to last forever.
As long as we're showing cool tools, how about a tool to check the
resonant frequency and SWR of your antennas?
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-269
As for antennas, Try the antenna book!
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=Antennas%2C+Transmission+Lines+%26+Propagation&words=
<http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=Antennas%2C+Transmission+Lines+%26+Propagation&words=>
Now, as for the discussion on antennas and coupling, here are my views:
1. You CAN couple antennas (even transmitting antennas), however you
must have:
a) a proper balun to couple the signals and match the impedance
of the antennas to the line
b) proper spacing/phasing to get a good gain from the antenna pair
2. Coupling (identical) antennas will only result in a signal
increase of +3db
3. If you mismatch polarization (for example, you have H polarity
and the base station has V polarity), you will get a loss of about 20db,
resulting in a signal level of about 1/6 of what you would have if you
had the polarity the same. In the "real world" however, there are signal
reflections, etc. that influence the signal level.
Did I mention that I am *really* into ham radio? I have built my own
antennas and by far the most important thing you can do to improve your
signal is to match the antenna to the line and make sure your antenna is
at the correct length to resonate efficently at the frequency you desire.
-Jim 40384 (Ham radio call N8VIM)
Now let the antenna wars begin!
James Ochs wrote:
>
> This thing rocks for making labels to put on wire ends:
>
> http://www.lanshack.com/tls2200.asp
>
> its a bit pricey, but we used one of these during a data center
> installation for the network cables and it prints so that the type is
> parallel to the direction the wire runs on a white square, then the
> label has clear plastic that wraps around it and sticks it together
> and protects the printing.
>
> James
> #40400
>
> linn walters wrote:
>
>>
>> You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.) and
>> use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
>> labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when printing
>> a wire list, you can control the font size easily.
>> Linn
>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ahh!
>>> Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a topic
>>> all by itself!
>>>
>>> Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>>> Jim C
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Case" <pioneer(at)choiceonemail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost |
Thanks for the response Rick,
I am leaning towards just priming mating surfaces as well plus any non-Alcad pieces.
I am an A&P student and basically most planes that come into the shop look
really good inside if they have had a decent hangar and look pretty bad if
they are stored outside. Cessna didn't prime at all for many years. I will
look into the Tempo product, I have typically used Dupont Variprime on the job
but would prefer the gray color. I think Zinc Chromate is inferior to any of
the modern etching primers if you don't do a great job of prep.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The impossible rivets - 1 won, 1 lost
Bruce,
I used several brands but the one in the picture is Tempo self etching grey from
Spruce. I have also used AKZO in the tail feathers...two part tough as nails
but sorta a pain to mix, spray and clean up (insert lazy here) I have Zinc
Chromate in the wings, SW 988 here and there...no particular reasons for any
one of them. Rattle cans are OK but you will spend more money, if your into mixing
and spraying SW has an epoxy primer that is really nice and very tough. AKZO
has that aviation color that some prefer and it is good stuff as well....I'm
sure you have heard of the "primer wars" there are so many different methods
to choose from. FWIW I was originally was looking at the Zenith 601. I went
to their factory and the method of choice for them is to brush Zinc Chromate on
all mating surfaces and leave the rest of the protection to the alcad coating
on the aluminum. The spray can primers can be a bit tender until they really
cure well but in a day or two they are much less apt to scratch. I buff with
the red scotch pad, clean with MEK and paint them in my back yard on a set of
old saw horses with a 2' X 6' wood frame made from 2x2's covered with chicken
wire. Only damage is the overspray has caused the humming birds to grow an extra
head and now I have to refill the feeder twice as often.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Just a semantics issue. Aircraft antenna's need to be LOW gain antenna's so
they can transmit and receive equally well in all directions.
IMHO, HIGH gain is a bad thing for aircraft antenna's. (Even if it is a
good thing for Ham operations.)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 10/21/2005 2:19:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
n8vim(at)arrl.net writes:
Now, as for the discussion on antennas and coupling, here are my views:
1. You CAN couple antennas (even transmitting antennas), however you
must have:
a) a proper balun to couple the signals and match the impedance
of the antennas to the line
b) proper spacing/phasing to get a good gain from the antenna pair
2. Coupling (identical) antennas will only result in a signal
increase of +3db
3. If you mismatch polarization (for example, you have H polarity
and the base station has V polarity), you will get a loss of about 20db,
resulting in a signal level of about 1/6 of what you would have if you
had the polarity the same. In the "real world" however, there are signal
reflections, etc. that influence the signal level.
Did I mention that I am *really* into ham radio? I have built my own
antennas and by far the most important thing you can do to improve your
signal is to match the antenna to the line and make sure your antenna is
at the correct length to resonate efficently at the frequency you desire.
-Jim 40384 (Ham radio call N8VIM)
Now let the antenna wars begin!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
Gain can be omnidirectional as well. For example, a 1/4 wave
omnidirectional antenna is said to have 0db (d) gain, but a 7/8 wave
omnidirectional antenna has about 5.2db (d) gain. Both radiate equally
in all directions.
Now, you can increase gain in one direction by decreasing it in another,
but you can increase gain in an omni antenna in other ways as well.
-Jim 40384
LessDragProd(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just a semantics issue. Aircraft antenna's need to be LOW gain
> antenna's so they can transmit and receive equally well in all directions.
>
> IMHO, HIGH gain is a bad thing for aircraft antenna's. (Even if it is
> a good thing for Ham operations.)
>
> Regards,
> Jim Ayers
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2005 2:19:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> n8vim(at)arrl.net writes:
>
> Now, as for the discussion on antennas and coupling, here are my
> views:
> 1. You CAN couple antennas (even transmitting antennas),
> however you
> must have:
> a) a proper balun to couple the signals and match the
> impedance
> of the antennas to the line
> b) proper spacing/phasing to get a good gain from the
> antenna pair
> 2. Coupling (identical) antennas will only result in a signal
> increase of +3db
> 3. If you mismatch polarization (for example, you have H polarity
> and the base station has V polarity), you will get a loss of about
> 20db,
> resulting in a signal level of about 1/6 of what you would have if
> you
> had the polarity the same. In the "real world" however, there are
> signal
> reflections, etc. that influence the signal level.
>
> Did I mention that I am *really* into ham radio? I have built my own
> antennas and by far the most important thing you can do to improve
> your
> signal is to match the antenna to the line and make sure your
> antenna is
> at the correct length to resonate efficently at the frequency you
> desire.
>
> -Jim 40384 (Ham radio call N8VIM)
>
> Now let the antenna wars begin!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
The one thing to be careful of is using a thermal printer in conjunction
with shrink wrap??? Heating the shrink wrap over the thermal label will
damage the printing???
The question marks are because I'm not positive and am more just asking.
-Sean #40303
James Ochs wrote:
>
> This thing rocks for making labels to put on wire ends:
>
> http://www.lanshack.com/tls2200.asp
>
> its a bit pricey, but we used one of these during a data center
> installation for the network cables and it prints so that the type is
> parallel to the direction the wire runs on a white square, then the
> label has clear plastic that wraps around it and sticks it together
> and protects the printing.
>
> James
> #40400
>
> linn walters wrote:
>
>>
>> You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.) and
>> use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
>> labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when printing
>> a wire list, you can control the font size easily.
>> Linn
>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ahh!
>>> Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a topic
>>> all by itself!
>>>
>>> Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>>> Jim C
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Ochs <jochs(at)froody.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
That printer doesn't use shrink wrap. Its an adhesive label and only a
small portion of the label is printable area, the rest is clear... it
just wraps around itself.
James
Sean Stephens wrote:
>
> The one thing to be careful of is using a thermal printer in
> conjunction with shrink wrap??? Heating the shrink wrap over the
> thermal label will damage the printing???
>
> The question marks are because I'm not positive and am more just asking.
>
> -Sean #40303
>
> James Ochs wrote:
>
>>
>> This thing rocks for making labels to put on wire ends:
>>
>> http://www.lanshack.com/tls2200.asp
>>
>> its a bit pricey, but we used one of these during a data center
>> installation for the network cables and it prints so that the type is
>> parallel to the direction the wire runs on a white square, then the
>> label has clear plastic that wraps around it and sticks it together
>> and protects the printing.
>>
>> James
>> #40400
>>
>> linn walters wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.)
>>> and use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
>>> labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when
>>> printing a wire list, you can control the font size easily.
>>> Linn
>>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahh!
>>>> Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a
>>>> topic all by itself!
>>>>
>>>> Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>>>> Jim C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
The TLS is not really a thermal printer. It is a thermal *transfer*
printer.
The difference is that in a thermal printer, a chemical coating on the
label/paper itself turns black when heat is applied, but a thermal
transfer printer actually uses a "ribbon" which is not ink, but
something similar to a carbon tape. The print head heats the area up and
it is thermally bonded to the backing (label stock). This method will
not fade or darken with heat.
Another point: the labels for the TLS printer are self laminating. What
you do is print only on 1/3 of the label, while the other 2/3 is clear.
When you wrap the label on the cable, you'll wrap the clear part over
the printed part and that's how it gets laminated!
-Jim 40384
Sean Stephens wrote:
>
> The one thing to be careful of is using a thermal printer in
> conjunction with shrink wrap??? Heating the shrink wrap over the
> thermal label will damage the printing???
>
> The question marks are because I'm not positive and am more just asking.
>
> -Sean #40303
>
> James Ochs wrote:
>
>>
>> This thing rocks for making labels to put on wire ends:
>>
>> http://www.lanshack.com/tls2200.asp
>>
>> its a bit pricey, but we used one of these during a data center
>> installation for the network cables and it prints so that the type is
>> parallel to the direction the wire runs on a white square, then the
>> label has clear plastic that wraps around it and sticks it together
>> and protects the printing.
>>
>> James
>> #40400
>>
>> linn walters wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You can print out an identifier (name or number or function etc.)
>>> and use clear het shrink tubing to hold it on a wire. You can use
>>> labelmakers like the Brother and do the same thing, but when
>>> printing a wire list, you can control the font size easily.
>>> Linn
>>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahh!
>>>> Marking and identifying wiring (of all kinds) at each end is a
>>>> topic all by itself!
>>>>
>>>> Any good ideas for marking and labeling wiring?
>>>> Jim C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net> |
Anyone successfully fluted the recess to fit the air box and top plate? I'm resorting
to glassing the hole in.
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
LessDragProd(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just a semantics issue. Aircraft antenna's need to be LOW gain
> antenna's so they can transmit and receive equally well in all directions.
>
> IMHO, HIGH gain is a bad thing for aircraft antenna's. (Even if it is a
> good thing for Ham operations.)
>
> Regards,
> Jim Ayers
Hi Jim,
I'm certain I do not understand why this would be
the case, but I'm willing to have it explained to me... :-)
I believe the gain in an antenna works both
ways, as in it will not only provide an
increase in the signal being received, but it will
also increase the signal being transmitted out.
In other words, a 5db gain antenna should work much
better than a 1db gain antenna, all other things
being equal. I'm referring to omni-directional
antennas (360 degrees), not uni-directional antennas
(focused more in one direction than others).
I don't see why an aircraft AM radio would be any different
than a Ham AM radio in this context.
Or am I misunderstanding how an antenna works?
-Dj
Ham operator N1JOV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae |
DJ,
You are correct in that the gain works for transmitting as well as
receiving. Antennas are antennas, no matter what application they are
used in. As Scotty once said "You cannot change the laws of physics!"
-Jim, 40384, N8VIM
Dj Merrill wrote:
>
>LessDragProd(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>Just a semantics issue. Aircraft antenna's need to be LOW gain
>>antenna's so they can transmit and receive equally well in all directions.
>>
>>IMHO, HIGH gain is a bad thing for aircraft antenna's. (Even if it is a
>>good thing for Ham operations.)
>>
>>Regards,
>>Jim Ayers
>>
>>
>
>Hi Jim,
> I'm certain I do not understand why this would be
>the case, but I'm willing to have it explained to me... :-)
>I believe the gain in an antenna works both
>ways, as in it will not only provide an
>increase in the signal being received, but it will
>also increase the signal being transmitted out.
>In other words, a 5db gain antenna should work much
>better than a 1db gain antenna, all other things
>being equal. I'm referring to omni-directional
>antennas (360 degrees), not uni-directional antennas
>(focused more in one direction than others).
>I don't see why an aircraft AM radio would be any different
>than a Ham AM radio in this context.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding how an antenna works?
>
>-Dj
>Ham operator N1JOV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> |
Back in August we had a protracted discussion about torque values and
whether to add "torque drag" to the torque value table. I've gone
back and read those posts and don't see a definitive answer to that
question... so I'll pose it again in the context of my current dilema.
I'm currently attaching the W-823PP Aileron Bellcrank Brackets to the
spar web and W-1020 Tie-Down Bracket with AN3-5A Bolts into K1000-3
nutplates. At 25 in/lbs of torque the brackets are not at all tight
to the spar web. I've attempted to measure the drag from the
nutplate, but my wrench has a minimum setting of 25 in/lbs and I
don't think interpreting below that is going to be accurate. Any ideas?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net> |
Did some digging in the archive.... The most inovative method I found in making
the recess, other than using the provided metal recess, is to heat the glass
and push it in with a pipe.
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Mount Clearance update |
Van's got my engine mount this week and turned it around a.s.a.p.
I have a few photos from Scott, and did a write-up here for you all.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/engine/20051022/index.html
If you read the above link, you can disregard the rest of this
email. It's just a repost of the text for the archives.
Tim
They have been very very good at dealing with this issue for me. I
think that hearing it from a few people now, they determined that there
may be a potential issue for some customers and they wanted to figure it
out a.s.a.p. and come up with a correction or a plan. I sent them my
engine mount via FedEx and they got it the same week. They actually
analyzed it right away the first day they got it in, and dropped me a
note. Then, on Friday (the next day), they actually had someone come in
to perform the welding so they could ship it out that same day. (This
is extra special, since the guys who do this work 4 tens, and don't
usually work Friday). They also offered to powder coat the weld if I
wanted to wait a week or so for powder coating, but I opted to get the
mount back a.s.a.p. so they were going to try to ship it back Friday.
Great service....turn around in one day.
Here are some facts:
When they placed the engine mount in their test case, they had 3/16" to
almost 1/4" clearance. That's still not 1/2", but it's about double
what I had (.063 to .125") They feel there must be a difference in the
sumps. I gave them my sump numbers because they want to investigate
what the difference is. My numbers were:
REV G
78066
EQ-2
W
and a number that looks like Z1902
They say they aren't seeing any problem with the brand new Lycoming
engines they're selling. Their first-glance look seems to indicate that
my sump may be an off number from what they are used to seeing.
Remember that any engine you buy, Aerosport, or any other
non-factory-new, will be a rebuild that will potentially be built out of
cases and sumps from any model year or number. This could cause some of
these small variations. There is no such thing as an "Aerosport IO-540"
as one list member wrote. They are all just rebuilds of other IO-540's
that aren't factory new....and can be of various previous lineages.
It is also interesting to note that according to Van's, the cross bar in
question was determined unnecessary by engineering, but someone working
with the engine mounts decided to add it anyway to add more structure
and support. Given the solid design, I'd believe this, but when you see
the mount, I think it's still best to have the bar there. That said, I
can't picture there being hardly any stress on this particular joint. I
could picture the "fix" being done without welding....cutting the tube,
and bolting in a curved piece. Of course, a bolted joint would give
more opportunity for corrosion where the tubes meet, so I'm happy with
the welding option.
So my modded engine mount is now enroute back to me, and I should be
able to hang the engine for next weekend. It was a bit of a pain, but
at least it didn't cause a major slowdown. My advice? Get your engine
and mount hung while you're working on the canopy and fuselage. Then
you can tell if you have any issues, and can pull it immediately and
send it out for rework without slowing anything down. I am under the
impression that Van's might be willing to work with future builders on
this problem. I am not sure if they plan to make this mod part of their
general contstruction in the future. If anyone gets that answer, let me
know. They have been very good dealing with this for me though.
Thanks Scott! (and Bruce)
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
Jeff,
I think we usually set the torque on AN3 bolts at 40in/lb when going into a
nut plate. That seemed to let them tighten down a little bit. There was
nothing scientific about this number, it just seemed to let the bolt tighten
down about as much as with a nyloc nut at 25in/lb. The other option would
be tapping the nut plate, which we did on some of the smaller ones that
would not allow us to get a bolt in without messing up the head, but I
wouldn't recommend doing that on something that is important. A tunnel
cover inside the cockpit is one thing, but an aileron bell crank it
completely different.
This is just my $.02, but we have over 100 hours on our -10 and the ailerons
are still working (knock on wood).
GOD BLESS!
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Subject: RV10-List: Torque Drag
Back in August we had a protracted discussion about torque values and
whether to add "torque drag" to the torque value table. I've gone
back and read those posts and don't see a definitive answer to that
question... so I'll pose it again in the context of my current dilema.
I'm currently attaching the W-823PP Aileron Bellcrank Brackets to the
spar web and W-1020 Tie-Down Bracket with AN3-5A Bolts into K1000-3
nutplates. At 25 in/lbs of torque the brackets are not at all tight
to the spar web. I've attempted to measure the drag from the
nutplate, but my wrench has a minimum setting of 25 in/lbs and I
don't think interpreting below that is going to be accurate. Any ideas?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
No! Do not tap any nutplates! The nutplate is slightly oval for a
reason, which is to act as a locknut. By tapping the nutplate, you make
the hole round removing any locking properties of the nutplate. You
wouldn't put a regular nut where the plans call for a nyloc nut, so why
would you want to destroy the locking properties of the nutplate?
Sorry to be so harsh, but i've asked this question to an experienced A&P
and he was very adamant about not tapping nutplates.
-Jim
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>Jeff,
>
>I think we usually set the torque on AN3 bolts at 40in/lb when going into a
>nut plate. That seemed to let them tighten down a little bit. There was
>nothing scientific about this number, it just seemed to let the bolt tighten
>down about as much as with a nyloc nut at 25in/lb. The other option would
>be tapping the nut plate, which we did on some of the smaller ones that
>would not allow us to get a bolt in without messing up the head, but I
>wouldn't recommend doing that on something that is important. A tunnel
>cover inside the cockpit is one thing, but an aileron bell crank it
>completely different.
>
>This is just my $.02, but we have over 100 hours on our -10 and the ailerons
>are still working (knock on wood).
>
>GOD BLESS!
>
>Jesse Saint
>I-TEC, Inc.
>jesse(at)itecusa.org
>www.itecusa.org
>W: 352-465-4545
>C: 352-427-0285
>F: 815-377-3694
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
>Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:22 AM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Torque Drag
>
>
>Back in August we had a protracted discussion about torque values and
>whether to add "torque drag" to the torque value table. I've gone
>back and read those posts and don't see a definitive answer to that
>question... so I'll pose it again in the context of my current dilema.
>
>I'm currently attaching the W-823PP Aileron Bellcrank Brackets to the
>spar web and W-1020 Tie-Down Bracket with AN3-5A Bolts into K1000-3
>nutplates. At 25 in/lbs of torque the brackets are not at all tight
>to the spar web. I've attempted to measure the drag from the
>nutplate, but my wrench has a minimum setting of 25 in/lbs and I
>don't think interpreting below that is going to be accurate. Any ideas?
>
>Jeff Carpenter
>40304
>Wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Hukill" <cjhukill(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Glide sloap antenna |
I plan on putting the Nav antennas in my wing tips, but what do you use for the
glide slope?
Also, there are no links for the pictures that are referred to in many messages,
what do I need to do to receive those?
Thanks
Chris Hukill
finished HS
starting Tail cone (elevators shall wait)
flying RV8 http://members.cox.net/cjhukill/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
I agree completely, in the case of bolts in question, which is why I said,
"...but I wouldn't recommend..." In non-important places this can be very
helpful, however, like on the rear passenger side panel covers, where the
screws are very hard to get at to put in or take out, especially with the
extra torque required by the nutplates. Anything important or outside the
airplane should obviously not be tapped.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Torque Drag
No! Do not tap any nutplates! The nutplate is slightly oval for a
reason, which is to act as a locknut. By tapping the nutplate, you make
the hole round removing any locking properties of the nutplate. You
wouldn't put a regular nut where the plans call for a nyloc nut, so why
would you want to destroy the locking properties of the nutplate?
Sorry to be so harsh, but i've asked this question to an experienced A&P
and he was very adamant about not tapping nutplates.
-Jim
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>Jeff,
>
>I think we usually set the torque on AN3 bolts at 40in/lb when going into a
>nut plate. That seemed to let them tighten down a little bit. There was
>nothing scientific about this number, it just seemed to let the bolt
tighten
>down about as much as with a nyloc nut at 25in/lb. The other option would
>be tapping the nut plate, which we did on some of the smaller ones that
>would not allow us to get a bolt in without messing up the head, but I
>wouldn't recommend doing that on something that is important. A tunnel
>cover inside the cockpit is one thing, but an aileron bell crank it
>completely different.
>
>This is just my $.02, but we have over 100 hours on our -10 and the
ailerons
>are still working (knock on wood).
>
>GOD BLESS!
>
>Jesse Saint
>I-TEC, Inc.
>jesse(at)itecusa.org
>www.itecusa.org
>W: 352-465-4545
>C: 352-427-0285
>F: 815-377-3694
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
>Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:22 AM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Torque Drag
>
>
>Back in August we had a protracted discussion about torque values and
>whether to add "torque drag" to the torque value table. I've gone
>back and read those posts and don't see a definitive answer to that
>question... so I'll pose it again in the context of my current dilema.
>
>I'm currently attaching the W-823PP Aileron Bellcrank Brackets to the
>spar web and W-1020 Tie-Down Bracket with AN3-5A Bolts into K1000-3
>nutplates. At 25 in/lbs of torque the brackets are not at all tight
>to the spar web. I've attempted to measure the drag from the
>nutplate, but my wrench has a minimum setting of 25 in/lbs and I
>don't think interpreting below that is going to be accurate. Any ideas?
>
>Jeff Carpenter
>40304
>Wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Sargeant" <k5wiv(at)amsat.org> |
| Subject: | Wing Tip Antennae |
I can't let this one slide. Yes, gain is reciprocal: If an antenna has
gain for transmitting it will have the same gain for receiving. But --
Antennas can not increase the total signal transmitted nor can they increase
the recieved signal from all directions. Antenna gain is achieved by
focusing the signal in a manner simular to the way the reflector in a
flashlight focus the light in one area. Antennas which exibit gain in a 360
degree circle do it only at one elevation angle. If you think in terms of a
conventional antenna on or near the surface of the earth the omnidirectional
gain exibited is achieved by taking power which would be directed vertically
and redirecting it toward the horizon. (For terrestial communications this
is good, but not necessarily so for airborne work.) I could go on and on,
but hopefully you get the message.
Sarge - K5wiv
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing Tip Antennae
DJ,
You are correct in that the gain works for transmitting as well as
receiving. Antennas are antennas, no matter what application they are
used in. As Scotty once said "You cannot change the laws of physics!"
-Jim, 40384, N8VIM
Dj Merrill wrote:
>
>LessDragProd(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>Just a semantics issue. Aircraft antenna's need to be LOW gain
>>antenna's so they can transmit and receive equally well in all directions.
>>
>>IMHO, HIGH gain is a bad thing for aircraft antenna's. (Even if it is a
>>good thing for Ham operations.)
>>
>>Regards,
>>Jim Ayers
>>
>>
>
>Hi Jim,
> I'm certain I do not understand why this would be
>the case, but I'm willing to have it explained to me... :-)
>I believe the gain in an antenna works both
>ways, as in it will not only provide an
>increase in the signal being received, but it will
>also increase the signal being transmitted out.
>In other words, a 5db gain antenna should work much
>better than a 1db gain antenna, all other things
>being equal. I'm referring to omni-directional
>antennas (360 degrees), not uni-directional antennas
>(focused more in one direction than others).
>I don't see why an aircraft AM radio would be any different
>than a Ham AM radio in this context.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding how an antenna works?
>
>-Dj
>Ham operator N1JOV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae - Marker Beacon |
Dan Checkoway has some information on his wing tip marker beacon
installation
here <http://www.rvproject.com/20040128.html> and
here <http://www.rvproject.com/20040201.html>
From Scott's photos it looks like he is installing a similar
arrangement the photo is here
<http://scottandranae.smugmug.com/gallery/124475/4/8847036>
I am planning on having the Archer style nav antenna in each wing tip.
Where does the marker beacon antenna go (in the wing tip) in relation to
the nav antenna?
Larry Rosen
#356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert E. Lynch" <rv6lynch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O/IO-540 For sale |
Hi Phil.
Have you had any interest in your engine? I might know of a buyer. Contact
me of line.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Ochs <jochs(at)froody.org> |
| Subject: | back rivet plate rust |
Hey all,
I haven't done any back riveting for a little while and I just looked at
my back rivet plate and theres a nice big rust spot on it. Amazingly
enough, it looks almost exactly like a palm print :P Apparently I must
have picked it up or something without wiping it down after using it.
Anyway, any suggestions on how to polish that out?
Thanks,
James
#40400
Elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Cherry Blind Rivets |
I think I've figured out something that will
work for me (hopefully). Van's has the AACQ-4-3 and
AACQ-4-4 1/8 structural pop rivets (alum shank and alum
mandrel), and Aircraft Spruce has BSC-34 3/32 non-structural
pop rivets (alum shank and steel mandrel). All of these
are 120 degree flush, not 100, so I've ordered an inexpensive
120 degree dimple tool from Aircraft Spruce p/n 17014
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/dimpltool.php>
If anyone is interested, I'll report back after
I get them and try them out.
Thanks for all the help and advice!
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: back rivet plate rust |
Should come off fine with your 3M wheel or pad, followed up by some
acetone or similar.
-Sean #40303
James Ochs wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I haven't done any back riveting for a little while and I just looked
> at my back rivet plate and theres a nice big rust spot on it.
> Amazingly enough, it looks almost exactly like a palm print :P
> Apparently I must have picked it up or something without wiping it
> down after using it. Anyway, any suggestions on how to polish that out?
>
> Thanks,
> James
> #40400
> Elevators
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sean Blair" <seanblair(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | back rivet plate rust |
James,
I had a similar issue with mine and just used scotchbrite (green) then
followed it up with a little oil (WD40). Make sure you sand with the grain.
Seemed to work great and it's good as new.
Sean
40225
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
Hey all,
I haven't done any back riveting for a little while and I just looked at
my back rivet plate and theres a nice big rust spot on it. Amazingly
enough, it looks almost exactly like a palm print :P Apparently I must
have picked it up or something without wiping it down after using it.
Anyway, any suggestions on how to polish that out?
Thanks,
James
#40400
Elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Antennae - Marker Beacon |
The marker beacon antenna mounts in the bottom of the wingtip 3" outboard of
the wing skin. The trailing edge end is mounted as far back in the wingtip
as possible. The rest of the antenna is mounted parallel with the wing skin.
The NAV antenna should be mounted as far forward as possible in the top of
the wingtip.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 10/23/2005 9:16:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
LarryRosen(at)comcast.net writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen
Dan Checkoway has some information on his wing tip marker beacon
installation
here <http://www.rvproject.com/20040128.html> and
here <http://www.rvproject.com/20040201.html>
From Scott's photos it looks like he is installing a similar
arrangement the photo is here
<http://scottandranae.smugmug.com/gallery/124475/4/8847036>
I am planning on having the Archer style nav antenna in each wing tip.
Where does the marker beacon antenna go (in the wing tip) in relation to
the nav antenna?
Larry Rosen
#356
________________________________________________________________________________
h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:
2FPlx5Lz/rgnWJopJwMqg==
| From: | Ed Godfrey <egodfrey(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Approximate hours |
To those of you who have completed either the complete RV-10 or those
that have completed complete sections such as the empennage, wings,
fuselage and/or the finish kit, would you be able to you supply me with
the approximate hours per section? Am trying to calculate a budgeting
timeline. Thanks.
Ed Godfrey
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | back rivet plate rust |
If it is small enough, grease it up and put it in your oven like you
would a cast iron skillet. Season to taste!! This was a tip from my
builders course.
Bobby
40116
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Blair
Subject: RE: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
James,
I had a similar issue with mine and just used scotchbrite (green) then
followed it up with a little oil (WD40). Make sure you sand with the
grain.
Seemed to work great and it's good as new.
Sean
40225
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
Hey all,
I haven't done any back riveting for a little while and I just looked at
my back rivet plate and theres a nice big rust spot on it. Amazingly
enough, it looks almost exactly like a palm print :P Apparently I must
have picked it up or something without wiping it down after using it.
Anyway, any suggestions on how to polish that out?
Thanks,
James
#40400
Elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | back rivet plate rust |
It may be a little late for this, but I kept the original special paper that
the plate was wrapped in to keep it looking good. No big spots yet, and
never wiped down here in humid AL. If you've recently bought your special
bucking bar commercially than you'll have some more paper you can keep to
wrap it in.
Rob
40392
Elevators
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Subject: RE: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
If it is small enough, grease it up and put it in your oven like you
would a cast iron skillet. Season to taste!! This was a tip from my
builders course.
Bobby
40116
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Blair
Subject: RE: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
James,
I had a similar issue with mine and just used scotchbrite (green) then
followed it up with a little oil (WD40). Make sure you sand with the
grain.
Seemed to work great and it's good as new.
Sean
40225
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: back rivet plate rust
Hey all,
I haven't done any back riveting for a little while and I just looked at
my back rivet plate and theres a nice big rust spot on it. Amazingly
enough, it looks almost exactly like a palm print :P Apparently I must
have picked it up or something without wiping it down after using it.
Anyway, any suggestions on how to polish that out?
Thanks,
James
#40400
Elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine Mount Clearance update |
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
So there's no reliable way to know about engine sump clearance until you try it,
eh?
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Engine Mount Clearance update
Van's got my engine mount this week and turned it around a.s.a.p.
I have a few photos from Scott, and did a write-up here for you all.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/engine/20051022/index.html
If you read the above link, you can disregard the rest of this
email. It's just a repost of the text for the archives.
Tim
They have been very very good at dealing with this issue for me. I
think that hearing it from a few people now, they determined that there
may be a potential issue for some customers and they wanted to figure it
out a.s.a.p. and come up with a correction or a plan. I sent them my
engine mount via FedEx and they got it the same week. They actually
analyzed it right away the first day they got it in, and dropped me a
note. Then, on Friday (the next day), they actually had someone come in
to perform the welding so they could ship it out that same day. (This
is extra special, since the guys who do this work 4 tens, and don't
usually work Friday). They also offered to powder coat the weld if I
wanted to wait a week or so for powder coating, but I opted to get the
mount back a.s.a.p. so they were going to try to ship it back Friday.
Great service....turn around in one day.
Here are some facts:
When they placed the engine mount in their test case, they had 3/16" to
almost 1/4" clearance. That's still not 1/2", but it's about double
what I had (.063 to .125") They feel there must be a difference in the
sumps. I gave them my sump numbers because they want to investigate
what the difference is. My numbers were:
REV G
78066
EQ-2
W
and a number that looks like Z1902
They say they aren't seeing any problem with the brand new Lycoming
engines they're selling. Their first-glance look seems to indicate that
my sump may be an off number from what they are used to seeing.
Remember that any engine you buy, Aerosport, or any other
non-factory-new, will be a rebuild that will potentially be built out of
cases and sumps from any model year or number. This could cause some of
these small variations. There is no such thing as an "Aerosport IO-540"
as one list member wrote. They are all just rebuilds of other IO-540's
that aren't factory new....and can be of various previous lineages.
It is also interesting to note that according to Van's, the cross bar in
question was determined unnecessary by engineering, but someone working
with the engine mounts decided to add it anyway to add more structure
and support. Given the solid design, I'd believe this, but when you see
the mount, I think it's still best to have the bar there. That said, I
can't picture there being hardly any stress on this particular joint. I
could picture the "fix" being done without welding....cutting the tube,
and bolting in a curved piece. Of course, a bolted joint would give
more opportunity for corrosion where the tubes meet, so I'm happy with
the welding option.
So my modded engine mount is now enroute back to me, and I should be
able to hang the engine for next weekend. It was a bit of a pain, but
at least it didn't cause a major slowdown. My advice? Get your engine
and mount hung while you're working on the canopy and fuselage. Then
you can tell if you have any issues, and can pull it immediately and
send it out for rework without slowing anything down. I am under the
impression that Van's might be willing to work with future builders on
this problem. I am not sure if they plan to make this mod part of their
general contstruction in the future. If anyone gets that answer, let me
know. They have been very good dealing with this for me though.
Thanks Scott! (and Bruce)
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Gesele <tgesele(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange |
While cleaning up the tailcone bulkheads, noticed a couple of small cracks
in the F-1010 & F-1008R bulkheads in the inner stiffener flange that appear
to have been caused while the parts were being pressed. The cracks are very
small, probably only a few 1000ths thick and < 1/4" long so you really need
to look closely, and are located in the top radius of the bulkheads.
I've kicked around replacing them, spoke to Vans who said not to worry but
stop-drill the cracks if it gives me piece of mind. Probably will stop drill
and put doubler on web (gross overkill but why not) but still undecided.
My question is has anyone else noticed this? If this is a common occurrence,
then replacing the bulkhead won't accomplish anything and my decision is
easy.
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473 - Tailcone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> |
| Subject: | Fwd: Torque values for AN3 Bolts into K1000-3 nutplates |
0.15 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY: HTML contains text after BODY close tag
Here's my response from Vans to the question of torque drag...
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Bruce Reynolds" <brucer(at)vansaircraft.com>
> Date: October 21, 2005 12:12:16 PM PDT
> To: Jeff Carpenter
> Subject: Re: Torque values for AN3 Bolts into K1000-3 nutplates
>
>
> Jeff,
>
> We don't have a torque chart for putting bolts into nutplates. Just
> get the bolt tight by feel. The danger is not leaving them too loose,
> but in breaking off the bolt if too tight. Once the parts are seated
> snug to each other, then you can stop. You could always make a
> test fixture and see what it takes to break off a bolt in a nutplate.
>
>
> Bruce Reynolds
> brucer(at)vansaircraft.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange |
| From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Tom, post to this list the individual at VAN's telling you that
stop-drilling corrects for using worn dies during the CNC manufacture.
Your kidding yourself if you buy off that the problem ends with a stop
drill.
This exact problem began in the kit #350 range and I can now conclude it
was not resolved by #475.
Quality parts should be a reasonable expectation on the 10. It has been
unfortunately too overlooked. Tom was the source of such direction back
near #350. Even the replacement part was cracked. Go Figure. Builders
in this series should know what to look for and request a correction.
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele
Subject: RV10-List: F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange
While cleaning up the tailcone bulkheads, noticed a couple of small
cracks
in the F-1010 & F-1008R bulkheads in the inner stiffener flange that
appear
to have been caused while the parts were being pressed. The cracks are
very
small, probably only a few 1000ths thick and < 1/4" long so you really
need
to look closely, and are located in the top radius of the bulkheads.
I've kicked around replacing them, spoke to Vans who said not to worry
but
stop-drill the cracks if it gives me piece of mind. Probably will stop
drill
and put doubler on web (gross overkill but why not) but still undecided.
My question is has anyone else noticed this? If this is a common
occurrence,
then replacing the bulkhead won't accomplish anything and my decision is
easy.
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473 - Tailcone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flap Positioning System Contact info |
| From: | "Harris, Jeremy P" <jeremy.p.harris(at)boeing.com> |
Does anyone have the phone number to "Show Planes" in Medford, OR? It's
printed on the flap positioning box for the RV-10.
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Flap Positioning System Contact info |
You can get Brian Melani at 541 773-3344. I believe that's the office
number.
Bob K 40125
Fuselage, just joined the front to center section
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harris, Jeremy P
Subject: RV10-List: Flap Positioning System Contact info
Does anyone have the phone number to "Show Planes" in Medford, OR? It's
printed on the flap positioning box for the RV-10.
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal George" <neal(at)appaero.com> |
| Subject: | Andair Fuel Valves |
Gentlemen -
Like many of you, I wanted an aircraft-quality fuel valve for my RV. I
met with Andair's rep at Sun'N'Fun and explained our dilemma - common
fittings made the valves too big for the space provided and banjo
fittings are expensive, hard to find and add unnecessary joints to the
system.
The result of that conversation is the Andair FS20x7t. Details and
(poor) pictures here: www.appaero.com/andair.htm
The first shipment arrived last week and I have a few left.
Cost is $250 delivered.
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG (fuselage)
RV-8 N998GM (canoe flipped)
Home - 334-262-8993
Cell - 334-546-2033
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com> |
I had to do some filling in around the depression insert Anh. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Subject: RV10-List: Air Box Recess
Anyone successfully fluted the recess to fit the air box and top plate?
I'm resorting to glassing the hole in.
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets |
What technique did you use to rivet the nut plate that holds the wing
tip light lenses in place?
I have already drilled the hole to mount the nut plate. The rivet holes
are 1/16" from the lenses recess edge which seems to close to get a flat
set on. I cannot back rivet because the rivet gun with a back rivet set
will not fit inside the wing tip.
Help please.
Larry Rosen
#356
Wing Tips
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Hey all -
Has anyone had problems with the alignment of the bearing hole when you
try to cleco W-1013B-L to W-1013B-R with W-1013A in the middle? When I
cleco together using the rivet holes, there's almost 1/8" of
misalignment between the counterbored holes that capture the bearing. I
called Vans, and they didn't see how it was possible, but I'm looking at
the part and it's plain as day. My wing kit arrived in august, so it's
fairly recent. Anyone with a recent wing kit delivery have the same
issue? The problem (I think) is with the part W-1013C-L, because that
same part is used for the inner bracket on one side, and the outer of
the other, and they're both hosed.
Thanks
cj
#40410
wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets |
Hi,
use a blind rivet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV10-List: Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets
>
> What technique did you use to rivet the nut plate that holds the wing
> tip light lenses in place?
>
> I have already drilled the hole to mount the nut plate. The rivet holes
> are 1/16" from the lenses recess edge which seems to close to get a flat
> set on. I cannot back rivet because the rivet gun with a back rivet set
> will not fit inside the wing tip.
>
> Help please.
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
> Wing Tips
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey C. Van Dam, P.E." <jcvandam(at)mgci.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment |
I'm having the same problem with bearing hole. When I put the bearing in
the rivet holes close to the bearing are off by almost 1/8". I drilled the
rivet holes to final size and now have elongated holes. I haven't yet
decided on a fix.
Jeff Van Dam
#40265
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment
>
> Hey all -
>
> Has anyone had problems with the alignment of the bearing hole when you
> try to cleco W-1013B-L to W-1013B-R with W-1013A in the middle? When I
> cleco together using the rivet holes, there's almost 1/8" of
> misalignment between the counterbored holes that capture the bearing. I
> called Vans, and they didn't see how it was possible, but I'm looking at
> the part and it's plain as day. My wing kit arrived in august, so it's
> fairly recent. Anyone with a recent wing kit delivery have the same
> issue? The problem (I think) is with the part W-1013C-L, because that
> same part is used for the inner bracket on one side, and the outer of
> the other, and they're both hosed.
>
> Thanks
> cj
> #40410
> wings
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Hey Jeff -
After I spoke with the tech guy, I ordered new parts, and I'm sending
them my old misaligned brackets. I'm leaving them clecoed together with
a note so that the problem is VERY apparent. Not sure what I'll do if
the new ones have the same problem.
cj
#40410
wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey C.
Van Dam, P.E.
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment
I'm having the same problem with bearing hole. When I put the bearing
in
the rivet holes close to the bearing are off by almost 1/8". I drilled
the
rivet holes to final size and now have elongated holes. I haven't yet
decided on a fix.
Jeff Van Dam
#40265
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment
>
> Hey all -
>
> Has anyone had problems with the alignment of the bearing hole when
you
> try to cleco W-1013B-L to W-1013B-R with W-1013A in the middle? When
I
> cleco together using the rivet holes, there's almost 1/8" of
> misalignment between the counterbored holes that capture the bearing.
I
> called Vans, and they didn't see how it was possible, but I'm looking
at
> the part and it's plain as day. My wing kit arrived in august, so
it's
> fairly recent. Anyone with a recent wing kit delivery have the same
> issue? The problem (I think) is with the part W-1013C-L, because that
> same part is used for the inner bracket on one side, and the outer of
> the other, and they're both hosed.
>
> Thanks
> cj
> #40410
> wings
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment |
Just so you know how mine did,
My bearings were an almost perfect, machined fit, only slight pressure was needed
for them to snap nicely in place and the two brackets lined up perfectly for
drilling and riveting. For some reason several builders are having trouble and
it has to be in the manufacture of the brackets or undersized OD on the bearing.(
Unless there is a way you can mismatch your pieces somehow or over deburring
as one member said he did.) This is a major hingepoint connection and you
don't even want to second guess the integrity. Slop could lead to catastrophic
failure from flutter and you may not see the slop until it is too late. Van's
has always been responsive to me, get your parts, take photos, measurements
and email them to support and wait for them to respond or setup a phone call
after they have reviewed the pictures etc. so you can discuss. Make your case
so you don't get the "that's not possible" response.
Just my @ cents worth
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets |
Wish I had thought of that....I used what is called a suicide rivet set. Basically
a set without the mushroom head on it. The back rivet set works well as a
suicide, just drive out the roll pin and try it but heck the blind rivet is a
perfect resolution to the problem.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Testement" <jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets |
I turned the nutplate parallel to the edge - plenty of room to put in one
good rivet. I then epoxyed the other nutplate lug to the fiberglass. Seems
to work out just fine.
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Finishing QB wings, starting QB fuse
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAS
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets
-->
Hi,
use a blind rivet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV10-List: Wing Tip Light Lens Nut Plate Rivets
>
> What technique did you use to rivet the nut plate that holds the wing
> tip light lenses in place?
>
> I have already drilled the hole to mount the nut plate. The rivet holes
> are 1/16" from the lenses recess edge which seems to close to get a flat
> set on. I cannot back rivet because the rivet gun with a back rivet set
> will not fit inside the wing tip.
>
> Help please.
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
> Wing Tips
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)earthlink.net> |
"Jeff Carpenter"
| Subject: | Re: [RV10] Revisiting Torque |
You need a torque wrench with lower values. I have a 0-75 inch pound (dial gauge)
that covers most areas. For self locking nuts either nylock or ovalized steel
(nut plates) you should measure the torque required to turn the nut/bolt after
at least a couple of threads have entered past the end of the nut. This is
the run on torque. As the bolt/nut approaches clamping of the parts torque will
rise. You SHOULD torque to the value in the table for the bolt PLUS the run
on torque you measured. I measured several nylocks and decided they were consistent
enough to use the same run on value then I just add this to the torque
table value. So I don't always check the run on torque every time. Example:
If the table is 25 in-lbs max, and run on torque is 7 in-lbs then max torque you
actually should apply is 32 in-lbs. (This is the way the standard practices
manual for GE engines explains it)
Chris L
#40072
N919AR
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Carpenter
To: RV Group
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 2:10 PM
Subject: [RV10] Revisiting Torque
Back in August we had a protracted discussion about torque values and
whether to add "torque drag" to the torque value table. I've gone
back and read those posts and don't see a definitive answer to that
question... so I'll pose it again in the context of my current dilema.
I'm currently attaching the W-823PP Aileron Bellcrank Brackets to the
spar web and W-1020 Tie-Down Bracket with AN3-5A Bolts into K1000-3
nutplates. At 25 in/lbs of torque the brackets are not at all tight
to the spar web. I've attempted to measure the drag from the
nutplate, but my wrench has a minimum setting of 25 in/lbs and I
don't think interpreting below that is going to be accurate. Any ideas?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wings
a.. Visit your group "RV10" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Bracket Bearing hole misalignment |
I had the same problem and Vans's replaced my parts after I e-mailed them.
It was the W-1013B-L that was misaligned. The new ones fit perfectly. My
wings were shipped around May of this year. A fellow builder in my area had
the same problem.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all the
two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types of lenses
use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a stress crack
developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you overtighten the
screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart the wingtip maybe
taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being paranoid, I have no
experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks like a weak point to me.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wingtip lens |
I just did my lenses tonight....post-painting. Have a tip, and
want to comment on this thread.
First, back on the riveting: Doing the lens fitting after painting
(stupid me) I didn't want to risk riveting using pounded rivets.
In fact, I think given the location, I'd rather never use pounded
rivets in that location. I found my solution. I did everything
as listed in the plans, including the nutplate orientation. But,
then I substituted these rivets: CCR-264SS-3-2 We had them that
I believe came with the tailcone section....don't know where they're
supposed to be used. Anyway, they're heavy-duty rivets, but in
this application, they aren't. What happens is when you pull
the rivet, the fit isn't tight enough, especially in fiberglass, to
snap the shaft. So, it expands the rivet shank, capturing the
nutplate...then the shaft pulls right through. It should hold that
nutplate plenty, with no worry since it's not structural anyway.
Sure, the rivets are $.19 each, but it sure is more comfortable
than hammering!
Now, on to the thread... Yes John, after doing mine tonight,
I totally agree with you that 2 screws, especially as placed,
are not enough for me to be comfortable. There's a tiny bit
of slop in the tip covers, and I can easily see that 200mph
air sneaking under the front corner and ripping that thing
right off. So, my plan is to order a few more of those rivets
I mentioned above, and put in 2 more nutplates per side....
about 1/3 the way back from the leading edge, on top and bottom.
Then I should feel pretty good about it, as the back side will
not probably ever cause any problems.
Part of that problem is made an issue because the lens doesn't
make the same exact curve as that flange it rests on does.
The lens contacts the corner of it, but isn't flush along
the whole flange. Perhaps a tiny bit of heat on the lens, and
a slight bend along the flange area to flush it up might
help....I'm still considering it.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all
> the two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types of
> lenses use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a stress
> crack developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you
> overtighten the screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart the
> wingtip maybe taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being
> paranoid, I have no experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks
> like a weak point to me.
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Testement" <jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com> |
Tim,
I did heat my lens with a heat gun and smoothed it into shape with a cloth.
It worked great to fit the lens perfectly to the contour.
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Finishing QB wings, starting QB fuse
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
I just did my lenses tonight....post-painting. Have a tip, and want to
comment on this thread.
First, back on the riveting: Doing the lens fitting after painting (stupid
me) I didn't want to risk riveting using pounded rivets.
In fact, I think given the location, I'd rather never use pounded
rivets in that location. I found my solution. I did everything
as listed in the plans, including the nutplate orientation. But,
then I substituted these rivets: CCR-264SS-3-2 We had them that
I believe came with the tailcone section....don't know where they're
supposed to be used. Anyway, they're heavy-duty rivets, but in this
application, they aren't. What happens is when you pull the rivet, the fit
isn't tight enough, especially in fiberglass, to snap the shaft. So, it
expands the rivet shank, capturing the nutplate...then the shaft pulls right
through. It should hold that nutplate plenty, with no worry since it's not
structural anyway.
Sure, the rivets are $.19 each, but it sure is more comfortable than
hammering!
Now, on to the thread... Yes John, after doing mine tonight,
I totally agree with you that 2 screws, especially as placed, are not enough
for me to be comfortable. There's a tiny bit of slop in the tip covers, and
I can easily see that 200mph air sneaking under the front corner and ripping
that thing
right off. So, my plan is to order a few more of those rivets
I mentioned above, and put in 2 more nutplates per side....
about 1/3 the way back from the leading edge, on top and bottom.
Then I should feel pretty good about it, as the back side will not probably
ever cause any problems.
Part of that problem is made an issue because the lens doesn't make the same
exact curve as that flange it rests on does.
The lens contacts the corner of it, but isn't flush along the whole flange.
Perhaps a tiny bit of heat on the lens, and a slight bend along the flange
area to flush it up might help....I'm still considering it.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
John Hasbrouck wrote:
> -->
>
> While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all
> the two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types
> of lenses use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a
> stress crack developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you
> overtighten the screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart
> the wingtip maybe taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being
> paranoid, I have no experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks
> like a weak point to me.
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Indran Chelvanayagam" <ichelva(at)netspace.net.au> |
Here's one solution I found amongst the multiple RVs parked at Oshkosh this
year...
Looks pretty secure to me ;-)
Indran Chelvanayagam
#40228
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
-->
While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all the
two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types of lenses
use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a stress crack
developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you overtighten the
screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart the wingtip maybe
taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being paranoid, I have no
experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks like a weak point to me.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wingtip lens |
Good to know. I'm sure that also helps add to the security if you only
use 2 screws...it's harder for it to pop out if the front and rear edges
are are tight to the wingtip. I'll try the heat gun approach, but
I'll have to be careful of the paint.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
John Testement wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> I did heat my lens with a heat gun and smoothed it into shape with a cloth.
> It worked great to fit the lens perfectly to the contour.
>
> John Testement
> jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
> 40321
> Finishing QB wings, starting QB fuse
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:18 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
>
>
> I just did my lenses tonight....post-painting. Have a tip, and want to
> comment on this thread.
>
> First, back on the riveting: Doing the lens fitting after painting (stupid
> me) I didn't want to risk riveting using pounded rivets.
> In fact, I think given the location, I'd rather never use pounded
> rivets in that location. I found my solution. I did everything
> as listed in the plans, including the nutplate orientation. But,
> then I substituted these rivets: CCR-264SS-3-2 We had them that
> I believe came with the tailcone section....don't know where they're
> supposed to be used. Anyway, they're heavy-duty rivets, but in this
> application, they aren't. What happens is when you pull the rivet, the fit
> isn't tight enough, especially in fiberglass, to snap the shaft. So, it
> expands the rivet shank, capturing the nutplate...then the shaft pulls right
> through. It should hold that nutplate plenty, with no worry since it's not
> structural anyway.
> Sure, the rivets are $.19 each, but it sure is more comfortable than
> hammering!
>
> Now, on to the thread... Yes John, after doing mine tonight,
> I totally agree with you that 2 screws, especially as placed, are not enough
> for me to be comfortable. There's a tiny bit of slop in the tip covers, and
> I can easily see that 200mph air sneaking under the front corner and ripping
> that thing
> right off. So, my plan is to order a few more of those rivets
> I mentioned above, and put in 2 more nutplates per side....
> about 1/3 the way back from the leading edge, on top and bottom.
> Then I should feel pretty good about it, as the back side will not probably
> ever cause any problems.
>
> Part of that problem is made an issue because the lens doesn't make the same
> exact curve as that flange it rests on does.
> The lens contacts the corner of it, but isn't flush along the whole flange.
> Perhaps a tiny bit of heat on the lens, and a slight bend along the flange
> area to flush it up might help....I'm still considering it.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>
>
> John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
>>-->
>>
>>While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all
>>the two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types
>>of lenses use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a
>>stress crack developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you
>>overtighten the screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart
>>the wingtip maybe taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being
>>paranoid, I have no experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks
>>like a weak point to me.
>>
>>John Hasbrouck
>>#40264
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Box Recess |
Thanks Randy. My insert did not work at all. It was not deep enough laterally
to clear the fuel mixture arm. I made the recess out of glass.
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy DeBauw
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Air Box Recess
I had to do some filling in around the depression insert Anh. Randy
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:46 PM
To: RV10
Subject: RV10-List: Air Box Recess
Anyone successfully fluted the recess to fit the air box and top plate? I'm
resorting to glassing the hole in.
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
Another list member emailed me recently that they were keeping track of
all of the incidentals and things that weren't in the kit...shipping,
extra nuts and bolts from the hardware store, glues, and things like
that. They're currently up to $5100 or so, working through the engine
stage with a bunch of things left to go, so there will be a lot of
other incidentals coming.
That got me wondering where I came out. At this point, everything
that I have left to buy is an incidental, and I'd never done any
addition. My list isn't 100% complete either. So a quick rundown
of my spreadsheet to remove things like engine, prop, all kit parts,
including some things that I bought because I broke them, no tools,
and all avionics, I have a rough total too. Mine does include paints,
primers, and all those things....seat belts, lighting, and all that good
stuff... even engine oil for the break in. My current total is
$13,250 approx. I expect at least another $400-500, if not double or
triple that much, as I complete the kit. (There are some extra
nuts and bolts in there that I won't need, but it's nice to have
a stock of them and it's not worth worrying about an extra
$200-500 in hardware.)
This all shouldn't be taken as a complaint at all, because I'm not
intending to start a gripe about what isn't included....there are
good reasons that these things are options for the most part.
But, for those lurkers who are trying to come up with an estimate
on kit costs, after purchasing the kit itself, these 2 data points
might help form a good estimated starting point. Most of the
costs are pretty predictible on the big items. I would caution
the prospective builder though to not under estimate their panel
and avionics costs. That's where you're most likely to blow
your budget. Get a quote on what you think is a panel that fits
you, and add $10,000 to it just in case...it goes fast.
One word of warning....not everyone is comfortable with the idea of
adding up their total kit costs, so think about it before you
do it.....and then decide if you do, can you tell your wife. ;)
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com> |
ON my RV-9 I have 4 on top and 4 on bottom, 2 along each side of the
lense. I think I am going to put 3 on my RV-10, one in the corner like
Van's says and then one extra one half way between the leading edge and
the aft edge.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all
the
two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types of
lenses
use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a stress crack
developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you overtighten the
screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart the wingtip maybe
taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being paranoid, I have no
experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks like a weak point to
me.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com> |
Be careful before you put the nutplates too close to the leading edge
because the curve on the outside of the tip will be different then the
curve on the inside where the nutplates are. This can cause the screw
to be at an angle to the outside surface and looks bad when you have to
countersink the lense and the screw is sticking up on one side and
countersunk too deep on the other. I would stay at least 2 - 3 inches
back from the leading edge.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
I just did my lenses tonight....post-painting. Have a tip, and
want to comment on this thread.
First, back on the riveting: Doing the lens fitting after painting
(stupid me) I didn't want to risk riveting using pounded rivets.
In fact, I think given the location, I'd rather never use pounded
rivets in that location. I found my solution. I did everything
as listed in the plans, including the nutplate orientation. But,
then I substituted these rivets: CCR-264SS-3-2 We had them that
I believe came with the tailcone section....don't know where they're
supposed to be used. Anyway, they're heavy-duty rivets, but in
this application, they aren't. What happens is when you pull
the rivet, the fit isn't tight enough, especially in fiberglass, to
snap the shaft. So, it expands the rivet shank, capturing the
nutplate...then the shaft pulls right through. It should hold that
nutplate plenty, with no worry since it's not structural anyway.
Sure, the rivets are $.19 each, but it sure is more comfortable
than hammering!
Now, on to the thread... Yes John, after doing mine tonight,
I totally agree with you that 2 screws, especially as placed,
are not enough for me to be comfortable. There's a tiny bit
of slop in the tip covers, and I can easily see that 200mph
air sneaking under the front corner and ripping that thing
right off. So, my plan is to order a few more of those rivets
I mentioned above, and put in 2 more nutplates per side....
about 1/3 the way back from the leading edge, on top and bottom.
Then I should feel pretty good about it, as the back side will
not probably ever cause any problems.
Part of that problem is made an issue because the lens doesn't
make the same exact curve as that flange it rests on does.
The lens contacts the corner of it, but isn't flush along
the whole flange. Perhaps a tiny bit of heat on the lens, and
a slight bend along the flange area to flush it up might
help....I'm still considering it.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all
> the two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types
of
> lenses use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a
stress
> crack developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you
> overtighten the screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart
the
> wingtip maybe taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being
> paranoid, I have no experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks
> like a weak point to me.
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
Yeah, it's best to save your spreadsheet somewhere on the computer where
your wife is not going to find it!
Maybe give it a fake filename like "Baseball Stats" . . . : )
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Incidentals
Another list member emailed me recently that they were keeping track of
all of the incidentals and things that weren't in the kit...shipping,
extra nuts and bolts from the hardware store, glues, and things like
that. They're currently up to $5100 or so, working through the engine
stage with a bunch of things left to go, so there will be a lot of
other incidentals coming.
That got me wondering where I came out. At this point, everything
that I have left to buy is an incidental, and I'd never done any
addition. My list isn't 100% complete either. So a quick rundown
of my spreadsheet to remove things like engine, prop, all kit parts,
including some things that I bought because I broke them, no tools,
and all avionics, I have a rough total too. Mine does include paints,
primers, and all those things....seat belts, lighting, and all that good
stuff... even engine oil for the break in. My current total is
$13,250 approx. I expect at least another $400-500, if not double or
triple that much, as I complete the kit. (There are some extra
nuts and bolts in there that I won't need, but it's nice to have
a stock of them and it's not worth worrying about an extra
$200-500 in hardware.)
This all shouldn't be taken as a complaint at all, because I'm not
intending to start a gripe about what isn't included....there are
good reasons that these things are options for the most part.
But, for those lurkers who are trying to come up with an estimate
on kit costs, after purchasing the kit itself, these 2 data points
might help form a good estimated starting point. Most of the
costs are pretty predictible on the big items. I would caution
the prospective builder though to not under estimate their panel
and avionics costs. That's where you're most likely to blow
your budget. Get a quote on what you think is a panel that fits
you, and add $10,000 to it just in case...it goes fast.
One word of warning....not everyone is comfortable with the idea of
adding up their total kit costs, so think about it before you
do it.....and then decide if you do, can you tell your wife. ;)
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cram" <johncram(at)msn.com> |
Now everyone knows where yours is.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Dawson-Townsend<mailto:Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Incidentals
Yeah, it's best to save your spreadsheet somewhere on the computer where
your wife is not going to find it!
Maybe give it a fake filename like "Baseball Stats" . . . : )
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:11 AM
To: RV10
Subject: RV10-List: Incidentals
Another list member emailed me recently that they were keeping track of
all of the incidentals and things that weren't in the kit...shipping,
extra nuts and bolts from the hardware store, glues, and things like
that. They're currently up to $5100 or so, working through the engine
stage with a bunch of things left to go, so there will be a lot of
other incidentals coming.
That got me wondering where I came out. At this point, everything
that I have left to buy is an incidental, and I'd never done any
addition. My list isn't 100% complete either. So a quick rundown
of my spreadsheet to remove things like engine, prop, all kit parts,
including some things that I bought because I broke them, no tools,
and all avionics, I have a rough total too. Mine does include paints,
primers, and all those things....seat belts, lighting, and all that good
stuff... even engine oil for the break in. My current total is
$13,250 approx. I expect at least another $400-500, if not double or
triple that much, as I complete the kit. (There are some extra
nuts and bolts in there that I won't need, but it's nice to have
a stock of them and it's not worth worrying about an extra
$200-500 in hardware.)
This all shouldn't be taken as a complaint at all, because I'm not
intending to start a gripe about what isn't included....there are
good reasons that these things are options for the most part.
But, for those lurkers who are trying to come up with an estimate
on kit costs, after purchasing the kit itself, these 2 data points
might help form a good estimated starting point. Most of the
costs are pretty predictible on the big items. I would caution
the prospective builder though to not under estimate their panel
and avionics costs. That's where you're most likely to blow
your budget. Get a quote on what you think is a panel that fits
you, and add $10,000 to it just in case...it goes fast.
One word of warning....not everyone is comfortable with the idea of
adding up their total kit costs, so think about it before you
do it.....and then decide if you do, can you tell your wife. ;)
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
igator?RV10-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Observations |
Hi John,
Great observations!
Suggest 7a.) When you can't see the bucked side of the rivet, press on it
with your finger tip, and then look at your finger tip to see what the bucked
side of the rivet looks like. Your finger tip makes a good transfer tool.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
PS Watch for sharp edges, where the bucking bar wasn't fully on the rivet.
In a message dated 10/26/2005 1:17:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jjessen(at)rcn.com writes:
Some general observations.
(Stuff Cut)
7. Go buy the auto mechanic's version of a dental mirror with a long
handle. Makes a great tool to see how those rivets that were out of sight and
being set by feel actually turned out.
(Stuff Cut)
Just some observations.
John Jessen
40328 HS
do not archive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
We put two extra screws on the inboard edge of the lenses, one on the top
and one on the bottom. We felt the same way you did.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Wingtip lens
While were on the subject of the wingtip lens, does it look to you all the
two screws are enough? Every store bought plane with these types of lenses
use multiple flush screws to hold the lens in place. If a stress crack
developes at one of the screw holes, ( easy to do if you overtighten the
screw) it wouldn't take long for the lens to depart the wingtip maybe
taking some of the wingtip with it. Maybe I'm being paranoid, I have no
experience with other Van's wingtips, but it looks like a weak point to me.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nikolaos Napoli <owl40188(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange |
I think I might be one of the first people that informed Vans of this as they appeared
surprised when I mentioned it. Kit number 40188. I had cracks in the
lower portion of the forward tailcone bulkhead only. I sent pictures to Vans
so they could figure out what was causing it. They sent me a new part which
did not have any cracks in it.
Niko
"John W. Cox" wrote:
Tom, post to this list the individual at VAN's telling you that
stop-drilling corrects for using worn dies during the CNC manufacture.
Your kidding yourself if you buy off that the problem ends with a stop
drill.
This exact problem began in the kit #350 range and I can now conclude it
was not resolved by #475.
Quality parts should be a reasonable expectation on the 10. It has been
unfortunately too overlooked. Tom was the source of such direction back
near #350. Even the replacement part was cracked. Go Figure. Builders
in this series should know what to look for and request a correction.
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele
Subject: RV10-List: F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange
While cleaning up the tailcone bulkheads, noticed a couple of small
cracks
in the F-1010 & F-1008R bulkheads in the inner stiffener flange that
appear
to have been caused while the parts were being pressed. The cracks are
very
small, probably only a few 1000ths thick and < 1/4" long so you really
need
to look closely, and are located in the top radius of the bulkheads.
I've kicked around replacing them, spoke to Vans who said not to worry
but
stop-drill the cracks if it gives me piece of mind. Probably will stop
drill
and put doubler on web (gross overkill but why not) but still undecided.
My question is has anyone else noticed this? If this is a common
occurrence,
then replacing the bulkhead won't accomplish anything and my decision is
easy.
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473 - Tailcone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | door securtiy kit |
Mine arrived to day unsolicited; 40168
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-10 24v Flap Positioning System |
FYI -
If anyone is putting together a 24 volt ship, Show planes now makes a 24
volt flap position kit variant nearly identical to the one Van's sells
for the RV-10. If you've already purchased a 12 volt FPS from Vans,
contact Brian (541-773-3344). He can swap control boxes for a nominal
fee.
Jeremy Harris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy's Abros mail" <randy(at)abros.com> |
| Subject: | Door check system |
Rob do you know if the system that Van's came up with is the same one that
is working with the AF2500 in 410RV? Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | FAB box service letter |
Just saw on the general RV-List that the service letter previously
written about the FAB (filtered air box?) has been updated this
October. Apparently it isn't working out as well as previously
thought. Everyone should read the bulletin at:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Fab-sb_05.pdf
For those like me who live in the frozen Tundra for the next few
months, doing this FAB Bypass is basically very good idea. Luckily
I actually had just planned to start my FAB construction over the
next week or two, so I quickly ordered my free kit today.
They have a couple of different kits depending on if you already
had the magnetic FAB bypass installed or not. More info
is in the service bulletin.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Darton Steve <sfdarton(at)yahoo.com> |
Any builders in the OKC area? I'm in town for an FAA
class till 11/2. I'm willing to help or I would just
like to stop by and meet another builder and see
another project.
Steve 40212 Wings
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
Steve,
N256H #40241 will be in Tulsa on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday next week. I
don't know what airport, but they are planning on going to Tulsa. I don't
think they need any help, but you could check it out and may be able to talk
Steve (Saint, that is) into giving you a ride if he is around and has time
(or if you need a lift to Florida). Let me know and I can find out more
details on where and when he will be there.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darton Steve
Subject: RV10-List: Builder in OKC?
Any builders in the OKC area? I'm in town for an FAA
class till 11/2. I'm willing to help or I would just
like to stop by and meet another builder and see
another project.
Steve 40212 Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil White" <philwhite9(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Plating steps question |
I want to have the steps for the -10 chrome plated to prevent rusting
and match the polished aluminum that they will be mounted on. The 4130
steel tubing comes with some sort of protective coating that gives it a
dark gray appearance.
Can anyone tell me what is the recommended method of removing
that coating? Polishing, or some chemical to dissolve it?
Phil #40220 in IL (fuse @ 60%, wings & emp done)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FAB box service letter |
I did wonder about that little magnet.... and what do you know, I had just
finished installing the bypass door.
Anh
#141
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: RV10-List: FAB box service letter
>
>
> Just saw on the general RV-List that the service letter previously
> written about the FAB (filtered air box?) has been updated this
> October. Apparently it isn't working out as well as previously
> thought. Everyone should read the bulletin at:
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Fab-sb_05.pdf
>
> For those like me who live in the frozen Tundra for the next few
> months, doing this FAB Bypass is basically very good idea. Luckily
> I actually had just planned to start my FAB construction over the
> next week or two, so I quickly ordered my free kit today.
>
> They have a couple of different kits depending on if you already
> had the magnetic FAB bypass installed or not. More info
> is in the service bulletin.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
Here is the picture David sent to me that shows the baffle material used for
his rivet technique.
John Jessen
40328 HS
_____
From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net]
Subject: draw bead
baffling material is a silicone rubber material commonly used for directing
airflow firewall forward. attached is a picture. I would send it to
matronics but I don't know how well it handles pictures. Note that one
handles only 40 rivets and the other was drilled for both 30 and 40 rivets.
place the bead on the rear of the rivet and then hold the bucking bar
against it. lightly set the rivet, remove the bead and set the rivet
properly. Note the size of the bead by the size of the hole in it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange |
Any Pictures of the offending sites?
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange
Tom, post to this list the individual at VAN's telling you that
stop-drilling corrects for using worn dies during the CNC manufacture.
Your kidding yourself if you buy off that the problem ends with a stop
drill.
This exact problem began in the kit #350 range and I can now conclude it
was not resolved by #475.
Quality parts should be a reasonable expectation on the 10. It has been
unfortunately too overlooked. Tom was the source of such direction back
near #350. Even the replacement part was cracked. Go Figure. Builders
in this series should know what to look for and request a correction.
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele
Subject: RV10-List: F-1010, F-1008R - Cracks in inner reinforce flange
While cleaning up the tailcone bulkheads, noticed a couple of small
cracks
in the F-1010 & F-1008R bulkheads in the inner stiffener flange that
appear
to have been caused while the parts were being pressed. The cracks are
very
small, probably only a few 1000ths thick and < 1/4" long so you really
need
to look closely, and are located in the top radius of the bulkheads.
I've kicked around replacing them, spoke to Vans who said not to worry
but
stop-drill the cracks if it gives me piece of mind. Probably will stop
drill
and put doubler on web (gross overkill but why not) but still undecided.
My question is has anyone else noticed this? If this is a common
occurrence,
then replacing the bulkhead won't accomplish anything and my decision is
easy.
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473 - Tailcone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
What is the advantage of RG400 over RG58 coax? Quite a cost difference. Is
there a enough difference in quality that would justify the cost of RG400/U?
Thanks
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net> |
short answer .... the RG58 is the cheapest and least conductive of available
Coax (that's why RG-6 is recommended for long runs of cable or sattelite TV
cable instead of RG-58).
The higher quality cable will resist interference and have less signal
degredation than the RG58.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Coax
>
> What is the advantage of RG400 over RG58 coax? Quite a cost difference.
> Is there a enough difference in quality that would justify the cost of
> RG400/U? Thanks
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
> Wings
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rob kermanj <rv10es(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Oregon Aero Seats |
I received my seats the other day from Oregon Aero and I am very
pleased with the quality. Perhaps I could have saved a little by
shopping around but they saved me time and headaches.
By sending Van's rear seat cushions to Oregon Aero, I saved a
little. My total cost including shipping was about $3250.
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)cox.net> |
RG-58 has slightly better RF characteristics as compared to RG-400 (less
attenuation per unit length), but RG-400 is far more mechanically durable
and in 1950-1960 vintage panels with a lot of stuff going on, the shielding
of RG-400 provided some interference avoidance benefits.
Bottom line - you would not be able to tell a practical difference in
application between the two - other than use where there the increase
durability of RG-400 has an advantage. A good example of this is in the
engine compartment. Klaus at LightSpeed changed to RG-400 coax awhile back
for the run from his electronic Ignition module to the engine mounted coils.
The advantage here is the better heat tolerance of RG-400 over RG-58 (RG-400
has a Teflon dielectric).
For the little bit needed for an RV-10, just get the RG-400 and not worry
about it.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (210 hrs), RV-10 on the wish list
Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Coax
short answer .... the RG58 is the cheapest and least conductive of available
Coax (that's why RG-6 is recommended for long runs of cable or sattelite TV
cable instead of RG-58).
The higher quality cable will resist interference and have less signal
degredation than the RG58.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Coax
>
> What is the advantage of RG400 over RG58 coax? Quite a cost difference.
> Is there a enough difference in quality that would justify the cost of
> RG400/U? Thanks
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
> Wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Oregon Aero Seats |
Was that $3,250 all for seats? Are they lined with gold? Actually, all
kidding aside, I would love to see some pictures. Are they leather? How
much was Van's foam for the rear seats?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rob kermanj
Subject: RV10-List: Oregon Aero Seats
I received my seats the other day from Oregon Aero and I am very
pleased with the quality. Perhaps I could have saved a little by
shopping around but they saved me time and headaches.
By sending Van's rear seat cushions to Oregon Aero, I saved a
little. My total cost including shipping was about $3250.
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
We had an avionics expert put together our radio stack and he also made up
our antenna cables. He is used to wiring up 206's, Caravans and King Airs
for IFR flight. He made everything with RG-58 except the Transponder cable,
which he made with RG-400. The main thing he said was that we should keep
the transponder cable away from the other cables as much and as far as
possible, which is why we put our transponder antenna on the bottom of the
tunnel near the fuel pump and the other antennas are on the bottom aft of
the luggage compartment, so the wires run down the right side of the plane
or out into the wings for our wingtip antennas.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Coax
RG-58 has slightly better RF characteristics as compared to RG-400 (less
attenuation per unit length), but RG-400 is far more mechanically durable
and in 1950-1960 vintage panels with a lot of stuff going on, the shielding
of RG-400 provided some interference avoidance benefits.
Bottom line - you would not be able to tell a practical difference in
application between the two - other than use where there the increase
durability of RG-400 has an advantage. A good example of this is in the
engine compartment. Klaus at LightSpeed changed to RG-400 coax awhile back
for the run from his electronic Ignition module to the engine mounted coils.
The advantage here is the better heat tolerance of RG-400 over RG-58 (RG-400
has a Teflon dielectric).
For the little bit needed for an RV-10, just get the RG-400 and not worry
about it.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (210 hrs), RV-10 on the wish list
Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Coax
short answer .... the RG58 is the cheapest and least conductive of available
Coax (that's why RG-6 is recommended for long runs of cable or sattelite TV
cable instead of RG-58).
The higher quality cable will resist interference and have less signal
degredation than the RG58.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Coax
>
> What is the advantage of RG400 over RG58 coax? Quite a cost difference.
> Is there a enough difference in quality that would justify the cost of
> RG400/U? Thanks
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
> Wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)core.com> |
Conductivity has nothing to do with it, they both have the same copper center conductor.
What you are paying for in the RG-400 is slightly better shielding
and much better environmental characteristics. It's kind of like plenum rated
cable in the Ethernet world, electrically they are the same, but the plenum cable
is 3 times as expensive due to different materials required so that when
it burns, it does not release any toxic vapors. For this reason I plan to use
RG-400 anywhere in the cabin and RG-58 in the wings and elswhere.
>
>short answer .... the RG58 is the cheapest and least conductive
>of available Coax (that's why RG-6 is recommended for long runs
>of cable or sattelite TV cable instead of RG-58).
>
>The higher quality cable will resist interference and have less
>signal degredation than the RG58.
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Lewis <Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: FAB box service letter |
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Fab-sb_05.pdf
Every time I read this document (or the predecessor) I am struck by the
following paragraph:
(a) It is imperative to remember that, unless the individual aircraft
operating limitations permit, experimental aircraft are not permitted to
fly into known icing conditions.
(b) Flight into forecast icing conditions is limited by the provisions
of FAR 91.527.
(c) Flight into icing conditions can be extremely dangerous since the
rate of ice accumulation in the induction system and on the airframe are
unpredictable and may change in seconds.
Sentence (c) is true, and very much worth noting and heeding.
So far as I know, sentence (a) is false. No such FAR applicable to our
aircraft exists, and the normal operating limitations issued to RV's
include no such prohibition.
Sentence (b), with regard to RVs, is false. FAR 91.527 is part of FAR
91 Subpart F, which is applicable only to "Large and Turbine-Powered
Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft." The
RV series of aircraft are not subject to FAR 91.527, or anything else
under FAR 91.5xx.
The intent of the paragraph in Van's service letter is good. The use of
two sentences that are false detracts, IMO, from the credibility and
impact of the letter.
(Yes, I brought this to Van's attention two years ago).
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rob kermanj <rv10es(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oregon Aero Seats |
The amount was for the leather upholstery of all seats. It included
around $175-185 for Van's rear seat foams. The leather is dyed
through so that it will not show a different color once it is worn
through the skin. The seats are still in plastic cover and not good
for photograph. I am won't be removing the plastic for a while.
Will post photos as soon as I do.
Rob.
Organ Aero charged $3120 for their work including shipping
On Oct 29, 2005, at 9:00 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Was that $3,250 all for seats? Are they lined with gold?
> Actually, all
> kidding aside, I would love to see some pictures. Are they
> leather? How
> much was Van's foam for the rear seats?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rob kermanj
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 6:08 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Oregon Aero Seats
>
>
> I received my seats the other day from Oregon Aero and I am very
> pleased with the quality. Perhaps I could have saved a little by
> shopping around but they saved me time and headaches.
>
> By sending Van's rear seat cushions to Oregon Aero, I saved a
> little. My total cost including shipping was about $3250.
>
> Rob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | L Aune <lcaune(at)cablelan.net> |
| Subject: | Cracks in flange |
I found the same cracks in two lightening hole flanges. They
suggested that I stop drill but my experience has been that a stop
drilled flange might continue to crack past the stop drill. A drill
bit of 1/8 at least is required but even this is no guarentee. I had
them send me a new one and it was fine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
I don't know much about this subject so my questions might even be off base.
How does a vapor return line need to be sized for a 540 with a carb or mechanical
fuel injection and where does the line enter into the tank. Is it just via
a bulkhead fitting like the vent bulkhead fitting? Does it enter on the bottom
or the top of the tank? I emailed ECI about their 540 system but it is not that
far along enought for them to comment on. Their 360 experimental engine will/does
have the option but I couldn't find practical details on the fuel system
just schematics.
TIA
Chris Lucas
#40072
fuel tanks ( I want to add a fitting now before I seal the tanks if I end up needing
it down the road)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Depends what fuel injection system you go with. Carbs don't need return
line. Neither does the certified Bendix RSA system that Lycoming puts on
their injected engines. Only Continental and some of the
aftermarket/experimental fuel injection systems need a return line.
There are exceptions, like some of the bigger Cessna singles had return
line perhaps to deal with vapor lock issues.
Chris said:
> I don't know much about this subject so my questions might even be off
> base.
> How does a vapor return line need to be sized for a 540 with a carb or
> mechanical fuel injection and where does the line enter into the tank. Is
> it just via a bulkhead fitting like the vent bulkhead fitting? Does it
> enter on the bottom or the top of the tank? I emailed ECI about their 540
> system but it is not that far along enought for them to comment on. Their
> 360 experimental engine will/does have the option but I couldn't find
> practical details on the fuel system just schematics.
> TIA
> Chris Lucas
> #40072
> fuel tanks ( I want to add a fitting now before I seal the tanks if I end
> up needing it down the road)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Hugo #40456,mine flanges have cracks too,allready send a email to Vans for replacments,thanks
to the group I was able to found before going to the specific task,I
guess save a couple of weeks in delay time.
Thanks ,Hugo
any news from bad rivets in the spars from Canada?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
By chance any body now the e mail or phone number of CHARLES BENNETT of Jupiter
FL
RV10 N410PB,he is only 30 minutes from me.
Hugo
do nort archive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
Hugo, Did you try the phone book? :)
He's listed:
Bennett, Charles P III
<http://www.whitepages.com/10001/search/Alpha_Limit?search_id=10300202835945905746&sort=&alpha_limit=&lower=3&more_info=1&old_search_type=Find_Person>
19001 SE Mack Dairy Rd
Jupiter, FL 33478-2119
(561) 748-2963
I looked up the N number in the FAA database and matched the addresses.
-Jim 40384, skinning the top wings today!
gommone7(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>By chance any body now the e mail or phone number of CHARLES BENNETT of Jupiter
FL
>RV10 N410PB,he is only 30 minutes from me.
>Hugo
>do nort archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
Only needed for fuel injected engines, and then some of them you can skip
adding the feature.
Run a flex hose from the engine purge valve (same type of hose used for
fuel) to a steel firewall bulkhead fitting. For Bendix installs where you
are adding the purge valve, you may decide to mount the purge valve on the
firewall. If so, then you just run a flex hose from the spider to the purge
valve. As with all engine flex hoses, it is a good idea to have them in
fire sleeve. From the aft side of the bulk head fitting, run 1/4" aluminum
tubing to whichever fuel tank that is easiest. Mount a standard AN aluminum
bulkhead fitting on the inboard end of the fuel tank, preferably high on the
tank. No need to run another tube inside the tank like you do with the vent
line as when the purge valve is open the pressure in the purge line is
higher than that in the tank.
I have the Airflow Performance fuel injection system on my RV-8A. It comes
with a purge valve mounted on the spider. I use the purge line to shut down
the engine, but I have never needed to use the purge system to vent the
spider (i.e. vapor locked startup).
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (200 hrs)
Dogwood Airpark (VA-42)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:02 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
I don't know much about this subject so my questions might even be off
base.
How does a vapor return line need to be sized for a 540 with a carb or
mechanical fuel injection and where does the line enter into the tank. Is it
just via a bulkhead fitting like the vent bulkhead fitting? Does it enter on
the bottom or the top of the tank? I emailed ECI about their 540 system but
it is not that far along enought for them to comment on. Their 360
experimental engine will/does have the option but I couldn't find practical
details on the fuel system just schematics.
TIA
Chris Lucas
#40072
fuel tanks ( I want to add a fitting now before I seal the tanks if I end
up needing it down the road)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Combs" <jimc(at)mail.infra-read.com> |
| Subject: | Handgrip to Instrument Panel Fit |
I have fitted the instrument panel to the fuselage skin and the handgrip is slightly
behind (forward) of the instrument panel at the forward portion of the grip.
I have a visible gap of about .063 behind the panel at the rear of the hand
grip. With the 0.63 thickness of the instrument panel, I end up with about
1/8" of hangover. I have checked behind the panel and the fit is tight. Both
sides are like this.
Does anyone else have a fit like this?
It's purely cosmetic, but would like to know if this is "normal".
Placing the handgrip about 1/4" more aft in the skin would fix the problem. But
it attached to the supports behind the instrument panel.
I don't think there is anything I can do to remidy this. (Fill the gap with some
JB weld or proseal and smooth it out is the current plan.)
Picture is attached.
Thanks, Jim Combs
#40192 - N312F
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wade <jwadejr(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oregon Aero Seats |
Rob, just got mine too! They did an excellent job. I have had 2 interiors
done in leather in the last 2 years, and they were not anywhere near as well
done as Oregon Aero. They offer many different options on color and seat
stitch and panel pattern. I did mine in light and dark grey. I too put mine
up, but will try in a few days to take a pick and post it.
Jim
383
-------Original Message-------
From: rob kermanj
Date: 10/29/05 11:27:03
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oregon Aero Seats
The amount was for the leather upholstery of all seats. It included
around $175-185 for Van's rear seat foams. The leather is dyed
through so that it will not show a different color once it is worn
through the skin. The seats are still in plastic cover and not good
for photograph. I am won't be removing the plastic for a while.
Will post photos as soon as I do.
Rob.
Organ Aero charged $3120 for their work including shipping
On Oct 29, 2005, at 9:00 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Was that $3,250 all for seats? Are they lined with gold?
> Actually, all
> kidding aside, I would love to see some pictures. Are they
> leather? How
> much was Van's foam for the rear seats?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rob kermanj
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 6:08 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Oregon Aero Seats
>
>
> I received my seats the other day from Oregon Aero and I am very
> pleased with the quality. Perhaps I could have saved a little by
> shopping around but they saved me time and headaches.
>
> By sending Van's rear seat cushions to Oregon Aero, I saved a
> little. My total cost including shipping was about $3250.
>
> Rob
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
Michael ...
Another option, an easier one, tie the purge line into the left or right tank
feeder line.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Environmental concerns aside, it seem a lot easier than trying to get another
bulkhead into a finished tank.
Michael Sausen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Final Drill before assembly |
A while ago a couple of you mentioned that you were final drilling,
deburing, dimpling and painting before assembling first, so the first time
of assembly you were riveting. How is this going? Any updates on potential
problems?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Hukill" <cjhukill(at)cox.net> |
I'm coming to the point where I need to provision for static ports in the tailcone,
and I am wondering if anyone whom is flying a 10 has SafeAir or Cleveland
flush static ports installed, and has determined the accuracy of them, as compared
to the pop-rivet? Or is there another after market port that allows for
the bulge past the skin, as in a pop-rivet, that I'm unaware of?
Thanks
Chris Hukill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "b.e.isham" <b.e.isham(at)cox.net> |
For those who may have missed the September special, PlaneTools.com now has
the DRDT-2 Dimpler as a FREE upgrade on the RV tool kit. This is a great
tool that reflects the quality of the RV tool kit. In addition to the sheet
metal tool kit, mechanic tools are being added. The website address is
HYPERLINK "http://www.planetools.com"http://www.planetools.com
<http://www.planetools.com> Shane Isham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
if you do this then you do not have a purge line rather a parallel feed
line, both lines will carry pressure, as the return line will have less
pressure in it, so it will be overcome by the feed
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Grimmonpre
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Michael ...
Another option, an easier one, tie the purge line into the left or
right tank feeder line.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel
injection
Environmental concerns aside, it seem a lot easier than trying
to get another bulkhead into a finished tank.
Michael Sausen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
When the engine is shutting down or purged, it has to be fed from the tank opposite
the one the purge line is connected to. The purge fuel, on shut down, will
go into the tank but opposite the normal flow direction. The flow,in the
purge line, would be whatever is being put out by the engine driven pump, with
engine running, or whatever the boost pump is putting out for purging, when the
engine is not running. Since the purge fuel is going into the unused tank
there is really no pressure ... just flow. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
if you do this then you do not have a purge line rather a parallel feed line,
both lines will carry pressure, as the return line will have less pressure in
it, so it will be overcome by the feed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: static ports |
Putting the ptiot-static system from Safeair1 in this week. Tony was great to
work with and knows what a RV10 needs. Safeair static port require a smaller
hole cut in the skin versus the one Cleavland sells. Safeair uses a different
tubing than normal...something to consider.
Putting the ptiot-static system from Safeair1 in this week. Tony was great to work
with and knows what a RV10 needs. Safeair static port require a smaller hole
cut in the skin versus the one Cleavland sells. Safeair uses a different tubing
than normal...something to consider.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Mount Clearance Update |
I got my engine mount back later last week and installed it. Van's did
pretty good job of fixing it up. The service on this repair/mod. was
fantastic, thanks to Bruce and Scott at Van's. The mount now has better
clearance, although I think if they made the new curved section about
1 to 1.5" wider, it would be even better to clear the corners of the
sump. It will absolutely be better than before though, as now there is
1/4" to 3/8" clearance, which is over double what I had before.
I have some photos at:
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/engine/20051022/index.html
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Patrick Thyssen <jump2(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Mount Clearance Update |
One thing after a few years the engine mounts, rubber isolators, will start to
sag, and so you will need to watch this for vibration rub on the mount. We see
this on all types of AC esp on C-182 with the front cowling and c-206's left
front.
Pat #257
Tim Olson wrote:
I got my engine mount back later last week and installed it. Van's did
pretty good job of fixing it up. The service on this repair/mod. was
fantastic, thanks to Bruce and Scott at Van's. The mount now has better
clearance, although I think if they made the new curved section about
1 to 1.5" wider, it would be even better to clear the corners of the
sump. It will absolutely be better than before though, as now there is
1/4" to 3/8" clearance, which is over double what I had before.
I have some photos at:
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/engine/20051022/index.html
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wade <jwadejr(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Drill before assembly |
On some jobs it works great. Sometimes you have to mostly assemble to get a
feel for fit and such. I find the fit is ultimately better drilled first and
put together, no hole slightly out of round. Predrilled and dimpled the
fuselage halfs and the tail cone. All went together perfectly. Also have
done the top wing skins that way.
Jim Wade
-------Original Message-------
From: Jesse Saint
Date: 10/30/05 18:56:26
Subject: RV10-List: Final Drill before assembly
A while ago a couple of you mentioned that you were final drilling, deburing
dimpling and painting before assembling first, so the first time of
assembly you were riveting. How is this going? Any updates on potential
problems?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Finished Painting |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> |
Beautiful job, Tim.
As for registering your homebuilt, I followed the recommendations from
the EAA's Homebuilders Headquarters when I finished my Pietenpol Air
Camper last year. Registration and inspection went off without a hitch.
You can find all the information you need on the EAA website, under
"Members Only", then select Homebuilders Headquarters, then select
"Registering" and "Articles".
I had an inspector from the local FSDO come out and inspect mine. He
spent several hours poking and prodding the airplane, before signing it
off. The only paperwork he was interested in looking at was the
registration (which you obviously already have since you've got your
numbers painted on), and the weight and balance calculations. The
inspection was free. It required about a 3 weeks notice to get the
inspection lined up, where a DAR could have done it on a couple of days
notice, but the DAR in our area wanted $500 to perform the inspection.
Jack Phillips,
Raleigh, NC
Pietenpol Air Camper NX899JP
RV-4 N18LR
RV-10 on the wish list (hope to start building next winter)
-----Original Message-----
...If anyone has a link to a good guide to getting your airworthiness
certificate, I'd love to start reading. I don't think I'm all that
far from needing to start getting paperwork together. I don't know
how early I can start the registration process, but now that my
N-Number is painted on, I feel much closer. ;)
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert E. Lynch" <rv6lynch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
Jerry, if you still want the exhaust I have , get in touch.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
I thought the original post was also concerning a return line for fuel
injection? and in this case it would not work, because if you fed back
to the opposite tank, you could overfill and send fuel out the vent. The
way to plumb for a return line is to the same tank you are feeding from,
to prevent overfilling, and in this situation you can not just plumb it
back into the feed line because of parallel paths for the fuel pump.
another question, in your scenario what keeps fuel from flowing into the
purge line during normal ops? if nothing, what keeps it from overfilling
the tank?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Grimmonpre
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
When the engine is shutting down or purged, it has to be fed from the
tank opposite the one the purge line is connected to. The purge fuel,
on shut down, will go into the tank but opposite the normal flow
direction. The flow,in the purge line, would be whatever is being put
out by the engine driven pump, with engine running, or whatever the
boost pump is putting out for purging, when the engine is not running.
Since the purge fuel is going into the unused tank there is really no
pressure ... just flow. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel
injection
if you do this then you do not have a purge line rather a
parallel feed line, both lines will carry pressure, as the return line
will have less pressure in it, so it will be overcome by the feed
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Canopy Dorr Trimming |
| From: | "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com> |
I'm currently at the stage of trimming the lip on the canopy for
the door opening. The plans don't state which direct the cut is suppose
to be. Along the bottom of the door lip, I trimmed it with the cut edge
facing the opposite door, but on the vertical lip of the door, you could
cut it facing the other door or you could cut it where the cur edge
faces the front of the plane. Can someone please explain which way this
is supposed to be cut? I can see the lines just fine, just need to know
which way the cut surface is suppose to be.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
When the purge valve is opened to cool the injection plumbing or to purge cavitating
bubbles, it requires very little fuel to accomplish the cooling. If the
purging time is extended it is possible to over fill the receiving tank and experience
a fuel loss out the venting system of the receiving tank.
When the purging is completed by closing the purge valve, the purge plumbing path
to the receiving tank is closed at the purge valve as well. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
From: Lloyd, Daniel R.
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
I thought the original post was also concerning a return line for fuel injection?
and in this case it would not work, because if you fed back to the opposite
tank, you could overfill and send fuel out the vent. The way to plumb for a
return line is to the same tank you are feeding from, to prevent overfilling,
and in this situation you can not just plumb it back into the feed line because
of parallel paths for the fuel pump.
another question, in your scenario what keeps fuel from flowing into the purge
line during normal ops? if nothing, what keeps it from overfilling the tank?
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Grimmonpre
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
When the engine is shutting down or purged, it has to be fed from the tank opposite
the one the purge line is connected to. The purge fuel, on shut down,
will go into the tank but opposite the normal flow direction. The flow,in the
purge line, would be whatever is being put out by the engine driven pump, with
engine running, or whatever the boost pump is putting out for purging, when
the engine is not running. Since the purge fuel is going into the unused tank
there is really no pressure ... just flow. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
if you do this then you do not have a purge line rather a parallel feed line,
both lines will carry pressure, as the return line will have less pressure
in it, so it will be overcome by the feed
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
back to the tank?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Grimmonpre
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
When the purge valve is opened to cool the injection plumbing or to
purge cavitating bubbles, it requires very little fuel to accomplish the
cooling. If the purging time is extended it is possible to over fill
the receiving tank and experience a fuel loss out the venting system of
the receiving tank.
When the purging is completed by closing the purge valve, the purge
plumbing path to the receiving tank is closed at the purge valve as
well. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
From: Lloyd, Daniel R. <mailto:LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel
injection
I thought the original post was also concerning a return line
for fuel injection? and in this case it would not work, because if you
fed back to the opposite tank, you could overfill and send fuel out the
vent. The way to plumb for a return line is to the same tank you are
feeding from, to prevent overfilling, and in this situation you can not
just plumb it back into the feed line because of parallel paths for the
fuel pump.
another question, in your scenario what keeps fuel from flowing
into the purge line during normal ops? if nothing, what keeps it from
overfilling the tank?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Grimmonpre
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel
injection
=09
=09
When the engine is shutting down or purged, it has to be fed
from the tank opposite the one the purge line is connected to. The
purge fuel, on shut down, will go into the tank but opposite the normal
flow direction. The flow,in the purge line, would be whatever is being
put out by the engine driven pump, with engine running, or whatever the
boost pump is putting out for purging, when the engine is not running.
Since the purge fuel is going into the unused tank there is really no
pressure ... just flow. Hope this helps.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel
injection
if you do this then you do not have a purge line rather
a parallel feed line, both lines will carry pressure, as the return line
will have less pressure in it, so it will be overcome by the feed
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
> It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
> That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
> standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto, where
> there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing a
> return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
> used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
> portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
> back to the tank?
>
> _____
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning 6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
> It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
> That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
> standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto, where
> there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing a
> return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
> used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
> portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
> back to the tank?
>
> _____
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning 6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
> It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
> That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
> standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto, where
> there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing a
> return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
> used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
> portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
> back to the tank?
>
> _____
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy Dorr Trimming |
This is very hard to explain....and I can tell from your description
that it's hard to interpret too. You're right, there isn't much
guidance on that cut.
What you kind of want is this: When you close the door, picture the
cut face laying against the door itself. So in all cases almost, the
angle of the plane you cut in, will match the angle of the inner
surface of the door. On the bottom, I found myself cutting more
than that, which was unnecessary.
Now, here's the kicker.... Be careful about painting your interior
at this point, because you'll probably file and sand that edge later
again. Once you get the doors all in place, opening and closing,
you'll want them to close and come very close to those edges. In
fact, mine fit pretty good all the way around...I used a piece of paper
between the door and the frame to make sure I had enough gap to
slide the paper or thin steel ruler. But, then I added the fabric
covering to my doors, so I ended up filing and sanding even more of the
edge away so that the door would shut. You probably won't hurt
anything by overdoing it in the end, as the rubber seal would be
the sealing surface anyway, but it would help keep your outer
door surface flush (in addition to the beveled edge).
These are some older pics, but I don't have any recent ones
that I can find.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050702/RV200506230001.html
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050702/RV200506240007.html
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/finishing/20050827/RV200508270062.html
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:
>
> I'm currently at the stage of trimming the lip on the canopy for
> the door opening. The plans don't state which direct the cut is suppose
> to be. Along the bottom of the door lip, I trimmed it with the cut edge
> facing the opposite door, but on the vertical lip of the door, you could
> cut it facing the other door or you could cut it where the cur edge
> faces the front of the plane. Can someone please explain which way this
> is supposed to be cut? I can see the lines just fine, just need to know
> which way the cut surface is suppose to be.
>
> Thank You
> Ray Doerr
> 40250
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
Jesse,
The main issue here is for vapor lock instances during a start from a heat soaked
engine where the injector lines run on top of the engine and fuel is supplied
by a engine driven pump or the pump being in the cowl. This is a common
problem for that type of setup in warm or hot climates and is usually caused by
fuel pump cavitation due to the fuel temperature being raised above it's vapor
pressure threshold.
It's most commonly seen when you fly somewhere hot, get fuel, and then try a
restart shortly after. Usually requires a 30 minutes sit with the oil door open
to allow the fuel to condense again. Shouldn't be as much of a problem with
our fuel pumps being back in the fuselage but it could still happen. In our
case it would allow fuel to be circulated, cooling the lines back down and purging
the fuel vapor out for easier start in this condition.
If you aren't seeing a problem, no reason to worry about it, this is strictly
an engine start event. There is a good chance none of us would really see this
problem with the design of our fuel system having the fuel pump in the fuselage.
The most that would probably happen is a rough start until the lines clear.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Waiting on fuselage
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint |
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We haven't
put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just runs out the back
of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel that it is using
or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning 6.5-7gph @ 17,500, I can't imagine
that we are actually burning less than that and wasting a significant amount.
Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would this system not work the same
way whether you have a return line or an overflow drain line? Running the boost
pump is going to do the same thing any, right. I am not much of an engine
guy, so please let me know where I am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup
issue, or are we needing to worry about this while we are flying? We certainly
haven't had any issues with the system during our 150 hours in the air,
but if it is an accident waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours
we have flown the wrong way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a common
rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual injectors.
Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only fuel needed goes to
the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self limiting, returning excess
pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know what aftermarket
systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto systems.
Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use individual timed injection
for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are pressure controled,
so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no fuel goes to the injectors,
allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
> It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
> That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
> standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto,
> where there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing
> a return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
> used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
> portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
> back to the tank?
>
> _____
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Lauritsen - Work" <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com> |
| Subject: | New RV-10 Seat Page |
Well we finally have an info page up for our RV-10 seats. Please spread it
around to the other RV-10 related lists.
Make sure to scroll down and see the installed interior.
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/rvinteriors/2005/RV10.htm
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Lauritsen
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
2225 First St.
Boone, Iowa 50036
515-432-6794
mike(at)cleavelandtool.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New RV-10 Seat Page |
| From: | "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes(at)qnsi.net> |
Mike,
Looks great. Any idea when you will have more pictures and prices for
the interior panels?
Bobby Hughes
40116
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Lauritsen - Work
Subject: RV10-List: New RV-10 Seat Page
Well we finally have an info page up for our RV-10 seats. Please spread
it around to the other RV-10 related lists.
Make sure to scroll down and see the installed interior.
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/rvinteriors/2005/RV10.htm
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Lauritsen
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
2225 First St.
Boone, Iowa 50036
515-432-6794
mike(at)cleavelandtool.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Finished Painting |
All "DNA's" removed .... going into the archives...
>
> Well, initially I drew it on the PC. It was pretty easy to make and
> adjust the muliple section curves that way. So, I had all 4 views
> (Top, Side, Front, Isometric) on a printout in front of me for masking
> it off. Then, I ran the tape as smooth as possible by hand, trying
> to estimate at which points on the airframe the lines crossed. It
> was then just a matter of trial and error to get something that looked
> real nice, since the original scheme wasn't really in 3D. After
> we thought we had it, we tried to duplicate it on the other sides.
> For the wing outer ends, I did actually tape one off and make a
> paper template to transfer it to the bottom and other wing.
>
> Now, as for the durability, I think the basecoat/clearcoat will be
> very durable. It's top quality auto paint. Even this a.m. after
> spraying last night, it feels like it'll be nice and hard. I basically
> used PPG because Randy had good luck with it, and it was available
> at the most common local paint store. I think Imron would be a
> fine choice too. The only negative I'd heard was that it doesn't/didn't
> fill around the rivets as well.
>
> Through a chain of friends, a DuPont rep ended up looking at my website.
> They have a newer aviation paint that they would have loved to have me
> try...at a discount...and it supposedly fixes the rivet filling problem.
> But, since I had sprayed the PPG already, I thought it best to color
> coat it with something from the same paint line.
>
> I'll be helping another builder paint an RV-4 later this year and it
> might be that we try the DuPont stuff on that project. As that
> comes together, I'll make sure to let everyone know how that compares
> if we spray it. I am very happy with the stuff that we sprayed though.
> It seems to be very good paint. Hopefully though, the Concept will
> be pretty chip resistant. I dinged a couple small nicks already, but
> that was before it got a real good cure. The base/clear though seems
> to be extremely tough for sure.
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>
>
> Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>>
>>Tim,
>>
>>Did you just tape all of those lines by hand or did you have some sort of
>>form? LOOKS AWESOME! What's the durability of the basecoat clearcoat PPG
>>stuff compared to something like Imron, which doesn't seem to be a big
>>choice in this group. PPG seems to be what everybody is using.
>>
>>Jesse Saint
>>I-TEC, Inc.
>>jesse(at)itecusa.org
>>www.itecusa.org
>>W: 352-465-4545
>>C: 352-427-0285
>>F: 815-377-3694
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Sort of on the topic - has anyone heard anything new about a fadec for
the 540? Fadec.com hasn't changed in awhile, but I figured they'd want
to tap the 540 market.
ci
#40410
wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | Tim's comments about painting |
Jesse wanted this saved for the archives, and I agree. You words are now
forever more, Tim.
Tim wrote:
Well, initially I drew it on the PC. It was pretty easy to make and adjust
the muliple section curves that way. So, I had all 4 views (Top, Side,
Front, Isometric) on a printout in front of me for masking it off. Then, I
ran the tape as smooth as possible by hand, trying to estimate at which
points on the airframe the lines crossed. It was then just a matter of
trial and error to get something that looked real nice, since the original
scheme wasn't really in 3D. After we thought we had it, we tried to
duplicate it on the other sides.
For the wing outer ends, I did actually tape one off and make a paper
template to transfer it to the bottom and other wing.
Now, as for the durability, I think the basecoat/clearcoat will be very
durable. It's top quality auto paint. Even this a.m. after spraying last
night, it feels like it'll be nice and hard. I basically used PPG because
Randy had good luck with it, and it was available at the most common local
paint store. I think Imron would be a fine choice too. The only negative
I'd heard was that it doesn't/didn't fill around the rivets as well.
Through a chain of friends, a DuPont rep ended up looking at my website.
They have a newer aviation paint that they would have loved to have me
try...at a discount...and it supposedly fixes the rivet filling problem.
But, since I had sprayed the PPG already, I thought it best to color coat it
with something from the same paint line.
I'll be helping another builder paint an RV-4 later this year and it might
be that we try the DuPont stuff on that project. As that comes together,
I'll make sure to let everyone know how that compares if we spray it. I am
very happy with the stuff that we sprayed though.
It seems to be very good paint. Hopefully though, the Concept will be
pretty chip resistant. I dinged a couple small nicks already, but that was
before it got a real good cure. The base/clear though seems to be extremely
tough for sure.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com> |
Is it possible to purchase the mounting bracket for the roll servo seperate
from the AP? I've asked TruTrak directly but thought I might get a faster
response here. I'm undecided as to which of their two servo APs to use but
as I understand it they all use the same bracket, depending on which side
you place the servo of course. Would like to close the wings up and move on
without committing to avionics just yet.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tim's comments about painting |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tim's comments about painting
>
> Or, on the flip side of that question....I wonder how much longer it
> would have taken to build the RV-10 if people didn't have the
> information and tips available on the list.... ;)
>
> I for one, think I would have not nearly enjoyed this construction
> as much if I had to suffer like the RV3,4,6 builders, with their plans,
> and I can't imagine building one in a day and age where you had
> to actually take Kodak photogaphs and mail the pictures to
> someone if you had a question that needed visualization.
Well said Tim. I built and have been enjoying an RV4 for almost 10 years
now. I always tell people the best thing about the 10 is the plans and the
fact that all the sequence questions have been answered. A close second is
the precision of all the matched hole tooling. Doing a 10 "the old way"
would be close to impossible. It would be extremely difficult to bend up
parts that would then fit between other bent up parts. I am always amazed
when these parts fit together so well.
Your enthusiasm almost matches that of our departed Mr. McClow and I am sure
is a great motivator to many on the list as is all of the helpful advice.
Trust me, you will enjoy flying your airplane even more than building. Any
RV always draws interested airport bums.
For me, the only drawback will giving up aerobatics and the fun of flying
the A4 of the RVs. In trade, we are looking forward to a capable WAAS
equipped IFR traveler that will accommodate the family and dog.
Dick Sipp
RV4 N250DS
RV10 40065 N110DV
Do not archieve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "brian bollaert" <bbollaert(at)comcast.net> |
Ditto on the last comments re: the -10 list :
It is a university indeed , & the camaraderie that it entails is interesting also
, Tim and all the others that have the web sites (thanks much) .
i have contributed (a bit i think )
Brian Bollaert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
The Ice water tubing I have seen will definitely get BRITTLE after 5 years and
break under small vibration. Would hate to rerun pitot tubing every 3 years to
keep it flexible.
The Ice water tubing I have seen will definitely get BRITTLE after 5 years and
break under small vibration. Would hate to rerun pitot tubing every 3 years to
keep it flexible.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Lewis <Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu> |
> Is it possible to purchase the mounting bracket for the roll servo
> seperate from the AP?
Yes. That's what I did. $50 for the mount, as I recall. Includes
connectors.
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 790 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Forget the connectors as supplied by TT. get the standard dsubs and barrel
pins/sockets. soldering the cups is not the way to go especially if you have
to switch pins due to servo rotation
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Lewis" <Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TruTrak AP
>
> > Is it possible to purchase the mounting bracket for the roll servo
> > seperate from the AP?
>
> Yes. That's what I did. $50 for the mount, as I recall. Includes
> connectors.
>
> Tim
> --
> Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
> RV-6A N47TD -- 790 hrs
> RV-10 #40059 under construction
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks
and placards I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a
nameplate, and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under
the HS on -10's. Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Lewis <Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Placards/Nameplate |
Per FAR 45.13 "Identification data" all that is required on the
(fireproof) data plate is (1) Builder's name, (2) Model designation, and
(3) Builder's serial number.
For my RV-6A I got one of those stainless steel data plates from ACS,
cut it down in size, and used the back side. Engravers charge by the
letter, so I included only the information actually required by
regulation. I didn't include the gross weight number (or other
non-required numbers) because the FAA could conceivably use them against
the operator in an enforcement matter.
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 790 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks
> and placards I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a
> nameplate, and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
>
> I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under
> the HS on -10's. Where would the nameplate go?
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Placards/Nameplate |
Tim:
A better option to the aircraft spruce data plate is:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1130844505-434-267&browse=personal&product=vaf
Item number VAF EXPER DATA PLATE
Why do with a generic data plate when you can go with a Vans Air Force Date
Plate instead.
Loved your painting pictures and can't wait to see both you and your 10 at
OSK next year. Hopefully my 10 will be finished and present as well.
Russ Daves
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
>
> I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks
> and placards I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a
> nameplate, and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
>
> I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under
> the HS on -10's. Where would the nameplate go?
>
> Tim
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mani Ravee" <maniravee(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Frappr Map for the list |
Guys, Here is a Frappr map for north america. Add yourselves to it, both
builders and finished ones.
http://www.frappr.com/rv10snorthamerica
Mani
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Frappr Map for the list |
Cool map, I like it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RV10-List: Frappr Map for the list
Guys, Here is a Frappr map for north america. Add yourselves to it, both
builders and finished ones.
http://www.frappr.com/rv10snorthamerica
Mani
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mani Ravee" <maniravee(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Frappr Map for the list |
Did not know, but it could be from anywhere in the world. Google, you gotta
love it.
Mani Ravee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RV10-List: Frappr Map for the list
Guys, Here is a Frappr map for north america. Add yourselves to it, both
builders and finished ones.
http://www.frappr.com/rv10snorthamerica
Mani
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
John,
We put the bracket, servo and wiring in all after the wing was finished (we
used the wiring harness that Stein makes for TruTrak). In fact, unless you
are going to make a disconnect at the wing root, then you don't want the
wiring in yet. I wouldn't hurt to put the bracket or even the servo in now,
but if you still haven't made some decisions like what you are doing for
aileron trim and what AP you are using, you might just want to wait until
you are ordering the instruments and put the whole thing in then. It may be
a little more work, but it won't be hard. It actually may end up being
cheaper to buy the whole AP kit at once, and you never know what options may
be on the market when you get to that point.
As far as which AP to use, it is my understanding that the Digiflight II VSG
is the most popular AP on the experimental market.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: TruTrak AP
Is it possible to purchase the mounting bracket for the roll servo seperate
from the AP? I've asked TruTrak directly but thought I might get a faster
response here. I'm undecided as to which of their two servo APs to use but
as I understand it they all use the same bracket, depending on which side
you place the servo of course. Would like to close the wings up and move on
without committing to avionics just yet.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
Spruce has an anodized aluminum data plate for experimentals, but that
doesn't seem to me to meet the fire-resistant need. When I called Spruce
and ordered a stainless steel data plate with my information on it, they
sent me the aluminum one. We put it on and when the inspector asked if it
was steel, I just had to tell him that I ordered SS. He was happy with
that, although I don't think is was SS. Why would Spruce sell one that is
made of aluminum when you need steel? Anyway, just beware of this. It does
look really good and the etching is great, but I wish it was SS.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks
and placards I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a
nameplate, and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under
the HS on -10's. Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
SPAM: If the email is for spam, please report to abuse(at)dnsExit.com
-By mail relay service at:
http://www.dnsExit.com/Direct.sv?cmd=mailRelay
Accounts will be suspended immediately if found spamming.
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Tim,
Here is a checklist that a local DAR uses as published by EAA Chapter 670. Might
come in handy.
http://www.aerovents.com/eaa670/eaabldrcklst.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks and placards
I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a nameplate,
and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under the HS on -10's.
Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bruce breckenridge <bbreckenridge(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Frappr Map for the list |
Mani;
Excellent find! Can't believe how fast it's building!
Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mani Ravee <maniravee(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Frappr Map for the list |
Tim, maybe you can put a link in your site. I would say it will look awful crowded
with >400 flags on it.
Mani
bruce breckenridge wrote:
Mani;
Excellent find! Can't believe how fast it's building!
Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Frappr Map for the list |
That is building fast. I think we want as many people on there as possible.
I agree that it will be difficult to see all of them on the big map, but you
can use the zoom controls on the left side of the map to zoom in on an area.
This will allow anybody to see how many builders there are along their route
of travel or at their destination when traveling, which may promote some
more face to face interaction in the group. It would be great if there
could be some contact information too, but that can be found other places, I
guess.
Google does it again.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RV10-List: Frappr Map for the list
Guys, Here is a Frappr map for north america. Add yourselves to it, both
builders and finished ones.
http://www.frappr.com/rv10snorthamerica
Mani
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com> |
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to
vapor lock. It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing
out at about 1000 fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was
passing through 5000ft I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its
normal 19 to 21 psi to around 17.5. I turned on the fuel pump and the
pressure went to 28 psi. I lowered the nose and left the fuel pump on
for 5 min or so. Lowering the nose did the trick. Turned the fuel pump
off and the pressures were fine. I have a 1" scat tube running to the
fuel pump to cool it. Remember that with the heater controls turned off
that the unused heated air is dumped right around the fuel pump. I have
had no issues starting the engine when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is
to leave the mix full lean and start cranking. After 5 revs or so if it
isn't running already start bleeding in some fuel with the mix. Starts
every time. 102 hours and counting. I am working on my IFR ticket for
the next few months. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live.
The pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he
did everything right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following a
loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported
he had landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to
loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot stated the
airplane contained 35 gallons of fuel prior to the accident flight. The
pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check
and the engine "felt fine." The airplane experienced a loss of engine
power while on the second takeoff attempt. The pilot stated he
maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road and it impacted a road
sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire engulfed the airplane
shortly thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during
a post-accident operational test. The outside temperature at the time of
the accident was approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A condition known as
vapor lock can occur when engine heats the fuel lines and the contained
fuel becomes a vapor. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank
is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. The fuel
vapor can result in partial or complete interruption of fuel flow to the
engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact
ground fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced
landing near Plymouth, Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of
engine power while on initial climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75
feet, dry asphalt) at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal Airport (1DS). Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The
personal flight was operating under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91
without a flight plan. The pilot and one passenger were not injured. One
passenger reported minor injuries. The local area flight was originating
at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a
few minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The
pilot stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation
fuel prior to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he
aborted the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up
check and the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto
runway 18 and set the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of
manifold pressure. The pilot stated the airplane became airborne and
experienced a loss of engine power while on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power
lines as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot
reported the airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and
an on-ground fire engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and
mounted on a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The
engine started and idled without anomalies. The engine was then
accelerated to 2,200 rpm which yielded approximately 80 lbs of oil
pressure. The engine was then shut-off using the mixture idle cut-off.
There were no anomalies noted with the engine during the operational
test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located
at the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical
miles (nm) southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with
an Automated Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather
conditions were reported prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl),
temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter
setting 29.90 inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a
liquid state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into
a vapor. Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines,
pumps, or other fuel components. The vapor pockets formed by the
premature vaporization can restrict the fuel flow through units that
were designed to handle liquids rather than gases. The resulting partial
or complete interruption of the fuel flow is called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in
the lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the
tank is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures.
Vapor lock can become serious enough to block the fuel flow completely
and stop the engine. Even small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can
restrict the fuel flow to the engine driven pump and ultimately reduce
its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow
restriction caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the
high atmospheric temperature and the road sign that the airplane
impacted during the forced landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just
runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning
6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same
thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where
I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing
to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any
issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an
accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the
wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only
fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know
what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use
individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no
fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and
closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine,
just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an
auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing
a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is
required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only
the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest
sent
back to the tank?
_____
to
and
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Kelly" <eyedocs1(at)swbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
I was in a Cirrus SR22 for a while here in Dallas, and anytime the temp gets above
95 degrees, SOP was to leave the fuel pump on throughout the climb and also
on descent. I had a couple of attention getting episodes doing IFR practice
approaches with an instructor that said that it was dangerous to leave the fuel
pump on continuously, that were resolved when the fuel pump was turned on.
One one occassion, the engine went silent doing a procedure turn, but came back
to life when the fuel pump was switched on. Do any of you see any problem
with just leaving the pump on when it's hot in the 10?
Thanks,
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy DeBauw
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to vapor lock.
It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing out at about 1000
fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was passing through 5000ft
I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its normal 19 to 21 psi to around 17.5.
I turned on the fuel pump and the pressure went to 28 psi. I lowered the
nose and left the fuel pump on for 5 min or so. Lowering the nose did the trick.
Turned the fuel pump off and the pressures were fine. I have a 1" scat tube
running to the fuel pump to cool it. Remember that with the heater controls
turned off that the unused heated air is dumped right around the fuel pump.
I have had no issues starting the engine when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is
to leave the mix full lean and start cranking. After 5 revs or so if it isn't
running already start bleeding in some fuel with the mix. Starts every time.
102 hours and counting. I am working on my IFR ticket for the next few months.
Randy
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:01 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live. The
pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he did everything
right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following
a loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported he had
landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to loading his two passengers
for a local flight. The pilot stated the airplane contained 35 gallons
of fuel prior to the accident flight. The pilot reported the engine "shuddered"
during takeoff roll and he aborted the takeoff. The pilot stated he then
performed an engine run-up check and the engine "felt fine." The airplane experienced
a loss of engine power while on the second takeoff attempt. The pilot
stated he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road and it impacted a road
sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire engulfed the airplane shortly
thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during a post-accident
operational test. The outside temperature at the time of the accident was
approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A condition known as vapor lock can occur
when engine heats the fuel lines and the contained fuel becomes a vapor. This
tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank is warm, commonly as a result of
high atmospheric temperatures. The fuel vapor can result in partial or complete
interruption of fuel flow to the engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact ground
fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing near Plymouth,
Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of engine power while on initial
climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75 feet, dry asphalt) at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal
Airport (1DS). Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the
time of the accident. The personal flight was operating under the provisions
of 14 CFR Part 91 without a flight plan. The pilot and one passenger were not
injured. One passenger reported minor injuries. The local area flight was originating
at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a
few minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot
stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation fuel prior
to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check and
the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto runway 18 and set
the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of manifold pressure. The pilot stated
the airplane became airborne and experienced a loss of engine power while
on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power lines
as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot reported the
airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and an on-ground fire engulfed
the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and mounted on
a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The engine started and
idled without anomalies. The engine was then accelerated to 2,200 rpm which yielded
approximately 80 lbs of oil pressure. The engine was then shut-off using
the mixture idle cut-off. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during
the operational test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located
at the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical miles (nm)
southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with an Automated
Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather conditions were reported
prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl), temperature
28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter setting 29.90
inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a liquid
state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into a vapor.
Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines, pumps, or other fuel
components. The vapor pockets formed by the premature vaporization can restrict
the fuel flow through units that were designed to handle liquids rather
than gases. The resulting partial or complete interruption of the fuel flow is
called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in
the lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank is
warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. Vapor lock can become
serious enough to block the fuel flow completely and stop the engine. Even
small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can restrict the fuel flow to the
engine driven pump and ultimately reduce its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow restriction
caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the high atmospheric
temperature and the road sign that the airplane impacted during the forced landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Thanks for the information. Can you share what some of the features of the
Eci system are, and why they are advantagous over the Bendix system?
James Ball said:
>
> This whole discussion started with an inquiry about the ECi mechanical
> fuel injection system for Lycoming engines. It is something like the
> Continental design since it has a vane type of fuel pump as opposed to
> the diaphragm Lycoming type and it requires a vapor return line. It has
> a number or advantages over the Bendix type of fuel injection. ECi is
> testing this system and it will be available sometime early next year.
> For more information check out
>
> eci2fly.com.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Jim Ball
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
Randy,
Please explain why when the heat controls are turned off the unused heat
is dumped around the fuel pump
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
________________________________
| From: | Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy(at)abros.com] |
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to
vapor lock. It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing
out at about 1000 fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was
passing through 5000ft I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its
normal 19 to 21 psi to around 17.5. I turned on the fuel pump and the
pressure went to 28 psi. I lowered the nose and left the fuel pump on
for 5 min or so. Lowering the nose did the trick. Turned the fuel pump
off and the pressures were fine. I have a 1" scat tube running to the
fuel pump to cool it. Remember that with the heater controls turned off
that the unused heated air is dumped right around the fuel pump. I have
had no issues starting the engine when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is
to leave the mix full lean and start cranking. After 5 revs or so if it
isn't running already start bleeding in some fuel with the mix. Starts
every time. 102 hours and counting. I am working on my IFR ticket for
the next few months. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live.
The pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he
did everything right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following a
loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported
he had landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to
loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot stated the
airplane contained 35 gallons of fuel prior to the accident flight. The
pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check
and the engine "felt fine." The airplane experienced a loss of engine
power while on the second takeoff attempt. The pilot stated he
maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road and it impacted a road
sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire engulfed the airplane
shortly thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during
a post-accident operational test. The outside temperature at the time of
the accident was approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A condition known as
vapor lock can occur when engine heats the fuel lines and the contained
fuel becomes a vapor. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank
is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. The fuel
vapor can result in partial or complete interruption of fuel flow to the
engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact
ground fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced
landing near Plymouth, Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of
engine power while on initial climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75
feet, dry asphalt) at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal Airport (1DS). Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The
personal flight was operating under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91
without a flight plan. The pilot and one passenger were not injured. One
passenger reported minor injuries. The local area flight was originating
at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a
few minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The
pilot stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation
fuel prior to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he
aborted the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up
check and the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto
runway 18 and set the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of
manifold pressure. The pilot stated the airplane became airborne and
experienced a loss of engine power while on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power
lines as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot
reported the airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and
an on-ground fire engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and
mounted on a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The
engine started and idled without anomalies. The engine was then
accelerated to 2,200 rpm which yielded approximately 80 lbs of oil
pressure. The engine was then shut-off using the mixture idle cut-off.
There were no anomalies noted with the engine during the operational
test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located
at the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical
miles (nm) southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with
an Automated Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather
conditions were reported prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl),
temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter
setting 29.90 inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a
liquid state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into
a vapor. Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines,
pumps, or other fuel components. The vapor pockets formed by the
premature vaporization can restrict the fuel flow through units that
were designed to handle liquids rather than gases. The resulting partial
or complete interruption of the fuel flow is called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in
the lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the
tank is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures.
Vapor lock can become serious enough to block the fuel flow completely
and stop the engine. Even small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can
restrict the fuel flow to the engine driven pump and ultimately reduce
its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow
restriction caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the
high atmospheric temperature and the road sign that the airplane
impacted during the forced landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just
runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning
6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same
thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where
I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing
to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any
issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an
accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the
wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only
fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know
what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use
individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no
fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and
closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine,
just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an
auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing
a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is
required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only
the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest
sent
back to the tank?
_____
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "James Ball" <jball(at)eci2fly.com> |
Reliability and lighter weight are the primary advantages.
The mechanical type design is quite a bit older than the servo design
and has a long track record of success. In the mechanical design, fuel
flow is controlled by precision machined cams and orifices which are
very stable once they are set. The servo systems are subject to
variations due to changes in elasticity and/or the pressure of some very
delicate springs in the regulator section. With the mechanical system,
there are no sensors, solenoids, or black boxes to fail or require
backup.
That's it in a nutshell.
J.B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Thanks for the information. Can you share what some of the features of
the Eci system are, and why they are advantagous over the Bendix system?
James Ball said:
>
> This whole discussion started with an inquiry about the ECi mechanical
> fuel injection system for Lycoming engines. It is something like the
> Continental design since it has a vane type of fuel pump as opposed to
> the diaphragm Lycoming type and it requires a vapor return line. It
> has a number or advantages over the Bendix type of fuel injection. ECi
> is testing this system and it will be available sometime early next
year.
> For more information check out
>
> eci2fly.com.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Jim Ball
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Drury" <mark(at)skytrans.com.au> |
| Subject: | For the new starters |
A lot of people are a long way into the project and there's a lot of talk about
painting and engines etc which is years away for those just starting,so, for
those who have just started I'll share a few things I've learned so far (I know
you can look up the archive but who cares).
Learning to rivet: it scares the crap out of all of us to begin with but here are
a few tricks I've learned. I have the advantage of working for a GA airline
and have access to LAME's and engineers etc and most of these tricks they gave
me.
1. When riveting flush rivets (AN426), run a line of masking tape either side of
the line of holes (on the gun side) and you'll find that the gun doesn't wander
around anywhere near as much.
2. When riveting AN470 rivets put a piece of masking tape over the machined head
of the rivet. You will very rarely miss another one or get another smiley.
3. When driving 3/32nd rivets use about 35-40PSI. The longer the rivet attachment
the slightly higher the pressure.
4. When driving 1/8th rivets use about 65-70PSI. Again, when you need to use a
longer rivet attachment increase the pressure slightly.
5. Try as best you can to drive the rivet in one go rather than multiple goes.
Hold the rivet gun and bucking bar as square to the rivet as possible and just
let the bucking bar do the work. If your pressures are right you'll see the head
forming before your eyes and it will feel right. There's no other way to describe
it.
6. Just have a go! By the time you get half way through the HS you'll wonder what
all the fuss was about. Then again, when you get near the end of the elevators
where you're expected to get your large hands into ridiculously awkward positions
to drive a rivet you'll feel the frustration creeping back.
Mark Drury
40436 (just finishing elevators)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
He must mean the fuel pump mounted on the engine. That is where the heated
air is dumped when the cabin heat is turned off. It goes right into the
engine compartment below the mags and right by the fuel pump.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Randy,
Please explain why when the heat controls are turned off the unused heat is
dumped around the fuel pump
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
_____
From: Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy(at)abros.com]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to vapor
lock. It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing out at
about 1000 fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was passing
through 5000ft I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its normal 19 to 21
psi to around 17.5. I turned on the fuel pump and the pressure went to 28
psi. I lowered the nose and left the fuel pump on for 5 min or so. Lowering
the nose did the trick. Turned the fuel pump off and the pressures were
fine. I have a 1" scat tube running to the fuel pump to cool it. Remember
that with the heater controls turned off that the unused heated air is
dumped right around the fuel pump. I have had no issues starting the engine
when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is to leave the mix full lean and start
cranking. After 5 revs or so if it isn't running already start bleeding in
some fuel with the mix. Starts every time. 102 hours and counting. I am
working on my IFR ticket for the next few months. Randy
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live. The
pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he did
everything right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following a
loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported he
had landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to loading his
two passengers for a local flight. The pilot stated the airplane contained
35 gallons of fuel prior to the accident flight. The pilot reported the
engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted the takeoff. The pilot
stated he then performed an engine run-up check and the engine "felt fine."
The airplane experienced a loss of engine power while on the second takeoff
attempt. The pilot stated he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby
road and it impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire
engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with
the engine during a post-accident operational test. The outside temperature
at the time of the accident was approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A
condition known as vapor lock can occur when engine heats the fuel lines and
the contained fuel becomes a vapor. This tendency is increased if the fuel
in the tank is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures.
The fuel vapor can result in partial or complete interruption of fuel flow
to the engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact
ground fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing
near Plymouth, Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of engine power
while on initial climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75 feet, dry asphalt)
at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal Airport (1DS). Visual meteorological
conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The personal flight was
operating under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91 without a flight plan. The
pilot and one passenger were not injured. One passenger reported minor
injuries. The local area flight was originating at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a few
minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot
stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation fuel prior
to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check and
the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto runway 18 and set
the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of manifold pressure. The pilot
stated the airplane became airborne and experienced a loss of engine power
while on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power lines
as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot reported
the airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and an on-ground
fire engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and mounted
on a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The engine started
and idled without anomalies. The engine was then accelerated to 2,200 rpm
which yielded approximately 80 lbs of oil pressure. The engine was then
shut-off using the mixture idle cut-off. There were no anomalies noted with
the engine during the operational test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located at
the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical miles
(nm) southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with an
Automated Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather conditions
were reported prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl),
temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter
setting 29.90 inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a liquid
state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into a vapor.
Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines, pumps, or other
fuel components. The vapor pockets formed by the premature vaporization can
restrict the fuel flow through units that were designed to handle liquids
rather than gases. The resulting partial or complete interruption of the
fuel flow is called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in the
lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank is
warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. Vapor lock can
become serious enough to block the fuel flow completely and stop the engine.
Even small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can restrict the fuel flow to
the engine driven pump and ultimately reduce its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow restriction
caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the high atmospheric
temperature and the road sign that the airplane impacted during the forced
landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning 6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine, just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest sent
back to the tank?
_____
==================================== ====================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gear leg Socket - 7.9mm Drill |
| From: | "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com> |
G'day all,
I have checked the archives and notice that this was discussed a little earlier
in the year. Given the progress since, I was wondering what the concensus was
on drilling the gear leg socket. Options appear to be:
a. find a 7.9 mm (.311) drill and drill per plans.
b. drill to 5/16
c. ream to 5/16 and install a close tolerance bolt
Which is the best way to go??
cheers,
Ron
187 fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Lycoming O 540 starter |
I ran across this the other night on Ebay. Anyone seen these before? Appears
to be equal to the Sky-tec HT model for $255. Anyone used these versus the other
starters?
Textron - Lycoming Starter
Fits all engines up to .0540
1.4 kW gear reduction AIR-BOAT starter.
1 Year Warranty!
2 times stronger than the original!!
10 Lbs. Less!
Starter weighs 9 lbs!
All bearings no bushings!
VERY STRONG AND SUPER LIGHT
This is a direct replacement for the original unit.
Will fit up to 540 Textron Lycoming Engines!
May be used for Experimental Aircraft. (non-certified)
This is for the 149 tooth flywheel.
I ran across this the other night on Ebay. Anyone seen these before? Appears to
be equal to the Sky-tec HT model for $255. Anyone used these versus the other
starters?
Textron - LycomingStarter
Fits all engines up to .0540
1.4 kW gear reduction AIR-BOAT starter.
1 Year Warranty!
2 times stronger than the original!!
10Lbs. Less!
Starter weighs 9 lbs!
All bearings no bushings!
VERY STRONG AND SUPER LIGHT
This is a direct replacement for the original unit.
Will fit up to 540 Textron Lycoming Engines!
May be used for Experimental Aircraft. (non-certified)
This is for the 149 tooth flywheel.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O 540 starter |
Can any of the group tell me if it is possible or if they have heard of any one
that is considering a turbo Lycoming engine installation for RV 10 ?
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: ddddsp1(at)juno.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming O 540 starter
I ran across this the other night on Ebay. Anyone seen these before? Appears
to be equal to the Sky-tec HT model for $255. Anyone used these versus the
other starters?
Textron - Lycoming Starter
Fits all engines up to .0540
1.4 kW gear reduction AIR-BOAT starter.
1 Year Warranty!
2 times stronger than the original!!
10 Lbs. Less!
Starter weighs 9 lbs!
All bearings no bushings!
VERY STRONG AND SUPER LIGHT
This is a direct replacement for the original unit.
Will fit up to 540 Textron Lycoming Engines!
May be used for Experimental Aircraft. (non-certified)
This is for the 149 tooth flywheel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rob kermanj <rv10es(at)earthlink.net> |
Hello all. How do you edit your info on the map? Thanks. Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
Group:
Has anyone installed any cargo tiedown rings in the baggage area? Any
recommendations on a type or a source?
TDT
________________________________
| From: | owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Tim,
Here is a checklist that a local DAR uses as published by EAA Chapter
670. Might come in handy.
http://www.aerovents.com/eaa670/eaabldrcklst.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks
and placards I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a
nameplate, and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under the
HS on -10's. Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
Group:
Did we discuss before what the meaning of "cruise speed" is, vis-=E0-vis if you
need 12 inch N-numbers or 3-inch? The FAR doesn't say MAX speed - just "cruise
speed". It would be close, anyway. I think I've seen -10's with both 12 and
3 inch numbers.
TDT
40025
________________________________
| From: | owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) |
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Tim,
Here is a checklist that a local DAR uses as published by EAA Chapter 670. Might
come in handy.
http://www.aerovents.com/eaa670/eaabldrcklst.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks and placards
I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a nameplate,
and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under the HS on -10's.
Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
Is anybody on the list in Columbia, SC? We are flying in there tomorrow and
are looking for a place to put the -10 in the shade, whether a hangar,
T-hangar or shade hangar. If anybody is there or knows somebody there (KCAE
preferably), please let us know.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
We are definitely on the line with that little rule. Van's top speed of 211mph
is 183.353987 knots and 75% cruise is 201mph or 174.664225 knots. Probably could
get away with three inch but you need 12 inch anyway if you leave the country.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 waiting on fuselage
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Group:
Did we discuss before what the meaning of "cruise speed" is, vis-=E0-vis if you
need 12 inch N-numbers or 3-inch? The FAR doesn't say MAX speed - just "cruise
speed". It would be close, anyway. I think I've seen -10's with both 12 and
3 inch numbers.
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Tim,
Here is a checklist that a local DAR uses as published by EAA Chapter 670. Might
come in handy.
http://www.aerovents.com/eaa670/eaabldrcklst.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks and placards
I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a nameplate,
and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under the HS on -10's.
Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Hunter" <rwhunter(at)integraonline.com> |
| Subject: | Possible big mistake |
Hi all!
I am just finishing the rudder and was unable to get a rivet into the
skin and end of the R-1004. The plans call for putting in a
CCR264SS-3-2 on the other side which I can do but I can't seem to get
the other side because of the limited space. I thought of trying a
CCR264SS-3-2 on both sides but they are too long. Any suggestions?
-----Original Message---
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RV10-List: Columbia, SC
Is anybody on the list in Columbia, SC? We are flying in there tomorrow
and are looking for a place to put the -10 in the shade, whether a
hangar, T-hangar or shade hangar. If anybody is there or knows somebody
there (KCAE preferably), please let us know.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
| From: | "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Given that Van's published 75% cruise speed is 175kts at 2200lbs and 171
at 2700 with the 260 hp engine, unless you find some significant speed
tweaks, you aren't going to exceed 180kts CAS in cruise.
But as Tim mentions, there are considerations besides just going with the
minimum.
Tim Dawson-Townsend said:
> Group:
>
>
> Did we discuss before what the meaning of "cruise speed" is, vis--vis if
> you need 12 inch N-numbers or 3-inch? The FAR doesn't say MAX speed -
> just "cruise speed". It would be close, anyway. I think I've seen -10's
> with both 12 and 3 inch numbers.
>
>
> TDT
>
> 40025
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Placards/Nameplate |
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
Note: You don't need 12 inch for Canada. But then, that's not really a different
country . . . : )
I like 3 inch "just because I can" - another way to set yourself apart from the
certified "spam cans" . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
We are definitely on the line with that little rule. Van's top speed of 211mph
is 183.353987 knots and 75% cruise is 201mph or 174.664225 knots. Probably could
get away with three inch but you need 12 inch anyway if you leave the country.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 waiting on fuselage
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Group:
Did we discuss before what the meaning of "cruise speed" is, vis-=E0-vis if you
need 12 inch N-numbers or 3-inch? The FAR doesn't say MAX speed - just "cruise
speed". It would be close, anyway. I think I've seen -10's with both 12 and
3 inch numbers.
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
Tim,
Here is a checklist that a local DAR uses as published by EAA Chapter 670. Might
come in handy.
http://www.aerovents.com/eaa670/eaabldrcklst.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Placards/Nameplate
I was thinking that on my next order from ACS, I'd get whatever logbooks and placards
I'll need. I see on this page of ACS's catalog they have a nameplate,
and stainless steel ID tag on the top of the page.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06348.pdf
I need both of these, right? I've seen the black on the side under the HS on -10's.
Where would the nameplate go?
Tim
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | Possible big mistake |
A picture would help, but in absence, are you saying that you have no room
to get a bucking bar in there? If this is the case for the solid rivet,
have you tried to grind down an old cold chisel? Also with the stainless
steel blind rivets, you can put one in, bottom it out, then pull up just
enough to give you some more room, then push in again, etc.
John Jessen
328 HS & Elevators
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Hunter
Subject: RV10-List: Possible big mistake
Hi all!
I am just finishing the rudder and was unable to get a rivet into the skin
and end of the R-1004. The plans call for putting in a CCR264SS-3-2 on the
other side which I can do but I can't seem to get the other side because of
the limited space. I thought of trying a CCR264SS-3-2 on both sides but
they are too long. Any suggestions?
-----Original Message---
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RV10-List: Columbia, SC
Is anybody on the list in Columbia, SC? We are flying in there tomorrow and
are looking for a place to put the -10 in the shade, whether a hangar,
T-hangar or shade hangar. If anybody is there or knows somebody there (KCAE
preferably), please let us know.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Columbia, SC |
Call me after 11:30 AM today.
I have a plane based at KCAE.
James
803-238-2113
On 11/2/05, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Is anybody on the list in Columbia, SC? We are flying in there tomorrow
> and are looking for a place to put the -10 in the shade, whether a hangar,
> T-hangar or shade hangar. If anybody is there or knows somebody there (KCAE
> preferably), please let us know.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
>
> W: 352-465-4545
>
> C: 352-427-0285
>
> F: 815-377-3694
>
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james(at)nextupventures.com .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
Thanks, James, for your help.
Our plane will also be in Louisville, KY from Monday through the following
Monday. Does anybody have an empty hangar up in that area that we could
park in?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Electric Aileron Trim #8 Screw Dimples |
I am installing you Electric Aileron Trim in my RV-10
On page OP38-4 Step 4 the instructions have me dimple the wing
access plate for #8 flush-head screws. I cannot find in the instructions a
step to dimple the aileron trim actuation assembly. Are these #19
holes to be left un-dimpled? Is the assembly to sit only on the
dimples in the access plate, because that is what will happen if the
holes on the assembly are not dimpled.
The response from Ken Scott at Vans is
Good catch. We've added a line to Step 4 specifying that #19
holes in the Actuation Assembly should be dimpled for a #8 screw.
Larry Rosen
#40356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | TruTrak Roll Servo Update |
TruTrak has modified the installation of the Roll Servo for the 10.
Instead of the push-rod connecting to the bell crank, there is a bracket
that attaches to the bell crank, and then the push-rod connects to the
bracket. The new push rod is shorter. Also, you will need an AN3-15A
bolt. According to TruTrak this modification was made to improve the
torque characteristics of the servo. Fortunately, if you installed the
servo the old way, the new bracket will utilize the hold you already
drilled in the bellcrank assembly. Attached is a photo of the new
installation.
Larry Rosen
#356
Installing roll servo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald Grover" <rv8grover(at)bwdmail.net> |
| Subject: | Lasar Ignition Horror Story |
Listers:
If you own or are considering the Lasar Ignition System for your airplane,
read this and beware. Lasar Ignition came on my new Lycoming Engine from the
factory. A screw on the distributor cap backed out of my left magneto and it
took 364 hours of working back and forth to destroy the magneto. Unisons
service manual doesn't even have you look at the points until 500 hours.
After sending him pictures of the Magneto, the Service Representative at
Unison said that it was beyond the warranty period and couldn't possibility
be a manufacturing defect and they wouldn't pay for anything.
This all started with a 300+ mag drop on the Left Magneto. While looking for
the cause of the Mag drop, I removed the ignition lead caps and found the
left magneto distributor cap moving up and down. Danny King and I took the
magneto apart and found that one of the screws on the distributor had backed
out and had been working in the hole in the case. There was plastic, carbon,
and aluminum dust all over in the magneto.
Lessons learned:
Unison doesn't stand behind their top of the line Ignition System.
None of their dealers stock the 4771 magneto meaning minimum of 3 weeks to
get one.
The only way you can get one sooner is say A.O.G. and the distributor can
have it drop shipped from the factory overnight for another $45.
Aircraft Spruce had the lowest price of $601 plus $150 core charge.
I have bought my last Unison Product. If anything else goes wrong with the
Lasar system, I will remove it from the airplane and install P-Mags. A P-Mag
system is less than half the cost of the Lasar system and being a new
company, I'll bet you they would be very interested in a premature failure
of one of their components.
Ron Grover
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Roll Servo Update |
I'm assuming that those of us who have the "old" hardware and have yet
to install can request the "new" hardware?
-Sean #40303 (top wing skins)
Larry Rosen wrote:
> TruTrak has modified the installation of the Roll Servo for the 10.
> Instead of the push-rod connecting to the bell crank, there is a
> bracket that attaches to the bell crank, and then the push-rod
> connects to the bracket. The new push rod is shorter. Also, you will
> need an AN3-15A bolt. According to TruTrak this modification was made
> to improve the torque characteristics of the servo. Fortunately, if
> you installed the servo the old way, the new bracket will utilize the
> hold you already drilled in the bellcrank assembly. Attached is a
> photo of the new installation.
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
> Installing roll servo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Electric Aileron Trim #8 Screw Dimples |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Yes, dimple the bracket. As you progress through the chapters, Van's stops telling
you to do some things and they assume you will know what to do. Cut's back
on the wording but it makes you spend more time wondering if you are forgetting
something.
BTW, those springs are a pain in the arse to attach. Just did it myself last weekend.
Enjoy!
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 waiting on fuselage/odds and ends
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Subject: RV10-List: Electric Aileron Trim #8 Screw Dimples
I am installing you Electric Aileron Trim in my RV-10 On page OP38-4 Step 4 the
instructions have me dimple the wing access plate for #8 flush-head screws.
I cannot find in the instructions a step to dimple the aileron trim actuation
assembly. Are these #19 holes to be left un-dimpled? Is the assembly to sit
only on the dimples in the access plate, because that is what will happen if
the holes on the assembly are not dimpled.
The response from Ken Scott at Vans is
Good catch. We've added a line to Step 4 specifying that #19 holes in the Actuation
Assembly should be dimpled for a #8 screw.
Larry Rosen
#40356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
Hey, Jesse, have you guys ordered a canopy cover for your airplane? : )
TDT
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint
Subject: RV10-List: Louisville, KY
Thanks, James, for your help.
Our plane will also be in Louisville, KY from Monday through the following Monday.
Does anybody have an empty hangar up in that area that we could park in?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com> |
| Subject: | Lasar Ignition Horror Story |
We have a customer using two LASARs on a Lancair 320. A few months ago,
with 120 hours on the mags, he reported a similar mag drop. He did the
troubleshooting and isolated the mechanical mag. A brief inspection did not
show any problems--points looked OK, all wires intact. He returned the mag
to Unison and waited for 2 months. They eventually replaced the mag free of
charge but would not tell us what was wrong. They were nice enough about
it, but it did take a long time, and it did fail suddenly at 120 hours.
The system is bulky and heavy, and it requires special tools to use.
What is the advantage to a more efficient engine when it's down for months
at a time?
I'd have a hard time recommending LASAR even over standard mags.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
831-722-9141
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Grover
Subject: RV10-List: Lasar Ignition Horror Story
Listers:
If you own or are considering the Lasar Ignition System for your airplane,
read this and beware. Lasar Ignition came on my new Lycoming Engine from the
factory. A screw on the distributor cap backed out of my left magneto and it
took 364 hours of working back and forth to destroy the magneto. Unisons
service manual doesn't even have you look at the points until 500 hours.
After sending him pictures of the Magneto, the Service Representative at
Unison said that it was beyond the warranty period and couldn't possibility
be a manufacturing defect and they wouldn't pay for anything.
This all started with a 300+ mag drop on the Left Magneto. While looking for
the cause of the Mag drop, I removed the ignition lead caps and found the
left magneto distributor cap moving up and down. Danny King and I took the
magneto apart and found that one of the screws on the distributor had backed
out and had been working in the hole in the case. There was plastic, carbon,
and aluminum dust all over in the magneto.
Lessons learned:
Unison doesn't stand behind their top of the line Ignition System.
None of their dealers stock the 4771 magneto meaning minimum of 3 weeks to
get one.
The only way you can get one sooner is say A.O.G. and the distributor can
have it drop shipped from the factory overnight for another $45.
Aircraft Spruce had the lowest price of $601 plus $150 core charge.
I have bought my last Unison Product. If anything else goes wrong with the
Lasar system, I will remove it from the airplane and install P-Mags. A P-Mag
system is less than half the cost of the Lasar system and being a new
company, I'll bet you they would be very interested in a premature failure
of one of their components.
Ron Grover
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com> |
Do you have your heat boxes that fit on the firewall yet? Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Randy,
Please explain why when the heat controls are turned off the unused heat
is dumped around the fuel pump
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
________________________________
From: Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy(at)abros.com]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to
vapor lock. It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing
out at about 1000 fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was
passing through 5000ft I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its
normal 19 to 21 psi to around 17.5. I turned on the fuel pump and the
pressure went to 28 psi. I lowered the nose and left the fuel pump on
for 5 min or so. Lowering the nose did the trick. Turned the fuel pump
off and the pressures were fine. I have a 1" scat tube running to the
fuel pump to cool it. Remember that with the heater controls turned off
that the unused heated air is dumped right around the fuel pump. I have
had no issues starting the engine when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is
to leave the mix full lean and start cranking. After 5 revs or so if it
isn't running already start bleeding in some fuel with the mix. Starts
every time. 102 hours and counting. I am working on my IFR ticket for
the next few months. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live.
The pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he
did everything right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following a
loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported
he had landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to
loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot stated the
airplane contained 35 gallons of fuel prior to the accident flight. The
pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check
and the engine "felt fine." The airplane experienced a loss of engine
power while on the second takeoff attempt. The pilot stated he
maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road and it impacted a road
sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire engulfed the airplane
shortly thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during
a post-accident operational test. The outside temperature at the time of
the accident was approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A condition known as
vapor lock can occur when engine heats the fuel lines and the contained
fuel becomes a vapor. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank
is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. The fuel
vapor can result in partial or complete interruption of fuel flow to the
engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact
ground fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced
landing near Plymouth, Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of
engine power while on initial climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75
feet, dry asphalt) at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal Airport (1DS). Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The
personal flight was operating under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91
without a flight plan. The pilot and one passenger were not injured. One
passenger reported minor injuries. The local area flight was originating
at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a
few minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The
pilot stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation
fuel prior to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he
aborted the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up
check and the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto
runway 18 and set the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of
manifold pressure. The pilot stated the airplane became airborne and
experienced a loss of engine power while on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power
lines as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot
reported the airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and
an on-ground fire engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and
mounted on a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The
engine started and idled without anomalies. The engine was then
accelerated to 2,200 rpm which yielded approximately 80 lbs of oil
pressure. The engine was then shut-off using the mixture idle cut-off.
There were no anomalies noted with the engine during the operational
test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located
at the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical
miles (nm) southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with
an Automated Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather
conditions were reported prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl),
temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter
setting 29.90 inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a
liquid state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into
a vapor. Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines,
pumps, or other fuel components. The vapor pockets formed by the
premature vaporization can restrict the fuel flow through units that
were designed to handle liquids rather than gases. The resulting partial
or complete interruption of the fuel flow is called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in
the lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the
tank is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures.
Vapor lock can become serious enough to block the fuel flow completely
and stop the engine. Even small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can
restrict the fuel flow to the engine driven pump and ultimately reduce
its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow
restriction caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the
high atmospheric temperature and the road sign that the airplane
impacted during the forced landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just
runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning
6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same
thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where
I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing
to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any
issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an
accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the
wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only
fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know
what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use
individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no
fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and
closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine,
just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an
auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing
a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is
required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only
the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest
sent
back to the tank?
_____
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection |
| From: | "Randy DeBauw" <Randy(at)abros.com> |
That is correct Jesse. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
He must mean the fuel pump mounted on the engine. That is where the
heated air is dumped when the cabin heat is turned off. It goes right
into the engine compartment below the mags and right by the fuel pump.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Randy,
Please explain why when the heat controls are turned off the unused heat
is dumped around the fuel pump
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
________________________________
From: Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy(at)abros.com]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Well let me tell you about one instance of my fuel system starting to
vapor lock. It was a hot day this summer, about 96 deg. I was climbing
out at about 1000 fpm from 150ft airport elev. to 9000ft. when I was
passing through 5000ft I noticed the fuel pressure dropping from its
normal 19 to 21 psi to around 17.5. I turned on the fuel pump and the
pressure went to 28 psi. I lowered the nose and left the fuel pump on
for 5 min or so. Lowering the nose did the trick. Turned the fuel pump
off and the pressures were fine. I have a 1" scat tube running to the
fuel pump to cool it. Remember that with the heater controls turned off
that the unused heated air is dumped right around the fuel pump. I have
had no issues starting the engine when hot - 100 plus deg. The trick is
to leave the mix full lean and start cranking. After 5 revs or so if it
isn't running already start bleeding in some fuel with the mix. Starts
every time. 102 hours and counting. I am working on my IFR ticket for
the next few months. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
Vapor lock is NOT just a startup problem.
The following is an NTSB report from a crash near where my parents live.
The pilot and passengers were not hurt, and although it sounds like he
did everything right vapor lock still bit him.
-Jim 40384
NTSB Number: CHI04CA210
Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The airplane was destroyed during a post-impact ground fire, following a
loss of engine power and subsequent forced landing. The pilot reported
he had landed and shut down the engine for a few minutes prior to
loading his two passengers for a local flight. The pilot stated the
airplane contained 35 gallons of fuel prior to the accident flight. The
pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he aborted
the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up check
and the engine "felt fine." The airplane experienced a loss of engine
power while on the second takeoff attempt. The pilot stated he
maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road and it impacted a road
sign prior to coming to stop. An on-ground fire engulfed the airplane
shortly thereafter. There were no anomalies noted with the engine during
a post-accident operational test. The outside temperature at the time of
the accident was approximately 28 degrees Celsius. A condition known as
vapor lock can occur when engine heats the fuel lines and the contained
fuel becomes a vapor. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the tank
is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures. The fuel
vapor can result in partial or complete interruption of fuel flow to the
engine.
Narrative Type: NTSB PRELIMINARY NARRATIVE (6120.19)
On July 31, 2004, at 1519 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28RT-201T,
N77782, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed during a post-impact
ground fire following a loss of engine power and subsequent forced
landing near Plymouth, Michigan. The airplane experienced the loss of
engine power while on initial climb from runway 18 (2,556 feet by 75
feet, dry asphalt) at the Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal Airport (1DS). Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The
personal flight was operating under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91
without a flight plan. The pilot and one passenger were not injured. One
passenger reported minor injuries. The local area flight was originating
at the time of the accident.
The pilot reported he had landed at 1500 and shut down the engine for a
few minutes prior to loading his two passengers for a local flight. The
pilot stated the airplane contained 35 gallons of 100 low-lead aviation
fuel prior to the accident flight.
The pilot reported the engine "shuddered" during takeoff roll and he
aborted the takeoff. The pilot stated he then performed an engine run-up
check and the engine "felt fine." The pilot reported he taxied onto
runway 18 and set the engine power to 2,500 rpm and 38 inches of
manifold pressure. The pilot stated the airplane became airborne and
experienced a loss of engine power while on initial climb.
The pilot reported he switched fuel tanks, but there was no increase in
engine power. The pilot stated the airplane descended under some power
lines as he maneuvered the airplane to land on a nearby road. The pilot
reported the airplane impacted a road sign prior to coming to stop and
an on-ground fire engulfed the airplane shortly thereafter.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors performed the on-site
investigation. The engine was removed from the accident airplane and
mounted on a compatible airframe for an operational engine test. The
engine started and idled without anomalies. The engine was then
accelerated to 2,200 rpm which yielded approximately 80 lbs of oil
pressure. The engine was then shut-off using the mixture idle cut-off.
There were no anomalies noted with the engine during the operational
test.
The closest weather reporting station to the accident site was located
at the Willow Run Airport (YIP), Detroit, Michigan, about 7.4 nautical
miles (nm) southeast of the accident site. The airport is equipped with
an Automated Surface Observing System (ASOS). The following weather
conditions were reported prior to and at the time of the accident:
At 1453 edt: Wind 230 degrees at 11 knots, visibility unrestricted at 10
statute miles (sm), few clouds at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl),
temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point -01 degrees Celsius, altimeter
setting 29.90 inches-of-mercury.
According to FAA publication AC 65-12A, fuel normally remains in a
liquid state until it is discharged into the air stream and changes into
a vapor. Under certain conditions the fuel may vaporize in the lines,
pumps, or other fuel components. The vapor pockets formed by the
premature vaporization can restrict the fuel flow through units that
were designed to handle liquids rather than gases. The resulting partial
or complete interruption of the fuel flow is called vapor lock.
Transfer of heat from the engine tends to cause vaporization of fuel in
the lines and the pump. This tendency is increased if the fuel in the
tank is warm, commonly as a result of high atmospheric temperatures.
Vapor lock can become serious enough to block the fuel flow completely
and stop the engine. Even small amounts of vapor in the inlet line can
restrict the fuel flow to the engine driven pump and ultimately reduce
its output pressure.
Narrative Type: NTSB PROBABLE CAUSE NARRATIVE
The loss of engine power at a low altitude due to a fuel flow
restriction caused by vapor lock. Factors to the accident included the
high atmospheric temperature and the road sign that the airplane
impacted during the forced landing.
Jesse Saint wrote:
I am a little confused as well. We have a Bendix injection system. We
haven't put a return line in. We do have an overflow line that just
runs
out the back of the cowling. The system can't be pumping much more fuel
that it is using or our fuel flows would be higher. When burning
6.5-7gph @
17,500, I can't imagine that we are actually burning less than that and
wasting a significant amount. Is the main issue here vapor lock? Would
this system not work the same way whether you have a return line or an
overflow drain line? Running the boost pump is going to do the same
thing
any, right. I am not much of an engine guy, so please let me know where
I
am wrong. Also, if vapor lock mainly a startup issue, or are we needing
to
worry about this while we are flying? We certainly haven't had any
issues
with the system during our 150 hours in the air, but if it is an
accident
waiting to happen, it doesn't matter how many hours we have flown the
wrong
way, we want to fix it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vapor return for mechanical fuel injection
It depends on the brand fuel injection used. TCM and Bendix do not use a
common rail, they send fuel to a distributor that sends it to individual
injectors. Bendix regulates the fuel flow at the fuel servo, and only
fuel
needed goes to the distributor and injectors. Fuel pumps are self
limiting, returning excess pressure to their low pressure side. TCM
(Continental) is different, and does use a return loop. I don't know
what
aftermarket systems use.
There isn't much in common between aircraft injection systems and auto
systems. Aircraft still use continuous injection, most cars use
individual
timed injection for better emissions control. Aircraft distributors are
pressure controled, so when pressure drops below a preset minimum, no
fuel
goes to the injectors, allowing idle cutoff.
Lloyd, Daniel R. said:
It does, I did not realize there is a valve that is opened and
closed.
That makes more sense. I have not flown behind an IO engine,
just
standard. Now maybe you can explain to me, is it like in an
auto, where
there is allot more fuel going to the rail then is used, causing
a
return line to be necessary? or does it only pump what is
required/
used? I thought fuel injection meant a looped system, where only
the
portion of fuel that went to the injectors was used and the rest
sent
back to the tank?
_____
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
> We do not have a cover yet. Did anything happen with the guy on this
> list who was going to look into getting a kit put together? We would
> really like to get a cover, but would still like to be in a hangar
whenever possible.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F:815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Louisville, KY
Hey, Jesse, have you guys ordered a canopy cover for your airplane? : )
TDT
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint
Subject: RV10-List: Louisville, KY
Thanks, James, for your help.
Our plane will also be in Louisville, KY from Monday through the following
Monday. Does anybody have an empty hangar up in that area that we could
park in?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F:815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Sponcil" <bsponcil(at)belinblank.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Louisville, KY |
Jesse,
What dates are you talking about? I'm going to be in Louisville the 7th-13th so
if you want to show off your plane let me know. No big deal though if you're
too busy.
-Brian
Iowa City, IA
Empennage
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Louisville, KY
Thanks, James, for your help.
Our plane will also be in Louisville, KY from Monday through the following Monday.
Does anybody have an empty hangar up in that area that we could park in?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
The plane will be there the 7th through the 14th. My dad will be in
Louisville at a conference, but he may be interested in showing it off a
little. I can give you a cell phone number for the guy that will be with
October 16, 2005 - November 02, 2005
RV10-Archive.digest.vol-at