RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Bill DeRouchey <billderou(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Pilots need to know flap angle
Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots perspective? I
can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting (Ray Allen POS-12), a very
exact setting (string pot) or simply do nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds
to flaps all the way up or all the way down with a quick look out the
window to confirm.
Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, #40029, billderou(at)yahoo.com
flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
________________________________________________________________________________
Upset, not really. No skin off my back either way. Just want to make
sure people are informed before risking $30k. I look at the RV-10 list
as an extended family and would hope people give me opinions, good or
bad, about something I may be looking into. It's up to everyone to make
their own decisions and no one should base anything on the ramblings of
one person. Just do the research.
I completely agree with what Dan said, other than the upset part. :)
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Not even close, Mike is just an upset individual when it comes to this
subject.
NSI and Crossflow are two that come to mind, Eggenfellner is in a whole
different class, as he has actually delivered on his word, where Lance
and others did not.
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james(at)nextupventures.com .
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Brian Sponcil" <bsponcil(at)belinblank.org>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around when
we're shopping for motors.
See:
http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1
As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I can
get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for quite a bit
less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but how long is it going
to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if you're going to go
alternative, the product needs to be compelling on either performance or
price and I don't think the Subaru engine is significantly different on
either. IMHO, of course.
-Brian
#40497
N211BD
Iowa City, IA
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>
> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
> a '10 with Corvette power?
>
> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
> concentric-shaft props . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
PJ Seipel <seipel(at)seznam.cz>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since
they only sell to OEM's. Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be
good enough that Van would be willing to try it.
PJ
#40032
Brian Sponcil wrote:
>
>
>
> For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around
> when we're shopping for motors.
>
> See:
> http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1
>
>
> As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I
> can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for
> quite a bit less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but
> how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if
> you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on
> either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is
> significantly different on either. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
>> a '10 with Corvette power?
>>
>> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
>> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Electric Load analysis
I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar
information, however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are
some 'proven' examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20
architecture at the moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's
overkill for me), which includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up
alternator.
I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load
analysis. I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would
welcome any review / critique that others may offer. Just remember that
I'm no Sparky either and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be
gentle with any critique. O:-)
THANKS
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Pilots need to know flap angle
>
> At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
There is no flap position sensor on my -7A and although for the first hundred
flight hours or so I would look out the window to see flap position, it really
isn't necessary once you get to know your airplane because you can feel the difference
in the stick pressure combined with the view out the front window in
the approach attitude. It's also pretty simple to just hold the flap switch
for the number of seconds that correspond to partial and full flap positioning.
It is one of those nice to have things, but much more relevant for a spam can like
my C182, where one didn't have the nice 'rack and pinion steering in 3 dimensions'
that you get with an RV. You can really feel the airplane flying in
an RV -- all the way through flare to touchdown.
-Dan Masys
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Headliner before cabin cover riveting?
I am at point in the plans where it says to rivet the cabin cover on, but I was
waiting till OSH to go see about interior upholstery (probably from Flightline).
In the archives there is chat about installing the headliner before installing
the cabin cover. Is putting the headliner in a big enough deal that I should
wait before riveting the structure together, or just one of those things
that is nice to do if you have the chance? (Sure would be nice to get the structures
part of the project out of the way to move onto FWF and systems goodies.)
-Dan Masys
#40448
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Electric Load analysis
Looks about right, Deems. I have the Z13 ("all electric airplane on a budget")
architecture in my -7A, and am doing the same for the -10. Steady state alternator
loads with everything turned on except the pitot heat are about 20-25 amps
(with TruTrak/alt hold, GX60, three electric gyros, SL30, GTX327, GRT EIS
and Duckworks lights in both wings). I have the 8 amp backup alternator on the
engine accessory pad, with the plan to shed load to a manageable level on the
endurance bus in case of main alternator failure. I suppose I'll spring for
a 60 amp alternator for the -10, but Van's 35 amp bargain basement alternator
and solid state voltage regulator are really adequate for the current RV, and
the new one actually has a lower load analysis due to the relatively small current
draw of the GRT displays relative to motor driven gyros.
-Dan Masys
40448
---- Deems Davis wrote:
> I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
> together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
> don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar
> information, however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are
> some 'proven' examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20
> architecture at the moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's
> overkill for me), which includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up
> alternator.
> I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
> builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load
> analysis. I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would
> welcome any review / critique that others may offer. Just remember that
> I'm no Sparky either and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be
> gentle with any critique. O:-)
>
> THANKS
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Fuse/Finishing
> http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Thielert looks like a good future alternative. They have built up good
support, it seems, and are now part of Superior, so they have a US
presence now, too. Diamond is/will be delivering airplanes with
Thielert, so there's a base, too. When my 540 reaches TBO . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 6:09 PM
The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since
they only sell to OEM's. Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be
good enough that Van would be willing to try it.
PJ
#40032
Brian Sponcil wrote:
>
>
>
> For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around
> when we're shopping for motors.
>
> See:
>
http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=
625&L=1
>
>
> As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I
> can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for
> quite a bit less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but
> how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if
> you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on
> either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is
> significantly different on either. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly
building
>> a '10 with Corvette power?
>>
>> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
>> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Can't say a lot because in the building stage instead of the flying stage
but I looked at all the options before I made my decision on which direction
for an engine I would go.
I spent a lot of time researching the Inodyne, talked with Deltahawk about
the diesel and Subaru. I ended up going with a tried but not popular engine
from Mazda. A Cosmo 20 B. I am in the process of a complete overhaul and I
do mean complete. All the parts will cost me less than $2000.00. I will
easily get 280 horsepower from the engine and will burn a little more gas.
I'll burn .50 lbs per horsepower instead on .42. That sounds bad until you
realize that I'm burning mogas at 3.05 instead of 100LL at $4.60. All of a
sudden my MPDollar is not bad at all. When I'm done I will have close to
$7500 into a zero time overhaul that should last well beyond 2000 hours. I
believe that is less than the cost of a crankshaft replacement for a
Lycoming.
There is enough support out there for the Cosmo that I have very little fear
in the engine.
Tracy Crook and Conversion Concepts have led the way and Vari-Pitch Props
have sealed the deal. Imagine a prop that is hydraulic for a lot less than
Hartzell. It's up to Larry at Vari-pitch to tell you how much but I'm going
to be into a flying RV-10 for under $75,000 and that includes GRT dual
displays.
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
PS: See you at OSHKOSH.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"lyleap" <lyleap(at)comcast.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
RV-10 Kits
Chapter 237 in Minneapolis has RV-10 kits for sale. They include the
empennage which has been assembled, the Quick Build wing and fuselage kits.
The latter are still in the crates as shipped from Van's. An EAA Technical
Counselor and a two time RV builder pronounce the workmanship excellent on
the tail feathers. Contact below or
atirburgess at msn.com for more information.
Lyle Peterson
lyleap at comcast.net
651-653-2063
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports. Any
suggestions?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Ok, everyone, be proud of your choices, but don't lump the rest of the
builders into one category "rest of the crowd" or another "purists."
Any minute now somebody's bound to start discussing priming or not, types of
primers/paints, flying or painting first, vertical or horizontal stacked
EFIS, or anything else that's _Purely_Builder_Preference_!
Rick S, I dunno 'bout them Red Sox!
Rob
#392
Yes, I too, have purchased a powerplant. I just wish I could run it with
the dried up grass from my lawn. Rain, please?
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Static Ports
I really like the static ports from cleaveland tool, worth the $$....i
didn=92t rivet them, but I used structural epoxy and its looks great=85
Steve
40205
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 PM
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports. Any
suggestions?
Anh
#141
--
7/14/2006
--
7/14/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 17, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These
will also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: DejaVu
To: RV10
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports.
Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Uh, please don't utter the words "rain please" during the week prior to
Oshkosh! : )
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 12:02 AM
Ok, everyone, be proud of your choices, but don't lump the rest of the
builders into one category "rest of the crowd" or another "purists."
Any minute now somebody's bound to start discussing priming or not,
types of
primers/paints, flying or painting first, vertical or horizontal stacked
EFIS, or anything else that's _Purely_Builder_Preference_!
Rick S, I dunno 'bout them Red Sox!
Rob
#392
Yes, I too, have purchased a powerplant. I just wish I could run it
with
the dried up grass from my lawn. Rain, please?
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that
we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of
the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
You are welcome. But more so important is for someone (in this case YOU) to
come back and say "thanks" to someone who (hopefully politely) questions how
stuff is "put out there". To me that says way more about you than even your
detailed response.
James
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> James, thanks for calling BS on me BTW. I'm always happy to have someone
> question a statement on the list as there is waaaay too much fluff thrown
> around on the net. I TRY to have facts when I post as I don't like it when
> people point to me and say he's full of it. :) Of course no one is perfect
> and I can always rely on John, Dan, and others to point out the errors of my
> ways and I will always be the first to stand up and say I'm wrong. I just
> try to make sure it doesn't happen very often. ;-)
>
> <<>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
Will second that notion. I have responded many times before on the this
subject. Contact me off list if you need or want help. Somewhere you
have to turn the line 90 degrees to get it to the panel. I suggest using
the ports with female threads & the 90 degree adaptor fittings that
screw into them. Much more secure than "glued on" in a place that you
can't visit/inspect/repair that easily. KABONG HR II, 280hrs plus. Do
Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static Ports
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These
will also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: DejaVu
To: RV10
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports.
Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Chris , Susie Darcy" <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Seat screw help
Ok anyone know where the AN509-8R10 are that are used to hold the seat
rails down??? Need 72 of them. Page 49-03
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static Ports
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These
will also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: DejaVu
To: RV10
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports.
Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Wayne Edgerton" <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting?
I believe Toni Sustare, the guy with the overhaed console, has or is
building window trim pieces for the 10. I'm guessing he will be at
Ashkosh this year, he was at Sun-N-Fun. I've gotten lucky, I hope, and
found a custom car upholstery guy who also does planes and he will be
building a frame around my windows to be covered.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
baffling baffles
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
Proseal around the tube and the pop rivet.
Rob Kermanj
On Jul 17, 2006, at 11:42 PM, DejaVu wrote:
> I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet
> ports. Any suggestions?
> Anh
> #141
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Seat screw help
My QB Fuselage was short the AN509-8R10's and I called Van's and had
them ship them out free.
Russ Daves
N710RV
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris , Susie Darcy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:46 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Seat screw help
Ok anyone know where the AN509-8R10 are that are used to hold the seat
rails down??? Need 72 of them. Page 49-03
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static Ports
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These
will also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: DejaVu
To: RV10
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet
ports. Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
jwik <jwik(at)crary.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Return from Oshkosh
I have a new scheduling difficulty and thought I'd take a shot at a
solution from this group.
My son and I are attending Airventure the 28th through the 30th. I now
have a business meeting in Chicago on the 31st but my son needs to be
back at work as well flying fire patrol in MN (building time). Home for
him is Fargo ND.
If by chance he could bum a ride back with someone on sunday the 30th,
I could head down directly from OSH to Chicago for my meeting.
We'd gladly pay our share of gas or maybe there could be some barter for
a bi-ennial or Intrument compentency check as he is a youg single or
multi CFII.
Thanks - enjoy the list very much.
Jay Wik #40536 Tailcone
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Conti, Rick" <rick.conti(at)boeing.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Electric Load analysis
Deems,
I took a quick look at your spreadsheet, it's a good list. I would
expect the SL30, SL40, and transponder to have two current draws. One
when receiving and a higher one when transmitting.
You might want to add the current draw of the starter when it's
cranking. I have a completely electronic panel. Meaning my oil
pressure gauge is part of the EFIS. Hence the EFIS must be on when I
start the engine. The voltage drop on a 12 volt system when the starter
is cranking is sufficient to "reboot" any electronics that are
operating. That is why I opted for a 24 volt system. To give you some
idea of the voltage drop during engine start, multiply the battery's
internal resistance by the starter current draw. Then subtract that
number from 12. That will give you the voltage available during start.
Thank You
Rick Conti
The Boeing Company
Senior Engineering Manager
office: 703 - 414 - 6141
blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:49 PM
I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar
information, however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are
some 'proven' examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20
architecture at the moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's
overkill for me), which includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up
alternator.
I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load
analysis. I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would
welcome any review / critique that others may offer. Just remember that
I'm no Sparky either and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be
gentle with any critique. O:-)
THANKS
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Michael Schipper <mike(at)learningplanet.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
On my -9A I installed the Static kit from SafeAir1 and I am glad I
did. When I had my pitot/static/transponder test done, the tech found
no leaks and commented that the number one problem that he sees with
RV avionics is the use of those pop rivets. He couldn't imagine why
someone would spend so much money on an airplane and nice avionics
only to attach it to a cheap and unreliable static source.
Anyways, I'm sure there are folks who use the pop rivets with
success. But I will be going with the SafeAir1 kit for the -10.
By the way, I'll be up at Oshkosh all week, camping with the -9A in
the homebuilt camping area.
Regards,
Mike Schipper
RV-10 #40576 - Emp - www.rvten.com
RV-9A N63MS - Flying - www.my9a.com
On Jul 18, 2006, at 12:00 AM, David Maib wrote:
> I have read some comments that seem to say that the Vans static
> port kit is actually very accurate in spite of being cheap and
> simple. Does anybody have any comparison with the Aircraft Spruce
> and other more sophisticated systems? I know they look way better,
> but am interested in performance.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Message Posting
Tim,
I have heard other problems with the posts, I am using EarthLink mail page online,
is there something else I should do? I would hate to think my incredibly valuable
and informative posts are being for naught!! :)
And your #1 on my hit list to visit at OSH, maybe we can have a James McClow memory
flashback with all the people who he was near and dear to.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Bob will fly, that is if he can ever get the Cosmo off his bench!!!
It is a pretty color red though :)
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Message Posting & Oshkosh
We should endow the "James McClow Educational Center" at Oshkosh or
something . . .
Or at least hoist a beer . . .
P.S. Looks like my "life coach" has given my permission to make a short
trip up to OSH. I'll be in Tuesday pm to Wednesday pm . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:44 AM
Tim,
I have heard other problems with the posts, I am using EarthLink mail
page online, is there something else I should do? I would hate to think
my incredibly valuable and informative posts are being for naught!! :)
And your #1 on my hit list to visit at OSH, maybe we can have a James
McClow memory flashback with all the people who he was near and dear to.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Electric Load analysis
> The voltage drop on a 12 volt system when the starter
> is cranking is sufficient to "reboot" any electronics that are
> operating. That is why I opted for a 24 volt system.
My GRT EIS has never rebooted during 12v. engine cranking, though if I happen to
have left the GX60 on during a start, the GPS/Comm will occasionally do so while
cranking the engine. Risk of this probably depends upon the particular EFIS
unit you have.
The Grand Rapids engine monitor has been the absolutely most rock stable and reliable
electronic system in the airplane, which is one of the reasons I chose
to go with their EFIS also for the -10. (Don't know yet if the EFIS will be as
resistant to voltage sags as the EIS is.)
-Dan Masys
40448
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
"Any minute now somebody's bound to start discussing priming or not, types of
primers/paints,"
Priming? You mean people are actually applying some sort of primer? Where does
it go? On the inside or outside before you paint the airframe prior to the first
flight?
"If theres a pot, I'll stir it!!" :)
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Message Posting & Oshkosh
Seconding the motion for the James McClow Educational Center. I miss
the guy. Look forward to seeing all of you.
John - $00.02
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:00 AM
We should endow the "James McClow Educational Center" at Oshkosh or
something . . .
Or at least hoist a beer . . .
P.S. Looks like my "life coach" has given my permission to make a short
trip up to OSH. I'll be in Tuesday pm to Wednesday pm . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:44 AM
Tim,
I have heard other problems with the posts, I am using EarthLink mail
page online, is there something else I should do? I would hate to think
my incredibly valuable and informative posts are being for naught!! :)
And your #1 on my hit list to visit at OSH, maybe we can have a James
McClow memory flashback with all the people who he was near and dear to.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Message Posting & Oshkosh
John W. Cox wrote:
>
>Seconding the motion for the James McClow Educational Center. I miss
>the guy. Look forward to seeing all of you.
>
>John - $00.02
>
I tried to find him because he also sold air conditioning units .... and
was looking to see what I'd need in my shop. What I got from googling
was a lot of negative press. Has anyone kept in touch???
Linn ..... trimming per Matt!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Dumb question (another)
OK I'm going to expose my ignorance yet one more time. I'm still
planning my electrical/panel installation and I recall seeing pictures
of some device that I believe was a part of the electrical system that
was encased in plastic and mounted on the firewall/sub-panel (sorry
that's as descriptive as I can recall) I can't recall what the device's
function was or what it was called, but somewhere in the crevesases of
my mind, I filled a 'I need one of those' and now that I'm into the
planning/ordering, I have this uneasy feling that I'm missing something.
Can someone help me out?
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Dumb question (another)
ANL current-limiting device (a.k.a. big-a** fuse). These look like
"blades" and can be held in an open holder, or a plastic enclosed
holder. Car stereo outfits sell all kinds of cool plastic enclosures,
or B&C sells the basic open holder. Under the cowl, I'd go with the
enclosed holder. (or you could build an aluminum enclosure if you were
so inclined.)
TDT
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:31 PM
OK I'm going to expose my ignorance yet one more time. I'm still
planning my electrical/panel installation and I recall seeing pictures
of some device that I believe was a part of the electrical system that
was encased in plastic and mounted on the firewall/sub-panel (sorry
that's as descriptive as I can recall) I can't recall what the device's
function was or what it was called, but somewhere in the crevesases of
my mind, I filled a 'I need one of those' and now that I'm into the
planning/ordering, I have this uneasy feling that I'm missing something.
Can someone help me out?
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Albert Gardner" <ibspud(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Wiring
It appears that there is only one hole in the bulkhead (for the rear spar)
on each side for wires to pass for and aft. Is this adequate? Has anyone had
to make provisions for additional wires? What did you do?
Albert Gardner
40-422
Yuma, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Dumb question (another)
Great!
Where are they used? What determined whether or not they are needed?
THANKS
Deems
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>
>
>ANL current-limiting device (a.k.a. big-a** fuse). These look like
>"blades" and can be held in an open holder, or a plastic enclosed
>holder. Car stereo outfits sell all kinds of cool plastic enclosures,
>or B&C sells the basic open holder. Under the cowl, I'd go with the
>enclosed holder. (or you could build an aluminum enclosure if you were
>so inclined.)
>
>TDT
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Dumb question (another)
Never mind, I found the answer in My Aero Electric manual
Deems Davis wrote:
>
> Great!
>
> Where are they used? What determined whether or not they are needed?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Benua <danbenua(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
I installed fancy flush static ports in my RV-6A, and
they worked fine until it started raining. As water
droplets ran along the fuselage in flight, they wicked
into the static port holes and caused dramatic (~200')
altimeter and VSI gyrations. Since I was on an IMC
approach at the time, I felt that a fix was needed.
I solved it by drilling out the hole in each static
port, installing an LP4-3 pop rivet, and driving out
the mandrel; just like Van's suggested. The head of
the pop-rivet protruding above the skin surface is
just enough to keep the water drops away from the vent
hole.
On my RV-10 (not yet flying) I chose a compromise
solution. I installed the pop-rivet static port as
per plans, but on the inside of the tailcone behind
each port I riveted fuel tank drain flanges (available
from Van's). This allows for the installation of
threaded fittings (Nylo-Seal 269-N 04x02) that
transition to poly tubing (Poly-Flow 44-P). This
solution gives a secure connection and a proven port
profile; and a very low cost.
- Dan Benua
#40001
finish & fwf
> I have read some comments that seem to say that the
Vans static port
kit is actually very accurate in spite of being
cheap and simple.
Does anybody have any comparison with the
Aircraft Spruce and other
more sophisticated systems? I know they look way
better, but am
interested in performance.
David Maib
40559 tailcone
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Roller painting
>
> Oh boy com'on everybody knows you use a roller....the white primer takes the
alodine well though and makes for a nicer golden color that alodining first.
Actually, I did use a roller for the first coat of UV smooth prime on the cowl, ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/09-28290.php ) and found it was a great way to fill pinholes and build up the surface for sanding.
It is in fact a good white primer for fiberglas surfaces, no joke.
-Dan Masys
40448
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Roller painting
"Actually, I did use a roller for the first coat of UV smooth prime on the cowl"
You are correct sir!!! That is the best way to apply that product, after I posted
my little humorless response I remembered that product and it's application
with a roller.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Testement" <jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Electric Load analysis
Deems,
Thanks for initiating this and providing another example of a load analysis.
I have enclosed a copy of my load analysis and wire list. I have not
verified every item and would really appreciate anyone's comments or
corrections. I too am looking at the Z13 2-alternator design. I need to
credit Tim O and others for originating and refining these spreadsheets (but
I don't guarantee the loads are all correct).
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Finish kit - gear legs and wheels
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:49 PM
I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar information,
however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are some 'proven'
examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20 architecture at the
moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's overkill for me), which
includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up alternator.
I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load analysis.
I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would welcome any review
/ critique that others may offer. Just remember that I'm no Sparky either
and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be gentle with any
critique. O:-)
THANKS
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing
http://deemsrv10.com/
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Dumb question (another)
That's it
THANKS
Deems
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Deems,
>
> Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but if it's
> the thing on this page:
>
> http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/panel/20060115/index.html
>
> ...then that's my ANL fuse.
>
> Is that it?
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"W. Curtis" <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Dumb question (another)
You sure this was an ANL fuse an not an Essential Bus Diode? This is used to prevent
the drain of an Essential Bus Battery by non-essential bus devices in the
event of a main alternator or battery failure.
<http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#D221-201>
>Where are they used? What determined whether or not they are needed?
>
>THANKS
>
>Deems
>
>Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>ANL current-limiting device (a.k.a. big-a** fuse). These look like
>>"blades" and can be held in an open holder, or a plastic enclosed
>>holder.
William
40237 - SB Fuselage
http://nerv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
---- "bob.kaufmann" wrote:
>
> Actually the real truth is I have been known to fly with the shiny side down
> and some people don't like looking down to see up or visa versa. Its only a
> momentary thing and lots of fun. Kind of like cloud dancing.
Spent my most recent BFR in the -7A with a CFI who is also a pro airshow pilot.
Since I was IFR current, he said 'let's just do some stick and rudder flying'
and we spent most of the hour aloft polishing the fine technique for aileron
rolls. I already know I'm gonna miss that a little when the -10 eventually takes
the place of the -7. Shiny side down for a bit is way fun. Are we sure
you can't roll a -10? Aileron and barrel rolls are both 1G manuvers...
Just kidding (I think ;-) )
-Dan Masys
40448
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
"Are we sure you can't roll a -10? Aileron and barrel rolls are both 1G
manuvers...
Just kidding (I think ;-) )
-Dan Masys
40448"
Oh boy, you had to go start this debate again. Anyone who knew James McClow
heard this one to. I think the -10 will fly fine in an aileron roll. But
only if it's primed with a good rolled-on coat of Glidden. Would be better
though if it was a taildragger...
John
(ducking and taking cover)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 18, 2006
Subject:
Re: Static Ports
On 7/18/06 1046AM Michael Schipper wrote:
On my -9A I installed the Static kit from SafeAir1 and I am glad I did.
I used the SafeAir1 pitot static kit as well. Very easy to install and
a real time saver. All the normal fittings are included in the kit and
so far all of the necessary conversion couplings to go from aluminum to
SafeAir and from SafeAir lines to various components are available.
With all the new avionics people are using there are more and more pitot
static drops required I.E. AOA, TruTrak ADI, encoder, stby instruments,
AHARS, etc. I "stacked" the T drop fittings on top of each other on a
longer screw attached to the bottom flange of the subpanel. This
created a compact pitot and stactic "manifold" for the various required
"drops."
Dick Sipp
40065 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Chris , Susie Darcy" <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh
Dont forget guys to keep a look out for new stuff that you can share with
all of us overseas and those not going.....hope to hear some reports.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Re: Message Posting & Oshkosh
So the RV 10 folks will get together each day at 10 a.m. at the Van's tent?
My younger son Ben had decided to tag along so that he can see the 10...the
MO is growing in the Scott family...
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Source for Freeflight WAAS GPS
Does anyone have a source for the FreeFlight WAAS GPS sensor?
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh
We will make sure that those not attending are kept current. If there's something
REALLY exciting I'll post a digital picture, along with one of RV-10 HQ later
today so you know what to look for.
It's really amazing how many people are already here setting up at Camp Scholler!
Bob #40105
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48539#48539
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
The Final OSH countdown begins - Long, but sweet
Let's see. 4 5' chain sections. (check) Wrist and ankle bracelets
(check). 4 5/8" eyebolts (check). Drill and bit for mounting eyebolts to
studs (check). Keys to bracelets out of reach (check). Sufficient water to
last through OSH (check). Arranged with 2 independent friends to come
unlock me when OSH is over, one as a backup (check). Computer within reach
(check).
OK, I'm ready! Chain me to the mast, mates.
Guys and Gals, have one heck of a great time! I'll be looking for
(hopefully, daily) reports of the doings, especially the evening get
togethers. JC, you better bring back some interesting pics and tall tales!
(My plan is to meet everyone next year, so plan on coming back at least one
more time.)
John Jessen
~328 (taking the OSH week to build like a maniac, if I can get the dog to
bring me the keys)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 10:02 PM
Well, we made it down to the last few days before OSH. Many good things are
in the works, and from the chatter on the list you can tell people are
getting a bit giddy with excitement. Yes, I mean you guys from Las Vegas
especially. ;)
So far, there are roughly 157 people on the RV-10 OSH list.
27 of those are people who were on the list last year but didn't send in
anything this year. Some may be flying (in fact, I know at least one is)
34 of them are people who can't make it to the show this
year and who will be dying for us to take photos. That leaves
just under 100 RV-10 builders on the list confirmed as going to OSH.
Of those 96, there are 8 of them who will be there with an RV-10,
and in Jesse's case, a possibility of bringing a pair. That's
pretty good for an impromptu list....about 1/4 of the 610 kits out there are
accounted for in this list.
________________________________________________________________________________
Now we know what Michael Sausen has for a pinup poster in his workshop.
Looks great.
Dr Fred
40515.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
It looks like we've got one empty slot available adjacent to Tim, Gary and I at
Camp Scholler. As soon as security starts getting serious (Saturday?) it's highly
likely that we won't be able to hold it. Let me know ASAP via my cell phone
if you want this slot so we can work it out. My phone number is on Tim's
list of attendees.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48635#48635
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
Security is now serious - there is now an empty and unmarked slot next to Gary.
As you might guess it won't last long.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48638#48638
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
Security is now serious - there is now an empty and unmarked slot next to Gary.
As you might guess it won't last long.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48639#48639
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh
Bob,
Nice to see you made it to Oshkosh on time.........LOL. What was the f
astest route getting there from Omaha? Any room in the motorhome for co
ld beer when we get there? See you weds!
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Bob,
Nice to see you made it to Oshkosh on time.........LOL. W
hat was the fastest route getting there from Omaha? Any room in th
e motorhome for cold beer when we get there? See you weds!
Dean
40449
______________________
__________________________________________________
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: See it at OSH
WOW..........think that is enough power to get that -10 in the air? :)
That kind of HP will get you confused with Spaceship One taking off
.
Dean
getting giddy for Oshkosh and all the TALL Tales that will be told there
.
________________________________________________________________________
WOW..........think that is enough power to get that -10 in the
air? :) That kind of HP will get you
confused with Spaceship One taking off.
Dean
getting giddy for Oshkosh and all the TALL Tales that will be told th
ere.
______________________
__________________________________________________
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 19, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh
I-80 ti Iowa City, up to Cedar Rapids on I-380, then Hwy 151 to Madison and 41
from there to OSH. Don't recall the exact bypass but we skipped around downtown
Madison.
I'm sure there will be room for beer as soon as the current stockpile is depleted.
I will however manage that situation as closely as fuel in an airplane.
Gary arrived this afternoon and also seems to have room and supplies...
When are you coming?
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed Jul 19 17:57:31 2006
Bob,
Nice to see you made it to Oshkosh on time.........LOL. What was the fastest
route getting there from Omaha? Any room in the motorhome for cold beer when
we get there? See you weds!
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Re: The Final OSH countdown begins - Long, but sweet
Went on the site looking for the banquet tickets...they are sold out...hope
to snag 2 at the booth...
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
Can you repost the coordinates so we can all find you? I am stocking up
at the FDL Walmart for refreshments as I post this.
John Cox
________________________________
Sent: Wed 7/19/2006 7:55 PM
Camping slot is now spoken for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48745#48745
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________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
short version is 4-8 slots south of Linbergh at 57th, on the west side (between
57th and the trees). We now have signage too!
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu Jul 20 09:01:17 2006
Can you repost the coordinates so we can all find you? I am stocking up at the
FDL Walmart for refreshments as I post this.
John Cox
________________________________
Sent: Wed 7/19/2006 7:55 PM
Camping slot is now spoken for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48745#48745
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"orchidman" <gary(at)wingscc.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
Are 'shot spots' legally open and available at OSH? Free :D or Fee :( ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48861#48861
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh
I have been reading all posts over the past couple of weeks and only
wish I to were able to experience the thrill of Oshkosh this year.
Finances don't permit at this point so I am hoping next year things may
be different and allow me to make the flight to the U.S.
I sincerely hope all from the list have a super time at this great
event.
Be sure to post photos of any new products relating to the 10.
Fly safely.
Paul Walter
Horsham, Victoria
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 20, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Camping Slot Available
Found the site today and updated your registration card to reflect
location with the information desk... Great Signage by the way!. Did
not mention either the Portapotties, trolleys or magestic oak trees.
Nice Site Bob!
I am now over in Manitowok (KMTW) to stage warbirds for the Sunday
arrival. Will see you this weekend at 10AM or 2PM as Tim has posted.
Lots of workers setting barriers, manning check points, watering flowers
and trimming grass.... all that is missing is you Lurkers. Be Here or
Be Square.
John Cox - KUAO
short version is 4-8 slots south of Linbergh at 57th, on the west side
(between 57th and the trees). We now have signage too!
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu Jul 20 09:01:17 2006
Can you repost the coordinates so we can all find you? I am stocking up
at the FDL Walmart for refreshments as I post this.
John Cox
________________________________
Sent: Wed 7/19/2006 7:55 PM
Camping slot is now spoken for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48745#48745
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH arrival
---- "John W. Cox" wrote:
> Lots of workers setting barriers, manning check points, watering flowers and
trimming grass.... all that is missing is you Lurkers. Be Here or Be Square.
>
Speaking of getting there, anybody know how late OSH will accept arrivals this
evening? Looks like the NOTAM procedures don't go live till 6:00 am tomorrow,
and rather than filing IFR tomorrow morning through some slop in KY and IL, I
could probably get there VFR from TN later today.
-Dan Masys
RV-7A N747DL going to OSH
RV-10 N104LD a building in the shop
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH arrival
Don't know for sure but we did hear arrivals last night around 9:30-10:00.
All - feel free to stop by, we've got plenty of beverages on ice, chairs and shade!
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 21 06:18:13 2006
---- "John W. Cox" wrote:
> Lots of workers setting barriers, manning check points, watering flowers and
trimming grass.... all that is missing is you Lurkers. Be Here or Be Square.
>
Speaking of getting there, anybody know how late OSH will accept arrivals this
evening? Looks like the NOTAM procedures don't go live till 6:00 am tomorrow,
and rather than filing IFR tomorrow morning through some slop in KY and IL, I
could probably get there VFR from TN later today.
-Dan Masys
RV-7A N747DL going to OSH
RV-10 N104LD a building in the shop
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Eric_Kallio" <scout019(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Tail strobe light installation
When fitting the lower rudder fairing, with the tail strobe installed, where have
most of you run the wire through the Aft bulkheads of the tailcone? Didn't
know if any of the later plan sections tell you where, or if any of the engineers
out there figured where the least stress on the structure would be to drill
the hole. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
518 Empennage fairings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49014#49014
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH arrival
Sorry, no webcam but here are a couple of still shots. First one is of our our
sites. From right to left: my motorhome, Tim's site with a canopy set up for
additional shade, and Gary's motorhome with Gary in front of it. We would have
shown a mountain of beer cans but it's not even 10:00 AM yet...
Second shot is our sign at the intersection of Lindbergh and 57th.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49019#49019
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_02_192.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_01_139.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Tail strobe light installation
If you pull up the Wiring Harness instructions from Tim's secure Builder's
page, they say to drill the hole right below the bottom hinge bracket, right
through the top of the tie-down support, if I am not mistaken. That's where
we did it and it seems to work great.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric_Kallio
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 10:19 AM
When fitting the lower rudder fairing, with the tail strobe installed, where
have most of you run the wire through the Aft bulkheads of the tailcone?
Didn't know if any of the later plan sections tell you where, or if any of
the engineers out there figured where the least stress on the structure
would be to drill the hole. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
518 Empennage fairings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49014#49014
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tail strobe light installation
Eric,
I emailed the wiring harness instructions directly to you instead of posting the
file. It shows where and how to do the tail strobe.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Subaru for the RV-10
Guys going to OSH:
If someone could pick up any information on the Egg Subaru engine
for the RV-10 and scan/email/whatever it to me I'd greatly appreciate
it. If there are pictures that can be taken of it, please send them to me!
I am just in the information gathering mode right now. It'll be
about 2 years before I'm ready to get an engine. Please, no flames about
non-lycomings.
-Jim 40384, Just finished flaps, Work prevents me from going to OSH. :(
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Tail strobe light installation
I read something that I believe was from Van's that they drill the hole off
of centerline so you'd miss the aft tiedown. This way if you ever have to
get back inside the aft tailcone you don't have to drill the tiedown out as
well to replace parts.
Rob
#392
QB Wings
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric_Kallio
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 9:19 AM
When fitting the lower rudder fairing, with the tail strobe installed, where
have most of you run the wire through the Aft bulkheads of the tailcone?
Didn't know if any of the later plan sections tell you where, or if any of
the engineers out there figured where the least stress on the structure
would be to drill the hole. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
518 Empennage fairings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49014#49014
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Inspection completed!
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
40Hrs & Numbers
Congratulations Jesse. Scott Schmidt can tell you the work involved in
those last 100 hours. It will be a highlight of OSH '06 to see all of
your hard work in person.
John Cox
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Sean Blair" <seanblair(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 21, 2006
Subject:
Grommets
I'm working on the fuselage side skins and it says to enlarge the wire run
hole to the wings and install grommets that can be purchased from Van's, but
are not included in the kit. This is section 29-15.
Can anyone make a recommendation what size hole and grommet part number
works for this? I plan on installing Duckworks, Archers, LED indicators,
strobes, etc. Basically the works. Do I run all electrical, coax, pitot,
etc. through this hole?
Thanks and have fun in OSH everyone.
Sean Blair
#40225
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/22/06
As of yesterday afternoon there were 2 completed RV-10s here - Vic Syracuse's and
TruTrak's. Photo attached. Ken Forsythe also stopped by to say hi.
I'll try to get a picture posted each day for those that aren't going to make it
this year.
Bob #40105
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49290#49290
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10s_661.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
sketch2006(at)comcast.net
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
Re: RV-10 Kits
Good Afternoon Lyle,
A couple of questions regarding your subject posting:
1. What is the labor worth (how much time has been spent assembling it so far)?
2. How much do you want for one of the RV-10 kits?
3. Is is worth me buying/renting a large trailer (& travelling to your site and
picking the kit up) or just have it shipped via truck/rail?
4. Will I still qualify for the 51% rule if I purchase a partially assembled RV
from you?
5. I presume that I could still obtain a repairmans certificate upon completion?
6. What paperwork comes with the sale?
7. What about taxes, I presume that there would be none, true?
8. Are there any restrictions with selecting an engine?
Appreciate your time,
Jim
-------------- Original message --------------
Chapter 237 in Minneapolis has RV-10 kits for sale. They include the empennage
which has been assembled, the Quick Build wing and fuselage kits. The latter
are still in the crates as shipped from Vans. An EAA Technical Counselor and
a two time RV builder pronounce the workmanship excellent on the tail feathers.
Contact below or atirburgess at msn.com for more information.
Lyle Peterson
lyleap at comcast.net
651-653-2063
Good Afternoon Lyle,
A couple of questions regarding your subject posting:
1. What is the labor worth (how much time has been spent assembling
it so far)?
2. How much do you want for one of the RV-10 kits?
3. Is is worth me buying/renting a large trailer (& travelling to
your site and picking the kit up) or just have it shipped via truck/rail?
4. Will I still qualify for the 51% rule if I purchase a partially assembled
RV from you?
5. I presume that I could still obtain a repairmans certificate upon
completion?
6. What paperwork comes with the sale?
7. What about taxes, I presume that there would be none, true?
8. Are there any restrictions with selecting an engine?
Appreciate your time,
Jim
Chapter 237 in Minneapolis has RV-10 kits for sale.They include the empennage which has
been assembled, the Quick Build wing and fuselage kits.The latter are still in the crates as shipped from Vans.An EAA
Technical Counselor and a two time RV builder pronounce
the workmanship excellent on the tail feathers.Contact below
or atirburgess at msn.com for more information.
For those with flying RV10 that are going to Oshkosh if you are having
problems with tunnel heat can you bring it up at the forum please.
And those that are flying are you have serious issues with the
heat......theres been a lot of talk but just need the facts please ...yes no
fixed??
regards Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Just chatted at some length with Vic Syracuse about this here at OSH, and he for
sure has it fixed.
-Dan Masys
40448
---- "Chris wrote:
>
> For those with flying RV10 that are going to Oshkosh if you are having
> problems with tunnel heat can you bring it up at the forum please.
>
> And those that are flying are you have serious issues with the
> heat......theres been a lot of talk but just need the facts please ...yes no
> fixed??
>
> regards Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Chamberlain" <10flyer(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Chris, I have a flying 10 with 100hrs on it. I had no heat problems during
the winter but have had plenty during the hotter months in SoCal. I have
insulated the inside firewall and tunnel areas, firesleeved my tunnel fuel
lines, disconnected the heat box scat tubes (and run them overboard), and
extended my exhaust pipe( I have the original exhaust). None of these have
solved the problem. When I am done flying, the entire circumference of the
aircraft adjacent to the firewall is so hot you cannot touch the exterior. I
also believe I am experiencing more than the "normal" injected engine fuel
vapor problems that are sometimes present with hot engines. If you haven't
already, go on the Doug Reeves RV website and look at the forum threads for
the 10 and you will find talk relating to the tunnel heat issue. One guy
claims to have fixed the problem and goes on to explain how he did it by
insulating the belly on the outside as well as insulating the forward side
of the firewall. Although I believe his theory is absolutely correct
regarding the origination of the heat, I disagree that this is the final
solution. You can do several things to alleviate the problem, but in my
opinion the heat from the engine should not be that bad to begin with. In
other words, you can resolve the tunnel heat issue, but it seems to me that
there are factors ( maybe cowl design) that are not allowing the heat to
escape the cowl area, thereby heating up the stainless steel firewall. I
haven't seen any other RV models that have had to go to this length to keep
heat off the firewall. Even though other RV's don't have tunnels, i'm sure
if there was a lot of heat buildup on the other models, they would be
complaining. Makes me wonder why the 10 is the only model with the vents
under the cowl!! I am not an engineer, but it seems to me that the cowl
needs some sort of modification to get the proper press differential from
inlet to outlet that will help evacuate the engine heat better. Sorry to
ramble, hope this helps. I do believe the ball is in Vans'
court....especially with 600 kits sold. Mark (N104ML)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Chris , Susie Darcy" <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com>
Date:
Jul 23, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Please do tell?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 8:15 AM
>
> Just chatted at some length with Vic Syracuse about this here at OSH, and
> he for sure has it fixed.
>
> -Dan Masys
> 40448
>
> ---- "Chris wrote:
>>
>>
>> For those with flying RV10 that are going to Oshkosh if you are having
>> problems with tunnel heat can you bring it up at the forum please.
>>
>> And those that are flying are you have serious issues with the
>> heat......theres been a lot of talk but just need the facts please ...yes
>> no
>> fixed??
>>
>> regards Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Chris , Susie Darcy" <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com>
Date:
Jul 23, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Yes Mark I agree with you and I have seen and replied on Dougs site....I was
going to put a blanket on engine side of firewall but do not want to put
anything on the belly...so agree partial fix. I cant seem to find anything
over here so will probably have to import something like Kool-mat or the
like.
Chris
Australia
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 8:29 AM
>
> Chris, I have a flying 10 with 100hrs on it. I had no heat problems during
> the winter but have had plenty during the hotter months in SoCal. I have
> insulated the inside firewall and tunnel areas, firesleeved my tunnel fuel
> lines, disconnected the heat box scat tubes (and run them overboard), and
> extended my exhaust pipe( I have the original exhaust). None of these have
> solved the problem. When I am done flying, the entire circumference of the
> aircraft adjacent to the firewall is so hot you cannot touch the exterior.
> I also believe I am experiencing more than the "normal" injected engine
> fuel vapor problems that are sometimes present with hot engines. If you
> haven't already, go on the Doug Reeves RV website and look at the forum
> threads for the 10 and you will find talk relating to the tunnel heat
> issue. One guy claims to have fixed the problem and goes on to explain how
> he did it by insulating the belly on the outside as well as insulating the
> forward side of the firewall. Although I believe his theory is absolutely
> correct regarding the origination of the heat, I disagree that this is the
> final solution. You can do several things to alleviate the problem, but in
> my opinion the heat from the engine should not be that bad to begin with.
> In other words, you can resolve the tunnel heat issue, but it seems to me
> that there are factors ( maybe cowl design) that are not allowing the heat
> to escape the cowl area, thereby heating up the stainless steel firewall.
> I haven't seen any other RV models that have had to go to this length to
> keep heat off the firewall. Even though other RV's don't have tunnels, i'm
> sure if there was a lot of heat buildup on the other models, they would be
> complaining. Makes me wonder why the 10 is the only model with the vents
> under the cowl!! I am not an engineer, but it seems to me that the cowl
> needs some sort of modification to get the proper press differential from
> inlet to outlet that will help evacuate the engine heat better. Sorry to
> ramble, hope this helps. I do believe the ball is in Vans'
> court....especially with 600 kits sold. Mark (N104ML)
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Sean Blair" <seanblair(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
OshKosh __Tunnel heat
I ordered 3/4 inch Super Soundproofing for the front flooring. I haven't
installed it yet. One recommendation from the vendor was to place sheets of
Reynolds Aluminum down first before the soundproofing to help with the heat
aspects. Has anyone done this? What did you use for adhesion?
Thanks again,
Sean Blair
#40225
Yes Mark I agree with you and I have seen and replied on Dougs site....I was
going to put a blanket on engine side of firewall but do not want to put
anything on the belly...so agree partial fix. I cant seem to find anything
over here so will probably have to import something like Kool-mat or the
like.
Chris
Australia
>
> Chris, I have a flying 10 with 100hrs on it. I had no heat problems during
> the winter but have had plenty during the hotter months in SoCal. I have
> insulated the inside firewall and tunnel areas, firesleeved my tunnel fuel
> lines, disconnected the heat box scat tubes (and run them overboard), and
> extended my exhaust pipe( I have the original exhaust). None of these have
> solved the problem. When I am done flying, the entire circumference of the
> aircraft adjacent to the firewall is so hot you cannot touch the exterior.
> I also believe I am experiencing more than the "normal" injected engine
> fuel vapor problems that are sometimes present with hot engines. If you
> haven't already, go on the Doug Reeves RV website and look at the forum
> threads for the 10 and you will find talk relating to the tunnel heat
> issue. One guy claims to have fixed the problem and goes on to explain how
> he did it by insulating the belly on the outside as well as insulating the
> forward side of the firewall. Although I believe his theory is absolutely
> correct regarding the origination of the heat, I disagree that this is the
> final solution. You can do several things to alleviate the problem, but in
> my opinion the heat from the engine should not be that bad to begin with.
> In other words, you can resolve the tunnel heat issue, but it seems to me
> that there are factors ( maybe cowl design) that are not allowing the heat
> to escape the cowl area, thereby heating up the stainless steel firewall.
> I haven't seen any other RV models that have had to go to this length to
> keep heat off the firewall. Even though other RV's don't have tunnels, i'm
> sure if there was a lot of heat buildup on the other models, they would be
> complaining. Makes me wonder why the 10 is the only model with the vents
> under the cowl!! I am not an engineer, but it seems to me that the cowl
> needs some sort of modification to get the proper press differential from
> inlet to outlet that will help evacuate the engine heat better. Sorry to
> ramble, hope this helps. I do believe the ball is in Vans'
> court....especially with 600 kits sold. Mark (N104ML)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
N410MR First Flight
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Are any RV-10's flying with the Sam James cowling, and if so, are
they having hot tunnel problems?
David Maib
Eagan, MN #40559
On Jul 22, 2006, at 5:29 PM, Mark Chamberlain wrote:
<10flyer(at)verizon.net>
Chris, I have a flying 10 with 100hrs on it. I had no heat problems
during the winter but have had plenty during the hotter months in
SoCal. I have insulated the inside firewall and tunnel areas,
firesleeved my tunnel fuel lines, disconnected the heat box scat
tubes (and run them overboard), and extended my exhaust pipe( I have
the original exhaust). None of these have solved the problem. When I
am done flying, the entire circumference of the aircraft adjacent to
the firewall is so hot you cannot touch the exterior. I also believe
I am experiencing more than the "normal" injected engine fuel vapor
problems that are sometimes present with hot engines. If you haven't
already, go on the Doug Reeves RV website and look at the forum
threads for the 10 and you will find talk relating to the tunnel heat
issue. One guy claims to have fixed the problem and goes on to
explain how he did it by insulating the belly on the outside as well
as insulating the forward side of the firewall. Although I believe
his theory is absolutely correct regarding the origination of the
heat, I disagree that this is the final solution. You can do several
things to alleviate the problem, but in my opinion the heat from the
engine should not be that bad to begin with. In other words, you can
resolve the tunnel heat issue, but it seems to me that there are
factors ( maybe cowl design) that are not allowing the heat to escape
the cowl area, thereby heating up the stainless steel firewall. I
haven't seen any other RV models that have had to go to this length
to keep heat off the firewall. Even though other RV's don't have
tunnels, i'm sure if there was a lot of heat buildup on the other
models, they would be complaining. Makes me wonder why the 10 is the
only model with the vents under the cowl!! I am not an engineer, but
it seems to me that the cowl needs some sort of modification to get
the proper press differential from inlet to outlet that will help
evacuate the engine heat better. Sorry to ramble, hope this helps. I
do believe the ball is in Vans' court....especially with 600 kits
sold. Mark (N104ML)
www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
wiki.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Chamberlain" <10flyer(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
Re: OshKosh __Tunnel heat
Hey Sean, I used 3/8 inch supersoundproof under my front/ back floors and
sidewalls. Attached it with sticky stuff adhesive spray from Spruce. The
front floor area has remained cool with that, but probably because of the
extra layer of sheet metal that your feet rest on. Not so effective in the
tunnel area. Mark.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Date:
Jul 22, 2006
Subject:
RV-10 Builders Map
Needless to say, I hope everyone has a good time at OSH. Someone related
the trip to the day before xmas. Well, I feel like that (jewish,
buddhist, atheist) kid without a tree or presents! Anyway, I hope to be
there next year, for my first visit!
After seeing Tim's OSH list, I was curious to see what the locations
would look like on a map. To see the map, go to
http://www.jline.com/tech/google/maps/rv10map.rhtml
All data was obtained from the public OSH list, so there should not be
any surprises. Only 129 or so of the 185 I culled from the list, had
decipherable locations. A few builders from Europe also appeared on the
map.
Jae
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 23, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/23/06
Activity is picking up here. Michael Saussen stopped by to chat, a few folks with
another RV-10 interior option dropped off some brochures and a 3rd RV-10 is
here. This one is John Quint's, built by John Nyes.
Also a correction to yesterday's post - the RV-10 identified as TruTrak's is actually
Alex De Dominicis'.
One of the interesting things that's happened is Garmin's ad on the back of the
program. It announces a new product - the G600 which is touted as a retrofit
type of EFIS so I assume it's available to the homebuilt crowd. Photo makes
it look like a miniature G1000 and the ad refers you to their website for more
info... Looks like there was a minor coordination issue, website as of yesterday
had to mention of it. Photo of the ad is attached and we'll get more info
tomorrow. File size might be a bit large but I didn't want to sacrifice the
readability of the text.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49398#49398
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/g600_688.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/n9826s_211.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date:
Jul 23, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/23/06
Bob,
I'll be coming in before noon most likely. Will see you guys
shortly. Pass it on to Gary and John if you see them.
I'll probably not check my email between now and Wed. so
if anyone tries to get a hold of me, try the cell.
Will catch up with everyone a little mid-week, and then
fully after OSH. See everyone there! Glad to see they're
showing up.
Tim
bcondrey wrote:
>
>
> Activity is picking up here. Michael Saussen stopped by to chat, a
> few folks with another RV-10 interior option dropped off some
> brochures and a 3rd RV-10 is here. This one is John Quint's, built
> by John Nyes.
>
> Also a correction to yesterday's post - the RV-10 identified as
> TruTrak's is actually Alex De Dominicis'.
>
> One of the interesting things that's happened is Garmin's ad on the
> back of the program. It announces a new product - the G600 which is
> touted as a retrofit type of EFIS so I assume it's available to the
> homebuilt crowd. Photo makes it look like a miniature G1000 and the
> ad refers you to their website for more info... Looks like there was
> a minor coordination issue, website as of yesterday had to mention of
> it. Photo of the ad is attached and we'll get more info tomorrow.
> File size might be a bit large but I didn't want to sacrifice the
> readability of the text.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49398#49398
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/g600_688.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n9826s_211.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
<jim(at)CombsFive.Com>
Date:
Jul 23, 2006
Subject:
Re: Starter Problem - update
Marcus,
It's hard to tell but the gear pitch does not look the same.
I went to the Skytech Web site and found a PDF showing the correct starter for
a given engine.
http://www.skytecair.com/Fit_Guide.htm
You might check this out.
Jim Combs
N312F
#40192
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 24, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/23/06
The BIG and HIGH PRICE update from Garmin is as follows:
The Shakeup Continues: Garmin Announces G900X For Experimentals
Garmin Casting Its Net A LOT Wider
Continuing its major product announcements Sunday at AirVenture 2006, Garmin
filled ANN in on its new G900X avionics suite, which will be available on a
number of leading homebuilt aircraft -- including Lancair's IV/IV-P and
ES/ES-P, and Van's RV-10, RV-9/9A, and RV-7/7A.
This is the first time Garmin has offered an all-glass panel for homebuilt
airframes.
"The G900X is a highly reliable system that dramatically increases safety of
flight and situational awareness," said Gary Kelley, Garmin's vice president
of marketing. "We are confident that our industry-leading technology and
core principles -- commitment to quality, reliability, service, and value --
will make the G900X an extremely popular avionics suite with kitplane
owners."
The G900X integrates all primary flight, navigation, communication, terrain,
traffic, surveillance, weather, and engine sensor data into two 10.4-inch,
high-definition LCDs. The color TFT displays on the G900X suite boast XGA
(1,024x768-pixel) resolution with wide viewing angles. Customized brackets
will help simplify the assembly process and allow homebuilders to install
sensitive instruments with the assurance that the Garmin G900X certified
distributor will approve the installation. The G900X distributor-supplied
installation package also includes the wiring harness and installation
drawings.
The following G900X system components will be available for Lancair and
Van's owners and builders:
a.. The primary flight display (PFD) to replace many of the traditional
cockpit instruments. The G900X presents this information in an integrated
fashion on a large-format display, and the multi-function display (MFD) puts
all aircraft-systems monitoring and flight-planning functions at the pilot's
fingertips
b.. Designed with reversionary capabilities, allowing all flight-critical
data to transfer seamlessly to a single display for added safety during
flight
c.. Solid-state Attitude and Heading Reference System (AHRS), which can
align while in motion, including in-flight dynamic restarts
d.. Digital Air Data Computer
e.. Engine-monitoring display
f.. Mode S transponder with Traffic Information Service (TIS)
g.. Dual integrated radio modules that provide WAAS-certified IFR
oceanic-approved GPS; VHF navigation with ILS; and VHF communication with
16-watt transceivers and 8.33-kHz channel spacing
h.. Digital audio control system
i.. Garmin SafeTaxi airport diagrams that help pilots navigate unfamiliar
airports
j.. Optional integrated satellite weather datalink and digital-quality
audio via XM Satellite Radio
k.. Optional remote Flight Management System (FMS) controller for
simplified waypoint, navigation, and communication tuning and selection
l.. Optional integrated Class-B Terrain Awareness and Warning System
(TAWS) with worldwide terrain and U.S. obstacle database, which does not
require and external LRU as with other TAWS systems
The G900X will be available in the first quarter of 2007 at a suggested
retail price of $66,745 through Garmin G900X qualified distributors.
AS FOR ME, I really like my "CHEAP" Grand Rapids three screen system.
Russ Daves
N710RV (DAR Special Airworthiness Certificate in Hand)
Hope to have everything back together and in the air shortly.
________________________________________________________________________________
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 24, 2006
Subject:
Re: Inspection completed!
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 24, 2006
Subject:
Inspection completed!
I received my DAR signoff yesterday. Spent today getting most of the
inspection panels put back on and hope to make first flight on
Wednesday.
Russ Daves
N710RV - RV-10
N65RV - RV-6A Sold
Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 24, 2006
Subject:
Re: Inspection completed!
C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is getting to be an almost daily occurance, perhaps before OSH is
over, we will have 50 -10's flying!?. Must feel good (will feel even
better on Wed I suspect).
Keep us informed, and motivated
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
Russell Daves wrote:
> I received my DAR signoff yesterday. Spent today getting most of the
> inspection panels put back on and hope to make first flight on Wednesday.
>
> Russ Daves
> N710RV - RV-10
> N65RV - RV-6A Sold
> Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Sean Blair" <seanblair(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 24, 2006
Subject:
Throttle quadrant
When installing the throttle quadrant, are the cables routed through the
firewall recess in the stock location? If not, where? I think I heard they
don't take the same route and of course already enlarged the stock holes per
the plans. What's the fix if necessary?
Once again...thanks!
Sean Blair
#40225
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)bellsouth.net>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Grand Rapids Wiring
I have the GRT EFIS and EIS and can't seem to brake the code on wiring the
fuel level wiring. As luck would have it, all the folks are at Oshkosh and
not available for questions.
I suspect that I need to use the 4.8V source wire but I can't find how to
employ it in the instructions. Does it just get tied to the wire going the
tank level sensor?
Also, when I ran the engine, my RPM showed 0. I have the signal wire tied
to the digital RPM signal from the Lightspeed output and the EIS Tach is set
to '0' for 6 cyl Lycoming.
If anyone has any experience with this I'd sure appreciate any and all
guidance.
Marcus
Desperately close and yet so far it seems
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/25/06
Paul Irlbeck showed up with his RV-10 making it 8 customer built examples so far.
I also attached a picture of Tim's just to have a complete picture collection.
Garmin actually introduced 2 panel mount EFIS/MFD products at the show. First
is the G900 which appears to be simply an uncertified version of the G1000 for
those that want to spend $66k. Other one is the G600 which is the picture I
posted a few days ago and is going for ~$26k. The AFS EFIS is also on display
with HSI capabilities which appears to still be in development. This is a nice
product for a reasonable price assuming they can get development wrapped up
and ship them. Finally, TruTrak's EFIS offering isn't really - they're just
doing proof of concept to check public interest.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49710#49710
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_57_118.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_56_651.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/25/06
Paul Irlbeck showed up with his RV-10 making it 8 customer built examples so far.
I also attached a picture of Tim's just to have a complete picture collection.
Garmin actually introduced 2 panel mount EFIS/MFD products at the show. First
is the G900 which appears to be simply an uncertified version of the G1000 for
those that want to spend $66k. Other one is the G600 which is the picture I
posted a few days ago and is going for ~$26k. The AFS EFIS is also on display
with HSI capabilities which appears to still be in development. This is a nice
product for a reasonable price assuming they can get development wrapped up
and ship them. Finally, TruTrak's EFIS offering isn't really - they're just
doing proof of concept to check public interest.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49711#49711
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_57_118.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_56_651.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"W. Curtis" <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/23/06
>So what's the "BIG ANNOUNCEMENT" from Van's?
Pre-punched RV-8 standard fuselage with new and improved plans ala RV-10. Supposedly,
only the empennage and the wings were pre-punched in the RV-8, now the
fuselage will also be pre-punched.
William Curtis
http://nerv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/23/06
> Announcement is that the RV-8 fuselage is now completely prepunched along
> with an update to the plans.
> Bob
YGBSM, as my Wild Weasel partner would say. Below is a direct reprint copy
from the Van's site.
Wonder how many people at OSH are looking, asking question about the
"new" -8 prepunched format compared to those drooling over the prototype
RV-12. Prepunched RV-4...maybe...but that would screw up all the HRII
builder sales Van's does. Where are photos of the RV-12 ? ? Somebody has to
have taken some. Are they taking "escrow" orders for the RV-12 yet ? ? Can
you get/fax/e-mail me an RV-12 order form ? ?
Now that would be a BIG ANNOUNCEMENT. KABONG HRII waiting for the
RV-12.
"In RV-7/8/9/10 kits, rivet and bolt holes are pre-punched into all the
parts. It is hard to overstate just how much labor and difficulty
matched-hole pre-punching saves. All part alignments, fastener spacings and
measurements are set at the factory. When the builder aligns the holes, the
parts must be in the correct position. An RV builder is assembling an
airplane, not building one from scratch."
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Oops, W-1013A bearing hole press-fit
I just got bit by this one. I was going to shout out to Tim, to have
this listed on the "gotchas" page at
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/gotchas.html. However, lo and behold, it's
already there! Double humiliation! I know I read it several times
before, but it never registered in my mind when building from the plans.
Anyway, I did get hits when searching for this issue. For future
builders, do not deburr the bearing hole in the W-1013A aileron bracket
spacer. When cleco assembling the bracket initially, leave the
BEARING-COM-3-5 out, match-drill, take apart, then press-fit the bearing
into the spacer.
Jae
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oops, W-1013A bearing hole press-fit
Aha haha ha ha!
Jae,
I feel your pain *giggle*! Really, I do... I was the one that
got bit by it and had Tim add it to the list of gotchas. :)
You'll laugh about it in time, but at that time, I was really
ticked off as well!
On my second set, I just knocked the sharp edge off the hole but
didn't deburr the inside of the hole.
-Jim 40384.
Jae Chang wrote:
>
>I just got bit by this one. I was going to shout out to Tim, to have
>this listed on the "gotchas" page at
>http://www.myrv10.com/tips/gotchas.html. However, lo and behold, it's
>already there! Double humiliation! I know I read it several times
>before, but it never registered in my mind when building from the plans.
>
>Anyway, I did get hits when searching for this issue. For future
>builders, do not deburr the bearing hole in the W-1013A aileron bracket
>spacer. When cleco assembling the bracket initially, leave the
>BEARING-COM-3-5 out, match-drill, take apart, then press-fit the bearing
>into the spacer.
>
>Jae
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Schaefer" <n142ds(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Re: Grand Rapids Wiring
Contact me off line... it's a piece of cake.
Regards,
On 7/25/06, Marcus Cooper wrote:
>
> I have the GRT EFIS and EIS and can't seem to brake the code on wiring
> the fuel level wiring. As luck would have it, all the folks are at Oshkosh
> and not available for questions.
>
>
> I suspect that I need to use the 4.8V source wire but I can't find how to
> employ it in the instructions. Does it just get tied to the wire going the
> tank level sensor?
>
>
> Also, when I ran the engine, my RPM showed 0. I have the signal wire tied
> to the digital RPM signal from the Lightspeed output and the EIS Tach is set
> to '0' for 6 cyl Lycoming.
>
>
> If anyone has any experience with this I'd sure appreciate any and all
> guidance.
>
>
> Marcus
>
> Desperately close and yet so far it seems
>
>
--
David W. Schaefer
RV-6A N142DS "Geek One"
www.n142ds.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/25/06
I appologize to all that had issues with this morning's email attachment size.
I usually do some cropping and lower the resolution, somehow I left that step
out...
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49821#49821
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Wayne Edgerton" <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net>
Date:
Jul 25, 2006
Subject:
New Hartzell blended foil prop for sale
Hello all,
I have a new Hartzell blended foil prop for the RV10 for sale. I've
changed my mind and I've decided to switch to a 3 bladed prop. Anyone
interested can contact me either by e-mail or phone.
I bought the prop from Van's for $6050 and will sell it for $5500.
Wayne Edgerton
Flower Mound, TX
home 972-539-8530
cell 817-681-6644
e-mail wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/26/06
Too many builders and visitors to name - our Camp Scholler location has turned
out to be good and very accessible both for campers and other attendees.
No new RV-10s to take pictures of but I have attached a picture of a new modular
panel. This one is all aluminum, has removable sections and choice of either
a slightly canted or straight radio stack. Picture is of a completed example
from Avionics Systems' booth but the panel is also available from Stein either
finished or unfinished. This attaches to the same mount holes as the stock
panel and eliminates the cross bar so effectively get a couple more inches vertical
height for instruments, EFIS and/or radio stack.
I also got a little hands on with the Garmin G900 as far as I can determine, it
is exactly the same as a G1000 as delivered in new Cessnas, etc. If you haven't
fallen over from sticker shock, keep in mind that the price includes the audio
panel, mode S transponder, dual nav/coms and dual WAAS GPS all very tightly
integrated. Add these up and compare to other high end systems and it's actually
somewhat competitive (with a little G premium added in). And no, I'm not
buying one.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49898#49898
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_173.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/26/06
I am enjoying the news and feedback from all the contributors at Oshkosh.
Thanks!
Kevin
(KiloPapa)
40494
Tail
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:48 AM
>
> Too many builders and visitors to name - our Camp Scholler location has
> turned out to be good and very accessible both for campers and other
> attendees.
>
> No new RV-10s to take pictures of but I have attached a picture of a new
> modular panel. This one is all aluminum, has removable sections and
> choice of either a slightly canted or straight radio stack. Picture is of
> a completed example from Avionics Systems' booth but the panel is also
> available from Stein either finished or unfinished. This attaches to the
> same mount holes as the stock panel and eliminates the cross bar so
> effectively get a couple more inches vertical height for instruments, EFIS
> and/or radio stack.
>
> I also got a little hands on with the Garmin G900 as far as I can
> determine, it is exactly the same as a G1000 as delivered in new Cessnas,
> etc. If you haven't fallen over from sticker shock, keep in mind that the
> price includes the audio panel, mode S transponder, dual nav/coms and dual
> WAAS GPS all very tightly integrated. Add these up and compare to other
> high end systems and it's actually somewhat competitive (with a little G
> premium added in). And no, I'm not buying one.
>
> Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
Slo-build fuse. gotcha
For those of us with the slo-build fuse. I've either found a gotcha or am
now openly admitting my stupidity. Look at page 26-1 for the parts I'm
about to reference and this will be make sense. I did not dimple the 3/32
holes in the F-1015A outboard seat rib before I finished construction of
this section. The plans tell you to dimple the 3/32 holes in the F-1018
outboard rear seat rib but make no mention ( here's the possible stupidity
part) of the F-1015A unless I missed it. Which means that, now that the
side skins are ready for dimpling, I have to go back and dimple these bad
boys while they are firmly riveted to the rest of the structure and the
bottom skins. Not impossible but a real PITA. Also, you will notice
nutplates on the bottom skin under the F-1015A. These will have to come off
for me to get to some of the holes in the F-1015 and to final rivet. So
here's my suggestion: dimple the 3/32 holes in the F-1015A L & R that
correspond to rivets in the side skin before you do the final assembly in
section 26 and hold off on the nutplates on the bottom skin shown on 26-7
Fig. #1 untill side skins are riveted in place. What's killing me is that I
looked at this problem when I was in this section but moved on without
addressing it. And if you find the instruction to dimple the F-1015A
somewhere in the plans please tell me where so I can have it tatooed on my
butt! John Hasbrouck # 40264 Wishing I was in OSH!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Cowl
Just wondering if any of the after market exhibits have on display nose
cowling for the Rv 10. Or indeed variation options to the composite
cabin and door structure.
Have a good time guys
Paul Walter
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
Re: Cowl
Nothing at all. Sam James is here doing his normal Fiberglass 101 sessions in
the forums but no booth space. Nothing that I've seen from anybody else either.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50070#50070
________________________________________________________________________________
I walked by the Eggenfellner booth and the only thing in it was the 2 seat RV with
a Subie installed. There was no static display of their FWF package as in
years past and nothing at all about something for the RV-10. I did not go talk
with them but there were certainly not doing anything to attract anybody.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50069#50069
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/27/06
Not a lot new today but here's my impression of the show so far:
Avionics: The intro of the G600 and G900 is definitely the highlight of the show,
especially since Garmin didn't prep the vendors very well for questions. Good
thing they aren't going to be available until 2007.
Lycoming type engines: Not as much 540 material or displays as last year for some
reason. Most vendors have the same displays they always have. I did not that
Aerosport didn't even have a 540 in their booth. Barratt has Mike Sausen's
on display (very nice).
"Other" engines: Very much toned down from prior years. Eggenfellner only has
their demo plane in their booth - not even the static display of the engine that
they've had in prior years. No hint of anything at all targeted at the RV-10
crowd. I didn't go into their booth but didn't see any brochures, signage,
etc. Deltahawk is a replay of the last several years. Innodyne is almost non-existant.
Mistral has a similar display to prior years but I haven't stopped
in yet. I haven't seen any of the other engine folks but haven't covered the
entire grounds yet either.
New planes: RV-12 is getting a lot of curiosity but since it's with the other Van's
models and not anywhere close to the other LSAs it's hard to say if it's
real interest. I haven't been to the LSA area yet. Honda announced some sort
of alliance with Piper to produce their VLJ.
Picture of the day is the Camp Scholler entrance into AirVenture from Wednesday
morning.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50080#50080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_60_367.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Date:
Jul 26, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/27/06
BTW. Thanks so much for the updates. I must admit I keep scanning my
inbox, looking for more information, either pictures or summaries like
below. It's great to have you there, and the rest of the crowd. I'd
request more pictures, if you have the opportunity, but the verbal summaries
are very welcome, indeed. I know folks come and go, but if possible, I
request a group picture of the RV-10 builders. Maybe there will be a time
when most are in attendance. Be nice to gather them all together a take
some shots.
How is Rob Hickman's booth doing?
John J.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:48 PM
Not a lot new today but here's my impression of the show so far:
Avionics: The intro of the G600 and G900 is definitely the highlight of the
show, especially since Garmin didn't prep the vendors very well for
questions. Good thing they aren't going to be available until 2007.
Lycoming type engines: Not as much 540 material or displays as last year for
some reason. Most vendors have the same displays they always have. I did
not that Aerosport didn't even have a 540 in their booth. Barratt has Mike
Sausen's on display (very nice).
"Other" engines: Very much toned down from prior years. Eggenfellner only
has their demo plane in their booth - not even the static display of the
engine that they've had in prior years. No hint of anything at all targeted
at the RV-10 crowd. I didn't go into their booth but didn't see any
brochures, signage, etc. Deltahawk is a replay of the last several years.
Innodyne is almost non-existant. Mistral has a similar display to prior
years but I haven't stopped in yet. I haven't seen any of the other engine
folks but haven't covered the entire grounds yet either.
New planes: RV-12 is getting a lot of curiosity but since it's with the
other Van's models and not anywhere close to the other LSAs it's hard to say
if it's real interest. I haven't been to the LSA area yet. Honda announced
some sort of alliance with Piper to produce their VLJ.
Picture of the day is the Camp Scholler entrance into AirVenture from
Wednesday morning.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50080#50080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_60_367.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Engine sites
Thanks for your update - Bob.
Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or turbine.
Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at all?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:16 PM
>
> I walked by the Eggenfellner booth and the only thing in it was the 2 seat
> RV with a Subie installed. There was no static display of their FWF
> package as in years past and nothing at all about something for the RV-10.
> I did not go talk with them but there were certainly not doing anything to
> attract anybody.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50069#50069
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
LessDragProd(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Re: MT at OSH
MT has a 10% discount for orders placed at Oshkosh.
List price - $9,380. Oshkosh discount price - $8,442. (Plus shipping.)
Van's Aircraft price - $8,060. (shipped to the closed assembly facility.)
Less Drag Products, Inc. group buy price - $7,500
(Plus Option A: Shipped disassembled to the closest assembly facility, or
Plus Option B: Shipped assembled to the closest international airport.)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
If you object to this kind of SPAM, then you aren't listening to your
wallet. :-)
In a message dated 7/23/2006 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wayne.e(at)grandecom.net writes:
I am giving strong consideration to switching from the Hartzell 2 bladed
blended foil prop to the 3 bladed MT Prop. If there is any RV10 people at OSH
checking their e-mails and you happen to go past the MT booth could you please
see if they are having any show specials? Also if there is anyone that might
be interested in buying a new Hartzell Blended Foil prop let me know. I live
near Dallas.
Thanks for any help on this.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
working on O2 system
do not archive
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Re: Engine sites
Not that I noticed. My plan is to visit them today and take pix for the folks
considering that path.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed Jul 26 21:42:37 2006
Thanks for your update - Bob.
Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or turbine.
Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at all?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:16 PM
>
> I walked by the Eggenfellner booth and the only thing in it was the 2 seat
> RV with a Subie installed. There was no static display of their FWF
> package as in years past and nothing at all about something for the RV-10.
> I did not go talk with them but there were certainly not doing anything to
> attract anybody.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50069#50069
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/27/06
We'll work on a group shot. Rob's 3400 and 3500 look very nice. They still have
a little work to do with the CDI and GS functions but it looks close. They
are supposed to be using a certified AHRS so hopefully they'll avoid some of
the experimental aspects of that.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed Jul 26 20:35:48 2006
BTW. Thanks so much for the updates. I must admit I keep scanning my
inbox, looking for more information, either pictures or summaries like
below. It's great to have you there, and the rest of the crowd. I'd
request more pictures, if you have the opportunity, but the verbal summaries
are very welcome, indeed. I know folks come and go, but if possible, I
request a group picture of the RV-10 builders. Maybe there will be a time
when most are in attendance. Be nice to gather them all together a take
some shots.
How is Rob Hickman's booth doing?
John J.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:48 PM
Not a lot new today but here's my impression of the show so far:
Avionics: The intro of the G600 and G900 is definitely the highlight of the
show, especially since Garmin didn't prep the vendors very well for
questions. Good thing they aren't going to be available until 2007.
Lycoming type engines: Not as much 540 material or displays as last year for
some reason. Most vendors have the same displays they always have. I did
not that Aerosport didn't even have a 540 in their booth. Barratt has Mike
Sausen's on display (very nice).
"Other" engines: Very much toned down from prior years. Eggenfellner only
has their demo plane in their booth - not even the static display of the
engine that they've had in prior years. No hint of anything at all targeted
at the RV-10 crowd. I didn't go into their booth but didn't see any
brochures, signage, etc. Deltahawk is a replay of the last several years.
Innodyne is almost non-existant. Mistral has a similar display to prior
years but I haven't stopped in yet. I haven't seen any of the other engine
folks but haven't covered the entire grounds yet either.
New planes: RV-12 is getting a lot of curiosity but since it's with the
other Van's models and not anywhere close to the other LSAs it's hard to say
if it's real interest. I haven't been to the LSA area yet. Honda announced
some sort of alliance with Piper to produce their VLJ.
Picture of the day is the Camp Scholler entrance into AirVenture from
Wednesday morning.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50080#50080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_60_367.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
OSH Engine Info
As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of engine
news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've attached a
collection.
At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've seen so
far.
EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have them
at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be getting tired
of being asked about it.
Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were pushing
is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails". Pictures attached
of both models along with their rotor display.
Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be doubled up
with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached of their entire
display along with a closeup of the nose section of the engine with rust on
the prop flange.
Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next year".
No picture attached.
Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the RV-10 setup
and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display space.
I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to extend the
cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350 HP.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Pascal" <pascalreid(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Engine Info
Thanks for the info and pictures.
The more I here about the "other" engine options the more Lycoming sounds
like a better choice.
At least I know it's been tested and is shipping!
Appreciate the comparo.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:15 PM
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Chris" <toaster73(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Engine Info
I'll add another thanks for the updates... How about ECI's experimental 540?
Any new news on that?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:15 PM
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
Jul 27, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
EFDsteve(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
Eric,
I'd like to add one more to your list, the Franklin is making a reappearance
at Oshkosh, just west of the Cleaveland Tools tent, north of hangar C. They
are bringing back their 220 hp, 6-cylinder 6A-350, made in Poland and
certified! Seems to me to be a better and more affordable alternative than the
Continental used by Vans in their proof of kit plane, and from what I've read
about it, it seems to have a good reputation as being smooth and generally
bullet proof. The brochure is available at _www.franklin-engines.com_
(http://www.franklin-engines.com)
Steve Weinstock
40230
In a message dated 7/27/2006 9:53:17 P.M. Central Standard Time,
ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
Thanks for the update Eric,
Is Hartzell making any noise about their new composite 3-blade prop? It
is supposedly 12 lbs lighter than their metal 3-blade
Jack Phillips
#40610
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
_________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/28/06
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have had some
new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of that. Dan Lloyd
is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim Olson's tent is in the
rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with a couple of friends are in tents
on the other side of Gary's motorhome. Total count right now is at 11 customer
built RV-10s: Recent arrivals include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel
Simmons N325HP and Jon Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen
it. Doesn't look like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
<seanblair(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Rookie questions
Hello all,
I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a plane
and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my time and transition
training in well before I jump into the 10.
Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems that I
do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the antennaes and
their placement in the airframe.
Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible locations/functions?
I am well into the fuselage construction and need to start thinking of
where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. I intend to go pretty heavily
on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and lots of glass in the panel.
Thanks for any help.
Sean Blair
#40225
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Engine Info
Just talked to them - they say it should be ready to show and ship by next summer
at OSH.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu Jul 27 19:13:06 2006
I'll add another thanks for the updates... How about ECI's experimental 540?
Any new news on that?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:15 PM
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/28/06
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've got a
couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He wasn't over
by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/28/06
Thanks for the information! This plane has always intrigued me since I
first saw it mentioned on the group list. I've always wondered how the
fixed pitch Catto compares to the Hartzell prop.
Vern (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:40 AM
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've
got a couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He
wasn't over by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: Rookie questions
Sean,
The antennas you will need are dictated by the equipment you choose.
There are com and nav antennae available for both wingtip mount and
fuselage. Some have mounted their GPS antennas under the cowl, others on
top of the fuselage or the instrument panel. X-ponder antennas generally
are mounted under the fuse, while the ELT antenna seems to work well near
the vertical tail on top of the fuse. I'm using the wingtips for nav and
marker beacon antennas with com antennas top and bottom of fuselage. Unsure
yet where I want my GPS antenna but my X-ponder will be close to the midline
near the front of the fuse.. Wire runs as necessary, plenty of space for
them in this airframe. Consult the manufacturer of the avionics you choose
for further suggestions on antenna placement....john
John Hasbrouck
#40264
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched
This is a bit odd, and I just want to verify that this is okay. I am on
page 15-4, step 1.
When match-drilling the 2 outboard most wing step ribs (W-1011) with the
rear spar (W-1007A) and the rear spar reinforcement fork (W-1007B), the
prepunched holes in the ribs do not line up with the holes in the other
parts.
2 outboard (left) most W-1011 ribs:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4364.html
Extra match-drill holes:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4365.html
It just seems strange to have these extra holes so close to the new
rivet-holes. However, all of my W-1011's have 4 pre-punched holes.
Everybody has these extra holes, right?
Thanks,
Jae
#40533
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/28/06
Don't take the HP number to the bank till a Barrett verified engine run
is Dyno'ed and documented. The number is not real (Its called a
Hollywood or California fudge factor and can change as quick as the new
owner peals the vinyl N number off and buys the aircraft now for SALE.
Do tell us why Noel.
John Cox
________________________________
SSA)
Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 10:40 AM
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've
got a couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He
wasn't over by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
<jim(at)CombsFive.Com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched
Jae,
My rear spar and rib have the same "issue". Drill the new holes and move on.
As they say in soccer, Play on!
Jim Combs
N312F
#40192 - Fuselage
===========================================================
This is a bit odd, and I just want to verify that this is okay. I am on
page 15-4, step 1.
When match-drilling the 2 outboard most wing step ribs (W-1011) with the
rear spar (W-1007A) and the rear spar reinforcement fork (W-1007B), the
prepunched holes in the ribs do not line up with the holes in the other
parts.
2 outboard (left) most W-1011 ribs:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4364.html
Extra match-drill holes:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4365.html
It just seems strange to have these extra holes so close to the new
rivet-holes. However, all of my W-1011's have 4 pre-punched holes.
Everybody has these extra holes, right?
Thanks,
Jae
#40533
===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/28/06
I am eating my words as you read this and owe everyone a Cold One for
the failure of the estimate. However there were three Atrocious RV-10s
with poor workmanship which means its better to keep that number low
until the quality of build QOB comes up to VANS standards. Many builders
simply do not respond on this list.
Then again Vic, Debbie and Tim have shown how great this kit can turn
out.
John Cox - KUAO on 24 hours
________________________________
Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 8:42 AM
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
John's Estimate Pay Up Time .
John,
We again have the RV-10 builder crowd around the campsite. Your timing is impecable,
please drop by with the refreshments or supply you CC number...
Bob
--------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 28, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
Very nice report. Thank you for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:49 PM
>
> All,
>
> Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
> too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
>
> Subaru:
> Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
> suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
> learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
> looked like an older installed engine on display.
>
> Deltahawk:
> Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
> and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
> putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
> be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
> 0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
> and comment that they regretted making statements of
> "soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
> longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
> business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
> tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
> intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
> slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
> to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
> was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
> note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
> putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
> bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
> fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
> psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
>
> Mistral:
> Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
> impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
> when I started asking about intermediate housing
> availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
>
> End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
> Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
> stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
> it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
> (like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
> exhausts....
>
> Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
> engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
> (and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
> system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
> replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
> This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
> housings and not the combustion chambers.
>
> Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
> have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
> 10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
> this is not as great as compression ignition but
> better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
>
> Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
> with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
>
> Innodyn:
> Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
> with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
> as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
> and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
> it has been for the last 3 years....
> Twinpack not a current focus.
>
> Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
> Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
> HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
> Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
> (at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
> to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
> it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
>
> ECi-540:
> didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
> they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
> potential customers they are missing. Price will be
> less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
>
> Superior diesel:
> Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
> good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
> Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
>
> SMA:
> didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
> for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
> market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
>
> E85 Ethanol:
> Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
> info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
> but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
> Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
> lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
>
> RV-12:
> Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
> attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
> mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
> Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
> Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
> Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
>
> I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
> their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
> judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
> Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
> "slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
> drilling either, holes puched final size.
>
> RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
> they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
> for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
> fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
> current position. Plane looks great overall.
>
> Garmin 900X:
> If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
> a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
> have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
> add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
> that they should start working with Van's or builders
> now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
> looks like you would have to cut in half all three
> firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
> more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
>
> Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
> doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
> and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
> conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
> complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
> want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
> If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
> lycoming or clone :)
>
> If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
> it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
> rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
> Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
>
> Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Wayne Edgerton" <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: Rookie questions
Sean, A lot depends on what type of flying you plan on doing. Tin
Olson's web site has a list of the antennas he used. It's similar to
what I've done to equip for IFR flight. Here is the link to Tim's
posting on this.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/panel/antennas/index.html
Wayne Edgerton #40336
do nor archive
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
LessDragProd(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: MT at OSH
You need to ask.
If you purchase an MT Propeller during the airshow week, there is a 10%
airshow discount from list price at the MT Propeller booth.
At Oshkosh and at Sun-N-Fun.
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 7/28/2006 8:49:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey"
No show special on MT that I'm aware of.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My Paypal
account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With the
lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually glad not
to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, safer
aircraft and smarter builders.
Rushing to class.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH count
Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want
to wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing Fuel Tanks
On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark.
> With the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am
> actually glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the
> quality, safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>
> Rushing to class.
>
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Simon Barber <simon(at)superduper.net>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH count
hi john,
I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a
first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if
it comes out like this you're doing it wrong".
Simon
Jeff Carpenter wrote:
> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want to
> wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Finishing Fuel Tanks
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
>
>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With
>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually
>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality,
>> safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>>
>> Rushing to class.
>>
>> John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox
I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son
and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary
Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the
trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put
names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys,
I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't
been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge
and time.
Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you
can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to
any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding
windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled
before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans,
these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these
planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion
as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and
one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible
shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also
taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most
complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them
selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm
confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride
in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce
planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and
Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences
in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any
signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of
information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain
of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT
taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that
infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me
to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of.
THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the
standard!
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Simon Barber wrote:
>
> hi john,
>
> I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a
> first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if
> it comes out like this you're doing it wrong".
>
> Simon
>
>
> Jeff Carpenter wrote:
>
>> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
>> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want
>> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
>>
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> Finishing Fuel Tanks
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
>>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With
>>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually
>>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality,
>>> safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>>>
>>> Rushing to class.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox
Deems, thanks for this.
I wrote John off line urging him to make a similar statement. Now, I don't
think he really needs to. However, not being there, and often not
understanding what lies behind a statement about this or that, is often
extremely frustrating. We do have Tim's site and mine and yours and others
to check before moving onto another section, another page, but here's what
I'd really like to see happen so that as a building community we can benefit
enormously from the expertise out there:
When someone with technical knowledge makes a statement about a technique or
procedure that is not in the plans (or even if it is in the plans and it is
IMPORTANT for people to pay attention to) that they believe would be best to
consider doing, because of their knowledge and expert experience of such
things, for it would help not only the build quality, but especially the
safety and integrity of the planes (a simple example would be fabricating
and using a doubler for the antennae, which was pointed out by John), then
these people need not only to raise the topic, but explain and even
demonstrate what they are talking about through a series of still pictures.
I would be more than happy to include these (and in fact have begun to do
so) in a special section of my web site, or simply make reference to Tim's
and have them all put there. In my opinion, there needs to be a list of
these aircraft building pearls of wisdom, each properly documented. I know.
I know. These are experimental planes and thus anyone can do, more or less,
what they want. And a ton of information resides in the archives. And what
is good for the airlines may not be good for or needed for GA. But...we are
a community of individuals who care for each other's safety, not just
quality, and each time something comes up that should be a building "must
do" let's get it out in the open for all and documented.
I'm probably overstating things. I just want everyone to be very well
informed. Choices of engines, panel goodies, paint, etc., are up to the
builder. But the airframe and how to "do it right" should be available to
all.
John J
Tailcone
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 10:50 AM
I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son and I
just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary Spectater,
and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the trip for me was
being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put names with faces.
3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys, I learned something,
valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't been there, THANKS again
to all who so willingly shared their knowledge and time.
Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you can
point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to any
builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding windows
to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled before
painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans, these are just
a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these planes, they scream
that they were put together with speed to completion as the primary goal,
pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and one immediately begins
to ask oneself, " If these readily visible shortcuts were taken, what
shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit,
the RV-10 plans are the best and most complete in the industry, 99.9% of the
parts will almost 'put them selves together (NOT applicable to the
fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who
takes a modicum of pride in their work, and who keeps safety in front of
timelines can produce planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's
and Debby's, and Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide
differences in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them
showed any signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source
of information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain of.
John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT taking
shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that infringes on
Safety. Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me to come back home
'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of.
THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the
standard!
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Simon Barber wrote:
>
> hi john,
>
> I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a
> first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if
> it comes out like this you're doing it wrong".
>
> Simon
>
>
> Jeff Carpenter wrote:
>
>> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
>> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want
>> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
>>
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> Finishing Fuel Tanks
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
>>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With
>>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually
>>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality,
>>> safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>>>
>>> Rushing to class.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Jae,The real problem is not just that the doubler extends beyong the
spar cap, but when they make these parts ALL of the holes are
punched/drilled prior to bending, and when the bends get made wrong,
(which is what is causing the problem) it will shift all of the holes,
some might be tempted to match drill lthe holes into the doubler and
continue, but all of these holes will be misalligned with the skins,
when it come time to put them on, check to make sure this isn't the case
with the parts you get, (I'm a bit surprised to see this problem showing
up in later wing kits).
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jae Chang wrote:
>
>Hi Deems...
>
>http://www.deemsrv10.com/15-3s1-4.html
>
>I noticed on your construction log where you had a problem with the
>W-1007E flange being longer than the rear spar flange by 1-10". Van's
>actually had to ship a new rear spar for you.
>
>I have the same issue, extends beyond by 1-16" on BOTH left and right
>wing doublers. The pictures below show a similar issue as yours. You can
>see the doubler is flush against the spar in one of the pics. You can
>click on each of the slide photos to get the full-sized 1024x768
>picture.
>
>http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4366.html
>http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4367.html
>http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4368.html
>http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4369.html
>
>I am wondering if anyone else had this similar issue. It did not seem
>like much of an issue to me, until I happened across your web page.
>Van's agreeing that it warranted shipment of a new rear spar, obviously,
>makes me nervous.
>
>Did anyone else see this issue?
>
>Thanks,
>Jae
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
OSH Update 7/29/06
Quick Bob,send me that bar bill before the whole list signs up. I am
sitting in Ohare returning west right now.
John
________________________________
Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 5:39 AM
Big news discovered yesterday is that the Avidyne folks will sell
Integra systems for installation in an RV-10. Don't really have many
details since the booth folks just found out. Price quoted at the booth
was $30K for the PFD and $15K for the 5000 MFD. A lot of money for
sure, but probably competitive with a G900 setup after you add radios.
Just for the photo collection I've added pictures of Noel Simmons'
N325HP and Jon Stewart's planes. Also an update of RV-10 HQ - it's
gotten a little crowed here. Finally, a set of pictures of Stein's gas
engine powered couch.
We are planning on leaving mid-day today so this will probably be my
last update.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50526#50526
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_996.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/sofa2_109.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_754.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_engine_170.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_502.jpg
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Loss of Jim Wright
Most should already know the story. His one of a kind replica took the
finest craftsmen in every craft to make the HK-1. Many watched in
amazement as it was built. At OSH we just watched it sit the whole
week.
Flown to OSH, parked for a week with bureaucratic red tape from the FAA
which prohibited a proper fly-off. Flown back to Oregon. Refueled, one
bolt led to a required forced landing. Site was identified, final
approach was set. Spectators ran out to photograph. Jim diverted so as
not to kill the $@&* photograpers. The rest is aviation history.
Same year Shannon K flying (what in my opinion was the finest
workmanship and) the prettiest Lancair Legacy 2000 EVER. Was told by
his friends of a critical engine flaw. Filled with fuel. Left the same
OSH as Jim. Wouldn't deviate. Lost the engine over Madison. Hit a
light standard in a car dealership parking lot and cartwheeled.
Leaving OSH can be risky. Listen to your inner voice. Cut no corners.
Let's toast a drink of your choice at next year when we bring out the
new Nanchang CJ-6 and give Tim's wife the ride of her life (after
extensive fly off).
Russ my hat and heart is with you on every hour. Congratulations.
Flying remains a remarkable, safe and extraordinarily exciting
adventure.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Update 7/29/06
We will as soon as we're finished...
Bob
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sat Jul 29 13:44:39 2006
Quick Bob,send me that bar bill before the whole list signs up. I am sitting in
Ohare returning west right now.
John
________________________________
Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 5:39 AM
Big news discovered yesterday is that the Avidyne folks will sell Integra systems
for installation in an RV-10. Don't really have many details since the booth
folks just found out. Price quoted at the booth was $30K for the PFD and $15K
for the 5000 MFD. A lot of money for sure, but probably competitive with
a G900 setup after you add radios.
Just for the photo collection I've added pictures of Noel Simmons' N325HP and Jon
Stewart's planes. Also an update of RV-10 HQ - it's gotten a little crowed
here. Finally, a set of pictures of Stein's gas engine powered couch.
We are planning on leaving mid-day today so this will probably be my last update.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50526#50526
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_996.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/sofa2_109.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_754.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_engine_170.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_502.jpg
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Tunnel Temps
Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for high
temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up against the
tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No problem,
even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg (just in
case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I didn't
feel the heat).
After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the
following:
1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't
remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the
my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors
after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of
wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup
of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip
from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel floor
and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A
firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not
build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the
edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on
the sidewalls.
Hope these tips help.
By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear
leg fairings between flights.
Russ Daves
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: Inspection completed!
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
Wow....what a pleasure to meet so many RV 10 builders and see some great
craftmanship. Just got home and unpacked ........read my 142 emails an
d cant wait to get started sanding more fiberglass wheel pants. I want
to say what a great time it was drinking beer at the Vans picnics and he
aring John Cox's RV 10 tweak list........great ideas. I now need to org
anize all the builder cards i was given so when those questions arise I
can CALL and get an 2nd opinion from one of the many talented builders o
n this list.
John C. Only 358 days left till Oshkosh 2007............I am betting 10
0 RV 10 planes at Airventure 2007! Hopefully I am in that 100 list!
Keep building (your best quality work),
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Wow....what a pleasure to meet so many RV 10 builders and see s
ome great craftmanship. Just got home and unpacked ........read my
142 emails and cant wait to get started sanding more fiberglass wheel p
ants. I want to say what a great time it was drinking beer at the
Vans picnics and hearing John Cox's RV 10 tweak list........great ideas.
I now need to organize all the builder cards i was given so when
those questions arise I can CALL and get an 2nd opinion from one of the
many talented builders on this list.
John C. Only 358 days left till Oshkosh 2007............I am be
tting 100 RV 10 planes at Airventure 2007! Hopefully I am in that 100 li
st!
Keep building (your best quality work),
Dean
40449
______________________
__________________________________________________
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 29, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tunnel Temps
Russ,
What kind of foil faced insulation did you use? What was the actual
insulating material? Where did you buy it?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Daves
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps
Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for
high temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up
against the tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No
problem, even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg
(just in case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I
didn't feel the heat).
After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the
following:
1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't
remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the
my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors
after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of
wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup
of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip
from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel
floor and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A
firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not
build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the
edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on
the sidewalls.
Hope these tips help.
By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear
leg fairings between flights.
Russ Daves
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tunnel Temps
Used Super Soundproofing Thermal Aluminum faced fire retardant foil one
side insulator blanket from "The Super Soundproofing Company"
http://www.soundproofing.org/cgi-bin/cart.pl?
I bought six feet and had enough.
I also bought twelve feet of 1/2" soundproofing for the floors and side
panels from Wicks
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_search_results.php/search=
c3AtNTAw
Russ Daves
40044 - N710RV Flying
----- Original Message -----
From: KiloPapa
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps
Russ,
What kind of foil faced insulation did you use? What was the actual
insulating material? Where did you buy it?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Daves
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps
Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for
high temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up
against the tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No
problem, even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg
(just in case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I
didn't feel the heat).
After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did
the following:
1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't
remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the
my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent
doors after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a
piece of wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable.
After setup of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door.
(Install tip from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel
floor and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A
firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not
build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the
edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and
on the sidewalls.
Hope these tips help.
By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and
gear leg fairings between flights.
Russ Daves
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tunnel Temps
Any more details on the engine gasket material you used?
Larry Rosen
#356
N205EN - Doors
Russell Daves wrote:
> Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for
> high temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up
> against the tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes.
> No problem, even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my
> leg (just in case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg
> and I didn't feel the heat).
>
> After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the
> following:
>
> 1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
> gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes.
> (Don't remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as
> 90% of the my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
>
> 2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors
> after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece
> of wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After
> setup of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door.
> (Install tip from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
>
> 3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
>
> 4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel
> floor and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my
> RV-6A firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I
> did not build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up
> to the edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
>
> 5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on
> the sidewalls.
>
> Hope these tips help.
>
> By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear
> leg fairings between flights.
>
> Russ Daves
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tunnel Temps
Just ask at any auto parts store for a roll of engine gasket material. It
comes in about 8 inch by 24 inch roll I think.
Russ Daves
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:46 AM
>
> Any more details on the engine gasket material you used?
> Larry Rosen
> #356
> N205EN - Doors
>
> Russell Daves wrote:
>> Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for high
>> temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up against the
>> tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No problem,
>> even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg (just in
>> case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I didn't feel
>> the heat).
>> After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the
>> following:
>> 1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
>> gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't
>> remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the
>> my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
>> 2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors
>> after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of
>> wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup
>> of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip
>> from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
>> 3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
>> 4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel floor
>> and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A
>> firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not
>> build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the edge
>> of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
>> 5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on
>> the sidewalls.
>> Hope these tips help.
>> By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear
>> leg fairings between flights.
>> Russ Daves
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Elevator bucking bar
I need some help! On page 9-12, step 3 there is a special bucking
bar described. I have no way to create one.....does any one have one to
share or sell? Alternately did anyone use the MK-319 blind rivets instead?
How
does that work out for looks?
Thanks -
Steve #40499
Stephen Blank
766 SE River Lane
Port St. Lucie, FL 34983
772-475-5556
Sent from my Treo 600
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: Elevator bucking bar
You can get it here:
http://cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BBRV10
It comes in handy for more than the elevators!
-Jim 40384
LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I need some help! On page 9-12, step 3 there is a special bucking
>bar described. I have no way to create one.....does any one have one to
>share or sell? Alternately did anyone use the MK-319 blind rivets instead?
How
>does that work out for looks?
>
> Thanks -
>
>Steve #40499
>
>Stephen Blank
>766 SE River Lane
>Port St. Lucie, FL 34983
>772-475-5556
>
>Sent from my Treo 600
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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________________________________________________________________________________
On Jul 30, 2006, at 11:54 AM, John Lenhardt wrote:
simple...
Why not just Enforce the 51% rule? And, like the IRS, you can
be penalized even after the fact...
Of course, that would require some kind of "51% Police" bureaucracy
to enforce the rule. The FAA does not have the resources to do it.
Let's be careful what we wish for.
David Maib
#40559
tailcone
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Tunnel Temps
The baffle material works as well and is already on hand. Both the red hi
temp silicon and the thinner black works great.
Steve d
40205
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:30 AM
Just ask at any auto parts store for a roll of engine gasket material. It
comes in about 8 inch by 24 inch roll I think.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Elevator bucking bar
I used a standard back rivet plate with a small block of wood as a spacer.
Worked fine.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (260 hrs)
RV-10 (tail cone)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:17 AM
I need some help! On page 9-12, step 3 there is a special bucking
bar described. I have no way to create one.....does any one have one to
share or sell? Alternately did anyone use the MK-319 blind rivets
instead? How
does that work out for looks?
Thanks -
Steve #40499
Stephen Blank
766 SE River Lane
Port St. Lucie, FL 34983
772-475-5556
Sent from my Treo 600
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
OshKosh __Tunnel heat
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
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________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 30, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, The plot thickens
Regarding the 51% rule and individuals building RV-10's for profit and
not for personal use. There is an interesting/scary thread on VAF that I
would encourage you all to read.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=8335&page=1&pp=10
in this thread there is reference to the company in the Philipines that
Van's has contracted with to do the quickbuilds. on this company's website.
http://www.bonanzametalcrafters.com/prodserv.htm
at the bottom of this page is a frame that is labled 'RV10 FULL BUILD'.
If you continue reading the thread someone claims that he was told
during a tour of the factory by the owner that he had received
approval/permission from Van's to buy the complete airframe kits fron
Van's and build and remarket them!!!!!!!! Heresy, but the web site tends
to substantiate the intent.
This may have something to do with the double talk that Van & Ken gave
at the Forum when John Cox posed the question to them as to what they
were going to do to ensure that RV's continued to be owner/built. ! ? ! ?
The quality of the QB's are for the most part very good, however as
noted in the thread, due to frequent turnover of the bonanza staff, and
Van's loose QC, there are some exceptions which have occured.
The plot thickens .........
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Finish Wheel pant/Fairings Before engine
While inspecting an RV-10 at OSH last week, Van came walking up to look
at the RV 10 also. After asking how he was progressing on his personal
RV 10 build, I asked why the plans do not call to complete the wheel pan
ts/fairing before mounting the motor and wings? It is much easier to LI
FT the plane to flying level conditions and mount the pants without figh
ting the weight of the motor and inconvenience of climbing under the win
gs several tmes to get accurate measurements. Van said he already compl
eted the pants for the reasons mentioned. So IF you are not to this sta
ge yet, plan to complete your wheel pants and fairing before mounting th
e motor and wings. I heard from a few completed RV builds that they had
a hard time getting into BUILD mold after flying the aircraft. They al
so said the hanger floor was not near as LEVEL as the garage at home. I
t is very important to get the plane level with wheels OFF the ground to
fit the pants properly. Otherwise, you may be adding a trim block/syst
em to get the plane flying hands off like it flew with no pants/fairings
IF constructed properly. Doing the pants at this time in the build als
o delays that big check you write for the motor! :)
Dean
40449 (working on Oil Cooler door system)
________________________________________________________________________
While inspecting an RV-10 at OSH last week, Van came walking up
to look at the RV 10 also. After asking how he was progressing on
his personal RV 10 build, I asked why the plans do not call to complete
the wheel pants/fairing before mounting the motor and wings? It i
s much easier to LIFT the plane to flying level conditions and mount the
pants without fighting the weight of the motor and inconvenience of cli
mbing under the wings several tmes to get accurate measurements. V
an said he already completed the pants for the reasons mentioned.
So IF you are not to this stage yet, plan to complete your wheel pants a
nd fairing before mounting the motor and wings. I heard from a few
completed RV builds that they had a hard time getting into BUILD mold a
fter flying the aircraft. They also said the hanger floor was not
near as LEVEL as the garage at home. It is very important to get t
he plane level with wheels OFF the ground to fit the pants properly.&nbs
p; Otherwise, you may be adding a trim block/system to get the plane fly
ing hands off like it flew with no pants/fairings IF constructed properl
y. Doing the pants at this time in the build also delays that big
check you write for the motor! :)
Dean
40449 (working on Oil Cooler door system)
______________________
__________________________________________________
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Brian Douglas" <bsponcil(at)belinblank.org>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
-----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
>
>
>
> Subaru:
> Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
> suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
> learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
> looked like an older installed engine on display.
I have to say that I was disappointed in the Eggenfellner display. No H6
(as far as I could tell) let alone a RV-10 FWF package. Just a couple of
older subies on rather sad looking planes.
> Deltahawk:
> Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
> and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
> putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
> be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
> 0.38 [Very good].
I never got close enough to ask any questions but I did overhear them say
their focus right now is on certification. That BSFC is eye catching. Is
that mostly due to the inherently high compression ratios in diesels? Or is
diesel fuel just really light ;-)
> Mistral:
> Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
> impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
> when I started asking about intermediate housing
> availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
>
> Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
> with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Agreed. They didn't seem too interested in even being there let alone
answering customer questions. Just my impression though.
> SMA:
> didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
> for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
> market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
I talked to them a bit and they have little/no interest in the experimental
market. They said it's just too much work supporting home builders. Looks
like a great product though. What I don't get is why they're so expensive?
I thought one of the advantages of buying Mercedes blocks was economy of
scale....
>
> E85 Ethanol:
> Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
> info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
> but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
> Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
> lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
I went to their forum and found it pretty interesting. A few years ago they
took a stock mooney 201(?) and did nothing to it but increase the fuel flow.
With only an altered bendix they flew 800 (presumably trouble free) hours on
88% ethanol and some additives (isopentane?). They were getting a BSFC of
.58 or so (not so good. Typical avgas engine is .42-.45). At TBO, they
rebuilt the engine and made some additional modifications (10:1 pistons,
electronic ignition, vetterman exhaust, etc) and are now seeing BSFC of
around .48-.50. I guess the main thing I took from it was that if they ever
do get rid of 100LL, it won't take a lot of modification to run the ol
lycosaur on ethanol.
>
> RV-12:
> Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
> attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
> mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
> Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes.
I'm not a big fan of the removable wings. I suppose it seperates them from
the other LSAs but I wonder how many people would actually trailer their
plane home regularly. Man, I love the idea of the holes being the final
size. Why can't they do that for all of the prepunched kits?
-Brian
#40497
N211BD
Iowa City, IA
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or some of the
overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session then less than 2
weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all the paperwork saying the
"owner" has completed the 51% rule?
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Elevator bucking bar
Cleaveland tools sells one, you'll need it for the fuselage as well.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on this list
saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit to complete
airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of construction time
for the average builder. Now assume the "build to order" guy has some
experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting close to a three month
build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess retired folks or those who
do this work full time can devote that kind of effort, but I seriously doubt
it. This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
listed as a co-builder? This leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad
into helping or partnering me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time
quite a bit. He's a retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience
banging rivets.
JKH
On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or some of
> the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session then less than
> 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all the paperwork
> saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule?
>
> Patrick
>
________________________________________________________________________________
As long as we are on the subject *ehem*, I did also stop by and listen
to Jan a little bit and took a look at his lack of a display. Actually
he had an example of an older 4 cylinder install there in a customer
aircraft. Not that does a lot of good as it is now an old model that he
no longer sells, but it is at least representative of his engineering.
I won't go into my perception of the quality of the customer aircraft as
that can't be reflected back on Jan. ;)
I will note a couple of other things. The design on the H6 has once
again changed from a supercharger to a turbocharger, although I don't
know when this happened. There was no other display of an engine at his
booth and Jan claimed the weather kept anyone from flying in that would
have allowed him to display it (I'm still trying to figure out where
they were coming from as no one else seemed to have a problem getting
in. His older customer display was gone by Saturday leaving him with a
big bus and an empty booth for a display. His seminar on Friday looked
full but I didn't have the time to stop in and listen.
As I am 140 messages behind I will wait to post anything on the
Mistral which looked very promising.
Michael
-10 #352 Fuselage
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:16 PM
I walked by the Eggenfellner booth and the only thing in it was the 2
seat RV with a Subie installed. There was no static display of their
FWF package as in years past and nothing at all about something for the
RV-10. I did not go talk with them but there were certainly not doing
anything to attract anybody.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50069#50069
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
One thing I will add about the Mistral is that they did tell me that the
smaller two rotor engines are available now and their current goal is
certification. Three rotor model was probably next year. YMMV. The
smaller two rotor turbocharged 230HP would probably be a good fit for
the -10.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:15 PM
As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way
of engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so
I've attached a collection.
At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
seen so far.
EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and
have them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to
be getting tired of being asked about it.
Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they
were pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one
fails". Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor
display.
Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture
attached of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose
section of the engine with rust on the prop flange.
Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
year". No picture attached.
Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their
display space.
I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
HP.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
One thing I would like to say about MT @ OSH, it would be nice if they
had US distributors man their booth. I went in there asking questions
and was basically given the model number and shoved out of the booth by
a little annoying German guy. If they didn't have a good history I
would have changed my mind on the spot. Something to take back to them
Jim.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:44 AM
No show special on MT that I'm aware of.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50333#50333
________________________________________________________________________________
I spent a little time talking to the guy from EPM.AV at OSH. We were
discussing the heat problem and he is going to send me prototype heater
boxes that are two part separated by a ceramic gasket for a full thermal
break. I'll send some pictures when I get it in a couple weeks.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 8:11 PM
Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for high
temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up against the
tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No problem,
even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg (just in
case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I didn't
feel the heat).
After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the
following:
1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out
gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't
remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the
my help tips have - Thanks Tim).
2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors
after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of
wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup
of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip
from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse).
3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box.
4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel floor
and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A
firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not
build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the
edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump.
5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on
the sidewalls.
Hope these tips help.
By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear
leg fairings between flights.
Russ Daves
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
MT at OSH
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Pascal" <pascalreid(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Engine Info
There is already one person in Denmark putting the 230 in his RV-10. If you
look at engine it gives his opinion of the factory tour, if you look at
"updates" you'll get the engine delivery status.
http://www.rv10.dk/rv10/rv/defaulte.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:00 AM
>
>
> One thing I will add about the Mistral is that they did tell me that the
> smaller two rotor engines are available now and their current goal is
> certification. Three rotor model was probably next year. YMMV. The
> smaller two rotor turbocharged 230HP would probably be a good fit for
> the -10.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:15 PM
>
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way
> of engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so
> I've attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and
> have them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to
> be getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they
> were pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one
> fails". Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor
> display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture
> attached of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose
> section of the engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their
> display space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Pascal" <pascalreid(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
listed as a co-builder?
Not if the "builder" hires a few guys from the local Home depot parking
lot, or maybe even the super QB from the Phillipines. I figure you buy
all 4 kits at once and have everyone work on the kits at the same time
it will be 4 times faster and can be done rather quickly.
----- Original Message -----
From: James K Hovis
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on this
list saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit to
complete airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of
construction time for the average builder. Now assume the "build to
order" guy has some experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting
close to a three month build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess
retired folks or those who do this work full time can devote that kind
of effort, but I seriously doubt it. This "build to order" example has
to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper" listed as a co-builder? This
leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad into helping or partnering
me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time quite a bit. He's a
retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience banging rivets.
JKH
On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:
Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or
some of the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session
then less than 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all
the paperwork saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule?
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
I was told that Will James doesn't have the prototype cowl ready yet for
the Barrett Cold Air System because he reprioritized the Egg cowl ahead
of it. >:[
He also didn't make OSH because he had surgery. No detail on it so I
don't know if it was emergency or scheduled. I'll probably give him a
call in a couple weeks.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:35 PM
Just wondering if any of the after market exhibits have on display nose
cowling for the Rv 10. Or indeed variation options to the composite
cabin and door structure.
Have a good time guys
Paul Walter
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
3 bld prop & lower cowl tip
One of the things that I picked up @ OSH was a tip from a builder who
had installed a 3 bld on their RV-10. Attached is a link to a photo I
took of his installation, I made a removable plate @ the bottom of the
induction air intake. In talking to him he said this helped but if he
had it to do over again he would have cut the entire intake scoop away
from the lower cowl and then attached it with nutplates, etc. I believe
his quote was. the time it would take to do that modification would
still be less than the time it takes to get the lower cowl off w a 3bld.
http://deemsrv10.com/album/OSHKOSH%202006/slides/DSC03088.html
The pic was taken lying on my back so sorry about the angle
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Mark Ritter wrote:
>
> Be careful putting your lower cowl on an off with the MT prop. Wrap
> the prop packing cover with duck tape - the piano henges can do some
> serious damage. Don't ask me how I know.
>
> =================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Who from MT was at OSH
Just lookig to find out who from MT was there.
I'm expecting my prop back from MT in FL - getting the correct length hub/spinner
to fit my SamJames cowl.
Ralph Capen
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Cowl vs MT prop
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The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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________________________________________________________________________________
From:
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Cowl
Michael,
NICE engine!!!
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
Pascal,
Interesting. How much of the 51% of aircraft assembly under the rules
can a builder farm-out? You are basically farming out a portion of the
assembly to the kit company by buying a quick build kit. But, in the case of
Van's, there's an agreement between the kit company and the FAA that the 51%
rule isn't violated by the QB kits. But what's used as a "standard"? Is the
bending of metal count towards the total time too?
JKH
On 7/31/06, Pascal wrote:
>
> This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
> listed as a co-builder?
>
> Not if the "builder" hires a few guys from the local Home depot parking
> lot, or maybe even the super QB from the Phillipines. I figure you buy all 4
> kits at once and have everyone work on the kits at the same time it will be
> 4 times faster and can be done rather quickly.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* James K Hovis
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 7:08 AM
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
>
>
> Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on this list
> saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit to complete
> airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of construction time
> for the average builder. Now assume the "build to order" guy has some
> experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting close to a three month
> build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess retired folks or those who
> do this work full time can devote that kind of effort, but I seriously doubt
> it. This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
> listed as a co-builder? This leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad
> into helping or partnering me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time
> quite a bit. He's a retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience
> banging rivets.
>
> JKH
>
>
> On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or some
> > of the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session then less
> > than 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all the paperwork
> > saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule?
> >
> > Patrick
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: 51% Rule
Good article!
On 7/31/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Here is something I ran across from EAA's newsletter:
>
> http://www.airventure.org/2006/frijuly28/51rule.html
>
> Michael
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
I would suggest that we want to keep separate the building vs testing.
One may wish to build an airplane and follow **ALL** the rules to the letter
but NOT be confident in flying skills at the moment. No problem getting
someone to fly some or ALL of the test time in my opinion. Actually the
builder does note even have to be a pilot if I recall correctly. So let's
not mix apples and watermelons.
An example:
A local builder built an RV6A some years ago. He and his 2 other partners
flew it for years. One partner dies and the other stops flying so they sell
it clear up the estate matters I think. This builder later decides to build
again so he can fly! He does every last rivet in the plane himself and even
though he was a WWII flight instructor in "Stearman's" and T-6's and a whole
bunch of other stuff, he asks me to help in flying some of his test time. I
was honored to do it for him as although he is in his mid eighties (85+), he
can still fly CIRCLES around me in the RV. He just did not have the time or
energy after (non threatening, elective) surgery of some sorts. He is now
all healed and good to go.
It would have been a BAD thing if this guy would get caught up in something
as proposed.
James
p.s. Please correct me if I mis-interpreted what you were saying.
On 7/31/06, James K Hovis wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I agree, but if there is going to be a change in the rules then maybe a
> further refinement such as what I allude to could be a good compromise and
> not bring down some draconian rule that hurts guys building now and those of
> us who wish to start in the near future. Something like 80 - 90% of the test
> flight time has to be done by the builder/owner (or one of them in case of a
> partnership). This still allows a poeriod when you hire a free-lance pilot
> for initial tests if you aren't comfortable doing it. Therefore once the
> test period is done, the airplane is an "airplane" in every sense. Actually
> flying your creation is a sure sign to me that you are doing the effort to
> build for your personal education and enjoyment.
>
<>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Cowl vs MT prop
There are several pics of their plane in this folder:
http://deemsrv10.com/album/OSHKOSH%202006/index.html
the beginning (grey/beigh interior) shots are of their plane and then
after the red plane shots (Vic's) theres some others.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
Ralph E. Capen wrote:
> Any links to Jim and Debbie's -10 would be appreciated.
>
> I don't want to mess up my prop with the cowl hinges either....I'm
> guessing we're talking about the horizontal row joining the
> upper/lower.....
> < ="==================================="
> Navigator?RV10-List="=================================================-Matt"
> www.matronics.com http: much and Photoshare, Navigator Features>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: OSH Engine Info - Mistral and V330 + yet another OSH engine
summary
Mistral:
All injected Mazda's use dual injectors. The smaller
injector is for idle to mid-power. The secondary comes
on for higher power. Reason for two is single injector
does not have the dynamic range for idle to full
power. Downside, is if you loose one, the other cannot
take up the slack as duty cycles above 80%. The other
reason for two injectors per rotor is there are two
side intakes per rotor.
Dual ignition is also stock Mazda. The leading plug
does the majority of the work and the trailing plug is
mostly for emissions (it is shielded). If you set
timing equal for power, it is still not a full backup
due to the shielded spark and location.
2 rotors with turbo charging is not as attractive as 3
rotors and no-turbo charging. Normally aspirated
3-rotor block weight is ~ 240 lbs and with accessories
should be comparable to IO-540 for ~ 230-250 HP.
Rotary exhaust is ~ 1700+ deg and is very hard on
turbo's. Car systems use massive cast iron manifolds
to manage heat.
V330: This is the rotax water cooled engine spin off.
I may have the name wrong. Talked with them for
awhile, they are focusing on OEM applications and
won't look at experimental market for 4-5 years. For
RV-10, V330 and V220 engines (non turbo charged) are
going to be too heavy as weight is ~500+ without
exhaust, cooling, etc. Price is more than 50k and less
than 100k. (Didn't disagree when I said 80k).
BSFC a respectable 0.445
For 80k you could build up the world's best IO-540
with full FADEC, flow matched, dyno tested, etc. and
still have 10's of thousands for avgas....
Eggenfellner and H6: I looked at H6 for RV-10
previously, but did not see Jan's talk. Max HP is near
lower range of RV-10 requirement. Supercharger's tend
to lower efficiency than turbo. Both would require
aggressive intercooling for an H-6 as stock compresion
ratio is ~ 10.5:1. By most measures, this is not a
good candiate engine for turbo charging and I believe
subaru has also never turbocharged it. Better target
would be their low compression 4-cylinders.
After further review, my OSH assessment is:
- Want to fly in 2006? Lycoming new or rebuilt
- Willing to wait to 2007? ECi IO-540 clone or
Superior XP-540 might be options.
- Do it yourself: Mazda 3-rotor conversion with Tracy
drive and controller, Conversion concepts mount and ~
14K (3K engine, 1.2 rebuild, 2.8 drive, 1.8
controller, 1.7 mount, 3 intake/exhaust/rad)
- Hanger flying: Innodyn, Eggenfellner, Mistral, etc.
Reason for hanger flying for some of those packages is
although they might work, the cost to benefit ratio is
not compelling (IMHO).
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Schroeder, Bob (Parts Clerk)" <BSchroeder(at)uta.cog.ut.us>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
-10's for sale in quantity, available today
Isn't the point of the 51% rule for the sole purpose of who does the
maintenance on the plane? I build a plane for the enjoyment and because
I can't otherwise afford to own my own plane. That said, if I were in a
position to afford to have someone else build it and maintain it after
then so be it. With the van's line of aircraft you get a superior
airframe and an excellent safety record. As long as the buyer is willing
to pay for the services what difference does it make to me when I build
my own? Just a thought.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:15 AM
Pascal,
Interesting. How much of the 51% of aircraft assembly under the
rules can a builder farm-out? You are basically farming out a portion of
the assembly to the kit company by buying a quick build kit. But, in the
case of Van's, there's an agreement between the kit company and the FAA
that the 51% rule isn't violated by the QB kits. But what's used as a
"standard"? Is the bending of metal count towards the total time too?
JKH
On 7/31/06, Pascal wrote:
This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
listed as a co-builder?
Not if the "builder" hires a few guys from the local Home depot parking
lot, or maybe even the super QB from the Phillipines. I figure you buy
all 4 kits at once and have everyone work on the kits at the same time
it will be 4 times faster and can be done rather quickly.
----- Original Message -----
From: James K Hovis <mailto:james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available
today
Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on
this list saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit
to complete airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of
construction time for the average builder. Now assume the "build to
order" guy has some experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting
close to a three month build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess
retired folks or those who do this work full time can devote that kind
of effort, but I seriously doubt it. This "build to order" example has
to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper" listed as a co-builder? This
leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad into helping or partnering
me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time quite a bit. He's a
retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience banging rivets.
JKH
On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com < GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
> wrote:
Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or
some of the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session
then less than 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all
the paperwork saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule?
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
I don't think you mis-interpreted me at all. I'm sure there are those out
there who enjoy the building and not the flying part of the homebuilding
hobby kind of like it is in another hobby I'm involved in. But it does seem
to me that flying your creation goes a long way to showing you aren't doing
it for profit. However, there are always exceptions to the rule and there is
a waiver process that could help in situations like you cite. What I hate
more is this has to be discussed at all because a few bad apples stretching
the rules.
JKH
On 7/31/06, James Clark wrote:
>
> I would suggest that we want to keep separate the building vs testing.
>
> One may wish to build an airplane and follow **ALL** the rules to the
> letter but NOT be confident in flying skills at the moment. No problem
> getting someone to fly some or ALL of the test time in my opinion. Actually
> the builder does note even have to be a pilot if I recall correctly. So
> let's not mix apples and watermelons.
>
> An example:
>
> A local builder built an RV6A some years ago. He and his 2 other partners
> flew it for years. One partner dies and the other stops flying so they sell
> it clear up the estate matters I think. This builder later decides to build
> again so he can fly! He does every last rivet in the plane himself and even
> though he was a WWII flight instructor in "Stearman's" and T-6's and a whole
> bunch of other stuff, he asks me to help in flying some of his test time. I
> was honored to do it for him as although he is in his mid eighties (85+), he
> can still fly CIRCLES around me in the RV. He just did not have the time or
> energy after (non threatening, elective) surgery of some sorts. He is now
> all healed and good to go.
>
> It would have been a BAD thing if this guy would get caught up in
> something as proposed.
>
> James
>
> p.s. Please correct me if I mis-interpreted what you were saying.
>
>
> On 7/31/06, James K Hovis wrote:
> >
> > Michael,
> > I agree, but if there is going to be a change in the rules then maybe
> > a further refinement such as what I allude to could be a good compromise and
> > not bring down some draconian rule that hurts guys building now and those of
> > us who wish to start in the near future. Something like 80 - 90% of the test
> > flight time has to be done by the builder/owner (or one of them in case of
a
> > partnership). This still allows a poeriod when you hire a free-lance pilot
> > for initial tests if you aren't comfortable doing it. Therefore once the
> > test period is done, the airplane is an "airplane" in every sense. Actually
> > flying your creation is a sure sign to me that you are doing the effort to
> > build for your personal education and enjoyment.
> >
>
>
> <>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Cowl vs MT prop (Jim & Debbie lurking?)
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________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John McMahon" <rv6(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
RV 10 Mike Seager training at (1m5)
Mike Saeger will be in Portland,Tn (1M5) 50 miles north of Nashville,Tn
Sept 13,14,15..He will be giving
flight training in the factory RV-10..The cost is $155.00 per Hr.If you
are interested in flying with Mike,
please E-Mail me at (rv6(at)earthlink.net) or call me at 615-452-8742..When
I get a feel for who is interested
I will set up a schedule to accommodate you..First come first serve!!
There is a Motel in Franklin,Ky $98.00 nite,270-598-8001 Hampton Inn..
John McMahon (RV6
180/CS) Flying
Gallatin,Tn
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
3 bld prop & lower cowl tip
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________________________________________________________________________________
Actually no. The purpose of the 51% rule is about defining 51% of the
tasks to be completed by someone other than the kit manufacturer for an
experimental kit. Notice I said tasks, it's not necessarily 51% of the
construction as some things such as painting are usually considered
exempt. The rule also goes on to define what is acceptable under the
experimental certification and production is not one of them.
For the repairman's certificate it is more about being geared to the
one person that did the majority of the work but again is open to
interpretation by the FAA. There are plenty examples of 2, 3, or even 5
guys getting together to build an airplane but only one can apply for
the repairman's certificate. Again, notice I said apply for it, it
isn't something automatically granted to the builder, you need to
request it. If 5 guys equally perform 51% of the tasks no one person
would have performed more than 10.2% of the actual work but any one of
them could still get the repairman's certificate.
Or at least that is how it's always been 'splained to me.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Schroeder,
Bob (Parts Clerk)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:50 PM
Isn't the point of the 51% rule for the sole purpose of who does the
maintenance on the plane? I build a plane for the enjoyment and because
I can't otherwise afford to own my own plane. That said, if I were in a
position to afford to have someone else build it and maintain it after
then so be it. With the van's line of aircraft you get a superior
airframe and an excellent safety record. As long as the buyer is willing
to pay for the services what difference does it make to me when I build
my own? Just a thought.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:15 AM
Pascal,
Interesting. How much of the 51% of aircraft assembly under the
rules can a builder farm-out? You are basically farming out a portion of
the assembly to the kit company by buying a quick build kit. But, in the
case of Van's, there's an agreement between the kit company and the FAA
that the 51% rule isn't violated by the QB kits. But what's used as a
"standard"? Is the bending of metal count towards the total time too?
JKH
On 7/31/06, Pascal wrote:
This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper"
listed as a co-builder?
Not if the "builder" hires a few guys from the local Home depot parking
lot, or maybe even the super QB from the Phillipines. I figure you buy
all 4 kits at once and have everyone work on the kits at the same time
it will be 4 times faster and can be done rather quickly.
----- Original Message -----
From: James K Hovis <mailto:james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available
today
Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on
this list saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit
to complete airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of
construction time for the average builder. Now assume the "build to
order" guy has some experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting
close to a three month build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess
retired folks or those who do this work full time can devote that kind
of effort, but I seriously doubt it. This "build to order" example has
to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper" listed as a co-builder? This
leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad into helping or partnering
me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time quite a bit. He's a
retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience banging rivets.
JKH
On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com < GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
> wrote:
Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or
some of the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session
then less than 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all
the paperwork saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule?
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Schroeder, Bob (Parts Clerk)" <BSchroeder(at)uta.cog.ut.us>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
-10's for sale in quantity, available today
Michael, what does someone do that had no hand in the building of the
aircraft and purchased it second hand. The people that built it are no
where to be found. It was 'splained to me that in order to even qualify
as the repairman for a particular experimental aircraft that (he,she)
needs to be able to document 51% of the build. If on the other hand I
just have lots of money and don't care if the local FBO rakes me over
the coals to work on my "experimental aircraft" then why would anyone
care except for the people involved? It seems to me that some people are
upset because someone else can do something that they cannot do (jealous
or some other feeling) so lets put a spot light on the situation. If
someone can sell their RV-10 for 300 G, go for it. It just makes the
market better for those that may want sell theirs later? It seems to me.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:30 PM
Actually no. The purpose of the 51% rule is about defining 51% of the
tasks to be completed by someone other than the kit manufacturer for an
experimental kit. Notice I said tasks, it's not necessarily 51% of the
construction as some things such as painting are usually considered
exempt. The rule also goes on to define what is acceptable under the
experimental certification and production is not one of them.
For the repairman's certificate it is more about being geared to the
one person that did the majority of the work but again is open to
interpretation by the FAA. There are plenty examples of 2, 3, or even 5
guys getting together to build an airplane but only one can apply for
the repairman's certificate. Again, notice I said apply for it, it
isn't something automatically granted to the builder, you need to
request it. If 5 guys equally perform 51% of the tasks no one person
would have performed more than 10.2% of the actual work but any one of
them could still get the repairman's certificate.
Or at least that is how it's always been 'splained to me.
Michael
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Schroeder,
Bob (Parts Clerk)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:50 PM
Isn't the point of the 51% rule for the sole purpose of who does the
maintenance on the plane? I build a plane for the enjoyment and because
I can't otherwise afford to own my own plane. That said, if I were in a
position to afford to have someone else build it and maintain it after
then so be it. With the van's line of aircraft you get a superior
airframe and an excellent safety record. As long as the buyer is willing
to pay for the services what difference does it make to me when I build
my own? Just a thought.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Tunnel Temps
Thanks for the info.
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Daves
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps
Used Super Soundproofing Thermal Aluminum faced fire retardant foil
one side insulator blanket from "The Super Soundproofing Company"
http://www.soundproofing.org/cgi-bin/cart.pl?
I bought six feet and had enough.
I also bought twelve feet of 1/2" soundproofing for the floors and
side panels from Wicks
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_search_results.php/search=
c3AtNTAw
Russ Daves
40044 - N710RV Flying
----- Original Message -----
From: KiloPapa
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps
Russ,
What kind of foil faced insulation did you use? What was the actual
insulating material? Where did you buy it?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
________________________________________________________________________________
My concerns with the whole building for profit thing is a couple fold.
If the quality of these mass produced -10's are low, the fleet value
will be forced down. So far it appears to be running 50/50 for the
quality of "for sale" -10's. You can fairly quickly tell who are doing
it for profit by the quality of the end product. Take John Stewart's or
Jessie's -10's for instance. They are good quality and look very nice.
While others that are shoved out the door also look like they were.
Another factor is the "personal" factor that someone has with something
they built. They will usually take better care of it and keep it
looking nice which will also help the fleet prices in the long run.
The other thing I am worried about is the insurance aspect. If
quality goes way down and we start seeing accidents for whatever reason,
we will either have a serious problem getting insurance or we can
completely forget it.
There are ton's of examples out there of 2 or more guys that build an
aircraft and one of them receives the repairman's certificate so YMMV
with the local MIDO/FSDO (can't remember which gives that out) but it
happens often. For the people that buy a homebuilt they just loose that
advantage and have to revert to the local A&P just like the rest of the
production certified fleet. If you have a fairly stock aircraft it
won't be a problem but buy something with an auto conversion or lot's of
mods and you might have some difficulties. Of course if the original
holder of the repairman's certificate is around he can always do the
condition inspection for the new owner.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Schroeder,
Bob (Parts Clerk)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 3:15 PM
Michael, what does someone do that had no hand in the building of the
aircraft and purchased it second hand. The people that built it are no
where to be found. It was 'splained to me that in order to even qualify
as the repairman for a particular experimental aircraft that (he,she)
needs to be able to document 51% of the build. If on the other hand I
just have lots of money and don't care if the local FBO rakes me over
the coals to work on my "experimental aircraft" then why would anyone
care except for the people involved? It seems to me that some people are
upset because someone else can do something that they cannot do (jealous
or some other feeling) so lets put a spot light on the situation. If
someone can sell their RV-10 for 300 G, go for it. It just makes the
market better for those that may want sell theirs later? It seems to me.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:30 PM
Actually no. The purpose of the 51% rule is about defining 51% of the
tasks to be completed by someone other than the kit manufacturer for an
experimental kit. Notice I said tasks, it's not necessarily 51% of the
construction as some things such as painting are usually considered
exempt. The rule also goes on to define what is acceptable under the
experimental certification and production is not one of them.
For the repairman's certificate it is more about being geared to the
one person that did the majority of the work but again is open to
interpretation by the FAA. There are plenty examples of 2, 3, or even 5
guys getting together to build an airplane but only one can apply for
the repairman's certificate. Again, notice I said apply for it, it
isn't something automatically granted to the builder, you need to
request it. If 5 guys equally perform 51% of the tasks no one person
would have performed more than 10.2% of the actual work but any one of
them could still get the repairman's certificate.
Or at least that is how it's always been 'splained to me.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Schroeder,
Bob (Parts Clerk)
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:50 PM
Isn't the point of the 51% rule for the sole purpose of who does the
maintenance on the plane? I build a plane for the enjoyment and because
I can't otherwise afford to own my own plane. That said, if I were in a
position to afford to have someone else build it and maintain it after
then so be it. With the van's line of aircraft you get a superior
airframe and an excellent safety record. As long as the buyer is willing
to pay for the services what difference does it make to me when I build
my own? Just a thought.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bill Reining" <wreining(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the
start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you
may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V
system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing
your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the
same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pdf
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com , and purchase
their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John Lenhardt" <av8or(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
The point of the "51% Rule" is to permit you, the amateur, to design and
build your own airplane that you can fly in the National Airspace system
without having to go the "certified" route because it is for your own
education and enjoyment. The intent is not to manufacture airplanes.
That's what we're talking about here.
If you want to build and sell airplanes, become an aircraft manufacturer
like Piper or Cessna and get the your aircraft certified to Part 23
standards.
John
#40262
----- Original Message -----
From: Schroeder, Bob (Parts Clerk)
If on the other hand I just have lots of money and don't care if the
local FBO rakes me over the coals to work on my "experimental aircraft"
then why would anyone care except for the people involved? It seems to
me that some people are upset because someone else can do something that
they cannot do (jealous or some other feeling) so lets put a spot light
on the situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often
talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the
Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have
some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic
airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd
think the thing could walk on water . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at
the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture.
While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as
using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning
and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum,
here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue
Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.p
df
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com , and
purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric
Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: F-1073 hole too large
John,
For me it would be...How much too big? Your scab patch on the inside my look sorta
OK, but as I understand it the Cleavland ports need to be installed so the
flat portion that extends out through the skin by a certain degree of thousands
of an inch, I don't recall the exact measurment to insure the ports don't siphon
air like a venturi, the small amount of protrusion makes the air "burble"
around the port so you get a true static pressure. You would not get this by
patching from behind then installing through the patch.
So I would imagine you would have to mount that port in another hole then patch
your skins, which if you scab on a patch behind the existing hole you could build
up with epoxy filler and make a flush repair. Your call.....but deep down
it's more of a cosmetic thing....and if you want to buy new skins.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"zackrv8" <zackrv8(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: F-1073 hole too large
John,
Contact Dave at rvsilverbullet(at)verizon.net . He can make you up a custom static
port to any size you want.
Zack
--------
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51208#51208
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Matronics Email List Web Server Upgrade Tonight...
Dear Listers,
This evening I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server hardware to a new Quad-processor
2.8Ghz Xeon system (yes, 4-physical CPUs!) with an Ultra 320 SCSI
Raid 5 disk system and 5GB of DDR2 RAM.
As with the older system, the new system will be running the latest version of
Redhat Linux. Most of the software configuration work is already done for the
migration, but I still have to sync all of the archive and forum data from the
old system to the new system. I am anticipating about 2 to 3 hours of downtime
for me to fully make the transition, although it could be considerable less
if everything goes according to plan.
The Matronics Webserver will be *UNavailable* from the Internet during the work,
and you will receive a time-out if you try to connect during the upgrade.
Email List Distribution will be *available* during the upgrade of the Web Server,
and List message distribution will function as normal.
This represents a significant performance upgrade for the Matronics Web Server
and you should notice nicely improved searching and surfing performance following
the upgrade!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12
Also stopped by Mistral. Same stuff as two years ago. Apparently they never
got any takers on their "discounted engine" to fly a 10 to OSH. In summer of
2004, my building partner went home to Switzerland to visit and visited the
engineers at the factory. They were unable to fly the two rotor version in
the Piper Arrow more than 30 minutes without redlining the coolant. I
watched the start of their Arrow at OSH but you should nave seen the cooling
ducts , two very large openings on the lower front cowl and two normally
size cowl openings on the top front cowl. There were two or four sets of
louvers on the aft surfaces of the cowl. The original Arrow did not have
cowl flaps but this Arrow did as well as a muffler hanging below the
aircraft. After a few computer strokes the pilot got the engine going. Also
there response to the mount problem was "we will provide a list of our
partners and send them the specs and they can build you a mount". It appears
the cowl mods would be builders problem.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:26 PM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> Subaru:
>> Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
>> suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
>> learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
>> looked like an older installed engine on display.
>
> I have to say that I was disappointed in the Eggenfellner display. No H6
> (as far as I could tell) let alone a RV-10 FWF package. Just a couple of
> older subies on rather sad looking planes.
>
>> Deltahawk:
>> Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
>> and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
>> putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
>> be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
>> 0.38 [Very good].
>
> I never got close enough to ask any questions but I did overhear them say
> their focus right now is on certification. That BSFC is eye catching. Is
> that mostly due to the inherently high compression ratios in diesels? Or
> is diesel fuel just really light ;-)
>
>> Mistral:
>> Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
>> impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
>> when I started asking about intermediate housing
>> availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
>>
>> Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
>> with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
>
> Agreed. They didn't seem too interested in even being there let alone
> answering customer questions. Just my impression though.
>
>> SMA:
>> didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
>> for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
>> market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
>
> I talked to them a bit and they have little/no interest in the
> experimental market. They said it's just too much work supporting home
> builders. Looks like a great product though. What I don't get is why
> they're so expensive? I thought one of the advantages of buying Mercedes
> blocks was economy of scale....
>
>>
>> E85 Ethanol:
>> Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
>> info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
>> but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
>> Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
>> lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
>
> I went to their forum and found it pretty interesting. A few years ago
> they took a stock mooney 201(?) and did nothing to it but increase the
> fuel flow. With only an altered bendix they flew 800 (presumably trouble
> free) hours on 88% ethanol and some additives (isopentane?). They were
> getting a BSFC of .58 or so (not so good. Typical avgas engine is
> .42-.45). At TBO, they rebuilt the engine and made some additional
> modifications (10:1 pistons, electronic ignition, vetterman exhaust, etc)
> and are now seeing BSFC of around .48-.50. I guess the main thing I took
> from it was that if they ever do get rid of 100LL, it won't take a lot of
> modification to run the ol lycosaur on ethanol.
>
>>
>> RV-12:
>> Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
>> attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
>> mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
>> Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes.
>
> I'm not a big fan of the removable wings. I suppose it seperates them from
> the other LSAs but I wonder how many people would actually trailer their
> plane home regularly. Man, I love the idea of the holes being the final
> size. Why can't they do that for all of the prepunched kits?
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Atrocious - Long Rant
Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete
disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here.
I did post that friends die in aviation so be careful coming home. We
lost an EAA chapter president this weekend. I am strongly safety
oriented. Here is my history. I have been directly in aviation since
1973, as a pilot, instructor, FAA pilot examiner, repairman and now an A
& P mechanic. For years I did mechanic related work (often but not
always under the direct/indirect supervision of an A & P). In 1996, I
became passionately involved in kit building, first as a lurker, then a
student, then a builder. In 2002, I was amazed at the money non A & Ps
were getting to build kit-built aircraft under the guise of the 51% rule
for people with money. I am talking about many former, untrained
workers of kit manufacturing companies building 51% aircraft.
Specifically the money is in excess of 6 digits per FAA approved flying
kit. These guys were getting rich. The attraction was the MONEY.
Suddenly one owner of a kit company noticed the money was not going in
his pocket but rather the non A & P - for hire builder. This action is
now casually called Builder Assist. It directly effects the intent and
interpretation of the archaic 51% rule. I began my RV-10 journey long
before the first RV-10 kit was released.
The rule is that the builder (only one individual) builds the project
for their sole education and enjoyment. Upon request, that individual
obtains a Repairman Certificate for that exact and passionate pursuit
and only that one bird. The thought was that learning would have taken
place and that individual would need to maintain that safe aircraft.
Many have bastardized that concept. Many are building more than One or
Two flying aircraft of a specific model. How does building Three or Ten
sound. The pursuit involves completing and becoming educated on the
appropriate tasks involved in a specific make and model. Obviously for
this discussion, Wood and Fabric do not apply to the RV-10. The FAA has
allowed the Engine, Firewall Forward, Avionics, Paint and Interior to be
removed from the 51% evaluation. One manufacturer has gone as far as to
ship the economic advantage outside the US of A to help builders defray
cost and time to completion. The FAA carefully evaluated that the
intent of the 51% rule was not violated.
Enter 2005, Dr. Carl Cadwell of Washington state (builder of a
beautiful Lancair IVP), he chose to purchase Rick Schrameck's first
Epic LT (made in Oregon) for his education and enjoyment (six passenger,
composite with the Beech Starship turbo-prop). Political forces,
competitive kit builders and bureaucrats became concerned at the
complexity and consequence of such an audacious build. Dr. Cadwell and
his team of friends carefully completed the project, under the watchful
eye of the factory. He carefully documented the journey. Several
competitors cried fowl and the FAA chose to block, delay and threaten to
not approve his educational pursuit. Did I mention he invested Seven
digits in this journey. Now digressing. I still coveted all that money
and envisioned a chance to build a company to assist builder's in their
dreams. Dave Saylor of Aircrafters - Watsonville, CA
http://www.aircraftersllc.com/projects/rsl4p/ is representative of a
true Builder ASSIST Shop. This does not mean to write a check, lie on
the application that education was the motivation and falsely claim the
check writer was the actual builder. I saw a value in bringing Part 23
Certification knowledge to Kit Builders. I still see value in calling
marginal or shoddy quality to the attention of builders.
Joe Bartels of Lancair Kits has done a lot to correct the corruption and
bastardization of the 51% violators with his Factory Assist program
($4,000 per week) of assistance.
Here is the rub. I took a two year sabbatical, attended FAA Approved
Part 147 school, became an A & P and took a job at a significant pay cut
to work for one of the nation's most successful regional airlines just
to get the experience and to assemble a team of professional mechanics
like Dave Saylor to assist other First Time Kit Builders. The violators
are still operating. Some of them do shoddy work. No level of quality
work can justify the willful bastardization of this unique 51% rule.
This is a US of A regulation for US citizens and foreign nationals to
come into the US of A and build the kit to Our standards. When those
kits are shipped overseas, they are intended to be certified by the
nation where manufacture takes place. Here is where all of you should
be passionately interested. When poor flight planning, poor flight
training and poor mechanical construction or mechanical difficulty come
together people die. Insurance rates are nothing more than a mirror -
those guys are in business for the money. As a result, the Lancair
builders, many who were in their third or fourth year of an expensive
education were faced with No Insurance or ridiculously high insurance
rates (back in 2003, 2004). Now who is going to gamble on the first
statistics on the RV-10. I have not yet built my Builder Assist
facilities. It will not build an aircraft for anyone. It was intended
to Assist those already pursuing the dream with additional assistance.
Now Van has been clear and he won't do Factory Assist. And yes, I asked
the first question at his Forum at OSH. "What is your company's
position and what do you hear regarding changes in the 51% rule?". Not
being shy, I bite bullets for safety every day. Now Russ you're an
attorney. All of this is on the web for any attorney to find. I am
prepared to give Expert testimony if called upon in any US of A court of
law. These violators need to be stopped before the rule is modified
which hurts individual kit builders.
John Nys, Jesse Saint, and other hired guns...the building of aircraft
with the intent of sale to third parties is an ethical violation of the
intent and it is a direct violation of this unique rule. It is time for
the FAA to clean up this dirty practice. In the memory of George
Bogardus, I call upon both of you to cease the pursuit or obtain
Certification for Production Aircraft. I personally think the 51% rule
should be enforced after the second production of any specific Make, or
Model. If you can't get the Education down by then... go to school and
become a career mechanic. Let the individual builders learn.
Many builders of the RV-10 kit do not understand the rule, may be in a
foreign country or actually want to obtain the direct education.
Writing the check is just a mater of money - education is not part of
that equation. The rest of you should know the task list, comply with
the 51% rule. http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm And don't hire
someone else to assemble the key components of the rule for you. Buying
someone else's education does not allow the acquisition of a Repairman
Certificate. Most A & Ps won't touch home builds. Sole Occupant during
the required fly off means just that... ONE SOLE ON BOARD.
I am concerned as Tim posted that such a high percentage of the original
aircraft are being quickly sold to the untrained public. Supply and
Demand is alive and well in the Home Ownership Industry... Ouch.
John Cox - $00.02
Holder of the FAA Diamond AMT Award
My apologies to our friends across the pond with string and tin can.
P.S. I am thankful for the watchful eye of the many who pointed out the
flaws and have posted pictures and descriptions of OSH '06. Build Safe,
Learn Much, don't hire professional guns masking themselves behind the
51% rule. Let me toast to your efforts next year at OSH '07
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Bruce Patton <bpattonsoa(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
When I flew off my -6A hours, there were two times when crew was required, and
defensible, at least in my opinion.
The first was when testing a "low" altitude. Full throttle 500 feet above the
ocean is not the time to be recording numbers on a data sheet.
The second was the gross weight tests. 75 lbs of sandbags in the baggage compartment
is OK, but having 250 lbs of them in the second seat is a little risky.
I used a 250 lb pilot.
Both tests were done the same day, the very last of the test flights. By then,
the aircraft was well tested , but there were data points not available for completion
of the test log.
Bruce Patton
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:48:56 PM
Ask your insurance agent who is required crew for the 10? Unless you like going
bare I would ask the agent not the FAA.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
-10's for sale in quantity, available today
Stay away from Apples on hot summer and fall nights. It could be an
Adam and Eve thing.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:30 AM
Problem is Tim under a strict interpretation of "don't do it for
money" anyone who sells a completed kitplane for $.01 more than they
paid for the kit and all associated extra parts and equipment qualifies.
I don't want to see a perfectly good airplane suddenly become a
worthless pile of aluminum and other metals because someone can't sell
an experimental bird anymore when they are done with it. I really don't
believe it will come to that, but if there are serious issues in the eys
of the Feds, this would be one way to take the profit motive out of the
equation. I'd prefer something more like limiting the number of
registrations or airworthiness certificates an individual can apply for
unless they also apply for a production cert. Enforcing the current
rules would go a long way too, and as you note, it appears the word is
getting out to the DAR's.
As is typical in this world, it is a few bad apples that could spoil
it all for the rest of us...
JKH
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Anyone read AC's Gear of the year?
That wasn't quite the one that had the same wording, but another builder
pointed me in the right direction. I put the article here:
http://www.myrv10.com/files/kitplanes/chelton/Chelton_EFIS_AC.html
It's not too bad, although it describes the certified unit which lacks
some of the features, and it describes installation as a retrofit,
which would be a huge chore compared to what us homebuilders would
do. It does make it sound pretty favorable from a useability
standpoint when compared to the G1000/Avidyne though. Too bad they
didn't do one of the Experimental unit.
Tim
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Directly copied from the artical. That is the full extent of their mention.
>
> Best EFIS Display:
> Chelton Flight Logic
> Not too long after our eyeballs had been rolled around by EFIS displays
> for the umpteenth time, we realized something: All they do is present a
> pretty picture of conventional flight instruments. Hey, it?s 2006.
> Shouldn?t there be a better way?
>
> Chelton thinks so and it delivers in its FlightLogic EFIS system, which
> we think has the most practical, imaginative and innovative display
> design of all the EFIS systems we have seen. The FlightLogic was born of
> military ethos and is thus rich with aircraft path and vector
> information and a unique three-dimensional feel that makes the other
> systems look like cardboard cutouts.
>
> Although its screens are on the small side, we found the FlightLogic
> easy to master and?this is the best part?really fun to use. The screen
> has a constant, dynamic flow of information that?s engaging and useful.
> Check out Chelton at www.chelton.com/.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
-10's for sale in quantity, available today
Ask your insurance agent. Required crew is listed in the Operations
Manual and is an ALWAYS kind of thing. FAA Wavered Airspace (at OSH) is
a great example. No GIB (guy in back) unless always required 100% of
the time and without exception - in writing. Your pilot's certificate
does not empower you to interpret that rule. Your Letter of
Authorization during Fly Off does from the DAR.
Your interpretation and that of your written voidable insurance policy
may well be at odds.
Don't bet on your assumption buying a get out of violation card. A 250#
fool does not make for a proper ballast. Oh and tongue in check, I am
down from 243# during Tim's Transitional training in N220RV to 230#.
John
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Patton
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 6:36 PM
When I flew off my -6A hours, there were two times when crew was
required, and defensible, at least in my opinion.
The first was when testing a "low" altitude. Full throttle 500 feet
above the ocean is not the time to be recording numbers on a data sheet.
The second was the gross weight tests. 75 lbs of sandbags in the
baggage compartment is OK, but having 250 lbs of them in the second seat
is a little risky. I used a 250 lb pilot.
Both tests were done the same day, the very last of the test flights.
By then, the aircraft was well tested , but there were data points not
available for completion of the test log.
Bruce Patton
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
-10's
I'm saddened to announce the death of our local EAA Chapter 245
> President in an accident at Oshkosh this past Sunday. Gary Palmer, 63,
> of Ottawa Ontario was a passenger in an RV homebuilt piloted by our
> local RAA President, Bill Reed. While holding on the ground for
> instructions, they were overtaken by a Grumman Avenger. Gary died of
> prop strike injuries on the scene and Bill escaped unscathed.
> Take care lads...this is supposed to be fun.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:01 PM
Ask your insurance agent. Required crew is listed in the Operations
Manual and is an ALWAYS kind of thing. FAA Wavered Airspace (at OSH) is
a great example. No GIB (guy in back) unless always required 100% of
the time and without exception - in writing.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Yup, I won't sign for an aircraft other than my own, because I refuse to
pay the $12,000 other IA's in the area are paying for liability insurance.
KM
A&P/IA
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> I do play one in real life. And several friends who are current IAs are
> giving it up due to insurance (>$8,000 per year). At OSH, there was a
> great seminar on financial liabilities of A & Ps touching kit built
> aircraft.
>
> Don't bet on having one help in a pinch. Select one, cultivate a
> relationship. Share your knowledge. Help. Learn. Fly Safe. Fly into
> old age gracefully. That Repairman Certificate evaporates when you stop
> working on the exact aircraft it was issued on. It is non-transferable.
> An A & P is only good while you maintain education, proficiency and have
> the appropriate tools and manuals.
>
> Seek guidance on the construction and maintenance of a great POH and
> Conditional Maintenance Manual. It can save big bucks down the road.
>
> John Cox
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
HID
Tim,
Did you use the foam tape for moisture barrier in your HID installs? Looks
like it'd keep the lens from fitting flush and letting wet in, as opposed to
keeping moisture out.
Anyone else?
Rob Wright
#392
QB Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: more on conditionals
There is the rub. On a certified aircraft you have an approved parts
manual and an approved maintenance manual and an equipment list. On
amateur built you have what you see, what the owner tells you and not
much else to go on. You don't know what the designer specified, vs what
the builder used, vs what current owner substituted, for each and every
part of the aircraft. The unknowns on a certified airplane mostly
pertain to how the pilots handle the aircraft and whether previous
mechanics have adhered to the TC and the STCs. You have a standard to
compare to..the type certificate. Plenty of expertise available from
thousands of inspections. On amateur built the unknowns are infinite, so
you have to deal with that in the condition inspection. Sure, you can
limit the inspection to wear, corrosion and signs of damage/stress. But
you won't know what is approaching its fatigue limit where there is no
database of reported difficulties, typical problems found, unlike
certified planes. You really are flying blind. So at best you get
opinion of A&P doing inspection and differing one from A&P correcting
the discrepancies, and neither one may be correct.
linn Walters wrote:
>
> Well, I don't think an A&P is going to judge a factory built during an
> annual as you describe, but since you are on and I'm not, I'll give you
> the benefit of the doubt. I don't think a conditional inspection is
> supposed to be a design critique. My conditional inspection on my Pitts
> certainly isn't.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"jdalton77" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>
Date:
Aug 01, 2006
Subject:
Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
I had the same reaction. I'm glad to hear I wasn't totally crazy (maybe
not though!)
It does have some good stuff - but nothing earth shattering.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Dawson-Townsend
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often
talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the
Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have
some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic
airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd
think the thing could walk on water . . .
TDT
40025
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics
on Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It
was excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout
at the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture.
While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as
using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning
and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum,
here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue
Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pd
f
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com, and purchase their excellent book on the
same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Respectfully:
It is not a perfect world and life is full of risks. We would be nowhere if
people throughout history had not taken risks and we are the beneficories
of those who did. All this legalistic scrutiny of inspections, kit
building, flying, etc. makes me think I should sell my kit (at a loss-don't
start in again),
my tools, and wait in my bomb shelter for the world to end.
Maybe we could start up another forum on Matronics called "Kitbuilding Gloom
and Doom".
Kevin
40494
afraid to continue my building ;)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan(at)compnetconcepts.com>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Atrocious - Long Rant
So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these
emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words together
that you don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a
critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy
workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out the help
of professionals. How can you have your cake and eat it too?
Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new
builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at
times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.
I want to build quality. However, that being said, there are many tasks
and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the world
that I will have my blemishes as well! I might have more than a couple
too!
I will work to make the primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically
acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I
hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics
walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay. In my life I
have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't equate
to good deal. I would way rather have the good deal, rather than good
looking. After all we are talking about safety, which is the
cornerstone of our insurance rates. I would rather see some cracked
paint on an airplane than a cracked skin! Who wouldn't?
So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend what
has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as
constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about
this group. I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on the
plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH. It was also an
experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't. It isn't
right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see
that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds.
Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king of
the crop at one time.
Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk up.
All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a
direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all
the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do. I would guess
that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test
where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule. Why must we
publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make
sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate with
the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your time and
results so that we can all learn. After all this whole plan it to build
a plane so that you learn.......
I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been
staring at things and just not been sure what to do. Here is how to fix
that so that we all benefit. The stuff I saw was little and most of it
didn't compromise safety. That is key, and at times, I think we loose
that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the best of
all worlds. The planes will only get better. I hate to think that
there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to bring
up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being bashed
for not "doing it right".
As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let
folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing
and violations that we are seeking to stop!
Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am
willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!!
Thanks
Jeff
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM
Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete
disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Aug 01, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Tim,
I think there is another option, slim though it may be at the moment.
Get another RV-10 pilot who DOES have time in type to do some or all of the
testing. Over time there will be more people with RV-10 time and the
insurance companies will be happy with them. You can get them covered
**probably** without anyincrease in policy as it appears your time would be
the guiding factor on the rate.
Of course there would need to be an undersanding between the two of you ..
"Save **my* SKIN, then *your* TIN".
I have two instances where I did this for friends and was FULLY covered by
their policies (by name). In one case I was much younger and the other I had
much more experience in type, so the rate did not increase.
Don't know how close you are to finishing or how close you are to someone
who could/would do it. Nor do I have any idea as to whether this is
something you would consider. I just wanted to note it for the record.
James
On 7/31/06, Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>
>
> Choices for test pilot:
> 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172
> and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
> 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the
> thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
>
> The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2)
> would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then
> pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having
> to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . .
> .
>
> TDT
> 40025
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Atrocious - Long Rant
What these last two posts are saying to me are:
Thanks for having Oshkosh this year, it allowed everyone to get their dander
up about whatever soapbox they like. Now that Oshkosh is over for this
year, let's all get settled back down to building - something - and if your
aircraft is done, build the best pinewood derby racer that you can! Channel
those emotions into fabrication!
John, how's your buildus interruptus with the static port hole? What
mending did you choose?
I ordered a new Duckworks lens for the left wing today; I had to use it when
I messed up the right wing lens. So far my costliest replacement has been a
new bottom wing skin after trying in vain with my first attempts at
installing the Gretz Pitot bracket. It was canted too much to the left for
my liking, even though Mr. Gretz said it could be somewhere around 15
degrees off center and still give completely acceptable indications.
I noticed no one jumped on the thread about transition training near
Nashville. $150/hr I can get solo time in a Piper Apache around here, maybe
even an Aztec.
Rob Wright
#392
QB Wings
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J. Morgan
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:25 PM
So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these emails,
but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words together that you
don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a critical eye
(heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy workmanship, yet the
same group blasts the folks that seek out the help of professionals. How
can you have your cake and eat it too?
Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new builder
mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at times as I tend
to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.
~snip~ *delete*
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: Atrocious - Long Rant
Atrocious - Long RantAmen.
Kevin
40494
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeffery J. Morgan
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these
emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words together
that you don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a
critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy
workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out the help
of professionals. How can you have your cake and eat it too?
Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new
builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at
times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.
I want to build quality. However, that being said, there are many tasks
and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the world
that I will have my blemishes as well! I might have more than a couple
too!
I will work to make the primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically
acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I
hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics
walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay. In my life I
have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't equate
to good deal. I would way rather have the good deal, rather than good
looking. After all we are talking about safety, which is the
cornerstone of our insurance rates. I would rather see some cracked
paint on an airplane than a cracked skin! Who wouldn't?
So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend
what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as
constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about
this group. I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on the
plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH. It was also an
experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't. It isn't
right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see
that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds.
Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king of
the crop at one time.
Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk
up. All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a
direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all
the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do. I would guess
that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test
where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule. Why must we
publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make
sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate with
the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your time and
results so that we can all learn. After all this whole plan it to build
a plane so that you learn.......
I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been
staring at things and just not been sure what to do. Here is how to fix
that so that we all benefit. The stuff I saw was little and most of it
didn't compromise safety. That is key, and at times, I think we loose
that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the best of
all worlds. The planes will only get better. I hate to think that
there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to bring
up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being bashed
for not "doing it right".
As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let
folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing
and violations that we are seeking to stop!
Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am
willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!!
Thanks
Jeff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete
disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here.
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
Missed the point. "I should sell MY kit, MY tools", "afraid to continue MY
building" .
If YOU are building YOUR kit with YOUR tools, YOUR hands, YOUR blood,YOUR
sweat & tears YOU are part of the Solution.
The problem (IMNSHO) is the guy who pays someone else to spend time
building, pays for the use of someone's else's tools, pay the hanger rent
etc etc & then claims to have "built" it himself. I sure would not want to
go back to that guy & have him do the conditional inspection.
Can a RV-10 be built in three months, SURE, throw enough money at it...start
with a QB everything & a dozen or so hands (six-ten guys as needed for their
specialty), a fully equipped shop & unlimited money. No problem.
The first P-51 (without engine) was built in 102 days and nothing was
QuickBuilt, prepunched or ordered "off the shelf".
Old plumbers saying "With an 18" Ridged pipe wrench, a place to stand & a
long enough cheater bar I can turn the world". Key word: "CHEATER". Do Not
Achieve KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA& GWB)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:24 PM
>
> Respectfully:
>
> It is not a perfect world and life is full of risks. We would be nowhere
> if people throughout history had not taken risks and we are the
> beneficories
> of those who did. All this legalistic scrutiny of inspections, kit
> building, flying, etc. makes me think I should sell my kit (at a
> loss-don't start in again),
> my tools, and wait in my bomb shelter for the world to end.
>
> Maybe we could start up another forum on Matronics called "Kitbuilding
> Gloom and Doom".
>
> Kevin
> 40494
> afraid to continue my building ;)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"don wentz" <dasduck(at)comcast.net>
Date:
Jul 31, 2006
Subject:
HID
Robert,
That foam compresses to thinner than paper, so it shouldn't affect the fit
of the lens.
Dw
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert G. Wright
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:57 PM
Tim,
Did you use the foam tape for moisture barrier in your HID installs? Looks
like it'd keep the lens from fitting flush and letting wet in, as opposed to
keeping moisture out.
Anyone else?
Rob Wright
#392
QB Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Wayne Edgerton" <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net>
Date:
Aug 01, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
I think they are building them, registering it in their name, flying off
the time and then selling it. And the argument could be made that he
built it, registered it and then decided to sell it, which is completely
legal but I think not the intent of the reg.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
do nor archive
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>
Date:
Aug 01, 2006
Subject:
Insurance and what I had to do to get coverage.
Once I had my RV-10 ready for first flight, I was only a 115
hour private pilot. I had 11 hours in my RV-9 (Constant speed) and 40
hour in a Cessna 175 with a 180 HP and constant speed prop and the rest
in 150's and 172's. Also since my RV-9 had an off field landing because
of Vapor Lock and flipped over, which totaled it, the insurance
companies did not want to insure me. So what could I do? I had a
couple of friends of mine fly off the 25 hrs. One way a 757 pilot and
an examiner. The other was his son which flies A-10's in the Air Force.
Between the two of them they tagged teamed the 25 hour fly off. The
insurance company did not require them to have time in type since they
have flown many RV's and aerobatic airplanes like a S2B Pitts. Once the
25 hrs were flown off, I started getting dual in my own RV-10 since from
an insurance perspective, the test pilots were on the policy and are the
Pilot in Command while I'm receiving dual. After 2 hours of dual with
my examiner friend, he signed off my high performance. Now I was able
to log PIC for each hour of dual I was receiving in my own plane. I
logged 25 hrs this way, while the insurance company wanted my to have
200 - 250 total time and an Instrument Rating. At this point, I
contacted a different broker to get quotes with my current 150 hours
total time. He was able to get quotes from two companies, the quotes
were high, but I was able to get them. And one was from the same
company I was already with (AIG). So two different underwriters from
AIG required different qualifications. So now I approached the
underwriter at AIG explaining we were able to get quotes from two other
companies along with one from Avemco. She finally came back the next
day and said they would cover me as is and required me to have 15 hours
of dual, which I now had 25+ and then had to have 10 hours solo before
carrying passengers. I knocked those 10 hours of solo off Friday night
and Saturday, then flew my whole family in it to Canada for a 2 week
summer vacation, then to Oskosh 2006 for 3 days.
So I guess what I'm saying is don't give up when it comes to
insurance companies, possibly look at other brokers.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
N519RV (Flying)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:41 PM
Tim,
I think there is another option, slim though it may be at the moment.
Get another RV-10 pilot who DOES have time in type to do some or all of
the testing. Over time there will be more people with RV-10 time and the
insurance companies will be happy with them. You can get them covered
**probably** without anyincrease in policy as it appears your time would
be the guiding factor on the rate.
Of course there would need to be an undersanding between the two of you
.. "Save **my* SKIN, then *your* TIN".
I have two instances where I did this for friends and was FULLY covered
by their policies (by name). In one case I was much younger and the
other I had much more experience in type, so the rate did not increase.
Don't know how close you are to finishing or how close you are to
someone who could/would do it. Nor do I have any idea as to whether this
is something you would consider. I just wanted to note it for the
record.
James
On 7/31/06, Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
Choices for test pilot:
1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172
and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the
thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option
2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX
and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably
$2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their
weekends to go to TX . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________________________________________________________
HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth
every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally
don't see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people
over on that list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of
good discussions as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff
but there is a whole lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to
his head a bit as his discussions are turning more philosophical than
actually useful. But I digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really
just a collection of very old and well proven design philosophies but
nothing ground shattering.
As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure
and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud
started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper.
Is either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different
design philosophies.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often
talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the
Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have
some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic
airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd
think the thing could walk on water . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at
the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture.
While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as
using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning
and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum,
here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue
Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.p
df
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com , and
purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric
Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
What keeps getting missed here is what we are discussing is building an
aircraft for resale. Not for learning and not for enjoyment. I don't
think anyone has criticized, at least openly, the work of another
builder who is doing it for the fun of it. Neither is anyone condemning
seeking out professional help, John Cox was even clear his intention is
to offer builders assistance.
Seeing how the foil comment was aimed at me, I just want to point out I
already said that it was temporary. However the reason I picked on this
aircraft is because it went up for sale and it had MANY other lapses in
quality. If these guys are going to build aircraft for resale, and
possibly cause all of us to eventually loose this privilege, I feel they
are open game. Not to mention if anyone is trolling this list for
information on a specific plane for sale, I think they should know about
the quality. I am certainly not building a perfect aircraft and doubt I
will meet the standards set by the likes of Debbie or John Stewart.
I don't think you made anyone mad with your email and I know I always
welcome different POV's.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan(at)compnetconcepts.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:24:34 -0500
>
>So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these
>emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words
>together that you don't see too often), that so many builders would
>take such a critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with
>shoddy workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out
>the help of professionals. How can you have your cake and eat it too?
>
>Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new
>builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at
>times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.
>I want to build quality. However, that being said, there are many
>tasks and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the
>world that I will have my blemishes as well! I might have more than a
>couple too!
>
>I will work to make the primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically
>acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I
>hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics
>walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay. In my life
>I have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't
>equate to good deal. I would way rather have the good deal, rather
>than good looking. After all we are talking about safety, which is the
>cornerstone of our insurance rates. I would rather see some cracked
>paint on an airplane than a cracked skin! Who wouldn't?
>
>So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend
>what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as
>constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about
>this group. I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on
>the plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH. It was also
>an experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't. It isn't
>right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see
>that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds.
>Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king
>of the crop at one time.
>
>Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk
up.
>All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a
>direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all
>the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do. I would guess
>that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test
>where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule. Why must we
>publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make
>sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate
>with the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your
>time and results so that we can all learn. After all this whole plan
>it to build a plane so that you learn.......
>
>I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been
>staring at things and just not been sure what to do. Here is how to
>fix that so that we all benefit. The stuff I saw was little and most
>of it didn't compromise safety. That is key, and at times, I think we
>loose that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the
>best of all worlds. The planes will only get better. I hate to think
>that there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to
>bring up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being
>bashed for not "doing it right".
>
>As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let
>folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing
>and violations that we are seeking to stop!
>
>Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am
>willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!!
>
>Thanks
>Jeff
>
>________________________________
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
>Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM
>
>
>Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete
>disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Lockamy, Jack L" <jack.lockamy(at)navy.mil>
Date:
Aug 01, 2006
Subject:
Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane. An
A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer
could elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing
a particular maintenance task. An A&P is only required to sign off the
Annual Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman
Certificate for that particular aircraft.
