RV10-Archive.digest.vol-bw
December 16, 2006 - January 02, 2007
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 496 -Antenna |
>Is that the "only" think you can conclude? What about the objective facts?
>For example, I also concluded that there are functional differences such as
>"you can't enter an airway into the 430". A fact - correct? Why, after all
>the diatribe, do you brush away all the facts and revert to subjective
>personal opinion? Worse yet, you revert to public opinion/market economics
>rather than sound science/engineering? Perhaps a proven political move -
>but very bad science/engineering!
rtitsworth,
Since you haven't figured it out, that was my way of saying that this debate is
pointless. Again, If you go back and RE-READ my first post, I stated this very
fact--there is no need for a conclusion on that since this was never debated.
I am searching for a new fact, science/engineering in your post. Tell me what facts
I have brushed away? I'm also still waiting for someone to tell me what negative
or non "sound science/engineering" comments I'm made regarding the 480.
William Curtis
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel(at)blueskyaviation.net> |
| Subject: | Cabin Top Mold Release |
Larry,
Start with water; most mold releases today are waterborne. If that does not
work go with the acetone
Noel Simmons
Blue Sky Aviation Inc
LWT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cabin Top Mold Release
Getting ready to start finishing the inside of the cabin top. There are
some large voids (surprise surprise) that have a yellow to orange
residue. Is this mold release? Should I use a solvent to remove it?
Would acetone work?
--
Larry Rosen
RV-10 #356
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel(at)blueskyaviation.net> |
The anatomy of the smokin=92 rivet.
What is smoke? The black residue that streams down wind of a rivet is
Aluminum oxide, the second hardest substance on earth with the first
being
diamonds. Aluminum oxide is a by product of corrosion that naturally
occurs. Aluminums is considered to be self lubricating, meaning it will
continue to sluff, and the aluminum oxide being harder than the base
metal
will exponentially carve more aluminum oxide out of the base metal,
A rivet that has been properly set will eventually smoke given a
structure
subjected to vibration that has been under engineered, meaning not
enough
rivets per inch. I have seen, and repaired these structures (again and
again), mostly engine nacelles on jets, fortunately or unfortunately how
every you want to look at the subject, Van=92s aircraft does not have
any
under engineered structures that would qualify for the under engineered
place to look for smoking rivets. Yes all rivet joints move to one
degree
or another so a rivet can be set in such a way that it will smoke. In
conclusion smoking rivets on RV is a builder flaw.
How to set rivets that will smoke.
First let us look at the parts that Van=92s sends us. The Punching
process is
extremely actuate, Fin Power CNC punch press have a tolerance of .004 in
8
linear feet. Van=92s has CAD people that really know their system and
can
tell the punch press exactly where to put holes. Given the .004
tolerance
there are some places on the aircraft that have the same hole in 4
sheets of
aluminum that each have this tolerance so you will see holes that are a
little hard to put a reamer through, but is still very accurate.
The punching action causes aluminum to =93flow=94. That is the cause of
the
volcano on the exit side of the sheet. This flow is not like the burr
created from using a drill bit. You must remove the volcano completely
with
out countersinking the base metal.
Below is how to cause voids and entrap, well let=92s call it =91Stuff=92
for lack
of better words, which promote the corrosive environment to create
copious
amounts of SMOKE.
1. Use a drill bit instead of a reamer.
a. Just for giggles take a =BC=94 drill bit and begin drilling a hole in
a
piece of .032 sheet metal. You will see that the hole that begins to
develop is triangular, and as the drill bit finally passes the hole is
not
truly round. This is obviously a start of voids in the rivet joint.
b. USE a Reamer they turn triangular holes into properly sized round
ones. Reamers should be used everywhere on the van=92s pre-punched
holes
2. Don=92t deburr/ deburr to deeply
a. The punching process causes a volcano like structure on the punch
exit. Not only will this cause a void but will chip the rim of the
volcano
into the joint acting like grist in a roller mill.
b. The head and or shop head will sit up on the volcano and will not
properly clamp the rivet joint.
c. Deburring to deeply is a very, very common mistake RV builder=92s
make
due to the punching process.
d. Look at some of the heavier aluminum that has been punched with
1/8=94
holes. You will see one side that is pressed in and the other side will
be
coned out like a volcano. If you take a 100 degree countersink or some
of
the other rotary deburring tools and cut this volcano off to the point
that
there is no aluminum that protrudes above the base metal you will have a
shallow countersink. This shallow countersink WILL NOT be completely
filled
by the expansion of a rivet. This is the stating point of corrosion
e. We use sand paper to deburr. The sand paper will remove the volcano
with out causing a shallow countersink. Two notes WE PRIME, WE don=92t
build
polished aircraft.
3. Dimpling / countersinking the sub structure with the same dimple as
the skin.
a. Easy test, take two small pieces of scrap aluminum and drill #30
holes, Deburr.
b. Dimple each with your #30 dimple dies.
c. Mate the two pieces and you will see that they don=92t fit very well.
This cause lots of voids and is the primary thing that RV builders do to
cause smoke.
d. Take those same two pieces of aluminum and dimple them together
using your #30 dimple dies.
i.
Better
fit isn=92t it! They don=92t rock like a bobble head doll
e. Point here is that most people don=92t dimple the substructures
(ribs)
to =93receive=94 the overlaying dimple.
f. We take a small =BD=94X 1/2=94 scrap and attach it to the male dimple
die
to dimple all the sub structure. This eliminates the rocking caused by
having two improperly formed dimples pinched together by a rivet.
g. I have seen people dimpling with the plastic sill in place, bad
idea.
h. I have seen people afraid of over dimpling so they hit the dimplier
once instead of twice (real hard). Dimpling is a forming process that
must
be complete; a half dimple will cause the skin to warp, bad idea.
Sorry if this is a little anal, I have spent many years trying to get
the
best looking rivets I can. I have piles of scrap that I drill holes in
and
look at with a magnifying glass. Rivet and inspect, change the technique
a
little here and there then drill and rivet inspect until ,In my opinion
we
do some of the finest riveting on RV=92s. Every airplane we do get=92s
a little
better and a little faster.
Noel Simmons
Blue Sky Aviation, Inc.
www.blueskyaviation.net <http://www.blueskyaviation.net/>
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Smokin Rivets
Now that builders have painted the landscape with why and why not to
drill,
then deburr, then dimple vs. deburr, dimple then drill or just skip it
all
together and just pop rivet. Let=92s move the discussion to the next
level.
I don=92t know if any RV-10s that have enough time on them yet but no
one has
addressed the cause for them, where they are likely to occur (so you can
be
watching), what corrective action can be taken or more importantly which
of
the two or three techniques being used is less likely to contribute to
them.
We are all prideful of our selected technique but a lot of builders
might
find the discussion enlightening. ' not to be confused with Lightning
and
the need for static suppression wicks.
Deems, you referenced Dan Checkoway=92s advise (the self promoted high
guru on
Sheetmetal). What say Dan?
Let=92s hear discussion about tensile vs. shear, wet rivets, use of
reams vs.
drill bits, fitment of the rivet to the opening and proper prep, or
rivets
in composite. VAN=92s says =93forgetaboutit=94 cause the RV-12 is going
to skip
steps in the effort to find a faster build and lazy group of builders.
How
about the advantages and applications of Icebox rivets, Monel or the
common
1100 rivets?
Come on Kelly ' let=92s play. During last night=92s Pacific NW storm
we were
hit by a rash of lightning strikes and smoking rivets all over the NW
(scores of aircraft).
Anyone remember Honest Abe=92s math on Four Score? We are building the
finest
High Speed, IFR cruisers at low cost out there right?
John Cox
#40600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "noel(at)blueskyaviation.net" <noel(at)blueskyaviation.net> |
| Subject: | RE: smoking rivets |
Here are some drawings I did quickly to help picture acidental
countersinking of the base metal=2E
Noel
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 496 -Antenna |
Tim my take on the two units are pretty straight forward, both will get you
from point A to point B...but the cnx 80/480 will provide you with airways and
you can calculate closest point of approach...the 480 will provide WAAS
approaches with data bases that contain these WAAS approaches. Buttons are
slightly different as are some command words. The next generation 430's will
have WAAS approaches and apparently Garmin will retro the current in the field
430's to WAAS units at some point in the future with an up charge.
When I talked to Garmin several years ago about the apparent disconnect on
the lack of Victor's in the 430/530 system their response was that they created
their units with direct flights in mind...now I've also heard from others
that at the time Garmin had a problem with memory and could not include all
the Victor's plus all the other items they designed. Maybe that's why they are
now making a major modification to update the old 430/530 with the WAAS
approaches.
Like Kelly out west, when one files up here in the east one does a lot of
Victor's before you get cleared direct. I'd think that having Victors sure
would make the routing easier than having to plug in all the way points...but
all can be done with time and charts in hand.
The MX 20 with the G1000/530 system is pretty easy but they do not have
Victor's in it either. Or at least in the last 100 hours I've flown behind it
I've yet to find a Victor airway...maybe I've got to punch a little deeper in
the sub pages...but I don't think I'll find them...I know my partner Dan has
the Victors in his system that in the 767 he drives.
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Garmin 496 -Antenna - Freeflight WAAS |
All I want to know is my MX 20, 480, SL-30 with two CDI's OK?
Rick S.
40185
heeheehee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Cabin Top Mold Release |
As Hugo stated on the lastest email concerning this topic, if it is on the
inside of the part it is lickely one of the following.
1) A lack of adequate fiberglass cloth over the core material and it is
showing through.
2) A separator film, like peel ply(Absorbant)(usually white in color) or
perforated release film plastic(non absorbant)that is laid over the part to
separate it from the next material.
3) A breather cloth which allows all the air to be removed from the project
prior to the vacuum bag touching down on the part while pulling vacuum.
4) unlikely to be the actual vacuum bag with all this other stuff in between
during the entire process.
On the outside, up against the mold, the wax they use is whiped off just
like the finish on your car, you can't see it. Over that, they use PVA(
poly vinyl acetate) an alcohol/water based release agent, green in color and
leaves a transparent film so thin it would whipe off with a sponge and
water.
In any case, it doesn't speak to well for the manufactures of the part.
John G.
>From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Cabin Top Mold Release
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:01:42 -0500
>
>
>Getting ready to start finishing the inside of the cabin top. There are
>some large voids (surprise surprise) that have a yellow to orange residue.
>Is this mold release? Should I use a solvent to remove it? Would acetone
>work?
>
>--
>
>Larry Rosen
>RV-10 #356
>http://lrosen.nerv10.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bad idea to skip section 32: Tailcone Attachment ? |
In complete agreement, I don't think you can do much of anything. Do not
even try unless you wnat to rebuild the entire thing again. I have been
working on this area for two weekends and I am skipping steps because my
wires are in the mail and my baggage floors are not riveted in yet, but the
tailcone has been on for a month now. This part seems to be going very slow
as I keep having to plan ahead as to not fall into a trap. Ordering and
waiting on mail deliveries.
John G.
>From: PJ Seipel <seipel(at)seznam.cz>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bad idea to skip section 32: Tailcone Attachment ?
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:03:25 -0500
>
>
>If you permanently attach the cabin top before you attach the tailcone,
>you're going to have a heck of a time getting the tailcone on later. I had
>a hard time getting things lined up properly with 2 people and the top wide
>open where I could see what I was doing and had access to everything, I
>can't imagine trying to do it with the cabin top in the way.
>
>I also don't think you can do a whole lot in the baggage area without the
>tailcone on.
>
>PJ
>RV-10 #40032
>
>Lorenz Malmstrm wrote:
>>
>>Hello group
>>
>>I am quickly approaching section 32 where you attach the tailcone. As I am
>>heavily shop space challenged, Id like to postpone this step as long as
>>possible. My idea is to:
>>
>>- Temporarily attach (cleco) the tailcone and do what can be done in the
>>baggage area.
>>
>>- Remove the tailcone and finish the rest of the fuselage (including cabin
>>cover).
>>
>>- Install the engine, cowling & panel.
>>
>>- Finally install the tailcone completely.
>>
>>Jesse had an image recently where the cabin cover was installed without
>>tailcone so it seems to be possible. What are the traps and gotchas with
>>this approach? What can be done in the baggage area and what not?
>>
>>Thanks everybody in advance.
>>
>>Lorenz.
>>
>>#40280
>>
>>http://www.malmstrom.ch/RV10.htm
>>
>>*
>>
>>
>>*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Below is a picture of a way to keep placing the door being trrimmed into
the same location for each fit. About 3 hours per door to get a really
nice fit.
. The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | correct door prep picture |
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0012
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Setting trailing edges of control surfaces |
Hi
When I visited a couple of builders on Oregon, one mentioned that he
wished
he used a piece of angle to ensure that his rudder edge was straight. I
did
that with my rudder and was very happy with the result. I have just
completed my elevator trailing edges the same way have achieved brutally
straight elevators.
Given that I had to muddle my way through this, I thought I would share
what
I did for the benefit of others.
I picked up a 6 ft length of angle aluminum at Rona (a Canadian version
of
Home Depot), cut it in half and proceeded to drill #40 holes in each
section. The hole spacing matching the holes in the skins. To get the
spacing right, I used the trailing edge wedge to mark the holes and
drilled
accordingly. I also made sure that the holes were not too far from the
edge
of the aluminum so that when clecoed in place, the aluminum did not
extend
beyond the trailing edge wedge on onto the "unsupported skin. I didn't
want
to mark the skin forward of the trailing edge.
After gluing the wedge in place, I clecoed a section of the aluminum
angle
to either side of the control surface putting a cleco in every hole. My
guess is that the clecos have a combined pressure in excess of anything
you
could get using the Van's recommended method. Anyway, after letting the
glue
dry I removed the clecos and riveted as per the instructions. The end
result
was rudder and elevator trailing edges that are straight as an arrow. I
did
weight the skins as required for vans but this was to ensure that the
internal foam spacers were properly set in place as the adhesive cured.
Attached is a small photo of one of the elevators with the angle
aluminum
installed.
The other small deviation from the plans was the use of LePage PL2000
adhesive rather than tank sealant to glue the wedges in place. This was
based on a recommendation of a local RV builder. Given the purpose of
the
adhesive it seems a reasonable change especially given that it is much
easier to use (no mixing) than tank sealant and cures in hours.
Cheers
Les Kearney
RV10 - # 40643 - Lost in the empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Riveting the elevators |
Hi
Page 9-12 details how to use the special elevator bucking bar. I bought
this
at Cleaveland Tools for $29 and worth every penny. I ended up using the
bucking bar to do all the rivets on the on the rear spar. After scoping
things out, I thought I could do a better job than reaching under with a
different bucking bar. I am very pleased with then end result.
When doing the rear spar, I was concerned about making sure that the
bucking
bar was placed correctly. It seemed a bit too easy to not insert the bar
all
the way. To prevent this I put the bar in and then marked a line across
the
bar where it went under the skin. This gave an easy reference to ensure
it
was always inserted fully. As well, I marked a small box centered on the
end
of the bar using a red marker. If I could see the red box through the
rivet
hole, I knew I the bar was properly centered. This may seem like
overkill to
some, but I am paranoid about riveting on the skins.
When assembling & riveting the elevators, I completed the riveting on
one
before doing the second. As a consequence I realized that a small change
in
the assembly sequence made riveting Tip Rib Assembly (steps 4- 6 Page
9-14)
a bit easier. In the case of the second elevator, I didn't rivet the
skin to
the aft spar outboard of the last E-1008 ribs. This made it much easier
to
get access to the to the Tip Rib Assembly rivets as the skin could be
lifted
much easier without fear of creasing the skin along a rivet line.
Once the Tip Rib rivets were in place, I finished riveting the skin to
the
aft spar.
Just my $0.02 from a weekend of plodding away..
Cheers
Les Kearney
RV10 # 40643 - Lost in the empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
You can check the archives and see if this is in there. But if I remember
right Jesse Saint stood his up on end and had someone stand up in the
middle.
I had mine on a piece of carpet and then filled the bottom with foam and
pillows and crawled on in. My then two year kept wanting to come in and
play, but other than that it was not that bad.
Rene' Felker
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing around
in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
I also did it this way, carpet on the floor and pillows inside. Worked
well, we had the offset back rivet from Avery, and the barbell bucking
bar from them as well.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
You can check the archives and see if this is in there. But if I
remember right Jesse Saint stood his up on end and had someone stand up
in the middle.
I had mine on a piece of carpet and then filled the bottom with foam and
pillows and crawled on in. My then two year kept wanting to come in and
play, but other than that it was not that bad.
Rene' Felker
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Me same as everyone else. Pillows, blankets, girlfriend. See below -
http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Tailcone/tailconefinish.htm
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
I also did it this way, carpet on the floor and pillows inside. Worked
well, we had the offset back rivet from Avery, and the barbell bucking
bar from them as well.
Dan
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
You can check the archives and see if this is in there. But if I
remember right Jesse Saint stood his up on end and had someone stand up
in the middle.
I had mine on a piece of carpet and then filled the bottom with foam and
pillows and crawled on in. My then two year kept wanting to come in and
play, but other than that it was not that bad.
Rene' Felker
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.
com/Navigator?RV10-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the tailcone
on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the side or top. Open
hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning in, I was able to use the
gun while my partener was on the outside with the bucking bar.
Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The flatness
of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by sitting on the saw
horses. Becareful when stretching inside while standing, to get at the
rivets towards the back, take breaks, otherwise you might get a bad cramp in
your calves and hamstrings.
John G.
>From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "matronics"
>Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>
>Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
>rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing around
>in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
>
>Dave Leikam
>40496
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
This has worked great for us.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Me same as everyone else. Pillows, blankets, girlfriend. See below -
http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Tailcone/tailconefinish.htm
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
I also did it this way, carpet on the floor and pillows inside. Worked well,
we had the offset back rivet from Avery, and the barbell bucking bar from
them as well.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
You can check the archives and see if this is in there. But if I remember
right Jesse Saint stood his up on end and had someone stand up in the
middle.
I had mine on a piece of carpet and then filled the bottom with foam and
pillows and crawled on in. My then two year kept wanting to come in and
play, but other than that it was not that bad.
Rene' Felker
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing around
in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX" <Todd.Stovall(at)pentagon.af.mil> |
All,
After reading all of the posts to this thread, are most folks
backriveting the tailcone skins vs bucking with a flush set, or did I
misunderstand some of the posts? Using the backrivet set with a bucking
bar never occurred to me. Although I'm only on my HS (ready to rivet),
the tailcone is close enough for me to begin thinking about it.
Thanks,
Todd
#40631
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
-->
Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the side
or top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning in, I was
able to use the gun while my partener was on the outside with the
bucking bar.
Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by sitting
on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while standing, to
get at the rivets towards the back, take breaks, otherwise you might get
a bad cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
John G.
>From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "matronics"
>Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>
>Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
>rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
>around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
>
>Dave Leikam
>40496
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com> |
I stuffed my petite wife into the padded tailcone for riveting while it was
resting on our EAA plans workbench. Don't worry about climbing in there if
the table or surface your tailcone is sitting on is sturdy and fully
supported. Just move slow and be careful about putting any weight on the
ribs. She bucked all the j-channel and rib rivets. When riveting the
longerons to the side skins we switched places and back riveted. That was
sure quite a site cause I'm no small guy (6'3" and big!). The rivets came
out excellent. If we were to do it again I think we would have back-riveted
the j-channel and as much else as possible.
For back riveting w/o using the steel plates we have a rather large bucking
bar that weights 5 pounds or so and has a 3" round face that we got on ebay
with our rivet gun. We are definitely faster when we can back rivet cause
you don't have to be as paranoid about unintended dimples in the skins.
Right now we are riveting the top skins to the ribs and spars. I made a 12"
back rivet set from a longer set that came with our gun from ebay. Would
have been much better to just buy one but this got us riveting over the
weekend instead of waiting for it to show up after ordering. I definitely
recommend the method of using a large bucking bar on the machine head side
flush with the skin and back-riveting wherever possible. Specially for
highly visible areas like the tailcone and wing top skins.
Ben Westfall
#40579 Wing Top Skins
Portland, OR
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing around
in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
Dave Leikam
40496
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?RV10-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
Back rivetting everything except where it is too small to get yourself in
there...and that would be for and aft of the second to last bulkhead, the
one the HS sit on.
The Use the big elevator bucking bar and lay it down on the rivets, about
ten at a time.
John G.
>From: "Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX" <Todd.Stovall(at)pentagon.af.mil>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:45:43 -0500
>
>
>
>All,
>After reading all of the posts to this thread, are most folks
>backriveting the tailcone skins vs bucking with a flush set, or did I
>misunderstand some of the posts? Using the backrivet set with a bucking
>bar never occurred to me. Although I'm only on my HS (ready to rivet),
>the tailcone is close enough for me to begin thinking about it.
>
>Thanks,
>Todd
>#40631
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 1:15 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>
>-->
>
>Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
>tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the side
>or top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning in, I was
>able to use the gun while my partener was on the outside with the
>bucking bar.
>
>Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
>flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by sitting
>on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while standing, to
>get at the rivets towards the back, take breaks, otherwise you might get
>a bad cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
>
>John G.
>
>
> >From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
> >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: "matronics"
> >Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
> >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
> >
> >Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
> >rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
> >around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
> >
> >Dave Leikam
> >40496
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailcone rivets |
John,
Shooting from the inside, did you use the back rivet set?
David Maib
#40559
tailcone
On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:14 PM, John Gonzalez wrote:
Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the
side or top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning
in, I was able to use the gun while my partener was on the outside
with the bucking bar.
Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by
sitting on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while
standing, to get at the rivets towards the back, take breaks,
otherwise you might get a bad cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
John G.
> From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
> Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> To: "matronics"
> Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>
> Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin
> tailcone rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about
> climbing around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words
> from the wiser?
>
> Dave Leikam
> 40496
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bruce breckenridge" <bbreckenridge(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: tailcone rivets |
John Jessen recorded how I did mine. I looked on his website, but just
couldn't find the pics!
I used a back rivet plate; flipped the cone over on it's top and made sure
it was on the plate. Because the cone overhung my table, I could stand in
the hole of the missing forward top skin and lean into the cone. To be sure
I was flat on the back rivet plate, I used a 1" (or so) round stick-on
bubble level laid right next to the rivet I was going to smash. Because it
was a little bit of a tight fit between the stringers, I could lean left or
right and the cone would rotate until the bubble was centered. I don't
recall having to drill out any of the rivets set with this method.
Hopefully, John will pipe in and direct you to his website where this
technique is documented.
Bruce Breckenridge
40018 Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | door latched security system |
I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins.
For flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of
its usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the
wiring and designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is
red when the door is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing
relays).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JSMcGrew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
I installed all 4 magnetic switches and connected them in series to my
Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 engine monitor. Part of my checklist is to ensure
the doors are closed both manually and by ensuring the "DOORS" indicator is
extinguished on the display. If I forget, it gives an audible warning "CANOPY"
when the RPM exceeds 1500. Hearing that would be a good reason to abort a
takeoff.
I'm happy with the way it works. I set the magnets just right: the system
caught a passenger who had properly engaged the door latch, but had not locked
the handle all the way down. Overall, it was easy because of my engine
monitoring system, however, I wasn't very interested in wiring up that relay system
they sent.
I used one of the unused warning lights as a stall warning light. I'd
noticed Van's had done that in N220RV. The light sits directly over my PFD and
comes on along with the supplied stall buzzer.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/18/2006 8:46:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:
I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible RV10
both
occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light system was
installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified system or just depend
on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For flying 10s: have you
installed the warning light system? Opinion of its usefulness? For building 10s:
are you installing? I have run the wiring and designed a simpler system
whereby a light for each side is red when the door is unlatched (without all the
automotive reversing relays).
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List)
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
_http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailcone rivets |
Stand the thing up and stand inside it. Back rivet all but a couple of
rivets. My fifteen year old son on the outside with the bar and me on
the inside driving rivits.
Finished the cone tonight. Happy:)
Thanks for the tip Jesse.
Dave Leikam
40496
empanage assembly!
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Maib" <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>
> John,
>
> Shooting from the inside, did you use the back rivet set?
>
> David Maib
> #40559
> tailcone
>
> On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:14 PM, John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
>
> Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
> tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the
> side or top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning
> in, I was able to use the gun while my partener was on the outside
> with the bucking bar.
>
> Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
> flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by
> sitting on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while
> standing, to get at the rivets towards the back, take breaks,
> otherwise you might get a bad cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
>
> John G.
>
>
>> From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
>> Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> To: "matronics"
>> Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>>
>> Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin
>> tailcone rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about
>> climbing around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words
>> from the wiser?
>>
>> Dave Leikam
>> 40496
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailcone rivets |
I should have said, "I never placed my weight inside." The saw horses held
it upside down on the flat spots on the rear where the HS sits and in the
front where the longerons are without the most forward top skin on. Also
lay it on it side, right or left because the sides are flat.
Was on my knees, up inside, like a pup tent, shooting up or out to the side
while the freind was on the outside. Yes, back riveted everything I could.
I got pretty contorted, back, neck and thighs get twisted and lower legs
fell asleep a few times.
I have tried throughout the project to minimize putting any weight on the
parts before complete assembly into a rigid structure. Never want to build
in a warp albeit unlikely with all the indexed dimples and clecoes, but why
risk it. Plus each bulkhead is so flimsy by itself, but once together with
everything else, it's one strong unit.
Make sure you and your helper are on the same rivet!!!!! They cover the
rivet with the plate or bucking bar, on the outside and they say,"Ready"
they you put the back rivet gun tip on the rivet and say" Ready" then they
say, "Go"
Lower the pressure and a quick fire and never fire again, unless you let
them know by going through the same ritual.
The guy that was hunting with Chenny taught me this technique after his
incident. Unlikely that you will have an accident if you follow this plan.
Alcoholic beverages are also not a good thing before hunting, opps, I mean
riveting.
John G.
>From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:26:12 -0600
>
>
>John,
>
>Shooting from the inside, did you use the back rivet set?
>
>David Maib
>#40559
>tailcone
>
>On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:14 PM, John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
>Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
>tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the side or
>top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning in, I was able
>to use the gun while my partener was on the outside with the bucking bar.
>
>Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
>flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by sitting
>on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while standing, to get
>at the rivets towards the back, take breaks, otherwise you might get a bad
>cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
>
>John G.
>
>
>>From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
>>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: "matronics"
>>Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>>
>>Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin tailcone
>>rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about climbing
>>around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words from the wiser?
>>
>>Dave Leikam
>>40496
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailcone rivets |
Every bit of this tailcone riveting discussion is being digested by this
builder despite the archives. Thanks! and HA HA!
Keep it up.
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I should have said, "I never placed my weight inside." The saw horses
> held it upside down on the flat spots on the rear where the HS sits
> and in the front where the longerons are without the most forward top
> skin on. Also lay it on it side, right or left because the sides are
> flat.
>
> Was on my knees, up inside, like a pup tent, shooting up or out to the
> side while the freind was on the outside. Yes, back riveted
> everything I could. I got pretty contorted, back, neck and thighs get
> twisted and lower legs fell asleep a few times.
>
> I have tried throughout the project to minimize putting any weight on
> the parts before complete assembly into a rigid structure. Never want
> to build in a warp albeit unlikely with all the indexed dimples and
> clecoes, but why risk it. Plus each bulkhead is so flimsy by itself,
> but once together with everything else, it's one strong unit.
>
> Make sure you and your helper are on the same rivet!!!!! They cover
> the rivet with the plate or bucking bar, on the outside and they
> say,"Ready" they you put the back rivet gun tip on the rivet and say"
> Ready" then they say, "Go"
>
> Lower the pressure and a quick fire and never fire again, unless you
> let them know by going through the same ritual.
>
> The guy that was hunting with Chenny taught me this technique after
> his incident. Unlikely that you will have an accident if you follow
> this plan. Alcoholic beverages are also not a good thing before
> hunting, opps, I mean riveting.
>
> John G.
>
>
>> From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
>> Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:26:12 -0600
>>
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Shooting from the inside, did you use the back rivet set?
>>
>> David Maib
>> #40559
>> tailcone
>>
>> On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:14 PM, John Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Never had to get inside. Used two saw horses and kept flipping the
>> tailcone on its side while I accessed through the open hole in the
>> side or top. Open hole is the forward tailcone skin off. Leaning
>> in, I was able to use the gun while my partener was on the outside
>> with the bucking bar.
>>
>> Put down a lot of foam to protect your knees from the ground. The
>> flatness of the tailcone side skins allows all this to happen by
>> sitting on the saw horses. Becareful when stretching inside while
>> standing, to get at the rivets towards the back, take breaks,
>> otherwise you might get a bad cramp in your calves and hamstrings.
>>
>> John G.
>>
>>
>>> From: "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
>>> Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>>> To: "matronics"
>>> Subject: RV10-List: tailcone rivets
>>> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0600
>>>
>>> Anyone have any good advice as to how to get at the top skin
>>> tailcone rivets? No one in my family is small. I also worry about
>>> climbing around in there and bending or denting somthing. Words
>>> from the wiser?
>>>
>>> Dave Leikam
>>> 40496
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vicki Jones" <vickiajones(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance |
The clearance between the oil sump on my Mattituck TMXIO-540 D4A5 and the
lower mount
tube is 1/8". I have heard that Van's recommends a minimum of 3/16" but
prefers 1/2".
Has anyone had a 1/8" clearance but not had the modification completed by
Vans? If so, have you had any problems?
Thanks,
Vicki
_________________________________________________________________
Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get
it now
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
| Subject: | RE: tailcone rivets |
Bruce, I had to hide them because it's a family web site. That rear shot of
your was just to provocative.
Try this:
http://www.soundingsresearch.com/RV-10/Techniques/Techniques_08.htm
Also, I noticed some screwy things happening on the site, and at least one
person has pointed this out to me. I'll try to get it fixed today. Still
an amateur at this stuff.
John Jessen
#40328 (bah humbug to all this Holiday stuff; got me some deburrrrrrrring
to do)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bruce
breckenridge
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RE: tailcone rivets
John Jessen recorded how I did mine. I looked on his website, but just
couldn't find the pics!
I used a back rivet plate; flipped the cone over on it's top and made sure
it was on the plate. Because the cone overhung my table, I could stand in
the hole of the missing forward top skin and lean into the cone. To be sure
I was flat on the back rivet plate, I used a 1" (or so) round stick-on
bubble level laid right next to the rivet I was going to smash. Because it
was a little bit of a tight fit between the stringers, I could lean left or
right and the cone would rotate until the bubble was centered. I don't
recall having to drill out any of the rivets set with this method.
Hopefully, John will pipe in and direct you to his website where this
technique is documented.
Bruce Breckenridge
40018 Wings
--
1:45 PM
--
1:45 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: door latched security system - Door Closer |
Anyone have a solution to add a rear handle. How would it attach to the
fiberglass door? Would any reinforcement be necessary.
Here is a photo of the Lancair closer
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/door%5Fhandle/>
and also what looks like one on Vic's RV-10
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-13.html>
Larry Rosen
#356
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> there is no rear handle.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long straight
edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller parts. I'm
thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently curving skins
on the tailcone.
Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
What do you do?
Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they are
using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'. Would
you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks for the
tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet that will
need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
Thanks all,
Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
tab" Watson #40605
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Stall Warning and/or AOA |
| From: | "Michael Wellenzohn" <michael(at)wellenzohn.net> |
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into the wing
or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82466#82466
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
back side?
Larry
MauleDriver wrote:
>
> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
> curving skins on the tailcone.
>
> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
> Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
> What do you do?
>
> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'.
> Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks
> for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet
> that will need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
> Thanks all,
> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
> tab" Watson #40605
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
>how do I debur the back side?
Use a Cogsdil Burraway tool.
<http://www.cogsdill.com/pdf%20files/usdeb_burraway.pdf>
Nifty little tool...
-Jim 40384
Larry Rosen wrote:
>
> Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
> cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
> back side?
>
> Larry
>
> MauleDriver wrote:
>>
>> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
>> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
>> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
>> curving skins on the tailcone.
>>
>> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of
>> work? Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't
>> know. What do you do?
>>
>> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
>> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
>> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the
>> 'volcanoes'. Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's
>> flat? BTW, thanks for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap
>> for dimpling sheet that will need to accept another dimpled piece.
>> Will be trying that.
>>
>> Thanks all,
>> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
>> tab" Watson #40605
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Stall Warning and/or AOA |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Went with only AOA. Riveted stall warning holes closed with 426 3-3
rivets.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Stall Warning and/or AOA
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into
the wing or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82466#82466
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
One of the tols I think works great are the fingernail emory boards, not the
normal ones with the red/brown/orange sandpaper, but the ones with the black
sandpaper and thick sanding core backing. There are two grits one on each
side.
John
>From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: RV10-List Digest Server
>Subject: RV10-List: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks
>Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:47:07 -0500
>
>
>I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long straight
>edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller parts. I'm
>thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently curving skins on
>the tailcone.
>
>Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
>Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know. What
>do you do?
>
>Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole deburring
>- can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they are using a block
>on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'. Would you wait until
>after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks for the tip about using a
>dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet that will need to accept another
>dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
>Thanks all,
>Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim tab"
>Watson #40605
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel(at)blueskyaviation.net> |
| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
In certain cases you can deburr like piper aircraft.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks
Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
back side?
Larry
MauleDriver wrote:
>
> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
> curving skins on the tailcone.
>
> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
> Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
> What do you do?
>
> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'.
> Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks
> for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet
> that will need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
> Thanks all,
> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
> tab" Watson #40605
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> |
| Subject: | Skin Edge Deburring |
I see some discussion today about edge deburring, and thought I'd
share a method I learned from another 10 builder (Nick Gautier) a
couple of miles from me. This technique has cut my edge deburring
time from 15-20 minutes per large skin down to 2-3 minutes and it is
unbelievably simple:
Take a curved tooth file (with the handle removed) and run it
lengthwise flat to the edge of the skin. On the return trip, run the
file lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to the top side of the edge and
make a final pass with the file lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to
the bottom side of the edge.
The result is an edge that is far smoother than anything I've been
able to accomplish with my double edge deburring tool... or any other
method I've fumbled around with.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | door latched security system |
| From: | "Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com> |
Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
Vern (#324 fuselage)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at
the top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the
inherant nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue
IMHO. The windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
>If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
>glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
>shells?
>Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
>and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
>add some weight to the doors.
>
>Vern (#324 fuselage)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com> |
I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the
unit. I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize
an approaching stall.
I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is
one of the first things that one goes over in the training.
Fred Williams
40515
working on wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: door latched security system - Door Closer |
I plan to add a rear handle and the easy way to do it is create a couple of
1/2" circular hardpoints in the doors then drill and tap. Also considering
adding another hand inserted pin for each door at the rear.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system - Door Closer
>
> Anyone have a solution to add a rear handle. How would it attach to the
> fiberglass door? Would any reinforcement be necessary.
>
> Here is a photo of the Lancair closer
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/door%5Fhandle/>
> and also what looks like one on Vic's RV-10
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-13.html>
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>> there is no rear handle.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com> |
I believe you can order an AOA that is calibrated for the RV-10. Mine was
and it works great.
Mark (N410MR Flying)
>From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: AOA
>Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:00:57 -0600
>
>
>
>I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
>device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
>understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the unit.
>I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize an
>approaching stall.
>
>I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is one
>of the first things that one goes over in the training.
>
>Fred Williams
>40515
>working on wings.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Rob at AFS has a predefined profile for the -10 built into his units
that is supposed to be fairly accurate out of the box.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: RV10-List: AOA
I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the
unit. I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize
an approaching stall.
I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is
one of the first things that one goes over in the training.
Fred Williams
40515
working on wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Setting the elevator trim tab hinge |
Hi
A local builder passed on his method for getting perfect alignment of
the
elevator trim tab when installing the piano hinge. Based on his
instruction
this is what I did:
* Cut a piece of thin aluminum stock into a template strip the
same
size as the hinge to be installed.
* Cleco clamped the template strip to the trim tab as if it was
the
hinge matching sure that the inboard side lined up with the trim tab
* Match drilled the template to the trim tab and clecoed every
hole
* Fitted the trim tab with the template piece in place to the
elevator setting up the alignment desired (a piece of angle aluminum
made a
great straight edge for alignment)
* Matched drilled a few holes on the elevator side of the
template
(roughly evenly spaced)
* Drew a rivet line on the trim tab side of the piano hinge and
cleco clamped the template to it. Care was taken to ensure that the
rivet
line went through the center of each hole on the trim tab side of the
template.
* Match drilled the piano hinge using the template. All the
holes,
including the few on the elevator side were drilled.
* The piano hinge was clecoed to the trim tab and the elevator
and
all remaining holes were match drilled.
At that pointed I riveted everything together. The end result is a trim
tab
trailing edge that exactly matches the trailing edge of the elevator. As
well the outboard alignment is exact as well. I guess this method works
so
well because it eliminates using the piano hinge for whole alignment
(there
is a small bit of play in the hinge).
Attached are three of pictures.
* One shows the template installed (I had to redo it because I didn't
size it correctly so it doesn't match the next photo). The template
still
has the blue vinyl sheath still on so it is quite visible where the
hinge is
to be installed.
* The next shows the alignment of the trim tab to the elevator after I
had match drilled a couple of holes on the elevator side of the
template.
The angle aluminum at the bottom was used to set the alignment.
* The final photo shows the end result
Cheers
Les
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JSMcGrew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
I built in both AOA and the standard stall warning. The stall warning works
very well once the tab is adjusted correctly. Even more importantly my RV-10
really lets me know when it is going to stall. After training with Mike
Seager and practice during flight testing I would have to be extremely distracted
to miss the buffet and feel of the airplane before it stalls (actual mileage
may vary).
Maybe I failed to calibrate the AOA system correctly the first, second or
third times, but I can't get it to provide useful information. Additionally, the
"AOA PUSH!" voice is extremely distracting during slow flight, take off and
flare to land. (The calibration was bad on my first flight and I had to
listen to that voice continuously during my first flight - as if I didn't have
enough to deal with). I loved AOA in the T-38 and F-15. In theory, it is a very
nice back up system to have on board. I haven't given up yet, but I am
struggling to get it to provide useful information in the RV-10.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/19/2006 12:57:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
michael(at)wellenzohn.net writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Michael Wellenzohn"
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into the
wing or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JSMcGrew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
-----------------------------1166567309--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JSMcGrew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
Just to follow up on my previous post. Overall, my recommendation is:
If you are on the fence about getting AOA, get it. But, keep Van's stall
warning system as well.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/19/2006 5:31:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JSMcGrew(at)aol.com writes:
I built in both AOA and the standard stall warning. The stall warning works
very well once the tab is adjusted correctly. Even more importantly my RV-10
really lets me know when it is going to stall. After training with Mike
Seager and practice during flight testing I would have to be extremely distracted
to miss the buffet and feel of the airplane before it stalls (actual mileage
may vary).
Maybe I failed to calibrate the AOA system correctly the first, second or
third times, but I can't get it to provide useful information. Additionally,
the "AOA PUSH!" voice is extremely distracting during slow flight, take off and
flare to land. (The calibration was bad on my first flight and I had to
listen to that voice continuously during my first flight - as if I didn't have
enough to deal with). I loved AOA in the T-38 and F-15. In theory, it is a very
nice back up system to have on board. I haven't given up yet, but I am
struggling to get it to provide useful information in the RV-10.
Jim
40134
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Patton <bpattonsoa(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Skin Edge Deburring |
Yes, but always wear a leather glove. If you slip off the edge, the result
is a nice long cut.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jeff Carpe
nter =0ATo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday
, December 19, 2006 11:30:22 AM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Skin Edge Deburring
s.com>=0A=0AI see some discussion today about edge deburring, and thought I
'd =0Ashare a method I learned from another 10 builder (Nick Gautier) a
=0Acouple of miles from me. This technique has cut my edge deburring =0At
ime from 15-20 minutes per large skin down to 2-3 minutes and it is =0Aun
believably simple:=0A=0ATake a curved tooth file (with the handle removed)
and run it =0Alengthwise flat to the edge of the skin. On the return tri
p, run the =0Afile lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to the top side of the
edge and =0Amake a final pass with the file lengthwise at a 45 degree angl
e to =0Athe bottom side of the edge.=0A=0AThe result is an edge that is fa
r smoother than anything I've been =0Aable to accomplish with my double ed
ge deburring tool... or any other =0Amethod I've fumbled around with.=0A
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Door latch and Weld-On for windows |
Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the original design is no
t sufficient for some is interesting. I would be curious to see some of
the planes that are having an issue as to whether #1 : The door was f
it and mounted well. #2 : Is the interior cloth/leather on the door i
mpacting how it closes PRIOR to finishing it? It seems a lot of the t
imes our modifications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how th
e plane was designed to work. We wonder after we get all done why it w
eighs 90 lbs. more than other RV10's. Just a thought.
Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that they do
not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut plates w
hich they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On. The we
bsite and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months. I was told NO.
.......it is only a 6 month shelf life! Could this be the cause of some
of the CRACKING around the windows we are seeing on the RV10? Sure wou
ld be nice if Van told people to NOT order the Weld-on until they are re
ady to use it! I know when we got ours it was already on the shelf for
3 months. Hopes this saves others some trouble.
Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :)
Venting,
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the origina
l design is not sufficient for some is interesting. I would be cur
ious to see some of the planes that are having an issue as to whether&nb
sp; #1 : The door was fit and mounted well. #2 :
Is the interior cloth/leather on the door impacting how it closes PRIOR
to finishing it? It seems a lot of the times our modi
fications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how the plane was d
esigned to work. We wonder after we get all done why it weig
hs 90 lbs. more than other RV10's. Just a thought.
Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that
they do not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut
plates which they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On.
The website and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months.&nb
sp; I was told NO........it is only a 6 month shelf life! Could th
is be the cause of some of the CRACKING around the windows we are seeing
on the RV10? Sure would be nice if Van told people to NOT order t
he Weld-on until they are ready to use it! I know when we got ours
it was already on the shelf for 3 months. Hopes this saves others
some trouble.
Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :)
Venting,
Dean 40449
______________________
__________________________________________________
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