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      NC40GXAve3PXCoIjMp3xCnP9wGFr1P/Z
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Subject: 
Re: : RV10-List:
      
      
      Just a word of caution when going for the local HD or Lowes aviation 
      department....
      
          I have bought STAINLESS hardware there before, and after being out 
      in the weather for one summer, it rusted! Obviously its a low grade 
      stainless. I don't know if the stainless on the locks (is it even 
      stainless?) is any better.
      
      -Jim 40384, Riveting Left outboard wing skins... Woohoo!
      
      W. Curtis wrote:
      
      > John,
      >
      > Try the Lowes (or Home Depot) aviation department.
      >
      > These are standard cabinet locks. The 5/8 First Watch unit (#66345) in 
      > the picture was $3.97.
      >
      > http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/08Fuselage/images/Fuselage34a.jpg
      >
      > William Curtis
      > http://nerv10.com/
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: 
Aluminum Stock Question
      
      Hi
      
      
      I managed to gibble one of my pieces of 1" x 1" X 1/8" aluminum stock 
      fabbed
      into a tail cone part. IS there anything *special* about the aluminum 
      stock
      used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the Home Deport Aviation
      department.
      
      
      Inquiring minds need to know.
      
      
      Les Kearney
      
      RV10 #40643 - Lost in the empennage
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
      I have no idea what they use in Home Depot.. I don't think its 6061. I 
      don't think they even label it!
      
      I would skip that part for now, order some more from Van's or Spruce and 
      do it with known materials...
      
      -Jim 40384
      
      Les Kearney wrote:
      
      > Hi
      >
      > I managed to gibble one of my pieces of 1 x 1 X 1/8 aluminum stock 
      > fabbed into a tail cone part. IS there anything **special** about the 
      > aluminum stock used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the 
      > Home Deport Aviation department.
      >
      > Inquiring minds need to know.
      >
      > Les Kearney
      >
      > RV10 #40643  Lost in the empennage
      >
      >*
      >
      >
      >*
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hilger" <ninepapa(at)bendbroadband.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
      
      Les
      
      It looks like the part you are refering to is an aluminum angle that 
      helps attach the HS to the tailcone.
      
      Probably should get more material Van's.
      
      John
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Les Kearney 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:46 AM
        Subject: RV10-List: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
        Hi
      
      
        I managed to gibble one of my pieces of 1" x 1" X 1/8" aluminum stock 
      fabbed into a tail cone part. IS there anything *special* about the 
      aluminum stock used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the Home 
      Deport Aviation department.
      
      
        Inquiring minds need to know.
      
      
        Les Kearney
      
        RV10 #40643 - Lost in the empennage
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
      
      Lowes and Home Depot do not sell aviation quality aluminum as far as I 
      know.  As a matter of fact, I don't know what alloy or temper the stuff 
      is at the home stores.  Buy from Van's or Aircraft Spruce the correct 
      raw stock, the stuff at Home Depot is only good for aluminum windows..
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aluminum Stock Question
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      I tried welding the aluminum found at the Aviation Department of HD to
      create a carriage with heavy duty castors for my growing tool box.  It
      was clearly junk aluminum and I won't go there for aviation grade
      structural parts.
      
      
      John Cox #40600 
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:47 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
      Hi
      
      
      I managed to gibble one of my pieces of 1" x 1" X 1/8" aluminum stock
      fabbed into a tail cone part. IS there anything *special* about the
      aluminum stock used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the Home
      Deport Aviation department.
      
      
      Inquiring minds need to know.
      
      
      Les Kearney
      
      RV10 #40643 - Lost in the empennage
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Chris" <toaster73(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
      
      You will notice too that the home depot/lowes Al does not have a nice 
      fillet in the corner as the aviation grade.
      -Chris Lucas
      #40072
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
      John,
      
      I heard a rumor that you didn't particularly like the aviation  aluminum 
      currently being used by Van's and were now formulating your own alloy  
      specifically for the RV-10! Is there any truth to that?
      
      If not, my bad.
      
      :)
      
      Jim
      
      In a message dated 1/20/2007 5:17:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
      johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com writes:
      
      
      I tried welding the  aluminum found at the Aviation Department of HD to 
      create a carriage with  heavy duty castors for my growing tool box.  It was 
      clearly 
      junk aluminum  and I won=99t go there for aviation grade structural pa
      rts. 
      
      John  Cox  #40600  
      
      
      ____________________________________
      
      From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:47  AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Aluminum Stock  Question
      Hi 
      I managed to gibble one of my  pieces of 1=9D x 1=9D X 1/8
      =9D aluminum stock 
      fabbed into a tail cone part. IS there  anything *special* about the  alumin
      um 
      stock used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the Home Deport  Aviat
      ion 
      department. 
      Inquiring minds need to  know. 
      Les Kearney 
      RV10 #40643 =93 Lost in the  empennage 
      
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      
      
      http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List) 
      
      
      Jim "Scooter"  McGrew
      _http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
"W. Curtis" <wcurtis(at)core.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      The Lowes/Home Depot aluminum IS 6061 aluminum but there are two problems with
      it.  First, they do NOT specify the temper so you have no idea if it is T6, and
      second it has NO radius on the inner sections like the Van's stuff.  
      
      Try spruce, just avoid the stuff that they have that also has no inner radius.
      
      http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/alumangle.php
      
      
      William Curtis
      http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aluminum Stock Question
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      I do have a close friend who manages one of the world's largest
      anodizing operations but my aluminum foundry pot lines are down due to
      exorbitant electric rates from all the RV builders working winter hours.
      Since VAN is down the street and the QC on such products are acceptable.
      I no longer patron HD Aviation Department for production parts.
      
      
      John Cox 
      the Turbanator #40600 
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:17 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
      John,
      
      
      I heard a rumor that you didn't particularly like the aviation aluminum
      currently being used by Van's and were now formulating your own alloy
      specifically for the RV-10! Is there any truth to that?
      
      
      If not, my bad.
      
      
      :)
      
      
      Jim
      
      
      In a message dated 1/20/2007 5:17:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com writes:
      
      	I tried welding the aluminum found at the Aviation Department of
      HD to create a carriage with heavy duty castors for my growing tool box.
      It was clearly junk aluminum and I won't go there for aviation grade
      structural parts.
      
      	 
      
      	John Cox #40600 
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      
      	From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
      	Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:47 AM
      	To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      	Subject: RV10-List: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      	 
      
      	Hi
      
      	 
      
      	I managed to gibble one of my pieces of 1" x 1" X 1/8" aluminum
      stock fabbed into a tail cone part. IS there anything *special* about
      the aluminum stock used by Vans or can I just go and get some from the
      Home Deport Aviation department.
      
      	 
      
      	Inquiring minds need to know.
      
      	 
      
      	Les Kearney
      
      	RV10 #40643 - Lost in the empennage
      
      	 
      
      	 
      	 
      	http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> 
      	http://forums.matronics.com  
      	 
      	 
      	 
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
      m
      /Navigator?RV10-List
      	.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
      	 
      
      
      Jim "Scooter" McGrew
      http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      William
      
      
      I am getting a very fast education on a/c aluminum. The stock I purchase 
      is
      stamped ASTM B308 which means it is 6061 T6 stock. As well, I made sure 
      that
      there was an inner radius as well. 
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Les
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W. Curtis
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:09 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aluminum Stock Question
      
      
      The Lowes/Home Depot aluminum IS 6061 aluminum but there are two 
      problems
      with it. First, they do NOT specify the temper so you have no idea if it 
      is
      T6, and second it has NO radius on the inner sections like the Van's 
      stuff. 
      
      Try spruce, just avoid the stuff that they have that also has no inner
      radius.
      
      http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/alumangle.php
      
      
      William Curtis
      http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
rv10builder <rv10builder(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Battery Charger?
      
      
      I've installed in my semi-completed -10 the the Van's recommended 
      Concorde RG-25XC and need to put it on charge while it's sitting in the 
      garage.  Any recommendations for a small, three-step charger?  Here are 
      a couple I have found:
      
      batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=4
      northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_197012_197012
      
      Thanks in advance!
      
      Brian
      #40308
      http://www.mykitlog.com/rv10builder
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 20, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
      
      
      Battery  Tender has worked great for me in my car and motorcycle for trickle 
      and full recharging.
       I recommend it as a very good option.
      
      Pascal
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "rv10builder" <rv10builder(at)bellsouth.net>
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:38 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Battery Charger?
      
      
      >
      > I've installed in my semi-completed -10 the the Van's recommended Concorde 
      > RG-25XC and need to put it on charge while it's sitting in the garage. 
      > Any recommendations for a small, three-step charger?  Here are a couple I 
      > have found:
      >
      > batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=4
      > northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_197012_197012
      >
      > Thanks in advance!
      >
      > Brian
      > #40308
      > http://www.mykitlog.com/rv10builder
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
      
      Check this one out............it is the size of a pack of gum.  Ordered 
      mine last week.  This is the best price site on it also..
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      
Check this one out............it is the size of a pack of gum.&
      nbsp; Ordered mine last week.  This is the best price site on it al
      so..
      
Dean 40449
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Pitch Trim Bellcrank Assembly
From: 
"dmaib(at)mac.com" <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      Worked on the trim bellcrank assembly last night and seemed to have some rotational
      binding of the F-1095B bellcrank when assembled. We took it apart and sanded
      the two thin spacer washers as instructed. We went through this drill a couple
      of times without much improvement. The bellcrank moves very freely on the
      bolt, but is still binding a bit on the spacer washers. I am wondering just how
      free the bellcrank should rotate. I would hate to get it to the point where
      I begin to have side play.
      
      --------
      David Maib
      RV-10 #40559
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89217#89217
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      SafeAir1 has one with a connector that can be accessed from the oil filler 
      door.
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "rv10builder" <rv10builder(at)bellsouth.net>
      Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:38 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Battery Charger?
      
      
      >
      > I've installed in my semi-completed -10 the the Van's recommended Concorde 
      > RG-25XC and need to put it on charge while it's sitting in the garage. 
      > Any recommendations for a small, three-step charger?  Here are a couple I 
      > have found:
      >
      > batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=4
      > northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_197012_197012
      >
      > Thanks in advance!
      >
      > Brian
      > #40308
      > http://www.mykitlog.com/rv10builder
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
MikeEasley(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
TruTrak DFC 250 AS For Sale
      
      
      I have a TruTrak DFC 250 AS autopilot for sale.  It's been in my plane  for a 
      couple years and now I'm replacing it with a Sorcerer.  TruTrak will  only 
      discount the Sorcerer $2,100 if I trade in my DFC 250.  I thought  there might
      
      be someone out there who didn't care about GPSV and would like a  great deal on
      
      the autopilot.  The Sorcerer slides into the exact same tray,  same wiring, 
      etc. so the buyer would get the brand new Sorcerer tray and  hardware.  You 
      would need to buy servos, about $2,200 for an RV 10.
      
      I'm not making any money on this, just thought someone would want just  about 
      all the bells and whistles TruTrak offers for about half price.   First 
      $2,100 get it.
      
      Mike Easley
      Colorado Springs
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
From: 
Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com>
Subject: 
Re: Pitch Trim Bellcrank Assembly
      
      
      David,
      
      I just finished this step last night and had the same problem/question.  
      You do want free motion with no play and that means: The washers need to 
      be thinned A LOT!!!.  If you have the right measuring tools you can 
      measure the gap and then sand away at the washers until the two of them 
      equal the size of the gap.  From these measurements you will see that 
      you need to do a lot of sanding.  This may sound silly but I taped 
      (double sided) them to my index and middle finger and went back and 
      forth on a file (pausing occasionally to let my fingers cool down).  It 
      took about 400 strokes on the file to get them to my target dimensions.  
      Then I installed them,  no side play and smooth running.  No magic 
      bullet here.  Just some work.
      
      Dave Lammers
      fuselage
      
      dmaib(at)mac.com wrote:
      
      >
      >Worked on the trim bellcrank assembly last night and seemed to have some rotational
      binding of the F-1095B bellcrank when assembled. We took it apart and sanded
      the two thin spacer washers as instructed. We went through this drill a couple
      of times without much improvement. The bellcrank moves very freely on the
      bolt, but is still binding a bit on the spacer washers. I am wondering just
      how free the bellcrank should rotate. I would hate to get it to the point where
      I begin to have side play.
      >
      >--------
      >David Maib
      >RV-10 #40559
      >
      >
      >Read this topic online here:
      >
      >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89217#89217
      >
      >
      >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >Text inserted by Panda Platinum 2005 Internet Security:
      >
      > This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://127.0.0.1:6083/Panda?ID=pav_40584&SPAM=true
      >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
Battery Charger?
      
      Sorry........helps to put the link in the email!   :)
      http://www.cyclegiant.com/pgroup_descrip/3167/4707/?return=%3ftpl%3Din
      dex%26category_id%3D3167%26
      
      
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      
Sorry........helps to put the link in the email!   :)
      
      
http://www.cyclegiant.com/pgr
      oup_descrip/3167/4707/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D3167%26
      
 
      
Dean 40449
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Baggage door lock
From: 
"Jim & Julie Wade" <jwade(at)msdeltawireless.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      I use this one, love not having to use a key!!! Yes, a little drag, but worth it to me. http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?cookietest=1&&offerings_id=11231
      Jim
      N369JW
      65 hrs
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89246#89246
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Baggage door hinge, hardware shortage.
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      I am jumping around on the plans so much that I can't keep my logs in kitpro 
      straight.
      
      In any case I finished the install of my baggage door yesterday eventhough 
      the closeout panel is still clecoes. The door functions very well but I 
      needed to englarge the opening directly above the hinge pin to allow the pin 
      to be inserted. The Hinge is only ever so slightly in the airstream, which 
      is good, but it made the insertion of the pin difficult.  The fit of the 
      door is excellent, thank all for the input.
      
      Chris Johnson, crimping the frame did work for me.
      
      I am planning on laminating on a piece of aluminum to the aluminum angle 
      which serves as a door stop right above the top of the hing pin( only after 
      all the painting interior and exterior is completed). Some filler will also 
      be used, but one this is done the pin will no longer be removable.
      The piece of aluminum will provide backing to the filler and prevent insects 
      from getting in while the plane is on the ground.
      
      Did any one else experience this or did you put the hing far enough out that 
      this is not a problem?
      
      On another note, I was missing two #8 dimpled nutplates, the kit only give 
      two and four are needed, for the rear seats, for tacking down the seat 
      bottoms. Lastly, I have made two seperate orders for LP4-3 blind rivets, 100 
      each time and I am hoping I won't need anymore. The kit seemed short on 
      these by atleast 100-150.
      
      JOhn G.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      Is the charger 6 or 12 volt?  Maybe I missed it in the specs.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
MikeEasley(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
DFC 250 Sold!
      
      
      Thanks everyone.  I had several responses, selected the first one to  arrive 
      in my in-box and it's sold.
      
      Mike Easley
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Baggage door hinge, hardware shortage.
      
      
      John, I ended up in exactly the same situation as you. 
      http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2034%20Baggage%20Door/slides/DSC02782.html 
      with almost  the same plan to fix, However, I believe that if I  Pro 
      Seal a metal 'filler plate to the upper inside of the door itself, and 
      then fill that with body filler to hide any seam, that when the door 
      opens it should provide access to allow for the hinge pin to be removed. 
      (At least that's the plan)
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
      
      12 volt
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      12 volt
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rick Leach" <papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You guessed
      it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
      much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  Should I
      suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It's probably only a
      few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      
      
      Rick Leach
      
      40397
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the  
      effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place wh
      ere  I 
      would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they have  
      done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
      Jim
      40134
      
      In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      
      
      OK, call me dumb and I know,  always measure twice and saw once.  You guesse
      d 
      it, I trimmed one  elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too 
      much off.  How  will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  Should 
      I 
      suck it up  and get a new weight or go with this one?  It=99s probably
       only a few  
      ounces off.  I haven=99t weighed it. 
      Rick Leach 
      40397
      
      
      (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List) 
      
      
      Jim "Scooter"  McGrew
      _http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: 
Re: Baggage door lock
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      I saw this product a while ago, but was wondering about the  
      weathering properties of Zinc?
      
      -Sean #40303
      
      On Jan 21, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Jim & Julie Wade wrote:
      
      > 
      >
      > I use this one, love not having to use a key!!! Yes, a little drag,  
      > but worth it to me. http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/ 
      > product_details.cfm?cookietest=1&&offerings_id=11231
      > Jim
      > N369JW
      > 65 hrs
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89246#89246
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Battery Charger?
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      Yep, had one on my Harley for about a year and it fried.  Switched to a
      Battery Tender Jr and haven't looked back.
      
      
      Michael Sausen
      
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      ddddsp1(at)juno.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:11 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Battery Charger?
      
      
      Sorry........helps to put the link in the email!   :)
      
      http://www.cyclegiant.com/pgroup_descrip/3167/4707/?return=%3ftpl%3Dind
      e
      x%26category_id%3D3167%26
      
      
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ron
      t.htm?csp=24> 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding 
      additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the 
      elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  
      This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      
      Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop 
      down.  The response did not however answer my question about need to add 
      weight or not.
      
      What are others doing?
      
      Carl Froehlich
      RV-10 (wings)
      RV-8A (300 hrs) 
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of 
      JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
        Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the 
      effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one 
      place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans 
      precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
        Jim
        40134
      
        In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
          OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You 
      guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a 
      bit too much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later 
      on?  Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  
      It=99s probably only a few ounces off.  I haven=99t weighed 
      it.
      
      
          Rick Leach
      
          40397
      
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
      m/Navigator?RV10-List
      .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
        Jim "Scooter" McGrew
        http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Shop Organization
From: 
"rleffler" <rvmail(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      Thanks for all the comments!
      
      I ended up getting these:  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93929 
      
      They were onsale for $2.50 this week.  Four of them handled all the bags in the
      empennage kit.
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89393#89393
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
From: 
rv10builder <rv10builder(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: Battery Charger?
      
      
      I think that's the one I am going to buy. From the looks of their WEB 
      site I should be able to pick it up at the local Harley shop.
      
      Thanks,
      
      Brian
      #40308
      http://www.mykitlog.com/rv10builder
      
      
      RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
      >
      > Yep, had one on my Harley for about a year and it fried. Switched to a 
      > Battery Tender Jr and havent looked back.
      >
      > Michael Sausen
      >
      > -10 #352 limbo
      >
      > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 
      > *ddddsp1(at)juno.com
      > *Sent:* Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:11 AM
      > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Battery Charger?
      >
      > Sorry........helps to put the link in the email! :)
      >
      > http://www.cyclegiant.com/pgroup_descrip/3167/4707/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D3167%26
      >
      > Dean 40449
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      > Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. 
      > <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/front.htm?csp=24>
      >
      > * *
      > * *
      > **
      > **
      > **
      > **
      > **
      > **
      > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
      > **
      > **
      > **
      > *http://forums.matronics.com*
      > **
      > * *
      > *
      >
      >
      > *
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Marvin Mixon" <mmixon(at)fastspot.net>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? 
      How
      much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting?  How much 
      difference
      between the two sides is acceptable?
      
      
      Marvin Mixon
      
      40633
      
      
         _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl 
      Froehlich
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding 
      additional
      weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the elevators are
      significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  This was 
      different
      than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      
      
      Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop
      down.  The response did not however answer my question about need to add
      weight or not.
      
      
      What are others doing?
      
      
      Carl Froehlich
      
      RV-10 (wings)
      
      RV-8A (300 hrs) 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of 
      JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the
      effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one 
      place
      where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as 
      they
      have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
      
      Jim
      
      40134
      
      
      In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      
      OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You 
      guessed
      it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
      much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  
      Should I
      suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It=92s probably 
      only a
      few ounces off.  I haven=92t weighed it.
      
      
      Rick Leach
      
      40397
      
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
      m/Nav
      igator?RV10-List
      .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      Jim "Scooter" McGrew
      HYPERLINK "http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew"http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com
      /Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"http://www.matronics.com/Na
      vig
      ator?RV10-List
      "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
      
      1/20/2007
      10:31 PM 
      
      -- 
      1/20/2007
      10:31 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      
      Get a new one.
      
      I used a band saw for the rough cut and finished it with a vixen file.
      
      Dumb is not cutting it incorrectly. Dumb is cutting it incorrectly and then 
      realizing it and then using it.
      
      This is the kind of thing that should be eating away at your brain even 
      before the plane gets airborn. If not now, then certainly when you are in 
      the air. Just think of that little voice you hear now being amplified by 
      1000 times when something sounds incorrect when in the air or doesn't feel 
      right and then multiply it by all the other items you questioned during the 
      building process. Too much imput for me.
      
      Just do it correctly, it makes it a lot easier in the end and a lot safer.
      
      Just my thoughts.
      
      John G. 409
      
      >From: "Rick Leach" <papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:27:30 -0500
      >
      >OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You 
      >guessed
      >it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
      >much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  Should 
      >I
      >suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It's probably only a
      >few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      >
      >
      >Rick Leach
      >
      >40397
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the control surfaces af
      ter completing the plane and painting it?    
      
      All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after pai
      nting?
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      
So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the contro
      l surfaces after completing the plane and painting it?   
       
      
All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after 
      painting?
      
Dean 40449
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
      
      Define ".a bit too much off."?  Is it a significant percentage say more than
      10% of the weight?  If so you probably should order some new lead but if not
      then I would just wait and see after balancing them.
      
      
      I wouldn't loose a ton of sleep over it either.  You are going to balance
      the control surfaces before flying right?  If you don't have to add weight
      to get them balanced then consider your screw up really a fix but If you do
      need to add weight then its time to order some new lead.  Van's is 20min by
      car from my house though so I usually don't consider the time involved to
      get new ones (just the time off work since the place is usually a ghost town
      at 4:30pm).
      
      
      I have not installed or balanced my elevators on the 10 yet but I have on a
      RV9A and a RV4.  In both cases the weights that we started with were too
      heavy and needed some significant trimming to be considered balanced.
      Everyone's planes will be different as some builders proseal the trailing
      edges and others don't.  How about the weight differences in the trim cable
      anchor brackets from van's vs. some of the aftermarket ones?  My point being
      Van's can't supply you with the exact counterweight 100% of the time.  
      
      
      The 4 & the 9 that I fly have balanced control surfaces and do not "droop"
      as one person said.  Despite my repeated efforts neither of them have fallen
      out of the sky :-).
      
      
      Ben Westfall
      
      #40579 - Gas Tanks.. still
      
      Portland, OR
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin Mixon
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:16 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? How
      much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting?  How much difference
      between the two sides is acceptable?
      
      
      Marvin Mixon
      
      40633
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding additional
      weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the elevators are
      significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  This was different
      than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      
      
      Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop
      down.  The response did not however answer my question about need to add
      weight or not.
      
      
      What are others doing?
      
      
      Carl Froehlich
      
      RV-10 (wings)
      
      RV-8A (300 hrs) 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the
      effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place
      where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they
      have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
      
      Jim
      
      40134
      
      
      In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      
      OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You guessed
      it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
      much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  Should I
      suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It's probably only a
      few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      
      
      Rick Leach
      
      40397
      
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav
      igator?RV10-List
      .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      Jim "Scooter" McGrew
      http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
      /Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      -- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM 
      
      --
      1/20/2007 10:31 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 21, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      Count me in.  Wouldn't pilot one that hasn't been.  Sometimes ride
      passenger in those who didn't cause a love RV-10s and think the world of
      those  guys and gals who are done building.  Given the warning by VANS
      about flutter and VNE limits, it sounds pretty important doesn't it?
      
      
      John Cox 
       #40600 
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      ddddsp1(at)juno.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:50 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the control surfaces
      after completing the plane and painting it?    
      
      All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after
      painting?
      
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ron
      t.htm?csp=24> 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
MikeEasley(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      As a general rule, it's better to be a little overbalanced than  
      underbalanced, if you're worried about flutter. I balanced all my surfaces on my
      Lancair 
      both before and after painting.  One possible solution would be to  cut the 
      weight a little big (heavy) then drill a hole in it until you're  balanced.  
      Then after painting you could pour molten lead in the hole to  bring the weight
      
      up to the new balance.
      
      Mike Easley
      Colorado Springs 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rick Gray" <rickgray(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' 
      the elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the 
      trailing edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by 
      design. It would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn 
      to 'balance' as you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on 
      the 10.....savvy?
      
      It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
      
      For the archives.
      
      Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Ben Westfall 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 1:39 AM
        Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
        Define ".a bit too much off."?  Is it a significant percentage say 
      more than 10% of the weight?  If so you probably should order some new 
      lead but if not then I would just wait and see after balancing them.
      
         
      
        I wouldn't loose a ton of sleep over it either.  You are going to 
      balance the control surfaces before flying right?  If you don't have to 
      add weight to get them balanced then consider your screw up really a fix 
      but If you do need to add weight then its time to order some new lead.  
      Van's is 20min by car from my house though so I usually don't consider 
      the time involved to get new ones (just the time off work since the 
      place is usually a ghost town at 4:30pm).
      
         
      
        I have not installed or balanced my elevators on the 10 yet but I have 
      on a RV9A and a RV4.  In both cases the weights that we started with 
      were too heavy and needed some significant trimming to be considered 
      balanced.  Everyone's planes will be different as some builders proseal 
      the trailing edges and others don't.  How about the weight differences 
      in the trim cable anchor brackets from van's vs. some of the aftermarket 
      ones?  My point being Van's can't supply you with the exact 
      counterweight 100% of the time.  
      
         
      
        The 4 & the 9 that I fly have balanced control surfaces and do not 
      "droop" as one person said.  Despite my repeated efforts neither of them 
      have fallen out of the sky J.
      
         
      
        Ben Westfall
      
        #40579 - Gas Tanks.. still
      
        Portland, OR
      
         
      
         
      
         
      
         
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
      
        From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin Mixon
        Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:16 PM
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
         
      
        Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? 
      How much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting?  How much 
      difference between the two sides is acceptable?
      
         
      
        Marvin Mixon
      
        40633
      
         
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
      
        From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl 
      Froehlich
        Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
         
      
        While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding 
      additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the 
      elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  
      This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      
         
      
        Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to 
      droop down.  The response did not however answer my question about need 
      to add weight or not.
      
         
      
        What are others doing?
      
      
        Carl Froehlich
      
        RV-10 (wings)
      
        RV-8A (300 hrs) 
      
          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of 
      JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
          To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
          Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing 
      the effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one 
      place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans 
      precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
           
      
          Jim
      
          40134
      
           
      
          In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      
            OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  
      You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and 
      cut a bit too much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging 
      later on?  Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? 
       It's probably only a few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      
             
      
            Rick Leach
      
            40397
      
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
      m/Navigator?RV10-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com  
      
          Jim "Scooter" McGrew
          http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru
      ms.matronics.com      -- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM 
      
        --
        1/20/2007 10:31 PM
      
         
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
      elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
      control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
      also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
      elevator.
      
      On 1/22/07, Rick Gray  wrote:
      > The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the
      > elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing
      > edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It
      > would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as
      > you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
      >
      > It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
      >
      > For the archives.
      >
      > Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      > http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: Ben Westfall
      >   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >   Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 1:39 AM
      >   Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >
      >
      >   Define ".a bit too much off."?  Is it a significant percentage say more
      > than 10% of the weight?  If so you probably should order some new lead but
      > if not then I would just wait and see after balancing them.
      >
      >
      >   I wouldn't loose a ton of sleep over it either.  You are going to balance
      > the control surfaces before flying right?  If you don't have to add weight
      > to get them balanced then consider your screw up really a fix but If you do
      > need to add weight then its time to order some new lead.  Van's is 20min by
      > car from my house though so I usually don't consider the time involved to
      > get new ones (just the time off work since the place is usually a ghost town
      > at 4:30pm).
      >
      >
      >   I have not installed or balanced my elevators on the 10 yet but I have on
      > a RV9A and a RV4.  In both cases the weights that we started with were too
      > heavy and needed some significant trimming to be considered balanced.
      > Everyone's planes will be different as some builders proseal the trailing
      > edges and others don't.  How about the weight differences in the trim cable
      > anchor brackets from van's vs. some of the aftermarket ones?  My point being
      > Van's can't supply you with the exact counterweight 100% of the time.
      >
      >
      >   The 4 & the 9 that I fly have balanced control surfaces and do not "droop"
      > as one person said.  Despite my repeated efforts neither of them have fallen
      > out of the sky J.
      >
      >
      >   Ben Westfall
      >
      >   #40579 - Gas Tanks.. still
      >
      >   Portland, OR
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin Mixon
      >   Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:16 PM
      >   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >   Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >
      >
      >   Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? How
      > much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting?  How much difference
      > between the two sides is acceptable?
      >
      >
      >   Marvin Mixon
      >
      >   40633
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
      >   Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
      >   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >   Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >
      >
      >   While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding
      > additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the
      > elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  This
      > was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      >
      >
      >   Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop
      > down.  The response did not however answer my question about need to add
      > weight or not.
      >
      >
      >   What are others doing?
      >
      >
      >   Carl Froehlich
      >
      >   RV-10 (wings)
      >
      >   RV-8A (300 hrs)
      >
      >     -----Original Message-----
      >     From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
      >     Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
      >     To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >     Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >
      >     Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the
      > effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place
      > where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they
      > have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      >
      >
      >     Jim
      >
      >     40134
      >
      >
      >     In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      > papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      >
      >       OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You
      > guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit
      > too much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?
      > Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It's probably
      > only a few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      >
      >
      >       Rick Leach
      >
      >       40397
      >
      >
      > ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
      >
      >
      >     Jim "Scooter" McGrew
      >     http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
      >
      >
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >      -- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM
      >
      >   --
      >   1/20/2007 10:31 PM
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      Hmm, production(certified) aircraft have a specification for how many
      grams wt. you should measure at the trailing edge when the bearings
      are suspended on a knife edge. It would seem prudent for Vans to have
      such a spec for the -10 if in fact they should not be balanced with
      zero wt at the trailing edge.
      
      On 1/22/07, Rick Gray  wrote:
      >
      > The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the
      > elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing
      > edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It
      > would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as
      > you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
      >
      > It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
      >
      > For the archives.
      >
      > Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      > http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
      > ----- Original Message -----
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      If you over cut, don't waste your money on ordering a new weight.  Nail
      up some scrap wood to the same shape as the original, melt the lead, and
      pour a new one.  Much cheaper than the shipping charge on a buck worth
      of lead.
      
      
      Michael Sausen
      
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"jdalton77" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      wow, we seem to have found an alternative to "primer wars!"  Whoo hoo! 
      
      Jeff Dalton
      Starting Wings
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Rick Gray 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 AM
        Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
        The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' 
      the elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the 
      trailing edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by 
      design. It would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn 
      to 'balance' as you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on 
      the 10.....savvy?
      
        It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land 
      line.
      
        For the archives.
      
        Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
        http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Ben Westfall 
          To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 1:39 AM
          Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
          Define ".a bit too much off."?  Is it a significant percentage say 
      more than 10% of the weight?  If so you probably should order some new 
      lead but if not then I would just wait and see after balancing them.
      
           
      
          I wouldn't loose a ton of sleep over it either.  You are going to 
      balance the control surfaces before flying right?  If you don't have to 
      add weight to get them balanced then consider your screw up really a fix 
      but If you do need to add weight then its time to order some new lead.  
      Van's is 20min by car from my house though so I usually don't consider 
      the time involved to get new ones (just the time off work since the 
      place is usually a ghost town at 4:30pm).
      
           
      
          I have not installed or balanced my elevators on the 10 yet but I 
      have on a RV9A and a RV4.  In both cases the weights that we started 
      with were too heavy and needed some significant trimming to be 
      considered balanced.  Everyone's planes will be different as some 
      builders proseal the trailing edges and others don't.  How about the 
      weight differences in the trim cable anchor brackets from van's vs. some 
      of the aftermarket ones?  My point being Van's can't supply you with the 
      exact counterweight 100% of the time.  
      
           
      
          The 4 & the 9 that I fly have balanced control surfaces and do not 
      "droop" as one person said.  Despite my repeated efforts neither of them 
      have fallen out of the sky J.
      
           
      
          Ben Westfall
      
          #40579 - Gas Tanks.. still
      
          Portland, OR
      
           
      
           
      
           
      
           
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      
          From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin Mixon
          Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:16 PM
          To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
           
      
          Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too 
      much? How much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting?  How 
      much difference between the two sides is acceptable?
      
           
      
          Marvin Mixon
      
          40633
      
           
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      
          From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl 
      Froehlich
          Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
          To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: RE: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
           
      
          While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding 
      additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the 
      elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance.  
      This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
      
           
      
          Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to 
      droop down.  The response did not however answer my question about need 
      to add weight or not.
      
           
      
          What are others doing?
      
      
          Carl Froehlich
      
          RV-10 (wings)
      
          RV-8A (300 hrs) 
      
            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of 
      JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
            To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
            Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
            Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing 
      the effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one 
      place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans 
      precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
      
             
      
            Jim
      
            40134
      
             
      
            In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
      papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
      
              OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  
      You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and 
      cut a bit too much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging 
      later on?  Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? 
       It's probably only a few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      
               
      
              Rick Leach
      
              40397
      
      
      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
      m/Navigator?RV10-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com  
      
            Jim "Scooter" McGrew
            http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru
      ms.matronics.com      -- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM 
      
          --
          1/20/2007 10:31 PM
      
         
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator
      would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator
      is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.
      Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer
      models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the
      elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while
      some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the
      elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail
      pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.
      
      On 1/22/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      >
      > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
      > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
      > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
      > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
      > elevator.
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
Shawn Moon <moons1999(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Bent Tab
      
      All,=0A    I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of s
      o doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way 
      to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get it l
      ined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a cleko.  
      Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions would be a
      ppreciated.=0A=0A--Shawn=0A40366 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A____________________
      ________________________________________________________________=0ANever mi
      ss an email again!=0AYahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives
      .=0Ahttp://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      
      Rick - 
      It remains an intermittent occurrence on this list, that builders will try to persuade
      other new builders to cut a safety corner "here or there" because they
      haven't had the problem yet.  There is(are) a clear reason(s) why control surfaces
      require a certificated A & P to balance them after painting and log the
      compliance.  I would hope all readers either understand the reasons or research
      it for their own enlightenment.
      
      Last week, a surviving spouse using an ambulance chasing barrister (Please no offense
      intended Russ), prevailed in a $10.5 million dollar settlement against
      the third largest EAA fly-in in the country.  Arlington, WA has always been a
      great retreat around the 4th of July each year - until now.  The circumstance
      was a pilot of an RV-6A failed to complete a landing on the airport and was cremated
      when all the little extinguishers by the EAAers ran out.  The wife and
      her barrister will be splitting $8.5 million which is to be paid 50% by all EAA
      members and the specific chapter in Washington. The attorney for the fire department
      got their responsibility for not responding faster (6 minutes) to be
      dropped (hence the $2 million that will not be paid by the City or the Fire Department).
      Their patience since 1999 and your membership dues have made at least
      two people happy.
      
      When you consider not balancing your control surface, think about those other builders
      who will cover the cost (after the fact) and choose wisely.  As a timeline
      reference, the correction of the improper cut can be done "After Paint but
      before Flight" and we will all rest better.  I would be pleased to get the replacement
      part for you (as I live only 7 minutes away and ship it no cost by
      FEDEX whenever you choose).
      
      John Cox - KUAO
      #40600 
      ________________________________________
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Gray
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:02 AM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the elevators.
      After installation ofthe 'plans' counterweights the trailing edge will remain
      'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It would take ~another
      1lb ingot of lead on each elevator hornto 'balance' as you did with your 'other'
      RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
      
      It's not spelled out in the plans....this info fromVans via land line.
      
      For the archives.
      
      Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the effects
      of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place where I would
      be especiallycareful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they have done the
      math and engineering on this for us.
      
      Jim
      40134
      
      In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com
      writes:
      OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You guessed it,
      I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too much off.
      How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should I suck it up
      and get a new weight or go with this one? It's probably only a few ounces off.
      I haven't weighed it.
      
      Rick Leach
      40397
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      
      Well Said Kelly.
      
      John Cox
      #40600
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
      McMullen
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:55 AM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      Hmm, production(certified) aircraft have a specification for how many
      grams wt. you should measure at the trailing edge when the bearings
      are suspended on a knife edge. It would seem prudent for Vans to have
      such a spec for the -10 if in fact they should not be balanced with
      zero wt at the trailing edge.
      
      On 1/22/07, Rick Gray  wrote:
      >
      > The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing'
      the
      > elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the
      trailing
      > edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design.
      It
      > would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to
      'balance' as
      > you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the
      10.....savvy?
      >
      > It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land
      line.
      >
      > For the archives.
      >
      > Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      > http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
      > ----- Original Message -----
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      cut a tab of baffling material and drill a hole in it to fit rivet. Push 
      tab on back of rivet and hit lightly to set rivet. Then remove tab and 
      finish rivet. I posted pictures of this in the past.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Shawn Moon 
        To: Matronics RV10 
        Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:11 AM
        Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      
      
        All,
            I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so 
      doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way 
      to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get 
      it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a 
      cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions 
      would be appreciated.
      
        --Shawn
        40366 
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
        with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com>
      
      Hi Shawn,
      
      
      Use a small piece of leather with a hole in it(I've also used dense
      foam). The hole fits over the shop side of the undriven rivet. Then
      press down on the leather with your bucking bar until it contacts the
      undriven rivet end (it should push the tab flat against the underlying
      aluminum.) Start to set the rivet with your rivet gun until the rivet
      holds the tab in place. Remove the leather and finish driving the rivet.
      
      
      Vern (#324 fuselage) 
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Moon
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:12 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      
      
      All,
          I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so
      doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way
      to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get
      it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a
      cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions
      would be appreciated.
      
      --Shawn
      40366 
      
      
        _____  
      
      8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
      with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
Subject: 
Re: Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      Hi Shawn,
      
      If you can get to the shop head with a back riveting tool, the tool  
      will hold down the  tab.  If not, you can make a notched or stepped  
      bucking that will hold down the tab with one surface and buck the  
      rivet with the other.
      
      Jeff Carpenter
      40304
      
      
      On Jan 22, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Shawn Moon wrote:
      
      > All,
      >     I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of  
      > so doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a  
      > good way to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was  
      > able to get it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless  
      > held down by a cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an  
      > option.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
      >
      > --Shawn
      > 40366
      >
      >
      > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
      > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > forums.matronics.com_- 
      > ===========================================================
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      glue it in and clecoe it until dry then rivet it. If you are suggesting no 
      one can get in there then are you using a blind rivet. Epoxy first in any 
      case.
      
      John G
      
      
      >From: Shawn Moon <moons1999(at)yahoo.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: Matronics RV10 
      >Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:11:37 -0800 (PST)
      >
      >All,
      >     I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so 
      >doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way to 
      >hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get it 
      >lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a cleko.  
      >Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions would be 
      >appreciated.
      >
      >--Shawn
      >40366
      >
      >
      >Never miss an email again!
      >Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
      >http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Baggage door lock
From: 
"Jim & Julie Wade" <jwade(at)msdeltawireless.com>
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      Looks good, works good, no problems with weather so far.
      Jim
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89549#89549
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
"Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>
      
      You can back rivet it, and the spring loaded collar will hold it down,
      or what I have down is use a plastic tweaker (electrical term) to hold
      the tab for the first one or two strikes by the gun, this causes the
      rivet to swell enough to hold then you can take out the weaker.
      Depending on the angle it can be difficult to hold the bucking bar and
      tweaker with both hands, but get used to it, because there will be many
      more times you need 3 hands to do something   
      Dan
      N289DT
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Moon
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:12 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      
      
      All,
          I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so
      doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way
      to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get
      it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a
      cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions
      would be appreciated.
      
      --Shawn
      40366 
      
      
        _____  
      
      8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick
      <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news>  in no
      time
      with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
      <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news>  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      Vans does have a spec for elevator balance.  It can be found in their 
      Final Inspection and Flight Test Document on Page 2.  For the -10 it is 
      37.5 in/lbs Trailing Edge Heavy.  The factory can tell you how to rig 
      the appropriate test equipment...
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      You could try to back rivet it.  The collar on the back rivet set should 
      hold the tab in place.  You'll need a back rivet bucking bar and an 
      assistant.  Future reference:  don't punch out rivets that are 
      associated with tabs or thin flanges, drill them out.  You'll avoid this 
      problem.
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rick Leach" <papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: 
Counterbalance
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      Thanks all for the responses.  Didn't mean to get another war going.  A lot
      of good advice for everyone.  I think I like John's response the best and
      will just cut down the trailing edge.  Just kidding!  Hey, it would save on
      overall weight as well.  In the end I'll be putting the correct weights on
      and tweak it when I get to the final rigging.
      
      
      Rick Leach
      
      Sitting with my trailing edge hanging a bit lower.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Elevator counterbalance weight Further Thought out!
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      maybe I'll be the last to post and I think I read everyones responses. An 
      important point to consider is that once the elevator tip farings are 
      installed, one can no longer get access to the bold head or the nut of the 
      bolt which holds these weights on. So it might be wise to error on the heavy 
      side so that one could nip away at the excess weight in the future if the 
      lead needs to be lightened.
      
      I suppose one could also epoxy in the nut to the rib  so that one could 
      replace the weight and still torque it down without removing the faring and 
      messing up the paint job.
      
      I don't think anyone mentioned this.
      
      John G.
      
      
      >From: "Rick Leach" <papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:27:30 -0500
      >
      >OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once.  You 
      >guessed
      >it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
      >much off.  How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on?  Should 
      >I
      >suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one?  It's probably only a
      >few ounces off.  I haven't weighed it.
      >
      >
      >Rick Leach
      >
      >40397
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      drilled hole in a tongue depressor or popsicle stick wrks well also.
      
      John G
      
      
      >From: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:16:10 -0800
      >
      >Hi Shawn,
      >
      >
      >Use a small piece of leather with a hole in it(I've also used dense
      >foam). The hole fits over the shop side of the undriven rivet. Then
      >press down on the leather with your bucking bar until it contacts the
      >undriven rivet end (it should push the tab flat against the underlying
      >aluminum.) Start to set the rivet with your rivet gun until the rivet
      >holds the tab in place. Remove the leather and finish driving the rivet.
      >
      >
      >Vern (#324 fuselage)
      >
      >
      >   _____
      >
      >From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Moon
      >Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:12 AM
      >To: Matronics RV10
      >Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      >
      >
      >All,
      >     I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so
      >doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way
      >to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get
      >it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a
      >cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions
      >would be appreciated.
      >
      >--Shawn
      >40366
      >
      >
      >   _____
      >
      >8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
      >with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Chris" <toaster73(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      For EAA online members this link may provide helpful knowledge too.
      -Chris Lucas
      #40072 slow build... tailcone attach
      
      
      <http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/controls/Control%20Sur
      face%20Balancing%20in%20Homebuilts.html>
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: John Hasbrouck 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 1:25 PM
        Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
        Vans does have a spec for elevator balance.  It can be found in their 
      Final Inspection and Flight Test Document on Page 2.  For the -10 it is 
      37.5 in/lbs Trailing Edge Heavy.  The factory can tell you how to rig 
      the appropriate test equipment...
      
        John Hasbrouck
        #40264
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight Further Thought out!
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      John,
          I installed my elevator tips with screws for  easy removal and to avoid 
      the problems you mentioned.
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      
      Gary,
          Actually the equipment needed for checking the counterbalances is quite 
      simple.  For the elevators you need a rod attached to the elevators 
      extending  forward to a point 37.5 inches from the hinge centerline with a 1 
      lb weight attached at that point. (  37.5 in/lb ).  This is with both 
      elevators attached, the trim in place and the tips on.  If your choose to 
      pop rivet the tips on you should probably wait until the final balance is 
      done.  ( Didn't tell us that in the plans did they?  I used #4 screws and 
      nutplates for mine. )  Adjust counterweights so the elevators rest trailing 
      edge low.  Any other builders who want to correct or expand on the above 
      procedure please do so.  I'd appreciate constructive advise particularly 
      from previous RVers.  BTW.  The old -6 plans called for the builder to melt 
      lead ingots into a mould to form the counterweights.  Boy are we spoiled!!
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      Thanks.  Looks like I am going to first start helping an A&P friend 
      finish an RV-6 that he bought from an estate. Its in the fuselage stage. 
      Should be good intro to how Vans does stuff.
      John W. Cox wrote:
      >
      > Well Said Kelly.
      >
      > John Cox
      > #40600
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
      > McMullen
      > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:55 AM
      > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator counterbalance weight
      >
      >
      > Hmm, production(certified) aircraft have a specification for how many
      > grams wt. you should measure at the trailing edge when the bearings
      > are suspended on a knife edge. It would seem prudent for Vans to have
      > such a spec for the -10 if in fact they should not be balanced with
      > zero wt at the trailing edge.
      >
      > On 1/22/07, Rick Gray  wrote:
      >   
      >> The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing'
      >>     
      > the
      >   
      >> elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the
      >>     
      > trailing
      >   
      >> edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design.
      >>     
      > It
      >   
      >> would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to
      >>     
      > 'balance' as
      >   
      >> you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the
      >>     
      > 10.....savvy?
      >   
      >> It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land
      >>     
      > line.
      >   
      >> For the archives.
      >>
      >> Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
      >> http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >>     
      >
      >
      >   
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at 
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't 
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Bent Tab
Date: 
Jan 22, 2007
      
      Can you back rivet the tab?  I would research this first, but could you 
      use a drop of super glue to hold the tab?  I don't know if Cyan glue 
      will affect aluminum, so check this first.
      
      Dave Leikam
      40496
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Shawn Moon 
        To: Matronics RV10 
        Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:11 AM
        Subject: RV10-List: Bent Tab
      
      
        All,
            I had to pull out a rivet in my tailcone and in the process of so 
      doing I bent a tab on the F-1011 bulkhead.  Does anybody have a good way 
      to hold that tab down while re-inserting the rivet?  I was able to get 
      it lined up again but it still wants to stick up unless held down by a 
      cleko.  Removing the part is not going to be an option.  Any suggestions 
      would be appreciated.
      
        --Shawn
        40366 
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
        with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      
      Deems,
      
        Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like
      to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take
      exception with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
      Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming
      offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      
        If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
      impacting everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to
      accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
      and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device
      called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
      short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
      minutes sooner.  I really wish Van's would get the difference already
      and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"BPA" <BPA(at)bpaengines.com>
      
      
      Wow Deems.  Thanks for passing this along.  There are a few points that
      should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
      are still in the homework phase of engine selection.  Primarily, the
      Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine.  It is made
      of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of their
      kit program.  The only exception is the cold air induction sump, plenum
      and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
      experimental arena.  In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
      at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons.  Oops,
      and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior.  Other than
      that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540.  Of course the
      IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
      
      There is a clearance issue with the mount.  I do have a local source for
      the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along to
      anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
      cold air induction.  This individual has modified the RV-10 engine mount
      with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few days,
      and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      
      For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
      with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      your mounts modified.
      
      Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate for
      you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants.  We
      have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp.  Van's has an
      interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine.  I doubt very seriously
      that he is selling them to you at cost!
      
      Thank for your continued support.
      
      Allen Barrett
      Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
      2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
      Tulsa, OK  74115
      (918) 835-1089 phone
      (918) 835-1754 fax
      www.barrettprecisionengines.com
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      
      
      The modification did indeed fix my situation I've posted pictures here : 
      http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%20Firewall%20Forward%20FF1/slides/DSC04025.html
      page forward and you can see several other shots. I think this must be a 
      broader issue than just BPE cold air. They told me they had just 
      modified another mount the day prior to mine. Don't know if that one was 
      an early/unmodified mount or not.
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
      RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
      
      >
      >Deems,
      >
      >  Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like
      >to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take
      >exception with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
      >Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming
      >offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      >Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      >
      >  If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
      >impacting everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to
      >accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
      >and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device
      >called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
      >short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
      >minutes sooner.  I really wish Van's would get the difference already
      >and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
      >
      >Michael Sausen
      >-10 #352 limbo
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      >Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      >To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >
      >
      >Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      >
      >us "Hot Rodders"
      >
      >http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      >
      >Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      >
      >be doing any more!
      >
      >
      >Deems Davis # 406
      >Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      >http://deemsrv10.com/
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:
      http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm
      Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator
      aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass
      balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.
      Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass
      balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a
      spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to
      the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain
      level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY
      light loads (compared to C150's).
      
      On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen  wrote:
      >
      > The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator
      > would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator
      > is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.
      > Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer
      > models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the
      > elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while
      > some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the
      > elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail
      > pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.
      >
      > On 1/22/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      > >
      > > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
      > > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
      > > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
      > > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
      > > elevator.
      > >
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      I do not see the words "hot rodding" in the SB nor do I see anything but
      Vans covering their buts.  It looks pretty simple, the motor mount is only
      guaranteed to work with the stock IO-540 without cold air induction, if you
      go with any other variation, it is on the builder to fix the motor mount.
      Also their statement about higher horse power does not limit you on the size
      of engine you are putting in, just that you must account for it in your
      operating limits in order to meet the intent of the statement in the SB.
      There are many airplanes with de-rated turbines.  
      
      Yes I have a stock IO-540....so this really doesn't affect me. But, I hate
      to see this mud slinging at Vans on something that they are reasonably
      handling.....now about the fiberglass parts.........
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:47 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
      Deems,
      
        Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like
      to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take
      exception with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
      Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming
      offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      
        If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
      impacting everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to
      accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
      and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device
      called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
      short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
      minutes sooner.  I really wish Van's would get the difference already
      and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      I'd say we are separated by a common language. I don't consider the
      balance horns on  Cessna "tabs" any more than they are on the hundreds
      of other aircraft that have them. I consider "tabs" as small strips of
      metal riveted to the rear of a control surface. What you describe is
      most commonly called a horn or counter balance, not a tab.
      >From your reference link "Tabs are auxiliary control surfaces placed
      at the trailing edges of the primary control surfaces."
      
      Which is why I wrote what I did.
      
      On 1/23/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      >
      > For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:
      > http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm
      > Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator
      > aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass
      > balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.
      > Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass
      > balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a
      > spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to
      > the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain
      > level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY
      > light loads (compared to C150's).
      >
      > On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen  wrote:
      > >
      > > The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator
      > > would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator
      > > is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.
      > > Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer
      > > models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the
      > > elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while
      > > some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the
      > > elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail
      > > pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.
      > >
      > > On 1/22/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      > > >
      > > > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
      > > > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
      > > > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
      > > > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
      > > > elevator.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      
        Reasonably handling to me would suggest they make the change to their
      production run eliminating this problem with 99% of the engines used.
      Tim had a "stock" setup and still had this problem as did others.
      
        I think the final statement in the SB describes their position on the
      unofficial term of "hot rodding" so let's cut the semantics.  I also
      didn't say anything about them covering their butts.  The SB went out of
      its way to suggest that the Barrett engine is not a stock Lycoming which
      is absolutely incorrect.  Frankly if I was Alan I would be rather
      irritated and would be having a conversation with Van's about that
      incorrect fact and suggest they change the wording.  The SB also
      suggests that if you use Lycoming parts this won't be a problem which
      has already been shown as incorrect.
      
        I talked to Scott and Van's position is he is afraid of giving the
      appearance of authorizing these changes for litigious reasons as he
      tested the aircraft with the 260HP engine.  This is the ONLY reason they
      don't make the change across the board.  As I told Scott, the addition
      of the cold air sump for me was for a safety margin getting out of grass
      strips (my home airport) and high density altitude locations.  When I
      purchased my engine I was living in Texas where it routinely is over 100
      degrees.  I can tell you that the cold air sump probably isn't going to
      get me back up to 260HP by itself when it's over 100 in the high desert.
      Same with Deems.  While Van is in CYA mode against increased HP, Van is
      also setting himself up for lawsuits in the other direction by impacting
      safety.  If he had the chance to make a non-impacting change to his
      design to improve safety and didn't do it, it's no better than
      encouraging wild modifications.  Scott is checking with Van on if he can
      drop ship the mount directly to Alan for modification but he's afraid
      that they may also give the same impression.  Give me a break.  How
      about if I sign a legal release of responsibility like I had to when I
      deleted items from the finish kit.  Or better yet I can give him Alan's
      home address as mine.  Or they can take the don't ask, don't tell
      approach.  This is just silly.
      
        I'm not slinging mud at Van's, I'm simply stating that if they have a
      solution they should implement it.  That's called customer service and
      improving a product.  Unfortunately they have a long history of ignoring
      customer suggestions and going on their merry way (fiberglass, shipping,
      etc).  They make a great aircraft kit but there is no way to hide from
      lawsuits nowadays.  It makes me sick that people cannot assume
      responsibility for their own actions anymore to the point that everyone
      is doing lawsuit mitigation as the first step in anything.
      
        I bought an engine from Barrett and at least I know they will take
      care of any issues that arise and not run and stick their head in the
      sand.
      
      Michael
      Rant mode off
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:16 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      I do not see the words "hot rodding" in the SB nor do I see anything but
      Vans covering their buts.  It looks pretty simple, the motor mount is
      only
      guaranteed to work with the stock IO-540 without cold air induction, if
      you
      go with any other variation, it is on the builder to fix the motor
      mount.
      Also their statement about higher horse power does not limit you on the
      size
      of engine you are putting in, just that you must account for it in your
      operating limits in order to meet the intent of the statement in the SB.
      There are many airplanes with de-rated turbines.  
      
      Yes I have a stock IO-540....so this really doesn't affect me. But, I
      hate
      to see this mud slinging at Vans on something that they are reasonably
      handling.....now about the fiberglass parts.........
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:47 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
      Deems,
      
        Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like
      to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take
      exception with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
      Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming
      offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      
        If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
      impacting everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to
      accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
      and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device
      called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
      short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
      minutes sooner.  I really wish Van's would get the difference already
      and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
      
      
      True. Common parlance here is "horn tab" not to be confused with
      "control horn"...
      
      On 1/23/07, Kelly McMullen  wrote:
      >
      > I'd say we are separated by a common language. I don't consider the
      > balance horns on  Cessna "tabs" any more than they are on the hundreds
      > of other aircraft that have them. I consider "tabs" as small strips of
      > metal riveted to the rear of a control surface. What you describe is
      > most commonly called a horn or counter balance, not a tab.
      > >From your reference link "Tabs are auxiliary control surfaces placed
      > at the trailing edges of the primary control surfaces."
      >
      > Which is why I wrote what I did.
      >
      > On 1/23/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      > >
      > > For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:
      > >
      > http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm
      > > Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator
      > > aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass
      > > balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.
      > > Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass
      > > balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a
      > > spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to
      > > the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain
      > > level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY
      > > light loads (compared to C150's).
      > >
      > > On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen  wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator
      > > > would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator
      > > > is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.
      > > > Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer
      > > > models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the
      > > > elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while
      > > > some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the
      > > > elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail
      > > > pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.
      > > >
      > > > On 1/22/07, James K Hovis  wrote:
      > 
      > > > >
      > > > > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
      > > > > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
      > > > > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
      > > > > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
      > > > > elevator.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Michael wrote
      
      "It makes me sick that people cannot assume responsibility for their own
      actions anymore to the point that everyone is doing lawsuit mitigation as
      the first step in anything."
      
      I totally agree......I have been on the receiving end of a lawsuit and
      totally understand Vans position based on the world we live in.  If Vans
      makes the change and it can be tied to his attempt to support alternative
      engines, what will that look like to a jury, seeing the crying widow of the
      dumb pilot who just killed himself doing something that exceeded the
      operating limits of the airplane. 
      
      
      Defense mode off, back to covering my ass at work......
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:42 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
        Reasonably handling to me would suggest they make the change to their
      production run eliminating this problem with 99% of the engines used.
      Tim had a "stock" setup and still had this problem as did others.
      
        I think the final statement in the SB describes their position on the
      unofficial term of "hot rodding" so let's cut the semantics.  I also
      didn't say anything about them covering their butts.  The SB went out of
      its way to suggest that the Barrett engine is not a stock Lycoming which
      is absolutely incorrect.  Frankly if I was Alan I would be rather
      irritated and would be having a conversation with Van's about that
      incorrect fact and suggest they change the wording.  The SB also
      suggests that if you use Lycoming parts this won't be a problem which
      has already been shown as incorrect.
      
        I talked to Scott and Van's position is he is afraid of giving the
      appearance of authorizing these changes for litigious reasons as he
      tested the aircraft with the 260HP engine.  This is the ONLY reason they
      don't make the change across the board.  As I told Scott, the addition
      of the cold air sump for me was for a safety margin getting out of grass
      strips (my home airport) and high density altitude locations.  When I
      purchased my engine I was living in Texas where it routinely is over 100
      degrees.  I can tell you that the cold air sump probably isn't going to
      get me back up to 260HP by itself when it's over 100 in the high desert.
      Same with Deems.  While Van is in CYA mode against increased HP, Van is
      also setting himself up for lawsuits in the other direction by impacting
      safety.  If he had the chance to make a non-impacting change to his
      design to improve safety and didn't do it, it's no better than
      encouraging wild modifications.  Scott is checking with Van on if he can
      drop ship the mount directly to Alan for modification but he's afraid
      that they may also give the same impression.  Give me a break.  How
      about if I sign a legal release of responsibility like I had to when I
      deleted items from the finish kit.  Or better yet I can give him Alan's
      home address as mine.  Or they can take the don't ask, don't tell
      approach.  This is just silly.
      
        I'm not slinging mud at Van's, I'm simply stating that if they have a
      solution they should implement it.  That's called customer service and
      improving a product.  Unfortunately they have a long history of ignoring
      customer suggestions and going on their merry way (fiberglass, shipping,
      etc).  They make a great aircraft kit but there is no way to hide from
      lawsuits nowadays.  It makes me sick that people cannot assume
      responsibility for their own actions anymore to the point that everyone
      is doing lawsuit mitigation as the first step in anything.
      
        I bought an engine from Barrett and at least I know they will take
      care of any issues that arise and not run and stick their head in the
      sand.
      
      Michael
      Rant mode off
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:16 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      I do not see the words "hot rodding" in the SB nor do I see anything but
      Vans covering their buts.  It looks pretty simple, the motor mount is
      only
      guaranteed to work with the stock IO-540 without cold air induction, if
      you
      go with any other variation, it is on the builder to fix the motor
      mount.
      Also their statement about higher horse power does not limit you on the
      size
      of engine you are putting in, just that you must account for it in your
      operating limits in order to meet the intent of the statement in the SB.
      There are many airplanes with de-rated turbines.  
      
      Yes I have a stock IO-540....so this really doesn't affect me. But, I
      hate
      to see this mud slinging at Vans on something that they are reasonably
      handling.....now about the fiberglass parts.........
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:47 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
      Deems,
      
        Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like
      to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take
      exception with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
      Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming
      offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      
        If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
      impacting everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to
      accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
      and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device
      called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
      short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
      minutes sooner.  I really wish Van's would get the difference already
      and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com>
Subject: 
Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      Question:
      
      Has anybody run into problems getting the RV 10 certified as "airworthy" 
      when they have installed a modified (increased horsepower) Lycoming 
      engine?   Does this continue to fall under the experimental regs of 
      building our own aircraft?  
      
      Fred Williams
      40515
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com>
Subject: 
Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      Question:
      
      Has anybody run into problems getting the RV 10 certified as "airworthy" 
      when they have installed a modified (increased horsepower) Lycoming 
      engine?   Does this continue to fall under the experimental regs of 
      building our own aircraft?  
      
      Fred Williams
      40515
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Vans motor mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      
      Experimental, is experimental, is experimental.  No such limitation.
      
      Michael
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
      Williams, M.D.
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:51 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      
      Question:
      
      Has anybody run into problems getting the RV 10 certified as "airworthy"
      
      when they have installed a modified (increased horsepower) Lycoming 
      engine?   Does this continue to fall under the experimental regs of 
      building our own aircraft?  
      
      Fred Williams
      40515
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      I probably shouldn't weigh in on this, simply because I usually don't have a
      clue.  However, after reading the notice and knowing a bit about business,
      it appears Vans is simply narrowing their scope of liability.  It'll not
      hurt their business one whit to do so and might hurt to go the other way.
      They will continue to sell and support the narrow band of known product, and
      they will make a good living doing that.  They will let Marty and others
      deal with the issues that lay outside that band.  And, that's okay.  There
      is good innovation happening all around Vans and they are fine with that.  I
      daresay they are happy with that.  The cottage industry that has grown up
      around their product is quite large and strong and will continue to grow and
      improve.  Should they make improvements to, say, the fiberglassed parts,
      sure and yes and I agree.  If they have a stock part that is not of high
      quality in fabrication, damn right they should improve that.  Should they
      modify the engine mount to make sure it works for a "standard" engine, of
      course.  They are all about keeping well within a safety and knowledge zone.
      Let the market improve the product.  They will still make their money.  
      
      Now, having said that, I do agree that the language found in the SB was not
      well thought out.  Clearly Barrett's engines are not aggressively modified
      clones, and clearly they didn't even have the mount correct for Tim's
      engine, so to put their stake at this point in the sand doesn't make sense
      on the face of it. And certainly building demonstrators as minimal VFR
      machines was a silly thing to do.  Clearly the RV-10 is a cruising IFR
      machine, and should be treated as such.  It has always been an attempt by
      the company to narrow the liability and cost options.  But, the stake has
      been put in the sand and we will continue to build the planes, modify them
      as the market allows, and continue to enjoy the hell out of them.  
      
      My conclusion?  We all have our quirks.  We meaning both individuals and
      companies.  But the cool thing in this society is that we have a market that
      can fill the voids and make things even better.  I have a feeling Van's will
      be seeing many a gear, many a cabin, many a cowl being returned, and many an
      engine not sold, as people find better alternatives.  Hopefully this will
      make an impression on them, but if not, hey, we'll find a way to move
      forward with their basic product, which ain't bad.  
      
      John Jessen
        #328
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:26 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Michael wrote
      
      "It makes me sick that people cannot assume responsibility for their own
      actions anymore to the point that everyone is doing lawsuit mitigation as
      the first step in anything."
      
      I totally agree......I have been on the receiving end of a lawsuit and
      totally understand Vans position based on the world we live in.  If Vans
      makes the change and it can be tied to his attempt to support alternative
      engines, what will that look like to a jury, seeing the crying widow of the
      dumb pilot who just killed himself doing something that exceeded the
      operating limits of the airplane. 
      
      
      Defense mode off, back to covering my ass at work......
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:42 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
        Reasonably handling to me would suggest they make the change to their
      production run eliminating this problem with 99% of the engines used.
      Tim had a "stock" setup and still had this problem as did others.
      
        I think the final statement in the SB describes their position on the
      unofficial term of "hot rodding" so let's cut the semantics.  I also didn't
      say anything about them covering their butts.  The SB went out of its way to
      suggest that the Barrett engine is not a stock Lycoming which is absolutely
      incorrect.  Frankly if I was Alan I would be rather irritated and would be
      having a conversation with Van's about that incorrect fact and suggest they
      change the wording.  The SB also suggests that if you use Lycoming parts
      this won't be a problem which has already been shown as incorrect.
      
        I talked to Scott and Van's position is he is afraid of giving the
      appearance of authorizing these changes for litigious reasons as he tested
      the aircraft with the 260HP engine.  This is the ONLY reason they don't make
      the change across the board.  As I told Scott, the addition of the cold air
      sump for me was for a safety margin getting out of grass strips (my home
      airport) and high density altitude locations.  When I purchased my engine I
      was living in Texas where it routinely is over 100 degrees.  I can tell you
      that the cold air sump probably isn't going to get me back up to 260HP by
      itself when it's over 100 in the high desert.
      Same with Deems.  While Van is in CYA mode against increased HP, Van is also
      setting himself up for lawsuits in the other direction by impacting safety.
      If he had the chance to make a non-impacting change to his design to improve
      safety and didn't do it, it's no better than encouraging wild modifications.
      Scott is checking with Van on if he can drop ship the mount directly to Alan
      for modification but he's afraid that they may also give the same
      impression.  Give me a break.  How about if I sign a legal release of
      responsibility like I had to when I deleted items from the finish kit.  Or
      better yet I can give him Alan's home address as mine.  Or they can take the
      don't ask, don't tell approach.  This is just silly.
      
        I'm not slinging mud at Van's, I'm simply stating that if they have a
      solution they should implement it.  That's called customer service and
      improving a product.  Unfortunately they have a long history of ignoring
      customer suggestions and going on their merry way (fiberglass, shipping,
      etc).  They make a great aircraft kit but there is no way to hide from
      lawsuits nowadays.  It makes me sick that people cannot assume
      responsibility for their own actions anymore to the point that everyone is
      doing lawsuit mitigation as the first step in anything.
      
        I bought an engine from Barrett and at least I know they will take care of
      any issues that arise and not run and stick their head in the sand.
      
      Michael
      Rant mode off
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:16 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      I do not see the words "hot rodding" in the SB nor do I see anything but
      Vans covering their buts.  It looks pretty simple, the motor mount is only
      guaranteed to work with the stock IO-540 without cold air induction, if you
      go with any other variation, it is on the builder to fix the motor mount.
      Also their statement about higher horse power does not limit you on the size
      of engine you are putting in, just that you must account for it in your
      operating limits in order to meet the intent of the statement in the SB.
      There are many airplanes with de-rated turbines.  
      
      Yes I have a stock IO-540....so this really doesn't affect me. But, I hate
      to see this mud slinging at Vans on something that they are reasonably
      handling.....now about the fiberglass parts.........
      
      Rene' Felker
      40322
      N423CF
      801-721-6080
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:47 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      
      Deems,
      
        Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount?  I would like to
      know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine.  I take exception
      with the SB.  First of all I paid a crap load of money for a Lycoming and my
      Barrett engine is NOT a clone.  Second of all, Lycoming offers a cold air
      induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
      Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
      
        If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without impacting
      everyone else, they should.  I agree that they do not need to accommodate
      every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod and I'm not doing
      it to hot rod anything.  I have a HP limiting device called a throttle and
      the additional HP I may see is to get me out of short strips or high density
      altitude locations, not to get me there 10 minutes sooner.  I really wish
      Van's would get the difference already and move on with the stupid hot
      rodding crap.
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 limbo
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      
      us "Hot Rodders"
      
      http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      
      Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      
      be doing any more!
      
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Van's Motor Mount SB Ranting
From: 
"Jon A. Delamarter" <jdelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com>
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      AV8ORJWC wrote:
      > Allen, thank you for clarifying what should have been obvious to most
      > builders.  Your engine is not a "clone". 
      > 
      > I have posed to Jon Delamarter that he might respond
      > on the Thunderbolt "Clone" products as well.  Next we will hear that
      > unless you buy a new engine direct from VAN, then the mount will not
      > work. That you will fall out of the sky with a Lycoming Thunderbolt.
      > 
      > John Cox
      > #40600
      > 
      > --
      
      
      If I am not mistaken, I believe that the core issue at the heart of this discussion
      really extends beyond liability concerns.  
      But first, let me back up Allen's statement regarding a "clone" Lycoming from BPA.
      A clone, in my opinion, would refer to a Superior or ECI engine.  The folks
      at Barrett assemble their engines from a box of Lycoming parts that they buy
      from us, Lycoming.  In other words, the majority of their parts come from the
      same parts bin as a certified or Thunderbolt Lycoming. As with all of our kit
      shops, they have the discretion to modify the parts or add parts that in their
      judgment are safe and suitable.  Michael and a lot of other folks have bought
      engines from BPA based on a well deserved industry reputation.  
      Having said all that, I think it is just possible that the Van's SB specifically
      mentioned Monty's custom sump/intake system due to the fact that, to date, this
      is really the only commonly used aftermarket system of it's type (Tip of the
      hat to my good friend Kevin Murray at SkyDynamics; Kevin's system uses a stock
      Lycoming sump and is not exactly an equivalent.)  Monty led the way in the
      experimental aftermarket with his system long before the RV-10 was on Van's drawing
      boards.  And yes, to Michael's point, the cold-air system we are developing
      in Thunderbolt is similiar enough that I expect that the same interference
      would occur.  (I must take a technical exception to one of your points, though
      Michael; a Barrett engine is not a stock Lycoming engine by definition.  Neither
      is any engine that we build here in Thunderbolt.  That's not a bad thing!
      It just means that those of us in the custom experimental engine market have
      an opportunity to do things a little differently.)  
      To Van's point, I understand their reticence to implicitly or tacitly endorse modifications
      of their design.  Once that is allowed to begin, where does it end?
      The line simply must be drawn somewhere.  We cannot in good conscience ask
      an engineer to design in a safety margin and then endorse our intention to disregard
      that margin.  Again, to Michael's point, throttle/manifold pressure management
      is a legitimate method for limiting horsepower.
      Now to the core issue I mentioned at the beginning.  Those of us who participate
      in the experimental aircraft market do so knowing full well that the law supports
      the individual builder's right to modify the end product at will.  Participation
      at any level is therefore risk inherent.  Therefore, as a member of this
      group, I would ask that you would be patient with our attempts to balance
      innovation and performance with safety and reasonable risk.
      
      --------
      Jon A. Delamarter
      Thunderbolt Manager
      Lycoming Engines
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89801#89801
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      Fred,
        I think ultimately you can get a "hotrodded" RV approved. It would
      depend on how comfortable and familiar the FAA DAR or Inspector is
      with the modification, the original design, and the level the
      modification deviates from the original. As an experimental aircraft,
      if you can figure how to install one or two turbine powerplants to an
      RV-10, you are free to do so (an extreme example I know). The key will
      be how many hoops your FAA rep will make you go through to "prove"
      your ship is airworthy. One of the good things about buying a kit from
      Van's you get the design and engineering work they put into the
      original airframe as a basis for your ship and if yours is within the
      design limits studied by Van's, then I think you have an easier time
      with your paperwork. The further away from a "standard" RV-10 you go,
      don't be surprized that the FAA reps will want to see some engineering
      analysis to support the re-design and don't look to Van's to support
      you either partly due to the "cover my ass" syndrome.
         There's a couple points that should be considered why Van's has a
      "CMA" attitude towards "major" modifications: 1) They spent a lot of
      time and money developing an airframe that conforms to a certain set
      of criteria. Van's could incur considerable expense studying each
      deviation request coming in from the builder community. The results
      could drastically affect one or more aspect of the original design,
      which in Van's opinion could be detrimental to the overall utility of
      the airframe. 2) As kit airplanes become an increasing percentage of
      the overall GA fleet, especially those aircraft 18 years and newer,
      it's increasingly likely that some ambulance chaser is salivating at
      the chance to go after a kit manufacturer. A modification that greatly
      degraded some part of the performance criteria of the airframe
      originally set by Van's and was supported by analysis by Van's could
      be blood in the water to the legal sharks should that aircraft crash.
      For now, the 51% rule shields Van's, and that theuy probably don't
      have the corporate deep pockets like Cessna or Beechcraft, but other
      support services may not see such protection.
         Does anyone know if Van's faced a threat of lawsuit from the
      Arlington crash mentioned in a previous post? If it wasn't then, I
      feel sooner or later a kit maker will see a liability suit as a result
      of a crash. I think liability concerns may affect all kit makers and
      could kill the industry as it helped depress the production industry
      way back when. Hopefully this won't happen until after I begin work on
      my own airplane.
          Bottom-line is I see valid reasons for Van's position to
      modifications beyond the original design criteria of its airframes.
      And on the otherhand, I support those experimenters who want
      improvements for their own personal birds, it is EXPERIMENTING
      afterall. But, don't go whining when the Feds want you to support your
      modifications with rational analysis and Van's tells you you're on
      your own.
      
      JKH.
      
      On 1/23/07, Fred Williams, M.D.  wrote:
      > 
      >
      > Question:
      >
      > Has anybody run into problems getting the RV 10 certified as "airworthy"
      > when they have installed a modified (increased horsepower) Lycoming
      > engine?   Does this continue to fall under the experimental regs of
      > building our own aircraft?
      >
      > Fred Williams
      > 40515
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      
      
      "we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > your mounts modified."
      
      That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my 
      decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big 
      decisions.
      
      Maybe we all need to send something to Van's and have them publish a 
      concrete reason for releasing something that surely has nothing to do with 
      Safety. I may be wrong on this but when I see a Service Bulletin I take it 
      to mean- improvement found that will make the part, or other safer. A more 
      powerful engine may get me to go slightly faster but just how much faster 
      than the 201MPH advertised.. no power means I get over the mountains sooner, 
      it means I have it if I want it. Vic, as an example has more power and he 
      has said more than once he rarely uses more than 75% on his plane.. but he 
      has it if he needs it. I see adding 20-30hp as a good thing and Van's using 
      a SB so people like Deems don't have their welder do extra work by re 
      welding to fit anything different than a stock engine, versus Van's just 
      working with Mattituck, Thunderbolt, Barrett and any other engine company 
      out there driving their kits to work out a motor mount that fits them all- 
      ie make the mount fit the largest sump out there without safety issues. It's 
      been done for Tim, Deems and probably many more out there. It's experimental 
      and it HAS been tested so just weld a different motor mount and skip the SB.
      
      I am still clueless to the motor mount but the point is  I have seen two 
      perspectives here. 1) we'll take care of the motor mounts as part of the 
      engine price and 2) We won't modify nor support you if you don't use a stock 
      engine.
      
      if it wasn't for #2 making the kit I would consider taking my business 
      elsewhere, but I think back to why did Van's publish a SB? I really would 
      like an explanantion for the logic with proof to back it up. More is not 
      worse unless we were talking out of C/G weights or a turbine engine.. than I 
      would understand..
      
      John C (since you're so close), take a walk down to Van's and get us an 
      explanation, if anyone can do it it's you!
      
      Pascal
      
      
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:08 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      >
      >
      > Wow Deems.  Thanks for passing this along.  There are a few points that
      > should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
      > are still in the homework phase of engine selection.  Primarily, the
      > Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine.  It is made
      > of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of their
      > kit program.  The only exception is the cold air induction sump, plenum
      > and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
      > experimental arena.  In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
      > at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons.  Oops,
      > and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior.  Other than
      > that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540.  Of course the
      > IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
      >
      > There is a clearance issue with the mount.  I do have a local source for
      > the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along to
      > anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
      > cold air induction.  This individual has modified the RV-10 engine mount
      > with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few days,
      > and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      > added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      >
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > your mounts modified.
      >
      > Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate for
      > you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants.  We
      > have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp.  Van's has an
      > interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine.  I doubt very seriously
      > that he is selling them to you at cost!
      >
      > Thank for your continued support.
      >
      > Allen Barrett
      > Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
      > 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
      > Tulsa, OK  74115
      > (918) 835-1089 phone
      > (918) 835-1754 fax
      > www.barrettprecisionengines.com
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >
      >
      > Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
      >
      > us "Hot Rodders"
      >
      > http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      >
      > Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
      >
      > be doing any more!
      >
      >
      > Deems Davis # 406
      > Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      > http://deemsrv10.com/
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      The only issue is maybe the FAA/DAR telling you 40hrs versus 25 hour test 
      fly-off. Otherwise that's it.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:50 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Vans motor mount SB
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Question:
      >
      > Has anybody run into problems getting the RV 10 certified as "airworthy" 
      > when they have installed a modified (increased horsepower) Lycoming 
      > engine?   Does this continue to fall under the experimental regs of 
      > building our own aircraft?
      > Fred Williams
      > 40515
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB Ranting
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
        In reality the 260HP number means next to nothing.  The real limiting
      factors are in the size and weight of the engine, any changes that it
      causes to the CG, possible torque increases on the mount, and most
      importantly VNE.  Van's is stating that they believe that there is no
      chance to exceed their design limitations in normal flight with an
      engine rated at 260HP.  I say rated because it is impossible to say if a
      engine is putting out more or less HP unless someone builds reference
      data for that engine using a known measurement like a dyno.
      
      
        So that being said, if someone limits an engine of any size to the
      same characteristics they are not exceeding the design specifications.
      In the case of a larger engine, anyone can mitigate weight issues by
      doing a weight and balance.  In my case the sump is lighter than the
      stock component.   Torque, well that can be a bit of a guess as I'm
      betting Van never did any destructive testing on their mounts so they
      have no idea if there is a flaw in even the current version that could
      rear its ugly head down the road.  But then again there is a fair amount
      of data at this point on the "stock" 540 in an RV-10 for us to take a
      good guess that there isn't a problem.  Most of us that are making
      improvements to the engine are doing it to the exact same 260HP Lycoming
      IO-540 that is considered acceptable so let's just assume the mount is
      perfectly fine for this application.  That leaves us with the VNE issue.
      There are plenty of ways to exceed VNE with a stock 260HP engine.  If
      you cross the manufactures set VNE limit you have moved into the test
      pilot realm and you are on your own.  Hopefully you know what you are
      doing.  If the modifications to my engine put me over 300HP (they
      didn't) it makes absolutely no difference to the aircraft as long as the
      other parameters are kept in check.  Easiest way to do that is by
      connecting your eyes watching your airspeed with the hand controlling
      the throttle.
      
      
        So my point is I don't feel it's an actual amount of power expressed
      in HP that is the issue as that really has no direct bearing on if you
      will fall out of the sky.  So if that number is really irrelevant as
      long as you keep things inside the design boundaries, who cares what the
      actual HP number is?  Operating limits are valid numbers and also
      something Van should absolutely stand behind but I would rather see
      those than just saying arbitrarily that anything over 260HP is going to
      be a problem.
      
      
        It's Van's choice on whether or not to accommodate the builders out
      there and Barrett's cold air induction is a popular option.  As I told
      Scott, I understand their decision even if I don't agree with it.  Allen
      immediately had a solution to the problem so I'm not concerned.  You can
      also bet that Thunderbolt is going to be pushing their cold air
      induction from Lycoming and they will see the same problem.  Will Van's
      have the same stance on the subject even though it is a direct Lycoming
      option?  Maybe Van's will silently change the mount design under the
      guise of optimization once this subject dies out a bit so they can say
      they didn't do it for the hot rodders out there.  Time will tell.  In
      the mean time Scott has agreed to drop ship my mount directly to Barrett
      for his local man to modify.  I'm glad to see they are willing to work
      to a compromise with some of us on this.  If anyone else is ordering an
      engine with cold air, make sure you add this request to the finish kit
      order.  Once I have it back I'll be happy to post pictures.  Interesting
      thing is that I've been told the first several kits didn't even have the
      troublesome cross member in the engine mount and haven't been replaced.
      
      
      Michael
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:07 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB Ranting
      
      
      I don't want to ruffle anyones feathers here, but here is a different
      point of view.
      
      
      I had talked to Van's regarding the certified engines about 1 to 1.5
      years ago.  They did not try to just sell me a certified engine.  In
      fact they told me that the I was better off getting an experimental
      engine from one of the engine builders.  So my experience with Van's
      makes me believe that they are not out to just sell an engine; and of
      course they make money selling engines.  The RV10's, RV9, RV7s and RV8
      are selling well and I am sure Van is doing very well financially.  Now
      a few crashes of RV10 due to supposedly structural problems could slow
      his sales down in a hurry so I think his viewpoint is based more on
      safety then selling engines.
      
      
      As far as hot rodding, there is definitely an actual amount of power
      above which  one might get in trouble if they don't modify the structure
      to handle it.  Is that 260hp 300hp or 400hp it appears no one knows.
      Van's claims that it can handle 260 hp but they don't want to stick
      their neck out any further and I don't blame them for that.  The 260hp
      number is what their design and testing is based on.  Is there some
      margin?  Probably, if not they cut it too close.  
      
      
      If its okay to go to 280hp is it okay to go to 300hp or 350hp how about
      500hp?  Where is the cutoff?  Should the person going to 300hp have to
      do some homework to ensure that the aircraft will be safe with that much
      power?  If the plane does come apart and people get killed than was he
      not negligent ?  I can see having to defend this in court, "Are you a
      structural or aeronautical engineer?  No. Have you designed any aircraft
      or have experience designing aircraft? No.  Well then if the designer of
      the aircraft thought that it was not capable of handling more than 260
      hp, and repeatedly said so, what made you think that you knew better?"
      and no I am not a lawyer.  The bottom line to this is if you are going
      to modify it and fly it outside the envelope that Van's has designed it
      for than you need to do the analysis and/or testing to verify that its
      safe in the expanded envelope.
      
      
      Lets go back to the fatigue discussions we had several times on this
      list.  If there was a fatigue critical item in the engine compartment
      (i.e. engine mounts, engine mount support fittings aft of the firewall
      that are ending up with short edge distance in a lot of aircraft, etc)
      then going to 286 hp (10% increase) would halve the life of these items
      and at 315 hp you would have approximately only 1/4 of the life left.
      And maybe you allready ate away at half the life because your edge
      distances were to small.  Now for someone going to 315 hp are you sure
      that those items are not critical?
      
      
      Niko
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      
        The short version is Van's was hit with a lawsuit around similar items
      in the past.  They made modifications to the RV-10 mount in the past
      because their mockup was wrong.  When they realized that Deems issue was
      because of the cold air sump, and others were in the pipeline, they kept
      their word to Deems and then issued the SB stopping any future
      modifications.  Good thing Tim didn't let them know he had a Lightspeed
      ignition on his when he sent it back for modification, might be
      producing more than 260HP.
      
      Michael
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:03 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      "we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine
      equipped
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > your mounts modified."
      
      That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my 
      decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big 
      decisions.
      
      Maybe we all need to send something to Van's and have them publish a 
      concrete reason for releasing something that surely has nothing to do
      with 
      Safety. I may be wrong on this but when I see a Service Bulletin I take
      it 
      to mean- improvement found that will make the part, or other safer. A
      more 
      powerful engine may get me to go slightly faster but just how much
      faster 
      than the 201MPH advertised.. no power means I get over the mountains
      sooner, 
      it means I have it if I want it. Vic, as an example has more power and
      he 
      has said more than once he rarely uses more than 75% on his plane.. but
      he 
      has it if he needs it. I see adding 20-30hp as a good thing and Van's
      using 
      a SB so people like Deems don't have their welder do extra work by re 
      welding to fit anything different than a stock engine, versus Van's just
      
      working with Mattituck, Thunderbolt, Barrett and any other engine
      company 
      out there driving their kits to work out a motor mount that fits them
      all- 
      ie make the mount fit the largest sump out there without safety issues.
      It's 
      been done for Tim, Deems and probably many more out there. It's
      experimental 
      and it HAS been tested so just weld a different motor mount and skip the
      SB.
      
      I am still clueless to the motor mount but the point is  I have seen two
      
      perspectives here. 1) we'll take care of the motor mounts as part of the
      
      engine price and 2) We won't modify nor support you if you don't use a
      stock 
      engine.
      
      if it wasn't for #2 making the kit I would consider taking my business 
      elsewhere, but I think back to why did Van's publish a SB? I really
      would 
      like an explanantion for the logic with proof to back it up. More is not
      
      worse unless we were talking out of C/G weights or a turbine engine..
      than I 
      would understand..
      
      John C (since you're so close), take a walk down to Van's and get us an 
      explanation, if anyone can do it it's you!
      
      Pascal
      
      
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:08 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      >
      >
      > Wow Deems.  Thanks for passing this along.  There are a few points
      that
      > should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
      > are still in the homework phase of engine selection.  Primarily, the
      > Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine.  It is
      made
      > of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of
      their
      > kit program.  The only exception is the cold air induction sump,
      plenum
      > and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
      > experimental arena.  In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
      > at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons.  Oops,
      > and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior.  Other than
      > that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540.  Of course the
      > IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
      >
      > There is a clearance issue with the mount.  I do have a local source
      for
      > the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along
      to
      > anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
      > cold air induction.  This individual has modified the RV-10 engine
      mount
      > with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few
      days,
      > and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      > added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      >
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine
      equipped
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > your mounts modified.
      >
      > Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate
      for
      > you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants.
      We
      > have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp.  Van's has an
      > interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine.  I doubt very
      seriously
      > that he is selling them to you at cost!
      >
      > Thank for your continued support.
      >
      > Allen Barrett
      > Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
      > 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
      > Tulsa, OK  74115
      > (918) 835-1089 phone
      > (918) 835-1754 fax
      > www.barrettprecisionengines.com
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >
      >
      > Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed
      at
      >
      > us "Hot Rodders"
      >
      > http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      >
      > Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they
      won't
      >
      > be doing any more!
      >
      >
      > Deems Davis # 406
      > Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      > http://deemsrv10.com/
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Rudder cable exits on tailcone
      
      
      Thanks Deems and everyone else who responded (I've been offline for a 
      few days).  I will be getting some of those Aircraft Spruce cable exits.
      
      Deems Davis wrote:
      >
      > I used parts from Aircraft Spruce, 
      > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/ruddercable.php  you can 
      > get them from Cleveland, Wicks and others no doubt.
      > "DDD" is my shorthand for doing the "*D*rill, *D*ebur, and *D*imple" 
      > Dance, as your have learned by now, you get LOTS of practice at this!
      >
      > Deems Davis # 406
      > Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      > http://deemsrv10.com/
      >
      > MauleDriver wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Who used what here?  I remember a recent post regarding 3rd party 
      >> parts for this.  I see something called 'DDD' in Mr Deems tailcone.  
      >> Looking for advice here before I start riveting on the top skin.
      >>
      >> Thanks!
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com>
      
      Pascal wrote:-
      
      ["we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine 
      equipped
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > your mounts modified."
      
      That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my 
      decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big 
      decisions.]
      
      I'm with Pascal.  Unfortunately I am not inclined to send my mount from 
      South Australia for modification.  Does Allen provide a stock IO540 (ie 
      w/o cold air induction) that does not require the mount mod, and at what 
      cost?  If you're out their Allen, please reply off list if you wish.
      
      cheers,
      Ron
      Selecting an engine
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Ring gear mounting bolts
      
      
      Allen, sorry about all the hoopla re engine mounts. They say any 
      publicity is good publicity, hope this works that way for you. Looks 
      like your response drew some favorable remarks.
      
      I have a question about what size/type of bolts to use for mounting the 
      ring gear to the crank/prop flange. can you send me the size? Are there 
      any special characteristics for these bolts? Any thread sealant or 
      anything other than put em in and torque them?
      
      THANKS
      
      Deems
      
      >  
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.com>
      
      On the subject of engines, my reqts are pretty basic - standard IO540 
      D4A5 with one Mag replaced with a lightspeed plasma III.
      
      Ignoring the Lightspeed, what is the difference between buying a Vans 
      Experimental 540 at $39,900 vs say an Aerosportpower at $40,300?  $400 
      is not a lot, but what added value do the engine (re-)builders give 
      beyond the standard engine provided by Vans?
      
      cheers,
      Ron
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
      Sent: Wednesday, 24 January 2007 8:10 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Pascal wrote:- 
      
      ["we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value 
      added service with your engine at no additional charge. 
      > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine 
      equipped 
      > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting 
      
      > your mounts modified." 
      
      That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my 
      decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big 
      decisions.] 
      
      I'm with Pascal.  Unfortunately I am not inclined to send my mount from 
      South Australia for modification.  Does Allen provide a stock IO540 (ie 
      w/o cold air induction) that does not require the mount mod, and at what 
      cost?  If you're out their Allen, please reply off list if you wish.
      
      cheers, 
      Ron 
      Selecting an engine 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
Subject: 
Van's  Motor Mount SB
      
      Speaking of TIM...............where is his reply to CALM the storm here?
        For all the upset builders with built up frustration I would recommend
       grapping a sanding block, extra sandpaper and take it all out on some f
      iberglass in the SHOP.  Who knows, by the time you relieve all the frust
      ration your wheel pants and cabin top may be completely smooth and ready
       for paint!   I love this list........Educational and ENTERTAINING!  We 
      all started building these wonderful birds with very little knowledge an
      d lots of money.................and as we get close to the end of the pr
      ocess we boldly share on here our LOADS of expertise(loosely used term) 
      and realize we have little money.  Can life get any better?  Oh yea, it 
      could if I had a job.
      OK, rant mode off?
      DEAN 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      
Speaking of TIM...............where is his reply to CALM the st
      orm here?  For all the upset builders with built up frustration I w
      ould recommend grapping a sanding block, extra sandpaper and t
      ake it all out on some fiberglass in the SHOP.  Who knows, by the t
      ime you relieve all the frustration your wheel pants and cabin top may b
      e completely smooth and ready for paint!   I love this list...
      .....Educational and ENTERTAINING!  We all started building these w
      onderful birds with very little knowledge and lots of money.............
      ....and as we get close to the end of the process we boldly share&n
      bsp;on here our LOADS of expertise(loosely used term) and realize w
      e have little money.  Can life get any better?  Oh yea, it cou
      ld if I had a job.
      
OK, rant mode off?
      
DEAN 40449
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
OOPS
      
      
      Looks like I did it AGAIN, This was intended to go to Allen directly, 
      ....... measure twice drill once..........
      
      Sorry,
      
      Deems
      
      
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com>
Subject: 
Vans Motor mount SB
      
      
      James :
      
      Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  All of those issues were running 
      through my thoughts.  I understand Van's point of view and legal 
      responsibilties.  I am a gynecologist and well aware of the legal 
      ramifications of something done "outside of the standard of care."  
      After having talked with Mr Barrett at Oshgosh last year I am leaning 
      toward having him build me an engine.  I see a lot of benefits in his 
      designs.  The changes make sense.  But again, not being an engineer and 
      being truely able to back up with documentation any significant 
      powerplant changes, I do not want to invest 150K on this airplane and 
      have a paperwork fight to get it certified. 
      
      I have followed the posts and know that if I put a "stock"  Lycoming  in 
      my 10 I will have a great airplane that will last me for 20 years. 
      
      I appreciate all of the input from the previous builders.  It's 
      discussion of these issues that move things forward and make it safer 
      for all of us.  We better know the questions to ask. 
      
      I just read the last couple of posts before I sent this reply.  All this 
      is because of Deems pushing the wrong button?   :)   He sure knows how 
      to stir the pot.  
      
      
      Fred Williams
      Money rapidly leaving the checkbook
      Hey, the fuselage is here, fiberglass and all.  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Van's  Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      I,m so glad Van's issued that SB.  I was getting tired of the counterweight 
      discussion....  hehehe
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264
      currently installing JATO bottles 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Cold Air Induction
From: 
"Jon Reining" <jonathan.w.reining(at)wellsfargo.com>
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months since I've been to Oshkosh...
      
      With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion and cowls (and since
      it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) - what does cold air induction
      do for you?  More horsepower?  Less weight?  Basically, how does it work
      and why is it good?  
      
      If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it fit in a Holy Cowl?
      
      
      If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact on horsepower and speed?
      
      
      Jon Reining
      40514 - tailcone
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89901#89901
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rob Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: 
front wheel
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      Anybody seen torque values for the front wheel halves?  It's an AN4 bolt, so
      50-70 plus drag should be correct.  Just wondering if there are other
      guidelines.
      
      
      Rob Wright
      
      #392
      
      Fuse & gear, waiting for interior paint to arrive.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Cold Air Induction
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      
        Yes, yes, and yes.  :-)  The cold air induction basically removes the
      intake tubes from the oil sump (stock configuration) which heat soaks
      the incoming air.  Hot air is less dense which means less HP.  Barrett's
      sump is also magnesium which is lighter than the stock sump.  As for the
      holy cowl, you need to go with the James cowl anyway which is made for
      the cold air unless you want to do a bunch of work on the stock cowl ala
      Gary Specketer.  Figure on the credit for the stock cowl being around
      $800 by the time you subtract the various parts.
      
        Net impact, unknown at this time.  The first couple of this
      combination are still coming out of the gate.  I believe the cowl on
      something like an RV-4 gains you about 10 mph and the cold air induction
      is good for around 10 ponies.
      
      Michael
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Reining
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:56 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Cold Air Induction
      
      
      
      Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months since I've
      been to Oshkosh...
      
      With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion and cowls
      (and since it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) - what
      does cold air induction do for you?  More horsepower?  Less weight?
      Basically, how does it work and why is it good?  
      
      If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it fit in a
      Holy Cowl?  
      
      If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact on
      horsepower and speed?  
      
      Jon Reining
      40514 - tailcone
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89901#89901
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Cold Air Induction
      
      
      Standard Lycoming induction has the induction air routed through the oil 
      sump, the result is that the air intake to the cylinders is heated by 
      the surrounding oil in the sump. Cold Air Induction takes ram air and 
      routes it directly to each cylinders intake bypassing the oil sump. this 
      requires a custom oil sump and hence the recent discussion. If you 
      remember your pilot training, Cold air is more dense and produces a 
      stronger air charge going into the cylinder, which results in more 
      manifold pressure and more power (OOPS there I go again hot rodding!). 
      Its kind of like putting a booster on your engine without adding any 
      moving parts.  Free power (well almost free) !. The answer as to does it 
      add horsepower depends on who's asking,  but I'm VERY happy with the 
      results of my Dyno run ! :-)
      Less weight : marginally but not enough to be concerned with.
      Holy Cowl fit : Will James has made an RV-10 lower cowl that fits the 
      BPE Cold air induction. He also has the Holy cowl for standard induction.
      Net effect: Horsepower increases, Allen can tell you how much if you 
      contact him. All things being equal speed should increase, but it takes 
      a lot more ponies to equal 1 additional knot. (I'm not sure what the 
      ratio is but it's definitely NOT 1:1. Since there are no RV-10's flying 
      with cold air yet there are no performance numbers to report only 
      'hopes'. Perhaps later this year.
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      Jon Reining wrote:
      
      >
      >Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months since I've been to
      Oshkosh...
      >
      >With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion and cowls (and since
      it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) - what does cold air induction
      do for you?  More horsepower?  Less weight?  Basically, how does it work
      and why is it good?  
      >
      >If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it fit in a Holy Cowl?
      
      >
      >If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact on horsepower and
      speed?  
      >
      >Jon Reining
      >40514 - tailcone
      >
      >
      >Read this topic online here:
      >
      >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89901#89901
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Gary,
          I'm not sure if the rudder trim affects the balance requirements or not. 
      I'd check with Van's tech support, any answer I'd give would be a guess....
      
      John Hasbrouck 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Van's Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Is there anything these guys like about Vans?  Seems like there are 66+ of 
      us out there flying RV-10's that are very pleased with the kit and the 
      support we have received from Vans.
      
      Mark (N410MR Flying)
      
      
      >From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:49:57 -0500
      >
      >
      >I,m so glad Van's issued that SB.  I was getting tired of the counterweight 
      >discussion....  hehehe
      >
      >John Hasbrouck
      >#40264
      >currently installing JATO bottles
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo  buy and sell with people 
      you know 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Van's Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Michael,
      
      Got anything positive to say about a great kit?  A few more tacky comments 
      like this and we can consider the source.
      
      Mark (N410MR Flying)
      
      
      >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:49:38 -0600
      >
      >
      >
      >   The short version is Van's was hit with a lawsuit around similar items
      >in the past.  They made modifications to the RV-10 mount in the past
      >because their mockup was wrong.  When they realized that Deems issue was
      >because of the cold air sump, and others were in the pipeline, they kept
      >their word to Deems and then issued the SB stopping any future
      >modifications.  Good thing Tim didn't let them know he had a Lightspeed
      >ignition on his when he sent it back for modification, might be
      >producing more than 260HP.
      >
      >Michael
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
      >Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:03 PM
      >To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >
      >
      >"we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      >added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      > > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine
      >equipped
      > > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > > your mounts modified."
      >
      >That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my
      >decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big
      >decisions.
      >
      >Maybe we all need to send something to Van's and have them publish a
      >concrete reason for releasing something that surely has nothing to do
      >with
      >Safety. I may be wrong on this but when I see a Service Bulletin I take
      >it
      >to mean- improvement found that will make the part, or other safer. A
      >more
      >powerful engine may get me to go slightly faster but just how much
      >faster
      >than the 201MPH advertised.. no power means I get over the mountains
      >sooner,
      >it means I have it if I want it. Vic, as an example has more power and
      >he
      >has said more than once he rarely uses more than 75% on his plane.. but
      >he
      >has it if he needs it. I see adding 20-30hp as a good thing and Van's
      >using
      >a SB so people like Deems don't have their welder do extra work by re
      >welding to fit anything different than a stock engine, versus Van's just
      >
      >working with Mattituck, Thunderbolt, Barrett and any other engine
      >company
      >out there driving their kits to work out a motor mount that fits them
      >all-
      >ie make the mount fit the largest sump out there without safety issues.
      >It's
      >been done for Tim, Deems and probably many more out there. It's
      >experimental
      >and it HAS been tested so just weld a different motor mount and skip the
      >SB.
      >
      >I am still clueless to the motor mount but the point is  I have seen two
      >
      >perspectives here. 1) we'll take care of the motor mounts as part of the
      >
      >engine price and 2) We won't modify nor support you if you don't use a
      >stock
      >engine.
      >
      >if it wasn't for #2 making the kit I would consider taking my business
      >elsewhere, but I think back to why did Van's publish a SB? I really
      >would
      >like an explanantion for the logic with proof to back it up. More is not
      >
      >worse unless we were talking out of C/G weights or a turbine engine..
      >than I
      >would understand..
      >
      >John C (since you're so close), take a walk down to Van's and get us an
      >explanation, if anyone can do it it's you!
      >
      >Pascal
      >
      >
      >To: 
      >Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:08 AM
      >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Wow Deems.  Thanks for passing this along.  There are a few points
      >that
      > > should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
      > > are still in the homework phase of engine selection.  Primarily, the
      > > Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine.  It is
      >made
      > > of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of
      >their
      > > kit program.  The only exception is the cold air induction sump,
      >plenum
      > > and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
      > > experimental arena.  In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
      > > at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons.  Oops,
      > > and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior.  Other than
      > > that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540.  Of course the
      > > IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
      > >
      > > There is a clearance issue with the mount.  I do have a local source
      >for
      > > the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along
      >to
      > > anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
      > > cold air induction.  This individual has modified the RV-10 engine
      >mount
      > > with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few
      >days,
      > > and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
      > > added service with your engine at no additional charge.
      > >
      > > For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine
      >equipped
      > > with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
      > > your mounts modified.
      > >
      > > Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate
      >for
      > > you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants.
      >We
      > > have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp.  Van's has an
      > > interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine.  I doubt very
      >seriously
      > > that he is selling them to you at cost!
      > >
      > > Thank for your continued support.
      > >
      > > Allen Barrett
      > > Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
      > > 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
      > > Tulsa, OK  74115
      > > (918) 835-1089 phone
      > > (918) 835-1754 fax
      > > www.barrettprecisionengines.com
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:02 PM
      > > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      > > Subject: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      > >
      > >
      > > Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed
      >at
      > >
      > > us "Hot Rodders"
      > >
      > > http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
      > >
      > > Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they
      >won't
      > >
      > > be doing any more!
      > >
      > >
      > > Deems Davis # 406
      > > Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      > > http://deemsrv10.com/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Van's Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      Mark
           Seems to me that Van's is simply saying that they will provide one 
      motor mount that works with the engines they have available ( and many other 
      Lycomings as well ) but don't expect them to modify it if it doesn't work 
      for a particular engine.  That's the builders responsibility.  Never in the 
      Service LETTER ( not bulletin ) is the word prohibited used.  Van's doesn't 
      recommend 260+ HP but you can do whatever you want.  It's experimental, 
      you're the builder, have at it.  Hang a PT6 on the nose if you want but 
      Van's isn't going to offer any help.  As it should be IMHO.  The DAR is not 
      responsible for your choices of modifications either only that they are 
      installed according to generally accepted practice and conform to W & B 
      specs.  He'll sign off on the PT6, give you a 40 hour flyoff, a look of 
      concern and if you haven't killed yourself in that time you can continue to 
      phase 2.  That's the great thing about the experimental category.  Indeed 
      this is a great kit and the fact that 60+ are flying so soon after initial 
      introduction proves it...
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
Re: Cold Air Induction
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      Hello, We are nor anywhere near the engine stage yet, but my wife and I would like
      to know if Vans will give you credit on their cowl, if one decides to get
      a Holy Cowl. Also, how do you get in touch with Will James. Thank you.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> 
      
      > 
      > Standard Lycoming induction has the induction air routed through the oil 
      > sump, the result is that the air intake to the cylinders is heated by 
      > the surrounding oil in the sump. Cold Air Induction takes ram air and 
      > routes it directly to each cylinders intake bypassing the oil sump. this 
      > requires a custom oil sump and hence the recent discussion. If you 
      > remember your pilot training, Cold air is more dense and produces a 
      > stronger air charge going into the cylinder, which results in more 
      > manifold pressure and more power (OOPS there I go again hot rodding!). 
      > Its kind of like putting a booster on your engine without adding any 
      > moving parts. Free power (well almost free) !. The answer as to does it 
      > add horsepower depends on who's asking, but I'm VERY happy with the 
      > results of my Dyno run ! :-) 
      > Less weight : marginally but not enough to be concerned with. 
      > Holy Cowl fit : Will James has made an RV-10 lower cowl that fits the 
      > BPE Cold air induction. He also has the Holy cowl for standard induction. 
      > Net effect: Horsepower increases, Allen can tell you how much if you 
      > contact him. All things being equal speed should increase, but it takes 
      > a lot more ponies to equal 1 additional knot. (I'm not sure what the 
      > ratio is but it's definitely NOT 1:1. Since there are no RV-10's flying 
      > with cold air yet there are no performance numbers to report only 
      > 'hopes'. Perhaps later this year. 
      > 
      > Deems Davis # 406 
      > Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) 
      > http://deemsrv10.com/ 
      > 
      > Jon Reining wrote: 
      > 
      > 
      > > 
      > >Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months since I've been to
      
      > Oshkosh... 
      > > 
      > >With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion and cowls (and
      
      > since it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) - what does cold air
      
      > induction do for you? More horsepower? Less weight? Basically, how does it 
      > work and why is it good? 
      > > 
      > >If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it fit in a Holy 
      > Cowl? 
      > > 
      > >If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact on horsepower and
      
      > speed? 
      > > 
      > >Jon Reining 
      > >40514 - tailcone 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > >Read this topic online here: 
      > > 
      > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89901#89901 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
Hello, We are nor anywhere near the engine stage yet, but my wife and I would
      like to know if Vans will give you credit on their cowl, if one decides to
      get a Holy Cowl. Also, how do you get in touch with Will James. Thank you.
      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      
#40666
      
 
      

> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems
      Davis 
> 
> Standard Lycoming induction has
      the induction air routed through the oil 
> sump, the result is that the
      air intake to the cylinders is heated by 
> the surrounding oil in the
      sump. Cold Air Induction takes ram air and 
> routes it directly to each
      cylinders intake bypassing the oil sump. this 
> requires a custom oil
      sump and hence the recent discussion. If you 
> remember your pilot training,
      Cold air is more dense and produces a 
> stronger air charge going
      into the cylinder, which results in more 
> manifold pressure and more
      power (OOPS there I go again hot rodding!). 
> Its kind of like putting
      a booster on your engine without adding any 
>
       ; movi
      ng parts. Free power (well almost free) !. The answer as to does it 
> add horsepower depends on who's asking, but I'm VERY happy with the 
> results of my Dyno run ! :-) 
> Less weight : marginally but not enough to be concerned with. 
> Holy Cowl fit : Will James has made an RV-10 lower cowl that fits the 
> BPE Cold air induction. He also has the Holy cowl for standard induction. 
> Net effect: Horsepower increases, Allen can tell you how much if you 
> contact him. All things being equal speed should increase, but it takes 
> a lot more ponies to equal 1 additional knot. (I'm not sure what the 
> ratio is but it's definitely NOT 1:1. Since there are no RV-10's flying 
> with cold air yet there are no performance numbers to report only 
> 'hopes'. Perhaps later this year. 
> 
> Deems Davis # 406 
> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) 
> http://deemsrv10.com/ 
> 
> Jon Reining wro
       te: > 
> >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jon Reining" 
> 
> > 
> >Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months since I've been to 
> Oshkosh... 
> > 
> >With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion and cowls (and 
> since it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) - what does cold air 
> induction do for you? More horsepower? Less weight? Basically, how does it 
> work and why is it good? 
> > 
> >If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it fit in a Holy 
> Cowl? 
> > 
> >If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact on horsepower and 
> speed? 
> > 
> >Jon Reining 
> >40514 - tailcone 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >Read this topic online here: 
> > 
> >http://for
       ums.ma
       >> 
      
> 
> 

      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Cold Air Induction
      
      
      Yes, Van's will give you a credit.
      
      Try this: http://www.jamesaircraft.com/
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
      cloudvalley(at)comcast.net wrote:
      
      > Hello, We are nor anywhere near the engine stage yet, but my wife and 
      > I would like to know if Vans will give you credit on their cowl, if 
      > one decides to get a Holy Cowl. Also, how do you get in touch with 
      > Will James. Thank you.
      > Brian and Ruth Preston
      > #40666
      >  
      >
      >     -
      >
      >**
      >**
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Van's Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
      
      
      John,
      
      Well put.
      
      Mark
      
      
      >From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:57:52 -0500
      >
      >
      >Mark
      >     Seems to me that Van's is simply saying that they will provide one 
      >motor mount that works with the engines they have available ( and many 
      >other Lycomings as well ) but don't expect them to modify it if it doesn't 
      >work for a particular engine.  That's the builders responsibility.  Never 
      >in the Service LETTER ( not bulletin ) is the word prohibited used.  Van's 
      >doesn't recommend 260+ HP but you can do whatever you want.  It's 
      >experimental, you're the builder, have at it.  Hang a PT6 on the nose if 
      >you want but Van's isn't going to offer any help.  As it should be IMHO.  
      >The DAR is not responsible for your choices of modifications either only 
      >that they are installed according to generally accepted practice and 
      >conform to W & B specs.  He'll sign off on the PT6, give you a 40 hour 
      >flyoff, a look of concern and if you haven't killed yourself in that time 
      >you can continue to phase 2.  That's the great thing about the experimental 
      >category.  Indeed this is a great kit and the fact that 60+ are flying so 
      >soon after initial introduction proves it...
      >
      >John Hasbrouck
      >#40264
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop. 
      http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Cold Air Induction
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
        Yes, they will credit you for anything you want to delete from the
      kits including the cowl.  They do tell you if you order the cowl after
      the fact expect the price to be a great deal higher.  Makes sense as it
      keeps them from having to deal with people that change their minds after
      it shipped.  As I said earlier, it's about an $800 difference.
      
      
        You can get in touch with Will at www.jamesaircraft.com. 
      
      
      Michael
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:00 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cold Air Induction
      
      
      Hello, We are nor anywhere near the engine stage yet, but my wife and I
      would like to know if Vans will give you credit on their cowl, if one
      decides to get a Holy Cowl. Also, how do you get in touch with Will
      James. Thank you.
      
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      
      #40666
      
      
      	-------------- Original message -------------- 
      	From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> 
      
      	> 
      	> Standard Lycoming induction has the induction air routed
      through the oil 
      	> sump, the result is that the air intake to the cylinders is
      heated by 
      	> the surrounding oil in the sump. Cold Air Induction takes ram
      air and 
      	> routes it directly to each cylinders intake bypassing the oil
      sump. this 
      	> requires a custom oil sump and hence the recent discussion. If
      you 
      	> remember your pilot training, Cold air is more dense and
      produces a 
      	> stronger air charge going into the cylinder, which results in
      more 
      	> manifold pressure and more power (OOPS there I go again hot
      rodding!). 
      	> Its kind of like putting a booster on your engine without
      adding any 
      	> ; movi ng parts. Free power (well almost free) !. The answer
      as to does it 
      	> add horsepower depends on who's asking, but I'm VERY happy
      with the 
      	> results of my Dyno run ! :-) 
      	> Less weight : marginally but not enough to be concerned with. 
      	> Holy Cowl fit : Will James has made an RV-10 lower cowl that
      fits the 
      	> BPE Cold air induction. He also has the Holy cowl for standard
      induction. 
      	> Net effect: Horsepower increases, Allen can tell you how much
      if you 
      	> contact him. All things being equal speed should increase, but
      it takes 
      	> a lot more ponies to equal 1 additional knot. (I'm not sure
      what the 
      	> ratio is but it's definitely NOT 1:1. Since there are no
      RV-10's flying 
      	> with cold air yet there are no performance numbers to report
      only 
      	> 'hopes'. Perhaps later this year. 
      	> 
      	> Deems Davis # 406 
      	> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) 
      	> http://deemsrv10.com/ 
      	> 
      	> Jon Reining wro te: > 
      	> 
      	> > 
      	> >Bless me father for I have forgotten, it's been six months
      since I've been to 
      	> Oshkosh... 
      	> > 
      	> >With all this discussion on engine mounts, cold air incudtion
      and cowls (and 
      	> since it has been awhile since I learned why at Oshkosh) -
      what does cold air 
      	> induction do for you? More horsepower? Less weight? Basically,
      how does it 
      	> work and why is it good? 
      	> > 
      	> >If you get a Barrett Engine with Cold Air Induction, will it
      fit in a Holy 
      	> Cowl? 
      	> > 
      	> >If you do one or the other, or both, what is the net impact
      on horsepower and 
      	> speed? 
      	> > 
      	> >Jon Reining 
      	> >40514 - tailcone 
      	> > 
      	> > 
      	> > 
      	> > 
      	> >Read this topic online here: 
      	> > 
      	> >http://for ums.ma >> 
      	> 
      	> 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 23, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      I think there is nothing like a lively debate on Primers and in this case 
      the engine mount SB, but I know there are a whole lot of us that are set on 
      Van's. I followed a high level composite company for a few years. I was set 
      on a 4 seater and in a way it is no different than what I am doing now. I am 
      getting a sense of is this the right kit for me.
      I am still around and pretty sure I'll be starting this kit in the next 
      couple of months, this is only after extensive research and following this 
      forum for less than 1 year. I had 3 years at the other forum and finally 
      gave up on it.. Largely because most of the builders complained about one 
      thing or another and somehow the price of the kit doubled with carbon and 
      quickerbuild and other nice upgrades thrown in. I think that last time I 
      looked the kit was now 82K, it was 38K when I started looking into it in 
      1998.
      So Van's doesn't want to cater to each of us and our individual engine 
      choice (not including their stock). Fine! Barret has his solution- so BPA is 
      solved, Thunderbolt is competitive in this market enough that they might do 
      something too, and so on but the good news is the rest of us who want a 
      stock engine from Vans don't need to worry that the cost will go up more 
      than 3% next year as a result of the few. Why am I going to build a RV-10? 
      many reasons. Mark Chamberlain for one. He invited me, never knowing who I 
      was, to see and fly and yes, fly in his plane. I never had anyone, and I saw 
      over 12 of the composites from the other company, offer to fly me in the 
      plane. Than there's Jeff Carpenter, who took a morning to go over the kit 
      with me when he had pressing engagements to get to, theres Tim, and Deems, 
      and John and most of you. Basically this group of builders is solid and we 
      feel comfortable enough to speak our minds, in jest and seriously. Let's 
      remember we are all in this for the same reason. A solid company with 30 
      years experience building the largest fleet of experimentals out there. I am 
      NOT building this plane to be unique or impress my neighbors, I'm building 
      this plane, a Van's, because I know they do care about the builders, and 
      they have the record to prove it.
      Nothing wrong with venting on delayed shipments and expensive shipping for 
      2c items from Van's or SB's that we are not in support of- we should be here 
      to support each other as I know, I too will be frustrated and want someone 
      who understands my frustration to be there for me. We are!
      Lastly, Vendor support- I see what Barrett did by offering to resolve this 
      issue as excellent.   Jon's response, from Thunderbolt, was professional and 
      shows he too is in this to make it work for all of us and Lycoming and I 
      also took that he understood Van's SB. Stein last month getting on to 
      comfort those stuck in the D2AV debacle and Mike from Cleveland  chiming in 
      at times as well. They all may be in for the business, but they care about 
      the builders too!
      All in all we are a great group of builders with great vendors who are right 
      there with us building and supporting us. I think Van's has the right to 
      publish as many SB's as they wish, as long as they don't try to keep 
      everyone happy and have an affordable kit be out of reach for the rest of 
      those who just want to build it!
      
      And with this, I end my rant!
      
      Pascal
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 6:02 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      >
      > Is there anything these guys like about Vans?  Seems like there are 66+ of 
      > us out there flying RV-10's that are very pleased with the kit and the 
      > support we have received from Vans.
      >
      > Mark (N410MR Flying)
      >
      >
      >>From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
      >>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >>To: 
      >>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      >>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:49:57 -0500
      >>
      >>
      >>I,m so glad Van's issued that SB.  I was getting tired of the 
      >>counterweight discussion....  hehehe
      >>
      >>John Hasbrouck
      >>#40264
      >>currently installing JATO bottles
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo - buy and sell with people 
      > you know
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Van's Motor Mount SB
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Tom Deutsch" <deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com>
      
      
      Some folks should simply buy airplanes and not try to build them!
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ritter
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:03 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Is there anything these guys like about Vans?  Seems like there are 66+
      of 
      us out there flying RV-10's that are very pleased with the kit and the 
      support we have received from Vans.
      
      Mark (N410MR Flying)
      
      
      >From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's  Motor Mount SB
      >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:49:57 -0500
      >
      
      >
      >I,m so glad Van's issued that SB.  I was getting tired of the
      counterweight 
      >discussion....  hehehe
      >
      >John Hasbrouck
      >#40264
      >currently installing JATO bottles
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo - buy and sell with
      people 
      you know 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
CHRISTOPHER HARRIS <cbpip(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
      
      I just wanted to give quick shout out to Ahn Vu. He invited me to take a look at
      his newly flown RV-10 at St.Marys airport the other day. It was a great pleasure
      to meet him and see a quality built aircraft. I hope to be joining the list
      of builders in the very near future, and again it was fantastic to see his
      project. Ahn exemplified the kind of person in the "community" that I would enjoy
      being associated with. My project will be a standard kit except for the huge
      rubberband up front, this will probably require mount modification to contain
      all the torque, I think I'll extend the tail feathers by a couple of feet to
      compesate with some large wieghts on the tips, or mabe just go with stock.
        Thanks again Ahn, great job.
      
      Tom Deutsch  wrote:
      
      Some folks should simply buy airplanes and not try to build them!
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ritter
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:03 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      
      
      Is there anything these guys like about Vans? Seems like there are 66+
      of 
      us out there flying RV-10's that are very pleased with the kit and the 
      support we have received from Vans.
      
      Mark (N410MR Flying)
      
      
      >From: "John Hasbrouck" 
      >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Van's Motor Mount SB
      >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:49:57 -0500
      >
      
      >
      >I,m so glad Van's issued that SB. I was getting tired of the
      counterweight 
      >discussion.... hehehe
      >
      >John Hasbrouck
      >#40264
      >currently installing JATO bottles
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo - buy and sell with
      people 
      you know 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
Subject: 
Re: HID landing light review..and info concerning Aviation
      Consumer. 
      
      In a message dated 1/23/07 7:47:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
      Tim(at)MyRV10.com writes:
      
      -->  RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson 
      
      Found  this on the "generic" RV matronics list today:
      
      For a review of HID  landing lights, see  
      http://www.preciseflight.com/ufiles/06March_Aviation_Consumer_HID_Article_Main
      .pdf  
      
      
      -- 
      Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
      do not  archive
      
      After receiving Aviation Consumer for nearly a decade, I've recently  dropped 
      my subscription for a number of reasons.  But during that time I've  read 
      some interesting articles including this review of the HID device.  If  you've
      
      not been exposed to AC's product you might want to borrow copies from  someone
      
      and review all that they have.  The folks at AC do a nice job in  testing and 
      reviewing all types of aviation products.  
      
      I've stopped my subscription for several reasons:
      
      The way this product is sent to the subscriber often leads to damage  
      product.  My monthly product has gone missing at least twice per year and  at the
      
      rate they charge, it's an expensive missing part.  If you discover  it's missing
      
      they will send you a replacement product if you request it pretty  quickly (I 
      wonder if my mail lady is a back sliding pilot want-a-bee!) if you  don't 
      request quickly then you just go to the electronic mag and review.  
      
      I began my subscriptions and renewals via mail, their renewals at  SnF and 
      KOSH were greatly lower than the mail route.  This sort of  cheese's me off and
      
      Paul B, the editor, wrote an article some time ago about how  dangerous 
      home-built's were vs production aircraft that also cheesed my  off.  
      
      Understanding his point of view, after all he's a Mooney driver, I  wrote a 
      counter article comparing the two top products in each area using NTSB  data. 
      
      Thus I selected, Van's vs. Cirrus accidents/incidents showing that  Van's have
      
      an accident rate equal to Piper...slightly above Cessna  (the safest GA plane 
      out there) vs. accidents of all types.  And that  Cirrus has higher accident 
      rate vs. Van's and Piper and many more  times the rate vs. Cessna.  Cirrus's 
      accident rates are just slight  above Bonanza.  
      
      The  numbers gathered were basic raw accident rates  from the NTSB.  For 
      Cirrus's sake, the review was written when Cirrus  was somewhat new and they were
      
      experiencing high fatal accident rates and  incidents for aircraft departing 
      the runways on take off, or brakes burning up  etc...lot's of pilot errors.  I
      
      did not weight the accident rates as  the Cirrus numbers would have been so 
      awful it would have been ridicules.   At the time Cirrus did not have that many
      
      aircraft flying as they do  today.  Their fleet was doubling about each 6 
      months, and many of their  accidents were fatal's.   
      
      I'd spent considerable time slicing the NTSB data and writing the article,  
      AC did not publish my reply but I got a note from Paul B saying my "comments" 
      
      were interesting but they would not publish my information.  So I thought  how
      
      one sided they were in their arguments.  One interesting item to  note is 
      that Cirrus's first fatal accident occurred in an experimental SR  20 so even 
      this accident counts again experimental's since the SR 20 was  not certified at
      
      the time...nor was the BRS system in place.  
      
      At the time, the RV 10 was not a product.  Many of the Van's accidents  
      occurred because people ran out of gas and had forced landings.  
      
      My believe was and still is that not many Van's aircraft are flown hard IFR  
      compared to hours flown by Cirrus pilots.  Cirrus are used in commercial  
      flights or time share services with a "leased" Commercial/ATP pilot at the  
      controls.  
      
      That the average Van's pilot had more aviation hours flown in total than  the 
      Cirrus crowd and that they had more experience in IFR and VFR that the  
      average Cirrus pilot; and having built their plane, they were more familiar with
      
      the plane than the Cirrus pilots.  And I believe that the Van's pilots are  a 
      more conservative group of pilots towards their plane and skills than are the 
      
      Cirrus folks---key word here is that this is my "belief" not based on any 
      facts  only conversations with folks that I know that own, fly and or built.
      
      All of the Van's folks in our chapter I know, really know how every little  
      thing works on their plane, mechanical, avionics etc.  The Cirrus folks I  know
      
      have a good knowledge but not overly knowledgeable.  
      
      Well since that time, I still believe the above about both products.   I'm 
      happy that Cirrus now has transitional training, and a CFI school in  
      conjunction with North Dakota.  Cessna continues to have the lowest  accident rate
      vs. 
      all other GA or Experimental aircraft.  And the RV  10 is growing in safe 
      numbers.  I hope to join the ranks of the RV 10  builders when we complete our
      move 
      back to IL later this spring.  I was all  set to buy a kit after Thanksgiving 
      when a business thing happened and  refocusing our family back to IL from 
      PA...I decided not to buy as it would mean  one more thing to move!
      
      Who know, maybe I'll miss my AC's and re-subscribe at SnF or KOSH but at a  
      lower rate than the snail mail subscription rate.
      
      AC rant off...I still like the product and would recommend it to you all,  
      highly.
      
      Patrick
      PA 28-235/J 5A (rebuilding)
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Cold Air Induction
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      Mike do you want to amend the below answer regarding Oregon Aero seats?
      
      
      John Cox 
      #40600 
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
      (Michael Sausen)
      Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:21 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cold Air Induction
      
      
        Yes, they will credit you for anything you want to delete from the
      kits including the cowl.  They do tell you if you order the cowl after
      the fact expect the price to be a great deal higher.  Makes sense as it
      keeps them from having to deal with people that change their minds after
      it shipped.  As I said earlier, it's about an $800 difference.
      
      
        You can get in touch with Will at www.jamesaircraft.com. 
      
      
      Michael
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      Hello builders,
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know I
      would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much a Barett
      engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and finally
      hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems like
      one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into
      small parts..to be completed individually. 
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      
Hello builders,
      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know
      I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much
      a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and
      finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems
      like one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down
      into small parts..to be completed individually. 
      
A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      
#40666
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>
      
                  I've looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim's site that Vic did 
      and I was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was 
      wanting to know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the 
      tab as well as if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  
      I'm trying to figure out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my 
      RV-10.  I was thinking of cutting the tab into the rudder like the 
      elevator tab.  I would have to create a spar for the tab and the ruder 
      and possible even be able to have the control linkage comes thru the 
      spar as to not be seen from the outside.
      
                  Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what 
      length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr 
      trim?
      
      
      Thank You
      Ray Doerr
      CDNI Principal Engineer
      Sprint PCS
      16020 West 113th Street
      Lenexa, KS 66219
      Mailstop KSLNXK0101
      (913) 859-1414 (Office)
      (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
      (913) 859-1234 (Fax)
      Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
        Extras can get you in trouble in a hurry and I can relate to the
      uncertainty on if you can build this monster.  I never really questioned
      on if I had the skills, more if I had the patience to hammer all these
      rivets.  When I learned that Van came out with a model that fit my
      mission profile better than anything else out there, you do have a
      mission profile you are making your decisions right, my next concern was
      if I would go nuts like John J banging away on rivet after rivet.
      Believe me I never had a remote urge to build an aluminum aircraft, I
      was a fast glass man.  So I flew to Denver, took a Sportair RV Assembly
      class, and did a little skiing.  I ordered my tail kit the next week and
      never looked back.
      
      
        You already have the tail kit so you made the tough choice.  Every
      first timer can see the difference in their skills as they work through
      the chapters of the tail kit.  My suggestion is to talk to vendors like
      Barrett, Stein, and others.  They are extremely knowledgeable and will
      not point you in the wrong direction to make a buck.   If you are
      uncomfortable with your skills talk to other builders in your area, I
      doubt any one of us would turn down a visit or free help.  I can't
      recommend the Sportair workshops enough.  If nothing else they give you
      practice on something other than your kit.  And most importantly, do not
      be afraid to ask a question.  I've asked a few that I slapped myself on
      the forehead over after people responded.  As the old saying goes, there
      are no dumb questions, just dumb people.  Wait, that doesn't sound
      right.  J
      
      
      Now back to work!
      
      
      Michael Sausen
      
      -10 #352 Limbo
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:27 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
      Hello builders,
      
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I
      know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering
      how much a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction
      system added..and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to
      build this. It almost seems like one needs apriori knowlege..but at
      least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed
      individually. 
      
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our
      Grumman Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      
      #40666
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com>
      
      Hi Brian,
      
      
      All airplanes are a collection of compromises. Yes even the 10 (this can
      be seen by some of the recent more lively discussions.)   Figure out
      what your "mission" is for the airplane and build accordingly. If
      something isn't important to you don't spend the money on it. Beware of
      the "for only a few dollars more game". You've seen this it's the guy
      who wants to buy a Cessna but for only a few dollars more he could get a
      Tiger, but for only a few dollars more he could get a Mooney and then an
      old Bonanza. He buys the Bonanza instead of the Cessna. And then says
      "crud" why can't I afford this thing? Go back to the original mission
      statement!
      
      
      As far as knowledge it will come. This is a great list too ask
      questions. There are several builders course to gain hands on
      experience. Your local EAA chapter is a good place to look. Most likely
      it has several RV builders and even if they aren't building 10s riveting
      is riveting. 
      
      
      Great idea on building one project at a time. As the old saying goes:
      How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time!
      
      
      Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:27 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
      Hello builders,
      
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I
      know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering
      how much a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction
      system added..and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to
      build this. It almost seems like one needs apriori knowlege..but at
      least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed
      individually. 
      
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our
      Grumman Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      
      #40666
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com>
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      Ray,
      Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis'
       site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide 
      and 5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to
       put in it.
      Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at c
      ruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I kn
      ow lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their tr
      im tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is pa
      inted.
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
      http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24
      
      
Ray,
      
Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Dav
      is' site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2
       " wide and 5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how
       much bend to put in it.
      
Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed a
      t cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requir
      ements also.  I know lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim
       tape to mount their trim tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when don
      e AFTER the plane is painted.
      
Dean 40449
      

______________________
      __________________________________________________

      Interested in getting caught up on today's
       news?

      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.

      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>
      
                  Thanks guys.  I was thinking of a tab cut into the rudder 
      maybe 6" long centered just above the tail light and below the next 
      stiffener where the rudder would still have the bottom rib.  I would 
      re-enforce the rudder by adding tiny triangle ribs and a spar to support 
      the hinge.  My first concern is to ensure I don't reduce the strength of 
      the rudder from top to bottom.
      
                  You brought up a good point about wheel pants, since I still 
      don't have mine on.  So I was thinking the 6" long tab would be maybe 
      1.5" to 2" deep to have enough throw for any condition and not be too 
      sensitive.  I would ensure that it would swing in the direction that is 
      mostly needed and use the same bent forward lip that goes under the spar 
      like on the elevator trim tab.
      
      
      Thank You
      Ray Doerr
      40250
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 
      ddddsp1(at)juno.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:27 AM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Ray,
      
      Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis' 
      site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide 
      and 5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to 
      put in it.
      
      Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at 
      cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I 
      know lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their 
      trim tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is 
      painted.
      
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. 
      <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
      ront.htm?csp=24> 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: construction dilemmas
      
      My suggestion:
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane?  
          figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take as long as 
      you need to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage until 
      you hit that last stage than go 10X for that.
      
      I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
          Take your time reviewing options, there are many companies out there 
      ready to take 45K for a neat engine. I know by the time I'm ready one of 
      those companies will have a FADEC type system for the IO540. I want it 
      and it may be worth the extra, but I have time before needing to worry 
      about this.
      
      and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
          Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now that is 
      great! and Yes you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out 
      if your compatible in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or 
      other class together. That weekend will do a few things for you two 1) 
      Prove you CAN do it 2) Prove that you work great/awful together. 
      
      but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be 
      completed individually. 
           For now plan the budget in 2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase each 
      year of building) Tools, workspace prep, kit, engine estimate, avionics, 
      etc.. Than focus on Stage 1 only. I have important feedback for each 
      stage from this forum but I worry not about the Panel layout, the 
      Supercharger- twin turbo ice air induction with a holy moly cow what it 
      that under the hood engine. It simply would be way too overwhelming to 
      do otherwise.
          Small parts- focus on what is ahead of you right now- tools, 
      workspace, taking a class, ordering Empennage. Than build and learn that 
      phase only.
      
      You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
      Pascal
      
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
        To: martrionics 
        Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
        Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
        Hello builders,
        Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? 
      I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy 
      Cowl...wondering how much a Barett engine would cost with just the cold 
      air induction system added..and finally hoping that my wife and I will 
      be able to build this. It almost seems like one needs apriori 
      knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into small 
      parts..to be completed individually. 
        A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our 
      Grumman Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
        Brian and Ruth Preston
        #40666
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      
      Tom,
         I would guess that the easiest way to compensate for the rod's weight 
      would be to have an equal length of it aft of the hinge line.  That would 
      cancel out the moment arm of the rod extending forward of the hinge line. 
      Stopping by for a chat with my friendly IA this afternoon, will try to clear 
      up some questions I have and report back...
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: HID landing light review..and info concerning Aviation
      Consumer.
      
      
      Yeah Patrick, you can't trust them crazy Mooney drivers. They are
      Mooneys after all. 8^)
      It is the same rag that noted that Mooneys suffer a higher than
      average *percentage* of all Mooney accidents due to engine failure.
      They refused to acknowledge the key point was that it was a percent
      relative to other causes of Mooney accidents, and Mooneys don't seem
      to have some other causes that other brands do. They wanted to imply
      it meant that Mooneys had more engine failures than other brands,
      which AFAIK simply is not true. This was after their own 201 suffered
      a flameout on takeoff, cause never determined that resulted in a total
      because it landed in a salt water marsh and wasn't retrieved for a few
      days. All kind of funny, since after some time, they wound up buying a
      231 to replace it.
      
      On 1/24/07, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com  wrote:
      >
      > I began my subscriptions and renewals via mail, their renewals at SnF and
      > KOSH were greatly lower than the mail route.  This sort of cheese's me off
      > and Paul B, the editor, wrote an article some time ago about how dangerous
      > home-built's were vs production aircraft that also cheesed my off.
      >
      > Understanding his point of view, after all he's a Mooney driver, I wrote a
      > counter article comparing the two top products in each area using NTSB data.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Follow-up on Service Letter
      
      
      I had no idea that my post on this subject would kick off such a 
      firestorm of opinion. But I would like to let everybody know that my 
      off-line dealings w/ Van's on this topic have been Professional and 
      Courteous and included an _extra measure_ of Customer Service. I believe 
      that Scott' s objective was to better understand the source of the 
      engine mount interference issue, so that they could determine how and 
      whether they needed to respond. _How_ and _whether_ they respond are 
      clearly their decisions to make. I also believe that I was responsible 
      for mislabeling this as a Service Bulletin, when in actuality it was a 
      Service Letter, per Scott @ Van's Service Letters are 'informational' 
      and are not intended to imply any immediate safety concern. Scott 
      indicated to me off-line that they were rewording the Service Letter to 
      more accurately represent Barretts engines and services. That's a good 
      thing! and further serves to illustrate their willingness to 'do the 
      right thing'.
      Me? I'm just tickled pink to live in a land that allows me to build and 
      fly airplanes that I build to meet my own peculiar wants and needs. And 
      I'm tickled silly that I've got a partner in Van's that makes this 
      possible by taking 49% of the work and 95% of the engineering off my plate!
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      
      Ray,
      
      My rudder trim is exactly as you discribe.
      It uses a Ray Allen servo inside the rudder.
      I'll take pictues tonight.
      
      Eric Parlow
      40014
      N104EP
      
      ----Original Message Follows----
      From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:50:56 -0600
      
                   Thanks guys.  I was thinking of a tab cut into the rudder maybe 
      6" long centered just above the tail light and below the next stiffener 
      where the rudder would still have the bottom rib.  I would re-enforce the 
      rudder by adding tiny triangle ribs and a spar to support the hinge.  My 
      first concern is to ensure I don't reduce the strength of the rudder from 
      top to bottom.
      
                   You brought up a good point about wheel pants, since I still 
      don't have mine on.  So I was thinking the 6" long tab would be maybe 1.5" 
      to 2" deep to have enough throw for any condition and not be too sensitive.  
      I would ensure that it would swing in the direction that is mostly needed 
      and use the same bent forward lip that goes under the spar like on the 
      elevator trim tab.
      
      
      Thank You
      Ray Doerr
      40250
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:27 AM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Ray,
      
      Jim and Debbie in TX have a trim tab taped on and I believe Deems Davis' 
      site has pics of it.  If I remember from OSH it was about 1 1/2 " wide and 
      5-6" tall.  I am sure they did a trial and error on how much bend to put in 
      it.
      
      Do you find a real need for an adjustable trim or is it just needed at 
      cruise?   Adding Wheel pants MAY change the trim requirements also.  I know 
      lots of RV7 guys use 3M double sided auto trim tape to mount their trim 
      tabs. Nice clean fit that sticks even when done AFTER the plane is painted.
      
      Dean 40449
      
      
      ________________________________________________________________________
      Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
      Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. 
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Follow-up on Service Letter
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"Rhonda Bewley" <Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com>
      
      
      Deems:
      
      I just received word from Van's that they are in the process of
      rewording the letter along the lines that the issue affects Lycoming
      IO-540 engines modified with cold air induction. I concur that Van's has
      been very responsive and helpful in clarifying their statement.
      
      Rhonda
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:10 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Follow-up on Service Letter
      
      
      I had no idea that my post on this subject would kick off such a 
      firestorm of opinion. But I would like to let everybody know that my 
      off-line dealings w/ Van's on this topic have been Professional and 
      Courteous and included an _extra measure_ of Customer Service. I believe
      
      that Scott' s objective was to better understand the source of the 
      engine mount interference issue, so that they could determine how and 
      whether they needed to respond. _How_ and _whether_ they respond are 
      clearly their decisions to make. I also believe that I was responsible 
      for mislabeling this as a Service Bulletin, when in actuality it was a 
      Service Letter, per Scott @ Van's Service Letters are 'informational' 
      and are not intended to imply any immediate safety concern. Scott 
      indicated to me off-line that they were rewording the Service Letter to 
      more accurately represent Barretts engines and services. That's a good 
      thing! and further serves to illustrate their willingness to 'do the 
      right thing'.
      Me? I'm just tickled pink to live in a land that allows me to build and 
      fly airplanes that I build to meet my own peculiar wants and needs. And 
      I'm tickled silly that I've got a partner in Van's that makes this 
      possible by taking 49% of the work and 95% of the engineering off my
      plate!
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com>
Subject: 
Control surface balancing
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      
      All,
           I had my informal chat with my local  IA today and got the skinny on 
      how control surfaces are balanced.  Hope this is helpfull.  Control surfaces 
      are balanced off the airplane on a fixture that can be as simple as a couple 
      of nails in a table underneath the hinge points.  If done on the airplane 
      ( my preference ), it should be done free of the rest of the control system. 
      The hinge axis should be level.  For our elevators with the trailing edges 
      low, the torque value ( 37.5 in/lbs ) applied forward of the hinge line 
      should bring the elevators to the trailing edge level position. This force 
      can be applied with a rod of some sort extending forward and aft of the 
      hinge line 37.5" with a 1 lb weight attached. By extending fore and aft the 
      same distance you negate the moment arm of the rod.  Similarly for the 
      rudder ( which would be laid on its side ) and ailerons.  Adding or 
      subtracting weight in the rudder or elevators wouldn't be too hard but I 
      don't know how you would adjust the aileron countrweight.
           As an aside, Van's sent me the wrong counterweights for the elevators 
      when I got my tail kit.  I talked to them about it and was told to cut down 
      what I had and drill new holes and it would be fine.  They seemed to think 
      that it was preferrable to shipping lead across the country.  Instead I had 
      them ship me new ones.  Somewhere in my memory I recall being told that 
      the -10 had been flown without any counterweights and didn't experience 
      flutter.  Please don't take that as gospel.
            I don't know what effect the trim system would have other than 
      requiring more weight to offset the trim.  As usual this information is for 
      entertainment purposes only and no warranty of usefullness applies.  Always 
      check with tech support before proceding. The preceding has not been checked 
      for correctness by the FAA, CAA, NCAA, NRA,TAA or any other A's out there. 
      Your milage may vary, void where prohibited by law or common sense.......
      
      John Hasbrouck
      #40264
      Trying to fulfill the educational part of this adventure! 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Dsyvert(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      By copying the photos of Vic's plane I measured the hinge in Excel and came  
      up with what I think the dimensions are. My measurements are 1.5" wide by 11" 
      
      long. The hinge knuckles are 0.5 inches long or 1" of the pitch. The full 
      open  width is 1.5" I am installing the electric trim on my rudder, but have not
      
      closed it out yet. I have the same question as to the length. I am 
      considering  making it just a little longer, maybe ~16" so I'd have more movement
      of the 
      ball  to achieve more like 1 ball width. Nothing really scientific. 
      
      Dave Syvertson
      Empennage
      40625
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rob Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      There's a guy building a -7 a couple of T-hangars down from me, and the
      stock 7 uses a spring bias system to introduce unequal aileron displacement
      to "trim" the airplane in roll.  Do you think that engineering a spring bias
      system coupled to the rudder cables themselves for yaw "trim" would help
      instead of developing a separate but interconnected system?
      
      
      Rob Wright
      
      #392
      
      Fuse
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
      [NTK]
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
                  I've looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim's site that Vic did and I
      was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was wanting to
      know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the tab as well as
      if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  I'm trying to figure
      out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my RV-10.  I was thinking of
      cutting the tab into the rudder like the elevator tab.  I would have to
      create a spar for the tab and the ruder and possible even be able to have
      the control linkage comes thru the spar as to not be seen from the outside.
      
                  Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what
      length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?
      
      
      Thank You
      Ray Doerr
      CDNI Principal Engineer
      Sprint PCS
      16020 West 113th Street
      Lenexa, KS 66219
      Mailstop KSLNXK0101
      (913) 859-1414 (Office)
      (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
      (913) 859-1234 (Fax)
      Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
FW: [JamesAircraft] First RV-10 to fly in Canada takes off
      in Charlottetown
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
      
      Repost from the James Aircraft list.  Some new, some not........
      
      
      From: JamesAircraft(at)yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:JamesAircraft(at)yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lizzyjames4_7
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:30 PM
      Subject: [JamesAircraft] First RV-10 to fly in Canada takes off in
      Charlottetown
      
      
      Cool News! Pictures posted
      
      --------------------------------------
      
      Hi Will.
      I will get you some stats after I get used to this hot rod,I only have
      3 hours on it so far and it is a beauty. I want to thank you folks at
      James Aircraft you were a pleasure to work with. We were climbing at
      2200 feet per minute with full fuel and two adults over 400 total crew
      weight. It is very fast compared to my Cherokee pa 140. You can use
      any info you want for your web page or for any thing you want use it
      for.
      Cheers
      David Corrigan
      --------------------------------------
      
      Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:41 PM
      Subject: Article for COPA magazine
      
      First RV-10 to fly in Canada takes off in Charlottetown
      
      By
      Barry Martin
      
      The first Vans RV-10 to fly in Canada took to the air on January 18,
      2007 from the Charlottetown Airport on PEI. After approximately 16
      months of building and, much to the delight of Owner and Builder David
      Corrigan and co-builder Deryck Hickox, the RV-10 lifted off around
      noon in clear skies and light winds, although the temperature was a
      little cool, being around minus 5 degrees C. With the IO-540 purring
      like a kitten, the RV-10 was through circuit height before reaching
      the end of the runway.
      
      Test pilot Glen McLarty took the RV to 4000 feet over the airport to
      do the initial tests then headed north of the airport to finish the
      first round of tests. In communication with the ground crew, Glen
      relayed that the plane flew straight and level even with his hands off
      the stick.
      
      The RV-10 is equipped with a Lycoming IO-540 that was rebuilt by
      Aerotec in Halifax and has a MT 3 blade propeller up front. The
      instrument panel is well equipped with an AF-2500 engine monitor,
      Garmin 430, Garmin SL-30, PS Engineering Audio Panel, Garmin GTX 327
      Transponder, ATD-300 Traffic Watch and a TruTrak Autopilot. As all the
      instruments are electrically run, there is also a back-up battery.
      
      This is the first homebuilt project for Dave, locally known as "The
      Flying Real Estate Agent", but Deryck has over 30 years experience
      building and restoring aircraft, much of it with the Canadian Warplane
      Heritage in Hamilton. Deryck, originally from PEI, moved back after
      retiring from Air Canada where he worked as an AME. Since starting the
      project, Deryck has formed D. Hickox Aviation Services specializing in
      aircraft restoration, fabric covering and home built aircraft. He can
      be contacted at 902-894-4522 if you have a project you would like him
      to build or restore.
      
      __._,_.___ 
      
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      My Q2 had a spring bias system for pitch trim and so I have thought about
      this idea a few times but previously decided it wouldn't work.  My concerns
      were that it's not really a closed system since the rudder pedals are not
      connected on the firewall side.  However, it occurred to me that since we
      really only need to be able to put pressure pulling forward on the right
      rudder cable you probably could add a spring controlled by a lever on just
      that cable.
      
      
      One question for the group - I only needed a little rudder tab initially but
      after installing the wheel pants it's significantly greater.  My plan is to
      eyeball and also re-measure the strut cover alignments, but any suggestions
      on tweaks that would help?  I need more right rudder than before so I'm
      guessing the left side is dragging a little and not aligned with the
      relative wind as well as the right.
      
      
      Marcus
      
      40286 
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wright
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:44 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      There's a guy building a -7 a couple of T-hangars down from me, and the
      stock 7 uses a spring bias system to introduce unequal aileron displacement
      to "trim" the airplane in roll.  Do you think that engineering a spring bias
      system coupled to the rudder cables themselves for yaw "trim" would help
      instead of developing a separate but interconnected system?
      
      
      Rob Wright
      
      #392
      
      Fuse
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
      [NTK]
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
                  I've looked at the Rudder Trim on Tim's site that Vic did and I
      was wondering about doing a Rudder Trim on mine as well.  I was wanting to
      know the length and width of the hinge that is providing the tab as well as
      if it is effective enough or too sensitive to adjust.  I'm trying to figure
      out what size of a Rudder Trim Tab to make on my RV-10.  I was thinking of
      cutting the tab into the rudder like the elevator tab.  I would have to
      create a spar for the tab and the ruder and possible even be able to have
      the control linkage comes thru the spar as to not be seen from the outside.
      
                  Also for those flying with a glued/taped on Rudder Tab, what
      length/width and thinkness did you apply to the rudder to coorect thr trim?
      
      
      Thank You
      Ray Doerr
      CDNI Principal Engineer
      Sprint PCS
      16020 West 113th Street
      Lenexa, KS 66219
      Mailstop KSLNXK0101
      (913) 859-1414 (Office)
      (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
      (913) 859-1234 (Fax)
      Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Follow-up on Service Letter
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
From: 
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
      
      
      That is great for Barrett's fine engines.  Now how does that affect
      Aerosport and the issue that Tim posted so long ago with his stock
      Lycoming IO-540?
      
      I commend the amended language.  Just wondering about the basis.
      
      John Cox
      #40600
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rhonda Bewley
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:39 PM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Follow-up on Service Letter
      
      
      Deems:
      
      I just received word from Van's that they are in the process of
      rewording the letter along the lines that the issue affects Lycoming
      IO-540 engines modified with cold air induction. I concur that Van's has
      been very responsive and helpful in clarifying their statement.
      
      Rhonda
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:10 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Follow-up on Service Letter
      
      
      I had no idea that my post on this subject would kick off such a 
      firestorm of opinion. But I would like to let everybody know that my 
      off-line dealings w/ Van's on this topic have been Professional and 
      Courteous and included an _extra measure_ of Customer Service. I believe
      
      that Scott' s objective was to better understand the source of the 
      engine mount interference issue, so that they could determine how and 
      whether they needed to respond. _How_ and _whether_ they respond are 
      clearly their decisions to make. I also believe that I was responsible 
      for mislabeling this as a Service Bulletin, when in actuality it was a 
      Service Letter, per Scott @ Van's Service Letters are 'informational' 
      and are not intended to imply any immediate safety concern. Scott 
      indicated to me off-line that they were rewording the Service Letter to 
      more accurately represent Barretts engines and services. That's a good 
      thing! and further serves to illustrate their willingness to 'do the 
      right thing'.
      Me? I'm just tickled pink to live in a land that allows me to build and 
      fly airplanes that I build to meet my own peculiar wants and needs. And 
      I'm tickled silly that I've got a partner in Van's that makes this 
      possible by taking 49% of the work and 95% of the engineering off my
      plate!
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net>
Subject: 
Re: front wheel
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      The torque values are on the wheels.  I believe it is 90in-lbs.
      Anh
      N591VU-11hrs
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Rob Wright 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 6:58 PM
        Subject: RV10-List: front wheel
      
      
        Anybody seen torque values for the front wheel halves?  It's an AN4 bolt,
       so 50-70 plus drag should be correct.  Just wondering if there are other g
      uidelines.
      
         
      
        Rob Wright
      
        #392
      
        Fuse & gear, waiting for interior paint to arrive.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"DejaVu" <wvu(at)ameritel.net>
Subject: 
RE:
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      Chris,
      You're welcome!  You have lots of experience working with aluminum already,
       but let me know if I can help in any way once you start your project. 
      Anh
      N591VU-11hrs
      
            Subject:      RE: 
            From:      CHRISTOPHER HARRIS (cbpip(at)verizon.net) 
            Date:      Wed Jan 24 - 6:31 AM 
      
      I just wanted to give quick shout out to Ahn Vu. He invited me to take a lo
      ok at
      his newly flown RV-10 at St.Marys airport the other day. It was a great ple
      asure
      to meet him and see a quality built aircraft. I hope to be joining the list
      of builders in the very near future, and again it was fantastic to see his
      project. Ahn exemplified the kind of person in the "community" that I would
       enjoy
      being associated with. My project will be a standard kit except for the hug
      e
      rubberband up front, this will probably require mount modification to conta
      in
      all the torque, I think I'll extend the tail feathers by a couple of feet t
      o
      compesate with some large wieghts on the tips, or mabe just go with stock.
        Thanks again Ahn, great job.
      
      Tom Deutsch  wrote:
      
      Some folks should simply buy airplanes and not try to build them!
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
Re: construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Hi,
       yes my wife wants to do the building project also. In my case, I am lucky. It
      is she who is the pilot. She flew across the US 8 times in her Grumman Tiger (with
      her ex). We got the airplane but were too busy at that time to use it much.
      So we sold it. Now I want to finish my lessons in the RV10. She is instrument-rated
      so I will have a wonderful flying companion as well as a building companion.
      
      Brian and Ruth
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> 
      
      My suggestion:
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane?  
          figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take as long as you need
      to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage until you hit that last
      stage than go 10X for that.
      
      I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
          Take your time reviewing options, there are many companies out there ready
      to take 45K for a neat engine. I know by the time I'm ready one of those companies
      will have a FADEC type system for the IO540. I want it and it may be worth
      the extra, but I have time before needing to worry about this.
      
      and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
          Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now that is great! and Yes
      you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out if your compatible
      in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or other class together. That
      weekend will do a few things for you two 1) Prove you CAN do it 2) Prove that
      you work great/awful together. 
      
      but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed individually.
      
           For now plan the budget in 2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase each year of
      building) Tools, workspace prep, kit, engine estimate, avionics, etc.. Than focus
      on Stage 1 only. I have important feedback for each stage from this forum
      but I worry not about the Panel layout, the Supercharger- twin turbo ice air
      induction with a holy moly cow what it that under the hood engine. It simply would
      be way too overwhelming to do otherwise.
          Small parts- focus on what is ahead of you right now- tools, workspace, taking
      a class, ordering Empennage. Than build and learn that phase only.
      
      You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
      Pascal
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
      Hello builders,
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know I
      would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much a Barett
      engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and finally
      hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems like
      one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into
      small parts..to be completed individually. 
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      
      
Hi,
      
 yes my wife wants to do the building project also. In my case, I am
      lucky. It is she who is the pilot. She flew across the US 8 times in her Grumman
      Tiger (with her ex). We got the airplane but were too busy at that time to
      use it much. So we sold it. Now I want to finish my lessons in the RV10.
      She is instrument-rated so I will have a wonderful flying companion as well as
      a building companion. 
      
Brian and Ruth
      
 
      

      
      
      
      
My suggestion:
      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? 
      
      
    figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take
      as long as you need to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage
      until you hit that last stage than go 10X for that.
      
 
      
I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
      
    Take your time reviewing options,
      there are many companies out there ready to take 45K for a neat engine. I know
      by the time I'm ready one of those companies will have a FADEC type system
      for the IO540. I want it and it may be worth the extra, but I have time before
      needing to worry about this.
      
 
      
and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
      
    Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now
      that is great! and Yes you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out
      if your compatible in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or other
      class together. That weekend will do a few things for you two 1) Prove you CAN
      do it 2) Prove that you work great/awful together. 
      
 
      
but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed
      individually. 
      
     For now plan the budget in
      2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase each year of building) Tools, workspace prep,
      kit, engine estimate, avionics, etc.. Than focus on Stage 1 only. I have
      important feedback for each stage from this forum but I worry not about the Panel
      layout, the Supercharger- twin turbo ice air induction with a holy moly cow
      what it that under the hood engine. It simply would be way too overwhelming
      to do otherwise.
      
    Small parts- focus on what is ahead
      of you right now- tools, workspace, taking a class, ordering Empennage. Than
      build and learn that phase only.
      
 
      
You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
 
      
Pascal
      
 
      

      
----- Original Message ----- 
      
From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      
To: martrionics 
      
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
      
Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      


      
Hello builders,
      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know
      I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much
      a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and
      finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems
      like one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down
      into small parts..to be completed individually. 
      
A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      
#40666

      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      

      
      
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Hello Vern,
      Thank you for the encouragement. We took a class and built the empennage allready
      anyway. I guess one really needs to assess thier mission about why they want
      a plane like this. We want to fly all over the country, so I think this plane
      would be a good choice! .I will be a regular in matrionics..we are trying to
      get finances ready for the rest of the kit now. Hope to get going again soon
      on it. Thanks again, and for all the nice comments made by others.
      Brian and Ruth
      #40666
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com> 
      
      Hi Brian,
      
      All airplanes are a collection of compromises. Yes even the 10 (this can be seen
      by some of the recent more lively discussions.)   Figure out what your mission
      is for the airplane and build accordingly. If something isnt important to you
      dont spend the money on it. Beware of the for only a few dollars more game.
      Youve seen this its the guy who wants to buy a Cessna but for only a few dollars
      more he could get a Tiger, but for only a few dollars more he could get a
      Mooney and then an old Bonanza. He buys the Bonanza instead of the Cessna. And
      then says crud why cant I afford this thing? Go back to the original mission
      statement!
      
      As far as knowledge it will come. This is a great list too ask questions. There
      are several builders course to gain hands on experience. Your local EAA chapter
      is a good place to look. Most likely it has several RV builders and even if
      they arent building 10s riveting is riveting. 
      
      Great idea on building one project at a time. As the old saying goes: How do you
      eat an elephant? One bit at a time!
      
      Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:27 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      Hello builders,
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know I
      would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much a Barett
      engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and finally
      hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems like
      one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into
      small parts..to be completed individually. 
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      
      
      
Hello Vern,
      
Thank you for the encouragement. We took a class and built the empennage allready
      anyway. I guess one really needs to assess thier mission about why they
      want a plane like this. We want to fly all over the country, so I think this
      plane would be a good choice! .I will be a regular in matrionics..we are trying
      to get finances ready for the rest of the kit now. Hope to get going again
      soon on it. Thanks again, and for all the nice comments made by others.
      
Brian and Ruth
      
#40666
      
 
      

      
      
      
      
      
      

      
Hi Brian,
      
 
      
All airplanes are a collection of compromises.
      Yes even the 10 (this can be seen by some of the recent more lively discussions.)
        Figure out what your mission is for the airplane and build
      accordingly. If something isnt important to you dont spend the money on it.
      Beware of the for only a few dollars more game. Youve seen this its the guy
      who wants to buy a Cessna but for only a few dollars more he could get a Tiger,
      but for only a few dollars more he could get a Mooney and then an old Bonanza.
      He buys the Bonanza instead of the Cessna. And then says crud why cant I afford
      this thing? Go back to the original mission statement!
      
 
      
As far as knowledge it will come. This is
      a great list too ask questions. There are several builders course to gain hands
      on experience. Your local EAA chapter is a good place to look. Most likely
      it has several RV builders and even if they arent building 10s riveting is riveting.
      
      
 
      
Great idea on building one project at a
      time. As the old saying goes: How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time!
      
 
      
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
      
 
      

      

      

      
      
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:27 AM
To: martrionics
Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
 
      

      
Hello builders,
      

      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I
      know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much
      a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and
      finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems
      like one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down
      into small parts..to be completed individually. 
      

      
A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      

      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      

      
#40666
 
 
 

      
      
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Hello Mike!
       Thank you for your encouragement also! It turns out we spent some money and went
      to a class..finished the empennage and learned some valuable skills. I also
      called Barretts and they sound really great if we ca ncome up with the extra
      for a cold air induction system..it seems like the best way to go. Thanks for
      your input. No w we are gettig our finances together for the rest of the kit..thanks
      again.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> 
      
        Extras can get you in trouble in a hurry and I can relate to the uncertainty
      on if you can build this monster.  I never really questioned on if I had the skills,
      more if I had the patience to hammer all these rivets.  When I learned
      that Van came out with a model that fit my mission profile better than anything
      else out there, you do have a mission profile you are making your decisions
      right, my next concern was if I would go nuts like John J banging away on rivet
      after rivet.  Believe me I never had a remote urge to build an aluminum aircraft,
      I was a fast glass man.  So I flew to Denver, took a Sportair RV Assembly
      class, and did a little skiing.  I ordered my tail kit the next week and never
      looked back.
      
        You already have the tail kit so you made the tough choice.  Every first timer
      can see the difference in their skills as they work through the chapters of
      the tail kit.  My suggestion is to talk to vendors like Barrett, Stein, and others.
      They are extremely knowledgeable and will not point you in the wrong direction
      to make a buck.   If you are uncomfortable with your skills talk to other
      builders in your area, I doubt any one of us would turn down a visit or free
      help.  I cant recommend the Sportair workshops enough.  If nothing else they
      give you practice on something other than your kit.  And most importantly, do
      not be afraid to ask a question.  Ive asked a few that I slapped myself on the
      forehead over after people responded.  As the old saying goes, there are no
      dumb questions, just dumb people.  Wait, that doesnt sound right.  J
      
      Now back to work!
      
      Michael Sausen
      -10 #352 Limbo
      
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:27 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      Hello builders,
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know I
      would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much a Barett
      engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and finally
      hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems like
      one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into
      small parts..to be completed individually. 
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      
      
      http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      
      
Hello Mike!
      
 Thank you for your encouragement also! It turns out we spent some money
      and went to a class..finished the empennage and learned some valuable skills.
      I also called Barretts and they sound really great if we ca ncome up with
      the extra for a cold air induction system..it seems like the best way to go. Thanks
      for your input. No w we are gettig our finances together for the rest of
      the kit..thanks again.
      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      
#40666
      
 
      

      
      
      
      

      
 
      Extras can get you in trouble in a hurry and I can
      relate to the uncertainty on if you can build this monster.  I never really
      questioned on if I had the skills, more if I had the patience to hammer
      all these rivets.  When I learned that Van came out with a model that fit
      my mission profile better than anything else out there, you do have a mission
      profile you are making your decisions right, my next concern was if I would go
      nuts like John J banging away on rivet after rivet.  Believe me I never
      had a remote urge to build an aluminum aircraft, I was a fast glass man. 
      So I flew to Denver, took a Sportair RV Assembly class, and did a little skiing. 
      I ordered my tail kit the next week and never looked back.
      
 
      
 
      You already have the tail kit so you made the tough
      choice.  Every first timer can see the difference in their skills as
      they work through the chapters of the tail kit.  My suggestion is to talk
      to vendors like Barrett, Stein, and others.  They are extremely knowledgeable
      and will not point you in the wrong direction to make a buck.  
      If you are uncomfortable with your skills talk to other builders in your area,
      I doubt any one of us would turn down a visit or free help.  I cant recommend
      the Sportair workshops enough.  If nothing else they give you practice
      on something other than your kit.  And most importantly, do not be
      afraid to ask a question.  Ive asked a few that I slapped myself on the forehead
      over after people responded.  As the old saying goes, there are no
      dumb questions, just dumb people.  Wait, tha
       t does
      nt sound right.  J
      
 
      
Now
      back to work!
      
 
      
Michael
      Sausen
      
-10
      #352 Limbo
      
 
      
 
      

      

      
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:27 AM
To: martrionics
Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
 
      

      
Hello builders,
      

      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful
      airplane? I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering
      how much a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction system
      added..and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this.
      It almost seems like one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the
      project down into small parts..to be completed individually. 
      

      
A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer
      than our Grumman Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      

      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      

      
#40666
 
 
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
 

      
      
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim (pictures)
Date: 
Jan 24, 2007
      
      Pictures of rudder trim tab
      
      Eric Parlow
      40014
      N104EP
      Fiberglass
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      
      This is my version of the electric rudder trim tab. I extended a shaft into
      the lower fiberglass cover and mounted a pwm servo. No external pushrods!
      The control will be a simple potentiometer. A small knob on the dash. 
      
      
      http://www.iflyrv10.com/iflyrv10/Cool_mods_and_ideas/IMAG004A.JPG
      
      steve
      40205
      
      
      -- 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Paul Grimstad" <bldgrv10450(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      
      Steve
      
      Nice job. I am interested in your trim system. Will you package a kit and 
      offer it in some way?
      Could this be installed in a completed rudder with reasonable effort?
      Do you think the elevator or fuselage turbulence will affect trim authority 
      in this location?
      Will you install the fiberglass cap with screws?
      
      Paul Grimstad
      RV10 40450
      Portland, OR 97219
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:30 PM
      Subject: !RE: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      >
      > This is my version of the electric rudder trim tab. I extended a shaft 
      > into
      > the lower fiberglass cover and mounted a pwm servo. No external pushrods!
      > The control will be a simple potentiometer. A small knob on the dash.
      >
      >
      > http://www.iflyrv10.com/iflyrv10/Cool_mods_and_ideas/IMAG004A.JPG
      >
      > steve
      > 40205
      >
      >
      > -- 
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
From: 
"Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: construction dilemmas
      
      Brian;
      The RV-10 is the plane for you and Ruth. You have it made, a wife that 
      is IR and knows all the good places to fly to in the country is a plus. 
      But having a building companion.. priceless!
      Pascal
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
        To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:18 PM
        Subject: Re: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
        Hi,
         yes my wife wants to do the building project also. In my case, I am 
      lucky. It is she who is the pilot. She flew across the US 8 times in her 
      Grumman Tiger (with her ex). We got the airplane but were too busy at 
      that time to use it much. So we sold it. Now I want to finish my lessons 
      in the RV10. She is instrument-rated so I will have a wonderful flying 
      companion as well as a building companion. 
        Brian and Ruth
      
          -------------- Original message -------------- 
          From: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> 
      
          My suggestion:
          Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful 
      airplane?  
              figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take as long 
      as you need to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage 
      until you hit that last stage than go 10X for that.
      
          I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
              Take your time reviewing options, there are many companies out 
      there ready to take 45K for a neat engine. I know by the time I'm ready 
      one of those companies will have a FADEC type system for the IO540. I 
      want it and it may be worth the extra, but I have time before needing to 
      worry about this.
      
          and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
              Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now that is 
      great! and Yes you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out 
      if your compatible in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or 
      other class together. That weekend will do a few things for you two 1) 
      Prove you CAN do it 2) Prove that you work great/awful together. 
      
          but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be 
      completed individually. 
               For now plan the budget in 2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase 
      each year of building) Tools, workspace prep, kit, engine estimate, 
      avionics, etc.. Than focus on Stage 1 only. I have important feedback 
      for each stage from this forum but I worry not about the Panel layout, 
      the Supercharger- twin turbo ice air induction with a holy moly cow what 
      it that under the hood engine. It simply would be way too overwhelming 
      to do otherwise.
              Small parts- focus on what is ahead of you right now- tools, 
      workspace, taking a class, ordering Empennage. Than build and learn that 
      phase only.
      
          You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
          Pascal
      
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
            To: martrionics 
            Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
            Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
            Hello builders,
            Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful 
      airplane? I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy 
      Cowl...wondering how much a Barett engine would cost with just the cold 
      air induction system added..and finally hoping that my wife and I will 
      be able to build this. It almost seems like one needs apriori 
      knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into small 
      parts..to be completed individually. 
            A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than 
      our Grumman Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
            Brian and Ruth Preston
            #40666
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<rvmail(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: 
I guess it is an addiction
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      
      Tim's site has been down, or least the route to it from my ISP hasn't been available
      all morning.
      
      I wanted to review Vic's pictures on the rudder trim mod and am having withdrawal
      symptoms not being able to access the site on demand.
      
      I guess that defines this as an addiction.......
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
From: 
<bgill1(at)charter.net>
Subject: 
Axel extension & firewall questions
      
      
      Had two different questions relative to the RV-10 build:
      
      On the variations of axel extension spacers that folks are looking at  - I assume
      that all of these are aluminum - any body recommend a particular grade? I see
      that ACS has 6061T6 that may fit the bill...I may order a bit to play with
      on my mini- lathe.
      
      Fire wall through hole sealing...I have seen 3M fire putty used as well as Biotherm
      100. Any sources identified? I have looked a bit on the web but most all
      of the suppliers were industrial (full case only sales). ACS carries a  "firewall
      2000 caulk" that appears to be made for attaching firewall blanket and is
      probably a siliconized caulking and Vans now has somthing that looks like proseal
      but is firewall sealant - I believe that the Biotherm may be very similar
      to the siliconized caulk but I have not compared the specification sheets yet.
      I am trying to lay out all of my holes and line up the carry through connectors
      etc. Any other recommendations from those past this point? 
      
      Thanks in advance!
      
      Byron    N253RV assigned
      FFW and Finishing - awaiting panel re-start
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Axel extension & firewall questions
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
From: 
"Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>
      
      
      Goto Lowes aviation department and get fireplace sealer. Works the same
      and is cheaper.
      Dan
      N289DT 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      bgill1(at)charter.net
      Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:57 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Axel extension & firewall questions
      
      
      Had two different questions relative to the RV-10 build:
      
      On the variations of axel extension spacers that folks are looking at  -
      I assume that all of these are aluminum - any body recommend a
      particular grade? I see that ACS has 6061T6 that may fit the bill...I
      may order a bit to play with on my mini- lathe.
      
      Fire wall through hole sealing...I have seen 3M fire putty used as well
      as Biotherm 100. Any sources identified? I have looked a bit on the web
      but most all of the suppliers were industrial (full case only sales).
      ACS carries a  "firewall 2000 caulk" that appears to be made for
      attaching firewall blanket and is probably a siliconized caulking and
      Vans now has somthing that looks like proseal but is firewall sealant -
      I believe that the Biotherm may be very similar to the siliconized caulk
      but I have not compared the specification sheets yet. I am trying to lay
      out all of my holes and line up the carry through connectors etc. Any
      other recommendations from those past this point? 
      
      Thanks in advance!
      
      Byron    N253RV assigned
      FFW and Finishing - awaiting panel re-start
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: 
Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Feb 25, 2007
      
      
      	Yeah, the plan is to eventually develop it to a kit for sale. It'll
      be a while though, as I'm focusing on some other products first. That being
      said, if you want I'll give you all my info and I'll supply the parts list
      if you'd like to have the same setup. Almost like beta testing...
      	The idea is to be able to retrofit complete rudders. Except for the
      removal of the fiberglass lower cover, this will then be reattached with
      screws for service. 
      	I have the tab positioned below the elevator, which seems to be a
      popular tab location from the photos of aircraft I've seen completed. Only
      final testing will show any complications, but I think it'll be just fine.  
      
      
      Steve
      40205
      
      
      Steve
      
      Nice job. I am interested in your trim system. Will you package a kit and 
      offer it in some way?
      Could this be installed in a completed rudder with reasonable effort?
      Do you think the elevator or fuselage turbulence will affect trim authority 
      in this location?
      Will you install the fiberglass cap with screws?
      
      Paul Grimstad
      RV10 40450
      Portland, OR 97219
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:30 PM
      Subject: !RE: RV10-List: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      >
      > This is my version of the electric rudder trim tab. I extended a shaft 
      > into
      > the lower fiberglass cover and mounted a pwm servo. No external pushrods!
      > The control will be a simple potentiometer. A small knob on the dash.
      >
      >
      > http://www.iflyrv10.com/iflyrv10/Cool_mods_and_ideas/IMAG004A.JPG
      >
      > steve
      > 40205
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com>
Subject: 
Audio Panel Deals
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      I just got off the phone with John Stark:  706-321-1008.  He has a few (4?)
      GMA340 audio panels, "overhauled" from Garmin, for $975.  He explained that
      "overhauled" is actually new with a one year warranty instead of two year.
      No prewire required.  I got one, no commission here, just passing on a good
      price.
      
      Dave Saylor
      AirCrafters LLC
      140 Aviation Way
      Watsonville, CA 
      831-722-9141
      831-750-0284 CL
      www.AirCraftersLLC.com
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
RobHickman(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
Subject: 
Duckworks HID landing lights
      
      I have the Duckworks HID lights in both wings of my RV-4.
      
      Last night I was flying home from Arlington, WA at Dusk with flight  
      following.  I got the call "Dash 8 12:00 and 20 miles"  I said  looking, they came
      
      back and said "we have the plane in sight".  I live on  OR40 a  2700' grass and
      
      no lights, only reflectors.  These lights make  it possible to fly in and out 
      at night.  
      
      My RV-10 will have at least two of them...  
      
      
      Rob Hickman
      RV-4 N401RH  RV-10 Wings   
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
From: 
Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Lettering for Panels
      
      I have been wondering how people do lettering in their instument panels.  A
      nyone care to volunteer some info?=0A=0ANiko=0A40188 on Cabin Cover
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Dsyvert(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      Bob,
      
          This is what I did as far as dimensions. See Vic's  photos in an Excel 
      workbook.
      
      Dave Syvertson
      40625
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
cloudvalley(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
Re: construction dilemmas
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      Hello Pascal,
      
      Thanks for those kind words of appreciation!  Most people assume Brian is the pilot
      (sometimes continuing to do so even after Brian has told them otherwise.)
      I needed and used the instrument rating where I used to live in San Diego for
      many years.
      
      You're right, the RV10 is the plane for us.  How exciting it was to fly the demo
      up in Aurora last fall--an hour from our current house.  Actually we were hooked
      when we first saw it at the airshow in Eugene last Sept.  We were thinking
      about a Zodiac CH640 but there was no contest when we saw  the RV10.  I used
      to fly the Tiger for many years but the RV10 will be an exciting upgrade.----Now
      thinking about the Barrett engine with the cold air induction---.  
      
      Thanks again!
      
      Ruth Preston  #40666
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> 
      
      Brian;
      The RV-10 is the plane for you and Ruth. You have it made, a wife that is IR and
      knows all the good places to fly to in the country is a plus. But having a building
      companion.. priceless!
      Pascal
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:18 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
      Hi,
       yes my wife wants to do the building project also. In my case, I am lucky. It
      is she who is the pilot. She flew across the US 8 times in her Grumman Tiger (with
      her ex). We got the airplane but were too busy at that time to use it much.
      So we sold it. Now I want to finish my lessons in the RV10. She is instrument-rated
      so I will have a wonderful flying companion as well as a building companion.
      
      Brian and Ruth
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> 
      
      My suggestion:
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane?  
          figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take as long as you need
      to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage until you hit that last
      stage than go 10X for that.
      
      I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
          Take your time reviewing options, there are many companies out there ready
      to take 45K for a neat engine. I know by the time I'm ready one of those companies
      will have a FADEC type system for the IO540. I want it and it may be worth
      the extra, but I have time before needing to worry about this.
      
      and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
          Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now that is great! and Yes
      you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out if your compatible
      in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or other class together. That
      weekend will do a few things for you two 1) Prove you CAN do it 2) Prove that
      you work great/awful together. 
      
      but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed individually.
      
           For now plan the budget in 2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase each year of
      building) Tools, workspace prep, kit, engine estimate, avionics, etc.. Than focus
      on Stage 1 only. I have important feedback for each stage from this forum
      but I worry not about the Panel layout, the Supercharger- twin turbo ice air
      induction with a holy moly cow what it that under the hood engine. It simply would
      be way too overwhelming to do otherwise.
          Small parts- focus on what is ahead of you right now- tools, workspace, taking
      a class, ordering Empennage. Than build and learn that phase only.
      
      You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
      Pascal
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      
      
      Hello builders,
      Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know I
      would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much a Barett
      engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and finally
      hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems like
      one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down into
      small parts..to be completed individually. 
      A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      Brian and Ruth Preston
      #40666
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      
      
Hello Pascal,
      
 
      
Thanks for those kind words of appreciation!  Most people assume Brian
      is the pilot (sometimes continuing to do so even after Brian has told them otherwise.) 
      I needed and used the instrument rating where I used to live
      in San Diego for many years.
      
 
      
You're right, the RV10 is the plane for us.  How exciting it was to fly
      the demo up in Aurora last fall--an hour from our current house.  Actually
      we were hooked when we first saw it at the airshow in Eugene last Sept. 
      We were thinking about a Zodiac CH640 but there was no contest when we saw 
      the RV10.  I used to fly the Tiger for many years but the RV10
      will be an exciting upgrade.----Now thinking about the Barrett engine with
      the cold air induction---.  
      
 
      
Thanks again!
      
 
      
Ruth Preston  #40666
      
 
      

      
      
Brian;
      
The RV-10 is the plane for you and Ruth. You have
      it made, a wife that is IR and knows all the good places to fly to in the country
      is a plus. But having a building companion.. priceless!
      
Pascal
      

      
----- Original Message ----- 
      
From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 
      
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:18 PM
      
Subject: Re: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      


      
Hi,
      
 yes my wife wants to do the building project also. In my case, I am
      lucky. It is she who is the pilot. She flew across the US 8 times in her Grumman
      Tiger (with her ex). We got the airplane but were too busy at that time to
      use it much. So we sold it. Now I want to finish my lessons in the RV10.
      She is instrument-rated so I will have a wonderful flying companion as well as
      a building companion. 
      
Brian and Ruth
      
 
      

      
      
      
      
My suggestion:
      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? 
      
      
    figure 7K to start for tools, kits setup, etc than take
      as long as you need to build up for the next stage do the same at each stage
      until you hit that last stage than go 10X for that.
      
 
      
I know I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl
      
    Take your time reviewing options,
      there are many companies out there ready to take 45K for a neat engine. I know
      by the time I'm ready one of those companies will have a FADEC type system
      for the IO540. I want it and it may be worth the extra, but I have time before
      needing to worry about this.
      
 
      
and finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this
      
    Sweet! Your wife will work with you to build this? Now
      that is great! and Yes you will be able to. If you do want to seriously find out
      if your compatible in the workspace- take a Sportair or Alexander or other
      class together. That weekend will do a few things for you two 1) Prove you CAN
      do it 2) Prove that you work great/awful together. 
      
 
      
but at least we will break the project down into small parts..to be completed
      individually. 
      
     For now plan the budget in
      2007 dollars (expect 3-4% increase each year of building) Tools, workspace prep,
      kit, engine estimate, avionics, etc.. Than focus on Stage 1 only. I have
      important feedback for each stage from this forum but I worry not about the Panel
      layout, the Supercharger- twin turbo ice air induction with a holy moly cow
      what it that under the hood engine. It simply would be way too overwhelming
      to do otherwise.
      
    Small parts- focus on what is ahead
      of you right now- tools, workspace, taking a class, ordering Empennage. Than
      build and learn that phase only.
      
 
      
You can do this. One rivet at a time!
      
 
      
Pascal
      
 
      

      
----- Original Message ----- 
      
From: cloudvalley(at)comcast.net 
      
To: martrionics 
      
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:26 AM
      
Subject: RV10-List: construction dilemmas
      


      
Hello builders,
      
Now where can one get all the extra $$$$ for this wonderful airplane? I know
      I would like some mods too.. a cold air sump, Holy Cowl...wondering how much
      a Barett engine would cost with just the cold air induction system added..and
      finally hoping that my wife and I will be able to build this. It almost seems
      like one needs apriori knowlege..but at least we will break the project down
      into small parts..to be completed individually. 
      
A worthwhile challenge for sure...and a much better performer than our Grumman
      Tiger we sold 4 year ago.
      
Brian and Ruth Preston
      
#40666

      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      

      
      
      

      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      

      
      
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Dsyvert(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      Bob and others,
      
          The picture for the cover plate should be measured  to the edge of the 
      plate. In the picture I measured to a square I inserted  instead of the cover 
      plate shown. Sorry about the confusion.
      
      Dave Syvertson
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"gary" <speckter(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Some have inquired about Aero-trim here is the info.
      
      Aero-trim is a one man company.  He does not have a website.  I did find
      more info at www.globalav.com.au/productDetails1.asp?supplierID=30 - 45k 
      
      
      The contact info is
      
      Aero-trim
      
      1130 102 ST
      
      Bay Harbor FL 35154
      
      305-864-3336
      
      
        _____  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Dsyvert(at)aol.com
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      Group,
      
          I'm sending this one more time with the attachment.  I wasn't happy with 
      the description and dimensions. Again sorry about that!  Bob, the main thing 
      is to order the access cover and backing plate and lay  it out with the plate 
      in hand before cutting. However, you could make one  yourself. 
      
          Hope this helps. If not let me know. Also, if  anyone has any comments 
      feel free.
      
      Dave Syvertson
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
Subject: 
Re: Lettering for Panels
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Hi Niko,
      
      There are a number of options here, and having not gotten to that  
      stage myself, I can't speak to specific qualitative differences  
      between the options, but here are some thoughts:
      
      You can go to a nameplate company and have engraved plates made to  
      rivet to the panel
      
      You can have the lettering silkscreened directly on to the panel
      
      There are now large format UV ink plotters that can image directly on  
      a wide variety of materials... the kind of thing that would be used  
      to put a company logo on everything from a computer keyboard to a  
      baseball bat.  I've not heard of this being used on a panel yet, but  
      I can imagine that it would do a wonderful job and would have almost  
      no restrictions as to the design you wanted to apply (imagine  
      actually putting a photographic image on the panel in a high  
      resolution... this would do that).  I don't know who has one of these  
      machines, but I do have a vendor who sells them and can easily find a  
      resource if people are interested.
      
      The option I'm going to try (and I'll let you all know how it goes  
      when I get there) involves some equipment I just bought for my  
      business.  I'm a commercial printer and a customer just asked me to  
      gear up to do their banners, trade show displays and car wraps.  So,  
      what I'm now installing is a 60" wide solvent based plotter and a  
      large format plotting diecutter.  With them I plan to image my panel  
      placards on to an adhesive vinyl (I'm looking for one that doesn't  
      kill you when it burns), diecut to the shape of the panel, instrument  
      holes and all (using the same computer file that I'll send to the  
      water jet company to cut the panel) and adhere it to the panel before  
      I set the instruments in.  I also plan to use the equipment for my N  
      numbers and pinstripes.
      
      If I find I can offer this up as an option for other builders without  
      sucking up my limited free time I'll let you all know down the road.   
      At the very least I'll post on how it goes and point interested  
      people in the direction  of companies can do it in their local areas.
      
      Jeff Carpenter
      40304
      
      On Jan 25, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Niko wrote:
      
      > I have been wondering how people do lettering in their instument  
      > panels.  Anyone care to volunteer some info?
      >
      > Niko
      > 40188 on Cabin Cover
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > forums.matronics.com_- 
      > ===========================================================
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com>
Subject: 
Elevator movement
Date: 
Jan 25, 2007
      
      Tonight I installed my elevators and control tube.  After install, the 
      freedom of movement seemed a bit tight.  The elevators do not sag 
      freely.  They will stay in any position I put them.  Not binding, but 
      just a bit tight.  Everything lines up perfectly.  Before I installed 
      the center bolt under the VS, they each sagged more freely.  They have 
      very smooth movement just the same.  Anyone have this experience?    
      
      Dave Leikam
      40496
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John Dunne" <acs(at)acspropeller.com.au>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator movement
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      Not for me Dave, I'd have to say mine easily and freely sagged. 
      Obviously, backtrack the last thing that was O.K and try removing the 
      centre bolt under the VS to see what action that is causing. Have you 
      connected up the control tube to the bell crank at the battery box or is 
      it dragging gently somewhere? I can't see what would be tight unless 
      it's the elevator horn assembly and some leverage on the centre bearing 
      or dragging on one of the rod end bearings at the elevator connections. 
      I'd double check that. Maybe have a look at your hardware to see if 
      there's any rubbing of the cad for a clue.
      
      John 40315
      
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Dave Leikam 
        To: matronics 
        Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:43 PM
        Subject: RV10-List: Elevator movement
      
      
        Tonight I installed my elevators and control tube.  After install, the 
      freedom of movement seemed a bit tight.  The elevators do not sag 
      freely.  They will stay in any position I put them.  Not binding, but 
      just a bit tight.  Everything lines up perfectly.  Before I installed 
      the center bolt under the VS, they each sagged more freely.  They have 
      very smooth movement just the same.  Anyone have this experience?    
      
        Dave Leikam
        40496
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bob Leffler" <rvmail(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      Dave,
      
      
      Your illustration helped immensely.
      
      
      A couple questions...
      
      
      The servo arm appears not to be perpendicular to the trim tab.   I'm
      assuming that there must not be any issues with the hinge binding, since it
      is this way on both your and Vic's rudders.   I guess I'm just looking for
      validation that isn't the case.
      
      
      I just spent about 15 minutes on Van's site looking for the access plate
      information to order.  I couldn't find it.   If I could trouble you to find
      those part numbers, I would be very appreciative.
      
      
      Thanks,
      
      
      Bob
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert(at)aol.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:49 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Group,
      
      
          I'm sending this one more time with the attachment. I wasn't happy with
      the description and dimensions. Again sorry about that!  Bob, the main thing
      is to order the access cover and backing plate and lay it out with the plate
      in hand before cutting. However, you could make one yourself. 
      
      
          Hope this helps. If not let me know. Also, if anyone has any comments
      feel free.
      
      
      Dave Syvertson
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bob Leffler" <rvmail(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: 
Lettering for Panels
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      I recently finished an aluminum overlay for my Cherokee 180.   I used
      Aircraft Engravers to engrave the painted panel.   They turned the panel
      around in about a week.   For more info:   www.engravers.net
      <http://www.engravers.net/> .
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
      Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:17 PM
      Subject: RV10-List: Lettering for Panels
      
      
      I have been wondering how people do lettering in their instument panels.
      Anyone care to volunteer some info?
      
      
      Niko
      
      40188 on Cabin Cover
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
From: 
Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Bob, I think this is the part, if he used the same one as Vic.
      
       From Van's, when I ordered:
      
      Part Number: VA-195C
      Quantity: 2
      Unit Price: 3.80
      
      Part Number: VA-195D
      Quantity: 1
      Unit Price: 2.65
      
      
      I got 2 of the doublers because one builder said when he did them
      they were thin so he used 2.....or maybe it was that he wrecked
      one.  Can't remember which right now.
      
      
      Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
      
      
      Bob Leffler wrote:
      > Dave,
        > Your illustration helped immensely.
      > 
      > A couple questions.
        >
      > The servo arm appears not to be perpendicular to the trim tab.   Im 
      > assuming that there must not be any issues with the hinge binding, since 
      > it is this way on both your and Vics rudders.   I guess Im just 
      > looking for validation that isnt the case.
      
      > I just spent about 15 minutes on Vans site looking for the access plate 
      > information to order.  I couldnt find it.   If I could trouble you to 
      > find those part numbers, I would be very appreciative.
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Bob
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: 
Elevator movement
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      That sounds to me like the holes in the horns that bolt together with 
      the
      AN4-13A (or whatever it is) night not be quite lined up.  I would pull 
      that
      bolt out and see if that makes the difference.  If you are connected to 
      the
      pushrod, pull that off as well and find out, adding one thing at a time,
      where the problem is.  I know it is a pain to get those washers in on 
      the
      AN4 bolt, but removing a number of things and then adding them one at a 
      time
      to see what makes the difference would be my suggestion.  If it is not 
      that
      the holes are misaligned, then it could be that you have too many/few
      washers around that bearing and it is getting a little distorted when
      tightened and putting drag on the system.  It is not hard at all to get 
      that
      hold a little off center, so that is where I would recommend looking.
      
      
      BTW, did anybody else have problems with the drill bushing not fitting 
      in
      the bearing.  With a lathe that problem is easily fixed, but we ended up
      having to have a bushing machined from scratch to do that drilling.  
      Also,
      on drilling the horns for the pushrod, use a block of aluminum instead 
      of a
      block of wood as Van=92s suggests, and make sure that when you measure 
      to
      drill the first horn that it is not hanging lower than the other, 
      because
      that might put you too close to the edge of the second.  Anybody having 
      the
      horns quite a bit out of alignment?  I have seen some that are over =BD 
      inch
      out of alignment and others that are perfectly lined up.  The plans say 
      that
      they might not be quite right, but that is a lot of variation.
      
      
      Hope this helps.  I was working on that exact thing this week, so it is
      pretty fresh.  Let me know how it comes out.
      
      
      Jesse Saint
      
      Saint Aviation, Inc.
      
      jesse(at)saintaviation.com
      
      www.saintaviation.com
      
      Cell: 352-427-0285
      
      Fax: 815-377-3694
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
      Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:44 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Elevator movement
      
      
      Tonight I installed my elevators and control tube.  After install, the
      freedom of movement seemed a bit tight.  The elevators do not sag 
      freely.
      They will stay in any position I put them.  Not binding, but just a bit
      tight.  Everything lines up perfectly.  Before I installed the center 
      bolt
      under the VS, they each sagged more freely.  They have very smooth 
      movement
      just the same.  Anyone have this experience?    
      
      
      Dave Leikam
      
      40496
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: 
Re: Electric Rudder Trim
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      If you are looking for the parts like are used for the stall warning system,
      they are VA-195C for the Access Hatch Doubler and VA-195D for the Access
      Hatch.
      
      
      Jesse Saint
      
      Saint Aviation, Inc.
      
      jesse(at)saintaviation.com
      
      www.saintaviation.com
      
      Cell: 352-427-0285
      
      Fax: 815-377-3694
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
      Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:03 AM
      Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Dave,
      
      
      Your illustration helped immensely.
      
      
      A couple questions...
      
      
      The servo arm appears not to be perpendicular to the trim tab.   I'm
      assuming that there must not be any issues with the hinge binding, since it
      is this way on both your and Vic's rudders.   I guess I'm just looking for
      validation that isn't the case.
      
      
      I just spent about 15 minutes on Van's site looking for the access plate
      information to order.  I couldn't find it.   If I could trouble you to find
      those part numbers, I would be very appreciative.
      
      
      Thanks,
      
      
      Bob
      
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert(at)aol.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:49 PM
      Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Electric Rudder Trim
      
      
      Group,
      
      
          I'm sending this one more time with the attachment. I wasn't happy with
      the description and dimensions. Again sorry about that!  Bob, the main thing
      is to order the access cover and backing plate and lay it out with the plate
      in hand before cutting. However, you could make one yourself. 
      
      
          Hope this helps. If not let me know. Also, if anyone has any comments
      feel free.
      
      
      Dave Syvertson
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Lettering for Panels
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
From: 
"Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com>
      
      
      I used Camera Graphics in Oregon to produce rub-off letters.  You supply
      them with a .doc and .pdf file, they create a master sheet, and then
      copy the master to a transfer sheet.  My 8-1/2" x 11" sheet cost $65
      including shipping.  I was very pleased with the outcome.  It has the
      same professional appearance as silkscreening.
      
      You can contact them at 503-234-1967 or email them at
      transfers(at)cgpdx.com.  Mr. Zell is very good to work with.  He sends an
      invoice with the order, and turnaround time for mine was only a day or
      two.
      
      From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>
      Subject: RV10-List: Lettering for Panels
      
      I have been wondering how people do lettering in their instument panels.
      A
      nyone care to volunteer some info?=0A=0ANiko=0A40188 on Cabin Cover
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Subject: 
Re: Elevator movement
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
      
      My drill bushing did not fit the bearing at all. Since I do not have  
      access to a lathe, I did as the plans suggest and worked it down with  
      
      a file. My horns were a bit out of alignment, but not enough to cause  
      
      any problems. I used a block of wood per the plans and believe I got  
      the holes lined up very well. I will be fitting it all together this  
      weekend, so will know for sure if everything is OK.
      
      David Maib
      #40559
      
      On Jan 26, 2007, at 6:41 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
      
      That sounds to me like the holes in the horns that bolt together with  
      
      the AN4-13A (or whatever it is) night not be quite lined up.  I would  
      
      pull that bolt out and see if that makes the difference.  If you are  
      connected to the pushrod, pull that off as well and find out, adding  
      one thing at a time, where the problem is.  I know it is a pain to  
      get those washers in on the AN4 bolt, but removing a number of things  
      
      and then adding them one at a time to see what makes the difference  
      would be my suggestion.  If it is not that the holes are misaligned,  
      then it could be that you have too many/few washers around that  
      bearing and it is getting a little distorted when tightened and  
      putting drag on the system.  It is not hard at all to get that hold a  
      
      little off center, so that is where I would recommend looking.
      
      
      BTW, did anybody else have problems with the drill bushing not  
      fitting in the bearing.  With a lathe that problem is easily fixed,  
      but we ended up having to have a bushing machined from scratch to do  
      that drilling.  Also, on drilling the horns for the pushrod, use a  
      block of aluminum instead of a block of wood as Van=92s suggests, and  
      
      make sure that when you measure to drill the first horn that it is  
      not hanging lower than the other, because that might put you too  
      close to the edge of the second.  Anybody having the horns quite a  
      bit out of alignment?  I have seen some that are over =BD inch out of  
      
      alignment and others that are perfectly lined up.  The plans say that  
      
      they might not be quite right, but that is a lot of variation.
      
      
      Hope this helps.  I was working on that exact thing this week, so it  
      is pretty fresh.  Let me know how it comes out.
      
      
      Jesse Saint
      
      Saint Aviation, Inc.
      
      jesse(at)saintaviation.com
      
      www.saintaviation.com
      
      Cell: 352-427-0285
      
      Fax: 815-377-3694
      
      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- 
      server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
      Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:44 AM
      Subject: RV10-List: Elevator movement
      
      
      Tonight I installed my elevators and control tube.  After install,  
      the freedom of movement seemed a bit tight.  The elevators do not sag  
      
      freely.  They will stay in any position I put them.  Not binding, but  
      
      just a bit tight.  Everything lines up perfectly.  Before I installed  
      
      the center bolt under the VS, they each sagged more freely.  They  
      have very smooth movement just the same.  Anyone have this experience?
      
      
      Dave Leikam
      
      40496
      
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
      http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      =========
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Jan 26, 2007
From: 
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Lettering for Panels
      
      
      Dan, How is the lettering protected from scratching/abrasion? Did you 
      seal the letters with anything (clearcoat?) This looks like an excellent 
      option,
      
      Deems Davis # 406
      Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
      http://deemsrv10.com/
      
      Snow, Daniel A. wrote:
      
      >
      >I used Camera Graphics in Oregon to produce rub-off letters.  You supply
      >them with a .doc and .pdf file, they create a master sheet, and then
      >copy the master to a transfer sheet.  My 8-1/2" x 11" sheet cost $65
      >including shipping.  I was very pleased with the outcome.  It has the
      >same professional appearance as silkscreening.
      >
      >You can contact them at 503-234-1967 or email them at
      >transfers(at)cgpdx.com.  Mr. Zell is very good to work with.  He sends an

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January 20, 2007 - January 26, 2007

RV10-Archive.digest.vol-bz

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