RV10-Archive.digest.vol-cb
February 11, 2007 - February 21, 2007
Both customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was only
ONE airplane, and an incomplete one at that.
Both customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had paid a
LOT OF $$'s for their plane).
The "Kymera 750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super structurally
modified (Chris told me many times personally about all his "engineering"
modifications to the airplane that made it so different from an RV-10).
Quote from their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high payload".
This whole thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of money.
Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the details. They claimed:
274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull load, 120gal fuel capacity and
750+ hp turbocharged engine.
The only sad thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so ignorant
(who in the world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely done). The
fact is there is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I don't think the
guy is stupid, just one of the most ignorant people I've ever met. Who
thinks they have 9" GRT displays, or a 92" prop, or an 80% completed
airplane that's barely unpacked from the crate?!?!?!? I feel bad for anyone
that now falls for those lies or plain ignorance (I don't know which), just
like the original two owners fell for Oppermans lies.
As far as picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the most
ethical, moral, or honest person in the world when it came to customers and
business. We all may wonder how in the world people get involved in things
like that, and at the time of his supposed death when I found out all the
nasty details from both customers I thought - - "Who would send that much
money without getting anything back, etc.. or checking in constantly".
Then, I find myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the
middle of this D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up on the
receiving end of bad deals.
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
P.S., I've attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it) for your
review. Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try and "resell"
these things for him...!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
lessdragprod(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine
died of a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
I think that the tipoff that this *might* be BS is the 2500 mile range
with 120 gallons, economy cruise of around 225mph. With these numbers,
that means over 11 hour endurance, which equates to *10GPH fuel burn on
a 700+HP engine. *
As Scotty says: "You cannot change the laws of physics!" Doctors you
say? Must be Psychology.... You just can't make this stuff up...
-Jim
SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
> Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from
> literally everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It
> seems even Jims "understanding" is just flat wrong. The facts are:
>
> Predator Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750"
> (aka an RV-10 with a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.
>
> They Kymera "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was
> around $200K.
>
> They had to call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation
> themselves got in trouble selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA
> got in the middle of it some time ago).
>
> Predator Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to
> individuals who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of
> thousands of $$'s here).
>
> Incidentally, both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one
> of them very well and just met the other after this whole debacle. I
> was building the panel for one of the customers and the other was
> being built by Predator (supposedly).
>
> Chris ordered avionis from me for "both" planes.
>
> Predator Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete
> with pictures, progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.
>
> Both customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane
> built by Opperman and relied on his "progress reports" of newly
> clecoed together pieces as proof of progress.
>
> Both customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each other.
>
> Both customers didn't spend time on site.
>
> Both customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was
> only ONE airplane, and an incomplete one at that.
>
> Both customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had
> paid a LOT OF $$'s for their plane).
>
> The "Kymera 750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super
> structurally modified (Chris told me many times personally about all
> his "engineering" modifications to the airplane that made it so
> different from an RV-10).
>
> Quote from their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high
> payload".
>
> This whole thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of
> money. Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the
> details. They claimed: 274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull
> load, 120gal fuel capacity and 750+ hp turbocharged engine.
>
> The only sad thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so
> ignorant (who in the world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely
> done). The fact is there is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I
> don't think the guy is stupid, just one of the most ignorant people
> I've ever met. Who thinks they have 9" GRT displays, or a 92" prop,
> or an 80% completed airplane that's barely unpacked from the
> crate?!?!?!? I feel bad for anyone that now falls for those lies or
> plain ignorance (I don't know which), just like the original two
> owners fell for Oppermans lies.
>
> As far as picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the
> most ethical, moral, or honest person in the world when it came
> to customers and business. We all may wonder how in the world people
> get involved in things like that, and at the time of his supposed
> death when I found out all the nasty details from both customers I
> thought - - "Who would send that much money without getting anything
> back, etc.. or checking in constantly".
>
> Then, I find myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the
> middle of this D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up
> on the receiving end of bad deals.
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems
> like I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge
> of the situation.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> P.S., I've attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it)
> for your review. Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try
> and "resell" these things for him...!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]*On Behalf Of*
> lessdragprod(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
> I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
> APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons
> dream.
>
> It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream
> machine died of a sudden heart attack.
>
> I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
>
> Jim Ayers
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LessDragProd(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
Hi Stein,
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one.
Jim Ayers
Build more - Type less.
In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally
everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It seems even Jims
"understanding" is just flat wrong.
(Stuff Cut)
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Shawn Moon <moons1999(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates |
That is what I was thinking about. Thought there might be a better way to
do it but I guess not. Thanks for the reply.=0A=0A--Shawn=0A40366=0A=0A---
-- Original Message ----=0AFrom: James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>=0ATo: rv10-lis
t(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:07:17 PM=0ASubject: Re:
RV10-List: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates=0A=0A--> RV10-List message posted by
: James Hein =0A=0AI just used a deburring bit (100 degree)
in an electric screwdriver... =0AJust keep going until the rivet is flush
.=0A=0ATakes longer than the microstop, and you need to be careful of the
=0Adepth, but it works!=0A=0A-Jim 40384=0A=0AShawn Moon wrote:=0A=0A> All,
=0A> I am working on the wing spars and on page 13-4 step 3 I need to
=0A> machine countersink the nutplate attach rivet holes. That's all fine
=0A> and dandy but there are two holes for the fuel tank nutplates that are
=0A> too close to the spar step to get the countersink in there. How have
=0A> you been able to get in there? I am sure I am missing something very
=0A> obvious. Thanks in advance.=0A>=0A> --Shawn=0A> 40366=0A>=0A> ------
------------------------------------------------------------------=0A> Neve
r Miss an Email=0A> Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get sta
rted! =0A> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/ser
===================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A___________________________________________________________
_________________________=0AIt's here! Your new message! =0AGet new email
alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.=0Ahttp://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolba
r/features/mail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net> |
You're absolutely right, bellybuttons are prevalent, but
Opinions based on fact seem to be in short supply..(just my ill informed
opinion)
I find myself strangely curious as to the different takes on the
many subjects touched on in this group.
I really don't mind the banter; I have a quick delete finger. But, I really
appreciate when someone steps up and clears the air. In this case its Stein,
But I tip my hat to all contributors who educate, inform, and entertain on a
daily basis.
Steve d
40205
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LessDragProd(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
Hi Stein,
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one.
Jim Ayers
Build more - Type less.
In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally
everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It seems even Jims
"understanding" is just flat wrong.
(Stuff Cut)
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Testement" <jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com> |
| Subject: | Electrical System Critique |
Thank you Tim, Larry, Jesse, and Carl for you inputs.
My guess is that there are a lot of us deliberating the numerous options and
trade offs on the electrical system. I would like to encourage us to get a
useful dialog going to sort through the pros and cons of the various
approaches.
Based on what I have learned, I have changed my approach considerably. I
have attached my new design as well as the old design (as a PDF for those
who could not open it before). Let's continue to critique the approach for
everyone's benefit.
Tim made some really good points about having independent power (not on the
cranking battery) to the Cheltons, Eng. Monitor and Elect. Ignition for
engine start. This caused me to drop the idea of having a 2nd battery
available for cranking and use the second battery for start-up avionics and
Ebus backup. The main changes I have made are:
I am going with one large main battery - Odyssey 925, 25AH; and a smaller
12AH auxiliary battery (much like Tim's).
During engine start I will run the Ebus (PFD, Eng Mon and E Ign) off of the
Aux battery while cranking from the main battery. After start, I will turn
off the Ebus alternate feed, turn on the Avionics switch, and run everything
off the main battery. I will run the E Ign. off the aux battery (everything
is really running off the alternator during flight anyway).
I have moved the pitot heat and the fuel boost pump to the main bus.
If the alternator fails I will switch to the Ebus alt feed, manually load
shed the main bus (most loads are on switches anyway). And if I need fuel
boost or pitot, I can turn the main bus back on. The only downside is if the
main battery fails I can only power the Ebus from the aux battery.
I took the contactor off the aux battery since the load is under 15A and a
contactor would draw 1A during an emergency. I don't have an Aux battery
switch (other than the Ebus alt feed switch) since I can't think of a need
for one. The Aux battery will be charged through a diode to the main bus and
the E. Ign is tied through a breaker.
I put the Eng. Monitor on the Ebus since it will be on during start up. I
will be using the AFS3400 which gives me full EFIS back up with its own
internal battery.
Some concerns and questions: I am running #8 from the alternator to the main
bus. The wire size chart (AC43.13) says a #8 wire is good for 70A at 10ft.
Others are using #6 to go from alternator to the main bus. Do I have a
problem?
Should I put the smaller aux battery under the flap tunnel or next to the
main battery for W&B? What is a good/light 12AH battery?
Is the Ebus diode really needed in this design?
Should the main battery be grounded locally as well as running to the
firewall?
Let me know what you think and contribute any ideas for the benefit of all
the others who are working through their designs.
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
Reply below
John Testement wrote:
> Thank you Tim, Larry, Jesse, and Carl for you inputs.
>
> My guess is that there are a lot of us deliberating the numerous options and
> trade offs on the electrical system. I would like to encourage us to get a
> useful dialog going to sort through the pros and cons of the various
> approaches.
>
I think I have considered every different type electrical design. It
went something like this: Dual alternator single battery, single
alternator dual battery, duel alternator duel battery, then back to a
dual alternator single battery design, which is where I am now. An now
with your comments I am considering a small battery just for start up.
My plan was to use the internal battery in the AFS-3400 to run the
engine monitor during start. All other avionics off.
> Based on what I have learned, I have changed my approach considerably. I
> have attached my new design as well as the old design (as a PDF for those
> who could not open it before). Let's continue to critique the approach for
> everyone's benefit.
>
> .....
>
> If the alternator fails I will switch to the Ebus alt feed,
Shut off the master battery contactor?
> manually load shed the main bus (most loads are on switches anyway).
And then turn on the master battery contactor to use the main battery
and the standby battery?
> And if I need fuel
> boost or pitot, I can turn the main bus back on. The only downside is if the
> main battery fails I can only power the Ebus from the aux battery.
>
If you do lose the main battery, won't the alternator still supply
power, although in may not be a stable?
> ...
>
> Some concerns and questions: I am running #8 from the alternator to the main
> bus. The wire size chart (AC43.13) says a #8 wire is good for 70A at 10ft.
> Others are using #6 to go from alternator to the main bus. Do I have a
> problem?
>
I am using AC 43.13-1B Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices -
Aircraft Inspection and Repair table 11-3 DC wire and circuit protector
chart. It recommends 8AWG up to 50 amp fuse or breaker and 6AWG for an
80amp breaker and 70amp fuse. But, I am sure the devil is in the
details. 11-49 says, "... This chart was prepared for the conditions
specified.... In general, the chart is conservative for all ordinary
aircraft electrical installations" However Table 11-9 Current carrying
capacity and resistance of copper wire. Figure 11-2 does say 8AWG wire
and 70 amps. Since the continuous load is not 60 amps I would think
8AWG is not a problem. That being said I am using 6AWG. I would like
to know more about the details.
> Should I put the smaller aux battery under the flap tunnel or next to the
> main battery for W&B? What is a good/light 12AH battery?
> Is the Ebus diode really needed in this design?
If you find one let me know
>
> Should the main battery be grounded locally as well as running to the
> firewall?
>
>
I think this would give more problems with ground loops.
> Let me know what you think and contribute any ideas for the benefit of all
> the others who are working through their designs.
>
> John Testement
> jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com
> 40321
> Richmond, VA
> FWF, engine, wiring
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
like the "real" planes have?
Richard Reynolds
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve- REDUX |
OK,I 'm sorry, apologize, etc.
Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
for superior crafted OBAM planes?
Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
like the "real" planes have?
Richard Reynolds
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
My Real RV10 has an alternate air source, I used the kit for the static
system from Safeair, and included the alternate option. But I do not
know if the RV10 is real enough for you?
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Reynolds
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
like the "real" planes have?
Richard Reynolds
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
A lot of "unreal" type certificated aircraft are certified for IFR
without an alternate static source. Both TC aircraft I have owned fit
that description.
On 2/12/07, Richard Reynolds wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
> like the "real" planes have?
>
> Richard Reynolds
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rvmail(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | RE: VS-1014 Question in Empennage |
Just got off the phone with Gus at Van's. His opinion was just to proceed, since
dimpling the VS-1003 and countersinking the VS-1014s doesn't weaken the structure.
He didn't think there would be an issue with the edge of the counter sink at the
upper end of the VS-1014. But quickly added if that bothered me, just to add
a doubler on the last two (top) holes to the VS-1014.
Boy, did I learn some lessons this weekend! Thanks to all that provided feedback.
bob
>It appears that my mistake was that I dimpled VS-1003 and VS-1001, then
>counter sink VS-1014.
>It has been brought to my attention that I should have not done anything to
>VS-1014 and just counter sink VS1003 to accept the dimpled skin.
>The question that I guess Van's will need to answer is can I just rivet
>this, or will it require me to start fresh with new parts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rvmail(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
My Cherokee has the same valve for an alternate static source as the fuel quick
drain valves. I don't recall their name, but I can look it up when I get home.
I paid like $75 dollars to get it from Wentworth, so I was sure to installed
the OEM part, but was disappointed when I saw what the valve actually was and
could have bought the same valve (although not with the appropriate Piper p/n#)
from my FBO for about $10.
In looking at the Safeair alternate, while it appears to be quite easy to remove
the plug, how easy is it to blindly replace the plug for testing?
The valve on my Cherokee can open and close blindy with one finger. The valve
is just under the dash by my knee.
>
> From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>
> Date: 2007/02/12 Mon AM 10:02:53 EST
> To:
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
>
>
> My Real RV10 has an alternate air source, I used the kit for the static
> system from Safeair, and included the alternate option. But I do not
> know if the RV10 is real enough for you?
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
> Reynolds
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:11 AM
> To: Email RV; rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
>
>
> Does anyone have a source or suggestion for the alternate air valve
> like the "real" planes have?
>
> Richard Reynolds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall |
I tried to drill the engine mount holes in the firewall this weekend. Afte
r drilling the left upper hole first (pilots side) I noticed that the firew
all pilot hole on the upper right side is about 3/16 inch off (outboard.)
The lower holes are not too bad. I sent an email to Vans asking if I shoul
d simply stretch the engine mount frame into place since it appears I can p
ull it into place with just my hands (no clamps ). Here is the response.
=0A=0A"Since the engine mount weldment moves somewhat when it it =0Aremoved
from the jig, we don't expect all the holes to line up. If =0Aafter drill
ing the upper left hole, some of the other holes seem to be =0Afairly close
, drill them first. Drill the upper right hole last. Don't =0Aforce the m
ount into position."=0A=0AI am including this since when I did a search on
the archives I found references to forcing the mount into position.=0A=0AFo
llowing the recommended procedure it would be interesting if one has to rep
lace an engine mount frame. I hope they all move the same amount after rem
oval from the jig.=0A=0A=0ANiko=0A40188
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve- REDUX |
Try Tony at SAFEAIR1.
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
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Try Tony at SAFEAIR1.
Dean
40449
______________________
__________________________________________________
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