RV10-Archive.digest.vol-cc
February 21, 2007 - March 07, 2007
On 2/21/07, Werner Schneider wrote:
>
> Hello Dean and Jim
>
> I only partly agree on that, I did go the cheap route with a KX-125 and
> a KN75 first, then had to add a KI-106 for glideslope. Then the KX
> failed shortly after 2 years, they did charge me $1200.- to fix it. The
> whole setup was much more expensive then if I had gone with am SL-30
> straight ahead (you find them used to (but seldom)). The SL-30 has many
> nice features like 2nd com listen mode, cross reference tracking of 2nd
> NAV and you can have the display of the glideslop on any Dynon EFIS.
>
> I swapped meanwhile the King stuff with an SL-30 and I did not regret,
> except that I would have saved a lot of money going that route from the
> start.
>
> br Werner
>
> ddddsp1(at)juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to
> > do. They are out there. Also, one has to be willing to buy other
> > brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs. For
> > example, A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500? There are other GPS
> > units that will fit your bill for $1000. SAVINGS = $2500 Also, a
> > Garmin SL30 is $3250? A new Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio
> > can be had for $2250. SAVINGS = $1000. I would love the greatest and
> > latest from Garmin too, but I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price
> > versus other Avionics that do what I need. I flew a Cherokee 140 all
> > day yesterday..............the newest thing in the IFR panel was a
> > pair of KING 155's. The owner was a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet
> > your needs and your budget............ NOT to impress your friends and
> > fellow pilots!
> >
> >
> >
> > Dean 40449
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > *FREE* Reminder Service - *NEW* from AmericanGreetings.com
> > Click *HERE* and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again!
> > <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752>
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
I am in a particular spot in my building process which has provided me with
a certain perspective on all this and many of the builders I am sure have
felt what I am going through at one time or another.
All the planning on the panel costs and other anticipated costs are good and
a wise thing to do. It is my thought however, that if you are really nit
picking the costs to such a degree, than I might take a look at exactly why
you are thinking of building the Rv in the first place. Is it all about
cutting costs? It is a lot like building a home. It is always more expensive
than first imagined.
All I am suggesting is that there is a lot of time, a lot of effort and
money from the time you start to the actual time when you get to start
putting in the panel. If it has been a life long dream to build your own
plane, then no matter how much it costs, go for it. If you are doing to cut
costs, I might suggest that it is much like putting a nice steak into one
end of the meat grinder. You know the meat will come out the other end, but
it might not be what you expected coming out the other end. It is a beast of
a project. It is not difficult work, and a lot of it fun for the most part,
just time consuming and very difficult alongside life's other
responsibilties, unless you have a lot of free time.
My two cents. Emotional cents.
JOhn G.
>From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:39 -0800
>
>Jim
>
>
>You are adding unnecessary expenses by wanting more than a good IFR
>platform.. Price out Dual grand rapids efis, SL30, 300 xl the Gtx 327,
>drop
>down in quality to Maybe a 1000II audio, and a lesser auto pilot and you
>will save a lot of money, and you will have a certified IFR aircraft, that
>is better than what's in every DC-8 or 707 in the world.
>
>
>2 cents worth
>
>
>Bob K
>
>Panel and fiberglass and wires and oxygen system and a few rivets now and
>then just to keep in practice.
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark
>IV
>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
>
>
>John,
>
>
>I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to
>apply to me.
>
>
>Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel. I
>will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying to
>budget these options with some detail.
>
>
>My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that I
>can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line or my
>final configuration for the first few years). This platform may have steam
>gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or glass flight
>instruments (RV10).
>
>
>My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal cost
>IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut it:
>Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics + Finishing is
>where I have choices and drastically different costs.
>
>
>For example one possible IFR option:
>
>2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS
>
>8000B audio panel
>
>GNS480
>
>DigiFlight-IIVSGV
>
>SL30 NavCom
>
>GTX327
>
>ADI, Alt, AS, Compass
>
>
>The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I
>have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs
>that Anh sent out)
>
>
>Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell
>myself short".
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jim Clark
>
>-Still learning the ropes...
>
>
>On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
>
>
>The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
>
>gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
>
>most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in
>
>time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
>
>only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
>
>applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540
>
>cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
>
>and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
>
>
>Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
>
>
>John Cox
>
>#40600
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
>
>Clark IV
>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
>
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>
>Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
>
>
>
>
>
>Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
>
>about your panel choices.
>
>
>Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
>
>for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
>
>those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
>
>
>I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
>
>is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
>
>target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
>
>heard several say lower. What am I missing?
>
>
>I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
>
>Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
>
>Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
>
>well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
>
>it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
>
>Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
>
>much this saves) - various posters
>
>Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
>
>IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
>
>instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
>
>road. - Linn
>
>Go slow build to save...-various
>
>
>John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
>
>Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
>
>
>Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
>
>if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
>
>maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
>
>
>What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
>
>
>Thanks for all your help,
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jim Clark
>
>
>- The RV10-List Email Forum -
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Reconditioned prop (was IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)) |
From: | "Vern W. Smith" <Vern(at)teclabsinc.com> |
John,
In your reply you mentioned Randy used a reconditioned prop. I thought
the Hartzel for the RV10 was a new design and there were no "used"
propellers available. Is there any more information about possible
reconditioned options?
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
Randy used a reconditioned prop
and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
John Cox
#40600
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
Nick couldn't agree more...for a few $$ the 430 is so much more capable but
I thought the ideas was "budget" IFR...with the amount of time to plan...it
seems that there will lots of newer and more interesting products coming on
the market place...Is TruTrak coming along with their EFIS? As Kelly point
ed
out there are many radio's to select along with audio
panels/transponders/little monitors for the rear seats!
When it comes to "toy's" I'm a cash sort of guy.
P
________________________
I agree with everything except. I=99d combine the 300xl and
a VOR and find a
used 430. If you look around they can usually be found for 4-4500. Yes a
little more than a 300, but it combines space and IMO has better situationa
l
awareness.
FWIW
Nick Nafsinger
**************************************
Check out free AOL at
http://free.aol.com/thenewaol/index.adp. Most comprehensive set of free
safety and security tools, millions of free high-quality videos from across
the
web, free AOL Mail and much more.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
Subject: | A bit overwhelmed |
I have come to the end of the plans for the empennage kit on my 10. I
still have to finish installing the trim servo assembly, and glass tail
tips, rudder tips, tail strobe...etc. I am waiting on my fuse and
wings. I need to start accumulating glass supplies, (good posts from
Gary and John Testement recently) and also get together electrical
supplies, wire, conduit and so forth. The project suddenly seems a bit
overwhelming as I anticipate the delivery of the next kits. I don't
want to lose momentum but I find myself staring into space trying to
figure out what to accomplish next most efficiently. My wife just told
me yesterday she can't wait until the plane is done because of all the
crap which happened recently with commercial air travel. Give me a push
guys!
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
This thread seems to be more about saving money than building an
airplane. If finances are that big of an issue in Jim's decision process
(as they seem to be). This issue will continue to raise it's ugly head
throughout a long and sometimes stressful process. And not just on
avionics issues, which is the current fixation, but on virtually every
item that Van's does not supply in the kit (at least 70% of the total
airplane finished cost for which you will have several options to select
from). I would hope that after investing the considerable amount of time
(not just in building, but in researching, learning, etc) Jim will want
for yourself an airplane that he can be proud of, one that will echo the
pride and workmanship of those that have already been completed as a
part of the -10 fleet. Starting off cutting corners is not a good way to
begin IMO. My advice would be to seriously consider whether he can
reasonably allow for more financial headroom, as I can promise that it
will be needed. If not, go for the Archer and save the building until a
time in life where if better fits with work/life situation.
I speak from experience having started (but not finished) 2 kits earlier
in life when job, family and finances were different. I got into an IFR
Arrow on a partnership, then worked my way into owning a Bonanza, and
then traded up into several other TC aircraft. I'm now in a situation
that the stars and moon are all aligned and I'm able to complete my
postponed dream of build my own plane. You NEED a LOT of PASSION and
desire to do this as it's a LONG journey. The statistics suggest that
the majority of builders that begin a project do not finish it.
Finances are the leading reason for abandoning a project.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I am in a particular spot in my building process which has provided me
> with a certain perspective on all this and many of the builders I am
> sure have felt what I am going through at one time or another.
>
> All the planning on the panel costs and other anticipated costs are
> good and a wise thing to do. It is my thought however, that if you are
> really nit picking the costs to such a degree, than I might take a
> look at exactly why you are thinking of building the Rv in the first
> place. Is it all about cutting costs?
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
You could do what I did....
First, you figure out how much the aircraft will cost to build, then
file that paper away. Go blindly forth buying and building, and file
away the receipts. Don't calculate your costs EVER during the build.
This will only make you unhappy. Don't try to figure out why you seem
to be over budget (using only mental calculations), this will also make
you unhappy. Try to save money on things, and be proud when you do.
Don't think about the fact that you've bought an extra fuse side skin, 4
extra trim tabs, all the parts necessary for a new baggage door (because
you couldn't live with a 1/8" gap), a new battery tray (because you
countersunk the wrong side when you were building), the countless single
switches from Mouser.com that you buy to evaluate the coolness factor
(and that end up in the "switches" box in the "airplane room").... I'll
cut myself off here because I could go on for awhile remembering parts
that I've screwed up and/or bought and not used.... Anyway, also don't
mind the total and complete deconstruction of the "what expensive is"
portion of your brain. This drives up the cost of an airplane. For
example: I'm at the supermarket, looking at cheese. The Kraft cheese
is $3.00, the fancy cheese is $5.50. You look at it and think, "well,
why not...after all, it's not like it's a $41,000 engine or anything,
and we deserve it for that hard weekend of building that we put in!"
After awhile, the extra $1.50 for cheese turns into leather seats with
seat-heaters. It's only a couple thousand more, and it'll be soooo
nice! This condition should not be confused with the "well, I'll only
build one, so I better make it exactly as neato as I want" condition.
This is the condition whereby you start building an airplane with a
budget and a plan, and then as the aircraft starts to become real,
suddenly (or not so suddenly) you decide that you only want the best for
your baby. This starting to sound familiar to anyone out there? yep.
It does to me. Also I'm a low time pilot who doesn't have a plane
already, and I have to make time to fly. In my area, an IFR 172 that
you'd actually want to fly in IFR conditions runs $130 (wet) an hour.
Oh, and I hadn't budgeted on the cost to get my instrument rating.
Expensive.
Yep. And I'm happy as a clam. Eventually I'll run out of parts or
money, and hopefully both at the same time! for me, I was never much of
a bean counter, and I'm enjoying the process. One day, I'll figure out
how much it cost me in dollars, and it'll seem like a bargain for how
much I've gotten back in experience. Corny, but true. And I'm not even
flying yet.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
John,
I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to
apply to me.
Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel.
I will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying
to budget these options with some detail.
My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that
I can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line
or my final configuration for the first few years). This platform may
have steam gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or
glass flight instruments (RV10).
My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal
cost IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut
it: Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics +
Finishing
is where I have choices and drastically different costs.
For example one possible IFR option:
2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS
8000B audio panel
GNS480
DigiFlight-IIVSGV
SL30 NavCom
GTX327
ADI, Alt, AS, Compass
The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I
have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs
that Anh sent out)
Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell
myself short".
Best regards,
Jim Clark
-Still learning the ropes...
On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in
time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540
cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Cory Emberson <bootless(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: re: infant ear protectors |
When my son was an infant, we cut the foam earplugs down, inserted
those, and then put a knit cap with a chin strap/ties on over that so
they wouldn't come out.
I've seen the MuttMuffs, which are cool for dogs, but the woman who
invented them told me they did not have a noise reduction rating (which
is an expensive proposition). Also, their design takes into account the
dog's natural hearing protection - their ears flopping over. So, they
would probably be ok if the baby is also wearing cut-down earplugs as well.
Hope this helps,
Cory
PILOTDDS(at)aol.com wrote:
> When i was at oshkosh another 10 pilot & his wife discussed using dog
> hearing protectors to protect their infant's ears. Does anyone have a
> pirep on this technique or any other suggestions to protect a four
> month old child's ears.
> The 10 is a family plane, right? 728DD 113 hours and loving it!
>
>
> **************************************
> Check out free AOL at http://free.aol.com/thenewaol/index.adp. Most
> comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, millions of free
> high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | control horn remedy |
here are some pics to go with an earlier post many months ago.
John G.
Don't know why the mammoth ski trip title shows??we will see.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall |
Hi Rob,=0A=0AI don't think the settling is from the engine mount I believe
its from the rubber vibration isolators that go between the engine and the
mount.=0A=0AI had talked to Vans about forcing the engine mount into positi
on on the Firewall and they suggested against it. Having said that, typica
lly in aircraft construction the mechanic is allowed to use whatever force
he can generate by his bare hands only, no tools to get extra leverage. Ap
plying excessive force could reduce the life of the part.=0A=0ANiko=0A40188
=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Rob Wright <armywrights@adelphia
.net>=0ATo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:5
6:11 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall
=0A=0A=0AI have =93encouraged=94 my engine mount into position while instal
ling bolts. I wonder what real problems there could be in that little bit
of static tension, as long as it=92s not using a winch to stretch the thing
. I=92m thinking that it may reduce the amount of settling that many exper
ience.=0A =0ARob=0A#392=0ACleaning up emails from a week of vacation ' ne
ed a blackberry!=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko=0ASent: Mon
day, February 12, 2007 10:23 AM=0ATo: Matronics=0ASubject: RV10-List: Engin
e Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall=0A =0AI tried to drill the engine mount
holes in the firewall this weekend. After drilling the left upper hole fir
st (pilots side) I noticed that the firewall pilot hole on the upper right
side is about 3/16 inch off (outboard.) The lower holes are not too bad.
I sent an email to Vans asking if I should simply stretch the engine mount
frame into place since it appears I can pull it into place with just my han
ds (no clamps ). Here is the response.=0A =0A"Since the engine mount weldm
ent moves somewhat when it it =0Aremoved from the jig, we don't expect all
the holes to line up. If =0Aafter drilling the upper left hole, some of th
e other holes seem to be =0Afairly close, drill them first. Drill the uppe
r right hole last. Don't =0Aforce the mount into position."=0A =0AI am inc
luding this since when I did a search on the archives I found references to
forcing the mount into position.=0A =0AFollowing the recommended procedure
it would be interesting if one has to replace an engine mount frame. I ho
pe they all move the same amount after removal from the jig.=0A =0A =0ANiko
================
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
Subject: | Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
I will echo Chris on this. I am doing pretty much what he is as far as
not paying too much attention to the nickels and dimes and even dollars.
I know what I can afford without thinking too hard. I have a file I
put all the receipts in, but I haven't added anything up yet. Think of
what you spend on the little stuff each day before you built your plane.
One of the very reasons I chose to build is that it doesn't hurt so bad
to pay as you go. I look for deals too. I looked at our credit card
charges the other day with my wife and was amazed at the spending on the
thing. We live off our card, barley ever write checks. But most things
are those everyday life things for home and kids. (And an occasional
part from Gretz.) But we always pay the thing off each month.
(Excessive dept is another story.) In the beginning I thought about how
my plane would rank compared to other builders as far as style and
options and technique. Then I realized this is My Plane, for me and my
family. I will build it how I want. As long as it is safe, and I fly
it safe, and I am happy with it, nothing else matters. There is no
wrong way to build a plane which is safe to fly when completed. If a
person wants a basic VFR or IFR panel and likes it who cares? More
power to them for making the journey at all. All I wanted was a two
seat Ran's folding wing plane on floats. then my wife said we had to
have four seats.
Dave Leikam
40496
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Johnston
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
You could do what I did..
First, you figure out how much the aircraft will cost to build, then
file that paper away. Go blindly forth buying and building, and file
away the receipts. Don't calculate your costs EVER during the build.
This will only make you unhappy. Don't try to figure out why you seem
to be over budget (using only mental calculations), this will also make
you unhappy. Try to save money on things, and be proud when you do.
Don't think about the fact that you've bought an extra fuse side skin, 4
extra trim tabs, all the parts necessary for a new baggage door (because
you couldn't live with a 1/8" gap), a new battery tray (because you
countersunk the wrong side when you were building), the countless single
switches from Mouser.com that you buy to evaluate the coolness factor
(and that end up in the "switches" box in the "airplane room").. I'll
cut myself off here because I could go on for awhile remembering parts
that I've screwed up and/or bought and not used.. Anyway, also don't
mind the total and complete deconstruction of the "what expensive is"
portion of your brain. This drives up the cost of an airplane. For
example: I'm at the supermarket, looking at cheese. The Kraft cheese
is $3.00, the fancy cheese is $5.50. You look at it and think, "well,
why not.after all, it's not like it's a $41,000 engine or anything, and
we deserve it for that hard weekend of building that we put in!" After
awhile, the extra $1.50 for cheese turns into leather seats with
seat-heaters. It's only a couple thousand more, and it'll be soooo
nice! This condition should not be confused with the "well, I'll only
build one, so I better make it exactly as neato as I want" condition.
This is the condition whereby you start building an airplane with a
budget and a plan, and then as the aircraft starts to become real,
suddenly (or not so suddenly) you decide that you only want the best for
your baby. This starting to sound familiar to anyone out there? yep.
It does to me. Also I'm a low time pilot who doesn't have a plane
already, and I have to make time to fly. In my area, an IFR 172 that
you'd actually want to fly in IFR conditions runs $130 (wet) an hour.
Oh, and I hadn't budgeted on the cost to get my instrument rating.
Expensive.
Yep. And I'm happy as a clam. Eventually I'll run out of parts or
money, and hopefully both at the same time! for me, I was never much of
a bean counter, and I'm enjoying the process. One day, I'll figure out
how much it cost me in dollars, and it'll seem like a bargain for how
much I've gotten back in experience. Corny, but true. And I'm not even
flying yet.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
John,
I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant
to apply to me.
Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR
panel. I will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am
trying to budget these options with some detail.
My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform
that I can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the
line or my final configuration for the first few years). This platform
may have steam gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments
or glass flight instruments (RV10).
My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal
cost IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut
it: Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics +
Finishing is where I have choices and drastically different costs.
For example one possible IFR option:
2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS
8000B audio panel
GNS480
DigiFlight-IIVSGV
SL30 NavCom
GTX327
ADI, Alt, AS, Compass
The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3
I have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden
costs that Anh sent out)
Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to
"sell myself short".
Best regards,
Jim Clark
-Still learning the ropes...
On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point
in
time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used
IO-540
cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or
toy).
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored
outside?
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should
consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
- The RV10-List Email Forum - -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com> |
Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
This is one part of my life where I don't think too much about the money.
It's not that I don't think about it, of course I do, but to me this is a
legacy to my son. My wife and I put both kids through private high school
(ugh) and spendy colleges (oh, my goodness, ugh). I'll not be able to
retire like many of you, but at least I'll leave a few items to leave
behind. One will be this plane, a couple houses, etc. And when I go, as
the great line in Ocean's 12, I believe it was, I want the last check I
write to bounce.
So....I'm having a good time building. I will have a good, but not great
IFR panel. I will get my IFR rating and learn how to fly much, much better
than I know today. And, if we have a world that will still allow it, I'll
fly the ever loving stuffing out of her before they yank my medical.
John Jessen
#328
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Reconditioned prop (was IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)) |
From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Randy points to an excellent path. Until the blades disappear like the
IO-540 blocks. Consider reconditioned. VAN holds a spot for you for a
new set of scimitar blades and a new Lycoming when you are ready to step
UP and options are gone.
Be realistic - recycle.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reconditioned prop (was IFR RV-10 Budgeting
(ongoing))
Hello, I am back from Vacation. I have a rebuilt early prop. The same
one that was on the prototype RV10 when it first flew. I paid 3500.00
outright and had to wait 7 months for the rebuilder to get a nice set of
blades in. He had a nice used hub in stock. Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Mike Doble (Home Office)" <mikedoble(at)wi.rr.com> |
Subject: | A bit overwhelmed |
Dave - I'll be over with more beer...
Mike (still haven't riveted anything) Doble
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:47 AM
Subject: RV10-List: A bit overwhelmed
I have come to the end of the plans for the empennage kit on my 10. I still
have to finish installing the trim servo assembly, and glass tail tips,
rudder tips, tail strobe...etc. I am waiting on my fuse and wings. I need
to start accumulating glass supplies, (good posts from Gary and John
Testement recently) and also get together electrical supplies, wire, conduit
and so forth. The project suddenly seems a bit overwhelming as I anticipate
the delivery of the next kits. I don't want to lose momentum but I find
myself staring into space trying to figure out what to accomplish next most
efficiently. My wife just told me yesterday she can't wait until the plane
is done because of all the crap which happened recently with commercial air
travel. Give me a push guys!
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "LarryRosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
If you look at the online forum there are 30 pages with the oldest post in December
31, 2006. The formum has a limited retention time. The archives do not
have a time limit.
Jesse, Keep up updated please.
Larry Rosen
#356
--------
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'608#96608
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Aileron and flap actuation |
From: | "Eric_Kallio" <scout019(at)msn.com> |
When attaching the ailerons and flaps I am finding that both peices, on both wings,
rub the top skin. The flaps contact just prior to the neutral position and
the ailerons at about 20 degrees trailing edge down. I don't have pics handy,
but I can get some if needed. Is this common, or do I get to re-work my wings?
Don't want to get to far into the aileron actuation section unitl I clarify
this. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
40518 starting the fuel tanks that were put off til last...the joys of proseal.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'844#96844
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net> |
Subject: | Re: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation |
What have you found to be a good source for strobe lights. The Whelen A500
for the rudder alone is $150 at ACS.
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com> |
Subject: | Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning |
Has anyone else dealt with this issue? I am on page 16-2 on the Top Wing Skins
section. My left wing lined up perfectly. On the right wing, to my surprise, I
have an alignment problem between the top wing skin and the rear spar.
Here are some photos to illustrate...
Every other hole lines up between the top wing skin and the wing skeleton,
except for the inboard rear spar holes. The holes are out of alignment and
gradually come closer into alignment until they are lined up perfectly again
between the 4th and 5th rib, counting the root rib as rib #1.
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4481.html
Broader picture of the general area...
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4482.html
The inboard most hole is the furthest out of line by about 1/16". The rear spar
hole needs to come further aft by 1/16".
I then did a lot of measuring to compare my left wing (perfect) with right wing
(problem). The problem appears to be with the rear spar. The upper flange seems
to taper from 22/32" wide down to 20/32" wide at the inboard edge, which would
account for the 1/16" alignment error in the top skin.
Photo of rear spar top flange on left (correct side):
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4483.html
Photo of rear spar top flange on right (error side):
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4484.html
I spoke with Van's this morning. They made 2 recommendations:
1. Does the bottom skin line up? Answer: surprisingly enough, YES. It's not
perfect, but will be manageable.
2. Drill and rivet the misaligned holes with 1/8" rivets.
The problem with this solution is that the new hole will have an edge-distance
problem. I should have 1/4" clearance to the edge, but I will only have 3/16"
clearance to the aft edge on the rear spar. As I work outboard, the edge
distance issue should get better and better, but still not within spec.
1/16" would not be a problem anywhere else on the wing, as far as I can tell. I
could have "massaged" things possibly by that amount. However, this problem is
at the wing root and wing walk area, which is heavily reinforced. There is no
"massaging" possible here.
Finally, I could get a new rear-spar, however, that means removing all of the
doublers and tons of AN470AD4-8 and 4-6 rivets!!!
Thus, the warning to other builders, BEFORE riveting the rear spar, measure the
top flange on your rear spar, to make sure it stays even in width. Even better,
try fitting the top skin on before riveting the rear spar.
Can anyone provide any other recommendations?
Another thought is, can I somehow put in a shim between the rear spar and the 2
inboard ribs? The shim would have to only be along the top holes, since the
bottom holes are lined up.
Thanks,
Jae
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
Subject: | Re: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation |
I got mine from Van's. Combination strobe and white tail light. Bought the
rest of my lights and strobes from http://www.creativair.com/. They
recommend you buy the tail strobe/light from Van's.
Dave Leikam
40496
Waiting for QB fuse and wings.
----- Original Message -----
From: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa(at)antelecom.net>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation
>
> What have you found to be a good source for strobe lights. The Whelen
> A500 for the rudder alone is $150 at ACS.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin
> 40494
> tail/empennage
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Kevin Belue" <kdbelue(at)charter.net> |
Subject: | Re: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning |
Jae,
I had the same problem (about 2 years ago). My rear spar flange was off more
than yours, though. Van's sent me another spar and I drilled out all the
rivets and replaced it. It looks like you can use yours - I would drill the
holes to match and use the "oops" rivets if necessary. It's a good idea for
everyone to check the dimensions on the rear spar before rivetting because
it is a big job to remove it.
Kevin Belue
RV-6A flying
RV-10 finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
>
> Has anyone else dealt with this issue? I am on page 16-2 on the Top Wing
> Skins
> section. My left wing lined up perfectly. On the right wing, to my
> surprise, I
> have an alignment problem between the top wing skin and the rear spar.
>
> Here are some photos to illustrate...
>
> Every other hole lines up between the top wing skin and the wing skeleton,
> except for the inboard rear spar holes. The holes are out of alignment and
> gradually come closer into alignment until they are lined up perfectly
> again
> between the 4th and 5th rib, counting the root rib as rib #1.
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4481.html
>
> Broader picture of the general area...
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4482.html
>
> The inboard most hole is the furthest out of line by about 1/16". The rear
> spar
> hole needs to come further aft by 1/16".
>
> I then did a lot of measuring to compare my left wing (perfect) with right
> wing
> (problem). The problem appears to be with the rear spar. The upper flange
> seems
> to taper from 22/32" wide down to 20/32" wide at the inboard edge, which
> would
> account for the 1/16" alignment error in the top skin.
>
> Photo of rear spar top flange on left (correct side):
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4483.html
>
> Photo of rear spar top flange on right (error side):
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4484.html
>
> I spoke with Van's this morning. They made 2 recommendations:
>
> 1. Does the bottom skin line up? Answer: surprisingly enough, YES. It's
> not
> perfect, but will be manageable.
>
> 2. Drill and rivet the misaligned holes with 1/8" rivets.
>
> The problem with this solution is that the new hole will have an
> edge-distance
> problem. I should have 1/4" clearance to the edge, but I will only have
> 3/16"
> clearance to the aft edge on the rear spar. As I work outboard, the edge
> distance issue should get better and better, but still not within spec.
>
> 1/16" would not be a problem anywhere else on the wing, as far as I can
> tell. I
> could have "massaged" things possibly by that amount. However, this
> problem is
> at the wing root and wing walk area, which is heavily reinforced. There is
> no
> "massaging" possible here.
>
> Finally, I could get a new rear-spar, however, that means removing all of
> the
> doublers and tons of AN470AD4-8 and 4-6 rivets!!!
>
> Thus, the warning to other builders, BEFORE riveting the rear spar,
> measure the
> top flange on your rear spar, to make sure it stays even in width. Even
> better,
> try fitting the top skin on before riveting the rear spar.
>
> Can anyone provide any other recommendations?
>
> Another thought is, can I somehow put in a shim between the rear spar and
> the 2
> inboard ribs? The shim would have to only be along the top holes, since
> the
> bottom holes are lined up.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jae
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Dave Leikam" <DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com> |
Has anyone purchased or do you recommend purchasing the wiring kit from
Stein?
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com> |
Subject: | Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning |
Kevin... Well, I just hope we can help this from happening to anyone else. I
have already ordered a replacement left rear spar. Even the replacement was not
the SAME as my original. With these discrepancies, I think there are plenty of
quality control issues on the rear spars
At this point, I am leaning towards upsizing to 1/8" hole and rivets. However,
what can I do to deal with the edge-distance clearance issue? Does anyone have
any recommendations?
My thoughts are:
1. Just leave it alone. It's just 1/16" under the edge distance clearance for a
1/8" rivet.
2. Add some extra 3/32" holes and rivets in rear spar upper flange. The current
spacing between holes is 26/32". If I put another hole in between existing
holes, is that safe to do?
Thanks again for the suggestions,
Jae
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Belue
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
Jae,
I had the same problem (about 2 years ago). My rear spar flange was off more
than yours, though. Van's sent me another spar and I drilled out all the rivets
and replaced it. It looks like you can use yours - I would drill the holes to
match and use the "oops" rivets if necessary. It's a good idea for everyone to
check the dimensions on the rear spar before rivetting because it is a big job
to remove it.
Kevin Belue
RV-6A flying
RV-10 finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
>
> Has anyone else dealt with this issue? I am on page 16-2 on the Top Wing
> Skins
> section. My left wing lined up perfectly. On the right wing, to my
> surprise, I
> have an alignment problem between the top wing skin and the rear spar.
>
> Here are some photos to illustrate...
>
> Every other hole lines up between the top wing skin and the wing skeleton,
> except for the inboard rear spar holes. The holes are out of alignment and
> gradually come closer into alignment until they are lined up perfectly
> again
> between the 4th and 5th rib, counting the root rib as rib #1.
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4481.html
>
> Broader picture of the general area...
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4482.html
>
> The inboard most hole is the furthest out of line by about 1/16". The rear
> spar
> hole needs to come further aft by 1/16".
>
> I then did a lot of measuring to compare my left wing (perfect) with right
> wing
> (problem). The problem appears to be with the rear spar. The upper flange
> seems
> to taper from 22/32" wide down to 20/32" wide at the inboard edge, which
> would
> account for the 1/16" alignment error in the top skin.
>
> Photo of rear spar top flange on left (correct side):
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4483.html
>
> Photo of rear spar top flange on right (error side):
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4484.html
>
> I spoke with Van's this morning. They made 2 recommendations:
>
> 1. Does the bottom skin line up? Answer: surprisingly enough, YES. It's
> not
> perfect, but will be manageable.
>
> 2. Drill and rivet the misaligned holes with 1/8" rivets.
>
> The problem with this solution is that the new hole will have an
> edge-distance
> problem. I should have 1/4" clearance to the edge, but I will only have
> 3/16"
> clearance to the aft edge on the rear spar. As I work outboard, the edge
> distance issue should get better and better, but still not within spec.
>
> 1/16" would not be a problem anywhere else on the wing, as far as I can
> tell. I
> could have "massaged" things possibly by that amount. However, this
> problem is
> at the wing root and wing walk area, which is heavily reinforced. There is
> no
> "massaging" possible here.
>
> Finally, I could get a new rear-spar, however, that means removing all of
> the
> doublers and tons of AN470AD4-8 and 4-6 rivets!!!
>
> Thus, the warning to other builders, BEFORE riveting the rear spar,
> measure the
> top flange on your rear spar, to make sure it stays even in width. Even
> better,
> try fitting the top skin on before riveting the rear spar.
>
> Can anyone provide any other recommendations?
>
> Another thought is, can I somehow put in a shim between the rear spar and
> the 2
> inboard ribs? The shim would have to only be along the top holes, since
> the
> bottom holes are lined up.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jae
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning |
Hi Jay,=0A =0AI think you will be fine going with 1/8 inch rivets.=0A =0AYo
u would have reduced your allowable bearing stress on the spar by about 30%
due to the shorter edge distance but you will have gained about that much
from the higher bearing area. By the way, 1.5D is not considered short edg
e distance. Many pieces of structure are designed to that edge distance.
I am assuming you are measuring from the center of the hole to the edge of
the part. Additionally depending on the thickness of the parts the spar mi
ght not be the weakest link.=0A =0A =0AThe net area on the spar will be sli
ghtly reduced so the spar will be weaker by the difference in the area of t
he upper flanges which is pretty small. Also the upper spar is usually in
compression which minimizes the effect.=0A =0AI don't think its a problem b
ut you might want to check with Vans anyway. Do make sure though that you
get good holes and no "figure 8s"=0A =0ANiko=0A40188=0A=0A=0A----- Original
Message ----=0AFrom: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>=0ATo: rv10-li
st(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:34:14 PM=0ASubject: RE
: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning=0A=0A=0A--> RV10-List mes
sage posted by: "Jae Chang" =0A=0AKevin... Wel
l, I just hope we can help this from happening to anyone else. I=0Ahave alr
eady ordered a replacement left rear spar. Even the replacement was not=0At
he SAME as my original. With these discrepancies, I think there are plenty
of=0Aquality control issues on the rear spars=0A=0AAt this point, I am lean
ing towards upsizing to 1/8" hole and rivets. However,=0Awhat can I do to d
eal with the edge-distance clearance issue? Does anyone have=0Aany recommen
dations?=0A=0AMy thoughts are:=0A=0A1. Just leave it alone. It's just 1/16"
under the edge distance clearance for a=0A1/8" rivet.=0A=0A2. Add some ext
ra 3/32" holes and rivets in rear spar upper flange. The current=0Aspacing
between holes is 26/32". If I put another hole in between existing=0Aholes,
is that safe to do?=0A=0AThanks again for the suggestions,=0AJae=0A=0A----
-Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com=0A[mail
to:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Belue=0ASent: F
riday, February 23, 2007 10:55 AM=0ATo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject:
Re: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning=0A=0A--> RV10-List mess
age posted by: "Kevin Belue" =0A=0AJae,=0A=0AI had the
same problem (about 2 years ago). My rear spar flange was off more=0Athan
yours, though. Van's sent me another spar and I drilled out all the rivets
=0Aand replaced it. It looks like you can use yours - I would drill the hol
es to=0Amatch and use the "oops" rivets if necessary. It's a good idea for
everyone to=0Acheck the dimensions on the rear spar before rivetting becaus
e it is a big job=0Ato remove it.=0A=0AKevin Belue=0ARV-6A flying=0ARV-10 f
inish=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0AFrom: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronic
s_rv10(at)jline.com>=0ATo: =0ASent: Friday, February
23, 2007 12:18 PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warnin
@jline.com>=0A>=0A> Has anyone else dealt with this issue? I am on page 16-
2 on the Top Wing =0A> Skins=0A> section. My left wing lined up perfectly.
On the right wing, to my =0A> surprise, I=0A> have an alignment problem bet
ween the top wing skin and the rear spar.=0A>=0A> Here are some photos to i
llustrate...=0A>=0A> Every other hole lines up between the top wing skin an
d the wing skeleton,=0A> except for the inboard rear spar holes. The holes
are out of alignment and=0A> gradually come closer into alignment until the
y are lined up perfectly =0A> again=0A> between the 4th and 5th rib, counti
ng the root rib as rib #1.=0A> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wing
kit/photos/IMG_4481.html=0A>=0A> Broader picture of the general area...=0A>
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4482.html=0A>
=0A> The inboard most hole is the furthest out of line by about 1/16". The
rear =0A> spar=0A> hole needs to come further aft by 1/16".=0A>=0A> I then
did a lot of measuring to compare my left wing (perfect) with right =0A> wi
ng=0A> (problem). The problem appears to be with the rear spar. The upper f
lange =0A> seems=0A> to taper from 22/32" wide down to 20/32" wide at the i
nboard edge, which =0A> would=0A> account for the 1/16" alignment error in
the top skin.=0A>=0A> Photo of rear spar top flange on left (correct side):
=0A> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4483.html
=0A>=0A> Photo of rear spar top flange on right (error side):=0A> http://ww
w.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4484.html=0A>=0A> I spoke
with Van's this morning. They made 2 recommendations:=0A>=0A> 1. Does the
bottom skin line up? Answer: surprisingly enough, YES. It's =0A> not=0A> p
erfect, but will be manageable.=0A>=0A> 2. Drill and rivet the misaligned
holes with 1/8" rivets.=0A>=0A> The problem with this solution is that the
new hole will have an =0A> edge-distance=0A> problem. I should have 1/4" cl
earance to the edge, but I will only have =0A> 3/16"=0A> clearance to the a
ft edge on the rear spar. As I work outboard, the edge=0A> distance issue s
hould get better and better, but still not within spec.=0A>=0A> 1/16" would
not be a problem anywhere else on the wing, as far as I can =0A> tell. I
=0A> could have "massaged" things possibly by that amount. However, this
=0A> problem is=0A> at the wing root and wing walk area, which is heavily r
einforced. There is =0A> no=0A> "massaging" possible here.=0A>=0A> Finally,
I could get a new rear-spar, however, that means removing all of =0A> the
=0A> doublers and tons of AN470AD4-8 and 4-6 rivets!!!=0A>=0A> Thus, the wa
rning to other builders, BEFORE riveting the rear spar, =0A> measure the=0A
> top flange on your rear spar, to make sure it stays even in width. Even
=0A> better,=0A> try fitting the top skin on before riveting the rear spar.
=0A>=0A> Can anyone provide any other recommendations?=0A>=0A> Another thou
ght is, can I somehow put in a shim between the rear spar and =0A> the 2=0A
> inboard ribs? The shim would have to only be along the top holes, since
=0A> the=0A> bottom holes are lined up.=0A>=0A> Thanks,=0A>=0A> Jae=0A>=0A>
============
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> |
Subject: | Aileron and flap actuation |
As the other post stated, using UHVM tape or something like that on the Flap
will keep it from scratching the paint. It is good to have a tight fit
there.
On the aileron, if you have not connected the two ailerons together yet,
then you probably won't have to worry, because they don't travel as much
when they are hooked up. If they are already hooked up, then you may have a
problem.
Hope this helps.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric_Kallio
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Aileron and flap actuation
When attaching the ailerons and flaps I am finding that both peices, on both
wings, rub the top skin. The flaps contact just prior to the neutral
position and the ailerons at about 20 degrees trailing edge down. I don't
have pics handy, but I can get some if needed. Is this common, or do I get
to re-work my wings? Don't want to get to far into the aileron actuation
section unitl I clarify this. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
40518 starting the fuel tanks that were put off til last...the joys of
proseal.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'844#96844
--
1:44 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
I will recommend Stein. I have been told he is a great guy, reputable
businessman and can use all the positive cashflow we can forward him as
a result of being victimized by the D2A fiasco. Tim gives a hearty
endorsement and that is enough for me.
John Cox
#40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Wiring
Has anyone purchased or do you recommend purchasing the wiring kit from
Stein?
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning |
From: | "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com> |
Niko... Vans is recommending using oops rivets, so i think that would
definitely mean a weaker structure than using the original callout. Part
of the reason, is because this is a tight access area, because of the
built-up doublers in the way.
Finally, Vans brought up another issue. The 1/16" missing from the upper
flange had to have gone somewhere. Yep, it went into the web of the spar.
There is now quite a gap created above the ribs.
This is the gap in the right (problem side) root rib. That is almost 1/8"
thick. 0.125". The top skin is .032". That means the shim I would have to
use to fill that gap will be 3 to 4 times the thickness of the top skin.
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4485.html
This is another inner rib, all the inner ribs have the same problem, up to
the 5th rib, which is fine.
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4486.html
As a comparison, this is what my left root rib looks like - what it should
be.
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4487.html
I am going to have to think about this over the weekend. Now, i am leaning
towards replacement.
Any opinions on what others would do?
That hissing sound i hear is the sound of building momentum leaking away
again!
Jae
> Hi Jay,
>
> I think you will be fine going with 1/8 inch rivets.
>
> You would have reduced your allowable bearing stress on the spar by about
> 30% due to the shorter edge distance but you will have gained about that
> much from the higher bearing area. By the way, 1.5D is not considered
> short edge distance. Many pieces of structure are designed to that edge
> distance. I am assuming you are measuring from the center of the hole to
> the edge of the part. Additionally depending on the thickness of the
> parts the spar might not be the weakest link.
>
>
> The net area on the spar will be slightly reduced so the spar will be
> weaker by the difference in the area of the upper flanges which is pretty
> small. Also the upper spar is usually in compression which minimizes the
> effect.
>
> I don't think its a problem but you might want to check with Vans anyway.
> Do make sure though that you get good holes and no "figure 8s"
>
> Niko
> 40188
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:34:14 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
>
>
> Kevin... Well, I just hope we can help this from happening to anyone else.
> I
> have already ordered a replacement left rear spar. Even the replacement
> was not
> the SAME as my original. With these discrepancies, I think there are
> plenty of
> quality control issues on the rear spars
>
> At this point, I am leaning towards upsizing to 1/8" hole and rivets.
> However,
> what can I do to deal with the edge-distance clearance issue? Does anyone
> have
> any recommendations?
>
> My thoughts are:
>
> 1. Just leave it alone. It's just 1/16" under the edge distance clearance
> for a
> 1/8" rivet.
>
> 2. Add some extra 3/32" holes and rivets in rear spar upper flange. The
> current
> spacing between holes is 26/32". If I put another hole in between existing
> holes, is that safe to do?
>
> Thanks again for the suggestions,
> Jae
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Belue
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:55 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
>
>
> Jae,
>
> I had the same problem (about 2 years ago). My rear spar flange was off
> more
> than yours, though. Van's sent me another spar and I drilled out all the
> rivets
> and replaced it. It looks like you can use yours - I would drill the holes
> to
> match and use the "oops" rivets if necessary. It's a good idea for
> everyone to
> check the dimensions on the rear spar before rivetting because it is a big
> job
> to remove it.
>
> Kevin Belue
> RV-6A flying
> RV-10 finish
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:18 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: Rear spar alignment flaw and Warning
>
>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone else dealt with this issue? I am on page 16-2 on the Top Wing
>> Skins
>> section. My left wing lined up perfectly. On the right wing, to my
>> surprise, I
>> have an alignment problem between the top wing skin and the rear spar.
>>
>> Here are some photos to illustrate...
>>
>> Every other hole lines up between the top wing skin and the wing
>> skeleton,
>> except for the inboard rear spar holes. The holes are out of alignment
>> and
>> gradually come closer into alignment until they are lined up perfectly
>> again
>> between the 4th and 5th rib, counting the root rib as rib #1.
>> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4481.html
>>
>> Broader picture of the general area...
>> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4482.html
>>
>> The inboard most hole is the furthest out of line by about 1/16". The
>> rear
>> spar
>> hole needs to come further aft by 1/16".
>>
>> I then did a lot of measuring to compare my left wing (perfect) with
>> right
>> wing
>> (problem). The problem appears to be with the rear spar. The upper
>> flange
>> seems
>> to taper from 22/32" wide down to 20/32" wide at the inboard edge, which
>> would
>> account for the 1/16" alignment error in the top skin.
>>
>> Photo of rear spar top flange on left (correct side):
>> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4483.html
>>
>> Photo of rear spar top flange on right (error side):
>> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4484.html
>>
>> I spoke with Van's this morning. They made 2 recommendations:
>>
>> 1. Does the bottom skin line up? Answer: surprisingly enough, YES. It's
>> not
>> perfect, but will be manageable.
>>
>> 2. Drill and rivet the misaligned holes with 1/8" rivets.
>>
>> The problem with this solution is that the new hole will have an
>> edge-distance
>> problem. I should have 1/4" clearance to the edge, but I will only have
>> 3/16"
>> clearance to the aft edge on the rear spar. As I work outboard, the edge
>> distance issue should get better and better, but still not within spec.
>>
>> 1/16" would not be a problem anywhere else on the wing, as far as I can
>> tell. I
>> could have "massaged" things possibly by that amount. However, this
>> problem is
>> at the wing root and wing walk area, which is heavily reinforced. There
>> is
>> no
>> "massaging" possible here.
>>
>> Finally, I could get a new rear-spar, however, that means removing all
>> of
>> the
>> doublers and tons of AN470AD4-8 and 4-6 rivets!!!
>>
>> Thus, the warning to other builders, BEFORE riveting the rear spar,
>> measure the
>> top flange on your rear spar, to make sure it stays even in width. Even
>> better,
>> try fitting the top skin on before riveting the rear spar.
>>
>> Can anyone provide any other recommendations?
>>
>> Another thought is, can I somehow put in a shim between the rear spar
>> and
>> the 2
>> inboard ribs? The shim would have to only be along the top holes, since
>> the
>> bottom holes are lined up.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jae
>>
>>============
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | Weather? for- i39, Richmond Madison Flyin Feb. 24th. is ON |
What's the weather look like there?
Who's going?
Hasn't been much e-traffic this on The Kickoff ...............
Last 3 years were great!
ERic--
RV-10 N104EP
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
I have been working with Stein for over a year now, and I can say
without a doubt he is an honest and forthright vendor, which in this day
and age is a rarity. I have been one of the ones bit by the Direct2
fiasco, and Stein has been a pleasure to deal with during a difficult
time. He has been in the middle of a bad situation, and has done
everything in his power to make it right. For a small shop that is
saying allot, Lancair customers got the shaft and Steins customers got
taken care of.
I would recommend Stein and his group to anyone needing his services.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:59 PM
To: matronics
Subject: RV10-List: Wiring
Has anyone purchased or do you recommend purchasing the wiring
kit from Stein?
Dave Leikam
40496
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "ddddsp1(at)juno.com" <ddddsp1(at)juno.com> |
STEIN all the way!!!!! He is an awesome guy to work with. BTW S
tein, my dimmer had a short in it and the ICOM does not have DIMMER cap
ability anyway. I hooked them all direct to power and they worked great
!
DEAN 40449
YUGO Avionics working great!
________________________________________________________________________
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om/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752
STEIN all the way!!!!!  
; He is an awesome guy to work with. BTW Stein, my dim
mer had a short in it and the ICOM does not have DIMMER capability anywa
y. I hooked them all direct to power and they worked great!
DEAN 40449
YUGO Avionics working great!
______________________
__________________________________________________
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