RV10-Archive.digest.vol-ev
July 22, 2009 - August 09, 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
I was not suggesting that the 10 routinely be operated above the Van's
suggested gross of 2700. It is certainly possible to operate the aircraft
with considerable additional fuel on board, subject to CG, weight and
structural considerations. I have set the gross for my 10 at 2800 pounds;
primarily because I never want , in case of incident, to argue with FAA or
insurance company, about being over gross. Having on several occasions
landed a Cessna in IMC carrying a load of ice, I know it is possible to
encounter conditions with payloads which are not workable. My point is that
with proper planning and good judgment there are many options in the safe
use of these aircraft. If one plans ahead, the versatility can be
dramatically improved without significant penalty
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Aux fuel tanks
The Alaskan gross wt rule is NOT available to anyone, anytime. It requires
FSDO approval, generally for commercial freight, fuel and fire fighting
operations. It also has consequences. A Beech 1900, IIRC crashed in Homer, a
little over gross, with a load of ice picked up on approach.
It is one thing to use for tankering fuel, like trans-oceanic flight where
there is no intent to land overgross, and quite another to both takeoff and
land overgross. One also does not know how much an acceptable flight
envelope exists above the published forward and aft limits, how much
narrower the range might be. Yes, you can experiment with your experimental,
declare a higher gross than Van's recommends and play test pilot.
Unfortunately, one -10 has already been lost, along with the builder, by
making hasty changes to what was already a non-standard variant. We really
need to minimize risks, lest our favorite aircraft become uninsurable.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 3:29 PM, David McNeill wrote:
> If you must have extra fuel and you are SB wings, then the obvious
> solution is to enlargethe main tanks by moving the outboard bulkhead
> out a bay or two. The CG won't shift and the wing will place less
> bending moment on the spar and center carry through. Even certified
> aircraft can be successfully flown and landed 10% over gross given the
> FAAs own rules for Alaska operations. My understanding is that Alaska
> operations will almost always have lower than standard temperatures
> and therefore more power available to lift the load. The 10 is not
> power limited. My 10 lifted off KPRC at 5000 MSL @ 80F in 1500 ft
> ground roll at weight of 2750. Distance was calculated by the tower staff.
> ________________________________
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and
> Susie
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:29 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Aux fuel tanks
>
> Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour trip in outback Australia.
> Most of the time we were fine with fuel but as another has pointed out
> fuel in some areas can be extremely expensive. An extra hour range
> would be great here. The option of filling further on would be great.
> I have spoken to an engineer at Vans regarding making the the outer
> bay of wing also fuel and his response was like other RV's it actually
> strengthens the wing however other areas have to be considered like
> Max weight. He would not put anything on paper.
> An extra hour would be good but I don't know about an extra 60 gallons
> unless you few at gross weight or under but you know what people would do!
> With two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not want to fly over gross.
> So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of fuel if I were to build again
> for out back flying.
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Gurley
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:06 AM
> Subject: RV10-List: Aux fuel tanks
>
> It has been a few years now that some of you have been flying. Has
> anyone installed or wish they have installed aux fuel tanks. I am
> currently planning the items to be installed my wings and was
> wondering what the consensus was.
>
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
>
> Dick Gurley
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni
> cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
> c
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni
> cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
> c
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilotdds(at)aol.com |
Any suggestions for an overnight,which is preferable for a 10 enroute to osh-OGD
or SLC ?
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
This is the coolest I remember at this time of year in recent history. We
actually had a high in the 60's last weekend and they are forecasting it to drop
back into the 70's again after today with lows in the 50's. Haven't had rain in
around 3 weeks until the last couple days so the ground is like concrete. Of
course the weather gods have noticed that Airventure is starting up so all bets
are off for the next 12 days. They are forecasting over 2 inches of rain
tonight about 60 miles NW of OSH and around .5" to 1" for around here. I've
been sitting in my workshop watching it get steadily darker here.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
whats the weather like? robert
On Jul 20, 2009, at 9:38 PM, bcondrey wrote:
> >
>
> For those wondering about attendance, from what we can see in Camp
> Scholler it looks like there are more people here than at this time
> last year.
>
> Weather conditions have been very dry here - grass is long and a
> little crunchy. Fortunately, Michael Sausen has again dropped off a
> lawn mower for use.
>
> WiFi appears to be working great for me so far. Others have
> reported issues so we'll just have to see.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254043#254043
>
>
load, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
Ogden is nice and less busy. There is a nice FBO on the south side
called Kemp Jet Services. The manager's name is Russ. They also have
hangar space and a nice deli/restaurant inside. Ogden city is not as
nice as SLC in my opinion. thirty to forty minute drive to downtown
SLC.
When are you coming out?
----- Original Message -----
From: pilotdds(at)aol.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: OGD or SLC
Any suggestions for an overnight,which is preferable for a 10 enroute
to osh-OGD or SLC ?
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
This is the coolest I remember at this time of year in recent history.
We
actually had a high in the 60's last weekend and they are forecasting it
to drop
back into the 70's again after today with lows in the 50's. Haven't had
rain in
around 3 weeks until the last couple days so the ground is like
concrete. Of
course the weather gods have noticed that Airventure is starting up so
all bets
are off for the next 12 days. They are forecasting over 2 inches of
rain
tonight about 60 miles NW of OSH and around .5" to 1" for around here.
I've
been sitting in my workshop watching it get steadily darker here.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
whats the weather like? robert
On Jul 20, 2009, at 9:38 PM, bcondrey wrote:
>
>
> For those wondering about attendance, from what we can see in Camp
> Scholler it looks like there are more people here than at this time
> last year.
>
> Weather conditions have been very dry here - grass is long and a
> little crunchy. Fortunately, Michael Sausen has again dropped off a
> lawn mower for use.
>
> WiFi appears to be working great for me so far. Others have
> reported issues so we'll just have to see.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254043#254043
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Strasnuts" <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
If you fly into SLC I will drag you out to my shop to buck rivits.
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 SB Fuselage
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254480#254480
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Barnes" <rickbarnes(at)highlanddental.com> |
Michael,
When are you coming through the area? We are at Bountiful Skypark (KBTF).
It's between Ogden and SLC. Easy in and out. We might have a place for you
to stay at the airport. Let us know.
Rick
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: OGD or SLC
Any suggestions for an overnight,which is preferable for a 10 enroute to
osh-OGD or SLC ?
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
This is the coolest I remember at this time of year in recent history. We
actually had a high in the 60's last weekend and they are forecasting it to
drop
back into the 70's again after today with lows in the 50's. Haven't had
rain in
around 3 weeks until the last couple days so the ground is like concrete.
Of
course the weather gods have noticed that Airventure is starting up so all
bets
are off for the next 12 days. They are forecasting over 2 inches of rain
tonight about 60 miles NW of OSH and around .5" to 1" for around here. I've
been sitting in my workshop watching it get steadily darker here.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
]
On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
whats the weather like? robert
On Jul 20, 2009, at 9:38 PM, bcondrey wrote:
> >
>
> For those wondering about attendance, from what we can see in Camp
> Scholler it looks like there are more people here than at this time
> last year.
>
> Weather conditions have been very dry here - grass is long and a
> little crunchy. Fortunately, Michael Sausen has again dropped off a
> lawn mower for use.
>
> WiFi appears to be working great for me so far. Others have
> reported issues so we'll just have to see.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254043#254043
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Strasnuts" <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
Section 28-2 step 2.
What are they talking about?????
The nutplates are already installed on the fwd fuselage ribs. The angles have
nutplates installed in the next few steps.
The plans tell me to Machine Cntrsnk the inside of the fwd fuse ribs for a 426ad3
rivet. There are no holes for this??? The angle attaches using 30 size holes.
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 SB Fuselage
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254487#254487
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I
though that this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not
using all their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody
also had rooms in a house. Also someone suggested a good place for motor
home rentals. My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
BTF would be my choice if lodging is acceptable, and you don't mind
making your approach over refinery. Ogden is nice.
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Richard
Barnes wrote:
> Michael,
>
>
> When are you coming through the area? We are at Bountiful Skypark (KBTF).
> Its between Ogden and SLC. Easy in and out. We might have a place for
> you to stay at the airport. Let us know.
>
>
> Rick
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:08 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: OGD or SLC
>
>
> Any suggestions for an overnight,which is preferable for a 10 enroute to
> osh-OGD or SLC ?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34 am
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
>
>
>
>
>
> This is the coolest I remember at this time of year in recent history. We
>
> actually had a high in the 60's last weekend and they are forecasting it to
> drop
>
> back into the 70's again after today with lows in the 50's. Haven't had
> rain in
>
> around 3 weeks until the last couple days so the ground is like concrete.
> Of
>
> course the weather gods have noticed that Airventure is starting up so all
> bets
>
> are off for the next 12 days. They are forecasting over 2 inches of rain
>
> tonight about 60 miles NW of OSH and around .5" to 1" for around here. I've
>
> been sitting in my workshop watching it get steadily darker here.
>
>
> Michael
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]
>
> On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:50 AM
>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH RV-10 HQ Open For Business!
>
>
> whats the weather like? robert
>
> On Jul 20, 2009, at 9:38 PM, bcondrey wrote:
>
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> For those wondering about attendance, from what we can see in Camp
>
>> Scholler it looks like there are more people here than at this time
>
>> last year.
>
>>
>
>> Weather conditions have been very dry here - grass is long and a
>
>> little crunchy. Fortunately, Michael Sausen has again dropped off a
>
>> lawn mower for use.
>
>>
>
>> WiFi appears to be working great for me so far. Others have
>
>> reported issues so we'll just have to see.
>
>>
>
>> Bob
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Read this topic online here:
>
>>
>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254043#254043
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Dave,
A lot of the people camping at OSH are already on their way - give me a call and
I can run through the info that I've got and give you direct contact info.
402 651 0402
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254516#254516
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilotdds(at)aol.com |
We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
-----Original Message-----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
Subject: RV10-List: OSH
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I though that
this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not using?all
their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody also had rooms
in a house. Also someone suggested? a good place for motor home rentals.
My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> |
I always RON at Brigham City (BMC) north of SLC. Airport is just north of
town, really nice people, courtesy car, nearby motels but main attraction
for me is Maddox restaurant on south edge of town. Great steaks.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol(at)xtra.co.nz> |
We talked at length with Vans on this issue. From memory, the wing has
been designed to have some flex in it, outboard of the main tanks.
While you can replace the leading edge further outboard with another
tank, it stops that part of the wing from flexing. This then gives
rise to a hinge point between the two tanks and creates point loads /
stresses that the spar was not designed for at a center point in the
wing. That's not to say it can't be done, but they do not advise it.
Short term and low turbulence it would probably be ok. Long term.......
It is not often that you need to carry 4 people & a whole pile of
extra fuel. Vans recommendation to me was tip tanks & a ferry tank.
The plane is designed for those loads. You can put a Turtlepac 66 Gal
ferry tank, sitting as close to the front seats as possible. It leaves
little room for baggage, but it gives you 60+66 gal = 126 gal @ 8.5
gph LOP = nearly 15 hours. How big is your bladder??
The other thing to remember is that for most of your flying you will
probably be carrying around the extra weight for no gain. A removable
ferry tank is probably the best way to go.
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Mills" <millstees(at)ameritech.net> |
If they don't want it, I'll take it.
Steve Mills RV-10
630-308-7476
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH
We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
-----Original Message-----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
Subject: RV10-List: OSH
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I
though that this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not
using all their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody
also had rooms in a house. Also someone suggested a good place for motor
home rentals. My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: plan confusion |
| From: | "Strasnuts" <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
Jesse, I finally figures it out. Van's changed the fuel valve and forgot to change
a lot of pages in the manual. I looked far enough ahead in section 36 to
show the proper holes. There are NO nutplates now that connect the angle to
the fwd fuselage ribs.
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
RV-10 SB Fuselage
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254526#254526
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
go ahead , my wife will stay in house if we come.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Mills
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: OSH
If they don't want it, I'll take it.
Steve Mills RV-10
630-308-7476
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH
We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
-----Original Message-----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
Subject: RV10-List: OSH
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I
though that this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not
using all their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody
also had rooms in a house. Also someone suggested a good place for motor
home rentals. My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Thanks. My wife has changed her mind and will stay in house if we come.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH
We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
-----Original Message-----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
Subject: RV10-List: OSH
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I
though that this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not
using all their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody
also had rooms in a house. Also someone suggested a good place for motor
home rentals. My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: plan confusion |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
At least you are working on that section. Some of us are still on
quick build hold. ;-(
Kelly
40866
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Strasnuts wrote:
>
> Jesse, I finally figures it out. Van's changed the fuel valve and forgot to change
a lot of pages in the manual. I looked far enough ahead in section 36 to
show the proper holes. There are NO nutplates now that connect the angle to the
fwd fuselage ribs.
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Cust. #40936
> RV-10 SB Fuselage
> N801VR reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254526#254526
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilotdds(at)aol.com |
Its yours Steve-Jim 728DD
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Mills <millstees(at)ameritech.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 2:42 pm
Subject: RE: RV10-List: OSH
If they don't want it, I'll take it.
?
Steve Mills RV-10
630-308-7476
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH
We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
-----Original Message-----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
Subject: RV10-List: OSH
The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I though that
this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10 headquarters not using?all
their nights if they consider camping. I seem to remember somebody also had rooms
in a house. Also someone suggested? a good place for motor home rentals.
My dates there are flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com> |
I'll be leaving Wednesday afternoon.
Anyone want the remainder call me.
Dave Lammers
319-551-2832
Steve Mills wrote:
> If they don't want it, I'll take it.
>
> Steve Mills RV-10
> 630-308-7476
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *pilotdds(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:17 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: OSH
>
> We will be leaving thurs morning.Do you want remainder of the week?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2009 11:29 am
> Subject: RV10-List: OSH
>
> The wife and kids suggest that they would like to come to OSH (after I
> though that this year, I would not attend). Anybody in RV10
> headquarters not using all their nights if they consider camping. I
> seem to remember somebody also had rooms in a house. Also someone
> suggested a good place for motor home rentals. My dates there are
> flexible, any 2 or 3 days.
> *
>
>
> *
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
Depending on where you are coming from and what route you are taking, BMC is
a great choice if want to avoid the Class B around SLC. You can avoid it
getting into Ogden....little bit harder for Bountiful and SLC #2. I am out
of Ogden and think it is great....sorry I don't have any extra hanger space
to offer....Unless you are coming through in the next day or so. I am in
Las Vegas and my hanger is empty.....
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: OGD or SLC
I always RON at Brigham City (BMC) north of SLC. Airport is just north of
town, really nice people, courtesy car, nearby motels but main attraction
for me is Maddox restaurant on south edge of town. Great steaks.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fritzsche (Building)" <fritzsch(at)eskimo.com> |
If my memory is correct, some of the early aircraft were found to be
flaming coffins in a crash due to fuel tanks located right behind the
pilot rupturing. I would be very concerned about putting a fuel tank in
the baggage compartment for that reason. In a crash you could suddenly
find yourself in a gasoline shower with the slightest spark turning the
cockpit into an inferno.
Dave
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Fritzsche
40813
Puyallup, WA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aux Fuel Tanks |
| From: | William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> |
This opinion, and memory, relies heavily on
truthiness<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness>.
The fact is that any impact sufficient to rupture an in cabin tank is most
likely not survivable by the occupants due to blunt force trauma. Secondly,
impact sufficient to rupture a cabin tank will also have caused more damage
to the wing tanks which is only a few inches from the cabin. Lastly there
are many current certified aircraft (as well as the RV-12) that have
fuselage fuel tanks or STCs for fuselage fuel tanks. There is an STC for
a permanent baggage area fuel tank for the Cardinal RG that I currently
fly. Most commercial airlines have wing center tanks under the cabin.
In a past RVAtor article, Van's (Ken Krueger) has stated if builders must
add additional tanks, they would prefer fuselage based tanks, rather than
additional wing tanks. Your concern regarding a "gasoline shower" is only
valid if you are worried about having an "excellent kadabra."
William Curtis
40237
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Dave Fritzsche (Building) <
fritzsch(at)eskimo.com> wrote:
> fritzsch(at)eskimo.com>
>
> If my memory is correct, some of the early aircraft were found to be
> flaming coffins in a crash due to fuel tanks located right behind the pilot
> rupturing. I would be very concerned about putting a fuel tank in the
> baggage compartment for that reason. In a crash you could suddenly find
> yourself in a gasoline shower with the slightest spark turning the cockpit
> into an inferno.
> Dave
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dave Fritzsche
> 40813
> Puyallup, WA
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Every year at this time, attendees begin looking for cheapest fuel and
cheap oil for their long pilgrimage to/from Aviation Mecca. Some have
mentioned offline about Sky geeks.
Check out www.oil-store.com Cheaper than the geeks and you can get it
in the easier to transport and pour 1 gal jugs. Also delivered right to
your door.
Cheers,
[John C] forwarded from another of my friends.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
The RV-12 has just received FAA certification as a Light Sport and
complete kits are now being readied for shipment to those who have
passion for such things. Just a note before shifting entirely into
RV-10 issues for OSH.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Fritzsche (Building)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Aux Fuel Tanks
If my memory is correct, some of the early aircraft were found to be
flaming coffins in a crash due to fuel tanks located right behind the
pilot rupturing. I would be very concerned about putting a fuel tank in
the baggage compartment for that reason. In a crash you could suddenly
find yourself in a gasoline shower with the slightest spark turning the
cockpit into an inferno.
Dave
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Fritzsche
40813
Puyallup, WA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Saw a white and red RV-10 taxi in on the OSH365 web cam a few minutes
ago. Kind of neat, although not much traffic right now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
We departed O22 in the Sierra foothills this morning at 0530, made one stop
in Brigham City, UT for gas, and are now overnighting in Aberdeen. We
should be in tomorrow before noon.
1076 miles in 10 hours...cool.
--
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Dave,
I'd say the numbers are disappointing -- unless you spent a fair amount of time
on the ground at the fuel stop.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254638#254638
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
Oh yeah, two hour time difference...8 hours...and I was happy with 10!
Dave
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I'd say the numbers are disappointing -- unless you spent a fair amount of
> time on the ground at the fuel stop.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254638#254638
>
>
--
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IFR route to OSH from Southeast |
| From: | William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> |
If IFR, you can file whatever you want but it is probably easier to just put
Direct KOSH in your flight plan because they are going to give you what they
want anyhow. Last time I went in IFR from the East, they had everyone lined
up going PMM MKG FAK KOSH and even had me and 3 other planes in a hold at 30
miles on the 296 radial of the MKG VOR-yes this is over the lake. Three
planes 1,000 feet apart over the lake in a hold. Weather was IMC and they
needed to space traffic. Was uneventful however.
If you go VFR, suggest under the Class B (< 3000 FT.) up the Chicago lake
coast--CGT NILES LAIRD HEDOT RIPON FISKE KOSH. This can get busy,
especially if later in the week as other planes are returning from OSH, but
it also offers a nice view of the Chicago skyline.
William
40237
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Dave Leikam wrote:
>
> Thunderbirds are in Milwaukee also.
>
> Dave Leikam
> RV-10 #40496
> N89DA
> Muskego, WI
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linn Walters" <
> pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR route to OSH from Southeast
>
>
>>
>> John, I fly out over the lake .... (all three times) ..... but check the
>> notams ..... Thunderbirds are at Chicago.
>> Linn
>>
>> John Testement wrote:
>>
>>> I am planning my flight from VA and deciding whether to go West of
>>> Chicago airspace (way out of the way) or fly over the lake. If anyone has
>>> experience or advice on the best route to OSH from the Southeast, your
>>> comments would be welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>> John Testement
>>>
>>> N311RV
>>>
>>> Richmond, VA
>>>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> |
Yeah, that's only about 100 Kts. I made it from eastern PA to New Orleans
(~960nm) in my 145kt Cardinal in about 7 hours flying time.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I'd say the numbers are disappointing -- unless you spent a fair amount of
> time on the ground at the fuel stop.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254638#254638
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Anybody seen any deals on this at OSH; I presume they have a booth.
http://www.navworx.com/ads600-displays.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Navworx ADS600 |
They have a booth at OSH. I didn't hear well enough if it was hangar
B or D that they were in, so you'll have to check the guide, but
they're here.
Tim
On Jul 25, 2009, at 12:27 PM, "David McNeill" wrote:
> Anybody seen any deals on this at OSH; I presume they have a booth.
> http://www.navworx.com/ads600-displays.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
but I am not; can someone on their travels visit the booth for any specials?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Navworx ADS600
They have a booth at OSH. I didn't hear well enough if it was hangar B or D
that they were in, so you'll have to check the guide, but they're here.
Tim
On Jul 25, 2009, at 12:27 PM, "David McNeill" wrote:
Anybody seen any deals on this at OSH; I presume they have a booth.
<http://www.navworx.com/ads600-displays.html>
http://www.navworx.com/ads600-displays.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | More fun with rebuilt engines |
| From: | "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> |
I attempted to unbugger a couple of spark plug holes on my rebuilt engine (not
yet run) using a chip chaser. It's obvious that a couple of holes need new heli-coils
as the chip chaser wouldn't go in easily and some of the heli-coil came
out.
Any advice on how to proceed? I've not done this sort of thing before and like
most things I'm sure it's not a big deal the second time around.
There's a Lyco SB 1043A on heli-coil replacement, but I haven't been able to find
it using internet search.
This link has a couple of repair kit options (some are expen$sive). http://www.skygeek.com/heli-coil-screw-thread-inserts.html
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254807#254807
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More fun with rebuilt engines |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
I think most chip chasers are generally not recommended for this use. For next
time, Snap-On (who else?) makes a very special tool for cleaning out spark plug
helicoils. You turn an internal bolt and the whole thing collapses inwards.
You can then insert it into the cylinder, turn the bolt the other way and expand
it back out, then clean the threads from inside to the outside as you screw
it out. This works when it's the outside of the hole that's the problem (as from
cross threading and forcing plugs in). It also carries the gunk out of the
cylinder, instead of into it.
I've never removed a helicoil myself, but cylinder shops do this all the time.
And yes, there are special insertion tools for putting in new ones. The one thing
I do know is that when you're all done and break off the insertion tang, you
want to be sure there is no sharp point left on the inside, where it could
act as a glow plug and cause pre-ignition.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254819#254819
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | RV10 HQ in full swing |
For all you folks who are around OSH, come on by the HQ! The food is
fantastic...thanks to Bog, Gary, and crew. For those missing
out...what the heck are you missing this for!?!?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "WMD" <wdeviny(at)kcbx.net> |
As one of the new guys - this would be a great opportunity for me to meet the people
behind the screen names on the list :) .
Won't be getting in until next Thursday but will try to stop by either Thursday
or Friday evening.
Regards,
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254840#254840
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Expect another event Fri evening!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sun Jul 26 19:16:16 2009
Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
As one of the new guys - this would be a great opportunity for me to meet the people
behind the screen names on the list :) .
Won't be getting in until next Thursday but will try to stop by either Thursday
or Friday evening.
Regards,
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254840#254840
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
I changed my mind and will be there Thursday morning through Saturday air
show.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US
SSA)
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
-->
Expect another event Fri evening!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun Jul 26 19:16:16 2009
Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
As one of the new guys - this would be a great opportunity for me to meet
the people behind the screen names on the list :) .
Won't be getting in until next Thursday but will try to stop by either
Thursday or Friday evening.
Regards,
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254840#254840
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Michael Wellenzohn" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> |
I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4 days
ago).
Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily bring from
Switzerland for you guys?
Cheers
Michael & Irene
wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats. I imagine
you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4 days
ago).
Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily bring from
Switzerland for you guys?
Cheers
Michael & Irene
wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
Is the shuttle service from the main display area to Camp Scholler
frequent? Where are most of the 10s parked?
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>
> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats. I imagine
you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
>
> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4 days
ago).
> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily bring
from Switzerland for you guys?
>
> Cheers
> Michael & Irene
>
> wellenzohn.net
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Regular shuttles run constantly. Yellow shuttle stops at Theater in the Woods.
From there it's a 5 minute walk to our HQ.
The -10s are parked just west of the red shuttle warbird stop.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon Jul 27 05:31:36 2009
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
Is the shuttle service from the main display area to Camp Scholler
frequent? Where are most of the 10s parked?
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>
> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats. I imagine
you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
>
> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4 days
ago).
> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily bring
from Switzerland for you guys?
>
> Cheers
> Michael & Irene
>
> wellenzohn.net
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
You guys are killing us.....- at least those of us that can't make it thi
s year....- My wife and I went last year for our first times.... flew com
mercially.... and I think there were around 110 RV10's flying... now one ye
ar later, I think the number is around 220.- So depending on how you work
the numbers we'll either add another 110, or double the 220.... at any rat
e I suspect we'll have at least-over 300 flying 10's by next years Osh.
- Count us in for next year for sure.
Don & Kim McDonald
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wro
te:
From: Condrey, Bob (US SSA) <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 3:55 AM
stems.com>
Absolutely?- We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats.-
I imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic
s.com>
Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4 d
ays ago).
Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily bri
ng from Switzerland for you guys?
Cheers
Michael & Irene
wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
RV10 HQ. Same place as last year? Have an IFR in for 12z Thursday. Where are
the 10s parking? Easy out for Sat evening?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
Is the shuttle service from the main display area to Camp Scholler frequent?
Where are most of the 10s parked?
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> -->
>
> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats. I
imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
> -->
>
> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4
days ago).
> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily
bring from Switzerland for you guys?
>
> Cheers
> Michael & Irene
>
> wellenzohn.net
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
should i fly in to osh instead of fond du lac? will be arriving after
5 pm. robert
On Jul 27, 2009, at 8:15 AM, David McNeill wrote:
>
> RV10 HQ. Same place as last year? Have an IFR in for 12z Thursday.
> Where are
> the 10s parking? Easy out for Sat evening?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
> McMullen
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 5:32 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
>
> Is the shuttle service from the main display area to Camp Scholler
> frequent?
> Where are most of the 10s parked?
>
> Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>> -->
>>
>> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of
>> seats. I
> imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
>> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>>
>> -->
>>
>> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh
>> for her).
>> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her
>> foot 4
> days ago).
>> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can
>> easily
> bring from Switzerland for you guys?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Michael & Irene
>>
>> wellenzohn.net
>>
>> --------
>> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
>> #511
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
i am flying in wednesday to fond du lac. will stay through saturday.
am i invited to the festivities? i am a rookie at this. robert
brunkenhoefer n661G rv10 165 hrs.flying and loving every minute of it
On Jul 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Don McDonald wrote:
> You guys are killing us..... at least those of us that can't make
> it this year.... My wife and I went last year for our first
> times.... flew commercially.... and I think there were around 110
> RV10's flying... now one year later, I think the number is around
> 220. So depending on how you work the numbers we'll either add
> another 110, or double the 220.... at any rate I suspect we'll have
> at least over 300 flying 10's by next years Osh. Count us in for
> next year for sure.
> Don & Kim McDonald
>
> --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Condrey, Bob (US SSA)
> wrote:
>
> From: Condrey, Bob (US SSA) <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 3:55 AM
>
> >
>
> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of
> seats. I imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
> >
>
> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for
> her).
> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her
> foot 4 days ago).
> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can
> easily bring from Switzerland for you guys?
>
> Cheers
> Michael & Irene
>
> wellenzohn.net
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
> #511
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=25t; http://www.matronics.com/contri===============
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Same location for HQ - 55th and Lindbergh.
-10s are parked just west and north across the taxiway relative to prior years.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon Jul 27 06:15:09 2009
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
RV10 HQ. Same place as last year? Have an IFR in for 12z Thursday. Where are
the 10s parking? Easy out for Sat evening?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
Is the shuttle service from the main display area to Camp Scholler frequent?
Where are most of the 10s parked?
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> -->
>
> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of seats. I
imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
> -->
>
> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh for her).
> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her foot 4
days ago).
> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can easily
bring from Switzerland for you guys?
>
> Cheers
> Michael & Irene
>
> wellenzohn.net
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254861#254861
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
Bob, if i fly i to osh instead of fld will i be directed to park near
you . robert
On Jul 27, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> Yep, stop by anytime. All -10 flyers, builders and "almost" builders
> welcome.
>
> Bob
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Mon Jul 27 07:22:19 2009
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>
> i am flying in wednesday to fond du lac. will stay through saturday.
> am i invited to the festivities? i am a rookie at this. robert
> brunkenhoefer n661G rv10 165 hrs.flying and loving every minute of it
> On Jul 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Don McDonald wrote:
>
>> You guys are killing us..... at least those of us that can't make
>> it this year.... My wife and I went last year for our first
>> times.... flew commercially.... and I think there were around 110
>> RV10's flying... now one year later, I think the number is around
>> 220. So depending on how you work the numbers we'll either add
>> another 110, or double the 220.... at any rate I suspect we'll have
>> at least over 300 flying 10's by next years Osh. Count us in for
>> next year for sure.
>> Don & Kim McDonald
>>
>> --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) > > wrote:
>>
>> From: Condrey, Bob (US SSA) <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 3:55 AM
>>
>> >
>>
>> Absolutely? We're up to 800 sq ft of shade and have plenty of
>> seats. I imagine you'd also find that the chocolate would be a hit.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> >
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Sun Jul 26 23:55:24 2009
>> Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10 HQ in full swing
>>
>> >
>>
>> I'll be there from Thursday onwards with my wife (first time Osh
>> for her).
>> Would it be OK to find some rest in the HQ since my wife broke her
>> foot 4 days ago).
>> Is there any need for Swiss chocolate or other stuff which I can
>> easily bring from Switzerland for you guys?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Michael & Irene
>>
>> wellenzohn.net
>>
>> --------
>> RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring)
>> #511
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=25t; http://www.matronics.com/contri===============
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flight Test - cart before horse? |
| From: | "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend(at)aurora.aero> |
Maybe I'm getting the cart before the horse, but did anyone make
something like kneeboard-size flight test cards for your test period?
Can I borrow your format, if yes?
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025
tdt(at)aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
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PT09PQ0KCQ0KCQ0KDQo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com> |
What sucks is that I'm a sales guy and this is the last week of our
fiscal quarter. So yeah, I'm working. I've got 1 more transaction that
I'm tracking and if I can get it in early this week, I'm buying the next
airline ticket to Chicago or Milwaukee or someplace close.
If I get to head that way, I'll send an e-mail and let you know.
I plan on traveling with a 1 man tent, a few days of clothes, sunscreen,
toiletries, and rain gear all stuffed in a backpack.
Hopefully things will work out and I can get there. :)
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim(at)MyRV10.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:47 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 HQ in full swing
For all you folks who are around OSH, come on by the HQ! The food is
fantastic...thanks to Bog, Gary, and crew. For those missing out...what
the heck are you missing this for!?!?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Flight Test - cart before horse? |
Tim,
In my opinion you can't start thinking about the first flight too early,
mostly because it's fun and motivating. There's also the element that
you'll be better prepared. Anyway, I've attached the flight test cards that
I received as a First Flight Advisor. If you have someone that is currently
an advisor nearby you might be able to get something more recent as my info
is somewhat dated. I also attached some gouge I found for an RV-6 just to
get some thoughts going.
Good luck and enjoy planning that first flight,
Marcus
40286
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dawson-Townsend,Timothy
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flight Test - cart before horse?
Maybe I'm getting the cart before the horse, but did anyone make something
like kneeboard-size flight test cards for your test period? Can I borrow
your format, if yes?
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025
tdt(at)aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV10 HQ in full swing |
| From: | "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com> |
Just an update....
My order came in this morning and I've already booked a flight into
Milwaukee. I'm leaving Houston a 7AM.
See you in Oshkosh!
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 HQ in full swing
What sucks is that I'm a sales guy and this is the last week of our
fiscal quarter. So yeah, I'm working. I've got 1 more transaction that
I'm tracking and if I can get it in early this week, I'm buying the next
airline ticket to Chicago or Milwaukee or someplace close.
If I get to head that way, I'll send an e-mail and let you know.
I plan on traveling with a 1 man tent, a few days of clothes, sunscreen,
toiletries, and rain gear all stuffed in a backpack.
Hopefully things will work out and I can get there. :)
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim(at)MyRV10.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:47 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 HQ in full swing
For all you folks who are around OSH, come on by the HQ! The food is
fantastic...thanks to Bog, Gary, and crew. For those missing out...what
the heck are you missing this for!?!?
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It
was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering
if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of
engine installation and if so how the performance numbers stack up
compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~=03
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net> |
sore subject right now
Below is the report I pulled from VAF-
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=38462&page=10
gipsowh Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 41
Gear Collapse Incident
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Yes, its true, N730WL was damaged Thursday afternoon during a test
flight and subsequent emergency landing. Pilot, Bud Warren and I were
taking the 10 for a flight around the airport to check out a high
operating temperature problem. We took off after a long taxi and climbed
normally, however the engine temperature kept climbing even after
leveling off. For unknown reasons the engine seemed to quit making
power. Bud skillfully banked back toward the runways. Not a good
situation. A discussion with Bud today leads me to believe that the high
engine temperature may have exceeded an operating parameter in the ECM
and the engine reverted to a low power setting. This has yet to be
confirmed but obviously needs to be addressed if this is indeed the
problem.
Bud managed to get the airplane back to the airport sacrificing
altitude and speed without stalling. Incredible job by Bud to get us
back to the runway. However, once over the runway, we were too slow and
the plane mushed onto the runway rather hard. We bounced and skidded to
a stop on the collapsed main gear. Fortunately, there was no fire and
Bud and I were able to get out of the 10 without any injuries, Thank
God.
Unfortunately, there was considerable damage to the main landing
gear and the prop was destroyed. The steps kept the bottom of the
fuselage off the runway while we skidded, so no noticeable damage to the
fuselage skin or tail. The wings didn't hit the ground but there is some
minor damage from the gear folding up. I haven't looked at the landing
gear mounts yet or the spar. So I don't know at this ten seconds the
full extent of the damage.
This project has been five years in the making and this is a tough
pill for me to swallow. I really appreciate the concerns voiced. Will
try and keep you posted on any new developments or findings.
__________________
Bill Gipson
N730WL
LS1 Geareddrives powered RV-10
Conroe, Texas
From: Paul Walter
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:45 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It
was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering
if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of
engine installation and if so how the performance numbers stack up
compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~=03
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ricksked(at)embarqmail.com |
Yeah there's one in Texas.....it dead sticked in and fold
ed the gear about two weeks ago......We just got back f
rom Osh via Texas to Las Vegas....all Lycoming powered.
Never missed a beat....
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:45:34
Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> |
Paul is asking about the real performance numbers. Here they are Paul.
Alternative Engine Up Front Savings $15,000
Additional R&D 1,000
hours Since we work for nothing-additional cost = $0.00
Cost to build Alt. Engine RV-10 $160,000-$225,000
Resale Value of Alt. Engine RV-10 $80,000 (plus Liability
Waver Signed, Witnessed & Notarized, twice)
Paul, everyone wants and hopes for a viable alternative engine RV or for
that matter just about any experimental airplane to be successful using
readily available automotive type engines. Unfortunately the category
has been littered with planes that never flew and even worse ones that
did fly. Some even making it all the way back to the airport.
My advice is that unless you are an aeronautical engineer that prefers
building to flying construct a plans built aircraft. Saving $ on an
alternative engine will be the most expensive path you can take.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pascal
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
sore subject right now
Below is the report I pulled from VAF-
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=38462&page=10
gipsowh <http://www.vansairforce.com/community/member.php?u=190>
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 41
<http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=38462&page=10
>
Gear Collapse Incident
________________________________
Yes, its true, N730WL was damaged Thursday afternoon during a test
flight and subsequent emergency landing. Pilot, Bud Warren and I were
taking the 10 for a flight around the airport to check out a high
operating temperature problem. We took off after a long taxi and climbed
normally, however the engine temperature kept climbing even after
leveling off. For unknown reasons the engine seemed to quit making
power. Bud skillfully banked back toward the runways. Not a good
situation. A discussion with Bud today leads me to believe that the high
engine temperature may have exceeded an operating parameter in the ECM
and the engine reverted to a low power setting. This has yet to be
confirmed but obviously needs to be addressed if this is indeed the
problem.
Bud managed to get the airplane back to the airport sacrificing altitude
and speed without stalling. Incredible job by Bud to get us back to the
runway. However, once over the runway, we were too slow and the plane
mushed onto the runway rather hard. We bounced and skidded to a stop on
the collapsed main gear. Fortunately, there was no fire and Bud and I
were able to get out of the 10 without any injuries, Thank God.
Unfortunately, there was considerable damage to the main landing gear
and the prop was destroyed. The steps kept the bottom of the fuselage
off the runway while we skidded, so no noticeable damage to the fuselage
skin or tail. The wings didn't hit the ground but there is some minor
damage from the gear folding up. I haven't looked at the landing gear
mounts yet or the spar. So I don't know at this ten seconds the full
extent of the damage.
This project has been five years in the making and this is a tough pill
for me to swallow. I really appreciate the concerns voiced. Will try and
keep you posted on any new developments or findings.
__________________
Bill Gipson
N730WL
LS1 Geareddrives powered RV-10
Conroe, Texas
From: Paul Walter <mailto:pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:45 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It
was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering
if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of
engine installation and if so how the performance numbers stack up
compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~
________________________________
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/30/2009 01:44 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> Paul is asking about the real performance numbers. Here they are Paul.
>
I get a chuckle every time I read posts like this. I can just
picture a few years back people saying something along the lines of "You
mean those two Wright brothers are going to make an airplane out of
bicycle parts, and they've designed their own engine to run it? They
must be crazy!"
Randy Crothers, like the Wright brothers, has had his share of
heartache getting a good system working, but back in March he posted on
VAF some performance numbers for his Subaru STi powered RV7A. Here is
part of his post:
"I kept dialing the boost back down and lowering the RPMs to try to stay
right at the RV7A VNE speed of 200 Knots TAS. I found I could maintain
this speed with the following settings:
4600 RPMs, 42.6" MAP, Fuel flow showed 11.2 GPH with an A/F mixture of
about 12.3:1, I was keeping it pretty rich to to make sure I had
detonation margin. OAT was 28F, Oil T 200F, PSRU T 165F, Coolant T 196F,
Intake Air T 99F. Altitude 8800'. I estimate I kept these settings in
place for a good 40 minutes and finally had to back out of it to descend
down below the clouds and duck under the class B airspace I have to deal
with. I stayed out on the West side of Puget Sound and turned to the
East down toward Olympia WA.
I guess this engine could make pretty good use of a faster airframe like
a Lancair, or maybe a Glasair etc.
So there you have it, I can cruise at VNE for extended periods of time
at 4600 RPMs and 43" MAP."
It may have cost him more than a straight Lycoming installation
since he has done a bunch of experimenting with various parts, however,
someone could come along and duplicate his working setup for far less
money. We don't have much of a resale market history for RV-10s, but on
average other aircraft do not seem to sell for any less due to different
engines being installed (Glastar, Zenith 601, for example). In fact,
for some airframes, an auto engine is actually preferred (KR2s,
Hummelbird, Sonerai, Sonex, etc).
An auto engine is certainly not for everyone, but IMHO it is not the
doom and gloom that Robin describes in his message. You definitely want
to do your research before going down that path, though.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by,
and that has made all the difference." --Robert Frost
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
[quote="pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.a"]Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It was still
a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering if anyone in the
U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of engine installation and if
so how the performance numbers stack up compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~
> [b]
Paul,
The youtube video you mentioned is probably one of two. Todd Swezey out of Savannah
with an LS2, or Bill Gipson out of Texas with an LS1. They both have run-up
videos on youtube.
This is probably not the best forum to ask that question - most of the guys here are married to their Lycosaurs. I would suggest you go to www.vansairforce.com and visit the Alternative Engines Forum.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255212#255212
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> |
DJ,
My posts usually have a large component of tongue in cheek and
this one was no different however my main point is not that it is
impossible to develop a successful alternative engine for the -10 but
more that it is very expensive and time consuming beyond compare. I say
this as one of the first to make a simple modification by adding the
James Plenum & Cowl. This seemingly simple change has probably cost us
500+ hours of development and we are still dealing with the
ramifications of this small variant. I think I was clear that one needs
real knowledge & skill to take that leap and even if you were to develop
a successful platform your resale value may be significantly lower.
In reading a Wright Brothers biography I remember a favorite quote
of Wilbur Wright the original alternative engine builder: "I don't have
time for a wife and an airplane."
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
On 07/30/2009 01:44 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> Paul is asking about the real performance numbers. Here they are Paul.
>
I get a chuckle every time I read posts like this. I can just
picture a few years back people saying something along the lines of "You
mean those two Wright brothers are going to make an airplane out of
bicycle parts, and they've designed their own engine to run it? They
must be crazy!"
Randy Crothers, like the Wright brothers, has had his share of
heartache getting a good system working, but back in March he posted on
VAF some performance numbers for his Subaru STi powered RV7A. Here is
part of his post:
"I kept dialing the boost back down and lowering the RPMs to try to stay
right at the RV7A VNE speed of 200 Knots TAS. I found I could maintain
this speed with the following settings:
4600 RPMs, 42.6" MAP, Fuel flow showed 11.2 GPH with an A/F mixture of
about 12.3:1, I was keeping it pretty rich to to make sure I had
detonation margin. OAT was 28F, Oil T 200F, PSRU T 165F, Coolant T 196F,
Intake Air T 99F. Altitude 8800'. I estimate I kept these settings in
place for a good 40 minutes and finally had to back out of it to descend
down below the clouds and duck under the class B airspace I have to deal
with. I stayed out on the West side of Puget Sound and turned to the
East down toward Olympia WA.
I guess this engine could make pretty good use of a faster airframe like
a Lancair, or maybe a Glasair etc.
So there you have it, I can cruise at VNE for extended periods of time
at 4600 RPMs and 43" MAP."
It may have cost him more than a straight Lycoming installation
since he has done a bunch of experimenting with various parts, however,
someone could come along and duplicate his working setup for far less
money. We don't have much of a resale market history for RV-10s, but on
average other aircraft do not seem to sell for any less due to different
engines being installed (Glastar, Zenith 601, for example). In fact,
for some airframes, an auto engine is actually preferred (KR2s,
Hummelbird, Sonerai, Sonex, etc).
An auto engine is certainly not for everyone, but IMHO it is not the
doom and gloom that Robin describes in his message. You definitely want
to do your research before going down that path, though.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by,
and that has made all the difference." --Robert Frost
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/30/2009 11:36 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
>
> In reading a Wright Brothers biography I remember a favorite quote of
> Wilbur Wright the original alternative engine builder: I dont have
> time for a wife and an airplane.
>
Good one! Another favorite: "My Ex-Wife told me it was her or the
airplane. I sure do miss her!" *grin*
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Ah yes, that always lurking disease, Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome. That one
can sneak up on you fast, especially for the dedicated builder. :D
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
On 07/30/2009 11:36 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
>
> In reading a Wright Brothers biography I remember a favorite quote of
> Wilbur Wright the original alternative engine builder: "I don't have
> time for a wife and an airplane."
>
Good one! Another favorite: "My Ex-Wife told me it was her or the
airplane. I sure do miss her!" *grin*
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Hmm, I disagree that this isn't a good forum to discuss this. While many of
us have chosen the path of least resistance, this is still a worthwhile discussion.
I look at it this way, the experimental category has basically branched
unofficially into two sub categories which are "homebuilt" and "experimental".
Most of us in the RV-10 world fall into the homebuilt category and yes, this
list is geared primarily to that crowd.
Many people think I am anti-auto conversion but that couldn't be farther from
the truth. I looked very closely at Egg's offering but came to the conclusion
it wasn't ready for primetime without a lot of after the fact engineering on
my part. Anyone who can confidently standup and claim it is a true bolt on,
firewall forward package for the RV-10 is really just trying to justify their
decision. I also have personal feelings on the type of person Egg is and, in
my opinion, I wouldn't want to do business with someone of his questionable ethics.
I saw the geared drives package run last year at OSH, and they are there again
this year, and was really impressed with the direction it was going. It appears
to be a well thought out design with lots of potential. The failure of what
I would call the proof of concept -10 in the last couple weeks sounds to me
like an ECU problem vs a fundamental design flaw and I think they can bounce
back from it fairly quickly should that prove to have been the problem. I also
think this package has the most potential to be the first, real, FWF package
in the -10 that isn't a Lyc. I hope they do get there.
I also feel the rotary's have a lot of potential and hopefully Mistral will get
there one of these days. But what all three of these have shown is that it
is not a simple task to move an engine that was designed for auto use into an
airplane. Most of the truly successful conversions are of the air cooled, low
RPM type as used in many of the aircraft cited previously. Yes, Egg has had
a measure of success in the smaller RV series, but most people that have used
his FWF package will tell you they were putting in extensive time and effort
to get through various issues in order to get a fully functional power plant that
could rival a Lyc. And if you look at the amount of $time$ and extra dollars
put in, odds are that savings in fuel and maint will be greatly reduced.
Yes there will always be the homebuilders that see the experimental category
as a way to get what they want at a reduced cost and potentially have a hoot building
at the same time, but the experimental side needs to exist also in order
to keep pushing the envelope. I ultimately made the decision to go with a
"standard" IO-540 because I decided I didn't want to be in the experimental group
with my family on board. This doesn't make it a right or wrong decision,
just my decision and everyone needs to come to their own decision without worrying
about the background noise out there. We all need to remember these are
certified as an "experimental" for a reason. If you are worried that one of these
experimenters are going to screw with your homebuilt resale value or increase
your insurance premiums, I would suggest you reevaluate whether you made
the right decision to build your own aircraft. I knew the experimental part of
the group would be there and it was something I took into account when I made
the decision to build. If other people out there didn't, it is certainly not
the experimenters fault and you should just suck it up at this point as it is
what you have made the decision to be a part of.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:40 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Auto Power
[quote="pdwalter(at)bigpond.net.a"]Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It was still
a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering if anyone in the
U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of engine installation and if
so how the performance numbers stack up compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~
> [b]
Paul,
The youtube video you mentioned is probably one of two. Todd Swezey out of Savannah
with an LS2, or Bill Gipson out of Texas with an LS1. They both have run-up
videos on youtube.
This is probably not the best forum to ask that question - most of the guys here are married to their Lycosaurs. I would suggest you go to www.vansairforce.com and visit the Alternative Engines Forum.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255212#255212
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/30/2009 12:23 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> FWF package will tell you they were putting in extensive time and effort to get
through various issues in order to get a fully functional power plant that
could rival a Lyc. And if you look at the amount of $time$ and extra dollars
put in, odds are that savings in fuel and maint will be greatly reduced.
>
And as with any engine package, if we learn from those that went
before us, we can cut that $time$ and extra dollars down considerably.
Installations today take much less time than those done previously,
because we can duplicate the successful installations of those that
spent that time in the past doing the experimentation. There is a
"recipe for success" that has been worked out over the years so that
builders doing installations today have significantly higher chances of
a non-issue installation compared to installations even as recent as a
couple of years ago. It is not quite as turnkey as a typical Lyc
installation, but the gap has narrowed considerably, and is getting
narrower every year.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "orchidman" <gary(at)wingscc.com> |
deej(at)deej.net wrote:
> On 07/30/2009 11:36 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
> Good one! Another favorite: "My Ex-Wife told me it was her or the
> airplane. I sure do miss her!" *grin*
> -Dj
Or the tee shirt I saw at Osh Tuesday
"Got a plane for my wife.
Best trade I ever made"
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255235#255235
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | MT Prop Controller |
I'm searching the archives for information on re-aligning the actuating
arm on the controller and I've found a few items.
However, am I supposed to have some documentation on the controller as
part of my Van's/Lycoming engine package?
Any guidance appreciated.
Bill "baffling the engine while dreaming of Oshkosh" Watson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MT Prop Controller |
Bill,
I got documentation with mine (180hp 6A) - I'll try to remember to dig it out this
weekend and zap it to you.
Alternatively, check out the MT website - they may have it online....
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
>Sent: Jul 30, 2009 3:04 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: MT Prop Controller
>
>
>I'm searching the archives for information on re-aligning the actuating
>arm on the controller and I've found a few items.
>
>However, am I supposed to have some documentation on the controller as
>part of my Van's/Lycoming engine package?
>
>Any guidance appreciated.
>
>Bill "baffling the engine while dreaming of Oshkosh" Watson
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MT Prop Controller |
| From: | "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net> |
Hey Bill,
Until someone gives you the technical details, the process is astoundingly simple:
cut the safety wire that connects the straight blade screws around the perimiter
of the governor face, LOOSEN (do not remove) the screws, then rotate the
whole arm/face mechanism to the position you want, retighten and safety wire.
The screws provide a friction fit for the face plate so that it can be adjusted.
If you already know all that and are asking about the position to lock it down,
we looked at the position the control cable was coming from and aligned it so
that halfway between stops was at 90 degrees.
Later, - Lew
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Painting done!
On with wiring and avionics.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255265#255265
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Besides the hassle of engineering a different engine package, and
making a cowl for it, even if it is "turn-key" there isn't anyone
besides Continental that has an engine in the horsepower range with
anywhere near as good fuel consumption specifics at total installed wt
even close. TCM is a little better on fuel and smoothness, at a cost
of at least 60lbs heavier. For all the hand wringing about old
technology, you simply are not gaining much with an auto engine in
technology. Yes automatic ignition advance. Liquid cooling has been
around aircraft engines since before WWII and generally rejected for
weight and space and leakage issues. Timed fuel injection is a very
minuscule gain over continuous mechanical. Most German cars still use
continuous mechanical.
So don't be fooled by the siren song of newer technology...most of it
has been tried and rejected on reliability, weight or cost
effectiveness.
While on engines, how many have considered the negatives of going with
a brand new untested engine at the same time as a brand new untested
airframe? Because of breakin issues, you don't have luxury of any taxi
testing, nor much prop testing etc. To avoid cylinder glazing you need
to get in the air quickly with minimal ground runs to check for leaks
first.
With a used certified engine, you don't have to worry about break-in
or infant mortality, and can focus on testing your airframe. Just a
thought.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 07/30/2009 12:23 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>> FWF package will tell you they were putting in extensive time and effort to
get through various issues in order to get a fully functional power plant that
could rival a Lyc. And if you look at the amount of $time$ and extra dollars
put in, odds are that savings in fuel and maint will be greatly reduced.
>>
>
> And as with any engine package, if we learn from those that went
> before us, we can cut that $time$ and extra dollars down considerably.
> Installations today take much less time than those done previously,
> because we can duplicate the successful installations of those that
> spent that time in the past doing the experimentation. There is a
> "recipe for success" that has been worked out over the years so that
> builders doing installations today have significantly higher chances of
> a non-issue installation compared to installations even as recent as a
> couple of years ago. It is not quite as turnkey as a typical Lyc
> installation, but the gap has narrowed considerably, and is getting
> narrower every year.
>
> -Dj
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com> |
No ofence but we have heard it all before. Not the place where you want to
go experimental with wife and kids on board.
Search the archives on every RV forum
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)deej.net>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
>
> On 07/30/2009 01:44 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>
>> Paul is asking about the real performance numbers. Here they are Paul.
>>
>
>
>
> I get a chuckle every time I read posts like this. I can just
> picture a few years back people saying something along the lines of "You
> mean those two Wright brothers are going to make an airplane out of
> bicycle parts, and they've designed their own engine to run it? They
> must be crazy!"
>
> Randy Crothers, like the Wright brothers, has had his share of
> heartache getting a good system working, but back in March he posted on
> VAF some performance numbers for his Subaru STi powered RV7A. Here is
> part of his post:
>
> "I kept dialing the boost back down and lowering the RPMs to try to stay
> right at the RV7A VNE speed of 200 Knots TAS. I found I could maintain
> this speed with the following settings:
> 4600 RPMs, 42.6" MAP, Fuel flow showed 11.2 GPH with an A/F mixture of
> about 12.3:1, I was keeping it pretty rich to to make sure I had
> detonation margin. OAT was 28F, Oil T 200F, PSRU T 165F, Coolant T 196F,
> Intake Air T 99F. Altitude 8800'. I estimate I kept these settings in
> place for a good 40 minutes and finally had to back out of it to descend
> down below the clouds and duck under the class B airspace I have to deal
> with. I stayed out on the West side of Puget Sound and turned to the
> East down toward Olympia WA.
> I guess this engine could make pretty good use of a faster airframe like
> a Lancair, or maybe a Glasair etc.
> So there you have it, I can cruise at VNE for extended periods of time
> at 4600 RPMs and 43" MAP."
>
> It may have cost him more than a straight Lycoming installation
> since he has done a bunch of experimenting with various parts, however,
> someone could come along and duplicate his working setup for far less
> money. We don't have much of a resale market history for RV-10s, but on
> average other aircraft do not seem to sell for any less due to different
> engines being installed (Glastar, Zenith 601, for example). In fact,
> for some airframes, an auto engine is actually preferred (KR2s,
> Hummelbird, Sonerai, Sonex, etc).
>
> An auto engine is certainly not for everyone, but IMHO it is not the
> doom and gloom that Robin describes in his message. You definitely want
> to do your research before going down that path, though.
>
> "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by,
> and that has made all the difference." --Robert Frost
>
> -Dj
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 6:04 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Besides the hassle of engineering a different engine package, and
> making a cowl for it, even if it is "turn-key" there isn't anyone
Hi Kelly,
I think you missed the point of my post that you replied to. If you
are duplicating someone else's setup that seems to be working, you
aren't doing any engineering of your own. You are just assembling the
same as with a Lycoming and copying the engineering that someone else
has already done. Pre-made cowls are available for purchase if you do
not want to take the time to make the modifications to the stock
cowling. These were not available a few years ago, but they are today.
Things have progressed a long ways since the "old days".
> besides Continental that has an engine in the horsepower range with
> anywhere near as good fuel consumption specifics at total installed wt
> even close.
I bet Randy Crothers would beg to differ with you with his Subaru STi
installation.
> So don't be fooled by the siren song of newer technology...most of it
> has been tried and rejected on reliability, weight or cost
> effectiveness.
I'm sure some experimentation has shown that some technologies don't
work, and they phase out. The engine systems in cars of today aren't
even the same as they were 5 years ago in some cases. Progress is being
made all the time, and new technology replacing old. Who would consider
buying a car that uses magnetos these days? Things change, technology
improves, old stuff is phased out. Even Lycoming has their new FADEC
system, and magnetos and carbs of today will be phased out over time as
new technology replaces them. It is inevitable.
>
> To avoid cylinder glazing you need
> to get in the air quickly with minimal ground runs to check for leaks
> first.
Not necessary with today's auto engines.
> With a used certified engine, you don't have to worry about break-in
> or infant mortality, and can focus on testing your airframe. Just a
> thought.
No worries about break in with a modern car engine, either. Things
have changed from the days of old.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 5:37 PM, Chris and Susie wrote:
>
> No ofence but we have heard it all before. Not the place where you want
> to go experimental with wife and kids on board.
> Search the archives on every RV forum
Hi Chris, no offense taken, and none intended. There are thousands of
experimental aircraft flying with auto engines, taking their wife, kids,
and best friends along with no more fears than with the Lycoming
engines. Different strokes for different folks, but not as doom and
gloom as you indicate.
Take some time to Google Sonex, KR2, Soneraii, Hummelbird, etc and
Corvair, Subaru EA-81, and VW engines conversions. You will find lots
of successful auto conversions. You will also finds not so successful
ones, along with not so successful Lycoming installations as well. In
particular, look for things within the last 2 years and compare to the
old days to see the differences.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
Kelly,
Not to be nosy, but don't you work for, or represent, an engine manufacturer? If
I am mistaken, I apologize.
John
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Besides the hassle of engineering a different engine package, and
> making a cowl for it, even if it is "turn-key" there isn't anyone
> besides Continental that has an engine in the horsepower range with
> anywhere near as good fuel consumption specifics at total installed wt
> even close. TCM is a little better on fuel and smoothness, at a cost
> of at least 60lbs heavier. For all the hand wringing about old
> technology, you simply are not gaining much with an auto engine in
> technology. Yes automatic ignition advance. Liquid cooling has been
> around aircraft engines since before WWII and generally rejected for
> weight and space and leakage issues. Timed fuel injection is a very
> minuscule gain over continuous mechanical. Most German cars still use
> continuous mechanical.
> So don't be fooled by the siren song of newer technology...most of it
> has been tried and rejected on reliability, weight or cost
> effectiveness.
>
> While on engines, how many have considered the negatives of going with
> a brand new untested engine at the same time as a brand new untested
> airframe? Because of breakin issues, you don't have luxury of any taxi
> testing, nor much prop testing etc. To avoid cylinder glazing you need
> to get in the air quickly with minimal ground runs to check for leaks
> first.
> With a used certified engine, you don't have to worry about break-in
> or infant mortality, and can focus on testing your airframe. Just a
> thought.
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 07/30/2009 12:23 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > > FWF package will tell you they were putting in extensive time and effort
to get through various issues in order to get a fully functional power plant that
could rival a Lyc. And if you look at the amount of $time$ and extra dollars
put in, odds are that savings in fuel and maint will be greatly reduced.
> > >
> >
> > And as with any engine package, if we learn from those that went
> > before us, we can cut that $time$ and extra dollars down considerably.
> > Installations today take much less time than those done previously,
> > because we can duplicate the successful installations of those that
> > spent that time in the past doing the experimentation. There is a
> > "recipe for success" that has been worked out over the years so that
> > builders doing installations today have significantly higher chances of
> > a non-issue installation compared to installations even as recent as a
> > couple of years ago. It is not quite as turnkey as a typical Lyc
> > installation, but the gap has narrowed considerably, and is getting
> > narrower every year.
> >
> > -Dj
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255284#255284
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com> |
DJ that may be the case in the US but diferent here with RV's . The resale
here is shocking with anything other than Lyco etc
As you say each to there own
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)deej.net>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
>
> On 7/30/2009 5:37 PM, Chris and Susie wrote:
>>
>> No ofence but we have heard it all before. Not the place where you want
>> to go experimental with wife and kids on board.
>> Search the archives on every RV forum
>
> Hi Chris, no offense taken, and none intended. There are thousands of
> experimental aircraft flying with auto engines, taking their wife, kids,
> and best friends along with no more fears than with the Lycoming
> engines. Different strokes for different folks, but not as doom and
> gloom as you indicate.
>
> Take some time to Google Sonex, KR2, Soneraii, Hummelbird, etc and
> Corvair, Subaru EA-81, and VW engines conversions. You will find lots
> of successful auto conversions. You will also finds not so successful
> ones, along with not so successful Lycoming installations as well. In
> particular, look for things within the last 2 years and compare to the
> old days to see the differences.
>
> -Dj
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
It is a bit of a sore subject here, as one RV-10 builder with
Eggenfeller engine augered in just hours before he planned to take
family on a trip in it. Some his fault, some engine's fault, as it was
a botched deadstick landing after loss of power. Only speculative what
caused loss of power. None-the-less, another experimental pilot
deceased, loss of a friend, with impacts on our insurance.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 7/30/2009 5:37 PM, Chris and Susie wrote:
>>
>> No ofence but we have heard it all before. Not the place where you want
>> to go experimental with wife and kids on board.
>> Search the archives on every RV forum
>
> Hi Chris, no offense taken, and none intended. There are thousands of
> experimental aircraft flying with auto engines, taking their wife, kids,
> and best friends along with no more fears than with the Lycoming
> engines. Different strokes for different folks, but not as doom and
> gloom as you indicate.
>
> Take some time to Google Sonex, KR2, Soneraii, Hummelbird, etc and
> Corvair, Subaru EA-81, and VW engines conversions. You will find lots
> of successful auto conversions. You will also finds not so successful
> ones, along with not so successful Lycoming installations as well. In
> particular, look for things within the last 2 years and compare to the
> old days to see the differences.
>
> -Dj
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
Show me a pre-molded cowling for RV-10 for any alternative
engine..haven't seen any.
> I bet Randy Crothers would beg to differ with you with his Subaru STi
> installation.
>
Show me the data, reliable, .041 lb/hp./hr or better, 2000 hr TBO. No
one has yet.
>
> I'm sure some experimentation has shown that some technologies don't
> work, and they phase out. The engine systems in cars of today aren't
> even the same as they were 5 years ago in some cases. Progress is being
> made all the time, and new technology replacing old. Who would consider
> buying a car that uses magnetos these days? Things change, technology
> improves, old stuff is phased out. Even Lycoming has their new FADEC
> system, and magnetos and carbs of today will be phased out over time as
> new technology replaces them. It is inevitable.
Right. Magnetos need no external power and are totally reliable with
reasonable maintenance intervals. There is no other system that
provides that. EMag and Pmag are less than perfect in reliability and
unavailable for 6 cyl. Electronic ignition and FADEC die without
power. Even the Diamond diesel crashed with loss of power taking out
FADEC.
No FADEC provides optimum fuel mixture management. They are designed
for lazy pilots. No one is talking carburetor. No FADEC does any
better than available fuel injection properly managed. None of what
you are citing is NEW. It just combines systems designed over 50 years
ago. Fuel injection and turbocharging were all available by 1960 in GA
engines. Nothing since adds 5% to power, economy or reliability.
You simply aren't telling us anything we haven't seen before.
Kelly
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 7:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Some his fault, some engine's fault, as it was
> a botched deadstick landing after loss of power. Only speculative what
> caused loss of power.
Hi Kelly,
I knew Dan from multiple email and in-person chats. I was in the tent
site next to him the Oshkosh prior to the accident. It indeed was a sad
loss, and I was mortified when I heard about it. However, if you read
the preliminary NTSB report, and the series of emails exchanged on this
list, VAF and some of the other mailing lists, it seems pretty clear (to
me at least) that as unfortunate as this accident was, it seemed to be
primarily builder induced, and had nothing to do with the type of engine
that was installed. I am of the opinion that it could easily have been
prevented had proper tools and techniques been used, and the proper time
and training employed to learn the systems on the airplane prior to
flying it. We ALL learned an expensive and valuable lesson that if we
see any builder taking shortcuts, we need to speak up, and speak up
loudly, regardless of any hurt feelings. I heard plenty of comments
around the RV10 campsite at OSH that year about some of the issues seen
with his airplane, and no one, myself included, spoke up about it. That
is a lesson we must NEVER forget.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
I have NO idea where you got that idea. I am retired, RV-10 builder,
A&P/IA and Tech Counselor. Never worked for engine manufacturer in my
life. I was in one career a certified emissions technician on autos,
raced cars before switching hobbies to aviation many years ago.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:13 PM, johngoodman wrote:
>
> Kelly,
> Not to be nosy, but don't you work for, or represent, an engine manufacturer?
If I am mistaken, I apologize.
> John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 7:40 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Show me a pre-molded cowling for RV-10 for any alternative
> engine..haven't seen any.
<http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Products.htm> $1495,
professionally made by Zach Chase, as well known and respected craftsman
in the fiberglass community, with tons of Glasair, Glastar, Sportsman
and other aircraft under his belt.
>
>> I bet Randy Crothers would beg to differ with you with his Subaru STi
>> installation.
>>
> Show me the data, reliable, .041 lb/hp./hr or better, 2000 hr TBO. No
> one has yet.
If you are truly interested, I invite you to contact Randy directly and
inquire about his installation to find out about the HP being produced,
weight of the overall installation, and other details that you may be
interested in. There is no need for me to be the middle man, which
would be detrimental to your fact finding mission.
> Right. Magnetos need no external power and are totally reliable with
> You simply aren't telling us anything we haven't seen before.
I am one hundred percent certain we are not locked into magneto
technology (or any technology) in the aviation world from now until the
end of time. Just this year we have three (?) companies that brought
all electric aircraft to OSH. In another 50 years it is not unrealistic
to believe there will be lots more, or perhaps some even newer, better
technology available and in widespread use.
Technology improves, things change, and old tech is phased out. This
is inevitable.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
> <http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Products.htm> $1495,
> professionally made by Zach Chase, as well known and respected craftsman
> in the fiberglass community, with tons of Glasair, Glastar, Sportsman
> and other aircraft under his belt.
>
OK,
One exists. Pardon me if I insult anyone, but that appearance is butt
ugly, compared to James cowl or Vans cowl.
>>> I bet Randy Crothers would beg to differ with you with his Subaru STi
>>> installation.
>>>
>> Show me the data, reliable, .041 lb/hp./hr or better, 2000 hr TBO. No
>> one has yet.
I am not willing to take the time to search the world for someone that
might have a one off producing those fuel specifics. If there were
one, that made enough since, they would have the ear of the aircraft
manufacturers. Porsche tried, and failed miserably with their PFM
engine. No, I don't think Subaru or their tuners are smarter than
Porsche.
>
>
>> Right. Magnetos need no external power and are totally reliable with
>
>> You simply aren't telling us anything we haven't seen before.
>
> I am one hundred percent certain we are not locked into magneto
> technology (or any technology) in the aviation world from now until the
> end of time. Just this year we have three (?) companies that brought
> all electric aircraft to OSH. In another 50 years it is not unrealistic
> to believe there will be lots more, or perhaps some even newer, better
> technology available and in widespread use.
We may not be locked into magnetos, but there is no more reliable way
to have independently powered ignition out there today. Every battery
powered system has failure points, and you can waste lots of time
building redundant power systems that are heavier, and no more
efficient.
There simply is not more than 5% power available by using the latest
variable timing electronic ignition, over fixed timing magnetos, and
the electronics simply are not as reliable. That has been fact for
many years and hasn't changed. Loss of power on Dan Lloyd's plane is
very likely from electrical failure, whether builder induced or not.
Had he been more careful, it might have gone a few years without a
failure, maybe not.
I'm not interested in a 220hp engine for a plane the size of the -10 anyway.
If that were sufficient, I could mount up a TCM IO-360 like 220RV and
dismiss all the development and vendor issues with Eggenfeller.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
Kelly,
As I said in my post, I apologize if it was not correct. I just remember you making
posts about Barrett, or somebody like that. I also remember that you were
the one who got me on to NAPA 7220 primer. Best primer advice I've ever gotten.
No harm intended.
John
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I have NO idea where you got that idea. I am retired, RV-10 builder,
> A&P/IA and Tech Counselor. Never worked for engine manufacturer in my
> life. I was in one career a certified emissions technician on autos,
> raced cars before switching hobbies to aviation many years ago.
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:13 PM, johngoodman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Kelly,
> > Not to be nosy, but don't you work for, or represent, an engine manufacturer?
If I am mistaken, I apologize.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255307#255307
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MT Prop Controller |
Thanks Ralph. I went (back) to the MT site and found the manual.
Printed it but not read yet but I'm sure I have whatever is available.
Thanks!
Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I got documentation with mine (180hp 6A) - I'll try to remember to dig it out
this weekend and zap it to you.
>
> Alternatively, check out the MT website - they may have it online....
>
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
>> Sent: Jul 30, 2009 3:04 PM
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: MT Prop Controller
>>
>>
>> I'm searching the archives for information on re-aligning the actuating
>> arm on the controller and I've found a few items.
>>
>> However, am I supposed to have some documentation on the controller as
>> part of my Van's/Lycoming engine package?
>>
>> Any guidance appreciated.
>>
>> Bill "baffling the engine while dreaming of Oshkosh" Watson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 9:03 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> One exists. Pardon me if I insult anyone, but that appearance is butt
> ugly, compared to James cowl or Vans cowl.
No insult taken. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, and
aesthetics is always a personal choice.
I've always thought the A-10 "Warthog" aircraft were very cool looking,
but I know others that think they are butt ugly.
> I am not willing to take the time to search the world for someone that
> might have a one off producing those fuel specifics. If there were
*shrug* I can only point you to the source, I can't make you actually
go get the data and read it. If you decide you are interested enough,
you now have a potential place to find out more about it.
> We may not be locked into magnetos, but there is no more reliable way
> to have independently powered ignition out there today.
I haven't researched every single ignition source that is available
today, so I can't really comment whether this is true or not. It is
entirely possible there are ignition sources that are more reliable than
magnetos, but I don't know.
What about the three electric power aircraft that are being shown at
OSH this year? Are their electronic ignition sources more reliable than
magnetos? Are they more efficient?
> over fixed timing magnetos, and
> the electronics simply are not as reliable. That has been fact for
> many years and hasn't changed.
I'm not sure I am willing to accept this at face value. Typically in
the computing world, the MTBF of electronics is much higher than that of
physical devices that have moving parts. Do you have reliability data
on the electronics in the latest ignition systems versus magnetos that
you'd be willing to share with us?
> I'm not interested in a 220hp engine for a plane the size of the -10 anyway.
The current Subaru STi is putting out 305 hp in the car. I don't know
exactly what Randy's STi system is putting out for HP, but I bet if you
contacted him he might share that info with you... :-)
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>> I am not willing to take the time to search the world for someone that
>> might have a one off producing those fuel specifics. If there were
>
> *shrug* I can only point you to the source, I can't make you actually
> go get the data and read it. If you decide you are interested enough,
> you now have a potential place to find out more about it.
You are free to make your choices. How many are flying with the STi
engine in what airframes?
What are the fuel specifics? What is the weight. If you make others go
search that info, maybe it isn't worth advertising how "good" it is.
>>
> I'm not sure I am willing to accept this at face value. Typically in
> the computing world, the MTBF of electronics is much higher than that of
> physical devices that have moving parts. Do you have reliability data
> on the electronics in the latest ignition systems versus magnetos that
> you'd be willing to share with us?
>
Simple. No 12 V power, electronic is dead, no backup. To be
independent you need two separate systems and batteries. Find me one
battery as light a magneto that can power an ignition as long as you
need.
>> I'm not interested in a 220hp engine for a plane the size of the -10 anyway.
>
> The current Subaru STi is putting out 305 hp in the car. I don't know
> exactly what Randy's STi system is putting out for HP, but I bet if you
> contacted him he might share that info with you... :-)
Why don't you show us how good it is? Can it do it without a failure
prone PSRU? Horsepower delivered to the prop?? If the product is so
good, I'm sure others want to know details. Color me skeptical.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes(at)qnsi.net> |
Paul,
I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it. So
far no major issues. It's the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small super
charger. It's producing about 238 hp and closely matches Van's estimates
for the 235 hp engine. No fuel flow data yet but should be between .45
and .55 BSFC. I'm running richer because of the super charger and the
100 +F degree days here in Texas. But I'm also running 93 octane auto
fuel so it's a little easier on the wallet than 100LL. My FWF probably
coast about 18K but I made several items several times. My engine was a
0 time crate engine and I paid $5000 for it with several mod's mostly to
remove internals not needed for aviation. Several others are putting 3
rotor, 20B's in RV-10's. They will see between 260 and 300 hp depending
on intake design and porting. There's also a nice twin turbo Subaru
RV-10 that should be close to completion. He's a second- time RV and
Subaru offender. Ross?
If you have an interest you should do the research. Then if anyone can
talk you out of it you shouldn't do it. If someone can talk you into it
then you also shouldn't do it. It will add years to your build time and
may not save you any money. Saving money on the engine block is not a
good reason to pursue an alternative. The total cost of ownership and
flying can be less expensive then a Lyc. http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://www.flyrotary.com/> is a good resource for learning about auto
conversions. Its rotary related but things like cooling and fuel systems
have almost become standard regardless of the alternative engine. Our
rotary group has had several first flights this year. I am very
fortunate to have two other flying rotary's here in Austin TX. One
Lancair ES and an RV-7A.
I will not debate the merits of alternative engines on this site but I
will debunk a few things that were stated as absolute.
BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5 BSFC.
But who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
Alternative engine FWF's are heaver. While this is usually true it's not
set in stone. There are a few flying examples of lighter installations.
2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the price of
a lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000 hrs. One should
be close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevy's or Subi's.
RV-10 Cowl. Egg's got one for the Subi. Extreme Composites has a base
cowl for the Rotary. You have to add your own cooling inlets. This
allows the builder more options for heat exchanger placement. Not sure
who makes the subi cowl but Extreme composites makes cowls for the F1
rocket and other aviation fiberglass parts.
I will also confirm a few things that have been said and add a few more.
Your FWF will likely take more time than the airframe.
Your personal Phase 1 will likely be more than 100 hrs.
Flight testing will carry more risk.
Your electrical system needs to be bullet proof.
Your resale value will be lower. No problem if you plan to keep the
plane at least 10 years. The money you save on fuel will make up most of
the difference.
Your own your own for service and repairs. No dropping it off at the
repair shop.
Dan's accident was a tragedy and a blow to everyone on this list. But
lyc's and cont's also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES driver here in
Austin keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask him why he chose to
put an alternative engine in his plane he will hand it to you. It's
what's left of a Lyc piston that exited the cowl. Fortunately they had
turned back to the airport about 30 seconds before the engine came
apart. Just made the runway. We have another rotary owner with the same
story.
Bobby Hughes
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:46 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
Hello to the group,
I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently. It
was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was wondering
if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of this type of
engine installation and if so how the performance numbers stack up
compared to a Lycoming etc.
Paul
~=03
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/30/2009 10:30 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> You are free to make your choices. How many are flying with the STi
> engine in what airframes?
> What are the fuel specifics? What is the weight. If you make others go
> search that info, maybe it isn't worth advertising how "good" it is.
I have no idea. You seemed interested, so I was simply trying to help
you find the information you seek. If you are interested in the STi
information, I'd recommend that you contact Randy Crothers and ask him
about his setup. He posts frequently on the VAF forums, and I could
probably locate his e-mail address for you or anyone that may want it.
Just for clarification, I'm not advertising for anything. I am merely
trying to clarify some potential mis-information, and help point people
to sources for information if they are interested in finding out more.
> Simple. No 12 V power, electronic is dead, no backup. To be
> independent you need two separate systems and batteries. Find me one
> battery as light a magneto that can power an ignition as long as you
> need.
Okay, no fuel, piston engine goes dead. So which is more reliable, the
electric engine, or the piston engine? The two failure modes we just
mentioned tell us nothing about how reliable either engine package might
be. All they tell us is that without the source of fuel for the engine
(electrons for the electric engine, gasoline for the piston engine), the
engine does not run.
The electric engine needs power to run (ie, electricity). The piston
engine needs gasoline, air, and power (spark). On the surface it would
seem that needing 3 things to run versus 1 thing to run would make the
piston engine less reliable. In other words, the chances that 1 out of
the 3 things would fail might be higher than just one thing failing.
But that is misleading as well. We need to know what is the reliability
of each of the individual items, and then calculate them all together to
get a better idea of overall reliability.
The piston engine also has significantly more moving parts than the
electric engine. More moving parts generally means a higher chance of
one of those parts failing, but that doesn't paint the whole picture
either. The electric engine might have a single part that has an MTBF
of 10 hours, for example.
We can't really tell anything about the reliability of the piston
engine, the electric engine, or the various options available for piston
engines without having the reliability data for each part, and
calculating the assembled engine package as a whole. Without that
critical data, all of this is just speculation from both of us.
> Why don't you show us how good it is? Can it do it without a failure
> prone PSRU? Horsepower delivered to the prop?? If the product is so
> good, I'm sure others want to know details. Color me skeptical.
If you are the one interested, why would you ask me to do this work for
you? I've offered what help I can and tried to give some potential
sources for the information that you seek. If you are interested, you
should satisfy your curiosity for yourself, and I'll try to offer what
information I can. If you are not interested, I don't see how asking
others to do this work is of any benefit.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "McGann, Ron" <Ron.McGann(at)thalesgroup.com.au> |
G'day all,
I have the GRT EIS installed. I have an intermittent connection on one
of my EGT probes (EGT #2 bounces wildly from actual Temp to 0). Anybody
know whether 0 degrees indicated is an Open Circuit or Short to ground
condition on the EGT wires?
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, Flying in Oz
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On Jul 30, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Jesse Saint
wrote:
>
> Anybody know of a good primer to use
Sherwin Williams 988
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/products/show_product.cfm?product=7565
:-)
-Dj
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Paul,
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it. So far no
> major issues. Its the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small super charger. Its
> producing about 238 hp and closely matches Vans estimates for the 235 hp
> engine. No fuel flow data yet but should be between .45 and .55 BSFC. Im
> running richer because of the super charger and the 100 +F degree days here
> in Texas. But Im also running 93 octane auto fuel so its a little easier
> on the wallet than 100LL.
So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the
country without ethanol.
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5 BSFC. But
> who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly
shorter fuel range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the price of a
> lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000 hrs. One should be
> close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevys or Subis.
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
But lycs
> and conts also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES driver here in Austin
> keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask him why he chose to put an
> alternative engine in his plane he will hand it to you. Its whats left of
> a Lyc piston that exited the cowl. Fortunately they had turned back to the
> airport about 30 seconds before the engine came apart. Just made the
> runway.We have another rotary owner with the same story.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only
the TCM has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new
story or new name to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper
inspection/assembly...no engine is immune from that. Engines don't
fail catastrophically unless not built right to start, or over
stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-10 OSH Event Reminder |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Just a reminder to those at OSH that we're having the big cookout tonight. Smoked
brisket, fresh sweet corn, beans, strawberry shortcake and ice cream!
starting around 6:00, nothing to bring except possibly a chair. We'll have a plate
out to collect some $ if you'd like to contribute.
Even if you don't eat or are running late feel free to stop by - very difficult
to find a larger collection of RV-10 flyers and builders in one spot. There
are usually people out talking until at least 10:30 or 11:00.
Location is Camp Scholler, 55th and Lindbergh which is about a 5 minute walk from
either the Theater in the Woods gate or the Fly Market gate.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255344#255344
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes(at)qnsi.net> |
So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the country without
ethanol.
None locally yet but the fuel system is ethanol safe. No vapor pressure issues
so far.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly shorter fuel
range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
Personal range is about 3 hours. Plane can go much further than me.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only the TCM
has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new story or new name
to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper inspection/assembly...no engine
is immune from that. Engines don't fail catastrophically unless not built right
to start, or over stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
Your correct. Pistons are aluminum and rotors are steel. So I should have said
ball of aluminum. It was also a trainer so maintenance should have been perfect
right?
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
It would be about a three day task with my airframe and I would do it myself. As
I said, you can't just drop it off at the shop.
Bobby
(back to lurking)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Paul,
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it. So
> far no major issues. It's the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small super
> charger. It's producing about 238 hp and closely matches Van's
> estimates for the 235 hp engine. No fuel flow data yet but should be
> between .45 and .55 BSFC. I'm running richer because of the super
> charger and the 100 +F degree days here in Texas. But I'm also
> running 93 octane auto fuel so it's a little easier on the wallet than 100LL.
So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the country without
ethanol.
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5
> BSFC. But who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly shorter fuel
range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the price
> of a lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000 hrs. One
> should be close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevy's or Subi's.
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
But lyc's
> and cont's also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES driver here in
> Austin keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask him why he chose to
> put an alternative engine in his plane he will hand it to you. It's
> what's left of a Lyc piston that exited the cowl. Fortunately they had
> turned back to the airport about 30 seconds before the engine came
> apart. Just made the runway.We have another rotary owner with the same story.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only the TCM
has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new story or new name
to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper inspection/assembly...no engine
is immune from that. Engines don't fail catastrophically unless not built right
to start, or over stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 OSH Event Reminder |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Big Thanks to Bob. Great hospitality all week. Sorry I can't be there
as my return flight leaves Rockford early this afternoon. Was great
meeting some of the names seen here and seeing the pieces Geoff is
developing for the interior.
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:13 AM, bcondrey wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to those at OSH that we're having the big cookout tonight. Smoked
brisket, fresh sweet corn, beans, strawberry shortcake and ice cream!
>
> starting around 6:00, nothing to bring except possibly a chair. We'll have a
plate out to collect some $ if you'd like to contribute.
>
> Even if you don't eat or are running late feel free to stop by - very difficult
to find a larger collection of RV-10 flyers and builders in one spot. There
are usually people out talking until at least 10:30 or 11:00.
>
> Location is Camp Scholler, 55th and Lindbergh which is about a 5 minute walk
from either the Theater in the Woods gate or the Fly Market gate.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255344#255344
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/31/2009 07:38 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the
> country without ethanol.
One minor difference is that both Mazda and Subaru have designed and
support their engines running on gasoline with a 10% ethanol blend.
Lycoming does not yet support their engine running on gasoline w/
ethanol, although it will likely burn it just fine.
> It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly
> shorter fuel range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
At OSH this year a company is demonstrating their new gas/electric
hybrid aircraft engine. Another example of automotive inspired ideas
being modified for use in aviation. It supposedly gives an additional
40 hp for takeoff. No idea if it helps with gas mileage, but I can see
adaptions of it where it might.
Very cool stuff! It just gets better every year! :-)
> Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that
> labor?
>
An auto engine overhaul is about 1/10 the cost of a Lycoming
overhaul, so I would overhaul engines every 1000 hours versus 2000
hours. I think that works out to something like at least $15k savings
for every 2000 hours? That will buy lots of fuel, even at .5 BSFC. :-)
Even better, if I can put in a brand new engine every 1000 hours
instead of an overhauled engine every 2000 hours, that attracts me even
more. It is about $5k for a new auto engine, and somewhere around $20k
to overhaul a Lyc to new specs. Presuming the auto engine would even
need to be replaced at 1000 hours, that is still about a $10k cost
savings, and you get a new engine instead of a "used" one.
I suppose the same person that pays for the labor to replace the Lyc
every 2000 hours would pay for the auto engine replacement every 1000.
Would there be another choice for having someone else pay with either
the Lyc or auto engine?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Marz <blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re. GRT EIS Probe |
Hi Ron, I had the same problem; mine was a bad crimp on the D-Sub pin
in the connector to the EIS box. You should have continuity from the
pin to ground. GRT troubleshooting guide explains how to check it
out. Blue Skys Barry.
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher johnston <cj(at)popstudios.com> |
Hey Bobby -
Thanks for contributing with the information. Of course the argument
will rage on, but I applaud true experimentation and innovation. As
with anything, there are pros and cons, and the bonus of building is
that we get to make those decisions, do research, and have debates.
I ended up going Lyc, but in the beginning, I was 100% positive that
I'd be doing something alternative. After much soul searching and
research, I made the decision that was best for me. A big part of
the decision was the time investment. My girlfriend would rather be
flying than sitting around while I tinker, and in her mind there's
already been too much tinkering! Anyway, I hope to see your bird
around sometime. I appreciate you coming out from lurking to add
some info.
cj
On Jul 30, 2009, at 8:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it.
> So far no major issues. It=92s the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small
> super charger. It=92s producing about 238 hp and closely matches
> Van=92s estimates for the 235 hp engine. No fuel flow data yet but
> should be between .45 and .55 BSFC. I=92m running richer because of
> the super charger and the 100 +F degree days here in Texas. But
> I=92m also running 93 octane auto fuel so it=92s a little easier on
the
> wallet than 100LL. My FWF probably coast about 18K but I made
> several items several times. My engine was a 0 time crate engine
> and I paid $5000 for it with several mod=92s mostly to remove
> internals not needed for aviation. Several others are putting 3
> rotor, 20B=92s in RV-10=92s. They will see between 260 and 300 hp
> depending on intake design and porting. There=92s also a nice twin
> turbo Subaru RV-10 that should be close to completion. He=92s a
> second- time RV and Subaru offender. Ross?
>
> If you have an interest you should do the research. Then if anyone
> can talk you out of it you shouldn=92t do it. If someone can talk you
> into it then you also shouldn=92t do it. It will add years to your
> build time and may not save you any money. Saving money on the
> engine block is not a good reason to pursue an alternative. The
> total cost of ownership and flying can be less expensive then a
> Lyc. http://www.flyrotary.com/ is a good resource for learning
> about auto conversions. Its rotary related but things like cooling
> and fuel systems have almost become standard regardless of the
> alternative engine. Our rotary group has had several first flights
> this year. I am very fortunate to have two other flying rotary=92s
> here in Austin TX. One Lancair ES and an RV-7A.
>
> I will not debate the merits of alternative engines on this site
> but I will debunk a few things that were stated as absolute.
>
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5
> BSFC. But who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
>
> Alternative engine FWF=92s are heaver. While this is usually true
> it=92s not set in stone. There are a few flying examples of lighter
> installations.
>
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the
> price of a lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000
> hrs. One should be close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevy=92s or
> Subi=92s.
>
> RV-10 Cowl. Egg=92s got one for the Subi. Extreme Composites has a
> base cowl for the Rotary. You have to add your own cooling inlets.
> This allows the builder more options for heat exchanger placement.
> Not sure who makes the subi cowl but Extreme composites makes cowls
> for the F1 rocket and other aviation fiberglass parts.
>
>
> I will also confirm a few things that have been said and add a few
> more.
>
> Your FWF will likely take more time than the airframe.
> Your personal Phase 1 will likely be more than 100 hrs.
> Flight testing will carry more risk.
> Your electrical system needs to be bullet proof.
> Your resale value will be lower. No problem if you plan to keep the
> plane at least 10 years. The money you save on fuel will make up
> most of the difference.
> Your own your own for service and repairs. No dropping it off at
> the repair shop.
> Dan=92s accident was a tragedy and a blow to everyone on this list.
> But lyc=92s and cont=92s also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES
> driver here in Austin keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask
> him why he chose to put an alternative engine in his plane he will
> hand it to you. It=92s what=92s left of a Lyc piston that exited the
> cowl. Fortunately they had turned back to the airport about 30
> seconds before the engine came apart. Just made the runway. We have
> another rotary owner with the same story.
>
>
> Bobby Hughes
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:46 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
>
>
> Hello to the group,
>
> I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently.
> It was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was
> wondering if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of
> this type of engine installation and if so how the performance
> numbers stack up compared to a Lycoming etc.
>
> Paul
> ~=03
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
> One minor difference is that both Mazda and Subaru have designed and
> support their engines running on gasoline with a 10% ethanol blend.
> Lycoming does not yet support their engine running on gasoline w/
> ethanol, although it will likely burn it just fine.
Lycoming and Continental don't support mogas with ethanol because the
FAA prohibits its use, for good reason.
Higher vapor pressure than pure mogas, by at least a full point, and
very absorbtive of any humidity/moisture.
Also, mogas does attack some formulations of Proseal. I'm sure you
want to redo your tanks.
> An auto engine overhaul is about 1/10 the cost of a Lycoming
> overhaul, so I would overhaul engines every 1000 hours versus 2000
> hours. I think that works out to something like at least $15k savings
> for every 2000 hours? That will buy lots of fuel, even at .5 BSFC. :-)
Good luck on doing a full, competent overhaul for $2000. I've done
enough auto engines to know that isn't happening today.
I can certainly do a Lycoming for less than $20K unless major
components are worn out.
> I suppose the same person that pays for the labor to replace the Lyc
> every 2000 hours would pay for the auto engine replacement every 1000.
> Would there be another choice for having someone else pay with either
> the Lyc or auto engine?
Whether you pay for the labor or do it yourself, you are still looking
at a good 40 hours worth of work.
No where are you accounting for the cost of overhauling the PSRU every
500 hours or so, and the cost of removing and installing it.
The choice is certainly yours, just don't go in with blinders.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/31/2009 02:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Lycoming and Continental don't support mogas with ethanol because the
> FAA prohibits its use, for good reason.
>
Automotive gasoline with ethanol is not prohibited by the FAA in
experimental aircraft.
> Higher vapor pressure than pure mogas, by at least a full point, and
> very absorbtive of any humidity/moisture.
>
If using automotive fuel, you are supposed to test every time to
ensure you are using a good "batch". A pain, but not difficult or time
consuming, and it is rare to get a batch that does not pass. With the
full recirculating fuel system in an automotive conversion, the
humidity/moisture is not as much of a concern as with the Lycoming. By
the time you are ready to crank the engine, the fuel pumps have already
remixed the fuel and it just gets burned, same as in the car. When
flying, the fuel is constantly being remixed as well, so less concern of
separation at altitude.
> Also, mogas does attack some formulations of Proseal. I'm sure you
> want to redo your tanks.
>
No worries about that in my Sportsman - one piece tanks, no
proseal! :-) The fuel system components and engine in my aircraft are
all compatible with the use of automotive fuel containing ethanol.
I do not know about compatibility with Proseal, so anyone
contemplating the use of mogas with ethanol in tanks using proseal
should research it and verify. It is possible that those already
running automotive conversions in their RVs have done this, so that may
be a good place to start the research.
> Good luck on doing a full, competent overhaul for $2000. I've done
> enough auto engines to know that isn't happening today.
> I can certainly do a Lycoming for less than $20K unless major
> components are worn out.
>
Even if it were 3k for the engine overhaul, still a far cry from
$15k to $20k.
> Whether you pay for the labor or do it yourself, you are still looking
> at a good 40 hours worth of work.
> No where are you accounting for the cost of overhauling the PSRU every
> 500 hours or so, and the cost of removing and installing it.
>
Curious, where are you getting the 500 hours for TBO of the PSRU?
Also, where did you get the 1000 hours for overhauling an automotive
engine? I'm very interested in any data that you have that would
validate those TBO figures. Thanks!
The cost of removing and reinstalling the auto engine from the
airframe, in terms of dollars or time, is about the same as with the
Lyc, so I'd consider that a wash. If I'm replacing the engine and PSRU
(not overhauling them), it is simply a matter of reinstalling, so no
time spent on the overhaul itself. If overhauling, the time involved
should also be similar to the time to overhaul the Lyc, so again a wash.
A brand new PSRU is about $4500. I do not know the cost of the
overhaul, but let's say maybe $3k to replace the internals. If you have
a more exact number we can recalculate. If we estimate high at a $3k
engine overhaul and $3k PSRU overhaul, that is a total of about $6k. So
you could overhaul the automotive setup 3 times for approximately the
same cost as overhauling the Lyc once.
-Dj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | RV-10 OSH Event Reminder |
I wish I could have been there. I didn't get home until about 9pm last
night. After the late start with a dead battery (thanks Jim and Steve),
then it took about 1.5 hours to get around Indy at rush hour.
It was a great week. I met many new friends and saw many old ones. It was
a great week!
Thanks to Bob, Gary, Susan, and Brenda for handling all the logistics and
hospitality!!
Most know that I left early to pick up my son who has been off at AFROTC
Field training for the last month or so. He just gave us a call and we
found out he got the Distinguished Graduate and Top Gun awards. Needless to
say, we are proud of his accomplishments.
It's been a great week for our family.....
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 OSH Event Reminder
Just a reminder to those at OSH that we're having the big cookout tonight.
Smoked brisket, fresh sweet corn, beans, strawberry shortcake and ice cream!
starting around 6:00, nothing to bring except possibly a chair. We'll have
a plate out to collect some $ if you'd like to contribute.
Even if you don't eat or are running late feel free to stop by - very
difficult to find a larger collection of RV-10 flyers and builders in one
spot. There are usually people out talking until at least 10:30 or 11:00.
Location is Camp Scholler, 55th and Lindbergh which is about a 5 minute walk
from either the Theater in the Woods gate or the Fly Market gate.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255344#255344
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Anyone have a feeling about how far it is acceptable to mount the AHRS from
the CG? When does the "lever affect" really kick-in?
I would like to put it on a shelf like others have done - one bay behind
the battery bay, with the magnetometers there too. What do those in the know
think?
Thank You
Chris Lucas
#40072
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
I talked with the GRT folks about this at Oshkosh this week. They
recommend
putting the AHRS back by the battery (Vans makes a shelf) and the
magnetometers out on the wingtips. They indicated that having both on
the
same shelf might cause too much electrical noise for the magnetometers.
Dick Gurley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Anyone have a feeling about how far it is acceptable to mount the AHRS
from
the CG? When does the "lever affect" really kick-in?
I would like to put it on a shelf like others have done - one bay
behind
the battery bay, with the magnetometers there too. What do those in the
know
think?
Thank You
Chris Lucas
#40072
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
rngurley wrote:
> I talked with the GRT folks about this at Oshkosh this week. They recommend
putting the AHRS back by the battery (Vans makes a shelf) and the magnetometers
out on the wingtips. They indicated that having both on the same shelf might
cause too much electrical noise for the magnetometers.
>
> Dick Gurley
>
> --
Darn! When I asked them the same question at Sun 'n fun they didn't blink an eye
when I said I would mount both on a tray behind the battery bay. If you look
at their installation documentation for both, they have to be within 0.5 degrees
of each other in all orientations. Talk about CYA. I'm calling on Monday!
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255561#255561
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
I mounted the magnetometers up high in the bay with the batteries and have no issue
- been flying over a year. YMMV.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sat Aug 01 15:25:03 2009
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
rngurley wrote:
> I talked with the GRT folks about this at Oshkosh this week. They recommend
putting the AHRS back by the battery (Vans makes a shelf) and the magnetometers
out on the wingtips. They indicated that having both on the same shelf might
cause too much electrical noise for the magnetometers.
>
> Dick Gurley
>
> --
Darn! When I asked them the same question at Sun 'n fun they didn't blink an eye
when I said I would mount both on a tray behind the battery bay. If you look
at their installation documentation for both, they have to be within 0.5 degrees
of each other in all orientations. Talk about CYA. I'm calling on Monday!
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255561#255561
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Dick,
SO your saying they told you the AHRS itself could interfere with the
magnetometer performance? That seems odd. I wouldn't think much is going
on electrically in the AHRS plus it had that thick Al housing. Let us know
what they say John Goodman if you get a call in to GRT on Monday. I'll call
Tuesday to see if we get a third answer!!
I think I am going to press forward based on the input from folks already in
operation (I kinda just finished the mounting this evening anyway).
When it comes time, I'll give it all a thorough check out and move things
later if I have to. It is very convenient to have it all on the shelf
instead of having to run more wires out the wing etc.
Thanks for the inputs.
-Chris
#40072
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Gurley
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
I talked with the GRT folks about this at Oshkosh this week. They recommend
putting the AHRS back by the battery (Vans makes a shelf) and the
magnetometers out on the wingtips. They indicated that having both on the
same shelf might cause too much electrical noise for the magnetometers.
Dick Gurley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Anyone have a feeling about how far it is acceptable to mount the AHRS from
the CG? When does the "lever affect" really kick-in?
I would like to put it on a shelf like others have done - one bay behind
the battery bay, with the magnetometers there too. What do those in the know
think?
Thank You
Chris Lucas
#40072
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
| From: | "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> |
RV-List,
I thought I would share a sweet way to do your own panel
labeling that is fast, inexpensive and great looking. In fact your
graphic choices are nearly unlimited.
I had the unfortunate situation where the graphics on my
panel we not acceptable. I paid to reshoot the panel and decided to
label some of the items myself. I had considered using clear labels and
a Dymo style label maker like I used with my RV-6A. The results were
actually quite good but with limited choices in font selection, size and
spacing. The ideal system would be to use my graphics software to design
the correct labels and then transfer them to my panel in Decal form.
With a little research I sourced:
Color Laser Water Slide Decal Paper by papoilio. www.papoilio.com
I purchased the large pack of 10 sheets ($13.00) in case I
screwed up but I only needed one sheet as I was able to fit duplicate
labels all on a single page. I designed my labels in Adobe Illustrator
because it is a vector based program making the text and borders ultra
crisp. I also happen to own a Minolta Magicolor 2400W color laser
printer which gave me excellent results. If my printer didn't work well
my plan was to run a thumb drive down to Kinkos and use their large
Color Laser Printer but there was no need after I output and tested the
first sheet. If you are OK with Black graphics any Laser Printer will
do.
From here the process was straight forward, trim, soak in
bowl of water for 15 seconds, don't spill the bowl of water in the plane
(hardest step), place the decal on a pre-moistened portion of your panel
and properly position. Do the next decal while the first one is drying.
I purchased a special rubber squeegee and floating agent at
the same time I purchased the paper but never found the need to use
them. If you are confident you only need the 5 sheet pack your cost may
be as low as $10.00.
For high wear areas they suggest a clear coat over the decal
but these are in a low touch location and they seem pretty durable to
me.
With your own graphic designs your panel labeling choices are virtually
unlimited including photographs or multi color process:
(note: labels below are fuzzy due to .jpg conversion)
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hurst <johnh38(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
Robin,=0Ais this the stuff? your link wasn't working.=0Ahttp://www.papilio.
com/laser%20water%20slide%20decal%20paper.html=0Ajohn=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>=0ATo: rv10-
list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, August 1, 2009
11:12:14 PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00=0A=0A =0ARV-Lis
t,=0A I=0Athought I would share a sweet way to do your own panel
labeling that is fast,=0Ainexpensive and great looking. In fact your graph
ic choices are nearly=0Aunlimited. =0A I=0Ahad the unfortunate s
ituation where the graphics on my panel we not acceptable.=0AI paid to resh
oot the panel and decided to label some of the items myself. I=0Ahad consid
ered using clear labels and a Dymo style label maker like I used with=0Amy
RV-6A. The results were actually quite good but with limited choices in fon
t=0Aselection, size and spacing. The ideal system would be to use my graphi
cs software=0Ato design the correct labels and then transfer them to my pan
el in Decal form.=0AWith a little research I sourced:=0A =0AColor=0ALaser W
ater Slide Decal Paper by papoilio. www.papoilio.com =0A =0A I
=0Apurchased the large pack of 10 sheets ($13.00) in case I screwed up but
I only=0Aneeded one sheet as I was able to fit duplicate labels all on a si
ngle page. I=0Adesigned my labels in Adobe Illustrator because it is a vect
or based program making=0Athe text and borders ultra crisp. I also happen t
o own a Minolta Magicolor=0A2400W color laser printer which gave me excelle
nt results. If my printer didn=99t=0Awork well my plan was to run a t
humb drive down to Kinkos and use their large Color=0ALaser Printer but the
re was no need after I output and tested the first sheet.=0AIf you are OK w
ith Black graphics any Laser Printer will do. =0A From=0Ahere t
he process was straight forward, trim, soak in bowl of water for 15=0Asecon
ds, don=99t spill the bowl of water in the plane (hardest step), plac
e=0Athe decal on a pre-moistened portion of your panel and properly positio
n. Do=0Athe next decal while the first one is drying.=0A I=0Apur
chased a special rubber squeegee and floating agent at the same time I=0Apu
rchased the paper but never found the need to use them. If you are confiden
t=0Ayou only need the 5 sheet pack your cost may be as low as $10.00. =0A
For=0Ahigh wear areas they suggest a clear coat over the decal bu
t these are in a low=0Atouch location and they seem pretty durable to me.
=0A =0A =0AWith=0Ayour own graphic designs your panel labeling choices are
virtually unlimited including=0Aphotographs or multi color process:=0A(note
:=0Alabels below are fuzzy due to .jpg conversion)=0A =0ARobin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Marz <blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: > Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
I have GRT dual AHRS and MAGS mounted above the battery and after 150
hrs have had no problems. The individual AHRS are as close to
centerline as I could get them, and the MAGS are as far outboard as I
could get them. Blue Skys
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
| From: | "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> |
WWVzIGl0IGlzLiBNeSBwYWNrYWdpbmcgaGFzIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IHBob3RvIG9uIGl0IGJ1dCB0
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bmQgbXkgdGVzdCBsYWJlbHMgc2VlbSBkdXJhYmxlIGVub3VnaCAobXVjaCBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiBJ
IGV4cGVjdGVkKSBwbHVzIEkgc2VlIG5vIGlzc3VlcyBsYWJlbGluZyBzbWFsbCBpdGVtcyBsaWtl
IGNpcmN1aXQgYnJlYWtlcnMgYW5kIEkgZG91YnQgVVYgaXMgYSBzaWduaWZpY2FudCBpc3N1ZSBm
b3IgbXkgaGFuZ2FyZWQgcGxhbmUuIFdpdGggdGhlIHVsdGltYXRlIGZhbGwgYmFjayB0aGF0IEkg
Y2FuIHJlcHJpbnQgdGhlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlIGRlY2FscyBmb3Igbm90aGluZyBtb3JlIHRoYW4g
bXkgdGltZSBpZiBuZWVkIGJlLiANCg0KVGhhdCBiZWluZyBzYWlkIFN0ZWluIGlzIGV4Y2VwdGlv
bmFsbHkga25vd2xlZGdlYWJsZSBhbmQg4oCcYmVlbiB0aGVyZSwgZG9uZSB0aGF04oCdIHNvIEkg
d291bGQgc3VnZ2VzdCBidWlsZGVycyBsb29raW5nIGZvciBhIG1vcmUgcGVybWluYXRlIHNvbHV0
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Congrats on OSH 09 |
| From: | "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Let me be the first to congratulate Joe Czachorowski of Wilmington,
Delaware on his N87FT which wowed the judges and won the Bronze Lindy
for Kit Champion yesterday.
My personal favorite was Mark Chamberlain's Scheme Designer paint job on
N104ML from Temecula, CA. There were lots of great RV-10s on display.
Honorable mention should go to Deems Davis on N519PJ from Arizona, for
getting into the social scene so fast he forgot to post the Green "Judge
ME" sticker soon enough, and his work should not be overlooked.
John Cox
#600
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "McGann, Ron" <Ron.McGann(at)thalesgroup.com.au> |
I would support this.
My AHRS and magnetometer are located in the 'standard' position on a
tray above and aft of the battery. I thought it was magnetically
benign, but about 10 mins into every flight my displays suffer the
'leans' by about 5degs. Still trying to get to the bottom of the issue.
GRT seem to be fairly sure that there is some magnetic interference
there. I will be moving the magnetometer to the wingtip shortly.
I reckon magnetometer installation is a chook raffle (crapshoot to you
guys up north). AHRS on the tray and magnetomoeters in the wingtip
should be standard IMHO.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM
Flying in oz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Gurley
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2009 6:55 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
I talked with the GRT folks about this at Oshkosh this week. They
recommend
putting the AHRS back by the battery (Vans makes a shelf) and the
magnetometers out on the wingtips. They indicated that having both on
the
same shelf might cause too much electrical noise for the magnetometers.
Dick Gurley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Anyone have a feeling about how far it is acceptable to mount the AHRS
from
the CG? When does the "lever affect" really kick-in?
I would like to put it on a shelf like others have done - one bay
behind
the battery bay, with the magnetometers there too. What do those in the
know
think?
Thank You
Chris Lucas
#40072
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OSH - Looking to share camping for tent |
| From: | "arjetz" <arjetz(at)gmail.com> |
try to choose the sierra tent its has a good quality
________________
Event tents (http://www.buyshade.com)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255733#255733
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flap Bulge - Leading Edge |
| From: | jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com |
Lessons for Oshkosh....
A while back we noticed the nose of our flaps bulges slightly below the
bottom wing skin. The bulge is not consistent along the length of the
flap. While at Oshkosh I compared our flaps to other examples and found
that this is a fairly common problem (if it can be called a problem). All
of the aircraft with retracted flaps I looked at had the problem, except
one (Vans demo RV-10). I did not look at all of the examples on display.
I talked to Ken K. about this, he seemed surprised. I asked if it would
be OK to hand form the leading edge to eliminate the bulge, he said that
would be good. He also said we could bend the bottom wing skin down a
bit.
We had quick build wings (including the flaps).
Just passing along the observation.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com |
I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap
setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it
approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel
the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to
apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was
going to swap ends. It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw. I then had
to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral. I did not get to the
rudder stop. The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight
& Balance during this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to
maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had
performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at
Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered
it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor. He could not
explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be
dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't
do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap
motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps.
I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same
thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still
there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches of 'real'
flaps and was able to do full slips.
Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder
all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. At least not
before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy.
After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the unexpected,
I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard
maneuver and getting a result never experienced before. 2) Don't do
that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are
sure to come.
I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least
we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the
maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Repairmen's Certificate |
| From: | jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com |
Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in
Oshkosh as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not issue
the Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to get the cert.
While in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch with the Milwaukee
FSDO on the field. He offered to go over and look at the airplane with
me, and ask a few questions about the construction. This amounted to
comparing our paperwork to the data plates, and asking which part we built
first. He did comment that our "Experimental" marking was 'marginal' at
best. We have it located in the baggage bulkhead, which is somewhat
blocked by the rear seat headrests. He didn't demand that we fix it, he
said if Joe thought it was OK, then it is OK. I said we would move the
markings to the door, as 'marginal' isn't acceptable to me, he was very
happy to hear this.
BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline
Interiors do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As I said
we had our experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead, during our DAR
inspection we had to make a new experimental marking because all of the
letters embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2" tall. The capitol letters
were taller, the lower-case letters were too short. It was in a 'fancy'
font, but that wasn't a problem. Abby made good and re-did the piece, so
it looks like we now have a take three on the markings.
The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him pictures
of the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not posing with parts.
He also wanted to see me working at all of the stages to prove I was
involved from beginning to end. He looked up the RV-10 quickbuild in the
database to verify it meets the 51% rule. He asked how I planned to
inspect the airplane, and what checklists I had for the inspections. He
wanted to hear that our part 43 checklist was modified to include unique
maintenance features of our model. He asked me to bring along the
builders log, but did not review it. He issued the certificate on the
spot. Kinda cool, he even filled out the application overnight, I only
had to double check the info, and sign my name. This guy was great!
I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the same time
as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just passing along
the experience.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Repairmen's Certificate |
Jason,
If the FAA makes the airworthiness inspection you can get the Repairman's
certificate at the same time. A DAR cannot issue it. I had my Pietenpol
Air Camper (which I flew to OSH this year - it was the green one with yellow
wings parked right in front of the Brown Arch) inspected by the FSDO and
they issued my repairman's certificate at the same time as the Airworthiness
Certificate.
That certificate is worth a lot - about $1500 a year in annual Condition
Inspection costs.
Jack Phillips, Raleigh NC
Pietenpol NX899JP
RV-10 # 40610 (still working on wings - slow build)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Repairmen's Certificate
Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in Oshkosh
as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not issue the
Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to get the cert. While
in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch with the Milwaukee FSDO on
the field. He offered to go over and look at the airplane with me, and ask
a few questions about the construction. This amounted to comparing our
paperwork to the data plates, and asking which part we built first. He did
comment that our "Experimental" marking was 'marginal' at best. We have it
located in the baggage bulkhead, which is somewhat blocked by the rear seat
headrests. He didn't demand that we fix it, he said if Joe thought it was
OK, then it is OK. I said we would move the markings to the door, as
'marginal' isn't acceptable to me, he was very happy to hear this.
BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline Interiors
do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As I said we had our
experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead, during our DAR inspection we
had to make a new experimental marking because all of the letters
embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2" tall. The capitol letters were
taller, the lower-case letters were too short. It was in a 'fancy' font,
but that wasn't a problem. Abby made good and re-did the piece, so it looks
like we now have a take three on the markings.
The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him pictures of
the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not posing with parts. He
also wanted to see me working at all of the stages to prove I was involved
from beginning to end. He looked up the RV-10 quickbuild in the database to
verify it meets the 51% rule. He asked how I planned to inspect the
airplane, and what checklists I had for the inspections. He wanted to hear
that our part 43 checklist was modified to include unique maintenance
features of our model. He asked me to bring along the builders log, but did
not review it. He issued the certificate on the spot. Kinda cool, he even
filled out the application overnight, I only had to double check the info,
and sign my name. This guy was great!
I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the same time
as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just passing along the
experience.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Repairmen's Certificate |
| From: | ricksked(at)embarqmail.com |
That's a FSDO that has nothing better to do...It.should only be a interview with
the recommendation letter from the DAR....I don't need another inspection...heck
they wouldn't even talk to me about doing the airworthiness inspection. I
hope my request is less of a hassle than yours
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 08:40:55
Subject: RV10-List: Repairmen's Certificate
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cumins" <jcumins(at)jcis.net> |
| Subject: | DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
Mark
The link to the web site does not work could you please resend the linl
Thanks
John G. Cumins
40864 Elevator assymb.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:12 PM
Subject: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00
RV-List,
I thought I would share a sweet way to do your own panel
labeling that is fast, inexpensive and great looking. In fact your graphic
choices are nearly unlimited.
I had the unfortunate situation where the graphics on my panel
we not acceptable. I paid to reshoot the panel and decided to label some of
the items myself. I had considered using clear labels and a Dymo style label
maker like I used with my RV-6A. The results were actually quite good but
with limited choices in font selection, size and spacing. The ideal system
would be to use my graphics software to design the correct labels and then
transfer them to my panel in Decal form. With a little research I sourced:
Color Laser Water Slide Decal Paper by papoilio. www.papoilio.com
I purchased the large pack of 10 sheets ($13.00) in case I
screwed up but I only needed one sheet as I was able to fit duplicate labels
all on a single page. I designed my labels in Adobe Illustrator because it
is a vector based program making the text and borders ultra crisp. I also
happen to own a Minolta Magicolor 2400W color laser printer which gave me
excellent results. If my printer didn't work well my plan was to run a thumb
drive down to Kinkos and use their large Color Laser Printer but there was
no need after I output and tested the first sheet. If you are OK with Black
graphics any Laser Printer will do.
From here the process was straight forward, trim, soak in bowl
of water for 15 seconds, don't spill the bowl of water in the plane (hardest
step), place the decal on a pre-moistened portion of your panel and properly
position. Do the next decal while the first one is drying.
I purchased a special rubber squeegee and floating agent at the
same time I purchased the paper but never found the need to use them. If you
are confident you only need the 5 sheet pack your cost may be as low as
$10.00.
For high wear areas they suggest a clear coat over the decal but
these are in a low touch location and they seem pretty durable to me.
With your own graphic designs your panel labeling choices are virtually
unlimited including photographs or multi color process:
(note: labels below are fuzzy due to .jpg conversion)
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Repairmen's Certificate |
If you use a DAR, you must apply in person for the Repairman's
cert. If you use the Feds, they can issue it without
appearing in person.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
> Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in
> Oshkosh as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not issue
> the Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to get the
> cert. While in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch with the
> Milwaukee FSDO on the field. He offered to go over and look at the
> airplane with me, and ask a few questions about the construction. This
> amounted to comparing our paperwork to the data plates, and asking which
> part we built first. He did comment that our "Experimental" marking was
> 'marginal' at best. We have it located in the baggage bulkhead, which
> is somewhat blocked by the rear seat headrests. He didn't demand that
> we fix it, he said if Joe thought it was OK, then it is OK. I said we
> would move the markings to the door, as 'marginal' isn't acceptable to
> me, he was very happy to hear this.
>
> BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline
> Interiors do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As I
> said we had our experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead, during our
> DAR inspection we had to make a new experimental marking because all of
> the letters embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2" tall. The capitol
> letters were taller, the lower-case letters were too short. It was in a
> 'fancy' font, but that wasn't a problem. Abby made good and re-did the
> piece, so it looks like we now have a take three on the markings.
>
> The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him pictures
> of the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not posing with
> parts. He also wanted to see me working at all of the stages to prove I
> was involved from beginning to end. He looked up the RV-10 quickbuild
> in the database to verify it meets the 51% rule. He asked how I planned
> to inspect the airplane, and what checklists I had for the inspections.
> He wanted to hear that our part 43 checklist was modified to include
> unique maintenance features of our model. He asked me to bring along
> the builders log, but did not review it. He issued the certificate on
> the spot. Kinda cool, he even filled out the application overnight, I
> only had to double check the info, and sign my name. This guy was great!
>
> I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the same
> time as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just passing
> along the experience.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Hmm, very interesting. Back when I used to fly skydivers the forward slip
was a SOP for getting down from altitude without shock cooling the engine
and the slips were sometimes so aggressive that it wasn't uncommon to unpor
t the fuel tank with the reduced fuel that jump ships carry. It's somethin
g I do sometimes without even thinking about it and that would have been qu
ite the surprise. Thanks for sharing with us.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:10 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Forward Slips
I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setti
ng), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached wha
t I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of th
e airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplan
e 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.
It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite r
udder to return back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The ru
dder almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during this
test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and
aileron to control heading (or track).
After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had pe
rformed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkos
h. He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quick
ly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor. He could not explain exactly
what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.
I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly re
plied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you wer
e forced to slow down and land without flaps.
I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thin
g, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at
0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and w
as able to do full slips.
Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all
the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. At least not befor
e understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy.
After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the unexpected,
I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard m
aneuver and getting a result never experienced before. 2) Don't do that...
. 3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to co
me.
I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least w
e should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver
is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Repairmen's Certificate |
Good info for builders not yet complete.
Along the way on my build, I had scores of pictures taken of me
working on various sections as well as documentation of how I ran
things.
Put it all together into a power point presentation with text boxes,
arrows, etc, and took that to the FSDO when I went for my repairman's
certificate. Also took my flight checklist and the annual condition
checklists for his review.
Made issuing my certificate a breeze.
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:40 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
> Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in
> Oshkosh as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not
> issue the Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to
> get the cert. While in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch
> with the Milwaukee FSDO on the field. He offered to go over and
> look at the airplane with me, and ask a few questions about the
> construction. This amounted to comparing our paperwork to the data
> plates, and asking which part we built first. He did comment that
> our "Experimental" marking was 'marginal' at best. We have it
> located in the baggage bulkhead, which is somewhat blocked by the
> rear seat headrests. He didn't demand that we fix it, he said if
> Joe thought it was OK, then it is OK. I said we would move the
> markings to the door, as 'marginal' isn't acceptable to me, he was
> very happy to hear this.
>
> BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline
> Interiors do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As
> I said we had our experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead,
> during our DAR inspection we had to make a new experimental marking
> because all of the letters embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2"
> tall. The capitol letters were taller, the lower-case letters were
> too short. It was in a 'fancy' font, but that wasn't a problem.
> Abby made good and re-did the piece, so it looks like we now have a
> take three on the markings.
>
> The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him
> pictures of the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not
> posing with parts. He also wanted to see me working at all of the
> stages to prove I was involved from beginning to end. He looked up
> the RV-10 quickbuild in the database to verify it meets the 51%
> rule. He asked how I planned to inspect the airplane, and what
> checklists I had for the inspections. He wanted to hear that our
> part 43 checklist was modified to include unique maintenance
> features of our model. He asked me to bring along the builders log,
> but did not review it. He issued the certificate on the spot.
> Kinda cool, he even filled out the application overnight, I only had
> to double check the info, and sign my name. This guy was great!
>
> I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the
> same time as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just
> passing along the experience.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
The AHRS can be mounted on the standard tray next to the battery however the magnetometer
must be at least 24" (IIRC) from the contactors and AP servo both of
which are strong sources of magnetic energy. I found that a shelf about 3"
below the top of the tailcone, attached to the J channel stringers works great.
I did look into mounting a shelf across the longerons but my testing with a
simple compass in that location showed large variations as things were switched
on/off and the AP servo exercised. Just a few inches higher made a huge difference.
Wingtips would also be an excellent location.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255783#255783
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Repairmen's Certificate |
great write up
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 7:40 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Repairmen's Certificate
Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in
Oshkosh as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not issue
the Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to get the
cert. While in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch with the
Milwaukee FSDO on the field. He offered to go over and look at the
airplane with me, and ask a few questions about the construction. This
amounted to comparing our paperwork to the data plates, and asking which
part we built first. He did comment that our "Experimental" marking was
'marginal' at best. We have it located in the baggage bulkhead, which
is somewhat blocked by the rear seat headrests. He didn't demand that
we fix it, he said if Joe thought it was OK, then it is OK. I said we
would move the markings to the door, as 'marginal' isn't acceptable to
me, he was very happy to hear this.
BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline
Interiors do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As I
said we had our experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead, during our
DAR inspection we had to make a new experimental marking because all of
the letters embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2" tall. The capitol
letters were taller, the lower-case letters were too short. It was in a
'fancy' font, but that wasn't a problem. Abby made good and re-did the
piece, so it looks like we now have a take three on the markings.
The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him
pictures of the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not posing
with parts. He also wanted to see me working at all of the stages to
prove I was involved from beginning to end. He looked up the RV-10
quickbuild in the database to verify it meets the 51% rule. He asked
how I planned to inspect the airplane, and what checklists I had for the
inspections. He wanted to hear that our part 43 checklist was modified
to include unique maintenance features of our model. He asked me to
bring along the builders log, but did not review it. He issued the
certificate on the spot. Kinda cool, he even filled out the application
overnight, I only had to double check the info, and sign my name. This
guy was great!
I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the same
time as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just passing
along the experience.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
I do slips all the time in the 10 but it's always with flaps, so the
difference here is the lack of flaps. I will have to try it without
just to see the effect. For standard ops though you would have flaps
if you're doing a slip....so it's emergency ops that make this
something to explore
Tim
On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:55 AM, "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
wrote:
> Hmm, very interesting. Back when I used to fly skydivers the
> forward slip was a SOP for getting down from altitude without shock
> cooling the engine and the slips were sometimes so aggressive that
> it wasn=99t uncommon to unport the fuel tank with the reduced
fuel tha
> t jump ships carry. It=99s something I do sometimes without
even thin
> king about it and that would have been quite the surprise. Thanks f
> or sharing with us.
>
>
> Michael
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:10 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Forward Slips
>
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
| From: | "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
I found it as Robin intended, but at http://www.papilio.com/index.html
3M has an aerosol lacquer which can be sprayed over the finished product
to extend its life and resistance to humidity. it's a DIY project.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00
Mark
The link to the web site does not work could you please resend the linl
Thanks
John G. Cumins
40864 Elevator assymb.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:12 PM
Subject: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00
RV-List,
I thought I would share a sweet way to do your own panel
labeling that is fast, inexpensive and great looking. In fact your
graphic choices are nearly unlimited.
I had the unfortunate situation where the graphics on my
panel we not acceptable. I paid to reshoot the panel and decided to
label some of the items myself. I had considered using clear labels and
a Dymo style label maker like I used with my RV-6A. The results were
actually quite good but with limited choices in font selection, size and
spacing. The ideal system would be to use my graphics software to design
the correct labels and then transfer them to my panel in Decal form.
With a little research I sourced:
Color Laser Water Slide Decal Paper by papoilio. www.papoilio.com
I purchased the large pack of 10 sheets ($13.00) in case I
screwed up but I only needed one sheet as I was able to fit duplicate
labels all on a single page. I designed my labels in Adobe Illustrator
because it is a vector based program making the text and borders ultra
crisp. I also happen to own a Minolta Magicolor 2400W color laser
printer which gave me excellent results. If my printer didn't work well
my plan was to run a thumb drive down to Kinkos and use their large
Color Laser Printer but there was no need after I output and tested the
first sheet. If you are OK with Black graphics any Laser Printer will
do.
>From here the process was straight forward, trim, soak in
bowl of water for 15 seconds, don't spill the bowl of water in the plane
(hardest step), place the decal on a pre-moistened portion of your panel
and properly position. Do the next decal while the first one is drying.
I purchased a special rubber squeegee and floating agent at
the same time I purchased the paper but never found the need to use
them. If you are confident you only need the 5 sheet pack your cost may
be as low as $10.00.
For high wear areas they suggest a clear coat over the decal
but these are in a low touch location and they seem pretty durable to
me.
With your own graphic designs your panel labeling choices are virtually
unlimited including photographs or multi color process:
(note: labels below are fuzzy due to .jpg conversion)
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DIY Panel Labeling $20.00 |
| From: | "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> |
http://www.papilio.com/
Specific Item I used:
http://www.papilio.com/laser%20water%20slide%20decal%20paper.html
Where I purchased:
http://www.texascraft.com/hps/home.php?cat=267
Interesting I now see they make a Bake On version that is more durable &
suitable for Dishwasher cleaning. I wonder if one could use a hair dryer
or heat gun to fix the label to the panel.
I also see they offer temporary tattoo paper so I can sport photos of my
RV-10 on my massive biceps. J
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00
Mark
The link to the web site does not work could you please resend the linl
Thanks
John G. Cumins
40864 Elevator assymb.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:12 PM
Subject: RV10-List: DIY Panel Labeling $20.00
RV-List,
I thought I would share a sweet way to do your own panel
labeling that is fast, inexpensive and great looking. In fact your
graphic choices are nearly unlimited.
I had the unfortunate situation where the graphics on my
panel we not acceptable. I paid to reshoot the panel and decided to
label some of the items myself. I had considered using clear labels and
a Dymo style label maker like I used with my RV-6A. The results were
actually quite good but with limited choices in font selection, size and
spacing. The ideal system would be to use my graphics software to design
the correct labels and then transfer them to my panel in Decal form.
With a little research I sourced:
Color Laser Water Slide Decal Paper by papoilio. www.papoilio.com
I purchased the large pack of 10 sheets ($13.00) in case I
screwed up but I only needed one sheet as I was able to fit duplicate
labels all on a single page. I designed my labels in Adobe Illustrator
because it is a vector based program making the text and borders ultra
crisp. I also happen to own a Minolta Magicolor 2400W color laser
printer which gave me excellent results. If my printer didn't work well
my plan was to run a thumb drive down to Kinkos and use their large
Color Laser Printer but there was no need after I output and tested the
first sheet. If you are OK with Black graphics any Laser Printer will
do.
>From here the process was straight forward, trim, soak in
bowl of water for 15 seconds, don't spill the bowl of water in the plane
(hardest step), place the decal on a pre-moistened portion of your panel
and properly position. Do the next decal while the first one is drying.
I purchased a special rubber squeegee and floating agent at
the same time I purchased the paper but never found the need to use
them. If you are confident you only need the 5 sheet pack your cost may
be as low as $10.00.
For high wear areas they suggest a clear coat over the decal
but these are in a low touch location and they seem pretty durable to
me.
With your own graphic designs your panel labeling choices are virtually
unlimited including photographs or multi color process:
(note: labels below are fuzzy due to .jpg conversion)
Robin
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/02/09 17:56:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
> SO your saying they told you the AHRS itself could interfere with the magnetometer
performance? That seems odd. I wouldnt think much is going on electrically
in the AHRS plus it had that thick Al housing. Let us know what they say John
Goodman if you get a call in to GRT on Monday. Ill call Tuesday to see if we
get a third answer!!
I called, but only a few are back from Oshkosh. Left a message for a call back.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255809#255809
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with the
magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer than 18"
to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the AHRS is,
but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing tip as first
choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from everything. Back
to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
I'm exactly 18" from closest edge of AHRS to closest edge of
Magnetometer. I tried to maximize the distance from the pitch AP servo
and the Strobe flash unit.
I recall some previous posts on be careful with the AHRS around the
pitch trim unit in the rear of the tail cone. It's further forward than
you think and I recall it being difficult to setup the 18" clearance.
Let's hear some more flying experiences with the GRTs.
Bill "Firewall Forward" Watson
johngoodman wrote:
>
> OK,
> I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer than
18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the AHRS is,
but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing tip as first
choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from everything. Back
to the drawing board....
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
> N711JG reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Repairmen's Certificate |
To a certain extent I agree! as far as the certificate, no need to show
them the plane. I was at a recent FAA safety event and I spoke with the
local FSDO rep, he kindly told me to keep good records of what I did,
have pictures that show me working on something, be ready to answer what
I was doing in a picture with details and be ready to tell them what I
plan to do for maintenance, the checklist I'll follow and a few
questions on how to repair issues, like an oil leak, mostly just to see
if I have an idea of what the certificate involves from me.
Sounds to me that Jason had an interested FSDO person, I have no issue
with the FAA giving me feedback this way in a kind way versus an
inspection at a field and be told I violate some FAA regs. Anyone who
reads the AOPA legal section by Jodice knows that the FAA and NTSB are
doing weird things to anyone who is in violation of some rules. I can
see this being an issue by a group of local FSDO "inspectors" looking
to justify their jobs at a local flyin.
Most of these guys care, take their feedback as a kind offer whenever
possible not as another inspection, because you really don=92t want to
have to deal with what might happen if you are inspected.
Nice write-up BTW Jason!
Pascal
From: ricksked(at)embarqmail.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Repairmen's Certificate
That's a FSDO that has nothing better to do...It.should only be a
interview with the recommendation letter from the DAR....I don't need
another inspection...heck they wouldn't even talk to me about doing the
airworthiness inspection. I hope my request is less of a hassle than
yours
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 08:40:55 -0500
Subject: RV10-List: Repairmen's Certificate
Just thought I would pass long my experience getting the Repairmen's
Certificate for our RV-10. We used Joe Norris who works for EAA in
Oshkosh as our DAR and Tech Counselor. Joe said that he does not issue
the Repairmen's Certificate, and I had to go to the FSDO to get the
cert. While in Oshkosh (since we are local) I got in touch with the
Milwaukee FSDO on the field. He offered to go over and look at the
airplane with me, and ask a few questions about the construction. This
amounted to comparing our paperwork to the data plates, and asking which
part we built first. He did comment that our "Experimental" marking was
'marginal' at best. We have it located in the baggage bulkhead, which
is somewhat blocked by the rear seat headrests. He didn't demand that
we fix it, he said if Joe thought it was OK, then it is OK. I said we
would move the markings to the door, as 'marginal' isn't acceptable to
me, he was very happy to hear this.
BTW, regarding the "Experimental" marking..... We had Flightline
Interiors do our interior, wonderful product, wonderful people. As I
said we had our experimental marked on the baggage bulkhead, during our
DAR inspection we had to make a new experimental marking because all of
the letters embroidered on the bulkhead were not 2" tall. The capitol
letters were taller, the lower-case letters were too short. It was in a
'fancy' font, but that wasn't a problem. Abby made good and re-did the
piece, so it looks like we now have a take three on the markings.
The next day I brought my laptop into the office and showed him pictures
of the build, he wanted to see me actually working, not posing with
parts. He also wanted to see me working at all of the stages to prove I
was involved from beginning to end. He looked up the RV-10 quickbuild
in the database to verify it meets the 51% rule. He asked how I planned
to inspect the airplane, and what checklists I had for the inspections.
He wanted to hear that our part 43 checklist was modified to include
unique maintenance features of our model. He asked me to bring along
the builders log, but did not review it. He issued the certificate on
the spot. Kinda cool, he even filled out the application overnight, I
only had to double check the info, and sign my name. This guy was
great!
I had thought that the Repairmen's Certificate was issued at the same
time as the inspection, but that was not the case for us, just passing
along the experience.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=========== ~=B2=03
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OSH Photos - Jim Combs |
| From: | "Jim" <jim(at)CombsFive.Com> |
Tim,
You can post these. Please!
Thanks, Jim C
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Ok, I'll rethink too then.
Thanks
Chris
#40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer
than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the
AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing
tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from
everything. Back to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | RV-10's at OSH Lineup |
Here is the bunch as I saw it Tuesday. I think it was about 3 rows of 6 at
one point, plus two across the way and two over near the brown arch.
-Chris
#40072
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-10's at OSH Lineup |
Thanks Chris, they're posted.
Tim
Chris wrote:
> Here is the bunch as I saw it Tuesday. I think it was about 3 rows of 6
> at one point, plus two across the way and two over near the brown arch.
>
> -Chris
>
> #40072
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Wing root fairings |
Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
detours for weather.
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
520 Lawrence St.
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert(at)brunklaw.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca> |
Hi All
While making the flight to KOSH, I have the chance to meet a very helpful
CBP officer who also provided the attached document. It lists key links for
info about how to cross the border and not get a F18 escort.
Cheers
Les
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
| Subject: | Wing root fairings |
I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
detours for weather.
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
520 Lawrence St.
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert(at)brunklaw.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
how do i contact jesse?robert
On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> >
>
> I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
>
> >
>
> Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
> warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
> detours for weather.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
> 520 Lawrence St.
> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
> Phone: 361-888-8808
> Facsimile: 361-888-6753
> robert(at)brunklaw.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vernon Smith <planesmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Hi All=2C
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fue
l tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT=3B finishing)
_________________________________________________________________
Get free photo software from Windows Live
http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e
n-US:SI_PH_software:082009
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
Jesse is on this list- jesse(at)saintaviation.com;
I am intrigued to see photos of the fairings in question.
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert Brunkenhoefer" <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
>
>
> how do i contact jesse?robert
> On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
>> > >
>>
>> I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Robert
>> Brunkenhoefer
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
>>
>> > >
>>
>> Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
>> warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
>> detours for weather.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
>> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
>> 520 Lawrence St.
>> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
>> Phone: 361-888-8808
>> Facsimile: 361-888-6753
>> robert(at)brunklaw.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Yes. I have a leak on the top of my right tank. In the walk area. Only
leaks with full tanks. Took months for the leak to appear. It is under my
3m walk area and is minor, so I have done nothing to fix it.
Also, I flew 410RV (Vans number 1) for my transition training and it also
had leaks in the same area.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All,
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel
tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing)
_____
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.
<http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
US:SI_PH_software:082009>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill DeRouchey <billderou(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Guys-
I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been
covered.
-
The-best place to locate a magnometer (and/or-the AHRS if they do not i
nterfer with one another) -is on a shelf-that spans the fuselage latera
lly between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachme
nt. This location has four good advantages:
-
I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest
distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do
not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more
of a problem than the autopilot.
-
A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and rol
l-axis.
-
If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more a
ccurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip.
-
This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable mag
netic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage.
-
Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just
had a good example of how the wing will move about-between ground and ai
r.
-
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB
-
-
-
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris wrote:
From: Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:36 PM
Ok, I'll rethink too then.
Thanks
Chris
#40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes wit
h
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer
than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for th
e
AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing
tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from
everything. Back to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com> |
Unfortunately I didn't make Oshkosh before the majority of the folks
started departing, but I still had a chance to visit a few RV-10's and
meet some builders too. Oh yeah, Oshkosh is huge and it took me 2 days
to find 55th and Lindbergh. So that didn't help either.
I had a chance to talk with Bob Condrey before he packed up and headed
out. Spent some time with Adrian Moses, and also spent a few hours with
David McNeil picking his brain on Saturday.
Lots of fun and a few lessons learned. It's a great way to share some
ideas, tips, and gotchas all at once.
We'll make it earlier in the week next year!
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
I thought I was leak free until painting the airplane with over 100 hours on
it. Turns out there was a very slight leak from 2 rivets that went
unnoticed with the pressure test as well as flying. Unfortunately it
doesn't take much fuel to trash the paint.
I'd recommend you do anything you can to verify no leaks to prevent pain and
suffering later on.
Marcus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All,
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel
tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing)
_____
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.
<http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
US:SI_PH_software:082009>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
| From: | "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> |
I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have quick-build
tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all of the leaking
rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a design flaw, but
it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement.
We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a while
back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or vacuum.
Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to face conversations
I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested
we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair
the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed
a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the bolts
going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it was possible.
I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton of time
and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think I have
fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite didn't seem
to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight
vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax
rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with
any ideas?
Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of the
tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash Van's,
I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank wouldn't leak,
and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you going slow-build,
read this every time you question your decision, at least the mistakes are your
own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening.
Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying #40617
4 Partner Build
Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Yes it is possible to remove the tanks. They work the same as Piper Cherokee
tanks. Fortunately I have had no problems with the QB tanks although I did
not remove them as Vans/plans suggested, figuring that why disturb what
someone else had already tested.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
-->
I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have
quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all
of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a
design flaw, but it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement.
We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a
while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or
vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to
face conversations I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to
Ken K. he suggested we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of
the tank, repair the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!!
Has anyone removed a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible
to get at the bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem
like it was possible.
I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton
of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think
I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite
didn't seem to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK,
applying a slight vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some
used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to
use. Anyone with any ideas?
Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of
the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash
Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank
wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you
going slow-build, read this every time you question your decision, at least
the mistakes are your own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening.
Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying #40617
4 Partner Build
Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
jkreidler wrote:
>
>
> I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have
> quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as
> though all of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I
> hesitate to call it a design flaw, but it is definitely an
> opportunity for design improvement.
>
> We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went
> around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and
> maybe pressure, or vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it?
Could have been me. Use minor vacuum ..... put the vacuum hose in the
filler, plug the vents, and have someone hold a rag around the
filler/hose joint ..... you don't want to seal it!!! Causes tanks to
shrink funny!
> This was one of the face to face conversations I wanted to have with
> Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested we remove the
> tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair the rivets,
> patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed a
> tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the
> bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it
> was possible.
>
> I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save
> a ton of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems.
> OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the
> problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested
> thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank
> and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with
> pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with any
> ideas?
The green Loctite should work ...... use the vacuum to suck some MEK
into the leak to clean it. If the MEK disappears in large quantities,
the hole may be too large for the green Loctite trick. In that case I'd
try the thinned MEK/vacuum step. Failing that, I'd use the Cherry rivet
fix before I removed the tank, cut a hole .... a big leak waiting to
happen ....
>
> Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard
> side of the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not
> trying to bash Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k
> car, the gas tank wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my
> problem. To those of you going slow-build, read this every time you
> question your decision, at least the mistakes are your own. OK, rant
> off, thanks for listening.
Either way .... your workmanship or theirs ..... the leaks are still
there. It's a problem when you drill a hole and then fill it with a
rivet, cover it with sealant ..... where you can ..... and hope for the
best. Your 50K car has a two piece tank with rolled edges .... and yes,
they do sometimes leak. Usually not bad enough to notice a stain on the
garage floor .... until the warranty expires!!! However, and I speak
from experience ..... auto fuel doesn't leave a stain like 100LL so it's
really easy to overlook it.Linn
>
> Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying #40617 4 Partner Build Wayne Elsner -
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is
the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And
guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have
experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive
to flaming!
Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes
on!!!
Miller John wrote:
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder
> and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it
> to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you
> (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight
> maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the
> departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we
> released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself
> (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by
> the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than
> the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
> approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the
> rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral
> position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
> about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
I did not let it depart.
It would probably develop into a spin after the departure if the
controls were held (aft stick, left or right aileron with opposite
rudder).
The elevator was holding back pressure to keep the at entry condition
relative to the horizon.
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
> >
>
>
> When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What
> is the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
> cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin.
> And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone
> have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're
> sensitive to flaming!
> Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your
> clothes on!!!
>
> Miller John wrote:
>> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
>> down).
>> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from
>> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.
>> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine
>> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good).
>> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
>> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
>> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
>> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional
>> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the
>> AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back
>> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether
>> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).
>> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness,
>> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder.
>> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip
>> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon
>> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is
>> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter
>> height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap
>> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in
>> case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for
>> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the
>> seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about
>> 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near
>> level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your
>> pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously
>> releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.
>> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low
>> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>> Hope this helps out
>> grumpy
>> N184JM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
| From: | ricksked(at)embarqmail.com |
That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 degrees angle
of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here remember that or we will talk!!!
He said with a big smile!!!!
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:55:04
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is
the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And
guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have
experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive
to flaming!
Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes
on!!!
Miller John wrote:
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder
> and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it
> to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you
> (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight
> maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the
> departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we
> released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself
> (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by
> the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than
> the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
> approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the
> rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral
> position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
> about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
| From: | "Jim" <jim(at)CombsFive.Com> |
Sir Grumpy,
What exactly do you mean by
"Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????
I
don't understand that term.
Jim Combs (N312F)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with
flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a
departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional
stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to
engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with
full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the
airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The
departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by
the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV
days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make
sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not
lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV
models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid
level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you
-10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have
a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the
bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure
feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim
your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle,
then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you
feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the
rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the
-10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with
flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com
wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test
experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note
well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was
fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess
to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the
airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply,
the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it
was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt
yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to
neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost
felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
>
this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no
one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about
this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same
thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder
pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was
causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability.
I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do
that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if
the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and
land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about
this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is
worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0
degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real'
flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me
(with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the
way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not
before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to
our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few
takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine
the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and
getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that....
3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are
sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken
has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand
what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the
fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
>
4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner -
Jason Kreidler
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
| From: | ricksked(at)embarqmail.com |
Great info....always stood behind the stabilized approach method and the slip is
always in the back of my mind...my -10 will drop a wing in a deep stall if you
don't dance on the rudder...as will most airplanes....played hard coming back
from OSH with the rudder coupled with the ailerons trying to hold track in
40 kt cross winds...aircraft tracked very well but never fully hands off..
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:38:49
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:
>
> That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90
> degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here
> remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent
> via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
Hi Rick! I have my Pitts to give me my aerobatic fix. Does your
insurance really have the 90 degree prohibition?? I have no clue what
my insurance says .... underwritten by Mexican company! I have no wish
to get wild in the -10. I've seen enough examples of what happens when
you fly out of the category!!!
Linn
Still thinking of renting the car.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Good points Bill. I decided to make the shelf for the magnetometers just
ahead of the seat belt attach. I am putting another shelf forward of that
slightly aft of the battery to hold the AHRS. Both units will be completely
aligned though separated based on GRT's inputs that the AHRS can cause some
disturbance in the magnetometer.
-Chris Lucas
#40072
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Guys-
I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been
covered.
The best place to locate a magnometer (and/or the AHRS if they do not
interfer with one another) is on a shelf that spans the fuselage laterally
between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachment.
This location has four good advantages:
I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest
distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do
not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more
of a problem than the autopilot.
A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and roll
axis.
If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more
accurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip.
This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable
magnetic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage.
Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just
had a good example of how the wing will move about between ground and air.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris wrote:
From: Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:36 PM
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toaster73@embarqmail.com> >
Ok, I'll rethink too then.
Thanks
Chris
#40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-rv10-list-server@matroni
cs.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-rv10-list-server@matroni
cs.com> ] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rv10-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=johngoodman@earthlink.net> >
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer
than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the
AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing
tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from
everything. Back to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#25582/www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821> "
target=_blank>http://www.matronicatronics.com/" ; -Matt
Dralle, List Admin=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight
- usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not
always) induced by cross controls to start with.
Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and
rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling
moment and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing
aircraft). Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than
tumble. Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by
torque effects of the engine.
Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in
today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching
moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.
The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching
the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the
Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going
sideways in the seat.
Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first
response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize
ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening.
Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Jim wrote:
> Sir Grumpy,
>
> What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW
> or ????
>
> I don't understand that term.
>
> Jim Combs (N312F)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
> down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
> from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
> quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
> stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
> recovered itself (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
> by the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
> than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
> the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
> pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
> the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
> neutral position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
> use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
> >
> > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
> >
> > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> > forced to slow down and land without flaps.
> >
> > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
> >
> > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> > limited to our copy.
> >
> > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> > risk of what replies are sure to come.
> >
> > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> > perform.
> >
> > Thanks, Jason Kreidler
> >
> > N44YH - Flying
> > 4 Partner Build #40617
> > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Agree. Only really aggressive slip was from 400 AGL on a one mile final out
of an RNAV 6 in weather to minimums. Flaps were reflexed or perhaps zero,
KIAS was 100 and power was at idle and prop full forward. Since I was flying
from the right seat the nose went left and down, ailerons right, Slip
continued to at least 20 degrees nose left until about 50 AGL. Touchdown was
about 2000 ft down a 5000 ft runway in moderate rain. The left seat pilot
was admonishing me not to skid; the prop in flat pitch and engine at idle
were enough to slow and stop. My advice is that in any slip get the nose
down, the objective is to lose the altitude without a significant increase
in airspeed. You definitely don't want the stall one wing and it is likely
that the airspeed indication will not be accurate. It is more accurate
because of the static ports on each side of the aircraft but the airflow to
the pitot will be skewed.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping
to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart
underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and
opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to
depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did
literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers
in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply
unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick
altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the
wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an
RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that
you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the
earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid
level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above
5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do
inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle,
then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel
that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while
simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap
setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached
what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of
the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the
airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap
ends. It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply
opposite rudder to return back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder
stop. The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance
during this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had
performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at
Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it
quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor. He could not explain
exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral
stability. I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he
quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost,
and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps.
I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same
thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there
at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and
was able to do full slips.
Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all
the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. At least not before
understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy.
After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the unexpected, I
hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard
maneuver and getting a result never experienced before. 2) Don't do
that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure
to come.
I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we
should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is
at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===================================
nics.com
===================================
w.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
It is called a crossed controlled stall; the aircraft will snap over and go
vertical in less than a second because one wing is producing lift and the
other is stalled. At low altitude always fatal.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
Sir Grumpy,
What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????
I don't understand that term.
Jim Combs (N312F)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rvdave" <davidbf(at)centurytel.net> |
I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre-drilled and according
to the drawings the weld should be flush with the skin, which it isn't,
and the measurement from rear spar should be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with
fuselage leveled. I could either let it go as is, move step to correct position
and re-drill 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with
existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came out in relation
to plans?
Dave Ford
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Folks, MEK is a poor second choice for thinning proseal. Toluene is the
correct thinner. However, rather than messing with thinning, just buy
one cartridge of A-2 compound, as it is already the correct consistency
for brushing. Perhaps $20.
In fact, the Mooney method for tank sealing is to do fillets and gap
seals with B compound, then brush A compound over the fillets and all
rivet heads, nutplates, bolts, etc. That is followed by a "cherry juice"
top coat that is brushed on, two coats, to protect the proseal from
effects of fuel, ethanol, and most anything else that gets in there. So
Vans approach of only using B-2 with no access panel is a minimalist
approach. My Mooney has 4 access plates in the design, and yes, there is
a different access panel version of proseal.
jkreidler wrote:
This topic went around a while back and someone mentioned they
applied heat, and maybe pressure, or
vacuum.
>
OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the
problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work,
someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight
vacuum to the tank and letting it
cure.
> Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying #40617
> 4 Partner Build
> Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Miller John wrote:
> Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight -
> usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always)
> induced by cross controls to start with.
>
> Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and
> rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment
> and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft).
> Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble. Which way
> it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the
> engine.
Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and
elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one wing
doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur.
>
> Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today,
> it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to
> boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.
I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try this
at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into some other
flight regime is troubling to me.
>
> The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching
> the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the Yaw
> is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in
> the seat.
>
> Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first
> response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons
> and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening.
>
> Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....
The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did you
really???
When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts were
that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd just have
to be there. Interesting thread.
Linn
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> |
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com>
> Date: August 4, 2009 10:24:28 PM CDT
> To: Linn Walters
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
>
> Over 4,000 hrs in single seat fighters, 1,700 in the A-7. Taught
> departure training for years. A-7 would depart at 400 kts (very
> violent, often tumbling end over end) or it would depart at 150 kts
> - very slow motion-like, with near vertical (down) nose position to
> start recovery. High speed departures (after tumbling) rarely had
> nose down more than 30 degrees or so.
>
> Today, there was no "aggressive" rudder or elevator input - merely
> held what i had as airspeed bled off.
>
> Slipped fighters all the time, even though we had speed brakes.
> With the swept wing fast movers, you ALWAYS kept the nose low and
> the speed up if you did a slip......
>
> Don't think there's an airplane I've flown that I didn't routinely
> slip when needed......just keep the nose low!
>
> On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Miller John wrote:
>>> Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled
>>> flight - usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but
>>> not always) induced by cross controls to start with. Longitudinal
>>> stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and rudder) is
>>> lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment and
>>> possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft).
>>> Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble.
>>> Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque
>>> effects of the engine.
>> Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and
>> elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one
>> wing doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur.
>>> Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in
>>> today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward
>>> pitching moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the
>>> traffic pattern.
>> I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try
>> this at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into
>> some other flight regime is troubling to me.
>>> The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're
>>> watching the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this
>>> maneuver). the Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the
>>> pants - going sideways in the seat.
>>> Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your
>>> first response must be to release back stick pressure and
>>> neutralize ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from
>>> happening.
>>> Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for
>>> this.....
>> The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did
>> you really???
>>
>> When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts
>> were that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd
>> just have to be there. Interesting thread.
>> Linn
>>> grumpy
>>> N184JM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: mounting steps |
Hi Dave,
From what I remember of a conversation with Vans, the step position
relative to the rear spar has more to do with clearing the flaps when
extended than anything else. If your step is canted a bit further aft
than specified, I don't think you have a problem. You don't say how
far from flush the weld is to the skin. Mine stopped at the edge of
the widest edge of the weld bead... which didn't seem all that "flush."
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Doors. Ugh!
On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:01 PM, rvdave wrote:
>
> I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre-
> drilled and according to the drawings the weld should be flush with
> the skin, which it isn't, and the measurement from rear spar should
> be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with fuselage leveled. I could
> either let it go as is, move step to correct position and re-drill
> 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with
> existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came
> out in relation to plans?
>
> Dave Ford
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: mounting steps |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Some of the weld will be visible but no big
deal. As long as you clear the flaps, it should be fine.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256122#256122
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
> I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with
which rivet to use. Anyone with any ideas?
Check out blind rivets at Aircraft Spruce. The AN 41H is a good example of a closed
end blind rivet. I think Cherrymax has it as BSPQ-41. Higher numbers, such
as 42, 43, etc, are grip length.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256124#256124
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
I'm sticking with my already completed installation.
I built a shelf across the longerons just aft of the bay containing the
AP servo. The magnetometers are mounted on the left side to maximize the
distance from the servo and the strobe power unit mounted on the right wall.
I purchased Van's AHRS shelf which mounts on the floor next to the AP
servo. The GRT AHRS holes are pre-drilled and the shelf appears to be
properly aligned.
This puts the Magnetometers and AHRS exactly 18" apart. The
Magnetometers are 23" from the AP servo and 24+ from the stobe power unit.
I hope it all works well.
Chris wrote:
>
> Good points Bill. I decided to make the shelf for the magnetometers
> just ahead of the seat belt attach. I am putting another shelf forward
> of that slightly aft of the battery to hold the AHRS. Both units will
> be completely aligned though separated based on GRTs inputs that the
> AHRS can cause some disturbance in the magnetometer.
>
> -Chris Lucas
>
> #40072
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill
> DeRouchey
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:40 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
>
> Guys-
>
> I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already
> been covered.
>
> The best place to locate a magnometer (and/or the AHRS if they do not
> interfer with one another) is on a shelf that spans the fuselage
> laterally between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat
> belt attachment. This location has four good advantages:
>
> I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the
> farthest distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator
> trim servo. Do not underestimate the interference from the little trim
> servo - it is more of a problem than the autopilot.
>
> A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch
> and roll axis.
>
> If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function
> more accurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip.
>
> This location is far from the baggage compartment and the
> unpredictable magnetic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage.
>
> Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I
> just had a good example of how the wing will move about between ground
> and air.
>
> Bill DeRouchey
>
> N939SB
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sandra & Rick Lark" <jrlark(at)bmts.com> |
Hi guys
I came home with a quart of Proseal and hardener from Airventure and recall
people putting the Proseal in a freezer to extend its shelf life.
The expiry date is Nov 2009, and since I won't be starting the tail section
until at least Sept, I am wondering if it's unopened, if it matters? Also
did anyone freeze the hardener as well?
Thx in advance.......
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
> I'm sticking with my already completed installation.
>
> I built a shelf across the longerons just aft of the bay containing the
> AP servo. The magnetometers are mounted on the left side to maximize the
> distance from the servo and the strobe power unit mounted on the right wall.
>
> I purchased Van's AHRS shelf which mounts on the floor next to the AP
> servo. The GRT AHRS holes are pre-drilled and the shelf appears to be
> properly aligned.
>
> This puts the Magnetometers and AHRS exactly 18" apart. The
> Magnetometers are 23" from the AP servo and 24+ from the stobe power unit.
>
> I hope it all works well.
The Van's AHRS shelf sounds like a possibility. Van's drawing shows it on the left
side, can it be mounted on the right? I've already got the A/P servo on that
side.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256132#256132
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> |
I do not know about the freezer, it is not water based. Refer might be preferred
if there is no smell.
I do know that I had Van's 2 oz kit (bought last Oct) in my very cold garage all
winter, and have used it with good results all this summer. Garage is in the
40's most of the winter.
--------
OSH '09 or Bust (busted) be there someday
Q/B Kit - end game
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256143#256143
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.com> |
Rick;
I do keep the proseal in the freezer. I have used it about a year over
exp date for non essential areas. I wouldn't hesitate using it on the
trailing edges/to bond the rudder/elevator if it was a little over the
exp date. I would not use it for the tanks. All you have to do is look
at the recent posts with all the trouble one has to go thru if you have
a leaking tank. Some have even repainted their airplanes. Messes up
the paint scheme which can take months to develop.
Dr Fred.
Sandra & Rick Lark wrote:
>
> Hi guys
>
> I came home with a quart of Proseal and hardener from Airventure and
> recall
> people putting the Proseal in a freezer to extend its shelf life.
>
> The expiry date is Nov 2009, and since I won't be starting the tail
> section
> until at least Sept, I am wondering if it's unopened, if it matters?
> Also
> did anyone freeze the hardener as well?
>
> Thx in advance.......
>
> Rick
> #40956
> Southampton, Ont
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
I would recommend keeping it cool at least, you will need it later in the
project and it will keep for a long time if it is kept out of the heat. In
the winter I kept my in the garage and in the spring, summer and fall, I
kept it in the refrigerator. I did not have any problem with it setting up.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sandra & Rick
Lark
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:06 AM
Subject: RV10-List: proseal
Hi guys
I came home with a quart of Proseal and hardener from Airventure and recall
people putting the Proseal in a freezer to extend its shelf life.
The expiry date is Nov 2009, and since I won't be starting the tail section
until at least Sept, I am wondering if it's unopened, if it matters? Also
did anyone freeze the hardener as well?
Thx in advance.......
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Cherrymax are "approved" replacements for solid AD rivets where the rivet
can not be bucked. They are significantly more costly than the blind rivets
supplied with the kit.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:18 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
-->
> I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar
with which rivet to use. Anyone with any ideas?
Check out blind rivets at Aircraft Spruce. The AN 41H is a good example of a
closed end blind rivet. I think Cherrymax has it as BSPQ-41. Higher numbers,
such as 42, 43, etc, are grip length.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256124#256124
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gary" <speckter(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank leaks |
I saw several aircraft at OSH with fuel leaks and I have a very small one on
mine too. After studying the issue, I think that the problem for some of
the tanks that test solid at first and then develop leaks later is that most
people put the wing walk non skid too far forward (myself included). There
are no extra ribs in the fuel tank like there is in the wing itself. Thus
it will flex more if stepped on. Thus causing leaks.
I mentioned this to Ken Kreuger and he had also come to this conclusion. I
think that the long term solution is to add a few extra ribs in the tank to
take up the stress as it is very difficult not to step on the forward part
of the wing while helping folks into the rear seat if it is their first
ride. Also one could label the tank as a non step area.
Thoughts on this?
Gary Specketer
40274
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
For future reference, the wheel kit supplied with the 10 is Cleveland kit
199104A consisting of brake assembly 30-59A and wheel assembly 40-59A. A
40-59A chrome is available. Cleveland publishes a product catalog which is
illustrated with part numbers. Rapco also makes some replacement parts for
Cleveland wheels/brakes; their part numbers start with RA and then the
Cleveland number. Of course the nose wheel is from Matco and may be either
their 501.25 or 511.25 depending on whether you switched the uninstalled
Van's supplied nose wheel with Matco for a more appropriate one. Matco also
sells the RV10 axle which fixes the fork scoring problem in the Vans design.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank leaks |
| From: | ricksked(at)embarqmail.com |
I did not put the wing walk forward on the tank because it invites feet...Is this
leaking mainly on the QB's?
Rick Sked
------Original Message------
From: gary
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Aug 5, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Fuel tank leaks
I saw several aircraft at OSH with fuel leaks and I have a very small one on
mine too. After studying the issue, I think that the problem for some of
the tanks that test solid at first and then develop leaks later is that most
people put the wing walk non skid too far forward (myself included). There
are no extra ribs in the fuel tank like there is in the wing itself. Thus
it will flex more if stepped on. Thus causing leaks.
I mentioned this to Ken Kreuger and he had also come to this conclusion. I
think that the long term solution is to add a few extra ribs in the tank to
take up the stress as it is very difficult not to step on the forward part
of the wing while helping folks into the rear seat if it is their first
ride. Also one could label the tank as a non step area.
Thoughts on this?
Gary Specketer
40274
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank leaks |
My QBs were done 3/2005 and we never stand on the tanks; no leaks at 190 TT.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked(at)embarqmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Fuel tank leaks
I did not put the wing walk forward on the tank because it invites feet...Is
this leaking mainly on the QB's?
Rick Sked
------Original Message------
From: gary
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Aug 5, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Fuel tank leaks
I saw several aircraft at OSH with fuel leaks and I have a very small one on
mine too. After studying the issue, I think that the problem for some of
the tanks that test solid at first and then develop leaks later is that most
people put the wing walk non skid too far forward (myself included). There
are no extra ribs in the fuel tank like there is in the wing itself. Thus
it will flex more if stepped on. Thus causing leaks.
I mentioned this to Ken Kreuger and he had also come to this conclusion. I
think that the long term solution is to add a few extra ribs in the tank to
take up the stress as it is very difficult not to step on the forward part
of the wing while helping folks into the rear seat if it is their first
ride. Also one could label the tank as a non step area.
Thoughts on this?
Gary Specketer
40274
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
One other thing; I have had two occasions to buy replacement parts and found
Vans prices to be much better than Aircraft Spruce and others. Probably
should check there first.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: For reference
For future reference, the wheel kit supplied with the 10 is Cleveland kit
199104A consisting of brake assembly 30-59A and wheel assembly 40-59A. A
40-59A chrome is available. Cleveland publishes a product catalog which is
illustrated with part numbers. Rapco also makes some replacement parts for
Cleveland wheels/brakes; their part numbers start with RA and then the
Cleveland number. Of course the nose wheel is from Matco and may be either
their 501.25 or 511.25 depending on whether you switched the uninstalled
Van's supplied nose wheel with Matco for a more appropriate one. Matco also
sells the RV10 axle which fixes the fork scoring problem in the Vans design.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
Doesn't have to be in the freezer .... just keep it cold. The hardener
is the part that goes bad with age. I've tested really old Proseal with
fresh hardener and it cured.
Linn
Sandra & Rick Lark wrote:
>
> Hi guys
>
> I came home with a quart of Proseal and hardener from Airventure and recall
> people putting the Proseal in a freezer to extend its shelf life.
>
> The expiry date is Nov 2009, and since I won't be starting the tail section
> until at least Sept, I am wondering if it's unopened, if it matters? Also
> did anyone freeze the hardener as well?
>
> Thx in advance.......
>
> Rick
> #40956
> Southampton, Ont
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
I put leftover proseal from my tanks in the freezer for 3-4 years now. I needed
to use some for the cabin top riveting recently and actually threw both parts
in the microwave to warm up enough to mix (I wouldn't recommend this for any
large qty) and had no problems with it. Setup just like it was new. YMMV and
I would recommend a test batch for any that is past the recommended date.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sandra & Rick Lark
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:06 AM
Subject: RV10-List: proseal
Hi guys
I came home with a quart of Proseal and hardener from Airventure and recall
people putting the Proseal in a freezer to extend its shelf life.
The expiry date is Nov 2009, and since I won't be starting the tail section
until at least Sept, I am wondering if it's unopened, if it matters? Also
did anyone freeze the hardener as well?
Thx in advance.......
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
johngoodman wrote:
>
>
>
>> I'm sticking with my already completed installation.
>>
>> I built a shelf across the longerons just aft of the bay containing the
>> AP servo. The magnetometers are mounted on the left side to maximize the
>> distance from the servo and the strobe power unit mounted on the right wall.
>>
>> I purchased Van's AHRS shelf which mounts on the floor next to the AP
>> servo. The GRT AHRS holes are pre-drilled and the shelf appears to be
>> properly aligned.
>>
>> This puts the Magnetometers and AHRS exactly 18" apart. The
>> Magnetometers are 23" from the AP servo and 24+ from the stobe power unit.
>>
>> I hope it all works well.
>>
>
>
> The Van's AHRS shelf sounds like a possibility. Van's drawing shows it on the
left side, can it be mounted on the right? I've already got the A/P servo on
that side.
> John
>
I think it is left side only unless they made a right side. Did you
install something other than TruTrak? My TruTrak servo is on the right.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank leaks |
| From: | "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> |
Gary, you are right on. I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that the majority
of the leaking rivets are the end rivets that hold the T1011 Tank Stiffeners
on the top inboard tank skin. This would make sense as this is where the
stress concentration would be if the tank were stepped on. These stiffeners do
not tie into the ribs, if they did, the problem MIGHT go away. While we did
not use the tank as a step I can not confirm that it was never stood on during
construction, I know it was sat on. If I were standing on it I could tell you
how many foot pounds of force it saw, two, the units for measuring the force
exerted by sitting must be different. Any takers??
Not standing or sitting, or placing anything heavy on the tank may very well save
builders from this rather annoying problem.
Just my engineering opinion.
Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Wayne Elsner, Kyle Hokel, Tony Kolar, Jason Kreidler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256256#256256
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | RV Smoke Systems |
Dear Listers,
Last week, someone posted a couple of pictures of 37 RVs flying in formation at
OSH this year. Very cool, btw. But what caught my eye was how many of them
had smoke systems installed. I found the following at ACS which looks interesting,
but kind of big for an RV-8:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sa102-103.php
Is this what people are using?
Where would one mount this system in an RV-8? Behind the baggage area? In the
engine compartment?
Seems really cool to have one of these systems, but are they just a big pain in
the ass to maintain?
Thanks for the thoughts,
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
FWF Starts This Weekend!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Brunkenhoefer <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | stephen saint's wing root fairing |
how do i get a wing root fairing like the one on N256H registered to
stephen saint? robert brunkenhoefer. 160 + hrs and enjoying it. 661G
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Marz <blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Gretz GA-1000 Cracked |
I just found a 1"x1/8" crack along the bottom seam of my GA-1000
heated pitot. I have 150hr on the plane and 10-15hr using the heat on
the pitot. Talked to Warren Gretz and the best he could come up with
was to patch it with J&B Weld. Emailed the new producers of the
GA-1000 but no response. It still heats up, but I'm going to replace
it. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Blue Skys
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
| Subject: | Gretz GA-1000 Cracked |
Given the fact that it's just a thermoplastic with basically an embedded element
and thermistor, you should be able to fix it just fine with some JB Weld or
similar. IMHO
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Marz
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Gretz GA-1000 Cracked
I just found a 1"x1/8" crack along the bottom seam of my GA-1000
heated pitot. I have 150hr on the plane and 10-15hr using the heat on
the pitot. Talked to Warren Gretz and the best he could come up with
was to patch it with J&B Weld. Emailed the new producers of the
GA-1000 but no response. It still heats up, but I'm going to replace
it. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Blue Skys
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Seatbelt countersink |
| From: | "Eric_Kallio" <scout019(at)msn.com> |
Anyone have a list for the seatbelt countersink? I am just about to the point where
I will need to buy it if I can't get my hands on one. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256434#256434
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | Gretz GA-1000 Cracked |
I had to have my pitot replaced via warranty. It had a short between one of
the thermistor leads and ground. Andrew takes awhile to respond. I got the
impression that he only reads his email on a periodic basis. I found I got
a quicker response by giving him a call. Just remember that he's 14 hours
ahead. He's good to deal with, just not responsive via email.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Gretz GA-1000 Cracked
Given the fact that it's just a thermoplastic with basically an embedded
element and thermistor, you should be able to fix it just fine with some JB
Weld or similar. IMHO
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Marz
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Gretz GA-1000 Cracked
I just found a 1"x1/8" crack along the bottom seam of my GA-1000
heated pitot. I have 150hr on the plane and 10-15hr using the heat on
the pitot. Talked to Warren Gretz and the best he could come up with
was to patch it with J&B Weld. Emailed the new producers of the
GA-1000 but no response. It still heats up, but I'm going to replace
it. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Blue Skys
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | cowl on front baffle photos |
| From: | "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> |
Does anyone have cowl-on photos that show the air inlets... with the rubber air
seal fabric material covering the sides and upper air inlet ramps? I've seen
plenty of photos where the cowl is off, but hardly any closeups with the top/bottom
cowl halves in place.
Thanks in advance,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256493#256493
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More fun with rebuilt engines |
| From: | "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> |
I had an A&P make a house call to replace two helicoils in my IO540. It took about
1.5 hours to complete both including sucking / flushing out thread debris.
Some rather interesting (clever) tools were required for the install that I'd not
seen before. Good learning experience.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256501#256501
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
Anyone running 600-6 mains or the standard 15/600-6? I bought 600-6s prior
to looking at the tires to be removed. Did not notice any handling
difference.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
It was great seeing everyone @ OSH this year, and a special thanks to
Gary,Bob and all who set up RV10 HQ and organized the dinners. Judy and
I returned yesterday after continuing on to Long Island NY from OSH.
Several people inquired about the door seals on N519PJ. 1st I should
acknowledge Sheril Hilton and Robin Marks for their innovation on this
idea, and Ed Hayden for kicking me in the pants to 'quit thinking about
it and just Do It!' I'm very happy with the results.
The door seal material is available from McMaster Carr
McMaster Carr p/n 1120A311
http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a311/=3390lx
I bought a 100ft roll and sold 30 ft to another -10 builder. I've got
enough left over to do 2 more doors. I cut up an initial 12 ft section
into pieces of various size/lengths to use during the trial and error
process of removing the cabin cover 'curved edge' fiberglass to provide
the right clearance between the cabin cover and the closed door. Like Ed
H. I found that it was necessary to glue the seal on, and after
experimenting with several 'contact like cements' I ended up using Pro
Seal, which works great. If you scan down this page
http://deemsrv10.com/Homelogindex.html you will find several entries
which describe the process I used to close out the door hinges to
complete the seal. I helped another -10 builder here in AZ to do the same.
Deems Davis N519PJ
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Godfrey <egodfrey(at)ameritech.net> |
Listers,
Can anyone offer up an opinion as to what would be a good choice of
a crimper for wire terminals? Would like to start with the ring
terminals and then work up to the pins for DB connectors.
Ed Godfrey
40717
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
I'd go to http://www.steinair.com/ for things electrical.
Linn
Ed Godfrey wrote:
>
> Listers,
> Can anyone offer up an opinion as to what would be a good choice of a
> crimper for wire terminals? Would like to start with the ring terminals
> and then work up to the pins for DB connectors.
>
> Ed Godfrey
> 40717
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
If you're not in a real hurry, you can usually get a good deal on AMP and
DMC crimpers on Ebay. Just set a firm price when you start bidding.
Occasionally, the bidding goes crazy. It did take me 4-6 weeks to get all
the positioners I needed for the DMC.
You'll want the AMP 59250 Red Blue Certi-Crimp T-Head Hand Crimper for
terminals and the Daniels AFM8 Crimp tool for the DB25s. You can see the
DMC tool and the various positioners on Stein's site. Pictures of both are
on my Kitlog site
(http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rleffler&project=260&cat
egory=2196&log=46591&row=1)
I was able to pick up both in good condition for about $80 each. There are
crimpers that are less expensive, but these are what most of the
professional shops use.
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Crimpers
I'd go to http://www.steinair.com/ for things electrical.
Linn
Ed Godfrey wrote:
>
> Listers,
> Can anyone offer up an opinion as to what would be a good choice of a
> crimper for wire terminals? Would like to start with the ring terminals
> and then work up to the pins for DB connectors.
>
> Ed Godfrey
> 40717
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | MAP sensor on GRT EIS? |
| From: | "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend(at)aurora.aero> |
Can anyone say if the Manifold Pressure sensor little box on a GRT EIS
set up gets fed with 12 volts or 5 vollts?
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025
tdt(at)aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | MAP sensor on GRT EIS? |
12
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dawson-Townsend,Timothy
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: RV10-List: MAP sensor on GRT EIS?
Can anyone say if the Manifold Pressure sensor little box on a GRT EIS set
up gets fed with 12 volts or 5 vollts?
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025
tdt(at)aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MAP sensor on GRT EIS? |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
12v, attached is the install info.
Bob
N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256769#256769
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/grtmap_122.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MAP sensor on GRT EIS? |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
12v, attached is the install info.
Bob
N442PM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256770#256770
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/grtmap_122.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend(at)aurora.aero> |
All:
Testing the trim (Safety-Trim) and trim indicator (Ray Allen), I got
just one lit bar, at the far end of the indicator range. (can't tell yet
whether it's the "up" or "down" end) Checking things, somehow I was
applying 24 volts to the indictor power! I fixed that, but the result
is the same.
Do you think I "toasted" the indicator and now it will only show that
one lit bar at the end of the scale, or is there some debugging I can do
July 22, 2009 - August 09, 2009
RV10-Archive.digest.vol-ev