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January 11, 2013 - January 31, 2013

and top speeds to Van's performance specifications I am enjoying measurabl e gains (data run taken before recent rigging tweaks yielded 187kts TAS, 65 00', 2500 RPM, 23.3"MP - about 73% power). Tracking this discussion on the list for a few years now it seems I have a much later cowl than Robin as I did not have plenum alignment problems and started off with the larger inl et rings. The James Cowl is not magic. It offers reduced drag over the Van's cowl by a smaller inlet area but (theoretically) more efficient use of the cooling air that is taken in. The trade off is on a hot day I have to put the nos e down a little more on an extended climb (say 135 knots instead of the 120 I use in my RV-8A). The set up does add significant work over the stock V an's cowl. I decided to go down this path for the same reason it seems Rob in did; the positive James Cowl track record in 2 place RVs. When I ordere d mine Will James was straight with me on customer reports of heating probl ems - and what action he took to address them. This was enough to mitigate my concerns. The last time I checked however Will no longer offers the RV-10 cowl. As Robin states the least risk, lowest work option is to stick with the sto ck Van's cowl. My decision tree was biased toward fuel efficient cross cou ntry performance. With just 60 hours and only one long cross country, I am pleased with the results. I've had the plane down for the holidays to bac k fit the ADSB receiver and to work the gripe list but this weekend it come s back out of the hangar. It's a shame the day job keeps getting in the wa y of flying. Carl -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:14 PM
Subject: Cowl Replacement Update
robin(at)painttheweb.com>> I originally placed the SJ cowl on the -10 based on the 2 place RV fleet hi story with the SJ unit. I was probably the 3rd -10 SJ cowl flying. Unfortunately the SJ -10 cowl well documented problems meant that I needed to replace the cowl on my flying -10. The smart move would have been to go with the proven factory cowl. It does everything you need it to do and ther e are 350 other -10 pilots you can have something in common with when insta lling the Vans cowl. When my 8A came on line it was time to replace the -10 cowl. I opted for the new cowl even though I will most likely be the fi rst flying production Showplanes -10 cowl because the builder has a long hi story of RV aftermarket product development and I had been in discussions w ith Bryan for about 2 years tracking his progress. He is extremely methodic al in his development approach vs. just blowing up a smaller cowl and plenu m hoping it works. My prior cowl & plenum were sold as a set intended to be used together but even a! basic measurement like the inlet holes weren't aligned. That should have been a warning to me but I already had started the assembly. Bryan on the o ther hand had done so much R&D and his goal was to develop a "no compromise s" cowl. A cowl that can fly with the standard Vans oil cooler on the wedge with no added louvers and cobbled together solutions required. When it came time I decided to support a builder & designer that gave great care in his development. I can say the quality of fiberglass far exceeds a nything ever shipped from Vans. Long story / short. The smartest solution would have been the Standard Vans cowl and it will remain so for most builders. But this cowl is great looki ng and works with the FM200 & FM300 so I am giving it a try. That is why I fly in the Experimental category for gosh sakes. Of course the first 325 ho urs I flew in the Disgruntled category but hopefully this new cowl will res olve those issues. The rest of the plane is a dream to own & fly. Robin RV-4 Sold RV-6A Sold RV-10 Flying RV-8A Flying -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Greenley Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Replacement Update --> > 9-12 months from needing to order a cowl. This is a new area for me, what i s the reason for using the showplanes cowl over vans regular cowl? Bill Greenley RV-10 builder -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:02 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Replacement Update robin(at)painttheweb.com>> Ralph, This cowl replaces the SJ cowl and plenum. Adios! This is the new Showplanes and intake system for the FM300. No Plenum for m e ever again. If one were to visit the Showplane website you can see the induction system from the front view. Basically the bottom quarter of each inlet is dedicat ed to the FI induction system. Robin "Ralph E. Capen" > wrot e: --> > Is this a new SJ RV10 cowl? I don't see it on their website.... Would like to see a front view of the dual fiberglass intake runners. Guessing you're not using a plenum..... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna Opinions, experiance and thoughts appreciated
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jan 11, 2013
Everyone has their own opinion. The Archer nav antenna - since it is well matched to the VOR horizontal polarization - works almost as well as an external antenna. I have never had an issue with it or an approach, whether ILS or VOR. The only issue is enroute, where a cross fix more than 40 nm away might be hard to get, if it's on the 'wrong' side of the airframe. For me the VOR has become a backup, since I use the GPS as primary 99.9% of the time. Besides, I'm always afraid I'll poke my eyes out on cat whiskers! Also, I have Whelan strobes in the wing tip, no issues. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392089#392089 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Antenna Opinions, experiance and thoughts appreciated
From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com>
The "cat whiskers" problem is no joke. I didn't think much of it when my fuselage was on sawhorses, but once I got it up on the gear, I realized it's right at little-kid-running-around eye height. I haven't heard of any incidents, but I think if/when I go to airshows I'll bring a couple foam clown noses or tennis balls to put on there. -Rob On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > Everyone has their own opinion. The Archer nav antenna - since it is well > matched to the VOR horizontal polarization - works almost as well as an > external antenna. I have never had an issue with it or an approach, whether > ILS or VOR. The only issue is enroute, where a cross fix more than 40 nm > away might be hard to get, if it's on the 'wrong' side of the airframe. > For me the VOR has become a backup, since I use the GPS as primary 99.9% > of the time. Besides, I'm always afraid I'll poke my eyes out on cat > whiskers! > > Also, I have Whelan strobes in the wing tip, no issues. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392089#392089 > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna Opinions, experiance and thoughts appreciated
Date: Jan 12, 2013
My painter puts blue tape streamers on the bent belly antennas so his dogs don't run into them. Robin Rob Kochman wrote: The "cat whiskers" problem is no joke. I didn't think much of it when my f uselage was on sawhorses, but once I got it up on the gear, I realized it's right at little-kid-running-around eye height. I haven't heard of any inc idents, but I think if/when I go to airshows I'll bring a couple foam clown noses or tennis balls to put on there. -Rob On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Bob Turner > wrote: o:bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>> Everyone has their own opinion. The Archer nav antenna - since it is well m atched to the VOR horizontal polarization - works almost as well as an exte rnal antenna. I have never had an issue with it or an approach, whether ILS or VOR. The only issue is enroute, where a cross fix more than 40 nm away might be hard to get, if it's on the 'wrong' side of the airframe. For me the VOR has become a backup, since I use the GPS as primary 99.9% of the time. Besides, I'm always afraid I'll poke my eyes out on cat whiskers ! Also, I have Whelan strobes in the wing tip, no issues. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392089#392089 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Antenna Opinions, experience and thoughts appreciated
Date: Jan 11, 2013
Yep - I put plastic hose with a red streamer on my belly antennas for the dogs, and for me. They are real eye pokers at just the right height to catch a dog, and me when I get carried away cleaning the belly and lean up to reach something. Good reason by itself to steer away from VOR cat whiskers. In addition to the wingtip VOR antenna option, a simple dipole antenna the attaches to the inside top of the windshield molding, feed with a coax line running up the inside of the window brace tube, is electrically just as good as a store bought external cat whisker antenna. Carl From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 7:18 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Antenna Opinions, experiance and thoughts appreciated My painter puts blue tape streamers on the bent belly antennas so his dogs don't run into them. Robin Rob Kochman wrote: The "cat whiskers" problem is no joke. I didn't think much of it when my fuselage was on sawhorses, but once I got it up on the gear, I realized it's right at little-kid-running-around eye height. I haven't heard of any incidents, but I think if/when I go to airshows I'll bring a couple foam clown noses or tennis balls to put on there. -Rob On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Bob Turner wrote: Everyone has their own opinion. The Archer nav antenna - since it is well matched to the VOR horizontal polarization - works almost as well as an external antenna. I have never had an issue with it or an approach, whether ILS or VOR. The only issue is enroute, where a cross fix more than 40 nm away might be hard to get, if it's on the 'wrong' side of the airframe. For me the VOR has become a backup, since I use the GPS as primary 99.9% of the time. Besides, I'm always afraid I'll poke my eyes out on cat whiskers! Also, I have Whelan strobes in the wing tip, no issues. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392089#392089 ========== arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ics.com .matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
My statement was correct. I have not personally worked on a C177RG, only flown them. I have reviewed what is in the POH you provided. IMHO it is pitiful. I spoke directly to the pilot/A&P/IA who was flying the C210 when it crashed, and it is powered by an IO-470 Continental, and its pump failed(at about 100 ft AGL), the boost pump is not recommended for takeoff, and he believe is inadequate to even provide takeoff fuel flow, not to mention that it takes according to TCM 6 seconds to restore power if fuel flow is interrupted. From personal experience that timeframe is about right on Lyc IO-360 as well, but at least the pump I have on my Mooney will provide enough fuel for full power, and using it has no impact on mixture, whether the mechanical pump is working or not. Just recognize your POH is 38 years old and there is far better information available today than what was generally available in 1975. Lawyers are why you don't have a revised and improved POH, not that the original was perfect. On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:04 AM, William Curtis wrote: > Kelly, > > I see my attempts at clarification has failed miserably. As this is an > RV10 list, I won't drag this out further. I would suggest however that you > review section 3 (Emergency Procedures) of the POH link I included > previously and also my post(s) on exactly what I said about how much power > is available following a mechanical fuel pump failure in each type of > aircraft. > > The only reason I responded to this thread initially was because you made > the following statement: > *You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have > worked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and > landing. * > Since I knew this not to be the case, I sought to correct the statement. > At this point I am unsure what you are still defending but alas, I will > concede. > > Lastly, I see you are now an accident investigator. Can you cite for me > the 210 accident that you have concluded was brought down 10 days ago due > to not running the fuel pump on takeoff? > > W. > > > On Jan 11, 2013, at 0:44, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > Boy are you confused. The Cessna 177RG for a long time was the only Bendix > fuel injected, Lycoming engined high wing Cessna. I haven't looked at later > models that got Lycoming engines, but there is no question that your high > wing will NOT produce the fuel pressure needed for full power without a > boost pump. Period. > The models you cite are all carbureted, and most do not have a boost pump > or mechanical pump because it isn't needed as it takes almost no pressure > to feed fuel past the needle valve when the fuel in bowl drops and lets the > valve open. Totally different than the Bendix fuel injection that requires > nearly 15 psi to allow for full power, which you won't get from a wing that > is only 6 ft above the wheels and much less above the fuel injection servo, > and probably only 2 ft or less above it in a 15 degree pitch attitude. > That Cessna is idiotic enough to not change their POH after there have > been enough documented cases of mechanical fuel pump failure that resulted > in an AD on Lycoming high pressure mechanical pumps, is simply negligence > on Cessna's part, and yes, if it came to testifying at a litigation trial, > that is exactly what I would say. > Cessna in the early 210s also did not recognize the problem and didn't > even put in boost pumps adequate to run the engine after mechanical pump > failure. > > All you are doing is pointing out the deficiencies of the 38 year old POH. > It also has no emergency checklist items to restore power before reaching > cruise altitude. How dumb is that? You aren't going to switch on boost > pump, switch tanks and check mags for both until you are at the leisure of > cruise altitude if the engine quits at 2000 ft????? Yes, I would ignore the > POH and use the boost pump for takeoff and landing, just as the low wing > planes with the same engine and injection system recommend, because the > wing position can't make enough a difference to generate the pressure > needed. Would you rather follow POH and risk an off airport landing if your > mechanical pump fails at 100 ft in the air, or be more informed and keep > flying until you are at altitude you can return to runway when engine quits > as you turn off the boost pump at above 1000ft? Since I saw a 210 totaled > for that exact reason 10 days ago, I know my choice. > Kelly > > On 1/10/2013 3:50 PM, William Curtis wrote: > > Agreed, which is why I prefaced most by specifying "fuel injected high > wing." The high wing Cessna 150/152 that I trained in also did not have > boost pumps. Most high wing carbureted engine aircraft can and do run > perfectly fine full power with only gravity feeding the fuel. > > > I know we are "out in the weeds" on this thread now but I'll restate my > original statement with clarification and expansion-- I hope: > > > -In the case of the RV10 with a Lycoming fuel injected engine, follow the > Vans suggested recommendation of *running the boost pump during takeoff and > landing*s. This is normal procedure for most low wing aircraft. > > > -For *high wing fuel injected* Cessnas, all POH that I have seen DO NOT > indicate running the fuel pump during takeoff and landings. > > > -Many, if not all, *high wing **carbureted *aircraft, including the Cessna > 150/152/172, DO NOT specify in the POH running the boost pump during > takeoff and landings. > > > W. > > > On Jan 10, 2013, at 16:51, Dj Merrill >> > wrote: > > > mailto:deej(at)deej.net >> > > > On 01/10/2013 04:30 PM, William Curtis wrote: > > > I don't > > think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" with > > fuel fed only with gravity > > > This is exactly what I am saying - my Glastar has never had any kind of > > fuel pump installed, mechanical or electrical, and it runs just fine > > with gravity fed only to a carb. > > > I've been told there are older certified aircraft that are setup the > > same way, but I don't have any specific references to share. > > > -Dj > > > -- > > Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 > > Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ > > Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/<========================= > - The RV10-List Emailnics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List====================================================; > - List Contribution Web Site -* > http://www.m================================================= > > > * > > * > > * > > > * > > * > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ==========================bsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -** > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List** > ** > _ &n--> > http://www.matronic================================================> > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
Date: Jan 11, 2013
I really haven't been following this thread until I scanned through and noticed the "early 210" part. I had a mechanical fuel pump fail in a 1960 210A with an IO-470 around 500 hours on a factory reman. This is way before the Service Letter or whatever came out explaining how the electric pump will not keep it running. I tried but ended up gliding in to an uncontrolled airfield in Colorado. It would pop every few seconds but I could NOT get it to run. Mixture change and trying low and high settings on the pump didn't change the outcome. When I slowed down to land, the prop stopped. 700$ later the following day I flew out of Blake. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly McMullen To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 7:31 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pump use My statement was correct. I have not personally worked on a C177RG, only flown them. I have reviewed what is in the POH you provided. IMHO it is pitiful. I spoke directly to the pilot/A&P/IA who was flying the C210 when it crashed, and it is powered by an IO-470 Continental, and its pump failed(at about 100 ft AGL), the boost pump is not recommended for takeoff, and he believe is inadequate to even provide takeoff fuel flow, not to mention that it takes according to TCM 6 seconds to restore power if fuel flow is interrupted. From personal experience that timeframe is about right on Lyc IO-360 as well, but at least the pump I have on my Mooney will provide enough fuel for full power, and using it has no impact on mixture, whether the mechanical pump is working or not. Just recognize your POH is 38 years old and there is far better information available today than what was generally available in 1975. Lawyers are why you don't have a revised and improved POH, not that the original was perfect. On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:04 AM, William Curtis wrote: Kelly, I see my attempts at clarification has failed miserably. As this is an RV10 list, I won't drag this out further. I would suggest however that you review section 3 (Emergency Procedures) of the POH link I included previously and also my post(s) on exactly what I said about how much power is available following a mechanical fuel pump failure in each type of aircraft. The only reason I responded to this thread initially was because you made the following statement: You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have worked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and landing. Since I knew this not to be the case, I sought to correct the statement. At this point I am unsure what you are still defending but alas, I will concede. Lastly, I see you are now an accident investigator. Can you cite for me the 210 accident that you have concluded was brought down 10 days ago due to not running the fuel pump on takeoff? W. On Jan 11, 2013, at 0:44, Kelly McMullen wrote: Boy are you confused. The Cessna 177RG for a long time was the only Bendix fuel injected, Lycoming engined high wing Cessna. I haven't looked at later models that got Lycoming engines, but there is no question that your high wing will NOT produce the fuel pressure needed for full power without a boost pump. Period. The models you cite are all carbureted, and most do not have a boost pump or mechanical pump because it isn't needed as it takes almost no pressure to feed fuel past the needle valve when the fuel in bowl drops and lets the valve open. Totally different than the Bendix fuel injection that requires nearly 15 psi to allow for full power, which you won't get from a wing that is only 6 ft above the wheels and much less above the fuel injection servo, and probably only 2 ft or less above it in a 15 degree pitch attitude. That Cessna is idiotic enough to not change their POH after there have been enough documented cases of mechanical fuel pump failure that resulted in an AD on Lycoming high pressure mechanical pumps, is simply negligence on Cessna's part, and yes, if it came to testifying at a litigation trial, that is exactly what I would say. Cessna in the early 210s also did not recognize the problem and didn't even put in boost pumps adequate to run the engine after mechanical pump failure. All you are doing is pointing out the deficiencies of the 38 year old POH. It also has no emergency checklist items to restore power before reaching cruise altitude. How dumb is that? You aren't going to switch on boost pump, switch tanks and check mags for both until you are at the leisure of cruise altitude if the engine quits at 2000 ft????? Yes, I would ignore the POH and use the boost pump for takeoff and landing, just as the low wing planes with the same engine and injection system recommend, because the wing position can't make enough a difference to generate the pressure needed. Would you rather follow POH and risk an off airport landing if your mechanical pump fails at 100 ft in the air, or be more informed and keep flying until you are at altitude you can return to runway when engine quits as you turn off the boost pump at above 1000ft? Since I saw a 210 totaled for that exact reason 10 days ago, I know my choice. Kelly On 1/10/2013 3:50 PM, William Curtis wrote: Agreed, which is why I prefaced most by specifying "fuel injected high wing." The high wing Cessna 150/152 that I trained in also did not have boost pumps. Most high wing carbureted engine aircraft can and do run perfectly fine full power with only gravity feeding the fuel. I know we are "out in the weeds" on this thread now but I'll restate my original statement with clarification and expansion-- I hope: -In the case of the RV10 with a Lycoming fuel injected engine, follow the Vans suggested recommendation of *running the boost pump during takeoff and landing*s. This is normal procedure for most low wing aircraft. -For *high wing fuel injected* Cessnas, all POH that I have seen DO NOT indicate running the fuel pump during takeoff and landings. -Many, if not all, *high wing **carbureted *aircraft, including the Cessna 150/152/172, DO NOT specify in the POH running the boost pump during takeoff and landings. W. On Jan 10, 2013, at 16:51, Dj Merrill > wrote: > On 01/10/2013 04:30 PM, William Curtis wrote: I don't think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" with fuel fed only with gravity This is exactly what I am saying - my Glastar has never had any kind of fuel pump installed, mechanical or electrical, and it runs just fine with gravity fed only to a carb. I've been told there are older certified aircraft that are setup the same way, but I don't have any specific references to share. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/<================ ========== - The RV10-List Emailnics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1 0-List======================= ====; - List Contribution Web Site -*http://www.m==================== ==== * * * * * ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com =bsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List _ &n--> http://www.matronic================== ==== get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Kelly, Apologies to list members but below is a link to the POH of a G1000 equipped Cessna 182T (2005) - all 450 pages of it. The new 182 and 172 are fuel inje cted Lycoming powered. Have you "not personally worked on" these aircraft? T his and the current POH are not 38 years old. Cessna has still not found re ason to add boost pump ON during takeoff and landings for the new fuel injec ted 172 & 182. Are the Lawyers to blame for this? https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2ijokdsmdvs8vl/C182_POH.pdf W. On Jan 11, 2013, at 21:31, Kelly McMullen wrote: > My statement was correct. I have not personally worked on a C177RG, only f lown them. I have reviewed what is in the POH you provided. > IMHO it is pitiful. > I spoke directly to the pilot/A&P/IA who was flying the C210 when it crash ed, and it is powered by an IO-470 Continental, and its pump failed(at about 100 ft AGL), the boost pump is not recommended for takeoff, and he believe i s inadequate to even provide takeoff fuel flow, not to mention that it takes according to TCM 6 seconds to restore power if fuel flow is interrupted. =46rom personal experience that timeframe is about right on Lyc IO-360 as well, bu t at least the pump I have on my Mooney will provide enough fuel for full po wer, and using it has no impact on mixture, whether the mechanical pump is w orking or not. > Just recognize your POH is 38 years old and there is far better informatio n available today than what was generally available in 1975. Lawyers are why you don't have a revised and improved POH, not that the original was perfec t. > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:04 AM, William Curtis wrote: >> Kelly, >> >> I see my attempts at clarification has failed miserably. As this is an RV 10 list, I won't drag this out further. I would suggest however that you rev iew section 3 (Emergency Procedures) of the POH link I included previously a nd also my post(s) on exactly what I said about how much power is available f ollowing a mechanical fuel pump failure in each type of aircraft. >> >> The only reason I responded to this thread initially was because you made the following statement: >> You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have wor ked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and landing . >> Since I knew this not to be the case, I sought to correct the statement. A t this point I am unsure what you are still defending but alas, I will conce de. >> >> Lastly, I see you are now an accident investigator. Can you cite for me t he 210 accident that you have concluded was brought down 10 days ago due to n ot running the fuel pump on takeoff? >> >> W. >> >> >> On Jan 11, 2013, at 0:44, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >>> >>> Boy are you confused. The Cessna 177RG for a long time was the only Bend ix fuel injected, Lycoming engined high wing Cessna. I haven't looked at lat er models that got Lycoming engines, but there is no question that your high wing will NOT produce the fuel pressure needed for full power without a boo st pump. Period. >>> The models you cite are all carbureted, and most do not have a boost pum p or mechanical pump because it isn't needed as it takes almost no pressure t o feed fuel past the needle valve when the fuel in bowl drops and lets the v alve open. Totally different than the Bendix fuel injection that requires ne arly 15 psi to allow for full power, which you won't get from a wing that is only 6 ft above the wheels and much less above the fuel injection servo, an d probably only 2 ft or less above it in a 15 degree pitch attitude. >>> That Cessna is idiotic enough to not change their POH after there have b een enough documented cases of mechanical fuel pump failure that resulted in an AD on Lycoming high pressure mechanical pumps, is simply negligence on C essna's part, and yes, if it came to testifying at a litigation trial, that i s exactly what I would say. >>> Cessna in the early 210s also did not recognize the problem and didn't e ven put in boost pumps adequate to run the engine after mechanical pump fail ure. >>> >>> All you are doing is pointing out the deficiencies of the 38 year old PO H. It also has no emergency checklist items to restore power before reaching cruise altitude. How dumb is that? You aren't going to switch on boost pump , switch tanks and check mags for both until you are at the leisure of cruis e altitude if the engine quits at 2000 ft????? Yes, I would ignore the POH a nd use the boost pump for takeoff and landing, just as the low wing planes w ith the same engine and injection system recommend, because the wing positio n can't make enough a difference to generate the pressure needed. Would you r ather follow POH and risk an off airport landing if your mechanical pump fai ls at 100 ft in the air, or be more informed and keep flying until you are a t altitude you can return to runway when engine quits as you turn off the bo ost pump at above 1000ft? Since I saw a 210 totaled for that exact reason 10 days ago, I know my choice. >>> Kelly >>> >>> On 1/10/2013 3:50 PM, William Curtis wrote: >>>> Agreed, which is why I prefaced most by specifying "fuel injected high w ing." The high wing Cessna 150/152 that I trained in also did not have boost pumps. Most high wing carbureted engine aircraft can and do run perfectly f ine full power with only gravity feeding the fuel. >>>> >>>> I know we are "out in the weeds" on this thread now but I'll restate my original statement with clarification and expansion-- I hope: >>>> >>>> -In the case of the RV10 with a Lycoming fuel injected engine, follow t he Vans suggested recommendation of *running the boost pump during takeoff a nd landing*s. This is normal procedure for most low wing aircraft. >>>> >>>> -For *high wing fuel injected* Cessnas, all POH that I have seen DO NOT indicate running the fuel pump during takeoff and landings. >>>> >>>> -Many, if not all, *high wing **carbureted *aircraft, including the Ces sna 150/152/172, DO NOT specify in the POH running the boost pump during tak eoff and landings. >>>> >>>> W. >>>> >>>> On Jan 10, 2013, at 16:51, Dj Merrill > wrote: >>>> j(at)deej.net>> >>>>> >>>>> On 01/10/2013 04:30 PM, William Curtis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't >>>>>> think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" w ith >>>>>> fuel fed only with gravity >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is exactly what I am saying - my Glastar has never had any kind of >>>>> fuel pump installed, mechanical or electrical, and it runs just fine >>>>> with gravity fed only to a carb. >>>>> >>>>> I've been told there are older certified aircraft that are setup the >>>>> same way, but I don't have any specific references to share. >>>>> >>>>> -Dj >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 >>>>> Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ >>>>> Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/<======== ================== - The RV10-L ist Emailnics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV 10-List======================= ====; - List Contribution Web Site -*http://www.m===== =================== >>>>> >>>>> * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >>> ======================== ==bsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?RV10-List >>> >>> _ &n--> http://www.matronic======= =============== >> >> >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
Bill and Kelly ..... This food fight has filled our inbox for so long ..... what's your point? Anything meaningful from this discussion has been lost ... at least on me. I, for one, could give a rat's ass what's on a high wing POH. It's relevance is totally lost on me. I'm building a low-wing fuel-injected airplane with both mechanical and electrical boost pumps. If there's a POH out there that calls for boost pump on take off and landing ...... or one that doesn't ...... they have no relevance to our RV-10s. Nobody in this food fight has any special knowledge about WHY a manufacturer does something one way or another so it's time to cut the crap. If you want to use your boost pump during takeoff and landing, by all means do it. If some anomaly rears it's ugly head during boost pump use and you're not comfortable with the change ..... then shut the darn thing off! IMHO, I think using the boost pump when close to your crash point is a good thing. So far, in this discussion, (as far as I can tell) the only downside to using the boost pump is it screws up the fuel calculations on SOME installations. If you're calculating your fuel burn time down to ounces ..... well, I think you have far more problems than will be solved here on this list. So, I recommend that we let the NTSB worry about what caused this train wreck ..... and go back to building and flying. Linn On 1/12/2013 9:42 AM, William Curtis wrote: > Kelly, > > Apologies to list members but below is a link to the POH of a G1000 > equipped Cessna 182T (2005) - all 450 pages of it. The new 182 and 172 > are fuel injected Lycoming powered. Have you "not personally worked > on" these aircraft? This and the current POH are not 38 years old. > Cessna has still not found reason to add boost pump ON during takeoff > and landings for the new fuel injected 172 & 182. Are the Lawyers to > blame for this? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2ijokdsmdvs8vl/C182_POH.pdf > > W. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2013
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
Linn, Apologies. I totally agree with your points. Kelly On 1/12/2013 8:11 AM, Linn wrote: > Bill and Kelly ..... This food fight has filled our inbox for so long > ..... what's your point? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>
Subject: Fuel pump use
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Not to fan the flames (no pun intended) but because Linn stated =9CIMHO, I think using the boost pump when close to your crash point is a good thing=9D I=99d agree w/Linn but I=99d add You definitely want it off at the scene of the crash. It could be pumping fuel to a fire if power is still making it to the pump and one forgets to turn off the fuel during the decent. Ben Westfall From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 7:12 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pump use Bill and Kelly ..... This food fight has filled our inbox for so long ..... what's your point? Anything meaningful from this discussion has been lost ... at least on me. I, for one, could give a rat's ass what's on a high wing POH. It's relevance is totally lost on me. I'm building a low-wing fuel-injected airplane with both mechanical and electrical boost pumps. If there's a POH out there that calls for boost pump on take off and landing ...... or one that doesn't ...... they have no relevance to our RV-10s. Nobody in this food fight has any special knowledge about WHY a manufacturer does something one way or another so it's time to cut the crap. If you want to use your boost pump during takeoff and landing, by all means do it. If some anomaly rears it's ugly head during boost pump use and you're not comfortable with the change ..... then shut the darn thing off! IMHO, I think using the boost pump when close to your crash point is a good thing. So far, in this discussion, (as far as I can tell) the only downside to using the boost pump is it screws up the fuel calculations on SOME installations. If you're calculating your fuel burn time down to ounces ..... well, I think you have far more problems than will be solved here on this list. So, I recommend that we let the NTSB worry about what caused this train wreck ..... and go back to building and flying. Linn On 1/12/2013 9:42 AM, William Curtis wrote: Kelly, Apologies to list members but below is a link to the POH of a G1000 equipped Cessna 182T (2005) - all 450 pages of it. The new 182 and 172 are fuel injected Lycoming powered. Have you "not personally worked on" these aircraft? This and the current POH are not 38 years old. Cessna has still not found reason to add boost pump ON during takeoff and landings for the new fuel injected 172 & 182. Are the Lawyers to blame for this? https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2ijokdsmdvs8vl/C182_POH.pdf W. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
The 'crash point' was a tongue-in-cheek reference to my landings. ;-) But you definitely have a valid point. Depending on the cause of a premature return to earth, it would be wise to shut down as many systems as possible prior to impact. After impact you may be unable to do much of anything. On both of my off-field landings I was too busy controlling the airplane to even think about doing anything after the emergency checklist. I didn't shut anything down. Great training lesson though! Linn On 1/12/2013 12:41 PM, Ben Westfall wrote: > > Not to fan the flames (no pun intended) but because Linn stated > > =9CIMHO, I think using the boost pump when close to your crash po int is > a good thing=9D > > I=99d agree w/Linn but I=99d add You definitely w ant it off at the scene > of the crash. It could be pumping fuel to a fire if power is still > making it to the pump and one forgets to turn off the fuel during the > decent. > > Ben Westfall > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cable runs
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Quick question for the brain trust. I am finishing FWF and was wondering about issues involving securing the EGT (Dynon metal braid) lines in the same cushioned clamps as the spark plug cables for a clean and tidy installation. Are they respectively shielded enough that there is no issue or is it better to secure them separately? Thanks in advance. -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392131#392131 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Mine are tied together without any issues. Rob Kermanj Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2013, at 5:01 PM, "woxofswa" wrote: > > Quick question for the brain trust. I am finishing FWF and was wondering about issues involving securing the EGT (Dynon metal braid) lines in the same cushioned clamps as the spark plug cables for a clean and tidy installation. > > Are they respectively shielded enough that there is no issue or is it better to secure them separately? > > Thanks in advance. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392131#392131 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Cable runs
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Using the Skyview setup, this is exactly what I did without any issues at all. Get a CHT spike every once in a while but that is a connection issue and not a routing issue. You will have no issues putting them all together. -----Original Message----- From: woxofswa Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 2:01 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cable runs Quick question for the brain trust. I am finishing FWF and was wondering about issues involving securing the EGT (Dynon metal braid) lines in the same cushioned clamps as the spark plug cables for a clean and tidy installation. Are they respectively shielded enough that there is no issue or is it better to secure them separately? Thanks in advance. -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392131#392131 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Backup alternator.
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Does anybody have a B&C oil filter adaptor installed with a Plane Power vacuum pump drive alternator? Just trying to see if it'll fit. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org www.mavericklsa.com C: 352-427-0285 O: 352-465-4545 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Subject: Re: Cable runs
Myron, It sure would seem like the very high voltage to the spark plugs vs. the very low voltage from the thermocouples would be a bad mix--like it would bleed over and give the EGT some kind of bizarre reading. But, I've seen it done on lots of installations and it never seems to be a problem. Has anyone seen any oddball EGT readings as a result? It does make sense from a neatness/weight/convenience/hardware count perspective to run them all together. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 2:01 PM, woxofswa wrote: > > Quick question for the brain trust. I am finishing FWF and was wondering about issues involving securing the EGT (Dynon metal braid) lines in the same cushioned clamps as the spark plug cables for a clean and tidy installation. > > Are they respectively shielded enough that there is no issue or is it better to secure them separately? > > Thanks in advance. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392131#392131 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Backup alternator.
From: Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
I have the b&c right angle oil adapter and the b&c 20 amp alternator which sure looks to be the same size as the plane power alternator. It does take a machined riser plate for each of the adapters to get the proper clearance. B&c has a kit to do this, but it wasn't on their web site Bob Newman. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 12, 2013, at 5:35 PM, Jesse Saint wrote: > > Does anybody have a B&C oil filter adaptor installed with a Plane Power vacuum pump drive alternator? Just trying to see if it'll fit. > > Jesse Saint > I-TEC, Inc. > jesse(at)itecusa.org > www.itecusa.org > www.mavericklsa.com > C: 352-427-0285 > O: 352-465-4545 > F: 815-377-3694 > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Although running AFS equipment mine are neatly tied together and all readings are rock solid. Also true of the other planes my dad and I built. It's a non issue. Bob Newman Sent from my iPhone On Jan 12, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > > Myron, > > It sure would seem like the very high voltage to the spark plugs vs. > the very low voltage from the thermocouples would be a bad mix--like > it would bleed over and give the EGT some kind of bizarre reading. > But, I've seen it done on lots of installations and it never seems to > be a problem. Has anyone seen any oddball EGT readings as a result? > It does make sense from a neatness/weight/convenience/hardware count > perspective to run them all together. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 2:01 PM, woxofswa wrote: >> >> Quick question for the brain trust. I am finishing FWF and was wondering about issues involving securing the EGT (Dynon metal braid) lines in the same cushioned clamps as the spark plug cables for a clean and tidy installation. >> >> Are they respectively shielded enough that there is no issue or is it better to secure them separately? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -------- >> Myron Nelson >> Mesa, AZ >> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392131#392131 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick & Vicki Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Backup alternator.
Date: Jan 12, 2013
Yup, works great; Bill Bainbridge at B & C is very familiar with the application and can supply all of the parts you need. Dick Sipp -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Saint Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:35 PM Subject: RV10-List: Backup alternator. Does anybody have a B&C oil filter adaptor installed with a Plane Power vacuum pump drive alternator? Just trying to see if it'll fit. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org www.mavericklsa.com C: 352-427-0285 O: 352-465-4545 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jan 13, 2013
I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such low impedance that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too easy to just use additional adel clamps... -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: Cable runs
I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by the screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of the clamp to clear the lip of the valve cover? -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: > > I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such low impedance that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too easy to just use additional adel clamps... > > -------- > Bill > WA0SYV > Aviation Partners, LLC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cable runs
On 1/13/2013 3:12 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by the > screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of the clamp > to clear the lip of the valve cover? Yes. Standard practice! Linn > > -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) > > On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: >> >> I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw >> as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an >> erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such >> low impedance that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too >> easy to just use additional adel clamps... >> >> -------- >> Bill >> WA0SYV >> Aviation Partners, LLC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2013
Yep, added washers. On Jan 13, 2013, at 3:12 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by the screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of the clamp to clear the lip of the valve cover? > > -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) > > On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: >> >> I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such low impedance that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too easy to just use additional adel clamps... >> >> -------- >> Bill >> WA0SYV >> Aviation Partners, LLC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jan 13, 2013
The new LYCOMING engines come with a bag of washers and screws that are longer than the factory installed valve cover screws. The washers go under the clamps -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392202#392202 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
That is what I do Sean, to ensure the valve cover is secure and to give the adel clamp a flat surface to rest on. On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by the > screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of the clamp to > clear the lip of the valve cover? > > -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) > > > On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: > >> >> I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw as >> the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an erroneous >> reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such low impedance >> that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too easy to just use >> additional adel clamps... >> >> -------- >> Bill >> WA0SYV >> Aviation Partners, LLC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178> >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//**files/image_620.jpg> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cable runs
From: Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2013
Yes, two did it. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 13, 2013, at 3:12 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by the screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of the clamp to clear the lip of the valve cover? > > -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) > > On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: >> >> I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve cover screw as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the chance if an erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the egt lines are such low impedance that the chance of it happening is slim. It was too easy to just use additional adel clamps... >> >> -------- >> Bill >> WA0SYV >> Aviation Partners, LLC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: Cable runs
Thanks everyone. That's what I figured, but wanted to confirm. -Sean On 1/13/13 3:35 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > That is what I do Sean, to ensure the valve cover is secure and to > give the adel clamp a flat surface to rest on. > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Sean Stephens > wrote: > > > > > I'm curious what you guys did for the lip of the valve cover by > the screws. Did you add washers to lift up the contact area of > the clamp to clear the lip of the valve cover? > > -Sean #40303 (finishing cowl) > > > On 1/13/13 9:19 AM, bill.peyton wrote: > > > > > I ran mine in a separate clamp attached to the same valve > cover screw as the ignition leads. I did not want to take the > chance if an erroneous reading with the egt. In reality, the > egt lines are such low impedance that the chance of it > happening is slim. It was too easy to just use additional > adel clamps... > > -------- > Bill > WA0SYV > Aviation Partners, LLC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392178#392178 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_620.jpg > > > =================================== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > =================================== > http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Starter
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2013
Does anybody have a Skytec 149-12PM starter? I don't have a good way to chec k this. I just need to verify that it fits/works with the 540 in the -10. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org www.mavericklsa.com C: 352-427-0285 O: 352-465-4545 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Starter
You probably already know this but its not recommended for the 540 due to possible kick back breakage. David Clifford RV-10 Builder Howell, MI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:38:17 PM Subject: RV10-List: Starter Does anybody have a Skytec 149-12PM starter? I don't have a good way to check this. I just need to verify that it fits/works with the 540 in the -10. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org www.mavericklsa.com C: 352-427-0285 O: 352-465-4545 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
Subject: Re: Starter
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
I have one on my Mooney. I don't recommend that model. It may or may not clear baffling because the solenoid is mounted on the side. Either the Skytec Nline starter or the Hartzell E Drive starter are better choices, with lower current draw, more ability to overcome torque to get piston over top of compression stroke. On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Jesse Saint wrote: > Does anybody have a Skytec 149-12PM starter? I don't have a good way to > check this. I just need to verify that it fits/works with the 540 in the > -10. > > Jesse Saint > I-TEC, Inc. > jesse(at)itecusa.org > www.itecusa.org > www.mavericklsa.com > C: 352-427-0285 > O: 352-465-4545 > F: 815-377-3694 > > Sent from my iPhone > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2013
From: "Dave Fritzsche (Building)" <dfritz(at)bpgsim.com>
Subject: Re: Another RV-10 down?
If I remember correctly, early last year this list carried a discussion regarding Lycoming raising prices of kits to the level that Aerosport and others stopped building new engines. Thus it looks like that option is off the table. Aerosport has a great reputation among the members of my local EAA chapter. That is where I was going in about a year, but now I have to rethink my options. Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Fritzsche 40813 Puyallup, WA Fuselage On 1/11/2013 9:02 AM, Dave Saylor wrote: > Jerry didn't seem to have any lack of faith in Aerosport. That says a > lot. If I had to order an engine today, that's where I'd go. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Tim Olson > wrote: > > > > > Actually, Scott and I are over 900. :) > > One of the reasons we went with Aerosport was the positive feedback > on reliability. I actually trust them very much and have had > nothing but a positive experience from them. I get the feeling that > they will bend over backwards and go further than they even > should be willing to, to support your engine. They've sent me > seals and gaskets that I should have paid for, for free, and > things like that. Over and above. > > I can tell you that on my engine, my experience with those > copper crush gaskets hasn't always been positive. It seems that > over time those can be prone to leakage. I had a leak on the > right side of my engine that was fixed by replacing the copper > crush gasket under my oil pressure adjuster on the right side. > > Certainly this isn't absolving the engine builder from > any possibility of improper torquing or a faulty component > causing an issue...nobody knows what happened yet. But, > I'm just saying, I think there are far more happy customers > of this one than disappointed ones. If you really want > an eye opener, read the Lancair list for threads on the > Performance Engines (Continental models) that they have, and > what kinds of issues they have. That can be scary. > > It will be interesting to see what was the cause on this > one....valve cover gasket? Copper crush gasket? Oil return > line? Could have been a bunch of things....could also be > an automatic quick/drain. > > We'll see. > Tim > > > On 1/11/2013 8:42 AM, Seano wrote: > > I actually thought the same thing, who wouldn't? It could > have been a > lot of other connections or accessories so we will have to > wait to see > what exactly happened. Just for reference, I have an Aerosport > IO-540-N1A5 with 300 hours. Tim O and Scott S have them too > with over > 800 hours each. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Richard McBride > > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > > > > *Sent:* Friday, January 11, 2013 5:51 AM > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Re: Another RV-10 down? > > Please disregard my previous post. I was having a > conversation off > the list but inadvertently sent it to the group. It's out of > context and in no way a negative statement. Sorry. > > Rick > > On Jan 11, 2013, at 5:37 AM, Richard McBride > > >> > wrote: > > But did you notice where his engine came from? > > Rick > > On Jan 10, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Pascal > > >> wrote: > > Unlike some other 10 accidents Jerry did > everything right. I > recall doing the engine review by pulling the cowl > after every > flight and thinking it might be overkill, looks > like Jerry did > the same thing, so whatever caused that loss of > oil pressure > happened quickly and without any sign of it in his > last > inspection, recall that we can fly these planes > with as a little > as 2.75 quarts of oil, so at least 6 quarts > drained out quickly > (if that is what happened). Much can be learned > from what > happened. BTW, I flew into aqua caliente once, and > only once, > swore I would never go back there again. (gas was > .15c cheaper a > gallon) I got beat up from the steep terrain, > high cross winds > and high oil temperatures. What Jerry did in that > terrain is > amazing, one needs to see how tough that terrain > is to set a > plane down anywhere to understand the level of > difficulty. > Pascal > *From:* Miller John > > *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:12 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > > > > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Re: Another RV-10 down? > Hope Jerry will forward to the list what happened > to his > engine...... > grumpy > > > =================================== > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > =================================== > MS - > k">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > e - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starter
From: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2013
Jesse, we have a 149-12LS installed on a 'standard' IO540-D4A5 - no problems from a performance and fit perspective. - Jason -------- Jason Kreidler 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying - #40617 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392255#392255 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
You may want to check the Vernatherm...I flew a week ago at between 10F and 20F max, and with the valve fully closed I was able to hit 210 or so. Tim On 1/14/2013 1:21 PM, Jae Chang wrote: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NbEa6c8c35s/UPRK4Cj9qsI/AAAAAAAAFFM/ZrZKkxB2UJc/s972/screenshot-20130112-190652-787.bmp > > > I noticed on my last couple of flights with the colder winter temps, > that my oil temp is riding on the lowest range around 160 to 165F in > cruise. I normally target 180F, and in the summer oil temp can get up to > 210F on the hottest days. The above link shows a sample screenshot with > OAT at 17F. I am trying to figure out some ways to increase the oil temp > going forward. > > I already have the oil cooler butterfly valve mounted on the back of the > baffle. I have mine fully closed during the entire flight. When > initially installed, fully closed meant about 90% closed. I thought the > 10% open would serve as a safety buffer in case of a failed cable. > However, i changed it so it is now about 98% closed. However, the oil > temp still hasn't risen. > > Thus, i am wondering what my next best step is. At first i thought that > the vernatherm blocked all oil flow to the cooler when cold, but > according to some searching, i read that oil is always flowing thru the > oil cooler. The vernatherm controls how much oil bypasses the cooler in > parallel. If this is correct, then i guess it is worth it to get the oil > cooler door to 100% closed? > > It just seems more like my stock Lycoming vernatherm is adjusted too low > for temps. Anybody replace their vernatherm for warmer temps? > > Also, how do you guys in colder climates deal with these issues? > > Thanks! > Jae > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
Checking the Vernatherm is easy. Remove the Vernatherm and paint the cone all black with a Sharpie. Go fly. Remove the Vernatherm again and check for a silver ring on the cone .... caused by the cone closing up the hole in the accessory case. No ring? Get a new Vernatherm. Linn On 1/14/2013 2:36 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > You may want to check the Vernatherm...I flew a week ago at > between 10F and 20F max, and with the valve fully closed > I was able to hit 210 or so. > > Tim > > > On 1/14/2013 1:21 PM, Jae Chang wrote: >> >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NbEa6c8c35s/UPRK4Cj9qsI/AAAAAAAAFFM/ZrZKkxB2UJc/s972/screenshot-20130112-190652-787.bmp >> >> >> >> I noticed on my last couple of flights with the colder winter temps, >> that my oil temp is riding on the lowest range around 160 to 165F in >> cruise. I normally target 180F, and in the summer oil temp can get up to >> 210F on the hottest days. The above link shows a sample screenshot with >> OAT at 17F. I am trying to figure out some ways to increase the oil temp >> going forward. >> >> I already have the oil cooler butterfly valve mounted on the back of the >> baffle. I have mine fully closed during the entire flight. When >> initially installed, fully closed meant about 90% closed. I thought the >> 10% open would serve as a safety buffer in case of a failed cable. >> However, i changed it so it is now about 98% closed. However, the oil >> temp still hasn't risen. >> >> Thus, i am wondering what my next best step is. At first i thought that >> the vernatherm blocked all oil flow to the cooler when cold, but >> according to some searching, i read that oil is always flowing thru the >> oil cooler. The vernatherm controls how much oil bypasses the cooler in >> parallel. If this is correct, then i guess it is worth it to get the oil >> cooler door to 100% closed? >> >> It just seems more like my stock Lycoming vernatherm is adjusted too low >> for temps. Anybody replace their vernatherm for warmer temps? >> >> Also, how do you guys in colder climates deal with these issues? >> >> Thanks! >> Jae >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
Might it be a measurement error? Linn On 1/14/2013 3:04 PM, Jae Chang wrote: > > Hmm, my temps are way off then. Thanks for the datapoints! > > Jae > > On 1/14/2013 11:36 AM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> You may want to check the Vernatherm...I flew a week ago at >> between 10F and 20F max, and with the valve fully closed >> I was able to hit 210 or so. >> >> Tim >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another RV-10 down?
From: "dhmoose" <dhmoose(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2013
As of 6 months ago, Aerosport was still building the engines for the -10, but the prices were significantly higher then what you can get a new IO540 for from Vans. I think the price was $56,000 vs $48,000 or so. Aerosport was very upfront about their inability to be competitive, but were willing to build one new or help find a good core to overhaul. David H [quote="dfritz(at)bpgsim.com"]If I remember correctly, early last year this list carried a discussion regarding Lycoming raising prices of kits to the level that Aerosport and others stopped building new engines. Thus it looks like that option is off the table. Aerosport has a great reputation among the members of my local EAA chapter. That is where I was going in about a year, but now I have to rethink my options. Dave > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Fritzsche > 40813 > Puyallup, WA > Fuselage On 1/11/2013 9:02 AM, Dave Saylor wrote: [quote] Jerry didn't seem to have any lack of faith in Aerosport. That says a lot. If I had to order an engine today, that's where I'd go. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Tim Olson wrote: Actually, Scott and I are over 900. :) One of the reasons we went with Aerosport was the positive feedback on reliability. I actually trust them very much and have had nothing but a positive experience from them. I get the feeling that they will bend over backwards and go further than they even should be willing to, to support your engine. They've sent me seals and gaskets that I should have paid for, for free, and things like that. Over and above. I can tell you that on my engine, my experience with those copper crush gaskets hasn't always been positive. It seems that over time those can be prone to leakage. I had a leak on the right side of my engine that was fixed by replacing the copper crush gasket under my oil pressure adjuster on the right side. Certainly this isn't absolving the engine builder from any possibility of improper torquing or a faulty component causing an issue...nobody knows what happened yet. But, I'm just saying, I think there are far more happy customers of this one than disappointed ones. If you really want an eye opener, read the Lancair list for threads on the Performance Engines (Continental models) that they have, and what kinds of issues they have. That can be scary. It will be interesting to see what was the cause on this one....valve cover gasket? Copper crush gasket? Oil return line? Could have been a bunch of things....could also be an automatic quick/drain. We'll see. Tim On 1/11/2013 8:42 AM, Seano wrote: > I actually thought the same thing, who wouldn't? It could have been a > lot of other connections or accessories so we will have to wait to see > what exactly happened. Just for reference, I have an Aerosport > IO-540-N1A5 with 300 hours. Tim O and Scott S have them too with over > 800 hours each. > > --- -------- David Halmos RV-10 Cowl and baffles Portland, OR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392276#392276 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
From: "Jim Berry" <jimberry(at)qwest.net>
Date: Jan 14, 2013
Jae, I flew 2 hours last week on a day at 20-25*F OAT. Mostly shooting approaches, so MAP was 12 - 17" much of the time. Oil temps were 180* plus/minus 5*. I would check your oil temp probe before getting into the vernatherm. Jim Berry N15JB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392283#392283 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2013
This thread reminded me of something. Years ago (decades actually), I knew a mechanic who swore by running two quarts lower oil quantity as a baseline in winter than summer. I never thought it completely through because I was just a renter in those days, but it might make a difference. -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392313#392313 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2013
From: Ron Zeppin <rzeppin(at)cox.net>
Subject: Oh no, another new guy...
Greetings all! I am embarking on this madcap ride known as aviation and the RV-10 is at the top of my short list. I'm fast approaching middle age, have wanted to fly since I was a child like just about every one else who gets the PPL. My wife is finishing up her Master's degree, and when she's done, I'll be jumping into getting my PPL. I live in San Tan Valley, AZ... a southeast suburb of Phoenix. After checking the Van's site, I was hoping to find a Van's club in Arizona, but they don't list one. Any builders/owners on here that live in Arizona? I would VERY much like to hook up with you to take a look at the aircraft in any stage of completion. I drive all over the southern part of the state, so pretty much anywhere from Phoenix south to the border would be withing my driving range. I also get up to Pinetop/Showlow on a semi-regular basis. I'm a very hands on person, started working on cars at 15, was into drag racing for several years, and have been a field service tech for over 20 years now. Building my own plane seems like the ultimate adventure! I'd love to hear from anyone in the area (or anyone in general!) about the RV-10, and GA in general. Cheers! Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another RV-10 down?
From: Wayne Edgerton <w.edgerton(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jan 15, 2013
I spoke with Sue at Aerosport several weeks back about another issue but she told me with the price they were being charged for the IO540 parts from Lycoming they could no longer be competitive with Vans so they've stopped offering it. If you go to their web site aerosportpower.com and select engines you'll see they no longer offer the IO 540. Wayne Edgerton N602WT Sent from my Iphone Wayne ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
I just started doing that (running less oil) with some apparent success. I haven't logged the numbers yet but my low temp warnings stopped during the last winter time flight. Actually, I've done 2 things trying to bring the oil temps up into the 165 to 200F range during cruise. I have the problem in both summer and winter. I don't have the cooling air valve. So first, I fabricated a simple plate to block some cooling air going to the oil cooler. The plate is installed where the hose exits the plenum. It's slotted so I can adjust it on the ground. Blocking about 1/3rd of the flow, most but not all low temp alarms (i.e. <165F) were suppressed. Then, during my last oil change, instead of putting in 9 Qts (to get 8Qts on the dip stick), I put in 7 Qts. During my last flight, I didn't get any low temp alarms. I'm considering going to 6 next time. My testing has not been all that rigorous. I'm just trying to get to the point where I don't get any low temp or high temp alarms during cruise. I figure that I will accept temps that fall slightly outside the 165-200 range during hot day climbs and low power descents. As I understand it, the objective on the low side is to burn off moisture, and on the high side to indicate proper engine cooling and avoid oil breakdown - but I'm not sure at what temps the oil starts to breakdown. Anyway, I think I'm where I want to be for the winter and I'll adjust as required when moving to the warmer months. Bill On 1/15/2013 1:53 AM, woxofswa wrote: > > This thread reminded me of something. Years ago (decades actually), I knew a mechanic who swore by running two quarts lower oil quantity as a baseline in winter than summer. I never thought it completely through because I was just a renter in those days, but it might make a difference. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2013
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units p laced after the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it bel ongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moistu re you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:48:54 -0500 I just started doing that (running less oil) with some apparent success. I haven't logged the numbers yet but my low temp warnings stopped during the last winter time flight. Actually, I've done 2 things trying to bring the oil temps up into the 165 to 200F range during cruise. I have the problem in both summer and winter. I don't have the cooling air valve. So first, I fabricated a simple plate to block some cooling air going to the oil cooler. The plate is installed where the hose exits the plenum. It's slotted so I can adjust it on the ground. Blocking about 1/3rd of the flow, most but not all low temp alarms (i.e. <165F) were suppressed. Then, during my last oil change, instead of putting in 9 Qts (to get 8Qts on the dip stick), I put in 7 Qts. During my last flight, I didn't get any low temp alarms. I'm considering going to 6 next time. My testing has not been all that rigorous. I'm just trying to get to the point where I don't get any low temp or high temp alarms during cruise. I figure that I will accept temps that fall slightly outside the 165-200 range during hot day climbs and low power descents. As I understand it, the objective on the low side is to burn off moisture, and on the high side to indicate proper engine cooling and avoid oil breakdown - but I'm not sure at what temps the oil starts to breakdown. Anyway, I think I'm where I want to be for the winter and I'll adjust as required when moving to the warmer months. Bill On 1/15/2013 1:53 AM, woxofswa wrote: > > This thread reminded me of something. Years ago (decades actually), I knew a mechanic who swore by running two quarts lower oil quantity as a baseline in winter than summer. I never thought it completely through because I was just a renter in those days, but it might make a differenc e. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishi ng kit and FWF kit in progress. > > ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Overstock iPads - $30.93! Save big in overstock auctions: 32GB iPads just $30.93! Limit 1/day. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/50f574db17fa474da238fst03vuc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location into account. The manual states: Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C). For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on the GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are different throughout the oil system. The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a calibrated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had an oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: > > IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units > placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, > it belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually > close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off > the moisture you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes > or more. My .02 cents worth....... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
On 1/15/2013 12:46 PM, Bill Watson wrote: snip > > The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the > sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared > with a calibrated gauge of some sort. use boiling water .... 212 @ sea level ........ or calculate the boiling point here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2oboilcalc.html Those single cup water heaters do an excellent job. Linn > I'll probably never do it but I have had an oil temp sender fail > already (reads zero or very low). > > > On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: >> >> IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending >> units placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my >> opinion, it belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is >> actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to >> boil off the moisture you guys are concerned with if your flight is >> 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... >> >> Ben Haas >> N801BH >> www.haaspowerair.com > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2013
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
Bill... I had a rather interesting discussion with a Lycoming rep at OSH a few years back on this exact topic..... I posed the question of " sup pose a builder had a very efficient oil cooler and it removed 60 -70 F h eat from the oil and the sending unit was positioned at the outflow of t he cooler... Are Lycomings built to run with 300f+ degree oil...... He t hought about it for a minute and told me the placement for the sending u nit is based on the airframe manufacturers choice and most all of them spec it to be on the discharge side of the oil cooler to mask improper b reathing cowlings.... I thought that was strange as Lycoming warrenties cooked motors, not the plane maker.... He agreed it was a poor choice f or the location of the sending unit... The take home message is when you guys see oil temps of 245f on climb ou t you can bet the actual temp is pushing 300 degrees in the motor itself .... YUCK... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:32 -0500 Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location i nto account. The manual states: Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C) . For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on t he GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are different throughout the oil system. The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a ca librated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had a n oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units p laced after the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it bel ongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moistu re you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======= ____________________________________________________________ One Trick to Stay Asleep If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this… http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/50f5ee3482c226e345d61st04vuc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2013
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
I have factory oil temp on my Mooney where the oil enters the oil galleys, whether that is from the cooler or the bypass passage. I have an EI oil temp gauge plumbed in place of the oil galley plug at front of the engine. The difference between the two is in the resolution of the factory analog gauge. The oil cooler isn't that efficient, and so it runs 205-210 at average temps, and 215-220 on a hot day climb. I doubt the sump temp is that different, as the oil that goes to the heads cools as it drains through the external tubes back to the sump, and the rest of the oil drains internally in the crankcase, never exposed to cylinder head temps. The 245 redline is based on where the factory probe is placed and data Lyc has about temps elsewhere in the engine. If high temps are a concern, run the Shell or Exxon semi-synthetic that resists the heat better than mineral oil. On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:01 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: > Bill... I had a rather interesting discussion with a Lycoming rep at OSH a > few years back on this exact topic..... I posed the question of " suppose a > builder had a very efficient oil cooler and it removed 60 -70 F heat from > the oil and the sending unit was positioned at the outflow of the > cooler... Are Lycomings built to run with 300f+ degree oil...... He thought > about it for a minute and told me the placement for the sending unit is > based on the airframe manufacturers choice and most all of them spec it to > be on the discharge side of the oil cooler to mask improper breathing > cowlings.... I thought that was strange as Lycoming warrenties cooked > motors, not the plane maker.... He agreed it was a poor choice for the > location of the sending unit... > > The take home message is when you guys see oil temps of 245f on climb out > you can bet the actual temp is pushing 300 degrees in the motor itself.... > YUCK... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:32 -0500 > > Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the > O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location into > account. The manual states: > > Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C). > For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained > between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions > > So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on the > GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are > different throughout the oil system. > > The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender > could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a > calibrated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had an > oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). > > > On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: > > > IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units > placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it > belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to > 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moisture > you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 > cents worth....... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > > * > > ====================================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ====================================tronics.com > ====================================www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > * > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *One Trick to Stay Asleep* > If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this… > <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/50f5ee3482c226e345d61st04vuc> > peaklife.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/50f5ee3482c226e345d61st04vuc> > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Cowl Replacement Update
Date: Jan 16, 2013
Someone asked to see the front view of the Showplanes cowl to review the FI inlet area. Here you go! Robin [cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDF355.5CBA37D0][cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDF355.5CBA37D0] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2013
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cowl Replacement Update
Thanks - I was one of the ones that requested a front-view... -----Original Message----- From: Robin Marks Sent: Jan 15, 2013 10:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Replacement Update Someone asked to see the front view of the Showplanes cowl to review the FI inlet area. Here you go! Robin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cowl Replacement Update
I didn't ask but thanks. Now I get it. A very different approach with the ram air resulting in a very good looking nose. Bill On 1/15/2013 10:20 PM, Robin Marks wrote: > > Someone asked to see the front view of the Showplanes cowl to review > the FI inlet area. > > Here you go! > > Robin > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cowl Replacement Update
Date: Jan 16, 2013
From: "Rhonda Bewley" <Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com>
Looks great!! Rhonda Barrett-Bewley Barrett Precision Engines 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd. Tulsa, OK 74115 (918) 835-1089 phone (918) 835-1754 fax www.barrettprecisionengines.com ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Replacement Update Someone asked to see the front view of the Showplanes cowl to review the FI inlet area. Here you go! Robin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps
I'm trying to wrap my head around this and two things come to mind: 1. 245F is an extreme redline in the same way that the Lycoming cylinder head redline of 500F or 435F continuous is a bit extreme for anything I'd want to run and maintain. So I generally wouldn't want to run at 245F whatever that actually reflects (so when does engine oil start to break down?) 2. It makes gut sense to me that the combination of the oil cooler and all the various sources of heat in the engine would combine to produce some sort of equilibrium temperature in the circulating oil. That is, while there would be differences from point to point, they wouldn't directly reflect the efficiency of the cooler or the contribution of given engine component to the heating. The location of the temp sender would never quite be that critical as long as it's somewhere in the system. Kelly, I think that is reflective of your experience with the Mooney. BTW, I'm currently scheduled for Lycoming engine school in a few months. It's some $$$ but I figure it's worth it for me since I'm still not an engine guy and want to gain some confidence there. Anyone here ever attended? Bill On 1/15/2013 7:19 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > I have factory oil temp on my Mooney where the oil enters the oil > galleys, whether that is from the cooler or the bypass passage. I have > an EI oil temp gauge plumbed in place of the oil galley plug at front > of the engine. The difference between the two is in the resolution of > the factory analog gauge. The oil cooler isn't that efficient, and so > it runs 205-210 at average temps, and 215-220 on a hot day climb. I > doubt the sump temp is that different, as the oil that goes to the > heads cools as it drains through the external tubes back to the sump, > and the rest of the oil drains internally in the crankcase, never > exposed to cylinder head temps. The 245 redline is based on where the > factory probe is placed and data Lyc has about temps elsewhere in the > engine. If high temps are a concern, run the Shell or Exxon > semi-synthetic that resists the heat better than mineral oil. > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:01 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com > > wrote: > > Bill... I had a rather interesting discussion with a Lycoming rep > at OSH a few years back on this exact topic..... I posed the > question of " suppose a builder had a very efficient oil cooler > and it removed 60 -70 F heat from the oil and the sending unit was > positioned at the outflow of the cooler... Are Lycomings built to > run with 300f+ degree oil...... He thought about it for a minute > and told me the placement for the sending unit is based on the > airframe manufacturers choice and most all of them spec it to be > on the discharge side of the oil cooler to mask improper breathing > cowlings.... I thought that was strange as Lycoming warrenties > cooked motors, not the plane maker.... He agreed it was a poor > choice for the location of the sending unit... > > The take home message is when you guys see oil temps of 245f on > climb out you can bet the actual temp is pushing 300 degrees in > the motor itself.... YUCK... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com <http://www.haaspowerair.com> > > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com > > > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:32 -0500 > > Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted > in the O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending > unit location into account. The manual states: > > Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is > 245F (118C). For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature > should be maintained between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in > level flight cruise conditions > > So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is > generated on the GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that > the actual temps are different throughout the oil system. > > The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the > sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading > compared with a calibrated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never > do it but I have had an oil temp sender fail already (reads zero > or very low). > > > On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com > wrote: >> >> IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending >> units placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my >> opinion, it belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, >> it is actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then >> enough to boil off the moisture you guys are concerned with if >> your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... >> >> Ben Haas >> N801BH >> www.haaspowerair.com <http://www.haaspowerair.com/> > > : 2638/5534 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: Bottom wing skin question
Date: Jan 16, 2013
I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the holes that get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If so, I've already riveted on one of the skins. Can it just be machine countersunk??? The instructions don't mention dimpling or countersinking (atleast up to this point) the screw holes, but as has been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more vague the instructions get. Thanks in advance for any help, Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2013
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bottom wing skin question
Is the nutplate for a countersunk type screw? Is it on the wing airfoil? If yes, it should be a countersunk type screw and nutplate - and the #19 hole should be dimpled. Machine countersinking would remove too much metal to hold (IMHO) the parts together. I think you are referring to the area on the underside of the fuselage where the fuselage skin overlaps the wing skin - which would mean yes to all of the above.... -----Original Message----- From: Bill and Tami Britton Sent: Jan 16, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: RV10-List: Bottom wing skin question I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the holes that get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If so, I've already riveted on one of the skins. Can it just be machine countersunk??? The instructions don't mention dimpling or countersinking (atleast up to this point) the screw holes, but as has been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more vague the instructions get. Thanks in advance for any help, Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bottom wing skin question
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2013
Bill, After the tail, Vans assumes you are an expert on these things and doesn't d ocument what they consider obvious. The fuselage plans are even less verbos e. Yes, the screw hole needs dimpled. You are going to have the wing root cove r piece screwed into those holes. Both pieces need to be dimpled to allow e verything to seat properly. Countersinking where you need to shouldn't be an issue where you've already r iveted the wing skin. Bob Sent from my iPhone On Jan 16, 2013, at 11:05 AM, "Bill and Tami Britton" wro te: I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the holes t hat get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If so, I've already rivete d on one of the skins. Can it just be machine countersunk??? The instructi ons don't mention dimpling or countersinking (atleast up to this point) the s crew holes, but as has been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more vague the instructions get. Thanks in advance for any help, Bill ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch>
Subject: Re: Bottom wing skin question
Date: Jan 16, 2013
Hi Bill, On the bottom side of the wings the skin and rib should be dimpled for the nutplates. You can confirm by checking the nut plates called out on page 20-6 (K1100-08). I was unclear on this and machine countersunk them at the same time as the top skins (I was getting everything done real fast that day ;-) ). The result is so-so - its functionally OK but the hole gets slightly enlarged since the 2 sheets are not quite thick enough to take the countersink (unlike the top skins). If you have a pneumatic squeezer, dimpling two sheets at once should be easy. Cheers, Gordon Anderson 41015 Switzerland On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Bill and Tami Britton wrote: > I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the holes that get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If so, I've already riveted on one of the skins. Can it just be machine countersunk??? The instructions don't mention dimpling or countersinking (atleast up to this point) the screw holes, but as has been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more vague the instructions get. > > Thanks in advance for any help, > Bill > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rear baffling
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2013
What is the consensus on rear cowling baffle length. I think mine is 2inches and I see fold marks where air might be escaping. Is shorter better? Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Rear baffling
Date: Jan 16, 2013
Not sure on what length you are referring to. The thumb rule I know is there should be 3/8" to 1/2" clearance between the top of the baffle aluminum backing plate and the cowl. The baffle material will of course be longer to both extend below the top and attach to the aluminum plate, bridge the gap to the cowl and have another inch or more to bend over to form with the top of the cowl so that it does not get blown out from the cowl intake air. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Seano Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:23 PM Subject: RV10-List: Rear baffling What is the consensus on rear cowling baffle length. I think mine is 2inches and I see fold marks where air might be escaping. Is shorter better? Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort of retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some use a hinge section like Mike did as seen here: http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, have you seen them raise up at all? -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Sean, I don't use anything to retain the pin and I've never seen movement. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:39 AM Subject: RV10-List: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer? > > I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort of > retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some use a > hinge section like Mike did as seen here: > http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . > > As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these > pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, > have you seen them raise up at all? > > -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick & Vicki Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Sean, I don't use any type of retainer, have not seen any movement but I do usually hook that pin under the horizontal pin. Dick Sipp -----Original Message----- From: Sean Stephens Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: RV10-List: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer? I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort of retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some use a hinge section like Mike did as seen here: http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, have you seen them raise up at all? -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Mine raise up all the time. To prevent damage and prevent raising, here's what I do: I put a big stripe of RTV on the engine mount, so that the pin angle can't wear them. Then, on the engine mount I have an Adel clamp around it, nice and snug. The ear on the clamp I spin in place so that when the pin tries coming up, it hits the clamp and is stopped. To remove the cowl I just spin the adel clamp out of the way so I can pull the pin. It's crude but it does work to keep the pin from rising. Tim On 1/17/2013 8:39 AM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort of > retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some use a > hinge section like Mike did as seen here: > http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . > > As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these > pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, > have you seen them raise up at all? > > -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Mine do ride up and I don't have a good solution yet. It will ride up about half way to that engine mount bolt shown in your photo. That is, 3 rivets. What I've done is put some plastic tubing over the end so it doesn't scratch the engine mounts as it moves around. The tubing also makes it easier to pull out. I have about the same length 'tag end' that is shown in your photo. I keep thinking that some tweak to the tag end will stop it from moving or at least let the horizontal pin stop it but no success so far. I'm looking for ideas too. Mike's solution looks solid but I'd like to avoid adding another 2 screws to the whole cowling removal process. I think I will adoptit unless others have better ideas. BTW, I have the Aerosport Cowl pin covers for the horizontal pins. I love the look and functionality of the these covers. But the pin on one side vibrates and moves forward to hit the front of the cowl. No problem but also no doubt that unretained, the pin would go right thru the propeller arc (I think someone here has proven that). I love the whole cowl pin system (except of course for the bottom pins which I think most have eliminated). A fresh coating of clean grease on re-installation makes them all easy to insert and remove. Old dirty grease or just thrown off oil makes everything tough. Bill On 1/17/2013 9:39 AM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort > of retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some > use a hinge section like Mike did as seen here: > http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . > > As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these > pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, > have you seen them raise up at all? > > -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
I almost forgot...I did add plastic tubing too. It sometimes falls off, but I did put some on the pin angle. Tim On 1/17/2013 9:43 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Mine do ride up and I don't have a good solution yet. It will ride up > about half way to that engine mount bolt shown in your photo. That is, > 3 rivets. > > What I've done is put some plastic tubing over the end so it doesn't > scratch the engine mounts as it moves around. The tubing also makes it > easier to pull out. I have about the same length 'tag end' that is > shown in your photo. > > I keep thinking that some tweak to the tag end will stop it from moving > or at least let the horizontal pin stop it but no success so far. > > I'm looking for ideas too. Mike's solution looks solid but I'd like to > avoid adding another 2 screws to the whole cowling removal process. I > think I will adoptit unless others have better ideas. > > BTW, I have the Aerosport Cowl pin covers for the horizontal pins. I > love the look and functionality of the these covers. But the pin on one > side vibrates and moves forward to hit the front of the cowl. No > problem but also no doubt that unretained, the pin would go right thru > the propeller arc (I think someone here has proven that). > > I love the whole cowl pin system (except of course for the bottom pins > which I think most have eliminated). A fresh coating of clean grease on > re-installation makes them all easy to insert and remove. Old dirty > grease or just thrown off oil makes everything tough. > > Bill > > On 1/17/2013 9:39 AM, Sean Stephens wrote: >> >> I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort >> of retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some >> use a hinge section like Mike did as seen here: >> http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . >> >> As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these >> pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, >> have you seen them raise up at all? >> >> -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Strut attach brackets
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2013
My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger s truts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. Sent from my iPhone

________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Yep. I'm talking about the amount of material that folds forward from the rear baffling. I have 2" and can see areas that air escapes past. It looks like the material is folding. Just not sure if it was shorter it would work better. I don't want it to flip to the other side though. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 16, 2013, at 18:59, "Carl Froehlich" wrote: > > Not sure on what length you are referring to. The thumb rule I know is > there should be 3/8" to 1/2" clearance between the top of the baffle > aluminum backing plate and the cowl. The baffle material will of course be > longer to both extend below the top and attach to the aluminum plate, bridge > the gap to the cowl and have another inch or more to bend over to form with > the top of the cowl so that it does not get blown out from the cowl intake > air. > > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Seano > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:23 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Rear baffling > > > What is the consensus on rear cowling baffle length. I think mine is 2inches > and I see fold marks where air might be escaping. Is shorter better? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Strut attach brackets
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2013
The new PlaneAround aluminum anodized brackets are wider to accept aftermark et struts and of course work great for stock struts. They are 3/8" at the op ening. Sent from my iPhone

________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
I've often wondered the same thing. Mine is maybe 1.5-2" of excess, so I probably have a 1-1.5" contact area with the top cowl, with all baffling curved inward to form a chamber. Shorter would make it stiffer and maybe not give a smooth curved seal, I'm not sure. I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, I'd think that yours are probably normal length. Mine are cut into a little shorter strips than some people may use, acting as pleats because of the curve of the seal. If you have a one piece rear seal for instance, I don't think you'd get the flexibility enough to make a good seal. By getting the slits and overlaps right, it seems like it goes together real well. Tim On 1/17/2013 10:20 AM, Seano wrote: > > Yep. I'm talking about the amount of material that folds forward from > the rear baffling. I have 2" and can see areas that air escapes past. > It looks like the material is folding. Just not sure if it was > shorter it would work better. I don't want it to flip to the other > side though. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jan 17, 2013
I lock in the vertical cowl pins by having the side pins insert over the top of them. The side pins are inserted from inside the plane. They come through the firewall exactly over the top of the 90 degree bend at the top of the vertical pins. This also eliminates the side pin retainer at the front of the cowl as the pins are retained inside the plane at the second bulkhead rib. I did this on two planes and would (will?) do it again. Carl On Jan 17, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I almost forgot...I did add plastic tubing too. It sometimes falls > off, but I did put some on the pin angle. > Tim > > > On 1/17/2013 9:43 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >> >> Mine do ride up and I don't have a good solution yet. It will ride up >> about half way to that engine mount bolt shown in your photo. That is, >> 3 rivets. >> >> What I've done is put some plastic tubing over the end so it doesn't >> scratch the engine mounts as it moves around. The tubing also makes it >> easier to pull out. I have about the same length 'tag end' that is >> shown in your photo. >> >> I keep thinking that some tweak to the tag end will stop it from moving >> or at least let the horizontal pin stop it but no success so far. >> >> I'm looking for ideas too. Mike's solution looks solid but I'd like to >> avoid adding another 2 screws to the whole cowling removal process. I >> think I will adoptit unless others have better ideas. >> >> BTW, I have the Aerosport Cowl pin covers for the horizontal pins. I >> love the look and functionality of the these covers. But the pin on one >> side vibrates and moves forward to hit the front of the cowl. No >> problem but also no doubt that unretained, the pin would go right thru >> the propeller arc (I think someone here has proven that). >> >> I love the whole cowl pin system (except of course for the bottom pins >> which I think most have eliminated). A fresh coating of clean grease on >> re-installation makes them all easy to insert and remove. Old dirty >> grease or just thrown off oil makes everything tough. >> >> Bill >> >> On 1/17/2013 9:39 AM, Sean Stephens wrote: >>> >>> I am wondering what others have done with regards to using some sort >>> of retainer on the vertical pins on the aft lower cowl. I seen some >>> use a hinge section like Mike did as seen here: >>> http://www.azcloudflyer.com/finish/IMG_0291.jpg . >>> >>> As there is nothing in the plans I am wondering if a retainer on these >>> pins is really needed. Those flying without retainers on these pins, >>> have you seen them raise up at all? >>> >>> -Sean #40303 (still trying to check off the cowl section) > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
I went with the silicone and love it. It worked suprisingly well. A bit thicker and with alot more body. A minimal number of separate pieces to complete the job. The corners worked well. Looks great and would seem to wear very well. Very well sealed. Recently, I was having some trouble with my custom latch on my oil door. One of the things I added was some of the silicone baffling material around the oil door to seal it up. Previously, the air pressure would significantly deform the door by pushing the edges out. Adding strips of silicone reduced that significantly. Need a pic or two. Bill On 1/17/2013 11:59 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's > supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are > a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Bill, I'm very interested in your oil door pics. I have the aftermarket hinge too and can see the edges bulging at cruise speeds. I've been thinking of ways to fix this. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 17, 2013, at 11:04, Bill Watson wrote: > > I went with the silicone and love it. It worked suprisingly well. A bit thicker and with alot more body. A minimal number of separate pieces to complete the job. The corners worked well. Looks great and would seem to wear very well. Very well sealed. > > Recently, I was having some trouble with my custom latch on my oil door. One of the things I added was some of the silicone baffling material around the oil door to seal it up. Previously, the air pressure would significantly deform the door by pushing the edges out. Adding strips of silicone reduced that significantly. Need a pic or two. > > Bill > > On 1/17/2013 11:59 AM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's >> supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are >> a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Strut attach brackets
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 18, 2013
Sean, If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones back please let me know? Warm regards Patrick On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano wrote: > My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone >
> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
You might want to consider the McFarlane cowl saver silicone. It is treated on one side so that it is slippery to the cowling, avoiding transfer of vibration and wear to the cowl. Of course it costs a bit more. You will need to figure from your originals how much you need, as you don't want to pay for a lot left over. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I've often wondered the same thing. Mine is maybe 1.5-2" of excess, so > I probably have a 1-1.5" contact area with the top cowl, with all > baffling curved inward to form a chamber. Shorter would make it > stiffer and maybe not give a smooth curved seal, I'm not sure. > I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's > supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are > a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, > I'd think that yours are probably normal length. Mine are cut > into a little shorter strips than some people may use, acting > as pleats because of the curve of the seal. If you have a > one piece rear seal for instance, I don't think you'd get the > flexibility enough to make a good seal. By getting the slits > and overlaps right, it seems like it goes together real well. > > Tim > > > On 1/17/2013 10:20 AM, Seano wrote: > >> >> Yep. I'm talking about the amount of material that folds forward from >> the rear baffling. I have 2" and can see areas that air escapes past. >> It looks like the material is folding. Just not sure if it was >> shorter it would work better. I don't want it to flip to the other >> side though. >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Center Console with O2 tank
I'm just finishing up a center console project that I thought I'd share. After enjoying some of the high altitude capabilities of the '10 when out west last year, I wanted to be able easily carry oxygen for high flying and geezer revival as needed. The solution was a center console with a tank in it. A tank and console that could be easily removed when desired. One design point involved space. We've become very accustomed to having unobstructed room between the seats and didn't really want to give that up. So whatever went in there needed to have the smallest profile possible while still holding the tank and acting as an arm rest. An it still needed to be easily removeable. The build is documented here: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=8533 (ignore the two 1/16/2013 items - I can't figure out how to delete them) I've only flown with it once and it seems to be working great - especially the iPad RAM mount. More testing this weekend. Bill "ready to suck some O2" Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2013
From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
The Cowl Saver material from McFarlane is what I used. One area I could not get it to conform and fit right was at the front of the engine around the intake openings and around the front of the case. There I used the supplied Vans material and glued a strip of the cowl saver material on the inside of the top cowling where the Vans material meets the cowl. I can't remember how mush I purchased feet wise but it was around $100 and I feel will be well worth the added expense in vibration reduction. David Clifford RV-10 Builder Howell, MI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:11:25 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear baffling You might want to consider the McFarlane cowl saver silicone. It is treated on one side so that it is slippery to the cowling, avoiding transfer of vibration and wear to the cowl. Of course it costs a bit more. You will need to figure from your originals how much you need, as you don't want to pay for a lot left over. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Tim Olson < Tim(at)myrv10.com > wrote: I've often wondered the same thing. Mine is maybe 1.5-2" of excess, so I probably have a 1-1.5" contact area with the top cowl, with all baffling curved inward to form a chamber. Shorter would make it stiffer and maybe not give a smooth curved seal, I'm not sure. I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, I'd think that yours are probably normal length. Mine are cut into a little shorter strips than some people may use, acting as pleats because of the curve of the seal. If you have a one piece rear seal for instance, I don't think you'd get the flexibility enough to make a good seal. By getting the slits and overlaps right, it seems like it goes together real well. Tim On 1/17/2013 10:20 AM, Seano wrote:
Yep. I'm talking about the amount of material that folds forward from the rear baffling. I have 2" and can see areas that air escapes past. It looks like the material is folding. Just not sure if it was shorter it would work better. I don't want it to flip to the other side though. ==== ============================== == arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?RV10-List ==== ============================== == http://forums.matronics.com ==== ============================== == le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution ==== ============================== ==
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Thanks for the input. I may try this and use my old stuff as patterns. ----- Original Message ----- From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:25 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear baffling The Cowl Saver material from McFarlane is what I used. One area I could not get it to conform and fit right was at the front of the engine around the intake openings and around the front of the case. There I used the supplied Vans material and glued a strip of the cowl saver material on the inside of the top cowling where the Vans material meets the cowl. I can't remember how mush I purchased feet wise but it was around $100 and I feel will be well worth the added expense in vibration reduction. David Clifford RV-10 Builder Howell, MI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:11:25 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear baffling You might want to consider the McFarlane cowl saver silicone. It is treated on one side so that it is slippery to the cowling, avoiding transfer of vibration and wear to the cowl. Of course it costs a bit more. You will need to figure from your originals how much you need, as you don't want to pay for a lot left over. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Tim Olson wrote: I've often wondered the same thing. Mine is maybe 1.5-2" of excess, so I probably have a 1-1.5" contact area with the top cowl, with all baffling curved inward to form a chamber. Shorter would make it stiffer and maybe not give a smooth curved seal, I'm not sure. I've also been toying with the idea of switching from the Van's supplied stuff to silicone, but most silicone gasket seals are a tad thicker, which may change things too. At any rate, I'd think that yours are probably normal length. Mine are cut into a little shorter strips than some people may use, acting as pleats because of the curve of the seal. If you have a one piece rear seal for instance, I don't think you'd get the flexibility enough to make a good seal. By getting the slits and overlaps right, it seems like it goes together real well. Tim On 1/17/2013 10:20 AM, Seano wrote: Yep. I'm talking about the amount of material that folds forward from the rear baffling. I have 2" and can see areas that air escapes past. It looks like the material is folding. Just not sure if it was shorter it would work better. I don't want it to flip to the other side though. arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>
Subject: Center Console with O2 tank
Date: Jan 17, 2013
Bill that looks like a great execution of your design goals. Nice job. It also looks like a hell of a lot of work!! Ben Westfall -----Original Message----- I'm just finishing up a center console project that I thought I'd share. After enjoying some of the high altitude capabilities of the '10 when out west last year, I wanted to be able easily carry oxygen for high flying and geezer revival as needed. The solution was a center console with a tank in it. A tank and console that could be easily removed when desired. One design point involved space. We've become very accustomed to having unobstructed room between the seats and didn't really want to give that up. So whatever went in there needed to have the smallest profile possible while still holding the tank and acting as an arm rest. An it still needed to be easily removeable. The build is documented here: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&cate gory=8533 (ignore the two 1/16/2013 items - I can't figure out how to delete them) I've only flown with it once and it seems to be working great - especially the iPad RAM mount. More testing this weekend. Bill "ready to suck some O2" Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jan 18, 2013
Mine have never moved and I don't have anything holding them. Although, my horizontal side pins do sit nicely over the top of the bend. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete and flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392566#392566 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Center Console with O2 tank
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jan 18, 2013
Geeez, Bill. It looks great, but you must be some kind of masochist. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete and flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392570#392570 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear baffling
From: "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>
Date: Jan 18, 2013
I ended up spending a lot of time bending a (I think it was.090") thick piece of alum. the shape of the cowl and now have a great oil door. I had to stiffen it also. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392621#392621 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2013
From: <mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Center Console with O2 tank
This is what one might face as a former builder. I'm enjoying the flying... a lot.... but the shop is all warmed up and I still feel the need to build. Bill "first offender trying to stay out of jail" Watson ---- johngoodman wrote: > > Geeez, Bill. > It looks great, but you must be some kind of masochist. > John > > -------- > #40572 Phase One complete and flying. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392570#392570 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
From: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2013
Mine have not moved and bottom hinges have not cracked. All stock. -------- Wayne G. 12/01/2011 TT= 95 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392637#392637 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Thanks for the input everyone. I have a feeling a lot has to do with how "perfect" you built those hinges. If you got them just right, the pin is more likely to move. If you are like me and you didn't get them exact, the pin is a little tight. So what I'm saying is that those of you who don't see them move probably didn't get them perfect. :) Ha! -Sean #40303 (oil door) On 1/19/13 10:07 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > > Mine have not moved and bottom hinges have not cracked. All stock. > > -------- > Wayne G. > 12/01/2011 > TT= 95 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392637#392637 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Date: Jan 19, 2013
I second that.....I am only half perfect. :) But the amount that the pin moves does not concern me...... Rene' N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Stephens Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer? Thanks for the input everyone. I have a feeling a lot has to do with how "perfect" you built those hinges. If you got them just right, the pin is more likely to move. If you are like me and you didn't get them exact, the pin is a little tight. So what I'm saying is that those of you who don't see them move probably didn't get them perfect. :) Ha! -Sean #40303 (oil door) On 1/19/13 10:07 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > --> > > Mine have not moved and bottom hinges have not cracked. All stock. > > -------- > Wayne G. > 12/01/2011 > TT= 95 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392637#392637 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
I'm looking for an appropriate spot to install the GPS antenna (puck teardrop style) for the Garmin unit and have read several posts of locations used by builders (i.e. cabin top, top of panel, top of coming before firewall and under the top cowl forward of the firewall. The Garmin GTN-750 GPS antenna requires a ground plane if installed on composites, which isn't a real problem (compared with to my TCAS mount challenge!). Is there any structural disadvantage of mounting the GPS antenna on the cabin top, as I'll need four attachment point (was thinking of using rivnuts and embedding them in the glass top and using a mesh ground plane under the GPS antenna. The main disadvantage of this installation is the you need to drill through the cabin top for the antenna cable! The other option is just to mount the antenna on the front panel, however are there any issues with interference from any other avionics if located here? I don't fancy mounting the antenna firewall forward! Your thoughts would be very much appreciated please. Warm regards Patrick On 18/01/2013, at 6:38 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > Sean, > > If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones back please let me know? > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano wrote: > >> My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >>
>> >> >>
> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: jim(at)JimVillani.com
Date: Jan 19, 2013
Firewall forward Works great!!! I have 3 mounted an a Vans RV12 mount. Great coverage... Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 09:22:55 Subject: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location I'm looking for an appropriate spot to install the GPS antenna (puck teardrop style) for the Garmin unit and have read several posts of locations used by builders (i.e. cabin top, top of panel, top of coming before firewall and under the top cowl forward of the firewall. The Garmin GTN-750 GPS antenna requires a ground plane if installed on composites, which isn't a real problem (compared with to my TCAS mount challenge!). Is there any structural disadvantage of mounting the GPS antenna on the cabin top, as I'll need four attachment point (was thinking of using rivnuts and embedding them in the glass top and using a mesh ground plane under the GPS antenna. The main disadvantage of this installation is the you need to drill through the cabin top for the antenna cable! The other option is just to mount the antenna on the front panel, however are there any issues with interference from any other avionics if located here? I don't fancy mounting the antenna firewall forward! Your thoughts would be very much appreciated please. Warm regards Patrick On 18/01/2013, at 6:38 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > Sean, > > If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones back please let me know? > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano wrote: > >> My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >>
>> >> >>
> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Guys On page 10-21, the manual says "don't install any rivets in the F-1014 Aft Deck in the area of the F-1011 Bulkhead", which means that, at that time, one should not rivet the F-1011B Stop/Doubler and the F-1011D Attachment Bar Support Angle to the F-1014 Aft Deck. Although I don't know why, that's Ok. I suppose that that should be done when attaching the Empennage to the Tail cone, but I don't find anything on Section 11. And the problem is that I can't find anywhere else in the Manual when to rivet this parts, and with which rivets . Can someone please help? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Any photos please Jim? Any heating issues with the antenna? Warm regards Patrick On 20/01/2013, at 9:24 AM, jim(at)jimvillani.com wrote: > > Firewall forward Works great!!! > I have 3 mounted an a Vans RV12 mount. > Great coverage... > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> > Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 09:22:55 > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location > > > I'm looking for an appropriate spot to install the GPS antenna (puck teardrop style) for the Garmin unit and have read several posts of locations used by builders (i.e. cabin top, top of panel, top of coming before firewall and under the top cowl forward of the firewall. > > The Garmin GTN-750 GPS antenna requires a ground plane if installed on composites, which isn't a real problem (compared with to my TCAS mount challenge!). > > Is there any structural disadvantage of mounting the GPS antenna on the cabin top, as I'll need four attachment point (was thinking of using rivnuts and embedding them in the glass top and using a mesh ground plane under the GPS antenna. The main disadvantage of this installation is the you need to drill through the cabin top for the antenna cable! > > The other option is just to mount the antenna on the front panel, however are there any issues with interference from any other avionics if located here? > > I don't fancy mounting the antenna firewall forward! > > Your thoughts would be very much appreciated please. > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 18/01/2013, at 6:38 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > >> >> Sean, >> >> If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones back please let me know? >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano wrote: >> >>> My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jan 19, 2013
Mine is on top behind the baggage area, on the metal tailcone so the ground plane is a non issue. It has never failed to pull in plenty of satellites. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392672#392672 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger Standley" <taildragon(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
Date: Jan 19, 2013
We need to be careful as to what we consider "perfect". Some might consider perfect to be that the stress on each eye-let on each of the six hinges to be the same and carrying their fair share of the load. That being the case, the shorter hinge pins would be easier to pull than the longer hinge pins. Its Saturday night...gee, I wish the wife felt better so we could go out instead of being totally irrelevant on this list... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Stephens<mailto:sean(at)stephensville.com> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 2:01 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer? > Thanks for the input everyone. I have a feeling a lot has to do with how "perfect" you built those hinges. If you got them just right, the pin is more likely to move. If you are like me and you didn't get them exact, the pin is a little tight. So what I'm saying is that those of you who don't see them move probably didn't get them perfect. :) Ha! -Sean #40303 (oil door) On 1/19/13 10:07 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > > > Mine have not moved and bottom hinges have not cracked. All stock. > > -------- > Wayne G. > 12/01/2011 > TT= 95 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392637#392637 .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392637#392637> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List igator?RV10-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
Date: Jan 20, 2013
I have two Garmin GPS antenna firewall forward on the 8A and it works well. The only issue is Garmin suggests 6" separation and staggered from what I am told. No way I would put them on my dash. Just too in your face. I try to keep th e dash completely free of items. Robin [cid:image007.jpg(at)01CDF66F.1E97A5B0][cid:image008.jpg(at)01CDF66F.1E97A5B0][ci d:image009.jpg(at)01CDF66F.1E97A5B0] -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Pulis Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 4:31 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location --> > Any photos please Jim? Any heating issues with the antenna? Warm regards Patrick On 20/01/2013, at 9:24 AM, jim(at)jimvillani.com wr ote: .com> > > Firewall forward Works great!!! > I have 3 mounted an a Vans RV12 mount. > Great coverage... > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au<mailto:rv10free2fly(at)yahoo. com.au>> > Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 09:22:55 > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com> > Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location > > --> > > > I'm looking for an appropriate spot to install the GPS antenna (puck tear drop style) for the Garmin unit and have read several posts of locations us ed by builders (i.e. cabin top, top of panel, top of coming before firewall and under the top cowl forward of the firewall. > > The Garmin GTN-750 GPS antenna requires a ground plane if installed on c omposites, which isn't a real problem (compared with to my TCAS mount chall enge!). > > Is there any structural disadvantage of mounting the GPS antenna on the c abin top, as I'll need four attachment point (was thinking of using rivnuts and embedding them in the glass top and using a mesh ground plane under t he GPS antenna. The main disadvantage of this installation is the you need to drill through the cabin top for the antenna cable! > > The other option is just to mount the antenna on the front panel, however are there any issues with interference from any other avionics if located here? > > I don't fancy mounting the antenna firewall forward! > > Your thoughts would be very much appreciated please. > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 18/01/2013, at 6:38 AM, Patrick Pulis > wrote: > >> --> > >> >> Sean, >> >> If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones b ack please let me know? >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano > wrote: >> >>> My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept big ger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: jim(at)JimVillani.com
Date: Jan 20, 2013
I will get some Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:01:10 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location Any photos please Jim? Any heating issues with the antenna? Warm regards Patrick On 20/01/2013, at 9:24 AM, jim(at)jimvillani.com wrote: > > Firewall forward Works great!!! > I have 3 mounted an a Vans RV12 mount. > Great coverage... > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> > Sender: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 09:22:55 > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Garmin GPS Antenna Location > > > I'm looking for an appropriate spot to install the GPS antenna (puck teardrop style) for the Garmin unit and have read several posts of locations used by builders (i.e. cabin top, top of panel, top of coming before firewall and under the top cowl forward of the firewall. > > The Garmin GTN-750 GPS antenna requires a ground plane if installed on composites, which isn't a real problem (compared with to my TCAS mount challenge!). > > Is there any structural disadvantage of mounting the GPS antenna on the cabin top, as I'll need four attachment point (was thinking of using rivnuts and embedding them in the glass top and using a mesh ground plane under the GPS antenna. The main disadvantage of this installation is the you need to drill through the cabin top for the antenna cable! > > The other option is just to mount the antenna on the front panel, however are there any issues with interference from any other avionics if located here? > > I don't fancy mounting the antenna firewall forward! > > Your thoughts would be very much appreciated please. > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 18/01/2013, at 6:38 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > >> >> Sean, >> >> If I owe you anything for the brackets or if you'd like the nylon ones back please let me know? >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 18/01/2013, at 2:28 AM, Seano wrote: >> >>> My new planearound anodized aluminum brackets are widened to accept bigger struts. The opening is 3/8" they work perfect for stock struts too. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jan 19, 2013
Com 1 on belly, com 2 is Archer clone in wingtip. Nav is Archer in other wingtip. Only antennas on top are gps and ELT. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392689#392689 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Antenna Location
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Comm 1 and 2 are on the belly underneath the seats for me. All my GPS anten nas (and GDL39) are under the cowl. All work great!! -Mike Kraus RV-4 sold :-( RV-10 flying :-) KitFox SS7 Radial building :-) On Jan 20, 2013, at 6:22 AM, "Bob Turner" wrote: > > Com 1 on belly, com 2 is Archer clone in wingtip. Nav is Archer in other w ingtip. Only antennas on top are gps and ELT. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392689#392689 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > >

________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vertical Lower Cowl Pin Retainer?
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
> So what I'm saying is that those of you who don't see them move probably > didn't get them perfect. Ha! OR, Maybe those of us who keep our props balanced and don't have nose shimmy, eliminated the vibration that causes the pins to move... [Wink] John -------- #40572 Phase One complete and flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392700#392700 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: FW: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Ok, boys, with the help of another -10 builder I just discovered that my manual doesn't have page 10-22. Behind page 10-21 my manual has "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" . L Arghh!! Just asked Van's to send me a new page 10-21 / page 10-22 sheet Back to riveting . Carlos From: Carlos Trigo [mailto:trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt] Sent: domingo, 20 de Janeiro de 2013 00:25 Subject: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting Guys On page 10-21, the manual says "don't install any rivets in the F-1014 Aft Deck in the area of the F-1011 Bulkhead", which means that, at that time, one should not rivet the F-1011B Stop/Doubler and the F-1011D Attachment Bar Support Angle to the F-1014 Aft Deck. Although I don't know why, that's Ok. I suppose that that should be done when attaching the Empennage to the Tail cone, but I don't find anything on Section 11. And the problem is that I can't find anywhere else in the Manual when to rivet this parts, and with which rivets . Can someone please help? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Subject: Re: FW: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Sent you the section 10 plans electronically, to your other email address. On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote : > Ok, boys, with the help of another -10 builder I just discovered that my > manual doesn=92t have page 10-22.**** > > Behind page 10-21 my manual has =93THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK=94 =85 L** > ** > > Arghh!!**** > > ** ** > > Just asked Van=92s to send me a new page 10-21 / page 10-22 sheet**** > > ** ** > > Back to riveting =85**** > > ** ** > > Carlos **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Carlos Trigo [mailto:trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt] > *Sent:* domingo, 20 de Janeiro de 2013 00:25 > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting**** > > ** ** > > Guys**** > > ** ** > > On page 10-21, the manual says =93don=92t install any rivets in the F-101 4 Aft > Deck in the area of the F-1011 Bulkhead=94, which means that, at that tim e, > one should not rivet the F-1011B Stop/Doubler and the F-1011D Attachment > Bar Support Angle to the F-1014 Aft Deck. Although I don=92t know why, th at=92s > Ok.**** > > I suppose that that should be done when attaching the Empennage to the > Tail cone, but I don=92t find anything on Section 11.**** > > And the problem is that I can=92t find anywhere else in the Manual when t o > rivet this parts, and with which rivets =85**** > > ** ** > > Can someone please help?**** > > ** ** > > Carlos **** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Could you send me page 10-22 also as it's missing in my manual also. My e-mail address is ronbelliveau at eastlink dot ca. Thanks Ron Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392762#392762 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Subject: Cabin Top Woes
From: Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com>
I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. [image: Inline image 3][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1] -- Vernon Franklin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>
Just keep sanding, it will eventually fit. I would go from side to side so that each side had about the same amount of materiel left when I was done. The scribe lines are almost meaning less. John On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont > fit into the door area. > > As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work > with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door > channel. > > Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? > > Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at > times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of > that as well. > [image: Inline image 3][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1] > > -- > Vernon Franklin > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: "tsts4" <tsts4(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
What John said. I was real surprised how much past the scribe lines I had to go on both the top and he doors to get everything to fit. It's tedious, but keep at it a little at a time. I got real good at being able to lift the top into place solo in order to do a fit check. -------- Todd Stovall aka Auburntsts on EAA, AOPA, Purple Pilots, VAF, and RVairspace 728TT RV-10 Empacone, Wings, Fuse, Finishing www.mykitlog.com/auburntsts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392769#392769 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
You're right, you might be taking a little of the back of the door frame off. That's normal. Just make it fit. Same is true for the bottom edge. It gets pretty thin. --Dave On Jan 20, 2013, at 14:30, Vernon Franklin wrote: > I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. > > As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. > > Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? > > Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. > > > -- > Vernon Franklin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Sent all of section 10 pdf. On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Ron B. wrote: > > Could you send me page 10-22 also as it's missing in my manual also. My > e-mail address is ronbelliveau at eastlink dot ca. > Thanks Ron > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392762#392762 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
Thanks Kelly We made four copies of the entire manual so each partner would have a copy at home for study and reference. We used the original copy for the build at the hangar. In my copy page 10-22 is missing. I'm going to have to check the hangar copy and see if the item contained on page 10-22 are checked off and the fairing might have to be removed to confirm something wasn't missed. I cannot see four sets of eyes missing holes with no rivets, but this is why I follow these forums. " Did I do That" Thanks again Ron Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392779#392779 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jan 20, 2013
I attached some photos of mine after trimming. -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392780#392780 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1281_193.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1280_156.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1289_114.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1266_602.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Bottom wing skin question
Gordon, did you check with Van's if that still fits the bill of structural integrity? Cheers Werner On 16.01.2013 18:03, Gordon Anderson wrote: > Hi Bill, > > On the bottom side of the wings the skin and rib should be dimpled for > the nutplates. You can confirm by checking the nut plates called out on > page 20-6 (K1100-08). > > I was unclear on this and machine countersunk them at the same time as > the top skins (I was getting everything done real fast that day ;-) ). > The result is so-so - its functionally OK but the hole gets slightly > enlarged since the 2 sheets are not quite thick enough to take the > countersink (unlike the top skins). If you have a pneumatic squeezer, > dimpling two sheets at once should be easy. > > Cheers, > > Gordon Anderson > 41015 Switzerland > > On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Bill and Tami Britton wrote: > >> I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the >> holes that get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) >> need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that >> hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If >> so, I've already riveted on one of the skins. Can it just be machine >> countersunk??? The instructions don't mention dimpling or >> countersinking (atleast up to this point) the screw holes, but as has >> been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more >> vague the instructions get. >> Thanks in advance for any help, >> Bill >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> > > * > > > * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Vernon, I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. Warm regards Patrick On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. > > As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. > > Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? > > Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. > > > -- > Vernon Franklin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Seat Heat Issue
We had a slightly different problem with a draft coming from the rear and cooling my front seat passenger's right side. I have Flightline's panels on the rear baggage covers which has foam and a pretty tight fit. I had asked a back seat passenger to feel around but got no joy. Finally on a cold flight, my SO crawled back and felt around and it seemed to come from the baggage door. I had tried to put some sealing around the door previously but pulled it out. I did some careful sealing there and the problem seems to be resolved. Bill On 1/15/2012 3:30 PM, jchang10 wrote: > > Hmm, a few people mentioned once they added a backing to the baggage cover to seal those gaps, they have not had any complaints about rear seat heat. > > I'll start looking for something to use for backing, and hope it solves my problem too. > > Thanks again! > Jae > > -------- > #40533 RV-10 > First flight 10/19/2011 > Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363882#363882 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
Same here - and I go back to the older green top. It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 It gets better, Bill On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > Vernon, > > I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > >> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >> >> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >> >> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >> >> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >> >> >> -- >> Vernon Franklin > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Free Wing Stand - KDLZ
From: "rleffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2013
I will have a RV-10 wing stand available in a couple weeks. It's free, but you must pick it up a KDLZ (central Ohio). bob -------- Bob Leffler N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage RV-10 #40684 http://mykitlog.com/rleffler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392816#392816 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_108.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Hi For those who can, part of Dave Saylor's composite course is seeing how a canopy is trimmed. Once you see what is involved, it becomes a much less daunting task. It is the not knowing that causes the apprehension when trimming. Dave's guys make it look easy peasy. Cheers Les Sent from my iPhone On 2013-01-21, at 8:21 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Same here - and I go back to the older green top. > > It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. > > I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 > > It gets better, > Bill > > On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: >> >> Vernon, >> >> I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: >> >>> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >>> >>> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >>> >>> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >>> >>> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vernon Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option
I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cabin Top Woes
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 22, 2013
Vernon, I found a pneumatic die grinder with one of the blades supplied in the kit to be the best way to trim the cabin top. Thereafter I used an orbital pneumatic sander (with inbuilt vacuum bag - cost me $39) with 80 grit paper to be the best tool. A pneumatic air file was also used to get into the corners. I hope this helps. Warm regards Patrick On 22/01/2013, at 1:51 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Same here - and I go back to the older green top. > > It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. > > I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 > > It gets better, > Bill > > On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: >> >> Vernon, >> >> I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: >> >>> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >>> >>> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >>> >>> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >>> >>> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vernon Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option
Date: Jan 21, 2013
I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option
From: "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>
Date: Jan 21, 2013
The only thing about flying with the door open is loss of cooling. My original opened twice in flight and it just sat there with no movement. I landed right away. The alum. cover I made now stays put. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392845#392845 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out yourself steps. This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , this post could have saved our lives. On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it turned out so did I. Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight
Date: Jan 21, 2013
On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Here is how we stiffened the oil door. This is our third RV oil door with a hidden hinge and a single Hartwell latch. Works great, no deformation. Robin [cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDF7DE.CB72EF40] [cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDF7DE.CB72EF40] -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron B. Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:55 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca>> The only thing about flying with the door open is loss of cooling. My origi nal opened twice in flight and it just sat there with no movement. I landed right away. The alum. cover I made now stays put. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392845#392845 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
Date: Jan 21, 2013
You're welcome Ron I didn't imagine that my Sunday's cry for help, which turned out to be a manual error, would be so useful for others . Fly safe Carlos -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron B. Sent: segunda-feira, 21 de Janeiro de 2013 21:02 Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca> Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out yourself steps. This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , this post could have saved our lives. On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it turned out so did I. Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. Read this topic online here: <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Being I suffer from the same smoke trails every flight. Did you do the bracket with the bottom cowl off to allow getting in there and positioning the bracket or did you have the bottom on and came up with a good estimate of where to position the firewall facing holes? Thank you! Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Interesting - I had no plans yet to do anything, something like that seems pretty good. I had wondered if a tapered hinge pin could be devised so it would tighten up at the last few inches before the pin was fully in its installed position. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight
Date: Jan 21, 2013
It took a lot of measurements to get this right the first time. I did this after final paint, so I was paranoid about screwing up the paint job. To outline what I did: - The angle material is 3/4" x 3/4", 063" aluminum. - The bracket is a single piece of .063" aluminum. Note the shape - the dip allows for clearance of the pin locking plate. - The angle that mounts to the firewall is on the centerline of the vertical bulkhead flange that is on the other side of the firewall. I wanted this spot as it would reduce flexing of the thin firewall SS. - Bottom cowl was on throughout. - I picked the spot on the top cowl such that it was far enough forward to not interfere with the cowl pin locking plate but not much further, and centered between the two cowl pin locking plate screws. - With the spot marked on a piece of tape on the top cowl and the top cowl on, put a strip of masking tape on the top of the fuselage to do reference marks. I measured to perhaps 10" each side of the center line from the spot on the top cowl, then the "triangle" measurement from these reference marks to the spot on the cowl where the mounting screw will be. The ideas is to be able to find the same spot with the cowl off using these measurements. - With the top cowl on, use a piece of angle that sits on some shims on the fuselage and spinner. You want this angle to be in exactly the same place with the top cowl on as off, but not touching the top cowl - just above it. Measure the distance between the angle and the top cowl where you want to put the screw. - With the top cowl off, and after you add a few layers of glass where the hole will go (but not to interfere with the cowl pin locking plate), measure the thickness of the cowl where you want to put the screw hole. - With the top cowl off and angle in place, you can now find the position where the screw will go into the bracket. The distance below the angle will be the sum of the thickness of the cowl and the distance you measured between the top of the cowl and the angle when the top cowl was on. The spot in the horizontal plane will be on the centerline and per your measurements to your marks on the fuselage. - I clekoed the vertical angle onto the firewall. I used clamps to hold the bracket arm in place as I adjusted the position of the angle that holds the nutplate. - Once you think you have the nutplate angle where you want it, mark the pieces, put a piece of tape on the top of the nutplate angle, put the top cowl on, drill a #40 hole in your spot enough to go through the cowl and just enough to make a mark on the angle tape. - Put your digital camera in the oil door and take a picture of the bracket to verify the nutplate angle is flush against the top cowl. - Take the top cowl off and see if you are happy where the nutplate hole will be. If so, then final drill the bracket to the bulkhead angle and drill the cowl to #30 and the nutplate hole to #30. Cleko the bracket to the bulkhead angle, put the top cowl on, cross your fingers and see if the nutplate hole lines up with the cowl hole. If so, cleko and take another photo to make sure the nutplate angle is still flush to the top of the cowl. - Disassemble, rivet the bracket together, drill the screw holes to #19, countersink the top of the cowl for a SS #19 screw with SS tinnerman, and rivet the nutplate in place. - The nutplate angle is firm against the bracket, but not tight. I uses two #19 nuts to make a locknut so once it would not vibrate loose. Put a dab of grease between the nutplate angle and the bracket to allow it to rotate flush to the top of the cowl when you put in the screw. So, harder to put into words than what it is, but I did scratch my head trying to figure out how to do this. Hopefully this at least give you something to start with. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:13 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Being I suffer from the same smoke trails every flight. Did you do the bracket with the bottom cowl off to allow getting in there and positioning the bracket or did you have the bottom on and came up with a good estimate of where to position the firewall facing holes? Thank you! Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Doesn't do much, I have mine sort of this way, just makes for pulling in and out harder with little benefit. Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:16 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Interesting - I had no plans yet to do anything, something like that seems pretty good. I had wondered if a tapered hinge pin could be devised so it would tighten up at the last few inches before the pin was fully in its installed position. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2013
Subject: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
For those I sent section 10 plans to, they have page 10-22 with revision 1, which matches my copy from Vans. I don't know if there is any newer revision. My build # is 40866. On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Ron B. wrote: > > Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were > completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at > the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out > yourself steps. > This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , > this post could have saved our lives. > On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my > manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out > rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it > turned out so did I. > Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tapered Top Cowl Pins
From: "Greg McFarlane" <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2013
Here is a quick easy way to allow the 120 top pins to be used to retain that nice fit and stop the cowl ballooning. Place a piece of hardwood about 10 inches long in a vice. Using a CUTTING disc on a 4inch grinder make a straight shallow cut the length of the wood then mark a line across the wood 7inches from one end. Cut the pins to length, hold one end in an electric drill and have an assistant operate the drill at about 1000rpm, hold the rotating pin with one hand on the wood groove and with the other hand a 4 inch grinder with a GRINDING disc. GENTLY and EVENLY apply the grinder to the first 6inches of the pin using the mark on the wood as a guide. Check the diameter as you go, when about 100 discard the assistant and using the drill yourself sand the pin smooth. Sand the end of the pin per plans to give a nice lead in.The pin needs only to be tapered for about 6inches and that allows it to enter and go around the curve in the hinge nicely and keeps everything nice and snug. Cheers from Western Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392870#392870 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Tapered Top Cowl Pins
I like it! I'm going to use that on my next cowl, and maybe even replace my pins with ones like that on my -10. Hopefully I can do a good job on that pin though, as I can tell it's going to take a steady hand and some focus. Tim On 1/22/2013 6:21 AM, Greg McFarlane wrote: > > > Here is a quick easy way to allow the 120 top pins to be used to > retain that nice fit and stop the cowl ballooning. Place a piece of > hardwood about 10 inches long in a vice. Using a CUTTING disc on a > 4inch grinder make a straight shallow cut the length of the wood then > mark a line across the wood 7inches from one end. Cut the pins to > length, hold one end in an electric drill and have an assistant > operate the drill at about 1000rpm, hold the rotating pin with one > hand on the wood groove and with the other hand a 4 inch grinder with > a GRINDING disc. GENTLY and EVENLY apply the grinder to the first > 6inches of the pin using the mark on the wood as a guide. Check the > diameter as you go, when about 100 discard the assistant and using > the drill yourself sand the pin smooth. Sand the end of the pin per > plans to give a nice lead in.The pin needs only to be tapered for > about 6inches and that allows it to enter and go around the curve in > the hinge nicely and keeps everything nice and s! nug. Cheers from > Western Australia > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392870#392870 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear Seat Heat Issue
From: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2013
I have everything sealed up pretty good(spars, aileron pushrods, corrugations and doors). At 20*F once we are warmed up(3-5 min after takeoff), we keep the front open 1/4" and the rear open 1/2". The kids keep wool blankets over the heat outlets, so most of the heat comes right up around them. -------- Wayne G. 12/01/2011 TT= 95 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392882#392882 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Tapered Top Cowl Pins
Date: Jan 22, 2013
Just throwing out another option. If you don't want to go the expense of th e quarter turn Cam-Lock style fasteners (understandable) you can do as I ha ve twice and just use $0.05 S/S #8 or #10 screws and washers. They work gr eat, you can carry extras in your tool box or pick some up at the local hom e improvement center if needed. Works great and you are piano hinge free fo rever!. Robin [http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-6a/images/RV-6A%20PICTURES/Exterior/ RV-6A%20(8).JPG] [cid:image002.jpg(at)01CDF887.64A54AC0] -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:36 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tapered Top Cowl Pins 0.com>> I like it! I'm going to use that on my next cowl, and maybe even replace m y pins with ones like that on my -10. Hopefully I can do a good job on that pin though, as I can tell it's going to take a steady hand and some focus. Tim On 1/22/2013 6:21 AM, Greg McFarlane wrote: > > > > Here is a quick easy way to allow the 120 top pins to be used to > retain that nice fit and stop the cowl ballooning. Place a piece of > hardwood about 10 inches long in a vice. Using a CUTTING disc on a > 4inch grinder make a straight shallow cut the length of the wood then > mark a line across the wood 7inches from one end. Cut the pins to > length, hold one end in an electric drill and have an assistant > operate the drill at about 1000rpm, hold the rotating pin with one > hand on the wood groove and with the other hand a 4 inch grinder with > a GRINDING disc. GENTLY and EVENLY apply the grinder to the first > 6inches of the pin using the mark on the wood as a guide. Check the > diameter as you go, when about 100 discard the assistant and using the > drill yourself sand the pin smooth. Sand the end of the pin per plans > to give a nice lead in.The pin needs only to be tapered for about > 6inches and that allows it to enter and go around the curve in the > hinge nicely and keeps everything nice and s! nug. Cheers from Western > Australia > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392870#392870 > > > > > > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2013
From: Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tapered Top Cowl Pins
Great, I just might give that a go. -Chris N919AR ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg McFarlane <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com> Subject: RV10-List: Tapered Top Cowl Pins Here is a quick easy way to allow the 120 top pins to be used to retain that nice fit and stop the cowl ballooning. Place a piece of hardwood about 10 inches long in a vice. Using a CUTTING disc on a 4inch grinder make a straight shallow cut the length of the wood then mark a line across the wood 7inches from one end. Cut the pins to length, hold one end in an electric drill and have an assistant operate the drill at about 1000rpm, hold the rotating pin with one hand on the wood groove and with the other hand a 4 inch grinder with a GRINDING disc. GENTLY and EVENLY apply the grinder to the first 6inches of the pin using the mark on the wood as a guide. Check the diameter as you go, when about 100 discard the assistant and using the drill yourself sand the pin smooth. Sand the end of the pin per plans to give a nice lead in.The pin needs only to be tapered for about 6inches and that allows it to enter and go around the curve in the hinge nicely and keeps everything nice and s! nug. Cheers from Western Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392870#392870 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2013
I noted the presence of a heavy left wing since first flight nearly a month ago. My rudder is a bit off, but even when the ball is centered, there's a roll moment that cannot be ignored. During my build it was pointed out that one flap didn't match the other. That is, there is a twist. Now that the plane is flying I don't recall which is which (figures). I'm thinking this should be addressed first before going down the path of adding trim wedges or adjusting ailerons. Incidentally, I notice any roll when flaps are at 1/2 or full down positions. Hmmmm. Looking at each flap at reflex, I can see that one of the inboard edges is flush with the underside of the fuse while the other is above the underside edge. Can someone who's flying maybe chime in as to what the "normal" position might be? Maybe a photo or two of the inboard edge would help? Other than the roll, I'm finding the -10 is really fun to fly! Thanks, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393092#393092 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2013
Should have said "Incidentally, I DON'T notice any roll when flaps are at 1/2 or full down positions." Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393093#393093 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2013
The bottom skin of the flap should be flush with the bottom skin of the fuse. You could rig the high one down to flush, but you can see the twist easily by following the rivet line of the flap spar with the trailing edge of the wing top skin. They should be the same the whole way down the flap. If they are not, there is a twist in the flap. Unfortunately, if the flap is twisted, then the aileron will be rigged wrong (rigged to the flap), and more importantly, the wingtip will be rigged wrong (rigged to the aileron). You can counter a roll either with trim or with the rigging of the flaps when retracted, although a flap twist will cause a loss in cruise speed. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse(at)itecusa.org www.itecusa.org www.mavericklsa.com C: 352-427-0285 O: 352-465-4545 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone On Jan 26, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "hotwheels" wrote: > > I noted the presence of a heavy left wing since first flight nearly a month ago. My rudder is a bit off, but even when the ball is centered, there's a roll moment that cannot be ignored. > > During my build it was pointed out that one flap didn't match the other. That is, there is a twist. Now that the plane is flying I don't recall which is which (figures). I'm thinking this should be addressed first before going down the path of adding trim wedges or adjusting ailerons. Incidentally, I notice any roll when flaps are at 1/2 or full down positions. Hmmmm. > > Looking at each flap at reflex, I can see that one of the inboard edges is flush with the underside of the fuse while the other is above the underside edge. Can someone who's flying maybe chime in as to what the "normal" position might be? Maybe a photo or two of the inboard edge would help? > > Other than the roll, I'm finding the -10 is really fun to fly! > > Thanks, > Jay > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393092#393092 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Pesky heavy left wing
Date: Jan 26, 2013
Recommend first rigging the flaps to be exactly correct - both flush with the underside of the fuselage. From there start your other rigging checks. Hopefully this will get you on the right path. If you find you do have a twisted flap, then don=92t rig the aileron tailing edge to be in line with the offending flap. Rig the ailerons using a straight edge such that they match. This will mitigate a twisted flap problem. Below are a couple of earlier posts I made on rigging that you may find useful. Carl 60 hours on the RV-10 and one long cross country. Here are some recent tweaks that I=92ve incorporated: - Added a .063=94 shim under the forward HS spar. This moved the elevators to a better trail position in cruise. I had a .040=94 shim in for 10 hours or so. It helped but was not quite enough. Even with this larger shim I have more nose up trim authority than I will ever need. With anything other than forward CG conditions however the elevators are still slightly trailing edge down. This calls for a larger shim but the .063=94 is about all I want to do for now as more may force an empennage fairing adjustment and/or re-hanging the rudder. For those wondering, my W&B is typical of other RV-10s. - Right wing slightly heavy. Not so bad that aileron trim would not fix, but not right. After some careful measurements I found the right aileron inboard hinge placed the aileron slightly high (as compared to the outboard hinge and the left aileron). I lowered the inboard side of the aileron .032=94 or so and this resolved the wing heavy issue. - Ball not centered. I chased my tail on this for some time. With the wheel pants and gear leg fairing off the ball is dead center. Various tweaks on the pants and fairings either had the ball =BD out left or right. After several tries it is now dead center (and just finished final pant and fairing paint today). Some take-aways for those working this issue: o The fairing adjustments are far more critical than the wheel pants at affecting the ball. Set the wheel pants as close as possible, then make all adjustments to the fairings after that. o The Van=92s instructions lead you to think you can mount the wheel pants with the plane on the gear. I don=92t recommend this. o You can never be too accurate setting up to check the fairing rig. A 1/16=94 move of the fairings trailing edge equals =BC ball or so. - Don=92t paint the pants or fairings until after you are flying. - Add the =93reinforcement glass=94 to the nose gear wheel pant (there was a recent thread on this). After mine cracked, I added two layers of carbon fiber to the inside, ground out the crack and filled it in with flox, sanded then two layers of regular glass on the outside over the crack. This was followed by the normal =93micro-balloon and sand until you puke=94 routine. As already mentioned, check the aileron height (compare left/right at inboard and outboard attach points using a straight edge running aft off the wing). A very small difference between aileron heights will make a big difference ' and just how heavy the wing is will be dependent on speed. I found this problem in several heavy wing RVs, including my RV-8A. Moving the offending attachment point completely solve my problem on the 8A. Other things to look at: - Do not assume that if the ailerons (in neutral position) are even with the flaps (in reflex position) that they are rigged correctly as there may be a slight twist in the flap. Put the flaps in the reflex position, clamp one aileron to the flap, then compare using a straight edge running aft off the wing the two ailerons deflection. If there is a difference, adjust the push rods until they are exactly the same. - Do the same straight edge measurement on the flaps to compare. If you do have a slight twist in a flap, I would expect that you can compensate for it if the ailerons are symmetrically rigged as they provide the higher moment arm. - Once you have the ailerons at the same deflection, then look at the wingtips. When building the wingtips you can move the wingtip tailing edge up or down a good quarter of an inch when fitting the aft rib. Of note, the easy tone in Van=92s instructions on rigging the aircraft never seemed right for me. After chasing my tail on a heavy wing I went back to basics as discussed above and found the small difference in aileron mount height. Rigging is a big deal ' and something that few will get right on the first attempt. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 5:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Pesky heavy left wing jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> I noted the presence of a heavy left wing since first flight nearly a month ago. My rudder is a bit off, but even when the ball is centered, there's a roll moment that cannot be ignored. During my build it was pointed out that one flap didn't match the other. That is, there is a twist. Now that the plane is flying I don't recall which is which (figures). I'm thinking this should be addressed first before going down the path of adding trim wedges or adjusting ailerons. Incidentally, I notice any roll when flaps are at 1/2 or full down positions. Hmmmm. Looking at each flap at reflex, I can see that one of the inboard edges is flush with the underside of the fuse while the other is above the underside edge. Can someone who's flying maybe chime in as to what the "normal" position might be? Maybe a photo or two of the inboard edge would help? Other than the roll, I'm finding the -10 is really fun to fly! Thanks, Jay Read this topic online here: <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393092#393092> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393092#393092 List 7-Day http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
Date: Jan 26, 2013
After my first flight....I checked my flaps because I had a heavy left wing. I used an electronic level and compared the flap to the wing and found one flap was 1 degree higher than the other when in reflect. I made them equal....I think it helped. But, I think my bigger problem was fuel imbalance....I was using the right tank and I am not all that skinny....When flying solo I always run the left tank down first... Rene' N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:21 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pesky heavy left wing Should have said "Incidentally, I DON'T notice any roll when flaps are at 1/2 or full down positions." Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393093#393093 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jan 27, 2013
First I would verify that you indeed have twist in the flap. Use a long straight edge. If you do, depending on how bad, you can build a new flap, or live with it and rig the ailerons as pointed out above. As stated above, the flap should be even with the fuse on the retract position. You should not run the flap down to attempt to match the two. The flap actuator mechanism is not designed to carry the lift load at cruise speeds beyond the ~125kt limitation called out in the installation manual. They need to to be nested in cruise. I too had a heavy wing on the left side. Mine was due to the aileron hinge attach bracket. My left leading edge inside bracket was 1/16" to high. I re-drilled the holes in a new bracket and shifted them 1/16", re-installed and my wing heavy is gone. It doesn't take much. This situation can be checked with a straight edge also. I also find that if you have as much as a 5 gallon fuel differential you will notice a wing heavy. -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393127#393127 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2013
Subject: Bonaco hoses
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com>
Hi guys I hate to ask this question but........ About a year ago I purchased a set of 7 SS braided Teflon brake hoses from Bonaco. I can account for the placement of 5, but the two 31.5" ones, I can't figure out where they go. I suspect they're for running down the gear legs. Can anyone who has bought the Bonaco hoses shed some light on my mystery hoses? Thx, Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bonaco hoses
Date: Jan 27, 2013
Your assumption correct. Phil Sent from my iPhone On Jan 27, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Rick Lark wrote: > Hi guys > > I hate to ask this question but........ About a year ago I purchased a se t of 7 SS braided Teflon brake hoses from Bonaco. I can account for the pla cement of 5, but the two 31.5" ones, I can't figure out where they go. I su spect they're for running down the gear legs. Can anyone who has bought the Bonaco hoses shed some light on my mystery hoses? > > Thx, Rick > #40956 > Southampton, Ont > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com>
Just to add further to "checking for flap twist". A really easy and simple way to check is to use "winding sticks". It's an old technique woodworkers used. Search in google for the details. Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:14 AM, bill.peyton wrote: > > First I would verify that you indeed have twist in the flap. Use a long > straight edge. If you do, depending on how bad, you can build a new flap, > or live with it and rig the ailerons as pointed out above. As stated > above, the flap should be even with the fuse on the retract position. You > should not run the flap down to attempt to match the two. The flap > actuator mechanism is not designed to carry the lift load at cruise speeds > beyond the ~125kt limitation called out in the installation manual. They > need to to be nested in cruise. > > I too had a heavy wing on the left side. Mine was due to the aileron > hinge attach bracket. My left leading edge inside bracket was 1/16" to > high. I re-drilled the holes in a new bracket and shifted them 1/16", > re-installed and my wing heavy is gone. It doesn't take much. This > situation can be checked with a straight edge also. > > I also find that if you have as much as a 5 gallon fuel differential you > will notice a wing heavy. > > -------- > Bill > WA0SYV > Aviation Partners, LLC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393127#393127 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
In this case there's no question that it has a twist (I saw it before the wings were mounted). My best guess is that the skins are quite symmetrical and one is flipped. Aside from a twist, the Hines on that flap aren't in perfect alignment. Jay: pull the inner hinge bolts on the flaps. The one that pops out out of alignment is the offending flap. Bob On Sunday, January 27, 2013, Rick Lark wrote: > Just to add further to "checking for flap twist". A really easy and > simple way to check is to use "winding sticks". It's an old technique > woodworkers used. Search in google for the details. > > Rick > #40956 > Southampton, Ont > > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:14 AM, bill.peyton > > wrote: > >> > >> >> First I would verify that you indeed have twist in the flap. Use a long >> straight edge. If you do, depending on how bad, you can build a new flap, >> or live with it and rig the ailerons as pointed out above. As stated >> above, the flap should be even with the fuse on the retract position. You >> should not run the flap down to attempt to match the two. The flap >> actuator mechanism is not designed to carry the lift load at cruise speeds >> beyond the ~125kt limitation called out in the installation manual. They >> need to to be nested in cruise. >> >> I too had a heavy wing on the left side. Mine was due to the aileron >> hinge attach bracket. My left leading edge inside bracket was 1/16" to >> high. I re-drilled the holes in a new bracket and shifted them 1/16", >> re-installed and my wing heavy is gone. It doesn't take much. This >> situation can be checked with a straight edge also. >> >> I also find that if you have as much as a 5 gallon fuel differential you >> will notice a wing heavy. >> >> -------- >> Bill >> WA0SYV >> Aviation Partners, LLC >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393127#393127 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: MAP Gauge Line Failure
From: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
On Saturday our MAP gauge started to read ambient air pressure. After a brief search I discovered that the piece of Tygon hose that connects the port on the firewall to the MAP sending unit mounted to the sub panel had split at the bottom of the service loop. It looks like fuel (I assume) or other contaminants had worked into the hose and settled at the bottom of the service loop. Apparently those contaminants and the Tygon tubing did not chemically agree. We are running a GRT engine monitor, I do not recall if this tubing came from Vans or GRT. Just a heads up - Jason -------- Jason Kreidler 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying - #40617 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393156#393156 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rear seat access
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the painter. Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push anything past the second turn. At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets tonight. The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need to get back into those cavities for any reason? I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment antenna. Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! Bob Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
I put in access panels. Have used one of them already....... Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:49 AM Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the painter. Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push anything past the second turn. At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets tonight. The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need to get back into those cavities for any reason? I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment antenna. Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! Bob Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
I was able to fish the cable out, on my initial install, from the bottom of the plane, but I can understand your situation if the conduit exit isn't real near the hole for the antenna. What I would do is install an access plate. I haven't had need to do that on my plane, but, I did put an access plate on one bay anyway...more as a storage area than anything. I now carry some spare parts for small things that I've accumulated over the years, such as spark plugs, magneto parts, and things like that, in a little container in the seat bays. That way they aren't rattling around in the baggage area, getting crushed, and they are hidden away nicely, but accessible with the removal of a few screws. So, it may be an opportunity for you to do a little mod. To do mine, I had to look at photos to make a narrow slot but leave enough metal on the sides to allow for installation of an access plate doubler. I riveted in the doubler, threw in some nutplates, and then put the strip of metal from the seat back on top. I did it in about a night I think, in the hangar. So all is not lost. I don't think I'd drill out all the rivets. That would be a lot of work for no great reason. Even worst case, you could cut a hole, round or oblong, and then cut an oversized patch that you could rivet on over the hole later. Under a seat cushion nobody would ever know, and then you'd have easy access later. Install nutplates and you could have an access plate that isn't flush, but doesn't need the doubler. Tim On 1/28/2013 8:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two > comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were > removed by the painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a > vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I > can't push anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind > rivets tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall > the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install > nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a > need to get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the > comment antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Bob, I wound up drilling all the rivets for my back seats, to add an antenna on one side, and for similar cable situation on other side. It won't take long to drill them, and you won't be able to get the access you need unless you drill virtually all of them. Fortunately they are easy to drill with a sharp drill bit. I installed access panels to resolve the issue in the future. You may or may not need to get in there again, and access panel with 4 or 6 nutplates is relatively quick and easy to make. If you don't put in access, you will need in there again, if you make the panel, you won't ever have to go there. Just another Murphy's corollary. Kelly On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm > antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the > painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a > vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't > push anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets > tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the > blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need > to get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment > antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Tim, I hadn't thought of that, but I like your suggestion. I think that's what I'll do tonight. Thanks, Bob Sent from my iPhone On Jan 28, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Tim Olson wrote: I was able to fish the cable out, on my initial install, from the bottom of the plane, but I can understand your situation if the conduit exit isn't real near the hole for the antenna. What I would do is install an access plate. I haven't had need to do that on my plane, but, I did put an access plate on one bay anyway...more as a storage area than anything. I now carry some spare parts for small things that I've accumulated over the years, such as spark plugs, magneto parts, and things like that, in a little container in the seat bays. That way they aren't rattling around in the baggage area, getting crushed, and they are hidden away nicely, but accessible with the removal of a few screws. So, it may be an opportunity for you to do a little mod. To do mine, I had to look at photos to make a narrow slot but leave enough metal on the sides to allow for installation of an access plate doubler. I riveted in the doubler, threw in some nutplates, and then put the strip of metal from the seat back on top. I did it in about a night I think, in the hangar. So all is not lost. I don't think I'd drill out all the rivets. That would be a lot of work for no great reason. Even worst case, you could cut a hole, round or oblong, and then cut an oversized patch that you could rivet on over the hole later. Under a seat cushion nobody would ever know, and then you'd have easy access later. Install nutplates and you could have an access plate that isn't flush, but doesn't need the doubler. Tim On 1/28/2013 8:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two > comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were > removed by the painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a > vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I > can't push anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind > rivets tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall > the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install > nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a > need to get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the > comment antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
For those that are using the hidden oil door hinge from non-stop, how did you secure the hinge pin? -Sean #40303 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Have you tried the Vacuum? It does not take too much airflow to pull the sting through.....if you can get to one end, then just get the string close on the other I think you could get it to work. Maybe put the string on the end of a fish tape in order to get it close. Good luck..... Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:49 AM Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the painter. Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push anything past the second turn. At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets tonight. The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need to get back into those cavities for any reason? I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment antenna. Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! Bob Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
I made access panels on each side. I used plastic grommets for the coax to enter from the flap control tubes. As far as snaking through conduit, I bought a snake from Harbor Freight (even though I hate that place). It is red plastic with a round metal end. I could push that through the crazy turns of the conduit. Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:48 AM Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm > antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the > painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a > vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't > push anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets > tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the > blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need > to get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment > antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
You might use a tiny paperball at the end of the line and a good strong vacuum (I had some success with that in the past) Werner On 28.01.2013 16:14, Bob Leffler wrote: > > Tim, > > I hadn't thought of that, but I like your suggestion. I think that's what I'll do tonight. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 28, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > I was able to fish the cable out, on my initial install, from the bottom of the plane, but I can understand your situation if the conduit exit isn't real near the hole for the antenna. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
That's a great idea...even if the string isn't aligned with the hole in the belly skin, it may get sucked in the right direction and come out. Tim On 1/28/2013 9:20 AM, Rene Felker wrote: > > Have you tried the Vacuum? It does not take too much airflow to pull the > sting through.....if you can get to one end, then just get the string close > on the other I think you could get it to work. Maybe put the string on the > end of a fish tape in order to get it close. > > Good luck..... > > Rene' Felker > N423CF > 801-721-6080 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:49 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access > > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm > antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the > painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a vacuum > to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push > anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets > tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the > blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need to > get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment > antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Yep, having done audio and data wiring for over twenty years, I know most of the tricks. There is about a two inch gap between the end of the conduit and the antenna mounting hole. I had hoped the string was just laying on the floor and I could suck if out. But that doesn't appear to be the case. Installing an access plate is a good idea regardless, so I just spend some time installing one now instead of later when I need to make a repair The corrugated conduit, doesn't work well wish any of my fish tapes. Although none of mine are like the on Sean described. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 28, 2013, at 10:20 AM, "Rene Felker" wrote: Have you tried the Vacuum? It does not take too much airflow to pull the sting through.....if you can get to one end, then just get the string close on the other I think you could get it to work. Maybe put the string on the end of a fish tape in order to get it close. Good luck..... Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:49 AM Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the painter. Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a vacuum to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push anything past the second turn. At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets tonight. The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need to get back into those cavities for any reason? I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment antenna. Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! Bob Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Bob, My conduit is corrugated blue stuff. The fish tape I have works well. If you want I can ship to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:58 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear seat access > > Yep, having done audio and data wiring for over twenty years, I know most > of the tricks. > > There is about a two inch gap between the end of the conduit and the > antenna mounting hole. I had hoped the string was just laying on the > floor and I could suck if out. But that doesn't appear to be the case. > > Installing an access plate is a good idea regardless, so I just spend some > time installing one now instead of later when I need to make a repair > > The corrugated conduit, doesn't work well wish any of my fish tapes. > Although none of mine are like the on Sean described. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 28, 2013, at 10:20 AM, "Rene Felker" wrote: > > > Have you tried the Vacuum? It does not take too much airflow to pull the > sting through.....if you can get to one end, then just get the string > close > on the other I think you could get it to work. Maybe put the string on the > end of a fish tape in order to get it close. > > Good luck..... > > Rene' Felker > N423CF > 801-721-6080 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:49 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Rear seat access > > > A long story that I'll make short is that the pull strings for my two comm > antenna, which are located underneath the rear seats, were removed by the > painter. > > Since the conduit doesn't go all the way to the floor, I can't use a > vacuum > to re-run the lines. Also, due to the turns in the conduit I can't push > anything past the second turn. > > At this point it looks like I'll be drilling out all those blind rivets > tonight. > > The debate in having with myself is whether or not to just reinstall the > blind rivets or go through the time and expense to install nutplates. > > For those with comm antenna under your rear seats, have you found a need > to > get back into those cavities for any reason? > > I guess one alternative would be to install access panels over the comment > antenna. > > Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions! > > Bob > > Sent from my iPhone > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MAP Gauge Line Failure
From: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
This is what I used on mine. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002KNVPE -------- Wayne G. SB 12/01/2009-12/01/2011 TT= 97.6 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393176#393176 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: MAP Gauge Line Failure
They make a Tygon that's made for fuel, which is what I used. It's similar to this stuff on Amazon, but of smaller size, and I got it from Aircraft Spruce: http://www.amazon.com/Tygon-F-4040-A-Lubricant-Tubing-Length/dp/B000PHDLBI Just track down Tygon F-4040-A If you're familiar with model airplanes, it feels similar to the fuel hose that is used for fueling those. Tim On 1/28/2013 10:38 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > > This is what I used on mine. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002KNVPE > > -------- > Wayne G. > SB 12/01/2009-12/01/2011 > TT= 97.6 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393176#393176 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
From: "rleffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Strasnuts wrote: > Bob, > > My conduit is corrugated blue stuff. The fish tape I have works well. If > you want I can ship to you. > > > --- If you are talking about this one, I may swing by HF on the way home tonight. It looks like it's less expensive to purchase than ship. My only opportunity is that the conduit comes out of the rib a few inches forward of the hole for the antenna connector. The question will be if I can grab it blindly through the hole? But it may be worth the try. bob -------- Bob Leffler N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage RV-10 #40684 http://mykitlog.com/rleffler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393180#393180 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fishtape_316.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
Shorten the pin about 1/4". Then pinch the hinge pin eyes a little at the tips, or just drill through them an safety wire . David Clifford RV-10 Builder Howell, MI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:19:07 AM Subject: RV10-List: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin For those that are using the hidden oil door hinge from non-stop, how did you secure the hinge pin? -Sean #40303 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
That's the one ----- Original Message ----- From: "rleffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Rear seat access > > > Strasnuts wrote: >> Bob, >> >> My conduit is corrugated blue stuff. The fish tape I have works well. >> If >> you want I can ship to you. >> >> >> --- > > > If you are talking about this one, I may swing by HF on the way home > tonight. It looks like it's less expensive to purchase than ship. > > My only opportunity is that the conduit comes out of the rib a few inches > forward of the hole for the antenna connector. The question will be if I > can grab it blindly through the hole? But it may be worth the try. > > bob > > -------- > Bob Leffler > N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage > RV-10 #40684 > http://mykitlog.com/rleffler > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393180#393180 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/fishtape_316.jpg > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Install a longer pin and bend the ends... -Mike Kraus RV-4 sold :-( RV-10 flying :-) KitFox SS7 Radial building :-) On Jan 28, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > For those that are using the hidden oil door hinge from non-stop, how did you secure the hinge pin? > > -Sean #40303 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
I didn't want to bend both ends in case I wanted to remove the door at some point. I was thinking of bending just one end and safety wiring the bent end to something? Maybe a hole drilled in the eyelet as David mentioned. On 1/28/13 11:56 AM, Michael Kraus wrote: > > Install a longer pin and bend the ends... > > -Mike Kraus > RV-4 sold :-( > RV-10 flying :-) > KitFox SS7 Radial building :-) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
From: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Another idea... If are able to get the fish tape into the subject area try placing something magnetic on the end of the tape then use a magnet to steer the tape to the hole. Or if there are no other wires you might be able to blow a string through with a screw on the end and then use the magnet. I REALLY like Tim's idea of an access panel leading to a small storage space. I saw this done on wingtips before. Great idea Tim! - Jason -------- Jason Kreidler 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying - #40617 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393185#393185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
I bent 1 end at 90 degrees and the other at ~10 degrees. It's been removed 4-5 times for various reasons including paint.... No issues... Just bend it back straight and pull it out! -Mike Kraus RV-4 sold :-( RV-10 flying :-) KitFox SS7 Radial building :-) On Jan 28, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > mentioned. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Thanks to all that replied to my question. I closely examined both flaps in the reflex position over the weekend. The left flap inside edge is perfectly aligned to the bottom of the fuse skin. The right flap is about 1/2" lower than the fuse skin. I believe that explains the tendency towards rolling to the left. The weird thing is that I built both flaps side by side at the same time and didn't notice anything usual at the time. Both were primed, so if something got flipped it had to happen early on in the process. I'll report back once I get the offender replaced. Hopefully, it will just be a pain in the wallet... Cheers, Jay N433RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393195#393195 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: Securing Oil Door Hidden Hinge Pin
Sounds good. Thanks Mike... On 1/28/13 1:55 PM, Michael Kraus wrote: > > I bent 1 end at 90 degrees and the other at ~10 degrees. It's been removed 4-5 times for various reasons including paint.... No issues... Just bend it back straight and pull it out! > > -Mike Kraus > RV-4 sold :-( > RV-10 flying :-) > KitFox SS7 Radial building :-) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
While rare, it's possible that one of the skins has the holes incorrectly punched. As I recall, if you retract the flaps to reflex and look at how the wing trailing edge meets the flap you will also notice that it isn't parallel like the other side. Bob On Monday, January 28, 2013, hotwheels wrote: > > > > Thanks to all that replied to my question. > > I closely examined both flaps in the reflex position over the weekend. The > left flap inside edge is perfectly aligned to the bottom of the fuse skin. > The right flap is about 1/2" lower than the fuse skin. I believe that > explains the tendency towards rolling to the left. The weird thing is that > I built both flaps side by side at the same time and didn't notice anything > usual at the time. Both were primed, so if something got flipped it had to > happen early on in the process. > > I'll report back once I get the offender replaced. Hopefully, it will just > be a pain in the wallet... > > Cheers, > Jay > N433RV > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393195#393195 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Does your right flap contact the frame? If so, it could be affecting the rigging.....ask me how I know........mine was not that far down, I don't think, but after clearing the contact area I was able to get both flaps the same. When I was doing the final fit of the flaps after the wing was on the airframe, I trimmed the flap without it being connected to the flap motor and linkage. I think it cleared the frame then (close fit), but when I connected up the linkage, after paint, it was contacting and holding the flap down about 1 degree. Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 2:53 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pesky heavy left wing Thanks to all that replied to my question. I closely examined both flaps in the reflex position over the weekend. The left flap inside edge is perfectly aligned to the bottom of the fuse skin. The right flap is about 1/2" lower than the fuse skin. I believe that explains the tendency towards rolling to the left. The weird thing is that I built both flaps side by side at the same time and didn't notice anything usual at the time. Both were primed, so if something got flipped it had to happen early on in the process. I'll report back once I get the offender replaced. Hopefully, it will just be a pain in the wallet... Cheers, Jay N433RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393195#393195 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
Date: Jan 28, 2013
I'm just curios... Does anyone know the cost of replacing a flap? I've got a slight twist in one of mine but I'll certainly wait till (if ever) I fly to determine wing heaviness. Ben Westfall -----Original Message----- Does your right flap contact the frame? If so, it could be affecting the rigging.....ask me how I know........mine was not that far down, I don't think, but after clearing the contact area I was able to get both flaps the same. When I was doing the final fit of the flaps after the wing was on the airframe, I trimmed the flap without it being connected to the flap motor and linkage. I think it cleared the frame then (close fit), but when I connected up the linkage, after paint, it was contacting and holding the flap down about 1 degree. Rene' Felker N423CF -----Original Message----- Thanks to all that replied to my question. I closely examined both flaps in the reflex position over the weekend. The left flap inside edge is perfectly aligned to the bottom of the fuse skin. The right flap is about 1/2" lower than the fuse skin. I believe that explains the tendency towards rolling to the left. The weird thing is that I built both flaps side by side at the same time and didn't notice anything usual at the time. Both were primed, so if something got flipped it had to happen early on in the process. I'll report back once I get the offender replaced. Hopefully, it will just be a pain in the wallet... Cheers, Jay N433RV ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Frame? Do you mean does the flap contact the rear wing spar in the full up reflex position? Yes. There's ~1/8" gap between inboard edge of the flap and the fuse. The offending flap is about 1/2 lower than the fuse at the inboard edge. Nothing to do with the flap motor here. For the record, I knew something was amiss even with the flaps in the wing cradle. Called Vans and they said something like "fly it first and is and see if it's a problem". Ordering parts for a single flap looks like ~$500 including shipping. :-( Jay rene(at)felker.com wrote: > Does your right flap contact the frame? If so, it could be affecting the > rigging.....ask me how I know........mine was not that far down, I don't > think, but after clearing the contact area I was able to get both flaps the > same. When I was doing the final fit of the flaps after the wing was on the > airframe, I trimmed the flap without it being connected to the flap motor > and linkage. I think it cleared the frame then (close fit), but when I > connected up the linkage, after paint, it was contacting and holding the > flap down about 1 degree. > > Rene' Felker > N423CF > 801-721-6080 > > -- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393201#393201 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
Date: Jan 28, 2013
I meant the inside edge and fuselage. Well, it was an idea. Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:04 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pesky heavy left wing Frame? Do you mean does the flap contact the rear wing spar in the full up reflex position? Yes. There's ~1/8" gap between inboard edge of the flap and the fuse. The offending flap is about 1/2 lower than the fuse at the inboard edge. Nothing to do with the flap motor here. For the record, I knew something was amiss even with the flaps in the wing cradle. Called Vans and they said something like "fly it first and is and see if it's a problem". Ordering parts for a single flap looks like ~$500 including shipping. :-( Jay rene(at)felker.com wrote: > Does your right flap contact the frame? If so, it could be affecting > the rigging.....ask me how I know........mine was not that far down, I > don't think, but after clearing the contact area I was able to get > both flaps the same. When I was doing the final fit of the flaps > after the wing was on the airframe, I trimmed the flap without it > being connected to the flap motor and linkage. I think it cleared the > frame then (close fit), but when I connected up the linkage, after > paint, it was contacting and holding the flap down about 1 degree. > > Rene' Felker > N423CF > 801-721-6080 > > -- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393201#393201 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Vans Tech Support suggested the following order to trim out heavy wing: 1. Verify current aileron rigging. 2. Add balsa wood trim tabs under right aileron and rudder. Attach with duct tape... 2. Attach gear fairings and wheel pants (rinse and repeat step 2) 3. If still no joy then consider replacing flap Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393204#393204 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 28, 2013
Update: I picked up the fish tape that Sean recommended. The head was indeed large enough to get through the two 90 degree bends in the corrugated conduit. I still couldn't get the end through the 1/2" opening for the antenna on the bottom of the fuselage. I ended up making a small access door, which probably should be there anyways to make troubleshooting antenna issues easier down the road. Thanks for everyone's opinions! Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rleffler Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 12:24 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Rear seat access rv(at)thelefflers.com> Strasnuts wrote: > Bob, > > My conduit is corrugated blue stuff. The fish tape I have works well. > If you want I can ship to you. > > > --- If you are talking about this one, I may swing by HF on the way home tonight. It looks like it's less expensive to purchase than ship. My only opportunity is that the conduit comes out of the rib a few inches forward of the hole for the antenna connector. The question will be if I can grab it blindly through the hole? But it may be worth the try. bob -------- Bob Leffler N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage RV-10 #40684 <http://mykitlog.com/rleffler> http://mykitlog.com/rleffler Read this topic online here: <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393180#393180> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393180#393180 Attachments: <http://forums.matronics.com/files/fishtape_316.jpg> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fishtape_316.jpg http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (in the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but the other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... but now I'm wondering if something might be off. On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:03 PM, hotwheels wrote: > > For the record, I knew something was amiss even with the flaps in the wing > cradle. Called Vans and they said something like "fly it first and is and > see if it's a problem". ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off from the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that may not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better way to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one seemed surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. Jay [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (in the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but the other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... but now I'm wondering if something might be off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
At least Vans didn't say 'We've never heard of that before.' ;-) Checking for twist is easy. Tape a yardstick to the top of the flap at the fuselage end and another at the outer end and sight across the yardsticks. Twist will show up significantly. The trailing edge can be perfectly straight while there's twist in the flap or aileron. I think the twist is the result of creep during the riveting process, but I'm no expert!!! Linn On 1/29/2013 10:58 AM, hotwheels wrote: > > Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off from the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that may not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better way to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. > > I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one seemed surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. > > Jay > > > [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (in the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but the other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... but now I'm wondering if something might be off. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
Ed, While it's a twist, calling it that causes people to assume that it's just a trailing edge issue. In this case the hinge holes are actually misaligned and at least while the wings were in the cradles, you could look down the wing skin trailing edge and compare to the flap leading edge rivet line and see that there was an issue also. To get the hinges to all align (while the wing was in the cradle), pressure had to be applied to the last hinge (my recollection is that it was about 3/8"=1/2" off. That all implies that the flap spar itself has some twist to it but you'd expect that the leading edges and/or skins would have forced it out. Best guess is that there's something amiss with a skin causing the twist but that's just speculation and without drilling the skins off, who knows. Needless to say, the trailing edge also exhibits a twist. His other flap is perfectly straight, so it's not like the L&R skins swapped and caused an issue. Bob On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:58 AM, hotwheels wrote: > > Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The > other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off fr om > the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that m ay > not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better way > to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. > > I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one seeme d > surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. > > Jay > > > [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when the > wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (in the > cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but the oth er > had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the flap > allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... =EF =BDbut now > I'm wondering if something might be off.=EF=BD > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
Linn and Bob, Thanks for the input. I did check for twist by taping a few levels to the flap bottom and using them as winding sticks. As far as I can tell, I don't have any "Twist". I can also sight down the aileron and flap trailing edge and it's straight and they are even with each other. I may just have a very slight bow at the spar of the flap or possibly even the rear spar of the wing. I'll look at it closer by seeing how far off the hinge point is and seeing how the flap is sitting against the top skin. It's a bit awkward with the wings sitting vertically in the cradles. Most likely, this is just my OCD flaring up! And there is most likely nothing I can or should do until I can see how the flaps sit against the fuse bottom... which is in a crate on a truck somewhere. On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bob Condrey wrote: > Ed, > > While it's a twist, calling it that causes people to assume that it's just > a trailing edge issue. In this case the hinge holes are actually > misaligned and at least while the wings were in the cradles, you could look > down the wing skin trailing edge and compare to the flap leading edge rivet > line and see that there was an issue also. To get the hinges to all align > (while the wing was in the cradle), pressure had to be applied to the last > hinge (my recollection is that it was about 3/8"=1/2" off. That all > implies that the flap spar itself has some twist to it but you'd expect > that the leading edges and/or skins would have forced it out. Best guess > is that there's something amiss with a skin causing the twist but that's > just speculation and without drilling the skins off, who knows. Needless > to say, the trailing edge also exhibits a twist. His other flap is > perfectly straight, so it's not like the L&R skins swapped and caused an > issue. > > Bob > At least Vans didn't say 'We've never heard of that before.' ;-) Checking for twist is easy. Tape a yardstick to the top of the flap at the fuselage end and another at the outer end and sight across the yardsticks. Twist will show up significantly. The trailing edge can be perfectly straight while there's twist in the flap or aileron. I think the twist is the result of creep during the riveting process, but I'm no expert!!! Linn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Rear seat access
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Hi A trick I used was to tie a small square of cloth to light nylon string then blow it through using my air hose. Worked like a charm even with tight turns. Cheers Les Sent from my iPhone On 2013-01-28, at 12:49 PM, "jkreidler" wrote: > > Another idea... If are able to get the fish tape into the subject area try placing something magnetic on the end of the tape then use a magnet to steer the tape to the hole. Or if there are no other wires you might be able to blow a string through with a screw on the end and then use the magnet. > > I REALLY like Tim's idea of an access panel leading to a small storage space. I saw this done on wingtips before. Great idea Tim! - Jason > > -------- > Jason Kreidler > 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI > Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler > N44YH - Flying - #40617 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393185#393185 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: torque value of fuel servo/engine studs
From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net>
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Hello, can someone please tell me what the torque value of fuel servo/engine studs are. Or where I can find this. Thanks Michael -------- RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393243#393243 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: torque value of fuel servo/engine studs
AC 43-13 is the 'bible' for aviation and everybody should have a copy. You'll have far more knowledge at your fingertips ...... or mouse ..... than you'll possibly have questions for!!! You can find it here: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861 or *http://tinyurl.com/3hr4js4.* To answer your question .... at least generally, look at table 7-1 0n page 7-9 of AC43-13 for torque values for various size bolts. Linn On 1/29/2013 4:40 PM, Mike Whisky wrote: > > Hello, > > can someone please tell me what the torque value of fuel servo/engine studs are. Or where I can find this. > Thanks > Michael > > -------- > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393243#393243 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: torque value of fuel servo/engine studs
From: "charliewaffles" <mcooper(at)live.com>
Date: Jan 29, 2013
Actually, when it comes to the engine side of things, Lycoming specifies the torque for everything on the engine. You should refer to Service Table of Limits - SSP_1776 for anything relating to the Lycoming studs, bolts, nuts, etc... If its not called out for specifically, they have a default torque section at the end of the document. These are typically HIGHER than anything in AC43.13 or other sources as most threads are coarse threads. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393246#393246 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 2013
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: torque value of fuel servo/engine studs
True, but with the servo, higher torque values are not better. You only need enough to secure it and the gasket from air leaks. Very different than holding case parting line together, for example. Also, you will be using a lock tab, so they are not going to loosen. I'd recommend sticking with the AC43-13-1B values for this application. Just as Lycoming's spark plug torque value is 10 ft lbs higher than Continental's, for the very same threads in the same helicoil and same aluminum alloy. The Lyc representatives I've talked to could never give a reason for the high torque value for spark plugs, that just about requires a breaker bar to remove them. I've been using 25 ft lbs on my certified Lycoming for over 10 yrs and 700 hours with no issues. Kelly A&P/IA On 1/29/2013 3:36 PM, charliewaffles wrote: > > Actually, when it comes to the engine side of things, Lycoming specifies the torque for everything on the engine. You should refer to Service Table of Limits - SSP_1776 for anything relating to the Lycoming studs, bolts, nuts, etc... If its not called out for specifically, they have a default torque section at the end of the document. These are typically HIGHER than anything in AC43.13 or other sources as most threads are coarse threads. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393246#393246 > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!
From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net>
Date: Jan 30, 2013
Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess thats not it was designed for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U -------- RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!
Date: Jan 30, 2013
He's not the first and likely won't be the last! :) Not that I'd recommend it at all, but as good ole' Bob Hoover has shown, a nicely executed roll is just about exactly 1G through the entire thing...even if you are pouring a cup of tea whilst doing it in an airplane not designed for it. I believe Tex Johnson also caught a bit of flak for doing the same thing in a 707! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Whisky Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess thats not it was designed for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U -------- RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 2013
Subject: Re: Pesky heavy left wing
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com>
Hey Linn, that's the "winding stick " technique I previously mentioned. I assume you use the yard stick on edge. ;-) Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Linn wrote: > > At least Vans didn't say 'We've never heard of that before.' ;-) > Checking for twist is easy. Tape a yardstick to the top of the flap at > the fuselage end and another at the outer end and sight across the > yardsticks. Twist will show up significantly. The trailing edge can be > perfectly straight while there's twist in the flap or aileron. I think t he > twist is the result of creep during the riveting process, but I'm no > expert!!! > Linn > > On 1/29/2013 10:58 AM, hotwheels wrote: > >> >> Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The >> other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off f rom >> the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that may >> not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better wa y >> to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. >> >> I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one >> seemed surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when >> the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (i n >> the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but th e >> other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the >> flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... >> =EF=BDbut now I'm wondering if something might be off.=EF=BD >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 ums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> >> > > =====**=================== ===========**= ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2013
Subject: Re: RV10-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/30/13
From: Frank Davis <fdavis101454(at)gmail.com>
What Bob Hoover and Tex Johnson did were barrel rolls, not aileron rolls. Big difference. On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:01 AM, RV10-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete RV10-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the RV10-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-01-30&Archive=RV10 > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-01-30&Archive=RV10 > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > RV10-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 01/30/13: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 03:53 PM - Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! (Mike Whisky) > 2. 04:23 PM - Re: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! (Stein Bruch) > 3. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Pesky heavy left wing (Rick Lark) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> > > > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess > thats not it was designed for. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U > > -------- > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > > > He's not the first and likely won't be the last! :) > > Not that I'd recommend it at all, but as good ole' Bob Hoover has shown, a > nicely executed roll is just about exactly 1G through the entire > thing...even if you are pouring a cup of tea whilst doing it in an airplane > not designed for it. I believe Tex Johnson also caught a bit of flak for > doing the same thing in a 707! > > Cheers, > Stein > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Whisky > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:52 PM > Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > > > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I > guess thats not it was designed for. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U > > -------- > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Pesky heavy left wing > From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> > > Hey Linn, that's the "winding stick " technique I previously mentioned. I > assume you use the yard stick on edge. ;-) > > Rick > #40956 > Southampton, Ont > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Linn wrote: > >> >> At least Vans didn't say 'We've never heard of that before.' ;-) >> Checking for twist is easy. Tape a yardstick to the top of the flap at >> the fuselage end and another at the outer end and sight across the >> yardsticks. Twist will show up significantly. The trailing edge can be >> perfectly straight while there's twist in the flap or aileron. I think t > he >> twist is the result of creep during the riveting process, but I'm no >> expert!!! >> Linn >> >> On 1/29/2013 10:58 AM, hotwheels wrote: >> >>> >>> Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The >>> other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off f > rom >>> the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that > may >>> not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better wa > y >>> to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. >>> >>> I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one >>> seemed surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when >>> the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (i > n >>> the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but th > e >>> other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the >>> flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... >>> =EF=BDbut now I'm wondering if something might be off.=EF=BD >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 > ums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> > =====**================== > ===========** > ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> > =====**================== > ===========** > =====**================== > ===========** > com/contribution> > =====**================== > ===========** >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2013
Subject: Re: RV10-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/30/13
From: Frank Davis <fdavis101454(at)gmail.com>
What Bob Hoover and Tex Johnson did were barrel rolls, not aileron rolls. Big difference. On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:01 AM, RV10-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete RV10-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the RV10-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-01-30&Archive=RV10 > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-01-30&Archive=RV10 > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > RV10-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 01/30/13: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 03:53 PM - Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! (Mike Whisky) > 2. 04:23 PM - Re: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! (Stein Bruch) > 3. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Pesky heavy left wing (Rick Lark) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> > > > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess > thats not it was designed for. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U > > -------- > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > > > He's not the first and likely won't be the last! :) > > Not that I'd recommend it at all, but as good ole' Bob Hoover has shown, a > nicely executed roll is just about exactly 1G through the entire > thing...even if you are pouring a cup of tea whilst doing it in an airplane > not designed for it. I believe Tex Johnson also caught a bit of flak for > doing the same thing in a 707! > > Cheers, > Stein > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Whisky > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:52 PM > Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > > > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I > guess thats not it was designed for. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U > > -------- > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Pesky heavy left wing > From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> > > Hey Linn, that's the "winding stick " technique I previously mentioned. I > assume you use the yard stick on edge. ;-) > > Rick > #40956 > Southampton, Ont > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Linn wrote: > >> >> At least Vans didn't say 'We've never heard of that before.' ;-) >> Checking for twist is easy. Tape a yardstick to the top of the flap at >> the fuselage end and another at the outer end and sight across the >> yardsticks. Twist will show up significantly. The trailing edge can be >> perfectly straight while there's twist in the flap or aileron. I think t > he >> twist is the result of creep during the riveting process, but I'm no >> expert!!! >> Linn >> >> On 1/29/2013 10:58 AM, hotwheels wrote: >> >>> >>> Sorry to say, that was one symptom. One hole didn't quite line up. The >>> other thing of note was that the aft edge of the flap was slightly off f > rom >>> the aileron... The flap trailing edge appeared to be straight, but that > may >>> not have been the root cause. I don't think there's really any better wa > y >>> to tell if something is off until you get the wings on and rigging done. >>> >>> I've spoken to a couple people at Van's about this issue and no one >>> seemed surprised by having a flap twist. Apparently, it's common. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [quote="EdKranz"]Can you elaborate on what you saw that was amiss when >>> the wings were in the cradles? I just bolted the flaps on to my wings (i > n >>> the cradles). One flap had all three hinge holes align PERFECTLY, but th > e >>> other had the center hole very slightly off. Very light pressure on the >>> flap allowed the bolt to slide in, and I didn't think anything of it... >>> =EF=BDbut now I'm wondering if something might be off.=EF=BD >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226 > ums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393226#393226> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> > =====**================== > ===========** > ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> > =====**================== > ===========** > =====**================== > ===========** > com/contribution> > =====**================== > ===========** >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Removing the baggage door cut-away portion of the fuselage
skin
Date: Jan 31, 2013
Guys Question for those who used a QB fuselage: Did you remove the baggage door cut-away portion of the fuselage skin BEFORE or AFTER attaching the tail cone to the Fwd section of the fuselage? Regards Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Removing the baggage door cut-away portion of the fuselage
skin
Date: Jan 31, 2013
The directions have you do it on page 29-15, several chapters before attaching the tailcone, which is what I did. Bill Greenley From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:44 AM Subject: RV10-List: Removing the baggage door cut-away portion of the fuselage skin Guys Question for those who used a QB fuselage: Did you remove the baggage door cut-away portion of the fuselage skin BEFORE or AFTER attaching the tail cone to the Fwd section of the fuselage? Regards Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2013
Subject: Re: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
This article explains the different types of rolls: http://www.iacusn.org/schools/reprints/08aug_rollisa.pdf As this article states, what Bob Hoover did in the Shrike Commander was an aileron roll, and he was able to do it at a constant 1G. You've probably seen the video of him pouring tea during the roll. The article also explains that this maneuver begins with a ~20 degree nose up, then roll, which is what the youtube video shows. If he did the manuver correctly he should have been at 1G or less the entire time. A barrel role is a combination of a loop and a roll, and at the bottom of the loop portion, you will be over 1G. On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Frank Davis wrote: > > What Bob Hoover and Tex Johnson did were barrel rolls, not aileron > rolls. Big difference. > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:01 AM, RV10-List Digest Server > wrote: > > * > > > > > Subject: RV10-List: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?! > > From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> > > > > > > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the > RV-10, I guess > > thats not it was designed for. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U > > > > -------- > > RV-10 builder (interior & finishing) > > #511 > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > >

January 11, 2013 - January 31, 2013

RV10-Archive.digest.vol-je