RV10-Archive.digest.vol-jh
March 18, 2013 - April 05, 2013
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing
> kit and FWF kit in progress.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396489#396489
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
| From: | Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net> |
The paint adherence is only as good as the surface preparation. The hardest
part of painting is the surface preparation. Once that is done, painting i
s fairly quick.
I painted my RV-4 and was very happy with it. Apparently Van's is too, beca
use here it is!
http://vansaircraft.com/public/rv4.htm
But for my RV-10, I wasn't going to touch it..... especially after all that f
iberglass work.... I knew how big of a job the -4 was and the -10 is even b
igger....
But, if painting your own plane is on your bucket list, this might be your o
nly opportunity!! :-)
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:01 PM, "Pascal" wrote:
>
> Granted I'm no pro, but if someone is on a budget, I painted my whole plan
e for under $1.5K, that included my paint gun and materials (sand paper). I d
o not have a professional looking plane by ANY means, but it does the job of
protecting it. Because I painted in my garage, in California I was limited t
o only a waterbased paint. I used Stewarts system with good enough success- h
ttp://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx. A good painter, like Don McDonal
d made my recoated wing looks very nice, so a good painter can get a nice jo
b done with this paint. Spray painting is actually a lot of fun!
> I did it myself and would do it again. Worse case, a professional will tak
e your job and repaint with less paint and make it look really good. An exam
ple, a local plane had a terrible paint job and after 1 week at a good shop i
t came back looking great, cost $4000K since all the prep involved was sandi
ng for 2 coats of paint.
> If I can paint the plane in a garage , with no prior experience in spray p
ainting, anyone can do it.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Carl Froehlich
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 2:31 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Square footage for painting
>
t>
>
> For high end products (PPG multicolor base/clear coat), $4000 in material i
s a good guess - a little less if you know what you are doing. The hangar p
aint booth was 12'X26'x8' tall, 2x4 frame with plastic covering (wings and t
ail not on the plane for paint).
>
> I live near a PPG store so I bought paint as needed, but always made sure I
had enough for whatever section I was doing.
>
> Bottom line - if you can find someone to paint your plane for under $12K, j
ump at it. The RV-10 is a bear to paint. I did the RV-8A with the same bas
e/clear coat products but the shear size of the RV-10 made for many hours of
sanding and rework for me - a typical amateur painter.
>
> Carl
>
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 12:53 PM, "woxofswa" wrote:
>
>>
>> Anybody calc out a square footage or similar area dimension for painting m
aterials/cost purposes?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing k
it and FWF kit in progress.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396489#396489
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
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==========================
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==========================
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>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
I'll add to my previous email......
I spent about $3,700 on paint from a Sherwin Williams distributor.
$300 on materials like tape, paper, mek, plastic, etc.
The painter spent 99 hours and my wife and I probably put in another 30 hours or
so each assisting with the masking and tape. Most the time was consumed by
masking for the four colors
And the compound curves of the trim lines.
Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 18, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote:
>
> For high end products (PPG multicolor base/clear coat), $4000 in material is
a good guess - a little less if you know what you are doing. The hangar paint
booth was 12'X26'x8' tall, 2x4 frame with plastic covering (wings and tail not
on the plane for paint).
>
> I live near a PPG store so I bought paint as needed, but always made sure I had
enough for whatever section I was doing.
>
> Bottom line - if you can find someone to paint your plane for under $12K, jump
at it. The RV-10 is a bear to paint. I did the RV-8A with the same base/clear
coat products but the shear size of the RV-10 made for many hours of sanding
and rework for me - a typical amateur painter.
>
> Carl
>
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 12:53 PM, "woxofswa" wrote:
>
>>
>> Anybody calc out a square footage or similar area dimension for painting materials/cost
purposes?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit
and FWF kit in progress.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396489#396489
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Thanks for the input. What I was actually doing was querying a couple of auto
shops near the airport to paint the pieces for me to final assemble. They were
asking for approximate square footage since RV10 meant nothing to them, but
a couple of them have done aircraft projects before.
In the end, I decided against the auto shop idea. I still might self paint for
the challenge, but for the time it would take me I can easily pick up extra trips
at work and be money and time ahead.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and
FWF kit in progress.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396555#396555
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DLM" <dlm34077(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | aircraft painting |
Just a data point. My aircraft was the first painted by Crider in Mena; cost
including ferry the aircraft in and Mena pickup, took 10 days and about
$6000; that was $4500 for painting and $1500 for my expenses; Paint (Azko
Nobel) was a base Jetglo Matterhorn white and trim in Cranberry craze
Acryglo. That was July 2008; just received another quart of white and
hardener at no charge to repaint leg fairings and wheel pants while
installing new mains from Matco.
N46007 670TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: aircraft painting |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
That was a good deal! Looks like paint went up these past five years.
Specific costs from my paint job
JetGlo Matterhorn White was $145/gal and the hardener was $163/gal.
I use the following ArcyGlo colors
Phantom Gray metallic was$145/gal
Seminole Red Metallic was$126/qt
Silver Metallic was $126/qt
Hardener was$54/qt
Stabilizer was $37/pint
Clear coat was$103/gal
Primer was $157/gal
PrimerAdduct was $96/gal
I priced several PPG products which cost about the same locally.
Like I mentioned previously, I spent about $3,700 just for the paint. It wa
s clearly sticker shock to me. I hadn't realized that paint was so expensiv
e until I started getting quotes.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 19, 2013, at 8:31 AM, "DLM" wrote:
Just a data point. My aircraft was the first painted by Crider in Mena; cost
including ferry the aircraft in and Mena pickup, took 10 days and about $60
00; that was $4500 for painting and $1500 for my expenses; Paint (Azko Nobel
) was a base Jetglo Matterhorn white and trim in Cranberry craze Acryglo. Th
at was July 2008; just received another quart of white and hardener at no ch
arge to repaint leg fairings and wheel pants while installing new mains from
Matco.
N46007 670TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
I used a high end auto shop to do the painting on my RV-12, which is much
more amenable to auto shop work with its removable wings, and all of the
components will fit in a car-sized paint booth. The shop owner was a Rans
builder and he had his employees do his airplane first. The result on my
-12 looked great at first but I discovered later they did not alodine
aluminum as agreed upon since they weren't familiar with alodine and didn't
think it necessary, some alclad areas were not sufficiently scuffed to get
good adhesion and the paint started lifting off some components like the
canopy skirts after about a year (again because they weren't accustomed to
vehicles built with metals having a coat of pure aluminum). And in trying
to make a thick automotive wet look on all those pop rivets they generally
put too much paint on the plane, and had rivet-associated runs. The cost
was over $10K. But it was very cool to be able to send the wings over
locally to get painted while I was still working on the fuselage, etc.
If I had it to do again I would use the same pro aircraft shop that painted
my RV-10, which was AOG painting in Mena, Arkansas (http://www.aogpaint.com/
). They did a great job with JetGlo on a complex curvy RV-10 design (see
http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/N104LDinflight.jpg ) at an amazingly
low price.
So I learned there are some 'cultural' issues when having auto paint shops
work on airplanes, even very good shops such as this one was/is. Caveat
emptor...
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD
RV-12 N122LD
>Subject: RV10-List: Re: Square footage for painting
>From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
>Thanks for the input. What I was actually doing was querying a couple of
auto
>shops near the airport to paint the pieces for me to final assemble. They
were
>asking for approximate square footage since RV10 meant nothing to them, but
>a couple of them have done aircraft projects before.
>In the end, I decided against the auto shop idea. I still might self paint
for
>the challenge, but for the time it would take me I can easily pick up extra
trips
>at work and be money and time ahead.
>--------
>Myron Nelson
>Mesa, AZ
>Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing
kit and
>FWF kit in progress.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
Just looking into this also as I'm 90% done and 90% to go. :)
One thing I was curious about is does the builder normally do the
control surface removal and re-assembly at the paint shop? I think I
would want to just to have piece of mind that it was put back together
per plans.
-Sean #40303 (fwf)
On 3/19/13 9:42 AM, Dan Masys wrote:
>
> I used a high end auto shop to do the painting on my RV-12, which is much
> more amenable to auto shop work with its removable wings, and all of the
> components will fit in a car-sized paint booth. The shop owner was a Rans
> builder and he had his employees do his airplane first. The result on my
> -12 looked great at first but I discovered later they did not alodine
> aluminum as agreed upon since they weren't familiar with alodine and didn't
> think it necessary, some alclad areas were not sufficiently scuffed to get
> good adhesion and the paint started lifting off some components like the
> canopy skirts after about a year (again because they weren't accustomed to
> vehicles built with metals having a coat of pure aluminum). And in trying
> to make a thick automotive wet look on all those pop rivets they generally
> put too much paint on the plane, and had rivet-associated runs. The cost
> was over $10K. But it was very cool to be able to send the wings over
> locally to get painted while I was still working on the fuselage, etc.
>
> If I had it to do again I would use the same pro aircraft shop that painted
> my RV-10, which was AOG painting in Mena, Arkansas (http://www.aogpaint.com/
> ). They did a great job with JetGlo on a complex curvy RV-10 design (see
> http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/N104LDinflight.jpg ) at an amazingly
> low price.
>
> So I learned there are some 'cultural' issues when having auto paint shops
> work on airplanes, even very good shops such as this one was/is. Caveat
> emptor...
>
> -Dan Masys
> RV-10 N104LD
> RV-12 N122LD
>
>> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Square footage for painting
>> From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
>
>> Thanks for the input. What I was actually doing was querying a couple of
> auto
>> shops near the airport to paint the pieces for me to final assemble. They
> were
>> asking for approximate square footage since RV10 meant nothing to them, but
>> a couple of them have done aircraft projects before.
>> In the end, I decided against the auto shop idea. I still might self paint
> for
>> the challenge, but for the time it would take me I can easily pick up extra
> trips
>> at work and be money and time ahead.
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing
> kit and
>> FWF kit in progress.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Routing Fuel Line To Spider |
My engine came with the spider located between cylinders 3 and 5 with
the fuel line access coming up between those cylinders. Most of the
pics I have seen, the spider is situated so the line runs up between 1
and 3 which makes for easier routing.
Does anyone have the line routing up between 3 and 5 and have pics of
how they ran the line from the servo?
Thanks,
-Sean #40303 (fwf)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Routing Fuel Line To Spider |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
Sean,
My came from Lycoming mounted in the same location as yours. The fuel line runs
vertically beneath the spider. Since I installed Rod Bowers ram air mod, my
servo is not located in the traditional location. I can take pictures this
weekend if you need them.
Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
> My engine came with the spider located between cylinders 3 and 5 with the fuel
line access coming up between those cylinders. Most of the pics I have seen,
the spider is situated so the line runs up between 1 and 3 which makes for easier
routing.
>
> Does anyone have the line routing up between 3 and 5 and have pics of how they
ran the line from the servo?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Sean #40303 (fwf)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Routing Fuel Line To Spider |
What I'm trying to figure out is after dropping between the cylinders
the line should curve at the sump bolts and run along the sump over the
1 and 3 intakes or drop past the sump bolts and just free hang under the
intakes. I'm placing the red cube mounted similar to others by the
servo. Trying to envision the best route to take as I have to order
that pricey hose and would like to only order one of them. :)
-Sean
On 3/20/13 4:21 AM, Bob Leffler wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> My came from Lycoming mounted in the same location as yours. The fuel line runs
vertically beneath the spider. Since I installed Rod Bowers ram air mod,
my servo is not located in the traditional location. I can take pictures this
weekend if you need them.
>
> Bob
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
>>
>> My engine came with the spider located between cylinders 3 and 5 with the fuel
line access coming up between those cylinders. Most of the pics I have seen,
the spider is situated so the line runs up between 1 and 3 which makes for
easier routing.
>>
>> Does anyone have the line routing up between 3 and 5 and have pics of how they
ran the line from the servo?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Sean #40303 (fwf)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | FW: Panel design |
Guys
Not directly related with RV-10's, but I wonder if somebody knows about a
free software to help design the instrument panel layout.
Regards
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better and doesn't
have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Panel design |
I use TurboCAD software. It is relatively inexpensive. If you found some
free CAD software that would allow for 2D design and output to DWG or
DXF format, that should work well. Then you just need to draw up your
instruments and your radio stack and work on the arrangement on the
panel with the constraints behind the panel taken into account.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
On Mar 20, 2013, at 8:35 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Guys
>
> Not directly related with RV-10=92s, but I wonder if somebody knows
about a free software to help design the instrument panel layout.
>
> Regards
> Carlos
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Routing Fuel Line To Spider |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
I just reviewed the photos I have online, but didn't have any that shows what you
are looking for.
I have a 90 degree elbow between the sump and fuel servo. The servo is horizontal
instead of the traditional vertical orientation. I fabricated a mounting bracket
that uses the same studs on the sump as the elbow. I've mounted the fuel
flow sensor to that, which is almost directly below the spider. The Lycoming
supplied hose that was installed is a little long, but I can make it work.
All my other hoses aren't the standard lengths and were custom made by tsflightlines.
Remind me again if I don't follow up with a picture this weekend.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Sean Stephens wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is after dropping between the cylinders the line
should curve at the sump bolts and run along the sump over the 1 and 3 intakes
or drop past the sump bolts and just free hang under the intakes. I'm placing
the red cube mounted similar to others by the servo. Trying to envision the
best route to take as I have to order that pricey hose and would like to only
order one of them. :)
-Sean
On 3/20/13 4:21 AM, Bob Leffler wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> My came from Lycoming mounted in the same location as yours. The fuel line runs
vertically beneath the spider. Since I installed Rod Bowers ram air mod,
my servo is not located in the traditional location. I can take pictures this
weekend if you need them.
>
> Bob
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
>>
>> My engine came with the spider located between cylinders 3 and 5 with the fuel
line access coming up between those cylinders. Most of the pics I have seen,
the spider is situated so the line runs up between 1 and 3 which makes for
easier routing.
>>
>> Does anyone have the line routing up between 3 and 5 and have pics of how they
ran the line from the servo?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Sean #40303 (fwf)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Panel design |
I used XPanel. Its not free but IMHO its worth the $80.00. It saves much ti
me with the RV blank panel templates pre-designated plus all the avionics I
needed already in the system. Simple enough to learn and use.
If you want free; Google Chrome has a free CAD style app you can download f
or free and use to lay out a kitchen, backyard or panel. Just go to the Chr
ome app store. Sorry on my tablet now or would send you a link.
Robin
Carlos Trigo wrote:
Guys
Not directly related with RV-10=92s, but I wonder if somebody knows about a
free software to help design the instrument panel layout.
Regards
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
I know John, I did it several times many moons ago ...
But having a simple to use software, which has the actual digital
pictures
of the various equipments that can be dragged with the mouse to the
panel is
really that simple. No learning curve at all.
By the way, I do remember using, not so long ago, one called
=93epanelbuilder=94
or something like that, that I can=92t seem to find now. Anyone knows
about
this?
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=E7o de 2013 12:51
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
--> < johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better
and
doesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
List
7-Day
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
On my Glastar I did the paper setup first then used an acrylic 3mm
"sheet" to mount them, so I could see what is behind.
Werner
On 20.03.2013 13:50, johngoodman wrote:
>
> A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better and doesn't
have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
Werner
For the actual layout in the panel, in order to cut the holes, I will
use
that technique or something similar.
What I am looking right now is to begin from scratch, trying to figure
out
what goes where, what fits and what don=92t =85. Initial approach to the
layout
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner
Schneider
Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=E7o de 2013 15:14
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
glastar(at)gmx.net>
On my Glastar I did the paper setup first then used an acrylic 3mm
"sheet"
to mount them, so I could see what is behind.
Werner
On 20.03.2013 13:50, johngoodman wrote:
> --> < johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
>
> A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better
and
doesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
List
7-Day
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Square footage for painting |
I think you can negotiate what you want regarding reassembly with most paint
shops. My RV-7A was painted at Gillespie field in San Diego, and the
painter just left a hangar full of painted assemblies (rudder, elevators,
flaps, ailerons, canopy) sitting there for me to put back on the plane.
Which I remember doing on a day when the temperature was 102 degrees. :-P
The shop in Arkansas used a local A&P for disassembly and reassembly and
included that in the price, saying it was part of their normal workflow with
certificated aircraft and they didn't really want to change the process to
have a builder working on his plane in their shop areas. Which was fine
with me since it seemed like a pretty toxic environment - no dust or
pverspray but lots of fumes that everybody was breathing in. But I sure
checked everything when I picked the plane up, for which I flew the RV-7A
with a CFI friend from Nashville over to Arkansas. This gave the
opportunity for one of the coolest pictures of the -10 fresh out of the
paint shop, with its little brother:
http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/RV7-RV10-Mena.jpg
Funny story about that RV-10 paint job was that I took the plane in sometime
in November of 2007 and they told me there would be a ten day delay in
starting the project, since deer hunting season started the day after I
delivered the plane, and the entire shop staff would be out in the woods. :)
-Dan
>From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Square footage for painting
>
>Just looking into this also as I'm 90% done and 90% to go. :)
>
>One thing I was curious about is does the builder normally do the control
surface removal and re-assembly
>at the paint shop? I think I would want to just to have piece of mind that
it was put back together per
>plans.
>
>-Sean #40303 (fwf)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
Carlos
You can use Panel Planner to do the layout. It has templates that also have
slave requirements for behind the panel.
You can drag and rearrange until you are happy with the result.
Cheers
Les
Sent from my iPhone
On 2013-03-20, at 9:53 AM, "Carlos Trigo" wrote:
> Werner
>
> For the actual layout in the panel, in order to cut the holes, I will use t
hat technique or something similar.
>
> What I am looking right now is to begin from scratch, trying to figure out
what goes where, what fits and what don=99t . Initial approa
ch to the layout
>
> Carlos
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider
> Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=C3=A7o de 2013 15:14
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
>
>
> On my Glastar I did the paper setup first then used an acrylic 3mm "sheet"
to mount them, so I could see what is behind.
>
> Werner
>
> On 20.03.2013 13:50, johngoodman wrote:
> > -->
> >
> > A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better an
d doesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
> > John
> >
> > --------
> > #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
If you own Photoshop, or visio or can locate a free app that can read
the Vans panel than should be able to grab pictures off of brochures or
on the web of your planned avionics and place it on the Vans panel. I
think I measured all the dimensions than made the templates in Visio
once I worked out the spacing issues I put it all in photoshop to see
how it all looked.
From: Carlos Trigo
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
Werner
For the actual layout in the panel, in order to cut the holes, I will
use that technique or something similar.
What I am looking right now is to begin from scratch, trying to figure
out what goes where, what fits and what don=99t . Initial
approach to the layout
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner
Schneider
Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=C3=A7o de 2013 15:14
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
On my Glastar I did the paper setup first then used an acrylic 3mm
"sheet" to mount them, so I could see what is behind.
Werner
On 20.03.2013 13:50, johngoodman wrote:
> -->
>
> A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better
and doesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Panel design |
Hi Carlos,
If you're after 2D CAD software, you can download Dassault DraftSight
free. This is not a "panel planner" in the sense of showing the
instruments and avionics, but more of a "hole planner" and something you
can then use to CNC cut the panel.
Attached is the .dwg file for my RV-10 panel (in development).
Cheers,
Gordon
On Mar 20, 2013, at 1:35 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Guys
>
> Not directly related with RV-10=92s, but I wonder if somebody knows
about a free software to help design the instrument panel layout.
>
> Regards
> Carlos
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Cabin heat control knobs |
Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:
- Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control the
rear and front cabin heat?
Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel, and
the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this control
(only) reachable by the rear passengers?
- Those of you who used the modified "T" (VA175), in order to have
left / right control, where did you put the control knob for this feature?
Cheers
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Cabin heat control knobs |
Both heat control knobs need to be accessible to the pilot. I find that 90%
of the time when I have heat on I just have the rear on. I find no real
need for a left/right control - but to each his/her own.
I have the oil cooler air butterfly valve (blank knob) control on the pilot
only side of the panel, next to the alternate engine air (red knob) control.
The heat knobs are next to each other on the co-pilot side (but reachable
from the pilot seat). That way the co-pilot will not mistakenly touch the
oil cooler or alt air controls. All controls are on the panel apron. When
you pick the spots, make sure you do not create interference for full stick
travel.
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:15 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Cabin heat control knobs
Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:
- Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control the
rear and front cabin heat?
Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel, and
the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this control
(only) reachable by the rear passengers?
- Those of you who used the modified "T" (VA175), in order to have
left / right control, where did you put the control knob for this feature?
Cheers
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
One thing to keep in mind ..... equipment mounting data can be had from
the manufacturer but may not include the dimensions of the bezel .....
which you need to know when mounting items close together.
Linn
On 3/20/2013 11:53 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Werner
>
> For the actual layout in the panel, in order to cut the holes, I will
> use that technique or something similar.
>
> What I am looking right now is to begin from scratch, trying to figure
> out what goes where, what fits and what don't .... Initial approach to
> the layout
>
> Carlos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner
> Schneider
> Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=E7o de 2013 15:14
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
>
> >
>
> On my Glastar I did the paper setup first then used an acrylic 3mm
> "sheet" to mount them, so I could see what is behind.
>
> Werner
>
> On 20.03.2013 13:50, johngoodman wrote:
>
>
> > --> >
>
> >
>
> > A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work
> better and doesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty
> cheap.
>
> > John
>
> >
>
> > --------
>
> > #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
13
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Don't forget to sit in the real airplane, in the actual flying seating position,
and look at paper cutouts on the panel. You can check the ease and feel as you
reach for things; that nothing important is hidden under the glare shield;
and that important things like the PFD are in focus (important for me as I wear
bifocals!).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396678#396678
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
| From: | Steve T <aircraftspecialty(at)gmail.com> |
We will be making an announcement once we get the website fully updated. We
are planning on videos of the whole process.
But for now, if you are interested, we offer Cnc design, panel cutting, powd
ercoat and screen labeling of panels at incredible prices. We will make an a
nnouncement once we have the full site up, but go to
www.aircraftspecialty.com
for more Information.
Or, please email us at
steve(at)aircraftspecialty.com
We have already started designing and cutting panels and would be happy to w
ork with you. We are home builders and will be happy to help you with all t
he little ins and outs of getting your panel perfect.
Have a great day
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2013, at 10:06, "Carlos Trigo" wrote:
> I know John, I did it several times many moons ago ...
>
> But having a simple to use software, which has the actual digital pictures
of the various equipments that can be dragged with the mouse to the panel i
s really that simple. No learning curve at all.
>
> By the way, I do remember using, not so long ago, one called =9Cepan
elbuilder=9D or something like that, that I can=99t seem to find
now. Anyone knows about this?
>
> Carlos
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
> Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=C3=A7o de 2013 12:51
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
>
> -->
>
> A large sheet of paper cut to the size of the panel would work better and d
oesn't have a learning curve. Number 2 pencils are pretty cheap.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396641#396641
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-10 chases me on the Autobahn ;-) |
| From: | "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> |
Today I took my RV-10 fuselage from the paintshop to the airport. In the stop-motion
video it looks as if the RV is chasing me through Switzerland, funny to
watch.
Please don't ask why I kept the rear trunk window open while unloading the RV,
I guess I meant to hide the secret on how to do it ;-)
Wings & tail feathers are coming shortly as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjGn8UKagJM
....and yes in the tunnel I accelerated to the speed of light as the the video
proofs.
Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (interior & finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396695#396695
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cabin heat control knobs |
| From: | Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> |
I put these controls and the air filter bypass on a plate that attached to t
he rear of the panel with screws from the front. The knobs fit through an ov
al hole cut in the panel. Otherwise the controls will have to be removed if y
ou want to take the panel out. Makes service much easier.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:14 PM, "Carlos Trigo" wrote:
> Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:
>
> - Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control t
he rear and front cabin heat?
> Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel, and
the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this contro
l (only) reachable by the rear passengers?
>
> - Those of you who used the modified =9CT=9D (VA175), i
n order to have left / right control, where did you put the control knob for
this feature?
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick & Vicki Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
In addition to Bob's excellent advice, when it comes to switch layout; think
about a logical order of switch usage i.e. going down a row rather than
jumping around when running the checklist.
Also consider where the important autopilot power switch and fuel pump
switches will be; these should readily available and easily reached.
Finally the primary flight display should be as close to centered in front
of the pilots head as possible. Looking cross cockpit at the flight display
will bug you. Stay away from unconventional arrangements; most certified
panels are similar for a reason, they work. A good conventional panel will
add much to your enjoyment of the airplane and add to resale value.
Dick Sipp
470 hours
Dick Sipp
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Turner
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:32 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
Don't forget to sit in the real airplane, in the actual flying seating
position, and look at paper cutouts on the panel. You can check the ease and
feel as you reach for things; that nothing important is hidden under the
glare shield; and that important things like the PFD are in focus (important
for me as I wear bifocals!).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396678#396678
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 chases me on the Autobahn ;-) |
| From: | "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> |
Very cool Michael! The airplane looks beautiful.
BTW, package from Mary will be heading your way tomorrow.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Transition Trainer
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396708#396708
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com> |
Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding that
even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep things
warm, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind
the panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air
blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect the air hose
to the muff, since the exhaust pipe would probably get too hot. If
nothing else, I figure I could disconnect the air hose between the muff and
firewall at the firewall and just point it down toward the cowl exit. Of
course, I would have to seal the hole in the firewall.
Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Cabin heat control knobs |
Jesse
Will you please send me a picture of your setup.
Thanks
Carlos
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=C3=A7o de 2013 23:16
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cabin heat control knobs
I put these controls and the air filter bypass on a plate that attached
to the rear of the panel with screws from the front. The knobs fit
through an oval hole cut in the panel. Otherwise the controls will have
to be removed if you want to take the panel out. Makes service much
easier.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:14 PM, "Carlos Trigo"
wrote:
Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:
- Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control
the rear and front cabin heat?
Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel,
and the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this
control (only) reachable by the rear passengers?
- Those of you who used the modified =9CT=9D (VA175),
in order to have left / right control, where did you put the control
knob for this feature?
Cheers
Carlos
=========
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
=========
cs.com
=========
matronics.com/contribution
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
On 3/20/2013 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding
> that even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep
> things warm, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize
> heat behind the panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all
> that hot air blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just
> disconnect the air hose to the muff, since the exhaust pipe would
> probably get too hot. If nothing else, I figure I could disconnect
> the air hose between the muff and firewall at the firewall and just
> point it down toward the cowl exit. Of course, I would have to seal
> the hole in the firewall.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
You can block off some of the hole going to the heat muff with
metal-tape for winter and cover it all during summer. Or you can route
around the heat muff during summer so you get cool air through the heat
vents. I wouldn't worry about overheating that exhaust pipe ......
Linn
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel design |
| From: | Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com> |
One other tip in case it helps. I used the plastic covers for switches to make
them easily identifiable and layer them in an order that makes sense to me.
I used red for power (battery and alternator), green for avionics (cause they
cost a lot of money), blue for fuel pump, white for lights and yellow for pitot
heat. This way a quick glance and I'm ready for any phase be it engine start,
takeoff or shutdown.
Cheers,
Marcus
On Mar 20, 2013, at 7:37 PM, "Dick & Vicki Sipp" wrote:
In addition to Bob's excellent advice, when it comes to switch layout; think about
a logical order of switch usage i.e. going down a row rather than jumping
around when running the checklist.
Also consider where the important autopilot power switch and fuel pump switches
will be; these should readily available and easily reached. Finally the primary
flight display should be as close to centered in front of the pilots head as
possible. Looking cross cockpit at the flight display will bug you. Stay away
from unconventional arrangements; most certified panels are similar for a
reason, they work. A good conventional panel will add much to your enjoyment
of the airplane and add to resale value.
Dick Sipp
470 hours
Dick Sipp
-----Original Message----- From: Bob Turner
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:32 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Panel design
Don't forget to sit in the real airplane, in the actual flying seating position,
and look at paper cutouts on the panel. You can check the ease and feel as you
reach for things; that nothing important is hidden under the glare shield;
and that important things like the PFD are in focus (important for me as I wear
bifocals!).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396678#396678
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | "nukeflyboy" <flymoore(at)charter.net> |
I have disabled mine for the summer months too. I disconnected the SCAT tube so
hot air no longer blows on the firewall. I also blocked the vent adapter at
the baffle to prevent any bypass air flow around the cylinders. It helped a
bit and I would not worry about the exhaust pipes.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396730#396730
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> |
Rob,
Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine it getting too h
ot there and being ok with the temperature along the rest of the exhaust. I'
d leave it off completely. Instead, you might hook it up as normal and just c
over over the hole in the baffles so you could easily add it if you want to.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
www.mavericklsa.com
C: 352-427-0285
O: 352-465-4545
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding that
even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep things warm
, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind the p
anel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air blowing on t
he firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect the air hose to the muff, s
ince the exhaust pipe would probably get too hot. If nothing else, I figu
re I could disconnect the air hose between the muff and firewall at the fire
wall and just point it down toward the cowl exit. Of course, I would have t
o seal the hole in the firewall.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, guys... my concern is that with no airflow into the muff, it's
acting as an insulator on the exhaust pipe. Perhaps it's nothing to worry
about, though.
-Rob
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
> Rob,
>
> Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine it getting too
> hot there and being ok with the temperature along the rest of the exhaust.
> I'd leave it off completely. Instead, you might hook it up as normal and
> just cover over the hole in the baffles so you could easily add it if you
> want to.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> www.mavericklsa.com
> C: 352-427-0285
> O: 352-465-4545
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>
> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding that
> even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep things
> warm, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind
> the panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air
> blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect the air hose
> to the muff, since the exhaust pipe would probably get too hot. If
> nothing else, I figure I could disconnect the air hose between the muff and
> firewall at the firewall and just point it down toward the cowl exit. Of
> course, I would have to seal the hole in the firewall.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
> *
>
> ==================================
> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===================================cs.com
> ===================================matronics.com/contribution
> ==================================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I spoke with Vetterman on this subject. His advice was adamant, do not just disconnect
the air going through the muff. It will get to hot in that one area,
but to remove the heat muff completely and install a heat shield on the exhaust
tubing as necessary to keep the heat away from the cowl.
It is my belief that the air outlet at the rear of #6 cylinder actually helps the
cooling of #6 by not allowing stagnant air to dam at the rear of the baffle.
On the right side, #5 is always the hottest cylinder, and the fix is to allow
more air to escape either around #5 or through the rear.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396743#396743
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Steel Fittings FWF - Which coating? |
I am a bit confused by all the different coatings available on the steel
AN fittings. I ordered some steel fittings from ACS, but they were not
as pictured and were black. I don't think they have a coating at all.
I've seen some that are zinc and some that are yellow dichromate.
Which ones are suitable for use as fuel line fittings firewall forward?
Or does it even really matter and my un-coated steel fittings are fine?
Thanks,
-Sean #40303
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel Fittings FWF - Which coating? |
| From: | "charliewaffles" <mcooper(at)live.com> |
All my FWF Steel fittings are uncoated. There are some that are black coated -
these appear to be from the racing world and are acceptable in experimental.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396750#396750
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cabin heat control knobs |
| From: | "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> |
photo attached...
Cheers,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396759#396759
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim0946_872.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
Rob,
I think your concern is valid. The muff will insulate the exhaust pipe
and you may end up with a high temperature gradient between the section
outside the muff and inside it, possibly resulting in deformation or
cracking after a while. Since cracking would release exhaust into the
cowl area, it could become a real concern. Personally I would keep the
cool air supply to the muff and dump the hot air coming out of it. Since
that is what happens in the stock system when the heater flap valve is
closed, I don't follow why you want to disable it at all, rather than
just not use it. If I really wanted to disable it I would probably just
disconnect the control cable and use Biotherm to seal the flap in the
closed position.
Gordon Anderson
On Mar 21, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Thanks, guys... my concern is that with no airflow into the muff, it's
acting as an insulator on the exhaust pipe. Perhaps it's nothing to
worry about, though.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Jesse Saint
wrote:
> Rob,
>
> Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine it getting
too hot there and being ok with the temperature along the rest of the
exhaust. I'd leave it off completely. Instead, you might hook it up as
normal and just cover over the hole in the baffles so you could easily
add it if you want to.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> www.mavericklsa.com
> C: 352-427-0285
> O: 352-465-4545
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>
>> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding
that even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep
things warm, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize
heat behind the panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that
hot air blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect
the air hose to the muff, since the exhaust pipe would probably get too
hot. If nothing else, I figure I could disconnect the air hose
between the muff and firewall at the firewall and just point it down
toward the cowl exit. Of course, I would have to seal the hole in the
firewall.
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> --
>> Rob Kochman
>> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
>> Woodinville, WA
>> http://kochman.net/N819K
>>
>>
>> =========
>> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> =========
>> cs.com
>> =========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>>
>
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | Main landing gear leg dimension |
Can someone who does not have the landing gear strut pants on, measure
the width of the leg for me? I think it is 2=9D but need
confirmation.
Thank you!
Pascal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it is that it dumps hot air
directly onto the firewall, which makes the cabin warmer. Anyone know if
it's possible to remove the heat muff completely?
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Gordon Anderson wrote:
> Rob,
>
> I think your concern is valid. The muff will insulate the exhaust pipe
> and you may end up with a high temperature gradient between the section
> outside the muff and inside it, possibly resulting in deformation or
> cracking after a while. Since cracking would release exhaust into the cowl
> area, it could become a real concern. Personally I would keep the cool air
> supply to the muff and dump the hot air coming out of it. Since that is
> what happens in the stock system when the heater flap valve is closed, I
> don't follow why you want to disable it at all, rather than just not use
> it. If I really wanted to disable it I would probably just disconnect the
> control cable and use Biotherm to seal the flap in the closed position.
>
> Gordon Anderson
>
> On Mar 21, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>
> Thanks, guys... my concern is that with no airflow into the muff, it's
> acting as an insulator on the exhaust pipe. Perhaps it's nothing to worry
> about, though.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>> Rob,
>>
>> Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine it getting
>> too hot there and being ok with the temperature along the rest of the
>> exhaust. I'd leave it off completely. Instead, you might hook it up as
>> normal and just cover over the hole in the baffles so you could easily add
>> it if you want to.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>> jesse(at)itecusa.org
>> www.itecusa.org
>> www.mavericklsa.com
>> C: 352-427-0285
>> O: 352-465-4545
>> F: 815-377-3694
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding
>> that even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep things
>> warm, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind
>> the panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air
>> blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect the air hose
>> to the muff, since the exhaust pipe would probably get too hot. If
>> nothing else, I figure I could disconnect the air hose between the muff and
>> firewall at the firewall and just point it down toward the cowl exit. Of
>> course, I would have to seal the hole in the firewall.
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> --
>> Rob Kochman
>> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
>> Woodinville, WA
>> http://kochman.net/N819K
>>
>> *
>>
>> =========
>> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========cs.com
>> ==========matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listtp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
It took me a while, but I finally understand!!! Which causes my addled
brain to ask ..... Did anyone insulate the firewall??? On the engine
side or cabin side ..... and with what???
Linn .... so many things to think about ....
On 3/22/2013 4:46 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it is that it dumps hot
> air directly onto the firewall, which makes the cabin warmer. Anyone
> know if it's possible to remove the heat muff completely?
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Gordon Anderson > wrote:
>
> Rob,
>
> I think your concern is valid. The muff will insulate the exhaust
> pipe and you may end up with a high temperature gradient between
> the section outside the muff and inside it, possibly resulting in
> deformation or cracking after a while. Since cracking would
> release exhaust into the cowl area, it could become a real
> concern. Personally I would keep the cool air supply to the muff
> and dump the hot air coming out of it. Since that is what happens
> in the stock system when the heater flap valve is closed, I don't
> follow why you want to disable it at all, rather than just not use
> it. If I really wanted to disable it I would probably just
> disconnect the control cable and use Biotherm to seal the flap in
> the closed position.
>
> Gordon Anderson
>
> On Mar 21, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>
>> Thanks, guys... my concern is that with no airflow into the muff,
>> it's acting as an insulator on the exhaust pipe. Perhaps it's
>> nothing to worry about, though.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Jesse Saint
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Rob,
>>
>> Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine
>> it getting too hot there and being ok with the temperature
>> along the rest of the exhaust. I'd leave it off completely.
>> Instead, you might hook it up as normal and just cover over
>> the hole in the baffles so you could easily add it if you
>> want to.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>> jesse(at)itecusa.org
>> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
>> www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com/>
>> C: 352-427-0285
>> O: 352-465-4545
>> F: 815-377-3694
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman > > wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10?
>>> I'm finding that even on really cold days, I only need
>>> partial rear heat to keep things warm, and I never use the
>>> front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind the panel.
>>> In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air
>>> blowing on the firewall. I don't think I can just
>>> disconnect the air hose to the muff, since the exhaust pipe
>>> would probably get too hot. If nothing else, I figure I
>>> could disconnect the air hose between the muff and firewall
>>> at the firewall and just point it down toward the cowl exit.
>>> Of course, I would have to seal the hole in the firewall.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rob Kochman
>>> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
>>> Woodinville, WA
>>> http://kochman.net/N819K
>>> *
>>>
>>> =========
>>> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
>>> =========
>>> cs.com <http://cs.com/>
>>> =========
>>> matronics.com/contribution <http://matronics.com/contribution>
>>> =========
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rob Kochman
>> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
>> Woodinville, WA
>> http://kochman.net/N819K
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
On my other plan, the Glastar we had the same problem, the closed valve
did dump all hot air direct into the upper FW area, nothing we did like.
One of our builders manufactured an enclosure around the heat valve and
that enclosure did dump all air via another scat tube directly to the
exit ramp of the cowling. Now the Glastar has a different type of valve
but I see no reason why one could fabricate a similar thing for the RV-10.
Werner
On 22.03.2013 21:46, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it is that it dumps hot
> air directly onto the firewall, which makes the cabin warmer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
No. Anything fwf can oil soaked and potentially interfere with servicing.
Leave as is.
Robin
Linn wrote:
It took me a while, but I finally understand!!! Which causes my addled bra
in to ask ..... Did anyone insulate the firewall??? On the engine side or
cabin side ..... and with what???
Linn .... so many things to think about ....
On 3/22/2013 4:46 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it is that it dumps hot air
directly onto the firewall, which makes the cabin warmer. Anyone know if i
t's possible to remove the heat muff completely?
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Gordon Anderson > wrote:
Rob,
I think your concern is valid. The muff will insulate the exhaust pipe and
you may end up with a high temperature gradient between the section outsid
e the muff and inside it, possibly resulting in deformation or cracking aft
er a while. Since cracking would release exhaust into the cowl area, it co
uld become a real concern. Personally I would keep the cool air supply to
the muff and dump the hot air coming out of it. Since that is what happens
in the stock system when the heater flap valve is closed, I don't follow w
hy you want to disable it at all, rather than just not use it. If I really
wanted to disable it I would probably just disconnect the control cable an
d use Biotherm to seal the flap in the closed position.
Gordon Anderson
On Mar 21, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
Thanks, guys... my concern is that with no airflow into the muff, it's acti
ng as an insulator on the exhaust pipe. Perhaps it's nothing to worry abou
t, though.
-Rob
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Jesse Saint > wrote:
Rob,
Not all exhaust pipes even have heat muffs. I can't imagine it getting too
hot there and being ok with the temperature along the rest of the exhaust.
I'd leave it off completely. Instead, you might hook it up as normal and ju
st cover over the hole in the baffles so you could easily add it if you wan
t to.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org<http://www.itecusa.org/>
www.mavericklsa.com<http://www.mavericklsa.com/>
C: 352-427-0285
O: 352-465-4545
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob Kochman @gmail.com>> wrote:
Has anyone disabled the front cabin heat in their RV-10? I'm finding that
even on really cold days, I only need partial rear heat to keep things warm
, and I never use the front heat, since I want to minimize heat behind the
panel. In the warm summer months, I don't want all that hot air blowing on
the firewall. I don't think I can just disconnect the air hose to the muf
f, since the exhaust pipe would probably get too hot. If nothing else, I
figure I could disconnect the air hose between the muff and firewall at th
e firewall and just point it down toward the cowl exit. Of course, I would
have to seal the hole in the firewall.
Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks...
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
=========
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator
?RV10-List>
=========
cs.com<http://cs.com/>
=========
matronics.com/contribution<http://matronics.com/contribution>
=========
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
03/21/13
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Disabling front cabin heat? |
I posted this awhile back on what I did:
I have a small piece of KoolMat
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ap/insulation/koolmat.php on the
firewall. It is between the cabin heat control valves and the firewall,
then extents up and over the top of the valves. The idea is to not blast
the engine and fuel pump with hot heat muff air that bounces off the valves
back toward the engine when the valves are shut (on hot days when you least
want hot air banging on the fuel pump). So the KoolMat insulates some
thermal heat transfer to the firewall, and looping the KoolMat over the top
and then down in front of the valves directs the dumped heat muff air down
and away from the engine.
Regarding the heat muff air itself, there is a balance between having heat
on a cold day, and on hot days robbing engine cooling air off the top of the
engine just to dump hot air near the cowl exit - right where you want the
lowest pressure possible to draw more cooling air through the engine. I
have two 2" SCAT hose flanges over #5 cylinder, one for each heat muff.
This proved to be way too much air volume. I put a piece of .025 aluminum
disc with a 1" hole in it over the edge of each flange (the disc is just a
bit bigger than the flange diameter). The disc is held in with aluminum
tape and the SCAT hose slides over it. This does two things; reduces the
volume of air coming off the top of the engine and slows down the air in the
heat muff so the air is warmer, but less flow in the cabin. This is still
more heat than I'll likely ever need, but I'm happy with the compromise. If
you are still building, an easier way to do this is to just have one 2"
flange on the rear baffle, then a Y to connect two SCAT hoses.
One other trick I did was fabricate a couple of 2" to 1.5" reducers so I
could run 1.5" SCAT hose in the tunnel for the rear heat. This solves a lot
of clearance issues caused by the 2" rear heat SCAT hose.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Disabling front cabin heat?
On my other plan, the Glastar we had the same problem, the closed valve did
dump all hot air direct into the upper FW area, nothing we did like.
One of our builders manufactured an enclosure around the heat valve and that
enclosure did dump all air via another scat tube directly to the exit ramp
of the cowling. Now the Glastar has a different type of valve but I see no
reason why one could fabricate a similar thing for the RV-10.
Werner
On 22.03.2013 21:46, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it is that it dumps hot
> air directly onto the firewall, which makes the cabin warmer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cabin heat control knobs |
| From: | John Zazulka <jpiper623(at)gmail.com> |
Unrelated post but has anyone veiwed the new conforma tips for the
RV-7,8,9, and RV-10 and F1 rocket from aveoengineering.com. They look
really nice.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote
:
> Jesse****
>
> ** **
>
> Will you please send me a picture of your setup.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks****
>
> Carlos ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jesse Saint
> *Sent:* quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=E7o de 2013 23:16
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Cabin heat control knobs****
>
> ** **
>
> I put these controls and the air filter bypass on a plate that attached t
o
> the rear of the panel with screws from the front. The knobs fit through a
n
> oval hole cut in the panel. Otherwise the controls will have to be remove
d
> if you want to take the panel out. Makes service much easier.
>
> Sent from my iPad****
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:14 PM, "Carlos Trigo" wrote
:
> ****
>
> Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:****
>
> ****
>
> - Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control
> the rear and front cabin heat?****
>
> Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel, an
d
> the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this
> control (only) reachable by the rear passengers?****
>
> ****
>
> - Those of you who used the modified =93T=94 (VA175), in order to
have
> left / right control, where did you put the control knob for this feature
?
> ****
>
> ****
>
> Cheers****
>
> Carlos ****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *========================
===========*
>
> *://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> *========================
===========*
>
> *cs.com*
>
> *========================
===========*
>
> *matronics.com/contribution*
>
> *========================
===========*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *< - The RV10-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navig
ator to browse*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
>
===========
===========
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cabin heat control knobs |
| From: | John Zazulka <jpiper623(at)gmail.com> |
Go to Blog and scroll down.
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:28 PM, John Zazulka wrote:
> Unrelated post but has anyone veiwed the new conforma tips for the
> RV-7,8,9, and RV-10 and F1 rocket from aveoengineering.com. They look
> really nice.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Carlos Trigo wrot
e:
>
>> Jesse****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Will you please send me a picture of your setup.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> Carlos ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jesse Saint
>> *Sent:* quarta-feira, 20 de Mar=E7o de 2013 23:16
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Cabin heat control knobs****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I put these controls and the air filter bypass on a plate that attached
>> to the rear of the panel with screws from the front. The knobs fit throu
gh
>> an oval hole cut in the panel. Otherwise the controls will have to be
>> removed if you want to take the panel out. Makes service much easier.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad****
>>
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:14 PM, "Carlos Trigo"
>> wrote:****
>>
>> Regarding the cabin heat system, I have a couple of questions:****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> - Where did you put the control knobs of the cables which control
>> the rear and front cabin heat?****
>>
>> Is it good to put the front heat control knob in the instrument panel,
>> and the rear heat control knob behind the front seats, thus leaving this
>> control (only) reachable by the rear passengers?****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> - Those of you who used the modified =93T=94 (VA175), in order to
have
>> left / right control, where did you put the control knob for this featur
e?
>> ****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Cheers****
>>
>> Carlos ****
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *=======================
============*
>>
>> *://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>>
>> *=======================
============*
>>
>> *cs.com*
>>
>> *=======================
============*
>>
>> *matronics.com/contribution*
>>
>> *=======================
============*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | "Greg McFarlane" <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com> |
One simple way of keeping both front and rear heat from blasting hot air on the
firewall, fuel pump etc when not needed is to install Aircraft Spruce Part #
08-07296 and dump the hot air down near the bottom. The down side is one or two
more push- pulls. Cheers Greg
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396846#396846
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
> It took me a while, but I finally understand!!! Which causes my addled brain
to ask ..... Did anyone insulate the firewall??? On the engine side or cabin side
..... and with what???
> Linn .... so many things to think about ....
Firewall heat is not an issue for me because of my LS1 Corvette engine, which is
water cooled. I use hoses from the water pump connected to a race car defroster/heater.
The two speed motor on the heater works fine. I also have a water
cutoff push/pull for heat control and/or leaks. But, that's not what you're asking....
Here is what I used on the engine side of the firewall:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/firewall2000.php?clickkey=97077
It's actually called a firewall ceramic blanket. I used a combination of rivets
and a caulk type adhesive that is recommended for the blanket. The stainless
steel side will cut you like nobody's business! It's holding up great.
I used the standard Soundex insulation on the cabin side of the firewall. I also used Abesco FP200 expanding foam in the floors, etc. Here is a link to it: http://fp200abesco.com/
Hope this helps,
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396853#396853
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Disabling front cabin heat? |
Sure you can remove the heat muff.... I did... And as far as I know.... =0A
no =0Aone has done this....- I have cold air induction, and one of the th
ings I=0A did to cool things down a bit was to run the rear cabin heat air
=0Astraight out of the back of #5 cyl over the top and into a fiberglass
=0A"Y" I made that has the 4" line from #6 and that 2" line from #5 going
=0Ainto the "Y", and into the oil cooler.- In the winter I put alum tape
=0Aover the outlet for the 2" line (at the back of the plenum for #5) and
=0Ause the butterfly valve on the 4" line to keep the oil temp exactly =0Aw
here I want it.
I also used a "Y" to split the heat from the remaining muff into both the f
ront and rear heat ducts.
Don McDonald
500+ hours, ad it gets better every day!
--- On Fri, 3/22/13, Linn wrote:
From: Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Disabling front cabin heat?
Date: Friday, March 22, 2013, 4:36 PM
=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A =0A It took me a while, but I finally=0A u
nderstand!!!- Which causes my addled brain to ask ..... Did=0A anyon
e insulate the firewall???- On the engine side or cabin side=0A ....
. and with what???
=0A Linn .... so many things to think about ....
=0A
=0A
=0A On 3/22/2013 4:46 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
=0A =0A =0A Thanks, Gordon... the reason I want to disable it=0A
is that it dumps hot air directly onto the firewall, which makes=0A
the cabin warmer. -Anyone know if it's possible to remove the=0A
heat muff completely?=0A
=0A
=0A On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Gordon=0A Anderson =0A wrote:
=0A =0A Rob,=0A
=0A =0A I think your concern is valid. -The muf
f will=0A insulate the exhaust pipe and you may end up with
a high=0A temperature gradient between the section outside t
he=0A muff and inside it, possibly resulting in deformation
or=0A cracking after a while. -Since cracking would releas
e=0A exhaust into the cowl area, it could become a real=0A
concern. -Personally I would keep the cool air supply to=0A
the muff and dump the hot air coming out of it. Since=0A
that is what happens in the stock system when the heater=0A
flap valve is closed, I -don't follow why you want to=0A
disable it at all, rather than just not use it. -If I=0A
really wanted to disable it I would probably just=0A
disconnect the control cable and use Biotherm to seal=0A
the flap in the closed position.=0A
=0A =0A Gordon Anderson=0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A
On Mar 21, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Rob Kochman=0A
wrote:=0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A
=0A =0A Thanks, gu
ys... my concern is=0A that with no airflow into t
he muff, it's=0A acting as an insulator on the exh
aust pipe.=0A -Perhaps it's nothing to worry abo
ut, though.=0A =0A
=0A =0A -Rob=0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A
=0A =0A =0A
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:32=0A AM, Jesse
Saint =0A wrote:
=0A =0A =0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A Rob,=0A
=0A =0A Not a
ll exhaust pipes even have=0A heat muffs.
I can't imagine it getting=0A too hot ther
e and being ok with the=0A temperature alo
ng the rest of the=0A exhaust. I'd leave i
t off completely.=0A Instead, you might ho
ok it up as=0A normal and just cover over
the hole in=0A the baffles so you could ea
sily add it=0A if you want to.-
=0A
=0A Jesse Saint=0A
I-TEC, Inc.=0A jesse(at)itecusa.org
=0A www.itecusa.org=0A
www.mavericklsa.com=0A C: 35
2-427-0285=0A O: 352-465-4545=0A
F: 815-377-3694=0A
=0A =0A S
ent from my iPhone=0A =0A
=0A
=0A On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Rob=0A
Kochman =0A
wrote:
=0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A Has anyone disabled the
front=0A cabin heat in their RV-10?
-I'm=0A finding that even on real
ly cold=0A days, I only need partial
rear=0A heat to keep things warm, a
nd I=0A never use the front heat, si
nce=0A I want to minimize heat behin
d=0A the panel. -In the warm summe
r=0A months, I don't want all that
=0A hot air blowing on the firewall.
=0A -I don't think I can just=0A
disconnect the air hose to the=0A
muff, since the exhaust pipe=0A
would probably get too hot. -=0A
-If nothing else, I figure I=0A
could disconnect the air hose=0A
between the muff and firewall at=0A
the firewall and just point it=0A
down toward the cowl exit. -Of=0A
course, I would have to seal the=0A
hole in the firewall. -=0A
=0A
=0A =0A
Anyone have any=0A sugg
estions? -Thanks...=0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A
-Rob
=0A
=0A =0A
--
=0A Rob Kochman
=0A RV-10 Flying since March=0A
2011=0A
Woodinville, WA=0A
http://kochman.net/N819K=0A =0A
=0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A=0A===========0A://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0A===========0Acs.
com=0A===========0Amatronics.com/contribution=0A==
=========0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A=0Aget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A =0A --
=0A Rob Kochman
=0A RV-10 Flying since March 2011=0A
Woodinville, WA=0A http://kochman.net/N819
K=0A =0A =0A =0A
=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f
orums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:/
/www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A=0Aget="_blank">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_
blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A =0A --
=0A Rob Kochman
=0A RV-10 Flying since March 2011=0A Woodinville, WA=0A
http://kochman.net/N819K=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A No virus=0A
found in this message.
=0A Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
=0A 03/21/13=0A =0A
======================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
I was reviewing the published list of 149 airport tower closure
s and was really surprised that I have landed 26 of the 149 on the list. I
was further surprised that one of my home airports Whiteman (WHP) is slated
for tower closure. Now I totally understand that if some towers MUST be cl
osed than choices need to be made and I further understand the NIMBY attitu
de of sure close some towers but not MY towers. That being said let me desc
ribe WHP to you and you can decide if this tower closure is a good idea.
WHP is a one runway airport that sits under the Los Angeles Cla
ss B veil for LAX. WHP is 4 miles from Burbank commercial airport and 4 mil
es from Van Nuys airport both very busy hubs if aviation. Furthermore WHP s
its near the Newhall pass which is a bit of a funnel for aircraft feeding i
nto and out the San Fernando Valley. Additionally WHP hosts 5 of LA's news
helicopters which park and hover taxi maybe 90 feet from the runway centerl
ine adjacent to the 30 run up area. Whitman is also home for the CDF (Calif
ornia Fire Department) heavy lift fire helicopters. Wikipedia says that Cal
Fire is "one of the largest non-military air programs in the country that
includes 11 UH01H Super Huey helicopters flying out of WHP. I know because
they park and take off right behind my WHP hangar. The launch/landing area
for CDF is "not visible" from the tower and requires extra tower control ca
re for transitioning in and out of this area. WHP also hosts a modest amoun
t of student training. Not a great deal of student training because costs h
ave driven away many who may be interested in learning to fly. Additionall
y there is a fair amount of police helicopter activity in the area because
WHP is near some major highways 5, 118, 405, 101, 134, 210. Police tent to
hover right at TPA for WHP.
So the typical WHP weekend scenario is the student pilot doing
T & G's while 3 737's are queued up to land Burbank as Golf streams are roc
keting out of VNY with police helicopters hovering over the nearby freeways
while the news choppers hover taxi back to their landing pad after their m
ornings work and small aircraft transition into and out of BUR or VNY. All
while CDF heavy lift choppers fly in and out of their compound directly und
er the Left Downwind but blind to what is happening on and around the activ
e runway. This is all occurring under LAX's Class B vial, under the VNY air
space and in a little carve out of the Burbank airspace (SFC/4800'). All th
is with mountain peaks covering 180 degrees and within 5 miles of WHP. I ha
ve heard the tower chew out oblivious pilots dozens and dozens of times for
clueless & illegal transitioning of the airspace. I literally fear what i
t will be like w/o any control. It is not unusual for me to see 15+ traffic
targets on my display.
Last week I flew into WHP VFR but reporting 3 miles and haze. N
ot that uncommon. I have flown into WHP well over 500 times and it was very
difficult for me to pick up the runway 3 miles out even though I am quite
familiar with the topography. I am fortunate to have beautiful large PFD/MF
D with traffic but I am painfully aware that most aircraft in the area do n
ot have nearly my experience and knowledge of the area or my selection of e
quipment.
This is just one story of 149. I hope it does not end up a horr
or story.
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
Robin, all that being said.... and said very well... thanks..... but isn't
the savior talking to SoCal approach.- Seems like when I fly into Fullert
on, SoCal is providing the best info.- But I guess with everything going
on at WHP, it probably should be one of the last to be considered for closu
re.- I try not to be in the air in the L.A. area on the weekends... you a
lmost always have 2-5 bogeys on the screen!- Last trip down there I lande
d at Aqua Dulce, but my cousin says WHP is closer... so next time it'll be
WHP... thanks for the heads up for what's going on there.
In the Sacramento are, I sure could see the savings of closing the towers a
t Chico, Mather and Sac Exec.... and here in Texas there are at least 5 tow
ered airports in the DFW area that certainly could be closed.- It seems t
he municipalities are convinced that if they have a tower it'll bring in bu
siness and jets, so they can sell more fuel.... but jets fly in and out of
Lincoln Ca. with no tower.- We flew into Janesville WI and were the only
plane talking to the tower, and also the only plane we saw for an hour eith
er taking off or landing.
--- On Sat, 3/23/13, Robin Marks wrote:
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
om"
Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----------- I was reviewing
the published list of 149 airport tower closures and was really surprised
that I have landed 26 of the 149 on the list. I was further surprised=0A th
at one of my home airports Whiteman (WHP) is slated for tower closure. Now
I totally understand that if some towers MUST be closed than choices need t
o be made and I further understand the NIMBY attitude of sure close some to
wers but not MY towers. That=0A being said let me describe WHP to you and y
ou can decide if this tower closure is a good idea. =0A------
----- WHP is a one runway airport that sits under the Los Angeles
Class B veil for LAX. WHP is 4 miles from Burbank commercial airport and 4
miles from Van Nuys airport=0A both very busy hubs if aviation. Furthermor
e WHP sits near the Newhall pass which is a bit of a funnel for aircraft fe
eding into and out the San Fernando Valley. Additionally WHP hosts 5 of LA'
s news helicopters which park and hover taxi maybe 90 feet from=0A the runw
ay centerline adjacent to the 30 run up area. Whitman is also home for the
CDF (California Fire Department) heavy lift fire helicopters. Wikipedia say
s that Cal Fire is "one of the largest non-military air programs in the cou
ntry that includes 11 UH01H=0A Super Huey helicopters flying out of WHP. I
know because they park and take off right behind my WHP hangar. The launch/
landing area for CDF is "not visible" from the tower and requires extra tow
er control care for transitioning in and out of this area. WHP=0A also host
s a modest amount of student training. Not a great deal of student training
because costs have driven away many who may be interested in learning to f
ly. -Additionally there is a fair amount of police helicopter activity in
the area because WHP is=0A near some major highways 5, 118, 405, 101, 134,
210. Police tent to hover right at TPA for WHP.=0A =0A------
----- So the typical WHP weekend scenario is the student pilot do
ing T & G's while 3 737's are queued up to land Burbank as Golf streams are
rocketing out of VNY with=0A police helicopters hovering over the nearby f
reeways while the news choppers hover taxi back to their landing pad after
their mornings work and small aircraft transition into and out of BUR or VN
Y. All while CDF heavy lift choppers fly in and out of their=0A compound di
rectly under the Left Downwind but blind to what is happening on and around
the active runway. This is all occurring under LAX's Class B vial, under t
he VNY airspace and in a little carve out of the Burbank airspace (SFC/4800
'). All this with mountain=0A peaks covering 180 degrees and within 5 miles
of WHP. I have heard the tower chew out oblivious pilots dozens and dozens
of times for clueless & -illegal transitioning of the airspace. I litera
lly fear what it will be like w/o any control. It is not unusual=0A for me
to see 15+ traffic targets on my display. =0A----------
- Last week I flew into WHP VFR but reporting 3 miles and haze. Not that
uncommon. I have flown into WHP well over 500 times and it was very difficu
lt for me to pick=0A up the runway 3 miles out even though I am quite famil
iar with the topography. I am fortunate to have beautiful large PFD/MFD wit
h traffic but I am painfully aware that most aircraft in the area do not ha
ve nearly my experience and knowledge of the area or=0A my selection of equ
ipment. =0A----------- This is just one story of 149.
I hope it does not end up a horror story.=0A =0A - =0ARobin =0A - =0A
=====================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | Pascal <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
Robin
Fullerton, that has EMS, LA fire helos, flight schools and , a couple of cit
y police helos is also on the list. It is a busy airport under the B airspac
e as well.
Always busy and knowing its going to be a Corona on a larger scale is quite c
oncerning.
Airports under busy airspace like LA are going to suffer. Hopefully scal app
roach will be able to handle flight following because it is going to be need
ed.
On Mar 23, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
> I was reviewing the published list of 149 airport tower closur
es and was really surprised that I have landed 26 of the 149 on the list. I w
as further surprised that one of my home airports Whiteman (WHP) is slated f
or tower closure. Now I totally understand that if some towers MUST be close
d than choices need to be made and I further understand the NIMBY attitude o
f sure close some towers but not MY towers. That being said let me describe W
HP to you and you can decide if this tower closure is a good idea.
> WHP is a one runway airport that sits under the Los Angeles Cl
ass B veil for LAX. WHP is 4 miles from Burbank commercial airport and 4 mil
es from Van Nuys airport both very busy hubs if aviation. Furthermore WHP si
ts near the Newhall pass which is a bit of a funnel for aircraft feeding int
o and out the San Fernando Valley. Additionally WHP hosts 5 of LA's news hel
icopters which park and hover taxi maybe 90 feet from the runway centerline a
djacent to the 30 run up area. Whitman is also home for the CDF (California
Fire Department) heavy lift fire helicopters. Wikipedia says that Cal Fire i
s "one of the largest non-military air programs in the country that includes
11 UH01H Super Huey helicopters flying out of WHP. I know because they park
and take off right behind my WHP hangar. The launch/landing area for CDF is
"not visible" from the tower and requires extra tower control care for tran
sitioning in and out of this area. WHP also hosts a modest amount of student
training. Not a great deal of student training because costs have driven aw
ay many who may be interested in learning to fly. Additionally there is a f
air amount of police helicopter activity in the area because WHP is near som
e major highways 5, 118, 405, 101, 134, 210. Police tent to hover right at T
PA for WHP.
> So the typical WHP weekend scenario is the student pilot doing
T & G's while 3 737's are queued up to land Burbank as Golf streams are roc
keting out of VNY with police helicopters hovering over the nearby freeways w
hile the news choppers hover taxi back to their landing pad after their morn
ings work and small aircraft transition into and out of BUR or VNY. All whil
e CDF heavy lift choppers fly in and out of their compound directly under th
e Left Downwind but blind to what is happening on and around the active runw
ay. This is all occurring under LAX's Class B vial, under the VNY airspace a
nd in a little carve out of the Burbank airspace (SFC/4800'). All this with m
ountain peaks covering 180 degrees and within 5 miles of WHP. I have heard t
he tower chew out oblivious pilots dozens and dozens of times for clueless &
illegal transitioning of the airspace. I literally fear what it will be li
ke w/o any control. It is not unusual for me to see 15+ traffic targets on m
y display.
> Last week I flew into WHP VFR but reporting 3 miles and haze. N
ot that uncommon. I have flown into WHP well over 500 times and it was very d
ifficult for me to pick up the runway 3 miles out even though I am quite fam
iliar with the topography. I am fortunate to have beautiful large PFD/MFD wi
th traffic but I am painfully aware that most aircraft in the area do not ha
ve nearly my experience and knowledge of the area or my selection of equipme
nt.
> This is just one story of 149. I hope it does not end up a hor
ror story.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Main landing gear leg dimension |
| From: | Sam Clark <helosammy(at)gmail.com> |
TWluZSBhcmUgMS43NSBpbmNoZXMgYXQgdGhlIHdpZGVzdCBwb2ludHMuDQpPbiBNYXIgMjEsIDIw
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DQo+IF8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP1JWMTAtTGlz
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PiBfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRt
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PT09PT09DQo+ICoNCj4NCj4NCg=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
SSByZWNhbGwgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHRpbWUgSSBmbGV3IGludG8gRnVsbGVydG9uLiBJIHdhcyBhIHN1
Yi0yMDAgaG91ciBwaWxvdCBvbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgaGF6eSBMQSBkYXlzIHdpdGggYSBHYXJt
aW4gMzk2IGFuZCBJIG5lZWRlZCB0b3dlciBhc3Npc3RhbmNlIGxvY2F0aW5nIHRoZSBhaXJwb3J0
IGRpcmVjdGx5IGluIGZyb250IG9mIG1lLiBJbiB0aGUgc2VhIG9mIGFzcGhhbHQgdGhhdCBpcyB0
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
Yes SoCal ATC is helpful for sure I usually have 4 hand off' s within 20 mi
les of WHP between Magoo, LA Center & SoCal but 8 miles out as one approac
hes WHP, VNY and BUR we are handed off to the tower freq. Anything under 30
00 MSL goes to the tower as SoCal either can't see you or does not have the
time to help or both. I use Flight Following basically 100% of the time in
and out of LA and sometimes SoCal can't take the handoff due to workload.
Add trying to get Flight Following with SoCal on climb out (vs. on the grou
nd with WHP Ground Control) will bogies everywhere further taxes the pilot
and an already thin system.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Don McDonald
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
Robin, all that being said.... and said very well... thanks..... but isn't
the savior talking to SoCal approach. Seems like when I fly into Fullerton
, SoCal is providing the best info. But I guess with everything going on a
t WHP, it probably should be one of the last to be considered for closure.
I try not to be in the air in the L.A. area on the weekends... you almost
always have 2-5 bogeys on the screen! Last trip down there I landed at Aqu
a Dulce, but my cousin says WHP is closer... so next time it'll be WHP... t
hanks for the heads up for what's going on there.
In the Sacramento are, I sure could see the savings of closing the towers a
t Chico, Mather and Sac Exec.... and here in Texas there are at least 5 tow
ered airports in the DFW area that certainly could be closed. It seems the
municipalities are convinced that if they have a tower it'll bring in busi
ness and jets, so they can sell more fuel.... but jets fly in and out of Li
ncoln Ca. with no tower. We flew into Janesville WI and were the only plan
e talking to the tower, and also the only plane we saw for an hour either t
aking off or landing.
--- On Sat, 3/23/13, Robin Marks > wrote:
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com<mailto:robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>>
Subject: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
s.com>, "rv10-list(at)matronics.com" >
Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
I was reviewing the published list of 149 airport tower closure
s and was really surprised that I have landed 26 of the 149 on the list. I
was further surprised that one of my home airports Whiteman (WHP) is slated
for tower closure. Now I totally understand that if some towers MUST be cl
osed than choices need to be made and I further understand the NIMBY attitu
de of sure close some towers but not MY towers. That being said let me desc
ribe WHP to you and you can decide if this tower closure is a good idea.
WHP is a one runway airport that sits under the Los Angeles Cla
ss B veil for LAX. WHP is 4 miles from Burbank commercial airport and 4 mil
es from Van Nuys airport both very busy hubs if aviation. Furthermore WHP s
its near the Newhall pass which is a bit of a funnel for aircraft feeding i
nto and out the San Fernando Valley. Additionally WHP hosts 5 of LA's news
helicopters which park and hover taxi maybe 90 feet from the runway centerl
ine adjacent to the 30 run up area. Whitman is also home for the CDF (Calif
ornia Fire Department) heavy lift fire helicopters. Wikipedia says that Cal
Fire is "one of the largest non-military air programs in the country that
includes 11 UH01H Super Huey helicopters flying out of WHP. I know because
they park and take off right behind my WHP hangar. The launch/landing area
for CDF is "not visible" from the tower and requires extra tower control ca
re for transitioning in and out of this area. WHP also hosts a modest amoun
t of student training. Not a great deal of student training because costs h
ave driven away many who may be interested in learning to fly. Additionall
y there is a fair amount of police helicopter activity in the area because
WHP is near some major highways 5, 118, 405, 101, 134, 210. Police tent to
hover right at TPA for WHP.
So the typical WHP weekend scenario is the student pilot doing
T & G's while 3 737's are queued up to land Burbank as Golf streams are roc
keting out of VNY with police helicopters hovering over the nearby freeways
while the news choppers hover taxi back to their landing pad after their m
ornings work and small aircraft transition into and out of BUR or VNY. All
while CDF heavy lift choppers fly in and out of their compound directly und
er the Left Downwind but blind to what is happening on and around the activ
e runway. This is all occurring under LAX's Class B vial, under the VNY air
space and in a little carve out of the Burbank airspace (SFC/4800'). All th
is with mountain peaks covering 180 degrees and within 5 miles of WHP. I ha
ve heard the tower chew out oblivious pilots dozens and dozens of times for
clueless & illegal transitioning of the airspace. I literally fear what i
t will be like w/o any control. It is not unusual for me to see 15+ traffic
targets on my display.
Last week I flew into WHP VFR but reporting 3 miles and haze. N
ot that uncommon. I have flown into WHP well over 500 times and it was very
difficult for me to pick up the runway 3 miles out even though I am quite
familiar with the topography. I am fortunate to have beautiful large PFD/MF
D with traffic but I am painfully aware that most aircraft in the area do n
ot have nearly my experience and knowledge of the area or my selection of e
quipment.
This is just one story of 149. I hope it does not end up a horr
or story.
Robin
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3c/blockquote%3e%3c/td%3e%3c/tr%3e%3c/table%3e%3cpre%3e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20siz
e=2%20color=000000>
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c/blockquote%3e%3c/td%3e%3c/tr%3e%3c/table%3e%3cpre%3e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20size
=2%20color=000000>
=%3c/font%3e%3c/b%3e%3c/pre%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/blockquote%3e%3c/td
%3e%3c/tr%3e%3c/table%3e%3cpre%3e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20size=2%20color=000000
>
%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/blockquote%3e%3c/td%3e%3c/tr%3e%3c/table%3e%3cpre%3
e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20size=2%20color=000000>
/pre%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/blockquote%3e%3c/td%3e%3c/tr%3e%3c/table%3e%
3cpre%3e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20size=2%20color=000000> http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV10-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | Pascal <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
Right on!
On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
> I recall the first time I flew into Fullerton. I was a sub-200 hour pilot o
n one of those hazy LA days with a Garmin 396 and I needed tower assistance l
ocating the airport directly in front of me. In the sea of asphalt that is t
he LA basin it was near impossible to pick out the airport from the dozens T
arget & Costco parking lots. Oh, and that tall antenna near Fullerton may ge
t some action too. Unlike some rural areas, a mid-air in LA will likely invo
lve people on the ground.
> I don=99t want to seem overly dramatic but plagiarizing the movie ti
tle "There will be blood".
>
> Robin
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 12:29 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; SoCAL-RVlist(at)yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
>
> Robin
> Fullerton, that has EMS, LA fire helos, flight schools and , a couple of c
ity police helos is also on the list. It is a busy airport under the B airsp
ace as well.
> Always busy and knowing its going to be a Corona on a larger scale is quit
e concerning.
> Airports under busy airspace like LA are going to suffer. Hopefully scal a
pproach will be able to handle flight following because it is going to be ne
eded.
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> I was reviewing the published list of 149 airport tower closur
es and was really surprised that I have landed 26 of the 149 on the list. I w
as further surprised that one of my home airports Whiteman (WHP) is slated f
or tower closure. Now I totally understand that if some towers MUST be close
d than choices need to be made and I further understand the NIMBY attitude o
f sure close some towers but not MY towers. That being said let me describe W
HP to you and you can decide if this tower closure is a good idea.
> WHP is a one runway airport that sits under the Los Angeles Cl
ass B veil for LAX. WHP is 4 miles from Burbank commercial airport and 4 mil
es from Van Nuys airport both very busy hubs if aviation. Furthermore WHP si
ts near the Newhall pass which is a bit of a funnel for aircraft feeding int
o and out the San Fernando Valley. Additionally WHP hosts 5 of LA's news hel
icopters which park and hover taxi maybe 90 feet from the runway centerline a
djacent to the 30 run up area. Whitman is also home for the CDF (California
Fire Department) heavy lift fire helicopters. Wikipedia says that Cal Fire i
s "one of the largest non-military air programs in the country that includes
11 UH01H Super Huey helicopters flying out of WHP. I know because they park
and take off right behind my WHP hangar. The launch/landing area for CDF is
"not visible" from the tower and requires extra tower control care for tran
sitioning in and out of this area. WHP also hosts a modest amount of student
training. Not a great deal of student training because costs have driven aw
ay many who may be interested in learning to fly. Additionally there is a f
air amount of police helicopter activity in the area because WHP is near som
e major highways 5, 118, 405, 101, 134, 210. Police tent to hover right at T
PA for WHP.
> So the typical WHP weekend scenario is the student pilot doing
T & G's while 3 737's are queued up to land Burbank as Golf streams are roc
keting out of VNY with police helicopters hovering over the nearby freeways w
hile the news choppers hover taxi back to their landing pad after their morn
ings work and small aircraft transition into and out of BUR or VNY. All whil
e CDF heavy lift choppers fly in and out of their compound directly under th
e Left Downwind but blind to what is happening on and around the active runw
ay. This is all occurring under LAX's Class B vial, under the VNY airspace a
nd in a little carve out of the Burbank airspace (SFC/4800'). All this with m
ountain peaks covering 180 degrees and within 5 miles of WHP. I have heard t
he tower chew out oblivious pilots dozens and dozens of times for clueless &
illegal transitioning of the airspace. I literally fear what it will be li
ke w/o any control. It is not unusual for me to see 15+ traffic targets on m
y display.
> Last week I flew into WHP VFR but reporting 3 miles and haze. N
ot that uncommon. I have flown into WHP well over 500 times and it was very d
ifficult for me to pick up the runway 3 miles out even though I am quite fam
iliar with the topography. I am fortunate to have beautiful large PFD/MFD wi
th traffic but I am painfully aware that most aircraft in the area do not ha
ve nearly my experience and knowledge of the area or my selection of equipme
nt.
> This is just one story of 149. I hope it does not end up a hor
ror story.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> )=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{l=EF=BD7=EF=BDr=EF=BDh=EF=BDM4=EF
=BDM=1Fi=C7=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
.=EF=BD'=EF=BDN=17=EF=BDW]=0B=EF=BD=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-
=15=E6=AD=BA=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF
=BD=EF=BD,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD
=D8=9E=EF=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF
=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BDC=EF=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z
=EF=BDP=10>=1A-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk
=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=15
u=D0=B8=EF=BD=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=1C=EF=BDo=EF=BDj=EF=BDj
=EF=BD+E]t.+-=EF=BDM=13=EF=BD $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
j[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=17=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BDj=1A
=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD*.=EF=BD=07=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD1=EF=BDm=0E=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D
=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF
=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD
*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BD
w/=EF=BDi
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat adjusters |
| From: | "Dorfie" <jdorfling(at)msn.com> |
I am also interested in a set.
Johan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396891#396891
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat adjusters |
| From: | Tim Farrell <tim(at)AirCraftersLLC.com> |
We should have a bunch of sets available by the end of next week. I'll post on
this thread when they are ready. Thanks,
Tim
Aircrafters
831-722-9141
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 23, 2013, at 10:21 PM, "Dorfie" wrote:
>
> I am also interested in a set.
> Johan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396891#396891
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | "Stephen Blank,DDS" <sblankdds(at)gmail.com> |
They need to get a work slow down or close the airports in DC to get
congress off its collective rear ends and end the ridiculous chopping of
useful government services that we are paying for in income taxes and fuel
taxes. The FAA should be fully funded and able to run in the black from the
funds it collects.
This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport KSUA is closing
too. Real people are being laid off, will lose their homes, and add to
those getting paid unemployment to not work. They won't find a job In
another tower. Stupid.
My friend works for the army corps of engineers and they are getting
cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% forced pay cut as if the
budget issue is their fault? It will kill his family budget, obligstions
he made while working, so congress can play games. This is by politicsl
choice. Congress has no downside to continue on this path unless we ALL act
now.
Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an acceptable way to
fix the budget, real people are being hurt, and lives will be lost over LA.
We can probably live without a tower here, with mostly an inconvenience to
the weekend jet set that arrive in some top dollar jets, IFR hand off from
Palm Beach to play golf. But they continue to get a tax cut?? And the guy
in the tower loses his job? Pick up your phone and let your congressman
know you are angry or they will do nothing and real people will suffer.
Stephen Blank, DDS
Port Saint Lucie, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
I think the problem lies with tghe President .... who predicted a
disaster if sequestration happened ..... and the disaster never came.
So he directs the agencies to cut in the most visible ways. He doesn't
care what happens to the unemployment figures anymore. He'd rather play
golf. I, for one, feel the Gov't (and all the agencies) is bloated and
needs to be cut. Not all at once, mind you, but through attrition.
That doesn't ever seem to happen though and the elephant in the room
keeps getting bigger and bigger. I feel the pain for the people in the
towers that get laid off, just as I feel for those that lost jobs in the
civil sector. It ain't pretty out there so fly safely and we'll get
past this. Pilots are a pretty flexible bunch.
Laying off IFR controllers would be far more devastating than closing
towers IMHO.
Linn
On 3/24/2013 8:13 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>
> They need to get a work slow down or close the airports in DC to get
> congress off its collective rear ends and end the ridiculous chopping
> of useful government services that we are paying for in income taxes
> and fuel taxes. The FAA should be fully funded and able to run in the
> black from the funds it collects.
> This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport KSUA is
> closing too. Real people are being laid off, will lose their homes,
> and add to those getting paid unemployment to not work. They won't
> find a job In another tower. Stupid.
> My friend works for the army corps of engineers and they are
> getting cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% forced pay cut as
> if the budget issue is their fault? It will kill his family budget,
> obligstions he made while working, so congress can play games. This is
> by politicsl choice. Congress has no downside to continue on this path
> unless we ALL act now.
> Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an acceptable
> way to fix the budget, real people are being hurt, and lives will be
> lost over LA. We can probably live without a tower here, with mostly
> an inconvenience to the weekend jet set that arrive in some top dollar
> jets, IFR hand off from Palm Beach to play golf. But they continue to
> get a tax cut?? And the guy in the tower loses his job? Pick up your
> phone and let your congressman know you are angry or they will do
> nothing and real people will suffer.
>
> Stephen Blank, DDS
> Port Saint Lucie, FL
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | "Stephen Blank,DDS" <sblankdds(at)gmail.com> |
The president in America does not write legislation, congress does. The
president is obligated to follow the budgetary rules they created. Only
congress can fix this. It helps no one for you to blast your opinion that
you think the president would rather play golf and doesnt care about the
unemployed. That is just complaining without results.
Call your congressman and let then know you want results or their pay
should be cut, not working government employees. This does not have to be a
dem vs rep fight. We all want effective laws and congressman that work for
the common good. There is a ton of common ground, many things could be
passed if they stop playing political games and pandering to the extremes
of either party.
Call your congressman, that is how it works. Google your state name
(Florida us congressman, for example) and look up some phone numbers. They
are always nice when I call, and I am seldomly agreeing with them. If no
one calls they think they are doing a great job. They have no clue the
country is pissed off with inaction.
FYI did you know the DOD is the largest consumer of oil world wide? Is
our military big enough yet?
Stephen Blank, DDS
On Mar 24, 2013 8:43 AM, "Linn" wrote:
> I think the problem lies with tghe President .... who predicted a
> disaster if sequestration happened ..... and the disaster never came. So
> he directs the agencies to cut in the most visible ways. He doesn't care
> what happens to the unemployment figures anymore. He'd rather play golf.
> I, for one, feel the Gov't (and all the agencies) is bloated and needs to
> be cut. Not all at once, mind you, but through attrition. That doesn't
> ever seem to happen though and the elephant in the room keeps getting
> bigger and bigger. I feel the pain for the people in the towers that get
> laid off, just as I feel for those that lost jobs in the civil sector. It
> ain't pretty out there so fly safely and we'll get past this. Pilots are a
> pretty flexible bunch.
> Laying off IFR controllers would be far more devastating than closing
> towers IMHO.
> Linn
>
>
> On 3/24/2013 8:13 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>
> They need to get a work slow down or close the airports in DC to get
> congress off its collective rear ends and end the ridiculous chopping of
> useful government services that we are paying for in income taxes and fuel
> taxes. The FAA should be fully funded and able to run in the black from the
> funds it collects.
> This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport KSUA is closing
> too. Real people are being laid off, will lose their homes, and add to
> those getting paid unemployment to not work. They won't find a job In
> another tower. Stupid.
> My friend works for the army corps of engineers and they are getting
> cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% forced pay cut as if the
> budget issue is their fault? It will kill his family budget, obligstions
> he made while working, so congress can play games. This is by politicsl
> choice. Congress has no downside to continue on this path unless we ALL act
> now.
> Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an acceptable way to
> fix the budget, real people are being hurt, and lives will be lost over LA.
> We can probably live without a tower here, with mostly an inconvenience to
> the weekend jet set that arrive in some top dollar jets, IFR hand off from
> Palm Beach to play golf. But they continue to get a tax cut?? And the guy
> in the tower loses his job? Pick up your phone and let your congressman
> know you are angry or they will do nothing and real people will suffer.
>
> Stephen Blank, DDS
> Port Saint Lucie, FL
>
> *
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 03/23/13
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
Like you I call and write, and I encourage others to do the same. True,
the President doesn't write legislation, but he surely directs policy
and signs legislation that he likes. My country is in deep trouble and
I see no progress in fixing that. I will survive (for a long time,
hopefully) but I fear for my children and my grandkids future. There's
no doubt the basic problems lie in the legislators that cater to their
constituents because their jobs are on the line every four years. The
voters spoke, and I think we will suffer for it. As for the golf ....
it's just what I see.
Linn ..... last call.
On 3/24/2013 9:08 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>
> The president in America does not write legislation, congress does.
> The president is obligated to follow the budgetary rules they created.
> Only congress can fix this. It helps no one for you to blast your
> opinion that you think the president would rather play golf and doesnt
> care about the unemployed. That is just complaining without results.
> Call your congressman and let then know you want results or their
> pay should be cut, not working government employees. This does not
> have to be a dem vs rep fight. We all want effective laws and
> congressman that work for the common good. There is a ton of common
> ground, many things could be passed if they stop playing political
> games and pandering to the extremes of either party.
> Call your congressman, that is how it works. Google your state
> name (Florida us congressman, for example) and look up some phone
> numbers. They are always nice when I call, and I am seldomly agreeing
> with them. If no one calls they think they are doing a great job. They
> have no clue the country is pissed off with inaction.
> FYI did you know the DOD is the largest consumer of oil world wide?
> Is our military big enough yet?
>
> Stephen Blank, DDS
>
> On Mar 24, 2013 8:43 AM, "Linn" > wrote:
>
> I think the problem lies with tghe President .... who predicted a
> disaster if sequestration happened ..... and the disaster never
> came. So he directs the agencies to cut in the most visible
> ways. He doesn't care what happens to the unemployment figures
> anymore. He'd rather play golf. I, for one, feel the Gov't (and
> all the agencies) is bloated and needs to be cut. Not all at
> once, mind you, but through attrition. That doesn't ever seem to
> happen though and the elephant in the room keeps getting bigger
> and bigger. I feel the pain for the people in the towers that get
> laid off, just as I feel for those that lost jobs in the civil
> sector. It ain't pretty out there so fly safely and we'll get
> past this. Pilots are a pretty flexible bunch.
> Laying off IFR controllers would be far more devastating than
> closing towers IMHO.
> Linn
>
>
> On 3/24/2013 8:13 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>>
>> They need to get a work slow down or close the airports in DC to
>> get congress off its collective rear ends and end the ridiculous
>> chopping of useful government services that we are paying for in
>> income taxes and fuel taxes. The FAA should be fully funded and
>> able to run in the black from the funds it collects.
>> This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport KSUA
>> is closing too. Real people are being laid off, will lose their
>> homes, and add to those getting paid unemployment to not work.
>> They won't find a job In another tower. Stupid.
>> My friend works for the army corps of engineers and they are
>> getting cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% forced pay
>> cut as if the budget issue is their fault? It will kill his
>> family budget, obligstions he made while working, so congress can
>> play games. This is by politicsl choice. Congress has no downside
>> to continue on this path unless we ALL act now.
>> Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an
>> acceptable way to fix the budget, real people are being hurt, and
>> lives will be lost over LA. We can probably live without a tower
>> here, with mostly an inconvenience to the weekend jet set that
>> arrive in some top dollar jets, IFR hand off from Palm Beach to
>> play golf. But they continue to get a tax cut?? And the guy in
>> the tower loses his job? Pick up your phone and let your
>> congressman know you are angry or they will do nothing and real
>> people will suffer.
>>
>> Stephen Blank, DDS
>> Port Saint Lucie, FL
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> 03/23/13
>>
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
Ok, enough politics.... but the sequestration was the presidents idea.
--- On Sun, 3/24/13, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
From: Stephen Blank,DDS <sblankdds(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 8:08 AM
The president in America does not write legislation, congress does. The pre
sident is obligated to follow the budgetary rules they created. Only congre
ss can fix this. It helps no one for you to blast your opinion that you thi
nk the president would rather play golf and doesnt care about the unemploye
d. That is just complaining without results.
=0A=0A--- Call your congressman and let then know you want results or
their pay should be cut, not working government employees. This does not h
ave to be a dem vs rep fight. We all want effective laws and congressman th
at work for the common good. There is a ton of common ground, many things c
ould be passed if they stop playing political games and pandering to the ex
tremes of either party.
=0A=0A-- Call your congressman, that is how it works. Google your state
name- (Florida us congressman, for example) and look up some phone numbe
rs. They are always nice when I call, and I am seldomly agreeing with them.
If no one calls they think they are doing a great job. They have no clue t
he country is pissed off with inaction.
=0A=0A-- FYI did you know the DOD is the largest consumer of oil world
wide? Is our military big enough yet?=0AStephen Blank, DDS=0AOn Mar 24, 201
3 8:43 AM, "Linn" wrote:
=0A=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A I think the problem lies with tghe=0A
President .... who predicted a disaster if sequestration happened=0A .
.... and the disaster never came.- So he directs the agencies to=0A
cut in the most visible ways.- He doesn't care what happens to the=0A
unemployment figures anymore.- He'd rather play golf.- I, for one,=0A
feel the Gov't (and all the agencies) is bloated and needs to be=0A
cut.- Not all at once, mind you, but through attrition.- That=0A
doesn't ever seem to happen though and the elephant in the room=0A
keeps getting bigger and bigger.- I feel the pain for the people=0A
in the towers that get laid off, just as I feel for those that=0A lost
jobs in the civil sector.- It ain't pretty out there so fly=0A safe
ly and we'll get past this.- Pilots are a pretty flexible=0A bunch.
=0A Laying off IFR controllers would be far more devastating than=0A
closing towers IMHO.
=0A Linn
=0A
=0A
=0A On 3/24/2013 8:13 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
=0A =0A =0A They need to get a work slow down or close the=0A
airports in DC to get congress off its collective rear ends and=0A
end the ridiculous chopping of useful government services that=0A
we are paying for in income taxes and fuel taxes. The FAA should=0A
be fully funded and able to run in the black from the funds it=0A
collects.
=0A --- This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport
KSUA=0A is closing too.- Real people are being laid off, will los
e their=0A homes, and add to those getting paid unemployment to not
work.=0A They won't find a job In another tower. Stupid.
=0A ---- My friend works for the army corps of engineers and
they=0A are getting cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% fo
rced=0A pay cut as if the budget issue is their fault?- It will ki
ll his=0A family budget, obligstions he made while working, so congr
ess=0A can play games. This is by politicsl choice. Congress has no
=0A downside to continue on this path unless we ALL act now.
=0A ---- Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an
=0A acceptable way to fix the budget, real people are being hurt,=0A
and lives will be lost over LA. We can probably live without a=0A
tower here, with mostly an inconvenience to the weekend jet set=0A
that arrive in some top dollar jets, IFR hand off from Palm=0A
Beach to play golf. But they continue to get a tax cut??- And=0A t
he guy in the tower loses his job? Pick up your phone and let=0A you
r congressman know you are angry or they will do nothing and=0A real
people will suffer.=0A Stephen Blank, DDS
=0A Port Saint Lucie, FL=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A No virus=0A
found in this message.
=0A Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
=0A 03/23/13=0A =0A
=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-
List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib
=======================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
FYI did you know the DOD is the largest consumer of oil world wide? Is
our military big enough yet?
It may be large enough, and it can be more efficient. But that is not the
sequestration question. The question is who is responsible for the mess we
are in today. I don't think you should waste your time calling your
congress person...call you senators, they are the ones not taking action.
The house has passed many bills..the senate just will not take them up.
But to get back to flying...flew from Idaho Falls Id to Ogden Utah
yesterday. The guys up in Idaho Falls were all upset about losing their
tower and worried that it really will affect their business. Here at Ogden
it is a mixed bag about losing the tower..of the people I have talked to it
is about 50/50. I am on the I don't care list.I care about the people
losing their job, but I don't care about not having a tower. Our bigger
problem at Ogden is that we now have commercial service (2 days a week) and
the TSA has come in and I would say with the City's overwhelming cooperation
and made life at the airport a pain, to say the least. The airport is now
divided in half, fly in to the local dinner (the Auger Inn), is almost
impossible and doing things like Young Eagle rally's are almost impossible.
Out local EAA chapter has lost it meeting location to boot.
Well I will stop whining and get back to work so I can get to the airport
later today to work on my annual condition inspect and yearly modes...this
year..replacing BMA Lite with a third GRT screen, handles for the seats, new
headset hangers, putting on door straps, and adding piper battery charging
connector.
Rene'
N423CF
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Blank,DDS
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
The president in America does not write legislation, congress does. The
president is obligated to follow the budgetary rules they created. Only
congress can fix this. It helps no one for you to blast your opinion that
you think the president would rather play golf and doesnt care about the
unemployed. That is just complaining without results.
Call your congressman and let then know you want results or their pay
should be cut, not working government employees. This does not have to be a
dem vs rep fight. We all want effective laws and congressman that work for
the common good. There is a ton of common ground, many things could be
passed if they stop playing political games and pandering to the extremes of
either party.
Call your congressman, that is how it works. Google your state name
(Florida us congressman, for example) and look up some phone numbers. They
are always nice when I call, and I am seldomly agreeing with them. If no one
calls they think they are doing a great job. They have no clue the country
is pissed off with inaction.
FYI did you know the DOD is the largest consumer of oil world wide? Is
our military big enough yet?
Stephen Blank, DDS
On Mar 24, 2013 8:43 AM, "Linn" wrote:
I think the problem lies with tghe President .... who predicted a disaster
if sequestration happened ..... and the disaster never came. So he directs
the agencies to cut in the most visible ways. He doesn't care what happens
to the unemployment figures anymore. He'd rather play golf. I, for one,
feel the Gov't (and all the agencies) is bloated and needs to be cut. Not
all at once, mind you, but through attrition. That doesn't ever seem to
happen though and the elephant in the room keeps getting bigger and bigger.
I feel the pain for the people in the towers that get laid off, just as I
feel for those that lost jobs in the civil sector. It ain't pretty out
there so fly safely and we'll get past this. Pilots are a pretty flexible
bunch.
Laying off IFR controllers would be far more devastating than closing towers
IMHO.
Linn
On 3/24/2013 8:13 AM, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
They need to get a work slow down or close the airports in DC to get
congress off its collective rear ends and end the ridiculous chopping of
useful government services that we are paying for in income taxes and fuel
taxes. The FAA should be fully funded and able to run in the black from the
funds it collects.
This entire closure thing is congress made. My airport KSUA is closing
too. Real people are being laid off, will lose their homes, and add to
those getting paid unemployment to not work. They won't find a job In
another tower. Stupid.
My friend works for the army corps of engineers and they are getting
cut one day a week startinh April 1st, a 20% forced pay cut as if the budget
issue is their fault? It will kill his family budget, obligstions he made
while working, so congress can play games. This is by politicsl choice.
Congress has no downside to continue on this path unless we ALL act now.
Pick up your phone and tell congress this is NOT an acceptable way to
fix the budget, real people are being hurt, and lives will be lost over LA.
We can probably live without a tower here, with mostly an inconvenience to
the weekend jet set that arrive in some top dollar jets, IFR hand off from
Palm Beach to play golf. But they continue to get a tax cut?? And the guy
in the tower loses his job? Pick up your phone and let your congressman know
you are angry or they will do nothing and real people will suffer.
Stephen Blank, DDS
Port Saint Lucie, FL
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
03/23/13
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> |
WHAT SEQUESTER? FEDERAL JOBS WEBSITE LISTS THOUSANDS OF OPENINGS! I am relocating
to Dayton to take the job as director for the Air Force History and Museums
Policies and Programs. All that I need to do is issue memos promoting gay marriage,
muslim rights, legalization of pot, and watch porn on my computer all
day!
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/23/USA-Jobs-postings-thousands
For all the talk about the dramatic spending cuts to hit the federal government
under the bipartisan sequestration, the federal government isnt exactly tightening
its belt. According to USAJobs.gov, the job posting site for the feds, approximately
2,200 jobs listings became available during one week in March. As
Eileen Ambrose reports, Add in new postings open only to current or former federal
workers, including those laid off, and the number of new openings jumps
to more than 4,600.
--------
See you OSH '13
Q/B - flying 3 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396903#396903
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
It doesn't matter WHOSE idea it was. Might as well have been Donald Ducks,
or Farmer McDonald. Both houses of Congress passed it, the President
signed, and both Houses of Congress failed to carryout the mandates in the
bill, which left us stuck with the stupidquester.
Doesn't matter what party, who did what, it took the whole "team" to fail.
It took the "team" unwillingness to pay the bills for the spending "they"
approved.
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Don McDonald wrote:
> Ok, enough politics.... but the sequestration was the presidents idea.
> * *
>
> **
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | "Stephen Blank,DDS" <sblankdds(at)gmail.com> |
To keep us flying we need to understand just a bit on decision making.
The budget starts in the House, not the senate. The problem is the house
refusing to get creative and pass anything the senate or president would
sign. It is fact, like it or not, that the democrats control the senate
and presidency. It is not the president or Senate that have to change to
appease the house. The house chooses to obstruct for political gains and
they don't want to do anything that would make the current president look
good. We need to ask them to work for the good of the nation and to get
past their own political agendas. Not demo or rep, but good decisions for
everyone.
I agree the the TSA is a government entity that needs to be cut or
trimmed. Ask your congressman to do just that, it was formed overnight into
a huge economic drain and intrudes on our freedom to fly. It is second in
size only to the department of defense, and the need for a separate
department escapes me.
Stephen Blank, DDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Airport Tower Closures |
Hey mister DDS.... what about the first FUC----- two years of this assholes
term when they had control of both the Senate and the House... still no da
mn budget.- Why do you think Bush's last 2 years were so bad!- They con
trolled both houses then tooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What could you possibly add to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pretty hard to blame that on the Republicans.
Gee come to think of it, California, which I left 3 years ago, after 59 yea
rs, now has a Democratic super majority.- According to you they should be
doing just splendid!-- NOT!
DDR, SAS, PBW , just kidding about the initials,,,, I'm just a plain ole ci
tizen...don't see the need to flash credentials around.
Don McDonald
--- On Sun, 3/24/13, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
From: Stephen Blank,DDS <sblankdds(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
--- To keep us flying we need to understand just a bit on decision ma
king. The budget starts in the House, not the senate. The problem is the ho
use refusing to get creative and pass anything the senate or president woul
d sign. It is- fact, like it or not, that the democrats control the senat
e and presidency. It is not the president or Senate that have to change to
appease the house. The house chooses to obstruct for political gains and th
ey don't want to do anything that would make the current president look goo
d. We need to ask them to work for the good of the nation and to get past t
heir own political agendas. Not demo or rep, but good decisions for everyon
e.
=0A=0A---I agree the the TSA is a government entity that needs to be
cut or trimmed. Ask your congressman to do just that, it was formed overnig
ht into a huge economic drain and intrudes on our freedom to fly. It is sec
ond in size only to the department of defense, and the need for a separate
==========0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Don,
There is no constitutional requirement for a budget, period. If you
did a quick word search in the constitution, you won't find the word
budget. Who gives a damn? It is appropriations bills that matter,
which the House refuses to pass any that are even close to acceptable.
How about just finding a way to do something instead of being
roadblocks?
Now. Back to building RVs and to hell with politicians of all stripes.
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Don McDonald
wrote:
>
> Hey mister DDS.... what about the first FUC----- two years of this assholes term
when they had control of both the Senate and the House... still no damn budget.
Why do you think Bush's last 2 years were so bad! They controlled both
houses then tooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> What could you possibly add to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Pretty hard to blame that on the Republicans.
>
> Gee come to think of it, California, which I left 3 years ago, after 59 years,
now has a Democratic super majority. According to you they should be doing
just splendid! NOT!
>
> DDR, SAS, PBW , just kidding about the initials,,,, I'm just a plain ole citizen...don't
see the need to flash credentials around.
>
> Don McDonald
>
>
> --- On Sun, 3/24/13, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>
>
> From: Stephen Blank,DDS <sblankdds(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
> To: "RV10 List"
> Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
>
> To keep us flying we need to understand just a bit on decision making. The
budget starts in the House, not the senate. The problem is the house refusing
to get creative and pass anything the senate or president would sign. It is
fact, like it or not, that the democrats control the senate and presidency. It
is not the president or Senate that have to change to appease the house. The
house chooses to obstruct for political gains and they don't want to do anything
that would make the current president look good. We need to ask them to work
for the good of the nation and to get past their own political agendas. Not
demo or rep, but good decisions for everyone.
> I agree the the TSA is a government entity that needs to be cut or trimmed.
Ask your congressman to do just that, it was formed overnight into a huge economic
drain and intrudes on our freedom to fly. It is second in size only to
the department of defense, and the need for a separate department escapes me.
>
> Stephen Blank, DDS
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?ank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contri==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
My last two cents... I- find it funny that the Dems say that the Rep's ar
e restricting a certain process... then when it's pointed out that when Dem
s had complete control, and still didn't get anything done, then the statem
ent changes to It's not required.- I think they call that bait and switch
.
Kelly, we can still be friends.... but my planes been done for 3 years....
get back to building before 100LL gets to $10 gal.
--- On Sun, 3/24/13, Kelly McMullen wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 9:59 PM
Hey Don,
There is no constitutional requirement for a budget, period. If you
did a quick word search in the constitution, you won't find the word
budget. Who gives a damn? It is appropriations bills that matter,
which the House refuses to pass any that are even close to acceptable.
How about just finding a way to do something instead of being
roadblocks?
Now. Back to building RVs and to hell with politicians of all stripes.
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Don McDonald
wrote:
>
> Hey mister DDS.... what about the first FUC----- two years of this asshol
es term when they had control of both the Senate and the House... still no
damn budget.- Why do you think Bush's last 2 years were so bad!- They c
ontrolled both houses then tooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> What could you possibly add to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Pretty hard to blame that on the Republicans.
>
> Gee come to think of it, California, which I left 3 years ago, after 59 y
ears, now has a Democratic super majority.- According to you they should
be doing just splendid!---NOT!
>
> DDR, SAS, PBW , just kidding about the initials,,,, I'm just a plain ole
citizen...don't see the need to flash credentials around.
>
> Don McDonald
>
>
> --- On Sun, 3/24/13, Stephen Blank,DDS wrote:
>
>
> From: Stephen Blank,DDS <sblankdds(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
> To: "RV10 List"
> Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
>
>- ---To keep us flying we need to understand just a bit on decisio
n making. The budget starts in the House, not the senate. The problem is th
e house refusing to get creative and pass anything the senate or president
would sign. It is- fact, like it or not, that the democrats control the s
enate and presidency. It is not the president or Senate that have to change
to appease the house. The house chooses to obstruct for political gains an
d they don't want to do anything that would make the current president look
good. We need to ask them to work for the good of the nation and to get pa
st their own political agendas. Not demo or rep, but good decisions for eve
ryone.
>- - I agree the the TSA is a government entity that needs to be cut or
trimmed. Ask your congressman to do just that, it was formed overnight int
o a huge economic drain and intrudes on our freedom to fly. It is second in
size only to the department of defense, and the need for a separate depart
ment escapes me.
>
> Stephen Blank, DDS
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?ank" href="http://forums.matronics.c
om">http://forums.matronics.com rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="
http://www.matronics.com/contri==
>
>
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
At no time did either party have full control. It would take more than
60 votes in Senate to be even close, since a single obstinate Senator
can hold up most anything. We also do not have a system where leaders
can tell a Congressman how to vote. Sure they can be strong armed,
lobbied, attacked in next election, but none of the leaders, majority
nor minority can consistently deliver 100% of their caucus. Look at all
the trouble Boehner has had, making deals that his caucus refuses to
support, forcing him to back out of deals. Trying to control Congress is
like trying to herd a cat.
I know of slow build RV-10 built in 12 months, by solo builder without
assist. Not what I would want, but suits the owner. We all make our own
choices and have our own limitations on how fast we can build, and it
has nothing to do with politicians.
On 3/24/2013 8:24 PM, Don McDonald wrote:
> My last two cents... I find it funny that the Dems say that the Rep's
> are restricting a certain process... then when it's pointed out that
> when Dems had complete control, and still didn't get anything done,
> then the statement changes to It's not required. I think they call
> that bait and switch.
> Kelly, we can still be friends.... but my planes been done for 3
> years.... get back to building before 100LL gets to $10 gal.
>
> --- On *Sun, 3/24/13, Kelly McMullen //* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Airport Tower Closures
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 9:59 PM
>
> >
>
> Hey Don,
> There is no constitutional requirement for a budget, period. If you
> did a quick word search in the constitution, you won't find the word
> budget. Who gives a damn? It is appropriations bills that matter,
> which the House refuses to pass any that are even close to acceptable.
> How about just finding a way to do something instead of being
> roadblocks?
> Now. Back to building RVs and to hell with politicians of all stripes.
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airport Tower Closures |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
CUT OUT THE POLITICAL CRAP!!!
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396973#396973
________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.aminatex.com/includes/surprise.php?pmozfvmrt711ajdh
--------
Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackas
ses. -- H.L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | re:--THIS IS A BUG--- DO NOT OPEN |
| From: | "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes(at)qnsi.net> |
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dsyvert(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: re:
--------
Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by
Jackasses. -- H.L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | "No Title" is Spam |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
Get rid of it Matt!
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397045#397045
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
This winter I figured out a way to fix 2 Heat related issues that have been
with me since day one. 1. My # 6 cylinder ran 20-30 degrees hotter than any
of the other. On hot (AZ) summer day's, I had to pay close attention to
keep the Cyl temp under 420-430 deg on climbs. 2. my oil temps would also
exceed 220 on long climbs to altitude and during the middle of summer if
the OAT didn't get below 70F degs, the Oil Temp would stay above 200. Even
on 'cooler days' it would rarely go below 196.
So I fabricated a fiberglass intake that replaces to the slot cover in the
lower cowl in front of the nose gear. and plumbed it to the Oil Cooler (in
the same std location). I plugged the old 4" opening behind the # 6 cyl.
The results after a couple of flights look encouraging. The #6 cyl, is now
in line with the other cyls. (12 deg spread across all cyls). Last weekon a
trip from DVT to SLC, in cruise the oil temp never got above 165 degrees.
the OAT @ 10-11k was 0 to -4 C.
So I'm a bit worried that the oil temps are now too cool. I've been of the
opinion that the ideal oil temp is aprox 180 deg in order to cook off any
moisture in the oil. So I'm wondering if I need to put a valve in-line
somewhere to help regulate the oil temps. Any feedback is appreciated.
Deems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com> |
I believe nonstop aviation makes the oil cooler butterfly valves. I have one
and it works great. Very easy to adjust by using a control knob with detent
s. Vans sells them. Glad to hear you fixed the issue. My #5 is the hottest.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2013, at 22:23, Deems Davis wrote:
> This winter I figured out a way to fix 2 Heat related issues that have bee
n with me since day one. 1. My # 6 cylinder ran 20-30 degrees hotter than an
y of the other. On hot (AZ) summer day's, I had to pay close attention to ke
ep the Cyl temp under 420-430 deg on climbs. 2. my oil temps would also exce
ed 220 on long climbs to altitude and during the middle of summer if the OAT
didn't get below 70F degs, the Oil Temp would stay above 200. Even on 'cool
er days' it would rarely go below 196.
> So I fabricated a fiberglass intake that replaces to the slot cover in the
lower cowl in front of the nose gear. and plumbed it to the Oil Cooler (in t
he same std location). I plugged the old 4" opening behind the # 6 cyl. The r
esults after a couple of flights look encouraging. The #6 cyl, is now in lin
e with the other cyls. (12 deg spread across all cyls). Last weekon a trip f
rom DVT to SLC, in cruise the oil temp never got above 165 degrees. the OAT @
10-11k was 0 to -4 C.
> So I'm a bit worried that the oil temps are now too cool. I've been of the
opinion that the ideal oil temp is aprox 180 deg in order to cook off any m
oisture in the oil. So I'm wondering if I need to put a valve in-line somewh
ere to help regulate the oil temps. Any feedback is appreciated.
>
> Deems
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
Great news Deems. Another option for oil cooler control is to place a hinge
d flap on the back side of the oil cooler. I have one with my new cowl set
up that closes off up to 60% of the oil cooler and has allowed me to gain m
uch control. Only 60% due to motor mount conflict (yours may be different)
but it seems to be all the control I need. I have also had the butterfly v
ersion on other aircraft and generally prefer that solution mostly due to n
o additional room is required FWF. But this hinged flap was a simple soluti
on that worked with my current control cable set up and functions well. If
I lived in UT I would opt for 100% closure (and a good realtor) :-)
Robin
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 25, 2013, at 9:50 PM, "Seano" > wrote:
I believe nonstop aviation makes the oil cooler butterfly valves. I have on
e and it works great. Very easy to adjust by using a control knob with dete
nts. Vans sells them. Glad to hear you fixed the issue. My #5 is the hottes
t.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2013, at 22:23, Deems Davis > wrote:
This winter I figured out a way to fix 2 Heat related issues that have been
with me since day one. 1. My # 6 cylinder ran 20-30 degrees hotter than an
y of the other. On hot (AZ) summer day's, I had to pay close attention to k
eep the Cyl temp under 420-430 deg on climbs. 2. my oil temps would also ex
ceed 220 on long climbs to altitude and during the middle of summer if the
OAT didn't get below 70F degs, the Oil Temp would stay above 200. Even on '
cooler days' it would rarely go below 196.
So I fabricated a fiberglass intake that replaces to the slot cover in the
lower cowl in front of the nose gear. and plumbed it to the Oil Cooler (in
the same std location). I plugged the old 4" opening behind the # 6 cyl. Th
e results after a couple of flights look encouraging. The #6 cyl, is now in
line with the other cyls. (12 deg spread across all cyls). Last weekon a t
rip from DVT to SLC, in cruise the oil temp never got above 165 degrees. th
e OAT @ 10-11k was 0 to -4 C.
So I'm a bit worried that the oil temps are now too cool. I've been of the
opinion that the ideal oil temp is aprox 180 deg in order to cook off any m
oisture in the oil. So I'm wondering if I need to put a valve in-line somew
here to help regulate the oil temps. Any feedback is appreciated.
Deems
=========
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator
?RV10-List>
=========
cs.com<http://cs.com>
=========
matronics.com/contribution<http://matronics.com/contribution>
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Sounds good Deems. I think you are fine on oil temp. Remember that the
temp sensor is at the return line from the oil cooler, and temps in
the sump can run as much as 50 degrees hotter.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Deems Davis wrote:
> This winter I figured out a way to fix 2 Heat related issues that have been
> with me since day one. 1. My # 6 cylinder ran 20-30 degrees hotter than any
> of the other. On hot (AZ) summer day's, I had to pay close attention to keep
> the Cyl temp under 420-430 deg on climbs. 2. my oil temps would also exceed
> 220 on long climbs to altitude and during the middle of summer if the OAT
> didn't get below 70F degs, the Oil Temp would stay above 200. Even on
> 'cooler days' it would rarely go below 196.
> So I fabricated a fiberglass intake that replaces to the slot cover in the
> lower cowl in front of the nose gear. and plumbed it to the Oil Cooler (in
> the same std location). I plugged the old 4" opening behind the # 6 cyl. The
> results after a couple of flights look encouraging. The #6 cyl, is now in
> line with the other cyls. (12 deg spread across all cyls). Last weekon a
> trip from DVT to SLC, in cruise the oil temp never got above 165 degrees.
> the OAT @ 10-11k was 0 to -4 C.
> So I'm a bit worried that the oil temps are now too cool. I've been of the
> opinion that the ideal oil temp is aprox 180 deg in order to cook off any
> moisture in the oil. So I'm wondering if I need to put a valve in-line
> somewhere to help regulate the oil temps. Any feedback is appreciated.
>
> Deems
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg McFarlane" <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com> |
Sounds good Deems, does your fiberglass vent in front of the nose gear leg hang
down into the airstream and did you use the four inch scat to the oil cooler?
Also have you figured out a quick on/off for the scat to cooler when you remove
the cowls?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397071#397071
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Clamping blocks for fuse skins? |
| From: | "EdKranz" <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com> |
I'm getting close to needing to build the clamping block needed for the fuse skin
rolls.
Since I don't have a table saw, I was wondering if anyone out there still had theirs
laying around?
--------
Ed Kranz
41347
Working on Emp Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397086#397086
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
Greg,
yes it does hang down into the air stream I used a 3.12" mailing tube as
the mandrel to form the inlet tube and then faired it into the
attach/cover plate with micro/body filler , put a 3/4+ radius around the
inlet and then covered the whole thing with another couple of layers of
fiberglass. I used 3 1/4 " scat tube, and fabricated a fiberglass reducer
elbow that connects the scat to the oil cooler box. I may have some pics. I
use a stainless steel expandable clamp to attach/remove the scat tube when
taking the cowl off.
Deems
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Greg McFarlane wrote:
> >
>
> Sounds good Deems, does your fiberglass vent in front of the nose gear leg
> hang down into the airstream and did you use the four inch scat to the oil
> cooler? Also have you figured out a quick on/off for the scat to cooler
> when you remove the cowls?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397071#397071
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Johnson <bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Hey Deems, you never got back with me on the $5 bet I sent you on who's-1
0 is faster. Whats up?=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: De
ems Davis =0ATo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesd
ay, March 26, 2013 9:19 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Oil Temps=0A =0A
=0AGreg,=0A=0Ayes it does hang down into the-air stream- I used a 3.12"
mailing tube as the -mandrel to form the inlet tube and then faired it i
nto the attach/cover plate with micro/body filler , put a 3/4+ radius aroun
d the inlet and then covered the whole thing with another couple of layers
of fiberglass. I used 3 1/4 " scat tube, and fabricated a fiberglass reduce
r elbow that connects the scat to the oil cooler box. I may have some pics.
I use a stainless steel-expandable-clamp to attach/remove the scat tub
e when taking the cowl off.-=0A=0ADeems -=0A=0AOn Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at
3:47 AM, Greg McFarlane wrote:=0A=0A--> RV10-List
message posted by: "Greg McFarlane" =0A>=0A>Sound
s good Deems, does your fiberglass vent in front of the nose gear leg hang
down into the airstream and did you use the four inch scat to the oil coole
r? Also have you figured out a quick on/off for the scat to cooler when you
remove the cowls?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>h
ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397071#397071=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>============0A>arget="_blank">http:
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0A>==========
==0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>============0A>
le, List Admin.=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>=
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Clamping blocks for fuse skins? |
| From: | Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> |
I do Ed, however it a long way from Adelaide, South Australia to North America.
You're welcome to it if you pay the freight.
I had a carpenter make one up for me using seasoned recycled Jarah (hardwood) beam.
Hard as buggery!
Warm regards
Patrick
On 27/03/2013, at 1:09 AM, "EdKranz" wrote:
>
> I'm getting close to needing to build the clamping block needed for the fuse
skin rolls.
>
> Since I don't have a table saw, I was wondering if anyone out there still had
theirs laying around?
>
> --------
> Ed Kranz
> 41347
> Working on Emp Kit
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397086#397086
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> |
Does everyone's rear windows stick out from the lip this much? Picture
attached.
Is this area going to built up to make it flush when the windows get
installed? Or should I sand down and rebuild the lip to push the window
into the fuselage more?
[image: Inline image 1]
--
Vernon Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rear Windows |
Hi Vernon,
I'd do a little bit of everything... sand down the inside of the joggle,
build up the rail with flox and feather back in to meet the door. I my
case, I built up with flox and micro to meet the window, overlapped the
window with glass tape and transitioned back in to the door (pic
attathed).
Jeff Carpenter
40304... getting there.
On Mar 28, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote:
> Does everyone's rear windows stick out from the lip this much?
Picture attached.
>
> Is this area going to built up to make it flush when the windows get
installed? Or should I sand down and rebuild the lip to push the window
into the fuselage more?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Rear Windows |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rear Windows |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
I know of one instance in which the wrong windows were shipped from the Van's supplier.
They were too thick.
The more common reason is the there is a flat spot on the canopy near the window.
While not a 100% sure, I think they all come this way. Check that curve
with you door on. You may find that you have to build up you canopy which may
also resolve you window problem.
Another metric to check is to see if the relief area around the window perimeter
is a constant depth.
Are both windows the same?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 28, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Vernon Franklin wrote:
Does everyone's rear windows stick out from the lip this much? Picture attached.
Is this area going to built up to make it flush when the windows get installed?
Or should I sand down and rebuild the lip to push the window into the fuselage
more?
--
Vernon Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rear Windows |
That looks pretty normal. The joggle isn't quite deep enough. You
can build it up to be flush with the window. I recall seeing that a
few times before.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Vernon Franklin
wrote:
>
> Does everyone's rear windows stick out from the lip this much? Picture
> attached.
>
> Is this area going to built up to make it flush when the windows get
> installed? Or should I sand down and rebuild the lip to push the window
> into the fuselage more?
>
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rear Windows |
I measure the thickness of the window all the way around.... it varied by q
uite a bit.- So I sent it back to Van's and they sent me another one... m
uch better.... but as everyone has told you, do a little bit of everything.
... especially glassing around the window.... it will keep the paint from c
racking later.... hopefully.
Don Mc
--- On Thu, 3/28/13, Bob Leffler wrote:
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear Windows
Date: Thursday, March 28, 2013, 12:14 PM
I know of one instance in which the wrong windows were shipped from the Van
's supplier.- They were too thick.
The more common reason is the there is a flat spot on the canopy near the w
indow.---While not a 100% sure, I think they all come this way.--
-Check that curve with you door on.- You may find that you have to buil
d up you canopy which may also resolve you window problem.
Another metric to check is to see if the relief area around the window peri
meter- is a constant depth.
Are both windows the same?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 28, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Vernon Franklin w
rote:
Does everyone's rear windows stick out from the lip this much?- Picture a
ttached.
Is this area going to built up to make it flush when the windows get instal
led?- Or should I sand down and rebuild the lip to push the window into t
he fuselage more?
--
Vernon Franklin
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
I bought and installed the Gretz very early in my build. When I finally
hooked it up and flew, it melted. While there may be several reasons
for this, a number of people seem to have experienced it.
Even though it was 5+ years since purchase, and the current supplier is
in AUS, he made me more than whole and I've been very happy after a year
of flying with it. After a few ice encounters, it apparently works
well. I really like the "always on, constantly monitored, automatic
operation" aspect of it. I'd recommend it.
Bill " hopefully finished with the icing until next year" Watson
On 3/1/2013 3:02 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Me either. I wonder if they changed the plastics formula
> or something strange. Sean, are they being good about support?
> Will they send you another one? So far I'm planning to use
> one again on the RV-14, unless I hear of lots of issues. I've
> got the gretz mount for it already.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
I have to admit to not having fully explored the stall characteristics
near the aft CG limits because it's so difficult to do. On one hand,
loading enough sand or water for a single pilot test is very difficult
to do safely. On the other hand, I don't know 3 other people I want to
subject to the exercise.
As we all know, stalls in a "typically" loaded '10 are benign and well
behaved. Recovery doesn't really require the 'textbook' response, you
just have to relax the pro-stall controls and add some power.
I'm thinking that I may be subject to extrapolating the benign stall and
recovery characteristics at typical loadings to stall and recovery
characteristics at more rearward loadings. This is a wake up call to me
to remember to remain assertive in my recoveries. On that point, thanks
for the post!
On a somewhat related matter, I've just now fully realized just how
different the landing characteristics of the '10 are at fore and aft
loadings. I find it difficult to get anything but stick back, roll on
greasers when I'm loaded with 2 in front and bags in the baggage
compartment (about 110.4" behind datum). The easiest landing plane I've
ever flown. With 4 on board, bags and low tanks, I find carrying a bit
of power into the flare gives me the best chance of smooth one. But
it's pretty easy to arrive with authority if I come in power-off. It's
pretty easy to get a typical 'student' landing if I come in too fast.
And with stalls and landings, I keep in mind that while my old Maule's
CG moved forward as I burned off fuel, the '10 does the opposite.
Though the difference is not great.
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
> not yet flying.
>
> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>
> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
> just how it went.
>
> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>
> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>
> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
> concern.
>
> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At
both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email.
Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>
>
> Bill
>
> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> gmail.com >
>>
>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>> not yet flying.
>>
>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
>>
>>
>>
> --
>
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | F-1013 Twist: R but not L ? |
Hi all,
I'm on section 29-3, Step 3: "Clamp the F-1013-R Fwd Fuse Longeron
in a padded vise at the "forward twist mark". Twist the fwd fuse
longeron with a crescent wrench as shown in Figure 2 to obtain the
dimension shown in Figure 3. Clamp the fwd fuse longeron at the "aft
twist mark". Repeat the process using the twist direction shown in
Figure 1 to obtain the dimension shown in Figure 3."
So they say to twist the forward and aft parts of the right longeron,
but what about the forward part of the LEFT longeron? (The aft twist
does not apply to the left longeron, since the dimension shown won't
allow it.)
I can't see any difference in symmetry in the forward sections of either
L or R F-1013 longerons. Is it the plans missing it, or are you really
not supposed to twist the forward part F-1013 left longeron?
Thanks for your time!
-Jim #40384
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At b
oth I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Won
dering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote
:
>>
>> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
ail.com>
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>>> not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
>>
>> --
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> |
The original conversation was a few weeks ago...
On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At b
oth I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Won
dering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote
:
>>
>> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
ail.com>
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>>> not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
>>
>> --
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Bill, I think you'll find that as you burn gas the cg moves aft if you start out
with the cg fairly far aft. But if you start out near the forward limit, then
the cg moves forward as you burn gas. It is important with the 10 to check cg
in the landing configuration, regardless of where you start.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397337#397337
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Tim, that explains, and I vaguely recall seeing it.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> The original conversation was a few weeks ago...
>
> On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At
> both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email.
> Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>>
>> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>>
>>> gmail.com >
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>>> not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
B
=8Bill, I agree, aft vs. fwd cg makes =8Bfor two very different
landing
airplanes. Someone recently posted that their best approaches seem very
steep, and I feel the same way. The runway comes up real fast but there's
plenty of elevator--even more when loaded aft--to arrest decent and land
gently.
=8BFlying a different -10 recently, solo and light, I noticed the pla
ne lands
much more nose-down, like a flatter attitude. I need to get it a little
slower in the flare than I'm used to, and see if the nose comes up any
higher. That plane doesn't have AOA so I'm just going by speed. Maybe
that's the difference.=8B
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>
> I have to admit to not having fully explored the stall characteristics
> near the aft CG limits because it's so difficult to do. On one hand,
> loading enough sand or water for a single pilot test is very difficult to
> do safely. On the other hand, I don't know 3 other people I want to
> subject to the exercise.
>
> As we all know, stalls in a "typically" loaded '10 are benign and well
> behaved. Recovery doesn't really require the 'textbook' response, you ju
st
> have to relax the pro-stall controls and add some power.
>
> I'm thinking that I may be subject to extrapolating the benign stall and
> recovery characteristics at typical loadings to stall and recovery
> characteristics at more rearward loadings. This is a wake up call to me
to
> remember to remain assertive in my recoveries. On that point, thanks for
> the post!
>
> On a somewhat related matter, I've just now fully realized just how
> different the landing characteristics of the '10 are at fore and aft
> loadings. I find it difficult to get anything but stick back, roll on
> greasers when I'm loaded with 2 in front and bags in the baggage
> compartment (about 110.4" behind datum). The easiest landing plane I've
> ever flown. With 4 on board, bags and low tanks, I find carrying a bit o
f
> power into the flare gives me the best chance of smooth one. But it's
> pretty easy to arrive with authority if I come in power-off. It's pretty
> easy to get a typical 'student' landing if I come in too fast.
>
> And with stalls and landings, I keep in mind that while my old Maule's CG
> moved forward as I burned off fuel, the '10 does the opposite. Though th
e
> difference is not great.
>
> Bill
>
> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> gmail.com >
>>
>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>> not yet flying.
>>
>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
>> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
>> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
>> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
>> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
>> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>>
>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
>> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
>> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
>> just how it went.
>>
>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>
>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
>> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
>> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
>> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
>> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
>> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
>> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
>> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
>> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
>> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
>> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
>> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
>> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
>> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
>> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
>> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
>> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>
>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
>> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
>> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
>> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
>> concern.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
>> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>>
>>
>
=====**===================
===========**=
ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
=====**===================
===========**=
=====**===================
===========**=
com/contribution>
=====**===================
===========**=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Kelly, I think you're right, sometimes I see a conversation that is
well-developed that I definitely would have read...only to find it's pretty
far into the thread. Like I missed the original post and a few replies.
If I go to the forum, it's all there and I can catch up. Huh. I like the
black hole theory.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At
> both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email.
> Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>>
>> Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>>
>>> gmail.com >
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>>> not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | EFIS failure checklist |
Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
suggestions about what to do.
I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
and added what I thought was appropriate.
So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My only
mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have aux
standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: F-1013 Twist: R but not L ? |
| From: | "charliewaffles" <mcooper(at)live.com> |
You twist both front ends the same way, as shown in Figure 2. You are essentially
twisting the longeron UP so that it transitions to the firewall weldaments
later on.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397362#397362
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Dave,
I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment there's no need to
be messing around with airspeed, especially if pitot data is in question. You
might add: "cross check with gps ground speed".
If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or directly off a gps
source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS source off" or however your EFIS/independent
op switch is labeled. And of course, if your autopilot is only driven
off the EFIS it should be "autopilot - off".
Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT
screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the
panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach
to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would
definitely be best to go somewhere else!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: F-1013 Twist: R but not L ? |
That was my first thought as well, but if you read the whole page
carefully, it never says to twist the left F-1013.
Although it wouldn't be the first omission I've seen so far (the most
recent was the roll construction angles - it doesn't say what thickness
material to use!).
-Jim 40384
On 3/30/2013 8:19 PM, charliewaffles wrote:
>
> You twist both front ends the same way, as shown in Figure 2. You are essentially
twisting the longeron UP so that it transitions to the firewall weldaments
later on.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397362#397362
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: F-1013 Twist: R but not L ? |
You will find many places they give drawing/instructions for one side
and tell you to mirror image the other side, if they mention it at all.
On 3/30/2013 6:08 PM, James Hein wrote:
>
> That was my first thought as well, but if you read the whole page
> carefully, it never says to twist the left F-1013.
>
> Although it wouldn't be the first omission I've seen so far (the most
> recent was the roll construction angles - it doesn't say what
> thickness material to use!).
>
> -Jim 40384
>
> On 3/30/2013 8:19 PM, charliewaffles wrote:
>>
>> You twist both front ends the same way, as shown in Figure 2. You are
>> essentially twisting the longeron UP so that it transitions to the
>> firewall weldaments later on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397362#397362
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost my
gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and level.
If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go to less busy
approach control that has radar approach listed in approach plates book,
and ask for one. It is definitely different than doing your own nav
approaches.
On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
> -
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT
screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in
the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand
held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach
to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it
would definitely be best to go somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Thanks Bob. "Airspeed: maintain" is better. I changed the autopilot item
reply from "ON" to "PUSH AP". That way the EFIS is out of the system and
the AP holds current heading and vertical speed by its own gyros.
Hopefully I can stabilize things from there. Maybe it's best to avoid
following a GPS flight plan altogether, and just fly an assigned heading.
When I said there wouldn't be much hope, I meant in a total and complete
failure...even then I'm still gonna try! I thoroughly expect to land if a
single item or two should fail.
Edits to checklist attached.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment there's no
> need to be messing around with airspeed, especially if pitot data is in
> question. You might add: "cross check with gps ground speed".
>
> If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or directly off
> a gps source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS source off" or however
> your EFIS/independent op switch is labeled. And of course, if your
> autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it should be "autopilot - off".
>
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my
> GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all
> NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery
> powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a
> passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were
> less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop turn"
thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost my
> gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and level. If
> you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go to less busy
> approach control that has radar approach listed in approach plates book,
> and ask for one. It is definitely different than doing your own nav
> approaches.
>
>
> On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
>> -
>> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all
>> my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all
>> NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery
>> powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a
>> passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were
>> less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Turner
>> RV-10 QB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.
On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop
> turn" thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen > wrote:
>
> >
>
> That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost
> my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and
> level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go
> to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in
> approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different
> than doing your own nav approaches.
>
>
> On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> -
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the
> internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
> VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable
> VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility
> were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go
> somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
>
> ===================================
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===================================
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu> |
Dave,
I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
POH.
>From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
checklists that you know by heart.
Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
would have to fail to lose all of those.
-Jim
N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
> suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My only
> mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have aux
> standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave,
On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for
my POH.
>
> =46rom an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea
to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a
failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm
not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't
put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might
be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation.
In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI,
and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one.
If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel'
gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on
my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a
lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor
wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other
checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC
with a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed
prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I
have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot,
and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave,
If you have the D10A with the backup lithium
battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.
Alan
On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for
my POH.
>
> =46rom an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea
to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a
failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm
not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't
put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might
be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation.
In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI,
and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one.
If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel'
gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on
my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a
lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor
wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other
checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC
with a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed
prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I
have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot,
and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com> |
Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder (327)
in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
Jim C
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Alan Mekler MD wrote:
> Dave,
> On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Some comments (IMHO).
I don't fly IMC but do use checklists ...... and have suffered my own
inflight emergencies. I think a few of us will handle emergencies
correctly, but until you really have one (hope you don't) you really
don't know how you'll react ..... will you be cool or hit the panic
button. In my emergencies I didn't even think of looking up a checklist
..... too busy. Remember the three basic items: Aviate, Communicate,
Navigate.
You should have everything in your checklist 'automatic' when something
fails but separated into categories:
The first item is 'FLY THE AIRPLANE'.
If the engine fails your 'engine checklist' covers those items pertinent
to a smooth running engine.
If something electrical fails your checklist covers things you can
change .... circuit breakers/fuses etc. although I don't recommend
changing fuses in flight, and only one attempt at resetting a circuit
breaker.
With essential buss and/or individual EFIS backup batteries you should
never have a total EFIS failure that you have any control over.
I'm also reminded of the suggestion: 'Fly the airplane as deep into the
crash as you can.'
And I have one other suggestion .... practice those emergencies every so
often, and involve your front seat passenger, if you have one, in
handling your 'emergency'. It's a safe bet that you'll forget items
unless you practice. Checklists are great when you have the time to use
them, but under pressure ...... I really don't think we will take the time.
Maybe it's just me and y'all are far more cool under pressure than I am.
Linn
PS My off-field emergencies did no further damage to the airplane nor
property on the ground. I was terribly lucky and had a whole lot of
Angels (they sit on my shoulders) to help me out.
On 3/30/2013 11:47 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Thanks Bob. "Airspeed: maintain" is better. I changed the autopilot
> item reply from "ON" to "PUSH AP". That way the EFIS is out of the
> system and the AP holds current heading and vertical speed by its own
> gyros. Hopefully I can stabilize things from there. Maybe it's best
> to avoid following a GPS flight plan altogether, and just fly an
> assigned heading.
>
> When I said there wouldn't be much hope, I meant in a total and
> complete failure...even then I'm still gonna try! I thoroughly expect
> to land if a single item or two should fail.
>
> Edits to checklist attached.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Bob Turner > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Dave,
>
> I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment
> there's no need to be messing around with airspeed, especially if
> pitot data is in question. You might add: "cross check with gps
> ground speed".
>
> If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or
> directly off a gps source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS
> source off" or however your EFIS/independent op switch is labeled.
> And of course, if your autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it
> should be "autopilot - off".
>
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal
> battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could
> have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach
> to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a
> mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
> ==========
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I know,
what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the checklist,
it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and keep the airplane
going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and the controller immediately
offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an area with higher bases.
Once I felt I was back in control, the only indication I had of the vacuum
failure was the disconnect between the attitude indicator and turn/slip, I had
my father in law pull the instrument covers out of my flight bag and I covered
the affected instruments and it was just like I was flying with my instructor.
In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the autopilot
being the primary safety instrument......
BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that would not
work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponder comes from
EFIS.
Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR without
my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice). That will give me everything I need to navigate
including GPS altitude.....
Rene
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: EFIS failure checklist
Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.
On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop
> turn" thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen > wrote:
>
> >
>
> That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost
> my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and
> level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go
> to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in
> approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different
> than doing your own nav approaches.
>
>
> On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> -
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the
> internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
> VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable
> VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility
> were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go
> somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
>
> ===================================
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===================================
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential
single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.
One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual
adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to
display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is
backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery
for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving
ground track and ground speed.
Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and
low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.
The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping
the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning
and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the
"leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing
buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to
interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are
in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a
controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell
phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with
no gyros.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
> Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder
> (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
> altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
> altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
>
> Jim C
> --------------------
> sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> |
Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea. For those of us who have been through
the entire build process we are usually aware of how the systems interact
(where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the autopilot gets its data,
etc.). If this was a factory airplane it would have an extensive POH / data
section written to explain all of this. At least I assume a Cessna 172 with
all glass has an extended POH. If nothing else it is useful to document how
all of these things are interacting to help trouble shoot when something starts
not working. Sometimes, not always, a failure can occur when you are in clear
blue on top looking at an ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are
going to get back down. In these cases you do have some time to do some basic
trouble shooting. Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our
airplanes, but documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems
work - although I would argue no amount of documentation can replace actually
building and the decision making that went into the build. After building
an airplane I now realize just how ignorant I was back in the days I first
started to rent, even after I had purchased a factory airplane I was still in
the dark as to how these thing are really put together. A great side benefit
to this portion of our hobby is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes.
It is truly ashamed that this is not reflected in our accident rates.
Sorry - now onto my question... Back when I was writing our POH I looked at an
example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setup of the GPS,
EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches. Does anyone know where
I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim's site and VAF)?
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397418#397418
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency
when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head
fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent
back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines
I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After
reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed
with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing.
$10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed
by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini
EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable
using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can
install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon
D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack
info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT
Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should
primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> |
Hi all, a question for the Canadian RV10 builders. I had a pre cover
inspection done yesterday and the inspector stated that seat belts had to
be TSO'd. Does anyone know if Vans belts are up to the standard we require
in Canada? Vans web site does say the belts meet certification standards,
so I would have to assume they are ok with Transport Canada too.
Anyone know for sure?
Thx, Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Somebody said it's not the stuff you know about that gets you, it's the
stuff you don't know about...I do expect to rely on the D10A if the AFS
fails. I just want to be able to get from one to the other without going
too far into the weeds.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:56 AM, Alan Mekler MD wrote:
> Dave,
> If you have the D10A with the backup lithium
> battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.
> Alan
>
> On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Jim, as Linn touched on as well, the checklist is to verify that I'm on the
right track. I don't expect to be calm enough to know I'm out of control
and also cooly reach for the checklist. As you've said, memorize the first
items (Autopilot:AP, Refer to backups) and then use the checklist to
refocus and do things in the right order.
I think referring to the checklist at some point is very important. A few
things have to be automatic though.
As far as how to set up equipment, the AFS manual is pretty good to get you
in the ballpark for normal operations. Everyone has preferences and
training that makes each setup unique. It's good to write it down, though,
to force yourself to think about it. I've modified my checklist a bunch of
times to fine tune it and to account for changing equipment.
I don't have a spinning mass gyro. If I loose all attitude reference it's
up to the autopilot's separate gyros and whatever info I can cobble
together. If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. My
thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC.
But a decent electric attitude indicator is pretty dang expensive. A TC
is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.
That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting) some
feedback on the structure of the checklist.
Thanks!
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Good point to cover the inop instruments. I don't know if the big red X on
the AFS or grey screen on the D10A will suffice to make me not want to look
at them. Hopefully I could ignore them but I've heard at least one study
that says they're irresistible to our eyeballs, even knowing they're inop.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Rene wrote:
>
> Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I
> know, what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the
> checklist, it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and kee
p
> the airplane going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and t
he
> controller immediately offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an are
a
> with higher bases. Once I felt I was back in control, the only indicatio
n
> I had of the vacuum failure was the disconnect between the attitude
> indicator and turn/slip, I had my father in law pull the instrument cover
s
> out of my flight bag and I covered the affected instruments and it was ju
st
> like I was flying with my instructor.
>
> In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the
> autopilot being the primary safety instrument......
>
> BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that
> would not work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponde
r
> comes from EFIS.
>
> Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR
> without my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice). That will give me everything I
> need to navigate including GPS altitude.....
>
> Rene=99
> N423CF
> 801-721-6080
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:00 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: EFIS failure checklist
>
>
> Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.
>
> On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> > Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop
> > turn" thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
> >
> > Dave Saylor
> > 831-750-0284 CL
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost
> > my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> > Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and
> > level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go
> > to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in
> > approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different
> > than doing your own nav approaches.
> >
> >
> > On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
> >
> > -
> > Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> > down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> > actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the
> > internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
> > VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable
> > VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility
> > were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go
> > somewhere else!
> >
> > --------
> > Bob Turner
> > RV-10 QB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > ======================
=============
> > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > ======================
=============
> > MS -
> > k">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ======================
=============
> > e -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ======================
=============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
J
=8Bason, I think I put a reply to you in another post...anyway, the A
FS
manual is pretty good at getting you set up for different scenarios. They
don't use a checklist format, more of a paragraph description, but you can
glean the information from that. Of course you have to using similar
equipment--digiflght or AFS autopilot and G430/530. They might have
procedures for the GTNs by now.=8B
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:35 AM, jkreidler
wrote:
> jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
>
> Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea. For those of us who have
> been through the entire build process we are usually aware of how the
> systems interact (where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the
> autopilot gets its data, etc.). If this was a factory airplane it would
> have an extensive POH / data section written to explain all of this. At
> least I assume a Cessna 172 with all glass has an extended POH. If nothi
ng
> else it is useful to document how all of these things are interacting to
> help trouble shoot when something starts not working. Sometimes, not
> always, a failure can occur when you are in clear blue on top looking at
an
> ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are going to get back down.
> In these cases you do have some time to do some basic trouble shooting.
> Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our airplanes, bu
t
> documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems work
-
> although I would argue no amount of do!
> cumentation can replace actually building and the decision making that
> went into the build. After building an airplane I now realize just how
> ignorant I was back in the days I first started to rent, even after I had
> purchased a factory airplane I was still in the dark as to how these thin
g
> are really put together. A great side benefit to this portion of our hob
by
> is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes. It is truly asham
ed
> that this is not reflected in our accident rates.
>
> Sorry - now onto my question... Back when I was writing our POH I looked
> at an example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setu
p
> of the GPS, EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches. Does
> anyone know where I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim'
s
> site and VAF)?
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397418#397418
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother.
I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are
gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an
> emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and
> your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a
> 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
> I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation
> magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well
> designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video
> I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to
> find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
> Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once
> installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to
> the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
> I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel
> comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For
> $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up
> battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a
> years worth of AV gas.
> My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6
> pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting
> for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace
> of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
>
> Robin
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I agree I'll have my hands full. Geez, I could barely keep up with
trimming the airplane during an approach til I installed autotrim.
I've already decided that just about any little glitch is pretty serious,
in which case I'm asking for as much help as I can get. Maybe a delay
vector to sort things out or maybe the E word...it's even on the checklist
as a reminder that it's an option.
Again, aviate, navigate, communicate.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential
> single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.
> One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual
> adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to
> display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is
> backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery
> for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving
> ground track and ground speed.
> Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and
> low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.
> The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping
> the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning
> and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the
> "leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing
> buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to
> interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are
> in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a
> controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell
> phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with
> no gyros.
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
>
>> Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder
>> (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
>> altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
>> altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
>>
>> Jim C
>> --------------------
>
>
>> sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> |
When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software
of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical
backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could go
back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of course
back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail. I
am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup
if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go.
As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Jason, I think that is why many are recommending 3 sources of information. For
me, the Trio autopilot will display a symbolic turn coordinator. So if main and
backup efis don't agree there is a tie breaker. Also don't forget that old fashioned
wet compass. If your efis shows wings level but that compass is moving
chances are good that you are not wings level. GPS based moving map will also
show if the wings aren't level.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397455#397455
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could sometimes
practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were
to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior
to an ASR approach.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397457#397457
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I believe most EFIS panels will tell you exactly what fails ...... when
the compass/ahars fails it's usually no send data, not erroneous data,
although that may happen in some instances. Degrading instruments (such
as with vacuum failure or gyro failure) are a thing of the past.
Electronics, once passed the infant failure mode are pretty reliable,
but not bullet proof.
On my systems (MGL Odysseys) when items fail I get "X"s or FAIL messages
or alarms when data goes out of limits. It all depends on the system
and how it's programmed.
Linn
On 3/31/2013 5:09 PM, jkreidler wrote:
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software
of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical
backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could
go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of
course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail.
I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup
if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go.
As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
If you really want a spinning gyro, a turn and bank will give you a more
correct indication of whether you are turning or not than a turn
coordinator will. The TC responds to bank or turn, and can be confused for
pitch that it doesn't have.
On the other hand, it is pretty hard to beat either a Dynon D1 EFIS, or I
think it is the D6 that is similar cost but adds static system connection
for real airspeed/altitude instead of GPS derived ground speed and
altitude. Also avoids needing to switch mental gears from EFIS to round
dial.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Dave Saylor <
dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't have a spinning mass gyro. If I loose all attitude reference
> it's up to the autopilot's separate gyros and whatever info I can cobble
> together. If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. My
> thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC.
> But a decent electric attitude indicator is pretty dang expensive. A TC
> is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.
>
> That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting)
> some feedback on the structure of the checklist.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
>> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
>> POH.
>>
>> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to
>> lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
>> problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure
>> in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to
>> saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these
>> checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind
>> of checklists that you know by heart.
>>
>> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
>> shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
>> reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In
>> my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
>> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
>> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
>> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
>> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
>> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>>
>> -Jim
>> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
>> dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>>> suggestions about what to do.
>>>
>>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>>
>>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>>
>>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
>>> I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>>
>>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Saylor
>>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
They still show in my approach plate books. Policy varies by command
whether you can get a practice or not. I know Luke AFB does not allow,
not sure about Davis Monthan or Yuma MCAS. If you are skilled enough or
desperate enough, they can talk you all the way to touch down, but it
will take the E word to get them to continue guidance below minimums
that are normally 200 & one half.
On 3/31/2013 2:34 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could
sometimes practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were
to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior
to an ASR approach.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397457#397457
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Rick,
TSOd belts come with a certification tag attached to the belt. The belts i received
from Vans did not have any documentation. I would check with vans on the
cert. documents if they exist.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397490#397490
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and
it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12
miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise
normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false
indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey
screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown
screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, jkreidler
wrote:
> jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the
> software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go
> with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was
> so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was
> failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and
> how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just
> wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing
> which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't
> know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and
it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12
miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise
normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false
indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey
screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown
screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, jkreidler
wrote:
> jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the
> software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go
> with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was
> so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was
> failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and
> how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just
> wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing
> which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't
> know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> |
Hmmm, yeah I will call then today. I was going to order a few things from
Vans to send to my sisters when we get to St Louis. Is there anything you
need?
While I'm thinking of it, did you buy the rear seat foam from Vans? The
front seats obviously have a frame, but I'm assuming the rear seats just
have the foam covered and then velcro in place?
Thx, Rick
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:04 PM, bill.peyton wrote:
>
> Rick,
> TSOd belts come with a certification tag attached to the belt. The belts
> i received from Vans did not have any documentation. I would check with
> vans on the cert. documents if they exist.
>
> --------
> Bill
> WA0SYV
> Aviation Partners, LLC
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397490#397490
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> |
You could install just an inclinometer for a few bucks that would at least
tell you whether you were coordinated, whether in bank or not. Odds are
that in unintended bank you might also be uncoordinated.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Dave Saylor <
dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and
> it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12
> miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
>
> I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise
> normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false
> indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey
> screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown
> screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
>
> So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> |
I purchased my belts from Hooker Harness. They worked well in the 8A so I d
ecided to go with them again.
Carl
On Apr 1, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Rick Lark wrote:
> Hmmm, yeah I will call then today. I was going to order a few things from
Vans to send to my sisters when we get to St Louis. Is there anything you n
eed?
>
> While I'm thinking of it, did you buy the rear seat foam from Vans? The f
ront seats obviously have a frame, but I'm assuming the rear seats just have
the foam covered and then velcro in place?
>
> Thx, Rick
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:04 PM, bill.peyton wro
te:
>>
>> Rick,
>> TSOd belts come with a certification tag attached to the belt. The belts
i received from Vans did not have any documentation. I would check with va
ns on the cert. documents if they exist.
>>
>> --------
>> Bill
>> WA0SYV
>> Aviation Partners, LLC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397490#397490
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I just saw an RV8 yesterday, being prepped for DAR inspection. Problem
#1, seat belt hardware in stock rear seat location interfered with flap
operation. Problem #2, front seat belt anchors were too close together
in stock plans location for anyone over 125 lbs and 28 in waist.
Something to ponder long before nearing completion. Fabrication of new
anchors or offsets in last few days causes stress in more ways than one.
On 4/1/2013 7:56 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote:
> I purchased my belts from Hooker Harness. They worked well in the 8A
> so I decided to go with them again.
>
> Carl
>
> On Apr 1, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Rick Lark > wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, yeah I will call then today. I was going to order a few things
>> from Vans to send to my sisters when we get to St Louis. Is there
>> anything you need?
>>
>> While I'm thinking of it, did you buy the rear seat foam from Vans?
>> The front seats obviously have a frame, but I'm assuming the rear
>> seats just have the foam covered and then velcro in place?
>>
>> Thx, Rick
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:04 PM, bill.peyton > > wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> Rick,
>> TSOd belts come with a certification tag attached to the belt.
>> The belts i received from Vans did not have any documentation.
>> I would check with vans on the cert. documents if they exist.
>>
>> --------
>> Bill
>> WA0SYV
>> Aviation Partners, LLC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397490#397490
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron B." <ronbelliveau(at)eastlink.ca> |
I do not remember that being a requirement or even being discussed. I think we
have Hooker harnesses in ours, but I don't know if they are TSO'd.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397530#397530
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of
those from Oregon Aero.
I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if you're
bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like to see
what they're like.
Linn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
| From: | Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> |
Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit in
the back seat? ;-)
Rick
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn wrote:
> I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of
> those from Oregon Aero.
> I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
>
> I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if you're
> bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like to see
> what they're like.
>
> Linn
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Geoff Combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com> |
Linn
I have the rear seat foams available like the ones Vans sells for $200.00
Here is a photo of recent seats I did. These have memory foam
in bottom cushions and high quality bolster foam
Geoff
Geoff Combs
Aerosport Products
8090 howe industrial pkwy
canal winchester, ohio 43110
614.834.8659p
<http://www.aerosportproducts.com/> www.aerosportproducts.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit in the
back seat? ;-)
Rick
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn wrote:
I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of those
from Oregon Aero.
I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if you're
bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like to see what
they're like.
Linn
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
it=99s all the same foam. You=99re paying for the Name only.
I know Oregon Aero told me that needed to get their money back for their
R&D on the front seats and rear seats. I built my own rear seats and
think I should get $50 for my R&D.
I don=99t recall where the foam comes from, When I was helping
Desser put together a airframe package I saw they had rolls of the foam.
They told me they provided the seats for the RV=99s, but I
don=99t think it was for the RV-10. Bottom line, I bought some of
the blue and pink (softer) foam online for about $40 for my custom built
(by me) seats, have plenty left over too. Most of the seats are formed
foam that is rather cheap in general.
From: Linn
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:50 AM
Subject: RV10-List: rear seat foam
I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of
those from Oregon Aero.
I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if you're
bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like to see
what they're like.
Linn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
worse than that.. how often will your family sit in the back seat? If
they aint happy no one is flying with you.. Ask me how I know, they are
happy as clams back there and never complain. Usually when we fly as a
family I=99m going 4hr legs.
Good point however, if no one is really going to be back there for long
save the money and use a few pillows covered by a walmart seat cover..
Just don=99t let anyone see it however
From: Rick Lark
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit in
the back seat? ;-)
Rick
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn wrote:
I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of
those from Oregon Aero.
I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if
you're bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like
to see what they're like.
Linn
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
I'll only sit in the back ...... at SNF :-D
I'm going to travel around the country, possibly with a full load, so
the comfort of the rear seats is kinda important ..... especially if I
can get whacked by the passenger behind me!!!
Thanks for the note .... made me chuckle!
Linn
On 4/1/2013 3:06 PM, Rick Lark wrote:
> Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit
> in the back seat? ;-)
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn > wrote:
>
> I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost
> of those from Oregon Aero.
> I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
>
> I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if
> you're bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd
> like to see what they're like.
>
> Linn
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
Van's has RV-10 rear seat foam cores that have 3 pieces (seat, back,
lumbar) X 2 seats for $315 now. The O.A. seats are $342/seat and don't
have the lumbar cushion.
O.A. says their seats are pure memory foam while Vans has cheaper foam
in places. Makes choosing difficult.
Linn
On 4/1/2013 3:49 PM, Geoff Combs wrote:
> Linn
> I have the rear seat foams available like the ones Vans sells for
> $200.00 Here is a photo of recent seats I did. These have memory foam
> in bottom cushions and high quality bolster foam
> Geoff
> *
> *Geoff Combs *
> Aerosport Products
> 8090 howe industrial pkwy
> canal winchester, ohio 43110
> *614.834.8659p
> *www.aerosportproducts.com <http://www.aerosportproducts.com/>
> *
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Lark
> *Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
>
> Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit
> in the back seat? ;-)
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn > wrote:
>
> I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost
> of those from Oregon Aero.
> I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
>
> I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if
> you're bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd
> like to see what they're like.
>
> Linn
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
Geoff did my seats and I'm very pleased how they came out. Photos are on mykitlog.com
site.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
| From: | "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> |
I have Van's foam, covered by a local shop. Wife and friends have sat back there,
they say it's comfortable.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397570#397570
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
not really. Memory foam is over rated. None of my cars have it and they
are quite comfortable when we drove for hours. When it gets cold, memory
foam are like rock until warmed up. Forget the hype buy 2-3 sq ft of the
memory foam for your bum and the rest can be the same foam used at car
shops.
I enclosed my seats layout for your review. This setup works today, I
think this is the same setup as Vans- but I bet a good shop can
duplicate it.
From: Linn
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
Van's has RV-10 rear seat foam cores that have 3 pieces (seat, back,
lumbar) X 2 seats for $315 now. The O.A. seats are $342/seat and don't
have the lumbar cushion.
O.A. says their seats are pure memory foam while Vans has cheaper foam
in places. Makes choosing difficult.
Linn
On 4/1/2013 3:49 PM, Geoff Combs wrote:
Linn
I have the rear seat foams available like the ones Vans sells for
$200.00 Here is a photo of recent seats I did. These have memory foam
in bottom cushions and high quality bolster foam
Geoff
Geoff Combs
Aerosport Products
8090 howe industrial pkwy
canal winchester, ohio 43110
614.834.8659p
www.aerosportproducts.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit
in the back seat? ;-)
Rick
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn wrote:
I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of
those from Oregon Aero.
I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the
comfort.
I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if
you're bringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like
to see what they're like.
Linn
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/01/13
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
| From: | Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
I recommend giving Geoff a call to ask about the things he does to different
iate his product from others. Ask him about how he ties down pleats and sea
ms. Or how he adds foam to soften the edges around the seat frame.
Many of you know that Geoff and I are friends, but I'm also a satisfied cust
omer.
I believe he'll be flying to SnF, so you can see his seats in person. Ther
e are also a few other forum members that have Geoff's seat too.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 1, 2013, at 4:56 PM, Linn wrote:
Van's has RV-10 rear seat foam cores that have 3 pieces (seat, back, lumbar)
X 2 seats for $315 now. The O.A. seats are $342/seat and don't have the lu
mbar cushion.
O.A. says their seats are pure memory foam while Vans has cheaper foam in pl
aces. Makes choosing difficult.
Linn
On 4/1/2013 3:49 PM, Geoff Combs wrote:
> Linn
> I have the rear seat foams available like the ones Vans sells for $200.00 H
ere is a photo of recent seats I did. These have memory foam
> in bottom cushions and high quality bolster foam
>
>
>
> Geoff
>
> Geoff Combs
> Aerosport Products
> 8090 howe industrial pkwy
> canal winchester, ohio 43110
> 614.834.8659p
> www.aerosportproducts.com
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: rear seat foam
>
> Linn, one way of looking at you dilemma is.....how often will you sit in t
he back seat? ;-)
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Linn wrote:
>> I have a dilemma ..... Van's RV-10 rear seat foam is 1/2 the cost of thos
e from Oregon Aero.
>> I would like opinions on whether the extra cost is worth the comfort.
>>
>> I'd also like to sit in both the Oregon Aero seats and Vans so if you're b
ringing your RV-10 with Oregon Aero seats to Sun-n-Fun I'd like to see what
they're like.
>>
>> Linn
>>
>>
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 04/01/13
>
==========================
========
==========================
========
==========================
========
==========================
========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
| From: | "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> |
I went with the Van's rear seat foam. I get consistently good reports on back seat
comfort from adults. I rode in Tim Olson's back seat in 2006 or 2007 and was
impressed at how roomy the back seat is and how comfortable the seats are.
I am 6'1" and usually (but not always!!) a bit north of 200 pounds.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Transition Trainer
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397601#397601
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I don't think so.
http://utubeclassic.com/watch.php?v=j4IE9DMpj0U
I am having a difficult time sourcing the company page or the original vide
o. Above is a 3rd party video.
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.
com> wrote:
Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother.
I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonn
a to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks > wrote:
robin(at)painttheweb.com>>
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an em
ergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and y
our head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a
100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation
magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well design
ed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was
impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find t
he unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once ins
talled by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the
TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel co
mfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K
I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery,
buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years wo
rth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6
pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting
for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace o
f mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/md302-sam
There is a button to "add to cart" . I bet you could schedule it for Saturd
ay delivery. :-)
Robin
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.
com> wrote:
Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother.
I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonn
a to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks > wrote:
robin(at)painttheweb.com>>
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an em
ergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and y
our head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a
100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation
magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well design
ed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was
impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find t
he unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once ins
talled by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the
TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel co
mfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K
I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery,
buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years wo
rth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6
pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting
for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace o
f mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rear seat foam |
Pascal,
they came out very nice, you could marketing them and sell to get your
R&D back ;)
On 01.04.2013 22:16, Pascal wrote:
> its all the same foam. Youre paying for the Name only. I know Oregon
> Aero told me that needed to get their money back for their R&D on the
> front seats and rear seats. I built my own rear seats and think I should
> get $50 for my R&D.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodger Todd <rj_todd(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Hi Robin,
-
The standby EFIS you are referring to is the Mid-Continent-MD 302, $9475
at Spruce.- The unit Dave is quoting is the L3 Trilogy which is approx $1
3k if I remember correctly.- A third alternative would be the Aspen stand
by unit announced at the end of last year.
-
Best wishes,
-
Rodger
--- On Tue, 2/4/13, Robin Marks wrote:
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: EFIS failure checklist
Date: Tuesday, 2 April, 2013, 6:36
I don't think so.
http://utubeclassic.com/watch.php?v=j4IE9DMpj0U
I am having a difficult time sourcing the company page or the original vide
o. Above is a 3rd party video.
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.
com> wrote:
Is that the L3 unit? -I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother
. -I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are
gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an em
ergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and y
our head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a
100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation
magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well design
ed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was
impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find t
he unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once ins
talled by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the
TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel co
mfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K
I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery,
buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years wo
rth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6
pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting
for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace o
f mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
- - - - --Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net> |
How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over 10
quarts for me typically blows out.
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
Michael,
I usually put a bit in the oil filter then 7 quarts in the case. I then add another
quart 20+ hours in. On my old cowl the breather tube was undersized at 3/4"
which I now realize was a problem. With 7 Quarts I didn't have any blow by
on the belly but if I put 8 quarts in it coated the belly. When we replaced the
cowl we also replaced the 3/4" breather with a 1" breather tube. At the same
time they did an oil change and put in 11 Quarts. Holly S*** 11 Quarts. I know
I would be degreasing for the next 10 flight hours. That didn't happen. My belly
is bone dry after 2 - 3+ hour flights and another 10 - 1 hour flights. Big
surprise to me. I will still probably stay with 8 quarts for me on a go forward
basis. YMMV.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:35 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Oil level
-->
How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over 10
quarts for me typically blows out.
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> |
I like it at 9, top it off when it gets to 8. I put a couple extra marks
on the dipstick at 7 and 8.
On Tuesday, April 2, 2013, Michael Kraus wrote:
> >
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything
> over 10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
>
--
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com> |
I discovered that anything above 7qts would "disappear". I have a can that
holds the blowby so I can see how much oil is blown and it sure isn't much.
I have been running mine at 6.5-6.0qt before adding another qt.
The advice my engine builder gave me was let the oil go until it stops. Some
io-540 can run at 6, some at 8 or 9qts. In other words the oil stopped going
down at around 6qts. I can go about 5 hours or so before I see any drop, but
if I take it to 8qts the oil goes down within 2-3 hours to 7qts, than slowly
to 6 where it seems to hold without loss..
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil level
Michael,
I usually put a bit in the oil filter then 7 quarts in the case. I then add
another quart 20+ hours in. On my old cowl the breather tube was undersized
at 3/4" which I now realize was a problem. With 7 Quarts I didn't have any
blow by on the belly but if I put 8 quarts in it coated the belly. When we
replaced the cowl we also replaced the 3/4" breather with a 1" breather
tube. At the same time they did an oil change and put in 11 Quarts. Holly
S*** 11 Quarts. I know I would be degreasing for the next 10 flight hours.
That didn't happen. My belly is bone dry after 2 - 3+ hour flights and
another 10 - 1 hour flights. Big surprise to me. I will still probably stay
with 8 quarts for me on a go forward basis. YMMV.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:35 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Oil level
-->
How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything
over 10 quarts for me typically blows out.
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
I have been starting at 9 and letting it go to 8 where is stabilizes.
Anything above 9 and in a couple of hours it will be at 9.... YMMV
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil level
I discovered that anything above 7qts would "disappear". I have a can that
holds the blowby so I can see how much oil is blown and it sure isn't much.
I have been running mine at 6.5-6.0qt before adding another qt.
The advice my engine builder gave me was let the oil go until it stops. Some
io-540 can run at 6, some at 8 or 9qts. In other words the oil stopped going
down at around 6qts. I can go about 5 hours or so before I see any drop, but
if I take it to 8qts the oil goes down within 2-3 hours to 7qts, than slowly
to 6 where it seems to hold without loss..
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil level
Michael,
I usually put a bit in the oil filter then 7 quarts in the case. I then add
another quart 20+ hours in. On my old cowl the breather tube was undersized
at 3/4" which I now realize was a problem. With 7 Quarts I didn't have any
blow by on the belly but if I put 8 quarts in it coated the belly. When we
replaced the cowl we also replaced the 3/4" breather with a 1" breather
tube. At the same time they did an oil change and put in 11 Quarts. Holly
S*** 11 Quarts. I know I would be degreasing for the next 10 flight hours.
That didn't happen. My belly is bone dry after 2 - 3+ hour flights and
another 10 - 1 hour flights. Big surprise to me. I will still probably stay
with 8 quarts for me on a go forward basis. YMMV.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:35 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Oil level
-->
How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything
over 10 quarts for me typically blows out.
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
For the first 200+ hours, I was putting in 10 quarts
At 260 hours, I put in 7 which registers at 6.
Why? I've been attempting to get my oil temperature up to at least 150F.
Bill "changing it again as we speak" Watson
On 4/2/2013 3:35 PM, Michael Kraus wrote:
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over
10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> |
Robin,
Do you have an oil separator in the breather line, with the new 1" line or previously
with the 3/4"?
Gordon
On Apr 2, 2013, at 10:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I usually put a bit in the oil filter then 7 quarts in the case. I then add another
quart 20+ hours in. On my old cowl the breather tube was undersized at
3/4" which I now realize was a problem. With 7 Quarts I didn't have any blow by
on the belly but if I put 8 quarts in it coated the belly. When we replaced
the cowl we also replaced the 3/4" breather with a 1" breather tube. At the same
time they did an oil change and put in 11 Quarts. Holly S*** 11 Quarts. I know
I would be degreasing for the next 10 flight hours. That didn't happen. My
belly is bone dry after 2 - 3+ hour flights and another 10 - 1 hour flights.
Big surprise to me. I will still probably stay with 8 quarts for me on a go forward
basis. YMMV.
>
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:35 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Oil level
>
> -->
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over
10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
I had the Andair Air/Oil with the 3/4" line in the prior cowl set up. That is probably
why we used 3/4". The new set up has no Air/Oil unit.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil level
Robin,
Do you have an oil separator in the breather line, with the new 1" line or previously
with the 3/4"?
Gordon
On Apr 2, 2013, at 10:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I usually put a bit in the oil filter then 7 quarts in the case. I then add another
quart 20+ hours in. On my old cowl the breather tube was undersized at
3/4" which I now realize was a problem. With 7 Quarts I didn't have any blow by
on the belly but if I put 8 quarts in it coated the belly. When we replaced
the cowl we also replaced the 3/4" breather with a 1" breather tube. At the same
time they did an oil change and put in 11 Quarts. Holly S*** 11 Quarts. I know
I would be degreasing for the next 10 flight hours. That didn't happen. My
belly is bone dry after 2 - 3+ hour flights and another 10 - 1 hour flights.
Big surprise to me. I will still probably stay with 8 quarts for me on a go forward
basis. YMMV.
>
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> Kraus
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:35 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Oil level
>
> -->
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over
10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nikolaos Napoli <napolin(at)me.com> |
After almost 9 years with a slow build with a few years sabatical in there I
got N516NA airborne on 3/30/13. The plane flew very well with no problems.
Flew for about 45 minutes with two takeoffs and landings at different airp
orts.
Although its airworthy its is still not "finished"
Thanks to everyone on this list for the help over the years and specially to
David Maib for the transition training.
You can see the takeoff and landing from my home airport 58M at the link bel
ow.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrkii7sgzw7x77w/hPy-wHKaBe
Good luck to everyone yet to reach this stage and hope to meet some of my fe
llow RV10 fliers at flying events.
Niko
Nikolaos Napoli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I have tried numerous levels, but come to the conclusion that anything over 9 is
just a waste of money. The biggest changes I observed with consumption was
going from the aeroshell 15/50 to Phillips XC 20/50. I used to burn a quart every
8 hours with the aero, now I have gone 10 hours with the Phillips product
and I am only down 1/4qt after 10 hours. My engine has 110 hrs. I intend to
not add oil until the 7 qt level.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397723#397723
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Leikam <arplnplt(at)gmail.com> |
9.
Dave Leikam
On Apr 2, 2013, at 2:35 PM, Michael Kraus wrote:
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10? Anything over
10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Sweet! Congratulations!
Bill Watson
N215TG
On 4/3/2013 7:35 AM, Nikolaos Napoli wrote:
> After almost 9 years with a slow build with a few years sabatical in
> there I got N516NA airborne on 3/30/13. The plane flew very well with
> no problems. Flew for about 45 minutes with two takeoffs and landings
> at different airports.
>
>
> Although its airworthy its is still not "finished"
>
> Thanks to everyone on this list for the help over the years and
> specially to David Maib for the transition training.
>
> You can see the takeoff and landing from my home airport 58M at the
> link below.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrkii7sgzw7x77w/hPy-wHKaBe
>
> Good luck to everyone yet to reach this stage and hope to meet some of
> my fellow RV10 fliers at flying events.
>
> Niko
>
> Nikolaos Napoli
> Date: 04/02/13
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
Way to go Niko!
Nice to see other multi-year builders finishing up.
Chris Lucas
N919AR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos
Napoli
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 7:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: First Flight
After almost 9 years with a slow build with a few years sabatical in
there I got N516NA airborne on 3/30/13. The plane flew very well with
no problems. Flew for about 45 minutes with two takeoffs and landings
at different airports.
Although its airworthy its is still not "finished"
Thanks to everyone on this list for the help over the years and
specially to David Maib for the transition training.
You can see the takeoff and landing from my home airport 58M at the link
below.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrkii7sgzw7x77w/hPy-wHKaBe
Good luck to everyone yet to reach this stage and hope to meet some of
my fellow RV10 fliers at flying events.
Niko
Nikolaos Napoli
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Congratulations! I remember the experience well!
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397729#397729
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> |
Fantastic Niko! I am happy to see you flying that airplane! Have fun and call if
you have any more questions.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Transition Trainer
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397730#397730
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> |
I never put in more that 7.5, and add when it gets to 6.5.... in the winter
run closer to the 6.5. summer closer to the 7.5.
Don Mc
--- On Wed, 4/3/13, David Leikam wrote:
From: David Leikam <arplnplt(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil level
Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 7:19 AM
9.
Dave Leikam
On Apr 2, 2013, at 2:35 PM, Michael Kraus wrote:
t>
>
> How many quarts of oil do you all typically run in your RV-10?- Anythin
g over 10 quarts for me typically blows out.
>
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 sold :-(
> RV-10 flying :-)
> KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
>
>
>
>
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> |
I now have a few hours flying with the integrated Dynon SkyView ADSB
receiver and can report it works as advertised. For those looking for an
ADSB antenna, this is what I'm using:
http://deltapopaviation.com/Delta_Pop_Aviation/ADS-B_Antenna.html
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ADSB antenna |
Carl,
Do you have any installation pictures? Where did you install it? Did you use
a doubler?
Ralph
Already have the same antenna - just trying to figure out where / how to install.
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Froehlich
Sent: Apr 3, 2013 9:36 AM
Subject: RV10-List: ADSB antenna
I now have a few hours flying with the integrated Dynon SkyView ADSB receiver and can report it works as advertised. For those looking for an ADSB antenna, this is what Im using: http://deltapopaviation.com/Delta_Pop_Aviation/ADS-B_Antenna.html Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com> |
Congrats!!
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Chris wrote:
> Way to go Niko! ****
>
> Nice to see other multi-year builders finishing up.****
>
> Chris Lucas****
>
> N919AR****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Nikolaos Napoli
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 7:35 AM
> *To:* Matronics
> *Subject:* RV10-List: First Flight****
>
> ** **
>
> After almost 9 years with a slow build with a few years sabatical in there
> I got N516NA airborne on 3/30/13. The plane flew very well with no
> problems. Flew for about 45 minutes with two takeoffs and landings at
> different airports.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Although its airworthy its is still not "finished"****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks to everyone on this list for the help over the years and specially
> to David Maib for the transition training. ****
>
> ** **
>
> You can see the takeoff and landing from my home airport 58M at the link
> below.****
>
> ** **
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrkii7sgzw7x77w/hPy-wHKaBe
>
> Good luck to everyone yet to reach this stage and hope to meet some of my
> fellow RV10 fliers at flying events.****
>
>
> Niko****
>
>
> Nikolaos Napoli****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> |
Congratulations. Great accomplishment. Don't forget to post on Van's.
Fly safe and have fun.
--------
See you OSH '13
Q/B - flying 3 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397853#397853
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
| From: | "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net> |
Congrats Niko! Looking forward to mine as well.
Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (interior & finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397864#397864
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roberto Brito" <lenabeto(at)uol.com.br> |
| Subject: | PP ZOT 04/04 2013 |
Hello Guys,
My new toy flew yesterday, almost 4 years after start.
Beautiful plane!!
Thank you Geoff Combs (Aerosportproducts)
Rgds.
Beto.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PP ZOT 04/04 2013 |
| From: | "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Congratulations on your flight. You have a gorgeous looking RV-10!
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397895#397895
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Geoff Combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com> |
| Subject: | PP ZOT 04/04 2013 |
Roberto Congrats.
The plane looks awesome. Love the paint scheme. Enjoy the ride. The RV-10
is a great airplane
Geoff
Geoff Combs
Aerosport Products
8090 howe industrial pkwy
canal winchester, ohio 43110
614.834.8659p
www.aerosportproducts.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Brito
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: PP ZOT 04/04 2013
Hello Guys,
My new toy flew yesterday, almost 4 years after start.
Beautiful plane!!
Thank you Geoff Combs (Aerosportproducts) Rgds.
Beto.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> |
| Subject: | PP ZOT 04/04 2013 |
Agreed! Well done Roberto!
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Combs
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: PP ZOT 04/04 2013
-->
Roberto Congrats.
The plane looks awesome. Love the paint scheme. Enjoy the ride. The RV-10 is a
great airplane
Geoff
Geoff Combs
Aerosport Products
8090 howe industrial pkwy
canal winchester, ohio 43110
614.834.8659p
www.aerosportproducts.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Brito
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: PP ZOT 04/04 2013
Hello Guys,
My new toy flew yesterday, almost 4 years after start.
Beautiful plane!!
Thank you Geoff Combs (Aerosportproducts) Rgds.
Beto.
-----
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________________________________________________________________________________
March 18, 2013 - April 05, 2013
RV10-Archive.digest.vol-jh