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June 10, 2018 - August 20, 2018

So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downhil l tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that ta nk dripped fuel, so I knew it=92s was not blocked. The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to movi ng it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as it=92s one les s thing to miss that could kill you. Here=92s the question, have any of you see siphoning across the andair fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a leaky v alve? Phil Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jun 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Fuel valve siphoning across?
If you leave a 90 degree throw Andair fuel valve in between the left and rig ht tank, it will (somewhat) cross connect the tanks. Carl > On Jun 10, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > I would have thought that to be physically impossible. > > Even with a tank selected, the fuel path is to the engine, not the other t ank. > > Keep us posted on what you find. > > Get Outlook for iOS > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matroni cs.com> on behalf of Phillip Perry > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:00:22 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Fuel valve siphoning across? > > > I had a first time experience this weekend. We flew into Tradewind airpor t (Amarillo) for the weekend and I parked the airplane on a ramp that was sl ightly sloped. > > Topped off the tanks, tied it down, and left it for a few days. > > We got ready to leave today and I popped open the uphill-most tank to insp ect fuel levels and a good amount of fuel had disappeared. My first thought was that it was stolen. > > The downhill tank was full to the rim and dripping fuel at the vent. Judg ing from the stains, it appears fuel was dripping out of the vent the entire weekend. > > So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downhi ll tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. > > I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that t ank dripped fuel, so I knew it=99s was not blocked. > > The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. > > I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to mov ing it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as it=99s o ne less thing to miss that could kill you. > > Here=99s the question, have any of you see siphoning across the anda ir fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a l eaky valve? > > Phil > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > ========== > Email Forum - > -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Corella <neilekins(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Fuel valve siphoning across?
Yes I believe I have also. Tank levels get different depending on how plane is parked. I always Shut valve off now. Neil Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2018, at 7:00 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > > I had a first time experience this weekend. We flew into Tradewind airport (Amarillo) for the weekend and I parked the airplane on a ramp that was slightly sloped. > > Topped off the tanks, tied it down, and left it for a few days. > > We got ready to leave today and I popped open the uphill-most tank to inspect fuel levels and a good amount of fuel had disappeared. My first thought was that it was stolen. > > The downhill tank was full to the rim and dripping fuel at the vent. Judging from the stains, it appears fuel was dripping out of the vent the entire weekend. > > So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downhill tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. > > I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that tank dripped fuel, so I knew its was not blocked. > > The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. > > I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to moving it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as its one less thing to miss that could kill you. > > Heres the question, have any of you see siphoning across the andair fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a leaky valve? > > Phil > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Fuel valve siphoning across?
This one was in the detent, but I highly suspect it was leaking between the p orts in the valve body housing. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Carl Froehlich w rote: > > If you leave a 90 degree throw Andair fuel valve in between the left and r ight tank, it will (somewhat) cross connect the tanks. > > Carl > >> On Jun 10, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: >> >> I would have thought that to be physically impossible. >> >> Even with a tank selected, the fuel path is to the engine, not the other t ank. >> >> Keep us posted on what you find. >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com> on behalf of Phillip Perry >> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:00:22 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel valve siphoning across? >> >> >> I had a first time experience this weekend. We flew into Tradewind airpo rt (Amarillo) for the weekend and I parked the airplane on a ramp that was s lightly sloped. >> >> Topped off the tanks, tied it down, and left it for a few days. >> >> We got ready to leave today and I popped open the uphill-most tank to ins pect fuel levels and a good amount of fuel had disappeared. My first though t was that it was stolen. >> >> The downhill tank was full to the rim and dripping fuel at the vent. Jud ging from the stains, it appears fuel was dripping out of the vent the entir e weekend. >> >> So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downh ill tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. >> >> I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that t ank dripped fuel, so I knew it=99s was not blocked. >> >> The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. >> >> I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to mo ving it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as it=99s o ne less thing to miss that could kill you. >> >> Here=99s the question, have any of you see siphoning across the and air fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a l eaky valve? >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> ========== >> Email Forum - >> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ums.matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel valve siphoning across?
Date: Jun 11, 2018
Was it hot outside? I live in Florida and this happens to me often. The plane is red and black, fuel in the tank gets hot, expands and just drips out the vents. Lenny > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:11 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > This one was in the detent, but I highly suspect it was leaking between the ports in the valve body housing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > >> If you leave a 90 degree throw Andair fuel valve in between the left and right tank, it will (somewhat) cross connect the tanks. >> >> Carl >> >> On Jun 10, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: >> >>> I would have thought that to be physically impossible. >>> >>> Even with a tank selected, the fuel path is to the engine, not the other tank. >>> >>> Keep us posted on what you find. >>> >>> Get Outlook for iOS >>> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Phillip Perry >>> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:00:22 PM >>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >>> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel valve siphoning across? >>> >>> >>> I had a first time experience this weekend. We flew into Tradewind airport (Amarillo) for the weekend and I parked the airplane on a ramp that was slightly sloped. >>> >>> Topped off the tanks, tied it down, and left it for a few days. >>> >>> We got ready to leave today and I popped open the uphill-most tank to inspect fuel levels and a good amount of fuel had disappeared. My first thought was that it was stolen. >>> >>> The downhill tank was full to the rim and dripping fuel at the vent. Judging from the stains, it appears fuel was dripping out of the vent the entire weekend. >>> >>> So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downhill tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. >>> >>> I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that tank dripped fuel, so I knew its was not blocked. >>> >>> The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. >>> >>> I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to moving it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as its one less thing to miss that could kill you. >>> >>> Heres the question, have any of you see siphoning across the andair fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a leaky valve? >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> ========== >>> Email Forum - >>> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >>> ========== >>> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >>> ums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >>> matronics.com >>> ========== >>> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >>> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Corella <neilekins(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2018
Subject: Re: Fuel valve siphoning across?
Im in Florida also. Yes it happens to me to. I thought I was crazy. Couldnt figure how that can work. My fuel pulls from the side I want when on left or right. But it will go to other side while sitting in hot hangar. Im in Florida also Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:32 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote: > > > Was it hot outside? I live in Florida and this happens to me often. The plane is red and black, fuel in the tank gets hot, expands and just drips out the vents. > > Lenny > > >> On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:11 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: >> >> This one was in the detent, but I highly suspect it was leaking between the ports in the valve body housing. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: >>> >>> If you leave a 90 degree throw Andair fuel valve in between the left and right tank, it will (somewhat) cross connect the tanks. >>> >>> Carl >>> >>>> On Jun 10, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: >>>> >>>> I would have thought that to be physically impossible. >>>> >>>> Even with a tank selected, the fuel path is to the engine, not the other tank. >>>> >>>> Keep us posted on what you find. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for iOS >>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Phillip Perry >>>> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:00:22 PM >>>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >>>> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel valve siphoning across? >>>> >>>> >>>> I had a first time experience this weekend. We flew into Tradewind airport (Amarillo) for the weekend and I parked the airplane on a ramp that was slightly sloped. >>>> >>>> Topped off the tanks, tied it down, and left it for a few days. >>>> >>>> We got ready to leave today and I popped open the uphill-most tank to inspect fuel levels and a good amount of fuel had disappeared. My first thought was that it was stolen. >>>> >>>> The downhill tank was full to the rim and dripping fuel at the vent. Judging from the stains, it appears fuel was dripping out of the vent the entire weekend. >>>> >>>> So, apparently I was cross feeding fuel from the uphill tank to the downhill tank, then from the downhill tank out the vent line to the ground. >>>> >>>> I topped off the uphill tank with 2.8 gal. When full, the vent on that tank dripped fuel, so I knew its was not blocked. >>>> >>>> The only path would be leakage inside the andair fuel valve body. >>>> >>>> I have always left the fuel valve on the last tank used, as opposed to moving it to the off position. It just seems safer that way as its one less thing to miss that could kill you. >>>> >>>> Heres the question, have any of you see siphoning across the andair fuel selector valve in the -10? Is that normal or am I dealing with a leaky valve? >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> ========== >>>> Email Forum - >>>> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >>>> ========== >>>> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >>>> ums.matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >>>> matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >>>> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> ========== > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spiral Wrap
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jun 14, 2018
Hi Does anyone have a source / spec for heat resistant spiral wrap. I'd like to use some on the top of my engine so I don't want to use something that would melt. Also, does anyone know how hot it get on top of the engine. I have found some spiral wrap that is good to 160c but am unsure if that will survive -especially after shut down. Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480898#480898 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Subject: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
Date: Jun 14, 2018
Hi everyone. I've had my RV-10 flying for about a year and a half now. Everything's working fine except one issue - I periodically get low fuel pressure warnings when just on the engine pump and haven't been able to isolate the problem. My setup is pretty stock - a factory new Lycoming IO-540 D4A5 through Van's with their pre-installed engine fuel pump, electric fuel pump assembly in the tunnel as per Van's instructions, fuel plumbing as per Van's instructions, etc. The only "deviation" from plans was that I had to install wing root gascolators as per Canada's requirements. My fuel totalizer is in the tunnel also as per instructions, though I realize now that's a bad location in that it tends to over-read by 50% or more when the electric boost pump is on. Not the end of the world since it's only an issue when the electrical boost pump is on (which isn't really that much) and I'd rather it read pessimistically instead of optimistically anyway. Maybe one day I'll relocate it, but I mention it here in case someone thinks it's relevant to my real problem. And the real problem is this - normally in cruise above 10000', I have fuel pressure readings around 19-21 psi. But periodically (and unpredictably) sometimes the fuel pressure will plummet - I've seen it get as low as 10 psi before climbing back up again. Originally, as soon as it would start dropping I'd turn on the electric boost pump but as it's happened more and more often and I've become more brave, I've held off at least a few seconds and so far it's always recovered before the engine started stumbling. I've never seen this happen with the boost pump on - just when the engine pump is working on its own. Though as I said, I don't normally fly with the boost pump on, so I obviously have less data with the boost pump on. What's particularly interesting is that it only seems to happen at higher altitudes. Above 10000' or so, I can count on it happening at least once an hour - at 13000', it sometimes happens every 10 or 15 minutes (though sometimes it doesn't happen at all either for an hour). At 9500', I've seen it happen only rarely, and I don't recall it ever occurring at 8500' or below. When it drops, it tends to fall over the course of about 5-10 seconds and then climb back up over 5-10 seconds. The whole event is over with within 15-20 seconds, and doesn't seem to "linger" at low PSI. I'm not sure if this is "real" or an artifact of sensor filtering of the EFIS. It isn't specific to when the engine is particularly hot - I always climb with the boost pump on, so when the engine is running hotter I never see the issue. This happens after I've been flying around at cruise power settings at altitude, often with a below freezing outside temperature and CHTs in the 310-350 range, and usually lean of peak burning in the neighbourhood of 10 gph. I have a blast tube aimed towards the fuel pump (though not a full shroud). I've even tried removing my gascolator screens in case they were potentially restricting fuel flow. It's been suggested that perhaps my fuel pressure sensor is having issues. I could certainly change it out, but since I haven't seen an issue with the electric boost pump on, and since it only seems to happen at altitude, I would expect if it was a sensor issue neither of these two factors would have an effect. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? I have tons of engine sensor data logged from the EFIS that I could send if helpful. I'm a bit apprehensive of changing out the fuel pump (in that I haven't done so before and would want to ensure that a new one is installed correctly so I don't damage anything). Has anyone done that before and could offer any advice? On the other hand, I've lived with this one issue for long enough and as it's the one thing I'm not completely happy with, I would like to try and finally resolve it so I can better trust things. Thanks for any advice! Dan --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
Hi Dan, =46rom a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is pos itive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo the engi ne will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talked about E ngine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, =9CThe Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump.=9D Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What type o f boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very hot weather. That is am bient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by running the boost pump until a t altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. Cheers John MacCallum VH-DUU > On 15 Jun 2018, at 09:45, Dan Charrois wrote: > > > Hi everyone. I've had my RV-10 flying for about a year and a half now. E verything's working fine except one issue - I periodically get low fuel pres sure warnings when just on the engine pump and haven't been able to isolate t he problem. > > My setup is pretty stock - a factory new Lycoming IO-540 D4A5 through Van' s with their pre-installed engine fuel pump, electric fuel pump assembly in t he tunnel as per Van's instructions, fuel plumbing as per Van's instructions , etc. The only "deviation" from plans was that I had to install wing root g ascolators as per Canada's requirements. > > My fuel totalizer is in the tunnel also as per instructions, though I real ize now that's a bad location in that it tends to over-read by 50% or more w hen the electric boost pump is on. Not the end of the world since it's only an issue when the electrical boost pump is on (which isn't really that much ) and I'd rather it read pessimistically instead of optimistically anyway. M aybe one day I'll relocate it, but I mention it here in case someone thinks i t's relevant to my real problem. > > And the real problem is this - normally in cruise above 10000', I have fue l pressure readings around 19-21 psi. But periodically (and unpredictably) s ometimes the fuel pressure will plummet - I've seen it get as low as 10 psi b efore climbing back up again. Originally, as soon as it would start droppin g I'd turn on the electric boost pump but as it's happened more and more oft en and I've become more brave, I've held off at least a few seconds and so f ar it's always recovered before the engine started stumbling. > > I've never seen this happen with the boost pump on - just when the engine p ump is working on its own. Though as I said, I don't normally fly with the b oost pump on, so I obviously have less data with the boost pump on. > > What's particularly interesting is that it only seems to happen at higher a ltitudes. Above 10000' or so, I can count on it happening at least once an h our - at 13000', it sometimes happens every 10 or 15 minutes (though sometim es it doesn't happen at all either for an hour). At 9500', I've seen it hap pen only rarely, and I don't recall it ever occurring at 8500' or below. > > When it drops, it tends to fall over the course of about 5-10 seconds and t hen climb back up over 5-10 seconds. The whole event is over with within 15 -20 seconds, and doesn't seem to "linger" at low PSI. I'm not sure if this i s "real" or an artifact of sensor filtering of the EFIS. > > It isn't specific to when the engine is particularly hot - I always climb w ith the boost pump on, so when the engine is running hotter I never see the i ssue. This happens after I've been flying around at cruise power settings a t altitude, often with a below freezing outside temperature and CHTs in the 3 10-350 range, and usually lean of peak burning in the neighbourhood of 10 gp h. > > I have a blast tube aimed towards the fuel pump (though not a full shroud) . I've even tried removing my gascolator screens in case they were potentia lly restricting fuel flow. > > It's been suggested that perhaps my fuel pressure sensor is having issues. I could certainly change it out, but since I haven't seen an issue with th e electric boost pump on, and since it only seems to happen at altitude, I w ould expect if it was a sensor issue neither of these two factors would have an effect. > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? I have tons of engine se nsor data logged from the EFIS that I could send if helpful. > > I'm a bit apprehensive of changing out the fuel pump (in that I haven't do ne so before and would want to ensure that a new one is installed correctly s o I don't damage anything). Has anyone done that before and could offer any advice? On the other hand, I've lived with this one issue for long enough a nd as it's the one thing I'm not completely happy with, I would like to try a nd finally resolve it so I can better trust things. > > Thanks for any advice! > > Dan > --- > Dan Charrois > President, Syzygy Research & Technology > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2018
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
It is not that simple. What pressure you are talking about depends on where in the system you are looking, what brand system you have, etc. In general, the Bendix/Precision style injection system needs about 14-15 psi minimum at the input to the fuel servo. Pressures going to the fuel divider will be lower, and the flow divider shuts down flow at around 4-5 psi to prevent run-on at idle cutoff. The amount of pressure at the inlet is important to have the system function correctly, and to get good atomization at the nozzles. While the engine may run at 9 psi, I'd not be at all comfortable to see below 15. I don't know what pressures the AFS system needs. The Continental system works quite differently and needs very steady and precise pressures at the inlet that have to be checked annually. Kelly Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:06 PM, John MacCallum wrote: > Hi Dan, > From a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is > positive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo th e > engine will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talked > about Engine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, =9CThe > Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump.=9D > > Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What > type of boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the > tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow > readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very hot > weather. That is ambient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by running > the boost pump until at altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. > > Cheers John MacCallum > VH-DUU > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
Date: Jun 14, 2018
My Lycoming came with an AVStar AVX-5VA1 injector. I'm not sure what "style" of injection that implies (I'm very admittedly not an engine expert). Though in the IO-540 series operator's manual I got with the engine, on page 3-9 they mention a pressure range for the inlet to the fuel injector of 14-45 psi, so I've considered that 14 is a minimum - though I'm much more comfortable when it is closer to 20. When it gets down to less than 14, I get very nervous. Though I've seen it down to 10 psi briefly while the engine kept running, it sure doesn't give me the warm fuzzies when it does that. I have the ES Airflow pump and red cube Van's supplied installed pretty much exactly as described in section 37, other than the exception that I have an Andair fuel valve installed instead of the Van's supplied one. Considering that I've always figured the transducer would have a simple vane system to measure fuel flow, I have to admit to not really understanding how it could be so easily confused by the boost pump upstream (no matter how "pulse-y" it may be)... but it is. Dan > On 2018-Jun-14, at 8:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > It is not that simple. What pressure you are talking about depends on where in the system you are looking, what brand system you have, etc. > In general, the Bendix/Precision style injection system needs about 14-15 psi minimum at the input to the fuel servo. Pressures going to the fuel divider will be lower, and the flow divider shuts down flow at around 4-5 psi to prevent run-on at idle cutoff. The amount of pressure at the inlet is important to have the system function correctly, and to get good atomization at the nozzles. While the engine may run at 9 psi, I'd not be at all comfortable to see below 15. > I don't know what pressures the AFS system needs. The Continental system works quite differently and needs very steady and precise pressures at the inlet that have to be checked annually. > Kelly > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:06 PM, John MacCallum wrote: > Hi Dan, > From a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is positive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo the engine will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talked about Engine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, The Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump. > > Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What type of boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very hot weather. That is ambient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by running the boost pump until at altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. > > Cheers John MacCallum > VH-DUU > > > > > --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2018
The one aspect I don't like about the design of the fuel lines in the RV-10 is that they go uphill to the fuel selector, then down to the filter and pump, then back uphill to the firewall and mechanical pump. I believe this forces the system to develop sufficient negative pressure at the mechanical pump to overcome the loop in the fuel system. The Andair with an extension can be mounted fairly low, but is limited by tubing bend radius and lines coming out the bottom. I don't think your fuel cube location should affect the total flow. However the location upstream of the mechanical pump will affect responsiveness. On 6/14/2018 10:31 PM, Dan Charrois wrote: > > My Lycoming came with an AVStar AVX-5VA1 injector. I'm not sure what "style" of injection that implies (I'm very admittedly not an engine expert). Though in the IO-540 series operator's manual I got with the engine, on page 3-9 they mention a pressure range for the inlet to the fuel injector of 14-45 psi, so I've considered that 14 is a minimum - though I'm much more comfortable when it is closer to 20. When it gets down to less than 14, I get very nervous. Though I've seen it down to 10 psi briefly while the engine kept running, it sure doesn't give me the warm fuzzies when it does that. > > I have the ES Airflow pump and red cube Van's supplied installed pretty much exactly as described in section 37, other than the exception that I have an Andair fuel valve installed instead of the Van's supplied one. Considering that I've always figured the transducer would have a simple vane system to measure fuel flow, I have to admit to not really understanding how it could be so easily confused by the boost pump upstream (no matter how "pulse-y" it may be)... but it is. > > Dan > >> On 2018-Jun-14, at 8:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> It is not that simple. What pressure you are talking about depends on where in the system you are looking, what brand system you have, etc. >> In general, the Bendix/Precision style injection system needs about 14-15 psi minimum at the input to the fuel servo. Pressures going to the fuel divider will be lower, and the flow divider shuts down flow at around 4-5 psi to prevent run-on at idle cutoff. The amount of pressure at the inlet is important to have the system function correctly, and to get good atomization at the nozzles. While the engine may run at 9 psi, I'd not be at all comfortable to see below 15. >> I don't know what pressures the AFS system needs. The Continental system works quite differently and needs very steady and precise pressures at the inlet that have to be checked annually. >> Kelly >> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame >> >> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:06 PM, John MacCallum wrote: >> Hi Dan, >> From a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is positive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo the engine will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talked about Engine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, The Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump. >> >> Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What type of boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very hot weather. That is ambient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by running the boost pump until at altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. >> >> Cheers John MacCallum >> VH-DUU >> >> >> >> >> > > > > --- > Dan Charrois > President, Syzygy Research & Technology > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jun 14, 2018
My only comment has to do with the totalizer showing a 50% error with the boost pump on. I too have a stock setup, but mine shows a 4% error with the electric pump on. I seem to recall the electric pump has a by-pass with a check valve. Id make sure there are no issues around that pump and its plumbing. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480906#480906 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
From: "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 15, 2018
I would look at the pressure sending unit. You did not mention what you were using for engine data. Both Garmin and Dynon supply a Kavlico fuel pressure sending unit that has the vent internal to the connector housing. I had an issue with fuel pressure dropping in the climb and never returning to normal. It turns out that the silicone gasket inside the connector, was preventing the pressure from equalizing. Removing that gasket eliminated the problem. The final solution was drilling a #50 hole to allow the pressure to equalize. This does not sound like your issue since the pressure seems to be stable for some period of time and then drop, but it's worth mentioning. -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480908#480908 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
Date: Jun 15, 2018
Hi Bill. I have a Kavlico fuel pressure sending unit as well - I'll be sure to have a good look at it. I'll probably try replacing the sensor first anyway - it's an easier and likely less expensive thing to try before tackling the fuel pump itself. Dan > On 2018-Jun-15, at 6:27 AM, bill.peyton wrote: > > > I would look at the pressure sending unit. You did not mention what you were using for engine data. Both Garmin and Dynon supply a Kavlico fuel pressure sending unit that has the vent internal to the connector housing. I had an issue with fuel pressure dropping in the climb and never returning to normal. It turns out that the silicone gasket inside the connector, was preventing the pressure from equalizing. Removing that gasket eliminated the problem. The final solution was drilling a #50 hole to allow the pressure to equalize. > This does not sound like your issue since the pressure seems to be stable for some period of time and then drop, but it's worth mentioning. > > -------- > Bill > WA0SYV > Aviation Partners, LLC > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480908#480908 > > > > > > > > > --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
From: "Lenny Iszak" <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2018
Dan, Does the pressure drop affect the EGTs, RPM or fuel flow readings at all? If it does, it's definitely not a pressure sensor problem. -------- Lenny Iszak Palm City, FL 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 400 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480913#480913 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Jun 16, 2018
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
That=99s correct there does need to be a differential pressure from t he inlet to outlet of the FI Servo. The point that Tim Henderson makes in th e Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump Video is that down to about 9 psi b eing delivered to the Servo at High fuel flows the engine will still run fin e. High fuel flows like take off power and around 94 ltrs an hour. At cruise power lean of peak and around 46 ltrs per hour I would expect to see fuel p ressure between 95 - 172 kpa (14-25 psi). As for take off power I always ru n the boost pump so it=99s always up around 170 kpa. Cheers John MacCallum > On 15 Jun 2018, at 12:22, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > It is not that simple. What pressure you are talking about depends on wher e in the system you are looking, what brand system you have, etc. > In general, the Bendix/Precision style injection system needs about 14-15 p si minimum at the input to the fuel servo. Pressures going to the fuel divid er will be lower, and the flow divider shuts down flow at around 4-5 psi to p revent run-on at idle cutoff. The amount of pressure at the inlet is importa nt to have the system function correctly, and to get good atomization at the nozzles. While the engine may run at 9 psi, I'd not be at all comfortable t o see below 15. > I don't know what pressures the AFS system needs. The Continental system w orks quite differently and needs very steady and precise pressures at the in let that have to be checked annually. > Kelly > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > >> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:06 PM, John MacCallum wrote: >> Hi Dan, >> =46rom a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is p ositive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo the en gine will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talked abou t Engine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, =9C The Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump.=9D >> >> Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What ty pe of boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very hot weather. That is ambient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by running the boost pump unt il at altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. >> >> Cheers John MacCallum >> VH-DUU >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Ongoing fuel pressure problems
IIRC the minimum fuel spec for the Bendix/Precision RSA 5 system is around 14 psi. I would be very uncomfortable with one showing 9-10, high fuel flow or not. Assuming there isn't a sensor problem giving a false reading. I see 24-25 psi on takeoff without boost, 26 with it, and have the Dynon\Kavlico sensor. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 5:06 PM, John MacCallum wrote: > That=99s correct there does need to be a differential pressure fro m the > inlet to outlet of the FI Servo. The point that Tim Henderson makes in th e > Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump Video is that down to about 9 psi > being delivered to the Servo at High fuel flows the engine will still run > fine. High fuel flows like take off power and around 94 ltrs an hour. At > cruise power lean of peak and around 46 ltrs per hour I would expect to s ee > fuel pressure between 95 - 172 kpa (14-25 psi). As for take off power I > always run the boost pump so it=99s always up around 170 kpa. > > Cheers John MacCallum > > On 15 Jun 2018, at 12:22, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > It is not that simple. What pressure you are talking about depends on > where in the system you are looking, what brand system you have, etc. > In general, the Bendix/Precision style injection system needs about 14-15 > psi minimum at the input to the fuel servo. Pressures going to the fuel > divider will be lower, and the flow divider shuts down flow at around 4-5 > psi to prevent run-on at idle cutoff. The amount of pressure at the inlet > is important to have the system function correctly, and to get good > atomization at the nozzles. While the engine may run at 9 psi, I'd not be > at all comfortable to see below 15. > I don't know what pressures the AFS system needs. The Continental system > works quite differently and needs very steady and precise pressures at th e > inlet that have to be checked annually. > Kelly > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:06 PM, John MacCallum < > john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com> wrote: > >> Hi Dan, >> From a Video I watched about Fuel Injected engines as long as there is >> positive pressure above about 5 PSI at high fuel flows to the FI Servo t he >> engine will run fine. The Video was from Tempest Aero parts and it talke d >> about Engine driven Fuel Pumps and Boost Pumps. The Video was Titled, =9CThe >> Amazing Ubiquitous Diaphragm Fuel Pump.=9D >> >> Anyway the Video said nothing to worry about down to about 9 psi. What >> type of boost pump do you have? My Andair Electric boost pump is in the >> tunnel and so is the red cube. I have no issues with inaccurate flow >> readings but I do occasionally get fuel pressure fluctuations in very ho t >> weather. That is ambient ground temps above 35 C. I solve this by runnin g >> the boost pump until at altitude and the OAT has dropped below 30 C. >> >> Cheers John MacCallum >> VH-DUU >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2018
Subject: Acronyms
A while back someone (was it Myron?) posted a creative writing with about 1.6 million aviation acronyms in it. I swear I saved it but now that I have someone I want to show it to, I cant locate it. If anyone has it, can you please re-post it? Thanks a million! Tim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spinner Cracks
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jun 20, 2018
We are doing our condition inspection and found some very faint cracks around the bolts that pass through the backplate, S 602B. In fact they are so faint, that we had to clean off the primer and do a fingernail test. Anybody else had this? John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481042#481042 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 20, 2018
Hey John, Curious, are the cracks in the fiberglass of the spinner or the aluminum backing plate. Pics? - Lew -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 Fly off completed ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481043#481043 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jun 20, 2018
The fiberglass is fine - it's the aluminum backing plate. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481046#481046 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
Date: Jun 20, 2018
I haven't seen that, but since it's the aluminum, I would suspect vibration/out of balance. Obviously, replace the plate. But before you do, maybe slowly run it up while feeling the dash for vibration? Get someone to electronically balance your prop on the plane to check it out after it's been replaced? We've got a guy in our EAA chapter here in Greenville, SC that gives a group rate for balancing if several want to do it at one sitting. Before mounting the spinner, I put it on a record turntable and it checked out very true. Keep posting your research results. Later, - Lew -----Original Message----- From: johngoodman Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:50 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Spinner Cracks The fiberglass is fine - it's the aluminum backing plate. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481046#481046 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Skinner <robskinner(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 21, 2018
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
Could be that the bolt holes were not de-burred correctly and micro cracks turned into something more! Sent from my Robert's iPad > On Jun 20, 2018, at 2:52 PM, johngoodman wrote: > > > We are doing our condition inspection and found some very faint cracks around the bolts that pass through the backplate, S 602B. In fact they are so faint, that we had to clean off the primer and do a fingernail test. Anybody else had this? > > John > > -------- > #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481042#481042 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Run-away trim question
I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. What would I do if it happened? I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not happen. This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happen on any aircraft. That being said: (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if so what was the outcome? (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling electronics. Jim Combs N312F (1000+ hours) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. Phil On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. > > What would I do if it happened? > > I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. > I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces > on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. > Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it > happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping > the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not > happen. > > This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happen > on any aircraft. > > That being said: > > (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if > so what was the outcome? > > (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit > that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent > the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the > runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling > electronics. > > Jim Combs > N312F (1000+ hours) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Thanks, I will check that out. Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry wrote: > You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of > run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. > > 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. > Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate the > servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the > servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. > > 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a short > in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows > you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring > the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the > buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. > > 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo at > full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more > reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. > > Phil > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > >> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >> >> What would I do if it happened? >> >> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. >> I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces >> on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. >> Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it >> happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping >> the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not >> happen. >> >> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could >> happen on any aircraft. >> >> That being said: >> >> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if >> so what was the outcome? >> >> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit >> that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent >> the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the >> runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling >> electronics. >> >> Jim Combs >> N312F (1000+ hours) >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Well, I had a complete elevator trim failure, not runaway, and fortunately I discovered I had the problem shortly after lift-off, so did not allow speed to get much above 120. Due to some dufus builder error, the cotter pin for the bellcrank bolt on the trim assembly fell out, the nut backed off, and the bolt worked its way out, so the bellcrank did not have any leverage and helped nothing. The resulting trim was somewhere around landing configuration nose up. The stick force was under 10 lbs., easy to hold with one hand for the 15 min flight I had back to home drome. Yes, I suppose you could have runaway trim, that the surprise factor would be main event. Between stick force and throttle, you can control the force involved. No, I would not want to be IFR. However, I found that in my case, my Dynon autopilot had no trouble holding the airplane...although I chose not to do that for more than long enough to see if it could. I didn't want to risk failure of the shear pin, and stress the servo. Yes, I fixed the problem, with just the difficulty of getting my old, creaky body back in the tail cone and reassembling parts that I couldn't get a good view. Now to go punish that doofus builder.............. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. > > What would I do if it happened? > > I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. > I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces > on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. > Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it > happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping > the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not > happen. > > This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happen > on any aircraft. > > That being said: > > (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if > so what was the outcome? > > (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit > that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent > the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the > runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling > electronics. > > Jim Combs > N312F (1000+ hours) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Run-away trim question
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Also realize that if you=99re using either Garmin or Dynon=99s integrated autopilots with the Auto Trim wired through their respective A/P=99s, you also get trim motor timing limits (which in effect is the same function) along with the trim speed scheduling. The Safety Trim is an excellent box as a standalone device, but becomes redundant if you have either the Garmin or Dynon integrated A/P (with the respective controllers). Just my 2 cents as usual. Cheers, Stein From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of Jim Combs Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:03 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question Thanks, I will check that out. Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote: You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. Phil On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs > wrote: I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. What would I do if it happened? I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not happen. This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happen on any aircraft. That being said: (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if so what was the outcome? (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling electronics. Jim Combs N312F (1000+ hours) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
So I looked into the TCW solution and I still consider this to be a single point of failure. Note: I am NOT in any way bashing the TCW solution. It still has power supplied to it and can run the the trim servo IF IT FAILED. But it does have a separate power switch along with the airspeed speed switch. Both of which I like, so I will be installing that in the -10. I have been driving my trim through a DPDT On - Off - On momentary switch and have had no issues with it. Having the speed select will be a nice addition. I also like the TCW Flap system. So I think some upgrades are in order for the -10. Thanks, Jim C So Kelly, does the IBM 360 heat the house too? Just wondering. On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:29 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > Well, I had a complete elevator trim failure, not runaway, and fortunately > I discovered I had the problem shortly after lift-off, so did not allow > speed to get much above 120. > Due to some dufus builder error, the cotter pin for the bellcrank bolt on > the trim assembly fell out, the nut backed off, and the bolt worked its way > out, so the bellcrank did not have any leverage and helped nothing. The > resulting trim was somewhere around landing configuration nose up. The > stick force was under 10 lbs., easy to hold with one hand for the 15 min > flight I had back to home drome. Yes, I suppose you could have runaway > trim, that the surprise factor would be main event. Between stick force and > throttle, you can control the force involved. > No, I would not want to be IFR. However, I found that in my case, my > Dynon autopilot had no trouble holding the airplane...although I chose not > to do that for more than long enough to see if it could. I didn't want to > risk failure of the shear pin, and stress the servo. > Yes, I fixed the problem, with just the difficulty of getting my old, > creaky body back in the tail cone and reassembling parts that I couldn't > get a good view. Now to go punish that doofus builder.............. > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > >> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >> >> What would I do if it happened? >> >> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. >> I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces >> on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. >> Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it >> happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping >> the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not >> happen. >> >> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could >> happen on any aircraft. >> >> That being said: >> >> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if >> so what was the outcome? >> >> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit >> that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent >> the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the >> runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling >> electronics. >> >> Jim Combs >> N312F (1000+ hours) >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
I have the Advanced Flight System and A/P. No A/P Trim. Pondering the ADSB upgrade but that is a different thread. Thanks, Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Stein Bruch wrote: > Also realize that if you=99re using either Garmin or Dynon=99 s integrated > autopilots with the Auto Trim wired through their respective A/P=99 s, you > also get trim motor timing limits (which in effect is the same function) > along with the trim speed scheduling. The Safety Trim is an excellent bo x > as a standalone device, but becomes redundant if you have either the Garm in > or Dynon integrated A/P (with the respective controllers). > > > Just my 2 cents as usual. > > > Cheers, > > Stein > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Jim Combs > *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2018 9:03 AM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question > > > Thanks, I will check that out. > > > Jim C > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote: > > You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of > run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. > > > 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. > Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate th e > servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the > servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. > > > 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a shor t > in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows > you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to brin g > the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the > buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. > > > 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo a t > full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more > reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. > > > Phil > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > > I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. > > > What would I do if it happened? > > > I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. > I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces > on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft . > Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it > happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping > the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not > happen. > > > This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happe n > on any aircraft. > > > That being said: > > > (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if > so what was the outcome? > > > (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit > that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) preve nt > the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to th e > runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlli ng > electronics. > > > Jim Combs > > N312F (1000+ hours) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Date: Jun 22, 2018
If you add the Dynon module, you can get the trim control as long as you ha ve the Dynon servos. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Jim Combs Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 10:51:48 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question I have the Advanced Flight System and A/P. No A/P Trim. Pondering the ADSB upgrade but that is a different thread. Thanks, Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Stein Bruch > wrote: Also realize that if you=92re using either Garmin or Dynon=92s integrated a utopilots with the Auto Trim wired through their respective A/P=92s, you al so get trim motor timing limits (which in effect is the same function) alon g with the trim speed scheduling. The Safety Trim is an excellent box as a standalone device, but becomes redundant if you have either the Garmin or Dynon integrated A/P (with the respective controllers). Just my 2 cents as usual. Cheers, Stein From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma tronics.com> > On Behalf Of Jim Combs Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:03 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question Thanks, I will check that out. Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote: You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of ru n away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the ser vo to full travel and your trim to full defection. 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows yo u to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring th e servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the bus s. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more rea sonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. Phil On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs > wrote: I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. What would I do if it happened? I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. R ealizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it happ ened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping the ru naway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not happen. This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happen on any aircraft. That being said: (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if so what was the outcome? (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circuit t hat is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prevent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling electronics. Jim Combs N312F (1000+ hours) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Hmm, some Dynon things are compatible, don't know if their autopilot control panel is among those things. Worth asking. On 6/22/2018 7:51 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > I have the Advanced Flight System and A/P. No A/P Trim. > > Pondering the ADSB upgrade but that is a different thread. > > Thanks, Jim C > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Stein Bruch > wrote: > > Also realize that if youre using either Garmin or Dynons > integrated autopilots with the Auto Trim wired through their > respective A/Ps, you also get trim motor timing limits (which in > effect is the same function) along with the trim speed scheduling. > The Safety Trim is an excellent box as a standalone device, but > becomes redundant if you have either the Garmin or Dynon integrated > A/P (with the respective controllers).____ > > __ __ > > Just my 2 cents as usual.____ > > __ __ > > Cheers,____ > > Stein____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > *On Behalf Of *Jim Combs > *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2018 9:03 AM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question____ > > __ __ > > Thanks, I will check that out.____ > > __ __ > > Jim C____ > > __ __ > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote:____ > > You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the > issue of run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are > some basics.____ > > __ __ > > 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few > seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the > switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This > prevents a stuck switch to run the servo to full travel and your > trim to full defection.____ > > __ __ > > 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there > is a short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a > switch that allows you to reverse the travel of the servo > through a momentary switch to bring the servo back to its normal > spot; then it disconnects the servo from the buss. Thus locking > the servo in a more neutral position.____ > > __ __ > > 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive > your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down > to a slower and more reasonable speed when you're really > scooting through the air.____ > > __ __ > > Phil____ > > __ __ > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs > wrote:____ > > I was asked a question recently about runaway trim.____ > > __ __ > > What would I do if it happened?____ > > __ __ > > I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just > what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition > happens so fast and the forces on the stick quickly > overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. > Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot > and once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the > dominate focus item. Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse > or some other action would most likely not happen.____ > > __ __ > > This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. > It could happen on any aircraft.____ > > __ __ > > That being said:____ > > __ __ > > (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually > happening? if so what was the outcome? ____ > > __ __ > > (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the > trim circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim > motor that would (A) prevent the motor from running for an > extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway > condition. This would be downstream from the switch or > controlling electronics.____ > > __ __ > > Jim Combs____ > > N312F (1000+ hours) ____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
As requested, I took some photos today. We also pulled the assembly and found cracks at every bolt - on both sides. I've ordered new parts, but it's obvious that it was just a matter of time. I will attach one sample photo, they all look pretty much the same. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481105#481105 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/samplecrack1_171.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
You absolutely want trim speed control. The stock, full speed, is about right for low (takeoff, landing) speeds but runs way too fast at cruise. I have a Trio Pro autopilot. Not only does it auto-trim when engaged; you can use it to trim manually, too, when the servos are not engaged. It contains a programable with airspeed speed control, too. So my routine is to use the stick switch for takeoff/landing trim (full speed); I use the Trio knob for fine trim adjustments in cruise. I put no top hat on the copilot stick, to prevent accidental trim commands. Right seat pilots have to use a panel mounted rocker switch. I put both AP and trim CBs right in front of the pilot, marked with a colored line. How fast could I pull them, given no warning? I dont know. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481106#481106 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Date: Jun 22, 2018
It is..... I know several people that have it installed. Some features /functions may vary depending if you have Dynon servos versus Trutrak. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Kelly McMullen Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 11:08:28 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question Hmm, some Dynon things are compatible, don't know if their autopilot control panel is among those things. Worth asking. On 6/22/2018 7:51 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > I have the Advanced Flight System and A/P. No A/P Trim. > > Pondering the ADSB upgrade but that is a different thread. > > Thanks, Jim C > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Stein Bruch > wrote: > > Also realize that if you=92re using either Garmin or Dynon=92s > integrated autopilots with the Auto Trim wired through their > respective A/P=92s, you also get trim motor timing limits (which in > effect is the same function) along with the trim speed scheduling. > The Safety Trim is an excellent box as a standalone device, but > becomes redundant if you have either the Garmin or Dynon integrated > A/P (with the respective controllers).____ > > __ __ > > Just my 2 cents as usual.____ > > __ __ > > Cheers,____ > > Stein____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > *On Behalf Of *Jim Com bs > *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2018 9:03 AM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Run-away trim question____ > > __ __ > > Thanks, I will check that out.____ > > __ __ > > Jim C____ > > __ __ > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote:____ > > You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the > issue of run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are > some basics.____ > > __ __ > > 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few > seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the > switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This > prevents a stuck switch to run the servo to full travel and your > trim to full defection.____ > > __ __ > > 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there > is a short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a > switch that allows you to reverse the travel of the servo > through a momentary switch to bring the servo back to its normal > spot; then it disconnects the servo from the buss. Thus locking > the servo in a more neutral position.____ > > __ __ > > 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive > your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down > to a slower and more reasonable speed when you're really > scooting through the air.____ > > __ __ > > Phil____ > > __ __ > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs > wrote:____ > > I was asked a question recently about runaway trim.____ > > __ __ > > What would I do if it happened?____ > > __ __ > > I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just > what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition > happens so fast and the forces on the stick quickly > overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. > Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot > and once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the > dominate focus item. Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse > or some other action would most likely not happen.____ > > __ __ > > This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. > It could happen on any aircraft.____ > > __ __ > > That being said:____ > > __ __ > > (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually > happening? if so what was the outcome? ____ > > __ __ > > (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the > trim circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim > motor that would (A) prevent the motor from running for an > extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway > condition. This would be downstream from the switch or > controlling electronics.____ > > __ __ > > Jim Combs____ > > N312F (1000+ hours) ____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tcwtech <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Thanks to those that mentioned our Safety trim controller. One bit of tri via regarding the concept of single point failure. Even though our device i s =9Cone box=9D inside the unit there=99s actually three s eparate series circuits which would have to all fail to provide an uncommand ed operation of the servo. As a result after 10 years in the field we h ave had zero issues resulting in unwanted motion even in the face of a varie ty of builder mistakes and mis-applications. Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC 610-928-3420 > On Jun 22, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > > Thanks, I will check that out. > > Jim C > >> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry wro te: >> You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of r un away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. >> >> 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the ser vo to full travel and your trim to full defection. >> >> 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a shor t in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows y ou to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring th e servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the buss . Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. >> >> 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo a t full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more re asonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. >> >> Phil >> >>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: >>> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >>> >>> What would I do if it happened? >>> >>> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the forces o n the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. R ealizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it happe ned, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping the runa way by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not happen. >>> >>> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could happ en on any aircraft. >>> >>> That being said: >>> >>> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? if so what was the outcome? >>> >>> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circui t that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) preven t the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlling electronics. >>> >>> Jim Combs >>> N312F (1000+ hours) >>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Bob, Thanks for that bit of feedback. I am a retired electrical engineer. That bit of information should be shared on your website. I am planning or ordering that and the flap controller in the next few days . Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Tcwtech wrote: > Thanks to those that mentioned our Safety trim controller. One bit of > trivia regarding the concept of single point failure. Even though our > device is =9Cone box=9D inside the unit there=99s actua lly three separate series > circuits which would have to all fail to provide an uncommanded operation > of the servo. As a result after 10 years in the field we have had ze ro > issues resulting in unwanted motion even in the face of a variety of > builder mistakes and mis-applications. > > > Bob Newman > TCW Technologies, LLC > 610-928-3420 > > On Jun 22, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > > Thanks, I will check that out. > > Jim C > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry > wrote: > >> You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue of >> run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. >> >> 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few >> seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to >> activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switc h >> to run the servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. >> >> 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a >> short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that >> allows you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to >> bring the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo f rom >> the buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. >> >> 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo >> at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and mo re >> reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. >> >> Phil >> >> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote: >> >>> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >>> >>> What would I do if it happened? >>> >>> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what >>> happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast an d >>> the forces on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the >>> aircraft. Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and >>> once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. >>> Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most >>> likely not happen. >>> >>> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could >>> happen on any aircraft. >>> >>> That being said: >>> >>> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? i f >>> so what was the outcome? >>> >>> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim >>> circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) >>> prevent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the p ilot >>> to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or >>> controlling electronics. >>> >>> Jim Combs >>> N312F (1000+ hours) >>> >>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Hey Jim, on my RV10 site I have an old write-up from when I put in safety-Tr im. There may be more info there that you may want to check out also. I hav e mine set up with an airspeed switch and also a flap switch which I like ve ry much and did the same on my RV14 as I did the -10. You=99ll be happy with the trim controller and wiring is easier than t he relays you probably have now. Tim > On Jun 22, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Jim Combs wrote: > > Bob, Thanks for that bit of feedback. I am a retired electrical engineer . That bit of information should be shared on your website. > > I am planning or ordering that and the flap controller in the next few day s. > > Jim C > >> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Tcwtech wrote: >> Thanks to those that mentioned our Safety trim controller. One bit of t rivia regarding the concept of single point failure. Even though our devic e is =9Cone box=9D inside the unit there=99s actually thre e separate series circuits which would have to all fail to provide an uncomm anded operation of the servo. As a result after 10 years in the field w e have had zero issues resulting in unwanted motion even in the face of a va riety of builder mistakes and mis-applications. >> >> >> >> Bob Newman >> TCW Technologies, LLC >> 610-928-3420 >> >>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Jim Combs wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, I will check that out. >>> >>> Jim C >>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry w rote: >>>> You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue o f run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. >>>> >>>> 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few second s. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to activate t he servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck switch to run the s ervo to full travel and your trim to full defection. >>>> >>>> 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a sh ort in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that allows you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switch to bring t he servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from the bus s. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. >>>> >>>> 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and more r easonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrot e: >>>>> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >>>>> >>>>> What would I do if it happened? >>>>> >>>>> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what happen s. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast and the force s on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to control the aircraft. Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and once it ha ppened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. Stopping the r unaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most likely not happen. >>>>> >>>>> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could ha ppen on any aircraft. >>>>> >>>>> That being said: >>>>> >>>>> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? i f so what was the outcome? >>>>> >>>>> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim circ uit that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that would (A) prev ent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot to t he runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or controlli ng electronics. >>>>> >>>>> Jim Combs >>>>> N312F (1000+ hours) >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
I have a Vertical Power 200 in my RV-10, and it has runaway trim built in as well as trim speeds. Not sure if the VPX still has it. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481133#481133 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Date: Jun 23, 2018
It does. I have a VPX/Pro in my RV-10. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of johngoodman Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 7:49:59 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Run-away trim question I have a Vertical Power 200 in my RV-10, and it has runaway trim built in a s well as trim speeds. Not sure if the VPX still has it. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481133#481133 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
For what it=99s worth, I just have the Ray Allen system but with the r ates being high for faster airspeed and potential for runaway trim I put in a trim disconnect switch on the panel I can slap before it gets too bad. Not a s quick to respond as the systems in this thread, but cheap and effective. Marcus > On Jun 23, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > It does. I have a VPX/Pro in my RV-10. > > Get Outlook for iOS > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matroni cs.com> on behalf of johngoodman > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 7:49:59 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Re: Run-away trim question > > > I have a Vertical Power 200 in my RV-10, and it has runaway trim built in a s well as trim speeds. Not sure if the VPX still has it. > John > > -------- > #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481133#481133 > > > > > > > ========== > Email Forum - > -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ============= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
I have VPX. I used use its trim controller. I rewired since then to use the Dynon autopilot control panel's trim feature with auto-trim. Kelly 40866, 150 hrs in the air. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 5:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > It does. I have a VPX/Pro in my RV-10. > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com matronics.com> on behalf of johngoodman > *Sent:* Saturday, June 23, 2018 7:49:59 AM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: Re: Run-away trim question > > > I have a Vertical Power 200 in my RV-10, and it has runaway trim built in > as well as trim speeds. Not sure if the VPX still has it. > John > > -------- > #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481133#481133 > > > ========== > Email Forum - > -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
Sir Tim, Thanks! I did see that and read your write-up. I don't have a flaps up switch but will add one per your suggestion. I do have a flap position potentiometer that is used to show the flap position on the EFIS. Thanks, Jim C On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > Hey Jim, on my RV10 site I have an old write-up from when I put in > safety-Trim. There may be more info there that you may want to check out > also. I have mine set up with an airspeed switch and also a flap switch > which I like very much and did the same on my RV14 as I did the -10. > You=99ll be happy with the trim controller and wiring is easier tha n the > relays you probably have now. > Tim > > On Jun 22, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Jim Combs wrote: > > Bob, Thanks for that bit of feedback. I am a retired electrical > engineer. That bit of information should be shared on your website. > > I am planning or ordering that and the flap controller in the next few > days. > > Jim C > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Tcwtech wrote: > >> Thanks to those that mentioned our Safety trim controller. One bit of >> trivia regarding the concept of single point failure. Even though our >> device is =9Cone box=9D inside the unit there=99s actu ally three separate series >> circuits which would have to all fail to provide an uncommanded operatio n >> of the servo. As a result after 10 years in the field we have had z ero >> issues resulting in unwanted motion even in the face of a variety of >> builder mistakes and mis-applications. >> >> >> >> Bob Newman >> TCW Technologies, LLC >> 610-928-3420 >> >> On Jun 22, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Jim Combs wrote: >> >> Thanks, I will check that out. >> >> Jim C >> >> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Phillip Perry >> wrote: >> >>> You can install the TCW trim controller and it will address the issue o f >>> run away trim. I know it will do more, but here are some basics. >>> >>> 1) It will limit the time that the servo is active to just a few >>> seconds. Then disconnect the trim requiring to re-engage the switch to >>> activate the servo for a few more seconds. This prevents a stuck swit ch >>> to run the servo to full travel and your trim to full defection. >>> >>> 2) It has a sense circuit built into it that senses where there is a >>> short in a wire causing the servo to run. Then provides a switch that >>> allows you to reverse the travel of the servo through a momentary switc h to >>> bring the servo back to its normal spot; then it disconnects the servo from >>> the buss. Thus locking the servo in a more neutral position. >>> >>> 3) It also has a two-speed option so you don't have to drive your servo >>> at full speed. This brings the trim adjustments down to a slower and m ore >>> reasonable speed when you're really scooting through the air. >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Jim Combs wrote : >>> >>>> I was asked a question recently about runaway trim. >>>> >>>> What would I do if it happened? >>>> >>>> I have tried flying the -10 with the trim held to see just what >>>> happens. I cruise flight, the out of trim condition happens so fast a nd >>>> the forces on the stick quickly overwhelm the pilots ability to contro l the >>>> aircraft. Realizing what is going on would be a surprise to the pilot and >>>> once it happened, flying the airplane becomes the dominate focus item. >>>> Stopping the runaway by pulling a fuse or some other action would most >>>> likely not happen. >>>> >>>> This question does not necessarily apply only to the -10. It could >>>> happen on any aircraft. >>>> >>>> That being said: >>>> >>>> (1) Has anyone ever heard of a runaway condition actually happening? >>>> if so what was the outcome? >>>> >>>> (2) Is there a stand-alone device that could be put into the trim >>>> circuit that is powered by the power going to the trim motor that woul d (A) >>>> prevent the motor from running for an extended time and (B) alert the pilot >>>> to the runaway condition. This would be downstream from the switch or >>>> controlling electronics. >>>> >>>> Jim Combs >>>> N312F (1000+ hours) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-away trim question
The Dynon trim system has runaway protection as well. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > I have VPX. I used use its trim controller. I rewired since then to use th e Dynon autopilot control panel's trim feature with auto-trim. > Kelly > 40866, 150 hrs in the air. > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > >> On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 5:48 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: >> It does. I have a VPX/Pro in my RV-10. >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com> on behalf of johngoodman >> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 7:49:59 AM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Run-away trim question >> > >> >> I have a Vertical Power 200 in my RV-10, and it has runaway trim built in as well as trim speeds. Not sure if the VPX still has it. >> John >> >> -------- >> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481133#481133 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> Email Forum - >> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ums.matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spiral Wrap
From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
McMaster has it: https://www.mcmaster.com/#spiral-bundling-wrap/=1detykp It is PTFE and good for -450 - 500 degrees... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481146#481146 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Kit Log Pro
From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
I figured it out. For those who encounter this issue, it was the Epson printer driver. I have a label printer attached to the kitlog computer. When the Epson print driver is installed, kitlog will not generate reports. uninstall the driver, kitlog works fine. I can have one or the other but not both...very annoying! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481147#481147 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Davis <fdavis101454(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Run-Away Trim
I've had run-away trim. I was on downwind in a Piper Arrow when the nose started to pitch downward. I looked and saw the trim wheel spinning away. I grabbed it, which is the response in a piper, while the CFI with me pulled the breaker. Retrimmed and landed normally. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2018
Subject: Re: Run-Away Trim
Glad you had a good outcome. Bad timing on the approach. On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Frank Davis wrote: > I've had run-away trim. I was on downwind in a Piper Arrow when the nose > started to pitch downward. I looked and saw the trim wheel spinning away. I > grabbed it, which is the response in a piper, while the CFI with me pulled > the breaker. Retrimmed and landed normally. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RV10 Jack Points
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Hi I received this link for RV10 jack points and thought I should share it. I think it will only work if you have the stock brake system. http://www.wintermotorsports.com/jackpoints-rv10 Cheers Les C-GCWZ - sold C-GROK - some assembly required Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481185#481185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Headphone Recommendations
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Hi I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what people are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience across brands. ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... Cheers Les C-GCWZ - sold C-GROK - some assembly required Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
Date: Jun 25, 2018
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From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
I think it is hard to go wrong with top of the line Lightspeed or Bose, and that choice is about fit, feel and how stuff like bluetooth work for you, vs what you have in your audio panel. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:29 PM, kearney wrote: > > Hi > > I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what > people are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are > using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with > experience across brands. > > ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... > > Cheers > > Les > > C-GCWZ - sold > C-GROK - some assembly required > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Derk <cderk(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
Or... if you have a set of DCs that you like, don=99t discount headset sinc.com. You can upgrade them to ANR for under $200 > On Jun 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > If you are going to OSH, I would suggest testing the headsets at the vendo r booths. > > If you look at specs and over all quality it=99s a flip of the coin. Naturally you are going to hear from folks that will swear by one brand o ver another. Just like which efis or priming method is best. =F0=9F=98 > > I noticed an issue when flying with a friend. Every time I turned my head , the seal on the ear cups broke. Even in that vendor=99s booth, I co uld replicate it on demand. > > I went to their main competition and couldn=99t replicate the system . > > At the time, my son, his wife, and I went back daily and repeated our test s to ensure our results were repeatable. > > Our conclusion was that head size and shape were more important than the e lectronics. One brand worked better for me and the other brand worked bette r for them. > > End result, I have two pair from one company and two pair from the other v endor. > > I do like that Bose repairs headsets for free at OSH. Light speed is good too, but you have to send them in for repairs. I also like you can change the side the cord comes down with Bose. I personally favor Bose, but as I m entioned I don=99t think either vendor is significantly better than th e other. > > Get Outlook for iOS > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matroni cs.com> on behalf of kearney > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:29:47 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Headphone Recommendations > > > Hi > > I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what peo ple are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience acros s brands. > > ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... > > Cheers > > Les > > C-GCWZ - sold > C-GROK - some assembly required > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
From: Joe Waltz <joeawaltz(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Love my Clarity Aloft. No swetty ears Can wear wide brim hat Can wear sunglasses without sticking them beneath the earcups Great audio Foam earplugs equal ANR Joe > On Jun 25, 2018, at 18:29, kearney wrote: > > > Hi > > I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what people are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience across brands. > > ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... > > Cheers > > Les > > C-GCWZ - sold > C-GROK - some assembly required > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "g.combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
l have tried Bose, light speed,DC, clarity and Halo. l have tried them all in my RV-10 and my J3. Overall the Bose hands down for me. We did comparisons with Light speed and Bose at the same time in RV10 both RV10 builders and pilots one owned Bose and the other Lightspeed. We swapped in flight back and forth and now we both own Bose. Bose is hard to beat. Sent from my iPhone Geoff Combs Aerosport Modeling & Design > On Jun 25, 2018, at 7:29 PM, kearney wrote: > > > Hi > > I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what people are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience across brands. > > ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... > > Cheers > > Les > > C-GCWZ - sold > C-GROK - some assembly required > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
I have 2 Lightspeed Zulu 3s and 2 Sierras. Love them both, the Zulus are bet ter. Holding off for OSH discounts is a good idea. Marcus > On Jun 25, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Charles Derk wrote: > > Or... if you have a set of DCs that you like, don=99t discount heads etsinc.com. You can upgrade them to ANR for under $200 > >> On Jun 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: >> >> If you are going to OSH, I would suggest testing the headsets at the vend or booths. >> >> If you look at specs and over all quality it=99s a flip of the coin . Naturally you are going to hear from folks that will swear by one brand o ver another. Just like which efis or priming method is best. =F0=9F=98 >> >> I noticed an issue when flying with a friend. Every time I turned my hea d, the seal on the ear cups broke. Even in that vendor=99s booth, I c ould replicate it on demand. >> >> I went to their main competition and couldn=99t replicate the syste m. >> >> At the time, my son, his wife, and I went back daily and repeated our tes ts to ensure our results were repeatable. >> >> Our conclusion was that head size and shape were more important than the e lectronics. One brand worked better for me and the other brand worked bette r for them. >> >> End result, I have two pair from one company and two pair from the other v endor. >> >> I do like that Bose repairs headsets for free at OSH. Light speed is goo d too, but you have to send them in for repairs. I also like you can chang e the side the cord comes down with Bose. I personally favor Bose, but as I mentioned I don=99t think either vendor is significantly better than t he other. >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com> on behalf of kearney >> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:29:47 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Headphone Recommendations >> >> >> Hi >> >> I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what pe ople are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience acros s brands. >> >> ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... >> >> Cheers >> >> Les >> >> C-GCWZ - sold >> C-GROK - some assembly required >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> mail Forum - >> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========================= ========= >> ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ms.matronics.com >> ========================= ========= >> ; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> atronics.com >> ========================= ========= >> ; - List Contribution Web Site - >> ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
I agree with Bob Leffler=99s response. The headset has to to fit well t o be good. I previously had an array of headsets with the headsetsinc conve rsion kits. They were vastly better than headsets without. But once I got t he RV10 I got some Bose X and finally had really comfortable headsets. Then the A20 came out and i tried 2 models of light speeds and the A20s from Bos e. For ya it was a hands down that the Bose had better ANR and fit in our f amily. So now I own 6 pairs of A20=99s. The light speeds aren=99 t bad, but they didn=99t fit us as well and can=99t get down as s mall as some others while still fitting large heads. The BoseX sets are actually very good even for 1-2 year olds if you can get t hem to wear them. They fit great for kids and you can get them used for gre at prices. Tim > On Jun 25, 2018, at 7:07 PM, Charles Derk wrote: > > Or... if you have a set of DCs that you like, don=99t discount heads etsinc.com. You can upgrade them to ANR for under $200 > >> On Jun 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: >> >> If you are going to OSH, I would suggest testing the headsets at the vend or booths. >> >> If you look at specs and over all quality it=99s a flip of the coin . Naturally you are going to hear from folks that will swear by one brand o ver another. Just like which efis or priming method is best. =F0=9F=98 >> >> I noticed an issue when flying with a friend. Every time I turned my hea d, the seal on the ear cups broke. Even in that vendor=99s booth, I c ould replicate it on demand. >> >> I went to their main competition and couldn=99t replicate the syste m. >> >> At the time, my son, his wife, and I went back daily and repeated our tes ts to ensure our results were repeatable. >> >> Our conclusion was that head size and shape were more important than the e lectronics. One brand worked better for me and the other brand worked bette r for them. >> >> End result, I have two pair from one company and two pair from the other v endor. >> >> I do like that Bose repairs headsets for free at OSH. Light speed is goo d too, but you have to send them in for repairs. I also like you can chang e the side the cord comes down with Bose. I personally favor Bose, but as I mentioned I don=99t think either vendor is significantly better than t he other. >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com> on behalf of kearney >> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:29:47 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Headphone Recommendations >> >> >> Hi >> >> I am interested in upgrading my headphones and am wondering about what pe ople are using and what they like/don't like about the ones they are using. I would be especially interested in hearing from people with experience acros s brands. >> >> ANR is essential and blue-tooth audio connections a bonus... >> >> Cheers >> >> Les >> >> C-GCWZ - sold >> C-GROK - some assembly required >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481191#481191 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> mail Forum - >> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========================= ========= >> ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ms.matronics.com >> ========================= ========= >> ; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> atronics.com >> ========================= ========= >> ; - List Contribution Web Site - >> ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jun 25, 2018
Guys Thanks for the responses. I have been using Quite Technologies halo headsets for the past few years. I sometimes seem to have a fit problem which made them less "quiet". Anyway, one of the cords started to fray so I switched back to a DC 13.4 headset that have the headsetsinc ANR retrofit kit installed. They seemed quieter than the halos - but that may be due to an improper fit on my part. I guess I'll have fun at KOSH checking out the Bose / Lightspeed offerings. Cheers Les C-GCWZ - Sold C-GROK - Some assembly required. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481202#481202 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV10 Jack Points
From: "tshort" <tmshort(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2018
I installed a set during the recent upgrades. It was a quick install, and they fit great with no mods to the stock setup (including wheel pants). I bought the Harbor freight scissor jack to travel with. Very happy with them. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481208#481208 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Headphone Recommendations
From: "tshort" <tmshort(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2018
I agree with all of the above - see if you can try them out. Bose for me. Best fit, best comfort, and best noise reduction. Jess likes the Zulus better, so that's what she uses. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481209#481209 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2018
Subject: Re: RV10 Jack Points
If at any airport that has wing jacks (virtually any shop worth visiting) 3/8" carriage bolts in place of your tiedown rings work fine. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:41 AM, tshort wrote: > > I installed a set during the recent upgrades. > > It was a quick install, and they fit great with no mods to the stock setup > (including wheel pants). > > I bought the Harbor freight scissor jack to travel with. > > Very happy with them. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481208#481208 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spiral Wrap
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jun 26, 2018
Hi Thanks for the link. It is just what I needed. Cheers Les C-GCWZ - Sold C-GROK - Some assembly required Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481219#481219 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spinner Cracks
From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 26, 2018
Hey John, thanks for the picture. Will definitely put this on the list for next inspection. Later, Lew -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 Fly off completed ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481224#481224 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2018
From: David Halmos <dhmoose(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Auto Response: RV10-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/26/18
Thank you for your email! Unfortunately, I will checking email VERY sporadically but I will get back to you when I am able. Thanks, David ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
From: "bcondrey" <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2018
RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Parish Moffitt" <parish(at)parishmoffitt.com>
Subject: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
Date: Jun 28, 2018
I will be there, Thanks or doing this, it was great to put faces to names last year. parish -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 4:19 PM Subject: RV10-List: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Carr <junk(at)dcarr.org>
Date: Jun 29, 2018
Subject: Any success with sound reduction?
Hi list, Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am willing to spend a little money and weight. At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of anyone who's been there before. Thanks! David ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
Add some sort of fabric headliner and sidewall covering, for starters to reduce the echo chamber. Tim > On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:19 AM, David Carr wrote: > > Hi list, > > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? > > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am willing to spend a little money and weight. > > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of anyone who's been there before. > > Thanks! > David ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
I've taken no measurements, but I put super sound insulation http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php under the floorboards in front and rear footwells, up the sides of fuselage and under baggage compartment floor, as well as in the doors. Did not use it on the firewall, went with higher temp material. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Add some sort of fabric headliner and sidewall covering, for starters to > reduce the echo chamber. > Tim > > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:19 AM, David Carr wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > > > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? > > > > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high > power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am > willing to spend a little money and weight. > > > > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger > floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like > there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of > anyone who's been there before. > > > > Thanks! > > David > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com>
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
Date: Jun 30, 2018
A few years ago there was a guy with a boombox in a cooler at OSH. He closed that cooler and it got dead quiet. It was impressive. It cost a 1AU for the whole plane. I installed it under the floor boards, but then realized how flammable this stuff is. Id rather take the noise than the toxic fumes. I would love to remove them all, but its not so easy now. With a pair of Bose A20 (or Lightspeed Zulus) headsets you shouldnt hear much of it Lenny > On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:19 PM, David Carr wrote: > > Hi list, > > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? > > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am willing to spend a little money and weight. > > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of anyone who's been there before. > > Thanks! > David ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
That is why I chose the material I did. From catalog: Has fire retardant qualities and meets FAR 25.853a Appendix F, Pt1. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:20 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote: > > A few years ago there was a guy with a boombox in a cooler at OSH. He > closed that cooler and it got dead quiet. It was impressive. It cost a 1A U > for the whole plane. I installed it under the floor boards, but then > realized how flammable this stuff is. I=99d rather take the noise t han the > toxic fumes. I would love to remove them all, but it=99s not so eas y now. > With a pair of Bose A20 (or Lightspeed Zulus) headsets you shouldn =99t hear > much of it > > Lenny > > > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:19 PM, David Carr wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > > > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? > > > > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high > power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I a m > willing to spend a little money and weight. > > > > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger > floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like > there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of > anyone who's been there before. > > > > Thanks! > > David > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Carr <junk(at)dcarr.org>
Date: Jun 30, 2018
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
Hi Kelly, What did you use on the firewall? Thanks, David On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:56 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > I've taken no measurements, but I put super sound insulation > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php > under the floorboards in front and rear footwells, up the sides of > fuselage and under baggage compartment floor, as well as in the doors. > Did not use it on the firewall, went with higher temp material. > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > >> >> Add some sort of fabric headliner and sidewall covering, for starters to >> reduce the echo chamber. >> Tim >> >> > On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:19 AM, David Carr wrote: >> > >> > Hi list, >> > >> > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? >> > >> > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high >> power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am >> willing to spend a little money and weight. >> > >> > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger >> floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like >> there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of >> anyone who's been there before. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > David >> >> >> ======================================= >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ >> Navigator?RV10-List >> =================================== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> =================================== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> =================================== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> =================================== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2018
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
Just left setting up Camp Scholler site and would be pleased to attend and assist the barbeque. Fiber Optic line has just been installed on the Southside of Lindy for a new mesh Wi-Fi. New asphalt is going down Monday to replace potholes and frost damage. 2" minus gravel on all row intersections with Lindy. Many dry sites now have individual site signs with Alpha/numerics and clips to attach credentials. John Cox On Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 15:24 bcondrey wrote: > > RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be > hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at > 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11t h > annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler > will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as pri or > years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup hel p > welcome but both should be =9Cminimal=9D. > > If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure there =99s > enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no > need to bring anything. > > Note: This is also posted on VAF at > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 > > Bob > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Any success with sound reduction?
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2018
IIRC it was one of the fiberfrax varieties. No sound qualities. On 6/30/2018 12:56 AM, David Carr wrote: > Hi Kelly, > > What did you use on the firewall? > > Thanks, > David > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:56 PM, Kelly McMullen > wrote: > > I've taken no measurements, but I put super sound insulation > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php > <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php> > under the floorboards in front and rear footwells, up the sides of > fuselage and under baggage compartment floor, as well as in the doors. > Did not use it on the firewall, went with higher temp material. > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tim Olson > wrote: > > > Add some sort of fabric headliner and sidewall covering, for > starters to reduce the echo chamber. > Tim > > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:19 AM, David Carr > wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > > > Has anyone had success with sound reduction in the cockpit? > > > > At the moment, I'm experiencing 96-97dBA in cruise and 100+dBA at high power. I've got good headsets, but I'd like to do better than this. I am willing to spend a little money and weight. > > > > At the moment, there's only carpet on the front and rear passenger floors. All other surfaces are painted metal/fiberglass. It seems like there's room for improvement, but I would love to hear the experience of anyone who's been there before. > > > > Thanks! > > David > > > ============== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > <http://www.matronics.com/>Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > <http://forums.matronics.com> > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > <http://wiki.matronics.com> > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > <http://www.matronics.com/>contribution > ========== > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gautier, Thomas N (3262)" <thomas.n.gautier(at)jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
Date: Jul 03, 2018
Bob, I will be there. My first AirVenture in my 10. Regards, Nick Gautier 60hr N363TG Sent from my iPhone > > > Subject: RV10-List: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social > From: "bcondrey" <condreyb(at)gmail.com> > > > RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an > RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running > until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 > dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about > a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the > vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be > minimal. > > If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. > We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring > anything. > > Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 > > Bob > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Beacom <thebeacoms(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 05, 2018
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
Bob, My wife Michele and I will be there! We fly in that morning. Empennage essentially complete with QB wings coming in October. -Dan Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2018, at 3:18 PM, bcondrey wrote: > > > RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. > > If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. > > Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 > > Bob > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kenneth Langley <klangley1(at)mygrande.net>
Date: Jul 07, 2018
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
I will be there again (3rd year for me) with a guest who is flying up with me in the RV 10. I look forward to getting to know you all better. Ken Langley. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Dan Beacom wrote: > > > Bob, > > My wife Michele and I will be there! We fly in that morning. Empennage essentially complete with QB wings coming in October. > > -Dan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jun 27, 2018, at 3:18 PM, bcondrey wrote: >> >> >> RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. >> >> If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. >> >> Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
From: Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 09, 2018
I will be there. First time for me. Thank you for the invitation. Rob. > On Jul 7, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Kenneth Langley wrote: > > > I will be there again (3rd year for me) with a guest who is flying up with me in the RV 10. > I look forward to getting to know you all better. > > Ken Langley. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 5, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Dan Beacom wrote: >> >> >> Bob, >> >> My wife Michele and I will be there! We fly in that morning. Empennage essentially complete with QB wings coming in October. >> >> -Dan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Jun 27, 2018, at 3:18 PM, bcondrey wrote: >>> >>> >>> RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. >>> >>> If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. >>> >>> Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Acronyms
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: Jul 10, 2018
This is from the January issue of Kitplanes. It was inspired by a letter to the editor complaining about all the acronyms in articles. I just copied the text from a PDF so well see how it formats. SOS These are amazing craft we build. We can have TSIO engines from BPE with TSOd ECI cylinders, EI by E-MAG, EFI, even ECUs that support FADEC as we run them to TBO. Some opt for a 13B from an RX7 or even an LS1 with a PSRU. Others want a TDI to bang JP-1 or even a PT6 to torch it. If youre flying E/A-B, you have lots of options to turn USD into BTUs and dBs. Our modern panels are electro-marvels. We now have full EFISin12or24 VDC with a PFD with ASI in KIAS,or MACH, an ADI, VSI, and an HSI whose CDI can be driven by LNAV, RNAV, WAAS GPS, VOR, LOC, or INS and a VPI driven by VNAV or GS. Additionally, theres a BARO display of QFE, QNE, or QNH. All of which can be layered with SynVis in HD to help prevent CFIT. Integrated or separately we join the PFD with an ND for MAP plus an EMS, often on an LCD MFD. The MAP shows a DG for TRK/MAG or RMI plus NAV data for FLT PLN. Through ADS-B we can display NEXRAD and a form of TCAS, and pull up more WX info like ATIS, TAF, METAR, TPs, AIRMETS, SIGMETS, NOTAMS, even RAF. >From the EMS we see RPM, MAP, (not to be confused with MAP which is a MAP), EGTs, (ROP, PK, LOP), CHTs, AMPs, VOLTs, MPG, ETA, OAT, GMT, and even HOBBS. No EFIS suite would be complete without an integrated AP/FD, XPNDR, and AUDX with VHF COMs, NAVs, VOX, and even BT to stream REO or BTO from your PED to your A20. Since we already have access to ARINC and SATCOM, ACARS and CPDLC cant be far off as we transition to FANS. All of this suite is driven by a brain box of MEMS and ICs called several different versions of ADAHRS. Most systems have their OS AND BIOS updated by USB; some even have a CDU like a proper FMC. All are often acquired from OEMs, Spruce, or Stein, often from recommendations from VAF, EAA, or AOPA, and funded from an IRA, 401k, or HELOC with a VRB APR. Lets fly this thing. If the FSS says your destination is CAVU, youre CAVOK, but if its MVFR, IFR, or WOXOF, you better be prepared. You can take off at VR at MTOW, (unless you RTO), fly a SID with TRACON by LNAV WPT to WPT, dodging TCUs above the MEA and MOCA with ARTCC, then a STAR to the IAF, FAF/LOM, all the way to the DH/IM at the MAP (point not to be confused with the other MAPs), looking for an MALSR or ALSFII with PAPI, REIL, or other ALS, hopefully to the TDZE. However, if still IMC at the DH or MDA, then fly the MAP (proce- dure not to be confused with the other MAPs) and divert when BINGO to BFE because either the OVC, VVR, or the RVR are too low for your DH or MDA. By your ETA at your ALT, you better hope your SFC and FOB were correctly calculated and that the ANP is within the RNP, especially below the MSA and/or the CG hasnt moved too far AFT, any one of which could make you GLOC, trig- gering the ELT by a tragic CFIT into the ROX where the NTSB and CNN will declare you MORT and blame the whole mess on PILOT ERROR. No matter how SIERRA HOTEL the DAR thinks your airplane is, all liability still rests with the PIC (who needs a current BFR from a CFI and a MED from an AME). The bottom line is you better CYA per SOP, the AIM, the AFM, and the FARs lest some SOB from the FAA will eat your LOA, PPl, CPL, or ATP, and leave you SOL. Enough with the acronyms already! This nonsense is all over the MAP (not to be confused with the other MAPs). Its enough BS to give one IBSD, make one ADHD, or turn even LDS to LSD. J/K LOL. CU@HBC OSH! KITPLANES January 2018 51 -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Flew May 10 2014 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481547#481547 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Croser <peter.croser(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Jul 11, 2018
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
Hi ladies and gentlemen Unfortunately my daughter Emily and I fly in Tuesday evening from Hawaii breaking holiday to come to Oshkosh leaving wife and other daughter on the beach. We are making special trip to see you all at Oshkosh but cant make the dinner/social. Unfortunate for us but we look forward to meeting you at your aircraft during the week. We live near Canberra in Australia and received our RV10 quickbuild fuselage and empennage kit 2 months ago. We are in the open eyed open ears learning mode. Look forward to any opportunity to learn from you all at Oshkosh and to admire your work. I own a Texan T6 Harvard VH-HAR if you want to look us up on the web. Regards and enjoy Peter Croser Sent from my iPhone > On 10 Jul 2018, at 11:24 am, Rob Kermanj wrote: > > > I will be there. First time for me. Thank you for the invitation. > > Rob. > >> On Jul 7, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Kenneth Langley wrote: >> >> >> I will be there again (3rd year for me) with a guest who is flying up with me in the RV 10. >> I look forward to getting to know you all better. >> >> Ken Langley. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jul 5, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Dan Beacom wrote: >>> >>> >>> Bob, >>> >>> My wife Michele and I will be there! We fly in that morning. Empennage essentially complete with QB wings coming in October. >>> >>> -Dan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Jun 27, 2018, at 3:18 PM, bcondrey wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> RV-10 flyers, builders and wannabes Save the Date. We will again be hosting an RV-10 OSH gathering on 7/22 (Sunday before the show) starting at 5:30 and running until ??? According to our records, this will be the 11th annual OSH RV-10 dinner extravaganza... Exact location in Camp Scholler will be provided about a week prior but should be in the same area as prior years; somewhere in the vicinity of 50th & Lindbergh. Setup & cleanup help welcome but both should be minimal. >>>> >>>> If you are planning to attend, please let me know so make sure theres enough food. We will be bringing in food from a local establishment so no need to bring anything. >>>> >>>> Note: This is also posted on VAF at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161566 >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481231#481231 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2018 AirVenture RV-10 Dinner & Social
From: "bcondrey" <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 13, 2018
Original post has been updated with exact location info. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481641#481641 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Jennings <tjennings07(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 25, 2018
Subject: RV-10 Osh parking?
Hello All, I am headed to Oshkosh in the Cherokee tomorrow thru Sunday and hopeful to catch up with -10 builders and drivers. Is there an RV-10 corral? I have never been to the Osh before so I have little reference to locations so any direction is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Jennings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 25, 2018
Subject: Re: RV-10 Osh parking?
Look nearly straight west of Vans tent. Stop by Vans tent and they will direct you. Not attending this year. Engine on and cowl and baffles fitted. I hope to mount mount my Whirlwind 77HRT soon. Robert Jones > On Jul 25, 2018, at 20:25, Tim Jennings wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am headed to Oshkosh in the Cherokee tomorrow thru Sunday and hopeful to catch up with -10 builders and drivers. Is there an RV-10 corral? I have never been to the Osh before so I have little reference to locations so any direction is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Tim Jennings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 26, 2018
Subject: Re: RV-10 Osh parking?
There is not grouping per se, but if you walk down taxiway to Homebuilt Camping you will see a lot of -10s. A number have already left. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Tim Jennings wrote: > Hello All, > > I am headed to Oshkosh in the Cherokee tomorrow thru Sunday and hopeful to > catch up with -10 builders and drivers. Is there an RV-10 corral? I have > never been to the Osh before so I have little reference to locations so any > direction is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Tim Jennings > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: RV-10 Osh parking?
Date: Jul 26, 2018
You weren't around when we left this morning. Hopefully next year we can pull off the same random, uncoordinated arrivals, and make parking next to each other three in a row. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Kelly McMullen Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 4:44:58 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Osh parking? There is not grouping per se, but if you walk down taxiway to Homebuilt Cam ping you will see a lot of -10s. A number have already left. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Tim Jennings > wrote: Hello All, I am headed to Oshkosh in the Cherokee tomorrow thru Sunday and hopeful to catch up with -10 builders and drivers. Is there an RV-10 corral? I have never been to the Osh before so I have little reference to locations so an y direction is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Jennings ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-10 Osh parking?
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 26, 2018
That would be fun. You were still in tent when headed for breakfast. ;-) They say they will do night airshow tonight to replace last night's canceled show. On 7/26/2018 4:03 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: > You werent around when we left this morning. Hopefully next year we > can pull off the same random, uncoordinated arrivals, and make parking > next to each other three in a row. > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > on behalf of Kelly McMullen > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 26, 2018 4:44:58 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Osh parking? > There is not grouping per se, but if you walk down taxiway to Homebuilt > Camping you will see a lot of -10s. A number have already left. > > Sent from my IBM-360 main frame > > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Tim Jennings > wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am headed to Oshkosh in the Cherokee tomorrow thru Sunday and > hopeful to catch up with -10 builders and drivers. Is there an > RV-10 corral? I have never been to the Osh before so I have little > reference to locations so any direction is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Tim Jennings > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Sun Visor user reports and comparison
Date: Jul 27, 2018
I originally installed the sun visors from Aviation Tech Products in my RV10 back in 2011. They worked well. There is a full range of adjustment including protection from sun on the side windows when needed. The only problem I ran into over time is that the mounting required periodic tightening of the mounting bolt. After 6+ years, the passenger side visor tended to droop during rough field landings (my home base is a bumpy grass field) and could no longer be tightened enough to keep it in place during those landings. As a 1,000 hour present, I decided to give my '10 a set of Rosen Visors simply to fix the occasional droop. That seems like a nit of a problem but after 1,000 hours, cockpit comfort and convenience issues tend to stand out. The more expensive Rosen Visor is a more robust product in terms of the their mounting hardware and design. Most notably, the Rosen uses 2 bolts to mount to the airframe where the Aviation Tech Visor uses 1 bolt. This, along with the rest of the mounting and adjustment hardware, looks like it will make a difference over time. My conclusion at this point is that both products are good values and would recommend either. You get what you pay for in the margins of durability. * The Aviation Tech product is reasonably priced and works quite well. No regrets here. I feel like I got good service with only a minor complaint after 6 years of flawless service. They are well built, well designed and easy to adjust as the sun moves around. * The Rosen product is premium priced and works quite well. I am confident that I will get good service for the life of the airframe. They are solidly built, well designed and easy to adjust as the sun moves around. Just thought I'd share. Now I'm trying to figure out whether dropping $$$ on the newer Bose ANRs is a worthy gift for my wife and me. We have 4 of the old units - battery powered in the rear, bus powered (or battery) in the front. They all work well but a little more noise reduction would always be welcomed. Bill "still loving the best airplane I'll ever own" Watson --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2018
Subject: Re: Sun Visor user reports and comparison
If you are talking Bose X to Bose A20, yes it is worth it, at least for front seat. I think a few shops still offer trade-ins on the X model I traded my with mypilotshop.com a couple years ago. Can't comment on the new in the ear models, but the Bose rep at OSH said you get more noise reduction with the A20s. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > Now I'm trying to figure out whether dropping $$$ on the newer Bose ANRs > is a worthy gift for my wife and me. We have 4 of the old units - battery > powered in the rear, bus powered (or battery) in the front. They all work > well but a little more noise reduction would always be welcomed. > > Bill "still loving the best airplane I'll ever own" Watson > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-9010087143114339674_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Subject: Antenna locations
For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? ELT: out the top in the tailcone? ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? Thanks for the advice! Steven DeFord Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Antenna locations
Date: Jul 29, 2018
GPS: Top on aluminum aft of cabin cover (two) Com1/Com2: One under each rear seat Nav: whiskers on the bottom of the tail ELT: on top, just in front of vertical Transponder: tunnel near the exhaust ADSB: just aft of the second bulkhead behind baggage on the bottom APRS: on the bottom just aft of the baggage bulkhead I've been flying for five years and have not experienced any issues. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steven DeFord Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 4:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? ELT: out the top in the tailcone? ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? Thanks for the advice! Steven DeFord Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phil Yoder <phil(at)philyoder.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
XM antenna on top On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 4:44 PM Bob Leffler wrote: > > GPS: Top on aluminum aft of cabin cover (two) > Com1/Com2: One under each rear seat > Nav: whiskers on the bottom of the tail > ELT: on top, just in front of vertical > Transponder: tunnel near the exhaust > ADSB: just aft of the second bulkhead behind baggage on the bottom > APRS: on the bottom just aft of the baggage bulkhead > > I've been flying for five years and have not experienced any issues. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steven DeFord > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 4:16 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations > > > For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? > I=99m getting to the point where I=99m closing up the floors, and so want to > get my coax run to the right places. > > GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? > COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do yo u > put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? > NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope receptio n > too? Marker beacon? > ELT: out the top in the tailcone? > > ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? > > Thanks for the advice! > Steven DeFord > > Sent from my iPad > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > -- Phil Yoder phil(at)philyoder.com \__________o-( )-o__________/ www.itsnotthatcomplex.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
GPS (2) metal tailcone on top just aft of fiberglass cabin top. ELT further aft on tailcone top. NAV cat whiskers below rudder/horizontal stab on belly. XPDR under LH baggage floor, com2 under RH baggage floor. Access panels in baggage floor allows access to the antennas as well as step bolts. COM 1 under pilot seat. Sirius sat radio on glareshield. ADSB 2 under co-pilot seat. Flawless for 10 years and 1000 hours. David Maib > On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: > > > For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. > > GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? > COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? > NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? > ELT: out the top in the tailcone? > > ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? > > Thanks for the advice! > Steven DeFord > > Sent from my iPad > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. Carl > On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: > > > For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. > > GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? > COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? > NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? > ELT: out the top in the tailcone? > > ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? > > Thanks for the advice! > Steven DeFord > > Sent from my iPad > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
GPS and XM - Under the cowling just forward of the firewall on a custom shelf COM1/COM2 - Right behind each rear seat in the baggage floor next to step bolts with access plate in baggage floor. NAV - wiskers at top of VS. Initially under fuselage tail under HS, but had extreme shadowing there so moved up top. MKR BCN - inside right wingtip (IMHO no need anymore with decommissioning and other legal means of identifying) ELT- under empennage fairing XPDR/ADSB-Out (Garming gtx330 with ES conversion) one antenna under right front seat floor. -Sean #40303 (wow, almost time for 5th condition inspection, time flies) Steven DeFord wrote on 7/29/2018 3:15 PM: > > For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. > > GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? > COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? > NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? > ELT: out the top in the tailcone? > > ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? > > Thanks for the advice! > Steven DeFord > > Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Note, Location of IFR WAAS GPS under the cowl is of questionable legality and may impair performance. TSO requires full view of horizon in all directions, which is hard to do unless it is on top of fuselage or cabin. Nobody is going to check whether you follow the instructions for install on certified planes...only you have to decide what you are comfortable with. I have Dynon VFR GPS under cowl, and Garmin IFR antenna on top of the cabin. Kelly On 7/29/2018 4:34 PM, Sean Stephens wrote: > > GPS and XM - Under the cowling just forward of the firewall on a custom > shelf > COM1/COM2 - Right behind each rear seat in the baggage floor next to > step bolts with access plate in baggage floor. > NAV - wiskers at top of VS. Initially under fuselage tail under HS, but > had extreme shadowing there so moved up top. > MKR BCN - inside right wingtip (IMHO no need anymore with > decommissioning and other legal means of identifying) > ELT- under empennage fairing > XPDR/ADSB-Out (Garming gtx330 with ES conversion) one antenna under > right front seat floor. > > -Sean #40303 (wow, almost time for 5th condition inspection, time flies) > > Steven DeFord wrote on 7/29/2018 3:15 PM: >> >> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your >> antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, >> and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >> >> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do >> you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope >> reception too? Marker beacon? >> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >> >> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >> >> Thanks for the advice! >> Steven DeFord >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? Steve Sent from my iPad > On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > > Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. > > Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. > > ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). > > Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). > > ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. > > GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. > > Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. > > Carl > >> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >> >> >> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >> >> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >> >> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >> >> Thanks for the advice! >> Steven DeFord >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
GPS antenna on top of empenage aft of baggage area. ELT aft of gps. Transponder under pilot seat. COM 1 under right rear passenger seat. (Bent whip). COM 2 in right wingtip. VOR/GS in left wingtip. ADSB-in antennas on forward fiberglass doorposts (just aft of windscreen). GPS (adsb-in Skyradar) and xm antenna on glareshield. Belly antenna on the ground? I think one time ground couldnt hear me, just switched to com 2. Marker Beacon? Going the way of the Dodo. GPS provides these fixes. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481940#481940 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
No issue with tower hearing me - ever. The one antenna on the top and one on the bottom is a Boeing 747 consideration - and not applicable to RVs. The common concept is VHF transmissions are line of sight. This is not exactly correct. While the antenna radiates in a somewhat Omni directional pattern, some of the RF energy will be reflected off all surrounded surfaces - like the ground. A nearby tower or getting clearance from an airport near where you are are not problems. As example, I pick up the AWOS from a nearby airport while in my hangar, and there is a hill between the airplane and the airport. The only time I pick up a Marker Beacon is when I fly over one of the few airports that still have one. I have never done an instrumented approach that had a marker beacon. I was talked into getting and audio panel with the marker beacon receiver when building and before routinely flying IFR - that was a mistake. The new RV-8 project will not have one. The one change I will do on the RV-8 is to move the GTN-650 GPS antenna to aft of the cockpit on top of the fuselage (under the canopy glass). The GTN-650 can be finicky. While it has worked well for me on top of the glare shield, talking with people whos opinion I value I decided this might reduce any potential RFI issues (the GTN-650 has known RFI problems and I chased one myself). You will find the SkyView GPS antenna/receiver to overall work better - it will go on top of the glare shield like the RV-10. Carl > On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:05 AM, Steven DeFord wrote: > > > Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? > > Steve > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: >> >> >> Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. >> >> Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. >> >> ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). >> >> Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). >> >> ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. >> >> GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. >> >> Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. >> >> Carl >> >>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >>> >>> >>> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >>> >>> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >>> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >>> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >>> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >>> >>> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >>> >>> Thanks for the advice! >>> Steven DeFord >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Antenna locations
Date: Jul 30, 2018
The FAA is phasing out Marker Beacons, as they are phasing out NDBs I kind of like Marker beacons - I find it reassuring to hear the steady "Beep, Beep, Beep..." as I fly an approach, just giving a little indication that I am flying the approach correctly. Of course, with GPS and apps like Foreflight, situational awareness is much easier now than it used to be, hence the lack of need for MB's. Jack Phillips Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia Kit # 40610 - on the final push, hoping to fly by the end of the year -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:05 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? Steve Sent from my iPad > On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > --> > > Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. > > Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. > > ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). > > Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). > > ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. > > GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. > > Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. > > Carl > >> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >> >> --> >> >> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >> >> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >> >> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >> >> Thanks for the advice! >> Steven DeFord >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
I too have GTN650 with Skyview. It seems that the TSO protocol does not allow using satellites with signals below some integrity threshold, while the Dynon GPS250 can use them. Dynon talks some about this with their GPS2020 receiver required for ADSB. The difference is such that my GPS 250 locks on location while sitting in hangar with door open, while the 650 requires clear view vertically before it will lock on. A non-aviation GPS will lock while sitting in the back seat of a car. Just depends on what the integrity of signal and strength of signal requirements are for the given application. Best to follow suppliers recommendations for GPS antenna placement if you plan on having IFR legality or need ADS-B out quality position signals. I agree that two belly whips works fine. Occasionally a ground control or clearance delivery won't hear from one antenna. Switch to other radio has taken care of those issues. No problem at home drome calling ground from between hangar rows without line of sight. Kelly On 7/30/2018 5:48 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > No issue with tower hearing me - ever. > > The one antenna on the top and one on the bottom is a Boeing 747 consideration - and not applicable to RVs. The common concept is VHF transmissions are line of sight. This is not exactly correct. While the antenna radiates in a somewhat Omni directional pattern, some of the RF energy will be reflected off all surrounded surfaces - like the ground. A nearby tower or getting clearance from an airport near where you are are not problems. > > As example, I pick up the AWOS from a nearby airport while in my hangar, and there is a hill between the airplane and the airport. > > The only time I pick up a Marker Beacon is when I fly over one of the few airports that still have one. I have never done an instrumented approach that had a marker beacon. I was talked into getting and audio panel with the marker beacon receiver when building and before routinely flying IFR - that was a mistake. The new RV-8 project will not have one. > > The one change I will do on the RV-8 is to move the GTN-650 GPS antenna to aft of the cockpit on top of the fuselage (under the canopy glass). The GTN-650 can be finicky. While it has worked well for me on top of the glare shield, talking with people whos opinion I value I decided this might reduce any potential RFI issues (the GTN-650 has known RFI problems and I chased one myself). You will find the SkyView GPS antenna/receiver to overall work better - it will go on top of the glare shield like the RV-10. > > Carl > >> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:05 AM, Steven DeFord wrote: >> >> >> Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? >> >> Steve >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: >>> >>> >>> Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. >>> >>> Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. >>> >>> ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). >>> >>> Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). >>> >>> ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. >>> >>> GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. >>> >>> Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. >>> >>> Carl >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >>>> >>>> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >>>> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >>>> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >>>> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >>>> >>>> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >>>> >>>> Thanks for the advice! >>>> Steven DeFord >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, because the first told you to compare GS intercept with altitude, and the second told you it was time to go missed if you didn't have the required visual clues. All automatic and audible...no need to watch anything. Also cheap to maintain. The elimination is just budget window dressing. When the DOD moves (probably already has) to a different GPS system, the users may get some reality as to what GPS system really costs, compared to the old land based system. Yes, much more universal coverage..but launching and maintaining 20 some satellites plus a few more for WAAS is probably order of magnitude bigger than land based system IF the FAA ever had to pay the whole bill. But technology moves on and has us replacing electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. Nostalgia mode off. Kelly On 7/30/2018 6:00 AM, Jack Philips wrote: > > The FAA is phasing out Marker Beacons, as they are phasing out NDBs I kind of like Marker beacons - I find it reassuring to hear the steady "Beep, Beep, Beep..." as I fly an approach, just giving a little indication that I am flying the approach correctly. Of course, with GPS and apps like Foreflight, situational awareness is much easier now than it used to be, hence the lack of need for MB's. > > Jack Phillips > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > Kit # 40610 - on the final push, hoping to fly by the end of the year ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Belue <kdb.rv10(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
I have an RV-6A with a com belly ant. Works great most of the time except one time I was on the ground trying to leave the Destin, FL airport. There you have to talk to Eglin departure for clearance to take off, which is located several miles away. I could hear them, but they could not hear me. I had to taxi around the airport until I could find a high enough spot so they could hear me. I put an ant on top of my RV10 to alleviate that problem. Why cause yourself more problems? Just because it works sometimes, doesnt mean it always will. Sent from my iPhone >> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:05 AM, Steven DeFord wrote: >> >> >> Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? >> >> Steve >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: >>> >>> >>> Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. >>> >>> Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. >>> >>> ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). >>> >>> Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). >>> >>> ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. >>> >>> GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. >>> >>> Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. >>> >>> Carl >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >>>> >>>> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >>>> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >>>> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >>>> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >>>> >>>> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >>>> >>>> Thanks for the advice! >>>> Steven DeFord >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
I installed and still use the MB in my planes. I figure when you're in IMC, ILS approaches still give in most cases the lowest levels for approach altitudes, so they are a good approach for really bad days, and an MB audible alert is just one more tool in the toolbox for keeping you situationally aware. It's just a run of coax, and a strip of scrap aluminum in my planes, so it didn't really take much effort, time, or weight to add. Every tool was designed for a reason, and a marker beacon is just a nice way to hear where you are without looking. It also gets me to be aware when I inadvertently fly over one why x/c to look out for traffic that I may be affecting when flying by any random airport. So I don't really see a downside of having one. On the wrong day though, there could be a downside to not. Tim On 07/30/2018 08:46 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, because the first told you > to compare GS intercept with altitude, and the second told you it was > time to go missed if you didn't have the required visual clues. All > automatic and audible...no need to watch anything. Also cheap to > maintain. The elimination is just budget window dressing. When the DOD > moves (probably already has) to a different GPS system, the users may > get some reality as to what GPS system really costs, compared to the old > land based system. Yes, much more universal coverage..but launching and > maintaining 20 some satellites plus a few more for WAAS is probably > order of magnitude bigger than land based system IF the FAA ever had to > pay the whole bill. But technology moves on and has us replacing > electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. > Nostalgia mode off. > Kelly > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Carr <junk(at)dcarr.org>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
FWIW, I do find sometimes that on ground the top antenna gets through when the belly one wont. On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > I installed and still use the MB in my planes. I figure when > you're in IMC, ILS approaches still give in most cases the lowest > levels for approach altitudes, so they are a good approach for > really bad days, and an MB audible alert is just one more tool > in the toolbox for keeping you situationally aware. It's just > a run of coax, and a strip of scrap aluminum in my planes, so it > didn't really take much effort, time, or weight to add. > Every tool was designed for a reason, and a marker beacon > is just a nice way to hear where you are without looking. > It also gets me to be aware when I inadvertently fly over > one why x/c to look out for traffic that I may be affecting > when flying by any random airport. > > So I don't really see a downside of having one. On the > wrong day though, there could be a downside to not. > > Tim > > > On 07/30/2018 08:46 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, because the first told you to >> compare GS intercept with altitude, and the second told you it was time to >> go missed if you didn't have the required visual clues. All automatic and >> audible...no need to watch anything. Also cheap to maintain. The >> elimination is just budget window dressing. When the DOD moves (probably >> already has) to a different GPS system, the users may get some reality as >> to what GPS system really costs, compared to the old land based system. >> Yes, much more universal coverage..but launching and maintaining 20 some >> satellites plus a few more for WAAS is probably order of magnitude bigger >> than land based system IF the FAA ever had to pay the whole bill. But >> technology moves on and has us replacing electronics every 10-15 years >> instead of every 30 years. >> Nostalgia mode off. >> Kelly >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
I have both COM attenna on the bottom, staggered. I can recall one, maybe two situations where I was not able to communicate while on the ground. Switching to the other radio, I was able to communicate. On 7/30/2018 2:05 AM, Steven DeFord wrote: > > Thanks! No issues with talking to tower on the ground with belly antennas? Im planning to go Skyview as well. No more marker beacons because GPS supplants the need for them? > > Steve > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jul 29, 2018, at 15:29, Carl Froehlich wrote: >> >> >> Two bent whip comm antennas on the belly, one behind the other, one on the left side of the tunnel floor and one on the right side of the tunnel floor. That way you can get to the antennas and the coax feed lines, and they do not interfere with the elevator push tube. >> >> Transponder antenna under the passenger seat. >> >> ADS-B antenna on the belly aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I mount the ADS-B receiver there as well. It is wired with a single four conductor shielded wire (SkyView system). >> >> Home brew wingtip NAV/LOC/GS antenna (picks up VORs at 100+ miles). >> >> ELT antenna under the empennage fairing. >> >> GTN-650 GPS antenna and SkyView integrated GPS antenna and receiver mounted on top of the glare shield. >> >> Marker beacon antenna is a 31 piece of wire running under the engine with tie wraps, connected at the firewall via a BNC bulkhead connector. While this works well, I will never again put a marker beacon receiver in an airplane. >> >> Carl >> >>> On Jul 29, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Steven DeFord wrote: >>> >>> >>> For those of you who equipped for IFR, where did you put your antennas? Im getting to the point where Im closing up the floors, and so want to get my coax run to the right places. >>> >>> GPS: into/through the fiberglass canopy cover? >>> COM1/COM2: bottom somewhere? One on top and one on bottom? Where do you put it to avoid interfering with others and so you have access later? >>> NAV: whiskers on the VS? Wingtip? Does this cover glide slope reception too? Marker beacon? >>> ELT: out the top in the tailcone? >>> >>> ADS-B/Transponder? Bottom below the pilot footwell or something? >>> >>> Thanks for the advice! >>> Steven DeFord >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Kellym wrote: > Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... > > But technology moves on and has us replacing > electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. > Nostalgia mode off. > Kelly > > I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life cycle comment is correct. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "tsts4" <tsts4us(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
- My cat whisker VOR antenna is mounted on the bottom of the tailcone under the HS - My #1 COM antenna is mounted right behind the seam of the cabin top and tailcone on the tailcone top skin. I did extend a ground-plane onto the cabin top using 3 strips of copper foil embedded into the fiberglass. My ELT antenna is roughly 2 feet behind it. - My #2 COM is a bent whip under my right wing under the first inboard bay at the wing root. - My transponder antenna is right behind the baggage bulkhead on the bottom of the tailcone (my transponder (a GTX 23ES) is back there too) - I have my GTN 650 and one of my G3X GPS antennas mounted between the doors on the cabin top. The 650 antenna is ahead of the G3X antenna and offset right of centerline; the G3X is offset left. The coax runs through my overhead console. -------- Todd Stovall aka Auburntsts on EAA, AOPA, and VAF RV-10 N728TT -- Flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481969#481969 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one 15 miles from my home airport as well. We arent decommissioning all That fast around me. Tim > On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > Kellym wrote: >> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >> >> But technology moves on and has us replacing >> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >> Nostalgia mode off. >> Kelly >> >> > > > I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. > As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life cycle comment is correct. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2018
Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm and needs maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of service and start process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for practice in our area had a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it was in service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of service, with all the structures still there. Keeping a single frequency transmitter with a single frequency tone generator running is not exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive. I guess, because of lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a DME while neither the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical horizontal paths require anything beyond a clock. On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one 15 miles from my home airport as well. We arent decommissioning all > That fast around me. > Tim > >> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >> >> >> >> Kellym wrote: >>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>> >>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>> Nostalgia mode off. >>> Kelly >>> >>> >> >> >> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. >> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life cycle comment is correct. >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2018
So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons might be: 1. ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide it's easier to proceed with it 2. There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA 3. Habit I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because they are easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full approach at smaller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly accurately because of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my sense of things. Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary basement" Watson On 7/30/2018 7:06 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm and > needs maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of service > and start process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for practice > in our area had a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it was in > service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of service, > with all the structures still there. Keeping a single frequency > transmitter with a single frequency tone generator running is not > exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive. I guess, because of > lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a DME while neither > the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical horizontal paths > require anything beyond a clock. > > On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a >> couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one >> 15 miles from my home airport as well. We arent decommissioning all >> That fast around me. >> Tim >> >>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Kellym wrote: >>>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>>> >>>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>>> Nostalgia mode off. >>>> Kelly >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder >>> to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find >>> one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so >>> far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. >>> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still >>> contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required >>> ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and >>> instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But >>> I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were >>> pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they >>> wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up >>> with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now >>> DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, >>> Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life >>> cycle comment is correct. >>> >>> -------- >>> Bob Turner >>> RV-10 QB >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2018
Among other reasons, there isn't an LPV approach available to practice within 30 mi of my home base. The RNAV/VNAV approach at same airport I do ILS approaches has different holding pattern with conflicts, uses extra 1000 ft at IAF, has 100 ft higher minimums. Only difference is whether I have to watch for ILS switchover from GPS. I generally don't care for the T layout of GPS approaches. ILS has independent monitoring that sounds an alarm in monitoring facility if anything goes out of tolerance. GPS relies on software monitoring in your box...less transparent. GPS is reliant on WAAS corrections. ILS is more likely to have recent flight check. Either one is likely to get you to a position to land if the visibility and ceiling are there. Sometimes 50 or 100 ft make that difference. Most ILS have 200 and 1//2 or better minimums. Some Cat 1 are 200 and 1800 RVR. Most GPS are either 250 or 300 and 1, although some go lower. On 7/31/2018 8:20 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV > approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons might be: > > 1. ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide > it's easier to proceed with it > 2. There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA > 3. Habit > > I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because they > are easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full approach > at smaller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly accurately > because of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my sense of things. > > Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary basement" > Watson > > On 7/30/2018 7:06 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm and >> needs maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of service >> and start process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for practice >> in our area had a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it was in >> service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of service, >> with all the structures still there. Keeping a single frequency >> transmitter with a single frequency tone generator running is not >> exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive. I guess, because of >> lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a DME while neither >> the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical horizontal paths >> require anything beyond a clock. >> >> On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>> >>> It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a >>> couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one >>> 15 miles from my home airport as well. We arent decommissioning all >>> That fast around me. >>> Tim >>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kellym wrote: >>>>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>>>> >>>>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>>>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>>>> Nostalgia mode off. >>>>> Kelly >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder >>>> to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find >>>> one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so >>>> far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. >>>> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still >>>> contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required >>>> ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and >>>> instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But >>>> I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were >>>> pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they >>>> wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up >>>> with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now >>>> DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, >>>> Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life >>>> cycle comment is correct. >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Bob Turner >>>> RV-10 QB >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 31, 2018
Why ILS? 1. Keep in practice. 2. Sometimes the minimums are a bit lower and it matters. Some time ago I took a (instrument) student to Chico (KCIC), planning the RNAV(gps) there. But ceilings lowered to 200. GPS minimums were 300. ILS got us in. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481984#481984 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2018
Agreed on the ease of RNAV. But, your #2 reason is my common reason. If I know the MDA is higher for RNAV, and the ceiling is low, I'll use the lowest approach I can get. But, in general, I do try to fly RNAV almost all the time. It'll be a sad day when the lions share of VORs are gone, and ILS's are pulled out, because once our enemies jam our GPS's, we're going to eventually have a very very bad day. It's really only a matter of time in today's terrorist warfare. GPS is great, but people love it so much they put all their eggs into that basket. Tim On 07/31/2018 10:20 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV > approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons might be: > > 1. ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide > it's easier to proceed with it > 2. There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA > 3. Habit > > I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because they > are easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full approach > at smaller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly accurately > because of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my sense of things. > > Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary basement" > Watson > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "tsts4" <tsts4us(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2018
Just add $.02 more, GPS is sometimes degraded and NOTAMed out of service. I like to have options when IFR, particularly if IMC, so part of that is practicing using those tools. Also Ive been in high traffic areas where the ILS was in use and asking for something else would have taken more time as ATC would have vectored me all over the place to get the sequencing right. Personally I dont find flying an ILS any more difficult than an LPV so I really dont get the question. -------- Todd Stovall aka Auburntsts on EAA, AOPA, and VAF RV-10 N728TT -- Flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481989#481989 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard
From: "LarryRosen" <N205EN(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2018
Does the outboard baffle tension rod go below the oil return lines (tubing) or between the engine and the oil return lines? Larry Still Building -------- Larry Rosen #40356 N205EN (reserved) <http> Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482005#482005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2018
Subject: Re: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard
I think the intention is for it to go under the oil lines, but if you can get it between the oil lines and the engine without the possibility of chaffing either, then I think youre fine. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:35 PM, LarryRosen wrote: > > > Does the outboard baffle tension rod go below the oil return lines (tubing) or between the engine and the oil return lines? > > Larry > Still Building > > -------- > Larry Rosen > #40356 > N205EN (reserved) > <http> > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482005#482005 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard
Date: Aug 02, 2018
Thanks I am struggling to get it to work either way lol. Sent from my mobile phone ________________________________ From: 16531611100n behalf of Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:52 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard I think the intention is for it to go under the oil lines, but if you can g et it between the oil lines and the engine without the possibility of chaff ing either, then I think you=92re fine. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:35 PM, LarryRosen wrote: > > > Does the outboard baffle tension rod go below the oil return lines (tubin g) or between the engine and the oil return lines? > > Larry > Still Building > > -------- > Larry Rosen > #40356 > N205EN (reserved) > <http> > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482005#482005 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2018
Keep in mind that there are necessary bends in the rods. BTW, if you have trouble threading the supplied rod, #6 threads-all rod works equally as well, providing you place some heat shrink or rubber tubing over the threads in areas that could rub oil tubes. On 8/1/2018 7:00 PM, Larry Rosen wrote: > Thanks > I am struggling to get it to work either way lol. > > Sent from my mobile phone > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* 16531611100n behalf of > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:52 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Baffle Tension Rod - Outboard > > I think the intention is for it to go under the oil lines, but if you > can get it between the oil lines and the engine without the possibility > of chaffing either, then I think youre fine. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > 352-427-0285 > jesse(at)saintaviation.com > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:35 PM, LarryRosen wrote: > > > > > > Does the outboard baffle tension rod go below the oil return lines > (tubing) or between the engine and the oil return lines? > > > > Larry > > Still Building > > > > -------- > > Larry Rosen > > #40356 > > N205EN (reserved) > > <http> > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482005#482005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > ========== > ========== > ========== > ========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Ignition Cable Question
Date: Aug 02, 2018
One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the entire lead? I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other parts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. Thanks, bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2018
Bob, I recall I had to construct a new lead. Fortunately I was able to borrow the tools and had the pieces needed. You are right, you can get a complete harness for one mag for about the same money and save a lot of aggravation. On 8/1/2018 7:12 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. > > Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the entire lead? > > I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. > > It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other parts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. > > Thanks, > > bob > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Corella <neilekins(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 02, 2018
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Hey Bob. I met you at the rv10 dinner for the first time. Any way Ive seen the nuts replaced in no time by an a&p friend of mine. I have never done it myself. But if you got any descent a&p on your airfield I bet he has some old nuts that are in great shape. He could probably do it for 20 - 25 bucks. Neil Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2018, at 10:12 PM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > > One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. > > Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the entire lead? > > I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. > > It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other parts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. > > Thanks, > > bob > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Date: Aug 03, 2018
Here's a summary of what I discovered over the last couple of days. Several people responded about just replacing the connector fittings at the end of the ignition cable. I also got a response from Joe Logie at Champ ion. His response was: Just the plug end needs replacement M6203 5/8-24 Spark Plug Hardware Kit, a ttached is my L-1499 showing how to do it and the required T-200 tool kit u sage. So just a $27 kit from Spruce to make the repair. However, you do need the $289 toolkit to perform the repair. This is the route I went. I figured the odds of this happening again justified the tool purchase. Plus it's st ill the least expensive option. Purchasing just a single replacement lead ( plus the tool ) cost as much as a half harness. Nobody stocks the half harnesses and the lead time is thirty days, which co sts $420. I found a couple places that stocked the full harnesses. QAA was the least expensive that I found for a Champion harness, which was $620. QAA also s ells Aero-Lite harnesses which are about $420. I found out from QAA that Aero-Lite harnesses are no longer in production and when their stock runs o ut, that's it. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Bob Leffler Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:12:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the ent ire lead? I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other pa rts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. Thanks, bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Corella <neilekins(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 03, 2018
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Bob. You must be a tool guy. That=99s 10 end replacements from a a@p w ho has the tools. But good info you send out. Thanks Neil Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > Here=99s a summary of what I discovered over the last couple of days . > > Several people responded about just replacing the connector fittings at th e end of the ignition cable. I also got a response from Joe Logie at Champ ion. His response was: > > Just the plug end needs replacement M6203 5/8-24 Spark Plug Hardware Kit, a ttached is my L-1499 showing how to do it and the required T-200 tool kit us age. > > So just a $27 kit from Spruce to make the repair. However, you do need th e $289 toolkit to perform the repair. This is the route I went. I figured t he odds of this happening again justified the tool purchase. Plus it=99 s still the least expensive option. > > Purchasing just a single replacement lead ( plus the tool ) cost as much a s a half harness. > > Nobody stocks the half harnesses and the lead time is thirty days, which c osts $420. > > I found a couple places that stocked the full harnesses. QAA was the leas t expensive that I found for a Champion harness, which was $620. QAA also s ells Aero-Lite harnesses which are about $420. I found out from QAA that A ero-Lite harnesses are no longer in production and when their stock runs out , that=99s it. > > > Get Outlook for iOS > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matroni cs.com> on behalf of Bob Leffler > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:12:52 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question > > > One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. > > Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the en tire lead? > > I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. > > It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other p arts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. > > Thanks, > > bob > > ========== > Email Forum - > -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Date: Aug 03, 2018
That and there=92s not an A&P on the field that I trust to do electrical wo rk. The local shop is actually being evicted at the end of the year, so th ere is a huge void at the moment. The airport won=92t let independents wor k unless they carry insurance with the airport as a co-insured. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Neil Corella Sent: Friday, August 3, 2018 6:34:27 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question Bob. You must be a tool guy. That=92s 10 end replacements from a a@p who h as the tools. But good info you send out. Thanks Neil Sent from my iPhone On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Bob Leffler > wrote: Here=92s a summary of what I discovered over the last couple of days. Several people responded about just replacing the connector fittings at the end of the ignition cable. I also got a response from Joe Logie at Champ ion. His response was: Just the plug end needs replacement M6203 5/8-24 Spark Plug Hardware Kit, a ttached is my L-1499 showing how to do it and the required T-200 tool kit u sage. So just a $27 kit from Spruce to make the repair. However, you do need the $289 toolkit to perform the repair. This is the route I went. I figured the odds of this happening again justified the tool purchase. Plus it=92s still the least expensive option. Purchasing just a single replacement lead ( plus the tool ) cost as much as a half harness. Nobody stocks the half harnesses and the lead time is thirty days, which co sts $420. I found a couple places that stocked the full harnesses. QAA was the least expensive that I found for a Champion harness, which was $620. QAA also s ells Aero-Lite harnesses which are about $420. I found out from QAA that Aero-Lite harnesses are no longer in production and when their stock runs o ut, that=92s it. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma tronics.com> > on behalf of Bob Leffler > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:12:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question b(at)thelefflers.com>> One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the ent ire lead? I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other pa rts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. Thanks, bob Email Forum - -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ums.matronics.com<http://ums.matronics.com> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - matronics.com<http://matronics.com> p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Corella <neilekins(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 03, 2018
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Yes. That=99s a problem. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 3, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > That and there=99s not an A&P on the field that I trust to do electr ical work. The local shop is actually being evicted at the end of the year, so there is a huge void at the moment. The airport won=99t let indep endents work unless they carry insurance with the airport as a co-insured. > > Get Outlook for iOS > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matroni cs.com> on behalf of Neil Corella > Sent: Friday, August 3, 2018 6:34:27 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question > > Bob. You must be a tool guy. That=99s 10 end replacements from a a@ p who has the tools. But good info you send out. Thanks Neil > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > >> Here=99s a summary of what I discovered over the last couple of day s. >> >> Several people responded about just replacing the connector fittings at t he end of the ignition cable. I also got a response from Joe Logie at Cham pion. His response was: >> >> Just the plug end needs replacement M6203 5/8-24 Spark Plug Hardware Kit, attached is my L-1499 showing how to do it and the required T-200 tool kit u sage. >> >> So just a $27 kit from Spruce to make the repair. However, you do need t he $289 toolkit to perform the repair. This is the route I went. I figured the odds of this happening again justified the tool purchase. Plus it =99s still the least expensive option. >> >> Purchasing just a single replacement lead ( plus the tool ) cost as much a s a half harness. >> >> Nobody stocks the half harnesses and the lead time is thirty days, which c osts $420. >> >> I found a couple places that stocked the full harnesses. QAA was the lea st expensive that I found for a Champion harness, which was $620. QAA also s ells Aero-Lite harnesses which are about $420. I found out from QAA that A ero-Lite harnesses are no longer in production and when their stock runs out , that=99s it. >> >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com> on behalf of Bob Leffler >> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:12:52 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question >> >> >> One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. >> >> Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the e ntire lead? >> >> I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. >> >> It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other p arts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. >> >> Thanks, >> >> bob >> >> ========== >> Email Forum - >> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ums.matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 03, 2018
Subject: Re: Ignition Cable Question
Good research Bob. I haven't bought a complete harness in awhile...obviously prices have multiplied a few orders of magnitude. While most airports prevent mechanics from working independently without insurance, most do allow you as the owner to bring your own mechanic to your plane and supervise said mechanic. Even better is when no money changes hands on the airport. I only "help" friends on the airport, mostly "supervising" if they need an A&P signature, or helping them as needed. I don't charge them, but they occasionally "help" me with the check at local greasy spoon. Maintenance on grant assurance airports gets fairly tricky. The airport can't restrict independents to any greater degree than whatever shop requirements are. Most I have seen, the shop capacity for repairs/inspections equals 10-20 percent of what is needed to keep based aircraft flying. The rest get fixed and signed off some how...probably by "hangar fairies and elves" or at other airports. Mechanic insurance is a figment of airport administrator's imagination. Over 15 years ago I was quoted $12,000/yr as an IA for $1M. Most airport documents call for $2M. If I were to do 100 annuals a year, I would have to add $120 per plane just to come out even. 100 annuals is essentially working full time, doing nothing else. I have no idea what the rates are today. I like working on planes, but at age 70, I am not going to bust my butt to do 100 annuals a year. Most IAs I know work uninsured, risking all their assets. Good thing most of this crowd can do their own work in the OBAM category. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 5:00 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > That and there=99s not an A&P on the field that I trust to do elect rical > work. The local shop is actually being evicted at the end of the year, s o > there is a huge void at the moment. The airport won=99t let indepe ndents > work unless they carry insurance with the airport as a co-insured. > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com matronics.com> on behalf of Neil Corella > *Sent:* Friday, August 3, 2018 6:34:27 AM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question > > Bob. You must be a tool guy. That=99s 10 end replacements from a a @p who > has the tools. But good info you send out. Thanks Neil > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Bob Leffler wrote: > > Here=99s a summary of what I discovered over the last couple of day s. > > Several people responded about just replacing the connector fittings at > the end of the ignition cable. I also got a response from Joe Logie at > Champion. His response was: > > Just the plug end needs replacement M6203 5/8-24 Spark Plug Hardware Kit, > attached is my L-1499 showing how to do it and the required T-200 tool ki t > usage. > > So just a $27 kit from Spruce to make the repair. However, you do need > the $289 toolkit to perform the repair. This is the route I went. I > figured the odds of this happening again justified the tool purchase. Pl us > it=99s still the least expensive option. > > Purchasing just a single replacement lead ( plus the tool ) cost as much > as a half harness. > > Nobody stocks the half harnesses and the lead time is thirty days, which > costs $420. > > I found a couple places that stocked the full harnesses. QAA was the > least expensive that I found for a Champion harness, which was $620. QAA > also sells Aero-Lite harnesses which are about $420. I found out from Q AA > that Aero-Lite harnesses are no longer in production and when their stock > runs out, that=99s it. > > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com matronics.com> on behalf of Bob Leffler > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:12:52 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: Ignition Cable Question > > > One of the nuts on an ignition lead became gulled. > > Is it possible just to replace the nut? Or do you have to replace the > entire lead? > > I saw Tim's post from a couple years ago. > > It looks like buying the replacement lead, the tookit, and all the other > parts cost about 80% of replacing both harnesses with new. > > Thanks, > > bob > > ========== > Email Forum - > -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: parish <parish(at)parishmoffitt.com>
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From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
It=99s certainly true that in some places the ILS minimums are a bit l ower. However, LPV approaches regularly have minimums as low as ILS serving t he same runway. Not true with RNAV or LNAV/VNAV minimums, but LPV is a diffe rent animal. Given the choice, if all things are equal, I=99d rather d o the LPV approach. I do, however, have dual ILS capability in my airplane, p ractice setting up and shooting ILS approaches, and would be uncomfortable w ithout ILS capability in my airplane. I still consider it necessary for full IFR capability. As Stein says, =9Cmy $.02 worth.=9D David Maib > On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:35 PM, parish wrote: > > Several years ago I had gone into Tallahassee in a CRJ200. The flight deck angle is quite low on that airplane. Delta went around twice in the MD80 an d we got right in(barely and right at minimums). The difference in flight de ck angle was the difference between landing and going around that day appara ntly. An RNAV would never work in this case and even 20 feet can make a diff erence between landing and going someplace else. > > I always say it is better to have it and not need it rather than to need i t and not have it! > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> > Date: 7/31/18 12:33 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Re: Antenna locations > > > Why ILS? > 1. Keep in practice. > 2. Sometimes the minimums are a bit lower and it matters. Some time ago I t ook a (instrument) student to Chico (KCIC), planning the RNAV(gps) there. Bu t ceilings lowered to 200=C3=A2=C2=C2=99. GPS minimums were 300=C3=A2=C2 =C2=99. ILS got us in. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481984#481984 > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
Another point is that few small airports have an ILS on both ends of a runwa y, but if they have an ILS, they often have LPV=99s at both ends. With winds not favoring the ILS runway, LPV minimums are hugely lower than ILS c ircling minimums. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 5, 2018, at 8:55 PM, David Maib wrote: > > It=99s certainly true that in some places the ILS minimums are a bit lower. However, LPV approaches regularly have minimums as low as ILS servin g the same runway. Not true with RNAV or LNAV/VNAV minimums, but LPV is a di fferent animal. Given the choice, if all things are equal, I=99d rathe r do the LPV approach. I do, however, have dual ILS capability in my airplan e, practice setting up and shooting ILS approaches, and would be uncomfortab le without ILS capability in my airplane. I still consider it necessary for f ull IFR capability. > As Stein says, =9Cmy $.02 worth.=9D > > David Maib > > >> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:35 PM, parish wrote: >> >> Several years ago I had gone into Tallahassee in a CRJ200. The flight dec k angle is quite low on that airplane. Delta went around twice in the MD80 a nd we got right in(barely and right at minimums). The difference in flight d eck angle was the difference between landing and going around that day appar antly. An RNAV would never work in this case and even 20 feet can make a dif ference between landing and going someplace else. >> >> I always say it is better to have it and not need it rather than to need i t and not have it! >> >> >> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> >> Date: 7/31/18 12:33 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Antenna locations >> >> >> Why ILS? >> 1. Keep in practice. >> 2. Sometimes the minimums are a bit lower and it matters. Some time ago I took a (instrument) student to Chico (KCIC), planning the RNAV(gps) there. B ut ceilings lowered to 200=C3=A2=C2=C2=99. GPS minimums were 300=C3=A2=C2 =C2=99. ILS got us in. >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics================= ========================== =========a href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10 -List">http://www.matronics================= ========= &nbs=========== ========================== ========================== ========================== ===============p; -Matt D ralle, List Admi==================== ========================== ===== >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Well, I just had a chance to once and for all make the case to myself that I need to install a good primary Nav antenna. Flying the ILS 28 into KAGC, my nemesis approach, I had the perfect opportunity to test my ILS situation. I could clearly see that my wingtip Nav antenna on this particular approach does not accurately pickup the LOC signal. Instead I missed the inbound turn again but this time I could see that the needle was just waving around at that point. Then I got the needles centered and flew them. I could see that I was headed well to the left of the runway all the way down to DA. On the other hand I could intercept the GS and then fly the Flight Path Marker (FPM) right down to DA and even the touchdown point with the LOC needle indicating right 2-3 dots all the way down. My wingtip antenna works at most airports where I've flown an ILS but at KAGC, it puts me in the weeds. I'm about to remove my fin and retrofit a Nav antenna at the top. Case closed, work to begin. On 7/31/2018 11:20 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV > approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons > might be: > > 1. ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide > it's easier to proceed with it > 2. There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA > 3. Habit > > I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because > they are easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full > approach at smaller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly > accurately because of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my > sense of things. > > Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary > basement" Watson > > On 7/30/2018 7:06 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm >> and needs maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of >> service and start process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for >> practice in our area had a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it >> was in service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of >> service, with all the structures still there. Keeping a single >> frequency transmitter with a single frequency tone generator running >> is not exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive. I guess, >> because of lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a DME >> while neither the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical >> horizontal paths require anything beyond a clock. >> >> On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>> >>> It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH >>> a couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is >>> one 15 miles from my home airport as well. We arent decommissioning >>> all >>> That fast around me. >>> Tim >>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kellym wrote: >>>>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>>>> >>>>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>>>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>>>> Nostalgia mode off. >>>>> Kelly >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good >>>> reminder to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try >>>> to find one these days. I currently have two instrument students >>>> who, so far, have never heard a MB. There arent any left around here. >>>> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still >>>> contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an ADF required >>>> ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and >>>> instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But >>>> I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were >>>> pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they >>>> wouldnt have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended >>>> up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is >>>> now DME required. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years >>>> ago, Id be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year >>>> life cycle comment is correct. >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Bob Turner >>>> RV-10 QB >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
Wingtip NAV antennas are only as good as the install. I make my own to opti mize the available space in the wingtip, and tune the antenna using an anten na analyzer (a must have shared tool for any EAA chapter). I recommend the s ame for all RVs. Performance exceeds all demands; VOR/LOC/ILS. Following this approach, I do not believe an RV would ever need an external NAV antenna. Photo is an antenna in the tuning process I made for an RV-14A. Notice how f ar it extends into the wingtip. The antenna stays mounted to the rib and th e wingtip slides over it. Carl > On Aug 6, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Well, I just had a chance to once and for all make the case to myself that I need to install a good primary Nav antenna. Flying the ILS 28 into KAGC, my nemesis approach, I had the perfect opportunity to test my ILS situation . > > I could clearly see that my wingtip Nav antenna on this particular approac h does not accurately pickup the LOC signal. Instead I missed the inbound t urn again but this time I could see that the needle was just waving around a t that point. Then I got the needles centered and flew them. I could see t hat I was headed well to the left of the runway all the way down to DA. On t he other hand I could intercept the GS and then fly the Flight Path Marker ( FPM) right down to DA and even the touchdown point with the LOC needle indi cating right 2-3 dots all the way down. > > My wingtip antenna works at most airports where I've flown an ILS but at K AGC, it puts me in the weeds. I'm about to remove my fin and retrofit a Nav antenna at the top. Case closed, work to begin. > >> On 7/31/2018 11:20 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >> So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons might be: >> ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide it's e asier to proceed with it >> There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA >> Habit >> I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because they a re easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full approach at sm aller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly accurately be cause of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my sense of things. >> >> Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary basement" W atson >> >>> On 7/30/2018 7:06 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> >>> Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm and n eeds maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of service and st art process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for practice in our area h ad a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it was in service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of service, with all the structures sti ll there. Keeping a single frequency transmitter with a single frequency ton e generator running is not exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive . I guess, because of lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a D ME while neither the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical horizontal paths require anything beyond a clock. >>> >>>> On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>>> >>>> It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a c ouple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one 15 mile s from my home airport as well. We aren=99t decommissioning all >>>> That fast around me. >>>> Tim >>>> >>>>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kellym wrote: >>>>>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>>>>> >>>>>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>>>>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>>>>> Nostalgia mode off. >>>>>> Kelly >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder t o not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find one these d ays. I currently have two instrument students who, so far, have never heard a MB. There aren=99t any left around here. >>>>> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still contemplating a vionics choices. My home field had an =9CADF required=9D ILS. I s eriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and instead buying a us ed ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But I found that used ADF anten nas were hard to find - people were pulling their ADFs but leaving the anten nas, I presume so they wouldn=99t have to patch and paint the hole lef t behind. So I ended up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now =9CDME required=9D. So now, if I had gone the AD F route 10 years ago, I=99d be looking at a major panel upgrade. I thi nk your ten year life cycle comment is correct. >>>>> >>>>> -------- >>>>> Bob Turner >>>>> RV-10 QB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Read this topic online here: >>>>> >>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Abel <mikeabel900(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Yes I had a similar problem (ILS/LOC) with my =9Cexperimental=9D copper tape NAV antenna installed in the front of my cabin just above the top of my windshield in my RV10 (hidden under the upholstery). I finally put a regular rami antenna under the tailbone of the airplane and it worked flawlessly. > On Aug 6, 2018, at 8:49 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Wingtip NAV antennas are only as good as the install. I make my own to optimize the available space in the wingtip, and tune the antenna using an antenna analyzer (a must have shared tool for any EAA chapter). I recommend the same for all RVs. > > Performance exceeds all demands; VOR/LOC/ILS. Following this approach, I do not believe an RV would ever need an external NAV antenna. > > Photo is an antenna in the tuning process I made for an RV-14A. Notice how far it extends into the wingtip. The antenna stays mounted to the rib and the wingtip slides over it. > > Carl > > > On Aug 6, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Bill Watson > wrote: > >> Well, I just had a chance to once and for all make the case to myself that I need to install a good primary Nav antenna. Flying the ILS 28 into KAGC, my nemesis approach, I had the perfect opportunity to test my ILS situation. >> >> I could clearly see that my wingtip Nav antenna on this particular approach does not accurately pickup the LOC signal. Instead I missed the inbound turn again but this time I could see that the needle was just waving around at that point. Then I got the needles centered and flew them. I could see that I was headed well to the left of the runway all the way down to DA. On the other hand I could intercept the GS and then fly the Flight Path Marker (FPM) right down to DA and even the touchdown point with the LOC needle indicating right 2-3 dots all the way down. >> >> My wingtip antenna works at most airports where I've flown an ILS but at KAGC, it puts me in the weeds. I'm about to remove my fin and retrofit a Nav antenna at the top. Case closed, work to begin. >> >> On 7/31/2018 11:20 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >>> So I ask you all; why are you flying the ILS instead of the RNAV approach that I assume serves the same runways? Possible reasons might be: >>> ATIS identifies the ILS as the approach in use and you just decide it's easier to proceed with it >>> There is a 10-20-40-80 foot difference in DA >>> Habit >>> I ask this because I find the RNAV approaches easier to fly because they are easier to setup avionics wise, at least when flying a full approach at smaller airports. And they are definitely easier to fly accurately because of the lack of RF anomalies, at least that's my sense of things. >>> >>> Bill "sent from my imaginary IBM 370 mainframe in my imaginary basement" Watson >>> >>> On 7/30/2018 7:06 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>>> >>>> Typical scenario is the first time a marker beacon goes into alarm and needs maintenance or part replaced they simply notam it out of service and start process to de-commission. The only nearby ILS for practice in our area had a middle marker for the first 10-15 years it was in service. Now, for the last 10 years or so it has been out of service, with all the structures still there. Keeping a single frequency transmitter with a single frequency tone generator running is not exactly rocket science nor particularly expensive. I guess, because of lack of the beacon, the Loc only approach requires a DME while neither the ILS nor the VOR approach that have identical horizontal paths require anything beyond a clock. >>>> >>>> On 7/30/2018 2:49 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It must be region dependent. (ILS with MB). I just flew one at OSH a couple weeks ago and flew over it a couple days ago, and there is one 15 miles from my home airport as well. We aren=99t decommissioning all >>>>> That fast around me. >>>>> Tim >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kellym wrote: >>>>>>> Yes. I loved both outer and middle markers, ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But technology moves on and has us replacing >>>>>>> electronics every 10-15 years instead of every 30 years. >>>>>>> Nostalgia mode off. >>>>>>> Kelly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I loved the MBs too, especially the MM, since it was a good reminder to not fixate just when the workload was highest. But try to find one these days. I currently have two instrument students who, so far, have never heard a MB. There aren=99t any left around here. >>>>>> As to the 10 year life cycle: Ten years ago I was still contemplating avionics choices. My home field had an =9CADF required=9D ILS. I seriously considered not buying a GPS (to save money) and instead buying a used ADF, which were dirt cheap and plentiful. But I found that used ADF antennas were hard to find - people were pulling their ADFs but leaving the antennas, I presume so they wouldn=99t have to patch and paint the hole left behind. So I ended up with a 420W. Today, 10 years later, the LOM is gone; the ILS is now =9CDME required=9D. So now, if I had gone the ADF route 10 years ago, I=99d be looking at a major panel upgrade. I think your ten year life cycle comment is correct. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Bob Turner >>>>>> RV-10 QB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Read this topic online here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967 <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481967#481967> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
I can see where you could get a glide slope antenna above the windshield. I seriously doubt you could get enough length for a VOR/LOC antenna there. I have not experienced any problems so far with any ILS with my Bob Archer nav antennas. One in each wingtip so that my dual ILS units do not have to share via a splitter(which reduces signal strength by 50%) On 8/6/2018 9:40 AM, Michael Abel wrote: > Yes I had a similar problem (ILS/LOC) with my experimentalcopper tape > NAV antenna installed in the front of my cabin just above the top of my > windshield in my RV10 (hidden under the upholstery). > I finally put a regular rami antenna under the tailbone of the airplane > and it worked flawlessly. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Before giving up, see if some local ham radio operator will have a look. Some things that seem okay for normal wiring definitely are not okay at these frequencies. For example: I have seen Archer antennas installed with the ground leg 8 away from the end rib, and connected to the rib with a single 8 long wire; I have seen one installed inverted (e.g., the radiating element attached to the rib, the ground leg free in the wingtip). Even these installations worked to some degree, with the pilots blaming poor performance on the antenna. Look at Carls photo. Notice how the leading edge of the antenna is back, away from the landing light and its heat shielding foil. Can you post a photo similar? Another possibility is that the localizer at KAGC is at 109.1 MHz- close to the low frequency end of the nav frequencies. If your antenna is tuned to the higher end, it wont perform as well at 109. See Carls post about an analyzer. That said, I am totally perplexed as to how an antenna issue can give you a fly left indication (ignoring the fact that the antenna is 15 off the aircraft centerline). The receiver just looks at the relative strength of two different modulation frequencies. There is nothing in any antenna that should cause one signal to be different from the other. And if the reception is just poor, the receiver should flag. One thing you could try: my old C182 POH mentioned that sometimes, if the prop rpm was very close to the modulation frequency, it could cause some strange effects. I dont see how a wingtip antenna could be affected, but you could try this approach again, at a 100 rpm different prop setting. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482122#482122 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has anybody else had a similar experience? Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5 filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into Sacramento, so no surprise [wait for another pause in radio traffic] Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and airline traffic] Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk code. After that, thinking I had been forgotten: Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on 123.7: Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my IFR flight plan to KHHR. Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. Advise ready to copy. Me: Ready to copy: [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? Norcal: Try Flight Service. Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. FSS: Say request Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR flight plan. FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. Me: Roger. Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. There is nothing more we can do for you [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland Center] Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal approach. Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the clearance. Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me scratching my head. Any thoughts? Dan Masys ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Derk <cderk(at)icloud.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Sounds to me that it was just someone trying to be difficult. That said, when IFR Ive never heard anyone say they wanted to open an IFR flight plan. I always say Id like to pick up my IFR clearance. Once I read back my clearance its assumed that Im now in the system no further action is required. Never had an issue this way. > On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > > Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday > trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has > anybody else had a similar experience? > > Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and > routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5 > filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne > (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for > some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight > plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after > departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. > > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into > Sacramento, so no surprise > [wait for another pause in radio traffic] > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. > [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and > airline traffic] > Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk > code. > After that, thinking I had been forgotten: > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. > > No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to > talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. > > Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on > 123.7: > Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. > Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my > IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. > Advise ready to copy. > Me: Ready to copy: > [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] > > Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? > Norcal: Try Flight Service. > Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? > Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. > [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] > Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. > FSS: Say request > Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR > flight plan. > FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight > plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. > Me: Roger. > Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service > and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. > Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. > There is nothing more we can do for you > > [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland > Center] > Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. > Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal > approach. > Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). > Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. > Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had > not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the > clearance. > Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. > > Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning > new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me > scratching my head. Any thoughts? > > Dan Masys > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
I too am confused. What did you want them to do? What do you think it means to "open" an IFR flight plan? The purpose of an IFR flight plan is to help get you a clearance. If you received an IFR clearance, you're good to go, there's nothing more to be done. If you were operating under an IFR clearance, and then asked another controller after a handoff to "open your flight plan" I can imagine that they would be very confused. On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience > yesterday > trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has > anybody else had a similar experience? > > Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and > routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August > 5 > filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne > (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for > some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight > plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 > after > departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. > > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into > Sacramento, so no surprise > [wait for another pause in radio traffic] > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. > [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and > airline traffic] > Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk > code. > After that, thinking I had been forgotten: > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. > > No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going > to > talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. > > Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on > 123.7: > Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. > Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my > IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. > Advise ready to copy. > Me: Ready to copy: > [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] > > Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? > Norcal: Try Flight Service. > Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? > Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. > [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] > Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. > FSS: Say request > Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR > flight plan. > FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR > flight > plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. > Me: Roger. > Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight > Service > and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. > Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. > There is nothing more we can do for you > > [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland > Center] > Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. > Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal > approach. > Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). > Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. > Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they > had > not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the > clearance. > Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. > > Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning > new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has > me > scratching my head. Any thoughts? > > Dan Masys > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
I=99m thinking the same thing. I file an IFR flight plan so I can get a clearance. I=99ve never asked to open my flight plan. I call and say, =9Coff X35 looking for my Ifr.=9D They say, =9Ccleared... =9D and that=99s it. I=99m filed, cleared and done. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:32 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > > I too am confused. What did you want them to do? What do you think it me ans to "open" an IFR flight plan? > > The purpose of an IFR flight plan is to help get you a clearance. If you r eceived an IFR clearance, you're good to go, there's nothing more to be done . If you were operating under an IFR clearance, and then asked another cont roller after a handoff to "open your flight plan" I can imagine that they wo uld be very confused. > >> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote : >> >> Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yester day >> trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) h as >> anybody else had a similar experience? >> >> Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and >> routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday Augus t 5 >> filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne >> (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for >> some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' fligh t >> plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 af ter >> departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. >> >> Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD >> Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into >> Sacramento, so no surprise >> [wait for another pause in radio traffic] >> Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD >> Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. >> [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and >> airline traffic] >> Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk >> code. >> After that, thinking I had been forgotten: >> Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. >> >> No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to >> talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. >> >> Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on >> 123.7: >> Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD >> Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. >> Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my >> IFR flight plan to KHHR. >> Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight pla n. >> Advise ready to copy. >> Me: Ready to copy: >> [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] >> >> Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? >> Norcal: Try Flight Service. >> Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? >> Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. >> [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] >> Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. >> FSS: Say request >> Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR >> flight plan. >> FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR fli ght >> plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. >> Me: Roger. >> Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Serv ice >> and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. >> Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. >> There is nothing more we can do for you >> >> [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland >> Center] >> Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11 k. >> Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. >> Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal >> approach. >> Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). >> Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. >> Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they h ad >> not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the >> clearance. >> Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. >> >> Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learni ng >> new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me >> scratching my head. Any thoughts? >> >> Dan Masys >> >> >> >> ========================= >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi gator?RV10-List >> ========================= >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========================= >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========================= >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========================= >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Other responses are correct that a clearance does activate your flight plan. IMHO, your first call should have been "Experimental RV104LD off Lincoln request clearance." While they should have had a strip on you already, your asking for clearance tells them they are supposed to have you and respond to you. Your call tells them who you are, where you are and what you want, succinctly. I don't know the area, whether you could have gotten clearance on the ground or not, nor how you filed, perhaps for ATC to expect your clearance request at an airport fix. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience > yesterday > trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has > anybody else had a similar experience? > > Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and > routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August > 5 > filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne > (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for > some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight > plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 > after > departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. > > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into > Sacramento, so no surprise > [wait for another pause in radio traffic] > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. > [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and > airline traffic] > Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk > code. > After that, thinking I had been forgotten: > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. > > No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going > to > talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. > > Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on > 123.7: > Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. > Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my > IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. > Advise ready to copy. > Me: Ready to copy: > [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] > > Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? > Norcal: Try Flight Service. > Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? > Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. > [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] > Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. > FSS: Say request > Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR > flight plan. > FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR > flight > plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. > Me: Roger. > Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight > Service > and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. > Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. > There is nothing more we can do for you > > [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland > Center] > Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. > Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal > approach. > Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). > Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. > Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they > had > not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the > clearance. > Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. > > Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning > new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has > me > scratching my head. Any thoughts? > > Dan Masys > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Steve Farner <farnersteve(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should have asked for and received a clearance. But, it should have been clear to ATC what Dan was trying to do. It seems like they made his flight unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why. Steve Farner On 8/6/2018 9:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday > trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has > anybody else had a similar experience? > > Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and > routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5 > filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne > (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for > some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight > plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after > departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. > > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into > Sacramento, so no surprise > [wait for another pause in radio traffic] > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. > [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and > airline traffic] > Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk > code. > After that, thinking I had been forgotten: > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. > > No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to > talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. > > Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on > 123.7: > Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. > Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my > IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. > Advise ready to copy. > Me: Ready to copy: > [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] > > Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? > Norcal: Try Flight Service. > Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? > Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. > [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] > Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. > FSS: Say request > Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR > flight plan. > FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight > plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. > Me: Roger. > Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service > and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. > Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. > There is nothing more we can do for you > > [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland > Center] > Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. > Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal > approach. > Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). > Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. > Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had > not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the > clearance. > Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. > > Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning > new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me > scratching my head. Any thoughts? > > Dan Masys > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
Like everyone else, Im a bit puzzled. One possibility: ATC does not get everything thats on your flight plan. Perhaps the controller thought somehow that you wanted to change your destination contact, or similar. For that youd need to talk to FSS. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482153#482153 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: "nukeflyboy" <flymoore(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
To avoid lengthy clearance read-backs on an ATC frequency I get my clearance on the ground. The number is 888-766-8267 if no ground/clearance delivery frequency is available, like my non-towered airport. You get a window to take off and then contact ATC in the air. All you say is N1234 at 3000 climbing to XXXX because you are in the system. File with ForeFlight and you will get an email back with the real clearance ATC will issue. Use this info to amend your clearance (back in ForeFlight) so when you call, cleared as filed is what you get. -------- Dave Moore RV-6 built and sold RV-10 built and flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482154#482154 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Just the words used, as others have noted. Open my flight plan is almost certainly the problem. Ill usually say something like NXXXX just departed KXXX northeast bound climbing through 2000 squawking 1200, request IFR clearance to KXXX. They almost always come back quickly with a squawk code and once they have a positive ID on you they give you your clearance and youre on your way. Obviously if the frequency is very busy, I shorten that initial call substantially. Interestingly, years ago flying in the Army, we were required to call Flight Service after airborne on an IFR flight and open the flight plan. Powers that be said that guaranteed search and rescue if you didnt show up. Of course you had to remember to close it with Flight Service too. Definitely a belt and suspenders approach. At some point it was decided that we could trust ATC to sound the alarm if they lost us. It did make sense if you were flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace, but that was pretty rare. David Maib > On Aug 7, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > Like everyone else, Im a bit puzzled. One possibility: ATC does not get everything thats on your flight plan. Perhaps the controller thought somehow that you wanted to change your destination contact, or similar. For that youd need to talk to FSS. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482153#482153 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
On 08/07/2018 10:33 AM, Steve Farner wrote: > > Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should > have asked for and received a clearance. But, it should have been clear > to ATC what Dan was trying to do. It seems like they made his flight > unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why. I don't think they were trying to make things difficult, I think they were genuinely confused about what he wanted. After he received his clearance, he asked them to "open his flight plan". I asked in my response, and Dan hasn't answered, but I'm not sure what it is he wanted from them. I don't know, and they didn't either. I think this is summed up pretty well by the controller who said, "I don't understand what you are requesting. There is nothing more we can do for you." I've actually thought about this interaction a bit since it was posted last night, and I've got a few more comments. First: Dan, kudos for coming here and asking for clarification about what happened. This is what good pilots do. I think we've explained why the controller was confused, but I'd love to know what you were asking for and why after you received your clearance. I might be a professional pilot and a flight instructor, but I haven't been flying for 30+ years, and the FAA isn't very good about teaching us how things were way back when. It's possible that something significant has changed since your got your instrument rating, and I can't help the next confused person if I don't know where you're coming from. Second: As pilots, I think we all need to strive for standard radio calls. It's extremely rare that that I hear non-standard phraseology from ATC, but I hear it from fellow pilots (and sometimes myself) every time I fly. GA pilots tend to be worse than airline pilots, but I hear nonstandard nonsense from airline pilots all the time. Some of them are pet peeves. I don't know why, for instance, you feel the need to respond to "squawk 4224" with "4224 in the box." It's non-standard, it takes longer to say than "squawk 4224", but I suspect everyone knows what it means and in the grand scheme of things probably doesn't matter. On the other hand: "Cessna 123's taking the active" is downright terrible, and I hear it all the time. (1) What do you think the active is? (2) Where are you departing? (3) Are you taking off, or just holding in position? Dan's case would be alleviated by using the phrasing listed in the AIM. >From Section 5-2-5: When requesting clearance for the IFR portion of a VFR/IFR flight, request such clearance prior to the fix where IFR operation is proposed to commence in sufficient time to avoid delay. Use the following phraseology: EXAMPLE Los Angeles center, Apache Six One Papa, VFR estimating Paso Robles VOR at three two, one thousand five hundred, request IFR to Bakersfield. Now, I would guess that I've heard that phraseology exactly zero times. More common is probably something along the lines of, "LA Center, Apache Six One Papa is off of pasa robles at three thousand, looking to pick up our IFR to Bakesfield." Part of that is probably because the response to the first request will almost certainly have been, "Apache Six One Papa, do you have a flight plan filed?" The less standard request of "pick up our IFR" implies you have a flight plan in the system. Either one would have worked. But "opening a flight plan" is phraseology that's generally reserved for VFR flight plans. Your IFR flight plan is activated (as such) when you receive a clearance, so I don't think anyone was trying to be difficult here, but rather simply genuinely confused. Early in your transcript, you mentioned that you were ignored. I think this has happened to all of us flying VFR in busy airspace. Sometimes controllers are saturated. I do think that controllers are more likely to ignore a non-standard radio call from VFR traffic than a standard radio call. Slow-speaking or non-standard calls from pilots indicate that a busy frequency is going to get a lot worse if the ATC answers you. There's nothing wrong with the call you typed, but I have no idea how it sounded to the controller on the other end. All this to say: if we could make a little more effort to make radio calls like the AIM suggests we do, I think everyone would be better off. We might find that ATC treats us a little better, and we're probably all safer. Berck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
I can try to add a little background, as I worked a few years between FSS, tower and radar approach control in the 70's, back when FSS and non-radar were common, and one had to pay a lot of attention about how you were going to get into IFR system if there wasn't a departure procedure from your airport, or there wasn't radio reception, because exactly zero pilots had mobile phones and at least in the area I worked, making a landline call, then jumping in plane to make clearance void time wasn't too practical. Issue for controller was whether you could reach controlled airspace providing your own terrain clearance, and when you got there, whether you would conflict with other IFR traffic. A VFR departure to get IFR should make the first call as N123 off Timbuktu request clearance to Podunk. That gives me a clue you might have filed and I should have a departure strip. If I see nothing I have data man call center, and I ask you if you filed. That assumes you are calling correct sector for your clearance. If I am busy, the rest will be a standby for clearance, or telling you to contact FSS to see if your flight plan has been forwarded. Much of that no longer exists with computers. No more typing flight plan into teletype to go to center, no more calling center on landline to get your clearance, etc. Old days you could expect an hour for processing and transmission of flight plan to correct sector or departure tower/approach control. I did not particularly like calls in the dark, not telling me what you wanted and where you were. Just mean I had to answer your call and hope you don't start with an IFR student type request tying up my frequency. Often good to consult with FBO for standard IFR departure procedures if you are unfamiliar with departing a particular airport. It can get weird. Like Claremont County in Cinncinati...the last time I went out of there IFR, the only place on airport you could get reliable radio with approach control was mid-field. With low ceiling, had to wait for aircraft on approach, even though he broke out 2 miles out, and they couldn't release me until arrival remembered to cancel after landing. Then taxi to end of runway and launch within void time. Sent from my IBM-360 main frame On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > > On 08/07/2018 10:33 AM, Steve Farner wrote: > > > > Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should > > have asked for and received a clearance. But, it should have been clea r > > to ATC what Dan was trying to do. It seems like they made his flight > > unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why. > > I don't think they were trying to make things difficult, I think they > were genuinely confused about what he wanted. After he received his > clearance, he asked them to "open his flight plan". I asked in my > response, and Dan hasn't answered, but I'm not sure what it is he wanted > from them. I don't know, and they didn't either. I think this is > summed up pretty well by the controller who said, "I don't understand > what you are requesting. There is nothing more we can do for you." > > I've actually thought about this interaction a bit since it was posted > last night, and I've got a few more comments. > > First: Dan, kudos for coming here and asking for clarification about > what happened. This is what good pilots do. I think we've explained why > the controller was confused, but I'd love to know what you were asking > for and why after you received your clearance. I might be a > professional pilot and a flight instructor, but I haven't been flying > for 30+ years, and the FAA isn't very good about teaching us how things > were way back when. It's possible that something significant has > changed since your got your instrument rating, and I can't help the next > confused person if I don't know where you're coming from. > > Second: As pilots, I think we all need to strive for standard radio > calls. It's extremely rare that that I hear non-standard phraseology > from ATC, but I hear it from fellow pilots (and sometimes myself) every > time I fly. GA pilots tend to be worse than airline pilots, but I hear > nonstandard nonsense from airline pilots all the time. Some of them are > pet peeves. I don't know why, for instance, you feel the need to > respond to "squawk 4224" with "4224 in the box." It's non-standard, it > takes longer to say than "squawk 4224", but I suspect everyone knows > what it means and in the grand scheme of things probably doesn't matter. > > On the other hand: "Cessna 123's taking the active" is downright > terrible, and I hear it all the time. (1) What do you think the active > is? (2) Where are you departing? (3) Are you taking off, or just > holding in position? > > Dan's case would be alleviated by using the phrasing listed in the AIM. > >From Section 5-2-5: > > When requesting clearance for the IFR portion of a VFR/IFR flight, > request such clearance prior to the fix where IFR operation is proposed > to commence in sufficient time to avoid delay. Use the following > phraseology: > EXAMPLE=88=92 > =9CLos Angeles center, Apache Six One Papa, VFR estimating > Paso Robles VOR at three two, one thousand five > hundred, request IFR to Bakersfield.=9D > > Now, I would guess that I've heard that phraseology exactly zero times. > More common is probably something along the lines of, "LA Center, Apache > Six One Papa is off of pasa robles at three thousand, looking to pick up > our IFR to Bakesfield." > > Part of that is probably because the response to the first request will > almost certainly have been, "Apache Six One Papa, do you have a flight > plan filed?" The less standard request of "pick up our IFR" implies you > have a flight plan in the system. > > Either one would have worked. But "opening a flight plan" is > phraseology that's generally reserved for VFR flight plans. Your IFR > flight plan is activated (as such) when you receive a clearance, so I > don't think anyone was trying to be difficult here, but rather simply > genuinely confused. > > Early in your transcript, you mentioned that you were ignored. I think > this has happened to all of us flying VFR in busy airspace. Sometimes > controllers are saturated. I do think that controllers are more likely > to ignore a non-standard radio call from VFR traffic than a standard > radio call. Slow-speaking or non-standard calls from pilots indicate > that a busy frequency is going to get a lot worse if the ATC answers > you. There's nothing wrong with the call you typed, but I have no idea > how it sounded to the controller on the other end. > > All this to say: if we could make a little more effort to make radio > calls like the AIM suggests we do, I think everyone would be better off. > We might find that ATC treats us a little better, and we're probably > all safer. > > Berck =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 08, 2018
Some thoughts below from an east coast '10 Driver... > > Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and > routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5 > filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne > (KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for > some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight > plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after > departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k. > > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into > Sacramento, so no surprise > [wait for another pause in radio traffic] Given the busy frequency/traffic, I would be concerned that the controller thinks I'm a VFR pilot looking for flight following or clearance into a Class B or C. I would be particularly concerned if I didn't know from experience that this is the frequency where they expect IFR departures from satellite airports. So my next call would be something like "Norcal dparture, experimental 104 Lima Delta IFR Hawthorne" > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by. > [Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and > airline traffic] > Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk > code. > After that, thinking I had been forgotten: I'm thinking that the other RV is VFR and got a squawk for FF and now I"m semi-convinced that the controller is assuming the same of me. > Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD. > > No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to > talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson. I've had this happen to me before but only when VFR getting VFR services. Rather than trying to teach a lesson my guess is that they are using the rule book to manage their workload on a busy day. Bottom line is that they assume for whatever reasons that you are VFR traffic. > > Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on > 123.7: > Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD > Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. Assuming that 3636 was the actual code, anyone know whether this is a VFR or IFR code for NORCAL ATC? I've noticed that different ranges are used for the two types, at least in certain areas. > Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my > IFR flight plan to KHHR. I would say "4LimaDelta departed Lincoln IFR Hawthorne" . The "open my plan" is VFR terminology and I'm guessing confusing for some, but no real problem here. > Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan. > Advise ready to copy. This controller was confused by the 'open plan' terminology. I'm guessing that 3636 was a VFR code, did they change your code when giving you the clearance? I'd also guess that she is looking at your filed plan on a strip at this point and all is good. > Me: Ready to copy: > [Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully] Everything is fine now, task complete. Everything from this point on is unnecessary, confused and confusing. > > Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan? > Norcal: Try Flight Service. > Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area? > Norcal: Negative, don't have that information. > [I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS] > Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD. > FSS: Say request > Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR > flight plan. > FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight > plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal. > Me: Roger. > Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service > and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that. > Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting. > There is nothing more we can do for you > > [Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland > Center] > Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k. > Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR. > Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal > approach. > Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events). > Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE. > Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had > not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the > clearance. > Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake. > > Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning > new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me > scratching my head. Any thoughts? > > Dan Masys > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 08, 2018
Okay guys, you've re-opened the case for me. Given how much I'd like to avoid the fin project and how much I'd like stay with an Archer style antenna, I'm going to do a couple of things: 1. I'm going to remove my splitter and see how it works as a dedicated antenna 2. I'll try to take pics of my Archer installation and share them here and see what you think. 3. I'll try to find an antenna analyzer, which I assume is different than the standing wave thing one uses on transmitters. 4. Since I've bought 2 Archers already I won't feel guilty building a copy, particularly RV10 optimized copies, for both wing tips. Hints and tips here are more than welcome. Bill "hoping he'll have a Comant Nav antenna for sell" Watson --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 08, 2018
I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought it was the 1st RV calling back. As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0. Most aircraft going beyond one facility get either tower enroute or center code. They generally start with a digit other than 0. In old, pre-computer days when you could only see a difference in spacing between slashes to know which code....approach would use 0300 or 0400 for IFR arrival or departure. 0100 for flight following. It helped keep track of which target was which and told other sectors what you were doing with the aircraft. I agree the initial call should include something to the effect of requesting IFR clearance with destination. On 8/8/2018 1:17 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Some thoughts below from an east coast '10 Driver... >> Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk >> code. >> After that, thinking I had been forgotten: > I'm thinking that the other RV is VFR and got a squawk for FF and now >> Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD >> Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636. > Assuming that 3636 was the actual code, anyone know whether this is a > VFR or IFR code for NORCAL ATC? I've noticed that different ranges are > used for the two types, at least in certain areas. >> Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my >> IFR flight plan to KHHR. > I would say "4LimaDelta departed Lincoln IFR Hawthorne" . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 08, 2018
3. The "analyzer" is a standing wave thingy (Standing wave reflectometer) except that it also includes a low power, tunable transmitter. 4. To successfully clone the Archer you must copy as exactly as you can the coupling capacitor (the length, width, thickness, and material of the little parallel plate capacitor and the dielectric material). -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482196#482196 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Date: Aug 08, 2018
Subject: Re: Antenna locations
This is an antenna analyzer that will do everything you need - and is the fi rst thing I grab when someone says they have a comm or nav problem: https:// www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/mfj-259c-530-khz-230-mhz-antenna-s wr-analyzers?autoview=SKU&keyword=Mfj%20antenna%20analyzer&sortby=Best KeywordMatch&sortorder=Ascending This is something that should be in all EAA chapter shared tool box. I do not recommend a simple copy of the Archer antenna. You want to have th e arm extending into the wingtip as long as possible. This means the arm pa rallel to the wing rib will be shortened the same amount. If you make the a ntenna overall an inch or so longer you can now trim the end length to the m iddle of the VOR band. You also adjust the gama-match to match the 50 ohm c oax. Gama-match adjustment is done by increasing/decreasing the capacitor e lement and/or the capacitor insulator thickness. These two adjustments are a n interactive process, so trim a little at a time. Figure 13-12 of the Aero Electric Connection book provides a good starting p oint. If you keep the matching triangle the same dimensions it will be easi er. This sounds hard but with the antenna analyzer takes just 10-15 minutes. If you follow this process for a wingtip comm antenna and keep the arm exten ding into the wingtip as vertical as possible, it will not be quite as good a s a belly antenna but more than adequate for a COMM #2 antenna. Carl > On Aug 8, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > 3. The "analyzer" is a standing wave thingy (Standing wave reflectometer) e xcept that it also includes a low power, tunable transmitter. > 4. To successfully clone the Archer you must copy as exactly as you can th e coupling capacitor (the length, width, thickness, and material of the litt le parallel plate capacitor and the dielectric material). > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482196#482196 > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2018
FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'. I consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just "5Tango Golf". This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are on an IFR plan. Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" which I presume they pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to "Experimental..." Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion and only rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... very rarely. This may not work as smoothly using VFR FF. Thanks for insight Kelly. On 8/8/2018 4:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought > it was the 1st RV calling back. > As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an > approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
>From the AIM, 4-2-4: 3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer=99s name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer=99s name or model is stated, the prefix =9CN=9D is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha. EXAMPLE=88=92 1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf. 2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit =9CExperimental=9D after initial contact). On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'. I > consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just "5Tango > Golf". This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are on an IFR plan. > Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" which I presume they > pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to "Experimental..." > > Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion and only > rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... very rarely. This > may not work as smoothly using VFR FF. > > Thanks for insight Kelly. > > On 8/8/2018 4:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought it >> was the 1st RV calling back. >> As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an >> approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0. >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2018
Looks like I could do better. On 8/9/2018 11:30 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > From the AIM, 4-2-4: > > 3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft > type, model or manufacturers name, followed by the > digits/letters of the registration number. When the > aircraft manufacturers name or model is stated, the > prefix N is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four > Alpha. > EXAMPLE > 1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf. > 2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit > Experimental after initial contact). > > > On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Bill Watson > wrote: > > > > > FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'. I > consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just > "5Tango Golf". This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are > on an IFR plan. Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" > which I presume they pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to > "Experimental..." > > Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion > and only rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... > very rarely. This may not work as smoothly using VFR FF. > > Thanks for insight Kelly. > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Date: Aug 09, 2018
Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology. A few additional details on my long story: 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to believe the IFR clearance was not yet active. 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it is", followed by "cleared direct TTE." 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous controller even more curious. But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident literally for decades. Tailwinds to all, -Dan Masys ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2018
Subject: Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Wow, that's even more confusing. Unless she issued you a clearance that started with something like "When reaching [altitude or fix], cleared to...", I can't imagine what she meant by "maintain VFR" An IFR clearance means you can operate IFR. You were right to continue questioning in that case, but you probably should have questioned her specifically about the VFR restriction and indicated reiterated that you're requesting IFR. I realize it was VMC so you weren't concerned about the limitation, but that definitely doesn't make any sense. On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure > strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in > NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone > while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates > the > issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any > misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology. > > A few additional details on my long story: > > 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back > correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to > believe the IFR clearance was not yet active. > > 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I > called > Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in > the > system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here > it > is", followed by "cleared direct TTE." > > 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and > asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code > given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous > controller even more curious. > > But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open > an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without > incident > literally for decades. > > Tailwinds to all, > -Dan Masys > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2018
Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly! No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get (quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and your plan. I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much of what happened on that not so fateful day. Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff. On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote: > > Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure > strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in > NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone > while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the > issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any > misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology. > > A few additional details on my long story: > > 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back > correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to > believe the IFR clearance was not yet active. > > 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called > Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the > system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it > is", followed by "cleared direct TTE." > > 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and > asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code > given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous > controller even more curious. > > But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open > an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident > literally for decades. > > Tailwinds to all, > -Dan Masys --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2018
Subject: Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
I am a professional pilot (not the airlines). I am building an RV10, engine mounted and cowled with the prop on. I fly my current jet in and out of small fields with no tower all the time, as well as in and out every class B Airport and the small ones under the B veil, as well as every place you can think of from northern Canada and Alaska to the Caribbean and Central America. I do my best never to depart VFR and pick up my clearance airborne. There are just too many problems that can arise. One of the problems is radar coverage. ATC cant give you a clearance airborne if they cant see you yet. Even if they can see you, you may be too close to another aircraft to give you a legal IFR clearance. On the ground they can give you a clearance without seeing you because they can protect the entire airspace you need for your cleared route until you are on radar. This can cause some delay on the ground while they are clearing the airspace for you. They also may not own the airspace you are in when you call center, hence the reply to maintain VFR. Another reason they may tell you to remain VFR is will have inadequate separation shortly. Sometimes some other entity owns the airspace you are in. Sometimes the ATC controller is so busy with their current traffic that they just dont have time to read you a clearance just then. On the ground, without a tower, my choices in order of preference are, call whoever owns the airspace on the RCO frequency, call Flight Service on the radio, call whoever owns the airspace on a cell phone, and my least favorite is call the 800 number for Flight Service. Their is also the occasional dialup RCO. A radio transceiver on he field that is hooked up to a dedicated phone line. Usually 5 clicks on the transmitter and it will dial the programmed number to ATC. Calling Flight Service on the phone is usually really painful and I try to avoid it. Most of the time when I am in less familiar territory, which is usually out in the boonies somewhere, I ask the last ATC controller for a telephone number for outbound clearance. Then I pick up my clearance on the ground with my cell phone. If there is no cell phone coverage, I use a land line with a void time. If I drove a rental car out to some small field to pick up a stranded aircraft I have found that there is usually someone at the FBO or a local pilot, who knows the number to call. Sometimes it is taped the the weather computer. I cant think of anywhere in NORCALs airspace that is not high density. They own the airspace up to around FL230 in their area. Oakland Center owns the airspace higher than that. This is a little unusual as the Center Airspace usually starts a lot lower almost everywhere else. If you think a Jet pilot knows nothing about operating out of small fields, I would point out that I have landed at lots of runways with no fuel or even buildings, runways 50X3800 with a teardrop at each end so we could turn around. There were dirt 2 track roads into those kind of places. I can fly in the boonies with anyone. I am also quite comfortable at LAX, SFO, ORD, LGA, JFK, IAD and DCA. Robert Jones > On Aug 10, 2018, at 15:58, Bill Watson wrote: > > > Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly! > > No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get (quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and your plan. > > I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much of what happened on that not so fateful day. > > Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff. > >> On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote: >> >> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure >> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in >> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone >> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the >> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any >> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology. >> >> A few additional details on my long story: >> >> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back >> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to >> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active. >> >> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called >> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the >> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it >> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE." >> >> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and >> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code >> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous >> controller even more curious. >> >> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open >> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident >> literally for decades. >> >> Tailwinds to all, >> -Dan Masys > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Elevator Pushrod Rod End
Date: Aug 14, 2018
Hey all, I know I've heard of this happening with at least 1 other builder (I think 2) that I know of. There's a thread on VAF where Scott says it's the "first time" as we generally hear. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1280755#post1280755 I'd like to remember who it was that all reported this issue where the elevator rod end unscrewed after the safety wire broke. Anyone? Tim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Elevator Pushrod Rod End
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 14, 2018
Tim, I think the title is a bit misleading. Its a pushrod in the elevator control system, but the rod end bearing in question is at the front, near the stick, not near the elevator. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482401#482401 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Elevator Pushrod Rod End
From: "davehead" <davehead726(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2018
My elevator rod end (forward end) did not unscrew, but I did find the safety wire broke after about 2 years of flying. The jam nut was still tight so the bearing did not unscrew from the pushrod. I concluded that I had installed the safety wire too tight .. Im not saying it was twisted too many turns per inch, but I suspect that I had stretched it too tight from where it attaches to the end of the pushrod, to the AN4 bolt that captures it at the rod-end bearing. The wire might have become pinched or chafed between the bearing and the Control Column clevis. Or movement of the pushrod and Control Column might impose some extra stretch at certain extreme positions. So I reinstalled the safety wire with a little slack, and its been OK for about 4 years now. --Dave RV10 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482429#482429 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Elevator Pushrod Rod End
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 15, 2018
davehead wrote: > The wire might have become pinched or chafed between the bearing and the Control Column clevis. Or movement of the pushrod and Control Column might impose some extra stretch at certain extreme positions. > RV10 Hi Dave! I think that if you think about this very carefully, you'll see that if the safety wire was installed properly (not pinched by the clevis and rod end) then it does not stretch with control movement. But if it was pinned between the clevis and rod end, then it is possible for it to stretch and also flex with control movement. Do you recall where your wire originally broke? And were you able to pull the wire out of the clevis/rod end with minimal force, or was it pinched in there? I'm wondering if, next time I'm in there, I should back off the jam nuts and re-install with locktite? Bob -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482431#482431 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2018
Funny that I mentioned clearance strategies in the NYC area. I just returned from a trip that included flying in and out of KFRG Republic Farmingdale LI. My experience doesn't add anything to this discussion (Robert Jones laid out the best approach), but I'll share it as a slightly off-topic point of interest. I suddenly had to fly into NYC on short notice. Though my destination was in the Bronx making KHPN Westchester Co the closest satellite AP, I chose to fly into KFRG because of IFR conditions. I know from experience that coming from the south to KHPN will result in a minimum

June 10, 2018 - August 20, 2018

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