RV9-Archive.digest.vol-ab
April 01, 2001 - September 07, 2001
I used a homemade manometer to test my fuel tanks. You can see a picture of
it here. It worked very well, and as long as you don't use a 10' hose full
of water, you won't over-pressurize the tanks (the water will blow out
first).
http://www.bmnellis.com/wings_tanks_assembly3.htm
Mike Nellis Stinson 108-2 N9666K RV-6 N699BM (reserved) Plainfield, IL (LOT)
http://bmnellis.com
----- Original Message -----
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 1:01 AM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Kelsonhoffrv9(at)aol.com>
> > You will love the kit.
> > Curt Hoffman Loveland, OH
>
> Tim, as Curt says, you will love the kit - but - I have been working on
the
> wing tanks and I'm not so hot on Pro-Seal and tank construction methods. I
> bought some cartridges of Chem-Seal from ACS and borrowed an air powered
> dispenser which works pretty good but still the mess keeps spreading.
After
> I get them sealed up I suppose pressurizing them with a little air is a
good
> way to test, say 4 psi. Is that what others have done?
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: Working on tanks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
Welcome aboard.
Barry Pote RV9a Wings
no not archive
Tim Coldenhoff wrote:
>
>
> Listers -
>
> Traffic on the list has been light, so I'll stop lurking
> and introduce myself.
>
> I have just mailed out my order for the RV-9a empennage
> and wing kits.
>
> I am located in the Phoenix, Arizona area and am looking
> forward with great anticipation to working on my kit.
>
> I spent today working on my website which will contain
> a journal of my progress. Hopefully there will be some
> useful stuff there someday to inspire or help somebody.
>
> I am sure I will have lots of basic questions once the
> tail kit arrives.
>
> Until then, Howdy from the wild wild west.
> --
> +---------------------+--------------------------------+
> | Tim Coldenhoff | borg 'at' primenet 'dot' com |
> | Software Consultant | http://www.primenet.com/~borg |
> +---------------------+--------------------------------+
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
4 psi is a might be little high. Place a toy balloon on vent and apply
enough pressure to inflate. You really don't want to "blow up" you tanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Howdy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Kelsonhoffrv9(at)aol.com>
> > You will love the kit.
> > Curt Hoffman Loveland, OH
>
> Tim, as Curt says, you will love the kit - but - I have been working on
the
> wing tanks and I'm not so hot on Pro-Seal and tank construction methods. I
> bought some cartridges of Chem-Seal from ACS and borrowed an air powered
> dispenser which works pretty good but still the mess keeps spreading.
After
> I get them sealed up I suppose pressurizing them with a little air is a
good
> way to test, say 4 psi. Is that what others have done?
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: Working on tanks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | leak testing tanks |
Be careful when leak testing. 4 psi is too much. I started with a 48" column
of water in a manometer (about 1.75 psi) and put a slight permanent bulge in
the lower tank skins. One psi is much safer (about 27 inches of water column
height). You can see a picture of my setup here:
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/leaktest.html
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Canopy
-----Original Message-----
After I get them sealed up I suppose pressurizing them with a little air is
a good way to test, say 4 psi. Is that what others have done?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: Working on tanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary & Sandi" <flying(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
Albert,
Check Gary Newsted's web site. I think he said he tested his tanks at
ONE psi, anything more bulged them. He used a water manometer which
shows the tiniest leak. Click on
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
He has a great site, great pictures, and he is ahead of us!
Gary Crowder (Waiting for wing kit in Montana)
From: <Kelsonhoffrv9(at)aol.com>
> You will love the kit.
> Curt Hoffman Loveland, OH
Tim, as Curt says, you will love the kit - but - I have been working
on the
wing tanks and I'm not so hot on Pro-Seal and tank construction
methods. I
bought some cartridges of Chem-Seal from ACS and borrowed an air
powered
dispenser which works pretty good but still the mess keeps spreading.
After
I get them sealed up I suppose pressurizing them with a little air is
a good
way to test, say 4 psi. Is that what others have done?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: Working on tanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
Actually, I didn't leak test my tanks at all because I can't imagine fuel
getting past all that black goo. Thanks for the compliment though.
Gary Newsted
>
> Albert,
> Check Gary Newsted's web site. I think he said he tested his tanks at
> ONE psi, anything more bulged them. He used a water manometer which
> shows the tiniest leak. Click on
> http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
>
> He has a great site, great pictures, and he is ahead of us!
>
> Gary Crowder (Waiting for wing kit in Montana)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
I would highly recommend you test your tanks. I had lots of the black stuff
on mine and it was all applied very carefully. Be that as it may, one tank
check fine the second one had two small leaks, one at the BNC connector for
the Capacitive Senders and one at a predrilled hole in the trailing edge of
the tank skin.
Signature Mike Nellis Stinson 108-2 N9666K RV-6 N699BM (reserved)
Plainfield, IL (LOT) http://bmnellis.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Re: RV9-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/31/01
>
> Actually, I didn't leak test my tanks at all because I can't imagine fuel
> getting past all that black goo. Thanks for the compliment though.
>
> Gary Newsted
>
> >
> > Albert,
> > Check Gary Newsted's web site. I think he said he tested his tanks at
> > ONE psi, anything more bulged them. He used a water manometer which
> > shows the tiniest leak. Click on
> > http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
> >
> > He has a great site, great pictures, and he is ahead of us!
> >
> > Gary Crowder (Waiting for wing kit in Montana)
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chuck Weyant <chuck(at)chuckdirect.com> |
I put fittings over the vent and supply line, filled 'em with fifteen gallons of
gas when it was cool (early morning) Then installed the gas cap and let the
hanger warm up (about 77 degrees F). The pressure from heat expansion
pressurized the tanks with gas in them. I've heard some complain that the air
test didn't disclose a leak that showed after gas was put into the tank and some
said the gas test didn't disclose their leak, so I figured I'd use both tests at
once. Worked great for me --- no leaks! By the way, I rolled the tanks over
onto their backs too. Slight leakage around the filler seal was all. When
removed the filler caps the "poof" told me they were definitely under pressure.
I would think that you would want to make sure the temperature differential was
not too extreme though. Perhaps a pressure gauge could be placed on the filler
or vent fitting to keep the pressure or vacuums within safe perameters?
And be careful with gasoline and the associated vapors! That stuff is flamable.
(Leaches (lawyers) make that last knee jerk statement necessary.)
Chuck Weyant --- RV9A Starting the Fuselage!
Cy Galley wrote:
>
> 4 psi is a might be little high. Place a toy balloon on vent and apply
> enough pressure to inflate. You really don't want to "blow up" you tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Riveting leading edge wing ribs |
OK, those of you who have riveted your leading edge wing ribs to your main
spar, how in the heck do you buck the rivets in the second and third ribs
from the inboard edge? The outer ones are somewhat accessible through the
lightening holes in the spar, but I don't stand a chance of getting my arms
through the ribs to the inboard ones. I should be attaching the leading
edges this weekend, but I'm not sure how to get to these rivets. I had a
long skinny armed friend give it a trial fit and he could barely get to the
third rib let alone hold a bucking bar.
Has anyone talked to Van's about using Cherrymax rivets for a couple of
ribs?
Thanks,
Todd Houg
St. Francis, MN
N194TH
Riveting the leading edge skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thomas McIntyre <bogeybrother(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting leading edge wing ribs |
Why solicit second hand information? Ask Vans yourself.
Tom
RV3
Todd Houg wrote:
>
> OK, those of you who have riveted your leading edge wing ribs to your main
> spar, how in the heck do you buck the rivets in the second and third ribs
> from the inboard edge? The outer ones are somewhat accessible through the
> lightening holes in the spar, but I don't stand a chance of getting my arms
> through the ribs to the inboard ones. I should be attaching the leading
> edges this weekend, but I'm not sure how to get to these rivets. I had a
> long skinny armed friend give it a trial fit and he could barely get to the
> third rib let alone hold a bucking bar.
>
> Has anyone talked to Van's about using Cherrymax rivets for a couple of
> ribs?
>
> Thanks,
> Todd Houg
> St. Francis, MN
> N194TH
> Riveting the leading edge skins
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bryan Wood <brywd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting leading edge wing ribs |
I ran into the same problem and I was told by Vans that it would be okay to use
a few blind rivots on these ribs. I agree with the other person who responded,
if in doubt call Van's tech. support and get the straight scoop. Now for an
idea that I'm thinking about asking Van's is to use nutplates on those ribs and
small bolts instead so they can be easy to install, yet strong. Good Luck,
Bryan Wood
Todd Houg wrote:
>
> OK, those of you who have riveted your leading edge wing ribs to your main
> spar, how in the heck do you buck the rivets in the second and third ribs
> from the inboard edge? The outer ones are somewhat accessible through the
> lightening holes in the spar, but I don't stand a chance of getting my arms
> through the ribs to the inboard ones. I should be attaching the leading
> edges this weekend, but I'm not sure how to get to these rivets. I had a
> long skinny armed friend give it a trial fit and he could barely get to the
> third rib let alone hold a bucking bar.
>
> Has anyone talked to Van's about using Cherrymax rivets for a couple of
> ribs?
>
> Thanks,
> Todd Houg
> St. Francis, MN
> N194TH
> Riveting the leading edge skins
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Unknown <oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting leading edge wing ribs |
I did not have any trouble reaching those. It was one of the few jobs I
needed a helper on though. I used the Long bucking bar with offset ends
from Avery. It stands up in the holes just fine. then I just reach in and
hold in on the head of the rivet.
John Oliveira
N909RV Reserved - Rochester, NY
Todd Houg writes:
>
> OK, those of you who have riveted your leading edge wing ribs to your main
> spar, how in the heck do you buck the rivets in the second and third ribs
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
I'm just about finished with the tanks-just fitting the cap. plates, etc.,
but I'm wondering why the stiffeners are not placed so they are easier to
install. If I ever do this again (shudder) I'm going to turn the stiffeners
so they flange is nearer the nose leaving the rivets visable to set and
inspect.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Unknown <oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
I back riveted the stiffeners before any other parts were installed. You
can do it flat on the table and the upper skin is up out of the way.
They came very smooth and were no problem to rivet and get sealed. Plenty
of access that way.
John Oliveira
N909RV reserved. Rochester, NY
Albert Gardner writes:
>
> I'm just about finished with the tanks-just fitting the cap. plates, etc.,
> but I'm wondering why the stiffeners are not placed so they are easier to
> install. If I ever do this again (shudder) I'm going to turn the stiffeners
> so they flange is nearer the nose leaving the rivets visable to set and
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting leading edge wing ribs |
Todd, you've got the right idea... Keep looking for someone with skinny arms.
I was able to get at them, but I had to work in very short bursts to keep
adequate bloodflow. Had rings around my arms the rest of the day too!
I trust you are reaching in through the sides of the nose ribs, not the spar
holes... Re: Cherrymax, I agree that this would be a good alternative solution.
Good luck!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Questions on Vertical Stab. |
Hi all:
I have two quick questions....
1; Can someone point me in right direction...I've poored over the plans and
can't seem to find where they show how far in to screw the rudder rod ends;
2. Did any of you place any CS4-4 rivets into the VS spar to secure the
bottom fiberglass piece? (It looks like it needs a rivet on each side into
the spar and a pair into the horn brace to really lock it down, but his isn't
detailed on the plans).
Thanks for the info.
Doug Lomheim
OK City, OK
(Attempting to finish tail...inventory on wings completed)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:Ruddder details |
Doug-
I just got back from Sun-n-fun, where I took bunches of pictures of details
like this (I wish I had a scanner, I'd send some of the pics to you). On
Van's prototype RV-9A, the bottom Fiberglas fairing is screwed on (because it
has the tail light, they screwed instead of riveting). There IS a screw
through the spar (the forward-most screws in the assembly). To get around the
control horn, they simply (and inelegantly) made a square cut-out in the
fiberglas, which then shows a square patch of the horn brace. The cut-out
corner of the fairing is then screwed into the horn brace. It doesn't look
bad painted up, but you can tell they didn't put a lot of sweat into this
detail. The reassuring thing is that the plane is still VERY pretty, even
though they didn't get nuts about details like this. They addressed them in a
pretty practical way. All the fairings that don't have wiring and stuff
behind them were pop-riveted on, and also look fine.
I think as far as the rudder rod ends go, as long as they're screwed in far
enough to show a couple of threads out the back, they're safe. The next
consideration would be to leave enough room for an effective rudder swing.
None of the planes I looked at had the rudders "snugged into" the VS.
Ed Winne
RV-9A empenage (wings still in crates)
Palmyra PA
In a message dated 4/15/01 2:52:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rv9-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Questions on Vertical Stab. |
1; Can someone point me in right direction...I've poured over the plans and
can't seem to find where they show how far in to screw the rudder rod ends;
Doug,
Dimensions are given in section 8 of the manual (fuselage) under "Fitting
the Rudder". However, you might as well wait since these are set while
installing the rudder stops to insure 35 degrees of rudder swing. If you
want to read ahead, I think Van's now has complete preview plan sets
available for the RV-9.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Canopy
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Quickbuild delivery date |
Van's website now says that the RV-9 Quickbuild will not be available
until the Fall of 2001. Does anybody know why they slipped the date?
Federigo
RV-9A (Quickbuild-hopefully)
Horizontal Stab
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Oliveira <Oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions on Vertical Stab. |
There are dimensions called out from the rear of the vertical stab spar to the
front of the rudder spar top and bottom. they are not the same. It is closer
at
the top than the bottom. I believe it was on the plans, not in the
instructions. It is also later in the instructions, I think in the fuselage
instructions. I just got my study plans the other day as they are now
available. I am now working on closing the left wing.
I used nut plates and screws to secure the bottom fairing as I have the light in
the rear of the fairing. Did not have any particular problems.
John Oliveira
N909RV reserved
DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> I have two quick questions....
>
> 1; Can someone point me in right direction...I've poored over the plans and
> can't seem to find where they show how far in to screw the rudder rod ends;
> 2. Did any of you place any CS4-4 rivets into the VS spar to secure the
> bottom fiberglass piece? (It looks like it needs a rivet on each side into
> the spar and a pair into the horn brace to really lock it down, but his isn't
> detailed on the plans).
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> Doug Lomheim
> OK City, OK
> (Attempting to finish tail...inventory on wings completed)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Grunenwald" <grunnie(at)uswest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 04/15/01 |
Doug,
I believe you can calculate the actual gap required between the rudder and
the VS from the plans. I agree it's not very intuitive, but looking at the
measurements provided for the VS spar and hinge brackets, and the rudder and
rod end bearings, you can back into the actual gap needed to provide
sufficient clearance and range of movement.
Seeing that Chris says they're on the fuselage plans, I'm not too worried
about it. Besides, my VS and rudder are lying across the exposed ceiling
joists in my garage with 5 feet of space between them. I gave it a test fit
before I put them up there and decided not to dicker with it until assembly.
Regards,
Matt Grunenwald
Elevators
Rio Rancho, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
For those that care, I copied the following information off of a screw
size/tap drill chart. You may have to add/delete spaces to make columns
line up.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Screw Dia. Drill NC Tap NF Tap
Size Size Threads Drill Threads Drill
1 .073 #49 (#48) 1-64 #53 1-72 #53
2 .086 #44 (#43) 2-56 #51 2-64 #50
3 .099 #39 (#38) 3-48 #47 3-56 #45
4 .112 #33 4-40 #43 4-48 #42
5 .125 #30 (1/8") 5-40 #39 5-44 #37
6 .138 #28 6-32 #36 6-40 #33
8 .164 #19 8-32 #29 8-36 #29
10 .190 #11(#10) 10-24 #25 10-32 #21
12 .216 7/32" 12-24 #16 12-28 #14
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
RV-9A fuselage builders:
I just added a few tips to my website that may save some builders from
having to drill out a few rivets.
Here is the link: http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/corrections.html
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Canopy almost done
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
Just started clecoing the left tank today. I can easily get clecos in the
top side of the skin into the ribs but the bottom holes are so far off
there's no way I can get the clecos in without doing something drastic.
Seems like the skins were not properly bent. Did anyone else have this
problem?
I'm thinking about installing the attach angles to the baffle then putting
the assembly on the spar and using straps to pull the skin down to get the
holes to line up.
The problem with this may come later when it's time to proseal. I won't be
able to use this method then.
Any input would be appreciated.
Cliff
RV9 (N782PC)
Erie, CO
www.barefootpilot.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Skins |
I thought I was the only one that had that problem. What I did was to make
the cradle first. Then I set the skin in without the plastic. I used a
leather glove and set my hand in the lightening holes on the ribs and pushed
down into the nose. I then used a thin awl and used it to line up one of
the center holes a little lever and pushing and they lined up. Suprised me
too since every thing else has fallen into place so well. With a little
work and pressure they good together pretty tight
Marcel in El Paso. Also working on wings and ailerons
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:32 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Fuel Tank Skins
>
> Just started clecoing the left tank today. I can easily get clecos in the
> top side of the skin into the ribs but the bottom holes are so far off
> there's no way I can get the clecos in without doing something drastic.
> Seems like the skins were not properly bent. Did anyone else have this
> problem?
> I'm thinking about installing the attach angles to the baffle then putting
> the assembly on the spar and using straps to pull the skin down to get
the
> holes to line up.
> The problem with this may come later when it's time to proseal. I won't be
> able to use this method then.
> Any input would be appreciated.
> Cliff
> RV9 (N782PC)
> Erie, CO
> www.barefootpilot.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
<<>>
I wouldn't say it was especially difficult but progress seems very slow
while working on the canopy. The canopy section of the manual is quite good.
I heard that Van's has recently rewritten this section. I think if you
follow the manual, you'll end up with an acceptable fit without too much
trouble.
Wrestling with the canopy frame to get the contours to match the fuselage is
frustrating especially when the powder coating ends up with many cracks and
chips. (If I ever build another RV I will order all the steel parts without
the powder coat.)
I still have to c'sink and enlarge many of the holes in the Plexiglas in
addition to installing all of the rivets. So I'm not out of the woods yet. I
just hope I don't end up with a crack. I would sure hate to start over!
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Canopy
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Skins |
Cliff,
I have received several inquiries from other builders regarding this issue.
I have some information on the wings section of my website (which is in
need of some updates) at http://www.toddhoug.com. Below is a response that
I've sent to several other builders who have struggled with this . . .
My leading edge and tank skins were a tight fit. With the skins in the jig
blocks, I first cleco'd the top side to the ribs with very little effort
(as you're aware, the tank skins are .032 and required more effort than the
leading edge). I tried to start clecoing the at the leading edge on the
backside, but there was just no way I could push the ribs down to align the
holes with out bending something. The leading edge holes in the bottom side
were at least a half inch out of alignment. I found that I could get a
cleco through the rear most hole in the skin and reach up to get it through
the hole in the rib just far enough to get a grip, but with the cleco still
at about 45 degree angle to the skin and about a 1/4" gap. I left this one
in that position and moved down a couple holes and did the same thing. This
would pull the holes a little closer into alignment. By the time I got down
to the third cleco (fifth hole) there was usually enough force to bring the
holes into alignment and I would reseat the top two clecos. I could then
finish clecoing the rest of the holes with a little effort.
Once in place, the skins had a smooth contour with no discernable
distortion to the skins near the ribs. I know when building the leading
edge and tanks on a RV6 (non - matched drilled), the procedure is to
assemble the ribs and skins to the wings and use several rachet straps to
put a lot of force on the skins to bring the edges into alignment and get
them to fit tightly to the ribs.
I read the discussion on another builder having the same troubles you are.
I can't say whether your skins are correct or not, it's concievable that
they were miss bent. Are you able to cleco the ribs to one side or the
other and get the holes aligned for that side? They should be fairly easy
to align with one side at a time. If you can do that on both sides, then I
would think the skin bend is in the correct position.
I hope this helps . . . Good luck,
Todd Houg
St. Francis, MN
N914TH
Getting ready for the goo (tanks!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Skins |
Todd & Marcell,
Thanks for your input.
I can easily cleco the top holes, the bottom holes are about a half inch
off. I'm going to mess with it again tomorrow and if I can't get them
clecoed without mangling the holes, I may try the strap approach.
At least now I'm fairly sure that my skins are not an abberation since
others have had the same problem. I was just somewhat surprised because
almost everything else has gone together so easily.
The leading edge skins were a little off, but I had no real problem getting
them to go together.
Tanks (pun intended)
Cliff
www.barefootpilot.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Skins |
This is what worked the best for me. I clecoed the ribs to the bottom skin,
put the skin/ribs in the cradle and then fastened the top skin working from
the trailing edge as others have suggested. At another builders
suggestion, when we prosealed the tanks, I assembled them with clecoes
rather than rivets and then set the rivets a few days later after the
proseal had set up. far less messy, quicker and much easier to set rivets
and clecoes were not hard to clean later either. After testing with water
today, the only leak is at the damn BNC connector, right at the center pin,
and that's after I put mucho proseal around the connector before closing the
tank. Both BNC connectors drip. I'm going to try sealing from the outside
before I open the cover.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Fuel Tank Skins |
Bill,
This is an excellent idea! I have forwarded it to the "list" so that others
can see it and it can get in the archives.
Thanks,
Cliff
> Hello Cliff
>
> I had the same problem with my tanks. what I did was to cut a block of
wood
> in the shape of a rib and sanded the edges smooth. I then set the skins
in
> the cradle and place the rib shaped block of wood next to the rib in line
> with the cradle and used a long bar clamp to push the skin into the
correct
> shape. I then clecoed the bottom of the skin first and then worked from
the
> inboard to the outboard on the top. Worked very well...
>
>
> Bill Jaques bjaques(at)jps.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Oliveira <Oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Skins |
The Pro Seal acts as a lubricant. I had no trouble with final assembly. I had
the
same worry ahead of time though
John Oliveira
Clifford Begnaud wrote:
>
> Just started clecoing the left tank today. I can easily get clecos in the
> top side of the skin into the ribs but the bottom holes are so far off
> there's no way I can get the clecos in without doing something drastic.
> Seems like the skins were not properly bent. Did anyone else have this
> problem?
> I'm thinking about installing the attach angles to the baffle then putting
> the assembly on the spar and using straps to pull the skin down to get the
> holes to line up.
> The problem with this may come later when it's time to proseal. I won't be
> able to use this method then.
> Any input would be appreciated.
> Cliff
> RV9 (N782PC)
> Erie, CO
> www.barefootpilot.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chuck Weyant <chuck(at)chuckdirect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuselage tips |
Thanks for the correction tips Chris. I printed the correction for the
aileron hinge bracket a couple months ago then forgot to reference the
correction and ended up doing it according to Van's plans. Of course I
discovered the problem (eventually) and the light went off. I'm going to
tape your correction sheet to the plans now or go directly to the plans
and draw the correction in. Thanks again!
Chuck Weyant (Skinning the flaps and ailerons this week then on to the
RV9A fuselage!)
C J Heitman wrote:
>
> RV-9A fuselage builders:
>
> I just added a few tips to my website that may save some builders from
> having to drill out a few rivets.
>
> Here is the link: http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/corrections.html
>
> Chris Heitman
> Dousman WI
> RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
> Canopy almost done
>
--
Regards,
Chuck Weyant
EMail Me: chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
WebSite: http://www.chuckdirect.com
Santa Maria, CA
805 347-8882
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
Wow, did I get lucky!
I had read Chris's correction regarding the aileron brackets months ago and
completely forgot about it. When I was building my aileron hinge brackets a
couple weeks ago I accidently countersunk the wrong side of one of the W914
brackets. So, I decided that I could make them doubleflush by countersinking
both sides and using a -6 rivet instead. They came out very nice that way!
It wasn't until I read Chuck's e-mail and reviewed Chris's web page that I
realized I accidently avoided this problem! (Honestly, you could tell by all
the swearing and cussing when I figured out I countersunk the wrong side!)
I wish my mistakes were always to my benefit!
Todd Houg
St. Francis, MN
N194TH reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Weyant [mailto:chuck(at)chuckdirect.com]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: fuselage tips
Thanks for the correction tips Chris. I printed the correction for the
aileron hinge bracket a couple months ago then forgot to reference the
correction and ended up doing it according to Van's plans. Of course I
discovered the problem (eventually) and the light went off. I'm going to
tape your correction sheet to the plans now or go directly to the plans
and draw the correction in. Thanks again!
Chuck Weyant (Skinning the flaps and ailerons this week then on to the
RV9A fuselage!)
C J Heitman wrote:
>
> RV-9A fuselage builders:
>
> I just added a few tips to my website that may save some builders from
> having to drill out a few rivets.
>
> Here is the link: http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/corrections.html
>
> Chris Heitman
> Dousman WI
> RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
> Canopy almost done
>
--
Regards,
Chuck Weyant
EMail Me: chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
WebSite: http://www.chuckdirect.com
Santa Maria, CA
805 347-8882
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug and Kelly Snead <kellyndoug(at)yahoo.com> |
rv9-list(at)matronics.com
To any new RV builder,
> I have some basic tools for sale that I bought
> from Avery and from the Yard. If you would like
more
> information please write or call at:
>
> kellyndoug(at)yahoo.com
> 580-233-8997
>
>
> Doug
> Enid, OK
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/01 |
In a message dated 4/25/01 11:51:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rv9-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> kellyndoug(at)yahoo.com
>
I need some; things like pneu drill & 3X gun, clecoes & hand rivet squeezer &
bench dimpler.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Coldenhoff <borg(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | HS inboard nose rib |
Howdy -
I just got done clecoing the left horiz. stab together to match
drill the skin. In order to fit the inboard nose rib into
the skin, I had to, ahem, "very aggressively" flute the rib.
Did y'all have the same problem? The amount of adjustment
I made leaves me wondering if I might have missed something.
Thanks,
- Tim.
RV-9a empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/29/01 |
Tim-
Sounds like you did exactly the right thing. On my first try at this, I
didn't flute agressively enough, anf the nose of the rib pushed out little
"bumps" in the skin. You're doing fine!
Ed Winne
RV-9A Wings
Palmyra PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HS inboard nose rib |
Tim,
I'm surprised you only had to "ahem" on the inboard rib. Those buggers are
tight!
You are doing the right thing.
Cliff
>
> I just got done clecoing the left horiz. stab together to match
> drill the skin. In order to fit the inboard nose rib into
> the skin, I had to, ahem, "very aggressively" flute the rib.
>
> Did y'all have the same problem? The amount of adjustment
> I made leaves me wondering if I might have missed something.
>
> Thanks,
> - Tim.
> RV-9a empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Backriveting 9A elevator skins |
I'm about to rivet my right elevator skin to the spar and I'm thinking it
might be better to back rivet instead of using a bucking bar since you won't
be able to see the bucking bar while you're riveting.
Has anybody else used back riveting here? Did you have any problems using
this technique? I'm a little worried that I might damage the skins opening
them wide enough to back rivet.
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | Backriveting 9A elevator skins |
Hello Mark,
I back riveted the top elevator skins to elevator spar and did not have any
trouble with opening the skins too far. I was concerned about using the
standard backrivet set and not being able to keep it square with the rivet
due to the C channel shape of the spar. So I ordered the long Avery angled
backrivet set, It's about 8 inches long and has a slight angle at the end
(no spring loaded collar though). I used the long 3x3 angle bolted to my
bench for a backrivet plate (same as I use for the trailing edges).
One word of advice that for the bottom skin to spar rivets . . . make sure
you have the correct size holes and dimples for the flush pop rivets! I
drilled and dimpled everything for 3/32" rivets thinking that I would
squeeze all the rivets I could reach and then use pop rivets for the rest.
With a 4" yoke I could squeeze quite a few through the hinge openeings in
the skins. However, I then realized that the pop -rivets are 1/8" not 3/32"!
I drilled out the holes, but did not have a way to make the 1/8" dimples (I
had already riveted most of the skin to spar). So my flush rivets didn't sit
exactly flush! If your going to use all pop-rivets then you'll probably
figure out the holes and dimples are too small while you can still do
something about it. However, if your going to squeeze some of the rivets,
then make sure you plan for the larger pop-rivets for the rest of the holes.
Good Luck,
Todd Houg
N194TH
Tanks . . .
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schrimmer [mailto:mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:27 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
I'm about to rivet my right elevator skin to the spar and I'm thinking it
might be better to back rivet instead of using a bucking bar since you won't
be able to see the bucking bar while you're riveting.
Has anybody else used back riveting here? Did you have any problems using
this technique? I'm a little worried that I might damage the skins opening
them wide enough to back rivet.
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | "Oil Canning" in Vertical Stab |
Thread-Topic: "Oil Canning" in Vertical Stab
Thread-Index: AcDRmrZ9tHfp+es3S/aoFCJIpPSEcQ==
| From: | "Frank Lanier" <flanier(at)microsoft.com> |
I have just drilled the VS skin to the skeleton and noticed quite a bit
of "oil canning" in the area between the 407 and 404 ribs. Further, I've
noticed one side is worse with it than the other. I've plumbed the
leading edge, and while it's not perfect, it's not to far off. I'm
wondering if this is normal or do I have a problem here. The HS came
out very tight and straight, so I'm using this as a reference for skin
tightness.
Thanks,
Frank
RV-9a Vertical Stab
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Dimpling holes in elevator after riveting |
I did not have a way to make the 1/8" dimples (I had already riveted most of
the skin to spar). So my flush rivets didn't sit exactly flush!
Todd,
Because the elevator ends are open, you might be able to fit an 1/8" pop
rivet dimple die inside the elevator by attaching it to a stick and
positioning it under the correct hole. Of course, you would have to drill
out all those pop rivets, so it might not be worth the trouble.
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alex Gibbs <agibbs(at)tideworks.com> |
| Subject: | RE: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/29/01 |
Hmmm... I did not have to flute the nose ribs much at all. In fact, at
first I thought it was totally unnecessary and crossed it out in my plans.
After assembling the left HS skin I found two tiny dings in my leading edge
where the tip of the nose ribs poked into the skin. Dang. Tapped it out
with a hammer and fluted the nose ribs for the right side of the stab.
before assembly. I also tapped the tips on the right side with a hammer
before installing the nose ribs just to make sure it didn't happen again.
From your email, it sounds like just the inboard rib needed fluting. The
adjustment that I had to make was not very much, but all the nose ribs
required the same amount.
FYI - I just finished riveting my HS last weekend. Here's a boo boo that
I'll bet a lot of folks (and I) made. There are ten holes on the top of the
inboard ribs that DO NOT get riveted in this phase of construction. They
are reserved for attaching a fiberglass trim strip along the VS (see
blueprint). The construction plans don't mention it, but I suspect they
should not be dimpled either. Mine are dimpled and it probably won't
matter, but anybody who got this right should get an "A" for interpreting
the plans.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Coldenhoff <borg(at)primenet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: HS inboard nose rib
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HS inboard nose rib |
Greetings from El Paso,
We also had this problem with those nose ribs. Since was the first part of
our construction we were not quite sure what to do. But you really need to
flute these rasquals pretty good. If not you will have a ugly stabilizer
leading edge. Of all the pieces these were the most confusing since our
learning curve was not too far along. Go for it
Marcel in El Paso, RV-9A working on wings and my helper just ordered 7A
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: HS inboard nose rib
>
> Tim,
> I'm surprised you only had to "ahem" on the inboard rib. Those buggers are
> tight!
> You are doing the right thing.
> Cliff
>
> >
> > I just got done clecoing the left horiz. stab together to match
> > drill the skin. In order to fit the inboard nose rib into
> > the skin, I had to, ahem, "very aggressively" flute the rib.
> >
> > Did y'all have the same problem? The amount of adjustment
> > I made leaves me wondering if I might have missed something.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - Tim.
> > RV-9a empennage
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HS inboard nose rib |
I've been reluctant to chime in because I don't want to sound like a
peabody, but I continue to read horror stories about people having
to plant explosives or rent elephants to get various pieces to "fit".
Thus far, and I am working on my fuselage having started with a
very early kit, I have had no problems whatsoever getting any parts
to fit. In A&P school, we spent a good amount of time tearing apart
and reassembling old wrecked wings, etc. One thing you notice
right away is this mysterious thing called fluting. In order to get nice
clean fitting parts, they absolutely must be properly fluted, and then
don't hesitate to run the edges of ribs along an upright belt sander.
Round them off good. Obviously hold short of paper-thin!
Anyway you look at it, one protrusive corner will prevent a good fit.
When properly fluted, straightened, and sanded, you can run your
finger down the smoothly curved ribs (we're still talking airplanes here
right?) and they will just about drop into place. This is true for the
stabs, the tanks, the wing noses, etc. I really wouldn't say it if I
hadn't been there, and done that...
Oil-canning is a different story. Some (small) amount is unavoidable
in surfaces which use thin skins, like the rudder. Typically, it results
from failing to securely clamp the pieces when you pre-drill, and
again when you rivet. I suppose improper fluting could also be the
culprit, because if you over or under flute, the ribs end up curved.
When fluting, place the pieces on a sheet of glass and eyeball them
very carefully to see that they end up flat. This assures the rivet holes
are in a straight line. Any deviation will be taken up by the pre-drilling.
I've heard a lot of people blame the kit (aka Vans). I think you would
be surprised by how much thought has actually gone into these parts.
Even the match-hole spacing in places is slightly wider than the end
result, in anticipation of the effect of fluting pulling the holes closer.
If it takes more than a very light prying with a scribe or awl, then you
need to revisit your prep work,,, or use explosives, or elephants.
Gary Newsted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Grunenwald" <grunnie(at)uswest.net> |
"RV9-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/29/01 |
Tim,
Nah, you're not the only one, but that depends on your definition of
"aggessive". I feel the HS skins were slightly underbent, and I had to
"encourage" my inner/mid nose ribs in as well. A tour of Van's with an
experienced eye (after finishing my HS) on their -9A's tail, I spotted the
same slight indention on the skins as they bowed in to meet the mid-nose
rib.
Be sure you have sufficient metal edge distance for riveting on the rib
flanges and you should try to firmly set the skins in the jigs to aid in
getting a nicer fit. That worked for me, but I did have to attack it a few
times before I felt comfortable enough to move forward.
Welcome to the list,
Matt Grunenwald
Elevators
Rio Rancho, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Grunenwald" <grunnie(at)uswest.net> |
"RV9-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/29/01 |
Tim,
Nah, you're not the only one, but that depends on your definition of
"aggessive". I feel the HS skins were slightly underbent, and I had to
"encourage" my inner/mid nose ribs in as well. A tour of Van's with an
experienced eye (after finishing my HS) on their -9A's tail, I spotted the
same slight indention on the skins as they bowed in to meet the mid-nose
rib.
Be sure you have sufficient metal edge distance for riveting on the rib
flanges and you should try to firmly set the skins in the jigs to aid in
getting a nicer fit. That worked for me, but I did have to attack it a few
times before I felt comfortable enough to move forward.
Welcome to the list,
Matt Grunenwald
Elevators
Rio Rancho, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HS inboard nose rib |
Other builders suggested running the nose ribs past a sanding disk to make a
smooth transition from flange tab to flange tab and avoiding the little
bumps showing through the skin after riveting. After trying this, I can
recommend this technique myself.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelsonhoffrv9(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HS inboard nose rib |
Wait until you have to install the nose skin on the ailerons or get the ribs
in the tanks. I used a lot of ahems on them.
By the way, there was a thread on RV-9 tanks earlier. I have just put all my
ribs in and found a couple interesting things.
It is almost impossible to have all the holes line up exactly when you are
installing the ribs. With the holes being slightly undersized anyway, it
makes it doubly difficult to get in the clecoes. I bet I broke about 25
clecoes getting the little buggers in the holes. You essentially use the
clecoes as a pry bar to move the skin relative to the ribs.
One thing that helped was that I had a bunch of old cheap clecoes from my
earlier endeavor on a -6 back in 89. They seemed to be slightly undersized
and wouldn't hold real well once you dimpled the pieces and the hole was a
little large. They went in a lot easier in the -9 tank situation than the
better quality Avery clecoes I have more recently purchased.
The downside with the cheap clecoes was that even with every other hole
"filled", when I put the tank on the spar, there was a slight gap between the
tank skin and the top skin. I think this was because teh undersized clecoes
didn't exactly pull the skin down all the way. I ended up installing the
better clecoes in every hole and it pulled the skin down to within a snitch
(technical term) of the top skin. I am debating whether to try and use straps
to ratchet down the remaining few thousands or move on. I'm out of clecoes
again anyway so am waiting for my third order from Avery. Building two wings
at once is a cleco eater.
Anyway, good clecoes in every hole will bring the tank skin into the best
position with the top skin. I plan to then just remove one at a time and
drill it out to full size.
Curt Hoffman Loveland, OH
RV-9A (N912WK reserved)
Working on Wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Richardson" <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets |
Fellow RV9A builders,
I too had problems with attaching the skin to the Elevator spars. I
failed to look at the rivets before beginning assembly and found myself with
the top side riveted with 3/32 solid rivets, and the bottom dimpled for 3/32
rivets with 1/8 pop rivets being required. The fix, after contacting Van's,
was to use MK-319-BS pop rivets instead of the CS4-4 pop rivets called for
in the plans. The MK-319-BS rivets are structurally an equal replacement in
this application for the CS4-4's according to Van's, and use a 1/8" body,
with a 3/32" head. All that is required is to drill out the 3/32 dimples to
#30, and set them. Just to make sure I retained as much strength as I
could, I squeezed solid 3/32 rivits through the attach cut outs, and was
able to get 18 solid rivets with a 4" yoke.
Hope this helps.
Greg RV-9A Wings(building Right tank)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets |
However, later on when you're doing the flaps, Vans tell you to use a 7/64"
drill for the MK-319-BS 3/32" pop rivets, so I think #30 is a little strong-
#35 might be a better choice. [Construction Manual page 7-15] ACS catalog
2000/2001 page 100 has a table to convert 'pop' rivets to corresponding
Cherry numbers and says USM Pop rivets like the MK-319-BS are actually 1/64"
over nominal size which explains the need for a slightly oversize hole.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Richardson" <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets
> Fellow RV9A builders,
> The fix, after contacting Van's,
> was to use MK-319-BS pop rivets instead of the CS4-4 pop rivets called for
> in the plans. The MK-319-BS rivets are structurally an equal replacement
in
> this application for the CS4-4's according to Van's, and use a 1/8" body,
> with a 3/32" head. All that is required is to drill out the 3/32 dimples
to
> #30, and set them
> Greg RV-9A Wings(building Right tank)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Richardson" <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets |
>From: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net>
>However, later on when you're doing the flaps, Vans tell you to use a 7/64"
>drill for the MK-319-BS 3/32" pop rivets, so I think #30 is a little
>strong-
>#35 might be a better choice. [Construction Manual page 7-15]
Albert,
thanks for the save. I had forgotten about that, and in my haste to
provide the information had not looked it up. I had just remembered that
the body was close to 1/8". Your information is correct, and is also how I
did it way back then. As I remember, I was just ecstatic when I learned of
not having to drill out 18 rivets.
Thanks for correcting me.
Greg 9A (right wing tank)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Richardson" <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets |
>From: tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com>
>Greg,
>
>I'm glad I'm not the only one that ran into that problem! I didn't realize
>they had a pop-rivet equivalent of an oops rivet. I may consider drilling
>those rivets our after all.
>
Todd,
I did this on one elevator only. after realizing my mistake I correctly
assembled the other elevator as per plans with CS4-4's. I admit that I did
think about using the 319's, just because I like the 3/32 rivet head size
instead of the 1/8. However, after looking at the two rivets, I became
afraid that the extra beef of the cs4 was really required there. Probably
not, but when I'm at 10,000, I'll feel better about it. I also incorrectly
reported the drill size to you. Albert followed up my original post with
the correction of a 7/64 drill bit.
Good luck
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 319 Flap Rivets |
For the 319 rivets I also found the 7/64 drill to be too small, 1/8 too big,
so I measured and came up with #33 bit. After trying this size, I found it
to be perfect.
For the flaps holes that use the 319 rivets, I found the best technique to
be as follows:
1- drill holes to #40
2- dimple with #40 dimple die
3- cleco parts together
4- re-drill to #33
5- Install Rivets
I'm going to try one slight modification to this. I noticed in test pieces
that the head of the 319 rivet does not set as deeply in the dimple as does
a 426 solid rivet.
I should receive one of Clevelands fuel tank dimple dies today, which set
the dimple slightly deeper to allow for the thickness of the proseal. I'm
going to try this dimple die on a test piece to see if it works with the 319
rivets. I'll report on the results.
Regards,
Cliff
-9 tanks
www.barefootpilot.com
>
> However, later on when you're doing the flaps, Vans tell you to use a
7/64"
> drill for the MK-319-BS 3/32" pop rivets, so I think #30 is a little
strong-
> #35 might be a better choice. [Construction Manual page 7-15] ACS
catalog
> 2000/2001 page 100 has a table to convert 'pop' rivets to corresponding
> Cherry numbers and says USM Pop rivets like the MK-319-BS are actually
1/64"
> over nominal size which explains the need for a slightly oversize hole.
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
> Working on wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
Hi Barry,
There was an article in the RVator last year (I think it was the third
issue) that tells you how to do a double-flush rivet. I read it carefully,
followed the instructions as best I could, and everything came out fine.
I don't have the RVator here at my office, but going from memory, here are
the highlights:
1. It's OK for the rivets to look short. You don't want the shop head to
completely fill the dimple on the back side.
2. Partially set the rivets with the FACTORY head against the back rivet
plate.
3. Flip the aileron over and set the rivets some more with the SHOP heads
against the back rivet plate.
4. If necessary, flip the aileron back so the FACTORY heads are against the
back rivet plate and finish setting the rivet with the SHOP heads facing up.
I partially set all of the rivets with the factory heads down before I
flipped the aileron over. I was only able to rivet about 10 rivets at a time
because I don't have a very long back rivet plate. Each time I needed to
move the back rivet plate I had to remove the 50 lb. sandbags off the
aileron, then pile them back on. It was a major pain, (I guess I should
spend more time at the gym doing weight lifting) but it did keep everything
flat. If memory serves me correct, I think I started in the center and
worked my way out to the ends. I used a flush rivet set with a rubber guard
instead of my usual swivel rivet set.
Track down the RVator, just in case I didn't explain this correctly. Perhaps
someone else on the list can verify that I got this right.
Hope this helps,
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Rankin <RankinP(at)avsales.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Elevator Spar to skin rivets |
RV9 builders
You can replace 3/32 solid rivets with 1/8 cheery max blind rivets (pop
rivets)
That u the same dimple or countersink as the standard 3/32 rivets.
CR3214-4 are a blind equivalents to NAS1097AD4 rivets. (100 degree
countersink)
I hope this information helps.
Phil Rankin (empennage ordered)
> Fellow RV9A builders,
>
> I too had problems with attaching the skin to the Elevator spars. I
> failed to look at the rivets before beginning assembly and found myself
> with
>
> the top side riveted with 3/32 solid rivets, and the bottom dimpled for
> 3/32
>
> rivets with 1/8 pop rivets being required. The fix, after contacting
> Van's,
>
> was to use MK-319-BS pop rivets instead of the CS4-4 pop rivets called for
>
> in the plans. The MK-319-BS rivets are structurally an equal replacement
> in
>
> this application for the CS4-4's according to Van's, and use a 1/8" body,
> with a 3/32" head. All that is required is to drill out the 3/32 dimples
> to
>
> #30, and set them. Just to make sure I retained as much strength as I
> could, I squeezed solid 3/32 rivits through the attach cut outs, and was
> able to get 18 solid rivets with a 4" yoke.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | RV-9A Right Elevator Question |
I've completed my right elevator except for the trailing edge, and I notice
the pre-drilled holes that are supposed to be on the top skin are actually
on the bottom! Has anyone else had this problem? It appears my right
elevator skin got punched upside down or bent inside out!
(Put down the flame throwers, I didn't get the right elevator mixed up with
the left!)
Anyway, I figure the way to fix the problem is to flip the elevator upside
down, and then put my 84 degree drill guide upside down on the bottom of the
elevator instead of the top. By my calculations, I should still get the
holes for the trailing edge rivets drilled at the correct angle, but being
mathematically challenged, I wanted to run this by the list before I
actually drill the holes.
Thanks in advance,
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | RV-9A Quickbuild Fuselage |
I e-mailed Van's about a Quickbuild Fuselage for 9A builders who have
already started working on their wing kits and here's what they said:
Mark, we can do a 'fuse only' QB. It will cost about $3750 on top
of the standard fuse kit price. We will need the center section
bulkhead F-904 components sent back to us (these came with your wing
kit as they were match drilled with your spars) Then, the next time
we ship a batch of parts overseas (mid to late June), we will include
your 904 and an extra set of fuse parts. A fuse will then be built
up around your 904. If we sent it over in June, would probably take
4 months or so to get it back here to Van's. I'm guessing that it
would save you about 300-400hrs. on the build.
If you choose to do this, we will need to know within about two weeks
as we will be getting import clearances etc for the june shipment in
a couple weeks.
scott at van's
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-9A Right Elevator Question |
Drill the holes! I found it very useful to mount the elevators on the
HS before drilling. I clamped BOTH elevators along the trailing edge
using the long fuselage angles that ship in the wing kit. That way, it
can't help but to come out straight. I hand-squeezed enough rivets to
hold it in shape, then finished backriveting job on the bench.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Coldenhoff <borg(at)primenet.com> |
Howdy -
I have put off building the H-jig until now.
If there is a note of how high off the floor the
top of the crossbrace should be, I can't find it.
I am thinking of making it the same height as my
work tables, 34". But is this high enough to keep
the wing off the floor? I don't want to rip apart
the jig when I get to that point and find I am an
inch too low.
I am also thinking of using the entire 12' length
of 4x4 for the crossbrace. Hopefully no potential
problems here?
Thanks,
- Tim.
RV-9a emp., HS parts ready to prime
Wing kit arriving Friday, 2 wks ahead of schedule!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Richardson" <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com> |
>From: Tim Coldenhoff <borg(at)primenet.com>
>I have put off building the H-jig until now.
>If there is a note of how high off the floor the
>top of the crossbrace should be, I can't find it.
>
Tim,
When I built mine, I found a modified H jig listed in the builder manual
which states that with the prepunched wing the horizontal member is not
required. I only mounted the uprights from floor to ceiling, and used 2x4's
on the inside surfaces of the 4x4's to hang the wing spar on top of. My
spar supports are mounted at 54" off the floor, which yields a leading edge
height of 67 to 68", and leaves the trailing edge about 24" off of the
floor. There are straightness checks involved in using a plumb bob wrapped
around one of the clecos in the skin.
Greg
RV9A (right wing)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
Good morning from El Paso
We also had the same problem when we erected our jig. We originaly set it
to low. Best height seems to be about shoulder high for the supports.
Marcel in El Paso Finishing up second winge
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Richardson <kpd_307(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-jig
>
>
> >From: Tim Coldenhoff <borg(at)primenet.com>
>
> >I have put off building the H-jig until now.
> >If there is a note of how high off the floor the
> >top of the crossbrace should be, I can't find it.
> >
>
>
> Tim,
>
> When I built mine, I found a modified H jig listed in the builder manual
> which states that with the prepunched wing the horizontal member is not
> required. I only mounted the uprights from floor to ceiling, and used
2x4's
> on the inside surfaces of the 4x4's to hang the wing spar on top of. My
> spar supports are mounted at 54" off the floor, which yields a leading
edge
> height of 67 to 68", and leaves the trailing edge about 24" off of the
> floor. There are straightness checks involved in using a plumb bob
wrapped
> around one of the clecos in the skin.
>
>
> Greg
> RV9A (right wing)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
>> Best height seems to be about shoulder high for the supports. <<
I believe that Marcel's answer is very good. It is up to you, depending on
whether how tall you are and you like to reach up verses bend over - and
whether you are going to install the landing lights using this jig. My spar
ended up about shoulder height - which worked for me. I attached a main rib
and a flap rib and walked around, fiddling around until I was happy.
Shoulder height. BTW: for a centre support I fabricated an adjustable
post - consisting of a a piece of pvc pipe, a 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 threaded
adapter and a screw on compression union (chuck the compression ring). I
could adjust the "post" up or down about 1" with a couple of twists. Worked
well.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Building Fuselage, Planning: O-235 Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
I had a fairly tall work table which became even taller after I added large
caster wheels to it. On a hunch, I made the horizontal H-jig member the
same height as the table. This worked out great because I could roll the
table up against the jig. You'll find the jig becomes a favorite work surface
for all sorts of jobs. The full 12' 4x4 works out fine as long as you have a
pair of sturdy out-riggers to rest the wing spars on. I used heavy angle-iron
for those, and just lag-bolted them down where they fit the spar best.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve dwyer" <stdwyer(at)dreamscape.com> |
| Subject: | Van visits EAA 486 Chapter 5/20/01 |
For those interested (nearby) Van will be in Central New York next
weekend on personal business and has agreed to visit the EAA Chapter 486
in Fulton N.Y.. Van will be available for a builders technical
discussion on Sunday 5/20 11:00 am till 4:00 pm at the EAA hanger. For
more info contact Ken Barto (315) 622-2072.
Have picked up a good deal of good information reading the RV9 Digest.
I'm currently completing my wings, the fuselage is due here in Syracuse
around 7/1 waiting on a confirmation from Vans. Started the kit mid
November 2000, all has gone well so far. 486 Tech Advisers gave my tail
a real critical look over with a thumbs up!! The RV9 is a great kit I
never imagined I would enjoy building anything as much as building this
airplane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
I installed one landing light with the leading edge riveted on and the wing
still on the jig and the other after the leading edge was assembled but not
riveted on so I could set it on the bench and install it there. The latter
was by far the best so if you have a choice install landing lights before
riveting the leading edge on the wing.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Emp kit arrived! |
Well first off the emp. kit has arrived so I guess I am now committed. A
bit daunted right now.
One question. The spar doublers H906 & 7 and the vertical stabiliser
spar VS808PP are quite 'bowed' is this normal? Does one have to
straighten them or just let everything pull them into shape? If 'yes'
what is the straightening technique?
Thanks all, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | Emp kit arrived! |
Hello Steve, and welcome to the builders club! Don't be too intimidated by
all the parts!
All thge doublers have a "bow" to them from the stamping/shearing process.
You shouldn't need to straighten them. Just cleco them to the C
channel(spars) and everything will be straight from there.
Congratulations!
Todd Houg
http://www.toddhoug.com
N194TH - reserved
Slowly working on the tanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Sampson [mailto:SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Emp kit arrived!
Well first off the emp. kit has arrived so I guess I am now committed. A
bit daunted right now.
One question. The spar doublers H906 & 7 and the vertical stabiliser
spar VS808PP are quite 'bowed' is this normal? Does one have to
straighten them or just let everything pull them into shape? If 'yes'
what is the straightening technique?
Thanks all, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Yarbrough" <pyarbroug(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Emp kit arrived! |
Steve
My spar doublers were slightly bowed and worked fine. My VS spar was
straight. Since that's not pre-drilled i'd wouldn't be really happy with it
not straight.
Paul
RV-9a almost done with emp.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Sampson
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Emp kit arrived!
Well first off the emp. kit has arrived so I guess I am now committed. A
bit daunted right now.
One question. The spar doublers H906 & 7 and the vertical stabiliser
spar VS808PP are quite 'bowed' is this normal? Does one have to
straighten them or just let everything pull them into shape? If 'yes'
what is the straightening technique?
Thanks all, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Emp kit arrived! |
Hi Steve,
I think they are all that way. I had the same concern that you have and
decided to call Van's. They said it is the normal bend caused by the punch
of the press and that it wasn't anything to worry about. They said further
that if I wanted I could just straighten them over my knee.
Dennis Thomas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve dwyer" <stdwyer(at)dreamscape.com> |
| Subject: | left wing pushrod interference |
just completed installing pushrods and bellcrank in the left wing. there
exist an interference at the rear spar where the shorter push rod passes
through and connects to the aileron. this causes a slight shifting of
the aileron sideways when the push rod hits the edge of the spar. is
this resolved by simply enlarging the already out of round hole? if no
one has experienced this then i have the bellcrank installed backward
even thou i am convinced i have it right. i dont want to remove any
extra material from the spar in fear of weakening it. also this limits
trailing edge arc swing to approx. 3.5" while the opposite swing is over
5". can anyone help? fuselage is due here in syracuse the last week of
june, still having more fun building this plane than i ever imagined a
guy would be allowed .
steve dwyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | left wing pushrod interference |
Steve;
I also encountered this and simply enlarged the hole slightly to eliminate
this interference. As I finished and was admiring my work, I realized that
it wouldn't have interfered once it was linked to the other aileron. Each
aileron has a stop on it in one direction only, but when linked to the other
it will stop both ways. The interference was outside of this range of
travel.
My advice would be to leave it as is. However, if it still does interfere
when installed it will be a little more difficult to correct later, but not
too bad.
Todd Bartrim
13B RV-9
Fuselage
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of steve dwyer
> Sent: May 31, 2001 4:47 AM
> To: RV9-List Digest Server
> Subject: RV9-List: left wing pushrod interference
>
>
> just completed installing pushrods and bellcrank in the left wing. there
> exist an interference at the rear spar where the shorter push rod passes
> through and connects to the aileron. this causes a slight shifting of
> the aileron sideways when the push rod hits the edge of the spar. is
> this resolved by simply enlarging the already out of round hole? if no
> one has experienced this then i have the bellcrank installed backward
> even thou i am convinced i have it right. i dont want to remove any
> extra material from the spar in fear of weakening it. also this limits
> trailing edge arc swing to approx. 3.5" while the opposite swing is over
> 5". can anyone help? fuselage is due here in syracuse the last week of
> june, still having more fun building this plane than i ever imagined a
> guy would be allowed .
>
> steve dwyer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | left wing pushrod interference |
Steve,
The rivets that attach the threaded end to the pushrod interfere with my
rear spar. I have not enlarged the hole yet. I may order new pushrod parts
and have the ends welded to eliminate the rivets.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
finish kit
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
-----Original Message-----
just completed installing pushrods and bellcrank in the left wing. there
exist an interference at the rear spar where the shorter push rod passes
through and connects to the aileron. this causes a slight shifting of
the aileron sideways when the push rod hits the edge of the spar. is
this resolved by simply enlarging the already out of round hole? if no
one has experienced this then i have the bellcrank installed backward
even thou i am convinced i have it right. i dont want to remove any
extra material from the spar in fear of weakening it. also this limits
trailing edge arc swing to approx. 3.5" while the opposite swing is over
5". can anyone help? fuselage is due here in syracuse the last week of
june, still having more fun building this plane than i ever imagined a
guy would be allowed .
steve dwyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | left wing pushrod interference |
Could you change the spacing of the pushrod end in the attach bracket. Mine
is about 1 inch wide and will require spacers on the attachment bolt. More
on one side and less on the other might help the problem.
Regards
Larry Perryman
Conroe, Tx.
N194DL Reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: C J Heitman [mailto:cjh(at)execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: left wing pushrod interference
Steve,
The rivets that attach the threaded end to the pushrod interfere with my
rear spar. I have not enlarged the hole yet. I may order new pushrod parts
and have the ends welded to eliminate the rivets.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
finish kit
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
-----Original Message-----
just completed installing pushrods and bellcrank in the left wing. there
exist an interference at the rear spar where the shorter push rod passes
through and connects to the aileron. this causes a slight shifting of
the aileron sideways when the push rod hits the edge of the spar. is
this resolved by simply enlarging the already out of round hole? if no
one has experienced this then i have the bellcrank installed backward
even thou i am convinced i have it right. i dont want to remove any
extra material from the spar in fear of weakening it. also this limits
trailing edge arc swing to approx. 3.5" while the opposite swing is over
5". can anyone help? fuselage is due here in syracuse the last week of
june, still having more fun building this plane than i ever imagined a
guy would be allowed .
steve dwyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: left wing pushrod interference |
on 5/31/01 3:18 PM, PERRYMAN Larry at Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com wrote:
>
> Could you change the spacing of the pushrod end in the attach bracket. Mine
> is about 1 inch wide and will require spacers on the attachment bolt. More
> on one side and less on the other might help the problem.
>
> Regards
> Larry Perryman
> Conroe, Tx.
> N194DL Reserved
>
Any ideas what is causing the pushrod misalignment problems? I figured with
all the pre-drilled parts in the 9A wing this wouldn't be a problem.
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | left wing pushrod interference |
> Any ideas what is causing the pushrod misalignment problems? I
> figured with
> all the pre-drilled parts in the 9A wing this wouldn't be a problem.
Hi Mark;
I really don't think there is a misalignment problem. As I said before,
it
shouldn't interfere once it is linked to the other aileron. Each aileron has
a stop on it in up direction only, but when linked to the other
it will stop both ways. The interference is outside of this range of travel.
Todd Bartrim
13B RV9
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jennifer groceman <groceman(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
Hi All,
I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
for? I am starting this project in the living room and cannot really attach
anything to floor (and preferably not the ceiling). I have room in the
garage to do this, but I was wondering how much time will be spent doing
work on the jig; i.e. do stuff inside and then haul it out to the garage to
finish it off, etc... Also if anyone has any ideas for alternatives to
bolting to the floor (like building a more rigid free standing frame), I'd
love to hear them.
Thanks for the help,
Jennifer Groceman
Lake Worth, Florida
RV9A - empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
on 6/1/01 3:46 PM, jennifer groceman at groceman(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
> H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
> for?
Jennifer,
The primary purpose of the H-frame is to support your wings during
construction. It is also used to support the vertical stabilizer during
construction, but it is possible to build the vertical stabilizer without
the H-jig. I know because I built my VS on my workbench, and from what I can
tell, it is very straight.
I'm building my wing in our EAA chapter's hangar and the ceiling is too tall
to use the H-jig. As a substitute, we've built metal support structures that
are bolted to the floor. One support goes on each end of the spar during
construction and we eliminate the cross bar. So far, we've built something
like 12 wings this way and all of them have come out just fine.
Let me know if you need more info.
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Yarbrough" <pyarbroug(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
Jennifer
I agree with Mark about the H-frame for the VS. I didn't use it. I think
it would only be required if the skin wasn't pre-drilled. You may also want
to consider lining your ribs and spars up with the pre-drilled holes in the
skin, clecoing along the rear spar, clapping everything in place and
drilling. Riveting the frame together and hoping you measured good enough
to line up perfectly with the skin holes isn't easy. I speak from
experience. Draw a line along the ribs and spar where you want to drill so
you line up along the holes in the skin and get the holes in the middle of
the ribs and spar flanges. That's my suggestion anyway.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Schrimmer
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
on 6/1/01 3:46 PM, jennifer groceman at groceman(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
> H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
> for?
Jennifer,
The primary purpose of the H-frame is to support your wings during
construction. It is also used to support the vertical stabilizer during
construction, but it is possible to build the vertical stabilizer without
the H-jig. I know because I built my VS on my workbench, and from what I can
tell, it is very straight.
I'm building my wing in our EAA chapter's hangar and the ceiling is too tall
to use the H-jig. As a substitute, we've built metal support structures that
are bolted to the floor. One support goes on each end of the spar during
construction and we eliminate the cross bar. So far, we've built something
like 12 wings this way and all of them have come out just fine.
Let me know if you need more info.
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
Jennifer & Paul:
I used the H-Jig. It was handy and took little space. However, You don't
need it for the RV-9A. You could build your wings on a flat table. When
you are ready to rivet the outboard and inboard skins, do the following.
Hang it - or stand it vertically. From a cleco at each end of the main spar
(skins clcoed) hang a plumb line - any string with a weight clecod to the
main spar. Meaure the distance from each string to the rear spar. The
distance doesn't matter - but the difference between the two should be less
than 3/32". Mine was much better, thanks to prepunching.
I didn't use the jig for the empenage. To check the H. tab stand it up on
the hinge line. drop a plumb at each end to make certain that the spar is
lined up before drilling the skin (the only part that is not totally
pre-punched). You can improvise. Email me directly if you wish more detail
on how it was done.
You will love this project. It will get a lot better.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Building Fuselage, O-235-N2C, Planning: Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Yarbrough" <pyarbroug(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: H-frame question
>
> Jennifer
>
> I agree with Mark about the H-frame for the VS. I didn't use it. I think
> it would only be required if the skin wasn't pre-drilled. You may also
want
> to consider lining your ribs and spars up with the pre-drilled holes in
the
> skin, clecoing along the rear spar, clapping everything in place and
> drilling. Riveting the frame together and hoping you measured good enough
> to line up perfectly with the skin holes isn't easy. I speak from
> experience. Draw a line along the ribs and spar where you want to drill
so
> you line up along the holes in the skin and get the holes in the middle of
> the ribs and spar flanges. That's my suggestion anyway.
>
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Schrimmer
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:45 PM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
>
>
> on 6/1/01 3:46 PM, jennifer groceman at groceman(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
> > H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
> > for?
>
> Jennifer,
>
> The primary purpose of the H-frame is to support your wings during
> construction. It is also used to support the vertical stabilizer during
> construction, but it is possible to build the vertical stabilizer without
> the H-jig. I know because I built my VS on my workbench, and from what I
can
> tell, it is very straight.
>
> I'm building my wing in our EAA chapter's hangar and the ceiling is too
tall
> to use the H-jig. As a substitute, we've built metal support structures
that
> are bolted to the floor. One support goes on each end of the spar during
> construction and we eliminate the cross bar. So far, we've built something
> like 12 wings this way and all of them have come out just fine.
>
> Let me know if you need more info.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> RV-9A
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
Hi Jennifer
The "H" jig is used only for the vertical stabilizer, so if it's not
convenient right now to build one in your garage that is the full length of
the wings you can just build one 55" long. Using this jig allows you to
ensure your VS is straight (no twist), before drilling. I did this but then
found it was too difficult to rivet it myself while mounted on this jig
(don't ask about that ding, aarrgh), so I riveted it on the bench, then
remounted it to check with a plumb bob, and it was perfect. This part is
quite easy and quick, should be able to do all the jig work in a few hours.
Normally this jig is built large enough to accommodate the wings as well
(133"), but the cross bar is not needed (its actually in the way, so I
removed it). When you get to the wings you will have to find room for the
wing jig which is just 2 posts with an adjustable bracket arm (you have to
make this(it is adjustable to remove any washout)) mounted on each one.
Building the wings on the jig is as much for convenience as for accuracy.
Truthfully, my kit has been so accurately prepunched that I believe I could
have built it all without either jig and it would still be straight, but I
don't think I would feel comfortable flying in a machine that I cut corners
on.
Todd Bartrim
13B RV9
almost Fuselage (as soon as the damn thing gets here)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of jennifer
> groceman
> Sent: June 1, 2001 3:47 PM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: H-frame question
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
> H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
> for? I am starting this project in the living room and cannot
> really attach
> anything to floor (and preferably not the ceiling). I have room in the
> garage to do this, but I was wondering how much time will be spent doing
> work on the jig; i.e. do stuff inside and then haul it out to the
> garage to
> finish it off, etc... Also if anyone has any ideas for alternatives to
> bolting to the floor (like building a more rigid free standing frame), I'd
> love to hear them.
> Thanks for the help,
> Jennifer Groceman
> Lake Worth, Florida
> RV9A - empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
Jennifer,
I concur with the others as to the neeed for the jig for empennage
assembly. I didn't use it(or builf it) until I started on the wings. One
option you might want to consider is a free standing portable wing jig on
casters that you can move around. You can take a look at the one that I
built at http://www.toddhoug.com under the wing jig section. I've found
this jig to be very useful. I created the support arms long enough to mount
a wing on either side of the jig to allow working on both simultaneously.
Of course you can't get between them, so you will need a temporary wing
storage to put one while working on the other. I mounted a couple of short
12" support arms to one wall of my garage and move one wing to there while
working on the other.
Welcome!
Todd Houg
St. Francis, MN
Wings, tanks 'n things
Hi All,
I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
for? I am starting this project in the living room and cannot really attach
anything to floor (and preferably not the ceiling). I have room in the
garage to do this, but I was wondering how much time will be spent doing
work on the jig; i.e. do stuff inside and then haul it out to the garage to
finish it off, etc... Also if anyone has any ideas for alternatives to
bolting to the floor (like building a more rigid free standing frame), I'd
love to hear them.
Thanks for the help,
Jennifer Groceman
Lake Worth, Florida
RV9A - empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
Todd,
I've been looking at your site for a while getting ideas. The wing jig, for
me, will need to be portable. My garage has a real tall ceiling and I can't do
the jackpost routine without some real problems with post length. How do you
solve any settling problems in the jig? If the wood warps or sags, how do you
tweak out any problems? I'm guessing the horizontal members don't really need
to be perfectly straight as long as the vertical posts are plumb and your
floor is a level reference for the spars.
I've got to plan ahead and figure out what to do before I buy any components of
the kit due to space limitations.
One builder on the web was using an I-beam jig for his fuselage. I was thinking
of trying the same thing for both the fuselage and the wings/tail. If I get
them made up to bolt together, I can take them apart when I'm done and donate
them to a local EAA chapter or save them for friends that night build one after
they see mine.
Still looking for ideas to make everything tuck away neatly into "my side" of
the garage after a building session.
Kevin Schlosser
-< PropellerHead >-
Future RV-7 Builder...
Still debating the canopy type: Tip Up / Slider (50/50) Was (20/80) :-)
Terry Jantzi's video totally screwed me up now.
----- Original Message -----
From: Todd Houg
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 2:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
Jennifer,
I concur with the others as to the neeed for the jig for empennage
assembly. I didn't use it(or builf it) until I started on the wings. One
option you might want to consider is a free standing portable wing jig on
casters that you can move around. You can take a look at the one that I
built at http://www.toddhoug.com under the wing jig section. I've found
this jig to be very useful. I created the support arms long enough to mount
a wing on either side of the jig to allow working on both simultaneously.
Of course you can't get between them, so you will need a temporary wing
storage to put one while working on the other. I mounted a couple of short
12" support arms to one wall of my garage and move one wing to there while
working on the other.
Welcome!
Todd Houg
St. Francis, MN
Wings, tanks 'n things
>
Hi All,
I'm finally getting started on my emp & it's time for me to build the
H-frame. Can someone tell me exactly what this "jig" is going to be used
for? I am starting this project in the living room and cannot really attach
anything to floor (and preferably not the ceiling). I have room in the
garage to do this, but I was wondering how much time will be spent doing
work on the jig; i.e. do stuff inside and then haul it out to the garage
to
finish it off, etc... Also if anyone has any ideas for alternatives to
bolting to the floor (like building a more rigid free standing frame), I'd
love to hear them.
Thanks for the help,
Jennifer Groceman
Lake Worth, Florida
RV9A - empennage
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Woodard" <dewoodard(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Deletion from RV9A list |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jennifer groceman <groceman(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi All,
Thanks for all the input on the jig, I appreciate the help. I am now
clecoing the ribs to the spars and found that I have one bad rib out of 10.
The rib does not fit into the forward spar (yes I can read a print & I have
it oriented correctly), I also measured it and found it to be 0.050 taller
than the others (at the location where it tucks into the spar). Also I
noticed that the flutes are right on top of the pre-drilled holes, the
others are not like this. Did anyone else have this problem, & if so, what
did you do?
Thanks much,
Jennifer Groceman
RV9A
Lake Worth, Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HS Main Ribs |
If it's bad-different from the others-I'm sure Vans would replace it.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on fuse
----- Original Message -----
> Hi All,
> Thanks for all the input on the jig, I appreciate the help. I am now
> clecoing the ribs to the spars and found that I have one bad rib out of
10.
> The rib does not fit into the forward spar (yes I can read a print & I
have
> it oriented correctly), I also measured it and found it to be 0.050 taller
> than the others (at the location where it tucks into the spar). Also I
> noticed that the flutes are right on top of the pre-drilled holes, the
> others are not like this. Did anyone else have this problem, & if so, what
> did you do?
> Thanks much,
> Jennifer Groceman
> RV9A
> Lake Worth, Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HS Main Ribs |
flutes can't be on the holes, so it is bad.
Barry RV9a Wings
Albert Gardner wrote:
>
>
> If it's bad-different from the others-I'm sure Vans would replace it.
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
> Working on fuse
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Hi All,
> > Thanks for all the input on the jig, I appreciate the help. I am now
> > clecoing the ribs to the spars and found that I have one bad rib out of
> 10.
> > The rib does not fit into the forward spar (yes I can read a print & I
> have
> > it oriented correctly), I also measured it and found it to be 0.050 taller
> > than the others (at the location where it tucks into the spar). Also I
> > noticed that the flutes are right on top of the pre-drilled holes, the
> > others are not like this. Did anyone else have this problem, & if so, what
> > did you do?
> > Thanks much,
> > Jennifer Groceman
> > RV9A
> > Lake Worth, Florida
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
Hello Kevin,
One thing to keep in mind is that the wing jig for the RV-9 (and also now
the RV-7 and RV-8 with match drilled tooling) is not critical in terms of
stability and alignment. The older wing kits with only pre-punched skins
required a four point attachment to the wing jig - main and rear spars at
both ends. Thus it was imperative that these four points all be in the same
plane to keep from building a twist into the wing when you drilled the
skins to the ribs. According to Van's, the wing jig for the RV-9 is more of
a convenience than necessity.
As such the only jig attachment points for the wings is at either end of
the main spar. As long as your not clamping the spar so tightly to the
support arms that you would cause a twist in the spar, you're pretty much
gauranteed that things will be straight (even then the holes probably
wouldn't line up until you straightened).
Case in point . . .
After assembling (with clecos only - no rivets) the wing structure, leading
edge, tanks and skins using the match drilled holes, I measured the
trueness as reccomended in the plans. Droping a plumb bob from either end
at the main spar and measuring to the rear spar, I found them to be within
1/32" of each other and within the margin of error of my measuring
technique. I now have one wing complete with all but the bottom skins and
find about the same degree of accuacy.
Thus the stability of your jig is not very critical. I did build my
uprights out of 2x10 micro-lam beams that I ripped down and glued up to
make 4x4 posts, but it probably wasn't necessary. I don't worry about minor
imperfections in the floor level, I just keep the wing(s) mounted as the
plans call for with a piece of angle attached to the outboard rib resting
on a support arm and let the spar rest on the other support arm. I usually
keep a quick-grip clamp on either end just to make sure I don't
accidentally push one end off the support arm - I sure don;t want to drop
one on the floor!
Good luck!
Todd Houg
N194TH (reserved)
One tank almost done - yuck!
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Schlosser [mailto:kevinschlosser(at)msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
Todd,
I've been looking at your site for a while getting ideas. The wing jig, for
me, will need to be portable. My garage has a real tall ceiling and I can't do
the jackpost routine without some real problems with post length. How do you
solve any settling problems in the jig? If the wood warps or sags, how do you
tweak out any problems? I'm guessing the horizontal members don't really need
to be perfectly straight as long as the vertical posts are plumb and your
floor is a level reference for the spars.
I've got to plan ahead and figure out what to do before I buy any components of
the kit due to space limitations.
<<<<< Big Snip >>>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
Todd,
You make some excellent points. I just wanted to reiterate the importance of
NOT securely mounting the spars to the jig. I did attach one end firmly, but
the other end just rests on the jig so that the wing can pull itself into
alignment. I used a bolt in a hole to keep the spar from moving laterally
and falling off the jig.
I also had only 1/32" of twist from one end of the wing to the other, about
the thickness of the plumb bob string.
Cliff
www.barefootpilot.com
>
> Hello Kevin,
>
> One thing to keep in mind is that the wing jig for the RV-9 (and also now
> the RV-7 and RV-8 with match drilled tooling) is not critical in terms of
> stability and alignment. The older wing kits with only pre-punched skins
> required a four point attachment to the wing jig - main and rear spars at
> both ends. Thus it was imperative that these four points all be in the
same
> plane to keep from building a twist into the wing when you drilled the
> skins to the ribs. According to Van's, the wing jig for the RV-9 is more
of
> a convenience than necessity.
>
> As such the only jig attachment points for the wings is at either end of
> the main spar. As long as your not clamping the spar so tightly to the
> support arms that you would cause a twist in the spar, you're pretty much
> gauranteed that things will be straight (even then the holes probably
> wouldn't line up until you straightened).
>
> Case in point . . .
> After assembling (with clecos only - no rivets) the wing structure,
leading
> edge, tanks and skins using the match drilled holes, I measured the
> trueness as reccomended in the plans. Droping a plumb bob from either end
> at the main spar and measuring to the rear spar, I found them to be within
> 1/32" of each other and within the margin of error of my measuring
> technique. I now have one wing complete with all but the bottom skins and
> find about the same degree of accuacy.
>
> Thus the stability of your jig is not very critical. I did build my
> uprights out of 2x10 micro-lam beams that I ripped down and glued up to
> make 4x4 posts, but it probably wasn't necessary. I don't worry about
minor
> imperfections in the floor level, I just keep the wing(s) mounted as the
> plans call for with a piece of angle attached to the outboard rib resting
> on a support arm and let the spar rest on the other support arm. I usually
> keep a quick-grip clamp on either end just to make sure I don't
> accidentally push one end off the support arm - I sure don;t want to drop
> one on the floor!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Todd Houg
> N194TH (reserved)
> One tank almost done - yuck!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | scott grant <scottygrant(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
Todd, I'm building an RV-7, and you're right about the
wings, but I'd still recommend a stable jig to prevent
a twisted HS or VS in the empennage since those aren't
pre-drilled (save the rear spar). I could see a
situation where one builds the skeleton, mounts it in
the jig, waits a month or two, then drills the skin(s)
to the skeleton after the wood has moved around a bit.
Case in point: I originally built a 4X4 jig and
found that the vertical beams twisted after a week or
so. Multiply the angular twist by length of the two
1/4" bolts on either end, and the result could be a
crooked tail. I ended up using 3X3 square steel
tubing faced with 2X4 wood, and the expense was not
much different. Additionally, during the riveting and
process, you do bear down on the structure just a bit,
and you don't want a lot of jig flexing going on.
Just my 0.02.....
Regards,
Scott
--- tchoug wrote:
>
>
> Hello Kevin,
>
> One thing to keep in mind is that the wing jig for
> the RV-9 (and also now
> the RV-7 and RV-8 with match drilled tooling) is not
> critical in terms of
> stability and alignment. The older wing kits with
> only pre-punched skins
> required a four point attachment to the wing jig -
> main and rear spars at
> both ends. Thus it was imperative that these four
> points all be in the same
> plane to keep from building a twist into the wing
> when you drilled the
> skins to the ribs. According to Van's, the wing jig
> for the RV-9 is more of
> a convenience than necessity.
>
> As such the only jig attachment points for the wings
> is at either end of
> the main spar. As long as your not clamping the spar
> so tightly to the
> support arms that you would cause a twist in the
> spar, you're pretty much
> gauranteed that things will be straight (even then
> the holes probably
> wouldn't line up until you straightened).
>
> Case in point . . .
> After assembling (with clecos only - no rivets) the
> wing structure, leading
> edge, tanks and skins using the match drilled holes,
> I measured the
> trueness as reccomended in the plans. Droping a
> plumb bob from either end
> at the main spar and measuring to the rear spar, I
> found them to be within
> 1/32" of each other and within the margin of error
> of my measuring
> technique. I now have one wing complete with all but
> the bottom skins and
> find about the same degree of accuacy.
>
> Thus the stability of your jig is not very critical.
> I did build my
> uprights out of 2x10 micro-lam beams that I ripped
> down and glued up to
> make 4x4 posts, but it probably wasn't necessary. I
> don't worry about minor
> imperfections in the floor level, I just keep the
> wing(s) mounted as the
> plans call for with a piece of angle attached to the
> outboard rib resting
> on a support arm and let the spar rest on the other
> support arm. I usually
> keep a quick-grip clamp on either end just to make
> sure I don't
> accidentally push one end off the support arm - I
> sure don;t want to drop
> one on the floor!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Todd Houg
> N194TH (reserved)
> One tank almost done - yuck!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Schlosser
> [mailto:kevinschlosser(at)msn.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:56 AM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
>
>
>
>
> Todd,
>
> I've been looking at your site for a while getting
> ideas. The wing jig> , for me, will need to be portable. My garage has a
> real tall ceiling an> d I can't do the jackpost routine without some real
> problems with post le> ngth. How do you solve any settling problems in the
> jig? If the wood wa> rps or sags, how do you tweak out any problems? I'm
> guessing the horizon> tal members don't really need to be perfectly
> straight as long as the ver> tical posts are plumb and your floor is a level
> reference for the spars.
> I've got to plan ahead and figure out what to do
> before I buy any compon> ents of the kit due to space limitations.
>
> <<<<< Big Snip >>>>>>
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
That's a good point Scott, since the -7 and -8 don't have match drilled
parts for the empennage. This is not the case for the -9 as everything but
the VS have match drilled components. I built my HS entirely on the
workbench in the V blocks as recommended in the plans. However, as you
indicated, a stable jig is needed for the HS on the -7 and -8.
The VS can be built in the jig as only the rear spar and skins are match
drilled. Many builders (myself included)have not used the jig but built it
on the workbench. After assembling the VS spars and ribs then clecoing the
skin on to the rear spar (prior to drilling to the ribs and front spar) I
found that it was extermely difficult to "force" any twist into the VS.
After checking the trueness with a plumb bob at both ends I decided that it
didn't require mounting in the jig.
Good Luck,
Todd Houg
RV-9A
-----Original Message-----
From: scott grant [mailto:scottygrant(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: H-frame question
Todd, I'm building an RV-7, and you're right about the
wings, but I'd still recommend a stable jig to prevent
a twisted HS or VS in the empennage since those aren't
pre-drilled (save the rear spar). I could see a
situation where one builds the skeleton, mounts it in
the jig, waits a month or two, then drills the skin(s)
to the skeleton after the wood has moved around a bit.
Case in point: I originally built a 4X4 jig and
found that the vertical beams twisted after a week or
so. Multiply the angular twist by length of the two
1/4" bolts on either end, and the result could be a
crooked tail. I ended up using 3X3 square steel
tubing faced with 2X4 wood, and the expense was not
much different. Additionally, during the riveting and
process, you do bear down on the structure just a bit,
and you don't want a lot of jig flexing going on.
Just my 0.02.....
Regards,
Scott
--- tchoug wrote:
>
>
> Hello Kevin,
>
> One thing to keep in mind is that the wing jig for
> the RV-9 (and also now
> the RV-7 and RV-8 with match drilled tooling) is not
> critical in terms of
> stability and alignment. The older wing kits with
> only pre-punched skins
> required a four point attachment to the wing jig -
> main and rear spars at
> both ends. Thus it was imperative that these four
> points all be in the same
> plane to keep from building a twist into the wing
> when you drilled the
> skins to the ribs. According to Van's, the wing jig
> for the RV-9 is more of
> a convenience than necessity.
>
> As such the only jig attachment points for the wings
> is at either end of
> the main spar. As long as your not clamping the spar
> so tightly to the
> support arms that you would cause a twist in the
> spar, you're pretty much
> gauranteed that things will be straight (even then
> the holes probably
> wouldn't line up until you straightened).
>
> Case in point . . .
> After assembling (with clecos only - no rivets) the
> wing structure, leading
> edge, tanks and skins using the match drilled holes,
> I measured the
> trueness as reccomended in the plans. Droping a
> plumb bob from either end
> at the main spar and measuring to the rear spar, I
> found them to be within
> 1/32" of each other and within the margin of error
> of my measuring
> technique. I now have one wing complete with all but
> the bottom skins and
> find about the same degree of accuacy.
>
> Thus the stability of your jig is not very critical.
> I did build my
> uprights out of 2x10 micro-lam beams that I ripped
> down and glued up to
> make 4x4 posts, but it probably wasn't necessary. I
> don't worry about minor
> imperfections in the floor level, I just keep the
> wing(s) mounted as the
> plans call for with a piece of angle attached to the
> outboard rib resting
> on a support arm and let the spar rest on the other
> support arm. I usually
> keep a quick-grip clamp on either end just to make
> sure I don't
> accidentally push one end off the support arm - I
> sure don;t want to drop
> one on the floor!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Todd Houg
> N194TH (reserved)
> One tank almost done - yuck!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Schlosser
> [mailto:kevinschlosser(at)msn.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:56 AM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
>
>
>
>
> Todd,
>
> I've been looking at your site for a while getting
> ideas. The wing jig> , for me, will need to be portable. My garage has a
> real tall ceiling an> d I can't do the jackpost routine without some real
> problems with post le> ngth. How do you solve any settling problems in the
> jig? If the wood wa> rps or sags, how do you tweak out any problems? I'm
> guessing the horizon> tal members don't really need to be perfectly
> straight as long as the ver> tical posts are plumb and your floor is a level
> reference for the spars.
> I've got to plan ahead and figure out what to do
> before I buy any compon> ents of the kit due to space limitations.
>
> <<<<< Big Snip >>>>>>
>
>
>
> through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Schindler (MG)" <markschindler(at)mitchellgold.com> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
1. I would say that's about as much as anyone cay say about the H-frame.
2. I guess no one is paying attention to list administrator request - not to
copy original message in reply.
Mark "remember who loves you" Schindler
NERD
-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Oliveira <Oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: H-frame question |
The RV 9a must be different than the RV7 and still maintains some
"easier to build" notoriety. The Stab is also pre drilled, all ribs and
spars on the . Just need the cradles.
John Oliveira
9a left wing and tank done.
scott grant wrote:
>
> Todd, I'm building an RV-7, and you're right about the
> wings, but I'd still recommend a stable jig to prevent
> a twisted HS or VS in the empennage since those aren't
> pre-drilled (save the rear spar). I could see a
> situation where one builds the skeleton, mounts it in
> the jig, waits a month or two, then drills the skin(s)
> to the skeleton after the wood has moved around a bit.
> Case in point: I originally built a 4X4 jig and
> found that the vertical beams twisted after a week or
> so. Multiply the angular twist by length of the two
> 1/4" bolts on either end, and the result could be a
> crooked tail. I ended up using 3X3 square steel
> tubing faced with 2X4 wood, and the expense was not
> much different. Additionally, during the riveting and
> process, you do bear down on the structure just a bit,
> and you don't want a lot of jig flexing going on.
>
> Just my 0.02.....
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
> --- tchoug wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello Kevin,
> >
> > One thing to keep in mind is that the wing jig for
> > the RV-9 (and also now
> > the RV-7 and RV-8 with match drilled tooling) is not
> > critical in terms of
> > stability and alignment. The older wing kits with
> > only pre-punched skins
> > required a four point attachment to the wing jig -
> > main and rear spars at
> > both ends. Thus it was imperative that these four
> > points all be in the same
> > plane to keep from building a twist into the wing
> > when you drilled the
> > skins to the ribs. According to Van's, the wing jig
> > for the RV-9 is more of
> > a convenience than necessity.
> >
> > As such the only jig attachment points for the wings
> > is at either end of
> > the main spar. As long as your not clamping the spar
> > so tightly to the
> > support arms that you would cause a twist in the
> > spar, you're pretty much
> > gauranteed that things will be straight (even then
> > the holes probably
> > wouldn't line up until you straightened).
> >
> > Case in point . . .
> > After assembling (with clecos only - no rivets) the
> > wing structure, leading
> > edge, tanks and skins using the match drilled holes,
> > I measured the
> > trueness as reccomended in the plans. Droping a
> > plumb bob from either end
> > at the main spar and measuring to the rear spar, I
> > found them to be within
> > 1/32" of each other and within the margin of error
> > of my measuring
> > technique. I now have one wing complete with all but
> > the bottom skins and
> > find about the same degree of accuacy.
> >
> > Thus the stability of your jig is not very critical.
> > I did build my
> > uprights out of 2x10 micro-lam beams that I ripped
> > down and glued up to
> > make 4x4 posts, but it probably wasn't necessary. I
> > don't worry about minor
> > imperfections in the floor level, I just keep the
> > wing(s) mounted as the
> > plans call for with a piece of angle attached to the
> > outboard rib resting
> > on a support arm and let the spar rest on the other
> > support arm. I usually
> > keep a quick-grip clamp on either end just to make
> > sure I don't
> > accidentally push one end off the support arm - I
> > sure don;t want to drop
> > one on the floor!
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Todd Houg
> > N194TH (reserved)
> > One tank almost done - yuck!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kevin Schlosser
> > [mailto:kevinschlosser(at)msn.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:56 AM
> > To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV9-List: H-frame question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Todd,
> >
> > I've been looking at your site for a while getting
> > ideas. The wing jig> > , for me, will need to be portable. My garage has
a
> > real tall ceiling an> > d I can't do the jackpost routine without some real
> > problems with post le> > ngth. How do you solve any settling problems in the
> > jig? If the wood wa> > rps or sags, how do you tweak out any problems? I'm
> > guessing the horizon> > tal members don't really need to be perfectly
> > straight as long as the ver> > tical posts are plumb and your floor is a level
> > reference for the spars.
> > I've got to plan ahead and figure out what to do
> > before I buy any compon> > ents of the kit due to space limitations.
> >
> > <<<<< Big Snip >>>>>>
> >
> >
> >
> > through
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> > Matronics!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | 'Angled ' HS905 nose rib |
Has anyone had any difficulty with the 'angled' HS905 nose ribs?
All my ribs are very straight with almost no need for crimp adjustements
to get the holes in nice straight lines. However the inner HS905 row of
holes are offset slightly from those on the HS904. It is possibly that
the right angle bend has been formed slightly incorrectly. I also may be
worrying about nothing (I am still very much a beginner) and when I
cleco it to the skin, it will sort itself out.
Comments welcome!
Thanks, Steve.
PS This issue aside everything is amazingly 'correct'.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 'Angled ' HS905 nose rib |
Hi Steve,
I am just at the point of priming the Horizontal Stabilizer, so I've already
gone through the "fitting of the ribs". I found I had to increase the
offset of the two flutes on the two inner HS905 pieces to get the last two
holes to line up well. When I thought about it, it seemed reasonable that
the spacing of the "straight" ribs should be different than the spacing of
the "11 ribs", although not much. I probably brought the nose of those two
ribs in maybe 1/16" all together.
BTW, I made my own fluting pliers by brazing a 1/8" bar onto the jaw of a
cheap pair of 8" slip-joint pliers and grinding a matching 3/16" groove in
the opposite jaw. (Total cost: $8, total time: 1 hr). The commercial
pliers I have seen make a very large flute (1/4" to 3/8" across the upset.)
Dave Nicholson
Danville, IL
RV-9a
Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: 'Angled ' HS905 nose rib |
Dave - Thanks!
Nice to know I am not too far behind someone! Steve.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: 'Angled ' HS905 nose rib
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I am just at the point of priming the Horizontal Stabilizer, so I've
already
> gone through the "fitting of the ribs". I found I had to increase the
> offset of the two flutes on the two inner HS905 pieces to get the last two
> holes to line up well. When I thought about it, it seemed reasonable that
> the spacing of the "straight" ribs should be different than the spacing of
> the "11 ribs", although not much. I probably brought the nose of those
two
> ribs in maybe 1/16" all together.
>
> BTW, I made my own fluting pliers by brazing a 1/8" bar onto the jaw of a
> cheap pair of 8" slip-joint pliers and grinding a matching 3/16" groove in
> the opposite jaw. (Total cost: $8, total time: 1 hr). The commercial
> pliers I have seen make a very large flute (1/4" to 3/8" across the
upset.)
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> RV-9a
> Empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dean van winkle" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net> |
| Subject: | H-frame question |
The horizontal piece of the H-frame is only required for assembly of the
vertical stabilizer of the RV-9A. Not having the wing kit at the time,
I chose to make a simple rectangular 2x4 frame attached to a stable
workstand and avoid buying a 4x4 of then unknown length. Using a plumb
bob, the vertical stabilizer skeleton was then secured in place prior to
clecoing the skin to the rear spar and drilling the rest of the skeleton
to match. I personally would not be comfortable with the alignment of
this part without using some sort of jig.
As for the wing jig, the span of the assembled wing skins is 128 inches.
I used 2 inch aluminum angle for the wing spar supports, thus the 133
inch dimension between the 4x4s given on Van's Dwg 15 gave 1/2 inch
clearance on each end of the skins. I hope this will clarify some much
earlier posts on the spacing question that I personally found confusing
( I had to move a 4x4 ).
Dean Van Winkle
Virden, Il
13B RV-9A
Prosealing first tank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
I am in the process of putting the Vertical Stabilizer together and the
instructions indicate if I want to put a strobe or other lighting on the
vertical stabilizer, I should provide the necessary wiring runs and access
details before the stabilizer skin is riveted on.
What does that mean? It seems like a good idea to put a strobe up there,
but just what kind of wiring runs and access will I need at this time?
Has anyone out there put a strobe on their RV-9a Vertical Stabilizer?
Dave Nicholson
Danville, IL
Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
Dave,
I used the Whalon tail strobe that goes into the fiberglass rudder bottom
cap and you have to specify the rudder cap with light when ordering but you
can probably trade it out with Vans. All this light requires is two wires
that go between the VS and the rudder. Look at any RV-6 with tail lights for
wiring. This provides a white light for the tail and a strobe for the tail
of the plane in one unit.
I am using the Whalon strobe kits for the wings also. I installed four plate
nuts on the outboard nose rib and will install the high voltage units there.
I am also using the Duckworth landing lights in both wings so I should be
lit up fairly well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
Yep. The typical strobe installation goes on the lower rudder fiberglass tip.
That was an option you should have ordered. You can probably trade your
non-lighted one for a lighted one.
I have a Whelen combo strobe-position light. Beware that the wingtip
strobes, because of the way the tip is designed, do not shine rearward
enough to qualify for night VFR. Thus, you need a rearward facing strobe.
As for the wiring, if you use nut-plates and screws instead of rivets to
attach your rudder bottom tip, you can deal with the wiring later. I didn't
try to run the wires because the plans don't specify where they should
emerge. Now that I have the fuselage kit, I see it's no big deal.
Gary Newsted
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nicholson <dnick2(at)home.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing
>
> I am in the process of putting the Vertical Stabilizer together and the
> instructions indicate if I want to put a strobe or other lighting on the
> vertical stabilizer, I should provide the necessary wiring runs and access
> details before the stabilizer skin is riveted on.
>
> What does that mean? It seems like a good idea to put a strobe up there,
> but just what kind of wiring runs and access will I need at this time?
>
> Has anyone out there put a strobe on their RV-9a Vertical Stabilizer?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> Empennage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
Dave,
I can't speak from any real experience ( I just ordered tail and wing
kit ) but I did anticipate this very problem. I wanted to have the light
components in hand as I was building to make sure I made the proper
provisions ( wires, plugs ) . I decided on a light package from Whelen and
sold through Van's web store knowned as "Option 6". After determining the
light you want to use, Whelen has installation and wiring info on their web
site ( Whelen.com ) Their are a mutitude of light options available and I
found Van's lighting section on their web page very helpfull.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=992407094-502-576&brow
se=lighting
Guy ( waiting for parts )
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nicholson <dnick2(at)home.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing
>
> I am in the process of putting the Vertical Stabilizer together and the
> instructions indicate if I want to put a strobe or other lighting on the
> vertical stabilizer, I should provide the necessary wiring runs and access
> details before the stabilizer skin is riveted on.
>
> What does that mean? It seems like a good idea to put a strobe up there,
> but just what kind of wiring runs and access will I need at this time?
>
> Has anyone out there put a strobe on their RV-9a Vertical Stabilizer?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> Empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
on 6/13/01 7:39 AM, Gary & Sandi at flying(at)3rivers.net wrote:
> If you want to put lights on the stab tip, what you need for now is to
> install wiring conduit inside the stab. I used some nylon tubing, and
> drilled holes in the center of the ribs with the Unibit.
Instead of using conduit, I just put a snap bushing in the center rib. I
figured I could put snap bushings in the top and bottom ribs at a later date
if I actually need to run wires through the VS.
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
Hi ,
I just received my Whelen light kit from Vans today. It came with long
piece of PVC shielded cable which they say is "an excellent chafe resistant
material and seldom requires additional conduit".
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
>
> on 6/13/01 7:39 AM, Gary & Sandi at flying(at)3rivers.net wrote:
>
>
> > If you want to put lights on the stab tip, what you need for now is to
> > install wiring conduit inside the stab. I used some nylon tubing, and
> > drilled holes in the center of the ribs with the Unibit.
>
>
> Instead of using conduit, I just put a snap bushing in the center rib. I
> figured I could put snap bushings in the top and bottom ribs at a later
date
> if I actually need to run wires through the VS.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | F-706 Bulkhead Assembly Question |
I have a question for those RV-9A listers who have completed their bulkheads
and fitted them on the saw horses (Page 8-3 and DWG 26).
I have completed my bulheads and am now beginning to assemble the rear
fuselage on the saw horses. It is starting tto look like a real plane ! !
Problem ? ? I have rivetted the bellcrank support ribs. I rivetted the
F-728B angle to the F-728A bellcrank channel. I have not rivetted the
assembly to the bulkhead (F-706 and the F-730 reinforcing plate). Vans says
to drill them but don't rivet them yet. Looking ahead I can't see where I
could not work around. Am I being a little naive - again? Thanks.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235-N2C Planning Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> |
I'm new to the kit-plane thing but not to the electronics thing.
I would suggest you use rubber grommets at a minimum regardless
of the type of insulation on the wire when going through any
conductive material like the ribs or bulkheads. Even though
cables have been said to be chafing resistant, I've still seen
them wear through and short. For something my butt is going
to sit in at altitude, I'd rather minimize the chance of something
stupid to happen.
I can see it now, chafing leads to short, leads to marker light
failure, leads to you being invisible to approaching aircraft...
I'm not paranoid, I just know Murphy is alive and well and
in the passenger seat!
As my electronic controls professor used to tell me, "You need
to obey the law of the six "P's"... Prior Proper Planning Precludes
Pi$$ Poor Performance!"
-=< PropellerHead >=-
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Votuc
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
Hi ,
I just received my Whelen light kit from Vans today. It came with long
piece of PVC shielded cable which they say is "an excellent chafe resistant
material and seldom requires additional conduit".
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
>
> on 6/13/01 7:39 AM, Gary & Sandi at flying(at)3rivers.net wrote:
>
>
> > If you want to put lights on the stab tip, what you need for now is to
> > install wiring conduit inside the stab. I used some nylon tubing, and
> > drilled holes in the center of the ribs with the Unibit.
>
>
> Instead of using conduit, I just put a snap bushing in the center rib. I
> figured I could put snap bushings in the top and bottom ribs at a later
date
> if I actually need to run wires through the VS.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
I agree, remember the old carbon type spark plug wires we had to live
with for several years ? It looked like the forth of July under a dark car
hood .....
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Schlosser <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
>
> I'm new to the kit-plane thing but not to the electronics thing.
> I would suggest you use rubber grommets at a minimum regardless
> of the type of insulation on the wire when going through any
> conductive material like the ribs or bulkheads. Even though
> cables have been said to be chafing resistant, I've still seen
> them wear through and short. For something my butt is going
> to sit in at altitude, I'd rather minimize the chance of something
> stupid to happen.
>
> I can see it now, chafing leads to short, leads to marker light
> failure, leads to you being invisible to approaching aircraft...
>
> I'm not paranoid, I just know Murphy is alive and well and
> in the passenger seat!
>
> As my electronic controls professor used to tell me, "You need
> to obey the law of the six "P's"... Prior Proper Planning Precludes
> Pi$$ Poor Performance!"
>
> -=< PropellerHead >=-
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Guy Votuc
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:42 PM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
>
>
> Hi ,
>
> I just received my Whelen light kit from Vans today. It came with
long
> piece of PVC shielded cable which they say is "an excellent chafe
resistant
> material and seldom requires additional conduit".
>
> Guy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: VS wiring
>
>
> >
> > on 6/13/01 7:39 AM, Gary & Sandi at flying(at)3rivers.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > > If you want to put lights on the stab tip, what you need for now is
to
> > > install wiring conduit inside the stab. I used some nylon tubing, and
> > > drilled holes in the center of the ribs with the Unibit.
> >
> >
> > Instead of using conduit, I just put a snap bushing in the center rib. I
> > figured I could put snap bushings in the top and bottom ribs at a later
> date
> > if I actually need to run wires through the VS.
> >
> > Mark Schrimmer
> > Irvine, CA
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: F-706 Bulkhead Rivet Question |
One of the Top Ten Rules of Building Metal Airplanes and directly
related to Murphy's Law is "never rivet until you have to"--a simple
error requiring the removal of clecoes is greatly compounded when you
have to loose the dreaded drill bit on those premature rivets. And, I
never heard anyone say that keeping clecoes in has damaged their rivet
holes--rivet drilling does.
Boyd Braem
Ernest Kells wrote:
>
>
> I have a question for those RV-9A listers who have completed their bulkheads
> and fitted them on the saw horses (Page 8-3 and DWG 26).
>
> I have completed my bulheads and am now beginning to assemble the rear
> fuselage on the saw horses. It is starting tto look like a real plane ! !
> Problem ? ? I have rivetted the bellcrank support ribs. I rivetted the
> F-728B angle to the F-728A bellcrank channel. I have not rivetted the
> assembly to the bulkhead (F-706 and the F-730 reinforcing plate). Vans says
> to drill them but don't rivet them yet. Looking ahead I can't see where I
> could not work around. Am I being a little naive - again? Thanks.
>
> Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235-N2C Planning Wood Prop
> Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VS wiring and chafe |
Nothing, but nothing, is "chafe resistant" in an aircraft, esp. the one
that carries your own butt around. Always use "Accepted Methods...."
for securing wiring--tie wraps, grommets, bushings, Adell clamps,
conduit or whatever is appropriate to the location of the wire.
Boyd Braem
Guy Votuc wrote:
>
>
> Hi ,
>
> I just received my Whelen light kit from Vans today. It came with long
> piece of PVC shielded cable which they say is "an excellent chafe resistant
> material and seldom requires additional conduit".
>
> Guy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> |
> As my electronic controls professor used to tell me, "You need
> to obey the law of the six "P's"... Prior Proper Planning Precludes
> Pi$$ Poor Performance!"
Ooopps, meant 7.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
It's not only a light that you might want to put up there but also a nav
antenna, in which case you'd want enough room for the coax.
Here is one example of a VS strobe installation.
http://bmnellis.com/BuilderIdeas/paul_golias_ideas.htm
I don't have it on my web site, but I can email you a picture of a NAV
antenna installation on an RV if you're interested.
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Plainfield, IL
RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps
Stinson 108-2 N9666K
>
> I am in the process of putting the Vertical Stabilizer together and the
> instructions indicate if I want to put a strobe or other lighting on the
> vertical stabilizer, I should provide the necessary wiring runs and access
> details before the stabilizer skin is riveted on.
>
> What does that mean? It seems like a good idea to put a strobe up there,
> but just what kind of wiring runs and access will I need at this time?
>
> Has anyone out there put a strobe on their RV-9a Vertical Stabilizer?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> Empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing |
I've had a couple of offline requests to see the NAV installation on the VS.
These pictures also show a stobe/Nav installation.
Follow the new additions links here. http://bmnellis.com
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Vertical Stabalizer Lightiing
>
> I am in the process of putting the Vertical Stabilizer together and the
> instructions indicate if I want to put a strobe or other lighting on the
> vertical stabilizer, I should provide the necessary wiring runs and access
> details before the stabilizer skin is riveted on.
>
> What does that mean? It seems like a good idea to put a strobe up there,
> but just what kind of wiring runs and access will I need at this time?
>
> Has anyone out there put a strobe on their RV-9a Vertical Stabilizer?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> Empennage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
Rubber grommets?!? Please no... Use the nylon or PVC ones sold by all
A/C suppliers. Rubber has a nasty tendancy to dry-rot, particularly when
exposed to environmental extremes. Also, for those choosing to use the
PVC conduit sold by Vans. My experience with this has been favorable, but
you might consider putting a drop of weatherstrip adhesive on each location
where the conduit passes through the ribs to kill vibration. Over time, even
this conduit can crack, leaving wires against sharp metal. I drilled .75"
holes
with a Unibit in the bottom-rear rib tooling holes. This requires some
finesse to tug the conduit through, but it fits reasonably well.
Another tip if you go this route, is to drill the conduit hole in the fifth rib
from root
a little closer to the bottom surface so the conduit can pass by the control
horn
without interference. I chose to use two adel clamps in the control horn
attach bolts
(per plan suggestion) to keep the conduit clear. There are five wires passing
through the conduit if you do the full trip (strobe, strobe-sync, position,
landing,
and coax if you use embedded wingtip nav/com antennas). I am going to run the
strobe sync wires through a switch because my CFII and I disagree about whether
twice the flash rate is better than half the flashes that are twice as bright.
No, I've
not got much better to think about in the basement.
So, clamp the wires at one end to prevent shifting. Wings actually bend in
flight
(anyone have any idea how much an RV bends? Might be worth a trivia beer
some day).
Aside from the obvious, you sparkies want to be careful with the 400vdc+
fire-wire
for the strobes. This circuit can cause radio interference and should be kept
short and
away from the fuel tank wing section. It is OK to run it through the conduit
along
side your antenna coax as long as the coax is well grounded at one end only.
Think
too about how you are going to access the strobe power supplies. If you put
them
under the wingtip, you've got a nasty little bit of work, and chipped paint, if
you need
to replace one, and it's always a good idea to minimize weight that far out;
do the lateral W&B calc (1.7lbs @ 128"). I found the center inspection hole
works
OK, and by removing one plate you see the works. Four plate-nuts on a rib does
it.
I've posted a large print wing schematic on my web site if you want to have a
look.
www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm Hit the "Wiring" link. I'll probably
continue
to post these since I want my own set anyway and wiring has a way of scaring
folks.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
...a clarification... when you run your strobe harness it is the
shielding of the strobe wires that is to be grounded on one end only,
not your antenna coax! Wire the antenna as the antenna mfg suggests.
I should have looked at my own schematic...
The wingtip mounted antennas (i.e. Bob Archer) require ground-plane
considerations. The RV9 fiberglass wingtips mount inside the wing skin,
so you have to do a little bending of the antenna ground plane to tuck it
under the fiberglass and in contact with the skin metal. Bob says this is OK.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
Well, I've been watching, reading, following the various RV lists for
years, waiting for the right time to make the plunge. The time has
come!!!
I spent yesterday at the Vans factory, got my wife and I a demo ride in
the 9A (WOW what a plane) and brought home my tail kit. So, I'll soon
be
joining in the fun here.
My background...
I in the Seattle WA area. (Auburn actually) I have built a MiniMax
ultralight 2 years ago, and am new to metal construction, but not
homebuilding. Should be lots of fun ahead.
The highlight of the demo ride was when I pointed out to Scott Risen
that we had just busted through my MiniMax's VNE on initial climb out
and we were going up at 1700+ FPM with 2 people and full fuel. YAAA
HOOO...
- Andy Karmy
Auburn, WA
RV9A - Tail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
on 6/14/01 2:28 PM, Andy Karmy at andy.karmy(at)home.com wrote:
>
> Well, I've been watching, reading, following the various RV lists for
> years, waiting for the right time to make the plunge.
Congratulations, Andy, and welcome to the RV9A club!
Mark Schrimmer
Working on RV9A flaps
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
Hey Andy,
You probably got the tail kit I just ordered ! Oh well hope they have more
, and one wing kit to boot.
Guy A. Votuc ( finishing garage(
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:28 PM
Subject: RV9-List: I did it!
>
> Well, I've been watching, reading, following the various RV lists for
> years, waiting for the right time to make the plunge. The time has
> come!!!
>
> I spent yesterday at the Vans factory, got my wife and I a demo ride in
> the 9A (WOW what a plane) and brought home my tail kit. So, I'll soon
> be
> joining in the fun here.
>
> My background...
>
> I in the Seattle WA area. (Auburn actually) I have built a MiniMax
> ultralight 2 years ago, and am new to metal construction, but not
> homebuilding. Should be lots of fun ahead.
>
> The highlight of the demo ride was when I pointed out to Scott Risen
> that we had just busted through my MiniMax's VNE on initial climb out
> and we were going up at 1700+ FPM with 2 people and full fuel. YAAA
> HOOO...
>
> - Andy Karmy
> Auburn, WA
> RV9A - Tail
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
Well, when I picked up mine (ordered Monday) there was another kit all
packed up stacked right next to it, so most likely that was it!
I was worried about having to wait with the airshow season comming up etc,
while there I saw the chalk board in the shop that showed over 70 rv9 tail's
in stock waiting for people to order...
- Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: I did it!
>
> Hey Andy,
>
>
> You probably got the tail kit I just ordered ! Oh well hope they have
more
> , and one wing kit to boot.
>
>
> Guy A. Votuc ( finishing garage(
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:28 PM
> Subject: RV9-List: I did it!
>
>
> >
> > Well, I've been watching, reading, following the various RV lists for
> > years, waiting for the right time to make the plunge. The time has
> > come!!!
> >
> > I spent yesterday at the Vans factory, got my wife and I a demo ride in
> > the 9A (WOW what a plane) and brought home my tail kit. So, I'll soon
> > be
> > joining in the fun here.
> >
> > My background...
> >
> > I in the Seattle WA area. (Auburn actually) I have built a MiniMax
> > ultralight 2 years ago, and am new to metal construction, but not
> > homebuilding. Should be lots of fun ahead.
> >
> > The highlight of the demo ride was when I pointed out to Scott Risen
> > that we had just busted through my MiniMax's VNE on initial climb out
> > and we were going up at 1700+ FPM with 2 people and full fuel. YAAA
> > HOOO...
> >
> > - Andy Karmy
> > Auburn, WA
> > RV9A - Tail
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
Andy,
What is your kit # ?
Just curious to know how many -9's have now been sold.
Cliff
>
> Well, when I picked up mine (ordered Monday) there was another kit all
> packed up stacked right next to it, so most likely that was it!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wesley T Robinson" <wesleyt(at)twave.net> |
| Subject: | Tank Attach Angles |
Listers,
I am at the point of sealing the rear RV-9A tank baffle and cannot see
how to fit a regular pop rivet tool beside the angle to pull the pop
rivets.
Did any of you use a different method of pulling the rivets.
Any help would be appreciated.
Wesley Robinson
RV-6A N223WR
73 hrs.
Chevy Powered
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Attach Angles |
Grind down the nose of the tool.
Barry Pote RV9a wings
> how to fit a regular pop rivet tool beside the angle to pull the pop
> rivets.
> Did any of you use a different method of pulling the rivets.
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Attach Angles |
There is a good picture of what the pop rivet puller should look like. See
Figure 7-30 in the Wing documentation. It works well, does not compromise
the integrity of the tool - and is useful for several other close
situations. Don't be afraid of ruining the tool, you can cut a lot of as
shown. The metal will be quite hard but it is the best way to go.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235 Planning Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
----- Original Message -----
From: "barry pote" <barrypote(at)home.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Tank Attach Angles
>
> Grind down the nose of the tool.
>
> Barry Pote RV9a wings
>
> > how to fit a regular pop rivet tool beside the angle to pull the pop
> > rivets.
> > Did any of you use a different method of pulling the rivets.
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Tank Attach Angles |
I had a cheap pop rivet tool like you see in a kit at hardware stores. I
groung that one down and saved my expensive adjustable angle pop rivet tool.
It worked just fine and actually pulls rivets easier than the more expensive
one.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | Tank Attach Angles |
I did exactly what Larry did - ground down the nose of a $12 cheapy and
saved the good one. One note of caution though, the cheap ones sometimes
have some plastic parts in the nose between the grippers and the spring.
Grinding causes heat - plastic melts in heat - oops! They still work OK, but
the grippers don't release the pin like they should anymore ;)
Todd Houg
RV9A - ailerons (when I'm bored of working on the fuel tanks!)
-----Original Message-----
From: PERRYMAN Larry [mailto:Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Tank Attach Angles
I had a cheap pop rivet tool like you see in a kit at hardware stores. I
groung that one down and saved my expensive adjustable angle pop rivet tool.
It worked just fine and actually pulls rivets easier than the more expensive
one.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com |
In April of 1999 KITPLANES had an article titled "Minimizing Post-crash
Fires". It said in the article that a Vans rep. was at the meeting. I was
curious if any of you have ever read if Vans came to a conclusion on which
brand of foam or which of the three or four companiew provided the best "fit"
for the unique tank design of the RV series. I will soon be building my
tanks and plan on adding something to it to as the article says, minimize
post-crash fires. Thanks for your comments.
Doug Lomheim
OK City, OK
Wing spars platenut party
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
I received my Tail kit from Vans today . I don't see any specific "kit
number" or S/N associated with it. Do we have to send the registration
certificate back in ? It says to write in the Plans number ( S/N ? ? ) on
this certificate. Beats me......
Guy A. Votuc (Tail Inventory)
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: I did it!
>
> Andy,
> What is your kit # ?
> Just curious to know how many -9's have now been sold.
> Cliff
>
>
> >
> > Well, when I picked up mine (ordered Monday) there was another kit all
> > packed up stacked right next to it, so most likely that was it!
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
Guy,
Congratulations on your new adventure! You'll find this group and the list
archives invaluable in your forthcoming endeavor.
You should have a builder number on your invoices. This number is what Van's
uses to keep track of you and which kit your building. For an RV-9 it should
be something like 90XXX, with XXX being the consecutive number representing
the number of tailkits sold up to this point; and the '9' indicating the
model - RV-9. I purchased my tailkit last October and have builder number
90196, indicating that mine was the 196th RV-9 tailkit sold.
Happy Building,
Todd Houg
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Votuc [mailto:guy(at)votuc.com]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: I did it!
I received my Tail kit from Vans today . I don't see any specific "kit
number" or S/N associated with it. Do we have to send the registration
certificate back in ? It says to write in the Plans number ( S/N ? ? ) on
this certificate. Beats me......
Guy A. Votuc (Tail Inventory)
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: I did it!
>
> Andy,
> What is your kit # ?
> Just curious to know how many -9's have now been sold.
> Cliff
>
>
> >
> > Well, when I picked up mine (ordered Monday) there was another kit all
> > packed up stacked right next to it, so most likely that was it!
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim_Streit(at)FPL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: First RV-9A flies |
06/19/2001 02:40:13 PM
It was probably Kevin Shannon. He had recently sent me some pictures of
his completed and painted RV-9A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Tanner" <gtanner(at)bendcable.com> |
| Subject: | First RV-9A flies |
It wasn't Kevin though he's real close. When I was at Vans, Scott said there
was a 9A builder in Independence (I think) that was about ready to fly.
Might have been him.
Greg Tanner
RV-9A WINGS
O-320 D1A/CATTO
N80BR RESERVED
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald_P_Murray" <Ronald_P_Murray(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Wing leading edge ribs |
Hello Everyone:
This is my first time on the RV9 net, but have enjoyed the service since
the first of the year. Also, thanks to all of you who have web sites. I
have spent many hours learning from all of you.
I've completed the Empennage in 225 hours (I know I'm slow) and am just
starting the wings. I have a question for you wing experts. When
clecoing the fifth W-909 Wing Leading edge rib to the spar, I noticed
that it conflicts with the shop heads on the wing spar (top and bottom
of rib). Am I doing something wrong or should I notch the ribs to
accommodate this interference?
BTW, for you new people (like me), I learned that the #8 screws require
different Dimple Die Sets and drill sizes. Oh well, I just called my
friends at Avery and they will sent them right out. With my frequent
orders to them, I'm beginning to feel like I own half that company!
Having lots of fun at Lake Norman Airpark, near Charlotte, NC.
Ron Murray
RV-9A Wings
# 90291
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing leading edge ribs |
No experts here but in this case you remove enough of the rib flange to
clear the rivet head. Check your assy manual closely since I'm sure that
issue is covered.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on fuse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald_P_Murray" <Ronald_P_Murray(at)msn.com>
> starting the wings. I have a question for you wing experts. When
> clecoing the fifth W-909 Wing Leading edge rib to the spar, I noticed
> that it conflicts with the shop heads on the wing spar (top and bottom
> of rib). Am I doing something wrong or should I notch the ribs to
> accommodate this interference?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing leading edge ribs |
Albert is correct. There are 2 or 3 that you notch out for clearance of
the spar rivets. It is in the book.
Let me point out several things to avoid with the wings.
1. The 're-enforcing joint strip' between the tank and leading edge
should NOT over lap the spar. It leaves a bulge if you don't cut it
before it gets to the spar.
2. There are 2 rivets that attach the main ribs to spar flange at the
end where the tank is. I thought they both got riveted with the top
skin. Not the case. the one row is covered by the tank skin when the
tank is mounted, so has to be flush riveted before the tank goes on.
Guess who had to remove their tank one extra time?
3. Speaking of 'flush'. When I flush riveted the plate nuts for the
tanks (the ones in the spar flange) I said, "they look pretty good!"
Wrong. Pretty good is not OK. They must be flush or just slightly low to
mount the tank smoothly. A little shaving solved the problem, but caused
more time to be consumed.
Barry Pote RV9a Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The first mistake!......advice please. |
Steve:
People have used all sorts of things for bucking bars and don't be afraid
to grind down or otherwise alter existing bars to fit the purpose. Just
about any hard smooth metal will work-at least for a few rivets. That's a
tight fit but there are some more like it ahead of you. As for the ding
check the archives for some messages about using a metal spoon and slowly
rubbing the surface until it was lessened. I think the poster said may take
almost an hour depending on the size of the ding but I haven't tried it yet.
Hey-where in N Yorkshire-I lived in Harogate for a coupla of years.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on fuse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
> I am working on the emp. and started trying to work out how I will ever
> get a bucking bar behind the front rivets on the nose ribs of the HS.
> Its very narrow down there. To cut the story short having been in and
> out many timeswith different bars in different orientations I dropped
> the %*&?@! bar! I have a tiny ding fourtunately on what will be the
> lower surface about 3 or 4" back from the leading edge. Since I dropped
> it inside it is of course a convex ding viewed from the outside.
> QUESTION: What is the best way to reduce convex dings. (Concave I could
> just use some filler.) Shit!
> Steve Sampson
> N Yorkshire, England
> RV9 #90360
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: The first mistake!......advice please. |
In a message dated 6/23/01 11:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu writes:
>
> So I have just made my first cock up. I guess it happens to all sooner
> or later but right now I am wondering if it will ever fly!!! (I guess
> many have been there.)
>
> I am working on the emp. and started trying to work out how I will ever
> get a bucking bar behind the front rivets on the nose ribs of the HS.
> Its very narrow down there. To cut the story short having been in and
> out many timeswith different bars in different orientations I dropped
> the %*&?@! bar! I have a tiny ding fourtunately on what will be the
> lower surface about 3 or 4" back from the leading edge. Since I dropped
> it inside it is of course a convex ding viewed from the outside.
>
> QUESTION: What is the best way to reduce convex dings. (Concave I could
> just use some filler.) Shit!
>
> Steve Sampson
> N Yorkshire, England
> RV9 #90360
>
>
Hey Steve...I know all looks bad now but if and when you get to installing it
on your fuselage it won't be such a big thing
then.....tap the dent back in easily using a small hammer and a block of
wood, a little bondo goes a long way. Build On.
Tim Barnes
N39TB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
I saw It!!!! The first flying RV-9 out of Independence, Or. He has
about 6 hours and says it fly's great. I believe it was serial # 40.
Now that was inspiration.
Gene # 90296 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
Steve,
This is normal, the rivet will expand and fill the hole.
Cliff
RV9A, wings
Erie, CO
www.barefootpilot.com
>
> QUESTION If I drill with a #40 then dimple the hole seems to get larger
> - which makes sense since the metal has been stretched. The rivet is no
> longer such a tight fit. Is this Ok? Am I doing somthing wrong.
>
> Steve Sampson
> RV9 #90360
> N Yorks., England.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Burl Nelson" <AIRPILOT(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Are there any digital pictures of the Independence RV9A flying?
Burl # 90218 fuselage
Mississippi Gulf Coast
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9
>
> I saw It!!!! The first flying RV-9 out of Independence, Or. He has
> about 6 hours and says it fly's great. I believe it was serial # 40.
> Now that was inspiration.
>
> Gene # 90296 wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | RV9A at Rocky Mtn Regional |
Tom Green flew the demo -9 to Longmont, CO for the EAA Rocky Mountain
Regional fly-in this weekend.
It drew lots of attention as always. There was quite a large turnout,
particularly of RV's at this years event. My guess is about 40-50 RV's of
all flavors. Some really nice work.
I didn't get a demo ride because I've already flown in it, so I'll leave it
to others to make comments about their demo flight. However, when Derek
Streeter got his demo he asked Tom to do a short field takeoff. I was
watching from the taxiway and estimate it to be aproximately 800'. This is
at 5000' elevation and a temp of 90 degrees F. This yields a density
altitude of about 8100'.
Most impressive! I also noticed that Tom used about half the amount of
runway for landing than other RV's did.
Well, back to work with renewed enthusiasm.
Cliff
wings,
Erie, CO (3 minutes away from Longmont by RV)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
Steve, here is an excellent website that describes corrosion protection:
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/corridx.htm
I read somewhere that wash primers reduce corrosion rates by a factor of 5-10,
but they are not as good as sealing primers. They are lighter and cheaper, and
Van's uses them on the quickbuild kits. As wet as England is, I would suggest
using an Alodyne-like product followed by a sealing primer. I am using Sherwin
Williams wash primer and am not happy with it.
Leland
RV9 Vertical Stabilizer
Pleasanton, California
Steve Sampson wrote:
>
> I hardly dare type the above title having looked back through all the
> primer correspondence. Just one question!
>
> Many people use a wash primer on the inside bits (eg ribs spars inside
> of skins etc.) of their RV and then no more. What does this achieve.
> 1) I gather most wash primers are NOT impervious to water.
> 2) So do they still reduce corrosion.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
Hi Steve,
I did a little testing on my own before "putting metal at risk" and found
the "punched holes" were about equal to a #42 drill.
When I drilled both #42 and #40 test holes, they both became #36 holes when
dimpled in 0.025 inch material.
Based on that, I went ahead and drill everything to #40 with the idea that
drilling would not only help make the Cleco's fit easier, but perhaps
"align" the matching holes a little better. (I have not been able to verify
this latter point.)
Dave Nicholson
Danville, IL
#90347
Empennage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 3:08 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Rivetting
>
> Playing with rivets and scrap before getting serious. I am still on
> clecos for the real job.
>
> QUESTION If I drill with a #40 then dimple the hole seems to get larger
> - which makes sense since the metal has been stretched. The rivet is no
> longer such a tight fit. Is this Ok? Am I doing somthing wrong.
>
> Steve Sampson
> RV9 #90360
> N Yorks., England.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
> Based on that, I went ahead and drill everything to #40 with the idea that
> drilling would not only help make the Cleco's fit easier, but perhaps
> "align" the matching holes a little better. (I have not been able to verify
> this latter point.)
You should not be drilling all the pilot holes, then clecoing, then riveting!
The process is to cleco the matching parts together 'before' drilling (moving
the clecos as needed to drill all the holes). This way, the pair of holes are
drilled together (hence "matched holes") as a single assembly. If you drill
the holes independently in each piece, when you rivet them together you
will induce a small, but detrimental, jog in the rivet shanks, not to mention
a variety of surface imperfections and potentially weaker seams.
You should pick up a Standard Aircraft Handbook (ISBN 0-07-134836-0) or
equiv. Riveting is a well studied art, developed over many decades. The
hole sizes are likewise standardized to accomodate an expected degree
of expansion of the rivet as it is driven. Be advised that any inspector worth
his salt, will closely inspect and measure your rivets. Take drill size very
seriously.
If you are uncertain of the proper technique, you'ld be wise to do some
research or call upon an EAA tech. advisor or A&P before you get too far
along. It's always good to get to know your inspector sooner than later anyway.
Gary Newsted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
My apologies to the group if I gave the impression I was doing anything but
drilling the parts without being properly aligned first.
My intention was to address the difference between the Dimple Pilot Shaft
(0.090"), the Punched Hole (0.093"), the Drilled Hole (0.098"), and the
Dimpled Hole (0.106").
Dave Nicholson
90347
Empennage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Rivetting
>
> > Based on that, I went ahead and drill everything to #40 with the idea
that
> > drilling would not only help make the Cleco's fit easier, but perhaps
> > "align" the matching holes a little better. (I have not been able to
verify
> > this latter point.)
>
> You should not be drilling all the pilot holes, then clecoing, then
riveting!
>
> The process is to cleco the matching parts together 'before' drilling
(moving
> the clecos as needed to drill all the holes). This way, the pair of holes
are
> drilled together (hence "matched holes") as a single assembly. If you
drill
> the holes independently in each piece, when you rivet them together you
> will induce a small, but detrimental, jog in the rivet shanks, not to
mention
> a variety of surface imperfections and potentially weaker seams.
>
> You should pick up a Standard Aircraft Handbook (ISBN 0-07-134836-0) or
> equiv. Riveting is a well studied art, developed over many decades. The
> hole sizes are likewise standardized to accomodate an expected degree
> of expansion of the rivet as it is driven. Be advised that any inspector
worth
> his salt, will closely inspect and measure your rivets. Take drill size
very
> seriously.
> If you are uncertain of the proper technique, you'ld be wise to do some
> research or call upon an EAA tech. advisor or A&P before you get too far
> along. It's always good to get to know your inspector sooner than later
anyway.
>
> Gary Newsted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fuel Tank Rivets Too High? |
I was wondering if any of you all had tried the Cleaveland Tools RV fuel tank
dimple dies (as mentioned on Sam Buchanon's web site:
"http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/rv6.html"). They dimple the hole about
.003 inches deeper to allow for the Pro Seal depth and therefore keep the
rivet head down flush. My question for you who have already done your tanks
is: Do you notice your tank rivets standing up about .003 due to pro-seal?
Doug Lomheim
9A Wings (Rear Spar Doublers)
OK City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Drilling for 3/32 rivets |
Listers-
Just to mention that the latest rage in riveting (as discussed widely at
Van's tent at Sun-n-Fun) is to forego the match-drilling and proceed directly
to dimpling. The holes nowadays are aligned so well by Van's CNC machines
that thee's no need to match-drill. Just push the dimple die thru the hole,
dimple away, and rivet.
Another step eliminated from the process!
Ed Winne
RV-9A wings
Palmyra PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling for 3/32 rivets |
Sounds good in theory,,, but I'll stick to the age old process.
Anyone who has made it through about 10,000 rivets will know
that not all holes are where they belong. Have a good look, use
a magnifying glass if you have to, and compare a properly drilled
matched-hole against a shortcut method. Hey, you could always
use pop-rivets too! NOT...
----- Original Message -----
From: <Ewinne(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:27 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Drilling for 3/32 rivets
>
> Listers-
>
> Just to mention that the latest rage in riveting (as discussed widely at
> Van's tent at Sun-n-Fun) is to forego the match-drilling and proceed directly
> to dimpling. The holes nowadays are aligned so well by Van's CNC machines
> that thee's no need to match-drill. Just push the dimple die thru the hole,
> dimple away, and rivet.
>
> Another step eliminated from the process!
>
> Ed Winne
> RV-9A wings
> Palmyra PA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
I was working on my fuel tanks last night and finally discovered an "easy"
way to get the ribs in the tank. If you cleco the relatively flat side to
the skin while the skin is sitting in it's normally bent position and then
push the entire assembly into the cradles you made for the leading edge, the
holes on the curved side of the rib will align up with less force than
trying to push the ribs into the bent skin in the cradle.
Once you have all the ribs installed, it is then relatively easy to remove a
single rib and put it back by pushing it straight down into the bent skin.
I tried putting the skin in the cradle and then pushing the ribs in and was
able to do it with just 15 or 20 minutes of cussing them. A little WD-40 or
other lube helps when you are test fitting everything. You will wash it off
prior to Pro Seal so not a problem with contamination.
Anyone else found a better way to get the tanks (and leading edges)
together? I am open to suggestions.
Larry Perryman
N194DL reserved
Kit 90288
BTY I sent an e-mail to Vans and asked how many kits were out there and the
answer was 375 as of last week.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Rivets Too High? |
Yep, the row of rivets along the back panel stick up slightly. That little
amount will clean up during pre-painting prep. Still, its always nice to
have another tool! Maybe next time, when I get that new RV99. :
)
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: <DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:58 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Fuel Tank Rivets Too High?
>
> I was wondering if any of you all had tried the Cleaveland Tools RV fuel tank
> dimple dies (as mentioned on Sam Buchanon's web site:
> "http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/rv6.html"). They dimple the hole about
> .003 inches deeper to allow for the Pro Seal depth and therefore keep the
> rivet head down flush. My question for you who have already done your tanks
> is: Do you notice your tank rivets standing up about .003 due to pro-seal?
>
> Doug Lomheim
> 9A Wings (Rear Spar Doublers)
> OK City, OK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Rivets Too High? |
A number of builders have suggested using a countersink to remove a small
amount of material from a dimpled hole before riveting. This technique
works well for me but the emphasis is on removing a "small" amount. Any
misalignment of the holes will often keep rivets from being flush. I have
not used Cleveland dies but my dimpled tank rivets look a lot better than
the countersunk row along the tank baffle.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary & Sandi" <flying(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: RV9-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 06/25/01 |
Hi, Doug........Yes, I found it hard to get the rivets to set as flush
on the tanks as they do on the other skins. I think this is due in part
to the proseal, as you say, and partly due to the fact that it is hard
to get as deep a dimple on the thick .032 skins. The tank dies may be
a good idea, but I have not tried them myself.
Gary in Montana
finishing tanks
I was wondering if any of you all had tried the Cleaveland Tools RV
fuel tank
dimple dies (as mentioned on Sam Buchanon's web site:
"http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/rv6.html"). They dimple the
hole about
.003 inches deeper to allow for the Pro Seal depth and therefore keep
the
rivet head down flush. My question for you who have already done your
tanks
is: Do you notice your tank rivets standing up about .003 due to
pro-seal?
Doug Lomheim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: RV9-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 06/25/01 |
I have used them and they did the job.
Barry Pote RV6a Wings
>
> I was wondering if any of you all had tried the Cleaveland Tools RV
> fuel tank
> dimple dies (as mentioned on Sam Buchanon's web site:
> "http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/rv6.html"). They dimple the
> hole about
> .003 inches deeper to allow for the Pro Seal depth and therefore keep
> the
> rivet head down flush. My question for you who have already done your
> tanks
> is: Do you notice your tank rivets standing up about .003 due to
> pro-seal?
>
> Doug Lomheim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fr8dawg8(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling for 3/32 rivets |
It can be a little hard to push those dies thru the hole so try this. Get a
machinist to take a few thousanths off the pilot of the male die so it just
slips into the hole. When you dimple it opens the hole up so the rivet will
go in easily. Saves time clecoing together, drilling, and most importantly,
deburring all those thousands of holes.
Works very nicely on the skins but on heavier metal like ribs or spars you
might have to drill. You'll have to experiment a little to see what works
with your dies.
Kelly Wilson building #90177 N64KW reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Derek Streeter <streeter(at)rv9a.sketchy.net> |
| Subject: | registration database tool |
It didn't take long to tire from repeatedly sending queries to FAA's
aircraft registration query page. I cooked up http://sketchy.net/reg.pl
which polls the FAA database in an automated fashion, using wildcards which
are expanded to all digits, characters, or both.
It sends each query on to the FAA website, so it may time out if the FAA
site is down, as it has been lately.
Just spent Sunday at EAA Fly-In at Longmont. Pleased to meet a new -7 and
a new -9 builder in the area, and a two others contemplating the -7 vs the
-9. In addition to Cliff's takeoff distance estimation, I saw just over
1000ft/min sustained on the VSI. Density altitude at nine grand near the
pattern, maybe 10 gallons shy of full fuel, Tom and me.
-Derek
RV-9A #222 Emp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Panel swap anyone? |
Anyone out there interested in swapping their blank RV9 inst panel
for my factory pre-cut one? I'd be happy to crate it up and foot
the bill for two-way shipping. Drop me an email direct if you're
interested.
Gary Newsted, fcs(at)jlc.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary & Sandi" <flying(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Tip-up vs Slider |
I am doing the "Tip-up vs Slider" canopy debate. I'd like to know how
many builders have chosen each type, and why. Do the tip-ups offer
enough ventilation while taxiing? Are they hard to seal? Strong enough
when open in windy conditions? What do you guys think?
Gary Crowder
Belt, Montana
#90263 on the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: registration database tool |
Derek, That is siimply sweet! I started looking for a number last week and
quickly tired of the process as it seemed that every number was taken.
Thanks so much,
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Tail
Seattle, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Streeter" <streeter(at)rv9a.sketchy.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:53 AM
Subject: RV9-List: registration database tool
>
> It didn't take long to tire from repeatedly sending queries to FAA's
> aircraft registration query page. I cooked up http://sketchy.net/reg.pl
> which polls the FAA database in an automated fashion, using wildcards
which
> are expanded to all digits, characters, or both.
>
> It sends each query on to the FAA website, so it may time out if the FAA
> site is down, as it has been lately.
>
> Just spent Sunday at EAA Fly-In at Longmont. Pleased to meet a new -7 and
> a new -9 builder in the area, and a two others contemplating the -7 vs the
> -9. In addition to Cliff's takeoff distance estimation, I saw just over
> 1000ft/min sustained on the VSI. Density altitude at nine grand near the
> pattern, maybe 10 gallons shy of full fuel, Tom and me.
>
> -Derek
> RV-9A #222 Emp
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Schlosser" <kevinschlosser(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
Yep, I know about that debate along with the TriGear vs. TailWheel debate. Here's what I found to be good... www.vansaircraft.net and I think it's there in the articles section. There are a few good articles on canopy type pros & cons.
After reading that 12 times, go fly in each.
I haven't flown in one yet. After watching the Terry Jantzi video in the
video section and ordering the preview plans to see both types in construction
plans I'm going to do a tip-up. I had decided to do a slider, and
then I saw all the info available from a photographer at the Cougar Landing fly
in of Van's prototype 7. Tip up looks like my choice.
They are ALL great, no matter which you build.
I'm getting my tail kit for my Birthday in April - Woo Hoo!
Kevin
-< PropellerHead >-
I am doing the "Tip-up vs Slider" canopy debate. I'd like to know how
many builders have chosen each type, and why. Do the tip-ups offer
enough ventilation while taxiing? Are they hard to seal? Strong enough
when open in windy conditions? What do you guys think?
Gary Crowder
Belt, Montana
#90263 on the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Tip-up vs Slider |
Hi Gary;
I have chosen the slider, the biggest decision factor being loading of
the
cargo space. The slider normally only slides as far back as where the roll
bar is on the tip-up, but with a simple modification you can remove it
completely in less than a minute. I would like to be able to carry 2
mountain bikes in the cargo space (remove wheels, lower seat, etc...), but
can't see how you could get the bike frame into the cargo space with the
roll bar & rear window in the way.
Another consideration is that I plan to fly into remote mountainous strips.
where it can be quite windy. I can just envision the tip up canopy catching
a gust of wind while open and snapping off forward or slamming shut. In a
remote area with no other way out, a broken canopy wouldn't be good, as it
just wouldn't be possible to fly without a windscreen. While Van doesn't
recommend flight without the slider closed, I think in an pinch it would be
OK, along with the fact that the slider is less likely to break in this
fashion.
If these 2 factors weren't present, I would have chosen a tip-up, for the
superior view, and access behind the panel.
Todd Bartrim
13B RV-9
Fuselage (supposed to arrive today !!!!!)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary & Sandi
> Sent: June 28, 2001 7:20 AM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: Tip-up vs Slider
>
>
> I am doing the "Tip-up vs Slider" canopy debate. I'd like to know how
> many builders have chosen each type, and why. Do the tip-ups offer
> enough ventilation while taxiing? Are they hard to seal? Strong enough
> when open in windy conditions? What do you guys think?
>
> Gary Crowder
> Belt, Montana
> #90263 on the wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
I guess when I get around to ordering an RV-7, it will be with a sliding
canopy. A friend recently flipped his RV 6 due to a brake lockup on takeoff.
He ended upside down in tall grass and was unable to get out by himself. I
think I like the thought that I might be able to slide it back. I know it
couldn't be opened if it was the hinged variety. Not sure what the scenario
might be, just hope it doesn't happen to me.
Pat Long RV-7 Wannabe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
I'm going with a slider. I think that the roll over structure on this canopy
will give passengers more room between their heads and the ground in case the
plane goes on its back. To see what I mean, draw a line from the top of the
VS to the roll over structure on both types of canopies. The line (ground)
cuts through the cabin on the tip up, not on the slider.
Tom Seevers
#90366
empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
I chose tip up because someone said it was easier (a big factor in my
building). I also figure if I take off with the tip up not latched it will
just be noisy but a slider could be seriously damaged.
Dennis Thomas
RV9 Emp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
Builders:
I would like to order the plexiglass stuff even though I don't have the
finish kit yet. I plan to get plexy drills (with the 60 degree point).
What sizes do I need from 1/8", 5/32", 3/16" and 1/4"? Also, is the Avery
Plexiglass Edge Scraper any good? Is there anything else? Does anything
have any chance of reducing my frustration level with the canopy? I haven't
seen special canopy tools discussed. I still have problems riveting -
always bearing down too much (typical control freak!!). Thanks.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235, Planning Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
The issue for me is cargo though not Mtn Bikes. QUESTION: Is it
difficult to get ordinary softbags in and out of the cargo area with the
tip up? I would much prefer it for the view. (Since it must have a
nosewheeel I dont figure putting it on the ground upsidedown in the
equation - though anything is possible!)
Steve Sampson
Yorkshire - England
RV9 #90360
Dimpling the HS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Tip-up vs Slider
>
> Hi Gary;
> I have chosen the slider, the biggest decision factor being
loading of the
> cargo space. The slider normally only slides as far back as where the
roll
> bar is on the tip-up, but with a simple modification you can remove it
> completely in less than a minute. I would like to be able to carry 2
> mountain bikes in the cargo space (remove wheels, lower seat, etc...),
but
> can't see how you could get the bike frame into the cargo space with
the
> roll bar & rear window in the way.
> Another consideration is that I plan to fly into remote
mountainous strips.
> where it can be quite windy. I can just envision the tip up canopy
catching
> a gust of wind while open and snapping off forward or slamming shut.
In a
> remote area with no other way out, a broken canopy wouldn't be good,
as it
> just wouldn't be possible to fly without a windscreen. While Van
doesn't
> recommend flight without the slider closed, I think in an pinch it
would be
> OK, along with the fact that the slider is less likely to break in
this
> fashion.
> If these 2 factors weren't present, I would have chosen a
tip-up, for the
> superior view, and access behind the panel.
> Todd Bartrim
> 13B RV-9
> Fuselage (supposed to arrive today !!!!!)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary &
Sandi
> > Sent: June 28, 2001 7:20 AM
> > To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RV9-List: Tip-up vs Slider
> >
> >
> >
> > I am doing the "Tip-up vs Slider" canopy debate. I'd like to know
how
> > many builders have chosen each type, and why. Do the tip-ups offer
> > enough ventilation while taxiing? Are they hard to seal? Strong
enough
> > when open in windy conditions? What do you guys think?
> >
> > Gary Crowder
> > Belt, Montana
> > #90263 on the wings
> >
> >
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up vs Slider |
>I would much prefer it for the view. (Since it must have a
This is the interesting thing. I always hear "for the view" as part of the
tip up equation. When I flew in the factory 9a slider 2 weeks ago, I was not
hurting for "the view" that's for sure. It was fantastic. (I have also flown
in a 6 tip up years ago) and it was great also.
But the day we flew it was a bout 70 in Western Oregon and with the sun out,
it was perfect to simply unlock and slide back the canopy once we were
rolling on the ground. Makes that little band in the view worth it all for
me.
I think entry and exit are safer also without having to worry about the lid
comming down on ya.
Lots of options that's for sure.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Tail
Seattle WA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Gopstein <rich(at)ourowndomain.com> |
I am seriously considering building a 9A. My wife thinks I'm crazy,
though... Are there any builders in the central NJ area? I would like to
see what's really involved. Thanks in advance.
Rich
Dreaming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Jaques" <bjaques(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 07/02/01 |
I am one of those crazy builders. My wife feels the same way... It is a
big job and will take
most of your time for a couple three years... The 9A is very refined kit
and a lot of time saving improvements have been built into this kit.. But
don't let anyone tell you that it is easy!!!! Building an airplane is a
labor of love and it will test your patience. You will find no shortage of
help out there in the RV world. I have found that most RV builders will
bend over backwards to help you with any problem you will encounter. In my
own experience I have found that when I put out the call I have people in my
shop the same or very next day helping me out... I get immense pleasure out
of this project and a real sense of accomplishment as each part is
finished..
Bill Jaqeus RV9a working on wings, just completed fuel
tanks...
Good luck...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Builder in NJ? |
| From: | Rich Corbett-MacJ <richcorbett(at)mac.com> |
Dreaming Rich,
Well Rich, I can tell you from this past Sunday that I've experienced the RV
Welcome wagon (thanks to Tom Reed) in Mason, Ohio. I am on the fence with
both 'building' and 'plane selection' but after actually seeing how the RV
parts are prepared I'm convinced the RV is first rate as a kit. Experience
kit preparation is obviously something the RV folks are near perfecting.
(important for us amateurs) Unfortunately seeing Tom's 'expert' workmanship
is intimidating!
Of course most of us would like to touch and feel, if not fly a 9A, before
we make such a commitment ... but things are looking up when I read the
confidence building report of Kevin Shannon (N994KS) and others that are
'refining' the builder notes on the 9A ahead of us. The way I'm beginning to
look at it is that the initial cost of building a component at a time is
like paying for education, and it looks like it could be personally
satisfying. Believe you me, I've wasted far more money on a few choice
college courses in my past!
Good luck,
Rich Corbett
"fence-sitter, but leaning"
PS. Keep posting progress guys ... quirks and fixes too!
> Subject: RV9-List: Builder in NJ?
>
>
> I am seriously considering building a 9A. My wife thinks I'm crazy,
> though... Are there any builders in the central NJ area? I would like to
> see what's really involved. Thanks in advance.
>
> Rich
> Dreaming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
Greetings!
Well, for all you RV9A builders out there. Here's some more pictures of
Kevin's recently completed plane. He did a great job that's for sure.
Album: Kevin Shannon's RV9A Online Photo Album
http://members6.clubphoto.com/andy399704/Kevin_Shannons_RV9A/
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Tail
Seattle, WA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Unknown <oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9A pictures |
Very Nice, how about some info. Engine Prop combination/performance???
Weight, what's in the pannel?
Andy Karmy writes:
>
> Greetings!
>
> Well, for all you RV9A builders out there. Here's some more pictures of
> Kevin's recently completed plane. He did a great job that's for sure.
>
> Album: Kevin Shannon's RV9A Online Photo Album
> http://members6.clubphoto.com/andy399704/Kevin_Shannons_RV9A/
>
> - Andy Karmy
> RV9A - Tail
> Seattle, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Builder in NJ? |
Hi Rich,
I live in Delran South Jersey. That is in the Moorestown/Cherry Hill area. I
ordered my RV-9 last year at Oshkosh and started work in September. I have
almost completed the empennage and already have the wing kit. I am rather
space limited, and lately time limited as well. Overall while changeling the
kit is well organized. The one area I would emphasize is to have good quality
tools and not just make-do.
Regards,
Joel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Gopstein <rich(at)ourowndomain.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Builder in NJ? |
Thanks for everybody's help. It sounds like that are at least three RV-9's in
this area. This will help a lot with the decision of whether to build one or not.
Rich
Joelmede(at)cs.com wrote:
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> I live in Delran South Jersey. That is in the Moorestown/Cherry Hill area. I
> ordered my RV-9 last year at Oshkosh and started work in September. I have
> almost completed the empennage and already have the wing kit. I am rather
> space limited, and lately time limited as well. Overall while changeling the
> kit is well organized. The one area I would emphasize is to have good quality
> tools and not just make-do.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joel
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Moffitt" <compass(at)ont.com> |
| Subject: | Builder near Dallas, TX? |
Hi all,
I'm new to the list; thinking about building one. Before I take a trip to
Van's for a demo ride, it would be nice to take a look at someone's kit
first. Is there anyone near Mesquite, TX that would be kind enough to let
me interrupt their building session?
Thanks,
Bill Moffitt
P.S. How does one go about posting to this group so that the reply address
and the matronics signature lines are inserted?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Builder near Dallas, TX? |
Greetings from El Paso
We have been building my 9a since last year and so far no major problems. I
realize mesquite is a bit of a drive you are most welcome to come by our
shop and see how we are doing. I am building a 9 and my helper (started
out as my helper) is now building his own 7A. on the 9A we have completed
the empennage and almost completed with all wing components.. My friend is
well on the way with his empennage. He has ordered the quick build so we
are waiting for wings and fuselage, due in October. You might check with
George Orndorff in Fort Worth to see if any 9A are being built in the Fort
Worth area. We attended is pre assembly class before we started and found
it a great help. George has also been very accommodating with questions
during our construction
Good Luck
Marcel in El Paso
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Moffitt" <compass(at)ont.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Builder near Dallas, TX?
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the list; thinking about building one. Before I take a trip
to
> Van's for a demo ride, it would be nice to take a look at someone's kit
> first. Is there anyone near Mesquite, TX that would be kind enough to
let
> me interrupt their building session?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Moffitt
>
>
> P.S. How does one go about posting to this group so that the reply
address
> and the matronics signature lines are inserted?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Emp. riveting - help please |
In a message dated 7/8/01 3:41:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu writes:
<<
Reply-to: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
I would not mind a bit of advice on riveting the emp. together.
I am having a real problem setting the 1/8" rivets that go through the
spar / doubler / shims / ribs on the HS. These are the first 1/8" rivets
I have put the gun on rather than the squeezer and it is having little >>
I had the same problem. The 2X gun does not have the power required.
I bought a 4X gun which made all the diference.
Good Luck
Joel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Builder near Dallas, TX? |
Check out the WWW links on the VANS site and go to the "White Pages"
listing. There is a guy that has set up an assistance center in Ft. Worth
Meecham area. Also contact the Dallas EAA chapter. There are a BUNCH of RV
builders in that chapter. They meet in North Dallas once a month. You can
find them through the EAA web site.
Good Luck and welcome to the group.
Larry Perryman
N194DL Reserved
Working on second wing. Fuselage ordered.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Moffitt [mailto:compass(at)ont.com]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Builder near Dallas, TX?
Hi all,
I'm new to the list; thinking about building one. Before I take a trip to
Van's for a demo ride, it would be nice to take a look at someone's kit
first. Is there anyone near Mesquite, TX that would be kind enough to let
me interrupt their building session?
Thanks,
Bill Moffitt
P.S. How does one go about posting to this group so that the reply address
and the matronics signature lines are inserted?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Re: Builder near Dallas |
Jay Pratt in Fort Worth builds. His phone numbers are:
817-244-0624=home, 817-271-0594=cell, 817-349-1220=hanger. His shop rate
is $29/hour. Enjoy your project. I certainly am.
Leland in Pleasanton, California
RV9A
Elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Whitaker <rmwhitaker(at)lanl.gov> |
| Subject: | Oil Canning Wing Skins |
Gang,
I've been going through an interesting (read frustrating) exercise
with regard my W-903 outboard top skin having a tendency to oil can.
I absolutely do not want oil canning on those beautiful RV-9 wings for
me and all the world to see. I thought that I'd pass on the remedy that
I discovered with the hope that others will avoid the head ache that I had.
With the wing skeleton mounted in the wing stand all straight and level,
I mounted the top skins with clecos. I discovered that I had "oil
cans" in the three inboard bays (area between the ribs) of the W-903
outboard skin adjacent to the W-902/903 overlap. Bummer! I tried
several different cleco mounting schemes. I started in the middle of
the skin. I started at the end of the skin, etc. etc. The oil cans persisted.
DRATS!! I discovered that with pre punched ribs and skins, there is no
working wrinkles, oil cans or what ever. The skin goes on the same
regardless.
I tried several other things that actually helped remove the oil canning,
but they were "band aid" fixes. I'll minimize my rambling and cut to the
chase.
While holding the W-903 after removing it for the nth time I realized
that the skin had a "curvature set" in it. In its unstressed state, it could
set it on edge on the floor and it could stand on its own because of its
tendency to curve. I surmise that I got skins that came off of a roll near
the center of the coil. The W903 is .025", so it is pretty flaccid. I counter
rolled the skin to remove the set curvature. Viola! that was a trick. Because
the inboard edge of the W-903 is "clamped", due to the double row of rivet
holes where the W-902/903 join, the curvature set in the skin induced a
convex "oil can" in the first bay. Because the ribs "periodically' constrain
the skin, or act as "nodes" if you will, the adjacent outboard bay had a
concave
oil can effect. It was kind of a sinusoidal effect that was reduced with each
successive bay. There was no oil can tendency toward the wing tip. Once I
removed the pre set curvature from the skin, the oil canning tendency went
away.
The top of the RV-9 wing between the main and rear spars is relatively
flat. If
there was any camber in the area of the wing, then I don't believe that oil
canning would have been and issue. (I'm not lobbying for a new wing)
Anyway, the bottom line is to remove any curvature set to the skins by counter
rolling. (Sorry for being so long winded)
Rob
RV-9 wings in NM
BTW. I had a chance to fly the RV-9 demonstrator at the Rocky Mountain Fly-In
a few weeks back. This is a solid, predictable airplane. The climb rate
with two on
board and full fuel was a solid 1200 fpm. This was flying from a 5000 ft
elevation field
at temperatures of 85 to 90 degF. We (Tom Green and me) did steep turns,
slow flight and stall. It was easy to hold the plane on the ragged edge of
stall during
slow flight. Plenty of control authority. I thought there was plenty of
warning to the
stall break. Stalls, like all RVs, were simple. No forward stick required
for recovery. I
rolled the plane from 60 deg left turns to 60 deg right turns. I thought
the roll rate was
very quick. Certainly much quicker than GA planes I've flown. Everything
about the
control of this plane was crisp. I was concerned about the roll rate of the
-9 vis-a-vis
the -6 that I flew a few years back. I don't think the -9 is giving up that
much in roll
rate to its shorter winged siblings. Trimmed speeds were very steady, even in
the light turbulence we were flying in. During the demo flight, Tom thought
I was
babying the plane too much. He took over and flew the plane quite
aggressively. No
funny quirks. He performed a stall and held the stick back. A good spin
entry maneuver.
The aileron control authority was pretty good in the sustained stall. When
he performed
side to side rolls, they happened like right now. This plane is very
responsive, but not
twitchy. I know what the cruise numbers are, but I wanted to explore the
slower end of
the flight envelope. At 65 to 100 mph, the plane plenty of control
authority, which is in
stark contrast to the mooney I used to fly. The pattern was a piece of
cake. The -9
doesn't sink very fast. It is comparable to the glide rate of a mooney. I'm
jazzed over
this plane! (Now I'm really long winded).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R Colman" <ronincolman(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Builder near Dallas, TX? |
For really great builder assistance give Jay Pratt a call at 817-271-0594
(cell). He has a hanger at Hicks (north of FTW) with 4 RV-6's in various
states and 2 RV-8's including mine which just flew. Jay has himself built 5
or 6 RV's. Highly recommended.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PERRYMAN Larry
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:17 AM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Builder near Dallas, TX?
Check out the WWW links on the VANS site and go to the "White Pages"
listing. There is a guy that has set up an assistance center in Ft. Worth
Meecham area. Also contact the Dallas EAA chapter. There are a BUNCH of RV
builders in that chapter. They meet in North Dallas once a month. You can
find them through the EAA web site.
Good Luck and welcome to the group.
Larry Perryman
N194DL Reserved
Working on second wing. Fuselage ordered.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Moffitt [mailto:compass(at)ont.com]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Builder near Dallas, TX?
Hi all,
I'm new to the list; thinking about building one. Before I take a trip to
Van's for a demo ride, it would be nice to take a look at someone's kit
first. Is there anyone near Mesquite, TX that would be kind enough to let
me interrupt their building session?
Thanks,
Bill Moffitt
P.S. How does one go about posting to this group so that the reply address
and the matronics signature lines are inserted?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | What % of the whole aircraft is the HS? |
Hi Steve,
I just reviewed a early copy of my building log and I was at 41 hours and
just had the frame of the HS riveted together. I was at a little over 100 -
150 hours when I finished the entire empanage kit. You will find that things
will come easier as you build more. Don't get discouraged. I am now at about
350 hours and have one wing finished and the other about half done. I would
expect the entire project to take about 1000 - 1200 hours. I am planning on
flying my 9 to Sun-N-Fun next year after about one year of building time.
I was talking to a friend who is building a Harmon Rocket variant of a Rv-4
and he has been building about 3 years with no end in site. I have almost
caught up with him and I started on Jan 11 of this year. I have the fuselage
on order for a September delivery. Just hope I can make the other wing last
that long.
I remember how loooooong it took to get the first piece together but then it
seemed like the rest almost jumped together. Keep plugging along.
Regards
Larry Perryman
90288
N194DL Reserved
Conroe Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Finishing bare ally. |
I have just completed the HS. I am quite pleased with it for the first
part I have fabricated. Its OK - not perfect. The VANS manual says:
"Congratulations! You have finished the first major sub-assy of your new
airplane."
But in fact it is far from finished. I think it would benefit from:
1) A couple of rivets being shaved.
2) Application of a small amount of filler
and of course
3) Priming & painting.
I have found very little info on these steps particularly 1 & 2. I have
all sorts of questions about techniques, products and what is possible.
Q Can someone point me towards a good source of info. omn these
important steps in building an RV - article or book? Surely I am not the
only one not to do a PERFECT job.
Thanks, Steve.
RV9 #90360
Yorkshire, England.
Contemplating the VS
________________________________________________________________________________
I am now almost half way into the fuselage. Got the rear and center section
built, and the forward section and firewall clecoed on. The instructions up
to this point have been very good and easy to follow.
At the point of joining the sections and side skins, the instructions
suddenly get very muddy. I can see that if this isn't assembled in the
proper
order, you could wind up drilling out MANY rivets.
Anyone else have trouble with this part of the fuselage? Any advice?
Thanks,
Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LUISFEMATT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Finishing bare ally. |
Steve,
No. definitely you are not the only one with dings in the HS skin, However I
been looking at the listers conversations and there has been mention to a
couple different fillers, a think the request was from a guy that dropped a
bucking bar inside and did a boo-boo, look it up.
Just about to finish the HS.
Luis Fematt
RV90304
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Jig Details |
I finally got the Empennage done and started setting up for the Left Wing
this weekend.
DWG 15 shows the modifications to the "H" Beam for the wing construction.
View A-A shows clearly how the Inboard end of the Upper Spar is clamped to
an "angle shelf", but I am a little confused on how to suport the Outboard
end of the Upper Spar.
It appears the outermost ribs (W-909-R & W-912-R) are flush with the outer
end of the spar, so how can I support this spar and not get in the way of
mounting the ribs?
Dave Nicholson
Danville, IL
90347
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Oliveira <Oliveira(at)eznet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Jig Details |
I used a piece of angel aluminum available at the hardware store, and blind
riveted to the outboard main wing rib. Then clamped that to the support.
Simple, worked well. Almost done with right wing.
John Oliveira
Dave Nicholson wrote:
>
> I finally got the Empennage done and started setting up for the Left Wing
> this weekend.
>
> DWG 15 shows the modifications to the "H" Beam for the wing construction.
> View A-A shows clearly how the Inboard end of the Upper Spar is clamped to
> an "angle shelf", but I am a little confused on how to suport the Outboard
> end of the Upper Spar.
>
> It appears the outermost ribs (W-909-R & W-912-R) are flush with the outer
> end of the spar, so how can I support this spar and not get in the way of
> mounting the ribs?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> 90347
> Wings
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Jig Details |
What I did was use a piece of 1.5 x 1.5 angle that I purchased at the local
hardware store. I mounted this level to the uprights and it extends out
about a foot. I put an angle brace to the upright to stabilize it. I then
cut two pieced of the angle about 1 - 2 inches long and rounded one edge to
match the radius of the c channel of the spar since it faces the rear of the
wing. I then riveted the two pieces of angle to the horizontal angle so it
would hold the spar stationary. The end of the horizontal angle must be
inside of the skin line since I placed the support between the last two ribs
of the wing. Once I had the whole thing together, I purchased some felt pads
with adhesive backs at the hardware store (Home Depot) and put them on top
of the two angle extensions. This lifted the spar off the support and added
some protection.
On the other end I did much the same way but since the spar would sit
directly on the horizontal support, I put two more felt pads on this end. I
was able to drill a 1/4 inch hole to match the 1/4 inch hole in the spar. I
use a 1/4 inch bolt from the hardware store to keep the spar from moving.
this stabilizes the entire spar since the outboard end is held by the two
support brackets that I made.
This has worked out well for me so far. The first wing had 1/32 inch twist
in it when finished.
I also made two other brackets to hold the trailing edge spar in position
until the top skins are on. They were simple pieces of 3/4 inch angle about
6 inches long with a 3-4 inch piece riveted on to form a "T". I drilled a
couple of holes in the T crossbar and clecoed them to the trailing edge
spar. I was then able to secure them to the uprights with screws to hold the
entire wing skeleton in place and adjust any twist out of the wing. They
also made the assembly much more rigid when it came to riveting the skins
on.
Hope this will help. If you have any questions, please send me a response
and I will be glad to help if I can.
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL Reserved
Second wing, fuselage ordered.
-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <Larry.PERRYMAN(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | RE: RV9-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/13/01 |
I have the standard kit. I have a shop in my back yard so I work on it most
evenings and then at least one good day on the weekend. Call it about 20
hours per week. It helps to not have kids and being married 28 years. The
demands on your time are less like way.
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL Reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: John Jessen [mailto:jjessen(at)CMBINFO.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:03 AM
Subject: RV9-List: RE: RV9-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/13/01
Larry, do you have the QB or regular, and approx. how much time per day or
weekend to you put in?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Jig Details |
Dave... go to page 7-3 in the instructions, the third paragraph (wing
stand)describes how to attach a temporary piece of aluminum angle to support
the outboard end of the wing. Also as a sugestion for supporting the wing I
went to the hardware store and bought two 3/16" eye bolts. I found a hole
near the middle of the main spar attached the eyebolt and used a strong
bungee cord to a hook in the ceiling. I didn't like the idea of useing a
jack under the aft spar as the assembly is faily flimsly untill the skins
are on.
Gene Park #90296 wings allmost done
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Wing Jig Details
>
> I finally got the Empennage done and started setting up for the Left Wing
> this weekend.
>
> DWG 15 shows the modifications to the "H" Beam for the wing construction.
> View A-A shows clearly how the Inboard end of the Upper Spar is clamped to
> an "angle shelf", but I am a little confused on how to suport the Outboard
> end of the Upper Spar.
>
> It appears the outermost ribs (W-909-R & W-912-R) are flush with the outer
> end of the spar, so how can I support this spar and not get in the way of
> mounting the ribs?
>
> Dave Nicholson
> Danville, IL
> 90347
> Wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Finishing bare ally. |
I have used Poly Fiber's Featherfill and like it a lot. Light weight, strong
and easy to sand.
Dennis Thomas
RV-9
Emp
________________________________________________________________________________
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU
| From: | Richard Lee Frost <rlf(at)email.byu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9 Fuselage |
Dale,
I had similar difficulties interpreting the instructions. In the end I mostly
just muddled through. The forward fuse needs to have the side skins clecoed in
place do maintain the accuracy of the longerons and firewalls, but has to be
riveted LAST. As I recall fit the upper and lower longerons to the firewall,
then installed the bottom skin and floor stiffeners, then removed the side skins
and finished installing the auxiliary longerons and side stiffeners. (You will
need an angle drill to get into tight places.) Lastly I installed the side skin
doubler and riveted the side skins in place. Oh yes, I seem to recall also
finding it necessary to prop the firewall a bit to keep the right relationships
with the longerons etc. when the side skins were off. Anyway, we rolled the
canoe over a couple of days ago and everything seems to be OK.
If you have detailed questions, you can also reach me at (801) 378-3930 in the
evenings.
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | RV-9A trim tab question |
On the 9A trim tab, should you bend the trailing edge first and then bend
the tabs on each end, or is it easier to bend the end tabs first and the
trailing edge last?
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-9A trim tab question |
Greetings from El Paso
When I did my trim tab I bent the tabs and then bent the trailing edge. It
seemed to work great.
Marcel finishing up wing flaps
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:15 AM
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9A trim tab question
>
> On the 9A trim tab, should you bend the trailing edge first and then bend
> the tabs on each end, or is it easier to bend the end tabs first and the
> trailing edge last?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Schrimmer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-9A trim tab question |
Mark I bent the edges first and then bent the trailing edge last. I made
a small break out of two 2" x 6" just a little bit longer then the trim tab,
attached a piano hinge to one side and squeezed the T/E down. There is an
alternate method check out Tod Hoags website:
www.geocities.com/mn_pilot/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:15 AM
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9A trim tab question
>
> On the 9A trim tab, should you bend the trailing edge first and then bend
> the tabs on each end, or is it easier to bend the end tabs first and the
> trailing edge last?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Schrimmer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Cartwright" <ccart(at)stanford.edu> |
| Subject: | RV-9 compared to a Citabria |
From: Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9A trim tab question
On the 9A trim tab, should you bend the trailing edge first and then bend
the tabs on each end, or is it easier to bend the end tabs first and the
trailing edge last?
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
____
From: "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: RV-9A trim tab question
Greetings from El Paso
When I did my trim tab I bent the tabs and then bent the trailing edge. It
seemed to work great.
Marcel finishing up wing flaps
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:15 AM
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9A trim tab question
>
> On the 9A trim tab, should you bend the trailing edge first and then bend
> the tabs on each end, or is it easier to bend the end tabs first and the
> trailing edge last?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Schrimmer
>
>
Is there anyone on the list that has time both in a Citabria and an RV-9?
I would appreciate your comments about control forces/response rates and
general "feel".
Thanks,
Chris Cartwright
Menlo Park, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Flaps and Ailerons |
Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
stiffners.
Gene 90296 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Gene, not sure what you mean. 'weights and flat tables etc' are involved
,too.
Barry Pote RV9a fuselage
SNIP rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Gene, you riveted your ailerons in a cradle?
Kevin
-9A flying 39 hours
> Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> stiffners.
> Gene 90296 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bryan Wood <brywd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Gene,
The answer to your question is that the only way to have the flaps come out
flat, which is crucial to having no handling quirks is to build it flat on
the table that Van's suggests. I used 75 pounds of lead shot on a long 2x4
to distribute the weight evenly over the lenght of the flap. Mine came out
nice and yours can also, just take your time to make everything perfectly
flat and keep it that way. My ailerons however, well my left one anyway, I
get to redo because I put the final row of rivets on the back row in with
the aileron right side up instead of upside down and it set a hook into the
trailing edge. Good Luck and keep building.
Regards,
Bryan Wood
RV-9A wings finished, fuse on order
Gene wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> stiffners.
> Gene 90296 wings
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
on 7/20/01 8:00 AM, Gene at gene(at)nvaircraft.com wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> stiffners.
> Gene 90296 wings
>
>
Gene,
I riveted the nose skin and upper and lower main skins to the spar while the
flap was in the cradle. I also riveted the top skin to the ribs while the
flap was in the cradle. I then took the flap out of the jig and piled on the
weights to do the double-flush rivets on the trailing edge.
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Excuse me I refered to it as a cradle, the instructions call them saddles.
And yes that is how I riveted the top and bottom skin to the spar and
leading edge. I am very pleased as to how the ailerons came out. That is
why I am questioning the different method for the flaps when the only
apparent difference is ribs vs. stiffners
----- Original Message -----
From: <Im7shannon(at)aol.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Flaps and Ailerons
>
> Gene, you riveted your ailerons in a cradle?
> Kevin
> -9A flying 39 hours
> > Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> > flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> > The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> > stiffners.
> > Gene 90296 wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
I now have my flap laying top down on a very flat surface a 1 x 4 board is
laying on top of the ribs and the weight (50 lbs) is on top of that. In
order to get my arm in to buck the rivets the bottom skin seems like it has
to be bent open too much, is this the norm? The picture in the manual fig.
7-29, appears to show only a weight not a board??
Gene 90296 wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Wood" <brywd(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Flaps and Ailerons
>
> Gene,
> The answer to your question is that the only way to have the flaps come
out
> flat, which is crucial to having no handling quirks is to build it flat on
> the table that Van's suggests. I used 75 pounds of lead shot on a long
2x4
> to distribute the weight evenly over the lenght of the flap. Mine came
out
> nice and yours can also, just take your time to make everything perfectly
> flat and keep it that way. My ailerons however, well my left one anyway,
I
> get to redo because I put the final row of rivets on the back row in with
> the aileron right side up instead of upside down and it set a hook into
the
> trailing edge. Good Luck and keep building.
> Regards,
> Bryan Wood
> RV-9A wings finished, fuse on order
>
> Gene wrote:
>
> >
> > Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> > flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> > The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> > stiffners.
> > Gene 90296 wings
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Gene,
You'll want to use a flat table and wieghts as Van's suggests. Then your
control surfaces will come out nice and flat. They need to be flat and
straight.
What helped me was to make a long bucking bar out of steel angle and bolt it
to the edge of the table even with the table top. This will make those
double flush rivets come out nicely. And the trailing edge will be
perfectly straight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Flaps and Ailerons
>
> Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't rivet the top and bottom skins to the
> flaps in the same manner as was used on the ailerons, in the cradles ?
> The only real difference between the two components are ribs versus
> stiffners.
> Gene 90296 wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flaps and Ailerons |
Oh, Im sorry I thought you meant you riveted the whole thing together in the
"saddles" including the trailing edge. You are just talking about riveting
the skins to the spars arent you. I did the whole flap assy laying flat on
the table. I think because they are so long it would be easy to put a twist
in them.
Happy building
Kevin
> Excuse me I refered to it as a cradle, the instructions call them saddles.
> And yes that is how I riveted the top and bottom skin to the spar and
> leading edge. I am very pleased as to how the ailerons came out. That is
> why I am questioning the different method for the flaps when the only
> apparent difference is ribs vs. stiffners
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Emergency landings, prop info |
I practiced an emergency decent and landing last night from 9000 down to
Sequim Valley 109' MSL. Trimmed out at 68-70 MPH it maintains a nice 500-600
FPM decent, slightly nose high. Plenty of time to look around, from that
altitude it actually started to get boring. I dont know what the power off
rate of decent for other models is, but from what I have read recently a 6
with a constant speed prop drops pretty quick. I have a fixed pitch, would be
interested to hear about how a constant speed works out when more of you get
in the air. My prop is under pitched, I have figured out I need to drop the
RPMs down 150. Prop is now 68" dia X 70" pitch. Vans reccomends a Sensenich
70"X 78" I am planning on buying a used metal prop and experimenting with it.
I am seeing 180 MPH, but this is over revving the engine, so I dont hold it
there long.
Kevin -9A
O-320 160 HP Catto Prop
48 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Emergency landings, prop info |
Kevin,
Thanks for providing this info on your new plane. What kind of take off roll
and climb rate are you getting?
Have you done descent tests at other speeds to determine your "best glide"
speed?
As I'm sure you know, it's not the rate of descent that matters but rather
the gradiant, or feet per mile that counts for establishing best glide. For
example at 68 mph and 600 fpm rate of descent your gradiant is 529 feet per
mile. However, at 90 mph and a rate of descent of 700 fpm, your gradient is
only 467 feet per mile.
I have made a quick and dirty spreadsheet with two methods that you could
use to fill in the blanks and establish the "Best Glide" speed by trying
different speeds in your plane. Drop me a note if you want it.
Regards,
Cliff
> I practiced an emergency decent and landing last night from 9000 down to
> Sequim Valley 109' MSL. Trimmed out at 68-70 MPH it maintains a nice
500-600
> FPM decent, slightly nose high. Plenty of time to look around, from that
> altitude it actually started to get boring. I dont know what the power off
> rate of decent for other models is, but from what I have read recently a 6
> with a constant speed prop drops pretty quick. I have a fixed pitch, would
be
> interested to hear about how a constant speed works out when more of you
get
> in the air. My prop is under pitched, I have figured out I need to drop
the
> RPMs down 150. Prop is now 68" dia X 70" pitch. Vans reccomends a
Sensenich
> 70"X 78" I am planning on buying a used metal prop and experimenting with
it.
> I am seeing 180 MPH, but this is over revving the engine, so I dont hold
it
> there long.
> Kevin -9A
> O-320 160 HP Catto Prop
> 48 hours
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Kerr" <kerrjohna(at)mtwest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Emergency landings, prop info |
cliff, would like to have your spreadsheets on file.
John Kerr
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Emergency landings, prop info
>
>
> Kevin,
> Thanks for providing this info on your new plane. What kind of take off
roll
> and climb rate are you getting?
> Have you done descent tests at other speeds to determine your "best glide"
> speed?
> As I'm sure you know, it's not the rate of descent that matters but rather
> the gradiant, or feet per mile that counts for establishing best glide.
For
> example at 68 mph and 600 fpm rate of descent your gradiant is 529 feet
per
> mile. However, at 90 mph and a rate of descent of 700 fpm, your gradient
is
> only 467 feet per mile.
> I have made a quick and dirty spreadsheet with two methods that you could
> use to fill in the blanks and establish the "Best Glide" speed by trying
> different speeds in your plane. Drop me a note if you want it.
> Regards,
> Cliff
>
>
> > I practiced an emergency decent and landing last night from 9000 down to
> > Sequim Valley 109' MSL. Trimmed out at 68-70 MPH it maintains a nice
> 500-600
> > FPM decent, slightly nose high. Plenty of time to look around, from that
> > altitude it actually started to get boring. I dont know what the power
off
> > rate of decent for other models is, but from what I have read recently a
6
> > with a constant speed prop drops pretty quick. I have a fixed pitch,
would
> be
> > interested to hear about how a constant speed works out when more of you
> get
> > in the air. My prop is under pitched, I have figured out I need to drop
> the
> > RPMs down 150. Prop is now 68" dia X 70" pitch. Vans reccomends a
> Sensenich
> > 70"X 78" I am planning on buying a used metal prop and experimenting
with
> it.
> > I am seeing 180 MPH, but this is over revving the engine, so I dont hold
> it
> > there long.
> > Kevin -9A
> > O-320 160 HP Catto Prop
> > 48 hours
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Hinge Bracket |
I just received the latest RVator and went right to the revisions page.
They show a revision in the placement of the manufactured head to the
opposite side of the aileron hinge bracket. Mine are built and
attached. Does anyone know a reason for this change?
Gene 90296 Wings (I thought they were done!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Hinge Bracket |
Gene, this was just for clearance between the aluminum bracket on the wing
and the steel bracket on the aileron. Mine are installed backwards (according
to the revision) but I dont have any clearance problems.
Kevin
> I just received the latest RVator and went right to the revisions page.
> They show a revision in the placement of the manufactured head to the
> opposite side of the aileron hinge bracket. Mine are built and
> attached. Does anyone know a reason for this change?
>
> Gene 90296 Wings (I thought they were done!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Stands for RV-9A |
If anyone in the Portland Or. area would like to borrow a set of wing
stands for an RV-9A I would certainly be willing to loan them.....I do
see another "9" in the future so I would like them returned.
I also have saddles for the tanks/leading edge and for the
flap/ailerons. If you have a need for these contact me off list and I
will give you my phone number.
Gene 90296 Wings gene(at)nvaircraft.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Whitaker <rmwhitaker(at)lanl.gov> |
| Subject: | Plans Revisions Question |
I was glancing through my most recent RVator and
noticed plans revisions in the back. I'm building an
RV-9. I realized that there may have been earlier
revisions that I may have missed since I've only
been a subscriber to RVator during 2001. How does
one get a hold of all the revisions to the plans? Will
Van's send them out on request? Is there an
archive that I can access?
Rob
RV-9, wings, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First RV-9As |
Although Kevin's 9 may not have been the first one in the air, from the
pictures in the current RVator it certainly is the best looking one.
Congratulations Kevin. You're the man.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
To those who replied to my offer:
I have attached a picture of my wing stands, they are not the "H" jig.
However I have that also as I used it for the horizontal. I don't know
if you can send a picture thru this list, if not send me your e-mail
address and I will send it direct.
Gene 90296 picking up fuselage kit
tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
Having match drilled / deburred / dimpled the VS skeleton and skin it is
now time to put it all together. (So far it is without twist.)
QUESTION - I would much rather put the skin in a cradle and build it up
in the same way I built the HS. Is there any reason why you do not
suggest this. Has anyone else done this? It would require much less
pealing back of skins, and I think ALL rivets can be easily accessed if
the VS 404 is added last.
Would welcome your thoughts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
on 7/27/01 11:02 AM, Steve Sampson at SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu wrote:
>
> Having match drilled / deburred / dimpled the VS skeleton and skin it is
> now time to put it all together. (So far it is without twist.)
>
> QUESTION - I would much rather put the skin in a cradle and build it up
> in the same way I built the HS. Is there any reason why you do not
> suggest this. Has anyone else done this? It would require much less
> pealing back of skins, and I think ALL rivets can be easily accessed if
> the VS 404 is added last.
>
> Would welcome your thoughts.
>
Steve,
I did it the way you're describing and it came out fine.
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
Greetings from El Paso. tx.
We did just that made a cradle and assembled in unit.
Worked just fine and pretty simple. Although we are now building a 7A in
our shop also and did not find the peeling of the skin in jig a problem at
all . Either way no big deal
Marcel in El Paso finishing up last flap
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 12:02 PM
Subject: RV9-List: VS
>
> Having match drilled / deburred / dimpled the VS skeleton and skin it is
> now time to put it all together. (So far it is without twist.)
>
> QUESTION - I would much rather put the skin in a cradle and build it up
> in the same way I built the HS. Is there any reason why you do not
> suggest this. Has anyone else done this? It would require much less
> pealing back of skins, and I think ALL rivets can be easily accessed if
> the VS 404 is added last.
>
> Would welcome your thoughts.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron Hinge Bracket |
Gene:
Here is a picture of the problem that I ran into when following the original
version of the drawing:
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/corrections.html
I drilled out the rivets and installed "double flush" rivets with Van's
blessing.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
working on hangar
-----Original Message-----
I just received the latest RVator and went right to the revisions page.
They show a revision in the placement of the manufactured head to the
opposite side of the aileron hinge bracket. Mine are built and
attached. Does anyone know a reason for this change?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Hinge Bracket |
Chris.......I did this to both aileron brackets after getting the notice in
the last RVator. No perticular reason to do the inboard brackets other then
to have them look the same. I had seen your comment on your website
previously but lost track of where it was.
Thanks Gene 90296 Just started Fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Aileron Hinge Bracket
>
> Gene:
>
> Here is a picture of the problem that I ran into when following the
original
> version of the drawing:
>
> http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/corrections.html
>
> I drilled out the rivets and installed "double flush" rivets with Van's
> blessing.
>
> Chris Heitman
> Dousman WI
> RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
> working on hangar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> I just received the latest RVator and went right to the revisions page.
> They show a revision in the placement of the manufactured head to the
> opposite side of the aileron hinge bracket. Mine are built and
> attached. Does anyone know a reason for this change?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: VS and now Rudder. |
Steve, you will need the #6 and #8 dimple dies for the wings and the rest of
the airplane anyway, but you can still just countersink the lead and tighten
the nut until it pulls the screw head down into the countersunk hole.
Kevin
>Also I do not have a dimple die for the bolts holding the lead in place.
>(Its an odd size.) Can one dimple by using an identical bolt and pulling
>into a supported female hole by tightening on the nut?
>
>
>Thanks all. Steve.
>
>RV9 #90360
>Yorkshire, England.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Steve, I did the rudder as it is done on Vans' demo aircraft. I let
the r-913 overlap the r-901 l & r skins. This lets the aft end of the
913 counterbalance skin "trail" in the slipstream and looks better. I
noticed the difference while at Vans' on a tour and asked the rep. why
the difference and wht couldn't I do the same on my A/C....his answer
was "why not you are building an experimental aircraft"
One more hint if you are not at his point yet: On the trailing edge and
the double flush rivets. The plans call for 426AD3-3.5. I found these
to be to long and wanting to "hook over". I went to a shorter rivet
-3.0 and it worked fine. Also set these rivets just enough to get
things to hold together with your back rivet set and then turn the
suface over and finish driving the rivets with a flush set. This size
rivet and method is how the manual calls for when doing the flaps and
ailerons.
Gene 90296 fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marcel Bourgon" <mbourgon(at)elp.rr.com> |
Greetings from El Paso
I did the same thing with both my ailerons and now the flaps
I set all the rivets in trailing edge and then with my hand squeezer set
just enough to hold the hold mess together.
Then I set them on my back bucking plate and set the backs with the small
mushroom head Avery sells.
You want to make sure you set a 2" x 2" piece of lumber and weights to keep
everything good and straight. I use a couple of 25lb bags of gun shot.
Using the small mushroom was the nuts and every thing came out razor sharp.
Pretty easy
marcel in el paso just finishing up tanks then fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:01 AM
Subject: RV9-List: RV-9 Rudder
>
> Steve, I did the rudder as it is done on Vans' demo aircraft. I let
> the r-913 overlap the r-901 l & r skins. This lets the aft end of the
> 913 counterbalance skin "trail" in the slipstream and looks better. I
> noticed the difference while at Vans' on a tour and asked the rep. why
> the difference and wht couldn't I do the same on my A/C....his answer
> was "why not you are building an experimental aircraft"
> One more hint if you are not at his point yet: On the trailing edge and
> the double flush rivets. The plans call for 426AD3-3.5. I found these
> to be to long and wanting to "hook over". I went to a shorter rivet
> -3.0 and it worked fine. Also set these rivets just enough to get
> things to hold together with your back rivet set and then turn the
> suface over and finish driving the rivets with a flush set. This size
> rivet and method is how the manual calls for when doing the flaps and
> ailerons.
> Gene 90296 fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
Well, Sunday was 3 weeks into my project... Thursday I closed the HS &
Sunday I closed the VS! Now it's on to the rudder.
A little tip for the archives... I found the HS went together much
better if I clecoed in 3 of the main ribs when I was trying to work on
the center nose rib. Maybe that was obvious to others, but not me...
Once I had those in there, then everything was held much better and able
to be worked on. I also built a small wedge shaped bucking bar out of
some bar steel to use to set those first few nose rivets.
- Andy Karmy (andy.karmy(at)home.com)
RV9A - Tail
Seattle, WA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fly84878(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving me
fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this is
a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate it.
Roger Aspegren
# 90350
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
I too am having problems with these rivets. I punted on them for awhile and
continued riveting the rest of the spar in hopes that I could check the list
archive when it came back up. I think part of the problem may be all the
stuff in the way of the bucking bar in this area. I'm probably not getting
good, square pressure on the shop head.
Any tips from those that have finished this step?
Brian Woodruff
#90388
I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving me
fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this is
a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate
it.
Roger Aspegren
# 90350
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
Roger,
I had trouble here too. I was thinking of calling or e-mailing Van's and
asking if it would be OK to just use a couple of pop rivets, or maybe Cherry
rivets. If you get an answer, please report it to the list.
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A Wings
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
I finished my horizontal stabilizer some months back and must confess my
problems there are now forgotten, all though I did have them. I am only
replying to tell you that for me the following parts(vert stab & rudder) are
much easier to rivet.
Dennis Thomas
9-A, elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dean van winkle" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net> |
| Subject: | Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
I too had trouble with the long rivets. I tried both # 2 and # 3 guns
with a 4-5 pound bar and was going nowhere. A local RV-6 builder
stopped by and we had good results using the # 3 gun with approx 50 psi
and a 2 pound bar. Apparently with the mass of the stab and the very
heavy bar, almost no setting action was taking place on the shop head
end of the rivets.
Dean Van Winkle
# 90095
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
Roger you might try makeing some small custom made bucking bars. I made
some out of 3/4" x1 1/4" flat bar of lenghts in the 2"-2 1/2"range with one
end cut at an angle of 10 to 15 degrees then polished. I use these bars
more than any of the store bought bars. They seem to work very well in the
tight spot you are talking about.
Gene Park 90296 Fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fly84878(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab
>
> I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving
me
> fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
> attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
> form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
> drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
> rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this
is
> a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
> correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate
it.
>
> Roger Aspegren
> # 90350
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
I riveted the Attach Angles after completely assembling the HS, and hence
had no problem getting at the rivets in question.
There was also no problem getting at the rivets for the Attach Angles.
(This sequence of assembly was not "planned", but rather the result of a
previous "error in orientation" requiring 5-9 rivets rather than 4-9's, but
that is another story.)
Dave Nicholson
# 90347 Wings
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fly84878(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:24 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab
>
> I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving
me
> fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
> attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
> form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
> drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
> rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this
is
> a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
> correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate
it.
>
> Roger Aspegren
> # 90350
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
Roger, I also drilled out those same rivets more times than I care to think about.
I finally used a pneumatic squeezer with a 3" throat and they came out well. You
could build a strong supporting structure under the spar to provide a solid
back-up for the bucking bar.
Leland in Pleasanton California
RV9 working on empenage tips
Fly84878(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving me
> fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
> attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
> form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
> drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
> rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this is
> a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
> correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate it.
>
> Roger Aspegren
> # 90350
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve dwyer" <stdwyer(at)dreamscape.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Selection |
Just starting the fuselage and have come across the subaruaircraft.com
web site. Up to this point it;s been Lycoming all the way but I have to
admit this package looks impressive, has anyone out there have anything
really against the Subaru they would like to share after reviewing the
story? Aside from several rv-9 builders that have decided to go Subaru
on the east coast and a number of Glasair's with some hours on them I
cannot find the confidence in reliability I need to build this engine
into my plane. But I have to admit there are a number of real good
reasons I can't just ignore. I'd appreciate some input here building the
firewall is getting close to the final decision point.
Steve Dwyer 90219
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Tyson" <kentyson(at)texas.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
Hey Steve!
Never fear! There's lots of support for the Eggenfellner/Subaru in
the RV community.
A compelling case for that engine is made in Robert Paisley's RV-7
website at:
www.protekperformance.com/rv7/engine/index.shtml
I & a number of other RV-9A builders have also decided to go with the
Eggenfellner/Subaru.
Please read Robert's web page before you make up your mind. Good luck
on your project.
Ken Tyson N532UT
RV-9A(wings)
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve dwyer" <stdwyer(at)dreamscape.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 7:18 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Engine Selection
>
> Just starting the fuselage and have come across the subaruaircraft.com
> web site. Up to this point it;s been Lycoming all the way but I have to
> admit this package looks impressive, has anyone out there have anything
> really against the Subaru they would like to share after reviewing the
> story? Aside from several rv-9 builders that have decided to go Subaru
> on the east coast and a number of Glasair's with some hours on them I
> cannot find the confidence in reliability I need to build this engine
> into my plane. But I have to admit there are a number of real good
> reasons I can't just ignore. I'd appreciate some input here building the
> firewall is getting close to the final decision point.
> Steve Dwyer 90219
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paulbaird(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
Dean,
I just did those rivets today. The 4-8's. They were a pain in the
neck. I turned the air up on the gun and used a short offset rivet set. I
had my buddy on the bucking bar and I ran the gun. We pushed hard against
the rivet and we were able to form some good shop heads, although it took
longer than usual.
Paul Baird 90355
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fr8dawg8(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
I have decided to go with the Subaru engine package from Eggenfellner for
several reasons. 1) I have owned a couple of Subarus and have had absolutely
no trouble with the engines. The first, an '80 I junked in '99 with about
160000 miles on it with mega body rust but the engine was happily humming
along. My present, a '95, has about 105000 miles with no engine trouble to
present. 2) The cost is about $10000 cheaper than the Lycoming for the same
horsepower and weight. 3) The computer controlled fuel and ignition is
similar to the FADEC system that conventional aircraft engines are
experimenting with but are not quite available yet. Subaru has been using
them for years successfully. 4) With the 3 bladed Warpdrive prop it will be
much quieter. It also has a muffler, quiter still. 5) There will be much more
room up front ahead of the firewall to install the engine and accessories. 6)
There is a heater package that will use coolant to heat the cockpit and
defrost the canopy. No carbon monoxide, either. 7) You don't have to mess
around a lot with adjusting baffles to get the cooling just right. 8) You
will get an engine that is more efficient because it is liquid cooled. It
will get better milage, run smoother and you don't have to worry about shock
cooling. Afraid of a liquid cooled engine? Well, most of the WWII fighters,
P-38, P-39, P-40, P-51, Hurricane, Spitfire, ME109 were liquid cooled and you
don't have to worry about losing the coolant to battle damage. 9) It has a
backup battery system that will power the computer and dual fuel
pumps/injectors for two hours after the main electrical system might go down
so you can get to a landing spot before the fan stops turning. 10) It comes
as a bolt on system with engine mount and accessories included. For all these
reasons I intend to go Subaru. Eggenfellner has my deposit and I will be
taking delivery next summer when I will be ready to mount it to my fuselage.
Check out the website at www.Subaruaircraft.com. If you decide to do one
mention my name so I can get the $5000 referral fee. Ha! Just kidding.
Kelly Wilson N64KW 90177
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
Well I am proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after considerable
deliberation,
chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more time and energy in
engine
research than any part of this project from day one. I can, and have, gone on
about this
topic for many pages, but I'll try to cut to the chase and keep it to a page or
two...
My problem with Lycoming is not about the age of the design, it is about fuel
and their
high cost of purchase and overhaul. Having rebuilt Lycomings myself, I simply
don't feel
the motor is worth the prices being levied on GA. Sure our legal system has
forced
Lycontinental into defensive positions, but they need GA to keep their
investment sound
while at the same time they are strangling GA with their own business practices.
Before
I was enlightened, I had even contacted Textron/Lycoming Financial Services (per
ad on
the EAA web site) who claim to be supportive of the homebuilder. Yet what I
found was
terrible customer services and loan programs that blatantly block homebuilders
from
qualifying. A quick example, Textron Financial will not loan money to buy a
(Textron) engine
to anyone who has already started building their planes! They require you to
finance the
entire kit up front, with a minimum loan of $29,000. This flies in the face of
the way kitbuilders
operate (phased-kits, incremental investment over years), and the minimum loan
is more
than many kits cost. Go figure. Because I invested my own money and only want
to finance
their own overpriced product, I don't qualify??? Sounds dishonest to me.
That said, let's talk fuel - because Lycoming won't. It doesn't make sense to
this yankee to
shell out $22000 for the bare motor and $5000 to $10000 more for accessories and
prop
knowing full well that just around the corner is the inevitable, undeniable, end
of 100LL fuel.
It is already happening in New England, it's a done deal next year in parts of
Europe and the
entire US will follow in about 3-5 years, rendering about 1/3 of the GA fleet
grounded until
the new 83UL, or mogas, or diesel find their way to the pumps. Distribution
problems alone
are going to cost the industry huge dollars (separate storage tanks, transport
trucks, pumps, etc.)
which can only result in the continuation of obscene fuel prices. Even with a
new fuel, all
these aging Lycomings are built with pistons the size of dinner plates and
compressions
not ideally suited to the new fuel. Can you spell "STC"? Can you afford it?
Even with
these concerns, Lycomings are not, and have never been, "ideal" aircraft motors.
Consider
the number of accidents resulting from "engine mismanagement". Hug your jugs
if you must,
but I refuse to accept this story that technology has not served up a better
motor by now.
It turns out that technology HAS and IS serving up better motors. There is a
significant
and promising array of modern "competitive" (I refuse to use the word
"alternative") motors.
A quick web search will turn up DeltaHawk, Zoche, Wilsch, Belted Air, DynaCam,
Thielert,
BMW, Jabaru, Subaru, Toyota and many others. The problem with most of these
brave souls, is
that progress requires patience, politics, and deep pockets. Many of these are
fantastic,
innovative designs (just read about Zoche's pneumatic starter and watch the
videos!), but
they are either showing no sign of forward progress for years at a time, or
their products
are heavy and offer little price/performance advantage considering the high-cap
investment
required to produce a motor in volume. Oh and did I mention, you have to create
your own
engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, cowlings, ad infinitum. Can you afford it?
I was almost going Lyco, until a Subaru pilot suggested I check out three web
sites,
www.crossflow.com www.subielyc.com and www.subaruaircraft.com These folks
build
Subaru "packages". There is something here for everyone to consider.
Crossflow makes
customized Subarus up to 350hp, SubieLyc makes a system that bolts onto your
Lycoming
mounts, and Jan Eggenfellner over at Subaru Aircraft, is producing full
firewall-forward
packages for the RV9 and others. These are well thought out and by my tastes,
adequately
proven, packages. All are based on Subaru (read Fuji Heavy Industries) blocks.
If you
haven't seen one of these little jewels, you should. The first thing that will
strike you is how
chunky this little motor is. It has a crank like a little tree stump in an
opposed 4-cyl configuration
born of Fuji's bid at the aviation market may years ago. But, it is
fuel-injected, liquid cooled
(no shock cooling, hot cylinders, dripping fuel primers, or loose-fitting-piston
slap),
turbo and supercharged capable, and it sips 83UL, 87 octane mogas, or 100LL.
It's
computer controlled ignition and injection system (read FADEC) adjust to
compensate for
temperature, altitude, fuel potency, wear, and other factors to deliver
single-lever operation
with outstanding cold-start (important to us easterners), climb, and cruise
performance and
economy. They spin state of the art, lightweight, composite props, some with
fully automatic
pitch control.
Yes you must use a prop speed reduction unit to harness the higher RPM power and
torque
curves, but consider how many great birds over the years ran PSRU's. Do you
laugh at Mustangs?
These are science by now and there are many to choose from if you are
pro-choice.
If you do the ring-velocity-math, even at the higher RPMs, the small-bore
Subarus show
evidence of good design and ample TBO. Look at your logbooks - how many years
does
it take you to fly 2000 hours? What if my Subaru needed a new block (throw
the old one
away and buy a fresh one for 1200 bucks anywhere in the world) after 10 years?
So what?
Maybe I'll buy a six-pack of spares and shrink wrap them...
Subarus can be found in many high-performance racing vehicles, routinely turning
10000
RPMs. For aviation purposes, they turn 5600 on takeoff and 4000 at cruise.
Because
of their small size and mass distribution, they run incredibly smooth and quiet.
"Quiet" is
a word nobody will ever see in the same sentence as "Lycoming". Finally, just
check out
these web sites and see for yourself, and talk to some of the Subaru pilots.
This motor is
a thing of beauty, and leaves me with enough spare change to buy most of my
avionics.
The decision is yours, I'll look for you at the pump, if you can find one with
100LL.
Gary Newsted
----- Original Message -----
From: steve dwyer <stdwyer(at)dreamscape.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:18 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Engine Selection
>
> Just starting the fuselage and have come across the subaruaircraft.com
> web site. Up to this point it;s been Lycoming all the way but I have to
> admit this package looks impressive, has anyone out there have anything
> really against the Subaru they would like to share after reviewing the
> story? Aside from several rv-9 builders that have decided to go Subaru
> on the east coast and a number of Glasair's with some hours on them I
> cannot find the confidence in reliability I need to build this engine
> into my plane. But I have to admit there are a number of real good
> reasons I can't just ignore. I'd appreciate some input here building the
> firewall is getting close to the final decision point.
> Steve Dwyer 90219
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hey y'all,
Ran into a problem today when trying to install the flap motor. It wouldn't
connect with the WD613 EF flap actuator bar.
The problem is I assumed that the area masked off (no powder coat) near the
center of the bar was for the center bearing block which is to the left of
the tunnel. So, I installed the bar with the masked off area to the left of
the tunnel. The flap motor rod end wouldn't Mate with the weldment.
It seems that some WD613's are masked off on the right side, not the left.
If you assume that the maked off side is the left, you may get it wrong and
have to pull it out, and scape the powder coat off the other side, then
reinstall it.
So before you put in in the fuse, compare it closely to see which side has
been masked. If it's the right, Vans says you can just install the center
bearing block on the right side instead. It works as well either way.
Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy.karmy(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
Hey Gary,
Thanks for the detailed thoughts on this great engine option.
One question that I have for you, or others doing research here is about
insurance??? I have heard rumor's that planes with a non lyc in them are
very hard to insure compared to the usual lyc choice.
Have you heard anything about that?
Maby we should do some quotes with Avemco and check it out.
- Andy Karmy (andy.karmy(at)home.com)
RV9A - Tail
Seattle, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Engine Selection
>
> Well I am proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after
considerable
> deliberation,
> chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more time and energy
in
> engine
> research than any part of this project from day one. I can, and have,
gone on
> about this
> topic for many pages, but I'll try to cut to the chase and keep it to a
page or
> two...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
It would be good to get some quotes anyway. I would be interested in that if
somebody knows and doesn't mind posting it. As for basic insurability, from
what I have been able to gather, the major players are not as concerned with
type of motor as they are type of airframe. They tend to focus on the overall
track record of the airframe. I inquired early on about the RV9. On one
hand,
its an "RV" with a solid history and more flying airframes than many
"production"
corporations have. On the other hand, at the time, only one RV9 had flown and
it
unfortunately and fatally, crashed. While I didn't highlight this last point,
it didn't
seem to matter to them; it was a "Vans RV".
As for the Eggenfellner Subaru, Jan has received confirmation from Avemco that
they do indeed cover his installations, primarily because they are full firewall
forward
packages. I would assume this relates to consistency and ability to control
quality.
At any rate, consider that 25% of all competitive engine solutions are Subarus.
That's the largest share of this market, not something that can be ignored,
particularly
by the insurance industry. Have they ever turned down your money?
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Karmy <andy.karmy(at)home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Engine Selection
>
> Hey Gary,
>
> Thanks for the detailed thoughts on this great engine option.
>
> One question that I have for you, or others doing research here is about
> insurance??? I have heard rumor's that planes with a non lyc in them are
> very hard to insure compared to the usual lyc choice.
>
> Have you heard anything about that?
>
> Maby we should do some quotes with Avemco and check it out.
>
>
> - Andy Karmy (andy.karmy(at)home.com)
> RV9A - Tail
> Seattle, WA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: Engine Selection
>
>
> >
> > Well I am proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after
> considerable
> > deliberation,
> > chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more time and energy
> in
> > engine
> > research than any part of this project from day one. I can, and have,
> gone on
> > about this
> > topic for many pages, but I'll try to cut to the chase and keep it to a
> page or
> > two...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fr8dawg8(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Selection |
About insurance for Subaru powered aircraft. I talked to Nationsair and
they weren't even interested in providing builders insurance for an
alternative powered air machine.
After that I contacted Avemco and they would do so but only after I had
100 hours on the airframe.
Next, I asked one of those Glasair owners flying a Subie powered airplane
and he told me that he had insurance from AOPA from his first flight. I
joined AOPA and the next day sent my application in. After a slight delay due
to underwriters being up at Oshkosh I was issued a policy for builders and
liability insurance and promised that there would be no problem with flight
insurance when I was ready to launch.
There are other insurers who will cover you, also. I understand that
Avemco is rethinking their policy at present and might in the future provide
coverage from first flight. However, this is a good reason to be an AOPA
member if you aren't already.
Kelly Wilson N64KW 90177-to be Subaru powered
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
I just finished my rudder and was disheartened by one side, oil canning a
bit. I talked to Gus at Van's and was assured it was OK.
To my Question:
Reading the building tips in the instructions they discuss heating the
skins before riveting to keep them tight. It seems to me( I realize this is
Blashemy to question the intstructions.) that if the holes are match drilled
even if the skins are installed and riveted while warm they would still have
ultimately fit the same way when they have cooled. Has anyone done this? How
did it work out? I would like to hear opinions and the results of others
experiances.
Dennis Thomas
RV-9 elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Vanatta" <jnv(at)home.com> |
I built mine back in the winter and left the skeleton out side of the heated
area and then used heat lamps to heat the skin. I got a very smooth
surface.. Takes some heated fingers but may be worth it.
Jerry in Nashville TN. Fuselage almost complete. Ordered wing kit this
week.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
DThomas773(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:58 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Heating Skins
I just finished my rudder and was disheartened by one side, oil canning a
bit. I talked to Gus at Van's and was assured it was OK.
To my Question:
Reading the building tips in the instructions they discuss heating the
skins before riveting to keep them tight. It seems to me( I realize this
is
Blashemy to question the intstructions.) that if the holes are match drilled
even if the skins are installed and riveted while warm they would still have
ultimately fit the same way when they have cooled. Has anyone done this?
How
did it work out? I would like to hear opinions and the results of others
experiances.
Dennis Thomas
RV-9 elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heating Skins |
on 8/29/01 1:58 PM, DThomas773(at)aol.com at DThomas773(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I just finished my rudder and was disheartened by one side, oil canning a
> bit. I talked to Gus at Van's and was assured it was OK.
> To my Question:
> Reading the building tips in the instructions they discuss heating the
> skins before riveting to keep them tight. It seems to me( I realize this is
> Blashemy to question the intstructions.) that if the holes are match drilled
> even if the skins are installed and riveted while warm they would still have
> ultimately fit the same way when they have cooled. Has anyone done this? How
> did it work out? I would like to hear opinions and the results of others
> experiances.
>
> Dennis Thomas
> RV-9 elevator
Dennis,
In "18 Years of the RVator," there is a story about heating the skins. It's
been awhile since I read it, but I seem to remember it saying heating might
be a good idea for the wings because of their large size, but probably
wouldn't do much good for the tail feathers because of their smaller size.
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9 Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Building Fuselage Before Wings |
> Jerry in Nashville TN. Fuselage almost complete. Ordered wing kit this
> week.
>
Jerry, how did you finish the fuselage without having the match-drilled
center section and longerons that ship with the wing kit?
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A Wings
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Vanatta" <jnv(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Building Fuselage Before Wings |
Almost everything can be mated and prepared including all the parts that
have to be fabricated. Tail section to center section as well as the forward
side skins and bottom. Final level and squaring will be done when the center
spar and longerons arrive. The amazing beauty of pre punched. And, this is
my fith airplane. The best and most enjoyable of all. Happy Building.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Schrimmer
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:05 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Building Fuselage Before Wings
> Jerry in Nashville TN. Fuselage almost complete. Ordered wing kit this
> week.
>
Jerry, how did you finish the fuselage without having the match-drilled
center section and longerons that ship with the wing kit?
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A Wings
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heating Skins |
There's another side to heating that is worth considering. First, you are
correct that heating the skins on a match-hole kit is somewhat moot. In
fact, it would be awfully hard to assure equal heating of all pieces that are
destined to mate. If one were to expand more than another and you drill
them in this condition, then when they cool you'll actually induce a bit of
stress into the skins. Ultimately, though unlikely, this may result in
rivet-hole cracks over time. However, I said there was another side of
the story...
The very act of dimpling and riveting induces all sorts of odd stresses into
the metal surrounding a rivet hole. I have seen special (not sure if it was
infrared, xray. magnaflux, or what, so I'll just call it special) photos of
typical
joinery methods. Rivets can pinch, bend, squeeze, stretch, and deform
thin metals in strange ways. Yet, apply just a small amount of heat and
the majority of stresses melt away! This will naturally occur over time as
the plane is exposed to the heat from the sun, but you can accelerate the
process with a quick circular touch of a propane torch. I routinely do this
after I finish riveting control surfaces and other thin sheeted sections. It
only takes a moment, doesn't in any way wreck the primer on the back side
and you can watch the skins move before your very eyes. They tend to
buldge and make oil-canning noises as they heat then cool. Once they
cool all the way, they look noticably smoother. I have used this technique
to "cure" oil-canning on many occasions. Of course, oil-canning is a
result of slight misalignment of holes to begin with. This is why I reject the
idea that you can skip the match-drilling and just ram the rivets into the
punch holes as some are advocating. Just keep the flame moving and
don't heat it any more than you would want to lay your hand on. Warm...
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: <DThomas773(at)aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Heating Skins
>
> I just finished my rudder and was disheartened by one side, oil canning a
> bit. I talked to Gus at Van's and was assured it was OK.
> To my Question:
> Reading the building tips in the instructions they discuss heating the
> skins before riveting to keep them tight. It seems to me( I realize this is
> Blashemy to question the intstructions.) that if the holes are match drilled
> even if the skins are installed and riveted while warm they would still have
> ultimately fit the same way when they have cooled. Has anyone done this? How
> did it work out? I would like to hear opinions and the results of others
> experiances.
>
> Dennis Thomas
> RV-9 elevator
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab |
Yes these have caused me a major problem. I have put them on one side for
now to come back to later. I think the solution is a VERY heavy bucking bar
behind them from experiences I have had later in the construction but I have
not yet found a heavy enough piece of steel of the right shape. I am glad I
am not alone!
Steve RV9a
N Yorks., UK
Working on the rudder.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fly84878(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Stubborn rivets on RV-9A Horiz Stab
>
> I am down to two 1/8" rivets to finish the Horiz Stab and they are giving
me
> fits. The rivets are located on the inboard HS 904 main ribs next to the
> attach angle (front spar). I have not been able to get the shop head to
> form. I have drilled these rivets out so many times I am almost afraid to
> drill them out again. The rivets fit very tight now. Can this cause the
> rivet not to form a shop head? I am using a 2X gun but do not think this
is
> a problem since I had no trouble getting the other 1/8" rivets to form
> correctly. If anyone has any words of wisdom I would certainly appreciate
it.
>
> Roger Aspegren
> # 90350
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Heating Skins |
I have started to rivet the rudder skins to the skeleton and have stopped
because of two concerns:
1) the oil canning that you have looks likely for me
and worse
2) I am concerned that the trailing edge which lined up perfectly when I
match drilled everything is now being pulled out of shape by the lead
counterweight.
QUESTION: Did you take extra special care to support the weight when you
were assembling? The problem 'appeared ' when I put the top rib in. Mine is
laid on its side with some support for the weight, but I think I will have
to drill a few rivets out and back up. Comments VERY welcome.
Steve RV9a
N Yorks., UK
Working on the rudder
----- Original Message -----
From: <DThomas773(at)aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:58 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Heating Skins
>
> I just finished my rudder and was disheartened by one side, oil canning a
> bit. I talked to Gus at Van's and was assured it was OK.
> To my Question:
> Reading the building tips in the instructions they discuss heating the
> skins before riveting to keep them tight. It seems to me( I realize this
is
> Blashemy to question the intstructions.) that if the holes are match
drilled
> even if the skins are installed and riveted while warm they would still
have
> ultimately fit the same way when they have cooled. Has anyone done this?
How
> did it work out? I would like to hear opinions and the results of others
> experiances.
>
> Dennis Thomas
> RV-9 elevator
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Heating Skins |
Hi Steve,
I didn't have trouble with the weight. I think if you carefully follow the
riveting sequence you will be OK.
Gus at Van's told me that if the oil canning was not rising and falling more
than a quarter inch it would be OK and not be a problem in flight. Mine was
from high to low 3/32 of an inch so I went ahead and riveted the trailing
edge. Actually doing that tightened up the loose side a bit. Good luck!
Dennis Thomas
RV9A #90164
elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Running Fuel Lines |
Well, boys and girls, here's a fun part of building. (Ref. Dwg. 36) I'm
running the fuel lines from the selector valve outboard through the cover
support ribs (F982b), through the Landing gear brackets and out the side
skin for the wing tanks. Not only is the fuel line very stiff but the hole
in the cover support rib is too low and the fuel line runs into part of the
landing gear bracket. Called Tom Green yesterday and he said the designers
were aware of this but that they felt it should work. Couldn't agree less!
My solution was to rivet a .032 plate over the 3 holes already in the cover
support rib and then make 3 new holes, leaving the top one (for electrical)
in its original place, move the center brake line hole up and forward, and
the bottom hole up and back. The net result raised the fuel line hole about
1/2 inch which is just right.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on %$#@ fuel lines.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/29/01 |
proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after considerable
deliberation, chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more
time and energy in engine research than any part of this project from day
one. I can, and have, gone on about this topic for many pages, but I'll
try to cut to the chase and keep it to a page or two...
__Gary, could you tell us what Subie engine you intend to use.
Displacement, horsepower expected, reduction drive, induction system
(turbo charged?), and how it will be cooled?
thanks,
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/29/01 |
proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after considerable
deliberation, chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more
time and energy in engine research than any part of this project from day
one. I can, and have, gone on about this topic for many pages, but I'll
try to cut to the chase and keep it to a page or two...
__Gary, could you tell us what Subie engine you intend to use.
Displacement, horsepower expected, reduction drive, induction system
(turbo charged?), and how it will be cooled?
thanks,
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jones" <esnj(at)granbury.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Running Fuel Lines |
I just finished the fuel, brake and vent lines on my 9A and encountered the
same problems. After getting some annealed tubing (softer), I moved the
fuel line holes back about 1/2 inch in the small cover support bracket. I
also installed AN931-6-16 grommets in the landing gear bracket for added
protection. Richard Jones
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Running Fuel Lines
>
> Well, boys and girls, here's a fun part of building. (Ref. Dwg. 36) I'm
> running the fuel lines from the selector valve outboard through the cover
> support ribs (F982b), through the Landing gear brackets and out the side
> skin for the wing tanks. Not only is the fuel line very stiff but the
hole
> in the cover support rib is too low and the fuel line runs into part of
the
> landing gear bracket. Called Tom Green yesterday and he said the
designers
> were aware of this but that they felt it should work. Couldn't agree
less!
> My solution was to rivet a .032 plate over the 3 holes already in the
cover
> support rib and then make 3 new holes, leaving the top one (for
electrical)
> in its original place, move the center brake line hole up and forward,
and
> the bottom hole up and back. The net result raised the fuel line hole
about
> 1/2 inch which is just right.
>
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
> Working on %$#@ fuel lines.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/29/01 |
Tom, I'll be running an Eggenfellner Subaru. You can get the details
from their site www.subaruaircraft.com It's a 2.5L, 165hp, injected,
no turbo or supercharger (yet...).
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: <tom144(at)juno.com>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:14 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Re: RV9-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/29/01
>
> proud to say I am one of those easterners who, after considerable
> deliberation, chose the Subie over Lycoming. I probably invested more
> time and energy in engine research than any part of this project from day
> one. I can, and have, gone on about this topic for many pages, but I'll
> try to cut to the chase and keep it to a page or two...
>
> __Gary, could you tell us what Subie engine you intend to use.
> Displacement, horsepower expected, reduction drive, induction system
> (turbo charged?), and how it will be cooled?
>
> thanks,
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Rudder Bottom Question |
Can anybody describe to me how the RV-9 R-911 fiberglass Rudder Bottom
fits on. DWG 7 shows it going over the R-918 Attach Strip but the
drawing is ambiguous on whether it goes over or under the R-902 Front
Spar. The Isometric drawing of R-911 (on DWG 7) shows a cutout pattern
very different from the scribed lines on mine. My Rudder Bottom has a
line running some 5/8" above and along the upper (open side) edge (and
showing a cutout for the Rudder Horn), so do I trim off everything that
is scribed?
Leland in Pleasanton
90334 awaiting a December QuickBuild kit delivery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Mac Servo mounting |
I'm really confused. I have been staring at the left side elevator plan
trying to figure out how to mount the Mac Servo. DWG #4. I can understand
how the E-615 pp, trim access reinforceing plate and the E-616 pp Cover Plate
attach. I see where the Servo needs to be. What I don't see is how the
servo mounts to EET-602- R and EET-602-L and how they in turn mount to the
Cover Plate. Am I missing something? Is there a supplemental drawing
somewhere? I am asking for any help I can get here.
Dennis Thomas RV9A
Emp #90164
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Jaques" <bjaques(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/29/01 |
Hello All:
I ordered Eggenfellner Subaru engine for my RV9.
Bill Jaques bjaques(at)jps.net wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mac Servo mounting |
>
>I'm really confused. I have been staring at the
left side elevator plan
>trying to figure out how to mount the Mac Servo.
DWG #4. I can understand
>how the E-615 pp, trim access reinforceing plate
and the E-616 pp Cover Plate
>attach. I see where the Servo needs to be. What
I don't see is how the
>servo mounts to EET-602- R and EET-602-L and how
they in turn mount to the
>Cover Plate. Am I missing something? Is there a
supplemental drawing
>somewhere? I am asking for any help I can get
here.
>Dennis Thomas RV9A
>Emp #90164
>
>
There is a picture of it at this address:
http://www.myrv7.com/images/construction/20010712a
.jpg
If memery serves me rite it is the same on a
7...But a pic is worth a thousand words.
Jeff garrett
Rv 7a
N812W
reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mac Servo mounting |
Dennis,
Take a look at these photos (look in the "RV9 Elevator" folder).
www.barefootpilot.com
Cliff
>
> I'm really confused. I have been staring at the left side elevator plan
> trying to figure out how to mount the Mac Servo. DWG #4. I can
understand
> how the E-615 pp, trim access reinforceing plate and the E-616 pp Cover
Plate
> attach. I see where the Servo needs to be. What I don't see is how the
> servo mounts to EET-602- R and EET-602-L and how they in turn mount to the
> Cover Plate. Am I missing something? Is there a supplemental drawing
> somewhere? I am asking for any help I can get here.
> Dennis Thomas RV9A
> Emp #90164
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Votuc" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
| Subject: | Rivet positioning |
Well I have a dumb question for the group. Are the 470 rivets on the HS ( or
anywhere for that matter) pushed in from the rib side or the spar side ? I
can't seem to find any reference or pictures for the proper method in the
drawings. I do recall reading somewhere the factory head should always be on
the "small part" when possible. Does it really matter or is this a
"whatever is easier to buck" issue. How is this indicated on the darn
drawings....
Guy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Running Fuel Lines |
> Well, boys and girls, here's a fun part of building. (Ref. Dwg. 36) I'm
> running the fuel lines from the selector valve outboard through the cover
> support ribs (F982b), through the Landing gear brackets and out the side
> skin for the wing tanks. Not only is the fuel line very stiff but the
hole
> in the cover support rib is too low and the fuel line runs into part of
the
> landing gear bracket. Called Tom Green yesterday and he said the
designers
> were aware of this but that they felt it should work. Couldn't agree
less!
> My solution was to rivet a .032 plate over the 3 holes already in the
cover
> support rib and then make 3 new holes, leaving the top one (for
electrical)
> in its original place, move the center brake line hole up and forward,
and
> the bottom hole up and back. The net result raised the fuel line hole
about
> 1/2 inch which is just right.
Albert,
This is where I am at right now. I assume you are talking about the
brackets that mount on the fore side of the center section. There are four
of these, one large one small; left and right. Did you have to change the
holes in all four?
--Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Jaques" <bjaques(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet positioning |
Hello Guy:
The only problem I found is putting the shop side on thin metal such
as the rib flanges because it causes the metal to pull away from the
thicker metal. I put the rivet head on the thin metal when ever I can
but some times you just cant get into a spot to buck it properly. I have
talked to several people about it and they told me that it is just as strong
either way. You just need to be careful to keep the metal from developing
a gap. But as a general rule you want the rivet head on the thin or weakest
part. To answer your question the spar side is better but the rib side is
ok.
Bill Jaques RV9 wings... bjaques(at)jps.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Running Fuel Lines |
I ran the fuel line where the plan showed the vent line and vice versa, this
worked OK
Kevin 994KS
flying 103 hours
>
>> Well, boys and girls, here's a fun part of building. (Ref. Dwg. 36)
> I'm
>> running the fuel lines from the selector valve outboard through the cover
>> support ribs (F982b), through the Landing gear brackets and out the side
>> skin for the wing tanks. Not only is the fuel line very stiff but the
>hole
>> in the cover support rib is too low and the fuel line runs into part
>of
>the
>> landing gear bracket. Called Tom Green yesterday and he said the
>designers
>> were aware of this but that they felt it should work. Couldn't agree
>less!
>> My solution was to rivet a .032 plate over the 3 holes already in the
>cover
>> support rib and then make 3 new holes, leaving the top one (for
>electrical)
>> in its original place, move the center brake line hole up and forward,
>and
>> the bottom hole up and back. The net result raised the fuel line hole
>about
>> 1/2 inch which is just right.
>
>Albert,
>
>This is where I am at right now. I assume you are talking about the
>brackets that mount on the fore side of the center section. There are
>four
>of these, one large one small; left and right. Did you have to change
>the
>holes in all four?
>
>--Dale
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
Hi Everyone;
I am about to mount my vertical stabilizer & the plans call for an
offset to the left. I assume this is because they assume that I will be
using a right hand prop. I plan to use the RWS redrive, which has a left
hand drive. I assume that I should make the VS offset to the right instead?
I am considering mounting it with no offset in case I end up with a
different redrive that has a right hand prop.( I have no reason not to use
Tracy's drive, but just want to keep options open). Can I achieve the same
affect by using a trim tab on the rudder, or is this too inefficient? Or
should I just remount the VS with opposite offset if I ever change prop
direction? Changing the mount wouldn't be hard, but changing the empennage
fairing would be a real pain in the ***.
S. Todd Bartrim
13B RV-9
C-FSTB (reserved)
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
rv6-list(at)matronics.com, rv7-list(at)matronics.com, rv8-list(at)matronics.com,
rv9-list(at)matronics.com, rvcanada-list(at)matronics.com,
rveurope-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Van's Homecoming 2001 - A Photo Journal! |
Hi RV Listers!
Well, just back from Van's Homecoming BBQ and Fly-in up at the Aurora
Airport and in a word, wow. Below is a URL link to a web page I did on
the photos I took over the two days. There are multi-resolutions and
preview thumbnails for easy viewing.
http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/VansHomeComing2001/
Have a look and feel free to download any you'd like to keep or make
your screen backdrops.
If you haven't gone to a Homecoming before, or even if you have, I
highly recommend the trip. Very inspirational.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Finish Kit - #1763 - N442RV
Matronics EMail List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Running Fuel Lines |
In my case, I only moved the holes in the outer, smaller, bracket. That's
because it is so close to the landing gear bracket that it-used as is-forces
the fuel line against part of the bracket. I see Kevin Shannon replied with
a different solution, interchange the holes for the brake and fuel lines.
It looks to me that any solution that moves the fuel line enough to miss the
gear bracket is OK. I can't wait to see what it's like to bolt the wings
on!
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on cabin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
Hey Wire, that would be a real good question for Vans. Unless someone
here has already asked them, you really want this answer from the source.
...that's my 2 cents anyway.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Haywire <haywire(at)telus.net>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 2:36 PM
Subject: RV9-List: VS offset
>
> Hi Everyone;
> I am about to mount my vertical stabilizer & the plans call for an
> offset to the left. I assume this is because they assume that I will be
> using a right hand prop. I plan to use the RWS redrive, which has a left
> hand drive. I assume that I should make the VS offset to the right instead?
> I am considering mounting it with no offset in case I end up with a
> different redrive that has a right hand prop.( I have no reason not to use
> Tracy's drive, but just want to keep options open). Can I achieve the same
> affect by using a trim tab on the rudder, or is this too inefficient? Or
> should I just remount the VS with opposite offset if I ever change prop
> direction? Changing the mount wouldn't be hard, but changing the empennage
> fairing would be a real pain in the ***.
> S. Todd Bartrim
> 13B RV-9
> C-FSTB (reserved)
> Fuselage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Bottom Question |
Here is the answer to my own Rudder Bottom (R-911) question: The Rudder
Bottom goes over the Attach Strips, Horn Brace and front spar. Trim the
Rudder Bottom to within 1/16" of the molded-in scribe marks and finish-fit
with sandpaper. The final fit was pretty good. A Dremel Tool
fiberglass-reinforced cutoff wheel worked well for the cut. The final fit
was fairly good. This rudder bottom design is unique to the RV9.
Leland in Pleasanton
# 90334, anticipating a December QuickBuild kit delivery
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Side skins and longerons |
I am at the point on the fuselage where I am to drill thru the skins
into the longeron aft of F-904. My question is do I remove the longeron
after drilling and mach. countersink the holes or do I M/C thru the
skins ? In the next step you are to drill the remaining holes (forward
of F-904) thru the skin and into the longeron. Assuming all
measurements and angles are correct couldn't all these holes be drilled
at once then the long. removed countersunk and primered in one step?
It appears one needs to do a lot of reading between the lines to get
thru the fuse. section!!
Gene Park 90296 Fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Side skins and longerons |
Hi Gene,
I dimpled the skins and machine countersunk the longerons. I think all the
holes could be drilled at once as you suggest. I don't really remember if I
did it that way.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
working on hangar
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Side skins and longerons
I am at the point on the fuselage where I am to drill thru the skins
into the longeron aft of F-904. My question is do I remove the longeron
after drilling and mach. countersink the holes or do I M/C thru the
skins ? In the next step you are to drill the remaining holes (forward
of F-904) thru the skin and into the longeron. Assuming all
measurements and angles are correct couldn't all these holes be drilled
at once then the long. removed countersunk and primered in one step?
It appears one needs to do a lot of reading between the lines to get
thru the fuse. section!!
Gene Park 90296 Fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Side skins and longerons |
Gene, I agree with you whole heartedly about reading between the lines.
I am still uncomfortable with 2 of Van's tech people saying, 'forget
what the manual says, wait till you mount the wing, to position the
f-9101,f-996a,b,c in drawing 23 iso and side views. The manual says to
do it on page 9, paragraph 4 from the top. It (the manual) again reminds
you to do it on page 10, where is says, "tasks that must be completed
before the skin goes on". "Rivet the f-9101 geqar attach web to the 902
bulkhead, as shown on drawing 23 gg." When I called tech, 2 different
tech people told me to wait till the wings are mounted, see where the
f-996a fuel attach bracket falls, then position the rest of it and
drill, etc. This makes me very antsy to see it in print twice and told
to ignore it twice by tech. What did you guys do?
Barry RV9a fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Side skins and longerons |
>
> I am at the point on the fuselage where I am to drill thru the skins
> into the longeron aft of F-904. My question is do I remove the longeron
> after drilling and mach. countersink the holes or do I M/C thru the
> skins ?
Gene,
You must remove the longerons and countersink them and dimple the skins.
Even though the top skins will overlap the lower, the skins are too thin for
a machine countersink.
Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Side skins and longerons |
> Gene, I agree with you whole heartedly about reading between the lines.
I too agree that the fuse instructions are not as detailed as you find with
the empannage and wing. It seems that they were put together quickly.
I remember the instructions had you make some gussets and set them aside.
They sat on my bench for weeks with no hint from the instructions when or
where to install them. I finally got nervous and looked them up in the
drawing and installed them.
You have to think ahead and watch the drawings carefully.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ivo welch <ivo.welch(at)yale.edu> |
Hi: What kind of optimal speeds (well, 160hp motor) have people come up
with? Gliding, Vne, Vs0, Vs1, Vx, Vy, Vno, etc.
/iaw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Thanks for the suggestions on countersinking the longerons. Next
question. I am to the point where I have added the forward fuse, and am
taking the prescribed break! Is there any reason that I can not rivet
the F-976 skin, F-706 bulkhead and the F-778 skin together at this time
? I have a feeling that this is what is intended but it is not stated.
Also from this point on there appears to be a lot of work done "upside
down" until you are told to roll over the canoe, tell me this isn't
so!!
Gene Park 90296 fuse (getting shorter)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
Yeah, this is the point where I riveted them together. Don't forget to
drill & dimple the second row of rivets first. Best to drill the second row
on the side skins now as well.
Yup, you have to work on it upside down, but don't worry it's not a problem
(except that it's upside down to the plans -- maybe flip over the plans...
LOL) It goes pretty fast now.
As a side note to anyone about to do their seat backs..... the plans call
for F-637B to be 26 3/8" long. I believe this should read 26 3/4" long. I
cut the first set as per plans and was unhappy with the result. There is
enough angle that I redid them as the remaining angle pieces are short
enough to make out of the too short set. You might want to check the length
of the F-637A before cutting the F-637B.
S. Todd Bartrim
13B RV-9
C-FSTB (reserved)
Fuselage
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: September 6, 2001 8:49 PM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: More questions
>
>
> Thanks for the suggestions on countersinking the longerons. Next
> question. I am to the point where I have added the forward fuse, and am
> taking the prescribed break! Is there any reason that I can not rivet
> the F-976 skin, F-706 bulkhead and the F-778 skin together at this time
> ? I have a feeling that this is what is intended but it is not stated.
> Also from this point on there appears to be a lot of work done "upside
> down" until you are told to roll over the canoe, tell me this isn't
> so!!
>
> Gene Park 90296 fuse (getting shorter)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 9/6/2001 11:52:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rv9-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Hi: What kind of optimal speeds (well, 160hp motor) have people come up
> with? Gliding, Vne, Vs0, Vs1, Vx, Vy, Vno, etc.
>
>
Remember these speeds are good at only at that condition ie weight, density
altitude and so on. AOA will be correct at all weights and so on except for
angle of climb Vx which the AOA varies and Never Exceed Vne which is a
constant airspeed limitation.
Elbie Mendenhall
Fly the safe angle with the RiteAngle!
Thanks to all of you who visited our booths at Sun n Fun, Arlington &
AirVenture the acceptance of the RiteAngle III has been an overwhelming
success! We will continue to give the best in Customer Service possible.
As with any product designed to work well on so many aircraft there will
always be questions, please let me know if you have any specific questions
which aren't answered on the website. There are well over 400 makes & models
of homebuilts out there now!
Elbie H. Mendenhall
President, EM aviation LLC
13411 NE Prairie Rd
Brush Prairie WA 98606 USA
Phone & Fax 360-260-0772
www.riteangle.com
EAA 38308
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Backriveting 9A elevator skins |
Tod - I was delighted to find your mail of 4/30 regarding the elevator skins
since it covers most of the issues in the days ahead.
My question is this. If you were doing the elevator again would you bother
with 'mixed' rivets on the lower surface or just dimple for the flush pop
rivets? What is the disadvantage? They must be strong enough and I think
will look OK though I have not yet used them. One other question do we
dimple or c'sink the spar? The instructions 'gave out' when I got to the
elevator!
Thanks, Steve.
RV9a #90360
N Yorkshire, England
Working on the elevator.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
>
> Hello Mark,
>
> I back riveted the top elevator skins to elevator spar and did not have
any
> trouble with opening the skins too far. I was concerned about using the
> standard backrivet set and not being able to keep it square with the rivet
> due to the C channel shape of the spar. So I ordered the long Avery angled
> backrivet set, It's about 8 inches long and has a slight angle at the end
> (no spring loaded collar though). I used the long 3x3 angle bolted to my
> bench for a backrivet plate (same as I use for the trailing edges).
>
> One word of advice that for the bottom skin to spar rivets . . . make sure
> you have the correct size holes and dimples for the flush pop rivets! I
> drilled and dimpled everything for 3/32" rivets thinking that I would
> squeeze all the rivets I could reach and then use pop rivets for the rest.
> With a 4" yoke I could squeeze quite a few through the hinge openeings in
> the skins. However, I then realized that the pop -rivets are 1/8" not
3/32"!
> I drilled out the holes, but did not have a way to make the 1/8" dimples
(I
> had already riveted most of the skin to spar). So my flush rivets didn't
sit
> exactly flush! If your going to use all pop-rivets then you'll probably
> figure out the holes and dimples are too small while you can still do
> something about it. However, if your going to squeeze some of the rivets,
> then make sure you plan for the larger pop-rivets for the rest of the
holes.
>
> Good Luck,
> Todd Houg
> N194TH
> Tanks . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Schrimmer [mailto:mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:27 AM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
>
>
> I'm about to rivet my right elevator skin to the spar and I'm thinking it
> might be better to back rivet instead of using a bucking bar since you
won't
> be able to see the bucking bar while you're riveting.
>
> Has anybody else used back riveting here? Did you have any problems using
> this technique? I'm a little worried that I might damage the skins opening
> them wide enough to back rivet.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: "Oil Canning" in Vertical Stab |
Frank _ My rudder is at about the point you were when you wrote this and
I have the same problem. I have had to put it on one side while I await
some MK-319-bs rivets. Did you solve it?
I asked Gus and he said:
2. Can I get rid
> of it? How?
Probably not, you can try bending the flanges of the end ribs a
little.
3. What did I do wrong.
Probably nothing. If you look at the surfaces on the company
airplanes there is some oil canning on a lot of them. Our proto
shop guys can't eliminate it either it seems. The only thing you can
do is keep it as flat as possible while drilling and riveting the
stiffeners.
I am still hoping it will reduce when I rivet the dreaded trailing edge.
How many MK-319-BS did you have to use top and bottom?
Steve.
RV9 #90360
Working on the elevator.
North Yorkshire, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Lanier" <flanier(at)microsoft.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: RV9-List: "Oil Canning" in Vertical Stab
>
> I have just drilled the VS skin to the skeleton and noticed quite a
bit
> of "oil canning" in the area between the 407 and 404 ribs. Further,
I've
> noticed one side is worse with it than the other. I've plumbed the
> leading edge, and while it's not perfect, it's not to far off. I'm
> wondering if this is normal or do I have a problem here. The HS came
> out very tight and straight, so I'm using this as a reference for skin
> tightness.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Frank
>
> RV-9a Vertical Stab
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | Backriveting 9A elevator skins |
Hello Steve,
My main goal was to minimize the use of pop rivets. Would I do it again?
Well, that's debatable. They are definitely in an inconspicuous spot, and
the pop rivets are obviously strong enough for Van's. The disadvantage is
that you need to keep track of the two different hole and dimple sizes
unless you use the smaller headed pop-rivets, but I'm not sure if these are
as strong. The one thing I would definitely do is make sure the dimples are
the correct size. The only thing uglier than a countersunk pop rivet, is a
countersunk pop rivet that isn't countersunk far enough!
As for the spar, I don't recall for sure, but I believe I countersunk the
spar.
Todd Houg
ailerons and flaps - still
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Sampson [mailto:SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
Tod - I was delighted to find your mail of 4/30 regarding the elevator skins
since it covers most of the issues in the days ahead.
My question is this. If you were doing the elevator again would you bother
with 'mixed' rivets on the lower surface or just dimple for the flush pop
rivets? What is the disadvantage? They must be strong enough and I think
will look OK though I have not yet used them. One other question do we
dimple or c'sink the spar? The instructions 'gave out' when I got to the
elevator!
Thanks, Steve.
RV9a #90360
N Yorkshire, England
Working on the elevator.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
>
> Hello Mark,
>
> I back riveted the top elevator skins to elevator spar and did not have
any
> trouble with opening the skins too far. I was concerned about using the
> standard backrivet set and not being able to keep it square with the rivet
> due to the C channel shape of the spar. So I ordered the long Avery angled
> backrivet set, It's about 8 inches long and has a slight angle at the end
> (no spring loaded collar though). I used the long 3x3 angle bolted to my
> bench for a backrivet plate (same as I use for the trailing edges).
>
> One word of advice that for the bottom skin to spar rivets . . . make sure
> you have the correct size holes and dimples for the flush pop rivets! I
> drilled and dimpled everything for 3/32" rivets thinking that I would
> squeeze all the rivets I could reach and then use pop rivets for the rest.
> With a 4" yoke I could squeeze quite a few through the hinge openeings in
> the skins. However, I then realized that the pop -rivets are 1/8" not
3/32"!
> I drilled out the holes, but did not have a way to make the 1/8" dimples
(I
> had already riveted most of the skin to spar). So my flush rivets didn't
sit
> exactly flush! If your going to use all pop-rivets then you'll probably
> figure out the holes and dimples are too small while you can still do
> something about it. However, if your going to squeeze some of the rivets,
> then make sure you plan for the larger pop-rivets for the rest of the
holes.
>
> Good Luck,
> Todd Houg
> N194TH
> Tanks . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Schrimmer [mailto:mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:27 AM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
>
>
> I'm about to rivet my right elevator skin to the spar and I'm thinking it
> might be better to back rivet instead of using a bucking bar since you
won't
> be able to see the bucking bar while you're riveting.
>
> Has anybody else used back riveting here? Did you have any problems using
> this technique? I'm a little worried that I might damage the skins opening
> them wide enough to back rivet.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | An interesting tidbit |
I just heard that Van uses the RV-9 demonstrator as his commute plane. I
suppose that its incredibly short takeoff and landing distances give an
extra safety margin on the short strip at his home.
Leland
90334
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Backriveting 9A elevator skins |
Thread-Topic: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
Thread-Index: AcE32FoVjJJZdzXITlWkBUFBjq06PgAAIIxw
| From: | "Frank Lanier" <flanier(at)microsoft.com> |
Steve,
Steve,
I just finished the right elevator the other day. I followed the plans
exact and used the 1/8 inch pop rivets on the bottom (remembering to
drill and dimple for the #30 sized rivets). Also, I dimpled the spar.
It turned out just fine.
The only problem I had, once again, is oil canning. This seems to be my
personal demon in building this plane. The oil canning is not horrible,
but annoying as heck. Anyone have advise as to how to minimize it?
-----Original Message-----
From: tchoug [mailto:tchoug(at)micron.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
Hello Steve,
My main goal was to minimize the use of pop rivets. Would I do it again?
Well, that's debatable. They are definitely in an inconspicuous spot,
and
the pop rivets are obviously strong enough for Van's. The disadvantage
is
that you need to keep track of the two different hole and dimple sizes
unless you use the smaller headed pop-rivets, but I'm not sure if these
are
as strong. The one thing I would definitely do is make sure the dimples
are
the correct size. The only thing uglier than a countersunk pop rivet, is
a
countersunk pop rivet that isn't countersunk far enough!
As for the spar, I don't recall for sure, but I believe I countersunk
the
spar.
Todd Houg
ailerons and flaps - still
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Sampson [mailto:SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
Tod - I was delighted to find your mail of 4/30 regarding the elevator
skins
since it covers most of the issues in the days ahead.
My question is this. If you were doing the elevator again would you
bother
with 'mixed' rivets on the lower surface or just dimple for the flush
pop
rivets? What is the disadvantage? They must be strong enough and I think
will look OK though I have not yet used them. One other question do we
dimple or c'sink the spar? The instructions 'gave out' when I got to the
elevator!
Thanks, Steve.
RV9a #90360
N Yorkshire, England
Working on the elevator.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Backriveting 9A elevator skins
>
> Hello Mark,
>
> I back riveted the top elevator skins to elevator spar and did not
have
any
> trouble with opening the skins too far. I was concerned about using
the
> standard backrivet set and not being able to keep it square with the
rivet
> due to the C channel shape of the spar. So I ordered the long Avery
angled
> backrivet set, It's about 8 inches long and has a slight angle at the
end
> (no spring loaded collar though). I used the long 3x3 angle bolted to
my
> bench for a backrivet plate (same as I use for the trailing edges).
>
> One word of advice that for the bottom skin to spar rivets . . . make
sure
> you have the correct size holes and dimples for the flush pop rivets!
I
> drilled and dimpled everything for 3/32" rivets thinking that I would
> squeeze all the rivets I could reach and then use pop rivets for the
rest.
> With a 4" yoke I could squeeze quite a few through the hinge openeings
in
> the skins. However, I then realized that the pop -rivets are 1/8" not
3/32"!
> I drilled out the holes, but did not have a way to make the 1/8"
dimples
(I
> had already riveted most of the skin to spar). So my flush rivets
didn't
sit
> exactly flush! If your going to use all pop-rivets then you'll
probably
> figure out the holes and dimples are too small while you can still do
> something about it. However, if your going to squeeze some of the
rivets,
> then make sure you plan for the larger pop-rivets for the rest of the
holes.
>
April 01, 2001 - September 07, 2001
RV9-Archive.digest.vol-ab