RV9-Archive.digest.vol-ag
August 05, 2002 - October 18, 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
on 8/5/02 2:54 PM, Paulbaird(at)aol.com at Paulbaird(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Roger and Mike,
> Sorry I can't help you, we used a hartzell constant speed. Works
> great!!!!
> Takeoff and climb performance is really amazing!
> Paul
> flying RV-9A
>
Paul,
Do you have a web site or any digital photos of your plane?
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A Wings
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnCClarkVA(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Alignment |
Each side is not flat. There is a slight twist to each surface. If the spar
is placed on a flat surface and the TE is pushed flat to the surface, you
take the twist out of the bottom side and increase it on the top, thus the
potential for oil-canning or possible mis-aligned holes (assuming that is the
problem, I am not trying to rule out a misdrilled part).
If you place the rudder on a flat table where the spar is flat and the TE at
the tip is on the table, the TE at the root will be about 0.15 inches off the
table (that is the number I remember). If you flip the rudder over, same
thing happens, the TE at the root again will be about 0.15 inches off the
table.
Long story short - there are two tapers to consider. The taper of the spar
web and the taper between the spar the the TE. Imagine extending the rudder
until each taper became a point. If both tapers play out at the same point,
you would have flat surfaces on both sides. In this case, each taper would
end at a different point.
The geometry is relatively simple but hard to explain on an e-mail. I can't
use my hands. We can set up a telecon if it would be helpful. My hands work
better on the phone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | New RV9A pictures |
Well now that I'm back from Oshkosh, I posted up the pictures I took of William
Duffy's RV9A. His was the only customer completed example that I saw at Oshkosh
this year.
http://www.karmy.com/rv9a/rv%20pictures/rv9_pictures.htm
--
Andy Karmy
andy(at)karmy.com
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Brandes <mbrandes(at)irr.com> |
| Subject: | TIP: Riveting the HS Nose Ribs |
(For the record)
My wife and I riveted in the HS nose ribs on one side of the HS and ended up
with a horrible depression in the skin on the top side along the rivet line.
(Why couldn't it have been the bottom.) After doing some reading online it
appears to be a fairly common problem and I resolved not to let it happen
again on the other side.
Here's what we did last night and ended up with a beautiful right side skin.
(I only hope your reading this BEFORE you start riveting!)
Quite honestly, the key is to spend a little time ensuring the rib matches
the shape of the skin. I think we get so used to things lining up dead on,
that we don't pay attention to well. (Ok.. maybe just me.)
1) Flute and prep as normal, making sure the holes are all in a straight
line.
2) Place the skin in the blocks and cleco in the inboard and outboard nose
ribs.
3) Put in the center nose rib and secure it with a couple of cleco's towards
the aft edge of the skin. (Don't put any in toward the leading edge.)
4) Relocate the blocks to be just on either side of the center nose rib...
maybe 4". (Be careful, it's like a see-saw now and will tip easily.)
5) Push the skin down into the blocks forcing the skin to squeeze
together... but don't bottom it out... just so it is real snug.
6) Now you can look in the end of the HS down into the center so that you
can see how the rib fits the shape of the skin. The rib needs to be flush
(or nearly so) with the skin WITHOUT cleco's pulling it towards the skin.
(If there is a gap, the cleco will pull the flange to the skin.. but the
rivet won't, so it needs to site flush without a cleco holding it.) Remove
the rib and adjust as necessary. (There was some suggestion on the list
that you could run the outside of the rib flange on a belt sander to take
out all of the high spots. I didn't have to do this but I can see where
this has merit.)
7) Repeat steps 3-6 until the rib sits flush against the inside of the skin.
(You should also do this for the other two nose ribs.)
8) Place the ribs in the skin and cleco every hole, except the first one on
the leading edge. Get a bucking partner!! I don't recommend trying this by
yourself at all.
9) Time to rivet! I'm not sure if the order matters, but I riveted the
outboard nose rib first, then moved to the center
rib and finished with the inboard. TIP: RIVET THE TOP SIDE OF THE SKIN
FIRST, then the bottom side. IF you end up with some pillowing/depression,
it will be on the bottom by doing it this way. (On of the reasons you get
this pillowing is that the skin gets pulled to the rib, instead of the rib
being pulled to the skin, particularly once the other side is already
fastened in place.) We also laid the HS on it's side (in the flying
position) so that the riveter has easier access. This portion of the skin
isn't flat so it is easy for the rivet set to slide around. I used the head
off my Avery squeezer as a bucking bar for the first couple of rivets. The
person operating the rivet gun needs to apply firm pressure but so much as
to distort the skin. We riveted one side starting at the leading edge and
going back, then flipped it over and riveted the other. Came out looking
great.
This is how we did it.. your mileage may vary. FWIW, I saw a post about
splitting the rib in half and turning it into more of a stiffener then a
rib. I asked Van's about this.. here was Gus Funnell's response: "I
wouldn't split the HS ribs. The issue is not a depression in the center
(after all the ribs are identical), but a bulging of the skins either side
of center. The bulge doesn't matter but the increased flexibility of the HS
would be bad. "
Good luck!
Matthew
RV-9A Empennage
N523RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
I have not been able to find a measurement of how the stick should be alinged when
the elevator's are level in trail. I though it should be straight up, but
that seems to not match the pushrod lengths as called out in the plans. Then there's
a side view drawing of the controls that seems to indicate about 15-20deg
forward stick for the neutral point.
How about it? What did you do?
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle, WA
Canopy fitting...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: William Duffy's RV9A |
Opps, sorry I forgot to post that info...
Yes I listened to some info from him while he was unpacking the plane after first
getting there.
The plane had 27.5 hours on it. with 2.7 being the flight to Oshkosh! (he flew
the 25 hours off just the day before).
It's an 160hp 0-320 with Sen FP metal prop. He listed cruise as 156+ kts, but did
not indicate what RPM or MP that was at. He didn't have the intersection flairings
built for the top of the gear legs yet.
He said that all of his flying time was in 172's and warriers and this baby was
a dream compared to them! He said if you were doing touch and go's in the pattern
that you had better start pulling back the throttle just as you start climbing
after takeoff or you'll overspeed and outclimb the pattern in a hurry! Ya
baby.... :)
That was all I heard. I didn't get a chance to talk building with him.
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Bob Hassel" <bob@hassel-usa.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:24:39 -0500
>Hi Andy,
>
>Did you get a chance to meet Duffy and find out anything about his 9?
>Engine, cruise, etc?
>
>Bob
>
>
>Bob Hassel
>Email: bob @ hassel-usa.com
>URL: http://www.hassel-usa.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Sensenich Spinner |
Here's a heads-up for any of you that might be thinking of switching from
the Van's glass spinner to Sensenich's metal one as I just did. The rear
spinner plate on Van's is flat but on Sensesich's it is sort of dished
so that the spinner will be 3/4" closer to the engine compared with Van's.
I fitted my cowl using Van's and now have a clearance problem. A serious
clearance problem.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on firewall forward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Stick position? WD-610 / f-916 interaction |
Andy - a related point. How far forward does your stick go? Not far beyond
the vertical the WD-610 catches on the seat ribs. It's a QB so I did not cut
the holes in the F-916 but they seem to be correct. I cant see where else
there could be an 'error'. Did you / anyone else have this problem?
With regard to your query I think Drwg 32 is correct but exactly what the
angle is I am not sure. It looks like the 'stub' below the stick is
vertical.
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Karmy
Subject: RV9-List: Stick position?
I have not been able to find a measurement of how the stick should be
alinged when the elevator's are level in trail. I though it should be
straight up, but that seems to not match the pushrod lengths as called out
in the plans. Then there's a side view drawing of the controls that seems to
indicate about 15-20deg forward stick for the neutral point.
How about it? What did you do?
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle, WA
Canopy fitting...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Stick position? WD-610 / f-916 interaction |
08/09/2002 08:10:24 PM,
Serialize complete at 08/09/2002 08:10:24 PM
Steve,
If the stick is hitting the top of the lightening hole before the
elevator hits the stop, you need to adjust one or the other of the push
rods or both until it hits the stop first. If you need additional room
like some of us who have "middle age spread" or a big gut, you may have
to relieve the seat ribs so the stick can go far enough to hit the
elevator stops.
Regards
Larry Perryman
"Steve Sampson"
Sent by: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
08/09/2002 03:07 AM
Please respond to rv9-list
To:
cc:
Subject: RE: RV9-List: Stick position? WD-610 / f-916
interaction
Andy - a related point. How far forward does your stick go? Not far
beyond
the vertical the WD-610 catches on the seat ribs. It's a QB so I did not
cut
the holes in the F-916 but they seem to be correct. I cant see where
else
there could be an 'error'. Did you / anyone else have this problem?
With regard to your query I think Drwg 32 is correct but exactly what
the
angle is I am not sure. It looks like the 'stub' below the stick is
vertical.
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Karmy
Subject: RV9-List: Stick position?
I have not been able to find a measurement of how the stick should be
alinged when the elevator's are level in trail. I though it should be
straight up, but that seems to not match the pushrod lengths as called
out
in the plans. Then there's a side view drawing of the controls that
seems to
indicate about 15-20deg forward stick for the neutral point.
How about it? What did you do?
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle, WA
Canopy fitting...
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Sensenich Spinner UPDATE |
Well now, (blush), If you put things together the way they're supposed to
go, it seems to works perfectly. Ed Zercher from Sensenich got ahold of me
and said that Van's backplate faces the opposite way that Sensenich's does
and it only looked like there was a problem. At his suggestion I put the
cowl on and everything looks perfect. Nice looking spinner with no trimming
or fitting to do either. BTW, my conversation with Ed at Sensenich leads me
to believe that these guys would go to any length to resolve problems. Ed
said that if I had indeed had a real problem, they could have produced a
custom length prop extension to resolve it. I love building this aircraft.
Working with aircraft people brightens up my days.
Albert (no cowl problems) Gardner
----- Original Message -----
> Here's a heads-up for any of you that might be thinking of switching from
> the Van's glass spinner to Sensenich's metal one as I just did. The rear
> spinner plate on Van's is flat but on Sensesich's it is sort of dished
> so that the spinner will be 3/4" closer to the engine compared with Van's.
> I fitted my cowl using Van's and now have a clearance problem.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensenich Spinner UPDATE |
Speaking of props. Can anyone compare the perceived vibrations/smoothness of
this metal prop compared to a good wood model. The reason I ask is comments
made by Van to the effect that if you switch to a metal prop after having a
wood model it makes you want to land right away thinking you have a really
bad vibration. ....
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Sensenich Spinner UPDATE
>
> Well now, (blush), If you put things together the way they're supposed to
> go, it seems to works perfectly. Ed Zercher from Sensenich got ahold of
me
> and said that Van's backplate faces the opposite way that Sensenich's does
> and it only looked like there was a problem. At his suggestion I put the
> cowl on and everything looks perfect. Nice looking spinner with no
trimming
> or fitting to do either. BTW, my conversation with Ed at Sensenich leads
me
> to believe that these guys would go to any length to resolve problems. Ed
> said that if I had indeed had a real problem, they could have produced a
> custom length prop extension to resolve it. I love building this
aircraft.
> Working with aircraft people brightens up my days.
> Albert (no cowl problems) Gardner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Here's a heads-up for any of you that might be thinking of switching
from
> > the Van's glass spinner to Sensenich's metal one as I just did. The
rear
> > spinner plate on Van's is flat but on Sensesich's it is sort of dished
> > so that the spinner will be 3/4" closer to the engine compared with
Van's.
> > I fitted my cowl using Van's and now have a clearance problem.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensenich Spinner UPDATE |
on 8/9/02 11:20 AM, Albert Gardner at albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>
> Well now, (blush), If you put things together the way they're supposed to
> go, it seems to works perfectly. Ed Zercher from Sensenich got ahold of me
> and said that Van's backplate faces the opposite way that Sensenich's does
> and it only looked like there was a problem.
Albert,
If you're going to use the Sensenich spinner, what parts should you have
Van's delete from the finish kit--just the spinner and backplate, or are
there some other parts, too?
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensenich Spinner UPDATE |
Mark-there is also a front plate that you won't need. I'm really happy with
the appearance of the Sensenich spinner as well as the way it is put
together. The cutouts will fit the prop very closely and I won't have to
do the work of truing it up and gluing it together.
Albert
----- Original Message -----
> Albert,
> If you're going to use the Sensenich spinner, what parts should you have
> Van's delete from the finish kit--just the spinner and backplate, or are
> there some other parts, too?
> Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Sensenich Spinner |
I just went throught the same thing with my RV6. One thing I'd like to
point out is that at first appearance it would seem that the backwards
facing plate from sensenich is 3/4" different than Van's, but in fact that
is not the case. The backplate from Sensenich is dished to compensate for
the forward facing flange. That being said, if you fit your spinner close
to the cowl as I did, you'll still run into problems. After taking both
plates and measuring them closely, the difference is more like 3/32" of an
inch and not 3/4". This still resulted in me cutting off the nose of my
cowl and moving it back 1/8", but now it fits perfectly!
IMHO, the metal spinner is a work of art. The cutouts are perfect, etc..
One warning, don't run your engine with the spinner off (don't ask me how I
know). The tabs have a way of bending themselves all out of wack without a
spinner to hold them in!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6, Minneapolis.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Subject: RV9-List: Sensenich Spinner
Here's a heads-up for any of you that might be thinking of switching from
the Van's glass spinner to Sensenich's metal one as I just did. The rear
spinner plate on Van's is flat but on Sensesich's it is sort of dished
so that the spinner will be 3/4" closer to the engine compared with Van's.
I fitted my cowl using Van's and now have a clearance problem. A serious
clearance problem.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
Working on firewall forward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Heads-up on the Orientation of the AN4-27 Control Stick Pivot |
Bolt
If you orient the AN4-27 Control Stick Pivot Bolts so the Castle Nut is
facing the rear of the plane, (as it shows in DWG 34, Detail B) the bolt end
will interfere with the rear edge of the Control Stick Cut-outs in the Left
and Right Forward Seat Floor Panels.
I discovered this after I did the final installation of the Control
Column/Stick Assembly and then placed the Forward Seat Floor Panels in
position. (Until then, I had not installed everything at the same time.)
The entire Control Assembly has to be removed to reverse these bolts.
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads-up on the Orientation of the AN4-27 Control Stick |
Pivot Bolt
After taking this assembly apart several times for this and other reasons, I
modified the next rib outboard so that I could unbolt the entire assy from
the spar and left it out in one piece. Works very well.
Albert Gardner
RV-9A: N872RV (Reserved)
----- Original Message -----
> If you orient the AN4-27 Control Stick Pivot Bolts so the Castle Nut is
> facing the rear of the plane, (as it shows in DWG 34, Detail B) the bolt
end
> will interfere with the rear edge of the Control Stick Cut-outs in the
Left
> and Right Forward Seat Floor Panels.
> I discovered this after I did the final installation of the Control
> Column/Stick Assembly and then placed the Forward Seat Floor Panels in
> position. (Until then, I had not installed everything at the same time.)
> The entire Control Assembly has to be removed to reverse these bolts.
> Dave
> 90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
I don't care what they say. I just finished riveting my third rib and I
can't say I like this part of the work. Very difficult to rivet the rib
by yourself (the first one I did) trying to keep the bucking bar and the
gun both straight. My wife reluctantly agreed to help on the next
two.Most went pretty well except I had to drill out one rivet. She may
have lifted the gun a little or I could have pushed a little too hard on
the bucking bar. In any case it set with the head sticking up. Drilling
out the rivet in Pro-seal is like drilling a hole in roofing cement. I
ended up having to put an oversize rivet in it. Hope it holds and
doesn't leak. It wasn't perfect but looked okay and I was afraid if I
drilled it out again I might as well put another drain valve in the
hole.
Now if there was only an option for quick build tanks only.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Riveting |
Curt,
One trick I learned building mine was to rivet the relatively flat sides of
each rib on first with the shin sitting on the tank cradle. Once you have
all of the flat side of the ribs done, slide the tank down into the cradle.
You should then be able to cleco the curved side to the skin and rivet them
down.
Don't put any proseal on the curved side until you are ready to rivet it in.
If the cradle is close to a rib, it will hold it in almost the perfect
position. Start clecoing from the nose and work to the back of the tank.
This was the only way I found it easy to get the ribs to match the skin. Try
it a few times without the proseal until it seems to work for you then go
for it. You may find some variation works better for you. If so go for it.
Regards
Larry Perryman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Riveting |
Curt,
I found using a Zip Lock Bag like a Cake Decorating Bag worked well for
controlling the goo.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Tank Riveting
>
> Curt,
>
> One trick I learned building mine was to rivet the relatively flat sides
of
> each rib on first with the shin sitting on the tank cradle. Once you have
> all of the flat side of the ribs done, slide the tank down into the
cradle.
> You should then be able to cleco the curved side to the skin and rivet
them
> down.
>
> Don't put any proseal on the curved side until you are ready to rivet it
in.
> If the cradle is close to a rib, it will hold it in almost the perfect
> position. Start clecoing from the nose and work to the back of the tank.
>
> This was the only way I found it easy to get the ribs to match the skin.
Try
> it a few times without the proseal until it seems to work for you then go
> for it. You may find some variation works better for you. If so go for it.
>
> Regards
> Larry Perryman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobpaulo(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Riveting |
Curt, I recall a few yrs. back of someone that offered that service. You may
want to call Vans or post a message on the list specifically for such. Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank Riveting |
Several builders of RV's constructed the tanks by using clecos instead of
rivets. After a coupla of days when the proseal has set up then you shoot
the rivets. I put a tiny dab of proseal in each hole before putting the
rivet in but it's a lot less messy and - no leaks on my tanks.
Albert Gardner RV-9A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Tank Riveting
>
> I don't care what they say. I just finished riveting my third rib and I
> can't say I like this part of the work. Very difficult to rivet the rib
> by yourself (the first one I did) trying to keep the bucking bar and the
> gun both straight. My wife reluctantly agreed to help on the next
> two.Most went pretty well except I had to drill out one rivet. She may
> have lifted the gun a little or I could have pushed a little too hard on
> the bucking bar. In any case it set with the head sticking up. Drilling
> out the rivet in Pro-seal is like drilling a hole in roofing cement. I
> ended up having to put an oversize rivet in it. Hope it holds and
> doesn't leak. It wasn't perfect but looked okay and I was afraid if I
> drilled it out again I might as well put another drain valve in the
> hole.
> Now if there was only an option for quick build tanks only.
>
> Curt Hoffman
> RV-9A wings
> 1968 Mustang 302 convertible
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
The TruTrak website lists the Digitrak on-sale price of $1495 whereas
Van's now carries the unit and lists it for $300 more. I called TruTrak
and was told that both units include an installation kit and that there
are no other bells and whistles or options excepts for the GPS RS232
output required for tracking. The TruTrak-direct price will increase
$300 on September 1st.
Leland
Trying to make decisions in P-Town
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
Leland,
I was originally planning on installing a Navaid autopilot because it was
the ONLY option available for under $2000. When the Trutrak line came out I
was intrigued and impressed, but they were still close to $3000. When the
Digitrak came out it really peaked my interest. I first saw it at the
Minnesota RV forum and talked with Jim Younkin there as well as listened to
his presentation. I was impressed with the unit and his credentials when it
comes to autopilot design. If your an AOPA subscriber, there was a short
biography on him on the last page of the latest AOPA Pilot magazine.
By the time Oshkosh came around, I had decided that the Digitrak was the
right autopilot for me an I went ahead and purchased the unit. Actually I
paid 2/3's of the cost and just got the servo and installation kit. For
$1000 I locked in the $1495 price and within a week from Oshkosh had the
servo and installation hardware in hand. I can then pay the additional $495
when I'm ready for the control unit.
I've just recently installed the servo and I am in the process of updating
my web site with installation details. I haven't posted the web pages yet,
but I will try and post them tonight at http://www.toddhoug.com. The
installation was simple and straight forward, you can read the details when
I get the web site updated.
The fundamental difference between the Navaid and the Digitrak is that the
Navaid tracks based on cross track error (provided by NAV or GPS) and the
Digitrak tracks based on heading (provided by GPS or internal magnetometer).
Thus the Navaid makes it's corrections based on a track error signal
provided by a NAV, panel mount GPS or handheld GPS using the smartcoupler to
convert the GPS data stream to a cross track error signal. The Digitrak uses
the raw GPS coordinate information and/or internal magnetometer to follow a
selected heading. They both also use gyroscopic information to detect turn
rates which are used to make immediate corrections for errors introduced by
turbulence and just fine tuning the course. The Navaid uses a mechanical
gyro with limited lifetime and the Digitrak uses solid state rate gyros
which should last forever (theoretically).
You are correct, the Digitrak doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles, but
it's elegant simplicity is a feature in itself! It does not have the visible
turn coordinator functionality the Navaid does. It also does not track
to/from a waypoint as the Navaid does in its TK (track mode). However it
does fly a GPS slaved heading. You set the heading, and it flys that GPS
course over the ground referencing the GPS coordinates and it's internal
digital rate gyros, regardless of winds. The difference is mostly in
semantics. With the Navaid you program your waypoints/route in your GPS, fly
a shallow intercept to the track until it locks on then it will fly you to
the waypoint. With the Trutrak, you program it with the GPS heading to your
waypoint and it flys you there.
The Digitrak also has a magnetic course mode that it relies on when the GPS
signal is not available. I would some what equate this to the wing leveler
(WL) mode of the Navaid, but technically they are very different. In the
wing leveler mode, the Navaid uses it's mechanical gyro to detect the turn
rate and corrects by moving the ailerons to prevent the aircraft from
turning and thus keep the wings level. It has no clue about heading, ground
track, wind correction or anything else; it just keeps the turn coordinator
from indicating a turn. In this mode, the Navaid can (and does) drift off
course and off track which requires occasional heading corrections from the
pilot. On the other hand, the Digitrak uses it's internal magnetometer (when
GPS information is unavailable) in conjunction with it's solid state gyros
to follow a consistent magnetic heading. In this mode it tries to fly a
course that maintains the same magnetic heading. Thus, the Digitrack should
not drift off your heading like the Navaid, but may drift off your desired
track due to wind.
As a side note, the Digitrack has an interesting way of self calibrating
it's internal magnetometer. You fly to an area clear of obstructions and
controlled airspace and then engage the autopilot on a 0 degree GPS heading.
Using the buttons on the control unit go into setup mode and activate the
calibration. It then fly the airplane on the 0 degree course and calibrates
it's magnetometer to the GPS course. It then turns on it's own to 90 degrees
and calibrates on that course. It does the same for each of 180 and 270
degrees, flying a square pattern and calibrating on each 90 degree heading
increment. Pretty ingenious!
IMO, the advantages of the Digitrack are:
- Solid state - no mechanical gyros to fail.
- Servo mounting hardware and pushrod included (model specific).
- Immedeately available - no long waits as some have experienced with
Navaid.
- Simple easy to use interface - just set the heading and you fly that
direction!
- Smaller, lighter and less panel space.
- Programmable servo torque and activity levels.
Navaid advantages:
- Turn coordinator and ball.
- Follows a GPS route (At least sometimes from what I hear).
- Can be used with NAV radio also.
Well, that's enough for now. Forgive me if I've misused the terms course,
heading and track. The correct usage can be elusive at times.
Todd Houg
N194TH - reserved
Literally in the middle of the fuselage floors.
-----Original Message-----
From: federigo(at)pacbell.net [mailto:federigo(at)pacbell.net]
Subject: RV9-List: TruTrak
The TruTrak website lists the Digitrak on-sale price of $1495 whereas
Van's now carries the unit and lists it for $300 more. I called TruTrak
and was told that both units include an installation kit and that there
are no other bells and whistles or options excepts for the GPS RS232
output required for tracking. The TruTrak-direct price will increase
$300 on September 1st.
Leland
Trying to make decisions in P-Town
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
"rv9-list(at)matronics.com"
| Subject: | Trutrak servo installation web site update |
Hello all,
I've made some updates to my website (yeah I know, it's long overdue). Anyway, I recently installed the Trutrak auto pilot servo in my unfinished wing. I've documented the installation on my web site for those that may be interested. You can find it at http://www.toddhoug.com - select the "Trutrak Auto Pilot" section from the menu on the left. Within the autopilot page, there's also a link to the Digitrak vs. Navaid basic throey of operation comparison.
Todd Houg
N194TH - reserved
Bought myself an engine toooo!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Brandes <mbrandes(at)irr.com> |
| Subject: | Elevetor Control Horn & Trim Tab Hinge |
I'm about to the point of drilling my elevator control horns. Alignment
(both the control horn-to-spar and with each other) appears to be critical.
I've gleaned through the list archives and found some good info but am
requesting any more tidbits of info anyone may have tucked in their brain.
I saw somewhere that to line up the control horn down the spar correctly use
a piece of long angle laid on the tube portion of the control horn. This
will allow you to at least come close to getting it lined up down the
center. I also saw a post about clamping the control horns together and
drilling both elevators at the same time.
Also, any tips on attaching the trim tab hinge? Plans and manual don't say
much about it. Doesn't look to hard and I didn't find anything in the
archives.
Matthew
N523RV (Reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DellAngelo, Scott" <SDellAngelo(at)usg.com> |
| Subject: | Wingtip Lighting Question |
I like many probably am overanalyzing too many details prior to beginning
building. Anyways I figure i'll probably order the empennage kit in
November or so, so i've still got time to think about details for a while.
On the order form, line saying "Wingtips and rudder bottoms are designed for
lights. If you are not installing lights check this box". Does this mean
that the wingtips come like the factory 9 and 9A with the "notched" corners
in the fiberglass and clear lenses? Or do I need to get some extra option?
I know that I supply the lights (something like system 2 option b from
Vans). I want the same light setup as the factory 9A with position/strobes
in the wingtips and just position (no strobe) in the tail. I assume that
this covers the requirement of anti-collisions lights or does the tail light
also need to be a strobe because the wingtip strobes can't be seen from
behind?
Got my preview plans yesterday so i've got the very small "first" step down.
Should also be getting my checkride scheduled tomorrow. :)
Thanks,
Scott DellAngelo
Naperville, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wingtip Lighting Question |
>I like many probably am overanalyzing too many details prior
>to beginning building.
Get used to it, I still find myself over analyzing each step along the way. It
really helps when you finally get down to do something you already have the plan
in mind!
>that the wingtips come like the factory 9 and 9A with
>the "notched" corners in the fiberglass and clear lenses?
Yes that is correct. The default is to have the streamlined cut outs in the tips
like the prototypes have.
>I want the same light setup as the factory 9A with position/strobes
>in the wingtips and just position (no strobe) in the tail.
129RV has a aft facing tail strobe position light combo. With the enclosed wing
lights you must have the rear facing strobe to be legal.
>Thanks,
Good luck, you have much fun ahead of you!
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Seattle WA
Canopy cutting! Yikes...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | ELT Antenna Location |
Anybody decided where they are going to place the ELT Antenna for a AK-450?
It looks like a good place would be on the top of the Fuselage, just in
front of the Vertical Stabilizer Fiberglass Faring.
The #1 Com Antenna could then go on top of the Fuselage, between the ELT and
the open position of the Canopy.
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wingtip Lighting Question |
08/16/2002 11:31:18 PM,
Serialize complete at 08/16/2002 11:31:18 PM
Well at least a rear facing white light. Strobe is optional.
Regards
Larry Perryman
Andy Karmy
08/16/2002 11:31 AM
Please respond to rv9-list
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Wingtip Lighting Question
>I like many probably am overanalyzing too many details prior
>to beginning building.
Get used to it, I still find myself over analyzing each step along the
way. It really helps when you finally get down to do something you
already have the plan in mind!
>that the wingtips come like the factory 9 and 9A with
>the "notched" corners in the fiberglass and clear lenses?
Yes that is correct. The default is to have the streamlined cut outs in
the tips like the prototypes have.
>I want the same light setup as the factory 9A with position/strobes
>in the wingtips and just position (no strobe) in the tail.
129RV has a aft facing tail strobe position light combo. With the
enclosed wing lights you must have the rear facing strobe to be legal.
>Thanks,
Good luck, you have much fun ahead of you!
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Seattle WA
Canopy cutting! Yikes...
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | ELT Antenna Location |
Hi Dave,
The empennage fairing is great, but I decided to put mine right behind the
baggage bulkhead. My AK-450 is mounted under the passenger seatback right
in front of the flap torque tube. That way I have the antenna close to the
ELT.
I've put my comm antenna in the left wingtip and the nave in the right
wingtip. The only external antennas I have are the TXPDR and DME, and those
shouldn't cost too much speed.
Good luck,
Stein Bruch,
RV6, Minneapolis, In the middle of a painting marathon!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Nicholson
Subject: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location
Anybody decided where they are going to place the ELT Antenna for a AK-450?
It looks like a good place would be on the top of the Fuselage, just in
front of the Vertical Stabilizer Fiberglass Faring.
The #1 Com Antenna could then go on top of the Fuselage, between the ELT and
the open position of the Canopy.
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
After reviewing the last two years of the Archives, it looks like people are
putting the ELT Antenna in one of three places:
1. Inside the canopy somewhere in the Baggage Area with the ELT nearby
2. Under the Empennage Fiberglass Faring with the ELT near the Baggage Area
3. In the Wing Tip with the ELT on the outer Wing Rib
It seems to me the first two locations are pretty well shielded by the
fuselage, particularly in a roll-over situation, and the third option is a
lot of weight way out on the wing (Good for "lift", bad for balance), plus
the wings are the "first thing to go".
Anybody know why a RAMI AV-10 or AV-17 can't be used for the ELT and mount
it on the top of the Fuselage just aft of the F-707 Bulkhead? It's more
durable and streamlined than the "coat hanger" provide with AK-450, and
should be the correct length for 121.5 MHz.
It looks like you need to keep any Comm Antenna at least 24" away to prevent
coupling, so I'd put both my Comm Antennas on the underside between the left
and right outer most Seat Ribs where it is easy to reach the BNC Connections
and it's a short run to the radio stack.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Slider canopy trim? |
To the few of you ahead of me...
How much is the front windscreen suposed to overlap the side skins? I am looking
for the rear overlap where the front windscreen meets the rollbar. Down in the
bottom corner. The top fuselage skin wraps back there with the front curve.
Right now I have about 1 inch overlap, however it seems that on DWG43 that there
is almost no overlap???? I know this whole area is covered with fiberglass anyways,
just wondering how short to trim?
- Andy Karmy
Working on the dreaded canopy monster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
| Subject: | ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
Dave,
Any comm antenna would be a suitable substitute for an ELT that only
transmits on 121.5 MHz. But be aware that some ELT's also broadcast on a
higher frequency simultaneously (I cant' remember the frequency, I'd have to
check my ELT at home). An ELT anteanna with a loading coil MAY have this
coil placed at the correct spot to act as a low pass filter and effectively
make the antenna "look" shorter at higher frequencies. A standard comm
antenna may reduce the ELT's effectiveness at higher frequencies. This is
all a "possibility" based on antenna theory, but I can't tell you if this is
the way the coiled antennas are designed or not. Maybe you could try the
aeroelectric list and see if Bob Knuckolls has knows whether these antennas
are tuned to both frequencies. Of course this only applies if you have a
dual frequency ELT.
Todd Houg
Got my engine home!
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Nicholson [mailto:dnick2(at)insightbb.com]
Subject: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
After reviewing the last two years of the Archives, it looks like people are
putting the ELT Antenna in one of three places:
1. Inside the canopy somewhere in the Baggage Area with the ELT nearby
2. Under the Empennage Fiberglass Faring with the ELT near the Baggage Area
3. In the Wing Tip with the ELT on the outer Wing Rib
It seems to me the first two locations are pretty well shielded by the
fuselage, particularly in a roll-over situation, and the third option is a
lot of weight way out on the wing (Good for "lift", bad for balance), plus
the wings are the "first thing to go".
Anybody know why a RAMI AV-10 or AV-17 can't be used for the ELT and mount
it on the top of the Fuselage just aft of the F-707 Bulkhead? It's more
durable and streamlined than the "coat hanger" provide with AK-450, and
should be the correct length for 121.5 MHz.
It looks like you need to keep any Comm Antenna at least 24" away to prevent
coupling, so I'd put both my Comm Antennas on the underside between the left
and right outer most Seat Ribs where it is easy to reach the BNC Connections
and it's a short run to the radio stack.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slider canopy trim? |
Andy,
I brought mine down about half way down the skin. That way it comes out
about even with the slider
Regards
Larry Perryman
90288 N194DL Last little bits.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Slider canopy trim?
|
| To the few of you ahead of me...
|
| How much is the front windscreen suposed to overlap the side skins? I am
looking for the rear overlap where the front windscreen meets the rollbar.
Down in the bottom corner. The top fuselage skin wraps back there with the
front curve.
|
| Right now I have about 1 inch overlap, however it seems that on DWG43 that
there is almost no overlap???? I know this whole area is covered with
fiberglass anyways, just wondering how short to trim?
|
| - Andy Karmy
| Working on the dreaded canopy monster
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
My ELT (AK-450) does indeed transmit on dual frequencies (121.5 MHz as well
as 243.0 MHz), but since they are multiples, the quarter-wave for the lower
frequency becomes a half-wave for the higher frequency.
The antenna provided with the ELT is 24.5" long, so it doesn't look like it
has a loading coil.
In my call to Ameri-King, while they did not say "that's a great idea", they
didn't say "don' t do that" either.
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
Subject: RE: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
> Dave,
>
> Any comm antenna would be a suitable substitute for an ELT that only
> transmits on 121.5 MHz. But be aware that some ELT's also broadcast on a
> higher frequency simultaneously (I cant' remember the frequency, I'd have
to
> check my ELT at home). An ELT anteanna with a loading coil MAY have this
> coil placed at the correct spot to act as a low pass filter and
effectively
> make the antenna "look" shorter at higher frequencies. A standard comm
> antenna may reduce the ELT's effectiveness at higher frequencies. This is
> all a "possibility" based on antenna theory, but I can't tell you if this
is
> the way the coiled antennas are designed or not. Maybe you could try the
> aeroelectric list and see if Bob Knuckolls has knows whether these
antennas
> are tuned to both frequencies. Of course this only applies if you have a
> dual frequency ELT.
>
> Todd Houg
> Got my engine home!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Nicholson [mailto:dnick2(at)insightbb.com]
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
>
> After reviewing the last two years of the Archives, it looks like people
are
> putting the ELT Antenna in one of three places:
>
> 1. Inside the canopy somewhere in the Baggage Area with the ELT nearby
> 2. Under the Empennage Fiberglass Faring with the ELT near the Baggage
Area
> 3. In the Wing Tip with the ELT on the outer Wing Rib
>
> It seems to me the first two locations are pretty well shielded by the
> fuselage, particularly in a roll-over situation, and the third option is a
> lot of weight way out on the wing (Good for "lift", bad for balance), plus
> the wings are the "first thing to go".
>
> Anybody know why a RAMI AV-10 or AV-17 can't be used for the ELT and mount
> it on the top of the Fuselage just aft of the F-707 Bulkhead? It's more
> durable and streamlined than the "coat hanger" provide with AK-450, and
> should be the correct length for 121.5 MHz.
>
> It looks like you need to keep any Comm Antenna at least 24" away to
prevent
> coupling, so I'd put both my Comm Antennas on the underside between the
left
> and right outer most Seat Ribs where it is easy to reach the BNC
Connections
> and it's a short run to the radio stack.
>
> Dave
> 90347
> Finishing Kit
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
Yea that would work fine. I think the most important part is the location
and mounting. Seems like every crash story I read the ELT was useless
because it was damaged or the antenna was ripped off during crash.
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
> My ELT (AK-450) does indeed transmit on dual frequencies (121.5 MHz as
well
> as 243.0 MHz), but since they are multiples, the quarter-wave for the
lower
> frequency becomes a half-wave for the higher frequency.
>
> The antenna provided with the ELT is 24.5" long, so it doesn't look like
it
> has a loading coil.
>
> In my call to Ameri-King, while they did not say "that's a great idea",
they
> didn't say "don' t do that" either.
>
> Dave
> 90347
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
>
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Any comm antenna would be a suitable substitute for an ELT that only
> > transmits on 121.5 MHz. But be aware that some ELT's also broadcast on a
> > higher frequency simultaneously (I cant' remember the frequency, I'd
have
> to
> > check my ELT at home). An ELT anteanna with a loading coil MAY have this
> > coil placed at the correct spot to act as a low pass filter and
> effectively
> > make the antenna "look" shorter at higher frequencies. A standard comm
> > antenna may reduce the ELT's effectiveness at higher frequencies. This
is
> > all a "possibility" based on antenna theory, but I can't tell you if
this
> is
> > the way the coiled antennas are designed or not. Maybe you could try the
> > aeroelectric list and see if Bob Knuckolls has knows whether these
> antennas
> > are tuned to both frequencies. Of course this only applies if you have a
> > dual frequency ELT.
> >
> > Todd Houg
> > Got my engine home!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dave Nicholson [mailto:dnick2(at)insightbb.com]
> > To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
> >
> >
> >
> > After reviewing the last two years of the Archives, it looks like people
> are
> > putting the ELT Antenna in one of three places:
> >
> > 1. Inside the canopy somewhere in the Baggage Area with the ELT nearby
> > 2. Under the Empennage Fiberglass Faring with the ELT near the Baggage
> Area
> > 3. In the Wing Tip with the ELT on the outer Wing Rib
> >
> > It seems to me the first two locations are pretty well shielded by the
> > fuselage, particularly in a roll-over situation, and the third option is
a
> > lot of weight way out on the wing (Good for "lift", bad for balance),
plus
> > the wings are the "first thing to go".
> >
> > Anybody know why a RAMI AV-10 or AV-17 can't be used for the ELT and
mount
> > it on the top of the Fuselage just aft of the F-707 Bulkhead? It's more
> > durable and streamlined than the "coat hanger" provide with AK-450, and
> > should be the correct length for 121.5 MHz.
> >
> > It looks like you need to keep any Comm Antenna at least 24" away to
> prevent
> > coupling, so I'd put both my Comm Antennas on the underside between the
> left
> > and right outer most Seat Ribs where it is easy to reach the BNC
> Connections
> > and it's a short run to the radio stack.
> >
> > Dave
> > 90347
> > Finishing Kit
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
Dave,
You are correct, I couldn't remember if the two frequencies were
multiples. Now that I'm home and have examined my ACK ELT, it has an
antenna with a coil on it, but it's not positioned correctly to be tuned
to a shorter wave length. The ACK also transmits on 121.5 MHz and 243
MHz. A quarter wave comm antenna should work fine for either of these
ELT's.
Todd Houg
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Nicholson [SMTP:dnick2(at)insightbb.com]
Subject: Re: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
My ELT (AK-450) does indeed transmit on dual frequencies (121.5 MHz as
well
as 243.0 MHz), but since they are multiples, the quarter-wave for the
lower
frequency becomes a half-wave for the higher frequency.
The antenna provided with the ELT is 24.5" long, so it doesn't look like
it
has a loading coil.
In my call to Ameri-King, while they did not say "that's a great idea",
they
didn't say "don' t do that" either.
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "tchoug" <tchoug(at)micron.com>
Subject: RE: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
> Dave,
>
> Any comm antenna would be a suitable substitute for an ELT that only
> transmits on 121.5 MHz. But be aware that some ELT's also broadcast on
a
> higher frequency simultaneously (I cant' remember the frequency, I'd
have
to
> check my ELT at home). An ELT anteanna with a loading coil MAY have
this
> coil placed at the correct spot to act as a low pass filter and
effectively
> make the antenna "look" shorter at higher frequencies. A standard comm
> antenna may reduce the ELT's effectiveness at higher frequencies. This
is
> all a "possibility" based on antenna theory, but I can't tell you if
this
is
> the way the coiled antennas are designed or not. Maybe you could try
the
> aeroelectric list and see if Bob Knuckolls has knows whether these
antennas
> are tuned to both frequencies. Of course this only applies if you have
a
> dual frequency ELT.
>
> Todd Houg
> Got my engine home!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Nicholson [mailto:dnick2(at)insightbb.com]
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
>
>
> After reviewing the last two years of the Archives, it looks like
people
are
> putting the ELT Antenna in one of three places:
>
> 1. Inside the canopy somewhere in the Baggage Area with the ELT
nearby
> 2. Under the Empennage Fiberglass Faring with the ELT near the
Baggage
Area
> 3. In the Wing Tip with the ELT on the outer Wing Rib
>
> It seems to me the first two locations are pretty well shielded by the
> fuselage, particularly in a roll-over situation, and the third option
is a
> lot of weight way out on the wing (Good for "lift", bad for balance),
plus
> the wings are the "first thing to go".
>
> Anybody know why a RAMI AV-10 or AV-17 can't be used for the ELT and
mount
> it on the top of the Fuselage just aft of the F-707 Bulkhead? It's
more
> durable and streamlined than the "coat hanger" provide with AK-450,
and
> should be the correct length for 121.5 MHz.
>
> It looks like you need to keep any Comm Antenna at least 24" away to
prevent
> coupling, so I'd put both my Comm Antennas on the underside between
the
left
> and right outer most Seat Ribs where it is easy to reach the BNC
Connections
> and it's a short run to the radio stack.
>
> Dave
> 90347
> Finishing Kit
>
>
=
=
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
According to the very clear instructions that came with my AmeriKing ELT the
antenna is to go on the top exterior fuselage surface, oriented vertically.
I'll probably ignore them like everyone else and put it under the tail fairing.
This thing claims to be good for 250 miles which is about 150 more that I am
likely to ever be from civilization when I nose into the turf, so a little bit
of range loss isn't going to kill me. ;
) Be forewarned, an astute inspector
will catch this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute |
250 miles ? I used to have to run a Kilowatt Amp with a 11 element beam to
get that kind of ground wave range on VHF . Nothing at these freqs and power
levels will carry that far ( especially if its buried in the ground) :>)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: ELT Antenna Location & Substitute
>
> According to the very clear instructions that came with my AmeriKing ELT
the
> antenna is to go on the top exterior fuselage surface, oriented
vertically.
> I'll probably ignore them like everyone else and put it under the tail
fairing.
> This thing claims to be good for 250 miles which is about 150 more that I
am
> likely to ever be from civilization when I nose into the turf, so a little
bit
> of range loss isn't going to kill me. ;
) Be forewarned, an astute
inspector
> will catch this.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | heads up on some things about rv9a panels |
I am sometimes the master of the obvious, but here are some things I
'mulled over' about parameters of panel design on my RV9a:
I am always looking for somebody that has 'been there and done it'. I
don't like to reinvent the wheel. I know what I like when I see it, but
am not too good at the designing it, end of things.
#1
So in trying to figure out where to put things on my RV9a panel, I was
puzzled, by the layout of the 'pre-punched' panel. Working from left to
right, the 1st and 2nd row of instruments show a certain spacing, but
the space between the 2nd and 3rd rows of instruments is wider. I knew I
didn't like that. I like symmetry. That's what I like. You can like what
you like. That is OK. We all have our likes.
If you are like me, you say to yourself, Van knows what he is doing.
They did it for a reason. I was playing with epanel builder (doesn't
work well with Netscape, but works great with MS explorer,
www.epanelbuilder.com/ , a cute, neat program that is free and helps you
to design your panel. They have both the standard panel and the
prepunched panel, as starting points.
I was concerned about that funny space between the 2nd and 3rd rows of
instruments, so I started with the 'pre-punched panel. I threw some
radios and instruments on it, using it's spacing. A neat feature is you
can click on the standard RV9a panel, at any time, and it puts 'your
stuff' on the standard blank, erasing all the pre punched holes. You can
go back to the pre-punched again. Kool, I thought, but why the funning
spacing.
Long ago I had pulled all the stuff about the tip up, from my plans. I
did not need it. But I recently got the 'preview plan book' , because it
was more up to date and also had part number references to drawing
number (look up the part number, see what drawings it is on)...a neat
feature. It had drawing 24 (my 9a) and drawing 24a (the tip up).
It became clear, and a phone call to Vans (something, in my not so
humble opinion, when a question is important, should be done more often,
not relying on the list 'opinions'), showed that my very late
observations recognized a truism. To whit the pre-punched panel is
designed to fit both the slider and the tilt up. The tilt up has 2 big
braces that separate the panel into 3rds. The slider had tapered
brackets that allow mush more freedom, because of the taper.
OK, that is the obvious.
#2
My supplied panel did not fit (at the notches) as close as I would like.
I also chose to use some used aluminum eyeball vents from a 210 (I
believe), instead of the ill sealing and bulky fitting, black plastic
ones from Vans. So I did not need the round cut outs in the lower left
and right sides of the stock panel.
I told Vans and they said they could send be a panel blank from an RV6
(part# 603). They did, but it was too narrow. The RV9a has a panel that
is 41 and 1/2" at it's widest. RV 6 panel doesn't come close.
I returned it and they found one that was a big blank (42" wide) and
about 1/4" deeper (top to bottom) than the standard panel. If you can
stand less 'get in and get out' leg room, you have a little more panel
realestate to put stuff on (about 10 sq inches). If you need that 1/4",
then you can trim the panel to the same depth as the stock, but can
finish off the bottom , outside corners the way you want.
This was a long post, but I hope, shows there are some interesting
things out there...maybe obvious to some, but not to me. Hope it helps
you with your design solutions.
Barry Pote RV9a finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heads up on some things about rv9a panels |
Barry,
I assumed when I opted NOT to ask for the "pre-punched" panel I will get a
blank one ?
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "barry pote" <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV9-List: heads up on some things about rv9a panels
>
> I am sometimes the master of the obvious, but here are some things I
> 'mulled over' about parameters of panel design on my RV9a:
>
> I am always looking for somebody that has 'been there and done it'. I
> don't like to reinvent the wheel. I know what I like when I see it, but
> am not too good at the designing it, end of things.
>
> #1
> So in trying to figure out where to put things on my RV9a panel, I was
> puzzled, by the layout of the 'pre-punched' panel. Working from left to
> right, the 1st and 2nd row of instruments show a certain spacing, but
> the space between the 2nd and 3rd rows of instruments is wider. I knew I
> didn't like that. I like symmetry. That's what I like. You can like what
> you like. That is OK. We all have our likes.
>
> If you are like me, you say to yourself, Van knows what he is doing.
> They did it for a reason. I was playing with epanel builder (doesn't
> work well with Netscape, but works great with MS explorer,
> www.epanelbuilder.com/ , a cute, neat program that is free and helps you
> to design your panel. They have both the standard panel and the
> prepunched panel, as starting points.
>
> I was concerned about that funny space between the 2nd and 3rd rows of
> instruments, so I started with the 'pre-punched panel. I threw some
> radios and instruments on it, using it's spacing. A neat feature is you
> can click on the standard RV9a panel, at any time, and it puts 'your
> stuff' on the standard blank, erasing all the pre punched holes. You can
> go back to the pre-punched again. Kool, I thought, but why the funning
> spacing.
>
> Long ago I had pulled all the stuff about the tip up, from my plans. I
> did not need it. But I recently got the 'preview plan book' , because it
> was more up to date and also had part number references to drawing
> number (look up the part number, see what drawings it is on)...a neat
> feature. It had drawing 24 (my 9a) and drawing 24a (the tip up).
>
> It became clear, and a phone call to Vans (something, in my not so
> humble opinion, when a question is important, should be done more often,
> not relying on the list 'opinions'), showed that my very late
> observations recognized a truism. To whit the pre-punched panel is
> designed to fit both the slider and the tilt up. The tilt up has 2 big
> braces that separate the panel into 3rds. The slider had tapered
> brackets that allow mush more freedom, because of the taper.
>
> OK, that is the obvious.
>
> #2
> My supplied panel did not fit (at the notches) as close as I would like.
> I also chose to use some used aluminum eyeball vents from a 210 (I
> believe), instead of the ill sealing and bulky fitting, black plastic
> ones from Vans. So I did not need the round cut outs in the lower left
> and right sides of the stock panel.
>
> I told Vans and they said they could send be a panel blank from an RV6
> (part# 603). They did, but it was too narrow. The RV9a has a panel that
> is 41 and 1/2" at it's widest. RV 6 panel doesn't come close.
> I returned it and they found one that was a big blank (42" wide) and
> about 1/4" deeper (top to bottom) than the standard panel. If you can
> stand less 'get in and get out' leg room, you have a little more panel
> realestate to put stuff on (about 10 sq inches). If you need that 1/4",
> then you can trim the panel to the same depth as the stock, but can
> finish off the bottom , outside corners the way you want.
>
> This was a long post, but I hope, shows there are some interesting
> things out there...maybe obvious to some, but not to me. Hope it helps
> you with your design solutions.
> Barry Pote RV9a finishing
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DellAngelo, Scott" <SDellAngelo(at)usg.com> |
| Subject: | IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
I like to have a plan of attack. This is i'm sure subject to change by the
time I am building a panel but to put my mind at ease and have an idea of
cost i'll ask. I plan to build an IFR ship and get my rating in it and use
the rating for more flexible travelling and just being a more "competent"
pilot. Anyways here's the idea, what am I missing as far as the
avionics/communications?
GTX 320A Transponder (~$1300)
GNS-430 IFR/Nav/ILS/Com (~$6750 new and the then the install
issue/connectors)
GI 106 Indicator w/GS (~$1500)
PCD7100-P Intercom/CD player ($600)
Perhaps some of these could be bought used or cheaper but it's a start.
Would a marker beacon be needed or an annunciator unit? Other things i'm
missing? I know second coms and navs are nice, but not only does one have
to buy those but also an audio panel then and the thousands keep piling on.
Now if I really needed marker beacon then I guess i'd get an audio panel
w/mkb receiver and second com. For at least a level of backup I would have
a handheld nav/com and handheld GPS.
I really need to order the kit and get started can't you tell? Another
month or two.
Thanks,
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heads up on some things about rv9a panels |
Good points thus far...
Also don't forget that what ever you do on the front panel, you will have to support
on the rear support panel. Thus when laying out the radio stack, consider
how it will punch through the rear panel. You can see on Gary's site how he
modified his support rib to fit them.
In my case I mounted the radio's low and just cleared the tapered support brace.
Also if you are going to use Van's mapbox, consider it's location fixed as the
plans call out exactly where it should mount to clear everything. Make sure
to leave enough room for that while doodling around with epanel builder...
All great fun!
- Andy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
Before you finalize your "plan of attack", I'd recommend you talk with some
pilots who fly lots of IFR. One NAV and one COM are the minimum you need.
If you like to fly IFR for more than just popping through the clouds your
going to need/want some redundency. Listening to ATIS while talking staying
on the frequency with the controller is something to think about. Many
missed approaches and lots of approaches require you to be able to identify
two radials before you can even attempt the approach. Try flying a DME arc
with only one NAV and you'll find yourself busier than a one armed man in a
paper hanging contest. Toss in a little turb in the RV and you'll have your
hands full.
Get yourself a second NAV/COM and you'll be glad you did.
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
> I like to have a plan of attack. This is i'm sure subject to change by
the
> time I am building a panel but to put my mind at ease and have an idea of
> cost i'll ask. I plan to build an IFR ship and get my rating in it and
use
> the rating for more flexible travelling and just being a more "competent"
> pilot. Anyways here's the idea, what am I missing as far as the
> avionics/communications?
>
> GTX 320A Transponder (~$1300)
> GNS-430 IFR/Nav/ILS/Com (~$6750 new and the then the install
> issue/connectors)
> GI 106 Indicator w/GS (~$1500)
> PCD7100-P Intercom/CD player ($600)
>
> Perhaps some of these could be bought used or cheaper but it's a start.
> Would a marker beacon be needed or an annunciator unit? Other things i'm
> missing? I know second coms and navs are nice, but not only does one have
> to buy those but also an audio panel then and the thousands keep piling
on.
> Now if I really needed marker beacon then I guess i'd get an audio panel
> w/mkb receiver and second com. For at least a level of backup I would
have
> a handheld nav/com and handheld GPS.
>
> I really need to order the kit and get started can't you tell? Another
> month or two.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Sliding Canopy tips |
Ok,
As I am nearing the end of fitting the Slider canopy I thought I would pass on
a couple of quick tips...
First on the subject of trimming the windscreen that I asked about, here's the
answer from Vans:
----------------
The skin extends to the rear of the roll bar. The canopy overlaps
5/8" to 3/4" below the top edge of the skin. The builder made
fiberglass fairing covers the whole thing and extends aft of the roll
bar.
Bruce Reynolds
brucer(at)vansaircraft.com
----------------
Now for the best tip I have found thus far from the RV list archives! When it comes
time to bolt the slider tracks down to the canopy deck and longaron sections.
These parts are already riveted in and with the curled lip on the underside
it's almost impossible to get your fingers in there to put nuts and washers
on.
Drill the canopy slider tracks to #40 during fitting and cleco on. Then once the
canopy is fit and you're ready to bolt them, cut a .032 strip 1/2 inch wide
by the length of the slider track. It needs to cover all the holes except the
last one in the rear as the seat bulkhead blocks access to that from the bottom.
Then simply match drill the strip from your track. Now mount #8 nutplates on
that strip and you will have the easist time ever mounting those screws. Drill
everything out for the screws and it goes together as easy as you please.
The rest of it follows the plans nicely. There is no easy way to fit all the parts.
I think I put the frame and canopy on and off about 100+ times before everything
fit like I wanted it to! But it's looking good now. I got by with only
2 .063 shims across the top center of the windscreen in the end.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle WA
Ready to rivet Canopy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J R Saunders" <jr182pilot(at)attbi.com> |
Hi Flight,
I am a new guy to the list. (Did stop in a few times a year ago.)
And live on the West Hill of the City of Kent, in Wa. State. About 4
miles from SEA-TAC.
I currently own and fly a 69 Cessna 182M Skylane w/STOL. Based at S50. I
was an Army Helicopter Mechanic (C.E.) & Door Gunner, with 4000+ hrs
Crew Time. UH-1, C, D, & H models.
On 09/06/01 I ordered the RV-9A Preview Plans/Manual from Van's. This
started my home work study. (I also ordered the Zenith Zodiac INFO pack
as well, please don't tell anyone:)
On 08/19/02 I faxed in my order for the RV-9A Empennage kit.
On 08/21/02 I drove Mr. Truck, with a friend to Van's to get my kit and
do a demo flight. Did the Factory Tour as well. And yes, I did come home
with 2 boxes. LOL Now the fun starts........
J R Saunders
RV-9A Setting up shop.
Character gives splendor to youth and awe to wrinkled skill and gray
hairs. EMERSON.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you cannot
use an experimental aircraft for official IFR training. Also, the last time
I
checked out the sylabus for IFR, it spent a whole lot of time on near-obsolete
equipment that you probably don't want in your bird anyway. My advice would
be to separate your training from your RV plan of attack and take the training
in a wonderfully beat up Cessna or Cherokee like most people do.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
Welcome aboard JR!
Your many long hours working the bits of aluminum into something that
resembles an airplane will be very rewarding when you finally have a
completed airplane, and you can say - I built that!
As I'm sure you're aware, there are a great number of excellent
resources on RV building on the web as well as the grea group on the
RV-list.
Have fun!
Todd Houg
http://www.toddhoug.com
-----Original Message-----
From: J R Saunders [SMTP:jr182pilot(at)attbi.com]
Subject: RV9-List: new guy
Hi Flight,
I am a new guy to the list. (Did stop in a few times a year ago.)
And live on the West Hill of the City of Kent, in Wa. State. About 4
miles from SEA-TAC.
I currently own and fly a 69 Cessna 182M Skylane w/STOL. Based at S50. I
was an Army Helicopter Mechanic (C.E.) & Door Gunner, with 4000+ hrs
Crew Time. UH-1, C, D, & H models.
On 09/06/01 I ordered the RV-9A Preview Plans/Manual from Van's. This
started my home work study. (I also ordered the Zenith Zodiac INFO pack
as well, please don't tell anyone:)
On 08/19/02 I faxed in my order for the RV-9A Empennage kit.
On 08/21/02 I drove Mr. Truck, with a friend to Van's to get my kit and
do a demo flight. Did the Factory Tour as well. And yes, I did come home
with 2 boxes. LOL Now the fun starts........
J R Saunders
RV-9A Setting up shop.
Character gives splendor to youth and awe to wrinkled skill and gray
hairs. EMERSON.
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DellAngelo, Scott" <SDellAngelo(at)usg.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
I've read about people getting IFR training in their RV in the RV archives
when searching for various things. I do not know anything more about IFR
training in experimental than that. It was more than one person though.
After a couple private emails and talking with my IFR rated uncle whose got
lots of single pilot IFR time it looks like a second com is pretty
necessary, but (I did not know this) you do not need an audio panel to do
it. Just adjusting the volumes of the two radios and a switch to determine
which to transmit on. Also after some searching around you can get marker
beacons as cheap as $100 so no problem adding it at that price.
I noticed another thing that makes me feel better. The IFR certificated
Diamond Star has only one GNS430 in "standard" trim. A second 430 and the
530's and such are options. Of course i'd love to have more stuff and maybe
by the time I build the panel I will get more but it makes me feel better
now knowing that I can do it this "cheap" way while still having GPS.
Thanks,
Scott
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you
cannot
use an experimental aircraft for official IFR training. Also, the last
time I
checked out the sylabus for IFR, it spent a whole lot of time on
near-obsolete
equipment that you probably don't want in your bird anyway. My advice
would
be to separate your training from your RV plan of attack and take the
training
in a wonderfully beat up Cessna or Cherokee like most people do.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
> After a couple private emails and talking with my IFR rated uncle whose got
> lots of single pilot IFR time it looks like a second com is pretty
> necessary.
I totally agree that you need a second comm. Having said that, some UPS
radios now let you monitor the standby frequency, so you might be able to
get away with just one Comm. However, I would still want a second one for
backup.
I found that when flying IFR with DME, I would rarely use my second NAV,
except as a backup, or to cross-check an intersection that I had identified
with DME and the first NAV. I felt my situational awareness was much better
with DME than with 2 NAVs, so I was thinking of maybe leaving out the second
NAV and installing DME and a single NAV. On the other hand, I wonder if you
could use an IFR-approved GPS instead of DME. I'm not sure if this would be
smart or legal, especially on an approach. Any comments?
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "robert" <rscott(at)johnsonmfginc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
Mark,
I was doing some research on this last night trying to figure out what I
will be needing someday. I believe the FAR/AIM book stated you can fly IFR
with a GPS unit TSO C129 that has RAIM capability. ( From memory RAIM?)
Also, I know it recommends that you have a backup method of navigation such
as VOR. I don't have the book in front of me and I am not a IFR rated pilot
so I could be wrong here. (My disclaimer) Garmin's 430 has GPS/NAV and COM
in one. I was thinking about going with this unit instead of buying two
NAV/COM radios and a GPS. Here's a question, Do you still need the
outer/middle marker receiver when using a GPS based navigation system?
Robert Scott
> I found that when flying IFR with DME, I would rarely use my second NAV,
> except as a backup, or to cross-check an intersection that I had
identified
> with DME and the first NAV. I felt my situational awareness was much
better
> with DME than with 2 NAVs, so I was thinking of maybe leaving out the
second
> NAV and installing DME and a single NAV. On the other hand, I wonder if
you
> could use an IFR-approved GPS instead of DME. I'm not sure if this would
be
> smart or legal, especially on an approach. Any comments?
>
> Mark Schrimmer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Avionics Question (what am I missing?) |
on 8/23/02 10:50 AM, robert at rscott(at)johnsonmfginc.com wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I was doing some research on this last night trying to figure out what I
> will be needing someday. I believe the FAR/AIM book stated you can fly IFR
> with a GPS unit TSO C129 that has RAIM capability. ( From memory RAIM?)
> Also, I know it recommends that you have a backup method of navigation such
> as VOR. I don't have the book in front of me and I am not a IFR rated pilot
> so I could be wrong here. (My disclaimer) Garmin's 430 has GPS/NAV and COM
> in one. I was thinking about going with this unit instead of buying two
> NAV/COM radios and a GPS. Here's a question, Do you still need the
> outer/middle marker receiver when using a GPS based navigation system?
>
> Robert Scott
>
>
I believe you will need a marker beacon receiver to hear the sound the
beacon makes as you fly over it. I don't think a GPS would let you hear the
sound.
I've also been considering the Garmin 430, but if it's the only radio in
your plane and it goes down, you've lost everything--COM, GPS and VOR.
That's the argument for separate boxes.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joerpilot2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV9-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 08/22/02 |
For the official word on required equipment for IFR look at FAR part 91.205.
Good luck,
Joe Ramotowski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
"Gus Funnell"
| Subject: | Empennage Fairing Installation Attachment Issues |
Gus,
After spend the day working on the Empennage Fairing Installation, there are
a few items Van's might want to consider in the sequence and instructions
relating to the Empennage and the Fuselage:
1. DWG 3 (top View) shows that ten holes on the top surface of the inner
two Horizontal Stabilizer should be left open for Empennage Fairing
Attachment and DWG 6PP (Elevation View) shows twelve holes on the lower rib
to also be left open for the Fairing, but waiting until the HS and the VS
are mounted on the Fuselage make access to these areas pretty tight.
>> It would be better to mount the twenty-two nut plates during construction
of the Empennage Phase, rather than waiting for the Finishing Kit Phase.
2. DWG-6PP (Elevation View) shows the aft-most hole to be on the VS-803PP
while DWG 44 (Empennage Fairing Attachment) indicates this hole is forward
of this position.
>> It looks like DWG-6PP is correct since it would be very hard to get a
nutplate into the space forward of the VS-803PP.
3. DWG 26 (Exploded Isometric View) and DWG 27 (Isometric View) imply there
might be five "empty" rivet holes on the vertical surface of the aft end of
the Upper Longerons, but DWG 28 (F-773-L/R Aft Side Skin) does not show that
any rivets should be left out to accommodate the AN-507-6R8 Screws that hold
the F-994A Empennage Gap Cover in place.
>> It is necessary to drill out four AN426AD3-5 rivets on each side of the
aft end Upper Longerons in order to tap the holes to 6-32. It would be a
lot easier to drill and tap these holes during the assembly of the F-773 Aft
Side Skins rather than deal with them after the HS is in place.
Dave Nicholson
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Empennage Fairing Installation Attachment Issues |
Dave - really useful. Thanks for sharing that! I am far enough behind that I
can take all this into account. Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nicholson
Subject: RV9-List: Empennage Fairing Installation Attachment Issues
Gus,
After spend the day working on the Empennage Fairing Installation, there are
a few items Van's might want to consider in the sequence and instructions
relating to the Empennage and the Fuselage:
1. DWG 3 (top View) shows that ten holes on the top surface of the inner
two Horizontal Stabilizer should be left open for Empennage Fairing
Attachment and DWG 6PP (Elevation View) shows twelve holes on the lower rib
to also be left open for the Fairing, but waiting until the HS and the VS
are mounted on the Fuselage make access to these areas pretty tight.
>> It would be better to mount the twenty-two nut plates during construction
of the Empennage Phase, rather than waiting for the Finishing Kit Phase.
2. DWG-6PP (Elevation View) shows the aft-most hole to be on the VS-803PP
while DWG 44 (Empennage Fairing Attachment) indicates this hole is forward
of this position.
>> It looks like DWG-6PP is correct since it would be very hard to get a
nutplate into the space forward of the VS-803PP.
3. DWG 26 (Exploded Isometric View) and DWG 27 (Isometric View) imply there
might be five "empty" rivet holes on the vertical surface of the aft end of
the Upper Longerons, but DWG 28 (F-773-L/R Aft Side Skin) does not show that
any rivets should be left out to accommodate the AN-507-6R8 Screws that hold
the F-994A Empennage Gap Cover in place.
>> It is necessary to drill out four AN426AD3-5 rivets on each side of the
aft end Upper Longerons in order to tap the holes to 6-32. It would be a
lot easier to drill and tap these holes during the assembly of the F-773 Aft
Side Skins rather than deal with them after the HS is in place.
Dave Nicholson
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Empennage Fairing Installation Attachment Issues |
Dave,
Another one is on the wings. Go ahead and put the nut plates in for the wing
root faring while you have the wings off the plane. It is a lot easier -
Don't ask how I know.
I agree about the empanage faring also.
Regards
Larry Perryman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Wings and flap brackets |
I am in the process of getting ready to rivet the wing skeleton. Has
any one that has been this way before considered riveting the 925 B and
C angles and the 925 A flap brackets to the ribs before attaching the
rib to the rear spar? This is a fairly difficult area to work in and by
doing it "off the wing" would be a piece of cake. I have looked for the
proverbial trap but I can't find one.
I would also like to pass on a suggestion that might make things go a
little quicker. I had the wing skeleton clecoed and matched drilled
together. The next step was the dreaded 3 d's, disassemble, debur and
dimple. I decided to go ahead and fit the top skins and match drill
them. I still had clecos left over so on went bottom skins. I will
now be able to take both wings apart do the dirty work and prime all the
parts at once.
Worked for me, your results may vary !!
Gene N557RV(res.) o-320 A1A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Oliveira <oliveira(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wings and flap brackets |
Don't do it. It is important to line up the center flap bracket using a
taught wire or string between the holes. For that purpose the top skins
need to be on so the wing is ridged and there is no twist.
John Oliveira
Gene wrote:
>
>I am in the process of getting ready to rivet the wing skeleton. Has
>any one that has been this way before considered riveting the 925 B and
>C angles and the 925 A flap brackets to the ribs before attaching the
>rib to the rear spar? This is a fairly difficult area to work in and by
>doing it "off the wing" would be a piece of cake. I have looked for the
>proverbial trap but I can't find one.
>
>I would also like to pass on a suggestion that might make things go a
>little quicker. I had the wing skeleton clecoed and matched drilled
>together. The next step was the dreaded 3 d's, disassemble, debur and
>dimple. I decided to go ahead and fit the top skins and match drill
>them. I still had clecos left over so on went bottom skins. I will
>now be able to take both wings apart do the dirty work and prime all the
>parts at once.
>
>Worked for me, your results may vary !!
>
>Gene N557RV(res.) o-320 A1A
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Static Air System slip fits |
Van's instructions on the Static Air System call for slipping the 1/8"
clear plastic tubing inside of the 1/4" polypropylene tube, and then
slipping the 1/4' tube over the 3/16" plastic Tee fitting. I was only
able to slip a 1/4" of the tubing or Tee inside the 1/4" tubing. I tired
lubricating the tubes with saliva and finally with rubbing alcohol, but
neither one helped much. I also tried heating the 1/4" tube to expand
it, but that didn't help much either. Has anyone had better luck?
In an aside, the instructions say to use RTV to glue the 1/8" tube over
the SD-42-BSLF pop rivets with RTV, but RTV does not adhere to the
tubing. I had better luck with epoxy and a friend used ProSeal as an
adhesive.
Leland
Fitting up the canopy frame
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static Air System slip fits |
After shortening the barbs by about 1/2", I was able to slip the 1/4" OD
Poly-tube directly on the "Tee" with two good barbs to hold it on. I then
used lacing to secure the tubing, relieving any pressure that might try to
separate the parts.
As for the Static Ports, I took about 30 minutes and turned my own aluminum
ports with suitable shafts for the tubing which I then riveted to the outer
skin. (A lot like Cessna Static Ports ASC sells for $18 a pair.)
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: <federigo(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Static Air System slip fits
>
> Van's instructions on the Static Air System call for slipping the 1/8"
> clear plastic tubing inside of the 1/4" polypropylene tube, and then
> slipping the 1/4' tube over the 3/16" plastic Tee fitting. I was only
> able to slip a 1/4" of the tubing or Tee inside the 1/4" tubing. I tired
> lubricating the tubes with saliva and finally with rubbing alcohol, but
> neither one helped much. I also tried heating the 1/4" tube to expand
> it, but that didn't help much either. Has anyone had better luck?
>
> In an aside, the instructions say to use RTV to glue the 1/8" tube over
> the SD-42-BSLF pop rivets with RTV, but RTV does not adhere to the
> tubing. I had better luck with epoxy and a friend used ProSeal as an
> adhesive.
> Leland
> Fitting up the canopy frame
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wings and flap brackets |
on 8/26/02 5:20 PM, Gene at gene(at)nvaircraft.com wrote:
> Has any one that has been this way before considered riveting the 925 B and
> C angles and the 925 A flap brackets to the ribs before attaching the
> rib to the rear spar?
I did this and it seemed to work fine. Another builder I know also did the
same thing.
Since I built my flaps before the main part of the wing, I was able to bolt
the completed flap to the brackets while the wing was clecoed together in
the jig. The flaps fit OK, so I removed the ribs and then went ahead and
riveted the brackets to the ribs. I have not yet re-checked the fit of the
flaps with the top skins riveted into place, but I'll be sure to do this
after reading John Oliveira's warning about a possible twist.
Mark Schrimmer
Irvine, CA
Riveting wing skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Return Springs for Rudder Peddles |
Anyone considering adding return springs to the rudder peddles?
Some of the RV-6's I have seen sometimes have slack rudder cables after
being parked for a while.
A local RV-6A has springs installed with one spring set a little tighter
than the other instead of adding a tab to the rudder.
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Return Springs for Rudder Peddles |
Yes I have a pair of Cessna rudder springs just to keep some tension on the
cables. They attach to the pedals where the cables do. I hadn't considered
setting one tighter as a trim method, but it seems like a pretty good idea.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Return Springs for Rudder Peddles |
Hi Dave;
Actually I considered this myself and then decided I could do even better
by using another aileron trim kit from Van's to build a rudder trim. The
servo will be mounted on the center of the firewall, with the actuator arm
attached to 2 short, thin cables which will run through a small hole in the
firewall aluminium angle supports, then attached to springs which are then
attached to the rudder pedals, one on each side.
I've not yet ordered another trim kit, as I am on the home stretch and
this
is low on my priority list, but I will do it.
S. Todd Bartrim
13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (finish kit)
C-FSTB (reserved)
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Nicholson
> Sent: August 27, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV9-List: Return Springs for Rudder Peddles
>
>
> Anyone considering adding return springs to the rudder peddles?
>
> Some of the RV-6's I have seen sometimes have slack rudder cables after
> being parked for a while.
>
> A local RV-6A has springs installed with one spring set a little tighter
> than the other instead of adding a tab to the rudder.
>
> Dave
> 90347
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Return Springs for Rudder Peddles |
Dave,
I added return springs for my RV-6A rudder pedels and have had them on
for 160 hours with no problems. I like the rudder feel better and they help
keep the rudder from flapping in the wind when tied down.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Return Springs for Rudder Peddles
>
> Anyone considering adding return springs to the rudder peddles?
>
> Some of the RV-6's I have seen sometimes have slack rudder cables after
> being parked for a while.
>
> A local RV-6A has springs installed with one spring set a little tighter
> than the other instead of adding a tab to the rudder.
>
> Dave
> 90347
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil" <Phil(at)camsnet.com> |
Hello Group,
The measurement for the length of W-932DG (Drill Guide) is 5 1/32, but I
assume that
the center is 2 17/32. If the center measures 2 17/32 times 2 gives a length
of 5 1/16.
Also my T-912 Attach Brackets measure 5 1/16.
Is the drill guide hole offset from center or is it to be centered?
Best regards,
Phil Johnston
Executive Director of Internal Affairs, FCT
CAMS, Inc.
495 Village Park Drive
Powell, Ohio 43065
614.433.0415
614.433.0416
Phil(at)camsnet.com
RV-9A Kit Builder # 90329 www.vansaircraft.com
Working on the WINGS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static Air System slip fits |
I used red hi-temp RTV and it seemed to do ok. I wouldn't count on it holding the
entire force. Seemed like the tube fit nicely over the pop rivet and if you
ensure that the tube is properly tied up so it's not able to pull away from the
sidewall, then it's hard to imagine how it will come off.
On the tube issue, I just pushed and twisted and pushed some more until it was
as far on as I could get. Not much help there.
As a side note, I think the supplied pop rivets actually look very nice from the
outside. I know they have been much maligned as inferior, but they are small,
have a nice rounded head and look good to me.
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: federigo(at)pacbell.net
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:03:22 -0700
>
>Van's instructions on the Static Air System call for slipping the 1/8"
>clear plastic tubing inside of the 1/4" polypropylene tube, and then
>slipping the 1/4' tube over the 3/16" plastic Tee fitting. I was only
>able to slip a 1/4" of the tubing or Tee inside the 1/4" tubing. I tired
>lubricating the tubes with saliva and finally with rubbing alcohol, but
>neither one helped much. I also tried heating the 1/4" tube to expand
>it, but that didn't help much either. Has anyone had better luck?
>
>In an aside, the instructions say to use RTV to glue the 1/8" tube over
>the SD-42-BSLF pop rivets with RTV, but RTV does not adhere to the
>tubing. I had better luck with epoxy and a friend used ProSeal as an
>adhesive.
>Leland
>Fitting up the canopy frame
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank DWG12 |
I centered my with the assumption that 1/32" was not critical.
The other two sets of mounting holes are drilled using the Tank Baffle and
the Main Spar Pre-drilled holes as guides. This first hole is just so you
can cleco things together for the drilling operation.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" <Phil(at)camsnet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Fuel Tank DWG12
>
> Hello Group,
>
> The measurement for the length of W-932DG (Drill Guide) is 5 1/32, but I
> assume that
> the center is 2 17/32. If the center measures 2 17/32 times 2 gives a
length
> of 5 1/16.
>
> Also my T-912 Attach Brackets measure 5 1/16.
>
> Is the drill guide hole offset from center or is it to be centered?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Phil Johnston
> Executive Director of Internal Affairs, FCT
>
> CAMS, Inc.
> 495 Village Park Drive
> Powell, Ohio 43065
> 614.433.0415
> 614.433.0416
>
> Phil(at)camsnet.com
>
> RV-9A Kit Builder # 90329 www.vansaircraft.com
> Working on the WINGS
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank DWG12 |
| From: | Tom Lutgring <tlutgring(at)juno.com> |
True the measurements on the drawing do not add up to a center hole,
but it does not matter.
You have four drill guides in one of the parts bags. just center the
guide on the bracket, clamp in place and drill the hole. there is nothing
critical lengthwise on the placement of the bracket that the 1/16th inch
would affect. Have fun with the pro seal. Tom,
RV-9A Ohio, wings almost finished
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank DWG12 |
I did the same thing, spent an hour making a part that was wrong from the
plans and then saw the drill guides sitting on my bench next to me :>) Who
put those there !
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Lutgring" <tlutgring(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Fuel Tank DWG12
>
> True the measurements on the drawing do not add up to a center hole,
> but it does not matter.
> You have four drill guides in one of the parts bags. just center the
> guide on the bracket, clamp in place and drill the hole. there is nothing
> critical lengthwise on the placement of the bracket that the 1/16th inch
> would affect. Have fun with the pro seal. Tom,
> RV-9A Ohio, wings almost finished
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
Does anyone know if it's better to attach the wood dampening strips to the
front or the rear of the main gear?
With the brake line placed on the rear side, it would seem the front would
be better, but then the hose clamp that holds the fairing in place at the
top faces the front.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Leg Fairings |
I had heard someone (RVator?) say that we don't need the wood parts anymore.
Anyone know the story? I think it was one of the interview comments with Vans
people saying what they would do differently if they built another plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
Hi Gary;
My manual stated that they were optional. I figure I can always add them
later if I need them. I have heard from other sources that the shimmy that
they are there to dampen is not a problem on grass strips due to the extra
drag. Since I imagine that most of my use will be on this type of surface, I
doubt I'll ever put them in.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB (reserved)
90113
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
> I had heard someone (RVator?) say that we don't need the wood
> parts anymore.
> Anyone know the story? I think it was one of the interview
> comments with Vans
> people saying what they would do differently if they built another plane.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leg Fairings |
08/29/2002 08:39:02 PM,
Serialize complete at 08/29/2002 08:39:02 PM
Dave,
I put mine in front. The orientation of the hose clamp is unimportant
since you will cover it with the intersection faring that you will
build.
Regards
Larry Perryman
Dave Nicholson
08/28/2002 10:58 PM
Please respond to rv9-list
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
cc:
Subject: RV9-List: Leg Fairings
Does anyone know if it's better to attach the wood dampening strips to
the
front or the rear of the main gear?
With the brake line placed on the rear side, it would seem the front
would
be better, but then the hose clamp that holds the fairing in place at
the
top faces the front.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leg Fairings |
Here's the response I got from Van's this evening:
---------------------------------
On 29 Aug 02, at 7:53, Dave Nicholson wrote:
> Gus,
>
> What's the current thinking on the need for the Wood Damping Strips?
My thinking is don't do it til you fly and can determine if you need
them or not. None of Van's airplanes have them.
>
> If they're needed, is the front better than the back?
>
back is easier
> If the back side is best how do you deal with the brake line?
>
The brake line is on the front of the gear leg, so it doesn't
interfere.You can zip tie it to the gear leg when the stiffener is
installed.
Gus
-----------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Leg Fairings
>
> I had heard someone (RVator?) say that we don't need the wood parts
anymore.
> Anyone know the story? I think it was one of the interview comments with
Vans
> people saying what they would do differently if they built another plane.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
Has anyone thought about drain holes? How many, where? Size?
(Lots of discussion on priming but none I have seen on this anti corrosion
measure.)
#90360
UK
Somewhere in the fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
The tailcone already has a drain path around the tiedown hook. The baggage
compartment can drain where the flap pushrods exit. The side skins, where they
wrap around and meet the bottom skin have two thin slits that can drain. I did
add a drain hole at the back of the center cabin floor, just in front of the
spar, in case of any fuel system leaks. I'd rather have fuel drain out than
all over the cabin floor. This helps with ventilation too. You could go nuts
poking drain holes in other places, but I think if it were really necessary,
Vans would have added them by now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
>>The side skins, where they wrap around and meet the bottom skin have two
thin slits that can drain......You could go nuts poking drain holes in other
places, but I think if it were really necessary, Vans would have added them
by now. <<
Actually, I think that you should carefully consider drain holes. Vans
won't do it. The need in the Yukon is different than Arizona. It's similar
to the corrosion issue. I have put a hole at the low spot between each
bulkhead - to the unabstructed outside/bottom. The area aft of the baggage
area is suspect. A lot of water (or ice) can be trapped there well behind
the CG. A cubic foot of water can be spread out very thin in the centre/aft
fuselage - maybe less than 1 inch. Calculate a Moment for some weight (say
50 pounds) at some distance (say 10 feet) behind your CG. Comfortable ? ?
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 30% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck" <chuck(at)chuckdirect.com> |
How big should the hole(s) be?
Chuck Weyant
> >>The side skins, where they wrap around and meet the bottom skin have two
> thin slits that can drain......You could go nuts poking drain holes in
other
> places, but I think if it were really necessary, Vans would have added
them
> by now. <<
>
> Actually, I think that you should carefully consider drain holes. Vans
> won't do it. The need in the Yukon is different than Arizona. It's
similar
> to the corrosion issue. I have put a hole at the low spot between each
> bulkhead - to the unabstructed outside/bottom. The area aft of the
baggage
> area is suspect. A lot of water (or ice) can be trapped there well behind
> the CG. A cubic foot of water can be spread out very thin in the
centre/aft
> fuselage - maybe less than 1 inch. Calculate a Moment for some weight
(say
> 50 pounds) at some distance (say 10 feet) behind your CG. Comfortable ? ?
> Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
> Finish Kit 30% Complete
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
Gary et al - I think Ernest's comment is spot on . A few weeks ago I asked
Gus the same question. His reply was:
"It is not
something that is addressed in the plans so if you think that water
ingress will be a serious problem for you, adding some drain holes
is a good idea."
So I did not conclude they were taking the issue very seriously. We spend so
much time on primer wars it seems to me stopping the corrosion from wanting
to start in the first place would make some sense!. If your in Arizona I
guess this is not an issue, but here in the UK we go in for rain in a big
way The C of G issue here in the UK is less of an issue - in our MILD wet
climate - than in much of the USA where the plane may end up with blocks of
ice on board far aft of the CofG though anything is possible once!
I think probably the issue is to make sure there are holes in front of and
behind the spar, but I am concerned that the water wont migrate left to
right very easily. I am actually less concerned about water behind the aft
baggage bulkhead because here the shape of the fuselage should lead it to
the center where it has a path to run forward.
Ernest. What size did you think it necessary to make the holes. I guess a
look at a Cessna / Piper would give a clue.
Steve
#90360 UK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Newsted
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drain Holes
The tailcone already has a drain path around the tiedown hook. The baggage
compartment can drain where the flap pushrods exit. The side skins, where
they
wrap around and meet the bottom skin have two thin slits that can drain. I
did
add a drain hole at the back of the center cabin floor, just in front of the
spar, in case of any fuel system leaks. I'd rather have fuel drain out
than
all over the cabin floor. This helps with ventilation too. You could go
nuts
poking drain holes in other places, but I think if it were really necessary,
Vans would have added them by now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
Steve: Thanks for the feedback. Spars should be treated the same as any
bulkhead. If you look at where your longitudinal ribs intersect with a
bulkhead it my feeling that the little gap in the corner will let water
migrate past the rib to the low point (???). I don't think that there is
any standard on the size of draining holes. I believe that I used 1/4" in
all locations.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 30% Complete
> I think probably the issue is to make sure there are holes in front of and
> behind the spar, but I am concerned that the water wont migrate left to
> right very easily. I am actually less concerned about water behind the aft
> baggage bulkhead because here the shape of the fuselage should lead it to
> the center where it has a path to run forward.
>
> Ernest. What size did you think it necessary to make the holes. I guess a
> look at a Cessna / Piper would give a clue.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Wing strobe power supply |
From: Dennis Thomas
When I first started on my kit almost 2 years ago I bought Nav light strobe
kit from Van's that had a power supply in each wing to move that noise source
out near the wing tip. The point is that it is almost 2 years old and has
not been used. I now read the intstrutions and it tells me they should not
be left unused more than a few months and that if they are they should be ran
25% reduced power for 15 to 20 minutes to allow the power supply to reform.
I was going to power them with a 12 volt auto battery. How can I reduce the
12 volt battery by 25%?
Thanks for your help.
Dennis Thomas, wings 90164
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing strobe power supply |
Dennis,
If you like formula's (Ohm's Law) you could determine a proper resistance
value based on current and put one in-line with the power lead ( E=I*R,
I=E/R,R=E/I ). http://www.ohmslaw.com/ Or you could call them to get
recommended value. You could use a car charger directly to it set at the
lowest current setting ( mine is 2 amps ) If you have one. I doubt I would
even bother. I think they just do this out of an abundance of caution to
restore the capacitors gradually instead of hitting them hard all at once.
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: <DThomas773(at)aol.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Wing strobe power supply
>
> From: Dennis Thomas
>
> When I first started on my kit almost 2 years ago I bought Nav light
strobe
> kit from Van's that had a power supply in each wing to move that noise
source
> out near the wing tip. The point is that it is almost 2 years old and has
> not been used. I now read the intstrutions and it tells me they should
not
> be left unused more than a few months and that if they are they should be
ran
> 25% reduced power for 15 to 20 minutes to allow the power supply to
reform.
> I was going to power them with a 12 volt auto battery. How can I reduce
the
> 12 volt battery by 25%?
> Thanks for your help.
> Dennis Thomas, wings 90164
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | federigo(at)pacbell.net |
| Subject: | Circuit breaker prices |
Normally Van's has the best price on just about everything. However I
was surprised to see that Aircraft Spruce sells the Potter/Brumfield
type W31 and W58 circuit breakers and switches for about 25% less than
Van's. The Newark electronics supply catalogue lists these same breakers
for about 20% more than Van's. ACS does not carry the 35 amp
toggle/breaker.
Leland in P-Town
Ready to start cutting the canopy, if my hand can stop shaking (from
fear)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Getting Bounced From Matronics Lists... |
Dear Listers,
I have two programs I run regularly to purge the various Matronics email
lists of bad email addresses. I referred to these as my Email Weasels and
there is a daily version that is run automatically every night at midnight
and there is a and a monthly version that I run by hand at roughly 30-day
intervals.
The Daily Weasel grinds through the 8 to 10mb of bounced email that is
generated each day looking for obvious things like "user unknown", "host
unknown", and other things that usually mean the user's email address
doesn't exist any longer. The Daily Weasel has been purging 5 to 10 email
addresses each night.
The Monthly Weasel gets more serious about the task and sends a single
message to each list member with specially generated headers and content
information. Any bounces or replies to these messages are considered
errors and the email address is eligible for purging. This program is
particularly useful for "weaseling out" email addresses that are actually
being forwarded to by another email address that is subscribed to a List
and otherwise would not be identifiable. The Monthly Weasel purges roughly
100 nonexistent email addresses each month when it is run.
To check to see if your address has been removed by either of the Email
Weasel programs, you can check the Weasel Status Web Page at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If you find your email address on the Weasel List, but are certain that
everything is working fine now, simply go the Matronics Subscription page
and resubscribe your address. No harm, no foul. The subscription URL is:
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That all having been said, I've noticed that the Daily Weasel may have been
getting a little too aggressive in purging addresses recently and a number
of people have written asking if and why they'd been dropped from the List.
A couple of months ago I rewrote the Daily Weasel program to include a
wider variety of errors and more aggressively purge. One of the new purge
criteria that I added seems to occur a fair amount of the time (Connection
Deferred) even though the address is really okay.
As of today, I've removed the Connection Deferred criteria from the Daily
Weasel Rule set and this should decrease the number of "false positives"
and unnecessary unsubscribed.
Again, if you get unsubscribed by either of the Email Weasel utilities,
simply go to the subscription page and resubscribe:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KIKIDEEMAX(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | wing wiring and aileron hinges |
I'M ABOUT TO RIVET MY WING SKELETONS AND I WONDER ABOUT THE
WIRING FOR POSITION AND TAXIE LIGHTS. VANS HAS WIRING LOOM KITS. ARE THESE
TIED LINES OR CONDUIT LINES? WHICH IS BEST, SAFEST OR LIGHTEST? OR, SHOUILD
I WAIT UNTIL THE FINSHING KIT TO DO THIS?
ALSO, IT SEEMS THE AILERON BRACKET ASSY WOULD BE EASIEST RIVETED
WHILE THE REAR SPAR IS OFF THE SKELETON. WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE TO THIS?
DAVID IN DENVER #90079
WAITING TIL WIFE UNIT ISN'T LOOKING TO ORDER
THE Q/B FUSE.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | wing wiring and aileron hinges |
One thing most of us "old-slow" builders have done is to insert a conduit of
some sort into the wing before you rivet the skins on. Simply go to you
neighboorhood Lowe's, Home Depot, or Ace Hardware aviation department and
pick up a $.95 stick of PVC water pipe about 1/2" and install it in the
length of the wing. This makes running the wires in and out of the wing a
breeze. Don't I know, I just finished painting and have had the wings on
and off the plane twice during the whole finishing process.
On the aileron bracket, it's a different story for those of us who had the
wings hanging in a jig. I riveted the bracket on while the skeleton was
assembled. No problems so far.
Hope this helps,
Stein Bruch
RV6, Minneapolis
Preparing for FAA inspection!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
KIKIDEEMAX(at)aol.com
Subject: RV9-List: wing wiring and aileron hinges
I'M ABOUT TO RIVET MY WING SKELETONS AND I WONDER ABOUT THE
WIRING FOR POSITION AND TAXIE LIGHTS. VANS HAS WIRING LOOM KITS. ARE
THESE
TIED LINES OR CONDUIT LINES? WHICH IS BEST, SAFEST OR LIGHTEST? OR,
SHOUILD
I WAIT UNTIL THE FINSHING KIT TO DO THIS?
ALSO, IT SEEMS THE AILERON BRACKET ASSY WOULD BE EASIEST
RIVETED
WHILE THE REAR SPAR IS OFF THE SKELETON. WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE TO THIS?
DAVID IN DENVER #90079
WAITING TIL WIFE UNIT ISN'T LOOKING TO ORDER
THE Q/B FUSE.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Brandes <mbrandes(at)irr.com> |
| Subject: | Broken AEX Wedge - Right Elevator |
I had my first major oooppss yesterday when I managed to break my right
elevator AEX wedge into two pieces while cleaning it. This leaves me with
some issues on how to recover.
I see 3 options:
1) Use the two broken pieces, clean up the broken edges and use some
pro-seal to fill the gap. Structural issues?? There would be one rivet
that would just be for cosmetic reasons, wouldn't be holding much. The
wedge broke almost in half, so the lengths are somewhat the same.
2) Take more a larger portion off the broken ends and add in a small piece
to fill in the gap. I could then drill a hole in this 'insert' to have
something to rivet to.
3) Replace the whole piece. (I've already ordered it.) The problem with
this, however, is drilling the holes in the new wedge without buggering up
the holes in the skins. (If it has been awhile since you built the
elevator, the top skin is the only one with pre-punched holes, the wedge and
bottom skin do not.) On the plus side, I haven't dimpled those holes yet
but I'm concerned about misdrilling and ending up with some bad holes on the
bottom side.
I've emailed Van's for their suggestion but I'm open for ideas, tips or
tricks!
Matthew
RV-9A
#90569
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken AEX Wedge - Right Elevator |
Replacing it is the right way to go. Those holes are not that precise anyway
since once you've drilled and countersunk from both sides the actual rivet hole
is usually a little larger than the rivet. The pair of dimpled skins snug it
up. Having one un-drilled panel makes re-drilling a snap (oops, shouldn't use
that word... ;
) Everybody has fun with trailing edges, you're in good
company.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Broken AEX Wedge - Right Elevator |
Replace the broken AEX!!
They aren't expensive, but they are important to the strength and alignment
of the elevator. (Treat all control surfaces with respect. They're all
you've got to get back on the ground and they are the "weak spot" compared
to the rest of the airplane.)
When you drill the new AEX, use your Drill Angle Guide (DWG 5) to hold the
drill at the proper angle.
I wouldn't use the lower skin, only the upper skin when you are drilling the
replacement AEX since you don't want to make the skin holes any bigger than
they are already and you might not have the new angle just right which could
distort the lower skin hole.
The process of countersinking the AEX will make the holes quite a bit larger
than the standard #40 drill in order to provide room for the two dimpled
skins. This enlarged, countersunk hole in the AEX will accommodate quite a
bit of "bad drilling angle" so everything will come out straight and smooth.
When you rivet the two skins with the AEX in between, take advantage of the
methods discussed in several posting on the list (check the archives).
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Crandell <rwc(at)swcp.com> |
| Subject: | need 6 platenuts |
Does anyone have six ms21053L08K platenuts (anchor nuts) which you would
sell? These are single eared, 8-32, countersunk, black steel
platenuts. I have tired all sources and no one stocks them. If they
special order, they have a large minimum order quantity. Yes, there are
other options to these, but these would work the best for my specific
application. I am building an RV6A. I hope to finish by March 2003.
Thanks
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Streit" <wooody98(at)directvinternet.com> |
On Tue, 03 September 2002, Roger Crandell wrote:
> Just give vans a call. They have all kinds of then
in stock and can mail them out to you in a day or two.
Jim Streit
90073
fuse
> -- RV9-List message posted by: Roger Crandell
> rwc(at)swcp.com
>
> Does anyone have six ms21053L08K platenuts (anchor
> nuts) which you would
> sell? These are single eared, 8-32, countersunk,
black
> steel
> platenuts. I have tired all sources and no one stocks
> them. If they
> special order, they have a large minimum order
> quantity. Yes, there are
> other options to these, but these would work the best
> for my specific
> application. I am building an RV6A. I hope to finish
> by March 2003.
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> Contributions of
any
> other form
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv9-list
href="http://mail.directvinternet.com//jump/http://www.matronics.com/search">http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/rv9-list
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> http://www.matronics.com/
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fabian Lefler" <fablef(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Modular Instrument Panel |
I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you whom have
called
me and/or e-mailed me to inquire about my Modular Instrument Panel,
after it
was featured on Doug Reeeve's website on August 27.
As promised, the website is ready and we have started filling our
orders.
The website is being held, temporarily, at a remote site
http://www.rdwy.com/affordablepanels/ until on-line ordering is put in
place. The website content has been designed to answer the majority of
the
questions we have received. However, we would like to hear from anyone
who
has visited the website and has additional input as to how to make it
better.
Regards,
Fabian Lefler
RV-9A (90292)
N292FL (Reserved)
fablef(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fabian Lefler" <fablef(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV7-List: Re: RV-List: Modular Instrument Panel |
Dan,
No tip-ups, yet.
The main advantage of my Modular Panel is the accessibility is provides to
the back of the instruments and/or the avionics stack, if needed. Another
advantage is that major panel layouts changes, say going from steam gauges
to a Blue Mountain or alike, can be easily accomplished by replacing the
panel plates. For the tip-ups, accessibility to the back of the panel is
not an issue, so I didn't think that enough builders would be interested in
spending the extra money for just one advantage. That may change though.
To give you an idea how inexpensive it is to change the layout of an
airplane with this modular system, I sell replacement plates for the left
side (pilot) for $80 and the right side (co-pilot) for $60. So if a builder
ever decides to replace their steam gauges for a $10,000 Blue Mountain
system, they'll have to allocate an additional $80.00 and/or $60 for the
plate. Kidding aside, the big advantage is that the cutting, fiddling and
painting of the replacement plate can be accomplished at the shop, while the
airplane remains flying. Very little downtime.
Regards,
Fabian
RV-9A (90292)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: RV7-List: Re: RV-List: Modular Instrument Panel
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
>
> Nice. The web site mentions it supports RV-7 and RV-9 sliders. How about
> tip-ups?
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (wings 99.9999% running out of 9s)
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fabian Lefler" <fablef(at)bellsouth.net>
> To:
> Subject: RV-List: Modular Instrument Panel
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Fabian Lefler"
> >
> > I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you whom have
> called
> > me and/or e-mailed me to inquire about my Modular Instrument Panel,
after
> it
> > was featured on Doug Reeeve's website on August 27.
> >
> > As promised, the website is ready and we have started filling our
orders.
> > The website is being held, temporarily, at a remote site
> > http://www.rdwy.com/affordablepanels/ until on-line ordering is put in
> > place. The website content has been designed to answer the majority of
> the
> > questions we have received. However, we would like to hear from anyone
> who
> > has visited the website and has additional input as to how to make it
> > better.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Fabian Lefler
> > RV-9A (90292)
> > N292FL (Reserved)
> > fablef(at)bellsouth.net
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Modular Instrument Panel |
on 9/5/02 10:39 AM, Fabian Lefler at fablef(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you whom have
> called
> me and/or e-mailed me to inquire about my Modular Instrument Panel,
> after it
Fabian,
I notice your panel doesn't seem to have the bend at the bottom for
stiffnesslike Van's standard panel. Does the extra thickness of your panel
and frame keep it as stiff as Van's panel along the bottom or do you have to
reinforce it with a piece of angle.
Mark Schrimmer
Still finishing wings
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fabian Lefler" <fablef(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Modular Instrument Panel |
Mark,
The frame must remain flexible during installation. If you look at the
picture you will notice the frame is solid in the location where Van's
air-vents would typically be placed. If it was rigid, it would be
impossible to take in and out of the Fuselage.
After the nutplates for the panel plates are riveted to the frame, and the
frame has been located in the fuselage, we rivet a piece of 0.063 X3/4"X3/4"
along the bottom to give the frame the same rigidity of the stock panel.
The panel plates will increase the rigidity of the frame when they are ready
to go on.
Fabian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Modular Instrument Panel
>
> on 9/5/02 10:39 AM, Fabian Lefler at fablef(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> >
> > I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you whom have
> > called
> > me and/or e-mailed me to inquire about my Modular Instrument Panel,
> > after it
>
> Fabian,
>
> I notice your panel doesn't seem to have the bend at the bottom for
> stiffnesslike Van's standard panel. Does the extra thickness of your panel
> and frame keep it as stiff as Van's panel along the bottom or do you have
to
> reinforce it with a piece of angle.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> Still finishing wings
> Irvine, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | a Barry's Heads Up: Comant antennaes |
Comant's web site, www.comant.com , has a list of all their antennaes,
with pictures and pdf drawings of the bases.
This is helpful when making doublers, for mounting purposes.
Barry Pote RV9a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Tank rear baffle sealing |
I remember from my old -6A days and the -6 Orndorff video I have that
when you rivet the rear baffle on to the tank you should then use wood
strips with a cut in them to slide over the baffle flange / skin joint
to hold it for a few days.
In the instruction guide for the -9 it says to squeeze out any excess
proseal with a c clamp or something but doesn't say anything about
holding with a wood clamp.
I tried looking at a bunch of web sites and there are some that say to
clecoe the tank on to the spar to hold in the inverted position while it
dries.
I tried searching the archives but there are thousands of messages on
tanks and I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.
So- I haven't pro-sealed the rear baffle yet but tried a clecoe in the
tank / spar screw holes. The holes are too big for a #30 clecoe to hold
and too small for the next size up. Maybe folks that did it that way
hadn't drilled out the holes and dimpled them yet and or perhaps hadn't
installed the platenuts on the spar yet. In any case, I have and the
clecoe idea won't work.
Any thoughts on what is current best practice for the tank after having
just riveted the rear baffle on? I'm looking forward to being done with
Proseal.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tank rear baffle sealing |
Personally, I would stick a few screws in place to hold it nose-up on the spar
while curing. The idea here is twofold. First, ProSeal is rubbery gunk as you
know well. Having it sit nose-up will allow fillets to form better along the
rear panel. Secondly, by pulling it tight with some screws, you avoid the
suprise that some builders report where the thickness of the ProSeal made the
skins stick up too high. After a couple hours, there's no fixing it.
ProSeal.... I wonder if there is a NoviceSeal?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "robert" <rscott(at)johnsonmfginc.com> |
Gary, this is an old post but I was wondering if you have decided to go
with the Archer Ant. or a standard V. I keep going back and forth on this
one. I purchased the Comant 215 and started to mold fairings for the VS tip.
However, almost all photos I see of RV's, they do not have a Ant. on the VS.
Any further thoughts on the subject?
Robert Scott
Tail almost finished
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Antennas
>
> I bought a pair of Archers; was shocked to find out how trivial they are
for the
> price, but then again, what's an antenna but a piece of wire cut to a
specific
> length? Since then, I have chosen not to use the comm antenna. These
need to
> be vertically oriented as much as possible inside the wingtip. In the 9
tips,
> this amounts to, not much... Since I needed a second comm antenna anyway,
I
> bought a Comant and liked it so much I bought another. The Archer will be
a
> flea market item. This also eliminated about three pounds of coax
running all
> the way to the wingtip. I also don't like the idea of having to add foam
or
> other such support in the wingtip, nor running an antenna so close to the
> strobe.
>
> I am still thinking of using the NAV antenna, although nobody has been
able to
> answer my question about whether it is suitable as a GS/LOC antenna too?
My
> Apollo SL30 has just a single NAV antenna input so no splitters are
required,
> but is the antenna suitable? I would prefer to lose this antenna too,
but the
> options seem to be a Vee on the VS which I did not plan for. In short,
you can
> probably make the Archers work OK, but I'm not impressed.
>
> Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
on 9/6/02 11:13 AM, robert at rscott(at)johnsonmfginc.com wrote:
>
> Gary, this is an old post but I was wondering if you have decided to go
> with the Archer Ant. or a standard V. I keep going back and forth on this
> one. I purchased the Comant 215 and started to mold fairings for the VS tip.
> However, almost all photos I see of RV's, they do not have a Ant. on the VS.
> Any further thoughts on the subject?
>
> Robert Scott
> Tail almost finished
>
Robert,
I'm not Gary, but I thought I'd mention another mounting option. I've seen
several Southern California RVs with the V antenna mounted on the bottom of
the fuselage, back near the tail. At first I thought the antenna was likely
to get damaged there, but the owners of these planes say that isn't a
problem. The horizontal stabilizer keeps people from walking into the
antenna. I'm still leaning toward the Archer antenna in the wing, but this
would probably be my second choice.
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
I'm going to give the Bob Archer wingtip NAV antenna a try, but I scrapped the
COM one in favor of a pair of belly-mounted Comants. I needed two Coms anyway
and I liked the Comant a lot. The wingtip COM antennas require vertical
orientation which I did not feel good about in these wingtips. If I decide to
lose the Archer NAV one too, I'll probably do a flying V of some sort on the
fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Matco Parking Brake Valve |
Anyone fitted the parking brake valve yet? I'd like to know where best
to mount it and how to plumb it, what fittings to use etc.Is the
F-6122-1 trigear brake bracket utilised somehow?
Next question, how do you get the F-989 elevator pushrod in under all
that bulkhead gubbins without bending the thing beyond what's
natural..and I haven't even fitted the rod ends on yet.
When you fit the wingtips on, make sure you have the ailerons locked in
trail with the bellcrank template in position before you start match
drilling through the wing skins into the tip...and clamp that tip to the
ailerons too! I found out the hard way that it doesn't take a little
inattention for the tip to end up badly out of trail with the aileron!
Roy.
Deep in the Fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Matco Parking Brake Valve |
Yeah, Roy, I used the Matco parking brake valve and mounted it on the
trigear brake bracket in the location shown on the drawiings.
It worked out fine. I will send you a picture or two, off list.
The pushrod is a very tight fit. You feel like you are abusing it
getting it in. It takes a little scraping and bending, something none
of us are in favor of. Try to only do it once, and be as careful as you
can.
Gary
Anyone fitted the parking brake valve yet? I'd like to know where best
to mount it and how to plumb it, what fittings to use etc.Is the
F-6122-1 trigear brake bracket utilised somehow?
Next question, how do you get the F-989 elevator pushrod in under all
that bulkhead gubbins without bending the thing beyond what's
natural..and I haven't even fitted the rod ends on yet.
When you fit the wingtips on, make sure you have the ailerons locked
in
trail with the bellcrank template in position before you start match
drilling through the wing skins into the tip...and clamp that tip to
the
ailerons too! I found out the hard way that it doesn't take a little
inattention for the tip to end up badly out of trail with the aileron!
Roy.
Deep in the Fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Rudder Pedal Return Springs |
From time to time the issue of what to do about slack rudder cables comes up
on the list. Some builders have used springs, etc. to keep the pedals
forward and remove slack but a buddy last week proposed a different
solution. We tied the rudder pedals together with a 3/32" cable on the
forward side of the firewall. Ran a cable from the left outboard pedal
hinge bolt thru a snap bushing in the firewall around a 2" pulley to a
compression spring. Did the same thing for the pilot's right rudder
pedal-from the right inboard hinge point thru the firewall around a pulley
to the same compression spring. There is just enough compression on the
spring that you have to tug on the rudder cables at the rear of the fuse to
get the rudder cable bolts in. Works great, keeps every thing on the left
side of the firewall where it is east to inspect and put enough drag on the
rudder that it won't get blown around easily. Next I'll make a gust lock
that will hold the pedals together and lock the rudder while parked.
BTW, I rolled the fuse out of the garage last week and started up the O-320.
Runs good, sounds great and now I'm really ready to get in the air. The EI
engine instruments go through a little turn on procedure that looks like a
starship bridge with all the lights flashing and bar graphs going up and
down. Wild.
Albert Gardner, Yuma, AZ
RV-9A: N872RV
Working on panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal Return Springs |
Check this link for just about the simplest, easiest, lightest and least
expensive rudder gust lock I've ever seen.
http://bmnellis.com/BuilderIdeas.htm#gust%20lock
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Rudder Pedal Return Springs
>
> From time to time the issue of what to do about slack rudder cables comes
up
> on the list. Some builders have used springs, etc. to keep the pedals
> forward and remove slack but a buddy last week proposed a different
> solution. We tied the rudder pedals together with a 3/32" cable on the
> forward side of the firewall. Ran a cable from the left outboard pedal
> hinge bolt thru a snap bushing in the firewall around a 2" pulley to a
> compression spring. Did the same thing for the pilot's right rudder
> pedal-from the right inboard hinge point thru the firewall around a pulley
> to the same compression spring. There is just enough compression on the
> spring that you have to tug on the rudder cables at the rear of the fuse
to
> get the rudder cable bolts in. Works great, keeps every thing on the left
> side of the firewall where it is east to inspect and put enough drag on
the
> rudder that it won't get blown around easily. Next I'll make a gust lock
> that will hold the pedals together and lock the rudder while parked.
>
> BTW, I rolled the fuse out of the garage last week and started up the
O-320.
> Runs good, sounds great and now I'm really ready to get in the air. The EI
> engine instruments go through a little turn on procedure that looks like a
> starship bridge with all the lights flashing and bar graphs going up and
> down. Wild.
> Albert Gardner, Yuma, AZ
> RV-9A: N872RV
> Working on panel
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com> |
Gary, thanks for the pics...that makes it very clear how it works and
where it goes. I also had another go at the elevator pushrod and in fact
it fits OK if you cut it to the right length first!.....what a plonker!
Roy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
Ok, I sealed up the baffle on the left tank. Everything seemed to go
real well until I placed the tank on the spar.
The tank has a increasing gap from zero at the inboard end to about a
1/16" gap at the outboard end.It's enough that the holes to the splice
piece don't line up and the screws into the platenuts on the spar don't
want to go in after about half way up the tank from the inboard end.
They go in easy at the inboard side.
I didn't fully coat the tank baffle brackets per the instructions so am
surpised if it is too much proseal. I suppose there could be too much
between the ribs and the skin although the rivets went in real nice
there. All the rivets to the tank from the baffle went in nice.
Now what. Is there some fix to this or do I either live with the gap or
start all over.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Has anyone been successful at dimpling the T 901 tank skin and the T 902
baffle ? I know the reason the manual calls for machine countersinking
the skin is to make it easier to slide the skin in.
The .032 skin is at the very minimum for mach. C/S. If this is the only
way then I would think a back up (simular to what other builders use for
C/S'ing the main spar for the platenuts) would be called for.
Gene....... Wings N557RV res.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Curt...... I assume the gap you are referring to is between the tank
skin and wing skin. I had a little variation in that gap, from near
zero to maybe between 1/32 and 1/16. I was able to pull it together to
where the screws all fit reasonably well, and it looked okay.
You may try carefully pulling the tank down with a nylon tiedown strap
or ratchet tiedown. There is a little flexiblity in the Z-brackets,
spar web, tank ribs. I would take it easy, though, and make sure you
pad the strap and hardware with something so you don't injure the skin.
Get the bolts thru the spar started into the Z-brackets before you pull
on it. Once you get the screws in and snugged down into the dimples,
things should relax, some at least. My proseal took many days to harden
(weeks, even?) so leave it sit for a long while after you get it
together.
I would say the gap would go unnoticed, if you can get the screws to
seat down into the dimples fairly well. Hope it works out for you.
Gary
Ok, I sealed up the baffle on the left tank. Everything seemed to go
real well until I placed the tank on the spar.
The tank has a increasing gap from zero at the inboard end to about a
1/16" gap at the outboard end.It's enough that the holes to the splice
piece don't line up and the screws into the platenuts on the spar
don't
want to go in after about half way up the tank from the inboard end.
They go in easy at the inboard side.
I didn't fully coat the tank baffle brackets per the instructions so
am
surpised if it is too much proseal. I suppose there could be too much
between the ribs and the skin although the rivets went in real nice
there. All the rivets to the tank from the baffle went in nice.
Now what. Is there some fix to this or do I either live with the gap
or
start all over.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal Return Springs |
Albert........sounds pretty neat. Did you do anything to seal the holes
in the snap bushings thru the firewall?
Gary
>From time to time the issue of what to do about slack rudder cables
comes up
on the list. Some builders have used springs, etc. to keep the pedals
forward and remove slack but a buddy last week proposed a different
solution. We tied the rudder pedals together with a 3/32" cable on the
forward side of the firewall................
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal Return Springs and tip-up canopy hinges |
Mike......that is a great gust lock. Very sanitary.
The only argument I know of for still adding something up front to keep
some tension in the rudder cables is to prevent the possiblity of a
slack cable getting hung up in the flap arm. Art Chard installed little
sheet metal hooks to hold the cables up and prevent this. This is
unlikely to happen in flight, however, unless you hook your foot on a
pedal and pull it back.
I may send you my modification of the mechanism for latching the tip-up
canopy hinge pins for inclusion in your "nifty ideas" section. I moved
the handle out of the panel, and installed it vertically in the
bellcrank so you turn it to operate the pins, instead of pulling the
lever. I didn't want it acessible in flight to a passenger, and this
way I can safety it in place as well.
Gary
Check this link for just about the simplest, easiest, lightest and
least
expensive rudder gust lock I've ever seen.
http://bmnellis.com/BuilderIdeas.htm#gust%20lock
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
Hello Gene,
You have to be careful on the inboard end because of the rivet tail
clearance to the main spar. If I recall, there is very little clearance
between the rear tank baffle flange and the machined bars on the main
spar for the first few inches on the inboard end. It seems that I had to
squeeze a few rivets a little extra to make sure there was no contact to
the spar bar. If you dimpled both the skin and baffle, I'm not sure that
you would have clearance for the rivet tails on the inboard end. Having
these countersunk also made the installation of the rear baffle much
simpler by allowing it to slide into place. It also made for a very
smooth top skin surface.
Todd Houg
Inverted cleco canoe!
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene [SMTP:gene(at)nvaircraft.com]
Subject: RV9-List: Fuel Tanks
Has anyone been successful at dimpling the T 901 tank skin and the T 902
baffle ? I know the reason the manual calls for machine countersinking
the skin is to make it easier to slide the skin in.
The .032 skin is at the very minimum for mach. C/S. If this is the only
way then I would think a back up (simular to what other builders use for
C/S'ing the main spar for the platenuts) would be called for.
Gene....... Wings N557RV res.
=
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Matco Parking Brake Valve |
Roy,
I have put some pictures of my Matco Parking Brake Valve installation on
this web page:
http://my.execpc.com/~cjh/brake_valve.html
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Working on instrument panel but no money for avionics yet.
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RV9-List: Matco Parking Brake Valve
Anyone fitted the parking brake valve yet? I'd like to know where best
to mount it and how to plumb it, what fittings to use etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
Dimpling T-901 Tank Skin will make it extremely hard to get the T-902 Tank
Baffle into place.
There is very little flexibility in the Tank Skin close to the Tank Ribs.
Counter Sink those holes and move on. The rivets are just there to hold
things together until the "glue" dries and a countersink is smother than a
dimple if done correctly.
Dave
90347
Finishing Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Fuel Tanks
>
> Has anyone been successful at dimpling the T 901 tank skin and the T 902
> baffle ? I know the reason the manual calls for machine countersinking
> the skin is to make it easier to slide the skin in.
> The .032 skin is at the very minimum for mach. C/S. If this is the only
> way then I would think a back up (simular to what other builders use for
> C/S'ing the main spar for the platenuts) would be called for.
>
> Gene....... Wings N557RV res.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal Return Springs |
I used a snap bushing that had a 1/8" ID and a 1/4" OD. There is very little
hole to seal with the 3/32" cable I used so I think I'll leave it at that. I
think I'll use the gust lock on the rudder rather than on the pedals as I
had planned. It looks much simpler. Thanks Mike.
Albert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Rudder Pedal Return Springs
>
> Albert........sounds pretty neat. Did you do anything to seal the holes
> in the snap bushings thru the firewall?
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> >From time to time the issue of what to do about slack rudder cables
> comes up
> on the list. Some builders have used springs, etc. to keep the pedals
> forward and remove slack but a buddy last week proposed a different
> solution. We tied the rudder pedals together with a 3/32" cable on the
> forward side of the firewall................
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Thanks Dave, that's what will need to be done. After posting I realized
the baffle would serve as a back-up for the pilot on the countersink.
Gene........ N557RV res.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
With the right angle in the flanges at the top, the flanges face to the
left. Surely they should face to the right as shown on the plans. Do I have
a 'mirror image' part? Has anyone else had this problem (or other mirror
image parts)? Am I missing something?
Thanks Steve.
QB#90360
N Yorks., UK
Fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Matco Parking Brake Valve |
Roy - I have found Chris H's page VERY useful.
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
Look at his bit on the Matco valve. I am following his approach.
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy Taylor
Subject: RV9-List: Matco Parking Brake Valve
Anyone fitted the parking brake valve yet? I'd like to know where best
to mount it and how to plumb it, what fittings to use etc.Is the
F-6122-1 trigear brake bracket utilised somehow?
Next question, how do you get the F-989 elevator pushrod in under all
that bulkhead gubbins without bending the thing beyond what's
natural..and I haven't even fitted the rod ends on yet.
When you fit the wingtips on, make sure you have the ailerons locked in
trail with the bellcrank template in position before you start match
drilling through the wing skins into the tip...and clamp that tip to the
ailerons too! I found out the hard way that it doesn't take a little
inattention for the tip to end up badly out of trail with the aileron!
Roy.
Deep in the Fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
Steve......I have not looked it up to see what an F-643-1 is, but I did
have a tank baffle that was bent wrong. The top flange has a different
angle than the bottom flange, and the hole spacing on top is different
than on the bottom, so I could not reverse it. Van's cheerfully sent me
a new one.
What is the part you are referring to?
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:06 AM
Subject: RV9-List: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only
With the right angle in the flanges at the top, the flanges face to
the
left. Surely they should face to the right as shown on the plans. Do I
have
a 'mirror image' part? Has anyone else had this problem (or other
mirror
image parts)? Am I missing something?
Thanks Steve.
QB#90360
N Yorks., UK
Fuse
=
=
messages.
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
It only applies to the tip up. It's the center bar running between the front
of the canopy and the firewall supporting the top skin. Plan 24 or 24a from
memory. I wonder how they do the bending. Is it automated or do some poor
sods sit there doing it? If the latter I can understand why I have a back to
front one!
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Subject: Re: RV9-List: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only
Steve......I have not looked it up to see what an F-643-1 is, but I did
have a tank baffle that was bent wrong. The top flange has a different
angle than the bottom flange, and the hole spacing on top is different
than on the bottom, so I could not reverse it. Van's cheerfully sent me
a new one.
What is the part you are referring to?
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:06 AM
Subject: RV9-List: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only
With the right angle in the flanges at the top, the flanges face to
the
left. Surely they should face to the right as shown on the plans. Do I
have
a 'mirror image' part? Has anyone else had this problem (or other
mirror
image parts)? Am I missing something?
Thanks Steve.
QB#90360
N Yorks., UK
Fuse
=
=
messages.
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
09/09/2002 11:21:07 PM,
Serialize complete at 09/09/2002 11:21:07 PM
Steve,
According to the parts list on Van's web site, that is the Channel -
Canopy Mount. They do not list a right and left unless the next item
F-644 which has the same description but a different price is the
opposite part. An e-mail to Vans might clear up the problem.
Regards
Larry Perryman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
Steve: I just went and looked at my F643-1. The flanges are on the
right-hand side. Both flanges are bent to 90 degrees.
I don't remember clearly, but it is possible that I had to adjust the
flanges to 90 degrees (like many of the bulkheads and ribs in the kit.)
How far off is it? If it's a little, I'd adjust it with a sheet metal
brake or the seaming pliers and install it. If it is way off, and I
couldn't find a sheet metal brake, I'd talk to Van's for a replacement.
When you get to fitting the canopy frame to the fusealge, email me.
There are some things in the manual that will lead to grief in getting
it to open without hanging up on the front skin. I can explain how to
do it when you get to that point. Also fitting the rear of the canopy
to the roll bar requires some tricks to make it work real slick. And
you need guides that engage the canopy latch fingers, and guide them
into the holes in the gussets, so that the plexi won't hit the roll bar
if you close it less than very carefully. It is easy to fix. I can
send you some pictures when you are ready.
I am glad to see you chose the much more elegant and superior tip-up.
Good choice.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: RV9-List: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only
It only applies to the tip up. It's the center bar running between the
front
of the canopy and the firewall supporting the top skin. Plan 24 or 24a
from
memory. I wonder how they do the bending. Is it automated or do some
poor
sods sit there doing it? If the latter I can understand why I have a
back to
front one!
Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: F-643-1 Please advise / Relates to tip RV9 only |
>
>I am glad to see you chose the much more elegant and superior tip-up.
>Good choice.
Elegant, Elegant.... hey wait a min... You'll be poached RVer under your big bubble
when the summer sun hits! all the while us slider jocks will cooly taxi by
waving to the crowds... :)
Thanks for the humor Gary!
PS, I think the slider macho comes out as soon as you have to pickup the cutoff
disk and slice directly through the canopy to cut yourself a slider...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | johncclarkva(at)cs.com |
NTSB Identification: NYC02LA182
Accident occurred Thursday, September 05, 2002 at Oxford, OH
Aircraft:Duffy Vans RV-9A, registration: N945D
Injuries: 1 Serious, 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On September 5, 2002, at 2137 eastern daylight time, a homebuilt Vans RV-9A,
N945D, was substantially damaged during a forced landing in Oxford, Ohio.
The certificated private pilot was seriously injured, and his passenger was
uninjured. Visual instrument conditions prevailed at the time. No flight
plan had been filed for the local flight, which originated at Miami
University Airport (OXF), Oxford, Ohio. The personal flight was conducted
under 14 CFR Part 91.
According to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, the pilot
advised Cincinnati Approach Control on an emergency frequency that he was
"going down" due to a loss of engine power. During the forced landing, the
airplane flipped onto its back.
After the accident, the pilot stated that he had run out of fuel, and a
subsequent examination of the airplane confirmed the absence of fuel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Yes, the secret is out. Van's has options for other canopy tints. I
had to ask to find out, and the first time I did, Ken Scott tried to
talk me out of it. Said it would take forever to get, and it would be
too dark for night flying. I disagree.
I am very please with the color, though it has not been outside yet. I
am sure it will not be too dark, but it has enough tint that it is
obvious. The standard canopies are so light, it is difficult to discern
any tint. I think they said the standard is 79% light transmission, and
the next darker is 55%. But neither one looks that dark to me.
I am not sure of the name of the guy in purchasing ( I think it might
have been Darrell.) who was happy to help me with the special order, but
ask for the guy who handles canopy purchasing. ) It costs about $100
more, and they need 6 weeks or so lead time, but the finish kits are
that long of a wait anyway.
I am sure glad I went that way, if for nothing more than appearance.
And of course to be COOL.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Schrimmer
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: canopys
on 9/10/02 8:49 AM, Gary at rv9er(at)3rivers.net wrote:
>
> Oh, Andy, I forgot to mention......I also ordered the darker tint
> canopy for my tip-up. How cool is that?
>
Gary,
What's the story on the darker tint? Do you get it from Van's? Special
Order? How much darker?
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Raynal" <dicel87(at)coastalnow.net> |
I have been reading, researching, and many times just plain day dreaming
about building an aircraft. The two that I seem to be most interested
in are the RV-9A and the Zenith CH-601 XL. Both seem to be similar in
many respects, each has a very devoted group of enthusiasts and each is
made by a reputable company with proven track records.
As I read about these two aircraft one of the fundamental construction
differences seems to be the type of rivets used (i.e. the blind rivet in
the XL and the AN rivet in the RV). In so far as construction time is
concerned, I get the impression that setting the AN rivets is one of the
most time consuming parts of RV construction and conversely, the use of
the blind rivet contributes to the shorter build time for the XL.
So....remember this is my novice mind at work here and I do not wish to
be burned at the stake for being a heretic......if both aircraft are of
a sound design with dozens of each type flying daily, then why is it
not feasible to use blind rivets in the construction of the RV and
reduce the construction time significantly?? (I understand the arguments
that will be made for appearance sake and cost per rivet)
Thanks for a great forum!
Scott
Empty garage, empty bank account, 0% started. :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Novice Question |
Scott,
I have built two wings and the empanage for a 601 and am completing an RV-9A
(flying in a few weeks).
The difference is not in the type of rivets but rather in the part count for
each. The RV has a much higher part count. The 601 has a more difficult
layout since every hole must be measured and laid out. The RV is pre punched
and AWAYS lines up. If it doesn't line up, you have probably done something
wrong.
The missions of the two planes are not the same. The 601 is a much slower
plane and not designed for aerobatics like the RV series is.
Price wise they are about the same if I remember the last pricing I looked
at for the 601.
It boils down to what you want when you are through. A good utility plane
that will cruse with the Cherokees or something faster for traveling.
The 601 will take 600 - 1000 hours to complete. The RV will take 1200 to
2000 hours to complete.
Both planes will beat the socks off the SPAM CANS for fuel consumption per
mile traveled.
Building with the "Pulled Rivets" on an RV but doing driven rivets is no
harder nor does it take longer once you get use to doing it. There are just
a bunch more of them in the RV compared to the 601
If you want something else to look at, check out the Sonex for performance
and speed. It ain't bad either and beats both on price. Talk about a reduced
parts count.
Well you pays your money and takes your chances.
For what it is worth, my .02 cents worth
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL 90288
Passed DAR - Flying soon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vans vs Zenith |
>rivet. Blind riveting involves many fewer steps.
I have thought this over during the process of preparing and setting 15,000 rivets
on my RV. The thing is, you still have to drill the hole (with no pre punched
computer done pattern), you have to deburr both sides, you have to prime,
cleco, uncleco, pull the blind rivet, possibly grind the mandrel end that broke
off proud of the rivet head...
So you really only save dimpling, and exchange a different rivet method.
But in the end you get this really nice smooth surface to run your polishing cloth
over while standing around the airshows! :)
- Andy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Crandell <rwc(at)swcp.com> |
| Subject: | IK-2000 Flight & Engine Monitor |
Does anyone have pictures of the IK-2000 Flight & Engine Monitor
installed in your
instrument panel? I am strongly considering installing this unit in my
RV6 and was interested
in seeing what others have done.
Thanks
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jacobs" <jjrv9a(at)hotmail.com> |
Today, I received my Modular Instrument Panel from Affordable Panels, and
all I can say is WOW!!!
I was very impressed with the panel kit. I feel like I just stroke gold. I
mean, even the packaging was superb. I swear I fondle the pieces for an
hour before I put them back in the box.
Being the cheapest bastard that ever lived, I couldn't bring myself to spend
any extra money on a panel. After all, you get one from Van's in the kit.
But after seeing my friends at the airport under their panels on an almost
daily basis, I thought forget that. I am getting this panel. As a matter
of fact, I am sending Van his panel back for a $40 credit (I hope).
I have spent a small fortune in this kit already and the bird is getting a
very basic VFR panel with an IFR upgrade in the not so near future when
funds allow it.
The gentleman I spoke to over the phone when I ordered the panel kit, said
my panel was the third one shipped to New Jersey alone. Has anyone else on
the list gotten one of these things?
John
RV-9A
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
Here Here. This thing is the greatest thing since ..... (you fill in the blank).
I'm just finishing up my install tonight. The process was easy as can be to drill
out and install and everything fits perfectly. Fabian Lefler has a great product
with this one!
You can see pictures of my install on the website at http://www.karmy.com/rv9a
Now for the spooky part... I designed my panel from scratch in a cad system. ploted
it all out and cut the factory panel before I found out about the new Modular
panel. I had even cut the sub panel cutouts to match the radios and map box.
When I finished my original panel cutouts I found the radio stack to be off
by 1/4" to the side from the sub panel cutout. Man I was bummed. When I got
the modular panel I bolted it up, and the radio cutout in the subpanel hits directly
centered in the new factory cut of the modular panel. I couldn't believe
it. It was Destiny! :)
I also really like the switch panel being off the main panel as it is now possible
to wire in all the switches and still have easy removal of the main panel
sections. Check it out. It's worth the look.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Seattle WA
Modular Panel installation...
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "John Jacobs" <jjrv9a(at)hotmail.com>
>Has anyone else on
>the list gotten one of these things?
>
>John
>RV-9A
>Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Jacobs" <jjrv9a(at)hotmail.com> |
Andy
Thanks for your comments Andy. I guess I just couldn't believe what I was
seeing when I opened the box, and immediately wonder if there was a catch to
all this. I am glad someone agrees.
I checked out your website and it is great!!! I'll check out your panel
installation page on a daily basis for tips and suggestions. I have a few
weeks before I am ready to install mine.
Good Luck!
John
(Still cheap)
RV-9a
Fuselage
>From: "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com>
>Reply-To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RV9-List: Panel
>Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:40:18 -0500
>
>
>Here Here. This thing is the greatest thing since ..... (you fill in the
>blank).
>
>I'm just finishing up my install tonight. The process was easy as can be to
>drill out and install and everything fits perfectly. Fabian Lefler has a
>great product with this one!
>
>You can see pictures of my install on the website at
>http://www.karmy.com/rv9a
>
>Now for the spooky part... I designed my panel from scratch in a cad
>system. ploted it all out and cut the factory panel before I found out
>about the new Modular panel. I had even cut the sub panel cutouts to match
>the radios and map box. When I finished my original panel cutouts I found
>the radio stack to be off by 1/4" to the side from the sub panel cutout.
>Man I was bummed. When I got the modular panel I bolted it up, and the
>radio cutout in the subpanel hits directly centered in the new factory cut
>of the modular panel. I couldn't believe it. It was Destiny! :)
>
>I also really like the switch panel being off the main panel as it is now
>possible to wire in all the switches and still have easy removal of the
>main panel sections. Check it out. It's worth the look.
>
>- Andy Karmy
> RV9A - Seattle WA
> Modular Panel installation...
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: "John Jacobs" <jjrv9a(at)hotmail.com>
>
> >Has anyone else on
> >the list gotten one of these things?
> >
> >John
> >RV-9A
> >Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | electric fuel pumps for carbs |
I have a carburated engine, a Chevy V6.
The motor mount will not allow the use of a mechanical fuel pump.
I was going to use 2 of Van's Facet, solid state, ES 40108 pumps. This
is similar to the old one he sold, but it has 37 degree bungs on it.
I was going to use one for normal, and one for boost.
Some people, however, when 'walking in my shoes', choose to use one
solid state pump like the 40108 and one 'interrupter' pump, like the
Facet 480545 interrupter (40131e) (looks like a Bendix pump from the
60's).
If the small solid state pump has the psi and the gallons per hour to do
the job, why not use 2 of them?
What's so special about an interrupter pump?
Barry Pote RV9a finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Carillon <Carillon(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vans vs Zenith |
Scott :
I have a Zenith 601HDS ready to fly minus FAA inspection and paint, Stratus
Subaru and many extras if you are interested.
Do not archieve
John Carillon
Ewinne(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> So....remember this is my novice mind at work here and I do not wish to
> be burned at the stake for being a heretic......
> Scott-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dean van winkle" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net> |
| Subject: | Recent Posting on Drain Holes |
Gary, Ernest, Steve, et al. I sat down with Tom Green at OSH about several subjects,
one being drain holes. His recommendation was 3/16 holes at the bulkheads
and a 3/8 or 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of the rudder fairing. Obviously,
with the level attitude of the 9A , the holes should be just aft of the bulkheads
and just forward of the bulkheads on the 9. The reason for the larger hole
in the bottom of the rudder fairing is to preclude against any possible water/ice
buildup that could lead to flutter of the surface. I personally would
not want to depend on the tiny slits between the tailcone side and bottom skins
for drainage because of foreign matter buildup and water surface tension concerns.
Dean Van Winkle
RV-9A 90095
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | johncclarkva(at)cs.com |
There was a recent post about the fuel tank skins not fitting properly and there
was some worry about using too much proseal. I tried to be careful and not
use too much proseal but when I put my tank on, the top skin stuck out about 1/8
inch. The bottom skin was close to ok. Actually there was no problem. With
the screws in place, it looked great. The rivet line is along the baffle,
which is several inched above the spar. The airfoil shape continues to bend from
the rivet line to the spar. However, the free aft end of the top skin (about
2 inches)remains straight (or sticks out above the spar about 1/8th on a inch)until
the screws pull the free end into the spar. So, when you first put
the tank on, expect the free aft end of the top skin to stick out some until you
use the screws to pull it into the proper airfoil shape. The shape of the
airfoil on the bottom is much straighter just forward of the spar, thus the aft
free end of the lower postion does not stick out as much.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
"RV9 Group"
| Subject: | Tank Gap Revisited |
Ok, all is forgiven. The dog can come back in the house and I'll go unbury all
my tools.
I finished the right tank and had the same gap problem as on the left tank. By
this time though I had ordered some new clecoes from Avery and they hold nice
so I was dependent on trying to get all the screws in- not like the cheap ones
I bought 12 years ago from an unnamed company.
My engineering mind said aha- a systemic problem affecting two tanks, not a simple
mistake.
The only thing I could see is a little extra pro-seal on the inside of the tank
skin that fits against the splice piece to the rest of the leading edge skin.
I popped that bad boy out and bingo- the tank settled nicely in place and all
the screw holes lined up. A few minutes with a wire wheel and I'm back in business.
My learnings- when making the pro-seal fillet for the end rib be a lot more cautious
then I was. I had actually used painter's tape to protect all the areas
I didn't want pro-seal. I just didn't tape in far enough.
Take the splice piece off before using the spar to hold the tank to dry in any
case.
Get advice from the list before taking a sledge hammer to a rather expensive and
time consuming piece.
Get quick build tanks next time.
(just kidding on the last one- I think)
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Riveting and rivet holes |
Okay, I have started my RV-9 Empennage and have a some riveting
questions. I tend to be a perfectionist and just want to make sure I
don't get carried away for no reason...
All the information I read about riveting emphasizes that the rivet hole
should just fit the rivet (diameter). We carefully cleco everything
together and match drill all the holes with the right size drill bit and
then proceed to dimple most of them - which immediately enlarges the
holes! Am I missing something here or is this what is expected? And if
it is, why all the emphasis on the "correct hole size"?
I have done some practice riveting (before I rivet the actual empennage)
and find it goes okay except I sometimes get rivets that are not flush,
And by not flush, I mean they are really sticking up. The shop head is
okay (considering that the length used is less than on a rivet that is
flush) but the head is way out there. I have tried varying how I rivet
but nothing I do seems to affect it - I still get random rivets that
stick up. Am I missing something here? Is there some technique that I
don't have yet that prevents this? Or is it something that just happens
and I will have to live with it and drill out the bad rivets?
And speaking of bad rivets, I am able to drill them out just fine
(plenty of practice :-) ), but the holes are then always slightly larger
than the starting holes - and I have not touched the holes with the
drill bit (just drill the head, break it off and drive out the rest of
the rivet). When you think about this, it makes sense since you are
expanding the rivet into the holes which pushes out on the edges of the
holes - thereby enlarging them. The rivet discussions I have read says
you can drill out the bad rivets and then re-rivet with the same size
rivet. Is this okay, even though the hole is slightly larger? Or
should one always use the oops rivets for a drilled out rivet?
Thanks, Dick Tasker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting and rivet holes |
09/18/2002 01:05:58 AM,
Serialize complete at 09/18/2002 01:05:58 AM
Richard,
Try using a firm pressure with the rivet gun and less pressure on the
bucking bar. You only need to hold the bucking bar in place, not force
it into the rivet. It sounds like you are pushing to hard on the bucking
bar and the rivet is setting above the skin.
Also try masking tape on the mushroom head. It will help hold it on the
rivet and not slip as bad.
Make sure that you are not using a mushroom head that has a rubber ring
around the edge that holds the head up off the rivet until it is hit by
the gun. The mushroom must be in contact with the rivet to drive it
flush.
Don't worry about the enlarged holes unless you are not able to fill the
hole when the rivet is set. The only time you should need oops rivets
is when you have had to drill one out several times and the hole is so
large that the rivet almost falls through and will not fill the hole
when driven.
Keep building. It gets easier as you go along. You also get less picky
as time goes by.
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL 90288
Waiting for a good weather day for first flight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting and rivet holes |
Dick,
Van's punches their holes to a #43.
You get to match-drill them to #40
The Dimpling Process enlarges them to #37
That's the way it is...
If the head of a flush rivet sticks up (from a properly dimpled/countersunk
hole) you're pressing too hard with the bucking bar. Most of the pressure
should be with the rivet gun and the bucking bar should just be "held
firmly" on the end of the rivet.
If the hole gets so big you can wiggle the new rivet in the stretched hole,
you will want to use an "Oops" rivet. Get a 1/10# of each length. You'll
use them.
Dave 90347
Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting and rivet holes |
If you are having problems with the rivet head (AN426) not fitting flush,
check your dimpling technique. Most new builders are afraid to really hit the
dimple dies hard, especially on the thicker material. There should be a
"slight" burnish from the die around the hole. The head should be flush before
you drive it. Drag your finger nail across it, it should not catch.
Richard Reynolds, RV-6A, Norfolk, VA
Dave Nicholson wrote:
>
> Dick,
>
> Van's punches their holes to a #43.
> You get to match-drill them to #40
> The Dimpling Process enlarges them to #37
>
> That's the way it is...
>
> If the head of a flush rivet sticks up (from a properly dimpled/countersunk
> hole) you're pressing too hard with the bucking bar. Most of the pressure
> should be with the rivet gun and the bucking bar should just be "held
> firmly" on the end of the rivet.
>
> If the hole gets so big you can wiggle the new rivet in the stretched hole,
> you will want to use an "Oops" rivet. Get a 1/10# of each length. You'll
> use them.
>
> Dave 90347
> Finishing Kit
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Riveting and rivet holes |
Hi,
I found that when the rivet was drilled out and replaced the whole was a
little large. With the longer rivets this made it hard to get the new rivet
to set properly. It wanted to lean or bend over. To solve this I would hold
the rivet in my hand squeezer and apply slight pressure to slightly compress
it, thus making it expand. Then when inserting it in the slightly larger hole
it would fit better and not be so apt to bend.
Unless the rivet is unsightly, it may be stronger if you just leave the
original rivet in place. Each time it is drilled and replaced it becomes more
sloppy and weaker. There are far more rivets than needed so a few bad ones
won't hurt the integrity of the plane. I am sure no plane built has all
perfect rivets, etc.
Keep pounding and priming
Carl, working on wings with subi engine on order.
Traverse City, Michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil" <Phil(at)camsnet.com> |
| Subject: | Riveting and rivet holes |
Richard Tasker wrote:
>> All the information I read about riveting emphasizes that the rivet hole
>> should just fit the rivet (diameter). We carefully cleco everything
>> together and match drill all the holes with the right size drill bit and
>> then proceed to dimple most of them - which immediately enlarges the
>> holes! Am I missing something here or is this what is expected? And if
>> it is, why all the emphasis on the "correct hole size"?
Hello Richard,
The importants of drill size is relational to the dimple die. If you do not
match drill
and then dimple (leaving the original hole size of #43) the potential of
creating cracks in
the material is high. I have read that some builders match drill w/ #41 (not
recommended).
The male dimple die is tight in the hole. The larger the dimple die the
greater the potential
of cracks if the holes are not inlarged. Take a scrape piece of .032 and
drill a hole smaller
than a #6 or #8 dimple die then dimple.
And please remember to debur, debur, debur after match drilling.
Best regards, 78-)
Phil Johnston
Phil(at)camsnet.com
RV-9A Kit Builder #90329 www.vansaircraft.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | x n number update requested |
RV-List Digest List
A while back a poster said that he thought it was possible to get an "X"
prefix for an n number, based on the the experimental category.
Has anyone reserved or actually received an X number for an RV?
Barry Pote RV9a finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Karie Daniel" <karied4(at)attbi.com> |
"RV-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: x n number update requested |
This is what is on the FAA web site regarding N numbers.
The FAA no longer issues numbers beginning with "NC", "NX", "NR", or "NL".
On some older aircraft, these numbers may be displayed in accordance with
FAR 45.22
Doesn't sound like you can use X any longer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "barry pote" <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV-List: x n number update requested
> --> RV-List message posted by: barry pote
>
> A while back a poster said that he thought it was possible to get an "X"
> prefix for an n number, based on the the experimental category.
>
> Has anyone reserved or actually received an X number for an RV?
>
> Barry Pote RV9a finishing
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Rankin <RankinP(at)timcolcq.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: x n number update requested |
In the past the X prefix was used before any registration number to identify
an experimental aircraft. .
However, The X prefix is not generally used anymore in the private sector.
Check 14 CFR section 45.23 for more information on marking for experimental
aircraft.
> This is what is on the FAA web site regarding N numbers.
>
> The FAA no longer issues numbers beginning with "NC", "NX", "NR", or "NL".
> On some older aircraft, these numbers may be displayed in accordance with
> FAR 45.22
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Exhaust Sysem for an O-235 N2C |
Perhaps someone with O-235 and/or O-320 experience could help me. I am
building an RV-9A, and will be installing the O235 N2C engine pretty soon.
Vans nearest exhaust is the one for a 320/360. I asked Gus at Vans if I
should order this exhaust or something else. He said to order the one for
the O-320 - - and modify it myself to fit the O-235. He couldn't remember
what they did to put it on the O-235 factory prototype. The prototype shop
workers said "it wasn't too bad". Does someone know what this means? This
won't be soft steel (stainless). I could shorten a pipe or two - but I
can't lengthen one or change angles of bend, etc.
Any help on this would be appreciated. By the way, the Fab air box will
fit really good - I have to remake one part. The baffle kit will be
different - I may order just the plans and make it myself. Perhaps these
will be my only problems - Ha, Ha!!!!
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 50% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Control Cables for Ellison |
I would be interested in talking with anyone who has installed an Ellison Throttle
Body carburetor on an RV-7 or RV-9. I want to order the throttle and mixture
cables from Van's, but they can't tell me which lengths to get for an Ellison
set-up on an O-320.
I am not even sure exactly how the standard Marvel carb set-up looks in terms of
throttle and mixture, in order to compare and make an educated wild-ass guess.
Anybody doing an Ellison?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Cables for Ellison |
Well, I'm not doing the Ellison (wish I was), but Mr Ellison himself was at our
last EAA meeting and talked for an hour about the carbs and how they work, why
they work, and all the differences from the standard Marvel models.
The main problem with the cables is that the throttle on the Marvel is on the right
side and swings an arc (like a model airplane). On the Ellison it's a linear
push pull afair so the cables and mounting brackets will be quite different.
I'm sure if you called them that he would have some ideas as to how to make
it work.
In about a week I can give detailed pictures of my setup (I have not yet mounted
the cables, just the brackets thus far)
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:14:41 -0600
>
>I would be interested in talking with anyone who has installed an Ellison Throttle
Body carburetor on an RV-7 or RV-9. I want to order the throttle and mixture
cables from Van's, but they can't tell me which lengths to get for an Ellison
set-up on an O-320.
>
>I am not even sure exactly how the standard Marvel carb set-up looks in terms
of throttle and mixture, in order to compare and make an educated wild-ass guess.
>
>Anybody doing an Ellison?
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Cables for Ellison |
Could anyone send me a link or address for the Ellison carbs?
Gene N557RV (res) sealing tanks yuch!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Cables for Ellison |
Gene.......the web site is http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/
and the phone # is 425-271-3220. They are in Renton, Washington.
Google search engine is about the best way to find these things. http://www.google.com/
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Control Cables for Ellison
Could anyone send me a link or address for the Ellison carbs?
Gene N557RV (res) sealing tanks yuch!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Should the tank dies be used on the skin and the ribs or just the ribs?? I used
them on both and after riveting the stiffeners to the skins the rivets look
like they have a black halo around them. This might imply that the rivet is not
tight against the skin.
Tanks Gene N557RV (res.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Calvert" <rv6(at)cox.net> |
Is that black halo proseal? You should have proseal that oozes around the
rivet and seals it. There will be some proseal that needs to be cleaned off
the skin, but leave the halo. Just get it fllush with rivet head. Proseal
is paintable.
Jerry Calvert
Edmond Ok -6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Tank Dies
>
> Should the tank dies be used on the skin and the ribs or just the ribs??
I used them on both and after riveting the stiffeners to the skins the
rivets look like they have a black halo around them. This might imply that
the rivet is not tight against the skin.
>
> Tanks Gene N557RV (res.)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Yes the halo is proseal. After dimpleing I put a rivet in the hole to see
what it looked like. It seemed like it was countersunk to deep. That is
why I questioned the final product. It seems to be the way tank dies work.
BTW Vans now sells pro-seal in tubes (they are looking for a source for
dispensers). The one they sell is type B 1/2 which is supposed to have a
half hour working time. I was able to do all stiffners filler flange and
drain flange on both skins in about 3 hours and the stuff was still
workable.
Gene N557RV res. Tanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Does the black ring go away when you clean it with Acetone or MEK?
I didn't use tank dies, and had to shave quite a few rivets. Seemed pretty hard
to get them flush with the proseal in there.
Gary N719R
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com ; RV-9A(at)yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:42 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Tank Dies
Should the tank dies be used on the skin and the ribs or just the ribs?? I used
them on both and after riveting the stiffeners to the skins the rivets look
like they have a black halo around them. This might imply that the rivet is
not tight against the skin.
Tanks Gene N557RV (res.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Gary, I used MEK and am able to get the surface junk off, but there is
still a black ring around the rivet. No proud rivets sticking above the
surface, I guess that's a plus.
Gene N557RV res. tanks and outboard leading edges
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DThomas773(at)aol.com |
On my tank on the row of rivets that attach the trailing edge to the rear
baffle I very carefully countersunk, as per instruction, but all those rivets
are high. All though the countersinks were a perfect dry fit I now have a
row proud rivets. I am about to start my second tank and wonder if any one
else has had this problem. Should these be cut deeper or is the problem the
way I set the rivets? In a post yesterday someone mentioned,"shaving
rivets." Is there a tool for this or do you just go to it with a file or
sander?
Dennis Thomas
90164 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
Dennis
I used the tank dies on the skin dimples that were not to be
countersunk. Since those dimples set lower in the skin I decided to set my
mach. countersink to go lower . I set the C/S so it was just flush with the
surface and the ran it down 3 clicks more. At this setting you can see that
they are below the surface but still not as much as the tank die dimple. I
haven't riveted in the baffel yet so it may not be enough, at least there
will be less to shave.
Yes most aircraft tool supply houses sell a rivet shaver.
Gene N557RV (res) tanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
I ran my countersink a little deeper and the rivets seem to all be flush. I
did have some proseal come through the baffle holes since I put proseal on
the entire baffle flange as well as the bead on the skin ahead of the holes.
I have a little halo around most of my rivets although a lot of it came off
with cleaning with the laquer thinner. I didn't try to clean too well since
I didn't want to potentially pull any proseal out that should be there.
Generally they are clean with a slight halo.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings (tanks done except testing)
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Tank Dies
>
> Dennis
> I used the tank dies on the skin dimples that were not to be
> countersunk. Since those dimples set lower in the skin I decided to set
my
> mach. countersink to go lower . I set the C/S so it was just flush with
the
> surface and the ran it down 3 clicks more. At this setting you can see
that
> they are below the surface but still not as much as the tank die dimple.
I
> haven't riveted in the baffel yet so it may not be enough, at least there
> will be less to shave.
> Yes most aircraft tool supply houses sell a rivet shaver.
>
> Gene N557RV (res) tanks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Has anyone tried fitting a Concorde 25RG battery into the standard battery box?
The inside dimensions of the box and the outside dimensions of the battery are
the same, according to the manufacturer's drawings on their web site. This
is tight to begin with, but certainly leaves no room for rivet heads or tails
(AN 470-4's shown on the drawing) on the firewall side of the box.
I would use flush rivets, but I have not come up with a way to countersink the
holes in the backside of the box due to the height of the flange on the front.
I plan to call Van's tomorrow, unless anyone on the list has solved this.
Help?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
The rivet shaver is a small cutter that goes in your microstop, like a countersink
cutter, except it is flat on the end.......like a tiny end mill. If you are
good, you could file them down, as well, but the shaver probably gives you
better control.
You can order a shaver bit for your microstop from any of the ususal suspects.......er,
tool places.
Gary
..................... In a post yesterday someone mentioned,"shaving
rivets." Is there a tool for this or do you just go to it with a file or
sander?
Dennis Thomas
90164 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Blank RV-9 Panel for Sale |
I ordered an Affordable Panel last week, so I now have a Van's RV-9 Blank
Panel for sale. (Edges smoothed and backside primed.)
Send me an offer directly:
dnick2(at)insightbb.com
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Cruikshank <cruikshank(at)attbi.com> |
Gary, The lacquer thinner found at Home Depot (Blue
over Orange can) will even remove cured Proseal with
some rubbing. The less it is cured the better. Makes
me wonder how the new stuff holds up to fuel.
Bruce TANKS DONE!
________________________________________________________________________________
Gary,
Have you thought about the Odyssey battery? About half the size, and the
battery box is simple. Lighter weight too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Battery box
>
> Has anyone tried fitting a Concorde 25RG battery into the standard battery
box? The inside dimensions of the box and the outside dimensions of the
battery are the same, according to the manufacturer's drawings on their web
site. This is tight to begin with, but certainly leaves no room for rivet
heads or tails (AN 470-4's shown on the drawing) on the firewall side of the
box.
>
> I would use flush rivets, but I have not come up with a way to countersink
the holes in the backside of the box due to the height of the flange on the
front.
>
> I plan to call Van's tomorrow, unless anyone on the list has solved this.
>
> Help?
>
> Gary
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Dale: Yes, I considered it. I decided I don't want to give up the greater capacity
of the R/G battery.
Cranking in very cold weather is one reason (I'm in Montana.) Also, in the event
of an alternator/regualtor failure of some sort, or any electrical problem
requiring you to turn off the Master Switch in flight, you will be using the battery
reserve capacity to get home.
I just talked to Van's, and they assured me the dimensions of the Concorde battery
are somewhat overstated, and that it will fit fine in the standard box.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
Gary,
Have you thought about the Odyssey battery? About half the size, and the
battery box is simple. Lighter weight too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
Okay, back again. With all the great suggestions from the list on
riveting technique, I can do the 3/32 rivets like gangbusters with nary
a proud head (if we forget the first two bucked rivets on the center
nose rib in the elevator which I drilled out and replaced :-) until I
figured out that I needed to squeeze the skin together to hold it
against the nose rib).
Now I am having problems with the 1/8 rivets. Actually, not all, just
the three holding the inside rib, nose rib, spacer, doubler and spar
together. The space is kind of tight in there and I have tried to rivet
them three times with no success. I have a 2X gun, so I set the
pressure to 55 psi and tried - the shop head was slightly bent and way
off center (looks like I smashed it sideways) and took forever to get
even that. So I cranked up the pressure to 90 psi and tried the second
one - took less time, but still the same crappy shop head and the
manufactured head was sad to see (all shiny and beat up). Tried the
third and that was worse - no shop head and the manufactured head all
but disappeared.
I get the impression that the mass of the spar, et. al. is preventing
the impulse from doing much to the shop head end of the rivet, but who
knows... Maybe I am holding the bucking bar too tightly on the rivet
(if that is possible). Anyway, I drilled them all out and tried the
first one again from the other side - no luck. Then I tried using the
back riveting tool on the rivet gun and bracing the head of the rivet on
the other riveting tool. Everything worked much better (faster), except
I still got a shop head that was bent and "smeared" sideways. I get the
impression that I might be able to get this method to work, but it is
unorthodox (to say the least) and i can't help believe that there has to
be a better way...
I don't want to do any more drilling out and re-riveting lest I wreck
all the parts. Unfortunately, I cannot get the pneumatic squeezer in
there (that works very well on the ones I can reach!).
At this point I am toying with the idea of just putting "pop" rivets
(aircraft grade) in those three holes.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Oops: Should have been Riveting 1/8 rivets |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting 1/8 rivets. |
Richard:
You are right about the extra hit required when riveting a massive assembly. I'd
say a 2X gun is too light for some of the work you'll need to do. A 3X gun
with the pressure set around 80 psi will give you a sharper hit than a 2X gun
with 90 psi. It is like trying to drive a big spike with a light hammer: the
heavier hammer has more impact with less violence, does less damage and drives
it easier and better.
You CAN hold the bucking bar too hard against the tail on the first hit, but this
will show up as a rivet with a protruding factory head.......you have pushed
it out of the hole a bit before it begins to swell.
Some rivets in certain spots can be a bugger. Your best shot is when you get a
bit of experience, and can get everything right on the first try: Gun size,
pressure, using the heaviest bar you can, holding everything straight, getting
the right rythm on the trigger, etc. It gets easier, but rest assured there
will be times even far down the road when you make an "Ugly."
After 16,000 rivets or so on mine, I did one the other night that looks like a
nail that was pushed in and just bent over. I pointed it out to a fellow RVer,
and he said "Yeah, just bend 'em over enough so they don't fall out!" Oh well.
On the last point: Anymore, I have no qualms about using a pop rivet now and then
in a tough spot! Easier on the plane and the builder.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Tasker
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Battery box
Okay, back again. With all the great suggestions from the list on
riveting technique, I can do the 3/32 rivets like gangbusters with nary
a proud head (if we forget the first two bucked rivets on the center
nose rib in the elevator which I drilled out and replaced :-) until I
figured out that I needed to squeeze the skin together to hold it
against the nose rib).
Now I am having problems with the 1/8 rivets. Actually, not all, just
the three holding the inside rib, nose rib, spacer, doubler and spar
together. The space is kind of tight in there and I have tried to rivet
them three times with no success. I have a 2X gun, so I set the
pressure to 55 psi and tried - the shop head was slightly bent and way
off center (looks like I smashed it sideways) and took forever to get
even that. So I cranked up the pressure to 90 psi and tried the second
one - took less time, but still the same crappy shop head and the
manufactured head was sad to see (all shiny and beat up). Tried the
third and that was worse - no shop head and the manufactured head all
but disappeared.
I get the impression that the mass of the spar, et. al. is preventing
the impulse from doing much to the shop head end of the rivet, but who
knows... Maybe I am holding the bucking bar too tightly on the rivet
(if that is possible). Anyway, I drilled them all out and tried the
first one again from the other side - no luck. Then I tried using the
back riveting tool on the rivet gun and bracing the head of the rivet on
the other riveting tool. Everything worked much better (faster), except
I still got a shop head that was bent and "smeared" sideways. I get the
impression that I might be able to get this method to work, but it is
unorthodox (to say the least) and i can't help believe that there has to
be a better way...
I don't want to do any more drilling out and re-riveting lest I wreck
all the parts. Unfortunately, I cannot get the pneumatic squeezer in
there (that works very well on the ones I can reach!).
At this point I am toying with the idea of just putting "pop" rivets
(aircraft grade) in those three holes.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John <jleclercq(at)charter.net> |
Just starting on my tail feathers and am womdering if anyone has
riveting tools for sale.
Wisconsin only please.
John LeClercq
RV-9
90599
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Pneumatic Squeezer, Why? |
I have a Air squeezer with 2.5 and 4" yokes and quick change pins. I also have
a Tatco hand squeezer, not the best one there is. I use the air anytime I can.
Yes it is heavy and bulky and you can very easily punch a hole where you don't
want it, and I run it at 95 psi all the time.
The main claim to fame for the pneumatic is the 12.5 inch throat bench mounted
yoke that I made out of 2" thick plate. This is used for mainly for dimpling and
will reach to the center of almost all the skins. I have also done some riveting
with it.
The point is nothing is cheap with this type of project and you need to do or get
whatever floats your boat, or should I say flys your plane !
Gene N557RV (res.) finishing wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <Rob(at)RobsGlass.com> |
Has anyone on the list had any luck contacting the organisers of this? I have
e-mailed two of the prinpals at Phoenix Regional over a week ago enquiring about
runway details, tie down availability and the list of exhibitors and received
no reply
The web site says that more information will follow ..... This had better be VERY
soon if it's to be of any use to visitors. I really hope the organisation
on the ground is better than on the web!
Rob
Rob W M Shipley.
RV9A fuselage. N919RV resvd.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall hole size? |
For those that are ahead of me... What size hole did you use for the carb heat
cable to pass through the firewall. The plans (with all updates and revisions)
call for a 3/8" hole, while the throttle and mixture call for 5/8" holes. However
the hardware call out says to use the same size snap bushings for all of
them, so I'm confused as to why the callout for a 3/8" hole. The cable is smaller
than even 3/8...
What to do???
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - piddling around with the small stuff!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Copperstate is on for this year, Oct. 10-13 at the new location-Phoenix
Regional Grande Valley Airport A39. At our chapter meeting Tuesday we
received the follow handout.
Copperstate Fly-in Ultralight Arrival Proceedure
Notice: Field is Closed to all Arriving Flights or Ultralight Activity
During the Airshow. Airshows are; Friday 2-4 PM, Sat. 2-4 PM, and Sunday
12-3 PM. Remember to plan your flying around this.
The 30th annual Copperstate Fly-in is almost here! October 10 - 13, 2002. We
are in a new permanent location NW of Casa Grande. The field currently
[listed as] Grande Valley on the sectional chart will be know as Phoenix
Regional Airport. It is about 12 milees NW from Casa Grande along the
Maricopa/Casa Grande Highway. The entrance is on Anderson Road. Camping is
$5 a night and there are showers available.
There is additional information for ultralights but Copperstate is on again.
Albert Gardner
RV-9A N872RV
Yuma, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall hole size? |
Andy......they say to use snap bushings for firewall penetrations? Is this in
the firewall forward kit? How do you seal them?
Gary.....also fidding with endless details....
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Karmy
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:57 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Firewall hole size?
For those that are ahead of me... What size hole did you use for the carb heat
cable to pass through the firewall. The plans (with all updates and revisions)
call for a 3/8" hole, while the throttle and mixture call for 5/8" holes. However
the hardware call out says to use the same size snap bushings for all of
them, so I'm confused as to why the callout for a 3/8" hole. The cable is smaller
than even 3/8...
What to do???
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - piddling around with the small stuff!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall hole size? |
The as designed solution is to put a large plastic snap bushing in the 5/8" hole
from the firewall side, then put a smaller one (SB500-6) in from the cockpit
side (you slit the bushing and slip over the cable) The smaller bushing presses
into the larger one. Then they say to simply cover the firewall side with Red
RTV, or Pro-Seal (YEA, another chance to mix up some Pro-Seal).
Now I know that there are many other solutions with rubber grommets, SS shields,
$40 eyeballs etc etc etc, but this is the simple cheap as designed solution.
I asked them about it at Oshkosh this year and they said that this is how they
have done all the prototypes and it works just fine, won't have rubber rot over
time and is sealed to keep out the bad stuff.
I guess the question really is one of how much protection you feel you get from
that very thin SS firewall in the event of a fire anyways. Seems like if there's
really something major on fire up front you got big problems on your hands
no matter how you punch through the firewall.
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:40:03 -0600
>
>Andy......they say to use snap bushings for firewall penetrations? Is this in
the firewall forward kit? How do you seal them?
>
>Gary.....also fidding with endless details....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andy Karmy
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:57 PM
> Subject: RV9-List: Firewall hole size?
>
>
> For those that are ahead of me... What size hole did you use for the carb heat
cable to pass through the firewall. The plans (with all updates and revisions)
call for a 3/8" hole, while the throttle and mixture call for 5/8" holes.
However the hardware call out says to use the same size snap bushings for all
of them, so I'm confused as to why the callout for a 3/8" hole. The cable is smaller
than even 3/8...
>
> What to do???
>
> - Andy Karmy
> RV9A - piddling around with the small stuff!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall hole size? |
Andy.......sounds like a perfectly good solution to me. Sealed to keep out hot
air and engine smells. Fire is something you only need protection from for a
short time while you get ready to crash. I'm sure the stainless would hold up
very well, but the products of combusion of the fuel, rubber, insulation, and
fiberglass would be nice to keep outside the living space.
I'm sure the method you describe would seal better than the $6-per-each firewall
grommets. Think I'll try it. I have no problem with mixing small batches of
Proseal. Solvents are much worse to work with.
Thanks for the tip for those of us who aren't getting the firewall forward kit.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Karmy
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall hole size?
The as designed solution is to put a large plastic snap bushing in the 5/8" hole
from the firewall side, then put a smaller one (SB500-6) in from the cockpit
side (you slit the bushing and slip over the cable) The smaller bushing presses
into the larger one. Then they say to simply cover the firewall side with
Red RTV, or Pro-Seal (YEA, another chance to mix up some Pro-Seal).
Now I know that there are many other solutions with rubber grommets, SS shields,
$40 eyeballs etc etc etc, but this is the simple cheap as designed solution.
I asked them about it at Oshkosh this year and they said that this is how they
have done all the prototypes and it works just fine, won't have rubber rot
over time and is sealed to keep out the bad stuff.
I guess the question really is one of how much protection you feel you get from
that very thin SS firewall in the event of a fire anyways. Seems like if there's
really something major on fire up front you got big problems on your hands
no matter how you punch through the firewall.
- Andy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Coldenhoff <rv9a(at)deru.com> |
>of the prinpals at Phoenix Regional over a week ago enquiring about
>runway details, tie down availability and the list of exhibitors and
>received no reply
>Don't go to the bank with this but it seems that I read
>somewhere that they
>canceled this year.
Absolutely false.
There was no Copperstate last year, due to
some problems with Williams-Gateway airport.
This year the show is definitely on at
the brand new Phoenix Regional Airport (A39).
Rob - you didn't mention which web site
was light on details but http://www.copperstate.org
has an aerial photo of the field along with
the usual fly-in data, including a list of
the exhibitors and forums.
The arrival procedures state that most will
be parking on grass and to bring your own
tiedowns.
The airport site, http://www.phoenixregionalairport.com
lists much of the same and some additional
data which as been posted within the last day
or two.
I hear your frustration, but try not to be too
hard on the principals; they have been busting
their butts trying to get the field into shape
for this year's fly-in. It's a brand new airport,
so don't expect perfection just yet... in fact,
it may be a tad on the rough side.
I hope this helps. I live in Phoenix and plan
to drive in during the course of the weekend.
--
+---------------------+--------------------+
| Tim Coldenhoff | rv9a(at)deru.com |
| Software Consultant | www.deru.com/~rv9a |
+---------------------+--------------------+
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Quality of Dimples |
> The main claim to fame for the pneumatic is the 12.5 inch throat bench
mounted yoke that I made out of 2" thick plate. This is used for mainly for
dimpling and will reach to the center of almost all the skins. I have also
done some riveting with it.
I currious to know how nice the dimple is with the pneumatic squeezer. I
never squeeze (Tatco from Avery 1996 vintage) dimples since I found that a
tap from a plastic hammer in the Avrey C-Frame tool does a crisper, nicer,
cleaner dimple. I can really tell the difference after the rivets are in.
The hammered ones lie much flatter and look way better than the ones that
were squeezed. Have others found the same thing? It's a finish quality
thing, Hammered dimples have ended up better for me. Am I the only one? Who
has a whole lot of time with their pneumatic squeezer and has tried a
comparison? Who has done skins with the squeezer around the edges but the
C-Frame tool in the middle rib runs? Do the rivets in the middle look
better? Mine did, I noticed it early on during the tail construction so have
done most of the plane by hammering dimples.
Side bar - if I was shopping for a new hand squeezer I'd buy the fancy one
from Cleveland that has a non-linear action to the compression. Must be a
dream to use, what a beautiful tool. Beats the standard Tatco and Avery
hands down IMHO. http://www.cleavelandtool.com/catalog/squeezer.html
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall insulation? |
What y'all usin' fer firewall insulation?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
I used some Mylar-faced dual density foam with a vinyl layer in between from J.
C. Whitney. Good stuff, not light (that's why it deadens sound), and used carefully,
one roll will do the firewall and floor of a -9/A
Check out
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml;$sessionid$W1IVSJYAAAT3CQSNDV1CFE0CJUOXKIV0?CATID139117&BQjcw2
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Dale Larsen
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
What y'all usin' fer firewall insulation?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene" <gene(at)nvaircraft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quality of Dimples |
I have done just as you asked: squeezed around the perimeter and banged the
interior holes. I can not tell the difference. All I am interested in is
that the rivet is at the proper depth. The pneumatic squeezer supposedly
does 3000 psi. I would doubt that any of us hit the "c" frame tool with
the same amount of force and we all get acceptable dimples.
My reason for fabricating the 12 1/2" yoke was to cut down on making noise.
When using the "c" frame I use a 2 pound dead blow hammer and the noise is a
little irritating, not as bad as riveting but with approx. 12- 13000 rivets
to do it helps reduce the noise.
Gene N557RV (res.) wraping up the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall insulation? |
I too used some "JC whitney" Stuff. It's kind of a wool type mat with
aluminum on one side. It's sold for trunk insulation, RV(the big kind),
etc.. It's extremely cheap, fairly light, and a snap to cut and install
using "spray tack". Good stuff!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6, Minneapolis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dale Larsen
Subject: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
What y'all usin' fer firewall insulation?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Do you have a part number for this material? My browser won't load
anything when I click on the URL you listed.
Thanks, Dick
Gary wrote:
>
>I used some Mylar-faced dual density foam with a vinyl layer in between from J.
C. Whitney. Good stuff, not light (that's why it deadens sound), and used carefully,
one roll will do the firewall and floor of a -9/A
>
>Check out
>http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml;$sessionid$W1IVSJYAAAT3CQSNDV1CFE0CJUOXKIV0?CATID139117&BQjcw2
>
>Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dale Larsen
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:00 PM
> Subject: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
>
>
> What y'all usin' fer firewall insulation?
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
The part # is 15ZX8488B. Or you can just go to the home page www.jcwhitney.com and type "insulation" in the search box.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard E. Tasker
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
Do you have a part number for this material? My browser won't load
anything when I click on the URL you listed.
Thanks, Dick
Gary wrote:
>
>I used some Mylar-faced dual density foam with a vinyl layer in between from
J. C. Whitney. Good stuff, not light (that's why it deadens sound), and used
carefully, one roll will do the firewall and floor of a -9/A
>
>Check out
>http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml;$sessionid$W1IVSJYAAAT3CQSNDV1CFE0CJUOXKIV0?CATID139117&BQjcw2
>
>Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
1/2" ArmaFlex from GeoBeck, Inc.
http://www.fly-gbi.com/
The also have material for the floors and walls.
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Larsen" <slickrock@been-there.com>
Subject: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
>
> What y'all usin' fer firewall insulation?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9(at)cinci.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Champagne for everyone |
Tested both tanks this weekend and no leaks. The water tube method was used and
went very well.
Now I too can lean back and say - the proseal wasn't all that bad (ha!!).
Bring on the wine- I'm done!
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Brandvold <jbrandv(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Hello: We are working on the last of our panel and were
wondering if anyone has put in an AM/FM Radio-CD Player?
The question is what did you do about an antenna? We've
put the NAV antenna in the wing tip and the Com antenna in
the canopy so don't want anything hanging out. What are our
options?
Jim & Glen Brandvold
Finish Kit N209RV (Reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnCClarkVA(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Regarding firewall insulation, just remember that what you put on the
firewall will autoignite if you get a fire up front and the material is
flammable. Most closed cell foam is, pound for pound, a great energy source.
You may want to hit it with a propane torch just to see what it will do.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | One of our own: RV6a Charles Golden |
I lost a friend the other day. I never met him face to face, but only
through the typed word.
My computer wall paper is a picture of his V6 firewall forward.
Charles had built an RV6a with Chevy V6 power. He was, in many ways, my
mentor.
Only a week ago, he went into detail about his fuel system. I had asked
a fairly simple question, but Charles wrote me a page. He knew that my
one question, once answered, would lead to more questions. So he
anticipated those, and answered them.
Charles was an upbeat kind of guy. You could tell by the way he wrote.
He was pleased with the performance of his 'Chevy'. But was planning to
try a new Holley fuel injection setup. He postponed that experiment,
while he finally got his plane painted. It looked great! I do not know
if he ever made the change to fuel injection or not.
I never met him. I never talked to him. I wouldn't know his face, if I
saw it. But he was a friend, neverless. I will miss him.
Barry Pote RV9a finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of our own: RV6a Charles Golden |
I knew of Charles and his V6 powered bird and had exchanged a couple of e
mails regarding Auto conversion challenges. I finally got to meet him at
SERFI. A class one installation, very neat and of show plane quality and a
guy who clearly enjoyed talking about his project. I watch he and the other
V6 power RV-6 A at the Flyin roll down the runway and lift off. What a
feeling to see those two RV climb skyward powered by auto engines. None
watching realized that would be the last we would see of Charles, his
passenger and that beautiful aircraft.
He will be missed by all.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
----- Original Message -----
From: "barry pote" <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV9-List: One of our own: RV6a Charles Golden
>
> I lost a friend the other day. I never met him face to face, but only
> through the typed word.
>
> My computer wall paper is a picture of his V6 firewall forward.
>
> Charles had built an RV6a with Chevy V6 power. He was, in many ways, my
> mentor.
>
> Only a week ago, he went into detail about his fuel system. I had asked
> a fairly simple question, but Charles wrote me a page. He knew that my
> one question, once answered, would lead to more questions. So he
> anticipated those, and answered them.
>
> Charles was an upbeat kind of guy. You could tell by the way he wrote.
> He was pleased with the performance of his 'Chevy'. But was planning to
> try a new Holley fuel injection setup. He postponed that experiment,
> while he finally got his plane painted. It looked great! I do not know
> if he ever made the change to fuel injection or not.
>
> I never met him. I never talked to him. I wouldn't know his face, if I
> saw it. But he was a friend, neverless. I will miss him.
>
> Barry Pote RV9a finishing
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
A couple of queries:
1. Part F-697 Are the locations of the platenuts indicated on a plan
anywhere? I cant find it on either 24a or 47
2. Part F-643-1 There is an oval hole shown on the plan through which a
part of the canopy lock mechanism passes. Again I can not find it located on
a plan anywhere.
Am I missing something?
Thanks, Steve
#90360
N Yorks. UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
A couple of queries:
1. Part F-697 Are the locations of the platenuts indicated on a plan
anywhere? I cant find it on either 24a or 47
2. Part F-643-1 There is an oval hole shown on the plan through which a
part of the canopy lock mechanism passes. Again I can not find it located on
a plan anywhere.
Am I missing something?
Thanks, Steve
#90360
N Yorks. UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
Steve.......
On F-697, nutplates......matchdrill the hole locations thru your C-620 bearing
block when you get it aligned so the 622 and 622 links line up and work smoothly.
On the F-643-1, you have to locate that hole yourself. Just hold the parts up
there, guess at it, and start small. Work it larger, trial and error till it
suits you, and clears the arm.
BETTER YET, don't install the WD-618 release arm at all. Here is what I did:
I didn't want the jettison handle in my panel, and I don't want to jettison the
canopy in flight. Informed people at Van's said they thought the canopy would
not come off in flight anyway, and if it did, it would likely take your face
with it. I didn't want some uniformed passenger testing the hypothesis for
me.
Sooo.......I mounted the WD-620 canopy jettison handle vertically in the bottom
of WD-619 release shaft, and pinned it in place with a machine screw. Then I
mounted a small "ally" plate to the forward engine control bracket, with a snap
bushing in it. The jettison handle goes through the snap bushing. Now, you
rotate the handle underneath the panel to release the hinge pins. I welded
a small tab on the handle shaft, put a hole in it, and can now safety wire the
tab to the control bracket so it stays put. In a roll-over accident or any other
need to pull the pins in a hurry, I can twist the handle hard enough to shear
the safety wire and release the canopy.
I will post some pictures of the results as soon as I find them among all these
discs......
Gary
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697
A couple of queries:
1. Part F-697 Are the locations of the platenuts indicated on a plan
anywhere? I cant find it on either 24a or 47
2. Part F-643-1 There is an oval hole shown on the plan through which
a
part of the canopy lock mechanism passes. Again I can not find it located on
a plan anywhere.
Am I missing something?
Thanks, Steve
#90360
N Yorks. UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Cirrus Chute Deployment |
For those who haven't seen it, check out this site for news and pictures re. the
first deployment of a ballistic chute by a Cirrus a/c.
"http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?BadBrowser=0&NoCookies=0&NoFlash=1&JavaScriptOff=0".
The Cirrus in the story had a left aileron almost separate from the a/c which
created some significant controlablity problems. Why this happened has yet to
be determined...but mechanics had recently worked on it...isn't it nice to be
able to do our maintenance?!
I have e-mailed BRS in the past regarding a chute for RV type a/c and they indicated
they are moving forward with a new model that will be able to handle higher
speeds gross weight than is currently available through A/C Spruce and other
vendors.
Doug Lomheim (90116, wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
Gary - thanks for that. The pictures are really interesting and helpful.
OK it is what I suspected. You cant finish fabricating the sub panel until
you take delivery of the finish kit containing the C-620 since it will
become impossible to rivet the nutplates on once the F-697 is installed.
I quite like your thoughts about the jettison handle. I used to wear a
parachute in a glider so canopy jettison made sense, but I see little need
to jettison in flight without a 'chute. On the ground if it needs to be
jettisoned I would have thought it would have ceased to exist! Your method
seems acceptable and I would prefer it stayed in place rather than
accidentally jettisoned. I wonder what others think?
Thanks again, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 &
F-697
Steve.......
On F-697, nutplates......matchdrill the hole locations thru your C-620
bearing block when you get it aligned so the 622 and 622 links line up and
work smoothly.
On the F-643-1, you have to locate that hole yourself. Just hold the parts
up there, guess at it, and start small. Work it larger, trial and error
till it suits you, and clears the arm.
BETTER YET, don't install the WD-618 release arm at all. Here is what I
did: I didn't want the jettison handle in my panel, and I don't want to
jettison the canopy in flight. Informed people at Van's said they thought
the canopy would not come off in flight anyway, and if it did, it would
likely take your face with it. I didn't want some uniformed passenger
testing the hypothesis for me.
Sooo.......I mounted the WD-620 canopy jettison handle vertically in the
bottom of WD-619 release shaft, and pinned it in place with a machine screw.
Then I mounted a small "ally" plate to the forward engine control bracket,
with a snap bushing in it. The jettison handle goes through the snap
bushing. Now, you rotate the handle underneath the panel to release the
hinge pins. I welded a small tab on the handle shaft, put a hole in it, and
can now safety wire the tab to the control bracket so it stays put. In a
roll-over accident or any other need to pull the pins in a hurry, I can
twist the handle hard enough to shear the safety wire and release the
canopy.
I will post some pictures of the results as soon as I find them among all
these discs......
Gary
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697
A couple of queries:
1. Part F-697 Are the locations of the platenuts indicated on a
plan
anywhere? I cant find it on either 24a or 47
2. Part F-643-1 There is an oval hole shown on the plan through
which a
part of the canopy lock mechanism passes. Again I can not find it located
on
a plan anywhere.
Am I missing something?
Thanks, Steve
#90360
N Yorks. UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com> |
Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the wheels/brakes
etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for the 5/16 nuts. when doing this
on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench) and do the nut up as
tight as feels right....can't do that with any confidence on this baby...
Roy in the Fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: UK v. US Torque |
Divide inch-pounds by 12 to get foot-pounds. - Old Math Teacher
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: UK v. US Torque
>
> Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the
wheels/brakes etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for the 5/16 nuts. when
doing this on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench) and do the
nut up as tight as feels right....can't do that with any confidence on this
baby...
> Roy in the Fuse.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: UK v. US Torque |
Roy,
Try 7.5 . According to converter site here..
http://www.pitt.edu/~rsup/touqueconv.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: UK v. US Torque
>
> Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the wheels/brakes
etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for
the 5/16 nuts. when doing this on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench)
and do the nut up as tight as feels
right....can't do that with any confidence on this baby...
> Roy in the Fuse.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tchoug <tchoug(at)micron.com> |
Roy,
It has nothing to do with UK vs. US, it's just US inches, US pounds and US
feet!
12 inches to a foot so 48 inch pounds is 4 foot pounds. 96 in-lb is 8 ft-lb.
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Taylor [mailto:Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com]
Subject: RV9-List: UK v. US Torque
Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the
wheels/brakes etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for the 5/16 nuts. when
doing this on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench) and do the
nut up as tight as feels right....can't do that with any confidence on this
baby...
Roy in the Fuse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: UK v. US Torque |
12 inch/pounds = 1 foot/pound therefore 90 in/lb = 7-1/2 ft/lb. Also I think
the Avery tool catalog has some additional information on using crowsfoot
wrenches to increase/decrease effective tool length if you have clearance
problems.
Albert Gardner N872RV
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: UK v. US Torque
>
> Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the
wheels/brakes etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for the 5/16 nuts. when
doing this on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench) and do the
nut up as tight as feels right....can't do that with any confidence on this
baby...
> Roy in the Fuse.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: UK v. US Torque |
Guess what ..it also works to just divide by 12....
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Taylor" <Royandjilly(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: RV9-List: UK v. US Torque
>
> Anyone know how to convert Pound/ Inches into Pounds/foot? I'm doing the wheels/brakes
etc. and it calls for 90lb/ins.torque for
the 5/16 nuts. when doing this on my vintage Alvis I take a shortish spanner (wrench)
and do the nut up as tight as feels
right....can't do that with any confidence on this baby...
> Roy in the Fuse.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
Are most of you installing a parking brake? I was surpised to learn the
factory 9A doesn't have one.
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: parking brake |
Mark,
We were waiting for you to design a neat manual latch system to set the toe brakes
so we don't have to buy all the hydraulic stuff.
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RV9-List: parking brake
>
> Are most of you installing a parking brake? I was surpised to learn the
> factory 9A doesn't have one.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> RV-9A
> Wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
Seems like releasing the canopy in flight would rip your vertical stabilizer off
assuming your head didn't get in the way first. According to Vans, even the
slider would depart ship if you opened it far enough in flight. Maybe without
the vert stab, you'ld have an easier time jumping? One last roll maneuver
might be worthwhile so you would have gravity on your side.
I inquired a while back about the BRS. They claimed the RV is too fast for
their best chute and since it needs to be strapped to the spar, you would have
to fabricate some sort of tear-away strip over channels in the exterior of the
fuse for the straps to run. I guess the best option is to built it right and
fly it safe.
Does anyone know of a case of someone jumping from an RV?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
You guys might want to give some thoughts to the flamability of the materials
you choose for insulation. Granted, we're not certified AC, but in-flight fires
don't care about certification. Materials like vinyl, mylar, and most plastics
for that matter, produce toxic gases as they burn. Best to stick with
fire-resistant materials designed for this use. By the way, Vans no longer
uses firewall insulation in their planes. They said it the Lycoming bark tends
to be up through the floor more than through the firewall. Fire-resistant
underlayment and carpet do more for quieting it down. He also said the heat of
the firewall is not as bad as you might think.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697 |
Yea, I heard the same thing from someone else talking to Van's. It's approved
to be released in flight along with the vertical stab
ONCE. The BRS is interesting...but the cost would be more than the airframe IF
they even had one for these speeds.. Still...I think
I would rather buy the 1500 model. accept the weight and speed limitations and
take my chances.. Heck...if a wing or engine falls
off the weight should be about perfect. As for the speed.... pull up.. stall it
and let er rip.... I'm game....
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Upper Fwd Fuse - Tip up Canopy - Parts F-643-1 & F-697
>
> Seems like releasing the canopy in flight would rip your vertical stabilizer
off
> assuming your head didn't get in the way first. According to Vans, even the
> slider would depart ship if you opened it far enough in flight. Maybe without
> the vert stab, you'ld have an easier time jumping? One last roll maneuver
> might be worthwhile so you would have gravity on your side.
>
> I inquired a while back about the BRS. They claimed the RV is too fast for
> their best chute and since it needs to be strapped to the spar, you would have
> to fabricate some sort of tear-away strip over channels in the exterior of the
> fuse for the straps to run. I guess the best option is to built it right and
> fly it safe.
>
> Does anyone know of a case of someone jumping from an RV?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
JC Whitney recommends it for under the hood of your 'Vette. Better than a government
spec, right? Remember, guys, this is on the inside, not in the engine
compartment. It is glued to the stainless on one side, and foil-faced on the
other. Someone suggested trying a propane torch on the insulation before installing
it. Gosh, I don't want to install burnt insulation in my new plane! Anyway,
a propane torch-like flame will "auto ignite" my toes quicker than it
would the insulation.
I did insulate the floor. That is the source of most of the noise, as you say.
The exhaust drums on it. That is why Van's recommends (and I did) dimple the
floor skin instead of machine countersinking, even though it is a bit thick.
Maybe a good solution would be a halon fire extinguisher to by you a little time
before the crash.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Newsted
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
You guys might want to give some thoughts to the flamability of the materials
you choose for insulation. Granted, we're not certified AC, but in-flight fires
don't care about certification. Materials like vinyl, mylar, and most plastics
for that matter, produce toxic gases as they burn. Best to stick with
fire-resistant materials designed for this use. By the way, Vans no longer
uses firewall insulation in their planes. They said it the Lycoming bark tends
to be up through the floor more than through the firewall. Fire-resistant
underlayment and carpet do more for quieting it down. He also said the heat
of
the firewall is not as bad as you might think.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnCClarkVA(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Lets try an example of autoignition through the firewall. Take a twin engine
airplane with an oil tank behind the firewall. Get a little misting leak in
the breather hose and have a messy aft side of the firewall. Not real messy,
but just enough to accumulate dried oil and dirt over a period of time, kind
of like a car engine, a little damp with oil. Now get a fire up front. It
takes a very short time (minute or two max) to heat the firewall, autoignite
the oil deposits. Now you have an oil-fed fire behind the firewall. It gets
in the fuel lines and burns the spar in two.
Now for us, put in closed cell foam, glued to the firewall. The coating with
aluminum (a great heat conductor) behind the firewall does not help. Get a
fire up front, autoignite the foam, and guess what. You cannot put it out.
Closed cell foam will burn like crazy, possibly better than dried oil.
Bubble wrap, pound for pound is a great energy source - take a look at Value
Jet where the bubble wrap was around the ox cannisters.
Perhaps the JC stuff is ok, perhaps the glue you use is a good fuel source.
Just test a small sample of what you are using with a tourch and see what
happens if it were to start burnig from heat through the firewall. See if
that is what you really want against the firewall. I am sure there must be
fire resistent material that will resist burning, will not outgas too much
noxious fumes and still provide sound attenuation, if that is what you want.
Just make sure that is what you have.
If fire protection is desired (the reason for stainless steel firewalls),
even the holes in the firewall can be a problem if the proseal method is used
to seal the holes. I suspect proseal can burn pretty good, though I have no
experience with it. I may try torching a cup with some cured proseal just
for the fun of it.
The firewall should buy a lot of protection if you shut off the "fuel"
source, such as a fuel-fed fire. There are other sources besides avgas
(closed cell foam, wire insulation, paint, fabric, etc). Once a fire gets
behind the firewall, even your fire bottle may not put it out. I think Van
has the right idea.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Well put John. Along with the Bush Administration's roving TFR's, a cockpit
fire is about the scariest thing a pilot can imagine. There are however, well
proven fire-resistant mats for this purpose.
I also cringe whenever I hear anyone mention Halon. Do you realize how Halon
works? It will instantly suck all the oxygen out of a closed area. This is how
it puts out fire, and why it is not as effective outdoors. However, in a
closed area, it stops a fire in a heartbeat. Problem is, it stops your
heartbeat in an instant too if you are not wearing an oxygen mask. About ten
years ago at Digital Equipment Corporation, we had a fire in one of our
semiconductor labs. The red lights lit up, the sirens sounded, the magnetic
doors swung shut, and some poor guy couldn't get to the door in time and
couldn't figure out how to open the glass panel with the oxygen masks in it.
He lasted about 10 seconds once the Halon started flowing. We since replaced
all our Halon systems. People think its great because it doesn't leave a mess,
but you don't want this in a closed cockpit I assure you. A good inspector
will catch this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DLOMHEIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Cowling Installation |
Question for those who are flying/finishing their "9"'s...
What are you all doing to secure the cowling? I have seen the piano hinge style
that Van's uses on the 6's and 4's (and I assume that is what they suggest for
the "7/9"); but has anyone tried 1/4 turn CAMLOCs, etc. or installed something
like this product available from "skybolt"?
"http://www.skybolt.com/OriginalSite020828/products/vans.html"
My dad is finishing up his "7" and I'm trying to find out some info. for him on
possible products that can make the cowl removal a bit less painless; or has
the piano hinge method been improved on in the 7/9's vs. the problems I've heard
from friends flying 4's and 6's? Thanks for any info.
Doug Lomheim (90116, wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PERRYMAN Larry <larry.perryman(at)atofina.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling Installation |
10/11/2002 03:59:29 PM,
Serialize complete at 10/11/2002 03:59:29 PM
Doug,
On my 9 I have piano hinge all the way. I used the heavy 1/8 inch hinge
in all locations. I use 3/32 stainless steel rods. The cowl is hard to
get the top on and off unless you slant the hinge loops on both parts.
If I was doing it again, I would use a combination of fittings. Hinge
for the lower cowl as it is simple to get to and it conceals the
connection well. I would use the Southco Camloc fittings across the top
by the firewall. You would not have to slant the hinge loops then.
I took about 1 inch of 3/4 x 3/4 al. angle and made a catch that I put
inside the lower cowl lip by the air inlets. If your pins for the sides
are long enough, you can bend them to conform to the curve of the cowl
and hook them into the latch inside. This allows the spring tension to
push the rod back toward the firewall and any attempt to work it forward
is opposed by the latch. This allows the pin to be completely out of
site and does not require a tool to remove the pin.
Make the latch so it looks something like this. Then rivet it on with
the long stop on the bottom
__
| | __
| |_/ |
|_____|
Hope this is of some help.
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
Mark - Yes, nothing is flat around here! Chris H has some excellent pictures
on his site. I am plagerising these:
http://my.execpc.com/~cjh/brake_valve.html
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Schrimmer
Subject: RV9-List: parking brake
Are most of you installing a parking brake? I was surpised to learn the
factory 9A doesn't have one.
Mark Schrimmer
RV-9A
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
I was sure this one would bring some discussion out of the woodwork. Gary, maybe
you had better tell the FAA, Aircraft Spruce, and numerous engineering, testing,
and approval agencies involved in fire suppression systems......because
they apparently have it wrong.
They say think that Halon is acceptable for use in unventilated occupied spaces,
including aircraft, using guidelines for how much halon can be discharged as
a percentage of the air volume. They also are convinced that halon does not
"suck all the oxygen out of a closed area," but that the gas is attracted to heat,
heavier than air, and:
"Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion chain reaction
rather than by physically smothering."
"Halons have been used for fire and explosion protection throughout the twentieth
century. They are low-toxicity, chemically stable compounds that, as long as
they remain contained in cylinders, are easily recyclable for reuse. Halon 1211
(a liquid steaming agent) and Halon 1301 (a gaseous agent) have been proven
to be extremely effective fire suppressants, which leave no residue and are
remarkably safe for human exposure. From protecting computer and communication
rooms throughout the electronics industry, to numerous military applications
on ships, aircraft and tanks, to ensuring safety on all commercial aircraft, Halon
has been an integral part of the safety plans in many of today's manufacturing,
electronic, and aviation companies."
I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate friend. I am also confused how someone
could die in ten seconds from lack of oxygen, even if all the authorities are
wrong.
Of course there are some guidelines and conditions that need to be observed when
using Halon fire extinguishers. There are also environmental concerns, the
most important of which is said to be ozone depletion. And it can leave toxic
residues after having been exposed to fire.
If you are interested in learning more about Halon, have a look at http://www.h3r.com/halon/, and FAA advisory circular AC 20-42C, Hand Fire Extinguishers for Use in Aircraft. Or fire up Google and search the web.
I do not plan to carry a fire extinguisher in the plane. I may decide not to insulate
the firewall, mainly due to weight and firewall accessibility concerns.
I may try it both with and without, to see how much noise attenuation there
is. I did insulate the floor with sound deadening material under the carpet.
Aircraft Spruce sells a closed cell vinyl foam sheet material for soundproofing.
They say it is acceptable for certified aircraft, is fire retardant, and meets
FAR 25.853b, whatever that is. It is about 1/4 LB and $3 per square foot.
Or we could all fly with water cooled engines and mufflers, not wear headsets,
and enjoy the hum of the propeller. Or we could just forget the whole thing and
go fly.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Newsted
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
Well put John. Along with the Bush Administration's roving TFR's, a cockpit
fire is about the scariest thing a pilot can imagine. There are however, well
proven fire-resistant mats for this purpose.
I also cringe whenever I hear anyone mention Halon. Do you realize how Halon
works? It will instantly suck all the oxygen out of a closed area. This is
how
it puts out fire, and why it is not as effective outdoors. However, in a
closed area, it stops a fire in a heartbeat. Problem is, it stops your
heartbeat in an instant too if you are not wearing an oxygen mask. About ten
years ago at Digital Equipment Corporation, we had a fire in one of our
semiconductor labs. The red lights lit up, the sirens sounded, the magnetic
doors swung shut, and some poor guy couldn't get to the door in time and
couldn't figure out how to open the glass panel with the oxygen masks in it.
He lasted about 10 seconds once the Halon started flowing. We since replaced
all our Halon systems. People think its great because it doesn't leave a mess,
but you don't want this in a closed cockpit I assure you. A good inspector
will catch this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnCClarkVA(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Gary, thanks for the link to halon information.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Halon -- was firewall insulation |
>
> "Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion
> chain reaction rather than by physically smothering."
>
Ummmm, removing all oxygen is the chemical interruption.
I'm planning to have a fire suppression header line around my injector
rail
& turbo. This will simply be a piece of 3/8 tube with holes drilled in it &
the end sealed. I'll connect it to the firewall with a bulkhead fitting,
then have a hose on the other side connected to my cockpit fire
extinguisher. If I have an engine fire I'd rather use up the extinguisher
there rather than wait until it spread to the cockpit. If I have an
electrical in the cockpit, then I just pull the hose off of the extinguisher
nozzle & use as normal.
Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher as Halon,
while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the engine
compartment to quickly to be effective. I think that if I have reason to use
it, than the mess it will make will be the least of my worries.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Gary Crowder ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Gary Crowder
Subject: Tip-up canopy release mod
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/rv9er@3rivers.net.10.12.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Greetings, Haywire.
Interesting idea. The engine compartment is certainly the place to put out an
engine compartment fire. And if you set the cabin on fire by smoking, then you
won't get much sympathy! I wonder how big the holes in the tubes would need
to be to pass the dry chemical without clogging.
Did you say that Halon is illegal? And that it DOES remove the oxygen from the
air? I'd like to know more about that, since it seems to contradict what information
I have been able to find.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Haywire
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> "Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion
> chain reaction rather than by physically smothering."
>
Ummmm, removing all oxygen is the chemical interruption.
I'm planning to have a fire suppression header line around my injector
rail
& turbo. This will simply be a piece of 3/8 tube with holes drilled in it &
the end sealed. I'll connect it to the firewall with a bulkhead fitting,
then have a hose on the other side connected to my cockpit fire
extinguisher. If I have an engine fire I'd rather use up the extinguisher
there rather than wait until it spread to the cockpit. If I have an
electrical in the cockpit, then I just pull the hose off of the extinguisher
nozzle & use as normal.
Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher as Halon,
while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the engine
compartment to quickly to be effective. I think that if I have reason to use
it, than the mess it will make will be the least of my worries.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Votuc.com" <guy(at)votuc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Gary,
What little I know about it comes from my A&P Powerplant textbook.. It does say
Halon is extremely effective in engine compartment
fires for class B and C fires ( electrical and fuel ) by excluding oxygen from
the source. Less effective for class A and D ( wood,
paper,cloth ) ... Halon has CFC components and was outlawed for new production
in 95 by the EPA. Dupont has a CFC free (FE-25)
halon subsitute they say is as effective. We could probable learn a lot from the
drag racer sites for various applications... Weight
becomes a factor as well as halon type gases disipate rapidly when not contained
and it could take a LOT of halon discharging in the
wind tunnel of an engine cowl. I think smothering it with a carbon dioxide compound
is safer.
So what do you think...Slider or Tip-Up :>)
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> Greetings, Haywire.
>
> Interesting idea. The engine compartment is certainly the place to put out an
engine compartment fire. And if you set the cabin
on fire by smoking, then you won't get much sympathy! I wonder how big the holes
in the tubes would need to be to pass the dry
chemical without clogging.
>
> Did you say that Halon is illegal? And that it DOES remove the oxygen from
the air? I'd like to know more about that, since it
seems to contradict what information I have been able to find.
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haywire
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:50 AM
> Subject: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
>
> >
> > "Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion
> > chain reaction rather than by physically smothering."
> >
> Ummmm, removing all oxygen is the chemical interruption.
>
> I'm planning to have a fire suppression header line around my injector
rail
> & turbo. This will simply be a piece of 3/8 tube with holes drilled in it &
> the end sealed. I'll connect it to the firewall with a bulkhead fitting,
> then have a hose on the other side connected to my cockpit fire
> extinguisher. If I have an engine fire I'd rather use up the extinguisher
> there rather than wait until it spread to the cockpit. If I have an
> electrical in the cockpit, then I just pull the hose off of the extinguisher
> nozzle & use as normal.
> Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher as
Halon,
> while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the engine
> compartment to quickly to be effective. I think that if I have reason to use
> it, than the mess it will make will be the least of my worries.
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
> RV-9endurance (FWF)
> C-FSTB
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Hey, Steve Sampson. Here is the info I wanted to send you. I tried sending to
you off list, but got the message returned. If you changed your email address,
send me one off list so I have it.
Regarding tip-up canopies:
Page 9-4 of the finish kit manual says to "Butt the forward edge of the C-702 canopy
skin up to the aft edge of the F-771 forward fuselage top skin. When the
canopy is in the correct position, the two skin edges will butt together across
the full width of the fuselage."
Then you fit and drill the C-614 center splice plate, etc., etc.
That is all well and good, but DO NOT butt the canopy up tight against the front
skin when you position it for drilling the hinge pin holes in the WD-716 hinge
brackets! You must leave some clearance between the canopy skin and fuselage
skin, at least in the center area between the hinges. It should have as much
as 1/16 inch gap, and the edge of the 702 canopy skin should be slightly ABOVE
the lip of the 771 skin. If it fits tight on the outboard sides beyond the
hinges, that is okay.
This is necessary because when the canopy swings open, that center section, being
above the hinge line, moves closer together, and the canopy skin will hang
up on the fuselage skin, bend the skin lip, and generally raise your blood pressure.
The portions outboard of the hinges are below the hinges, and so move
apart as it opens. It is okay if it butts up tight there.
One other note. You have no doubt heard this, but I think one of the most important
factors in avoiding plexi cracks is to make sure it is WARM when you drill
or cut, or handle the parts before smoothing the edges. I used a plexi drill
from Spruce. Turn it fairly fast, but use very little pressure, back up the
part with wood when you drill. But the main thing is don't drill unless the
shop is between 75 and 80 degrees (F of course), and has been for some time.
Plexi warms very slowly, so give it time to reach room temperature.
I abused some scraps to see how delicate the stuff is. I drilled with a regular
drill, didn't back it up, and bent pieces that had sharp edges on them, all
while the material was WARM. No cracks. So faithfully follow ALL the rules,
and it should go fine. I enjoyed the canopy work very much.
As always, if you need clarification, or have any questions, please write. I will
try to help.
Hope all is well with you,
Gary Crowder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
The guy from Ohio that makes the canopies for Van's gave a short "seminar"
at Airventrue back in July and indicated temperature was not a "big" thing.
There was no need to work in a "hot environment".
The biggest point he made was to avoid using any "sawing" type tools, but
rather use abrasive disks like those provided in the Finishing Kit. He also
talked about having drill bits with a "blunt cutting edge" that did a
"scraping action" rather than "cutting". The Plexiglas Drill Bits Spruce
builds are ground this way in addition to having a much sharper point (0
rake, 60 point).
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: RV9-List: tip-up tips
> One other note. You have no doubt heard this, but I think one of the most
important factors in avoiding plexi cracks is to make sure it is WARM when
you drill or cut, or handle the parts before smoothing the edges. I used a
plexi drill from Spruce. Turn it fairly fast, but use very little pressure,
back up the part with wood when you drill. But the main thing is don't
drill unless the shop is between 75 and 80 degrees (F of course), and has
been for some time. Plexi warms very slowly, so give it time to reach room
temperature.
>
> I abused some scraps to see how delicate the stuff is. I drilled with a
regular drill, didn't back it up, and bent pieces that had sharp edges on
them, all while the material was WARM. No cracks. So faithfully follow ALL
the rules, and it should go fine. I enjoyed the canopy work very much.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Hey, Guy. Thanks for the input. Aircraft Spruce lists Halon extinquishers for
aircraft in their 2001/2002 catalog. It says they are Halon 1301, and they make
it sound like the "Bee's Knees."
Guess they didn't give us all the information.
And no way am I biting on the Tip-up vs. Slider ploy!
Gary
Gary,
.................. I think smothering it with a carbon dioxide compound is safer.
So what do you think...Slider or Tip-Up :>)
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
To:
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> Greetings, Haywire.
>
> Interesting idea. The engine compartment is certainly the place to put out
an engine compartment fire. And if you set the cabin
on fire by smoking, then you won't get much sympathy! I wonder how big the holes
in the tubes would need to be to pass the dry
chemical without clogging.
>
> Did you say that Halon is illegal? And that it DOES remove the oxygen from
the air? I'd like to know more about that, since it
seems to contradict what information I have been able to find.
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haywire
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:50 AM
> Subject: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
>
>
>
> >
> > "Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion
> > chain reaction rather than by physically smothering."
> >
> Ummmm, removing all oxygen is the chemical interruption.
>
> I'm planning to have a fire suppression header line around my injector
rail
> & turbo. This will simply be a piece of 3/8 tube with holes drilled in it
&
> the end sealed. I'll connect it to the firewall with a bulkhead fitting,
> then have a hose on the other side connected to my cockpit fire
> extinguisher. If I have an engine fire I'd rather use up the extinguisher
> there rather than wait until it spread to the cockpit. If I have an
> electrical in the cockpit, then I just pull the hose off of the extinguisher
> nozzle & use as normal.
> Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher as
Halon,
> while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the engine
> compartment to quickly to be effective. I think that if I have reason to
use
> it, than the mess it will make will be the least of my worries.
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
> RV-9endurance (FWF)
> C-FSTB
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
How about a Tip-Up Slider:
http://www.aircraftextras.com/
The best of both worlds!
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "Votuc.com" <guy(at)votuc.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> So what do you think...Slider or Tip-Up :>)
>
> Guy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
I am working on the elevator/trim tab and am somewhat perplexed.
The directions mention nothing about drilling the hinge and in fact
imply that the hinge already has holes when it says to countersink the
spar so the hinge will fit flat but don't do anything to the hinge
holes. The drawing shows holes in the hinge.
My hinge has no holes... Is that correct and they just expect you to
know that you have to clamp everything together and drill the hinge
holes with the elevator and trim tabs? Or is the hinge really supposed
to have holes and mine is just wrong?
Additionally, the directions say nothing specifically about riveting the
hinge to the elevator. Now of course I know it has to be riveted and
the drawing specifies the rivet length - but when is the best time to do
the riveting of the hinge?
Dick, 90573
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
Okay, Dave, you win. I will give in and bite......
Sorry, but it looks like the WORST of both to me: Like a slider it is ugly, runs
on drawer rails, leaks in the back, harder to get into, prone to damage on
the windshield fairing from being used as a handhold. And even harder to build
than the slider.
It has none of the advantages of the tipper: pretty, clean lines, great visibility,
good access to behind the panel, more secure latch mechanism, light weight,
and simplicity.
It has the disadvantage of the old pre-gas strut tippers, only more so: flimsy
in the wind.
Okay, let the flaming debate begin!
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nicholson
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
How about a Tip-Up Slider:
http://www.aircraftextras.com/
The best of both worlds!
Dave
90347
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tip-up slider |
Have you ever watched a Tip-up Taxi?
There's always someone "holding" the canopy open against the prop blast.
Not such a pretty, clean sight...
Now, on the other hand, a slider allows everyone to "hang their elbow over
the edge". That's cool! (pun intended)
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: RV9-List: tip-up slider
>
> Okay, Dave, you win. I will give in and bite......
>
> Sorry, but it looks like the WORST of both to me: Like a slider it is
ugly, runs on drawer rails, leaks in the back, harder to get into, prone to
damage on the windshield fairing from being used as a handhold. And even
harder to build than the slider.
>
> It has none of the advantages of the tipper: pretty, clean lines, great
visibility, good access to behind the panel, more secure latch mechanism,
light weight, and simplicity.
>
> It has the disadvantage of the old pre-gas strut tippers, only more so:
flimsy in the wind.
>
> Okay, let the flaming debate begin!
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Nicholson
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 10:31 PM
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab hinge |
Both the Elevator Trim Spar (E-907) and the Trim Tab Spar (E-920) are
countersunk for the Elevator Skin Dimples and the Trim Tab Skin Dimples.
The Trim Tab Hinge (E-916) is placed under both spars, so there is no need
counter sink either half of the hinge.
None of the hinges provided by Van's are pre-drilled. Use the holes in the
spars to match-drill the hinges.
Check out DWG 4 - HINGE PIN SAFETY WIRE DETAIL for a sectional view of the
assembly.
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Trim Tab hinge
>
> I am working on the elevator/trim tab and am somewhat perplexed.
>
> The directions mention nothing about drilling the hinge and in fact
> imply that the hinge already has holes when it says to countersink the
> spar so the hinge will fit flat but don't do anything to the hinge
> holes. The drawing shows holes in the hinge.
>
> My hinge has no holes... Is that correct and they just expect you to
> know that you have to clamp everything together and drill the hinge
> holes with the elevator and trim tabs? Or is the hinge really supposed
> to have holes and mine is just wrong?
>
> Additionally, the directions say nothing specifically about riveting the
> hinge to the elevator. Now of course I know it has to be riveted and
> the drawing specifies the rivet length - but when is the best time to do
> the riveting of the hinge?
>
> Dick, 90573
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tip-up slider |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: tip-up slider
>
> Have you ever watched a Tip-up Taxi?
>
> There's always someone "holding" the canopy open against the prop blast.
>
> Not such a pretty, clean sight...
>
> Now, on the other hand, a slider allows everyone to "hang their elbow over
> the edge". That's cool! (pun intended)
>
> Dave
>
Actually, if someone is holding up a tilt up while taxing then they are
just trying to impress everyone. The tilt up has a position using the aft
manual secondary latch that keeps the tilt up open approx 5 inches without
anyone holding it in that position. Provides plenty of airflow on the
ground. Good idea to have it on your pretake off check-list to ensure you
have lowered and locked it down prior to take off. I had mine pop open once
(that's generally enough {:>)) and found that my body weight would not pull
it closed over 85 mph, but that popping flaps and slowing down to around
75-80 mph and pulling the nose up make it easy to close and lock.
Actually I find two things that I prefer on the tilt up. The thing I like
the best about them is the unobstructed view you get throught the canopy,
the second thing is they provide easy access to rear of instrument panel. .
However, if you prefer a slider - then a tilt up will never, never look good
to you. I think the sliders are more sexy looking and I get to hang my
scarf out the side {:>).
Ed Anderson
Tilt Up Rv-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
> I also cringe whenever I hear anyone mention Halon. Do you realize how
Halon
> works? It will instantly suck all the oxygen out of a closed area. This
is how
> it puts out fire, and why it is not as effective outdoors. However, in a
> closed area, it stops a fire in a heartbeat. Problem is, it stops your
> heartbeat in an instant too if you are not wearing an oxygen mask.
I think what we're getting into here is a lessor of two evils in the worst
imagional situation. Imagine your cockpit has open flame. Imagine
discharging a dry chemical fire extinguisher. Now imagine discharging a
Halon fire extinguisher. I'll take the Halon. I've put two of them in my
plane, one plumbs to under the cowl, the other is hand held inside. I am
very clear on the understanding that my next breath of air has to come from
an eyeball vent. I much prefer this complication in comparison to my lungs
being full of dry chemical. I believe the dry chemical could incapacitate a
pilot if enough got in his/her lungs. Halon seems like the lessor of two
evils. I have a fire drill that I have memorised and mentally worked through
many times. I hope I have engrained it enough to follow it in the worst
emergency. I'm taking the weight penalty of two sizable Halon bottles to
protect myself and my passengers. To each his own. Halon puts out fires more
efficiently than dry chem.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab hinge |
Okay, as long as I know the hinge is supposed to come without holes.
It would have been nice for Van's to at least mention that the hinge
needs to be drilled - even if it was just a "drill and install hinge
now" statement. I really don't have a problem with doing something
without directions, but it would be nice if the manual would at least
mention that you are on your own, instead of just totally ignoring it.
And, yes, I have the electric trim. :-)
Dick, 90573
Tim Coldenhoff wrote:
>>My hinge has no holes... Is that correct and they just expect you to
>>know that you have to clamp everything together and drill the hinge
>>holes with the elevator and trim tabs? Or is the hinge really supposed
>>
>>to have holes and mine is just wrong?
>>
>>Additionally, the directions say nothing specifically about riveting
>>the
>>hinge to the elevator. Now of course I know it has to be riveted and
>>the drawing specifies the rivet length - but when is the best time to
>>do the riveting of the hinge?
>>
>>
>
>Congratulations - you are at the first point in the
>kit where you have to take the wealth of knowledge
>that you have gained and apply it to solve this
>problem! :-)
>
>To answer your question, yes, they expect you
>to know that you must clamp the hinge, drill it
>and rivet it.
>
>I did mine when I had both the elevators and the
>trim tab completed.
>
>If you ordered the electric trim kit, you
>might find the installation of the servo to
>be quite an adventure, as there are practically
>no instructions for it.
>
>Best of luck!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
I agree, Norman.
Also, how well do you think a person could see out through the canopy after discharging
a dry chemical fire extinguisher in the cabin?
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Norman
To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
> I also cringe whenever I hear anyone mention Halon. Do you realize how
Halon
> works? It will instantly suck all the oxygen out of a closed area. This
is how
> it puts out fire, and why it is not as effective outdoors. However, in a
> closed area, it stops a fire in a heartbeat. Problem is, it stops your
> heartbeat in an instant too if you are not wearing an oxygen mask.
I think what we're getting into here is a lessor of two evils in the worst
imagional situation. Imagine your cockpit has open flame. Imagine
discharging a dry chemical fire extinguisher. Now imagine discharging a
Halon fire extinguisher. I'll take the Halon. I've put two of them in my
plane, one plumbs to under the cowl, the other is hand held inside. I am
very clear on the understanding that my next breath of air has to come from
an eyeball vent. I much prefer this complication in comparison to my lungs
being full of dry chemical. I believe the dry chemical could incapacitate a
pilot if enough got in his/her lungs. Halon seems like the lessor of two
evils. I have a fire drill that I have memorised and mentally worked through
many times. I hope I have engrained it enough to follow it in the worst
emergency. I'm taking the weight penalty of two sizable Halon bottles to
protect myself and my passengers. To each his own. Halon puts out fires more
efficiently than dry chem.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Nicholson" <dnick2(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall insulation? |
Halon does not "suck the oxygen" out of the air. (This would imply some
type of chemical reaction that "binds" the free oxygen in the air to
something.)
Rather, it "increases the threshold for combustion". (Remember the
"Triangle of Fire: Oxygen, Fuel, Heat"?)
The real issue with Halon is:
(1) It can "displace" sufficient oxygen in your lungs to cause anoxia.
(2) It does not work well when highly dispersed (like in a strong wind).
Dry Chemical Extinguishers are basically "Baking Soda" along with some
"anti-caking" additives.
The real risk with Dry Chemical Halon is:
(1) Anoxia caused by the propellant, CO2
(2) Vision obscuration.
The powder is not harmful itself because the particle size is too large to
get into the lungs and it is "food".
I intend to keep "sources of ignition" and "fuel" out of the cockpit as much
as possible and carry a small Halon Extinguisher. This, along with "good
house keeping", under the cowl and in the cockpit, should minimize my risk,
Dave
90347
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Firewall insulation?
>
> > I also cringe whenever I hear anyone mention Halon. Do you realize how
> Halon
> > works? It will instantly suck all the oxygen out of a closed area.
This
> is how
> > it puts out fire, and why it is not as effective outdoors. However, in
a
> > closed area, it stops a fire in a heartbeat. Problem is, it stops your
> > heartbeat in an instant too if you are not wearing an oxygen mask.
>
> I think what we're getting into here is a lessor of two evils in the worst
> imagional situation. Imagine your cockpit has open flame. Imagine
> discharging a dry chemical fire extinguisher. Now imagine discharging a
> Halon fire extinguisher. I'll take the Halon. I've put two of them in my
> plane, one plumbs to under the cowl, the other is hand held inside. I am
> very clear on the understanding that my next breath of air has to come
from
> an eyeball vent. I much prefer this complication in comparison to my lungs
> being full of dry chemical. I believe the dry chemical could incapacitate
a
> pilot if enough got in his/her lungs. Halon seems like the lessor of two
> evils. I have a fire drill that I have memorised and mentally worked
through
> many times. I hope I have engrained it enough to follow it in the worst
> emergency. I'm taking the weight penalty of two sizable Halon bottles to
> protect myself and my passengers. To each his own. Halon puts out fires
more
> efficiently than dry chem.
>
> Norman Hunger
> RV6A Delta BC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Halon DOES NOT remove oxygen from the air. The only way to do that is to
combine it chemically like a fire with some other element. The Halon
DISPLACES the air which contains the oxygen with a bubble of halon. With
the amount of new air coming from the speed of the airplane, it is difficult
to have an effective bubble under the cowl. Even in most cabins, new air is
constantly coming to the cabin. Since halon suffocates the fire, it is
possible for a human in the same location to suffocate, but so does some one
that is swimming under water. Obviously, it would be a wise idea to hold
your breath after discharging a Halon extinguisher just like swimming.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> Greetings, Haywire.
>
> Interesting idea. The engine compartment is certainly the place to put
out an engine compartment fire. And if you set the cabin on fire by
smoking, then you won't get much sympathy! I wonder how big the holes in
the tubes would need to be to pass the dry chemical without clogging.
>
> Did you say that Halon is illegal? And that it DOES remove the oxygen
from the air? I'd like to know more about that, since it seems to
contradict what information I have been able to find.
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haywire
> To: rv9-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:50 AM
> Subject: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
>
> >
> > "Halons extinguish fire by chemically interrupting the combustion
> > chain reaction rather than by physically smothering."
> >
> Ummmm, removing all oxygen is the chemical interruption.
>
> I'm planning to have a fire suppression header line around my
injector rail
> & turbo. This will simply be a piece of 3/8 tube with holes drilled in
it &
> the end sealed. I'll connect it to the firewall with a bulkhead fitting,
> then have a hose on the other side connected to my cockpit fire
> extinguisher. If I have an engine fire I'd rather use up the
extinguisher
> there rather than wait until it spread to the cockpit. If I have an
> electrical in the cockpit, then I just pull the hose off of the
extinguisher
> nozzle & use as normal.
> Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher
as Halon,
> while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the
engine
> compartment to quickly to be effective. I think that if I have reason to
use
> it, than the mess it will make will be the least of my worries.
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
> RV-9endurance (FWF)
> C-FSTB
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
>Did you say that Halon is illegal?
Halon is odorless, tasteless, colorless, leaves no residue, is electrically
nonconductive and is non-toxic. It is however a chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)
which is ozone depleting. Halon 1301 (bromotrifluoromethane) is no longer
manufactured, but can be legally recycled. You can still buy Halon fire
extinguishers. If you have a halon extinguisher, you are under no obligation
to replace it. You can even get it recharged, if you can find it.
>And that it DOES remove the oxygen from the air?
It does not suck or remove oxygen out of the air, but displaces it. It can
cause death from hypoxia, but so can carbon dioxide, nitrogen, helium,
hydrogen . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Halon -- was firewall insulation |
>
> Greetings, Haywire.
>
> Interesting idea. The engine compartment is certainly the place
> to put out an engine compartment fire. And if you set the cabin
> on fire by smoking, then you won't get much sympathy! I wonder
> how big the holes in the tubes would need to be to pass the dry
> chemical without clogging.
>
> Did you say that Halon is illegal? And that it DOES remove the
> oxygen from the air? I'd like to know more about that, since it
> seems to contradict what information I have been able to find.
>
> Gary
>
Hi Gary;
Apparently it's not illegal in the US, but I think it is in Canada, as
the
company I work for just spent vast sums of money to remove all the Halon
systems from the I/O rooms and control rooms, just to comply with the new
laws/regs.
As far as my lungs are concerned, displacement of O2, is removal of O2.
Same result for me. However from industrial firefighting experience and
probably more so from a vaguely remembered party when I was a teenager, in
which several extinguishers were emptied, I can attest to the fact that
while not pleasant, there is nothing harmful about drychem. But cleanup
certainly wasn't fun, but must be done before parents returned ;-)
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman(at)txucom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab hinge |
Get use to it. As time goes on in the project, you get even less instruction
as your skill level increases. Pay attention to the plans. they tell you
most of what you need to know.
Regards
Larry Perryman
N194DL Flying
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Trim Tab hinge
|
| Okay, as long as I know the hinge is supposed to come without holes.
|
| It would have been nice for Van's to at least mention that the hinge
| needs to be drilled - even if it was just a "drill and install hinge
| now" statement. I really don't have a problem with doing something
| without directions, but it would be nice if the manual would at least
| mention that you are on your own, instead of just totally ignoring it.
|
| And, yes, I have the electric trim. :-)
|
| Dick, 90573
|
|
| Tim Coldenhoff wrote:
|
| >>My hinge has no holes... Is that correct and they just expect you to
| >>know that you have to clamp everything together and drill the hinge
| >>holes with the elevator and trim tabs? Or is the hinge really supposed
| >>
| >>to have holes and mine is just wrong?
| >>
| >>Additionally, the directions say nothing specifically about riveting
| >>the
| >>hinge to the elevator. Now of course I know it has to be riveted and
| >>the drawing specifies the rivet length - but when is the best time to
| >>do the riveting of the hinge?
| >>
| >>
| >
| >Congratulations - you are at the first point in the
| >kit where you have to take the wealth of knowledge
| >that you have gained and apply it to solve this
| >problem! :-)
| >
| >To answer your question, yes, they expect you
| >to know that you must clamp the hinge, drill it
| >and rivet it.
| >
| >I did mine when I had both the elevators and the
| >trim tab completed.
| >
| >If you ordered the electric trim kit, you
| >might find the installation of the servo to
| >be quite an adventure, as there are practically
| >no instructions for it.
| >
| >Best of luck!
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
> Simple but elegant. I will likely use a dry chem. extinguisher as
Halon,
> while being illegal, harmful & expensive, would also blow out of the
engine
> compartment to quickly to be effective.
Actually, Halon is designed to put out flame in a blink if a certain percent
of saturation is reached. It is amazingly small.
The Halon I bought is the same stuff that 747's use to put out engine fires.
It is packed into spheres about a 10 inches in diameter at 600 psi. The
release valve is a port about an inch and a half. The valve itself is a flat
piece of steel with a shape charge on it. Send a small jolt of electricity
to it and the steel plate opens like a dump valve. The Halon is piped to the
entire engine in a ring. You can imagine how brief the flash of Halon goes
through the jet engine but it does the job. My two bottles are standard hand
valve jobs. One is hand held and the other is plumbed to the cowl.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
I appologize for my lack of proper terminology, but whether the oxygen is
displaced, diffused, or shuffled off to Cleveland, it's going to "suck" when you
try to take that next breath. Holding your breath goes without saying, and I
suspect that's exactly what my ex-coworker was doing, but when you finally have
to breath and there's nothing there, you're down for the count.
Put it this way, breathing is automatically a higher priority than flying the
plane, and that's my entire point. Unless you can hold your breath through the
entire halon burst and subsequent clearing, it's a dangerous proposition.
Breathing through a vent tube isn't going to work for long either, considering
what vent tubes are made out of. And if your cabin is burning because the motor
is burning, those forward facing NACA vents are probably the first thing you
want to close off.
Unlike a halon system, chemical systems allow more finite control of the amount
and direction of the discharge. A fire behind your panel or at your fuel panel
doesn't mandate filling the entire cockpit with chemicals.
This is yet another one of those things where individuals will be individual,
particularly if they've already invested one way or the other. Bottom line is,
think it through. There are many varieties of extinguishers to choose from.
Each has strengths and weaknesses. I don't remember the details from my A&P
schooling, but I've seen first-hand the dangers of halon in an enclosed space
shared by humans. Our company spent a small fortune to remove it from all our
labs. I won't use it.
Cy, being the Editor of EAA Safety Programs, what is the official position on
this subject? We've already heard mention of possible illegalities in some
countries, and places where it is suitable and not. Certainly the EAA has more
to say than hold your breath? Or does it?
Gary N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Interesting enough, this was on ANN today..
Fire Practice Allowed Again, Thanks to Newly-Approved Chemical
American Pacific Announces End of Nine-year Approval Process
American Pacific Corporation told us about the landmark FAA's approval of a
'Halotron I clean agent portable fire extinguisher' to replace what is
feared to be
severe ozone depleting halon 1211 on civilian commercial aircraft. The
Halotron I
extinguisher, manufactured by Amerex Corporation of Trussville (AL), has a
net weight of
5.5 lbs and was the first to successfully complete all required FAA and
Underwriters Laboratories' tests. Each extinguisher has the following label:
"FAA
Approved. Meets the Minimum Performance Standards for Handheld Extinguishers
as
defined in Report DOT/FAA/AR-01/37."
The standard for approval was the culmination of a nine-year process started
in October 1993, at the FAA Technical Center at Atlantic City (NJ).
This new Amerex Halotron I extinguisher provides an environmentally
acceptable substitution for Halon 1211 that is extremely low in ozone
depletion. It
provides what the company calls, 'an environmentally balanced alternative'
that is
needed for the airline industry. Halotron I is the most widely used halon
1211
replacement and is carried by four of the five major US fire extinguisher
manufacturers,
including Amerex, Badger, Buckeye, and Kidde.
EPA Has Effectively Banned Fire Training for Years
According to the Company's best information, there are approximately 6,500
commercial passenger carrying aircraft in the US that are the size of a
Boeing 707 or
larger that carry an average of five halon 1211 extinguishers. That's about
half
the identifiable market. As a result of the US EPA's ban on non-essential
discharges of halon 1211 (except on "real fires"), the airlines have been
unable to
conduct live fire training with the halon 1211 extinguishers now employed on
these
aircraft for more than seven years. Some airlines have chosen to use
alternate agents
for simulation, such as water.
The availability of this new Amerex Halotron I extinguisher gives airlines
the dual advantage of transitioning to an environmentally acceptable product
as
well as a product that can be used for full training programs, once again.
FMI: www.halotron-inc.com
P.S. One unfrotunate example should not deny the use of Halon. Any non
oxygen gas if inhaled with out any oxygen with cause problems just like
inhaling water.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Halon -- was firewall insulation
>
> I appologize for my lack of proper terminology, but whether the oxygen is
> displaced, diffused, or shuffled off to Cleveland, it's going to "suck"
when you
> try to take that next breath. Holding your breath goes without saying,
and I
> suspect that's exactly what my ex-coworker was doing, but when you finally
have
> to breath and there's nothing there, you're down for the count.
>
> Put it this way, breathing is automatically a higher priority than flying
the
> plane, and that's my entire point. Unless you can hold your breath
through the
> entire halon burst and subsequent clearing, it's a dangerous proposition.
> Breathing through a vent tube isn't going to work for long either,
considering
> what vent tubes are made out of. And if your cabin is burning because the
motor
> is burning, those forward facing NACA vents are probably the first thing
you
> want to close off.
>
> Unlike a halon system, chemical systems allow more finite control of the
amount
> and direction of the discharge. A fire behind your panel or at your fuel
panel
> doesn't mandate filling the entire cockpit with chemicals.
>
> This is yet another one of those things where individuals will be
individual,
> particularly if they've already invested one way or the other. Bottom
line is,
> think it through. There are many varieties of extinguishers to choose
from.
> Each has strengths and weaknesses. I don't remember the details from my
A&P
> schooling, but I've seen first-hand the dangers of halon in an enclosed
space
> shared by humans. Our company spent a small fortune to remove it from all
our
> labs. I won't use it.
>
> Cy, being the Editor of EAA Safety Programs, what is the official position
on
> this subject? We've already heard mention of possible illegalities in
some
> countries, and places where it is suitable and not. Certainly the EAA
has more
> to say than hold your breath? Or does it?
>
> Gary N.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KIKIDEEMAX(at)aol.com |
I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF WING SKELETON RIVETING AND, AM WONDERING ABOUT
THE PLACEMENT OF THE LANDING LIGHTS ON THE LEADING EDGE. I HAVEN'T LOOKED
THAT FAR AHEAD IN THE WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS, BUT WHERE DO THEY GO? WHERE ARE
THE VIBRATIONS LEAST, PROXIMAL OR DISTAL WING?
THANKS DAVID
#90079
WINGS IN
PROGRESS, FUTURE
UNCERTAIN,
BUT QUICKBUILD IS .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LANDING LIGHTS |
on 10/15/02 8:03 PM, KIKIDEEMAX(at)aol.com at KIKIDEEMAX(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF WING SKELETON RIVETING AND, AM WONDERING ABOUT
> THE PLACEMENT OF THE LANDING LIGHTS ON THE LEADING EDGE. I HAVEN'T LOOKED
> THAT FAR AHEAD IN THE WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS, BUT WHERE DO THEY GO? WHERE ARE
> THE VIBRATIONS LEAST, PROXIMAL OR DISTAL WING?
>
David,
The Duckworks lights go in the outermost bay of the leading edge, just
inboard of the fiberglass wing tips. However, there is an RV-8A builder
named Bill VonDane who has developed a landing light kit that fits inside
the fiberglass wingtips. His system is new, but now you have a choice of two
different landing light systems.
Mark Schrimmer
Working on Wings with Duckworks lights
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Halon -- was firewall insulation |
Excellent input Cy, thanks!
Gary N. (painting today, speaking of nasty chemicals...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
"Re: RV-List: posting" (Oct 16, 6:40pm)
rv7-list(at)matronics.com, rv8-list(at)matronics.com, rv9-list(at)matronics.com,
rv10-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: posting (To Forward or Not to Forward...) |
Kevin's right, except for the RV7, RV9, and RV10 Lists. The way its
been set up is when someone posts to the RV3, RV4, RV6, and RV8 Lists
a copy is automatically sent to the RV-List too. For some reason, the
7/9/10 lists weren't configured that way; probably because I added
them later and forgot that about the forwarding.
In anycase, for now I've added the forward feature the 7/9/10 Lists to keep
everything consistant.
However, I don't have a stong preference either way, actually. I can
see pros and cons to each. Would people prefer the not-forwarding
operation? Sounds like it they might...
So let's vote! Drop me an email at:
dralle(at)matronics.com
with a simple:
"Forward"
or
"Don't Forward"
in the Subject Line. I'll added up the votes in a couple of days and
announce the new method.
Matt Dralle
List Admin.
>--------------
>--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
>
>Gary,
>
>Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree here. I am a member of Matt's
>RV8-list and the RV-list. If I post a message to the RV8-list, I get
>two copies - one that comes from the RV8-list, and a copy that comes
>across on the main RV-list.
>
>I just checked my Out Box - my message to Steve was sent to the
>RV4-List only. The copy you replied too seems to have come from the
>main RV-List.
>
>Search the RV-List archives for the text " New Specific RV Lists Auto
>Forwarded to RV-List" (don't include the quote marks. You'll find
>Matt's description of how the system works. I believe it causes
>confusion, because a lot of people on the main RV-List don't
>understand that they need study the original message to see where it
>originated, and send their response to the message to the correct
>list. Otherwise, the original poster may not see the response. But,
>Matt likes it the way it is, and these are his lists.
>
>Kevin
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary"
>>
>>Kevin.....actually, messages posted to model-specific Matronics
>>lists do not automatically post to the RV list. You can post to any
>>list or combination of lists you like, but you have to send it to
>>the ones you want it to show up on.
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>From: Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com>
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV4-List: Bleeding Brakes
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
>>
>>Steve,
>>
>>.................. Any message posted to one of the RV model specific
>>list also gets posted to the main RV List. Any responses to the copy
>>of the message that goes to the main RV List only go to the main RV
>>List - they don't go back to the RV model specific list, ...............
>
>
>--------------
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith and Deanie Southard" <d.southard(at)verizon.net> |
Has anyone added additinal fuel capacity other than the 8 1/2 gallon tip
tanks offered in Vans catalog?
How much additional capacity can the wing carry out on the tips? How is
this going to affect useful load? I know in my Bonanza, tip tank fuel was
"free" in that a gross weight increase was allowed equal to the amount of
fuel carried.
Keith Southard
RV9A
Empennage Done!
QB fuse and wings on the Boat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
> Has anyone added additinal fuel capacity other than the 8 1/2 gallon tip
> tanks offered in Vans catalog?
>
> How much additional capacity can the wing carry out on the tips? How is
> this going to affect useful load? I know in my Bonanza, tip tank fuel was
> "free" in that a gross weight increase was allowed equal to the amount of
> fuel carried.
>
> Keith Southard
Hi Kieth;
Take a look at my site http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm and
look under fuel systems. I have a 89 usg capacity.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Williams" <frate.dawg(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: parking brake |
Mark: I don't have time to re-invent the wheel (or more appropriately, the
wheel brake). Having instructed some 800 hrs in Cherokees, there are two
things I'm taking from Piper---and one is the handy little "parking" brake
system which fits under the panel, easily accessible by either pilot, yet
out of the way. When you pull it, it simply squeezes a piston-type actuator
which ports pressure equally or evenly to both main brakes (a tiny bit of
additional brake line plumbing and a tee-fitting is all that is required).
"Parking" is in quotes because most pilots use this brake to stop or quickly
slow the airplane straight ahead on the runway after landing, then switch to
the toe brakes for turn-off and taxi. They work great, either as landing
brakes (very, very smooth), or as parking brakes (very simple and elegant).
But a latching pawl-type lock and release arrangement with a pull-out
knob/cable for release, affixed to the toe brakes when they are both fully
depressed, would be lighter and do the same thing for use as parking
brakes. When you design it and install it, take pictures for the rest of
us. Regards, John Williams
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrimmer" <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RV9-List: parking brake
>
> Are most of you installing a parking brake? I was surpised to learn the
> factory 9A doesn't have one.
>
> Mark Schrimmer
> RV-9A
> Wings
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Williams" <frate.dawg(at)attglobal.net> |
Keith: Good question. There was a chap on about ten days ago who is doing
a Mazda rotary in an RV-9, and who alluded to having added extra fuel. This
so piqued my interest that I asked him to share how he did it with me.
Haven't heard from him since! Musta' been something I said!
I don't have my wing kit yet, nor the large drawings, but it sure looks to
me like you could switch the position of the tank outboard end-ribs with the
adjacent wing nose ribs, and move the filler cap outboard to the next
chamber, and pick up about two gallons (estimated) capacity on each side, or
if you go two ribs out and use the whole of the next chamber, maybe as much
as 3 1/2 gallons per side. Since this wing is stressed for utility
category, it should have no trouble handling the scant extra weight. The
weight is located right along the normal fuel CG index line, so no problems
there, either. It will detract from your useful load a bit (people and
baggage), but since when do you fly around with 50 lbs of baggage each?
From an aerodynamic standpoint, engineers say that extra fuel carried as far
outboard as possible is beneficial to the wing spar with regard to the
bending moments and lessens stress on the spar.
Regards, John Williams
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith and Deanie Southard" <d.southard(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RV9-List: Aux Fuel
>
> Has anyone added additinal fuel capacity other than the 8 1/2 gallon tip
> tanks offered in Vans catalog?
>
> How much additional capacity can the wing carry out on the tips? How is
> this going to affect useful load? I know in my Bonanza, tip tank fuel was
> "free" in that a gross weight increase was allowed equal to the amount of
> fuel carried.
>
> Keith Southard
> RV9A
> Empennage Done!
> QB fuse and wings on the Boat
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "guy" <gvotuc(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Fuel link |
I believe this is the chap you were talking about... Most of this plane is GAS... http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
Guy
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Williams" <frate.dawg(at)attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Aux Fuel
>
> Keith: Good question. There was a chap on about ten days ago who is doing
> a Mazda rotary in an RV-9, and who alluded to having added extra fuel. This
> so piqued my interest that I asked him to share how he did it with me.
> Haven't heard from him since! Musta' been something I said!
>
> I don't have my wing kit yet, nor the large drawings, but it sure looks to
> me like you could switch the position of the tank outboard end-ribs with the
> adjacent wing nose ribs, and move the filler cap outboard to the next
> chamber, and pick up about two gallons (estimated) capacity on each side, or
> if you go two ribs out and use the whole of the next chamber, maybe as much
> as 3 1/2 gallons per side. Since this wing is stressed for utility
> category, it should have no trouble handling the scant extra weight. The
> weight is located right along the normal fuel CG index line, so no problems
> there, either. It will detract from your useful load a bit (people and
> baggage), but since when do you fly around with 50 lbs of baggage each?
>
> From an aerodynamic standpoint, engineers say that extra fuel carried as far
> outboard as possible is beneficial to the wing spar with regard to the
> bending moments and lessens stress on the spar.
> Regards, John Williams
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith and Deanie Southard" <d.southard(at)verizon.net>
> To:
> Subject: RV9-List: Aux Fuel
>
>
>
> >
> > Has anyone added additinal fuel capacity other than the 8 1/2 gallon tip
> > tanks offered in Vans catalog?
> >
> > How much additional capacity can the wing carry out on the tips? How is
> > this going to affect useful load? I know in my Bonanza, tip tank fuel was
> > "free" in that a gross weight increase was allowed equal to the amount of
> > fuel carried.
> >
> > Keith Southard
> > RV9A
> > Empennage Done!
> > QB fuse and wings on the Boat
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edcarris(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: posting (To Forward or Not to Forward...) |
Don"t Forward, keep the RV-9 list pure.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Fuel link |
Anyone thinking of adding tanks to their wing, would do well to read Vans
article on this very subject in a recent RVator. Sorry I don't recall which
issue, perhaps someone else has it handy. I'm reading all sorts of direct
contradictions of the words from the man who designed the plane. He wrote this
article for good reason. While I have to admire the creative ways people find
for stuffing fuel in every pocket they can fill, I'd wait to see how these birds
actually fly (in turbulence) before joining the flock. Of all the dangerous
mods you can cook up, this has got to be near the top of the list.
My two cents anyway...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: parking brake |
I went with the basic Matco parking brake for here on the windy east coast. I
fab'ed a sturdy bracket to replace the hose-to-firewall bracket. Realizing how
discouraging a failure of this baby would be (no steering, or locked wheels!),
I
took extra care to create a cable attachment that will withstand a gorilla at
the helm. The only thing I changed from the photo ref'ed below, is I switched
to 45-degree fittings to ease the routing of the metal lines. I've tugged on
this thing a whole bunch of times and it works smoothly.
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/images/fuselage/f_brkbkt1.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Bristol <bj034(at)lafn.org> |
John,
There was some talk about aux fuel but it was on the RV list not the RV9 list.
Also the folks that are considering drop tanks might want to check with the feds.
The last I heard was that they arent even legal on an actual military plane (WWII
type) they had to be safety wired so they couldn't be dropped. And, even if
that's not so, I think maybe the FBI might want to talk to you about it!
8
)
Dave -6 So Cal (I don't even have the range of my stock tanks!)
John Williams wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Williams"
>
> Keith: Good question. There was a chap on about ten days ago who is doing
> a Mazda rotary in an RV-9, and who alluded to having added extra fuel. This
> so piqued my interest that I asked him to share how he did it with me.
> Haven't heard from him since! Musta' been something I said!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: parking brake |
on 10/17/02 6:07 PM, Gary Newsted at fcs(at)jlc.net wrote:
>
> I went with the basic Matco parking brake for here on the windy east coast.
I
> fab'ed a sturdy bracket to replace the hose-to-firewall bracket.
Gary,
Cool bracket! Does it go in the exact same place as the hose-to-firewall
bracket? What did you use for the cable? Where do you plan to mount the
handle at the other end of the cable?
Thanks,
Mark Schrimmer
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/17/02 9:52:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bj034(at)lafn.org
writes:
>
> There was some talk about aux fuel but it was on the RV list not the RV9
> list.
> Also the folks that are considering drop tanks might want to check with the
> feds.
> The last I heard was that they arent even legal on an actual military plane
> (WWII
> type) they had to be safety wired so they couldn't be dropped. And, even if
> that's not so, I think maybe the FBI might want to talk to you about it!
> 8
>
>
Get a life I think we are all grown-ups. i don't think that anyone in their
right mind would utilize a "real" drop tank that terminology was just used to
describe how the aux tank looked, not operated.
Scott Morrow
RV-6A 90 %
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
Hi John;
>
>
> Keith: Good question. There was a chap on about ten days ago
> who is doing
> a Mazda rotary in an RV-9, and who alluded to having added extra
> fuel. This
> so piqued my interest that I asked him to share how he did it with me.
> Haven't heard from him since! Musta' been something I said!
>
This would have been me, but I don't recall an e-mail from you. I try to
answer all e-mails promptly, so maybe I accidentally deleted it or just
didn't receive it. I see that someone has already given you my web address.
Most of the info you want can be found there. I will one day finish writing
the procedure for building the OB tanks. After you look over the info on my
site if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
> I don't have my wing kit yet, nor the large drawings, but it sure looks to
> me like you could switch the position of the tank outboard
> end-ribs with the
> adjacent wing nose ribs, and move the filler cap outboard to the next
> chamber, and pick up about two gallons (estimated) capacity on
I wouldn't go with this approach as you would either have to make a new
longer IB leading edge skin or you would have a major seam on your tank.
Easier to just convert the OB leading edge as a separate tank.
>
> From an aerodynamic standpoint, engineers say that extra fuel
> carried as far
> outboard as possible is beneficial to the wing spar with regard to the
> bending moments and lessens stress on the spar.
This is true as it improves span loading as well as stability.
Unfortunately it also reduces spin recovery, but this should never be a
problem with proper flight management.
Hope this helps
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
>
> Anyone thinking of adding tanks to their wing, would do well to read Vans
> article on this very subject in a recent RVator. Sorry I don't
> recall which
> issue, perhaps someone else has it handy. I'm reading all sorts
> of direct
> contradictions of the words from the man who designed the plane.
> He wrote this
> article for good reason. While I have to admire the creative
> ways people find
> for stuffing fuel in every pocket they can fill, I'd wait to see
> how these birds
> actually fly (in turbulence) before joining the flock. Of all
> the dangerous
> mods you can cook up, this has got to be near the top of the list.
> My two cents anyway...
Hi Gary;
This isn't something I just came up with on a whim. It took alot of careful
planning & consideration, not just to build it correctly but also to have a
plan to use it correctly. Just as building a mod like this is not for the
faint of heart, neither is flying over vast distances of water and
inhospitable terrain.
Some people are most comfortable flying in areas where you couldn't throw
a
rock without hitting a suitable place to land, equipped with fuel pumps.
Others are drawn to the wilder, rugged corners of this rock we call earth.
Fortunately those areas have no fuel service so it keeps out the riff raff.
You must remember that Van is subject to liability issues so it is not
in
his interest to encourage anyone to modify his design. However there is at
least one of his employees that has been encouraging in his remarks about my
fuel mods. Although he always chooses his words carefully, implying that he
his in no way endorsing it.
I recently acquired 8 hrs flight time in an RV-6 with OB leading edges
tanks, very similar to mine. This plane has been flying for more than 10
years, travelling from the Canadian arctic to South America (not in one
trip'-)) and it has done it very well. While he was being told that he
couldn't do it, he didn't hear them because he was busy doing it.
Now, I'm not saying that anyone should do this. It takes allot of careful
thought and I would encourage anyone considering this to think it through
fully, asking yourself "do I really need that much?"; "will I really use
it?" & most importantly "can I do this? - safely?" But I certainly would
never discourage anyone based upon my own personal limits or the liability
concerns of it's designer.
Now I'm not saying that I won't ever have an accident caused by this, but
I
have done my best to anticipate any problems. I do know that I will die. I
just don't know how or where, but I'm sure not going to sit and wait for it.
All Men Dream: But Not Equally
Those Who Dream By Night In The Dusty Recesses Of Their Minds Wake To Find
That It Was Vanity:
But The Dreamers Of The Day Are Dangerous Men, For They May Act Their
Dreams With Open Eyes To Make It Possible T.E. Lawrence
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: parking brake |
> Cool bracket! Does it go in the exact same place as the hose-to-firewall
> bracket?
Yep. I added another row of rivets along with the existing ones. Used the old
bracket as a pattern for the new one. It's super strong. The cable is a
standard locking tee-handle cable from AC Spruce, cut down to about 24" long.
The swivel end is just a piece of hex steel stock about 1" long. I drilled it
part way through so the cable shell fits into it, then a smaller center hole for
the wire to pass through. The wire actually passes through a hole in the clevis
pin which is just floating in the assembly. Two pointed set-screws clamp the
cable shell into place. There's a small "Z" shaped bracket that serves to
prevent the valve lever from going over-center. The valve is mounted at a
slight downward angle to reduce cable bend and make it work smooth. Couldn't
be happier with it!
> Where do you plan to mount the handle at the other end of the cable?
I made a small rounded "A" shaped bracket out of angle stock that is bolted to
the vertical side rib where the fuel vent lines run (sorry I don't have the part
number, those plans were put away long ago). It's just far enough away from
the pilot so you have to reach for it and won't accidentally kick it or hit your
knee on it.
Anyway, if you go with the Matco valve, this is one proven way to mount the
sucker.
Steering by brakes always struck me as a wierd concept, but it's time proven.
Adding a parking brake into your steering system is equally wierd, but it beats
running after your plane! It's windy around here.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
> Get a life I think we are all grown-ups.
Hey, be nice. I got a chuckle out of that reply. Although the keywords were
certain to light up a few monitors down in Jersey if you know what I mean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Newsted" <fcs(at)jlc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Fuel link |
Todd, I appreciate experimentation and innovation as much as anyone, but I'll
stand by my statement that anyone considering doing this would do well to
witness a prior example first (in turbulence). Regardless of any liability
issues Van may have, I don't believe for one second that he would intentionally
lie about the mathematics of his wing design. And since I love quotes, and you
offered such a nice one, let me add to it.
"Even this brief history of aviation is already littered with failed experiments
and experimenters." [Thomas Edison].
You're a bit further on the edge than I would dare to be, but I sincerely wish
you good flying and safe landings.
August 05, 2002 - October 18, 2002
RV9-Archive.digest.vol-ag