Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-ao

August 12, 2005 - January 06, 2006



      >
      > I've posted a couple of times on here for the odd bit of info and help,
      > and as part of a thanks and 'cos it might be of interest, i've knocked
      > up a site for my fathers Rocket. Its gots some nice pics of it more or
      > less finished and a few pics in build, the odd link and a few other
      > snippets of info.
      >
      > http://www.bondedcomponents.co.uk/rocket/
      >
      > Enjoy,
      >            Lee
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2005
From: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1(at)mail.ev1.net>
Subject: Re: Lean side of peak running
Tom, >You might know this already, but I always flooded hot Lycomings and then >proceeded the startup with fuel cut off and throttle to the wall. It takes a >bit of practice to acquire the knack. I found that flooding the engine >circulates cooler fuel through the fuel system and gets airlocks and other >mysteries out of the system that comes with a hot engine. It cranks a while >but it always fired up. > >The theory, so I believe, is that if you flood the engine, then crank it >with fuel cutoff and fully opened throttle, it is inescapable that there >must come a time when the fuel/air mixture is exactly right and then it will >fire, no exceptions. The trick is to maintain sufficient fuel flow with a >combination of mixture lever and boost pump, to sustain the startup once the >first cylinder fires. > >For what it's worth. >Nico Used the same technique on my Seabee with IGO-480 and worked every time. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Subject: Re: Lean side of peak running
You should try it with 12 to 1 compression. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dorothy Ruschke" <gdrus(at)indianvalley.com>
Subject: Re: UK Rocket Website
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Nice looking Rocket. Congratulations. Gerry Ruschke N54GD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Armstrong" <kevin(at)bondedcomponents.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Rocket-List: UK Rocket Website > > > Hi guys, > > I've posted a couple of times on here for the odd bit of info and help, > and as part of a thanks and 'cos it might be of interest, i've knocked > up a site for my fathers Rocket. Its gots some nice pics of it more or > less finished and a few pics in build, the odd link and a few other > snippets of info. > > http://www.bondedcomponents.co.uk/rocket/ > > Enjoy, > Lee > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Hot starts, Was: Lean side of peak running
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Here's another hot start technique. I had tried many different ones, but the one thing that scared the shit out of me was the chance of fire. Many advocate using the "flooded engine" method of full throttle and mixture at cutoff. I've been told of another technique that seems to work even better: Give the hot engine about 1 second of prime, crazy as is sounds. Put the mixture to cutoff. Crack the throttle and start cranking. As the engine cranks, slowly bring the mixture forward and it will fire every time (for me) on the way up. When it does, it does it nice and gently, unlike the full throttle method. I've been using this for a month and it seems to work EVERY time. As for flooding the engine before trying the start, I quit this one after someone told me about the ball of fire I spit from the exhaust while trying to get it started! Rolled all the way down the belly! Nice way to light up your plane, your airport, or more! Russ HRII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Hot starts
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Russ, I agree. There is a lot of hot avgas pouring out the overflow, so the fireballs do seem to show up with that technique. However, to date I have not heard of a single fire as a result of this. I may be uniformed. I once was privileged to attend a Bob Hoover show and an Aero Commander had a hard time starting up (not Bob). We were on a balcony right above the 500B and the fireballs that came out on top of the wing were just scary. The pilot could not get the engines going and had to abandon wherever he was going, perhaps much to his embarrassment. The technique you describe works on Continentals, except the throttle is advanced slowly. If I remember correctly, the Centurion and C206 family Cessnas had the fuel pump activated when the throttle was advanced, and it is this that made the Continental technique work well, hot or cold. Once I had a hard time firing up a 310 and there was nothing we could do to even get a beat out of the engines. Maybe the Continentals got pissed off that we tried Lycoming techniques on them. Who knows. I can imagine that your technique would work since the shot of fuel would set up fuel pressure which is slowly released as the mixture is advanced, basically causing the ideal circumstances for combustion at any point during the fuel release. The flooded method uses the reverse of this process by having excess fuel evaporate until the ideal circumstances occur. Whether your technique would work with a vapor lock is not clear, but if it works without scaring the pilot into soiling his pants immediately before a flight, it is a distinct advantage. :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Hot starts, Was: Lean side of peak running > > Here's another hot start technique. I had tried many different ones, but > the one thing that scared the shit out of me was the chance of fire. Many > advocate using the "flooded engine" method of full throttle and mixture at > cutoff. > > I've been told of another technique that seems to work even better: > > Give the hot engine about 1 second of prime, crazy as is sounds. Put the > mixture to cutoff. Crack the throttle and start cranking. As the engine > cranks, slowly bring the mixture forward and it will fire every time (for > me) on the way up. When it does, it does it nice and gently, unlike the > full throttle method. I've been using this for a month and it seems to work > EVERY time. > > As for flooding the engine before trying the start, I quit this one after > someone told me about the ball of fire I spit from the exhaust while trying > to get it started! Rolled all the way down the belly! Nice way to light up > your plane, your airport, or more! > > Russ > HRII > Tom, You might know this already, but I always flooded hot Lycomings and then proceeded the startup with fuel cut off and throttle to the wall. It takes a bit of practice to acquire the knack. I found that flooding the engine circulates cooler fuel through the fuel system and gets airlocks and other mysteries out of the system that comes with a hot engine. It cranks a while but it always fired up. The theory, so I believe, is that if you flood the engine, then crank it with fuel cutoff and fully opened throttle, it is inescapable that there must come a time when the fuel/air mixture is exactly right and then it will fire, no exceptions. The trick is to maintain sufficient fuel flow with a combination of mixture lever and boost pump, to sustain the startup once the first cylinder fires. For what it's worth. Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Subject: Re: Hot starts
TRY A SLICK START, AND SHUT THE ENGINE OFF WITH WITH THE IGN. SWITCH, USE MIX, AND THROTTLE AS PER WHAT WORKS FOR YOUR ENG. AND WORK AS AN A&P FOR 35 YEARS, MIKE HRII, N212MR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Hot starts
Date: Aug 12, 2005
Also consider using a purge valve like the one Airflow Performance makes. This summer I've been using it on just about every hot start. Makes a huge difference in my case to have fresh, cool fuel circulated before trying to start up when the OAT gauge reads over 100F and you can still see the heat coming out of the cowl inlets. The concept is that the purge valve diverts fuel right before the flow divider. The diverted fuel is sent back to the tank. The engine is actually shut down using the purge valve -- completely cutting off fuel to the flow divider -- instead of the conventional method of just pulling the mixture. On startup, the purge valve is still in the purge position (the way it was shut down). I push the throttle and mixture all the way forward and run the boost pump for 30 seconds. I watch the fuel flow, which typically stabilizes around 3.5-3.8 gph. This circulates cool fuel through the system and purges all the vapor. After 30 seconds or so, purge valve in the run position, mixture to cutoff, throttle back to just barely cracked open. Start it up like it's cold. Photo of the purge valve: http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030620_purge_valve2.jpg )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (589 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <A1AVIATON(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hot starts > > TRY A SLICK START, AND SHUT THE ENGINE OFF WITH WITH THE IGN. SWITCH, USE > MIX, AND THROTTLE AS PER WHAT WORKS FOR YOUR ENG. AND WORK AS AN A&P FOR > 35 > YEARS, MIKE HRII, N212MR > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: re hot starts
I have always used the 1 second prime mixture closed method with excellent success. Like Tom when I went to the MT prop I had trouble with rapid spin up and resolved this by only cracking the throttle a\bout 3/4". Another method that works with the TSIO 520s and GSO 480s was 30 seconds of boost pump with the mixture closed then 1 second of prime and mixture off throttle open. With any of the mixture off methods I wait till I hear the engine kick before advancing the mixture as opposed to a slow advance from the git go. The slow advance is akin to flooding the engine which has caused some fires on twin cessnas. The twin commander mentioned I would bet was a 560 F with an IO540 using an ancient fuel injection system. They never like to start hot or cold. I suspect Nico could expound on that particular plane for hours. Milt N395V 320hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2005
Subject: [ Vic Skodzinsky ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Vic Skodzinsky Lists: RV-List,Rocket-List Subject: Speed fairings for fuel vents http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/john@fureychrysler.com.08.13.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: re hot starts
Date: Aug 13, 2005
Yup. Many hours. However, I am very impressed with the Rockets. Why? High power to weight ratio. Horsepower. Unadulterated brute force is the thing. I read up on the Paggio Avanti - saw one at Camarillo the other day (http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Camarillo%20Sunday%206-19-200 5/) - and noticed that they flat-rated the PT's from 1450 shp to 850 and my immediate thought was, "Why?" I know there could be many legitimate reasons, but not reasonable ones. :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> Subject: Rocket-List: re hot starts > > I have always used the 1 second prime mixture closed method with excellent success. Like Tom when I went to the MT prop I had trouble with rapid spin up and resolved this by only cracking the throttle a\bout 3/4". > > Another method that works with the TSIO 520s and GSO 480s was 30 seconds of boost pump with the mixture closed then 1 second of prime and mixture off throttle open. > > With any of the mixture off methods I wait till I hear the engine kick before advancing the mixture as opposed to a slow advance from the git go. > > The slow advance is akin to flooding the engine which has caused some fires on twin cessnas. > > The twin commander mentioned I would bet was a 560 F with an IO540 using an ancient fuel injection system. They never like to start hot or cold. > > I suspect Nico could expound on that particular plane for hours. > > Milt > N395V 320hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: re hot starts
Date: Aug 13, 2005
Sorry, the link should be http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Camarillo%20Sunday%206-19-2005/ should anyone be interested in seeing the Paggio Avanti. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: re hot starts > > Yup. Many hours. However, I am very impressed with the Rockets. Why? High > power to weight ratio. Horsepower. Unadulterated brute force is the thing. > I read up on the Paggio Avanti - saw one at Camarillo the other day > (http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Camarillo%20Sunday%206-19-200 > 5/) - and noticed that they flat-rated the PT's from 1450 shp to 850 and my > immediate thought was, "Why?" I know there could be many legitimate reasons, > but not reasonable ones. :-) > Nico > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> > To: > Subject: Rocket-List: re hot starts > > > > > > I have always used the 1 second prime mixture closed method with excellent > success. Like Tom when I went to the MT prop I had trouble with rapid spin > up and resolved this by only cracking the throttle a\bout 3/4". > > > > Another method that works with the TSIO 520s and GSO 480s was 30 seconds > of boost pump with the mixture closed then 1 second of prime and mixture off > throttle open. > > > > With any of the mixture off methods I wait till I hear the engine kick > before advancing the mixture as opposed to a slow advance from the git go. > > > > The slow advance is akin to flooding the engine which has caused some > fires on twin cessnas. > > > > The twin commander mentioned I would bet was a 560 F with an IO540 using > an ancient fuel injection system. They never like to start hot or cold. > > > > I suspect Nico could expound on that particular plane for hours. > > > > Milt > > N395V 320hrs > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: FW: Speed Fairings & Pics
Date: Aug 13, 2005
-----Original Message----- From: John Furey [mailto:john(at)fureychrysler.com] Subject: Speed Fairings & Pics Thanks to those that got the pictures up. Here is the link to see them. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/john@fureychrysler.com.08.13.2005/index. html I am ready to paint mine. Anyone who is interested in purchasing a set for $30 please contact Vic Skodzinsky directly at vjs406(at)yahoo.com he is a master craftsman skilled in metal, fiberglass and wood so if you have any special needs he is the one to hire. He is also working on the fuel drains, aileron hinge and rudder fairings however these are not available at this time but if you want them let him know. Best wishes John Furey RV6A - and F1 in the oven ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Landing a 747 on a small strip
Date: Aug 13, 2005
You might have seen this before. But that has never stopped me from sending you a story again, huh? Nico http://www.skypark.org/747Landing.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2005
From: H PAINE <bluebird266(at)dslextreme.com>
Subject: Harrys surething hot start procedure
Okay you've heard the rest now heres the Best I already have one follower Mr Russ 1. Make on your throttle quadrant where your engine idles at 1000 RPM 2. You need to have fuel flow meter for this to work but there could be a timing in seconds on how to do it also 3. Put throttle & mixture full forward hit booster pump and what for fuel flow and pressure indication I like to see about 2-4 GPH flow rate with pressure about 3-10 PSI about maybe 3-8 seconds depending on conditions ( on that hot day 117F OAT it took about 30 seconds and a couple of cycle on the pump because it was pumping air.) 4. Bring throttle back to 1000 RPM mark mixture to ICO 5. Hit start button with hand ready to bring mixture up to full rich when it starts after (with mine about 6 -10 blades it will fire off. If it starts and runs that's great but be ready to hit booster pump immediately if it starts to cough and keep it on till it smooths out. This is way better than the wide open throttle method which has resulted in increased sale to Hartzell propeller company. Try it Haven't had any unsatisfied customers yet Harry 266HP 360 HRS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Kaser" <jimk36(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Selling #60
Date: Aug 19, 2005
Hey Guys-- Much as I hate to, my F1 QB #60 is for sale. Father time caught up and passed me. I'm just not able to finish it. The EMP, FUS, EM, gear and canopy frame are done. No work done on wings, and no engine. Anyone interested please contact me off-line at jimk36(at)comcast.net , or 239-732-6233. Located in Naples, FL. Jim Kaser ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 19, 2005
Subject: Re: Selling #60
Jim, What a pleasure speaking with you this evening. Thought I would "bore" you with a couple of photos of my HR II Rocket "Airgasm". She has 202 hrs in 2 years, and has been from Mt Vernon, MO, to the San Juan Islands west of Seattle, to Portland, MN, and a couple of trips to Canada. But her main job is about 15 flights to Gainesville, FL, to see Mom. I retired from United Airlines in 2001, and had moved from California in 1994 to have my dream of owning my own airstrip. Rebel's Bluff is 2,200' of beautiful sod, located 2 miles west of town. I jokingly call myself the "Lawrence County Air Force." I do a lot of volunteer work for the Sheriff's Department, and the local newpaper. I love my airstrip, and the Rocket is like a reward for a lifetime of hard work. Hope to meet you someday, on my next trip to FL, I hope. Good luck selling your kit, Les Featherston 11853 Lawrence 1105, Mt Vernon, MO, 65712 417-466-4663 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Reno ticket available
Date: Aug 27, 2005
I have a Reno ticket for sale cheap. I paid over $600 for the box seat and Chairman's Club. I have another commitment making it impossible for me to go. The box seat is in a friends box, but gives you access to ALL the box seating areas. Your Box seat pass also gives you pit passes for the entire event. As a member of the Chairman's Club, you are able to enter and leave the Club as often as you wish. Food (including hot entrees) and beverages (including a full-service bar) are available all day at no additional charge for members. The Club has a covered area (one of the few spots to escape the sun at Reno) with an excellent view of show center and the home pylon. This is also where many of the competitors eat lunch, as it is included in their entry. This is always sold out early and the best spot to hang out at Reno! $400 or best offer. Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pop6756(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 27, 2005
Subject: Re: Reno ticket available
Hi Russ, I'm a list lurker here in Indiana. I'm Interested in you tickets possibly.I'll be working today till noon or so. Like to talk to you on the phone, here's my #'s and feel free to call collect or e-mail yours and i'll call tonight. Many Thanks, Jeff Chapman 317-858-1131 c-317-710-2697 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 90 degree cleco clamps
Date: Aug 29, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP But I was referring to the 90 degree cleco spring clamps like the ones shown in on-line catalog. www,yardstore.com cleco page. Get your skin in the gap of the jaws or have flesh between the two pieces your clamping. Instant blood blister. SNIP Been there, done that... ONCE! Many years ago I took a file to the sharp edge of the cleco jaws to round them slightly. Makes the bite less likely. I also put a little tape between the jaws to pad them so they wouldn't slide and/or scratch. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rocket Shop" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject:
Date: Sep 01, 2005
Anyone know if a 0-540 G1A5 has any potential for a Rocket? Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2005
From: H PAINE <bluebird266(at)dslextreme.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
> Hey Russ Meister: How about a trip report on your 6500?? mile adventure to PEI for the list? Harry 266HP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rocket Shop" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Trip Report
Date: Sep 01, 2005
Harry, That would be a good idea! First I need to fly a 6000 mile leg, leaving in a few minutes! Russ Tokyo > > > > Hey Russ Meister: > > > How about a trip report on your 6500?? mile adventure to PEI for the list? > > Harry > 266HP > > > > > > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2005
From: Ken Balch <kbalch(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Some basic F1 kit questions...
Hello All, I well remember how valuable the RV-list was during the construction of my RV-8 a few years back and I'm hoping to find the same sort of fellowship and technical resource in the Rocket community. I'm strongly considering the F1 as my next project and I have a number of general questions. Rather than bothering Mark F. at this point (since my kit purchase is still at least six months away), I thought I'd address them to the collective wisdom of the list. In no particular order: - How do the F1 plans & instruction manual compare to current RV materials? - How do the F1 kit parts compare to current RV materials? Are all steel parts powdercoated? Are skins prepunched? How would current builders assess the quality of the qb kits? Any consistent areas of concern? - How would current F1 builders characterize factory support, availability & willingness to provide assistance if/when necessary? - Have any F1 wings (standard or EVO) been subjected to actual testing (with sand/shot bags) to ultimate loads, or do the published limits represent calculated values only? - How many planes are currently flying with the EVO wing? What real performance benefits can be expected with the EVO wing? - Can anyone provide w&b data sufficient for me to model the aircraft and perform some 'what if' calculations for my own anticipated loadings? - How sensitive is the plane to variations in c.g., particularly with the EVO wing? - How nose heavy does the airplane feel in flight? Is most of the nose-down trim needed for level flight? Is the elevator authority sufficient for a good flare to the three-point attitude, or are most people wheeling it on? - Is the plane's handling solid & predictable at pattern speeds, ala the RV series? - Are the trim servos a good match for the F1's performance range? Not too fast at high speed or too slow at pattern speeds? - Does the control feel stiffen substantially at higher speeds, or is it fairly consistent throughout the entire speed envelope? - Is the plane good to +6/-3g at 2000 pounds, or is there a lower aerobatic gross weight? - Which model(s) of the -540 are builders typically using? - How does the F1's control feel & responsiveness (especially roll rate) compare to the RV-8's? - Can anyone provide a full list of applicable V speeds for the F1? - Can anyone provide some actual performance figures for, say, a 300hp F1? That's all I've got off the top of my head at the moment, though more is sure to follow. Once I get a little closer to making the commitment to the project, I'll have to start looking for an F1 demo flight. For now, I'll keep scouring the net for every builder's website I can find. Regards, Ken Balch RV-8 N118KB (sold) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 03, 2005
Subject: Re: Some basic F1 kit questions...
THE ONES I HAVE SEEN POOR SHEET METAL WORK ON QUICK BUILD, CALL JOHN H AND GO FLY HRII, YOU WILL LIKE IT, MIKE HR-N212HR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: Some basic F1 kit questions...
Date: Sep 03, 2005
Check out the awards at Oshkosh 05, Outstanding workmanship award, F-1 Rocket out of Stockton CA. The F-1's I have seen are beautiful and the later kits are even better. The EVO wing looks like it belongs on a business jet, very well built and designed and appears very solid. There is nothing wrong with the sheet metal work on the F-1 series. Professional engeneering has been accomplished on the Rockets, I'm not sure loading a AL wing with sand bags proves anything other than it held umpteen sand bags once, there is so much more to it than that anyway. ACRO 6 G is at a reduced weight, 1700LBs I think, but who really needs 6 Gs. 4 is plenty for everything that these airplanes need. Real world performance is solid 200 knot(230MPH) cruise at 11GPH for a 300HP F-1 fat wing, faster if you want to burn more, but that is not usually worth it. Top speed is typically 220 knots, with a VNE of 240Knots. EVO is slightly faster but not by much. The vertical component of the performance envelope is what will set these rockets apart from the RVs, but they still have all the nice handling qualities the RVs are famous for. Roll rates are higher in the rockets, 200 deg/sec compared with RVs that are about 140-160/sec. Ground handling is typical tail dragger, but with very springy gear so low sink rate landings are a must. If you like the way a -8 handles you will like the rockets better, they are better in every regard. Slider canopy on the F-1s, flip over on the HRII, although the slider can be adapted to the HRII. F-1's may be slightly faster than a similarly equipped HRII, but this appears to be only about a 5-10 Knot difference. Passenger and baggage loading is usually not a factor as the ships start out with the CG far forward when solo, and it moves aft with the load, but I can carry just about anything I can stuff into it with out worry. I use standard MAC trim servos with no speed reducers and found the rate to be just fine as is. I can trim the entire speed envelope solo,(worst case) including down to approach speed, so no problems there. Bottom line, a F-1 QB will cost you about triple up front for the kit, vr HRII kit but the finished airplane cost difference will not be as dramatic as everything that goes in the ships is the same. Compared to an RV it really doesn't cost any more to build a HRII than it would an RV-8, but the finished airplane is far superior than a RV-8. It really depends on your budget and your time, and to some extent your skill level. The support is excellent from both John H. or Mark F., so I would not worry about that either way. I think it would cost around 110-130 big ones for a F-1 and a HRII could probably be built for around 75-95, that is total cost ready to fly with reasonable VFR instruments and a 30K engine. Greg Nelson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of A1AVIATON(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Some basic F1 kit questions... THE ONES I HAVE SEEN POOR SHEET METAL WORK ON QUICK BUILD, CALL JOHN H AND GO FLY HRII, YOU WILL LIKE IT, MIKE HR-N212HR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Some basic F1 kit questions...
Date: Sep 04, 2005
The F1 QB kit has very good sheetmetal work. The workmanship is very nice and all rivets are practically flawless. I can't imagine what you actually saw....... I just read the comments from Greg Nelson and I believe he hit the nail on the head. All the Rockets fly great and it would be very hard to beat an F1 QB if you wanted to start building... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: <A1AVIATON(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Some basic F1 kit questions... > > THE ONES I HAVE SEEN POOR SHEET METAL WORK ON QUICK BUILD, CALL JOHN H AND GO > FLY HRII, YOU WILL LIKE IT, MIKE HR-N212HR > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2005
From: Granwel Esteban <burningbluephoto(at)gmail.com>
Subject: F1 Tail on HRII??
Hello all - I was wondering if I can use F1 Emp on a HRII/RV4 kit. The bottom line is that I can't quite afford the F1QB right now. Has anyone heard of the partial kit Mark is coming out with??? Any ideas on costs? Many Thanks. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: F1 Tail on HRII??
Date: Sep 04, 2005
From: "Ryan, Michael" <Michael.Ryan(at)jetblue.com>
Hi Joe, I just put money down on an F1 empennage to use in the building of an F1 or Harmon Rocket. All I know for sure is I want to build a rocket. Since the F1 emp can be used on either plane, I felt this would be the best way to gain exposure to the building process and decide whether a quick build or slow build would be best for my future. Both Mark and John have been very helpful with my questions, and I look forward to working with them. If I go the Harmon Rocket route, I will use my F1 tail along with an F1 slider canopy. As for "Mark's partial kit", I believe he is considering a kit that would allow more work to be done by the builder on the fuselage. This would help reduce the cost, but not drastically since most of the complicated EVO wing would still need to be done by the factory. Mark, please jump in and clarify if I have this incorrect! Keep in mind this information if provided by a newbie. But I'll take newbie over lurker any day! I can't wait to get started! Mike Ryan Oviedo, FL future wner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Granwel Esteban Subject: Rocket-List: F1 Tail on HRII?? Hello all - I was wondering if I can use F1 Emp on a HRII/RV4 kit. The bottom line is that I can't quite afford the F1QB right now. Has anyone heard of the partial kit Mark is coming out with??? Any ideas on costs? Many Thanks. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2005
From: blairclan <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: F1 Tail on HRII??
As far as I know there are atleast 2 HRs with F1 tails, mine is one of them. No problems with the installation - it works great! Cheers Tony ---- "Ryan wrote: > > Hi Joe, > I just put money down on an F1 empennage to use in the building of an F1 or Harmon Rocket. All I know for sure is I want to build a rocket. Since the F1 emp can be used on either plane, I felt this would be the best way to gain exposure to the building process and decide whether a quick build or slow build would be best for my future. Both Mark and John have been very helpful with my questions, and I look forward to working with them. If I go the Harmon Rocket route, I will use my F1 tail along with an F1 slider canopy. > > As for "Mark's partial kit", I believe he is considering a kit that would allow more work to be done by the builder on the fuselage. This would help reduce the cost, but not drastically since most of the complicated EVO wing would still need to be done by the factory. Mark, please jump in and clarify if I have this incorrect! > > Keep in mind this information if provided by a newbie. But I'll take newbie over lurker any day! I can't wait to get started! > > Mike Ryan > Oviedo, FL > > future wner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Granwel Esteban > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Rocket-List: F1 Tail on HRII?? > > > > Hello all - I was wondering if I can use F1 Emp on a HRII/RV4 kit. The > bottom line is that I can't quite afford the F1QB right now. Has anyone > heard of the partial kit Mark is coming out with??? Any ideas on costs? > Many Thanks. > Joe > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2005
From: f1rocket(at)telus.net
Subject: Re: Some basic F1 kit questions...
I can't believe anyone saw an F1 with poor riveting (from the factory). I've had mine inspected by a couple of guys who do airframe work for a living, and they tell me they can't believe how good the air frame quality is. Most the time I wish my rivets compared to what came from the factory. I'm a first time metal builder, and really for the most part the manual was good. Most the time when I got in trouble was when I was over reading it. Like Mark keeps telling me, just get on with it. That first hole is always the hardest to drill. As far as building, I think the metal work was the easiest. I'm struggling with the canopy right now, but will get it... The electric work was a struggle as well, and you really can't use the manual for this, but there is other manuals out there for that, and Mark has no idea what you are going to install anyway, so you can't expect him to create a manual to cover this, there is just too many options out there. All the rest though, has lots of photos etc. I know one thing for sure; my next one will build at least twice as quick, but I think everyone says that after they build a plane. When I first started thinking about building an RV, a friend of mine said, why not build a F1 Rocket? They can fly as slow as an RV on the same (or close, or less depending on who you talk to) fuel, but you still have all that throttle left. Then I went for a ride in one. Wow, no comparison. I've been lucky, each time I struggle with a part on my rocket, my new found rocket friends show up, give me advice and usually give me a ride. Then I'm motivated for the next while. Everyone I've met with a rocket seems more than willing to share, and always helpful (sometimes I don't wish to bother Mark). Kind regards, Jeff Deuchar Quoting Fred Weaver : > > The F1 QB kit has very good sheetmetal work. The workmanship is very nice > and all rivets are practically flawless. I can't imagine what you actually > saw....... I just read the comments from Greg Nelson and I believe he hit > the nail on the head. All the Rockets fly great and it would be very hard to > beat an F1 QB if you wanted to start building... > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <A1AVIATON(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Some basic F1 kit questions... > > > > > > THE ONES I HAVE SEEN POOR SHEET METAL WORK ON QUICK BUILD, CALL JOHN H AND > GO > > FLY HRII, YOU WILL LIKE IT, MIKE HR-N212HR > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2005
From: rgraham(at)ozemail.com.au
Subject: F1 kit
Ken, I can only speak as a builder as I'm not flying yet - pictures of my project can be viewed at < www.members.optusnet.com.au/ragraham >. I am building the QB, and I've found the parts are a better fit and quality than the certified aircraft I fix for a living. Mark's support has always been timely and pertinent - this is a guy who has built a number of HRII's and F1's, so he always knows exactly what you're talking about, he's been there and done it! The kit is very complete, and I had no items on backorder, everything arrived in one shipment clearly labelled and grouped by project. (This is by container across the Pacific to Australia). I suggest you go to Mark's web site and check it out < www.teamrocketaircraft.com >. There are links a number of builders sites, some flying, some still building, and several of those are virtually a builders log, complete with flight test reports. If I can build one this far away, I'm sure you can. Best, Ron Graham (F1 #105, Oz) >________________________________ Message >1 _____________________________________ > > >From: Ken Balch < kbalch(at)cfl.rr.com <mailto:kbalch(at)cfl.rr.com> > >Subject: Rocket-List: Some basic F1 kit questions... > > > > >Hello All, > >I well remember how valuable the RV-list was during the construction of >my RV-8 a few years back and I'm hoping to find the same sort of >fellowship and technical resource in the Rocket community. I'm strongly >considering the F1 as my next project and I have a number of general >questions. Rather than bothering Mark F. at this point (since my kit >purchase is still at least six months away), I thought I'd address them >to the collective wisdom of the list. In no particular order: > >- How do the F1 plans & instruction manual compare to current RV materials? >- How do the F1 kit parts compare to current RV materials? Are all >steel parts powdercoated? Are skins prepunched? How would current >builders assess the quality of the qb kits? Any consistent areas of >concern? >- How would current F1 builders characterize factory support, >availability & willingness to provide assistance if/when necessary? >- Have any F1 wings (standard or EVO) been subjected to actual testing >(with sand/shot bags) to ultimate loads, or do the published limits >represent calculated values only? >- How many planes are currently flying with the EVO wing? What real >performance benefits can be expected with the EVO wing? >- Can anyone provide w&b data sufficient for me to model the aircraft >and perform some 'what if' calculations for my own anticipated loadings? >- How sensitive is the plane to variations in c.g., particularly with >the EVO wing? >- How nose heavy does the airplane feel in flight? Is most of the >nose-down trim needed for level flight? Is the elevator authority >sufficient for a good flare to the three-point attitude, or are most >people wheeling it on? >- Is the plane's handling solid & predictable at pattern speeds, ala the >RV series? >- Are the trim servos a good match for the F1's performance range? Not >too fast at high speed or too slow at pattern speeds? >- Does the control feel stiffen substantially at higher speeds, or is it >fairly consistent throughout the entire speed envelope? >- Is the plane good to +6/-3g at 2000 pounds, or is there a lower >aerobatic gross weight? >- Which model(s) of the -540 are builders typically using? >- How does the F1's control feel & responsiveness (especially roll rate) >compare to the RV-8's? >- Can anyone provide a full list of applicable V speeds for the F1? >- Can anyone provide some actual performance figures for, say, a 300hp F1? > >That's all I've got off the top of my head at the moment, though more is >sure to follow. Once I get a little closer to making the commitment to >the project, I'll have to start looking for an F1 demo flight. For now, >I'll keep scouring the net for every builder's website I can find. > >Regards, >Ken Balch >RV-8 N118KB (sold) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2005
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Dear Listers, I will be taking the Matronics Web Server down for a few hours today, Tuesday September 6 2005 for a chassis upgrade. Archive browsing and searching along with subscription services will be unavailable for be processed normally during the upgrade. Please check the Matronics System Status Page for updates (although this page resides on the web server and won't be available during the upgrade): http://www.matronics.com/SystemStatus/ Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Lightspeed Plasma timing display
Date: Sep 07, 2005
Here's an interesting idea for those with a Lightspeed Plasma II or III system. Hook up the Plasma timing display signal to your aircraft voltmeter display through a switch so you can display your timing on your voltmeter. .01 volt + 1 degree of advance. Not sure what a retarded timing would show, but you shouldn't need that. You would want the switch to normally show system voltage, but it could be switched to show timing advance. In the case of my VM1000 display, it would also flash as it would be below minimum system voltage. Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Lightspeed Plasma timing display
Date: Sep 08, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
When I was messing with the Rose system, I simply went to Harbor Freight and bought one of their cheapo $3 voltmeters. You can cannabalize it into a nice display with a little work. What aircraft voltmeter will read the low voltage (millivolts) of the electronic ignition??? Mine won't readily do that. Vince P.S. In case there are newbies out there... the Rose mag pickup sucks. -----Original Message----- From: Wernerworld [mailto:russ(at)wernerworld.com] Subject: Lightspeed Plasma timing display Here's an interesting idea for those with a Lightspeed Plasma II or III system. Hook up the Plasma timing display signal to your aircraft voltmeter display through a switch so you can display your timing on your voltmeter. .01 volt + 1 degree of advance. Not sure what a retarded timing would show, but + you shouldn't need that. You would want the switch to normally show system voltage, but it could be switched to show timing advance. In the case of my VM1000 display, it would also flash as it would be below minimum system voltage. Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: electronic ignition
Date: Sep 09, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP P.S. In case there are newbies out there... the Rose mag pickup sucks. SNIP Oops, not very clear. My bad. I'm referring to the timing housing that replaces one of the magnetos. It stinks when used on a Lyc. 540. I've heard others say that the Rose front mounted timing pickup works fine. Apologies, Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: electronic ignition
Date: Sep 09, 2005
Vince, just a short note to let you know Jeff Rose isn't the ElectroAir guy anymore. Two guys from Michigan bought the company and Jeff was retained as a consultant for awhile. About the pickups.... The crank triggered pickup works the best but is the more difficult one to install. This pickup requires the removal of the prop to install or to service. Of course, if you haven't mounted the prop yet, it's no big deal. Typically, they never need service but as soon as you say that, something always goes haywire somewhere. Anyway, on the 540 or any of the six cylinder engines, the pickup that fits into the existing mag hole, there is a set of gears in the box and sometimes they cause all sorts of grief. Sometimes they don't but they are more prone to need service than the fixed pickup on the front. The same unit used on the four cylinder engines has no gears and works great. Direct drive just like the mags.. FWIW, I've used ElectroAir on Three different airplanes so far and I have only used the crank triggered pickup. They work great.... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> Subject: Rocket-List: electronic ignition > > > SNIP P.S. In case there are newbies out there... the Rose mag pickup > sucks. SNIP > > Oops, not very clear. My bad. I'm referring to the timing housing that > replaces one of the magnetos. It stinks when used on a Lyc. 540. > > I've heard others say that the Rose front mounted timing pickup works > fine. > > Apologies, > Vince > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 09, 2005
Subject: Can we help a fellow Rocketeer?
About a month ago I was visiting with a Rocket pilot from McComb, Mississippi. Does anyone know who this guy is or any information about him? I am realizing that he, and his Rocket were likely at great risk. If I/we could help him with a temporary storage/hangar for his airplane, or even give he and his family a place to dwell for awhile it would be nice. Please help me find him so that I can offer my hangar or my house to him for assistance in the current situation. Les Featherston "Airgasm" 217 hours at Rebel's Bluff Airstrip, Mt Vernon, MO 417-466-4663 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: From McComb
Les, I assume you are referring to me. (N395V) We were on the western edge of the eyewall when it came by winds by then (over here) were down to Cat II. The house sustained minimal damage (repaired the next day) Barns sheds trees took a pretty bad hit but that is now also cleaned up. Used to have a condo on the coast in Pass Christian and it is now a vacant lot. My hangar lost it's roof and doors and had the plane been in it it would have been toast. Luckily (if you remember a recent post) I had screwesd up my canopy and the Rocket was in a hangar in Atlanta where I am repairing it. Power returned here yesterday, water has been back on for 3 days and phone service is still intermittent. All in all we feel very fortunate. Most severe damage in Mississippi was between the beach and the railroad tracks (about 1/2 to 2 miles) Where destruction was pretty much total. Further inland (with a few exceptions damage was mainly downed trees, roofs and major badness for the utilities. Poplarville and Picayune were the only 2 cities away from the coast, that I know of that recieced substantial damage. Things here are approaching normal. Plenty of food gas etc. I certainly appreciate the thought though. I also belong to the Cessna Pilot's Assoc and was a member of the Twinn Commander List. It is amazing the concern that pilots (more thanothers) seem to have for each other during troubled times. The offers of help and aid have been quite comforting over the past 2 weeks. Milt N395V sn#69 300hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2005
From: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma timing display
Does this work on the plain-jane Plasma II, or does it require the II Plus which is designed to display advance? Jeff Wernerworld wrote: > >Here's an interesting idea for those with a Lightspeed Plasma II or III >system. > >Hook up the Plasma timing display signal to your aircraft voltmeter display >through a switch so you can display your timing on your voltmeter. .01 volt >+ 1 degree of advance. Not sure what a retarded timing would show, but you >shouldn't need that. > >You would want the switch to normally show system voltage, but it could be >switched to show timing advance. In the case of my VM1000 display, it would >also flash as it would be below minimum system voltage. > >Russ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: hr69gt(at)webtv.net (thomas utterback)
Date: Sep 13, 2005
Subject: For Sale HRII 500TT AP, IFR, Foam Fire Suppression etc,etc,
$100k 317- 381-0238 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Vx Vy Best glide
Blank What is everyone using as Vx Vy and best glide? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vx Vy Best glide
Date: Sep 21, 2005
This ought to be good...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Vx Vy Best glide > > Blank > What is everyone using as Vx Vy and best glide? > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2005
From: Norman Younie <rv6capt(at)pacificcoast.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Photos from the Frozen North]
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Vx Vy Best glide
An excellent question. And an excellent explanation can be found on my local "Missouri Pilots Association" web site written by our own Larry Harmon. See mopilots.org/sgf/jan2001sgf2.htm. Larry describes the generic values for Vx, Vy, and Best Glide speeds, and these are fine for the Rocket. I just add the caveat that the Rocket has such an abundance of power that Vx is really on the edge should the Lycoming get quiet. It is generally agreed (by most test pilots) that Vx is/or about Vs + 20%. Commonly expressed as 1.2 x Vs. In my Harmon (no relation to Larry) Rocket II, Vs is about 55 to 56 knots depending on who is counting. Computing Vx of 66 knots at full takeoff thrust would give a body angle that would be very, very dramatic. Assuming something came undone, it would require a very rapid pitch over to maintain some semblance of control near/above the desired Va approach speed (Vs + 30% or 1.3 Vs or 73 knots which is the perfect over-the fence feel airspeed). It is simply not necessary. My airplane climbs like a "rocket should" at 1.4 x Vs or 78 to 80 knots. Now, to address a very different subject......................... Vy. Oh what a strange, and vague speed that is, and how do we find it? Technically, Vy should be 1.4 Vs, again the 78 knot number which coincidentally should also be best glide speed. My explanation is that we are much like a Century Series jet fighter...........they simply forgot to put enough "wing on the thing." An RV-? wing of any kind is a short span, dare I say chubby cord, and thick wing. When we clipped our RV-4 wings to the Rocket length, we knew we were going the wrong way for gliding. Just look at the high performance sailplanes with their extremely high aspect ratio "straight razor" looking wings. My RV-4 felt-about-right at 85 knots for Vy, and my Rocket is a whole lot more like 100 knots. If I lost the engine on the Rocket, and was able to get it to course pitch, I would think a great deal about 90 to 100 knots until the last three hundred feet. And only then would I reduce to the desired 73 knots IAS. I know the other factors like weight, wind gusts, density altitude, etc., but these are just guidelines from my own very humble opinion and 700+ hours on the stubby RV wings. Ya'll be careful out there, and mainly fly the airplane where you (and it) feel comfortable. Les Featherston "Airgasm" 228 hours, and just lovin' it! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Vx Vy Best glide
Date: Sep 22, 2005
Good post Les! ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Vx Vy Best glide > > An excellent question. And an excellent explanation can be found on my > local "Missouri Pilots Association" web site written by our own Larry > Harmon. > See mopilots.org/sgf/jan2001sgf2.htm. Larry describes the generic values > for > Vx, Vy, and Best Glide speeds, and these are fine for the Rocket. I just > add > the caveat that the Rocket has such an abundance of power that Vx is > really > on the edge should the Lycoming get quiet. It is generally agreed (by > most > test pilots) that Vx is/or about Vs + 20%. Commonly expressed as 1.2 x > Vs. In > my Harmon (no relation to Larry) Rocket II, Vs is about 55 to 56 knots > depending on who is counting. Computing Vx of 66 knots at full takeoff > thrust > would give a body angle that would be very, very dramatic. Assuming > something > came undone, it would require a very rapid pitch over to maintain some > semblance of control near/above the desired Va approach speed (Vs + 30% > or 1.3 Vs > or 73 knots which is the perfect over-the fence feel airspeed). It is > simply > not necessary. My airplane climbs like a "rocket should" at 1.4 x Vs or > 78 > to 80 knots. Now, to address a very different > subject......................... Vy. Oh what a strange, and vague speed > that is, and how do we find it? > Technically, Vy should be 1.4 Vs, again the 78 knot number which > coincidentally > should also be best glide speed. My explanation is that we are much like > a > Century Series jet fighter...........they simply forgot to put enough > "wing > on the thing." An RV-? wing of any kind is a short span, dare I say > chubby > cord, and thick wing. When we clipped our RV-4 wings to the Rocket > length, we > knew we were going the wrong way for gliding. Just look at the high > performance sailplanes with their extremely high aspect ratio "straight > razor" > looking wings. My RV-4 felt-about-right at 85 knots for Vy, and my Rocket > is a > whole lot more like 100 knots. If I lost the engine on the Rocket, and > was > able to get it to course pitch, I would think a great deal about 90 to > 100 knots > until the last three hundred feet. And only then would I reduce to the > desired 73 knots IAS. I know the other factors like weight, wind gusts, > density > altitude, etc., but these are just guidelines from my own very humble > opinion > and 700+ hours on the stubby RV wings. Ya'll be careful out there, and > mainly fly the airplane where you (and it) feel comfortable. Les > Featherston > "Airgasm" 228 hours, and just lovin' it! > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bryan Carr" <b.m.carr(at)telus.net>
Subject: Empenage fairing
Date: Jun 23, 2006
What is the best fitting empennage fairing for the Harmon Rocket 2? I hate fiberglassing. Bryan Carr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 22, 2005
Subject: Re: Vx Vy Best glide
VX 90 MPH VY 125 MPH VSO 58 MPH VSI 64 MPH VA 164 MPH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JOHNTMEY(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 22, 2005
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
Wow, good information. I weigh about 150 and should have a middleweight airframe. Home airstrip is 1600' paved with 500' solid grassy smooth runout. Paved about 35' wide and has 80' trees at one end. I won't try landing there until well-practiced. Wheel landings are my favorite mode. Complex is current. Guess I will see what the insurers say. Can one get any coverage in the flight test phase ? My engine is re-built as a C4B5 but is undoc-ed and logless. Guess that's experimental. Let's see... 40 hours at 15 gph x $10/gallon equals... gulp * John Meyers do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Empenage fairing
Date: Sep 23, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Bryan, I have made both all aluminum and all fiberglass RV-4/Rocket empenage fairings. I copied what I did off of others that I saw at Oshkosh. You can use flat wrapped aluminum, U-section rubber moulding, etc. to make an all aluminum tail fairing. It's a heckuva lot less work than fiberglass and it won't warp. But it can be tricky to get the aluminum to do want you want on the first, second or third try. But it can definitely be done. Make some patterns out of shoebox cardboard and go wild. My fairings required 9 pieces. One piece for each leading edge. Two sides pieces and two aft parts. And two thin fillers below the HS. The rubber moulding isn't required if you do it right. But it can be handy to fill small gaps below the HS. Good luck, Vince From: "Bryan Carr" <b.m.carr(at)telus.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Empenage fairing What is the best fitting empennage fairing for the Harmon Rocket 2? I hate fiberglassing. Bryan Carr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2005
From: Russ <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
Some misc. thoughts on the subject: I know some who are comfortable with shorter and more narrow runways than me, but I find several things to be challenging in the Rocket. Runways narrower than 50 feet don't allow much to see when the tail comes down. Wheel landings help, but I can stop the plane much faster with a nearly 3 point landing. Wheeling onto a 1500 paved runway would be tough for me. Slow, power-on approaches work best for me on short runways. Power comes off AFTER breaking the descent. Guys are getting insurance for the first flights IF they have some quality, relative aircraft type time. Often they need time in type. Rates. My first year was 3700 with 130 hull. Just renewed and changed companies and got it for 2900 through Global. I had 250 tailwheel and 15000 total. At renewal I had 475 tailwheel with 230 in an HRII. RV time helps. Fuel. With experience it is easy to average burns well below 15 gph. It's a bit harder during testing and break-in. Most important: A one buck increase in the price of gas will increase your per-hour cost to fly by 10-12 bucks an hour. That won't keep most of us out of our birds! Russ ...... Original Message ....... > >Wow, good information. > >I weigh about 150 and should have a middleweight airframe. > >Home airstrip is 1600' paved with 500' solid grassy smooth runout. Paved >about 35' wide and has 80' trees at one end. > >I won't try landing there until well-practiced. Wheel landings are my >favorite mode. Complex is current. Guess I will see what the insurers say. > >Can one get any coverage in the flight test phase ? > >My engine is re-built as a C4B5 but is undoc-ed and logless. Guess that's >experimental. Let's see... 40 hours at 15 gph x $10/gallon equals... gulp * > >John Meyers do not archive > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Empenage fairing
Date: Sep 23, 2005
Why do you hate fiberglass? It dosent hate you? Why do all you rv metal heads hate 'glass? Treat it like the high accuracy precision material it wants to be and you will have a lot more success. Here are a few pointers: 1. Use a sharpie marker to lay out the outline of the piece you are laying up. Cut the glass an inch or more beyond the trim lines you just drew. 2. Get the tail surfaces and intersection areas formed up in clay and get them precise before getting resin any where near them. 3. Use clear packing tape as a release agent. Lay it down smooth and wrinkle free. Then add carnuba(wood floor) wax coats, 3-5 typically. 4. Use very, very light coats of spray adhesive to hold the cloth in place on the form. This works like magic. 5. After that, and only after the glass is exactly how you want it, when it is done - add resin. At this point what you see is what you will get. You will not get good results by adding resin. Resin will complicate things not simplify, hide, or smooth things out. By far the spray adhesive is the best trick I have ever found in 30 years of glassin' to make glass work tolerable. Treat the materials with attention, respect, accuracy, work clean, and you will be rewarded with excellent results. Be nice to fiberglass and it will be nice to you. If you feel the yang. . . . or , uh, itch. You arent doing it right. Ron Carter HR2 #49 517 ttsn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Carr" <b.m.carr(at)telus.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Empenage fairing > > What is the best fitting empennage fairing for the Harmon Rocket 2? > I hate fiberglassing. > Bryan Carr > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Milt" <rocket(at)swmrmc.org>
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
Date: Sep 23, 2005
RPD=4.00.0003; RPDID=303030312E30413039303230332E34333334324244412E303037362D412D; ENG=IBF; TS=20050923163620; CAT=NONE; CON=NONE; Wow! never expected this much of a response esp ; Airgasms excellent dissertation on speeds. I have been using 90KTS VX, 120 VY and 110-120 Best glide. Not for any scientific reason but because they feel good. The caveat is I have a Blue Mountain EFIS. I have never seen one register anything other than 35KTS when sitting still. Below 100KTS mine is grossly innacurate and my IAS at stall is 67 KTS Vsi and 62KTS Vso. Like Les climbing off the deck at 1.2 Vsi is an angle I find uncomfortable in the event of engine failure. I frequently fly into a 2000' grass strip over 70'+ trees approx 200 feet off the approach end of the runway. Come in steep at 90 KIAS (on my BluMntn) the numbers at about 75-80KIAS. (I usually stall before I can 3 point it). If all goes well I can usually get stopped at about the halfway point. Not too infrequently it doesn't all go well and I end up going around which isn't a problem as there are no obstacles at the departure end. Coming in from the other end I use a flatter approach otherwise the same . On occasion I have botched this and the go around over the trees has not been a problem. After 200+ hours my landings still need work. Maybe at 1000hrs I will become consistent I asked the question originally because on my maiden cross country I lost power and had to put down on a short grass strip with not much more than idle power. It was not a pretty landing. It appears a contaminent had gotten into the fuel and the screen in the throttle body had varnished over as if it had beenrunning on Mogas. Next day I went out and spent an hour practicing deadstick approaches (not landings) and I have come to the conclusion that the sink rate at any airspeed is such that you can probably walk away from the landing but will probably be doing some repairs. Has anyone put one of these on the ground absolutely powerless? Insurance!!!!ARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! I only have about 500hrs taildragger time about 260 of that in the Rocket. 90% of my time is in twins. With a com, inst, me and cfi tickets the best quote I could get for 110K hull value was $4800. I have settled for ground only not in motion ins and it is $3200. If I didn't think the Rocket was better than sex and wasn't addicted to it I would move to an RV 8 just because of insurance. But alas I am infected with Rocket fever. Canopy parts arrived yesterday. Hopefully I'll be back in the air in a month or so. Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re:Performance and Cert > > Some misc. thoughts on the subject: > > I know some who are comfortable with shorter and more narrow runways than > me, but I find several things to be challenging in the Rocket. Runways > narrower than 50 feet don't allow much to see when the tail comes down. > Wheel landings help, but I can stop the plane much faster with a nearly 3 > point landing. Wheeling onto a 1500 paved runway would be tough for me. > Slow, power-on approaches work best for me on short runways. Power comes > off AFTER breaking the descent. > > Guys are getting insurance for the first flights IF they have some quality, > relative aircraft type time. Often they need time in type. > > Rates. My first year was 3700 with 130 hull. Just renewed and changed > companies and got it for 2900 through Global. I had 250 tailwheel and > 15000 total. At renewal I had 475 tailwheel with 230 in an HRII. RV time > helps. > > Fuel. With experience it is easy to average burns well below 15 gph. It's > a bit harder during testing and break-in. > > Most important: > A one buck increase in the price of gas will increase your per-hour cost to > fly by 10-12 bucks an hour. That won't keep most of us out of our birds! > > Russ > > > ...... Original Message ....... > > > >Wow, good information. > > > >I weigh about 150 and should have a middleweight airframe. > > > >Home airstrip is 1600' paved with 500' solid grassy smooth runout. Paved > >about 35' wide and has 80' trees at one end. > > > >I won't try landing there until well-practiced. Wheel landings are my > >favorite mode. Complex is current. Guess I will see what the insurers say. > > > >Can one get any coverage in the flight test phase ? > > > >My engine is re-built as a C4B5 but is undoc-ed and logless. Guess that's > >experimental. Let's see... 40 hours at 15 gph x $10/gallon equals... gulp * > > > >John Meyers do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2005
From: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1(at)mail.ev1.net>
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
>Next day I went out and spent an hour practicing deadstick approaches (not >landings) and I have come to the conclusion that the sink rate at any >airspeed is such that you can probably walk away from the landing but will >probably be doing some repairs. > >Has anyone put one of these on the ground absolutely powerless? Not a Rocket but I did an RV3, Had about 1700 hrs on the airplane and thought I knew it pretty well but was AMAZED at the difference in sink rate at idle power and sink rate with the prop stopped. John Bolding ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 23, 2005
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
You do the PRS at Reno and you have to demo your skills which includes a dead stick landing. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 23, 2005
Subject: Re: Empenage fairing
Ron, You just explained better than any of us ever could; "why do we hate fiberglass!" Thank you, One who knows! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 23, 2005
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
Airspeed is your friend! Having said that, "I hope none of you ever, EVER, have to remember that! But when it get's quiet, remember my voice..............AIRSPEED IS YOUR FRIEND! Please fly is "the way it feel's" and not the way the book says. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re:Performance and Cert
Date: Sep 23, 2005
I agree. There is, however, a legitimate argument about having too much speed, as opposed to altitude, when losing the engine on takeoff. I tend to fly like you do, Les, having a safe cushion of airspeed above the vairous speeds on takeoff, especially vmc in me aircraft. I should, one day, see what you guys are getting all worked up about flying the Rockets. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re:Performance and Cert > > Airspeed is your friend! Having said that, "I hope none of you ever, EVER, > have to remember that! But when it get's quiet, remember my > voice..............AIRSPEED IS YOUR FRIEND! Please fly is "the way it feel's" and not the > way the book says. Les > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Empenage fairing
Date: Sep 26, 2005
Whiner! ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Empenage fairing > > Ron, You just explained better than any of us ever could; "why do we hate > fiberglass!" Thank you, One who knows! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bryan Carr" <b.m.carr(at)telus.net>
Subject: Metal emp. fairing
Date: Jun 27, 2006
Does anyone have any pictures of a metal empennage fairing for a Rocket or RV-4? Vince Frazier said he made one but has no pics. Suggested I ask the listers. I still hate fiberglassing Bryan Carr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Allen <skyboltn(at)earthlink.net>
Subject:
Date: Sep 27, 2005
Can anyone give a semi-short answer as to which 540's will work on the F-1 besides the C4B5? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject:
Date: Sep 27, 2005
Mark There are lots of 540 blocks that will fit on a rocket. Some key items are the large holes on the mounting ears, a hollow crank that can be fitted with the proper counterweights, the proper fuel pump pad, sump etc. If you go to the Lycoming website you can get a list of all the engines and configurations. Start with the C4B5 and work backwards. Sometimes the only difference between it and another acceptable engine is something simple like slick vs. bendix mags, as an example. Tom Martin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Allen Subject: Rocket-List: Can anyone give a semi-short answer as to which 540's will work on the F-1 besides the C4B5? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2005
From: Ken Balch <kbalch(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
Can the -K series be easily made to fit? It's a little heavier than the -C & -D engines, but starting with 300HP before modding with high compression pistons, etc. is looking really attractive... Ken Mark Allen wrote: > >Can anyone give a semi-short answer as to which 540's will work on the >F-1 besides the C4B5? > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 27, 2005
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
IO-540 GIA5 WILL WORK FINE, IT HAS BIG MAIN, SMALL ROD. EXTRA HEAVY CASE, MUCH STRONGER CRANK, ONLY A FEW LBS HEAVER, MIKE HRII N212MR O HRS, 30 YRS A&P ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: empennage fairing
Date: Sep 27, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP Does anyone have any pictures of a metal empennage fairing for a Rocket or RV-4? Vince Frazier said he made one but has no pics. Suggested I ask the listers. I still hate fiberglassing Bryan Carr SNIP Here's a similar fairing that I found online: http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/images/fs_tail_fairing.jpg Definitely not an RV, but the concept is the same. I have several paper photos at home somewhere. I'll scan them and post them tomorrow.... assuming that I can find them! One of the RV's that I copied my RV-4 tail fairings from was a yellow RV that had "Tweety Bird" on the front. There are many others. This isn't an uncommon item. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Schneider" <lschneider39(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: empennage fairing
Date: Sep 27, 2005
These guys were true metal men. They have made some RV metal fairings. http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/barn.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> Subject: Rocket-List: empennage fairing > > > SNIP Does anyone have any pictures of a metal empennage fairing for a > Rocket or RV-4? Vince Frazier said he made one but has no pics. > Suggested I ask the listers. I still hate fiberglassing Bryan Carr > SNIP > > Here's a similar fairing that I found online: > http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/images/fs_tail_fairing.jpg Definitely > not an RV, but the concept is the same. > > I have several paper photos at home somewhere. I'll scan them and post > them tomorrow.... assuming that I can find them! > > One of the RV's that I copied my RV-4 tail fairings from was a yellow RV > that had "Tweety Bird" on the front. There are many others. This isn't > an uncommon item. > > Vince > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2005
From: Mark Frederick <f1boss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/27/05
> > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Mark Allen <skyboltn(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Rocket-List: > > > Can anyone give a semi-short answer as to which 540's will work on the > F-1 besides the C4B5? > > > Hi Fellas: The HR series is sensitive to nose weight -- I can't advise anything other than what the ship was designed for: straight valve 540 series The F1 std wing ships are similiar, but can be fitted with the 3 blade Hartzell..I can't recommend anything other than the straight valve 540s on this ship either (nose weight again) As for the G series, it may be that one of these could be fitted to the F1 Evo, as the wing was moved fwd on this version. Still, the G weighs ~48 lbs more than the straight valve...and the nose is not my choice of places to add weight... The straight valve engines can be reliable at 320HP or slightly more -- but don't plan on running Mogas at any point! I suggest talking to your engine guy, and see what his advice is regarding a pumped-up straight valve 540. Those motors are actually pretty tough, if temps are kept in line. As for where to start or which straight valve models can be fitted, I recall any but the C182 540s can be easily modified to fit (mount ears, crank counterweights, FI system etc). I know of one fellow who started with the 235HP O540-A (fixed pitch!) and made it work! Ihave used an E series; a D series, and of course a few Cs...bottom line is that you want to end up with an engine that conforms with the C4D5 design. Many ways to get there... Carry on! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: aluminum empennage fairing
Date: Sep 28, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
These guys were true metal men. They have made some RV metal fairings. http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/barn.htmI SNIP SNIP I have several paper photos at home somewhere. I'll scan them and post them tomorrow.... assuming that I can find them! Vince SNIP********* ************************************************************************ *********** I looked at the metal fairings made in "Thuh Barn" WOW, nice. But here's a photo of a few all aluminum fairings made by average Joes... including me. http://vincesrocket.com/aluminum%20tail%20fairing.jpg The photo is large, so if it appears rather small in your browser, click and enlarge it to see the details. My apologies for the fact that it is a digital photo of several paper photos. It loses a little detail but should give you enough detail to make your own. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2005
Subject: (no subject)
Anyone in or near NC? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2005
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/27/05
PUT STRIGHT VALVE CYL'S ON A G1A5, WT . ABOUT THE SAME AS A C4B5, YOU HAVE A STRONGER CASE, I HAVE WEIGHT BOTH CASES, ONLY ABOUT 2 LB'S MORE ON THE G1A5. I WOULD NOT USE 182, 540 . LOOK AT THE CRANK, IT HAS WEAK FLANGE. NOT ON MY ROCKET,, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Canyon View Ranch" <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: ROCKET
Date: Oct 01, 2005
Hello, I am considering purchasing a HARMON ROCKET, F1, SUPER 8, or RV8. Do you know of any that are currently for sale? Must be Very High Quality build! Hi-res photos and specs please. Thanks MM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff" <F1Rocket(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Date: Oct 01, 2005
Hi MM, Check with Eric Hansen (email above). The plane is on Barnstormers. It is very high build quality. I'm building one, and I wish I could build as nice as this one! Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Canyon View Ranch" <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net> Subject: Rocket-List: ROCKET > > > Hello, > > I am considering purchasing a HARMON ROCKET, F1, SUPER 8, or RV8. > > Do you know of any that are currently for sale? > Must be Very High Quality build! > > Hi-res photos and specs please. > > Thanks > MM > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Canyon View Ranch" <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Date: Oct 02, 2005
Hi Jeff, thanks for the lead. I talked with Eric and it sounds like a pretty nice plane. Still needs to be finished. I am hoping to find an F1 already flying but I may consider this one. Any other leads will be appreciated. Have a great day! Michael Moran ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: ROCKET Hi MM, Check with Eric Hansen (email above). The plane is on Barnstormers. It is very high build quality. I'm building one, and I wish I could build as nice as this one! Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Canyon View Ranch" <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net> To: Subject: Rocket-List: ROCKET > > > Hello, > > I am considering purchasing a HARMON ROCKET, F1, SUPER 8, or RV8. > > Do you know of any that are currently for sale? > Must be Very High Quality build! > > Hi-res photos and specs please. > > Thanks > MM > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Look under homebuilt/VANS in trade a plane. ----- Original Message ----- From: Canyon View Ranch To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 4:39 PM Subject: Rocket-List: ROCKET Hello, I am considering purchasing a HARMON ROCKET, F1, SUPER 8, or RV8. Do you know of any that are currently for sale? Must be Very High Quality build! Hi-res photos and specs please. Thanks MM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Canyon View Ranch" <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Date: Oct 02, 2005
Thanks for the lead. I am looking in most of the common pubs. Any other referrals are appreciated. Thanks again for your time and effort. MM ----- Original Message ----- From: N395V To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: ROCKET Look under homebuilt/VANS in trade a plane. ----- Original Message ----- From: Canyon View Ranch To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 4:39 PM Subject: Rocket-List: ROCKET Hello, I am considering purchasing a HARMON ROCKET, F1, SUPER 8, or RV8. Do you know of any that are currently for sale? Must be Very High Quality build! Hi-res photos and specs please. Thanks MM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WFACT01(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 03, 2005
Subject: Re: ROCKET
HI-SUPER RV-8--IO540S1AD---350+hp---GARMIN-430-250-AP-SMOKE-80GAL FUEL MUCH MORE---$165,00----GOING OUT FOR PAINT----62HRS--TOM TOM WHELAN 249 HARDHILL RD NORTH BETHLEHEM CT. 06751 WFACT01(at)AOL.COM TEL-203-2665300 FAX 203 266-5140 AIRPORT-CT01-----122.725 RV-8-SP-IO-540-350+HP---62HRS S-51-MUSTANG-TURBINE F-24 FAIRCHILD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2005
From: M M <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Hello, Please send specs, hi-res photos, asking price, location. Thanks MM WFACT01(at)aol.com wrote: HI-SUPER RV-8--IO540S1AD---350+hp---GARMIN-430-250-AP-SMOKE-80GAL FUEL MUCH MORE---$165,00----GOING OUT FOR PAINT----62HRS--TOM TOM WHELAN 249 HARDHILL RD NORTH BETHLEHEM CT. 06751 WFACT01(at)AOL.COM TEL-203-2665300 FAX 203 266-5140 AIRPORT-CT01-----122.725 RV-8-SP-IO-540-350+HP---62HRS S-51-MUSTANG-TURBINE F-24 FAIRCHILD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: hr69gt(at)webtv.net (thomas utterback)
Date: Oct 03, 2005
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Price is 100k. Did you recieve the equip list, photo and other info I sent you? Thaks, Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: hr69gt(at)webtv.net (thomas utterback)
Date: Oct 03, 2005
Subject: Re: ROCKET
Whoops, I missed your request for location. I'm in Indianapolis west side @ 2R2. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2005
From: M M <canyon_view_ranch(at)sbcglobal.net>
Thanks Tom, I did get the info. I have had many replys and I am considering a few that are close to me here in CA I appreciate your time and effort. MM thomas utterback wrote: Price is 100k. Did you recieve the equip list, photo and other info I sent you? Thaks, Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Copperstate
Date: Oct 04, 2005
Anyone going to Copperstate? Saturday, Sunday or both? Russ HRII, Park City ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate
Date: Oct 04, 2005
Yeeeahh- I dunnow. Got any great plans for the show? Have you asked Wayne or any other local Rocket fliers? I will go if several of us commit. weather this wekend is not going to be great up here. Ron Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > Anyone going to Copperstate? Saturday, Sunday or both? > > Russ > HRII, Park City > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate
Date: Oct 04, 2005
Hey thats this weekend. I am not going. Ron Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > Anyone going to Copperstate? Saturday, Sunday or both? > > Russ > HRII, Park City > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate
Date: Oct 04, 2005
I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ernest Hale <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Has anyone looked into the Innodyn turbine engine, the report I read said that it has been on an RV-4 since 2002. Sure would like to eventually tie about 500 hp to the front of my rocket. On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Wernerworld wrote: > > > I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. > > Russ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Don't waste your time or your money..... Think I0-540 and be real happy. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Hale" <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > Has anyone looked into the Innodyn turbine engine, the report I read > said that it has been on an RV-4 since 2002. Sure would like to > eventually tie about 500 hp to the front of my rocket. > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Wernerworld wrote: > > > > > > > I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. > > > > Russ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate
Date: Oct 05, 2005
500 would almost be enough. Do I hear 550? Russ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Hale" <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > Has anyone looked into the Innodyn turbine engine, the report I read > said that it has been on an RV-4 since 2002. Sure would like to > eventually tie about 500 hp to the front of my rocket. > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Wernerworld wrote: > >> >> >> I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. >> >> Russ >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2005
From: arvil(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Fred, Turbines, are the wave of the future, as they start to come down in price you will see more and more of them, Turbines have proven to be very reliable and have a good services life Arvil Fred Weaver wrote: > > Don't waste your time or your money..... Think I0-540 and be real happy. > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernest Hale" <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > > > > Has anyone looked into the Innodyn turbine engine, the report I read > > said that it has been on an RV-4 since 2002. Sure would like to > > eventually tie about 500 hp to the front of my rocket. > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Wernerworld wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. > > > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)AOL.COM
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Subject: Innodyn
I would like to comment that maybe turbine engines are the "wave of the future", but turboprops have been long superseded by HIGH BYPASS turbojets. There is no way to make a high bypass turboprop! And a late design high bypass turbojet only mixes fuel with about 20% of the air that passes though it, and in reality it is a "ducted fan' engine. These are not as efficient as a piston engine with a prop, but far exceed a turboprop. I noticed in the Innodyn articles that I saw published, that no fuel consumption figures were included. (or only that it would burn about 10gph at very low horse power.) Fuel equals power, and with Jet A costing more than 100LL I believe that 500 hp would cost 40gph or more. A friend of mine has a Walter Turboprop (725 HP) on his Sukhoi 26 purely for vertical acceleration in his air show. He talks about fuel consumption in cruise flight of 46 to 48gph. Having said all of this, I just love my Lycoming IO-540 C4B5. I had the injection nozzles "tuned" by Don Rivera of Air Research Inc. in Spartanburg, and my cruise fuel consumption is 9.2 gph 53% power, smooth as a turbine, and the Rocket goes 186KTs. When I want to pay the bill, it goes the "N" number at 13.6 gph, 75% power. I believe I can climb to 7,500" on less fuel (2.5 gallons) than a turboprop uses on a long taxi out. Sorry, but the greatest minds in the world tried every source of power plants (i.e. steam, electricity, chicken manure, etc.) in the 19th Century, and all came to the conclusion that internal combustion engines "do the deed." Thanks for reading my diatribe! Be Happy! Go LYCO! Les Featherston N206KT "Airgasm" has 233 hours and cannot be beaten in the fun-per-hour-at-low-cost contest. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 05, 2005
No kidding! I thought (perhaps there lies the rub) a turboprop is nothing but an extended high bypass turbojet. The air doesn't pass through a duct but the principle remains the same. With variable pitch and other fancy stuff that a prop can do they still determined that a high bypass turbojet is more efficient than a turboprop? (It will be at high speed, I guess, but otherwise?) I ask because I don't know. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)AOL.COM> Subject: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > I would like to comment that maybe turbine engines are the "wave of the > future", but turboprops have been long superseded by HIGH BYPASS turbojets. > There is no way to make a high bypass turboprop! And a late design high bypass > turbojet only mixes fuel with about 20% of the air that passes though it, and > in reality it is a "ducted fan' engine. These are not as efficient as a > piston engine with a prop, but far exceed a turboprop. I noticed in the Innodyn > articles that I saw published, that no fuel consumption figures were > included. (or only that it would burn about 10gph at very low horse power.) Fuel > equals power, and with Jet A costing more than 100LL I believe that 500 hp would > cost 40gph or more. A friend of mine has a Walter Turboprop (725 HP) on his > Sukhoi 26 purely for vertical acceleration in his air show. He talks about > fuel consumption in cruise flight of 46 to 48gph. Having said all of this, I > just love my Lycoming IO-540 C4B5. I had the injection nozzles "tuned" by > Don Rivera of Air Research Inc. in Spartanburg, and my cruise fuel consumption > is 9.2 gph 53% power, smooth as a turbine, and the Rocket goes 186KTs. > When I want to pay the bill, it goes the "N" number at 13.6 gph, 75% power. I > believe I can climb to 7,500" on less fuel (2.5 gallons) than a turboprop uses > on a long taxi out. Sorry, but the greatest minds in the world tried every > source of power plants (i.e. steam, electricity, chicken manure, etc.) in the > 19th Century, and all came to the conclusion that internal combustion > engines "do the deed." Thanks for reading my diatribe! Be Happy! Go LYCO! > Les Featherston N206KT "Airgasm" has 233 > hours and cannot be beaten in the fun-per-hour-at-low-cost contest. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Hey Les, Is that Don Rivera of Airflow performance or Air Research? Jim Stone HRII ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)AOL.COM> Subject: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > I would like to comment that maybe turbine engines are the "wave of the > future", but turboprops have been long superseded by HIGH BYPASS > turbojets. > There is no way to make a high bypass turboprop! And a late design high > bypass > turbojet only mixes fuel with about 20% of the air that passes though it, > and > in reality it is a "ducted fan' engine. These are not as efficient as a > piston engine with a prop, but far exceed a turboprop. I noticed in the > Innodyn > articles that I saw published, that no fuel consumption figures were > included. (or only that it would burn about 10gph at very low horse > power.) Fuel > equals power, and with Jet A costing more than 100LL I believe that 500 > hp would > cost 40gph or more. A friend of mine has a Walter Turboprop (725 HP) on > his > Sukhoi 26 purely for vertical acceleration in his air show. He talks > about > fuel consumption in cruise flight of 46 to 48gph. Having said all of > this, I > just love my Lycoming IO-540 C4B5. I had the injection nozzles "tuned" > by > Don Rivera of Air Research Inc. in Spartanburg, and my cruise fuel > consumption > is 9.2 gph 53% power, smooth as a turbine, and the Rocket goes 186KTs. > When I want to pay the bill, it goes the "N" number at 13.6 gph, 75% > power. I > believe I can climb to 7,500" on less fuel (2.5 gallons) than a turboprop > uses > on a long taxi out. Sorry, but the greatest minds in the world tried > every > source of power plants (i.e. steam, electricity, chicken manure, etc.) in > the > 19th Century, and all came to the conclusion that internal combustion > engines "do the deed." Thanks for reading my diatribe! Be Happy! Go > LYCO! > Les Featherston N206KT "Airgasm" has > 233 > hours and cannot be beaten in the fun-per-hour-at-low-cost contest. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Looking for prop
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Hello Rocket group I am in need of a prop for my HRII project, anybody switch to a three blade and have a 2 blade Hartzell laying around they don't need? Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas utterback Whoops, I missed your request for location. I'm in Indianapolis west side @ 2R2. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Subject: Re: Looking for prop
Hi Kevin, There is a Hartzell 2 blade on my website _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) on the Propeller "New & Used" page. It's off of a Pitts S-2-B, so the spinner may be different. There is also a 3 blade Hartzell and a 3 blade counterweighted blade MT propeller on that page, also. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/05/2005 3:38:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kshannon(at)seanet.com writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" Hello Rocket group I am in need of a prop for my HRII project, anybody switch to a three blade and have a 2 blade Hartzell laying around they don't need? Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: Tanks
Date: Oct 05, 2005
Mark said that some of you used the wing tips for additional fuel. I would be interested in knowing the process and your opinion. Also anyone build a smoke oil tank into the wing? Thanks John 2nd RV6A F1 in the oven ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tanks
Date: Oct 06, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
John I built a smoke oil tank into the wing of my 8. Not a Rocket but the concept is the same. Take the wing walk area which already has some nice reinforcement and close it up. I took the wing walk +1 bay outboard. The hardest part was building the rectangular baffles between ribs for the fwd section to block off the aileron push tube area. I capped off the lightening holes. Used prosel on the rear spar. It was pretty easy to build as you already have the structure there. It really was not hard at all. I also made an access panel on both the inboard rib and on the outboard baffle plate so I could get in there. (which I just used last weekend as I had to pull the wing off to seal up a tank leak. I cant think of another rv with this mod. I might be the first. It would work just fine on the rocket. The only reason I picked the left wing on the 8 was that the right wing already had the NACA scoop built in which interfered with my tank needs so I put it in the left wing. All things being equal, Id pick the wing that is normally the light wing in flight. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Furey Subject: Rocket-List: Tanks Mark said that some of you used the wing tips for additional fuel. I would be interested in knowing the process and your opinion. Also anyone build a smoke oil tank into the wing? Thanks John 2nd RV6A F1 in the oven ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Milt" <rocket(at)swmrmc.org>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 06, 2005
RPD=4.00.0003; RPDID=303030312E30413039303230362E34333435324244332E303038352D412D; ENG=IBF; TS=20051006140444; CAT=NONE; CON=NONE; Fred, Like you when I first saw the Innodyn I got so excited at the thought of a turbine Rocket I almost wet my pants. Spent a lot of time looking in to it, talking to Innodyn, talking to the "firewall forward engineers", sent of for the manual, talked to Mark Frederick, scoured the internet, etc, etc. The following are some uneducated observations and repeats of 2nd and 3rd hand comments from sources whose expertise I do not know. Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the same engine and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money with them. They have been in development and "almost ready" for production for a LOT of years. They have an RV 4 and I believe a cub flying with the turbine. The RV 4 has been flying a lot of years yet they will not post actual climb, speed TO or fuel consumption data. They also did not bring either aircraft to S&F or Oshkosh. There is no way of sensing torque. As best I can tell you have to run the prop at 2700RPM. I have been told (source reliability uncertain) that they are having trouble getting fuel burn down to acceptable levels while not burning the engine up and still generating enough torque to fly the plane. I do not think they will be ready for prime time for another 5-10 years. I think DeltaHawk will have a light enough 300+HP diesel before the Innodyn is ready. And as someone mentioned those of us with 540s will be at 10'000' already doing 200KTS having burned the same in gallons a turbine will burn before it leaves the runway. Just my 2cents worth Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > Don't waste your time or your money..... Think I0-540 and be real happy. > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernest Hale" <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Copperstate > > <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com> > > > > Has anyone looked into the Innodyn turbine engine, the report I read > > said that it has been on an RV-4 since 2002. Sure would like to > > eventually tie about 500 hp to the front of my rocket. > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Wernerworld wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I've been debating Copperstate, the Red Bull Air Races in SFO or Both. > > > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2005
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
At 06:07 AM 10/6/05, Milt wrote: >Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the same engine >and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money with them. Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. >They have been in development and "almost ready" for production for a LOT >of years. > >They have an RV 4 and I believe a cub flying with the turbine. The RV 4 has >been flying a lot of years yet they will not post actual climb, speed TO or >fuel consumption data. And the total number of hours flown on the RV is very, very low. >I have been told (source reliability uncertain) that they are having trouble >getting fuel burn down to acceptable levels while not burning the engine up >and still generating enough torque to fly the plane. They have made wild fuel burn claims in the past. One sign I saw at Osh listed fuel burn and hp, it worked out to an SFC of .35. An Allison 250, by comparison, is running about .7 and a Lycoming around .45. The Solar APU they've based their design on does about 1.0 at idle, 1.3 at 90HP and close to 1.8 at 150HP. On their website they say they did a test on their pulsed fuel controller and got a "modest" increase in fuel specifics. >I do not think they will be ready for prime time for another 5-10 years. I >think DeltaHawk will have a light enough 300+HP diesel before the Innodyn is >ready. > >And as someone mentioned those of us with 540s will be at 10'000' already >doing 200KTS having burned the same in gallons a turbine will burn before it >leaves the runway. Agreed -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for prop
Date: Oct 06, 2005
There are two props for sale right now on aerotrader.com. Or at least I saw them yesterday when the tabloid sized magazine arrived at my house. They are in MN. You want the F series blades. Ron Carter. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Looking for prop > > Hello Rocket group > I am in need of a prop for my HRII project, anybody switch to a three > blade and have a 2 blade Hartzell laying around they don't need? > > Kevin Shannon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas > utterback > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > > > Whoops, I missed your request for location. I'm in Indianapolis west > side @ 2R2. Tom > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Looking for prop
Date: Oct 06, 2005
Thanks for the info Jim, the 2-blade on your website is a C hub, which I thought was too short for a Rocket, are some Rocket guys using a standard length hub with an extension? Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LesDrag(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Looking for prop Hi Kevin, There is a Hartzell 2 blade on my website _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) on the Propeller "New & Used" page. It's off of a Pitts S-2-B, so the spinner may be different. There is also a 3 blade Hartzell and a 3 blade counterweighted blade MT propeller on that page, also. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/05/2005 3:38:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kshannon(at)seanet.com writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" Hello Rocket group I am in need of a prop for my HRII project, anybody switch to a three blade and have a 2 blade Hartzell laying around they don't need? Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Looking for prop
I HAD A PROP BUILT UP FROM NEW AND USED PARTS,HEI PROPELLERS FT LAUDERDALE FL. IT IS A HC-M2YR-1BF/F8475D-4 IT HAS ASEVICABLE TAG, I WAS VERY HAPPY WITH THERE SERVICE, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: The origin of the word "Eish!!!"
Date: Oct 06, 2005
MessageIf you don't know what "Eish" (as in screech) means (SA word)... And you don't have a South African near to ask... Well, this picture kind of explains it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Fw: The origin of the word "Eish!!!"
Date: Oct 06, 2005
MessageSorry, folks, I forgot that matronics strips pictures off the email messages. You can view the picture here: http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Eish!!!.jpg thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Subject: The origin of the word "Eish!!!" If you don't know what "Eish" (as in screech) means (SA word)... And you don't have a South African near to ask... Well, this picture kind of explains it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James Freeman <flyeyes(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 06, 2005
On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Richard Riley wrote: > (snip) > >> Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the >> same engine >> and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money >> with them. >> > > Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised > refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. > > >> They have been in development and "almost ready" for production >> for a LOT >> of years. (more snip) > > Agreed > > Go ahead, laugh now, but we'll see who's laughing in a couple of years when I go whizzing past you guys at 350 KIAS in my Innodyn- powered Moller SkyCar.... :-P ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Sather" <sather(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 06, 2005
Hurry, At my age I don't even stand in the long line at the grocery store. bobby ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Freeman" <flyeyes(at)mac.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > > On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Richard Riley wrote: > >> (snip) >> >>> Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the >>> same engine >>> and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money >>> with them. >>> >> >> Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised >> refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. >> >> >>> They have been in development and "almost ready" for production >>> for a LOT >>> of years. > > (more snip) >> >> Agreed >> >> > > Go ahead, laugh now, but we'll see who's laughing in a couple of > years when I go whizzing past you guys at 350 KIAS in my Innodyn- > powered Moller SkyCar.... > > :-P > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2005
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
At 08:35 AM 10/6/05, you wrote: > >Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised >refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. I've inquired with the people that had deposits. Innodyn did make good on them. It doesn't change my mind about the fuel consumption, performance or lifespan of the engine. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2005
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: The origin of the word "Eish!!!"
Also this http://www.micom.net/oops/African%20preflight.jpg and this http://www.micom.net/oops/oops9.jpg and this http://www.micom.net/oops/short-landing.jpg ? At 05:05 PM 10/6/05, you wrote: > >MessageSorry, folks, I forgot that matronics strips pictures off the >email messages. You can view the picture here: > >http://www.teletuition.org/documents/Aviation/Eish!!!.jpg -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Looking for prop
Date: Oct 07, 2005
I do. Saber make all sorts of extensions. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Shannon Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Looking for prop Thanks for the info Jim, the 2-blade on your website is a C hub, which I thought was too short for a Rocket, are some Rocket guys using a standard length hub with an extension? Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LesDrag(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Looking for prop Hi Kevin, There is a Hartzell 2 blade on my website _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) on the Propeller "New & Used" page. It's off of a Pitts S-2-B, so the spinner may be different. There is also a 3 blade Hartzell and a 3 blade counterweighted blade MT propeller on that page, also. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/05/2005 3:38:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kshannon(at)seanet.com writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" Hello Rocket group I am in need of a prop for my HRII project, anybody switch to a three blade and have a 2 blade Hartzell laying around they don't need? Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 06, 2005
You are not dealing with reality.... Innodyn is a fraud and just thinking you could go that fast in a Moller, you crack me up.... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Freeman" <flyeyes(at)mac.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > > On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Richard Riley wrote: > > > (snip) > > > >> Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the > >> same engine > >> and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money > >> with them. > >> > > > > Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised > > refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. > > > > > >> They have been in development and "almost ready" for production > >> for a LOT > >> of years. > > (more snip) > > > > Agreed > > > > > > Go ahead, laugh now, but we'll see who's laughing in a couple of > years when I go whizzing past you guys at 350 KIAS in my Innodyn- > powered Moller SkyCar.... > > :-P > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2005
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Let me see now..................I will be going about 190 knots times 125 hours/year for those two years, and that will put me about twice around the world in my Rocket. You will have a very hard time catching me at 360 knots or whatever you dream about in your Moller..............not to mention, that I will have done it with far less fuel. I say again, "can you spell Lycoming!" There have always been do'er's and dreamers. As soon as you figure out which side of that fence you are on let's go race. Please do not archive...........we need the space for important information. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2005
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
James is teasing me. He has a flying RV-8, and understands about both Innodyn and Moller. I, on the other hand will beat you all with my nuclear powered stealth Zepplin! At 11:52 PM 10/6/05, you wrote: > >You are not dealing with reality.... Innodyn is a fraud and just thinking >you could go that fast in a Moller, you crack me up.... >Weav >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James Freeman" <flyeyes(at)mac.com> >To: >Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > > > > > > > On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Richard Riley wrote: > > > > > (snip) > > > > > >> Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the > > >> same engine > > >> and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money > > >> with them. > > >> > > > > > > Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised > > > refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. > > > > > > > > >> They have been in development and "almost ready" for production > > >> for a LOT > > >> of years. > > > > (more snip) > > > > > > Agreed > > > > > > > > > > Go ahead, laugh now, but we'll see who's laughing in a couple of > > years when I go whizzing past you guys at 350 KIAS in my Innodyn- > > powered Moller SkyCar.... > > > > :-P > > > > > > >-- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Innodyn
Date: Oct 07, 2005
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Weav, that would be sarcasm. The :-P is "tongue in cheek"... > --> > > You are not dealing with reality.... Innodyn is a fraud and > just thinking > you could go that fast in a Moller, you crack me up.... > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Freeman" <flyeyes(at)mac.com> > To: > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > > > > > > > On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Richard Riley wrote: > > > > > (snip) > > > > > >> Innodyn is a rebirth of another company that was developing the > > >> same engine > > >> and went financially TU taking a lot of investor(deposit) money > > >> with them. > > >> > > > > > > Run by the same people as before. About a year ago they promised > > > refunds to several Velocity owners, and AFAIK never came through. > > > > > > > > >> They have been in development and "almost ready" for production > > >> for a LOT > > >> of years. > > > > (more snip) > > > > > > Agreed > > > > > > > > > > Go ahead, laugh now, but we'll see who's laughing in a couple of > > years when I go whizzing past you guys at 350 KIAS in my Innodyn- > > powered Moller SkyCar.... > > > > :-P > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2005
From: Norman Younie <rv6capt(at)pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
At the higher prices of fuel today, maybe we should consider alternate fuels or power sources. How about a piston steam engine, unlimited horsepower or a steam turbine. We could get our names out to receive more junk mail and burn that for local flights. Stop in at any town and they would be happy to supply you with all the garbage needed for the next leg of your flight. Food for thought. Morocketman(at)aol.com wrote: > >Let me see now..................I will be going about 190 knots times 125 >hours/year for those two years, and that will put me about twice around the >world in my Rocket. You will have a very hard time catching me at 360 knots or >whatever you dream about in your Moller..............not to mention, that I >will have done it with far less fuel. I say again, "can you spell Lycoming!" >There have always been do'er's and dreamers. As soon as you figure out >which side of that fence you are on let's go race. Please do not >archive...........we need the space for important information. Les > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Looking for prop - Sabre Extentions
Date: Oct 07, 2005
From: "Condon, Philip M." <pcondon(at)mitre.org>
Don't forget the extension will need machined "Oh" rings on both ends because of the oil transfer to the prop oil dome. I talked with them a few years ago and they cautioned that any loads on the front end of the engines are carried thru this extension. Kinda iffy here for me. I dropped this as a option. To much "experimenting" for me......... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Innodyn
Date: Oct 07, 2005
Atta Way Les! Can hardly wait to share a sandwich.. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: <Morocketman(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Innodyn > > Let me see now..................I will be going about 190 knots times 125 > hours/year for those two years, and that will put me about twice around the > world in my Rocket. You will have a very hard time catching me at 360 knots or > whatever you dream about in your Moller..............not to mention, that I > will have done it with far less fuel. I say again, "can you spell Lycoming!" > There have always been do'er's and dreamers. As soon as you figure out > which side of that fence you are on let's go race. Please do not > archive...........we need the space for important information. Les > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Prop extensions
Date: Oct 12, 2005
Tony, So it looks like it takes an extra 2 5/8" on a C hub to equal an M hub, is your extension a solid spacer with longer bolts in the hub? Kevin Shannon I do. Saber make all sorts of extensions. Cheers Tony Thanks for the info Jim, the 2-blade on your website is a C hub, which I thought was too short for a Rocket, are some Rocket guys using a standard length hub with an extension? Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 12, 2005
Subject: John Harmon opens a Nascar store
NEW TO BAKERSFIELD John Harmon has opened a Nascar store in Bakersfield, CA. All product catalogs are being entered onto the website and will be available for purchase very soon. You can find all your favorite Nextel Cup and Busch Series drivers jackets, hats, die-casts and all other favorite racing gear at _www.RocketShopCafe.com_ (http://www.rocketshopcafe.com/) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Prop extensions
Date: Oct 13, 2005
G'day Shannon, I actually only used a 2.25 inch extension. After all you can put the cowl wherever you want. The extension bolts to the crank with bolts they supply. Then you use the normal prop bolts! This looks more solid than the extension that is cast into the M hub but it would also be a bit heavier with 6 extra bolts in there! Attached is the invoice from Saber, it has the details, cost etc. You should get it matched to exactly your setup (ie the number of longer lugs varies between engines and props but given the option to have it all match perfectly you may as well.) I've done 90 hours so far. I understand others have done this but I don't know who. The build quality of the extension looks first class. Hope that helps. Cheers, Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Shannon Subject: Rocket-List: Prop extensions Tony, So it looks like it takes an extra 2 5/8" on a C hub to equal an M hub, is your extension a solid spacer with longer bolts in the hub? Kevin Shannon I do. Saber make all sorts of extensions. Cheers Tony Thanks for the info Jim, the 2-blade on your website is a C hub, which I thought was too short for a Rocket, are some Rocket guys using a standard length hub with an extension? Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 13, 2005
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/12/05
WHY NOT JUST BUY THE RIGHT PROP. SAVE ANOTHER PLACE TO LEAK, AND WORST HAVE EXT. FAIL, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: extension
Date: Oct 13, 2005
MIKE, That is a good point... I purchased my overhauled short hub prop at a very good price. In Australia the long hub versions are virtually unavailable unless new. The saving at the time was over $8000. I did seek professional advice before making the d. If money was no object I would buy the longer hub prop. Actually I'd probably buy a composite three blader. For me at least, the choice was easy. The beauty of home builts! Wouldn't you agree? Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A1AVIATON(at)aol.com Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/12/05 WHY NOT JUST BUY THE RIGHT PROP. SAVE ANOTHER PLACE TO LEAK, AND WORST HAVE EXT. FAIL, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 13, 2005
Subject: Re: extension
IT WILL PROB. WORK OK. I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK I AM SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT YOUR PLANE, PERHAPS YOU COULD FIND A' M' HUB. AND HAVE IT SWAPED OVER. CAN YOU IMPORT OR HAVE ONE SHIPPED TO YOUR COUNTRY, I KNOW A PROP SHOP IN FLA. HP PROPELLERS, THEY MAY HAVE ONE. MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: RE: Prop extensions
Date: Oct 13, 2005
Yes, I agree these are good points to consider, I am closely examining all the available options before I make the choice. I have plenty of time before I actually need the prop in hand. I would have to think that the short hub and extension version is stronger than a cast extension "M" hub, if you consider the additional flanged sections. However, I have not seen a cross section of an "M" hub either, so I could be wrong about that. The extra place to leak oil aspect is a definite downer. Maybe my wife will buy me a branny new Hartzell with the right hub for my 50th birthday..HA! Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A1AVIATON(at)aol.com Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/12/05 WHY NOT JUST BUY THE RIGHT PROP. SAVE ANOTHER PLACE TO LEAK, AND WORST HAVE EXT. FAIL, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Prop extensions
Date: Oct 13, 2005
Take it from me, Kevin, not many things happen at one's 50th. Getting to go to sleep early is good too. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com> Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Prop extensions > > Yes, I agree these are good points to consider, I am closely examining > all the available options before I make the choice. I have plenty of > time before I actually need the prop in hand. I would have to think that > the short hub and extension version is stronger than a cast extension > "M" hub, if you consider the additional flanged sections. However, I > have not seen a cross section of an "M" hub either, so I could be wrong > about that. > The extra place to leak oil aspect is a definite downer. > Maybe my wife will buy me a branny new Hartzell with the right hub for > my 50th birthday..HA! > > Kevin Shannon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > A1AVIATON(at)aol.com > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/12/05 > > > WHY NOT JUST BUY THE RIGHT PROP. SAVE ANOTHER PLACE TO LEAK, AND WORST > HAVE > EXT. FAIL, MIKE > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 13, 2005
Subject: (no subject)
HRV540(at)aol.com Phone: 574-784-3216 Calltime: Any time Name: Dennis Hackbarth Question: I have a very nice Harmon Rocket 2 For sale and need suggestions as to best way to promote sale with potential buyers. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WiningsJ(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 14, 2005
Subject: Prop Extension
I had a machine shop make me an extension for my RV-4 (old cowling). I used it for about 200 hrs. I then gave it to a friend to use on his HRII. I think he has about 700 hrs. on his Rocket now. I did light aerobatics with my RV-4. The extension has never caused any problems. I have seen the Sabre extension and it really looks good. I would have no problem using it. I am using an MT on my Rocket. Jim Winings #34 108 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 14, 2005
Subject: Re: Prop Extension
IT ONLY HAS TO FAIL ONCE, WHAT IS THE HEAT TREAT OF THE METAL, WHAT TYPE OF METAL IS IT, WAS IT TESTED, DO ANY OF THE FACTORY ENGINES USE ONE, YOU ARE A BRAVE MAN, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Prop Extension
Date: Oct 14, 2005
Yeah, I totally understand your point. I'm only sharing information and what I did because Kevin asked. I'm not really offering any advice as such. For what it's worth, the company that made my extension specializes in extensions. I understand they have 15 years (or was it 25?) making them. It comes with specialized lot traceable bolts etc etc. (After all, extensions are common in light aircraft.) With 90 hours on mine so far I can tell you there are other things that concern me more than that extension. One of the things I'd consider if doing it again, would be to use a smaller extension. It would shorten the nose a bit (which would not be without its own problems) but would remove the "suggested G limit" that most people apply to the M hub. (Another "oh and by the way", Saber told me there is no need for any G restrictions when using this particular extension - but like an M hub I avoid more than 4 G for crank journal load consids.) Good luck Kevin. Cheers, Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A1AVIATON(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Prop Extension IT ONLY HAS TO FAIL ONCE, WHAT IS THE HEAT TREAT OF THE METAL, WHAT TYPE OF METAL IS IT, WAS IT TESTED, DO ANY OF THE FACTORY ENGINES USE ONE, YOU ARE A BRAVE MAN, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: extension
Date: Oct 14, 2005
Thanks for the suggestion. Done about 90 hours on it now, so it would be a complicated trade/swap. It's all cool, I'm not taking any offence. The list is for bouncing around ideas after all. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A1AVIATON(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: extension IT WILL PROB. WORK OK. I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK I AM SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT YOUR PLANE, PERHAPS YOU COULD FIND A' M' HUB. AND HAVE IT SWAPED OVER. CAN YOU IMPORT OR HAVE ONE SHIPPED TO YOUR COUNTRY, I KNOW A PROP SHOP IN FLA. HP PROPELLERS, THEY MAY HAVE ONE. MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: balancing CHT's
Date: Oct 14, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
What a bizarre idea. Thanks Archiving _____ From: Bob J [mailto:rocketbob(at)gmail.com] Subject: Re: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's Mike, take some washers and space the back baffle away from the rear cylinders to expose a 1/8" or so gap between the baffle and the rear cylinders. Two local rocket guys did this and it fixed the hot cylinder problem; Tom Martin up in Canada has also done this and was successful with it. This works on the front cylinders too. We also took a leaf blower and felt around the baffles to find gaps, and sealed up the cooler a little better. We weren't expecting much from that but were surprised to see that the oil temperature dropped 8 degrees. Every little bit can make a difference. Regards, Bob On 10/14/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: I have been trying to get my middle cylinders to warm up and the rears to cool down. #6 is 365 (oil cooler mounted behind it), #4 is 328. I have been trying to stick some 'speed tape' (thick aluminum tape) around the #4 cylinder but I am not making any real progress. Clearly this is a little more complicate to fix than I originally thought. What is the best procedure to prevent cooling of one cylinder to help the others? Rtv between the fins? Top of the cylinder head as opposed to the base? Some other idea? I now have the fuel flow matched to .1gph and now ready to get the temps in line. Help appreciated Thanks Mike S8 Flow match details here: http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/super8/nozzles/index.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: balancing CHT's
Date: Oct 14, 2005
The spacers may work to cool #2 and #5. Also if have a little dam in front of #1 you could try to lower it a bit as well. Check the other cylinders to see if the fins that extend up and down between the spark plugs are clean of casting flashing. There were quite a few cylinders that got shipped with these fins completely blocked. There is only so much air that gets into the baffles. If you can cool the other cylinders this may raise #3 and #4. They have also been my coolest cylinders on my rockets. You could also try to close the gap a bit at the bottom of these cylinders but I have had limited success with this. The problem is that these cylinders get lots of air on the front and back of them. All the other cylinders have baffles pressing against their front or back. Tom Martin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: RE: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's What a bizarre idea. Thanks Archiving _____ From: Bob J [mailto:rocketbob(at)gmail.com] Subject: Re: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's Mike, take some washers and space the back baffle away from the rear cylinders to expose a 1/8" or so gap between the baffle and the rear cylinders. Two local rocket guys did this and it fixed the hot cylinder problem; Tom Martin up in Canada has also done this and was successful with it. This works on the front cylinders too. We also took a leaf blower and felt around the baffles to find gaps, and sealed up the cooler a little better. We weren't expecting much from that but were surprised to see that the oil temperature dropped 8 degrees. Every little bit can make a difference. Regards, Bob On 10/14/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: I have been trying to get my middle cylinders to warm up and the rears to cool down. #6 is 365 (oil cooler mounted behind it), #4 is 328. I have been trying to stick some 'speed tape' (thick aluminum tape) around the #4 cylinder but I am not making any real progress. Clearly this is a little more complicate to fix than I originally thought. What is the best procedure to prevent cooling of one cylinder to help the others? Rtv between the fins? Top of the cylinder head as opposed to the base? Some other idea? I now have the fuel flow matched to .1gph and now ready to get the temps in line. Help appreciated Thanks Mike S8 Flow match details here: http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/super8/nozzles/index.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ernest Hale <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com>
Subject: Re: balancing CHT's
Date: Oct 14, 2005
What is the drill if your rear cylinders are running hot? On Oct 14, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > > What a bizarre idea. > > Thanks > > Archiving > > > _____ > > From: Bob J [mailto:rocketbob(at)gmail.com] > To: Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's > > > Mike, take some washers and space the back baffle away from the rear > cylinders to expose a 1/8" or so gap between the baffle and the rear > cylinders. Two local rocket guys did this and it fixed the hot > cylinder > problem; Tom Martin up in Canada has also done this and was successful > with it. This works on the front cylinders too. We also took a leaf > blower and felt around the baffles to find gaps, and sealed up the > cooler a little better. We weren't expecting much from that but were > surprised to see that the oil temperature dropped 8 degrees. Every > little bit can make a difference. > > Regards, > Bob > > On 10/14/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > > > I have been trying to get my middle cylinders to warm up and the rears > to cool down. #6 is 365 (oil cooler mounted behind it), #4 is 328. I > have been trying to stick some 'speed tape' (thick aluminum tape) > around > the #4 cylinder but I am not making any real progress. Clearly this > is a > > little more complicate to fix than I originally thought. What is the > best procedure to prevent cooling of one cylinder to help the others? > Rtv between the fins? Top of the cylinder head as opposed to the base? > Some other idea? I now have the fuel flow matched to .1gph and now > ready > to get the temps in line. > > Help appreciated > > Thanks > > Mike > > S8 > > > Flow match details here: > > http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/super8/nozzles/index.htm > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Fw: Fw: Computer Technology for Country Folk]
Date: Oct 15, 2005
Message ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: cylinder cooling tips
Date: Oct 17, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Michael, Do what Bob and Tom say to do and you will get even temps. I did and my cylinders are all within 15 degrees CHT. Pictures of the cylinder flashing and how to remove it are on: http://vincesrocket.com/Engine%20and%20Prop.htm Take a look at the forward face of the #2 cylinder or the rear face of the #5. They are the same for this discussion. You can see that if you butt the baffle right up to the cylinder face that you will block airflow to the top of the cylinder. Putting a few washers in between the baffle and the cylinder will positively cure your high temps on those cylinders. Too easy... and it works. Do the other stuff that they recommend also... it'll help too. Vince (my CHTs might just be too cold now! Doh!) SNIP From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's The spacers may work to cool #2 and #5. Also if have a little dam in front of #1 you could try to lower it a bit as well. Check the other cylinders to see if the fins that extend up and down between the spark plugs are clean of casting flashing. There were quite a few cylinders that got shipped with these fins completely blocked. There is only so much air that gets into the baffles. If you can cool the other cylinders this may raise #3 and #4. They have also been my coolest cylinders on my rockets. You could also try to close the gap a bit at the bottom of these cylinders but I have had limited success with this. The problem is that these cylinders get lots of air on the front and back of them. All the other cylinders have baffles pressing against their front or back. Tom Martin What a bizarre idea. Thanks From: Bob J [mailto:rocketbob(at)gmail.com] Subject: Re: Rocket-List: balancing CHT's Mike, take some washers and space the back baffle away from the rear cylinders to expose a 1/8" or so gap between the baffle and the rear cylinders. Two local rocket guys did this and it fixed the hot cylinder problem; Tom Martin up in Canada has also done this and was successful with it. This works on the front cylinders too. We also took a leaf blower and felt around the baffles to find gaps, and sealed up the cooler a little better. We weren't expecting much from that but were surprised to see that the oil temperature dropped 8 degrees. Every little bit can make a difference. Regards, Bob SNIP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2005
Subject: Re: 2 blade to 3 blade
Hi Michael, I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller and my 3 blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, then the "J" blade Hartzell. The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration incorrectly associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have a second order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a very noticeable difference.) There was no significant difference in cruise performance. The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 pounds. The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 pounds. Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable difference in cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate than to get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. Best Regards, Jim Ayers _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) (805) 795-5377 In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mstewart(at)iss.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have had 2 independent prop balances. I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world results please. All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a 18lb battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except ballast. That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to jettison. I want smooth and speed. Please help. Thanks Mike S8 Do not archive. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2 blade to 3 blade
Date: Oct 17, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
If I were convinced that the 3 blade would keep me cruising at 200ktas AND be smooth like an electric motor I'd do it. I would loose my big smile during cruise if my TAS indicator did not start with a 2. Thanks for the data. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LesDrag(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade Hi Michael, I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller and my 3 blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, then the "J" blade Hartzell. The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration incorrectly associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have a second order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a very noticeable difference.) There was no significant difference in cruise performance. The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 pounds. The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 pounds. Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable difference in cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate than to get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. Best Regards, Jim Ayers _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) (805) 795-5377 In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mstewart(at)iss.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have had 2 independent prop balances. I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world results please. All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a 18lb battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except ballast. That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to jettison. I want smooth and speed. Please help. Thanks Mike S8 Do not archive. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Milt" <rocket(at)swmrmc.org>
Subject: Re: 2 blade to 3 blade
Date: Oct 17, 2005
RPD=4.00.0003; RPDID=303030312E30413039303230362E34333533463137342E303031462D412D; ENG=IBF; TS=20051017190018; CAT=NONE; CON=NONE; You don't get somethin for nothin. Had the 2 blade hartzell and the vibration/propwash was shaking parts off the plane. Hated it so bad I was tempted to sell it. Put the 3 blade MT on and smooth as silk. Lost 3-5kts in cruise. Lost a little in climb and TO performance, still bvlow the doors off anything else around although now I will occassionally see TASs of 198-199 (250HP) The 3 blade MT weighs exactly what the 2 blade Hartzell weighs. Make the change cause you ain't gonna make the shakes go away with balancing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > If I were convinced that the 3 blade would keep me cruising at 200ktas > AND be smooth like an electric motor I'd do it. > > I would loose my big smile during cruise if my TAS indicator did not > start with a 2. > > Thanks for the data. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > LesDrag(at)aol.com > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > Hi Michael, > > I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade > Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller > and my 3 > blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. > > We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, > then > the "J" blade Hartzell. > > The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an > electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration > incorrectly > associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have > a second > order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a > very > noticeable difference.) > > There was no significant difference in cruise performance. > > The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 > pounds. > The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 > pounds. > Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. > > You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the > baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable > difference in > cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate > than to > get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. > > Best Regards, > Jim Ayers > _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) > (805) 795-5377 > > In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mstewart(at)iss.net writes: > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 > blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. > > My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration > which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have > had 2 independent prop balances. > > I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is > GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world > results please. > > All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing > some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a > 18lb > battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except > ballast. > > That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to > jettison. > > I want smooth and speed. Please help. > > Thanks > Mike > S8 > Do not archive. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: 2 blade to 3 blade
Date: Oct 17, 2005
Mike, I made the change and can't tell any difference in top end. I have a unique 75" MT. Most are 78". I cruise at 2100 all the time, and if I need it I can get 5 more MPH IAS by moving it up to 2300. The prop gets rid of about 85% of the vibration you feel with the 2 blade Hartzell. I immediately noticed a huge difference in feel. I sense that much of that is coming through the floor. If I flat foot my feet on the floor and press hard it changes the noise and vibration level. I'd have to say you won't be disappointed. Russ Werner HRII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > > If I were convinced that the 3 blade would keep me cruising at 200ktas > AND be smooth like an electric motor I'd do it. > > I would loose my big smile during cruise if my TAS indicator did not > start with a 2. > > Thanks for the data. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > LesDrag(at)aol.com > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > Hi Michael, > > I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade > Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller > and my 3 > blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. > > We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, > then > the "J" blade Hartzell. > > The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an > electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration > incorrectly > associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have > a second > order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a > very > noticeable difference.) > > There was no significant difference in cruise performance. > > The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 > pounds. > The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 > pounds. > Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. > > You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the > baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable > difference in > cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate > than to > get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. > > Best Regards, > Jim Ayers > _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) > (805) 795-5377 > > In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mstewart(at)iss.net writes: > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 > blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. > > My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration > which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have > had 2 independent prop balances. > > I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is > GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world > results please. > > All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing > some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a > 18lb > battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except > ballast. > > That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to > jettison. > > I want smooth and speed. Please help. > > Thanks > Mike > S8 > Do not archive. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: hot cylinder cure
Date: Oct 17, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 Some cylinders run hot simply because the baffles are too tight in the wrong areas. Specifically the front face of the #2 and the rear face of the #5 cylinder (540 Lycs) or #3 (4 cylinder Lycs) don't get enough airflow past the baffles. It's easy to fix with a few washers. This has been discussed before... but now there's a photo and some text to make it easier to understand. http://vincesrocket.com/Engine%20and%20Prop.htm Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: 2 blade to 3 blade
Date: Oct 18, 2005
Was wondering what RPM you guys don't like the vibration at. I find on mine that from 2300 and above its smooth with the 2 blader. So I generally use that RPM. Comments? Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Milt Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade You don't get somethin for nothin. Had the 2 blade hartzell and the vibration/propwash was shaking parts off the plane. Hated it so bad I was tempted to sell it. Put the 3 blade MT on and smooth as silk. Lost 3-5kts in cruise. Lost a little in climb and TO performance, still bvlow the doors off anything else around although now I will occassionally see TASs of 198-199 (250HP) The 3 blade MT weighs exactly what the 2 blade Hartzell weighs. Make the change cause you ain't gonna make the shakes go away with balancing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > If I were convinced that the 3 blade would keep me cruising at 200ktas > AND be smooth like an electric motor I'd do it. > > I would loose my big smile during cruise if my TAS indicator did not > start with a 2. > > Thanks for the data. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > LesDrag(at)aol.com > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade > > > Hi Michael, > > I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade > Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller > and my 3 > blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. > > We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, > then > the "J" blade Hartzell. > > The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an > electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration > incorrectly > associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have > a second > order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a > very > noticeable difference.) > > There was no significant difference in cruise performance. > > The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 > pounds. > The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 > pounds. > Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. > > You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the > baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable > difference in > cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate > than to > get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. > > Best Regards, > Jim Ayers > _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) > (805) 795-5377 > > In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mstewart(at)iss.net writes: > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 > blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. > > My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration > which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have > had 2 independent prop balances. > > I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is > GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world > results please. > > All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing > some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a > 18lb > battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except > ballast. > > That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to > jettison. > > I want smooth and speed. Please help. > > Thanks > Mike > S8 > Do not archive. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 18, 2005
Subject: Re: 2 blade to 3 blade
Just a side comment. The four blade MT propeller on HR2 N561FS was designed for a 380 hp parallel valve IO-540 engine. And 380 hp is not a typo. Their 4 blade propeller is a different 4 blade propeller design than the one I advertise on my website for a Rocket with the Lyc. IO-360 260 hp engine. Best Regards, Jim Ayers _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) In a message dated 10/18/2005 1:36:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jhstarn(at)verizon.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" "Was wondering what RPM you guys don't like the vibration at." All of them, from start up to shut down. Comes from sitting behind an MT three or four blade........ When compared with the Hartzel 2 blade. "Smoother" above 2300 I would believe. Smoooooooth, ya'll need to come take a ride with us. "It aint bragging iffen ya can do it". One ride will do that. Maybe just the trip up the taxiway. Slower ? ? yea a bit but everything in life is a trade off of some kind. N561FS HRII IO540 J5A4 MT four blade (old style). KABONG Do Not Archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2005
From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Looking for someplace to go on Sat. Oct. 29th.....
"rocket-list" , INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0036 1.0000 -4.4384;INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0036 1.0000 -4.4384 Apple Valley Airport (APV) will be holding an Open House on Saturday Oct 29th from 9am-3pm. There will be aircraft & cars on display. Just like last year there will be a free breakfast for those flying in and/or displaying and "People Choice" trophies will be awarded. Fly Bys and formation approach to landing are encouraged but are at pilots discretion. There will NOT be an AirBoss for flights but where will be ground parking control at the normal APV Unicom 122.8. KABONG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2005
From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RV-List: Looking for someplace to go on Sat. Oct. 29th.....
"rocket-list" , "INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0036 1.0000 -4.4384" , "IMB Recipient 1" --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Apple Valley Airport (APV) will be holding an Open House on Saturday Oct 29th from 9am-3pm. There will be aircraft & cars on display. Just like last year there will be a free breakfast for those flying in and/or displaying and "People Choice" trophies will be awarded. Fly Bys and formation approach to landing are encouraged but are at pilots discretion. There will NOT be an AirBoss for flights but where will be ground parking control at the normal APV Unicom 122.8. KABONG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: 2 blade to 3 blade
Date: Oct 20, 2005
I made the switch from the Hartzell 2 blade to a MT 3 blade and the change in vibration characteristics is dramatic. The MT runs like an electric motor in comparison. My WFO and 2100 RPM Cruise speeds at 10K are down about 2-3 knots, a fair trade for much more comfort. This was a bolt off, bolt on modification that made a great airplane even better; and my true airspeed cruise still starts with a 2. Greg Nelson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade If I were convinced that the 3 blade would keep me cruising at 200ktas AND be smooth like an electric motor I'd do it. I would loose my big smile during cruise if my TAS indicator did not start with a 2. Thanks for the data. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LesDrag(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade to 3 blade Hi Michael, I did some performance tests on Ted Rutherford's HR2 using his 2 blade Hartzell (D blade) propeller, my 2 blade Hartzell (J blade) propeller and my 3 blade MTV-9-B/198-52 MT Propeller. We ran Ted's "D" blade Hartzell first, then the 3 blade MT propeller, then the "J" blade Hartzell. The 3 blade propeller had the Lycoming engine running like it was an electric motor. Both 2 blade propellers had the typical vibration incorrectly associated to the Lycoming engine. (The 3 blade propeller doesn't have a second order harmonic that is present with the 2 blade propeller. This is a very noticeable difference.) There was no significant difference in cruise performance. The Hartzell 2 blade propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 66 pounds. The MTV-9-B/198-52 propeller and spinner assembly weighs about 54 pounds. Not the 18 pounds you wanted, but 12 pounds lighter isn't bad. You could replace the aft battery with a portable oxygen bottle in the baggage compartment. The 3 blade propeller should make a noticeable difference in cruise speed above 10,000'. What better use for the HR2 climb rate than to get to 15,000' to 17,500', and then cruise fast with good fuel economy. Best Regards, Jim Ayers _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) (805) 795-5377 In a message dated 10/17/2005 7:19:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mstewart(at)iss.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Looking for real world results on folks who have gone from the fat 2 blade Hartzel to the 3 blade blended or MT. My speed is good but my comfort is not. Got a pretty good vibration which I suspect is the fat 2 blade hartzell beating my airframe. I have had 2 independent prop balances. I am tempted of spend the $$$ on a smoother operation but my speed is GREAT and I don't want to loose any. You know the drill. Real world results please. All things being equal, which they never are, would not mind loosing some nose weight. If I could pull 20lbs off the nose I could pull a 18lb battery out of my tail which is not doing anything for me except ballast. That would net me 38lbs off the airframe which I would love to jettison. I want smooth and speed. Please help. Thanks Mike S8 Do not archive. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 20, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 20, 2005
I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 20, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Oh great, probably another $400 waist of my time. Thanks for the great news Tom. Mike :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 20, 2005
It will be interesting to see if you notice a difference and it would really be nice if Hartzell would lend you one of their test machines so that you could quantify the difference. Since a lot of guys are going to different suppliers than Hartzell they just might be interested in saving this small but growing market. Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Oh great, probably another $400 waist of my time. Thanks for the great news Tom. Mike :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 20, 2005
Subject: Re: Speeds Again
WHO CARES WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE , FLY IT AND HAVE FUN, GET A JOB WITH BOEING IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT NUMBERS, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 20, 2005
Subject: Re: Props and vibration
I THINK JOHN H. RECOMENDS J-9613-12 MOUNTS, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 20, 2005
Subject: Re: Props and vibration
WHAT IS THE NUMBER OF THE MOUNT THAT YOU USED, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 20, 2005
From: Bob J <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Props and vibration
Hi Mike, I hope that works out for you. Let us know. I hung my engine with the aerobatic mounts Van's sells, but don't have the Barry numbers handy, and don't know yet how well they'll work. FWIW I have the liquid-filled Lord mounts on my RV-6, and its very smooth. They came off a PA-28-201 (t-tailed arrow) with very low time after a prop strike (read: free). So an appropriate mount for the 540 with better dampening characteristics might be 80-90% as good as going the sledge hammer route with an MT (which we all know is very smooth, but costly.) Out of curiosity, are the J-3804-20's used on the RV-10? An interesting tidbit I got a while back from Les at Hartzell was that a few years ago before his time there they did a vibration survey on a Cessna and found that bolting the engine solid to the mount with phenolic isolators eliminated the vibration that they were trying to get rid of, but for obvious reasons that wasn't a permanent fix. So along this line of thought was why I went with the aerobatic isolators. It may work, it may be rough. Who knows. EXPERIMENTAL <-- 2" high letters. Regards, Bob Japundza F1 #80 On 10/20/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > mstewart(at)iss.net> > > Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up > with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have > the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine > mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are > not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally > designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for > the hanging moment of a 540. > So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me > from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord > J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the > results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced > that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in > such things. > > Best > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 20, 2005
From: f1rocket(at)telus.net
Subject: MT vs rain
OK so maybe I'm biased as I have laid my money out and have a three blade MT hanging on the front of my ship but... We (our company) has been operating a DO 328 with two six blade MTs on it. All types of IFR conditions, and sand erosion (desert) conditions, and the blades are holding up far better than on our King Air 350 (erosion being the main difference). I think after seeing what our props have gone though in the last 1000 hours, it is a good indication that I should have no problem on my Rocket. OK yes our props cost more than most of us have into the Rockets, but never the less, the basic construction is the same for the MT props. No the MT doesn't look new after 1000 hours, but not many props do. Regards, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Hartzell Props vs ?????????????
HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Hartzell Props vs ?????????????
I WILL KEEP MY AMERICAN HARTZELL, MADE IN AMERICA, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR JUNK. MIKE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Props and vibration
SUPPORT THE ENGINE, CHANGE ONE AT A TIME, SOMEWERE IN VANS NEWS LETTER'S IT TOLD YOU HOW TO CHANGE THEM, I WOULD WONDER WHAT THE DIFF. IS FROM THE J9613-12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2005
From: Mark Frederick <f1boss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05
Hey Mike: I have a copy of that video -- scary indeed. The blade was intact after getting hit with a softball sized ice ball on its leading edge: and airplane that sustained such a hit would have kept flyinig. An amazing amount of flexing went on -- I would not have believed it could be possible had I not seen it! Gerd Muhlbauer owns MT propeller. My dealings with him and his company have been top notch. In all fairness, the Hartzell boys are good to work with too. I talked with a Hartzell rep at Reno, and he wanted one of the Rocket boys to volunteer to test a new hub with different indexing of the blades -- I'll bet this offer is still open to any individual who wants to participate. My experience with the 2 blade Hartzells shows that a somewhat thinner chord blade does not shake like the wide chord units do. I have no data on speed regardinig this or that blade. Carry on! Mark > > > ________________________________ Message 14 > ____________________________________ > > > From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? > > > HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 17, 2005
Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 21, 2005
The three blade Hartzell and the three blade MT are both very smooth. I forget the price difference but I think they are close. The metal Hartzell has more flywheel effect due to the extra weight. It is at least 22lbs heavier than the MT and in a place where we already are a bit nose heavy. The three blade Hartzell will work on a F1 due to the main wheel placement but it would not have fit on my HRII as the tail wheel weight would have gotten too light for operation from my grass strip. How could any one not like the fact that we have more choices now than we did five years ago? The competition from foreign junk has apparently gotten the attention of Hartzell. Perhaps they will now fix their superior product. Tom Martin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of blairclan Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2005
Subject: Re: MT vs rain
Hi Jeff, Just for basic information, the Stainless Steel leading edge sheath on the MT propellers is 3 times more resistant to rain and sand erosion than aluminum. Which you have had an opportunity to observe. When the MT propeller blades are overhauled, they will be returned looking like new blades. And there is no life limit on MT propeller blades. I understand that Hartzell blades can be overhauled a maximum of three times. So, for those that are buying the used Hartzell propellers at a very good price, be careful of what your are buying. The MT propeller blade can loose up to 15% off of the tip, and still be repaired to the original length. However, all repair to the wood core of the blades has to be accomplished at the factory, since they are the only certified repair facility. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/20/2005 10:12:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, f1rocket(at)telus.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket(at)telus.net OK so maybe I'm biased as I have laid my money out and have a three blade MT hanging on the front of my ship but... We (our company) has been operating a DO 328 with two six blade MTs on it. All types of IFR conditions, and sand erosion (desert) conditions, and the blades are holding up far better than on our King Air 350 (erosion being the main difference). I think after seeing what our props have gone though in the last 1000 hours, it is a good indication that I should have no problem on my Rocket. OK yes our props cost more than most of us have into the Rockets, but never the less, the basic construction is the same for the MT props. No the MT doesn't look new after 1000 hours, but not many props do. Regards, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05
Date: Oct 21, 2005
Any chance we can get access to the video too? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Frederick" <f1boss(at)gmail.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 > > Hey Mike: > > I have a copy of that video -- scary indeed. The blade was intact after > getting hit with a softball sized ice ball on its leading edge: and airplane > that sustained such a hit would have kept flyinig. An amazing amount of > flexing went on -- I would not have believed it could be possible had I not > seen it! > > Gerd Muhlbauer owns MT propeller. My dealings with him and his company have > been top notch. In all fairness, the Hartzell boys are good to work with > too. > > I talked with a Hartzell rep at Reno, and he wanted one of the Rocket boys > to volunteer to test a new hub with different indexing of the blades -- I'll > bet this offer is still open to any individual who wants to participate. > > My experience with the 2 blade Hartzells shows that a somewhat thinner chord > blade does not shake like the wide chord units do. I have no data on speed > regardinig this or that blade. > > Carry on! > Mark > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > From: A1AVIATON(at)aol.com > > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? > > > > > > HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2005
From: f1rocket(at)telus.net
Subject: Inverted and tire pressures
Just making up placards and POH. Tire pressure - 35 psi. It that working well for everyone? Inverted tank - LEFT is that correct? I'm sure I read it somewhere, but after re-reading the manual it doesn't jump out at me. Thanks everyone. Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Date: Oct 24, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Bad news gentleman, The Lord J-3804-20 isolators, used by Vans on the RV-10 IO-540, are not even close to the same as the original set I had from Vans. I pulled a set off and roughly an inch of uncompressed difference. Also the center shafts were ~5/8" difference. Fine if your building, but on a flying airplane this would completely destroy the cowl fit. So I am now back to square one unless I can get some help from lord directly on what my options are for changing out the mounts, have hope of gaining on the vibration issue, AND have an engine that hangs in the same place. Les I hope to hear from you on plan B Best, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Milt" <rocket(at)swmrmc.org>
Subject: Re: Props and vibration
Date: Oct 24, 2005
RPD=4.00.0003; RPDID=303030312E30413039303230322E34333543453338442E303034352D412D; ENG=IBF; TS=20051024134458; CAT=NONE; CON=NONE; I talked to a guy in Indianopolis who built an RV 8 with an IO 540. He tells me all of the "Super 8" builders apparently are chopping off 2" from the end of each blade and this apparently eliminates the vibration/beat or whatever you want to call it. I like my MT 3 blade but miss the performance and handling characteristics I had with the 2 blade. Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration > > Tom, > > Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 > blader? > > Thanks > Tony Blair > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration > > > I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard > isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and > a > three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other > builders > report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first > HRII > and they work for me. > > Tom Martin > EVO ONE on the way > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, > Michael (ISS Atlanta) > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration > > > > Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up > with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have > the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine > mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are > not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally > designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for > the hanging moment of a 540. > So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me > from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord > J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the > results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced > that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in > such things. > > Best > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Date: Oct 24, 2005
From what I have been reading the last two weeks, the fat two blade prop causes a more turbulent propwash than the three bladers do, which is transmitted through the airframe and perceived as a vibration. So, if this is the case and it is not a balancing issue, I don't see how different the isolation mounts can change this. It will be interesting to see what your results are Mike. Kevin Bad news gentleman, The Lord J-3804-20 isolators, used by Vans on the RV-10 IO-540, are not even close to the same as the original set I had from Vans. I pulled a set off and roughly an inch of uncompressed difference. Also the center shafts were ~5/8" difference. Fine if your building, but on a flying airplane this would completely destroy the cowl fit. So I am now back to square one unless I can get some help from lord directly on what my options are for changing out the mounts, have hope of gaining on the vibration issue, AND have an engine that hangs in the same place. Les I hope to hear from you on plan B Best, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2005
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
If you can't get help directly from Lord, talk to Barry. Tell them what you have in a Lord mount, and what you want different. Barry Controls California 4510 Vanowen St Burbank, CA 91505 Tel: 1-818-8431000 Fax: 1-818-8456978 At 08:23 AM 10/24/05, you wrote: > > >From what I have been reading the last two weeks, the fat two blade prop >causes a more turbulent propwash than the three bladers do, which is >transmitted through the airframe and perceived as a vibration. >So, if this is the case and it is not a balancing issue, I don't see how >different the isolation mounts can change this. It will be interesting >to see what your results are Mike. >Kevin > > >Bad news gentleman, > >The Lord J-3804-20 isolators, used by Vans on the RV-10 IO-540, are not >even close to the same as the original set I had from Vans. > >I pulled a set off and roughly an inch of uncompressed difference. Also >the center shafts were ~5/8" difference. > >Fine if your building, but on a flying airplane this would completely >destroy the cowl fit. So I am now back to square one unless I can get >some help from lord directly on what my options are for changing out the >mounts, have hope of gaining on the vibration issue, AND have an engine >that hangs in the same place. > > >Les I hope to hear from you on plan B > > >Best, > >Mike > > >-- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2005
From: Russ <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
The RV10 engine has completely different mount ears on the engine. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 24, 2005
Subject: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2005
From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2 <mneufeld(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Thanks John, All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my compooter. Mark Neufeld From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005 Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad as to almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that going to a 3 blade fixed it in every case. I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes. Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2 To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators Thanks John, All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my compooter. Mark Neufeld From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005 To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 25, 2005
Subject: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Hi Mike, I understand from talking with John Harmon that the Lord mounts work better than the Barry mounts. I hope you can work out a good solution with Barry. The 2 blade propeller has a 2nd order harmonic that isn't present with a 3 blade propeller. That is the vibration you are trying to isolate. A 3 blade propeller has a 3rd order harmonic that isn't present with a 4 blade propeller. I'm planning to use the MT 4 blade Rocket propeller on my Harmon Rocket 2. I also have the Lord mounts. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/25/2005 5:53:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mstewart(at)iss.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Getting Silly? I actually think this is an excellent discussion. Great feedback from those that have been there. No one so far has said that they had the shakes and changed isolator mounts. I am hoping to provide some data here once I work it out with Hartzell and Lord or Barry. Many thanks for all the posts on AND off list. Keep em coming. Best, Mike Do not archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Date: Oct 25, 2005
One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, or is it from a prop shop? Kevin Shannon I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Date: Oct 25, 2005
Yeah, and I didn't know about all these problems. It was an education, silly or not. Thanks, guys. ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators > > The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad as to almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that going to a 3 blade fixed it in every case. > > I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes. > > Milt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2 > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM > Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators > > > > Thanks John, > > All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my compooter. > > Mark Neufeld > > > From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com > Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005 > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators > > > I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the > bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other > props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be > smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me > John > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: tools
Date: Oct 25, 2005
A builders dream collection. Highest quality MAC tools and box. Every tool imaginable in a tool box 7' tall by 10' long, approx 2 ton. Shipping available. Everything you could ever need for working on anything automotive or aircraft related. Appraised at over $70,000 replacement value yours for only $15,000. A friend retired after 40 years as a professional mechanic and I am selling them. Contact me off list at john(at)fureychrysler.com for details and pictures. John Furey 2nd RV6A F1 under construction ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
Date: Oct 25, 2005
Brand spanking new from Hartzell. Greg Nelson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Shannon Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, or is it from a prop shop? Kevin Shannon I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of other props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase be smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: hartzell 2 blade vibes
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, or is it from a prop shop? Kevin Shannon SNIP Brand new from Hartzell, Barry mounts from TeamRocket, Indy mount from TeamRocket. Everything else was a mixture of Vans, Harmon, and F-1 parts. No objectionable vibes to me. Getting the prop dynamically balanced did improve what mild vibration I did have. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sum up the vibration issue for me
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am. I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul. My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2" Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance. Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight. I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number VIP50011-20, MFG 15332. I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's. I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have, prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider it unsafe. Just another data point. Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail) told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH! Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff. Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the small vibration I have. Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order and should get installed in the next couple of days. Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists messages. Good stuff. Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy for working this. Best, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: John Huft <rv8(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: Re: hartzell 2 blade vibes
version=3.0.3 Guys, I am not sure this applies, but In the C180/185 world, many guys with the older birds have gone to new 3 blade props (about 90 lbs, they are 88" dia.), and had shaking problems. The universal fix has been to go to the heavier seaplane engine mount, which turns them into turbines. It has a couple of extra cross braces that the stock mount doesn't have (for rough water ops). John Harmon and Mark Frederick...is it possible a stiffer engine mount might help this problem? John C-185 (heavy mount and 3-blade) RV-8 "Nuisance" Mullicoupe in the oven Frazier, Vincent A wrote: > > >SNIP One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. >So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those >of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, >or is it from a prop shop? > >Kevin Shannon SNIP > >Brand new from Hartzell, Barry mounts from TeamRocket, Indy mount from >TeamRocket. Everything else was a mixture of Vans, Harmon, and F-1 >parts. No objectionable vibes to me. Getting the prop dynamically >balanced did improve what mild vibration I did have. > >Vince > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: Bob J <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me
One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an effect. One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4 O'clock position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky with a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop vertically, the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201 (IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same reason. Regards, Bob On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > mstewart(at)iss.net> > > A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am. > > > I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a > shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul. > > My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2" > > Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical > readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the > front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the > engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance. > > > Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I > .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight. > > > I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number > VIP50011-20, MFG 15332. > > I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's. > > > I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have, > prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider > it unsafe. Just another data point. > > > Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail) > told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I > tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct > replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about > 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH! > > > Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff. > Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those > that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That > will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the > small vibration I have. > > > Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord > J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order > and should get installed in the next couple of days. > > > Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists > messages. Good stuff. > > > Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever > reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended > blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as > they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy > for working this. > > > Best, > > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me
Date: Oct 26, 2005
FWIW, here's what Bob is talking about for the 4-cyl re-clock: http://rvproject.com/m20j/pdfs/service_bulletins/sbm20-206.pdf Basically you press out the existing bushings in the prop flange and press new ones into different locations. I have not done this on my IO-360-A1B6...my engine & prop are smooth. That said, if and when I ever replace my cheap-ass engine mounts, I'm probably gonna splurge for Lord gel filled sac mounts to apparently reduce shudder at startup/shutdown. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (651 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob J" <rocketbob(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me > > One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an > effect. > One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4 O'clock > position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky > with > a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop > vertically, > the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201 > (IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same reason. > > Regards, > Bob > > On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >> >> mstewart(at)iss.net> >> >> A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am. >> >> >> I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a >> shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul. >> >> My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2" >> >> Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical >> readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the >> front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the >> engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance. >> >> >> Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I >> .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight. >> >> >> I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number >> VIP50011-20, MFG 15332. >> >> I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's. >> >> >> I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have, >> prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider >> it unsafe. Just another data point. >> >> >> Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail) >> told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I >> tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct >> replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about >> 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH! >> >> >> Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff. >> Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those >> that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That >> will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the >> small vibration I have. >> >> >> Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord >> J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order >> and should get installed in the next couple of days. >> >> >> Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists >> messages. Good stuff. >> >> >> Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever >> reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended >> blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as >> they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy >> for working this. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sum up the vibration issue for me
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
My bushings are cast as part of the crank and thus do not allow for reindexing. (I think) Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me FWIW, here's what Bob is talking about for the 4-cyl re-clock: http://rvproject.com/m20j/pdfs/service_bulletins/sbm20-206.pdf Basically you press out the existing bushings in the prop flange and press new ones into different locations. I have not done this on my IO-360-A1B6...my engine & prop are smooth. That said, if and when I ever replace my cheap-ass engine mounts, I'm probably gonna splurge for Lord gel filled sac mounts to apparently reduce shudder at startup/shutdown. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (651 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob J" <rocketbob(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me > > One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an > effect. > One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4 O'clock > position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky > with > a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop > vertically, > the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201 > (IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same reason. > > Regards, > Bob > > On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >> >> mstewart(at)iss.net> >> >> A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am. >> >> >> I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a >> shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul. >> >> My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2" >> >> Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical >> readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the >> front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the >> engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance. >> >> >> Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I >> .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight. >> >> >> I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number >> VIP50011-20, MFG 15332. >> >> I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's. >> >> >> I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have, >> prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider >> it unsafe. Just another data point. >> >> >> Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail) >> told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I >> tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct >> replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about >> 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH! >> >> >> Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff. >> Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those >> that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That >> will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the >> small vibration I have. >> >> >> Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord >> J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order >> and should get installed in the next couple of days. >> >> >> Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists >> messages. Good stuff. >> >> >> Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever >> reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended >> blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as >> they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy >> for working this. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Mail server
Date: Oct 26, 2005
Folks, Our mail server was down for an hour or so. If you sent email today and have not received a reply, please resend. We apologize for any inconvenience. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2005
From: jerry fray <jerryfray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me
Hello rocket list, This is my first post to the list, and figured it was about time to weigh in. I'm one of the alaska rocketeers, and after starting ship #100 in '02, I finally got it in the air this past august. I'm at 36 hours, with all restrictions taken care of, and trying to get as much flying in as possible before the snow flies here. I can say many of you have helped me with postings on the list, and of course F1 Mark was always ready to do just that. I have a stock, high time C4B5 on it, but it's still doing the job of about 215mph indicated at 24 square. Regards the prop, I have a 76", 2 blade Aerocomposite, and it's a very high quality piece. I really chose it for its 38# weight, as I also went with a light, gel cell battery up front, saving about 50# over all.(60# weight at the tail). I do have a vibration between 2200-2400 rpm, but the engine is really smooth at 2100 or 2500+. I've been having too much fun to mess with it, but I'll get a dynamic balance first. I have the barry mounts from F1. Any ideas out there on a vibration like mine?? I'll say that any rocket drivers coming up Anchorage way are to come by and visit. Plan to make Oshkosh next year and get to see some of these awesome machines. Cheers, Jerry Fray jerryfray(at)yahoo.com __________________________________ http://farechase.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Landing on golf course in South Africa
Date: Oct 27, 2005
Plane nearly beheads golfers Oct 26 2005 10:43:58:777PM Jackie Pienaar and Malani Venter The retired MD of the Phalaborwa Mining Company and his fiancee were nearly beheaded by a plane making an emergency landing at the upmarket De Zalze wine estate golf course. Stellenbosch - The retired managing director and chairperson of the Phalaborwa Mining Company and his fiancee nearly died after the wing of a Harvard plane, whose pilot had to make an emergency landing, hit their golf cart on the upmarket De Zalze wine estate's golf couse. Alfred Leroy, 79, probably saved his own and Mary-Ann Brewster, 54, his fiancee's life when he stepped on the accellerator from the passenger seat after Brewster had frozen up behind the wheel. When Leroy stepped on the accellerator, the golf cart moved slightly out of the way. But one of the wings nevertheless took off the roof, and Leroy and Brewster fell out. The unconscious Leroy was taken to the Stellenbosch MediClinic, where he received 20 stitches to a wound to his head. 'Very unfortunate' Brewster, who runs a health shop in Phalaborwa, suffered severe bruising. She was discharged from hospital on Wednesday afternoon, said Nelia Vivier, a spokesperson for the hospital. Kevin Bell, a commercial pilot and probably the most experienced Harvard pilot in the country was at the controls of the plane. "I hate to think what might have happened if he was not at the controls," said Space du Preez, chairperson of the Stellenbosch Flight Club. "He must have used all his experience to prevent a tragedy." Du Preez described the event as "very, very unfortunate". "I'm talking to the De Zalze estate and we will support the victims in any way we can." A very shocked Brewster, who arrived in the country from Britain in 1972, said on Wednesday that she and Leroy were engaged and that they were staying at De Zalze for their "second honeymoon". Leroy is an American who settled in South Africa in 1976 and a keen golf player. Brewster was driving the golf cart when she noticed the plane circling and coming in low to land. About 100m away, the plane landed, but suddenly turned and headed straight for them. "I turned into stone from shock," she said. "Al(fred) stepped on the accellerator and we moved away slightly. The wing took of the whole roof. Blood was flowing from Al's head. If we had not moved away, we would have been beheaded." Leroy said they teed off at the 10th hole and had progressed to the 17th. They had reached his ball for the second shot when they looked back by chance. The plane appeared from behind the tree tops and lost altitude. The next moment it landed on the fairway about 100m away. "There was very little space between the sand pit and the trees," he said. "The plane couldn't stop quickly enough and took off the top part of the cart." Despite their narrow escape, Leroy said they still wanted to see a few more sights before they returned home on Saturday. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me
Date: Oct 28, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Update: I installed the Lord J-9613-12 mounts last night and took a quick night hop for a feel. Preliminary results through the "butt" instrument reveals about 70% of the vibration is gone. This is really good news. Here are my observations: 1. These mounts are a direct replacement for the VIP50011-20, vans part number EA DYNA VI-STD I bought from Vans. Engine hangs in the exact same position 2. Mount "Looks" identical to the old with the exception of the center shaft collar which has a rubber boot molded to it. 3. The old mounts with 60 hours had taken a set and a little out of round. Since I have never removed a used pair of these before I have no idea if this is normal behavior 4. Cost was $400 and was well worth it 5. Install took 3 hours. Should have been 1.5 but I TRIED to do it with out an engine hoist, using a floor jack and it was a futile attempt. Once I got a hoist from a neighboring hanger, I could work the mounts and the bolt with ease. DUH! 6. My real test comes when I mount my highly sensitive "vibration meter", my XM radio. It sits on a docking station, hard mounted on the floor tray and shakes with the vibration. It tremendously exaggerates the vibration and makes it easy to see any progress. Ill do that this weekend. Left it at home by accident yesterday. Imagine if you had your cell phone on the dash of your car, mounted up right and had a tire out of balance. It would shake like crazy and when you did balance the tire you would expect to see less vibration in the phone. Same Same 7. For the first time I was able to feel differences in smoothness in the airframe at various RPM's. The old vibration masked any chance of doing that. In my 10 minute flight 2400 seemed the sweet spot, but much more flying needed with my "vibration meter" 8. I still have some very slight vibration but now I feel this is getting nick picky now. I can certainly enjoy this setup for now before making any rash decisions like changing props, which I may still do... But the pressure to do this is off my shoulders for a while. 9. If I had the decision to make from the building phase, I would have installed these to begin with, or perhaps the J-3804-20 used by Van's on the 10. Those where much smaller and would no doubt be a harder mount which it would seem made my issue better. I have no doubt that there is more science to that but that's my sense. Hartzell told me the best vibration results they have tested were with phenolic blocks, but of course this is not a viable long term solution for manufacturing at this point. I consider the matter closed for now. I HOPE that the new mounts hang in over time. The old ones felt fine on the first few flights, and got worse with time. Thanks to all you buzz heads on the 3rd order harmonics stuff, prop information, and detailed info on your experiences. This has been a great thread. Probably be a few followup's to this by others. Look fwd to reading them. Best, Mike A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am. I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul. My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2" Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance. Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight. I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number VIP50011-20, MFG 15332. I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's. I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have, prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider it unsafe. Just another data point. Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail) told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH! Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff. Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the small vibration I have. Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order and should get installed in the next couple of days. Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists messages. Good stuff. Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy for working this. Best, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: 1st flight
Date: Oct 28, 2005
Charlie Douma of Brampton Ontario, Canada, had his first flight in his new HRII. I am posting this on his behalf and I am not sure what his serial number is. Previous to this he has been a long time Van's supporter and has built two RV3s, a RV4 and a RV8. A few years ago we swapped rides one day, he got to go with me in my HRII and I got my first ride in a RV8. After that he built a rocket and I did not build a RV8. Nothing against RV8, it is a fine airplane, but there really is no comparison in looks or performance! Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2005
From: Peter van Schoonhoven <pvans(at)pacifier.com>
Subject: Motor Mounts
Hello Rocket list readers. I am working on a HRII that was partially built by another person. I am ready to hang the engine on the fuselage. I have the Harmon engine mount and a Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 that was overhauled by a reputable shop. But like the Johhny Cash song about the ....49,50,51 Automobile.... when I went to hang it and put the bolts in, the holes were not there. It seems the motor mount angles and spacing do not match the mounting ears on my engine. I have discovered there is a Dynafocal 1 and 2, and the mounting holes in the engine ears come large and small. The mounting ears on my engine are Lycoming 70456, and it seems that all the RV-10 builders want them. But I want to be sure I end up with mounting ears that work for me in exchange. Question for the group: What part number Lycoming ears fit the Harmon engine mount? Are you using the larger or smaller diameter Lord mounts? I heard the small diameter were the aerobatic and stiffer mounts, but that may be wrong. Thanks in advance for your advice. Regards, Peter HRII in the works, RV3 and C-210 to fly now ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: Motor Mounts
Date: Oct 29, 2005
Peter You need the Lycoming ears that have the large hole. Start calling around to aircraft salvage yards. Ask for the large size holes, the same mounting ears that are used on a Piper Aztec. The engine is a C4B5. They will know which ones. I paid $90US each for the last ones that I purchased from Bobby's planes and parts in Texas. Tom Martin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter van Schoonhoven Subject: Rocket-List: Motor Mounts Hello Rocket list readers. I am working on a HRII that was partially built by another person. I am ready to hang the engine on the fuselage. I have the Harmon engine mount and a Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 that was overhauled by a reputable shop. But like the Johhny Cash song about the ....49,50,51 Automobile.... when I went to hang it and put the bolts in, the holes were not there. It seems the motor mount angles and spacing do not match the mounting ears on my engine. I have discovered there is a Dynafocal 1 and 2, and the mounting holes in the engine ears come large and small. The mounting ears on my engine are Lycoming 70456, and it seems that all the RV-10 builders want them. But I want to be sure I end up with mounting ears that work for me in exchange. Question for the group: What part number Lycoming ears fit the Harmon engine mount? Are you using the larger or smaller diameter Lord mounts? I heard the small diameter were the aerobatic and stiffer mounts, but that may be wrong. Thanks in advance for your advice. Regards, Peter HRII in the works, RV3 and C-210 to fly now ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2005
From: f1rocket(at)telus.net
Subject: Rocket Man
Check out this web site: http://www.bird-man.com/?n=windtunnel&nose=6 This guy base jumps using a Wingsuit, and sustains level flight using jets strapped to his legs, fueled from a hot water bottle. Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: mount ears
Date: Oct 31, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP You need the Lycoming ears that have the large hole. Start calling around to aircraft salvage yards. Ask for the large size holes, the same mounting ears that are used on a Piper Aztec. The engine is a C4B5. They will know which ones. I paid $90US each for the last ones that I purchased from Bobby's planes and parts in Texas. SNIP Don't limit it to salvage yards. I swapped mine for free with a well known engine overhaul shop. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
Date: Oct 31, 2005
Anyone found a nice neat way to seal the boot cowl on an HRII? I get a bit of water in through there when flying in rain. Always good to have your radios getting wet during IFR flight! Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2005
From: Norman Younie <rv6capt(at)pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
Go to your local auto windshield repair location and get some soft rubber sealant from them. It is about 1/2 inch wide and 1/8 thick. It will flatten right out when you tighten the screws down. Works great. Wernerworld wrote: > >Anyone found a nice neat way to seal the boot cowl on an HRII? I get a bit >of water in through there when flying in rain. Always good to have your >radios getting wet during IFR flight! > >Russ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Milt" <rocket(at)swmrmc.org>
Subject: Re: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
Date: Oct 31, 2005
RPD=4.00.0003; RPDID=303030312E30413039303230312E34333636363833302E303033352D412D; ENG=IBF; TS=20051031190107; CAT=NONE; CON=NONE; I fly between the raindrops. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Sealing the HRII boot cowl > > Anyone found a nice neat way to seal the boot cowl on an HRII? I get a bit > of water in through there when flying in rain. Always good to have your > radios getting wet during IFR flight! > > Russ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
Date: Oct 31, 2005
Hey Russ, How about some duct tape. I have some red left over if you want it. Seriously though, have you tried making a gasket out of RTVby putting the cowl in place with a layer of wax paper to avoid it sticking to the boot cowl? Do you get any water inside the cockpit? Let me know what you come up with Jim Stone Wiring. (smoke still inside all wires and boxes) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Sealing the HRII boot cowl > > Anyone found a nice neat way to seal the boot cowl on an HRII? I get a > bit > of water in through there when flying in rain. Always good to have your > radios getting wet during IFR flight! > > Russ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 31, 2005
Subject: HOLIDAY SHOPPING
New Nascar Superstore Opens in Bakersfield, CA HOLIDAY SHOPPING IS HERE....FIND THE BEST DEALS ON YOUR FAVORITE HASCAR DRIVER: WEB SITE: _www.rocketshopcafe.com_ (http://www.rocketshopcafe.com/) email: _nascarsuperstore(at)aol.com_ (mailto:nascarsuperstore(at)aol.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
Date: Nov 01, 2005
Thanks all for the suggestions. I ended up using some low density foam from Home Depot Aviation. The stuff starts about 3/8 thick but squeezes to nothing. Put it all the way around and it appears to work perfect. My Vision Micro computer will appreciate my efforts! It gets a little wacky with water running through it! I also used the same foam around the back of the floppper canopy. Sealed that up real nice too. I found that with the recent addition of boots on the aileron push tubes that my cold air slow is much better. Now we are noticing the small spots where air is coming in. Next one to solve is the flap link holes. Hmmm........ Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SEARKA(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 01, 2005
Subject: Re: 2005 Matronics Email List Fund Raiser [Please Read]...
unsubscribe, please. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2005
From: "FRED LAFORGE" <fred.laforge(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Sealing the HRII boot cowl
I had the same problem on my RV-4 so I`m building kind of an elaborate seal for the canopy front to sit on. Fred LaForge RV-4 0-360 CS EAA Tech Counselor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Sealing the HRII boot cowl > > Anyone found a nice neat way to seal the boot cowl on an HRII? I get a > bit > of water in through there when flying in rain. Always good to have your > radios getting wet during IFR flight! > > Russ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FW: flap holes
Date: Nov 02, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
> ______________________________________________ > From: Frazier, Vincent A > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 8:55 AM > To: 'russ(at)wernerworld.com' > Subject: flap holes > > > Russ, > > What am I going to do with you? All of this is on my website already! > Buried somewhere in that brilliant collection is ALL knowledge worth > knowing about Rockets. > > http://vincesrocket.com/finishing.htm scroll about halfway down the > page to see the world's best flap pushrod seals.... and they only cost > about $0.25 > > 72 hours and they still are perfect in form and function. > > Have fun. > > > Vince Frazier > 3965 Caborn Road > Mount Vernon, IN 47620 > 812-464-1839 work > 812-985-7309 home > F-1H Rocket, N540VF > http://vincesrocket.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: rear seat heat/window defogger
Date: Nov 03, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
> Thank you for the low density foam suggestion. I too started solving > the drafty air problems, and noticed the smaller, and smaller leaks. > (John, you don't understand, we have temperatures below 95 degrees > F.) Anyway, I have carpet in my HR II, and the carpet has a "slit" > for the flap control rod to descend through. The slit is finished > with edge tape sown in, and virtually eliminates the draft. If you > don't want carpet, maybe you could put a naw-ga-hide patch over the > hole with a similar slit in it, or just a small carpet patch. Does > anyone know how to keep the "bride" warm in the back seat with the > cabin heater? I have tried battery powered socks, and even a seat > warmer, but to no avail. Maybe 10,500' in the winter is just not a > good idea. I may fly to Florida this weekend, Les Featherston Les, I sealed up all the air leaks that I reasonably could,and put in heated seats. Tammy says things like "Yeeeooooouuccchhhh! My butt is roasting. How do you turn this down?" LOL But if that hadn't worked, I had a backup plan... a small 12V electric heater that you can get at most auto parts stores for about $25. Some people use them to defrost the windshield too. Mine needs about 10 amps, IIRC. Mount it somewhere or just hold it in your hand. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2005
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: heated rear seat
SpamAssassin (score=-2.567, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.03, BAYES_00 -2.60) Hey Vince, Good to hear that the rear seat heater works ....... this has been my plan to keep the all-important PAX happy also. NO NOT ARCHIVE -- Larry E. James Bellevue, WA HR2 -fuselage / systems- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2005
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: axles / wheel bearing seals
SpamAssassin (score=-2.571, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.03, BAYES_00 -2.60) I have my Cleveland wheels and brakes from John, and bought axles from ACS. The wheels have felt-style seals that do not fit against the axle. In their paperwork, Cleveland makes note of 2 different seals: one felt and the other looks more like a standard rubber-lip seal. Can anyone tell me if this alternate rubber seal from Cleveland is the one to fit the axle; or if there is another sleeve for the axle; or if there is a different axle ?? Larry -- Larry E. James Bellevue, WA HR2 fuselage/systems ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 09, 2005
Subject: Re: axles / wheel bearing seals SpamAssassin (score=-2.571,
requ... You need the spacers ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "chris fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Axels?
Date: Nov 10, 2005
I am also getting to the stage where the axels become necessary - I have the Cleavland wheels from John also - I see Larry got his from ACS - are the 2024T3 aluminum ones adequate(pn11701)? I also have heard through the grapevine that steel axels from a Cessna 172 would work and be much tougher. Which are the recommended ones? One other thing that was talked about briefly was the engine mount ears - I have a 540 AID5 that I am converting to a IO C4B5 and the mounting ear holes are approx. 1.37" (1 3/8). Does anyone know if these are the larger or smaller holes? Thanks Chris F ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Axels?
Date: Nov 10, 2005
For what it's worth two of us here have used the aluminum axles and have over 300 hours between us. They are fine but if you are concerned get the steel ones - it's peace of mind for you. The 1.38" holes are the small ones. Ask your engine shop for the large ones. I bought my eingine at 0SMOH from Dick Waters and he sent me the large hole mounts for $50 each and shipping. Call him if nothing else. You can find his ads in Barnstormers - I don't have a current number for him..It's called Air Tech (sp?). jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Axels? > > I am also getting to the stage where the axels become necessary - I have the Cleavland wheels from John also - I see Larry got his from ACS - are the 2024T3 aluminum ones adequate(pn11701)? I also have heard through the grapevine that steel axels from a Cessna 172 would work and be much tougher. Which are the recommended ones? > One other thing that was talked about briefly was the engine mount ears - I have a 540 AID5 that I am converting to a IO C4B5 and the mounting ear holes are approx. 1.37" (1 3/8). Does anyone know if these are the larger or smaller holes? > > Thanks > Chris F > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Original Rocket (RV3 base)
Date: Nov 10, 2005
Does anyone know if John Harmon produced plans for his original Rocket? I am thinking of building an RV3 and I'd like to use that design for the aesthetics (I'm going light weight and low power - O 235 probably). If I can find the right plane however I might buy a flying -3. jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Professor Fate" <vwbugin(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Rocket 1
Date: Oct 10, 2005
Jim, I am flying a rocket one and building an F-1. The person who owns the rocket 1 doesn't fly anymore and is looking to sell it. I don't have the details here, but If you are interested, I can forward them to you tomorrow. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: axles
Date: Nov 11, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP For what it's worth two of us here have used the aluminum axles and have over 300 hours between us. They are fine but if you are concerned get the steel ones - it's peace of mind for you. SNIP Does it matter? Won't the bolts break long before anything bends the axle? Am I missing something here? Vince - aluminum axles with Clevelands ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket 1
Date: Nov 11, 2005
> I am flying a rocket one and building an F-1. The person who owns the > rocket 1 doesn't fly anymore and is looking to sell it. I don't have the > details here, but If you are interested, I can forward them to you > tomorrow. My understanding, based on a conversation about a year ago with John Harmon, is that there were two fully built. I can say for certain that one is up in Pt.Townsend, Washington and is flown regularly. It's a beaufiful plane and I have a picture of it stashed at home that I'll post if I remember this weekend. Harmon does still sell the parts to convert an RV-3. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Original Rocket (RV3 base)
Date: Nov 11, 2005
No he did'nt. I asked him about that plane a couple times and he finally admitted the thing is a devil and would'nt wish it on anyone. Ron Carter HR2 #49 575 hrs ttsn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Original Rocket (RV3 base) > > Does anyone know if John Harmon produced plans for his original Rocket? I am thinking of building an RV3 and I'd like to use that design for the aesthetics (I'm going light weight and low power - O 235 probably). > > If I can find the right plane however I might buy a flying -3. > > jim > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: axles
Date: Nov 11, 2005
I have AL axles on my ship with 575 hours and no axle problems and I've landed hard enough to hit my prop because of gear leg flex. Ron Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> Subject: Rocket-List: axles > > > SNIP For what it's worth two of us here have used the aluminum axles and > have > over 300 hours between us. They are fine but if you are concerned get > the > steel ones - it's peace of mind for you. SNIP > > Does it matter? Won't the bolts break long before anything bends the > axle? Am I missing something here? > > Vince - aluminum axles with Clevelands > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2005
From: Bowen Miles <cessna170bdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: axles
There is more than one type of aluminum axle that were used on the Cessnas. The first was the lightweight where the axle tube was the same thickness (approx, 0.125) all the way back to the mounting plate. Several 170's have been lost due to these breaking off at the plate. Beign aluminum, it's not one or two hard landings that get them, but over time the fatigue and crack. A later aluminum axle is only thin right at the threads, the rest of the tube back to the plate is about .5 inches thick. A third type of aluminum axle is solid all the way and is used on ski planes. Many 170 owners have coverted to the solid aluminum or the newer steel tubular axles. Miles Bowen C170B HRII plans #211 Starting back to work on wings after 5-year lay-off "Frazier, Vincent A" wrote: SNIP For what it's worth two of us here have used the aluminum axles and have over 300 hours between us. They are fine but if you are concerned get the steel ones - it's peace of mind for you. SNIP Does it matter? Won't the bolts break long before anything bends the axle? Am I missing something here? Vince - aluminum axles with Clevelands ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: axles
Date: Nov 11, 2005
My axles are the solid type. Ron Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bowen Miles" <cessna170bdriver(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: axles > > There is more than one type of aluminum axle that were used on the Cessnas. The first was the lightweight where the axle tube was the same thickness (approx, 0.125) all the way back to the mounting plate. Several 170's have been lost due to these breaking off at the plate. Beign aluminum, it's not one or two hard landings that get them, but over time the fatigue and crack. > > A later aluminum axle is only thin right at the threads, the rest of the tube back to the plate is about .5 inches thick. A third type of aluminum axle is solid all the way and is used on ski planes. Many 170 owners have coverted to the solid aluminum or the newer steel tubular axles. > > Miles Bowen > C170B > HRII plans #211 > Starting back to work on wings after 5-year lay-off > > "Frazier, Vincent A" wrote: > > > SNIP For what it's worth two of us here have used the aluminum axles and > have > over 300 hours between us. They are fine but if you are concerned get > the > steel ones - it's peace of mind for you. SNIP > > Does it matter? Won't the bolts break long before anything bends the > axle? Am I missing something here? > > Vince - aluminum axles with Clevelands > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Another F-1 Flies
Date: Nov 11, 2005
Cal Brubaker flew his F-1 yesterday at Skypark airport in Bountiful UT. Flight went very well, plane looked and sounded terriffic. Cal executed a fine landing in front of fellow builders, friends and family. Congratulations Cal! Ron Carter HRII #49 575 TTSN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LesDrag(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 11, 2005
Subject: Re: Another F-1 Flies
Congratulations! Cal Brubaker. That name looks familiar. It must have a 3 blade MT propeller on it. :-) Another set of Gloss Black blades with Yellow tips flying around in Utah. Best Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 11/11/2005 1:00:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Ron Carter" Cal Brubaker flew his F-1 yesterday at Skypark airport in Bountiful UT. Flight went very well, plane looked and sounded terriffic. Cal executed a fine landing in front of fellow builders, friends and family. Congratulations Cal! Ron Carter HRII #49 575 TTSN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Professor Fate" <vwbugin(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Rocket 1
Date: Nov 11, 2005
Two rocket one's flying is what we know. I have seen the one from Washington and it is a nice looking airplane. I attached a picture of the one I fly, it is based WJF in so cal. The owner/builder isn't flying anymore so I take it out once and a while just to circulate the oil. It is a fine flying airplane. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket 1
Date: Nov 12, 2005
> Two rocket one's flying is what we know. I have seen the one from > Washington and it is a nice looking airplane. I attached a picture of the > one I fly, it is based WJF in so cal. The owner/builder isn't flying > anymore so I take it out once and a while just to circulate the oil. It is > a fine flying airplane. > > Steve And here's a pic of the one in Washington as promised earlier... http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/HarmonRocket1.jpg Randy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2005
Subject: [ Steve Irving ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Steve Irving Lists: RV-List,Rocket-List Subject: New Harmon Rocket 1 http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/vwbugin@sbcglobal.net.11.12.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket 1
Date: Nov 12, 2005
Thanks Randy. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: fuse jigging
Date: Nov 14, 2005
I am getting ready to start jigging up my fuse, I have seen pictures of guys jigging the cockpit area together with the wings in place and right side up which looks like a good idea to me, my question for anybody who has done this, do any skins get match drilled on at this stage, or is it just ribs/bulkheads? Would this be a good time to drill the floor skins on? Kevin Shannon HR II ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: fuse jigging
Date: Nov 14, 2005
I built the center section using the spars but I don't know why you would have to use the wings to build the fixture. No, there are no match drilled skins until you install the wings. Just be careful not to get the inboard skins too close to the fuselage. It makes doing fuel lines and so on extremely difficult when the wing is on and the skins are too close. jim '05 HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 2005
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: fuse jigging
Hi Kevin, Some of the pictures of a fuselage center section being jigged with the wings may have been of mine; they have been posted on John Harmon's site. My reasoning for doing this is somewhat different than most although some points may still apply. I am building the entire fuselage assy / structure without any rivets so that it can be disassembled, etched, primed, and finally assembled at once. This is allowing me to integrate all systems as easily and optimally as possible; if an airframe piece could be modified or made new to incorporate dual (or triple) function, I can do it. What you see in these pictures is the cockpit floor going in as one piece that was CNC machined for accuracy; thus acting as a reference of its own. One thing I've noticed about many RV's is a mis-match of the fuselage underside with the wing underside. Mocking-up all of this up with the wings in place allowed me to match all of the lower skins. It also allowed perfect mating at both front and rear spars. I did no skinning at this stage. Now everyone has their own way and I'm not advocating this way ....... it's just how I went about it. -- Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket II fuselage / systems ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: fuse jigging
Date: Nov 15, 2005
Thanks guys for the good info, I think it WAS your site where I saw the pictures Vince, great site, I have looked around in there a lot while I was supposed to be working. We're almost neighbors Larry, I am over on the Hood Canal in a little place called Seabeck. I would come over there and see your project, except I am mighty skeered of all that TRAFFIC! Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry E. James Subject: Rocket-List: fuse jigging Hi Kevin, Some of the pictures of a fuselage center section being jigged with the wings may have been of mine; they have been posted on John Harmon's site. My reasoning for doing this is somewhat different than most although some points may still apply. I am building the entire fuselage assy / structure without any rivets so that it can be disassembled, etched, primed, and finally assembled at once. This is allowing me to integrate all systems as easily and optimally as possible; if an airframe piece could be modified or made new to incorporate dual (or triple) function, I can do it. What you see in these pictures is the cockpit floor going in as one piece that was CNC machined for accuracy; thus acting as a reference of its own. One thing I've noticed about many RV's is a mis-match of the fuselage underside with the wing underside. Mocking-up all of this up with the wings in place allowed me to match all of the lower skins. It also allowed perfect mating at both front and rear spars. I did no skinning at this stage. Now everyone has their own way and I'm not advocating this way ....... it's just how I went about it. -- Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket II fuselage / systems ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: netiquette.*
Date: Nov 15, 2005
I get a hernia every time I pick up the tail of my HR2 to level the plane for whatever reason but DAM is that tail light taxiing....I bumped the throttle just a little bit once and suddenly I could see over the nose. I was lucky - got it down quickly - but DAM!! jim '05 HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 16, 2005
Subject: Re: netiquette.*
Hi Jim, I have the same sentiments. When I weighed my tail feathers (in level flight attitude) I remember it being about 56 lbs. John was "politely aghast", and stated that he liked under 30 lbs. or so. I am doing this from memory so please forgive me if I am way off. Anyway, I much prefer to "taxi" with a bit of weight in the baggage pit. If I know that I am going to fly solo for several legs, I throw a spare tire from my boat trailer in the pit. About 25 lbs. It greatly enhances my taxi experience. On the second or so flight, I also did the taxi dance, and was fortunate not to nick the prop. Am I correct that changing the landing gear geometry was one of Mark's major changes? Ya'll be careful out there, Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 260 hours. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Light tail - was netiquette.*
Date: Nov 16, 2005
Les - Most of the tail weights I know of have been around 19-25 pounds. Mine was 23. When it's in the taxi position it must weigh around 60 pounds (judging by how hard it is to pick up). As for adding weight - my elevator stick forces are extremely high for anything other than standard rate turns. If I want to do a 4 G turn I have to use both hands. I think I'll throw some weight in the back and go try it. When I have the wife in the back I'm not allowed to do that stuff.......... I don't see how you can change gear geometry to enhance the taxiing experience. You would have to move the wheels forward to eliminate the nose over problem and that would create it's own problems. I am not an engineer but I have read that the main wheels on a tail dragger should be centered under the leading edge in level flight mtcw jim '05 HR2 66 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
"RV3 list" , "RV List"
Subject: list fraud
Date: Nov 16, 2005
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912;INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 Someone keeps sending me list email with my own address on it. The really funny thing is the messages are exactly the same as ones that I sent out earlier. Does anyone else have this problem and how did you deal with it? I'm thinking of blocking email from me - would that work? jim '05 HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JOHNTMEY(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 16, 2005
Subject: Re: Tail Weight
I just did the wt & bal on mine. It came in at 1208# with 41 pounds on the tail. Is that about average ? John Meyers N5800 sn 233 (may fly in Dec) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 16, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Tail Weight
I'm 1205# with 51# on the tail on the ground. ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHNTMEY(at)aol.com To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Tail Weight I just did the wt & bal on mine. It came in at 1208# with 41 pounds on the tail. Is that about average ? John Meyers N5800 sn 233 (may fly in Dec) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 16, 2005
From: Bowen Miles <cessna170bdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: list fraud
Jim wrote: Someone keeps sending me list email with my own address on it. The really funny thing is the messages are exactly the same as ones that I sent out earlier. Does anyone else have this problem and how did you deal with it? I'm thinking of blocking email from me - would that work? jim '05 HR2 Jim, I'm pretty sure that is normal behavior for list mail. You send it to matronics, then matronics sends it to everyone on the list, including you. Miles HRII plans#211, straightening wing ribs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: list fraud
Date: Nov 16, 2005
Jim, You are also a subscriber to the list. If you send an email to the list, all members (including you) receive it. Your own emails will arrive at your mailbox as being sent from you, which is accurate. Blocking yourself? Where will your mailserver go with the rejection message? Back to you? Which you blocked and that message will go ... where? My head starts to spin. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net> ; "RV List" Subject: Rocket-List: list fraud > > Someone keeps sending me list email with my own address on it. The really funny thing is the messages are exactly the same as ones that I sent out earlier. Does anyone else have this problem and how did you deal with it? I'm thinking of blocking email from me - would that work? > > jim > > '05 HR2 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: gear geometry, tail weight and stick forces
Date: Nov 17, 2005
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
List fraud.... sign up for the "digest" and you'll just get one email per day. Tail weight... I'm at 1226 empty weight with 56 pounds on the tail with F-1 gear and it loses all of the tendency to nose down during runup and I've not had any problems with taxi/takeoff ops. The F-1 gear has the wheels moved forward, I forget the dimension, and it DOES make a big difference. You can see by the weights that the gear geometry change puts more weight on the tail. Heavy pitch stick forces... Jim Winings came up with a good bellcrank change that lightens the pitch forces noticably. Details on my website: http://vincesrocket.com/Additions%20after%2010-27-04.htm The bellcrank change doesn't cure the problem, it reduces it. Curing the problem requires putting more weight in the back seat. I fly solo with a 5 gallon poly gas can of water in the baggage. If I pick up a pax, I just dump the water. It is not really necessary to carry the water when solo, but it definitely makes the "feel" more consistent and lighter. I do full stall with pax or water, and wheelies when empty. It is very difficult to get a full stall landing without the weight! Yeah, the weight in back makes a lot of difference. Don't fight it... do what the CG tells you to do! Much easier that way. YMMV, Vince BTW, on the URL above, check out the new jacket and artwork that I just got from RT Foster (the guy you always see at Oshkosh). It's great art and it makes my wife look GOOOOOOD! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ernest Hale <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com>
Subject: Paint
Date: Nov 17, 2005
Anyone know of a good paint shop for the Rocket? Thanks Ernest On Nov 11, 2005, at 6:56 PM, LesDrag(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Congratulations! > > Cal Brubaker. That name looks familiar. It must have a 3 blade MT > propeller on it. :-) > > Another set of Gloss Black blades with Yellow tips flying around > in Utah. > > Best Regards, > Jim Ayers > > In a message dated 11/11/2005 1:00:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, > ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com writes: > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Ron Carter" > > > Cal Brubaker flew his F-1 yesterday at Skypark airport in > Bountiful UT. > Flight went very well, plane looked and sounded terriffic. Cal > executed a fine > landing in front of fellow builders, friends and family. > > Congratulations Cal! > > > Ron Carter > > HRII #49 > > 575 TTSN > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <n144hr(at)earthlink.net>
"RV3 list" , "RV List"
Subject: overhauling mags
Date: Nov 19, 2005
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912;INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 Hi gang - Well it looks like a reasonably priced overhaul or rebuild of your mags has gone down the tubes. You can thank your FAA for that. In order to rebuild and certify aircraft parts the requirements for a shop are intolerable. My cousin would do the best job you could pay for but he would have to completely change his shop setup. The OH shop would have to be contained in it's own separate environment and all parts would have to have cetification and be kept separate from any non-certified parts and hardware - this includes screws, washers, etc. I agree with him that this is too much trouble to go to for a part time activity. Given the necessary changes, etc. it wouldn't pencil out for the consumer. He would have to charge the same as any shop. We haven't even addressed the insurance requirements. Sorry to get your hopes up. On the other hand, if the owner didn't care about an 8313 or whatever it is, it might be a different story. jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: gear legs
Date: Nov 21, 2005
Gearleg question, this applies to the HR II: a friend of mine asked me if I had the "newer" style of gear legs, (hard tellin not knowin) So what is the difference between an old style gear leg and a new style gear leg? Is there an old style and new style engine mount too? My plans set is dated 1995, I don't know when the parts were actually purchased. I bought all my parts second hand. Kevin Shannon Starting fuse HRII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Re: gear legs
Date: Nov 21, 2005
There was a gear leg failure back in 2000 where a heavy rocket broke both legs where the legs exit the motor mount. John immediately added a radius to the leg to act as a "stress riser" relief. If your legs have any sharp inside corners on them you probably ought to take them to a machinist and have the radii turned into them. John Harmon can give you the details. Ron Carter Hr2 # 49 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com> Subject: Rocket-List: gear legs > > > Gearleg question, this applies to the HR II: a friend of mine asked me if I > had the "newer" style of gear legs, (hard tellin not knowin) So what is the > difference between an old style gear leg and a new style gear leg? Is there > an old style and new style engine mount too? My plans set is dated 1995, I > don't know when the parts were actually purchased. I bought all my parts > second hand. > Kevin Shannon > Starting fuse HRII > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: gear legs
Date: Nov 22, 2005
Many thanks to those who replied on/off the list. My gear legs do indeed have the sharp edge machined out of them, which is good. But apparently the Gearlegs and mounts being produced now are 1 1/2" and the older ones I have are 1 3/8". This worries me a little when I look at those spindly little things think about how hard I have plopped my RV-8 down more than once. I don't know if I am worried enough to go spend $2500+ on new legs and motor mount, though.. decisions.. decisions... Kevin Shannon -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Carter Subject: Re: Rocket-List: gear legs There was a gear leg failure back in 2000 where a heavy rocket broke both legs where the legs exit the motor mount. John immediately added a radius to the leg to act as a "stress riser" relief. If your legs have any sharp inside corners on them you probably ought to take them to a machinist and have the radii turned into them. John Harmon can give you the details. Ron Carter Hr2 # 49 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com> Subject: Rocket-List: gear legs > > > Gearleg question, this applies to the HR II: a friend of mine asked me if I > had the "newer" style of gear legs, (hard tellin not knowin) So what is the > difference between an old style gear leg and a new style gear leg? Is there > an old style and new style engine mount too? My plans set is dated 1995, I > don't know when the parts were actually purchased. I bought all my parts > second hand. > Kevin Shannon > Starting fuse HRII > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 22, 2005
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: gear legs
Hi Kevin, Besides adding a radius to the gear leg step at the engine mount socket diameter, John increased the diameter there; requiring both new gear legs and engine mount. -- Larry E. James Bellevue, WA HR2 fuselage / systems ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "blairclan" <blairclan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Nellis visit
Date: Nov 29, 2005
Gents, My squadron is coming to Red Flag at Nellis for the first couple of weeks in February. The only HR2 I've ever seen is mine and there is only one F1 flying down here in Australia. I expect to fly most days but should get some time off. There are 2 things I want to see whilst there - Johns HR3 and Marks Evo wing. (How about it guys?) Any other must see items in the Nellis area for a Rocket enthusiast???? Cheers, Tony. (About 110 hrs now.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-f1builders(at)lists.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:owner-f1builders(at)lists.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Cowl Inlet Ramps Cal It is important that you have an area in the inlet where the flow is straight, or within three degrees of straight, for as long as possible. There is a good article on engine cooling in the August 03 issue of Sport aviation. I played around with a lot of outlet air scenarios but the only thing that made a noticeable difference on speed was to smooth the inlet airflow through this straight "diffusion" area. This area is where the dynamic pressure of the air transitions to static. It is my opinion that most of the improvement due to round inlets is not the reduced drag associated with a smaller surface area but from the fact that the round inlets are positioned farther from the cylinders and this means a longer transition time for the cooling air. Having said all that; I would leave your glass inlets as long as you can and lower the aluminum baffle ramp to match the cowling. Pay attention to the upper cowl, or plenum top, and keep it as smooth as is practical. Although I have used plenums with success I do believe that proper attention to the upper ramps on the cowling itself would do just as good a job of cooling. If you ever get the chance, take a peak in Greg Nelson's air inlets. His attention to detail is amazing, he does not use a plenum, and we all know how fast that plane is! Tom Martin Fairlea Field _____ From: owner-f1builders(at)lists.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:owner-f1builders(at)lists.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of CalBru(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Cowl Inlet Ramps I'm working on the front of the baffle and have discovered that the bottom of the cowl opening at Cyl #1 ( and #2, but the problem is greater with the closeness of the #1 to the front of the cowl) is a bit lower than the mid line of the head and barrel. Thus the ramp will climb pretty steeply up. I'm using the Van's RV10 baffle kit, and a laid up fiberglass pressure plenum. I'm wondering what others have experienced here? Should I cut out the flat bottom portion of the cowl inlet (similar to what was marked on the top half of the cowl) to make this angle less steep? Photos would be appreciated. The only example I have close by are a couple of HRII's and their entire cowl opining seems to be higher as compared to the cylinders. Thanks, Cal Brubaker 116 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2005
Subject: letters ... lots ... they are coming in....
Rocket2Chic(at)aol.com We got 73 employees and 110 based aircrafts... what about us that this is effecting right now, Lets get the right info to the people that matter, not more low income housing that just going to cost the city MORE money. We dont need sidewalks on Union avenue in front of all the wrecking yards.. what for? THEY ARE WRECKING YARDS... no matter how many sidewalks you want to put in, its always going to be wrecked cars and used car parts.. next thing she will ask for is to level Union Avenue she dont got that much pull... thats about 10,000 jobs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Headsets
Date: Dec 01, 2005
I'm looking for a headset with really good active and passive noise cancelling. The DRE-6000 looks like a great buy for 289.00. The Lightspeeds have somewhat better performance but are butt ugly, they are almost twice the price for their best units. Has anyone found a headset that will do a great job in the Rocket? I think Bose is out of the question due to their extreeeem price. Thanks, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Date: Dec 01, 2005
Jim.... Ron Carter once wrote a great piece on this subject. I fly with a DRE 6000 and will soon own two Bose headsets. Ron said basically the same thing.. you can try all the headsets you want but it will save you a lot of money if you just buy the Bose up front. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Headsets > > I'm looking for a headset with really good active and passive noise > cancelling. The DRE-6000 looks like a great buy for 289.00. The > Lightspeeds have somewhat better performance but are butt ugly, they are > almost twice the price for their best units. > Has anyone found a headset that will do a great job in the Rocket? > I think Bose is out of the question due to their extreeeem price. > Thanks, > Jim Stone > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2005
Subject: Re: Headsets
The best I found, and I tried most of them, is the Sennheiser. I have the HMEC 300 John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2005
From: Russ <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
The Bose is a bit quieter and lighter, but for the money you cannot beat the DRE6000. It also has some of the best audio quality for music - much better than the Sennheiser, lightspeeds, and others I have tried. After all ATC only yaks some of time but the music is almost alwqys running! Russ ...... Original Message ....... > >I'm looking for a headset with really good active and passive noise cancelling. The DRE-6000 looks like a great buy for 289.00. The Lightspeeds have somewhat better performance but are butt ugly, they are almost twice the price for their best units. >Has anyone found a headset that will do a great job in the Rocket? >I think Bose is out of the question due to their extreeeem price. >Thanks, >Jim Stone > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Date: Dec 01, 2005
FWIW, Lightspeed sells reconditioned headsets. That's one way to get a decent headset at a reasonable price. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (710 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Headsets > > I'm looking for a headset with really good active and passive noise > cancelling. The DRE-6000 looks like a great buy for 289.00. The > Lightspeeds have somewhat better performance but are butt ugly, they are > almost twice the price for their best units. > Has anyone found a headset that will do a great job in the Rocket? > I think Bose is out of the question due to their extreeeem price. > Thanks, > Jim Stone > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Jim I realize most things that pikots need are expensive beyond what we can afford but a set of lightspeeds will be the best investment you ever made. I tried Denalis and a friends Bose in my Rocket and neither can touch the lightspeeds for comfort or noise reduction especially on long trips. Give up food, sex and booze for 3 months but go with the top end lightspeeds, you will not regret it. Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stone To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Headsets I'm looking for a headset with really good active and passive noise cancelling. The DRE-6000 looks like a great buy for 289.00. The Lightspeeds have somewhat better performance but are butt ugly, they are almost twice the price for their best units. Has anyone found a headset that will do a great job in the Rocket? I think Bose is out of the question due to their extreeeem price. Thanks, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WiningsJ(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2005
Subject: Re: Headsets
Morris Morgan in Burlington, KY converted Peltor headsets to ANR for me. I get to fly a friend's Glasair III at times and it has a set of Bose in it. I would not trade my Peltors even for the Bose. Morris's telephone number is 859-466-6022. Jim Winings #34 - 125 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2005
From: "FRED LAFORGE" <fred.laforge(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Fusillage jig
Anyone in So Cal need a fusillage jig? Built of 2"square 1/4 wall tubing. Fred LaForge RV-4 0-360 CS EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Competition #3
Date: Dec 03, 2005
Folks, this is a simple test of your knowledge of light aircraft. Here are two light planes in a loose formation. See how well you do. http://www.teletuition.org/documents/competition/competition3/formation.html Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rocket Shop" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: Headsets
Date: Dec 03, 2005
Pretty thorough review of the DRE at http://www.avionicswest.com/articles/DRE6000enr.html#6000 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)AOL.COM
Date: Dec 05, 2005
Subject: Fwd: Rocket Lister's Unite!
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:32:29 EST Subject: Rocket Lister's Unite! -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference=20to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending=20your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les FeatherstonHR II"Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Flaps
Date: Dec 05, 2005
HR guys, Well I have my fuse well underway on the jig, it looks to me like the flap torque tube needs to fit in there between the rear control stick and the seat belt anchors for the front seat, according to the plans. Has anybody put the flap torque tube behind the pax seat ala RV-8? This is way more fun than those silly prepunched kits, more freedom to do whatever you want. Kevin Shannon HR II ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: flaps again
Date: Dec 05, 2005
Oops I should have looked at Vince's pictures before I opened my big yapper, I see the seat belt anchors are in front of the torque tube. I still think I want mine behind the rear seat with the electric actuator inside the rear armrest unless anybody thinks this is a bad idea. Kevin Shannon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: flaps again
Date: Dec 05, 2005
Kevin, If you decide to mount the tube in the standard location, try to mount it as far aft as you can and still get the nylon blocks on each end. My fwd stick travel was limited by the tube and I ended up moving both control mixer attach points fwd a 1/4 inch or so. The problem resulted from an incorrect dimension for the control mixer after the addition of the short splice that John gives you to make it longer. His dimension was about 1/8-1/4 inch too long for my bird. This was somewhat of a known problem but I never got the word prior to welding my mixer. Hope this helps. Jim Stone Louisville --- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com> Subject: Rocket-List: flaps again > > Oops I should have looked at Vince's pictures before I opened my big > yapper, > I see the seat belt anchors are in front of the torque tube. I still think > I > want mine behind the rear seat with the electric actuator inside the rear > armrest unless anybody thinks this is a bad idea. > > Kevin Shannon > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 05, 2005
Subject: Headsets?????????
Anyone tried the "Auri-comm" headsets? Look up anr-headsets.com (that's anr "dash" headsets.com) and click on auricomm on the left buttons. $320 seems reasonable for their statistics. The guy that Jim Winings mentioned re-wiring his Peltors is Morris Morgan @ 859-466-6022 and he turned me on to the "auricomms" when I called him. BTW, does anybody have any experience with LightSpeeds Mach One? At $525 it's a bit out-of-my-league, but wondered if anybody likes them. I am shopping because the "bride" gets a headache from every over-the-head type headset. The complaint on Auricomm and Mach One is that it is somewhat irritating to have an ear plug in your ear for a couple of hours. I personally love my LightSpeed -25's, Les Featherston ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CustomACProp(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Rocket Lister's Unite!
Hi All, JIm Ayers 1921 Dorrit St. Newbury Park, CA. 91320 _jim(at)lessdrag.com_ (mailto:jim(at)lessdrag.com) _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) RV-3 sn 50 N47RV SIO-243 engine & CS propeller - Flying HR2 sn269 (50% complete 99% to go) Lyc. IO-540-D4B5 & MT 4 blade propeller no external antenna's & other minor mods. :-) In a message dated 12/05/2005 11:58:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2005
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: flap torque tube
Hi Kevin and all, I'm just moving into my flap system and will be trying something a little different. My idea is to run the torque tube through the fuselage sides and have the arm under the wing root faring between the wing and fuselage. This gives me 2 options for where the torque tube is; above or below the cockpit floor - I'm working hard to get it in below the floor. The challenge in this is getting the necessary throw while avoiding the rear spar carry-through. If I can't get this to work out easily, I'll put the torque tube above the floor. Even then, there is a nice advantage in easily sealing the flap actuator: a simple round hole with plastic bushing for the bearing and seal and no slot for the flap link to worry about. Just thought I'd put this on the table if anyone else wants to play with it also. -- Larry E. James HR2 fuselage / systems Bellevue, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2005
From: Lee Armstrong <kevin(at)bondedcomponents.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: X-plane Software
Hi There, Does anyone know / use / like this software sim. I'm looking at it as a idea for a present for my father, it looks very acurate and less gimicky - I've found the odd Vans aircraft for it, has anyone done a Rocket / F1 ??? Dad is a good pilot and flying for 35+ years in all sorts of small aircraft (Learnt on Tigermoths, Turbulent, Rockwell 114, Ameroud (sp?), 1st Uk RV4, almost 1st UK rocket)....however while he has a PC that I set-up for him and does use email, I wouldn't in any way shape or form class him as particularly computer literate ! Other ideas are always welcome for a guy who has most things he wants (P51 & Lear Jet excluded) and more capability of getting them anyway ! Hence I'm the one who reads/posts here and i can be happy that he won't read this message before Christmas ;-) Other ideas are always welcome for a guy who has most things he wants (P51 & Lear Jet excluded) and more capability of getting them anyway ! Thanks, Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2005
From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Lister's Unite!
Lee Logan, just ordered F1 but have not yet received kit. N115FM (reserved). leeloganster(at)gmail.com, 664 West Branch Road, Ridgeland, SC 29936, currently flying an RV-4 with 100+ hours in type. On 12/6/05, CustomACProp(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Hi All, > > JIm Ayers > 1921 Dorrit St. > Newbury Park, CA. 91320 > _jim(at)lessdrag.com_ (mailto:jim(at)lessdrag.com) > _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) > RV-3 sn 50 N47RV SIO-243 engine & CS propeller - Flying > HR2 sn269 (50% complete 99% to go) Lyc. IO-540-D4B5 & MT 4 > blade propeller > no external antenna's & other minor mods. :-) > > In a message dated 12/05/2005 11:58:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, > rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: > > Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but > somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors > without reference > to > > their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending > your > names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address > (both > > e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of > build. > > I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual > Rebel's > Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. > N37 > 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in > anytime. > Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JOHNTMEY(at)AOL.COM
Date: Dec 06, 2005
Subject: Re: Unite
John Meyers johntmey(at)aol.com 122 Kitfox Lane Sequim, WA 98382 360-683-6526 HR II sn 233 N 5800 ARF (almost ready to fly, Dec 2005) IO- 540 C4B5 stock 250 hp RV-8 tail with Team Rocket speed windscreen and canopy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon(at)seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Unite
Date: Dec 06, 2005
Kevin Shannon kshannon(at)aol.com HR II S/N 75 (bought kits last summer, had been in a crate several years) wings and RV-8 tail built Jigging up fuse skeleton Have IO540C4B5 from Aztec 800 smoh 2053 Nellita RD NW Seabeck, WA 98380 206-786-1488 built and flew RV-9a for 175 hrs built and flew RV-8 for 80 hours 4th homebuilt 3rd divorce ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2005
From: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1(at)mail.ev1.net>
Subject: Re: Unite
>Kevin Shannon >kshannon(at)aol.com > >HR II S/N 75 (bought kits last summer, had been in a crate several years) >wings and RV-8 tail built >Jigging up fuse skeleton >Have IO540C4B5 from Aztec 800 smoh > >2053 Nellita RD NW >Seabeck, WA 98380 >206-786-1488 > >built and flew RV-9a for 175 hrs >built and flew RV-8 for 80 hours >4th homebuilt >3rd divorce At least you have your priorities in order, more airplanes than divorces, John Bolding Baytown TX 281-383-0113 F1 in the oven (just started) RV3 built a LONG time ago (#12 to fly) now has over 2000 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2005
From: "FRED LAFORGE" <fred.laforge(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Rocketeers Unite
Fred LaForge fred.laforge(at)verizon.net HR-II, Fuse on wheels, engine hung , wiring and plumbing to go. 1944 Grasscreek Dr. San Dimas CA 91773 Fred LaForge RV-4 0-360 CS EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 06, 2005
Subject: Back from Les
Thanks for joining the Rocket Roster. Good luck on your test flight. Should be one of the best days of your life. Do you have RV or Rocket experience? Just do it right. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Wymer" <jerryw(at)higherspeed.net>
Subject: Fwd: Rocket Lister's
Unite!
Date: Dec 06, 2005
(not processed: message from valid local sender) Jerry Wymer Sandia Airpark Edgewood, NM HRII, S/N 239, empennage & wings done, fuselage 90%, canopy next, stock IO-540 C4B5, 0 STOH jerryw(at)higherspeed.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Morocketman(at)aol.com Subject: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 8.0/5.0] Rocket-List: Fwd: Rocket Lister's Unite! From: Morocketman(at)aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:32:29 EST Subject: Rocket Lister's Unite! -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference=20to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending=20your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les FeatherstonHR II"Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Morocketman(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 07, 2005
Subject: Rocket Lister's Unite! Back from Les
Hi Jerry, Thanks for joining the Rocket Roster. Will send you the list in a couple of weeks. Keep up the good work. LES ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2005
From: N395V <N395V(at)direcway.com> Unite!
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rocket Lister's
Unite! Milt Concannon McComb Mississippi F1Rocket SN #69 360 hrs Stock IO540 250HP ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Wymer To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:28 PM Subject: RE: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 8.0/5.0] Rocket-List: Fwd: Rocket Lister's Unite! Jerry Wymer Sandia Airpark Edgewood, NM HRII, S/N 239, empennage & wings done, fuselage 90%, canopy next, stock IO-540 C4B5, 0 STOH jerryw(at)higherspeed.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Morocketman(at)aol.com To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Subject: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 8.0/5.0] Rocket-List: Fwd: Rocket Lister's Unite! From: Morocketman(at)aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:32:29 EST Subject: Rocket Lister's Unite! To: dralle(at)matronics.com -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les Featherston HR II "Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949 Hi Matt, I was very happy to contribute to the list fund this year, but somewhat disappointed to receive the list of contributors without reference=20to their "type" list. All you Rocketeer's out there, do you mind sending=20your names to me for a Master Rocket List? Please include your name, address (both e-mail and snail), N-number, type of Rocket, hours flown, or state of build. I would like to invite all of you Rocket Pilots to the Fourth Annual Rebel's Bluff FlyIn for Rockets, and RV's, on May 13, 2006, near Mt Vernon, MO. N37 06.1 and W93 52.2. And of course, you can just call, and stop in anytime. Les FeatherstonHR II"Airgasm" has 255 hours, Wow! 417-466-4663 -------------------------------1133803949-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GeneHCO(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 08, 2005
Subject: Re: 2005 List of Contributors (Update)...
My check is in the mail. Better late than never! Gene Holcomb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2005
From: H PAINE <bluebird266(at)dslextreme.com>
Subject: flap motor service report
To all Just ordered 3rd flap motor in 390 hrs!! anybody else going through them that quickly?? Harry 266HP 395 HRS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rocket Shop" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Re: flap motor service report
Date: Dec 09, 2005
Harry, You gotta learn to take them apart and clean off the armature. I did that and mine has been fine since (80 hours later). There is a somewhat helpful page on how to do this at vans site. Russ > > To all > > Just ordered 3rd flap motor in 390 hrs!! anybody else going through them > that quickly?? > > Harry > 266HP > 395 HRS > > > > > > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2005
From: Ken Sebok <ksebok(at)chinita.com>
Subject: Re: flap motor service report
Harry- I've had the problem twice now in 175 hrs in my F-1- intermittent operation, followed by complete failure. The first time (at about 50 hours), I pulled the motor apart and cleaned it out, which seemed to fix the problem. The second time (110 hrs), per something I read on the RV list, I put a few small drops of 3-in-1 oil into the motor at the shaft. The motor started functioning normally almost immediately, and has not missed a beat since. Obviously, the oil fix was much easier than pulling the motor out and disassembling it. I thought about drilling a small hole in the floor board (under my front seat) so that if it happens again, I'll be able to hopefully fix it without pulling out the interior. I believe that the original idea for the oil came from someone at Vans. Good luck. Ken > > To all > > > > Just ordered 3rd flap motor in 390 hrs!! anybody else going through them > > that quickly?? > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2005
Subject: [ Les Featherston ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Les Featherston Lists: RV-List,Rocket-List Subject: Harmon Rocket http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Morocketman@aol.com.12.10.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2005
Subject: [ Scott Lewis ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Scott Lewis Lists: RV-List,RV3-List,RV4-List,RV6-List,RV7-List,RV8-List,RV9-List,RV10-List,Rocket-List Subject: PiRep - Deluxe Fuel Caps http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/rv10@tpg.com.au.12.10.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: [ Scott Lewis ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
Date: Dec 10, 2005
These fuel caps are standard on the new EVO tapered wing from Team Rocket. They are quite nice and the ability to lock is a nice addition as well. Tom Martin Subject: PiRep - Deluxe Fuel Caps http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/rv10@tpg.com.au.12.10.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: flap motor service report
Date: Dec 11, 2005
I had almost forgot about this, I too had my flap motor quit, at about the 50-60 hour point, I lowered the flaps after engine start to check the operation, and they would not return up. I sprayed a little ACF-50, the anti corrosion lubricant, into the top of the motor into little cooling holes that are there on the off chance it might get the motor going again (I suspected dirty brushes or something along those lines) and Low a behold and much to my surprise.., it starting working again immediately, and has worked flawless ever since, that was 300 flight hours ago, and three years ago. I should probably spray a little in there every annual just to make sure! Greg Nelson, F-1 Rocket -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rocket Shop Subject: Re: Rocket-List: flap motor service report Harry, You gotta learn to take them apart and clean off the armature. I did that and mine has been fine since (80 hours later). There is a somewhat helpful page on how to do this at vans site. Russ > > To all > > Just ordered 3rd flap motor in 390 hrs!! anybody else going through them > that quickly?? > > Harry > 266HP > 395 HRS > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: MAP switch for ElectroAir ignition system
Date: Dec 19, 2005
Jeff Ross's install manual calls for a MAP switch to be installed to aid in troubleshooting. The switch allows for the MAP sensor to be blocked or discounted. I'm thinking of locating this switch under the right floor panel just forward of the wing spar and not accessable in flight. Does anyone know of a reason to have this switch more readily available? Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2005
From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Need input
"rocket-list" , INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -2.0210;INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -2.0210 My son (wife & two grandsons) is now living in Everett, Washington. I'm looking for a source in that area for him to continue with flight training. He has not flown except with me or Tom in the Rocket in 8-10 years. I'm going up there for Christmas & think flight training/ground school etc would make a great Christmas gift. Need input from someone in that area. KABONG HRII N561FS MERRY CHRISTMAS. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "david stroud" <dstroud(at)storm.ca>
Subject: Another Rocket engine?
Date: Dec 27, 2005
We have an IO 520 for available for sale.300 hp, zero time, new crank, new cycles all factory done. Full logs and paper trail, accessories. If interested, pls email direct to : dstroud(at)storm.ca thanks.. David Stroud ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolisdesign.com>
Subject: Rockets to Mexico!!
Date: Jan 02, 2006
Hey Rocket guys, consider this- Anyone interested in flying to Mexico in our Rockets? Several of us in Utah went to Baja several years ago and had a fantastic time. We stayed at the Hotel Serinidad in Mulege (mule-a-hay) just north of Loreto on the Sea of Cortez. At the Serinidad you land on a 3,300' coral sand strip right in front of the hotel. It is a thirty yard walk to the front door. There is a small town to explore, some tourist type bus ride adventures to be had from the hotel and whale watching across the peninsula on the Pacific side as well. I am writing this to see if there is any interest among Rocket folk to go on another trip some time this spring- late march -may time frame. If so I will start looking into planning another trip. Ron Carter N230 RC 585 TT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2006
From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
Guys: I'm in the process of building up an IO-540 for my F1. I have the core and crank I need, and some accessories. I am especially interested in a pair of Slick (impulse) mags and ignition harness for the engine if there is anyone out there who has good ones available (from an electronic ignition installation perhaps?). I will probably go with electronic on at least one side (P-Mag when their 6-cylinder version becomes available), but for now I plan to fly off the operational letter with two Slicks on board. I am also shopping for a B&C 40A externally regulated alternator. Can anyone help---especially with the Slicks and harness? Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2006
From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
While we are at it, is anyone using the GAMI Prism system on their IO-540? I haven't heard too much about this system (in comparison to several of the others). How does it perform, advantages, disadvantages, etc.?? Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2006
From: John Huft <rv8(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List:
GAMI PRISM is not yet ready for prime time. It has been promised as the savior for years, but is still sometime in the future, at best. John Lee Logan wrote: > >While we are at it, is anyone using the GAMI Prism system on their IO-540? >I haven't heard too much about this system (in comparison to several of the >others). How does it perform, advantages, disadvantages, etc.?? > >Regards, > >Lee... > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2006
From: jim dhillon <planecrackpot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Anybody know of a F1 kit for sale?
Hi Guys, Anyone selling a unstarted or barely started F1 or Harmon Rocket kit ? Interested in full or partial kits also.. I am located in NE USA. thanks! --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2006
From: Granwel Esteban <burningbluephoto(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anybody know of a F1 kit for sale?
hi - I have a f1 tail kit for sale...untouched. On 1/5/06, jim dhillon wrote: > > > Hi Guys, > Anyone selling a unstarted or barely started F1 or Harmon Rocket kit > ? Interested in full or partial kits also.. I am located in NE USA. > thanks! > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Furey" <john(at)fureychrysler.com>
Subject: Anybody know of a F1 kit for sale?
Date: Jan 06, 2006


August 12, 2005 - January 06, 2006

Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-ao