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Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-at
March 17, 2008 - September 30, 2008

mark manda ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2008
From: "Schaetzel, Paul" <paul.schaetzel(at)lmco.com>
Subject: For Sale: RV-4 wing kit, HRII wing parts, HRII LG
Just sell your RV 9 and work on your rocket! It would be completed in know time. Paul S TSP #44 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Kurth Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: Rocket-List: For Sale: RV-4 wing kit, HRII wing parts, HRII LG --> I just don't have the time to work on my Rocket project. I haven't even finished painting the RV that's been flying for 3 years. So I'm selling the project. The wing kit is an older one and has not been touched. It is missing most of the hardware and the crates are gone, so pick up only. RV4 wing kit HRII wing and center section parts HRII landing gear, still wrapped HRII Plans 6K for all of it. I'm willing to sell just the gear or HRII parts separately Located in SoCal (TSP) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: flap actuator and pitot tube for sale
Date: Mar 26, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Guys, A local Rocket builder has a new flap actuator motor and a new Gretz GA-1000 heated pitot tube for sale. Details on the URL below. Thanks, Vince http://vincesrocket.com/products.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2008
From: "Ron Carter" <n230rc(at)gmail.com>
Subject: HR2 For Sale
Hi Guys- I have decided to sell my Rocket. Pretty nice machine, 675 ttsn on airframe, 450 on major overhaul w/ 10:1 pistons, flow balanced cyls. EI and JPI gauges. GPS 496, sl40, 320 txp. 242 mph @ 5,000 msl at full power. $125,000 Includes annual w/ sale. Located Bountiful Skypark, UT (BTF) Ron Carter 801-699-2609 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HR2 For Sale
Ron, I have an interested individual, could you send me some photos off line? Thanks, RR smokyray(at)yahoo.com Ron Carter wrote: Hi Guys- I have decided to sell my Rocket. Pretty nice machine, 675 ttsn on airframe, 450 on major overhaul w/ 10:1 pistons, flow balanced cyls. EI and JPI gauges. GPS 496, sl40, 320 txp. 242 mph @ 5,000 msl at full power. $125,000 Includes annual w/ sale. Located Bountiful Skypark, UT (BTF) Ron Carter 801-699-2609 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall(at)gotsky.com>
Subject: HR II Sale
Date: Mar 28, 2008
Rocketeers, there are a couple of rockets for sale on Barnstormers.com as well, blue skies. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup!
Dear Listers, I've added two new Email Lists to the Matronics List and Forum lineup today. These include the Rans-List and RV12-List. Please surf over to the Matronics List Subscription page and sign up for these new Lists if they are of interest to you: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Full support on the Forums, List Browse, Archives, etc. is available. Rans-List: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rans-List RV12-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV12-List Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2008
Subject: (no subject)
John, Are there any closer to San Diego than your facility in Bakersfield? Maybe the EAA chapter at Brown Field near San Ysidro? Don Don Bently, Program Manager Enterprise Targeting Solutions International Programs Office: 858-592-1717 Mobile: 858-705-2744 e-mail: _don.bently(at)baesystems.com_ (mailto:don.bently(at)baesystems.com) ____________________________________ From: HarmonRocket(at)aol.com [mailto:HarmonRocket(at)aol.com] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:35 AM Subject: (no subject) Try to find one to set in. I thank you well like it. John John Harmon D & J Harmon Co., Inc. 2201 Coy Avenue Bakersfield, CA 93307 661-396-3570 661-396-3574 FAX web: _www.harmonso2generators.com_ (http://www.harmonso2generators.com/) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: EFIS One Price Slashed!!!
From: "cdwambolt" <cdwambolt(at)cox.net>
Date: Apr 02, 2008
Well OK, I dropped it a little, and added OBO. BLUE MOUNTAIN EFIS ONE $7,200 OBO FOR SALE Never flown, just back from BMA with memory upgrade and a clean bill of health. This unit provides: Autopilot (servos sold separately), ADI/HSI, compass, Airspeed, Altimeter, Altitude alerter, encoder, VSI, Slip/Skid, Turn and Bank, Clock, OAT, GPS, Moving map, Navigation database, Fuel totalizer, Flight data recorder, Fuel Level, Fuel Flow, Tachometer, Manifold Press, Coolant Temp, Voltmeter, Oil Press, Oil Temp, CHT, EGT, Ammeter, no need for vacuum system Asking less than 1/2 price of new, $7200 OBO Thanks Larry 602-363-2888 Charlie 602-763-7131 -------- C D Wambolt RV-8 Fastback (Showplanes) N8390 CHD (Chandler AZ) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174525#174525 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2008
From: "David Miller" <David.Miller(at)cmworks.com>
Subject: Flight training
Is there anyone that does flight training in a rocket? Do insurance companies recognize flight time in a Harmon interchangeably with an F1, and vice-versa? Is there any insurance companies that will insure initial flight testing without make and model time; If not what is the typical minimum flight time before they will insure you? David Miller HRII in process Lexington, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CalBru(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight training
I flew my F-1 naked for 20 hours to qualify for insurance. I only had 20 hours TW and 900 TT at the time. I did some flight training with Mike Seager in an RV7 up in Scapoose and did a couple hours in an Extra 300 at Boulder City, NV. To prepare for my first flight. I carry liability only through Falcon under their EAA program and it's around $650/ yr. My Bearhawk is $900 year for the same coverage because it's has 4 seats (and cruises at only 125 kts!!!). Cal B (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 2008
Subject: Hi torque sky tek starter
Hey guys if anybody needs a good deal on a starter I just bought a hi torque Skytek from Larry Tague in Florida, he has one more left at $300. Mine is virtually new was only used 6 or 7 times. He has an add on barnstormers. Makes up for the crappy one I had that I bought from that Outlaw 540 guy. Kevin Shannon **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/11/08
Date: Apr 12, 2008
Doug Rozendaal is the only guy I know of that gives dual in his Rocket. It is an F1 EVO (ole 84). I don't have contact info for him handy, but am sure that F1 Boss has it! I developed a training syllabus for use in the F1 that was approved by Cannon Aviation Insurance for a 10% discount. My F1 is not insured to give dual in ($$$!) but I would consider flying with you in yours, or you can come "ride" with me any time. I am just down the road in Memphis, TN. Gimme a call if I can help. Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net 901 606-6735 F1 Rocket (sport wing) Memphis, TN. From: "David Miller" <David.Miller(at)cmworks.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Flight training Is there anyone that does flight training in a rocket? Do insurance companies recognize flight time in a Harmon interchangeably with an F1, and vice-versa? Is there any insurance companies that will insure initial flight testing without make and model time; If not what is the typical minimum flight time before they will insure you? David Miller HRII in process Lexington, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/11/08
Jeff: Is your syllabus available?? On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Jeff Linebaugh wrote: > jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net> > > Doug Rozendaal is the only guy I know of that gives dual in his Rocket. > It > is an F1 EVO (ole 84). I don't have contact info for him handy, but am > sure > that F1 Boss has it! > > I developed a training syllabus for use in the F1 that was approved by > Cannon Aviation Insurance for a 10% discount. My F1 is not insured to give > dual in ($$$!) but I would consider flying with you in yours, or you can > come "ride" with me any time. I am just down the road in Memphis, TN. > > Gimme a call if I can help. > > > Jeff Linebaugh > jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net > 901 606-6735 > F1 Rocket (sport wing) > Memphis, TN. > > > From: "David Miller" <David.Miller(at)cmworks.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Flight training > > Is there anyone that does flight training in a rocket? Do insurance > companies recognize flight time in a Harmon interchangeably with an F1, > and vice-versa? Is there any insurance companies that will insure initial > flight testing without make and model time; If not what is the typical > minimum flight time before they will insure you? > > > David Miller > HRII in process > Lexington, TN > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "capmrp" <capmrp(at)cfu.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/12/08
Date: Apr 14, 2008
Doug Rozendaal is in the same EAA chapter as me and has extensive t/w experience. He's also an FAA Check Airman and received exemption to give dual in his F1. I have taken dual from him in other aircraft and believe him to be an excellent instructor. He lives in Mason City, IA (KMCW) and can be reached at: 800-383-5823 or dougr(at)petroblend.com R/ mp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rocket-List Digest Server" <rocket-list(at)matronics.com> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 1:57 AM Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/12/08 > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-04-12&Archive=Rocket > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-04-12&Archive=Rocket > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Rocket-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 2 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 08:57 AM - Hi torque sky tek starter (Im7shannon(at)aol.com) > 2. 03:22 PM - Re: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/11/08 (Jeff > Linebaugh) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com > Subject: Rocket-List: Hi torque sky tek starter > > Hey guys if anybody needs a good deal on a starter I just bought a hi > torque > Skytek from Larry Tague in Florida, he has one more left at $300. Mine is > virtually new was only used 6 or 7 times. He has an add on barnstormers. > Makes > > up for the crappy one I had that I bought from that Outlaw 540 guy. > Kevin Shannon > > > **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & > Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net> > Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/11/08 > > > Doug Rozendaal is the only guy I know of that gives dual in his Rocket. > It > is an F1 EVO (ole 84). I don't have contact info for him handy, but am > sure > that F1 Boss has it! > > I developed a training syllabus for use in the F1 that was approved by > Cannon Aviation Insurance for a 10% discount. My F1 is not insured to give > dual in ($$$!) but I would consider flying with you in yours, or you can > come "ride" with me any time. I am just down the road in Memphis, TN. > > Gimme a call if I can help. > > > Jeff Linebaugh > jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net > 901 606-6735 > F1 Rocket (sport wing) > Memphis, TN. > > > From: "David Miller" <David.Miller(at)cmworks.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Flight training > > Is there anyone that does flight training in a rocket? Do insurance > companies recognize flight time in a Harmon interchangeably with an F1, > and vice-versa? Is there any insurance companies that will insure initial > flight testing without make and model time; If not what is the typical > minimum flight time before they will insure you? > > > David Miller > HRII in process > Lexington, TN > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: screaming eagle tailwheels
Date: Apr 17, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Guys, My site, the oldest and largest Rocket site on the web, has been down or under construction temporarily due to "upgrades" made by my ISP. I am told that this is a temporary thing, but since most ISP tech support people speak non-english tongues as a primary language, I'm not really sure if they know. Certainly, they can't communicate the situation very well. Regardless, I am still here and still have tailwheels, tires, graphics, and other trinkets for your RV orRocket. Contact me directly if you can't access the website... which seems likely for at least a few weeks until the ISP "upgrades" are completed. Vince Frazier vfrazier(at)usi.edu 812-464-1839w 812-985-7309h Thanks, Vince Frazier Screaming Eagle Graphics and Accessories, LLC 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 http://vincesrocket.com/products.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: screaming eagle tailwheels
Date: Apr 17, 2008
A couple of weeks? How much are you paying for this service, Vince? Doesn't sound right. _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frazier, Vincent A Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:27 AM Subject: Rocket-List: screaming eagle tailwheels Guys, My site, the oldest and largest Rocket site on the web, has been down or under construction temporarily due to "upgrades" made by my ISP. I am told that this is a temporary thing, but since most ISP tech support people speak non-english tongues as a primary language, I'm not really sure if they know. Certainly, they can't communicate the situation very well. Regardless, I am still here and still have tailwheels, tires, graphics, and other trinkets for your RV orRocket. Contact me directly if you can't access the website... which seems likely for at least a few weeks until the ISP "upgrades" are completed. Vince Frazier vfrazier(at)usi.edu 812-464-1839w 812-985-7309h Thanks, Vince Frazier Screaming Eagle Graphics and Accessories, LLC 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 <http://vincesrocket.com/products.htm> http://vincesrocket.com/products.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: Jerry Manda <174mm(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: For Sale: RV-4 wing kit, HRII wing parts, HRII LG
Cam, sorry, my father is at the point where he doesn't want to spend any more on the rocket. thx for the offer. mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Four New Email Lists At Matronics!!
Dear Listers, I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the following categories: Citabria-List Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, and Champ Zenith601-List Zenair Zodiac CH 601 Zenith640-List Zenair Zodiac CH 640 Zenith701801-List Zenair STOL CH 701 and CH 801 All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives, Forums, Chat, etc., etc. etc...: Citabria: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?citabria-list Zenith601: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith601-list Zenith640: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list Zenith701801: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here: http://forums.matronics.com Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: Apr 30, 2008
Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: F1 for sale
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: May 01, 2008
2003 F1 Rocket For Sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadly the time has come to sell my F1 Rocket. As many of you know it has sort of been for sale since last April but I have rather discouraged buyers with an elevated price and not updating some items that needed addressing, as I wasn't really ready to let it go. Now I am close to getting my other plane back in the air and I really do not need 2 airplanes. It is a 2003 Rocket with only 2 owners. I have owned it for the last 500hrs and 4 years. It had its last Condition Inspection in February of this year and had the new style engine mount put on at that time. Everything works, the interior is less than 1 year old. Has a minimal amount of hangar rash but otherwise it is in excellent condition. More photos and specs can be seen at http://www.bearcataviation.com/album...les&menuID=2~2 -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180460#180460 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/arkansas_f1_panel_original_534.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_0463_small_735.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Villery III" <jetman(at)mho.com>
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 01, 2008
----- Original Message ----- From: Larry James To: rv-list(at)matronics.com ; rocket-list(at)matronics.com ; engines-list(at)matronics.com ; lancair-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines Thanks for the update on this scum-bag. I think you should send O.J.Simpson in to recover your money. But serioulsy, in an effort keep to the homebuilt community from free from cheats like this, please keep his good for nothing name in the forefront. Thanks Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 02, 2008
You may have lost that money for good, Larry. I am not sure what's the rule in WA where the agreement occurred and him living in CA now where you have to collect, but the statute of limitations may have run out. If that's the case, he legally doesn't owe you anything. Check with your attorney before wasting money on this any further. Nico _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:34 PM engines-list(at)matronics.com; lancair-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 02, 2008
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
It would be surprising if the statute of limitations is that short in either state. Most commercial contracts are 3 or 5 years and the clock doesn't necessarily start when the contract is signed, but when a commercial dispute arises, so I'd be surprised if you've lost your claim by estoppel. Nonetheless, you shouldn't delay. And, there are a lot of hungry lawyers out there that might take it on contingency, so it wouldn't cost you anything if you don't recover. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines You may have lost that money for good, Larry. I am not sure what's the rule in WA where the agreement occurred and him living in CA now where you have to collect, but the statute of limitations may have run out. If that's the case, he legally doesn't owe you anything. Check with your attorney before wasting money on this any further. Nico _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:34 PM engines-list(at)matronics.com; lancair-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 02, 2008
I purchased a large machine tool from someone in WA. When it arrived on the east coast, it was not as represented. After numerous telephone banters, and promises, the clever salesperson was merely marking time. I ended up scrapping a $9000. machine for less than $200. Move fast! Archie ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines You may have lost that money for good, Larry. I am not sure what's the rule in WA where the agreement occurred and him living in CA now where you have to collect, but the statute of limitations may have run out. If that's the case, he legally doesn't owe you anything. Check with your attorney before wasting money on this any further. Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:34 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com; rocket-list(at)matronics.com; engines-list(at)matronics.com; lancair-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2008
From: Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
I'm very sorry to hear that. I bought a lot of engines from him from '96-2000, and he was terrific to work with back then. His shop was spotless and very busy. I don't doubt what you say, if I had to buy an engine today I'd approach him with great caution, if at all. But back then he was honest and straightforward. I hate to see business fail. > >---------- >From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:34 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com; rocket-list(at)matronics.com; >engines-list(at)matronics.com; lancair-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Rocket-List: crooks at Performance Engines > >Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has >owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two >years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with >Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no >matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should >be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone >else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same >category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an >attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening >letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So >far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada >while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult >and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do >with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Gearleg fairings?
Date: May 09, 2008
Hey Fellas I've been flying my Harmon Rocket for a grand total of 5 hours now and all was going well until I put on the gearleg fairings and wheelpants. When I first flew it without the fibreglass bits she would pull to the left ever so slightly at full throttle and require very light right rudder to keep the ball centered. Now with the fairings and pants installed the ball is to the right about 3 ball widths and requires quite a lot of right rudder pressure to keep the ball centered.. I removed the wheelpants last night and flew it like that with no improvement, so I guess I have the gearleg fairings creating drag.Now my question is would it be the port (left) fairing creating the drag and the right one would be OK. or could they both be out. My theory is that they are mini airfoils and both could be creating pressure and trying to turn the ship around the center point. They look to be in line if you just eyeball them, and I was very careful (I thought) in aligning them with the airflow when installed, but the best laid plans and all that. I sure don't want to make another set of intersection fairings.Anyone have this problem? any suggested fixes? Thanks Chris F ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: For Sale - RMI uMonitor - NEW - All Probes and Upgrades!
Dear Listers, I am selling a new, never used, fully assembled RMI uMonitor with all the probes for a 4-cylinder engine including Fuel Flow, 4ea EGT, 4ea CGT, Carb Temp, and Manifold pressure. The uMonitor just had all of the latest hardware and software updates factory installed including the new high contrast LCD display supporting Fahrenheit temp readings AND the new LED fiberoptic backlight. Also included is the Aircraft Extras RM-1B plugin harness extender for the uMonitor which greatly simplifies the wiring installation. The uMonitor is in new condition with no scratches and all installation material and manuals. The pictures below are of the actual unit for sale. The table below lists all of the items included. I have nearly $2800 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $2200 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle(at)matronics.com if you are interested. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder 1ea - RMI microMONITOR Assembled . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1299.00 $1299.00 1ea - Factory Upgrade of LCD (Fahrenheit Temp Display), . . . . Fiberoptic LED Backlight, Latest Firmware. . . . . .$ 399.00 $ 399.00 1ea - Manifold Pressure Sensor 10.0 to 59.0 InHg. . . . . . $ 68.00 $ 68.00 2ea - EGT/CHT Multiplex Switch 2 to 6 cylinders . . . . . . $ 60.00 $ 120.00 1ea - Fuel Flow sensor, FloScan 201B-6 - .6 to 60.0 GPH. . .$ 230.00 $ 230.00 1ea - Carb Temp Sensor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$ 55.00 $ 55.00 4ea - EGT Thermocouple - tubing clamp type . . . . . . . . .$ 65.00 $ 260.00 4ea - CHT Thermocouple - bayonet type. . . . . . . . . . . .$ 50.00 $ 200.00 1ea - RM-1B Harness Expander, Aircraft Extras. . . . . . . .$ 155.00 $ 155.00 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $2786.00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: For Sale - Skyforce Skymap IIIC - NEW - Latest Database
Dear Listers, I am selling a new-in-box Skyforce Skymap IIIC full color GPS moving map with Topo. The database and firmware were just upgraded 05/2008. Includes a Panel Mounting bracket, GPS Antenna, cigarette lighter adapter, carrying case, and all manuals. Brand new, never used. No scratches. The pictures below are of the actual unit. The LCD color display on the IIIC is extremely nice and very bright. Gives altitude readout. RS232 output. I have over $2500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $2200 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle(at)matronics.com if you are interested. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder 1ea - Skyforce Skymap IIIC w/ GPS and Americas Database. . .$2367.00 . .$2367.00 1ea - Panel Mount. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$98.00 . . .$98.00 1ea - Firmware and Database Update 5/8/2008. . . . . . . . . .$50.00 . . .$50.00 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $2515.00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: For Sale - RMI uEncoder - NEW - Assembled
Dear Listers, I am selling a new, never used, fully assembled RMI uEncoder. The uEncoder just had all of the latest hardware and software updates factory installed including the new high contrast LCD display supporting Fahrenheit temp readings AND the new LED fiberoptic backlight. The uEncoder displays airspeed, altitude, fpm, OAT, and outputs Mode C data for most transponders. The uEncoder is in new condition with no scratches and all installation material and manuals. The pictures below are of the actual unit for sale. The table below lists all of the items included. I have nearly $1500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $1100 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle(at)matronics.com if you are interested. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder 1ea - RMI microENCODER ASSEMBLED . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1179.00 . $1179.00 1ea - RMI Factory Upgrade of LCD (Fahrenheit Temp, US Miles), . . . . . . Fiberoptic LED Backlight, Latest Firmware . . . . . $ 315.00 . $ 315.00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1494.00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Gearleg fairings?
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: May 10, 2008
Jack the plane up so that the wheels are off the ground and the gear drift inward and see how they look. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182348#182348 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: May 11, 2008
Subject: Re: Gearleg fairings?
If it is not making it slower, it would be easier to install a trim tab on the rudder than make new intersect fairings. I guess I am just saying that because I am painting mine right now and I don't want to do any of this over after weeks of sanding! Kevin Shannon HR II Hey Fellas I've been flying my Harmon Rocket for a grand total of 5 hours now and all was going well until I put on the gearleg fairings and wheelpants. When I first flew it without the fibreglass bits she would pull to the left ever so slightly at full throttle and require very light right rudder to keep the ball centered. Now with the fairings and pants installed the ball is to the right about 3 ball widths and requires quite a lot of right rudder pressure to keep the ball centered.. I removed the wheelpants last night and flew it like that with no improvement, so I guess I have the gearleg fairings creating drag.Now my question is would it be the port (left) fairing creating the drag and the right one would be OK. or could they both be out. My theory is that they are mini airfoils and both could be creating pressure and trying to turn the ship around the center point. They look to be in line if you just eyeball them, and I was very careful (I thought) in aligning them with the airflow when installed, but the best laid plans and all that. I sure don't want to make another set of intersection fairings.Anyone have this problem? any suggested fixes? Thanks Chris F **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Gearleg fairings?
Date: May 11, 2008
3 ball widths is beyond reasonable in my book. Remember, this equates to drag whether you trim it with rudder trim tab or not. I would consider all that gas you will waste over the life of the airplane and really try to determine the cause. I had a similar yaw from the fairings but mine was half a ball so I added a trim tab. Good luck, Jim Stone HRII 95 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Gearleg fairings? If it is not making it slower, it would be easier to install a trim tab on the rudder than make new intersect fairings. I guess I am just saying that because I am painting mine right now and I don't want to do any of this over after weeks of sanding! Kevin Shannon HR II Hey Fellas I've been flying my Harmon Rocket for a grand total of 5 hours now and all was going well until I put on the gearleg fairings and wheelpants. When I first flew it without the fibreglass bits she would pull to the left ever so slightly at full throttle and require very light right rudder to keep the ball centered. Now with the fairings and pants installed the ball is to the right about 3 ball widths and requires quite a lot of right rudder pressure to keep the ball centered.. I removed the wheelpants last night and flew it like that with no improvement, so I guess I have the gearleg fairings creating drag.Now my question is would it be the port (left) fairing creating the drag and the right one would be OK. or could they both be out. My theory is that they are mini airfoils and both could be creating pressure and trying to turn the ship around the center point. They look to be in line if you just eyeball them, and I was very careful (I thought) in aligning them with the airflow when installed, but the best laid plans and all that. I sure don't want to make another set of intersection fairings.Anyone have this problem? any suggested fixes? Thanks Chris F ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Gearleg fairings?
Date: May 11, 2008
I'd say a three-balls width points to a serious rigging problem. Consider the amount of surface your rudder has to protrude into the airstream to produce that kind of yaw and you would appreciate the drag. If you add to that equation the arm of the rudder to the COG compared to the (much shorter) arm of the gear legs to the COG, it would illuminate the seriousness of the problem. I'd be surprised if it is the fairings but your account of the problem suggests that it is. Did anything else happen to the control surfaces since the installation? _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Gearleg fairings? 3 ball widths is beyond reasonable in my book. Remember, this equates to drag whether you trim it with rudder trim tab or not. I would consider all that gas you will waste over the life of the airplane and really try to determine the cause. I had a similar yaw from the fairings but mine was half a ball so I added a trim tab. Good luck, Jim Stone HRII 95 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Gearleg fairings? If it is not making it slower, it would be easier to install a trim tab on the rudder than make new intersect fairings. I guess I am just saying that because I am painting mine right now and I don't want to do any of this over after weeks of sanding! Kevin Shannon HR II Hey Fellas I've been flying my Harmon Rocket for a grand total of 5 hours now and all was going well until I put on the gearleg fairings and wheelpants. When I first flew it without the fibreglass bits she would pull to the left ever so slightly at full throttle and require very light right rudder to keep the ball centered. Now with the fairings and pants installed the ball is to the right about 3 ball widths and requires quite a lot of right rudder pressure to keep the ball centered.. I removed the wheelpants last night and flew it like that with no improvement, so I guess I have the gearleg fairings creating drag.Now my question is would it be the port (left) fairing creating the drag and the right one would be OK. or could they both be out. My theory is that they are mini airfoils and both could be creating pressure and trying to turn the ship around the center point. They look to be in line if you just eyeball them, and I was very careful (I thought) in aligning them with the airflow when installed, but the best laid plans and all that. I sure don't want to make another set of intersection fairings.Anyone have this problem? any suggested fixes? Thanks Chris F _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Gearleg fairings
Date: May 12, 2008
An update on the trim problem I am having with the gearleg fairings. I re rigged the port fairing, by digging out all the foam and refoaming top and bottom. I moved the gearleg fairing ,trailing edge outboard, by 3/16 of an inch at the top and an 1/8 at the bottom, now the ball is less than one width out at full throttle. It didn't take much change in the fairing to make a big difference in the trim.. Milt suggested I jack the plane up to take the weight off before setting the final angle, but I don't really have the facilities to get the legs hanging like that.. I did try to make the fairings teardrop shaped when I glassed the trailing edge together, and looking carefully at the final result they didn't hold a consistent shape top to bottom, so maybe its acting like an airfoil and not only causing drag but setting up a sideways pressure also. (Just a theory). Thanks for all the help, what an awesome aircraft! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Gearleg fairings
Date: May 12, 2008
Do you see a difference in speed with the fairings and wheel pants fitted? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Fordham Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 6:44 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Gearleg fairings An update on the trim problem I am having with the gearleg fairings. I re rigged the port fairing, by digging out all the foam and refoaming top and bottom. I moved the gearleg fairing ,trailing edge outboard, by 3/16 of an inch at the top and an 1/8 at the bottom, now the ball is less than one width out at full throttle. It didn't take much change in the fairing to make a big difference in the trim.. Milt suggested I jack the plane up to take the weight off before setting the final angle, but I don't really have the facilities to get the legs hanging like that.. I did try to make the fairings teardrop shaped when I glassed the trailing edge together, and looking carefully at the final result they didn't hold a consistent shape top to bottom, so maybe its acting like an airfoil and not only causing drag but setting up a sideways pressure also. (Just a theory). Thanks for all the help, what an awesome aircraft! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2008
From: <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Gearleg fairings, help or hinder ?
It's been more that 5 years ago what Gummibear & I flew a just completed HRII (N561FS) without paint, gear legs/ wheel pants. We put together the operational numbers for the HRII at that point in time. Later we installed the gear leg farings & wheel pants and ran another set of operational numbers. VERY much to our suprize, (we had heard & dismissed as so much "talk") a gain of 5 MPH in level speed and a decrease of the stall speed of 5 MPH too (55 to 50). After much conversation with area notables we believe that the fairings smooths the air flow for a speed increase & less turbulent air flow under the wings in a pre-stall configuration. We tired to get a true full power, clean stall with 30 degree nose high but quit passing thru 14,700. Someplace UP there the HRII will stall but without oxy we saw no good reason to push the issue. Besides N561FS is AOA equipted if we need indications above 15,000' KABONG >From: Chris Fordham <fconsult(at)telus.net> >Date: 2008/05/09 Fri AM 10:00:49 CDT >To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Rocket-List: Gearleg fairings? > >Hey Fellas > I've been flying my Harmon Rocket for a grand total of 5 hours now >and all was going well until I put on the gearleg fairings and wheelpants. >When I first flew it without the fibreglass bits she would pull to the left >ever so slightly at full throttle and require very light right rudder to >keep the ball centered. > Now with the fairings and pants installed the ball is to the right about 3 >ball widths and requires quite a lot of right rudder pressure to keep the >ball centered.. I removed the wheelpants last night and flew it like that >with no improvement, so I guess I have the gearleg fairings creating >drag.Now my question is would it be the port (left) fairing creating the >drag and the right one would be OK. or could they both be out. My theory is >that they are mini airfoils and both could be creating pressure and trying >to turn the ship around the center point. They look to be in line if you >just eyeball them, and I was very careful (I thought) in aligning them with >the airflow when installed, but the best laid plans and all that. I sure >don't want to make another set of intersection fairings.Anyone have this >problem? any suggested fixes? > > > Thanks > > Chris F > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2008
From: rocketman <bluebird266(at)dslextreme.com>
Subject: : Gearleg fairings alinement method
At 06:44 AM 5/12/2008, you wrote: > > >If rocket rolls to left do two very hard aileron rolls to the right! if rocket rolls to the right do two very hard aileron rolls to the left Work fine for me 266HP 470 HRs PS do this with empty rear seat or may have take a whower and cleanup the airplane. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
Date: May 13, 2008
Subject: (no subject)
Ha guys don't forget to mark your calendar June 7, EAA chapter 71 Bakersfield fly-in John Harmon D & J Harmon Co., Inc. 2201 Coy Avenue Bakersfield, CA 93307 661-396-3570 661-396-3574 FAX web: _www.harmonso2generators.com_ (http://www.harmonso2generators.com/) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 14, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fly-in
Thanks John... Rob Ray 760RF HR2 --- On Tue, 5/13/08, Hr2pilot(at)aol.com wrote: From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com <Hr2pilot(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: (no subject) Date: Tuesday, May 13, 2008, 12:25 PM Ha guys don't forget to mark your calendar June 7, EAA chapter 71 Bakersfield fly-in John Harmon D & J Harmon Co., Inc. 2201 Coy Avenue Bakersfield, CA 93307 661-396-3570 661-396-3574 FAX web: www.harmonso2generators.com Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Cockpit cooling
Date: May 21, 2008
Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2008
From: rocketman <bluebird266(at)dslextreme.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit cooling
At 07:31 PM 5/21/2008, you wrote: Bakersfield is a dry HEAT!! Ha ha! You have that muggy heat! Check with 2nelson(at)prodigy.net Greg nelson. He has a nice set up that I was going to do but never did Harry >Hey Guys, >My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the >upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil >cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat >muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm >on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the >right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the >rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave >the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" >hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and >pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, >has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from >the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an >effort to catch the air before it warms up. >My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that >it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield >desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as >similar to John's as I think. > >TIA, >Jim Stone > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2008
From: "Fred LaForge" <fred.laforge(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Cockpit cooling
Jim, I tried air off the back of the engine plenum on my RV-4,,,, Too warm. I would recomend a NACA vent. and thick insulation on firewall and under your feet. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stone To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:31 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "H.Ivan Haecker" <baremetl(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit cooling
Date: May 21, 2008
Jim, I had a similar set up on my rv-4. The air was taken off the rear baffle and run into the cockpit. It was ok until it got hot in the summertime. It was really bad when I slowed down in the pattern.I changed the set up and extended the tube forward across the top of the crankcase to the left opening in the front of the cowl. That was much better. I now measure only a 3-4 degree increase in temperature compared to the rear vent outlet which comes from under the wing. I terminated the scat tube with an aluminum end to dress it up visually up front. With a 540 engine instead of a 320 the heat picked up may be more especially due to the longer length. I plan to do the same on my rocket if I ever can finish it.... I can get pictures if you need them. Ivan Haecker rv-4 1455hrs. S. Cen. TX ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stone To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2008
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: Cockpit cooling
Jim I pick up my pilot air from a hole in the leading edge. There is room to get an opening in the faring between the wing and the fuselage. The air goes through a hole in the fuse and the hose then goes up the back of the #2 bulkhead. There is lots of cool fresh air from this location. Tom Martin _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: May 21, 2008 10:31 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Rocket-List "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. 12:00 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit cooling
Date: May 22, 2008
Hey Ivan, I think your plan may be the easiest to try first. If pics are not to difficult, please send me a few. In particular, I would like to see the scoop or forward end of the scat tube and how it sits in the intake. Thanks for your help, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: H.Ivan Haecker To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Jim, I had a similar set up on my rv-4. The air was taken off the rear baffle and run into the cockpit. It was ok until it got hot in the summertime. It was really bad when I slowed down in the pattern.I changed the set up and extended the tube forward across the top of the crankcase to the left opening in the front of the cowl. That was much better. I now measure only a 3-4 degree increase in temperature compared to the rear vent outlet which comes from under the wing. I terminated the scat tube with an aluminum end to dress it up visually up front. With a 540 engine instead of a 320 the heat picked up may be more especially due to the longer length. I plan to do the same on my rocket if I ever can finish it.... I can get pictures if you need them. Ivan Haecker rv-4 1455hrs. S. Cen. TX ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stone To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Cockpit cooling
My very early (96') HR2 was set up with rear engine baffle cockpit fresh air when I bought it. For the SE USA, it was completely inadequate. I had an AE friend look over the fuselage sides and located the best high pressure area for Vans style NACA ducts and installed one on either side of the Fuselage with Hysol structural epoxy(no rivets). They are ducted inside via 2" SCAT to large aluminum eyeball vents from Acft Spruce. I also vented the rear baggage compartment into the aft fuselage by cutting 4-3" holes in the rear baggage access door and putting screen door screen behind the holes. "You can't get air in without getting it out". Now at cruise speeds the airflow through the vents will nearly "peel paint". I like it! Rob Ray HR2 --- On Thu, 5/22/08, Tom Martin wrote: From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Date: Thursday, May 22, 2008, 6:38 AM Jim I pick up my pilot air from a hole in the leading edge. There is room to get an opening in the faring between the wing and the fuselage. The air goes through a hole in the fuse and the hose then goes up the back of the #2 bulkhead. There is lots of cool fresh air from this location. Tom Martin From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: May 21, 2008 10:31 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville . Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone Checked by AVG. Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "H.Ivan Haecker" <baremetl(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: Cockpit Cooling
Date: May 22, 2008
Jim, Here is a picture that I have readily available. I'm not sure how to send to the list, so if the picture doesn't come through, send me your e-mail address and I can send it directly to you. If you need more detail, I can take more pictures this weekend. Ivan Haecker ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit Cooling
Date: May 22, 2008
I got the pic, thanks Ivan. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: H.Ivan Haecker To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:30 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit Cooling Jim, Here is a picture that I have readily available. I'm not sure how to send to the list, so if the picture doesn't come through, send me your e-mail address and I can send it directly to you. If you need more detail, I can take more pictures this weekend. Ivan Haecker ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit cooling
Date: May 24, 2008
Tom, So the air comes in a hole, does the air flow into a duct at the hole or after it comes thru the side of the fuselage? Just trying to picture it. I like this idea more than installing NACAs on my new paint. Do you have a pic or two? Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martin To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:38 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Jim I pick up my pilot air from a hole in the leading edge. There is room to get an opening in the faring between the wing and the fuselage. The air goes through a hole in the fuse and the hose then goes up the back of the #2 bulkhead. There is lots of cool fresh air from this location. Tom Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: May 21, 2008 10:31 PM To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone Checked by AVG. Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/24/08
Date: May 25, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Jim, I have pics of 2 wing root vent installations on my website, one is mine. I found that the air volume is fine, but the air is just as hot as what comes in my NACA vents.... about 10 degrees hotter than what comes from under the wing through that NACA vent. I tried sealing the cowl seams to see if air leaked through them. No effect. Still hot. My opinion is that heated air is getting pulled out of the cooling inlets by those fat prop blades, or is otherwise simply spilling back out. All I know is that in the midwest heat and humidity, the cockpit cooling air taken from anywhere on my fuselage is too hot! On a Rocket that I am working on now I have added another NACA scoop under the other wing and plan to route the air forward, possibly by running it behind the fuel tank or another route. Haven't decided yet. But unless something convinces me otherwise, there will be no fuselage inlets for cabin air. Vince . 08:04 PM - Re: Cockpit cooling (Jim Stone) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Tom, So the air comes in a hole, does the air flow into a duct at the hole or after it comes thru the side of the fuselage? Just trying to picture it. I like this idea more than installing NACAs on my new paint. Do you have a pic or two? Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martin To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:38 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Jim I pick up my pilot air from a hole in the leading edge. There is room to get an opening in the faring between the wing and the fuselage. The air goes through a hole in the fuse and the hose then goes up the back of the #2 bulkhead. There is lots of cool fresh air from this location. Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/24/08
--- On Sun, 5/25/08, Frazier, Vincent A wrote: > From: Frazier, Vincent A <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> > Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/24/08 > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, May 25, 2008, 8:55 AM > Jim, > > I have pics of 2 wing root vent installations on my > website, one is mine. I found that the air volume is fine, > but the air is just as hot as what comes in my NACA > vents.... about 10 degrees hotter than what comes from > under the wing through that NACA vent. > > I tried sealing the cowl seams to see if air leaked through > them. No effect. Still hot. My opinion is that heated air > is getting pulled out of the cooling inlets by those fat > prop blades, or is otherwise simply spilling back out. All > I know is that in the midwest heat and humidity, the cockpit > cooling air taken from anywhere on my fuselage is too hot! > > On a Rocket that I am working on now I have added another > NACA scoop under the other wing and plan to route the air > forward, possibly by running it behind the fuel tank or > another route. Haven't decided yet. But unless > something convinces me otherwise, there will be no fuselage > inlets for cabin air. > > Vince > > > > > > > . 08:04 PM - Re: Cockpit cooling (Jim Stone) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling > > Tom, > So the air comes in a hole, does the air flow into a duct > at the hole or > after it comes thru the side of the fuselage? Just trying > to picture > it. I like this idea more than installing NACAs on my new > paint. Do > you have a pic or two? > Thanks, > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Martin > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:38 AM > Subject: RE: jim, I haven't had Vinces problem on my HR2. My AE buddy stressed location was critical in getting large vlumes of cool air, which I do. RR > > Jim > > I pick up my pilot air from a hole in the > leading edge. > There is room to get an opening in the faring between the > wing and the > fuselage. The air goes through a hole in the fuse and the > hose then > goes up the back of the #2 bulkhead. There is lots of cool > fresh air > from this location. > > > > Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: cockpit cooling
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP jim, I haven't had Vinces problem on my HR2. My AE buddy stressed location was critical in getting large volumes of cool air, which I do. RR SNIP Rob and others, I certainly don't dispute that the wingroot vents get plenty of air. They do. So do the NACA vents on the fuselage sides. However, both of those locations are 10+ degrees F hotter than the NACA scoop under the wing. 10 degrees doesn't sound like much, but when it's already 85F and 90% humidity, it is miserable. Having just returned from vacation and a cross country drive from Los Angeles to Indiana, via Death Valley where it was a comfortable 110F and <10% humidity, I think I can safely assume that it is the humidity that makes Indiana and Kentucky uncomfortable compared to anywhere in the western U.S. or Canada. It gets blazing hot out west, but without the humidity, it's nowhere near as uncomfortable as it gets here. My whole point here is that the underwing NACA scoops are measurably cooler... so why not enjoy the cooler air instead of the hot fuselage air if you're making a change or building anew. It's a mistake that I won't make again! Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: cockpit cooling
Date: May 27, 2008
I'm not flying yet but have put some thought into this. I have a NACA duct on the bottom of both wings; one for the pilot and one for the PAX (a la RV-8). One of my decision factors is the sad case of another pilot in the northwest that lost his life due to a firewall forward fire. I have heard the evidence showed he had burns on his left leg from the standard RV-8 NACA duct inlet. My option is to have no air inlets aft of the cowl. Besides, as Vince has said "why not enjoy the cool air from the wing NACA ducts anyway?" Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket under construction ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: cockpit cooling
Jim/Vince, No arguments here, I live in Central FL where humidity is manufactured and exported! I inspected an RV4 for a friend recently that had the under wing NACA ducts (1 each side) for cockpit cooling. The right side went to a rear eyeball vent in the stickwell, the front had a unique snorkel duct that pointed forward from just aft of the main spar. The airflow inflight was excellent, equal to or better than my setup and even worked on the ground. Also unique was his Grob Sailplane/Extra 300 canopy sliding vent in the front cockpit ala Tony Bingelis' RV3. It also worked very well. Very Cool :) RR --- On Mon, 5/26/08, Frazier, Vincent A wrote: From: Frazier, Vincent A <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> Subject: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling Date: Monday, May 26, 2008, 8:51 PM Jim, I haven't had Vinces problem on my HR2. My AE buddy stressed location was critical in getting large volumes of cool air, which I do. RR Rob and others, I certainly don't dispute that the wingroot vents get plenty of air. They do. So do the NACA vents on the fuselage sides. However, both of those locations are 10+ degrees F hotter than the NACA scoop under the wing. 10 degrees doesn't sound like much, but when it's already 85F and 90% humidity, it is miserable. Having just returned from vacation and a cross country drive from Los Angeles to Indiana, via Death Valley where it was a comfortable 110F and <10% humidity, I think I can safely assume that it is the humidity that makes Indiana and Kentucky uncomfortable compared to anywhere in the western U.S. or Canada. It gets blazing hot out west, but without the humidity, it's nowhere near as uncomfortable as it gets here. My whole point here is that the underwing NACA scoops are measurably cooler... so why not enjoy the cooler air instead of the hot fuselage air if you're making a change or building anew. It's a mistake that I won't make again! Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: cockpit cooling
Date: May 27, 2008
Hey Rob, Doesn't that snorkel pick up exhaust fumes? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Ray" <smokyray(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling > > Jim/Vince, > > No arguments here, I live in Central FL where humidity is manufactured and > exported! I inspected an RV4 for a friend recently that had the under wing > NACA ducts (1 each side) for cockpit cooling. The right side went to a > rear eyeball vent in the stickwell, the front had a unique snorkel duct > that pointed forward from just aft of the main spar. > The airflow inflight was excellent, equal to or better than my setup and > even worked on the ground. Also unique was his Grob Sailplane/Extra 300 > canopy sliding vent in the front cockpit ala Tony Bingelis' RV3. It also > worked very well. > > Very Cool :) > > RR > > --- On Mon, 5/26/08, Frazier, Vincent A wrote: > From: Frazier, Vincent A <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> > Subject: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, May 26, 2008, 8:51 PM > > Jim, I haven't had Vinces problem on my HR2. My AE buddy stressed > location was > critical in getting large volumes of cool air, which I do. > RR > > Rob and others, > > I certainly don't dispute that the wingroot vents get plenty of air. They > do. So do the NACA vents on the fuselage sides. However, both of those > locations are 10+ degrees F hotter than the NACA scoop under the wing. 10 > degrees doesn't sound like much, but when it's already 85F and 90% > humidity, it is miserable. > > Having just returned from vacation and a cross country drive from Los > Angeles > to Indiana, via Death Valley where it was a comfortable 110F and <10% > humidity, I think I can safely assume that it is the humidity that makes > Indiana and Kentucky uncomfortable compared to anywhere in the western > U.S. or > Canada. It gets blazing hot out west, but without the humidity, it's > nowhere near as uncomfortable as it gets here. > > My whole point here is that the underwing NACA scoops are measurably > cooler... > so why not enjoy the cooler air instead of the hot fuselage air if you're > making a change or building anew. It's a mistake that I won't make > again! > > Vince > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall(at)gotsky.com>
Subject: Rear rudder pedals
Date: May 28, 2008
Hello Andrew, I am the fellow with that great rocket in that valley northwest of Reno who has the nifty fold down rear pedals, Will be happy to send you pics, if your handy with a torch they can be built in a few hours. Contact me off list at rtmarshall(at)gotsky.com. If you know of anyone looking for a great rocket, the ship is up for sale. Considering the dollar weakness it would be a great deal even with the off shore shipping. See www.Barnstormers.com look under Harmon Rocket for details. Bob Marshall ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: cockpit air
Date: May 28, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
I emailed Mark and John to ask about putting a 2" hole in the spar web to the right of the stick. They both said that the hole would be OK structurally but that there are several caveats. You can't hit the spar spreader bars, the flange strips, obviously can't put it in line with the floor ribs, and can't interfere with the aileron pushtube. I figure that I'd be building a custom duct out of fiberglass somehow. So, has anyone actually run ductwork up through the spar in this manner? We'd all like to hear a report and see photos if possible. thx, Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: cockpit air
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: May 28, 2008
While not the same as you requested, its in the same idea ballpark. Here is how I got rear heat in the Super 8. http://mstewart.net/super8/rearheat/index.htm And while it says "This has neither been tested nor recommended. " That s information. I have 600 hours on her now. is has neither been tested no r recommended. Mike "Frazier, Vincent A" Sent by: cc owner-rocket-list -server@matronics Subj ect .com Rocket-List: cockpit air 05/28/2008 09:31 AM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com du> I emailed Mark and John to ask about putting a 2" hole in the spar web to the right of the stick. They both said that the hole would be OK structurally but that there are several caveats. You can't hit the spa r spreader bars, the flange strips, obviously can't put it in line with the floor ribs, and can't interfere with the aileron pushtube. I figur e that I'd be building a custom duct out of fiberglass somehow. So, has anyone actually run ductwork up through the spar in this manner ? We'd all like to hear a report and see photos if possible. thx, Vince ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: cockpit cooling
Jim, The RV4's under wing NACA ducts were about mid-fuel tank 6" behind the spar. Both SCAT tubes entered the fuselage under the floorboard aft of the spar. For front cockpit air he simply built a periscope/snorkel out of the floorboard with an eyeball vent on the end of it(slightly in the way for rear seat pax). You could point it forward or aft, he had it forward. The rear duct had an eyeball vent in the rear stickwell. My HR2's fuselage NACA ducts work very well with no warm air issues although they are AOA critical. At approach airspeeds they are almost ineffective. At cruise however, Hurricane warnings are in effect:) Personally, I think the underwing vents are a great idea and hide any holes under the bottom, free from rain, and detracting from the beauty of the HR2. Mine however were easiest for me on an already flying airplane... Ronnie said he could install them for you in one day, need a FL vacation? RR --- On Tue, 5/27/08, Jim Stone wrote: > From: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2008, 9:33 PM > > > Hey Rob, > Doesn't that snorkel pick up exhaust fumes? > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Ray" <smokyray(at)yahoo.com> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling > > > > > > > Jim/Vince, > > > > No arguments here, I live in Central FL where humidity > is manufactured and > > exported! I inspected an RV4 for a friend recently > that had the under wing > > NACA ducts (1 each side) for cockpit cooling. The > right side went to a > > rear eyeball vent in the stickwell, the front had a > unique snorkel duct > > that pointed forward from just aft of the main spar. > > The airflow inflight was excellent, equal to or better > than my setup and > > even worked on the ground. Also unique was his Grob > Sailplane/Extra 300 > > canopy sliding vent in the front cockpit ala Tony > Bingelis' RV3. It also > > worked very well. > > > > Very Cool :) > > > > RR > > > > --- On Mon, 5/26/08, Frazier, Vincent A > wrote: > > From: Frazier, Vincent A <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> > > Subject: Rocket-List: cockpit cooling > > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Monday, May 26, 2008, 8:51 PM > > > > Jim, I haven't had Vinces problem on my HR2. My AE > buddy stressed > > location was > > critical in getting large volumes of cool air, which I > do. > > RR > > > > Rob and others, > > > > I certainly don't dispute that the wingroot vents > get plenty of air. They > > do. So do the NACA vents on the fuselage sides. > However, both of those > > locations are 10+ degrees F hotter than the NACA scoop > under the wing. 10 > > degrees doesn't sound like much, but when it's > already 85F and 90% > > humidity, it is miserable. > > > > Having just returned from vacation and a cross country > drive from Los > > Angeles > > to Indiana, via Death Valley where it was a > comfortable 110F and <10% > > humidity, I think I can safely assume that it is the > humidity that makes > > Indiana and Kentucky uncomfortable compared to > anywhere in the western > > U.S. or > > Canada. It gets blazing hot out west, but without the > humidity, it's > > nowhere near as uncomfortable as it gets here. > > > > My whole point here is that the underwing NACA scoops > are measurably > > cooler... > > so why not enjoy the cooler air instead of the hot > fuselage air if you're > > making a change or building anew. It's a mistake > that I won't make > > again! > > > > Vince > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: Performance Engines; progress report
Date: May 28, 2008
Ron Munson at Performance Engines committed to sending me an email outlining our discussed agreement and repaying my deposit in three payments spaced two weeks apart. I never received the email; and did receive the first payment as agreed. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wrong posting
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
My apologies, everyone - I replied to emails from Nico and Ivan, and thought I was emailing them off-list. Didn't realise it would post list-wide. I'll be more careful in future. & thanks to all those who have emailed me info about rear rudder pedals in Rockets! Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:00 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Cockpit cooling Hey Guys, My cockpit air comes from a two inch scat going from a hole in the upper rear baffle on the left/center side, same side as my oil cooler, and then goes to a firewall mixer valve which allows heat muff air to be mixed with it. My complaint is, this air is too warm on a day that is 75 degrees or warmer. I have a Naca vent under the right wing that brings in cool outside air but it goes only to the rear seater. I would like to change the front seat set up and leave the rear seat the way it is. My question is, has anyone put a 2" hole in the forward horizontal baffle, in front of number 2 cyl and pulled the air down and aft to the mixer valve on the firewall? Or, has anyone just tied a scat hose along the top of the engine from the aft baffle to the cowl opening in front of number 2 cyl. in an effort to catch the air before it warms up. My setup is similar to John Harmon's, and he told me years ago that it works fine for him, so I assumed if it works in the Bakersfield desert, it will work in Louisville. Perhaps my setup is not as similar to John's as I think. TIA, Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: rear seat rudder pedals
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Guys, This is where you get the Jim Wining's designed rudder pedals. They are the best and easiest design, hands down, no question. And inexpensive too. Vince http://www.airkitllc.com/ Airkit LLC 2985 S. 300 E. Danville, IN 46122 Phone: (317)745-0656 Fax: (317)718-7236 Email:airkitllc(at)yahoo.com http://www.airkitllc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CHT's and fuel flows
From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2008
New Rocket owner here and looking for some guidance. The plane io-540-c4b5 Bendix rsa 500 hrs. Previous owner built it and battle high cht's since new. He just redid top end at 500 hrs smoh due to low compression. The baffling looks perfect and it's obvious he's tried everything to get the temps down, cowl flaps, louvers, silicone, etc. I'm getting 420+ cht's on an easy climb out and it's hard to get them down until at altitude for a while. Even then I'm 380+. On takeoff I'm showing flow at around 23gph. At 24sq. showing between 17 adn 22gph. All the above up to 3000msl and oat around 75F. A lycoming guru said my takeoff flow was 6gph low so I had the rsa rebuilt and it came back with a report of two bad nozzles and erratic flows. After putting it back on I'm getting almost identical flow readings. I don't have a service manual for this engine. I have the EIS monitoring system and I can't figure out which cht reading on the screen corresponds to which cylinder. So can't tell you which is hottest but most are up there. Also, my manifold pressure seems to be an inch low w/o ram air. Each tank has a screen but I've tried both tanks and flows are same. Anyone have any ideas of what to check next? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186440#186440 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
Date: Jun 06, 2008
I had similar problems. What is your compression ratio. What is your ignition setup. Jim Stone HRII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:32 PM Subject: Rocket-List: CHT's and fuel flows > > New Rocket owner here and looking for some guidance. > > The plane > io-540-c4b5 Bendix rsa > 500 hrs. > > Previous owner built it and battle high cht's since new. He just redid top > end at 500 hrs smoh due to low compression. The baffling looks perfect and > it's obvious he's tried everything to get the temps down, cowl flaps, > louvers, silicone, etc. > > I'm getting 420+ cht's on an easy climb out and it's hard to get them down > until at altitude for a while. Even then I'm 380+. > > On takeoff I'm showing flow at around 23gph. At 24sq. showing between 17 > adn 22gph. All the above up to 3000msl and oat around 75F. > > A lycoming guru said my takeoff flow was 6gph low so I had the rsa rebuilt > and it came back with a report of two bad nozzles and erratic flows. After > putting it back on I'm getting almost identical flow readings. I don't > have a service manual for this engine. > > I have the EIS monitoring system and I can't figure out which cht reading > on the screen corresponds to which cylinder. So can't tell you which is > hottest but most are up there. > > Also, my manifold pressure seems to be an inch low w/o ram air. > > Each tank has a screen but I've tried both tanks and flows are same. > > Anyone have any ideas of what to check next? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186440#186440 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
I recently had unexpected high cht's and it turned out to be very advan ced timing. Somehow my mag went from 25 to 40. AHH! Check timing. Mike "Wiley" Sent by: To owner-rocket-list rocket-list(at)matronics.com -server@matronics cc .com Subj ect Rocket-List: CHT's and fuel flow s 06/05/2008 10:32 PM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com New Rocket owner here and looking for some guidance. The plane io-540-c4b5 Bendix rsa 500 hrs. Previous owner built it and battle high cht's since new. He just redid top end at 500 hrs smoh due to low compression. The baffling looks perfect and it's obvious he's tried everything to get the temps down, cowl flaps, louvers, silicone, etc. I'm getting 420+ cht's on an easy climb out and it's hard to get them d own until at altitude for a while. Even then I'm 380+. On takeoff I'm showing flow at around 23gph. At 24sq. showing between 17 adn 22gph. All the above up to 3000msl and oat around 75F. A lycoming guru said my takeoff flow was 6gph low so I had the rsa rebu ilt and it came back with a report of two bad nozzles and erratic flows. Af ter putting it back on I'm getting almost identical flow readings. I don't have a service manual for this engine. I have the EIS monitoring system and I can't figure out which cht readi ng on the screen corresponds to which cylinder. So can't tell you which is hottest but most are up there. Also, my manifold pressure seems to be an inch low w/o ram air. Each tank has a screen but I've tried both tanks and flows are same. Anyone have any ideas of what to check next? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186440#186440 ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: CHT's and fuel flows
Date: Jun 06, 2008
This might sound real lame, but how sure are you that your cht probes are not faulty or the gauges properly calibrated ? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wiley Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: Rocket-List: CHT's and fuel flows New Rocket owner here and looking for some guidance. The plane io-540-c4b5 Bendix rsa 500 hrs. Previous owner built it and battle high cht's since new. He just redid top end at 500 hrs smoh due to low compression. The baffling looks perfect and it's obvious he's tried everything to get the temps down, cowl flaps, louvers, silicone, etc. I'm getting 420+ cht's on an easy climb out and it's hard to get them down until at altitude for a while. Even then I'm 380+. On takeoff I'm showing flow at around 23gph. At 24sq. showing between 17 adn 22gph. All the above up to 3000msl and oat around 75F. A lycoming guru said my takeoff flow was 6gph low so I had the rsa rebuilt and it came back with a report of two bad nozzles and erratic flows. After putting it back on I'm getting almost identical flow readings. I don't have a service manual for this engine. I have the EIS monitoring system and I can't figure out which cht reading on the screen corresponds to which cylinder. So can't tell you which is hottest but most are up there. Also, my manifold pressure seems to be an inch low w/o ram air. Each tank has a screen but I've tried both tanks and flows are same. Anyone have any ideas of what to check next? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186440#186440 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
I'm not sure what compression I have. Data plate says 260hp if that tells you. Has Slicks. Initially he put one slick w/one elect but removed the elect. thinking it might be part of problem. Kahuna, I read your thread on Vans about your timing issue. It's really amazing that without an engine monitor you may miss that whole issue until annual. One thing previous owner mentioned this morning is the area at the bottom of the air inlet where the baffling (rubber) goes under the front/bottom of the cowl inlet lip. He thinks maybe air is going down through there and pressurizing the lower cowl. Hard to believe since I have a really big opening with the cowl flaps and louvers. I guess I'll try sealing that. What kind of flows are you guys getting on takeoff? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186491#186491 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Not lame at all. We were just discussing doing that. Previous owner did check them a while ago when troubleshooting the problem but you never know. Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186494#186494 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Nuffer, Chuck" <CNuffer(at)it21.com>
Check for a smooth ramp transition from the air inlets to the top of the plenum. Make sure the ramp on the top of the air inlet is formed properly. We haven't done ours yet, but this seems to be an important area with all the rocketeers. Chuck www.f1rocket.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wiley Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: CHT's and fuel flows Not lame at all. We were just discussing doing that. Previous owner did check them a while ago when troubleshooting the problem but you never know. Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186494#186494 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
a c4b5 is 8.5:1 t.o FF for me is 25. sea level IF your mixture level is operating at expected, FF is not your problem. Meaning, leaning leans, richer riches and other sensors follow expectat ions when you do that. "Wiley" Sent by: To owner-rocket-list rocket-list(at)matronics.com -server@matronics cc .com Subj ect Rocket-List: Re: CHT's and fuel 06/06/2008 10:32 flows AM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com I'm not sure what compression I have. Data plate says 260hp if that tel ls you. Has Slicks. Initially he put one slick w/one elect but removed the elec t. thinking it might be part of problem. Kahuna, I read your thread on Vans about your timing issue. It's really amazing that without an engine monitor you may miss that whole issue un til annual. One thing previous owner mentioned this morning is the area at the bott om of the air inlet where the baffling (rubber) goes under the front/botto m of the cowl inlet lip. He thinks maybe air is going down through there and pressurizing the lower cowl. Hard to believe since I have a really big opening with the cowl flaps and louvers. I guess I'll try sealing that. What kind of flows are you guys getting on takeoff? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186491#186491 ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: hot engine
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Wiley, After ruling out mechanical problems, such as timing: Look for these things. http://www.vincesrocket.com/Engine%20and%20Prop.htm To determine which cylinder is which on your EIS, simply pull a CHT probe from its socket and hold a lighter under it for a few seconds to heat it up. Easy to see on the display and the engine doens't need to be running. After that, seal up any and all air leaks and go fly. If it's still hot, maybe it's time to consider the cowling inlets and outlets, cylinder baffles, etc. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Subscriptions
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Matt, I have been a subscriber to the Commander and Rocket lists for years, but I see that in the BBS Forum Interface I show up as a Guest. Is that supposed to be like that? Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Wiley, My hottest cylinder was 450 heading to redline the other day, I changed my timing on my Electroair ignition from 23 deg to 21 deg. Now my hottest is 375, the #2 cyl, the rest are cooler by 40-50 deg. I have 10 to 1s, so your mileage may vary. Good Luck, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:32 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: CHT's and fuel flows > > I'm not sure what compression I have. Data plate says 260hp if that tells > you. > > Has Slicks. Initially he put one slick w/one elect but removed the elect. > thinking it might be part of problem. > > Kahuna, I read your thread on Vans about your timing issue. It's really > amazing that without an engine monitor you may miss that whole issue until > annual. > > One thing previous owner mentioned this morning is the area at the bottom > of the air inlet where the baffling (rubber) goes under the front/bottom > of the cowl inlet lip. He thinks maybe air is going down through there and > pressurizing the lower cowl. Hard to believe since I have a really big > opening with the cowl flaps and louvers. I guess I'll try sealing that. > > What kind of flows are you guys getting on takeoff? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186491#186491 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: Brian Dal Porto <bdalporto(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
Wiley, do you have bayonet probes or the spark plug gasket type. I under st and the the =0ACHT read higher under the spark plug. So if your reading it -under your-spark plugs-your =0ACHT's might not be that high as compa ired to the Lycoming Spec. The Lycoming spec is for the =0Abayonet location . John Deakin wrote a good artical about Leaning with CHT. See http://www.a vweb.com/news/pelican/pelicans_perch_84_mixture_cht_194816-1.html=0ABrian =0AMostly a Lurker=0AWant a be=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro m: Wiley =0ATo: rocket-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, Ju ne 6, 2008 7:45:02 AM=0ASubject: Rocket-List: Re: CHT's and fuel flows=0A at all. We were just discussing doing that. Previous owner did check them =0Aa while ago when troubleshooting the problem but you never know. =0A=0AT hanks.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matron ===================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
I'm told that a good formula for the fuel needed on takeoff (@ sea level, standard day) = .55 lb/hp/hour. So: *GPH HP * 22 240.0 23 250.9 24 261.8 25 272.7 26 283.6 27 294.5 28 305.5 29 316.4 30 327.3 If you are making 280 hp, you should be seeing something like 26 gph on takeoff. Read Deakins on leaning in AvWeb. He is a wealth of information. Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "capmrp" <capmrp(at)cfu.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/06/08
Date: Jun 07, 2008
A friend had the same problem and closer inspection revealed that the full rich position of Mixture Control was not producing full rich at the engine. Upon re-rigging, CHT's came down to normal. mp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: <psiegel(at)fuse.net>
Subject: CHT's and Fuel Flows
On one of my early cross country flights, I had to pull back the rpm's a bit when I noticed one of the CHT's was getting close to my personal upper limit of 400'. Back home after pulling the cowl and plenum, I noticed that some of the paint on the cylinder heads had flaked partially blocking air flow, particularly on the hot cylinder head. I took great care to completely clean out all the cooling fins of any paint flakes or casting flash and I was amazed to see a dramatic drop in the formerly hot CHT! I am also amazed at how operating lean of peak in economy cruise ( I NEVER run LOP at high power settings) drops CHT's! Bart did a nice job right from his shop on my fuel flows to each cylinder...I sent my data to GAMI and they responded that my numbers were so close with the stock injectors that there was nothing they could do for me! A good rule of thumb with the IO-540's is at full power, take your fuel flow in gph and multiply by 10 (add a zero at the end of the fuel flow) and that will give you a pretty good idea of the horsepower you are getting. So depending on compression ratio, it is normal to see takeoff fuel flows at sea level in the 26 to 29 gph range. Paul Siegel Evo N4XU ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jun 07, 2008
First thing is make sure your guage is calibrated and reading correctly. You can drop the sensors in boiling water and they should read close to 212 deg F or drop them in a frydaddy filled with cooking oil if you can find a good thermometer that will read in that range. You should be able to adjust the fry daddy from ambient temp to CHT operating temps. I fought High CHTs for the first 6 months in my F1. Checked timing and CHT guage that wasn't the problem. Finally put louvers in the cowl bottom and that solved the problem. Now I rarely see CHTs above 380. My TO fuel flow (260HP) is same as Gummos. at cruise WOT and 2100 RPM FF is 13.3 GPH (above 10,000') If I go LOP FF drops to 10.6 GPH at same settings and altitude and I lose about 5 KTS TAS. CHTs in the 340-360 range. Louver install link here http://www.bearcataviation.com/album_frame.asp?menuID=6 -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186654#186654 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT's and fuel flows
From: "Wiley" <rdone(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 07, 2008
Great info from everyone, thanks. That avweb article is really educational. I played around with the rubber bafflle at the lower entrance to the inlet and found my chts went straigth to 424 and didn't want to come down. I put them back in original position and it went to 410 but came down with lower power settings quickly to 385 (21sq) I'm thinking this might hold the answer. I'm thinking of reworking the inlets to get the flow smoother and not letting any air escape to the bottom of cowl. Anyone going to the Golden West Airshow Sunday? Hoping there is a rocket or two there to get some ideas. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186666#186666 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows
I have a 13 year old HR2 with the stock Harmon cowling and a LyCon flowed 10.4:1 comp engine. Summer temps reached 400 CHT in extended climbs with oilreaching 245.Cruise was 350-380 and 210 oil. I have read thatcowling outlet area should slightly exceed inlet area by 10%. I measured my HR2's cowling and trimmed 6 inches off the bottom lip of the cowl.Now my CHT's at altitude running at peak range between310 and 348 with 180-190 oil temp. I have experimented with LOP and see 288-315 with oil at 170. During extended climbs in 90+ degree FL weather I never exceed 380 CHT (oil has reached 230 butquickly cools to below 190 when level). Lycon frowns on LOP operations for the 10.4:1 comp engines, but it cools all temps another 20 degrees with a 5% FF reduction. I have found even with my RV4 and 2 other Rockets I have helped with that cowling exit area needs to be opened up. My Dos Centavos... Rob Ray --- On Sat, 6/7/08, psiegel(at)fuse.net wrote: From: psiegel(at)fuse.net <psiegel(at)fuse.net> Subject: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 4:14 AM On one of my early cross country flights, I had to pull back the rpm's a bit when I noticed one of the CHT's was getting close to my personal upper limit of 400'. Back home after pulling the cowl and plenum, I noticed that some of the paint on the cylinder heads had flaked partially blocking air flow, particularly on the hot cylinder head. I took great care to completely clean out all the cooling fins of any paint flakes or casting flash and I was amazed to see a dramatic drop in the formerly hot CHT! I am also amazed at how operating lean of peak in economy cruise ( I NEVER run LOP at high power settings) drops CHT's! Bart did a nice job right from his shop on my fuel flows to each cylinder...I sent my data to GAMI and they responded that my numbers were so close with the stock injectors that there was nothing they could do for me! A good rule of thumb with the IO-540's is at full power, take your fuel flow in gph and multiply by 10 (add a zero at the end of the fuel flow) and that will give you a pretty good idea of the horsepower you are getting. So depending on compression ratio, it is normal to see takeoff fuel flows at sea level in the 26 to 29 gph range. Paul Siegel Evo N4XU ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows
Rob: Do you know what the "official" measurements are with a Rocket cowl? What is the inlet area and standard outlet area with the lower cowl trimmed to the "factory" trim line? Did you end up with something like a 1 to 1.1 ratio with your inlet/outlet? P.S. Don't know if you know it or not, but Festus is building both an RV-8 and a Pietenpohl!! Thanks, Lee... On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:54 AM, Rob Ray wrote: > > I have a 13 year old HR2 with the stock Harmon cowling and a LyCon flowed > 10.4:1 comp engine. Summer temps reached 400 CHT in extended climbs with > oil reaching 245. Cruise was 350-380 and 210 oil. I have read that cowling > outlet area should slightly exceed inlet area by 10%. I measured my HR2's > cowling and trimmed 6 inches off the bottom lip of the cowl. Now my CHT's > at altitude running at peak range between 310 and 348 with 180-190 oil temp. > I have experimented with LOP and see 288-315 with oil at 170. During > extended climbs in 90+ degree FL weather I never exceed 380 CHT (oil has > reached 230 but quickly cools to below 190 when level). > Lycon frowns on LOP operations for the 10.4:1 comp engines, but it cools > all temps another 20 degrees with a 5% FF reduction. > > I have found even with my RV4 and 2 other Rockets I have helped with > that cowling exit area needs to be opened up. My Dos Centavos... > > Rob Ray > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CalBru(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 08, 2008
Subject: Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows
Does the theory of a 10% larger exit area vs. cowl inlet hold true for ships with pressure plenums? Thanks, Cal F1 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: CHT's and Fuel Flows
Opening up the trailing edge of the cowling, or adding louvers will lower engine temperatures. I have confirmed this on a observations that I have made on my rockets. This allows more air to go through the system. In my experience this increased airflow is directly related to a decrease in airspeed. A three to four knot decrease in speed is what I have found when trimming back the lower cowling. I was not satisfied with reduced airspeed and an article in the august 2003 sport aviation helped me to gain back the lost speed and improve cooling. The key to the system is in the inlets. Not so much the actual size but the internal shape. The inlets need a straight or gradually increasing diffusion zone and then a smooth transition to the plenum. The seals between the inlets and the plenum need to be as tight as possible. Although I have no personal experience with the round cooling air inlets they have two main advantages. Number one is that they are usually located further forward and this allows a longer smoother transition zone. Secondly it is quite a bit easier to seal the round inlets than it is the rectangular style. By improve my inlets I noticed an immediate improvement in cooling. The decrease in cylinder temperatures was to a degree that I was able to not only return the aft cowl opening to the original size but I was able to extend the aft ramp and close the opening from stock. The lost speed has been gained back, plus a little (maybe) but the engine now runs where I want it;330 to 380CHT depending on OAT and power settings. Oil temps are in the 190 range. The conclusion that I have come to with my experiments is that there is not much in the way of speed gains to be made with the stock cowlings but significant improvements in cooling are attainable. I believe the stock rocket cowlings are quite efficient. Some day I will try some round inlets just to see if there are any improvements to be had there. I suspect that if you have a good stock system then there probably is not much to be gained, but I would like to confirm that suspicion. Currently my combined inlet size is 37" and my outlet area is 48". I do have a cowl flap but have found that it is really only useful in the cold winter months in keeping the engine warm during descents. This is the second plane that I have installed a cowl flap on and both instances I could find no speed benefits. (It looks kinda cool, and that must be worth something!) Tom Martin C-GEVO The EVO 1, 230 hours Checked by AVG. AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows
Great info (as usual), Tom. Thanks for taking the time to type that all out! Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/08/08
Lee, I don't know the (Harmon)Rocket cowl numbers but I will find out and get back with you. I have found that both my RV4 and Rocket have had about a 1.5 to 1 exit to inlet... Yep, talked to Festus and he informed me of the Piet project...cool! BTW, I run one mag and one Rose EI, makes a big difference... RR --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Rocket-List Digest Server wrote: > From: Rocket-List Digest Server <rocket-list(at)matronics.com> > Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/08/08 > To: "Rocket-List Digest List" > Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 1:57 AM > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found > in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the > Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features > Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain > ASCII version > of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic > text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-06-08&Archive=Rocket > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-06-08&Archive=Rocket > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Rocket-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sun 06/08/08: 5 > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 03:59 AM - Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows (Rob Ray) > 2. 06:28 AM - Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows (Lee > Logan) > 3. 08:36 AM - Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows > (CalBru(at)aol.com) > 4. 11:33 AM - Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows (Tom > Martin) > 5. 04:22 PM - Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows (Lee > Logan) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > > I have a 13 year old HR2 with the stock Harmon cowling and > a LyCon flowed 10.4:1 > comp engine. Summer temps reached 400 CHT in extended > climbs with oilreaching > 245.Cruise was 350-380 and 210 oil. I have read thatcowling > outlet area should > slightly exceed inlet area by 10%. I measured my HR2's > cowling and trimmed > 6 inches off the bottom lip of the cowl.Now my CHT's at > altitude running at peak > range between310 and 348 with 180-190 oil temp. I have > experimented with LOP > and see 288-315 with oil at 170. During extended climbs in > 90+ degree FL weather > I never exceed 380 CHT (oil has reached 230 butquickly > cools to below 190 > when level). > Lycon frowns on LOP operations for the 10.4:1 comp engines, > but it cools all temps > another 20 degrees with a 5% FF reduction. > > I have found even with my RV4 and 2 other Rockets I have > helped with that cowling > exit area needs to be opened up. My Dos Centavos... > > Rob Ray > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, psiegel(at)fuse.net > wrote: > > From: psiegel(at)fuse.net <psiegel(at)fuse.net> > Subject: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > > On one of my early cross country flights, I had to pull > back the rpm's a > bit when I noticed one of the CHT's was getting close > to my personal upper > limit of 400'. > > Back home after pulling the cowl and plenum, I noticed that > some of the paint > on the cylinder heads had flaked partially blocking air > flow, particularly on > the hot cylinder head. > > I took great care to completely clean out all the cooling > fins of any paint > flakes or casting flash and I was amazed to see a dramatic > drop in the formerly > hot CHT! > > > I am also amazed at how operating lean of peak in economy > cruise ( I NEVER run > LOP at high power settings) drops CHT's! Bart did a > nice job right from > his shop on my fuel flows to each cylinder...I sent my data > to GAMI and they > responded that my numbers were so close with the stock > injectors that there was > nothing they could do for me! > > > A good rule of thumb with the IO-540's is at full > power, take your fuel > flow in gph and multiply by 10 (add a zero at the end of > the fuel flow) and > that will give you a pretty good idea of the horsepower you > are getting. So > depending on compression ratio, it is normal to see takeoff > fuel flows at sea > level in the 26 to 29 gph range. > > Paul Siegel Evo N4XU > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > Rob: Do you know what the "official" > measurements are with a Rocket cowl? > What is the inlet area and standard outlet area with the > lower cowl trimmed > to the "factory" trim line? Did you end up with > something like a 1 to 1.1 > ratio with your inlet/outlet? > > P.S. Don't know if you know it or not, but Festus is > building both an RV-8 > and a Pietenpohl!! > > Thanks, > > Lee... > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:54 AM, Rob Ray > wrote: > > > > > I have a 13 year old HR2 with the stock Harmon cowling > and a LyCon flowed > > 10.4:1 comp engine. Summer temps reached 400 CHT in > extended climbs with > > oil reaching 245. Cruise was 350-380 and 210 oil. I > have read that cowling > > outlet area should slightly exceed inlet area by 10%. > I measured my HR2's > > cowling and trimmed 6 inches off the bottom lip of > the cowl. Now my CHT's > > at altitude running at peak range between 310 and 348 > with 180-190 oil temp. > > I have experimented with LOP and see 288-315 with oil > at 170. During > > extended climbs in 90+ degree FL weather I never > exceed 380 CHT (oil has > > reached 230 but quickly cools to below 190 when > level). > > Lycon frowns on LOP operations for the 10.4:1 comp > engines, but it cools > > all temps another 20 degrees with a 5% FF reduction. > > > > I have found even with my RV4 and 2 other Rockets I > have helped with > > that cowling exit area needs to be opened up. My Dos > Centavos... > > > > Rob Ray > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > From: CalBru(at)aol.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > Does the theory of a 10% larger exit area vs. cowl inlet > hold true for ships > with pressure plenums? > > Thanks, Cal > F1 > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > ________________________________ Message 4 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net> > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > > > Opening up the trailing edge of the cowling, or adding > louvers will lower > engine temperatures. I have confirmed this on a > observations that I have > made on my rockets. This allows more air to go through the > system. In my > experience this increased airflow is directly related to a > decrease in > airspeed. A three to four knot decrease in speed is what I > have found when > trimming back the lower cowling. > I was not satisfied with reduced airspeed and an article > in the > august 2003 sport aviation helped me to gain back the lost > speed and improve > cooling. The key to the system is in the inlets. Not so > much the actual > size but the internal shape. The inlets need a straight or > gradually > increasing diffusion zone and then a smooth transition to > the plenum. The > seals between the inlets and the plenum need to be as tight > as possible. > Although I have no personal experience with the round > cooling air inlets > they have two main advantages. Number one is that they are > usually located > further forward and this allows a longer smoother > transition zone. Secondly > it is quite a bit easier to seal the round inlets than it > is the rectangular > style. By improve my inlets I noticed an immediate > improvement in cooling. > The decrease in cylinder temperatures was to a degree that > I was able to not > only return the aft cowl opening to the original size but I > was able to > extend the aft ramp and close the opening from stock. The > lost speed has > been gained back, plus a little (maybe) but the engine now > runs where I want > it;330 to 380CHT depending on OAT and power settings. Oil > temps are in the > 190 range. > The conclusion that I have come to with my experiments is > that there > is not much in the way of speed gains to be made with the > stock cowlings but > significant improvements in cooling are attainable. I > believe the stock > rocket cowlings are quite efficient. Some day I will try > some round inlets > just to see if there are any improvements to be had there. > I suspect that > if you have a good stock system then there probably is not > much to be > gained, but I would like to confirm that suspicion. > Currently my combined > inlet size is 37" and my outlet area is 48". I > do have a cowl flap but have > found that it is really only useful in the cold winter > months in keeping the > engine warm during descents. This is the second plane that > I have installed > a cowl flap on and both instances I could find no speed > benefits. (It looks > kinda cool, and that must be worth something!) > > Tom Martin > C-GEVO The EVO 1, 230 hours > > > Checked by AVG. > AM > > > ________________________________ Message 5 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > > Great info (as usual), Tom. Thanks for taking the time to > type that all > out! > > > Lee... > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CHT's and Fuel Flows
Probably less Cal. I can ask Sam James, a plenum semi-expert. In my humble opinion I would use 1% increments until I achieved Nirvana! See ya! Smokey --- On Sun, 6/8/08, CalBru(at)aol.com wrote: > From: CalBru(at)aol.com <CalBru(at)aol.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: CHT's and Fuel Flows > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 10:33 AM > Does the theory of a 10% larger exit area vs. cowl inlet > hold true for ships > with pressure plenums? > > Thanks, Cal > F1 > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 15, 2008
Subject: GRT EIS 6000 question
Hey if anybody using one of these things could tell me what scale factor and offset limits you are using for the fuel pressure sender I would be forever in your debt. I threw the box the sender came in away months ago.! Kevin Shannon HRII N450KS taxi testing tomorrow **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/14/08
Date: Jun 15, 2008
Call GRT and talk to Sandy. Do it while sitting in the airplane ready to push buttons. 20 minutes, and you will be ready to go! jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 Rocket Dual GRT Horizon 1 Going Flying! Sent from iPhone > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 11:02 PM - GRT EIS 6000 question (Im7shannon(at)aol.com) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com > Subject: Rocket-List: GRT EIS 6000 question > > Hey if anybody using one of these things could tell me what scale > factor and > offset limits you are using for the fuel pressure sender I would be > forever > in your debt. I threw the box the sender came in away months ago.! > Kevin Shannon > HRII N450KS > taxi testing tomorrow > > > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's > Best > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: All New BBS Interface For Matronics List Forums!
From: "steve0" <yingjun2009(at)yahoo.com.cn>
Date: Jun 17, 2008
I like that picture on the plane ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188246#188246 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Subject: Another one flies
I have a whopping 9 hours on it now, flew the first time on Monday morning. Great time to fly a new airplane, not many others were using the sky. Had a handfull of minor squaks which are fixed now, flies straight and true and does not have that heavy left wing like most RVs. Empty weight is a little heavier than I was hoping for but 1198 with leather seats and a complete paint job isn't too bad, weight and balance is right on the forward edge of the cg range empty with 39 pounds on the tail wheel. Every thing your mother warned you about is true, these are amazing airplanes and a complete rip snortin hoot to fly! Hope to see some of you at Arlington in a few weeks, mine is silver and blue. Kevin Shannon HR II N450KS Apex airport, WA **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "F1 Rocket" <f1rocket(at)telus.net>
Subject: Another one flies
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Congratulations. Sounds like you will have as much fun as the rest of us. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: June 21, 2008 7:48 AM To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: Another one flies I have a whopping 9 hours on it now, flew the first time on Monday morning. Great time to fly a new airplane, not many others were using the sky. Had a handfull of minor squaks which are fixed now, flies straight and true and does not have that heavy left wing like most RVs. Empty weight is a little heavier than I was hoping for but 1198 with leather seats and a complete paint job isn't too bad, weight and balance is right on the forward edge of the cg range empty with 39 pounds on the tail wheel. Every thing your mother warned you about is true, these are amazing airplanes and a complete rip snortin hoot to fly! Hope to see some of you at Arlington in a few weeks, mine is silver and blue. Kevin Shannon HR II N450KS Apex airport, WA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Another one flies
Congrats Kevin! Somebody asked me about $5 a gallon 100LL and my Rocket. I like to fly short 15 minute or less evening flights over my home/airstrip a nd burn a whopping 4 gallons having a complete hoot! I told him 15 minutes flying my Rocket was the best $20 you could ever spen d! Smokey --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Another one flies Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 8:48 AM I have a whopping 9 hours on it now, flew the first time on Monday morning. Great time to fly a new airplane,-not many others were using-the sky. Had a handfull of minor squaks which are fixed now, flies straight and true and does not have that heavy left wing like most RVs. Empty weight is a little heavier than I was hoping for but 1198 with leather seats and a complete paint job-isn't too bad, weight and balance is right on the forward edge of the cg range empty with 39 pounds on the tail wheel. Every thing your mother warned you about is true, these are amazing airplanes and a complete rip snortin hoot to fly! Hope to see some of you at Arlington in a few weeks, mine is silver and blue. Kevin Shannon HR II N450KS Apex airport, WA Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another one flies
Date: Jun 21, 2008
From: Danny <vft(at)aol.com>
Very cool!!! Danny Melnik F1 N14ZM Rocket Factory Melbourne, FL -----Original Message----- From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 9:48 am Subject: Rocket-List: Another one flies I have a whopping 9 hours on it now, flew the first time on Monday morning. Great time to fly a new airplane,?not many others were using?the sky. Had a handfull of minor squaks which are fixed now, flies straight and true and does not have that heavy left wing like most RVs. Empty weight is a little heavier than I was hoping for but 1198 with leather seats and a complete paint job?isn't too bad, weight and balance is right on the forward edge of the cg range empty with 39 pounds on the tail wheel. Every thing your mother warned you about is true, these are amazing airplanes and a complete rip snortin hoot to fly! Hope to see some of you at Arlington in a few weeks, mine is silver and blue. Kevin Shannon HR II N450KS Apex airport, WA Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Another one flies
Congratulations, Kevin! Pictures?? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Aaron Villery" <Scudrunr(at)mho.com>
Subject: Lost a Rocket on Friday
Date: Jun 22, 2008
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/188386.html Atlantic City officer, wife ID'd in plane crash Police chief says loss felt throughout community Police chief says loss felt throughout community (Published: Sunday, June 22, 2008 ) DENNIS TOWNSHIP - Friends say there were two things Dennis McGurk Jr. loved: flying and his wife, Oksana. A few months ago, the Atlantic City police officer added to his love when he purchased a 2007 F1 Harmon Rocket Acrobatic Plane, for which he traveled to Texas to assist the manufacturer with custom assembly. On Friday night, McGurk was piloting that plane with his wife by his side when he crashed in front of the Belle- plain fire station parking lot on Route 605 in Cape May County at about 7:45 p.m. "There was just this great big ball of fire," said Arletta Creamer, who witnessed the crash from the porch of her home across the street from the firehouse. "It was terrible." Federal aviation officials still aren't sure what caused the crash that killed McGurk, 37, and his wife, Oksana, 34, State Police spokesman Sgt. Julian Castellanos said Saturday. The young Mays Landing couple had taken off within the hour from the nearby Woodbine Municipal Airport, Castellanos said. "Everything my son did was adventurous," Dorothy McGurk, of Ventnor, told The Star-Ledger of Newark about her son. "He was quite a guy. I can't stop crying about it." Drivers traveling on Route 605 Saturday afternoon slowed down to examine the tilting telephone poles and the dark splotch on the road marking the crash site. Some pulled into the firehouse parking lot to take a closer look. Creamer didn't need a closer look. The part-time hairdresser spent most of Friday night staring out her bathroom window, watching cleanup crews sift through the wreckage. "I watched them take the two stretchers out," Creamer said. "And (the wreckage) was just this huge black hump." Susan Heaton was watching hummingbirds outside her window Friday evening when she heard a loud bang. She grabbed her camera and headed out her front door, which faces the firehouse a quarter-mile away. Through a small clearing, Heaton could see the smoking wreckage and snapped some photos. Meanwhile, her husband slept soundly on the couch. It was his wife, not the crash, who woke him. "He thought something was wrong with me," Heaton said. "I said that there was nothing wrong with me, but there was something out there." McGurk's plane downed several electrical wires as it crashed. The entire area was without electricity until about 5 a.m. Saturday. Shock spread through the law enforcement community Saturday as officers learned that one of their own had died in the crash. "Officer McGurk was a valued and dedicated member of the department whose service focused on the community aspects of policing," Atlantic City Police Chief John Mooney said in a statement. "His loss will not only be felt in the department, it will be felt throughout the community." Hector Tavarez, an Egg Harbor Township officer who heads the township's Police Athletic League said McGurk "was an incredible guy, always giving an awful lot of stuff to the kids. ... He always understood how to talk to them and what they were going through." When Tavarez and Patrolman Al Maiorano debuted Ready to Ride - a motorcycle and ATV training program that gives youths a chance to wipe away court charges - McGurk involved several Atlantic City teens to keep them off the streets. He and his wife also helped to beautify the 30-acre recreational site in Egg Harbor Township. Capt. Bill McKnight first met McGurk when he joined the force 11 years ago. "He worked for me in community policing," McKnight said. "He first patrolled the Ducktown section and later Bungalow Park. The residents loved Dennis because he would take the time to stop and talk to them." McGurk loved adventure, according to McKnight. "Be it flying, off-road riding, waterskiing - whatever he was doing, he put his full self into it," McKnight said. Especially flying. McGurk happily talked of his new high-performance plane with fellow Atlantic City police officer and flier Dennis Munoz. "He told me his plane was so fast, he flew to New Hampshire in about an hour or so, had lunch and flew back," Munoz recalled. "It took me two days to fly that. But I told him I like flying low and slow." The Harmon Rocket is a plane used primarily for aerial stunts, said Castellanos, who would not speculate on whether McGurk was practicing stunts prior to the crash. "We don't know what he was doing at the time of the accident," Castellanos said. "The FAA will be working to determine that." Oksana McGurk, who graduated from Vineland High School in 1992, was a dental hygienist who also ran a landscaping business with her husband. She never flew herself, but she often shared in Dennis' passion. "They did everything together," Munoz said. "They really did." The crash is under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration and the state Department of Transportation's Division of Aeronautics. Officials believe the crash was a one-plane incident - but they have not ruled out the possibility that a second plane might have been involved, Castellanos said. Police and FAA officials spent Friday night and Saturday searching the wooded areas near the crash site for more wreckage. Creamer, who first noticed McGurk's plane doing a barrel roll overhead about five minutes before the crash, said she didn't see a second plane. When Creamer saw McGurk's plane start a downward spiral, she assumed he was just doing another stunt. "I even waved at him," Creamer said. "I looked up with a smile on my face and waved at him." Creamer said she became alarmed when McGurk's engine suddenly cut out and he made no visible effort to pull himself out of the dive. "The nose never came up," Creamer said. "I said, 'Oh my God, he's going to crash.'" Munoz had no explanation for what could have caused his fellow flier to crash. "You don't know what kind of G-forces he was experiencing," Munoz said. "Unless you see something on film, you can't guess what happened." On Saturday, Munoz spoke with the instructors at the Millville Municipal Airport, where both men took lessons. "They had nothing but praise for him," Munoz said. "He was a really good pilot." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BELTEDAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 2008
Subject: Re: (no subject)
John, tried to get an answer on your gen site. Will these units take salt out of a water softner system to dump into septic tanks? How did the event go? Jess In a message dated 5/13/2008 10:29:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Hr2pilot(at)aol.com writes: Ha guys don't forget to mark your calendar June 7, EAA chapter 71 Bakersfield fly-in John Harmon D & J Harmon Co., Inc. 2201 Coy Avenue Bakersfield, CA 93307 661-396-3570 661-396-3574 FAX web: _www.harmonso2generators.com_ (http://www.harmonso2generators.com/) ____________________________________ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? _Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food_ (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Subject: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) - Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first- 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: On vertical rolls...
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: Tom Martin <fairlea(at)amtelecom.net>
Subject: On vertical rolls...
Andrew I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go wrong fast. Tom Martin _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ - Andrew Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient HYPERLINK "http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007" \nused cars. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Rocket-List "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. 4:13 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: On vertical rolls...
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Toms well stated comments not withstanding. I recommend beginning your vert roll training slowly. They are very disorienting. Start with quarter rolls, then half and slowly work your way up to as many as you can get. Its the pressure on the elev that is the key and you will get that feel as you increase the amount of roll you carry . My early training techniques were quartrer stop, quarter stop, quarter sto p on the way up. Think of it as 4 point rolls in the vertical. Then halfs an d so forth. The key is an unloaded plane. If your carrying any G on the plan e in the vertical, you will know it. I can do 5 vert rolls in the S8 before I have to quit and hold it stopp ed before its time to fall off or do a hammer head. Takes a couple of seco nds for my brain to stop spinning. I have to stop rolls and stop brain spin ning before I get going back down hill again, else I get sick. At least for the RV, torque rolls seem impossible for me past one-ish Mike "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew@nzactive. To com> Sent by: cc owner-rocket-list -server@matronics Subj ect .com Rocket-List: On vertical rolls.. . 06/26/2008 09:20 AM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it s eems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pil ots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most sen ior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me thro ugh all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citab ria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used c ars. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"> http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com /c ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Pull up at any speed over 100. In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical. Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the win g left side. Just pick a side and stick to it. ~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR) Relax stick as the nose swings around. When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they l ook and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver. Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swi ngs around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging pa st the vertical down line. Mike "Jim Stone" To Sent by: owner-rocket-list cc -server@matronics .com Subj ect Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr repo rt 06/26/2008 12:59 PM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please desc ribe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'> http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Awesome, thanks, Jim Louisville KY ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael W Stewart To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Pull up at any speed over 100. In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical. Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the wing left side. Just pick a side and stick to it. ~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR) Relax stick as the nose swings around. When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they look and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver. Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swings around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging past the vertical down line. Mike "Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, "Jim Stone" Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com 06/26/2008 12:59 PM Please respond to rocket-list(at)matronics.com To cc Subject Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =========== ?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List =========== u>http://forums.matronics.com =========== ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Jim, - I practice hammerheads often, perfecting them requires a good feel for when to kick rudder.Waiting too long and it stalls vertical with a pronounced n ose drop. Too early and you skid uphill with a vertical rudder turn. - -I start from a vertical pull, crosschecking the wingtips and canopy rail 90 degrees to the horizon reducing throttle to 1/4, not idle. As airsp eed decays to a "potatoe" prior to dead stop I add power and kick full rudd er and full opposite aileron. The big IO-540 does the rest, bringing the no se around to pure vertical down, add power, recover. - Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Jim Stone wrote: From: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 11:59 AM Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket?- If so please descri be how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) - Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first- 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com /contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: On vertical rolls...
Patty Wagstaff once stated vertical rolls were her hardest item to perfect. I believe her, in the F16, pulling vertical at 5000' and 500 knots the upp er limit of the airspace at 28K was the limit, not the number of rolls it w ould do! In the Rocket, it's maintaining a vertical line while rolling. The y can-be disorienting, but counting outloud usually helps and looking lef t and right to insure vertical... - Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Michael W Stewart wrote: From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 9:38 AM Toms well stated comments not withstanding. I recommend beginning your vert roll training slowly. They are very disorie nting. Start with quarter rolls, then half and slowly work your way up to a s many as you can get. Its the pressure on the elev that is the key and you will get that feel as you increase the amount of roll you carry. My early training techniques were quartrer stop, quarter stop, quarter stop on the w ay up. Think of it as 4 point rolls in the vertical. Then halfs and so fort h. The key is an unloaded plane. If your carrying any G on the plane in the vertical, you will know it. I can do 5 vert rolls in the S8 before I have to quit and hold it stopped b efore its time to fall off or do a hammer head. Takes a couple of seconds f or my brain to stop spinning. I have to stop rolls and stop brain spinning before I get going back down hill again, else I get sick. At least for the RV, torque rolls seem impossible for me past one-ish Mike "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" ---06/26/2008 09:35:22 AM---...just a question on whet her someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exi "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com 06/26/2008 09:20 AM Please respond to rocket-list(at)matronics.com To cc Subject Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best techni que for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I d o have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical r olls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs arou nd here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave gu y who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, witho ut access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So mos t of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-serv er(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =========== ?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List =========== u>http://forums.matronics.com =========== ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CalBru(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
I am assuming that the vert rolls and hammerheads require inverted fuel and oil systems? Cal B. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: Danny <vft(at)aol.com>
Please, please be careful about learning this stuff on your own. I love acro but I've also lost a few friends to it. Hammerheads can end up as a very interesting entry into an inverted spin if you get too slow at the top and don't use enough opposite aileron. Get some training from a qualified acro instructor. It will be the best money you have ever spent and a real hoot to boot. Sermon over Danny Melnik F1 N14ZM Rocket Factory Melbourne, FL -----Original Message----- From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Pull up at any speed over 100. In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical. Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the wing left side. Just pick a side and stick to it. ~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR) Relax stick as the nose swings around. When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they look and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver. Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swings around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging past the vertical down line. Mike "Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, "Jim Stone" Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com 06/26/2008 12:59 PM Please respond to rocket-list(at)matronics.com To cc Subject Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D============================================ href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D============================================ href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D============================================ href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D============================================ ==================================== ?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List ==================================== u>http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== [Image Removed] ==================================== ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== [Image Removed] [Image Removed] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other
Rocket pilots.....
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
Hmmmm. Upon reflection: 1. Many thanks for the technique advice, you guys, I appreciate it, and wil give it a go......when.... 2. I'm satisfied I can do it safely, and recover from anything. I thought I could, but maybe Tom's right. I have not, in fact, done inverted spin recoveries in the Rocket, although I spun the Citabria till my instructor got sick. I read about the recent Rocket accident, (TX?) and I was very sorry to hear about it. I've lost a few friends, and it's never easy. So easy to forget the risks we deal with, although a near-fatal training accident 7 years ago solved that problem for me. I guess, at the back of my mind, I was sort guessing that I "knew" the cause of the accident (low level stunting) whereas in fact, of course, I don't. My hubris, I guess, and assumptions based on reading lots of NTSB reports. But Tom's right - we don't know, yet. It's not "taking the fun out of it", Tom, it's acknowledging that risk management is the inseparable flipside of the aviation coin, and I appreciate your thoughts. I'll wait till Jim, my military friend, is back from deployment, and we'll go and push the envelope together. Thanks again for the advice. You know, I mainly do short-strip/rough strip/NZ mountain flying in my Rocket, which is lots of fun. I live just on the verge of the Southern Alps, so there are plenty of glaciers, mountains, "canyons" and so on to go and fly around/over/thru. This may sound sacrilegous, and I'm sorry and surprised to have to say it, but I find aeros in the Rocket a bit boring compared to that. Any suggestions as to other interesting aerobatic manuevers in the Rocket? I find it bizarre that I find aeros a tad boring in the Rocket, and I wonder if I'm just doing the wrong stuff. Admittedly I'm only doing the more basic manuevres. Any thoughts/suggestions? And any aerobatically (or not) flying Rocket pilots interested in taking me up and showing me what you and YOUR Rocket get up to, on my dime, (at $5.50 a gallon it BETTER be on my dime, but you try running a 340!) next time I'm in the US? I have a Cessna 340 based north of LA, so I get around the US a bit. Even did a diversionary landing into Apple Valley on our last X/C to Houston, and was thinking, damn, I know one of the Rocketeers lives here - (is it Tom? wasn't sure) as our fuel pressure gauge filled up with, er, FUEL! - but we met a capable and friendly mechanic quickly, tied off the lines before the aeroplane blew up, and were on our way to Houston within an hour. Anyway. Next time I'm tooling around the US/Western Canada, would enjoy meeting and maybe flying with (or not) other Rocketeers, particularly if you're doing interesting aerobatic stuff in your Rocket, but no worries if not. I just became the second Rocket owner in NZ, as one has finally been built in-country, and there's another just been started down my way, but I've put 400 hours on mine without anyone to compare notes with. Would enjoy doing so next time I'm in North America. Feel free to email me offlist on andrew(at)activenewzealand.com. Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... Andrew I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go wrong fast. Tom Martin ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ - Andrew Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ...and a note on safety....
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
Re learning acro on your own, Danny, I agree. I was exploring the possibility of adding new manuevres to a base of already having done quite a lot of dual aerobatic training, starting over 10 years ago. I'm no expert, but can do the basics reasonably safely, I think. So, for instance, we never did 4 point rolls, dual, but I was happy enough learning on my own, with a bit of reading, cos it looks awfully like a slightly jerky aileron roll to me. Vertical plane manuevers, though, you're probably right. I guess that's an advantage of an online "community" - you can think out loud before you actually go and DO (fly) anything. Problem is, like I said, there are no truly dual capable Rockets in NZ - my military guy is very brave, I think, sitting back there calmly coaching me, with no rudders. But it's all good - I'll wait till he gets back.... As for that F16 pull vertical for 28,000 feet routine, my word. Can't be too many aircraft that make the Rocket look slow, but that's one of them. I'd love to try that - reckon if I just rang up the USAF they'd give me a go? :) Although (warning, editorial coming up) I've flown a number of military jet trainers - Soko Galeb, L-39, Fouga, T-33 - and if I had to choose ONE aircraft, with an unlimited fuel budget, I'd choose a Rocket over any of them. It's hard to describe why, exactly, but there's something about 4000 fpm in the Rocket that seems totally different to 4000 fpm in the Soko. I guess it comes down to responsiveness & subtlety, or something. But yeah, you'd prise my Rocket out of my cold, dead hands, or whatever it is you Americans say :) Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... Andrew I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go wrong fast. Tom Martin ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ - Andrew Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Thanks Smokey, Full rudder into and aileron opposite sure sounds like pro spin controls but I do realize they are momentary and must be neutralized. Keeping the elevator neutral will help with avoiding a spin. Thanks for your technique and I may strap on a chute soon and give it a try. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:49 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Jim, I practice hammerheads often, perfecting them requires a good feel for when to kick rudder.Waiting too long and it stalls vertical with a pronounced nose drop. Too early and you skid uphill with a vertical rudder turn. I start from a vertical pull, crosschecking the wingtips and canopy rail 90 degrees to the horizon reducing throttle to 1/4, not idle. As airspeed decays to a "potatoe" prior to dead stop I add power and kick full rudder and full opposite aileron. The big IO-540 does the rest, bringing the nose around to pure vertical down, add power, recover. Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Jim Stone wrote: From: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 11:59 AM Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Ray To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Inverted oil, fuel and perhaps a counterweighted prop would be good. Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: CalBru(at)aol.com To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report I am assuming that the vert rolls and hammerheads require inverted fuel and oil systems? Cal B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: first10 hr report
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Well, you attached seven pictures and they were all blank. But then the file names werer "blank" something, I should've known. _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Please, please be careful about learning this stuff on your own. I love acro but I've also lost a few friends to it. Hammerheads can end up as a very interesting entry into an inverted spin if you get too slow at the top and don't use enough opposite aileron. Get some training from a qualified acro instructor. It will be the best money you have ever spent and a real hoot to boot. Sermon over Danny Melnik F1 N14ZM Rocket Factory Melbourne, FL -----Original Message----- From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Pull up at any speed over 100. In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical. Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the wing left side. Just pick a side and stick to it. ~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR) Relax stick as the nose swings around. When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they look and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver. Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swings around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging past the vertical down line. Mike Inactive hide details for "Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, "Jim Stone" Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com 06/26/2008 12:59 PM Please respond to rocket-list(at)matronics.com To cc Subject Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks, Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:smokyray(at)yahoo.com> Rob Ray Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com < Im7shannon(at)aol.com> wrote: From: <mailto:Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Im7shannon(at)aol.com < Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> used cars. 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Rocket-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com "'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== ==================================== ?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List ==================================== u>http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== [Image Removed] <http://webmail.aol.com/37434/aol/en-us/Mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.19725 130&folder=NewMail&partId=5> _____ Get the Moviefone Toolbar <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011> . Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: ACRO in Rockets
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Andrew and all... Tom and Danny did a nice job of trying to discourage acro without Qualified Instruction, but let me tag a few more things on to this... 1) Don't believe everything you read... (Insurance agents must be horrified to read people learning about acro on the internet...!) Example: On the Rocket forum, on individual advised that recovering from an inverted spin is "basically the same" as a normal spin... Couldn't be more untrue! Falling out of a vertical maneuver, with crossed controls is a recipe for a spin...upright or inverted...depending on which way it goes... Do you know the source that you are receiving instruction from? 2) Most Acro CFIs teach in Citabrias/Decathlons or Pitts. Acro in a rocket is quite different due to low drag/high power. Techniques that work in those airplanes could be dangerous in a rocket without applying a healthy dose of knowledge/experience. An Extra is a better tool to learn by... High performance jet jocks (Smokey Ray and others here excepted! ;^) typically leave their feet flat on the floor and don't understand p-factor or torque. 3) My oil pressure drops quickly on vertical up-lines! I have inverted oil in my Rocket (Christen system) and an audible warning when oil pressure drops below 30. I hate hearing that noise! As a result, I avoid sustained vertical lines, hammerheads, left knife-edge (right is OK!) and any sustained "zero G" flight. (Inverted flight is fine, positive G is fine, but hanging around zero isn't.) If you are worrying about flying the airplane on that up-line, watching airspeed, etc, are you going to be good about checking your oil pressure too?! I am all for fun...the Rocket is a great acro ship and I enjoy acro nearly every flight. I learn something every time I fly it. Risk assessment is something we all must do. Unfortunately, reading the accident reports, we don't do it well, especially when our egos are involved. What's the number one accident cause in "sport" aviation? Please don't just "give it a try"! Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 Rocket "Sport" Collierville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other stay out of trouble. About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well... In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft... Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident prevention? _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
Count me in, for sure if I actually make it to OSH. And thx for the thoughts, Jeff. I hear ya. NB, I said most of my "dual" instruction was in the Citabria (10 hours or so of dual aerobatic training) but I've also had a few sessions of dual aerobatic "coaching" in the Rocket, a little dual aero stuff in my RV-4....and have done lots of solo aeros in the Rocket, to the point that, as I have embarrassedly admitted, that I find it a bit boring. (And am therefore wondering what I'm doing wrong! It's a ROCKET!!) . So, while I think you guys are basically correct, and I will, indeed, get some training sorted out for pushing on with more interesting manuevres, I do wonder if there's a time and a place for extending your aerobatic envelope, very carefully, very gently, on your own. I mean, you can't get dual for every single experience you'll face as a pilot, right? I'm certainly not proposing jumping into aerobatics without training - I actually have quite a bit of aerobatic training already. So presumably once you understand the basic principles of aerobatic flying, and have a fair amount of time in type with the brown stuff up and the blue stuff down....well, I'm not sure. I certainly agree, unreservedly, with the concept of taking safely seriously, getting lots of training, and definitely NOT believing everything you read. And if there were any Rocket-qualified instructors in NZ I'd certainly get more instruction from them....and ditto, if I knew anyone who could give dual in an Extra. Except I don't think we have any in New Zealand. It's, um, a small country! The entire population of NZ is about the same as San Diego. I think the idea of an accident/incident summary for Rockets is an excellent one, and would be happy to help, Jeff. I've personally trawled the NTSB records pretty comprehensively, for all sorts of aircraft, and it seems that aerobatics/inpromptu airshows/buzzjobs are an extraordinarily high proportion of the total in many high performance experimentals. (For a larger sample group, for instance, take a quick squiz at the RV4 records on the NTSB database.) Pilot error can happen to all of us - to err is human - and yes, it seems that most accidents seem to be caused by pilot error, and we need to do our damndest to avoid that, particularly in these high performance machines. Still, I worry a little about the aircraft as well - Richard Van Grunsven designed an extraordinary series of aircraft, but I understand that he doesn't approve of his airframes being hotted up and hauled through the air a la Rocket....and he, surely, knows a fair bit about aeronautical design. My main fear is overstressing my tail feathers. Was the aircraft REALLY designed to have a VNE as high as a Rocket? How about VNO and VA? Anyone know how many Rocket accidents have involved vertical or horizontal stabiliser failure? For the record, with 400 happy hours of Rocket time under my belt, mainly mountain flying, I don't think there are unsafe aircraft, per se. I just wonder if they have any weak points, apart from the obvious ones like being a little nose heavy, and, um, well, that's it for weak points. Rockets are great machines! But seriously, anyone care to comment on the strength of the HRII tail, which as far as I know is stock RV4? Was the tail beefed up for the F1??? Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Linebaugh Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:16 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other stay out of trouble. About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well... In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft... Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident prevention? _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
One other thing to consider about safety, you're all gonna think I am a dumb ass when you read this but take the rear stick out first before you do anything other than straight and level. My back seat cushion went wandering around by itself in the cabin the other day and wound up lodged between the stick and the side of the fuse. I did not know what was going on until I landed, I thought I bent something in the airframe, but I had to fly home 30 miles pushing the stick left very hard to stay level. It was an interesting landing too, lucky there was no wind! I took the rear stick out and went flying again just to make sure my airplane still worked! be safe out there guys and make sure you have plenty of altitude to recover from anything you are unsure of. Kevin Shannon 18 hours and the grin keeps getting bigger.. Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :) Smokey --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com wrote: From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerry Filby" <gerf(at)gerf.com>
Subject: 8 versus 4 tail ?
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Hi Folks, Any of you flying the 8 tail on your HR rather than the 4's tail ? Curious if there's any experiences that will sway me beyond the price and pre-punched convenience. Regards, Gerry. (Flying an RV-9, was going to build an RV-10, but decided I could put the same IO-540 to better use :D) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Great idea Jeff, Count me in. Jim Stone 110 hrs HRII Louisville KY ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Linebaugh To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other stay out of trouble. About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well... In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft... Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident prevention? _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rockets For Sale
From: "XIUYAN1" <xiuyanxiong(at)163.com>
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Luckily I saw the website, I wish all the people happy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190234#190234 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: capmrp <capmrp(at)cfu.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 06/27/08
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Jeff, This is the kind of thinking that helps save lives and airframes and all aviation communities need more of it. The more exposure I get to this kind stand-down thinking, the safer I am. I'll be there if I make it to OSH this year. R/ Mike P. MM-1 F-1 Waterloo, Iowa ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Two's in Jeff, I'll be there most of the week. I'm staying with my wingman from OIF who is currently the 12AF Chief of safety and owns an RV4. He is i nterested and maybe can help... Smokey --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Jim Stone wrote: From: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 9:56 PM _filtered #yiv1802643476 { font-family:Verdana;} _filtered #yiv1802643476 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} #yiv1802643476 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 A:link { COLOR:#006699;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR:#006699;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 A:visited { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR:black;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.postbody1 { LETTER-SPACING:10.8pt;} #yiv1802643476 DIV.Section1 { } Great idea Jeff, Count me in. Jim Stone 110 hrs HRII Louisville KY ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Linebaugh To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it woul d be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other s tay out of trouble. About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exact ly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "be tter" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well... In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all c ome with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we cou ld all benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I could find in tho se particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the trouble areas we re maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it would be revea ling to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane wa s not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all loo k each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft... Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident prevention? _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: safety seminar
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Jeff, I think it's a great idea. I'll be there... with my mouth shut. Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 30, 2008
Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2008
From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: > > Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting > the word out ??? > > > > Larry E. James > > Bellevue, WA > > Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) > > Rocket (still in basement) > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Checked by AVG. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 30, 2008
Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jun 30, 2008
I agree to some extent with what you are saying, except the antipathy with safety seminars. Depending on its objective, a safety seminaar is a very valuable thing, because those folks who know could just pass information along that might save my life. And even if a thousand other people sit around bored to tears, it was all worth it. Nico _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 5:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution _____ Checked by AVG. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right, and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA & VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high speeds/G loads... Feel free to email me offlist... Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver <mailto:Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net> To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron i cs.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c o ntribution ________________________________ Checked by AVG. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rocket safety
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Regarding whether or not a safety seminar is in order, boring or not, please consider that there are roughly 175 Rockets reported to have flown. Then factor in how many have killed their pilots and/or passengers. I don't have the accident stats, nor the time to dig them up, but I can think of around 10 fatal accidents, maybe more. Does anyone know the true number? That seems pretty high to me. I know that if I were buying a Chevrolet that had a greater than 1 in 20 chance of killing me, I'd think twice about it. OTOH, I can't identify any specific deficiency with the plane. Maybe others can. Maybe at a safety "conference". It is a good airplane. Maybe too good. YMMV, Vince ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Safety "Chat" at OSH
Date: Jul 01, 2008
Weav...and all: I hate Safety Seminars too...almost as much as funerals. Perhaps you got the wrong idea of what I proposed. This is not to placate insurance companies, nor to try to save some "Wing King's" job... I am suggesting is that we all come with our favorite "how I scared myself" story, perhaps a "this is how someone is going to kill themselves", then sit down and try to learn from each other. This is not someone "preaching" or showing "death pictures". These are great airplanes, I totally agree. But when people ask "is recovery from an inverted spin the same as an upright spin?"- -I think there is a bunch of good to be done. I don't claim to be any smarter than anybody else here...I am not proposing this to stroke my ego...I just want to see if we can avoid ONE more case of the "divots!" Since this is such a "relatively" small community, the synergy of our experiences and thoughts might just help someone...and perhaps we could dispel some of the "bad rap"? There are several people from this list, but more from the Team Rocket forum, that have voiced interest. I am hoping we can get your voice of experience too, but if you are not interested in participating, please don't. Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgment. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JOHNTMEY(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 01, 2008
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety & Tail
I vote for Rocket Safety Get-Together but I will miss OSH due to overseas work. Someone take notes. My tail assy is RV8. Ship might be a little slower due to increased wetted area and other dangling things. John Meyers N5800 90 hrs. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: Rob Ray <smokyray(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Andy, I researched Rocket mishaps and there are way more ground than air. Since it's inception I can only find 12 fatal mishaps, less than 10% of the number built. Considering the "nature of the beast" it by no means dangerous. The Rocket is a high performance Sport plane, pure and simple. Anyone you has questions as to their capabilities should get proper training or fly something else. Rocket flying should be taken seriously, yet FUN can still be had with proper safety considerations, training and maintenance. The seminar is a great idea, somebody should take notes (maybe me) to share with those unable to attend. My USAF safety buddy/RV4 driver "mob" has volunteered his time to help. He has a forum tent schedule, timeshare? See ya at OSH... Smokey --- On Tue, 7/1/08, ACTIVE NZ - Andrew wrote: From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew <andrew(at)nzactive.com> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 12:12 AM I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right, and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA & VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high speeds/G loads... Feel free to email me offlist... Andrew From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM rocket-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: _filtered #yiv1178269688 { font-family:Calibri;} _filtered #yiv1178269688 { font-family:Tahoma;} _filtered #yiv1178269688 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv1178269688 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:10pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";} #yiv1178269688 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:10pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";} #yiv1178269688 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:10pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";} #yiv1178269688 A:link { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1178269688 SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1178269688 A:visited { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1178269688 SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1178269688 SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:windowtext;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #yiv1178269688 .MsoChpDefault { } #yiv1178269688 DIV.Section1 { } Count me in too. Im thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safety "Chat" at OSH
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jul 02, 2008
Everytime I talk with another Rocket owner I end up learning something that made me a safer pilot in my Rocket. Usually while discussing operational issues I learn something I can do better or discussing maintenance/build issues I learn something preventative. While these are just conversations about this great plane they are in reality mini safety seminars and aything but boring. I think a purposeful focused review of known Rocket incidents/accidents and their causes would be not only wise but interesting and informative. And if it decreases insurance cost what is wrong with that? -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190851#190851 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Rocket Safety Chat at Oshkosh
Date: Jul 21, 2008
I have been working on deconflicting schedules and finding a meeting place for our Safety Chat. I came up with Monday at 1100, meeting at the entrance to the Forums Tents. I see this only lasting an hour, then perhaps we can all get some lunch before enjoying the Airshow. I am hoping to keep this informal but productive. I have a list of HR and F1 accidents to briefly summarize. We will hit some high points on maintenance topics, then bring it to the group. Please think about a "lesson learned" story to share before the chat. I want to see this positive and helpful. If we can help pilots identify risks so they can make better decisions, and get people thinking it can happen to them, I would consider it a success. If you plan to attend, or have suggestions/ideas, why not drop me a line at the e-mail below? Thanks. Jeff _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN ________________________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safety "Chat" at OSH
From: "gnuse" <gnuse(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jul 21, 2008
"Team Rocket Forum"...........where is that located? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194300#194300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rocket gathering spots at Oshkosh
Date: Jul 22, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
Jeff Linebaugh offered to coordinate a Rocket safety seminar. See below or reference his post from yesterday. I propose to simply host a get together for Rocket pilots. No set agenda. Just show up. I propose Tuesday night at 7 p.m. in the ultralight vendor campground. Earlier is OK too, but I thought guys would want to eat first. I can offer a FEW beers, but to be safe BYOB, and a lawnchair. To get to the UL vendor campground (very easy to find), go to the intersection of Knapp St. and Ripple Road. Knapp St. is the north/south road that goes right through the heart of the convention and past the vintage aircraft parking. Ripple Road runs east/west and is the first intersection just southwest of the ultralight runway. >From Knapp/Ripple roads, proceed east (towards the main runways) for about 2 city blocks. There you will find 2 gates. One goes onto the flightline. Don't go there. Take the other gate which goes into the UL vendor campground. Normally, Rick and Nancy are the campground hosts and they know the group from southwest Indiana very well and can send you in the right direction. If someone other than Rick and Nancy are there this year, well, just look for the USA flag AND the Jolly Roger flags that fly high above our camp every year. Parking is VERY limited in the campground so IF you MUST drive, please consider carpooling, or leaving your vehicle in one of the parking lots and ride the tram to our campground. PARKING IS LIMITED and you might get turned away at the gate if it becomes a problem. Plan accordingly. The trams pick up and drop off very near our campsite. Just take the southbound tram to the seaplane base pick up point. It isn't at the south end of the main 18/36 runway, but you can see it from there. Besides, if you guys can't spot the ultralight runway with 200 ultralights nearby, maybe you shouldn't be left out alone. See you there. Vince 812-449-0230 cell 1. 06:41 PM - Rocket Safety Chat at Oshkosh (Jeff Linebaugh) 2. 09:24 PM - Re: Safety "Chat" at OSH (gnuse) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Chat at Oshkosh I have been working on deconflicting schedules and finding a meeting place for our Safety Chat. I came up with Monday at 1100, meeting at the entrance to the Forums Tents. I see this only lasting an hour, then perhaps we can all get some lunch before enjoying the Airshow. I am hoping to keep this informal but productive. I have a list of HR and F1 accidents to briefly summarize. We will hit some high points on maintenance topics, then bring it to the group. Please think about a "lesson learned" story to share before the chat. I want to see this positive and helpful. If we can help pilots identify risks so they can make better decisions, and get people thinking it can happen to them, I would consider it a success. If you plan to attend, or have suggestions/ideas, why not drop me a line at the e-mail below? Thanks. Jeff _________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... Collierville, TN ________________________________ Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Bose X Aviation Headset For Sale
From: "Geico266" <Geico266(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2008
I have a nice Bose X for sale on e-Bay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300247651009&rd=1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196676#196676 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2008
From: "Tom Utterback" <hr69gt(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 08/04/08
unsuscribe On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Rocket-List Digest Server < rocket-list(at)matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-08-04&Archive=Rocket > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-08-04&Archive=Rocket > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Rocket-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Mon 08/04/08: 0 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Oshkosh Safety Seminar Report
Date: Aug 18, 2008
Several people asked for a summary of our Rocket Safety Seminar at Oshkosh. Were it is in not so short form. I welcome any additions, corrections, or suggestions. Feel free to contact me directly off list. Thanks, Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net The safety seminar was well attended. More than 25 people took time out of their AirVenture experience to participate. It was a diverse group: builders and flyers with F1s, Harmons, and hybrids, geographically varied, experienced and not so. We had a wealth of knowledge and breadth of experience not often see in a flying group. It was a great opportunity to put faces with names and get to know other Rocketeers. We started with a short review of Rocket accidents. Most plaguing were several accidents that occurred maneuvering close to the ground and/or while performing aerobatics, with no aircraft anomalies found. There were also two forced landings. Compared to RV-type aircraft, we evidently have a greater chance of falling prey to the temptations of low level aerobatics. We then passed on lessons learned and experiences. Some of the topics were: * Spins and aerobatics o Differences with a passenger/aft CG o Hammerheads, and the risks of inadvertent spin entry o Differences between upright and inverted spin recoveries o Differences between learning aerobatics in a Decathlon or Pitts and flying them in a rocket * Engine failure glide ratios: counter weighted propellers vs. non counter weighted, different props and rpm settings and their affect on glide performance * Low altitude engine failures: when not to turn back to the runway * Inverted oil systems: risks and maintenance requirements We stand much better odds of improving personal safety as a group than as a bunch of individuals. Learning from each others experiences, and using our varied talents and resources will reap benefits for everyone. Overall, communication is the key in identifying and solving problems. To this end, Mark Frederick volunteered to help set up a private forum for Rocket owners only, aimed at sharing useful and positive information (in contrast to the open, and often misused Matronics forum). Several suggestions were made by the group in the interest of safety. Suggestions that fell into the area of flying and operating the aircraft: * Identify high risk practices and develop a list of procedures and maneuvers to avoid. For instance: o Low-level aerobatics o Showing off or performing maneuvers at the spur of the moment without forethought, proper training or practice o Performing high pitch angle/low airspeed maneuvers (for instance, hammerheads) without understanding the risks of inadvertent spin/inverted spin entries and recovery procedures o Over-the-top aerobatics or spins with an aft CG/heavy weight passenger o Engine hot starts with high throttle settings and/or locked brakes resulting in nose-overs * Encourage owners to fly with one another (with egos checked at the door) to observe each others good and bad habits o Highlights differences between airframes and helps start an exchange of information * Develop a personal safety creed to make a conscious decision on the ground to avoid high risk situations and actions. Help support others in adhering to their safety creed. For instance: o I will not perform low level aerobatics or aggressive maneuvers below XXXX AGL o I will not fly VFR with ceilings less than XXXX, XXXX in mountainous terrain o I will identify and fix known aircraft malfunctions promptly o I will always take X minutes to perform a proper preflight inspection o I will not fly when impaired physically in any way o Etc >From the Maintenance and Airworthiness side of the equation: * Identify maintenance areas to pay closer attention to o Re-torque gear legs at oil changes o Engine baffling o Tailwheel spring attach bracket o Control linkages, rod-ends and use of washers o Engine mounts o Empennage and spar attach points * Realize the additional strain placed on aircraft used regularly for aerobatics and increase inspection requirements * Have an experienced and concerned independent person look over your aircraft o the builder may have a prejudiced eye when it comes to inspecting and maintaining their own aircraft o a non-builder may not have the experience or know how to maintain their own aircraft o It may be hard on the pride, but having a critical but considerate individual inspect our airplanes may help point out deficiencies. In any case, it helps start an exchange of information. o Put together a for fun fly-in competition where we all look at each others planes to see who can find the most items that could be improved? Conclusion: It was worthwhile time spent with other Rocketeers. The session was well received and most came away feeling positive and better informed. Many expressed an interest in continuing with similar gatherings and new measures focused on Rocket safety. We fly, or are building to fly one of the best sport aircraft on the planet. To be able to maximize the thrill of flying this great aircraft safely, and be able to encourage others to do the same would be a great goal! Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J Nelson" <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: Oshkosh Safety Seminar Report
Date: Aug 18, 2008
Well done Jeff. Wish I could have been there. Greg Nelson F-1 Rocket N144X _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Linebaugh Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Oshkosh Safety Seminar Report Several people asked for a summary of our Rocket Safety Seminar at Oshkosh. Were it is in not so short form. I welcome any additions, corrections, or suggestions. Feel free to contact me directly off list. Thanks, Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net The safety seminar was well attended. More than 25 people took time out of their AirVenture experience to participate. It was a diverse group: builders and flyers with F1s, Harmons, and "hybrids", geographically varied, experienced and not so. We had a wealth of knowledge and breadth of experience not often see in a flying group. It was a great opportunity to put faces with names and get to know other Rocketeers. We started with a short review of Rocket accidents. Most plaguing were several accidents that occurred "maneuvering" close to the ground and/or while performing aerobatics, with no aircraft anomalies found. There were also two forced landings. Compared to RV-type aircraft, we evidently have a greater chance of falling prey to the temptations of low level aerobatics. We then passed on lessons learned and experiences. Some of the topics were: * Spins and aerobatics o Differences with a passenger/aft CG o Hammerheads, and the risks of inadvertent spin entry o Differences between upright and inverted spin recoveries o Differences between learning aerobatics in a Decathlon or Pitts and flying them in a rocket * Engine failure glide ratios: counter weighted propellers vs. non counter weighted, different props and rpm settings and their affect on glide performance * Low altitude engine failures: when not to turn back to the runway * Inverted oil systems: risks and maintenance requirements We stand much better odds of improving personal safety as a group than as a bunch of individuals. Learning from each other's experiences, and using our varied talents and resources will reap benefits for everyone. Overall, communication is the key in identifying and solving problems. To this end, Mark Frederick volunteered to help set up a private forum for Rocket owners only, aimed at sharing useful and positive information (in contrast to the open, and often misused Matronics forum). Several suggestions were made by the group in the interest of safety. Suggestions that fell into the area of flying and operating the aircraft: * Identify high risk practices and develop a list of procedures and maneuvers to avoid. For instance: o Low-level aerobatics o Showing off or performing maneuvers at the spur of the moment without forethought, proper training or practice o Performing high pitch angle/low airspeed maneuvers (for instance, hammerheads) without understanding the risks of inadvertent spin/inverted spin entries and recovery procedures o Over-the-top aerobatics or spins with an aft CG/heavy weight passenger o Engine hot starts with high throttle settings and/or locked brakes resulting in nose-overs * Encourage owners to fly with one another (with ego's checked at the door) to observe each other's good and bad habits o Highlights differences between airframes and helps start an exchange of information * Develop a personal safety creed to make a conscious decision on the ground to avoid high risk situations and actions. Help support others in adhering to their safety creed. For instance: o I will not perform low level aerobatics or aggressive maneuvers below XXXX' AGL o I will not fly VFR with ceilings less than XXXX', XXXX' in mountainous terrain o I will identify and fix known aircraft malfunctions promptly o I will always take X minutes to perform a proper preflight inspection o I will not fly when impaired physically in any way o Etc. >From the Maintenance and Airworthiness side of the equation: * Identify maintenance areas to pay closer attention to o Re-torque gear legs at oil changes o Engine baffling o Tailwheel spring attach bracket o Control linkages, rod-ends and use of washers o Engine mounts o Empennage and spar attach points * Realize the additional strain placed on aircraft used regularly for aerobatics and increase inspection requirements * Have an experienced and concerned independent person look over your aircraft o the builder may have a prejudiced eye when it comes to inspecting and maintaining their own aircraft o a non-builder may not have the experience or know how to maintain their own aircraft o It may be hard on the pride, but having a critical but considerate individual inspect our airplanes may help point out deficiencies. In any case, it helps start an exchange of information. o Put together a "for fun" fly-in competition where we all look at each other's planes to see who can find the most items that could be improved.? Conclusion: It was worthwhile time spent with other Rocketeers. The session was well received and most came away feeling positive and better informed. Many expressed an interest in continuing with similar gatherings and new measures focused on Rocket safety. We fly, or are building to fly one of the best sport aircraft on the planet. To be able to maximize the thrill of flying this great aircraft safely, and be able to encourage others to do the same would be a great goal! Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh Safety Seminar Report
>From one who was there...Thanks!=0ASmokey=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: J Nelson <u2nelson(at)prodigy.net>=0ATo: rocket-list(at)matronics.c om=0ASent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:52:45 AM=0ASubject: RE: Rocket-List: O shkosh Safety Seminar Report=0A=0A=0AWell done Jeff.- Wish I could have b een there.=0A-=0AGreg Nelson=0AF-1 Rocket N144X=0A-=0A=0A______________ __________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto :owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Linebaugh=0ASent : Monday, August 18, 2008 7:07 AM=0ATo: rocket-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject : Rocket-List: Oshkosh Safety Seminar Report=0A-=0ASeveral people asked f or a summary of our Rocket Safety Seminar at Oshkosh .- Were it is in not so short form. I welcome any additions, corrections, or suggestions.- Fe el free to contact me directly off list.- Thanks,=0A-=0AJeff Linebaugh =0Ajefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net=0A-=0A-=0AThe safety seminar was well at tended.- More than 25 people took time out of their AirVenture experience to participate. It was a diverse group: builders and flyers with F1s, Harm ons, and =93hybrids=94, geographically varied, experienced and not so. We h ad a wealth of knowledge and breadth of experience not often see in a flyin g group. It was a great opportunity to put faces with names and get to know other Rocketeers.=0A-=0AWe started with a short review of Rocket acciden ts. Most plaguing were several accidents that occurred =93maneuvering=94 cl ose to the ground and/or while performing aerobatics, with no aircraft anom alies found. There were also two forced landings. Compared to RV-type aircr aft, we evidently have a greater chance of falling prey to the temptations of low level aerobatics.=0AWe then passed on lessons learned and experience s. Some of the topics were:=0A=B7------- Spins and aerobatics =0Ao------ Differences with a passenger/aft CG ----- -- =0Ao------ Hammerheads, and the risks of inadvertent spi n entry=0Ao------ Differences between upright and inverted spin recoveries=0Ao------ Differences between learning aerobatics i n a Decathlon or Pitts and flying them in a rocket=0A=B7------ - Engine failure glide ratios: counter weighted propellers vs. non counte r weighted, different props and rpm settings and their affect on glide perf ormance=0A=B7------- Low altitude engine failures: when not t o turn back to the runway=0A=B7------- Inverted oil systems: risks and maintenance requirements=0A-=0AWe stand much better odds of imp roving personal safety as a group than as a bunch of individuals. Learning from each other=92s experiences, and using our varied talents and resources will reap benefits for everyone. Overall, communication is the key in iden tifying and solving problems. To this end, Mark Frederick volunteered to he lp set up a private forum for Rocket owners only, aimed at sharing useful a nd positive information (in contrast to the open, and often misused Matroni cs forum). =0A-=0ASeveral suggestions were made by the group in the inter est of safety. Suggestions that fell into the area of flying and operating the aircraft:=0A=B7------- Identify high risk practices and d evelop a list of procedures and maneuvers to avoid. For instance:=0Ao-- ---- Low-level aerobatics=0Ao------ Showing off or perf orming maneuvers at the spur of the moment without forethought, proper trai ning or practice=0Ao------ Performing high pitch angle/low airs peed maneuvers (for instance, hammerheads) without understanding the risks of inadvertent spin/inverted spin entries and recovery procedures=0Ao-- ---- Over-the-top aerobatics or spins with an aft CG/heavy weight p assenger =0Ao------ Engine hot starts with high throttle settin gs and/or locked brakes resulting in nose-overs=0A=B7------- Encourage owners to fly with one another (with ego=92s checked at the door) to observe each other=92s good and bad habits=0Ao------ Highli ghts differences between airframes and helps start an exchange of informati on=0A=B7------- Develop a personal safety creed to make a con scious decision on the ground to avoid high risk situations and actions. He lp support others in adhering to their safety creed. For instance:=0Ao- ----- I will not perform low level aerobatics or aggressive maneu vers below XXXX=92 AGL=0Ao------ I will not fly VFR with ceilin gs less than XXXX=92, XXXX=92 in mountainous terrain=0Ao------ I will identify and fix known aircraft malfunctions promptly=0Ao--- --- I will always take X minutes to perform a proper preflight inspec tion=0Ao------ I will not fly when impaired physically in any w ay=0Ao------ Etc=85- =0AFrom the Maintenance and Airworthines s side of the equation:=0A=B7------- Identify maintenance are as to pay closer attention to=0Ao------ Re-torque gear legs at oil changes=0Ao------ Engine baffling=0Ao------ Tai lwheel spring attach bracket=0Ao------ Control linkages, rod-en ds and use of washers=0Ao------ Engine mounts=0Ao---- -- Empennage and spar attach points- =0A=B7------- Real ize the additional strain placed on aircraft used regularly for aerobatics and increase inspection requirements=0A=B7------- Have an exp erienced and concerned independent person look over your aircraft=0Ao-- ---- the builder may have a prejudiced eye when it comes to inspect ing and maintaining their own aircraft=0Ao------ a non-builder may not have the experience or know how to maintain their own aircraft=0Ao ------ It may be hard on the pride, but having a critical but c onsiderate individual inspect our airplanes may help point out deficiencies .. In any case, it helps start an exchange of information.=0Ao---- -- Put together a =93for fun=94 fly-in competition where we all look at each other=92s planes to- see who can find the most items that could be improved=85?=0A-=0AConclusion:- It was worthwhile time spent with other Rocketeers.- The session was well received and most came away feeling po sitive and better informed. Many expressed an interest in continuing with s imilar gatherings and new measures focused on Rocket safety. We fly, or are building to fly one of the best sport aircraft on the planet. To be able t o maximize the thrill of flying this great aircraft safely, and be able to encourage others to do the same would be a great goal!=0A-=0AJeff Linebau gh=0Ajefflinebaugh@bellsouth.net=0A-=0A -=0A -=0Ahttp://www.matronics ================0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: capmrp <capmrp(at)cfu.net>
Subject: Re: airport managers
Date: Aug 23, 2008
I'm afraid the main qualification for airport managers these days is the ability to do the bidding of the local city council AND to pull in as many federal funds as possible. Once they get good at those two, they suddenly find themselves qualified to pass judgement on what's good or not, for general aviation at large. Just amazing and just the kind of thing AOPA and EAA love to sink their teeth into. Go git 'em! Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 23, 2008
Subject: Re: North LAS Airport Management (lack of)
Being a pilot does not insure that one has good judgement. It does when it comes to airport management and operation! ALL airport managers should be pilots. Stan Sutterfield **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: MT propeller Care Kit
Date: Sep 08, 2008
I'm considering buying the care kit for the my prop, has anyone tried this MT care kit? 90 bucks seems high for a few ounces of sealer. Thanks, Jim Stone Louisville ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
Extreme hangar rash has claimed my right elevator. Since mine is an early one, all of the surfaces were .016 and I have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody have a spare? :) Rob Ray "Smokey" HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2008
From: Richard Lundin <rlundin46(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
If your interested in an RV 8 tail let me know. Best regards, Rick Lundin --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Smoky Ray wrote: > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 11:10 AM > Extreme hangar rash has claimed my right elevator. Since > mine is an early one, all of the surfaces were .016 and I > have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody have a spare? :) > > Rob Ray "Smokey" > HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
Thanks Rick. will do! Smokey --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Richard Lundin wrote: From: Richard Lundin <rlundin46(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:47 AM If your interested in an RV 8 tail let me know. Best regards, Rick Lundin --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Smoky Ray wrote: > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 11:10 AM > Extreme hangar rash has claimed my right elevator. Since > mine is an early one, all of the surfaces were .016 and I > have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody have a spare? :) > > Rob Ray "Smokey" > HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
In a message dated 9/8/2008 8:11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, smokyray(at)rocketmail.com writes:Extreme hangar rash has claimed my right elevator. Since mine is an early one, all of the surfaces were .016 and I have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody have a spare? :) Rob Ray "Smokey" HR2 **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
Hey Smokey I have an RV8 tail on mine, pretty happy with it, have seen a few for sale by guys who buy then give up. Probably a little heavier than a stock -4 tail but more weight back there could be a good thing. My W&B is fine solo and also have plenty of trim. I also have an F1 tail in my shop you can have cheep but I think you would be happier with an -8 tail. Kevin Shannon Extreme hangar rash has claimed my right elevator. Since mine is an early one, all of the surfaces were .016 and I have decided to put a new tail on. An ybody have a spare? :) Rob Ray "Smokey" HR2 **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator...
Date: Sep 09, 2008
From: lesdrag(at)aol.com
Hi Smokey, I used the pre-punched RV-7 elevators for the RV-8 HS on my HR2 and on the RV-6 HS on my RV-6A. Should work on the RV-4, except you'll need the HS tips from the RV-8, also. I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevator counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers -----Original Message----- From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> Sent: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 5:54 pm Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... Thanks Rick. will do! Smokey --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Richard Lundin wrote: From: Richard Lundin <rlundin46(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:47 AM If your interested in an RV 8 tail let me know. Best regards, Rick Lundin --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Smoky Ray wrote: > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator..........and SPEED!!!!
Date: Sep 10, 2008
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
Um. Clearly Smokey got in first, but if he's not interested, I might be. I've long been a little concerned about the tail on my Rocket. Hard to keep the thing below VA or VNO, in turbulence, when she's so FAST :) Incidentally, Tom's post has me thinking. I'm not sure how his Rocket is only good for 170 knots, but I'm presume there's a good reason. I've always thought mine was a tad slower than the numbers I've been reading - when people ask me how fast I cruise, I tell them, being pathologically honest, I cruise at 199 knots TAS. I've read about Rockets that cruise a lot faster than that...210 knots seems to be a common figure. I can't get more than 200 knots TAS under any circumstances, maybe 205 at sea level, 2700 RPM, WOT and full rich, which is an expensive way to get another 5 knots. I've got a Lycon IO540 C4B5, slightly tweaked to produce 280 hp, and a light (VFR) airframe. Anyone got any thoughts on how to get another 10 knots out of her? I HAVE noted one thing which makes me wonder. At any sort of cruise, there seems to be quite significant forward elevator. The front part of the elevator (the horn?) seems to be an inch or so above the front of the HS. If I was to tweak the incidence of my HS somehow, to get to a point that the elevator is neutral at high speed cruise, would that likely make her a little faster? I have two aerials, but otherwise a clean airframe. Anyone got any ideas on getting a little more speed? Feel free to email me offlist, andrew at active new zealand dot com. (Anti spam version - u guys can figure it out :) Also, GREAT to see the outputs from the OSH safety seminar. Lots of food for thought. Thanks very much, everyone who contributed... Andrew PS standing invite to New Zealand for Rocketeers is always there. Best Rocket flying in the world is down here in little old New Zealand, I reckon, if you'll excuse the parochialism. As you guys head into winter, if you're keen on a cool holiday and some kick-ass flying, well, you're talking to the right guy! Google Active New Zealand, or add a dot com at the end, and check out the sort of stuff we get up to down here in NZ. The hiking's great....but the flying's sublime!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lundin Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... If your interested in an RV 8 tail let me know. Best regards, Rick Lundin --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Smoky Ray wrote: > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 11:10 AM Extreme hangar rash has > claimed my right elevator. Since mine is an early one, all of the > surfaces were .016 and I have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody > have a spare? :) > > Rob Ray "Smokey" > HR2 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: elevators
Date: Sep 09, 2008
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu>
SNIP***** I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevator counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers ******SNIP I'm dying to know who swapped elevators and made these tests on the same day, under the same conditions, and is a good enough pilot to measure 2 knots accurately. I am skeptical that either tip would offer any real speed, although the RV-4 tips should be lighter due to longer arm... but even that isn't much. If it's speed you're after, maybe that old RV-4 tail IS the way to go. It's got a shorter VS that, in theory, should be less drag. Vince - RV-4 tail, and like it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator..........and SPEED!!!!
It's yours Andrew, thanks to Rick for advertising them. I'm building a set of larger RV4 elevators. According to someone who built a set, it makes the Rockets pitch authority similar to a light nose RV4. I'm also purchasing a HS from a friend who built an RV4 tail with the F-1 mods. -More speed is cool, but maneuverability, pitch control at low speed (lan ding on my 1800' strip!) are higher on my list. Heck, mine will do 200 knot s on the deck at 27 squared now, big tires, old airframe, 15 year old decea sed insects and all. Been to NZ, neat place, next time I'll call! Fair Dinkum! Smokey --- On Tue, 9/9/08, ACTIVE NZ - Andrew wrote: From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew <andrew(at)nzactive.com> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator..........and S PEED!!!! Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:57 PM Um. Clearly Smokey got in first, but if he's not interested, I might be. I've long been a little concerned about the tail on my Rocket. Hard to keep the thing below VA or VNO, in turbulence, when she's so FAST :) Incidentally, Tom's post has me thinking. I'm not sure how his Rocket is only good for 170 knots, but I'm presume there's a good reason. I've always thought mine was a tad slower than the numbers I've been reading - when people ask me how fast I cruise, I tell them, being pathologically honest, I cruise at 199 knots TAS. I've read about Rockets that cruise a lot faster than that...210 knots seems to be a common figure. I can't get more than 200 knots TAS under any circumstances, maybe 205 at sea level, 2700 RPM, WOT and full rich, which is an expensive way to get another 5 knots. I've got a Lycon IO540 C4B5, slightly tweaked to produce 280 hp, and a light (VFR) airframe. Anyone got any thoughts on how to get another 10 knots out of her? I HAVE noted one thing which makes me wonder. At any sort of cruise, there seems to be quite significant forward elevator. The front part of the elevator (the horn?) seems to be an inch or so above the front of the HS. If I was to tweak the incidence of my HS somehow, to get to a point that the elevator is neutral at high speed cruise, would that likely make her a little faster? I have two aerials, but otherwise a clean airframe. Anyone got any ideas on getting a little more speed? Feel free to email me offlist, andrew at active new zealand dot com. (Anti spam version - u guys can figure it out :) Also, GREAT to see the outputs from the OSH safety seminar. Lots of food for thought. Thanks very much, everyone who contributed... Andrew PS standing invite to New Zealand for Rocketeers is always there. Best Rocket flying in the world is down here in little old New Zealand, I reckon, if you'll excuse the parochialism. As you guys head into winter, if you're keen on a cool holiday and some kick-ass flying, well, you're talking to the right guy! Google Active New Zealand, or add a dot com at the end, and check out the sort of stuff we get up to down here in NZ. The hiking's great....but the flying's sublime!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lundin Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... If your interested in an RV 8 tail let me know. Best regards, Rick Lundin --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Smoky Ray wrote: > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Wanted: RV4/Rocket HS and elevator... > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 11:10 AM Extreme hangar rash has > claimed my right elevator. Since mine is an early one, all of the > surfaces were .016 and I have decided to put a new tail on. Anybody > have a spare? :) > > Rob Ray "Smokey" > HR2 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 09, 2008
Subject: Re: elevators
I think the diffrence is in the trailing edge construction, a sharp point VS the rounded over blunt end of bent sheet metal. That is what made the RV 9 faster than they expected. Think of the difference if all the control surfaces were done that way. Makes sense to me. Kevin Shannon SNIP***** I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevator counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers ******SNIP I'm dying to know who swapped elevators and made these tests on the same day, under the same conditions, and is a good enough pilot to measure 2 knots accurately. I am skeptical that either tip would offer any real speed, although the RV-4 tips should be lighter due to longer arm... but even that isn't much. If it's speed you're after, maybe that old RV-4 tail IS the way to go. It's got a shorter VS that, in theory, should be less drag. Vince - RV-4 tail, and like it. **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: elevators
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Sep 09, 2008
"?Think of the difference if all the control surfaces were done that wa y." Nooooo. There is a reason they are NOT all done that way. The speed does not come for free. You get a significant increase in con trol input required to deflect at higher speed. Mike Im7shannon(at)aol.co m Sent by: To owner-rocket-list rocket-list(at)matronics.com -server@matronics cc .com Subj ect Re: Rocket-List: elevators 09/09/2008 12:05 PM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com I think the diffrence is in the trailing edge construction, a sharp poi nt VS the rounded over blunt end of bent sheet metal. That is what made th e RV 9 faster than they expected. Think of the difference if all the control surfaces were done that way. Makes sense to me. Kevin Shannon SNIP***** I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevato r counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers ******SNIP I'm dying to know who swapped elevators and made these tests on the sam e day, under the same conditions, and is a good enough pilot to measure 2 knots accurately. I am skeptical that either tip would offer any real speed, although the RV-4 tips should be lighter due to longer arm... bu t even that isn't much. If it's speed you're after, maybe that old RV-4 tail IS the way to go. It's got a shorter VS that, in theory, should be less drag. Vince - RV-4 tail, and like it. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: elevators
Date: Sep 10, 2008
From: lesdrag(at)aol.com
The same round trailing edge was used on both sets of elevators. Jim Ayers -----Original Message----- From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 9:05 am Subject: Re: Rocket-List: elevators I think the diffrence is in the trailing edge construction, a sharp point VS the rounded over blunt end of bent sheet metal. That is what made the RV 9 faster than they expected. Think of the difference if all the control surfaces were done that way. Makes sense to me. Kevin Shannon ? SNIP***** I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevator counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers ******SNIP I'm dying to know who swapped elevators and made these tests on the same day, under the same conditions, and is a good enough pilot to measure 2 knots accurately.? I am skeptical that either tip would offer any real speed, although the RV-4 tips should be lighter due to longer arm... but even that isn't much. If it's speed you're after, maybe that old RV-4 tail IS the way to go. It's got a shorter VS that, in theory, should be less drag. Vince - RV-4 tail, and like it. ? Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: elevators
Date: Sep 10, 2008
From: lesdrag(at)aol.com
I didn't do the testing for that data.? However, using density altitude and a consistent test procedure works pretty good. Jim Ayers -----Original Message----- From: Frazier, Vincent A <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 6:11 am Subject: Rocket-List: elevators SNIP***** I've heard it adds 2 knots in comparision to the RV-4 elevator counterweighted tips. Regards, Jim Ayers ******SNIP I'm dying to know who swapped elevators and made these tests on the same day, under the same conditions, and is a good enough pilot to measure 2 knots accurately. I am skeptical that either tip would offer any real speed, although the RV-4 tips should be lighter due to longer arm... but even that isn't much. If it's speed you're after, maybe that old RV-4 tail IS the way to go. It's got a shorter VS that, in theory, should be less drag. Vince - RV-4 tail, and like it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 10, 2008
Subject: Re: elevators
In a message dated 9/9/2008 9:03:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lesdrag(at)aol.com writes: The same round trailing edge was used on both sets of elevators. Jim Ayers **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 12, 2008
Subject: Re: tails and trailing edges
In a message dated 9/11/2008 11:37:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes. That's not nice, Kevin **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my
HR2 fa
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Sep 13, 2008
What engine do you have. Your speed sounds typical for a 250-260HP. Cleaning up all the items you mentioned might give you 3-5 knots. I had the 250 HP IO 540 and saw 195 KTS TAS below 10,000 feet at max gross. At 13,000 I could get 200 KTS at Max Gross and with just me and half fuel I would see 205 KTS TAS. Also all Rocket drivers lie about their speed. Well maybe embellish a little. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4079#204079 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my
HR2 faster Andrew: Two sources of information come to mind, neither directly associated with Rockets but the aerodynamics and engine recommendations wil l be very similar. The book "Speed with Economy" by Kent Paser is excellent. The book is centered on his experiments with his Midget Mustang, but the results were spectacular. It must be said that he tried a lot of ideas an d clearly spent hundreds of hours on his ideas and on various projects, but his results speak for themselves. The book is not particularly sophisticated, with hand drawings and relatively poor photographs, but (it seems to me), it is also a labor of love wherein the author was all about sharing the information and results he developed and not about putting together an artsy coffee table book on the subject. It is an inexpensive book and worth every NZ penny you pay for it! The other source are the CAFE Foundation Reports and Aircraft Performance Reports (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_home.php) in general and th e one on Dave Ander's RV-4 in particular. His RV-4 is faster than any Rocket (I think) and though he has gone to very great lengths to get all the speed out of it he can, there is a wealth of ideas in both the CAFE APR on his aircraft (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/RV-4.pdf) and in his own writings. Anders did 250.71 mph in his IO-306 powered RV-4 during the CAFE triathlon trials. His airplane is even faster than that now, I understand. You will have a long way to go to catch up to either of these guys, but then, they are true trail blazers in speed mods on our size airplanes. Just found most of my "speed notes" in the big database I add to everytime I come across something interesting about RV's and Rockets. Sorry, this is long, but these are some of my notes on the subject including the basics of a briefing that Dave Anders himself gave at an EAA meeting some time back that someone recorded. " *From Dave Anders Notes:* Propeller - Inlet - Cowl relationship 1) propeller thrust distribution for inlet location. 2) boundary layer thickness at back edge of spinner and shank of the propeller. 3) differential pressure across inlet. 4) reverse flow on standard inlets. 5) prop extension to decrease flat plate area. Inlet (stagnation inlet) 1) shape - round = smallest surface area/volume easiest to provide best seal to plenum. 2) size - calculated from mass flow required for BTU from engine chart. Mass flow = area X velocity X plenum efficiency Oversized inlets >velocity resulting in >pressure thus >cowl drag around th e inlets. 3) round lip edge to decrease inlet stall and reduce inlet drag Plenum design 1) uses Bernoulli's Law: volume = >velocity = >pressure 2) Greater *p across the cylinders carries off more BTU. 3) diffuser can diverge 5 deg/side =B1 (air flow remains attached due to >Velocity and >pressure) 4) A = area of inlet (calculated by mass flow requirement) A = area at the rear of the effect diffuser A = area over the cylinder and head, A area = A area 5) slowing the free stream velocity 10 - 40% >Cooling drag losses. 6) there should be no sharp bends or edges to minimize flow separation. (My note: there's less leakage, no doubt) Outlet - starts under the cylinders 1) area as small as possible to re-accelerate the air to free stream condition to >drag. 2) Convergence zone leads to exit fuselage/firewall airfoil rounded gentle curved sides should be ~ 35 deg. 3) shape - NACA studies - straight sided rectangular shallow angle converging ramp - ramp as parallel to free stream flow as possible at end - width to depth ratio of ramp a) 7 to 1 for cooling systems b) 1 to 1 for exhausts (augmenter) 4) inlet to outlet ratio: what's recommended, what works & why. a) stock Van's: RV4 ratio ~ 39sq" X 60sq" = 150% RV6 ratio ~ 44sq" X 56sq" = 127% (Dave's notes go on; he describes what he feels is a better 76% ratio, eg smaller outlet than inlet. Obviously low speed climb condition is critical & req's more area than high speed level cond.) ******** Without debate, the hard DATA: No leaks + Smaller inlets + Better shaped inlets + Better location inlets = less cooling drag More esoteric but true: Better flowing round inlets (nozzles) with airfoil profile (not laminar but not a swirling reverse flow mess) + Better area transitions (which could be better still **) = less cooling drag ** Now my opinion, no data sorry, I'm convinced two separate L/R plenums ar e better than one big dog house plenum (Sam James). Area transition is larger than needed. Data? RV buddies have great luck with two separate plenums. Yo u just don't need air over the middle of the case. Drag reduction is unknown, it may be small but cools nicely, so at least there's no loss & it weighs less. Another area I'd improve, leakage around the spinner. Min spinner/cow l gap is a common approach, but a seal behind the gap could reduce leakage into the lower cowl, which reduces efficiency. If air flow is out of the spinner gap it causes external plume-interference drag. Down side? Sealing is hard, and we're talking nitpick small gains, unlike the known large gain of a cowl/ring/diffuser/plenum system. Gaining 6 or 15 mph is like finding 10 or 15 HP with out burning more gas! 4. When you give the speed increase from a mod, don't just say you got 5 mp h more, but say what the before and after speeds were so the percent increase can be calculated. The percent increases from each mod, expressed as a decimal, (3.3% = 1.033) can be multiplied together to give the overall increase which can be expected. One thing of note. I have noticed in my testing of RVs that the low 4.8:1 aspect ratio of the -6 causes much increased induced loss at higher density altitudes with its lower power/speed. Lower density, lower speed, higher CL, higher induced loss! As the plane's drag is decreased from mods, and the speed increases, the greater dynamic pressure will allow the wing to operate at a lower CL and decrease this loss, thus giving slightly more speed than would be expected just from the mod's percentage. For more speed from wing mods - down low - decrease area; up high, increase span with slashed tips that give more span/area!" Hope this helps. I think there is more and perhaps more specific info on Dave Anders' work on the internet. I just don't have it in front of me right now. Best of luck and be sure to share your results! P.S. Are you on the South Island or North?? Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my
HR2 faster
Date: Sep 13, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Lee - thanks for your comprehensive post. I have the same interest as Andrew In my build. My first thought was that the engine is "advertised" as 280 and yet a dyno test might show significantly less output (as much as 8% less). Barnaby Wainfan did a remarkable presentation at OSH '08 and thrilled the crowd on this subject by his offer that Marc Cook and Kitplanes Magazine is going to offer his entire 36 months of installments on DVD. Power always seems to get attention, then the prop and eventually all the little things that add to Real Drag Reduction. "Speed Notes" is another way of quantifying saving fuel consumption. No mention was made of the final Empty Weight. Weight creep with a resultant change of CG is also a factor. John Cox From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 faster Andrew: Two sources of information come to mind, neither directly associated with Rockets but the aerodynamics and engine recommendations will be very similar. The book "Speed with Economy" by Kent Paser is excellent. The book is centered on his experiments with his Midget Mustang, but the results were spectacular. It must be said that he tried a lot of ideas and clearly spent hundreds of hours on his ideas and on various projects, but his results speak for themselves. The book is not particularly sophisticated, with hand drawings and relatively poor photographs, but (it seems to me), it is also a labor of love wherein the author was all about sharing the information and results he developed and not about putting together an artsy coffee table book on the subject. It is an inexpensive book and worth every NZ penny you pay for it! The other source are the CAFE Foundation Reports and Aircraft Performance Reports (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_home.php) in general and the one on Dave Ander's RV-4 in particular. His RV-4 is faster than any Rocket (I think) and though he has gone to very great lengths to get all the speed out of it he can, there is a wealth of ideas in both the CAFE APR on his aircraft (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/RV-4.pdf) and in his own writings. Anders did 250.71 mph in his IO-306 powered RV-4 during the CAFE triathlon trials. His airplane is even faster than that now, I understand. You will have a long way to go to catch up to either of these guys, but then, they are true trail blazers in speed mods on our size airplanes. Just found most of my "speed notes" in the big database I add to everytime I come across something interesting about RV's and Rockets. Sorry, this is long, but these are some of my notes on the subject including the basics of a briefing that Dave Anders himself gave at an EAA meeting some time back that someone recorded. " >From Dave Anders Notes: Propeller - Inlet - Cowl relationship 1) propeller thrust distribution for inlet location. 2) boundary layer thickness at back edge of spinner and shank of the propeller. 3) differential pressure across inlet. 4) reverse flow on standard inlets. 5) prop extension to decrease flat plate area. Inlet (stagnation inlet) 1) shape - round = smallest surface area/volume easiest to provide best seal to plenum. 2) size - calculated from mass flow required for BTU from engine chart. Mass flow = area X velocity X plenum efficiency Oversized inlets >velocity resulting in >pressure thus >cowl drag around the inlets. 3) round lip edge to decrease inlet stall and reduce inlet drag Plenum design 1) uses Bernoulli's Law: volume = >velocity = >pressure 2) Greater *p across the cylinders carries off more BTU. 3) diffuser can diverge 5 deg/side =B1 (air flow remains attached due to >Velocity and >pressure) 4) A = area of inlet (calculated by mass flow requirement) A = area at the rear of the effect diffuser A = area over the cylinder and head, A area = A area 5) slowing the free stream velocity 10 - 40% >Cooling drag losses. 6) there should be no sharp bends or edges to minimize flow separation. (My note: there's less leakage, no doubt) Outlet - starts under the cylinders 1) area as small as possible to re-accelerate the air to free stream condition to >drag. 2) Convergence zone leads to exit fuselage/firewall airfoil rounded gentle curved sides should be ~ 35 deg. 3) shape - NACA studies - straight sided rectangular shallow angle converging ramp - ramp as parallel to free stream flow as possible at end - width to depth ratio of ramp a) 7 to 1 for cooling systems b) 1 to 1 for exhausts (augmenter) 4) inlet to outlet ratio: what's recommended, what works & why. a) stock Van's: RV4 ratio ~ 39sq" X 60sq" = 150% RV6 ratio ~ 44sq" X 56sq" = 127% (Dave's notes go on; he describes what he feels is a better 76% ratio, eg smaller outlet than inlet. Obviously low speed climb condition is critical & req's more area than high speed level cond.) ****** Without debate, the hard DATA: No leaks + Smaller inlets + Better shaped inlets + Better location inlets = less cooling drag More esoteric but true: Better flowing round inlets (nozzles) with airfoil profile (not laminar but not a swirling reverse flow mess) + Better area transitions (which could be better still **) = less cooling drag ** Now my opinion, no data sorry, I'm convinced two separate L/R plenums are better than one big dog house plenum (Sam James). Area transition is larger than needed. Data? RV buddies have great luck with two separate plenums. You just don't need air over the middle of the case. Drag reduction is unknown, it may be small but cools nicely, so at least there's no loss & it weighs less. Another area I'd improve, leakage around the spinner. Min spinner/cowl gap is a common approach, but a seal behind the gap could reduce leakage into the lower cowl, which reduces efficiency. If air flow is out of the spinner gap it causes external plume-interference drag. Down side? Sealing is hard, and we're talking nitpick small gains, unlike the known large gain of a cowl/ring/diffuser/plenum system. Gaining 6 or 15 mph is like finding 10 or 15 HP with out burning more gas! 4. When you give the speed increase from a mod, don't just say you got 5 mph more, but say what the before and after speeds were so the percent increase can be calculated. The percent increases from each mod, expressed as a decimal, (3.3% = 1.033) can be multiplied together to give the overall increase which can be expected. One thing of note. I have noticed in my testing of RVs that the low 4.8:1 aspect ratio of the -6 causes much increased induced loss at higher density altitudes with its lower power/speed. Lower density, lower speed, higher CL, higher induced loss! As the plane's drag is decreased from mods, and the speed increases, the greater dynamic pressure will allow the wing to operate at a lower CL and decrease this loss, thus giving slightly more speed than would be expected just from the mod's percentage. For more speed from wing mods - down low - decrease area; up high, increase span with slashed tips that give more span/area!" Hope this helps. I think there is more and perhaps more specific info on Dave Anders' work on the internet. I just don't have it in front of me right now. Best of luck and be sure to share your results! P.S. Are you on the South Island or North?? Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my
HR2 faster Lee, - Awesome post! Steve Wittman once told me when he needed more speed he t rimmed his prop an inch, and took off his shoes! His 1st C-85 would turn 40 00 RPM. Dave Anders IO-360 was built by LyCon and the special Hartzell he r uns turns 2850+ during races (230HP). Nemesis 1 also turned 3500-4000 rpm. My point is exactly what Tom stated, the prop and engine have ALOT to do wi th speed. My 12 year old stock HR2 with a C4B5 with LyCon 10.4:1/Hartzell "D" 2 blade I have the following numbers. 1: Cowl: I need the cooling, it's 90F at Thanksgiving here! Stock with tigh t baffles, trimmed lower cowl, RTV everywhere! 2. Wheelpants: I need bigger tires for my rough 1800' strip, but my Van's P R pants on the 380's work great. Off to On yielded 7 knots. 3. Temps: I trimmed my cowling to allow climb CHT's not to exceed 400F. 4. Speed: Low altitude 27 squared 0 Knots, many GPH! --- 8500' 20/2300 = 185KTAS at 11 GPH. For me the best news is at 16"MP and 2150 I can cruise at 155 knots at 7GPH all day and my CHT's never get above 300F and oil stays at 180 on the hott est days. V/R Smokey --- On Sat, 9/13/08, Lee Logan wrote: From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to mak e my HR2 faster Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 2:30 PM Andrew:- Two sources of information come to mind, neither directly associ ated with Rockets but the aerodynamics and engine recommendations will be v ery similar.- The book "Speed with Economy" by Kent Paser is excellent. - The book is centered on his experiments with his Midget Mustang, but th e results were spectacular.-- It must be said that he tried a lot of id eas and clearly spent hundreds of hours on his ideas and on various project s, but his results speak for themselves.- The book is not particularly so phisticated, with hand drawings and relatively poor photographs, but (it se ems to me), it is also a labor of love wherein the author was all about sha ring the information and results he developed and not about putting togethe r an artsy coffee table book on the subject.- It is an inexpensive book a nd worth every NZ penny you pay for it! - The other source are the CAFE Foundation-Reports and Aircraft Performance Reports-(http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_home.php)- in general a nd the one on Dave Ander's RV-4 in particular.- His RV-4 is faster than a ny Rocket (I think) and though he has gone to very great lengths to get all the speed out of it he can, there is a wealth of ideas in both the CAFE AP R on his aircraft (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/RV-4.pdf)- and in his own writings.- Anders did 250.71 mph in his IO-306 powered RV-4 duri ng the CAFE triathlon trials.- His airplane is even faster than that now, I understand.- You will have a long way to go to catch up to either of t hese guys, but then, they are true trail blazers in speed mods on our size airplanes. Just found most of my "speed notes" in the big database I add to everytime I come across something interesting about RV's and Rockets.- Sorry, this is long, but these are some of my notes on the subject including the basics of a briefing that Dave Anders himself gave at an EAA meeting some time ba ck that someone recorded.- - " >From Dave Anders Notes: Propeller - Inlet - Cowl relationship 1) propeller thrust distribution for inlet location. 2) boundary layer thickness at back edge of spinner and shank of the propeller. 3) differential pressure across inlet. 4) reverse flow on standard inlets. 5) prop extension to decrease flat plate area. Inlet (stagnation inlet) 1) shape - round = smallest surface area/volume easiest to provide best seal to plenum. 2) size - calculated from mass flow required for BTU from engine chart. Mass flow = area X velocity X plenum efficiency Oversized inlets >velocity resulting in >pressure thus >cowl drag around th e inlets. 3) round lip edge to decrease inlet stall and reduce inlet drag Plenum design 1) uses Bernoulli's Law: volume = >velocity = >pressure 2) Greater *p across the cylinders carries off more BTU. 3) diffuser can diverge 5 deg/side =B1 (air flow remains attached due to >V elocity and >pressure) 4) A = area of inlet (calculated by mass flow requirement) A = area at the rear of the effect diffuser A = area over the cylinder and head, A area = A area 5) slowing the free stream velocity 10 - 40% >Cooling drag losses. 6) there should be no sharp bends or edges to minimize flow separation. (My note: there's less leakage, no doubt) Outlet - starts under the cylinders 1) area as small as possible to re-accelerate the air to free stream condition to >drag. 2) Convergence zone leads to exit fuselage/firewall airfoil rounded gentle curved sides should be ~ 35 deg. 3) shape - NACA studies - straight sided rectangular shallow angle converging ramp - ramp as parallel to free stream flow as possible at end - width to depth ratio of ramp a) 7 to 1 for cooling systems b) 1 to 1 for exhausts (augmenter) 4) inlet to outlet ratio: what's recommended, what works & why. a) stock Van's: RV4 ratio ~ 39sq" X 60sq" = 150% RV6 ratio ~ 44sq" X 56sq" = 127% (Dave's notes go on; he describes what he feels is a better 76% ratio, eg s maller outlet than inlet. Obviously low speed climb condition is critical & req's more area than high speed level cond.) ****** Without debate, the hard DATA: No leaks + Smaller inlets + Better shaped inlets + Better location inlets = less cooling drag More esoteric but true: Better flowing round inlets (nozzles) with airfoil profile (not laminar but not a swirling reverse flow mess) + Better area transitions (which could be better still **) = less cooling drag ** Now my opinion, no data sorry, I'm convinced two separate L/R plenums ar e better than one big dog house plenum (Sam James). Area transition is larg er than needed. Data? RV buddies have great luck with two separate plenums. You just don't need air over the middle of the case. Drag reduction is unk nown, it may be small but cools nicely, so at least there's no loss & it we ighs less. Another area I'd improve, leakage around the spinner. Min spinne r/cowl gap is a common approach, but a seal behind the gap could reduce lea kage into the lower cowl, which reduces efficiency. If air flow is out of t he spinner gap it causes external plume-interference drag. Down side? Seali ng is hard, and we're talking nitpick small gains, unlike the known large g ain of a cowl/ring/diffuser/plenum system. Gaining 6 or 15 mph is like find ing 10 or 15 HP with out burning more gas! - 4. When you give the speed increase from a mod, don't just say you got 5 mp h more, but say what the before and after speeds were so the percent increa se can be calculated. The percent increases from each mod, expressed as a d ecimal, (3.3% = 1.033) can be multiplied together to give the overall inc rease which can be expected. One thing of note. I have noticed in my testin g of RVs that the low 4.8:1 aspect ratio of the -6 causes much increased in duced loss at higher density altitudes with its lower power/speed. Lower de nsity, lower speed, higher CL, higher induced loss! As the plane's drag is decreased from mods, and the speed increases, the greater dynamic pressure will allow the wing to operate at a lower CL and decrease this loss, thus g iving slightly more speed than would be expected just from the mod's percen tage. For more speed from wing mods - down low - decrease area; up high, in crease span with slashed tips that give more span/area!" - Hope this helps.- I think there is more and perhaps more specific info on Dave Anders' work on the internet.- I just don't have it in front of me right now. - Best of luck and be sure to share your results!- - P.S.- Are you on the South Island or North?? - Regards, - Lee... =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: conditonal inspection checklist
Date: Sep 15, 2008
Hey Guys, Well I survived my first year in the Rocket, 140 hours or so and lots of fun. To keep it safe and legal for the next year, I'll need to do a conditional inspection. Anyone have a checklist they like and is set up for the Rocket? Just send it to me direct. Thank, Jim Stone HRII Louisville KY ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: conditonal inspection checklist
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2008
Here is a pretty good one Jim. http://mstewart.net/Downloads/Annual%20Condition%20Checklist%20Template .doc >From here. http://mstewart.net/Downloads/downloads.htm Mike: "Jim Stone" To Sent by: owner-rocket-list cc -server@matronics .com Subj ect Rocket-List: conditonal inspecti on checklist 09/15/2008 08:40 PM Please respond to rocket-list@matro nics.com Hey Guys, Well I survived my first year in the Rocket, 140 hours or so and lots o f fun. To keep it safe and legal for the next year, I'll need to do a conditional inspection. Anyone have a checklist they like and is set u p for the Rocket? Just send it to me direct. Thank, Jim Stone HRII Louisville KY ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Branden Hartman <hondaguy46041(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Continental TSIO-520
Date: Sep 27, 2008
Anyone on here have much experience with these engines? They seem to be so rt of rare=2C however from what i have gathered they are similar to the 550 =2C but have a shorter stroke. They are around 315 hp=2C depending on mode l. The reason i ask is that i would really like to go with a continental=2C bu t would also like the turbo for those hot summer days. The TIO-550 is easi er to find but it seems like it maybe a little too much for the airframe=2C =2C=2C=2C=2C By the way a turbo 520 will run about the same cost as a 540 if you ever tr ack one down. _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on the go. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Continental TSIO-520
Drop-Mark Frederick an email, he has one in an F-1, and there are two oth er F-1's flying with Continentals. - You can find him on the Team Rocket Blog. - Smokey HR2 --- On Sat, 9/27/08, Branden Hartman wrote: From: Branden Hartman <hondaguy46041(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Rocket-List: Continental TSIO-520 Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 10:53 PM #yiv1849457965 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1849457965 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} Anyone on here have much experience with these engines?- They seem to be sort of rare, however from what i have gathered they are similar to the 550 , but have a shorter stroke.- They are around 315 hp, depending on model. - The reason i ask is that-i would really like to go with a continental, bu t would also like the turbo for those hot summer days.- The TIO-550 is ea sier to find but it-seems like it maybe a little too much for the airfram e,,,,, - By the way-a turbo 520 will run about the same cost as a 540 if you ever track one down. See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the go. See Now =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2008
From: Brian Adams <md11plt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Insurance questions...........again
Hello, I am going to have someone finish up my project due to no time and he is requiring builders insurance. This is a reasonable request and is no problem. But I have only one quote for around $1700. Is this too high? This also it does not cover having it towed to his place. Anyone know of who and the cost ($100,000 hull for now) for builders insurance. And maybe who now is doing flight insurance on the rocket. After the last accident no one wants to cover them. Brian Adams Original HRII ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Insurance questions...........again
Date: Sep 28, 2008
Brian, That seems high, a work around might be to lower the insured amount if you don't have avionics, engine and prop installed. With all or some of the big items safely stored elsewhere, you could now insure the hull for what you have in it, or a bit more. I paid a lot less and was adament about coverage for the one time trip to the airport. I just renewed with London. My agent said all others declined due to the existing unsettled claim. I paid 4k my first year, and now am paying 3400 the second year for 120k hull value. The price would go up to 4k if I use 140 as the hull value. Good luck trying to find someone to insure you and with your final stages in getting your Rocket finished. I don't know what accident has ruined the Harmon Rocket reputation but I would sure like to know. BTW, I am a retired Navy Fighter guy, a UPS 757/767 Captain, and have in the neighborhood of 8000 hours total with 150 time in type, with no mishaps are claims. If the insurance companies are declining coverage with my experience, I have to assume it's the airplane that is high risk not the pilot. My buddy has an RV-4 and he pays 1400 per year but it is only work half of a Rocket. I suspect we may be at the point where you can only buy liability for new policies. BTW,I have a great agent who worked hard for me, his name Mike Pratt at 502-905-8747 mpratt(at)jmpinsurance.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Adams" <md11plt(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 12:05 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Insurance questions...........again > > Hello, > > I am going to have someone finish up my project due to no time and > he is requiring builders insurance. This is a reasonable request and is > no problem. But I have only one quote for around $1700. Is this too > high? This also it does not cover having it towed to his place. > > Anyone know of who and the cost ($100,000 hull for now) for builders > insurance. And maybe who now is doing flight insurance on the rocket. > After the last accident no one wants to cover them. > > Brian Adams > Original HRII > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Linebaugh <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 09/27/08
Date: Sep 28, 2008
I paid $1000 for 1 year builders insurance ($100k hull) through Falcon during my build. I would also check Cannon and see what they can do. $1700 seems too high. Jeff jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net Sent from iPhone On Sep 28, 2008, at 1:57, Rocket-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest > formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked > Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII > version > of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-09-27&Archive=Rocket > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-09-27&Archive=Rocket > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Rocket-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 09/27/08: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 03:53 PM - Continental TSIO-520 (Branden Hartman) > 2. 04:47 PM - Re: Continental TSIO-520 (Smoky Ray) > 3. 09:05 PM - Insurance questions...........again (Brian Adams) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Branden Hartman <hondaguy46041(at)hotmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Continental TSIO-520 > > > Anyone on here have much experience with these engines? They seem > to be so > rt of rare=2C however from what i have gathered they are similar to > the 550 > =2C but have a shorter stroke. They are around 315 hp=2C depending > on mode > l. > > The reason i ask is that i would really like to go with a > continental=2C bu > t would also like the turbo for those hot summer days. The TIO-550 > is easi > er to find but it seems like it maybe a little too much for the > airframe=2C > =2C=2C=2C=2C > > By the way a turbo 520 will run about the same cost as a 540 if you > ever tr > ack one down. > _________________________________________________________________ > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C > work=2C or on > the go. > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Continental TSIO-520 > > Drop-Mark Frederick an email, he has one in an F-1, and there are > two oth > er F-1's flying with Continentals. > - > You can find him on the Team Rocket Blog. > - > Smokey > HR2 > > --- On Sat, 9/27/08, Branden Hartman > wrote: > > From: Branden Hartman <hondaguy46041(at)hotmail.com> > Subject: Rocket-List: Continental TSIO-520 > > > #yiv1849457965 .hmmessage P > { > margin:0px;padding:0px;} > #yiv1849457965 { > FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} > > Anyone on here have much experience with these engines?- They seem > to be > sort of rare, however from what i have gathered they are similar to > the 550 > , but have a shorter stroke.- They are around 315 hp, depending on > model. > - > The reason i ask is that-i would really like to go with a > continental, bu > t would also like the turbo for those hot summer days.- The TIO-550 > is ea > sier to find but it-seems like it maybe a little too much for the > airfram > e,,,,, > - > By the way-a turbo 520 will run about the same cost as a 540 if you > ever > track one down. > > > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or > on the > go. See Now > > > =0A=0A=0A > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Brian Adams <md11plt(at)sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Rocket-List: Insurance questions...........again > > > Hello, > > I am going to have someone finish up my project due to no time and > he is requiring builders insurance. This is a reasonable request > and is > no problem. But I have only one quote for around $1700. Is this too > high? This also it does not cover having it towed to his place. > > Anyone know of who and the cost ($100,000 hull for now) for > builders > insurance. And maybe who now is doing flight insurance on the rocket. > After the last accident no one wants to cover them. > > Brian Adams > Original HRII > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: rocket projects for sale
Date: Sep 28, 2008
I have a friend looking for a Rocket project that is up for sale or soon will be. Please let know if you you happen to know of one. Jim Stone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Mokry" <robmokry(at)covad.net>
Subject: RE Rocket Insurance - 09/28/08
Date: Sep 29, 2008
"I don't know what accident has ruined the Harmon Rocket reputation but I would sure like to know." "My agent said all others declined due to the existing unsettled claim." Does anyone know the particulars? My insurance is coming due and would like to know the talking points. Thanks Rob From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Insurance questions...........again Brian, That seems high, a work around might be to lower the insured amount if you don't have avionics, engine and prop installed. With all or some of the big items safely stored elsewhere, you could now insure the hull for what you have in it, or a bit more. I paid a lot less and was adament about coverage for the one time trip to the airport. I just renewed with London. My agent said all others declined due to the existing unsettled claim. I paid 4k my first year, and now am paying 3400 the second year for 120k hull value. The price would go up to 4k if I use 140 as the hull value. Good luck trying to find someone to insure you and with your final stages in getting your Rocket finished. I don't know what accident has ruined the Harmon Rocket reputation but I would sure like to know. BTW, I am a retired Navy Fighter guy, a UPS 757/767 Captain, and have in the neighborhood of 8000 hours total with 150 time in type, with no mishaps are claims. If the insurance companies are declining coverage with my experience, I have to assume it's the airplane that is high risk not the pilot. My buddy has an RV-4 and he pays 1400 per year but it is only work half of a Rocket. I suspect we may be at the point where you can only buy liability for new policies. BTW,I have a great agent who worked hard for me, his name Mike Pratt at 502-905-8747 mpratt(at)jmpinsurance.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Continental TSIO-520
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2008
I had GTSIO 520Ks in a twin commander 435HP each and TSIOJs in a Cessna 414 (I think 310 HP) Great engines, reliable and bullet proof. Don't know about the Cs. I would be cautiou some of the early 520 series had a problem with the cases cracking till they dowelled them and finally beefed them up. I agree you should talk to Mark as I am not certain the engine mount for the 550 will work on the 520. Also might affect the cowl and where you willput the turbo?????? -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6710#206710 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RE Rocket Insurance - 09/28/08
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2008
The morning of the day I called to insure my F1 someone had just punched one throuh the roof of a home in California. I had to go without ins for a year and when it came back it was HIGH>. Don't know which accident your broker is referring to but just about any accident really makes the ins market turbulent for awhile. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6711#206711 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2008
From: Brian Adams <md11plt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: RE Rocket Insurance - 09/28/08
Rob, I too am not sure which accident he is talking about, but this one came up on the NTSB web site and was about 3 months ago and was not reported here. NTSB Identification: *NYC08LA222* 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Friday, June 20, 2008 in Woodbine, NJ Aircraft: Dennis P. McGurk F1 Rocket, registration: N623BL Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On June 20, 2008, at 1943 eastern daylight time, an amateur-built F1 Rocket, N623BL, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain while maneuvering near Woodbine Municipal Airport (1N4), Woodbine, New Jersey. The certificated private pilot and passenger were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the local personal flight conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. According to witnesses, just prior to the accident, they saw the airplane in a "steep climb" when they heard the engine "lose power." The airplane then "nosed down," entered a spin, and the witnesses heard the engine resume power. The airplane then struck power lines before it impacted the ground in a nose-low attitude. Examination of the accident site and airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector revealed both occupants were wearing parachutes. All major components of the airplane were accounted for at the scene. The airplane came to rest inverted, on a 090-degree magnetic heading, and a postcrash fire had occurred. Flight control continuity was established for all flight controls, and no evidence of in-flight structural failure or in-flight fire was discovered. Examination of the engine revealed that it had been modified from its original design. No evidence of any preimpact mechanical malfunction was discovered. The engine was relatively intact; however, the oil sump, and the push rods for cylinders No. 1 and No. 4 sustained impact damage. Examination of the upper spark plugs revealed that they were of an automotive type. Their electrodes were gray in color. The crankshaft was rotated by hand, and thumb compression was obtained on cylinder Nos. 2, 3, 5, and 6. Thumb compression was not obtained on cylinders No. 1 and No. 4 because of impact damage to the push rods, but movement was observed in both cylinders. There was also movement of the rear accessory gear, and the engine driven fuel pump's operability was verified during rotation of the crankshaft. The ignition system for the upper spark plugs was powered by an electronic ignition unit. Examination of the unit revealed that it had sustained impact damage and was inoperable. The ignition system for the lower plugs was of standard design, and was powered by a magneto. It was found separated from the engine, and was also impact damaged. It would however, produce spark from all six ignition lead towers when rotated by hand. Examination of the fuel injection system revealed that the fuel injector had broken off its mounting stub. The fuel injector's inlet finger screen was clear of debris, and had a trace amount of fuel within the injector finger screen chamber. The air impact tubes and venturi were also free of debris, and the throttle linkage and associated air valve mixture arm moved freely. According to FAA records, the pilot held a private pilot certificate with ratings for airplane single-engine land. He reported 500 total hours of flight experience on his most recent application for a FAA third-class medical certificate, dated December 28, 2006. According to the FAA and the airplane kit manufacturer, the accident airplane received its experimental airworthiness certificate on September 20, 2007. At the time of the accident, the airplane had accrued approximately 190 total hours of operation. The wreckage was retained by the National Transportation Safety Board for further examination. A weather observation taken about 8 minutes prior to the accident, at Cape May County Airport (WWD), Wildwood, New Jersey, located 13 nautical miles southwest of the accident site, recorded the wind as 180 degrees at 10 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, sky clear, temperature 22 degrees Celsius, dew point 16 degrees Celsius, and an altimeter setting of 30.01 inches of mercury. Brian Adams HR II Orginal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CalBru(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2008
Subject: Re: RE Rocket "Accident"
Guys, I thought that I had ground looped my F1 out at Truckee on 9/10/08. This will probably come up on NTSB eventually. I thought this through in my mind quite a bit wondering what I had done wrong. We were slow, the TW had come down, when the plane just started going right, no matter how much L rudder I put in. The L MLG bent back and in about 15*, the L wing tagged the runway, and of course, upon leaving the pavement and decelerating into the dirt the tail came up for a quick prop strike, then back down. No injuries. As I drove a borrowed large truck and 30' trailer out there last Friday (from Salt Lake), I thought about the damage and realized that the TW has collapsed and twisted clockwise, where all of the momentum during the accident was turning everything counterclockwise. I had noticed that the TW had sheared the 2 AN3 bolts and rotated at the scene, but it was later that it dawned on me that it must have collapsed prior to the accident--in fact the TW failure caused the accident. The single arm Janzi TW steering arm obviously rotated during the failure from horizontal to vertical, thus placing pressure on the bottom of the rudder and forcing it to the right, thus causing the uncontrollable right turn! There is a hole punctured in the glass rudder bottom, probably from my Left foot jamming on the L rudder so hard. I was upset that I had damaged the plane, but when I thought it was my fault (even though I could not figure out why) I felt OK about the brain damage and expense of the repair. Now, knowing that a few cents worth of bolts failing caused the accident and aftermath, I'm kinda upset. Bottom line, Check your bolts which go through the TW assembly into the tail spring so you don't have a similar incident!!! The F1 is back in the hangar now, and I'll slowly figure out how to get it back in the air! Cal Brubaker **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2008
From: Smoky Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE Rocket Insurance - 09/28/08
My Rocket is insured as an RV4 as the data plate reflects. When it comes to coverage, shop around, try AIG. I use AUA, highly recommended. Smokey HR2 --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Rob Mokry wrote: From: Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)covad.net> Subject: Rocket-List: RE Rocket Insurance - 09/28/08 Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 12:09 PM "I don't know what accident has ruined the Harmon Rocket reputation but I would sure like to know." "My agent said all others declined due to the existing unsettled claim." Does anyone know the particulars? My insurance is coming due and would like to know the talking points. Thanks Rob From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Insurance questions...........again Brian, That seems high, a work around might be to lower the insured amount if you don't have avionics, engine and prop installed. With all or some of the big items safely stored elsewhere, you could now insure the hull for what you have in it, or a bit more. I paid a lot less and was adament about coverage for the one time trip to the airport. I just renewed with London. My agent said all others declined due to the existing unsettled claim. I paid 4k my first year, and now am paying 3400 the second year for 120k hull value. The price would go up to 4k if I use 140 as the hull value. Good luck trying to find someone to insure you and with your final stages in getting your Rocket finished. I don't know what accident has ruined the Harmon Rocket reputation but I would sure like to know. BTW, I am a retired Navy Fighter guy, a UPS 757/767 Captain, and have in the neighborhood of 8000 hours total with 150 time in type, with no mishaps are claims. If the insurance companies are declining coverage with my experience, I have to assume it's the airplane that is high risk not the pilot. My buddy has an RV-4 and he pays 1400 per year but it is only work half of a Rocket. I suspect we may be at the point where you can only buy liability for new policies. BTW,I have a great agent who worked hard for me, his name Mike Pratt at 502-905-8747 mpratt(at)jmpinsurance.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE Rocket "Accident"
Date: Sep 30, 2008
From: "Smith, Stuart" <SSmith(at)lacsd.org>
Cal: I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune. We try to do everything right and sometimes bad things still happen. Good luck with your repairs - Stu Smith, HRII at Compton Airport, near LAX. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of CalBru(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE Rocket "Accident" Guys, I thought that I had ground looped my F1 out at Truckee on 9/10/08. This will probably come up on NTSB eventually. I thought this through in my mind quite a bit wondering what I had done wrong. We were slow, the TW had come down, when the plane just started going right, no matter how much L rudder I put in. The L MLG bent back and in about 15*, the L wing tagged the runway, and of course, upon leaving the pavement and decelerating into the dirt the tail came up for a quick prop strike, then back down. No injuries. As I drove a borrowed large truck and 30' trailer out there last Friday (from Salt Lake), I thought about the damage and realized that the TW has collapsed and twisted clockwise, where all of the momentum during the accident was turning everything counterclockwise. I had noticed that the TW had sheared the 2 AN3 bolts and rotated at the scene, but it was later that it dawned on me that it must have collapsed prior to the accident--in fact the TW failure caused the accident. The single arm Janzi TW steering arm obviously rotated during the failure from horizontal to vertical, thus placing pressure on the bottom of the rudder and forcing it to the right, thus causing the uncontrollable right turn! There is a hole punctured in the glass rudder bottom, probably from my Left foot jamming on the L rudder so hard. I was upset that I had damaged the plane, but when I thought it was my fault (even though I could not figure out why) I felt OK about the brain damage and expense of the repair. Now, knowing that a few cents worth of bolts failing caused the accident and aftermath, I'm kinda upset. Bottom line, Check your bolts which go through the TW assembly into the tail spring so you don't have a similar incident!!! The F1 is back in the hangar now, and I'll slowly figure out how to get it back in the air! Cal Brubaker _____ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001> and calculators. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2008
From: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net>
Subject: Re: RE Rocket "Accident"
Cal, Sorry to read about your incident! The tailwheel assembly on my Wittman Tailwind spring-rod also sheared the bolt and rotated 90 degrees,but fortunately, without other damage. The fix that has worked perfectly throughout the subsequent 500 flight hours was to drill and ream both the spring-rod and tailwheel unit for a taper pin. Taper pins are hardened and with a nut and special washer that allows subsequent minor tightening if the assembly develops any loosening due to microscopic wear between the tapered hole and pin. This prevents any rotational movement from developing over time. The hardened taper pin also has a higher shear strength than an AN bolt. Taper pins and matching taper reamers are available in many diameters to fit a range of appropriate requirements. Jim McCulley ================================================================================= Smith, Stuart wrote: > Cal: > > I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune. We try to do everything > right and sometimes bad things still happen. Good luck with your > repairs - Stu Smith, HRII at Compton Airport, near LAX. > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]*On Behalf Of > *CalBru(at)aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2008 3:19 PM > *To:* rocket-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Rocket-List: RE Rocket "Accident" > > Guys, > > I thought that I had ground looped my F1 out at Truckee on 9/10/08. > This will probably come up on NTSB eventually. > > I thought this through in my mind quite a bit wondering what I had > done wrong. We were slow, the TW had come down, when the plane just > started going right, no matter how much L rudder I put in. > > The L MLG bent back and in about 15*, the L wing tagged the runway, > and of course, upon leaving the pavement and decelerating into the > dirt the tail came up for a quick prop strike, then back down. No > injuries. > > As I drove a borrowed large truck and 30' trailer out there last > Friday (from Salt Lake), I thought about the damage and realized > that the TW has collapsed and twisted clockwise, where all of the > momentum during the accident was turning everything > counterclockwise. I had noticed that the TW had sheared the 2 AN3 > bolts and rotated at the scene, but it was later that it dawned on > me that it must have collapsed prior to the accident--in fact the TW > failure caused the accident. > > The single arm Janzi TW steering arm obviously rotated during the > failure from horizontal to vertical, thus placing pressure on the > bottom of the rudder and forcing it to the right, thus causing the > uncontrollable right turn! There is a hole punctured in the glass > rudder bottom, probably from my Left foot jamming on the L rudder so > hard. > > I was upset that I had damaged the plane, but when I thought it was > my fault (even though I could not figure out why) I felt OK about > the brain damage and expense of the repair. Now, knowing that a few > cents worth of bolts failing caused the accident and aftermath, I'm > kinda upset. > > Bottom line, Check your bolts which go through the TW assembly into > the tail spring so you don't have a similar incident!!! > > The F1 is back in the hangar now, and I'll slowly figure out how to > get it back in the air! > > Cal Brubaker ==================================================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________

March 17, 2008 - September 30, 2008

Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-at