RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-ab
August 21, 2006 - November 03, 2006
| From: | "MR PAUL MITCHELL" <paul.mitchell2(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel return system rotax 912s |
Frank,
I live in the Uk and we do have some warm days. I would say the return
line is a must. It's purpose is to return any vapour lock or air bubbles
back to the tank. I can see mine while I am flying and there are bubbles
going back to the tank in a steady stream. Not a lot but they are there.
Paul Mitchell
----- Original Message -----
From: fxcon
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: fuel return system rotax 912s
Some advice please re rotax fuel return system.
Is this always necessary?
Do some installations run succesfully without it,say, with adequate
fuel line insulation & perhaps with dedicated air vent.to the fuel
system
What is its main purpose-to cool the fuel by recirculating warm fuel
back into the tank,or perhaps to allow any fuel vapour to be purged from
the system?
All advice welcome.
Frank Connell Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G.
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:27 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 cold seizure
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray" <raybcorbett(at)yahoo.co.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ultralight
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:18 AM
Subject: Rotax 582 cold seizure
> maybe someone can help me out with this one a friend of mine was
going
> to a farm strip early ish one morning tempreture was cool about 8
deg c
> he did a good warm up taxied out ,took of and promptly seized at
the
> top of the climb out no big problem at a 1000 ft above the
airfield
> ,anyway I stripped the top end of the motor and sure enough one
piston
> had seized giving the classic four corner marks of a cold seizure
and
> we put it down to not warming up enough, the engine had done just
over
> 200 hrs and was well maintained and the other piston was not
marked at
> all
> So the motor was rebuilt with new parts I ground run it for approx
20
> mins at vairying loads but not full power and handed it over to my
> friend who started the rotax run in procedure with the trike tied
to
> the hanger at 59 mins at the full power run it seized again, on
> stripping it was exactly the same as before with the four corner
marks
> of a cold seizure ,he assures me he had the right fuel mix 50 to
one
> the jetting is correct piston bore clearances are correct and
again the
> other piston looks perfect
> the engine is in an Airborne outback trike it is a blue head
motor and
> it has a new thermostat
> he tells me all temps were correct
> I know the rotax run in may be a bit aggressive maybe he should
have
> gone a little easyer
> any help would be most appriciated
> thanks
> Ray
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
09-Aug-06
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
| From: | "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind(at)gmx.net> |
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: fuel return system rotax 912s
Hi Frank,
most Rotax 912, that I know of, don't have the fuel return (including
mine, a Zodiac CH 601 HDS). No problems with that set-up, except during
re-starts on hot days. In such cases, the hot engine and the lack of air
going through the cowling will create vapor lock, which will make it
difficult to re-start. One way is to take the cowling off, so that the
hot air can get out. Another way, we just learned from a Rotx shop is to
switch on the electrical fuel pump, keep it running for 3 minutes,
switch it off, push a throttle ever so slightly forward and start
(without choke). Works well on the D40 in our flying club here. I
haven't tried that yet on my Zodiac.
Best regards
Thilo Kind
----- Original Message -----
From: fxcon
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:03 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: fuel return system rotax 912s
Some advice please re rotax fuel return system.
Is this always necessary?
Do some installations run succesfully without it,say, with adequate
fuel line insulation & perhaps with dedicated air vent.to the fuel
system
What is its main purpose-to cool the fuel by recirculating warm fuel
back into the tank,or perhaps to allow any fuel vapour to be purged from
the system?
All advice welcome.
Frank Connell Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G.
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:27 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 cold seizure
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray" <raybcorbett(at)yahoo.co.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ultralight
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:18 AM
Subject: Rotax 582 cold seizure
> maybe someone can help me out with this one a friend of mine was
going
> to a farm strip early ish one morning tempreture was cool about 8
deg c
> he did a good warm up taxied out ,took of and promptly seized at
the
> top of the climb out no big problem at a 1000 ft above the
airfield
> ,anyway I stripped the top end of the motor and sure enough one
piston
> had seized giving the classic four corner marks of a cold seizure
and
> we put it down to not warming up enough, the engine had done just
over
> 200 hrs and was well maintained and the other piston was not
marked at
> all
> So the motor was rebuilt with new parts I ground run it for approx
20
> mins at vairying loads but not full power and handed it over to my
> friend who started the rotax run in procedure with the trike tied
to
> the hanger at 59 mins at the full power run it seized again, on
> stripping it was exactly the same as before with the four corner
marks
> of a cold seizure ,he assures me he had the right fuel mix 50 to
one
> the jetting is correct piston bore clearances are correct and
again the
> other piston looks perfect
> the engine is in an Airborne outback trike it is a blue head
motor and
> it has a new thermostat
> he tells me all temps were correct
> I know the rotax run in may be a bit aggressive maybe he should
have
> gone a little easyer
> any help would be most appriciated
> thanks
> Ray
>
__________ NOD32 1.1701 (20060810) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Wells(at)adelphia.net" <georgewells(at)adelphia.net> |
When my 912S is hot like just after refueling, if I even touch the
throttle a 1/4 inch the thing will flood and not start -- Then even if
I let it sit for 3 hours like today, still no start ??
Help -- It's in a KF 5
Thanks,
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting |
Do you have a fuel return? With a return and an auxilliary electric
fuel pump, you just run the electric pump for a minute or two before
attempting to start a hot engine, and the vapor lock gets pumped back to
the gas tank. I did not initially install a fuel return, but did so by
Tee- ing into the fuel linehalf way between the two carbs and running a
line back to the top of the fuel tank. I restricted it very simply by
inserting a grooved plug of threaded stock into the line and clamping it
with a hose clamp to the desired flow rate, about half a US gallon per
hour seems to work fine. Rotax recommends a fuel return.
Jack, flying a Sky Ranger with 100 hours. 912UL
George Wells(at)adelphia.net wrote:
> When my 912S is hot like just after refueling, if I even touch the
> throttle a 1/4 inch the thing will flood and not start -- Then even
> if I let it sit for 3 hours like today, still no start ??
> Help -- It's in a KF 5
> Thanks,
> George
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting |
I did no know Rotax recommended a return line. However the electric
pump is a good feature to allow both carbs to fill before engine
fireing. This helps with the startup shake. For the hot start without
the return line the hot liquid would still be present, but at least I
would think it would start.
Paul
======
At 10:16 PM 8/21/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Do you have a fuel return? With a return and an auxilliary electric
>fuel pump, you just run the electric pump for a minute or two before
>attempting to start a hot engine, and the vapor lock gets pumped
>back to the gas tank. I did not initially install a fuel return,
>but did so by Tee- ing into the fuel linehalf way between the two
>carbs and running a line back to the top of the fuel tank. I
>restricted it very simply by inserting a grooved plug of threaded
>stock into the line and clamping it with a hose clamp to the desired
>flow rate, about half a US gallon per hour seems to work
>fine. Rotax recommends a fuel return.
>Jack, flying a Sky Ranger with 100 hours. 912UL
>
>George Wells(at)adelphia.net wrote:
>
>>When my 912S is hot like just after refueling, if I even touch the
>>throttle a 1/4 inch the thing will flood and not start -- Then
>>even if I let it sit for 3 hours like today, still no start ??
>>Help -- It's in a KF 5
>>Thanks,
>>George
>>
>>*
>>
>>
>>*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Rotax Fuel Pressure Gauge |
Gentlemen:
The Fuel Pressure gauge from Rotax for my 912UL is marked with two red
lines, one at 0.2 bar, and the other at 0.5 bar. I assume these are min. and
max. indications. The Rotax 912UL Operators Manual page 10-5 states that the
min fuel pressure is 0.15 bar, and the max is 0.4 bar. Are these red lines
on the gauge essentially the figures given in the manual, 0.15 and 0.4 bar
(i.e. as close as they could mark the gauge)?
Hugh McKay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> |
| Subject: | Water pump gasket housing leak |
After changing my rubber coolant tubes and switching from Prestone to
Dexcool my water pump is leaking from the bottom, I think from the gasket.
The upper end of the Model 99 582 engine was rebuilt at 64 hours and I
replaced this gasket (with a CPS gasket) and now it is leaking and the
engine has only 69 hours after the change. Has anyone else experienced
leaking after switching to Dex coolant (the orange stuff) ?
Rob Stapleton
Anchorage, AK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water pump gasket housing leak |
Rob ,
did you use distilled water as well ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Stapleton
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Water pump gasket housing leak
After changing my rubber coolant tubes and switching from Prestone to
Dexcool my water pump is leaking from the bottom, I think from the
gasket. The upper end of the Model 99 582 engine was rebuilt at 64 hours
and I replaced this gasket (with a CPS gasket) and now it is leaking and
the engine has only 69 hours after the change. Has anyone else
experienced leaking after switching to Dex coolant (the orange stuff) ?
Rob Stapleton
Anchorage, AK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water pump gasket housing leak |
At 08:45 AM 8/29/2006, you wrote:
>Has anyone else experienced leaking after switching to Dex coolant (the
>orange stuff) ?
No leaking with Dex and distilled. Only a few hours, though.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Wells(at)adelphia.net" <georgewells(at)adelphia.net> |
Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for a
912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK> |
I have had.; there is a Champion p/n.
I've also found a stockist . But the price was 19 UKP!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: George Wells(at)adelphia.net
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:42 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for
a 912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BOB MCMILLIN" <rmcmill(at)zoominternet.net> |
k&n 1002 filter works well is a heavy duty racing type with holes for
safety wire also.
----- Original Message -----
From: George Wells(at)adelphia.net
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for
a 912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/30/06 |
Howdy
I am new to this list since I have purchased a used Hytek Hurricane UL with a Rotax
447 about 3 months ago. The engine/airframe had only 228 hours and now I
have 265 hours on it. I had an interesting problem develop this morning.
On takeoff and climb out, around 0708 hours, I heard an RPM drop sound with no
real indication on the RPM gauge. I leveled the aircraft and reduced throttle
to cruise and I looked at the EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp) gauge and notice the number
2 cylinder temp climbing through 1000 degrees with both CHT (Cylinder Head
Temp) indicators running about 10-20 degrees higher than normal. I immediately
and turned down wind for landing. Landed with no problem just a shallow approach
due to I was not at my normal pattern altitude. I taxied back to runway 34
and decided to try it again to see if I could duplicate the problem. Sure enough,
just as I rotated for take off, same RPM drop, so I just throttle back, settled
the aircraft back to the runway, and taxied back to the hangar.
Everything with engine just didn't feel right so I aborted the flight. WhenI was
planning on flying to work today for the first time. Bummer.
I planned on tearing down and decarbing the engine this fall but I guess I might
be doing it early.
I am familiar with 2 cylinders/2 cycles but this is the first time in a long that
my behind is strapped to one. Any ideas on what I should do and be looking
for? Pull plugs and exhaust manifold to check for built up carbon and scored pistons?
Thanks in advance
John
Independence, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 11:57 PM
>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/30/06
>
>*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-08-30.html
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-08-30.txt
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed 08/30/06: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 09:43 AM - Oil Filter (George Wells(at)adelphia.net)
> 2. 03:46 PM - Re: Oil Filter (Duncan McFadyean)
> 3. 06:34 PM - Re: Oil Filter (BOB MCMILLIN)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "George Wells(at)adelphia.net" <georgewells(at)adelphia.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
>
>Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for a
>912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
>Thanks
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
>
>I have had.; there is a Champion p/n.
>I've also found a stockist . But the price was 19 UKP!
>
>Duncan McF.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Wells(at)adelphia.net
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:42 PM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
>
>
> Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for
>a 912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
> Thanks
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "BOB MCMILLIN" <rmcmill(at)zoominternet.net>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
>
>k&n 1002 filter works well is a heavy duty racing type with holes for
>safety wire also.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Wells(at)adelphia.net
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:42 PM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil Filter
>
>
> Does anyone have a Manufacturer and Part Numbers for an oil filter for
>a 912 to replace the Rotex Filter ?
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs |
Hi John,
> Landed with no problem just a shallow approach due to I was not at my normal
pattern altitude. I taxied back to runway 34 and decided to try it again to see
if I could duplicate the problem. Sure enough, just as I rotated for take off,
same RPM drop, so I just throttle back, settled the aircraft back to the runway,
and taxied back to the hangar.
>
When one experiences an in-flight engine problem, it is wiser to land as
soon as possible, and not take-off again before the trouble is sorted out.
> Any ideas on what I should do and be looking for? Pull plugs and exhaust manifold
to check for built up carbon and scored pistons?
>
Do not take off again until you've found the cause.
Check everything on your engine and airframe :
- Read the owner and maintenance manuals (downloadable online)
- Fuel : quantity, quality, age, absence of contamination, lines for
obstructions, kinks or leaks, vents, cleanliness, pump, condition of
carbs and throttle freeness, etc.
- Oil : quantity and quality, mixing, age, etc...
- Mechanical condition : leaks, cleanliness, integrity, absence of
abnormal friction, bolt and head torquing, exhaust, compression, etc...
- Cooling : condition of baffling/fans, cleanliness, adequate airflow to
fins or radiator, coolant quality and quantity, etc...
- Instruments : integrity, accuracy, etc...
- Ignition : integrity, wire runs, cleanliness, fit of plug caps, age of
plugs.
Pull the plugs, do not mix them. Examine them for diagnostic. Verify
presence of spark and correct timing.
Report any discrepancy.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Malcolmbru(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/30/06 |
shek for stuf in the gas tank any silacone will break down and plug the
fuel line
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N601RT" <N601RT(at)comcast.net> |
I use a Puralator PureOne PL10241 filter on my Rotax 912ULS. You should be able
to cross reference other filters from this. I trust the PureOne to be one of
the best premium filters available.
When I took the 3 day Rotax 4-stroke class, the instructor said the Rotax filter
has a higher "by pass" pressure than automotive filters and that by using an
automotive filter, one runs the risk of the filter "by passing" at startup when
the oil is thicker and pressures are higher.
I've opened both the Rotax filter and the PureOne PL10241 filter and believe they
have comparable filter areas.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 615hrs,
711 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58943#58943
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com> |
I've used a variety of filters, all of which fit a 1991 Toyota Camry V6.
Bought a NAPA 21348 today. No problems for 13 years.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Burson <n821x(at)yahoo.com> |
I've used a Fram PH 3614 since my 1st oil change on my 912 UL. 214 hours..
I've used a variety of filters, all of which fit a 1991 Toyota Camry V6.
Bought a NAPA 21348 today. No problems for 13 years.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Burson <n821x(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RE:912 Oil Filters |
I've used a Fram PH3614 since my 1st oil change. 214 hours..
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Gentlemen: Today I ran my Rotax 912UL for its first test run. The plane is
an Allegro 2000. Plane was anchored down, outside temperature 86 to 88
degrees F, bright and sunny, plane sitting on asphalt.
Here is the chronology of the results.
1. Oil system was vented properly.
2. Oil level checked. OK (Mobile 1 MX4T 10w-40 motorcycle oil)
3. Coolant level OK. (50/50 distilled water and Texaco Anti-freeze Coolant
Concentrate)
4. Started electric fuel pump.
5. Closed choke, (full choke)
6. Throttle in idle position.
7. Master switch on.
8. Ignition switches (2) on.
9. Started engine (engine started immediately).
10. Held engine rpm at 1000 for 5 min.
11. Oil pressure went to 5 bar on start.
12. After 5 min increased rpm to 2500
13. At 2500 rpm, oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. 60 degrees C, cylinder head
temp. 100 degrees C, fuel pressure 0.3 bar (held this rpm for 10 to 15 min.)
I noticed the cylinder head temp gradually continued to rise.
14. After 15 min gradually increased rpm to 4000
15. At 4000 rpm; Oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. increased to 120 degrees C,
cylinder head temp increased to 130 degrees C, fuel pressure 0.3 bar (held
this rpm for another 15 +/- min.)
16. At 4000 rpm checked both ignition (kill) switches. rpm drop was aprx.
100 rpm on each switch.
17. At this point the engine had been running for about 30 to 40 minutes
sitting on the ground with the cowling on and the ambient temp. at aprx.88
degrees F.
18. I then increased the engine speed to max throttle position and checked
the engine rpm. Max rpm was 4600 rpm. Held this speed for one minute. Based
on this number the existing Prop pitch (17.5 degrees by the Warp Drive
Protractor) needs adjusting to get the rpm up to the 4800-5100 range. I
assume I will have to reduce the pitch to do this (i.e. less pitch equals
higher rpm). How much less than 17.5 degrees I dont know. Im guessing
about 1 to 1.5 degrees.
19. At max throttle, 4600 rpm; oil pressure 3.4 bar, oil temp. 120 degrees
C, cylinder head temp 130 degrees C and rising, fuel pressure 0.3 bar.
20. Reduced engine speed to 1000 rpm for 3 min. for cool down.
21. Engine stopped.
Note: After engine shut down coolant in over flow bottle was boiling, and
there was evidence of overflow on the asphalt. I noticed that the specs on
the Texaco Anti-freeze coolant container showed that for a 50/50 mix ratio
and a 15 psi radiator cap (my cap is rated 1.2 bar or 17.2 psi), the boil
over protection is only 129.3 degree C. For a 60/40 mix ratio the protection
goes up only to 132.2 degrees C. This is the max. recommended mix ratio. If
the CHT gauge is correct I exceeded the boil over protection for the
mixture.
The Rotax Engine Operators Manual 10.2.1 states that the ratio of
anti-freeze to water should be increased if boiling should occur. I can only
go to a 60/40 and that only protects to 132.2 degrees C.
One thing that concerned me when I filled the engine cooling system, it took
less than one gallon (aprx. 3 quarts) of 50/50 mix to fill the system. This
seems to me to be a very small amount of liquid to cool the engine properly.
What is the proper volume of coolant in the Allegro 2000 cooling system?
Everything seemed to be normal except the CHT. Can any one help me with this
problem?
Hugh McKay in North Carolina
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hi Hugh,
> Gentlemen: Today I ran my Rotax 912UL for its first test run.....
>
> 1. Started engine (engine started immediately).
> 2. Held engine rpm at 1000 for 5 min.
> 3. Oil pressure went to 5 bar on start.
> 4. After 5 min increased rpm to 2500
> 5. At 2500 rpm, oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. 60 degrees C,
> cylinder head temp. 100 degrees C, fuel pressure 0.3 bar (held
> this rpm for 10 to 15 min.) I noticed the cylinder head temp
> gradually continued to rise.
>
I would have shut down long before that.
> 1. After 15 min gradually increased rpm to 4000
> 2. At 4000 rpm; Oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. increased to 120
> degrees C, cylinder head temp increased to 130 degrees C, fuel
> pressure 0.3 bar (held this rpm for another 15 +/- min.)
> 3. At 4000 rpm checked both ignition (kill) switches. rpm drop was
> aprx. 100 rpm on each switch.
> 4. At this point the engine had been running for about 30 to 40
> minutes sitting on the ground with the cowling on and the
> ambient temp. at aprx.88 degrees F.
> 5. I then increased the engine speed to max throttle position and
> checked the engine rpm. Max rpm was 4600 rpm. Held this speed
> for one minute. Based on this number the existing Prop pitch
> (17.5 degrees by the Warp Drive Protractor) needs adjusting to
> get the rpm up to the 4800-5100 range. I assume I will have to
> reduce the pitch to do this (i.e. less pitch equals higher rpm).
> How much less than 17.5 degrees I dont know. Im guessing about
> 1 to 1.5 degrees.
> 6. At max throttle, 4600 rpm; oil pressure 3.4 bar, oil temp. 120
> degrees C, cylinder head temp 130 degrees C and rising, fuel
> pressure 0.3 bar.
> 7. Reduced engine speed to 1000 rpm for 3 min. for cool down.
>
IMHO, 40 minutes on the ground seems quite an ordeal for a first engine
run. Especially with the temperatures you achieved. 130C seems to me
way too high.
One thing common to any piston engine, is they need to be treated with
care at the beginning of their operating life. And you don't want to
thermally load them during the run in period.
If it were my engine, I'd do short runs progressively increased in RPM
and duration, with a careful monitoring of temperatures. And I would
stop as soon as they climb too high. Adequate airflow is key.
When building a 4-seater project, I conducted a thorough cooling
investigation, and designed a radiator duct which performs very well,
with great ease of adjustment.
See :
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_refroid.php
http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php
>
> 1.
>
>
> Note: After engine shut down coolant in over flow bottle was boiling,
> and there was evidence of overflow on the asphalt.
>
This is no surprise.
First start, run 30 seconds, shut down, check everything.
Then resart for a few minutes, without allowing the temps to exceed the
lower authorized range, shut down, check, etc...
> I noticed that the specs on the Texaco Anti-freeze coolant container
> showed that for a 50/50 mix ratio and a 15 psi radiator cap (my cap is
> rated 1.2 bar or 17.2 psi), the boil over protection is only 129.3
> degree C. For a 60/40 mix ratio the protection goes up only to 132.2
> degrees C. This is the max. recommended mix ratio. If the CHT gauge is
> correct I exceeded the boil over protection for the mixture.
>
It's not the boiling that harms the engine, but high CHT. To the
contrary, boiling helps reducing temps, that is as long as there is
coolant to boil, and not for 40 minutes. You definitely need cooling
airflow to correctly reject heat from the engine.
>
> The Rotax Engine Operators Manual 10.2.1 states that the ratio of
> anti-freeze to water should be increased if boiling should occur. I
> can only go to a 60/40 and that only protects to 132.2 degrees C.
>
> One thing that concerned me when I filled the engine cooling system,
> it took less than one gallon (aprx. 3 quarts) of 50/50 mix to fill the
> system. This seems to me to be a very small amount of liquid to cool
> the engine properly. What is the proper volume of coolant in the
> Allegro 2000 cooling system?
>
> Everything seemed to be normal except the CHT. Can any one help me
> with this problem?
>
The Rotax 91X series are very enduring engines, so you may hope you did
not really damage your engine.
I would suggest you start again the right way :
- Download the applicable cooling SBs and service letters from the Rotax
website and read them thoroughly.
- Seek the advice of a knowledgeable Rotax mechanic, engineer or dealer.
- Check for adequate engine and radiator installation.
- Do not do long ground runs with no cooling.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Gilles: The times stated in my email are excessive. After reviewing the
actual sequence of events I shut down the engine after the CHT was
approaching 130 degrees C. It took about 15 min to reach the 130 degrees. I
did not hold the engine at 130 degrees for any length of time. I believe the
problem was that I was not moving (static) and the ambient temp. was about
88 degrees F. The air flow across the engine was only what the cowling
allowed. Has any one else experienced this high CHT while sitting on the
ground with the engine running for about 15 min.?
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Hugh,
> Gentlemen: Today I ran my Rotax 912UL for its first test run.....
>
> 1. Started engine (engine started immediately).
> 2. Held engine rpm at 1000 for 5 min.
> 3. Oil pressure went to 5 bar on start.
> 4. After 5 min increased rpm to 2500
> 5. At 2500 rpm, oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. 60 degrees C,
> cylinder head temp. 100 degrees C, fuel pressure 0.3 bar (held
> this rpm for 10 to 15 min.) I noticed the cylinder head temp
> gradually continued to rise.
>
I would have shut down long before that.
> 1. After 15 min gradually increased rpm to 4000
> 2. At 4000 rpm; Oil pressure 4.0 bar, oil temp. increased to 120
> degrees C, cylinder head temp increased to 130 degrees C, fuel
> pressure 0.3 bar (held this rpm for another 15 +/- min.)
> 3. At 4000 rpm checked both ignition (kill) switches. rpm drop was
> aprx. 100 rpm on each switch.
> 4. At this point the engine had been running for about 30 to 40
> minutes sitting on the ground with the cowling on and the
> ambient temp. at aprx.88 degrees F.
> 5. I then increased the engine speed to max throttle position and
> checked the engine rpm. Max rpm was 4600 rpm. Held this speed
> for one minute. Based on this number the existing Prop pitch
> (17.5 degrees by the Warp Drive Protractor) needs adjusting to
> get the rpm up to the 4800-5100 range. I assume I will have to
> reduce the pitch to do this (i.e. less pitch equals higher rpm).
> How much less than 17.5 degrees I don't know. I'm guessing about
> 1 to 1.5 degrees.
> 6. At max throttle, 4600 rpm; oil pressure 3.4 bar, oil temp. 120
> degrees C, cylinder head temp 130 degrees C and rising, fuel
> pressure 0.3 bar.
> 7. Reduced engine speed to 1000 rpm for 3 min. for cool down.
>
IMHO, 40 minutes on the ground seems quite an ordeal for a first engine
run. Especially with the temperatures you achieved. 130C seems to me
way too high.
One thing common to any piston engine, is they need to be treated with
care at the beginning of their operating life. And you don't want to
thermally load them during the run in period.
If it were my engine, I'd do short runs progressively increased in RPM
and duration, with a careful monitoring of temperatures. And I would
stop as soon as they climb too high. Adequate airflow is key.
When building a 4-seater project, I conducted a thorough cooling
investigation, and designed a radiator duct which performs very well,
with great ease of adjustment.
See :
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_refroid.php
http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php
>
> 1.
>
>
> Note: After engine shut down coolant in over flow bottle was boiling,
> and there was evidence of overflow on the asphalt.
>
This is no surprise.
First start, run 30 seconds, shut down, check everything.
Then resart for a few minutes, without allowing the temps to exceed the
lower authorized range, shut down, check, etc...
> I noticed that the specs on the Texaco Anti-freeze coolant container
> showed that for a 50/50 mix ratio and a 15 psi radiator cap (my cap is
> rated 1.2 bar or 17.2 psi), the boil over protection is only 129.3
> degree C. For a 60/40 mix ratio the protection goes up only to 132.2
> degrees C. This is the max. recommended mix ratio. If the CHT gauge is
> correct I exceeded the boil over protection for the mixture.
>
It's not the boiling that harms the engine, but high CHT. To the
contrary, boiling helps reducing temps, that is as long as there is
coolant to boil, and not for 40 minutes. You definitely need cooling
airflow to correctly reject heat from the engine.
>
> The Rotax Engine Operators Manual 10.2.1 states that the ratio of
> anti-freeze to water should be increased if boiling should occur. I
> can only go to a 60/40 and that only protects to 132.2 degrees C.
>
> One thing that concerned me when I filled the engine cooling system,
> it took less than one gallon (aprx. 3 quarts) of 50/50 mix to fill the
> system. This seems to me to be a very small amount of liquid to cool
> the engine properly. What is the proper volume of coolant in the
> Allegro 2000 cooling system?
>
> Everything seemed to be normal except the CHT. Can any one help me
> with this problem?
>
The Rotax 91X series are very enduring engines, so you may hope you did
not really damage your engine.
I would suggest you start again the right way :
- Download the applicable cooling SBs and service letters from the Rotax
website and read them thoroughly.
- Seek the advice of a knowledgeable Rotax mechanic, engineer or dealer.
- Check for adequate engine and radiator installation.
- Do not do long ground runs with no cooling.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hugh,
Though they do have a very explicit run-in procedure for their 2-stroke
engines, Rotax does not require a run-in sequence for the 912 series
engines. Maintaining all parameters within normal ranges is important
though, especially while the engine is new. You allowed the oil
temperature to get above the normal range (90-110C) but kept it below
the max of 140C so I would not be too concerned about that. There is no
normal range specified for the CHT and you kept it below the 150C max.
Again no real concern. Oil pressure was maintained in normal range. No
concern there either. Note the temperature limits are different for the
912ULS engines.
Your report was very thorough with the exception of what the
temperatures were when you shut down the engine. You stated that you
let the engine cool down for 3 minutes but did not mention what the
temps were when you shut it down. In normal operation of our Allegro
2000 912UL, the engine has had plenty time to cool off for shutdown
after final approach and landing at idle, taxiing off the runway and
taxiing to hangar. If you don't let the engine cool down properly, then
the overflow coolant at ambient pressure would be expected to boil. On
static runs I would do the cool down at 2,000 rpm until the oil
temperature dropped into the low end of normal range before shutting
down. As I said, in normal operations, we've never had to let ours cool
down after taxiing to the hangar.
Rotax recommends letting the engine cool down at 2,000 rpm before
shutting it down, not 1,000 rpm. 1,000 rpm is too slow for this engine
and idle should be set to 1400 rpm minimum to 1800 max. Note that the
idle speed must be set when the engine is at normal operating
temperatures. If done at cooler temps, it will change when warmed up to
normal temps. Extended idling at too low rpm on the 912 can cause
gearbox damage. Since the Allegro glides so well, you will find that
setting the idle at the low end of the 1400-1800 rpm range is best. If
you set it at the high range, you will have trouble keeping the
airspeeds down on final approach.
We have not changed our coolant yet so I don't know what the total
system capacity is, but I suspect it is not very much. Remember, this
is not a big engine (1.2 liters) and the cooling system is pretty
compact.
I would decrease the prop pitch by no more than 1 degree for first
change. You may be surprised how much rpm difference 1/2 degree can
make. The range you are looking for (4800-5100 rpm) static is good for
the Allegro. Ours runs about 4900 rpm static and yields best cruise
speeds at this pitch. 5100 rpm static would give better climb.
Thom Riddle
FAA Powerplant Mechanic
Allegro 2000 #03-202
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hugh and Thom,
The following update re cooling may be of interest.
>
> There is no normal range specified for the CHT and you kept it below
> the 150C max.
Rotax 912 operator's manual does specifiy a normal CHT range of
75-110C with a red mark at 135C/150C for the hottest cylinder (to be
determined by tests) IF you switch to Evans water-free coolant.
If you stick to the 50/50 coolant, your CHT redlines is 120C with the
1.2 bar cap and only 115C with the old 0.9 bar cap.
The normal oil temp range is 90-110C.
I would strongly advise you to download and read the last applicable
Rotax recommendations. Rotax runs a free subscription service to advise
you of Service Bulletins, Service Letters and manual updates. You can
also search their website by engine s/n.
Regarding engine run-in, the Rotax takes about 20-35 hours to run-in, as
indicated by the lower running temperatures attained after the initial
period. Of course, it is not i"n the manual", but to achieve optimal
life for a new engine, it is best not to thermally abuse it during the
bedding down process. Prolonged ground runs are best avoided.
BTW, Philip Lockwood has written interesting articles on the
installation and operation of the Rotax 4-strokes.
FWIW,
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Thom/Gilles:
I have read the FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin dated Aug.
30, 2005 and the Austro Control AD No. A-2004-004R1 dated December 22, 2004,
both of which address this issue. The FAA document simply states that
operating above the 120 degree F with 50/50 mix, loss of coolant and engine
over heating can occur. That did occur. The Austro Control AD states that
the Max CHT is 120 degrees F with 50/50 mix. I exceeded that (130 degrees
F). All that being said, my question is "have I damaged my engine"? Any
thoughts?
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hugh and Thom,
The following update re cooling may be of interest.
>
> There is no normal range specified for the CHT and you kept it below
> the 150C max.
Rotax 912 operator's manual does specifiy a normal CHT range of
75-110C with a red mark at 135C/150C for the hottest cylinder (to be
determined by tests) IF you switch to Evans water-free coolant.
If you stick to the 50/50 coolant, your CHT redlines is 120C with the
1.2 bar cap and only 115C with the old 0.9 bar cap.
The normal oil temp range is 90-110C.
I would strongly advise you to download and read the last applicable
Rotax recommendations. Rotax runs a free subscription service to advise
you of Service Bulletins, Service Letters and manual updates. You can
also search their website by engine s/n.
Regarding engine run-in, the Rotax takes about 20-35 hours to run-in, as
indicated by the lower running temperatures attained after the initial
period. Of course, it is not i"n the manual", but to achieve optimal
life for a new engine, it is best not to thermally abuse it during the
bedding down process. Prolonged ground runs are best avoided.
BTW, Philip Lockwood has written interesting articles on the
installation and operation of the Rotax 4-strokes.
FWIW,
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hugh,
> I have read the FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin dated Aug.
> 30, 2005 and the Austro Control AD No. A-2004-004R1 dated December 22, 2004,
> both of which address this issue. The FAA document simply states that
> operating above the 120 degree F with 50/50 mix, loss of coolant and engine
> over heating can occur. That did occur. The Austro Control AD states that
> the Max CHT is 120 degrees F with 50/50 mix.
Thoroughly reading the Maintenance, Installation and Operator's manuals,
and the SBs and SLs direct from Rotax will give you a better
understanding of the engine operation and limitations.
> I exceeded that (130 degrees
> F). All that being said, my question is "have I damaged my engine"?
>
Only the engine knows ;-(
You sure did not do it much good, but did you do much harm ? Only a
knowledgeable Rotax engineer, with much experience about this type of
engine could answer. Why not give Lockwood Aviation a call ?
What I would advise you not to do again, is remove the coolant cap
before the engine has cooled down. The circuit is pressurized, and by
premature release of the pressure, the coolant starts to boil. And
boiling means massive cooling. That is shock cooling the hot spots
within, and no engine likes that.
But those engines are very rugged, and very tolerant. So Lockwood may
shrug about it. (and you risk scalds).
Out of memory, the maintenance or operator manual may give information
about the checks following overheating.
What I would do after consulting knowledgeable people :
After those checks, start again, and limit ground operation to what is
necessary to ascertain correct operation. During flight tests, limit
full throttle operation to what is necessary to climb to a safe
altitude, without leaving the temperatures exceed the normal operating
range. During descent, beware of shock-cooling.
For subsequent flights, never let the engine run outside its
limitations, and gradually increase cruise power duration, with, at the
beginning, short bursts at full throttle.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Gilles:
Thanks for the advice and counsel. I will call Lockwood Aviation. By the
way, I did not open the coolant cap until the engine had cooled down. The
boiling coolant was in the overflow bottle with some being dumped out
through the overflow line. After cool down, the coolant that was in the
overflow bottle was sucked back into the engine. I then opened the cap and
replenished the lost coolant (aprx. 1 pint).
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hugh,
> I have read the FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin dated Aug.
> 30, 2005 and the Austro Control AD No. A-2004-004R1 dated December 22,
2004,
> both of which address this issue. The FAA document simply states that
> operating above the 120 degree F with 50/50 mix, loss of coolant and
engine
> over heating can occur. That did occur. The Austro Control AD states that
> the Max CHT is 120 degrees F with 50/50 mix.
Thoroughly reading the Maintenance, Installation and Operator's manuals,
and the SBs and SLs direct from Rotax will give you a better
understanding of the engine operation and limitations.
> I exceeded that (130 degrees
> F). All that being said, my question is "have I damaged my engine"?
>
Only the engine knows ;-(
You sure did not do it much good, but did you do much harm ? Only a
knowledgeable Rotax engineer, with much experience about this type of
engine could answer. Why not give Lockwood Aviation a call ?
What I would advise you not to do again, is remove the coolant cap
before the engine has cooled down. The circuit is pressurized, and by
premature release of the pressure, the coolant starts to boil. And
boiling means massive cooling. That is shock cooling the hot spots
within, and no engine likes that.
But those engines are very rugged, and very tolerant. So Lockwood may
shrug about it. (and you risk scalds).
Out of memory, the maintenance or operator manual may give information
about the checks following overheating.
What I would do after consulting knowledgeable people :
After those checks, start again, and limit ground operation to what is
necessary to ascertain correct operation. During flight tests, limit
full throttle operation to what is necessary to climb to a safe
altitude, without leaving the temperatures exceed the normal operating
range. During descent, beware of shock-cooling.
For subsequent flights, never let the engine run outside its
limitations, and gradually increase cruise power duration, with, at the
beginning, short bursts at full throttle.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Giles,
I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual, Line
Maintenance Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
Documentation available at Rotax-owner.com since July 1998 (date of my
Operator's Manual).
The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
head temperature range" is in the Heavy Maintenance Manual. See
attached image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain only
a Maximum CHT specification. You will notice that it says the
"operational temperature" is 90-120C (194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED
CHT of 150C (300F). It also says what to do if the maximum is exceeded.
In Hugh's case, he did not exceed the maximum. I don't think Hugh
should be at all concerned about having run his engine at 130C CHT.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wanting the facts to be known.
This is the best information I've been able to find on the subject. If
you know of another more up-to-date source from Rotax, please let us
all know.
Thom
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
Giles,
I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual, Line Maintenance
Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
Documentation available at Rotax-owner.com since July 1998 (date of my Operator's
Manual). The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
head temperature range" is in the Heavy Maintenance Manual. See attached
image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain only a Maximum CHT specification.
You will notice that it says the "operational temperature" is 90-120C
(194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED CHT of 150C (300F). It also says what
to do if the maximum is exceeded. In Hugh's case, he did not exceed the maximum.
I don't think Hugh should be at all concerned about having run his engine at
130C CHT.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wanting the facts to be known. This is
the best information I've been able to find on the subject. If you know of another
more up-to-date source from Rotax, please let us all know.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59360#59360
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cht_reference_138.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
Giles,
I just found the rev_3 update (July 2004) to the 912 Operator's Manual and it does
indeed include the normal CHT range of 75-110C (167-230F). The MUST NOT EXCEED
temperature is still 150C (300F). This update and two earlier ones were found
at
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/
Curiously, the North American importer's website
http://www.kodiakbs.com/
does not have these updates. Their latest version of the Operator's Manual on their
website is dated July 1998. Perhaps they also have these updates but I could
not find them on their site. I will be using the the first link I listed above,
from now on.
Thanks for the motivation to keep looking.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59375#59375
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hi Thom,
>
> I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual,
> Line Maintenance Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
> Documentation available at *Rotax-owner.com* since July 1998 (date of
> my Operator's Manual).
> The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
> head temperature range" is in the *Heavy Maintenance Manual.* See
> attached image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain
> only a Maximum CHT specification.
Operator's manual Rev 3, July 2004 page 10-1, states the limitations
and best operating ranges.
An updated version of the various manuals can be downoaded from the
Kodiak research website : http://www.kodiakbs.com/tiintro.htm
The Rotax-owner's website provides the list of effective documentation
for the 912 :
http://www.rotax-owner.com/SI_TB_INFO/returndoc.asp?PATH=http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/serviceb/sb-all-000-r4.pdf&DOCID=SB-912-000&S_TYPE=SS
> You will notice that it says the "operational temperature" is 90-120C
> (194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED CHT of 150C (300F). It also says
> what to do if the maximum is exceeded. In Hugh's case, he did not
> exceed the maximum. I don't think Hugh should be at all concerned
> about having run his engine at 130C CHT.
Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose with start with two brand new
identical engines. One is run at 149C from the start. The other is
thoroughly run-in and used inside normal range by a caring owner, but
one day, experiences a short temperature excursion up to say, 151 C.
Would you still say the #1 was soundly used, and the #2 engine is to be
grounded ? What happens between 149.9C and 150C ?
Limits are just that, limits. I would not be too confindent with an
engine that has been consistently run to its red line, just because "the
pointer did not pass the red mark".
Engines are best treated with care, and not thermally abused.
But of course, it's not my engine.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
Giles,
You are correct, of course, in that the difference between 149 and 151 degrees
is not meaningful and that operating in the normal range is better than running
near the redline. Howecer, I can tell you that a one time excursion above the
temperature limit, though not good for the engine, is not necessarily cause
for alarm. If this happens (it did not happen to Hugh's engine), it is reason
to investigate the cause and remedy it before operating the engine again. Also,
it is just as important to make sure the engine is cooled down properly before
shutting it off.
I am a retired mechanical engineer and spent most of my career in machine design.
It is normal in this business to over-design machines so that if the operator
does inadvertently operate out of recommended ranges, the machine is not likely
to self-destruct. Another way of saying this is that a reputable manufacturer
usually is conservative in documenting operating limits. This does not mean
that the limits should not be observed but that a single, slight excursion
over the temperature limits is not necessarily reason for concern, if the cause
is discovered and remedied.
In my experience, RPM limits are usually more important in the case of a single
excursion past redline because forces on the reciprocating parts of the engine
are proportional to the 4th power of the rotational speed. That is why our prop
pitch is set such that in straight and level flight, at full throttle, the
maximum rpm is only 5,500 rpm. I don't want to be anywhere near the 5,800 rpm
redline, even though it is "okay" at that speed for up to 5 minutes.
I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value to anyone
who cares, or at least I hope so.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59381#59381
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
| From: | <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Hello Thom
CHT max with EG and .9 bar 240F
CHT max with EG and 1.2 bar 250F
CHT max with Evans and .9 bar 300F 912 and 275F 912S and 914
See:
http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
I remember seeing in documentation from Rotax these changes, it was
convoluted.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
Ron,
Thanks!
That link is a great resource. I did not realize they lowered the MAX CHT to 250F
w/ 1.2 bar pressure cap from 300F. Big difference.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59393#59393
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hi Thom,
> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value to anyone
who cares, or at least I hope so.
>
Agreed.
Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
Nice discussion.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Thom/Gilles:
I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Thom,
> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>
Agreed.
Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
Nice discussion.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hugh,
I have not followed closely. What steps did you
take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
air then overflow after shutdown would be
expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
Regards, Paul
================
At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>McKay III"
>
>Thom/Gilles:
>
>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>
>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>Thesee
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Thom,
>
> > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
> >
>
>Agreed.
>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>Nice discussion.
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Paul:
I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is no
information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
Hugh,
I have not followed closely. What steps did you
take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
air then overflow after shutdown would be
expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
Regards, Paul
================
At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>McKay III"
>
>Thom/Gilles:
>
>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
why
>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
free
>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>
>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>Thesee
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Thom,
>
> > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
> >
>
>Agreed.
>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>Nice discussion.
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Been watching this thread with interest as I had a boil during a flight back
in the a/c early days.
The key to the situation is that the coolant has boiled. When it does, the
vapour no longer carries the heat away and the local hotspot rapidly
increases in temperature well beyond limits for the aluminium. That causes
distortion of the overheated area.
I was using a 80% antifreeze mix at the time as instructed back then, and
the heat transfer properties at that mixture is lower than at the usual 50%
mix. Changed to 50% and the boiling never occurred again.
I'd do a careful compression test and coolant leak test at pressure. Make
sure coolant is not getting into the crankcase and into the oil. If no
problems, run it again. Make sure the cap is giving you the full pressure.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE |
| From: | "dcsfoto" <david(at)kelm.com> |
My 912 just started a spell of running rough at 2000 to 2400 RPM
I also noticed some fuel overflow from the right carb.
any ideas ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59483#59483
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MElrod3732(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE |
Sounds like your carbs might be out of synch. I bought the carb synch kit
from Lockwood, used it on my 912 ULS and greatly improved the rough idling. It
also improved the starting too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Johnson" <bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL see
at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
-Bruce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
> Hugh,
> I have not followed closely. What steps did you
> take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
> Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
> is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
> air then overflow after shutdown would be
> expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
> a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>
> BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
> put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
> boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
> Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
> buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
> the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
> Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
> various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
> Regards, Paul
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Normal procedure when a system has no high point
bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
Based on experience some engine coolant systems
do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
after the first fill and some will self purge.
Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
steady. You might have to get another pressure
cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
that may have caused a place where the bubble
could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>McKay III"
>
>Paul:
>
>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is no
>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>
>Hugh
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>Hugh,
>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>
>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>Regards, Paul
>================
>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
> >McKay III"
> >
> >Thom/Gilles:
> >
> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>why
> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>free
> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
> >
> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
> >
> >Hugh
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
> >Thesee
> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
> >To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
> >Run
> >
> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> >
> >Hi Thom,
> >
> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
> > >
> >
> >Agreed.
> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
> >Nice discussion.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Gilles
> >http://contrails.free.fr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Hugh,
I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than sorry.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not flying.
Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
Paul
================
At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>
>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL see
>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>
>-Bruce
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> > rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
> > To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
> >
> >
> > Hugh,
> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
> >
> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
> > Regards, Paul
> >
>
>--
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Johnson" <bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
> flying.
> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
> Paul
Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to the
ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still well
within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the oil
stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a hot
afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried to
climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check it
out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300 on
rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant, and
no more problems. (This was a 912s)
-Bruce
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
airplane.
Thom in Buffalo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
Thom/Gilles, and all:
I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well as
his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
course of our conversation he did give me additional information concerning
Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
(Coolant Venting)
Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get rid
of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow bottle.
Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it has
lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle to
the halfway point.
(Oil Venting)
In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine owners
know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its up
to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from my
friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting" on
my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It is
markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way to
for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls, because
they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
friends".
Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all experience
in FLYING.
Hugh McKay in North Carolina
Allegro 2000
N661WW
912UL
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
Thom/Gilles:
I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Thom,
> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>
Agreed.
Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
Nice discussion.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Thom,
Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
Regards, Paul
PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
pump off. Paul
=====================
At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>
>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>
>Thom in Buffalo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
All
Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my 447,
I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines from the
pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper setup
or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
Thanks in advance.
John
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
I would try that.
What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>
> All
> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is
> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> John
> Independence, OR
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Re oil venting..
Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states that
this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell you
for sure.
Hugh McKay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
Austin
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
Re oil venting..
Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
prime the system.
Jack
Dave Austin wrote:
>
>Re oil venting..
>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
>.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 |
Dave
I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch attitude and
notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage indication. I leveled off
and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder
was going through 1000 degrees, #1 cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about
10-20 degrees above normal.
I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no problems.
Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement but I had
my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back to the runway
to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue again. Applied full
throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with the brakes and did not
want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same issue, a RPM drop with full
throttle was reached. I didn't have time to notice the other guages and, yes,
I did get airborne. I just closed the throttle, landed, and taxied home to
put the Hurricane to bed.
I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am going
to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th owner on this
aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I think it has all
the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has been flown on a regular
basis and hangared all the time.
John
-----Original Message-----
>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>
>*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
McKay III)
> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Dave
Austin)
> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
McKay III)
> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Jack
Kuehn)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>airplane.
>
>Thom in Buffalo
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>
>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well as
>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>course of our conversation he did give me additional information concerning
>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>
>(Coolant Venting)
>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get rid
>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow bottle.
>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it has
>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle to
>the halfway point.
>
>(Oil Venting)
>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine owners
>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its up
>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from my
>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting" on
>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It is
>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>
>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way to
>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls, because
>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>friends".
>
>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all experience
>in FLYING.
>
>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>Allegro 2000
>N661WW
>912UL
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
>Thom/Gilles:
>
>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>
>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>Thesee
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Thom,
>
>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>
>
>Agreed.
>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>Nice discussion.
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>Thom,
>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>Regards, Paul
>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>pump off. Paul
>====================
>
>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>
>>Thom in Buffalo
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>
>
>All
>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my 447,
>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines from the
>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper setup
>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>Thanks in advance.
>
>John
>Independence, OR
>
>
>________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>
>
>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>
>I would try that.
>
>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>
>
>Dave
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>
>
>>
>> All
>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is
>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> John
>> Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>Re oil venting..
>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
>________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states that
>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell you
>for sure.
>
>Hugh McKay
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>Austin
>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
>
>
>Re oil venting..
>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
>________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>
>
>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>prime the system.
>
>Jack
>
>Dave Austin wrote:
>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 |
Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
They can collapse and you must use a heavy wall line made for impulse line.
Regular fuel line is not ok.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:22 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>
> Dave
> I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
> attitude and notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage
> indication. I leveled off and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my
> EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder was going through 1000 degrees, #1
> cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about 10-20 degrees above normal.
> I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no
> problems. Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement
> but I had my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back
> to the runway to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue
> again. Applied full throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with
> the brakes and did not want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same
> issue, a RPM drop with full throttle was reached. I didn't have time to
> notice the other guages and, yes, I did get airborne. I just closed the
> throttle, landed, and taxied home to put the Hurricane to bed.
> I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am
> going to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th
> owner on this aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I
> think it has all the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has
> been flown on a regular basis and hangared all the time.
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>
>>*
>>
>> =================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> =================================================
>>
>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>the
>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>editor
>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>>HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>
>>Text Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>
>>
>> ===============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ===============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Today's Message Index:
>>----------------------
>>
>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>> (Hugh McKay III)
>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>> (Dave Austin)
>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>> (Hugh McKay III)
>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>> (Jack Kuehn)
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 1
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>airplane.
>>
>>Thom in Buffalo
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 2
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>
>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>as
>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>concerning
>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>
>>(Coolant Venting)
>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>rid
>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>bottle.
>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>has
>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle
>>to
>>the halfway point.
>>
>>(Oil Venting)
>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>owners
>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>up
>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>my
>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>on
>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>is
>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>
>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>to
>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>because
>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>friends".
>>
>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>experience
>>in FLYING.
>>
>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>Allegro 2000
>>N661WW
>>912UL
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles:
>>
>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>why
>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>the
>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>free
>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>with
>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>on
>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>
>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>
>>Hugh
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>Thesee
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test
>>Run
>>
>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>
>>Hi Thom,
>>
>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>
>>
>>Agreed.
>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>Nice discussion.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Gilles
>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 3
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>Thom,
>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>Regards, Paul
>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>pump off. Paul
>>====================
>>
>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 4
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>All
>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>447,
>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>from the
>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper
>>setup
>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>John
>>Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 5
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>
>>I would try that.
>>
>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All
>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>> my
>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is,
>>> is
>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>> setup?
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> John
>>> Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 6
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 7
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>that
>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>you
>>for sure.
>>
>>Hugh McKay
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>Austin
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test
>>Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 8
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>prime the system.
>>
>>Jack
>>
>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
All
Has anyone have experience of purchasing gaskets sets from Ebay?
Check the following item on Ebay 220023208778
Great deal but is it worth the chance?
I am going to go ahead to decarbon my 447 then I really know what the
condition of this used engine.
John
Independence, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "RotaxEngines-List Digest Server" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:57 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/05/06
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
> the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
> editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.html
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.txt
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 4
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
> 2. 07:27 AM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
> 3. 07:27 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
> 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
> Normal procedure when a system has no high point
> bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
> is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
> this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
> Based on experience some engine coolant systems
> do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
> do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
> after the first fill and some will self purge.
> Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
> pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
> store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
> start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
> steady. You might have to get another pressure
> cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
> Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
> that may have caused a place where the bubble
> could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
>
> At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>McKay III"
>>
>>Paul:
>>
>>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is
>>no
>>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>>
>>Hugh
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>Hugh,
>>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>
>>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>Regards, Paul
>>===============
>>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>> >McKay III"
>> >
>> >Thom/Gilles:
>> >
>> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when
>> >I
>> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>> >down,
>> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>why
>> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>> >existing
>> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>> >the
>> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>> >to
>> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>free
>> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>> >with
>> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>> >on
>> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>> >free
>> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>> >
>> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>> >Green
>> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>> >thank
>> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>> >
>> >Hugh
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>> >Thesee
>> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>> >To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>> >Test
>> >Run
>> >
>> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>> >
>> >Hi Thom,
>> >
>> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>> > > value
>> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>> > >
>> >
>> >Agreed.
>> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>> >Nice discussion.
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >Gilles
>> >http://contrails.free.fr
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
> Hugh,
> I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
> instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
> starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
> has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
> missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
> design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than
> sorry.
> Paul
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
> flying.
> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
> Paul
> ===============
>
> At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
>>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
>>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL
>>see
>>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>>
>>-Bruce
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> > rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>> > To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>> >
>> >
>> > Hugh,
>> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
>> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>> >
>> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>> > Regards, Paul
>> >
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com>
> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
>> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>> flying.
>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>> Paul
> Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to the
> ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still
> well
> within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the oil
> stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a
> hot
> afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried to
> climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check it
> out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300
> on
> rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant,
> and
> no more problems. (This was a 912s)
>
> -Bruce
>
> --
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
Dave
I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11 hours ago.
It appears to be holding up.
I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the piston
rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust. Nothing excessive.
The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I will see
if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a feeling
it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the cause. The only
thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught it pretty quickly
and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows, things happened pretty
fast and I wasn't interested in watching the instruments at the time, just
to get myself back on the ground before things really went south.
John
-----Original Message-----
>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 11:57 PM
>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 09/07/06
>
>*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.html
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.txt
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/07/06: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 07:23 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (John Esch)
> 2. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (Dave)
> 3. 07:58 PM - gaskets (John Esch)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>
>Dave
>I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch attitude
and
>notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage indication. I leveled off
>and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder
>was going through 1000 degrees, #1 cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about
>10-20 degrees above normal.
>I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no problems.
>Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement but I had
>my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back to the runway
>to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue again. Applied full
>throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with the brakes and did not
>want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same issue, a RPM drop with full
>throttle was reached. I didn't have time to notice the other guages and, yes,
>I did get airborne. I just closed the throttle, landed, and taxied home to
>put the Hurricane to bed.
>I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am going
>to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th owner on this
>aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I think it has all
>the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has been flown on a regular
>basis and hangared all the time.
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>
>>*
>>
>> ================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ================================================
>>
>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>>HTML Version:
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>
>>Text Version:
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>
>>
>> ==============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ==============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Today's Message Index:
>>----------------------
>>
>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
>McKay III)
>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Dave
>Austin)
>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
>McKay III)
>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Jack
>Kuehn)
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>airplane.
>>
>>Thom in Buffalo
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>
>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well as
>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information concerning
>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>
>>(Coolant Venting)
>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get rid
>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow bottle.
>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it has
>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle to
>>the halfway point.
>>
>>(Oil Venting)
>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine owners
>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its up
>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from my
>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting" on
>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It is
>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>
>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way to
>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls, because
>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>friends".
>>
>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all experience
>>in FLYING.
>>
>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>Allegro 2000
>>N661WW
>>912UL
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles:
>>
>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>
>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>
>>Hugh
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>Thesee
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>
>>Hi Thom,
>>
>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>
>>
>>Agreed.
>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>Nice discussion.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Gilles
>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>Thom,
>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>Regards, Paul
>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>pump off. Paul
>>===================
>>
>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>All
>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my 447,
>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines from
the
>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper setup
>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>John
>>Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>
>>I would try that.
>>
>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>>
>>> All
>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is
>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> John
>>> Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>
>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states that
>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell you
>>for sure.
>>
>>Hugh McKay
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>Austin
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>>
>>
>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>prime the system.
>>
>>Jack
>>
>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>They can collapse and you must use a heavy wall line made for impulse line.
>Regular fuel line is not ok.
>
>
>Dave
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:22 AM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>> I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>> attitude and notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage
>> indication. I leveled off and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my
>> EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder was going through 1000 degrees, #1
>> cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about 10-20 degrees above normal.
>> I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no
>> problems. Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement
>> but I had my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back
>> to the runway to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue
>> again. Applied full throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with
>> the brakes and did not want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same
>> issue, a RPM drop with full throttle was reached. I didn't have time to
>> notice the other guages and, yes, I did get airborne. I just closed the
>> throttle, landed, and taxied home to put the Hurricane to bed.
>> I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am
>> going to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th
>> owner on this aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I
>> think it has all the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has
>> been flown on a regular basis and hangared all the time.
>> John
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>
>>>*
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>the
>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>editor
>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>>HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>
>>>Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Dave Austin)
>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Jack Kuehn)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>
>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>as
>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>concerning
>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>
>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>rid
>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>bottle.
>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>has
>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle
>>>to
>>>the halfway point.
>>>
>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>owners
>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>up
>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>my
>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>on
>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>is
>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>>
>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>to
>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>because
>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>friends".
>>>
>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>experience
>>>in FLYING.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>Allegro 2000
>>>N661WW
>>>912UL
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>
>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>the
>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>with
>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>on
>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>
>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>Thesee
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>
>>>Hi Thom,
>>>
>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>Nice discussion.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Gilles
>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>Thom,
>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>pump off. Paul
>>>===================
>>>
>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>All
>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>>447,
>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>from the
>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper
>>>setup
>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>John
>>>Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>
>>>I would try that.
>>>
>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All
>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>> my
>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is,
>>>> is
>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>> setup?
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>that
>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>you
>>>for sure.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>Austin
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>prime the system.
>>>
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: gaskets
>
>
>All
>Has anyone have experience of purchasing gaskets sets from Ebay?
>Check the following item on Ebay 220023208778
>
>Great deal but is it worth the chance?
>
>I am going to go ahead to decarbon my 447 then I really know what the
>condition of this used engine.
>
>John
>Independence, OR
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "RotaxEngines-List Digest Server" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:57 PM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/05/06
>
>
>> *
>>
>> ================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ================================================
>>
>> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>> the
>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>> editor
>> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>> HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.html
>>
>> Text Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.txt
>>
>>
>> ==============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ==============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 4
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Today's Message Index:
>> ----------------------
>>
>> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 2. 07:27 AM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 3. 07:27 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 1
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>> Normal procedure when a system has no high point
>> bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
>> is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
>> this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
>> Based on experience some engine coolant systems
>> do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
>> do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
>> after the first fill and some will self purge.
>> Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
>> pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
>> store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
>> start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
>> steady. You might have to get another pressure
>> cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
>> Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
>> that may have caused a place where the bubble
>> could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
>>
>> At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>McKay III"
>>>
>>>Paul:
>>>
>>>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is
>>>no
>>>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>>>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>>>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>Hugh,
>>>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>
>>>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>==============
>>>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>> >McKay III"
>>> >
>>> >Thom/Gilles:
>>> >
>>> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when
>>> >I
>>> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>> >down,
>>> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>> >existing
>>> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>> >the
>>> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>> >to
>>> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>> >with
>>> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>> >on
>>> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>> >free
>>> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>> >
>>> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>> >Green
>>> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>> >thank
>>> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>> >
>>> >Hugh
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>> >Thesee
>>> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>> >To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>> >Test
>>> >Run
>>> >
>>> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>> >
>>> >Hi Thom,
>>> >
>>> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>> > > value
>>> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >Agreed.
>>> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>> >Nice discussion.
>>> >
>>> >Best regards,
>>> >Gilles
>>> >http://contrails.free.fr
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 2
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>> Hugh,
>> I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
>> instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
>> starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
>> has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
>> missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
>> design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than
>> sorry.
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 3
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>> flying.
>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>> Paul
>> ==============
>>
>> At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
>>>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>>>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
>>>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL
>>>see
>>>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>>>
>>>-Bruce
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>> > rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>> > To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hugh,
>>> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>> >
>>> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>> > Regards, Paul
>>> >
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 4
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com>
>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>> rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
>>> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>> flying.
>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>>> Paul
>> Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to the
>> ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still
>> well
>> within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the oil
>> stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a
>> hot
>> afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried to
>> climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check it
>> out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300
>> on
>> rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant,
>> and
>> no more problems. (This was a 912s)
>>
>> -Bruce
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
Good stuff.
I had plane that I was test flying last year for a guy with a 503 single
carb. I forget the egts at the time but it lost power on climbout and would
only get about 5000 rpm max.
I not sure what happened but I landed and tried several crop hops after that
and it would get full power and just get airbourne and then lose power .
This happened to me a few more times. I was convinced that is was a fuel
starvation problem.
Don't ask me why but I turned off the fuel at the tank valve and it was a
ball type i think , you know about 1/4 turn to make it open or closed. I
ran it till it stopped taxing.
Then I opened fuel again and primed it - hit the key -- and it was running
.
Tried again to take off and it was un event ful so i taxi back to shop and
tied down to post by tailwheel. I ran it wide open for three minutes
without any troubles.
I then untied it and took off........I flew it a few more hours over the
next few days totally un-eventful. The owner has over 50 hours since then
and no troubles.
I can only guess that ther wasa restriction in the valve that came lose when
i turned it or a flake of something in the tank that is not there now . I
advised the owner that the tank should be thoroughly flushed out but as
ususal it has not been done yet. He says well it works ok now so why mess
with it . I hope I won't report on this plane again that it went down to
fuel starvation.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:55 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 447
>
>>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>
> Dave
> I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11
> hours ago. It appears to be holding up.
> I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the
> piston rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust.
> Nothing excessive. The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I
>>will see if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
> My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a
> feeling it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the
> cause. The only thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught
> it pretty quickly and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows,
> things happened pretty fast and I wasn't interested in watching the
> instruments at the time, just to get myself back on the ground before
> things really went south.
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 11:57 PM
>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 09/07/06
>>
>>*
>>
>> =================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> =================================================
>>
>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>the
>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>editor
>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>>HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.html
>>
>>Text Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.txt
>>
>>
>> ===============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ===============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/07/06: 3
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Today's Message Index:
>>----------------------
>>
>> 1. 07:23 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>> 2. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (Dave)
>> 3. 07:58 PM - gaskets (John Esch)
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 1
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>>attitude and
>>notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage indication. I leveled
>>off
>>and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my EGTs and notice that #2
>>cylinder
>>was going through 1000 degrees, #1 cylinder was normal, with both CHTs
>>about
>>10-20 degrees above normal.
>>I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no
>>problems.
>>Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement but I had
>>my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back to the
>>runway
>>to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue again.
>>Applied full
>>throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with the brakes and did not
>>want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same issue, a RPM drop with
>>full
>>throttle was reached. I didn't have time to notice the other guages and,
>>yes,
>>I did get airborne. I just closed the throttle, landed, and taxied home to
>>put the Hurricane to bed.
>>I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am
>>going
>>to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th owner on
>>this
>>aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I think it has
>>all
>>the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has been flown on a
>>regular
>>basis and hangared all the time.
>>John
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>
>>>*
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>the
>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>editor
>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>>HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>
>>>Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh
>>McKay III)
>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Dave
>>Austin)
>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh
>>McKay III)
>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Jack
>>Kuehn)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>
>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine
>>>tech.)
>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>as
>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>concerning
>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>
>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>rid
>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>bottle.
>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>has
>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle
>>>to
>>>the halfway point.
>>>
>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>owners
>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit
>>>Builders
>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>up
>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>my
>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>on
>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>is
>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>>
>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>to
>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>because
>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>friends".
>>>
>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>experience
>>>in FLYING.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>Allegro 2000
>>>N661WW
>>>912UL
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>
>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>the
>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>>to
>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>with
>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>on
>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>free
>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>
>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>Green
>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>Thesee
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>
>>>Hi Thom,
>>>
>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>> value
>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>Nice discussion.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Gilles
>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>Thom,
>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>pump off. Paul
>>>===================
>>>
>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>All
>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>>447,
>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>from the
>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper
>>>setup
>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>John
>>>Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>
>>>I would try that.
>>>
>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All
>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>> my
>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is,
>>>> is
>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>> setup?
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>that
>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>you
>>>for sure.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>Austin
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>prime the system.
>>>
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 2
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>>They can collapse and you must use a heavy wall line made for impulse
>>line.
>>Regular fuel line is not ok.
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:22 AM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>>> attitude and notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage
>>> indication. I leveled off and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at
>>> my
>>> EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder was going through 1000 degrees, #1
>>> cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about 10-20 degrees above normal.
>>> I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with
>>> no
>>> problems. Now I know what people are going to say with the next
>>> statement
>>> but I had my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied
>>> back
>>> to the runway to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the
>>> issue
>>> again. Applied full throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with
>>> the brakes and did not want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the
>>> same
>>> issue, a RPM drop with full throttle was reached. I didn't have time to
>>> notice the other guages and, yes, I did get airborne. I just closed the
>>> throttle, landed, and taxied home to put the Hurricane to bed.
>>> I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I
>>> am
>>> going to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th
>>> owner on this aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and
>>> I
>>> think it has all the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has
>>> been flown on a regular basis and hangared all the time.
>>> John
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>>>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>>
>>>>*
>>>>
>>>> ================================================
>>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>>> ================================================
>>>>
>>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>>the
>>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
>>>>formatted
>>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>>editor
>>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>>
>>>>HTML Version:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>>
>>>>Text Version:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>>> ==============================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>>> ---
>>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>>----------------------
>>>>
>>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Dave Austin)
>>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Jack Kuehn)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>>airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>>
>>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject
>>>>and
>>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine
>>>>tech.)
>>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>>as
>>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>>concerning
>>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>>
>>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>>rid
>>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank
>>>>to
>>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>>bottle.
>>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>>has
>>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow
>>>>bottle
>>>>to
>>>>the halfway point.
>>>>
>>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>>owners
>>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit
>>>>Builders
>>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend
>>>>you
>>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead
>>>>of
>>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters
>>>>that
>>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you
>>>>have
>>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>>up
>>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>>my
>>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>>on
>>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>>is
>>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes
>>>>sense.
>>>>
>>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>>to
>>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>>because
>>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>>friends".
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>>experience
>>>>in FLYING.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>>Allegro 2000
>>>>N661WW
>>>>912UL
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net]
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>>
>>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when
>>>>I
>>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>>>down,
>>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>>why
>>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>>>existing
>>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>>the
>>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>>>to
>>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>>free
>>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>>with
>>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>>on
>>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>>free
>>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>>
>>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>>Green
>>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>>>thank
>>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>>Thesee
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>>
>>>>Hi Thom,
>>>>
>>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>>> value
>>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Agreed.
>>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>>Nice discussion.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Gilles
>>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thom,
>>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>>Regards, Paul
>>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>>pump off. Paul
>>>>===================
>>>>
>>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: John Esch <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>All
>>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>>my
>>>>447,
>>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>>from the
>>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a
>>>>proper
>>>>setup
>>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>>
>>>>I would try that.
>>>>
>>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All
>>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>>> my
>>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question
>>>>> is,
>>>>> is
>>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>>> setup?
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>>that
>>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that
>>>>after
>>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>>you
>>>>for sure.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh McKay
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>>Austin
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>>prime the system.
>>>>
>>>>Jack
>>>>
>>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing
>>>>>the
>>>>>oil
>>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>>it
>>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 3
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: gaskets
>>
>>
>>
>>All
>>Has anyone have experience of purchasing gaskets sets from Ebay?
>>Check the following item on Ebay 220023208778
>>
>>Great deal but is it worth the chance?
>>
>>I am going to go ahead to decarbon my 447 then I really know what the
>>condition of this used engine.
>>
>>John
>>Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "RotaxEngines-List Digest Server" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:57 PM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/05/06
>>
>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>> the
>>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
>>> formatted
>>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>> editor
>>> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>> HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.html
>>>
>>> Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 4
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Message Index:
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 2. 07:27 AM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 3. 07:27 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 1
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>> Normal procedure when a system has no high point
>>> bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
>>> is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
>>> this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
>>> Based on experience some engine coolant systems
>>> do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
>>> do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
>>> after the first fill and some will self purge.
>>> Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
>>> pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
>>> store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
>>> start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
>>> steady. You might have to get another pressure
>>> cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
>>> Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
>>> that may have caused a place where the bubble
>>> could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
>>>
>>> At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>>McKay III"
>>>>
>>>>Paul:
>>>>
>>>>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There
>>>>is
>>>>no
>>>>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>>>>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>>>>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>>>>
>>>>Hugh
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>>>>PWilson
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hugh,
>>>>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>>
>>>>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>>Regards, Paul
>>>>==============
>>>>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>> >McKay III"
>>>> >
>>>> >Thom/Gilles:
>>>> >
>>>> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped
>>>> >me
>>>> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed
>>>> >when
>>>> >I
>>>> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>>> >down,
>>>> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't
>>>> >know
>>>>why
>>>> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being
>>>> >cooled
>>>> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>>> >existing
>>>> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of
>>>> >plane,
>>>> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner
>>>> >on,
>>>> >the
>>>> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for
>>>> >air
>>>> >to
>>>> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches
>>>> >of
>>>>free
>>>> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>> >with
>>>> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane
>>>> >sitting
>>>> >on
>>>> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>> >free
>>>> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>> >
>>>> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>> >Green
>>>> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>>> >thank
>>>> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>> >
>>>> >Hugh
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>>>> >Gilles
>>>> >Thesee
>>>> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>> >To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>> >Test
>>>> >Run
>>>> >
>>>> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>> >
>>>> >Hi Thom,
>>>> >
>>>> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>> > > value
>>>> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> >Agreed.
>>>> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>> >Nice discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> >Best regards,
>>>> >Gilles
>>>> >http://contrails.free.fr
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 2
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>> Hugh,
>>> I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
>>> instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
>>> starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
>>> has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
>>> missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
>>> design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than
>>> sorry.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 3
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>> flying.
>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>>> Paul
>>> ==============
>>>
>>> At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not
>>>>specifically
>>>>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>>>>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans,
>>>>while
>>>>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL
>>>>see
>>>>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>>>>
>>>>-Bruce
>>>>
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>>> > rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>> > To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hugh,
>>>> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>> >
>>>> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>> > Regards, Paul
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 4
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com>
>>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>>> rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
>>>> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>>> flying.
>>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big
>>>> increase.
>>>> Paul
>>> Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to
>>> the
>>> ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still
>>> well
>>> within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the
>>> oil
>>> stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a
>>> hot
>>> afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried
>>> to
>>> climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check
>>> it
>>> out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300
>>> on
>>> rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant,
>>> and
>>> no more problems. (This was a 912s)
>>>
>>> -Bruce
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NYTerminat(at)aol.com |
John,
By any chance do you have a primer bulb in the fuel line? A friend of mine
has an C.G Hawk Ultralight and he was having surges in the engine. He replaced
the fuel line, cleaned the fuel tank, replaced the fuel pump and would
sometimes still have the surges. He was told to replace his bulb primer and that
took care of the problem. The check valve in the primer bulb was sticking. Just
a thought. Good luck.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/8/2006 10:58:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jfesch(at)earthlink.net writes:
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
Dave
I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11 hours
ago. It appears to be holding up.
I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the
piston rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust.
Nothing excessive. The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I
will see if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a
feeling it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the cause.
The only thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught it pretty
quickly and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows, things
happened pretty fast and I wasn't interested in watching the instruments at the
time, just to get myself back on the ground before things really went south.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Malcolmbru(at)aol.com |
I havent folowed the hole topic and dont like to go off on a tangent but
have you tried cheking the gage? they go bad prety fast just change the
conections and see if it makes a diferences the gage can be sent back for
calabration real cheep.or swap the sending units. if all lookes good and you
see no
sign of a temp spike on the piston or plug. mal michigan kit fox 582
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "frank & margie" <frank-margie(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Ref the following:
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 447
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
Dave
I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11
hours ago.
It appears to be holding up.
I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on
the piston
rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust. Nothing
excessive.
The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I
will see
if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have
a feeling
it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the cause. The
only
thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught it pretty
quickly
and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows, things happened
pretty
fast and I wasn't interested in watching the instruments at the time,
just
to get myself back on the ground before things really went south.
John
---------------------------------------------
John,
You probably have a crank seal going out. Ten year old 2-strokes
need to have crank seals replaced, and the bearings inspected by someone
who knows what to look for. Check www.greenskyadventures.com for a
discussion on this. I've been very impressed with the quality of their
work.
I ran a dual port Mikuni with one port blocked off, on a single carb
Rotax, for 10+ years, with no problems. I've heard of others using a "Y"
to connect to a single carb. The dual port pump is a good idea for
U/L's that have a large vertical lift from the tank to the
carb---Hurricane, Flightstar, etc. Another good idea is rebuilding the
pump every 100 hrs or 3 years max. Use only the factory kit, the copies
aren't as good. Fuel pump failures are too common. I'm probably going
to add a Facet electronic pump to my Flightstar, in series with the
Mikuni. Check the archives on The Kolb List for info on this.
In addition to the obvious things like correct engine temps, good
fuel and pulse lines, good fuel and oil-----there are three things I
think bear watching on a 2 stroke. Fuel pump diaphragms per my earlier
comment, crank seals, and bearing condition. Crank seals fail just
from age as well as use. Bearings are made from a type of steel that
will rust easily, if not kept in an oil film. Engines that don't get
run frequently have a much greater chance of rusting due to the oil film
drying out. I try not to let mine go more than a few weeks without
being run, and Rotax says use preservative oil if more than ONE week
until it's run again. Pennzoil makes a spray "fogging oil" that's easy
to use for bearing protection. I think Lockwood has the fogging oil and
the Mikuni pump kits.
The back section of the CPS catalog has a lot of good tecnical info
on 2 strokes.
Another thing we've found is NOT oiling the air filters per the
mfgr's instructions. Clean with solvent, and let the backflow from the
engine take care of oiling the filter.
Frank Clyma
Jacksonville FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | 582 RPM Variation |
I've got a 582 that likes to wander +/- 100-200 RPM when cruising at 5800.
(Actually, pretty much anytime.) It appears to be more than just prop
loading, as I have to chase it with the throttle, and not just the
elevator. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dcsfoto" <david(at)kelm.com> |
my 912 is 14 years old. According to Rotax shows that by S/N my engine is a 600
Hr 10 year engine.
If I have it overhauled by Rotax will it then be a 12 r 1500 hr engine?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60879#60879
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> |
Interesting question. Give the tech guys a call at Lockwood Aviation. I'm
sure they can tell you
George
>From: "dcsfoto" <david(at)kelm.com>
>Reply-To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 Overhaul
>Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:44:37 -0700
>
>
>my 912 is 14 years old. According to Rotax shows that by S/N my engine is a
>600 Hr 10 year engine.
>If I have it overhauled by Rotax will it then be a 12 r 1500 hr engine?
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60879#60879
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://www.windowsonecare.com/trial.aspx?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 912 Overhaul |
dcsfoto,
It is my belief that during an overhaul they do all the upgrades that
will lengthen the next recommended TBO. But, you should ask the Rotax
repair station, you intend to use, that question.
By the way, last week I contacted Aero Propulsion Technologies in
Canada about the current cost of a 912 overhaul, not because ours is
due, but to allocate enough money to do the overhaul when it is needed.
Their current price for a 912UL overhaul is about US$8,100.
If you ask around, please let us all know who quotes you how much and
the answer to the TBO question.
Thom in Buffalo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "frank & margie" <frank-margie(at)worldnet.att.net> |
REF:
I've got a 582 that likes to wander +/- 100-200 RPM when cruising at
5800.
(Actually, pretty much anytime.) It appears to be more than just prop
loading, as I have to chase it with the throttle, and not just the
elevator. Any ideas?
----------------------------------------------
Guy,
How old are your crank seals? They'll do funny things when just
starting to leak. Email Green Sky or Lockwood and ask their advise.
Frank Clyma
Jacksonville, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | New 912 Engine Starting Problem |
Gentlemen:
After running my new Rotax 912UL in my Allegro 2000 for four successful
trial runs, I decided to drain the main tank and refill it with new fuel. I
drained the tank completely through the low point drain and refilled the
tank about half full. When I tried to re-start the engine, it would not hit.
It just turns over and over. Ignition is on, choke is on, and I am operating
the electric fuel pump during the start sequence. I have tried three times
to start the engine with the same result. I have done nothing different from
the initial four runs other than draining the tank and refilling. Could I
have a vapor lock or trapped air somewhere? I would think that the electric
fuel pump would take care of air or a vapor lock in the lines between the
pump and the carbs. Fuel bowls have stayed dry. Any suggestions how to find
the problem, and correct it?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
N661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New 912 Engine Starting Problem |
Hi Hugh,
suggest to check the fuel lines to the carburetors with the electrical
fuerl pumps running. Could be, that you are sucking fuel from the tanks
to the electrical fuel pump. With the tank now half full (less pressure)
you might create vapour lock in the suction line from tank to electrical
pump.
Good luck
Thilo
----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh McKay III
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: New 912 Engine Starting Problem
Gentlemen:
After running my new Rotax 912UL in my Allegro 2000 for four
successful trial runs, I decided to drain the main tank and refill it
with new fuel. I drained the tank completely through the low point drain
and refilled the tank about half full. When I tried to re-start the
engine, it would not hit. It just turns over and over. Ignition is on,
choke is on, and I am operating the electric fuel pump during the start
sequence. I have tried three times to start the engine with the same
result. I have done nothing different from the initial four runs other
than draining the tank and refilling. Could I have a vapor lock or
trapped air somewhere? I would think that the electric fuel pump would
take care of air or a vapor lock in the lines between the pump and the
carbs. Fuel bowls have stayed dry. Any suggestions how to find the
problem, and correct it?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
N661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sonny <lostpilot28(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New 912 Engine Starting Problem |
Hi Hugh,
I typically run my electric fuel pump until my 2 psi fuel pressure light goes out
plus about 5 seconds. This puts fuel in the float bowls and pressurizes the
fuel lines. I've never had a starting problem. My guess is that you not only
drained fuel from the tanks, but the lines as well (gravity fed back to the
tanks).
Regards,
Sonny W.
----- Original Message ----
From: Hugh McKay III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:00:50 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: New 912 Engine Starting Problem
Gentlemen:
After running my new Rotax 912UL in my Allegro 2000 for four successful trial runs,
I decided to drain the main tank and refill it with new fuel. I drained the
tank completely through the low point drain and refilled the tank about half
full. When I tried to re-start the engine, it would not hit. It just turns over
and over. Ignition is on, choke is on, and I am operating the electric fuel
pump during the start sequence. I have tried three times to start the engine
with the same result. I have done nothing different from the initial four runs
other than draining the tank and refilling. Could I have a vapor lock or trapped
air somewhere? I would think that the electric fuel pump would take care
of air or a vapor lock in the lines between the pump and the carbs. Fuel bowls
have stayed dry. Any suggestions how to find the problem, and correct it?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
N661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New 912 Engine Starting Problem |
Try disconnecting the fuel lines at the carburetors, one at a time, and
turning on the electric pump briefly to clear the line. Make sure fuel
is flowing. I have had slow starting after draining things out, and I
do not think you have a real problem here, just no fuel getting to the
engine.
Jack
Hugh McKay III wrote:
> Gentlemen:
>
>
>
> After running my new Rotax 912UL in my Allegro 2000 for four
> successful trial runs, I decided to drain the main tank and refill it
> with new fuel. I drained the tank completely through the low point
> drain and refilled the tank about half full. When I tried to re-start
> the engine, it would not hit. It just turns over and over. Ignition is
> on, choke is on, and I am operating the electric fuel pump during the
> start sequence. I have tried three times to start the engine with the
> same result. I have done nothing different from the initial four runs
> other than draining the tank and refilling. Could I have a vapor lock
> or trapped air somewhere? I would think that the electric fuel pump
> would take care of air or a vapor lock in the lines between the pump
> and the carbs. Fuel bowls have stayed dry. Any suggestions how to find
> the problem, and correct it?
>
>
>
> Hugh McKay
>
> Allegro 2000
>
> N661WW
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New 912 Engine Starting Problem |
Hugh,
1) Is the fuel tank valve turned on? I know this is obvious but
sometimes we forget. I have
2) Are both mags on? I've forgotten this one too.
3) Does the fuel pressure gauge read in normal range with just the
electric boost pump on? It should with just the master on and the fuel
pump switch/cb on, and not cranking.
4) When you crank, does the fuel pressure change? With the engine
mechanical pump also doing its job, the fuel pressure reading should be
a little higher than with just the electric pump on.
If 3 & 4 are good, then you know you are getting fuel to the engine,
and the carbs, if there is no leak in the fuel system in the engine
compartment, which would be visually obvious with the upper cowl off.
This also means you are not getting vapor lock anywhere.
If the engine is cold, make sure that the choke is full on and the
throttle is completely closed. When cold the engine will not start if
the throttle is open even a little.
If it still won't start, remove the drip tray under one carb and then
the float bowl to see if the bowl has fuel at the proper level and the
float valve moves up and down okay. While you have the float bowl off,
check to see if the starting circuit jet is loose. The starting jet is
in the bottom of the little vertical cylindrical area in one corner of
the bowl. If it is loose it could affect starting mixture and if it
does start cause rough idling. Do this same thing for the other carb.
and then reassemble carefully making sure you get the bowl gaskets
seated properly.
If after trying all of this it does not crank, let us know and we'll
proceed from there.
Thom in Buffalo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Fwd: Release of REVISED MANDATORY Rotax Service Bulletins |
And NEW Service Instructions For 912 & 914 Series Engines]
Hi all,
As a follow up to our recent discussion on engine, oil and coolant
temperatures, here is the last update sent by Rotax.
The new manuals are downloadable from http://www.rotax-owner.com
Fortunately I had taken numerous data during the flight tests, so
correlating head-temps with coolant temp won't be difficult.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
-------- Message original --------
Sujet: Release of REVISED MANDATORY Rotax Service Bulletins And NEW
Service Instructions For 912 & 914 Series Engines
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:09:32 -0700
De: updates@rotax-owner.com
Rpondre : updates@rotax-owner.com
Pour: gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Dear Registered User;
The following REVISED MANDATORY SERVICE BULLETINS have been released by Rotax:
SB-912-043
SB-914-029
SB-912-043UL
SB-914-029UL CHANGE OF COOLANT SPECIFICATION ON ROTAX ENGINE TYPE 912 AND 914
(SERIES)
These new Service Bulletins may be downloaded from www.rotax-owner.com
SB-912-043 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SB-912-043&S_TYPE=NW
SB-914-029 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SB-914-029&S_TYPE=NW
SB-912-043UL - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SB-912-043UL&S_TYPE=NW
SB-914-029UL - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SB-914-029UL&S_TYPE=NW
** Important Note!
Rotax releases separate Service Bulletins for non-certified engine models. These
service bulletins only contain information regarding the non-certified engine
models affected by the service bulletin.
Full service bulletin information and instructions are found in the certified service
bulletin (without the UL designator).
Owners and operators of non-certified engine models must download and review both
the certified and UL versions of the service bulletin to obtain complete service
information.
SB-912-043 R1 /SB-914-029 R1 also requires the revision of several operator's and installation manuals. As service to Rotax Owners Association News users, these manual updates have been posted to the Rotax Owners Association News web site ( www.rotax-owner.com/manualrev/09_11_2006/mrSB9_043_029R1.htm )
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition the following NEW SERVICE INSTRUCTIONS have been released by Rotax:
SI-912-016
SI-914-019 SELECTION OF SUITABLE OPERATING FLUIDS FOR ROTAX ENGINE TYPE 912
AND 914 (SERIES)
These new Service Instructions may be downloaded from www.rotax-owner.com
SI-912-016 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SI-912-016&S_TYPE=NW
SI-914-019 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=aiprt&DOCID=SI-914-019&S_TYPE=NW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supplemental Information for Rotax Service Bulletins SB-912-043 R1 / SB-914-029
R1
This supplemental information is intended to provide additional background regarding
the changes to the coolant specification as set out in Rotax Service Bulletins
SB-912-043 R1 / SB-914-029 R1.
THIS SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION IS GENERAL IN NATURE AND IS NOT INTENDED TO REPLACE
THE INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THE SERVICE BULLETINS.
ALL OWNERS, OPERATORS AND MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL SHOULD OBTAIN AND CAREFULLY REVIEW
THE FULL TEXT OF EACH SERVICE BULLETIN.
After an investigation into a few isolated field reports, it was discovered that
in some instances conventional 50/50 water - glycol coolant mixture could begin
to boil off before the maximum cylinder head temperature was reached.
To address this issue and maintain the highest level of flight safety, Rotax issued
the initial version of Service Bulletin SB-912-043 / SB-914-029 in September
2004. This bulletin changed the coolant specification for the 912 & 914 engines
from a 50 / 50 water - glycol mixture to a 'waterless' coolant with a much
higher boiling point. This change was made to insure that coolant boil off
could not occur in any circumstances provided that the engine CHT limits were
respected.
Subsequent to the initial release of Service Bulletin SB-912-043 / SB-914-029,
Rotax has continued to examine this issue, and now recognizes that for some 912
& 914 engine installations conventional 50/50 water - glycol mixture coolant
may be a viable alternative. Conventional 50/50 water - glycol coolant solution
is inexpensive, readily available and has excellent heat transfer properties.
Understanding the benefits provided by conventional water - glycol coolant in some
applications, Rotax has now released a new revision of Service Bulletin SB-912-043
/ SB-914-029. With the release Service Bulletin SB-912-043 R1 / SB-914-029
R1, use of conventional 50/50 water - glycol coolant is once again allowed,
provided certain conditions can be met.
In order for a 912 or 914 series engine to be safely operated with conventional
water - glycol coolant, SB-912-043 R1 / SB-914-029 R1 mandates that both cylinder
head temperatures AND coolant exit temperature must be monitored at all times.
Coolant exit temperature must never exceed the boiling point of 50/50 water
- glycol coolant mixture AND engine cylinder head temperatures must never
exceed the maximum permissible values set out in the appropriate engine Operators
Manual.
To meet these requirements a coolant temperature sensor and cockpit mounted coolant
temperature gauge must be installed in addition to CHT instrumentation.
The coolant temperature sensor must be installed in the coolant line between the
outlet of the expansion tank and the inlet of the coolant radiator (please
refer to the Cooling System section of the appropriate engine installation manual
for more details). Installation of the coolant temperature sensor must not
impede or restrict the coolant flow. The installed coolant temperature gauge
must be appropriately marked with the maximum allowable coolant exit temperature.
Installation of the coolant temperature sensor and gauge will allow the pilot to
monitor the coolant temperature throughout the entire engine operational range.
If for any reason the coolant temperature approaches or exceeds the maximum
permissible value (approx. 120? C (248? F) in a cooling system pressurized
to 18 psi (1.2 bar)) the pilot will be able to take the appropriate action (reduce
power setting and / or terminate flight).
Once again, installation of a coolant temperature gauge DOES NOT alter the requirements
for the monitoring of engine cylinder head temperatures and respecting
published CHT limits.
In some aircraft installations, the liquid cooling system may not be able to maintain
a coolant exit temperature below the boiling point of conventional 50/50
water - glycol coolant. This may be due to the size of the coolant radiator,
the design of the engine cowling, operating profile, or other related factors.
In applications where the coolant exit temperature may exceed the boiling
point of conventional water - glycol coolant, SB-912-043 R1 / SB-914-029 R1 requires
the use of 'waterless' coolant only.
When 'waterless' coolant is used, monitoring of the coolant exit temperature is
not required. The boiling point of the 'waterless' coolant is higher than the
maximum allowable cylinder head temperature, therefore the coolant cannot be
boiled off without exceeding the engine CHT limits.
Use of 'waterless' coolant DOES NOT alter the requirements for the monitoring of
engine cylinder head temperatures and respecting published CHT limits.
In cases where 'waterless' coolant is used and engine cylinder head temperatures
exceed the maximum permissible values, the coolant system must be repaired or
modified in such a manner as to increase the cooling capacity of the system.
More information regarding coolants for 912 & 914 series engines, including recommended
brand names, can be found in Rotax Service Information SI-912-016 / SI-914-019
(August 2006). All owners & operators of 912 & 914 series engines should
obtain a copy of this Service Information document.
If there is any question regarding the selection of the correct coolant for a particular
engine installation, the engine owner / operator is strongly encouraged
to contact the nearest authorized Rotax Service Center or their aircraft manufacturer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail update is provided as a free service to registered users.
Register with Rotax Owners Association News today!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9XX: TCP, Dip stick, Hydraulic Lock |
Hi Eric,
Lots of subjects. Long discussion.
Syn oil:
The purpose of TCP (a fuel additive, not an oil additive) is to keep
the lead deposits from clinging to the valve stems. When this happens
the friction becomes greater than the spring force and the valve
hangs open causing the valve to burn and requiring a top overhaul to
correct. The TCP also helps prevent deposits in the piston rings.
Thus it is very desirable if using leaded fuel. I suppose there might
be some benefit in reducing sludge in the sump but I have never read
of that benefit. The stuff is commonly used in the lyc/cont engines
for the purpose stated. The kind of oil used in the engine is not
relevant to the above discussion
I forget what the oil additive is that Lyc specified for my C172 but
it was not TCP. Sorry. Maybe someone can fill in that detail. I must
say that all the engine issues I had with my Lyc had to do with the
valve sticking other than that Lyc said that for them to warrantee
the engine I had to reduce the oil change intervals and use the oil
additive. They just replaced the jugs to correct the sticking valves
and did not require me to use TCP.
Comments:
IMO, to be safe change the oil at short intervals and use semi syn.
But, is there a real benefit over a high quality petro oil? These
days the petro oil used in cars does not prevent the 200k mile engine
life. If one is using syn to protect against high temps it would be
more logical to get a proper oil cooler. If one likes the easier
starting benefit on syn then use petro with a lower viscosity and/or
a stronger RG battery. If one is using syn to get lower friction I
believe the benefit is very small. If one is using syn to extend the
oil change interval then the user is mistaken as the change interval
actually needs to be shorter.
The arguments for syn/semi syn are very weak when using leaded fuel.
Rotax does not REQUIRE syn with unleaded fuel. It is just one of the
options. Rotax strongly recommends using the motorcycle oil that has
the gear lube. This is applicable with petro, Syn, & semi syn. Not
many oils available in the US have been tested. To bad for us.
I wonder if the latest oil formulation has reduced the sludge
formation. There have been many recalls of autos due to sludge
formation caused by the use of petro oils in engines with high oil
temps. I noticed that Rotax now Requires the use of service grade
"SG" or higher
Dip Stick:
Another change that evolved from the US EPA wherein the oil
chemistry reduced the anti-foam additive because it was contaminating
the cat converters. However, this oil resulted in an improvement in
fuel economy due to additives that reduced friction. This change
applies to all oils including Syn. Rotax has identified some oils
that did not change as they were motorcycle specific and you will
find them on the approved list. Rotax raised the oil level in the dry
sump tank to account for the additional aeration due to foam and they
wanted to avoid any compromise in the lube system. Make me wonder how
such a small change could make a difference? There are oils available
that should not require the new dipstick due to old formulation, but
how long will they be available? Rotax published a new list this week.
Hydraulic lock:
This is caused by non-optimal location of the dry sump tank and the
use of very low viscosity oil. The higher the tank is then gravity
overcomes the ability of the oil pump and other system flow
resistance prevent leakage/drainback into the sump. This is
exacerbated by using very thin oil, especially after a hot shutdown
when using an oil like like 5Wxx (or full syn?). On older engines
wear in the pump creates less resistance to oil draining. I suppose
that one could increase the resistance in the oil line from tank to
pump to lessen this issue. Or add a flapper check valve for the
increased resistance. Beware, any change from the Rotax design
requires testing of oil flow rate and pressure at the pump inlet to
avoid engine failure.
BTW this is a generic issue with all dry sump engines but seems to be
more of an issue with the Rotax. Just be sure to check the oil level
before every flight. And if it is lower than it was when you parked
the plane after a flight then take corrective action. The auto racers
do not have this issue very often due to their use of very high
viscosity oil like SAE 50 and their use of scavenge oil pumps with
high back flow resistance instead of using crankcase pressure like Rotax does.
A 10Wxx or 20Wxx oil would be a recommendation of an action to take
to prevent drain back.
Comments anyone? Please cross post to both lists using the "reply to
All" button.
I hope this helps, Paul
=============================
At 03:49 AM 9/16/2006, you wrote:
>How about this angle to the thread?
>
>We know that Rotax states that the 912 motor requires synthetic
>(with no 100 LL) or semi synthetic (for when 100 LL) is being used,
>for reason of lubing the reduction drive.
>
>But how about if you purchase the TCP lead scavenger fuel additive
>from John at Sport Plane LLC / Kitfox. ( side note: John, why don't
>you have your S.P.llc catalogue on your Kitfox site ?)
>The way I am thinking of this is; If I use the TCP to remove the
>lead, then there is no issue with the oil I use and we could use
>full synthetic.
>
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>Another question. (New topic, KITFOX 912 OIL TANK DIP STICK)
>For us who have the 912 with the oil tank behind and above the motor.
>Why are we using the new replacement dip stick?
>I know that there was a Rotax service memo about this.
>This will only load the system more than full and you get a dirty
>belly or you get hydraulic lock after the plane sits for a while and
>gravity drained the oil to the lowest places.
>This happened to me. It is a good thing that I always hand prop a
>couple of times with power off. I would hate to think of what would
>happen if I used the starter! Could have bent something.
>
>Has anyone had the hydraulic lock problem?
>
>Eric, Atlanta.
>
>
>Mark,
>
>All I know about this subject is from the Rotax bulletin on preferred oils
>and the Rotax seminars.
>
>Synthetics are recommended by them for unleaded fuels only. When using
>occasional leaded fuels they recommend a synthetic blend or full mineral if
>using 100 LL.
>
>If you would like to read their bulletin on this, follow the links below to
>the numbered bulletin. When I change oil, I wipe down the oil tank with a
>papertowl and without fail, if I have been using 100LL as in a long cross
>country, I get a pasty residue from the tank. It is light gray colored.
>With the exception of the gear additive recommended by Rotax because the
>
>engine oil also lubricates the gear box, I am comfortable with their general
>recommendations for all four stroke engine types.
>
>It would be good of course to have other data from other engine types to
>eliminate the need to extrapolate.
>
>
>http://www.rotax-owner.com/
>
>SERVICE DOCUMENT RETRIEVAL SYSTEM
>
>
>SI-18-1997 (2004)
>
>SI-912-016 (2006)
>
>Lowell
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Thompson" <kr2(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question on oil
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Thompson"
> >
> > Lowel what do you think about running fully synthetic oil in an air cooled
> > VW engine using 100LL,........I hope this is ok because I am fly this
> > morning to fuel up again with 100LL,This will be the first flight using
> > synthetic oil..............
> >
> >
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
> >> To:
> >> Date: 9/10/2006 12:08:14 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question on oil
> >>
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
> >>
> >> Dee,
> >>
> >> The value in a full synthetic is the higher temps they can tolerate, the
> > hit
> >> is their inability to keep the lead residues in suspension. If you fly
> >> strictly with car gas, the synthetic should be fine. If you occasionally
> >> use 100LL then you might want to avoid synthetics. This from the Rotax
> > oil
> >> recommendation bulletin. The Rotax 912 series engines use the same oil
> > in
> >> the engine as well as the gear box so they recommend a motorcycle engine
> > oil
> >> with the gear additive. If your engine is similar, you might want to
> > check
> >> the Rotax owners association website for info.
> >>
> >> Lowell
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> |
| Subject: | 582 Water pump housing ? |
Does anyone have experience with a leaking gasket under the water pump
housing on a Model 99 DCDI 582 (Blue head) ?
I have a leaking gasket that was replaced with a new one, (the old one
started leaking after I switched to DexCool from Prestone) and is
torque to
specs 70 ip and it is still leaking. Nothing anywhere said to use gasket
sealer or any silicon so the gasket was replaced without any.
The leak is under the front lower bolt and the rear lower bolt (the
engine
is sitting with the head upright) and is leaking only in
drops-at-a-time.
The water temp is also high (and always has been) around 180-185F.
Should I use a gasket or silicon material on the gasket and replace it?
Any
other ideas or experiences.
Baffled in Anchorage!
Rob Stapleton
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> |
| Subject: | R-582 Water pump housing |
Does anyone have information on whether or not one is to use gasket
sealer
on the water pump housing gasket, and if so what type is acceptable to
Rotax
standards?
Rob Stapleton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Malcolmbru(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 582 Water pump housing ? |
Rob there was a posting a little while ago on the same topic was that you?
first 180 on the temp is at the higher end. properly cleaned gasket
surface is a must. then is the pump housing warped? set it on a piece of
glass and some very fine wet sand paper and smoothie it off in a figure 8 motion
checking for warpage if you find any markes on eather surfice from a raser
blade or anything used to clean the old gasket off you could try a lock tight
product to fill the gap and seal the gaskit .but do not try to sand or grind
out any gouges on the housing or motor block good luck mal michigan kit
foxer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 Water pump housing ? |
Hi Guys ,
A few things -- what is leaking antifreeze or oil ? On the 582 one
of those lower bolt holes goes into crankcase and I fixed mine by using
blue loctite on threads after cleaning hole with thinnners.
And Temps for 582 I have found that mine runs 175 to 185 all the time
and have no issues as per my gauge. I have a 7 pound rad cap and never
had an issue except bugs in rad blocking some airflow. I have been told
by Rotax experts that 180 to 200 is the caution zone but not the end of
the world like some think.
Hope this helps.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 582 Water pump housing ?
Rob there was a posting a little while ago on the same topic was that
you?
first 180 on the temp is at the higher end. properly cleaned
gasket surface is a must. then is the pump housing warped? set it on a
piece of glass and some very fine wet sand paper and smoothie it off in
a figure 8 motion checking for warpage if you find any markes on eather
surfice from a raser blade or anything used to clean the old gasket off
you could try a lock tight product to fill the gap and seal the gaskit
.but do not try to sand or grind out any gouges on the housing or motor
block good luck mal michigan kit foxer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 Water pump housing ? |
At 04:22 PM 9/16/2006, you wrote:
>Should I use a gasket or silicon material on the gasket and replace it?
>Any other ideas or experiences.
In the interests of science I fired up my HomebuiltHELP 582 tear down DVD
to see what I could learn about the water pump housing. Now unfortunately
this DVD only covers tear-down and inspection, and not re-assembly. (Of
COURSE it does, otherwise we wouldn't need to pay good money to have
someone do it for us!) Anyway, it was clear during disassembly that there
was no sealant on the water pump gasket. The Rotax manual does call for
something called Loctite 221 on the threads. I remember a thread on the
Kitfox list where the latter was deemed to be very important, else water
can leak past the bolts into the crankcase, thereby leaning the mixture and
raising EGT's.
You will have to beg borrow or steal a straight edge, (and I mean a REAL
straight edge,) and check your mating surfaces. If uneven you will have to
true them. One trick, if you are fastidious enough, is to put valve lapping
compound between the mating surfaces, (with no gasket,) and gently rub them
together. You MUST, however, get all the compound out of the wetted area
lest you get it into the coolant, with the resulting deleterious effect on
your water pump seals.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 Water pump housing ? |
On the earlier 582s, some of the water pump bolts holes penetrated
through to the water housing, so the gasket would be in effective in
sealing leakage around the bolt.
It would be worth checking whether your water pump bolt holes bottom
-out in the casting or go through in to the water gallery.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Stapleton
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 Water pump housing ?
Does anyone have experience with a leaking gasket under the water pump
housing on a Model 99 DCDI 582 (Blue head) ?
I have a leaking gasket that was replaced with a new one, (the old one
started leaking after I switched to DexCool from Prestone) and is
torque to specs 70 ip and it is still leaking. Nothing anywhere said to
use gasket sealer or any silicon so the gasket was replaced without any.
The leak is under the front lower bolt and the rear lower bolt (the
engine is sitting with the head upright) and is leaking only in
drops-at-a-time. The water temp is also high (and always has been)
around 180-185F.
Should I use a gasket or silicon material on the gasket and replace
it? Any other ideas or experiences.
Baffled in Anchorage!
Rob Stapleton
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
| From: | "mikePuyallup" <mikePuyallup(at)hotmail.com> |
I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying a plane
with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure rates? (Everyone who
tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be quoting motorcycle engine stories.)
Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
What about tbo's. Do 582's make it to 300 hours?
Any help is appreciated
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62651#62651
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
The 912 is a far superior engine, both in terms of reliability and
cost. By the time you get 1500 hours on a 582 you will have rebuilt it
5 times, and burned much more fuel than a 912. The 912 has a 1500 hour
TBO and if you compare the cost of the two engines over 1500 hours you
will find that the 912 is less expensive. The 582 may be reliable as
long as you keep up on maintenance, but the 912 is surely a more
reliable engine. I have one with 100 hours and it has earned my trust.
Maintenance is easy and not expensive. You also get much more power
than with any two stroke. Your Kitfox will perform far better with a 912.
Jack
Sky Ranger N233GH
mikePuyallup wrote:
>
>I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying a plane
with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
>
>Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure rates? (Everyone who
tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be quoting motorcycle engine stories.)
>
>Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
>
>What about tbo's. Do 582's make it to 300 hours?
>
>
>Any help is appreciated
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62651#62651
>
>
>
>
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847
(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 (cell)
(406) 273-2563 (fax)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> |
| Subject: | 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
I am not using a 582 in a Kitfox but I would venture to say that the 582 is
a very resiliant engine.
I think a 300 hour is a more of a recommendation and it depends if these are
all cruise hours or hard climb hours.
The hardest thing on an engine is letting it sit and then running it hard. I
have seen 582s with 1000+ hours on them that didn't need a re-build yet.
The trick, fly often, watch your EGT temps (1050-1150F)!
RS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mikePuyallup
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:02 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox
I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying a
plane with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure rates? (Everyone
who tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be quoting motorcycle engine
stories.)
Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
What about tbo's. Do 582's make it to 300 hours?
Any help is appreciated
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62651#62651
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> |
| Subject: | 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
I would agree with every point except the statement that you will have to
rebuild five time in 1500 hours. Perhaps two times would be a more accurate
statement.
RS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Kuehn
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox
The 912 is a far superior engine, both in terms of reliability and
cost. By the time you get 1500 hours on a 582 you will have rebuilt it
5 times, and burned much more fuel than a 912. The 912 has a 1500 hour
TBO and if you compare the cost of the two engines over 1500 hours you
will find that the 912 is less expensive. The 582 may be reliable as
long as you keep up on maintenance, but the 912 is surely a more
reliable engine. I have one with 100 hours and it has earned my trust.
Maintenance is easy and not expensive. You also get much more power
than with any two stroke. Your Kitfox will perform far better with a 912.
Jack
Sky Ranger N233GH
mikePuyallup wrote:
>
>I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying
a plane with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
>
>Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure rates? (Everyone
who tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be quoting motorcycle engine
stories.)
>
>Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
>
>What about tbo's. Do 582's make it to 300 hours?
>
>
>Any help is appreciated
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62651#62651
>
>
>
>
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847
(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 (cell)
(406) 273-2563 (fax)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
I've had a 503 and a 582 and now a 912 none of them quit on me. I love the
912 the 81 hp is great, it's worth it to pay more. You get to fly at least
twice as long. And if you get the 912 you don't have to fly wondering what
it would be like if I did what I should of done. I do wonder what the 912 S
would of been like ;-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
I think first you want to insure you have a match of engine and plane. The
earlier Kitfox models I,II and III were really meant to be powered by the 2
stroke 532, 582 with the later models powered by the 582 or 912.
I have a Kitfox III with a 582 (older version-non bluehead) with 400 hours
on the plane. I do believe in maintenance and rebuids as specified by
Rotax, so I did have it rebuilt at 300 hours. The engine has been
completely trouble free for 400 hours. It does require you to pay attention
to EGTs whille flying and every 50-100 hours to decarbon the pistion/rings.
The 582 will require more attention than the 912 and in a longer term cost
evaluation will probably cost a little more, however the money is spread out
over time.
I currently have a 912uls on another plane that I just finished building
so no long term report yet. The reason I choose the 912uls is that it is
just about bullet proof. I've been to a number of seminars by Phil Lockwood
and was very impressed with the abuse the engine can withstand.
George May
>From: "mikePuyallup" <mikePuyallup(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:02:06 -0700
>
>
>
>I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying
>a plane with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
>
>Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure rates? (Everyone
>who tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be quoting motorcycle engine
>stories.)
>
>Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
>
>What about tbo's. Do 582's make it to 300 hours?
>
>
>Any help is appreciated
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62651#62651
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Searchsay hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
At 07:02 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:
>I have been thinking of buying a Kitfox or Avid and can't decide if buying
>a plane with a 912 is worth the extra cost.
You can do a direct cost / benefit using info from the web and here. One
item to consider, though, is that you'll easily get the extra $6k back on
resale. 582's don't sell well. So I guess that solves the cost / benefit
question right off the bat!
>Does anyone know what is the difference in engine failure
>rates? (Everyone who tells me that two strokes are bad seems to be
>quoting motorcycle engine stories.)
From what I can tell, 582's require a lot more attention. You have to
watch EGT's, CHT's, and water temperatures diligently. (I use a GRT EIS.)
You have to de-carbon. And, of course, you have to keep up with the oil.
(This is probably the largest PITA, since literally no FBO's sell 2-stroke
oil. If I go on a long cross-country, not only do I have to carry a case of
oil, I'll have to have some shipped to strategic locations to get back!)
912's appear even more bullet-proof than Lycomings, et. al. once set up
correctly. All you have to do is watch max RPM.
>Is there a gearbox /engine (blue/grey head?) combination to avoid?
I have a grey head and watch water temperatures carefully. I understand
that using silica-free coolant solves the problem with the grey-head's
rotary valve seals, as well. Make sure you get the "newer" crank, though,
as a replacement is about $800 in parts alone.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
| From: | "mikePuyallup" <mikePuyallup(at)hotmail.com> |
Wow, thanks for the replies so fast.
I am going to buy in the winter or spring, not build, so the differnece in cost
seems to be worth it.
It seems that catastrophic engine failure is really not that big a worry, it is
more of an issue of constant rebuilding and poor fuel burn.
Any props to avoid? Someone told me not to use IVO's in the rain due to abbrasion(I
live near Seattle)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62937#62937
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
In re: composite props in the rain
Ivoprop uses a stainless steel leading edge strip for erosion protection.
Although electroformed nickel is preferred for this, that is no reason to
avoid a composite prop protected with SS. The protection is still real and
the only difference for light aircraft, if any, would be how long the
leading edge lasts.
Nickel is the choice of most but not all propeller manufacturers primarily
because it offers the best compromise between protection from rain erosion
and sand erosion (with the emphasis on compromise - there are other
materials that are better for rain or sand but not for both). Another
advantage of electroformed nickel is that the thickness of the nickel
abrasion strip varies from leading edge to trailing edge, and from tip to
root, with the tip and leading edge considerably thicker than the trailing
edge and root end. This permits a lower mass abrasion strip with longer
life than that which is possible with a piece of constant thickness
stainless steel bent into the approximate shape of an airfoil.
My former employer was the exclusive supplier of abrasion strips to a very
well known propeller manufacturer. Abrasion strips for turboprop aircraft
sold to that manufacturer for over $200 in fairly high volume. A piece of
stainless steel sheet cut to size and bent into a U cross section would cost
a small fraction of that, so it's obvious why a prop blade that sells for
not much more than $200 has a SS leading edge.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
mikePuyallup
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox
Wow, thanks for the replies so fast.
I am going to buy in the winter or spring, not build, so the differnece in
cost seems to be worth it.
It seems that catastrophic engine failure is really not that big a worry, it
is more of an issue of constant rebuilding and poor fuel burn.
Any props to avoid? Someone told me not to use IVO's in the rain due to
abbrasion(I live near Seattle)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62937#62937
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox |
I have an Ivo prop on my 912, and though it is OK, I have not been able
to get the SS leading edge tape to last more than 10 or 15 hours. If I
were to buy another prop now it would not be and Ivo because of this.
Take a look at:
http://www.ultralightprops.com/gsc_systems/gscsystems.htm
Jack
Rob Housman wrote:
>
>In re: composite props in the rain
>
>Ivoprop uses a stainless steel leading edge strip for erosion protection.
>Although electroformed nickel is preferred for this, that is no reason to
>avoid a composite prop protected with SS. The protection is still real and
>the only difference for light aircraft, if any, would be how long the
>leading edge lasts.
>
>Nickel is the choice of most but not all propeller manufacturers primarily
>because it offers the best compromise between protection from rain erosion
>and sand erosion (with the emphasis on compromise - there are other
>materials that are better for rain or sand but not for both). Another
>advantage of electroformed nickel is that the thickness of the nickel
>abrasion strip varies from leading edge to trailing edge, and from tip to
>root, with the tip and leading edge considerably thicker than the trailing
>edge and root end. This permits a lower mass abrasion strip with longer
>life than that which is possible with a piece of constant thickness
>stainless steel bent into the approximate shape of an airfoil.
>
>My former employer was the exclusive supplier of abrasion strips to a very
>well known propeller manufacturer. Abrasion strips for turboprop aircraft
>sold to that manufacturer for over $200 in fairly high volume. A piece of
>stainless steel sheet cut to size and bent into a U cross section would cost
>a small fraction of that, so it's obvious why a prop blade that sells for
>not much more than $200 has a SS leading edge.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
>A070
>Airframe complete
>Irvine, CA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>mikePuyallup
>Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:05 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 582 vs 912 Safety in a Ktifox
>
>
>
>Wow, thanks for the replies so fast.
>
>I am going to buy in the winter or spring, not build, so the differnece in
>cost seems to be worth it.
>
>
>It seems that catastrophic engine failure is really not that big a worry, it
>is more of an issue of constant rebuilding and poor fuel burn.
>
>Any props to avoid? Someone told me not to use IVO's in the rain due to
>abbrasion(I live near Seattle)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62937#62937
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "frank & margie" <frank-margie(at)worldnet.att.net> |
REF:
Guy,
>
> How old are your crank seals? They'll do funny things when just
> starting to leak. Email Green Sky or Lockwood and ask their advise.
>
>Frank Clyma
>Jacksonville, FL
>
Yes. How about 14 years old? I guess it's time for a rebuild. (But Bob
Robertson already told me that.) What else happens when they start
leaking?
-----------------------------------------------
A 2 stroke won't do anything right when the crank seals leak.
Basically, the extra air sucked thru the seal leans out the mixture, and
then your temps go up (EGT especially). Then you get all the fun stuff
from an overtemp (if it goes high enuf) like engine seizure and glider
practice. Sometimes you can also see an oil film on the case end where
the mixture is being pushed out past the seal, it will leak in both
directions. Seals just starting to go will often give
intermittent/variable problems like wandering RPM and temp variations.
Sorry to be so late with my reply, been out of town.
------------------------
Just finished catching up on newer listings----you've gotten some good
answers/info form other folks. However, if it were me, I'd still have
the crank checked and the seals replaced, 14 years is too long for
aviation use, IMHO.
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | teardown or not to teardown |
All
I pulled my recoil starter assembly and noticed a small accumulation of
oil.
Since I am planning on decarbing it, should I consider of replacing the
PTO and Mag side seals?
Thanks
John
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Malcolmbru(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: teardown or not to teardown |
On first assembly the factory puts grease inside the seal before pushing it
on the crank sometimes they put too much and it is forced out.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SJA" <salbore(at)netzero.net> |
Before I contact the mechanic:
Last week I had a partially blocked main jet on the right carb. Cleaned it, floats
fine, etc. Checked the left, and, it looked good. Replaced the plugs (it
was time) and all looked about the same = tannish.
Now, on the left, Ive got a fuel leak that seems to come from the carb. The blow
by tube feels dry. But the bottom of the carb is wet, and a leak is dripping
under the carb.
So just for start: Is it the gasket? The blow-by?
Any ideas?
Thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65446#65446
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Jeffers" <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net> |
Hi,
Could well be the gasket on the carb bowl. They do get displaced when you
refit and then get cut up. The problem is worse if you have the older type
of cork seals because they get displaced more easily and are more fragile.
The later seals are some sort of more rigid plastic that fit well into the
grooves.
Regards Pete Jeffers
PS you did not say which engine but I answer for the 4 strokes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SJA
Sent: 03 October 2006 13:58
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 fuel leak
Before I contact the mechanic:
Last week I had a partially blocked main jet on the right carb. Cleaned it,
floats fine, etc. Checked the left, and, it looked good. Replaced the
plugs (it was time) and all looked about the same = tannish.
Now, on the left, Ive got a fuel leak that seems to come from the carb. The
blow by tube feels dry. But the bottom of the carb is wet, and a leak is
dripping under the carb.
So just for start: Is it the gasket? The blow-by?
Any ideas?
Thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65446#65446
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "frank & margie" <frank-margie(at)worldnet.att.net> |
REF: All
I pulled my recoil starter assembly and noticed a small accumulation of
oil.
Since I am planning on decarbing it, should I consider of replacing the
PTO and Mag side seals?
--------------------------------------
John,
I know it's a pain, takes time, and costs $$$-----but aviation needs
to be treated with respect-----read that info on crank seals again on
the Green Sky website-----2 strokes will not run right if the crank
seals are leaking! I'd hate to see you become another statistic, not
to mention adding to the bad rep ultralights already have.
How many engine out forced landings have you had, so far? It ain't
a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN------and if you give murphy the
chance, it will be sooner-----
Frank Clyma
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Esch" <jfesch(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | tear down or not to tear down |
All
Another question is can a person, not a shop, replace the O-rings on the
crankshaft bearings (5) around the connecting rods on a 447 without
damaging the o-rings ?
John
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
All,
Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and
that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on my
Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or change
the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a
Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might beg/borrow/buy.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK> |
| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
Not sure what aircraft you're using this on, but by way of comparison I have
seen a 72" 3-blade Warp Drive used with 582 and C-box (3:1) on an Avid
Speedwind. It worked well.
The difference may have been in the backtaper on hte blades, which was
fairly extreme such that the chord length at hte tip was only about 1".
However, Warp Drive themselves set this up. So it might be worthwhile asking
them.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
>
> All,
> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and
> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on my
> Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or change
> the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a
> Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might
> beg/borrow/buy.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/14/06 |
| From: | "Tew, Stan" <Stan.Tew(at)revenue.alabama.gov> |
I have been running a 69" with 3 standard shaped blades on my 582 in
Kitfox for several years. In fact, this is the 2nd engine the prop has
been mounted on. I find it works great except that the mass moment
forces a high idle speed to reduce vibration.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 1:57 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/14/06
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-14.html
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-14.txt
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 10/14/06: 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:54 AM - Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan)
2. 10:47 AM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
All,
Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and
that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on
my
Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or
change
the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a
Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might
beg/borrow/buy.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
Not sure what aircraft you're using this on, but by way of comparison I
have
seen a 72" 3-blade Warp Drive used with 582 and C-box (3:1) on an Avid
Speedwind. It worked well.
The difference may have been in the backtaper on hte blades, which was
fairly extreme such that the chord length at hte tip was only about 1".
However, Warp Drive themselves set this up. So it might be worthwhile
asking
them.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
>
> All,
> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped
and
> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade
on my
> Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or
change
> the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has
a
> Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might
> beg/borrow/buy.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
At 08:06 AM 10/16/2006, you wrote:
>I have been running a 69" with 3 standard shaped blades on my 582 in
>Kitfox for several years.
Stan. What tip angle are you using? What are your wide-open and cruise
speeds? What is your climb rate? What model Kitfox is it?
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/06 |
| From: | "Tew, Stan" <Stan.Tew(at)revenue.alabama.gov> |
Guy,
Sorry I left out some of the details. The engine is a Mod 99 (Blue Head)
582 with 'E' box with 3:1 ratio. The plane is a Model II Kitfox that was
completed in 1996. I have the prop angle set at 10.5 to play around at
home and 11.0 degrees when I want to do cross country. The Model II has
a very STOL wing and my cruise is about 70 mph but I can push it to 95
wide open. With the prop at 10.5 I turn about 6200 at full power
take-off and up to 6800 to go to VNE. I estimate my climb rate at 750
fpm. I live in Montgomery AL where my field elevation is 200'.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:57 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/06
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-16.html
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-16.txt
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 10/16/06: 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:07 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/14/06
(Tew, Stan)
2. 08:41 AM - Kitfox Numbers (Guy Buchanan)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs -
10/14/06
From: "Tew, Stan" <Stan.Tew(at)revenue.alabama.gov>
I have been running a 69" with 3 standard shaped blades on my 582 in
Kitfox for several years. In fact, this is the 2nd engine the prop has
been mounted on. I find it works great except that the mass moment
forces a high idle speed to reduce vibration.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 1:57 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/14/06
*
================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-14.html
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-Li
st.2006-10-14.txt
==============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
==============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 10/14/06: 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:54 AM - Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan)
2. 10:47 AM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
All,
Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and
that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on
my
Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or
change
the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a
Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might
beg/borrow/buy.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
Not sure what aircraft you're using this on, but by way of comparison I
have
seen a 72" 3-blade Warp Drive used with 582 and C-box (3:1) on an Avid
Speedwind. It worked well.
The difference may have been in the backtaper on hte blades, which was
fairly extreme such that the chord length at hte tip was only about 1".
However, Warp Drive themselves set this up. So it might be worthwhile
asking
them.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Warp Drive Hub
>
> All,
> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped
and
> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade
on my
> Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or
change
> the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has
a
> Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might
> beg/borrow/buy.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Kitfox Numbers
At 08:06 AM 10/16/2006, you wrote:
>I have been running a 69" with 3 standard shaped blades on my 582 in
>Kitfox for several years.
Stan. What tip angle are you using? What are your wide-open and cruise
speeds? What is your climb rate? What model Kitfox is it?
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Fwd: Europa-List: coolant issues?] |
Hi all,
To whom it may concern. Here is a message from the Europa List.
An aircraft manufacturer jus issued an AD demanding that any Evans
water-free glycol coolant be removed from Rotax engines, due to fire hazard.
Here is a link to the AD :
http://www.stemme.de/daten/d/service/a3110076_01a_easa_ad.pdf
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Has anyone hear of issues with the new coolant being used in Rotax 914s?
This is part of a message I received from a fellow Europa pilot.
"...I just heard today that the new waterless fluid is flammable. I saw
it burn today/ Stemme has issued an urgent SB to remove the stuff - I
heard 2 fatalities of coolant leak catching fire. The 50 - 50 solution
will not burn. Oh well! Have you heard anything about this? I also
discovered that the 100% solution of antifreeze burns too..."
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax Replacement Rumours! |
| From: | "rogerabc" <rogerjohnsheridan(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
The 912S seems to be the engine of choice in most recent VLA / LSA designs including
the prototype Cessna LSA.
I assume that these manufacturers want their powerplant to be bang up to date,
like the airframe. It also seems reasonable that Rotax have a product update strategy
and timetable.....and the 912S has been around for 5 or 6 years now.
Unfortuately googling "Rotax update fuel injection etc etc" doesn't shed any light
on the issue.
Any good Rotax 912S replacement rumours would be gratefully received!
Cheers,
Roger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69086#69086
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/06 |
At 05:41 AM 10/17/2006, you wrote:
>Sorry I left out some of the details. The engine is a Mod 99 (Blue Head)
>582 with 'E' box with 3:1 ratio. The plane is a Model II Kitfox that was
>completed in 1996. I have the prop angle set at 10.5 to play around at
>home and 11.0 degrees when I want to do cross country. The Model II has
>a very STOL wing and my cruise is about 70 mph but I can push it to 95
>wide open.
Thanks Stan. You're numbers are a little more consistent with mine, as I'm
getting 80mph cruise at 5800rpm out of my 3:1 582 in a K-IV-1200. I use 12
degrees. Unfortunately others do much better. (Isn't that always true?)
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160 (63") |
Gentlemen:
I am getting all types of input concerning setting the prop pitch for my
Allegro 2000, which has a 912 UL engine and a Woodcomp, 3 blade, Klassic 160
(63) prop. I have gotten recommendations everywhere from 14 to 20. This
is quite a variation for prop pitch. I have tested the engine (Static Test)
for two pitch settings and the rpm results as indicated by the engine tach
are as follows:
17.5 Pitch = 4600 engine rpm = 65 engine hp* = 40 propeller hp*
16.5 Pitch = 4900 engine rpm = 70 engine hp* = 47.5 propeller hp*
* *see graph on page 10-3 of the Rotax Operators Manual
These numbers dont appear to reflect an efficient use of engine horsepower
to prop horsepower. Seems to me that the higher the static rpm (up to 5800
rpm) the more efficient use of the engine/propeller combination. Therefore,
one would think that setting the Prop pitch to obtain a static max rpm of
5700 rpm would be the best choice. To do this the pitch would have to be
reduced below 16.5 (in my case). It is interesting to note that the tech at
Fantasy Air USA (Distributor for the Allegro) tells me they set all of their
props at 14 pitch. I am going to reduce my pitch to 14.5 and conduct
another static test to see what rpm I get on the engine at max throttle. Any
comments or suggestions concerning this?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
912UL
N661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)can.rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160 (63") |
Hugh,
I'd recommend you set the prop to get 5000 rpm static. With that you
will find that you still have to keep an eye on the rev counter as you
climb out so as not to exceed the 5800.
IMHO that is a good setting to start. You will probably want to coursen
up a couple of degrees to get good cruise later.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JC Propellerdesign" <propellerdesign(at)tele2.se> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160 (63") |
Hi
You are supposed to climb at Vy with WOT without over revving.
Best speed is achieved if you prop it for 5800 at WOT horizontal flight,
at your normal cruising alt.
Some over-reeve for better climb.
or to 5500 at 7500=B4 WOT for max cruise.
Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh McKay III
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:43 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160
(63")
Gentlemen:
I am getting all types of input concerning setting the prop pitch for
my Allegro 2000, which has a 912 UL engine and a Woodcomp, 3 blade,
Klassic 160 (63") prop. I have gotten recommendations everywhere from
14=B0 to 20=B0. This is quite a variation for prop pitch. I have tested
the engine (Static Test) for two pitch settings and the rpm results as
indicated by the engine tach are as follows:
17.5=B0 Pitch = 4600 engine rpm = 65 engine hp* = 40 propeller
hp*
16.5=B0 Pitch = 4900 engine rpm = 70 engine hp* = 47.5 propeller
hp*
a.. *see graph on page 10-3 of the Rotax Operator's Manual
These numbers don't appear to reflect an efficient use of engine
horsepower to prop horsepower. Seems to me that the higher the static
rpm (up to 5800 rpm) the more efficient use of the engine/propeller
combination. Therefore, one would think that setting the Prop pitch to
obtain a static max rpm of 5700 rpm would be the best choice. To do this
the pitch would have to be reduced below 16.5=B0 (in my case). It is
interesting to note that the tech at Fantasy Air USA (Distributor for
the Allegro) tells me they set all of their props at 14=B0 pitch. I am
going to reduce my pitch to 14.5=B0 and conduct another static test to
see what rpm I get on the engine at max throttle. Any comments or
suggestions concerning this?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
912UL
N661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Grosvenor - DreamWings" <dave(at)dreamwings.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160 (63") |
Hugh,
My Allegro has the 80hp 912 and I've set my prop for 5000rpm static. The
prop is a KievProp 263. If you set up for 5700 static, you will definately
get great takeoff and climb performance because as you will be getting
almost max hp out of the engine. But in cruise you will have to throttle
back a long way to get reasonable cruise rpm and your cruise speed will
suffer. With the 80hp engine and my 5000rpm static setting, she still
climbs well and then gives me around 100mph at 5000rpm cruise. If you are
concerned about takeoff performance on your fist flight, set her up for 5200
static. I'm sure after a few flights you will find yourself making it a bit
courser. I would not set it for 5700 static, especially for the first
flight. There is high enough work load on a test flight without having to
worry about over revving the engine as well.
Regards
Dave
Durban, South Africa
> From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912UL/Woodcomp 3 Blade, Klassic 160
> (63")
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> I am getting all types of input concerning setting the prop pitch for my
> Allegro 2000, which has a 912 UL engine and a Woodcomp, 3 blade, Klassic
> 160
> (63) prop. I have gotten recommendations everywhere from 14 to 20. This
> is quite a variation for prop pitch. I have tested the engine (Static
> Test)
> for two pitch settings and the rpm results as indicated by the engine tach
> are as follows:
>
> 17.5 Pitch = 4600 engine rpm = 65 engine hp* = 40 propeller hp*
>
> 16.5 Pitch = 4900 engine rpm = 70 engine hp* = 47.5 propeller hp*
>
> * *see graph on page 10-3 of the Rotax Operators Manual
>
> These numbers dont appear to reflect an efficient use of engine horsepower
> to prop horsepower. Seems to me that the higher the static rpm (up to 5800
> rpm) the more efficient use of the engine/propeller combination.
> Therefore,
> one would think that setting the Prop pitch to obtain a static max rpm of
> 5700 rpm would be the best choice. To do this the pitch would have to be
> reduced below 16.5 (in my case). It is interesting to note that the tech
> at
> Fantasy Air USA (Distributor for the Allegro) tells me they set all of
> their
> props at 14 pitch. I am going to reduce my pitch to 14.5 and conduct
> another static test to see what rpm I get on the engine at max throttle.
> Any
> comments or suggestions concerning this?
>
> Hugh McKay
> Allegro 2000
> 912UL
> N661WW
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tim randle <timrandlerv10(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/25/06 |
for an RV10...
what would the max HP Rotax available be that would fit an RV10?
thanks.
Tim
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax on an RV-10?? |
Unfortunately, the "biggest" Rotax you'll get is a 914. 115 HP max
under full boost, 100 HP max otherwise. Great engine... but certainly
not enough to haul around an aircraft designed around a 6-cyl
Lycosaurus pumping out 200-260 HP.
D
-------------------
> From: tim randle <timrandlerv10(at)yahoo.com>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/25/06
>
> for an RV10...
>
> what would the max HP Rotax available be that would fit an RV10?
>
> thanks.
>
> Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax on an RV-10?? |
Maybe he was thinking about the Rotax V6 which is that power range?
Don't have any info on it but it has been shown several times. High
dollar like other state of the art engines.
Paul
============
At 10:09 AM 10/27/2006, you wrote:
>
>Unfortunately, the "biggest" Rotax you'll get is a 914. 115 HP max
>under full boost, 100 HP max otherwise. Great engine... but certainly
>not enough to haul around an aircraft designed around a 6-cyl
>Lycosaurus pumping out 200-260 HP.
>
>D
>
>-------------------
>>From: tim randle <timrandlerv10(at)yahoo.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/25/06
>>
>>for an RV10...
>>
>> what would the max HP Rotax available be that would fit an RV10?
>>
>> thanks.
>>
>> Tim
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax on an RV-10?? |
D Wysong a crit :
>
> Unfortunately, the "biggest" Rotax you'll get is a 914. 115 HP max
> under full boost, 100 HP max otherwise. Great engine... but certainly
> not enough to haul around an aircraft designed around a 6-cyl
> Lycosaurus pumping out 200-260 HP.
>
The Rotax 914 propels our MCR 4S four-seater at 130-140 kt at 75% power.
Empty weight is 838 lb.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax on an RV-10?? |
>
> Maybe he was thinking about the Rotax V6 which is that power range?
> Don't have any info on it but it has been shown several times. High
> dollar like other state of the art engines.
>
Paul
>
Did they ever really start selling those V6 engines? I remember seeing
pictures of a Piper of some sort (Arrow?) with one installed... in the
"final" stages of flight testing. I think the last date I heard was 2005.
Haven't seen one yet. ???
> The Rotax 914 propels our MCR 4S four-seater at 130-140 kt at 75% power.
> Empty weight is 838 lb.
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
>
That RV-10 is a pig compared to your MCR, Gilles. Almost twice the empty
weight. Great website, btw. We referenced it often when installing our
914. Keep it up!!
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Comcast Was Blocking Matronics Email Lists... |
Dear Listers (Specifically Comcast Listers),
For about the last two days, Comcast was blocking incoming email from the Matronics
Email Lists because their spam filters thought the mail was spam. I was
that people on Comcast are receiving List messages again.
If you are a Comcast user, you might want to email them and express your displeasure
with their Spam blocking policy, particularly as it relates to "matronics.com".
Sorry for the hassle...
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax on an RV-10?? |
Hi,
> Great website, btw. We referenced it often when installing our
> 914. Keep it up!!
>
Thank you for your message.
I'll be glad to include any info on installing or operating the 914.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 Magnetic Plug SB |
I was minding my own business trying to comply with the Rotax Alert Service
Bulletins ASB-912-051 / ASB-914-034 . Well I took the magnetic Plug out and
oil started pouring out all over everything. Naturally I have some
questions; Should I have expected oil to come out? Did I remove the wrong
plug? Is the engine routed the correct way? I have over 40 hours and things
seem to be fine, I expected to see metal shavings on the magnetic plug but
when the oil started pouring out I quickly put it back in.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Magnetic Plug SB |
David Key a crit :
>
> I was minding my own business trying to comply with the Rotax Alert
> Service Bulletins ASB-912-051 / ASB-914-034 . Well I took the magnetic
> Plug out and oil started pouring out all over everything. Naturally I
> have some questions; Should I have expected oil to come out? Did I
> remove the wrong plug? Is the engine routed the correct way?
David,
Yes some oil came out when I removed the plug,. But I had time to
examine it, and asked my buddy to cover the hole with his thumb while I
was cleaning it !
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Magnetic Plug SB |
I spoke with the guys at Lockwood about this and they said they check the plug
at every other oil change, when the oil is all drained out. This works, but it
still may drip a little.
Jack
---- wrote:
>
>
> David Key a crit :
> >
> > I was minding my own business trying to comply with the Rotax Alert
> > Service Bulletins ASB-912-051 / ASB-914-034 . Well I took the magnetic
> > Plug out and oil started pouring out all over everything. Naturally I
> > have some questions; Should I have expected oil to come out? Did I
> > remove the wrong plug? Is the engine routed the correct way?
> David,
>
> Yes some oil came out when I removed the plug,. But I had time to
> examine it, and asked my buddy to cover the hole with his thumb while I
> was cleaning it !
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847
(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 cell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Magnetic Plug SB |
Thanks guys, I was under the impression that I would be looking at something
that was collecting shavings in a dry part of the gear box. I'm changing my
oil this week and I'll do it once most of the oil is drained out.
>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>Reply-To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 Magnetic Plug SB
>Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:37:01 -0700 (MST)
>
>
>
>I spoke with the guys at Lockwood about this and they said they check the
>plug at every other oil change, when the oil is all drained out. This
>works, but it still may drip a little.
>
>Jack
>---- wrote:
> >
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> >
> > David Key a crit :
> > >
> > > I was minding my own business trying to comply with the Rotax Alert
> > > Service Bulletins ASB-912-051 / ASB-914-034 . Well I took the magnetic
> > > Plug out and oil started pouring out all over everything. Naturally I
> > > have some questions; Should I have expected oil to come out? Did I
> > > remove the wrong plug? Is the engine routed the correct way?
> > David,
> >
> > Yes some oil came out when I removed the plug,. But I had time to
> > examine it, and asked my buddy to cover the hole with his thumb while I
> > was cleaning it !
> >
> > Regards,
> > Gilles Thesee
> > Grenoble, France
> > http://contrails.free.fr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Jack Kuehn
>5565 Brady Lane
>Lolo, MT 59847
>
>(406) 273-6801
>(406) 546-1086 cell
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Oil pressure issues |
Hi Folks--
I'm looking for some ideas as to why I'm seeing intermittent hi oil
pressure on my 912uls. Itis installed on a Zodiac 601XL and currently in
initial flight testing with about 5 hours on it. Everything was fine for
the first 3.5 hours. Current symptoms are that on start up and take off
everything is in the green at about 55-66psi. Once I reach altitude and
try to reduce throttle the oil pressure goes intermittently to the red at
78-98psi. If I throttle back up the pressure goes back to the green.
Returning to the field and after landing the pressure is again in the red.
Thanks for any ideas
George
_________________________________________________________________
Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Jeffers" <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | 912 rockers and rocker shaft replacement |
Hi all,
A long time ago Rotax issued SB-912-15 which referred to a need to replace
rocker shafts and rockers at 600hrs, on some old engines. It allowed you to
inspect at 200 & 400hr but to replace at 600 hrs.
I had thought that some time later an amended instruction had been issued
that allowed the 200hrs checks to be continued ad infinitum requiring
replacement only if there was a problem.
Can anyone cast any light on the whereabouts of this later instruction (if
it exists)
Pete Jeffers
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BOB MCMILLIN" <rmcmill(at)zoominternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil pressure issues |
hi George
what kind of oil filter are you using? and have you checked your oil
pressure with a different kind of gage(mechanical type) verses electric
sender type?. some times bypass in non rotax filter drags a little and
causes this.
----- Original Message -----
From: "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
>
>
>
> Hi Folks--
> I'm looking for some ideas as to why I'm seeing intermittent hi oil
> pressure on my 912uls. Itis installed on a Zodiac 601XL and currently in
> initial flight testing with about 5 hours on it. Everything was fine for
> the first 3.5 hours. Current symptoms are that on start up and take off
> everything is in the green at about 55-66psi. Once I reach altitude and
> try to reduce throttle the oil pressure goes intermittently to the red at
> 78-98psi. If I throttle back up the pressure goes back to the green.
> Returning to the field and after landing the pressure is again in the red.
> Thanks for any ideas
>
> George
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
> https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil pressure issues |
Filter is rotax. Haven't tried another type of gauge yet
>From: "BOB MCMILLIN" <rmcmill(at)zoominternet.net>
>Reply-To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 20:05:14 -0500
>
>
>
>hi George
>what kind of oil filter are you using? and have you checked your oil
>pressure with a different kind of gage(mechanical type) verses electric
>sender type?. some times bypass in non rotax filter drags a little and
>causes this.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:31 AM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Folks--
>> I'm looking for some ideas as to why I'm seeing intermittent hi oil
>>pressure on my 912uls. Itis installed on a Zodiac 601XL and currently in
>>initial flight testing with about 5 hours on it. Everything was fine for
>>the first 3.5 hours. Current symptoms are that on start up and take off
>>everything is in the green at about 55-66psi. Once I reach altitude and
>>try to reduce throttle the oil pressure goes intermittently to the red at
>>78-98psi. If I throttle back up the pressure goes back to the green.
>>Returning to the field and after landing the pressure is again in the red.
>> Thanks for any ideas
>>
>>George
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
>>https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free
trip!
http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Email List Fund Raiser - November! |
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation
and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's through these sole Contributions
of List members that these Matronics Lists are possible.
You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site ( http://forums.matronics.com ), Wiki site ( http://wiki.matronics.com ), or other related pages such as the List Search Engine ( http://www.matornics.com/search ), List Browse ( http://www.matornics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisments.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every few days
reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. Each message will generally
highlight a particular feature or benefit of the Matronics Lists or detail
a new feature or service that was added this year. I ask for your patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the
bills associated with running these lists.
Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along with
the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been provided
by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on Matronics Lists and
have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates.
This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises aka Kitlog Pro (http://www.kitlog.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/).
These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective
web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful aviation-related product
line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Paul, Andy, and Jon for their generous
support of the Lists again this year!!
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this
year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three methods
afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with
a qualifying Contribution amount!!
To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below:
https://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral
support over the years. I know it sounds a little cliche, but you guys really
do feel like family.
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Simon Smith" <jodel(at)nildram.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Oil pressure issues |
Hi,
I'm not sure what type of gauge you are using but if you have the VDO type
that is supplied with the 91x series in Europe then note that when there is
power to the gauge but no connection to the sender the gauge shows full
scale (the temp gauges show zero in this case).
Check that you do not have a poor connection to the sender or a faulty
sender.
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george
may
Sent: 02 November 2006 02:09
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
Filter is rotax. Haven't tried another type of gauge yet
>From: "BOB MCMILLIN" <rmcmill(at)zoominternet.net>
>Reply-To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 20:05:14 -0500
>
>
>
>hi George
>what kind of oil filter are you using? and have you checked your oil
>pressure with a different kind of gage(mechanical type) verses electric
>sender type?. some times bypass in non rotax filter drags a little and
>causes this.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "george may" <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:31 AM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Oil pressure issues
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Folks--
>> I'm looking for some ideas as to why I'm seeing intermittent hi oil
>>pressure on my 912uls. Itis installed on a Zodiac 601XL and currently in
>>initial flight testing with about 5 hours on it. Everything was fine for
>>the first 3.5 hours. Current symptoms are that on start up and take off
>>everything is in the green at about 55-66psi. Once I reach altitude and
>>try to reduce throttle the oil pressure goes intermittently to the red at
>>78-98psi. If I throttle back up the pressure goes back to the green.
>>Returning to the field and after landing the pressure is again in the red.
>> Thanks for any ideas
>>
>>George
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
>>https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free
trip!
http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us
&hmtagline
_-
_-
_-
_-
_-
_-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Have You Tried The New Matronics List Forum? |
Hello Listers,
One of the major new additions to the Matronics Email Lists this year was the addition
of a new and full function Forum Web Site at:
http://forums.matronics.com
The best part of these new Forums is that they are tied directly to the Classic
email distribution Lists! That also means that posts go in both directions.
If you post a message on the Forum web site, it will be cross posted to the respective
Email List. And, if you post a message to a particular Email List,
it will be cross posted to the same respective forum on the Forum site!
So, no matter what your content viewing pleasure is - either direct email distribution
or web-based GUI interface, you can have it at the Matronics Email Lists!
Won't you make a Contribution to support these Lists? It is your SOLE Contributions
that make their continued operation and upgrade possible!
The Contribution site is Fast, Easy, and Secure. Please surf over and make your
Contribution today:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
_-
_-
_-
_-
August 21, 2006 - November 03, 2006
RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-ab