RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-an
December 17, 2009 - January 21, 2010
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Octane booster |
I think and I may be wrong, that if you never leave fuel sitting in your
plane then you will have little to worry about in the dissolving the tanks
department. However defueling after every flight could be a pain!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
Sent: December 11, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane booster
Float Flyr wrote:
> Some of the guys who have to run the E-10 have been finding the Ethanol
> dissolves their fuel tanks. When you get the yellow goo in your carb you
> may find the 912 doesn't like it!
>
> Noel
>
>
> --
Another thing that happens is any varnish or other deposits left behind by
gas are dissolved and cleaned out by the ethanol. So if your system isn't
already clean, the dissolved debris can make it up to the filter, or into
the carbys and the engine.... stopping or slowing the prop....
So you have to make sure the whole system is clean before switching over to
E10 and eagle-eye the fuel filter on pre/post flight for a while after you
switch.
I use a large clear paper fuel filter (no, I won't participate in the fuel
filter thread again ;)), rather than the recommended small ones with the
rock-like or screen elements. This way, the extra size and filter area gives
me a fighting chance to catch any clogging on pre and post flight before it
actually plugs up and kills the engine. The little filters clog in a NYC
second, but the big ones take a while and hopefully you arrive at your
destination before it plugs completely up.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277163#277163
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Thomson <peterlthomson(at)gmail.com> |
I am a dedicated E10 user in my a/c, but just had a nasty experience in my
auto,
My auto is fitted for LPG and uses gasoline only for a few seconds at start.
This has resulted in the same E10 in the gasoline tank for a long time
(probably 2 years), The result - heavy rusting, failed pumps (one in the
tank and one in the fuel line), clogged filters.
So this is a clear example of one of the downsides to this E10, You need to
keep turning it over, keep tanks full, etc. to stop any effect of the
absorption of water from the air.
My a/c has aluminum tanks, two in-line filters which I watch and change, and
I check the carb bowls every 50 hours. Also never any vapor lock, up to
9500ft (I haven;t cruised higher)
Peter
CH701SP
912ULS 470hrs 1500TBO
Trio EZ Pilot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim White" <aa5flyer(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Octane booster |
Hi,
I'm new to this list, but know of two guys (snowbirds) on our airpark in
Florida that drain their tanks and run a limited amount of 100LL through
their 912s for summer storage (5-6 months). They claim 100LL will not
deteriorate the fuel system as with the autofuel they normally use. Seems
to work.
Tim White
Rans S-6 (in work), Rotax 912
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:31 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane booster
>
>
> I think and I may be wrong, that if you never leave fuel sitting in your
> plane then you will have little to worry about in the dissolving the tanks
> department. However defueling after every flight could be a pain!
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
> Sent: December 11, 2009 12:00 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane booster
>
>
>
>
> Float Flyr wrote:
>> Some of the guys who have to run the E-10 have been finding the Ethanol
>> dissolves their fuel tanks. When you get the yellow goo in your carb you
>> may find the 912 doesn't like it!
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>> --
>
>
> Another thing that happens is any varnish or other deposits left behind by
> gas are dissolved and cleaned out by the ethanol. So if your system isn't
> already clean, the dissolved debris can make it up to the filter, or into
> the carbys and the engine.... stopping or slowing the prop....
>
> So you have to make sure the whole system is clean before switching over
> to
> E10 and eagle-eye the fuel filter on pre/post flight for a while after you
> switch.
>
> I use a large clear paper fuel filter (no, I won't participate in the fuel
> filter thread again ;)), rather than the recommended small ones with the
> rock-like or screen elements. This way, the extra size and filter area
> gives
> me a fighting chance to catch any clogging on pre and post flight before
> it
> actually plugs up and kills the engine. The little filters clog in a NYC
> second, but the big ones take a while and hopefully you arrive at your
> destination before it plugs completely up.....
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277163#277163
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Rotax Line maint. Manual |
Thanks for all the tips on printing this manual. I will do something soon.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Octane booster |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Float Flyr wrote:
> I think and I may be wrong, that if you never leave fuel sitting in your
> plane then you will have little to worry about in the dissolving the tanks
> department. However defueling after every flight could be a pain!
>
> Noel
>
> --
JMO, but my tactic is to simply consider leaving E10 sitting the plane to be not
good period. What I do during the down periods (spring, summer) is drain the
tank after about a week and half or so. If it's going to be sitting longer than
that I'll drain completely and refill with 100LL. I'll run the motor a bit
to get the E10 out of the float bowls and lines also.
I've found 100LL keeps a lot better when sitting that autogas. And I wouldn't like
E10 to sit for any period of time at all due to moisture retention, etc.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277895#277895
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New line maint manual |
Went to Office Depot and gave them the URL for the new manual and they were
able to print it , bind it with wire coil and covers for $17. That was good
for me as the thing is almost 1/2 inch thick printed both sides.
I read it last night and it is a much better manual than the old one even
though the English is much the same as the English found in the instructions
for a Harbor Freight tool ! But then I can't speak German so what the heck.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Dick,
I just had a wonderful evening reading the new Rotax Line maint manual form cover
to cover. I need a life... LOL
There are some changes, some good some I think not so good.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278204#278204
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
| From: | Don Hudgeon <don(at)hudgeon.com> |
Good evening Roger
I am a fairly new poster and I have recently purchased a VERY nice Kitfox
Vixen in CA and have imported it to Canada. I am in the process of changing
the registration and Airworthiness Certificate to meet Transport Canada
regulations. One requirement is carb heat. I have installed the SkyDrive
(from the UK) hot water manifolds that sit between the carbs and the
intakes. They plumb into the cooling sysyem and basically just maintain
enough heat at the carb throat body to prevent the formation of ice. They
can be left on at all times without reducing engine performance. QUESTIONS
1. Are you familiar with these units? If so any comments?
2. These take up about 3/4 inch and therefore move the carbs back that much.
I have installed the revised carb support spring ( the top mounted version)
but of course it is too short, so I have bent a stainless wire bracket
between the spring and the balance tube elbows. Also the side springs were
replaced with "after market" ones from our auto supply outlet.
3. Do you see any problems with this arrangement? Should I attach a safety
wire at each spring, just to be sure? Is having the carbs coming off a
"common problem" with the 912UL? I will be flying mainly over fairly
unhospital terrain and definitally require RELIABILITY.
4. My engine is serial # 4153404 (1996 version). 130 hours total time.
Anything unusual I should be on the lookout for? I have gone through the
Rotax-Owners website for updates.
Feel free to comment and recommend. I am all ears.
Cheers
Don Hudgeon
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Dick,
> I just had a wonderful evening reading the new Rotax Line maint manual
> form cover to cover. I need a life... LOL
> There are some changes, some good some I think not so good.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278204#278204
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
>There are some changes, some good some I think not so good.<
I agree Roger,
I will go thru the manual again and copy the check pages and some of the
other stuff. I find it useful to collect data from various sources on this
engine. I must have a library about a foot thick just on this engine. It's a
far cry from the info I collected on the Lycs or Continental engines where it
was generally available in one complete book and easy to find. As an
example find the torque for the exhaust nut that attaches to the stud at the
exhaust flange on the cylinder head. Now I know with your experience you will
probably know where to find it. I looked thru all the manuals and finally ended
up calling Dean at Lockwood and he looked it up on his computer. This is
just an example. I had to remove an exhaust pipe on a Paradise LSA in order to
remove the oil filter for an oil change. (there was no other way) I wish
there was a COMPLETE torque table in one location. I know if all else fails
you can go by the fastener size(or the "elbow" torque wrench) but certain
applications differ and I want to do things correctly. That is why I will pay
big bucks for the 17 mm coolant hoses for my engine that I have been unable to
find except at the Rotax distributor.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Dick, The complete torque table you seek is in the Illustrated Parts
Catalog, chapter 34.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 8:52 AM, wrote:
> >There are some changes, some good some I think not so good.<
>
> I agree Roger,
> I will go thru the manual again and copy the check pages and some of the
> other stuff. I find it useful to collect data from various sources on this
> engine. I must have a library about a foot thick just on this engine. It's a
> far cry from the info I collected on the Lycs or Continental engines where
> it was generally available in one complete book and easy to find. As an
> example find the torque for the exhaust nut that attaches to the stud at
> the exhaust flange on the cylinder head. Now I know with your experience you
> will probably know where to find it. I looked thru all the manuals and
> finally ended up calling Dean at Lockwood and he looked it up on his
> computer. This is just an example. I had to remove an exhaust pipe on a
> Paradise LSA in order to remove the oil filter for an oil change. (there was
> no other way) I wish there was a COMPLETE torque table in one location. I
> know if all else fails you can go by the fastener size(or the "elbow" torque
> wrench) but certain applications differ and I want to do things correctly.
> That is why I will pay big bucks for the 17 mm coolant hoses for my engine
> that I have been unable to find except at the Rotax distributor.
> Dick Maddux
> 912UL
> Milton,Fl
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Damien" <dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
----- Original Message -----
From: catz631(at)aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: New line maint manual
>There are some changes, some good some I think not so good.<
I agree Roger,
I will go thru the manual again and copy the check pages and some of
the other stuff. I find it useful to collect data from various sources
on this engine. I must have a library about a foot thick just on this
engine. It's a far cry from the info I collected on the Lycs or
Continental engines where it was generally available in one complete
book and easy to find. As an example find the torque for the exhaust nut
that attaches to the stud at the exhaust flange on the cylinder head.
Now I know with your experience you will probably know where to find it.
I looked thru all the manuals and finally ended up calling Dean at
Lockwood and he looked it up on his computer. This is just an example. I
had to remove an exhaust pipe on a Paradise LSA in order to remove the
oil filter for an oil change. (there was no other way) I wish there was
a COMPLETE torque table in one location. I know if all else fails you
can go by the fastener size(or the "elbow" torque wrench) but certain
applications differ and I want to do things correctly. That is why I
will pay big bucks for the 17 mm coolant hoses for my engine that I have
been unable to find except at the Rotax distributor.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Dick and all,
This sounds just like a Rotax test question. The answer Dick is in the Parts manual
pg. 24-6 item 38 of the May 2009 edition. Or page 166 from the very front
page.
Several torques are located in the Parts Manual for specialized areas. An exhaust
stud/nut won't get the same torque as another nut and bolt the same size because
of it's special duty area i.e. the very hot and
expanding & cooling exhaust flange area.
Common everyday maint torques are usually in the Line Maint manual, when it gets
a little more toward the Heavy maint items then it is there and special torques
are in the Parts Catalog.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278273#278273
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net> |
| Subject: | Error in new 912 line maintenance manual? |
Hi Dick,
I have been unable to contact anyone at Rotax to confirm this but I
believe the new manual has at least one important typo or translation
error. On page 32 of the last chapter, there is the basic throttle
setting procedure. At step 5 it says :-
"Pull out feeler gauge and then turn each idle speed adjustment screw 1.5 turns
_counter clockwise_."
This does not make much sense and is contrary to the instructions in the Rotax
video and the earlier yellow manual which clearly say "turn each idle speed adjustment
screw 1.5 turns _clockwise_." Perhaps someone else knows how to get
this corrected by Rotax.
Cheers, John
912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: New line maint manual
Went to Office Depot and gave them the URL for the new manual and they were
able to print it , bind it with wire coil and covers for $17. That was good
for me as the thing is almost 1/2 inch thick printed both sides.
I read it last night and it is a much better manual than the old one even
though the English is much the same as the English found in the instructions
for a Harbor Freight tool ! But then I can't speak German so what the heck.
Dick Maddux 912 UL Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <daberti(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Error in new 912 line maintenance manual? |
Is the feeler gage the same size?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
&
Paddy Wigney
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 2:07 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Error in new 912 line maintenance manual?
Hi Dick,
I have been unable to contact anyone at Rotax to confirm this but I
believe
the new manual has at least one important typo or translation error. On
page
32 of the last chapter, there is the basic throttle setting procedure.
At
step 5 it says :-
"Pull out feeler gauge and then turn each idle speed adjustment screw
1.5
turns counter clockwise."
This does not make much sense and is contrary to the instructions in the
Rotax video and the earlier yellow manual which clearly say "turn each
idle
speed adjustment screw 1.5 turns clockwise." Perhaps someone else knows
how
to get this corrected by Rotax.
Cheers, John
912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: New line maint manual
Went to Office Depot and gave them the URL for the new manual and they
were
able to print it , bind it with wire coil and covers for $17. That was
good
for me as the thing is almost 1/2 inch thick printed both sides.
I read it last night and it is a much better manual than the old one
even
though the English is much the same as the English found in the
instructions
for a Harbor Freight tool ! But then I can't speak German so what the
heck.
Dick Maddux 912 UL Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Rotax Maint Manual Changes |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
Just thought I would do a little reflecting on just a couple of the new Rotax "Line
Maint Manual" changes.
I don't think they are all good for us, but that's my personal opinion and may
not reflect your perspective..
1. Compression test is every 200 hrs. which is the same as the old manual, but
the change is you can use a test pressure of 80-87 psi.
87 psi was the old standard test pressure. 80 psi test pressure was for A&P's that
didn't know better, now they will at least look like they knew. I always do
a compression test at every 100 hrs. or annual for my clients. It only takes
a few minutes and might point to a problem much earlier.
2. The gearbox check was moved from 800 hrs to 1000 hrs. for those that use 91
oct. unleaded. For those that use 100LL more than 30% of the time then a gearbox
check is due at 600 hours. That usually means those that are using a lot of
100LL will need to have the overload clutch sent in a cleaned of all the lead
deposits. Only a couple of places in the US does this. You can't do it yourself
very well because you need a jig, a special tool and a lot of force. CPS does
this cleaning.
3, To me this next one isn't such a good idea. They did this many years ago and
had some issues then.
Only check, clean and gap the plugs at 100 hrs. and replace at 200 hrs. If you
have seen many plugs with those time intervals and flown some of those engine
with 100 plus hours with 100LL then this is still a bad idea today.
The plug gap recommendation has changed a little. It is still within the older
specs, but is slightly different from the old manual. New gap recommendation is
.023-.027. Most everyone I knew used to gap at .028 for warmer weather from
April -Nov. They used to say you could gap as low as .019 for really cold weather.
Doesn't say anything about the lower gaps in the new manual. Good question
when I go back in Feb. for my Rotax update class.
4. Here is one I really lift an eyebrow about.
Looks like they went to 50 hrs. on the oil and oil filter change for 100LL and
100 hrs. if you use 91 octane unleaded.
If they were so adamant before about sooner oil and oil filter changes being detrimental
to the engine all these years, what happened to change that? If the
100LL made such a mess and it did if you ever saw and engine apart why has that
changed?
The oil is the blood of your engine and you just got a TBO extension, why play
with the success that got that extension in the first place. Personally 50 hr.
oil changes still work for me, but it's up to each owner. I would highly recommend,
plus your supposed to do oil analysis to be compliant with the new TBO
and it should be done anyway. Cost is a whopping total of $19.95. The kit can
be ordered from Lockwood and postage is all prepaid. You get the results online.
Once every 100 hrs. should be good.
5. This is just a reminder on this item. Your gearbox friction test results should
be between 264-531 in/lbs. The higher the better especially for cold weather
starting. If you are in the mid to upper 400's then great. If you are in the
low 300's you may need a shim or spring washer change sooner than later.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278312#278312
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2009 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Rotax Maint Manual Changes |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just thought I would do a little reflecting on just a couple of the new Rotax
"Line Maint Manual" changes.
> I don't think they are all good for us, but that's my personal opinion and may
not reflect your perspective.. Please no one get worked up over this as these
are just some items I happen to see when reading through.
>
> 1. Compression test is every 200 hrs. which is the same as the old manual, but
the change is you can use a test pressure of 80-87 psi.
> 87 psi was the old standard test pressure. 80 psi test pressure was for A&P's
that didn't know better, now they will at least look like they knew. I always
do a compression test at every 100 hrs. or annual for my clients. It only takes
a few minutes and might point to a problem much earlier.
>
> 2. The gearbox check was moved from 800 hrs to 1000 hrs. for those that use 91
oct. unleaded. For those that use 100LL more than 30% of the time then a gearbox
check is due at 600 hours. That usually means those that are using a lot
of 100LL will need to have the overload clutch sent in a cleaned of all the lead
deposits. Only a couple of places in the US does this. You can't do it yourself
very well because you need a jig, a special tool and a lot of force. CPS
does this cleaning.
>
> 3, To me this next one isn't such a good idea. They did this many years ago and
had some issues then.
> Only check, clean and gap the plugs at 100 hrs. and replace at 200 hrs. If you
have seen many plugs with those time intervals and flown some of those engine
with 100 plus hours with 100LL then this is still a bad idea today.
> The plug gap recommendation has changed a little. It is still within the older
specs, but is slightly different from the old manual. New gap recommendation
is .023-.027. Most everyone I knew used to gap at .028 for warmer weather from
April -Nov. They used to say you could gap as low as .019 for really cold weather.
Doesn't say anything about the lower gaps in the new manual. Good question
when I go back in Feb. for my Rotax update class.
>
> 4. Here is one I really lift an eyebrow about.
> Looks like they went to 50 hrs. on the oil and oil filter change for 100LL and
100 hrs. if you use 91 octane unleaded.
> If they were so adamant before about sooner oil and oil filter changes being
detrimental to the engine all these years, what happened to change that? If the
100LL made such a mess and it did if you ever saw and engine apart why has that
changed?
> The oil is the blood of your engine and you just got a TBO extension, why play
with the success that got that extension in the first place. Personally 50 hr.
oil changes still work for me, but it's up to each owner. I would highly recommend,
plus your supposed to do oil analysis to be compliant with the new TBO
and it should be done anyway. Cost is a whopping total of $19.95. The kit can
be ordered from Lockwood and postage is all prepaid. You get the results online.
Once every 100 hrs. should be good.
>
> 5. This is just a reminder on this item. Your gearbox friction test results should
be between 264-531 in/lbs. The higher the better especially for cold weather
starting. If you are in the mid to upper 400's then great. If you are in
the low 300's you may need a shim or spring washer change sooner than later.
A couple thoughts:
The grade of oils we have available now are probably significantly better than
when the initial interval was proposed. Our auto oils are up to API grade SM now
(and maybe past that by now, havn't looked lately) and the Aeroshell is SJ
or SL can't remember offhand. Those grades are significantly better than what
was probably available at the time.
So I'd say, if the motor is being run a lot an interval like 25 hours is probably
excessive, even when running 100LL. Perhaps this is just a field experience
thing? The last time I ran a significant amount of 100LL over an oil change interval
(last year sometime) I changed at 25 hours; oil was really black indicating
to me it was doing a good job scavenging the lead and was still very "oily"
and not watery. That was with an API SM auto oil (vavoline IIRC) before switching
to the Aeroshell which I'm using now.
One thing I kind of wish they'd do is recommend a time limit along with with hours
(or if they do I wasn't able to find it?). Just seems uncomfortable to me
that you could conceivably change the oil only at annual if you're flying 100
hours a year..... I personally start to get uneasy once the oil gets to around
6 months old and I go ahead and change by then regardless of hours. But that
might be covered too under the later API specs as well. Havn't looked at the newer
ones on the API site.
Same thing on the spark plugs. On mine when I was running 100LL, they looked a
lot worse than they actually were when I pulled them at annual. I think they had
around 100 hours on them with more than 30% 100LL and I was still getting a
perfect mag drop on both sides. I still change mine at annual tho since it's
cheap and they have to come out for compression check anyway.
I'm also glad about the longer gearbox inteval. Don't know about anyone else, but
I'd rather wait as long as possible before taking my motor apart ;). But seriously,
they should emphasize the MOI limit here, IMO. It's amazing the gigantic
tonnage props that are put on these things out in the field and I'm sure they're
hammering the boxes really good. That's why I love my powerfin, the entire
engine is so much happier ;)
Just my thoughts about it,
LS[/i]
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278418#278418
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New line maint manual |
>The complete torque table you seek is in the Illustrated Parts
Catalog, chapter 34<
Ah Haaa ! The one book I don't have. I have an old parts manual dating
from the mid 90's and it doesn't show squat.
Thanks guys !
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Rotax Maint Manual Changes |
Roger ,
Thanks for taking the time to summarize the major changes !! That's a
great help !
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
I hope all is well with Christmas Day coming. Here is an article that may save
you lots of money and heartache. It is a reflection on logbook entries and your
aircraft documentation. If it helps one person it will be worth the heat over
the article.
Merry Christmas and be Safe for the Holidays,
Roger
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278648#278648
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/your_mechanic_may_have_just_cost_you_172.doc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
And then there are the mechanics that do all the paperwork but don't
actually do the inspection.
Your statement that all things done must be listed in the logbook entry
could get you into trouble. Should I make a list of all the things you did
NOT list in your logbook entries? There are dozens of things that you did
not list in your example logbook entries that are required to be done.
In the logbook entry a mechanic/inspector is required to state what type of
inspection was performed with the date and tach/hobbs time, ADs and SBs done
and REFERENCE the documents controlling the inspection. S/he is also
required to list all discrepancies found, plus remedies taken with reference
to methods. A mechanic cannot realistically list everything he did during
the inspection in the logbook entry. That is what references are for.
As you stated, there are good mechanics, bad mechanics and so-so mechanics.
Grading them purely on what the logbook says is a risky endeavor. My
personal approach is to provide a thorough work report to the customer with
all the details that he needs to know about his aircraft. Sometimes this
report is less than a full page; sometimes it is many pages. AND I do this
before actually doing any corrective work to get the customer's OK before
doing so.
Thom Riddle
Powerplant Mechanic since 1972
http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Good Morning Thom,
Merry Christmas
Glad you see it that way, you have helped me drive my point home. Showing that
all mechanics can usually do a better job. That many of the logbooks lack the
documentation, check list and discrepancy list. Using the supplied check list
will help bridge those gaps where some things fall a little short. Some homework
is required on each plane inspected.
The whole point of the article was not just strictly logbooks, but what they will
cost you later whether dealing with an authority or a prospective buyer. It
is to start getting everyone to try and do better with their paperwork. Do all
the paperwork and using check list will help you stay focused and on the right
paper trail.
The two poor logbook entries came from a plane that also had a wing tip replaced.
No mention in the logs about it, but that info was found and now it looks like
the owner was concealing it. That makes one ask what else might someone try
and hide.
The article was to help get people to protect themselves and get top dollar when
they sell their plane or to have a better idea of what they are buying.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278677#278677
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Merry xmas guys,
A little bit of an aside on this, but regarding annual condition inspections....
is it just me, or is a condition inspection an _inspection_ and not a whole bunch
of maintenance and repair work?
I've often wondered about this because the main nightmare story I hear about annuals
is when the plane ends up staying in the AnP's shop for days and sometimes
weeks with all the repairs and maintenance that has to be done.
Even with standard category planes you hear this all the time, the annuals run
1000's of bucks plus parts and labor.
Sure, you expect a second set of eyes to find things that you might have missed
and you want them to. But seems to me annuals are often treated like huge one-shot
repair/maintenance sessions that cost up the wazoo and take days and days.
My take on it is, I'm a strong believer in the "rolling annual" - a constant series
of inspections and repairs as they come up with logbook entries for everything
I find and what I do to fix it.
For example here's a listing out of my logbook from April until now:
- replace prop to fix harmonic vibration problem
- compression check (suspected intake leak)
- oil/filter change
- change pickup line inside tank, old one starting to rot
- change main tires, check prop bolts
- fix inspection covers, reseat jam nuts on ail. pushrods, check for tightness
- new fuel lines/filter, add heat sheilds
- entry about stabiliator attach bolt movement, shim up elevator pushrod clevis
- replace prop bolts with correct hardware (oops!)
- repair positive lead on starter (came off), fix rubbing against an oil hose
- check stabilator end play - within spec
- check for vert. stab. skin cracks (as per Titan advisory)
- check wing attach bolts, tighten so spec, check prop bolts, check all engine
hose clamps
- replace ELT batteries, note new expiration
Er, you get the idea..... and my annual CI is due end of Feb and I haven't even
started going through the checklist of things to be done for that. That's a bunch
of stuff, cleaning, lubing, spark plugs, checks etc.....
Can you imagine what an annual with all this stuff left to be done at that annual
would be like? I don't think I'd ever get the plane back even tho this is all
routine stuff (and doesn't even include the CI checklist required in my op
limits).
Yet I've seen logbooks on even standard category planes where the only entries
are the annuals and nothing else. Talk about hell...
For me, I want the annual to be the AnP looking it over, doing what he needs to
do and not rebuilding my plane and overhauling my engine. My last annual was
about 3 hours and $300. Hopefully the upcoming one will be about the same.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278699#278699
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Lucien,
You are exactly right. You should be looking over your plane in between inspections
and correcting issues as they come up. Jot them down in the logbook and sign
it if you are allowed or get a mechanic to take care of it then and there.
The inspection then is easier and less expensive. If an owner doesn't do this
then it usually ends up falling on the mechanic. If it is an item that isn't
an airworthy issue, but should be looked at soon, the mechanic might just note
it in his inspection, but if it is an airworthy or compliance issue he either
has to fix it or can't sign it off until it is fixed. So I think it is great
when people look over their plane and I don't have a lot to do, but look it over
or fix a few minor items before signing, but I get planes in all the time with
list like yours. When the mechanic signs his name he is stating that everything
is done, safe and airworthy according to the Mfg and FAA. Sometimes on more
expensive inspections the owners are their worst enemy because they haven't
taken the time to really get down a look in detail at their plane. That said
owners don't always have the trained eye or experience to see things. I am very
leery of cheap inspections. Cheap $$$$ inspections tend to be cheap inspections.
No there is no guarantee, but getting references on your mechanic or checking
his reputation is the best thing or just stand there and watch him.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278704#278704
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Hi Lucien,
>
> You are exactly right. You should be looking over your plane in between inspections
and correcting issues as they come up. Jot them down in the logbook and
sign it if you are allowed or get a mechanic to take care of it then and there.
The inspection then is easier and less expensive. If an owner doesn't do this
then it usually ends up falling on the mechanic. If it is an item that isn't
an airworthy issue, but should be looked at soon, the mechanic might just note
it in his inspection, but if it is an airworthy or compliance issue he either
has to fix it or can't sign it off until it is fixed. So I think it is great
when people look over their plane and I don't have a lot to do, but look it
over or fix a few minor items before signing, but I get planes in all the time
with list like yours. When the mechanic signs his name he is stating that everything
is done, safe and airworthy according to the Mfg and FAA. Sometimes on
more expensive inspections the owners are their worst enemy because they haven't
taken the time to really get down a look in detail at their plane. That said
owners don't always have the trained eye or experience to see things. I am
very leery of cheap inspections. Cheap $$$$ inspections tend to be cheap inspections.
No there is no guarantee, but getting references on your mechanic or checking
his reputation is the best thing or just stand there and watch him.
Well in my case, because my plane is EAB, I have to get the CI signed off by a
traditional A&P. That can mean someone who doesn't know a rotax from a hole in
the ground and may or may not be familiar with airframe issues of my particular
plane.
Last year, a few things were caught and couple bad things were missed. The scariest
was the throttle cable starting to get cut in half by the swivel attachment
at the rear throttle quadrant (could have been very dangerous), and the spark
plugs incorrectly torqued (could have been every expensive). Fortunately the
plugs were undertightened and not overtightened but my hair still stood up on
end a little bit after going over the plugs myself with my torque wrench later
at the hangar.
So I like to be an informed owner as mistakes can always be made and things can
be missed. Or you can be in unsafe situations like mine where the holes in the
rules mean the designated repairmen really don't know very well what they're
looking at. So in my case, it's doubly important that I be able to keep after
my plane and engine myself to take up any slack that can occurs.
I already have a bit of a list of things to go through before my annual, gearbox
friction check, another oil change, getting new plugs and the heat conduction
goop, cleaning/oiling air filters, reline brake pads.... and some other things
I feel like I've already forgotten... seems like the more work I do on the
plane the more things that need to be done to it....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278707#278707
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh MCKAY III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
Lucien:=0A=0AYour email spoke to really what should be happening all along
during a year of flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can ha
ndle the actual "100 hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane
and, sign off the Inspection if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certif
icate. If you don't have one you can get one by attending-a FAA 16 hour t
raining course.=0A=0AHugh McKay=0ARotax912UL=0AAllegro 2000=0AN661WW=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: lucien <lstavenhagen@hotm
ail.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, December 23, 20
09 11:52:33 AM=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Your Mechanic May have Jus
agen(at)hotmail.com>=0A=0AMerry xmas guys,=0A=0AA little bit of an aside on th
is, but regarding annual condition inspections....=0A=0Ais it just me, or i
s a condition inspection an _inspection_ and not a whole bunch of maintenan
ce and repair work?=0A=0AI've often wondered about this because the main ni
ghtmare story I hear about annuals is when the plane ends up staying in the
AnP's shop for days and sometimes weeks with all the repairs and maintenan
ce that has to be done. =0AEven with standard category planes you hear this
all the time, the annuals run 1000's of bucks plus parts and labor.=0A=0AS
ure, you expect a second set of eyes to find things that you might have mis
sed and you want them to. But seems to me annuals are often treated like hu
ge one-shot repair/maintenance sessions that cost up the wazoo and take day
s and days.=0A=0AMy take on it is, I'm a strong believer in the "rolling an
nual" - a constant series of inspections and repairs as they come up with l
ogbook entries for everything I find and what I do to fix it. =0AFor exampl
e here's a listing out of my logbook from April until now:=0A- replace prop
to fix harmonic vibration problem=0A- compression check (suspected intake
leak)=0A- oil/filter change=0A- change pickup line inside tank, old one sta
rting to rot=0A- change main tires, check prop bolts=0A- fix inspection cov
ers, reseat jam nuts on ail. pushrods, check for tightness=0A- new fuel lin
es/filter, add heat sheilds=0A- entry about stabiliator attach bolt movemen
t, shim up elevator pushrod clevis=0A- replace prop bolts with correct hard
ware (oops!)=0A- repair positive lead on starter (came off), fix rubbing ag
ainst an oil hose=0A- check stabilator end play - within spec=0A- check for
vert. stab. skin cracks (as per Titan advisory)=0A- check wing attach bolt
s, tighten so spec, check prop bolts, check all engine hose clamps=0A- repl
ace ELT batteries, note new expiration=0A=0AEr, you get the idea..... and m
y annual CI is due end of Feb and I haven't even started going through the
checklist of things to be done for that. That's a bunch of stuff, cleaning,
lubing, spark plugs, checks etc.....=0A=0ACan you imagine what an annual w
ith all this stuff left to be done at that annual would be like? I don't th
ink I'd ever get the plane back even tho this is all routine stuff (and doe
sn't even include the CI checklist required in my op limits).=0A=0AYet I've
seen logbooks on even standard category planes where the only entries are
the annuals and nothing else. Talk about hell... =0A=0AFor me, I want the a
nnual to be the AnP looking it over, doing what he needs to do and not rebu
ilding my plane and overhauling my engine. My last annual was about 3 hours
and $300. Hopefully the upcoming one will be about the same. =0A=0ALS=0A
=0A--------=0ALS=0ATitan II SS=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:
=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278699#278699=0A=0A=0A
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
On 09:28 AM 12/23/2009, Hugh MCKAY III wrote:
>Lucien:
>
>Your email spoke to really what should be happening all along during a year of
flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can handle the actual "100
hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane and, sign off the Inspection
if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certificate. If you don't have
one you can get one by attending a FAA 16 hour training course.
Hugh. I believe Lucien mentioned his plane being an Experimental-amateur-built,
so the "16 hour course" repairman certificate does not apply to him.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh MCKAY III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
Bob:=0A=0AI saw that on his latter email. You are correct.=0A=0AHugh=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bob Comperini <bob@fly-ul
.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, December 23, 2009
2:09:11 PM=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Your Mechanic May have Jus
@fly-ul.com>=0A=0AOn 09:28 AM 12/23/2009, Hugh MCKAY III wrote:=0A>Lucien:
=0A> =0A>Your email spoke to really what should be happening all along duri
ng a year of flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can handle
the actual "100 hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane and,
sign off the Inspection if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certificat
e. If you don't have one you can get one by attending a FAA 16 hour trainin
g course.=0A=0A=0AHugh. I believe Lucien mentioned his plane being an Exper
imental-amateur-built, so the "16 hour course" repairman certificate does n
ot apply to him.=0A=0A=0A=0A--=0ABob Comperini=0Ae-mail: bob@fly-ul.com=0AW
=========================0A
====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott DeMeyer <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Rough running 912UL |
Hello Listers,
My 912UL, with 360 hours, has developed pretty severe miss between 2,500 RPM and
3,000 RPM. I've synced the carbs mechanically and pneumatically , cleaned the
plugs and checked the ignition wiring but still have a miss. Number 4 cylinder
top and bottom plugs were velvet black as was the top and bottom plugs on number
one cylinder.
If I run up the motor over 3,000 rpm then bring to down to 2500 or so, the miss
goes away for about 5 or 10 seconds but then returns.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Scott DeMeyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Some mechanics log as little as possible in the hope that they will avoid some
liability. The logic of this eludes me but it is not uncommon.
I once bought an Exp A/B Titan Tornado 912 that was reasonably well maintained.
It was built by an A&P who rebuilds aircraft engines as his main line of work.
The only logbook entries for the Titan were oil/filter changes and annual condition
inspections, though I'm sure he did a lot of stuff that was not logged.
I asked him about it and he said I only record what the FAA requires. Since
SBs etc are not required on Exp A/B he never recorded them.
Regarding Lucien's comments about expensive annuals:
As you know, the inspection is not a maintenance and/or repair activity, except
for the engine cleaning and oil/filter change and other minor stuff like gapping
plugs etc.. Generally a mechanic/inspector's flat charge is for doing the
inspection only. Remedial or corrective work is not part of the inspection but
often required for return to service. We always issue an inspection report before
doing any corrective work for two reasons. One is that any corrective work
should be discussed with the owner so he can choose which (if any) of his options
for corrective measures is done. Two, we've not been contracted to do any
corrective work until the owner gives us the go-ahead and therefore he is not
obligated to pay us for this un-contracted work. One of his options is to not
get the work done at all. If the work is elective in nature but not required,
then we can return the aircraft to service without it being done. If it is required
work, then he can say don't do it and we do not return the aircraft to
service and that is part of the logbook entry. If he flies away after paying
our inspection fee, then our liability is ended there except to notify the FAA
of what we did.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278778#278778
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Some mechanics log as little as possible in the hope that they will avoid some
liability. The logic of this eludes me but it is not uncommon.
>
> I once bought an Exp A/B Titan Tornado 912 that was reasonably well maintained.
It was built by an A&P who rebuilds aircraft engines as his main line of work.
The only logbook entries for the Titan were oil/filter changes and annual
condition inspections, though I'm sure he did a lot of stuff that was not logged.
I asked him about it and he said I only record what the FAA requires. Since
SBs etc are not required on Exp A/B he never recorded them.
>
> Regarding Lucien's comments about expensive annuals:
>
> As you know, the inspection is not a maintenance and/or repair activity, except
for the engine cleaning and oil/filter change and other minor stuff like gapping
plugs etc.. Generally a mechanic/inspector's flat charge is for doing the
inspection only. Remedial or corrective work is not part of the inspection but
often required for return to service. We always issue an inspection report
before doing any corrective work for two reasons. One is that any corrective work
should be discussed with the owner so he can choose which (if any) of his
options for corrective measures is done. Two, we've not been contracted to do
any corrective work until the owner gives us the go-ahead and therefore he is
not obligated to pay us for this un-contracted work. One of his options is to
not get the work done at all. If the work is elective in nature but not required,
then we can return the aircraft to service without it being done. If it is
required work, then he can say don't do it and we do not return the aircraft
to service and that is part of the logbook entry. If he flies away after paying
our inspection fee, then our liability is ended there except to notify the FAA
of what we did.
A couple other thoughts I have on logging and inspections:
On an experimental airplane, I don't see the logic of not logging any work or inspections
you (the owner/op) do. Unless you're actively trying to evade some
rule or law it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm the one risking his neck flying
around in the air in the thing, I also don't have a photographic memory so
I need some kind of record of the maintenance/repairs/checks I've done and not
done on the plane so I can keep track of what's coming up. I usually can't even
remember when I changed the oil, what filter I've used, tightening torque used,
if I checked the mag. plug etc. So that goes in the logbook when I do it
so I have a ready reference for when it needs to be done again.
My personal opinion is the logbook is there for _me_ to know what state my airplane
is in at a given time. The legal requirements I consider to be minima but
I try to maintain a higher standard for myself.
As for the legally required inspections, they're well intended but in actual practice
they can do more harm than good. I used to live in TX where cars had to
have "annuals". A good idea in theory, but in practice one of the cheesiest,
snivelling scams ever come up with by a state govt. The intent is not public safety,
but more sinister motives like getting a particular type or age of car
off the road.
For aircraft, the situation is much better but I still believe you need to cover
your tail at all times. Like I said, things can be missed and you can't always
trust your mechanics. And the rules are inappropriate in some cases, like when
you have an LSA/912 class plane like mine in the EAB category - here the rules
are unsafe in that they require annual CI's by unqualified/untrained mechanics.
Here the owner/op has to be doubly careful. Luck is your only allay here - your
AnP may be familiar with your engine/airframe, but they also may not be.
But in all cases, IMO, the responsibility for the condition of my plane is ultimately
mine so I have to accept that and be willing to do the work to maintain
the plane.
So that;s what I consider the logbook to be - a record primarily for me to keep
track of the state of my plane. The legal requirements are, IMO, a very distant
second function to that main function for me.
Same with inspections. I don't consider an annual CI to be sufficient, so I do
a kind of continuous CI of the plane on my own and record what I do in the logbook,
legal or not.
I like to be legal, but I far prefer to be safe instead if I have to choose between
them and do choose safe every time.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278783#278783
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Merry Christmas Thom,
Hope your staying warm enough back there.
Very insightful post. Of the people that come through here they do have me make
all the fixes, tweaking and such, but you are 100% correct that you may not need
to for the airworthy part or the owner doesn't want you to. Then it just becomes
a logbook entry. My clients tend to want to know that they are 100% and
pay to make sure it's done that way from nose to tail. The people who just want
a logbook signed won't come to me because they know I won't take shortcuts,
and that's works for me. I have people from 6 different states that keep me busy
all year because they know I don't take shortcuts, they feel safer when they
leave and they really got what they paid for, plus they get documentation that
they usually don't get any where else. The people who care will come to you
if you treat them like the only aircraft on earth and make sure it's 100% when
it leaves. People will pay for that level of service. People like peace of
mind because they read the papers where pilots fall out of the sky and I'm sure
they don't want to be one of them. Most of my clients are cross country types,
too. Almost all are SLSA and very few ELSA except for engine work.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278784#278784
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Merry Christmas Thom,
> Hope your staying warm enough back there.
>
> Very insightful post. Of the people that come through here they do have me make
all the fixes, tweaking and such, but you are 100% correct that you may not
need to for the airworthy part or the owner doesn't want you to. Then it just
becomes a logbook entry. My clients tend to want to know that they are 100% and
pay to make sure it's done that way from nose to tail. The people who just
want a logbook signed won't come to me because they know I won't take shortcuts,
and that's works for me. I have people from 6 different states that keep me
busy all year because they know I don't take shortcuts, they feel safer when
they leave and they really got what they paid for, plus they get documentation
that they usually don't get any where else. The people who care will come to
you if you treat them like the only aircraft on earth and make sure it's 100%
when it leaves. People will pay for that level of service. People like peace of
mind because they read the papers where pilots fall out of the sky and I'm sure
they don't want to be one of them. Most of my clients are cross country types,
too. Almost all are SLSA and very few ELSA except for engine work.
To be honest, if my plane were ELSA and I lived near you or Thom, I'd still take
the plane to one of you guys for at least the first CI (owner-assist of course),
so I could see what a typical LSA CI really should look like. And I could
benifit from your experience with my type of plane and motor, etc.
Like I said, the LSA rule, tho I'm a harsh critic of it in most other respects,
is a pretty decent attempt to close the hole in the EAB rule that I talked about
earlier. I.e., get LSA class planes maintained/inspected by persons legally
qualified to inspect/maintain them.
As it is, my plane being EAB, I freely and willingly admit I'd rather the mechanic
that signs off the annual CI do as little as possible and stay as far away
from my engine with a wrench as I can keep him (unless he's actually trained
and experienced with LSA's which is not the case where I am).
That's a safety concern, not a rebellious-against-the-law one. Like I said, EAB
LSA's where you're not the builder are a kind of edge case in the EAB rules where
they actually lead to an unsafe situation that weren't anticipated so it's
not really anyone's fault.
My friend who has a 2nd hand RV doesn't have to worry as much as most of the plane
is already familiar to the typical AnP, but I do have to be very careful.
BTW, at my airport I and my friend with the RV seem to be the only nutcases that
insist on full owner-assist annuals. Even my AnP noted last year that "yep...
you two guys seem to be the only ones...". And even he has given up on owner-assist
(an annual on an RV is pretty grueling). So I'm the only mental patient
left who seems to want to do his own ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278786#278786
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Lucien,
As you are aware, many (perhaps most) standard category aircraft owners don't really
want to understand their airplanes well enough to do even those relatively
simple owner-allowed preventative maintenance items listed in the appendix
A section C of part 43. They prefer to trust completely the mechanic/inspector
who does all the work for him/her.
I encourage every owner regardless of the type of aircraft to learn as much as
possible about their airplane so they can know when something is just not right
before it becomes broken and they become a statistic. Some take this advice
seriously but some don't. All you can do is lead the horse to the water.
I know you've seen signs at mechanic shops that say something like
Flat Rate $50/hr
$60/hr if you watch
$70/hr if you help
When we do owner-assisted (fairly rare) inspections, the owner is instructed in
how to do something and then helped if he needs it, with constant supervision.
He does not get a break on price because it usually does take longer to teach
something than to do something but I always feel better when the owner is thereafter
better equipped knowledge-wise at the end of the process.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278788#278788
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Lucien,
>
> As you are aware, many (perhaps most) standard category aircraft owners don't
really want to understand their airplanes well enough to do even those relatively
simple owner-allowed preventative maintenance items listed in the appendix
A section C of part 43. They prefer to trust completely the mechanic/inspector
who does all the work for him/her.
>
> I encourage every owner regardless of the type of aircraft to learn as much as
possible about their airplane so they can know when something is just not right
before it becomes broken and they become a statistic. Some take this advice
seriously but some don't. All you can do is lead the horse to the water.
>
> I know you've seen signs at mechanic shops that say something like
> Flat Rate $50/hr
> $60/hr if you watch
> $70/hr if you help
>
> When we do owner-assisted (fairly rare) inspections, the owner is instructed
in how to do something and then helped if he needs it, with constant supervision.
He does not get a break on price because it usually does take longer to teach
something than to do something but I always feel better when the owner is
thereafter better equipped knowledge-wise at the end of the process.
Yep, I'd kill for that. As there's still a lot about my plane and motor I still
don't know (in fact I may be PM'ing you again on the carburettor overhaul issue
here in a bit, something that still needs to be done).
BTW, to my knowledge there's nothing in the rules for standard category that actually
prevents the owner/op from participating in or even slap doing maintenance,
repairs and even the annual - it's just that all the work and inspections
have to be signed off by an AnP (and an AnP with inspector rating on the annual).
Tough to find an AnP that'd be that permissive, tho.
This year I think I'm actually going to go through the part 43 checklist on my
plane myself in Feb. before taking it in. The AnP will still have to do it at
annual but I don't think I've actually done the list before on any of my other
planes.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278789#278789
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
The preventative maintenance items in the appendix referred to above are those
that the owner can legally perform and make his own logbook entries for, using
his pilot certificate number, like mechanics use their mech. certificate numbers.
Regardless of who does the preventative maintenance item it must be logged.
Some owners think they can do it but don't have to log it. Not so; it must
be logged to be legal.
Some mechanics, if s/he knows you and knows that you do good and contentious work,
will sign off on owner-assisted inspections. However, some mechanics will
not do any work or inspection at all on experimental aircraft of any kind. In
my experience that is much more common than those who will do owner-assisted inspections.
Those I've spoken to who will not do anything on exp a/b aircraft
cite liability as their primary concern. What I think is really going on with
these mechanics is that they know they don't know the airplane (as built) and
don't have well documented maintenance manuals to go by, which is what they are
used to on std. cat. aircraft. When we inspect an experimental, by the time
we're done with it we know it pretty well. The first inspection always takes
longer than subsequent ones, due to the learning curve.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278792#278792
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> The preventative maintenance items in the appendix referred to above are those
that the owner can legally perform and make his own logbook entries for, using
his pilot certificate number, like mechanics use their mech. certificate numbers.
Regardless of who does the preventative maintenance item it must be logged.
Some owners think they can do it but don't have to log it. Not so; it must
be logged to be legal.
>
> Some mechanics, if s/he knows you and knows that you do good and contentious
work, will sign off on owner-assisted inspections. However, some mechanics will
not do any work or inspection at all on experimental aircraft of any kind. In
my experience that is much more common than those who will do owner-assisted
inspections. Those I've spoken to who will not do anything on exp a/b aircraft
cite liability as their primary concern. What I think is really going on with
these mechanics is that they know they don't know the airplane (as built) and
don't have well documented maintenance manuals to go by, which is what they
are used to on std. cat. aircraft. When we inspect an experimental, by the time
we're done with it we know it pretty well. The first inspection always takes
longer than subsequent ones, due to the learning curve.
That's a good point. When I had my Kolb (FS II), I couldn't get an AnP to look
at it at all primarily because of the engine (rotax 503). The airframe itself
on all the Kolbs is really high quality probably the highest quality you'll see
on a light a/c. it uses aircraft grade hardware, materials, fabric etc. throughout
the whole plane. There's nothing goofy on it and it's all AN hardware,
Stitts fabric and etc. so that's not too big of a deal for a traditional AnP to
look at.
But the engine just sent em running....... Unfortunately, that eventually led to
me having to sell the plane, which fortunately the new owner had access to an
AnP that'd be willing to sign off the CI.
But I can see it and didn't fault them for it, since they have to put their signature
in the logbook.
PS: speaking of Rotax, is there a convenient way to check the timing on the 912?
At my first annual, the AnP I went to asked how to check it and we couldn't
figure it out. I vaguely remember looking in the maintenance manuals for this
and couldn't find it..... I'm assuming its similar to the 2-strokes where you
position the trigger coils just right in their mounts, but I can't see an easy
way to visually check this on the 912?
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278793#278793
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Lucien,
The 912 timing is fixed by the position of the trigger coils and they are not adjustable
for timing. As long as everything is fastened properly the timing is
correct. On Kolbs it is easy to see these by removing the plastic cover. On tractor
mounted engines it may be difficult to access this area. Fortunately, this
is one area that rarely causes problems on the 912. The electronic modules
can fail and the plug connectors must be well secured to the modules to prevent
vibration caused problems.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278795#278795
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh MCKAY III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Oil Analysis Report |
I have a 912 UL engine which had 228 hours on it when the oil was first ana
lyzed. I bought the engine new. It has been operating in my plane since Jun
e 2007. At 228 hours the oil had 53 hours when the first sample was taken.
The report from the first analysis had no comment on the results because it
was an initial test. The engine had 283 hours on it when the oil was chang
ed, and a second oil sample was taken and analysed (i.e 55 hours on the oil
). The second analysis and report showed an increase in Iron content from 2
0.4 ppm to 22.4 ppm (i.e an increase of 2.0 ppm). This item was flagged in
the report as an "Early Warning".-There were some other increases in ppm
for copper (+1.5 ppm), and silver (+1.3 ppm), but no comment regarding thos
e increases. I am going to call the lab and try to find out why they have f
lagged the Iron content as "Early Warning". Can anyone give me some guidanc
e as to why they would have flagged this as "Early Warning"? Early
warning of what?? What are the limits of iron in the engine oil in ppm for
a Rotax 912 UL with only 283 operational hours? Can anyone help me with th
is?? Am I in trouble with my engine?=0A=0AHugh McKay=0ARotax 912UL=0AAllegr
o 2000=0AN661WW
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oil Analysis Report |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
Here's a link to a short video on the topic of oil analysis:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184434145?bclid=1184431670&bctid=1672104239
On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Hugh MCKAY III wrote:
> I have a 912 UL engine which had 228 hours on it when the oil was first
> analyzed. I bought the engine new. It has been operating in my plane since
> June 2007. At 228 hours the oil had 53 hours when the first sample was
> taken. The report from the first analysis had no comment on the results
> because it was an initial test. The engine had 283 hours on it when the oil
> was changed, and a second oil sample was taken and analysed (i.e 55 hours on
> the oil). The second analysis and report showed an increase in Iron content
> from 20.4 ppm to 22.4 ppm (i.e an increase of 2.0 ppm). This item was
> flagged in the report as an *"Early Warning".* There were some other
> increases in ppm for copper (+1.5 ppm), and silver (+1.3 ppm), but no
> comment regarding those increases. I am going to call the lab and try to
> find out why they have flagged the Iron content as "Early Warning". Can
> anyone give me some guidance as to why they would have flagged this as
> "Early Warning"? Early warning of what?? What are the limits of iron in the
> engine oil in ppm for a Rotax 912 UL with only 283 operational hours? Can
> anyone help me with this?? Am I in trouble with my engine?
>
> Hugh McKay
> Rotax 912UL
> Allegro 2000
> N661WW
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oil Analysis Report |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Hugh,
Just watch the samples, they will fluctuate up and down. My sample was iron 24.1,
copper 9.3 and silver .1. at 351 hrs
The 400 hr. sample was iron 20.7, copper 9.3 and silver less than .1
I'll let you know what my 500 hr. sample is in about 2-3 weeks when I get the results
back.
Your oil analysis will fluctuate. Just look for continuing trends. With these readings
both my reports stated they were normal. I have others at lower hour samples
and they all fluctuate some. I would bet switching oils between analysis
might change the results too.
I will also depend on who is doing your oil analysis. I have been using Aviation
Laboratories that do a lot of Rotax engines.
I will say this, my best analysis and my cleanest mag plug checks are with AmsOil
motorcycle oil. I use 20-50W in the warm months and 10-40W in the colder months.
The mag plugs I see using Amsoil seem to be cleaner for my clients that
use the Amsoil over other oils. My mag plug may have nothing at all on it and
some of the other oils have mag plugs with fuzz on it. Just an observation from
seeing 35 different oil mag plugs a year and at least 2 oil changes each. I
use Amsoil in my Honda Goldwing 1800 too and it does make my shifting smoother
and quieter. A little fuzz on the plug is normal, but clean seems to work for
me, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278816#278816
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Damien" <dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:49 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You
>
> Merry Christmas Thom,
> Hope your staying warm enough back there.
>
> Very insightful post. Of the people that come through here they do have me
> make all the fixes, tweaking and such, but you are 100% correct that you
> may not need to for the airworthy part or the owner doesn't want you to.
> Then it just becomes a logbook entry. My clients tend to want to know that
> they are 100% and pay to make sure it's done that way from nose to tail.
> The people who just want a logbook signed won't come to me because they
> know I won't take shortcuts, and that's works for me. I have people from 6
> different states that keep me busy all year because they know I don't take
> shortcuts, they feel safer when they leave and they really got what they
> paid for, plus they get documentation that they usually don't get any
> where else. The people who care will come to you if you treat them like
> the only aircraft on earth and make sure it's 100% when it leaves. People
> will pay for that level of service. People like peace of mind because they
> read the papers where pilots fall !
> out of the sky and I'm sure they don't want to be one of them. Most of my
> clients are cross country types, too. Almost all are SLSA and very few
> ELSA except for engine work.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278784#278784
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh MCKAY III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Analysis Report |
Roger:=0A=0AThank you for your reply. I am using Mobile 1 Racing 4T 10W40 F
ully Synthetic and have been since the engine was new. At least I am not al
armed now having read your email. I will continue to watch the samples. I s
till do not know why the lab flagged the iron content, but I will ask them
after Christmas. Let me know what your 500 hr sample results are. Thanks ag
ain, and Merry Christmas!=0A=0AHugh McKay=0AAllegro 2000=0ARotax 912UL=0AN6
61WW=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Roger Lee <ssadive
r1(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, December 2
4, 2009 5:02:26 PM=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Oil Analysis Report=0A
m>=0A=0AHi Hugh,=0A=0AJust watch the samples, they will fluctuate up and do
wn. My sample was iron 24.1, copper 9.3 and silver .1.- at 351 hrs=0A=0AT
he 400 hr. sample was iron 20.7, copper 9.3 and silver less than .1 =0A=0AI
'll let you know what my 500 hr. sample is in about 2-3 weeks when I get th
e results back.=0AYour oil analysis will fluctuate. Just look for continuin
g trends. With these readings both my reports stated they were normal. I ha
ve others at lower hour samples and they all fluctuate some. I would bet sw
itching oils between analysis might change the results too.=0A=0AI will als
o depend on who is doing your oil analysis. I have been using Aviation Labo
ratories that do a lot of Rotax engines.=0A=0AI will say this, my best anal
ysis and my cleanest mag plug checks are with AmsOil motorcycle oil. I use
20-50W in the warm months and 10-40W in the colder months. The mag plugs I
see using Amsoil seem to be cleaner for my clients that use the Amsoil over
other oils. My mag plug may have nothing at all on it and some of the othe
r oils have mag plugs with fuzz on it. Just an observation from seeing 35 d
ifferent oil mag plugs a year and at least 2 oil changes each. I use Amsoil
in my Honda Goldwing 1800 too and it does make my shifting smoother and qu
ieter. A little fuzz on the plug is normal, but clean seems to work for me,
too.=0A=0A--------=0ARoger Lee=0ATucson, Az.=0ALight Sport Repairman - Mai
ntenance Rated=0ARotax Repair Center=0A520-574-1080=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this
topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2788
=========================0A
====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 912 UL runs rough on 1 "mag" |
| From: | "ejessee" <eejessee(at)us.ibm.com> |
My 912 UL runs smoothly on the Right mag but rough on the left. I have checked
all the plugs and they seem fine. I have had this problem for a while but it
goes away when the engine warms up. I can't seem to get the engine warm flying
--------
Ernest Jessee
N4931M
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278829#278829
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chas Knightsbridge <cknightsbridge(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | How are you doing? Z |
p
My friend:
I have a wonderful electronics shopping experience on www.eoffar.com
I have already bought a lot of goods from it
Currently the company is under sales promotion
MSN: eoffarservice(at)hotmail.com
Email: eoffarservice(at)188.come
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of Hotmail Check out the latest features today
http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/hotmail/article/878466/your-hotmail-is-ab
out-to-get-even-better
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How are you doing? Z |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Chas, take your spam and stick it.
Rick
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Chas Knightsbridge <
cknightsbridge(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
> p
> My friend:
> I have a wonderful electronics shopping experience on www.eoffar.com
> I have already bought a lot of goods from it
> Currently the company is under sales promotion
> MSN: eoffarservice(at)hotmail.com
> Email: eoffarservice(at)188.com
> e
> ------------------------------
> Check out the latest features today Get more out of Hotmail<http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/hotmail/article/878466/your-hotmail-is-about-to-get-even-better>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chas Knightsbridge <cknightsbridge(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | How are you doing? Z |
Hey Rick=2C
I might say the same to your polite comment!
Regrettably this is spam that has been generated without my knowledge or pa
rticipation.
To all others on the group my apologies=2C have a great day and Prosperous
new Year
Chas
I use AVG professional as my internet spam protector!
Date: Fri=2C 25 Dec 2009 15:54:11 -0600
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: How are you doing? Z
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Hey Chas=2C take your spam and stick it.
Rick
On Fri=2C Dec 25=2C 2009 at 1:20 PM=2C Chas Knightsbridge wrote:
p
My friend:
I have a wonderful electronics shopping experience on www.eoffar.com
I have already bought a lot of goods from it
Currently the company is under sales promotion
MSN: eoffarservice(at)hotmail.com
Email: eoffarservice(at)188.come
Check out the latest features today Get more out of Hotmail
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
nk">www.howtocrimp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_________________________________________________________________
A world FIRST in property search has arrived! Check out Domain Radar NOW!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How are you doing? Z |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
If I might make a suggestion in the spirit of the Holiday:
Stop using spam infested "free" email and simply read and write
the forums directly from forum.matronics.com
Then, we can all rejoice without the unsightly spam and endless
empty quotes added to your emails.
Cheers,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278876#278876
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax mechanic near Olympia,WA |
| From: | "sdemeyer" <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
My 912UL runs like crap and I have not been able to figure out the problem. Anyone
know of a Rotax guru in the Olympia,WA area?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278906#278906
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 912 ignition module question |
| From: | "sdemeyer" <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
The ignition modules on my 912UL, SN: 4005311 are of the old design (Part No: 965-358
). I'm looking at the Heavy Maintenance manual and I do not see my particular
ignition setup for a 912, according to the illustrations. The way mine
is wired and looks, is like the "914 old style", Section 74 page 31, with the
same components.
Everything I have read for a 912UL says Module A runs 1-2 top, 3-4 bottom and Module
B runs 1-2 bottom, 3-4 top.
Mine is setup so Module A runs 1-2 top, 3-4 top and module B runs 1-2 bottom and
3-4 bottom.
What is the correct way this should be wired, or does it matter?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278996#278996
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax mechanic near Olympia,WA |
| From: | "deltadart48" <deltadart48(at)gmail.com> |
Scott,
Contact Jim Scott up at Arlington at (360) 815-2512. He's the best source I know
of in the area.
Ed
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279022#279022
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 ignition module question |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Scott,
I don't think it matters. The older engines were setup different and wired different.
They used different plugs at the ignition modules, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279034#279034
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
A friend's Rotax 914 won't start--actually, it fires up, but won't get above about
900 rpm.
When the weather was warm, the engine started and ran smoothly. But had trouble
getting past 900 rpm on the last successful start, when the weather was starting
to get cold. And now it just won't do it at all.
I have a theory, but before mentioning it to the owner, I'd like to ask what you
guys think is the cause.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279115#279115
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
SeaRay:
Ya gots to be more exact.
What OAT?
How long has the engine soaked at cold temps?
What OIL?
What viscosity oil?
Is the fuel fresh?
>From what you say ... It DID get above 900 RPM just took a long time to get
the engine warm?
Did you PRE-HEAT the engine?
Sure sounds like PRE-HEAT should of been the first step.
A fellow I know NEVER used pre-heat on his O-360 and the engine ran fine for
many a year. He just had the engine rebuilt - TBO ya know. This being the
first winter with the new engine (less than 25 hrs) the old no pre-heat
procedure DID NOT WORK. It would not even turn over. Starter froze
engaged. YET! As soon as the temps got to 50 F the thing kicked over in
one blade.
So, what theory do you have?
Barry
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 1:03 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>
> A friend's Rotax 914 won't start--actually, it fires up, but won't get
> above about 900 rpm.
>
> When the weather was warm, the engine started and ran smoothly. But had
> trouble getting past 900 rpm on the last successful start, when the weather
> was starting to get cold. And now it just won't do it at all.
>
> I have a theory, but before mentioning it to the owner, I'd like to ask
> what you guys think is the cause.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279115#279115
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
flyadive(at)gmail.com wrote:
>
> From what you say ... It DID get above 900 RPM just took a long time to get
the engine warm?
Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't accelerate even
to normal idle speed.
The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had trouble getting past
900, but did after several seconds of chugging. At 45 F it would fire on all
cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm (approximately). I didn't pre-heat the
engine, but I'm sure that low temperature is not the problem; it just makes the
problem worse. These engines start just fine down to 0 F and below if the spark
plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which they were on this engine.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279149#279149
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
AmphibFlyer wrote:
>
> flyadive(at)gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > From what you say ... It DID get above 900 RPM just took a long time to get
the engine warm?
>
> Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't accelerate
even to normal idle speed.
>
> The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had trouble getting
past 900, but did after several seconds of chugging. At 45 F it would fire on
all cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm (approximately). I didn't pre-heat the
engine, but I'm sure that low temperature is not the problem; it just makes
the problem worse. These engines start just fine down to 0 F and below if the
spark plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which they were on this engine.
Don't know if 2-stroke experience crosses over here, but two things that I've seen
cause this kind of behavior are
- huge, massively heavy prop
- weak gearbox springs
It always amazes me the gigantic 2 ton props a lot of guys hang on these things
- what prop, how big and how many blades? If it's way past the MOI limit on the
912 GB (6000 kg/cm3 last I looked in the manual, same as the 2-stroke C box)
the engine simply may not be able to overcome it.
Same if the springs are worn and the preload is too weak. It'll be fighting the
gearbox in that case too.
All that could be aggravated by a cold start as well...
If it's not that, I'm out of ideas and would like to know what it is once you finally
figure out what it is...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279154#279154
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "pasj66" <patrik(at)sjolund.com> |
Hello all,
fwiw check starting technique compared with the below document
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d04645.pdf
throttle at idle and control rpm with choke until warm. I have a installation with
4 EGTs and the temp distribution is quite sensitive to the choke when cold.
Good luck
Best regards
Patrik
--------
MCR R100, R914UL3 W/IC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279190#279190
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Propeller inertia |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Once again the subject of propeller inertia has reared it's head. Has anyone
EVER found a propeller that falls outside the range of the "C" and "E" 2
stroke gearboxes and the 912 engine (6000 kg(cm squared)) by performing the
test in SI 11ul91 E? My experience is limited by the props I own which
includes a 3 blade Warp Drive and a 4 blade Power Fin as well as several 2
blade wood props from TPI and Culver. All of them passed, although despite
popular mythology my 2 blade 68" wood Culver tested almost as high as the
66" 3 blade (straight blades, no nickle covers) with the HP-L hub.
I don't expect that there are NO propellers that exceed the limit, I've just
never seen anyone, except me, (look in the Kolb forum archives from early
2007) post that they actually tested a prop and the result.
Rick Girard
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Propeller inertia |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
rickofudall wrote:
> Once again the subject of propeller inertia has reared it's head. Has anyone
EVER found a propeller that falls outside the range of the "C" and "E" 2 stroke
gearboxes and the 912 engine (6000 kg(cm squared)) by performing the test in
SI 11ul91 E? My experience is limited by the props I own which includes a 3 blade
Warp Drive and a 4 blade Power Fin as well as several 2 blade wood props
from TPI and Culver. All of them passed, although despite popular mythology my
2 blade 68" wood Culver tested almost as high as the 66" 3 blade (straight blades,
no nickle covers) with the HP-L hub. I don't expect that there are NO propellers
that exceed the limit, I've just never seen anyone, except me, (look
in the Kolb forum archives from early 2007) post that they actually tested a prop
and the result.
>
>
> Rick Girard
>
The IVO medium in 3-blades is a popular choice and I wouldn't be surprised if it
exceeded 6000 kg/cm3. When I took mine off it was like pulling a bowling ball
off the back of the plane. In fact, the weight reduction compared to my powerfin
was so much I had to redo the W&B (9.2 lbs lighter overall) and the plane
flies noticeably differently (CG moved forward nearly an inch).
Didn't measure the MOI, tho my 912 was instantly happier at all rpm's and power
levels when it was replaced with the powerfin.
I had a WD 68" 3 blade on the plane for a while too, but it had to go because of
a harmonic vibration problem I couldn't get rid of. Its rotating mass was also
significantly less than the IVO medium (and yes contrary to myth, the WD is
within the 6000 kg/cm3 MOI limit).
Also keep in mind that extensions worsen the situation with any prop, as they add
arm to the Coriolis forces exerted on the prop shaft. Rotax limits the permissible
length of extension for that reason (a little over 4" IIRC).
So you want as light as possible especially with an extension.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279210#279210
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA
Don't be misinformed here is an article with the real facts. Be one of the informed
on LSA maintenance and your Rotax engine.
Article by Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation.
http://www.rainbowaviation.com/artic...20training.pdf
This is a must read for the LSA community.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279353#279353
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
The complete URL is:
http://www.rainbowaviation.com/articles/draft%20rotax%20training.pdf
Or as a tiny URL:
http://tinyurl.com/yfgwjsr
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:08 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA
-->
Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA
Don't be misinformed here is an article with the real facts. Be one of the
informed on LSA maintenance and your Rotax engine.
Article by Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation.
http://www.rainbowaviation.com/artic...20training.pdf
This is a must read for the LSA community.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279353#279353
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Interesting reading, indeed.
Roger,
I have a couple question regarding this subject:
1) Can you quote line and verse in the ASTM rules that state that a certified mechanic
must have Engine Manufacturer's Certification to work on that engine in
an SLSA? If so, please do.
2) I've not read any recent revisions of the ASTM rule but if my memory is correct,
the manufacturer is responsible for stating the qualification requirements
of mechanics or repairmen who do work on their SLSA aircraft. Is this not still
the case? If it is still the case, then what certifications a mechanic or
repariman must have is dictated in that specific manufacturer's maintenance manual.
If it is not the case then it must be stated in the ASTM rules for certification
to be mandatory.
I've just finished reading the current (Oct/2009) 912 Maintenance Manual, particularly
the parts about who can work on these engines, i.e., pages 18, 24 & 28.
Careful reading of this indicates to me that CERTIFICATION by Rotax is not an
absolute requirement by BRP-Powertrain. Qualification can be attained by alternate
methods, according to my reading of this document. CERTIFICATION by Rotax
may or may not be a requirement of the individual SLSA manufacturers.
I'm not trying to get into an argument with you, Roger, but just because Rainbow
Aviation makes a statement, does not mean it is true. Same for EAA. The only
written statements that carry legal weight are from the FAA (in the USA), ASTM
(for SLSA), and the manufacturers maintenance manuals and pertinent documentation.
If none of these make the statement that CERTIFICATION from Rotax is mandatory,
then it is not a legal requirement.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279394#279394
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
On 07:04 AM 12/31/2009, Thom Riddle wrote:
>I've just finished reading the current (Oct/2009) 912 Maintenance Manual, particularly
the parts about who can work on these engines, i.e., pages 18, 24 & 28.
Careful reading of this indicates to me that CERTIFICATION by Rotax is not
an absolute requirement by BRP-Powertrain. Qualification can be attained by alternate
methods, according to my reading of this document. CERTIFICATION by Rotax
may or may not be a requirement of the individual SLSA manufacturers.
The way I read it...
In the various maintenance manuals, Rotax has an "Authorized Personnel" chapter
(for example, chapter 05-00-00, section 1.2 of the line maintenance manual),
detailing "who" can work on their engines. From that chapter, I see two ways to
be allowed to work on their engines, but both appear to require training from
Rotax.
If the aircraft manufacturer "passed the buck" and instructs maintenance in accordance
with Rotax (which I think most do), then the Rotax rules apply. I suppose
the SLSA manufacturer could over rule Rotax, and their maintenance requirements,
but I don't know of any that do. They'd be taking on a bunch of engine
liability, if they did.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
SeaRay:
I am a very single minded, serial input, data digesting machine.
Your response opens up many more questions:
[SeaRay]: Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't
accelerate even to normal idle speed
1 - How long did you let the engine run in the 900 RPM range before calling
it quits?
2 - What Oil Temps were you seeing while it was running in the 900 RPM range
and before you shut it down?
[SeaRay]: The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had
trouble getting past 900, but did after several seconds of chugging.
3 - What is your definition of "RAN NORMALLY" ... IF it had trouble getting
past 900 RPM?
[SeaRay]: At 45 F it would fire on all cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm
(approximately).
4 - Crazy question here .... How do you KNOW it was firing on ALL cylinders?
[SeaRay]: ... if the spark plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which they
were on this engine.
5 - I am at a disadvantage here, I do not know (now) the spark plug or gap
requirement. but, 0.024" seems on the low side for a CDI. I run 0.035" on
platum plugs in an O-360 with a CDI.
OK, lets see what ideas we can come up with with the available info:
a> Sure sounds like Pre-Heat would help a lot.
b> Also sounds like a vacuum leak on the intake.
c> Running too lean also fits the low RPM and inability to accelerate.
d> Incorrect routing of Spark Plug wires.
e> Incorrect Timing would produce the same results.
f> Does the ignition have Vacuum Advance? A leak there or totally
disconnected ... Same results.
When you throw the book on the table there are MANY possibilities /
variables, above are just starting points. Are there ANY situation that do
produce acceptable results?
Let's take each individual item and eliminate it as a variable. Lets
produce a list of KNOWN GOOD ITEMS.
Barry
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> flyadive(at)gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > From what you say ... It DID get above 900 RPM just took a long time to
> get the engine warm?
>
> Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't
> accelerate even to normal idle speed.
>
> The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had trouble
> getting past 900, but did after several seconds of chugging. At 45 F it
> would fire on all cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm (approximately). I
> didn't pre-heat the engine, but I'm sure that low temperature is not the
> problem; it just makes the problem worse. These engines start just fine down
> to 0 F and below if the spark plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which
> they were on this engine.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
lucien wrote:
> Don't know if 2-stroke experience crosses over here, but two things that I've
seen cause this kind of behavior are
> - huge, massively heavy prop
> - weak gearbox springs
I think it's probably the gearbox springs, too. I didn't want to say so at first
for fear of biasing any responses. This engine behaves a lot like mine did at
about 400 hours: It would fire on all cylinders, but would not speed up past
about 1,000 rpm. An aural indication was sort of a "chucka-chucka" sound as the
engine tried to speed up. The remedy was to remove the gearbox and send it
to Lockwood for replacement (and shimming) of the springs. On this engine, the
sound is somewhat different than mine produced. That's why I'm not sure I've
diagnosed the problem correctly. But the other indications seem the same.
But there could be other causes as well, so if anyone has ideas, please let me
know.
Also, if anyone knows why weak or worn springs prevent the engine from speeding
up, I hope you'll explain it to me. I know that the ignition timing advances
between about 600 and 900 rpm on these engines, but I don't really understand
why the gearbox springs would affect the rpm, regardless of whether the timing
is retarded for starting, or advanced for running.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279431#279431
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
AmphibFlyer wrote:
>
> lucien wrote:
> > Don't know if 2-stroke experience crosses over here, but two things that I've
seen cause this kind of behavior are
> > - huge, massively heavy prop
> > - weak gearbox springs
>
>
> I think it's probably the gearbox springs, too. I didn't want to say so at first
for fear of biasing any responses. This engine behaves a lot like mine did
at about 400 hours: It would fire on all cylinders, but would not speed up past
about 1,000 rpm. An aural indication was sort of a "chucka-chucka" sound as
the engine tried to speed up. The remedy was to remove the gearbox and send it
to Lockwood for replacement (and shimming) of the springs. On this engine, the
sound is somewhat different than mine produced, and that's why I'm not sure
I've diagnosed the problem correctly. But the other indications seem the same.
>
> But there could be other causes as well (such as a bad sprag clutch), so if anyone
has ideas, please let me know.
>
> Also, if anyone knows why weak or worn springs prevent the engine from speeding
up, I hope you'll explain it to me. I know that the ignition timing advances
between about 600 and 900 rpm on these engines, but I don't really understand
why the gearbox springs can affect the rpm, regardless of whether the timing
is retarded for starting, or advanced for running.
Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run. Some of the
kinetic energy of the power stroke is stored in a flywheel to carry out the
other 3 strokes (which are necessarily unpowered).
Weak springs in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft such that
the flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be defeated in
just the right way at certain rpm's. This is caused by the exessive slipping
of the dog hub with the sudden reengagement as the hubs make contact at each side.
Years ago a friend of mine tried to design a prop extension on a 503 and he ran
into the same problem. It was a narrow steel shaft that flexed torsionally. The
engine would shake violently at a very low rpm until the crossbolt holding
the shaft to the gearbox adapter plate he made snapped. Then the engine would
run perfectly, albeit with the shaft slipping horribly.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279439#279439
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
lucien wrote:
> Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run... Weak springs
in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft such that the
flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be defeated in just
the right way at certain, usually very low, rpm's. This is caused by the exessive
slipping of the dog hub with the sudden reengagement as the hubs make contact
at each side.
Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must be in
there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These Rotax engines
have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so I hadn't considered
the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear lash. Can't say
I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the time.
What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this condition
in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't been able to
find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch problem.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279445#279445
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
AmphibFlyer a crit :
> Rotax engines have a flywheel
AmphibFlyer,
Rotax engines have NO flywheel.
> (and will run smoothly without a prop)
Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
Season's greetings
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Bob,
You are exactly right. Most SLSA refer back to the Rotax manual which does say
you need some type of Rotax training. That means A&P's as well as RLSM's need
a class. For the mechanics the "Service " and "Line Maint" is the most useful.
Owners could get away with just a "Service" class because they aren't allowed
to remove components under SLSA rules anyway. The SLSA Mfg will never override
the Rotax manual because then they have to take all the liability. Some owners
even send their resident A&P to a Rotax class which is a great idea and benefits
both the mechanic and the owner. At least the "Service" class would let
owners do some of the easier and more common things like an oil change or plug
change and know what not to do or the right way to do it because it is different
than all other engines. You wouldn't believe the number of calls I get monthly
from owners that go, I made a mistake, just because they didn't know a simple
procedure was different on a Rotax and want to know how bad it will affect
the engine. I encourage all Rotax owners to take a Rotax class.
Hope all are having a nice Holidays,
Roger Lee
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279452#279452
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the other hand,
the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several places (July
01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't seem to show
a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop and relied
on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So maybe it
can be done and maybe it can't.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
No argument here. I like to discuss things and actually happy to do so. I hope
you guys are staying warm back there?
I hope I don't muddy the waters more. The article is 100% correct. I have been
over this with Edsel Ford of the FAA (top LSA admin) and other SLSA Mfg's.
ASTM doesn't apply quite the same to SLSA as GA because we aren't certified aircraft
and the FAA gives the SLSA Mfg god like powers over their own aircraft.
(within reason of course). When reading the ASTM's you have to make sure in the
statement you are reading if it means certified aircraft, includes SLSA or exempts
SLSA and or gives power on that particular area to the SLSA Mfg.
You are right. The SLSA Mfg. dictates who can do the maint and what level of training
is required. If it isn't stated then an A&P or RLSM is good to go. Most
SLSA Mfg's state either "owner" for the simple things, RLSM or A&P for the other
items. If the SLSA Mfg says either and RLSM or A&P then that's it, the owner
is out of that function.
If the SLSA Mfg says follow the Rotax maint manual (like most do) then all have
to follow that directive. An SLSA Mfg must actually state Owner, RLSM or A&P
in their language. It absolutely can not just say an "RLSM or higher grade certificate".
I went through this with 2 SLSA mfg's and they had to correct their
language because the FAA doesn't have a higher grade certificate in the mechanic
ranks. In the pilot ranks yes, but not for mechanics. You are either an RLSM,
an A&P or an IA recognized by the FAA.
Here is an example:
In the Flight Design Maint manual under engine inspection it list "owner", but
he must follow the Rotax maint manual according to the that section.
So you go to the Rotax manual for authorization and it specifically states that
anyone regardless of your credentials must have a Rotax school.
So if the owner were to attend a Rotax school he would be allowed to do some things
on his own engine even if it is an SLSA. So long as you follow you LSA Mfg's
instructions.
These FD rules that give Rotax the final say on an authorization also apply to
RLSM's, A&P's and IA's.
It has nothing to do with the ASTM standards per-say. We are not certified aircraft
which means we tend to follow more of the SLSA's instructions or directives.
It is what is in each individual SLSA's maint manual and who they give permission
and if they say follow the Rotax manual. Then everyone is locked into
getting Rotax training regardless of your credentials.
The big catch phrase is"Does your SLSA maint. manual say to follow the Rotax manual"?
If it does then Rotax school is in your future.
As an A&P without a Rotax school you can't even sign off an annual condition inspection
if it included a Rotax engine. If an A&P signs off an annual and has
never been to a Rotax school then that SLSA is no longer airworthy.
The article spells this out very clearly. Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation is
on the committees that develop these rules and regs. for the SLSA community.
I have heard there are as many as 150 people on these committees including AOPA,
EAA, LSA mfgs and other concerned people.
If I muddied the water let me know and I'll try and word it better. Sometimes my
wording isn't as clear as it could be.
Have a good New Year, Thom,
Roger Lee
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279462#279462
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
To further confuse the issue, or at least make it even more "interesting", are
those type certificated aircraft that use type certificated Rotax 912 engines...
especially interesting since they existed before the ASTM and SP/LSA rule came
about. The Diamond Katana manual at the time of its last production (later
replaced with Cont. IO-240 engine) states
The following Documentation should be used in conjunction with this manual:
- DA 20 KATANA Flight Manual
- DA 20/100 KATANA Flight Manual
- Instruction Manual for the Hoffmann propeller
- Service Bulletins
- Operator's Manual for all versions of the ROTAX 912
- Maintenance Manual for ROTAX Engine Type 912 Series
and that is pretty much all it states regarding engine maintenance other than maintenance
and inspection schedule, which then refers to Rotax manuals. Interestingly,
Diamond REQUIRES use of 100LL as the only approved fuel.
Because it is a type certificated airplane you (Roger) as an RSLM cannot work on
the Rotax engine (or any other part of the airplane) except for preventive maintenance
and then only if you are the owner and have a Private Pilot or higher
certificate. But I can because I am a certified Powerplant Mechanic. Threading
the needle through the regulations requires patience and perseverance.
We got a break from the cold today. It went up to 34 today.
Happy New Year to all Rotaxers.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279470#279470
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
I almost forgot. If you have an ELSA then this guy can do the work. [Laughing]
http://www.trunkmonkeyad.com/4qt.htm
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279472#279472
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gilles is right 100%!
You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into a
RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
itself apart / explode.
Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
> no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Only if the owner says he can :-).
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279476#279476
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Amphibflyer, You've posed a "how long is a piece of string" question and
there's just too much information missing to make any sort of reasonable
guess.
Has there ever been a time when this engine started and ran normally? How
long ago was that? How many hours are on this engine? Like others I'd like
to know what is known to be good.
Since it won't cost anything or require much in the way of disassembly,
given the temperatures you're quoted, I'd take the exhaust pipe off the
turbo and make sure there are no blockages in the turbine or the pipe. Rotax
engines don't have enough of a pulse coming out the pipe to blow off a zip
lock bag held on by a rubber band. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you had
a mouse nest in the pipe somewhere.
As Beauford says, "Worth what you paid for it"
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
> no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
Your right I can not work on "Certified" aircraft with my RLSM cert which makes
me happy to no end, especially when I see the other A&P's cussing up a storm
at the certified airplane that is usually old, oilly and needs lots of TLC.
The SLSA are all newer aircraft, clean and no parts falling off. I am tickled
pink not to have to work on 20-60 year old Cessna's or Piper's.
I really only specialize on LSA aircraft and Rotax engines and even more specifically
the 912. Specializing in only a single engine company and just a few LSA
aircraft lets me really stay up on all the specifics to the LSA community. I
think it helps me be more in tune with my customer's needs, too.
34F? It really gets that cold. Burrrr, I need a jacket below 72F. [Laughing]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279483#279483
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How exactly
are you going to CLOCK it?
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Gilles is right 100%!
>
> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
> itself apart / explode.
>
> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>> no-no.
>>
>>
>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>
>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>> lder's Bookstore
>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =============
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
I should have specified the 912/914 series, The two strokes run 2.00, 2.58,
3.47 and 4.00 that I can remember off hand.
Rick
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>
>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
>> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
>> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
>> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
>> itself apart / explode.
>>
>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
>> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>> no-no.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>
>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Attachments:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>> lder's Bookstore
>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> =============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
rickofudall wrote:
> Amphibflyer, ...Has there ever been a time when this engine started and ran normally?
How long ago was that? How many hours are on this engine?
Yes, yes, the engine has run almost 250 hours and it ran well a few weeks ago,
when I flew the airplane several times. The last time I flew it was when the engine
took a while to accelerate past about 900 rpm, and once it did the engine
ran well and the airplane flew fine. When I tried to fly it a few days later,
the temp was in the 40s F, and that time the engine would start but wouldn't
accelerate to normal idle speed. The problem is not related to spark plug gap
or the starting carburetors. I'm almost certain that it's caused by worn gearbox
springs, exacerbated by the cool temperature. Just wanted to see if my diagnosis
was likely to be correct, and Lucien's post seems to corroborate it.
In response to someone's observation about the narrow spark plug gap: Rotax says
that the normal range for 914 plugs is .024" to .028" and that for cold weather
they can be as tight as .020". My own 914 (with about 860 hours) always starts
in cold weather if the gaps are .025" or less--except for the one time when
the gearbox springs were shot. That was probably caused in part by too-low
idle speeds. The engine is on an amphibian, and we routinely need very slow idle
speed when docking. (Standard seaplane practice is to shut off one mag for
even less thrust.) Since then I've kept the rpm up around 2,000 or faster, except
for the few seconds that it's essential to idle slower, and that seems to
have kept the washers from further excessive wear.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279489#279489
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Blackmore" <blackmore(at)platinum.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Take the intake off the turbo and see if it turns with your finger it sho
uld
spin real easy, then if it does stay clear and try to start the engine w
ith
it off.. The intake to the turbo that is .....Pull a line off and make su
re
you are getting fuel and no junk on the screen in the tank. Check ignitio
n
system is behaving. Check choke is opening. Check starter is throwing ou
t
That should keep you busy for the first ten mins! Check back with the rig
ht
answer
Chris
-------Original Message-------
From: AmphibFlyer
Date: 31/12/2009 11:59:55 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start
lucien wrote:
> Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run...
Weak springs in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft suc
h
that the flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be
defeated in just the right way at certain, usually very low, rpm's. This
is
caused by the exessive slipping of the dog hub with the sudden reengageme
nt
as the hubs make contact at each side.
Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must
be
in there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These
Rotax engines have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so
I
hadn't considered the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear l
ash
Can't say I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the t
ime
What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this
condition in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't b
een
able to find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch probl
em.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279445#279445
==========
==========
==========
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
I guess at 250 hours you can have gearbox problems. Off the cuff the
first thingI would check is to make sure you have fresh gas, and
clean the carb snot out of carbs. In my experiance with type 64 Bing carbs
on my R100GS, the first thing that snots up is the enrichment jet located
in the float bowl! I also find some snot in the main jets and
other.Best replace gaskets on float bowl, and or any suspect
O-rings. Any air leak on a 914 float bowl or other can negate ability to
maintain between ~2 and ~5 PSI fuel pressure over airbox pressure. My gut
feeling is a gearbox issue would not happen all of a sudden, clogged
enrichmnet jet or lean mixture can happen all of a sudden. Jet could have
been clogged for a while and you didn't notice till temp came down. The
more alcohol in your fuel, the leaner the mixture, if you got a 20%
batch..... BTW I have read a while back that for very cold weather
operations of 91X, you can make enrichment circuit more rich. It was in a
notice I recieved from Rotax, service bulletin, alert or other. Ripped
diaphragm or any other leak that can cause a lean mixture will do you no
good as well. Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Rich:
I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct drives.
Why you may ask?
Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
diameter than the gears.
The procedure is this:
1 - Take all safety precautions.
2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
it from the front of the engine.
6 - Position and reassemble as required.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>
>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
>> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
>> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
>> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
>> itself apart / explode.
>>
>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
>> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>> no-no.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>
>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Attachments:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>
>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>> lder's Bookstore
>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> =============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Once you reached operating temperature when the engine was running well, did
you notice a lot of clatter when the engine was at idle?
Assuming there is a gearbox problem, there is a very easy way to check it.
You'll need your engine fixation pin to lock the crank, a fishing scale, and
a strap. The test is detailed in the manuals and I believe there's a SB on
it, too.
Adding to the suggestions concerning potential carb issues, have you checked
the carb mounting flanges? There was a bad batch produced that cracked
readily. The HKS uses the same part and mine lasted barely a year. I could
not see the damage until I took them off the engine and looked at them in
bright light, then the cracks were readily visible.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, wrote:
> I guess at 250 hours you can have gearbox problems. Off the cuff the first
> thing I would check is to make sure you have fresh gas, and clean the carb
> snot out of carbs. In my experiance with type 64 Bing carbs on my R100GS,
> the first thing that snots up is the enrichment jet located in the float
> bowl! I also find some snot in the main jets and other. Best replace gaskets
> on float bowl, and or any suspect O-rings. Any air leak on a 914 float bowl
> or other can negate ability to maintain between ~2 and ~5 PSI fuel pressure
> over airbox pressure. My gut feeling is a gearbox issue would not happen all
> of a sudden, clogged enrichmnet jet or lean mixture can happen all of a
> sudden. Jet could have been clogged for a while and you didn't notice till
> temp came down. The more alcohol in your fuel, the leaner the mixture, if
> you got a 20% batch..... BTW I have read a while back that for very cold
> weather operations of 91X, you can make enrichment circuit more rich. It was
> in a notice I recieved from Rotax, service bulletin, alert or other. Ripped
> diaphragm or any other leak that can cause a lean mixture will do you no
> good as well. Ron Parigoris
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Rich:
>
> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
> drives. Why you may ask?
> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
> diameter than the gears.
> The procedure is this:
> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
> it from the front of the engine.
> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>
> Barry
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>
>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS
>>> a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>
>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>> vibration.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>>> no-no.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>
>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now.
>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Attachments:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>
>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> =============
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>
>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>
>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno"]
Rotax engines have NO flywheel.
> (and will run smoothly without a prop)
> Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
>
They do - the magneto ring doubles as a flywheel on both the 2 and 4 stroke Rotaxen.
And yes the 2 strokes idle perfectly with no load on them and I would assume the
912 does too.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279553#279553
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
AmphibFlyer wrote:
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the other
hand, the 912/914 Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop and
relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So maybe
it can be done and maybe it can't.
The hazard would be accidentally overspeeding the engine, probably not that they
simply wouldn't run without a load. To turn a prop at 1800 to 2000 rpm still
takes a little power so removing the load completely could be a problem even
at the normal fully idled setting. Either way, at 20grand a pop, yeah... I think
I'd not try to experiment with that ;)
On the 2-strokes, the throttle slides have to be completely bottomed out in order
to idle with no load (it'll get down to 1800 rpm but that's it).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279554#279554
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="AmphibFlyer"]
lucien wrote:
>
> Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must be
in there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These Rotax
engines have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so I hadn't
considered the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear lash. Can't say
I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the time.
>
> What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this condition
in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't been able
to find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch problem.
A regular flywheel is still needed, mostly as a buffer to absorb the variations
in speed of the crank, which would otherwise be very large. With only the prop
via the gearbox as the flywheel, that thing would hammer the gearbox to bits
in nothing flat.......
Rotax probably doesn't describe this as a symptom because it's not always going
to be repeatable. With a different prop that's lighter or maybe even one that's
heavier, the condition may change. a motor with weak springs may start and
run fine in that case.
And if the prop is enormous and heavy enough, the engine may act like that with
perfectly good spring tension (tho it'd have to a huge ginourmous prop most likely
;)).
Instead they describe the torque limits which are better early warning signs to
be checked for anyway. I think you have to be in pretty bad shape before bad
springs cause the symptom your friend's motor is exhibiting.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279556#279556
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
lucien a crit :
>
> They do - the magneto ring doubles as a flywheel on both the 2 and 4 stroke Rotaxen.
>
> And yes the 2 strokes idle perfectly with no load on them and I would assume
the 912 does too.
Lucien,
I'm mystified as to who could have told you such a thing. Are you sure
this person is really a Rotax connaisseur ?
Here is a page with pictures of the little Rotax alternator.
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
How could it's inertia compare with that of the prop ?
Unless one has access to considerable engineering experience with Rotax
engines, it is advisable not to do anything forbidden in the engine manuals.
And better yet, why not just read and follow the book ?
Many many old wife's stories in places where few mechanics really have
Rotax experience.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> Lucien,
>
> I'm mystified as to who could have told you such a thing. Are you sure
> this person is really a Rotax connaisseur ?
> Here is a page with pictures of the little Rotax alternator.
> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
> How could it's inertia compare with that of the prop ?
> Unless one has access to considerable engineering experience with Rotax
> engines, it is advisable not to do anything forbidden in the engine manuals.
> And better yet, why not just read and follow the book ?
> Many many old wife's stories in places where few mechanics really have
> Rotax experience.
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
The rotax flywheel doesn't compare to that of a prop, but it's plenty for the engines
(at least the 2-strokes to my knowledge) to run fine with no load.
My experience with the 2-strokes is direct and not through any connoisseur. I
ran the 503 on my Kolb FSII with the RK-400 clutch, which disengages the engine
from the gearbox below 2400-2500 rpm. No problems with the engine at those rpms
disengaged.
I don't know from experience about the 912, so can only speculate about how it
would run with only the internal flywheel. But I would assume it would run fine,
but don't know that for sure.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279585#279585
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
900 series engines are never run without a prop. It is taught in Rotax schools.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279589#279589
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Roger,
I am sure glad I am a "trunk monkey " and can work on my own experimental
amateur built !!! At least I did attend two Lockwood Rotax schools. I will
be attending the two stroke and 'recurrent" 912 schools at the end of the
month.
This LSA stuff is a real pain in the butt regulation wise.
I had a friend of mine accuse me of going to the "dark side" when I bought
my Kitfox. I bought a small Darth Vader sticker and stuck it on my
airplane. Now I will have to get a "monkey" sticker.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Happy New Year Dick,
Hope all is well?
Those Trunk Monkey's are expensive and they're hard on torque wrenches. [Shocked]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being ones own mechanic. Many owners are
far more knowledgeable than RLSM's or A&P's when talking about their plane. Knowledge
acquisition is an individual thing regardless of our backgrounds. The
article was in the hopes to educate and keep people from getting in trouble or
fined. The whole intent of the original article was education for all. Regardless
of ones creds or background, education is the key to most things in life.
Nothing wrong with the Dark Side it can be much more fun!!!!! [Twisted Evil]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279602#279602
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Happy New Year to you too Roger !
I have flown my Kitfox more than any of the other 14 planes I have owned.
It is a lot more fun! It's not as practical for a cross country but if I want
to do that I 'll jump on a "smoker"( and wait in line forever)
I've been working on airplanes since I was 25 and almost had my A&P, but
had to go to work, so I feel real comfortable doing my own work. We have 3
AI's and at least 5 other A&P's at my field so there is no problem with
expertise or sign off's.I have my CFI so we pretty much swap off services.
Your article was excellent and I agree with you 100%. As I have mentioned
earlier, most of the problems Lockwood has faced with this engine has been
created by A&P's working on them without knowledge of the differences between
them and Lyc/Cont (i.e.: without Rotax training) This was mentioned in the
first day of class. I don't work on the Rotax engine as much as you
do,thus,the refresher course.
Keep the good stuff coming!
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gotsky.com> |
| Subject: | oil vent 9xx series engines |
Hello All,
I am looking to reduce the oil on the belly of my plane that comes from
the vent tube of my 914. I imagine that some have made a simple air/oil
separator? The ones available commercialy are quite pricey and since I
am experimental...
Anyone have a simple design?
Happy New Year
Kevin
Europa XS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oil vent 9xx series engines |
Hi Kevin,
I have the same problem. I have some oil separator designs that the Canard guys
shared with me, but the general consensus was that oil separators, (homemade
or otherwise) don't work that great.
Some of the Canard guys were simply re directing the crank case vent line to point
at the exhaust pipe, so when a drip of oil came out, it fell on the outside
of the exhaust and simply burned off. I am thinking of trying something like
that for my installation.
Cheers, Paul
________________________________
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: oil vent 9xx series engines
Hello All,
I am looking to reduce the oil on the belly of my
plane that comes from the vent tube of my 914. I imagine that some have made a
simple air/oil separator? The ones available commercialy are quite pricey and
since I am experimental...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oil vent 9xx series engines |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="kevann(at)gotsky.com"]Hello All,
I am looking to reduce the oil on the belly of my plane that comes from the vent
tube of my 914. I imagine that some have made a simple air/oil separator?
The ones available commercialy are quite pricey and since I am experimental...
Anyone have a simple design?
Happy New Year
Kevin
Europa XS
> [b]
Just out curiosity, do you know what's causing the venting in the first place?
Don't know about the 914, but my 912ULS only vents a whole bunch in case I've
overfilled the tank or do a lot of unusual attitude flying. I.e. practicing power-on
stalls usually oils up the belly and tail pretty good.....
It should otherwise vent only a very little bit and shouldn't be enough to really
oil the plane up.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279744#279744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oil vent 9xx series engines |
Paul McAllister wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> I have the same problem. I have some oil separator designs that the
> Canard guys shared with me, but the general consensus was that oil
> separators, (homemade or otherwise) don't work that great.
>
> Some of the Canard guys were simply re directing the crank case vent
> line to point at the exhaust pipe, so when a drip of oil came out, it
> fell on the outside of the exhaust and simply burned off. I am
> thinking of trying something like that for my installation.
>
> Cheers, Paul
Hello mate
don't think I'd do that, better to put it inside the exhaust? If you had
a big leak/vent it might catch fire and oil fires are extremely hard to
put out.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | george may <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | oil vent 9xx series engines |
I run my oil tank vent line into a small plastic bottle (with a vent hole i
n it) to catch the venting oil. Seem to work in eliminating th mess on the
fuse
George May
601XL 912s
From: kevann(at)gotsky.com
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: oil vent 9xx series engines
Date: Sat=2C 2 Jan 2010 07:11:27 -0800
Hello All=2C
I am looking to reduce the oil on the belly of my
plane that comes from the vent tube of my 914. I imagine that some have mad
e a
simple air/oil separator? The ones available commercialy are quite pricey a
nd
since I am experimental...
Anyone have a simple design?
Happy New Year
Kevin
Europa XS
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | oil vent 9xx series engines |
Hi! Kevin
Watch out you don't finish up with crank case pressure.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Klinefelter
Sent: 02 January 2010 15:11
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: oil vent 9xx series engines
Hello All,
I am looking to reduce the oil on the belly of my plane that comes from the
vent tube of my 914. I imagine that some have made a simple air/oil
separator? The ones available commercialy are quite pricey and since I am
experimental...
Anyone have a simple design?
Happy New Year
Kevin
Europa XS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oil vent 9xx series enginesoil vent 9xx series |
engines
I once had a KR2 with the VW engine that had the same problem. After much
experimentation I finally fabricated a baby bottle filled with plastic mesh
(the stuff used to scrub dishes in the kitchen sink) The mesh was for the oil
to condense on vs just blowing out the vent hole. I ran the vent tube into
the top of the bottle(made a fitting) drilled a small vent hole on the top
also.On the bottom of the bottle I attached a quick drain(drilled a hole and
just threaded it into the plastic) Make sure the drain is on the backside of
the bottle where most of the oil collects. I then fastened this drain
bottle to the bottom of the firewall with a bracket. Each time I went flying (or
after) I checked the bottle and drained off any collected oil.It worked
perfectly for the three years I had the plane ! No more oil on the belly.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Rick:
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Rich:
>>
>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>> drives. Why you may ask?
>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>> diameter than the gears.
>> The procedure is this:
>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
>> it from the front of the engine.
>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>>
>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>
>>> Rick Girard
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>
>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS
>>>> a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>
>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>>> vibration.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>>>> no-no.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now.
>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>
>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>
>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> =============
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>
>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>
>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>
>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>
>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
Rick
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Rick:
>
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>
> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
> is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
> a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
> vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>> Rich:
>>>
>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>>> diameter than the gears.
>>> The procedure is this:
>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>
>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>
>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>>>> vibration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is
>>>>>> a no-no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in
>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>
>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>
>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>
>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
Without a load on the crankshaft/gearbox, a Rotax 900 has several
problems, but exploding is not one of the them!
what will happen is that above 6000 engine rpm, the speed of the
hydraulic valve lifters is inadequate to completely open and close.
They essentially float out of synch and get bent out of straight by
the cams.
Apparently this situation is worsened by what is unfortunately common
occurrence: In a rush to try their new $20K investment, some builders
too busy to read the manuals try to fire up the engine not only without
the prop load, but also without the throttle cable! From the factory, the
engine is WOT without a cable pulling it back. The engine goes to above
6000 rpm in a heartbeat and no chance for the operator to react before
the engine is damaged.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280060#280060
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Ira
I am curious what failure occurs if you overspeed a 91X?
You mentioned:
"what will happen is that above 6000
engine rpm, the speed of thehydraulic valve lifters is inadequate to
completely open and close.They essentially float out of synch and
get bent out of straight by the cams."
I am not sure what
you said, do the hydraulic valve lifters themselves get bent by overspeed?
I always assumed that the mass of valve train has more inertia than can be
held by the valve springs where the valve lifters are in contact with the
cam (valve float)? Then a valve is left opened where it shouldn't be and a
piston contacts the valve andbends the valve, and probably also the
pushrod? Another question, since the 912S has a different cam grind
than the 912 or 914,does overspeed problemsoccur at the same
RPM as 912 or 914?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
On 11:10 AM 1/4/2010, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
>Then a valve is left opened where it shouldn't be and a piston contacts the valve
and bends the valve, and probably also the pushrod?
For what its worth, In the 912 Line maintenance manual (05-50-00, section 3.3),
the inspections exceeding max RPMs are addressed. Yes, Pushrods are on the "list"
of things to inspect.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Rich:
OK, you have a student here ... Pull out your books and ruler and start
pounding some information into my head.
Where does the 1071 come from?
How is the math done?
Barry
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
> engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
> won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
> cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
> your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
> to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Hi Rick:
>>
>> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>>
>> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
>> is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
>> a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
>> vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
>> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
>> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
>> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
>> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
>> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>>
>>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>>
>>> Rick Girard
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rich:
>>>>
>>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>>>> diameter than the gears.
>>>> The procedure is this:
>>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and
is
>>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly
>>>>>> CLOCKED? If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running
>>>>>> and vibration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is
>>>>>>> a no-no.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in
>>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>
>>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> =
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ron,
It did not occur to me that the cams are different on the different
models.
As for different frequency response of the valve train, sounds like a
factory question. No one else would have an engine closely instrumented
to detect the float and over-sped to destruction. The cams should only
be different in amplitude, not angular change. The float is a
phenomena of frequency response so it should be a function of spring
compliance and push rod inertance. (Hows that for an x engineer)
Happy New Year!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280131#280131
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
It is pointless "clocking" the prop on a Rotax because the prop will
reclock itself continuously as the gearbox steadily alters the relation
between prop and crank.
Graham
On 04/01/2010 16:06, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Rick:
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>
> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion
> engines. It is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming
> engines. When having a prop balanced it is the first thing checked.
> I am taking a course on vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick
> Helmuth and ACES both cover balancing this way. This is done to
> reduce the amount of balance weight required. Yes, you can balance
> without doing a static balance but this just helps. It is like
> balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of weight
> required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
> Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
The crank on the 2.43 ratio gearbox has a 21 tooth gear on the crankshaft
and a 51 tooth on the prop shaft. When the crank turns through on complete
combustion cycle the 51 tooth gear advances only 42 teeth, roughly 60
degrees less than a full revolution.
If you want to look at it in terms of revolutions, for each combustion cycle
the crank gear goes around 2 times and the prop shaft gear goes around
.82353 times.
It was here that Rick went off the rails. The only way I could get back on
track was to do it the bonehead way and make a spreadsheet. It turns out
that when the crank goes through 17 combustion cycles (34 revolutions of the
crank, or 714 teeth) the prop shaft gear has gone around 14 times (714
teeth) at which time the number 1 tooth on booth gears would again be
aligned.
So, sorry for the original miscalculation, the concept was correct but the
math was faulty.
Rick
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:19 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Rich:
>
> OK, you have a student here ... Pull out your books and ruler and start
> pounding some information into my head.
>
> Where does the 1071 come from?
> How is the math done?
>
> Barry
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
>> engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
>> won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
>> cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
>> your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
>> to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Rick:
>>>
>>> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>>>
>>> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines.
>>> It is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When
>>> having a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course
>>> on vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
>>> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
>>> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
>>> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
>>> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
>>> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>>>
>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rich:
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much
>>>>> larger diameter than the gears.
>>>>> The procedure is this:
>>>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio.
>>>>>> How exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and
is
>>>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly
>>>>>>> CLOCKED? If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running
>>>>>>> and vibration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Barry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>>>> SeaRey(at)abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop
>>>>>>>> is a no-no.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub"
in
>>>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">
>>>>>>>> www.howtocrimp.com iption,
>>>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> ========
>> =
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
Ron, The UK Rotax agent procedure for modest overspeeding (between 6000 &
6100 rpm) was to remove the push rods and check them for straightness using
a sort of cradle and a micrometer measuring device. If that is OK no further
checks are needed.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:10 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: What happens if you overspeed a 91X?
>
>
> Hi Ira
> I am curious what failure occurs if you overspeed a 91X?
> You mentioned:
> " what will happen is that above 6000
> engine rpm, the speed of the hydraulic valve lifters is inadequate to
> completely open and close. They essentially float out of synch and
> get bent out of straight by the cams."
> I am not sure what
> you said, do the hydraulic valve lifters themselves get bent by overspeed?
> I always assumed that the mass of valve train has more inertia than can be
> held by the valve springs where the valve lifters are in contact with the
> cam (valve float)? Then a valve is left opened where it shouldn't be and a
> piston contacts the valve and bends the valve, and probably also the
> pushrod? Another question, since the 912S has a different cam grind
> than the 912 or 914, does overspeed problems occur at the same
> RPM as 912 or 914?
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
Hi All,
The push rod check is all that is required IF the overspeed
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280222#280222
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
bob(at)fly-ul.com wrote:
>
> For what its worth, In the 912 Line maintenance manual (05-50-00, section 3.3),
the inspections exceeding max RPMs are addressed. Yes, Pushrods are on the
"list" of things to inspect.
> --
> Bob Comperini
> e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
> WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
Unfortunately the manual leaves out the following step in this case:
- go to bank (with gun)
;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280232#280232
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Delayed New LSA rules |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
Just a little update. Talked to Edsel Ford off the FAA today about the up coming
LSA rule changes that I was originally told was due out mid Dec. Seems that
the rule changes are done and have been sitting on the Director's desk for a while
and they are waiting for him to sign them. No one seems to know what the
hold up is. So it could be days or weeks. When these rules are posted they may
not have an immediate effective date. They could be effective tomorrow or April.
We will have to look at them to see when each effective phase in date occurs.
Here are where the rules will turn up first.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...meset?OpenPage
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280314#280314
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax mechanic near Olympia,WA |
Scott.
You can try Shawn Kelley, a certified Rotax 912-914 service center in
Cottage Grove Or. Phone 541-968-9328
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sdemeyer
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax mechanic near Olympia,WA
My 912UL runs like crap and I have not been able to figure out the problem.
Anyone know of a Rotax guru in the Olympia,WA area?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278906#278906
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | michael baker <mbee1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 / suitable propellor |
I have a Zenair 601HD with a Rotax 912 engine and a 3 blade GSC
ground adjustable prop.
I have just put on a new cowl to help elevate an over heating
problem. The new cowl is
longer than the old cowl which means that I have had to install a 4
inch prop extension.
My GSC prop bolt holes do not match the new extension holes and I am
going to buy a new
prop. I looking at a 3 blade Warp Drive or a 3 blade WhirlWind prop,
both ground adjustable.
I am wondering about the added weight of the prop extension and which
would be the best
prop to use? Any comments on these or any other props would be
appreciated.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Rotax air box for sale |
Bonjour=0AAs I am using the Europa manufactured air box on my aircraft , I
have for sale a totally new Rotax air box .=0AIf interessted mail : jeanphi
lippeneel(at)yahoo.fr=0A=0AJP Neel =0AEuropa F-PSLH=0AGrenoble =0AFrance=0A=0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 / suitable propellor |
Mike,
Also check out the Kiev prop. It is beautiful and light as a feather.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 / suitable propellor |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Mike:
What is the prop extension made from? I ask this because on Old Grumman's
AA-5's the original was steel and to reduce weight and move the CG back a
bit they went to aluminum.
Barry
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:21 PM, michael baker wrote:
>
> I have a Zenair 601HD with a Rotax 912 engine and a 3 blade GSC ground
> adjustable prop.
> I have just put on a new cowl to help elevate an over heating problem. The
> new cowl is
> longer than the old cowl which means that I have had to install a 4 inch
> prop extension.
> My GSC prop bolt holes do not match the new extension holes and I am going
> to buy a new
> prop. I looking at a 3 blade Warp Drive or a 3 blade WhirlWind prop, both
> ground adjustable.
> I am wondering about the added weight of the prop extension and which would
> be the best
> prop to use? Any comments on these or any other props would be appreciated.
> Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 / suitable propellor |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
mbee1(at)mac.com wrote:
> I have a Zenair 601HD with a Rotax 912 engine and a 3 blade GSC
> ground adjustable prop.
> I have just put on a new cowl to help elevate an over heating
> problem. The new cowl is
> longer than the old cowl which means that I have had to install a 4
> inch prop extension.
> My GSC prop bolt holes do not match the new extension holes and I am
> going to buy a new
> prop. I looking at a 3 blade Warp Drive or a 3 blade WhirlWind prop,
> both ground adjustable.
> I am wondering about the added weight of the prop extension and which
> would be the best
> prop to use? Any comments on these or any other props would be
> appreciated.
> Mike
For the extension, I use a Sabre that came with my WD prop I bought for my plane
a while back. They're superb quality and available in a 4" length. If you go
with the WD, you can order the extension with the correct 912 hub and all the
correct hardware along with the prop from WD.
The Sabre requires the drive lugs in your prop flange tho so make sure you have
those installed.
The Warp Drive is about the top of the heap for props for the 912. The Sensenitch
2-blade is becoming popular on a lot of planes, but it's pricey....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280799#280799
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Goodings <goodings(at)yorku.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 - Suitable Propeller |
Our aircraft is a CH601HD with a Rotax 912S with a GSC 3-blade ground
adjustable prop with the long cowl with a 4-inch prop extension. With the
912S (100 HP), we have a 68" prop; I have on my wall the 66" GSC prop for
the 912 (80 HP). The same prop extension has the same holes for either
prop or either engine. Is it possible that your problem can be solved
more cheaply and more easily by getting a different (correct) prop
extension? Personally, I like the GSC props - it is very easy to inspect
the varnished wood for a crack at the prop tips. It happened to us; a
tiny crack appeared (we think it must have picked up a stone). We bought
a new matching blade from GSC; in fact, they quickly shipped us a matched
set of 3 new blades for the price of one - good company.
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Need carb help please |
| From: | "sdemeyer" <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
I rebuilt the carbs on my 912UL and now have a frustrating problem I can't seem
to resolve. I've been pulling my hair out on this for a couple of weeks.
When I start the engine, it runs fine for a minute then starts puking fuel out
the overflow, then starts running like crap. I've triple checked the float level
and the float bracket is exactly parallel as the manual instructs.
The kit I purchased ( from California Air ) included o-rings, gaskets, needle and
main jet and I replaced everything.
I'm tempted to put back the original needles and see what happens.
Have any of you had this problem? How did you fix?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280914#280914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
If you have a fuel boost pump drop the float bowl, turn on the pump and see
if you can stop the flow of fuel by manually pushing the needle valve
against the seat. While you've got it open pull the needle valve out and
look it over with a magnifying glass to see it the needle tip is scarred.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 12:35 PM, sdemeyer wrote:
> scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com>
>
> I rebuilt the carbs on my 912UL and now have a frustrating problem I can't
> seem to resolve. I've been pulling my hair out on this for a couple of
> weeks.
>
> When I start the engine, it runs fine for a minute then starts puking fuel
> out the overflow, then starts running like crap. I've triple checked the
> float level and the float bracket is exactly parallel as the manual
> instructs.
>
> The kit I purchased ( from California Air ) included o-rings, gaskets,
> needle and main jet and I replaced everything.
>
> I'm tempted to put back the original needles and see what happens.
>
> Have any of you had this problem? How did you fix?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280914#280914
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Scott,
After you re-installed the carbs did you mechanically and pneumatically balance
them? It is an absolute have to do item. An out of balance/sync carb setup will
run rough and puke fuel like crazy. Is it hard starting? You may have put the
en-richer circuit in backwards if it is hard to start on top of your problems.
Does the problem clear up if you go up to 4000 rpm?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280955#280955
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Blackmore" <blackmore(at)platinum.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
Yes, replace the needle valve to prove the point after checking it .....D
on
t mix and match, check to see if it is aligned going to the seat and not
hanging up, did the jets come out?
-------Original Message-------
From: Richard Girard
Date: 10/01/2010 3:05:37 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Need carb help please
If you have a fuel boost pump drop the float bowl, turn on the pump and s
ee
if you can stop the flow of fuel by manually pushing the needle valve
against the seat. While you've got it open pull the needle valve out and
look it over with a magnifying glass to see it the needle tip is scarred.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 12:35 PM, sdemeyer wrot
e:
com>
I rebuilt the carbs on my 912UL and now have a frustrating problem I can'
t
seem to resolve. I've been pulling my hair out on this for a couple of we
eks
When I start the engine, it runs fine for a minute then starts puking fue
l
out the overflow, then starts running like crap. I've triple checked the
float level and the float bracket is exactly parallel as the manual
instructs.
The kit I purchased ( from California Air ) included o-rings, gaskets,
needle and main jet and I replaced everything.
I'm tempted to put back the original needles and see what happens.
Have any of you had this problem? How did you fix?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280914#280914
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
| From: | "sdemeyer" <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
Well, I replaced the needles with the old set and the overflow problem stopped.
Kind of weird because the new needle was exactly the same size,
just had a black tip instead of a red tip the original needle had.
Anyhow, I got the motor running OK and was able to do a complete mechanical sync
and pneumatic sync. It still is not running very smooth at idle though and my
carbtune shows a perfect balance. I'm pretty sure I still have a carb issue
so I think I will just send them somewhere to be rebuilt, again. I'm too frustrated
to even look at it anymore!
Has anyone had experience with the Bing Pro Carb shop in KS?
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280961#280961
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
| From: | "sdemeyer" <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
>
> After you re-installed the carbs did you mechanically and pneumatically balance
them? It is an absolute have to do item. An out of balance/sync carb setup
will run rough and puke fuel like crazy. Is it hard starting? You may have put
the en-richer circuit in backwards if it is hard to start on top of your problems.
Does the problem clear up if you go up to 4000 rpm?
I did a preliminary sync because the carbs would puke before I could get started
with my carbtune. The engine ran OK for the first minute and started fine. I
quadruple checked the enricher circuit and it is installed correct. After I replaced
the needle with original, throttle range is good except the idle ( 2000
- 1800 rpm) is rough.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280962#280962
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
Scott,
I had the same problem you did...Exactly ! I too put in the new needles
and it too puked fuel out the carbs and made a mess. I then removed the new
needles comparing them to the old and I believe the springs in the new ones
are too strong (at least it felt that way) anyway the new needles are in now
stored in my parts case and I am running perfectly fine on the old ones with
no problems and that is the way it will stay. This happen to me about a year
ago when I was trying to upgrade my rubber parts due to age.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott DeMeyer <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
Well, that puts me at ease a little! I wonder if, because my carbs are very
early model ( 1998 ) if the seats or floats are different than a newer car
b?
--- On Mon, 1/11/10, catz631(at)aol.com wrote:
From: catz631(at)aol.com <catz631(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Need carb help please
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 7:33 AM
=0A =0AScott,=0A-I had the same problem you did...Exactly ! I too put in
the new needles and it too puked fuel out the carbs and made a mess. I then
removed the new needles comparing them to the old and I believe the spring
s in the new ones are too strong (at least it felt that way) anyway the new
needles are in now stored in my parts case and I am running perfectly fine
on the old ones with no problems and that is the way it will stay. This ha
ppen to me about a year ago when I was trying to upgrade my rubber parts du
e to age.=0A---------------------
-------------------------
---------------- Dick Maddux=0A----
-------------------------
-------------------------
-------- 912 UL=0A-------------
-------------------------
-------------------------
Milton,Fl =0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but
it is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the
idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once.
I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5
blades backward. Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it again. The
next time it turned backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine revolutions. I
thought I might back into my parking spot! One more shot on the start, oil
pressure looked normal then it shut down normally. Now I already know that I am
the only guy in the country to have this problem but still, it is a bit
perplexing. Other factors :(1) my regular grade fuel is about a month old (2)
the cht was a little warmer on shutdown although well in the green.( 200) The
engine does not do this all the time and usually switching to 93 octane
seems to stop this (which I will do) even though this engine is supposed to
burn regular. In each of the prior cases of this happening (about 4 times),I
have pulled the valve covers and checked the valve clearances to insure no air
in the lifters resulting in possible cam damage. The clearances have all
been normal, no metal in the filter, and no metal in the oil sampling. The
engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two
guys in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost
unspin itself .This statement is not really true as two other guys on the Team
Kitfox forum have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine
because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right
tool to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they
can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the
filter.(per my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter
with my hand to put the oil filter remover on and the filter just spun with
little to no pressure! It could have come off or loosened enough in flight to
loose all the oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil change
procedure,including filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI right in
front of me. I triple checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also
torque mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
keep a check on yours.
Dick
Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | re re re Rtax engines won't start |
I just read today's output on The Rotax digest. Doubtless it was of interest
to most of us - perhaps a hundred followers.
Unfortunately it seems to have become a lazy habit to just reply to a whole
history of exchanges instead of applying one previous topic. The result is
today's hundred readers was forced to scroll unnecessarily through 2072 (two
thousand and seventy two) excess lines instead of perhaps twenty.
Imagine the waste of net space, let alone the total time waste. The methods
have been scrupulously explained by Matt in the regularly-distributed rules
of play. Time to review?
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="Dick Maddux"]Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime
thing but it is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold weather
and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant (CHT) and
190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the idle to about
1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once. I forgot
to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5 blades backward.
Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it again. The next time it turned
backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine revolutions. I thought I might back
into my parking spot! One more shot on the start, oil pressure looked normal
then it shut down normally. Now I already know that I am the only guy in the
country to have this problem but still, it is a bit perplexing. Other factors
:(1) my regular grade fuel is about a month old (2) the cht was a little warmer
on shutdown although well in the green.( 200) The engine does not do this
all the time and usually switching to 93 octane seems to stop this (which I will
do) even though this engine is supposed to burn regular. In each of the prior
cases of this happening (about 4 times),I have pulled the valve covers and
checked the valve clearances to insure no air in the lifters resulting in possible
cam damage. The clearances have all been normal, no metal in the filter,
and no metal in the oil sampling. The engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two guys
in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost unspin itself
.This statement is not really true as two other guys on the Team Kitfox forum
have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right tool to
loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they can be
a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the filter.(per
my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter with my hand
to put the oil filter remover onand the filter just spun with little to no pressure!
It could have come off or loosened enough in flight to loose all the
oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil change procedure,including
filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI right in front of me. I triple
checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also torque
mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to keep
a check on yours.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
> [b]
Sounds like cheap gas to me. Just because it says Bill & Ted's Excellent gas on
the pump doesn't mean it's good. I got a tank of some cheap stuff a while back
(still a 91 octane premium gas) and I got the occasional dieseling on shutdown
too (912ULS). I drained the tank and tried some gas from a different station
with no problems.
Try a different station and/or brand of regular gas and see what happens there.
The fact that higher octane gas fixes the problem would seem to be the smoking
gun.
On the oil filter, Rotax says to go 3/4 of a turn down after the gasket makes contact
with the face of the pump. That has never been tight enough with any filter
I've ever used including the Rotax filter. Every time there's a substantial
leak after the initial run up (again even with the Rotax filter).
Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see leaks.
Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular wrench that
fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips) even when I
was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the filter to
get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the other hand to
prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil pump).....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281181#281181
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl" <b.carl(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re:Filter Removal Tool |
List
I've collected a half dozen filter tools during the years but for the last
ten years I always reach for one that is made of a short piece of square
tubing attached to a loop of nylon strapping. The square tube fits perfectly
over a 1/2" ratchet and can be used with an extension. I use it to install
and remove filters on the plane and cars, and if careful, without damage. I
always witness mark and date the filter with a permanent marker.
I'm pretty sure I bought it at Princess Auto or Canadian Tire.
Carl
R912ul
> During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right
> tool to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that
> they can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety
> wire the filter.(> I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp
> around it and also torque mark it.
> I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
> keep a check on yours.
>
> Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see
> leaks.
>
> Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular
> wrench that fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips)
> even when I was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
>
> I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the
> filter to get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the
> other hand to prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil
> pump).....
>
> LS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Dick:
I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long
as there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting
into the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it
could ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your
case.
So, my questions to the group are:
1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
Barry
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
> Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but
> it is here again!
> I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
> weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
> (CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
> the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
> once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
> 4-5 blades backward.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter Removal Tool |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
The filter should not be so difficult to unscrew, as the Rotax
manual specifies that it should be turned only a partial turn past
finger tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281213#281213
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
You guys may want to double check the numbers n those needles and main jets. If
you mistakenly put one in for an 80 hp for 100 hp or the other way around it
won't run right. Make sure the kit that is sent you is the right one for the correct
HP. (80 or 100) You can't tell just by looking at a distance you need to
look at the numbers stamped on the sides of the part.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281214#281214
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Barry,
There is no mixture control on a standard Rotax engine installation. The shutdown
method recommended in the book is to set the throttle to idle and turn off
the ignition switches. The Rotax doesn't really have "mags" as it has a CDI
(Capacitive Discharge Ignition). Though most folks still call them "mag" switches
from long habit with aircraft engines.
Ignition timing is controlled by a set of powerful magnets fixed on the flywheel
as they pass induction pickups fixed on the engine case. It's all fixed and
can not be altered.
1400 RPM is slower than the recommended 1800 RPM idle. If you idle very much below
1800 RPM you will beat the reduction gears to death in short order.
Dick,
Sounds like a bad batch of gasoline to me, well below the recommended 91 octane,
that is igniting under compression in a hot engine. Your experience with higher
octane making the dieseling go away sure seems to point to it anyway. I'm
surprised there are no problems with engine knock/ping.
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jan 12, 2010, at 17:12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Dick:
>
> I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long as
there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting into
the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it could
ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your case.
>
> So, my questions to the group are:
> 1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
> 2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
> Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
> I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold weather
and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant (CHT) and
190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the idle to
about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once. I forgot
to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5 blades backward.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
You may have a slightly rich condition which allows for detonation on
stopping causing the engine to run backward. I've seen it in some cars and
increasing the octane has always cured it.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 12, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: engine turning backward at shutdown
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
4-5 blades backward. Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it
again. The next time it turned backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine
revolutions. I thought I might back into my parking spot! One more shot on
the start, oil pressure looked normal then it shut down normally. Now I
already know that I am the only guy in the country to have this problem but
still, it is a bit perplexing. Other factors :(1) my regular grade fuel is
about a month old (2) the cht was a little warmer on shutdown although well
in the green.( 200) The engine does not do this all the time and usually
switching to 93 octane seems to stop this (which I will do) even though this
engine is supposed to burn regular. In each of the prior cases of this
happening (about 4 times),I have pulled the valve covers and checked the
valve clearances to insure no air in the lifters resulting in possible cam
damage. The clearances have all been normal, no metal in the filter, and no
metal in the oil sampling. The engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two
guys in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost
unspin itself .This statement is not really true as two other guys on the
Team Kitfox forum have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine
because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right tool
to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they
can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the
filter.(per my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter
with my hand to put the oil filter remover on and the filter just spun with
little to no pressure! It could have come off or loosened enough in flight
to loose all the oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil
change procedure,including filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI
right in front of me. I triple checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also
torque mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
keep a check on yours.
Dick
Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
I had a similar experience with gasoline in my Subaru (car). I bought gas
at really low prices at a reserve in Nova Scotia. To say the car didn't
like it would be an understatement. It burped and backfired chugged and did
the whole gambit before I was able to get some "Brand Name" gas into the
tank. That doesn't sound too bad until you take into consideration the EFI
is supposed to comphensate for all that kind of thing. Your 912 without the
EFI and associated paraphernalia wouldn't stand a chance with cheap or low
octane fuel.
Noel
Sounds like cheap gas to me. Just because it says Bill & Ted's Excellent gas
on the pump doesn't mean it's good. I got a tank of some cheap stuff a while
back (still a 91 octane premium gas) and I got the occasional dieseling on
shutdown too (912ULS). I drained the tank and tried some gas from a
different station with no problems.
Try a different station and/or brand of regular gas and see what happens
there. The fact that higher octane gas fixes the problem would seem to be
the smoking gun.
On the oil filter, Rotax says to go 3/4 of a turn down after the gasket
makes contact with the face of the pump. That has never been tight enough
with any filter I've ever used including the Rotax filter. Every time
there's a substantial leak after the initial run up (again even with the
Rotax filter).
Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see
leaks.
Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular
wrench that fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips)
even when I was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the filter
to get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the other
hand to prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil pump).....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281181#281181
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
Yes, because there is no mixture control on the bing carbs... BTW some
early Cubs had their mixture controls wired in place under the cowl so again
they had to be stopped by shutting down the mags.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 12, 2010 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: engine turning backward at shutdown
Dick:
I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long
as there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting
into the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it
could ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your
case.
So, my questions to the group are:
1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
Barry
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
4-5 blades backward.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter Removal Tool |
| From: | pjeffers(at)talktalk.net |
=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: rampil <i
ra.rampil(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, 12
Jan 2010 23:25=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Filter Removal
rampil(at)gmail.com>=0A=0AThe filter should not be so difficult to
unscrew, as the Rotax=0Amanual specifies that it should be tur
ned only a partial turn past=0Afinger tight.=0A=0A--------=0AIra N
224XS=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matr
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================
=================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter Removal Tool |
| From: | pjeffers(at)talktalk.net |
=0A The latest instruction re tightening the filter is to sc
rew it on till the rubber seal makes contact with the hous
ing and then to tighten a further 270 degrees.=0A=0APete=0A=0A
=0A=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: rampil <ira.rampil@gmail
.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, 12 Jan 2010
23:25=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Filter Removal Tool=0A=0A=0A--
m>=0A=0AThe filter should not be so difficult to unscrew, as
the Rotax=0Amanual specifies that it should be turned only a
partial turn past=0Afinger tight.=0A=0A--------=0AIra N224XS=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtop
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================0A
===========================
============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
It is good to hear that some of you guys have had the same problem. I
figured I wasn't the only one! I am going to pour in some octane booster in my
remaining gas. I did that once before and it seemed to work. The gas I
originally purchased came from Shell but I guess, as all the magazine articles
suggest, it doesn't last long anymore before it looses its octane.
Dick Maddux
Rotax 912
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Smith" <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL for sale |
Hi Jean-philippe,
I saw your adverisment for your Rotax 912UL and was wondering if you
still have it For Sale, or if in fact you have sold it by now as it was
a few weeks ago!
I have a Europa (classic mono) currently with a Subaru engine and am
wishing to upgrade it to a Rotax. Like you I would really love to have
the 912 S but can't afford one yet!!
Best Regards,
Jon Smith
(York, UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: NEEL Jean Philippe
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com ; europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:12 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 UL for sale
Hi all,
I intend to buy a new 912ULS so my 912UL is for sale.
912UL N=C2=B0 4 400 976 bought at Europa with kit N=C2=B0273 in 1996.
1200 hours flight TBO 1500h
Always hangared
All maintenance in accordance with certified aircraft rules.
Every operation registred in engine log book
All Rotax airworthiness directives applied.
Slipper clutch
Oil tank
Water expansion bottle
Temperature and pressure oil senders
2 water senders
Complete exhaust system.
Price : 5000=82=AC
Jean-philippe Neel
Grenoble France
Jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
RON of ethanol is 116 as it evaporates form your gas the RON will plummet!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 13, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: engine turning backward at shutdown
It is good to hear that some of you guys have had the same problem. I
figured I wasn't the only one! I am going to pour in some octane booster in
my remaining gas. I did that once before and it seemed to work. The gas I
originally purchased came from Shell but I guess, as all the magazine
articles suggest, it doesn't last long anymore before it looses its octane.
Dick Maddux
Rotax 912
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Smith" <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL for sale |
Sorry folks - didn't mean for this message to go to the whole list!
Realised my mistake when I received it myself!
However, if anyone does have a second hand 912 or 912S (UK or near
continent) for sale, I'd be interested to hear from you!!!
Cheers, Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Smith
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 UL for sale
Hi Jean-philippe,
I saw your adverisment for your Rotax 912UL and was wondering if you
still have it For Sale, or if in fact you have sold it by now as it was
a few weeks ago!
I have a Europa (classic mono) currently with a Subaru engine and am
wishing to upgrade it to a Rotax. Like you I would really love to have
the 912 S but can't afford one yet!!
Best Regards,
Jon Smith
(York, UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: NEEL Jean Philippe
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com ; europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:12 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 UL for sale
Hi all,
I intend to buy a new 912ULS so my 912UL is for sale.
912UL N=C2=B0 4 400 976 bought at Europa with kit N=C2=B0273 in
1996.
1200 hours flight TBO 1500h
Always hangared
All maintenance in accordance with certified aircraft rules.
Every operation registred in engine log book
All Rotax airworthiness directives applied.
Slipper clutch
Oil tank
Water expansion bottle
Temperature and pressure oil senders
2 water senders
Complete exhaust system.
Price : 5000=82=AC
Jean-philippe Neel
Grenoble France
Jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="Dick Maddux"]It is good to hear that some of you guys have had the same
problem. I figured I wasn't the only one! I am going to pour in some octane booster
in my remaining gas. I did that once before and it seemed to work. The
gas I originally purchased came from Shell but I guess, as all the magazine articles
suggest, it doesn't last long anymore before it looses its octane.
Dick Maddux
Rotax 912
> [b]
Since I use E10 now (that's all that's available besides 100LL), I don't let gas
sit in the tank much longer than about 2 weeks at the very outside. And usually
I start robbing gas out of the plane with the siphon once a week goes by and
I don't get to fly, and it goes in the pickup.
Personally, if I didn't remember how old the gas actually was, I'd drain it out
and burn it in the veehickle (to take me to the gas station for new gas for the
plane)....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281327#281327
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
Those who have had the engine driven fuel pump fail on a 912S...what
were the indications before the failure, if any?
The pressure on mine is fluctuating between the normal 5 psi and about 4
psi. I have checked all the normal suspects.
thx Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Joe,
The normal fuel pressure is anywhere from 2.2 (low) -5.8 (max) psi. Most run from
3.2-4.6 psi. If yours has been higher that's ok, but a fuel pressure between
3.1 - 4.6 is very normal. Mine is only 3.4 - 3.6 psi. The other thing is where
is your fuel pressure sensor mounted? Do you have a fuel pressure dampener
in line between the sender and the panel? If your fuel pressure sender is mounted
on top of the fuel cross over line between the carbs then vibration is your
enemy and many people are remote mounting them which is Rotax approved. One
last thing are you a high wing or low wing and are you running an electric auxiliary
pump?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281349#281349
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
When you leave ethanol gas sitting in your plane if you have epoxy resin
tanks that is when you can start having problems with your tanks being
dissolved by the ethanol.
The part about ethanol evaporating you already know. The longer the gas
sits in the plane the more moisture it can remove from the air. The problem
with that is it also increases your chances of a phase separation when the
fuel cools at altitude. For what it's worth I'd drain what fuel is in the
tanks after every flight and only use as fresh as I could get fuel in the
plane.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
Sent: January 13, 2010 5:20 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: engine turning backward at shutdown
[quote="Dick Maddux"]It is good to hear that some of you guys have had the
same problem. I figured I wasn't the only one! I am going to pour in some
octane booster in my remaining gas. I did that once before and it seemed to
work. The gas I originally purchased came from Shell but I guess, as all the
magazine articles suggest, it doesn't last long anymore before it looses its
octane.
Dick Maddux
Rotax 912
> [b]
Since I use E10 now (that's all that's available besides 100LL), I don't let
gas sit in the tank much longer than about 2 weeks at the very outside. And
usually I start robbing gas out of the plane with the siphon once a week
goes by and I don't get to fly, and it goes in the pickup.
Personally, if I didn't remember how old the gas actually was, I'd drain it
out and burn it in the veehickle (to take me to the gas station for new gas
for the plane)....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281327#281327
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Mike Hoffman" <mhoffman9(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
Yes, my pump failed at 8 hours. It was leaking fuel from the pump body vent hole.
I found fuel stain on the front of my cowl and engine. I was told by lockwood
aviation that is a problem with the pumps and that 1 out of 4 are bad. I have
been waiting for my new pump since before Christmas and was told it could be
1 or 2 more weeks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281402#281402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
Hi mike
You can obtain a better quality pump from
http://www.billetpump.com
TBO of more than 2800 hours
ivor
---- Mike Hoffman wrote:
>
> Yes, my pump failed at 8 hours. It was leaking fuel from the pump body vent hole.
I found fuel stain on the front of my cowl and engine. I was told by lockwood
aviation that is a problem with the pumps and that 1 out of 4 are bad. I
have been waiting for my new pump since before Christmas and was told it could
be 1 or 2 more weeks.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281402#281402
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
>Hi Joe,
>The normal fuel pressure is anywhere from 2.2 (low) -5.8 (max) psi.
Most run from
3.2-4.6 psi. If yours has been higher that's ok, but a fuel pressure
between
3.1 - 4.6 is very normal. Mine is only 3.4 - 3.6 psi. The other thing
is where
is your fuel pressure sensor mounted? Do you have a fuel pressure
dampener
in line between the sender and the panel? If your fuel pressure sender
is mounted
on top of the fuel cross over line between the carbs then vibration is
your
enemy and many people are remote mounting them which is Rotax approved.
One
last thing are you a high wing or low wing and are you running an
electric auxiliary
pump?
--------
Roger Lee
Thanks for the replies and info...it's not so much the psi the pump is
putting out as the fact that the psi is fluctuating (between 4.2 and 5.0
psi). My gauge is a direct read gauge with the pressure pickoff just
upstream of the left carb. The plane is a Zenith 701. Yes I do have a
backup electric pump that puts out 3 psi; and also have gravity feed as
long as the pitch attitude isn't too high. The fluctuating pressure
reading is unaffected by the electric pump being either on or off, as
expected, as long as the pressure is above the 3 psi the electric pump
puts out. The thing quit on me last week in level flight straight and
level...fuel pressure was zero at the time of the stoppage with both
pumps on, indicating either out of gas, stopped up vents or a blockage
or leak somewhere. After getting it on the ground, the vents were open
and I stuck the tanks and both of them had enough fuel to feed in level
flight. I pulled the hood and leak checked it with the electric pump, no
leaks.Pulled the fuel filter and cleaned it, it was a little grungy and
is suspect...ran it up a while on the ground and all was normal with
steady pressure, was able to get it the 3 miles to the strip altho the
fuel pressure started fluctuating enroute. Have troubleshot everything
and haven't found anything but the fuel filter so far...but am wondering
if there have been instances of a failing engine driven pump possibly
causing some sort of blockage in the pump while failing and also
wondering if fluctuating pressure is a known early warning of impending
failure with this pump. It should have gravity fed unless the fuel
filter was indeed blocked or the pump was somehow blocked
Thanks again
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Joe,
Even if the mechanical pump failed the electric pump should have been more than
adequate. The mechanical pumps fail open. So if the mechanical pump quit and
you still ran dry then I think you have a blockage somewhere or for some reason
a vent issue. A blockage can move back and forth within a line depending on
fuel demand. At high flow times it flows to a choke point, when little fuel is
on demand or the engine is shut off it can move or float away from the choke
point until you demand a lot of flow again. I would double check my vents and
flow fuel through all my fuel lines into a can or something to flush them. I would
also check my carb float bowls as they can have tattletale signs of crud.
This doesn't sound like a pump problem.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281422#281422
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
>Even if the mechanical pump failed the electric pump should have been
more than
adequate.
Thanks. Agreed. Also, it should have gravity fed.
>The mechanical pumps fail open
This is what I was looking for. Thanks for that info. I have gravity
feed checked everything up to the mechanical pump and am just waiting
for the hangar to warm up and will do that this morning.
The pressure fluctuation is attitude related...when lowering the nose
the pressure increases from about 4.2 to about 4.7 or 4.8. Makes me
think there is something floating around in there that is blocking feed
but have checked everything from the mechanical pump back and it's all
clean. The vents are definitely open, there's no water in anything.
As an aside, I am wondering about not running a mechanical pump now,
what with gravity feed available. I could install 2 electric pumps for
redundancy for steep takeoffs/climb outs where it wouldn't gravity feed
and block off the mechanical pump pad.I should be able to get home on
gravity feed if it total electric fails...do you know of any problems
with blocking it off and not running the pump?
Thanks again
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
There are people that do not have the mechanical pump and have a solid gasket/plate
over the opening and only run electric pumps. I saw a 914 like this the other
day on a Zenith 701. Way over powered.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281471#281471
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
Well after fooling with this thing all morning I learned a few things
that I thought I would pass along...
It's a Zenith 701 high wing with a 912s. It should gravity feed and does
but after going thru the fuel valve, fuel filter, electric pump and
mechanical pump there is so little flow at the carb that I now don't
consider it to be gravity feed capable. The stream out of the line just
before the carb is tiny, less than the diameter of a pencil lead...and
weak. Some of you older guys might know what I'm talking about here.
The filter is one of the i think it's a purolator ones with the glass
bowl and cast chrome body and a plastic screen inside. They've been
around forever and I always liked them for certain apps. But the cast
body means rather thick walled nipples and a small flow hole, further
restricting the flow. I subbed in a length of 1/4 OD .035 wall tube for
the filter and the flow is still too weak for comfort for this old
guy...
FWIW
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
At 09:05 AM 1/14/2010, you wrote:
>The filter is one of the i think it's a purolator ones with the
>glass bowl and cast chrome body and a plastic screen inside.
I've had problems with these "gumming up". Try a new filter element
and see if the flow is any different. Don't know why they blocked but
I had it happen the three of them.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Hazen <jlhazen(at)copper.net> |
Can an LSA Repairman do annual inspections on an SLSA?
Jim Hazen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
If you took the 16 hour course (LSARI), no. If you took the 120 hour course
(LSARM), yes.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Jim Hazen wrote:
>
> Can an LSA Repairman do annual inspections on an SLSA?
> Jim Hazen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Hazen <jlhazen(at)copper.net> |
Can someone else with a LSARM certificate do an annual on my plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:51
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Annual
If you took the 16 hour course (LSARI), no. If you took the 120 hour course
(LSARM), yes.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Jim Hazen wrote:
>
> Can an LSA Repairman do annual inspections on an SLSA?
> Jim Hazen
>
>
[The entire original message is not included]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Joe,
I'm with Guy. First thing is toss the old filter element. Then go back at the start
of the flow at the fuel tank and start finding out why it is such a weak
flow. If I open my gasolator my fuel just pours out and a solid stream which is
before the pump. Then pop off the float bowls and see what kind of flow there
is at that point. Start at point "A" and work you way through the system until
you can say this is my choke point or obstruction. I bet along the way you'll
find something. Is this something that just started out of the blue?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281507#281507
________________________________________________________________________________
On 11:03 AM 1/14/2010, Jim Hazen wrote:
>
>Can someone else with a LSARM certificate do an annual on my plane.
Yes, if your plane is certificated as an E-LSA, or S-LSA (and the repairman has
the appropriate category/class.. airplane vs weightshift, etc)
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Guys,
If you have an ELSA only you, the owner, with the 16 hr course can do your own
annual condition inspection. If you or someone else has the 120 hr RLSM-A then
you can do yours or anyone else's whether it is ELSA or SLSA. You have to own
the plane if you take the 16 hr. course for an ELSA. Someone else with the 16
hr. course can not do your inspection. When you finish the 16 hr. course you
have to send paperwork into the FAA and get listed for that plane you own. You
can only be listed for these approvals if you own the plane. You could own 4
ELSA planes and so long as you have the 16 hr. course and have them listed with
the FAA then you could inspect all 4. If you do not have either course then
you can not do your inspection on an ELSA or SLSA and need either an RLSM-A or
an A&P. For an SLSA an A&P must have a Rotax class to be legal to work on a Rotax
engine if the plane Mfg. says follow the Rotax manual for the inspection
which most do.
So everyone is on the same page a Light Sport Repairman with a maint. rating should
sign it in the log as: RLSM-A (airplane) or RLSM-WS (weight shift) or RLSM-PP
(powered parachute) which ever is applicable for your credentials.
On an ELSA plane as with a regular experimental anyone can do work other than an
inspection.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281517#281517
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
Hi Roger
I have a 914 with electric pumps, but if you remove the blanking plate you will
find a fuel pump Cam to drive a mechanical pump,
ivor
---- Roger Lee wrote:
>
> There are people that do not have the mechanical pump and have a solid gasket/plate
over the opening and only run electric pumps. I saw a 914 like this the
other day on a Zenith 701. Way over powered.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281471#281471
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
Thanks guys
I have been thru the fuel plumbing twice now and in some areas 3 times.
I had hoped to find something definite. The loss of flow begins in the
climb from the cockpit floor to the mechanical fuel pump(that is a long
uninterrupted run of 1/4 ID tubing that I have taken apart and blown
thru 3 times, each time giving it a final check by blowing thru it with
my mouth...it is clear, no kinks, no obstructions) and gets increasingly
weak from the floor forward. There is no definite choke point but looks
to be a gradual and natural loss of flow from I guess distance from the
tank, friction of the flow thru the lines and the climb of the lines and
resulting loss of head pressure. By the time it gets to the carbs it is
really weak, as reported earlier. I realize this sounds theoretically
incorrect, and I would be skeptical if I wasn't the one that has seen it
and is reporting it. There is full flow at every point prior to that run
of tubing where the line starts its climb. As a final check I hooked up
a fresh clear line at the point where the loss of flow begins and held
it outside the plane at varying heights beginning at floor level and
gradually raised it to mechanical pump level...there was a definite loss
of flow as the test tube was raised, corresponding to what I saw with
the installed line.
Come to think of it, all of the gravity flow planes I have ever flown
had a bottom mounted carb with no climbs in the lines. I've got plenty
of flow at the bottom
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, with an LSARM (Light Sport Aircraft Repairman Maintenance) rating the
certificate holder can work on any E-LSA or S-LSA aircraft for which he/she
is rated. As an example I am rated for airplanes, weight shift control
aircraft, and powered parachutes. I can work on any of them (for the SLSA's
it also depends on who the manufacturers maintenance manual says can work on
their aircraft), but I couldn't work on a gyrocopter or sailplane even if
the manufacturer allows an LSARM.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Jim Hazen wrote:
>
> Can someone else with a LSARM certificate do an annual on my plane.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:51
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Annual
>
> If you took the 16 hour course (LSARI), no. If you took the 120 hour course
> (LSARM), yes.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Jim Hazen wrote:
>
> >
> > Can an LSA Repairman do annual inspections on an SLSA?
> > Jim Hazen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [The entire original message is not included]
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Joe,
Read my last comment, maybe it should be up front.
You may want to re-plumb up to the mechanical pump. I use 8 mm (5/16) line up to
the pump then it is reduced down. I would use at least 5/16 from every where
up to the pump. 1/4 with a long run can be too small. If you look at a Rotax
fuel pump the line in port is bigger than the line out port. This is a fairly
standard fuel line setup. I know some use 1/4" all the way through, but it isn't
supposed to be that way if you read Rotax writings. Larger up to the pump then
reduce it down to the carbs.
You may want to buy a cheap pressure gauge from 0-10 psi and put this in line before
the carbs and check the pressure. That will give you some more info.
My other questions are how many hours on the engine and how many hours on the carbs
since a rebuild or tear down inspection? You didn't say if this is a new
issue after many hours of run time or has been an issue up front?
One last thought or maybe it should be one of the first thoughts. Do you have a
recirculation line back to your gascolator or tanks. If you happen to get a vapor
lock in the right place the pressure will drop to zero. These pumps can't
pump air. The start of vapor lock will mimic these symptoms.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281538#281538
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
Hi Joe,
>Read my last comment, maybe it should be up front.
>You may want to re-plumb up to the mechanical pump. I use 8 mm (5/16)
line up to
the pump then it is reduced down. I would use at least 5/16 from every
where
up to the pump. 1/4 with a long run can be too small. If you look at a
Rotax
fuel pump the line in port is bigger than the line out port. This is a
fairly
standard fuel line setup. I know some use 1/4" all the way through, but
it isn't
supposed to be that way if you read Rotax writings. Larger up to the
pump then
reduce it down to the carbs.
Understand. I saw the bigger inlet port today when I was checking
things. I am also thinking of a way to route the lines so they don't
have to climb from the floor to the pump
>You may want to buy a cheap pressure gauge from 0-10 psi and put this
in line before
the carbs and check the pressure. That will give you some more info.
Right. I have that now...it's plumbed in just upstream of the left carb.
A direct reading gauge. That's how I got all the pressure
readings/fluctuations
>My other questions are how many hours on the engine and how many hours
on the carbs
since a rebuild or tear down inspection? You didn't say if this is a new
issue after many hours of run time or has been an issue up front?
The engine/carbs have 160 hours since new. No problems at all til the
failure last week. Carbs have never been into.
>One last thought or maybe it should be one of the first thoughts. Do
you have a
recirculation line back to your gascolator or tanks. If you happen to
get a vapor
lock in the right place the pressure will drop to zero. These pumps
can't
pump air. The start of vapor lock will mimic these symptoms.
No return line. On the day of the failure it was about 35 degrees and
running avgas. Had been airborne for about an hour.
I flew it about an hour today after checking everything. No pressure
fluctuations or problems of any kind. Ran fine. I do believe it was the
fuel filter now. That is the only thing I found that might have been it.
The big thing I think I learned from this is that I don't consider it to
be able to gravity feed as it is now. I would encourage others running
high wing planes that you think will gravity feed in event of pump
failure to check the flow at the carb inlets if you haven't already
done so. After checking that I would have grounded mine if I didn't have
an electric backup pump.
Roger and others...thanks for all the info and I will definitely keep it
all in mind as I try to improve the fuel system...I would like to plumb
it w/o a low spot in the line routing but that may be difficult w/o
interfering with the 701 door opening. Thinking.
Thx again
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701(at)internet.is> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
Hello Joe.
I also have the Zenith 701 and had the vented fuel caps provided with
the kit from Zenith. The fuel was limited when the aircraft was
airborne due to low pressure created on top of the wing. I had to weld
a tube facing forward into the caps to help with the flow, to increase
the pressure inside the wing tanks.
It has not effected the engine run, because i have the header tank D
type installed and the mechanical pumps is sufficient for feeding the
engine, but I have an electrical pump to transfer the fuel from the
wing tanks to the header tank. Just need to get the flow started with
the electrical pump and can turn it off as soon the flow starts. But
most often leave it on to speed up the fuel transfer.
Just an idea.
Best of luck finding the problem.
Johann G.
Iceland.
On 14.1.2010, at 20:44, Joe Spencer wrote:
> Thanks guys
> I have been thru the fuel plumbing twice now and in some areas 3
> times. I had hoped to find something definite. The loss of flow
> begins in the climb from the cockpit floor to the mechanical fuel
> pump(that is a long uninterrupted run of 1/4 ID tubing that I have
> taken apart and blown thru 3 times, each time giving it a final
> check by blowing thru it with my mouth...it is clear, no kinks, no
> obstructions) and gets increasingly weak from the floor forward.
> There is no definite choke point but looks to be a gradual and
> natural loss of flow from I guess distance from the tank, friction
> of the flow thru the lines and the climb of the lines and resulting
> loss of head pressure. By the time it gets to the carbs it is really
> weak, as reported earlier. I realize this sounds theoretically
> incorrect, and I would be skeptical if I wasn't the one that has
> seen it and is reporting it. There is full flow at every point prior
> to that run of tubing where the line starts its climb. As a final
> check I hooked up a fresh clear line at the point where the loss of
> flow begins and held it outside the plane at varying heights
> beginning at floor level and gradually raised it to mechanical pump
> level...there was a definite loss of flow as the test tube was
> raised, corresponding to what I saw with the installed line.
> Come to think of it, all of the gravity flow planes I have ever
> flown had a bottom mounted carb with no climbs in the lines. I've
> got plenty of flow at the bottom
>
> Joe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
> I would like to plumb it w/o a low spot in the line routing but that may
be difficult w/o interfering with the 701 door opening
Some 701 builders have run the lines forward at the wing root and down along
the steel tubes to the firewall.
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Spencer
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Fuel pump failure
Hi Joe,
>Read my last comment, maybe it should be up front.
>You may want to re-plumb up to the mechanical pump. I use 8 mm (5/16) line
up to
the pump then it is reduced down. I would use at least 5/16 from every where
up to the pump. 1/4 with a long run can be too small. If you look at a Rotax
fuel pump the line in port is bigger than the line out port. This is a
fairly
standard fuel line setup. I know some use 1/4" all the way through, but it
isn't
supposed to be that way if you read Rotax writings. Larger up to the pump
then
reduce it down to the carbs.
Understand. I saw the bigger inlet port today when I was checking things. I
am also thinking of a way to route the lines so they don't have to climb
from the floor to the pump
>You may want to buy a cheap pressure gauge from 0-10 psi and put this in
line before
the carbs and check the pressure. That will give you some more info.
Right. I have that now...it's plumbed in just upstream of the left carb. A
direct reading gauge. That's how I got all the pressure
readings/fluctuations
>My other questions are how many hours on the engine and how many hours on
the carbs
since a rebuild or tear down inspection? You didn't say if this is a new
issue after many hours of run time or has been an issue up front?
The engine/carbs have 160 hours since new. No problems at all til the
failure last week. Carbs have never been into.
>One last thought or maybe it should be one of the first thoughts. Do you
have a
recirculation line back to your gascolator or tanks. If you happen to get a
vapor
lock in the right place the pressure will drop to zero. These pumps can't
pump air. The start of vapor lock will mimic these symptoms.
No return line. On the day of the failure it was about 35 degrees and
running avgas. Had been airborne for about an hour.
I flew it about an hour today after checking everything. No pressure
fluctuations or problems of any kind. Ran fine. I do believe it was the fuel
filter now. That is the only thing I found that might have been it. The big
thing I think I learned from this is that I don't consider it to be able to
gravity feed as it is now. I would encourage others running high wing planes
that you think will gravity feed in event of pump failure to check the flow
at the carb inlets if you haven't already done so. After checking that I
would have grounded mine if I didn't have an electric backup pump.
Roger and others...thanks for all the info and I will definitely keep it all
in mind as I try to improve the fuel system...I would like to plumb it w/o a
low spot in the line routing but that may be difficult w/o interfering with
the 701 door opening. Thinking.
Thx again
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel pump failure |
Johann
Thanks for that...I have the tubes welded on mine too, but no header
tank
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
Joe said:
..I would like to plumb it w/o a low spot in the line routing but that may
be difficult w/o interfering with the 701 door opening.
I ask:
Don't you WANT a low spot as a water trap???
*
*
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Joe Spencer wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> >Read my last comment, maybe it should be up front.
>
> >You may want to re-plumb up to the mechanical pump. I use 8 mm (5/16) line
> up to
> the pump then it is reduced down. I would use at least 5/16 from every
> where
> up to the pump. 1/4 with a long run can be too small. If you look at a
> Rotax
> fuel pump the line in port is bigger than the line out port. This is a
> fairly
> standard fuel line setup. I know some use 1/4" all the way through, but it
> isn't
> supposed to be that way if you read Rotax writings. Larger up to the pump
> then
> reduce it down to the carbs.
>
> Understand. I saw the bigger inlet port today when I was checking things. I
> am also thinking of a way to route the lines so they don't have to climb
> from the floor to the pump
>
> **
>
> >You may want to buy a cheap pressure gauge from 0-10 psi and put this in
> line before
> the carbs and check the pressure. That will give you some more info.
>
> *Right. I have that now...it's plumbed in just upstream of the left carb.
> A direct reading gauge. That's how I got all the pressure
> readings/fluctuations*
>
> >My other questions are how many hours on the engine and how many hours on
> the carbs
> since a rebuild or tear down inspection? You didn't say if this is a new
> issue after many hours of run time or has been an issue up front?
>
> *The engine/carbs have 160 hours since new. No problems at all til the
> failure last week. Carbs have never been into.*
>
>
> >One last thought or maybe it should be one of the first thoughts. Do you
> have a
> recirculation line back to your gascolator or tanks. If you happen to get a
> vapor
> lock in the right place the pressure will drop to zero. These pumps can't
> pump air. The start of vapor lock will mimic these symptoms.
>
> *No return line. On the day of the failure it was about 35 degrees and
> running avgas. Had been airborne for about an hour.*
> **
> *I flew it about an hour today after checking everything. No pressure
> fluctuations or problems of any kind. Ran fine. I do believe it was the fuel
> filter now. That is the only thing I found that might have been it. The big
> thing I think I learned from this is that I don't consider it to be able to
> gravity feed as it is now. I would encourage others running high wing planes
> that you think will gravity feed in event of pump failure to check the flow
> at the carb inlets if you haven't already done so. After checking that I
> would have grounded mine if I didn't have an electric backup pump. *
> *Roger and others...thanks for all the info and I will definitely keep it
> all in mind as I try to improve the fuel system...I would like to plumb it
> w/o a low spot in the line routing but that may be difficult w/o interfering
> with the 701 door opening. Thinking.*
> *Thx again*
> *Joe*
>
> **
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Glad it is working out. Here are a few things that may help in the future just
to make your fuel delivery system a little better. Use the 5/16" line all the
way to the mechanical pump. Put in a gascolator for your low spot and you can
then take a fuel sample and check for water or other contamination plus it has
a screen in it to help filter. Run a recirculation line from the cross over
line on top of the carbs back to one of the ports on the gascolator.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281574#281574
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
I used to own a 701 and its nose up pitch potential is amazing. I suggest the following:
Put the nose wheel up on a block or chair or whatever to get the tail
down as low as possible. Then measure vertical distance from the wing tank outlet
and the inlet to the mechanical fuel pump. You may be surprised to find
that this distance is minimal and probably insufficient to provide enough head
pressure for reliable gravity flow during full power nose high attitude.
The suggestion made by someone else to pressure feed the tank vents is also a good
one. I once owned a RANS S6S with these vent tubes. I had unequal draining
from the two wing tanks due to a slight mis-alignment of the two filler cap vent
tubes, so this minor pressure differential can make a big difference in flow
rate.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281605#281605
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net> |
Muffler for Rotax 912uls, used very little in excellent condition, was
off a Evector. $200.00.+ shipping Thanks. email - fconsult(at)telus.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joel M." <dirtfly7(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump failure |
Here is an article about someone's fuel system modification on a Rans S-7.
-
It may be helpful.-------- http://www.pipcom.com/~cowcam/fu
elsys.htm
Joel
--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Thom Riddle wrote:
From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel pump failure
Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 7:17 AM
I used to own a 701 and its nose up pitch potential is amazing. I suggest t
he following: Put the nose wheel up on a block or chair or whatever to get
the tail down as low as possible. Then measure vertical distance from the w
ing tank outlet and the inlet to the mechanical fuel pump. You may be surpr
ised to find that this distance is minimal and probably insufficient to pro
vide enough head pressure for reliable gravity flow during full power nose
high attitude.
The suggestion made by someone else to pressure feed the tank vents is also
a good one. I once owned a RANS S6S with these vent tubes. I had unequal d
raining from the two wing tanks due to a slight mis-alignment of the two fi
ller cap vent tubes, so this minor pressure differential can make a big dif
ference in flow rate.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have
to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281605#281605
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
| From: | "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
I have over 800 hours in last few years with 582 and ethanol gas
fiberglass fuel tanks as well.
no problems yet.
I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular grade
gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems yet.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282043#282043
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blumax008(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular
grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No
problems yet.
Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using
any sort of additive?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Guys,
I'm doing a little survey. How many of you with a 912 ul, uls or 914 have one or
more valve covers that ooze oil? Not necessarily a drip, but a little oozing
so when you wipe the bottom of the cover it leaves oil on your finger. You may
not even see it at times or if you have a cowling the high speed air coming
through the cowling just makes a little mess on the belly of the plane. If you
can let me know this info it is going to Rotax.
Thanks,
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282149#282149
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 200 hour carb inspection for 912 |
| From: | "ejessee" <eejessee(at)us.ibm.com> |
hello,
I am preparing for my conditional inspection. I read in the maintenance manual
that at 200 hours:
"Removal/assembly of the 2 carburetors for carburetor inspection (see chapter heavy
MM 73-00-00 section 3.1)"
Is this a complete carb tear-down as outlined in all of section 3 or only the assembly
inspection outlined in section 3.1? Is this a service center only task?
--------
Ernest Jessee
N4931M
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282155#282155
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | oozing valve covers |
Roger,
I have one valve cover on my 912ULS that leaks a little oil.
Occasionally a drop hits the muffler and we smell it in the cockpit.
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: oozing valve covers
Hi Guys,
I'm doing a little survey. How many of you with a 912 ul, uls or 914 have
one or more valve covers that ooze oil? Not necessarily a drip, but a little
oozing so when you wipe the bottom of the cover it leaves oil on your
finger. You may not even see it at times or if you have a cowling the high
speed air coming through the cowling just makes a little mess on the belly
of the plane. If you can let me know this info it is going to Rotax.
Thanks,
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282149#282149
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 200 hour carb inspection for 912 |
Guys,
What does this inspection involve? We can look at the carbs and detect most
issues without complete disassembly. Check the bowl for dirt, look for
leaks, feel sticky needles, etc. Are there any big fall-out-of-the-sky
issues that will occur if we don't remove and fully disassemble the carbs at
200-hours? Disassembly may increase the probability of a failure.
I think most of us simply checks our carbs, make needed fixes, but do not
fully disassemble them at 200 hours.
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ejessee
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:07 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 200 hour carb inspection for 912
hello,
I am preparing for my conditional inspection. I read in the maintenance
manual that at 200 hours:
"Removal/assembly of the 2 carburetors for carburetor inspection (see
chapter heavy MM 73-00-00 section 3.1)"
Is this a complete carb tear-down as outlined in all of section 3 or only
the assembly inspection outlined in section 3.1? Is this a service center
only task?
--------
Ernest Jessee
N4931M
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282155#282155
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 200 hour carb inspection for 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Guys,
If you give me a call I'll tell you what your options are. Try my home number first.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282167#282167
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gotsky.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
I asked about this at a Rotax service class I attended in Vernon, B.C.
They said they have a slab of glass that they will use as a flat surface to
lay a piece of fine abrasive paper on and sand the mating surface of the
valve cover.
I have yet to try it.
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:21 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: oozing valve covers
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm doing a little survey. How many of you with a 912 ul, uls or 914 have
> one or more valve covers that ooze oil? Not necessarily a drip, but a
> little oozing so when you wipe the bottom of the cover it leaves oil on
> your finger. You may not even see it at times or if you have a cowling the
> high speed air coming through the cowling just makes a little mess on the
> belly of the plane. If you can let me know this info it is going to Rotax.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282149#282149
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I have been doing the sanding. Use a piece of 220 grit. Lay the cover flat and
as you sand rotate it. It works some times and sometimes not at all. They now
recommend 105 in/lbs for valve covers verses the old 90 in/lbs and instead of
a dry "O" ring you can use some Loctite 518 or even some Loctite 5910. You don't
need much.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282182#282182
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
Dave,
You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British
cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get up
to speed. Never had that problem before ethanol ! I have had to add octane
booster to my Rotax 912 fuel to keep it from desieling on shutdown. I will now
make that a regular additive. I think if you treat the ethanol like milk
and throw it out (or burn it) before it sours,you will be ok.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
Roger,
I have the oozing on my 912UL. Like you said, it is not much, but it is
there and I wipe it down whenever I have the cowl open. I never thought much
about it as my prior engines were Lyc/Cont which is kind of like a Harley and
that generally came with the territory.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Of the three airplanes I've owned with 912UL engines and the many I've worked on,
never once had the oil ooze problem you asked about.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282199#282199
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
I have opened my 912 valve covers a few times and I have not yet
had and leak or seepage.
On the other hand, I do have a small ooze from the front of my
gear box, just enough that I need to clean my windscreen every
4-5 hours
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282207#282207
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | Ollie Washburn <ollies7s(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, all 4 of mine ooze oil. I put in all new O rings at Rotax's hefty price
but they still leaked. Haven't tried the sandpaper route yet. 600+ hrs on
the engine.
Ollie Central FL
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm doing a little survey. How many of you with a 912 ul, uls or 914 have
> one or more valve covers that ooze oil? Not necessarily a drip, but a little
> oozing so when you wipe the bottom of the cover it leaves oil on your
> finger. You may not even see it at times or if you have a cowling the high
> speed air coming through the cowling just makes a little mess on the belly
> of the plane. If you can let me know this info it is going to Rotax.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282149#282149
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="blumax008(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
> I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular
grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems
yet.
>
Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using any
sort of additive?
> [b]
The 2-strokes are a lot more permissive about fuel, in my experience. Kind of like
turbines, if it burns the motor will run.... Well, not that permissive but,
generally, they'll run fine on any 87 or higher octane gas.
Our 4 strokes are fussier, my 912ULS has dieseled on me once or twice when I got
a bad tank of (still premium) gas (which had no ethanol in it BTW).
But I've been running E10 premium in my 912ULS for about a year now after pure
gas finally went away forever in my area last spring. No problems at all even
up to 10,000' MSL.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282220#282220
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Don't mean to jump in, but want to ask: Back in the bad old days when I lived under
the hoods of my cars, I always took leaking valve covers to indicate possible
warping of the heads themselves rather than the covers. Especially on my
air-cooled motorcycles, this was the case more often than not.
I'd be curious to know if in the cases where the covers are starting to leak if
any flatness measurements are being taken on the heads as well to see if this
might be the cause?
Fortunately, my 912 is still leak-free at about 380 hours. But of course, I'm still
on pins and needles waiting for the day when something starts dribbling out
somewhere...... and how much that'll cost me...... ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282222#282222
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
These oozing issues seem to be popping up when you get some hours on the plane.
If you try the sanding method you will see the uneven surface of the valve cover.
Once you make a few strokes you will see shiny spots where the sandpaper
has done its job, but you will also see some dull spots and these are low spots
on the cover casting. Sand until the entire mating surface is shiny. It doesn't
take a number of strokes. This isn't a sure fire fix either. We are trying
a few sealants to see which works well. Loctite 574 and 5910 show a lot of promise.
I'll keep you posted. I am trying to get a better handle on how far reaching
the oozing is on the valve covers and we are trying to make sure Rotax stays
informed..
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282233#282233
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> These oozing issues seem to be popping up when you get some hours on the plane.
If you try the sanding method you will see the uneven surface of the valve
cover. Once you make a few strokes you will see shiny spots where the sandpaper
has done its job, but you will also see some dull spots and these are low spots
on the cover casting. Sand until the entire mating surface is shiny. It doesn't
take a number of strokes. This isn't a sure fire fix either. We are trying
a few sealants to see which works well. Loctite 574 and 5910 show a lot of
promise. I'll keep you posted. I am trying to get a better handle on how far reaching
the oozing is on the valve covers and we are trying to make sure Rotax
stays informed..
Ah, ok so unevenness is showing up on the cover then?
also, speaking of leaks..... Are there other places that the 912 series eventually
springs leaks over time? I'm curious about if they do start to leak when they
get on in hours and where the leaks typically occur.
Like I said, I'm used to my old cars and motorcycles where oil coming out of somewhere
is just normal after a while (not to mention looking under the cowling
of a lyc/continental here and there).....
Plus a friend of mine has a 912ULS with about 600 hours on it with a considerable
leak at the front. Most of it seems to be coming out where the starter attaches
to the housing on the engine. It's bad enough to wet the engine and get onto
the plane after a while.
He's going to pull it to have it repaired soon (and I plan to help him pull the
motor), but I'm curious what I'm in for too as I put hours on mine ;)
Thanks,
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282239#282239
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
None of my 912UL engines, each with over 700 hours, ever had any leaks anywhere.
That said, I was super conscientious about monitoring temperatures and making
sure none ever got near the max allowable.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282247#282247
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
The starter does have an "O" ring and it's fairly easy to replace. Part 250-140.
It is a 24.4 mm X 3.10 mm. Maryland Metrics is a good place to buy metric "O"
rings if you aren't locked into genuine Rotax parts and 1/3 the price. Very
unusual for this to part to leak. Check the screws and see if they are tight.
https://ssl.perfora.net/metricshop.com/rfq.htm
http://mdmetric.com/or/fpm80oringsizelisting.pdf
The only places I have really seen leak are the valve covers (usually an ooze),
the oil cooler where the lines attach (these nuts need a wrench put on them once
in a while to double check the tightness) and the gearbox (just needs to be
re-sealed with Loctite 5910).
I have tracked down a few oil seeps that was thought to be coming from one place
and it was really from somewhere else because of the high speed air flowing
through and depositing it somewhere else. This is quite common to to miss this
diagnosis.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282256#282256
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
Hi Guys. I'm worried about the proximity of my exhaust to Coolant tubing
and cowl. Has anyone used something to hold the heat in. A wrap or whatever........Thanks.....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282280#282280
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Just my personal opinion, but I'd put firesleeve on the coolant line rather
than wrap the exhaust. An exhaust wrap will hold moisture on the pipes and
cause them to corrode. Even if it doesn't destroy it, you still run the risk
of an exhaust leak that could let carbon monoxide into the cockpit.
For what it's worth.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Geoff Heap wrote:
>
> Hi Guys. I'm worried about the proximity of my exhaust to Coolant tubing
> and cowl. Has anyone used something to hold the heat in. A wrap or
> whatever........Thanks.....Geoff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282280#282280
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
Geoff,
I used Thermoflex tubing over the coolant and oil lines that were close to the
exhaust.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/thermoflex.php
Seems to work quite well.
Bob Borger
Europa XS Monowheel, Intercooled Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
On Tuesday, January 19, 2010, at 12:55PM, "Geoff Heap" wrote:
>
>Hi Guys. I'm worried about the proximity of my exhaust to Coolant tubing
>and cowl. Has anyone used something to hold the heat in. A wrap or whatever........Thanks.....Geoff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
You can use firesleeve over any line to help reduce radiated or convected heat.
All your oil lines and fuel lines should have this anyway. You can use header
wrap without any issues on the Rotax stainless steel exhaust. Carbonization that
some talk about is an issue with standard steel with more iron content, but
not the same for stainless pipes with more nickel and chrome. Many aircraft
have header wrap. I have it on my CT and have had for 2.5 years and 400 hrs. I
use it as do many CT'ers for the radiated heat on our wires and lines. If you
ever get a break (from vibration) then the wrap is fragile enough and it will
shred where ever the break is. You won't have to guess where a break occurs.
I have seen many Rotax exhaust breaks and most all are from vibration or too much
side stress and vibration when it was installed. None of these had any wrap.
You usually don't get a pin hole type leak with stainless and a side load.
It snaps all the way across and you can hear it in the cabin with a throatier
exhaust sound. Header wrap on an exhaust pipe should not affect any carbon monoxide
in a cabin. Two different animals. Hot exhaust wrap is actually put on damp.
It won't hold the moister and if you were to soak it down it burns off in
a minute after the engine is running. You can buy 50' rolls of header wrap it
places like Checker Auto, Auto Zone or PepBoys. It's about $45-$50. You will
have some left over if you wrap all four pipes. Use a hose clamp on each end.
If you have EGT probes absolutely do not let the wrap cover them or place the
probe over the wrap. It will effect your EGT's and make them higher and fluctuate
by 50-100F. Only over wrap the edges by 1/4"-3/8", you do not want to over
wrap each wind by 1/2 or it will retain too much heat.. Wrap all the way down
and actually under the exhaust springs around the exhaust muffler knuckle. Then
put a hose clamp there. This is also a good way to cut any blow by exhaust
gases down at the knuckle if you have any. Wrap up to them and then start on
the other !
side of
the probe.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282315#282315
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Just curious, Roger, how do you get into the wrap to put anti-sieze in the
slip joints?
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> You can use firesleeve over any line to help reduce radiated or convected
> heat. All your oil lines and fuel lines should have this anyway. You can use
> header wrap without any issues on the Rotax stainless steel exhaust.
> Carbonization that some talk about is an issue with standard steel with more
> iron content, but not the same for stainless pipes with more nickel and
> chrome. Many aircraft have header wrap. I have it on my CT and have had for
> 2.5 years and 400 hrs. I use it as do many CT'ers for the radiated heat on
> our wires and lines. If you ever get a break (from vibration) then the wrap
> is fragile enough and it will shred where ever the break is. You won't have
> to guess where a break occurs. I have seen many Rotax exhaust breaks and
> most all are from vibration or too much side stress and vibration when it
> was installed. None of these had any wrap. You usually don't get a pin hole
> type leak with stainless and a side load. It snaps all the way across and
> you can hear it in t!
> he cabin with a throatier exhaust sound. Header wrap on an exhaust pipe
> should not affect any carbon monoxide in a cabin. Two different animals. Hot
> exhaust wrap is actually put on damp. It won't hold the moister and if you
> were to soak it down it burns off in a minute after the engine is running.
> You can buy 50' rolls of header wrap it places like Checker Auto, Auto Zone
> or PepBoys. It's about $45-$50. You will have some left over if you wrap all
> four pipes. Use a hose clamp on each end. If you have EGT probes absolutely
> do not let the wrap cover them or place the probe over the wrap. It will
> effect your EGT's and make them higher and fluctuate by 50-100F. Only over
> wrap the edges by 1/4"-3/8", you do not want to over wrap each wind by 1/2
> or it will retain too much heat.. Wrap all the way down and actually under
> the exhaust springs around the exhaust muffler knuckle. Then put a hose
> clamp there. This is also a good way to cut any blow by exhaust gases down
> at the knuckle !
> if you have any. Wrap up to them and then start on the other !
> side of
>
> the probe.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282315#282315
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
I've been checking octane boosters and have found that most of them are the
next thing to usless... What are you using for octane boost? BTW if your
English cars are early ones with sidedraft carbs etc you may want to check
the rubber in the carbs etc as they used a natural black rubber that is not
ethanol resistant.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 19, 2010 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: More on ethanol
Dave,
You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British
cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get up
to speed. Never had that problem before ethanol ! I have had to add octane
booster to my Rotax 912 fuel to keep it from desieling on shutdown. I will
now make that a regular additive. I think if you treat the ethanol like milk
and throw it out (or burn it) before it sours,you will be ok.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912 UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | oozing valve covers |
Not sure on the Rotax but on the lycoming when they give a torque range it
is always recommended that you use the lowest possible torque. That keeps
the metal in the engine from stretching or warping.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 19, 2010 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: oozing valve covers
Roger,
I have the oozing on my 912UL. Like you said, it is not much, but it is
there and I wipe it down whenever I have the cowl open. I never thought much
about it as my prior engines were Lyc/Cont which is kind of like a Harley
and that generally came with the territory.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Noel, I came to the same conclusion when I tried about every brand availabl
e
on the shelves of the auto parts store in my Shovelhead Harley. Nothing but
Coppertone for spark plugs.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> I=92ve been checking octane boosters and have found that most of them ar
e
> the next thing to usless... What are you using for octane boost? BTW i
f
> your English cars are early ones with sidedraft carbs etc you may want to
> check the rubber in the carbs etc as they used a natural black rubber tha
t
> is not ethanol resistant.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *
> catz631(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* January 19, 2010 9:27 AM
>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: More on ethanol
>
>
> Dave,
>
> You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British
> cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get
up
> to speed. Never had that problem before ethanol ! I have had to add octan
e
> booster to my Rotax 912 fuel to keep it from desieling on shutdown. I wil
l
> now make that a regular additive. I think if you treat the ethanol like m
ilk
> and throw it out (or burn it) before it sours,you will be ok.
>
> Dick Maddux
>
> Kitfox 4
>
> 912 UL
>
> Milton,Fl
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
For what it's worth, a very long time ago while P & M ing about leaky rocker
box screws an old time Harley mechanic told me to always make sure the
o-ring groove was absolutely clean and dry. His reasoning was that fluids
are incompressible and when caught behind the o-ring, the oil wouldn't give
but the o-ring would, creating a path for a leak to start. Seems to work no
matter the reasoning.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Not sure on the Rotax but on the lycoming when they give a torque range
> it is always recommended that you use the lowest possible torque. That
> keeps the metal in the engine from stretching or warping.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *
> catz631(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* January 19, 2010 9:32 AM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: oozing valve covers
>
>
> Roger,
>
> I have the oozing on my 912UL. Like you said, it is not much, but it is
> there and I wipe it down whenever I have the cowl open. I never thought much
> about it as my prior engines were Lyc/Cont which is kind of like a Harley
> and that generally came with the territory.
>
> Dick Maddux
>
> Kitfox 4
>
> Milton,Fl
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
If you want to see oil consumption and the more than occasional drop blowing
around just check out any radial!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
Sent: January 19, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: oozing valve covers
Roger Lee wrote:
> These oozing issues seem to be popping up when you get some hours on the
plane. If you try the sanding method you will see the uneven surface of the
valve cover. Once you make a few strokes you will see shiny spots where the
sandpaper has done its job, but you will also see some dull spots and these
are low spots on the cover casting. Sand until the entire mating surface is
shiny. It doesn't take a number of strokes. This isn't a sure fire fix
either. We are trying a few sealants to see which works well. Loctite 574
and 5910 show a lot of promise. I'll keep you posted. I am trying to get a
better handle on how far reaching the oozing is on the valve covers and we
are trying to make sure Rotax stays informed..
Ah, ok so unevenness is showing up on the cover then?
also, speaking of leaks..... Are there other places that the 912 series
eventually springs leaks over time? I'm curious about if they do start to
leak when they get on in hours and where the leaks typically occur.
Like I said, I'm used to my old cars and motorcycles where oil coming out of
somewhere is just normal after a while (not to mention looking under the
cowling of a lyc/continental here and there).....
Plus a friend of mine has a 912ULS with about 600 hours on it with a
considerable leak at the front. Most of it seems to be coming out where the
starter attaches to the housing on the engine. It's bad enough to wet the
engine and get onto the plane after a while.
He's going to pull it to have it repaired soon (and I plan to help him pull
the motor), but I'm curious what I'm in for too as I put hours on mine ;)
Thanks,
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282239#282239
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
Exhaust wraps look great on motorcycles but they can cause a great increase
of internal temperatures.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: January 19, 2010 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Exhaust wrap/insulation ?
Just my personal opinion, but I'd put firesleeve on the coolant line rather
than wrap the exhaust. An exhaust wrap will hold moisture on the pipes and
cause them to corrode. Even if it doesn't destroy it, you still run the risk
of an exhaust leak that could let carbon monoxide into the cockpit.
For what it's worth.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Geoff Heap wrote:
Hi Guys. I'm worried about the proximity of my exhaust to Coolant tubing
and cowl. Has anyone used something to hold the heat in. A wrap or
whatever........Thanks.....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282280#282280
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
On our exhaust we are only covering about 15" of exhaust so it does not effect
EGT's at all. You wrap from the exhaust port at the cylinder and only down over
the knuckle by the springs. I have done many and have never had any issues or
complaints and I keep doing more as people keep requesting it. I have one to
do Jan. 30 from a guy out of San Antonio. I'll pull the engine and put on a firewall
blanket, Matco brakes, pull the wings for an inspection and an engine
inspection.
Just don't cover or have the wrap around the EGT probes. To apply anti-seize you
loosen the clamp at the knuckle slide the wrap up some and drop or pull away
the muffler an few inches. Then pull the wrap back the 1"-1.5" you moved it and
re-clamp. If you land and pull off your cowling would you grab your exhaust
pipe? Not with any common since no one would, but with the wrap I can put my
hand on it. They Mfg. of the wrap claims it reduces radiated heat by 70%. I don't
know how accurate that number is, but what a difference.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282377#282377
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gotsky.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
so what is this wrap called? where canI get it?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 7:49 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ?
>
> On our exhaust we are only covering about 15" of exhaust so it does not
> effect EGT's at all. You wrap from the exhaust port at the cylinder and
> only down over the knuckle by the springs. I have done many and have never
> had any issues or complaints and I keep doing more as people keep
> requesting it. I have one to do Jan. 30 from a guy out of San Antonio.
> I'll pull the engine and put on a firewall blanket, Matco brakes, pull the
> wings for an inspection and an engine inspection.
> Just don't cover or have the wrap around the EGT probes. To apply
> anti-seize you loosen the clamp at the knuckle slide the wrap up some and
> drop or pull away the muffler an few inches. Then pull the wrap back the
> 1"-1.5" you moved it and re-clamp. If you land and pull off your cowling
> would you grab your exhaust pipe? Not with any common since no one would,
> but with the wrap I can put my hand on it. They Mfg. of the wrap claims it
> reduces radiated heat by 70%. I don't know how accurate that number is,
> but what a difference.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282377#282377
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
| From: | "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
[quote="blumax008(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
> I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular
grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems
yet.
>
Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using any
sort of additive?
> [b]
No additives at all. Just regular grade 87 I guess. What ever I get 98% of it
goes in throught a filter with a screen .
I had a can of gas about 3 months old I found in hanger on weekend that came back
from cottage in Oct ( it could have been bought in summer too ) I only had
about 2 gallons left in plane so I dumped in 5 gallons . WOrked fine but on a
few full power pull ups I think that Iheard some pinging twice under load only.
EGTs running abit high right now but I am still on summer needle settings and prop
a tad course still so this keeps the load on engine and EGTs close to in line.
I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet. If I do I will try these likely www.wingtanks.com
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282406#282406
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanolMore on ethanol |
Noel,
The carbs on my British cars have all been rebuilt with alcohol resistant
rubber. The problem with the bad running has to do with the age of the fuel.
In a few weeks the fuel turns to "sour milk" ! Draining all the fuel and
refilling solves the problem of bad running (until the next time)
In referance to the dieseling in my aircraft, I poured Lucas Racing Octane
booster in my airplane tanks, shook the tar out of the wings to mix, and
then flew it. This was the same load of fuel that dieseled on me three times at
shut down previously. I have since flown the airplane a few times without
adding fuel and it has not dieseled. It made a believer out of me. If I
cannot fly the aircraft enough to keep recycling the fuel then I will use the
octane booster. I am also starting to use premium vs regular in my aircraft, in
an effort to lengthen the life of the fuel. My engine only requires regular.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
The prop flange is part of the engine so I thought I would bring this up
here. I am replacing the prop on my aircraft with a Kiev prop (removing my
Warp) The prop flange looks like a "swiss cheese" on my older Rotax 912. I have
three sizes of holes. The outer holes are bigger and with the Warp I used
prop bushings. The Kiev uses 6 of the inner holes (out of the 12) All of the
inner holes are threaded and are two different sizes. The ones I use for the
Kiev hub take an 8mm bolt as did the Warp (with the bushes) Confused yet
?....me too
Anyway,I am trying to find good grade 8 ,8mm bolts. The importer says the
Chinese are the only ones that have 8mm prop bolts. I don't want to use
Chinese prop bolts. I know AN bolts are not metric but does anyone know where I
can get the proper bolts ?
Thanks !
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanolMore on ethanol |
The 200 hour service on my one-year-old Rotax 912ULS run on 93 Octane 10%
Ethanol showed significant flaking of the carburetor floats. I now drive
30 miles each way to get non-ethanol gas. Could have been a bad batch of
resin used to make the floats, or could have been the Ethanol. Can't afford
the risk, no more Ethanol!!!!
Tom
N569AT
Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="Dick Maddux"]The prop flange is part of the engine so I thought I would
bring this up here. I am replacing the prop on my aircraft with a Kiev prop (removing
my Warp) The prop flange looks like a "swiss cheese" on my older Rotax
912. I have three sizes of holes. The outer holes are bigger and with the Warp
I used prop bushings. The Kiev uses 6 of the inner holes (out of the 12) All
of the inner holes are threaded and are two different sizes. The ones I use
for the Kiev hub take an 8mm bolt as did the Warp (with the bushes) Confused yet
?....me too
Anyway,I am trying to find good grade 8 ,8mm bolts. The importer says the Chinese
are the only ones that have 8mm prop bolts. I don't want to use Chinese prop
bolts. I know AN bolts are not metric but does anyone know where I can get
the proper bolts ?
Thanks !
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
> [b]
Aircraft grade metric hardware is unavailable in the US. I've looked everywhere
for it in the past and got only puppy-dog looks from everyone I've ever asked
about it. So forget it ;)
Your only choice is grade 8.8 8MM bolts available at hardware stores and fastener
outfits like Fastenal (highly recommended). Fortunately, those fasteners work
just fine, they're plenty strong and the QC on them is generally good enough.
Do NOT use aluminum hardware _with backing locknuts only_ - they're not strong
enough with only backing nuts. Don't ask me why I know this. If they thread into
something substantial, such as the threads in the prop flange or the lugs in
the outer ring if equipped, they'll be fine.
5/16" grade 5 is another option for the unthreaded holes. AN5 bolts with AN locknuts
should work too, tho the tightening torque specified for most props are
for coarse thread. AN bolts/nuts are UNF so you'd have to adjust the tightening
torque accordingly to get the same preload.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282447#282447
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanolMore on ethanol |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="tom463(at)aol.com"]The 200 hour service on my one-year-old Rotax 912ULS
run on 93 Octane 10% Ethanol showed significant flaking of the carburetor floats.
I now drive 30 miles each way to get non-ethanol gas. Could have been
a bad batch of resin used to make the floats, or could have been the Ethanol.
Can't afford the risk, no more Ethanol!!!!
Tom
N569AT
Florida
> [b]
The floats should be OK with ethanol. As per the Rotax bulletin posted this summer,
there should be nothing inside the engine that can't deal with up to 10%
ethanol.
The flaking in your case I suspect was probably due to something else (I've heard
of this before even where pure gas was being used).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282450#282450
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | Peter Thomson <peterlthomson(at)gmail.com> |
500hrs, no oil leaks, runs cold
Peter
CH710SP/912ULS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh MCKAY III <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanolMore on ethanol |
Tom:=0A=0AYour problem may not be the Ethanol. It may be simply a set of ba
d floats from the manufacturer. Carefully read and follow Rotax Service Ins
truction SI-912-021, and without question replace the floats! The internal
Carb.-floats should be fine using fuel with up to 10% Ethanol.=0A=0AHugh
McKay=0ARotax 912 UL=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:
"tom463(at)aol.com" =0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0A
Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 9:25:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Mo
re on ethanolMore on ethanol=0A=0AThe 200 hour service on my one-year-old R
otax 912ULS run on 93 Octane 10% Ethanol showed significant flaking of the
carburetor floats.- I now drive 30 miles each way to get non-ethanol gas.
- Could have been a bad batch of resin used to make the floats, or could
have been the Ethanol.- Can't afford the risk, no more Ethanol!!!!=0A=0AT
===
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blumax008(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet.
Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass fuel
tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel, it was leaking fuel. AFTER I
began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel tanks
& stops leaks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Dick,
McMaster-Carr has Grade 8.8, DIN 931 (1.25 pitch, partially threaded) and DIN 960
(1.00 pitch, partially threaded) metric bolts. I have no idea where they are
manufactured. I have no idea if they are exactly what you need for prop bolts.
But you can check them out and see what you think.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Go to Cap Screws. Scroll down and select Metric under "System of Measurement." Select Class 8.8 under "Material." See what they have from there..
Good luck,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Monowheel, Intercooled Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop
On Wednesday, January 20, 2010, at 08:20AM, wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fisher" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
Good one !!
You should post that here
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=35
Ethanol thread
Glad to hear !!
----- Original Message -----
From: blumax008(at)aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: More on ethanol
In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet.
Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass
fuel tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel, it was leaking
fuel. AFTER I began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel
tanks & stops leaks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fisher" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 582 Carb icing |
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=168&start=0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Dick,
Believe it or not Ace Hardware has the metric grade 8.8.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282558#282558
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
That is SCARY!
Think what is happening that would cause it to stop leaking? Some thing is
swelling ... E10 will cause that in FIBERGLASS. Notice I say fiberglass,
not EPOXY. There are some EPOXYs that can handle E10.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:21 AM, wrote:
> In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
>
> I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet.
>
> Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass fuel
> tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel, it was leaking fuel. AFTER
> I began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
>
> So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel tanks
> & stops leaks!
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
How does a vinyl-ester gas tank handle ethanol as apposed to epoxy or
poly? Anyone know?
Dave Austin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
Where do you get the wrap?
I was thinking like the bikes where the exhaust is wrapped from stem to
stern. The short bit you describe wouldn't cause an internal overheat.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: January 20, 2010 12:19 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ?
On our exhaust we are only covering about 15" of exhaust so it does not
effect EGT's at all. You wrap from the exhaust port at the cylinder and only
down over the knuckle by the springs. I have done many and have never had
any issues or complaints and I keep doing more as people keep requesting it.
I have one to do Jan. 30 from a guy out of San Antonio. I'll pull the engine
and put on a firewall blanket, Matco brakes, pull the wings for an
inspection and an engine inspection.
Just don't cover or have the wrap around the EGT probes. To apply anti-seize
you loosen the clamp at the knuckle slide the wrap up some and drop or pull
away the muffler an few inches. Then pull the wrap back the 1"-1.5" you
moved it and re-clamp. If you land and pull off your cowling would you grab
your exhaust pipe? Not with any common since no one would, but with the wrap
I can put my hand on it. They Mfg. of the wrap claims it reduces radiated
heat by 70%. I don't know how accurate that number is, but what a
difference.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282377#282377
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
The header warp is called just that. It comes in 1" and 2" wide rolls and 50' long.
Just use the 2". It comes in a light tan color or a darker black color. Either
will work, but I would recommend the black as it has a nice protective coating
already applied. Some want you to paint the light tan for a coating, but
it is not that big a deal for us.
Racers or high performance guys use this to eek out more HP. They wrap from the
exhaust port all the way down the entire exhaust. This keeps the exhaust gases
hot and makes them exit the exhaust pipe faster. If your pipes are not wrapped
like our passenger cars then the exhaust gas cools and slows down in the pipe
which robs a small amount of HP. Not enough for us to worry about. The high
performance guys want it all.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282597#282597
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Dick,
Ace Hardware has these bolts in metric.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282598#282598
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: oozing valve covers |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
The oil leaks that I'm talking about don't come from an over heat or a hot engine.
They are vibration caused or the cast valve covers have high and low spots.
I think I have a good solution that seems to be working well. Sand the valve covers
on a flat surface with some 220 grit to make sure the surface is flat all
the way around the valve cover. Don't be afraid it takes more than a couple of
strokes. Clean the "O" ring groves and mating metal surfaces with a solvent.
The put the "O" rings in place and coat them with Loctite 574 (orange), both
the "O" ring side and the engine mating surface. You do not need to glob it on,
but a film around both surfaces and the small "O" ring in the center where the
valve cover screw goes through. Them re-mount the valve cover and torque to
115 in/lbs. The normal torque is 105 in/lbs so the additional 10 in/lbs won't
hurt anything. So far very good success.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282602#282602
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | More on ethanolMore on ethanol |
Thanks Dick
I've had more than a little experience with the English cars and, thank god,
no experience with ethanol fuel... My recommendation to you would be to add
a sump drain at the lowest point of your fuel system and drain the tanks
after every flight... do the same with your car. Ethanol evaporates faster
than the gas it's in and that changes your fuel doublequick... Best thing
is not to have it there. If your car is old enough a little 100LL probably
wouldn't hurt either.
I'm looking for some good octane booster for my Miata... It only has a ten
gal tank (45L) and most of the local pumps have gone unisex... one nozzle
for three grades of gas. The hose and internal plumbing are supposed to
take almost two gallons to fill which means that for a dry tank I end up
with 20% low octane gas. The engine is around 11:1 CR and doesn't like low
octanes at all!
About the Miata, one of the first 224 in North America, I'd swap it today
for an MG... TF or TD... I'd think long and hard about a model A too even
though I'm not fussy about the front suspension on that car.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 20, 2010 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: More on ethanolMore on ethanol
Noel,
The carbs on my British cars have all been rebuilt with alcohol resistant
rubber. The problem with the bad running has to do with the age of the fuel.
In a few weeks the fuel turns to "sour milk" ! Draining all the fuel and
refilling solves the problem of bad running (until the next time)
In referance to the dieseling in my aircraft, I poured Lucas Racing Octane
booster in my airplane tanks, shook the tar out of the wings to mix, and
then flew it. This was the same load of fuel that dieseled on me three times
at shut down previously. I have since flown the airplane a few times without
adding fuel and it has not dieseled. It made a believer out of me. If I
cannot fly the aircraft enough to keep recycling the fuel then I will use
the octane booster. I am also starting to use premium vs regular in my
aircraft, in an effort to lengthen the life of the fuel. My engine only
requires regular.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "E. D. Eliot" <gr8pugs(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More on ethanol |
Sold it - sorry.
From: dave(at)cfisher.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: More on ethanol
Date: Wed=2C 20 Jan 2010 11:30:08 -0500
Good one !!
You should post that here
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=35
Ethanol thread
Glad to hear !!
----- Original Message -----
From:
blumax008(at)aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday=2C January 20=2C 2010 10:21
AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: More
on ethanol
In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time=2C dave@c
fisher.com writes:
I hear
about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any
yet.
Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass fuel
tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel=2C it was leaking fuel. A
FTER I
began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel
tanks & stops leaks!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust wrap/insulation ? |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
Thanks to all that replied. I like Roger's method with the wrap.
It suits my purpose well because I only want to use it to protect lines that pass
close by. Mainly coolant. I would wrap only those area's of the exhaust. Many
thanks. I love this list. I started building from plans in 1991. I still have
a handwritten letter that I wrote to Chris Heinz about a small mod to my Slat
spars. He marked it up with a few extra rivets and wrote that it would be fine.
He replied quite quickly. I think thats about the time that I had my 286
Arche Rival......Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282694#282694
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for the input on the prop bolts guys. What does the 8.8 mean. Does
it mean grade 8, and 8mm or has it do do with the thread.
Dick Maddux
Milton Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Dick,
Check: http://www.mcmaster.com/param/html/AboutCapScrewMaterial/
McMaster has lots of great information associated with their products on their
web site.
Bob Borger
Europa XS Monowheel, Intercooled Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop
On Thursday, January 21, 2010, at 08:21AM, wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Pletting" <jpkp(at)comcast.net> |
Hi Dick---The numbers on the head of metric capscrews indicate the
strength--In this case, 8.8 tells us that this metric capscrew is equal
in strength to an american made grade 5 capscrew (indicated by 3 equally
spaced radial marks on the head [100,000 to 120,000 lbs. tensile
strength]). 10.9 on a metric hex head capscrew equals grade 8 american
specs (150,000 to 160,000 lbs/sq. in.). John Pletting--Vancouver WA.
----- Original Message -----
From: catz631(at)aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Prop bolts
Thanks for the input on the prop bolts guys. What does the 8.8 mean.
Does it mean grade 8, and 8mm or has it do do with the thread.
Dick Maddux
Milton Fl
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| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Here's another good basic chart on bolt grades:
http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx
The grading system for metric and English sized bolts is slightly different with
different units of measurement, etc. But there's a rough equivalence between
some of the grades like 8..8 metric vs 5 English.
The grades that manufacturers seem to choose for prop bolts for 912 class props
are 8.8 for metric and grade 5 for English. Some manufacturers like Powerfin
use stainless steel hardware (with, of course, specific installation requirements
like they have to thread into mounting lugs in the flange and fairly precise
torque requirements).
These grades have the ductility required for that application. Harder bolts tend
to be too brittle and have more risk of failure.
But by now you should see bolts ain't all that simple ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282710#282710
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December 17, 2009 - January 21, 2010
RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-an