RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-bc
October 10, 2012 - January 15, 2013
Now, there are different types of load test equipment out there. You could
go with the old favorite Resistor Bank which puts a heavy duty load on the
battery and returns a meter reading of condition. They are big, bulky and
require a cool down between uses. And deplete the charge in the battery.
So after you check the battery you should re-charge the battery. OLD
SCHOOL but it does work.
New School - I have been very satisfied with a simple digital unit that is
offered by Harbor Freight that gives you Voltage, % of Life, Condition and
INTERNAL RESISTANCE. The internal resistance is very important. It tells
the condition and if the battery is capable of taking and holding a charge.
It also give you an idea of how many years you have left on the battery.
The idea of a battery tender is a great idea as long as you have AC at your
plane. If you are like me and are tied down without AC - You can still do
the battery tending with a Solar Panel. How big a solar panel? In this
case use the American Theory - Bigger is Better. I found a 5 Amp panel and
ordered a controller for it. Yes, you can over charge with a solar panel
if the current is high enough, ergo the controller. Mine hooks directly to
the battery through an all rubber trailer hitch plug & jack.
BUT! Perform the series of test I sent. As the saying goes: There are
no mechanics in a can. You just have to find and eliminate the problem
through procedure and dirty hands.
Barry
PS
I would rather get my hands dirty on a plane than a car. GAUD I hate cars.
All they have to do is get me to the plane and I have more problems with
them than planes. :-)
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF wrote:
> **
> 117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few days ago when turning the
> start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to "jam" and didn't
> turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I suspected a low
> battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything. This morning again
> with as fully charged battery it did the same thing, but started right up
> on second try.
>
> I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and everything was normal;
> prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal happening on two
> consecutive starts.
>
> I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth are hitting, rather
> than meshing, with the engine.
>
> Not to sure what to make of this.
>
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JohnF" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
FlyaDive and Thom,
I have a hangar with power...will check battery terminal voltage and see
how it compares to Thom's data...I have thinking about this problem and
now lean toward thinking it MIGHT be the starter relay because of a
clicking-like sound when the problem arises. I plan to remove, clean
and re-tighten all connections from the battery to the starter relay and
then on to the starter itself...will do this today and report results.
Thanks for the help
John
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity
JohnF:
As a follow up to Thom's suggestion:
Voltage checking will put you in the ball park but, you have to
identify the type of battery you are using. Is it a:
Wet Cell
Aircraft Wet Cell
Sealed Battery
Aircraft Sealed Battery
If it is a Wet Cell then the method of testing should be a Hydrometer.
They tell so much, even by just by looking at the color of the
electrolyte you can get information on the condition of the battery.
Clear is good - Brown is Bad.
Reading the Specific Gravity (SG) will tell you the charge.
Why do I mention Aircraft Battery Vs just Battery? Because the SG of
the electrolyte is different between the two. The Aircraft Battery has
a higher SG.
AND therefore a Higher Voltage if you use a voltmeter. With Aircraft
you could read a higher voltage while the condition (Amperage) of the
battery is poor. This is true for comparison between both batteries
and even types Wet Vs Sealed.
Next method of testing and probably the best is a load test.
Now, there are different types of load test equipment out there. You
could go with the old favorite Resistor Bank which puts a heavy duty
load on the battery and returns a meter reading of condition. They are
big, bulky and require a cool down between uses. And deplete the charge
in the battery. So after you check the battery you should re-charge the
battery. OLD SCHOOL but it does work.
New School - I have been very satisfied with a simple digital unit
that is offered by Harbor Freight that gives you Voltage, % of Life,
Condition and INTERNAL RESISTANCE. The internal resistance is very
important. It tells the condition and if the battery is capable of
taking and holding a charge. It also give you an idea of how many years
you have left on the battery.
The idea of a battery tender is a great idea as long as you have AC at
your plane. If you are like me and are tied down without AC - You can
still do the battery tending with a Solar Panel. How big a solar panel?
In this case use the American Theory - Bigger is Better. I found a 5
Amp panel and ordered a controller for it. Yes, you can over charge
with a solar panel if the current is high enough, ergo the controller.
Mine hooks directly to the battery through an all rubber trailer hitch
plug & jack.
BUT! Perform the series of test I sent. As the saying goes: There
are no mechanics in a can. You just have to find and eliminate the
problem through procedure and dirty hands.
Barry
PS
I would rather get my hands dirty on a plane than a car. GAUD I hate
cars. All they have to do is get me to the plane and I have more
problems with them than planes. :-)
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF wrote:
117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few days ago when
turning the start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to "jam"
and didn't turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I
suspected a low battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything.
This morning again with as fully charged battery it did the same thing,
but started right up on second try.
I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and everything was
normal; prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal happening on
two consecutive starts.
I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth are hitting,
rather than meshing, with the engine.
Not to sure what to make of this.
John
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Weaver <mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
You should also insure that there is only a minimal voltage drop offered by
battery cables and connectors.- Put a remote starter switch on the firew
all mounted starter solenoid so that you can manually operate the starter w
ith ignition off.- With a volt meter connected from starter input to grou
nd, monitor the actual voltage present at the starter input terminal during
cranking of engine.- 12-volt starters require a minimum of 9.0-9.5 vol
ts across the primary motor winding to avoid-"stall".- A connection tha
t is causing as much as .50 volt drop in a high current carrying circuit wi
ll also become hot to the touch (good idea to touch connectors as a practic
al test for high resistance connection).- The test just-described is co
mmonly used by competent automotive technicians, when diagnosing sluggish a
utomotive starters, prior to replacing either starter or battery.- To the
untrained observer, a starter motor in stall mode will send current toward
infinity and pull battery voltage down...often-resulting in misdiagnosis
.- The auto owner will often end up being told that both starter and batt
ery are defective!-
-
The Sky-Tec starter has greatly improved cold weather starting for my 912 U
L Rotax engine.- This starter is on steroids when I turn the ignition key
.- Last winter I made one ski trip to Bessemer in upper Michigan.-When
I-returned to the airport,-I had-no concerns about engine cranking sp
eed on engine start up.- The engine fired up immediately and I was on my
way for the return trip home.
Dave Weaver-
--- On Wed, 10/10/12, Thom Riddle wrote:
From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity
Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 7:05 AM
JohnF,
You said that it occurred again when the battery was fully charged. Do you
have a volt meter in your airplane? If not, after fully charging the batter
y, before you try starting it in the morning, disconnect the charger and pu
t a multi-meter (V-Ohm) meter on the battery to see what the actual voltage
is.
For a 12 volt lead acid battery the charge states are indicated by the foll
owing approximate voltages:
volts- ---charge-state
12.7+---100%
12.4- - ---75%
12.2- - ---50%
12.0- - ---25%
11.8- - - ---0%
If your battery does not come up to at least 12.4 volts, it is probably rea
dy for replacement. To keep them in good shape, a battery tender should be
used during periods when the airplane is not flown often.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385032#385032
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after
flying, landing and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow
the correct procedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the
throttle. In the past I have had no problem on re-starting using this
method, but now the engine will try to start and it will run very rough
for some seconds (5 to 10 seconds), but then it quits. I repeat the
start, but the same thin occurs. If I let the engine sit for say 5 to 10
minutes and try again the engine will start as normal. This is occurring
every time I fly, land, cut the engine off, and then try to restart.
Every thing else is fine. I can=99t figure out what may be causing
this. Any suggestions?
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
On 09:11 AM 10/10/2012, Hugh McKay wrote:
> Any suggestions?
Vapor lock?
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
| From: | Dave <daberti(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Check that the choke/enriching circuit is completely closed and check the pl
ug gaps.
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 10, 2012, at 11:11 AM, "Hugh McKay" wrote:
> I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after flying, l
anding and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow the correct p
rocedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the throttle. In the past I
have had no problem on re-starting using this method, but now the engine wi
ll try to start and it will run very rough for some seconds (5 to 10 seconds
), but then it quits. I repeat the start, but the same thin occurs. If I let
the engine sit for say 5 to 10 minutes and try again the engine will start a
s normal. This is occurring every time I fly, land, cut the engine off, and t
hen try to restart. Every thing else is fine. I can=99t figure out wha
t may be causing this. Any suggestions?
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
> Allegro 2000
> Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hugh:
What is your definition of a 'choke closed'?
Once an engine is warmed up - hot. You do not close the choke... Choke
should be open to allow max air flow. Choking an engine adds more fuel
than air.
One method to prove this would be to inspect your spark plugs to see if
they are WET next time you have this issue. If wet, then there is more
fuel that the combustion process requires.
Barry
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Hugh McKay wrote:
> I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after
> flying, landing and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow
> the correct procedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the
> throttle. In the past I have had no problem on re-starting using this
> method, but now the engine will try to start and it will run very rough f
or
> some seconds (5 to 10 seconds), but then it quits. I repeat the start, bu
t
> the same thin occurs. If I let the engine sit for say 5 to 10 minutes and
> try again the engine will start as normal. This is occurring every time I
> fly, land, cut the engine off, and then try to restart. Every thing else
is
> fine. I can=92t figure out what may be causing this. Any suggestions?
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
> Allegro 2000
> Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JohnF" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
I did my best to insure good contact on all points from battery to
starter. The RV-12 that this Rotax 912 ULS is installed in is incredibly
difficult to get at things aft of the engine...no room for even your
hands in most cases unless you want to physically pull the engine - not
a pleasant prospect.
I found nothing suspicious excent that my cheapo digital multimete shows
battery terminal voltage well over 14 volts, so I am disregarding that
reading...
After doing what I could about terminal condition I tried the starter
without any ignition turned on. I did 10 prop starts and stops with no
abnormal outcomes. I waited a while and did another 10, again no
problems. I again waited a while and did another 10 and still no
problems. (Battery seemed very strong during this effort)
I hate intermittent problems; I know they always come back to bite you.
For now I am going to leave things alone and see what turns up.
Will post outcome.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Oddity |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
John:
Doing voltage checks with a meter that you are not comfortable with or that
reads incorrect is a waste of time. Get a second meter of a different
brand and compare the two. Use a simple NEW 1.5 VDC (D Cell) and see what
that reads, then stack 8 D Cells and verify the meter accuracy (1.5 V x 8
12V).
Doing your 10 prop starts is totally useless, SINCE there is a
strong possibility the problem is your Starter Relay. As I mentioned
before repeated starts burns off or knocks off carbon on the contacts and
give a FALSE - Positive.
Here is a test for that:
1 - REMOVE the wire TO the starter.
2 - Close the switch so the Starter Relay is engaged. {DO
NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST}
3 - Read the Voltage across (INPUT to OUTPUT) the Starter Relay [INPUT to
Ground... OUTPUT to Ground] - It should read the SAME as the Voltage going
INTO (INPUT) the Starter Relay.
4 - Next with the Starter RELAY still closed {DO NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER
SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST}
Read the Voltage ACROSS the Starter Relay - It should Read ZERO VOLTS. Any
voltage means REPLACE the starter.
5 - A variation on the above test - With the Starter Relay STILL closed
- {DO NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST} Read the
RESISTANCE across the INPUT to OUTPUT terminals of the Starter Relay. - It
should read ZERO OHMS on the LOWEST SCALE. ALSO - - - ZERO out the meter
resistance OR subtract the meter resistance from your reading. Anything
between 0 and 0.1 Ohms accept... ANYTHING OVER that - Replace the Starter
Relay.
John, if yo would like to add pictures please do so - They Help!
Barry
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:03 PM, JohnF wrote:
> **
> I did my best to insure good contact on all points from battery to
> starter. The RV-12 that this Rotax 912 ULS is installed in is incredibly
> difficult to get at things aft of the engine...no room for even your hands
> in most cases unless you want to physically pull the engine - not a
> pleasant prospect.
>
> I found nothing suspicious excent that my cheapo digital multimete shows
> battery terminal voltage well over 14 volts, so I am disregarding that
> reading...
>
> After doing what I could about terminal condition I tried the starter
> without any ignition turned on. I did 10 prop starts and stops with no
> abnormal outcomes. I waited a while and did another 10, again no problems.
> I again waited a while and did another 10 and still no problems. (Battery
> seemed very strong during this effort)
>
> I hate intermittent problems; I know they always come back to bite you.
> For now I am going to leave things alone and see what turns up.
>
> Will post outcome.
>
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
A poor ground and or corrosion will also cause this. Of course a bad relay too.
Do the cheap things first.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385087#385087
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Hugh,
Make sure the float level in the carbs are at 10.5mm in height from the outside
edge of the carb. When were the carbs last rebuilt? If it is over 5 years regardless
of hours you may want to do an overhaul. Check the floats and make sure
one isn't sinking (flooding) under pressure right after you stop. Plug gap between
.023 - .027 and not over 75 hours old. new fuel pump or old? Do you have
a fuel re-circulation line?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385088#385088
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
Roger,
I don't quite understand your first sentence. Please explain in further
detail. Carbs have not been "rebuilt" since new (550 hours on the carbs - 5
years and 3 months ). I guess to check the floats to see if one is "sinking"
just take the bowl off and fill it with gas and see if the float "floats" or
"sinks". Right?
I will check the plug gap. Old original fuel pump. I do have a fuel
recirculation line.
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
Senior Consultant
Worldwide Engineering Inc.
4090 North NC Hwy. 16
Denver, NC 28037
Ph. 704-661-8271
Fax 704-483-5466
email hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net
http://www.wwegeo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem
Hi Hugh,
Make sure the float level in the carbs are at 10.5mm in height from the
outside edge of the carb. When were the carbs last rebuilt? If it is over 5
years regardless of hours you may want to do an overhaul. Check the floats
and make sure one isn't sinking (flooding) under pressure right after you
stop. Plug gap between .023 - .027 and not over 75 hours old. new fuel pump
or old? Do you have a fuel re-circulation line?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385088#385088
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Hugh,
To check float levels you do just remove the bowls and put fuel in with the floats.
The float pins should be equal to the fuel level. To check the float arm
level you need to turn the carb upside down. Place a mm ruler and place it on
the edge of the carb and measure the distance of the float arm up on the ruler.
The proper height is 10.5mm. This controls fuel level in the bowl which has
a big impact on the way the engine runs.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385122#385122
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 912 UL vibration |
| From: | U <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Hello List
Yesterday I started the engine on the Kitfox IV I'm rebuilding. It's a 912UL from
1997 with 375 hours that I purchased about 6 months back. Before i purchased
it, was checked by a qualified Rotax mechanic who among other things, changed
a number of rubber parts.
Before starting it, I manually checked the carb valves so that they were visually
in a similar position. Anyway, the engine seems to have a rather strong vibration
to it so I haven't run it for much more than 20-30 seconds at the time.
I haven't had the carb valves aligned exactly with a pressure gauge, but the
vibration is much more than what I would expect if it were just due to carb
misalignment. And it doesn't seem to be the prop (a 3-blade Duc whose pitch has
been set with the appropriate instrument).
I called the Rotax mechanic who checked it and he suggested checking the carbs
for obstructions which I have now done (I found an insect inside the left carb,
but that didnt seem to change anything). I'll blow some compressed air through
them today just to make sure that everything is clean.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try next? The closest Rotax
mechanic is a 5 hour drive from where I am in Sicily so I don't want to call
him out before I have tried everything that I can do personally.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | PHILLIPS I <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com> |
Hi Sacha
I would double check that the prop isnt too corse first,
a pair of vacuum gauges
are the way to go too sinc the carbs, you could be way out by just
visually checking
the throttle linkage.
Ivor
On 12 October 2012 06:28, U wrote:
>
> Hello List
>
> Yesterday I started the engine on the Kitfox IV I'm rebuilding. It's a
> 912UL from 1997 with 375 hours that I purchased about 6 months back.
> Before i purchased it, was checked by a qualified Rotax mechanic who among
> other things, changed a number of rubber parts.
>
> Before starting it, I manually checked the carb valves so that they were
> visually in a similar position. Anyway, the engine seems to have a rather
> strong vibration to it so I haven't run it for much more than 20-30 seconds
> at the time. I haven't had the carb valves aligned exactly with a pressure
> gauge, but the vibration is much more than what I would expect if it were
> just due to carb misalignment. And it doesn't seem to be the prop (a
> 3-blade Duc whose pitch has been set with the appropriate instrument).
>
> I called the Rotax mechanic who checked it and he suggested checking the
> carbs for obstructions which I have now done (I found an insect inside the
> left carb, but that didnt seem to change anything). I'll blow some
> compressed air through them today just to make sure that everything is
> clean.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try next? The closest
> Rotax mechanic is a 5 hour drive from where I am in Sicily so I don't want
> to call him out before I have tried everything that I can do personally.
>
> Sacha
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ivor,
I just tried it with another prop and the vibrations are gone. Now I can sto
p torturing those poor carbs :-/ although I will have them synced with a vac
uum gauge.
Thank you
On Oct 12, 2012, at 9:28, PHILLIPS I wrote:
> Hi Sacha
>
> I would double check that the prop isnt too corse first,
> a pair of vacuum gauges
> are the way to go too sinc the carbs, you could be way out by just visual
ly checking
> the throttle linkage.
>
> Ivor
>
> On 12 October 2012 06:28, U wrote:
>
> Hello List
>
> Yesterday I started the engine on the Kitfox IV I'm rebuilding. It's a 912
UL from 1997 with 375 hours that I purchased about 6 months back. Before i p
urchased it, was checked by a qualified Rotax mechanic who among other thing
s, changed a number of rubber parts.
>
> Before starting it, I manually checked the carb valves so that they were v
isually in a similar position. Anyway, the engine seems to have a rather st
rong vibration to it so I haven't run it for much more than 20-30 seconds at
the time. I haven't had the carb valves aligned exactly with a pressure ga
uge, but the vibration is much more than what I would expect if it were just
due to carb misalignment. And it doesn't seem to be the prop (a 3-blade Du
c whose pitch has been set with the appropriate instrument).
>
> I called the Rotax mechanic who checked it and he suggested checking the c
arbs for obstructions which I have now done (I found an insect inside the le
ft carb, but that didnt seem to change anything). I'll blow some compressed
air through them today just to make sure that everything is clean.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try next? The closest R
otax mechanic is a 5 hour drive from where I am in Sicily so I don't want to
call him out before I have tried everything that I can do personally.
>
> Sacha
>
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
On my Duc propeller, two of the blades were a newer vintage and one was an o
lder blade of the same model. It turns out the newer blades are lighter than
the older ones and this is what was creating the vibration. I swapped out t
he old blade for a new one and it now runs perfect...
On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:41, Sacha wrote:
> Hi Ivor,
> I just tried it with another prop and the vibrations are gone. Now I can s
top torturing those poor carbs :-/ although I will have them synced with a v
acuum gauge.
>
> Thank you
>
> On Oct 12, 2012, at 9:28, PHILLIPS I wrote:
>
>> Hi Sacha
>>
>> I would double check that the prop isnt too corse first,
>> a pair of vacuum gauges
>> are the way to go too sinc the carbs, you could be way out by just visua
lly checking
>> the throttle linkage.
>>
>> Ivor
>>
>> On 12 October 2012 06:28, U wrote:
>>
>> Hello List
>>
>> Yesterday I started the engine on the Kitfox IV I'm rebuilding. It's a 91
2UL from 1997 with 375 hours that I purchased about 6 months back. Before i
purchased it, was checked by a qualified Rotax mechanic who among other thi
ngs, changed a number of rubber parts.
>>
>> Before starting it, I manually checked the carb valves so that they were v
isually in a similar position. Anyway, the engine seems to have a rather st
rong vibration to it so I haven't run it for much more than 20-30 seconds at
the time. I haven't had the carb valves aligned exactly with a pressure ga
uge, but the vibration is much more than what I would expect if it were just
due to carb misalignment. And it doesn't seem to be the prop (a 3-blade Du
c whose pitch has been set with the appropriate instrument).
>>
>> I called the Rotax mechanic who checked it and he suggested checking the c
arbs for obstructions which I have now done (I found an insect inside the le
ft carb, but that didnt seem to change anything). I'll blow some compressed
air through them today just to make sure that everything is clean.
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try next? The closest
Rotax mechanic is a 5 hour drive from where I am in Sicily so I don't want t
o call him out before I have tried everything that I can do personally.
>>
>> Sacha
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-
List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
No blades should ever be swapped from a set. These are usually picked for
For their weight And balanced together with that hub. If you do try and mix blades
then they have to be balanced.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385228#385228
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Roger:
A friend of mine has a Rotax and a three blade prop (pusher). I do Dynamic
Balancing on Lycoming and Continental engines. I would like to do dynamic
balancing for him BUT, since there is not a ring-gear where would I place
the weights?
Barry
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> No blades should ever be swapped from a set. These are usually picked for
> For their weight And balanced together with that hub. If you do try and
> mix blades then they have to be balanced.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385228#385228
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Barry,
Unfortunately there are many different prop mounts that people use on their planes.
Some have backing plates and spinners, prop hub extensions, ext...
If they don't have a backing plate then you may be stuck with putting a large washer
on one of the prop mounting bolts. If you do that it could take a little
more weight because it is closer to the center of mass. Or you could get him
to put a backing plate and spinner on his plane and would benefit from better
air flow and the balance. With the backing plate you can then move the weight
out farther from the center.
Just so many of you know as a tidbit fact. It is more important and affects the
flow of air to have a spinner on a pusher over a tractor prop. The air flow is
affected more and in a positive way.
Which is funny because we seem to always put spinners on tractor props.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385246#385246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Roger:
Would you recommend a Rear bulkhead and Spinner combination for a Ryan S12.
It currently has a skullcap but I remember reading a lot about Long EZ
types with fancy spinners that improved cooling and added a bit of speed.
Barry
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> Unfortunately there are many different prop mounts that people use on
> their planes. Some have backing plates and spinners, prop hub extensions,
> ext...
> If they don't have a backing plate then you may be stuck with putting a
> large washer on one of the prop mounting bolts. If you do that it could
> take a little more weight because it is closer to the center of mass. Or
> you could get him to put a backing plate and spinner on his plane and would
> benefit from better air flow and the balance. With the backing plate you
> can then move the weight out farther from the center.
> Just so many of you know as a tidbit fact. It is more important and
> affects the flow of air to have a spinner on a pusher over a tractor prop.
> The air flow is affected more and in a positive way.
> Which is funny because we seem to always put spinners on tractor props.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385246#385246
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Thank you Roger
Is the balancing you refer to a DIY job or does it require specialized equipment?
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Sacha:
The post about balancing was posted by me, Barry.
There a a couple of ways of doing balancing - Static and Dynamic.
Static only requires a set of edge knives and spindle. This will put you
in the ball park.
Dynamic can be done - With quite difficulty - Using different old fashion
equipment such as the vibratalk or the string & washer. I went with a bit
more modern approach using a photo eye for RPM and an accelerometer to
measure the displacement.
Can it be done by the good builder? Yes. But, not many a builder will
invest an additional $1500 to $2500 for the equipment - Much easier to get
it done for $250 by an A&P.
Barry
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Sacha wrote:
>
> Thank you Roger
>
> Is the balancing you refer to a DIY job or does it require specialized
> equipment?
>
> Sacha
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
On behalf of my quest for a definitive understanding of the 912 i
electrical system requirements..
Has somebody found a circuit diagram of the central item called Fuse Box
yet?
Thanks,
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | U <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Barry,
No A&Ps where I am, otherwise I'd gladly farm out this kind of stuff, even i
f A&Ps here (I'm in Italy) are no way as cheap as the US :(
The prop seems to be fine now, so I'll just leave it as it is until I find s
omeone who can take a look at it...
On 14/ott/2012, at 15:20, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Sacha:
>
> The post about balancing was posted by me, Barry.
> There a a couple of ways of doing balancing - Static and Dynamic.
> Static only requires a set of edge knives and spindle. This will put you i
n the ball park.
> Dynamic can be done - With quite difficulty - Using different old fashion e
quipment such as the vibratalk or the string & washer. I went with a bit mo
re modern approach using a photo eye for RPM and an accelerometer to measure
the displacement.
> Can it be done by the good builder? Yes. But, not many a builder will in
vest an additional $1500 to $2500 for the equipment - Much easier to get it d
one for $250 by an A&P.
>
> Barry
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Sacha wrote:
>
> Thank you Roger
>
> Is the balancing you refer to a DIY job or does it require specialized equ
ipment?
>
> Sacha
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Sacha,
Three different types of balancing. One is done at the prop factory where they
make sure each blade weighs as close to the same as possible and makes sure the
hub is also in a balanced state. This is then sold as a set.
You can do two balances. One is the static balance and put very simply is just
like doing an auto wheel. You put it on a spindle or a balancer and look for
the heavy side which usually is on the bottom and then add weight at the 12 o'clock
position to make the prop equal weight all the way around so there is no
heavy side. Some hang it on string.
The last balance is a dynamic balance. I spent $4K for my dynamic prop balancer.
This machine is attached to the plane and you run it up near your cruise rpm
on the ground and add weights where it suggest to get rid of any out of balance
situations.
Solid props like wood or carbon fiber like a Warp are more likely to be out of
balance to a higher degree than the newer lighter hollow carbon fiber composite
props. Wood can also wick up moisture which will throw them out of balance.
If you have mis-matched blades for your prop they need to be checked for weight
and at least a static balance.
Hi Thom,
Your probably right about air flow with a fully exposed engine. I learned this
from an engineer at Sensenich that did his PHD on this very subject.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385314#385314
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Jan,
Unless info you need is in the Installation manual you probably won't see it until
they come out with a Heavy manit. manual. The lack of the Heavy manual is
one reason you don't see any classes on the injected engine yet. They are still
pulling all the last details together.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385323#385323
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Scaha:
If you want to do about a weeks worth of research you can find the needed
components to make up your own dynamic balancer. The cost would be about
$150 US.
The only area that you may have problems with is writing the computer code.
There are four fairly simple cods for a balancer:
1 - Choice of prop 2 blade & 3 blade. Others such as 4 and even 6 blade
are multiples of the 2 & 3 blade.
2 - RPM - This is done by identifying one blade and calling it #1 with a
reflective sticky strip. Then a simple photo eye sends and receives a
signal off the reflective strip. Count the reflections and you have RPM
3 - Accelerometer - Well, here you can go from simple to VERY elaborate
BUT! All the operations are the same. Simple as most balancers are use
ONLY one (1) axis. The 'Y' axis. The out put is a voltage that varies
in amplitude as the vibration increases. And the unit of vibration is IPS
(Inches Per Second) Yes you can use mmPS.
4 - This one becomes a little difficult You have to correlate the RPM
with the #1 blade to a o'clock position so you know WHERE in relation to
the #1 Blade the HEAVY point is. Here is where RPM is converted to SECONDS
and the VOLTAGE output of the accelerometer is given a plot of inches OR mm.
Once you know where the Heavy Vibration Point is you add 180 Deg to that
point to find where you should add weight to balance it out. YES - you
could also remove weight fro the heavy point BUT very few people do that.
AND that is probably a good idea.
NEXT PROBLEM: What if you find the heavy point is between blades?
Or, what if there is no place to mount your balance weight? This goes back
to the question I posted where a friend had a Rotax and a three blade prop
and NO place to mount the balance weights.
Well, What you can do is start playing with the indexing of the prop on the
drive shaft. This brings up all sorts on questions and old wives tails -
Since supposedly a compression stroke on the #1 cylinder does not matter
since there is a gear box.
Theory may say one thing while practicality says something else.
The proof is in the pudding.
There a one other way other than a computer program but that has its own
problems ... That would be by using an Oscilloscope and set up
a Lissajous Pattern showing RPM Vs Accelerometer.
Do the simple things first -
Static balance the prop.
Make sure the prop tracks true.
Check you mounts - vibration dampeners - airframe and all components
mounted on the engine as well as any cowlings.
Barry
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:32 PM, U wrote:
> Thanks Barry,
>
> No A&Ps where I am, otherwise I'd gladly farm out this kind of stuff, even
> if A&Ps here (I'm in Italy) are no way as cheap as the US :(
>
> The prop seems to be fine now, so I'll just leave it as it is until I find
> someone who can take a look at it...
>
>
> On 14/ott/2012, at 15:20, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Sacha:
>
> The post about balancing was posted by me, Barry.
> There a a couple of ways of doing balancing - Static and Dynamic.
> Static only requires a set of edge knives and spindle. This will put you
> in the ball park.
> Dynamic can be done - With quite difficulty - Using different old fashion
> equipment such as the vibratalk or the string & washer. I went with a bit
> more modern approach using a photo eye for RPM and an accelerometer to
> measure the displacement.
> Can it be done by the good builder? Yes. But, not many a builder will
> invest an additional $1500 to $2500 for the equipment - Much easier to get
> it done for $250 by an A&P.
>
> Barry
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Sacha wrote:
>
>>
>> Thank you Roger
>>
>> Is the balancing you refer to a DIY job or does it require specialized
>> equipment?
>>
>> Sacha
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
Hi Roger,
I hoped that someone would have "hacked" it for me by now. But there
does not seem to be a lot of amateur action on the 912 i. Which makes
sense ofcourse because it is an expensive toy.
The Installation Manual generates as many questions as it answers. Some
of the "what", none of the "why". And it contains errors.
It is not very urgent yet. I will save my list of questions and revisit
later.
Jan
On 10/15/2012 12:12 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> Unless info you need is in the Installation manual you probably won't see it
until they come out with a Heavy manit. manual. The lack of the Heavy manual is
one reason you don't see any classes on the injected engine yet. They are still
pulling all the last details together.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Roger, Barry, While adding a washer will certainly work why not paint the
prop tips and add more paint on the light blade? For a pusher, especially
one on a two stroke powered aircraft you will get a fair amount of oil and
dirt that sticks to the blades and affects the balance. Part of my yearly
maintenance is to clean and repaint the prop, test the balance, and use the
tip paint to get the prop to Rotax specs for a new prop, less than half a
gram of imbalance.
I also recommend Balance Masters prop dynamic prop balancers. They are very
light and really do the job of getting rid of that last little bit and
countering for bug and oil buildup during flight.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> Unfortunately there are many different prop mounts that people use on
> their planes. Some have backing plates and spinners, prop hub extensions,
> ext...
> If they don't have a backing plate then you may be stuck with putting a
> large washer on one of the prop mounting bolts. If you do that it could
> take a little more weight because it is closer to the center of mass. Or
> you could get him to put a backing plate and spinner on his plane and would
> benefit from better air flow and the balance. With the backing plate you
> can then move the weight out farther from the center.
> Just so many of you know as a tidbit fact. It is more important and
> affects the flow of air to have a spinner on a pusher over a tractor prop.
> The air flow is affected more and in a positive way.
> Which is funny because we seem to always put spinners on tractor props.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385246#385246
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Rick:
Painting the prop will work for STATIC balancing of the prop. But, what
happens when the heavy point is at a rotational degree location tat is out
in space. NO PHYSICAL location to add or remove weight? Not all the
balancing is of the prop. Things like Engine, Spinner and Mounts
contribute to vibration. AND how much paint is required? What happens
when the paint is worn off? Slow changes in vibration is
not noticeable over long periods of time... The body just gets use to it.
The plane and insturments on the other had react to it - Shortened life.
The idea of oil on the prop causing imbalance is very possible but also
very arguable. Since the prop is spinning wouldn't there be an equal
amount of oil spray on each blade? Who know, who cares... Just wipe the
prop down after each landing.
Balance Masters - This is another one of those theories/myths that has not
been truly proven or disproven. I did a little balancing experiment at
work with the same idea of a movable mass (mercury) and found it did NOT
always balance out, it was 2 time yes, 15 times no. And my testing was
Mercury Vs Accelerometer. Way too many variables to get repeated results.
The better way of doing a moving weight balance system is a Washing
Machine. Check it out - Pretty cool ideas there.
Barry
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Roger, Barry, While adding a washer will certainly work why not paint the
> prop tips and add more paint on the light blade? For a pusher, especially
> one on a two stroke powered aircraft you will get a fair amount of oil and
> dirt that sticks to the blades and affects the balance. Part of my yearly
> maintenance is to clean and repaint the prop, test the balance, and use the
> tip paint to get the prop to Rotax specs for a new prop, less than half a
> gram of imbalance.
> I also recommend Balance Masters prop dynamic prop balancers. They are
> very light and really do the job of getting rid of that last little bit and
> countering for bug and oil buildup during flight.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Hi Barry,
>>
>> Unfortunately there are many different prop mounts that people use on
>> their planes. Some have backing plates and spinners, prop hub extensions,
>> ext...
>> If they don't have a backing plate then you may be stuck with putting a
>> large washer on one of the prop mounting bolts. If you do that it could
>> take a little more weight because it is closer to the center of mass. Or
>> you could get him to put a backing plate and spinner on his plane and would
>> benefit from better air flow and the balance. With the backing plate you
>> can then move the weight out farther from the center.
>> Just so many of you know as a tidbit fact. It is more important and
>> affects the flow of air to have a spinner on a pusher over a tractor prop.
>> The air flow is affected more and in a positive way.
>> Which is funny because we seem to always put spinners on tractor props.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385246#385246
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 UL vibration |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Barry, Yep, the paint on the tips is just for static balance, but I can get
to .1 gram and it does seem to help. How much is my experiment. I shoot a
little heavy so as the volatiles flash off the prop moves toward balance.
Not perfect, but cheap and keeps the prop in good shape.
My testing of the Balance Masters concept was on my Shovelhead Harley. I
have them on both the crank and the clutch basket. It takes a little while
to settle in once I'm up to road speed, but I can feel the vibration go
away and I really notice the difference after a long haul. Since the engine
is bolted directly to the frame it is much more noticeable than on either
my airplane of trike, but they do seem to work there, too.
Rick
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:13 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Rick:
>
> Painting the prop will work for STATIC balancing of the prop. But, what
> happens when the heavy point is at a rotational degree location tat is out
> in space. NO PHYSICAL location to add or remove weight? Not all the
> balancing is of the prop. Things like Engine, Spinner and Mounts
> contribute to vibration. AND how much paint is required? What happens
> when the paint is worn off? Slow changes in vibration is
> not noticeable over long periods of time... The body just gets use to it.
> The plane and insturments on the other had react to it - Shortened life.
> The idea of oil on the prop causing imbalance is very possible but also
> very arguable. Since the prop is spinning wouldn't there be an equal
> amount of oil spray on each blade? Who know, who cares... Just wipe the
> prop down after each landing.
>
> Balance Masters - This is another one of those theories/myths that has not
> been truly proven or disproven. I did a little balancing experiment at
> work with the same idea of a movable mass (mercury) and found it did NOT
> always balance out, it was 2 time yes, 15 times no. And my testing was
> Mercury Vs Accelerometer. Way too many variables to get repeated results.
> The better way of doing a moving weight balance system is a Washing
> Machine. Check it out - Pretty cool ideas there.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Roger, Barry, While adding a washer will certainly work why not paint the
>> prop tips and add more paint on the light blade? For a pusher, especially
>> one on a two stroke powered aircraft you will get a fair amount of oil and
>> dirt that sticks to the blades and affects the balance. Part of my yearly
>> maintenance is to clean and repaint the prop, test the balance, and use the
>> tip paint to get the prop to Rotax specs for a new prop, less than half a
>> gram of imbalance.
>> I also recommend Balance Masters prop dynamic prop balancers. They are
>> very light and really do the job of getting rid of that last little bit and
>> countering for bug and oil buildup during flight.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>>
>>> ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Barry,
>>>
>>> Unfortunately there are many different prop mounts that people use on
>>> their planes. Some have backing plates and spinners, prop hub extensions,
>>> ext...
>>> If they don't have a backing plate then you may be stuck with putting a
>>> large washer on one of the prop mounting bolts. If you do that it could
>>> take a little more weight because it is closer to the center of mass. Or
>>> you could get him to put a backing plate and spinner on his plane and would
>>> benefit from better air flow and the balance. With the backing plate you
>>> can then move the weight out farther from the center.
>>> Just so many of you know as a tidbit fact. It is more important and
>>> affects the flow of air to have a spinner on a pusher over a tractor prop.
>>> The air flow is affected more and in a positive way.
>>> Which is funny because we seem to always put spinners on tractor props.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Roger Lee
>>> Tucson, Az.
>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385246#385246
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ==========
>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> le, List Admin.
>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zulu Delta
>> Mk IIIC
>> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>>
>> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
>> unhappy.
>> - Groucho Marx
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Radiator cleaning |
| From: | "Gtblu" <gtbjbell(at)gmail.com> |
Hi All,
I'm after some tips on how we clean oil cooler/ radiator fins of accumulated gunge
ie fine coating of oil from oil change drips mixed with dust. Even though
cooling is the least of my worries with these radiators, I would like them to
be clean. If anything they struggle to reach a satisfactory working temperature
despite being taped up over winter.
Thanks
Geoff Bell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385510#385510
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Geoff,
Flush the fins with either a water based or a regular solvent. Then flush well
with water to make sure here isn't any residual. Then I personally blow it out
to help dry it and remove any residual with air pressure.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385517#385517
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Geoff:
Use any product that would cut oil. It is all dependent on ease of access
to all sides of the cooler and if can you remove any drippings.
As I was writing this I had an idea... I just deleted all that I wrote here
is the Simple, Quick and Inexpensive idea... Get a can of Spray Engine
Cleaner at any automotive store. Most require a warm engine - Then Spray
the cleaner on - Then wait a few minutes - Then wash it off with a garden
hose <-- High pressure helps.
Let it dry thoroughly - Air Hose will help. And you are done.
Barry
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Gtblu wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm after some tips on how we clean oil cooler/ radiator fins of
> accumulated gunge ie fine coating of oil from oil change drips mixed with
> dust. Even though cooling is the least of my worries with these radiators,
> I would like them to be clean. If anything they struggle to reach a
> satisfactory working temperature despite being taped up over winter.
>
> Thanks
> Geoff Bell
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385510#385510
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Geoff, If you use engine cleaner be sure to read all the caveats on the
package. And make sure you can do it wherever. Last one I used softened my
asphalt driveway even though I had a plastic tarp on a frame to catch the
water. You don't need some guy walking up and introducing himself as the
EPA investigator (yes it does happen) For my money I'd go with one of the
Simple Green type cleaners that's certified for aluminum.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Geoff:
>
> Use any product that would cut oil. It is all dependent on ease of access
> to all sides of the cooler and if can you remove any drippings.
> As I was writing this I had an idea... I just deleted all that I wrote
> here is the Simple, Quick and Inexpensive idea... Get a can of Spray
> Engine Cleaner at any automotive store. Most require a warm engine - Then
> Spray the cleaner on - Then wait a few minutes - Then wash it off with a
> garden hose <-- High pressure helps.
> Let it dry thoroughly - Air Hose will help. And you are done.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Gtblu wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm after some tips on how we clean oil cooler/ radiator fins of
>> accumulated gunge ie fine coating of oil from oil change drips mixed with
>> dust. Even though cooling is the least of my worries with these radiators,
>> I would like them to be clean. If anything they struggle to reach a
>> satisfactory working temperature despite being taped up over winter.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Geoff Bell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385510#385510
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Water based biodegradable "Oil Eater" is an excellent choice and works very well
on greased clean ups including floors and greasy stove tops. Best non destructive
stuff I have used.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385594#385594
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Richard:
Yea, I heard that one about Simple Green for aluminum.
It really makes me wonder. SOAP, well any soap that cleans is ALKALINE and
alkaline will etch, attack or corrode aluminum... Use what ever of those
words works best for you. Alkaline is used to clean aluminum before doing
things like anodizing or painting. Yea, I know the term Acid Etch... Well
it is only a term used to sell a product, for some reason the public
understands ACID better than ALKALINE.
Any one out there have any litmus paper? Run your own test to prove what I
am saying.
EPA! Kick them in the garage-keys. Then shoot them with the same arrow
used to kill a deer. AHhhhh, New Jersey.... You can smell the dead deer
alongside the road. E.P.A. - Extremely Prejudice Agency <--- Against
Common Sense, they approved MTBE and Ethanol.
Barry
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Geoff, If you use engine cleaner be sure to read all the caveats on the
> package. And make sure you can do it wherever. Last one I used softened my
> asphalt driveway even though I had a plastic tarp on a frame to catch the
> water. You don't need some guy walking up and introducing himself as the
> EPA investigator (yes it does happen) For my money I'd go with one of the
> Simple Green type cleaners that's certified for aluminum.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Geoff:
>>
>> Use any product that would cut oil. It is all dependent on ease of
>> access to all sides of the cooler and if can you remove any drippings.
>> As I was writing this I had an idea... I just deleted all that I wrote
>> here is the Simple, Quick and Inexpensive idea... Get a can of Spray
>> Engine Cleaner at any automotive store. Most require a warm engine - Then
>> Spray the cleaner on - Then wait a few minutes - Then wash it off with a
>> garden hose <-- High pressure helps.
>> Let it dry thoroughly - Air Hose will help. And you are done.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Gtblu wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm after some tips on how we clean oil cooler/ radiator fins of
>>> accumulated gunge ie fine coating of oil from oil change drips mixed with
>>> dust. Even though cooling is the least of my worries with these radiators,
>>> I would like them to be clean. If anything they struggle to reach a
>>> satisfactory working temperature despite being taped up over winter.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Geoff Bell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385510#385510
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ==========
>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> le, List Admin.
>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> |
Hydrogen embrittlement. A number of solvents will cut hydrocarbons and
clean metal. Know whether what you are using does damage before taking
chances. Research the consequence of the wrong solvents.
Eight years ago Simple Green did not have an approved aluminum cleaner.
Now they have one which will not cause embrittlement, swelling of tefzel
insullation or galvanic action on the material you are trying to clean.
Now there is a Simple Green Aviation Cleaner.
Sodium Hydroxide is an alkaline. Try a scrap piece before you destroy
former aircraft grade parts. Know the MSDS. Heat and water can do some
amazing stuff.
John
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 6:42 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Richard:
>
> Yea, I heard that one about Simple Green for aluminum.
> It really makes me wonder. SOAP, well any soap that cleans is ALKALINE
> and alkaline will etch, attack or corrode aluminum... Use what ever of
> those words works best for you. Alkaline is used to clean aluminum before
> doing things like anodizing or painting. Yea, I know the term Acid Etch...
> Well it is only a term used to sell a product, for some reason the public
> understands ACID better than ALKALINE.
> Any one out there have any litmus paper? Run your own test to prove what
> I am saying.
> EPA! Kick them in the garage-keys. Then shoot them with the same arrow
> used to kill a deer. AHhhhh, New Jersey.... You can smell the dead deer
> alongside the road. E.P.A. - Extremely Prejudice Agency <--- Against
> Common Sense, they approved MTBE and Ethanol.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Geoff, If you use engine cleaner be sure to read all the caveats on the
>> package. And make sure you can do it wherever. Last one I used softened my
>> asphalt driveway even though I had a plastic tarp on a frame to catch the
>> water. You don't need some guy walking up and introducing himself as the
>> EPA investigator (yes it does happen) For my money I'd go with one of the
>> Simple Green type cleaners that's certified for aluminum.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>> Geoff:
>>>
>>> Use any product that would cut oil. It is all dependent on ease of
>>> access to all sides of the cooler and if can you remove any drippings.
>>> As I was writing this I had an idea... I just deleted all that I wrote
>>> here is the Simple, Quick and Inexpensive idea... Get a can of Spray
>>> Engine Cleaner at any automotive store. Most require a warm engine - Then
>>> Spray the cleaner on - Then wait a few minutes - Then wash it off with a
>>> garden hose <-- High pressure helps.
>>> Let it dry thoroughly - Air Hose will help. And you are done.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Gtblu wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm after some tips on how we clean oil cooler/ radiator fins of
>>>> accumulated gunge ie fine coating of oil from oil change drips mixed with
>>>> dust. Even though cooling is the least of my worries with these radiators,
>>>> I would like them to be clean. If anything they struggle to reach a
>>>> satisfactory working temperature despite being taped up over winter.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Geoff Bell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385510#385510
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -List" target="_blank">
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> le, List Admin.
>>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zulu Delta
>> Mk IIIC
>> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>>
>> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
>> unhappy.
>> - Groucho Marx
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radiator cleaning |
| From: | "Gtblu" <gtbjbell(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks guys for tips. I'm inclined to think the oil and dust is better than embrittlement.
(Nice term! ) I'm not being compromised on the cooling process, so
it is only cosmetic, and to see if there are leaks developing.
cheers
Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385649#385649
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Hi List
I had to replace my fuel pump today and bought the new fuel pump, part number 893110.
Anyone know what the third barb is for (looks like a fuel overflow) and
how it should be installed? I can't find the manual for it anywhere on the web.
Regards
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joeing701(at)simnet.is |
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
Hello Sacha.
You are correct, it is a fuel overflow if the pump fails.
Best regards,
Johann G.
Z701
----- Upprunaleg skilabo -----
Fr: "Sacha"
Til: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: rijudagur, 23. Oktber, 2012 12:55:57
Efni: RotaxEngines-List: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110
Hi List
I had to replace my fuel pump today and bought the new fuel pump, part number 893110.
Anyone know what the third barb is for (looks like a fuel overflow) and
how it should be installed? I can't find the manual for it anywhere on the web.
Regards
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Johann
Does anyone have a pointer to some installation instructions? I have asked the
retailer and Rotax so far but still waiting for a response.
Sacha
On Oct 23, 2012, at 15:46, joeing701(at)simnet.is wrote:
>
> Hello Sacha.
>
> You are correct, it is a fuel overflow if the pump fails.
>
> Best regards,
> Johann G.
> Z701
>
> ----- Upprunaleg skilabo -----
> Fr: "Sacha"
> Til: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: rijudagur, 23. Oktber, 2012 12:55:57
> Efni: RotaxEngines-List: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110
>
>
> Hi List
> I had to replace my fuel pump today and bought the new fuel pump, part number
893110. Anyone know what the third barb is for (looks like a fuel overflow)
and how it should be installed? I can't find the manual for it anywhere on the
web.
> Regards
> Sacha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Sacha,
Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nipple. It is
a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the cowling or
opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385903#385903
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Johann and Roger
Thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line?
Better to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon
(yellow) plastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not
attack it and possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your
venting. Why is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
Barry
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Sacha,
>
> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nipple.
> It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the
> cowling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385903#385903
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
According to Rotax that can change the pressure. And yes, Rotax does want a line
connected to that nipple as opposed to not attaching a hose to it (to prevent
fuel from dripping down onto the hot exhaust)
-
Bob Comperini
On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Why is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>
> Barry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
Barry,
You should'nt doubt what Roger says. He knows more about Rotax 9 series eng
ines than anyone I know. I use the clear plastic hose from an oxygen cannul
a for the overflow on my Rotax carbs. Works great and last for years.
Pete
On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line? B
etter to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon (yellow) p
lastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not attack it a
nd possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your venting. Why i
s putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Sacha,
>>
>> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nipple.
It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the co
wling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385903#385903
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-
List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
It's just a drain hose if the fuel pump pukes any fuel. It most likely won't happen.
It doesn't hold any fuel and it should just sit there for the "just in case"
moment. It's just a way to route any dumped fuel away from the engine if
such an event would occur.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385953#385953
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Pete:
Davehr'yay, noh praver'yay --- Trust but Verify.
Only a fool follows blindly. And why would you use such an odd ball
undocumented item (your oxygen cannula tubing)? There are clearly better
items for the handling of gas; approved items.. All you have to do is read
AC 43-13.
Roger's knowledge in not in question. His reasoning is. Maybe Roger would
explain why he recommends non approved item for handling gas.
W.W.R.D. [What Would Rotax Do?]
I just read Roger's response: " It's just a drain hose if the fuel pump
pukes any fuel. It most likely won't happen. It doesn't hold any fuel and
it should just sit there for the "just in case" moment. It's just a way to
route any dumped fuel away from the engine if such an event would occur."
This is acceptable to you! If it is so benign why not use a paper straw?
It would be so much easier to use a proper item that is fuel approved. It
is not like it is expensive or difficult to obtain.
Barry
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fos4EPUOsHo?feature=player_embedded
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Pete Christensen <
pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> You should'nt doubt what Roger says. He knows more about Rotax 9 series
> engines than anyone I know. I use the clear plastic hose from an oxygen
> cannula for the overflow on my Rotax carbs. Works great and last for years.
>
> Pete
>
> On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line?
> Better to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon
> (yellow) plastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not
> attack it and possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your
> venting. Why is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Hi Sacha,
>>
>> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nipple.
>> It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the
>> cowling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
I fly an experimental. I'm experimenting. Get over it.
Pete
On Oct 25, 2012, at 12:31 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Pete:
>
> Davehr'yay, noh praver'yay --- Trust but Verify.
>
> Only a fool follows blindly. And why would you use such an odd ball undoc
umented item (your oxygen cannula tubing)? There are clearly better items f
or the handling of gas; approved items.. All you have to do is read AC 43-1
3.
>
> Roger's knowledge in not in question. His reasoning is. Maybe Roger would
explain why he recommends non approved item for handling gas.
> W.W.R.D. [What Would Rotax Do?]
>
> I just read Roger's response: " It's just a drain hose if the fuel pump p
ukes any fuel. It most likely won't happen. It doesn't hold any fuel and it s
hould just sit there for the "just in case" moment. It's just a way to route
any dumped fuel away from the engine if such an event would occur."
> This is acceptable to you! If it is so benign why not use a paper straw?
It would be so much easier to use a proper item that is fuel approved. It i
s not like it is expensive or difficult to obtain.
>
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fos4EPUOsHo?feature=player_embedded
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Pete Christensen wrote:
>> Barry,
>>
>> You should'nt doubt what Roger says. He knows more about Rotax 9 series e
ngines than anyone I know. I use the clear plastic hose from an oxygen cann
ula for the overflow on my Rotax carbs. Works great and last for years.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>> If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line?
Better to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon (yello
w) plastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not attack i
t and possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your venting. W
hy is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
om>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sacha,
>>>>
>>>> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nippl
e. It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the c
owling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Roger Lee
>>>> Tucson, Az.
>>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>>>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>>>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>>>> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Pete:
Did you build the plane?
Barry
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Pete Christensen <
pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I fly an experimental. I'm experimenting. Get over it.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2012, at 12:31 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Pete:
>
> Davehr'yay, noh praver'yay --- Trust but Verify.
>
> Only a fool follows blindly. And why would you use such an odd ball
> undocumented item (your oxygen cannula tubing)? There are clearly better
> items for the handling of gas; approved items.. All you have to do is read
> AC 43-13.
>
> Roger's knowledge in not in question. His reasoning is. Maybe Roger would
> explain why he recommends non approved item for handling gas.
> W.W.R.D. [What Would Rotax Do?]
>
> I just read Roger's response: " It's just a drain hose if the fuel pump
> pukes any fuel. It most likely won't happen. It doesn't hold any fuel and
> it should just sit there for the "just in case" moment. It's just a way to
> route any dumped fuel away from the engine if such an event would occur."
> This is acceptable to you! If it is so benign why not use a paper straw?
> It would be so much easier to use a proper item that is fuel approved. It
> is not like it is expensive or difficult to obtain.
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fos4EPUOsHo?feature=player_embedded
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Pete Christensen <
> pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Barry,
>>
>> You should'nt doubt what Roger says. He knows more about Rotax 9 series
>> engines than anyone I know. I use the clear plastic hose from an oxygen
>> cannula for the overflow on my Rotax carbs. Works great and last for years.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>> If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line?
>> Better to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon
>> (yellow) plastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not
>> attack it and possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your
>> venting. Why is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>>
>>> ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Sacha,
>>>
>>> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third
>>> nipple. It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge
>>> of the cowling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Roger Lee
>>> Tucson, Az.
>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>>
>>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New fuel pump for 912 part number 893110 |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Barry, Here's Roger's original recommendation:
"Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third nipple.
It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge of the
cowling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream."
I don't see where his recommendation is to use something that's completely
incompatible with gasoline. Plastic takes in a lot of territory. I've
attached McMaster Carr's Chemical Compatibility chart for just one type
that I picked out, PVC. Some is recommended for gasoline, some isn't, and
this chart is for tubing that will hold gasoline, not just sit there
holding nothing but air, waiting for some gas to run through it.
Pete didn't specify anything either, other oxygen system cannula tubing. No
chemical formulation. Again, takes in a lot of territory.
How exactly is your wise council any better? Use aluminum you say. What
alloy? What hardness? Work hardened? Heat treated? WTF?
My ex-wife liked to leap to conclusions and start running her mouth. That
was the primary reason I booted her fat butt out the door.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:52 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Pete:
>
> Did you build the plane?
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Pete Christensen <
> pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> I fly an experimental. I'm experimenting. Get over it.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2012, at 12:31 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>> Pete:
>>
>> Davehr'yay, noh praver'yay --- Trust but Verify.
>>
>> Only a fool follows blindly. And why would you use such an odd ball
>> undocumented item (your oxygen cannula tubing)? There are clearly
>> better items for the handling of gas; approved items.. All you have to do
>> is read AC 43-13.
>>
>> Roger's knowledge in not in question. His reasoning is. Maybe Roger
>> would explain why he recommends non approved item for handling gas.
>> W.W.R.D. [What Would Rotax Do?]
>>
>> I just read Roger's response: " It's just a drain hose if the fuel pump
>> pukes any fuel. It most likely won't happen. It doesn't hold any fuel and
>> it should just sit there for the "just in case" moment. It's just a way to
>> route any dumped fuel away from the engine if such an event would occur."
>> This is acceptable to you! If it is so benign why not use a paper straw?
>> It would be so much easier to use a proper item that is fuel approved. It
>> is not like it is expensive or difficult to obtain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fos4EPUOsHo?feature=player_embedded
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Pete Christensen <
>> pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Barry,
>>>
>>> You should'nt doubt what Roger says. He knows more about Rotax 9 series
>>> engines than anyone I know. I use the clear plastic hose from an oxygen
>>> cannula for the overflow on my Rotax carbs. Works great and last for years.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>>
>>> If it is a drain line for gas why would you put on a clear plastic line?
>>> Better to use an aluminum line or if you are really pressed a Tygon
>>> (yellow) plastic line. At least with the Tygon you know the fuel will not
>>> attack it and possibly cause a collapsed line; where you will loose your
>>> venting. Why is putting it out in the air stream a problem?
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sacha,
>>>>
>>>> Attach a hose (it can be of the clear plastic type) to your third
>>>> nipple. It is a drain. Run it down and out any where you want to the edge
>>>> of the cowling or opening. Do not put it out in the air stream.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Roger Lee
>>>> Tucson, Az.
>>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>>>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>>>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>>>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>>>
>>>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> 3D============================================
>> >
>>
>> 3D============================================
>> 3D============================================
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Greetings all:
I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:
I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. I just unwrapped it and would
like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been
sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the engine (dry) to get
the internal pump to move oil. I have a 12 volt oil pump, return tank and accessories
to accomplish this, however I have a question:
Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circulate oil
throughout the gallery? I am concerned the pump will not pass oil if the engine
is not turning.
Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there
unless there is some reason not to. My preference is to feed through the larger
oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.
I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return hosebarb
and back into the return tank.
Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?
Thanks, Jim
Kolb Mark3X
912ULS
80% completed
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Jim,
You will need to do a good oil purge.
Here is the Rotax link to a video:
http://www.rotax-owner.com/information-reg/expanded-video-instructions-reg/33-exp-si-912-018
In the Installation manual section 13.10 page 78 (Oil Purge) are the same instructions.
I would advise that you go to the Rotax Owner website and download the 5 manuals
you will need for your engine. They will be very helpful and almost all your
answers will be there.
This is very important for this first start, but is easy to do. If It was my first
start I would do it twice. It's very easy. twice just means rotating the prop
twice as much.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386073#386073
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Hi Roger,
Thanks for the response. I agree on the value of the Rotax Owner site. For years
I got the updates, and am now reviewing the latest docs. I just joined the pay
portion (is paying to play new?) and reviewed the video. The procedure does
make sense, and I recall in the maintenance class they stressed the critical
importance of purging. That said my question is can I pump oil into the engine
*without* rotating it?
The procedure suggests air pressure against the tank to force oil into a turning
engine. I am fortunate to have an electric oil pump so I don't need the air
pressure.
I am several months from engine start, and have had the engine in its crate, wrapped
in plastic for years. I want to circulate oil without rotating what I fear
are dry (or nearly so) bearing journals.
When engine start comes I will follow this purging procedure to the letter.
Until then I wish to circulate oil, without first turning the engine.
I will re-examine the engine docs to look at the oil pump/bypass topology, but
to save time I was asking if anyone on this list knew if oil can be pumped past
a stationary oil pump.
My intent is to rig up my system and pump fresh oil through the gallery several
times a month until engine installation. If I am lucky perhaps that will make
up for having a new engine in mothballs so long.
Do you (or anyone else) know if a non-turning engine will allow oil under pressure
past it?
Thanks, Jim
--- On Fri, 10/26/12, Roger Lee wrote:
> From: Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Friday, October 26, 2012, 3:47 PM
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: "Roger Lee"
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> You will need to do a good oil purge.
>
> Here is the Rotax link to a video:
> http://www.rotax-owner.com/information-reg/expanded-video-instructions-reg/33-exp-si-912-018
>
> In the Installation manual section 13.10 page 78 (Oil Purge)
> are the same instructions.
>
> I would advise that you go to the Rotax Owner website and
> download the 5 manuals you will need for your engine. They
> will be very helpful and almost all your answers will be
> there.
>
> This is very important for this first start, but is easy to
> do. If It was my first start I would do it twice. It's very
> easy. twice just means rotating the prop twice as much.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386073#386073
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Your going to have to rotate the engine to get into critical areas and past the
pump.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386086#386086
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Jim,
Roger is correct that you must rotate the engine to get oil through the system
even if externally pressurizing the inlet side of the pump. The reason is that
the oil pump on the front of the engine is a positive displacement pump, which
will allow very little oil (if any) to pass if it is not turning. BTW, when
the engine is running, the inlet side of the oil pump is at lower than atmospheric
pressure, never pressurized.
I'm not recommending this but you could pressurize the oil system on the outlet
side of the pump through the oil pressure relief valve port. If you do this,
make sure you remove the relief valve and spring and that the applied pressure
is controlled within the allowable range. I don't think it is necessary to do
this but in theory it could be done this way.
With a $20,000 engine, why not just follow the manufacturer's directions? It is
certainly simpler and Rotax doesn't leave much to chance.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386100#386100
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Thom, Roger:
Appreciate the confirmation and suggestions! Point certainly taken regarding adherence
to the Rotax procedure. My problem is I waited so long to maintain this
engine I am concerned the journals will score if I rotate the engine without
adding oil first. I regret not following the Rotax procedure 5 years ago.
I had the same though with regard to pressurizing the upstream side of the galley,
and am studying the gallery details in the manual now.
Thanks all, and have a great weekend.
-Jim
--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Thom Riddle wrote:
> From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 5:14 AM
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: "Thom Riddle"
>
> Jim,
> Roger is correct that you must rotate the engine to get oil
> through the system even if externally pressurizing the inlet
> side of the pump. The reason is that the oil pump on
> the front of the engine is a positive displacement pump,
> which will allow very little oil (if any) to pass if it is
> not turning. BTW, when the engine is running, the inlet side
> of the oil pump is at lower than atmospheric pressure, never
> pressurized.
>
> I'm not recommending this but you could pressurize the oil
> system on the outlet side of the pump through the oil
> pressure relief valve port. If you do this, make sure you
> remove the relief valve and spring and that the applied
> pressure is controlled within the allowable range. I don't
> think it is necessary to do this but in theory it could be
> done this way.
>
> With a $20,000 engine, why not just follow the
> manufacturer's directions? It is certainly simpler and Rotax
> doesn't leave much to chance.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
>
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
>
> Diamond Katana DA20-A1
> Rotax 912 F3
>
> Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
> - Anonymous
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386100#386100
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Jim:
As they say your idea is Spot On. The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to
saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine.
To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter
productive.
Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:
1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?
2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with
a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?
When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:
1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil? If so use it.
2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can
obtain. Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.
Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of
the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.
Special Note: Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2
It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more
than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.
Have you been doing that?
If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.
Why do i say that? Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT
the gearbox gears. Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil -
SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.
So, how should you Pre-Oil?
1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .
2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction. It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5)
- Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).
3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through. If it does
not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.
4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. It can handle oil pressure up
to 150 PSI. YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil
at that pressure.
5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the
pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal
operation.
6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should
pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the
pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.
7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil
Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up. There will probably be only a small
deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short time.
8 - Now, here I have to ask a question. Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a
reverse flow check valve? If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow
direction.
If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.
9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction
- From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the
OUTPUT side of the Engine. See note 8.
10 - Now, here you have some options:
a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil
that makes it to the exit of the engine. And remember to hook up a
overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7). I really doubt if this will ever
happen, or...
b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure
to spray the oil all around inside the engine.
The Pictures:
Pic #1 is a general overview
Pic #2 shows the fittings. One thing you can not see is the inside of the
unit. From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes
to the bottom of the unit.
You will see a Shrader valve on top. I hook up a 12VDC portable tire pump.
Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and running
when you open the valve.
This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month
or more.
Barry
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
>
> Greetings all:
>
> I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:
>
> I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. I just unwrapped it
> and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the
> engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the
> engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. I have a 12 volt oil
> pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a
> question:
>
> Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to
> circulate oil throughout the gallery? I am concerned the pump will not
> pass oil if the engine is not turning.
>
> Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from
> there unless there is some reason not to. My preference is to feed through
> the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.
>
> I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return
> hosebarb and back into the return tank.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?
>
> Thanks, Jim
>
> Kolb Mark3X
> 912ULS
> 80% completed
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Hi Barry,=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AThanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly
dry engine=0Abeing rotated to introduce oil.=C2- Your pvc=0Apre-oiler is
really cool!=C2- Thanks for the=0Apics.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI purchased the
engine around 2005.=C2- I peeled back the plastic, took a bunch of=0Apic
tures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and reassembled the crat
e.=C2- The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my=0Aspare bedroom, tempe
rature controlled.=C2-=0AFast forward to last week.=C2- I=0Aopened it a
nd pulled the engine out of the crate.=C2- Close inspection showed the en
gine was still=0Aexternally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants o
f the oil used during=0Athe test run at the factory.=C2- All good=0Anews
I think.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AAfter much consideration I decided to inject oil
into the=0Apressure sender port.=C2- As was confirmed=0Aby this list
=99s experts the oil pump is a positive displacement type (no=0Asurprise
) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the pump if I desire gallery=0Aoil
pressure without turning.=C2- I didn=99t=0Ainject at the pressure r
egulator as suggested cause I didn=99t have ready access=0Ato the met
ric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn=99t sure if I would simply
=0Avent oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the
=0Aregulator apart.=C2- So I went with the=0Apressure sensor port.=0A=0A
=C2-=0A=0AI removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn=0Amotorc
ycle formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40
=0Ato 55psi from a 12 volt pump.=C2- Added a=0Atee in the pipe and 6 feet
of sealed tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator=0Aso the pump
doesn=99t chatter.=C2- Worked out=0Ato 3 seconds of pump runtime to
12 seconds of resting.=C2- After running all day the pump wasn=99t
even=0Awarm.=C2- I opened the valve covers and saw=0Aoil coming out the
pushrods, confirming the oil gallery is pressurized.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0ANext
I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see=0Apic), and used it
as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.=C2- The level was
also high enough to submerge=0Athe bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic
of open gearbox from the servicing=0Aclass).=C2- Then I leaned the engine
left=0Aand right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh
oil around=0Ain the gearbox.=C2- Drained the crankcase,=0Aput a couple of
tablespoon of oil into each sparkplug hole.=C2- Finally, after hours of
oil circulation I=0Aturned the engine over, plugs still out.=C2-=0A=0A=0A
=C2-=0A=0ANote I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.=C2- I see
m to have misplaced my oil tank.=C2- I will look around for it a little l
onger=0Abefore I worry about buying another!=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI offer this
only for entertainment purposes and don=99t=0Asuggest anyone perform
this procedure without approval from your Rotax=0Adealer.=C2- My engine i
s long out of=0Awarranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome.=C2-
I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime=0Auntil I am ready to sta
rt it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm=0Alifter status pe
r the Rotax procedure. =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A-Jim
--- On Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM
Jim:
As they say your idea is Spot On. =C2-The=C2-entire=C2-idea of Pre-Oi
ling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the
the engine. =C2-To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oi
ling is counter productive. =C2-=0A=0A
Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:1 - Where
was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?=0A=0A2 - Was th
e engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a=C2-preservative=C2-oi
l that does not run off the engine areas?
When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:=0A=0A1 - Does
Rotax make a storage oil? =C2-If so use it.2 - If Rotax does NOT make a
storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain. =C2-Remember you are NOT
running on this oil ONLY storing with it. =C2-=0A=0AYes - You do run the
engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT, that i
s a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.
Special Note: =C2-Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2=0A=0AIt states that
=C2-preservation=C2-is for only one year and if stored for more than on
e year the=C2-preservation=C2-procedure should be repeated every year.
=C2-Have you been doing that?=0A=0AIf not - Start with that procedure pri
or to Pre-Oiling.Why do i say that? =C2-Only because Pre-Oiling takes car
e of the engine NOT the gearbox gears. =C2-Do everything you can to get t
hose gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.=0A=0ASo, ho
w should you Pre-Oil?1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .2 -
Notice the Oil Flow Direction. =C2-It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5
) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).=0A
=0A3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through. =C2-If i
t does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.4 - This
picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. =C2-It can handle oil pressure up to 15
0 PSI. =C2-YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil
at that pressure. =C2-=0A=0A5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any
valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will cover the same
areas as during normal operation.6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure
Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating
pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier=C2-quickly as
volume of oil drops.=0A=0A7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/e
ngine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up. =C2-There wil
l probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier=C2-is applying
pressure for only a short time.=0A=0A8 - Now, here I have to ask a questio
n. =C2-Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow check valve? =C2-
If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow direction.=C2-If NO then -
Use the Pre-Oilier=C2-in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.=0A=0A9 -
When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction - Fr
om the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the OUTPUT si
de of the Engine. =C2-See note 8. =C2-=0A=0A10 - Now, here you have som
e options: =C2-a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it wil
l catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the engine. =C2-And remember
to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7). =C2-I really doubt if
this will ever happen, or...=0A=0Ab> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hos
e so it develops a good pressure to spray the oil all around inside the eng
ine.
The Pictures:=0APic #1 is a general overview=C2-Pic #2 shows the fittings
. =C2-One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit. =C2-From the
oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom of
the unit.=0AYou will see a Shrader valve on top. =C2-I hook up a 12VDC p
ortable=C2-tire pump. =C2-Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave
the tire pump on and running when you open the valve. =C2-
=0AThis system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a mont
h or more.=0A
Barry
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
m>
=0A=0A=0A
=0AGreetings all:
=0A
=0AI looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:
=0A
=0AI have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. =C2-I just unwrappe
d it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the
engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the e
ngine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. =C2-I have a 12 volt oi
l pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a qu
estion:
=0A=0A=0A
=0ACan I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circ
ulate oil throughout the gallery? =C2-I am concerned the pump will not pa
ss oil if the engine is not turning.
=0A
=0AAlternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from
there unless there is some reason not to. =C2-My preference is to feed t
hrough the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the ga
llery.
=0A=0A=0A
=0AI plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return ho
sebarb and back into the return tank.
=0A
=0AAny thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?
=0A
=0AThanks, Jim
=0A
=0AKolb Mark3X
=0A912ULS
=0A80% completed
=0A
=0A==========
=0A-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines
-List
=0A==========
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com
=0A==========
=0Ale, List Admin.
=0A="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A==========
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Jim Clayton a crit :
>
> I offer this only for entertainment purposes and dont suggest anyone
> perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer. My
> engine is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the
> outcome. I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am
> ready to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm
> lifter status per the Rotax procedure.
>
>
>
Jim,
In my opinion, you did well, though it might be overkill. Nothing wrong
with having the engine thoroughly oiled before use.
Someone mentioned possible problems with the gearbox : you can't do much
harm to the gears by turning the engine by hand a few turns, even if
they happened to be dry.
Very few jounals in the Rotax, so the main issue migth be moving the
pistons in a dry cylinder. Not sure, but you certainly took care of this
by injecting some oil through the plug holes before turning anything.
Apart from this, no much risk with piston pins etc...
If correctly drained, too much oil will not harm the engine.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
just a thought on a bit off subject.. but looking at the pic of the back side of
the gearbox...
has anyone thought of plugging the oil journal holes in a gearbox... tapping a
plug hole in the top and filling it with 90 gear oil... would solve a lot of
issues with 912 and the oil debates. and the problems with excessive wear.. i
am not sure of effects of slipper clutching.. just talking bout gears only boxes....
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386255#386255
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Jim:
Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last
day or so.
HEY :-) Really great contraption. I love your set up. You have just
done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would. The idea of the sight
tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a great idea. Now you now
know exactly the level oil and what was covered. Good Job Old Man.
Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up.
It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will
notice IF they pay attention. The prop blast will disperse things rapidly.
Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue. Lots of moving parts and
lots of metal on metal contact areas. If you were to:
1 - Remove the spark plugs.
2 - Ground the Mags.
3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND -
4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/2" Electric
Drill.
You will have covered all bases and will have that Totally Warm Fuzzy
Feeling.
5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders prior to turning over
the engine by hand.
The only really rough Metal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra
oil there worn hurt.
Great Job - Keep us informed.
Barry
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
> Hi Barry,****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly dry engine being rotated
> to introduce oil. Your pvc pre-oiler is really cool! Thanks for the pic
s.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> I purchased the engine around 2005. I peeled back the plastic, took a
> bunch of pictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and
> reassembled the crate. The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my spare
> bedroom, temperature controlled. Fast forward to last week. I opened it
> and pulled the engine out of the crate. Close inspection showed the engi
ne
> was still externally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants of the
> oil used during the test run at the factory. All good news I think.****
>
> ** **
>
> After much consideration I decided to inject oil into the pressure sender
> port. As was confirmed by this list=92s experts the oil pump is a positi
ve
> displacement type (no surprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the
> pump if I desire gallery oil pressure without turning. I didn=92t inject
at
> the pressure regulator as suggested cause I didn=92t have ready access to
the
> metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn=92t sure if I would simply
vent
> oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the regulat
or
> apart. So I went with the pressure sensor port.****
>
> ** **
>
> I removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn motorcycle
> formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40 to
> 55psi from a 12 volt pump. Added a tee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed
> tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator so the pump doesn=92t
> chatter. Worked out to 3 seconds of pump runtime to 12 seconds of
> resting. After running all day the pump wasn=92t even warm. I opened th
e
> valve covers and saw oil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil
> gallery is pressurized.****
>
> ** **
>
> Next I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see pic), and use
d
> it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase. The level was
> also high enough to submerge the bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic o
f
> open gearbox from the servicing class). Then I leaned the engine left an
d
> right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh oil around
> in the gearbox. Drained the crankcase, put a couple of tablespoon of oil
> into each sparkplug hole. Finally, after hours of oil circulation I turn
ed
> the engine over, plugs still out. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Note I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply. I seem to have
> misplaced my oil tank. I will look around for it a little longer before
I
> worry about buying another!****
>
> ** **
>
> I offer this only for entertainment purposes and don=92t suggest anyone
> perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer. My engin
e
> is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome. I
> intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am ready to start
> it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm lifter status per t
he
> Rotax procedure. ****
>
> ** **
>
> -Jim****
>
> --- On *Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE * wrote:
>
>
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM
>
> Jim:
>
> As they say your idea is Spot On. The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to
> saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engin
e.
> To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter
> productive.
>
> Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:
> 1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?
> 2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with
> a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?
>
> When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:
> 1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil? If so use it.
> 2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can
> obtain. Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.
> Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of
> the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.
>
> Special Note: Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2
> It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more
> than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.
> Have you been doing that?
> If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.
> Why do i say that? Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT
> the gearbox gears. Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil
-
> SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.
> So, how should you Pre-Oil?
> 1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .
> 2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction. It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5
)
> - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).
> 3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through. If it does
> not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.
> 4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. It can handle oil pressure up
> to 150 PSI. YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oi
l
> at that pressure.
> 5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the
> pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal
> operation.
> 6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should
> pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the
> pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.
> 7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil
> Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up. There will probably be only a sma
ll
> deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short tim
e.
> 8 - Now, here I have to ask a question. Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have
a
> reverse flow check valve? If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow
> direction.
> If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.
> 9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each directio
n
> - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the
> OUTPUT side of the Engine. See note 8.
> 10 - Now, here you have some options:
> a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil
> that makes it to the exit of the engine. And remember to hook up a
> overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7). I really doubt if this will ever
> happen, or...
> b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure
> to spray the oil all around inside the engine.
>
> The Pictures:
> Pic #1 is a general overview
> Pic #2 shows the fittings. One thing you can not see is the inside of th
e
> unit. From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes
> to the bottom of the unit.
> You will see a Shrader valve on top. I hook up a 12VDC portable tire
> pump. Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and
> running when you open the valve.
>
> This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month
> or more.
>
> Barry
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton http://mc/
compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
tp://mc/compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com>
> >
>
> Greetings all:
>
> I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:
>
> I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. I just unwrapped it
> and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the
> engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the
> engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. I have a 12 volt oil
> pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a
> question:
>
> Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to
> circulate oil throughout the gallery? I am concerned the pump will not
> pass oil if the engine is not turning.
>
> Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from
> there unless there is some reason not to. My preference is to feed throu
gh
> the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery
.
>
> I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return
> hosebarb and back into the return tank.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?
>
> Thanks, Jim
>
> Kolb Mark3X
> 912ULS
> 80% completed
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Hi Barry/All:
Thanks! =C2-I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes
me feel better about storing the engine for so long :-)
I agree with respect to the gearbox. =C2-While I did lean the engine forw
ard while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big bearings on
the prop shaft. =C2-I was thinking of again removing the fuel pump, putti
ng a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up. =C2-Then with several
helpers turning the engine upside down. =C2-This would trap oil at the=C2
-prop-shaft=C2-end. =C2-Leave it=C2-upside down=C2-for perhaps a
couple of hours to marinate two big bearings. =C2-Looking at the photos I
took in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash
to keep those two lubed. =C2-I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soa
k in enough oil to suffice. =C2-Once done I will turn it right side up, a
nd allow all the oil to drain.
I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this system w
ill stay in place awhile. =C2-Wish I could find the oil tank as the open
bucket has to go. =C2-I will post=C2-separately=C2-asking if anyone h
as a spare oil tank (I know...not likely).
-Jim
--- On Wed, 10/31/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2012, 7:15 AM
Jim:
Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last
day or so. =C2-
=0AHEY =C2-:-) =C2-Really great contraption. =C2-I love your set up.
=C2-You have just done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would. =C2
-The idea of the sight tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a gre
at idea. =C2-Now you now know=C2-exactly=C2-the level oil and what wa
s covered. =C2-Good Job Old Man.=0A
Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up.
=C2-It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will
notice IF they pay attention. =C2-The prop blast will disperse things ra
pidly.=0A
Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue. =C2-Lots of moving parts
and lots of metal on metal contact areas. =C2-If you were to:1 - Remove t
he spark plugs.=0A2 - Ground the Mags.3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND
=C2--=C2-4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/
2" Electric Drill.=0AYou will have covered all bases and will have that Tot
ally Warm Fuzzy Feeling.5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders
prior to turning over the engine by hand. =C2-=0AThe only really rough M
etal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra oil there worn hurt.
Great Job - Keep us informed.=0A
Barry
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
=0A=0AHi Barry,=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AThanks for the confirmation regarding a po
ssibly dry engine=0Abeing rotated to introduce oil.=C2- Your pvc=0Apre-oi
ler is really cool!=C2- Thanks for the=0Apics.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI purchas
ed the engine around 2005.=C2- I peeled back the plastic, took a bunch of
=0Apictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and reassembled th
e crate.=C2- The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my=0Aspare bedroom,
temperature controlled.=C2-=0AFast forward to last week.=C2- I=0Aopene
d it and pulled the engine out of the crate.=C2- Close inspection showed
the engine was still=0Aexternally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remn
ants of the oil used during=0Athe test run at the factory.=C2- All good
=0Anews I think.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AAfter much consideration I decided to inj
ect oil into the=0Apressure sender port.=C2- As was confirmed=0Aby this l
ist=99s experts the oil pump is a positive displacement type (no=0Asu
rprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the pump if I desire gallery
=0Aoil pressure without turning.=C2- I didn=99t=0Ainject at the pre
ssure regulator as suggested cause I didn=99t have ready access=0Ato
the metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn=99t sure if I would
simply=0Avent oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I too
k the=0Aregulator apart.=C2- So I went with the=0Apressure sensor port.
=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn=0A
motorcycle formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) a
t 40=0Ato 55psi from a 12 volt pump.=C2- Added a=0Atee in the pipe and 6
feet of sealed tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator=0Aso the p
ump doesn=99t chatter.=C2- Worked out=0Ato 3 seconds of pump runtim
e to 12 seconds of resting.=C2- After running all day the pump wasn
=99t even=0Awarm.=C2- I opened the valve covers and saw=0Aoil coming out
the pushrods, confirming the oil gallery is pressurized.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AN
ext I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see=0Apic), and used
it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.=C2- The level
was also high enough to submerge=0Athe bottom passage to the gearbox (see
pic of open gearbox from the servicing=0Aclass).=C2- Then I leaned the en
gine left=0Aand right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and sl
osh oil around=0Ain the gearbox.=C2- Drained the crankcase,=0Aput a coupl
e of tablespoon of oil into each sparkplug hole.=C2- Finally, after hours
of oil circulation I=0Aturned the engine over, plugs still out.=C2-=0A
=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0ANote I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.=C2-
I seem to have misplaced my oil tank.=C2- I will look around for it a li
ttle longer=0Abefore I worry about buying another!=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI offer
this only for entertainment purposes and don=99t=0Asuggest anyone pe
rform this procedure without approval from your Rotax=0Adealer.=C2- My en
gine is long out of=0Awarranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome.
=C2- I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime=0Auntil I am ready
to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm=0Alifter st
atus per the Rotax procedure. =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A-Jim
--- On Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
=0A
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
=0ADate: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM
Jim:
As they say your idea is Spot On. =C2-The=C2-entire=C2-idea of Pre-Oi
ling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the
the engine. =C2-To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oi
ling is counter productive. =C2-=0A=0A=0A
Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:1 - Where
was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?=0A=0A=0A2 - Was
the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a=C2-preservative=C2
-oil that does not run off the engine areas?
When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:=0A=0A=0A1 - D
oes Rotax make a storage oil? =C2-If so use it.2 - If Rotax does NOT make
a storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain. =C2-Remember you are
NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it. =C2-=0A=0A=0AYes - You do r
un the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT,
that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.
Special Note: =C2-Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2=0A=0A=0AIt states th
at=C2-preservation=C2-is for only one year and if stored for more than
one year the=C2-preservation=C2-procedure should be repeated every year
. =C2-Have you been doing that?=0A=0A=0AIf not - Start with that procedur
e prior to Pre-Oiling.Why do i say that? =C2-Only because Pre-Oiling take
s care of the engine NOT the gearbox gears. =C2-Do everything you can to
get those gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.=0A=0A
=0ASo, how should you Pre-Oil?1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figu
re 3 .2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction. =C2-It goes OUT of the Oil Coole
r (item 5) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (ite
m 4).=0A=0A=0A3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through.
=C2-If it does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to yo
u.4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. =C2-It can handle oil pressu
re up to 150 PSI. =C2-YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at a
nd Pre-Oil at that pressure. =C2-=0A=0A=0A5 - Use the engine operating pr
essure so any valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will
cover the same areas as during normal operation.6 - Since the engine has an
Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher
than operating pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier=C2
-quickly as volume of oil drops.=0A=0A=0A7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gau
ge of the plane/engine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up
. =C2-There will probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier
=C2-is applying pressure for only a short time.=0A=0A=0A8 - Now, here I h
ave to ask a question. =C2-Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow
check valve? =C2-If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow directio
n.=C2-If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier=C2-in BOTH directions - The IN an
d the OUT.=0A=0A=0A9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil
in each direction - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the
Engine on the OUTPUT side of the Engine. =C2-See note 8. =C2-=0A=0A=0A1
0 - Now, here you have some options: =C2-a> You can leave the Oil Tank (i
tem 4) attached and it will catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the
engine. =C2-And remember to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7)
. =C2-I really doubt if this will ever happen, or...=0A=0A=0Ab> Put a Plu
g on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure to spray the
oil all around inside the engine.
The Pictures:=0A=0APic #1 is a general overview=C2-Pic #2 shows the fitti
ngs. =C2-One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit. =C2-From
the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom
of the unit.=0A=0AYou will see a Shrader valve on top. =C2-I hook up a 1
2VDC portable=C2-tire pump. =C2-Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can
leave the tire pump on and running when you open the valve. =C2-
=0A=0AThis system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a m
onth or more.=0A
Barry
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
.com>
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0AGreetings all:
=0A
=0AI looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:
=0A
=0AI have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. =C2-I just unwrappe
d it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the
engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the e
ngine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. =C2-I have a 12 volt oi
l pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a qu
estion:
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ACan I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circ
ulate oil throughout the gallery? =C2-I am concerned the pump will not pa
ss oil if the engine is not turning.
=0A
=0AAlternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from
there unless there is some reason not to. =C2-My preference is to feed t
hrough the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the ga
llery.
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0AI plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return ho
sebarb and back into the return tank.
=0A
=0AAny thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?
=0A
=0AThanks, Jim
=0A
=0AKolb Mark3X
=0A912ULS
=0A80% completed
=0A
=0A==========
=0A-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines
-List
=0A==========
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com
=0A==========
=0Ale, List Admin.
=0A="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A==========
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
========================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Spare 912ULS oil tank? |
Greetings,
Does anyone have a spare oil tank they would be interested in selling/renting/loaning?
I will use it for my ground oiling scheme as detailed in other posts,
and hope/expect to replace it with the original once I find it after 7 years
of storage.
Thanks, Jim
Kolb Mark 3 Xtra
912ULS
Building, 90%
California, Bay Area.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com> |
Jim,
I've been following your re-oiling saga from the first, and really
can't quite figure out what you are trying to accomplish. You preserve
an engine or other metal part by giving it a coat of oil to keep water
off the metal, to keep it from rusting. Periodic re-coating renews this
protection. I assume you have the preservation spec from Rotax?
Extended soaking metal in oil does nothing for its long term wear
characteristics, as the oil does not "soak into" the metal. We used to
use metal containers to hold oil because they are impervious to the oil.
If your gears or bearings have rusted, no amount of oiling is going
to remove the rust. Much better to maybe just open it up and look to
see if you actually have rust, and remove it chemically or replace the
parts. Or if parts are seized, remove the dried oil with a solvent.
Or am I missing something? (I could see maybe soaking a dried out
seal in the hopes of reviving it, but again, I'd just figure on
replacing them if they leak.)
Gerry Visel
(ex-gearbox engineer for 30+ years, but now doing high tech toilets!)
> Hi Barry/All:
>
> Thanks! I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes
> me feel better about storing the engine for so long :-)
>
> I agree with respect to the gearbox. While I did lean the engine
> forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big
> bearings on the prop shaft. I was thinking of again removing the fuel
> pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up. Then
> with several helpers turning the engine upside down. This would trap
> oil at the prop-shaft end. Leave it upside down for perhaps a couple
> of hours to marinate two big bearings. Looking at the photos I took
> in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash
> to keep those two lubed. I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soak
> in enough oil to suffice. Once done I will turn it right side up, and
> allow all the oil to drain.
>
> I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this
> system will stay in place awhile. Wish I could find the oil tank as
> the open bucket has to go. I will post separately asking if anyone
> has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely).
>
> -Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During |
November!
Dear Listers,
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Matronics Email List Administrator
RV-4/RV-6/RV-8 Builder/Rebuilder/Pilot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Hi Gerry,
Sorry, I may not have been clear. I am pretty handy in the material sciences,
and do realize (for the purposes of this discussion) metals are not porous :-)
The engine was internally (inside the valve covers), and externally oily, and there
is no evidence anywhere of corrosion or moisture damage. It spent all its
time in my care tightly wrapped in plastic and stored in a temperature controlled
space.
I was using engineering slang to describe my desire to allow the the bearing races/rollers/balls
and the plain bearing journals to flush away the old, possibly
dried manufacturing oils and replace them with fresh Rotax approved oils.
Another goal is to wet, as best I can, the backs of the many oil seals present.
One of the Kolb builders, some years ago, was in my situation, and when the
engine was finally started, it ran great, but all the seals began leaking requiring
replacement within the first few months. My hope is to try and avoid that.
I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips
to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.
Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying
my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed
the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement
oil as detailed above in my goals. Clearly these structures are designed
to work best in a running engine with much oil splash. I surmised, if that
was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing
structures and complete the oil replacement.
As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a preservative
oil. I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine instead for
two reasons:
--I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part, and
I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax
--The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, however it
would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will address nicely.
My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to prevent
a problem is usually worth the time. Particularly in my case: I have big investment
in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expired. So I cooked
up all these steps to satisfy myself. As I mentioned before, I offer this
purely for its entertainment value and reference. I don't suggest anyone follow
suit.
Thanks, Jim
--- On Wed, 10/31/12, Gerry Visel wrote:
> From: Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2012, 5:34 PM
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: Gerry Visel
>
> Jim,
>
> I've been following your re-oiling saga
> from the first, and really
> can't quite figure out what you are trying to
> accomplish. You preserve
> an engine or other metal part by giving it a coat of oil to
> keep water
> off the metal, to keep it from rusting. Periodic
> re-coating renews this
> protection. I assume you have the preservation spec
> from Rotax?
>
> Extended soaking metal in oil does nothing
> for its long term wear
> characteristics, as the oil does not "soak into" the
> metal. We used to
> use metal containers to hold oil because they are impervious
> to the oil.
>
> If your gears or bearings have rusted, no
> amount of oiling is going
> to remove the rust. Much better to maybe just open it
> up and look to
> see if you actually have rust, and remove it chemically or
> replace the
> parts. Or if parts are seized, remove the dried oil
> with a solvent.
>
> Or am I missing something? (I could
> see maybe soaking a dried out
> seal in the hopes of reviving it, but again, I'd just figure
> on
> replacing them if they leak.)
>
> Gerry Visel
> (ex-gearbox engineer for 30+ years, but now doing high tech
> toilets!)
>
> > Hi Barry/All:
> >
> > Thanks! I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so
> the overkill makes
> > me feel better about storing the engine for so long :-)
>
> >
> > I agree with respect to the gearbox. While I did
> lean the engine
> > forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned
> about the big
> > bearings on the prop shaft. I was thinking of
> again removing the fuel
> > pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing
> it up. Then
> > with several helpers turning the engine upside
> down. This would trap
> > oil at the prop-shaft end. Leave it upside down
> for perhaps a couple
> > of hours to marinate two big bearings. Looking at
> the photos I took
> > in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a
> bit of splash
> > to keep those two lubed. I figure an hour or so
> marinating maybe soak
> > in enough oil to suffice. Once done I will turn
> it right side up, and
> > allow all the oil to drain.
> >
> > I am several months from mounting the engine on the
> plane, so this
> > system will stay in place awhile. Wish I could
> find the oil tank as
> > the open bucket has to go. I will post separately
> asking if anyone
> > has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely).
> >
> > -Jim
>
>
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Jim:
You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are
planing to use.
Two suggestions:
1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws, Nuts or Bolts more than
they already are. To do so could distort the shape of the gasket and
creates a leak. Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND
even if it does leak - LET IT. Let it leak for a while and see if
temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.
2 - I understand your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But - I
would run a test first. Take a piece of gasket material. Weigh it and
measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punched
out hole such as where a bolt may go through. Then subject it to the
silicone you plan on using. Most silicone's are very close in substance
except for particle size. The big difference is in the mobilization agent.
And what happens when the agent evaporates off. Better to know this
before you address the engine itself.
Best of luck,
Barry
> I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal
> lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.
>
> Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after
> studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I
> noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the
> flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals. Clearly these
> structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil
> splash. I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil
> to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.
>
> As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a
> preservative oil. I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine
> instead for two reasons:
>
> --I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part,
> and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax
>
> --The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work,
> however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will
> address nicely.
>
> My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to
> prevent a problem is usually worth the time. Particularly in my case: I
> have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since
> expired. So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself. As I mentioned
> before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference. I
> don't suggest anyone follow suit.
>
> Thanks, Jim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
Those interested in the design of the 912iS may want to buy SAE paper nr
2012-32-0049.
By 3 Rotax engineers and recently presented at an SAE conference.
It costs $23 and can only be printed, during 24 hours, not saved.
Some of the figures need to be printed separately to make some very
small print readable (primitive but working procedure: zoom to maximise
on screen, copy screen to clipboard, paste into picture viewer like
Irfanview, crop in picture viewer and print/save).
I found it interesting. A lot of questions were answered, quite a view
remain.
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Great suggestions, Barry. -Thanks! -I will do some testing with the spr
ay first.
In other news -looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800 some
thing!! -ok, back to searching my shop.
-Jim
--- On Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM
Jim:
You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planin
g to use.
Two suggestions:1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws, Nuts or Bo
lts more than they already are. -To do so could-distort-the shape of
the gasket and creates a leak. -Start from the known you have and run it
for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT. -Let it leak for a while a
nd see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.=0A2
- I-understand-your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But -
I would run a test first. -Take a piece of gasket material. -Weigh it
and measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a pun
ched out hole such as where a bolt may go through. -Then subject it to th
e silicone you plan on using. -Most-silicone's-are very close in subs
tance except for particle size. -The big-difference-is in the-mobil
ization-agent. -And what happens when the agent evaporates off. -Bett
er to know this before you address the engine itself.=0A
Best of luck,
Barry
=0AI am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external se
al lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.
=0A
=0ASpecifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, aft
er studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class,
I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow th
e flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals. -Clearly these s
tructures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splas
h. -I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to
seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.
=0A=0A
=0AAs others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a
preservative oil. -I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine
instead for two reasons:
=0A
=0A--I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my par
t, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax
=0A
=0A--The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, how
ever it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will addres
s nicely.
=0A
=0AMy professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to
prevent a problem is usually worth the time. -Particularly in my case: I
have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expi
red. -So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself. -As I mentioned
before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference. -
I don't suggest anyone follow suit.
=0A=0A
=0AThanks, Jim
======================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Jim:
For testing you could make a tank from PVC piping. It will handle the
pressure if any and also the temperature. You could also install a simple
oil filter in line.
I know you will find the tank... Of course it will be in the last place you
look. ;-)
Barry
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
> Great suggestions, Barry. Thanks! I will do some testing with the spray
> first.
>
> In other news looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800
> something!! ok, back to searching my shop.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE * wrote:
>
>
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM
>
> Jim:
>
> You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are
> planing to use.
>
> Two suggestions:
> 1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws, Nuts or Bolts more than
> they already are. To do so could distort the shape of the gasket and
> creates a leak. Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND
> even if it does leak - LET IT. Let it leak for a while and see if
> temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.
> 2 - I understand your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But -
> I would run a test first. Take a piece of gasket material. Weigh it and
> measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punch
ed
> out hole such as where a bolt may go through. Then subject it to the
> silicone you plan on using. Most silicone's are very close in substance
> except for particle size. The big difference is in the mobilization agen
t.
> And what happens when the agent evaporates off. Better to know this
> before you address the engine itself.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Barry
>
>
> I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external sea
l
> lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.
>
> Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, afte
r
> studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I
> noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow th
e
> flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals. Clearly these
> structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil
> splash. I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oi
l
> to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.
>
> As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a
> preservative oil. I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine
> instead for two reasons:
>
> --I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part
,
> and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax
>
> --The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work,
> however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will
> address nicely.
>
> My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to
> prevent a problem is usually worth the time. Particularly in my case: I
> have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since
> expired. So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself. As I mention
ed
> before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference. I
> don't suggest anyone follow suit.
>
> Thanks, Jim
>
> *www.ow" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buil
dersbooofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion">h="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist=========
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
*Barry*
*=93Chop=92d Liver=94*
* *
*YOU ARE NOT *
*WE ARE*
*BECAUSE WE WERE *
*YOU ARE*
* *
*The words to be inserted are VETERANS=92 and FREE*
*Thank you Veterans!*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
Hi Barry,
Good idea!
Thanks, Jim
--- On Fri, 11/2/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
Date: Friday, November 2, 2012, 5:17 AM
Jim:
For testing you could make a tank from PVC piping. =C2-It will handle the
pressure if any and also the temperature. =C2-You could also install a s
imple oil filter in line.I know you will find the tank... Of course it will
be in the last place you look. =C2-;-)=0A
Barry
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jim Clayton wrote:
=0AGreat suggestions, Barry. =C2-Thanks! =C2-I will do some testing wit
h the spray first.=0A
In other news =C2-looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800 s
omething!! =C2-ok, back to searching my shop.
-Jim
--- On Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
=0A
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS
=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM
Jim:
You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planin
g to use.=0A
Two suggestions:1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws,=0A Nuts or
Bolts more than they already are. =C2-To do so could=C2-distort=C2-t
he shape of the gasket and creates a leak. =C2-Start from the known you h
ave and run it for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT. =C2-Let it
leak for a while and see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to
the gaskets.=0A=0A2 - I=C2-understand=C2-your idea of using silicone s
pray on the gaskets - But - I would run a test first. =C2-Take a piece of
gasket material. =C2-Weigh it and measure the thickness and if you have
the ability the diameter of a punched out hole such as where a bolt may go
through. =C2-Then subject it to the silicone you plan on using. =C2-Mos
t=C2-silicone's=C2-are very close in substance except for particle size
. =C2-The big=C2-difference=C2-is in the=C2-mobilization=C2-agent
. =C2-And what happens when the agent evaporates off. =C2-Better to kno
w this before you address the engine itself.=0A=0A
Best of luck,
Barry
=0AI am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external se
al lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.
=0A
=0ASpecifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, aft
er studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class,
I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow th
e flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals. =C2-Clearly thes
e structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil sp
lash. =C2-I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow o
il to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement
.
=0A=0A=0A
=0AAs others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a
preservative oil. =C2-I chose to use standard approved oil for this engi
ne instead for two reasons:
=0A
=0A--I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my par
t, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax
=0A
=0A--The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, how
ever it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will addres
s nicely.
=0A
=0AMy professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to
prevent a problem is usually worth the time. =C2-Particularly in my case
: I have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since e
xpired. =C2-So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself. =C2-As I
mentioned before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and refer
ence. =C2-I don't suggest anyone follow suit.
=0A=0A=0A
=0AThanks, Jim
=0A=0Awww.ow" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.b
uildersbooofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contr
ibution">h="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngine
s-List===========0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_blank">www.aeroelectric
.com=0A.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A="_blank">www.home
builthelp.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0Aist" target
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0Atp://for
ums.matronics.com=0A=0A
--
Barry=0A=0A=9CChop=99d Liver=9D=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AYOU ARE
NOT =0A=0AWE ARE=0A=0ABECAUSE WE WERE =0A=0AYOU ARE=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AThe wo
rds to be inserted are VETERANS=99 and FREEThank you Veterans!
======================0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Guys -
I don't know how it happened, but my Veteran's Day message became attached
to an email.
I can only blame it on Google.
Go figure, yet the words are still true.
Check 6
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists |
Dear Listers,
There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums.
The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November
Fund
Raiser.
Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade
of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution
too!
You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your generous support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ray" <raybot(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spare 912ULS oil tank? |
Theres nothing super-special about the rotax tank.Other motor are
sumpless.The seadoo dealer can get one off a webber 750 or the off road guys
use the webber also.It is a tank with a screen to deair the oil,800$ is
fraud.Its time to get away from this ripoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Clayton" <jspc78(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:07 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Spare 912ULS oil tank?
>
> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone have a spare oil tank they would be interested in
> selling/renting/loaning? I will use it for my ground oiling scheme as
> detailed in other posts, and hope/expect to replace it with the original
> once I find it after 7 years of storage.
>
> Thanks, Jim
>
> Kolb Mark 3 Xtra
> 912ULS
> Building, 90%
> California, Bay Area.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spare 912ULS oil tank? |
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
There was one on Barnstormers.
On Nov 3, 2012, at 9:26 PM, "ray" wrote:
>
> Theres nothing super-special about the rotax tank.Other motor are sumpless.The
seadoo dealer can get one off a webber 750 or the off road guys use the webber
also.It is a tank with a screen to deair the oil,800$ is fraud.Its time to
get away from this ripoff.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Clayton" <jspc78(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:07 PM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Spare 912ULS oil tank?
>
>
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Does anyone have a spare oil tank they would be interested in selling/renting/loaning?
I will use it for my ground oiling scheme as detailed in other posts,
and hope/expect to replace it with the original once I find it after 7 years
of storage.
>>
>> Thanks, Jim
>>
>> Kolb Mark 3 Xtra
>> 912ULS
>> Building, 90%
>> California, Bay Area.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make |
A Contribution Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way
of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine
subscription!
Make sure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate
the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using
your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spare 912ULS oil tank? |
Thanks!
--- On Sun, 11/4/12, Pete Christensen wrote:
> From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Spare 912ULS oil tank?
> To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com"
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:18 AM
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: Pete Christensen
>
> There was one on Barnstormers.
>
> On Nov 3, 2012, at 9:26 PM, "ray"
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Theres nothing super-special about the rotax tank.Other
> motor are sumpless.The seadoo dealer can get one off a
> webber 750 or the off road guys use the webber also.It is a
> tank with a screen to deair the oil,800$ is fraud.Its time
> to get away from this ripoff.
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Clayton" <jspc78(at)yahoo.com>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:07 PM
> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Spare 912ULS oil tank?
> >
> >
> Clayton
> >>
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> Does anyone have a spare oil tank they would be
> interested in selling/renting/loaning? I will use it
> for my ground oiling scheme as detailed in other posts, and
> hope/expect to replace it with the original once I find it
> after 7 years of storage.
> >>
> >> Thanks, Jim
> >>
> >> Kolb Mark 3 Xtra
> >> 912ULS
> >> Building, 90%
> >> California, Bay Area.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> more about
> Gifts provided
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | A Message From AeroElectric's Bob Nuckolls... |
Dear Listers,
The well known Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric posted a great message Monday on
the AeroElectric-List regarding the Matronics Lists and the importance of supporting
the operation during the Fund Raiser. Please take a minute to read Bob's
commentary below, reposted to the other Matronics Lists with his permission...
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:58:41 -0600
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Please Make A Contribution Today!
At 02:14 AM 11/5/2012, Matt Dralle wrote:
>
> Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message
> acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to
> support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that
> took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists.
>
I will add my voice to this suggestion. It's
easy to enjoy the benefits of what's available to us
off-the-shelves at the corner mega-marts. It's
seldom that we give pause to learn and understand the
processes and tools that made it possible to reach out
and select from dozens of options.
This, and all civil societies, runs on talent, energy
and mobility. Mobility exploited by thousands of hands,
machines and transportation that figure into the
'infrastructure' that puts the boxes of Wheaties and
Pop Tarts on the shelves.
See "I pencil" http://tinyurl.com/36xkhq
Any break in that chain of time, talent and resources
at least interrupts if not totally halts flow of
that benefit. Matt's room full of byte-thrashers is
like the natural gas pumping station a few miles from
my house. If those pumps stop, who ever is expecting
the furnace to come on at the other end of the pipe
is at risk for reduced service and/or higher costs
for that service.
Matt's yearly endeavor to keep his pumps running is
a trivial burden on the members of the Lists
but of incalculable value to those who participate
on them. No donation is too small.
We go to a fly-in a willingly chuck a few bucks into
the coffee can at the drinks and donuts table, let's
chuck a few bucks into Matt's coffee can too. 50,000
pounds of value doesn't get to the shelves on time
if one 18-wheeler runs out of gas. The T-bytes of
data flow we all enjoy don't get from your keyboard
to the screens of others unless Matt pays the light
bill and strokes the machines to keep them happy.
No, $5 won't get you a free copy of the 'Connection
or a fuel sampler but it will go toward the assurance
that logging onto your favorite List will open
doors that you would be sorely missed should you find
that hitting the return key doesn't produce the
expected response.
$5 from every List customer on Matt's system will
go a very long way to keeping the byte-pumps running.
$More$ will go a long way to upgrading the size
and quality of the machines as the old ones get
long in the tooth. No matter what size of donation
you choose . . . please do it now . . .
Bob . . .
Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade
of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution
too!
You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch |
Button...
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through
the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added
to this year's Contributor List and they instantly cease to receive further Fund
Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple! :-)
I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support
the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware
and software that are required to run a List Site such as this one. It also goes
to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric
bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered
on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which
allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in
reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined
with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site
up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics
Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are
so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have
it on my Email List sites.
If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email
Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution
related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages,
when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum.
The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous
public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Support The Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. There
are some very nice incentive gifts to choose from as well!
Please make your Contribution today at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What's Your Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
You might have wondered at some pointd, "What's my Contribution used for?" Here
are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables... It provides
for the expensive, commercial-grade Internet connection used on the List.
It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest
performance possible for List services such as the Archive Search Engine,
List Browser, and the Web Forums. It pays for the over 22 years of on-line
archive data always available for instant search and access. And, it offsets
the many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications
that power these List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums,
and Wiki.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation,
censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses.
It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables all these aspects of Matronics List
services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one of
the best investments you can make in your Sport!
List Contribution Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Luis Peromarta Regert <lperoma(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Airbox with servo |
Dear friends.
I am new to the list. Would like to share with you my implementation of
TWC's servo on a Rotax Airbox for my 912. Please find attached a couple
of pics, and a link for a small video.
http://youtu.be/KwuVpV9ycjo
The servo has been programmed not to fully open, as in my experience,
only a little hot air is enough to rise the intake temp. a good few
degrees.
Comments and feedback welcome!
With warmest regards,
Luis.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Airbox with servo |
Who is TWC and do they have a web site?
-- Craig
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Luis
Peromarta Regert
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 8:31 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Airbox with servo
Dear friends.
I am new to the list. Would like to share with you my implementation of
TWC's servo on a Rotax Airbox for my 912. Please find attached a couple of
pics, and a link for a small video.
<http://youtu.be/KwuVpV9ycjo> http://youtu.be/KwuVpV9ycjo
The servo has been programmed not to fully open, as in my experience, only a
little hot air is enough to rise the intake temp. a good few degrees.
Comments and feedback welcome!
With warmest regards,
Luis.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airbox with servo |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Looks very nice. Can you share more details/how the servo is programmed? No a
ir box on my Kitfox but thinking of installing one.
Sacha
On Nov 12, 2012, at 17:31, Luis Peromarta Regert wrote:
> Dear friends.
>
> I am new to the list. Would like to share with you my implementation of TW
C's servo on a Rotax Airbox for my 912. Please find attached a couple of pic
s, and a link for a small video.
>
> http://youtu.be/KwuVpV9ycjo
>
> The servo has been programmed not to fully open, as in my experience, only
a little hot air is enough to rise the intake temp. a good few degrees.
>
> Comments and feedback welcome!
>
> With warmest regards,
>
> Luis.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Luis Peromarta Regert <lperoma(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airbox with servo |
All details here.
http://www.tcwtech.com/control_valve_servo_kit.htm
Sorry for the typo, I meant TCW, not TWC.
Best regards, LP.
El 13/11/2012, a las 09:00, RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
escribi=F3:
> From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Airbox with servo
>
> Who is TWC and do they have a web site?
>
>
> -- Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airbox with servo |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Luis:
That is some SWEET welding.
Barry
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Luis Peromarta Regert
wrote:
> Dear friends.
>
> I am new to the list. Would like to share with you my implementation of
> TWC's servo on a Rotax Airbox for my 912. Please find attached a couple of
> pics, and a link for a small video.
>
> http://youtu.be/KwuVpV9ycjo
>
> The servo has been programmed not to fully open, as in my experience, only
> a little hot air is enough to rise the intake temp. a good few degrees.
>
> Comments and feedback welcome!
>
> With warmest regards,
>
> Luis.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published |
in December!
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a
list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Damien" <dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 Preheating |
Hello Group.
There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada about
preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger preheating for
Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to find sugesstions for
the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the temperature would have to dip
to require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.
Regards,
Damien Graham
N48TK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Damien:
Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either 0 C or 32 F.
It is NOT a function of Manufacture. So unless ROTAX uses a different
freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - - Start Pre-heating at the freezing
point.
Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS. Many a knob and
gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop. Personally - I begin
to function slower as the temps get lower, so it is just as important to me
to be Pre-Heated.
Barry
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Damien wrote:
> **
> Hello Group.
> There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada about
> preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger preheating for
> Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to find sugesstions for
> the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the temperature would have to dip to
> require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.
> Regards,
> Damien Graham
> N48TK
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
Please explain what the freezing point of water has to do with when to
preheat an engine that is cooled with a combination of antifreeze and air.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 11/14/2012 09:58 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Damien:
>
> Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either 0 C or 32
> F. It is NOT a function of Manufacture. So unless ROTAX uses a
> different freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - - Start Pre-heating at
> the freezing point.
> Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS. Many a knob
> and gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop. Personally
> - I begin to function slower as the temps get lower, so it is just as
> important to me to be Pre-Heated.
>
> Barry
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Damien > wrote:
>
> Hello Group.
> There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada
> about preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger
> preheating for Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to
> find sugesstions for the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the
> temperature would have to dip to require a preheat for the Rotax
> 912 ? Thanks.
> Regards,
> Damien Graham
> N48TK
>
> *
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Raymond:
The theory is this:
There is water in the oil.
There is water condensed on the metal parts of the engine.
When the water freezes it creates ice crystals -
Some of these ice crystals are between parts such as connecting rods
and journals of the crank shaft.
When water freezes it expands - This puts uneven pressure on the connected
parts. Journals, guides and bearings. Squeezing out the oil.
If there is Water in those areas there is NO oil in those areas - So there
is the possibility of metal to metal ware.
This is the THEORY - It has some merit. But, Adam Ant has not gotten
inside the engine and taken pictures so I don't know 1,000%.
I do KNOW this: A pre-heated engine starts easier than a non-pre-heated
engine.
A plane that I fly, an RV6, won't even think of starting at temps near
freezing.
Which brings up a second theory:
Most aircraft engines have very sloppy tolerances between mating parts. If
you have a better than average engine with close tolerances and there
are dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and Aluminum) each metal has a
different coefficient of expansion. Aluminum expands more than steel. You
could put higher pressures and uneven pressure on mating parts.
Chose which ever theory you like - But, Pre-Heat. Your engine will like
you for it. And may even last longer.
Barry
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:29 PM, rayj wrote:
> Please explain what the freezing point of water has to do with when to
> preheat an engine that is cooled with a combination of antifreeze and air.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 11/14/2012 09:58 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Damien:
>
> Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either 0 C or 32
> F. It is NOT a function of Manufacture. So unless ROTAX uses a different
> freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - - Start Pre-heating at the freezing
> point.
> Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS. Many a knob and
> gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop. Personally - I begin
> to function slower as the temps get lower, so it is just as important to me
> to be Pre-Heated.
>
> Barry
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Damien wrote:
>
>> Hello Group.
>> There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada about
>> preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger preheating for
>> Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to find sugesstions for
>> the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the temperature would have to dip to
>> require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.
>> Regards,
>> Damien Graham
>> N48TK
>>
>> *
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
some are getting close "dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and Aluminum) each
metal has a differentcoefficientofexpansion. Aluminumexpandsmore than steel.
You could put higher pressures and uneven pressure on mating parts. "
this is one of the main reasons but another is the oil... oil only.... there is
no water in an engine that runs often. one that sits for long perionds may...
may have some condensation filter in..... but its the oil... shelll sport 4
is like cement , or molassis , or thick glue.. at lower temps....it cant be
pumped or moved through a cold engine... try it ... a lot of metal clankin goin
on till the oil is warmed and if you dont pre warm it ... its the friction
from metal on metal that has to do the warmin up... . i have 100wat bulb on
under the engine cowl from now till spring... and a bear blanket wrapped on the
outside... live near detoit / toronto. any time the temp is below35/37 degrees
i change oil to 0w40amsoil syn. and use the light....at temps below 20deg
F i also us a propane heater for 30min .
no one has to pre heat... but everyone should..alway... these engines are a big
investment... try leaving $16000.00 at the curb and see if it needs warming
in at night... it will just leave mysteriously... your engine is the same
.. it will just leave you... one little part at a time... . all / any oil is
the same to varying degrees... some are using 50w .. put that in the fridge over
night and do a fluid test... it no longer is fluid...its rock hard.. 0wXX
will be better but still is not great..
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387950#387950
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ross:
There is always water in oil. Of course you reduce the quantity by flying
often.
An easy way to prove this to yourself is:
After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap. What do you see coming out? A
white vapor. That white vapor is water. Now, take a smooth sheet of
aluminum and hold it in the vapor. What do you see? Water condensing on
the aluminum.
Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion
And as combustion gases get past the rings of the pistons they get into the
crank area of the engine. OIL is in the crank area of the engine and the
oil absorbs the water.
Another way of proving this is:
Do this out side.
Take a quart of NEW oil.
Put it in a glass jar.
Weigh the oil & jar - ACCURATELY - Gram Scale
Put another Larger Glass jar over the first.
Set up the second glass jar so it is raised an inch with 5 blocks around
the edge. It has to breathe - Just like an engine.
Let it sit OUTSIDE for a couple of months - [Requirement - You can't live
in the Sara Desert]
Weigh the oil & glass jar... Guess what?
It became heaver - WATER was absorbed into the oil.
Another proof:
In the cold weather - DURING PRE-FLIGHT - Slowly and carefully pull out
your dipstick (NO! Not that one!!!) - Look at the clear droplets that are
on it. That is water. If it is on your dipstick, it is in your engine.
If it is in your engine, it is in your oil.
YES running an engine does reduce the amount of water but not totally.
Hope this explains things.
Barry
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 8:14 AM, dashwood wrote:
> dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com>
>
> some are getting close "dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and
> Aluminum) each metal has a different=EF=BDcoefficient=EF=BDof=EF
=BDexpansion.=EF=BD
> Aluminum=EF=BDexpands=EF=BDmore than steel. =EF=BDYou could put
higher pressures and
> uneven pressure on mating parts. "
> this is one of the main reasons but another is the oil... oil only....
> there is no water in an engine that runs often. one that sits for long
> perionds may... may have some condensation filter in..... but its the
> oil... shelll sport 4 is like cement , or molassis , or thick glue.. a
t
> lower temps....it cant be pumped or moved through a cold engine... try it
> ... a lot of metal clankin goin on till the oil is warmed and if you don
t
> pre warm it ... its the friction from metal on metal that has to do the
> warmin up... . i have 100wat bulb on under the engine cowl from now till
> spring... and a bear blanket wrapped on the outside... live near detoit /
> toronto. any time the temp is below35/37 degrees i change oil to
> 0w40amsoil syn. and use the light....at temps below 20deg F i also us a
> propane heater for 30min .
> no one has to pre heat... but everyone should..alway... these engines
> are a big investment... try leaving $16000.00 at the curb and see if it
> needs warming in at night... it will just leave mysteriously... your
> engine is the same .. it will just leave you... one little part at a
> time... . all / any oil is the same to varying degrees... some are using
> 50w .. put that in the fridge over night and do a fluid test... it no
> longer is fluid...its rock hard.. 0wXX will be better but still is not
> great..
>
> --------
> Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt
> It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387950#387950
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com> |
Barry,
Do you preheat your car? With it's big oil sump, you'll see lots more
water there. Somehow they last for many hundreds of thousands of miles
without (most people) preheating. (If you drive a diesel, this does not
apply due to the higher compression ratios. I preheated my old Benz, even
with its glow plugs, to help it turn over easier.) However, water
in engines all gets boiled off during operation, so the only water you will
see is from what might have condensed inside since last shutdown. I think
you are worried too much about its effects. If it was a serious issue, you
sure would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine
owner's manual.
That said, I sure agree that it is sure a whole lot easier to start a
pre-heated engine when it is really cold outside!
Gerry
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:46 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Ross:
>
> There is always water in oil. Of course you reduce the quantity by
> flying often.
> An easy way to prove this to yourself is:
> After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap. What do you see coming out? A
> white vapor. That white vapor is water. Now, take a smooth sheet of
> aluminum and hold it in the vapor. What do you see? Water condensing on
> the aluminum.
>
> Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water -
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gerry:
You did not spend much time thinking through your email.
1 - You did not ask where I live -- - I could live in Florida and never
require pre-heating. I could live in Alaska or North Dakota and have to
pre-heat all winter long.
Did you know that in extreme cold areas such as Alaska and North Dakota, if
the plane is going to sit for a few days and then be flown, they remove the
oil and bring it in a heated area.
2 - The size of the sump (not a sump but an oil pan) on a car is usually
about 4 quarts. The size on Lycoming and Continental is 8 quarts so the
CAR is a much smaller capacity. And capacity has nothing to do with it.
It is the environment and the number of hours flown.
3 - Yes cars do go for hunderds of thousands of miles. The average car is
used EVERYDAY do you fly your plane everyday? Not a good comparison.
4 - DIESEL - Diesel fuel is why diesel engines are pre-heated NOT the
compression ratio. The GLOW PLUGS on a diesel are there to START
COMBUSTION by pre-heating the inside of the cylinder. They are kept
glowing by the combustion process. Diesel fuel GELS at low temperatures, a
gelled fuel is extremely difficult to burn.
Want to learn something - Take a small 3" diameter pan. Put in 1/8" of
diesel fuel. Throw a match into it. What do you thinks will happen?
NOTHING! NOTHING - The match will go out. That should show you how POOR
diesel fuel is as an accelerant.
My Diesel Rabbit had two pre heaters, one in the dipstick and one on the
oil pan. Both raised the temp under the hood enough to heat a Metal
Cased Cartage Oil Filter enough to prevent gelling.
Oh, I live in NJ so I get both hot and cold temps.
5 - You did not comprehend my last post. WATER is also added to the oil
through COMBUSTION. ALL the water is NOT boiled off as you think. Other
wise why is there water vapor (Steam) coming out of your oil cap when
opened.
6 - Yes I am worried about effects of cold starts - After all I have
$18,000 invested in my engine NOT counting the plane, or the people that
fly in it.
7 - Seven as in CRAPS you loose - " If it was a serious issue, you sure
would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine owner's
manual." You are so willing blindly trust a manual as to not use common
sense and consider who ever wrote and accepted the manual could have missed
writing the section on COLD STARTS!
OR - OR you don't think BUSINESS comes before common sense? Think on how
many planes are built WITHOUT a cowl. How do you preheat an engine without
a cowl? How many engines would NOT be sold if the plane was to be used in
colder areas such as NJ - IF - The manual said: Pre-heat at 32 F and
below.
RTFQS
Barry
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Gerry Visel wrote:
> Barry,
>
> Do you preheat your car? With it's big oil sump, you'll see lots more
> water there. Somehow they last for many hundreds of thousands of miles
> without (most people) preheating. (If you drive a diesel, this does not
> apply due to the higher compression ratios. I preheated my old Benz, even
> with its glow plugs, to help it turn over easier.) However, water
> in engines all gets boiled off during operation, so the only water you will
> see is from what might have condensed inside since last shutdown. I think
> you are worried too much about its effects. If it was a serious issue, you
> sure would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine
> owner's manual.
>
> That said, I sure agree that it is sure a whole lot easier to start a
> pre-heated engine when it is really cold outside!
>
> Gerry
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:46 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Hi Ross:
>>
>> There is always water in oil. Of course you reduce the quantity by
>> flying often.
>> An easy way to prove this to yourself is:
>> After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap. What do you see coming out? A
>> white vapor. That white vapor is water. Now, take a smooth sheet of
>> aluminum and hold it in the vapor. What do you see? Water condensing on
>> the aluminum.
>>
>> Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water -
>>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com> |
Get a life, guy.
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> You did not spend much time thinking through your email.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
Sorry folks, I didn't know. I've learned my lesson.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 11/15/2012 12:34 PM, Gerry Visel wrote:
> Get a life, guy.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, FLYaDIVE > wrote:
>
>
> You did not spend much time thinking through your email.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Who is Matt Dralle & What Are The Lists? |
Dear Listers,
Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists anyway? I've been working
in the Information Technology industry for over 28 years, primarily in computer
networking design and implementation and more recently as an embedded software
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I started the Matronics Email Lists way back in 1990 shortly after I started building
my RV-4 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since
that time, I have added many other types of aircraft related Lists to the line
up and numerous other List related services such as the Forums, Wiki, Archives
and Search Engine just to name a few.
For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers locally.
Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network
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The computer servers include a dual quad-core Linux server for List web services
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A while back, I upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new
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Computer Center for the Matronics Email Lists and followed that upgrade up with
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As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to
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Please make a Contribution today to support these Lists!
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Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
http://www.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/articles/2012-11_cold-weather-operations.asp
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388104#388104
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ross & Gaggle:
While we al agree that pre-heating is helpful and benificial to our engines
after reading the EAA news letter "Bits & Pieces" one has to note a few
things:
1 - It was written by by Christine Wetherell ,
Tanis Aircraft whom is a member of TANIS AIRCRAFT as she even states. So
take what is offered with a grain of salt.
2 - She also makes the statement: "Often, preheating is the only way to get
a cold engine started. Cold fuel doesn't vaporize well,...". That is NOT a
requirement. In the racing world of cars there is a device know as a COOL
CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it -
Into the can you put Dry Ice. This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas
flowing to the engine. What this does is raise the Specific Gravity
(density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the
combustion chamber. This increases the Horse Power of the delivered fuel
.
Vaporization takes place inside the cylinder (think high temps).
Atomization takes place in the carburetor (think a super fine spray of
particles).
3 - She uses the term Cold Soaked - In the engineering field this refers to
a steady state temperature for a period of 24 hours or more as called out
in particular environmental testing. Not really appropriate for normal day
night temperature cycling. But, I think we all get the idea that she means
- The engine has been cold and unused for a long time .
4 - Now, this one is TOTALLY WRONG - If you read about 2/3 the way down you
will find this quote which is taken from a Continental Service Letter (SL):
"Preheating is required whenever the engine has been exposed to
temperatures at or below 20=B0F/-7=B0C (wind chill factor) for a period of
two
hours or more." - This is totally incorrect. Why? Because engines
CANNOT experience windchill factor. Windchill is the process of
evaporation of moisture off the skin which reduced the applied temperature
to an effective temperature. The engine does NOT have skin. ALSO - in
most cases the engine is under the cowl so it does not even experience wind
blowing across it.
The person who wrote this for Continental was incorrect and the person
that regurgitated incorrect information did not bother to do their job.
The point where pre-heating becomes advantageous is the freezing point 0
C/32 F. Some engines are temperamental and require it at higher
temperatures. I know one O-360 Lycoming that complains around 40 to 45 F.
I don't know why.
"If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough, it becomes the truth." Leni
n
Do your homework people.
Barry
==================
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 8:23 AM, dashwood wrote:
> dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> http://www.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/articles/2012-11_cold-weather-operations
.asp
>
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html
>
> --------
> Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt
> It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388104#388104
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
... In the racing world of cars there is a device know as a COOL
CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it -
Into the can you put Dry Ice. This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas
flowing to the engine. What this does is raise the Specific Gravity
(density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the
combustion chamber....
When I was a drag racer nearly 50 years ago, I built my own cool cans, but the
purpose for it was not as you stated. The real purpose was to eliminate vapor
lock on hot summer days.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388120#388120
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Preheating |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Thom:
You don't look that old. :-)
I did my racing in the late '60's and early '70's.
RACEWAY PARK, Englishtown, NJ
I never heard of the cool can being used for vapor lock. All dependent on
the location of the can and length of the fuel run that might be a concern.
But, in those days engine compartments were HUGE - So big I was able to
climb right in under the hood - Legs and all. Just to do a intake manifold
or a valve job. With all that room I can't see how heat could build that
high, the can was also to be located as close to the Carb as possible. So
that would eliminate the possibility of vapor lock forming. Vapor Lock -
Possible but I don't think probable. Well, at least I
never experienced that problem.
Here are links about how others used the cool can:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/556895-whos-running-fuel-cool-can-cooler.html
http://blogs.superchevy.com/6274849/chevy-tech/keep-your-fuel-cool/
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/fuel-cool-can/10560/page1/
And the list goes on... No mention of Vapor Lock.
Back then I did not know about Density Altitude. But today a friend that
still races has an entire computer program that addresses Density Altitude
and he changes his injectors for the particular conditions.
He still believes in the COOL CAN.
Hey, it can't hoit!
Barry
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
> >
>
> ... In the racing world of cars there is a device know as a COOL
> CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it -
> Into the can you put Dry Ice. This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas
> flowing to the engine. What this does is raise the Specific Gravity
> (density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the
> combustion chamber....
>
>
> When I was a drag racer nearly 50 years ago, I built my own cool cans, but
> the purpose for it was not as you stated. The real purpose was to eliminate
> vapor lock on hot summer days.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
>
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
>
> Diamond Katana DA20-A1
> Rotax 912 F3
>
> Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
> - Anonymous
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388120#388120
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Prop-Balancing a TD |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Gaggle:
A bit of an unusual question.
I have balanced props using dynamic balancing on planes, but, they were all
trike gear.
Now I want to balance the prop on an RV6 (Tail Dragger).
Since there is a nose up attitude and the prop is not sitting S&L, my
thoughts are; asymmetric loading would affect the outcome.
And two things would happen:
1 - The prop would not reach the highest possible RPM and
2 - I would be fighting the asymmetric loading and never be able
to achieve a balance in the S&L configuration.
So, if I am correct about my concerns; how can I secure the plane in a S&L
ground attitude?
Thanks Gaggle,
Barry
PS
I want to do this so bad because I just did a plane where I was able to
reduce the displacement from 0.38 to 0.04 IPS
WOW! What a noticeable physical difference that made.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JohnF" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Prop-Balancing a TD |
Where aare you located? I'd love to have my prop balanced, but I doubt
there's anyone doing this within a few hundred miles of me. (Central
Colorado)
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:29 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Prop-Balancing a TD
Hi Gaggle:
A bit of an unusual question.
I have balanced props using dynamic balancing on planes, but, they
were all trike gear.
Now I want to balance the prop on an RV6 (Tail Dragger).
Since there is a nose up attitude and the prop is not sitting S&L, my
thoughts are; asymmetric loading would affect the outcome.
And two things would happen:
1 - The prop would not reach the highest possible RPM and
2 - I would be fighting the asymmetric loading and never be able to
achieve a balance in the S&L configuration.
So, if I am correct about my concerns; how can I secure the plane in a
S&L ground attitude?
Thanks Gaggle,
Barry
PS
I want to do this so bad because I just did a plane where I was able
to reduce the displacement from 0.38 to 0.04 IPS
WOW! What a noticeable physical difference that made.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop-Balancing a TD |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi John:
Well, I'm a bit further than a few hundred from you... All the way out in
NJ.
Wish I was closer.
Barry
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:25 PM, JohnF wrote:
> **
> Where are you located? I'd love to have my prop balanced, but I doubt
> there's anyone doing this within a few hundred miles of me. (Central
> Colorado)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* FLYaDIVE
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:29 AM
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: Prop-Balancing a TD
>
> Hi Gaggle:
>
> A bit of an unusual question.
> I have balanced props using dynamic balancing on planes, but, they were
> all trike gear.
> Now I want to balance the prop on an RV6 (Tail Dragger).
> Since there is a nose up attitude and the prop is not sitting S&L, my
> thoughts are; asymmetric loading would affect the outcome.
> And two things would happen:
> 1 - The prop would not reach the highest possible RPM and
> 2 - I would be fighting the asymmetric loading and never be able
> to achieve a balance in the S&L configuration.
>
> So, if I am correct about my concerns; how can I secure the plane in a S&L
> ground attitude?
>
> Thanks Gaggle,
>
> Barry
>
> PS
> I want to do this so bad because I just did a plane where I was able to
> reduce the displacement from 0.38 to 0.04 IPS
> WOW! What a noticeable physical difference that made.
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
A quick reminder that November is the annual Matronics List Fund Raiser. The Lists
are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are covered solely
through your Contributions during this time of the year.
*Your* personal Contribution makes a difference and keeps all of the Matronics
Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free.
Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running for another
great year!
Use a credit card or your PayPal account here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by sending a personal check to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop-Balancing a TD |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
The same technology used to dynamically balance an airplane propellor is used to
balance helicopter rotors. It does not matter what the angle of the rotating
disk is with respect to the earth's gravitational field. It is measuring the
rotating mass imbalance with respect to its rotational center axis.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388322#388322
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop-Balancing a TD |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I'm with Thom,
I to balance props and have owned a helicopter. The angle won't make any difference.
It is the rotating mass. You do not need full in flight rpm. I use 4800-5000
on the ground to balance. This depends on each persons prop rpm setup on
their individual plane. The balancing instrument doesn't care because you just
plug that number in and it gets divided by 2.43 any way because we have the gear
reduction.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388324#388324
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop-Balancing a TD |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
...I doubt there's anyone doing this within a few hundred miles of me. (Central
Colorado) ....
Many active FBOs with repair stations offer dynamic prop balancing. They are getting
more and more common as the price of equipment comes down. If I was doing
mechanic work even half-time, I'd buy one but I'm still trying to be retired
and only do actual work on other's airplanes once in a while.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388325#388325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Some Nice Comments... |
Dear Listers,
I've been getting some very nice comments from Listers along with their List Support
Contributions. I've shared a number of them below. Please read them over
and see what your fellow Listers think of the Lists and Forums.
Please make a Contribution today to support the continued upgrade and operation
of these services.
There are lots of sweet gifts available this year, so please browse the nice selection
and pickup something fun with your qualifying Contribution!
You may use a credit card or your PayPal account here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or feel free to send a personal check to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your generous support! It is very much appreciated!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
-------------------- What Listers Are Saying About The Lists --------------------
I have been flying my Pietenpol for a month now and am
enjoying the fruits of ten hard years of work. I seriously
doubt it would ever have been finished but for the help,
encouragement and friendships I've received and made through
the Pietenpol list.
Douwe B
Outstanding service to the flying community.
George A
Matt, I look forward to support each others projects,
Glenn B
Great list!!! Thanks for all your efforts!
Roger C
Thank you for keeping up the lists. Without it i would never
have completed my aircraft.
Stan S
Keep up the good work my friend. I don't think I could ever
finish my Pietenpol Air Camper without the help I get from
this List.
Tom S
Thank you for keeping these list alive.
Lee V
The List is invaluable!!
Svein J
Thanks for continuing to provide the list service!
Earl S
You have a really GREAT service. Thankyou so much I've been on
for nearly 30 years and I still check-in every morning.
John B
I rely fully on the lists which govern my every decision. The
flexibility provides the security I seek.
Fergus K
My RV 7 Finally flies... 7 years of Matronics.com certainly
helped.
Martin H
Great service here, thanks! I am just getting back to a
project I dropped for a few years, great to see your site
and all the folks again!
James C
Thanks for the great site.
Robert U
The Rotax list is good and the AeroElectric list outstanding!
Jay H
Thank you for a great resource!
Jack T
Thanks for your great record of outstanding service to the
homebuilding community!
Larry W
This service is invaluable.
Michael W
You're doing a great job Matt.
Robert D
Thanks for all your work, its a great asset to all.
John F
Thank you for your time & effort Matt!
Ted W
Matt, been a follower since 2005 on the -10 list, now
starting an -8. Keep up the great work!
John M
Still my favorite place to hang out.
William W
I'm not a Piet builder, but this is the most informative and
congenial list I've ever run across. Please forgive my
lurking-I learn a LOT here!
Ken M
Many thanks for keeping this alive, keep pushing!
Adrian C
Thanks! Please keep r going!
Rich Z
Many thanks for your hard work.
Robert C
Thanks for the Lists! I probably need to subscribe to a few
more...
John M
Been a quick 14 years. Think I subscribed to the Kolb
List in 1998, when I got my first computer. Thanks for
keeping everything running smoothly for all these years.
John H
Great resource - thank you.
David M
I don't post very much, but get the postings, a lot of really
practical info.
John N
Great job Matt, thanks for all you do.
Roger M
Thanks for ANOTHER great year, Matt! True grassroots
experimental aviation has been pushed aside in many ways.
But the List represents the evolution of this great
tradition of home-building. One man, the plans, the tools,
and the List - that's all you need to build the dream!
Robert B
This message board is a real help to my project and creating
friendships.
John S
Many thanks for your continuing excellent work.
Mike G
Thank you for your work Matt. Your lists have helped me a
great deal during the construction of my plane.
Hal B
Nice List
Van E
These lists are priceless for builders.
Ronald C
Thanks for keeping me in touch with the Pulsar community.
Otto S
Thanks for keeping up this great warbird sight!!
Yak Ron
Thanks for providing all the lists for so many years.
H H
Thanks for all that you do. Your dedication is much appreciated!
Warren H
Best service on the internet!
Owen B
I have learned so much from the "list".
Nick C
Great Service You Are Providing!
Giffen M
Thanks so much for maintaining these great resources.
Dave S
I no longer fly due to age and health problems, but I still
enjoy the reading from other pilots.
Dallas S
This is a wonderful site.
Robert B
Useful service over the last year - thanks.
Om T
-------------------- What Listers Are Saying About The Lists --------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | "Black Friday" For List Fund Raiser...? |
Dear Listers,
The number of List subscriptions are up by a fair amount this year, but support
during this year's Fund Raiser is substantially behind last year, and there's
only about a week left until the end of the Fund Raiser. I have always preferred
a non-commercial List experience as many, many members have also expressed
that they do as well. However, if the yearly fund raiser cannot generate sufficient
funds to keep the bills paid, other sources of income might be required
including some sort of advertising. Please don't let that happen! Your personal
Contribution of $20 or $30 goes a long ways to keeping this operation a
float.
Please make sure your name is on this year's List of Contributors!
The List Contribution site is secure, quick, and easy:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just A Few More Days To Make Your List Contribution... |
There is less than a week left in this year's List Fund Raiser and only a few short
days to grab one of the great Contribution Gifts available this year. Support
is still significantly lagging behind last year at this point but hopefully
it will pick up here towards the end. Please remember that it is solely the
Contributions of List members that keeps the Lists up and running as there
is no commercialism or advertising on the Matronics Lists and Forums.
The List Contribution web site is secure, fast, and easy and you can use a credit
card, Paypal, or a personal check:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I want to thank everyone that has already made a generous contribution to support
the Lists!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics EMail List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Contributions Down By 23%... |
Dear Listers,
As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind
last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply
to cover my operating
costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists
and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid.
I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet
connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space.
I also maintain a full
backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the
event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive
data could be restored
onto a new server in a matter of hours.
All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of
my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I
ask that members that
feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each
year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services.
If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive
gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you
can use a credit card,
Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Coming |
in December!
Dear Listers,
There's just a couple more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser and that means
the List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I
post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the
Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their
appreciation for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution |
Today!
There are only three days left until the end of this year's List Fund Raiser.
Please take a minute to show your support as so many others have this year and
make sure YOUR name is on the forthcoming List of Contributors!
Its quick and easy using the secure web site with a credit card or PayPal:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by sending your personal check to:
Matronics Lists c/o Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your support of these List services!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brad Shafer" <bshafer708(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Oil in Turbo on 914 |
Looking for some advice. My 914 hasn't been run for about 18 months. Oil has
been collecting in the bottom of the turbo. I have the hose between the
turbo and intercooler disconnected and I can suck up oil with paper towels
in that opening. After about 2 months, the oil leaks back in. Any
suggestions on what could be causing this? And can I run the engine with the
turbo to intercooler to intake disconnected? I'm assuming it would just run
like a 912 but not sure. I would only do that for testing.
Thanks,
Brad
Europa XS with Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oil in Turbo on 914 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
You should clean and blow out each line with oil to the turbo. If the check valve
sticks which is probably what is happening with oil in the turbo it just needs
cleaning.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389356#389356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... |
Dear Listers,
There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. Over the last
couple of weeks I have received some more really nice comments from members
on what the Lists have meant to them. I have included a few more of them below.
Please read over the comments and ponder on your own feelings about the Lists
and the support and camaraderie you have found here.
We are still behind last year in terms of the number of contributions. I really
want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take
resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the
operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps
things going. Please make a Contribution today.
If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time
to do it!
Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution
web site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a check in the mail:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
==================== A Few List Member Comments =====================
I have been flying my Pietenpol for a month now and am
enjoying the fruits of ten hard years of work. I seriously
doubt it would ever have been finished but for the help,
encouragement and friendships I've received and made through
the Pietenpol list.
Douwe B
Hey-Long time subscriber, zero-time contributor. Just a
note of thanks. This is first time I have the resources to
contribute. Thanks for carrying a lightweight for years and
a special thanks for your time and effort.
Billy R
My 601 hd is flying with the help with the listers.
Noel G
A very useful facility.
Graeme B
..great site!
Robert C
Great Pietenpol site!
Don Y
Not active but always interested in keeping up. Enjoy
when I can.
Richard R
Dave and Tim from Aircrafters just want to reiterate our
thanks for hosting the lists.
Tim F.
I don't have a lot to give at this time of year, but I
hope my contribution helps none the less. I really enjoy
the message board.
Mark C
Thanks to your continued work on maintaining these lists.
Ralph C
The lists and the various contributors have been a great
help while I was building and also now that I'm flying.
Albert G
Very helpful tools for the homebuilder.
Vaughn T
We appreciate your great help!
Richard H
Many of our customers have expressed to us that you
provide them with an invaluable service - and we agree!
Bill B
I Fly a Quicksilver GT400 but love to read what the Kolb
boys have to say and it was on your list that I found out
about the Yamaha product Ring Free,, now called engine med,
that shit works.. no carbon in my rings or any to speak of
with the use of the Yamaha product with a premix 503 with
over 300 hrs of use.. thanks to your Kolb bulletin board.
Robert B
You are providing a valuable service that helps a lot of
people through information sharing. When I built my
Pietenpol over 40 years ago we were largely on our own,
working without a resource like this list.
Graham H
Thanks for the opportunity to link us all, keep the good work!
Peter B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Its November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again;
number 49 actually! But it also means that its that last official day of
the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up
one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!!
If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting
it off for some reason, NOW is the time!
I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want
to be known as a person that supported the Lists!
I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in
support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running
and I don't ever forget it.
The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making
your Contribution right now:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you to all in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
FOR SALE
EGT PROBE
MICRO-1000
K TYPE
90 Deg smooth bend mounting tube
GROUNDED
CLAMP MOUNTING for the exhaust pipes
ACS PRICE $56 EA ---> $224 <--- This is HIGH
All 4 probes $180 <--- SAVE
Probes were used for less than one (1) hour
Let me know what type of connector end you require I will install them for
you FREE.
Need a Male - Female Connector ends? Will install for FREE and supply the
mating end for FREE.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2012 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2012 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended about a week
ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. It is the
people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible!
Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and
running!
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, and Andy for their generous support through the
supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some excellent products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2012 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2012.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hello All.
Rotax 914 engine,
Aircraft in the SE England, temp about +3 first flight for about 6 weeks.
Fuel Mogas, Full Charged Battery, Engine Gurgled,Full Choke on Start.
I had difficulty in starting the engine, it took a long time before it fired and
when it did i had ?? Detonation or Pre ignition not sure which term would suit
but the engine fire to soon and pushed the piston down before it passed over TDC
causing sudden stopping ,or Prop flickering to too and throw, not good.
Is there a way to stop this happening , or control settings to use for cold starts.,
the plane has a tendency to do this.
I have a second problem, on the Right Mag i get a drop and it goes into rough running
misfiring banging, From memory i can,t remember if its the top or bottom
plugs on the Right Key Position, but all the plugs changed about 25 or 30 hours
ago.
Another Question with regards to the Coils, 4 of them.
Are they all the same, ie, no timings involved can use any other one,
Its just a Coil ?? is that correct.
With regards to the Fuel Mogas, thinking of trying Mogas Super (UK) spec.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390302#390302
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net> |
Hi All,
I have a 912S and recently have noticed a trend of higher exhaust gas temps on
the rear two cylinders. I know that CHT will read higher on the two rear cylinders
but not sure if that same reason would apply to EGT as well. The temps are
just 20 to 30 degrees below max. About to take off the cowlings and start my
annual and wanted to hear some thoughts on this subject from you all.
Thanks.
Troy Maynor
Europa Monowheel Classic
195 hours
912S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390319#390319
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gang:
I was just informed of an article in the NEWARK STAR LEDGER (NEWARK, NJ
NEWSPAPER), Page 21.
Gas Stations being shut down because they are selling AVIATION GAS!!!
Too bad I did not know which station were selling it... I would have loaded
up! Especially at $3.60 a Gallon. <-- High Test. Maybe it was in the
REGULAR Pumps at $3.26 a Gallon???
But, the questions have to be asked:
1 - If there is so much control over AvGas <--- So they say as to keep
prices high. Where was the control on the delivery?
2 - Was AvGAs put into uncontrolled MoGas delivery vehicles?
3 - Was MoGas put into uncontrolled AvGas delivery vehicles?
4 - Have the Controlled Delivery Vehicles now been contaminated with MoGas?
5 - OMG ! ! ! ... What will our Ever Vigilant EPA do now that LEAD is being
burned by surface vehicles? And...
6 - Who picks up the $TAB$ on the destroyed Catalytic Converters. <--- NJ
in all their wisdom has done away with automobile inspection. Except
for EMISSIONS TESTING. So, if your car fails and you don't even know you
had a load of AvGas who pays for the repairs??? AND even if you do know...
WHO PAYS!
No coffee as yet so these are the only questions I can come up with at this
time.
Maybe you have a few to ask?
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arthur Glaser <artglaser(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations |
I believe it was jet fuel.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: grumman-gang <grumman-gang@mai
lman.xmission.com>=0ASent: Thu, December 13, 2012 8:32:50 AM=0ASubject: Rot
axEngines-List: AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations=0A=0AGang: =0A=0AI
was just informed of an article in the NEWARK STAR LEDGER (NEWARK, NJ =0ANE
WSPAPER), Page 21.=0A=0AGas Stations being shut down because they are selli
ng AVIATION GAS!!!=0A=0AToo bad I did not know which station were selling i
t... I would have loaded up! =0A-Especially at $3.60 a Gallon. <-- High T
est. -Maybe it was in the REGULAR Pumps =0Aat $3.26 a Gallon???=0ABut, th
e questions have to be asked:=0A1 - If there is so much control over AvGas
<--- So they say as to keep prices =0Ahigh. -Where was the control on the
delivery?=0A2 - Was AvGAs put into-uncontrolled-MoGas delivery vehicle
s?=0A3 - Was MoGas put into uncontrolled AvGas delivery vehicles?=0A4 - Hav
e the Controlled Delivery Vehicles now been-contaminated-with MoGas?=0A
5 - OMG ! ! ! ... What will our Ever Vigilant EPA do now that LEAD is being
=0Aburned by surface vehicles? And...=0A6 - Who picks up the $TAB$ on the
-destroyed-Catalytic-Converters. <--- NJ in all =0Atheir-wisdom-h
as done away with automobile inspection. -Except =0Afor-EMISSIONS-TES
TING. -So, if your car fails and you don't even know you had a =0Aload of
AvGas who pays for the repairs??? -AND even if you do know... WHO PAYS!
=0A=0ANo coffee as yet so these are the only questions I can come up with a
====== =0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arthur Glaser <artglaser(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations |
Correction, AV Web said it was 100 LL=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________
_________=0AFrom: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: grumman-gang <grumman
-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com>=0ASent: Thu, December 13, 2012 8:32:50 AM=0ASub
ject: RotaxEngines-List: AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations=0A=0AGang:
=0A=0AI was just informed of an article in the NEWARK STAR LEDGER (NEWARK,
NJ =0ANEWSPAPER), Page 21.=0A=0AGas Stations being shut down because they
are selling AVIATION GAS!!!=0A=0AToo bad I did not know which station were
selling it... I would have loaded up! =0A-Especially at $3.60 a Gallon. <
-- High Test. -Maybe it was in the REGULAR Pumps =0Aat $3.26 a Gallon???
=0ABut, the questions have to be asked:=0A1 - If there is so much control o
ver AvGas <--- So they say as to keep prices =0Ahigh. -Where was the cont
rol on the delivery?=0A2 - Was AvGAs put into-uncontrolled-MoGas delive
ry vehicles?=0A3 - Was MoGas put into uncontrolled AvGas delivery vehicles?
=0A4 - Have the Controlled Delivery Vehicles now been-contaminated-with
MoGas?=0A5 - OMG ! ! ! ... What will our Ever Vigilant EPA do now that LEA
D is being =0Aburned by surface vehicles? And...=0A6 - Who picks up the $TA
B$ on the-destroyed-Catalytic-Converters. <--- NJ in all =0Atheir-w
isdom-has done away with automobile inspection. -Except =0Afor-EMISSI
ONS-TESTING. -So, if your car fails and you don't even know you had a
=0Aload of AvGas who pays for the repairs??? -AND even if you do know...
WHO PAYS!=0A=0ANo coffee as yet so these are the only questions I can come
up with at this =0Atime.=0AMaybe you have a few to ask?=0A=0A=0ABarry=0A _
-========================
-========================
========= =0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AvGas Available at local MoGas Stations |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
FYI,
See --
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/12/three_mercer_county_gas_statio.html
for the full story. Looks like Jet Fuel.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 8:19 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Gang:
I was just informed of an article in the NEWARK STAR LEDGER (NEWARK, NJ NEWSPAPER),
Page 21.
Gas Stations being shut down because they are selling AVIATION GAS!!!
Too bad I did not know which station were selling it... I would have loaded up!
Especially at $3.60 a Gallon. <-- High Test. Maybe it was in the REGULAR Pumps
at $3.26 a Gallon???
But, the questions have to be asked:
1 - If there is so much control over AvGas <--- So they say as to keep prices high.
Where was the control on the delivery?
2 - Was AvGAs put into uncontrolled MoGas delivery vehicles?
3 - Was MoGas put into uncontrolled AvGas delivery vehicles?
4 - Have the Controlled Delivery Vehicles now been contaminated with MoGas?
5 - OMG ! ! ! ... What will our Ever Vigilant EPA do now that LEAD is being burned
by surface vehicles? And...
6 - Who picks up the $TAB$ on the destroyed Catalytic Converters. <--- NJ in all
their wisdom has done away with automobile inspection. Except for EMISSIONS
TESTING. So, if your car fails and you don't even know you had a load of AvGas
who pays for the repairs??? AND even if you do know... WHO PAYS!
No coffee as yet so these are the only questions I can come up with at this time.
Maybe you have a few to ask?
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clive Richards" <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Alan
If you go to www.conairsports.co.uk web site you can find link to download
their good article on the Rotax plus installation & on line maintenance
manuals for free. They also sell a soft start module to delay firing to
retro fit to the Ducati ignition modules if required. If you have a recent
engine according to the manual the soft start is built in to use but will
requires connecting.
I have no experience of running a Rotax as yet as plane build is not
completed and the engine is not new, a previous owner suggested the soft
start module would be a good idea.
Be aware that each ignition module fires 2 plugs at the same time one on
compression stroke before TDC & the other I presume on exhaust stroke on
another cylinder.
Regards Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
>
>
> Hello All.
> Rotax 914 engine,
> Aircraft in the SE England, temp about +3 first flight for about 6 weeks.
> Fuel Mogas, Full Charged Battery, Engine Gurgled,Full Choke on Start.
> I had difficulty in starting the engine, it took a long time before it
> fired and when it did i had ?? Detonation or Pre ignition not sure which
> term would suit
> but the engine fire to soon and pushed the piston down before it passed
> over TDC causing sudden stopping ,or Prop flickering to too and throw, not
> good.
> Is there a way to stop this happening , or control settings to use for
> cold starts., the plane has a tendency to do this.
> I have a second problem, on the Right Mag i get a drop and it goes into
> rough running misfiring banging, From memory i can,t remember if its the
> top or bottom plugs on the Right Key Position, but all the plugs changed
> about 25 or 30 hours ago.
> Another Question with regards to the Coils, 4 of them.
> Are they all the same, ie, no timings involved can use any other one,
> Its just a Coil ?? is that correct.
> With regards to the Fuel Mogas, thinking of trying Mogas Super (UK) spec.
>
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390302#390302
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)fmwildblue.com> |
Interesting reading in current issue of Sport Aviation. See link below:
http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201212#pg28
It sites CHT responds to EGT in regards to fuel burn and rpm (especially
totally air-cooled engines). Your heads have oil cooling to help.
Any major changes in outside air temps? Where are you located?
Joe Connell
Kitfox II N95JJ
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: EGT Indications
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Hi All,
I have a 912S and recently have noticed a trend of higher exhaust gas
temps on
the rear two cylinders. I know that CHT will read higher on the two rear
cylinders
but not sure if that same reason would apply to EGT as well. The temps
are
just 20 to 30 degrees below max. About to take off the cowlings and
start my
annual and wanted to hear some thoughts on this subject from you all.
Thanks.
Troy Maynor
Europa Monowheel Classic
195 hours
912S
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Clive.
How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts are well
over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set you back about
3000.
I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through L&R before
start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags temporally, but
not sure how to do this,?
Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.
I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke of another
cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??
I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same or means
a double spark on the combustion stroke,?
Anybody.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390407#390407
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Hi Y'all,
I can't speak to the costs involved in the various bits and pieces of the engine
other than to say that they do seem pricey.
Clive, to start on one mag, you would have to install a single pole-single-throw switch (like this one, the S700-1-2 ON-OFF, from B & C http://www.bandc.biz/toggleswitch-singlepole.aspx ) to ground one of the ignition modules. Each module has the equivalent of a "P-Lead" on a magneto system. This wire, when grounded, shuts off the ignition module, just like grounding the P-Lead shuts off a magneto. The switch would have to be installed in parallel with one of those wires to provide an alternate ground. Not difficult, just a bit of a PITA. See the Rotax 914 Installation Manual, Sections 19.4.3 & 19.4.4 for more information.
The reason for using a "wasted spark" system is simplicity. In the flat 4 with
180 crank throws there are two pistons at TDC every 180. One on the compression
stroke and one on the exhaust stroke. At the same time there are two pistons
at BDC. That makes it easy to just fire the plugs every 180 in the two pistons
going to TDC. This is done with two tabs, 180 apart, on the flywheel.
Every half rev a tab goes through the trigger coil firing the two cylinders where
the pistons are heading for TDC. Super simple, easy to do & firing the plug
on the exhaust stroke doesn't hurt anything. To try and fire each cylinder
individually, would add a lot of mechanical and electrical complexity that's
just not needed.
I hope this helps.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hi Clive.
How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts are well
over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set you back about
3000.
I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through L&R before
start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags temporally, but
not sure how to do this,?
Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.
I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke of another
cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??
I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same or means
a double spark on the combustion stroke,?
Anybody.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390407#390407
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Alan:
If you have the standard (Usually a BENDIX) OFF - Right - Left - START
switch it automatically grounds the RIGHT Mag during START. That is
because the Left Mag is an Impulse Mag. And you do not want to create a
KICKBACK situation with the Right Mag. During STARTING the Right & Left
mags have a timing difference.
We are talking Lycoming & Continental type engines.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Alan Carter wrot
e:
> alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
>
> Hi Clive.
> How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts ar
e
> well over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set y
ou
> back about =A33000.
>
> I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through
> L&R before start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags
> temporally, but not sure how to do this,?
>
> Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.
> I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke
> of another cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??
>
> I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same
> or means a double spark on the combustion stroke,?
>
> Anybody.
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clive Richards" <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Alan
Discription of ACS & Bendix switch connections as used on most light
aircraft.
Off Connects (inner GRD) L R Terminals together which are
used to earth both magnetos
Right Connects (inner GRD) L Terminals together
which are
used to earth the left magneto
Left Connects (inner GRD) R Terminals together
which are
used to earth the right magneto
Both Connect no Terminals together
Start Connects BAT S Terminals together for starter
solenoid and (inner GRD) (outer GRD) Terminals together which are used
to earth right magneto if required by fitting a link between R & (outer GRD)
terminals
and BO LR L Terminals together not used in
the circuit I have
In the circuit that I have used for a continental 0-200 a negative feed is
connected to BAT , the
starter solonid to S. the Magneto screens which are earthed at the magneto
end are connected to the (inner GRD) terminal the The Right magneto is
connected to R The left magneto is connected to L And There is a link on
the switch connecting R To the adjacent (outer) GRD terminal. Why two
seperate
terminals are marked GRD I have no idea.
As both magnetos have impulse couplings I since removed (outer GRD) R link.
By firing two plugs with each rotation of the engine one pickup coil can be
used to fire two cylinders & removes the need for a distributor.
hope this helps
Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
>
>
> Hello All.
> Rotax 914 engine,
>> Regards
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390302#390302
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hello All.
Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out, the coils
fire two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual ignition system
but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition system, so the distributor
is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as two pistons are coming up
there barrels one on compression and one one exhaust both plugs spark, then this
same happens again as the other two come up there barrels in turn.
So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur later ,
preferably after TDC.
Is that roughly correct
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390415#390415
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Again.
Would warming the engine for 15 minutes with a couple of Hair driers blowing hot
air into the cowling help.??
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390417#390417
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Alan,
You got it! And Super or Super Plus Mogas. From the Rotax 914 Operators Manual:
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hello All.
Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out, the coils
fire two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual ignition system
but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition system, so the distributor
is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as two pistons are coming up
there barrels one on compression and one one exhaust both plugs spark, then this
same happens again as the other two come up there barrels in turn.
So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur later ,
preferably after TDC.
Is that roughly correct
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk" <peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
I think that some of the europa owners who live in properly cold
countries do tricks like this (or a heat pad on a timer).
P
----Original Message----
From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net
Date: 13/12/2012 23:23
Subj: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
Hi Again.
Would warming the engine for 15 minutes with a couple of Hair driers
blowing hot air into the cowling help.??
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390417#390417
Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clive Richards" <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Alan
That appears to be correct the module from Conair will
provide the delay you require at a price on one ignition module. & you will
need to start on this one only. If you have the ignition switch I
described you can achieve this by fitting the link R to outer GRD terminal
R will be the non delayed ignition & you will start on the left. I noticed
an ERROR in my description the feed to BAT terminal should read positive as
negative is earth .
If you have the later Rotax modules you just need to provide a feed
from the start switch wires 26 on schematic in manual. to provide the delay
on both.
Pre heating the engine in cold weather is a good idea if you can achieve
this.
All the best Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 11:07 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
>
>
> Hello All.
> Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out, the
> coils fire two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual
> ignition system but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition
> system, so the distributor is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as
> two pistons are coming up there barrels one on compression and one one
> exhaust both plugs spark, then this same happens again as the other two
> come up there barrels in turn.
> So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur
> later ,
> preferably after TDC.
>
> Is that roughly correct
>
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390415#390415
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clive Richards" <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Alan
Roger has a good point about fuel. Also if you are using
garage fuel it will not keep very long so use immediately, I suggest you
use 91UL if you can get it as this is Avgas without the lead and will
keep much longer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Borger
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
Alan,
You got it! And Super or Super Plus Mogas. From the Rotax 914
Operators Manual:
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Alan Carter
wrote:
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi All.
Phoned Con Air today the Soft Start Module with the 4 pin connectors is for early
engines around the year 2000 like mine, it cost about 140 but you have to be
wired in the cockpit to be able to start on one mag.
You can also purchase a Rotax kit that consists of 2 modules it retards both ignitions
and requires NO cockpit wiring of mags switches, but this kits about
550 probably plus Vat ?? but Will only work with the later 6 pin connections
on the later engines.
For me, Change Fuel to Super Plus, if no good, then wire for 1 mag start,.
if no good, fit Soft Start Module. or wait till summer before i fly.
As you can see i would rather berry my head in the sand and hope it would go away.
My last job was replacing the battery in the GPS and also wiring the main battery
for external charging. I have just looked at the wheel struts why is there
no little pad to put a jack under.?
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390436#390436
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Hi Alan,
Good plan.
I need to install some sort of external charging capability too. And I'm with
you on the jack pad issue!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 14, 2012, at 6:35 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hi All.
Phoned Con Air today the Soft Start Module with the 4 pin connectors is for early
engines around the year 2000 like mine, it cost about 140 but you have to be
wired in the cockpit to be able to start on one mag.
You can also purchase a Rotax kit that consists of 2 modules it retards both ignitions
and requires NO cockpit wiring of mags switches, but this kits about
550 probably plus Vat ?? but Will only work with the later 6 pin connections
on the later engines.
For me, Change Fuel to Super Plus, if no good, then wire for 1 mag start,.
if no good, fit Soft Start Module. or wait till summer before i fly.
As you can see i would rather berry my head in the sand and hope it would go away.
My last job was replacing the battery in the GPS and also wiring the main battery
for external charging. I have just looked at the wheel struts why is there
no little pad to put a jack under.?
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Alan,
Just a word of caution on fuels. In the UK Super-Plus unleaded is generally
refined to meet a standard BS 7800, not EN228. The only Mogas fuel currently
approved by CAA and LAA is that refined to EN228, and without ethanol. The
reason that the Super-Plus unleaded fuels are not approved is that the
vapour pressure of the blend is very high compared with EN228 Mogas or
Avgas. This could lead to an increased risk of vapour locking in flight.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: 13 December 2012 23:32
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
Alan,
You got it! And Super or Super Plus Mogas. From the Rotax 914 Operators
Manual:
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hello All.
Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out, the
coils fire two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual
ignition system but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition
system, so the distributor is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as two
pistons are coming up there barrels one on compression and one one exhaust
both plugs spark, then this same happens again as the other two come up
there barrels in turn.
So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur later
,
preferably after TDC.
Is that roughly correct
Alan
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Bob.
In the UK i saw in a motor cycle shop a complete charging unit made by Suzuki,
eye washer connectors for the battery and a the other end of the wire a flat plastic
plate about 1.1/2"x 1" with a rubber plug covering the connector, guard
to cover the terminals.
The plate was moulded with a plastic retaining clip on the back, a small rectangle
hole would need to be cut for it, and it would self fix into it, either inside
the plane or on the skin outside, Suzuki have there own shaped plugs so yo
would need to buy the whole lot including the maintenance charger.
It looked a neat job.
I leave my charging lead dangling out of the small air vent at the front side of
the cockpit. .I,m just going to plug in and blow the tyers up, as one is a bit
low.
The Suzuki,s Plate would be neater.
How the hell do i change a tyre if i get a flat away from base.?
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390442#390442
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
Hi Brian.
Thanks for the information,
As far as i know Super Plus has no Ethanol in it, ? but will test when i
get a test kit as i want to check out EN228 .
I will also ask in the Europa list if anyone tests for ethanol ?
The vapour locking , don,t know much about this, but more likely in hot
weather maybe ??
If its OK with you, No Names mentioned , i will just say a friend posted
this to me , can anyone update about the vapour locking,
Different country,s have different rules so it may be in regular use.
So might get some feed back.
Regards
Alan
From: Brian Davies
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
Alan,
Just a word of caution on fuels. In the UK Super-Plus unleaded is
generally refined to meet a standard BS 7800, not EN228. The only Mogas
fuel currently approved by CAA and LAA is that refined to EN228, and
without ethanol. The reason that the Super-Plus unleaded fuels are not
approved is that the vapour pressure of the blend is very high compared
with EN228 Mogas or Avgas. This could lead to an increased risk of
vapour locking in flight.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert Borger
Sent: 13 December 2012 23:32
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
Alan,
You got it! And Super or Super Plus Mogas. From the Rotax 914
Operators Manual:
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 13, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Alan Carter
wrote:
Hello All.
Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out, the
coils fire two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual
ignition system but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition
system, so the distributor is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as
two pistons are coming up there barrels one on compression and one one
exhaust both plugs spark, then this same happens again as the other two
come up there barrels in turn.
So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur
later ,
preferably after TDC.
Is that roughly correct
Alan
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / 12/14/12
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Hi Alan,
I need to put something like that charging plug together for my battery. I'll
contact the folks who make my charger to see if they have or can come up with
such.
The way I remove/replace a tire is with a suitably sized saw horse with a well
padded top. I get under the wing and lift with my legs, my back supporting the
wing. Then I pull the saw horse (I don't know what you Brits call it, but I'll
provide a picture if you need) under the wing and let the wing down on the
padding. If all is properly sized, the sawhorse will support the wing with the
wheel just off the ground. It's a heck of a lot easier and better if you have
someone else to help, but if this old fart can accomplish it alone almost
anyone who doesn't have a bad back should be able to do it.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 14, 2012, at 8:09 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hi Bob.
In the UK i saw in a motor cycle shop a complete charging unit made by Suzuki,
eye washer connectors for the battery and a the other end of the wire a flat plastic
plate about 1.1/2"x 1" with a rubber plug covering the connector, guard
to cover the terminals.
The plate was moulded with a plastic retaining clip on the back, a small rectangle
hole would need to be cut for it, and it would self fix into it, either inside
the plane or on the skin outside, Suzuki have there own shaped plugs so yo
would need to buy the whole lot including the maintenance charger.
It looked a neat job.
I leave my charging lead dangling out of the small air vent at the front side of
the cockpit. .I,m just going to plug in and blow the tyers up, as one is a bit
low.
The Suzuki,s Plate would be neater.
How the hell do i change a tyre if i get a flat away from base.?
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Bob
"Don,t know what the Brits call it", There,s only me, and i call it a saw horse.
I can even make one. Advanced C&Gs in Carpentry and Joinery many years ago.
Going back to Fuel, A friend mail me with this.
In the UK Super-Plus unleaded is generally refined to meet a standard BS 7800,
not EN228. The only Mogas fuel currently approved by CAA and LAA is that refined
to EN228, and without ethanol. The reason that the Super-Plus unleaded fuels
are not approved is that the vapour pressure of the blend is very high compared
with EN228 Mogas or Avgas. This could lead to an increased risk of vapour
locking in flight.
I think there is no ethanol in Super Plus , but don,t know much about vapour locking,
would have thought only in summer temps, but does anybody use Super Plus
fuel, or can give some input on this subject as the fuel is approved by Rotax.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390445#390445
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple and lightweight
for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends inboard from the
axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and might require a
different connection, but the principle is the same.
A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage. The
over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video I made
that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep it from falling
if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc06w&index=8
or
http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g
The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke in time,
so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for durability.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390475#390475
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Very Nice Thom....
Sweet & Simple
Barry
On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
> >
>
> Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple
> and lightweight for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends
> inboard from the axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and
> might require a different connection, but the principle is the same.
>
> A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage.
> The over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video
> I made that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep
> it from falling if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc06w&index=8
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g
>
> The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke
> in time, so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for
> durability.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
>
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> no engine
> FOR SALE
>
> Diamond Katana DA20-A1
> Rotax 912 F3
>
> Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
> - Anonymous
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390475#390475
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | Damien Graham <dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM> |
Thom that is a great idea. I am going to make one myself.
Regards,
Damien
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 9:55 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Very Nice Thom....
>
> Sweet & Simple
>
> Barry
>
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
m>
>>
>> Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple
and lightweight for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends inboar
d from the axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and might r
equire a different connection, but the principle is the same.
>>
>> A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage
. The over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video
I made that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep
it from falling if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc
06w&index=8
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g
>>
>> The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke
in time, so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for du
rability.
>>
>> --------
>> Thom Riddle
>> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
>>
>> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
>> no engine
>> FOR SALE
>>
>> Diamond Katana DA20-A1
>> Rotax 912 F3
>>
>> Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
>> - Anonymous
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390475#390475
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> le, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-
List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
If you make one and want to be able to use it on soft ground, take a small piece
of plywood with you for the over-center jack to sit/work on. Otherwise it will
just sink into soft surface.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390485#390485
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hello ALL
First off all its a Rotax 914 ignition system.
The" Mag Key Switch" is OFF>L>R>Both>Start.
There are 4 Mag Coils each having two HT leads going to the plugs.
The 4 Mag Coil Units are mounted all together on a bracket attached to the engine.
As far as i can make out, the:
TOP 2 Mag Coil Units go to the TOP Plugs.
BOTTOM 2 Mag Coil Units go to the BOTTOM Plugs.
Again as far as i can make out from the"Cockpit Mag Switch", Key at (L) goes to
the TOP Coils and TOP Plugs and with the Key at (R) goes to the BOTTOM Coils,and
BOTTOM Plugs.
Are you keeping up with this ! or am i confusing myself.
With the Key in position (L) which Two Coils Units are Working, ie Live and (sparking)
going to which plugs.?
Which Mag Drop am i Checking.?
I would say i am Checking the Left Mag which is the Top Coils Units going to the
Top plugs, and the Mag Drop i see is due to the Right Mag being off line.
But Hay,With the key at (L) Am i Grounding out the (Left) mag, so its the other
one,??which is live ? ie the (Right) mag that is working ??and i am seeing how
good it is.
Confusing , Sometimes things are not what they seem to be.
So which is it you Petrol Heads.
Requards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390504#390504
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Alan:
It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the
Starter Motor.
The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the output
of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask you
and the gaggle a couple of questions:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
> alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
>
> Hello ALL
> First off all its a Rotax 914 ignition system.
> The" Mag Key Switch" is OFF>L>R>Both>Start.
> There are 4 Mag Coils each having two HT leads going to the plugs.
> The 4 Mag Coil Units are mounted all together on a bracket attached to the
> engine.
> As far as i can make out, the:
> TOP 2 Mag Coil Units go to the TOP Plugs.
> BOTTOM 2 Mag Coil Units go to the BOTTOM Plugs.
>
> Again as far as i can make out from the"Cockpit Mag Switch", Key at (L)
> goes to the TOP Coils and TOP Plugs and with the Key at (R) goes to the
> BOTTOM Coils,and BOTTOM Plugs.
> Are you keeping up with this ! or am i confusing myself.
>
> With the Key in position (L) which Two Coils Units are Working, ie Live
> and (sparking) going to which plugs.?
>
> Which Mag Drop am i Checking.?
>
> I would say i am Checking the Left Mag which is the Top Coils Units going
> to the Top plugs, and the Mag Drop i see is due to the Right Mag being off
> line.
>
> But Hay,With the key at (L) Am i Grounding out the (Left) mag, so its the
> other one,??which is live ? ie the (Right) mag that is working ??and i am
> seeing how good it is.
>
> Confusing , Sometimes things are not what they seem to be.
>
> So which is it you Petrol Heads.
> Requards.
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390504#390504
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami" <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
<<.... or wait till summer before i fly.>>
Or stick a hairdrier under the cowl for 20 minutes prior to start up.
This works for me, even when the engine has been cold soaked at -3C.
Duncan McF.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Carter
Sent: 14 December 2012 12:36
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough
-->
Hi All.
Phoned Con Air today the Soft Start Module with the 4 pin connectors is for
early engines around the year 2000 like mine, it cost about 140 but you
have to be wired in the cockpit to be able to start on one mag.
You can also purchase a Rotax kit that consists of 2 modules it retards
both ignitions and requires NO cockpit wiring of mags switches, but this
kits about 550 probably plus Vat ?? but Will only work with the later 6
pin connections on the later engines.
For me, Change Fuel to Super Plus, if no good, then wire for 1 mag start,.
if no good, fit Soft Start Module. or wait till summer before i fly.
As you can see i would rather berry my head in the sand and hope it would go
away.
My last job was replacing the battery in the GPS and also wiring the main
battery for external charging. I have just looked at the wheel struts why is
there no little pad to put a jack under.?
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390436#390436
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hello Barry.
Many thanks, So far so good all makes sense.
With regards to:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
I have no idea :
But the 914 engine is year 2000, and has 4 pin connectors.
I replaced a coil some time ago, but can,t remember how i traced the faulty one,
except i swapped them around, go really fed up and decided if i every have
to do this job again i will know where every lead goes.
So on every HT cable i placed coloured cable tie,s .
(Red being Port side, ie Left and Green Being Starboard side, ie Right. ie (as
in Nav lights)
So all my Left mag HT leads are Red, going to the top set of coils marked
with Red stickers.
And all my Right mag HT leads are Green,going to the Bottom set of coils which
you,v guessed it has Green stickers on them.
And on my Rotary Mag Switch in the cockpit i have a little sticker L >Red
and R>Green .
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =Port which is Red markers and its the 2 Red Coils with its 4 Red Leads which
are the Top Plugs that i am checking.
And you have confirmed position L = live.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390514#390514
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Barry,
You are absolutely correct for a magneto based system. Rotax does not
use magnetos. Rotax uses a CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) system,
a type of electronic ignition that does not require a separate power
source. Like a mag, the ignition module is grounded to prevent it from
firing. Your explanation is, again, correct for the Rotax if you
substitute "ignition module" for "MAG."
Where it falls apart is when you went to "Impulse Coupler." Because
it's not a mag, there are no impulse couplers. The Rotax CDI system is
triggered by a pair of tabs on the flywheel. Below ~800 RPM the system
triggers on the trailing edge of the tab (4=BABTDC or 3=BAATDC depending
on the age of the system). Once the engine starts, >800 RPM, the system
triggers on the leading edge of the tab.
Most Rotax folks use the term "MAG" for simplicity sake, because that's
what most folks are familiar with.
Kind of like the "Choke" which isn't really a choke, it's a separate
little carb which is activated to provide a richer mixture on startup.
Same function as the choke on a "normal" engine, just a different
physical implementation.
Alan,
The only sure way to determine which module is grounded when your key is
in any specific position is by making a continuity check from the back
of the key to the grounding lead on each ignition module. Or, I guess
you could put the key in a position and see which of your grounding
leads has continuity to ground, that is, which is grounded. Your older
system uses 4 modules, my system is just enough newer (2002) to use only
two modules, labeled A & B. So, I guess I should really have my two
grounding switches labeled A & B rather than L & R. And on the 914. one
module fires the upper and the other module the lower plugs. On the 912
& 912S, a module fires the upper on one side and lower on the other.
The Rotax 9xx engines aren't your daddy's Lycoming/Continental. Twin
carbs, CDI, gearbox and most happy when turning over 5000 RPM while
burning 4 - 5 gph.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:34 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Alan:
It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the
Starter Motor.
The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the
output of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask
you and the gaggle a couple of questions:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Barry ,Bob.
Barry i like your description, Ground and live, and Bob i follow what you are saying
as in my younger days the old Cessna 150 had a impulse mag, and that was
the left one, and as far as i can remember with the key at start it started on
the left impulse mag only.
You mention A&B modules, My system Has A&B ignition from the "two flat electronic
ignition modules" located laying over the the 4 coil units.
To find the Continuity grounding ete, to check which is left and right.
I think you said on the 914 ignition "A" fires the Top Plugs, so provided the person
that built my Europa connected the mag wire the correct way round
ie Ignition A to the Left key position i think i have it colour labeled up correct
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =(Port which is my Red marked system) electronic ignition module "A" plus the
2 Upper Red marked Coils, plus the 4 Red marked HT Leads which are going to
the Top Plugs.
To check this out i need to continuity ground the mags , I will have to do it the
incorrect way and take a chance,
Start the engine with all the Top leads off, and turn the key to the (L)
if it stops it means L = top plugs, confirming all is correct as i have marked.
Which is what i would be hoping and think this will be the case.
Alan
Continued :: Part 2
I want a separate starter press button switch.
So the plan is to find on the back of my rotary ignition switch the + power live
lead and its return lead to the starter solenoid.
Extend these two wires so they reach the new push to start switch which will be
mounted about 10" away fro the mag switch.
Leave all the mag leads intact on the rotary switch , so now i can still key select
individual mags,
The end goal will be to fitt the Soft start module.
This is a photo of the Rotax Switch
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/conair-soft-start-module-ssm-735-p.asp
It has 3 terminals, ??
Alan
.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390536#390536
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Alan,
Do not operate the engine with any spark plug wires removed. Never pull a spark
plug wire when the engine is running. Don't turn over the engine with a spark
plug wire removed to look for a spark. You will destroy the module to which
the plug is connected. That spark energy has to go somewhere and if you don't
put it in a plug it is dumped in the module and can fry the module. Very expensive
test method to ensure you kill a module.
Locate the proper grounding lead on each module and check for continuity to the
switch. Or, put the switch on, say, Left, this would ground the "Right" mag
(ignition module) then see which module has the grounding lead continuity to ground.
If it is wired as per the installation guide, only one will show continuity
to ground. That will tell you which module (A or B) is wired to left or
right. Then you can disconnect the battery ground wire, put the switch in start
and see if either ignition module is grounded for a single module start.
If you find one is grounded for start, you can put the soft start module on the
other module and go straight with your ignition switch setup. If it is not
grounding either module, then you will have to install a separate grounding switch
for one module and put the soft start on the other module.
Part 2:
Not a bad idea. But you might consider going the full route and dump the rotary
ignition switch all together and go with separate grounding switches for each
module and a separate push button or spring loaded toggle starter switch. With
the push button starter switch, this is my set up.
There are even ways you can do this with two toggle switches, rather than three. One switch is a simple SPST to ground one ignition. The other is a DPTT (Double Pole Triple Throw) switch with positions: closed (grounding a module), open (ungrounding), closed (voltage to starter solenoid) which is spring loaded to the center. { http://www.bandc.biz/toggleswitch-doublepole.aspx S700-2-5 (ON)-OFF-ON }. I think Bob Nuckolls has a couple Z diagrams which show the use of this switch. If not, I can show you how to wire it and can provide pictures and confirmation tests as to switch positions and continuities.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:27 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hi Barry ,Bob.
Barry i like your description, Ground and live, and Bob i follow what you are saying
as in my younger days the old Cessna 150 had a impulse mag, and that was
the left one, and as far as i can remember with the key at start it started on
the left impulse mag only.
You mention A&B modules, My system Has A&B ignition from the "two flat electronic
ignition modules" located laying over the the 4 coil units.
To find the Continuity grounding ete, to check which is left and right.
I think you said on the 914 ignition "A" fires the Top Plugs, so provided the person
that built my Europa connected the mag wire the correct way round
ie Ignition A to the Left key position i think i have it colour labeled up correct
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =(Port which is my Red marked system) electronic ignition module "A" plus the
2 Upper Red marked Coils, plus the 4 Red marked HT Leads which are going to
the Top Plugs.
To check this out i need to continuity ground the mags , I will have to do it the
incorrect way and take a chance,
Start the engine with all the Top leads off, and turn the key to the (L)
if it stops it means L = top plugs, confirming all is correct as i have marked.
Which is what i would be hoping and think this will be the case.
Alan
Continued :: Part 2
I want a separate starter press button switch.
So the plan is to find on the back of my rotary ignition switch the + power live
lead and its return lead to the starter solenoid.
Extend these two wires so they reach the new push to start switch which will be
mounted about 10" away fro the mag switch.
Leave all the mag leads intact on the rotary switch , so now i can still key select
individual mags,
The end goal will be to fitt the Soft start module.
This is a photo of the Rotax Switch
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/conair-soft-start-module-ssm-735-p.asp
It has 3 terminals, ??
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Goodings <goodings(at)yorku.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag Rough |
PLEASE don't make something complicated out of something simple. To
change a wheel or whatever on a Zenair Zodiac, simply get your shoulders
under the spar and lift the wheel off the ground. My 70-year-old-legs are
plenty strong enough. (Further outboard gives you a mechanical advantage.
You are lifting less than 200 pounds.) Support it with some cardboard
boxes or whatever is handy. Make sure the support is under the spar. A
blanket or coat or whatever over the support is probably a good idea.
This is simple, it is quick, it is portable, it is foolproof (even by
me!). Take 10 seconds to try it before making a (complicated) jack.
[Perhaps other aircraft are much heavier than a Zodiac???]
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD Zodiac with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Bob.
OK will not try it. will re read all.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390554#390554
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
John Goodings,
Following was the original question about tyre changing:
How the hell do i change a tyre if i get a flat away from base.?
Your self lift procedure is fine for getting the tyre/tire off the ground. Do you
carry large carboard boxes around with you when you fly? How about a saw horse
or other bulky object on which you can support the wing you lift way out away
from the wheel?
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390597#390597
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Robert:
THANK YOU for explaining the system.
AND it is a CDI System... That is way better than a MAG.
Thanks Robert,
Barry
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Robert Borger wrote:
> Barry,
>
> You are absolutely correct for a magneto based system. Rotax does not us
e
> magnetos. Rotax uses a CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) system, a typ
e
> of electronic ignition that does not require a separate power source. Li
ke
> a mag, the ignition module is grounded to prevent it from firing. Your
> explanation is, again, correct for the Rotax if you substitute "ignition
> module" for "MAG."
>
> Where it falls apart is when you went to "Impulse Coupler." Because it's
> not a mag, there are no impulse couplers. The Rotax CDI system is
> triggered by a pair of tabs on the flywheel. Below ~800 RPM the system
> triggers on the trailing edge of the tab (4=BABTDC or 3=BAATDC depending
on the
> age of the system). Once the engine starts, >800 RPM, the system trigger
s
> on the leading edge of the tab.
>
> Most Rotax folks use the term "MAG" for simplicity sake, because that's
> what most folks are familiar with.
>
> Kind of like the "Choke" which isn't really a choke, it's a separate
> little carb which is activated to provide a richer mixture on startup.
> Same function as the choke on a "normal" engine, just a different physic
al
> implementation.
>
> Alan,
>
> The only sure way to determine which module is grounded when your key is
> in any specific position is by making a continuity check from the back of
> the key to the grounding lead on each ignition module. Or, I guess you
> could put the key in a position and see which of your grounding leads has
> continuity to ground, that is, which is grounded. Your older system uses
4
> modules, my system is just enough newer (2002) to use only two modules,
> labeled A & B. So, I guess I should really have my two grounding switche
s
> labeled A & B rather than L & R. And on the 914. one module fires the
> upper and the other module the lower plugs. On the 912 & 912S, a module
> fires the upper on one side and lower on the other.
>
> The Rotax 9xx engines aren't your daddy's Lycoming/Continental. Twin
> carbs, CDI, gearbox and most happy when turning over 5000 RPM while burni
ng
> 4 - 5 gph.
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger(at)mac.com
>
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:34 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Alan:
>
> It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
> OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
> L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
> R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
> BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
> START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the
> Starter Motor.
>
> The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
> The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the outpu
t
> of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
>
> NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask
> you and the gaggle a couple of questions:
> Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
> Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
> I'll explain my question later.
>
> Barry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clive Richards" <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
Alan
I suspect you will find your igintion switch is marked as
my discription so BAT terminal is positive from a fuse or circuit breaker &
S goes to starter solenoid.
The Push button you show will have a common terminal with one of the other
terminals will be open to this & the other closed.
If your ignition switch is as I described you can as I previously said link
the outer ground terminal GRD to R terminal you will then start on the
module connected to the L terminal.
(It is the inner GRD terminal which is the one actualy connected to
ground)
As others have stated to check make sure engine cannot start or turn on
starter remove plug on lead from the switch at an ignition module check with
a multimeter on continuity (Ohms) range that the wire from the switch is
connected to ground (engine block) in off position then check in left right
both & start positions a modual is live when not connected to ground you
can mark left or right as appropriate check which coil pack this moudule is
pluged into to see which plugs it fires. Refit plug after testing.
Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:17 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start
>
>
> Hi Bob.
> OK will not try it. will re read all.
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390554#390554
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Viorel Nichols <viorel.nichols(at)yahoo.com> |
Away on holiday from the 22 December 2012 till 29 January 2013
Wishing you a happy festive season .
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
from
Viorel ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)fmwildblue.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES question |
Hi,
I=99m using NGK B8ES spark plugs on my Rotax 582. Does anyone
have an equivalent spark plug number for one that does not have the
screw-on tip?
Thanks guys.
Joe Connell
Kitfox II / 582
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES question |
>
>Im using NGK B8ES spark plugs on my Rotax 582. Does anyone have an equivalent
spark plug number for one that does not have the screw-on tip?
yes, NGK does make a "solid top" version of this plug. It's normally not available
at your local auto parts store. Often NAPA stores can order it for you. It's
NGK part number 3683
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/StocktoPart11x17.pdf
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)fmwildblue.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/02/13 |
Thanks Bob.
It appears they are also available at ATV and road bike shops.
Thanks again,
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:00 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/02/13
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
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---
Total Messages Posted Wed 01/02/13: 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:48 AM - Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES question (Joe & Jan
Connell)
2. 08:00 AM - Re: Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES question (Bob
Comperini)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)fmwildblue.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES question
Hi,
I=99m using NGK B8ES spark plugs on my Rotax 582. Does anyone
have an equivalent spark plug number for one that does not have the
screw-on tip?
Thanks guys.
Joe Connell
Kitfox II / 582
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: Bob Comperini <bob@fly-ul.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax Spark Plugs - 582 - NGK B8ES
question
>
>Im using NGK B8ES spark plugs on my Rotax 582. Does anyone have an
>equivalent
spark plug number for one that does not have the screw-on tip?
yes, NGK does make a "solid top" version of this plug. It's normally not
available
at your local auto parts store. Often NAPA stores can order it for you. It's
NGK part number 3683
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/StocktoPart11x17.pdf
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Max Cointe" <mcointe(at)free.fr> |
| Subject: | Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus |
Hi there all, happy new year and good flights!
I maintain two ships (an Europa XS and of a MCR 4S) both equipped with a
Rotax 912 ULS, both inherited with each their specific oil : Yacco for the
Europa and Aero Shell for the MCR. Both oils listed by Rotax but I wish I
could have only one supplier and only one shelf. Any advice concerning the
change from oil to another one. What could be the best process?
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr
MCR 4S #27-2002 / 1550 heures
F-PLDJ 912ULSFR / MT-Prop MTV7A
and
F-PMLH Europa_TriGear
Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus |
Max,
I don't know the Yacco, but the Shell is supposed to be great. I'll be swit
ching from Mobil to the Shell at annual time in Feb.
Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS, Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 5, 2013, at 8:07, Max Cointe wrote:
Hi there all, happy new year and good flights!
I maintain two ships (an Europa XS and of a MCR 4S) both equipped with a Rot
ax 912 ULS, both inherited with each their specific oil : Yacco for the Euro
pa and Aero Shell for the MCR. Both oils listed by Rotax but I wish I could
have only one supplier and only one shelf Any advice concerning th
e change from oil to another one. What could be the best process?
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr
MCR 4S #27-2002 / 1550 heures
F-PLDJ 912ULSFR / MT-Prop MTV7A
and
F-PMLH Europa_TriGear
Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 will absolutely be a better overall choice. It was designed
in the UK just for the Rotax and has a specific additive package with the
912 in mind. The other oil is just a substitute because not all oils are available
every where in the world so Rotax gave owners some options, but it not a
very conclusive list as they can't test all oils.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391666#391666
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Max,
To add to what Roger said, the transition from one oil to another approved oil
does not require any special process. When next oil change time comes, drain as
usual, changing filter of course, and add the new oil. The residual oil left
in cooler etc and new oil will mix and your engine will not notice the difference
or that there is a small mix of old with new.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391701#391701
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | spark plug caps for 912UL |
I am in the process of changing the spark plug wires on my older 912 UL
(mid 90's). I am also doing a resistance check on the caps and have found at
least one of them out of the Rotax lower limits (4400 ohms) . All of them
so far have run about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should be.
Is there someplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps without paying the
almost $50 a piece that Rotax charges ? I can get VDO5EMH caps on line for
about $7 each but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs the threaded that
Rotax calls for.
I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either locally or "on line"
Thanks,
Dick
Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
Dick, Try Google - In UK lots come up at prices under 10.
Regards, David Joyce
Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:
> I am in the process of changing the spark plug wires on
>my older 912 UL
> (mid 90's). I am also doing a resistance check on the
>caps and have found at
> least one of them out of the Rotax lower limits (4400
>ohms) . All of them
> so far have run about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should
>be.
> Is there someplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps
>without paying the
> almost $50 a piece that Rotax charges ? I can get
> VDO5EMH caps on line for
> about $7 each but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs
>the threaded that
> Rotax calls for.
> I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either
>locally or "on line"
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dick
> Maddux
>
> 912UL
>
>
> Milton,Fl
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
| From: | "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> |
Hi Dick.
Just out of interest what problem are you getting with your plugs,
is it miss firing ??
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392334#392334
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Dick,
Did some searching and found a french company, LorAvia, which sells them
for 11.00 or about $14.68 each.
http://loravia.com/shop/en/spark-plug-connector-vdo5fmh-nc?keyword=VDO5F
MH&description=true&model=1
If it comes up in French, click on the Brit flag in the upper right and
search on the part number.
I haven't found any US dealers other than the Rotax dealers who want
$50+/- each for them.
Hopefully, someone else can come up with a U.S. source at a reasonable
price.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Jan 15, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:
I am in the process of changing the spark plug wires on my older 912 UL
(mid 90's). I am also doing a resistance check on the caps and have
found at least one of them out of the Rotax lower limits (4400 ohms) .
All of them so far have run about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should be.
Is there someplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps without paying the
almost $50 a piece that Rotax charges ? I can get VDO5EMH caps on line
for about $7 each but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs the
threaded that Rotax calls for.
I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either locally or "on line"
Thanks,
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arthur Glaser <artglaser(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
Is it possible that there is a substitute from the world of motorcycles?=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Robert Borger <rlborge
r(at)mac.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, January 15, 2
013 10:22:02 AM=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for 912UL
=0A=0ADick, =0A=0ADid some searching and found a french company, LorAvia, w
hich sells them for =0A11.00=C2-=82=AC=C2-or about $14.68 each.=0A
=0Ahttp://loravia.com/shop/en/spark-plug-connector-vdo5fmh-nc?keyword=VDO
5FMH&description=true&model=1=C2-=0A=0A=0AIf it comes up in French, c
lick on the Brit flag in the upper right and search =0Aon the part number.
=0A=0AI haven't found any US dealers other than the Rotax dealers who want
$50+/- each =0Afor them.=0A=0AHopefully, someone else can come up with a U.
S. source at a reasonable price.=0A=0A=0ABlue skies & tailwinds,=0ABob Borg
er=0AEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster=C2-C/S Prop.=0ALittle Toot Sport
Biplane, Lycoming=C2-Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP=0A3705 Lynchburg Dr.=0ACor
inth, TX =C2-76208-5331=0ACel: 817-992-1117=0Arlborger(at)mac.com=0A=0AOn Ja
n 15, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:=0A=0AI am in the process of
changing the spark plug wires on my older 912 UL (mid =0A90's). I am also d
oing a resistance check on the caps and have found at least =0Aone of them
out of the Rotax lower limits (4400 ohms)=C2-. All of them so far have
=0Arun about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should be. =0A=0A=C2-Is there som
eplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps without paying the almost =0A$50 a p
iece that Rotax charges ? I can get=C2- VDO5EMH caps on line for about $7
=0Aeach but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs the threaded that Rotax
calls =0Afor.=0A=C2-I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either l
ocally or "on line"=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Thanks,=0A
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Dick Maddux=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2- 912UL=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Milton,Fl=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
NGK VD05FMH caps seem to be available for a mere $6.30
each from www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid 087 Regards
David Joyce
Arthur Glaser wrote:
> Is it possible that there is a substitute from the world
>of motorcycles?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, January 15, 2013 10:22:02 AM
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for
>912UL
>
> Dick,
>
> Did some searching and found a french company, LorAvia,
>which sells them for
> 11.00or about $14.68 each.
>
> http://loravia.com/shop/en/spark-plug-connector-vdo5fmh-nc?keyword=VDO5FMH&description=true&model=1
>
>
> If it comes up in French, click on the Brit flag in the
>upper right and search
> on the part number.
>
> I haven't found any US dealers other than the Rotax
>dealers who want $50+/- each
> for them.
>
> Hopefully, someone else can come up with a U.S. source
>at a reasonable price.
>
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, AirmasterC/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, LycomingThunderbolt AEIO-320
>EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger(at)mac.com
>
> On Jan 15, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I am in the process of changing the spark plug wires on
>my older 912 UL (mid
> 90's). I am also doing a resistance check on the caps
>and have found at least
> one of them out of the Rotax lower limits (4400 ohms).
>All of them so far have
> run about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should be.
>
> Is there someplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps
>without paying the almost
> $50 a piece that Rotax charges ? I can get VDO5EMH caps
>on line for about $7
> each but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs the
>threaded that Rotax calls
> for.
> I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either
>locally or "on line"
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dick Maddux
>
>912UL
> Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
It is not clear to me from the information given on these caps that they are
specifically for fitting the threaded end of the spark plug after the tip is
removed (as required by Rotax), or if they are for fitting over the cap that
comes on the plug. Can you answer this?
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
-----Original Message-----
From: David Joyce
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for 912UL
NGK VD05FMH caps seem to be available for a mere $6.30
each from www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid 087 Regards
David Joyce
Arthur Glaser wrote:
> Is it possible that there is a substitute from the world of motorcycles?
>
>
> ________________________________
>From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, January 15, 2013 10:22:02 AM
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for 912UL
>
> Dick,
> Did some searching and found a french company, LorAvia, which sells them
> for 11.00 or about $14.68 each.
>
> http://loravia.com/shop/en/spark-plug-connector-vdo5fmh-nc?keyword=VDO5FMH&description=true&model=1
>
> If it comes up in French, click on the Brit flag in the upper right and
> search on the part number.
>
> I haven't found any US dealers other than the Rotax dealers who want
> $50+/- each for them.
>
> Hopefully, someone else can come up with a U.S. source at a reasonable
> price.
>
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger(at)mac.com
>
> On Jan 15, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I am in the process of changing the spark plug wires on my older 912 UL
> (mid 90's). I am also doing a resistance check on the caps and have found
> at least one of them out of the Rotax lower limits (4400 ohms) . All of
> them so far have run about 4600 ohms vs the 5000 they should be.
> Is there someplace I can buy NGK VDO5FMH plug caps without paying the
> almost $50 a piece that Rotax charges ? I can get VDO5EMH caps on line
> for about $7 each but I believe they take solid tip plugs vs the threaded
> that Rotax calls for.
> I have not been able to locate the "F" caps either locally or "on line"
> Thanks,
> Dick
> Maddux
> 912UL
>
> Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
| From: | "ledson" <ledson(at)oneil.com> |
Hugh,
I've attached a part number buildup guide from NGK so that you can see how the
part numbers are assigned. By using the guide you can determine the specification
for each resistor cover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392369#392369
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/resistor_covers_535.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: spark plug caps for 912UL |
Hugh, couldn't say, but at that prie why not buy one &
check tht it is the same item?
DJ
"Hugh McKay" wrote:
>
>
> It is not clear to me from the information given on
>these caps that they are specifically for fitting the
>threaded end of the spark plug after the tip is removed
>(as required by Rotax), or if they are for fitting over
>the cap that comes on the plug. Can you answer this?
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
> Allegro 2000
> Rotax 912 UL
>
> -----Original Message----- From: David Joyce
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:40 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for
>912UL
>
>
>
> NGK VD05FMH caps seem to be available for a mere $6.30
> each from www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid 087 Regards
> David Joyce
>
>
> Arthur Glaser wrote:
>> Is it possible that there is a substitute from the world
>>of motorcycles?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
>> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Tue, January 15, 2013 10:22:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: spark plug caps for
>>912UL
>>
>> Dick,
>> Did some searching and found a french company, LorAvia,
>>which sells them for 11.00 or about $14.68 each.
>>
>> http://loravia.com/shop/en/spark-plug-connector-vdo5fmh-nc?keyword=VDO5FMH&description=true&model=1
>>
>> If it comes up in French, click on the Brit flag in the
>>upper right and search on the part number.
>>
>> I haven't found any US dealers other than the Rotax
>>dealers who want $50+/- each for them.
>>
>> Hopefully, someone else can come up with a U.S. source
>>at a reasonable price.
>>
>>
>> Blue skies & tailwinds,
>> Bob Borger
>> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
>> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320
>>EXP
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
October 10, 2012 - January 15, 2013
RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-bc