Yak-Archive.digest.vol-bb
June 05, 2002 - June 13, 2002
air bubbling into the open tank. Now close the first tank and open the
other and do the same. You should also hear air in this tank. The vent
tube that goes thru the center of the fuselage loops all the way up to the
top in behind the front instrument panel and then back down again. It all
comes together just under and down the left side of the front seat. There's
a 4 way T connections which are the vent tubes for the 3 tanks, mains and
consumption tank, and the belly overflow.
I'd also check the vent tubes on each tank in a similar way. If the one
tank never overflows, you may have a stoppage in it's drain tube. You can
see the opening right in the lip of the tank just under the black rubber cap
gasket.
The only cure, if you want to call it that, is to keep the caps open when
the airplane is out in the hot sun. Otherwise once the siphoning starts,
it's not going to quit.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
| From: | "David Farley" <david.farley(at)aspentech.com> |
| Subject: | Venting fuel on the ground |
>
> Hi,
> I've read lots of comments on the list about uneven fuel burn but
I
> appear to have a different problem.
> My preference is to keep my fuel tanks full to avoid water from
> condensation, however when I do this the left tank vents fuel out of the
> overflow. This can be quite a lot of fuel, last week the tanks were filled
> on Friday, by Saturday afternoon it had lost >15 litres!!!
>
> I witnessed the venting for the first time on Saturday while I was
cleaning
> the aeroplane, it would stop when I loosened the tank cap, and there was a
> significant hiss when I cracked the tank cap as the pressure equalized, so
> there was definitly pressure build-up, it was a warm day! The thing that
> confuses me is why don't I loose fuel from the right tank?
>
> Is this level of fuel-loss normal? Do most people leave the tanks empty,
or
> do I have some blockage that is allowing the pressure to build up and push
> the fuel out?
>
> Dave Farley (Yak 52 N151PA)
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.5.2653.12">
> Venting fuel on the ground
>
>
>
>
Hi,
>
FACE"Arial">I've read lots of comments on the list about uneven fuel
> burn but I appear to have a different problem.
>
My preference is to keep my fuel
> tanks full to avoid water from condensation, however when I do this the
> left tank vents fuel out of the overflow. This can be quite a lot of
> fuel, last week the tanks were filled on Friday, by Saturday afternoon
> it had lost 15 litres!!!
>
>
I witnessed the venting for the first
> time on Saturday while I was cleaning the aeroplane, it would stop when
> I loosened the tank cap, and there was a significant hiss when I
> cracked the tank cap as the pressure equalized, so there was definitly
> pressure build-up, it was a warm day! The thing that confuses me is why
> don't I loose fuel from the right tank?
>
>
Is this level of fuel-loss normal? Do
> most people leave the tanks empty, or do I have some blockage that is
> allowing the pressure to build up and push the fuel out?
>
>
FACE"Arial">Dave Farley (Yak 52 N151PA)
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
At 06:31 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>
>The main purpose of priming any engine before or during cold start-up
>procedure is NOT to introduce the combustible mixture, but to reduce the
>propensity for atomised petrol/air mixture from the Carb' or Injectors
>to condense upon first contact with the cold piston/cylinder walls
>during the start sequence.
I beg to differ. The fuel is already liquid going in. It is also at the
same temperature as the engine (presuming both have been sitting together
overnight). The fuel is not more likely to condense or vaporize when it
encounters the cylinder walls whether or not the walls have fuel on them.
Liquid fuel will not burn. Only fuel vapor will burn. The vapor pressure
of the fuel is dependent upon temperature. At lower temperatures in order
to get sufficient fuel vapor to form a stochastic mixture (one that will
burn) you need to introduce a greater quantity of liquid fuel in order to
get sufficient fuel vapor to combust. That is the purpose of the
primer. It introduces more fuel so that you get enough vapor.
>By 'wetting' the cold piston/cylinder walls with raw non-atomised fuel
>you reduce the tendency of the incoming atomised fuel/air mixture to
>condense on the cold surfaces at first contact.
Again, the fuel and cylinder walls are at the same temperature. Wetting
the walls with fuel will not change how much condenses or is
vaporized. The ratio of liquid to fuel vapor is a function of vapor
pressure and that is a function of temperature.
>Supercharged engines
>have an added problem in that the cold surfaces of the supercharger
>impeller (large surface area) have the same effect on the mixture as do
>the long inlet tracts. Hence the need for judicious priming even after
>initial fire-up and the variation in amount of prime needed at differing
>ambient temperatures. Cold air cold metal. that's why Yak's
>traditionally need more 'squirt than CJ's.
Huh? The construction of the engines is almost identical. Both engines
have a centrifugal compressor stage (supercharger) feeding the cylinder
intakes. Boost is even similar between the Housai and M14P engines. The
big difference is that the M14P has a maximum RPM of 2900 RPM vs. 2350 RPM
for the Housai with the concomitant difference in gear reduction ratio for
the propeller drive. Priming these two engines is going to be very similar.
>Need proof ? Just watch a bunch of Drag Racers squirt copious quantities
>of pump gas into the cavernous blowers/engines of their fiery beasts.
>The methanol/nitro mixtures their engines run on chill the blowers and
>cylinders/pistons upon contact precluding any unassisted fire up.
Again, I beg to differ. We are talking totally different fuel
characteristics between nitromethane and gasoline. I was looking for
references and didn't find any quickly so I will just have to go on what I
remember. If I am incorrect in any area, I hope that someone will correct me.
One thing that can happen is that the induction air can be sufficiently
cold that the residual water produced by combustion (the primary byproducts
of combustion are H2O and CO2) can be sufficiently cooled that it not only
condenses, it turns to frost. This frost can form on the spark plug and
short it out so that you can no longer get the engine to start. This is a
known standard problem with gasoline-fueled aircraft engines when the
temperature is very cold. They fire and then the pilot doesn't keep it
running. The water vapor from the first couple of cylinders firing turns
to frost and shorts out the spark plugs. After that it won't fire at all
regardless of the correctness of the fuel-air mixture.
I suspect that, due to the greater reduction in induction temperature due
to the higher vapor pressure of the nitro fuel, the induction air gets cold
enough to cause frost to form from the residual H2O even at an ambient
temperature that would otherwise preclude frost formation. This is much
less of a problem with gasoline at normal ambient temperatures so getting
the dragster engines to start on gasoline will allow them to warm without
frost until it is no longer a problem with the nitro fuel.
>Cylinder wall chill and piston crown/cylinder wall area are a big
>consideration to manufacturers when designing low emission engines.
>Longer stroke engines are easier to get 'clean' than shorter stroke ones
>on the basis of the piston crown/cylinder wall surface area to
>displacement ratio.
This is true. The greater surface area to volume ratio typical of
short-stroke engines has the potential to cool the combustion gasses more
quickly thus changing the nature of the combustion and favoring lower
temperature reactions near the cylinder walls, heads, and piston
crowns. Stratified charge engines keep the combustion in a controlled
area, usually using some kind of induction vortex, away from the cylinder
walls thus promoting the higher temperature, clean burning reactions.
>Now you know.
It is certainly an interesting discussion.
>Priming M14P's
>I've heard/read every different method/combination of priming for a
>sure start. I've owned several, flown a few more and I've still got two.
> I assert the factory knows best !
I happen to agree with you on this.
>The factory says:- After pull through etc. to cold start:
>9 squirts simultaneously pulling 9 blades (impossible without help, or
>of 9 ascents of the wing) ONLY THIS METHOD GIVES TOTAL SAFE CYLINDER
>WETTING. See above.
Actually, if you think about it, the liquid fuel drains downward and never
makes it into the upper cylinders to do any sort of wetting.
Oh, and another thing, it doesn't matter whether it is fuel, steel, or
aluminum, if it is cold enough, it will cause the fuel to condense,
therefore "wetting" the walls with fuel will have no effect on whether the
fuel vapor condenses or not.
>Quarter throttle or as required for approx 42 % idle. Primer in hand
>ready for a top up prime on initial fire-up if required. Press the start
>button and after two blades have passed your eyes flick both mag's
>'live' being careful to keep the starter button pushed until the engine
>comes completely alive. It never fails for me.
That definitely works. It works with the Housai too.
You can also start them by just priming the engine without pulling it
through if you are willing to let the engine rotate through several more
blades until the mixture reaches proportions that will burn. That is what
I do when I don't feel the need for all that exercise. OTOH, if air
pressure is low and I want the engine to fire on the first blade, I prime
the engine as I have someone pull it through. This ensures that the
mixture already in the cylinder will combust as soon as spark is introduced.
I have even had engines fire as soon as the starter button is pressed and
before any air has been introduced into the cylinder to cause the engine to
turn. This is a function of the proper mixture being present in the
cylinder and has nothing to do with wetting the cylinder walls.
>However experience has tought me that it's the primer itself that varies
>between planes rather than the engines. It's important to 'stroke' the
>primer a couple of times (or until slight change of resistance/sound is
>noticed) in order to 'prime the primer'. It's this that varies from
>plane to plane. Some are instantly primed and others take up to 5
>strokes to prime themselves. I only start the engine priming of 9
>squirts once the primer is primed. As long as you pull through one blade
> after each priming 'stroke' it's impossible to over prime.
I agree with this 100%.
>IMPORTANT:
>Its easy to rush the primer by pushing too fast or too hard. All that
>happens if you do is that the priming fuel is forced past the seals in
>the primer(creating premature wear) and it doesn't reach the cylinders.
>Take 2<3 seconds for each stroke and you get a complete charge.
It seems to me that pressing fast/hard on the primer will get the fuel to
spray/atomize better in the supercharger housing than pressing slowly. If
you think about it, consider the force you *can* apply to the primer handle
and the cross section area of the primer piston itself. You will find the
pressures are not that high when compared with the kinds of pressures an
O-ring is required to contain in hydraulic and pneumatic actuators.
>Washing oil off the cylinder walls is not worth talking about unless
>your engine is so grossly over rich when running as to render it
>unflyable. The start up procedure cannot last long enough for the heat
>build up required before damage occurred.
I agree with this 100%.
>All a bit long winded but definitive.
Certainly interesting to think about.
>Fly safe
Thank you. I hope you fly safely too.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
At 08:58 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>Perhaps the "blade counting" is left over from operating P&W's or the
>like. Those engines are different than the M14P's and aside from being
>less prone to hydraulic lock, allow the engine to be turned by the
>electrical starter without any "fire" in the cylinders.
Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the starter
to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter could
not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic lock
occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
starting torque exceeded a certain value.
>This is done to
>make absolutely sure the engine is cleared before firing. This cannot
>be avoided on the M14P with standard installation.
Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition regardless
of the position of the mag switch.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
At 04:08 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>
>From: "Mark Jefferies , YAK UK Ltd" <yakuk(at)compuserve.com>
>Subject: Yak-List: C of G
>
>
>
>Why does not someone draw up a C of G calculator that the pilot may just
>insert his own a/c data (weight & arm) post it on a web site. I will
>even host a CJ6 calculator. Take a look at www.yakuk.co.uk/downloads.htm
>for calculator for the YAK 52, L-29. I have an advanced copy for YAK 50
>but its just in the checking stages, this one will do mac & distance
>calks.
>
>When the CJ6 one is done all this bickering can stop.
>
>Brian, you have a copy of my YAK 50 draft calculator, use this as a
>template?
Wilco. Actually, that Excel template is so complex and cool I am pretty
sure it uses features of Excel I have never even heard of. Perhaps I can
just change the values and make it work.
Still, I do know how to make a not-quite-so-pretty sheet that will work. I
suspect that others have already done so.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
At 09:40 AM 6/5/2002, Jim Ivey wrote:
>
>kp:
>
>So as I understand it effectively what you are saying is that the
>magneto timing would cause the problem with kickback, and this is not an
>issue with the shower of sparks. And all of this has nothing to do with
>extra clearing for hydraulic lock reasons.
That actually makes some sense. OTOH, without an impulse coupling to speed
up the magneto's rotor, it probably isn't turning fast enough to generate
sufficient voltage to fire a plug, hence the need for the vibrator and
retard breaker (shower-of-sparks system).
>If I am understanding that correctly, then thank you. That is
>enlightening. There could be no harm in me changing my ways as of today
>(the conservative thing to do).
I suppose that it could fire when the regular points open and the engine
turn backwards but it certainly doesn't happen very often.
>I have been using the Normal Operating Checklist as published at
>CJ6.org. This checklist has the mags live on start. Perhaps if others
>on the list come to the same consensus on the kickback issue this
>checklist as posted could be updated?
I suppose it could. I have the original and can make changes. So far, at
least for the Housai engine, the current procedure works just fine.
>By the way, Jeff Linebaugh did a
>wonderful job on this document (and others) as posted on this web site
>as hosted by Brian Lloyd. Since the day I starting using this checklist
>the aircraft has started practically flawlessly every time.
This is the way Fred taught me to start the engine and it does work very well.
>However, I
>think it is important to scrutinize any source of information whether on
>the web or in writing from the various resellers out there.
Agreed. And sometimes you can come up with an even better way if you think
about things long enough.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Checking Hydraulic Lock & Prime Using Air |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
> Perhaps the "blade counting" is left over from operating P&W's or the
> like. Those engines are different than the M14P's and aside from being
> less prone to hydraulic lock, allow the engine to be turned by the
> electrical starter without any "fire" in the cylinders.
> Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the starter
> to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter could
> not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic lock
> occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
> starting torque exceeded a certain value.
> This is done to
> make absolutely sure the engine is cleared before firing. This cannot
> be avoided on the M14P with standard installation.
> Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
> starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition regardless
> of the position of the mag switch.
Hi Brian and all,
Last weekend I mounted an M-14PF on the front of the Murphy Moose Amphib I
am building. I read the Yak-list daily to learn as much as I can about this
impressive engine. After reading your comments above I thought it an
appropriate time to ask a question I have pondered for some time.
Because of the nature of seaplane operations we (I have a partner Randy) are
planing to install a full compliment of Jim Kimball's oil management
goodies. Hopefully this will help "wrangle the oil"
In that it is still necessary to check for lock and to prime, my question.
Would it be a safe procedure to use air to turn the prop to check for
hydraulic lock and to prime if the air source was activated by a separate
switch which would introduce air but NO SPARK?
If the answer is that the normal aprox. 750 PSI could cause damage if
hydraulic lock exists then would there be a lower pressure which would turn
the blades and be safe?
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
Moose #130 "The Beast" M-14PF 400HP Aerocet 3500 amphibs Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
> At 08:58 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
> >Perhaps the "blade counting" is left over from operating P&W's or the
> >like. Those engines are different than the M14P's and aside from being
> >less prone to hydraulic lock, allow the engine to be turned by the
> >electrical starter without any "fire" in the cylinders.
>
> Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the starter
> to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter could
> not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic lock
> occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
> starting torque exceeded a certain value.
P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of an
internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational oil flow
through the oil pump and into the engine. The same comparison may not be
true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a similar check
valve. I don't know.
> >This is done to
> >make absolutely sure the engine is cleared before firing. This cannot
> >be avoided on the M14P with standard installation.
>
> Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
> starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition
regardless
> of the position of the mag switch.
Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start system
rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch off.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Checking Hydraulic Lock & Prime Using Air |
At 07:13 PM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>Would it be a safe procedure to use air to turn the prop to check for
>hydraulic lock and to prime if the air source was activated by a separate
>switch which would introduce air but NO SPARK?
Frankly, I don't know. It would depend on the pressure in the cylinder and
the piston area in order to determine the actual force applied to the con
rod. Oh yeah, and the angle of the crank because of the mechanical
advantage as the crank comes over top dead center.
>If the answer is that the normal aprox. 750 PSI could cause damage if
>hydraulic lock exists then would there be a lower pressure which would turn
>the blades and be safe?
Actually, I can see a situation where there is just enough oil in the
cylinder to cause that cylinder to hydraulic lock just a few degrees before
TDC. In that case the mechanical advantage of the crank as it comes over
TDC is so high that the pressure on the piston and rod would be
astronomical and you could do damage with very low pressures.
Best bet: pull it through by hand so your calibrated fingers can feel if
something is amiss and you can stop pulling.
Now if someone could create a compression release so that you could open up
the cylinder remotely for the first several blades our problems would be
solved.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Priming Using Air |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
> Best bet: pull it through by hand so your calibrated fingers can feel if
> something is amiss and you can stop pulling.
Thanks Brian, your comments on forces made good sense.
So it's blade turning (with calibrated fingers) from the float to check for
hydraulic lock. Once confirmed there is no lock it would seem turning the
blades with air and no spark from the pilot's seat for the priming phase
would be safe.
Any concerns?
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
Moose #130 "The Beast" M-14PF 400HP Aerocet 3500 amphibs Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Thayer" <doug.thayer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 05/19/02 |
Doug,
How about a compressor and the shear drive that goes under the compressor?
Doug Thayer
YAK-52
(817) 488-1724
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
> > Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the starter
> > to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter could
> > not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic lock
> > occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
> > starting torque exceeded a certain value.
>
>P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
>likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of an
>internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational oil flow
>through the oil pump and into the engine.
The M14P has such a valve. I believe that the Housai engine does
too. There is a check valve assembly that is part of the oil pump if you
look at the exploded diagram and parts list for the Housai oil pump.
>The same comparison may not be
>true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a similar check
>valve. I don't know.
It does.
> > Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
> > starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition regardless
> > of the position of the mag switch.
>
>Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start system
>rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
>through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch off.
From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the "vibrator" in
the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator that
repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of the
magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker instead of the main
breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto primary
instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the "vibrator"
or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic field in
the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about 300V
from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact that
the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the mags
are turned off.
BTW, this is one of the ways I have discovered that you can use to make
yourself feel stupid in front of many people. You then get the pleasure of
having to unstrap, get up, and go turn the mag switch back on in the back
seat. You get extra points for this if you are starting for the formation
start at Oshkosh for the warbird formation fly-over.
Now the big difference I see between the Housai system and the "shower of
sparks" system from Bendix, Unison (Slick), and the like is that the
domestic systems either have a relay or an extra pole on the
magneto/starter switch that grounds the p-lead to the main breaker points
so that the mag cannot fire when the main points open at 25 degrees
BTDC. This may be why the Russians want the mag switch off when starting
until the engine fires on the retard breaker. This would tend to support
the supposition that the engine could kick back if the mags are left on
when you start to crank.
Usual disclaimers: Your mileage may vary; I am not an A&P but I play one on
a mailing list; Post no bills.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Priming Using Air |
At 08:37 PM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>
> > Best bet: pull it through by hand so your calibrated fingers can feel if
> > something is amiss and you can stop pulling.
>
>Thanks Brian, your comments on forces made good sense.
>So it's blade turning (with calibrated fingers) from the float to check for
>hydraulic lock. Once confirmed there is no lock it would seem turning the
>blades with air and no spark from the pilot's seat for the priming phase
>would be safe.
That would seem reasonable. Be sure to install a drain petcock for the
intake riser drains to scavenge any oil from the intake risers that will
get sucked in when the engine finally does fire.
>Any concerns?
Just that one.
>Regards,
>Don Boardman
>& Partner
>Randy Bowers
>Moose #130 "The Beast" M-14PF 400HP Aerocet 3500 amphibs Rome, NY
>
>
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
>
> > > Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the
starter
> > > to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter
could
> > > not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic
lock
> > > occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
> > > starting torque exceeded a certain value.
> >
> >P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
> >likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of an
> >internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational oil
flow
> >through the oil pump and into the engine.
>
> The M14P has such a valve. I believe that the Housai engine does
> too. There is a check valve assembly that is part of the oil pump if you
> look at the exploded diagram and parts list for the Housai oil pump.
I will take a look. I have not seen any access to a check valve when working
on the engine but that does not mean it isn't there. The P&W valve is
readily accessible for cleaning and inspection and, on rare occasions, for
lapping in to correct leakage - the Housai installation could be quite
different.
> >The same comparison may not be
> >true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a similar
check
> >valve. I don't know.
>
> It does.
>
> > > Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
> > > starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition
regardless
> > > of the position of the mag switch.
> >
> >Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start system
> >rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
> >through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch
off.
>
> From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the "vibrator"
in
> the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator
that
> repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of the
> magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker instead of the main
> breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto primary
> instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the
"vibrator"
> or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic field in
> the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about 300V
> from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
>
> Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
> that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
> terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact that
> the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the mags
> are turned off.
Both systems serve the same purpose but get there differently; Both use a
set of vibrator points. The booster coil produces a high tension spark which
is directed to a retard terminal on one mag to fire at TDC. With the
exception of the high tension delivery path it is totally independant of the
magneto. Typical installation; Early T6, Harvard 2 Beaver and CJ6.
The induction vibrator commonly called '' shower of sparks'' is a low
tension system that utilizes the primary and secondary magneto circuit to
produce a starting spark hotter than the mag. is capable of at low speed.
With this system there is no retard so it is switch off until good cranking
speed is reached. Typically Harvard 4, T6G, probably T28.
The above are old radial engine era systems. There are more modern, both
high and low tension systems used on current aircraft but the CJ is pure
1940/1950 technology.
BTW, this is one of the ways I have discovered that you can use to make
> yourself feel stupid in front of many people. You then get the pleasure
of
> having to unstrap, get up, and go turn the mag switch back on in the back
> seat. You get extra points for this if you are starting for the formation
> start at Oshkosh for the warbird formation fly-over.
Now the big difference I see between the Housai system and the "shower of
> sparks" system from Bendix, Unison (Slick), and the like is that the
> domestic systems either have a relay or an extra pole on the
> magneto/starter switch that grounds the p-lead to the main breaker points
> so that the mag cannot fire when the main points open at 25 degrees
> BTDC. This may be why the Russians want the mag switch off when starting
> until the engine fires on the retard breaker. This would tend to support
> the supposition that the engine could kick back if the mags are left on
> when you start to crank.
>
> Usual disclaimers: Your mileage may vary; I am not an A&P but I play one
on
> a mailing list; Post no bills.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Jefferies , YAK UK Ltd" <yakuk(at)compuserve.com> |
The M14p does have a check valve in the oil pump, it opens at about 2-3
PSI. This valve does fail to seat sometimes so lets oil run through the
engine and out of the exhaust, or into the inlet tubes. Its a tricky
little valve to re seat but it can be done with care. A simple bit of
carbon on the seat will let the oil through, take it out and lap it in.
good luck.
M G Jefferies for
YAK UK Ltd www.yakuk.co.uk
Lt Gransden Airfield
Sandy, Beds
SG19 3BP England
Tel ## 44 (0)1767 651156 (fax 651157)
Mob ## 44 (0)7785 538317
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Yak list <yaklist(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Brian,
I wrote the spreadsheet. If you have any problem just contact me.
Gus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Weight and Balance
>
> At 04:08 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >From: "Mark Jefferies , YAK UK Ltd" <yakuk(at)compuserve.com>
> >Subject: Yak-List: C of G
> >
> >
> >
> >Why does not someone draw up a C of G calculator that the pilot may just
> >insert his own a/c data (weight & arm) post it on a web site. I will
> >even host a CJ6 calculator. Take a look at www.yakuk.co.uk/downloads.htm
> >for calculator for the YAK 52, L-29. I have an advanced copy for YAK 50
> >but its just in the checking stages, this one will do mac & distance
> >calks.
> >
> >When the CJ6 one is done all this bickering can stop.
> >
> >Brian, you have a copy of my YAK 50 draft calculator, use this as a
> >template?
>
> Wilco. Actually, that Excel template is so complex and cool I am pretty
> sure it uses features of Excel I have never even heard of. Perhaps I can
> just change the values and make it work.
>
> Still, I do know how to make a not-quite-so-pretty sheet that will work.
I
> suspect that others have already done so.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Jefferies , YAK UK Ltd" <yakuk(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | air turning prop |
To answer the following question from Don, I would not suggest this as
being prudent. I strongly suggest that you find a way of hand propping.
Although not 100% sure but I believe that an engine in UK was damaged by
hand forcing a hydro lock to clear.
Still if you do damage we will OH the engine for you!!
400hp with 3 blades prop does make for a sharp "get up and go a/c"
regards, mark
Would it be a safe procedure to use air to turn the prop to check for
hydraulic lock and to prime if the air source was activated by a
separate
switch which would introduce air but NO SPARK?
If the answer is that the normal aprox. 750 PSI could cause damage if
hydraulic lock exists then would there be a lower pressure which would
turn
the blades and be safe?
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
Moose #130 "The Beast" M-14PF 400HP Aerocet 3500 amphibs Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
To everyone who loves what we do.
We had better watch these guys very closely.
FORM AVWEB on 6/5/02
It's headed for a little airport you know and love. It's headed for your
personal airplane. It's headed for your freedom to take off and fly. The
Transportation Security Administration (TSA), (known to some in the industry
as Tedious, Silly & Asinine), is on the brink of establishing an office of
general aviation security to see what can be done about all those pilots and
pax who board private planes and fly willy-nilly around the country with
nail clippers and tweezers. John Magaw, Department of Transportation
Undersecretary for Transportation Security and head of the TSA, told the
American Association of Airport Executives at their annual meeting in
Dallas, Texas, on May 20 that the agency is forming the new office
specifically to address security concerns posed by the general aviation
community. "General aviation is a security concern for us," he said. "The
TSA has put together a team to see how to increase security, but not put
companies out of business. We need to see what standards can be developed,
after conferring with and through the input of the general aviation
industry." He said the new office could be created within weeks. The concern
for the welfare of small aviation businesses is touching, but rings rather
hollow. So far the Bush administration has failed to support legislation
that would provide economic relief for small businesses that have already
been financially hurt or destroyed by the fallout from the 9/11 terrorist
attacks.
Go to http://avweb.com/n/?23b for more info.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Starting circuit (was: Cylinder priming) |
At 11:37 PM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
> > From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the "vibrator" in
> > the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator that
> > repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of the
> > magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker instead of the main
> > breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto primary
> > instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the "vibrator"
> > or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic field in
> > the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about 300V
> > from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
> >
> > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
> > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
> > terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact that
> > the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the mags
> > are turned off.
>
>Both systems serve the same purpose but get there differently; Both use a
>set of vibrator points. The booster coil produces a high tension spark which
>is directed to a retard terminal on one mag to fire at TDC. With the
>exception of the high tension delivery path it is totally independant of the
>magneto. Typical installation; Early T6, Harvard 2 Beaver and CJ6.
Then it is similar to the old model-T ignition system with both points and
a vibrator? Hmmm, from the CJ6A schematic that doesn't sound right. The
vibrator relay looks like the Bendix schematic and there is no separate
lead to retard breaker points.
>The induction vibrator commonly called '' shower of sparks'' is a low
>tension system that utilizes the primary and secondary magneto circuit to
>produce a starting spark hotter than the mag. is capable of at low speed.
>With this system there is no retard so it is switch off until good cranking
>speed is reached. Typically Harvard 4, T6G, probably T28.
The induction vibrator system used in production aircraft uses a retard
breaker set to open just after TDC to ensure that the engine doesn't kick
back during starting. When it opens the high back EMF from the vibrator
winding feeds the primary of the mag instead of being shunted to ground
through the retard breaker The schematic for the CJ6A electrical system
(Bus Schematic 1-5) shows a separate terminal from the vibrator to the
mag. The vibrator has two windings on a common core and the second winding
goes to the mag. This could be a HT secondary but then where are the
primary points to turn on the interruptor/vibrator at TDC? By the
schematic it runs continuously when the starter button is pressed much like
the Bendix/Slick system. If you are correct then they are doing the timing
in the secondary circuit, something very difficult to implement. There
would be too much arcing in the distributor in that case and the timing
would vary all over the place. That sounds ugly and failure-prone to me.
So the schematic leads me to believe that this is a primary rather than a
secondary circuit. Also, given the propensity of the Chinese to shield
everything in heavy copper braid, it is tough to tell what is under the
braid without taking everything apart. It could be primary or secondary
wiring.
I will take your word for it but the lack of a primary breaker to control
timing still bothers me.
Oh, and when I did a search on Google to try to find a schematic for the
Bendix retard breaker "shower of sparks" system, one of the links was from
one of Mike's and my early discussions on this list. You just never know
who or what is listening. :
)
>The above are old radial engine era systems. There are more modern, both
>high and low tension systems used on current aircraft but the CJ is pure
>1940/1950 technology.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :
)
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kpilling" <kjpilling(at)btclick.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "kpilling" <kjpilling(at)btclick.com>
Subject: Re:
> Quite simply you don't but its doubtful a single instance would lead to
> problems. I doubt the Russians ever worried about it but we 'owner
drivers'
> want to protect our assets.
>
> It's not the fact that it runs backwards, in fact it's not 'running' in
the
> true sense of the word at all ! It's the fact that each explosion within a
> cylinder or cylinders is dependent upon the compressed gasses reaching an
> explosive compression level rather than receiving an accurately timed
spark
> just before TDC. The resulting out of sequence ignitions therefore have
the
> potential to occur simultaneously in opposing cylinders resulting in huge
> and stressful opposing forces. A half stroke explosion results in gross
> reversing shock loads, and most damaging of all, an explosion at Bottom
Dead
> Centre. At BDC the piston has nowhere to go and the entire shock is passed
> to both the small and big end bushes. Those engines fitted with roller
> bearing big ends that suffer this misfortune end up with roller
indentations
> in the wear ring, and a very short life expectancy! Fortunately our
engines
> have bushes and are less effected but it's best to avoid the stress all
the
> same.
>
> To put it simply every explosion is a detonation rather than a controlled
> burn. Detonation is to be avoided , always.
>
> Fortunately it can only 'run' backwards as long as there exists enough
> residual fuel in the cylinders and manifolds to create a combustible
> mixture. It is possible to achieve an oscillating combustion or 'Two
> Stroking' but how far do we want to take this subject? It rarely happens
on
> correctly timed engines.
>
> Fly safe
> kp
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walter Fricke" <walterfricke(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 8:30 PM
>
>
> > Had this happen to me the other day. low air, even
> > after letting several blades go by, it kicked back.
> > and fired. and even seemed to run backwards for a
> > second or two. How do I know if I've damaged
> > anything?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | engines running "backward", detonation, preignition, etc. |
> > It's not the fact that it runs backwards, in fact it's not 'running' in the
> > true sense of the word at all ! It's the fact that each explosion within a
> > cylinder or cylinders is dependent upon the compressed gasses reaching an
> > explosive compression level rather than receiving an accurately timed spark
> > just before TDC.
Our engines don't have high enough compression to do this. You are
describing a diesel engine. Often people call reverse running (for want of
a better name) "dieseling" but that is not what it is. It is actually a
form of preignition, usually from hot carbon deposits but possibly from a
normally timed spark when the engine is rotating very slowly and with
nothing to resist the reverse rotation (such as low starting pressure).
> > The resulting out of sequence ignitions therefore have the
> > potential to occur simultaneously in opposing cylinders resulting in huge
> > and stressful opposing forces. A half stroke explosion results in gross
> > reversing shock loads, and most damaging of all, an explosion at Bottom
> Dead
> > Centre. At BDC the piston has nowhere to go and the entire shock is passed
> > to both the small and big end bushes.
At BDC of the intake stroke the intake valve hasn't closed all the way (see
note below) so ignition at BDC usually results in a backfire, with the
flame front going out through the not-quite-closed intake valve, possibly
igniting the fuel-air charge in the induction system. This is generally a
problem for the induction system and causes induction fires in
aircraft. If you want to continue with your previous inclusion of
automobile racing engines, in dragsters with Roots blowers (superchargers)
this can result in a rather spectacular failure of the supercharger, much
to the delight of the audience and dismay of the owner/driver.
(Note: virtually all four-stroke engines have valve durations that cause
overlap, i.e. both exhaust and intake valves being open simultaneously at
the end of the exhaust cycle and beginning of the intake cycle. The
overlap favors improved scavenging of exhaust and starts the induction flow
early in order to get more fuel/air mix into the cylinder.
In addition the cam is likely to cause the intake valve to remain open
until after the compression stroke begins. This is done to allow the
inertia of the airflow or boost from the supercharger to continue to fill
the cylinder even after the piston has started up in the compression
cycle. This crams even more fuel/air into the cylinder and allows the
cylinder to produce more power than it otherwise would. Long valve
durations favor high RPM operation so we don't find really long duration
cams in aircraft engines.
Another advantage of long duration cams is to give hot rods that really
cool stumbling/loping idle that screams to your neighbor at the stoplight,
"I am going to blow your doors off when the light changes so don't mess
with me.")
> > To put it simply every explosion is a detonation rather than a controlled
> > burn. Detonation is to be avoided , always.
That is true but the causes of detonation vary. Also people tend to
confuse preignition with detonation and vice-versa. What we have been
discussing, i.e. engines firing and turning backwards, may or may not
involve preignition and probably don't involve detonation.
> > It rarely happens on correctly timed engines.
If the engine is turning very slowly and ignition happens before TDC
(normally this IS when the ignition system fires the plug), the engine will
turn in the reverse direction because it has insufficient inertia to keep
it turning past TDC. Since it is turning very slowly the loads on the
accessories and gears are pretty low so I wouldn't expect any damage. But,
hey, what do I know, right?
Open question: are there any accessories that will be damaged by reverse
rotation? Reverse rotation can destroy a dry vacuum pump such as used in
spam cans (this is why you never rotate the prop backwards on a spam can)
but I can't think of anything on our Eastern Bloc aircraft that would be
similarly affected.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kpilling" <kjpilling(at)btclick.com> |
From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
At 06:31 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
>
>The main purpose of priming any engine before or during cold start-up
>procedure is NOT to introduce the combustible mixture, but to reduce
the
>propensity for atomised petrol/air mixture from the Carb' or Injectors
>to condense upon first contact with the cold piston/cylinder walls
>during the start sequence.
I beg to differ. The fuel is already liquid going in.
THe carburettor (or fuel injector) introduced fuel is atomised NOT
LIQUID
It is also at the
same temperature as the engine (presuming both have been sitting
together
overnight). The fuel is not more likely to condense or vaporize when it
encounters the cylinder walls whether or not the walls have fuel on
them.
Liquid fuel will not burn. Only fuel vapour will burn. The vapor
pressure
of the fuel is dependent upon temperature. At lower temperatures in
order
to get sufficient fuel vapor to form a stochastic mixture (one that will
burn) you need to introduce a greater quantity of liquid fuel in order
to
get sufficient fuel vapor to combust. That is the purpose of the
primer. It introduces more fuel so that you get enough vapor.
Thats just about what I was saying.
>By 'wetting' the cold piston/cylinder walls with raw non-atomised fuel
>you reduce the tendency of the incoming atomised fuel/air mixture to
>condense on the cold surfaces at first contact.
Again, the fuel and cylinder walls are at the same temperature. Wetting
the walls with fuel will not change how much condenses or is
vaporized. The ratio of liquid to fuel vapor
Hey ! How come an educated man like you can't spell vapour ?
is a function of vapor
pressure and that is a function of temperature.
Same as above.
>Supercharged engines
>have an added problem in that the cold surfaces of the supercharger
>impeller (large surface area) have the same effect on the mixture as do
>the long inlet tracts. Hence the need for judicious priming even after
>initial fire-up and the variation in amount of prime needed at
differing
>ambient temperatures. Cold air cold metal. that's why Yak's
>traditionally need more 'squirt than CJ's.
Huh? The construction of the engines is almost identical. Both engines
have a centrifugal compressor stage (supercharger) feeding the cylinder
intakes. Boost is even similar between the Housai and M14P engines.
The
big difference is that the M14P has a maximum RPM of 2900 RPM vs. 2350
RPM
for the Housai with the concomitant difference in gear reduction ratio
for
the propeller drive. Priming these two engines is going to be very
similar.
I STAND CORRECTED BY A HIGHER AUTHORITY!
I was incorrectly under the impression that the CJ 6 engine was not
supercharged.
Q, Why bother to supercharge for so little power?......sic.
>Need proof ? Just watch a bunch of Drag Racers squirt copious
quantities
>of pump gas into the cavernous blowers/engines of their fiery beasts.
>The methanol/nitro mixtures their engines run on chill the blowers and
>cylinders/pistons upon contact precluding any unassisted fire up.
Again, I beg to differ. We are talking totally different fuel
characteristics between nitromethane and gasoline. I was looking for
references and didn't find any quickly so I will just have to go on what
I
remember. If I am incorrect in any area, I hope that someone will
correct me.
One thing that can happen is that the induction air can be sufficiently
cold that the residual water produced by combustion (the primary
byproducts
of combustion are H2O and CO2) can be sufficiently cooled that it not
only
condenses, it turns to frost. This frost can form on the spark plug and
short it out so that you can no longer get the engine to start. This is
a
known standard problem with gasoline-fueled aircraft engines when the
temperature is very cold. They fire and then the pilot doesn't keep it
running. The water vapor from the first couple of cylinders firing
turns
to frost and shorts out the spark plugs. After that it won't fire at
all
regardless of the correctness of the fuel-air mixture.
I suspect that, due to the greater reduction in induction temperature
due
to the higher vapor pressure of the nitro fuel, the induction air gets
cold
enough to cause frost to form from the residual H2O even at an ambient
temperature that would otherwise preclude frost formation. This is much
less of a problem with gasoline at normal ambient temperatures so
getting
the dragster engines to start on gasoline will allow them to warm
without
frost until it is no longer a problem with the nitro fuel.
With the greatest of respect that is totally incorrect. However we are
not using this list correctly to discuss Drag Racing and I apologise to
other readers for mentioning it.
>Cylinder wall chill and piston crown/cylinder wall area are a big
>consideration to manufacturers when designing low emission engines.
>Longer stroke engines are easier to get 'clean' than shorter stroke
ones
>on the basis of the piston crown/cylinder wall surface area to
>displacement ratio.
This is true. The greater surface area to volume ratio typical of
short-stroke engines has the potential to cool the combustion gasses
more
quickly thus changing the nature of the combustion and favoring lower
temperature reactions near the cylinder walls, heads, and piston
crowns. Stratified charge engines keep the combustion in a controlled
area, usually using some kind of induction vortex, away from the
cylinder
walls thus promoting the higher temperature, clean burning reactions.
>Now you know.
It is certainly an interesting discussion.
I love this List !
>Priming M14P's
>I've heard/read every different method/combination of priming for a
>sure start. I've owned several, flown a few more and I've still got
two.
> I assert the factory knows best !
I happen to agree with you on this.
>The factory says:- After pull through etc. to cold start:
>9 squirts simultaneously pulling 9 blades (impossible without help, or
>of 9 ascents of the wing) ONLY THIS METHOD GIVES TOTAL SAFE CYLINDER
>WETTING. See above.
Actually, if you think about it, the liquid fuel drains downward and
never
makes it into the upper cylinders to do any sort of wetting.
Wrong.
My M14 P's have the primer plumbed direct into every cylinder, top and
bottom. Cylinder wetting is uniform provided it's coupled with pulling
through.
Oh, and another thing, it doesn't matter whether it is fuel, steel, or
aluminum, if it is cold enough, it will cause the fuel to condense,
therefore "wetting" the walls with fuel will have no effect on whether
the
fuel vapor condenses or not.
>Quarter throttle or as required for approx 42 % idle. Primer in hand
>ready for a top up prime on initial fire-up if required. Press the
start
>button and after two blades have passed your eyes flick both mag's
>'live' being careful to keep the starter button pushed until the engine
>comes completely alive. It never fails for me.
That definitely works. It works with the Housai too.
Oh that other things in life were so reliable.
You can also start them by just priming the engine without pulling it
through
Not a practise I could recommend !
if you are willing to let the engine rotate through several more
blades until the mixture reaches proportions that will burn. That is
what
I do when I don't feel the need for all that exercise. OTOH, if air
pressure is low and I want the engine to fire on the first blade, I
prime
the engine as I have someone pull it through. This ensures that the
mixture already in the cylinder will combust as soon as spark is
introduced.
I have even had engines fire as soon as the starter button is pressed
and
before any air has been introduced into the cylinder to cause the engine
to
turn. This is a function of the proper mixture being present in the
cylinder and has nothing to do with wetting the cylinder walls.
It's a 'chicken and egg' situation. I stand by my Layman's description.
>However experience has tought me that it's the primer itself that
varies
>between planes rather than the engines. It's important to 'stroke' the
>primer a couple of times (or until slight change of resistance/sound is
>noticed) in order to 'prime the primer'. It's this that varies from
>plane to plane. Some are instantly primed and others take up to 5
>strokes to prime themselves. I only start the engine priming of 9
>squirts once the primer is primed. As long as you pull through one
blade
> after each priming 'stroke' it's impossible to over prime.
I agree with this 100%.
>IMPORTANT:
>Its easy to rush the primer by pushing too fast or too hard. All that
>happens if you do is that the priming fuel is forced past the seals in
>the primer(creating premature wear) and it doesn't reach the cylinders.
>Take 2<3 seconds for each stroke and you get a complete charge.
It seems to me that pressing fast/hard on the primer will get the fuel
to
spray/atomize better in the supercharger housing than pressing slowly.
As above, my primers are plumbed directly into individual cylinders but
the ''injector'' is a crude nozzle not necessarily designed to atomise.
PRESSING HARD OR FAST IS THE WRONG METHOD. Trust me!
If
you think about it, consider the force you *can* apply to the primer
handle
and the cross section area of the primer piston itself. You will find
the
pressures are not that high when compared with the kinds of pressures an
O-ring is required to contain in hydraulic and pneumatic actuators.
The inside of the primer is modelled on a bicycle pump not a hydraulic
ram.
>Washing oil off the cylinder walls is not worth talking about unless
>your engine is so grossly over rich when running as to render it
>unflyable. The start up procedure cannot last long enough for the heat
>build up required before damage occurred.
I agree with this 100%.
>All a bit long winded but definitive.
Certainly interesting to think about.
>Fly safe
Thank you. I hope you fly safely too.
I love this List !
kp
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | start sequence and sheared pins... |
| From: | "Barry W. Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Guys,
I'm living proof that a kickback causes sheared pins. It happened to me
at SnF. I have since changed my start procedure to mags cold until the
engine fires and have had no kickbacks as of yet. If it changes I'll
let you know...
Cheers,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
At 11:21 AM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
>
>Guys,
>
>I'm living proof that a kickback causes sheared pins. It happened to me
>at SnF. I have since changed my start procedure to mags cold until the
>engine fires and have had no kickbacks as of yet. If it changes I'll
>let you know...
This does sound like a difference between the Housai and M14.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us> |
| Subject: | Champion REL 37B |
Does anyone out there have access to these spark plugs for M14P for less
than the $27.00 advertised in Trade-A-Plane? Thanks, Rick PS That's
$27.00 each!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First aid box updated 6/6/20 |
This list will be updated and posted every day until 6/10/02.
Listers, Lurkers and Gibs,
Below is a list of parts which I feel the group may want to consider
having on hand at its functions I have indicated my
idea of priority by *'s after the part name, no *'s means high priority.
2 *'s means it would be nice to have in the selection but most likely
will not be necessary. This gestimate (WAG) is based on how frequently
I sell the item. Quantities are 1 unless otherwise noted. Once we can
come up with a firm list I will figure the cost based on a 15% discount
off my printed price list.
1. Shutters, 2 of each style **
2. Gill bolts long and short 2 each*
3. Gill bolt nuts 6 nuts
4. Triple gauge
5. Flap valve / front gear valve
6. Prop tools, set
7. Main and emergency air valve
8. QS1 brake air pressure reducing valve
9. QS2 differential brake valve
10. Check valves 2 ea.
11. PTT switch
13. Gear diverter valve*
14. Diverter valve overhaul kit, 4 ea.
15. Primer
16. Nose gear actuator overhaul kit
17. Yak 52 mag
18. CJ6 mag
19. Pop off valve
20. Valve cover cables 4 each
21. Spark plugs, 10 each with gapping tool
22. Valve cover seals, red silicone 18 each
23. Carb diaphragm
24. Starter solenoid valve
25. Rear gear valve
26. Start booster coil
27. Lower cowl bushings 4 each**
28. Green nav light assy**
29. Red nav light assy**
30. Flap diverter valve
31. Shimmy damper repair kit 2 each
32. Ship material to shim scissors
33. Front brake cable
34. Rear brake cable
35. Landing light bulb 2 each
36. Gear and tail light bulb 2 each*
37. gear indicator (panel) bulbs 10 each
38. Engine cly repair kit 3 each (lock tabs, seals and
gaskets)
39. Goolsby's compressor nail (aircraft quality of course) 2 ea.
40. Safety wire 1 roll .032 stainless wire
41. Oil pump**
42. Fuel pump**
43. Oil and fuel pump drive
44. Oil door**
45. Fuel door**
46. Selection of metric wrenches
47. Selection of metric sockets with ratchet handle
48. Generator brushes**
49. Brake handle
50. Small selection of stainless steel clamps
51. Nose wheel tube
52. Main wheel tube
53. Special plug wrench
54. Small selection of hardware
55. Brake lines 2 each**
56. Air compressor and special tool (s) for removal
Again guys, please be a part of this process, don't count on my HUA
memory to provide an accurate list of everything you might need if your
CJ decides to go TU.http://avweb.com/n/?23b
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
If anyone hast Flightsoft Flight Planning software, it has a W&B calculator,
it allows you to input all of your stations and it does everything for you.
I did it for mine and it works great.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Weight and Balance
>
> At 04:08 AM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >From: "Mark Jefferies , YAK UK Ltd" <yakuk(at)compuserve.com>
> >Subject: Yak-List: C of G
> >
> >
> >
> >Why does not someone draw up a C of G calculator that the pilot may just
> >insert his own a/c data (weight & arm) post it on a web site. I will
> >even host a CJ6 calculator. Take a look at www.yakuk.co.uk/downloads.htm
> >for calculator for the YAK 52, L-29. I have an advanced copy for YAK 50
> >but its just in the checking stages, this one will do mac & distance
> >calks.
> >
> >When the CJ6 one is done all this bickering can stop.
> >
> >Brian, you have a copy of my YAK 50 draft calculator, use this as a
> >template?
>
> Wilco. Actually, that Excel template is so complex and cool I am pretty
> sure it uses features of Excel I have never even heard of. Perhaps I can
> just change the values and make it work.
>
> Still, I do know how to make a not-quite-so-pretty sheet that will work.
I
> suspect that others have already done so.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
I have the Housai, and I was specifically told to crank with cold mags
during start, so I do...., not that I really understood the reason, but why
argue with success.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
> At 11:21 AM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >Guys,
> >
> >I'm living proof that a kickback causes sheared pins. It happened to me
> >at SnF. I have since changed my start procedure to mags cold until the
> >engine fires and have had no kickbacks as of yet. If it changes I'll
> >let you know...
>
> This does sound like a difference between the Housai and M14.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
> I have the Housai, and I was specifically told to crank with cold mags
> during start, so I do...., not that I really understood the reason, but
why
> argue with success.
>
> Ernie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
>
> >
> > At 11:21 AM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
My CJ will not start with the mag in the off position, by this I mean the
starter will not deliver air to the engine unless the mag is the on
position. Is this plane wired differently than the rest. I would like to
start on the shower of sparks then turn the mag on but it on't work on this
plane. Comments?
Terry Lewis
> > Brian Lloyd
> > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: engines running "backward", detonation, preignition, etc. |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Yak-List: engines running "backward", detonation, preignition, etc.
>
>
> > > It's not the fact that it runs backwards, in fact it's not 'running'
in the
> > > true sense of the word at all ! It's the fact that each explosion
within a
> > > cylinder or cylinders is dependent upon the compressed gasses reaching
an
> > > explosive compression level rather than receiving an accurately timed
spark
> > > just before TDC.
>
> Our engines don't have high enough compression to do this. You are
> describing a diesel engine. Often people call reverse running (for want
of
> a better name) "dieseling" but that is not what it is. It is actually a
> form of preignition, usually from hot carbon deposits but possibly from a
> normally timed spark when the engine is rotating very slowly and with
> nothing to resist the reverse rotation (such as low starting pressure).
Brian - Have to differ with you here. I have seen a number of R1340 reverse
starts and have had two of my own in the past 30 years or so. Compression
ratio 6 to 1.
Also one memorable occasion trying to rope start an R2600 on a B25. That
also ran backwards on the first attempt. Reason is good strong magnetoes
firing at their normal setting of 25 degs.(R1340) at too low a cranking
speed. It is more likely to happen with the non-retarded "shower of sparks"
system. For this reason I have years ago disconnected this system on the
Harvard. It is totally unnecessary. Could happen to the Housai or M14P with
low air pressure or attempting a hand strart - NOT a good idea with these
engines.
> > > The resulting out of sequence ignitions therefore have the
> > > potential to occur simultaneously in opposing cylinders resulting in
huge
> > > and stressful opposing forces. A half stroke explosion results in
gross
> > > reversing shock loads, and most damaging of all, an explosion at
Bottom
> > Dead
> > > Centre. At BDC the piston has nowhere to go and the entire shock is
passed
> > > to both the small and big end bushes.
>
> At BDC of the intake stroke the intake valve hasn't closed all the way
(see
> note below) so ignition at BDC usually results in a backfire, with the
> flame front going out through the not-quite-closed intake valve, possibly
> igniting the fuel-air charge in the induction system. This is generally a
> problem for the induction system and causes induction fires in
> aircraft. If you want to continue with your previous inclusion of
> automobile racing engines, in dragsters with Roots blowers (superchargers)
> this can result in a rather spectacular failure of the supercharger, much
> to the delight of the audience and dismay of the owner/driver.
>
> (Note: virtually all four-stroke engines have valve durations that cause
> overlap, i.e. both exhaust and intake valves being open simultaneously at
> the end of the exhaust cycle and beginning of the intake cycle. The
> overlap favors improved scavenging of exhaust and starts the induction
flow
> early in order to get more fuel/air mix into the cylinder.
>
> In addition the cam is likely to cause the intake valve to remain open
> until after the compression stroke begins. This is done to allow the
> inertia of the airflow or boost from the supercharger to continue to fill
> the cylinder even after the piston has started up in the compression
> cycle. This crams even more fuel/air into the cylinder and allows the
> cylinder to produce more power than it otherwise would. Long valve
> durations favor high RPM operation so we don't find really long duration
> cams in aircraft engines.
>
> Another advantage of long duration cams is to give hot rods that really
> cool stumbling/loping idle that screams to your neighbor at the stoplight,
> "I am going to blow your doors off when the light changes so don't mess
> with me.")
>
> > > To put it simply every explosion is a detonation rather than a
controlled
> > > burn. Detonation is to be avoided , always.
>
> That is true but the causes of detonation vary. Also people tend to
> confuse preignition with detonation and vice-versa. What we have been
> discussing, i.e. engines firing and turning backwards, may or may not
> involve preignition and probably don't involve detonation.
>
> > > It rarely happens on correctly timed engines.
>
> If the engine is turning very slowly and ignition happens before TDC
> (normally this IS when the ignition system fires the plug), the engine
will
> turn in the reverse direction because it has insufficient inertia to keep
> it turning past TDC. Since it is turning very slowly the loads on the
> accessories and gears are pretty low so I wouldn't expect any damage.
But,
> hey, what do I know, right?
>
> Open question: are there any accessories that will be damaged by reverse
> rotation? Reverse rotation can destroy a dry vacuum pump such as used in
> spam cans (this is why you never rotate the prop backwards on a spam can)
> but I can't think of anything on our Eastern Bloc aircraft that would be
> similarly affected.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
>
> >
> > I have the Housai, and I was specifically told to crank with cold mags
> > during start, so I do...., not that I really understood the reason, but
> why
> > argue with success.
> >
> > Ernie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At 11:21 AM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
>
>
> My CJ will not start with the mag in the off position, by this I mean the
> starter will not deliver air to the engine unless the mag is the on
> position. Is this plane wired differently than the rest. I would like to
> start on the shower of sparks then turn the mag on but it on't work on
this
> plane. Comments?
> Terry Lewis
Interesting -- your start solenoid must be wired through the mag switch. I
have not seen one wired that way as yet but most of the CJ's I am involved
with are older models. Have they made a change? What year is yours?
> > > Brian Lloyd
> > > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
That's why us "cheapo guys" still use the Russian plugs which last as long
if not longer than the REL37B's. And they're quite reliable.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Does anyone out there have access to these spark plugs for M14P for less
> than the $27.00 advertised in Trade-A-Plane? Thanks, Rick PS That's
> $27.00 each!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and gapping
those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks me off
the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less than
$27.00 Regards, Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
>
> > > Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the
starter
> > > to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter
could
> > > not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic
lock
> > > occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if the
> > > starting torque exceeded a certain value.
> >
> >P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
> >likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of an
> >internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational oil
flow
> >through the oil pump and into the engine.
>
> The M14P has such a valve. I believe that the Housai engine does
> too. There is a check valve assembly that is part of the oil pump if you
> look at the exploded diagram and parts list for the Housai oil pump.
I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as well
as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil system
check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other info
that could locate it?
> > >The same comparison may not be
> >true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a similar
check
> >valve. I don't know.
>
> It does.
>
> > > Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit the
> > > starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition
regardless
> > > of the position of the mag switch.
> >
> >Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start system
> >rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
> >through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch
off.
I should have finished the above para. - my brain was thinking Pratt &
Whitney not Huosai. The CJ is not so wired.
> From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the "vibrator"
in
> the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator
that
> repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of the
> magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker
instead of the main
> breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto primary
> instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the
"vibrator"
> or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic field in
> the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about 300V
> from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly what
was used in the Ford Model T.
A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the booster
(not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster (not
the magneto) secondary.
This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high tension
retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other part
of the mag.
> Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
> that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
There is no retard breaker
> terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact that
> the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the mags
> are turned off.
> BTW, this is one of the ways I have discovered that you can use to make
> yourself feel stupid in front of many people. You then get the pleasure
of
> having to unstrap, get up, and go turn the mag switch back on in the back
> seat. You get extra points for this if you are starting for the formation
> start at Oshkosh for the warbird formation fly-over.
>
> Now the big difference I see between the Housai system and the "shower of
> sparks" system from Bendix, Unison (Slick), and the like is that the
> domestic systems either have a relay or an extra pole on the
> magneto/starter switch that grounds the p-lead to the main breaker points
> so that the mag cannot fire when the main points open at 25 degrees
> BTDC. This may be why the Russians want the mag switch off when starting
> until the engine fires on the retard breaker. This would tend to support
> the supposition that the engine could kick back if the mags are left on
> when you start to crank.
>
> Usual disclaimers: Your mileage may vary; I am not an A&P but I play one
on
> a mailing list; Post no bills.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AirshowPilot1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
We found that the Russian plugs and the Champion plugs seem to have different
heat range values. In air show performance, we found that we had to reset
the timing to accomodate the diffferent heat range. Plus, the internal bore
on a Champion plug is much greater than the Russian plug giving the spark
wire lead much greater "float" inside the bore, we found that this would
cause some arcing on occasion and cause plugs to ground out at certain RPM
settings. We discovered this because of the Horizon digital tach installed
that registers a warning when there is an 80 rpm drop on any magneto. We
ultimately returned to the russian plugs and have enjoyed very reliable
service and wear. A lot of fooling around to get the same performance taht
you get for $600 less.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
Supply and demand Richard! If I'm not mistaken, the only "flat engine"
using the REL37B's is the Franklin. Not enough demand. That's probably why
they're $27. I bought the Russian plugs from Carl Hays in CA just a couple
of months ago and the price was still $15 each. Not like they were 5 years
ago at $7 each, but still not too bad I guess.
Don't forget to remove the set of $100 adapters inside the caps which screw
onto the plugs first.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and gapping
> those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks me off
> the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less than
> $27.00 Regards, Rick
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
Walt,
This is a duplicate of a reply I sent a couple of days ago concerning the
check valve on the M14P.
"I believe you will find the description of the valve in the M14P
maintenance
manual, section 072.50.00, page 8. The last paragraph on the page refers to
the valve; "With the engine inoperative, the check valve precludes flow of
oil from the tank to the engine". Go to page 10 of the same section and see
figure 3, Oil Pump Reducing Valve assembly."
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
>
> >
> >
> > > > Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the
> starter
> > > > to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the starter
> could
> > > > not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should hydraulic
> lock
> > > > occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if
the
> > > > starting torque exceeded a certain value.
> > >
> > >P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
> > >likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of an
> > >internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational oil
> flow
> > >through the oil pump and into the engine.
> >
> > The M14P has such a valve. I believe that the Housai engine does
> > too. There is a check valve assembly that is part of the oil pump if
you
> > look at the exploded diagram and parts list for the Housai oil pump.
>
> I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as
well
> as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil system
> check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
> luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other info
> that could locate it?
>
>
> > > >The same comparison may not be
> > >true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a similar
> check
> > >valve. I don't know.
> >
> > It does.
> >
> > > > Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit
the
> > > > starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition
> regardless
> > > > of the position of the mag switch.
> > >
> > >Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start
system
> > >rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
> > >through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch
> off.
>
> I should have finished the above para. - my brain was thinking Pratt &
> Whitney not Huosai. The CJ is not so wired.
> > From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the "vibrator"
> in
> > the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator
> that
> > repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of the
> > magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker
> instead of the main
> > breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto
primary
> > instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the
> "vibrator"
> > or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic field
in
> > the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about 300V
> > from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
>
> No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly what
> was used in the Ford Model T.
> A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the
booster
> (not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster (not
> the magneto) secondary.
> This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high
tension
> retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other
part
> of the mag.
>
> > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
> > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
>
> There is no retard breaker
>
> > terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact that
> > the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the
mags
> > are turned off.
>
> > BTW, this is one of the ways I have discovered that you can use to make
> > yourself feel stupid in front of many people. You then get the pleasure
> of
> > having to unstrap, get up, and go turn the mag switch back on in the
back
> > seat. You get extra points for this if you are starting for the
formation
> > start at Oshkosh for the warbird formation fly-over.
> >
> > Now the big difference I see between the Housai system and the "shower
of
> > sparks" system from Bendix, Unison (Slick), and the like is that the
> > domestic systems either have a relay or an extra pole on the
> > magneto/starter switch that grounds the p-lead to the main breaker
points
> > so that the mag cannot fire when the main points open at 25 degrees
> > BTDC. This may be why the Russians want the mag switch off when
starting
> > until the engine fires on the retard breaker. This would tend to
support
> > the supposition that the engine could kick back if the mags are left on
> > when you start to crank.
> >
> > Usual disclaimers: Your mileage may vary; I am not an A&P but I play one
> on
> > a mailing list; Post no bills.
> >
> >
> > Brian Lloyd
> > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
> Walt,
> This is a duplicate of a reply I sent a couple of days ago concerning the
> check valve on the M14P.
> "I believe you will find the description of the valve in the M14P
> maintenance
> manual, section 072.50.00, page 8. The last paragraph on the page refers
to
> the valve; "With the engine inoperative, the check valve precludes flow
of
> oil from the tank to the engine". Go to page 10 of the same section and
see
> figure 3, Oil Pump Reducing Valve assembly."
> Dennis Savarese
Thanks Dennis;
In previous postings I have been refering to the Huosai engine. I have no
experience at all with the M14P or any manuals for it.
As far as I can determine at this time there appears to be no similar check
valve in the Huosai.
Walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Actually, they are just as prone to hydraulic lock. They used the
> > starter
> > > > > to turn the engines because, unlike pulling on the prop, the
starter
> > could
> > > > > not generate sufficient torque to damage the engine should
hydraulic
> > lock
> > > > > occur. As I recall, some even had a clutch that would release if
> the
> > > > > starting torque exceeded a certain value.
> > > >
> > > >P&W R985, R1340, R1830 and probably all models are considerably less
> > > >likely to hydraulic lock than the Housai due to the incorporation of
an
> > > >internal check valve to prevent (or at least reduce) gravitational
oil
> > flow
> > > >through the oil pump and into the engine.
> > >
> > > The M14P has such a valve. I believe that the Housai engine does
> > > too. There is a check valve assembly that is part of the oil pump if
> you
> > > look at the exploded diagram and parts list for the Housai oil pump.
> >
> > I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as
> well
> > as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil
system
> > check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
> > luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other
info
> > that could locate it?
> >
> >
> > > > >The same comparison may not be
> > > >true for the M14P as recent info on the list suggests it has a
similar
> > check
> > > >valve. I don't know.
> > >
> > > It does.
> > >
> > > > > Yeah, that is a problem for our Eastern Bloc engine. When you hit
> the
> > > > > starter it activates the "shower of sparks" so you have ignition
> > regardless
> > > > > of the position of the mag switch.
> > > >
> > > >Don't know about the M14P but the Housai uses a booster coil start
> system
> > > >rather than the shower of sparks type. In either case these are wired
> > > >through the magneto switch to preclude activation with the mag switch
> > off.
> >
> > I should have finished the above para. - my brain was thinking Pratt &
> > Whitney not Huosai. The CJ is not so wired.
> > > From what I can tell, the "booster coil" is identical to the
"vibrator"
> > in
> > > the "shower of sparks" system. The "booster coil" also has a vibrator
> > that
> > > repeatedly interrupts the flow of battery voltage to the primary of
the
> > > magneto through an internal coil to the retard breaker
> > instead of the main
> > > breaker. The battery then provides the excitation for the magneto
> primary
> > > instead of the rotating magnet armature. When the points in the
> > "vibrator"
> > > or "booster coil" open, the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic
field
> in
> > > the vibrator's coil gives the magneto primary a serious kick, about
300V
> > > from what I can tell. This ensures a nice hot spark.
> >
> > No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly
what
> > was used in the Ford Model T.
> > A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the
> booster
> > (not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster
(not
> > the magneto) secondary.
> > This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high
> tension
> > retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other
> part
> > of the mag.
> >
> > > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will
see
> > > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
> >
> > There is no retard breaker
> >
> > > terminal. In support of this supposition, I can attest to the fact
that
> > > the engine will fire and run on the starting ignition even though the
> mags
> > > are turned off.
> >
> > > BTW, this is one of the ways I have discovered that you can use to
make
> > > yourself feel stupid in front of many people. You then get the
pleasure
> > of
> > > having to unstrap, get up, and go turn the mag switch back on in the
> back
> > > seat. You get extra points for this if you are starting for the
> formation
> > > start at Oshkosh for the warbird formation fly-over.
> > >
> > > Now the big difference I see between the Housai system and the "shower
> of
> > > sparks" system from Bendix, Unison (Slick), and the like is that the
> > > domestic systems either have a relay or an extra pole on the
> > > magneto/starter switch that grounds the p-lead to the main breaker
> points
> > > so that the mag cannot fire when the main points open at 25 degrees
> > > BTDC. This may be why the Russians want the mag switch off when
> starting
> > > until the engine fires on the retard breaker. This would tend to
> support
> > > the supposition that the engine could kick back if the mags are left
on
> > > when you start to crank.
> > >
> > > Usual disclaimers: Your mileage may vary; I am not an A&P but I play
one
> > on
> > > a mailing list; Post no bills.
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian Lloyd
> > > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engines running "backward", detonation, |
preignition, etc.
At 05:26 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> > Our engines don't have high enough compression to do this. You are
> > describing a diesel engine. Often people call reverse running (for want of
> > a better name) "dieseling" but that is not what it is. It is actually a
> > form of preignition, usually from hot carbon deposits but possibly from a
> > normally timed spark when the engine is rotating very slowly and with
> > nothing to resist the reverse rotation (such as low starting pressure).
>
>Brian - Have to differ with you here. I have seen a number of R1340 reverse
>starts and have had two of my own in the past 30 years or so. Compression
>ratio 6 to 1.
Actually we don't differ at all. I didn't say the engine couldn't fire and
turn backward, it can. I said that it didn't happen because the fuel
spontaneously combusted because of compression. You must introduce some
ignition source, either a spark or a hot piece of carbon, to get the fuel
to ignite and cause the engine to turn backwards.
>Also one memorable occasion trying to rope start an R2600 on a B25. That
>also ran backwards on the first attempt. Reason is good strong magnetoes
>firing at their normal setting of 25 degs.(R1340) at too low a cranking
>speed.
Yes, that can and does happen.
>It is more likely to happen with the non-retarded "shower of sparks"
>system. For this reason I have years ago disconnected this system on the
>Harvard. It is totally unnecessary. Could happen to the Housai or M14P with
>low air pressure or attempting a hand strart - NOT a good idea with these
>engines.
Then we are 100% in accord on all of this.
Two things mitigate with the Housai: there is no impulse coupling so the
mag by itself probably cannot generate a spark that will fire a cylinder,
and the centrifugal advance retards the timing to only about 3 degrees BTDC
when the engine is cranking thus reducing the chance of a reverse kick.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
At 06:29 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as well
>as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil system
>check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
>luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other info
>that could locate it?
I am looking at the parts list book, specifically Vol 4, HS-6A Engine,
chapter 16, Engine accessories. On the oil pump exploded view there is an
internal assembly, item number 7 on the parts list, labeled "check
valve". The problem with the parts list is that there it is almost
impossible to figure out how things work by looking at the drawing.
>No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly what
>was used in the Ford Model T.
OK, I can live with that.
>A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the booster
>(not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster (not
>the magneto) secondary.
OK.
>This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high tension
>retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other part
>of the mag.
OK, I looked at the mag exploded view in the parts list. I see the
terminal you are talking about. So you have convinced me.
But where are the primary points that time this thing? Even the model-T
had points (in addition to the vibrator) since it is very difficult to
accurately time the ignition's distributor in the secondary circuit.
> > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will see
> > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
>
>There is no retard breaker
OK, no retard breaker. Where are the points in the primary of the booster
coil? Are you telling me they rely on the distributor in the secondary to
completely handle the timing to ensure no spark until after TDC? On a good
day the spark will jump from the rotor terminal to the plug terminal early
and you are begging for the engine to fire early and turn backward. I
guess the reason I am being so hard-headed here is that I can't imagine
someone relying on such a kludge.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
Brian,
Referencing the M14 mags, (and you can tell me if they are similar to the
Housai), the shower of sparks coil/vibrator does have a set of points, at
least it does in the YAK 52. From this unit the 5mm wire (shielded) runs
to the left mag. The wire goes directly into the top, center of the
distributor cap and makes contact via button or ring (I can't remember
which, but that doesn't matter) it makes contact with the center of the
rotor. That contact on the rotor goes to the end of the rotor, (there are
two contact points), which is the AFTER TDC contact from the rotor to the
cap. So when the engine cranks and the start button is depressed, the
shower of sparks is applied to the AFTER TDC contact. Using the shower of
sparks causes the cylinders to fire on the power stroke versus the mags
which fire just at the very end of the compression stroke. When you flip
the mag switch on, the BEFORE TDC contacts fire and the engine runs
normally.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
> At 06:29 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> > I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as
well
> >as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil
system
> >check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
> >luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other
info
> >that could locate it?
>
> I am looking at the parts list book, specifically Vol 4, HS-6A Engine,
> chapter 16, Engine accessories. On the oil pump exploded view there is an
> internal assembly, item number 7 on the parts list, labeled "check
> valve". The problem with the parts list is that there it is almost
> impossible to figure out how things work by looking at the drawing.
>
> >No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly
what
> >was used in the Ford Model T.
>
> OK, I can live with that.
>
> >A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the
booster
> >(not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster
(not
> >the magneto) secondary.
>
> OK.
>
> >This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high
tension
> >retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other
part
> >of the mag.
>
> OK, I looked at the mag exploded view in the parts list. I see the
> terminal you are talking about. So you have convinced me.
>
> But where are the primary points that time this thing? Even the model-T
> had points (in addition to the vibrator) since it is very difficult to
> accurately time the ignition's distributor in the secondary circuit.
>
> > > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will
see
> > > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
> >
> >There is no retard breaker
>
> OK, no retard breaker. Where are the points in the primary of the booster
> coil? Are you telling me they rely on the distributor in the secondary to
> completely handle the timing to ensure no spark until after TDC? On a
good
> day the spark will jump from the rotor terminal to the plug terminal early
> and you are begging for the engine to fire early and turn backward. I
> guess the reason I am being so hard-headed here is that I can't imagine
> someone relying on such a kludge.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I have the Housai, and I was specifically told to crank with cold mags
> > > during start, so I do...., not that I really understood the reason,
but
> > why
> > > argue with success.
> > >
> > > Ernie
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:21 AM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > My CJ will not start with the mag in the off position, by this I mean
the
> > starter will not deliver air to the engine unless the mag is the on
> > position. Is this plane wired differently than the rest. I would like to
> > start on the shower of sparks then turn the mag on but it on't work on
> this
> > plane. Comments?
> > Terry Lewis
> Interesting -- your start solenoid must be wired through the mag switch. I
> have not seen one wired that way as yet but most of the CJ's I am involved
> with are older models. Have they made a change? What year is yours?
My CJ is a 1965.
Terry
> > > > Brian Lloyd
> > > > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > > > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > > > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
Walt and Terry,
My 1956 CJ5 is wired the same way. If the mags are not on the solenoid
valve is inop. This may indicate that this is normal for the earlier
aircraft rather than a change in the later production. Walt, isn't your
hanger queen a 63 or 4??
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | starting ignition system, timing |
At 05:49 AM 6/7/2002, you wrote:
>
>Brian,
>Referencing the M14 mags, (and you can tell me if they are similar to the
>Housai), the shower of sparks coil/vibrator does have a set of points, at
>least it does in the YAK 52. From this unit the 5mm wire (shielded) runs
>to the left mag. The wire goes directly into the top, center of the
>distributor cap and makes contact via button or ring (I can't remember
>which, but that doesn't matter) it makes contact with the center of the
>rotor. That contact on the rotor goes to the end of the rotor, (there are
>two contact points), which is the AFTER TDC contact from the rotor to the
>cap. So when the engine cranks and the start button is depressed, the
>shower of sparks is applied to the AFTER TDC contact. Using the shower of
>sparks causes the cylinders to fire on the power stroke versus the mags
>which fire just at the very end of the compression stroke. When you flip
>the mag switch on, the BEFORE TDC contacts fire and the engine runs
>normally.
Well, I am convinced this is not a "shower of sparks" system, this in spite
of the misleading "shower of sparks" label on my copy of the eletrical
system schematic. It is as Walt Lannon described it, a separate spark
system. The kicker for me was the realization that the second winding on
the booster coil connected to ground, not the hot end of the primary. That
is the same topology as the old model-T spark coil.
But even the model T had points to adjust the timing (points closed for
spark rather than opened). Using the distributor to control the timing is
a real kludge and I have a lot of trouble believing someone would design it
that way. Still, that appears to be the way it works.
Now there is the, "mags on vs. mags off for starting," discussion. I never
worried about it for the Huosai engine because I thought that the mags have
centrifugal advance. (They do, don't they?) If so, the timing is already
substantially retarded at low RPM. The combination of retarded timing and
low RPM keeping the output of the mag very low reduces the chance of
kick-back to a very low level.
What is the timing on the mags on the M14 at start? Do they have fixed
timing like the mags on US engines do? If so then I can see why they would
want the mags off during start in order to retard the timing.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: engines running "backward", detonation, preignition, etc. |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: engines running "backward", detonation, preignition,
etc.
>
> At 05:26 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> > > Our engines don't have high enough compression to do this. You are
> > > describing a diesel engine. Often people call reverse running (for
want of
> > > a better name) "dieseling" but that is not what it is. It is actually
a
> > > form of preignition, usually from hot carbon deposits but possibly
from a
> > > normally timed spark when the engine is rotating very slowly and with
> > > nothing to resist the reverse rotation (such as low starting
pressure).
> >
> >Brian - Have to differ with you here. I have seen a number of R1340
reverse
> >starts and have had two of my own in the past 30 years or so. Compression
> >ratio 6 to 1.
>
> Actually we don't differ at all. I didn't say the engine couldn't fire
and
> turn backward, it can. I said that it didn't happen because the fuel
> spontaneously combusted because of compression. You must introduce some
> ignition source, either a spark or a hot piece of carbon, to get the fuel
> to ignite and cause the engine to turn backwards.
>
> >Also one memorable occasion trying to rope start an R2600 on a B25. That
> >also ran backwards on the first attempt. Reason is good strong magnetoes
> >firing at their normal setting of 25 degs.(R1340) at too low a cranking
> >speed.
>
> Yes, that can and does happen.
>
> >It is more likely to happen with the non-retarded "shower of sparks"
> >system. For this reason I have years ago disconnected this system on the
> >Harvard. It is totally unnecessary. Could happen to the Housai or M14P
with
> >low air pressure or attempting a hand strart - NOT a good idea with these
> >engines.
>
> Then we are 100% in accord on all of this.
>
> Two things mitigate with the Housai: there is no impulse coupling so the
> mag by itself probably cannot generate a spark that will fire a cylinder,
> and the centrifugal advance retards the timing to only about 3 degrees
BTDC
> when the engine is cranking thus reducing the chance of a reverse kick.
Good point, I had forgotten that. It makes a signifigant difference.
Walt
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cylinder priming
>
> At 06:29 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> > I checked both the parts list drawings and a spare Housai oil pump as
well
> >as the rear engine case and can find nothing that looks like an oil
system
> >check valve. Also looked through the Polish AI14 overhaul manual with no
> >luck. Maybe it is somewhere else in the system. Do you have any other
info
> >that could locate it?
>
> I am looking at the parts list book, specifically Vol 4, HS-6A Engine,
> chapter 16, Engine accessories. On the oil pump exploded view there is an
> internal assembly, item number 7 on the parts list, labeled "check
> valve". The problem with the parts list is that there it is almost
> impossible to figure out how things work by looking at the drawing.
>
> >No - the booster coil system is simplicity personified. It is exactly
what
> >was used in the Ford Model T.
>
> OK, I can live with that.
>
> >A set of points (the vibrator) interrupts the primary circuit of the
booster
> >(not the magneto) coil which results in a high tension in the booster
(not
> >the magneto) secondary.
>
> OK.
>
> >This energy is transmitted by a high tension wire directly to a high
tension
> >retard terminal in the magnetoe's distributor. It does not use an other
part
> >of the mag.
>
> OK, I looked at the mag exploded view in the parts list. I see the
> terminal you are talking about. So you have convinced me.
>
> But where are the primary points that time this thing? Even the model-T
> had points (in addition to the vibrator) since it is very difficult to
> accurately time the ignition's distributor in the secondary circuit.
>
> > > Also, if you look at the electrical schematic for the CJ6A you will
see
> > > that the "booster coil" is connected to a different terminal on the
> > > magneto, not the main p-lead. I believe this is the retard breaker
> >
> >There is no retard breaker
>
> OK, no retard breaker. Where are the points in the primary of the booster
> coil? Are you telling me they rely on the distributor in the secondary to
> completely handle the timing to ensure no spark until after TDC? On a
good
> day the spark will jump from the rotor terminal to the plug terminal early
> and you are begging for the engine to fire early and turn backward. I
> guess the reason I am being so hard-headed here is that I can't imagine
> someone relying on such a kludge.
Thats' it. It is timed only by the HT distributor in the mag. Does'nt have
to be high tech., only needs to fire for a few seconds.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | shower of sparks |
Hi,
No one has mentioned that the shower of sparks can be adjusted .
There is a screw on the front of the coil, that when opened, exposes an
adjustment screw that changes the frequency of the coil.
I adjusted mine and had a noticeable improvement in starting. Credit to
Gary Pope for this tip.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
> Walt and Terry,
> My 1956 CJ5 is wired the same way. If the mags are not on the solenoid
> valve is inop. This may indicate that this is normal for the earlier
> aircraft rather than a change in the later production. Walt, isn't your
> hanger queen a 63 or 4??
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
Doug and Terry;
My hangar queen is from Dec 65, I don't know how it's wired. I do know that
on the ones I have restored the air start will operate with the mag. switch
off.
During restoration I delete all the mag switch wiring going to the rear
cockpit. Maybe I have screwed up here and deleted a wire I should not have.
We do have one stock CJ here, also 1965. I will find out how it is set up
and advise.
Walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cylinder priming |
At 09:08 AM 6/7/2002, you wrote:
> > OK, no retard breaker. Where are the points in the primary of the booster
> > coil? Are you telling me they rely on the distributor in the secondary to
> > completely handle the timing to ensure no spark until after TDC? On a good
> > day the spark will jump from the rotor terminal to the plug terminal early
> > and you are begging for the engine to fire early and turn backward. I
> > guess the reason I am being so hard-headed here is that I can't imagine
> > someone relying on such a kludge.
>
>Thats' it. It is timed only by the HT distributor in the mag. Does'nt have
>to be high tech., only needs to fire for a few seconds.
I just have this aversion to ugly design so I assume others do too. It
would have been relatively easy to add another set of points to control the
timing of the booster coil and reduce the wear on the distributor.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: shower of sparks |
At 09:15 AM 6/7/2002, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
>No one has mentioned that the shower of sparks can be adjusted .
Let's stop calling it the "shower of sparks" since that is not what it is.
>There is a screw on the front of the coil, that when opened, exposes an
>adjustment screw that changes the frequency of the coil.
>I adjusted mine and had a noticeable improvement in starting. Credit to
>Gary Pope for this tip.
This would be adjusting the stop on the vibrator to get best action. This
is analogous to the adjustment screw on electric automobile horns. In
fact, electrically and mechanically they are very similar.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starting ignition system, timing |
According to the M14 Manual, the static timing (dwell) is set to 13-16
degrees BTC. IAW the manual engine timing is 23 degrees BTDC. In the
manual, they call it "advance angle for LH and RH magneto (before TDC at end
of compression stroke). The timing must be fixed because if one attempts to
rotate the rotor with the cover and cap off, it is stationery and does not
move. Thus it's my belief there is no centrifugal advance.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Yak-List: starting ignition system, timing
>
> At 05:49 AM 6/7/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >Brian,
> >Referencing the M14 mags, (and you can tell me if they are similar to the
> >Housai), the shower of sparks coil/vibrator does have a set of points, at
> >least it does in the YAK 52. From this unit the 5mm wire (shielded)
runs
> >to the left mag. The wire goes directly into the top, center of the
> >distributor cap and makes contact via button or ring (I can't remember
> >which, but that doesn't matter) it makes contact with the center of the
> >rotor. That contact on the rotor goes to the end of the rotor, (there
are
> >two contact points), which is the AFTER TDC contact from the rotor to the
> >cap. So when the engine cranks and the start button is depressed, the
> >shower of sparks is applied to the AFTER TDC contact. Using the shower
of
> >sparks causes the cylinders to fire on the power stroke versus the mags
> >which fire just at the very end of the compression stroke. When you flip
> >the mag switch on, the BEFORE TDC contacts fire and the engine runs
> >normally.
>
> Well, I am convinced this is not a "shower of sparks" system, this in
spite
> of the misleading "shower of sparks" label on my copy of the eletrical
> system schematic. It is as Walt Lannon described it, a separate spark
> system. The kicker for me was the realization that the second winding on
> the booster coil connected to ground, not the hot end of the primary.
That
> is the same topology as the old model-T spark coil.
>
> But even the model T had points to adjust the timing (points closed for
> spark rather than opened). Using the distributor to control the timing is
> a real kludge and I have a lot of trouble believing someone would design
it
> that way. Still, that appears to be the way it works.
>
> Now there is the, "mags on vs. mags off for starting," discussion. I
never
> worried about it for the Huosai engine because I thought that the mags
have
> centrifugal advance. (They do, don't they?) If so, the timing is already
> substantially retarded at low RPM. The combination of retarded timing and
> low RPM keeping the output of the mag very low reduces the chance of
> kick-back to a very low level.
>
> What is the timing on the mags on the M14 at start? Do they have fixed
> timing like the mags on US engines do? If so then I can see why they
would
> want the mags off during start in order to retard the timing.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: starting ignition system, timing |
At 10:42 AM 6/7/2002, you wrote:
>
>According to the M14 Manual, the static timing (dwell) is set to 13-16
>degrees BTC. IAW the manual engine timing is 23 degrees BTDC. In the
>manual, they call it "advance angle for LH and RH magneto (before TDC at end
>of compression stroke). The timing must be fixed because if one attempts to
>rotate the rotor with the cover and cap off, it is stationery and does not
>move. Thus it's my belief there is no centrifugal advance.
>Dennis Savarese
Then that is a big reason for the difference between the Huosai and
M14P. With fixed ignition timing, the M14P will need to retard the timing
by disabling the main breaker points. That is why you need to turn the
mags off for start. Spam cans with "shower of sparks" ignition do this by
shorting out the main points and using the retard breaker only so the pilot
doesn't need to do anything extra.
From what I recall, the Huosai engine has centrifugal advance so the
timing is already very close to TDC (about 3-5 degrees if I recall
properly) during start so the chance of kick back is greatly reduced. If I
had to guess, I would say that starting a Huosai engine with the mags on is
not a problem.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Yak list <yaklist(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
I went to get my chutes repacked the other day. A guy came over to me and
said "I have these russian spark plugs, are you interested ?" I asked him
how much and he gave me 20 for $20. Right place right time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Supply and demand Richard! If I'm not mistaken, the only "flat engine"
> using the REL37B's is the Franklin. Not enough demand. That's probably
why
> they're $27. I bought the Russian plugs from Carl Hays in CA just a
couple
> of months ago and the price was still $15 each. Not like they were 5
years
> ago at $7 each, but still not too bad I guess.
> Don't forget to remove the set of $100 adapters inside the caps which
screw
> onto the plugs first.
> Dennis Savarese
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
>
>
> >
> > Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and
gapping
> > those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks me
off
> > the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less than
> > $27.00 Regards, Rick
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Yak list <yaklist(at)comcast.net> |
I am considering fitting a JPI 450 fuel flow use computer to my aircraft.
with its handheld GPS interface it looks really great. Cliff Coy, great guy,
suggested to me that I might want to look at the JPI EDM 700 9c which is a
much more inclusive instrument. When I got off the phone, and I am sorry for
not thinking about it at the time Cliff, I started thinking. The EDM 700
monitors all sorts of good stuff CHT all cylinders, EGT all cylinders as you
can easily lean to peak EGT. This makes great sense for aircraft with manual
mixture controls but what use would it be in a Yak 52 with automatic
mixture.
I need to be convinced as the cost increase is substantial.
Has anyone figured out a way to tune the mixture to peak EGT ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Champion REL 37B |
Ouch! Dennis that really hurts. :-) I'll see how tears work as thread
lube as 18 go in one at a time. The Champions are really shiny and come in
nifty plastic pouches. Yes! The glass is half full... Thanks to all. Ricky
B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Yak list
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
I went to get my chutes repacked the other day. A guy came over to me and
said "I have these russian spark plugs, are you interested ?" I asked him
how much and he gave me 20 for $20. Right place right time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Supply and demand Richard! If I'm not mistaken, the only "flat engine"
> using the REL37B's is the Franklin. Not enough demand. That's probably
why
> they're $27. I bought the Russian plugs from Carl Hays in CA just a
couple
> of months ago and the price was still $15 each. Not like they were 5
years
> ago at $7 each, but still not too bad I guess.
> Don't forget to remove the set of $100 adapters inside the caps which
screw
> onto the plugs first.
> Dennis Savarese
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
>
>
> >
> > Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and
gapping
> > those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks me
off
> > the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less than
> > $27.00 Regards, Rick
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
I wish it WERE me Rick. Unfortunately, it's someone else that got lucky.
However, the person did not say if they were new or not. I'll bet they
weren't. But for $20, I'm sure I could have them reconditioned and end up
with 12-15 good plugs.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Ouch! Dennis that really hurts. :-) I'll see how tears work as thread
> lube as 18 go in one at a time. The Champions are really shiny and come
in
> nifty plastic pouches. Yes! The glass is half full... Thanks to all.
Ricky
> B.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Yak list
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
>
> I went to get my chutes repacked the other day. A guy came over to me and
> said "I have these russian spark plugs, are you interested ?" I asked him
> how much and he gave me 20 for $20. Right place right time.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
>
> >
> > Supply and demand Richard! If I'm not mistaken, the only "flat engine"
> > using the REL37B's is the Franklin. Not enough demand. That's probably
> why
> > they're $27. I bought the Russian plugs from Carl Hays in CA just a
> couple
> > of months ago and the price was still $15 each. Not like they were 5
> years
> > ago at $7 each, but still not too bad I guess.
> > Don't forget to remove the set of $100 adapters inside the caps which
> screw
> > onto the plugs first.
> > Dennis Savarese
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and
> gapping
> > > those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks me
> off
> > > the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less
than
> > > $27.00 Regards, Rick
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
Hey Guys;
I don't know dick about Russian spark plugs but I have been maintaining five
CJ's for about six years and have yet to replace a Chinese plug. I would put
these up against Champion any day.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> I wish it WERE me Rick. Unfortunately, it's someone else that got lucky.
> However, the person did not say if they were new or not. I'll bet they
> weren't. But for $20, I'm sure I could have them reconditioned and end up
> with 12-15 good plugs.
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
>
> >
> > Ouch! Dennis that really hurts. :-) I'll see how tears work as thread
> > lube as 18 go in one at a time. The Champions are really shiny and come
> in
> > nifty plastic pouches. Yes! The glass is half full... Thanks to all.
> Ricky
> > B.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Yak list
> > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
> >
> >
> >
> > I went to get my chutes repacked the other day. A guy came over to me
and
> > said "I have these russian spark plugs, are you interested ?" I asked
him
> > how much and he gave me 20 for $20. Right place right time.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Supply and demand Richard! If I'm not mistaken, the only "flat
engine"
> > > using the REL37B's is the Franklin. Not enough demand. That's
probably
> > why
> > > they're $27. I bought the Russian plugs from Carl Hays in CA just a
> > couple
> > > of months ago and the price was still $15 each. Not like they were 5
> > years
> > > ago at $7 each, but still not too bad I guess.
> > > Don't forget to remove the set of $100 adapters inside the caps which
> > screw
> > > onto the plugs first.
> > > Dennis Savarese
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for that! I'll dig out that box and start cleaning and
> > gapping
> > > > those old Russian rascals saved after the conversion. Still ticks
me
> > off
> > > > the Great Society can't build and sell a darned spark plug for less
> than
> > > > $27.00 Regards, Rick
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Ignition, Oil System etc. |
I love this list but it sure eats up a lot of time. Been doing some
research today and have the following for your consideration;
Oil System
Brian; My hangar copy of the IPC is missing the 2 pages you referenced
but my spare copy at home has them. You are correct. The Huosai does
have an oil check valve. I suspect (but don't know) that it is the same
as the M14P.
The valve is integral with the oil pump and unlike the P&W engines I am
familiar with is not readily accessible for servicing. This is an
overhaul function; I would not recommend field disassembly of the oil
pump.
Mark; Is this the same location as the M14P?
With the P&W it is standard practice, at least on single engine
installations, to pull the prop through before starting
even though there is a slip clutch in the starter. It is a very rare
occurence to find a hydraulic lock. The only time in my experience was
after at least two months without running. I recently had a customers T6
that was dripping oil from the exhaust but had not shown any evidence of
hyd. lock. I removed and tested the check valve and found it leaking.
Lapped it in, tested zero leakage with gasoline, no problem since.
The Huosai seems to have a problem here; it dumps oil regularly on
pull-through from the exhaust and the intake drains. Pulling it through
is not a nicety - it is absolutely essential.
This little valve buried in the oil pump does not appear to do it's job.
Ignition;
Terry
My 1965 hangar queen ( thanks Doug - it takes one to know one) does not
have the start solenoid wired through the mag switch and the wiring
diagram does not show show that type of hookup.
I don't see a problem either way though I do see a distinct advantage in
having it wired as yours are. You will be the only one that knows you
forgot to turn the mags on. The rest of us are at the mercy of the
peanut gallery while we try to figure out why it quits when we release
the start button.
Because of the retarded starting boost system, and as Brian pointed out
the automatic advance breaker system, starting with mag switches on is
not a problem.
Cheers;
Walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kpilling" <kjpilling(at)btclick.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: kpilling
Subject: 3rd attempt
Even more humiliation in having this mail 'bounced' by the
server,,,twice.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kjpilling
Subject: Retraction
I AM BLOODY STUPID !!
Brian and all other Listers monitoring Brian and my recent exchange
PLEASE IGNORE MY CRASS MISTAKE !
The priming injectors are of course NOT plumbed into the '52 cylinder
heads, its only the YAK 11 that has both priming injectors and air
injectors plumbed directly into the heads ! It was that 7 cylinder ASh
engines cylinder head I was visualising as I made my last post ! That's
my best excuse an I'm sticking to it !
Brian is quite correct in assuming that the lower cylinders will be
favoured during priming. (unless you pull through very fast indeed).
I rushed the posting to leave work on time and I've suffered 2 hours of
email access denial in my journey home fuming at myself! Only 30
seconds after shutting down my work computer it dawned on me I'd boobed.
I even had to bribe the kids to use this email access.
It was a case of 'thumb up bum, brain in neutral' I UNRESERVEDLY
APOLOGISE TO BRIAN AND LISTERS FOR THE GAFF. On this occasion and point
Brian was 100% right and I was 100% wrong.
Its one thing to make a mistake but to make it to a world wide audience
of enlightened Listers is a really humiliating experience. Doh !
While we are on the subject and to be pedantic maybe It could have been
more scientific if I described wetting as giving a larger evaporation
surface of fuel to initiate a combustible mixture. That's 20-20
hindsight.
HOWEVER I STAND BY MY ORIGINAL POSTING AS A METHOD STATEMENT.
I am sure by now the daytime listers are having a field day at my
expense. I'm fortunate to not have access at home and will only get to
read the live list UK daytime Fri/Sat. In fact I'll probably delete it
unread to avoid the embarrassment.
Now if all you weight and balance addicts could get back on the subject
it will draw the attention away from me. Please.
Yours
kp
(likely to be quiet for some long while)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition, Oil System etc. |
Yes it is the same in the M14P. In the oil pump.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
Subject: Yak-List: Ignition, Oil System etc.
>
> I love this list but it sure eats up a lot of time. Been doing some
> research today and have the following for your consideration;
>
> Oil System
>
> Brian; My hangar copy of the IPC is missing the 2 pages you referenced
> but my spare copy at home has them. You are correct. The Huosai does
> have an oil check valve. I suspect (but don't know) that it is the same
> as the M14P.
>
> The valve is integral with the oil pump and unlike the P&W engines I am
> familiar with is not readily accessible for servicing. This is an
> overhaul function; I would not recommend field disassembly of the oil
> pump.
>
> Mark; Is this the same location as the M14P?
>
> With the P&W it is standard practice, at least on single engine
> installations, to pull the prop through before starting
> even though there is a slip clutch in the starter. It is a very rare
> occurence to find a hydraulic lock. The only time in my experience was
> after at least two months without running. I recently had a customers T6
> that was dripping oil from the exhaust but had not shown any evidence of
> hyd. lock. I removed and tested the check valve and found it leaking.
> Lapped it in, tested zero leakage with gasoline, no problem since.
>
> The Huosai seems to have a problem here; it dumps oil regularly on
> pull-through from the exhaust and the intake drains. Pulling it through
> is not a nicety - it is absolutely essential.
> This little valve buried in the oil pump does not appear to do it's job.
>
> Ignition;
>
> Terry
>
> My 1965 hangar queen ( thanks Doug - it takes one to know one) does not
> have the start solenoid wired through the mag switch and the wiring
> diagram does not show show that type of hookup.
> I don't see a problem either way though I do see a distinct advantage in
> having it wired as yours are. You will be the only one that knows you
> forgot to turn the mags on. The rest of us are at the mercy of the
> peanut gallery while we try to figure out why it quits when we release
> the start button.
>
> Because of the retarded starting boost system, and as Brian pointed out
> the automatic advance breaker system, starting with mag switches on is
> not a problem.
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Selby" <jimscjs(at)mbay.net> |
Yak-List
Does anyone know how to get hold of Bill Blackwell,all my numbers say
disconnected, I'm trying to find the CJ tail mod. kit.
Jim Selby
831/384-7046 Home/Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of kpilling
Subject: Yak-List: Fw: 3rd attempt
----- Original Message -----
From: kpilling
Subject: 3rd attempt
Even more humiliation in having this mail 'bounced' by the
server,,,twice.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kjpilling
Subject: Retraction
I AM BLOODY STUPID !!
Brian and all other Listers monitoring Brian and my recent exchange
PLEASE IGNORE MY CRASS MISTAKE !
The priming injectors are of course NOT plumbed into the '52 cylinder
heads, its only the YAK 11 that has both priming injectors and air
injectors plumbed directly into the heads ! It was that 7 cylinder ASh
engines cylinder head I was visualising as I made my last post ! That's
my best excuse an I'm sticking to it !
Brian is quite correct in assuming that the lower cylinders will be
favoured during priming. (unless you pull through very fast indeed).
I rushed the posting to leave work on time and I've suffered 2 hours of
email access denial in my journey home fuming at myself! Only 30
seconds after shutting down my work computer it dawned on me I'd boobed.
I even had to bribe the kids to use this email access.
It was a case of 'thumb up bum, brain in neutral' I UNRESERVEDLY
APOLOGISE TO BRIAN AND LISTERS FOR THE GAFF. On this occasion and point
Brian was 100% right and I was 100% wrong.
Its one thing to make a mistake but to make it to a world wide audience
of enlightened Listers is a really humiliating experience. Doh !
While we are on the subject and to be pedantic maybe It could have been
more scientific if I described wetting as giving a larger evaporation
surface of fuel to initiate a combustible mixture. That's 20-20
hindsight.
HOWEVER I STAND BY MY ORIGINAL POSTING AS A METHOD STATEMENT.
I am sure by now the daytime listers are having a field day at my
expense. I'm fortunate to not have access at home and will only get to
read the live list UK daytime Fri/Sat. In fact I'll probably delete it
unread to avoid the embarrassment.
Now if all you weight and balance addicts could get back on the subject
it will draw the attention away from me. Please.
Yours
kp
(likely to be quiet for some long while)
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAndMFLYAZ(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: 3rd attempt |
Hi Jim
Bill new cell is (623) 703-1001
Don Andrews
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
Sir, Will any of the Chinese fit M14P? Thanks, Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael DiMarco <mgdimarco(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
--- Doug wrote:
>
> Walt and Terry,
> My 1956 CJ5 is wired the same way. If the mags are not on the
> solenoid
> valve is inop. This may indicate that this is normal for the
> earlier
> aircraft rather than a change in the later production. Walt, isn't
> your
> hanger queen a 63 or 4??
My December 64 will turn the prop with the Mags off, but not start
the enginge until the mags are on. I would like to thank the person
suggesting that after priming, push the start switch with the mags
off until two turns. It offers all the vital parts of the other
start suggestions. Prime, turn, then spark and start with least
amount of air use.
Mike
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
Well Guys,
I'd like to say I had a great day. I finally weighed my plane and my
original numbers were right on, so I can now safely say that I have a
very accurate loading envelope for my aircraft. Sounds great right???
As I was jacking the plane up to remove the scale out from under the
main wheel, I neglected to check the position of the jackstand, and I
just started jacking........plane went up, I removed the scale then as I
was lowering the plane there was a pop and the plane came to rest on its
wheel. The jack wasnt in the jackpoint hole!!!! Its slipped and punched
a nice hole right through the bottom of my wing, and busted a rib.
Nothing very major, the rib can be fixed and a patch can be applied over
the hole using blind rivets, but now I'm grounded for at least a week,
and I'm probably facing about a $1000 repair bill.
Now thats one expensive W&B sheet!
Ernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: start sequence and sheared pins... |
Mine is a 64 and I can start with cold mags.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: start sequence and sheared pins...
>
> Walt and Terry,
> My 1956 CJ5 is wired the same way. If the mags are not on the solenoid
> valve is inop. This may indicate that this is normal for the earlier
> aircraft rather than a change in the later production. Walt, isn't your
> hanger queen a 63 or 4??
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition, Oil System etc. |
Gary
OK, I counted correctly. The other eight were the ones you paid for. Lets
try again;
22 at 3.00 = 66.00
2 at 3.00 = 6.00
Extra material = 14.00
Total = 86.00
Sorry for the confusion
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
Subject: Yak-List: Ignition, Oil System etc.
>
> I love this list but it sure eats up a lot of time. Been doing some
> research today and have the following for your consideration;
>
> Oil System
>
> Brian; My hangar copy of the IPC is missing the 2 pages you referenced
> but my spare copy at home has them. You are correct. The Huosai does
> have an oil check valve. I suspect (but don't know) that it is the same
> as the M14P.
>
> The valve is integral with the oil pump and unlike the P&W engines I am
> familiar with is not readily accessible for servicing. This is an
> overhaul function; I would not recommend field disassembly of the oil
> pump.
>
> Mark; Is this the same location as the M14P?
>
> With the P&W it is standard practice, at least on single engine
> installations, to pull the prop through before starting
> even though there is a slip clutch in the starter. It is a very rare
> occurence to find a hydraulic lock. The only time in my experience was
> after at least two months without running. I recently had a customers T6
> that was dripping oil from the exhaust but had not shown any evidence of
> hyd. lock. I removed and tested the check valve and found it leaking.
> Lapped it in, tested zero leakage with gasoline, no problem since.
>
> The Huosai seems to have a problem here; it dumps oil regularly on
> pull-through from the exhaust and the intake drains. Pulling it through
> is not a nicety - it is absolutely essential.
> This little valve buried in the oil pump does not appear to do it's job.
>
> Ignition;
>
> Terry
>
> My 1965 hangar queen ( thanks Doug - it takes one to know one) does not
> have the start solenoid wired through the mag switch and the wiring
> diagram does not show show that type of hookup.
> I don't see a problem either way though I do see a distinct advantage in
> having it wired as yours are. You will be the only one that knows you
> forgot to turn the mags on. The rest of us are at the mercy of the
> peanut gallery while we try to figure out why it quits when we release
> the start button.
>
> Because of the retarded starting boost system, and as Brian pointed out
> the automatic advance breaker system, starting with mag switches on is
> not a problem.
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry W. Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Well, since it's foot-in-mouth-week, I thought I'd join in on my screw
up. Several months back I was in a Nike frame of mind and suggested
that if you didn't have the horz. spar mod (SS doubler) installed on
your aircraft to consider it, or "just do it" is what I believe I said.
I was roundly chastised and, upon further investigation, rightly so.
Not that the Stainless 050 doubler is going to kill anybody, but it is
NOT the way to go. As Doug Sapp mentioned, however, it is what's
currently available if you have a crack in your horizontal.
After speaking with a DER and some other "metal guys" there are two big
problems with the mod. First, it is a dissimilar metal that is not only
thicker, but stronger than the metal in the airplane. This will serve
to push the flex points away from their originally designed places that,
while most likely sufficient (especially for the flying that 98% of us
do in these airplanes), was not engineered for this.
The second problem lies in the hardware. You are increasing the hole
diameters in the spar because the mod calls for larger *standard*
attachment hardware. I have been told this violates tolerances - which
I don't recall how to describe
So, what does all this mean? Well, in further talking with the DER and
the "metal guys" they do not think the mod is dangerous. They do
however wonder aloud how long the mod will last before stress cracks
start showing up at the end of the stronger, untapered, dissimilar metal
doubler.
Yes, there are aircraft out there that will never need the mod. No, you
should not put the mod on a "good" spar as a preventative measure. But
there are also aircraft out there, otherwise in fine shape, that need to
address this problem. SInce I have already shown my suggestions to be
subject, perhaps no one will take this next one seriously. But if it
were me, and I needed to get the spar mod done again, I would properly
engineer a sound doubler for the horizontal spar and take the guessing
out of the game.
Barry
Off to fly the 680 hp, twin bug smasher...I'll be back online on
Wednesday. Hey, there not round, but they do have augmenter tubes!
RRRRRRROOOOOOOOOAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Horz. spar mod |
Where should I look to see if my spar is cracked? Is there a particular
location prone to cracking?
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry W. Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Horz. spar mod
>
> Well, since it's foot-in-mouth-week, I thought I'd join in on my screw
> up. Several months back I was in a Nike frame of mind and suggested
> that if you didn't have the horz. spar mod (SS doubler) installed on
> your aircraft to consider it, or "just do it" is what I believe I said.
>
> I was roundly chastised and, upon further investigation, rightly so.
> Not that the Stainless 050 doubler is going to kill anybody, but it is
> NOT the way to go. As Doug Sapp mentioned, however, it is what's
> currently available if you have a crack in your horizontal.
>
> After speaking with a DER and some other "metal guys" there are two big
> problems with the mod. First, it is a dissimilar metal that is not only
> thicker, but stronger than the metal in the airplane. This will serve
> to push the flex points away from their originally designed places that,
> while most likely sufficient (especially for the flying that 98% of us
> do in these airplanes), was not engineered for this.
>
> The second problem lies in the hardware. You are increasing the hole
> diameters in the spar because the mod calls for larger *standard*
> attachment hardware. I have been told this violates tolerances - which
> I don't recall how to describe
>
> So, what does all this mean? Well, in further talking with the DER and
> the "metal guys" they do not think the mod is dangerous. They do
> however wonder aloud how long the mod will last before stress cracks
> start showing up at the end of the stronger, untapered, dissimilar metal
> doubler.
>
> Yes, there are aircraft out there that will never need the mod. No, you
> should not put the mod on a "good" spar as a preventative measure. But
> there are also aircraft out there, otherwise in fine shape, that need to
> address this problem. SInce I have already shown my suggestions to be
> subject, perhaps no one will take this next one seriously. But if it
> were me, and I needed to get the spar mod done again, I would properly
> engineer a sound doubler for the horizontal spar and take the guessing
> out of the game.
>
> Barry
>
> Off to fly the 680 hp, twin bug smasher...I'll be back online on
> Wednesday. Hey, there not round, but they do have augmenter tubes!
>
RRRRRRROOOOOOOOOAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | VDesi10492(at)aol.com |
Hi guys
I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with 25w60
instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr mp14 and
during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the cowling
would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil temp would
run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only 65 to 70%.
I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of the engine, no
streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude, power setting
and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine compartment is a
drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
This was my experience with this stuff
Dave DeSimone
vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | One of those days-------- |
My apologies to everyone on the list, my last post was not for the list
and I still don't know how I did that.
Walt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Champion REL 37B |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Champion REL 37B
>
> Sir, Will any of the Chinese fit M14P? Thanks, Rick
The Chinese and Russian spark plugs are externally physically identical. In
all probability the heat range is also identical. This is not a given and
should be confirmed by examining samples of both plugs. A much better chance
of a match I would think than a Champion plug manufactured for the Franklin
engine. In addition you don't have to mess with the harness attachment.
Walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the 25W-60,
since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the 100W.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips 25W-60?
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> Hi guys
>
> I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with 25w60
> instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr mp14 and
> during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the cowling
> would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil temp
would
> run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only 65 to
70%.
> I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of the engine,
no
> streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude, power setting
> and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine compartment is
a
> drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
>
> This was my experience with this stuff
>
> Dave DeSimone
> vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Dycus" <dycusr(at)hotmail.com> |
Al, Bill, and Ron and I are back in Chicago from Columbus. Those who
went universally had an excellent time, Keith put on a class act fly-in.
I need to know from the leads the times from the Wednesday flights and
who was in what positions. Also, if you have one of the sheets that I
gave you on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, please send me the time for
that flight and it's number (top of the form). Once I have all the
times recorded in the spreadsheet then I will post to the list of
flights and times.
I had an excellent time and am looking forward to MTW.
Russ "The Airboss" Dycus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie" <ernie(at)gscinc.com> |
I use the 25W60 in my Husai and my engine compartment and wing roots are
usually oily, and the belly is a mess.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the 25W-60,
> since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the 100W.
> Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips 25W-60?
> Dennis Savarese
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi guys
> >
> > I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with 25w60
> > instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr mp14 and
> > during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the cowling
> > would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil temp
> would
> > run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only 65 to
> 70%.
> > I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of the
engine,
> no
> > streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude, power
setting
> > and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine compartment
is
> a
> > drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
> >
> > This was my experience with this stuff
> >
> > Dave DeSimone
> > vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
Hi Dave;
I'm really suprised to year that, particularly the increase in oil
temperature. 25w60 should be at least equivalent in leakage characteristics
to 100W since it's high end viscosity is higher ( SAE 60 or 120 SUS ). We
don't seem to have the same problems with the Huosai or Pratt&Whitney
radials. Don't know what to suggest except that if you are in an area where
winter temperatures are warm enough 100 ( preferably 100W )
is fine.
You didn't by any chance use Phillips 20W50 instead of 25W60. I would
expect to see those symptoms with that.
Walt Lannon
----- Original Message -----
From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> Hi guys
>
> I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with 25w60
> instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr mp14 and
> during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the cowling
> would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil temp
would
> run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only 65 to
70%.
> I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of the engine,
no
> streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude, power setting
> and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine compartment is
a
> drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
>
> This was my experience with this stuff
>
> Dave DeSimone
> vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Payne <cpayne(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Of Sparks and Mags and Plugs.... |
A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
>
> According to the M14 Manual, the static timing (dwell) is set to 13-16
> degrees BTC. IAW the manual engine timing is 23 degrees BTDC. In the
> manual, they call it "advance angle for LH and RH magneto (before TDC at end
> of compression stroke). The timing must be fixed because if one attempts to
> rotate the rotor with the cover and cap off, it is stationery and does not
> move. Thus it's my belief there is no centrifugal advance.
> Dennis Savarese
Dennis,
The M9F (or fixed) does NOT have advance but there are at least two
other mag types that can be found on various M14 engines, the "B" and
"P" series, that is, and they have centrifugal advance.
I have the 1965 CJ model that has the "Hot mag" wiring" required for
starting. For the last 125 hours, my M14P has run very well, and
smoothly on Chinese 25 degree mags, Chinese spark plugs, and the Chinese
booster coil. I should also add the words "Powerfully" AND "efficient"
as I get the same OR LESS fuel burn as the 285 in formation flight.
Right at about 11.5 to 12.5 GPH. My engine is at about 45% to 70% for
most of a typical training routine. The only real problem is getting too
far down on the power and cooling the engine and then needing a big
burst of power; it hesitates and coughs if you don'yt advance RPMs a
little first.
BTW, Vladimir gave us a really good talk and his viewpoints on Yak/CJ
maintenance at OLU. Especially the part about what procedures and rules
the Russians use for servicing the M14P engine.
Craig Payne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wes Warner <wes(at)lppcs.com> |
| Subject: | Talks at allredstar |
Did anyone happen to record any of the talks that went on at
allredstar?
Thanks,
Wes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjpilot710(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Horz. spar mod |
In a message dated 6/9/02 11:57:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ernie(at)gscinc.com
writes:
>
> Where should I look to see if my spar is cracked? Is there a particular
> location prone to cracking?
>
> Ernie
Take off one fairing at the base of the vertical stabilizer. Check around
the hole that is in the front spar web of the horizontal stabilizer. One of
the control cables for the elevator runs though the hole. This is where the
cracks happen. Takes 5 minutes to check and 3 days to repair.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjpilot710(at)aol.com |
Arrived back home at 1930 HR.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Of Sparks and Mags and Plugs.... |
I'm referring to the M9F magneto Craig, which is the mag referred to in the
M14P maintenance manual. Point gag is .010 - .014 (.25-.35mm).
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <cpayne(at)mc.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Of Sparks and Mags and Plugs....
>
> A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> >
> >
> > According to the M14 Manual, the static timing (dwell) is set to 13-16
> > degrees BTC. IAW the manual engine timing is 23 degrees BTDC. In the
> > manual, they call it "advance angle for LH and RH magneto (before TDC at
end
> > of compression stroke). The timing must be fixed because if one
attempts to
> > rotate the rotor with the cover and cap off, it is stationery and does
not
> > move. Thus it's my belief there is no centrifugal advance.
> > Dennis Savarese
>
> Dennis,
>
> The M9F (or fixed) does NOT have advance but there are at least two
> other mag types that can be found on various M14 engines, the "B" and
> "P" series, that is, and they have centrifugal advance.
>
> I have the 1965 CJ model that has the "Hot mag" wiring" required for
> starting. For the last 125 hours, my M14P has run very well, and
> smoothly on Chinese 25 degree mags, Chinese spark plugs, and the Chinese
> booster coil. I should also add the words "Powerfully" AND "efficient"
> as I get the same OR LESS fuel burn as the 285 in formation flight.
> Right at about 11.5 to 12.5 GPH. My engine is at about 45% to 70% for
> most of a typical training routine. The only real problem is getting too
> far down on the power and cooling the engine and then needing a big
> burst of power; it hesitates and coughs if you don'yt advance RPMs a
> little first.
>
>
> BTW, Vladimir gave us a really good talk and his viewpoints on Yak/CJ
> maintenance at OLU. Especially the part about what procedures and rules
> the Russians use for servicing the M14P engine.
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
> Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak 50
> or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the stock
> shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy install
> and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using the
> iris system?
>
>
> Francis Butler
Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JB" <n1192y(at)interisland.net> |
Bought a Yakity CJ with uprated tach in front seat but standard tach in back seat.
Harness from portside engine thru firewall is hanging inside and I would suspect
loose harness on starboard side behind front panel is there as well. any
ideas how to recouple GIB tach into existing lead harness? Is it possible or
wise? Jack Coe N6097G Orcas island, WA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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjpilot710(at)aol.com |
PaulSanden(at)aol.com, Ruthcopes(at)aol.com, artziggy6(at)yahoo.com,
carriesuerowe(at)yahoo.com, paulbeth.mullen(at)worldnet.att.net,
wildf15c(at)hotmail.com, ddenham7(at)home.com, wpairprt(at)tdstelme.net,
garvey(at)attbi.com, pino1(at)compuserve.com, RAre406906(at)aol.com,
Sevendips(at)aol.com, CEParaiso(at)aol.com, Inetnovice(at)aol.com,
JGoolsby(at)umaryland.edu, keith.goolsby(at)eds.com, moreira_thais(at)hotmail.com,
vicky(at)shippei.com, WINDSURFE(at)aol.com, paraisoam(at)surfbest.net,
EdrisDee(at)aol.com, Ckelso17(at)earthlink.net
Friends
I'll be leaving for Brazil tomorrow for a week to visit Number 2 grandson.
Not much chance of getting near a computer so please know I not avoiding
yawl.
Take care.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjpilot710(at)aol.com |
Formations seen at OLU!
+
+ +
+ + +
+ + + +
+ + +
and
+
+ +
+
+ +
+ + + + +
+ +
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjpilot710(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: tentative schedule for MTW/OSH |
In a message dated 6/10/02 1:34:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cjpilot710
writes:
>
> Troops,
>
> Below is a tentative abbreviated schedule for MTW/OSH
>
> July 20, 0800 start of Formation ground school at MTW
>
> July 21, 0800 Formation training & check rides at MTW
> 1300 WB registration opens at OSH
>
> July 22. 0800 Formation training & check rides at MTW
> 1800 WB Picnic at OSH
>
> July 23, 0800 Formation Training & check rides at MTW
> 0900 WB judging begins at OSH
> TBD First flight to OSH
>
> July 24, 1130 Airshow Briefing at OSH
> TBD WB airshow
>
> July 25, 0700 F. A. S. T. Board Meeting at FLD
> 0800 Check pilots standards meeting at FLD
> 0900 WB forums FLD
> WB Jets only show
> 1800 WB cookout at Holiday Inn at FLD
> 2000 WB annual meeting at FLD
>
> July 26, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
> 1515-1530 Preshow launch
> 1545-1645 WB airshow
>
> July 27, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
> 1515-1530 Preshow launch
> 1545-1645 WB airshow
>
> July 28, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
> 115-1530 Preshow launch
> 1545-1645 WB airshow.
>
> July 29 We're outer here!
>
> The idea here is that we return to MTW at the end of each days activities
> (like S&F). Like S&F if some of you wish to stay at OSH, you can and still
>
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:34:09 EDT
Subject: tentative schedule for MTW/OSH
aircare(at)cminet.net, jackron(at)att.net, CJ6driver(at)hotmail.com,
rufltd(at)televar.com, Skipsly(at)aol.com, MDSHELLEY(at)aol.com, EyeBLS(at)aol.com,
patrick(at)designworx.com, schrick(at)pacbell.net, cd001633(at)mindspring.com,
Ssalibi(at)aol.com, cbreed(at)carolina.rr.com, AIRRAP(at)aol.com,
popesickel(at)mindspring.com, N4829T(at)aol.com, cpayne(at)mc.net,
yakjock(at)msn.com, amoman(at)earthlink.net, mike(at)aircraftsales.com,
billm(at)phoenixintl.com, brain(at)lloyd.com, linedog(at)peoplepc.com,
fknoll(at)hotmail.com, apt(at)unidial.com, gbasjo(at)earthlink.net,
jim(at)jimivey.com, ATPCFIMD(at)aol.com, yakpilot(at)earthlink.net,
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net, wfricke(at)mediaone.net, MFilucci(at)aol.com,
ceiroa(at)worldnet.att.net, dycusr(at)hotmail.com, orthopilot(at)msn.com,
JetPi9949(at)aol.com, dabear(at)damned.org, redyak52(at)compuserve.com,
PaulCJ6(at)aol.com, mwcorcoran(at)compuserve.com, JJCoppage(at)compuserve.com,
DAndMFLYAZ(at)aol.com, nanchang(at)earthlink.net, rvfltd(at)televar.com,
blaups(at)juno.com, Art79(at)pacbell.net, KingCJ6(at)aol.com, JJEJR(at)aol.com,
Desmor944(at)aol.com, YakL1(at)aol.com, tcalloway(at)datatechnique.com,
gbvfx(at)hotmail.com, paulcfitzgerald(at)attbi.com, Emu21(at)aol.com,
markally(at)gwi.net, cj6pilot(at)hotmail.com, vinnietirado(at)netzero.net,
avcraft(at)megavision.com, mgdimarco(at)yahoo.com, n1192y(at)interisland.net,
sstires(at)midsouth.rr.com, rmodg(at)hotmail.com, RLang27641(at)aol.com,
deegrimm(at)cox.net, lannon(at)look.ca, sales(at)metro-quip.com
Troops,
Below is a tentative abbreviated schedule for MTW/OSH
July 20, 0800 start of Formation ground school at MTW
July 21, 0800 Formation training & check rides at MTW
1300 WB registration opens at OSH
July 22. 0800 Formation training & check rides at MTW
1800 WB Picnic at OSH
July 23, 0800 Formation Training & check rides at MTW
0900 WB judging begins at OSH
TBD First flight to OSH
July 24, 1130 Airshow Briefing at OSH
TBD WB airshow
July 25, 0700 F. A. S. T. Board Meeting at FLD
0800 Check pilots standards meeting at FLD
0900 WB forums FLD
WB Jets only show
1800 WB cookout at Holiday Inn at FLD
2000 WB annual meeting at FLD
July 26, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
1515-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow
July 27, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
1515-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow
July 28, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
115-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow.
July 29 We're outer here!
The idea here is that we return to MTW at the end of each days activities
(like S&F). Like S&F if some of you wish to stay at OSH, you can and still
be part of the show and our actives.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All
collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Troops,
Below is a tentative abbreviated schedule for MTW/OSH
July 20, 0800 start of Formation ground school at MTW
July 21, 0800 Formation training check rides at MTW
1300 WB registration opens at OSH
July 22. 0800 Formation training check rides at MTW
1800 WB Picnic at OSH
July 23, 0800 Formation Training check rides at MTW
0900 WB judging begins at OSH
TBD First flight to OSH
July 24, 1130 Airshow Briefing at OSH
TBD WB airshow
July 25, 0700 F. A. S. T. Board Meeting at FLD
0800 Check pilots standards meeting at FLD
0900 WB forums FLD
WB Jets only show
1800 WB cookout at Holiday Inn at FLD
2000 WB annual meeting at FLD
July 26, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
1515-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow
July 27, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
1515-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow
July 28, 1130-1230 WB Airshow Briefings at OSH
115-1530 Preshow launch
1545-1645 WB airshow.
July 29 We're outer here!
The idea here is that we return to MTW at the end of each days activities (like
SF). Like SF if some of you wish to stay at OSH, you can and still be part of
the show and our actives.
Jim Goolsby
cjpilot710(at)aol.com
386-467-3313 voice
386-467-3193 fax
386-569-7060 cell "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"There is no "innocence" in war. All collateral damage
is acceptable."
unk.
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway(at)datatechnique.com> |
Which one is the Yak 52?
Any way you draw it, Craig Payne is still sucked! :<))
tc
>>> cjpilot710(at)aol.com 06/10/02 01:07PM >>>
Formations seen at OLU!
+
+ +
+ + +
+ + + +
+ + +
and
+
+ +
+
+ +
+ + + + +
+ +
Jim Goolsby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iris for M14P |
Francis,
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and both
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill type
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary to
overhaul yours.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
<FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
>
>
> > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
50
> > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
stock
> > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
install
> > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using the
> > iris system?
> >
> >
> > Francis Butler
> Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ivey <jim(at)jimivey.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iris for M14P |
I have heard the same thing about the iris system. Bill Blackwell has
some experience with them on CJ's with M14P's and says they are a "no
go" nightmare. Bill did say that he thinks the Yak 55 gills are the
best, especially if you want a spinner.
Jim
Doug wrote:
>
>Francis,
>The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and both
>went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill type
>now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary to
>overhaul yours.
>
>Always Yakin,
>Doug Sapp
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
>To:
>Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>>
><FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
>
>>
>>> Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
>>>
>50
>
>>>or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
>>>
>stock
>
>>>shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
>>>
>install
>
>>>and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using the
>>>iris system?
>>>
>>>
>>> Francis Butler
>>>
>> Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com> |
Doug,
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
John Coffey
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
Francis,
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and both
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill type
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary to
overhaul yours.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
<FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
>
>
> > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
50
> > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
stock
> > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
install
> > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using the
> > iris system?
> >
> >
> > Francis Butler
> Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
>
>
RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
Doug,
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
fall apart.
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
set?
John Coffey
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug [<A
HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
rvfltd(at)televar.com
Francis,
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
installed on CJ's and both
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
you have the standard gill type
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
get you the parts necessary to
overhaul yours.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
FRANCIS
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
Anyone out there
using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
50
or other Yak type? I need to
either rework my center rings on the
stock
shutter system or I am considering the
Sukoi iris if it is an easy
install
and is available. Any out there with
experience in mounting / using the
iris system?
Francis
Butler
Yak 50's N612BM
N17FS
http://www.matronics.com/subscription
Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
List: http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list
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Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
http://www.matronics.com/
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iris for M14P |
I have sold Bill quite a few Yak 18T shutters in the past, all have worked
out well and most all are wearing spinners, both Yak and MT. The Yak 55 has
a good system but is very hard to find and is even harder to get parts for.
Always yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ivey" <jim(at)jimivey.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> I have heard the same thing about the iris system. Bill Blackwell has
> some experience with them on CJ's with M14P's and says they are a "no
> go" nightmare. Bill did say that he thinks the Yak 55 gills are the
> best, especially if you want a spinner.
>
> Jim
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> >
> >Francis,
> >The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
both
> >went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
type
> >now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
to
> >overhaul yours.
> >
> >Always Yakin,
> >Doug Sapp
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> >To:
> >Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >>
> ><FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> >
> >>
> >>> Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
Yak
> >>>
> >50
> >
> >>>or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> >>>
> >stock
> >
> >>>shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> >>>
> >install
> >
> >>>and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
the
> >>>iris system?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Francis Butler
> >>>
> >> Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael DiMarco <mgdimarco(at)yahoo.com> |
My experience with a CJ6/Housai engine is exactly the opposite.
Mike
--- "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote:
>
>
> Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the
> 25W-60,
> since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the
> 100W.
> Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips
> 25W-60?
> Dennis Savarese
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi guys
> >
> > I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with
> 25w60
> > instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr
> mp14 and
> > during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the
> cowling
> > would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil
> temp
> would
> > run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only
> 65 to
> 70%.
> > I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of
> the engine,
> no
> > streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude,
> power setting
> > and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine
> compartment is
> a
> > drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
> >
> > This was my experience with this stuff
> >
> > Dave DeSimone
> > vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> messages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iris for M14P |
John,
The Yak 55 is really rather exotic and there are very few here in the US, my
guy in Russia tells me that 55 parts are extremely hard to get. If that is
not enough reason the consider that the iris "lens" are constantly vibrating
against one another, in just a few hours they start weeping the gray goo
that is typical of two pieces of alu rubbing against each other. In short
order they simply eat themselves up. It was a good idea, kinda cool looking
also, but the plain old gills ala Yak 18A, 18T, CJ6, Cj6A seem to do the job
real well and last a lot longer. By the way this is not a sales job as I am
out of Shutter assys right now and will not have any more until August.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> Doug,
> Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
> counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
>
> Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
> John Coffey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> Francis,
> The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
both
> went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
type
> now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
to
> overhaul yours.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> To:
> Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> >
> >
> > > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
Yak
> 50
> > > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> stock
> > > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> install
> > > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
the
> > > iris system?
> > >
> > >
> > > Francis Butler
> > Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.5.2654.89">
> RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
Doug,
>
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
> a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
> fall apart.
>
>
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
> set?
>
John Coffey
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: Doug [<A
> HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]>
>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
> rvfltd(at)televar.com
>
>
>
Francis,
>
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
> installed on CJ's and both
>
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
> you have the standard gill type
>
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
> get you the parts necessary to
>
overhaul yours.
>
>
>
Always Yakin,
>
Doug Sapp
>
----- Original Message -----
>
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
> FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
> FRANCIS
>
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
>
>
> Anyone out there
> using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
>
50
>
or other Yak type? I need to
> either rework my center rings on the
>
stock
>
shutter system or I am considering the
> Sukoi iris if it is an easy
>
install
>
and is available. Any out there with
> experience in mounting / using the
>
iris system?
>
>
>
> Francis
> Butler
>
SIZE2> Yak 50's N612BM
> N17FS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
p; - The Yak-List Email Forum
> -
> through the Contributions of
> see banner ads or any other form
> Matronics Forums.
>
>
>
> browser to view the latest messages.
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>
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>
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
Hi
I am unable to access the search engine or any of the matronics list on
the bottom of this message.
Did my computer go T.U. or is the list down? Does any one else have this
problem?
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com> |
Doug,
Thanks for the interesting information, but can you explain why I see so
many 300hr Sukhois at aerobatic contests all over the west with irises that
show no apparent wear? I'm puzzled.
How much does a set of Yak-55m gills go for?
How much does a Sukhoi iris go for?
Thanks again!
jc
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
John,
The Yak 55 is really rather exotic and there are very few here in the US, my
guy in Russia tells me that 55 parts are extremely hard to get. If that is
not enough reason the consider that the iris "lens" are constantly vibrating
against one another, in just a few hours they start weeping the gray goo
that is typical of two pieces of alu rubbing against each other. In short
order they simply eat themselves up. It was a good idea, kinda cool looking
also, but the plain old gills ala Yak 18A, 18T, CJ6, Cj6A seem to do the job
real well and last a lot longer. By the way this is not a sales job as I am
out of Shutter assys right now and will not have any more until August.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> Doug,
> Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
> counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
>
> Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
> John Coffey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> Francis,
> The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
both
> went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
type
> now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
to
> overhaul yours.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> To:
> Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> >
> >
> > > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
Yak
> 50
> > > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> stock
> > > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> install
> > > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
the
> > > iris system?
> > >
> > >
> > > Francis Butler
> > Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.5.2654.89">
> RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
Doug,
>
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
> a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
> fall apart.
>
>
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
> set?
>
John Coffey
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: Doug [<A
> HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]>
>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
> rvfltd(at)televar.com
>
>
>
Francis,
>
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
> installed on CJ's and both
>
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
> you have the standard gill type
>
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
> get you the parts necessary to
>
overhaul yours.
>
>
>
Always Yakin,
>
Doug Sapp
>
----- Original Message -----
>
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
> FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
> FRANCIS
>
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
>
>
> Anyone out there
> using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
>
50
>
or other Yak type? I need to
> either rework my center rings on the
>
stock
>
shutter system or I am considering the
> Sukoi iris if it is an easy
>
install
>
and is available. Any out there with
> experience in mounting / using the
>
iris system?
>
>
>
> Francis
> Butler
>
SIZE2> Yak 50's N612BM
> N17FS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
p; - The Yak-List Email Forum
> -
> through the Contributions of
> see banner ads or any other form
> Matronics Forums.
>
>
>
> browser to view the latest messages.
> and files with other List members.
>
>
>
> Message: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> UN/SUBSCRIBE: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> Share: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> List: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list >
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/search
> Archives: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/archives"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/archives
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/yak-list
> Lists: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> Matronics: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iris for M14P |
John,
I cant answer that question, in fact I have no knowledge about where you
could even start looking for a iris system other than in Russia or Latvia.
My guy (in Latvia) has already told me that he could not supply me with the
iris system. You might try Geo Coy or Carl Hayes. I sell the Yak 18T gills
(new) for $1250 for the complete assy.
Always Yakin,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> Doug,
> Thanks for the interesting information, but can you explain why I see so
> many 300hr Sukhois at aerobatic contests all over the west with irises
that
> show no apparent wear? I'm puzzled.
>
> How much does a set of Yak-55m gills go for?
> How much does a Sukhoi iris go for?
>
> Thanks again!
> jc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> John,
> The Yak 55 is really rather exotic and there are very few here in the US,
my
> guy in Russia tells me that 55 parts are extremely hard to get. If that
is
> not enough reason the consider that the iris "lens" are constantly
vibrating
> against one another, in just a few hours they start weeping the gray goo
> that is typical of two pieces of alu rubbing against each other. In short
> order they simply eat themselves up. It was a good idea, kinda cool
looking
> also, but the plain old gills ala Yak 18A, 18T, CJ6, Cj6A seem to do the
job
> real well and last a lot longer. By the way this is not a sales job as I
am
> out of Shutter assys right now and will not have any more until August.
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> >
> > Doug,
> > Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
> > counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
> >
> > Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
> > John Coffey
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> > Francis,
> > The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
> both
> > went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
> type
> > now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
> to
> > overhaul yours.
> >
> > Always Yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> > <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
> Yak
> > 50
> > > > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> > stock
> > > > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> > install
> > > > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
> the
> > > > iris system?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Francis Butler
> > > Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 5.5.2654.89">
> > RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
Doug,
> >
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
> > a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
> > fall apart.
> >
> >
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
> > set?
> >
John Coffey
> >
> >
> >
-----Original Message-----
> >
From: Doug [<A
> > HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]> >
> >
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
> >
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> >
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
> > rvfltd(at)televar.com
> >
> >
> >
Francis,
> >
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
> > installed on CJ's and both
> >
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
> > you have the standard gill type
> >
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
> > get you the parts necessary to
> >
overhaul yours.
> >
> >
> >
Always Yakin,
> >
Doug Sapp
> >
----- Original Message -----
> >
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
> > FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
> >
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> >
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
> > FRANCIS
> >
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone out there
> > using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
> >
50
> >
or other Yak type? I need to
> > either rework my center rings on the
> >
stock
> >
shutter system or I am considering the
> > Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> >
install
> >
and is available. Any out there with
> > experience in mounting / using the
> >
iris system?
> >
> >
> >
> > Francis
> > Butler
> >
> SIZE2> Yak 50's N612BM
> > N17FS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> p; - The Yak-List Email Forum
> > -
> > through the Contributions of
> > see banner ads or any other form
> > Matronics Forums.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > browser to view the latest messages.
> > and files with other List members.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > Message: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> > UN/SUBSCRIBE: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > Share: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > List: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list > >
> > > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/search
> > Archives: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/archives"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/yak-list
> > Lists: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > Matronics: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
Just tried it - down for me too. Your computer is OK
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Yak-List: list
>
> Hi
> I am unable to access the search engine or any of the matronics list on
> the bottom of this message.
> Did my computer go T.U. or is the list down? Does any one else have this
> problem?
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: list
>
> Just tried it - down for me too. Your computer is OK
Thanks Walt.
I'll try again tomorrow.
If you don't mind I am going to have another CG question as soon as I do a
couple of more measurments. I think I got a problem.
Have you ever jacked a plane with properly computed weight in the tail and
had the nose come up first ?
Terry
Terry
> Walt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
> To:
> Subject: Yak-List: list
>
>
> >
> > Hi
> > I am unable to access the search engine or any of the matronics list on
> > the bottom of this message.
> > Did my computer go T.U. or is the list down? Does any one else have this
> > problem?
> > Terry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob & Nancy Fitzpatrick <fitz(at)colint.com> |
When the cam went on the 0-540 in our Dakota the engine shop thanked me for
using AS15-50, said it gave them a lot of business. In the midwest we tend
to have our planes sit more than some people (winter is a good example). My
understanding is that the multi's are synthetic and behave well in a busy
engine but don't stick to the parts as well as the old petrol products if
the plane sits very long. Another interesting comment from the shop : "I
can't believe how many people think multi-grades get thicker when they get
hotter". They don't. I use AS120 summer and AS100winter in the M14 and
can't complain about weeping.
I DO have a problem with belching oil from the breather tube when inverted.
A minutes worth of negative will have oil running off the back of the wing
and onto the tail. I've flown as low as 9.5l in the tank and it still
throws it out. Is that normal?
bob
(Boris)
>
>My experience with a CJ6/Housai engine is exactly the opposite.
>
>Mike
>
>--- "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the
> > 25W-60,
> > since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the
> > 100W.
> > Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips
> > 25W-60?
> > Dennis Savarese
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with
> > 25w60
> > > instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr
> > mp14 and
> > > during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the
> > cowling
> > > would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil
> > temp
> > would
> > > run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only
> > 65 to
> > 70%.
> > > I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of
> > the engine,
> > no
> > > streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude,
> > power setting
> > > and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine
> > compartment is
> > a
> > > drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
> > >
> > > This was my experience with this stuff
> > >
> > > Dave DeSimone
> > > vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > messages.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe the Phillips 25W-60 is a mineral based oil
and not synthetic. If it were synthetic, you wouldn't be able to buy it for
$30.34 for 4 - 1 gallon jugs (less than $2/QT). A case of quarts is around
$23. Still under $2/QT. Plus shipping of course. Compare that to AS15W-50
quart prices.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob & Nancy Fitzpatrick" <fitz(at)colint.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> When the cam went on the 0-540 in our Dakota the engine shop thanked me
for
> using AS15-50, said it gave them a lot of business. In the midwest we tend
> to have our planes sit more than some people (winter is a good example).
My
> understanding is that the multi's are synthetic and behave well in a busy
> engine but don't stick to the parts as well as the old petrol products if
> the plane sits very long. Another interesting comment from the shop : "I
> can't believe how many people think multi-grades get thicker when they get
> hotter". They don't. I use AS120 summer and AS100winter in the M14 and
> can't complain about weeping.
> I DO have a problem with belching oil from the breather tube when
inverted.
> A minutes worth of negative will have oil running off the back of the wing
> and onto the tail. I've flown as low as 9.5l in the tank and it still
> throws it out. Is that normal?
> bob
> (Boris)
>
>
> >
> >My experience with a CJ6/Housai engine is exactly the opposite.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >--- "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the
> > > 25W-60,
> > > since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the
> > > 100W.
> > > Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips
> > > 25W-60?
> > > Dennis Savarese
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys
> > > >
> > > > I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with
> > > 25w60
> > > > instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr
> > > mp14 and
> > > > during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the
> > > cowling
> > > > would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil
> > > temp
> > > would
> > > > run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only
> > > 65 to
> > > 70%.
> > > > I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of
> > > the engine,
> > > no
> > > > streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude,
> > > power setting
> > > > and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine
> > > compartment is
> > > a
> > > > drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
> > > >
> > > > This was my experience with this stuff
> > > >
> > > > Dave DeSimone
> > > > vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > messages.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Sorry about that, guys... I upgraded the webserver code this weekend and
it seems to have a 'crashing' problem now. I've got my eye on it. Should
be working fine now.
Matt
At 05:41 PM 6/10/2002 Monday, you wrote:
>
>Hi
>I am unable to access the search engine or any of the matronics list on
>the bottom of this message.
>Did my computer go T.U. or is the list down? Does any one else have this
>problem?
>Terry
>
>
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
Hi Terry;
Presume you are jacking the CJ? Yes, the nose wheel comes off the floor
ahead of the mains but the tail is fixed in place by the tail stand. Even
without the tail stand the nose will likely be up first as the jack pads are
ahead of the mains, but this could be a dicey operation.
Do you have a set of Chinese jacks. If not you need an adjustable tail stand
with provision to attach at least 150 lbs for safety.
Once you place the scales, transfer the load to the wheels and level the A/C
with main wheel blocking the tail stand load will have been adjusted to
zero. Just make sure it is and get your weight and arms.
Best;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: list
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: list
>
>
> >
> > Just tried it - down for me too. Your computer is OK
>
> Thanks Walt.
> I'll try again tomorrow.
> If you don't mind I am going to have another CG question as soon as I do
a
> couple of more measurments. I think I got a problem.
> Have you ever jacked a plane with properly computed weight in the tail and
> had the nose come up first ?
> Terry
> Terry
>
>
> > Walt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Yak-List: list
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > I am unable to access the search engine or any of the matronics list
on
> > > the bottom of this message.
> > > Did my computer go T.U. or is the list down? Does any one else have
this
> > > problem?
> > > Terry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hal Morley" <yakjock(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Back Home from OLU |
Buck and I left OLU at 0720 Sunday and fought headwinds to Wyoming and
then weather in Utah and Idaho. Couldn't get under it due to snow
showers, low clouds and high hills; went up to 13,500 and still couldn't
get over it. Tried to go around it through Salt Lake City and got
stopped in a small valley so landed at a glider strip and spent an hour
with a very nice guy who ran the place. Weather finally cleared enough
to follow the road into Caldwell, ID where Buck's plane was. On landing
we took 62 gallons with 4 hours and 25 minutes on the meter.
Buck was able to get home last night after 14 hours or so on the road.
I had to wait until this morning, landed back at Aurora State in Oregon
at 1 PM. For the five and a half day trip I logged 3,551 miles in 29.7
hours. Average ground speed was 119 knots, the maximum was 243 knots!
As always, I really enjoyed the company at Columbus and look forward to
seeing many of you at Manitowoc.
Hal Morley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: 3rd attempt |
>
>I AM BLOODY STUPID !!
Well, I wouldn't go that far ...
>Brian and all other Listers monitoring Brian and my recent exchange
>PLEASE IGNORE MY CRASS MISTAKE !
>
>The priming injectors are of course NOT plumbed into the '52 cylinder
>heads, its only the YAK 11 that has both priming injectors and air
>injectors plumbed directly into the heads ! It was that 7 cylinder ASh
>engines cylinder head I was visualising as I made my last post ! That's
>my best excuse an I'm sticking to it !
>
>Brian is quite correct in assuming that the lower cylinders will be
>favoured during priming. (unless you pull through very fast indeed).
>
>I rushed the posting to leave work on time and I've suffered 2 hours of
>email access denial in my journey home fuming at myself! Only 30
>seconds after shutting down my work computer it dawned on me I'd boobed.
>I even had to bribe the kids to use this email access.
Don't kick yourself too hard. It will be awhile before you make as many
mistakes on this list as I have.
>It was a case of 'thumb up bum, brain in neutral' I UNRESERVEDLY
>APOLOGISE TO BRIAN AND LISTERS FOR THE GAFF. On this occasion and point
>Brian was 100% right and I was 100% wrong.
>Its one thing to make a mistake but to make it to a world wide audience
>of enlightened Listers is a really humiliating experience. Doh !
Oh, don't worry too much. Eventually you just get used to it. I have. :
)
>While we are on the subject and to be pedantic maybe It could have been
>more scientific if I described wetting as giving a larger evaporation
>surface of fuel to initiate a combustible mixture. That's 20-20
>hindsight.
The greater the surface area the sooner it will reach equilibrium so I will
go along with that.
>HOWEVER I STAND BY MY ORIGINAL POSTING AS A METHOD STATEMENT.
>
>I am sure by now the daytime listers are having a field day at my
>expense. I'm fortunate to not have access at home and will only get to
>read the live list UK daytime Fri/Sat. In fact I'll probably delete it
>unread to avoid the embarrassment.
If you like, I will be embarrassed for you. How's that!
>Now if all you weight and balance addicts could get back on the subject
>it will draw the attention away from me. Please.
It's not that bad. Really! We still like you.
>Yours
>kp
>(likely to be quiet for some long while)
You will get over it. I have.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 03:59 PM 6/9/2002, you wrote:
>
> You didn't by any chance use Phillips 20W50 instead of 25W60. I would
>expect to see those symptoms with that.
I ran 20W50 in my Huosai for about 500 hours until I found 25W60 in a
convenient package. Nary a problem with that.
You know, if oil leaves the engine from undesired places, it may mean that
something needs to be fixed.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 08:20 PM 6/10/2002, you wrote:
>
>When the cam went on the 0-540 in our Dakota the engine shop thanked me for
>using AS15-50, said it gave them a lot of business. In the midwest we tend
>to have our planes sit more than some people (winter is a good example). My
>understanding is that the multi's are synthetic and behave well in a busy
>engine but don't stick to the parts as well as the old petrol products if
>the plane sits very long.
It depends. Most synthetics are supposed to be formulated to have higher
metal affinity than pure mineral oils. That means they stick longer. But
after a week or two, even the synthetics drain down and leave the metal
unprotected. Still, they stick longer than mineral oils.
Want your engine to go the distance? Run it every day. If they sit, they rot.
>Another interesting comment from the shop : "I
>can't believe how many people think multi-grades get thicker when they get
>hotter". They don't.
Of course not. They just don't get as thin as fast as straight-weight
oils. For instance, 25W60 means that at the low temp range it flows like a
25W (AS50 if such a thing existed) oil and at the high temperature range it
flows like a 60W (AS120) oil. Of course, as the temp goes up the viscosity
never exceeds its viscosity while cold. The viscosity is just more uniform
from cold to hot.
>I use AS120 summer and AS100winter in the M14 and
>can't complain about weeping.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 08:47 PM 6/10/2002, you wrote:
>
>Unless I'm mistaken, I believe the Phillips 25W-60 is a mineral based oil
>and not synthetic.
That is correct. It is a 100% mineral-base oil with a viscosity stabilizer.
>If it were synthetic, you wouldn't be able to buy it for
>$30.34 for 4 - 1 gallon jugs (less than $2/QT). A case of quarts is around
>$23. Still under $2/QT. Plus shipping of course. Compare that to AS15W-50
>quart prices.
Nasty stuff, that.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike McCoy" <mike(at)aircraftsales.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GIB Tach wiring |
Hi Jack,
It's been a while since I have talked to you. I hope that means that you're
getting in a lot of trouble free flying.
In answer to your question, if you have the digital tach in front, you
probably can not replace the tach in back without a great deal of work and
expense. As I recall, you do have the digital tach in front. We only
install those if the original tach system is badly broken, which usually
means that the tach drive at the engine is screwed up. If this is the
case, then the aft tach can not be simply re-connected. You would have to
fix the original problem which could be a major project. The tach in the
back should be placarded "INOP".
If you have the digital tach, it is normally located in the upper right
quadrant of the instrument panel and is visible from the aft cockpit.
Please feel free to e-mail if you have any further questions.
Mike McCoy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
I would definitely agree with that statement... "You know, if oil leaves the
engine from undesired places, it may mean that
something needs to be fixed."
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> At 03:59 PM 6/9/2002, you wrote:
> >
> > You didn't by any chance use Phillips 20W50 instead of 25W60. I would
> >expect to see those symptoms with that.
>
> I ran 20W50 in my Huosai for about 500 hours until I found 25W60 in a
> convenient package. Nary a problem with that.
>
> You know, if oil leaves the engine from undesired places, it may mean that
> something needs to be fixed.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JB C" <n1192y(at)interisland.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GIB Tach wiring |
Hi Mike. Yep, lots of trouble free miles in a wonderfully trouble free
bird! You guys do wonderful work! I send you a photo for grins! It really
has been a joy!
As I recall, Charles opted for the digital tach but that may not be the
case. So I suppose theres no easy way to hook up the harness to the rear and
test it, eh? And yes it is currently placarded 'INOP" from when you
originally had it. I agree you can see the digital from the GIB seat but I
do get tired of hearing the grief from 'back there'.
Next summer I plan to get back to ohio for some currecy training.
Hope all is well with the McCoy family. Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike McCoy" <mike(at)aircraftsales.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: GIB Tach wiring
>
> Hi Jack,
>
> It's been a while since I have talked to you. I hope that means that
you're
> getting in a lot of trouble free flying.
>
> In answer to your question, if you have the digital tach in front, you
> probably can not replace the tach in back without a great deal of work and
> expense. As I recall, you do have the digital tach in front. We only
> install those if the original tach system is badly broken, which usually
> means that the tach drive at the engine is screwed up. If this is the
> case, then the aft tach can not be simply re-connected. You would have to
> fix the original problem which could be a major project. The tach in the
> back should be placarded "INOP".
>
> If you have the digital tach, it is normally located in the upper right
> quadrant of the instrument panel and is visible from the aft cockpit.
>
> Please feel free to e-mail if you have any further questions.
>
> Mike McCoy
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
"Snaproll Inc" 505-823-3333, www.snaproll-sukhoi.com Any part I needed from
them they overnighted to me. They are located at Double Eagle Two Airport in
ABQ, NM Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
John,
I cant answer that question, in fact I have no knowledge about where you
could even start looking for a iris system other than in Russia or Latvia.
My guy (in Latvia) has already told me that he could not supply me with the
iris system. You might try Geo Coy or Carl Hayes. I sell the Yak 18T gills
(new) for $1250 for the complete assy.
Always Yakin,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> Doug,
> Thanks for the interesting information, but can you explain why I see so
> many 300hr Sukhois at aerobatic contests all over the west with irises
that
> show no apparent wear? I'm puzzled.
>
> How much does a set of Yak-55m gills go for?
> How much does a Sukhoi iris go for?
>
> Thanks again!
> jc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> John,
> The Yak 55 is really rather exotic and there are very few here in the US,
my
> guy in Russia tells me that 55 parts are extremely hard to get. If that
is
> not enough reason the consider that the iris "lens" are constantly
vibrating
> against one another, in just a few hours they start weeping the gray goo
> that is typical of two pieces of alu rubbing against each other. In short
> order they simply eat themselves up. It was a good idea, kinda cool
looking
> also, but the plain old gills ala Yak 18A, 18T, CJ6, Cj6A seem to do the
job
> real well and last a lot longer. By the way this is not a sales job as I
am
> out of Shutter assys right now and will not have any more until August.
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> >
> > Doug,
> > Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
> > counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
> >
> > Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
> > John Coffey
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> > Francis,
> > The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
> both
> > went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
> type
> > now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
> to
> > overhaul yours.
> >
> > Always Yakin,
> > Doug Sapp
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> > <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
> Yak
> > 50
> > > > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> > stock
> > > > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> > install
> > > > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
> the
> > > > iris system?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Francis Butler
> > > Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 5.5.2654.89">
> > RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
Doug,
> >
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
> > a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
> > fall apart.
> >
> >
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
> > set?
> >
John Coffey
> >
> >
> >
-----Original Message-----
> >
From: Doug [<A
> > HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]> >
> >
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
> >
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> >
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
> > rvfltd(at)televar.com
> >
> >
> >
Francis,
> >
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
> > installed on CJ's and both
> >
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
> > you have the standard gill type
> >
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
> > get you the parts necessary to
> >
overhaul yours.
> >
> >
> >
Always Yakin,
> >
Doug Sapp
> >
----- Original Message -----
> >
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
> > FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
> >
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> >
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
> >
> >
> >
> >
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
> > FRANCIS
> >
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone out there
> > using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
> >
50
> >
or other Yak type? I need to
> > either rework my center rings on the
> >
stock
> >
shutter system or I am considering the
> > Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> >
install
> >
and is available. Any out there with
> > experience in mounting / using the
> >
iris system?
> >
> >
> >
> > Francis
> > Butler
> >
> SIZE2> Yak 50's N612BM
> > N17FS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> p; - The Yak-List Email Forum
> > -
> > through the Contributions of
> > see banner ads or any other form
> > Matronics Forums.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > browser to view the latest messages.
> > and files with other List members.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > Message: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> > UN/SUBSCRIBE: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > Share: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > List: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list > >
> > > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/search
> > Archives: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/archives"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/yak-list
> > Lists: > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > Matronics: > HREF"http://www.matronics.com/"
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
My SU-29 has 425TT and iris is perfect and works VERY smoothly. One finger
push-pull on the button to actuate. Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Coffey, John
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
Doug,
Thanks for the interesting information, but can you explain why I see so
many 300hr Sukhois at aerobatic contests all over the west with irises that
show no apparent wear? I'm puzzled.
How much does a set of Yak-55m gills go for?
How much does a Sukhoi iris go for?
Thanks again!
jc
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
John,
The Yak 55 is really rather exotic and there are very few here in the US, my
guy in Russia tells me that 55 parts are extremely hard to get. If that is
not enough reason the consider that the iris "lens" are constantly vibrating
against one another, in just a few hours they start weeping the gray goo
that is typical of two pieces of alu rubbing against each other. In short
order they simply eat themselves up. It was a good idea, kinda cool looking
also, but the plain old gills ala Yak 18A, 18T, CJ6, Cj6A seem to do the job
real well and last a lot longer. By the way this is not a sales job as I am
out of Shutter assys right now and will not have any more until August.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
> Doug,
> Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such a headache. I was
> counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills fall apart.
>
> Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill set?
> John Coffey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug [mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> Francis,
> The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2 installed on CJ's and
both
> went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do you have the standard gill
type
> now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to get you the parts necessary
to
> overhaul yours.
>
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BUTLER, FRANCIS" <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> To:
> Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
> <FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com>
> >
> >
> > > Anyone out there using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a
Yak
> 50
> > > or other Yak type? I need to either rework my center rings on the
> stock
> > > shutter system or I am considering the Sukoi iris if it is an easy
> install
> > > and is available. Any out there with experience in mounting / using
the
> > > iris system?
> > >
> > >
> > > Francis Butler
> > Yak 50's N612BM & N17FS
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.5.2654.89">
> RE: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
Doug,
>
Can you provide some DETAILS on why the iris is such
> a headache. I was counting on putting one in my Yak-55 after the gills
> fall apart.
>
>
Can you get parts to overhaul a Yak-55 gill
> set?
>
John Coffey
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: Doug [<A
> HREF"mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com">mailto:rvfltd(at)televar.com]>
>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:19 PM
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: Doug
> rvfltd(at)televar.com
>
>
>
Francis,
>
The iris type is a real head ache, I have seen 2
> installed on CJ's and both
>
went in the trash in less than 50 hours. Do
> you have the standard gill type
>
now?? if yes, I will most likely be able to
> get you the parts necessary to
>
overhaul yours.
>
>
>
Always Yakin,
>
Doug Sapp
>
----- Original Message -----
>
From: BUTLER, FRANCIS
> FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
Subject: Yak-List: Iris for M14P
>
>
>
>
-- Yak-List message posted by: BUTLER,
> FRANCIS
>
FRANCIS_BUTLER@butler-machinery.com
>
>
>
> Anyone out there
> using a Sukoi Iris type shutter system on a Yak
>
50
>
or other Yak type? I need to
> either rework my center rings on the
>
stock
>
shutter system or I am considering the
> Sukoi iris if it is an easy
>
install
>
and is available. Any out there with
> experience in mounting / using the
>
iris system?
>
>
>
> Francis
> Butler
>
SIZE2> Yak 50's N612BM
> N17FS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
p; - The Yak-List Email Forum
> -
> through the Contributions of
> see banner ads or any other form
> Matronics Forums.
>
>
>
> browser to view the latest messages.
> and files with other List members.
>
>
>
> Message: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> UN/SUBSCRIBE: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> Share: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> List: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list >
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/search
> Archives: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/archives"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/archives
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/yak-list
> Lists: TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> Matronics: HREF"http://www.matronics.com/"
> TARGET"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
You are not mistaken. Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe the Phillips 25W-60 is a mineral based oil
and not synthetic. If it were synthetic, you wouldn't be able to buy it for
$30.34 for 4 - 1 gallon jugs (less than $2/QT). A case of quarts is around
$23. Still under $2/QT. Plus shipping of course. Compare that to AS15W-50
quart prices.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob & Nancy Fitzpatrick" <fitz(at)colint.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> When the cam went on the 0-540 in our Dakota the engine shop thanked me
for
> using AS15-50, said it gave them a lot of business. In the midwest we tend
> to have our planes sit more than some people (winter is a good example).
My
> understanding is that the multi's are synthetic and behave well in a busy
> engine but don't stick to the parts as well as the old petrol products if
> the plane sits very long. Another interesting comment from the shop : "I
> can't believe how many people think multi-grades get thicker when they get
> hotter". They don't. I use AS120 summer and AS100winter in the M14 and
> can't complain about weeping.
> I DO have a problem with belching oil from the breather tube when
inverted.
> A minutes worth of negative will have oil running off the back of the wing
> and onto the tail. I've flown as low as 9.5l in the tank and it still
> throws it out. Is that normal?
> bob
> (Boris)
>
>
> >
> >My experience with a CJ6/Housai engine is exactly the opposite.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >--- "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Gosh Dave. I'm really sorry to hear about your encounter with the
> > > 25W-60,
> > > since I probably was the one who suggested using it in lieu of the
> > > 100W.
> > > Has anyone else experienced similar problems with the Phillips
> > > 25W-60?
> > > Dennis Savarese
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <VDesi10492(at)aol.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys
> > > >
> > > > I just finished about 20 hrs worth of flying with
> > > 25w60
> > > > instead of 100wt. It was not a good experience.I have a 45 hr
> > > mp14 and
> > > > during its use the engine started to weep almost everywhere, the
> > > cowling
> > > > would show lots of streaks of oil on shutdown and the engine oil
> > > temp
> > > would
> > > > run pretty close to red line at cruise and power settings at only
> > > 65 to
> > > 70%.
> > > > I am now back to st 100wt and there is much lessing weeping of
> > > the engine,
> > > no
> > > > streaks on the cowling at shutdown and at the same altitude,
> > > power setting
> > > > and oat the engine oil temp is about 9deg cooler. My engine
> > > compartment is
> > > a
> > > > drippy mess with the 25w60 and not with the 100wt.
> > > >
> > > > This was my experience with this stuff
> > > >
> > > > Dave DeSimone
> > > > vdesi10492(at)AOL.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > messages.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Aircraft Inspection Service" <ais(at)shasta.com> |
| Subject: | aircraft for sale |
we have an aircraft to list in your list please call us with how.
(530)527-7742 terry or mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Alison Haskell" <markally(at)gwi.net> |
Hey Y'all,
For what it's worth, I am VERY happy with the Phillips 25W-60 oil in my
M-14P. I think the biggest motivator for me was the quicker protection to
the engine parts on a cold start up (very important way up here in Maine -
God's country, East) Flows faster at low temps, and the engine seems to
warm up faster too. The Phillips oil is mineral oil not synthetic, so there
are no issues there. I have been told by George Coy that the Aeroshell
15-50 is bad for the M-14P because some of the additives will trash your
compressor very quickly (perhaps the anti-scuffing or anti-rust
additives???) I am also running an ADC oil filter and I'm on an oil
analysis program too - everything is working GREAT and my engine seems to be
at least as clean as other M-14P's I've seen and flown using the
straight-weight oil from Aeroshell. As far as aerobatic flying, my
airplane seems to blow oil out of the breather any time there is more than
about 9 liters in the tank - below that, the oil on the outside of the
aircraft is minimal. Chalk it up to corrosion protection I guess :)
Now, if I could just get my landing gear to retract normally.........
Regards,
Mark Haskell
Maineyak!
N52MY Yak-52W
markally(at)gwi.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Phillips 25W-60 |
You mean you didn't order the optional "manual hand crank" for your landing
gear Mark? I had mine installed in the rear cockpit so my GIB can get the
practice. Anybody else have the optional "manual hand crank"? If so, where
did you have yours installed?
Dennis Savarese
p.s. Only joking with you of course Mark. Does Geo. Coy have a possible
solution to whatever the gear problem is?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark & Alison Haskell" <markally(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Phillips 25W-60
>
> Hey Y'all,
>
> For what it's worth, I am VERY happy with the Phillips 25W-60 oil in my
> M-14P. I think the biggest motivator for me was the quicker protection to
> the engine parts on a cold start up (very important way up here in Maine -
> God's country, East) Flows faster at low temps, and the engine seems to
> warm up faster too. The Phillips oil is mineral oil not synthetic, so
there
> are no issues there. I have been told by George Coy that the Aeroshell
> 15-50 is bad for the M-14P because some of the additives will trash your
> compressor very quickly (perhaps the anti-scuffing or anti-rust
> additives???) I am also running an ADC oil filter and I'm on an oil
> analysis program too - everything is working GREAT and my engine seems to
be
> at least as clean as other M-14P's I've seen and flown using the
> straight-weight oil from Aeroshell. As far as aerobatic flying, my
> airplane seems to blow oil out of the breather any time there is more than
> about 9 liters in the tank - below that, the oil on the outside of the
> aircraft is minimal. Chalk it up to corrosion protection I guess :)
>
> Now, if I could just get my landing gear to retract normally.........
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Haskell
> Maineyak!
> N52MY Yak-52W
> markally(at)gwi.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim & Alice" <alikatz(at)mbay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: 3rd attempt |
Don,
How's everything going with you? I'll be sure to give the number to my
Dad. Take care and talk with you soon.
Jim Selby, Jr
----- Original Message -----
From: <DAndMFLYAZ(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: 3rd attempt
>
> Hi Jim
> Bill new cell is (623) 703-1001
> Don Andrews
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver(at)earthlink.net> |
Brian writes.........
"It depends. Most synthetics are supposed to be formulated to have
higher
metal affinity than pure mineral oils. That means they stick longer.
But
after a week or two, even the synthetics drain down and leave the metal
unprotected. Still, they stick longer than mineral oils."
Brian,
I'm not so sure about that. Food for thought......I keep an extra spring
for my hanger door. You know, one of those that aid in opening the
hanger door? Well, I noticed a few months ago that it was rusty. I,
liberally, lubed it with a synthetic oil. Last weekend I took a look at
it and it still appeared saturated with oil. My suggestion here is that
I think some oil may drain away over time but that there is still some
oil present on a given surface. Exactly how long the oil remains on the
surface could be a subject of debate but I think it is longer than most
would estimate.
Here, in the high desert, I've taken the heads off of old engine blocks
that have been laying around the yard for a few years and noticed no
rust on the cylinder walls. On the other hand, I, recently, helped a
friend install a Mercedes engine he bought second hand from someone who
lived near the ocean. After bringing it home, he noticed the bores were
OK but all the cam lobes had rust on them. The engine had been sitting
about 7 years. My guess it that it takes a long, long time for enough
oil to drain away for it to become a problem. Why were the cam lobes
rusty but the bores OK? My guess it metallurgy.
Frank
Chino
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AirshowPilot1(at)aol.com |
I have used the 25W60 Phillips for over 300 hours of hard 100% full out
aerobatics. Not one problem and the engine is really dry. Oil temps peg at
just shy of 100 degrees C in the vertical hanging maneuvers. We also add
Marvel Mystery Oil to the fuel mixture.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
>
>Brian writes.........
>
>I'm not so sure about that. Food for thought......I keep an extra spring
>for my hanger door. You know, one of those that aid in opening the
>hanger door? Well, I noticed a few months ago that it was rusty. I,
>liberally, lubed it with a synthetic oil. Last weekend I took a look at
>it and it still appeared saturated with oil. My suggestion here is that
>I think some oil may drain away over time but that there is still some
>oil present on a given surface. Exactly how long the oil remains on the
>surface could be a subject of debate but I think it is longer than most
>would estimate.
Light Plane Maintenance did tests for rust protection on various aircraft
engine oils a number of years back. Their test was to get several
identical camshafts and soak them in the engine oils. The cams were then
left in a harsh sea air environment and then they measured how long it took
before the cams began to rust. This is an indication of how long the oil
remains on the cam protecting it.
As I recall, the cam soaked in straight-weight mineral oil started rusting
in about 3 days. I do not remember what else they tested but Aeroshell
15W50 was the second best and the cam started rusting after something like
15 days. The big winner was Mobil-1, now unavailable. After the end of
the 30 day test the cam soaked in Mobil-1 still had not started to rust.
You can't really tell how good an oil will protect unless you test
it. OTOH, fly your airplane every day and it becomes a non-issue.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wes Warner <wes(at)lppcs.com> |
Does anyone have any information on what the life extensions consist of
for a Yak 55M?
Thanks,
Wes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
"Buddy Moman" , ,
"Jerry W. Williams and Victoria L. Searcy" ,
"Ray Reeves" ,
"Richard Savarese" <RSavarese@dci-av.com>,
"Stephen Beaver"
| Subject: | What's wrong with this picture? |
Other than the tip tanks, what else do you see?
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186634/M/
Dennis Savarese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway(at)datatechnique.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? |
>>> adsavar(at)gte.net 06/12/02 08:41AM >>>
Other than the tip tanks, what else do you see?
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186634/M/
Dennis Savarese
Wow! Check out the horizontal stab and elevator. Will that really
work?
tc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Schrick <schrick(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? (Answers to your |
questions)
The Rudder was manufactured by a company called Technovia (sp). It is
to give the Yak 52 more rudder authority. They redesigned the YAK 52,
Yak 18T,Ya k 55 and made a acrobatic plane called aE-3 / SP-95 that
was all metal 1 and 2 place. The tip tanks are available from Mark
Jefferies I believe. They work and you get an additional 30 liters per
side (no acro).
Love that Russian crappy glass (Get USA Glass from Desser Tire and see
the world)
Hope that helps.
Mark Schrick
>To: Scott Patterson ,
> Buddy Moman , yak-list(at)matronics.com,
> "Jerry W. Williams and Victoria L. Searcy" ,
> Ray Reeves , Richard Savarese ,
> Stephen Beaver
>Subject: Yak-List: What's wrong with this picture?
>From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:41:10 -0500
>
>
>Other than the tip tanks, what else do you see?
>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186634/M/
>Dennis Savarese
************************************************************
Mark Schrick
966 Wallace Drive
San Jose, CA 95120-1848
(408) 323-5150 Phone/Fax (408) 391-6664 (Cell)
schrick(at)pacbell.net
************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? |
There's another photo from a more acute angle from the rear and it doesn't
look like the elevator and horizontal stab are swept in that photo. If you
really examine this photo, the elevator is fully up. Try to look at it that
way. Either way, I agree with Terry. When I saw it I said "WOW". It sure
does look swept back.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Calloway" <TCalloway(at)datatechnique.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: What's wrong with this picture?
>
>
> >>> adsavar(at)gte.net 06/12/02 08:41AM >>>
>
> Other than the tip tanks, what else do you see?
> http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186634/M/
> Dennis Savarese
>
> Wow! Check out the horizontal stab and elevator. Will that really
> work?
> tc
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? (Answers to your questions) |
Thanks Mark. That clarifies it. Looks very similar to a CJ rudder.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schrick" <schrick(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: What's wrong with this picture? (Answers to your
questions)
>
> The Rudder was manufactured by a company called Technovia (sp). It is
> to give the Yak 52 more rudder authority. They redesigned the YAK 52,
> Yak 18T,Ya k 55 and made a acrobatic plane called aE-3 / SP-95 that
> was all metal 1 and 2 place. The tip tanks are available from Mark
> Jefferies I believe. They work and you get an additional 30 liters per
> side (no acro).
>
> Love that Russian crappy glass (Get USA Glass from Desser Tire and see
> the world)
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Mark Schrick
>
>
> >To: Scott Patterson ,
> > Buddy Moman , yak-list(at)matronics.com,
> > "Jerry W. Williams and Victoria L. Searcy" ,
> > Ray Reeves , Richard Savarese
<RSavarese@dci-av.com>,
> > Stephen Beaver
> >Subject: Yak-List: What's wrong with this picture?
> >From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net>
> >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:41:10 -0500
> >
> >
> >Other than the tip tanks, what else do you see?
> >http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186634/M/
> >Dennis Savarese
>
> ************************************************************
> Mark Schrick
> 966 Wallace Drive
> San Jose, CA 95120-1848
> (408) 323-5150 Phone/Fax (408) 391-6664 (Cell)
> schrick(at)pacbell.net
> ************************************************************
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ByronMFox(at)aol.com |
The tachs in both cockpits of my CJ are bouncing about 100 rpm either side of
the selected setting which would seem to indicate a tach generator problem.
Neither Jim Selby or Doug Sapp has ever had one of these apart although Jim
says the manual recommends lubricating the generator every 500 hours. Has
anyone successfully lubed one? ....Or should just write Doug a check?
...Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
Home 415-380-0907
Cell 415-307-2405
Fax 415-380-0917
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tach Generator |
At 11:36 AM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
>
>The tachs in both cockpits of my CJ are bouncing about 100 rpm either side of
>the selected setting which would seem to indicate a tach generator problem.
>Neither Jim Selby or Doug Sapp has ever had one of these apart although Jim
>says the manual recommends lubricating the generator every 500 hours. Has
>anyone successfully lubed one? ....Or should just write Doug a check?
Do you have a tach generator that mounts on the engine mount with a cable
to the accessory section or do you have one that mounts directly on the
starting air distributor? In the former case I would inspect and lube the
tach drive cable before I started tearing apart the tach generator.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tach Generator |
I think that is a real good idea Brian , maybe the problem is your cable
hanging up. Use some white Lithium grease on it.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tach Generator
>
> At 11:36 AM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >The tachs in both cockpits of my CJ are bouncing about 100 rpm either
side of
> >the selected setting which would seem to indicate a tach generator
problem.
> >Neither Jim Selby or Doug Sapp has ever had one of these apart although
Jim
> >says the manual recommends lubricating the generator every 500 hours.
Has
> >anyone successfully lubed one? ....Or should just write Doug a check?
>
> Do you have a tach generator that mounts on the engine mount with a cable
> to the accessory section or do you have one that mounts directly on the
> starting air distributor? In the former case I would inspect and lube the
> tach drive cable before I started tearing apart the tach generator.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Farley <david.farley(at)aspentech.com> |
>
>I use the 25W60 in my Husai and my engine compartment and wing
>roots are usually oily, and the belly is a mess.
>
Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning products
suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly? I have been washing my
airplane with warm water and just a little detergent (washing-up liquid) but
this really doesn't do a good job on the really oily bits?
Dave Farley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Coffey, John" <john.coffey(at)attws.com> |
Dave,
Odorless mineral spirits (takes the oil right off, works great in the engine
compartment too), followed by Scubbing Bubbles to take off the underlying
yellow/brown exhaust residue. This combo will leave your bird shining
BRIGHTLY.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Farley [mailto:david.farley(at)aspentech.com]
Subject: RE: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>I use the 25W60 in my Husai and my engine compartment and wing
>roots are usually oily, and the belly is a mess.
>
Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning products
suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly? I have been washing my
airplane with warm water and just a little detergent (washing-up liquid) but
this really doesn't do a good job on the really oily bits?
Dave Farley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Laird <dave(at)davelaird.com> |
>
>Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning products
>suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly? I have been washing my
>airplane with warm water and just a little detergent (washing-up liquid) but
>this really doesn't do a good job on the really oily bits?
>
> Dave Farley
>
Uh... I have used GOJO original formula hand cleaner in the White
Tub... the CREME, not the gritty version, with great success on my
Cessna. I started using it after I read an inquiry about using it
for this purpose in the Cessna Pilot's Association mag. Their reply
was if its safe enough for your hands its fine on the
plane/paint/metal... especially if you spray/wipe any residue off
with water/towels.
I don't use it often 'cuz it still scares me a little... but when the belly is
really dirty, it works really well...
But I repeat: you must use the CREME version... it's really cheap,
like $1 a tub and you can find it all walmart...
Dave Laird
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
HI,
I read a statement on the yak list a while back that said the max speed
Vmo or the max diving speed was 375kts. When I refer to the Technical
Section of the Chinese manual that Brian posted on the web, I find the
max diving speed to be 350 kts.
Does anyone have a reference for the 375 kts speed?
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Dennis Savarese" <adsavar(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
Knots or kilometers? I seriously doubt either 350 OR 375 KNOTS. More
likely, 350 or 375 Kilometers.
Dennis Savarese
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> HI,
> I read a statement on the yak list a while back that said the max speed
> Vmo or the max diving speed was 375kts. When I refer to the Technical
> Section of the Chinese manual that Brian posted on the web, I find the
> max diving speed to be 350 kts.
> Does anyone have a reference for the 375 kts speed?
> Terry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
OOOPS!
The last message should read 350 km/ph and 375 km/ph, not knots.
I will now check before pushing send button and try to avoid looking
dumb. Sorry.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Payne <cpayne(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
"Maximum Diving Speed".
Craig Payne
T.A. Lewis wrote:
>
>
> HI,
> I read a statement on the yak list a while back that said the max speed
> Vmo or the max diving speed was 375kts. When I refer to the Technical
> Section of the Chinese manual that Brian posted on the web, I find the
> max diving speed to be 350 kts.
> Does anyone have a reference for the 375 kts speed?
> Terry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 01:48 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
>Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning products
>suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly?
I found some great stuff that cuts oil right now. I spray it on and then
just hose the oil off. It is called "Oil Eater" and I found it at
Costco. I suspect that anything that potent could be corrosive if left on
so be sure to rinse it thoroughly. I just spray the belly liberally and
then wash the airplane. Poof! No oil.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
Crieg,
370 km/hr is probably the speed. I just can't find a reference to that
speed. What I need is a reference .
The manual says the max diving speed 350 km/hr.
Thanks,
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <cpayne(at)mc.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> "Maximum Diving Speed".
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
> T.A. Lewis wrote:
> >
> >
> > HI,
> > I read a statement on the yak list a while back that said the max speed
> > Vmo or the max diving speed was 375kts. When I refer to the Technical
> > Section of the Chinese manual that Brian posted on the web, I find the
> > max diving speed to be 350 kts.
> > Does anyone have a reference for the 375 kts speed?
> > Terry
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
>
>Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
>MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
>indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
>"Maximum Diving Speed".
I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns out
it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the error
increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to about
150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so Craig's
point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is a
good one.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
Hi,
You guys are missing the point.
My air speed indicators are calibrated to 210 kts within the last year. Has
nothing to do with my question.
What I want to know is where did you come up with 370 km/hr when the Teck
manual says the max dive speed is 350 km/hr.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> >"Maximum Diving Speed".
>
> I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns
out
> it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
error
> increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
about
> 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
Craig's
> point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is a
> good one.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
Many of the citrus based cleaners cut oil real fast, but be wary as many are
very corrosive. While most do wash off easily, I always worry about the
cleaner that gets between the skin laps. Most of these type of cleaners
have a viscosity far finer than water, thus it goes where water will not.
So you spray it on it soaks between the skins and then you try to wash it
off/out with water..........good luck! Elbow grease may still be one of the
best cleaners out there.
Always yakin,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> At 01:48 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> >Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning
products
> >suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly?
>
> I found some great stuff that cuts oil right now. I spray it on and then
> just hose the oil off. It is called "Oil Eater" and I found it at
> Costco. I suspect that anything that potent could be corrosive if left on
> so be sure to rinse it thoroughly. I just spray the belly liberally and
> then wash the airplane. Poof! No oil.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
Doug,
You got that right. Citric acid works great but is corrosive. Auto car wash
is a little more labor intensive but usually does the job. I also like
mineral spirits for the tough spots.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> Many of the citrus based cleaners cut oil real fast, but be wary as many
are
> very corrosive. While most do wash off easily, I always worry about the
> cleaner that gets between the skin laps. Most of these type of cleaners
> have a viscosity far finer than water, thus it goes where water will not.
> So you spray it on it soaks between the skins and then you try to wash it
> off/out with water..........good luck! Elbow grease may still be one of
the
> best cleaners out there.
>
> Always yakin,
> Doug
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> >
> > At 01:48 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > >Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning
> products
> > >suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly?
> >
> > I found some great stuff that cuts oil right now. I spray it on and
then
> > just hose the oil off. It is called "Oil Eater" and I found it at
> > Costco. I suspect that anything that potent could be corrosive if left
on
> > so be sure to rinse it thoroughly. I just spray the belly liberally and
> > then wash the airplane. Poof! No oil.
> >
> >
> > Brian Lloyd
> > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
Terry;
VNE is 350 KPH for the CJ6, It is 370KPH for the CJ6A (actually CJ6JIA) The
manual we have is written for the CJ6 with addendums to show the changes.
Don't ask me why they can increase VNE just because the aircraft has 15 more
HP. Beats the hell out of me but thats it.
Cheers
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> Hi,
> You guys are missing the point.
> My air speed indicators are calibrated to 210 kts within the last year.
Has
> nothing to do with my question.
> What I want to know is where did you come up with 370 km/hr when the Teck
> manual says the max dive speed is 350 km/hr.
> Terry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
>
> >
> > At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> > >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> > >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> > >"Maximum Diving Speed".
> >
> > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns
> out
> > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
> error
> > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
> about
> > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
> Craig's
> > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is
a
> > good one.
> >
> >
> > Brian Lloyd
> > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
I believe only "Batman" in his Bat Plane (Robin in the rear of course) can
safely exceed the varying references for Vne in the CJ family.
Holy Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> >"Maximum Diving Speed".
>
> I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns
out
> it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
error
> increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
about
> 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
Craig's
> point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is a
> good one.
Brian;
You are describing the static position error which, on the CJ6 is quite
signifigant.
When your aircraft arrived from China it should have had 4 calibration cards
in each cockpit. They were; Gyrosyn Compass, Standby Compass, Airspeed
correction & Altimeter correction. The were probably too faded to read or
missing altogether.
Here is reasonably good, totally unapproved method of checking.
1. Set altimeter to exact runway elevation.
2. Conduct slow, cruise and high speed passes over the runway as low as you
are comfortable with. Must be able to accurately estimate height.
2. Note altimeter reading with each pass. No static error would read runway
plus estimated height regardless of airspeed.
Not very scientific but gives a fair estimate of static error.
Walt
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
At 09:51 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns out
> > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the error
> > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to about
> > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so Craig's
> > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is a
> > good one.
>
>Brian;
>You are describing the static position error which, on the CJ6 is quite
>Signifigant.
>When your aircraft arrived from China it should have had 4 calibration cards
>in each cockpit. They were; Gyrosyn Compass, Standby Compass, Airspeed
>correction & Altimeter correction. The were probably too faded to read or
>missing altogether.
They aren't there.
>Here is reasonably good, totally unapproved method of checking.
>1. Set altimeter to exact runway elevation.
>2. Conduct slow, cruise and high speed passes over the runway as low as you
>are comfortable with. Must be able to accurately estimate height.
>2. Note altimeter reading with each pass. No static error would read runway
>plus estimated height regardless of airspeed.
Good point. That will work. Regardless, I can still build a calibration
chart for any speed up to whatever I can maintain in level flight.
>Not very scientific but gives a fair estimate of static error.
How much error do you see in your system?
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Yak-List: speeds CJ
>
> OOOPS!
> The last message should read 350 km/ph and 375 km/ph, not knots.
> I will now check before pushing send button and try to avoid looking
> dumb. Sorry.
> Terry
I keep telling myself that but it does'nt work. Just sent 15 HP instead of
25 HP increase.
Walt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "eugene stansbery" <estansbery(at)houston.rr.com> |
You might try "Dri Wash 'n Guard." It is a waterless wash and wax product.
It seems to be a pretty good wax and it does a really good job of cutting
the oil easily. The big drawback - it's expensive. But, it is good.
http://www.dri-wash.com/
PS. I have no financial interest in the company.
Gene Stansbery
N2278
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
> Doug,
> You got that right. Citric acid works great but is corrosive. Auto car
wash
> is a little more labor intensive but usually does the job. I also like
> mineral spirits for the tough spots.
> Terry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: 25w60
>
>
> >
> > Many of the citrus based cleaners cut oil real fast, but be wary as many
> are
> > very corrosive. While most do wash off easily, I always worry about the
> > cleaner that gets between the skin laps. Most of these type of cleaners
> > have a viscosity far finer than water, thus it goes where water will
not.
> > So you spray it on it soaks between the skins and then you try to wash
it
> > off/out with water..........good luck! Elbow grease may still be one of
> the
> > best cleaners out there.
> >
> > Always yakin,
> > Doug
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Yak-List: 25w60
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At 01:48 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > > >Speaking of "the belly being a mess" can anyone recommend cleaning
> > products
> > > >suitable for cutting through the oil on the belly?
> > >
> > > I found some great stuff that cuts oil right now. I spray it on and
> then
> > > just hose the oil off. It is called "Oil Eater" and I found it at
> > > Costco. I suspect that anything that potent could be corrosive if
left
> on
> > > so be sure to rinse it thoroughly. I just spray the belly liberally
and
> > > then wash the airplane. Poof! No oil.
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian Lloyd
> > > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> At 09:51 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS
and
> > > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator.
Turns out
> > > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the
slow
> > > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
error
> > > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
about
> > > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
Craig's
> > > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument
is a
> > > good one.
> >
> >Brian;
> >You are describing the static position error which, on the CJ6 is quite
> >Signifigant.
> >When your aircraft arrived from China it should have had 4 calibration
cards
> >in each cockpit. They were; Gyrosyn Compass, Standby Compass, Airspeed
> >correction & Altimeter correction. The were probably too faded to read or
> >missing altogether.
>
> They aren't there.
>
> >Here is reasonably good, totally unapproved method of checking.
> >1. Set altimeter to exact runway elevation.
> >2. Conduct slow, cruise and high speed passes over the runway as low as
you
> >are comfortable with. Must be able to accurately estimate height.
> >2. Note altimeter reading with each pass. No static error would read
runway
> >plus estimated height regardless of airspeed.
>
> Good point. That will work. Regardless, I can still build a calibration
> chart for any speed up to whatever I can maintain in level flight.
>
> >Not very scientific but gives a fair estimate of static error.
>
> How much error do you see in your system?
Pretty much as you have determined using the GPS which, by the way, is a
far better, smarter but less fun way to do this. Did the top runs at 180 kts
ind. and estimate A/S error, from in/hg change, to be at least kts - reading
low. I have advised local owners to stay away from the red line.
When I get my hangar queen (quiet Doug) operational it will have a totally
different static system.
Walt
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: max speed CJ 6A |
I have to try to remember to check for errors BEFORE hitting send. Last
missive should have read "---at least 10 kts ----".
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> At 09:51 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS
and
> > > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator.
Turns out
> > > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the
slow
> > > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
error
> > > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
about
> > > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
Craig's
> > > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument
is a
> > > good one.
> >
> >Brian;
> >You are describing the static position error which, on the CJ6 is quite
> >Signifigant.
> >When your aircraft arrived from China it should have had 4 calibration
cards
> >in each cockpit. They were; Gyrosyn Compass, Standby Compass, Airspeed
> >correction & Altimeter correction. The were probably too faded to read or
> >missing altogether.
>
> They aren't there.
>
> >Here is reasonably good, totally unapproved method of checking.
> >1. Set altimeter to exact runway elevation.
> >2. Conduct slow, cruise and high speed passes over the runway as low as
you
> >are comfortable with. Must be able to accurately estimate height.
> >2. Note altimeter reading with each pass. No static error would read
runway
> >plus estimated height regardless of airspeed.
>
> Good point. That will work. Regardless, I can still build a calibration
> chart for any speed up to whatever I can maintain in level flight.
>
> >Not very scientific but gives a fair estimate of static error.
>
> How much error do you see in your system?
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa(at)kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Yakovlev address |
Hi,
I am trying to find the web page and or email address for the Yakovlev
design bureau in Russia, or whatever they call themselves now.
Does anyone have any info?
Lisa
www.kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike McCoy" <mike(at)aircraftsales.com> |
| Subject: | Max speed CJ 6A on Page 4 |
The max speed of 370 kph (kilometers per hour) for the CJ6A is shown on page
4 in the written manual.
I flight test every one of the Yakity Yaks CJ's to redline. I view this as
absolutely necessary so the customer can be confident that he can safely fly
the airplane throughout its entire flight envelope. How many times have you
seen a new aerobatic pilot (or one during training) screw up a maneuver and
reach or even exceed redline. This scenario occurs frequently and the
airplane flies fine at the published redline. However, this only applies to
a properly assembled CJ6A (285 hp) in good shape, with minimal mods, and
with the pitot static system in proper shape.
Mike McCoy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Dycus" <dycusr(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Columbus participants |
AIRBOSS TO ALL FLIGHT CREWS INVOLVED AT OLU!!!!!!
I need the times you all flew on Wednesday so that I can complete the
logsheet for the event. PLEASE send me, off-list, any and all times,
positions flown, and with who you flew, that you have, whether or not
you were the lead.
Russ (trying to do a complete job) Dycus
________________________________________________________________________________
Terry,
What tech manual? The Pilot's Operating Manual says 370KPH
Craig Payne
Hi,
You guys are missing the point.
My air speed indicators are calibrated to 210 kts within the last year. Has
nothing to do with my question.
What I want to know is where did you come up with 370 km/hr when the Teck
manual says the max dive speed is 350 km/hr.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
> At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> >"Maximum Diving Speed".
>
> I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns
out
> it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
error
> increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
about
> 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
Craig's
> point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is a
> good one.
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Dycus" <dycusr(at)hotmail.com> |
Gentlemen, pilots, and friends,
I come to you humbly, hat in hand, to ask for your help. I have the
need for better employment than I enjoy today. I was laid off from my
job as a District Service Manager at 3Com last June and have been
searching for a new job in computer networking/ field service ever
since. Once state unemployment ended, I went to Starbucks Coffee and
work there as a Shift Supervisor. The work is enjoyable, the clients
mostly fun, but the pay is not wonderful. Many of you know me from my
work as your Airboss, that is the kind of focus, goal setting, and
teamwork that I bring to my work life as well.
I specialize in the direction of information technology and
telecommunications activities, including full responsibility for
corporate policies, standards and strategies, hardware and software
support, troubleshooting and field engineers. In addition, my background
includes an extensive knowledge of TCP/IP, SNMP protocols, router
technology, AS/400 communications, SNA networking, and WAN/LAN
technologies.
My peers would tell you I'm an innovative problem solver with the
ability to create applications and manage systems that produce results.
Specifically I can bring you:
* Experience in budget planning, forecasting, and analysis.
* Skills in needs assessment, problem identification and resolution.
* Proven abilities in staff and manager training, supervision and
motivation.
Given a chance to proof myself, I will excel at whatever I am tasked
with. So, if you have an opportunity that you think might be for me,
please contact me off-list.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Russ Dycus
(847)287-1287
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug" <rvfltd(at)televar.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Yakovlev address |
Lisa,
Information is very hard to get from the YDB. If you e-mail me off list and
tell me about the information you are seeking I will query a close friend
who has a very good relationship with the YDB. This will NOT be a quick
process.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa(at)kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Yak-List: Yakovlev address
>
> Hi,
>
> I am trying to find the web page and or email address for the Yakovlev
> design bureau in Russia, or whatever they call themselves now.
>
> Does anyone have any info?
>
> Lisa
>
> www.kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: <cpayne(at)mc.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Max Speed?
>
> Terry,
>
> What tech manual? The Pilot's Operating Manual says 370KPH
>
> Craig Payne
>
Craig,
The manual I am refering to is named
PART ONE
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
OF THE AIRPLANE
Same as the CD Drian has posted on his wed site.
Both Walt Lannon and Mike McCoy tell me that 370 km/hr is a good number
.However I have a complete printed set of CJ manuals and I havn't seen 370
yet. I will look in the pilot hanbdook when I go to the hangar.
Thanks to all for the info. I really didn't want to redo my a/s indicator
faces.
Terry
>
> Hi,
> You guys are missing the point.
> My air speed indicators are calibrated to 210 kts within the last year.
Has
> nothing to do with my question.
> What I want to know is where did you come up with 370 km/hr when the Teck
> manual says the max dive speed is 350 km/hr.
> Terry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
>
>
> >
> > At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say 228
> > >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> > >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> > >"Maximum Diving Speed".
> >
> > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS and
> > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator. Turns
> out
> > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the slow
> > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
> error
> > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
> about
> > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
> Craig's
> > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument is
a
> > good one.
> >
> >
> > Brian Lloyd
> > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walt Lannon" <lannon(at)look.ca> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.A. Lewis" <talewis(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Max Speed?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <cpayne(at)mc.net>
> To:
> Subject: Yak-List: Max Speed?
>
>
> >
> > Terry,
> >
> > What tech manual? The Pilot's Operating Manual says 370KPH
> >
> > Craig Payne
> >
> Craig,
> The manual I am refering to is named
> PART ONE
> TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
> OF THE AIRPLANE
> Same as the CD Drian has posted on his wed site.
Terry;
Page 190 & 191 (last two pages of Part One)
Walt
> Both Walt Lannon and Mike McCoy tell me that 370 km/hr is a good number
> .However I have a complete printed set of CJ manuals and I havn't seen 370
> yet. I will look in the pilot hanbdook when I go to the hangar.
> Thanks to all for the info. I really didn't want to redo my a/s indicator
> faces.
> Terry
>
>
> >
> > Hi,
> > You guys are missing the point.
> > My air speed indicators are calibrated to 210 kts within the last year.
> Has
> > nothing to do with my question.
> > What I want to know is where did you come up with 370 km/hr when the
Teck
> > manual says the max dive speed is 350 km/hr.
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Yak-List: max speed CJ 6A
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At 07:20 PM 6/12/2002, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Uh..that really should be 370 KPH or maybe 199 Kts, or you can say
228
> > > >MPH, even Mach 0.3... That said, be sure and have your airspeed
> > > >indicator checked by an A&P if you even think about getting near
> > > >"Maximum Diving Speed".
> > >
> > > I ran some tests with my airplane. I used the GPS to determine TAS
and
> > > worked backward to calculate the error in my airspeed indicator.
Turns
> > out
> > > it is right on at around 90 kts. It is only about 2 kts off at the
slow
> > > speed end but as you reach higher and higher indicated airspeeds, the
> > error
> > > increases with the airspeed indicator reading low. I tested it up to
> > about
> > > 150 kts IAS and it was indicating about 10 kts low at that point so
> > Craig's
> > > point about not wanting to get too near the redline on the instrument
is
> a
> > > good one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian Lloyd
> > > brian(at)lloyd.com
> > > +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> > > +1.360.838.9669 - fax
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | pitot/static (was: max speed CJ 6A) |
> > How much error do you see in your system?
>
>Pretty much as you have determined using the GPS which, by the way, is a
>far better, smarter but less fun way to do this.
For some strange reason I think that finding things out is fun. But flying
triangles in the sky at several different indicated airspeeds can get
tedious. I just took data for the indicated airspeeds that get used most
often.
>Did the top runs at 180 kts
>ind. and estimate A/S error, from in/hg change, to be at least kts - reading
>low. I have advised local owners to stay away from the red line.
If someone has pushed Vne (indicated) in a CJ6 they are probably safer than
they think. I got surprised by a professional airshow pilot who flew my
airplane and punched through Vne on a downline faster than I could say
anything, this in spite of the airspeed indicator being properly marked and
he being properly briefed. As a result Betty has been at 230 kts indicated
with no apparent damage and no signs of flutter. Regardless, this is not a
test I ever plan to repeat.
BTW, the conversation went something like this:
"Hey X, slow down!"
"Why?"
"You are thirty knots past red line, (curse word)!"
"Oh, OK. My airplane can go this fast."
"This isn't your airplane."
>When I get my hangar queen (quiet Doug) operational it will have a totally
>different static system.
Where do you contemplate installing the static ports? I like the static
ports on the CJ6A. Sure there is some high-end error but it is quite
accurate at stall, approach, and cruise, the speed regime where CJ6As
operate most often.
In Betty I spent a lot of time plugging leaks in the pitot static
system. It probably would have been better if I had left a few leaks in
the static system but you can't certify the system for IFR flight if you do.
That being said, I like a tight pitot static system. You can actually make
the whole system airtight if you try. Disconnect all the instruments and
plug the lines. Pressurize the static system with low pressure shop air
(10 PSI or so) and start painting joints with bubble solution. BTW, do
this AFTER you have replaced all the obviously rotted rubber tubing you can
reach. The obviously rotted tubing is going to leak anyway.
Make sure you have ALL the pitot static instruments disconnected. 10 PSI
shop air will instantly destroy a VSI. Trust me on this. No need to try
it yourself. Also, after you disconnect the instruments and before you
plug everything, blow the shop air through the system to blow out any
trapped water.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lisa Kingscott" <lisa(at)kingscott1.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Yakovlev address |
Hi Doug,
I own a Yak12M built in Poland. Although built by PZL, YDB is the original
design authority for the aircraft. In order to get a UK CofA, I require as
minimum the following. Otherwise, I will only be able to get a UK permit to
fly.
Will YDB issue an internationally recognised type certificate for the
Yak12M?
In addition, I would also like to get the following from them if possible;
Type certificate.
Flight manual in English.
Maintenance manual in English.
Parts manual in English.
Any service information / bulletins.
June 05, 2002 - June 13, 2002
Yak-Archive.digest.vol-bb