Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-al

June 29, 1998 - August 04, 1998



      the bent upper longerons.
      
      Everything here is pretty much straight-forward.  Hope this helps.
      
      Dick (601-HDS)
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
<< What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? (Reference: These are used in the top spar extrusions for the outer ribs.) >> Use 3/16" drill bit. If the rivet absolutely will not fit, as it it with me in a few occassion, I used 13/64" drill bit, and those rivets were quite snug. I had 4 extra A6 rivets, so I used them to rivet the bottom gear bearing extrusions to the center wing spar. Enjoy! Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
<< Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? Out of curiosity, is it bad to over torque a bolt if it doesn't break? >> Don: See if you can get a reasonable torque wrench from a autoparts store. Can't imagine them costing that much (guess it's because I've had mine about 30 years). Just because the head doesn't break doesn't mean the bolt is not over-torqued. You could be close to stripping the threads, hence the importance of proper torquing. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Rivets
Yo! I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice any looseness? Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Rivets
> Yo! > > I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my > rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice > any looseness? > > Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS) Neither have I found any looseness in any rivets, whether hand-pulled or pneumatic. The little ball pulls in tight just like it needs to. Now there are supposed to be TWO "bulges" in the inside "shaft" of the rivet. Maybe the rivet is being pulled too tight and it's plowing the inside of the rivet outward? JKB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
<< I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. When I installed my middle top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I encountered some waviness between the rivets on the oposite side from which I started. Is this what you call "oil-canning"? If so, is there any concern with this other than not looking so good? >> Jim: Yes, this is "oil-canning" - the waviness looks like a part of an old oil can that is wavy at the seams. From what I recall, others in the list have called Zenith about it and they said that is it is of much concern, as far as structural integrity is concerned. However, it's best not to depend on what I say - you should check with Zenith for your own satisfaction. I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use .016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: RE>Re- Zenith-List- Rivets
<< All mine are tight. Shouldn't get loose anything! George Pinneo Yo! I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice any looseness? Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS) >> Thanks, George, for the reply. I presume you also used a hand-puller. It is possible that the pneumatic puller may be pulling the rivets too fast so that there may be a little debounce that causes the looseness. Dick, the satisfied hand-riveter... >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Rivets
> >> Yo! >> >> I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my >> rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice >> any looseness? >> >> Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS) I just spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he said the balls on the back of the rivets should NOT be lose. They have no affect on the rivet strength but should be tight anyway. He thinks I may have a bad batch of rivets and he is sending me some new ones to try. I took a couple of scraps and put in 5 rivets using different pressures and pull speeds and all 5 are lose? I even pulled one at a very low pressure and turned the pressure up slowly until it popped. It was even slower than a hand puller and the ball was still lose? Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet. What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the existing hole? Thanks, Bill Morelli (depressed) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Phillipe & Dick: Just thought I would contribute to this excellent email list for a change. I read that you are building the rear baggage shelf now. I generally don't recommend "beefing up" the structure of an aircraft beyond the original designer's plan, but this is definitely an area where I DO think it is necessary. The problem I found is that the forward edge of the baggage shelf (immediately behind the seat back) will bend / buckle some day when you (or your passenger) put your hand on it when entering or exiting the plane, or else when performing maintenance behind the seats. The original angle cross-piece that runs the width of the front edge of the shelf is quite thin and not a 90 degree angle (more like 120 ?) due to the angle of the seatback. This makes it even weaker than a normal "L" angle. The rest of the shelf is fine since it only sees well-distributed baggage loads, but it doesn't take much force concentrated on a hand-sized area to overload the front edge. I did not discover this until the airplane was complete, but it was a fairly easy fix. I drilled/punched out all the rivets attaching the deformed 120 degree angle cross-piece to the baggage shelf and then added a 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/8" (I think) extruded aluminum angle across the width of the cockpit below the shelf and match-drilled the empty holes to suit. This was all riveted together so the original (deformed) piece was pulled flat by the new angle which is not visible with the seats installed. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: RLucka(at)aol.com <RLucka(at)aol.com> Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Baggage floor > > ><< > I'm installing the baggage floor too. Are there any special > considerations I should be aware of? I've only got the L angles riveted > on so far, and I've trial fitted the floor to the fuselage. How much > clearance are you cutting out for the gussets that stick out (for > attaching the bent alu. tubes)? > >> >Phillipe: > >After I drilled the baggage floor onto 6F13-6 channel, which was clecoed to ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Dzus Fasteners
Hi fellow builders, I am getting close to the point where I am to do the wing locker on the outboard wing. Does anyone have suggestion or drawings on what to do with the DZUS fasteners? They look to me like one of those "Horse Shoe Nail" puzzles I had when I was a kid. My plans or draft manual doesn't say how to attatch these and I have never worked with this type of closure before. Anyhints, tips or drawings would be greatly appreciated. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
>I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the >Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use >016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the >issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear >fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place. > >Dick (601-HDS) +++ Please do, I'd like to read in more detail about this. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Contribution Page Back Online...
For those of you that were unsuccessful in connecting to the new RV and Zenith List Secure Web Contribution Page, please give it another try. I just discovered that the secure web server process wasn't running and probably didn't get started correctly on the last reboot (12 days ago). I've added some code that will continually monitor the web server processes now and automatically restart them if they stop for some reason. If you would like to make a contribution to support the continued operation of the RV and Zenith List, please visit the List Contribution page at: RV-List http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/contribution.html or Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/contribution.html Thank you for your support!! Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rivets
> >I just spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he said the balls on the back of the >rivets should NOT be lose. They have no affect on the rivet strength but >should be tight anyway. He thinks I may have a bad batch of rivets and he >is sending me some new ones to try. > >Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The >enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet. > >Thanks, >Bill Morelli (depressed) +++++ Dear Bill, Before you drill out those rivets..... I just called the EAA Technical Advisor (an engineer as well) and he said that after the ball has completed the pull it "snaps" loose from the mandral shaft (the part we find left in our rivet tool), and in no way contributes to the strength of the rivet thereafter. And, the rivet it'self has no less strength on ones that he ball may move around a little. He chuckled and said to tell you that if the ball rattling around in there really bothers you, to take a tooth pick and some epoxy and put a little dab in there on the back side. He said the reason that some rattle and some don't usually depends on the "grip range" of the rivet and the material it's pulled through. He couldn't imagine that you would consider drilling out the rivets just because the mandral ball was loose. Remember too that Nicholas said it had no effect on the rivet strength. I've heard the same "it doesn't matter after the rivet is pulled" from 3 different "experts" now. I'm sure not going to go drill out the ones that move on mine! There ya go, is the deprsssion gone..!? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Rivets
>>Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The >>enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet. >> >>Thanks, >>Bill Morelli (depressed) > >+++++ Dear Bill, Before you drill out those rivets..... The only thing that bugs me about this entire lose rivet thing is this. I spoke to Art Mitchell of Flypass in Canada. He has built many 601 nad 701 aircraft and can not recall ever having a rivet with a lose ball? The only builders that have had this happen that I have heard from so far ar myself and Fred Hulen. If it is a generic and normal occurance and since we are all riveting through the same thickness materials with the same rivets, you would think that all builders would be seeing this. I have not yet commited to drilling out the rivets. I know that the rivet strength is not affected. I am going to order a hand puller (which I want anyway) and see if the phenomenon goes away. Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Stab (still) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Rivets
<< What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the existing hole? >> Good news, Bill, I just read the message from Fred. I have removed probably 200 rivets due to errors on my part, had a twist in rear fuselage for a while. I found that the same drill I used to drill the hole would remove the head and a small pin punch would usually knock the rivet out with no further drilling. Concerning the loose pins, all my rivets were pulled pneumatically with the air pressure set just high enough to set the rivet and no loose pins. BTW, I'm doing my rudder hinges for the third time, talk about frustration. Happy building! George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuselage top skin
<< When I installed my middle top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I encountered some waviness between the rivets on the oposite side from which I started. >> This waviness you refer to is caused by the compound angles formed by bending the skin around the tube and also around the curve of the upper longeron. The skin will not lie flat without shrinking it and I didn't have the proper tooling. This was verified for me by ZAC and it appears on the factory models, so it's just something that you have to live with. I had some of the same where this skin ends at the front tube due to my rivet placement. I tried to roll the skin around the tube, but the compound angle thing confounded my attempts. Mistakes are great teachers though. Same problem happens on the cover strip at the wing splice (on the HDS only) due to the upward slope and rearward taper. This one is so bad, we are working on a composite cover strip. The oil-canning is what would occur if you hadn't installed those stiffeners in the rear fuselage skin and wing skins. Your aircraft would sound like an MRI machine run amok. George... HDS eternally at 80% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Steve, The way these Dzus fasteners are mounted on the wing baggage lockers are so that the smaller coil ends face up below the surface of the wing skin and is held there by two of the smaller size avex rivets set flat flush (not domed) from the top surface of the skin downwards. The actual quarter-turn Dzus "button" inserts through a pair of larger matched-center holes in the locker cover and the skin edge lip, between the two rivets. I also put in some small aluminum "back-ups" (small but relatively thick washers available at most hardware stores, used for increasing the load spread of pop rivets). In this application I put them as a spacer between the underside of the wingskin and the coil so the Dzus button would be tighter when installed. Try the parts for size first since there is often a lot of difference in dimension between similar dzus parts. BTW, these backups are also necessary for riveting fibreglass to metal (like the wingtips). Darryl -----Original Message----- From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com> Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 5:45 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Dzus Fasteners > >Hi fellow builders, > >I am getting close to the point where I am to do the wing locker on the >outboard wing. Does anyone have suggestion or drawings on what to do with the >DZUS fasteners? They look to me like one of those "Horse Shoe Nail" puzzles I >had when I was a kid. > >My plans or draft manual doesn't say how to attatch these and I have never >worked with this type of closure before. > >Anyhints, tips or drawings would be greatly appreciated. > >Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
Dzus also makes a plastic washer you can add under the head. It might help save the paint. The aluminum grommets would be nice, but require expensive tools for installation. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
>Dzus also makes a plastic washer you can add under the head. It might help >save the paint. ++++ This may be what I have been looking for. I haven't seen them in the sources I've checked. Are they really thin, and where can you get them? AND, does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C" snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary surface it's mounted through. I have been making some out of thin aluminum, but as many as I will need, it's a pain. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Dzus Fasteners
Date: Jun 30, 1998
> does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C" > snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary > surface it's > mounted through. I have been making some out of thin aluminum, but as > many > as I will need, it's a pain. > Fred...I have found that a very small O-ring slipped around the neck of the Dzus fastener works well to retain it in the primary material. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
> >BTW, these backups are also necessary for riveting fibreglass to metal (like >the wingtips). > >Darryl How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs of the rivets are not accessible? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Dzus fasteners
A good source for the plastic washers and anything else related to aircraft fasteners is Skybolt. Get their catalog which includes info on how to install the dzus and other fasteners. Sales at 800-223-1963 info at 407-889-2613 or on the web at skybolt.com. Tim Cotter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Subject: Loose Rivet Depression...
> Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The > enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet. > > What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the > existing hole? Bill; I don't know how much you've drilled out rivets, but it's not hard at all. I surely don't want you to be discouraged - it's easy when you get the hang of it. If you, or anyone else on the list is interested, here's how I do it: Use the same size drill bit originally required to set the rivet. Look in your toolbox and find one with a sharper point, not a shallow point. I think you're looking for something at 100-degree rake or less on the point. Start drilling the head of the rivet with light pressure, watching carefully for the head of the rivet to spin free. You want to make sure the bit remains lined up inside the hole of the rivet: don't let it walk off the hole. Using light pressure will help this. "Spinning off the head" will take only a short time, maybe 30 seconds or so. it'll come off and usually stick to the drill bit. Stop drilling and pull the little "ring" off the bit. You'll be left with the stubby nub of the rivet hanging in the hole. Using this same bit, keep going into the body of the rivet. You don't have to drill completely through the rivet. Kinda "ream" a cone-shape into the body of the rivet. Your goal is to weaken the nub of the rivet by thinning out the walls. Your drilling time here'll be 30 seconds to 1 minute depending on the bit and how sharp it is. Stop and take a look when you've got a nice cone shape. Take a pair of plain 'ol slipjoint pliers and reach around back to the ball of the rivet. Gently tug on the rivet ball and see if it'll come out. If not, go back and keep drilling on the "cone" you started in the rivet nub. You'll quickly reach a point where you can pull the nub of the rivet straight out with the pliers. Don't "work" the nub out - this'll wrinkle the original hole and stretch it out. You will reach a point where the nub will just "pop" out really easy. HANG IN THERE BILL! Don't let this rivet thing get ya down. One thing I've found the list can do is it can pick up your spirits and help you get through the tough parts: It sure has helped me! JKB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
<< ++++ This may be what I have been looking for. I haven't seen them in the sources I've checked. Are they really thin, and where can you get them? >> Got mine from Aircraft Spruce as PN GP5B on page 103 and, yes they are thin. I have used o-rings for retainers. Plan to try the snap rings on same page. George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Bill: Good Question! I did this 5 years ago and don't exactly remember how I did it, but I am sure I did it on the wing tips. I did not have the option for the fibreglass stabilizer tips when I was building, so I can't say on that. On the wing, perhaps I left the top rear wingtip skin off until last and reached through the spar tip holes? It probably isn't easy. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dzus Fasteners > > >How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs >of the rivets are not accessible? > >Bill Morelli >HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
Date: Jul 01, 1998
> > > does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C" > > snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary > > surface it's Best answer is don't use Dzus. I have some in the engline cowl and have to watch like a hawk I don't lose them in the grass. They are supposed to come with clips to retain them but didn't. Someone gave me some plastic washers but they were wrong size. Airlok ??? I think? are far better as used in Cessnas. They have a flush tapered philips head and the screw has a short coiled spring with a metal anchor bit about 1" deep on the inner side. I have them all round the firewall and can put the cowling on in 2 sec. I use dzus horizontally because they are not so deep, but they are a pain. Bernie g ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
Date: Jul 01, 1998
> From: Darryl West <rdwest(at)ibm.net> > I read that you are building the rear baggage shelf now. I generally don't > recommend "beefing up" the structure of an aircraft beyond the original > designer's plan, but this is definitely an area where I DO think it is > necessary. Heartily agree, Mine originally got bent by the electrician and also a female Mech.eng student who both insisted on sitting on it, but then it buckled again simply by my leaning back on it, the ply not being too rigid. As well as parking their oversize bums on it, people also tend to lean weight on a hand on it when getting in so a bit of reinforcing angle is weight well spent. Bernie G. thing, if a flat panel bulges somewhat it will flick in and out under different air pressure when you are flying and make "Boing-Boing" noises, which does not make for a happy pilot. So try to make panels dead flat without bulges running from corner to corner etc, it this happens you may have to stiffen with extra angle. The 601 rarely "oil cans" as the turtle back in the fuselage stresses the side panels, but it can be very bad in the 701 which has a square rear fuselange, makes it quite noisy especially in a bit of turbulence. Crinkling of edges, eg at rear of cockpit is rarther unsightly but does not cause structural,problems, wipe in a bit of expoxy putty and or put in extra rivets. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: TEST
Date: Jun 30, 1998
TEST Darryl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: TEST
> > > >TEST > >Darryl +++++ High Test or regular Sir? sorry, couldn't help myself.... Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Hi to all ! I have (2) Bitmap drawings for use with any picture editor (such as Microsoft Paint that comes with Windows 95). They are originally from Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to more accurately reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent is to have a blank prototype for builders to easily try out many different paint schemes for comparison. The "fill" function in MSPaint will quickly fill in whatever colors you like, and even text for registation numbers/ etc. Send me a direct email request stating which type (-HD, or -HDS, or both) you want, and I will send it to your direct email (each file is 874 KB and takes about 3 minutes to download on a 31200 bps connection). Darryl PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> with any picture editor (such as Microsoft Paint that comes with Windows 95). They are originally from Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to more accurately reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent is to have a blank prototype for builders to easily try out many different paint schemes for comparison. The "fill" function in MSPaint will quickly fill in whatever colors you like, and even text for registation numbers/ stating which type (-HD, or -HDS, or both) you want, and I will send it to your direct email (each file is 874 KB and takes about 3 minutes to download on a 31200 bps ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 1998
Subject: Re: Zenith-List:Grass Landing Strips
Fellow Zodiac Builders and Flyers: Although I still have a long way to go to completing my 601-HDS, I am exploring an opportunity to acquire some property for a future grass landing strip. In working with the Dept. of Aviation,State of Virginia, I was asked by the examiner to acquire some information to help him evaluate the property. For those of you currently flying a 601-HDS, what has been your experience in the required distance to land and takeoff in 4" grass? This particular property is about 1250' above sea level. Another question was how much distance to clear a 50' object. Any info you guys can offer will be gratefully appreciated. One other question.......can Bernie explain what was that female Mech. eng. student doing in the luggage compartment in the first place??? Curious. Cliff Martin Zodiac 601-HDS #6-3694 Richmond,Virginia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Canning
> >Some questions & answers were... >> I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. When I installed my middle >> top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I >> Jim: >> >> Yes, this is "oil-canning" - the waviness looks like a part of an old oil >can >> that is wavy at the seams. > > I would not say this is what is generally meant. When you press the >bottom of an oil can it is made purposely with a dome in in it so that when >you press it in it forces oil out, when you do it goes "Boing-Boing". > Bernie G. > This precise term was used to explain the tendency of Tomahawks to go into unrecoverable spins. The definition in this instance was a deformation of the wing in flying conditions, at least at times. The Tomahawk had a rigid wing design during certification, and then the production model was built with a softer wing. It's more of a design consideration, unless the skin and wing are assembled wrong. But, yes, there is a potential problem, obviously. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Bearings
I'm adding 1/2 inch nylon bearings to the bottom of my mains. Will this put to much stress on the bungees streching them the extra 1/2 inch? Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Bearings
Date: Jul 01, 1998
> From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net> > I'm adding 1/2 inch nylon bearings to the bottom of my mains. Will this > put to much stress on the bungees streching them the extra 1/2 inch? Missapprehension! The Nylon goes on externally under steel outer "box". It will restrict the 4 in of travel by 1/2 in but have never seen main gear legs move more than and inch or two anyway and will give something a bit softer to "bottom" on if you ever really do bang her down. Nothing has to be stretched. Steel on steel must give out a loud "clang", anyone achieved this? Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Oil Canning
Date: Jul 01, 1998
George Sears says... > This precise term (Oil Canning) was used to explain the tendency of Tomahawks to > go into unrecoverable spins. The definition in this instance was a > deformation of the wing in flying conditions, at least at times. So THATS why my poor Instructor used to go into a screaming fit whenever I kicked poor old WAB into a sideslip! I thought it was because the T-tail fell off?? I guess it also explains why Tomahawks have to have wings replaced after 8000hrs. Ardmore Flying School have one, EVB which is supposed to have done 18000 hrs! Means my ULA has only 17,850 to go! Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1998
From: Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
> > How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs > of the rivets are not accessible? > > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > > Bill; With tips romoved and the help of clecos,I bonded (Glued) the backups to the inside of the fiberglass wingtips to keep them in place for the riveting process(Try to keep the sticky stuff off the cleco). :-) Robin Gould HD,San Jose,CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Bernie: email problems?
Date: Jul 01, 1998
Bernie, I tried to send both drawings to you earlier today and got the following email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for some reason. I sent another message without the attachments this time: same result. Is the address correct? The original message was received at Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:04:12 GMT from slip129-37-162-72.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.162.72] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Error 281) Darryl and got the following email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for some reason. I sent another message without the attachments this time: same result. ----- The Host ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings
Daryl, Thank you for the 3 view drawings of the 601. I've already got several paint schemes worked out. THank you again. Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 1998
From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com>
Subject: Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings
>Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to more accurately >reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent is to have Those original brochure drawings are pretty crude, which is one reason I haven't used them. I'd sure appreciate having a copy of your HDS version, whenever you get around to it. Peter Chapman 601 HDS project, ready for Oshkosh 99?? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com>
Subject: Elevator Piano Hinge
Last night I attached the elevator to the horiz stab. The hinge was riveted to the stab., and the elevator is riveted on the bottom, clecoed on top. To minimize the risk of misalignment, I decided to drill through the hinge/elevator with the hinge installed as it would be in the finished assembly. After drilling, I pulled the pin out to deburr. When I tried to put the pin back in, it was very difficult to convince it to go in. I tried tapering the tip of the pin and spraying silicon lube on the hinge. Still it goes in very hard. However, the elevator moves very freely with the pin installed. Is this normal? It seems to me that this pin will have to be taken out for painting, and possibly for maintenance down the road...and it won't be much fun. What are some thoughts? Thanks! Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Piano Hinge
Date: Jul 02, 1998
>tried tapering the tip of the pin and spraying silicon lube on the hinge. >Still it goes in very hard. However, the elevator moves very freely with >the pin installed. Is this normal? It seems to me that this pin will have >to be taken out for painting, and possibly for maintenance down the >road...and it won't be much fun. > >What are some thoughts? Thanks! Greg, I remember when working on my elevator / stablizer that the piano pin wasn't the easiest to install when everything was attached. Elevator moves just fine though. I mentally thought it would be a pain to take out and all, but wasn't going to worry about it. Just make sure that the elevator is free moving and that you don't have un-necessary pressure / friction areas. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS Working on Outboard Speed Wings - http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Elevator Piano Hinge
When installing the hinge on stab and elevator I realized that there was sure to be some strain in places because my (scratch built) parts (mostly the elevator skin) were not quite as straight as I would have liked. I used the Mk 1 eyeball and tape method to get the hinge halves as straight as possible before drilling. On hinge pin insertion I had a problem at one point and eased two or three rivet holes oval with a rat-tailed file to let the hinge move out slightly. This solved the problem. The hinge pivots reasonably smoothly. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Building rear fuselage from plans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Bernie: email problems?
Darryl West wrote: > > > Bernie, > > I tried to send both drawings to you earlier today and got the following > email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for some reason. > I sent another message without the attachments this time: same result. > Is the address correct? > > The original message was received at Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:04:12 GMT > from slip129-37-162-72.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.162.72] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 550 ... Host unknown (Error 281) > > Darryl > > and got the > following email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for > some > reason. I sent another message without the attachments this time: same > result. > ----- The > Host Bernie; I too have experienced this when trying to contact you directly. could you please confirm you correct e-mail address. Thanks, Grant Corriveau gfcorriv(at)total.net 601hds50% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Rivets
<< Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet. What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the existing hole? Thanks, Bill Morelli (depressed) >> Bill - am sorry about your misfortune. So far in my project, I have only had one bad rivet (it popped too soon and the ball was just barely expanded). When I remove an A5 rivet, I drill out the head using #20 drill (same size as you would for A5's). Once the head spins off, I stop drilling. If I can reach the ball, I use a pair of pliers to carefully twist off the ball. Using this method, I have never deformed the hole. If I am not able to reach the ball, I drill it out using a smaller drill (#30) and then gently tap it out with a hammer and punch. Again, I've never deformed the hole with this method. I hope this helps. Take a break, take your wife out to dinner and to a movie. Later, you'll get over it and be back at the project with a relaxed frame of mind. It works for me... Dick (601-HDS, just installed the lower extrusions under the forward fuselage - what a job!) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
<< I did not discover this until the airplane was complete, but it was a fairly easy fix. I drilled/punched out all the rivets attaching the deformed 120 degree angle cross-piece to the baggage shelf and then added a 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/8" (I think) extruded aluminum angle across the width of the cockpit below the shelf and match-drilled the empty holes to suit. This was all riveted together so the original (deformed) piece was pulled flat by the new angle which is not visible with the seats installed. Darryl >> Thanks, Darryl, for this piece of information. I, too, noticed that it would be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the front part of the shelf nicely. Will keep your suggestion in mind when I complete the fuselage. Again, Thanx. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
<< >I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the >Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use >016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the >issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear >fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place. > >Dick (601-HDS) +++ Please do, I'd like to read in more detail about this. Fred >> Hello Fred: The issue with the article is #99 (March/April 1997). Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Elevator Horn
Has anyone or everyone used the template for aligning the elevator horns shown on page T-28 of the elevator manual? I made the template but if I use it, it will line up my upper horn so that it hangs over the hinge on one end and falls short of the center channel at the other end!! Regards, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont working elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote: I, too, noticed that it would > be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back > channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until > then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear > upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the > front part of the shelf nicely. > Trust me, it's only stiff enough if you never push hard on it or sit on it. (ask me how I know) The addition of the 1/8 angle is easy to do and really should be part of the plans. If you put it in, you'll never know how much it helps. If you don't, I can just about guarantee you'll wish you had. James Neely, Captain, Essex Air Force I -currently down for repairs due to oil pressure problem 8-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com>
Subject: Re: Dzus Fasteners
Bill, I glued 1/2" wide strips of .025 aluminum on the inside of the fiberglass tips to provide the backup. It was alot easier than gluing washers!! Paul Perry 601 HDTD (Just got a Holley carb for my Suba'...cant wait to hear it run!) | How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip | rivets when the backs | of the rivets are not accessible? | | Bill Morelli | HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings
<< I have (2) Bitmap drawings for use with any picture editor >> Unable to e-mail direct. Please send the drawings of the HDS when you have the chance. Thanks George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Elevator Piano Hinge
Greg, On those occasions when we have to pull the pin out of a continous hinge, on reinstall, we point the tip and clamp the other end to a drill motor. In as much as the pin is aluminum, you will probably need an extra set of hands to support the pin during insertion. As for the silicon, be sure and use a good silicon cleaner on the surface before painting, or you will have a bunch of fisheyes looking back at you!! Cliff Martin #6-3694 Still in a holding pattern ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)forbin.com>
Subject: Elevator Hinge
Thanks for all of your input in this area. I figured-out my problem today while talking with a coworker. I clecoed the hinge to the elevator before inserting the pin. The clecoes must have been creating a slight amount of misalignment because after I removed most of them, the pin slid in readily, and i had no problem re-clecoing the hinge with the pin installed. Tail is almost done! yippie!! Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Horn
>Has anyone or everyone used the template for aligning the elevator horns >shown on page T-28 of the elevator manual? > >I made the template but if I use it, it will line up my upper horn so that >it hangs over the hinge on one end and falls short of the center channel at >the other end!! > +++ Bill, If you are refering to the fact that the top elevator horn will be forward of the hinge line and the lower one will be behind the hinge line... that is correct, because that will put these two horns aligned and aproximately equal distance each to the lower control stick pivot point, which is considerably BELOW the level of the elevator and horizontal stabalizer. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 03, 1998
From: Bruce Bockius <elrond(at)europa.com>
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
> RLucka(at)aol.com wrote: > I, too, noticed that it would > > > be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back > > channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until > > then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear > > upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the > > front part of the shelf nicely. For what it's worth I used a 1/16" x 3/4" x 3/4" 6061-T6 alum angle stiffener purchased from the local Ace hardware store and it has proven strong enough (and half the weight!). -Bruce 601-HD 90% done Bruce Bockius elrond(at)europa.com Hillsboro, OR, USA http://www.europa.com/~elrond ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Compasses
Date: Jul 04, 1998
To those who were anxious, my compass is an Airpath. Weather a bit broken today with scattered showers so went up to 6000 above it and stooged round for an hour or two. Have concluded it is impossible to do compass turns and I have spent about $400 on getting it checked, rebalanced, swung etc etc. Doing rate 1 turns it either stays locked in one position, eg E, for most of the turn and then goes wild, or else runs ahead. It can go off in a wild lurch and do a 360 deg turn. However, if you time the turns, eg, for a moderate turn, count 10 sec for 90deg, 20 sec for 180 deg, 40 sec for 360 deg, and roll out after the time has lapsed, it settles down quite quickly. Or keep a check on the sun. But no matter how slowly it is almost impossible do a turn on compass only. Yet it is quite possible on a C152 or 172 using compass only???? Don't understand this. The airpath does not stay horizontal but banks with the plane so that when banking to the south the needle is parallel to the line of magnetic dip and when banking north is a right angles to it so has virtually no torque moment at all, but then neither does any other compass. Will anybody flying some other machine try a few compass turns? Where is Peter Chapman, he ought to have a good explanation? After 160hrs the 912 is running very smoothly, May be partly due to recent change to Sae 0-30 synthetic oil, poss also realignment of prop as well as is now run in, but almost total lack of vibration in cruise. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RUSSTCLARK(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 04, 1998
Subject: rear zee angle
I am now installing the rear zee on the o/b wings . When I clamped the rear zee top flange to the top flange of the rear rib the web of the rear zee did not lay flat against the rear rib flange. It looked to me that the angle of the rear zee bend was way off. the drawings call for 100 degree bend my rear ribs are at 100 degrees found my rear zee to be at 106 degrees. If i use them as is my top skin will not lay flat. I do not have the tools to bend them to 100 . Any one have any suggestions? Russ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 04, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: rear zee angle
> I am now installing the rear zee on the o/b wings . When I clamped the rear >zee top flange to the top flange of the rear rib the web of the rear zee did >not lay flat against the rear rib flange. It looked to me that the angle of >the rear zee bend was way off. the drawings call for 100 degree bend my rear >ribs are at 100 degrees found my rear zee to be at 106 degrees. If i use >them as is my top skin will not lay flat. I do not have the tools to bend them >to 100 . Any one have any suggestions? > >Russ ++++ Russ, Mine were off too. You will find that almost all of your bent pieces will vary from the ends compared to the center of the piece, an inherant problem with the "braking process" I told. Very early on I purchased one of the hand seamers (part #TP44-0, page 138 of Wicks 98 catalog), and I couldn't be without it. Not that all these pieces need to be perfect, because many of them that are "close but not quite on" will be pulled into the requred shape when you apply clecos and pull rivets, but you will be able to sort of work your way along the "L's" and other parts and give them a little help coming on into the correct angle needed. Plus, there will be some small parts that you will need to fabricate that you'll need to be bent some way or other. Have a safe 4th! Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jul 04, 1998
Subject: Archive Search - New Feature!
Listers, I've added another new output feature to the Archive Search Engine. There are now 3 ways to return hit data. These include: 2 Frame, Indexed (NEW): This output option will split the browser window into 2 frames. The upper frame will contain the usual search engine controls. The lower frame will contain an index listing of all matching subject lines. The first time a subject line is clicked upon, a new browser window will be opened and the message text displayed. Subsequent subject line clicks will return message text in the same new output broswer window. 3 Frame, Indexed: This output option will split the browser window into 3 frames. The upper frame will contain the usual search engine controls. The middle frame will contain an index listing of all matching subject lines. When subject lines in the middle frame are clicked upon, the corresponding message text will be displayed in the lower frame. All Msgs, No Indexes: This output option will split the browser window into 2 framess. The lower frame will contain all of the matching messages. If the subject line one any one of the matching messages is clicked upon, a new browser window will be opened and that particular message displayed for easy printing or saving. Don't forget that the size ratio between the frames can be user-adjusted by simply click and draging on the frame border! The Search Engine URL is: http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html Give it a try and let me know what you think. Have Fun, Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 04, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Nicholas' address and fax attempt
Nicholas, Last week (?) I sent a fax re. a problem with my leading edge spar "L" angles. You had problems connecting to my fax/computer. Sorry to cause you problems! Fax/computer software is handy for sending but not so much for receiving. Could by please try again at the following number: 514 620-3981 Could you also send me your e-mail address again. Thanks. Thanks again Grant Corriveau gfcorriv(at)total.net 601hds50% #6-2220 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net>
Subject: Trim tab installation
Date: Jul 05, 1998
Hate to appear ignorant, but... How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is scant. In particular... 1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator? 2) Is the control horn go up or down? 3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires? Thanks! 601HDS/Stratus Subaru/Rudder done (thanks to the workshop) John Karnes karnes(at)zoomnet.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Trim tab installation
Date: Jul 05, 1998
>Hate to appear ignorant, but... >How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is >scant. In particular... >1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator? >2) Is the control horn go up or down? >3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires? > >Thanks! >601HDS/Stratus Subaru/Rudder done (thanks to the workshop) John, There are a couple good pictures of the elevator trim tab servo location and the associated horn on my website. There located in the Photo Gallery section @ http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS - Working on the outboard speed wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 05, 1998
Subject: Re: Trim tab installation
<< How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is scant. In particular... 1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator?>> It is inside the upper skin with an inspection plate on the lower surface << 2) Is the control horn go up or down?>> Down << 3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires? >> I ran my wiring through the elevator, into the horizontal stabilizer and into the fuselage after it was built. I don't suggest this. Wire the servo before closing the skin. Someone here recently mentioned a method of wiring where the wires run on top of the surfaces and are hidden by the fiberglass "shoe". In any event, if you care to test the servo before the elevator is buttoned up, the battery from a 9 volt cordless drill works fine although a bit slow. Connected to the two white wires, it will allow you to run the servo to it's extremes. Be careful when riveting or drilling the servo, as I understand it is quite fragile. I drilled mine out for # 6 hardware because I was afraid to squeeze rivets into the plastic. BTW, the MAC G5 stick grip makes a nice addition if you are adding the roll trim also. Enjoy. George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 05, 1998
Subject: NSI
Hi Listers, I know this is a sore subject for some, but I need some help. A local builder is using an NSI engine in his Zodiac and the workmanship is absolutely outstanding. Also, he only has the nicest things to say about the company. All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do good work. My feelings of negativity are further enhanced by the fact that I can't seem to find NSI on my own. I know all I have to do is ask my friend, but tonight I would do a web search and I have been unable to locate anything. Can anyone out there provide a phone number and a contact at NSI. I would really like to talk to them. My friend says they are past most of their trouble and are caught up on back orders. But I am a little confused and don't know what to believe. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 05, 1998
From: Jim Campbell <usav8r(at)gate.net>
Subject: Re: NSI
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote: > > Hi Listers, > > I know this is a sore subject for some, but I need some help. A local builder > is using an NSI engine in his Zodiac and the workmanship is absolutely > outstanding. Also, he only has the nicest things to say about the company. > All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do > good work. That sums it up only partially... there are a number of complaints involving the prop and reduction units they produce as well. > My feelings of negativity are further enhanced by the fact that I can't seem > to find NSI on my own. I know all I have to do is ask my friend, but tonight > I would do a web search and I have been unable to locate anything. They've kept a low profile since they started having problems and a number of magazines will not accept their ads until they pay past-due bills. > Can anyone out there provide a phone number and a contact at NSI. I would > really like to talk to them. My friend says they are past most of their > trouble and are caught up on back orders. But I am a little confused and > don't know what to believe. They're listed in the phone book... but good luck getting a hold of anyone... unless you have money to spend. They will, apparently talk to new customers but a number of folks indicate that the communication is curtailed dramatically the minute they have your money and you have any kind of complaint.As to current deliveries... That is not what we understand... we have heard from a number of people that are still owed product. A story on this mess, written by one of this company's victims is on the schedule for our next issue. -- Jim Campbell, Publisher, US Aviator Copyright 1998, All Rights Reserved http://www.av8r.net http://www.kindredspirit.com http://www.sportplane.com "To sin by silence when they should protest, makes cowards of men." -Abraham Lincoln ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zenith Aircraft Company" <info(at)zenithair.com>
Date: Jul 06, 1998
Subject: Re: zenith-list-request
Sorry, we don't run the zenith-list email list... to unsubscribe go to www.matronics.com or email "zenith-list-request(at)matronics.com" and put the word Please contact us should you require any additional information. Regards, Zenith Aircraft Company info(at)zenithair.com http://www.zenithair.com (573) 581-9000 (Mon-Fri, 8-5 Central) (573) 581-0011 Fax Write us at: Zenith Aircraft Company Mexico Memorial Airport, PO Box 650 Mexico, Missouri 65265-0650 USA Zenair: Quality Light Aircraft Since 1974 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Rivet Saga
I continued investigation of lose A5 rivets I had previously reported where the pulling mechanism that snaps off and stays with the rivet has some play in it. I have only seen this on A5 rivets. I spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he decided to send me new rivets. I just received the new shipment of A5 rivets from ZAC. The phenomenon is still there with the new rivets? I contacted a fellow builder, Bruce Bokius, to have him try the following: Pull some new rivets and check some that are already installed by taking a tool that will fit in the front hole of the A5 rivet such as an awl or small drill bit. With this tool, gently push from the front through the hole against the snapped off piece and then push on the back (ball) with your finger. Pushing gently back and forth see if any movement is felt. Well, Bruce did find the movement also. You have to go and look for it!!! Bruce found that it seemed to depend on the thickness of the material that was riveted. If anyone else would care to check some rivets with this method and let me know if you also find this movement, I would like to pass this along to ZAC. I had been told by a couple of sources that these rivets are water tight. I think not!! Any help would be appreciated. Though this is in no way a structural problem, it slightly annoys me that the rivets (like in the wing) may leak water. Regards, Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 1998
From: Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NSI
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote: > All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do > good work. The best designed and built engine in the world will do you no good at all if you send money and never receive it. I recommend looking into Stratus. Nothing but good reputation so far. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Rivet Saga
Bill Morelli wrote: > If anyone else would care to check some rivets with this method and let me > know if you also find this movement, I would like to pass this along to > ZAC. I had been told by a couple of sources that these rivets are water > tight. I think not!! > > Any help would be appreciated. Though this is in no way a structural > problem, it slightly annoys me that the rivets (like in the wing) may leak > water. Bill, You have to ask yourself a few questions here: a How often will you fly in rain? In 60 hours I have done it once, just to see how the vis was affected (not much, but then again it wasn't raining very hard either) b Aren't you going to put the drains in? (you won't pass final inspection if you don't) c How much water will the rivets leak, even parked out in a storm..'specially if you paint it? BTW, mine don't leak, then again, I didn't check to see if they're loose either, also I have never had reason to worry about it d Do you trust the design and the factory advice? If not, you've got the wrong plane. It's my understanding that the loads on these rivets were calculated without the steel mandrels in. Any strength they add is strictly "baksheesh". You will never finish your project, or enjoy it if you let stuff like this hold you up for long....hmmmm, of course some really enjoy getting worked up and chasing this stuff down. If so, enjoy, don't let clowns like me rain on your parade. Regards, James Neely, Captain, Essex Air Force I ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Rivet Saga
>If so, enjoy, don't let clowns like me rain on your >parade. > >Regards, >James Neely, >Captain, Essex Air Force I James, The only reason I got into this rivet thing in the first place is that Flypass (the Canadian Zodiac Dealer where I purchased my kit) and Nicholas at ZAC both said that none of the rivets should be lose? I and they were concerned that I had either some bad rivets or bad puller or whatever. It was ZAC's idea to try new rivets. If lose is normal, I don't have a problem with that. Until Bruce checked some of his, It looked like it was only happening to me. By the way, it has not slowed me down at all, I'm building away as quick as I can. The building is actually quite enjoyable. Thanks, Bill Morelli ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 1998
From: Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Rotax 912 problem
A friend with 200 hours on his 912 has spent months trying to resolve a problem. Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm. Opening the thottle, everything goes well until approximately 3500rpm where it begins to stumble and rpms drop off until the throttle is opened enough to "jump" above 4000 rpm when normal response resumes on up to the top end. Carb adjustment and balance is where he has spent the most effort without effect. Any suggestions? Thanks Tim Cotter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 07, 1998
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 problem
<< Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm. >> I don't know a darn thing about Rotax engines or Bing carbs, but if I ran into this on a customer's car, I would first identify the offending system. Put a timing light on each plug wire and run it up. Ruling out an ignition problem, it sounds like a carburetor jet problem. Good luck George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Baggage floor
Date: Jul 07, 1998
> James Neely, > Captain, > Essex Air Force I -currently down for repairs due to oil pressure > problem 8-) > James... I am curious about what problems you are having with oil pressure? If I remember correctly, you are running a Subaru. I am running the Stratus version of the Subaru and have not been real happy with the oil pressure I get once the engine comes up to temp in cruise. Any info. will be appreciated. Thanks, Jim Weston CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
Weston, Jim wrote: > James... I am curious about what problems you are having with > oil pressure? If I remember correctly, you are running a Subaru. I am > running the Stratus version of the Subaru and have not been real happy > with the oil pressure I get once the engine comes up to temp in cruise. > Any info. will be appreciated. > The guy who rebuilt the engine didn't install the clamp that holds in the oil pickup tube, (of course, that's MY fault, occording to him....well we'll see how much he charges to fix it). Anyway, for reasons I won't go into here, I was convinced that the pressure gauge was faulty and flew it for 75 minutes w/ zero pressure. No temp problems, engine ran fine, etc. Is being rebuilt now, and I have learned a few lessons from the experience. As to your problem. I would talk to Reiner about it, and trust what he says. My information is that the engines don't maintain high pressure readiings once they get going....normally drop to 15 - 20 lb at cruise and that this is fiine. In fact I have heard that if you are getting any reading at all above, say 10lb, all is well. Again, talk to Reiner. He will give you the straight dope. He has no reason to allow you to wreck your engine. Also he has an excellent reputation. I have learned from experience that you can drive yourself nuts, runnig around listening to every Tom, Dick, and Harry, (me included). I hope this is of some use James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Westridge" <westridge(at)cconnect.net>
Date: Jul 07, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
Hi fellow builders, I'm in need of advice and assistance about ordering materials. Over two months ago I ordered my fuselage metal from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (sheet / bar / angle / some misc tube material) EAST and have yet to get any confirmed status of intent to fill the order. Every time I call to check, about every third week, the customer service folks tell me they'll check and get back. NO CALL so i call again and get IT'S NOT IN STOCK NOW. So I check again and they say, IT"S HERE BUT I DON"T UNDERSTAND WHY YOUR ORDER IS NOT FILLED. Then I get OH WE'RE OUT OF STOCK AGAIN. Some one please tell me there is a better place to get my order filled. I tried Air Parts inc. but they did not have the items I wanted (type and spec metal). ANY IDEAS?????? Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? Thanks, Dave W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
Date: Jul 07, 1998
>Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? Dave, My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards. The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets meet their rated specs. Even though it may be cheaper to buy the rivets elsewhere, I wouldn't risk it. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
>ANY IDEAS?????? > >Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? Dave, I agree with Don, I would buy the rivets from ZAC. As far as your other problem, I have a Wick's Aircraft Supply Catalog and it seems to have everything you may need. I have only purchased zinc chromate from them that they promply shipped. If you are interested in contacting them to see what they have available here is the info: Phone 1-800-221-9425 (orders) e-mail aircraft(at)wicks.com internet address www.wicks.com/aircraft Good Luck Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kjl33u(at)ezy.net
Date: Jul 07, 1998
Subject: Re:pitot-static system
I am trying to find the best location to install my pitot tube in my HDS wings with leading edge fuel tanks,any suggestions?? Ken Lennox Salisbury, MD Tail group completed, skinning the O/B wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
Don Honabach wrote: > > >Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? > > Dave, > > My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific > factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently > only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards. > The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's > standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets > meet their rated specs. > This is Zenair's story. I was told by a supplier in Mississauga that they supplied Zenair in Midland. I ordered the same kind from this supplier for 1/2 the Zenair price. (this makes sense when you realize that in retail, you should realize 100% profit on and item if you are to survive) A nervous engineer in the Essex Zenair Force had the rivets tested. They met or exceeded Zenair's requirement as stated in one of the newletters. Beware of snake oil and secret ingredients, but do what makes you feel safe. I have no problems with my rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret that their pricing often borders on outrageous. IMHO anyway James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 problem
Date: Jul 07, 1998
Tim: I have over 100 hours on my Rotax 912UL and so far, no problems. There is an advisory out regarding isolated cases of seizure due to faulty rocker arms on engines from serial # 4,005.196 to 4,400.408 only (reference Kitplanes Magazine / Engine Beat article June/98 issue). I have heard that you must be careful how you run the fuel vent / overflow tubes from the 2 carbs. The stock engine comes with a 4" long clear plastic tube that is pinched between the lower carb body and the retaining clip for the lower carb body. This should not be left as-is (pinched and too short). You should run about a 8" long vent hose away from the muffler area, but NOT outside the bottom of the cowling (or even close to the cowling exit). This line is also a pressure equalizer for the carb, and I have heard that the airflow past the cowling exit has caused a vacuum effect that shut down fuel flow as takeoff airspeed was reached. I have never noticed any fuel coming from these hoses, but if you are worried, just run the short vent tubes into a much larger diameter tube with a gap for air to equalize nearby the carb. The larger tube could then be run down and outside. Other possibilities: If the propeller blades are pitched too steep, or not equally to each other, or not mass-balanced, the vibration could cause a rough run over a specific rpm range. Maybe too obvious: are both chokes fully disengaged (mine runs very rough with the chokes on) ? Good luck and please let us know how it is solved. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com> Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 5:23 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 problem > >A friend with 200 hours on his 912 has spent months trying to resolve a >problem. Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm. >Opening the thottle, everything goes well until approximately 3500rpm where >it begins to stumble and rpms drop off until the throttle is opened enough >to "jump" above 4000 rpm when normal response resumes on up to the top >end. Carb adjustment and balance is where he has spent the most effort >without effect. Any suggestions? Thanks > >Tim Cotter > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 1998
From: Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
> > > >Don Honabach wrote: > >> >> >Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? >> >> Dave, >> >> My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific >> factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently >> only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards. >> The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's >> standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets >> meet their rated specs. >> > >This is Zenair's story. I was told by a supplier in Mississauga that they >supplied Zenair in Midland. I ordered the same kind from this supplier for 1/2 >the Zenair price. (this makes sense when you realize that in retail, you should >realize 100% profit on and item if you are to survive) A nervous engineer in the >Essex Zenair Force had the rivets tested. They met or exceeded Zenair's >requirement as stated in one of the newletters. Beware of snake oil and secret >ingredients, but do what makes you feel safe. I have no problems with my >rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret that >their pricing often borders on outrageous. >IMHO anyway >James I agree with James , I got my Avex rivets from a local fastener place . The 5,000 1/8" Avex rivets cost me $112.50 as where Zenith wanted $400.00 !!! ....Tom Decker ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
Date: Jul 07, 1998
>rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret that >their pricing often borders on outrageous. >IMHO anyway >James James, Just didn't think it would be that easy to find out who was supplying Zenith. In short, didn't think the effort, time, money equation would work out. Also, since this type of project is total unfamiliar to me, it is nice not having to worry about whether or not this is the right rivet, part, etc. As a side issue, I deal all day with salespersons that would just assume lie as tell the truth. It may be the industry that I'm in, but products are re-labeled and counterfited all the time. So, I don't tend to be very trustworthy when buying. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS Working on outboard speed wings w/ LE Fuel Tanks http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: HELP - I'm frustrated
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Dave...I live near Aircraft Spruce East and stop by to pick up parts from time to time. Anything that they are out of stock on seems to have to come thru the California store. They really can get mixed up some times. Anyway, I have found that if you ask for Sandy, she is very helpful and seems to know the ropes. If you explain your ongoing problem, I bet she can get it straightened out. Jim Weston CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. > > > Hi fellow builders, I'm in need of advice and assistance about > ordering materials. Over two months ago I ordered my fuselage metal > from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (sheet / bar / angle / some misc > tube material) EAST and have yet to get any confirmed status of > intent to fill the order. Every time I call to check, about every > third week, the customer service folks tell me they'll check and get > back. NO CALL so i call again and get IT'S NOT IN STOCK > NOW. So I check again and they say, IT"S HERE BUT I DON"T UNDERSTAND > WHY YOUR ORDER IS NOT FILLED. Then I get OH WE'RE OUT OF STOCK AGAIN. > > Some one please tell me there is a better place to get my order > filled. I tried Air Parts inc. but they did not have the items I > wanted (type and spec metal). > > ANY IDEAS?????? > > Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets???? > > Thanks, Dave W > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com>
Subject: "L" Angle Bending
I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there a clever way to do this that I am not seeing? The only idea I can come up with is to make plywood forms to match the ribs with reliefs in them to allow the material that's being bent somewhere to go. Also, thanks to all that responded about my elevator hinge problem. The tail is complete, and I'm very satisfied with it. Greg F. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Subject: Re: "L" Angle Bending
Greg; Easy! Get a pair of fluting pliers. You can use these to make a crimp in the "vertical" part of the stiffening "L" angle (the face that sticks out off the inside of the skin). When you've got the wing framed in, cut each stiffener to length. You can do this by holding it roughly in position where it'll go and cut it about 10mm shorter than the space from the rear zee to the spar. Now hold the L-angle up to the edge of the next-larger rear rib and use your fluting pliers to make crimps in the same locations as on the rib you are comparing against. The resulting L-angles will actually be slightly "flatter" than you need. This is ok, the flutes will allow the stiffener to flex to the right concavity. Good luck chief; JKB > I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are > added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there > a clever way to do this that I am not seeing? *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
In a message dated 7/8/98 2:16:21 AM Mountain Daylight Time, tdecker(at)spectra.net writes: << I agree with James , I got my Avex rivets from a local fastener place . The 5,000 1/8" Avex rivets cost me $112.50 as where Zenith wanted $400.00 !!! ....Tom Decker >> Here's wishy washy Steve's opinion.... I agree with both Don and Tom. But I am more in Don's boat. Tom is very technically proficient so he knows what he is buying. Don and I are first timers in this home building thing and we are just learing about the hows and the whys. It is worth it for me on this project to pay Zenairs price. Next time maybe, when I know a little more I'll be a little more willing to find my own materials. Tom has helped with numerous issues and the most valuable resource out there is you fellow builders. I hope over the years I can gain the knowledge to pass it along like Tom. But in the mean time I'm stuck paying the prices subjected to a novice. But please folks, being a business owner, Their prices are not "outrageous". I'd be willing to bet they pay more in liability insurance than many of us make in a year. They have to keep inventory on their shelves instead of keeping the money in their bank or pockets. And let's not even talk about payroll taxes, health insurance, PAYROLL!!!!, employee incentives, rent, utilities, tools, materials, advertising, tevchnical support, research and development, etc, etc, etc...... Not only that, they deserve to make a "decent" living for themselves and their families. I think sometimes they charge too much for stuff too, but then I remember what it's like to run my business and I am just glad I won't have to be paying 15 to 20K for a 30 year old 152 with some huge number of hours on the engine and airframe. Last time I checked Cessna's web page, a 172 is going for $168,000 for a full IFR package. Now that is Outrageous!! Steve My 2 cents (for what it's worth) 6-3737 tail surfaces complete, working on outboard wings. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Subject: Re: "L" Angle Bending
In a message dated 7/8/98 7:02:00 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com writes: << Is there a clever way to do this that I am not seeing >> Hi Greg, Go ahead and rivet the top skin and then turn the wing over and support the z as stated in the draft manual fom Zenith. Then lay your staright L Angles on the pre drilled rivet line and you will see the obvious curve that needs to be formed. Use a crimping tool and from the center out gently bend the L angle to form the curve of the wing. Very easy to do, and works like a charm. Steve If you'd ever like to call e-mail me back at slf998(at)aol.com and I'll send out my number. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com>
Subject: Re: "L" Angle Bending
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Greg: I used the homemade crimping tool they show in the construction manual. Put your angle beside a rib and crimp appropriately. The nice thing about this is that the crimps are on the side of the angle so you don't have to worry about avoiding crimps when riveting. Dave Payson Working toward final inspection on Subaru powered CH601 HD. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Compasses
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Regarding compass problem, a friend pointed out that a gentle turn in a 601 rotating 180 deg in 20 sec is in fact three times as fast as a rate one turn in a Cessna. So the centrifugal effect will be much enhanced. If it stops ever raining will try a real 1 min per 180deg turn and see what happens. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
> >In a message dated 7/8/98 2:16:21 AM Mountain Daylight Time, >tdecker(at)spectra.net writes: > >I think sometimes they charge too much for stuff too, but then I remember what >it's like to run my business and I am just glad I won't have to be paying 15 >to 20K for a 30 year old 152 with some huge number of hours on the engine and >airframe. Last time I checked Cessna's web page, a 172 is going for $168,000 >for a full IFR package. Now that is Outrageous!! > >Steve >My 2 cents (for what it's worth) >6-3737 tail surfaces complete, working on outboard wings. There's an Ultralight, the Laron 1/2 Ton, that a lot of people really liked when it came out. There were orders. The actions of Laron after the money was received seem to be pretty unpleasant. One guy on the UL list was saying he doesn't have all the parts or all the instructions. Never expects to, either. If you look at prices, the 13k for an airframe kit seems reasonable. There's a lot more in that than parts. For the 170k of a new Cessna, you get full certification, so even the complete Zen product is 15 to 20% of that cost, plus some non trival labor. With the hours on the Zodiacs, what level of 'certification' does this represent? You want to be pretty hard-nosed. Knowing what a certificated a/c costs, even used (I own one), I don't want something (experimental, HB) really new and untested. I don't want a company that is cutting a lot of corners. I want someone with finances that suggest continued success, even in a downturn. Zenith seems like a 5 star company, to me, but I have limited knowledge. You can, for what it is worth, buy a Sportplane certificated airplane for around 40k. Flightstar has one, the Gt-500 was certificated, one of the Rans is supposed to be, by now. Does seem like the regs and the liability laws, plus the limited UL category, create strange situations in the US. George Sears PS, no 30 year old 152's, they started in about '77. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 08, 1998
Subject: Re: "L" Angle Bending
<< I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there a clever way to do this that I am not seeing? The only idea I can come up with is to make plywood forms to match the ribs with reliefs in them to allow the material that's being bent somewhere to go. >> Greg: There are two ways to make a tool that allows you to bend one flange of an L- angle to cause the other bend to produce a curve. First, Chris Heintz described a tool you can make (involved welding) to do the bending - see the tool section of the manual. Second, I made a tool using an old pair of long- nose pliers with cable insulators attached to the nose of the pliers (to prevent scratching the L-angle. You can also wrap electrical tape instead of using the cable insulators). Additionally, I fabricated two thick pieces of metal and two bolts to hold the nose of the pliers so they won't bend as I use the tool. I determined where to make the bend and then use a twisting action - first one way then another a few times - to create the bend. You can get the idea from the tool section of the manual. With my tool, I have made good bends with no scratches and was able to make the L-angles shapen the same as the nearest larger rib. I hope this helps. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD)
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Center wing nose skin rivet spacing
Hi all: Am preparing center wing nose skin. When I follow the specified measurements from the "trailing edge"of the nose skin, for the rivet spacing as noted in the manual, it appears that at least three of these measurements will result in a rivet hole landing on a nose rib crimp on the top surface of the rib flange. By my calculations there are 13 rivets to be placed on top. Has anyone worked out a better spacing for these rivets so they don't land on a rib flange crimp? Is there any harm in altering these measurements slightly in order to have the rivets land on all the flat parts of the rib flange ? How did you do yours? I am assuming that the trailing edges start at the back edge of the angle extrusion of the spar. Any help/suggestions appreciated. Doug P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Center wing nose skin rivet spacing
DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD wrote: Has anyoneworked out a better spacing for these rivets so they don't land on a > rib flange crimp? Is there anyone who hasn't? 8-) > Is there any harm in altering these measurements > slightly in order to have the rivets land on all the flat parts of > the rib flange ? No harm whatever, in fact, that's what the manual says to do.Go for it, the hard part is getting the holes lined up between the skin and the rib. some of us made a separate template for each rib....lotsa fun. If you can get all the holes in a straight line down the wing, "you're a better man than I, Gunga Din". I hope this helps, James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
George Sears wrote: > > > If you look at prices, the 13k for an airframe kit seems reasonable. > There's a lot more in that than parts. Oh, oh, here I go again, getting on my soap box! 8-)When comparing kits, look at what the kit suppliers give you for your money. Again,, I love the 601, but look at what you get for 15K from the RV guys, (as one example), versus what comes in the Zenair kit, and I'm not talking about how complete they are, so much as the cost of the materials, (.016, vs .032), the level of manufacture, the fittings, (the turnbuckles are a good example). I'm not knocking the quality or completenes of the zenair kits. The aircraft is a marvel of simplicity and economy of construction. I'm just saying that, compared to what it costs them and other companies to produce a kit, they charge a lot. On top of that, I admire the fact that they make it so easy for a plans-builder to construct their product. They could have refused to sell plans and made it difficult to get factory support > For the 170k of a new Cessna, you > get full certification, so even the complete Zen product is 15 to 20% of > that cost, plus some non trival labor. Plus, the Cessna is a 4 place machine, considerably faster, with more $ in instruments than I have in my whole plane. The extra cost in raw materials alone is considerable. > Knowing what a certificated a/c costs, even used (I own one), I don't want > something (experimental, HB) really new and untested. I don't want a > company that is cutting a lot of corners. I want someone with finances that > suggest continued success, even in a downturn. Zenith seems like a 5 star > company, to me, but I have limited knowledge. Yup, at their prices, they ain't starving, but this is just good business. I'm not knocking them. I just call a spade a spade. Love the company and it's product...not as happy with their marketing, but you can't argue w/ success! James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant hefty stick pressure is required for level flight. The manual suggests a procedure for trim (adjust aileron control rod length), but I can't see how it could work. Has anyone else had this problem? Can a really bad out of trim condition be corrected by the procedure in the manual? Another problem is cg at the aft limit, but I know how to fix that - add weight up front, or loose weight myself! tia, Glen. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: test
Date: Jul 09, 1998
this is only a test.....ignore. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
Date: Jul 09, 1998
> > I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of > rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant > hefty stick pressure is required for level flight. Glen...Is the wing heavy at all speeds, or only at cruise speed? Could need some change in the engine side thrust. Also, does it want to roll left or right? I am betting on left. Mine wanted to roll left, so I installed aileron tabs for hands off flight. Now when I carry a passenger it wants to roll right. Good sales point for electric aileron trim. > The manual suggests a procedure for trim (adjust > aileron control rod length), but I can't see how it > could work. > It won't work. I tried and it looks like this is one of the few points where Chris is wrong. All that will happen is that the ailerons will spring back to center, offsetting the stick. Both can be run in or out to affect the amount of lift for pitch trim. But no help with roll. If the plane is a tri-gear with wheel pants, make sure that the nose wheel is centered when the rudder is centered, that big wheel pant will work like a rudder in the front. Mine was off a small amount at first and this caused some of my problem. Good Luck, Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru, now have 45 hours McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Disabling HTML in Outlook
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Matt: I ran across a solution to the problem which has been tested and found to work. You're solution (yesterday) works for Outlook Express, but not for Outlook. In Outlook you can specify send formats for individual e-mail addresses; so start by setting up an address in your address book. Within that address (properties) you can set send options and specify MIME and plain text format. Like I said above I tested this today and it worked. We also looked at Outlook Express and we think that the Tools-Options-Send solution you supplied yesterday will change the send format for all outgoing messages...bad if you wanted HTML enabled for whatever reasons. Just as in Outlook we found that if you look in the Address book you can change send format for just that one address. I send this to you to hopefully make it easier to help the next guy who has this problem. Tony Gunn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
In a message dated 7/8/98 7:49:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, gsears(at)netutah.com writes: << no 30 year old 152's, they started in about '77 >> We were talking ideas not semantics. Be that as it may, I recently flew a C-150 vintage 1966. What a pleasure to fly. NOT. I think most of us are building for the joy of building as well as the cost savings. I can't imagine anyone building solely to save money. If that is the case, then their time is of no value what-so-ever. I know that is not the case with me. I know I could by a nice used plane for 40 or 50K but that is not the point. I do know I can not afford a new plane. I could possibly swing the plane, but then the insurance, the annuals, the operating expense. Too much. It really is a shame. Anyway, happy building. I skinned the bottom right wing last night and everything lined up perfect. Gotta love it!!! Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: FW: Swaging the control cables
Date: Jul 09, 1998
> Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I > just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good > tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through > and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls > chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection? > > Tony Gunn, Houston ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
In a message dated 7/9/98 6:14:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time, asp(at)jet2.net writes: << Plus, the Cessna is a 4 place machine, considerably faster, with more $ in instruments than I have in my whole plane. >> OK, I flew a C-172 last week with 3 guys in it averaging 200lbs. We went to a field at 4,500 elevation on a 90 degree day. I got, at best 300fpm climb out of the plane. The best cruise speed I ever saw was 119mph on my GPS and that was on my descent into Phoenix. The C-172 is not a four airplane unless you truly enjoy flying on the edge of your seat, or unless 2 of your 4 passengers are children or lightweight men or women. Taking off from the airport I used 75% of the runway to take off and after I got out of ground effect the plane was so mushy it scared the beejeezus out of me. While the instrument panel did have a lot of stuff on it I can't remember the last time I used an ADF and so long as my GPS doesn't die on me, as a VFR pilot, VOR's are for the birds. The FBO I rent from does have a 1997 C-172 that does get better performance than the one referenced above but even that is still not up to the advertised numbers for the Zodiac. If the Zodiac winds up performing as poorly as the older 172's I will be sorely disapointed. Anyway, Happy flying everyone!! Keep the dirty side down. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
Tony Gunn wrote: > > > > Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I > > just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good > > tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through > > and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls > > chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection? > > > > Tony Gunn, Houston Tony, Pounding the Nicos with a hammer is definitely not the procedure for swaging cables. Your FAA guy will most likely see that right away, and he'll squawk them. Also, I personally would not take a chance at flying the aircraft with hammered swages. I'm sure you're not looking forward to redoing your control cables, but you're going to have to redo them. I use the big $200 swaging pliers, but you can get a much cheaper tool that uses clamps. When using the clamp type swaging, you'll have to use a swage guage to make sure the nico was compressed properly. Also, you'll need to inspect your cables very closely after you remove the hammered nicos. It will be very easy to damage the cable, so be very careful. Even one tiny broken strand is grounds for getting new cables. Philippe Leroy 601 HDS, JPX power ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote: > > I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of > rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant > hefty stick pressure is required for level flight. > Sounds like you might have a twist built into a wing, or both wings. This is not as disastrous as it sounds, though it reqires courage and care to fix.First, discuss the situation with Art Mitchell at Flypass. He has dealt with exactly the same problem. Here is how I would approach the problem, partly as I remember Art's description, and partly how I would deal with it myself. Remove the wings and establish what is twisted and how much. Use a level table and whatever method you wish to check. If a wing is twisted, I would drill out the rivets holding the top rear skin. This would allow me to reset the wing panel so that it is straight, using blocks to get everything to 0 deg. It should have no twist at all, so both spars should be level, or at least exactly the same angle, lengthwise. Once I was satisfied that the twist was removed completely, I would re-rivet the skin, using the same holes where possible, drilling new holes, properly spaced for the old ones. If neither panel is twisted, you might have a twist in the centre section, which would be a much more difficult situation, though the factory might have some ideas. This gives you some idea of what is involved. It may sound daunting, but it's not really that difficult to remove a wing twist Always check with the factory before you attempt any repairs of this nature to get their advice/blessing. I hope this is of some help James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
Tony Gunn wrote: > > > Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I > > just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good > > tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through > > and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls > > chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection? > > Not a snowball's chance in hell, Tony.....at least I hope not for your sake. Bite the bullet James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
In a message dated 7/9/98 9:02:23 PM, asp(at)jet2.net writes: <> OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool and is this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project? Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
What is a Nicopress tool and is >this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project? > > >Steve ++++ Well, yes, ... sorta. The tool is used to swage the fittings around the cable ends that attach to the control stick and control surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, etc. The good news is that you can usually borrow one from someone is your local EAA chapter, all you have to do is just ask. If your chapter has an EAA Technical Advisor, he will probably have one and be willing to come out and show you how to use it properly. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
<< OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool and is this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project? >> Steve, I got the cheap version from Aircraft Spruce for about $30. It looks like the clamp die from a flaring tool and works with a wrench to crimp the cable ends. You need 3 crimps at each sleeve. Leave a little cable sticking out of the end of the sleeve and wrap with tape while crimping so it doesn't slide out. I found an easy way to cut the cable is to use a sharp chisel with a heavy hammer and a hefty chunk of steel for an anvil. Makes a nice clean cut with one blow. At the risk of sounding like a salesman for EAA, they have the books by Tony Bingelis which do an excellent job of explaining everything to do with homebuilding. Like having an expert right next door. Enjoy George... HDS forever at 80% complete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Swaging the control cables
Date: Jul 09, 1998
> OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool and is > this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project? > Yup! It's a tool you will use for a couple of hours and then not need again until you need to replace a control cable. Aircraft Spruce, and others I am sure, sell a tool for about $15 which I used and does a good job. It's just slower because the compression is from tightening nuts rather than just long arms & leverage from the expensive tool. An alternative is to hit up someone else who has already bought one or the local EAA or RAA club may have a loaner (I'm sure you are a member already, if not I'd join as the contacts will be invaluable). One of the aircraft construction books is also as good buy as it will have lots of tips on things like the proper way to install a nicopress fitting. Sportplane Construction Techniques by Tony Bingelis is a good one in my opinion. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
>> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of >> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant >> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight. >> +++ Before you remove the wings, I'd like to suggest a simple method to determin just how much twist there is from tip to tip in the wing. This way you will be able to actually see the problem and know how much total error there is INCLUDING any possible twist in the center section. Stand off the end of one of the wing tips, and rest one end of a long bubble level on the high point of the wing skin, which will be right on top of the spar. Now, with the level going from front of the wing (on the spar),to the back (over the rear "Z"), raise or lower the end of the level (over the Z) until the bubble shows level. Have someone else measure how far the level is above the rear zee. Double check it and write it down. Now do the same thing on the other wing tip and see how much difference you measure between the wing tips. What ever difference between them is the total amount of twist between the spar and rear zee, end to end. Be sure NOT to move the aircraft, or lean on it during the measurements, and be sure to take these measurements the same position inward from each wing tip. If you only show a small difference, try checking to see that one of the ailerons doesn't hang lower than the other one because of "bend memory" in the aileron hinge material. Other than that, the plane will also want to roll (from torque) if there isn't a few degrees of engine offset in the engine mount as defined in the building manual. Some planes fly really crummy if they don't have enough side thrust. Hope this helps. If any of this is unclear, rattle my cage. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD)
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Subject: Nicopress swedging tool
If any of the builders are around a marine rigger or a West Marine Store, they all have nicopress swaging tools for the cable sleeves and probably would do it for a nominal fee or for free. Just another thought. In no case whatsoever should you ever consider hammer swedging the control cables. I would start over and replace everything including the cables as they are undoubtedly fractured. Sorry. Please for your own safety don't consider anything less than that. IMHO. Doug. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Out of rig wings
Date: Jul 09, 1998
Glen: I wonder if it might be possible to correct the warped wing(s) by replacing the small splice/nut-plates on the inside of both the nose skin and rear zee (between inboard & outboard wing sections) with ones that have the bolt hole in a slightly different position, offset vertically (one up, the other down). This would in effect change the angle of incidence of the entire outboard wing a bit, and if done oppositely to both wings, could have the desired result of negating the out-of-trim condition mentioned. The large main spar splice plates would not need any changes at all (the wing should pivot slightly about the centre spar with the smaller splice plates removed). I doubt the visual difference would be very noticable with the splice cover panels installed. Be careful. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 > > > >Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote: > >> >> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of >> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant >> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight. >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net>
Subject: Aileron trim
Date: Jul 10, 1998
How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator trim provided by Zenith? John Karnes karnes(at)zoomnet.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net>
Subject: Running wires
Date: Jul 10, 1998
At the last workshop (highly recommended, by the way, especially for neophytes like myself), Nicholas described a neat way to run wires through the airplane: 1. Drill a 1/8" hole near the edge of a lightening hole. 2. Run a cable tie through this hole and the outside of the lightening hole. 3. Inside this cable tie, run another cable tie which will hold the wire run. That way, the wires are held tightly and touch nothing but plastic. Neat, huh? 601HDS w/Stratus Subaru. Tail feathers almost complete. John Karnes karnes(at)zoomnet.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
Fred Hulen wrote: > >> > > +++ Before you remove the wings, I'd like to suggest a simple method to > determin just how much twist there is from tip to tip in the wing. This way > you will be able to actually see the problem and know how much total error > there is INCLUDING any possible twist in the center section. DUH!! Why didn't I think of that? Geez, I hate it when I come up with the hard way to approach a problem. That's what makes an exchange of ideas like these lists so great. You've just saved this guy 5 hours of work, just to check the situation. The wings still MIGHT have to removed, but this is a helluva lot simpler to start the process. James, (red faced in Essex), Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: to SLF998(at)aol.com
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953553(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> Steve: I cringed as I read your post regarding your flight in a C172 with 3 200 lb. men out of a 4500' MSL airport on a 90 degree day. While I don't have my E6B with me, I can only guess at the density altitude you were experiencing that day. As a CFI and C172 owner, I must give you some advice :) , please get with an instructor and review a/c performance. Depending on the surronding terrain, this could have been a tragic flight. Good luck with your building. Roger Kilby www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2360 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron trim
Date: Jul 10, 1998
I find I rarely need even the elevator trim (except maybe when taking a passenger, somewhat). I definitely don't need aileron trim. I have 601 HD with nose tank only. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: John Karnes <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 4:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron trim > >How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator >trim provided by Zenith? > >John Karnes >karnes(at)zoomnet.net > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 1998
From: billn(at)ppiteam.com (PPITEAM)
Subject: Re: Aileron trim
>How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator >trim provided by Zenith? > >John Karnes >karnes(at)zoomnet.net John, I put the aileron trim on my plane. If you rig for solo flight, then you may get a right turn tendency with a passenger. It was/is my opinion that the aileron trim will make give the adjustment necessary between solo and passenger flights. 601HDS - Running control cables Bill Nichelson Bellefontaine, Oh bn2(at)bright.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 10, 1998
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
Thanks for the advice, and olease believe me it is noted. I never would have done it but the runway was over 10,000 ft long and I was flying with an instrument rated pilot with over 1,000 hours who had flown into and out of that field hundreds of times. I will admit that we didn't do any desity altitude calculations but we figured in our heads density altitudde to be around 8,500 to 9,500 feet. Is it completely unreasonable to expect an airplane designed to carry 4 adults to be able to perform at a level high enough to carry only three adults under "non- extreme" conditions? I thinks so, and that is my entire point. The C172 is not a true 4 person aircraft. The Zodiac, while small, is a true 2 person aircraft. It would have been able to handle that same situation with no trouble. (At least that's what I have been told) You Wrote: <> Please understand, I am fully aware of the laws of physics and I would not have made the flight I discussed had I not had the other more experienced piliot on board with me. Even though he was not functioning in a "CFI" mode his experience was very helpful. I personally just think it is just short of corporate negligence for Cessna to say that the 172 is a 4 person aircraft. Sure it is, if all 4 people weigh 150lbs and you are flying on a standard day at sea level but how often does that happen................... The 172 is a wonderful 2 person aircraft, marginal 3 person, and maybe 4 small people. Just my humble opinion. But as interesting aside, after learing about density altitudes in ground school and then practical experience in flight training, I realized that in the 152 I was training in, me 195lbs, my instructor 205lbs, and a full load of fuel we were overweight. This never really dawned on me as my CFI never made an issue of it. But when I did my check ride and my FAA person made me do a weight and balance problem for us to fly that day, we were overwieght with full fuel. The FAA guy weighed 145lbs and he instructed me to include 45lbs of baggage!!! So all of those training days I was overweight. I "cringe" to think what would have happened had those sorties been done out of the higher elevation. Is the 152 truly a 2 person aircraft? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Aileron trim
Date: Jul 11, 1998
> >How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator > >trim provided by Zenith? > > > >John Karnes Would suggest laying the wiring in there and wait till you have flown before putting in aileron trim. There are days when I feel the right wing is dropping but then usuallly find I have crossed controls again and have a bit of right rudder on. I don't notice any difference whether with passenger or full or empty wing tanks, surprisingly. We had a discussion some time ago about the over sensitive elevator trim. With a light fuel load I find it does not need touching in circuit. With full tanks and or passenger she tends to be nose up on climb out and nose down on glide. When at full load or overloaded, the elevator trim is definitely not too sensitive, it is much needed. So we have to put up with a very senstive elevator trim when on minimal load, because we need it when at MAUW. One cause of dropping wings I think is the setting of the outboard wing extension trailing edge. does it line up with the rest of the wing? It is easy to get a bit of droop built in. Set right with the inboard ailerons lined up with the inboard fillets and the outboard ends up a 1/8th high because of washout, the outboard tip of aileron should be 1/8 in. above trailing edge of wing tip extension. The wing tip has a lot of leverage and will act as a fixed aileron. Was flying in a jumbo recently and noticed a rect. bit of inboard wing that moved with the ailerons so said to the hostess, "What in hell is that thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why? Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron trim
Date: Jul 10, 1998
> How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator > trim provided by Zenith? Aileron trim is available as an option from Zenair. It is similar to the elevator trim, the trim servo sits in the aileron and operates a trim tab hinged to the aft side of the aileron. I had become tired of flying a Piper Warrior which was in trim for only a short while when the fuel load in the wing tanks counterbalanced my weight so I installed the aileron trim in my HDS. I have only flown by myself at the moment but I can easily get the plane trimed for straight & level flight. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron trim
Bernie Gunn wrote: > thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back > a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why? > Bernie G. Bernie, I think all the big Boeings are about the same in the aileron department (ie. 727 upward). The 727 has dual ailerons to account for the dramatic difference in roll control required with full flaps at landing speed (lots!) vs. cruise speed. At cruise only that little inboard aileron, along with the flight spoiler panels, control roll. As the flaps are extended, the outboard aileron begins to factor in until it is also fully active. I think most aircraft with a large speed differential from Vs to Vmo need some kind of 'progressive' controls so as not to get things overstressed at speed, but still get the job done for landing. Grant Corriveau (always wondered what one could do with flaperons on the 601) 601hds50% Montreal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
Date: Jul 12, 1998
Subject: ForSale
For Sale; Zenair 601HD, Subaru powered with Reductions of Canada redrive, 0 time, it has been signed off by the FAA for 40 hour flight testing. Basic instruments, No radios. asking 18,000. If you have more questions inquire direct to my Email then if still interested I will give you my phone number. Need a quick sale, to many hangar rentals. May consider some kind of trade-in for partial payment. Located in Kansas City kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 12, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
<< We were talking ideas not semantics. Be that as it may, I recently flew a C-150 vintage 1966. What a pleasure to fly. NOT. I think most of us are building for the joy of building as well as the cost savings. I can't imagine anyone building solely to save money. If that is the case, then their time is of no value what-so-ever. I know that is not the case with me. I know I could by a nice used plane for 40 or 50K but that is not the point. I do know I can not afford a new plane. I could possibly swing the plane, but then the insurance, the annuals, the operating expense. Too much. It really is a shame. >> Just gotta put in my 2-cents' worth. Money is not the reason I am building my Zodiac. I already own another plane - a Rockwell Darter (1966). Good plane. The main reason I am building is that I want control over how I am going to maintain my plane. Yes, there are standards, but I want to pay someone to maintain my plane when I have a strong desire to do it myself. With the Darter, I can't do much legal engine work on it, even if I know how, plus I can't do any structural repair on it as needed, unless I pay an IA to check my work and give the sign-off (most IA's here won't do that, cuz there's not much money to be made). So, rather than be stuck with an old plane I can't repair and maintain myself, I decided to build. For me, that's one heck of a good reason. Dick (601-HDS, building the aileron control system before riveting the rear fuselage to the center wing). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 12, 1998
Subject: Re: Out of rig wings
<< I wonder if it might be possible to correct the warped wing(s) by replacing the small splice/nut-plates on the inside of both the nose skin and rear zee (between inboard & outboard wing sections) with ones that have the bolt hole in a slightly different position, offset vertically (one up, the other down). This would in effect change the angle of incidence of the entire outboard wing a bit, and if done oppositely to both wings, could have the desired result of negating the out-of-trim condition mentioned. The large main spar splice plates would not need any changes at all (the wing should pivot slightly about the centre spar with the smaller splice plates removed). I doubt the visual difference would be very noticable with the splice cover panels installed. Be careful. Darryl >> Hmmm... Interesting. It may be possible, but the thing that comes to mind is that one wing may stall first before the other, and that one wing will have more lift relative to the other (higher angle of attack) so you may have to compensate with more rudder. Ugh! Just a thought... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 12, 1998
Subject: Re: Running wires
<< 1. Drill a 1/8" hole near the edge of a lightening hole. 2. Run a cable tie through this hole and the outside of the lightening hole. 3. Inside this cable tie, run another cable tie which will hold the wire run. That way, the wires are held tightly and touch nothing but plastic. Neat, huh? 601HDS w/Stratus Subaru. Tail feathers almost complete. John Karnes karnes(at)zoomnet.net >> Yup! That is neat. Speaking of wires, when I completed my HDS wings, I installed wires for the O/B strobes and nav lights. I insulated the wires with a loom tube. The entire "cable" is routed through the lightening holes. Some people told me the vibration could cause the loom tubes resting on the edges of the lightening holes and the L-angle skin stiffeners to eventually be cut through. My EAA Tech Counselor said that it might be a good idea to support the "cable" somehow (he built an RV and he used the same set-up as I did, without any support, and he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside his wings). Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Thanks! Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Running wires
Date: Jul 13, 1998
. The > entire "cable" is routed through the lightening holes. Some people told me > the vibration could cause the loom tubes resting on the edges of the > lightening holes and the L-angle skin stiffeners to eventually be cut through. > My EAA Tech Counselor said that it might be a good idea to support the "cable" > somehow (he built an RV and he used the same set-up as I did, without any > support, and he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside his > wings). It would worry me too. I either ran wiring along behind the main spar, or, as around wing fuel tank, drilled a 3/8 hole in rib, slid in a 1 1/2 inch length of tygon tubing, gunked it in with silicone, and slipped wiring in through that. In the triangluar hole behind main spar also gunked in pieces of tubing. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953554(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> Steve, I agree with the idea that if it has the seats, they should be usable, but on most a/c that is not the case. They are designed to be used under certain conditions only. The SA-227 Metroliner I flew for Northwest Airlink had 19 passenger seats but, depending on the fuel load, density altitude, etc., they may not always be usable. This is true of any aircraft. As for the 152, the aircraft is limited and I'm sorry the CFI didn't have the sense to not operate it overweight. I always used the 172 for heavier people (myself included), or put the student with a smaller CFI. I didn't mean any offense by the suggestion that you get with a CFI. CFI's are not God and are prone to make mistakes, like taking 600lbs of people in a 172 at a 8500-9500' density altitude. Anyhow, fly safe and I'm sure these 601's will not disappoint any of us in performance (or cost of operation). Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Running wires
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote: > he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside his > wings). Does anyone have any thoughts about this? > > Thanks! > > Dick (601-HDS) Wires don't flap in wings ! But lighting holes cut a wire like a piece of butter because of vibrations. Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib. Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last rib with 2 ties. Claude. 701-912 getting dusty since march 97 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
sc.gte.com> > >Steve, > >I agree with the idea that if it has the seats, they should be usable, but >on most a/c that is not the case. They are designed to be used under >certain conditions only. The SA-227 Metroliner I flew for Northwest Airlink >had 19 passenger seats but, depending on the fuel load, density altitude, >etc., they may not always be usable. This is true of any aircraft. >As for the 152, the aircraft is limited and I'm sorry the CFI didn't have >the >sense to not operate it overweight. I always used the 172 for heavier >people (myself included), or put the student with a smaller CFI. >I didn't mean any offense by the suggestion that you get with a CFI. >CFI's are not God and are prone to make mistakes, like taking 600lbs >of people in a 172 at a 8500-9500' density altitude. >Anyhow, fly safe and I'm sure these 601's will not disappoint any of us >in performance (or cost of operation). > >Roger > There was an accident close to here, two months ago, involving a CFI and a 150, overloaded, stall spin. Two fatalities including his wife, not a student. Certificated airplanes have operating limits, and they are as optimistic as the companies can make them. The Lancair started as a homebuilt, and is now, I think, also a certificated airplane. They've made quite a few changes. Zenith makes a certificated airplane, the Zenith 2000, two place, and it weighs enough to suffer the same low performance at high density altitudes. There has to be some sort of trade-off here, right? When the 172 was designed, how many people lived in high elevation cities, like Denver, Salt Lake City, or Albuquerque? Bigger engines don't give you much of an increase in cruise speed (drag increases exponentially with velocity) so the 'right' engine is more than climb performance. I just hope this argument isn't "Well, if they put four seats in there I can fill them any time I want." This just isn't a good attitude for any pilot to have, whether a Zodiac Flyer or a Cessna jock. The limitation really boils down to having to 1) take off early in the morning, or 2) carry minimal fuel until you reach a lower altitude airport. I own a 150. With my hours, it is the perfect airplane. I do feel myself outgrowing it, little by little. I fly it alone, sometimes with half fuel. The performance is quite acceptable, especially during the times when the thermals aren't wrenching me around, which is until about 10;30 AM, in summer. Happy landings, George Sears George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 13, 1998
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
In a message dated 7/13/98 3:37:13 PM, gsears(at)netutah.com writes: <<"Well, if they put four seats in there I can fill them any time I want.">> Honestly, I think that should be true, but I do understand how it is impossible to be true. But, this isn't the point. I understand performance and conditions. I just don't feel 4,500 feet, 90 deg. F, and 3, 200lb men is even close to an extreme condition. I think a 4 seat airplane should be able to handle that without trouble. Out here in the great Southwest, those can be average to below average conditions. (Except maybe for the size of the guys) We can hit 90degrees in November!!! <> A Lot. And anyway, you are forgetting several hundred smaller high elevation cities with remote locations that depend on general aviation for everything from transportation to crop dusting. And what about the low elevation cities that can experience temperatures in the 110-120's? 5 years ago in Phoenix they closed Sky Harbor Airport (7th busiest in nation) because it reached 122 degrees (I can't even imagine how hot it must have been for the guys working the ramp that day)and the big jets didn't have enough runway. I guess that really only reinforces the performance point, but that was truly an extreme condition! I just don't understand how aircraft which have to pass such rigourous safety standard checks can be designed to such poor performance standards under such mild conditions. Enough of this though, it is what is. I just hope that the HDS performs as stated. All I want is an aircraft that is a true 2 seater. 2 men and a couple sets of golf clubs. Is that too much to ask? It is in a 152, in Arizona, 6 month's out of the year, flying to a huge portion of this beautiful but mountainous state. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: 747 inboard aileron
> Was flying in a jumbo recently and noticed a rect. bit of inboard wing > that moved with the ailerons so said to the hostess, "What in hell is that > thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back > a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why? > Bernie G. > > Bernie, I'd be willing to bet you were flying on a Boeing 747. I took a trip to the JPX factory in France last December and we flew on an Air France 747, and I noticed that inboard aileron. I noticed that the pilots were only using it during cruise flight. On take-off and landing, I could definitely see that they were using both inboard and the long outboard ailerons. I figured that when flying at Mach .8 the outboard ailerons are probably too effective, and just a slight deflection would cause a huge bank. Any Boeing experts on this list? Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.ca>
Subject: Firewall
I am currently completing the firewall on my 601 HD TD, and I have two questions. 1) What is the lower 0.016" firewall fairing supposed to do? 2) I am trying to use tension/return springs on my rudder peddles. When I use springs that give the recommended 30-40 lb cable tension, I am deforming the firewall ! I have added some re-inforcements, but this tension sure seems excessive. Any suggestions? Paul Perry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall
Perry_Paul wrote: > > I am currently completing the firewall on my 601 HD TD, and I have two > questions. 1) What is the lower 0.016" firewall fairing supposed to do? 2) I > am trying to use tension/return springs on my rudder peddles. When I use > springs that give the recommended 30-40 lb cable tension, I am deforming the > firewall ! I have added some re-inforcements, but this tension sure seems > excessive. Any suggestions? Paul, You will provide all the cable tension you need w/ your feet. all your springs have to do is keep the pedals under some tension so they don't flop over. Not much tension needed, just fairly long stretch. I used 3/8" or 1/2"(not sure, I'd have to measure, but it's not crucial ) spring from Home Hardware. It comes as about 6 or 8" long. Just cut what you need. (4 or 5"? I forget). Come on over and chack mine out. 8-) James ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
Date: Jul 13, 1998
Subject: 601HD for sale
Zenith 601HD 0 time, signed off by FAA for 40 hour test period, basic instruments, No radios, Subaru with Reductions of Canada redrive and motor mount. Needs cosmetic finish work such as interior finishing etc. Yellow with black accent color. for more info contact kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org asking 18K might consider some sort of tradein for partial payment. Located in Gardner Kansas airport. I have three aircraft and one has to go ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 13, 1998
Steve: Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the 601HDS? Idea: A 4' long, large cardboard tube (with end cap) slid inside the wing baggage locker through the outboard ribs. The club shafts could stick inside the tube, while the heads could hang inside the locker, maybe with a Velcro strap to hold them from moving. This assumes no wing tanks. The empty bags might fit in the rear baggage shelf? BTW, I think that the Zodiac would make a really cool golf cart. Just land on a long, straight fairway, and then taxi back to the tee-off. 8-) Darryl -----Original Message----- From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com> Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: to SLF998(at)aol.com > > >Enough of this though, it is what is. I just hope that the HDS performs as >stated. All I want is an aircraft that is a true 2 seater. 2 men and a >couple sets of golf clubs. Is that too much to ask? It is in a 152, in >Arizona, 6 month's out of the year, flying to a huge portion of this beautiful >but mountainous state. > >Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jul 13, 1998
Subject: Re: 747 inboard aileron
Don't know about all Boeing aircraft, but I have a lot of hours in the KC-135 (military 707). The outboard ailerons are connected to the flaps. At high speeds they would be much too effective. The inboards, coupled to the spoilers (spoilers provide much of the roll) are sufficient. At approach and landing speeds the outboards are needed to augment the rolling forces. Flap position controls whether or not the outboards are functional. As an interesting side note, the KC-135 is true fly by wire (Cables) aircraft. The rudder is the only flight control that is hydraulicly assisted. I.e. when the yoke is turned to initiate a turn, cables move a trim tab on the aileron. The resultant aerodynamic forces move the whole aileron and initiate the turn. Nice system, and good to have when things are going bad. Randy Vranish ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 14, 1998
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
<< Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the 601HDS? >> I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple of those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips. I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf gear is in my bag. Anyway, I like the idea of landing on the first fairway and then taxiing around the course for the golf cart. I think the greenskeepers might have a problem with it though. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jul 14, 1998
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
This is a reply for proper drill size for an A-6 rivet. A #10 drill bit is the recommended size. A 3/16 is too small and 13/64 is too large. The recommended sizes for rivets are: Rivet Dia Drill size 1/16 #51 3/32 #40 1/8 #30 5/32 #21 3/16 #10 Hope this helps. Someone was asking about designations. i.e. MS2470 AD 4-7 MS20470 or old designation AN470 is the head type that is used in the spars-the universal head. Ms20426 or AN 426 would be a countersunk head, etc. The next letter or letters are the material code. A is a plain rivet - made of 1100 and not heat treated-shouldn't be used for structural use. AD is dimpled and is heat treated 2117 alloy - stronger. the 4 is the diameter measured in 32nds of an inch. So an A-6 pop rivet has a diameter of 6/32nds or 3/16ths. The 7 is the length of a hard rivet in 1/16ths of an inch. If you don't have it, I highly recommend the Standard Aircraft Handbook. I think it is a must purchase. Use mine all the time. Aero is the publisher. I think Aircraft Spruce sells it. My beable to order through your local book store. Good flying, Randy Vranish ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jul 14, 1998
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
On 07/14/98 09:58:40 you wrote: > > > ><< Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the >601HDS? >> > >I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for >the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple of >those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips. >I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf >gear is in my bag. > >Anyway, I like the idea of landing on the first fairway and then taxiing >around the course for the golf cart. I think the greenskeepers might have a >problem with it though. > >Steve > > > > > Reference the baggage locker, When I owned a Mooney I had a ski tube istalled. It was a canvas bag that was attached to various points along the rear of the fuselage. The bag prevented the skis from hitting the sides of the fuselage. The bag went a considerable distance into the normally unused portion of the fuselage. 195 skis only protuded 1 and 1/2 foot or so into the baggage compartment. Slick idea, need to watch the C.G. My only concern would be that the bulk heads might not be strong enough attach points. Randy V. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 14, 1998
Subject: Re: Golf Clubs
Steve & Darryl, On my first inspection visit to Mexico to check out the 601, I explained to Nicholas the importance of getting golf clubs in the plane. As opposed to stuffing them in the wing, I got permission to cut a small half round hole in the rear bulkhead of the storage compartment,suitably reinforced of course, to get the necessary extra couple of inches to fit the woods. More or less an extension tunnel,won't have to be more than 6" I believe. Club heads would be to the front,directly behind the seats for less weight impact on the CG. Cliff Martin #6-3694 Still in a holding pattern. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Golf Clubs
>On my first inspection visit to Mexico to check out the 601, I explained to >Nicholas the importance of getting golf clubs in the plane. As opposed to >stuffing them in the wing, I got permission to cut a small half round hole in >the rear bulkhead of the storage compartment,suitably reinforced of course, to >get the necessary extra couple of inches to fit the woods. More or less an >extension tunnel,won't have to be more than 6" I believe. Club heads would be >to the front,directly behind the seats for less weight impact on the CG. > >Cliff Martin #6-3694 +++++ You golfers are "sumthin else".. what will you guys who are Pole-Vault enthusiast do, eh? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jul 14, 1998
Subject: List Operational Update...
Hello Listers, I've made a number of improvments and upgrades to the List servers in the last couple of weeks and thought I'd pass on the news... - Battery Backup Power Added - I've added two new APC 1.4 KVA Uninterruptable Power Supply systems (UPS) to the email server and to the web server. Each UPS has enough battery power to run the respective system and all of the associated networking gear for over 3 hours! At the 3 hour mark, each system will automatically be shutdown gracefully and the the UPS put into standby mode for automatic system restart when the AC power is restored. I've extensivly tested both systems and everything works great. With three AC power outages here in less than a month, it seemed like a good time to buy some insurance. The web server incountered disk errors during all 3 outages and wouldn't reboot without manual disk checks and restart. Both the email and web systems should be quite robust now, with availability approching near 100%! - Additional Memory Added to Web Server - I have added an additional 256Mb of system RAM to the web server machine for a total of 384Mb! Most all web access and archive searches are now pulled directly from memory and overall system performance is outstanding. The web server is running under Linux on a dual processor Pentium Pro 200 Mhz system with a 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah system hard disk. - More Improvments to the Archive Search Engine - You may have noticed the new message return option added recently to the Archive Search Engine. Message hit subjects are returned in one browser window while the actual messages are displayed in a separate browser window. This allows much more of the actual message to be displayed on the screen at a time and also makes printing of each message more intutive. The original three-frame return as well as the 'all messages' display options are also still available. I have been working through a number of data-dependant bugs in the search engine and have addressed most all of the known problems. I'm still working on the ability to return 'n' number of matches at a time and hope to have to that fully functional this week. Currently, a maximum of 500 matches can be returned, but this will be raised to 10,000 in 100, 200, or 500 batches soon. The new search engine has been receiving 100-200 hits a day - a nearly 5 fold hit increase over the previous engine - and the web server in general has been seeing 3000-4000 hits a day (!), predominately from the RV and Zenith List pages. Best Regards - Party on... Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 15, 1998
Subject: Re: Golf Clubs
<< You golfers are "sumthin else".. what will you guys who are Pole-Vault enthusiast do, eh? >> I believe they make a telescoping pole for the vault!! Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
I'm not completely thrilled with the way these rules are written. As I understand it you have a mechanics certificate for the airplane, the airframe. You didn't build the engine, so you can't do the annual on the engine. Technically. You'll also be required to sign of on AC 20-27, which states that any changes to the aircraft will be signed off on by the FAA (before you fly). The FAA has the right to reinspect any change. A guy built a Long EZ, changed the fuel system, then returned it to the original. The plane crashed doing 500k worth of damage, and the insurance co. weaseled out because he'd violated that condition, even though the plane was in the original config when it crashed. See this month's Sport Aviation. If my understanding of the airframe versus engine rule is correct, you could do the sign-off, but it then becomes an admission you broke the rules. If you don't sign off for the annual, then you don't have a legal airworthiness cert. If you don't break that rule, you'll break some other. I see the latest 'kitplane' is a Lancair 4 place pressurized speed demon that cruises along at a mere 300 knots, comfy up to FL 250. The simple pleasures of the homebuilder! Whee. The guys building the simple stuff deserve a break, rules more like Ultralights. George Sears > >Just gotta put in my 2-cents' worth. > >Money is not the reason I am building my Zodiac. I already own another plane >- a >Rockwell Darter (1966). Good plane. The main reason I am building is that I >want control over how I am going to maintain my plane. Yes, there are >standards, but I want to pay someone to maintain my plane when I have a strong >desire to do it myself. With the Darter, I can't do much legal engine work on >it, even if I know how, plus I can't do any structural repair on it as needed, >unless I pay an IA to check my work and give the sign-off (most IA's here >won't do that, cuz there's not much money to be made). So, rather than be >stuck with an old plane I can't repair and maintain myself, I decided to >build. > >For me, that's one heck of a good reason. > >Dick (601-HDS, building the aileron control system before riveting the rear >fuselage to the center wing). > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Oshkosh
Date: Jul 15, 1998
So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent. I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to have still more opportunities than that. I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there? I will send this to Reiner Hoffman (Stratus) also, hoping to have him join us periodically. Tony Gunn, HDS kit 2/3 done, Houston ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
Date: Jul 15, 1998
>So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place >I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there? > Tony, I'll also be there from Thursday thru Saturday. However, everyone keeps warning me on how big it is at Oshkosh, so I was just hoping to find the Zenith tent. Didn't have any realistic hopes of finding fellow builders in the masses. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS Working on the outboard speed wings http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Reiner's Email Address
Date: Jul 15, 1998
IRT last Oshkosh post I thought I had Reiner Hoffman's e-mail address -- I don't Does anyone else have it? Thanks, Tony Gunn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
> >So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to >meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2 >p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent. +++ Sounds like a neat idea Tony, it would be fun to meet you and the other guys that we all talk to on this net. How will we know who we "builders" are in the crowd.... by that "how do I do that" look on our faces? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Oshkosh - How to ID other Zenith Builders
Date: Jul 15, 1998
Fred: Sorry I couldn't reply to last post as a "reply". I'm planning on printing up some stick-on address labels as "601 Builder" and "701 Builder" to be placed in Zenith tent for everyone to pick up and wear. I'll try to get Sebastien and Nick to bring them to Oshkosh so Wednesday visitors can partake. If I have to bring them myself they won't be available til Thursday. Tony Gunn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh - How to ID other Zenith Builders
>Fred: > >Sorry I couldn't reply to last post as a "reply". > >I'm planning on printing up some stick-on address labels as "601 >Builder" and "701 Builder" to be placed in Zenith tent for everyone to >pick up and wear. >Tony Gunn +++++ Neat! "You're a good man Charlie Brown", I'll look to see you there. Fred > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 15, 1998
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
If any builders have any Zenith Merchandise I could embroider (I own a custom embroidery business) your tail number or builder number under the Zenith logo. And then anyone looking would automatically know that you are a builder and not just a wannab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 15, 1998
Subject: ooooops
and not just a wannabe. I would do this for no charge. If anyone is interested contact me at my e-mail address and then I will get intouch with you for more info. Thanks Steve Freeman 6-3737 Tail Done working on outboard wings. If you need a reference I am the supplier to Zenith for all of their embroidered wearables. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Reiner Will Join Us
Date: Jul 15, 1998
Reiner Hoffman (Stratus) replied that he will join us periodically at the Zenith tent at our pre-arranged 10 and 2 times. He says they are very busy shipping motors right now, so he probably won't be there the whole week. When not at the tent he will also spend some time at his Long-EZE parked (as he calls it) on "aircraft engine" row; so you can find him there also. Tony Gunn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Reiner's Email Address
m> Tony, Reiners e-mail is Reinerh(at)aol.com Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont working elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 1998
From: boardman(at)borg.com (Don Boardman)
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
>So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place >I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there? Tony, I will be at the seaplane base with my 701 amphib/912 (450 Hrs). My arrival and departure are weather dependent but I'am planning on being there Tuesday/Wednesday through Monday. Don Boardman Rome, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: NOLIES4US(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Subaru oil pressure
My EA-81 has about 60 lbs. cold, but as it warms up it will drop to about 50 @ 5000 RPM this is with an oil temp of about 235 degree F. I use Castrol Syntec 20-50. I run an oil cooler and oil thermostat. With a remote mount oil filter, so I have some press drop due to line loss. There is also a .060 orifice and line supplying oil to my Ross gear box. The oil pump has a spring loaded ball that will bypass the oil filter if it plugs up. I found this was opening and bypassing the filter when cold. So I opened the pump and installed a sleeve spacer to increase the spring press. I have temporary thermocouples installed on oil cooler and radiator. Have found at cruise I have about 24 degrees droop across oil cooler and 14 degrees across rad. At cruise air temp 82 I see about 210 oil temp and 195 water (with no water thermostat. On climbout if oil press gets less than 10 lbs/thousand engine RPM I level out, Have read that is min. oil press for safe operation. Any comments. Bill J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Subaru oil pressure
Date: Jul 16, 1998
> > My EA-81 has about 60 lbs. cold, but as it warms up it will drop to > about 50 @ > 5000 RPM this is with an oil temp of about 235 degree F. I use Castrol > Syntec > 20-50. > I run an oil cooler and oil thermostat. With a remote mount oil > filter, so I > have some press drop due to line loss. There is also a .060 orifice > and line > supplying oil to my Ross gear box. > The oil pump has a spring loaded ball that will bypass the oil filter > if it > plugs up. > I found this was opening and bypassing the filter when cold. So I > opened the > pump and installed a sleeve spacer to increase the spring press. > I have temporary thermocouples installed on oil cooler and radiator. > Have found at cruise I have about 24 degrees droop across oil cooler > and 14 > degrees across rad. > At cruise air temp 82 I see about 210 oil temp and 195 water (with no > water > thermostat. > On climbout if oil press gets less than 10 lbs/thousand engine RPM I > level > out, Have read that is min. oil press for safe operation. Any > comments. > Bill J. > Bill...Several comments here. First of all, I run the Stratus Subaru (EA81) as provided by Stratus (i.e.. no oil coolers, etc.) on my CH601HDS. As far as the Castrol Syntec oil goes, Stratus says in their manual to never use a synthetic oil in the Subaru. I have talked with Reiner Hoffman designer of the Stratus package and company owner, and he indicates that the rubber seals used by Subaru in their engines react with the synthetic oil and turn the seals rock hard. On the oil pressure, I get about 70 lbs cold. Once warmed up on the ground I get about 50 lbs at most any rpm. The oil temp rarely gets over 160 F on the ground. Climb out and cruise flight are different stories. During climbout at about 80 mph indicated the oil temp will hold about 190 no matter what altitude I climb to. The engine temp. (this is not true water temp since it is sensed at the rear of the cylinder head on the right side) will slowly climb to about 200 F. Oil pressure during climb shows about 40 lbs. Once I level out for cruise flight at about 4800 rpm the temps and pressures slowly stabilize at about 215 F engine temp, 190 to 200 oil temp., and 30 psi oil pressure. I did not like only 30 psi oil pressure, so I talked a lot with Reiner and tried several things to cool the oil, increase the pump pressure, and improve the type of oil used. Bottom line is that changing from Castrol GTX 20w50 to Valvoline straight 50w racing oil helped the most (now run 35 psi in cruise). I also installed a spacer on the valve pressure spring, as you did, this increased the regulated pressure while the oil was cold after startup, but had no effect once the oil warmed. Surprisingly enough, the oil pressure seems to be more affected by engine temp. than by oil temp. After checking on the pressures that others receive, I found that what I am seeing seems to be the norm for these engines. A lot of people only use the pressure switch/idiot light and don't really know what pressure they are running. A big mistake in my book. By the way, all of these readings were in approx. 90 F (on the ground) summertime weather in the Southeast. Hope this helps, Jim Weston CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Running wires
<< Wires don't flap in wings ! But lighting holes cut a wire like a piece of butter because of vibrations. Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib. Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last rib with 2 ties. Claude. >> Wish I had done that before I closed the wings. Even my Tech Counselor has the same worries for his RV. Gonna have to think of another way with the wings closed. Thanks for reply. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com
<< I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple of those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips. I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf gear is in my bag. >> Don't forget - sticking things deep into the empennage adds weight back there and you'll have a tail-heavy condition. It's best to stick 'em in the wings via long tubes thru lightening holes, and balance 'em out in both wings. Have fun! Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: HELP - I'm frustrated
<< I'm not completely thrilled with the way these rules are written. As I understand it you have a mechanics certificate for the airplane, the airframe. You didn't build the engine, so you can't do the annual on the engine. Technically. >> Hmmm... You have a point there about the engine. It's been over a year after I reviewed the regs before I started building. It's true that you may need another sign-off if you make a major adjustment to the airframe. The only "major" alteration I can think of that I will need to make is adding a trim for the aileron while test flying. Maybe I better do that before completing the plane outright. Anyone on the list have any comments about whether we builders can maintain the engine? Dick (time to dig up the manuals, regs, etc.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
<< I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to have still more opportunities than that. I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there? >> No way I can make the dinner - gonna be there on Sunday with my brother. I'll be at the Zenair booth then... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Reiner's Email Address
<< IRT last Oshkosh post I thought I had Reiner Hoffman's e-mail address -- I don't Does anyone else have it? >> Yes, Reiner's address is: Reinerh(at)aol.com Am about ready to order a Soob... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
<< +++ Sounds like a neat idea Tony, it would be fun to meet you and the other guys that we all talk to on this net. How will we know who we "builders" are in the crowd.... by that "how do I do that" look on our faces? Fred >> I have an idea - let's each of us stop at the Zenair booth and buy a Zenair hat, and then stand around wearing it. Or, even a Zenair T-shirt will do. Can't do better than that... Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Running wires
> Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib. > Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last > rib with 2 ties. > > Claude. >> > >Wish I had done that before I closed the wings. Even my Tech Counselor has >the same worries for his RV. Gonna have to think of another way with the >wings closed. >Thanks for reply. > >Dick (601-HDS) +++ Dick, Food for thought.. I notice that seveal guys have been running their wires through the triangular open area at the top and bottom of the spar where the ribs attach. You might consider slipping some small PVC tubing in from one end of the wing to the other and then secure it on one or both ends with adhesive so it won't slip back out, then run your wires through it ... presto, a nice no abrasion way to route the wires. If you have trouble sliding it in because it won't stay straight enough, try inserting a long stiff wire or rod in the tubing, then slide the whole thing in place and withdraw the stiffener. Hope this helps. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
<< I have an idea - let's each of us stop at the Zenair booth and buy a Zenair hat, >> Buy hats!!! Buy Hats!!! Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jul 17, 1998
Subject: Special Thank You...
Hi Listers, I would like to send out a special thank you to the members below that made a contribution to the Internet Upgrade Fund this time around. Contribution amounts were exceptionally generous and the support has helped a great deal. Again, I would like to thank everyone that took the time to send or 'click' in a contribution! If you forgot to make a contribution, feel free to surf over to the following URLs for more information how you can support the RV and Zenith list operation: RV-List - http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/contribution.html Zenith-List - http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/contribution.html Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. ============================================================================== Thanks again to the following members: Brent Allen Edward Anderson Gary Baker Warren Bishop Gregory Booze Bob Bower Garrett Bray Charles Brietigam Don Champagne Moe Colontonio G. Corriveau David Faile Jeff Farrar George Fetzer Chris Good Denny Harjehausen Ken Harrill Nick Haurplen Wesley Hays Randall Henderson Michael Hilger Brian Holman Kevin Horton Fred Hulen Bruce Knoll Charlie Kuss Philip Lehrke Randy Lervold Jim Lyden Jim MacDonald Michael McKenna S. Mehrhoff Warren Moore William Morelli Jim Nolan Chris Olsen Jeff Orear Jeff Orear Derek Reed Robert Rimbold Les Rowles Thomas Sargent Richard Sipp Charles Sonberg Jerry Springer Terrel Stern J. Tompkins Robert Trumpfheller Terrence Watson Doug Weiler Jim Wendel Ron Wilcox Leslie Williams Louis Willig Joseph Wiza Greg Young Richard Zeidman -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
test +++ haven't received anything in a full day ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jul 18, 1998
Subject: Re: ?
> > test +++ haven't received anything in a full day Me neither. Must be the weekend! :o) Carlos Sa Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Running wires
<< +++ Dick, Food for thought.. I notice that seveal guys have been running their wires through the triangular open area at the top and bottom of the spar where the ribs attach. You might consider slipping some small PVC tubing in from one end of the wing to the other and then secure it on one or both ends with adhesive so it won't slip back out, then run your wires through it ... presto, a nice no abrasion way to route the wires. If you have trouble sliding it in because it won't stay straight enough, try inserting a long stiff wire or rod in the tubing, then slide the whole thing in place and withdraw the stiffener. Hope this helps. Fred >> Thanks, Fred. I had thought about that before riveting but decided against it because the rivet balls took up so much space. In one wing, I have three sets of wires (nav, strobe, and landing lights) and all three together will not fit the triangular holes with those rivet balls in place. What I could do is run one or two thin wires through a tube as you suggest on the bottom and then another set above. The tube idea is good -- it keeps the wires away from possible gasoline fumes (I also have wing tanks). It looks like I will need to re-route the wires before transporting the wings to the hangar. Thanks, again. Dick (601-HDS, installed aileron control cables and riveted the rear fuselage to the center wing). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Running wires
>What I could do is run one or two thin wires through a tube as you suggest on >the bottom and then another set above. The tube idea is good -- it keeps the >wires away from possible gasoline fumes (I also have wing tanks). >Dick (601-HDS ++++ Dick, Glad the idea will help you. I took the time to drill holes and install grommets, but after considering the idea I submitted, I may use the same thing on my own wings because it will support the wires over a continuous length, and as you pointed out, keep wing tank fumes away from the wires too. Good point! Are you going to Oshkosh? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Emergency Landing
Date: Jul 19, 1998
I was planning to give you all an update soon on the performance measurements of my HDS but unfortunately I had a partial engine failure on Friday so the testing is cut short for a while. The engine (NSI Subaru) began running very rough and lost power and oil pressure. I didn't think it was likely that it would keep running for very long and as I was only getting 4,000 rpm I could only just maintain level flight. I was over open farmland, actually in our local practice area, so I elected to land while I still had some power. It's amazing how rough the fields look when you know you are going to have to land on one of them! I chose a relatively smooth looking field which turned out to have quite a high hay crop on it. The field also had an uphill slope which would help to slow the plane down quicker (the brakes really aren't much use for anything other than taxiing). As I got close to the field I realized how high the crop was but by that time I was committed. All went well though and there was no damage to the plane, none to me, and not much to the crop. Notice my order of priority. The stability of the plane on landing was excellent. From looking at the fresh scrapes on the gear legs the nose gear probably compressed about 5" and one of the mains about 3". I didn't feel there was any tendency to nose over. Naturally I had all of the up elevator on that there was. The HDS glides like a brick so having some engine power was a real plus. It's ironic that I was in the practice area to try some forced approaches. My first one ended up being for real. I was talking to the local tower during the incident so they reported to the police, who came out and picked me up. After filling out a report and talking to the Air Safety Officer for this area it was back to the field to pull off the wings and get the aircraft hauled out. I was back in my hangar by 10:00 pm the same day. The next day I discovered that the problem was a broken push rod. That explains the rough running and according to the tech rep from NSI he said that it also accounts for the oil pressure loss. Apparently with the rod out of the cam follower there is a large enough opening for the oil to flow through that the loss of back pressure brings the oil pressure down to almost zero. The good news is that there is still oil flow and so other internal engine damage is unlikely from a few minutes running. On reflection I probably still had about 3 to 5 pounds of pressure indicated on the gauge. It sure looked like zero at the time though! In fairness to NSI, the problem was probably caused by too large valve clearances. I had adjusted the clearances after 5 hours of engine operation as called for but for some reason they increased after that. It doesn't seem likely to me that I could have been consistently wrong with the adjustment, it's something I have done many, many times in my life, so I guess a few more hours of operation before the adjustment would have been better. You can be sure that I will check often for the next few operating hours. With regards to NSI, I have been critical of them in the past but I have had a very positive experience with them in dealing with my overheating problem. They are now using a larger radiator and sent me a new one on exchange with no hesitation. I talked to them late on Thursday before the July long weekend and the shipping lady promised to get it out before she went home. I took delivery one week later in Canada which included time to clear customs. Maybe they really have cleaned up their act. More later when I'm back in the air. Don, I have lost your e-mail address, if you send me a short note I'll reply with some more info that I got from NSI. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Emergency Landing
Date: Jul 19, 1998
Way to go Alan! Glad to hear you are still with us after your adventure on Friday. Sounds like both good and bad news regarding your engine, but definitely good news regarding your piloting skill and decision-making under a lot of pressure with a brand-new airplane. I think we will have to call you "Cool-Hand Newell" from now on. BTW, has the new rad improved the cooling situation? Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Alan Newell <anewell(at)canuck.com> Date: Sunday, July 19, 1998 10:04 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Emergency Landing > >I was planning to give you all an update soon on the performance >measurements of my HDS but unfortunately I had a partial engine failure on >Friday so the testing is cut short for a while. The engine (NSI Subaru) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 19, 1998
Have any of you out there in Zenith-List Land tried out the Matronics (our host) FuelScan LT (or DX) Fuel Flow Flowrate Indicator/ Managers ? Or any other brand of fuel management systems? I was never crazy about the "top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube. It is good for simplicity but it has no visibility for the bottom half of the tank volume range (the most important half, really). I like the concept of the FuelScan for "real-time" updates on fuel efficiency and "time remaining until empty". This info, compared in real-time with a GPS "time to destination" would give a nice, warm feeling on those long legs between refueling points on cross-country flights. Of course, this measured fuel consumption rate may be innaccurate, and there still is no actual tank level sensor input so the fuel remaining info is just calculated based on the rate and time. I was flying my 601HD last weekend on a 200 mile/ 2 hour circle tour of the outer Perimeter of Calgary's Class C airspace (I have no transponder) and noticed an apparently higher than usual rate of fuel consumption for the rotax 912UL. I don't have any fuel management system, but after landing I put 10 gallons back in instead of the normal 8 (ie. 5 gph instead of 4gph). This is a 25% increase! Of course, the measuring technique is pretty crude. With only 15 useable gallons available, I sure would like to get the most out of them that I safely can. See: http://www.matronics.com for info on the FuelScan. Darryl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 19, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Darryl West <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> I was never crazy about the "top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube. It is good for simplicity but it has no visibility for the bottom half of the tank volume range (the most important half, really). Darryl, I didn't like this arrangement either, so I ran the sight tube down to the bottom of the tank and fastened it to the interior side trim panel. After all, the FAA reg. says the gauge must accurately display an empty tank, not a 1/3 full condition. Cheap fix. George far away from fuel lines to keep the technical councillor happy. George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Outboard 601HDS Speed Wings...
Date: Jul 19, 1998
Hi Everyone, Working on getting the outboard 601HDS speed wing together and having trouble with the end rib. After having looked at both the plans and downloadable instructions I can't find whether the rib's flange is supposed to cover or be covered by the spar extrusions. The pictures (downloadable instructions) indicate that the rib flange is trimmed so you don't have to worry about how the rib's flange and spar extrusions interact. Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated. Don Honabach 601HDS - S/N 6-3770 http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jul 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Darryl said > > I was flying my 601HD last weekend on a 200 mile/ 2 hour circle tour of the > outer Perimeter of Calgary's Class C airspace (I have no transponder) and > noticed an apparently higher than usual rate of fuel consumption for the > rotax 912UL. I don't have any fuel management system, but after landing I > put 10 gallons back in instead of the normal 8 (ie. 5 gph instead of 4gph). Darryl, what is your normal cruising speed in the HD and at what revs? Were you cruising faster than normal on this flight or were you heavier than normal? As always I'm interested in real life 601HD performance. Most of the figures we see are for the HDS. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Building rear fuselage from plans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com>
Subject: Seat Bottom Installation
Hi, Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12 is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks - Andrew ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development) 900 Chelmsford Street Lowell, MA 01851-8207 Tel: (978) 551-5361 Fax: (978) 551-5351 Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 20, 1998
> Of course, this measured fuel consumption rate may be innaccurate, and there > still is no actual tank level sensor input so the fuel remaining info is > just calculated based on the rate and time. Darryl: I have put Datcom level senders (from Aircraft Spruce @ $20 each) in my tanks (fuselage and two wing tanks). They are working well. They require about a 2" hole cut in the tanks. I mounted the senders in the top of the wing tanks and high on the side of the fuselage tank as there is not enough clearance to mount it on the top. Stop by at the hangar and you can take a look at the installation. Feel free to open one of the wing lockers and take a look. In reply to your question in your other post the new radiator has solved my overheating problem. Now once I get my new pushrods I have to start flying the 25 hours off all over again hopefully with no more excitement. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Building on TV
General interest: For those USA builders,on July 22, PBS will be airing a docuntary orginally made for British TV, titled PLANE CRAZY. A guy named Bob Cringely, builds a homebuilt in 28 days. Three one hour episodes will be aired all at once on the 22nd. He not building a Zodiac, but what the heck...He is building a Airplane. As they say,check your local listings. See you at Oshkosh Robin Gould San Jose, CA 601DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: philip polstra <ppolstra(at)inetnow.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Bottom Installation
Andrew Sanclemente wrote: > Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble > figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12 > is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from > 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be > located, or if it matters. I don't think it matters at all. I just roughly centered the seat bottoms so that I wouldn't be sitting on a rivet line. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 20, 1998
Subject: Fuel Senders
Daryl; Can you tell us a bit how these fuel senders work? Are they electric? Do they have meters? What about having to remove or service the sender? What about the "shape" of the tank? Seems like that would influence the positioning of the sensor... Thanks; James > Darryl: > I have put Datcom level senders (from Aircraft Spruce @ $20 each) in my > tanks (fuselage and two wing tanks). They are working well. They require > about a 2" hole cut in the tanks. I mounted the senders in the top of the ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "n1gfzr39" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
Date: Jul 20, 1998
For Sale; 1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD T.T 51 hrs. Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T. G.S.C.Prop VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder Narco A.D.F. Full Instruments Alt. Static Cabin Vents Elect. Elevator Trim Elect. Aileron Trim Nav & Strobe Lights D.C. Booster Pump Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump Completely Upholstered Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable ) 3 Point Seat Belts Tow Bar Landing Light in Stbd. Wing Disc Brakes Colour Burgundy on White Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be seen to be appreciated. I will send pictures on request. Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S. Any interested persons please contact, Eugene G. Cowie 211 Brookside Drive Kingston N.S. Canada B0P 1R0 902 765 2214 E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca Thank you for posting this AD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Bottom Installation
Andrew Sanclemente wrote: > > Hi, > Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble > figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12 > is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from > 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be > located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated, Just make it 10mm and you can adjust the final sitting level by padding ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 20, 1998
Subject: Re: Seat Bottom Installation
<< Hi, Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12 is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks - Andrew >> Probably shouldn't matter - I'd shoot for 20 mm above the bottom of the seat panel - use wooden spacers. Watch out for the seat belt bracket - they may interfere with the seat bottom panel. You may end up installing the seat bottom close to the bottom of the seat panel to clear the seat belt bracket and use more cushions to get the desired height. Looks like that is how I am going to do it, wthin the next few weeks. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 20, 1998
I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax 912UL and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and error?). I actually get about 108 mph sometimes, but it is hard to tell, even with GPS. I usually fly alone at total take-off weight of 887 lbs. There were a fair number of TCUs about, so I may have been seeing variable direction headwinds on my circle tour. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: James Tannock <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk> Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators > > >Darryl, what is your normal cruising speed in the HD and at what >revs? Were you cruising faster than normal on this flight or were >you heavier than normal? As always I'm interested in real life 601HD >performance. Most of the figures we see are for the HDS. > >James Tannock >Nottingham >England >601HD outer wings done from kit >Tail group done from plans >Building rear fuselage from plans > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax 912UL >and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and error?). >I actually get about 108 mph sometimes, >Darryl +++ Hey Darryl, Are these numbers for HD or HDS? Thanks Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: cps <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Fuel Lines
Where do you run the wing tank fuel lines. Do you install a left-right-off valve and where. Where do you install the gascolator. Is the fuelpump installed in the baggage comp. Any help would be appreciated. Chuck ps a friend lent me some foot long drill bits today - BIG help - wish I had ordered before I started a year ago. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 20, 1998
Fred: These numbers are for my 601-HD c/w rotax912UL @ 5500' ASL / 18 deg C (my home base is Springbank Airport [CYBW] just west of Calgary, AB, Canada. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators > > >>I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax 912UL >>and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and error?). >>I actually get about 108 mph sometimes, >>Darryl > >+++ Hey Darryl, Are these numbers for HD or HDS? Thanks Fred > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1998
From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>Have any of you out there in Zenith-List Land tried out the Matronics (our >host) FuelScan LT (or DX) Fuel Flow Flowrate Indicator/ Managers ? Or any >other brand of fuel management systems? I was never crazy about the >"top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube. It is good for simplicity Although our plane isn't yet flying, we have installed both a Skysports capacitance fuel gauge system and the fuel flow sensor for the Grand Rapids Technologies EIS engine monitoring system. The former looks like it may be the same as the "Microflight" fuel gauge system found in the Aircraft Spruce Catalog. I have seen one of this style of capacitance gauge installed at the top of a Zenair fuselage tank. The top of the sender unit is a disc of roughly 3" in diameter and 3/4 of an inch thickness. Since the fuselage tank and top fuselage skin are close together, the skin had to have a section cut out, and a fibreglass bulge installed over top. Or one would have to weld a recess into the top of the fuel tank. We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom of the tank. I think we can still hook it up so that the fuel indications aren't backwards... When buying a capacitance unit, it is necessary to know whether the rod will have to be bent to suit the tank, or whether it needs to be cut to a certain length. It's easy to buy a unit off the shelf and not realize that it isn't "one size fits all". There are different versions depending on whether the rod is bendable (within a certain length near the top), and for different lengths to which the rod can be cut to. The fuel flow option for the EIS is the cheapest electronic fuel flow system I've seen...IF one already happens to be using the EIS for one's engine gauges. Its a $375 US option, giving the usual fuel flow, totalizer, and time remaining. Other than Matronics, the other reasonably priced flow system that I've seen is from DMR, a company in Texas I believe. They have advertised in Sport Aviation, but not all the time. Maybe they're in Kitplanes? For those with electronics experience, one could build one's own system, using one of the $170 US FloScan fuel flow sensors that seem to used by most other fuel flow systems. Their sensors (a number of versions are available) output a particular number of electric pulses per gallon of flow. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Didn't believe it, but happy to say..
Date: Jul 20, 1998
I must admit that it was hard to believe the bowed HDS wing spars included in my kit could easily be straighten when skinning. By the liberal use of clamps and clecoes, I have a very nice and straight spar now. Sometimes you just have to get in there and do it and things just work out. Don Honabach 601HDS - Tempe, AZ Skinning the back half of both the left and right 601HDS wings. http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Seat Bottom Installation
Date: Jul 21, 1998
> > Andrew Sanclemente wrote: > > Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble > > figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12 > > is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from > > 10-30mm. You can fiddle quite a bit of extra height here if you are tall. Get someone with a bandsaw to cut you out seat size in dense polyrethane foam so that it fits the base and back exactly and the upper surface an approximate of you rear end. Make a 1/4in ply blank. Then put foam base in and sit on it with padding. If wrong shape, modity, if necessary start again. When you have it right put the foam blocks in and put the Al seat over them. Reason, the seat metal is light and gets very bent and deformed from people's feet and standing on seat belt buckles. The foam plug will be about 4 in deep in centre, more if you are shortish. As the foam takes the weight, I then put the Al sheet in with self tapping screws so I can take them out if I want to get at anything, or put in between knees sticks. Allow for a couple of sheets of 1in rubber etc padding and cushion. You can then watch passengers stand on seats without the agonising decision as to whether be a gentleman and remain silent or be human and scream. El Nino stinks, have had record floods and two short flights in the last month. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GEOFFHUDSN(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Building on TV
You mention the British three part series on buiding a homebuilt in 28 days. I have already seen it, and it does not do much to encourage safe and sensible building. From what I read on the Zenith list, you guys are way ahead in responsible buiding than the guy in PLANE CRAZY. See what you think. Geoff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Ahem, Gentlemen, Uh, just a thought, here. What about the fuel flow indicators used in automotive applications? A number of these road warriors have fuel consumption gauges. Can they be adapted easily and cheaply?(or at all) Or is this, for reasons I am ignorant of, not feasible? They would be in pretty good supply from the local boneyard. Has anyone tried this? James Neely Captain, Essex Air Force I (Essex Air Force III has just recently lifted off for the first time) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh
> So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to > meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2 > p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent. Is that decided? 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.? How about just one or the other time only so that more people can meet at once? > I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have > always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night > builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to > have still more opportunities than that. I think 10 a.m. only would be a great time to meet, in order to maximize chance meetings. > I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there? I'll be there helping my father represent JPX Aircraft Engines. I'll stop by the Zenair tent around 10 a.m. every morning that I can. The JPX display will be in the UL area this year. Last time we were in the North Aircraft Display area (where Zenair is) and there was practically zero foot traffic through there. We'll have the JPX 4TX90 installed on a Zenair mount and firewall. I look forward to meeting all you "list" guys, and put a face to the words. See you then, Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mackenzie, Hugh" <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca>
Subject: Final Review
Date: Jul 21, 1998
Anyone in the southern Ontario area going to be in the Grimsby area in the next couple weeks? I would really like to get a second set of eyes to review things before the final inspection. Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called wanted $280/scale!! Yes, that's to RENT, Yikes!!! And lastly, are people using the drilled bolts and cotter pins Zenair supplies for the Propeller hub (Stratus Subaru) and Warp Drive prop? If so, how are you torquing down your bolts? I have mounted mine based on the instructions I have received (torque them to the proper value and then continue turning until the holes for the cotter pins line up) but I'm not sure I like this, any comments? With this approach, not all bolts have the same torque and some have more than the stated value. Thanks, Hugh MacKenzie 601HDS C-FXPL Grimsby, Ont. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 21, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 11:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators > > >>We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom of the tank. I think we can still hook it up so that the fuel indications aren't backwards... Peter, What does this sender use for sealing? I've looked at a couple senders, but was unhappy with the cork or rubber gaskets having seen far too many of these leak in marine applications. I have allowed myself to use one in the wing tank, but am afraid of a cockpit fuel leak if one is installed in the lower portions of the header tank. George > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Senders
Date: Jul 21, 1998
> Can you tell us a bit how these fuel senders work? Are they electric? Do they > have meters? What about having to remove or service the sender? > > What about the "shape" of the tank? Seems like that would influence the > positioning of the sensor... The senders are a float type. The float is connected by an adjustable arm to a rheostat which drives a meter. The meters are sold seperately and are about $25. There is a single wire connection from the meter to the sender plus a ground. The senders are attached to the tank with screws so they can be removed if they are accessable. This is easy with the Zodiac wing tanks and tough with the fuselage tank. I made a split aliminum ring to go inside the tank to accept the screws. It has to be split to fit through the hole in the tank. It's the float travel that is important. It needs to be able to move from the bottom of the tank to the top. I had to reshape the arm and bracket to make this work on the fuselage tank but it wasn't hard to figure out how to bend things. I have two meters, one for the fuselage tank and a second which I can switch between each wing tank. You use only one gauge with a three position switch. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Final Review
Date: Jul 21, 1998
My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740 lbs with subaru). I used one normal (0-250 lb) bathroom scale under one wheel and various wood scraps and a bubble level for leveling the other 2 wheels in order to weigh my plane one wheel at a time. Wallmart sells cheapo scales at less than $20 each, and buying 3 of those would make it even simpler. The mains will see the highest load, maybe try slipping your bathroom scale under one to see if it is still in the range (it was on mine). Do your measurements twice to reduce errors. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Mackenzie, Hugh <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 12:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Final Review > > >Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance >and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
Date: Jul 21, 1998
Are these automotive fuel flowrate indicators available as new sold-separate parts or aftermarket items? Does anyone know of any suppliers/ brands / models? I already tried asking around a few auto performance shops and nobody there seemed to know much about them. Obviously the OEM car/truck manufacturers get them from somewhere. Maybe I should ask GM? Darryl -----Original Message----- From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators > >Ahem, Gentlemen, >Uh, just a thought, here. What about the fuel flow indicators used in automotive >applications? A number of these road warriors have fuel consumption gauges. Can >they be adapted easily and cheaply?(or at all) Or is this, for reasons I am >ignorant of, not feasible? >They would be in pretty good supply from the local boneyard. Has anyone tried >this? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net>
Subject: Oshkosh and e-mail
Hi everyone: For those of you whom I correspond with on a regular basis, my e-mail has changed to: cousins(at)globalserve.net and the CH300 Web page has been moved to the address below. Anyone going to Oshkosh, why don't we all meet at the Zenair tent on the 29'th at about 14:30 local??? Cheers Craig _|_ Craig Cousins ___(o)___ / \ C-FTAZ Check out the CH300 builders site at: http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com>
Subject: Fuel sensor sealing (was: fuel flow sensors)
>>>We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom >of the tank. >What does this sender use for sealing? I've looked at a couple senders, but >was unhappy with the cork or rubber gaskets having seen far too many of >these leak in marine applications. I have allowed myself to use one in the Not sure actually - and I'm not in the same city as the airplane. We used whatever came with the unit, but my dad also applied some sort of gasket sealant goo. So all I can say is that our installation is one way of doing things; we don't yet have proof that it's any good. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
"James Neely" Wrote: | (Essex Air Force III has just recently lifted off for the | first time) | James, Who is 'Air Force III' ? Any flight reports? Paul Perry | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: arrival at last
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ. Not bad eh! Ordered the kit on the 27th January and received same on the 21st July. I am a very patient person but I was starting to get a little browned off with the delays. Unpacked the box last night and have begun the inventory, so far only the instructions for mounting the in baggage locker fuel tanks is missing but I'm sure I can play that by ear. I have had the plans since early April so I am fairly familiar with the bits and pieces although the original plans and instructions are pretty poor. The downloadable C.A.D. drawings are much better and I pity anyone who does not have access to the internet both for the excellent info from all you guys and the better drawings. You guys should think yourselves lucky, it has cost me $2450.00 aust just to get the kit here so I can't afford the luxury of botching a part and ordering a replacement from the factory. Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the drawings. As I have not yet seen a Zodiac in the flesh the building will be very interesting to see how they look in reality. keep the information coming, I'm soaking it up like a sponge. Barry Mayne (HDS just beginning) land of OZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: arrival at last
> >Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ. ++++ You have my curiosity up.... where IS OZ that it would cost so much to ship to? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: arrival at last
BARRY MAYNE wrote: Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear > situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the > drawings. I've got 60hrs on mine and know of one with hundreds,(He uses it for training). No worries, Mate! Everything on this plane is primitive, it seems, but "struth, it works just bonzer." Just follow the instructions. If you start trying to second guess the guy who has been producing this bird for over ten years, you'll just double the build time and probably frustrate yourself, (ask me how I know). Hundreds of them fly just fine when built the way Chris Heintz says to build 'em. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Controls...
Date: Jul 21, 1998
Was hoping for some input for fellow builders how are actually flying the 601. It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601 design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios. For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left. It seems like it could be a bit of a pain, but since I've never flown the 601, I probably imagining the worse. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: arrival at last
Barry, Good luck with your kit. I am just finishing up the stabilizer. I have finished the rudder and elevator thus far. To date I have only had to spend $7.25 US for a replacement upper rudder bearing that I drilled incorrectly. I've been careful and lucky!! Use caution with the online construction manuals. They are good but do contain some mistakes. Always reference the drawings when in doubt. Regards, Bill Morelli - USA - Vermont HDS - 6-3798 Finishing Stabilizer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net>
Subject: Re: arrival at last
> >Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear >situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the >drawings. >Hi Barry, Congrats on the kit arrival. That's one of the best parts. I have 700 hrs on the Hobbs on my 601HDS (912/Trike), and recently removed the pilot side main gear for inspection. I fly from a very rough grass strip, and thought for sure the gear sliders would be worn. I was pleasantly suprised to find very little wear-maybe a 4mm indent where the steel gear guides sit most of the time as you taxi. The rest of the sliders showed very little wear. > > Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: arrival at last
Date: Jul 22, 1998
> >Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ. > ++++ You have my curiosity up.... where IS OZ that it would cost so much to > ship to? > Fred Allow me to clarify. Oz is the largish mess blocking up the west Pacific, sometimes known as "The other Island!!" It consists mainly of sand, flies, blacksnakes and a largish sloppy objects called Ozzes, who speak an odd dialect called "Strine!" For historical reasons they often have scars round their ankles and they specialise in underarm bowling! It has one state called Queensland, about four times as big as Texas where there are some real decent people, Texans feels right at home there. The rest of the country want to give it back to the blacks, I understand Queenslanders are being difficult about that. The federal government were going start by taking guns off the Queenslanders and we could hear the laughing from here. On a more serious note am glad the odd Zodiac is being built there, I have always thought they were a very suitable homebuilt. They make some good microlights, such as the Skyfox (version of Kitfox) at Caloundra, a nice machine but which suffers from a speed of only 70-75 mph, too slow if it takes your three days to cross a state. The Jabiru is also on the slow side, and Australias sun is not the best on fabric machines. To fly round the country is about 7000 miles and it has been done in machines as unsuitable as powered parachutes and trikes , (a powered hangglider). I think a in 601 it would be a fun trip. Hope this clarifies the geography,,politics and mores of the Southwest Pacific. The high freight charges are either the cause or result of a massive confrontation going on on the waterfront there lately. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Controls...
Date: Jul 22, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Don Honabach <don(at)pcperfect.com> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 11:57 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Controls... > >For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust >fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left. > I forgot about the radios, Don. I was thinking how to learn to write lefty to copy a clearance.. Guess I'll just stay clear of those controlled ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Final Review
Date: Jul 22, 1998
> > > My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740 > lbs with > subaru). > 740 lbs ?????? I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead filled bolts? > I used one normal (0-250 lb) bathroom scale under one wheel and > various wood scraps and a bubble level for leveling the other 2 wheels > in > order to weigh my plane one wheel at a time. Wallmart sells cheapo > scales at > less than $20 each, and buying 3 of those would make it even simpler. > This is what I did. I also made three measurements rotating the scales from wheel to wheel each time to average out any error in the scales. There was less than two lbs variation between scales. > The > mains will see the highest load, maybe try slipping your bathroom > scale > under one to see if it is still in the range (it was on mine). Do your > measurements twice to reduce errors. > > Darryl > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mackenzie, Hugh <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca> > To: 'zenith-list(at)matronics.com' > Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 12:37 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Final Review > > > > > > > > >Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance > >and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Controls...
Date: Jul 22, 1998
> > Was hoping for some input for fellow builders how are actually flying > the > 601. It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with > your > left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the > 601 > design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power > with > your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the > radios. > For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to > adjust > fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left. > > It seems like it could be a bit of a pain, but since I've never flown > the > 601, I probably imagining the worse. > > Don... I have my radios in the center of the panel. Once the plane is trimmed it is just as stable as any other. So I have no problem releasing the stick long enough to adjust the radio. Jim Weston CH601HDS McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Re: arrival at last
BARRY MAYNE wrote: > Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the > wear situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit >primitive on the drawings. You may be interested to know that at the UK PFA Rally recently the Czech 'Zenair' plant showed quick-build kits for 601 and 701. The Czech plant has been set up with Zenith support and is run by Chip Erwin. They are selling Zenith kits and built aircraft throughout Europe under various national regulations. These kits had machined nylon bushes on nose gear, plus nylon bushes and sliders for main gear on the 601. The gear legs were chromed. The workmanship seemed very good, and by repute the workforce cut their teeth making MIG 21s. The thinking might be that customers for complete 601s (i.e flight schools) would not be satisfied with gear bearing arrangements as per the plans. The Czech company will also supply (to Europe via national distributors) standard full and part kits as per Zenith price lists, and also individual parts. I am thinking of ordering those lovely chromed gear legs and nylon bushes. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Building rear fuselage from plans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Re: arrival at last
In a message dated 7/22/98 3:03:33 AM, fhulen(at)primenet.com writes: <> Last I heard OZ was somewhere over the rainbow. Ok, I apologize. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Final Review
Weston, Jim wrote: > > > > > > > My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740 lbs with > subaru). > Sounds about right. > I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and > my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete > panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead filled > bolts? > I have a suspicion that if you guys used "certified" scales, you'd find your > birds gained a little weight. Bathroom scales are notorious for under-reading > from 5 to 15lb when compared to medical scales, (ask me how I know this 8-) ) > The differences wouldn't perturb me too much,though, since I'd be mostly > concerned w/ where the CG is located, and the 601 isn't particularly weight > sensitive. Someone I knowREALLY well has flown at over 1300# with no problems > in handling or undue increase in TO roll. (800' @ 35deg OAT, ROC was about > 500fpm) BTW, my 601HD/EA81/warp/belt dr. weighs 676lb. Essex AirforceII (EA82, HDS), weighs 700lb. Essex AirforceIII (Jabiru engine,HDS) weighs 568lb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Final Review
Date: Jul 22, 1998
> > > > Weston, Jim wrote: > > <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com> > > > > > > > > > > > My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be > 740 lbs with > > subaru). > > > Sounds about right. > > > I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and > > my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete > > panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead > filled > > bolts? > > > > > I have a suspicion that if you guys used "certified" scales, you'd > find your > > birds gained a little weight. Bathroom scales are notorious for > under-reading > > from 5 to 15lb when compared to medical scales, (ask me how I know > this 8-) ) > > > The differences wouldn't perturb me too much,though, since I'd be > mostly > > concerned w/ where the CG is located, and the 601 isn't particularly > weight > > sensitive. Someone I knowREALLY well has flown at over 1300# with > no problems > > in handling or undue increase in TO roll. (800' @ 35deg OAT, ROC > was about > > 500fpm) > > BTW, my 601HD/EA81/warp/belt dr. weighs 676lb. Essex AirforceII > (EA82, HDS), > weighs 700lb. Essex AirforceIII (Jabiru engine,HDS) weighs 568lb > > I did test my store bought scales against aircraft scales, as well as > a digital scale and there was never more than a two pound variance. > My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to this > number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I also > have the optional wheel pants installed. > > Jim Weston > CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru > McDonough, Ga. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98
>It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601 design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios. I just fly with my left hand for the short time required to adjust radios. It really is not a big deal, and I like the Zodiac philosophy, "as simple as possible, but no simpler", so I would not want to change to dual sticks. Besides, with an armrest the Zodiac is the most comfortable plane to hand-fly that I've ever flown. The best solution, imho, is a good autopilot. Expensive, tho... Glen, N601LZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Final Review
Weston, Jim wrote: > > > > I did test my store bought scales against aircraft scales, as well as > > a digital scale and there was never more than a two pound variance. > > My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to this > > number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I also > > have the optional wheel pants installed. > > Excellent! I wish I could find a scale that accurate. You obviously built her right, then. Mine hasn't got the pants on yet. I'm in the process off making them, and they're sure pretty! (made a set of molds from a carved foam plug). Each weighs about 2.5lb before mounting hardware and paint. So that should translate to 6lb total, (taildragger) I would like to see about 5mph extra w/ these mounted. We'll see. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98
Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote: > - > >It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your > left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601 > design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with > your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios. This is standard w/ Citabria, and such, not a biggie. I mounted my STS handheld down below the centre of the panel, putting the buttons about level w/ the base of the stick. Wrong! I can barely see the screen, and punching in freqs is a pain. Still, until I change my panel, it will have to do. The bird is quite stable, so it's no more than a minor annoyance caused by poor planning on my part. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes....
I've been following the thread about "how do you twiddle the radio knobs when you're flying with the same hand". It's a good thing the Zodiac is so stable, so that's not such a big deal. I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation. I'm a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio users are much more diverse and imaginative. You can get all sorts of shapes, sizes and configurations of ham radios. Big thing right now is a radio with a removable front panel, connected by a cable to the main "brick". You can attach the little panel anywhere and hide the brick anywhere within the constraints of the cable. And the physical sizes of a 50 watt radio are much, much smaller than aviation radios. My mobile 2-meter VHF FM rig is only about 6 inches deep: 3" of radio and 3" of heat sink. ICOM and Val-Com have the right idea with their comm radios: very thin height. Terra has their interesting COM and NAV "1/2 brick" radios. However, their depth into the panel are still "aviation standard", something like 12" deep or so, making it more difficult to use these with any size of header tank... Right now, the best bet for small size appears to be one of the handheld aviation "walkie-talkie" size radios. It's a shame you can't buy something similar or only slightly larger, with big buttons and a big display, for in-panel mounting. Ya know: it wouldn't be too hard to MAKE a VHF AM aviation radio, digital display and all. Wow. You could put as BIG a display as you WANTED on it, make it easy to read and give it big knobs for ease of use, lots of frequency memories, backlighting and high power. You could make it any darn SIZE and SHAPE you want, and you could adhere to the "Karmic" standard for interconnecting it to the airplane. If we had these kind of choices in aviation, you could have a radio in your plane without having to put ANY extra holes in your panel! *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes....
> >I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation. I'm >a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio users are >much more diverse and imaginative. I've thought the same (KG7DM here) but the quantity sold is probably quite small. >Right now, the best bet for small size appears to be one of the handheld >aviation "walkie-talkie" size radios. It's a shame you can't buy something >similar or only slightly larger, with big buttons and a big display, for >in-panel mounting. I have an Icom IC-22, and the point might be that without the battery it is tiny. The battery is the older, on the bottom style, not needed with any other source of power. I've made several prototype radio brackets, and with the belt mount, it's easy to slide on and off certain configurations. I saw a couple mounted in gliders this way, probably with an aux battery, since this was a glider. In any event, and the power is OK with a good antenna, in my limited experience. You can also get portable intercoms that connect to this radio. >James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: stampest(at)wwwinc.com (Stamper, Steve)
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Commentary: Radios for
I agree. When our friends at the FAA join with the FCC we're bound for nothing but fun! Go check out http://www.rst-engr.com/. They aren't there yet but are kicking around some of the ideas you have. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com
Date: Jul 22, 1998
Subject: Engine
Hi everybody, there was a question a few days ago, whether or not a homebuilder can do his or her on engine inspection. Today I found an article in the recent issue of Filght Training, that stated, that a homebuilder can do the inspection work on a certificated aircraft engine, but then this particular engine will lose its certification. It has no effect for the homebuild aircraft, but this engine can't be used on "regular" airplanes. See also: Flight Training, August 98, article "Who, Me? Build an Airplane" on page 72 (BTW: a nice article about homebuilds - especially the last paragraph about participation of spouses 8:) ). Thilo Kind Going on August 8th to Mexico, Mo, to pick up 601 HDS kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Final Review
Date: Jul 23, 1998
> > > My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to > this > > > number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I > also > > > have the optional wheel pants installed. > > > > > Excellent! I wish I could find a scale that accurate. > You obviously built her right, then. > James...I was re-reading my note and noticed that I forgot to mention that my plane is not painted or upholstered yet. This will probably add about 10 lbs which will make it pretty close to your, I believe you call it, Airforce I. I plan to paint and upholster the plane this early fall when the weather starts to cool some. The metal hangar is just too darn hot with this 90 F + temps we have been having. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? What were your impressions? If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help. Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: Jul 23, 1998
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? >What were your impressions? >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? >I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help. I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry! Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be surprised: Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew. Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools available. Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping to see more actual construction with how's and why's. Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's website. In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail oriented. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Controls...
Date: Jul 23, 1998
While the 601 > design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with > your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios. > For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust > fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left. I thought the whole arrangement would take a lot more getting used to that it has. From my limited experience (about 20 hours in 601s) I never even really noticed the different hands from a control point of view. I mounted my radios on the left side of the panel so that I can twist knobs with my left hand. The only time that I have noticed any awkwardness was in trying to record performance data while flying. It's not too hard to hold the stick with your left hand while you write though and trimmed out the aircraft will fly straight & level for quite a while. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98
I like the Zodiac philosophy, "as simple as possible, but no simpler", so >I would not want to change >to dual sticks. Besides, with an armrest the Zodiac is the most >comfortable plane to hand-fly that >I've ever flown. > >The best solution, imho, is a good autopilot. Expensive, tho... > >Glen, N601LZ +++++ OR.... "Here Honey, hold her level for a minute while I change the radio"... Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KEVIN_L_WILLIAMS@HP-USA-om24.om.hp.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
I monitor the list and just had to respond to this. I also had hopes of seeing something more productive with this show. It was entertaining but typical of the "touchy feely, tree hugging" that is presented on PBS. This guy is obviously an intelligent, able sort that has done much. I would think if he can build a Glasair and several other homebuilts, and grow up in the shadow of so many able aviation enthusiasts, he should have been able to clearly see his "plan" was failed from the start. His emotion and passion are commendable but not in this type of work. It was funny to see all his counterparts presented as logical, calm, clear thinking beings and enter from stage right, Mr Head In The Clouds. I liked the program because we all laughed but I am not sure it did much for our cause. I think people look funny at us now as it is. Thank God for the folks at Fisher. I thought I was loosing it for a moment there. Well enough from me. BTW: the lady was his "girlfriend". Happy Building To All! Kevin_L_Williams(at)hp.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy Date: 7/23/98 10:34 AM >Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? >What were your impressions? >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? >I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help. I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry! Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be surprised: Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew. Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools available. Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping to see more actual construction with how's and why's. Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's website. In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail oriented. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marrah, Michael" <MMARRAH(at)ThompsonCoburn.com>
Subject: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Don, I saw the show and was very troubled by it. By way of introduction, I am not (yet) a builder or pilot, but am very interested in both. For the past 8 months or so I have been casually researching private piloting and kit building through all sorts of books, magazines, this site, etc. I've been especially intrigued with the Zenith for the quality and simplicity of its product and the fact that its factory is less than 100 miles away from my home in St. Louis. In any event, one thing that I have been uniformly impressed by from all my information sources is the extremely high level of knowledge and professionalism exhibited by home builders. Because of that I was very troubled by what I felt to be the outrageous conduct of the host of "Plane Crazy." It was clear he had absolutely no plan and no clue how to design, build, or test fly a plane at all -- not to mention in 30 days! His lack of quality and competence was really shocking. It was clear that the only reason he was able to build a plane at all was that he was relegated to becoming a third level helper to factory trained designers and builders of an established kit. Please tell me this guy is not characteristic of the industry! I would not recommend buying the show (for $39.99), but if you get it for free, it seems to me to be a good example of how not to build an experimental. Just my thought. thanks for the soapbox. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 9:35 AM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy > > > >Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? > >What were your impressions? > >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? > >I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your > help. > > > > I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry! > > Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be > surprised: > > > Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A > PERSON > building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he > decided on > building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 > days he > had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera > crew. > Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. > Just > doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools > available. > > Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his > feelings > towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was > hoping > to see more actual construction with how's and why's. > > Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on > the > Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed > Zenith's > website. > > In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more > detail > oriented. > > Don Honabach > Tempe, AZ - 601HDS > Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
I watched it from start to finish and was amazed at what a cry baby this guy was. If he thought he was going to finsh this project in 30, 8 hour days he was "JUST PLANE" stupid. I would have thought he would have assumed from the start that he would be having 30 consecutive 20 hour days. No way around it. I persoanly feel the task could be done if it were approached more systematically and by a person who could do his own drawings. He hadn't done one tiny bit of construction for his first seven days! And I think using fiberglass was a mistake for this project. We might be biased here in the Zenith world but I think he should have gone all metal. He could have purchsed preformed ribs, spars etc from AC spruce and still called it his own design. Anyway, I feel this show was bad for the "homebuilt" movement and it almost makes me (Mr. Conspiracy theory) wonder if there was some alterior motive for broadcasting it. And that host needs to learn that yiddish for "rear end" is tuchas, pronounced tuchhhhhas (real flemmy sound in the voice her. Not "Took-Us" Be that as it may, the show was a hoot. I wonder if I could PBS to do a special on mine and Don's project. Hmmmm, I do know one big wig at TV-3........ I wonder if I could get them to spring for the engine, hmmmmmmm Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Controls...
Don and I know one builder putting pilot controls on the right. Does anyone else see this as a viable solution to the issue being discussed here? I am also considering this but am undecided at this point. Any input would be appreciated. I know it might seem easy, but when flying through and around the Class B airspace in Phoenix it can very taxing to try and right instructions left handed while trying to maintian tight altitude and heading instructions flying over a moutainous valley in the summer. Even the tightest trimmed airplane bounces around in those conditions. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: Jul 23, 1998
> > > Don, I saw the show and was very troubled by it. > > By way of introduction, I am not (yet) a builder or pilot, but am very > interested in both. For the past 8 months or so I have been casually > researching private piloting and kit building through all sorts of > books, magazines, this site, etc. I've been especially intrigued with > the Zenith for the quality and simplicity of its product and the fact > that its factory is less than 100 miles away from my home in St. > Louis. > In any event, one thing that I have been uniformly impressed by from > all > my information sources is the extremely high level of knowledge and > professionalism exhibited by home builders. > > Because of that I was very troubled by what I felt to be the > outrageous > conduct of the host of "Plane Crazy." It was clear he had absolutely > no > plan and no clue how to design, build, or test fly a plane at all -- > not > to mention in 30 days! His lack of quality and competence was really > shocking. It was clear that the only reason he was able to build a > plane at all was that he was relegated to becoming a third level > helper > to factory trained designers and builders of an established kit. > Please > tell me this guy is not characteristic of the industry! > > I would not recommend buying the show (for $39.99), but if you get it > for free, it seems to me to be a good example of how not to build an > experimental. > > Just my thought. thanks for the soapbox. > Mike > AMEN Brother. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Tony; I watched the show and also taped it. I was very interested in it and learned quite a bit about plane building, since I didn't know squat about composite building before I saw it. I got all but the last 3 minutes in SP mode on a long Sony VHS tape, so it's pretty good quality. I don't have a 2nd VCR, but I've been shopping them and I'm considering buying another one very soon. If you wanted me to make a copy of the tape for you, that might be enough reason for me to go ahead and buy one to dub the tape with. Can you buy one of the Sony "8 hr" (in EP mode) tapes and mail it to me with a return mailer enclosed? I'll be glad to copy the tape for you. JKB > > Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? > What were your impressions? > If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? > I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help. > > Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder > > > > > > *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: tomkat(at)t.imap.itd.umich.edu (Dennis Kayner)
Subject: Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? >What were your impressions? >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? >Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder Tony, I taped it and will be happy to send it to you, just email your address to me. My two cents: My wife and I both watched it and enjoyed the show, but took it with a grain of salt. Fisher Aero got some good press out of it. Very impressed with their small company. Dennis Kayner Tecumseh, MI 601 HD plans 2% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: Jimmy L Ayres <jayres(at)entergy.com>
Subject: Ballistic Parachutes
Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance policy. Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next month? Jimmy Ayres 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: More of "Just Plane Crazy"
Hey guys; I saw the show too, and taped it using one of the Sony extra-length tapes (3 hours in "SP" mode), so I've got a decent copy. I even went back and reviewed the last 30 minutes after the show was done. I agree with all the feedback that's been presented here. I think the show has had a POSITIVE effect on this list, of de-cloaking the lurkers. (Nothing wrong with lurking!) Welcome! The most striking part of the whole show is how self-focused Bob was, even to the point of overruling expert industry opinion which he had wonderful access to. That was the FIRST resource he wasted! Building a plane is hard stuff, outside the realm of experience for the "ordinary man". The show pointed out exactly how incredibly difficult it is when one goes scratch-built under such time pressure. I don't know why he stacked the odds so heavily against himself. He didn't have to build a fiberglass plane from scratch and didn't have to count the table and jigs in with his "build time". Tools required to build the kit don't ever get counted in the "time to build" numbers. Why he didn't go for a kit in the first place is a mystery to me. We saw lots of awesome video of a little 1-seat Bradley Aerobat. This would have been a WONDERFUL (aluminum!) plane to built. Shoot, it's rated 150 hours. He'd have had a fighting chance of getting it done, he already had the engine/instruments, and he wouldn't have had to build the jigs. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH BUILDING SOMETHING FOR TV THAT HE'D ALREADY BUILT AND HAD EXPERIENCE WITH? SEcond thing I learned is that on his own, he failed. When he stuck close to the mfr of the kit, he had success. It was VERY informative to see all the failures you set yourself up for when you go it absolutely ALONE. Makes me want to stick very close to the list and the guys at Zenith. Seeing his failure on the TV highly motivated me: it made the danger of NOT FINISHING very real to me. We all got to see what it's like to get to the end of his allotted building time and have nothing but a pile of scrap fiberglass to show for it, and thousands of dollars spent. I was afraid the last hour, when he built the Fisher, was going to turn into a commentary on the lifestyle of those "backwater hicks", particularly the stuff on the church. (Don't criticize the way people live their lives in a show about building planes, on TV.) In the end these "lowly dirt farmers" where the ones, using proven (albeit non-sexy) low-technology methods, who were able to deliver the plane and bring the goal of the TV show within reach. Why in the heck DIDN'T he pick a Zenair plane to build? After all, one's already been done in a week...he could have done an unpainted Zodiac in 30 days. He had access to a great sheetmetal man in the TV show...he could have KICKED BUTT. JKB PS: Any of you computer geeks out there recognize the builder? Bob X. Cringely wrote articles for InfoWeek and other computer magazines for years in which he would divulge computer industry gossip. They even showed one of his "cringely mugs". I haven't seen one of his articles in quite a while, so now I know what he's been up to... *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com>
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
Jimmy, Ive purchased a chute from BRS but have not yet installed, Im still working on completing the fuselage center section. Another builder (Tom Giles) has a completed installation and produced a set of preliminary draft instructions on how to install for a very reasonable fee. Tom is very knowledgeable and an extremely nice guy, he can be contacted at TOMGILES(at)aol.com. The chute install recommended by Zenith will not work according to both the people at BRS and Tom. When I finally get around to installing mine Ill keep everyone posted as to how it goes, - Andrew (601 HDS) > >Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a >ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it >and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance >policy. > >Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next >month? > >Jimmy Ayres >601HDS > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development) 900 Chelmsford Street Lowell, MA 01851-8207 Tel: (978) 551-5361 Fax: (978) 551-5351 Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: This Really Happened
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Guys, this isn't about airplanes, but it's too funny (or scary) not to post. Last night one of our employees who is working a temporary assignment in Pascagoula, MS went out for a few drinks. He met a cute little girl and they hit things off pretty well together. She ended up going home with him and spent the night. This morning he woke up to find both his wallet and his new truck gone. The girls in our office just finished the first verse of the country western song to "honor" this guy: I lost my wallet, I lost my truck, I was so drunk, Can't even remember the _uck. We just hope he won't have another little surprise show up in the next few days. True story Tony Gunn, Houston ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Verse 2
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Guys, this thing just continues to grow. Now it's the "Pascagoula Pick-Up Blues" She stole my wallet, she stole my truck But I can't remember if she was even a good _uck Was the most expensive piece I ever had But I's too drunk, don't know if it was good or it was bad Took the photo of my dawg, and my only set of keys Hope she didn't leave me with some awful sex disease. This poor soul won't be able to show his face around here ever again. It was another employee who ratted him out. I guess some things are just too good to keep secret. What is amazing is how much the women have taken this and run with it. There will probably be 3 more verses by morning. Guys, keep it straight which head should be doin the thinking. Tony ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
>Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next >month? >Jimmy Ayres +++ Yep, it's pretty close for me to go. Can't wait for when my own bird is done so I can fly IT down there. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
Thanks for the input. I have been thinking about this ever since I thought about building. please keep us posted. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: This Really Happened
I hope she was really, really good. Poor guy. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: Jim or Lucy Pollard <jpollard(at)mnsi.net>
Subject: Re: This Really Happened
m> > >Guys, this isn't about airplanes, but it's too funny (or scary) not to >post. > >Last night one of our employees who is working a temporary assignment in >Pascagoula, MS went out for a few drinks. At least he still has his kidneys ;) Jim Pollard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1998
From: "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org>
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
Jimmy L Ayres wrote: > > Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a > ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it > and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance > policy. > Jimmy Ayres > 601HDS > Dear List, I usually try to avoid advertising on this list if I can help it, but in this case, I felt I could help somebody save quite a few bucks. If anyone is interested, I get BRS brand parachute at dealer prices (thanks to my Ultralight flight school). The BRS-5 1200 lb. canister system retails for $3195.00 and I can get them for $2798.00 plus $53 UPS shipping/haz-mat. That's close to $400 off retail. See you Oshkosh-bound guys at the show. Philippe Leroy Cochise Air Sports Center http://www.leroyent.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
Phillipe, Do you know how to attach them the airframe? Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
Date: Jul 23, 1998
Subject: 601HD
601HD for sale, Subaru powered, signed off by the FAA for 40 hour testing. Nice plane but owner died before it could be flown. more info kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com>
Subject: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: Jul 23, 1998
I saw it, did not tape it; was mildly amused but honestly thought to myself how immature he was about the whole project, how unrealistic his expectations were, and how totally unprepared and unprofessional his "first flight attempt" and the first flight were conducted. The true value of the show was his observation that ones hobbies do not make a good full time avocation many times. If he's going to builod again and fly, I suggest he get someone else to do the first flight for him. By the By, any chance his "support" would help us finish our crates??? Dave w -----Original Message----- From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com] Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:35 AM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy >Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"? >What were your impressions? >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out? >I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help. I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry! Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be surprised: Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew. Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools available. Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping to see more actual construction with how's and why's. Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's website. In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail oriented. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Repairman Certificate
A while back someone brought up the question about being able to do work on our engines. The person, I have forgotten who it was, said that since we did not build the engine, we could not maintain it! I presented this question to the EAA and here is the response: Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv. Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman certificate. Regards, Bill Morelli - Vermont HDS - 6-3798 - Finishing tail group ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TWhiteh465(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Controls...
Jim weston unable to send u e-mail at jimweston@delta-air .com please give good e-mail address Toney Whitehead email address twhiteh465(at)aol.com. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Repairman Certificate
Hi, Bill: I tossed that out. Couldn't find where I saw it. Basically I was thinking more of the annual. The annual on the engine actually is only a half dozen points, I've since learned, maybe compression being the most time consuming. I'm assuming we're not talking certificated engines in homebuilts, which some people do, but probably not in the ZAC a/c. The only other advice is non-regulatory, so it's take it or leave it. One is to have every other annual done by someone who might be a disinterested. I guess that would be an A & P. They probably are a little better trained in some respects. Other advice was real obvious like "Don't think the repairmans certificate means you know something, when you clearly don't." There's also the insurance aspect. Thanks. Glad you were able to clear it up. George Sears > >A while back someone brought up the question about being able to do work on >our engines. The person, I have forgotten who it was, said that since we >did not build the engine, we could not maintain it! > >I presented this question to the EAA and here is the response: > >Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do >anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector >hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a >Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You >have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you >want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the >best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv. > >Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman >certificate. > >Regards, >Bill Morelli - Vermont >HDS - 6-3798 - Finishing tail group > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eugene G. Cowie" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
Date: Jul 25, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: n1gfzr39 <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 4:16 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale > >For Sale; >1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD >T.T 51 hrs. >Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T. >G.S.C.Prop >VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom >Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base >Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder >Narco A.D.F. >Full Instruments >Alt. Static >Cabin Vents >Elect. Elevator Trim >Elect. Aileron Trim >Nav & Strobe Lights >D.C. Booster Pump >Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump >Completely Upholstered >Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable ) >3 Point Seat Belts >Tow Bar >Landing Light in Stbd. Wing >Disc Brakes >Colour Burgundy on White > >Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be >seen to be appreciated. >I will send pictures on request. >Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S. > >Any interested persons please contact, >Eugene G. Cowie >211 Brookside Drive >Kingston N.S. Canada >B0P 1R0 >902 765 2214 >E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca > >Thank you for posting this AD > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TWhiteh465(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 25, 1998
Subject: Re: arrival at last
Not having ever built an airplane before I can't say that the plans are not the best. I have read and re-read the instructions for the manufacture of each wing item over and over until I understand them and can thouroughly see how to make the item in my mind. I doubt that there is anyone building an airplane for the first time that will be without understanding from time to time. The support from Zenair for this scratch builder has been great and the support from other builders and my local EAA Chapter keep me alive and ambitious. I have completed all the wing ribs from plywood formers and compared them with kit parts and they have been right-on. This has been very encouraging so I'll continue with the manufacture of the wing spars. Congratulations on receiving your Kit. Happy building Toney Whitehead ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 1998
From: "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org>
Subject: Re: Ballistic Parachutes
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Phillipe, > > Do you know how to attach them the airframe? > > Steve I'll be talking to BRS at Oshkosh to find out more details. So far, BRS tells me that only one guy was working on such a setup. So, we'll see what they have to say. Thanks, Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Hooray!!!
I completed my stab today!!!! Now my entire tail section is done. On to the outboard wings. This actually feels great! Bill Morelli - Vermont HDS - 6-3798 - Starting OB wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Controls...
Date: Jul 26, 1998
Just a thought but we could all probably learn to write with our left hands quicker than undertaking major control mods :-). I recall a string, perhaps a year ago, discussing a design for dual control sticks and I think there was a photo of one such modification in the Zenair builders section of their website. Regards, Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada ---------- > Don and I know one builder putting pilot controls on the right. Does anyone > else see this as a viable solution to the issue being discussed here? I am > also considering this but am undecided at this point. Any input would be > appreciated. I know it might seem easy, but when flying through and around > the Class B airspace in Phoenix it can very taxing to try and right > instructions left handed while trying to maintian tight altitude and heading > instructions flying over a moutainous valley in the summer. Even the tightest > trimmed airplane bounces around in those conditions. > > Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jul 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Controls: dual
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls... Send reply to: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > > Just a thought but we could all probably learn to write with our left hands > quicker than undertaking major control mods :-). > > I recall a string, perhaps a year ago, discussing a design for dual control > sticks and I think there was a photo of one such modification in the Zenair > builders section of their website. > > Regards, > Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada > Craig Cousins has pictures of two suchs systems in his site. http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins/dual.htm One would think this kind of mod would be in the public domain by now, given the interest of builders. Carlos Sa Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: rudder construction
Date: Jul 27, 1998
Hi you all. G'day from the land of black snakes,flies and sand. (that's Australia ). Unpacked the kit and spent 7.5 hours on the inventory and was satisfied it was all there. Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together. I have taken your advise on board and "not" attached the upper bearing brackets until the rudder is mated with the body of the plane, nor have I permanently attached the lower bracket in case the angle needs to be adjusted. I recall someone having trouble fitting the rear white light, Zenith have supplied me with a neat little composite fairing in the nav/strobe kit that looks great when attached to the upper tip of the trailing edge. This is going to be a very enjoyable project but unfortunately work beckons for the next few nights (have to make money for big boy's toys). Especially for Bernie Gunn, "how ya goin mate ! I am in the outback of New South Wales where the yearly temp. varies between 25F to 106F and struth the mozzies have landing lights" Barry Mayne ( rudder almost finished) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Repairman Certificate
<< Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv. Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman certificate. >> That's a good review. I reviewed the regs and it alluded to the fact that we who have the repairman's certificate can do repairs and maintenance on the whole plane. Works for a good-it-yourselfer type guy like myself. Thanks for the review... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 26, 1998
Subject: Fuel Lines
>Where do you run the wing tank fuel lines. Do you install a >left-right-off valve and where. >Where do you install the gascolator. Is the fuelpump installed in the >baggage comp. Any help would be appreciated. >Chuck My fuel lines run through 5/8" holes in the center wing ribs, behind and close to the spar web. The fuel lines themselves are protected by loom tubes (made of hard plastic) whose valleys fit the 5/8" holes. I applied a dab of silicone inside the valleys of the loom tube where they come in contact with the 5/8" rib holes. The gascolator is installed behind the spar web under the seat panel, close to the right side and not directly in front of the 6V??-? front pickup angle. A third fuel line is routed from the gascolator through the spar web. I am not yet finished with the forward fuselage but I may install the fuel pump on the inboard nose rib. I installed small L-angle cut-offs in three or four places along the spar web directly under the seat panel and anchored the fuel line from the left wing with tie-raps thru 1/8" holes (one hole for each cut-off, close to the bend tangent so the fuel line rests on the flat part of the angle). I am waiting for my pictures and am planning to submit photos of this setup to Zenair for possible inclusion in their photo gallery. I have no on-off switch installed for the wing tanks. I plan to use the wing tanks only for long cross-country trips where I can go somewhere and have enough auto fuel to get back. Most of my local flying will be done with the wing tanks empty. I hope this helps. I can think of no better way to keep the lines straight going into the gascolator at it's lowest point and directly out from behind the center wing spar thru the web and neatly going along the right side up to the main tank. No matter how you do it short of routing the fuel lines below the spar and outside the bottom skin (ugh!) you can't avoid making a 5/8" hole through the spar web anywhere, except through the lightening holes (it would look kind of awkward without sharp bends along the web and up the inside fuselage to the main tank). I am sure someone on the list has a better routing method who have not yet responded to a similar thread I started some time ago. Dick (riveted on the floor, heel support and the bolted the firewall). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 26, 1998
Subject: Re: rudder construction
<< Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together. I have taken your advise on board and "not" attached the upper bearing brackets until the rudder is mated with the body of the plane, nor have I permanently attached the lower bracket in case the angle needs to be adjusted. I recall someone having trouble fitting the rear white light, Zenith have supplied me with a neat little composite fairing in the nav/strobe kit that looks great when attached to the upper tip of the trailing edge. This is going to be a very enjoyable project but unfortunately work beckons for the next few nights (have to make money for big boy's toys). Especially for Bernie Gunn, "how ya goin mate ! I am in the outback of New South Wales where the yearly temp. varies between 25F to 106F and struth the mozzies have landing lights" >> Way to go, Barry! Yes, it's a good idea to wait on installing the upper barckets until you are ready to mount the rudder. Fortunately for me, I put on the uper brackets at precisely the measurment given in the plans, but it was a tight fit just a tad. Can see how if I raised it just a millimeter I might have a problem. Have fun with your kit! Dick (601-HDS), working on the front fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: rudder construction
> >Hi you all. G'day from the land of black snakes,flies and sand. >(that's Australia ). Unpacked the kit and spent 7.5 hours on the inventory >and was satisfied it was all there. >Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together. >Barry Mayne ( rudder almost finished) +++++ Welcome to the group Barry, we'll be looking forward to hearing more from you. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes....
Date: Jul 27, 1998
> I've been following the thread about "how do you twiddle the radio knobs > when you're flying with the same hand". It's a good thing the Zodiac > is so stable, so that's not such a big deal. > I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation. I'm > a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio users are > much more diverse and imaginative. James I could not agree more. Wait till you try them as a communication medium. A lot of old Cessnas etc are flying with twenty or thirty year-old radio, much static, QRM and squawks. A mobile phone by comparison comes in loud and clear. I rang an instructor I know and after some conversation said "Whats the hum in the background?" and he replied "Engine, I'm 5000ft up!" I mentioned this to a CAA man saying how come reception on a mobile is about ten times better than a standard radio and he said "I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't say that!" (Mobiles are not supposed to be used from aircraft as the added range may mean interference with other callers.) There is nothing wrong with having your radio in the centre of the panel, you can program in about ten channels and just punch a button. No trouble to reach over and fly with left hand. I often just lay my right wrist in the "Y", a bit more comfortable. My KY 57A being about 11 in deep has to be angled down about 15-20 deg. Bernieg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Controls...
Date: Jul 27, 1998
Toney...you missed the period between Jim and Weston. It should be Jim.Weston@delta-air.com. These computers are picky that way. Jim > ---------- > From: TWhiteh465(at)aol.com[SMTP:TWhiteh465(at)aol.com] > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 11:11 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls... > > > Jim weston unable to send u e-mail at jimweston@delta-air .com please > give > good e-mail address Toney Whitehead email address > twhiteh465(at)aol.com. > > Thanks > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Verse 2 - Revisited
Date: Jul 27, 1998
Well, it's Monday morning (Houston time) and our intrepid Lothario has actually showed his (albeit red) face in the office. He knew he would have to be a man and face the music sooner or later, so he decided to get it over early and showed up here by 7:00 a.m. (Our office gets an early start every day -- most folks from Operations are here by 6 each day). He said he was going to get it over with the guys and then get out of here before the women start showing up, but he hung around too long and the women have cornered him. Now, he truly is dead meat. Turns out the young lady who "borrowed" his truck returned it about 10:30 a.m. that Thursday morning. He found his (empty) wallet under the bed with it's contents "strewn" across the floor. He says he thinks it was a combination of "drunk, tired & a cute little honey" that did him in. He's sworn that the "drunk" part will be taken out of the equation next time. We'll wait and see. See yall at Oshkosh. Tony Gunn, Houston ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: 601XL ???
I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL ... OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away... Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 27, 1998
>I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to >be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL ... >OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm >heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away... >Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS. >Fred Fred, I would love to warn you against this upgrade want / need. It always amazing me how far most of us have come. First getting our ticket and then building a plane, etc. etc. Now it isn't good enough to be building a plane, we must have the "right version". I shouldn't complain since it has fueled my business (computer sales, system networking, and consultanting). Everyone always has to have the latest. Change is good for business. For me, at this moment, just happy to have what appears to be two wings that are true without twist. If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't necessary to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod? Hope to see fellow Zodiac builders at Oshkosh. Leave on Thursday. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS BTW, I have modified the picture layout on my website that chronices my 601HDS project. Hopefully this will allow fellow builders to go straight to areas of interest and not have to wait for all those thumbnails to load. Up to this point I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts? http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Ferguson" <pflyer(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 28, 1998
>If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the >outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't necessary >to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it >anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod? > >Hope to see fellow Zodiac builders at Oshkosh. Leave on Thursday. > >Don Honabach >Tempe, AZ - 601HDS > Don- I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but it did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. Heres a picture of it........ http://www.city-guide.com/baron/images/zodiac44.jpg Peter Ferguson 601HDS Tail and Wings done ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
> I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but it >did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of >the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. Heres a picture of >it........ > >http://www.city-guide.com/baron/images/zodiac44.jpg ++++ Peter, I tried repeatedly to look at the address of the site as written above, but kept getting messages that it couldn't open it. Got another door to get there? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most >systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would >provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts? > >http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac +++++ Went back to your web site and took a fresh look. Sure have some great pictures posted. I've got a question... I brought up the front view of the JPX engine picture. It's too big to fit the screen and need to move it back and forth to see it all, but my question is this... when I ask for a print, I only get the left side of the picture, and a tiny 3/4" strip at the top on a second page. Is there a way to print the entire picture on shots like this? I'm leaving for Oshkosh in a couple of hours, see you "Builders" at the Zenith tent at 10:00 as best I can Wed - Saturday. Fred > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 28, 1998
>+++++ Went back to your web site and took a fresh look. Sure have some great >pictures posted. I've got a question... I brought up the front view of the >JPX engine picture. It's too big to fit the screen and need to move it back >and forth to see it all, but my question is this... when I ask for a print, >I only get the left side of the picture, and a tiny 3/4" strip at the top on >a second page. Is there a way to print the entire picture on shots like this? The easiest way to print "large" graphics correctly on just one piece of paper is to get a good graphics display or editing program. Most of these have a FIT TO PAGE option that will size the graphic so it fits properly on one page. If you have a recent version of Microsoft Word, it should work as well but may be a bit awkard to use with graphic images. Also, some print drivers have built-in FIT TO PAGE options, but this is not very common. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Tail Section Done; Working on Outboard Wings http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GODOFREDO_BARRENECHEA@HP-Netherlands-om1.om.hp.com
Date: Jul 28, 1998
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Don, I just started my project a couple of weeks ago, when my kit arrived to Amsterdam, in The Netherlands. I wanted to tell you that your site, as well as Bruce Bockiu's and this forum help me in deciding to build my own Zodiac. The size of the pics is excellent to get the level of detail I look for when I encounter my doubts. I know that most of the passive readers of this forum admire it (at least in my area). I just wanted to encourage you to keep on going, and tell you that, at least this absolute neophyte to amateur building, looks into your chronicles often, when he needs some confirmation on the progress of his toy... Excellent site! Godo Barrenechea 601 HD Amsterdam > BTW, I have modified the picture layout on my website that chronices my > 601HDS project. Hopefully this will allow fellow builders to go straight to > areas of interest and not have to wait for all those thumbnails to load. Up > to this point I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most > systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would > provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts? ....................................................................... Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 28, 1998
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
In a message dated 7/28/98 1:14:05 PM, fhulen(at)primenet.com writes: <> Me Too.......... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
All right I'll bite what is this 601 XL ??????? ...Tom Decker ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
General Interest: I have just been informed that Zenith has a Jabiru 3300 (six) in some plane their working on. And that plane might be at Oshkosh, could this be the 601XL ???? It also seems that the Jabiru 3300 will be introduced at the show. There are some pictures of the engine on( www.watsonflight.ca ),look under Engine Services. See you at Oshkosh Robin Gould 601HD,San Jose, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 28, 1998
Just how do you flush/tack rivet anyway? John Karnes karnes(at)zoomnet.net -----Original Message----- From: Peter Ferguson <pflyer(at)ibm.net> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL ??? > > I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but it >did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of >the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. >Peter Ferguson >601HDS Tail and Wings done > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 28, 1998
do you flush/tack rivet anyway? John, A flush / tack rivet is one where the head of the rivet is flush with the material. When building the wings, there are two pieces of aluminum that overlap. Since each piece must be attached seperately, the lower sheet is tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without warpage. Don Honabach ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
John Karnes wrote: > > Just how do you flush/tack rivet anyway? > You could use the A4's or A5's with a flat nosepiece (unmodified), on your rivet gun. It's important that you "dimple" the metal first to allow the rivet to sit flush. I don't recommend countersinking anything thinner than .032, or maybe 025, though in this application, strength isn't a biggie. enjoy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 28, 1998
Subject: 601XL Don't Exist?
Hey guys, I don't think a "601XL" exists. I'm aware of: - CH 601 HD/S (most of us build this) - STOL CH 701 (the rest of us build this) - Gemini 620 (twin engined) - STOL CH 801 (New 4-seat version of the 701) and then of course the production planes (CH2000) and the others that LIVE ON such as the CH 200, CH300 and the tiny little twin-engine Cricket. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 28, 1998
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
In a message dated 7/28/98 4:45:46 PM, karnes(at)zoomnet.net writes: <> To tack rivet first do a normal rivet line with whichever hole size is appropriate. 40's (A-4) on the spar of the wings. Then, with a counter sink tool carefully enlarge both the hole in the skin and the hole in the spar underneath. The idea is that when you use a flat rivet head the rivet will flatten out (instead of dome) and hold the skin to the spar just like a cleco only permanent. Use a flat rivet head, I found that Zneair's suggestions for a washer didn't work. It is a little tricky to get it right, but once you do a few it becomes very easy. If you make one a little big, don't worry you can always go up to an A-5. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: "Jason Zwyers" <jason.zwyers(at)telops.gte.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Most of you have never seen my name but some of the first users of this group may remember. I used to post frequently but with a change in jobs, a purchase of a farm (to land my CH-601HD to be) etc. I haven't been very active. BTW, still working on the left wing. The right wing, aleron, stabilizer, elevator, and rudder are "still" done. (When I list each individual assembly it makes me feel like I have more done!!!) Wanted to add my two cents on the DZUS fastener flush riveting issue. To prevent deforming the baggage locker lid I cut some washers out of an old inner tube. I bought two punch type hole punches. One slightly larger then the head of the DZUS fastener and on just smaller then the barrel which has the quarter turn slot however larger then its shank. After cutting them out insert the DZUS through the hole in the baggage lid then slip the washer over the fastener. With the washer sandwiched between the lid and wing skin the lid is very secure and there is no deformation around the head of fastener nor on the lip running around the lid. They also help hold the DZUS in place when the lid is open and keeps them from rattling around or falling out. If anyone is interested I can get a picture scanned. Or if anyone would like some of these "homemade inner tube washers" I will be happy to make them until the inner tube runs out. Jason Zwyers 314-332-7629 314-332-7447 FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
> >>I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to >>be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL >... >>OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm >>heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away... >>Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS. >>Fred > The XL is about the same as the HDS... in terms of speed just a bit faster. It uses the slotted assembly system, which allows the wings to be assembled in about 4 hours, then the skin is slid inside the new "aerogroove" fittings, and bolted down in four spots. Plus some velcro. Makes the whole airplane about a 13 or 14 hour project. Hope I got this right? Probably just wishful thing! George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net>
Subject: Re: Fibreglass
Hi Can anyone help with this? I'm making a fibreglass cooling shroud , and don't know what to use as a release agent on the mould. The mould is made of extruded polystyrene that I'll paint with epoxy resin- then a release agent, then the layup. Any ideas? Cheers, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Fibreglass
Mike Slaughter wrote: > > Hi > Can anyone help with this? > I'm making a fibreglass cooling shroud , and don't know what to use as a > release agent on the mould. The mould is made of extruded polystyrene that > I'll paint with epoxy resin- then a release agent, then the layup. Any ideas? > Cheers, Mike Hi Mike, I've had good success w/ floor wax, making some very pretty wheel pants. I've also used the spray on stuff made specifically for the job, and it's ok too. I like the floor wax much better though. James Neely, Captain, Essex Zenair Force I (sometimes referred to as the Yellow Peril) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net>
Subject: Re: Fibreglass
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net> HI Mike, >I've had good success w/ floor wax, making some very pretty wheel pants. I've also >used the spray on stuff made specifically for the job, and it's ok too. I like the >floor wax much better though. >James Neely, >Captain, Essex Zenair Force I (sometimes referred to as the Yellow Peril) > >Thanks Captain James, You can probably help me out some more. My buddy who knows all about fibreglassing has gone to Oshkosh,(to check out the XL) so I'm on my own. He recommends painting epoxy resin over the styrofoam mould, then the release agent, then the layup. Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the release agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is it so you can get a smoother internal surface? Cheers, Mike >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca>
Subject: Controls: dual
Date: Jul 29, 1998
I have about 10 hours in rented 601's and found the stick position to be a bit of a pain when you need to write stuff. For our own plane, I have been thinking of some sort of extension to the left hand arm of the standard "Y" stick...this would give easy left hand control without being such a major mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would have to swing out of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have any comments or suggestions? BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading for a few months. This is a great group and with lot's of good info and helpful, civil folks. A belated but hardy thanks is in order for all your posts so far. I am the middle partner in a father/son/grandson team building a 601HD in Newmarket, Ontario, Canada. So far we have both outboard wings and rudder done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered. Happy building! Chris Atkinson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1998
From: Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fibreglass
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net> <3.0.1.32.19980728232531.006dcc08(at)mail.interhop.net> Mike Slaughter wrote: ,.. Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the release > agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is > it so you can get a smoother internal surface? Cheers, Mike Mike: One possible reason (Next statment assumes that you are using polyester resin for the layup)The main reason that you do not put Polyester resin on styrofoam is that the resin melts the foam.The epoxy resin will not effect the foam,there by protecting it from the layup materials. Robin G. 601HD,CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Don Honabach wrote: > A flush / tack rivet is one where the head of the rivet is flush with the > material. When building the wings, there are two pieces of aluminum that > overlap. Since each piece must be attached seperately, the lower sheet is > tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without warpage. Why "MUST" be attached separately ??? On the 701, the manual says that the rear skins (upper and lower) MUST be first flush-riveted on the spar extrusions, then the nose skin normal-riveted above. I riveted both skins on the extrusion with one single normal rivet, with less trouble, no warpage, and probably the same final strength and stiffness. Tack-riveting a 0.4mm alum sheet needs more skill than I have to be correctly and safely done. Claude. 701 being sanded for painting (f...g job). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Fibreglass
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net> <3.0.1.32.19980728232531.006dcc08(at)mail.interhop.net> Mike Slaughter wrote: Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the release > agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is > it so you can get a smoother internal surface? > Cheers, Mike > Yup, that would do it, but why not use sometnig cheaper, like several coats of latex paint, (hmmm...is this cheaper?) I assume you want a super smooth inside surface. If not, don't use a release agent at all, just lay up over the styrofoam and use gas or laquer thinner to melt the foam out. Or dig it out. the surface wont be perfectly smooth, but not much, if any, rougher than the styrofoam. It depends on what you're after. I hope this helps James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Controls: dual
Chris Atkinson wrote: > So far we have both outboard wings and rudder > done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered. > Excellent, Chris! I'm in the Essex area, been flying my 601HDTDsoob for a year now. Us lefties don't seem to mind the stick position at all. hehehe! Maybe you could fly the right seat..hmmm, that's not a totally idiotic suggestion, now I think about it. It is your plane...fly whatever damn seat you like. Have you been in contact w/ Mike Fothergill in your area? Regards, James Neely Captain, Essex Zenairforce I ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Plathey wrote: > 701 being sanded for painting (f...g job). > Non sanding primer works great, as long as you use alumiprep and alodine first.8-) James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net>
Subject: Controls: dual
A >I have about 10 hours in rented 601's and found the stick position to be a >bit of a pain when you need to write stuff. For our own plane, I have been >thinking of some sort of extension to the left hand arm of the standard "Y" >stick...this would give easy left hand control without being such a major >mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would have to swing out >of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have any comments or >suggestions? > >BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading for a few months. This is >a great group and with lot's of good info and helpful, civil folks. A >belated but hardy thanks is in order for all your posts so far. I am the >middle partner in a father/son/grandson team building a 601HD in Newmarket, >Ontario, Canada. So far we have both outboard wings and rudder >done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered. > >Happy building! > >Chris Atkinson >> Hi Chris, Come on over to Baldwin Airport-about 20 mins from Newmarket- and check out a couple of airplanes. My flying buddy( Mike Fothergill) and myself have our 2 601HDS' parked there. A trike (mine) and a taildragger. There's is also another 601 parked at Oshawa (owned by Dave Austin). All three have the same paint scheme so we can pretend we're an aerobatic team. This weekend is not a good idea- Mike is at Oshkosh (with Dave), I'm best man at a wedding, and there's an International Skydiving event going on all week at Baldwin. Give me a call at 905 478 8477 . To this group, thanks for the response to my fibreglassing questions-you've saved me time and money. Cheers, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
Date: Jul 29, 1998
>> tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without warpage. > >Why "MUST" be attached separately ??? For my particular project is was necessary to first tack rivet the rear skins to keep the spars straight. My spars that were supplied by ZAC had bowed by almost an 3/4 inch at the ends. I'm sure I could of made a jig of some sort to hold the spar straight and do both skins (rear and front), but that was more difficult than just clamping that skin to the spar and making it straight and then drilling. Not to mention that it's hard enough to install one skin properly, installing two at the same time makes my head hurt. As a side note, this is also how ZAC suggests you do the skinning process in their PDF downloadable instructions. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: 601XL
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953561(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> I recently saw an ad for Zenith that listed the 601HD, 701, 801 and 601XL....no mention of the 601HDS. The 601XL had listed as an engine option the new Jabiru 3300. To those lucky enough to go to OSH, please post what you find out about the Jabiru and JPX engine's for the 601HDS. I can't complain, at least I made Sun n Fun. Roger Kilby N98RK - 601HDS - working on center wing.... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 29, 1998
Subject: Re: 601XL
Roger, I second your motion. The Jabiru 6 cylinder and the JPX 90 are at the top of my engine wish list at this time. Dying to hear about the performance of the Jabiru on the 601. Now if we can just get Philippe to sweet talk JPX into getting a 90 to Chris for evaluation, we would have good info from Chris to make the final decision. As for the right/left controversy, I'm seriously thinking of setting up my Zodiac for right seat flying. Don't think I could read the scribbling from my left hand!! For all the fellow builders making the pilgrimage to Mecca, have a safe trip. Cliff Martin 601HDS #6-3694 Still in a holding pattern ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: 601XL
Date: Jul 29, 1998
>Roger, > >I second your motion. The Jabiru 6 cylinder and the JPX 90 are at the top of >my engine wish list at this time. Dying to hear about the performance of the >Jabiru on the 601. Now if we can just get Philippe to sweet talk JPX into >getting a 90 to Chris for evaluation, we would have good info from Chris to >make the final decision. I've committed to Phil for the JPX 90 engine. I'm hoping to have my HDS flying by the 1st quater of 1999. Will be happy to report performance figures and general tid bits. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca>
Subject: Controls: dual
Date: Jul 29, 1998
Thanks for the warm welcome, James. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Mike yet but maybe will soon. Thanks for your right-seat idea too...like I always say, "I'd give me right arm to be ambidextrous" ;~) Chris -----Original Message----- From: James Neely [SMTP:asp(at)jet2.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 6:50 AM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls: dual I'm in the Essex area, been flying my 601HDTDsoob for a year now. Us lefties don't seem to mind the stick position at all. hehehe! Maybe you could fly the right seat..hmmm, that's not a totally idiotic suggestion, now I think about it. It is your plane...fly whatever damn seat you like. Have you been in contact w/ Mike Fothergill in your area? Regards, James Neely Captain, Essex Zenairforce I ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1998
From: "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com>
Subject: Controls: dual
"Chris Atkinson" Wrote: ...this would give easy left hand control without | being such a major | mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would | have to swing out | of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have | any comments or | suggestions? Chris, I considered building a KR2 before starting my 601. That design uses a central torque tube like the 601, but has two between-the-leg sticks on the ends a low sitting horizontal tube which attaches to the torque tube. Seems crude for dual control, but it is simple and I guess it works! I have wondered if this system might work in the 601. Paul Perry | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca>
Subject: Controls: dual
Date: Jul 29, 1998
Thanks Mike...I'd love to come see the plans! Baldwin is prime contender for a future base for us too. I'll e-mail you direct to tee something up. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Slaughter [SMTP:mslaughter(at)interhop.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 8:53 AM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Controls: dual Hi Chris, Come on over to Baldwin Airport-about 20 mins from Newmarket- and check out a couple of airplanes. My flying buddy( Mike Fothergill) and myself have our 2 601HDS' parked there. A trike (mine) and a taildragger. There's is also another 601 parked at Oshawa (owned by Dave Austin). All three have the same paint scheme so we can pretend we're an aerobatic team. This weekend is not a good idea- Mike is at Oshkosh (with Dave), I'm best man at a wedding, and there's an International Skydiving event going on all week at Baldwin. Give me a call at 905 478 8477 . To this group, thanks for the response to my fibreglassing questions-you've saved me time and money. Cheers, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jul 29, 1998
Subject: Controls: dual
> like I > always say, "I'd give me right arm to be ambidextrous" ;~) Chris That can be arranged ! ;o) Sorry, sorry, but I couldn't resist . Carlos Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: 601XL ???
James Neely wrote: > > 701 being sanded for painting (f...g job). > > Non sanding primer works great, as long as you use alumiprep and alodine first.8-) > James I used zinc chromate. But that day, ants in the garage roof did housekeeping, the wind decided to blow like never, and mosquitos came for tasting the chromate. Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
From: hbruijns(at)swbi.net (Harry Bruijns)
Subject: Re: Zenith-List-request
Date: Jul 30, 1998
(un)subscribe 510-606-1001) > > >Listers, > >After many months of waiting, I will be at long last upgrading my Internet >connectivity! Depending on the condition of my line, I could be getting >as high as a 1.1Mb dedicated connection. At the same time, I will be moving >all of the Matronics web pages, the RV and Zenith List web pages, and the >Matronics FTP server over to a new and much faster server. All of the current >hostnames will remain the same; however, the IP subnet will change and a >DNS update will occur. After a DNS update, about 80% of the world will >be able to communicate right away, with the remaining 20% figuring it out >over a period of a week or so. > >So, what does this all really mean? Starting tomorrow, Wednesday June 10 >well it goes, List messages may or may not be processed, and some messages >will likely be lost. I would strongly recommend _not_ posting any messages >and stable, I will post a messages to the Lists indicating that things >are back online and DNS is at the 80% level. This will likely be late >Wednesday or probably Thursday. > >Note that access to the Matronics Web and FTP sites will also be affected and >may be unavailable until Thursday as well. > >Thank you for your patience during this period of transition. I'm >confident that the new service will be noticable improvment in performance >and reliability and since all of the computer systems providing the >services will now be locally resident, administration should be far >easier too! > >Look for an update soon! > >Matt Dralle >RV and Zenith List Admin. > > >-- > >Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 >925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email >http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines
Date: Jul 31, 1998
> > I have no on-off switch installed for the wing tanks. I plan to use the > wing tanks only for long cross-country trips where I can go somewhere and > have enough auto fuel to get back. Most of my local flying will be done > with the wing tanks empty. I don't really get this statement. The gascolator usually goes on the front of firewall at bottom. A line goes from each wing tank to the fuel pump. I routed them behind the main spar, so two fuel cocks are mounted on the front of the spar, one between each person's feet, then forward to the fuel pump on the right rear of firewall. So one selects right or left tank, flicks on fuel pump and away she goes. If both cocks are left on she sucks air from the empty tank. I doubt you will ever fly with wing tanks empty. At least a couple of gallons reserve in one tank is mighty comforting to the soul. I went on an hours flight yeaterday, above scattered to broken cloud with 5 knot northerly but a lot of low mist and very obscured ground visibility. Was carrying at least five hours fuel. After 45 min started to look really socked in with low rain so flew recip course home in bright sun but did not bother to turn on GPS. Found ground almost invisible in places in low fog and mist but spiralled down a hole when time back to base had expired, to find I was 15 miles east of where I ought to have been, wind had swung to west and gone up to 35 knots, so in an hour had drifted quite a long way. Weather rep had said "Winds light and variable northerly, going to west tomorrow" I didn't need the extra gas, but suppose I had flown more than an hour each way, could have been handy. As some sage said, "Ain't nothin' so useless as gas not in tank!" Bernie G. 601 ULA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 1998
From: Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com>
Subject: Seat Belts
What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib? I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated! Andrew SanClemente 601HDS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development) 900 Chelmsford Street Lowell, MA 01851-8207 Tel: (978) 551-5361 Fax: (978) 551-5351 Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: 601XL Confirmed
Date: Jul 31, 1998
I don't know if the rest of you have noticed yet, but Zenith now has an update on their Internet web site, re: the new 601XL. It is complete with spec's, performance figures, photos and pricing. Looks like a nice plane. New wing design, flaps, 100+ hp engine, wing tanks (no header), and more. Jim Weston CH601HDS McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jul 31, 1998
Subject: Re: 601XL Confirmed
Jim; Thanks for the confirmation on the XL: I looked at the pages. It's a 601HDS with a different engine, a modified airfoil, flaps and wing tanks. Thanks to the guys at Zenith for listening and providing the web update! ZAC has, in my opinion, the best company web page out there! Looks like the improvements we've been wanting in the 601 have arrived. Tail group is the same on this plane. Those of us who have only done the empennage and not bought the whole kit might be able to switch. Seems to me that you might could get similar performance out of your 601HDS with the new Rotax, Subaru or Jabiru engines? I don't mean to sound like sour grapes: I plan to continue with the HDS without any regrets at all. With the flexibility we have in building the HDS, we can get a very close approximation of the XL without the airfoil benefits. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jul 31, 1998
Subject: 601 XL
ZAC added a picture of the prototype this afternoon. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/index.html Carlos Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Torque Wrench
This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft. Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform to complete my HDS? You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy only one if that is possible. Regards, Bill Morelli - Vermont HDS - 6-3798 tail group finished - working OB wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Wrench
Date: Jul 31, 1998
Bill: I have a torque wrench that runs from 25 to 250 inch pounds. This covers everything in the airframe construction. You will only need a larger one (foot pound vs inch pound) if you get into major engine work. Regards, Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada ---------- > This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft. > > Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can > purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform > to complete my HDS? > > You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy only > one if that is possible. > > Regards, > Bill Morelli - Vermont ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eugene G. Cowie" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
Date: Jul 31, 1998
-----Original Message----- From: Eugene G. Cowie <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 7:29 PM Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale > > >-----Original Message----- >From: n1gfzr39 <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> >To: Zenith List >Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 4:16 PM >Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale > > >> >>For Sale; >>1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD >>T.T 51 hrs. >>Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T. >>G.S.C.Prop >>VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom >>Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base >>Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder >>Narco A.D.F. >>Full Instruments >>Alt. Static >>Cabin Vents >>Elect. Elevator Trim >>Elect. Aileron Trim >>Nav & Strobe Lights >>D.C. Booster Pump >>Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump >>Completely Upholstered >>Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable ) >>3 Point Seat Belts >>Tow Bar >>Landing Light in Stbd. Wing >>Disc Brakes >>Colour Burgundy on White >> >>Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be >>seen to be appreciated. >>I will send pictures on request. >>Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S. >> >>Any interested persons please contact, >>Eugene G. Cowie >>211 Brookside Drive >>Kingston N.S. Canada >>B0P 1R0 >>902 765 2214 >>E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca >> >>Thank you for posting this AD >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 31, 1998
Subject: Re: Zenith 601XL
I don't know about you guys, but that 601XL sure looks sweet!! I especially like the mod to the canopy, hope it can be adapted to the existing 601HDS. Be interested to hear what effect the 3300 will have on the 601HDS old speed wing design. Maybe something between the 125 we hoped for and the 145mph they say for the XL? I got to get back on my plane, these new mods are driving me crazy!!! Cliff Martin #6-3694 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 1998
From: Leo Gates <leogates(at)tooeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Wrench
Bill: I have two torque wrenches. One 20 to 200 Inch/Lbs. The other is 10 to 150 Foot/Lbs. Bought them from JC Whitney $22 for one and $24 (US) for the other. Leo Gates Bill Morelli wrote: > > This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft. > > Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can > purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform > to complete my HDS? > > Regards, > Bill Morelli - Vermont > HDS - 6-3798 > tail group finished - working OB wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Belts
Date: Aug 01, 1998
Page 29 of my Construction Manual (Jan. 1995) calls for a 5/16" bolt (AN5). I don't think the direction matters, but I have all the bolt heads facing inboard as a convenience for assembly. They are all out of the way from bodily harm and the head up and forward rule should not apply here. George -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 8:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Seat Belts > >What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the >bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib? >I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated! > > Andrew SanClemente 601HDS > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development) >900 Chelmsford Street >Lowell, MA 01851-8207 >Tel: (978) 551-5361 >Fax: (978) 551-5351 >Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com >Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Wrench
Date: Jul 31, 1998
I have a Torque Wrench with a Vernier type setting handle that "clicks" when you reach the set torque. The printed range is 30 to 150 inch-pounds, but it is easy to get from 20 to 160 or more by rotating an extra 360 degrees on the setting scale. I never needed any other torque wrench on the plane. It is a "UTICA" brand model TCI-150-RA made in Orangeburg, SC. I got it at a large tool store in Calgary (House of Tools, I think?). I recall it was expensive, about $90 CAN. It uses a 1/4" drive, and is a well-made tool. Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 5:47 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Torque Wrench > >This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft. > >Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can >purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform >to complete my HDS? > >You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy only >one if that is possible. > >Regards, >Bill Morelli - Vermont >HDS - 6-3798 >tail group finished - working OB wings > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com
Date: Aug 02, 1998
Subject: 601 XL, zinc chromate
Hi everybody, I'm going next weekend to Mexico, MO, to pick up my 601 HDS kit - now they come out with the 601XL. On the other hand I don't like to be the first guy building the XL (no support like on this list etc.). My workshop (garage) is already setup, workbench (12 x 4) is built, tools are completed. The only thing, that I couldn't find was a metric measurement tape. I checked almost every hardware store here in Delaware. So I called my mother in Germany - they have metric tapes all over the place - and she will send me one. I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for the 601 HDS? Thilo Kind ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 02, 1998
Subject: Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate
<< I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for the >> A/C Spruce has the stuff but they recommend spraying and not brushing. Good luck and welcome to the club. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate
>I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this >stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for the >601 HDS? > >Thilo Kind I purchased 1 quart of zinc chromate from Aircraft Spruce. That should be more than enough to do the aircraft. I am diluting it with laquer thinner about 4 parts thinner to 1 part zinc. I then brush it on with a scotch bright pad. This dilution comes out the same as the wing spars that were done by ZAC. I am only applying zinc chromate to interior metal to metal contact points. Regards, Bill Morelli - Vermont HDS - 6-3798 - Working OB wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith 601XL
Date: Aug 02, 1998
>I don't know about you guys, but that 601XL sure looks sweet!! I especially >like the mod to the canopy, hope it can be adapted to the existing 601HDS. Just back from Oshkosh... According to both Chris and Sebastian Heintz the canopy modification on the XL will be available for the HD(S). It is actually the same canopy with just a different mount. Chris indicated that the canopy plans would be available next year for the HD(S) and Sebastian indicated that they would be available any day. It also is apparently a more difficult install, but the looks of it are just fantastic. They did a real nice job of the XL's cockpit panel. Much better than the HDS they had at the show. They also had a nice built-in aileron servo driven trim tab. Definitely more elegant than the one hanging off the elevator on the HDS and XL plans. Should have pictures on the website (http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac) of both the XL and HDS that were displayed at Oshkosh in the next few days. Mostly up close shots for details. Glad to be back. Hopefully next year I will be able to fly my Zodiac out. Anybody else wanna fly out in your Zodiac for AirVenture 99? A nice formation fly by would be a nice touch as well. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Working on outboard wings. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Just back from seeing 601XL at Oshkosh
Hi Guys... I'm back after 4 really great days at Oshkosh. Perfect weather as far as I am concerned, ita was really nice. You guys have been busy while I was gone, I had 58 messages backed up (including probably about a dozen not relating to Zenith stuff.) THAT took a while to read....! Well, the highlight of the show for me was getting to visit with Chris Heintz for about 45 minutes straight, then off and on short visits on other days of the show. I attended his seminar on the new things for Zenith and of course the 601XL was one of them. I'm pretty tired... take that back, I"M VERY TIRED, but will try to remember as much as possible to pass along. As it sat on the Zenith site at Oshkosh, and as explained by Chris the notable changes are: A completely different wing.. thinner, very little taper form inboard to outboard, looks like the same length at a glance as the HD wing, and FLAPS... The flaps are at the rear of the center section only, where we normally see the "no step" trailing edge on the HDS and HD versions, so the flaps aren't very big. However, Chris said that they reduce the stall speed about 7 miles per hour. The wings were equipped with the leading edge tanks and no header tank in the fuselage. The most obvious change is the forward hinged canopy. Lots more tricky to install (per Chris), but looks great and make a lot of sense. I think it makes the machine look more exotic. The seats are laid back about 2" more than the standard HD or HDS is now (unless you previously arranged to receive the different parts to modify yours already). Per Chris, the firewall was moved about 2" farther forward to answer the needs of so many that have mentioned the desire to have more leg room. Since the longer Jabiru 3300 was up front, and time didn't allow for a new and longer cowling to be made, they had to add a metal band extention on to the rear of the cowl to allow it to slip into the fuse at the firewall and cover the longer engine. I asked Chris a lot of questions, and I'm trying to recall as many as possible for you... Chris was very enthusiastic about the new Jabiru 3300 engine since it was the cleanest and simplest installation he had ever encountered. Per him, you can receive the engine one day, bolt it to the engine mount, hook up the electrical wires, throttle cables and fuel lines, and run the engine the next day. Everybody was blown away at simple and clean the installation was. As far as performance is concerned, Chris said that he definately does NOT have the right prop on it now, but said he was getting about 135 mph when I asked him for actual GPS numbers the way it is. I asked him how much difference he expeted the new 6 cylinder to be over the original 4 cylinder and he thought that once you find the right prop, it would be around 12 to 15 mph on the XL. Chris is a fun guy to talk to, and when I asked him what the XL stood for, he laughed and said he didn't know, it was brought up by the rest of the group. The XL won't be available for a while, I don't remember real clearly on that date, but seemingly it was end of the year or first of next. The HDS will eventually be eliminated.... shucks! I asked him about applying the XL changes to existing 601's and he said that since the wing is an entirely different shape it would not be possible to install XL wings to an existing 601. The canopy and flaps will apply, and he said that it will be about 2 months before plans are available on those. The Jabiru 3300 is rated at 120 hp, thus exceeding the power range stated for the existing 601's of 115 hp, so he is going to look into it and see if there is enough existing margin already in the 601 design to accept the 3300 as it is, or possible might need some additional bracing of the firewall and engine mounts. Speaking of engines, I also got to see in person the JPX engine, mounted on a 601 firewall at their display.... Very, Very, Nice! Well, that's about all I can remember right now. As I said, I just got home after a long drive and I'm pooped! If I think of more, I let you know. On another note, it was good to find a row of Zenith aircraft out there on the ramp this year. 6 of them, including 601s, 300, and a 600. There may have been others somewhere else. The Zenith booth was busy every time I dropped by. And about the BUILDERS DINNER.... WHAT A GOOD TIME AND GOOD FOOD! They really had a nice crowd, over a hundred easily, and as I said above, Great Food! I know the Zenith folks will be reading this, so I'll thank you again for such a nice get-together. It was fun meeting some of you I hear from on this net. Well, there you have it Zenith fans.... Zenith update, fresh off the press. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Insurance
Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a quote from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard liability coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the first flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program . OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and three part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago). What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing liability coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who? I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco will no longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines... not even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have the real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 1998
From: "Rick Hutchison" <rick.hutchison@rurak-assoc.com>
Subject: Re: Just back from seeing 601XL at Oshkosh
Fred: Thanks for the update - next best thing to being there. Rick Hutchison Rurak & Associates, Inc. 1350 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Suite 801 Washington, D.C. 20036 Tel: 202-293-7603 Fax: 202-296-2435 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rolf Wittwer" <rolf(at)dove.net.au>
Subject: Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes....
Date: Aug 03, 1998
---------- James Brigman wrote: > ICOM and Val-Com have the right idea with their comm radios: very thin height. > Terra has their interesting COM and NAV "1/2 brick" radios. However, their > depth into the panel are still "aviation standard", something like 12" deep or > so, making it more difficult to use these with any size of header tank... Check out http://www.globalav.com.au/~globalav/products/glmicro.htm for a small radio. Fits a 2.5 inch hole and is 6.7" long. It is only 4W but can be 10W with an optional power amplifier. Rolf Wittwer "Oz" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: Help....Center wing bottom skin....
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D0295356A(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> The center wing bottom skin has a row of pilot holes between, and perpendicular to, the innermost rib. Are these holes for the channel that supports the rear torque tube bearing? This would mean the holes went at the trailing edge. Please confirm if I'm on the right track as the Zenith plans show very little detail....or I'm just missing the picture :) Thanks........ Roger Kilby N98RK - 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PHFD400(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 03, 1998
Subject: choke and throttle bracket
Question to all out there that have installed the choke and throttle mounting bracket for the 601HDS with the Rotax 912 engine. I made my throttle cable mounting bracket (6E5-2) according to the plan on page #6A for the nosewheel version. However it appears that the choke bracket (6E5-3) if installed as per the drawing, will interfer with the front landing tube. Has anyone else had this problem? Is it ok to raise the choke bracket up to clear the landing tube or will there be other clearence problems then. Would like to hear how others installed their brackets. Jim Olson Tarpon Springs, FL 601HDS N56BJ ready to install engine. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net>
Subject: Re: Insurance
Fred Hulen wrote: > Fred: This sounds very unreasonable. On the Ch300, I pay $1,100 anually for 30 K of hull, 1 million libility and 100K on one passenger seat. This is in Canadian dollars so that would be about 700 US. I priced AVEMCO several times and was not able to get anywhere near close the price I get from BAIG through the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association program. I haven't heard anything concrete about the non insurance of Sub powered airplanes. I think that's just a rumour (say it on the Sub list last year but it was not substantiated.) Keep shopping around Cheers Craig > > Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a quote > from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they > quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard liability > coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the first > flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program . > OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and three > part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago). > What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing liability > coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who? > > I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco will no > longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines... not > even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru > engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have the > real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Insurance
Date: Aug 04, 1998
Fred...I have full coverage Avemco insurance on my 601HDS with a Stratus Subaru for $1200 per year U.S.. The plane is insured for $26K and I had 450 personal flying hours at the time of insuring (A little over 500 now due to flying my 601). I don't know if you are high or low time, but the number of logged flight hours makes a difference. Also, if you can get a minimum of 3 hours of flying time in the same type of aircraft (I did this), before first flight, they will cut the rate some more. I had no problem insuring my Subaru powered plane. Although I did get the insurance started just before all of the rumors started flying. The policy states Subaru engine right on it. I also used the EAA flight advisor and technical advisor programs and received the discounts and had first flight coverage. In fact, Avemco sent addendum's with my policy indicating that I would be covered on the first flight if I had used the Flight Advisor program. Without the addendum's, I read in the standard policy that there is a minimum number of hours before coverage starts, I believe it was 10 hours. Hope this helps, Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru. Now have 54 hours on the plane and it is lots of fun to fly. My wife even enjoys riding in it. Phew!!! McDonough, Ga. > > > Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a > quote > from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they > quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard > liability > coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the > first > flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program . > OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and > three > part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago). > What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing > liability > coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who? > > I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco > will no > longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines... > not > even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru > engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have > the > real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Powerplants
Date: Aug 04, 1998
I am new to the list, so hello all. I have been studying up on the 601 for a couple of months now and am very impressed. I plan to scratch build for economic reasons (and because I've never done anything the easy way.) I downloaded the entire archive list and am currently reading it through, but I wanted to go ahead and post a question. I am trying to plan out the powerplant before I go to cutting on aluminum to avoid "ESS" (engine sticker shock)! I like the 912's but it is a little pricey for the firewall forward package from Zenith. I know there are alot of Soob's out there but I know virtually nothing about a Subaru (except there Japanese...and that typically means well built...) But I am a VW nut from way back and would really like to keep it aircooled anyway. (KISS principle) I understand that the 2180's are a little underpowered for the 601 at 70 horseys but has anyone put a Type 4 in a 601??? They are about 40-50 pounds heavier than a type 1 but much stronger. Great Plains aircraft engines is now offering a type 4 longblock kit (2400CC, I think) That they are rating at 85 horses takeoff, 78 horseys continous output, and that is from Steve Bennet one of the most conservative Aero VW builders there is. Here is a link to check it out... http://greatplainsas.com/engine.html Also there is a guy building a KR2S in Birmingham that is using a type 4 with a lot info on a web page about it at.... http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html He is a serious VDub man and knows them frontwards and backwards. Just wanted to pick the collective brain and hear any opinions on this idea. Anybody out there ever "been there, done that" ? Thanks a ton for reading this far...I can be long-winded if I don't watch it.. Jeremy Casey jrcasey(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Powerplants
Date: Aug 04, 1998
I forgot a P.S. about the powerplant thing...Mark Langford's type 4 page mentions a prop shaft system for the VW engines by Great Plains. There is a page about it (and other things ) at... http://greatplainsas.com/newproducts.html This would be a super-simple system, that would have to be reliable because of the sheer simplicity... And if anyone worries about putting your prop on the end of a shaft (gyroscopic forces???) Look at the Quicksilver ultralights, they do it with great success and the P-39 Airacobra of WW2 was mid-engined and had about an 8-foot prop shaft running right thru the cockpit!!! Jeremy Casey jrcasey(at)mindspring.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets
<< If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't necessary to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod? >> Fred - I did not flush rivet my Dsuz fasteners. The rivet heads in no way interfere with the locker door. Thought you'd like to know... Now to keep reading about the 601XL (yes, I did see it at OSH - advertised cruise speed is 145 MPH, canopy hinge is at the front, and there were a few other mods). Dick (werkin' on the now obsolete 601-HDS model (tell me tain't so)) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Flush riveting
<< only permanent. Use a flat rivet head, I found that Zneair's suggestions for a washer didn't work. It is a little tricky to get it right, but once you do a few it becomes very easy. If you make one a little big, don't worry you can always go up to an A-5. >> Yes, a washer doesn't work - too thin. I use a scrap piece of .125 aluminum, drill a hole through it so the shank of the rivet fits through, then insert the rivet into the designated hole and the shank into the riveter. When holding the riveter on the thick material with a little force, the thick aluminum "washer" will not warp and makes the rivet head flat when done riveting. Works everytime for me. Dick (601-HDS, not XL - don't feel bad) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Seat Belts
<< What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib? I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated! >> Andrew: Look at the parts list that came with your kit and it will list all the hardware and what each is for. If I remember correctly (my kit is at the hangar), you use the AN4-7A bolts for the seat belts, and you can get that info, again, from the parts list.


June 29, 1998 - August 04, 1998

Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-al