Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-al
June 29, 1998 - August 04, 1998
the bent upper longerons.
Everything here is pretty much straight-forward. Hope this helps.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Embarassed to ask... |
<<
What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet?
(Reference: These are used in the top spar extrusions for the outer ribs.)
>>
Use 3/16" drill bit. If the rivet absolutely will not fit, as it it with me
in a few occassion, I used 13/64" drill bit, and those rivets were quite snug.
I had 4 extra A6 rivets, so I used them to rivet the bottom gear bearing
extrusions to the center wing spar.
Enjoy!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench... |
<<
Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit
pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does
anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench?
Out of curiosity, is it bad to over torque a bolt if it doesn't break?
>>
Don:
See if you can get a reasonable torque wrench from a autoparts store. Can't
imagine them costing that much (guess it's because I've had mine about 30
years).
Just because the head doesn't break doesn't mean the bolt is not over-torqued.
You could be close to stripping the threads, hence the importance of proper
torquing.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
Yo!
I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my
rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice
any looseness?
Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
> Yo!
>
> I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All my
> rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice
> any looseness?
>
> Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS)
Neither have I found any looseness in any rivets, whether hand-pulled or
pneumatic. The little ball pulls in tight just like it needs to.
Now there are supposed to be TWO "bulges" in the inside "shaft" of the rivet.
Maybe the rivet is being pulled too tight and it's plowing the inside of the
rivet outward?
JKB
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars |
<<
I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. When I installed my middle
top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I
encountered some waviness between the rivets on the oposite side from
which I started. Is this what you call "oil-canning"? If so, is
there any concern with this other than not looking so good?
>>
Jim:
Yes, this is "oil-canning" - the waviness looks like a part of an old oil can
that is wavy at the seams. From what I recall, others in the list have called
Zenith about it and they said that is it is of much concern, as far as
structural integrity is concerned. However, it's best not to depend on what I
say - you should check with Zenith for your own satisfaction.
I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the
Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use
.016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the
issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear
fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE>Re- Zenith-List- Rivets |
<< All mine are tight. Shouldn't get loose anything!
George Pinneo
Yo!
I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's. All
my
rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice
any looseness?
Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS)
>>
Thanks, George, for the reply. I presume you also used a hand-puller. It is
possible that the pneumatic puller may be pulling the rivets too fast so that
there may be a little debounce that causes the looseness.
Dick, the satisfied hand-riveter...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
>
>> Yo!
>>
>> I use a hand riveter and have noticed no looseness in any of the A5's.
All my
>> rivets are quite tight and strong. Anyone else using a hand riveter notice
>> any looseness?
>>
>> Dick (hand-riveting my 601-HDS)
I just spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he said the balls on the back of the
rivets should NOT be lose. They have no affect on the rivet strength but
should be tight anyway. He thinks I may have a bad batch of rivets and he
is sending me some new ones to try.
I took a couple of scraps and put in 5 rivets using different pressures and
pull speeds and all 5 are lose? I even pulled one at a very low pressure
and turned the pressure up slowly until it popped. It was even slower than
a hand puller and the ball was still lose?
Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The
enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet.
What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the
existing hole?
Thanks,
Bill Morelli (depressed)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
Phillipe & Dick:
Just thought I would contribute to this excellent email list for a change.
I read that you are building the rear baggage shelf now. I generally don't
recommend "beefing up" the structure of an aircraft beyond the original
designer's plan, but this is definitely an area where I DO think it is
necessary.
The problem I found is that the forward edge of the baggage shelf
(immediately behind the seat back) will bend / buckle some day when you (or
your passenger) put your hand on it when entering or exiting the plane, or
else when performing maintenance behind the seats. The original angle
cross-piece that runs the width of the front edge of the shelf is quite thin
and not a 90 degree angle (more like 120 ?) due to the angle of the
seatback. This makes it even weaker than a normal "L" angle. The rest of the
shelf is fine since it only sees well-distributed baggage loads, but it
doesn't take much force concentrated on a hand-sized area to overload the
front edge.
I did not discover this until the airplane was complete, but it was a fairly
easy fix. I drilled/punched out all the rivets attaching the deformed 120
degree angle cross-piece to the baggage shelf and then added a 3/4" x 3/4" x
1/8" (I think) extruded aluminum angle across the width of the cockpit below
the shelf and match-drilled the empty holes to suit. This was all riveted
together so the original (deformed) piece was pulled flat by the new angle
which is not visible with the seats installed.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: RLucka(at)aol.com <RLucka(at)aol.com>
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Baggage floor
>
>
><<
> I'm installing the baggage floor too. Are there any special
> considerations I should be aware of? I've only got the L angles riveted
> on so far, and I've trial fitted the floor to the fuselage. How much
> clearance are you cutting out for the gussets that stick out (for
> attaching the bent alu. tubes)?
> >>
>Phillipe:
>
>After I drilled the baggage floor onto 6F13-6 channel, which was clecoed to
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi fellow builders,
I am getting close to the point where I am to do the wing locker on the
outboard wing. Does anyone have suggestion or drawings on what to do with the
DZUS fasteners? They look to me like one of those "Horse Shoe Nail" puzzles I
had when I was a kid.
My plans or draft manual doesn't say how to attatch these and I have never
worked with this type of closure before.
Anyhints, tips or drawings would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars |
>I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the
>Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use
>016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the
>issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear
>fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place.
>
>Dick (601-HDS)
+++ Please do, I'd like to read in more detail about this. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Contribution Page Back Online... |
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If you would like to make a contribution to support the continued operation
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--
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http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>
>I just spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he said the balls on the back of the
>rivets should NOT be lose. They have no affect on the rivet strength but
>should be tight anyway. He thinks I may have a bad batch of rivets and he
>is sending me some new ones to try.
>
>Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The
>enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet.
>
>Thanks,
>Bill Morelli (depressed)
+++++ Dear Bill, Before you drill out those rivets..... I just called the
EAA Technical Advisor (an engineer as well) and he said that after the ball
has completed the pull it "snaps" loose from the mandral shaft (the part we
find left in our rivet tool), and in no way contributes to the strength of
the rivet thereafter. And, the rivet it'self has no less strength on ones
that he ball may move around a little. He chuckled and said to tell you
that if the ball rattling around in there really bothers you, to take a
tooth pick and some epoxy and put a little dab in there on the back side. He
said the reason that some rattle and some don't usually depends on the "grip
range" of the rivet and the material it's pulled through. He couldn't
imagine that you would consider drilling out the rivets just because the
mandral ball was loose. Remember too that Nicholas said it had no effect
on the rivet strength. I've heard the same "it doesn't matter after the
rivet is pulled" from 3 different "experts" now. I'm sure not going to go
drill out the ones that move on mine! There ya go, is the deprsssion
gone..!? Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
>>Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The
>>enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Bill Morelli (depressed)
>
>+++++ Dear Bill, Before you drill out those rivets.....
The only thing that bugs me about this entire lose rivet thing is this. I
spoke to Art Mitchell of Flypass in Canada. He has built many 601 nad 701
aircraft and can not recall ever having a rivet with a lose ball?
The only builders that have had this happen that I have heard from so far
ar myself and Fred Hulen.
If it is a generic and normal occurance and since we are all riveting
through the same thickness materials with the same rivets, you would think
that all builders would be seeing this.
I have not yet commited to drilling out the rivets. I know that the rivet
strength is not affected.
I am going to order a hand puller (which I want anyway) and see if the
phenomenon goes away.
Thanks,
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
Working Stab (still)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
<< What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the
existing hole? >>
Good news, Bill, I just read the message from Fred. I have removed probably
200 rivets due to errors on my part, had a twist in rear fuselage for a while.
I found that the same drill I used to drill the hole would remove the head and
a small pin punch would usually knock the rivet out with no further drilling.
Concerning the loose pins, all my rivets were pulled pneumatically with the
air pressure set just high enough to set the rivet and no loose pins. BTW,
I'm doing my rudder hinges for the third time, talk about frustration. Happy
building!
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage top skin |
<< When I installed my middle
top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I
encountered some waviness between the rivets on the oposite side from
which I started. >>
This waviness you refer to is caused by the compound angles formed by bending
the skin around the tube and also around the curve of the upper longeron. The
skin will not lie flat without shrinking it and I didn't have the proper
tooling. This was verified for me by ZAC and it appears on the factory
models, so it's just something that you have to live with. I had some of the
same where this skin ends at the front tube due to my rivet placement. I
tried to roll the skin around the tube, but the compound angle thing
confounded my attempts. Mistakes are great teachers though. Same problem
happens on the cover strip at the wing splice (on the HDS only) due to the
upward slope and rearward taper. This one is so bad, we are working on a
composite cover strip. The oil-canning is what would occur if you hadn't
installed those stiffeners in the rear fuselage skin and wing skins. Your
aircraft would sound like an MRI machine run amok.
George... HDS eternally at 80%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
Steve,
The way these Dzus fasteners are mounted on the wing baggage lockers are so
that the smaller coil ends face up below the surface of the wing skin and is
held there by two of the smaller size avex rivets set flat flush (not domed)
from the top surface of the skin downwards. The actual quarter-turn Dzus
"button" inserts through a pair of larger matched-center holes in the locker
cover and the skin edge lip, between the two rivets.
I also put in some small aluminum "back-ups" (small but relatively thick
washers available at most hardware stores, used for increasing the load
spread of pop rivets). In this application I put them as a spacer between
the underside of the wingskin and the coil so the Dzus button would be
tighter when installed. Try the parts for size first since there is often a
lot of difference in dimension between similar dzus parts.
BTW, these backups are also necessary for riveting fibreglass to metal (like
the wingtips).
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com>
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 5:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Dzus Fasteners
>
>Hi fellow builders,
>
>I am getting close to the point where I am to do the wing locker on the
>outboard wing. Does anyone have suggestion or drawings on what to do with
the
>DZUS fasteners? They look to me like one of those "Horse Shoe Nail"
puzzles I
>had when I was a kid.
>
>My plans or draft manual doesn't say how to attatch these and I have never
>worked with this type of closure before.
>
>Anyhints, tips or drawings would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
Dzus also makes a plastic washer you can add under the head. It might help
save the paint. The aluminum grommets would be nice, but require expensive
tools for installation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
>Dzus also makes a plastic washer you can add under the head. It might help
>save the paint.
++++ This may be what I have been looking for. I haven't seen them in the
sources I've checked. Are they really thin, and where can you get them?
AND, does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C"
snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary surface it's
mounted through. I have been making some out of thin aluminum, but as many
as I will need, it's a pain.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
> does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C"
> snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary
> surface it's
> mounted through. I have been making some out of thin aluminum, but as
> many
> as I will need, it's a pain.
>
Fred...I have found that a very small O-ring slipped around the
neck of the Dzus fastener works well to retain it in the primary
material.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru
McDonough, Ga.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
>
>BTW, these backups are also necessary for riveting fibreglass to metal (like
>the wingtips).
>
>Darryl
How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs
of the rivets are not accessible?
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com> |
A good source for the plastic washers and anything else related to aircraft
fasteners is Skybolt. Get their catalog which includes info on how to
install the dzus and other fasteners. Sales at 800-223-1963 info at
407-889-2613 or on the web at skybolt.com.
Tim Cotter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Loose Rivet Depression... |
> Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The
> enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet.
>
> What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the
> existing hole?
Bill;
I don't know how much you've drilled out rivets, but it's not hard at all. I
surely don't want you to be discouraged - it's easy when you get the hang of
it. If you, or anyone else on the list is interested, here's how I do it:
Use the same size drill bit originally required to set the rivet. Look in your
toolbox and find one with a sharper point, not a shallow point. I think you're
looking for something at 100-degree rake or less on the point.
Start drilling the head of the rivet with light pressure, watching carefully for
the head of the rivet to spin free. You want to make sure the bit remains lined
up inside the hole of the rivet: don't let it walk off the hole. Using light
pressure will help this.
"Spinning off the head" will take only a short time, maybe 30 seconds or so.
it'll come off and usually stick to the drill bit. Stop drilling and pull the
little "ring" off the bit.
You'll be left with the stubby nub of the rivet hanging in the hole. Using this
same bit, keep going into the body of the rivet. You don't have to drill
completely through the rivet. Kinda "ream" a cone-shape into the body of the
rivet. Your goal is to weaken the nub of the rivet by thinning out the walls.
Your drilling time here'll be 30 seconds to 1 minute depending on the bit
and how sharp it is. Stop and take a look when you've got a nice cone shape.
Take a pair of plain 'ol slipjoint pliers and reach around back to the ball
of the rivet. Gently tug on the rivet ball and see if it'll come out. If not,
go back and keep drilling on the "cone" you started in the rivet nub. You'll
quickly reach a point where you can pull the nub of the rivet straight out
with the pliers. Don't "work" the nub out - this'll wrinkle the original
hole and stretch it out. You will reach a point where the nub will just "pop"
out really easy.
HANG IN THERE BILL! Don't let this rivet thing get ya down. One thing I've
found the list can do is it can pick up your spirits and help you get through
the tough parts: It sure has helped me!
JKB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
<< ++++ This may be what I have been looking for. I haven't seen them in the
sources I've checked. Are they really thin, and where can you get them? >>
Got mine from Aircraft Spruce as PN GP5B on page 103 and, yes they are thin.
I have used o-rings for retainers. Plan to try the snap rings on same page.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
Bill:
Good Question!
I did this 5 years ago and don't exactly remember how I did it, but I am
sure I did it on the wing tips.
I did not have the option for the fibreglass stabilizer tips when I was
building, so I can't say on that.
On the wing, perhaps I left the top rear wingtip skin off until last and
reached through the spar tip holes? It probably isn't easy.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dzus Fasteners
>
>
>How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs
>of the rivets are not accessible?
>
>Bill Morelli
>HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
>
> > does anyone know where you can get really thin "retainer" clips or "C"
> > snap washers to RETAIN the Dzus from falling out of the primary
> > surface it's
Best answer is don't use Dzus. I have some in the engline cowl
and have to watch like a hawk I don't lose them in the grass. They are
supposed to come with clips to retain them but didn't. Someone gave me some
plastic washers but they were wrong size.
Airlok ??? I think? are far better as used in Cessnas. They have a
flush tapered philips head and the screw has a short coiled spring with a
metal anchor bit about 1" deep on the inner side. I have them all round the
firewall and can put the cowling on in 2 sec. I use dzus horizontally
because they are not so deep, but they are a pain.
Bernie g
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
> From: Darryl West <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
> I read that you are building the rear baggage shelf now. I generally
don't
> recommend "beefing up" the structure of an aircraft beyond the original
> designer's plan, but this is definitely an area where I DO think it is
> necessary.
Heartily agree,
Mine originally got bent by the electrician and
also a female Mech.eng student who both insisted on sitting on it, but
then it buckled again simply by my leaning back on it, the ply not being
too rigid. As well as parking their oversize bums on it, people also tend
to lean weight on a hand on it when getting in so a bit of reinforcing
angle is weight well spent.
Bernie G.
thing, if a flat
panel bulges somewhat it will flick in and out under different air pressure
when you are flying and make "Boing-Boing" noises, which does not make for
a happy pilot. So try to make panels dead flat without bulges running from
corner to corner etc, it this happens you may have to stiffen with extra
angle. The 601 rarely "oil cans" as the turtle back in the fuselage
stresses the side panels, but it can be very bad in the 701 which has a
square rear fuselange, makes it quite noisy especially in a bit of
turbulence.
Crinkling of edges, eg at rear of cockpit is rarther unsightly but does
not cause structural,problems, wipe in a bit of expoxy putty and or put in
extra rivets.
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
TEST
Darryl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>
>
>
>TEST
>
>Darryl
+++++ High Test or regular Sir? sorry, couldn't help myself.... Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | 3-View Color Scheme Drawings |
Hi to all !
I have (2) Bitmap drawings for use with any picture editor (such as
Microsoft Paint that comes with Windows 95). They are originally from
Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to more accurately
reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent is to have
a blank prototype for builders to easily try out many different paint
schemes for comparison. The "fill" function in MSPaint will quickly fill
in whatever colors you like, and even text for registation numbers/ etc.
Send me a direct email request stating which type (-HD, or -HDS, or
both) you want, and I will send it to your direct email (each file is
874 KB and takes about 3 minutes to download on a 31200 bps connection).
Darryl
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
with any
picture editor (such as Microsoft Paint that comes with Windows 95).
They are
originally from Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to
more
accurately reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent
is to
have a blank prototype for builders to easily try out many different
paint
schemes for comparison. The "fill" function in MSPaint will
quickly
fill in whatever colors you like, and even text for registation numbers/
stating which
type (-HD, or -HDS, or both) you want, and I will send it to your direct
email
(each file is 874 KB and takes about 3 minutes to download on a 31200
bps
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List:Grass Landing Strips |
Fellow Zodiac Builders and Flyers:
Although I still have a long way to go to completing my 601-HDS, I am
exploring an opportunity to acquire some property for a future grass landing
strip. In working with the Dept. of Aviation,State of Virginia, I was asked by
the examiner to acquire some information to help him evaluate the property.
For those of you currently flying a 601-HDS, what has been your experience in
the required distance to land and takeoff in 4" grass? This particular
property is about 1250' above sea level. Another question was how much
distance to clear a 50' object.
Any info you guys can offer will be gratefully appreciated.
One other question.......can Bernie explain what was that female Mech. eng.
student doing in the luggage compartment in the first place??? Curious.
Cliff Martin Zodiac 601-HDS #6-3694
Richmond,Virginia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
>
>Some questions & answers were...
>> I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. When I installed my middle
>> top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I
>> Jim:
>>
>> Yes, this is "oil-canning" - the waviness looks like a part of an old oil
>can
>> that is wavy at the seams.
>
> I would not say this is what is generally meant. When you press the
>bottom of an oil can it is made purposely with a dome in in it so that when
>you press it in it forces oil out, when you do it goes "Boing-Boing".
> Bernie G.
>
This precise term was used to explain the tendency of Tomahawks to
go into unrecoverable spins. The definition in this instance was a
deformation of the wing in flying conditions, at least at times.
The Tomahawk had a rigid wing design during certification, and then
the production model was built with a softer wing. It's more of a
design consideration, unless the skin and wing are assembled wrong.
But, yes, there is a potential problem, obviously.
George Sears
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net> |
I'm adding 1/2 inch nylon bearings to the bottom of my mains. Will this
put to much stress on the bungees streching them the extra 1/2 inch?
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
> From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
> I'm adding 1/2 inch nylon bearings to the bottom of my mains. Will this
> put to much stress on the bungees streching them the extra 1/2 inch?
Missapprehension! The Nylon goes on externally under steel outer "box".
It will restrict the 4 in of travel by 1/2 in but have never seen main gear
legs move more than and inch or two anyway and will give something a bit
softer to "bottom" on if you ever really do bang her down. Nothing has to
be stretched.
Steel on steel must give out a loud "clang", anyone achieved this?
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
George Sears says...
> This precise term (Oil Canning) was used to explain the tendency of
Tomahawks to
> go into unrecoverable spins. The definition in this instance was a
> deformation of the wing in flying conditions, at least at times.
So THATS why my poor Instructor used to go into a screaming fit whenever
I kicked poor old WAB into a sideslip! I thought it was because the
T-tail fell off??
I guess it also explains why Tomahawks have to have wings replaced after
8000hrs. Ardmore Flying School have one, EVB which is supposed to have done
18000 hrs! Means my ULA has only 17,850 to go!
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
>
> How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip rivets when the backs
> of the rivets are not accessible?
>
> Bill Morelli
> HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
>
> Bill;
With tips romoved and the help of clecos,I bonded (Glued) the backups
to the inside of the fiberglass wingtips to keep them in place for the
riveting process(Try to keep the sticky stuff off the cleco). :-)
Robin Gould
HD,San Jose,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Bernie: email problems? |
Bernie,
I tried to send both drawings to you earlier today and got the following
email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for some reason.
I sent another message without the attachments this time: same result.
Is the address correct?
The original message was received at Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:04:12 GMT
from slip129-37-162-72.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.162.72]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 ... Host unknown (Error 281)
Darryl
and got the
following email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for
some
reason. I sent another message without the attachments this time: same
result.
----- The
Host
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy) |
| Subject: | Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings |
Daryl,
Thank you for the 3 view drawings of the 601. I've already got several
paint schemes worked out. THank you again.
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings |
>Zenair's brochure, but I modified them extensively to more accurately
>reflect the actual CH-601-HD and -HDS appearances. The intent is to have
Those original brochure drawings are pretty crude, which is one reason I
haven't used them.
I'd sure appreciate having a copy of your HDS version, whenever you get
around to it.
Peter Chapman
601 HDS project, ready for Oshkosh 99??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com> |
| Subject: | Elevator Piano Hinge |
Last night I attached the elevator to the horiz stab. The hinge was
riveted to the stab., and the elevator is riveted on the bottom, clecoed on
top. To minimize the risk of misalignment, I decided to drill through the
hinge/elevator with the hinge installed as it would be in the finished
assembly. After drilling, I pulled the pin out to deburr. When I tried to
put the pin back in, it was very difficult to convince it to go in. I
tried tapering the tip of the pin and spraying silicon lube on the hinge.
Still it goes in very hard. However, the elevator moves very freely with
the pin installed. Is this normal? It seems to me that this pin will have
to be taken out for painting, and possibly for maintenance down the
road...and it won't be much fun.
What are some thoughts? Thanks!
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Piano Hinge |
>tried tapering the tip of the pin and spraying silicon lube on the hinge.
>Still it goes in very hard. However, the elevator moves very freely with
>the pin installed. Is this normal? It seems to me that this pin will have
>to be taken out for painting, and possibly for maintenance down the
>road...and it won't be much fun.
>
>What are some thoughts? Thanks!
Greg,
I remember when working on my elevator / stablizer that the piano pin wasn't
the easiest to install when everything was attached. Elevator moves just
fine though. I mentally thought it would be a pain to take out and all, but
wasn't going to worry about it. Just make sure that the elevator is free
moving and that you don't have un-necessary pressure / friction areas.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ 601HDS
Working on Outboard Speed Wings - http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Piano Hinge |
When installing the hinge on stab and elevator I realized that there
was sure to be some strain in places because my (scratch built)
parts (mostly the elevator skin) were not quite as straight as I
would have liked. I used the Mk 1 eyeball and tape method to get
the hinge halves as straight as possible before drilling. On hinge
pin insertion I had a problem at one point and eased two or three
rivet holes oval with a rat-tailed file to let the hinge move out
slightly. This solved the problem. The hinge pivots reasonably
smoothly.
James Tannock
Nottingham
England
601HD outer wings done from kit
Tail group done from plans
Building rear fuselage from plans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bernie: email problems? |
Darryl West wrote:
>
>
> Bernie,
>
> I tried to send both drawings to you earlier today and got the following
> email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for some reason.
> I sent another message without the attachments this time: same result.
> Is the address correct?
>
> The original message was received at Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:04:12 GMT
> from slip129-37-162-72.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.162.72]
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 550 ... Host unknown (Error 281)
>
> Darryl
>
> and got the
> following email error notice saying that it could not deliver it for
> some
> reason. I sent another message without the attachments this time: same
> result.
> ----- The
> Host
Bernie;
I too have experienced this when trying to contact you directly. could you please
confirm you
correct e-mail address.
Thanks,
Grant Corriveau
gfcorriv(at)total.net
601hds50%
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
Looks like I may have to replace all 180 rivets in the stab skeleton!!! The
enjoyment factor of this project just went into the toilet.
What is the best size drill to use for removing A5's without enlarging the
existing hole?
Thanks,
Bill Morelli (depressed)
>>
Bill - am sorry about your misfortune. So far in my project, I have only had
one bad rivet (it popped too soon and the ball was just barely expanded).
When I remove an A5 rivet, I drill out the head using #20 drill (same size as
you would for A5's). Once the head spins off, I stop drilling. If I can
reach the ball, I use a pair of pliers to carefully twist off the ball. Using
this method, I have never deformed the hole. If I am not able to reach the
ball, I drill it out using a smaller drill (#30) and then gently tap it out
with a hammer and punch. Again, I've never deformed the hole with this
method. I hope this helps.
Take a break, take your wife out to dinner and to a movie. Later, you'll get
over it and be back at the project with a relaxed frame of mind. It works for
me...
Dick (601-HDS, just installed the lower extrusions under the forward fuselage
- what a job!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
<<
I did not discover this until the airplane was complete, but it was a fairly
easy fix. I drilled/punched out all the rivets attaching the deformed 120
degree angle cross-piece to the baggage shelf and then added a 3/4" x 3/4" x
1/8" (I think) extruded aluminum angle across the width of the cockpit below
the shelf and match-drilled the empty holes to suit. This was all riveted
together so the original (deformed) piece was pulled flat by the new angle
which is not visible with the seats installed.
Darryl >>
Thanks, Darryl, for this piece of information. I, too, noticed that it would
be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back
channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until
then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear
upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the
front part of the shelf nicely.
Will keep your suggestion in mind when I complete the fuselage. Again, Thanx.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars |
<<
>I recall also a construction hint from Chris Heintz in an old issue of the
>Zenair news about reducing oil canning on the fuselage, and that is to use
>016 gussets on the L-angles where they join the top skins. Can look up the
>issue number if you want - just let me know. I haven't put on the top rear
>fuselage skins yet, but I do have the .016 gussets in place.
>
>Dick (601-HDS)
+++ Please do, I'd like to read in more detail about this. Fred
>>
Hello Fred:
The issue with the article is #99 (March/April 1997).
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
Has anyone or everyone used the template for aligning the elevator horns
shown on page T-28 of the elevator manual?
I made the template but if I use it, it will line up my upper horn so that
it hangs over the hinge on one end and falls short of the center channel at
the other end!!
Regards,
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
working elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote:
I, too, noticed that it would
> be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back
> channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until
> then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear
> upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the
> front part of the shelf nicely.
>
Trust me, it's only stiff enough if you never push hard on it or sit on it. (ask
me how I know) The addition of the 1/8 angle is easy to do and really should
be
part of the plans. If you put it in, you'll never know how much it helps. If
you
don't, I can just about guarantee you'll wish you had.
James Neely,
Captain,
Essex Air Force I -currently down for repairs due to oil pressure problem 8-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dzus Fasteners |
Bill,
I glued 1/2" wide strips of .025 aluminum on the inside of the fiberglass
tips to provide the backup. It was alot easier than gluing washers!!
Paul Perry
601 HDTD
(Just got a Holley carb for my Suba'...cant wait to hear it run!)
| How do you put backups on the stab fiberglass wingtip
| rivets when the backs
| of the rivets are not accessible?
|
| Bill Morelli
| HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 3-View Color Scheme Drawings |
<< I have (2) Bitmap drawings for use with any picture editor >>
Unable to e-mail direct. Please send the drawings of the HDS when you have
the chance. Thanks
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Piano Hinge |
Greg,
On those occasions when we have to pull the pin out of a continous hinge, on
reinstall, we point the tip and clamp the other end to a drill motor. In as
much as the pin is aluminum, you will probably need an extra set of hands to
support the pin during insertion.
As for the silicon, be sure and use a good silicon cleaner on the surface
before painting, or you will have a bunch of fisheyes looking back at you!!
Cliff Martin #6-3694
Still in a holding pattern
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)forbin.com> |
Thanks for all of your input in this area. I figured-out my problem today
while talking with a coworker. I clecoed the hinge to the elevator before
inserting the pin. The clecoes must have been creating a slight amount of
misalignment because after I removed most of them, the pin slid in readily,
and i had no problem re-clecoing the hinge with the pin installed.
Tail is almost done! yippie!!
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Horn |
>Has anyone or everyone used the template for aligning the elevator horns
>shown on page T-28 of the elevator manual?
>
>I made the template but if I use it, it will line up my upper horn so that
>it hangs over the hinge on one end and falls short of the center channel at
>the other end!!
>
+++ Bill,
If you are refering to the fact that the top elevator horn will be forward
of the hinge line and the lower one will be behind the hinge line... that is
correct, because that will put these two horns aligned and aproximately
equal distance each to the lower control stick pivot point, which is
considerably BELOW the level of the elevator and horizontal stabalizer. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Bockius <elrond(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
> RLucka(at)aol.com wrote:
> I, too, noticed that it would
>
> > be easy to deform the baggage shelf. I have not yet installed the seat back
> > channels and won't know for sure how strong the baggage shelf will be until
> > then. I did install two L-angles between the corner stiffener and the rear
> > upright channel (as specified in the drawings) and they seem to stiffen the
> > front part of the shelf nicely.
For what it's worth I used a 1/16" x 3/4" x 3/4" 6061-T6 alum angle stiffener
purchased from the local Ace hardware store and it has proven strong enough (and
half
the weight!).
-Bruce
601-HD 90% done
Bruce Bockius
elrond(at)europa.com
Hillsboro, OR, USA
http://www.europa.com/~elrond
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
To those who were anxious, my compass is an Airpath. Weather a bit
broken today with scattered showers so went up to 6000 above it and stooged
round for an hour or two. Have concluded it is impossible to do compass
turns and I have spent about $400 on getting it checked, rebalanced, swung
etc etc.
Doing rate 1 turns it either stays locked in one position, eg E, for
most of the turn and then goes wild, or else runs ahead. It can go off in a
wild lurch and do a 360 deg turn. However, if you time the turns, eg, for
a moderate turn, count 10 sec for 90deg, 20 sec for 180 deg, 40 sec for 360
deg, and roll out after the time has lapsed, it settles down quite quickly.
Or keep a check on the sun. But no matter how slowly it is almost
impossible do a turn on compass only. Yet it is quite possible on a C152 or
172 using compass only???? Don't understand this. The airpath does not
stay horizontal but banks with the plane so that when banking to the south
the needle is parallel to the line of magnetic dip and when banking north
is a right angles to it so has virtually no torque moment at all, but then
neither does any other compass.
Will anybody flying some other machine try a few compass turns? Where
is Peter Chapman, he ought to have a good explanation?
After 160hrs the 912 is running very smoothly, May be partly due to
recent change to Sae 0-30 synthetic oil, poss also realignment of prop as
well as is now run in, but almost total lack of vibration in cruise.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSSTCLARK(at)aol.com |
I am now installing the rear zee on the o/b wings . When I clamped the rear
zee top flange to the top flange of the rear rib the web of the rear zee did
not lay flat against the rear rib flange. It looked to me that the angle of
the rear zee bend was way off. the drawings call for 100 degree bend my rear
ribs are at 100 degrees found my rear zee to be at 106 degrees. If i use
them as is my top skin will not lay flat. I do not have the tools to bend them
to 100 . Any one have any suggestions?
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rear zee angle |
> I am now installing the rear zee on the o/b wings . When I clamped the rear
>zee top flange to the top flange of the rear rib the web of the rear zee did
>not lay flat against the rear rib flange. It looked to me that the angle of
>the rear zee bend was way off. the drawings call for 100 degree bend my rear
>ribs are at 100 degrees found my rear zee to be at 106 degrees. If i use
>them as is my top skin will not lay flat. I do not have the tools to bend them
>to 100 . Any one have any suggestions?
>
>Russ
++++ Russ, Mine were off too. You will find that almost all of your bent
pieces will vary from the ends compared to the center of the piece, an
inherant problem with the "braking process" I told. Very early on I
purchased one of the hand seamers (part #TP44-0, page 138 of Wicks 98
catalog), and I couldn't be without it. Not that all these pieces need to
be perfect, because many of them that are "close but not quite on" will be
pulled into the requred shape when you apply clecos and pull rivets, but you
will be able to sort of work your way along the "L's" and other parts and
give them a little help coming on into the correct angle needed. Plus,
there will be some small parts that you will need to fabricate that you'll
need to be bent some way or other. Have a safe 4th! Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Archive Search - New Feature! |
Listers,
I've added another new output feature to the Archive Search Engine. There
are now 3 ways to return hit data. These include:
2 Frame, Indexed (NEW):
This output option will split the browser window into
2 frames. The upper frame will contain the usual search
engine controls. The lower frame will contain an index
listing of all matching subject lines.
The first time a subject line is clicked upon, a new
browser window will be opened and the message text displayed.
Subsequent subject line clicks will return message text in
the same new output broswer window.
3 Frame, Indexed:
This output option will split the browser window into
3 frames. The upper frame will contain the usual search
engine controls. The middle frame will contain an index
listing of all matching subject lines.
When subject lines in the middle frame are clicked upon, the
corresponding message text will be displayed in the lower
frame.
All Msgs, No Indexes:
This output option will split the browser window into
2 framess. The lower frame will contain all of the matching
messages.
If the subject line one any one of the matching messages
is clicked upon, a new browser window will be opened and
that particular message displayed for easy printing or
saving.
Don't forget that the size ratio between the frames can be user-adjusted by
simply click and draging on the frame border!
The Search Engine URL is: http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html
Give it a try and let me know what you think.
Have Fun,
Matt Dralle
RV and Zenith List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Nicholas' address and fax attempt |
Nicholas,
Last week (?) I sent a fax re. a problem with my leading edge spar "L"
angles. You had problems connecting to my fax/computer.
Sorry to cause you problems! Fax/computer software is handy for sending
but not so much for receiving.
Could by please try again at the following number:
514 620-3981
Could you also send me your e-mail address again. Thanks.
Thanks again
Grant Corriveau
gfcorriv(at)total.net
601hds50%
#6-2220
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
| Subject: | Trim tab installation |
Hate to appear ignorant, but...
How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is
scant. In particular...
1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator?
2) Is the control horn go up or down?
3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires?
Thanks!
601HDS/Stratus Subaru/Rudder done (thanks to the workshop)
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab installation |
>Hate to appear ignorant, but...
>How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is
>scant. In particular...
>1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator?
>2) Is the control horn go up or down?
>3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires?
>
>Thanks!
>601HDS/Stratus Subaru/Rudder done (thanks to the workshop)
John,
There are a couple good pictures of the elevator trim tab servo location and
the associated horn on my website. There located in the Photo Gallery
section @ http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
601HDS - Working on the outboard speed wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Trim tab installation |
<< How is the trim tab installed? Documentation in the Zenith literature is
scant. In particular...
1) Is the servo installed on the outside of the elevator?>>
It is inside the upper skin with an inspection plate on the lower surface
<< 2) Is the control horn go up or down?>>
Down
<< 3) What is the best location/method for exiting wires? >>
I ran my wiring through the elevator, into the horizontal stabilizer and into
the fuselage after it was built. I don't suggest this. Wire the servo before
closing the skin. Someone here recently mentioned a method of wiring where
the wires run on top of the surfaces and are hidden by the fiberglass "shoe".
In any event, if you care to test the servo before the elevator is buttoned
up, the battery from a 9 volt cordless drill works fine although a bit slow.
Connected to the two white wires, it will allow you to run the servo to it's
extremes. Be careful when riveting or drilling the servo, as I understand it
is quite fragile. I drilled mine out for # 6 hardware because I was afraid to
squeeze rivets into the plastic. BTW, the MAC G5 stick grip makes a nice
addition if you are adding the roll trim also. Enjoy.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Listers,
I know this is a sore subject for some, but I need some help. A local builder
is using an NSI engine in his Zodiac and the workmanship is absolutely
outstanding. Also, he only has the nicest things to say about the company.
All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do
good work.
My feelings of negativity are further enhanced by the fact that I can't seem
to find NSI on my own. I know all I have to do is ask my friend, but tonight
I would do a web search and I have been unable to locate anything.
Can anyone out there provide a phone number and a contact at NSI. I would
really like to talk to them. My friend says they are past most of their
trouble and are caught up on back orders. But I am a little confused and
don't know what to believe.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Campbell <usav8r(at)gate.net> |
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I know this is a sore subject for some, but I need some help. A local builder
> is using an NSI engine in his Zodiac and the workmanship is absolutely
> outstanding. Also, he only has the nicest things to say about the company.
> All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do
> good work.
That sums it up only partially... there are a number of complaints involving the
prop and reduction units they produce as well.
> My feelings of negativity are further enhanced by the fact that I can't seem
> to find NSI on my own. I know all I have to do is ask my friend, but tonight
> I would do a web search and I have been unable to locate anything.
They've kept a low profile since they started having problems and a number of
magazines will not accept their ads until they pay past-due bills.
> Can anyone out there provide a phone number and a contact at NSI. I would
> really like to talk to them. My friend says they are past most of their
> trouble and are caught up on back orders. But I am a little confused and
> don't know what to believe.
They're listed in the phone book... but good luck getting a hold of anyone...
unless you have money to spend. They will, apparently talk to new customers but
a
number of folks indicate that the communication is curtailed dramatically the
minute they have your money and you have any kind of complaint.As to current
deliveries... That is not what we understand... we have heard from a number of
people that are still owed product. A story on this mess, written by one of this
company's victims is on the schedule for our next issue.
--
Jim Campbell, Publisher, US Aviator
Copyright 1998, All Rights Reserved
http://www.av8r.net
http://www.kindredspirit.com
http://www.sportplane.com
"To sin by silence when they should protest,
makes cowards of men." -Abraham Lincoln
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Zenith Aircraft Company" <info(at)zenithair.com> |
| Subject: | Re: zenith-list-request |
Sorry, we don't run the zenith-list email list... to unsubscribe go to
www.matronics.com or email "zenith-list-request(at)matronics.com" and put the word
Please contact us should you require any additional information.
Regards,
Zenith Aircraft Company
info(at)zenithair.com
http://www.zenithair.com
(573) 581-9000 (Mon-Fri, 8-5 Central)
(573) 581-0011 Fax
Write us at:
Zenith Aircraft Company
Mexico Memorial Airport, PO Box 650
Mexico, Missouri 65265-0650 USA
Zenair: Quality Light Aircraft Since 1974
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
I continued investigation of lose A5 rivets I had previously reported where
the pulling mechanism that snaps off and stays with the rivet has some play
in it. I have only seen this on A5 rivets.
I spoke to Nicholas at ZAC and he decided to send me new rivets. I just
received the new shipment of A5 rivets from ZAC. The phenomenon is still
there with the new rivets?
I contacted a fellow builder, Bruce Bokius, to have him try the following:
Pull some new rivets and check some that are already installed by taking a
tool that will fit in the front hole of the A5 rivet such as an awl or
small drill bit. With this tool, gently push from the front through the
hole against the snapped off piece and then push on the back (ball) with
your finger. Pushing gently back and forth see if any movement is felt.
Well, Bruce did find the movement also. You have to go and look for it!!!
Bruce found that it seemed to depend on the thickness of the material that
was riveted.
If anyone else would care to check some rivets with this method and let me
know if you also find this movement, I would like to pass this along to
ZAC. I had been told by a couple of sources that these rivets are water
tight. I think not!!
Any help would be appreciated. Though this is in no way a structural
problem, it slightly annoys me that the rivets (like in the wing) may leak
water.
Regards,
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote:
> All I have ever read on this about NSI is purely negative except that they do
> good work.
The best designed and built engine in the world will do you no good at
all if you send money and never receive it. I recommend looking into
Stratus. Nothing but good reputation so far.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
Bill Morelli wrote:
> If anyone else would care to check some rivets with this method and let me
> know if you also find this movement, I would like to pass this along to
> ZAC. I had been told by a couple of sources that these rivets are water
> tight. I think not!!
>
> Any help would be appreciated. Though this is in no way a structural
> problem, it slightly annoys me that the rivets (like in the wing) may leak
> water.
Bill,
You have to ask yourself a few questions here:
a How often will you fly in rain? In 60 hours I have done it once, just to see
how the vis was affected
(not much, but then again it wasn't raining very hard either)
b Aren't you going to put the drains in? (you won't pass final inspection if
you don't)
c How much water will the rivets leak, even parked out in a storm..'specially
if you paint it?
BTW, mine don't leak, then again, I didn't check to see if they're loose
either, also I have never had
reason to worry about it
d Do you trust the design and the factory advice? If not, you've got the wrong
plane.
It's my understanding that the loads on these rivets were calculated without the
steel mandrels in. Any strength they add is strictly "baksheesh".
You will never finish your project, or enjoy it if you let stuff like this hold
you up for long....hmmmm, of course some really enjoy getting worked up and
chasing this stuff down. If so, enjoy, don't let clowns like me rain on your
parade.
Regards,
James Neely,
Captain, Essex Air Force I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
>If so, enjoy, don't let clowns like me rain on your
>parade.
>
>Regards,
>James Neely,
>Captain, Essex Air Force I
James,
The only reason I got into this rivet thing in the first place is that
Flypass (the Canadian Zodiac Dealer where I purchased my kit) and Nicholas
at ZAC both said that none of the rivets should be lose?
I and they were concerned that I had either some bad rivets or bad puller
or whatever. It was ZAC's idea to try new rivets.
If lose is normal, I don't have a problem with that. Until Bruce checked
some of his, It looked like it was only happening to me.
By the way, it has not slowed me down at all, I'm building away as quick as
I can. The building is actually quite enjoyable.
Thanks,
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 problem |
A friend with 200 hours on his 912 has spent months trying to resolve a
problem. Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm.
Opening the thottle, everything goes well until approximately 3500rpm where
it begins to stumble and rpms drop off until the throttle is opened enough
to "jump" above 4000 rpm when normal response resumes on up to the top
end. Carb adjustment and balance is where he has spent the most effort
without effect. Any suggestions? Thanks
Tim Cotter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 problem |
<< Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm. >>
I don't know a darn thing about Rotax engines or Bing carbs, but if I ran into
this on a customer's car, I would first identify the offending system. Put a
timing light on each plug wire and run it up. Ruling out an ignition problem,
it sounds like a carburetor jet problem. Good luck
George
________________________________________________________________________________
> James Neely,
> Captain,
> Essex Air Force I -currently down for repairs due to oil pressure
> problem 8-)
>
James... I am curious about what problems you are having with
oil pressure? If I remember correctly, you are running a Subaru. I am
running the Stratus version of the Subaru and have not been real happy
with the oil pressure I get once the engine comes up to temp in cruise.
Any info. will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim Weston
CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Baggage floor |
Weston, Jim wrote:
> James... I am curious about what problems you are having with
> oil pressure? If I remember correctly, you are running a Subaru. I am
> running the Stratus version of the Subaru and have not been real happy
> with the oil pressure I get once the engine comes up to temp in cruise.
> Any info. will be appreciated.
>
The guy who rebuilt the engine didn't install the clamp that holds in the oil
pickup tube, (of course, that's MY fault, occording to him....well we'll see how
much he charges to fix it). Anyway, for reasons I won't go into here, I was
convinced that the pressure gauge was faulty and flew it for 75 minutes w/ zero
pressure. No temp problems, engine ran fine, etc. Is being rebuilt now, and I
have learned a few lessons from the experience.
As to your problem. I would talk to Reiner about it, and trust what he says.
My
information is that the engines don't maintain high pressure readiings once they
get going....normally drop to 15 - 20 lb at cruise and that this is fiine. In
fact I have heard that if you are getting any reading at all above, say 10lb, all
is well.
Again, talk to Reiner. He will give you the straight dope. He has no reason to
allow you to wreck your engine. Also he has an excellent reputation.
I have learned from experience that you can drive yourself nuts, runnig around
listening to every Tom, Dick, and Harry, (me included).
I hope this is of some use
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Westridge" <westridge(at)cconnect.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
Hi fellow builders, I'm in need of advice and assistance about
ordering materials. Over two months ago I ordered my fuselage metal
from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (sheet / bar / angle / some misc
tube material) EAST and have yet to get any confirmed status of
intent to fill the order. Every time I call to check, about every
third week, the customer service folks tell me they'll check and get
back. NO CALL so i call again and get IT'S NOT IN STOCK
NOW. So I check again and they say, IT"S HERE BUT I DON"T UNDERSTAND
WHY YOUR ORDER IS NOT FILLED. Then I get OH WE'RE OUT OF STOCK AGAIN.
Some one please tell me there is a better place to get my order
filled. I tried Air Parts inc. but they did not have the items I
wanted (type and spec metal).
ANY IDEAS??????
Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
Thanks, Dave W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
>Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
Dave,
My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific
factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently
only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards.
The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's
standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets
meet their rated specs.
Even though it may be cheaper to buy the rivets elsewhere, I wouldn't risk
it.
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
>ANY IDEAS??????
>
>Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
Dave,
I agree with Don, I would buy the rivets from ZAC.
As far as your other problem, I have a Wick's Aircraft Supply Catalog and
it seems to have everything you may need. I have only purchased zinc
chromate from them that they promply shipped.
If you are interested in contacting them to see what they have available
here is the info:
Phone 1-800-221-9425 (orders)
e-mail aircraft(at)wicks.com
internet address www.wicks.com/aircraft
Good Luck
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
Working Elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:pitot-static system |
I am trying to find the best location to install my pitot tube in my
HDS wings with leading edge fuel tanks,any suggestions??
Ken Lennox Salisbury, MD
Tail group completed, skinning the O/B wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
Don Honabach wrote:
>
> >Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
>
> Dave,
>
> My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific
> factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently
> only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards.
> The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's
> standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets
> meet their rated specs.
>
This is Zenair's story. I was told by a supplier in Mississauga that they
supplied Zenair in Midland. I ordered the same kind from this supplier for 1/2
the Zenair price. (this makes sense when you realize that in retail, you should
realize 100% profit on and item if you are to survive) A nervous engineer in
the
Essex Zenair Force had the rivets tested. They met or exceeded Zenair's
requirement as stated in one of the newletters. Beware of snake oil and secret
ingredients, but do what makes you feel safe. I have no problems with my
rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret that
their pricing often borders on outrageous.
IMHO anyway
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 problem |
Tim:
I have over 100 hours on my Rotax 912UL and so far, no problems.
There is an advisory out regarding isolated cases of seizure due to faulty
rocker arms on engines from serial # 4,005.196 to 4,400.408 only (reference
Kitplanes Magazine / Engine Beat article June/98 issue).
I have heard that you must be careful how you run the fuel vent / overflow
tubes from the 2 carbs. The stock engine comes with a 4" long clear plastic
tube that is pinched between the lower carb body and the retaining clip for
the lower carb body. This should not be left as-is (pinched and too short).
You should run about a 8" long vent hose away from the muffler area, but NOT
outside the bottom of the cowling (or even close to the cowling exit). This
line is also a pressure equalizer for the carb, and I have heard that the
airflow past the cowling exit has caused a vacuum effect that shut down fuel
flow as takeoff airspeed was reached. I have never noticed any fuel coming
from these hoses, but if you are worried, just run the short vent tubes into
a much larger diameter tube with a gap for air to equalize nearby the carb.
The larger tube could then be run down and outside.
Other possibilities: If the propeller blades are pitched too steep, or not
equally to each other, or not mass-balanced, the vibration could cause a
rough run over a specific rpm range.
Maybe too obvious: are both chokes fully disengaged (mine runs very rough
with the chokes on) ?
Good luck and please let us know how it is solved.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 5:23 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 problem
>
>A friend with 200 hours on his 912 has spent months trying to resolve a
>problem. Basically, it does not want to run between 3500 and 4000 rpm.
>Opening the thottle, everything goes well until approximately 3500rpm where
>it begins to stumble and rpms drop off until the throttle is opened enough
>to "jump" above 4000 rpm when normal response resumes on up to the top
>end. Carb adjustment and balance is where he has spent the most effort
>without effect. Any suggestions? Thanks
>
>Tim Cotter
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
>
>
>
>Don Honabach wrote:
>
>>
>> >Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> My understanding is that Zenith buys the A4 and A5 rivets from a specific
>> factory of some company (maybe Textron). They do this because apparently
>> only one of the manufacturing locations makes the rivets to their standards.
>> The other locations while they manufacture the rivets don't do to Zenith's
>> standard. Also, I believe Zenith does spot checks to make sure the rivets
>> meet their rated specs.
>>
>
>This is Zenair's story. I was told by a supplier in Mississauga that they
>supplied Zenair in Midland. I ordered the same kind from this supplier for 1/2
>the Zenair price. (this makes sense when you realize that in retail, you should
>realize 100% profit on and item if you are to survive) A nervous engineer
in the
>Essex Zenair Force had the rivets tested. They met or exceeded Zenair's
>requirement as stated in one of the newletters. Beware of snake oil and
secret
>ingredients, but do what makes you feel safe. I have no problems with my
>rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret that
>their pricing often borders on outrageous.
>IMHO anyway
>James
I agree with James , I got my Avex rivets from a local fastener place . The
5,000 1/8" Avex rivets cost me $112.50 as where Zenith wanted $400.00 !!!
....Tom Decker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
>rivetsThis is in no way a slap at Zenair's integrity, but it is no secret
that
>their pricing often borders on outrageous.
>IMHO anyway
>James
James,
Just didn't think it would be that easy to find out who was supplying
Zenith. In short, didn't think the effort, time, money equation would work
out. Also, since this type of project is total unfamiliar to me, it is nice
not having to worry about whether or not this is the right rivet, part, etc.
As a side issue, I deal all day with salespersons that would just assume lie
as tell the truth. It may be the industry that I'm in, but products are
re-labeled and counterfited all the time. So, I don't tend to be very
trustworthy when buying.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ 601HDS
Working on outboard speed wings w/ LE Fuel Tanks
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | HELP - I'm frustrated |
Dave...I live near Aircraft Spruce East and stop by to pick up
parts from time to time. Anything that they are out of stock on seems
to have to come thru the California store. They really can get mixed up
some times. Anyway, I have found that if you ask for Sandy, she is very
helpful and seems to know the ropes. If you explain your ongoing
problem, I bet she can get it straightened out.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru
McDonough, Ga.
>
>
> Hi fellow builders, I'm in need of advice and assistance about
> ordering materials. Over two months ago I ordered my fuselage metal
> from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (sheet / bar / angle / some misc
> tube material) EAST and have yet to get any confirmed status of
> intent to fill the order. Every time I call to check, about every
> third week, the customer service folks tell me they'll check and get
> back. NO CALL so i call again and get IT'S NOT IN STOCK
> NOW. So I check again and they say, IT"S HERE BUT I DON"T UNDERSTAND
> WHY YOUR ORDER IS NOT FILLED. Then I get OH WE'RE OUT OF STOCK AGAIN.
>
> Some one please tell me there is a better place to get my order
> filled. I tried Air Parts inc. but they did not have the items I
> wanted (type and spec metal).
>
> ANY IDEAS??????
>
> Where is the best place to get A4 and A5 rivets????
>
> Thanks, Dave W
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com> |
| Subject: | "L" Angle Bending |
I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are
added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there
a clever way to do this that I am not seeing? The only idea I can come up
with is to make plywood forms to match the ribs with reliefs in them to
allow the material that's being bent somewhere to go.
Also, thanks to all that responded about my elevator hinge problem. The
tail is complete, and I'm very satisfied with it.
Greg F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "L" Angle Bending |
Greg;
Easy! Get a pair of fluting pliers. You can use these to make a crimp in the
"vertical" part of the stiffening "L" angle (the face that sticks out off the
inside of the skin).
When you've got the wing framed in, cut each stiffener to length. You can
do this by holding it roughly in position where it'll go and cut it about 10mm
shorter than the space from the rear zee to the spar.
Now hold the L-angle up to the edge of the next-larger rear rib and use your
fluting pliers to make crimps in the same locations as on the rib you are
comparing against.
The resulting L-angles will actually be slightly "flatter" than you need. This
is ok, the flutes will allow the stiffener to flex to the right concavity.
Good luck chief;
JKB
> I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are
> added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there
> a clever way to do this that I am not seeing?
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
In a message dated 7/8/98 2:16:21 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
tdecker(at)spectra.net writes:
<< I agree with James , I got my Avex rivets from a local fastener place . The
5,000 1/8" Avex rivets cost me $112.50 as where Zenith wanted $400.00 !!!
....Tom Decker >>
Here's wishy washy Steve's opinion.... I agree with both Don and Tom. But I
am more in Don's boat. Tom is very technically proficient so he knows what he
is buying. Don and I are first timers in this home building thing and we are
just learing about the hows and the whys. It is worth it for me on this
project to pay Zenairs price. Next time maybe, when I know a little more I'll
be a little more willing to find my own materials. Tom has helped with
numerous issues and the most valuable resource out there is you fellow
builders. I hope over the years I can gain the knowledge to pass it along
like Tom. But in the mean time I'm stuck paying the prices subjected to a
novice.
But please folks, being a business owner, Their prices are not "outrageous".
I'd be willing to bet they pay more in liability insurance than many of us
make in a year. They have to keep inventory on their shelves instead of
keeping the money in their bank or pockets. And let's not even talk about
payroll taxes, health insurance, PAYROLL!!!!, employee incentives, rent,
utilities, tools, materials, advertising, tevchnical support, research and
development, etc, etc, etc...... Not only that, they deserve to make a
"decent" living for themselves and their families.
I think sometimes they charge too much for stuff too, but then I remember what
it's like to run my business and I am just glad I won't have to be paying 15
to 20K for a 30 year old 152 with some huge number of hours on the engine and
airframe. Last time I checked Cessna's web page, a 172 is going for $168,000
for a full IFR package. Now that is Outrageous!!
Steve
My 2 cents (for what it's worth)
6-3737 tail surfaces complete, working on outboard wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "L" Angle Bending |
In a message dated 7/8/98 7:02:00 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com writes:
<< Is there
a clever way to do this that I am not seeing >>
Hi Greg,
Go ahead and rivet the top skin and then turn the wing over and support the z
as stated in the draft manual fom Zenith. Then lay your staright L Angles on
the pre drilled rivet line and you will see the obvious curve that needs to be
formed. Use a crimping tool and from the center out gently bend the L angle
to form the curve of the wing. Very easy to do, and works like a charm.
Steve
If you'd ever like to call e-mail me back at slf998(at)aol.com and I'll send out
my number.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "L" Angle Bending |
Greg:
I used the homemade crimping tool they show in the construction manual.
Put your angle beside a rib and crimp appropriately. The nice thing about
this is that the crimps are on the side of the angle so you don't have to
worry about avoiding crimps when riveting.
Dave Payson
Working toward final inspection on Subaru powered CH601 HD.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
Regarding compass problem, a friend pointed out that a gentle turn in a 601
rotating 180 deg in 20 sec is in fact three times as fast as a rate one
turn in a Cessna. So the centrifugal effect will be much enhanced.
If it stops ever raining will try a real 1 min per 180deg turn and see what
happens.
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
>
>In a message dated 7/8/98 2:16:21 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>tdecker(at)spectra.net writes:
>
>I think sometimes they charge too much for stuff too, but then I remember
what
>it's like to run my business and I am just glad I won't have to be paying 15
>to 20K for a 30 year old 152 with some huge number of hours on the engine and
>airframe. Last time I checked Cessna's web page, a 172 is going for $168,000
>for a full IFR package. Now that is Outrageous!!
>
>Steve
>My 2 cents (for what it's worth)
>6-3737 tail surfaces complete, working on outboard wings.
There's an Ultralight, the Laron 1/2 Ton, that a lot of people really liked
when it came out. There were orders. The actions of Laron after the money
was received seem to be pretty unpleasant. One guy on the UL list was
saying he doesn't have all the parts or all the instructions. Never expects
to, either.
If you look at prices, the 13k for an airframe kit seems reasonable.
There's a lot more in that than parts. For the 170k of a new Cessna, you
get full certification, so even the complete Zen product is 15 to 20% of
that cost, plus some non trival labor. With the hours on the Zodiacs, what
level of 'certification' does this represent? You want to be pretty
hard-nosed.
Knowing what a certificated a/c costs, even used (I own one), I don't want
something (experimental, HB) really new and untested. I don't want a
company that is cutting a lot of corners. I want someone with finances that
suggest continued success, even in a downturn. Zenith seems like a 5 star
company, to me, but I have limited knowledge.
You can, for what it is worth, buy a Sportplane certificated airplane for
around 40k. Flightstar has one, the Gt-500 was certificated, one of the
Rans is supposed to be, by now.
Does seem like the regs and the liability laws, plus the limited UL
category, create strange situations in the US.
George Sears
PS, no 30 year old 152's, they started in about '77.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "L" Angle Bending |
<<
I am beginning construction of the wings. The L angle stiffeners that are
added to the skins need to be bent to match the airfoil's shape. Is there
a clever way to do this that I am not seeing? The only idea I can come up
with is to make plywood forms to match the ribs with reliefs in them to
allow the material that's being bent somewhere to go. >>
Greg:
There are two ways to make a tool that allows you to bend one flange of an L-
angle to cause the other bend to produce a curve. First, Chris Heintz
described a tool you can make (involved welding) to do the bending - see the
tool section of the manual. Second, I made a tool using an old pair of long-
nose pliers with cable insulators attached to the nose of the pliers (to
prevent scratching the L-angle. You can also wrap electrical tape instead of
using the cable insulators). Additionally, I fabricated two thick pieces of
metal and two bolts to hold the nose of the pliers so they won't bend as I use
the tool.
I determined where to make the bend and then use a twisting action - first one
way then another a few times - to create the bend. You can get the idea from
the tool section of the manual.
With my tool, I have made good bends with no scratches and was able to make
the L-angles shapen the same as the nearest larger rib.
I hope this helps.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD) |
| Subject: | Center wing nose skin rivet spacing |
Hi all: Am preparing center wing nose skin. When I follow the
specified measurements from the "trailing edge"of the nose skin, for
the rivet spacing as noted in the manual, it appears that at least
three of these measurements will result in a rivet hole landing on a
nose rib crimp on the top surface of the rib flange. By my
calculations there are 13 rivets to be placed on top. Has anyone
worked out a better spacing for these rivets so they don't land on a
rib flange crimp? Is there any harm in altering these measurements
slightly in order to have the rivets land on all the flat parts of
the rib flange ? How did you do yours? I am assuming that the
trailing edges start at the back edge of the angle extrusion of the
spar. Any help/suggestions appreciated. Doug P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Center wing nose skin rivet spacing |
DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD wrote:
Has anyoneworked out a better spacing for these rivets so they don't land on a
> rib flange crimp?
Is there anyone who hasn't? 8-)
> Is there any harm in altering these measurements
> slightly in order to have the rivets land on all the flat parts of
> the rib flange ?
No harm whatever, in fact, that's what the manual says to do.Go for it, the hard
part
is getting the holes lined up between the skin and the rib. some of us made a
separate template for each rib....lotsa fun. If you can get all the holes in
a
straight line down the wing, "you're a better man than I, Gunga Din".
I hope this helps,
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
George Sears wrote:
>
>
> If you look at prices, the 13k for an airframe kit seems reasonable.
> There's a lot more in that than parts.
Oh, oh, here I go again, getting on my soap box! 8-)When comparing kits, look
at
what the kit suppliers give you for your money. Again,, I love the 601, but look
at what you get for 15K from the RV guys, (as one example), versus what comes in
the Zenair kit, and I'm not talking about how complete they are, so much as the
cost of the materials, (.016, vs .032), the level of manufacture, the fittings,
(the turnbuckles are a good example). I'm not knocking the quality or completenes
of the zenair kits. The aircraft is a marvel of simplicity and economy of
construction. I'm just saying that, compared to what it costs them and other
companies to produce a kit, they charge a lot. On top of that, I admire the fact
that they make it so easy for a plans-builder to construct their product. They
could have refused to sell plans and made it difficult to get factory support
> For the 170k of a new Cessna, you
> get full certification, so even the complete Zen product is 15 to 20% of
> that cost, plus some non trival labor.
Plus, the Cessna is a 4 place machine, considerably faster, with more $ in
instruments than I have in my whole plane. The extra cost in raw materials alone
is considerable.
> Knowing what a certificated a/c costs, even used (I own one), I don't want
> something (experimental, HB) really new and untested. I don't want a
> company that is cutting a lot of corners. I want someone with finances that
> suggest continued success, even in a downturn. Zenith seems like a 5 star
> company, to me, but I have limited knowledge.
Yup, at their prices, they ain't starving, but this is just good business. I'm
not knocking them. I just call a spade a spade. Love the company and it's
product...not as happy with their marketing, but you can't argue w/ success!
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 |
I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of
rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant
hefty stick pressure is required for level flight.
The manual suggests a procedure for trim (adjust
aileron control rod length), but I can't see how it
could work.
Has anyone else had this problem? Can a really
bad out of trim condition be corrected by the
procedure in the manual?
Another problem is cg at the aft limit, but I know how
to fix that - add weight up front, or loose weight myself!
tia,
Glen.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
this is only a test.....ignore.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 |
>
> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of
> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant
> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight.
Glen...Is the wing heavy at all speeds, or only at cruise speed? Could
need some change in the engine side thrust. Also, does it want to roll
left or right? I am betting on left. Mine wanted to roll left, so I
installed aileron tabs for hands off flight. Now when I carry a
passenger it wants to roll right. Good sales point for electric aileron
trim.
> The manual suggests a procedure for trim (adjust
> aileron control rod length), but I can't see how it
> could work.
>
It won't work. I tried and it looks like this is one of the few points
where Chris is wrong. All that will happen is that the ailerons will
spring back to center, offsetting the stick. Both can be run in or out
to affect the amount of lift for pitch trim. But no help with roll. If
the plane is a tri-gear with wheel pants, make sure that the nose wheel
is centered when the rudder is centered, that big wheel pant will work
like a rudder in the front. Mine was off a small amount at first and
this caused some of my problem.
Good Luck,
Jim Weston
CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru, now have 45 hours
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Disabling HTML in Outlook |
Matt:
I ran across a solution to the problem which has been tested and found
to work.
You're solution (yesterday) works for Outlook Express, but not for
Outlook.
In Outlook you can specify send formats for individual e-mail addresses;
so start by setting up an address in your address book. Within that
address (properties) you can set send options and specify MIME and plain
text format. Like I said above I tested this today and it worked.
We also looked at Outlook Express and we think that the
Tools-Options-Send solution you supplied yesterday will change the send
format for all outgoing messages...bad if you wanted HTML enabled for
whatever reasons. Just as in Outlook we found that if you look in the
Address book you can change send format for just that one address.
I send this to you to hopefully make it easier to help the next guy who
has this problem.
Tony Gunn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
In a message dated 7/8/98 7:49:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
gsears(at)netutah.com writes:
<< no 30 year old 152's, they started in about '77 >>
We were talking ideas not semantics. Be that as it may, I recently flew a
C-150 vintage 1966. What a pleasure to fly. NOT. I think most of us are
building for the joy of building as well as the cost savings. I can't
imagine anyone building solely to save money. If that is the case, then their
time is of no value what-so-ever. I know that is not the case with me. I
know I could by a nice used plane for 40 or 50K but that is not the point. I
do know I can not afford a new plane. I could possibly swing the plane, but
then the insurance, the annuals, the operating expense. Too much. It really
is a shame.
Anyway, happy building. I skinned the bottom right wing last night and
everything lined up perfect. Gotta love it!!!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Swaging the control cables |
> Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I
> just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good
> tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through
> and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls
> chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection?
>
> Tony Gunn, Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
In a message dated 7/9/98 6:14:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time, asp(at)jet2.net
writes:
<< Plus, the Cessna is a 4 place machine, considerably faster, with more $ in
instruments than I have in my whole plane. >>
OK, I flew a C-172 last week with 3 guys in it averaging 200lbs. We went to a
field at 4,500 elevation on a 90 degree day. I got, at best 300fpm climb out
of the plane. The best cruise speed I ever saw was 119mph on my GPS and that
was on my descent into Phoenix. The C-172 is not a four airplane unless you
truly enjoy flying on the edge of your seat, or unless 2 of your 4 passengers
are children or lightweight men or women. Taking off from the airport I used
75% of the runway to take off and after I got out of ground effect the plane
was so mushy it scared the beejeezus out of me. While the instrument panel
did have a lot of stuff on it I can't remember the last time I used an ADF and
so long as my GPS doesn't die on me, as a VFR pilot, VOR's are for the birds.
The FBO I rent from does have a 1997 C-172 that does get better performance
than the one referenced above but even that is still not up to the advertised
numbers for the Zodiac. If the Zodiac winds up performing as poorly as the
older 172's I will be sorely disapointed.
Anyway, Happy flying everyone!! Keep the dirty side down.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy) |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
Tony Gunn wrote:
>
>
> > Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I
> > just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good
> > tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through
> > and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls
> > chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection?
> >
> > Tony Gunn, Houston
Tony,
Pounding the Nicos with a hammer is definitely not the procedure for
swaging cables. Your FAA guy will most likely see that right away, and
he'll squawk them. Also, I personally would not take a chance at flying
the aircraft with hammered swages.
I'm sure you're not looking forward to redoing your control cables, but
you're going to have to redo them. I use the big $200 swaging pliers,
but you can get a much cheaper tool that uses clamps. When using the
clamp type swaging, you'll have to use a swage guage to make sure the
nico was compressed properly.
Also, you'll need to inspect your cables very closely after you remove
the hammered nicos. It will be very easy to damage the cable, so be
very careful. Even one tiny broken strand is grounds for getting new
cables.
Philippe Leroy
601 HDS, JPX power
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 |
Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of
> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant
> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight.
>
Sounds like you might have a twist built into a wing, or both wings. This is not
as disastrous as it sounds, though it reqires courage and care to fix.First,
discuss the situation with Art Mitchell at Flypass. He has dealt with exactly
the
same problem.
Here is how I would approach the problem, partly as I remember Art's description,
and partly how I would deal with it myself.
Remove the wings and establish what is twisted and how much. Use a level table
and whatever method you wish to check.
If a wing is twisted, I would drill out the rivets holding the top rear skin.
This would allow me to reset the wing panel so that it is straight, using blocks
to get everything to 0 deg. It should have no twist at all, so both spars should
be level, or at least exactly the same angle, lengthwise.
Once I was satisfied that the twist was removed completely, I would re-rivet the
skin, using the same holes where possible, drilling new holes, properly spaced
for
the old ones.
If neither panel is twisted, you might have a twist in the centre section, which
would be a much more difficult situation, though the factory might have some
ideas.
This gives you some idea of what is involved. It may sound daunting, but it's
not
really that difficult to remove a wing twist
Always check with the factory before you attempt any repairs of this nature to
get
their advice/blessing.
I hope this is of some help
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
Tony Gunn wrote:
>
> > Not realizing I needed a Nicopress tool for the control cable swages I
> > just pounded hell out of them with a hammer till they held a good
> > tight grip on the cables. I've tried pulling the cables back through
> > and they're still holding. Does anybody know if I have a snow balls
> > chance in hell of getting this passed in FAA inspection?
> >
Not a snowball's chance in hell, Tony.....at least I hope not for your sake.
Bite the bullet
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
In a message dated 7/9/98 9:02:23 PM, asp(at)jet2.net writes:
<>
OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool and is
this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project?
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
What is a Nicopress tool and is
>this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project?
>
>
>Steve
++++ Well, yes, ... sorta. The tool is used to swage the fittings around
the cable ends that attach to the control stick and control surfaces such as
the elevator, rudder, etc. The good news is that you can usually borrow one
from someone is your local EAA chapter, all you have to do is just ask. If
your chapter has an EAA Technical Advisor, he will probably have one and be
willing to come out and show you how to use it properly.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
<< OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool and
is
this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the project?
>>
Steve,
I got the cheap version from Aircraft Spruce for about $30. It looks like the
clamp die from a flaring tool and works with a wrench to crimp the cable ends.
You need 3 crimps at each sleeve. Leave a little cable sticking out of the
end of the sleeve and wrap with tape while crimping so it doesn't slide out.
I found an easy way to cut the cable is to use a sharp chisel with a heavy
hammer and a hefty chunk of steel for an anvil. Makes a nice clean cut with
one blow. At the risk of sounding like a salesman for EAA, they have the
books by Tony Bingelis which do an excellent job of explaining everything to
do with homebuilding. Like having an expert right next door. Enjoy
George... HDS forever at 80% complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: Swaging the control cables |
> OK, Virgin builder question of the day...... What is a Nicopress tool
and is
> this one of the special tools zenith says I don't need to finish the
project?
>
Yup!
It's a tool you will use for a couple of hours and then not need again
until you need to replace a control cable. Aircraft Spruce, and others I
am sure, sell a tool for about $15 which I used and does a good job. It's
just slower because the compression is from tightening nuts rather than
just long arms & leverage from the expensive tool. An alternative is to
hit up someone else who has already bought one or the local EAA or RAA club
may have a loaner (I'm sure you are a member already, if not I'd join as
the contacts will be invaluable). One of the aircraft construction books
is also as good buy as it will have lots of tips on things like the proper
way to install a nicopress fitting. Sportplane Construction Techniques by
Tony Bingelis is a good one in my opinion.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 |
>> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of
>> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant
>> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight.
>>
+++ Before you remove the wings, I'd like to suggest a simple method to
determin just how much twist there is from tip to tip in the wing. This way
you will be able to actually see the problem and know how much total error
there is INCLUDING any possible twist in the center section. Stand off the
end of one of the wing tips, and rest one end of a long bubble level on the
high point of the wing skin, which will be right on top of the spar. Now,
with the level going from front of the wing (on the spar),to the back (over
the rear "Z"), raise or lower the end of the level (over the Z) until the
bubble shows level. Have someone else measure how far the level is above
the rear zee. Double check it and write it down. Now do the same thing on
the other wing tip and see how much difference you measure between the wing
tips. What ever difference between them is the total amount of twist
between the spar and rear zee, end to end. Be sure NOT to move the
aircraft, or lean on it during the measurements, and be sure to take these
measurements the same position inward from each wing tip. If you only show
a small difference, try checking to see that one of the ailerons doesn't
hang lower than the other one because of "bend memory" in the aileron hinge
material. Other than that, the plane will also want to roll (from torque) if
there isn't a few degrees of engine offset in the engine mount as defined in
the building manual. Some planes fly really crummy if they don't have
enough side thrust. Hope this helps. If any of this is unclear, rattle
my cage. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD) |
| Subject: | Nicopress swedging tool |
If any of the builders are around a marine rigger or a West Marine
Store, they all have nicopress swaging tools for the cable sleeves
and probably would do it for a nominal fee or for free. Just another
thought. In no case whatsoever should you ever consider hammer
swedging the control cables. I would start over and replace
everything including the cables as they are undoubtedly fractured.
Sorry. Please for your own safety don't consider anything less than
that. IMHO. Doug.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Out of rig wings |
Glen:
I wonder if it might be possible to correct the warped wing(s) by replacing
the small splice/nut-plates on the inside of both the nose skin and rear zee
(between inboard & outboard wing sections) with ones that have the bolt hole
in a slightly different position, offset vertically (one up, the other
down). This would in effect change the angle of incidence of the entire
outboard wing a bit, and if done oppositely to both wings, could have the
desired result of negating the out-of-trim condition mentioned. The large
main spar splice plates would not need any changes at all (the wing should
pivot slightly about the centre spar with the smaller splice plates
removed). I doubt the visual difference would be very noticable with the
splice cover panels installed.
Be careful.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98
>
>
>
>Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I recently purchased a finished 601HD, and it is out of
>> rig. In spite of trim tabs on both ailerons a constant
>> hefty stick pressure is required for level flight.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator
trim provided by Zenith?
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
At the last workshop (highly recommended, by the way, especially for
neophytes like myself), Nicholas described a neat way to run wires through
the airplane:
1. Drill a 1/8" hole near the edge of a lightening hole.
2. Run a cable tie through this hole and the outside of the lightening
hole.
3. Inside this cable tie, run another cable tie which will hold the wire
run. That way, the wires are held tightly and touch nothing but plastic.
Neat, huh?
601HDS w/Stratus Subaru. Tail feathers almost complete.
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/08/98 |
Fred Hulen wrote:
> >>
>
> +++ Before you remove the wings, I'd like to suggest a simple method to
> determin just how much twist there is from tip to tip in the wing. This way
> you will be able to actually see the problem and know how much total error
> there is INCLUDING any possible twist in the center section.
DUH!! Why didn't I think of that?
Geez, I hate it when I come up with the hard way to approach a problem. That's
what makes an exchange of ideas like these lists so great. You've just saved
this guy 5 hours of work, just to check the situation. The wings still MIGHT have
to removed, but this is a helluva lot simpler to start the process.
James, (red faced in Essex), Neely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com> |
| Subject: | to SLF998(at)aol.com |
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953553(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com>
Steve:
I cringed as I read your post regarding your flight in a C172 with 3
200 lb. men out of a 4500' MSL airport on a 90 degree day.
While I don't have my E6B with me, I can
only guess at the density altitude you were experiencing that day.
As a CFI and C172 owner, I must give you some advice :) , please get with
an instructor and review a/c performance. Depending on the surronding
terrain, this could have been a tragic flight. Good luck with your
building.
Roger Kilby
www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2360
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
I find I rarely need even the elevator trim (except maybe when taking a
passenger, somewhat). I definitely don't need aileron trim. I have 601 HD
with nose tank only.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: John Karnes <karnes(at)zoomnet.net>
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 4:50 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron trim
>
>How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator
>trim provided by Zenith?
>
>John Karnes
>karnes(at)zoomnet.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | billn(at)ppiteam.com (PPITEAM) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
>How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator
>trim provided by Zenith?
>
>John Karnes
>karnes(at)zoomnet.net
John,
I put the aileron trim on my plane. If you rig for solo flight, then you
may get a right turn tendency with a passenger. It was/is my opinion that
the aileron trim will make give the adjustment necessary between solo and
passenger flights.
601HDS - Running control cables
Bill Nichelson
Bellefontaine, Oh
bn2(at)bright.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
Thanks for the advice, and olease believe me it is noted. I never would have
done it but the runway was over 10,000 ft long and I was flying with an
instrument rated pilot with over 1,000 hours who had flown into and out of
that field hundreds of times.
I will admit that we didn't do any desity altitude calculations but we figured
in our heads density altitudde to be around 8,500 to 9,500 feet. Is it
completely unreasonable to expect an airplane designed to carry 4 adults to be
able to perform at a level high enough to carry only three adults under "non-
extreme" conditions? I thinks so, and that is my entire point. The C172 is
not a true 4 person aircraft. The Zodiac, while small, is a true 2 person
aircraft. It would have been able to handle that same situation with no
trouble. (At least that's what I have been told)
You Wrote:
<>
Please understand, I am fully aware of the laws of physics and I would not
have made the flight I discussed had I not had the other more experienced
piliot on board with me. Even though he was not functioning in a "CFI" mode
his experience was very helpful. I personally just think it is just short of
corporate negligence for Cessna to say that the 172 is a 4 person aircraft.
Sure it is, if all 4 people weigh 150lbs and you are flying on a standard day
at sea level but how often does that happen...................
The 172 is a wonderful 2 person aircraft, marginal 3 person, and maybe 4 small
people. Just my humble opinion. But as interesting aside, after learing about
density altitudes in ground school and then practical experience in flight
training, I realized that in the 152 I was training in, me 195lbs, my
instructor 205lbs, and a full load of fuel we were overweight. This never
really dawned on me as my CFI never made an issue of it. But when I did my
check ride and my FAA person made me do a weight and balance problem for us to
fly that day, we were overwieght with full fuel. The FAA guy weighed 145lbs
and he instructed me to include 45lbs of baggage!!!
So all of those training days I was overweight. I "cringe" to think what
would have happened had those sorties been done out of the higher elevation.
Is the 152 truly a 2 person aircraft? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
> >How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator
> >trim provided by Zenith?
> >
> >John Karnes
Would suggest laying the wiring in there and wait till you have flown
before putting in aileron trim. There are days when I feel the right wing
is dropping but then usuallly find I have crossed controls again and have a
bit of right rudder on. I don't notice any difference whether with
passenger or full or empty wing tanks, surprisingly.
We had a discussion some time ago about the over sensitive elevator
trim. With a light fuel load I find it does not need touching in circuit.
With full tanks and or passenger she tends to be nose up on climb out and
nose down on glide. When at full load or overloaded, the elevator trim is
definitely not too sensitive, it is much needed. So we have to put up with
a very senstive elevator trim when on minimal load, because we need it when
at MAUW.
One cause of dropping wings I think is the setting of the outboard wing
extension trailing edge. does it line up with the rest of the wing? It is
easy to get a bit of droop built in. Set right with the inboard ailerons
lined up with the inboard fillets and the outboard ends up a 1/8th high
because of washout, the outboard tip of aileron should be 1/8 in. above
trailing edge of wing tip extension. The wing tip has a lot of leverage and
will act as a fixed aileron.
Was flying in a jumbo recently and noticed a rect. bit of inboard wing
that moved with the ailerons so said to the hostess, "What in hell is that
thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back
a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why?
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
> How many of you out there recommend aileron trim similar to the elevator
> trim provided by Zenith?
Aileron trim is available as an option from Zenair. It is similar to the
elevator trim, the trim servo sits in the aileron and operates a trim tab
hinged to the aft side of the aileron. I had become tired of flying a
Piper Warrior which was in trim for only a short while when the fuel load
in the wing tanks counterbalanced my weight so I installed the aileron trim
in my HDS. I have only flown by myself at the moment but I can easily get
the plane trimed for straight & level flight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
Bernie Gunn wrote:
> thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back
> a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why?
> Bernie G.
Bernie,
I think all the big Boeings are about the same in the aileron department (ie. 727
upward). The 727 has dual ailerons to account for the dramatic difference in roll
control required with full flaps at landing speed (lots!) vs. cruise speed.
At cruise only that little inboard aileron, along with the flight spoiler panels,
control
roll. As the flaps are extended, the outboard aileron begins to factor in until
it is
also fully active.
I think most aircraft with a large speed differential from Vs to Vmo need some
kind of
'progressive' controls so as not to get things overstressed at speed, but still
get the
job done for landing.
Grant Corriveau
(always wondered what one could do with flaperons on the 601)
601hds50%
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org |
For Sale;
Zenair 601HD, Subaru powered with Reductions of Canada redrive, 0 time,
it has been signed off by the FAA for 40 hour flight testing. Basic
instruments, No radios. asking 18,000. If you have more questions
inquire direct to my Email then if still interested I will give you my
phone number. Need a quick sale, to many hangar rentals. May consider
some kind of trade-in for partial payment. Located in Kansas City
kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
<<
We were talking ideas not semantics. Be that as it may, I recently flew a
C-150 vintage 1966. What a pleasure to fly. NOT. I think most of us are
building for the joy of building as well as the cost savings. I can't
imagine anyone building solely to save money. If that is the case, then
their
time is of no value what-so-ever. I know that is not the case with me. I
know I could by a nice used plane for 40 or 50K but that is not the point. I
do know I can not afford a new plane. I could possibly swing the plane, but
then the insurance, the annuals, the operating expense. Too much. It really
is a shame.
>>
Just gotta put in my 2-cents' worth.
Money is not the reason I am building my Zodiac. I already own another plane
- a
Rockwell Darter (1966). Good plane. The main reason I am building is that I
want control over how I am going to maintain my plane. Yes, there are
standards, but I want to pay someone to maintain my plane when I have a strong
desire to do it myself. With the Darter, I can't do much legal engine work on
it, even if I know how, plus I can't do any structural repair on it as needed,
unless I pay an IA to check my work and give the sign-off (most IA's here
won't do that, cuz there's not much money to be made). So, rather than be
stuck with an old plane I can't repair and maintain myself, I decided to
build.
For me, that's one heck of a good reason.
Dick (601-HDS, building the aileron control system before riveting the rear
fuselage to the center wing).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Out of rig wings |
<<
I wonder if it might be possible to correct the warped wing(s) by replacing
the small splice/nut-plates on the inside of both the nose skin and rear zee
(between inboard & outboard wing sections) with ones that have the bolt hole
in a slightly different position, offset vertically (one up, the other
down). This would in effect change the angle of incidence of the entire
outboard wing a bit, and if done oppositely to both wings, could have the
desired result of negating the out-of-trim condition mentioned. The large
main spar splice plates would not need any changes at all (the wing should
pivot slightly about the centre spar with the smaller splice plates
removed). I doubt the visual difference would be very noticable with the
splice cover panels installed.
Be careful.
Darryl >>
Hmmm... Interesting. It may be possible, but the thing that comes to mind is
that one wing may stall first before the other, and that one wing will have
more lift relative to the other (higher angle of attack) so you may have to
compensate with more rudder. Ugh!
Just a thought...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
<<
1. Drill a 1/8" hole near the edge of a lightening hole.
2. Run a cable tie through this hole and the outside of the lightening
hole.
3. Inside this cable tie, run another cable tie which will hold the wire
run. That way, the wires are held tightly and touch nothing but plastic.
Neat, huh?
601HDS w/Stratus Subaru. Tail feathers almost complete.
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net >>
Yup! That is neat.
Speaking of wires, when I completed my HDS wings, I installed wires for the
O/B strobes and nav lights. I insulated the wires with a loom tube. The
entire "cable" is routed through the lightening holes. Some people told me
the vibration could cause the loom tubes resting on the edges of the
lightening holes and the L-angle skin stiffeners to eventually be cut through.
My EAA Tech Counselor said that it might be a good idea to support the "cable"
somehow (he built an RV and he used the same set-up as I did, without any
support, and he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside his
wings). Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
Thanks!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
. The
> entire "cable" is routed through the lightening holes. Some people told
me
> the vibration could cause the loom tubes resting on the edges of the
> lightening holes and the L-angle skin stiffeners to eventually be cut
through.
> My EAA Tech Counselor said that it might be a good idea to support the
"cable"
> somehow (he built an RV and he used the same set-up as I did, without any
> support, and he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside
his
> wings).
It would worry me too. I either ran wiring along behind the main spar,
or, as around wing fuel tank, drilled a 3/8 hole in rib, slid in a 1 1/2
inch length of tygon tubing, gunked it in with silicone, and slipped wiring
in through that. In the triangluar hole behind main spar also gunked in
pieces of tubing.
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com> |
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953554(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com>
Steve,
I agree with the idea that if it has the seats, they should be usable, but
on most a/c that is not the case. They are designed to be used under
certain conditions only. The SA-227 Metroliner I flew for Northwest Airlink
had 19 passenger seats but, depending on the fuel load, density altitude,
etc., they may not always be usable. This is true of any aircraft.
As for the 152, the aircraft is limited and I'm sorry the CFI didn't have
the
sense to not operate it overweight. I always used the 172 for heavier
people (myself included), or put the student with a smaller CFI.
I didn't mean any offense by the suggestion that you get with a CFI.
CFI's are not God and are prone to make mistakes, like taking 600lbs
of people in a 172 at a 8500-9500' density altitude.
Anyhow, fly safe and I'm sure these 601's will not disappoint any of us
in performance (or cost of operation).
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote:
> he said he worries sometimes about his wires flapping inside his
> wings). Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dick (601-HDS)
Wires don't flap in wings ! But lighting holes cut a wire like a piece of butter
because of vibrations.
Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib.
Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last
rib with 2 ties.
Claude.
701-912 getting dusty since march 97
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
sc.gte.com>
>
>Steve,
>
>I agree with the idea that if it has the seats, they should be usable, but
>on most a/c that is not the case. They are designed to be used under
>certain conditions only. The SA-227 Metroliner I flew for Northwest Airlink
>had 19 passenger seats but, depending on the fuel load, density altitude,
>etc., they may not always be usable. This is true of any aircraft.
>As for the 152, the aircraft is limited and I'm sorry the CFI didn't have
>the
>sense to not operate it overweight. I always used the 172 for heavier
>people (myself included), or put the student with a smaller CFI.
>I didn't mean any offense by the suggestion that you get with a CFI.
>CFI's are not God and are prone to make mistakes, like taking 600lbs
>of people in a 172 at a 8500-9500' density altitude.
>Anyhow, fly safe and I'm sure these 601's will not disappoint any of us
>in performance (or cost of operation).
>
>Roger
>
There was an accident close to here, two months ago, involving a CFI and a
150, overloaded, stall spin. Two fatalities including his wife, not a
student. Certificated airplanes have operating limits, and they are as
optimistic as the companies can make them.
The Lancair started as a homebuilt, and is now, I think, also a
certificated airplane. They've made quite a few changes. Zenith makes a
certificated airplane, the Zenith 2000, two place, and it weighs enough to
suffer the same low performance at high density altitudes. There has to be
some sort of trade-off here, right?
When the 172 was designed, how many people lived in high elevation cities,
like Denver, Salt Lake City, or Albuquerque? Bigger engines don't give you
much of an increase in cruise speed (drag increases exponentially with
velocity) so the 'right' engine is more than climb performance.
I just hope this argument isn't "Well, if they put four seats in there I
can fill them any time I want." This just isn't a good attitude for any
pilot to have, whether a Zodiac Flyer or a Cessna jock.
The limitation really boils down to having to 1) take off early in the
morning, or 2) carry minimal fuel until you reach a lower altitude airport.
I own a 150. With my hours, it is the perfect airplane. I do feel myself
outgrowing it, little by little. I fly it alone, sometimes with half fuel.
The performance is quite acceptable, especially during the times when the
thermals aren't wrenching me around, which is until about 10;30 AM, in summer.
Happy landings,
George Sears
George Sears
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 7/13/98 3:37:13 PM, gsears(at)netutah.com writes:
<<"Well, if they put four seats in there I can fill them any time I want.">>
Honestly, I think that should be true, but I do understand how it is
impossible to be true. But, this isn't the point. I understand performance
and conditions. I just don't feel 4,500 feet, 90 deg. F, and 3, 200lb men is
even close to an extreme condition. I think a 4 seat airplane should be able
to handle that without trouble. Out here in the great Southwest, those can be
average to below average conditions. (Except maybe for the size of the guys)
We can hit 90degrees in November!!!
<>
A Lot. And anyway, you are forgetting several hundred smaller high elevation
cities with remote locations that depend on general aviation for everything
from transportation to crop dusting. And what about the low elevation cities
that can experience temperatures in the 110-120's? 5 years ago in Phoenix
they closed Sky Harbor Airport (7th busiest in nation) because it reached 122
degrees (I can't even imagine how hot it must have been for the guys working
the ramp that day)and the big jets didn't have enough runway. I guess that
really only reinforces the performance point, but that was truly an extreme
condition!
I just don't understand how aircraft which have to pass such rigourous safety
standard checks can be designed to such poor performance standards under such
mild conditions.
Enough of this though, it is what is. I just hope that the HDS performs as
stated. All I want is an aircraft that is a true 2 seater. 2 men and a
couple sets of golf clubs. Is that too much to ask? It is in a 152, in
Arizona, 6 month's out of the year, flying to a huge portion of this beautiful
but mountainous state.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy) |
| Subject: | 747 inboard aileron |
> Was flying in a jumbo recently and noticed a rect. bit of inboard wing
> that moved with the ailerons so said to the hostess, "What in hell is that
> thing, it looks like an inboard aileron, go ask the Captain." She came back
> a bit later and said, "He says it is the inboard aileron!" I wonder why?
> Bernie G.
>
>
Bernie,
I'd be willing to bet you were flying on a Boeing 747. I took a trip to
the JPX factory in France last December and we flew on an Air France
747, and I noticed that inboard aileron. I noticed that the pilots were
only using it during cruise flight. On take-off and landing, I could
definitely see that they were using both inboard and the long outboard
ailerons. I figured that when flying at Mach .8 the outboard ailerons
are probably too effective, and just a slight deflection would cause a
huge bank.
Any Boeing experts on this list?
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.ca> |
I am currently completing the firewall on my 601 HD TD, and I have two
questions. 1) What is the lower 0.016" firewall fairing supposed to do? 2) I
am trying to use tension/return springs on my rudder peddles. When I use
springs that give the recommended 30-40 lb cable tension, I am deforming the
firewall ! I have added some re-inforcements, but this tension sure seems
excessive. Any suggestions?
Paul Perry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
Perry_Paul wrote:
>
> I am currently completing the firewall on my 601 HD TD, and I have two
> questions. 1) What is the lower 0.016" firewall fairing supposed to do? 2) I
> am trying to use tension/return springs on my rudder peddles. When I use
> springs that give the recommended 30-40 lb cable tension, I am deforming the
> firewall ! I have added some re-inforcements, but this tension sure seems
> excessive. Any suggestions?
Paul,
You will provide all the cable tension you need w/ your feet. all your springs
have to do is keep the pedals under some tension so they don't flop over. Not
much tension needed, just fairly long stretch. I used 3/8" or 1/2"(not sure, I'd
have to measure, but it's not crucial ) spring from Home Hardware. It comes as
about 6 or 8" long. Just cut what you need. (4 or 5"? I forget). Come on over
and chack mine out. 8-)
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org |
Zenith 601HD 0 time, signed off by FAA for 40 hour test period, basic
instruments, No radios, Subaru with Reductions of Canada redrive and
motor mount. Needs cosmetic finish work such as interior finishing etc.
Yellow with black accent color. for more info contact
kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org asking 18K might consider some sort of tradein
for partial payment. Located in Gardner Kansas airport. I have three
aircraft and one has to go
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net> |
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
Steve:
Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the
601HDS?
Idea: A 4' long, large cardboard tube (with end cap) slid inside the wing
baggage locker through the outboard ribs. The club shafts could stick inside
the tube, while the heads could hang inside the locker, maybe with a Velcro
strap to hold them from moving. This assumes no wing tanks. The empty bags
might fit in the rear baggage shelf?
BTW, I think that the Zodiac would make a really cool golf cart. Just land
on a long, straight fairway, and then taxi back to the tee-off. 8-)
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com>
Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: to SLF998(at)aol.com
>
>
>Enough of this though, it is what is. I just hope that the HDS performs as
>stated. All I want is an aircraft that is a true 2 seater. 2 men and a
>couple sets of golf clubs. Is that too much to ask? It is in a 152, in
>Arizona, 6 month's out of the year, flying to a huge portion of this
beautiful
>but mountainous state.
>
>Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: 747 inboard aileron |
Don't know about all Boeing aircraft, but I have a lot of hours in the KC-135 (military
707). The
outboard ailerons are connected to the flaps. At high speeds they would be much
too effective.
The inboards, coupled to the spoilers (spoilers provide much of the roll) are sufficient.
At
approach and landing speeds the outboards are needed to augment the rolling forces.
Flap position
controls whether or not the outboards are functional.
As an interesting side note, the KC-135 is true fly by wire (Cables) aircraft.
The rudder is the
only flight control that is hydraulicly assisted. I.e. when the yoke is turned
to initiate a
turn, cables move a trim tab on the aileron. The resultant aerodynamic forces
move the whole
aileron and initiate the turn. Nice system, and good to have when things are going
bad.
Randy Vranish
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
<< Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the
601HDS? >>
I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for
the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple of
those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips.
I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf
gear is in my bag.
Anyway, I like the idea of landing on the first fairway and then taxiing
around the course for the golf cart. I think the greenskeepers might have a
problem with it though.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: Embarassed to ask... |
This is a reply for proper drill size for an A-6 rivet. A #10 drill bit is the
recommended size.
A 3/16 is too small and 13/64 is too large. The recommended sizes for rivets are:
Rivet Dia Drill size
1/16 #51
3/32 #40
1/8 #30
5/32 #21
3/16 #10
Hope this helps.
Someone was asking about designations. i.e. MS2470 AD 4-7
MS20470 or old designation AN470 is the head type that is used in the spars-the
universal head.
Ms20426 or AN 426 would be a countersunk head, etc. The next letter or letters
are the material
code. A is a plain rivet - made of 1100 and not heat treated-shouldn't be used
for structural
use. AD is dimpled and is heat treated 2117 alloy - stronger. the 4 is the diameter
measured in
32nds of an inch. So an A-6 pop rivet has a diameter of 6/32nds or 3/16ths. The
7 is the length
of a hard rivet in 1/16ths of an inch.
If you don't have it, I highly recommend the Standard Aircraft Handbook. I think
it is a must
purchase. Use mine all the time. Aero is the publisher. I think Aircraft Spruce
sells it. My
beable to order through your local book store.
Good flying,
Randy Vranish
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
On 07/14/98 09:58:40 you wrote:
>
>
>
><< Where will you put two men and two golf bags full of clubs inside the
>601HDS? >>
>
>I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for
>the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple of
>those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips.
>I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf
>gear is in my bag.
>
>Anyway, I like the idea of landing on the first fairway and then taxiing
>around the course for the golf cart. I think the greenskeepers might have a
>problem with it though.
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
Reference the baggage locker,
When I owned a Mooney I had a ski tube istalled. It was a canvas bag that was
attached to
various points along the rear of the fuselage. The bag prevented the skis from
hitting the
sides of the fuselage. The bag went a considerable distance into the normally
unused portion of
the fuselage. 195 skis only protuded 1 and 1/2 foot or so into the baggage compartment.
Slick
idea, need to watch the C.G. My only concern would be that the bulk heads might
not be strong
enough attach points.
Randy V.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
Steve & Darryl,
On my first inspection visit to Mexico to check out the 601, I explained to
Nicholas the importance of getting golf clubs in the plane. As opposed to
stuffing them in the wing, I got permission to cut a small half round hole in
the rear bulkhead of the storage compartment,suitably reinforced of course, to
get the necessary extra couple of inches to fit the woods. More or less an
extension tunnel,won't have to be more than 6" I believe. Club heads would be
to the front,directly behind the seats for less weight impact on the CG.
Cliff Martin #6-3694
Still in a holding pattern.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>On my first inspection visit to Mexico to check out the 601, I explained to
>Nicholas the importance of getting golf clubs in the plane. As opposed to
>stuffing them in the wing, I got permission to cut a small half round hole in
>the rear bulkhead of the storage compartment,suitably reinforced of course, to
>get the necessary extra couple of inches to fit the woods. More or less an
>extension tunnel,won't have to be more than 6" I believe. Club heads would be
>to the front,directly behind the seats for less weight impact on the CG.
>
>Cliff Martin #6-3694
+++++ You golfers are "sumthin else".. what will you guys who are Pole-Vault
enthusiast do, eh?
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | List Operational Update... |
Hello Listers,
I've made a number of improvments and upgrades to the List servers in the
last couple of weeks and thought I'd pass on the news...
- Battery Backup Power Added -
I've added two new APC 1.4 KVA Uninterruptable Power Supply systems (UPS) to
the email server and to the web server. Each UPS has enough battery power
to run the respective system and all of the associated networking gear for
over 3 hours! At the 3 hour mark, each system will automatically be shutdown
gracefully and the the UPS put into standby mode for automatic system
restart when the AC power is restored. I've extensivly tested both systems
and everything works great.
With three AC power outages here in less than a month, it seemed like a
good time to buy some insurance. The web server incountered disk errors
during all 3 outages and wouldn't reboot without manual disk checks and
restart. Both the email and web systems should be quite robust now, with
availability approching near 100%!
- Additional Memory Added to Web Server -
I have added an additional 256Mb of system RAM to the web server machine
for a total of 384Mb! Most all web access and archive searches are now
pulled directly from memory and overall system performance is outstanding.
The web server is running under Linux on a dual processor Pentium
Pro 200 Mhz system with a 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah system hard disk.
- More Improvments to the Archive Search Engine -
You may have noticed the new message return option added recently to the
Archive Search Engine. Message hit subjects are returned in one browser
window while the actual messages are displayed in a separate browser window.
This allows much more of the actual message to be displayed on the screen
at a time and also makes printing of each message more intutive. The original
three-frame return as well as the 'all messages' display options are also
still available.
I have been working through a number of data-dependant bugs in the search
engine and have addressed most all of the known problems. I'm still working
on the ability to return 'n' number of matches at a time and hope to
have to that fully functional this week. Currently, a maximum of 500 matches
can be returned, but this will be raised to 10,000 in 100, 200, or 500
batches soon.
The new search engine has been receiving 100-200 hits a day - a nearly 5 fold
hit increase over the previous engine - and the web server in general has been
seeing 3000-4000 hits a day (!), predominately from the RV and Zenith List
pages.
Best Regards - Party on...
Matt Dralle
RV and Zenith List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
<< You golfers are "sumthin else".. what will you guys who are Pole-Vault
enthusiast do, eh? >>
I believe they make a telescoping pole for the vault!!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
I'm not completely thrilled with the way these rules are written. As I
understand it you have a mechanics certificate for the airplane, the
airframe. You didn't build the engine, so you can't do the annual on the
engine. Technically.
You'll also be required to sign of on AC 20-27, which states that any
changes to the aircraft will be signed off on by the FAA (before you fly).
The FAA has the right to reinspect any change. A guy built a Long EZ,
changed the fuel system, then returned it to the original. The plane
crashed doing 500k worth of damage, and the insurance co. weaseled out
because he'd violated that condition, even though the plane was in the
original config when it crashed. See this month's Sport Aviation.
If my understanding of the airframe versus engine rule is correct, you
could do the sign-off, but it then becomes an admission you broke the
rules. If you don't sign off for the annual, then you don't have a legal
airworthiness cert. If you don't break that rule, you'll break some other.
I see the latest 'kitplane' is a Lancair 4 place pressurized speed demon
that cruises along at a mere 300 knots, comfy up to FL 250. The simple
pleasures of the homebuilder! Whee.
The guys building the simple stuff deserve a break, rules more like
Ultralights.
George Sears
>
>Just gotta put in my 2-cents' worth.
>
>Money is not the reason I am building my Zodiac. I already own another plane
>- a
>Rockwell Darter (1966). Good plane. The main reason I am building is that I
>want control over how I am going to maintain my plane. Yes, there are
>standards, but I want to pay someone to maintain my plane when I have a
strong
>desire to do it myself. With the Darter, I can't do much legal engine
work on
>it, even if I know how, plus I can't do any structural repair on it as
needed,
>unless I pay an IA to check my work and give the sign-off (most IA's here
>won't do that, cuz there's not much money to be made). So, rather than be
>stuck with an old plane I can't repair and maintain myself, I decided to
>build.
>
>For me, that's one heck of a good reason.
>
>Dick (601-HDS, building the aileron control system before riveting the rear
>fuselage to the center wing).
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to
meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2
p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent.
I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have
always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night
builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to
have still more opportunities than that.
I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there?
I will send this to Reiner Hoffman (Stratus) also, hoping to have him
join us periodically.
Tony Gunn, HDS kit 2/3 done, Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
>So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place
>I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there?
>
Tony,
I'll also be there from Thursday thru Saturday. However, everyone keeps
warning me on how big it is at Oshkosh, so I was just hoping to find the
Zenith tent. Didn't have any realistic hopes of finding fellow builders in
the masses.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ 601HDS
Working on the outboard speed wings
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Reiner's Email Address |
IRT last Oshkosh post I thought I had Reiner Hoffman's e-mail address --
I don't
Does anyone else have it?
Thanks,
Tony Gunn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>
>So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to
>meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2
>p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent.
+++ Sounds like a neat idea Tony, it would be fun to meet you and the other
guys that we all talk to on this net.
How will we know who we "builders" are in the crowd.... by that "how do I do
that" look on our faces?
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Oshkosh - How to ID other Zenith Builders |
Fred:
Sorry I couldn't reply to last post as a "reply".
I'm planning on printing up some stick-on address labels as "601
Builder" and "701 Builder" to be placed in Zenith tent for everyone to
pick up and wear.
I'll try to get Sebastien and Nick to bring them to Oshkosh so Wednesday
visitors can partake. If I have to bring them myself they won't be
available til Thursday.
Tony Gunn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh - How to ID other Zenith Builders |
>Fred:
>
>Sorry I couldn't reply to last post as a "reply".
>
>I'm planning on printing up some stick-on address labels as "601
>Builder" and "701 Builder" to be placed in Zenith tent for everyone to
>pick up and wear.
>Tony Gunn
+++++ Neat! "You're a good man Charlie Brown", I'll look to see you there.
Fred
>
________________________________________________________________________________
If any builders have any Zenith Merchandise I could embroider (I own a custom
embroidery business) your tail number or builder number under the Zenith logo.
And then anyone looking would automatically know that you are a builder and
not just a wannab
________________________________________________________________________________
and not just a wannabe. I would do this for no charge. If anyone is
interested contact me at my e-mail address and then I will get intouch with
you for more info.
Thanks
Steve Freeman
6-3737
Tail Done working on outboard wings.
If you need a reference I am the supplier to Zenith for all of their
embroidered wearables.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Reiner Will Join Us |
Reiner Hoffman (Stratus) replied that he will join us periodically at
the Zenith tent at our pre-arranged 10 and 2 times. He says they are
very busy shipping motors right now, so he probably won't be there the
whole week.
When not at the tent he will also spend some time at his Long-EZE parked
(as he calls it) on "aircraft engine" row; so you can find him there
also.
Tony Gunn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Reiner's Email Address |
m>
Tony,
Reiners e-mail is Reinerh(at)aol.com
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont
working elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | boardman(at)borg.com (Don Boardman) |
>So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place
>I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there?
Tony,
I will be at the seaplane base with my 701 amphib/912 (450 Hrs).
My arrival and departure are weather dependent but I'am planning on being
there Tuesday/Wednesday through Monday.
Don Boardman
Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NOLIES4US(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Subaru oil pressure |
My EA-81 has about 60 lbs. cold, but as it warms up it will drop to about 50 @
5000 RPM this is with an oil temp of about 235 degree F. I use Castrol Syntec
20-50.
I run an oil cooler and oil thermostat. With a remote mount oil filter, so I
have some press drop due to line loss. There is also a .060 orifice and line
supplying oil to my Ross gear box.
The oil pump has a spring loaded ball that will bypass the oil filter if it
plugs up.
I found this was opening and bypassing the filter when cold. So I opened the
pump and installed a sleeve spacer to increase the spring press.
I have temporary thermocouples installed on oil cooler and radiator.
Have found at cruise I have about 24 degrees droop across oil cooler and 14
degrees across rad.
At cruise air temp 82 I see about 210 oil temp and 195 water (with no water
thermostat.
On climbout if oil press gets less than 10 lbs/thousand engine RPM I level
out, Have read that is min. oil press for safe operation. Any comments.
Bill J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Subaru oil pressure |
>
> My EA-81 has about 60 lbs. cold, but as it warms up it will drop to
> about 50 @
> 5000 RPM this is with an oil temp of about 235 degree F. I use Castrol
> Syntec
> 20-50.
> I run an oil cooler and oil thermostat. With a remote mount oil
> filter, so I
> have some press drop due to line loss. There is also a .060 orifice
> and line
> supplying oil to my Ross gear box.
> The oil pump has a spring loaded ball that will bypass the oil filter
> if it
> plugs up.
> I found this was opening and bypassing the filter when cold. So I
> opened the
> pump and installed a sleeve spacer to increase the spring press.
> I have temporary thermocouples installed on oil cooler and radiator.
> Have found at cruise I have about 24 degrees droop across oil cooler
> and 14
> degrees across rad.
> At cruise air temp 82 I see about 210 oil temp and 195 water (with no
> water
> thermostat.
> On climbout if oil press gets less than 10 lbs/thousand engine RPM I
> level
> out, Have read that is min. oil press for safe operation. Any
> comments.
> Bill J.
>
Bill...Several comments here. First of all, I run the Stratus
Subaru (EA81) as provided by Stratus (i.e.. no oil coolers, etc.) on my
CH601HDS. As far as the Castrol Syntec oil goes, Stratus says in their
manual to never use a synthetic oil in the Subaru. I have talked with
Reiner Hoffman designer of the Stratus package and company owner, and he
indicates that the rubber seals used by Subaru in their engines react
with the synthetic oil and turn the seals rock hard.
On the oil pressure, I get about 70 lbs cold. Once warmed up on
the ground I get about 50 lbs at most any rpm. The oil temp rarely gets
over 160 F on the ground. Climb out and cruise flight are different
stories. During climbout at about 80 mph indicated the oil temp will
hold about 190 no matter what altitude I climb to. The engine temp.
(this is not true water temp since it is sensed at the rear of the
cylinder head on the right side) will slowly climb to about 200 F. Oil
pressure during climb shows about 40 lbs. Once I level out for cruise
flight at about 4800 rpm the temps and pressures slowly stabilize at
about 215 F engine temp, 190 to 200 oil temp., and 30 psi oil pressure.
I did not like only 30 psi oil pressure, so I talked a lot with Reiner
and tried several things to cool the oil, increase the pump pressure,
and improve the type of oil used. Bottom line is that changing from
Castrol GTX 20w50 to Valvoline straight 50w racing oil helped the most
(now run 35 psi in cruise). I also installed a spacer on the valve
pressure spring, as you did, this increased the regulated pressure while
the oil was cold after startup, but had no effect once the oil warmed.
Surprisingly enough, the oil pressure seems to be more affected by
engine temp. than by oil temp. After checking on the pressures that
others receive, I found that what I am seeing seems to be the norm for
these engines. A lot of people only use the pressure switch/idiot light
and don't really know what pressure they are running. A big mistake in
my book. By the way, all of these readings were in approx. 90 F (on the
ground) summertime weather in the Southeast.
Hope this helps,
Jim Weston
CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
<<
Wires don't flap in wings ! But lighting holes cut a wire like a piece of
butter
because of vibrations.
Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib.
Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last
rib with 2 ties.
Claude. >>
Wish I had done that before I closed the wings. Even my Tech Counselor has
the same worries for his RV. Gonna have to think of another way with the
wings closed.
Thanks for reply.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: to SLF998(at)aol.com |
<<
I was thinking of putting in a mod to rear baggage shelf that will allow for
the clubs to extend further back into the empanage, And then keep a couple
of
those cheap soft side golf bags in the wing lockers for those day golf trips.
I'm still trying to think this one through. Most of the weight in my golf
gear is in my bag.
>>
Don't forget - sticking things deep into the empennage adds weight back there
and you'll have a tail-heavy condition. It's best to stick 'em in the wings
via long tubes thru lightening holes, and balance 'em out in both wings. Have
fun!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP - I'm frustrated |
<<
I'm not completely thrilled with the way these rules are written. As I
understand it you have a mechanics certificate for the airplane, the
airframe. You didn't build the engine, so you can't do the annual on the
engine. Technically.
>>
Hmmm...
You have a point there about the engine. It's been over a year after I
reviewed the regs before I started building.
It's true that you may need another sign-off if you make a major adjustment to
the airframe. The only "major" alteration I can think of that I will need to
make is adding a trim for the aileron while test flying. Maybe I better do
that before completing the plane outright.
Anyone on the list have any comments about whether we builders can maintain
the engine?
Dick (time to dig up the manuals, regs, etc.)
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have
always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night
builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to
have still more opportunities than that.
I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there?
>>
No way I can make the dinner - gonna be there on Sunday with my brother. I'll
be at the Zenair booth then...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Reiner's Email Address |
<<
IRT last Oshkosh post I thought I had Reiner Hoffman's e-mail address --
I don't
Does anyone else have it?
>>
Yes, Reiner's address is:
Reinerh(at)aol.com
Am about ready to order a Soob...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
+++ Sounds like a neat idea Tony, it would be fun to meet you and the other
guys that we all talk to on this net.
How will we know who we "builders" are in the crowd.... by that "how do I do
that" look on our faces?
Fred
>>
I have an idea - let's each of us stop at the Zenair booth and buy a Zenair
hat, and then stand around wearing it. Or, even a Zenair T-shirt will do.
Can't do better than that...
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
> Why don't you drill a 9mm hole and install a grommet in each nose rib.
> Lock the wire (on itself or doing a loop) before the 1st and after the last
> rib with 2 ties.
>
> Claude. >>
>
>Wish I had done that before I closed the wings. Even my Tech Counselor has
>the same worries for his RV. Gonna have to think of another way with the
>wings closed.
>Thanks for reply.
>
>Dick (601-HDS)
+++ Dick, Food for thought.. I notice that seveal guys have been running
their wires through the triangular open area at the top and bottom of the
spar where the ribs attach. You might consider slipping some small PVC
tubing in from one end of the wing to the other and then secure it on one or
both ends with adhesive so it won't slip back out, then run your wires
through it ... presto, a nice no abrasion way to route the wires. If you
have trouble sliding it in because it won't stay straight enough, try
inserting a long stiff wire or rod in the tubing, then slide the whole thing
in place and withdraw the stiffener. Hope this helps. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
<< I have an idea - let's each of us stop at the Zenair booth and buy a Zenair
hat, >>
Buy hats!!! Buy Hats!!!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Special Thank You... |
Hi Listers,
I would like to send out a special thank you to the members below that
made a contribution to the Internet Upgrade Fund this time around.
Contribution amounts were exceptionally generous and the support has
helped a great deal.
Again, I would like to thank everyone that took the time to send or
'click' in a contribution! If you forgot to make a contribution, feel
free to surf over to the following URLs for more information how you
can support the RV and Zenith list operation:
RV-List - http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/contribution.html
Zenith-List - http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/contribution.html
Matt Dralle
RV and Zenith List Admin.
==============================================================================
Thanks again to the following members:
Brent Allen
Edward Anderson
Gary Baker
Warren Bishop
Gregory Booze
Bob Bower
Garrett Bray
Charles Brietigam
Don Champagne
Moe Colontonio
G. Corriveau
David Faile
Jeff Farrar
George Fetzer
Chris Good
Denny Harjehausen
Ken Harrill
Nick Haurplen
Wesley Hays
Randall Henderson
Michael Hilger
Brian Holman
Kevin Horton
Fred Hulen
Bruce Knoll
Charlie Kuss
Philip Lehrke
Randy Lervold
Jim Lyden
Jim MacDonald
Michael McKenna
S. Mehrhoff
Warren Moore
William Morelli
Jim Nolan
Chris Olsen
Jeff Orear
Jeff Orear
Derek Reed
Robert Rimbold
Les Rowles
Thomas Sargent
Richard Sipp
Charles Sonberg
Jerry Springer
Terrel Stern
J. Tompkins
Robert Trumpfheller
Terrence Watson
Doug Weiler
Jim Wendel
Ron Wilcox
Leslie Williams
Louis Willig
Joseph Wiza
Greg Young
Richard Zeidman
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
test +++ haven't received anything in a full day
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
>
> test +++ haven't received anything in a full day
Me neither. Must be the weekend! :o)
Carlos Sa
Montreal, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
<< +++ Dick, Food for thought.. I notice that seveal guys have been running
their wires through the triangular open area at the top and bottom of the
spar where the ribs attach. You might consider slipping some small PVC
tubing in from one end of the wing to the other and then secure it on one or
both ends with adhesive so it won't slip back out, then run your wires
through it ... presto, a nice no abrasion way to route the wires. If you
have trouble sliding it in because it won't stay straight enough, try
inserting a long stiff wire or rod in the tubing, then slide the whole thing
in place and withdraw the stiffener. Hope this helps. Fred
>>
Thanks, Fred. I had thought about that before riveting but decided against it
because the rivet balls took up so much space. In one wing, I have three sets
of wires (nav, strobe, and landing lights) and all three together will not fit
the triangular holes with those rivet balls in place.
What I could do is run one or two thin wires through a tube as you suggest on
the bottom and then another set above. The tube idea is good -- it keeps the
wires away from possible gasoline fumes (I also have wing tanks).
It looks like I will need to re-route the wires before transporting the wings
to the hangar. Thanks, again.
Dick (601-HDS, installed aileron control cables and riveted the rear fuselage
to the center wing).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires |
>What I could do is run one or two thin wires through a tube as you suggest on
>the bottom and then another set above. The tube idea is good -- it keeps the
>wires away from possible gasoline fumes (I also have wing tanks).
>Dick (601-HDS
++++ Dick, Glad the idea will help you. I took the time to drill holes and
install grommets, but after considering the idea I submitted, I may use the
same thing on my own wings because it will support the wires over a
continuous length, and as you pointed out, keep wing tank fumes away from
the wires too. Good point! Are you going to Oshkosh? Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Emergency Landing |
I was planning to give you all an update soon on the performance
measurements of my HDS but unfortunately I had a partial engine failure on
Friday so the testing is cut short for a while. The engine (NSI Subaru)
began running very rough and lost power and oil pressure. I didn't think
it was likely that it would keep running for very long and as I was only
getting 4,000 rpm I could only just maintain level flight. I was over open
farmland, actually in our local practice area, so I elected to land while I
still had some power. It's amazing how rough the fields look when you know
you are going to have to land on one of them!
I chose a relatively smooth looking field which turned out to have quite a
high hay crop on it. The field also had an uphill slope which would help
to slow the plane down quicker (the brakes really aren't much use for
anything other than taxiing). As I got close to the field I realized how
high the crop was but by that time I was committed. All went well though
and there was no damage to the plane, none to me, and not much to the crop.
Notice my order of priority.
The stability of the plane on landing was excellent. From looking at the
fresh scrapes on the gear legs the nose gear probably compressed about 5"
and one of the mains about 3". I didn't feel there was any tendency to
nose over. Naturally I had all of the up elevator on that there was.
The HDS glides like a brick so having some engine power was a real plus.
It's ironic that I was in the practice area to try some forced approaches.
My first one ended up being for real.
I was talking to the local tower during the incident so they reported to
the police, who came out and picked me up. After filling out a report and
talking to the Air Safety Officer for this area it was back to the field to
pull off the wings and get the aircraft hauled out. I was back in my
hangar by 10:00 pm the same day.
The next day I discovered that the problem was a broken push rod. That
explains the rough running and according to the tech rep from NSI he said
that it also accounts for the oil pressure loss. Apparently with the rod
out of the cam follower there is a large enough opening for the oil to flow
through that the loss of back pressure brings the oil pressure down to
almost zero. The good news is that there is still oil flow and so other
internal engine damage is unlikely from a few minutes running. On
reflection I probably still had about 3 to 5 pounds of pressure indicated
on the gauge. It sure looked like zero at the time though!
In fairness to NSI, the problem was probably caused by too large valve
clearances. I had adjusted the clearances after 5 hours of engine
operation as called for but for some reason they increased after that. It
doesn't seem likely to me that I could have been consistently wrong with
the adjustment, it's something I have done many, many times in my life, so
I guess a few more hours of operation before the adjustment would have been
better. You can be sure that I will check often for the next few operating
hours.
With regards to NSI, I have been critical of them in the past but I have
had a very positive experience with them in dealing with my overheating
problem. They are now using a larger radiator and sent me a new one on
exchange with no hesitation. I talked to them late on Thursday before the
July long weekend and the shipping lady promised to get it out before she
went home. I took delivery one week later in Canada which included time to
clear customs. Maybe they really have cleaned up their act.
More later when I'm back in the air.
Don, I have lost your e-mail address, if you send me a short note I'll
reply with some more info that I got from NSI.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Emergency Landing |
Way to go Alan!
Glad to hear you are still with us after your adventure on Friday. Sounds
like both good and bad news regarding your engine, but definitely good news
regarding your piloting skill and decision-making under a lot of pressure
with a brand-new airplane. I think we will have to call you "Cool-Hand
Newell" from now on.
BTW, has the new rad improved the cooling situation?
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Newell <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Date: Sunday, July 19, 1998 10:04 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Emergency Landing
>
>I was planning to give you all an update soon on the performance
>measurements of my HDS but unfortunately I had a partial engine failure on
>Friday so the testing is cut short for a while. The engine (NSI Subaru)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
Have any of you out there in Zenith-List Land tried out the Matronics (our
host) FuelScan LT (or DX) Fuel Flow Flowrate Indicator/ Managers ? Or any
other brand of fuel management systems? I was never crazy about the
"top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube. It is good for simplicity
but it has no visibility for the bottom half of the tank volume range (the
most important half, really). I like the concept of the FuelScan for
"real-time" updates on fuel efficiency and "time remaining until empty".
This info, compared in real-time with a GPS "time to destination" would give
a nice, warm feeling on those long legs between refueling points on
cross-country flights.
Of course, this measured fuel consumption rate may be innaccurate, and there
still is no actual tank level sensor input so the fuel remaining info is
just calculated based on the rate and time.
I was flying my 601HD last weekend on a 200 mile/ 2 hour circle tour of the
outer Perimeter of Calgary's Class C airspace (I have no transponder) and
noticed an apparently higher than usual rate of fuel consumption for the
rotax 912UL. I don't have any fuel management system, but after landing I
put 10 gallons back in instead of the normal 8 (ie. 5 gph instead of 4gph).
This is a 25% increase! Of course, the measuring technique is pretty crude.
With only 15 useable gallons available, I sure would like to get the most
out of them that I safely can.
See: http://www.matronics.com for info on the FuelScan.
Darryl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl West <rdwest(at)cadvision.com>
I was never crazy about the "top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube.
It is good for simplicity but it has no visibility for the bottom half of
the tank volume range (the most important half, really).
Darryl,
I didn't like this arrangement either, so I ran the sight tube down to the
bottom of the tank and fastened it to the interior side trim panel. After
all, the FAA reg. says the gauge must accurately display an empty tank, not
a 1/3 full condition. Cheap fix.
George
far away from fuel lines to
keep the technical councillor happy.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Outboard 601HDS Speed Wings... |
Hi Everyone,
Working on getting the outboard 601HDS speed wing together and having
trouble with the end rib. After having looked at both the plans and
downloadable instructions I can't find whether the rib's flange is supposed
to cover or be covered by the spar extrusions.
The pictures (downloadable instructions) indicate that the rib flange is
trimmed so you don't have to worry about how the rib's flange and spar
extrusions interact.
Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.
Don Honabach
601HDS - S/N 6-3770
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
Darryl said
>
> I was flying my 601HD last weekend on a 200 mile/ 2 hour circle tour of the
> outer Perimeter of Calgary's Class C airspace (I have no transponder) and
> noticed an apparently higher than usual rate of fuel consumption for the
> rotax 912UL. I don't have any fuel management system, but after landing I
> put 10 gallons back in instead of the normal 8 (ie. 5 gph instead of 4gph).
Darryl, what is your normal cruising speed in the HD and at what
revs? Were you cruising faster than normal on this flight or were
you heavier than normal? As always I'm interested in real life 601HD
performance. Most of the figures we see are for the HDS.
James Tannock
Nottingham
England
601HD outer wings done from kit
Tail group done from plans
Building rear fuselage from plans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Seat Bottom Installation |
Hi,
Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble
figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12
is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from
10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be
located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks
- Andrew
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
> Of course, this measured fuel consumption rate may be innaccurate, and
there
> still is no actual tank level sensor input so the fuel remaining info is
> just calculated based on the rate and time.
Darryl:
I have put Datcom level senders (from Aircraft Spruce @ $20 each) in my
tanks (fuselage and two wing tanks). They are working well. They require
about a 2" hole cut in the tanks. I mounted the senders in the top of the
wing tanks and high on the side of the fuselage tank as there is not enough
clearance to mount it on the top. Stop by at the hangar and you can take a
look at the installation. Feel free to open one of the wing lockers and
take a look.
In reply to your question in your other post the new radiator has solved my
overheating problem. Now once I get my new pushrods I have to start flying
the 25 hours off all over again hopefully with no more excitement.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
General interest:
For those USA builders,on July 22, PBS will be airing a docuntary
orginally made for British TV, titled PLANE CRAZY. A guy named Bob
Cringely, builds a homebuilt in 28 days.
Three one hour episodes will be aired all at once on the 22nd. He not
building a Zodiac,
but what the heck...He is building a Airplane.
As they say,check your local listings.
See you at Oshkosh
Robin Gould
San Jose, CA
601DH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | philip polstra <ppolstra(at)inetnow.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat Bottom Installation |
Andrew Sanclemente wrote:
> Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble
> figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12
> is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from
> 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be
> located, or if it matters.
I don't think it matters at all. I just roughly centered the seat
bottoms so that I wouldn't be sitting on a rivet line.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
Daryl;
Can you tell us a bit how these fuel senders work? Are they electric? Do they
have meters? What about having to remove or service the sender?
What about the "shape" of the tank? Seems like that would influence the
positioning of the sensor...
Thanks;
James
> Darryl:
> I have put Datcom level senders (from Aircraft Spruce @ $20 each) in my
> tanks (fuselage and two wing tanks). They are working well. They require
> about a 2" hole cut in the tanks. I mounted the senders in the top of the
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1gfzr39" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale |
For Sale;
1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD
T.T 51 hrs.
Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T.
G.S.C.Prop
VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom
Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base
Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder
Narco A.D.F.
Full Instruments
Alt. Static
Cabin Vents
Elect. Elevator Trim
Elect. Aileron Trim
Nav & Strobe Lights
D.C. Booster Pump
Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump
Completely Upholstered
Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable )
3 Point Seat Belts
Tow Bar
Landing Light in Stbd. Wing
Disc Brakes
Colour Burgundy on White
Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be
seen to be appreciated.
I will send pictures on request.
Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S.
Any interested persons please contact,
Eugene G. Cowie
211 Brookside Drive
Kingston N.S. Canada
B0P 1R0
902 765 2214
E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Thank you for posting this AD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat Bottom Installation |
Andrew Sanclemente wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble
> figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12
> is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from
> 10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be
> located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated,
Just make it 10mm and you can adjust the final sitting level by padding
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seat Bottom Installation |
<<
Hi,
Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble
figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from 6V12
is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section from
10-30mm. I can't find how far up the front/back the seat bottom should be
located, or if it matters. Any additional help would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks
- Andrew
>>
Probably shouldn't matter - I'd shoot for 20 mm above the bottom of the seat
panel - use wooden spacers. Watch out for the seat belt bracket - they may
interfere with the seat bottom panel. You may end up installing the seat
bottom close to the bottom of the seat panel to clear the seat belt bracket
and use more cushions to get the desired height. Looks like that is how I am
going to do it, wthin the next few weeks.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax 912UL
and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and error?).
I actually get about 108 mph sometimes, but it is hard to tell, even with
GPS. I usually fly alone at total take-off weight of 887 lbs. There were a
fair number of TCUs about, so I may have been seeing variable direction
headwinds on my circle tour.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: James Tannock <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>
>
>Darryl, what is your normal cruising speed in the HD and at what
>revs? Were you cruising faster than normal on this flight or were
>you heavier than normal? As always I'm interested in real life 601HD
>performance. Most of the figures we see are for the HDS.
>
>James Tannock
>Nottingham
>England
>601HD outer wings done from kit
>Tail group done from plans
>Building rear fuselage from plans
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
>I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax 912UL
>and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and error?).
>I actually get about 108 mph sometimes,
>Darryl
+++ Hey Darryl, Are these numbers for HD or HDS? Thanks Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cps <cps(at)tisd.net> |
Where do you run the wing tank fuel lines. Do you install a
left-right-off valve and where.
Where do you install the gascolator. Is the fuelpump installed in the
baggage comp. Any help would be appreciated.
Chuck ps a friend lent me some foot long drill bits today - BIG
help - wish I had ordered before I started a year ago.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
Fred:
These numbers are for my 601-HD c/w rotax912UL @ 5500' ASL / 18 deg C (my
home base is Springbank Airport [CYBW] just west of Calgary, AB, Canada.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>
>
>>I flight plan for 100 mph cruise at 5400 rpm, 4 USGPH with the rotax
912UL
>>and my 3-blade warpdrive prop at fixed max cruise pitch (trial and
error?).
>>I actually get about 108 mph sometimes,
>>Darryl
>
>+++ Hey Darryl, Are these numbers for HD or HDS? Thanks Fred
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
>Have any of you out there in Zenith-List Land tried out the Matronics (our
>host) FuelScan LT (or DX) Fuel Flow Flowrate Indicator/ Managers ? Or any
>other brand of fuel management systems? I was never crazy about the
>"top-half-only" main fuel tank level sight tube. It is good for simplicity
Although our plane isn't yet flying, we have installed both a Skysports
capacitance fuel gauge system and the fuel flow sensor for the Grand Rapids
Technologies EIS engine monitoring system.
The former looks like it may be the same as the "Microflight" fuel gauge
system found in the Aircraft Spruce Catalog. I have seen one of this style
of capacitance gauge installed at the top of a Zenair fuselage tank. The top
of the sender unit is a disc of roughly 3" in diameter and 3/4 of an inch
thickness. Since the fuselage tank and top fuselage skin are close together,
the skin had to have a section cut out, and a fibreglass bulge installed
over top. Or one would have to weld a recess into the top of the fuel tank.
We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom of
the tank. I think we can still hook it up so that the fuel indications
aren't backwards...
When buying a capacitance unit, it is necessary to know whether the rod will
have to be bent to suit the tank, or whether it needs to be cut to a certain
length. It's easy to buy a unit off the shelf and not realize that it isn't
"one size fits all". There are different versions depending on whether the
rod is bendable (within a certain length near the top), and for different
lengths to which the rod can be cut to.
The fuel flow option for the EIS is the cheapest electronic fuel flow system
I've seen...IF one already happens to be using the EIS for one's engine
gauges. Its a $375 US option, giving the usual fuel flow, totalizer, and
time remaining. Other than Matronics, the other reasonably priced flow
system that I've seen is from DMR, a company in Texas I believe. They have
advertised in Sport Aviation, but not all the time. Maybe they're in Kitplanes?
For those with electronics experience, one could build one's own system,
using one of the $170 US FloScan fuel flow sensors that seem to used by most
other fuel flow systems. Their sensors (a number of versions are available)
output a particular number of electric pulses per gallon of flow.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Didn't believe it, but happy to say.. |
I must admit that it was hard to believe the bowed HDS wing spars included
in my kit could easily be straighten when skinning. By the liberal use of
clamps and clecoes, I have a very nice and straight spar now. Sometimes you
just have to get in there and do it and things just work out.
Don Honabach
601HDS - Tempe, AZ
Skinning the back half of both the left and right 601HDS wings.
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Seat Bottom Installation |
>
> Andrew Sanclemente wrote:
> > Im installing the seat bottoms on my 601 HDS and am having trouble
> > figuring out exactly where and how its installed. All I can get from
6V12
> > is that I can adjust the height from the bottom of the center section
from
> > 10-30mm.
You can fiddle quite a bit of extra height here if you are tall. Get
someone with a bandsaw to cut you out seat size in dense polyrethane foam
so that it fits the base and back exactly and the upper surface an
approximate of you rear end. Make a 1/4in ply blank. Then put foam base
in and sit on it with padding. If wrong shape, modity, if necessary start
again. When you have it right put the foam blocks in and put the Al seat
over them. Reason, the seat metal is light and gets very bent and deformed
from people's feet and standing on seat belt buckles. The foam plug will be
about 4 in deep in centre, more if you are shortish.
As the foam takes the weight, I then put the Al sheet in with self
tapping screws so I can take them out if I want to get at anything, or put
in between knees sticks. Allow for a couple of sheets of 1in rubber etc
padding and cushion. You can then watch passengers stand on seats without
the agonising decision as to whether be a gentleman and remain silent or be
human and scream.
El Nino stinks, have had record floods and two short flights in the
last month.
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GEOFFHUDSN(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Building on TV |
You mention the British three part series on buiding a homebuilt in 28 days. I
have already seen it, and it does not do much to encourage safe and sensible
building. From what I read on the Zenith list, you guys are way ahead in
responsible buiding than the guy in PLANE CRAZY. See what you think.
Geoff.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
Ahem, Gentlemen,
Uh, just a thought, here. What about the fuel flow indicators used in automotive
applications? A number of these road warriors have fuel consumption gauges. Can
they be adapted easily and cheaply?(or at all) Or is this, for reasons I am
ignorant of, not feasible?
They would be in pretty good supply from the local boneyard. Has anyone tried
this?
James Neely
Captain, Essex Air Force I
(Essex Air Force III has just recently lifted off for the first time)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
> So that Zodiac and 701 builders may find a common time and place to
> meet, cuss and discuss plans and projects may I suggest 10 a.m. and 2
> p.m. daily at the Zenith display tent.
Is that decided? 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.? How about just one or the other
time only so that more people can meet at once?
> I've met several builders at past Oshkosh events, but it seems to have
> always been by chance rather than by design. The Saturday night
> builder's dinner is one opportunity to get together, but I would like to
> have still more opportunities than that.
I think 10 a.m. only would be a great time to meet, in order to maximize
chance meetings.
> I will be there Thursday thru Saturday. Who else will be there?
I'll be there helping my father represent JPX Aircraft Engines. I'll
stop by the Zenair tent around 10 a.m. every morning that I can. The
JPX display will be in the UL area this year. Last time we were in the
North Aircraft Display area (where Zenair is) and there was practically
zero foot traffic through there.
We'll have the JPX 4TX90 installed on a Zenair mount and firewall.
I look forward to meeting all you "list" guys, and put a face to the
words.
See you then,
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mackenzie, Hugh" <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca> |
Anyone in the southern Ontario area going to be in the Grimsby area in
the next couple weeks? I would really like to get a second set of eyes
to review things before the final inspection.
Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance
and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called
wanted $280/scale!! Yes, that's to RENT, Yikes!!!
And lastly, are people using the drilled bolts and cotter pins Zenair
supplies for the Propeller hub (Stratus Subaru) and Warp Drive prop? If
so, how are you torquing down your bolts? I have mounted mine based on
the instructions I have received (torque them to the proper value and
then continue turning until the holes for the cotter pins line up) but
I'm not sure I like this, any comments? With this approach, not all
bolts have the same torque and some have more than the stated value.
Thanks,
Hugh MacKenzie
601HDS
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ont.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com>
Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 11:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>
>
>>We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom
of
the tank. I think we can still hook it up so that the fuel indications
aren't backwards...
Peter,
What does this sender use for sealing? I've looked at a couple senders, but
was unhappy with the cork or rubber gaskets having seen far too many of
these leak in marine applications. I have allowed myself to use one in the
wing tank, but am afraid of a cockpit fuel leak if one is installed in the
lower portions of the header tank.
George
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Senders |
> Can you tell us a bit how these fuel senders work? Are they electric? Do
they
> have meters? What about having to remove or service the sender?
>
> What about the "shape" of the tank? Seems like that would influence the
> positioning of the sensor...
The senders are a float type. The float is connected by an adjustable arm
to a rheostat which drives a meter. The meters are sold seperately and are
about $25. There is a single wire connection from the meter to the sender
plus a ground. The senders are attached to the tank with screws so they
can be removed if they are accessable. This is easy with the Zodiac wing
tanks and tough with the fuselage tank. I made a split aliminum ring to go
inside the tank to accept the screws. It has to be split to fit through
the hole in the tank. It's the float travel that is important. It needs
to be able to move from the bottom of the tank to the top. I had to
reshape the arm and bracket to make this work on the fuselage tank but it
wasn't hard to figure out how to bend things. I have two meters, one for
the fuselage tank and a second which I can switch between each wing tank.
You use only one gauge with a three position switch.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Review |
My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740 lbs with
subaru). I used one normal (0-250 lb) bathroom scale under one wheel and
various wood scraps and a bubble level for leveling the other 2 wheels in
order to weigh my plane one wheel at a time. Wallmart sells cheapo scales at
less than $20 each, and buying 3 of those would make it even simpler. The
mains will see the highest load, maybe try slipping your bathroom scale
under one to see if it is still in the range (it was on mine). Do your
measurements twice to reduce errors.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Mackenzie, Hugh <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 12:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Final Review
>
>
>Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance
>and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
Are these automotive fuel flowrate indicators available as new sold-separate
parts or aftermarket items? Does anyone know of any suppliers/ brands /
models? I already tried asking around a few auto performance shops and
nobody there seemed to know much about them. Obviously the OEM car/truck
manufacturers get them from somewhere. Maybe I should ask GM?
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Flowrate Indicators
>
>Ahem, Gentlemen,
>Uh, just a thought, here. What about the fuel flow indicators used in
automotive
>applications? A number of these road warriors have fuel consumption
gauges. Can
>they be adapted easily and cheaply?(or at all) Or is this, for reasons I
am
>ignorant of, not feasible?
>They would be in pretty good supply from the local boneyard. Has anyone
tried
>this?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Oshkosh and e-mail |
Hi everyone:
For those of you whom I correspond with on a regular basis, my e-mail has
changed to:
cousins(at)globalserve.net
and the CH300 Web page has been moved to the address below.
Anyone going to Oshkosh, why don't we all meet at the Zenair tent on the
29'th at about 14:30 local???
Cheers
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel sensor sealing (was: fuel flow sensors) |
>>>We installed our sender sticking upwards from the slightly sloping bottom
>of the tank.
>What does this sender use for sealing? I've looked at a couple senders, but
>was unhappy with the cork or rubber gaskets having seen far too many of
>these leak in marine applications. I have allowed myself to use one in the
Not sure actually - and I'm not in the same city as the airplane. We used
whatever came with the unit, but my dad also applied some sort of gasket
sealant goo. So all I can say is that our installation is one way of doing
things; we don't yet have proof that it's any good.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flowrate Indicators |
"James Neely" Wrote:
| (Essex Air Force III has just recently lifted off for the
| first time)
|
James,
Who is 'Air Force III' ? Any flight reports?
Paul Perry
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ.
Not bad eh! Ordered the kit on the 27th January and received same on the
21st July. I am a very patient person but I was starting to get a little
browned off with the delays. Unpacked the box last night and have begun the
inventory, so far only the instructions for mounting the in baggage locker
fuel tanks is missing but I'm sure I can play that by ear. I have had the
plans since early April so I am fairly familiar with the bits and pieces
although the original plans and instructions are pretty poor. The
downloadable C.A.D. drawings are much better and I pity anyone who does not
have access to the internet both for the excellent info from all you guys
and the better drawings.
You guys should think yourselves lucky, it has cost me $2450.00 aust just to
get the kit here so I can't afford the luxury of botching a part and
ordering a replacement from the factory.
Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear
situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the
drawings.
As I have not yet seen a Zodiac in the flesh the building will be very
interesting to see how they look in reality. keep the information coming,
I'm soaking it up like a sponge.
Barry Mayne (HDS just beginning) land of OZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
>
>Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ.
++++ You have my curiosity up.... where IS OZ that it would cost so much to
ship to?
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
BARRY MAYNE wrote:
Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear
> situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the
> drawings.
I've got 60hrs on mine and know of one with hundreds,(He uses it for training).
No worries, Mate! Everything on this plane is primitive, it seems, but "struth,
it works just bonzer." Just follow the instructions. If you start trying to
second guess the guy who has been producing this bird for over ten years, you'll
just double the build time and probably frustrate yourself, (ask me how I know).
Hundreds of them fly just fine when built the way Chris Heintz says to build 'em.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
Was hoping for some input for fellow builders how are actually flying the
601. It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your
left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601
design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with
your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios.
For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust
fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left.
It seems like it could be a bit of a pain, but since I've never flown the
601, I probably imagining the worse.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
Barry,
Good luck with your kit. I am just finishing up the stabilizer. I have
finished the rudder and elevator thus far.
To date I have only had to spend $7.25 US for a replacement upper rudder
bearing that I drilled incorrectly. I've been careful and lucky!!
Use caution with the online construction manuals. They are good but do
contain some mistakes. Always reference the drawings when in doubt.
Regards,
Bill Morelli - USA - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
Finishing Stabilizer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
>
>Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the wear
>situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit primitive on the
>drawings.
>Hi Barry,
Congrats on the kit arrival. That's one of the best parts.
I have 700 hrs on the Hobbs on my 601HDS (912/Trike), and recently removed
the pilot side main gear for inspection. I fly from a very rough grass
strip, and thought for sure the gear sliders would be worn. I was
pleasantly suprised to find very little wear-maybe a 4mm indent where the
steel gear guides sit most of the time as you taxi. The rest of the sliders
showed very little wear.
>
> Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
> >Well, my kit has finally arrived down here in OZ.
> ++++ You have my curiosity up.... where IS OZ that it would cost so much
to
> ship to?
> Fred
Allow me to clarify. Oz is the largish mess blocking up the west
Pacific, sometimes known as "The other Island!!" It consists mainly of
sand, flies, blacksnakes and a largish sloppy objects called Ozzes, who
speak an odd dialect called "Strine!" For historical reasons they often
have scars round their ankles and they specialise in underarm bowling!
It has one state called Queensland, about four times as big as Texas
where there are some real decent people, Texans feels right at home there.
The rest of the country want to give it back to the blacks, I understand
Queenslanders are being difficult about that. The federal government were
going start by taking guns off the Queenslanders and we could hear the
laughing from here.
On a more serious note am glad the odd Zodiac is being built there, I
have always thought they were a very suitable homebuilt. They make some
good microlights, such as the Skyfox (version of Kitfox) at Caloundra, a
nice machine but which suffers from a speed of only 70-75 mph, too slow if
it takes your three days to cross a state. The Jabiru is also on the slow
side, and Australias sun is not the best on fabric machines. To fly round
the country is about 7000 miles and it has been done in machines as
unsuitable as powered parachutes and trikes , (a powered hangglider). I
think a in 601 it would be a fun trip. Hope this clarifies the
geography,,politics and mores of the Southwest Pacific. The high freight
charges are either the cause or result of a massive confrontation going on
on the waterfront there lately.
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 11:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Controls...
>
>For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust
>fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left.
>
I forgot about the radios, Don. I was thinking how to learn to write lefty
to copy a clearance.. Guess I'll just stay clear of those controlled
________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740
> lbs with
> subaru).
>
740 lbs ?????? I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and
my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete
panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead filled
bolts?
> I used one normal (0-250 lb) bathroom scale under one wheel and
> various wood scraps and a bubble level for leveling the other 2 wheels
> in
> order to weigh my plane one wheel at a time. Wallmart sells cheapo
> scales at
> less than $20 each, and buying 3 of those would make it even simpler.
>
This is what I did. I also made three measurements rotating the scales
from wheel to wheel each time to average out any error in the scales.
There was less than two lbs variation between scales.
> The
> mains will see the highest load, maybe try slipping your bathroom
> scale
> under one to see if it is still in the range (it was on mine). Do your
> measurements twice to reduce errors.
>
> Darryl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mackenzie, Hugh <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca>
> To: 'zenith-list(at)matronics.com'
> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 12:37 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Final Review
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Also, what kind of scales are people using for the weight and balance
> >and where can you find them? The first scale rental place I called
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Was hoping for some input for fellow builders how are actually flying
> the
> 601. It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with
> your
> left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the
> 601
> design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power
> with
> your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the
> radios.
> For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to
> adjust
> fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left.
>
> It seems like it could be a bit of a pain, but since I've never flown
> the
> 601, I probably imagining the worse.
>
>
Don... I have my radios in the center of the panel. Once the plane is
trimmed it is just as stable as any other. So I have no problem
releasing the stick long enough to adjust the radio.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
BARRY MAYNE wrote:
> Does anyone with some hours on their craft want to comment on the
> wear situation regarding the main gear slides? It looks a bit
>primitive on the drawings.
You may be interested to know that at the UK PFA Rally recently the
Czech 'Zenair' plant showed quick-build kits for 601 and 701. The
Czech plant has been set up with Zenith support and is run by Chip
Erwin. They are selling Zenith kits and built aircraft throughout
Europe under various national regulations.
These kits had machined nylon bushes on nose gear, plus nylon bushes
and sliders for main gear on the 601. The gear legs were chromed.
The workmanship seemed very good, and by repute the workforce cut
their teeth making MIG 21s. The thinking might be that customers
for complete 601s (i.e flight schools) would not be satisfied with
gear bearing arrangements as per the plans.
The Czech company will also supply (to Europe via national
distributors) standard full and part kits as per Zenith price lists,
and also individual parts. I am thinking of ordering those lovely
chromed gear legs and nylon bushes.
James Tannock
Nottingham
England
601HD outer wings done from kit
Tail group done from plans
Building rear fuselage from plans
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
In a message dated 7/22/98 3:03:33 AM, fhulen(at)primenet.com writes:
<>
Last I heard OZ was somewhere over the rainbow.
Ok, I apologize.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Review |
Weston, Jim wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be 740 lbs with
> subaru).
> Sounds about right.
> I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and
> my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete
> panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead filled
> bolts?
> I have a suspicion that if you guys used "certified" scales, you'd find your
> birds gained a little weight. Bathroom scales are notorious for under-reading
> from 5 to 15lb when compared to medical scales, (ask me how I know this 8-)
)
> The differences wouldn't perturb me too much,though, since I'd be mostly
> concerned w/ where the CG is located, and the 601 isn't particularly weight
> sensitive. Someone I knowREALLY well has flown at over 1300# with no problems
> in handling or undue increase in TO roll. (800' @ 35deg OAT, ROC was about
> 500fpm)
BTW, my 601HD/EA81/warp/belt dr. weighs 676lb. Essex AirforceII (EA82, HDS),
weighs 700lb. Essex AirforceIII (Jabiru engine,HDS) weighs 568lb
________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Weston, Jim wrote:
>
> <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > My zodiac-HD /912 came out less than 600 lbs empty (some may be
> 740 lbs with
> > subaru).
>
> > Sounds about right.
>
> > I have the Stratus Subaru in the CH601HDS tri-gear and
> > my empty weight came in at 651 lbs. This is with a pretty complete
> > panel of instruments and two wing tanks. Is someone using lead
> filled
> > bolts?
>
>
>
> > I have a suspicion that if you guys used "certified" scales, you'd
> find your
> > birds gained a little weight. Bathroom scales are notorious for
> under-reading
> > from 5 to 15lb when compared to medical scales, (ask me how I know
> this 8-) )
>
> > The differences wouldn't perturb me too much,though, since I'd be
> mostly
> > concerned w/ where the CG is located, and the 601 isn't particularly
> weight
> > sensitive. Someone I knowREALLY well has flown at over 1300# with
> no problems
> > in handling or undue increase in TO roll. (800' @ 35deg OAT, ROC
> was about
> > 500fpm)
>
> BTW, my 601HD/EA81/warp/belt dr. weighs 676lb. Essex AirforceII
> (EA82, HDS),
> weighs 700lb. Essex AirforceIII (Jabiru engine,HDS) weighs 568lb
>
> I did test my store bought scales against aircraft scales, as well as
> a digital scale and there was never more than a two pound variance.
> My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to this
> number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I also
> have the optional wheel pants installed.
>
> Jim Weston
> CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru
> McDonough, Ga.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98 |
>It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your
left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601
design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with
your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios.
I just fly with my left hand for the short time required to adjust radios.
It really is not a big deal, and
I like the Zodiac philosophy, "as simple as possible, but no simpler", so
I would not want to change
to dual sticks. Besides, with an armrest the Zodiac is the most
comfortable plane to hand-fly that
I've ever flown.
The best solution, imho, is a good autopilot. Expensive, tho...
Glen, N601LZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Review |
Weston, Jim wrote:
> >
> > I did test my store bought scales against aircraft scales, as well as
> > a digital scale and there was never more than a two pound variance.
> > My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to this
> > number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I also
> > have the optional wheel pants installed.
> >
Excellent! I wish I could find a scale that accurate.
You obviously built her right, then. Mine hasn't got the pants on yet. I'm in
the process off making them, and they're sure pretty! (made a set of molds from
a
carved foam plug). Each weighs about 2.5lb before mounting hardware and paint.
So
that should translate to 6lb total, (taildragger) I would like to see about 5mph
extra w/ these mounted. We'll see.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98 |
Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com wrote:
> -
> >It seems in Cherokee and Cessena's, etc. that you control with your
> left hand and adjust power and radios with your right hand. While the 601
> design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with
> your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios.
This is standard w/ Citabria, and such, not a biggie.
I mounted my STS handheld down below the centre of the panel, putting the buttons
about level w/ the base of the stick. Wrong! I can barely see the screen, and
punching in freqs is a pain. Still, until I change my panel, it will have to do.
The bird is quite stable, so it's no more than a minor annoyance caused by poor
planning on my part.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Commentary: Radios for Airplanes.... |
I've been following the thread about "how do you twiddle the radio knobs
when you're flying with the same hand". It's a good thing the Zodiac
is so stable, so that's not such a big deal.
I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation. I'm
a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio users are
much more diverse and imaginative.
You can get all sorts of shapes, sizes and configurations of ham radios. Big
thing right now is a radio with a removable front panel, connected by a cable to
the main "brick". You can attach the little panel anywhere and hide the brick
anywhere within the constraints of the cable. And the physical sizes of a 50
watt radio are much, much smaller than aviation radios. My mobile 2-meter VHF
FM rig is only about 6 inches deep: 3" of radio and 3" of heat sink.
ICOM and Val-Com have the right idea with their comm radios: very thin height.
Terra has their interesting COM and NAV "1/2 brick" radios. However, their
depth into the panel are still "aviation standard", something like 12" deep or
so, making it more difficult to use these with any size of header tank...
Right now, the best bet for small size appears to be one of the handheld
aviation "walkie-talkie" size radios. It's a shame you can't buy something
similar or only slightly larger, with big buttons and a big display, for
in-panel mounting.
Ya know: it wouldn't be too hard to MAKE a VHF AM aviation radio, digital
display and all. Wow. You could put as BIG a display as you WANTED on it, make
it easy to read and give it big knobs for ease of use, lots of frequency
memories, backlighting and high power. You could make it any darn SIZE and
SHAPE you want, and you could adhere to the "Karmic" standard for
interconnecting it to the airplane.
If we had these kind of choices in aviation, you could have a radio in your
plane without having to put ANY extra holes in your panel!
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes.... |
>
>I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation.
I'm
>a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio
users are
>much more diverse and imaginative.
I've thought the same (KG7DM here) but the quantity sold is probably quite
small.
>Right now, the best bet for small size appears to be one of the handheld
>aviation "walkie-talkie" size radios. It's a shame you can't buy something
>similar or only slightly larger, with big buttons and a big display, for
>in-panel mounting.
I have an Icom IC-22, and the point might be that without the battery it is
tiny. The battery is the older, on the bottom style, not needed with any
other source of power. I've made several prototype radio brackets, and with
the belt mount, it's easy to slide on and off certain configurations. I saw
a couple mounted in gliders this way, probably with an aux battery, since
this was a glider. In any event, and the power is OK with a good antenna,
in my limited experience.
You can also get portable intercoms that connect to this radio.
>James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | stampest(at)wwwinc.com (Stamper, Steve) |
| Subject: | Commentary: Radios for |
I agree. When our friends at the FAA join with the FCC we're bound for nothing but fun! Go check out http://www.rst-engr.com/. They aren't there yet but are kicking around some of the ideas you have.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com |
Hi everybody,
there was a question a few days ago, whether or not a homebuilder can do his or
her on engine inspection. Today I found an article in the recent issue of
Filght Training, that stated, that a homebuilder can do the inspection work on
a certificated aircraft engine, but then this particular engine will lose its
certification. It has no effect for the homebuild aircraft, but this engine
can't be used on "regular" airplanes. See also: Flight Training, August 98,
article "Who, Me? Build an Airplane" on page 72 (BTW: a nice article about
homebuilds - especially the last paragraph about participation of spouses 8:) ).
Thilo Kind
Going on August 8th to Mexico, Mo, to pick up 601 HDS kit
________________________________________________________________________________
> > > My plane may not weigh exactly 651 lbs, but it sure is close to
> this
> > > number. In addition to the instruments that I mentioned below, I
> also
> > > have the optional wheel pants installed.
> > >
>
> Excellent! I wish I could find a scale that accurate.
> You obviously built her right, then.
>
James...I was re-reading my note and noticed that I forgot to mention
that my plane is not painted or upholstered yet. This will probably add
about 10 lbs which will make it pretty close to your, I believe you call
it, Airforce I.
I plan to paint and upholster the plane this early fall when the weather
starts to cool some. The metal hangar is just too darn hot with this 90
F + temps we have been having.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS tri-gear
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
What were your impressions?
If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help.
Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
>What were your impressions?
>If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
>I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help.
I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry!
Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be
surprised:
Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON
building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on
building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he
had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew.
Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just
doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools available.
Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings
towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping
to see more actual construction with how's and why's.
Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the
Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's
website.
In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail
oriented.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
While the 601
> design requires that you fly with your right hand and control power with
> your left and I'm not sure about which hand would be best for the radios.
> For example, do you take your right hand off the control stick to adjust
> fequencies and such or try to reach over with your left.
I thought the whole arrangement would take a lot more getting used to that
it has. From my limited experience (about 20 hours in 601s) I never even
really noticed the different hands from a control point of view.
I mounted my radios on the left side of the panel so that I can twist knobs
with my left hand. The only time that I have noticed any awkwardness was
in trying to record performance data while flying. It's not too hard to
hold the stick with your left hand while you write though and trimmed out
the aircraft will fly straight & level for quite a while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 07/21/98 |
I like the Zodiac philosophy, "as simple as possible, but no simpler", so
>I would not want to change
>to dual sticks. Besides, with an armrest the Zodiac is the most
>comfortable plane to hand-fly that
>I've ever flown.
>
>The best solution, imho, is a good autopilot. Expensive, tho...
>
>Glen, N601LZ
+++++ OR.... "Here Honey, hold her level for a minute while I change the
radio"... Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
I monitor the list and just had to respond to this. I also had hopes of seeing
something more productive with this show. It was entertaining but typical of the
"touchy feely, tree hugging" that is presented on PBS. This guy is obviously an
intelligent, able sort that has done much. I would think if he can build a
Glasair and several other homebuilts, and grow up in the shadow of so many able
aviation enthusiasts, he should have been able to clearly see his "plan" was
failed from the start. His emotion and passion are commendable but not in this
type of work. It was funny to see all his counterparts presented as logical,
calm, clear thinking beings and enter from stage right, Mr Head In The Clouds.
I
liked the program because we all laughed but I am not sure it did much for our
cause. I think people look funny at us now as it is. Thank God for the folks at
Fisher. I thought I was loosing it for a moment there. Well enough from me.
BTW: the lady was his "girlfriend".
Happy Building To All!
Kevin_L_Williams(at)hp.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
Date: 7/23/98 10:34 AM
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
>What were your impressions?
>If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
>I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help.
I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry!
Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be
surprised:
Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON
building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on
building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he
had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew.
Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just
doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools available.
Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings
towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping
to see more actual construction with how's and why's.
Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the
Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's
website.
In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail
oriented.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marrah, Michael" <MMARRAH(at)ThompsonCoburn.com> |
| Subject: | PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
Don, I saw the show and was very troubled by it.
By way of introduction, I am not (yet) a builder or pilot, but am very
interested in both. For the past 8 months or so I have been casually
researching private piloting and kit building through all sorts of
books, magazines, this site, etc. I've been especially intrigued with
the Zenith for the quality and simplicity of its product and the fact
that its factory is less than 100 miles away from my home in St. Louis.
In any event, one thing that I have been uniformly impressed by from all
my information sources is the extremely high level of knowledge and
professionalism exhibited by home builders.
Because of that I was very troubled by what I felt to be the outrageous
conduct of the host of "Plane Crazy." It was clear he had absolutely no
plan and no clue how to design, build, or test fly a plane at all -- not
to mention in 30 days! His lack of quality and competence was really
shocking. It was clear that the only reason he was able to build a
plane at all was that he was relegated to becoming a third level helper
to factory trained designers and builders of an established kit. Please
tell me this guy is not characteristic of the industry!
I would not recommend buying the show (for $39.99), but if you get it
for free, it seems to me to be a good example of how not to build an
experimental.
Just my thought. thanks for the soapbox.
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 9:35 AM
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
>
>
> >Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
> >What were your impressions?
> >If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
> >I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your
> help.
>
>
>
> I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry!
>
> Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be
> surprised:
>
>
> Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A
> PERSON
> building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he
> decided on
> building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30
> days he
> had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera
> crew.
> Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs.
> Just
> doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools
> available.
>
> Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his
> feelings
> towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was
> hoping
> to see more actual construction with how's and why's.
>
> Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on
> the
> Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed
> Zenith's
> website.
>
> In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more
> detail
> oriented.
>
> Don Honabach
> Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
> Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
I watched it from start to finish and was amazed at what a cry baby this guy
was. If he thought he was going to finsh this project in 30, 8 hour days he
was "JUST PLANE" stupid. I would have thought he would have assumed from the
start that he would be having 30 consecutive 20 hour days. No way around it.
I persoanly feel the task could be done if it were approached more
systematically and by a person who could do his own drawings. He hadn't done
one tiny bit of construction for his first seven days! And I think using
fiberglass was a mistake for this project. We might be biased here in the
Zenith world but I think he should have gone all metal. He could have
purchsed preformed ribs, spars etc from AC spruce and still called it his own
design.
Anyway, I feel this show was bad for the "homebuilt" movement and it almost
makes me (Mr. Conspiracy theory) wonder if there was some alterior motive for
broadcasting it.
And that host needs to learn that yiddish for "rear end" is tuchas,
pronounced tuchhhhhas (real flemmy sound in the voice her. Not "Took-Us"
Be that as it may, the show was a hoot. I wonder if I could PBS to do a
special on mine and Don's project. Hmmmm, I do know one big wig at
TV-3........ I wonder if I could get them to spring for the engine, hmmmmmmm
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
Don and I know one builder putting pilot controls on the right. Does anyone
else see this as a viable solution to the issue being discussed here? I am
also considering this but am undecided at this point. Any input would be
appreciated. I know it might seem easy, but when flying through and around
the Class B airspace in Phoenix it can very taxing to try and right
instructions left handed while trying to maintian tight altitude and heading
instructions flying over a moutainous valley in the summer. Even the tightest
trimmed airplane bounces around in those conditions.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
>
>
> Don, I saw the show and was very troubled by it.
>
> By way of introduction, I am not (yet) a builder or pilot, but am very
> interested in both. For the past 8 months or so I have been casually
> researching private piloting and kit building through all sorts of
> books, magazines, this site, etc. I've been especially intrigued with
> the Zenith for the quality and simplicity of its product and the fact
> that its factory is less than 100 miles away from my home in St.
> Louis.
> In any event, one thing that I have been uniformly impressed by from
> all
> my information sources is the extremely high level of knowledge and
> professionalism exhibited by home builders.
>
> Because of that I was very troubled by what I felt to be the
> outrageous
> conduct of the host of "Plane Crazy." It was clear he had absolutely
> no
> plan and no clue how to design, build, or test fly a plane at all --
> not
> to mention in 30 days! His lack of quality and competence was really
> shocking. It was clear that the only reason he was able to build a
> plane at all was that he was relegated to becoming a third level
> helper
> to factory trained designers and builders of an established kit.
> Please
> tell me this guy is not characteristic of the industry!
>
> I would not recommend buying the show (for $39.99), but if you get it
> for free, it seems to me to be a good example of how not to build an
> experimental.
>
> Just my thought. thanks for the soapbox.
> Mike
>
AMEN Brother.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
Tony;
I watched the show and also taped it. I was very interested in it and learned
quite a bit about plane building, since I didn't know squat about composite
building before I saw it.
I got all but the last 3 minutes in SP mode on a long Sony VHS tape, so it's
pretty good quality.
I don't have a 2nd VCR, but I've been shopping them and I'm considering buying
another one very soon. If you wanted me to make a copy of the tape for you,
that might be enough reason for me to go ahead and buy one to dub the tape
with.
Can you buy one of the Sony "8 hr" (in EP mode) tapes and mail it to me with
a return mailer enclosed? I'll be glad to copy the tape for you.
JKB
>
> Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
> What were your impressions?
> If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
> I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help.
>
> Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder
>
>
>
>
>
>
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tomkat(at)t.imap.itd.umich.edu (Dennis Kayner) |
| Subject: | Re: PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
>What were your impressions?
>If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
>Tony Gunn, Houston HDS builder
Tony,
I taped it and will be happy to send it to you, just email your address to me.
My two cents: My wife and I both watched it and enjoyed the show, but took
it with a grain of salt. Fisher Aero got some good press out of it. Very
impressed with their small company.
Dennis Kayner
Tecumseh, MI
601 HD plans 2%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimmy L Ayres <jayres(at)entergy.com> |
| Subject: | Ballistic Parachutes |
Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a
ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it
and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance
policy.
Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next
month?
Jimmy Ayres
601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | More of "Just Plane Crazy" |
Hey guys;
I saw the show too, and taped it using one of the Sony extra-length tapes
(3 hours in "SP" mode), so I've got a decent copy. I even went back and reviewed
the last 30 minutes after the show was done.
I agree with all the feedback that's been presented here. I think the show has
had a POSITIVE effect on this list, of de-cloaking the lurkers. (Nothing
wrong with lurking!) Welcome! The most striking part of the whole show is how
self-focused Bob was, even to the point of overruling expert industry opinion
which he had wonderful access to. That was the FIRST resource he wasted!
Building a plane is hard stuff, outside the realm of experience for the
"ordinary man". The show pointed out exactly how incredibly difficult it is when
one goes scratch-built under such time pressure.
I don't know why he stacked the odds so heavily against himself. He didn't have
to build a fiberglass plane from scratch and didn't have to count the table and
jigs in with his "build time". Tools required to build the kit don't ever get
counted in the "time to build" numbers.
Why he didn't go for a kit in the first place is a mystery to me. We saw lots of
awesome video of a little 1-seat Bradley Aerobat. This would have been a
WONDERFUL (aluminum!) plane to built. Shoot, it's rated 150 hours. He'd have had
a fighting chance of getting it done, he already had the engine/instruments, and
he wouldn't have had to build the jigs. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH BUILDING SOMETHING
FOR TV THAT HE'D ALREADY BUILT AND HAD EXPERIENCE WITH?
SEcond thing I learned is that on his own, he failed. When he stuck close to
the mfr of the kit, he had success. It was VERY informative to see all the
failures you set yourself up for when you go it absolutely ALONE. Makes me want
to stick very close to the list and the guys at Zenith. Seeing his failure on
the TV highly motivated me: it made the danger of NOT FINISHING very real to me.
We all got to see what it's like to get to the end of his allotted building time
and have nothing but a pile of scrap fiberglass to show for it, and thousands of
dollars spent.
I was afraid the last hour, when he built the Fisher, was going to turn into a
commentary on the lifestyle of those "backwater hicks", particularly the stuff
on the church. (Don't criticize the way people live their lives in a show about
building planes, on TV.) In the end these "lowly dirt farmers" where the ones,
using proven (albeit non-sexy) low-technology methods, who were able to deliver
the plane and bring the goal of the TV show within reach.
Why in the heck DIDN'T he pick a Zenair plane to build? After all, one's already
been done in a week...he could have done an unpainted Zodiac in 30 days. He had
access to a great sheetmetal man in the TV show...he could have KICKED BUTT.
JKB
PS: Any of you computer geeks out there recognize the builder? Bob X. Cringely
wrote articles for InfoWeek and other computer magazines for years in which he
would divulge computer industry gossip. They even showed one of his "cringely
mugs". I haven't seen one of his articles in quite a while, so now I know what
he's been up to...
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
Jimmy,
Ive purchased a chute from BRS but have not yet installed, Im still
working on completing the fuselage center section. Another builder (Tom
Giles) has a completed installation and produced a set of preliminary draft
instructions on how to install for a very reasonable fee. Tom is very
knowledgeable and an extremely nice guy, he can be contacted at
TOMGILES(at)aol.com. The chute install recommended by Zenith will not work
according to both the people at BRS and Tom. When I finally get around to
installing mine Ill keep everyone posted as to how it goes,
- Andrew (601 HDS)
>
>Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a
>ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it
>and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance
>policy.
>
>Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next
>month?
>
>Jimmy Ayres
>601HDS
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | This Really Happened |
Guys, this isn't about airplanes, but it's too funny (or scary) not to
post.
Last night one of our employees who is working a temporary assignment in
Pascagoula, MS went out for a few drinks. He met a cute little girl and
they hit things off pretty well together. She ended up going home with
him and spent the night. This morning he woke up to find both his
wallet and his new truck gone.
The girls in our office just finished the first verse of the country
western song to "honor" this guy:
I lost my wallet,
I lost my truck,
I was so drunk,
Can't even remember the _uck.
We just hope he won't have another little surprise show up in the next
few days.
True story
Tony Gunn, Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
Guys, this thing just continues to grow.
Now it's the "Pascagoula Pick-Up Blues"
She stole my wallet, she stole my truck
But I can't remember if she was even a good _uck
Was the most expensive piece I ever had
But I's too drunk, don't know if it was good or it was bad
Took the photo of my dawg, and my only set of keys
Hope she didn't leave me with some awful sex disease.
This poor soul won't be able to show his face around here ever again.
It was another employee who ratted him out. I guess some things are
just too good to keep secret.
What is amazing is how much the women have taken this and run with it.
There will probably be 3 more verses by morning.
Guys, keep it straight which head should be doin the thinking.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
>Also, are any of you guys planning to attend Zenith's open house next
>month?
>Jimmy Ayres
+++ Yep, it's pretty close for me to go. Can't wait for when my own bird
is done so I can fly IT down there.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
Thanks for the input. I have been thinking about this ever since I thought
about building. please keep us posted.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: This Really Happened |
I hope she was really, really good. Poor guy.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim or Lucy Pollard <jpollard(at)mnsi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: This Really Happened |
m>
>
>Guys, this isn't about airplanes, but it's too funny (or scary) not to
>post.
>
>Last night one of our employees who is working a temporary assignment in
>Pascagoula, MS went out for a few drinks.
At least he still has his kidneys ;)
Jim Pollard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
Jimmy L Ayres wrote:
>
> Hey Guys, Have any of you installed or considered installing a
> ballistic parachute in your zodiac? If so, where would you mount it
> and attached to? I was thinking that would be a good life insurance
> policy.
> Jimmy Ayres
> 601HDS
>
Dear List,
I usually try to avoid advertising on this list if I can help it, but in
this case, I felt I could help somebody save quite a few bucks.
If anyone is interested, I get BRS brand parachute at dealer prices
(thanks to my Ultralight flight school). The BRS-5 1200 lb. canister
system retails for $3195.00 and I can get them for $2798.00 plus $53 UPS
shipping/haz-mat. That's close to $400 off retail.
See you Oshkosh-bound guys at the show.
Philippe Leroy
Cochise Air Sports Center
http://www.leroyent.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
Phillipe,
Do you know how to attach them the airframe?
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org |
601HD for sale, Subaru powered, signed off by the FAA for 40 hour
testing. Nice plane but owner died before it could be flown. more info
kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
| Subject: | PBS - Just Plane Crazy |
I saw it, did not tape it; was mildly amused but honestly thought to myself
how immature he was about the whole project, how unrealistic his
expectations were, and how totally unprepared and unprofessional his "first
flight attempt" and the first flight were conducted. The true value of the
show was his observation that ones hobbies do not make a good full time
avocation many times. If he's going to builod again and fly, I suggest he
get someone else to do the first flight for him. By the By, any chance his
"support" would help us finish our crates??? Dave w
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:35 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: PBS - Just Plane Crazy
>Did anybody watch the PBS special last night "Just Plane Crazy"?
>What were your impressions?
>If you recorded it would you be willing to loan it out?
>I'll pay all the postage and send you a pleasant surprise for your help.
I watched it last night. Didn't tape it though. Sorry!
Don't read below if you haven't seen the show and still want to be
surprised:
Had mixed feelings about the show. It seemed that the premise of A PERSON
building the plane in 30 days wasn't keeped. The final plane he decided on
building was a Fisher Aero Wood Design. In building the plane in 30 days he
had the help from most of the Fisher Aero Co., his wife, and camera crew.
Not to mention an engine specialist. He also used factory made jigs. Just
doesn't seem like the average builder has these time saving tools
available.
Was also disappointed in that the majority off the show was his feelings
towards the project, his wife, camera crew, etc. As a builder, I was hoping
to see more actual construction with how's and why's.
Not sure if anyone caught this, but when the 'Plane Crazy' guy was on the
Internet surfing around for plane designs, they actually showed Zenith's
website.
In short, definitely worth while to see, but just wish it was more detail
oriented.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
Working on Outboard Wings - Skinning the tops.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Repairman Certificate |
A while back someone brought up the question about being able to do work on
our engines. The person, I have forgotten who it was, said that since we
did not build the engine, we could not maintain it!
I presented this question to the EAA and here is the response:
Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do
anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector
hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a
Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You
have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you
want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the
best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv.
Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman
certificate.
Regards,
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798 - Finishing tail group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TWhiteh465(at)aol.com |
Jim weston unable to send u e-mail at jimweston@delta-air .com please give
good e-mail address Toney Whitehead email address twhiteh465(at)aol.com.
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Repairman Certificate |
Hi, Bill:
I tossed that out. Couldn't find where I saw it. Basically I was thinking
more of the annual. The annual on the engine actually is only a half dozen
points, I've since learned, maybe compression being the most time
consuming. I'm assuming we're not talking certificated engines in
homebuilts, which some people do, but probably not in the ZAC a/c.
The only other advice is non-regulatory, so it's take it or leave it. One
is to have every other annual done by someone who might be a disinterested.
I guess that would be an A & P. They probably are a little better trained
in some respects. Other advice was real obvious like "Don't think the
repairmans certificate means you know something, when you clearly don't."
There's also the insurance aspect.
Thanks. Glad you were able to clear it up.
George Sears
>
>A while back someone brought up the question about being able to do work on
>our engines. The person, I have forgotten who it was, said that since we
>did not build the engine, we could not maintain it!
>
>I presented this question to the EAA and here is the response:
>
>Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do
>anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector
>hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a
>Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You
>have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you
>want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the
>best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv.
>
>Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman
>certificate.
>
>Regards,
>Bill Morelli - Vermont
>HDS - 6-3798 - Finishing tail group
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eugene G. Cowie" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale |
-----Original Message-----
From: n1gfzr39 <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 4:16 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
>
>For Sale;
>1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD
>T.T 51 hrs.
>Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T.
>G.S.C.Prop
>VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom
>Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base
>Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder
>Narco A.D.F.
>Full Instruments
>Alt. Static
>Cabin Vents
>Elect. Elevator Trim
>Elect. Aileron Trim
>Nav & Strobe Lights
>D.C. Booster Pump
>Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump
>Completely Upholstered
>Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable )
>3 Point Seat Belts
>Tow Bar
>Landing Light in Stbd. Wing
>Disc Brakes
>Colour Burgundy on White
>
>Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be
>seen to be appreciated.
>I will send pictures on request.
>Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S.
>
>Any interested persons please contact,
>Eugene G. Cowie
>211 Brookside Drive
>Kingston N.S. Canada
>B0P 1R0
>902 765 2214
>E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca
>
>Thank you for posting this AD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TWhiteh465(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: arrival at last |
Not having ever built an airplane before I can't say that the plans are not
the best. I have read and re-read the instructions for the manufacture of
each wing item over and over until I understand them and can thouroughly see
how to make the item in my mind. I doubt that there is anyone building an
airplane for the first time that will be without understanding from time to
time. The support from Zenair for this scratch builder has been great and the
support from other builders and my local EAA Chapter keep me alive and
ambitious. I have completed all the wing ribs from plywood formers and
compared them with kit parts and they have been right-on. This has been very
encouraging so I'll continue with the manufacture of the wing spars.
Congratulations on receiving your Kit. Happy building
Toney Whitehead
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Ballistic Parachutes |
SLF998(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Phillipe,
>
> Do you know how to attach them the airframe?
>
> Steve
I'll be talking to BRS at Oshkosh to find out more details. So far, BRS
tells me that only one guy was working on such a setup. So, we'll see
what they have to say.
Thanks,
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
I completed my stab today!!!! Now my entire tail section is done. On to the
outboard wings.
This actually feels great!
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798 - Starting OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
Just a thought but we could all probably learn to write with our left hands
quicker than undertaking major control mods :-).
I recall a string, perhaps a year ago, discussing a design for dual control
sticks and I think there was a photo of one such modification in the Zenair
builders section of their website.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
----------
> Don and I know one builder putting pilot controls on the right. Does
anyone
> else see this as a viable solution to the issue being discussed here? I
am
> also considering this but am undecided at this point. Any input would be
> appreciated. I know it might seem easy, but when flying through and
around
> the Class B airspace in Phoenix it can very taxing to try and right
> instructions left handed while trying to maintian tight altitude and
heading
> instructions flying over a moutainous valley in the summer. Even the
tightest
> trimmed airplane bounces around in those conditions.
>
> Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Controls: dual |
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls...
Send reply to: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Just a thought but we could all probably learn to write with our left hands
> quicker than undertaking major control mods :-).
>
> I recall a string, perhaps a year ago, discussing a design for dual control
> sticks and I think there was a photo of one such modification in the Zenair
> builders section of their website.
>
> Regards,
> Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
Craig Cousins has pictures of two suchs systems in his site.
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins/dual.htm
One would think this kind of mod would be in the public domain by now, given the
interest
of builders.
Carlos Sa
Montreal, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | rudder construction |
Hi you all. G'day from the land of black snakes,flies and sand.
(that's Australia ). Unpacked the kit and spent 7.5 hours on the inventory
and was satisfied it was all there.
Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together. I
have taken your advise on board and "not" attached the upper bearing
brackets until the rudder is mated with the body of the plane, nor have I
permanently attached the lower bracket in case the angle needs to be
adjusted. I recall someone having trouble fitting the rear white light,
Zenith have supplied me with a neat little composite fairing in the
nav/strobe kit that looks great when attached to the upper tip of the
trailing edge. This is going to be a very enjoyable project but
unfortunately work beckons for the next few nights (have to make money for
big boy's toys). Especially for Bernie Gunn, "how ya goin mate ! I am in the
outback of New South Wales where the yearly temp. varies between 25F to 106F
and struth the mozzies have landing lights"
Barry Mayne ( rudder almost finished)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Repairman Certificate |
<<
Dear Bill: When you get that Repairman's Certificate, you can do
anything to the airplane and engine you want to. When the FAA Inspector
hands you the Airworthiness Certificate for the airplane and a
Repairmans's Certificate for you, he doesn't want to see you again. You
have to carry the ball. This is exactly as it should be and the way you
want it. Tell your friends to go for a cool swim in the lake. All the
best, Norm Petersen, EAA Info. Serv.
Looks like we can maintain the airframe and engine with a repairman
certificate.
>>
That's a good review. I reviewed the regs and it alluded to the fact that we
who have the repairman's certificate can do repairs and maintenance on the
whole plane. Works for a good-it-yourselfer type guy like myself. Thanks for
the review...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
>Where do you run the wing tank fuel lines. Do you install a
>left-right-off valve and where.
>Where do you install the gascolator. Is the fuelpump installed in the
>baggage comp. Any help would be appreciated.
>Chuck
My fuel lines run through 5/8" holes in the center wing ribs, behind and
close to the spar web. The fuel lines themselves are protected by loom
tubes (made of hard plastic) whose valleys fit the 5/8" holes. I applied
a dab of silicone inside the valleys of the loom tube where they come in
contact with the 5/8" rib holes. The gascolator is installed behind the
spar web under the seat panel, close to the right side and not directly
in front of the 6V??-? front pickup angle. A third fuel line is routed
from the gascolator through the spar web. I am not yet finished with the
forward fuselage but I may install the fuel pump on the inboard nose rib.
I installed small L-angle cut-offs in three or four places along the spar
web directly under the seat panel and anchored the fuel line from the
left wing with tie-raps thru 1/8" holes (one hole for each cut-off, close
to the bend tangent so the fuel line rests on the flat part of the angle).
I am waiting for my pictures and am planning to submit photos of this
setup to Zenair for possible inclusion in their photo gallery.
I have no on-off switch installed for the wing tanks. I plan to use the
wing tanks only for long cross-country trips where I can go somewhere and
have enough auto fuel to get back. Most of my local flying will be done
with the wing tanks empty.
I hope this helps. I can think of no better way to keep the lines straight
going into the gascolator at it's lowest point and directly out from behind
the center wing spar thru the web and neatly going along the right side up to
the main tank. No matter how you do it short of routing the fuel lines below
the spar and outside the bottom skin (ugh!) you can't avoid making a 5/8" hole
through the spar web anywhere, except through the lightening holes (it would
look kind of awkward without sharp bends along the web and up the inside
fuselage to the main tank). I am sure someone on the list has a better
routing
method who have not yet responded to a similar thread I started some time ago.
Dick (riveted on the floor, heel support and the bolted the firewall).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rudder construction |
<< Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together. I
have taken your advise on board and "not" attached the upper bearing
brackets until the rudder is mated with the body of the plane, nor have I
permanently attached the lower bracket in case the angle needs to be
adjusted. I recall someone having trouble fitting the rear white light,
Zenith have supplied me with a neat little composite fairing in the
nav/strobe kit that looks great when attached to the upper tip of the
trailing edge. This is going to be a very enjoyable project but
unfortunately work beckons for the next few nights (have to make money for
big boy's toys). Especially for Bernie Gunn, "how ya goin mate ! I am in the
outback of New South Wales where the yearly temp. varies between 25F to 106F
and struth the mozzies have landing lights"
>>
Way to go, Barry!
Yes, it's a good idea to wait on installing the upper barckets until you are
ready to mount the rudder. Fortunately for me, I put on the uper brackets at
precisely the measurment given in the plans, but it was a tight fit just a
tad. Can see how if I raised it just a millimeter I might have a problem.
Have fun with your kit!
Dick (601-HDS), working on the front fuselage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder construction |
>
>Hi you all. G'day from the land of black snakes,flies and sand.
>(that's Australia ). Unpacked the kit and spent 7.5 hours on the inventory
>and was satisfied it was all there.
>Began work on the rudder and was amazed how quickly it all went together.
>Barry Mayne ( rudder almost finished)
+++++ Welcome to the group Barry, we'll be looking forward to hearing more
from you.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes.... |
>
I've been following the thread about "how do you twiddle the radio knobs
> when you're flying with the same hand". It's a good thing the Zodiac
> is so stable, so that's not such a big deal.
> I do continue to be amazed at the "primitiveness" of radios for aviation.
I'm
> a ham radio operator and let me tell you, the choices for other radio
users are
> much more diverse and imaginative.
James
I could not agree more. Wait till you try them as a
communication medium. A lot of old Cessnas etc are flying with twenty or
thirty year-old radio, much static, QRM and squawks. A mobile phone by
comparison comes in loud and clear. I rang an instructor I know and after
some conversation said "Whats the hum in the background?" and he replied
"Engine, I'm 5000ft up!" I mentioned this to a CAA man saying how come
reception on a mobile is about ten times better than
a standard radio and he said "I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you
didn't say that!" (Mobiles are not supposed to be used from aircraft as
the added range may mean interference with other callers.)
There is nothing wrong with having your radio in the centre of the
panel, you can program in about ten channels and just punch a button. No
trouble to reach over and fly with left hand. I often just lay my right
wrist in the "Y", a bit more comfortable. My KY 57A being about 11 in deep
has to be angled down about 15-20 deg.
Bernieg
________________________________________________________________________________
Toney...you missed the period between Jim and Weston. It should be
Jim.Weston@delta-air.com. These computers are picky that way.
Jim
> ----------
> From: TWhiteh465(at)aol.com[SMTP:TWhiteh465(at)aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 11:11 PM
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls...
>
>
> Jim weston unable to send u e-mail at jimweston@delta-air .com please
> give
> good e-mail address Toney Whitehead email address
> twhiteh465(at)aol.com.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Verse 2 - Revisited |
Well, it's Monday morning (Houston time) and our intrepid Lothario has
actually showed his (albeit red) face in the office. He knew he would
have to be a man and face the music sooner or later, so he decided to
get it over early and showed up here by 7:00 a.m. (Our office gets an
early start every day -- most folks from Operations are here by 6 each
day).
He said he was going to get it over with the guys and then get out of
here before the women start showing up, but he hung around too long and
the women have cornered him. Now, he truly is dead meat.
Turns out the young lady who "borrowed" his truck returned it about
10:30 a.m. that Thursday morning. He found his (empty) wallet under the
bed with it's contents "strewn" across the floor.
He says he thinks it was a combination of "drunk, tired & a cute little
honey" that did him in. He's sworn that the "drunk" part will be taken
out of the equation next time. We'll wait and see.
See yall at Oshkosh.
Tony Gunn, Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to
be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL ...
OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm
heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away...
Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
>I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to
>be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL
...
>OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm
>heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away...
>Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS.
>Fred
Fred,
I would love to warn you against this upgrade want / need. It always amazing
me how far most of us have come. First getting our ticket and then building
a plane, etc. etc. Now it isn't good enough to be building a plane, we must
have the "right version". I shouldn't complain since it has fueled my
business (computer sales, system networking, and consultanting). Everyone
always has to have the latest. Change is good for business.
For me, at this moment, just happy to have what appears to be two wings that
are true without twist.
If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the
outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't necessary
to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it
anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod?
Hope to see fellow Zodiac builders at Oshkosh. Leave on Thursday.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
BTW, I have modified the picture layout on my website that chronices my
601HDS project. Hopefully this will allow fellow builders to go straight to
areas of interest and not have to wait for all those thumbnails to load. Up
to this point I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most
systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would
provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts?
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Ferguson" <pflyer(at)ibm.net> |
>If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the
>outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't
necessary
>to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it
>anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod?
>
>Hope to see fellow Zodiac builders at Oshkosh. Leave on Thursday.
>
>Don Honabach
>Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
>
Don-
I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but it
did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of
the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. Heres a picture of
it........
http://www.city-guide.com/baron/images/zodiac44.jpg
Peter Ferguson
601HDS Tail and Wings done
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
> I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but it
>did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of
>the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. Heres a picture of
>it........
>
>http://www.city-guide.com/baron/images/zodiac44.jpg
++++ Peter, I tried repeatedly to look at the address of the site as
written above, but kept getting messages that it couldn't open it. Got
another door to get there? Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most
>systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would
>provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts?
>
>http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
+++++ Went back to your web site and took a fresh look. Sure have some great
pictures posted. I've got a question... I brought up the front view of the
JPX engine picture. It's too big to fit the screen and need to move it back
and forth to see it all, but my question is this... when I ask for a print,
I only get the left side of the picture, and a tiny 3/4" strip at the top on
a second page. Is there a way to print the entire picture on shots like this?
I'm leaving for Oshkosh in a couple of hours, see you "Builders" at the
Zenith tent at 10:00 as best I can Wed - Saturday. Fred
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
>+++++ Went back to your web site and took a fresh look. Sure have some
great
>pictures posted. I've got a question... I brought up the front view of the
>JPX engine picture. It's too big to fit the screen and need to move it
back
>and forth to see it all, but my question is this... when I ask for a print,
>I only get the left side of the picture, and a tiny 3/4" strip at the top
on
>a second page. Is there a way to print the entire picture on shots like
this?
The easiest way to print "large" graphics correctly on just one piece of
paper is to get a good graphics display or editing program. Most of these
have a FIT TO PAGE option that will size the graphic so it fits properly on
one page. If you have a recent version of Microsoft Word, it should work as
well but may be a bit awkard to use with graphic images.
Also, some print drivers have built-in FIT TO PAGE options, but this is not
very common.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Tail Section Done; Working on Outboard Wings
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
Don,
I just started my project a couple of weeks ago, when my kit arrived to
Amsterdam, in The Netherlands.
I wanted to tell you that your site, as well as Bruce Bockiu's and this forum
help me in deciding to build my own Zodiac.
The size of the pics is excellent to get the level of detail I look for when I
encounter my doubts. I know that most of the passive readers of this forum
admire it (at least in my area). I just wanted to encourage you to keep on
going, and tell you that, at least this absolute neophyte to amateur building,
looks into your chronicles often, when he needs some confirmation on the
progress of his toy...
Excellent site!
Godo Barrenechea
601 HD
Amsterdam
> BTW, I have modified the picture layout on my website that chronices my
> 601HDS project. Hopefully this will allow fellow builders to go straight to
> areas of interest and not have to wait for all those thumbnails to load. Up
> to this point I have not put up 1280x1024 pictures for fear that most
> systems wouldn't be able to properly view them. However, since this would
> provide great detail I was thinking it would be nice. Any thoughts?
.......................................................................
Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 7/28/98 1:14:05 PM, fhulen(at)primenet.com writes:
<>
Me Too..........
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net> |
All right I'll bite what is this 601 XL ???????
...Tom Decker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
General Interest:
I have just been informed that Zenith has a Jabiru 3300 (six) in some
plane their
working on. And that plane might be at Oshkosh, could this be the 601XL
????
It also seems that the Jabiru 3300 will be introduced at the show. There
are some pictures of the engine on( www.watsonflight.ca ),look under
Engine Services.
See you at Oshkosh
Robin Gould
601HD,San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
Just how do you flush/tack rivet anyway?
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Ferguson <pflyer(at)ibm.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL ???
>
> I took the time to flush rivet my DZUS. I think it turned out great, but
it
>did take some extra time. As I think back at it, I don't think the heads of
>the rivets stick up enough to interfere with the hatch. >Peter Ferguson
>601HDS Tail and Wings done
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
do you flush/tack rivet anyway?
John,
A flush / tack rivet is one where the head of the rivet is flush with the
material. When building the wings, there are two pieces of aluminum that
overlap. Since each piece must be attached seperately, the lower sheet is
tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without warpage.
Don Honabach
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
John Karnes wrote:
>
> Just how do you flush/tack rivet anyway?
>
You could use the A4's or A5's with a flat nosepiece (unmodified), on your rivet
gun. It's important that you "dimple" the metal first to allow the rivet to sit
flush. I don't recommend countersinking anything thinner than .032, or maybe 025,
though in this application, strength isn't a biggie.
enjoy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | 601XL Don't Exist? |
Hey guys, I don't think a "601XL" exists. I'm aware of:
- CH 601 HD/S (most of us build this)
- STOL CH 701 (the rest of us build this)
- Gemini 620 (twin engined)
- STOL CH 801 (New 4-seat version of the 701)
and then of course the production planes (CH2000) and the others that LIVE
ON such as the CH 200, CH300 and the tiny little twin-engine Cricket.
JKB
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 7/28/98 4:45:46 PM, karnes(at)zoomnet.net writes:
<>
To tack rivet first do a normal rivet line with whichever hole size is
appropriate. 40's (A-4) on the spar of the wings. Then, with a counter sink
tool carefully enlarge both the hole in the skin and the hole in the spar
underneath. The idea is that when you use a flat rivet head the rivet will
flatten out (instead of dome) and hold the skin to the spar just like a cleco
only permanent. Use a flat rivet head, I found that Zneair's suggestions for
a washer didn't work. It is a little tricky to get it right, but once you do
a few it becomes very easy. If you make one a little big, don't worry you
can always go up to an A-5.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jason Zwyers" <jason.zwyers(at)telops.gte.com> |
Most of you have never seen my name but some of the first users of this
group may remember. I used to post frequently but with a change in jobs,
a purchase of a farm (to land my CH-601HD to be) etc. I haven't been very
active. BTW, still working on the left wing. The right wing, aleron,
stabilizer, elevator, and rudder are "still" done. (When I list each
individual assembly it makes me feel like I have more done!!!)
Wanted to add my two cents on the DZUS fastener flush riveting issue. To
prevent deforming the baggage locker lid I cut some washers out of an old
inner tube. I bought two punch type hole punches. One slightly larger
then the head of the DZUS fastener and on just smaller then the barrel
which has the quarter turn slot however larger then its shank. After
cutting them out insert the DZUS through the hole in the baggage lid then
slip the washer over the fastener. With the washer sandwiched between the
lid and wing skin the lid is very secure and there is no deformation
around the head of fastener nor on the lip running around the lid. They
also help hold the DZUS in place when the lid is open and keeps them from
rattling around or falling out.
If anyone is interested I can get a picture scanned. Or if anyone would
like some of these "homemade inner tube washers" I will be happy to make
them until the inner tube runs out.
Jason Zwyers
314-332-7629
314-332-7447 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
>
>>I was looking over the events for Oshkosh and I see that Chris is going to
>>be speaking about "New Zenair designs" from Zenith and mentions a 601 XL
>...
>>OH, OH, just when I'm deep into building the HDS.... What is the XL? I'm
>>heading up to Oshkosh tomorrow, I'll for sure look into THAT right away...
>>Good grief, hope what ever this is can be upgraded to from the HDS.
>>Fred
>
The XL is about the same as the HDS... in terms of speed just a bit faster.
It uses the slotted assembly system, which allows the wings to be assembled
in about 4 hours, then the skin is slid inside the new "aerogroove"
fittings, and bolted down in four spots. Plus some velcro.
Makes the whole airplane about a 13 or 14 hour project.
Hope I got this right? Probably just wishful thing!
George Sears
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
Hi
Can anyone help with this?
I'm making a fibreglass cooling shroud , and don't know what to use as
a
release agent on the mould. The mould is made of extruded polystyrene that
I'll paint with epoxy resin- then a release agent, then the layup. Any ideas?
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
Mike Slaughter wrote:
>
> Hi
> Can anyone help with this?
> I'm making a fibreglass cooling shroud , and don't know what to use as
a
> release agent on the mould. The mould is made of extruded polystyrene that
> I'll paint with epoxy resin- then a release agent, then the layup. Any ideas?
> Cheers, Mike
Hi Mike,
I've had good success w/ floor wax, making some very pretty wheel pants. I've
also
used the spray on stuff made specifically for the job, and it's ok too. I like
the
floor wax much better though.
James Neely,
Captain, Essex Zenair Force I (sometimes referred to as the Yellow Peril)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net>
HI Mike,
>I've had good success w/ floor wax, making some very pretty wheel pants.
I've also
>used the spray on stuff made specifically for the job, and it's ok too. I
like the
>floor wax much better though.
>James Neely,
>Captain, Essex Zenair Force I (sometimes referred to as the Yellow Peril)
>
>Thanks Captain James,
You can probably help me out some more.
My buddy who knows all about fibreglassing has gone to
Oshkosh,(to check out the XL) so I'm on my own. He recommends painting
epoxy resin over the styrofoam mould, then the release agent, then the
layup. Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the release
agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is
it so you can get a smoother internal surface?
Cheers, Mike
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca> |
I have about 10 hours in rented 601's and found the stick position to be a
bit of a pain when you need to write stuff. For our own plane, I have been
thinking of some sort of extension to the left hand arm of the standard "Y"
stick...this would give easy left hand control without being such a major
mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would have to swing out
of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have any comments or
suggestions?
BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading for a few months. This is
a great group and with lot's of good info and helpful, civil folks. A
belated but hardy thanks is in order for all your posts so far. I am the
middle partner in a father/son/grandson team building a 601HD in Newmarket,
Ontario, Canada. So far we have both outboard wings and rudder
done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered.
Happy building!
Chris Atkinson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net> <3.0.1.32.19980728232531.006dcc08(at)mail.interhop.net>
Mike Slaughter wrote:
,.. Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the release
> agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is
> it so you can get a smoother internal surface?
Cheers, Mike
Mike: One possible reason
(Next statment assumes that you are using polyester resin for the
layup)The main reason that you do not put Polyester resin on styrofoam
is that the resin melts the foam.The epoxy resin will not effect the
foam,there by protecting it from the layup materials.
Robin G.
601HD,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Don Honabach wrote:
> A flush / tack rivet is one where the head of the rivet is flush with the
> material. When building the wings, there are two pieces of aluminum that
> overlap. Since each piece must be attached seperately, the lower sheet is
> tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without warpage.
Why "MUST" be attached separately ???
On the 701, the manual says that the rear skins (upper and lower) MUST be
first flush-riveted on the spar extrusions, then the nose skin normal-riveted above.
I riveted both skins on the extrusion with one single normal rivet, with less
trouble, no warpage, and probably the same final strength and stiffness.
Tack-riveting a 0.4mm alum sheet needs more skill than I have to be correctly
and safely done.
Claude.
701 being sanded for painting (f...g job).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
<3.0.1.32.19980728211746.006dbcd0(at)interhop.net> <3.0.1.32.19980728232531.006dcc08(at)mail.interhop.net>
Mike Slaughter wrote: Why not the layup directly on the styrofoam (with the
release
> agent), thus saving the cost of the epoxy resin( which seems expensive)? Is
> it so you can get a smoother internal surface?
> Cheers, Mike
>
Yup, that would do it, but why not use sometnig cheaper, like several coats of
latex paint, (hmmm...is this cheaper?) I assume you want a super smooth inside
surface. If not, don't use a release agent at all, just lay up over the styrofoam
and use gas or laquer thinner to melt the foam out. Or dig it out. the surface
wont be perfectly smooth, but not much, if any, rougher than the styrofoam. It
depends on what you're after.
I hope this helps
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Controls: dual |
Chris Atkinson wrote:
> So far we have both outboard wings and rudder
> done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered.
>
Excellent, Chris!
I'm in the Essex area, been flying my 601HDTDsoob for a year now. Us lefties
don't seem to mind the stick position at all. hehehe! Maybe you could fly the
right seat..hmmm, that's not a totally idiotic suggestion, now I think about it.
It is your plane...fly whatever damn seat you like.
Have you been in contact w/ Mike Fothergill in your area?
Regards,
James Neely
Captain, Essex Zenairforce I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
Plathey wrote:
> 701 being sanded for painting (f...g job).
>
Non sanding primer works great, as long as you use alumiprep and alodine first.8-)
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
A
>I have about 10 hours in rented 601's and found the stick position to be a
>bit of a pain when you need to write stuff. For our own plane, I have been
>thinking of some sort of extension to the left hand arm of the standard "Y"
>stick...this would give easy left hand control without being such a major
>mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would have to swing out
>of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have any comments or
>suggestions?
>
>BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading for a few months. This is
>a great group and with lot's of good info and helpful, civil folks. A
>belated but hardy thanks is in order for all your posts so far. I am the
>middle partner in a father/son/grandson team building a 601HD in Newmarket,
>Ontario, Canada. So far we have both outboard wings and rudder
>done...stabilizer is in progress and balance of kit has been ordered.
>
>Happy building!
>
>Chris Atkinson
>>
Hi Chris,
Come on over to Baldwin Airport-about 20 mins from Newmarket- and check
out a couple of airplanes. My flying buddy( Mike Fothergill) and myself
have our 2 601HDS' parked there. A trike (mine) and a taildragger. There's
is also another 601 parked at Oshawa (owned by Dave Austin). All three have
the same paint scheme so we can pretend we're an aerobatic team. This
weekend is not a good idea- Mike is at Oshkosh (with Dave), I'm best man at
a wedding, and there's an International Skydiving event going on all week
at Baldwin.
Give me a call at 905 478 8477 .
To this group, thanks for the response to my fibreglassing
questions-you've saved me time and money.
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
>> tack riveted first to allow the upper sheet to lay on top without
warpage.
>
>Why "MUST" be attached separately ???
For my particular project is was necessary to first tack rivet the rear
skins to keep the spars straight. My spars that were supplied by ZAC had
bowed by almost an 3/4 inch at the ends. I'm sure I could of made a jig of
some sort to hold the spar straight and do both skins (rear and front), but
that was more difficult than just clamping that skin to the spar and making
it straight and then drilling. Not to mention that it's hard enough to
install one skin properly, installing two at the same time makes my head
hurt.
As a side note, this is also how ZAC suggests you do the skinning process in
their PDF downloadable instructions.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ 601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com> |
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953561(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com>
I recently saw an ad for Zenith that listed the 601HD, 701, 801
and 601XL....no mention of the 601HDS. The 601XL had listed as an
engine option the new Jabiru 3300. To those lucky enough to go to
OSH, please post what you find out about the Jabiru and JPX engine's
for the 601HDS. I can't complain, at least I made Sun n Fun.
Roger Kilby
N98RK - 601HDS - working on center wing....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
Roger,
I second your motion. The Jabiru 6 cylinder and the JPX 90 are at the top of
my engine wish list at this time. Dying to hear about the performance of the
Jabiru on the 601. Now if we can just get Philippe to sweet talk JPX into
getting a 90 to Chris for evaluation, we would have good info from Chris to
make the final decision.
As for the right/left controversy, I'm seriously thinking of setting up my
Zodiac for right seat flying. Don't think I could read the scribbling from my
left hand!!
For all the fellow builders making the pilgrimage to Mecca, have a safe trip.
Cliff Martin 601HDS #6-3694
Still in a holding pattern
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
>Roger,
>
>I second your motion. The Jabiru 6 cylinder and the JPX 90 are at the top
of
>my engine wish list at this time. Dying to hear about the performance of
the
>Jabiru on the 601. Now if we can just get Philippe to sweet talk JPX into
>getting a 90 to Chris for evaluation, we would have good info from Chris to
>make the final decision.
I've committed to Phil for the JPX 90 engine. I'm hoping to have my HDS
flying by the 1st quater of 1999.
Will be happy to report performance figures and general tid bits.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca> |
Thanks for the warm welcome, James. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting
Mike yet but maybe will soon. Thanks for your right-seat idea too...like I
always say, "I'd give me right arm to be ambidextrous" ;~) Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: James Neely [SMTP:asp(at)jet2.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 6:50 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Controls: dual
I'm in the Essex area, been flying my 601HDTDsoob for a year now. Us
lefties
don't seem to mind the stick position at all. hehehe! Maybe you could fly
the right seat..hmmm, that's not a totally idiotic suggestion, now I think
about it. It is your plane...fly whatever damn seat you like.
Have you been in contact w/ Mike Fothergill in your area?
Regards,
James Neely
Captain, Essex Zenairforce I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com> |
"Chris Atkinson" Wrote:
...this would give easy left hand control without
| being such a major
| mod as dualing the whole stick system....'course it would
| have to swing out
| of the way somehow for pilot ingress/egress. Anyone have
| any comments or
| suggestions?
Chris,
I considered building a KR2 before starting my 601. That design uses a
central torque tube like the 601, but has two between-the-leg sticks on the
ends a low sitting horizontal tube which attaches to the torque tube. Seems
crude for dual control, but it is simple and I guess it works! I have
wondered if this system might work in the 601.
Paul Perry
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca> |
Thanks Mike...I'd love to come see the plans! Baldwin is prime contender
for a future base for us too. I'll e-mail you direct to tee something up.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Slaughter [SMTP:mslaughter(at)interhop.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 8:53 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Controls: dual
Hi Chris,
Come on over to Baldwin Airport-about 20 mins from Newmarket- and check
out a couple of airplanes. My flying buddy( Mike Fothergill) and myself
have our 2 601HDS' parked there. A trike (mine) and a taildragger. There's
is also another 601 parked at Oshawa (owned by Dave Austin). All three have
the same paint scheme so we can pretend we're an aerobatic team. This
weekend is not a good idea- Mike is at Oshkosh (with Dave), I'm best man at
a wedding, and there's an International Skydiving event going on all week
at Baldwin.
Give me a call at 905 478 8477 .
To this group, thanks for the response to my fibreglassing
questions-you've saved me time and money.
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
> like I
> always say, "I'd give me right arm to be ambidextrous" ;~) Chris
That can be arranged ! ;o)
Sorry, sorry, but I couldn't resist .
Carlos
Montreal, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
James Neely wrote:
> > 701 being sanded for painting (f...g job).
>
> Non sanding primer works great, as long as you use alumiprep and alodine first.8-)
> James
I used zinc chromate. But that day, ants in the garage roof did housekeeping,
the wind decided to blow like never, and mosquitos came for tasting the chromate.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hbruijns(at)swbi.net (Harry Bruijns) |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List-request |
(un)subscribe
510-606-1001)
>
>
>Listers,
>
>After many months of waiting, I will be at long last upgrading my Internet
>connectivity! Depending on the condition of my line, I could be getting
>as high as a 1.1Mb dedicated connection. At the same time, I will be moving
>all of the Matronics web pages, the RV and Zenith List web pages, and the
>Matronics FTP server over to a new and much faster server. All of the current
>hostnames will remain the same; however, the IP subnet will change and a
>DNS update will occur. After a DNS update, about 80% of the world will
>be able to communicate right away, with the remaining 20% figuring it out
>over a period of a week or so.
>
>So, what does this all really mean? Starting tomorrow, Wednesday June 10
>well it goes, List messages may or may not be processed, and some messages
>will likely be lost. I would strongly recommend _not_ posting any messages
>and stable, I will post a messages to the Lists indicating that things
>are back online and DNS is at the 80% level. This will likely be late
>Wednesday or probably Thursday.
>
>Note that access to the Matronics Web and FTP sites will also be affected and
>may be unavailable until Thursday as well.
>
>Thank you for your patience during this period of transition. I'm
>confident that the new service will be noticable improvment in performance
>and reliability and since all of the computer systems providing the
>services will now be locally resident, administration should be far
>easier too!
>
>Look for an update soon!
>
>Matt Dralle
>RV and Zenith List Admin.
>
>
>--
>
>Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
>925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
>http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
>
> I have no on-off switch installed for the wing tanks. I plan to use the
> wing tanks only for long cross-country trips where I can go somewhere and
> have enough auto fuel to get back. Most of my local flying will be done
> with the wing tanks empty.
I don't really get this statement.
The gascolator usually
goes on the front of firewall at bottom. A line goes from each wing tank to
the fuel pump. I routed them behind the main spar, so two fuel cocks are
mounted on the front of the spar, one between each person's feet, then
forward to the fuel pump on the right rear of firewall.
So one selects right or left tank, flicks on fuel pump and away she goes.
If both cocks are left on she sucks air from the empty tank.
I doubt you will ever fly with wing tanks empty. At least a couple of
gallons reserve in one tank is mighty comforting to the soul. I went on an
hours flight yeaterday, above scattered to broken cloud with 5 knot
northerly but a lot of low mist and very obscured ground visibility. Was
carrying at least five hours fuel. After 45 min started to look really
socked in with low rain so flew recip course home in bright sun but did not
bother to turn on GPS. Found ground almost invisible in places in low fog
and mist but spiralled down a hole when time back to base had expired, to
find I was 15 miles east of where I ought to have been, wind had swung to
west and gone up to 35 knots, so in an hour had drifted quite a long way.
Weather rep had said "Winds light and variable northerly, going to west
tomorrow" I didn't need the extra gas, but suppose I had flown more than an
hour each way, could have been handy.
As some sage said, "Ain't nothin' so useless as gas not in tank!"
Bernie G. 601 ULA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the
bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib?
I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated!
Andrew SanClemente 601HDS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't know if the rest of you have noticed yet, but Zenith now
has an update on their Internet web site, re: the new 601XL. It is
complete with spec's, performance figures, photos and pricing. Looks
like a nice plane. New wing design, flaps, 100+ hp engine, wing tanks
(no header), and more.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS
McDonough, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601XL Confirmed |
Jim;
Thanks for the confirmation on the XL: I looked at the pages. It's a 601HDS with
a different engine, a modified airfoil, flaps and wing tanks. Thanks to the guys
at Zenith for listening and providing the web update! ZAC has, in my opinion,
the best company web page out there!
Looks like the improvements we've been wanting in the 601 have arrived. Tail
group is the same on this plane. Those of us who have only done the empennage
and not bought the whole kit might be able to switch.
Seems to me that you might could get similar performance out of your 601HDS with
the new Rotax, Subaru or Jabiru engines?
I don't mean to sound like sour grapes: I plan to continue with the HDS without
any regrets at all. With the flexibility we have in building the HDS, we can
get a very close approximation of the XL without the airfoil benefits.
JKB
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
ZAC added a picture of the prototype this afternoon.
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/index.html
Carlos
Montreal, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft.
Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can
purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform
to complete my HDS?
You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy only
one if that is possible.
Regards,
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
tail group finished - working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrench |
Bill:
I have a torque wrench that runs from 25 to 250 inch pounds. This covers
everything in the airframe construction. You will only need a larger one
(foot pound vs inch pound) if you get into major engine work.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
----------
> This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft.
>
> Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can
> purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to
perform
> to complete my HDS?
>
> You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy
only
> one if that is possible.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Morelli - Vermont
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eugene G. Cowie" <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale |
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene G. Cowie <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 7:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: n1gfzr39 <ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: Zenith List
>Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 4:16 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair Zodiac 601 HD For Sale
>
>
>>
>>For Sale;
>>1995 Zodiac CH 601 HD
>>T.T 51 hrs.
>>Rotax 912 / 80 H.P. /E.G.T / C.H.T.
>>G.S.C.Prop
>>VAL 760 Channel Com with Intercom
>>Fly Buddy 800 Loran with North America Data Base
>>Narco AT 150 Transponder with Encoder
>>Narco A.D.F.
>>Full Instruments
>>Alt. Static
>>Cabin Vents
>>Elect. Elevator Trim
>>Elect. Aileron Trim
>>Nav & Strobe Lights
>>D.C. Booster Pump
>>Aux. Wing Fuel Tank with Transfer Pump
>>Completely Upholstered
>>Cabin Air Escape Valve ( adjustable )
>>3 Point Seat Belts
>>Tow Bar
>>Landing Light in Stbd. Wing
>>Disc Brakes
>>Colour Burgundy on White
>>
>>Reason for selling, I would like to build the Gemini, The aircraft must be
>>seen to be appreciated.
>>I will send pictures on request.
>>Asking price $ 39, 500. 00 U.S.
>>
>>Any interested persons please contact,
>>Eugene G. Cowie
>>211 Brookside Drive
>>Kingston N.S. Canada
>>B0P 1R0
>>902 765 2214
>>E-Mail ecowie(at)ns.sympatico.ca
>>
>>Thank you for posting this AD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL |
I don't know about you guys, but that 601XL sure looks sweet!! I especially
like the mod to the canopy, hope it can be adapted to the existing 601HDS.
Be interested to hear what effect the 3300 will have on the 601HDS old speed
wing design. Maybe something between the 125 we hoped for and the 145mph they
say for the XL?
I got to get back on my plane, these new mods are driving me crazy!!!
Cliff Martin #6-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Gates <leogates(at)tooeasy.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrench |
Bill:
I have two torque wrenches. One 20 to 200 Inch/Lbs. The other is 10 to 150
Foot/Lbs.
Bought them from JC Whitney $22 for one and $24 (US) for the other.
Leo Gates
Bill Morelli wrote:
>
> This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft.
>
> Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can
> purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform
> to complete my HDS?
>
> Regards,
> Bill Morelli - Vermont
> HDS - 6-3798
> tail group finished - working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Page 29 of my Construction Manual (Jan. 1995) calls for a 5/16" bolt (AN5).
I don't think the direction matters, but I have all the bolt heads facing
inboard as a convenience for assembly. They are all out of the way from
bodily harm and the head up and forward rule should not apply here.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com>
Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 8:31 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Seat Belts
>
>What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the
>bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib?
>I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated!
>
> Andrew SanClemente 601HDS
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
>900 Chelmsford Street
>Lowell, MA 01851-8207
>Tel: (978) 551-5361
>Fax: (978) 551-5351
>Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
>Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrench |
I have a Torque Wrench with a Vernier type setting handle that "clicks" when
you reach the set torque. The printed range is 30 to 150 inch-pounds, but it
is easy to get from 20 to 160 or more by rotating an extra 360 degrees on
the setting scale. I never needed any other torque wrench on the plane. It
is a "UTICA" brand model TCI-150-RA made in Orangeburg, SC. I got it at a
large tool store in Calgary (House of Tools, I think?). I recall it was
expensive, about $90 CAN. It uses a 1/4" drive, and is a well-made tool.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 5:47 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Torque Wrench
>
>This is to all of you guys that have completed an aircraft.
>
>Is there one size torque wrench (20 - 75 in lbs, or whatever) that I can
>purchase that will cover all of the torquing I will likely need to perform
>to complete my HDS?
>
>You all know how expensive torque wrenches are and I would like to buy only
>one if that is possible.
>
>Regards,
>Bill Morelli - Vermont
>HDS - 6-3798
>tail group finished - working OB wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com |
| Subject: | 601 XL, zinc chromate |
Hi everybody,
I'm going next weekend to Mexico, MO, to pick up my 601 HDS kit - now they come
out with the 601XL. On the other hand I don't like to be the first guy building
the XL (no support like on this list etc.).
My workshop (garage) is already setup, workbench (12 x 4) is built, tools are
completed. The only thing, that I couldn't find was a metric measurement tape.
I checked almost every hardware store here in Delaware. So I called my mother
in Germany - they have metric tapes all over the place - and she will send me
one.
I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this
stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for the
601 HDS?
Thilo Kind
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate |
<< I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get
this
stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for
the >>
A/C Spruce has the stuff but they recommend spraying and not brushing. Good
luck and welcome to the club.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate |
>I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get
this
>stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need
for the
>601 HDS?
>
>Thilo Kind
I purchased 1 quart of zinc chromate from Aircraft Spruce. That should be
more than enough to do the aircraft. I am diluting it with laquer thinner
about 4 parts thinner to 1 part zinc. I then brush it on with a scotch
bright pad. This dilution comes out the same as the wing spars that were
done by ZAC. I am only applying zinc chromate to interior metal to metal
contact points.
Regards,
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798 - Working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL |
>I don't know about you guys, but that 601XL sure looks sweet!! I especially
>like the mod to the canopy, hope it can be adapted to the existing 601HDS.
Just back from Oshkosh...
According to both Chris and Sebastian Heintz the canopy modification on the
XL will be available for the HD(S). It is actually the same canopy with just
a different mount. Chris indicated that the canopy plans would be available
next year for the HD(S) and Sebastian indicated that they would be available
any day. It also is apparently a more difficult install, but the looks of it
are just fantastic.
They did a real nice job of the XL's cockpit panel. Much better than the HDS
they had at the show. They also had a nice built-in aileron servo driven
trim tab. Definitely more elegant than the one hanging off the elevator on
the HDS and XL plans.
Should have pictures on the website (http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac) of
both the XL and HDS that were displayed at Oshkosh in the next few days.
Mostly up close shots for details.
Glad to be back. Hopefully next year I will be able to fly my Zodiac out.
Anybody else wanna fly out in your Zodiac for AirVenture 99? A nice
formation fly by would be a nice touch as well.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Working on outboard wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Just back from seeing 601XL at Oshkosh |
Hi Guys... I'm back after 4 really great days at Oshkosh. Perfect weather
as far as I am concerned, ita was really nice. You guys have been busy
while I was gone, I had 58 messages backed up (including probably about a
dozen not relating to Zenith stuff.) THAT took a while to read....!
Well, the highlight of the show for me was getting to visit with Chris
Heintz for about 45 minutes straight, then off and on short visits on other
days of the show. I attended his seminar on the new things for Zenith and
of course the 601XL was one of them. I'm pretty tired... take that back,
I"M VERY TIRED, but will try to remember as much as possible to pass along.
As it sat on the Zenith site at Oshkosh, and as explained by Chris the
notable changes are: A completely different wing.. thinner, very little
taper form inboard to outboard, looks like the same length at a glance as
the HD wing, and FLAPS... The flaps are at the rear of the center section
only, where we normally see the "no step" trailing edge on the HDS and HD
versions, so the flaps aren't very big. However, Chris said that they
reduce the stall speed about 7 miles per hour. The wings were equipped with
the leading edge tanks and no header tank in the fuselage. The most obvious
change is the forward hinged canopy. Lots more tricky to install (per
Chris), but looks great and make a lot of sense. I think it makes the
machine look more exotic. The seats are laid back about 2" more than the
standard HD or HDS is now (unless you previously arranged to receive the
different parts to modify yours already). Per Chris, the firewall was moved
about 2" farther forward to answer the needs of so many that have mentioned
the desire to have more leg room. Since the longer Jabiru 3300 was up front,
and time didn't allow for a new and longer cowling to be made, they had to
add a metal band extention on to the rear of the cowl to allow it to slip
into the fuse at the firewall and cover the longer engine. I asked Chris a
lot of questions, and I'm trying to recall as many as possible for you...
Chris was very enthusiastic about the new Jabiru 3300 engine since it was
the cleanest and simplest installation he had ever encountered. Per him,
you can receive the engine one day, bolt it to the engine mount, hook up the
electrical wires, throttle cables and fuel lines, and run the engine the
next day. Everybody was blown away at simple and clean the installation
was. As far as performance is concerned, Chris said that he definately does
NOT have the right prop on it now, but said he was getting about 135 mph
when I asked him for actual GPS numbers the way it is. I asked him how much
difference he expeted the new 6 cylinder to be over the original 4 cylinder
and he thought that once you find the right prop, it would be around 12 to
15 mph on the XL. Chris is a fun guy to talk to, and when I asked him what
the XL stood for, he laughed and said he didn't know, it was brought up by
the rest of the group. The XL won't be available for a while, I don't
remember real clearly on that date, but seemingly it was end of the year or
first of next. The HDS will eventually be eliminated.... shucks! I asked
him about applying the XL changes to existing 601's and he said that since
the wing is an entirely different shape it would not be possible to install
XL wings to an existing 601. The canopy and flaps will apply, and he said
that it will be about 2 months before plans are available on those. The
Jabiru 3300 is rated at 120 hp, thus exceeding the power range stated for
the existing 601's of 115 hp, so he is going to look into it and see if
there is enough existing margin already in the 601 design to accept the 3300
as it is, or possible might need some additional bracing of the firewall and
engine mounts. Speaking of engines, I also got to see in person the JPX
engine, mounted on a 601 firewall at their display.... Very, Very, Nice!
Well, that's about all I can remember right now. As I said, I just got home
after a long drive and I'm pooped! If I think of more, I let you know.
On another note, it was good to find a row of Zenith aircraft out there on
the ramp this year. 6 of them, including 601s, 300, and a 600. There may
have been others somewhere else. The Zenith booth was busy every time I
dropped by. And about the BUILDERS DINNER.... WHAT A GOOD TIME AND GOOD
FOOD! They really had a nice crowd, over a hundred easily, and as I said
above, Great Food! I know the Zenith folks will be reading this, so I'll
thank you again for such a nice get-together. It was fun meeting some of you
I hear from on this net.
Well, there you have it Zenith fans.... Zenith update, fresh off the press.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a quote
from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they
quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard liability
coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the first
flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program .
OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and three
part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago).
What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing liability
coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who?
I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco will no
longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines... not
even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru
engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have the
real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Just back from seeing 601XL at Oshkosh |
Fred:
Thanks for the update - next best thing to being there.
Rick Hutchison
Rurak & Associates, Inc.
1350 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Suite 801
Washington, D.C. 20036
Tel: 202-293-7603
Fax: 202-296-2435
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rolf Wittwer" <rolf(at)dove.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Commentary: Radios for Airplanes.... |
----------
James Brigman wrote:
> ICOM and Val-Com have the right idea with their comm radios: very thin
height.
> Terra has their interesting COM and NAV "1/2 brick" radios. However,
their
> depth into the panel are still "aviation standard", something like 12"
deep or
> so, making it more difficult to use these with any size of header tank...
Check out http://www.globalav.com.au/~globalav/products/glmicro.htm for a
small radio. Fits a 2.5 inch hole and is 6.7" long. It is only 4W but can
be 10W with an optional power amplifier.
Rolf Wittwer
"Oz"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com> |
| Subject: | Help....Center wing bottom skin.... |
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D0295356A(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com>
The center wing bottom skin has a row of pilot holes between, and
perpendicular to, the innermost rib. Are these holes for the channel that
supports the rear torque tube bearing? This would mean the holes went at the
trailing edge. Please confirm if I'm on the right track as the Zenith plans
show very little detail....or I'm just missing the picture :)
Thanks........
Roger Kilby
N98RK - 601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | choke and throttle bracket |
Question to all out there that have installed the choke and throttle mounting
bracket for the 601HDS with the Rotax 912 engine.
I made my throttle cable mounting bracket (6E5-2) according to the plan on
page #6A for the nosewheel version. However it appears that the choke bracket
(6E5-3) if installed as per the drawing, will interfer with the front landing
tube. Has anyone else had this problem? Is it ok to raise the choke bracket
up to clear the landing tube or will there be other clearence problems then.
Would like to hear how others installed their brackets.
Jim Olson
Tarpon Springs, FL
601HDS N56BJ
ready to install engine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
Fred Hulen wrote:
>
Fred:
This sounds very unreasonable. On the Ch300, I pay $1,100 anually for
30 K of hull, 1 million libility and 100K on one passenger seat. This
is in Canadian dollars so that would be about 700 US.
I priced AVEMCO several times and was not able to get anywhere near
close the price I get from BAIG through the Canadian Owners and Pilots
Association program.
I haven't heard anything concrete about the non insurance of Sub powered
airplanes. I think that's just a rumour (say it on the Sub list last
year but it was not substantiated.)
Keep shopping around
Cheers
Craig
>
> Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a quote
> from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they
> quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard liability
> coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the first
> flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program .
> OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and three
> part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago).
> What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing liability
> coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who?
>
> I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco will no
> longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines... not
> even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru
> engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have the
> real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Fred...I have full coverage Avemco insurance on my 601HDS with a Stratus
Subaru for $1200 per year U.S.. The plane is insured for $26K and I had
450 personal flying hours at the time of insuring (A little over 500 now
due to flying my 601). I don't know if you are high or low time, but
the number of logged flight hours makes a difference. Also, if you can
get a minimum of 3 hours of flying time in the same type of aircraft (I
did this), before first flight, they will cut the rate some more. I had
no problem insuring my Subaru powered plane. Although I did get the
insurance started just before all of the rumors started flying. The
policy states Subaru engine right on it. I also used the EAA flight
advisor and technical advisor programs and received the discounts and
had first flight coverage. In fact, Avemco sent addendum's with my
policy indicating that I would be covered on the first flight if I had
used the Flight Advisor program. Without the addendum's, I read in the
standard policy that there is a minimum number of hours before coverage
starts, I believe it was 10 hours.
Hope this helps,
Jim Weston
CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru. Now have 54 hours on the plane and
it is lots of fun to fly. My wife even enjoys riding in it. Phew!!!
McDonough, Ga.
>
>
> Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a
> quote
> from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they
> quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard
> liability
> coverage", and $30K hull coverage, including a discount for using the
> first
> flight preparness program and the Technical advisor visit program .
> OUCH...! that's more than twice what I used to pay to cover my 172 and
> three
> part owners liability! (In all fairness, that was about 7 years ago).
> What's the scoop on affordable insurance other than only doing
> liability
> coverage? What are some of you other guys paying, and insured by who?
>
> I also heard at the show (but not directly from Avemco) that Avemco
> will no
> longer insure any "first flight" of ANY Subaru conversion engines...
> not
> even Stratus. Previously I had heard that Stratus was the only Subaru
> engine they would issue first flight coverage on. Do any of you have
> the
> real and complete story on this? Thanks, Fred
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey(at)mindspring.com> |
I am new to the list, so hello all. I have been studying up on the 601 for
a couple of months now and am very impressed. I plan to scratch build for
economic reasons (and because I've never done anything the easy way.) I
downloaded the entire archive list and am currently reading it through, but
I wanted to go ahead and post a question.
I am trying to plan out the powerplant before I go to cutting on aluminum to
avoid "ESS" (engine sticker shock)! I like the 912's but it is a little
pricey for the firewall forward package from Zenith. I know there are alot
of Soob's out there but I know virtually nothing about a Subaru (except
there Japanese...and that typically means well built...) But I am a VW nut
from way back and would really like to keep it aircooled anyway. (KISS
principle) I understand that the 2180's are a little underpowered for the
601 at 70 horseys but has anyone put a Type 4 in a 601??? They are about
40-50 pounds heavier than a type 1 but much stronger. Great Plains aircraft
engines is now offering a type 4 longblock kit (2400CC, I think) That they
are rating at 85 horses takeoff, 78 horseys continous output, and that is
from Steve Bennet one of the most conservative Aero VW builders there is.
Here is a link to check it out...
http://greatplainsas.com/engine.html
Also there is a guy building a KR2S in Birmingham that is using a type 4
with a lot info on a web page about it at....
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html
He is a serious VDub man and knows them frontwards and backwards.
Just wanted to pick the collective brain and hear any opinions on this idea.
Anybody out there ever "been there, done that" ?
Thanks a ton for reading this far...I can be long-winded if I don't watch
it..
Jeremy Casey jrcasey(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey(at)mindspring.com> |
I forgot a P.S. about the powerplant thing...Mark Langford's type 4 page
mentions a prop shaft system for the VW engines by Great Plains. There is a
page about it (and other things ) at...
http://greatplainsas.com/newproducts.html
This would be a super-simple system, that would have to be reliable because
of the sheer simplicity... And if anyone worries about putting your prop on
the end of a shaft (gyroscopic forces???) Look at the Quicksilver
ultralights, they do it with great success and the P-39 Airacobra of WW2 was
mid-engined and had about an 8-foot prop shaft running right thru the
cockpit!!!
Jeremy Casey jrcasey(at)mindspring.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
<<
If I can slip a question in here as well. In the process of building the
outboard HDS wings. The instruction manual indicates that it isn't necessary
to flush / tack rivet the DZUS fasteners. Was thinking about doing it
anyway. Any thoughts on the structure integrity of such a minor mod?
>>
Fred - I did not flush rivet my Dsuz fasteners. The rivet heads in no way
interfere with the locker door. Thought you'd like to know... Now to keep
reading about the 601XL (yes, I did see it at OSH - advertised cruise speed is
145 MPH, canopy hinge is at the front, and there were a few other mods).
Dick (werkin' on the now obsolete 601-HDS model (tell me tain't so))
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flush riveting |
<< only permanent. Use a flat rivet head, I found that Zneair's suggestions
for
a washer didn't work. It is a little tricky to get it right, but once you do
a few it becomes very easy. If you make one a little big, don't worry you
can always go up to an A-5.
>>
Yes, a washer doesn't work - too thin. I use a scrap piece of .125 aluminum,
drill a hole through it so the shank of the rivet fits through, then insert
the rivet into the designated hole and the shank into the riveter. When
holding the riveter on the thick material with a little force, the thick
aluminum "washer" will not warp and makes the rivet head flat when done
riveting. Works everytime for me.
Dick (601-HDS, not XL - don't feel bad)
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
What size/type bolt is used to attach the seatbelts? Which way should the
bolt be facing, I would assume the head should be against the inboard rib?
I can't find anything in any of the plans, help is greatly appreciated!
>>
Andrew:
Look at the parts list that came with your kit and it will list all the
hardware and what each is for. If I remember correctly (my kit is at the
hangar), you use the AN4-7A bolts for the seat belts, and you can get that
info, again, from the parts list.
June 29, 1998 - August 04, 1998
Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-al