Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-im
November 08, 2008 - November 23, 2008
507 Melvin Ave
Racine, WI 53402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Lilja <planes_by_ken(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: T-6 Corrosion Resistance |
Take a look at the metal with a magnifying glass and a bright
flashlight. If there are no pits then it probably is just staining, not
corrosion. Aluminum corrosion products are generally a white powder
that is not too hard to remove. Try cleaning with some Alumiprep 33.
This is what is used to prep for applying Alodine, painting or welding.
The Alumiprep should foam up and bleach the surface to almost white.
Flush with plenty of cold water. Remember to dilute with water as
directed. You don't need to use Alodine afterwards unless you want to.
A natural layer of aluminum oxide will form quickly and seal the surface
back up. Not to open old threads but.... 3M maroon scotchbrite is
aluminum oxide based and is OK on aluminum. Don't use silicon carbide
sandpaper on AL. It can lead to corrosion (per AC43.13 2A) 3M offers
an aluminum oxide wet or dry paper (Imperial) that is no more expensive,
just had to find. I you want to see some impressive corrosion I could
post a image of a Cessna wing mounting block with intergranular
corrosion. Flat out 6061 is much more corrosion resistant than 2024.
It is all we can do to prevent 2024 from corroding. Most single engine
Cessnas prior to the 90's were not zinc chromated unless equipped to
have floats. We have it easy.
Ken Lilja
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Remote compass location |
All-
The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the
compass test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with an AirPath whiskey
compass I picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the remote
compass on the radio tray because the needle deflects 30+ degrees to the
firewall. I think I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat as close to the
cockpit side skin as possible.
Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks why I
don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would always
point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to
answer because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Hi Bill,
Your compass should be adjustable to cancel near magnetic influence to a
lesser degree. My stick would influence the compass in full forward
position, but
I was able to adjust to correct the N S E W compass readings regardless
of where the stick was positioned. Perhaps you might be able to also.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Bill Naumuk wrote:
> All-
> The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the
> compass test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with an AirPath whiskey
> compass I picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the
> remote compass on the radio tray because the needle deflects 30+
> degrees to the firewall. I think I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat
> as close to the cockpit side skin as possible.
> Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks why
> I don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would
> always point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
> HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to
> answer because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
> Bill Naumuk
> Townville, Pa.
> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
> *
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Larry-
That takes care of the whiskey compass, but not the D-100 remote.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
>
> Hi Bill,
> Your compass should be adjustable to cancel near magnetic influence to a
> lesser degree. My stick would influence the compass in full forward
> position, but
> I was able to adjust to correct the N S E W compass readings regardless
> of where the stick was positioned. Perhaps you might be able to also.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> Bill Naumuk wrote:
>> All-
>> The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the
>> compass test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with an AirPath whiskey
>> compass I picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the
>> remote compass on the radio tray because the needle deflects 30+
>> degrees to the firewall. I think I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat
>> as close to the cockpit side skin as possible.
>> Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks why
>> I don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would
>> always point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
>> HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to
>> answer because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
>> Bill Naumuk
>> Townville, Pa.
>> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
>> *
>> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Timing Light Question |
| From: | "leinad" <leinad(at)hughes.net> |
I'm using an INOVA Tach Advance Digital Timing Light and it is acting very eratic.
It's the type that has a lead that clamps around the #1 spark plug wire (induction
lead). So far I haven't been able to look at the timing except at idle.
At idle it looks like it's working OK, showing an advance of a few degrees
and an RPM of 750, but as soon as I rev it up the RPMs jump all over the place
and I loose the timing mark. I'm using Moroso Super Blue plug wires and have
wondered if that's the problem. Perhaps it isn't able to pick the induction
through the shielding in the wire. Any ideas?
Dan Dempsey
601XL /Corvair
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213137#213137
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Latimer" <jlatimer1(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Remote compass location |
Bill,
I haven't tried that yet. I will go out and take my compass and see how it
reacts to the firewall. I'm almost at that step also.
Jerry
HDS 912
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:21 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
All-
The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the compass
test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with an AirPath whiskey compass I
picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the remote compass on the
radio tray because the needle deflects 30+ degrees to the firewall. I think
I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat as close to the cockpit side skin as
possible.
Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks why I
don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would always
point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to answer
because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> |
Any 750 builders or those who have purchased this plane able to visit via t
he telephone? I have a few questions before placing an order...
-
Thanks
-
KH Heide
-
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken" <hror1(at)pld.com> |
I have an electric primer valve. Do I need to put a diode across it to protect
the system from the induced voltage spikes? Also I am using a Sky-Tec starter
on a Lycoming O-235. As you know they can be used in either mode. You can
use the electric solenoid on the starter or you can leave it jumpered and use
a solenoid on the firewall. I'm going the firewall solenoid route so that the
starter cable is only carrying voltage while cranking. Do I need to put a diode
on the starter or just on the firewall solenoid or both?
Thanks in advance
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213187#213187
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Remote compass location |
Gentlemen
-
I am sure you are aware of the film you can wrap around the compass to prev
ent any metal or electrical interference when installing a compass....right
?- Maybe I am missing something here.... please correct me not wanting to
intrude on your conversations..
-
-
KM Heide
-
--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jerry Latimer wrote:
From: Jerry Latimer <jlatimer1(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:42 PM
Bill,
I haven't tried that yet.- I will go out and take my compass and see how
it reacts to the firewall.- I'm almost at that step also.
Jerry
HDS 912
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:21 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
All-
--- The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the c
ompass test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with-an AirPath whiskey com
pass I picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the remote compas
s on the radio tray because the needle-deflects 30+ degrees-to the fire
wall. I think I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat as close to the cockpit s
ide skin as possible.
--- Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks wh
y I don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would always
point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
--- HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to
answer because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Afterfxllc(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Before I put the remote compass where I did I spoke to dynon about it and he
said it isn't as sensitive as most think and the fact that I placed 2 of them
within 12 inches of the fire wall and haven't had any problems quantify's
that. If I had had problems with them I certainly wouldn't be building my 3rd
and 4th panel that way.
Jeff
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Jerry-
My workspace is really crowded, so I don't know how much deviation
I'm getting from things like my furnace, etc. I really hope I can get by
with behind the pilot seat, because that would be the easiest other than
the radio tray. THAT I know isn't viable. Do you have the OEM galvanized
firewall? I actually increased the thickness of mine.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Latimer
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Bill,
I haven't tried that yet. I will go out and take my compass and see
how it reacts to the firewall. I'm almost at that step also.
Jerry
HDS 912
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:21 AM
To: zenith list
Subject: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
All-
The stock firewall on an HDS is galvanized and I just tried the
compass test. Not with a Wal-Mart cheapie, but with an AirPath whiskey
compass I picked up from Barnstormers. I know I can't locate the remote
compass on the radio tray because the needle deflects 30+ degrees to the
firewall. I think I'm OK with aft of the pilot's seat as close to the
cockpit side skin as possible.
Of course, there is an upside to all this. If an examiner asks why
I don't have a whiskey compass, I can truthfully say that it would
always point to the firewall, and I already know where that is.
HDS people- how did you deal with this?? Larry, you don't have to
answer because I know you made your firewall out of stainless.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jlatimer1(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
---- Bill Naumuk wrote:
> Jerry-
> My workspace is really crowded, so I don't know how much deviation I'm getting
from things like my furnace, etc. I really hope I can get by with behind
the pilot seat, because that would be the easiest other than the radio tray.
THAT I know isn't viable. Do you have the OEM galvanized firewall? I actually
increased the thickness of mine.
> Bill
>
I just went outside and placed by compass next to the firewall. As I moved it
away from the firewall I got about a 15 degree deviation. There was no more deviation
by the time I got the compass on the firewall side of the instrument
panel. The compass actually stopped deviating about half way between the firewall
and the instrument panel.
I do have the origanal galvanized firewall. I've also been using an magnetic trouble
light attached to firewall while working on the motor wiring. I won't
do that anymore.
Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
Check out Aircraft Spruce item 11-05727. This is the Transorb used by MGL
electronics to protect the avionics bus from transient voltages. You might also
put diodes across the coils of your master and starter solenoid (cathode
(banded end) to +, anode to ground). For more information on spike protection
google
"Transorb".
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:07:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hror1(at)pld.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken"
I have an electric primer valve. Do I need to put a diode across it to
protect the system from the induced voltage spikes? Also I am using a Sky-Tec
starter on a Lycoming O-235. As you know they can be used in either mode.
You can use the electric solenoid on the starter or you can leave it jumpered
and use a solenoid on the firewall. I'm going the firewall solenoid route so
that the starter cable is only carrying voltage while cranking. Do I need
to put a diode on the starter or just on the firewall solenoid or both?
Thanks in advance
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213187#213187
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
Just did some checking on part numbers. MGL and Aircraft Spruce get $6.00
for a transorb. You can obtain the same part from Mouser Electronics for less
than a dollar. Search P/N 1.5KE33 or IN6284A.
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:07:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hror1(at)pld.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken"
I have an electric primer valve. Do I need to put a diode across it to
protect the system from the induced voltage spikes? Also I am using a Sky-Tec
starter on a Lycoming O-235. As you know they can be used in either mode.
You can use the electric solenoid on the starter or you can leave it jumpered
and use a solenoid on the firewall. I'm going the firewall solenoid route so
that the starter cable is only carrying voltage while cranking. Do I need
to put a diode on the starter or just on the firewall solenoid or both?
Thanks in advance
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213187#213187
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of
my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment
tool as your typical magazine subscription!
Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is
fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Re: 601XL - Does anyone know the actual amperage draw for 1) the old style flap
motor, 2) landing and taxi lights and 3) position lights.
Thanks in advance
Jay in Dallas
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ashcraft, Keith - AES" <Keith.Ashcraft(at)itt.com> |
| Subject: | Zenith builders/flyers in the Portland area |
All,
I will be TDY in the Portland area around the last 2-weeks in November. Any
flyers/builders in the area that would like to get together?
(any model, 601, 701, 801, etc...)
contact me offline
Thanks,
Keith
http://picasaweb.google.com/ch701builder
CH701 -- scratch
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
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s transmitted by this e-mail.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Ray" <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
I blew the fuse to the flap motor on the maiden flight. It was a 7A now
it is a 15 amp without any problem. The current draw increases under
flight loads. The 7 worked on the ground fine.
The light circuits draw about 3 amps each. I fused them at 7.
As long as you don't use a fuse larger than the wire size that supplies
the device can handle, it will not be a problem.
Fuel Pump 1.6 A, Ignition 3 A @ 3000 rpm
Gary Ray 601XL 85 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com ; zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Amperage draw
Re: 601XL - Does anyone know the actual amperage draw for 1) the old
style flap motor, 2) landing and taxi lights and 3) position lights.
Thanks in advance
Jay in Dallas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at
http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
I reported these numbers to the list in April 2007. This was for the
old-style motor with the exposed limit switches:
"I measured the current drawn by the flap motor with and without a load.
Unloaded it draws about 4 amps. Lifting a 34 pound bucket of sand it draws
about 4.5 amps."
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Ray
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Amperage draw
I blew the fuse to the flap motor on the maiden flight. It was a 7A now it
is a 15 amp without any problem. The current draw increases under flight
loads. The 7 worked on the ground fine.
The light circuits draw about 3 amps each. I fused them at 7.
As long as you don't use a fuse larger than the wire size that supplies the
device can handle, it will not be a problem.
Fuel Pump 1.6 A, Ignition 3 A @ 3000 rpm
Gary Ray 601XL 85 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Amperage draw
Re: 601XL - Does anyone know the actual amperage draw for 1) the old style
flap motor, 2) landing and taxi lights and 3) position lights.
Thanks in advance
Jay in Dallas
_____
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
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://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Ray" <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
Actually my fuse blew the moment that I touched the switch so in my case
I could not have hit a stop as the flaps did not deploy. At the time
(first flight) I did not have it connected in series with an amperage
meter. The plane landed fine without any flaps. I was not concerned. I
found no problems with the wiring. I still have not measured the actual
amperage during flap deployment. The flaps have functioned well during
the last several hundred smoke tests. (turn it on and see where it
smokes)
Gary Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
Motor circuits often have surge currents on start up that are more
than double the steady state running current of the motor. The surge
current will even be larger than the locked rotor current. The surge
current is impossible to measure with a digital meter and even with an
analog meter, the surge may peak out faster than the needle can
follow. You need a device designed to measure these short duration
peaks to get an accurate reading. If you fuse for the steady state
current, these surges will eventually blow a normal fuse. The main
purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire supplying the circuit so
don't worry that the fuse value is larger than the current draw of the
circuit as long as it's not too large for the wire. Landing lights
also have surge currents on start up because the filament resistance
increases as it heats up, so a landing light circuit may need a larger
fuse than you suspect.
On Nov 10, 2008, at 2:44 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Craig, Thanks, that is just what I needed.
>
> I wonder why the difference between what you and Gary are reporting
> for the flap motor draw? Could it be that Gary's flap hits the
> physical stop plate before the actuator up limit switch clicks,
> momentarily drawing excessive current? (I'm not sure that would be a
> bad thing)
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
I am guessing that it is those surge currents that are getting me.? I am not having
any trouble with individual circuits.? Where I am blowing fuses is the feed
to the Essential Bus.? I have the flaps on that bus.? I will increase the
size of those fuses to what the wires can handle and see if that does the trick.
Thanks - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Amperage draw
Motor circuits often have surge currents on start up that are more than double
the steady state running current of the motor. The surge current will even be
larger than the locked rotor current. The surge current is impossible to measure
with a digital meter and even with an analog meter, the surge may peak out
faster than the needle can follow. You need a device designed to measure these
short duration peaks to get an accurate reading. If you fuse for the steady state
current, these surges will eventually blow a normal fuse. The main purpose
of a fuse is to protect the wire supplying the circuit so don't worry that the
fuse value is larger than the current draw of the circuit as long as it's not
too large for the wire. Landing lights also have surge currents on start up
because the?filament?resistance increases as it heats up, so a landing light
circuit may need a larger fuse than you suspect.
On Nov 10, 2008, at 2:44 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Craig,? Thanks, that is just what I needed.
I wonder why the difference between what you and Gary are reporting for the flap
motor draw?? Could it be that Gary's flap hits the physical stop plate before
the actuator up limit switch clicks, momentarily drawing excessive current?
(I'm not sure that would be a bad thing)
--?
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,?
RAM?Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Jeff-
Do you have a stainless or galvanized firewall?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Before I put the remote compass where I did I spoke to dynon about it
and he said it isn't as sensitive as most think and the fact that I
placed 2 of them within 12 inches of the fire wall and haven't had any
problems quantify's that. If I had had problems with them I certainly
wouldn't be building my 3rd and 4th panel that way.
Jeff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Afterfxllc(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
galvanized
Jeff-
Do you have a stainless or galvanized firewall?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: _Afterfxllc(at)aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc(at)aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Before I put the remote compass where I did I spoke to dynon about it and he
said it isn't as sensitive as most think and the fact that I placed 2 of
them within 12 inches of the fire wall and haven't had any problems quantify's
that. If I had had problems with them I certainly wouldn't be building my 3rd
and 4th panel that way.
Jeff
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Fuse sizes - another point of view. |
I decided to use fuses on my Zodiac XL. Further, I decided to use
only fuse sizes in 5 amp increments - 5, 10, 15, etc. I did this for
my convenience rather than a need to match exact current loads on each circuit.
Fuses are disaster prevention devices rather than current
regulators. A normal fuse will blow when exposed to the rated
current for a very short time. A short circuit from power to ground
will quickly draw a huge current, so a fuse of nearly any size will
protect the wiring in that circuit.
Wiring is not meant to melt at the rated current like fuses are. The
normal standard for the current limit on any size wire is that
current that will cause the temperature of the wire to increase by 10
degrees. It takes a whole lot more current than that to melt the wire.
My other decision was to put the fuses behind the instrument panel,
as is commonly done in cars, rather than some place the pilot can
fool with them in flight. This was done for a number of reasons but
two of them come to mind first. 1) In my many years of flying and
driving I have never had a fuse or circuit breaker blow. 2) In the
unusual case where a circuit does blow, I think it is unlikely that
the problem will be found while flying. This should require a major
repair on the circuit in question which can only be done on the ground.
Perhaps it is appropriate for nearly all planes to have panels full
of circuit breakers and emergency procedures that call for cycling
the circuit breaker when an electrical failure occurs. This may be a
life saver in hard IFR if the only thing that went wrong is the
circuit breaker decided to trip for some random reason. In my case -
mostly Day VFR - I figure I should focus on flying the plane rather
than trouble shooting the electronics until the flight is over.
Paul
XL getting close
(Retired Electrical Engineer)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Jeff-
At this point I honest to God don't know what to think. Guess I'll
try the tray and see if it works.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
galvanized
Jeff-
Do you have a stainless or galvanized firewall?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Before I put the remote compass where I did I spoke to dynon about
it and he said it isn't as sensitive as most think and the fact that I
placed 2 of them within 12 inches of the fire wall and haven't had any
problems quantify's that. If I had had problems with them I certainly
wouldn't be building my 3rd and 4th panel that way.
Jeff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Afterfxllc(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Well If you want you can talk to Pat or Ben ... They have flown behind them
and they can tell you how well it works or don't work. Don't just take my
word for it.
Jeff
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compass location |
Jeff-
You know where I'm coming from- I just don't want to have to do
something over that will involve me tearing half the plane apart and
standing on my head!
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Remote compass location
Well If you want you can talk to Pat or Ben ... They have flown behind
them and they can tell you how well it works or don't work. Don't just
take my word for it.
Jeff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dingfelder" <ding(at)tbscc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
I adjusted my flap limit switches to shut off just very
slightly after the flap hits the stop. This puts a slight twist pressure
on the flap to keep it rigid in flight. I popped several fuses (15 A.)
during the adjustment process. As soon as the motor is stalled, the load
is too great. I've had no problems at all with it in flight.
Lynn 601XL / Corvair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | 601 Aileron cable tension |
Has the letter about wing/alieron flutter from AMD & Zac been mentioned on
the list? Said to check aileron cable tension and the rivets on the doubler
for the rear spar and that we should not fly until these were to standard.
Seems as if they are pretty sure the loss of wing accidents were from flutter.
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Wire Size For VDO Fuel Senders |
I tried to find information on this in the archives, but was not successful.
Can anyone tell me what size wire I should be using for the VDO fuel
senders? From my reading, I understand that wire should be sized based on
the current load of the device and any derating factor if placed in a
bundle. However, there is no amperage information provided with the fuel
senders. The only information I could find, in the assembly guide, is the
variable resistance (from approx. 70 ohms at empty position to approx. 10
ohms at full position). Does the wire size actually depend on what I will
be using on the other end for the fuel gauges?
Thanks for any help you can provide,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | 601 Aileron cable tension |
Is the wing flutter problem just on XL's or are the older 601HDS wings
affected too?
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
Has the letter about wing/alieron flutter from AMD & Zac been mentioned on
the list? Said to check aileron cable tension and the rivets on the doubler
for the rear spar and that we should not fly until these were to standard.
Seems as if they are pretty sure the loss of wing accidents were from
flutter.
_____
AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday
<http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=e
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire Size For VDO Fuel Senders |
Hi Dave,
The current load from your fuel sender can be calculated by taking
the minimum resistance in ohms and dividing the voltage (14) by
it. I suspect you will get something less than 1 amp. That would
suggest you could use any size wire you want.
However, you want wire that is strong enough mechanically to stand up
to the rigors of flying around in your plane. This might suggest 16
awg or perhaps something down to 22 awg depending on how strong you
think the wire should be and how well it is supported as it is routed
from the fuel tank to the fuel gauge.
In the end, it is just a coin flipper.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:27 PM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>I tried to find information on this in the archives, but was not
>successful. Can anyone tell me what size wire I should be using for
>the VDO fuel senders? From my reading, I understand that wire
>should be sized based on the current load of the device and any
>derating factor if placed in a bundle. However, there is no
>amperage information provided with the fuel senders. The only
>information I could find, in the assembly guide, is the variable
>resistance (from approx. 70 ohms at empty position to approx. 10
>ohms at full position). Does the wire size actually depend on what
>I will be using on the other end for the fuel gauges?
>
>Thanks for any help you can provide,
>
>Dave Van Lanen
>
>601XL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnDRead(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wire Size For VDO Fuel Senders |
Hello Dave;
I am using 16 gauge wire every where other than in places
where high current is required. While this may be overkill I like the
mechanical strength of that size of wire.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> |
| Subject: | 601 Aileron cable tension |
Roger
The only accident that I'm aware of involving HD type wings is the Bramley
UK accident. The accident report gives the probable cause for that accident
to be an over-stressed wing that apparently resulted from an abrupt
climbing maneuver to avoid power lines. The accident report is the file
G_YOXI.pdf in the ZBAG file section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/files/
There is no mention of flutter.
Terry
>Is the wing flutter problem just on XL's or are the older 601HDS wings
>affected too?
>
>
>Roger
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Wire Size For VDO Fuel Senders |
Given the minimal current flow the limiting factor will be a wire big enough
to reliably crimp a connector onto.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:27 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Wire Size For VDO Fuel Senders
I tried to find information on this in the archives, but was not successful.
Can anyone tell me what size wire I should be using for the VDO fuel
senders? From my reading, I understand that wire should be sized based on
the current load of the device and any derating factor if placed in a
bundle. However, there is no amperage information provided with the fuel
senders. The only information I could find, in the assembly guide, is the
variable resistance (from approx. 70 ohms at empty position to approx. 10
ohms at full position). Does the wire size actually depend on what I will
be using on the other end for the fuel gauges?
Thanks for any help you can provide,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
| From: | "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net> |
There are also different types of fuses, but generally they are slow and fast acting
fuses. Make sure that you have the slow acting type for a motor circuit.
The inrush current of DC motors is 10 or more times the steady current draw
or so, but only for milliseconds or at least a pretty short time. The fast acting
ones will blow on high inrush currents as they are made to protect delicate
electronics and not the wiring. The slow acting type will not blow on inrush
if the circuit is OK and you have chosen the correct rating. They are rated
by % overload VS time, the mfg should have this info on their website.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213473#213473
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
Rogar, the letter referred to 601 and 650 airplanes, Bill
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
Hi Roger,
I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the XL.
The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection. With
the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in an
extended
dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
>
> Is the wing flutter problem just on XLs or are the older 601HDS wings
> affected too?
>
> Roger
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Goodings <goodings(at)yorku.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Amperage Draw |
The current-carrying capacity of wires is listed as: 18 A.W.G. (5 amp. in
flexible wire (A.W.G. = American wire gauge), 16 A.W.G. (7 amp.) and 14
A.W.G. (15 amp.). For all routine wiring, use 18 A.W.G. aircraft wire -
it is strong enough. Use a fuse matched to the device you are running;
allow a 50% overrun. This assumes the device has an amperage rating less
than the wire supplying it. For delicate things, 20 A.W.G. may be enough.
For starter motors, etc., much bigger gauge is needed - as big as you can
reasonably use. And, use SLOW-BLOW fuses which will stand a bit of a
surge, not fast-blow.
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Ottawa/Carp/Toronto.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
I dove my HDS to 160 MPH during phase 1 testing, 5 MPH increase at a
time. A non-event, other than a shorts change.
--
Leo Gates
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO
Rotax 912UL
LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>
> Hi Roger,
> I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the XL.
> The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection. With
> the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in an
> extended
> dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
>>
>> Is the wing flutter problem just on XLs or are the older 601HDS
>> wings affected too?
>>
>> Roger
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET> |
| Subject: | Wires and fuses and such |
Shouldn't fuses/cbs be matched to protect the wire in the circuit?
So matching the fuse to the amp draw of the load item seems to be
skipping a step - no?
The wire gauge should be selected to match the load, cooling
requirements, distance of the run, voltage loss over that distance
etc. Then the fuse/cb is matched to the wire gauge. Isn't that the
way it's "supposed" to be done?
Having said that, after wiring my plane according to Bob Nucholl's
excellent manual, if I did it over again I might do like most car
manufacturers do and use nothing less than 16 gauge wire w 10 amp
fuses. This would vastly simplify the whole thing, simplify the fuse
layout/ need for extras; and would add only a negligible amount of
weight on a simple aircraft like this.
fwiw
Grant
C-GHTF w/ CAM100
(now into winter works projects/upgrades)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
WE HAVE A VETERN PILOT ON THE FIELD THAT HAS CONFIRMED FLUTTER AND LUCKLY GO
T IT BACK UNDER CONTROL BEFORE ANY DAMAGE OCCURED AIRCRAFT WAS 601XL
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
Sent: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:54 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
=C2-
I dove my HDS to 160 MPH during phase 1 testing, 5 MPH increase at a time. A
non-event, other than a shorts change.=C2-
-- =C2-
Leo Gates=C2-
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO=C2-
Rotax 912UL=C2-
=C2-
LarryMcFarland wrote:=C2-
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Hi Roger,=C2-
> I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the XL.
=C2-
> The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection. With
=C2-
> the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in an > e
xtended=C2-
> dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.=C2-
>=C2-
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com=C2-
>=C2-
> Roger & Lina Hill wrote:=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Is the wing flutter problem just on XL=99s or are the older 601HDS
>> wings affected too?=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Roger=C2-
>>=C2-
=C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Nicopress tools? |
In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized that I am gett
ing close to rigging up all the cables.- I have been trying to find the b
est solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable sleeves.- Any recommend
ations?- And what size press do I need as I have been looking for them on
Ebay?- Some of them list an "M" jaw size with an oval for 1/8" cables?
- Anybody have one they would like to sell?- And where can I get inform
ation on building a cable tensioner indicating device?
Don Mountain
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires and fuses and such |
Hi Grant,
I think your procedure is OK but a bit of overkill. It would work,
but so would using fuses that are sufficiently large to not blow
under normal use. For example, a 10 amp fuse will do a fine job on a
circuit that only draws 1 amp under normal use.
I have separate fuses for each major electrical or electronic
device. I put them in nice little fuse blocks I got from NAPA.
My idea is if a fuse blows then it only takes out one device and
repairs should be delayed until after the flight is over. That means
I mounted the fuse blocks behind the instrument panel, the way it is
normally done in cars, rather than cluttering the panel front with them.
Paul
XL getting close
At 09:27 AM 11/11/2008, you wrote:
>
>Shouldn't fuses/cbs be matched to protect the wire in the circuit?
>So matching the fuse to the amp draw of the load item seems to be
>skipping a step - no?
>
>The wire gauge should be selected to match the load, cooling
>requirements, distance of the run, voltage loss over that distance
>etc. Then the fuse/cb is matched to the wire gauge. Isn't that the
>way it's "supposed" to be done?
>
>Having said that, after wiring my plane according to Bob Nucholl's
>excellent manual, if I did it over again I might do like most car
>manufacturers do and use nothing less than 16 gauge wire w 10 amp
>fuses. This would vastly simplify the whole thing, simplify the fuse
>layout/ need for extras; and would add only a negligible amount of
>weight on a simple aircraft like this.
>
>fwiw
>Grant
>C-GHTF w/ CAM100
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress tools? |
Hi Don,
I've been using the Swage-it tool. It costs less than $20 at
A/S. Here is a link:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/swagingtool.php
I would suggest you order a few extra sleeves to practice with.
On the cable tension, I was planning to build one of the measuring
tools but with all the noise related to wing separations I decided to
buy the lower priced one (around $190) instead.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
At 09:53 AM 11/11/2008, you wrote:
>In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized that I
>am getting close to rigging up all the cables. I have been trying
>to find the best solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable
>sleeves. Any recommendations? And what size press do I need as I
>have been looking for them on Ebay? Some of them list an "M" jaw
>size with an oval for 1/8" cables? Anybody have one they would like
>to sell? And where can I get information on building a cable
>tensioner indicating device?
>
>Don Mountain
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress tools? |
Don -
I used the Economy Swaging tool from Aircraft Spruce
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/swagingtool.php), its
only $18.65 and seemed to work well with the 1/8" cables on my 601XL. Be
sure to get the nicopress gauge to test your crimped sleeves as well.
Larry McFarland at http://www.macsmachine.com/ has info on building your
own cable tension device.
Good Luck,
John Davis
601XL - Jab 3300
Ready for first Flight...
Don Mountain wrote:
> In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized that I am
> getting close to rigging up all the cables. I have been trying to
> find the best solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable sleeves.
> Any recommendations? And what size press do I need as I have been
> looking for them on Ebay? Some of them list an "M" jaw size with an
> oval for 1/8" cables? Anybody have one they would like to sell? And
> where can I get information on building a cable tensioner indicating
> device?
>
> Don Mountain
>
>
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
-----Original Message-----
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Sent: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:38 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
=C2-
=C2-
Hi Roger,=C2-
I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the XL.=C2
-
The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection. With=C2
-
the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in an exten
ded=C2-
dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.=C2-
=C2-
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com=C2-
=C2-
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
> Is the wing flutter problem just on XL=99s or are the older 601HDS w
ings > affected too?=C2-
>=C2-
> Roger=C2-
>=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress tools? |
I made a cable tension gauge like the one shown on Larry Macs website.
It works but needs calibration...
I ll give it to you, just pay $10 shipping..
notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Mountain
To: Zenith
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:53 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Nicopress tools?
In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized
that I am getting close to rigging up all the cables. I have been
trying to find the best solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable
sleeves. Any recommendations? And what size press do I need as I have
been looking for them on Ebay? Some of them list an "M" jaw size with
an oval for 1/8" cables? Anybody have one they would like to sell? And
where can I get information on building a cable tensioner indicating
device?
Don Mountain
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
Pat , Which model Zenith do you fly ???
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: passpat(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com ; a300cpt(at)bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
WE HAVE A VETERN PILOT ON THE FIELD THAT HAS CONFIRMED FLUTTER AND
LUCKLY GOT IT BACK UNDER CONTROL BEFORE ANY DAMAGE OCCURED AIRCRAFT WAS
601XL
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:54 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
I dove my HDS to 160 MPH during phase 1 testing, 5 MPH increase at a
time. A non-event, other than a shorts change.
--
Leo Gates
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO
Rotax 912UL
LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>
> Hi Roger,
> I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the
XL.
> The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection.
With
> the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in
an > extended
> dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
>>
>> Is the wing flutter problem just on XL=99s or are the older
601HDS >> wings affected too?
>>
>> Roger
>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | 601 Aileron cable tension |
there still is not concrete evidence there is a flutter issue on any of the models.
The AD is an advisory, on any of the aircraft and is recommending that
people tension the cables AS PER THE PLANS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW IN THE BUILD
PROCESS (REFER TO PLANS)
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2008 12:05 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>
>Roger
>
>The only accident that I'm aware of involving HD type wings is the Bramley
>UK accident. The accident report gives the probable cause for that accident
>to be an over-stressed wing that apparently resulted from an abrupt
>climbing maneuver to avoid power lines. The accident report is the file
>G_YOXI.pdf in the ZBAG file section:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/files/
>
>There is no mention of flutter.
>
>Terry
>
>
>
>>Is the wing flutter problem just on XL's or are the older 601HDS wings
>>affected too?
>>
>>
>>
>>Roger
>
>
>Terry Phillips ZBAGer
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>are done; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
Aileron flutter is different from wing flutter.
I vote its been aileron cable tension that causes the problems. Any
unbalanced control surface will act unusual at speeds without the cables
tight. Look at the Piper J 3..
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>
> there still is not concrete evidence there is a flutter issue on any of
> the models. The AD is an advisory, on any of the aircraft and is
> recommending that people tension the cables AS PER THE PLANS YOU ARE
> SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW IN THE BUILD PROCESS (REFER TO PLANS)
>
> Juan
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
>>Sent: Nov 11, 2008 12:05 AM
>>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>>
>>Roger
>>
>>The only accident that I'm aware of involving HD type wings is the Bramley
>>UK accident. The accident report gives the probable cause for that
>>accident
>>to be an over-stressed wing that apparently resulted from an abrupt
>>climbing maneuver to avoid power lines. The accident report is the file
>>G_YOXI.pdf in the ZBAG file section:
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/files/
>>
>>There is no mention of flutter.
>>
>>Terry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Is the wing flutter problem just on XL's or are the older 601HDS wings
>>>affected too?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Roger
>>
>>
>>Terry Phillips ZBAGer
>>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>>Corvallis MT
>>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>>are done; working on the wings
>>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron cable tension |
does not mean its adesign flaw, it just tells me the cables were not properly tightened.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2008 1:56 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>
>Pat , Which model Zenith do you fly ???
>
>S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: passpat(at)aol.com
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com ; a300cpt(at)bellsouth.net
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>
>
> WE HAVE A VETERN PILOT ON THE FIELD THAT HAS CONFIRMED FLUTTER AND LUCKLY GOT
IT BACK UNDER CONTROL BEFORE ANY DAMAGE OCCURED AIRCRAFT WAS 601XL
>
> Pat
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:54 am
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron cable tension
>
>
>
> I dove my HDS to 160 MPH during phase 1 testing, 5 MPH increase at a time. A
non-event, other than a shorts change.
> --
> Leo Gates
> N601Z - CH601HDS TDO
> Rotax 912UL
>
> LarryMcFarland wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> > I believe wing flutter is only suspected, but never confirmed on the XL.
> > The condition has never been reported on a HDS to my recollection. With
> > the thicker wing and section strength, you'd probably have to be in an > extended
> > dive straight down to get flutter on the HDS.
> >
> > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> >
> > Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
> >>
> >> Is the wing flutter problem just on XLs or are the older 601HDS >> wings
affected too?
> >>
> >> Roger
> >>
>
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> ===========
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>
>
>
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>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress tools? |
make a guage and use a nico presss from Home Depot. check the press with your
guage. 1/8 inch i believe.
-----Original Message-----
>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2008 1:53 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicopress tools?
>
>I made a cable tension gauge like the one shown on Larry Macs website. It works
but needs calibration...
>I ll give it to you, just pay $10 shipping..
>notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net
>Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Mountain
> To: Zenith
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:53 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Nicopress tools?
>
>
> In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized that I am
getting close to rigging up all the cables. I have been trying to find the best
solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable sleeves. Any recommendations?
And what size press do I need as I have been looking for them on Ebay? Some
of them list an "M" jaw size with an oval for 1/8" cables? Anybody have one
they would like to sell? And where can I get information on building a cable
tensioner indicating device?
>
> Don Mountain
>
>
>
>3D============================================
>3D============================================
>3D============================================
>3D============================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
I am in the rigging stage for my 601XL, and can't find any references to wh
at the cable tensions are supposed to be in the plans or manual.- What ar
e all the cables supposed to be tensioned to and where may I find this info
rmation on the 601XL plans or specifications?
Don Mountain
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress tools? |
Don-
The ACS swaging tool works fine, but you'll probably have carpal tunnel
by the time you're done.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm(at)att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicopress tools?
>
> Hi Don,
>
> I've been using the Swage-it tool. It costs less than $20 at A/S. Here
> is a link:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/swagingtool.php
>
> I would suggest you order a few extra sleeves to practice with.
>
> On the cable tension, I was planning to build one of the measuring tools
> but with all the noise related to wing separations I decided to buy the
> lower priced one (around $190) instead.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Paul
> XL getting close
>
> At 09:53 AM 11/11/2008, you wrote:
>
>>In putting the tail section together on my 601XL, I realized that I am
>>getting close to rigging up all the cables. I have been trying to find
>>the best solution for the Nicopress tool for the cable sleeves. Any
>>recommendations? And what size press do I need as I have been looking for
>>them on Ebay? Some of them list an "M" jaw size with an oval for 1/8"
>>cables? Anybody have one they would like to sell? And where can I get
>>information on building a cable tensioner indicating device?
>>
>>Don Mountain
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Haskins" <rhaskins(at)kumc.edu> |
| Subject: | Countersinking tool and thread chaser for 601XL fuel tank filler |
neck
Where can I buy, borrow, steal, or rent a countersinking tool and thread
chaser for the fuel tank filler neck for the 601XL?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
check the page with the cable rigging, its says 30 lbs. that is inch lbs i believe,
or 4 ft lbs.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2008 6:20 PM
>To: Zenith
>Subject: Zenith-List: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>I am in the rigging stage for my 601XL, and can't find any references to what
the cable tensions are supposed to be in the plans or manual. What are all the
cables supposed to be tensioned to and where may I find this information on the
601XL plans or specifications?
>
>Don Mountain
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
They just posted a great guide on the builder site at zenith.
Go to the Zenith Aircraft Builder Pages, click on
"for important notices and other building and flying information."
then click on the link next to Zenair Safety Alert
"Photo guide: How to check the control cable tension of your Zodiac"
I would like to just post the link but I promised Zenith I wouldn't.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213616#213616
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Countersinking tool and thread chaser for 601XL fuel |
tank fi
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
Contact Zenith and get on the list to get the Big Tap. I used it and it only took
minutes to fix it up. Here is my log entry that shows what came in the package:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=39171&row=192
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213617#213617
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Hi Juan,
I think you are confusing cable tension with torque.
My take on 30 pounds of tension is the amount of tension (pull) you
get when the cable is holding up a 30 pound weight.
I just got the tensiometer shown in the AD from Aircraft Spruce and
measured the rudder and elevator cables I already have installed (my
wings are not yet on the plane). My results setting the cable
tension with no instruments at all were very close to the desired
ones. The rudder was 7 pounds high and the elevator was 2 pounds
low. Perhaps that is why Chris Heintz originally suggested we didn't
really need the fancy instrument to rig the cables.
Paul
XL getting close
At 07:32 PM 11/11/2008, you wrote:
>check the page with the cable rigging, its says 30 lbs. that is inch
>lbs i believe, or 4 ft lbs.
>
>Juan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Nov 7th and 9th updates on Zenith European groundings |
>From http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page505.htm
Nov 7th:
"For many owners of the presently grounded CH 601 XL in Europe, evidence of
progress with the current investigation has been disappointingly slim for
the last week. This is also the case for Zenair Europe. The response from
Dutch authorities to our repeated inquiries has been consistent: "The
investigation is on-going". Our offer to provide input has been politely
declined, as has our request to inspect the accident aircraft, as has our
offer to fly designer Chris Heintz to Holland to answer engineering
questions. Other Civilian Aviation Authorities (CAA) have also attempted to
obtain additional details, to no avail.
Adding to the frustration: Due to the complete lack of information being
released, even between agencies, the CAA of a number of additional countries
have felt compelled to adopt the Dutch "emergency" action: To our knowledge,
the Czech Republic, Greece and Spain all grounded their CH 601 XL fleets
this week. A number of offices we are in contact with regret at having to
ground the aircraft, but until the Dutch Safety Board reveals the basis for
its allegation that the "design calculations by the designer were probably
too optimistic", they have little choice but to err on the side of caution.
Another unexpected twist this week came from the UK: In the UK, where the
CH 601 XL is considered an Experimental amateur-built design (it is not a
certified ultralight there like in the rest of Europe), the LAA did not feel
that grounding the aircraft was justified based on the available information
from the Netherlands (see our update of October 30). Now aware, however,
(via our bulletin #ZE-2008-001) that aileron flutter is a remote possibility
if control cables are loose, the LAA has grounded the XL fleet in the UK
until it has been demonstrated that the aircraft will remain flutter-free
throughout the range of its flight envelope, even with cable tensions set at
their lowest approved tolerances.
In the original rational which accompanies their "Emergency Airworthiness
Directive" (grounding), Dutch authorities cite "seven similar accidents
worldwide that have not been explained" [paraphrased]. A number of builders
have pointed out the inaccuracy of this claim as well as the absurdity of
using it to justify the current grounding. Zenair has tried to convey this
message and hopes that it was heard. We thank Dutch CH 601 XL owner and
pilot Hans Oosterhoff for researching these accidents and for sending us a
summary of his findings; it will be included in our next update."
The Nov 9th update nicely summarizes many of the accidents around the world.
One twist I didn't know about the crash in Spain:
"Accident in Spain (05/02/2008): According to eyewitnesses, wing fractured
after an explosion. Additional context from Zenair dealer in Spain: accident
occurred after a high-speed pass and pull-up over a football field where a
family member of passenger was playing. Based on findings, Accident
Investigation Committee estimated high speed pass of approx. 290 Km/h*.
(Source: http://www.ultraligero.net/Accidentes/08.htm and Zenair
correspondence) (CZAW-ULM) *Note: VNE = 260km/h"
By my calculations 290 Km/h would be 180.1 mph.
-- Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Hello all... update on my cable tensions... my rudder cable tensions had to be
adjusted today... although my IA set the aileron and elevator tensions to the
high range of the AD/service letter, he left the rudder tension alone at 27 pounds--his
notes seemed to indicate the tension got less as the prop was placed
in a sling. The tension should increase not decrease.
I checked the tensions today and they were 27 with weight on the nose, 33 with
the prop lifted by hand and nearly 40 with the nose gear stop plate at rest.
Now, they have been adjusted to 25 with the stop plate at rest, but only 12-13
sitting on the tarmac. The O-200a with a metal prop is fairly heavy so the nose
gear stop plate (for those of us with the older nose strut) is raised about
3/4" at rest.
Thanks to all who questioned my last posting of rudder tension numbers off line.
Happy Veteran's Day to all of you veterans out there--thank you for giving my generation
the opportunities we enjoy.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213631#213631
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
> check the page with the cable rigging, its says 30 lbs. that is inch lbs i
> believe, or 4 ft lbs.
No, that's 30 pounds cable tension, not torque (what would it be torque
*on*?).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
"No, that's 30 pounds cable tension, not torque "
Jay, what page (letter/number) of your plans are you referring to. I did not know
they handed out plans with the S-LSA. That is cool. So too, what revision
date is on the page you refer to.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213637#213637
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HDS overspeed tests |
| From: | charles.long(at)allisontransmission.com |
For the guys with HDS's out there, I flew my bird to 10% over Vne (160 mph
+ 16 mph = 176 mph) in still air and lightly tapped the stick in all 4
directions. No flutter or other problems. Glad that's over with!
Clear Skies!
Chuck Long
Zodie Rocket
N601LE, 180 hr TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mversteeg <maarten.versteeg(at)swri.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires and fuses and such |
Hello Paul,
I agree with you that messing with fuses in flight seems a hazardous
activity and
only should be considered if really needed. But I have a question
regarding you
clean solution of placing the fuses out of sight.
The FAR Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. says: "(d) If the
ability to reset
a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight,
that circuit breaker
or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset
or replaced in
flight.".
Do you know how a DAR would interpret the above rule with respect to you
panel design? Clearly the word open for interpretation is "safety in
flight", would
you consider all electrical systems served by the fuses to fall outside
the safety
in flight category?
Regards,
Maarten
plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing
> From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wires and fuses and such
>
> Hi Grant,
>
> I think your procedure is OK but a bit of overkill. It would work,
> but so would using fuses that are sufficiently large to not blow
> under normal use. For example, a 10 amp fuse will do a fine job on a
> circuit that only draws 1 amp under normal use.
>
> I have separate fuses for each major electrical or electronic
> device. I put them in nice little fuse blocks I got from NAPA.
>
> My idea is if a fuse blows then it only takes out one device and
> repairs should be delayed until after the flight is over. That means
> I mounted the fuse blocks behind the instrument panel, the way it is
> normally done in cars, rather than cluttering the panel front with them.
>
> Paul
> XL getting close
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Mr. Haas,
The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft every time
I authorize a new test flight. It is a very serious task, especially the first
flight after each XL fatality.
The rudder tension numbers bothered me and that is why I did not sign the aircraft
off for the next flight until I figured it out. (Remember now, the IA did
not adjust the rudder tensions.) I posted the numbers here and you guys, albeit
off list, confirmed my problem with the numbers. Since I have 33% more bearing
surface than you guys on the rudder, 5 more pounds of tension than the Haas
30 +/- 5 is nominal, but not optimal.
Most newer, light-engine 601s have a higher 'at rest' rudder tension because the
stop plate is at or nearly at rest. My nose heavy aircraft, and those with
more time on their bungee will see their at rest rudder tensions drop. Each of
us should expect a different at rest value and something other than my 12-13
pound differential between rest and flight.
Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and had to
defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last December and January,
since I have never flown it or in it, I have to rely upon others in situations
involving the feel of the aircraft in flight. For example, the rudder
is often described in post-flight briefings as heavy, the ailerons medium and
the elevator light as compared to my Cessna 150L. My test pilot actually flies
my C150L first and then flies the Sabrina. Although they are different animals,
they do share many features including a common engine/prop. This nearly
contemporaneous comparison gives me the only "feel" I have for the Sabrina in
flight and takes away the "local conditions" factor that might otherwise taint
the comparison.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213742#213742
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wade jones" <wjones(at)brazoriainet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Hello group ,I have been reading the posts concerning the cable tensions
,this should help in correcting the flutter problem (if there is one) .While
building my 601XL I did not even consider installing aileron trim .Yes I did
use elevator trim .Don't know if this qualifies me in any way ,however I
have been flying/maintaining and building planes for 48 years have A/P/ and
I/A ratings .We were always taught to rebalance control surfaces after
painting .If a little paint will add to flutter what would the weight of an
added trim + servo+ hinge do for the balance .It may pay for the readers of
this post to break out their AC 43.13-1B acceptable methods techniques, and
practices and read 4-36 flutter and vibration precautions . I am certain
several will disagree with my post but I urge you to read the AC43.13-1B .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm(at)att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> Hi Juan,
>
> I think you are confusing cable tension with torque.
>
> My take on 30 pounds of tension is the amount of tension (pull) you get
> when the cable is holding up a 30 pound weight.
>
> I just got the tensiometer shown in the AD from Aircraft Spruce and
> measured the rudder and elevator cables I already have installed (my wings
> are not yet on the plane). My results setting the cable tension with no
> instruments at all were very close to the desired ones. The rudder was 7
> pounds high and the elevator was 2 pounds low. Perhaps that is why Chris
> Heintz originally suggested we didn't really need the fancy instrument to
> rig the cables.
>
> Paul
> XL getting close
>
>
> At 07:32 PM 11/11/2008, you wrote:
>
>>check the page with the cable rigging, its says 30 lbs. that is inch lbs i
>>believe, or 4 ft lbs.
>>
>>Juan
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires and fuses and such |
Hi Maarten,
I guess the regulation you cited explains why so many panels are
crowded with circuit breakers. In their great wisdom, the FAA seems
to have dictated that solution.
Fortunately, I don't think part 23 regulations apply to experimental
- amateur built airplanes. This may be one of many examples of the
notion that the FAA regulations are overly restrictive on certified planes.
To directly answer your question, my plans are to limit my flights to
Day/VFR. I suspect I could safely conduct such flights without any
electrical equipment operating at all. The only really essential
piece of electrical gear is the starter motor. My Jabiru is not
likely to start any other way.
Best regards,
Paul
At 06:34 AM 11/12/2008, you wrote:
>Hello Paul,
>
>I agree with you that messing with fuses in flight seems a hazardous
>activity and
>only should be considered if really needed. But I have a question
>regarding you
>clean solution of placing the fuses out of sight.
>The FAR Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. says: "(d) If the
>ability to reset
>a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in
>flight, that circuit breaker
>or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily
>reset or replaced in
>flight.".
>Do you know how a DAR would interpret the above rule with respect to you
>panel design? Clearly the word open for interpretation is "safety in
>flight", would
>you consider all electrical systems served by the fuses to fall
>outside the safety
>in flight category?
>
>Regards,
> Maarten
> plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
"I did use elevator trim."
Wade,
Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim.
The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly
tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too,
a builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was
a much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par.
4-36, why elevator trim?
As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab that
took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice
does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position rather
than down to keep the ice out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wade jones" <wjones(at)brazoriainet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
I knew someone would ask ,if no aileron trim why elevator trim .My answer
how many elevator failures has the 601XL had .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:24 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> "I did use elevator trim."
>
> Wade,
>
> Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron
> trim. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down,
> should, if properly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a
> fluttering elevator. So too, a builder can easily adjust an XL's
> horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so
> high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me
> than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. 4-36, why elevator
> trim?
>
> As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim
> tab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
>
> Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make
> sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the
> up position rather than down to keep the ice out.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ihab.awad(at)gmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Out of curiosity --
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Sabrina wrote:
> The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft every time
> I authorize a new test flight.
So you are having someone else fly off your 40h? Sounds good but,
since you have a PPL, why?
> Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and had
> to defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last December and
> January ...
Again out of curiosity: what meetings?
Cheers,
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J.T. Machin" <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Sabrina,
I have to agree with Wade.- Every aircraft's control system is different
and and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not imp
act its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control sur
face deflection that originates from the stick.- The deflection comes fro
m a flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy.- This flexi
ng and storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unfl
exes is a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect.- That is
why stiffer is better when it comes to control systems.
That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control surfac
es.- As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter, it
seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode.- I have not heard of any rep
ort instances of elevator flutter.- Also, any additional weight at the tr
ailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter speed.
- I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does hav
e less flutter margin than one without the trim system.
I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons.
Jim Machin
601XL, 0-200
Almost done!
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 8:24 AM
"I did use elevator trim."
Wade,
Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim
..
The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if prop
erly
tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So to
o, a
builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim
was a
much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under P
ar.
4-36, why elevator trim?
As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim t
ab
that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure
ice
does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
rather than down to keep the ice out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash. Even
if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away and
overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the stick
too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter
because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive.
There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforcing
strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling the
two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change.
6-T-3 08/05
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
> There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8
Has anyone asked Caleb?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash.
Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away
and overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the
stick too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron
flutter because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive.
There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn
reinforcing strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action
was pulling the two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis
for the design change. 6-T-3 08/05
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Craig,
Caleb, No, Roger, Yes.
Mr. Machin,
I think we are talking apples and oranges. You and Wade are worried about flutter.
I am worried about flutter that cannot be overcome. I was taught to dampen
aileron or wing flutter by a firm climb combined with a firm bank as one
reduces power. I know of no way to dampen elevator flutter other than by reducing
power. You talk about the benefits of adding weight to the trailing
edge of an elevator being a lower frequency of oscillation but the added mass
increases your chances of entering into the situation in the first place.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213772#213772
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J.T. Machin" <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
I'm not sure I agree.- The discussion was whether or not that addition of
the trim system had an impact on the flutter characteristics and whether t
he impact was greater on the ailerons or the elevator.- I am not really s
ure of all the details surrounding the crash due to the down elevator input
, but the structural testing Zenith did (negative load test of the wing) an
d the subsequent recommendation of reducing the down elevator travel indica
tes to me that flutter was not suspected in that case.-
-I still stand by my statement that the addition of the aileron trim syst
em reduces the flutter margin on 601 XL's.- As aileron flutter is the pri
mary concern (at least today's most popular culprit) not installing a non-e
ssential system that reduces the margin would seem prudent.
Jim
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 9:56 AM
I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash
..
Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got awa
y
and overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the
stick too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron
flutter because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive.
There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforc
ing
strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling t
he
two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design
change. 6-T-3 08/05
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "gburdett" <gburdett1(at)verizon.net> |
And I'm a 7 year old Dalmatian whose owner taught to fly using hand signals. Give
it a rest.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213775#213775
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Amperage draw |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Lynn,
Thanks.? That is precisely what I intend to do.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: dingfelder <ding(at)tbscc.com>
Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Amperage draw
?????????????
I adjusted my flap limit switches to shut off just very slightly after the flap
hits the stop.?This puts a slight twist pressure on the flap to keep it
rigid in flight. I popped several fuses? (15 A.) during the adjustment
process. As soon as?the motor is stalled, the load is too great. I've had
no problems at all with it in flight.
??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ???
Lynn????????? 601XL / Corvair
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J.T. Machin" <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Well, in my opinion, all flutter is very bad.- There is something called
limit cycle flutter which is a type of flutter that can be overcome, typica
lly referred to as a control surface "buzz". To me, this situation is a kin
to standing on the edge of a cliff with the edge crumbling away.- And ye
s, reducing speed and changing the aerodynamic loading can stop it.- Ther
e are other types of flutter that can be catastrophic in a very short perio
d of time and there is nothing you can do to stop it.- The particular flu
tter mode dictates which kind you get.
Also, there are absolutely no benefits to adding weight of any kind to a tr
ailing edge.- The goal is always to reduce the mass behind the hingeline.
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 10:39 AM
Craig,
Caleb, No, Roger, Yes.
Mr. Machin,
I think we are talking apples and oranges. You and Wade are worried about
flutter. I am worried about flutter that cannot be overcome. I was taught
to
dampen aileron or wing flutter by a firm climb combined with a firm bank as
one
reduces power. I know of no way to dampen elevator flutter other than b
y
reducing power. You talk about the benefits of adding weight to the trail
ing
edge of an elevator being a lower frequency of oscillation but the added ma
ss
increases your chances of entering into the situation in the first place.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213772#213772
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Stevenson <cpprhed144a(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Sabrina,=0A-=0AJust for the sake of mentioning it have you gone over each
of the bearing surfaces in your ailerons, flaps and rudder? Also with resp
ect to your cable runs through your fuselage is there a remote possibility
that something has induced friction or drag? While I don=A2t have the engin
eering background back ground or resources your family and EEA chapter are
blessed with I have found a solution is always present, one simply has to r
esearch or experiment until they find it. =0ASince it is unlikely you have
access to a wind tunnel for a full on ground systems test do you have acces
s to a stationary airplane engine test stand? If so you can secure your air
plane to the runway and get enough airflow across the wing and aileron and
rudder surfaces to test your aircrafts control surfaces for action and reac
tion. It=A2s not very scientific and admittedly is rather crude but it=A2s
worked well for me in the past on other projects I can=A2t discuss. =0A-
=0ABest=0A-=0AJWS=0A-=0ADo not arcive please=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________
____________________=0AFrom: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>=0ATo: zenith-l
ist(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:56:19 AM=0ASubjec
t: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?=0A=0A--> Zenith-List message
posted by: "Sabrina" =0A=0AI strongly disagree, elev
ator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash.- Even if an elevator
remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away and overstressed s
ome other component.- We just assume the pilot moved the stick too abrupt
ly.- It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter becau
se it can be dampened and the pilot can survive. =0A=0AThere has to be a re
ason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforcing strap, to the de
sign.- At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling the two horns a
part in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change.-
6-T-3 08/05=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.
-=- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Drall
========================0A=0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Sabrina,
FWIW: ? I asked the test pilot that first flew my 601XL if he used the elevator
trim.? He said "Definitely!"? He said that he virtually flew the airplane with
elevator trim.? To my thinking, that makes a pretty good case for the elevator
trim.? I don't have aileron trim, either.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:24 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
"I did use elevator trim."
Wade,
Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim.
The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly
tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too, a
builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was
a
much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par.
4-36, why elevator trim?
As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab
that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice
does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
rather than down to keep the ice out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo prop guys
blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they warm up and
wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not years.
I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. So too,
I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control inputs towards
the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, and the rudder too stiff.
Jay,
I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about nose-heavy XLs
wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching the H-stab down would
work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches up at full power, down
at reduced power and is level in cruise without any trim. Did you pitch your
H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Butting in here but,,,,
In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under
power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
Steve W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>
> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo
> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they
> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>
> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not
> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view.
> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light,
> and the rudder too stiff.
>
> Jay,
>
> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching
> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches
> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any
> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Now you got me calling my test pilot and he is on my back. :o)
He says you are 100% right and wants me to quote him correctly in the future:
"full power = a nice climb, cruise power = level flight, reduced power = a slight
nose over that would prevent a stall."
P.S. You think my use of the word "pitch" bothered you, I got six e-mails complaining
about me calling the nose gear stop place "at rest" when it is in flight.
I meant resting against the upper bearing plate. I got one referring to
me as a type of dog, but that word begins with B and not P. I probably still
had that on my mind when I wrote "pitch". Sorry.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213800#213800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
"Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is trimmed
at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm or power setting,
so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than anything, relavant
on a limitted basis to level flight.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>Butting in here but,,,,
>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under
>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
>Steve W.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>>
>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>>
>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo
>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they
>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>>
>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not
>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view.
>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light,
>> and the rudder too stiff.
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching
>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches
>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any
>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
not having elevator trim limits the plane's power to weight true speed capabilitys.
You pitch/ trim for speed and throttle for climb. If no trim avaialable
than the plane will be set a level flight at a certain horsepower and as weight
changes the level flight/ horse power output will change.
Cable tension is a whole differnt ball of wax. The Tension AD is out there because
people did not focus on it as that important and it bit some folks in the
ass, and then they blame it on the design.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:25 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>
>It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo prop guys
blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they warm up and
wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>
>I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not years.
I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. So too,
I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control inputs towards
the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, and the rudder too
stiff.
>
>Jay,
>
>I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about nose-heavy XLs
wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching the H-stab down would
work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches up at full power, down
at reduced power and is level in cruise without any trim. Did you pitch your
H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
every pilot flys their plane with the trim. makes for better and smooth flying.
a plane with now trim is limitred in its true capabilities and so is the pilot.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:08 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
> Sabrina,
>
>FWIW: ? I asked the test pilot that first flew my 601XL if he used the elevator
trim.? He said "Definitely!"? He said that he virtually flew the airplane with
elevator trim.? To my thinking, that makes a pretty good case for the elevator
trim.? I don't have aileron trim, either.
>
>Jay in Dallas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:24 am
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>"I did use elevator trim."
>
>Wade,
>
>Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim.
>The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly
>tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too,
a
>builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
>configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was
a
>much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par.
>4-36, why elevator trim?
>
>As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab
>that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
>
>Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice
>does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
>rather than down to keep the ice out.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting. OR
rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and
desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a whole
bunch.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is
> trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm
> or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than
> anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight.
>
> Juan
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM
>>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>
>>
>>Butting in here but,,,,
>>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under
>>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
>>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
>>Steve W.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>>To:
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>>>
>>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo
>>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they
>>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>>>
>>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months,
>>> not
>>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of
>>> view.
>>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
>>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light,
>>> and the rudder too stiff.
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>>
>>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
>>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching
>>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1
>>> pitches
>>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without
>>> any
>>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
My 601HDS propeller fluttered too !!!!
Then it broke off.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.T. Machin
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Sabrina,
I have to agree with Wade. Every aircraft's control system is different and
and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not impact
its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control surface
deflection that originates from the stick. The deflection comes from a
flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy. This flexing and
storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unflexes is
a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect. That is why stiffer
is better when it comes to control systems.
That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control
surfaces. As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter,
it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode. I have not heard of any
report instances of elevator flutter. Also, any additional weight at the
trailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter speed.
I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does have
less flutter margin than one without the trim system.
I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons.
Jim Machin
601XL, 0-200
Almost done!
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 8:24 AM
"I did use elevator trim."
Wade,
Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than
the aileron trim.
The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if
properly
tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So
too, a
builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim
was a
much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under
Par.
4-36, why elevator trim?
As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim
tab
that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure
ice
does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
rather than down to keep the ice out.
Read this topic online
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Mr. Haas,
As for building the aircraft, I know you don't think a girl could build an aircraft
so no amount of photos or videos would ever convince you. You are not the
first and will not be the last to underestimate me.
What may surprise you is that I have never wanted to be a pilot or an aircraft
builder, it is just a step towards my dreams of building spacecraft.
As for flying N5886Q, I don't have the license to do it here. I wish I did.
I have always admitted to having a great deal of help building it. It started
with Scott Laughlin, then Larry's website, then Andres, and Mr. Sewell (all from
the ch601.org list) Also, I would read this list often. Actually riveting
together an airframe kit is a no brainer. Figuring out how to move a 200 pound
engine from the back of the garage to the nose of an aircraft by yourself
is a little challenging, but figuring out the fuel system, avionics and how to
create an interior was much more difficult. These were all one off. I don't
know anyone with a similar panel or true tuck and roll interior. I kinda like
the look of my cowling too. Am I proud, Yes. I really like my leading edge
modification and ejector canopy too.
At first, I figured after the airplane flew, my job was done. When the XL started
having more and more problems, it was a nightmare for me. Then, I realized
this was an opportunity of a life time. It is very challenging and interesting
to develop a flight test program for the airplane. I am learning so much
more than I ever thought I would. I am very proud that my first squawk did
not come until 10 months into the flight testing.
So, if you think I am intimidated by you. No, sorry. I have been in meeting after
meeting defending my modifications and have been asked "Do I want my daddy."
Although it would be nice, no, I can do this.
I don't think any 701/801 builder understands what those of us with an XL kit are
going through. Do I dislike you, No. You just don't understand me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213865#213865
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Like I always say, flying is only part of aviation, and not necessarily the
best part.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
Mr. Haas,
As for building the aircraft, I know you don't think a girl could build an
aircraft so no amount of photos or videos would ever convince you. You are
not the first and will not be the last to underestimate me.
What may surprise you is that I have never wanted to be a pilot or an
aircraft builder, it is just a step towards my dreams of building
spacecraft.
As for flying N5886Q, I don't have the license to do it here. I wish I did.
I have always admitted to having a great deal of help building it. It
started with Scott Laughlin, then Larry's website, then Andres, and Mr.
Sewell (all from the ch601.org list) Also, I would read this list often.
Actually riveting together an airframe kit is a no brainer. Figuring out
how to move a 200 pound engine from the back of the garage to the nose of an
aircraft by yourself is a little challenging, but figuring out the fuel
system, avionics and how to create an interior was much more difficult.
These were all one off. I don't know anyone with a similar panel or true
tuck and roll interior. I kinda like the look of my cowling too. Am I
proud, Yes. I really like my leading edge modification and ejector canopy
too.
At first, I figured after the airplane flew, my job was done. When the XL
started having more and more problems, it was a nightmare for me. Then, I
realized this was an opportunity of a life time. It is very challenging
and interesting to develop a flight test program for the airplane. I am
learning so much more than I ever thought I would. I am very proud that my
first squawk did not come until 10 months into the flight testing.
So, if you think I am intimidated by you. No, sorry. I have been in
meeting after meeting defending my modifications and have been asked "Do I
want my daddy." Although it would be nice, no, I can do this.
I don't think any 701/801 builder understands what those of us with an XL
kit are going through. Do I dislike you, No. You just don't understand me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213865#213865
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Sorry, no offense Steve, but I agree with Juan on this one. Simple test...
fly straight and level then cut throttle to idle while holding the elevator
steady. I promise you that ANY plane will soon be in a steep dive toward the
ground. Full power from straight and level (if your trimmed for level at
low power) and you will pitch up and climb. I thought we all knew this
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting.
> OR rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and
> desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a
> whole bunch.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
> To: ;
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>>
>> "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is
>> trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm
>> or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than
>> anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight.
>>
>> Juan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>
>>>
>>>Butting in here but,,,,
>>>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under
>>>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
>>>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
>>>Steve W.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>>>To:
>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
>>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>>>>
>>>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo
>>>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as
>>>> they
>>>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>>>>
>>>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months,
>>>> not
>>>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of
>>>> view.
>>>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
>>>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light,
>>>> and the rudder too stiff.
>>>>
>>>> Jay,
>>>>
>>>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
>>>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that
>>>> pitching
>>>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1
>>>> pitches
>>>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without
>>>> any
>>>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Back to the cable tension debate, if I may, with all the discussions of
cables and flutter I am more convinced than ever to use pushrods, and
balanced control surfaces. To me, this is a simple, logical fix. I'm not the
first person to do this, and probably not the last. pushrods never need
tension adjusting, they do not put a permanent strain on the airframe like
cables do. If there is any play from worn parts you can tell instantly on
your pre-flight.
As to balance of controls this further relieves stress on the airframe and
if I'm not mistaken helps reduce the possibility of flutter.
I frankly don't care if Zenith Inc. doesn't like this but it is obviously
very hard and embarassing for a company to admit that they could have done
better and make changes to their design, admitting to those weaknesses in
their design, so I use my own experience and compare this plane to other
designs that have done a better job on some of these issues. I didn't invent
pushrods and balanced ailerons, but I have flown some exceptional planes
that had them so why not.. I'm sure I'm not the only person to write to Mr
Heinz about this issue and the wing failure issue only to get the pat
response that "there are hundreds of these planes flying so it must be OK"
Well maybe most people don't get close to the design limits of their planes
and never find out the hard way that they are borderline in some areas and
you only get one chance to cross that line.
I still like the plane and plan to build it, but I'll fix these obvious (in
my opinion) weaknesses.
Dirk
PS Let the flames begin, I'm ready for you!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Hi Sabrina,
I promise not to ever underestimate you. Indeed, I am incredibly
impressed with you.
That said, I must take issue with your comment that riveting a kit
together is a no-brainer. I managed to destroy my first XL wing by
trying my best to follow the instructions provided by ZAC. After
scrapping it I decided to mostly ignore the kit instructions and
think through the process of building each piece into the finished
airframe. There was also much fitting and remaking of parts I
destroyed on my first attempts.
I have found the entire process of building an XL from standard kit
very educational. I have been working on mine for over three years
now (but only an hour or two per day) and I still seem to learn
something new every day.
Indeed, I think my brain is the part that has had to work the hardest
building this kit.
Best regards,
Paul
XL getting close
At 06:00 PM 11/12/2008, you wrote:
>
> You are not the first and will not be the last to underestimate me.
> Actually riveting together an airframe kit is a no brainer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to producing
atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s.
Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first aluminum
part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left
a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together
and have extra parts afterwords.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Ya, I guess nuclear reactors falling from the sky was not a very great
concern at the time.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to
producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s.
Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first
aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually
left a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine
together and have extra parts afterwords.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Dirk,
A look at 90 percent of GA aircraft, including quite few few Jets, show that
they use cables. The rods are no better than the cables. the flaw is in the
builders not following simple directions to tesnionthe cable. Maybe its becasue
cable need vigialance more so than rods. Cables need to be retightened from
time to time and maintained. Its not the cable design, its the builders. We
are the builders and its funny how people blame everything but the builders.
If I have a problem with my plane, and it is due to something I over looked or
neglected, I just look in the mirror as to placing the blame. I believe quite
comfortably the design of the aircraft is quite sound. The problems lie
in the build and most, the maintenance. Tension the cables, and swage them
correctly, and you will be fine, if cables were an issue , they wopuild not
have them on most Boeing and Airbus aircraft.
Juan
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dirk Zahtilla <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 10:00 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>Back to the cable tension debate, if I may, with all the discussions of
>cables and flutter I am more convinced than ever to use pushrods, and
>balanced control surfaces. To me, this is a simple, logical fix. I'm not the
>first person to do this, and probably not the last. pushrods never need
>tension adjusting, they do not put a permanent strain on the airframe like
>cables do. If there is any play from worn parts you can tell instantly on
>your pre-flight.
>As to balance of controls this further relieves stress on the airframe and
>if I'm not mistaken helps reduce the possibility of flutter.
>
>I frankly don't care if Zenith Inc. doesn't like this but it is obviously
>very hard and embarassing for a company to admit that they could have done
>better and make changes to their design, admitting to those weaknesses in
>their design, so I use my own experience and compare this plane to other
>designs that have done a better job on some of these issues. I didn't invent
>pushrods and balanced ailerons, but I have flown some exceptional planes
>that had them so why not.. I'm sure I'm not the only person to write to Mr
>Heinz about this issue and the wing failure issue only to get the pat
>response that "there are hundreds of these planes flying so it must be OK"
>Well maybe most people don't get close to the design limits of their planes
>and never find out the hard way that they are borderline in some areas and
>you only get one chance to cross that line.
>
>I still like the plane and plan to build it, but I'll fix these obvious (in
>my opinion) weaknesses.
>
>Dirk
>PS Let the flames begin, I'm ready for you!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Thanks DIrk,
Its called Dynamic stability. All plane fly as speed regulated by pitch (trim)
and throttle for decent and accent.(lift, weight, drag, thrust)...
I hear you on the cable vs rod debate , i think its not the design though, its
the maintenacne issue. ALot of guys building, build their planes and do not
realize the maintenance requirement involved. Cables are not set and forget.
Maybe that would be the strenght of Rods. I think where allt he accidents
have happened for the ecception of a few has been oversight on the ground. A
bolt not tightened, a cable not propoerly swaged. Someone second guessing the
plans and over torquing, etc...
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dirk Zahtilla <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 9:30 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>Sorry, no offense Steve, but I agree with Juan on this one. Simple test...
>fly straight and level then cut throttle to idle while holding the elevator
>steady. I promise you that ANY plane will soon be in a steep dive toward the
>ground. Full power from straight and level (if your trimmed for level at
>low power) and you will pitch up and climb. I thought we all knew this
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:24 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>>
>> P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting.
>> OR rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and
>> desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a
>> whole bunch.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
>> To: ;
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is
>>> trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm
>>> or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than
>>> anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight.
>>>
>>> Juan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Butting in here but,,,,
>>>>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under
>>>>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
>>>>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
>>>>Steve W.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>>>>To:
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
>>>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>>>>>
>>>>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo
>>>>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as
>>>>> they
>>>>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>>>>>
>>>>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months,
>>>>> not
>>>>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of
>>>>> view.
>>>>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
>>>>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light,
>>>>> and the rudder too stiff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay,
>>>>>
>>>>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
>>>>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that
>>>>> pitching
>>>>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1
>>>>> pitches
>>>>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without
>>>>> any
>>>>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
next time balance the prop, people tend to forget that little part.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger & Lina Hill <hills(at)sunflower.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 7:10 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>My 601HDS propeller fluttered too !!!!
>
>Then it broke off.
>
>
>
>
>
>Roger
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.T. Machin
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:49 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>
>
>Sabrina,
>
>I have to agree with Wade. Every aircraft's control system is different and
>and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not impact
>its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control surface
>deflection that originates from the stick. The deflection comes from a
>flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy. This flexing and
>storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unflexes is
>a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect. That is why stiffer
>is better when it comes to control systems.
>
>That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control
>surfaces. As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter,
>it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode. I have not heard of any
>report instances of elevator flutter. Also, any additional weight at the
>trailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter speed.
>I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does have
>less flutter margin than one without the trim system.
>
>I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons.
>
>Jim Machin
>601XL, 0-200
>Almost done!
>
>--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
>
>From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 8:24 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"I did use elevator trim."
>
>
>
>
>
>Wade,
>
>
>
>
>
>Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than
> the aileron trim.
>
>
>The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if
>properly
>
>
>tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So
>too, a
>
>
>builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
>
>
>configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim
>was a
>
>
>much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under
>Par.
>
>
>4-36, why elevator trim?
>
>
>
>
>
>As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim
>tab
>
>
>that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
>
>
>
>
>
>Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure
>ice
>
>
>does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
>
>
>rather than down to keep the ice out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Read this topic online
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "gburdett" <gburdett1(at)verizon.net> |
Yes Gig, I stand corrected.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213913#213913
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET> |
| Subject: | Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the
horizontal stab installed angle.
Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by
final placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance
inside the acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is
no need to consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for
the engine weight, is there?
Curious in Canada
Grant
601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Its ok, no offense taken. We all "discuss" what we have learned over
theyears we have been involved in this hobby.
One of my airplanes would not climb as advertised. I would fly along side
other aircraft ( same make and models) and these guys always out climbed me
by at lease 400 FPM.
One day a builder suggested I look at the upward thrust of the engine mount.
Sure enough, the engine crank shaft pointed down. Waaaay down....
Just a few washers under the bottom attach bolts took care of the problem.
Sure if the pilot reduces power the nose will drop, but not much. Just
enough to maintain the current trim speed...
I think if the power was reduced and the airplane nose went straight down,
there is a problem. On the other hand, and this example is waaay out, if
your aircraft, model X65-970, is in level, trimmed flight and the pilot goes
full throttle, and it loops....youve got a problem....
Its not trim, its not angle of incidence. It might be engine position.
Goofy aint I ????
I accept being wrong.. But if so, geeze there are a lot of student pilots
out there flying with my spew of B.S.
Hey, I m the guy who cant even get my 601XL to balance within the
envelope....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> Sorry, no offense Steve, but I agree with Juan on this one. Simple test...
> fly straight and level then cut throttle to idle while holding the
> elevator steady. I promise you that ANY plane will soon be in a steep dive
> toward the ground. Full power from straight and level (if your trimmed
> for level at low power) and you will pitch up and climb. I thought we all
> knew this
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>>
>> P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting.
>> OR rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and
>> desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a
>> whole bunch.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
>> To: ;
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is
>>> trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm
>>> or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than
>>> anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight.
>>>
>>> Juan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
>>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Butting in here but,,,,
>>>>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up
>>>>under
>>>>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the
>>>>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........
>>>>Steve W.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>>>>To:
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM
>>>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd,
>>>>>
>>>>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the
>>>>> turbo
>>>>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as
>>>>> they
>>>>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o)
>>>>>
>>>>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months,
>>>>> not
>>>>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of
>>>>> view.
>>>>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control
>>>>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too
>>>>> light,
>>>>> and the rudder too stiff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay,
>>>>>
>>>>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about
>>>>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that
>>>>> pitching
>>>>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1
>>>>> pitches
>>>>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without
>>>>> any
>>>>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Hi Juan,
I agree again with you regarding the maintenance issue of cables and I do
think this is a good reason for using pushrods as they are easy to check. A
little feel of the aileron on pre flight will tell you if there is something
loose or worn as you can feel the play. If a cable is loose from stretching
it may still have tension an you wont feel the difference. Are cable users
going to do a tension test every time they fly? I know I wouldn't so I
choose to make that problem not a possibility for me. Simple choice.
I do also believe (am I right?, I hope so.) that the bigger issue is balance
of the ailerons on this plane. As designed there is NO balancing of these
control surfaces. This drastically limits the operating speed ( and creates
most of the heavy feel of the ailerons). This web site has some very good
info and explanation on the subject PLEASE CHECK IT OUT!
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/32996-balanced-ailerons.html
Ailerons are balanced in two main ways, with weight and air pressure. Both
methods require the hinge point to be somewhere behind the leading edge of
the control surface. The XL as designed is just forward of the leading edge
and therefore cannot be balanced as is. The simplest fix (if I may use that
term) is to extend the lower skin enough to add weights to it (look at a
Cessna, this is how my 150's ailerons are balanced). The result is that
control pressure remains the same throughout the speed range of the
aircraft. Another simple method (using pressure) would be to add spades to
the ailerons.
At least this should be food for your thoughts. At best you may get a
better(safer) aircraft.
Cheers,
Dirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Yup, you are on the right track here. the horiz stab is used to change pitch
angle. If you are nose heavy it must be counteracted by down force on the
horiz stab/ elevator, efectively doubling the weight that is off balance. In
a perfect world there would be 0lbs. of downforce in straight and level
flight. Our job is to come as close as we can by balancing the weight before
flight.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
>
> I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the horizontal
> stab installed angle.
>
> Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by final
> placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance inside the
> acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is no need to
> consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for the engine
> weight, is there?
>
> Curious in Canada
> Grant
> 601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
I m thinking of a simple under the aileron mass balance.
There are a lot of airplanes that have a small hanging "spade" type
balance and it works. With the 601 ailerons being so light I m sure it
wouldn take much lead (Forward) of the hinge line to get that neutral
condition...
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
> Back to the cable tension debate, if I may, with all the discussions of
> cables and flutter I am more convinced than ever to use pushrods, and
> balanced control surfaces. To me, this is a simple, logical fix. I'm not
> the first person to do this, and probably not the last. pushrods never
> need tension adjusting, they do not put a permanent strain on the airframe
> like cables do. If there is any play from worn parts you can tell
> instantly on your pre-flight.
> As to balance of controls this further relieves stress on the airframe and
> if I'm not mistaken helps reduce the possibility of flutter.
>
> I frankly don't care if Zenith Inc. doesn't like this but it is obviously
> very hard and embarassing for a company to admit that they could have done
> better and make changes to their design, admitting to those weaknesses in
> their design, so I use my own experience and compare this plane to other
> designs that have done a better job on some of these issues. I didn't
> invent pushrods and balanced ailerons, but I have flown some exceptional
> planes that had them so why not.. I'm sure I'm not the only person to
> write to Mr Heinz about this issue and the wing failure issue only to get
> the pat response that "there are hundreds of these planes flying so it
> must be OK" Well maybe most people don't get close to the design limits of
> their planes and never find out the hard way that they are borderline in
> some areas and you only get one chance to cross that line.
>
> I still like the plane and plan to build it, but I'll fix these obvious
> (in my opinion) weaknesses.
>
> Dirk
> PS Let the flames begin, I'm ready for you!
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
But, But, but what about flying wings ? These dont have a horizontal
stablizer....
My son has a EZE that doest have a H.S. It has two flying surfaces. So
does the flying flea from the 1930s....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
> Yup, you are on the right track here. the horiz stab is used to change
> pitch angle. If you are nose heavy it must be counteracted by down force
> on the horiz stab/ elevator, efectively doubling the weight that is off
> balance. In a perfect world there would be 0lbs. of downforce in straight
> and level flight. Our job is to come as close as we can by balancing the
> weight before flight.
> Dirk
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:17 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the
>> horizontal stab installed angle.
>>
>> Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by final
>> placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance inside the
>> acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is no need to
>> consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for the engine
>> weight, is there?
>>
>> Curious in Canada
>> Grant
>> 601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Attached are renderings of a part. Given its size, is there anyone on the list
with the capability of machining it to very close tolerances from a CATIA part
file. I don't have cash, but I do have access to Engelhard silver to barter
with. I am told that it would take a 5 axis CNC mill. I am hoping that it
could be machined from a 530 x 600 x 180mm billet on a 3 axis mill white side
up, flipped and machined again green side up. Material is your choice so long
as it is stable. Any thoughts on whether the bit could reach down the side
without binding against the material remaining would be appreciated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213943#213943
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/filledqpart_186.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Stevenson <cpprhed144a(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Have you considered a casting instead of the milled part? You'd only need a
ccess to a CNC router to achieve that, then a geared head or knee mill to f
inish out the part. Would love to help you more but only have a South Bend
9A lathe and don't have a milling machine yet. However, I have done a bit o
f casting and have found that most regional casting compainies of fabricati
on shop's are more than up to such a challange.=0A=0AJWS=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____
____________________________=0AFrom: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>=0ATo:
zenith-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:45:12 AM
=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?=0A=0A--> Zenith-List
message posted by: "Sabrina" =0A=0AAttached are ren
derings of a part.- Given its size, is there anyone on the list with the
capability of machining it to very close tolerances from a CATIA part file.
- I don't have cash, but I do have access to Engelhard silver to barter w
ith.- I am told that it would take a 5 axis CNC mill.- I am hoping that
it could be machined from a 530 x 600 x 180mm billet on a 3 axis mill whit
e side up, flipped and machined again green side up.- Material is your ch
oice so long as it is stable. Any thoughts on whether the bit could reach d
own the side without binding against the material remaining would be apprec
iated.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matron
ics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213943#213943=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A=0Aht
=- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle
========================0A=0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ihab.awad(at)gmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Sabrina wrote:
> Attached are renderings of a part. Given its size, is there anyone on the list
with the capability
> of machining it to very close tolerances from a CATIA part file.
What are your tolerances? Given that you don't mind the material,
would it be adequate to make it in a 3D printer out of plastic? Some
hint of what you need it for might give people a clue as to how they
could help -- like, is this a wind tunnel model?
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Hi Grant,
What a great question!
After scratching my head for a while and reading a half dozen or so
responses, I have to come down on the side that a heavy engine does
indeed require more down force from the elevator rigging.
The reason is only partly because of the heavy engine. You are
correct that the balance issue is resolved by repositioning the
battery and other equipment. Still, a heavier engine means a heavier
empty weight. If you hold the rest of the plane to the same weight
(a crazy idea, but I don't know how to handle any other
assumption) then the lift must be more to fly level and the elevator
must cause a higher angle of attack to get this.
Paul
XL getting close
At 07:17 AM 11/13/2008, you wrote:
>I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the
>horizontal stab installed angle.
>
>Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by
>final placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance
>inside the acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is
>no need to consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for
>the engine weight, is there?
>
>Curious in Canada
>Grant
>601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Dear Ihab,
I was going to use the part to create a mold to make the "green" portion of the
rendering. 120 of those green portions assemble into a 3 meter sphere. The
gray portion was added to give a flat surface during milling of the top, green
surface. Tolerances are important but not vital. If a 3D printer could punch
out just 1, much less 120 of the attached Q parts, I would be forever grateful.
This is a just a mock up of the cockpit of N5887Q.
Off to class... (I have Wednesdays off, 1 morning class at 7AM, the rest in the
afternoon for those of you asking--it is a boarding school.)
Sabrina
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213954#213954
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/qinside_155.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/qoutside_154.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ihab.awad(at)gmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Sabrina wrote:
> If a 3D printer could punch out just 1, much less 120 of the attached Q parts,
I would be forever grateful.
:)
One thought could be to 3D print a *negative* of the part, then use it
as a mold for 120 fiberglass layups. I guess it depends on your
budget. Also, depending on your needs, 120 slabs of metal in a 3 meter
sphere could be way heavy; if you made them out of fiberglass then
stuck the borders together with epoxy or whatever, you could end up
with a lightweight yet strong part. As in, "Use the monocoque, Luke."
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
What strap? What modification? I have not heard of this. Please inform me.
Bill
**************
Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &
http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
It had to be connected to a covair motor, right?
**************
Get the
Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &
download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
Actually, it was a new prop, it broke off after 2 hours of operation,
A manufactures defect caused it to flutter (for a while) then fatigue and
break
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Juan Vega
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
next time balance the prop, people tend to forget that little part.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger & Lina Hill <hills(at)sunflower.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 7:10 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>My 601HDS propeller fluttered too !!!!
>
>Then it broke off.
>
>
>
>
>
>Roger
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.T. Machin
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:49 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>
>
>Sabrina,
>
>I have to agree with Wade. Every aircraft's control system is different
and
>and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not impact
>its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control surface
>deflection that originates from the stick. The deflection comes from a
>flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy. This flexing and
>storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unflexes is
>a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect. That is why
stiffer
>is better when it comes to control systems.
>
>That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control
>surfaces. As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter,
>it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode. I have not heard of any
>report instances of elevator flutter. Also, any additional weight at the
>trailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter
speed.
>I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does have
>less flutter margin than one without the trim system.
>
>I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons.
>
>Jim Machin
>601XL, 0-200
>Almost done!
>
>--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
>
>From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 8:24 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"I did use elevator trim."
>
>
>
>
>
>Wade,
>
>
>
>
>
>Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than
> the aileron trim.
>
>
>The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if
>properly
>
>
>tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So
>too, a
>
>
>builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
>
>
>configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim
>was a
>
>
>much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under
>Par.
>
>
>4-36, why elevator trim?
>
>
>
>
>
>As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim
>tab
>
>
>that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
>
>
>
>
>
>Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure
>ice
>
>
>does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
>
>
>rather than down to keep the ice out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Read this topic online
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Ya, I know this perfect world, and they all fly canards.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirk Zahtilla
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
Yup, you are on the right track here. the horiz stab is used to change pitch
angle. If you are nose heavy it must be counteracted by down force on the
horiz stab/ elevator, efectively doubling the weight that is off balance. In
a perfect world there would be 0lbs. of downforce in straight and level
flight. Our job is to come as close as we can by balancing the weight before
flight.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
>
> I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the horizontal
> stab installed angle.
>
> Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by final
> placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance inside the
> acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is no need to
> consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for the engine
> weight, is there?
>
> Curious in Canada
> Grant
> 601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Flydog1966(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
OK, OK, help me get off the Zenith list and onto the 701 list!
The problem I'm having is I click on the list I'm interested in,I get the
verification e-mail where I'm supposed to click on the link. Problem is it is
not bold? or blue? like other links I've seen. I click on it anyway, and
nothing happens. Yes,"disable links" is "off"
Phil
In a message dated 11/13/2008 7:12:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hills(at)sunflower.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger & Lina Hill"
Actually, it was a new prop, it broke off after 2 hours of operation,
A manufactures defect caused it to flutter (for a while) then fatigue and
break
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Juan Vega
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega
next time balance the prop, people tend to forget that little part.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger & Lina Hill <hills(at)sunflower.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 7:10 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>My 601HDS propeller fluttered too !!!!
>
>Then it broke off.
>
>
>
>
>
>Roger
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.T. Machin
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:49 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>
>
>
>
>Sabrina,
>
>I have to agree with Wade. Every aircraft's control system is different
and
>and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not impact
>its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control surface
>deflection that originates from the stick. The deflection comes from a
>flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy. This flexing and
>storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unflexes is
>a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect. That is why
stiffer
>is better when it comes to control systems.
>
>That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control
>surfaces. As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter,
>it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode. I have not heard of any
>report instances of elevator flutter. Also, any additional weight at the
>trailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter
speed.
>I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does have
>less flutter margin than one without the trim system.
>
>I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons.
>
>Jim Machin
>601XL, 0-200
>Almost done!
>
>--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote:
>
>From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 8:24 AM
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"I did use elevator trim."
>
>
>
>
>
>Wade,
>
>
>
>
>
>Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than
> the aileron trim.
>
>
>The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if
>properly
>
>
>tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So
>too, a
>
>
>builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise
>
>
>configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim
>was a
>
>
>much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under
>Par.
>
>
>4-36, why elevator trim?
>
>
>
>
>
>As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim
>tab
>
>
>that took on water/ice and threw it off balance?
>
>
>
>
>
>Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure
>ice
>
>
>does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position
>
>
>rather than down to keep the ice out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Read this topic online
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? |
| From: | jeyoung65(at)aol.com |
Noo to worry, in the 1950 we were going to put it in aircrafts.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:56 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?
One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to
producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s.
Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first
aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left
a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together
and have extra parts afterwords.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
A heavy engine does not require more down force on the elevator if the plan
e is balanced correctly.. A properly balanced standard configuration airpl
ane needs a center of mass ahead of the center of lift=2C which would produ
ce a nose down pitching force if there were no force applied from the horiz
ontal stabilizer and elevator. The Horizontal empennage surfaces provide a
downward force in order to keep rotational forces in balance. When that f
orce is diminished the nose pitches downward=2C which is what happens to a
stable airplane in a stall. The center of mass should always be in a range
relataive to the datum which keeps the Center of Mass in front of the cent
er of lift by a small margin. Too great a margin will mean that the plane w
ill be difficult to fly and may not even rotate for takeoff. Further=2C th
e stall speed is raised as the Center of Mass moves forward=2C because the
lifting surface must offset the downward force at the tail.
You need to build your airplane so the Center of Mass is within the designe
r's specs. You can do that by moving the engine closer to the firewall=2C
if possible=2C or by putting wieghts in the rear of the aircraft. It is be
tter that the weight come from equipment=2C but the weight could also come
from mere ballast. If you move your engine back=2C you may need to add som
e kind of spacer for the propeller for better handling and performance.
In my opinion it would be dangerous for a non-expert simply to make the tai
l surfaces larger=2C or to pitch them at a steeper downward angle=2C to off
set the weight of an engine. If you intend to do something like that pleas
e consult with Zenith first=2C for your own safety.> Date: Thu=2C 13 Nov 20
t: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab> > --> Zenith-List message
posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > Hi Grant=2C> > What a great quest
ion!> > After scratching my head for a while and reading a half dozen or so
> responses=2C I have to come down on the side that a heavy engine does >
indeed require more down force from the elevator rigging.> > The reason is
only partly because of the heavy engine. You are > correct that the balance
issue is resolved by repositioning the > battery and other equipment. Stil
l=2C a heavier engine means a heavier > empty weight. If you hold the rest
of the plane to the same weight > (a crazy idea=2C but I don't know how to
handle any other > assumption) then the lift must be more to fly level and
the elevator > must cause a higher angle of attack to get this.> > Paul> XL
getting close> > At 07:17 AM 11/13/2008=2C you wrote:> > >I'm confused by
the comments regarding the engine mass and the> >horizontal stab installed
angle.> >> >Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction
by> >final placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance> >i
nside the acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is> >no need
to consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for> >the engine we
ight=2C is there?> >> >Curious in Canada> >Grant> >601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows=AE connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are p
art of your life
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnDRead(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Flying wings normally have a reflexed airfoil to counteract the rotating
moment of the airfoil. One of the flying surfaces of an airplane such as the
flying flea provides this.
Balance is a different issue altogether. Moving the angle of the stab to
counterbalance an out of balance airplane is not possible. The airframe has
to be balanced statically about the CG, by balancing the mass of the
airframe, this is typically at 30% chord on a parallel chord such as the CH701.
If
the wings have taper then the CG is typically at the Mean Aerodynamic Chord
point. This is how the CG of a flying wing would be calculated.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:20:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steve"
But, But, but what about flying wings ? These dont have a horizontal
stablizer....
My son has a EZE that doest have a H.S. It has two flying surfaces. So
does the flying flea from the 1930s....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
> Yup, you are on the right track here. the horiz stab is used to change
> pitch angle. If you are nose heavy it must be counteracted by down force
> on the horiz stab/ elevator, efectively doubling the weight that is off
> balance. In a perfect world there would be 0lbs. of downforce in straight
> and level flight. Our job is to come as close as we can by balancing the
> weight before flight.
> Dirk
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:17 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'm confused by the comments regarding the engine mass and the
>> horizontal stab installed angle.
>>
>> Isn't the engine mass counter-balanced during the construction by final
>> placement of the battery(s) to maintain the Weight & Balance inside the
>> acceptable envelope? Once this is accomplished there is no need to
>> consider "adjusting" the horizontal stab to account for the engine
>> weight, is there?
>>
>> Curious in Canada
>> Grant
>> 601 HDS / CAM100 (heavy but worth it)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
**************Get movies delivered to your mailbox. One month free from
blockbuster.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... |
As of the 13th, the Fund Raiser is currently about 30% behind last year in terms
of the number of Contributions. Yet, oddly the number of messages posted per
day is up by 10 to 20% on the average. It costs real money to run these Lists
and they are supported 100% though your Contributions during the Fund Raiser.
Won't you please take a minute right now to make your Contribution to keep
these Lists up and running?
Contribution Page:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mversteeg <maarten.versteeg(at)swri.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 11/12/08 |
Hello Paul,
I agree, and although complex panels seem to attract some, I like the clean
panels. I also know that experimental - amateur built airplanes don't fall
under all the rules. But on the other hand I have heard stories where
the DAR
sometimes is very specific (remember the whiskey compass discussion).
I hope you will have a DAR that accepts this and sees the sense of you
argument.
Regards,
Maarten,
plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing
> From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wires and fuses and such
>
>
> Hi Maarten,
>
> I guess the regulation you cited explains why so many panels are
> crowded with circuit breakers. In their great wisdom, the FAA seems
> to have dictated that solution.
>
> Fortunately, I don't think part 23 regulations apply to experimental
> - amateur built airplanes. This may be one of many examples of the
> notion that the FAA regulations are overly restrictive on certified planes.
>
> To directly answer your question, my plans are to limit my flights to
> Day/VFR. I suspect I could safely conduct such flights without any
> electrical equipment operating at all. The only really essential
> piece of electrical gear is the starter motor. My Jabiru is not
> likely to start any other way.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
Grant,
You have an HDS. Bryan, Scott and I used XL plans or kit. From my comparison
of the HDS vs. XL, the XL decreased the decalage. Then the 650 increased the
decalage. All Bryan, Scott and I did was increase the decalage of our aircraft
to a range similar to that built into your HDS and the new 650s. The factory
shifts the wing, we shift the H stab.
Other than an HD series used for aerobatics, I don't know of a single 600 series
with the increased (I would call nominal) decalage that has had a structural
failure. We have had this argument before, but it was prior to the increase
in the 650's decalage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214193#214193
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
I agree with you on all counts but, the airplane also has to be built
with the proper decalage between the wing and stabilizer. In my case,
the CG was within the acceptable range and I still could not trim it
out. With the CG near the aft limit I was just able to trim it with
full tab deflection. With my aerospace engineering education, I
determined that the solution to this situation was to re-pitch the
stabilizer. I had somehow got the decalage slightly off during
construction. It worked and my test flights after the correction
showed the airplane had adequate pitch stability.
If we were all building our airplanes in identical rigging fixtures
they would all be rigged the same. Since each one is hand built by a
different individual, you can expect slight differences in the final
product. It should be no surprise that the need for some small
corrections might be found during the phase 1 testing.
On Nov 13, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Frank Roskind wrote:
> A heavy engine does not require more down force on the elevator if
> the plane is balanced correctly.. A properly balanced standard
> configuration airplane needs a center of mass ahead of the center of
> lift, which would produce a nose down pitching force if there were
> no force applied from the horizontal stabilizer and elevator. The
> Horizontal empennage surfaces provide a downward force in order to
> keep rotational forces in balance. When that force is diminished
> the nose pitches downward, which is what happens to a stable
> airplane in a stall. The center of mass should always be in a range
> relataive to the datum which keeps the Center of Mass in front of
> the center of lift by a small margin. Too great a margin will mean
> that the plane will be difficult to fly and may not even rotate for
> takeoff. Further, the stall speed is raised as the Center of Mass
> moves forward, because the lifting surface must offset the downward
> force at the tail.
>
> You need to build your airplane so the Center of Mass is within the
> designer's specs. You can do that by moving the engine closer to
> the firewall, if possible, or by putting wieghts in the rear of the
> aircraft. It is better that the weight come from equipment, but the
> weight could also come from mere ballast. If you move your engine
> back, you may need to add some kind of spacer for the propeller for
> better handling and performance.
>
> In my opinion it would be dangerous for a non-expert simply to make
> the tail surfaces larger, or to pitch them at a steeper downward
> angle, to offset the weight of an engine. If you intend to do
> something like that please consult with Zenith first, for your own
> safety.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 11/12/08 |
Hi Maarten,
I don't want to get into a regulation interpretation battle, but I
will if I must.
As I understand the regs and DAR history, the compass issue is
completely separate from the part 23 question. Part 23 clearly
doesn't apply to Experimental airplanes. Experimental airplanes do
require a compass. The issue I have heard discussed is whether the
compass must be a whiskey compass or if one of the new-fangled
electrical devices like the one found on the Dynon EFIS is sufficient
to meet this need.
I think the electrical compass is really satisfactory to meet the
requirements, but some builders have run into this issue with their
DAR and decided a cheap automotive whiskey compass was an easy way to
get past an old fashioned DAR.
From a strictly practical point of view, it makes sense that you
need to be able to figure what direction you are going under all
circumstances - including electrical failure. The same argument
doesn't apply to trying to trouble-shoot electrical problems while
still in flight.
Best regards,
Paul
XL getting close
At 07:10 AM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
>Hello Paul,
>
>I agree, and although complex panels seem to attract some, I like the clean
>panels. I also know that experimental - amateur built airplanes don't fall
>under all the rules. But on the other hand I have heard stories where the DAR
>sometimes is very specific (remember the whiskey compass discussion).
>I hope you will have a DAR that accepts this and sees the sense of you
>argument.
>
>Regards,
> Maarten,
> plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Swinford" <grs-pms(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Mean Aerodynamic Chord |
John Read, and others:
"Mean Aerodynamic Chord" is a length, rather than a point. For an
untapered wing, the MAC is the length of the chord measured anywhere
along the span. For a tapered planform the MAC is found at a spanwise
location where the chord is sort of an average of all the chord lengths.
On a wing with simple taper this is easily determined. For a planform
with sweep and multiple tapers, typical of modern airliners, it becomes
a bit more complicated.
I think the point to which you refer is the so-called "aerodynamic
center", which is found on the MAC at a distance equaling approximately
25 percent of the MAC aft of the leading edge. The acceptable range of
center of gravity locations is usually expressed in percent of MAC; for
a particular airplane it might be from 10 percent to 30 percent. The
acceptable CG range depends on a number of design features, one of the
most powerful being the tendency of the wing to pitch or rotate about
its spanwise axis. This tendency must be counteracted by other forces
on the airplane, largely by a down force generated by the horizontal
tail.
The popular old NACA 23000 series airfoils (23012, 23015 etc) were
designed to have a low pitching moment. Symmetrical airfoil sections
(for example 23000) have zero pitching moment and have often been used
on helicopter blades and aerobatic airplanes for that reason.
Incidentally, "symmetrical" means identical, top and bottom. Some refer
to an airfoil as symmetrical just because it has some curvature on the
lower surface, but this is incorrect.
You are correct in noting that flying wings typically use an airfoil
section which has a reflexed trailing edge. This reduces the pitching
tendency to near zero and deflection of the trailing edge surfaces does
the rest. You are also correct in noting that changing the incidence of
the stabilizer is not the way to correct a static balance situation,
although it will have an effect on the overall static stability.
I hope this helps generate light, rather than heat.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mean Aerodynamic Chord |
Right On !
----- Original Message -----
From: George Swinford
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Mean Aerodynamic Chord
John Read, and others:
"Mean Aerodynamic Chord" is a length, rather than a point. For an
untapered wing, the MAC is the length of the chord measured anywhere
along the span. For a tapered planform the MAC is found at a spanwise
location where the chord is sort of an average of all the chord lengths.
On a wing with simple taper this is easily determined. For a planform
with sweep and multiple tapers, typical of modern airliners, it becomes
a bit more complicated.
I think the point to which you refer is the so-called "aerodynamic
center", which is found on the MAC at a distance equaling approximately
25 percent of the MAC aft of the leading edge. The acceptable range of
center of gravity locations is usually expressed in percent of MAC; for
a particular airplane it might be from 10 percent to 30 percent. The
acceptable CG range depends on a number of design features, one of the
most powerful being the tendency of the wing to pitch or rotate about
its spanwise axis. This tendency must be counteracted by other forces
on the airplane, largely by a down force generated by the horizontal
tail.
The popular old NACA 23000 series airfoils (23012, 23015 etc) were
designed to have a low pitching moment. Symmetrical airfoil sections
(for example 23000) have zero pitching moment and have often been used
on helicopter blades and aerobatic airplanes for that reason.
Incidentally, "symmetrical" means identical, top and bottom. Some refer
to an airfoil as symmetrical just because it has some curvature on the
lower surface, but this is incorrect.
You are correct in noting that flying wings typically use an airfoil
section which has a reflexed trailing edge. This reduces the pitching
tendency to near zero and deflection of the trailing edge surfaces does
the rest. You are also correct in noting that changing the incidence of
the stabilizer is not the way to correct a static balance situation,
although it will have an effect on the overall static stability.
I hope this helps generate light, rather than heat.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
I just finished installing my aileron trim, and when I tested it, I can only
get a total of 40 degrees of deflection. According to the plans, I should
be able to get 50 degrees of deflection (25 up and 25 down). Adjusting the
length of the control rod only changes the distribution of the 40 degrees
between up and down - it does not increase the total deflection. I checked
that the servo was working correctly, which it was (.7" travel per specs).
I also checked that there was no binding of the control rod clevis with the
trim tab horn angle. The only thing I could find was that the center of the
control rod mounting hole in the horn angle was 13 mm up from the flange
instead of the 12 mm specified in the plans. I find it hard to believe that
1 mm would cause a 10 degree loss in deflection.
Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what did you do to
resolve?
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL - tail done, flaps done, working on ailerons
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
Looks like the difference between 12mm and 13mm would be about 1.7 degrees at the
.7 travel. I didn't calculate what it would be out at the tip of the trim
tab, don't have the dimension handy.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214324#214324
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Vetterli <richvetterli(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | I've moved to FLAG (and you can too) |
Attention Northern California (SF Bay Area) builders.
After building in my garage for the past four years,
I've moved my project to "First Light Aviation Group"
(FLAG) in Livermore, California, adjacent to the
Livermore Airport (lvk). FLAG has individual building
bays, each one complete with plenty of power,
compressed air, large locking tool boxs, work tables,
shelves and a pallet rack for large parts. FLAG also
supplies large tools (drill press, shear, brake, etc)
with convenient bathrooms, vending machines, fridge
and microwave. And, it's available 24/7. In the
lobby is a retail store with pilot supplies and
building supplies. A large meeting room upstairs
rounds out the facility. I found that when I moved my
airplane to FLAG, I was able to work in the company of
fellow builders/pilots and without the distractions of
building at home. Now I'm confident that I'll get my
plane flying in short order. No one asked me to post
this and I'm not affiliated with FLAG, I'm just a
happy customer. Check it out at www.flaglvk.com
Rich Vetterli
601XL/Corvair
95% done, 95% to go
Check out my progress at www.geocities.com/stixx5a
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Balanced and better flight controls |
| From: | "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> |
Just read this in the Zenith flyer
Much work was done to the controls, which are now more balanced for better feel.
"The 650 LS's airframe structure and flying characteristics are now more like
an FAR 23 type aircraft," said AMD Sales Director John Degonia. "Flying schools
and pilots who were looking at buying an FAR 23 aircraft have now committed
to the 650."
So what have they changed in the 650 re controls???? to make it balanced and better????
Chris.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214333#214333
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: I've moved to FLAG (and you can too) |
I am Green with Envy!
Paul
XL getting close
in desperate need of hangar/runway
Camas, WA
At 10:46 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
>I've moved my project to "First Light Aviation Group"
>(FLAG) in Livermore, California
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
make another horn and put the hole closer in.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave VanLanen <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2008 11:28 PM
>To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection
>
>I just finished installing my aileron trim, and when I tested it, I can only
>get a total of 40 degrees of deflection. According to the plans, I should
>be able to get 50 degrees of deflection (25 up and 25 down). Adjusting the
>length of the control rod only changes the distribution of the 40 degrees
>between up and down - it does not increase the total deflection. I checked
>that the servo was working correctly, which it was (.7" travel per specs).
>I also checked that there was no binding of the control rod clevis with the
>trim tab horn angle. The only thing I could find was that the center of the
>control rod mounting hole in the horn angle was 13 mm up from the flange
>instead of the 12 mm specified in the plans. I find it hard to believe that
>1 mm would cause a 10 degree loss in deflection.
>Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what did you do to
>resolve?
>
>Thanks,
>Dave Van Lanen
>601XL - tail done, flaps done, working on ailerons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <grant.corriveau(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Ah! Thanks, Sabrina,
I had to stop and research my aeronautical lexicon for 'decalage'
but wikki came through (for anyone else who needs to refresh their
theory of flight brain cells as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Decalage)
Now your discussion on the topic makes perfect sense. Thanks again,
Happy Spaceship building,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Thanks Bryan,
Your discussion of this adjustment makes more sense to me now. I
found that the final setting of the ailerons to be very ambiguous as
well, and I wonder if that also contributes to the differences in
individual aircraft. I originally found my aircraft flew a little
nose-high in cruise. I tweaked both my ailerons down a degree or two
(barely noticeable visually) and it improved the situation. My stall
speed is now pretty close to the 'book' value as well.
All this gets me thinking of ways to further improve the STOL
performance of my 601 (it'll never be a speed Queen and that's not
what I bought it for anyway.) So I might as well tweak the STOL end
of the envelope. I'll soon be adding the VGs as recorded in the
online videos by Viktor (search youtube for this video: 0TPLa50Dvzg)
Happy testing
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
601XL - Aileron Trim Tab DeflectionHi Dave, the 12 vs 13mm hole
placement causes a 8% reduction in movement or 46 vs 50 deg. If you also
shifted the location toward the trailing edge of the trim tab this could
easily account for the rest of the error. With these small parts small
errors add up fast. Do like Juan says if your not ok with 40 deg. and
make a new control horn. No big...
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave VanLanen
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com ; zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection
I just finished installing my aileron trim, and when I tested it, I
can only get a total of 40 degrees of deflection. According to the
plans, I should be able to get 50 degrees of deflection (25 up and 25
down). Adjusting the length of the control rod only changes the
distribution of the 40 degrees between up and down - it does not
increase the total deflection. I checked that the servo was working
correctly, which it was (.7" travel per specs). I also checked that
there was no binding of the control rod clevis with the trim tab horn
angle. The only thing I could find was that the center of the control
rod mounting hole in the horn angle was 13 mm up from the flange instead
of the 12 mm specified in the plans. I find it hard to believe that 1
mm would cause a 10 degree loss in deflection.
Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what did you do
to resolve?
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL - tail done, flaps done, working on ailerons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Adustment |
Good point to bring up. The ailerons do make a big change in the airfoil's
performance (thats their job). Dropping them like you say will lower stall
speed and also cruise speed. raising them does the opposite. When I did the
last annual on my C-150 they were found to be a couple degrees low. When I
got them up where they should be I picked up almost 5mph. at cruise (at
7000-8000msl). If I went up another 2 deg. it might go faster but like your
situation stall speed would be going up as well.
This is a good thing to add to flight testing. Starting at neutral and
adjusting up and down within about +-3 deg. max. and getting performance
numbers.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.NET>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
>
>
> Thanks Bryan,
>
> Your discussion of this adjustment makes more sense to me now. I found
> that the final setting of the ailerons to be very ambiguous as well, and
> I wonder if that also contributes to the differences in individual
> aircraft. I originally found my aircraft flew a little nose-high in
> cruise. I tweaked both my ailerons down a degree or two (barely
> noticeable visually) and it improved the situation. My stall speed is
> now pretty close to the 'book' value as well.
>
> All this gets me thinking of ways to further improve the STOL performance
> of my 601 (it'll never be a speed Queen and that's not what I bought it
> for anyway.) So I might as well tweak the STOL end of the envelope.
> I'll soon be adding the VGs as recorded in the online videos by Viktor
> (search youtube for this video: 0TPLa50Dvzg)
>
> Happy testing
> Grant
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Adustment |
Hi Guys,
Watch out for one of the real "Gotchyas" here.
For aircraft control in the stall it is very important that the wing
roots stall before the tips. This gives you aileron control and
makes for a nice straight forward stall. If you adjust the ailerons
too much you could take this beyond the good control point and make
your plane very hard to control in the stall.
There is a small amount of "Wash out" built into the ailerons to keep
them flying when the wing root stalls. I doubt this is enough to
keep them flying longer than the root of they are adjusted too far to
"Increase the stall speed" as mentioned in this thread.
This is a similar trick to adjusting the flaps to a negative
displacement to reduce lift, increase speed, and increase the stall
speed a little. You can't do this much because of the hinge
location. Even so, increasing the stall speed at the flaps has
little control implications. The ailerons are whole different kettle of fish.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:46 AM 11/15/2008, you wrote:
>Good point to bring up. The ailerons do make a big change in the
>airfoil's performance (thats their job). Dropping them like you say
>will lower stall speed and also cruise speed. raising them does the
>opposite. When I did the last annual on my C-150 they were found to
>be a couple degrees low. When I got them up where they should be I
>picked up almost 5mph. at cruise (at 7000-8000msl). If I went up
>another 2 deg. it might go faster but like your situation stall
>speed would be going up as well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Stevenson <cpprhed144a(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Hah! I had to do the same thing myself as I couldn=A2t remember what it mea
nt either. -Undoubtedly we=A2ll all be building away on a project a few y
ears from now and be interrupted by a news story of some young aeronautical
engineer=A2s flight testing of a new design ground to orbit shuttle craft.
=0AJWS=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Grant Corriv
eau =0ATo: zenith-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Sat
urday, November 15, 2008 9:39:40 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engin
grant.corriveau(at)telus.net>=0A=0AAh! Thanks, Sabrina,=0A=0AI had to stop and
research my aeronautical lexicon for 'decalage'- but wikki came through
(for anyone else who needs to refresh their theory of flight brain cells as
well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decalage)=0A=0ANow your discussion on
the topic makes perfect sense.- Thanks again,=0A=0AHappy Spaceship buildi
ng,=0AGrant=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Attaching the Axles |
| From: | "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net> |
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the axle
flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the wheel
installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Attaching the Axles |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Larry,
I tried to locate the pads to minimize the work on the gear legs.? I just slightly
rounded the end corners of the gear legs.? I have attached a couple of drawings
that I used to determine the location and orientation. The drawings are
to scale; but to ensure the scale, the two random short lines ? must be exactly
10" apart.? Let me know if you have questions.
-----Original Message-----
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 5:26 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Attaching the Axles
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the
axle flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the
wheel installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Attaching the Axles |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Oops!? Forgot to attach photos.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 5:26 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Attaching the Axles
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the
axle flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the
wheel installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | The Keeners <kim.forest(at)surewest.net> |
| Subject: | 601XL Tail and Wing Kit for Sale |
Dear Listers:
I have a Zodiac 601XL Tail (stab complete and elevator almost complete)
and Wing Kit (not started) with standard tanks, fuel system kit, baggage
lockers, landing lights, position lights, etc. All clecos, tools,
bits, etc.$4,000.00 takes all. Financial situation forces sale. Come
and get it....
Forest K.
Rocklin, CA (Sacramento Area)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Balanced and better flight controls |
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
Go to the zenith builders site, there is a list there of the changes.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214438#214438
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
I ditto what Juan says. Just make a new part and let's all stop over analyzing
this.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214439#214439
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question.
Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides
for the very expensive, commercial-grade T1 Internet connection used on
the List insuring maximum performance and minimal contention when accessing
List services. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades
enabling the highest performance possible for services such as the Archive Search
Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for 19+ years worth of online archive
data available for instant random search and access. And, it offsets the
many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications
that power this List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums,
Wiki and PhotoShare.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation,
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It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many aspects of these valuable
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one of the best investments you can make in your Sport...
List Contribution Web Site:
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Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau) |
Grant,
I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise in my 701. I dropped
the flaperons a small amount and the nose came down and I picked up
about 2 mph.
Chuck D.
N701TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau) |
On my Kitfox 2, the flapperons were primarily used to trim the plane,
according to the flight manual.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:01 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
Grant,
I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise in my 701. I dropped the
flaperons a small amount and the nose came down and I picked up about 2 mph.
Chuck D.
N701TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau) |
OK, my stupid factor is in high gear today.- I'm having difficulty with t
he flap switch wiring as shown on 6B-20.- I've attached a copy.- Somebo
dy help me out, as I can't seem to get it right.- I see that the black wi
re from the flap motor goes to the #1 lug.- Red goes to number 3 lug.-
Ground goes to #2.- Hot wire from the buss goes to 5 Beyond that I get co
nfused.- I've attached the diagram.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Pagan
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Chuck Deiterich wrote:
From: Chuck Deiterich <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
Grant,
-
I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise
in my 701.- I dropped the flaperons a small amount and the nose came down
and I picked up about 2 mph.-
-
Chuck D.
N701TX
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Flap Switch Wiring |
Sorry forgot to change the subject line on the below message.
Bill Pagan
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Bill Pagan wrote:
From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corrivea
u)
Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 3:35 PM
OK, my stupid factor is in high gear today.- I'm having difficulty with t
he flap switch wiring as shown on 6B-20.- I've attached a copy.- Somebo
dy help me out, as I can't seem to get it right.- I see that the black wi
re from the flap motor goes to the #1 lug.- Red goes to number 3 lug.-
Ground goes to #2.- Hot wire from the buss goes to 5 Beyond that I get co
nfused.- I've attached the diagram.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Pagan
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Chuck Deiterich wrote:
From: Chuck Deiterich <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
Grant,
-
I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise
in my 701.- I dropped the flaperons a small amount and the nose came down
and I picked up about 2 mph.-
-
Chuck D.
N701TX
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
Thanks for everyone's input to my question. Sorry if it caused any discord
in the group - that was not my intention.
Dave
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
I ditto what Juan says. Just make a new part and let's all stop over
analyzing
this.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Flap Switch Wiring |
OK, the note above the schematic that says "Circuit is shown for flaps up:
the worm gear is in the retracted position shutting off the up limit micro
sw". But the schematic shows the up-limit switch closed, not open. So they
contradict each other. I think the schematic either shows the system in the
full down position or is wrong. It all depends on which way the motor turns
when red is positive or black is positive. Since I only currently have the
new-style sealed flap motor I can't test this for you. But as shown if you
moved the toggle to connect lugs 1-2 and lugs 4-5 nothing will happen
because the "down" switch is open, breaking the circuit from lug 4. If you
move the toggle to connect lugs 2-3 and 5-6 the motor will turn until the
"up" switch gets hit and breaks the circuit from lug 6.
Anyway the red wire goes to lug 3 on the toggle switch AND the common lug on
the "down" limit micro-switch (the one towards the rear of the plane and
away from the electric motor). Likewise the black wire goes to lug 1 and the
"normally closed" lug (marked "NC") on the flap-up limit switch (towards the
front of the plane and the electric motor)
In all four wires have to run from the flap actuator to the toggle switch on
your panel. The remaining two wires are:
- a wire from the common lug on the "up" limit switch to lug 6 on the toggle
on the panel
- a wire from the normally closed ("NC") lug on the "down limit" switch to
lug 4 on the toggle on the panel.
BE VERY CARFUL with the screw terminals on the limit switches. The plastic
cases are fragile. Don't try to bend the lugs.
Basically for either direction the toggle on the panel and the appropriate
limit switch are wired in series. So the motor will only move as long as
both are closed. Release the toggle or hit the limit switch and the motor
stops.
Test wire half the system (like just the "moving down" direction) and try it
with a car battery. You can flip the micro-switch by hand before the
traveler reaches it to see if the switch will actually stop the travel.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Pagan
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
OK, my stupid factor is in high gear today. I'm having difficulty with the
flap switch wiring as shown on 6B-20. I've attached a copy. Somebody help
me out, as I can't seem to get it right. I see that the black wire from the
flap motor goes to the #1 lug. Red goes to number 3 lug. Ground goes to
#2. Hot wire from the buss goes to 5 Beyond that I get confused. I've
attached the diagram.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Pagan
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Chuck Deiterich wrote:
From: Chuck Deiterich <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
Grant,
I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise in my 701. I dropped the
flaperons a small amount and the nose came down and I picked up about 2 mph.
Chuck D.
N701TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau) |
Hi Bill,
The trick to understanding DPDT switches like the toggle switch used
in the flaps is to know which circuits close when you move the
handle. With this switch in the center position (where it rests with
no user pushing) none of the circuits are closed. When you push the
switch up the bottom output is connected to the center. When you
push the switch down the top output pins are connected to the center pins.
The circuit operation depends on the use of the "NO" pins on the
microswitches. These are "Normally Open". When the mechanical gizmo
moves to operate the limit switch it changes the outputs so the
"NO" pins become connected to the Common pin and the "NC" pin
becomes disconnected from the Common. Opening the NC pin disconnects
the power from the motor so the motion is "Limited".
You need to figure out which pins are normally closed, common, and
normally open on the SPDT microswitches. Then you can wire up the
whole thing and it actually works. You might be able to tell by
seeing marks on the microswitches, and you can certainly tell with an
ohm-meter.
I hope this helps. If you still don't get it please describe the
problem you are having and I might be able to figure out what is wrong.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
Retarded (oops, I mean retired) Electrical Engineer
At 12:35 PM 11/16/2008, you wrote:
>OK, my stupid factor is in high gear today. I'm having difficulty
>with the flap switch wiring as shown on 6B-20. I've attached a
>copy. Somebody help me out, as I can't seem to get it right. I see
>that the black wire from the flap motor goes to the #1 lug. Red
>goes to number 3 lug. Ground goes to #2. Hot wire from the buss
>goes to 5 Beyond that I get confused. I've attached the diagram.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Bill Pagan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau) |
| From: | "leinad" <leinad(at)hughes.net> |
Bill,
The idea behind that circuit is that it reverses the polarity going to the motor.
One direction and ground is connected to the black and power to the red, push
the switch other way and you have the reverse situation. You could hook it
up without the limit switches at all and it would still work, but you wouldn't
have a switch killing the power when you get to the end of the stroke. Where
the schematic shows the wire as if joined in the middle you can hook to either
end. You just need wire joining the described lug on the switch to either
the motor or the limit switch side that then has a wire going to the motor.
I think it will help you if you imagine the circuit without the limit switches.
Hope this helps.
Dan
[quote] ="pdn8r(at)yahoo.com"]OK, my stupid factor is in high gear today. I'm
having difficulty with the flap switch wiring as shown on 6B-20. I've attached
a copy. Somebody help me out, as I can't seem to get it right. I see that
the black wire from the flap motor goes to the #1 lug. Red goes to number 3 lug.
Ground goes to #2. Hot wire from the buss goes to 5 Beyond that I get confused.
I've attached the diagram.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Pagan
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Chuck Deiterich wrote:
> From: Chuck Deiterich
> Subject: Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
> To: "zenith-list"
> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
>
> Grant,
>
> I noticed I was flying slightly nose up in cruise in my 701. I dropped the
flaperons a small amount and the nose came down and I picked up about 2 mph.
>
> Chuck D.
> N701TX
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214607#214607
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | burbby <burbby(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | electrical switches / curcuit breakers |
Its getting time to start planning the Electrical curcuits my plane.--
I am looking at the circuit breaker/ switch to act as both Switch and circu
it breaker also.-
-
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pbcircuitbrkr.php-- W31 S
eries
-
Has anyone had a problem using this method?-- Pros. or cons--
Any ideas?
-
Gary Bassham
(N7601) resereved
Millsap, Tx
-
-=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Flap Switch Wiring Diagram |
I have a flap switch wiring diagram on a web page at
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/flap_switch.html
or you can use this tiny link (for a few days)
http://tinyurl.com/5owktt
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (registered)
601XL/TD, Corvair, finishing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
| From: | japhillipsga(at)aol.com |
Dear 601XL Builders and Flyers, my eyes have been opened to an issue. All this
talk about flutter and cables, etc., led me to buy a tensionmeter and check the
cables in my XL. Wow was I surprised! The aileron cables were at 17 pounds and
the elevator at below 10 pounds. By ZAC they should have been 30 & 40 pds.
I reset them and flew. I was pleased at the difference in control and response.
Now before you think "that just can't happen to me"?I set my cables with my
hands plucking them, seemed good and tight.I have tightened mine twice since I
built her. No body has "calibrated" fingers. I alert you all and?hope everybody
will check their cables. I had flutter a couple years ago that scared the poop
out of me. Don't want it again or that anybody should be lost because of it.
The cable tester cost about $190. How much does having a wing come off cost?
Best wishes, Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300 140 hours?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: electrical switches / curcuit breakers |
| From: | "Ken" <hror1(at)pld.com> |
I'm not the voice of experience yet but I'm almost done wiring and I'll list some
considerations I had. The major downside is cost. I have several 3 amp breakers
on my panel and as you will note they are the most expensive on the entire
list. In my case I had to go back and replace a couple with a higher amperage
and now have breakers laying on the table which I won't use. Since I went
with w58's that isn't a big hit. Another downside is -- is there any visual
indication if they are tripped? (I don't know the answer.) A part of my goal
was the very minimum exposure of wires that could short while unprotected. If
you use a combination switch/breaker you either have to have it close to the
buss bar (maximum protection but possibly inconvenient location) or else have
a unprotected hot wire going to your switch/breaker(which you located conveniently).
On the plus side is a lot of convenience. They take up much less space.
You don't have to worry about the quality of your crimps between a breaker
and your switch and save you the labor of wiring a separate switch.
Its getting time to start planning the Electrical curcuits my plane.
I am looking at the circuit breaker/ switch to act as both Switch and circuit breaker
also.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pbcircuitbrkr.php W31 Series
Has anyone had a problem using this method? Pros. or cons
Any ideas?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214680#214680
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical switches / curcuit breakers |
That's my intention also. I think most people don't do it because they
cost a lot more. I like the concept of using one part instead of 2 to do
the job.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: burbby
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:44 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: electrical switches / curcuit breakers
Its getting time to start planning the Electrical curcuits my
plane.
I am looking at the circuit breaker/ switch to act as both
Switch and circuit breaker also.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pbcircuitbrkr.php
W31 Series
Has anyone had a problem using this method? Pros. or cons
Any ideas?
Gary Bassham
(N7601) resereved
Millsap, Tx
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Thatcher" <s_thatcher(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | 9 Hour X-Country, engine purred, cables loosened! |
Here is a rundown of my 9 hour x-country last month from Palm Beach
Gardens, FL to Andrews, NC. It's only a 700 mile (statute) flight but I
had headwinds and I kept the speed below 100 mph the entire trip. I put
40 pounds of baggage in the rear baggage area in order to help keep the
nose up without using full trim during flight. And it worked
beautifully. To alleviate my heavy left wing, I kept 12 gallons in the
right wing, 30 lbs baggage in the right locker, and 6 gallons in the
left wing. Now I could fly hands off most of the trip.
When I left Palm Beach Gardens, the aileron cables were tight although I
didn't use a tensionometer to measure the tautness of the cables. My
first stop was in Sebring for lunch. On takeoff, the left canopy lock
unlatched. After Jay's experience, I throttled back and made a 500'
pattern and retuned to land. Reseated the latch and again took off.
Because of light turbulence (heavy in these LSA's), and strong headwinds
with gusts, I decided to call it quits fairly early on Saturday
afternoon and spend the night in Ocala, FL. I asked the FBO to tie down
the aircraft and I headed to the Motel.
The next morning, I loaded the aircraft similar to above and noted that
the tie downs were extremely tight. I would say at least 50-100 lbs of
force were used to tie the wings down. At the time, I thought that was
a good idea because of the gusty conditions but later wondered what
affect the negative load had on the lower spar cap. A quick and dirty
analysis indicated that the bending moments of 1100 ft-lbs (old school)
would equate to a small 200 lb load at the center of the wing. That's
about 0.25 g negative. Nothing to worry about. At least yet.
The next 6 hours were spent cruising around 4500 feet and landing at
several locations for fuel. My first stop was at Tellfair-Wheeler in
Georgia and to my surprise, they had no fuel and were completely
unattended. So I made a short hop to Dublin and re-fueled there.
Talked to a fellow who worked at the AMD factory and he mentioned I
needed to look at the bearing covers on the wheels when I get a chance.
He also spoke very favorably about the quality of workmanship and he
really enjoyed the sound of that Corvair engine.
Next stop was to be Habersham at the foothills just south of Andrews,
NC. But, while I was now at 6500 feet, it was very difficult to descend
to land and make that long climb back up to altitude all over again so I
decided to just continue over the mountains to Andrews.
It was about now that I noticed a slight difference in the feel of the
ailerons. I could move the stick left and right about an inch without
any movement of the ailerons themselves. As anyone knows when you fly
over open water, the engine will invariably make small noises that you
have never heard before just about the time you reach a point of
no-return. And it is also true when flying over mountains, ailerons
will start to buzz, cables feel like they are no longer attached and the
engine starts making noises not heard before... you know the slight
decrease in rpm that lasts about a thousandth of a second and causes
your heart to momentarily stop.
30 minutes later I was pushing N601EL into my hangar in Andrews, NC.
Other than directly over the mountains, she flew well and the engine ran
exceptionally. My G-Meter showed that I had only experienced a 1.7 G
positive and 0.4 G negative for the entire trip. But now I wanted to
know what was going on with the cables. I pulled the seats out and ran
my hand over the aileron cables and noticed they seemed much looser than
when they were installed. Then I found the balance cable and it was
limp... no tension at all.
I immediately ordered a Tensionometer from ACS and when I checked the
cable tensions, here is what I discovered. Rudder Cable: 12-15 lbs.
Aileron Cable: 10 lbs. Balance Cable: 0 (not measurable). Elevator
cable: 10-12 lbs. Now what worried me was, "How does an aileron and
balance cable become so loose in so short a time?" The only way I could
think of was that the bellcrank moved or the wing geometry changed, both
of which gave me a chill! But neither of these things occurred. I
checked the fairleads and they were still in place. And all nicopress
fittings were still attached and turnbuckes still safetied.
So I plan to re-tighten to the new specs of 40/30/22 +/- 5 (Elevator,
Aileron, Rudder respectively) and recheck the lower spar cap and the rib
attachment of the bellcrank. Anyone have any other ideas? From my
experience though, check those cable tensions often because they
seemingly loosen up without any reason! N601EL now has 25 hours of
total time.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with WW Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, http://placestofly.com, http://eaa203.com,
http://mykitlog.com/sdthatcher
Webmaster: http://zenvair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 9 Hour X-Country, engine purred, cables loosened! |
Scott,
I'd have recommended you go for 20/30/20 tension as you reference,
because the wing structure only has to give an extremely small amount to
give up tension. 6061 is
somewhat like bubble gum and a rib with channel reinforcement will
deflect and with additional tightening repeated, you will see more loose
cable. I don't think for a minute
that lack of tension could cause problems, but certainly over tightening
will eventually cause you grief. Look carefully at the skin where the
bellcrank is located and see if you find any indication of reading the
flange line. I've seen the rib pronounced at this location where cables
have been over tightened and for that reason I maintain the lesser
tensions without problems. Different wing on my HDS of course, but I
have the same concerns.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scott Thatcher wrote:
> So I plan to re-tighten to the new specs of 40/30/22 +/- 5 (Elevator,
> Aileron, Rudder respectively) and recheck the lower spar cap and the
> rib attachment of the bellcrank. Anyone have any other ideas? From
> my experience though, check those cable tensions often because they
> seemingly loosen up without any reason! N601EL now has 25 hours of
> total time.
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with WW Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL, http://placestofly.com, http://eaa203.com,
> http://mykitlog.com/sdthatcher
> Webmaster: http://zenvair.com
> *
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 9 Hour X-Country, engine purred, cables loosened! |
| From: | japhillipsga(at)aol.com |
Scott, 1/8 cable will stretch. Also in the early flying time fittings, bellcranks?and
bolts will seat themselves and all this will create slack in the system.
Ask me how I know. Further, I can't tell the difference between a cable at 20
and 30 pounds tension. Maybe others can, but I can't. So the tension meter gage
is the real answer. Since I found my slack cables my new maintenance is check
the cables with the meter with every tire air pressure check. Chances are
your cables were below standard margin when you got started.? Great story and
best of luck, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300 140 hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Thatcher <s_thatcher(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:59 am
Subject: Zenith-List: 9 Hour X-Country, engine purred, cables loosened!
Here is a rundown of my 9 hour x-country last month from Palm Beach Gardens, FL
to Andrews, NC.? It's only a 700 mile (statute) flight but I had headwinds and
I kept the speed below 100 mph the entire trip.? I put 40 pounds of baggage
in the rear baggage area in order to help keep the nose up without using full
trim during flight. And it worked beautifully.? To alleviate my heavy left wing,
I kept 12 gallons in the right wing, 30 lbs baggage in the right locker, and
6 gallons in the left wing.? Now I could fly hands off most of the trip.
?
When I left Palm Beach Gardens, the aileron cables were tight although I didn't
use a tensionometer to measure the tautness of the cables.? My first stop was
in Sebring for lunch.? On takeoff, the left canopy lock unlatched. After Jay's
experience, I throttled back and made a 500' pattern and retuned to land.? Reseated
the latch and again took off. Because of light turbulence (heavy in these
LSA's), and strong headwinds with gusts, I decided to call it quits fairly
early on Saturday afternoon and spend the night in Ocala, FL.? I asked the FBO
to tie down the aircraft and I headed to the Motel.
?
The next morning, I loaded the aircraft similar to above and noted that the tie
downs were extremely tight. I would say at least 50-100 lbs of force were used
to tie the wings down.? At the time, I thought that was a good idea because
of the gusty conditions but later wondered what affect the negative load had on
the lower spar cap.? A quick and dirty analysis indicated that the bending moments
of 1100 ft-lbs (old school) would equate to a small 200 lb load at the
center of the wing. That's about 0.25 g negative.? Nothing to worry about.? At
least yet.
?
The next 6 hours were spent cruising around 4500 feet and landing at several locations
for fuel.? My first stop was at Tellfair-Wheeler in Georgia and to my
surprise, they had no fuel and were completely unattended.? So I made a short
hop to Dublin and re-fueled there.? Talked to a fellow who worked at the AMD factory
and he mentioned I needed to look at? the bearing covers on the wheels
when I get a chance. He also spoke very favorably about the quality of workmanship
and he really enjoyed the sound of that Corvair engine.
?
Next stop was to be Habersham at the foothills just south of Andrews, NC. But,
while I was now at 6500 feet, it was very difficult to descend to land and make
that long climb back up to altitude all over again so I decided to just continue
over the mountains to Andrews.
?
It was about now that I noticed a slight difference in the feel of the ailerons.?
I could move the stick left and right about an inch without any movement of
the ailerons themselves.? As anyone knows when you fly over open water, the engine
will invariably make small noises that you have never heard before just
about the time you reach a point of no-return.? And it is also true when flying
over mountains, ailerons will start to buzz, cables feel like they are no longer
attached and the engine starts making noises not heard before... you know
the slight decrease in rpm that lasts about a thousandth of a second and causes
your heart to momentarily stop.
?
30 minutes later I was pushing N601EL into my hangar in Andrews, NC.? Other than
directly over the mountains, she flew well and the engine ran exceptionally.?
My G-Meter showed that I had only experienced a 1.7 G positive and 0.4 G negative
for the entire trip. But now I wanted to know what was going on with the
cables. I pulled the seats out and ran my hand over the aileron cables and noticed
they seemed much looser than when they were installed.? Then I found the
balance cable and it was limp... no tension at all.
?
I immediately ordered a Tensionometer from ACS and when I checked the cable tensions,
here is what I discovered.? Rudder Cable: 12-15 lbs.? Aileron Cable: 10
lbs.? Balance Cable: 0 (not measurable).? Elevator cable: 10-12 lbs.? Now what
worried me was, "How does an aileron and balance cable become so loose in so
short a time?"? The only way I could think of was that the bellcrank moved or
the wing geometry changed, both of which gave me a chill!? But neither of these
things occurred.? I checked the fairleads and they were still in place.? And
all nicopress fittings were still attached and turnbuckes still safetied.
?
So I plan to re-tighten to the new specs of 40/30/22 +/- 5 (Elevator, Aileron,
Rudder respectively) and recheck the lower spar cap and the rib attachment of
the bellcrank.? Anyone have any other ideas?? From my experience though, check
those cable tensions often because they seemingly loosen up without any reason!?
N601EL now has 25 hours of total time.
?
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with WW Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, http://placestofly.com, http://eaa203.com,
http://mykitlog.com/sdthatcher
Webmaster: http://zenvair.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fluctuating tachometer readings |
| From: | "aprazer" <aprazer(at)cableone.net> |
Scenerio: 3300 Jabiru; Dynon DK180; Pulse/Revolution values are set @ 6; tach wired
to alternator with 1 amp fuse; Problem fluctuating tach readings on taxi
testing.
Readings: At idle 2000+/- RPM -- hand held tack shows 1050+/- 10;
As I add throttle Dynon RPM drops to 1600;
Slowly adding more power tach reading comes up then drops until it reaches full
throttle and reads 2300 (static should be 2800).
Has anyone had this problem? If so, how did you solve it? Any and all help will
be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Mack Kreizenbeck
601XL N990MK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214749#214749
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Zenith : [ Curt Thompson ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! |
| From: | Email List PhotoShares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List PhotoShare is available:
Poster: Curt Thompson
Lists: Zenith-List,Zenith801701-List
Subject: TurboCAD drawings of CH701 form blocks and other parts.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Curt.Thompson@verizon.net.11.17.2008
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main PhotoShare Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a PhotoShare
If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Zenith : [ Curt Thompson ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! |
| From: | Email List PhotoShares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List PhotoShare is available:
Poster: Curt Thompson
Lists: Zenith-List,Zenith801701-List
Subject: TurboCAD drawings of CH701 form blocks and other parts.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Curt.Thompson@verizon.net.11.17.2008
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main PhotoShare Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a PhotoShare
If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimbo <jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: I've moved to FLAG (and you can too) |
For those in the Los Angeles / North OC area, EAA Chapter 96- at Compton
Woodley Airport (CPM) has similar facilities available. Contact Keith Spreu
er at (310)-692-5648
www.eaa96.org
Jim LoBue
601XL/Corvair
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Richard Vetterli wrote:
From: Richard Vetterli <richvetterli(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: I've moved to FLAG (and you can too)
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 10:46 PM
Attention Northern California (SF Bay Area) builders.
After building in my garage for the past four years,
I've moved my project to "First Light Aviation Group"
(FLAG) in Livermore, California, adjacent to the
Livermore Airport (lvk). FLAG has individual building
bays, each one complete with plenty of power,
compressed air, large locking tool boxs, work tables,
shelves and a pallet rack for large parts. FLAG also
supplies large tools (drill press, shear, brake, etc)
with convenient bathrooms, vending machines, fridge
and microwave. And, it's available 24/7. In the
lobby is a retail store with pilot supplies and
building supplies. A large meeting room upstairs
rounds out the facility. I found that when I moved my
airplane to FLAG, I was able to work in the company of
fellow builders/pilots and without the distractions of
building at home. Now I'm confident that I'll get my
plane flying in short order. No one asked me to post
this and I'm not affiliated with FLAG, I'm just a
happy customer. Check it out at www.flaglvk.com
Rich Vetterli
601XL/Corvair
95% done, 95% to go
Check out my progress at www.geocities.com/stixx5a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
| Subject: | Fluctuating tachometer readings |
Your Dynon is picking up stray signals from other wiring. Typical sources
are CHT or EGT wires. A fuel pressure sender is also a good source of stray
signal if located too close to the distributor.
Another possibility is a bad fuse with increased resistance. Try running
without the fuse.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of aprazer
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fluctuating tachometer readings
Scenerio: 3300 Jabiru; Dynon DK180; Pulse/Revolution values are set @ 6;
tach wired to alternator with 1 amp fuse; Problem fluctuating tach readings
on taxi testing.
Readings: At idle 2000+/- RPM -- hand held tack shows 1050+/- 10;
As I add throttle Dynon RPM drops to 1600;
Slowly adding more power tach reading comes up then drops until it reaches
full throttle and reads 2300 (static should be 2800).
Has anyone had this problem? If so, how did you solve it? Any and all help
will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Mack Kreizenbeck
601XL N990MK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214749#214749
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
| From: | "leinad" <leinad(at)hughes.net> |
I think it was Larry McFarland that had plans to make a cable tension guage on
his website. I took his lead and made my own, modifying his design somewhat.
I made it smaller and amplified the motion. I put pictures on my website on
the tools page. When I checked my cables, also done by feel I found the same
thing that you did. I had around 18 lbs on the rudder and 15 pounds on the elevator
(my ailerons are not cabled yet). The 40 pounds specified for the elevator
seams like a lot of load to put on those flimsy horns. I haven't readjusted
them yet, but I have some time (a lot) before first flight.
Dan
http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us
[quote] ="japhillipsga(at)aol.com"]Dear 601XL Builders and Flyers, my eyes have
been opened to an issue. All this talk about flutter and cables, etc., led me
to buy a tensionmeter and check the cables in my XL. Wow was I surprised! The
aileron cables were at 17 pounds and the elevator at below 10 pounds. By ZAC
they should have been 30 & 40 pds. I reset them and flew. I was pleased at the
difference in control and response. Now before you think "that just can't happen
to me" I set my cables with my hands plucking them, seemed good and tight.I
have tightened mine twice since I built her. No body has "calibrated" fingers.
I alert you all and hope everybody will check their cables. I had flutter a
couple years ago that scared the poop out of me. Don't want it again or that
anybody should be lost because of it. The cable tester cost about $190. How much
does having a wing come off cost? Best wishes, Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300 140 hours
> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214777#214777
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
Hey Billl
Are you going to rent that test out to us? I would sure like to use it on
my 601 HDS.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:08 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension
Dear 601XL Builders and Flyers, my eyes have been opened to an issue. All
this talk about flutter and cables, etc., led me to buy a tensionmeter and
check the cables in my XL. Wow was I surprised! The aileron cables were at
17 pounds and the elevator at below 10 pounds. By ZAC they should have been
30 & 40 pds. I reset them and flew. I was pleased at the difference in
control and response. Now before you think "that just can't happen to me" I
set my cables with my hands plucking them, seemed good and tight.I have
tightened mine twice since I built her. No body has "calibrated" fingers. I
alert you all and hope everybody will check their cables. I had flutter a
couple years ago that scared the poop out of me. Don't want it again or that
anybody should be lost because of it. The cable tester cost about $190. How
much does having a wing come off cost? Best wishes, Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300 140 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Great (U.S.) source for chocks |
Gang:
Recently picked up a set of excellent wheel chocks for my 601 (with
5.00x5 tires), from www.chocks.com, which is Worden Safety Products.
The set I chose was the A4R-R Small Extruded Wedge chock, made from EPDM
rubber and sold in pairs, with a connecting rope, for $7.50/pair. With
shipping, total was about $25. The specific link for this choice is
http://www.chocks.com/chock.php?sn=2340402924
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (registered)
601XL/TD, Corvair, finishing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 9 Hour X-Country, engine purred, cables loosened! |
| From: | "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net> |
Scott,
Great report.
The only experience I have with keeping cables under consistent tension is my guitar
strings. I have been restringing guitars for many years and what I do is
bring them all in to tune then stretch them slightly by pulling them away from
the finger board. Then I re-tune and for the most part they stay in tune.
Experience has taught me that without the stretching step I chase the tune of
the guitar for about a week before it settles in. I would imagine this also
applies to cables but haven't found the documentation that states so.
YMMV
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214812#214812
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What Members Are Saying... |
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Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Help! Zenith Riveter |
| From: | "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com> |
Guys (and Gals),
I have the standard issue Zenith pneumatic riveter. I've pulled about 5-6000 rivets
with it and recently it started acting up.
For some reason it takes two squeezes of the trigger to pull an A5 or even an A4.
I've played with the pressure ranging from 60 - 90 PSI ( and even 100Psi to make
sure it wasn't pressure related)
There is no stem stuck in it like I thought there might be.
Oh, one more interesting bit. The first squeeze domes the head and pulls it tight.
Then the next squeeze, BANG! the rivet pulls and a few time it has dented
my skins which is really aggravating. (Luckily I am not working in very visible
places at the moment).
I have dissembled, oiled etc and cant find anything wrong.
Here is the kicker, sometimes when I vary the depth of the screw in heads (adjusting
them in and out) everything works fine for a few rivets.
HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED THIS, AND IF SO HOW DO I MAKE IT STOP? Or do I just
go to Harbor Freight and get a new riveter?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214947#214947
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
| From: | "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> |
Is it possible that the parts that grip the stem have started to wear out?
I have the Harborfreight style which is still going strong after two airplanes,
and almost ten years of service. It occasionally does this, but when it does
I just add oil to it and it works like new again.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214955#214955
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
Rogar, I'll be happy to loan it to you, but if your going to do periodic
checks as I am having one to own is a must, Bill
**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
| From: | "annken100" <annken100(at)aol.com> |
Why rent when you can buy one for under $200.00 at Aircraft Spruce or Ebay? Considering
the importance of proper cable tension I would think you'd want a tensionometer
of your own to check cable tension every 50 hours or at least every
annual condition inspection. In the grand scheme of things, an investment of
less than $200.00 for the sake of safety is a no-brainer.
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214965#214965
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Ray" <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
Try unscrewing the nose piece a turn. This will change the location on the
rivet stem that makes contact with the puller. I found immediately after
pulling some of the stainless steel rivets to the brake peddles that my
riveter developed a sensitive spot that did not grip as well.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
> Guys (and Gals),
>
> I have the standard issue Zenith pneumatic riveter. I've pulled about
5-6000 rivets with it and recently it started acting up.
>
> For some reason it takes two squeezes of the trigger to pull an A5 or even
an A4.
>
> I've played with the pressure ranging from 60 - 90 PSI ( and even 100Psi
to make sure it wasn't pressure related)
>
> There is no stem stuck in it like I thought there might be.
>
> Oh, one more interesting bit. The first squeeze domes the head and pulls
it tight. Then the next squeeze, BANG! the rivet pulls and a few time it
has dented my skins which is really aggravating. (Luckily I am not working
in very visible places at the moment).
>
> I have dissembled, oiled etc and cant find anything wrong.
>
> Here is the kicker, sometimes when I vary the depth of the screw in heads
(adjusting them in and out) everything works fine for a few rivets.
>
> HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED THIS, AND IF SO HOW DO I MAKE IT STOP? Or do I
just go to Harbor Freight and get a new riveter?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214947#214947
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pramod Kotwal <pramodkotwal(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
If checking the tension is not very time consuming I would check it very often,
just to be safe.
Considering the importance of the tension, the instrument should be included in
the on board set of tools, I think.
Pramod
--- On Tue, 11/18/08, annken100 wrote:
> From: annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 10:43 AM
>
>
> Why rent when you can buy one for under $200.00 at Aircraft
> Spruce or Ebay? Considering the importance of proper cable
> tension I would think you'd want a tensionometer of your
> own to check cable tension every 50 hours or at least every
> annual condition inspection. In the grand scheme of things,
> an investment of less than $200.00 for the sake of safety is
> a no-brainer.
>
> Ken Pavlou
>
> --------
> 601 XL / Corvair
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214965#214965
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
| From: | "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> |
annken100 wrote:
> In the grand scheme of things, an investment of less than $200.00 for the sake
of safety is a no-brainer.
I didn't give it a second though when I spent 25 times that amount on my BRS.
I started building my XL before all this stuff started happening, so it was a
bit of an expense that I hadn't planned for. But it'll be worth it if I ever
need it...
For what it's worth, I'm also going to make "Check Cable Tension" part of my pre-flight
and I'm going to track it, keeping an eye out for a trend over the passage
of time.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215031#215031
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
| From: | "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> |
My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2 trigger pulls,
but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215032#215032
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
I RETURNED THE NEW ONE THEY SENT ME, IT BLEW THE END OFF JUST MISSING MY
HEAD AND DENTING THE HANGER DOOR. TOO BAD THEY STOP SELLING THE OLD TYPE
(THE YELLOW ONE WITH THE PLASTIC CUPON THE END) THEY ARE GREAT,TRYED TO GET
THEM TO GET ME ONE OF THE OLD ONES ,BUT THEY SAID NO...... JOE N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Ray" <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
> Try unscrewing the nose piece a turn. This will change the location on
> the
> rivet stem that makes contact with the puller. I found immediately after
> pulling some of the stainless steel rivets to the brake peddles that my
> riveter developed a sensitive spot that did not grip as well.
>
> Gary Ray
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:28 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
>
>>
>>
>> Guys (and Gals),
>>
>> I have the standard issue Zenith pneumatic riveter. I've pulled about
> 5-6000 rivets with it and recently it started acting up.
>>
>> For some reason it takes two squeezes of the trigger to pull an A5 or
>> even
> an A4.
>>
>> I've played with the pressure ranging from 60 - 90 PSI ( and even 100Psi
> to make sure it wasn't pressure related)
>>
>> There is no stem stuck in it like I thought there might be.
>>
>> Oh, one more interesting bit. The first squeeze domes the head and pulls
> it tight. Then the next squeeze, BANG! the rivet pulls and a few time it
> has dented my skins which is really aggravating. (Luckily I am not working
> in very visible places at the moment).
>>
>> I have dissembled, oiled etc and cant find anything wrong.
>>
>> Here is the kicker, sometimes when I vary the depth of the screw in heads
> (adjusting them in and out) everything works fine for a few rivets.
>>
>> HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED THIS, AND IF SO HOW DO I MAKE IT STOP? Or do
>> I
> just go to Harbor Freight and get a new riveter?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214947#214947
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
| From: | "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com> |
I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I suspected.
I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of curiosity... What
would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING!
This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go with the HF gun,
I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and bought the hundred dollar
Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF gun. To me it seems that the 30 dollar
HF gun would be able to better reach some areas and many seem to even like
the quality better.
Thanks again to everyone!
PatrickW wrote:
> My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2 trigger pulls,
but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
>
> I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
>
> Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
>
> - Pat
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215046#215046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
IF YOU WANT THE BEST GO TO WWW.FSIRIVET.COM CLICK ON AUTO THEN PT100-C
THIS THING DEVELOPES 4000 LB.@90-120PSI THEY ALSO HAVE A HAND PULL THAT IS
HOT... JOE N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:07 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
> I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I
> suspected.
>
> I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of
> curiosity... What would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO
> FIX SOMETHING!
>
> This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go with the
> HF gun, I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and bought the
> hundred dollar Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF gun. To me it
> seems that the 30 dollar HF gun would be able to better reach some areas
> and many seem to even like the quality better.
>
> Thanks again to everyone!
>
>
> PatrickW wrote:
>> My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2
>> trigger pulls, but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
>>
>> I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
>>
>> Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
>>
>> - Pat
>
>
> --------
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215046#215046
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Just had another thought as I am studying my plans and the aileron and
rudder cables are shown going through fairleads and changing directions. I
was under the impression that you should always use a pulley to change the
direction of a cable, and that a fairlead was just to stop vibration or the
cable striking parts it shouldn't. Even just a minor direction change in a
cable under tension running through a 1/8" thick piece of nylon is going to
cut into it and release the tension as it does, and may be contributing to
the tensioning issues being discussed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ihab.awad(at)gmail.com |
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Dirk Zahtilla wrote:
> Even just a minor direction change in a cable under tension running through a
> 1/8" thick piece of nylon is going to cut into it and release the tension as
it
> does, and may be contributing to the tensioning issues being discussed.
This one is relatively easy to test given the right materials. It
should be easy to construct a geometrically correct model of one of
the setups by screwing some stuff to some 2x4s or whatever, tension it
to 30 pounds, move the cable back and forth a few times, and then
recheck the tension and examine the fairlead. Any Zenith builder might
already have (or have access to) excess cable and maybe even pulleys,
and fairlead material.
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> |
"I was under the impression that you should always use a pulley to change the direction
of a cable..."
AC 43.13 allows a 3 degree change of direction using a fair-lead (7-149n)
Although the plans exceed this in some instances, adding additional fair-leads
is easy to do to remain under 3 degrees although a pulley would be best for tension
issues.
(Ihab, the 3D printer idea was very useful--I may have my first prototype part
by 12/4! Thanks!)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215084#215084
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension |
Bill
It turns out a mechanic buddy of mine has one, but thanks for the offer !!!!
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith- Alert To Aileron Cable Tension
Rogar, I'll be happy to loan it to you, but if your going to do periodic
checks as I am having one to own is a must, Bill
_____
Get
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001> the
Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
The site, FSIRIVET.COM is down or the URL is bad.
Leo Gates
N601Z
Southern Reflections wrote:
>
>
> IF YOU WANT THE BEST GO TO WWW.FSIRIVET.COM CLICK ON AUTO THEN
> PT100-C THIS THING DEVELOPES 4000 LB.@90-120PSI THEY ALSO HAVE A HAND
> PULL THAT IS HOT... JOE N101HD
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MHerder"
>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:07 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
>
>>
>>
>> I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I
>> suspected.
>>
>> I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of
>> curiosity... What would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING
>> ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING!
>>
>> This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go
>> with the HF gun, I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and
>> bought the hundred dollar Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF
>> gun. To me it seems that the 30 dollar HF gun would be able to
>> better reach some areas and many seem to even like the quality better.
>>
>> Thanks again to everyone!
>>
>>
>> PatrickW wrote:
>>> My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2
>>> trigger pulls, but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
>>>
>>> I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
>>>
>>> Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
>>>
>>> - Pat
>>
>>
>> --------
>> One Rivet at a Time!
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
SORRY LEO THERE IS A / AFTER COM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Gates" <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
> The site, FSIRIVET.COM is down or the URL is bad.
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z
>
> Southern Reflections wrote:
>>
>>
>> IF YOU WANT THE BEST GO TO WWW.FSIRIVET.COM CLICK ON AUTO THEN
>> PT100-C THIS THING DEVELOPES 4000 LB.@90-120PSI THEY ALSO HAVE A HAND
>> PULL THAT IS HOT... JOE N101HD
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MHerder"
>>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:07 PM
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I
>>> suspected.
>>>
>>> I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of
>>> curiosity... What would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING
>>> ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING!
>>>
>>> This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go
>>> with the HF gun, I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and
>>> bought the hundred dollar Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF
>>> gun. To me it seems that the 30 dollar HF gun would be able to
>>> better reach some areas and many seem to even like the quality better.
>>>
>>> Thanks again to everyone!
>>>
>>>
>>> PatrickW wrote:
>>>> My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2
>>>> trigger pulls, but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
>>>>
>>>> I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
>>>>
>>>> Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
>>>>
>>>> - Pat
>>>
>>>
>>> --------
>>> One Rivet at a Time!
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
Greetings,
My experience with manual blind rivet pullers is that when they give the
problems you describe it is caused by the teeth on the jaws getting "dull".
If you look at the pulled stems they may show that the jaws slipped some
distance on the stem before they got a grip and started to pull. Sometimes
when this happens you will see a buildup of aluminum in the jaws when you
disassemble the puller. I have never had much luck reconditioning the
parts.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
----- Original Message -----
From: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
>
> I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I
> suspected.
>
> I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of
> curiosity... What would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO
> FIX SOMETHING!
>
> This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go with the
> HF gun, I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and bought the
> hundred dollar Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF gun. To me it
> seems that the 30 dollar HF gun would be able to better reach some areas
> and many seem to even like the quality better.
>
> Thanks again to everyone!
>
>
> PatrickW wrote:
>> My green zenith riveter did the same thing. I can live with the 2
>> trigger pulls, but the BANG! and resulting dents I can live without.
>>
>> I bought a HF riveter and never looked back.
>>
>> Also have a few hand riveters that come in handy for AS5's.
>>
>> - Pat
>
>
> --------
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215046#215046
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
5:24 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
Although I have not pulled that many rivets with my Zenith riveter yet, I
have had issues with it seeming to be overly-sensitive. Granted I am not
using an expensive regulator, but it seems to require very minute
adjustments to go from not pulling at all to pulling / jumping and denting
the skin. I also have trouble with an occasional A4 rivet head not doming
down tightly against the skin all the way around. It will be slightly
raised for about 25% to 35% of the circumference, in spite of the fact that
I am very careful to square the riveter to the surface before pulling.
What is the specific make and model of the HF rivet gun referred to below
that builders are having success with?
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL - tail done, flaps done, ailerons 75% done
Subject: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=75182960?KEYS=hf
?LISTNAME=Zenith?HITNUMBER=5?SERIAL281432186?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>
From: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
Date: Nov 18, 2008
I appreciate everyones input. Sounds like I'm not the only one as I
suspected.
I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of curiosity...
What
would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING!
This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go with the
HF gun,
I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and bought the hundred dollar
Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF gun. To me it seems that the 30
dollar
HF gun would be able to better reach some areas and many seem to even like
the quality better.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
| From: | "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)aol.com> |
>From my FWIW. I bought the ZAC puller and the HF Special. Have used both over
2 years with little problem. Turns out the HF is sometimes easier to get into
some places... but the ZAC model works better in others.
Just experienced trouble (for the first time) with the HF. They had included spare
parts and directions to tune up the old bus so.... I rebuilt it with new
parts and it works like new. Biggest problem was "hydraulic fuild" was way low.
That fix was probably all it needed, but since I had it apart seemed silly
not to put in new springs, etc.
Also have ACE hand puller that swivels... need that once in awhile.
Only problem (if you call it that) with ZAC model was couple of the bolts loosened
and it wouldn't work until they were tightened.
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215151#215151
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ZodieRocket" <zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca> |
| Subject: | Riveter Problems? RED ATD Version |
HI Folks, a few have expressed a problem with their riveter, if this is
the new Riveter from Zenith the "Red ATD one" then please call Zenith
directly for help in getting this resolved. The new riveter does require
setup, not all, but a few are needed to be adjusted. I have been using
these types of riveters for years and prefer them over the old diaphragm
style. However, sometimes they come out of the box ready to go and other
times it takes a few kicks at the cat to get it operating the way I want
it to. SO if you have the new RED ATD and it is not working properly
call Zenith at 573-581-9000 and ask for Travis, I talked to him
concerning this issue and he will be more then happy to help you out.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
519-590-7601 www.canzac.ca
Canadian Dealer for Zenith Aircraft Kits, Zenair Designs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help! Zenith Riveter |
93458-1VGA is the el-cheapo one at $29.99
-
98898-0VGA-is the better one at $79.99
-
Both are Cetral Pneumatic models
-
I have the Zac riveter-and pricier one from Harbour Freight-and it is w
ay better than the one I have from Zac
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Dave VanLanen wrote:
From: Dave VanLanen <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help! Zenith Riveter
Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 12:41 PM
Although I have not pulled that many rivets with my Zenith riveter yet, I h
ave had issues with it seeming to be overly-sensitive.- Granted I am not
using an expensive regulator, but it seems to require very minute adjustmen
ts to go from not pulling at all to pulling / jumping and denting the skin.
- I also have trouble with an occasional A4 rivet head not doming down ti
ghtly against the skin all the way around.- It will be slightly raised fo
r about 25% to 35% of the circumference, in spite of the fact that I am ver
y careful to square the riveter to the surface before pulling.
What is the specific make and model of the HF rivet gun referred to below t
hat builders are having success with?
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL ' tail done, flaps done, ailerons 75% done
Subject: ------ Re: Help! Zenith Riveter-------
From: - "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>
Date: - Nov 18, 2008---
I appreciate everyones input.- Sounds like I'm not the only one as I susp
ected.
I'm going to buy the HF gun but at this point it is a matter of curiosity..
.- What
would make it do such a thing. I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING!
This should also serve the newcomers, save your money and just go with the
HF gun,
I don't like to buy cheap tools so I splurged and bought the hundred dollar
Zenith gun rather than the 30 dollar HF gun.- To me it seems that the 30
dollar
HF gun would be able to better reach some areas and many seem to even like
the quality better.
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? |
Dear Listers,
The percentage of people making a Contribution to support the Lists this year is
currently lagging behind last year by approximately 21%! I'm hoping that everyone
is just waiting until the last minute to show their support... ;-)
Please remember that it is solely your direct Contributions that keep these Lists
up and running and most importantly - AD FREE! If the members don't want to
support the Lists directly, then I will likely have to start adding advertisements
to offset the costs of running the Lists. But I *really* don't want to
have to start doing that. I really like the non-commercial atmosphere here and
I think that a lot of the members appreciate that too.
Please take a moment to make a Contribution today in support of the continued ad-free
operation of all these Lists:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I want to send out a word of appreciation to all of the members that have already
made their generous Contribution to support the Lists! Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wade jones" <wjones(at)brazoriainet.com> |
Hello group ,I am getting ready for a hanger clean-up .If someone on the
list is considering scratch building a 601XL they are welcome to my
forms used in building my plane .If they are not wanted they are on
their way to the burn pile .It would cost too much to ship them ,I live
50 miles South of Houston Texas in Brazoria . Phone :979-798-5917
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
Gang:
I have a few left-over (unused) parts from my build that I would like to
sell. All are offered at *1/2* the price from the Zenith catalog, plus
actual shipping. Please contact me off-list if you are interested.
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (registered)
601XL/TD, inspection this Saturday!
a.s.elliott(at)cox.net
Part No. Description ZAC $$ My $$
-------- ------------ ------- -------
6W9-2 Pitot-Static Tube Assembly 61.00 30.50
6W10-1 Ail. Bellcrank w/spacers 38.10 19.00
(each, have 2)
6F4-1 Cable Outlet Fairing ??? 2.00
(each, have 2)
All of it, even cheaper! $70.00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Correction - Left-over parts |
Gang: (found more!)
I have a few left-over (unused) parts from my build that I would like to
sell. All are offered at *1/2* the price from the Zenith catalog, plus
actual shipping. Please contact me off-list if you are interested.
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (registered)
601XL/TD, inspection this Saturday!
a.s.elliott(at)cox.net
Part No. Description ZAC $$ My $$
-------- ------------ ------- -------
6W9-2 Pitot-Static Tube Assembly 61.00 30.50
6W10-1 Ail. Bellcrank w/spacers,2 38.10 38.00
(each) (for 2)
6F4-1 Cable Outlet Fairing,2 ??? 4.00
(for 2)
9416K12 40# Gas Spring,2 10.50 10.50
(each) (for 2)
All of it, even cheaper! $80.00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Push Rods, 601XL |
| From: | japhillipsga(at)aol.com |
Dear Builders, somewhere out there in Zenithland there is at least one builder
that substituted push/pull rods for the cables on their ailerons. I remember somebody
in the past saying on this thread that they were going to or had already
made the stwitch. Please contact me if that certain someone is reading. Also, if
any of you other folks remember who
he is please let me know. Thanks for your time, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300
140 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215321#215321
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Push Rods, 601XL |
That was me,
There's one recently completed XL (in our EAA chapter) with pushrods,
and myself and one other just started propjects who are doing this also.
Feel free to call me at 775-671-0852 or email me direct
ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net
Dirk Z Carson City, Nv.
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga(at)aol.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron Push Rods, 601XL
Dear Builders, somewhere out there in Zenithland there is at least one
builder that substituted push/pull rods for the cables on their
ailerons. I remember somebody in the past saying on this thread that
they were going to or had already
made the stwitch. Please contact me if that certain someone is reading.
Also, if any of you other folks remember who
he is please let me know. Thanks for your time, Bill of Georgia N505WP
601XL-3300 140 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215321#215321
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Correction - Left-over parts |
| From: | "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> |
Just curious - did you go with something different for your aileron belcrank...?
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215375#215375
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
Jabiru USA is flying a 85hp Jabiru 2200 in our 701. See
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithch701.html for details
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Southern
Reflections
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Iberplanes IGL" <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Pete,
Would a 3300 also fit?
Thanks,.
2008/11/20 Pete Krotje
> Jabiru USA is flying a 85hp Jabiru 2200 in our 701. See
> http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithch701.html for details
>
>
> Pete
>
>
> *From:* owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Southern
> Reflections
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
> *To:* zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
>
>
> Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> *
>
>
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
There are a few builders who have installed the 3300 but there are more
cooling issues to solve.
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes IGL
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Hello Pete,
Would a 3300 also fit?
Thanks,.
2008/11/20 Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA is flying a 85hp Jabiru 2200 in our 701. See
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithch701.html for details
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Southern
Reflections
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
What typt prop are you using and what size and pitch? Thanks Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Krotje
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Jabiru USA is flying a 85hp Jabiru 2200 in our 701. See
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithch701.html for details
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Southern
Reflections
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Z
enith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> |
Joe, there is probably a dozen or more out there now, we have 2 in NZ with the
2200a and they do fine. A third is fitting a 3300 but not flown yet, I expect
the trouble will be in the cooling as Pete says, and fuel burn/ weight will be
compromised.
Probably find more info on the 701801 list....
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215419#215419
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
thank's mate, what type prop are you using,size and pitch? Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 80 hp. jab
>
> Joe, there is probably a dozen or more out there now, we have 2 in NZ with
> the 2200a and they do fine. A third is fitting a 3300 but not flown yet, I
> expect the trouble will be in the cooling as Pete says, and fuel burn/
> weight will be compromised.
>
> Probably find more info on the 701801 list....
>
> Ralph
>
> --------
> Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215419#215419
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> |
I went to a thompsonaeronatical.com 64x30". The Jabiru 60x38" was unsatisfactory.
There is a Yahoo thread on this and the Sensenich and the Tenessee props seem
to be equivalent
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215470#215470
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
Thank's Ralph, I've got a friend that has a701 with a jab 80 hp.eng he has 2
prop from jab and both don't work one over revs and other won't develope
enouth power to get off the ground.. one of those prop,s is a tenn. I'll
pass your e mail to him Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:54 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 80 hp. jab
>
> I went to a thompsonaeronatical.com 64x30". The Jabiru 60x38" was
> unsatisfactory. There is a Yahoo thread on this and the Sensenich and the
> Tenessee props seem to be equivalent
>
> Ralph
>
> --------
> Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215470#215470
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Plexiglass Scratch Repair... |
Dear Listers,
During the fitting of the Plexiglass canopy on my RV-8, I managed to put some pretty
disheartening scratches in the windscreen section. You can see from the
pictures that they looked pretty bad. A call to Van's revealed that a replacement
canopy would be $640 + $250 shipping to California! Ack.
So what to do... A bit of surfing and I found this "Scratch Off" windshield repair
kit for $35 on the Aircraft Spruce web site:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/scratchoff.php
Frankly, it just seemed too good to be true. Nothing for $35 could be that "magic"
I thought, but what did I have to lose at this point....
Well, the kit arrived yesterday and I decided to give it a try tonight. In a word:
WOW! In about 2 hours the windscreen looked as good as new - no kidding
- AS GOOD AS NEW! The pictures really don't do the repair justice. It looks
better in person.
There are basically two sponges in the kit with four decreasingly porous pastes.
You just put some of the first paste on the sponge and buff it in with a drill
at 1200 RPM or less. Then you wash everything down good including the sponge
and windshield with warm water. Then you use the next finer paste and repeat
the process. Etc, etc, until you've used the 4th paste that is kind of like
car wax.
Frankly, the scratches were gone after the first application of paste - I started
at #2 based on the instructions and the "observed severity" of the scratch
depth.
So, the bottom line is, if you've got scuffs or mild scratches in your Plexiglass
buy this repair kit. It works!
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimbo <jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | YOU MIGHT BE IN THE AVIATION/AEROSPACE INDUSTRY IF ... |
This bit of humor may be a little OT, but helps to explain why some of my posts
seem incomprehensible.
YOU MIGHT BE IN THE AVIATION/AEROSPACE INDUSTRY IF ...
1. You sat at the same desk for 4 years and worked for 8 different managers. Or
have moved 10 times in two years and have never known who your boss was.
2. Your resume is on a jumpdrive in your pocket.
3. Someone asks you what you do for a living and you lie.
4. You get really excited about a 2% pay increase.
5. Your biggest loss from a system crash, is that you lose your best jokes.
6. You sit in a cubicle smaller than your bedroom closet.
7. Its dark on your drive
to and from work.
8. Fun is when "projects" are assigned to someone else.
9. Communication is something your "group" is having problems with.
10. You see a good-looking person and know it's a visitor.
11. Free food left over from a meeting is your main staple.
12. All art involves a white board.
13. All real work is done prior to 8:00am and after 4:30pm.
14. You're already late on the assignment you just received.
15. Dilbert is your favorite cartoon.
16. Your boss's favorite lines are ...
"When you get a few minutes ..."
"I have an opportunity for you ..."
"Cross-charging is forbidden."
"the directional truth in a white water world ..."
"We have a new culture that will enable us to ..."
"We have a new engineering vice-president."
"This reorganization will allow us to streamline our way of doing
business, becoming more competitive."
17. 99% of
the people in your company do not know what you do.
18. 99% of the people in your company do not care what you do.
19. Vacation is something you rollover to next year or a check you get every
January.
20. Change is the norm.
21. Nepotism is strongly encouraged.
22. Your company announces no pay increase because it is investing money in a
new aircraft development.
23. Your company announces no pay increase because the airline industry is in a
downturn. And your boss gets voted "man of the year in aerospace"
24. Your fear to fly is becoming even worse.
25. Everyone at the company says that without his work there would be no
aircraft.
26. An ordinary secretary has more power than an old engineer.
27. You read this entire list and understand it.
28. Not allowing firearms on company property is seen strictly as a suicide
prevention measure.
29. The
only people you forward this to are in aerospace too because no one
else would understand!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tommy Walker" <twalker(at)cableone.net> |
Here's a 701 w/3300:
http://www.barnstormers.com
Search for : Zenith 701 w/Jabiru 3300
\
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plexiglass Scratch Repair... |
| From: | japhillipsga(at)aol.com |
Matt, thanks for the info, I ordered one today. I see from your photos you have
not attached the skirts yet. I just finished mine on my 8a. I made the mistake
of starting from the front and working to the rear. My advise is start fitting
the skirts from the rear and work forward. Has to be much easier and a better
fit. Best regards, Bill of Georgia?
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:22 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Plexiglass Scratch Repair...
Dear Listers,
During the fitting of the Plexiglass canopy on my RV-8, I managed to put some
pretty disheartening scratches in the windscreen section. You can see from the
pictures that they looked pretty bad. A call to Van's revealed that a
replacement canopy would be $640 + $250 shipping to California! Ack.
So what to do... A bit of surfing and I found this "Scratch Off" windshield
repair kit for $35 on the Aircraft Spruce web site:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/scratchoff.php
Frankly, it just seemed too good to be true. Nothing for $35 could be that
"magic" I thought, but what did I have to lose at this point....
Well, the kit arrived yesterday and I decided to give it a try tonight. In a
word: WOW! In about 2 hours the windscreen looked as good as new - no kidding
-
AS GOOD AS NEW! The pictures really don't do the repair justice. It looks
better in person.
There are basically two sponges in the kit with four decreasingly porous pastes.
You just put some of the first paste on the sponge and buff it in with a drill
at 1200 RPM or less. Then you wash everything down good including the sponge
and windshield with warm water. Then you use the next finer paste and repeat
the process. Etc, etc, until you've used the 4th paste that is kind of like car
wax.
Frankly, the scratches were gone after the first application of paste - I
started at #2 based on the instructions and the "observed severity" of the
scratch depth.
So, the bottom line is, if you've got scuffs or mild scratches in your
Plexiglass buy this repair kit. It works!
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
[Image Removed]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
We have tried Sensenich 60 inch ground adjustable with great results.
Tennessee props 64 x 36 with pretty good results and a Sensenich W64PJ-36
with great results. It is important with that aircraft to get a takeoff and
climbout rpm around 3000 rpm.
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Southern
Reflections
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 3:33 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
What typt prop are you using and what size and pitch? Thanks Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Krotje <mailto:pete(at)usjabiru.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Jabiru USA is flying a 85hp Jabiru 2200 in our 701. See
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithch701.html for details
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Southern
Reflections
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 80 hp. jab
Does any out there have a 80 hp. jab in a701? Joe N101 HD
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plexiglass Scratch Repair... |
I have used the Novus products with very good results. Novus #3 for
heavy scratches and Novus #2 for light scratching. They are available
from ACS for $6 to $7 in 8 oz. bottles. You rub it in by hand with a
soft cloth. It works very well with little effort. Novus #1 is a
plastic cleaner.
On Nov 21, 2008, at 12:22 AM, Matt Dralle wrote:
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> During the fitting of the Plexiglass canopy on my RV-8, I managed to
> put some pretty disheartening scratches in the windscreen section.
> You can see from the pictures that they looked pretty bad. A call
> to Van's revealed that a replacement canopy would be $640 + $250
> shipping to California! Ack.
>
> So what to do... A bit of surfing and I found this "Scratch Off"
> windshield repair kit for $35 on the Aircraft Spruce web site:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/scratchoff.php
>
> Frankly, it just seemed too good to be true. Nothing for $35 could
> be that "magic" I thought, but what did I have to lose at this
> point....
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: *SPAM* Re: 80 hp. jab |
| From: | "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net> |
Care to post any observed performance specs?
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215596#215596
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ALAN BEYER <agbeyer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I sent this out before but I don't think it went-through.- Here it is a
gain.-=0A-=0ASimple Gust Locks-----(See Pics).- Flat Alum., Alum rod,
and plastic tubing.- Push tubing over rod and drill holes in flat stock
(Tight fight) and push rod with tubing over it through flat plate, add flag
and your done.=0A-=0AAl from Oshkosh
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> |
Nice job,Good idea,going to make me a set....Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: ALAN BEYER
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 5:41 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Gust Locks
I sent this out before but I don't think it went through. Here it is
again.
Simple Gust Locks-----(See Pics). Flat Alum., Alum rod, and plastic
tubing. Push tubing over rod and drill holes in flat stock (Tight
fight) and push rod with tubing over it through flat plate, add flag and
your done.
Al from Oshkosh
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort
of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment
tool as your typical magazine subscription!
Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is
fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by popping a personal check in the mail to:
Matronics Email Lists
c/o Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wade jones" <wjones(at)brazoriainet.com> |
Hello group ,over the Thanksgiving holiday I plan to fit the wings on my
601XL .I could use any information/ideas provided by the members and
builders on the site .Are the plans for the wing root cutout listed on
page 6-W-6 good enough to go by or is there a better way . Thanks
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wade jones" <wjones(at)brazoriainet.com> |
Hello group ,correction on my last post ,should read page 6-W-9 instead
of 6-W-6 . Thanks
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
----- Original Message -----
From: wade jones
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Wing fitting
Hello group ,over the Thanksgiving holiday I plan to fit the wings on my
601XL .I could use any information/ideas provided by the members and
builders on the site .Are the plans for the wing root cutout listed on
page 6-W-6 good enough to go by or is there a better way . Thanks
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Afterfxllc(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | There almost done |
Now off the airport to fit them one last time and then mount and test.
Jeff
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Afterfxllc(at)aol.com |
Sorry messed up the first one.
Now off the airport to fit them one last time and then mount and test.
Jeff
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dingfelder" <ding(at)tbscc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing fitting / W.W. Corvair |
Wade,
Based on my experience, do NOT cut all the way back to the
co-ordinates shown in the plans. I would recommend leaving a minimum of
1/2 inch extra, probably more, on your initial cut. Support your wing in
some fashion, and gradually mark and trim as you approach spar bolt
alignment. Use the fuselage side as a marker guide, mark, slide the wing
out, trim and do it again as you sneak up on the final position. If I
recall correctly, the final gap needs to be about 4mm for the rubber
root moulding to fit well. Taper ground 5/16" pins or hardware grade
bolt shanks are ideal to help align the spar bolt holes as you get
close. It took me about three or four hours to trim each wing skin.
Also, as part of this process, you need to establish the rear spar
final position vertically and laterally. Zenith wants a minimum of 12mm
edge distance (preferrably more) on the rear spar bolt. Use a smaller
bolt when drilling the first hole, so you still have room to tweak it.
Ideally, the centerline of the flap hinge pin will align with the center
of the flap actuator shaft, though "close" is OK, as long as both sides
are identically positioned relative to the fuselage.
On a separate note, I couldn't be more satisfied with my
W.W. Corvair. The components that William produces are first class in
both design and manufacture, and will allow you to produce a quality
powerplant that performs exceptionally in the 601 / XL. I'm still in
early Phase one testing, and have no hard performance numbers yet, but
this plane is all I hoped for, and more.
Lynn Dingfelder
601 / XL W.W. Corvair
Power
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ben52425(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: There almost done |
HI JEFF
THEY LOOK LIKE THE MOVIE COCOON
LOOK,S GOOD ,SHOULD GIVE DIRECT COOLING
GOT MY COMPUTER FIX AGAIN
PAT WILL FLIGHT TEST IN THE MORN. TIGHTEN CABLES
BEN
In a message dated 11/22/2008 10:53:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com writes:
Now off the airport to fit them one last time and then mount and test.
Jeff
____________________________________
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the
things you love. Try t6ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com
today!
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <paulrod36(at)msn.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Spreading fear about the XL |
Friends, neighbors, and fellow Zenith Enthusiasts,
I have received multiple off-list communications about the
unexplained XL crashes. We now have folks not part of the Zenith community
spreading "information" about the accidents. As I reported on this list
then, a group of LSA competitors advanced negative information about the XL
in person at the September 2007 Zenith Gathering in Winchester, Virginia.
For my part, I have not heard anything conclusive from the entities looking
at the design, including the Zenith Builder's Analysis Group, Zenith, the
NTSB, and European Governments, with two exceptions. One is the cable
tension advisory and the other is the European action. Neither tells us
what is happening unless you believe that insufficient cable tension is the
proper explanation. Others have failed to find any design problem despite
an extensive review. ZAC conducted a second static load test with
acceptable results. But the impact of all the discussion is becoming clear.
In the Second November Issue, 2008 of Trade-A-Plane, there are three kits
for sale and a completed aircraft. See page 87. Some advertisements have
appeared on this list. Locally, some builders are making the decision to
stop work on their projects. While all losses of human life are mourned
without reservation, especially losses that need not occur, I believe that
we all seek a rational explanation for these events if one exists, not
speculation about what the facts we know might mean.
So let me call on ZAC, the NTSB, the ZBAG, and all other
investigators with the standing to make valid conclusions, to report
whatever they have found or not found at this time in order to limit the
fear of the 601 XL that is currently spreading through the community. They
must speak up now before more damage based on fear is done to our community.
Please correct me if anyone with standing has provided a full
explanation of the events that are causing these concerns about the XL.
Jeff Davidson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spreading fear about the XL |
Jeff
Excellent response.
Im about to fly my 601XL and have concerns.
Steve W.
N 9554 Z
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Spreading fear about the XL
Friends, neighbors, and fellow Zenith Enthusiasts,
I have received multiple off-list communications about the
unexplained XL crashes. We now have folks not part of the Zenith
community spreading "information" about the accidents. As I reported on
this list then, a group of LSA competitors advanced negative information
about the XL in person at the September 2007 Zenith Gathering in
Winchester, Virginia. For my part, I have not heard anything conclusive
from the entities looking at the design, including the Zenith Builder's
Analysis Group, Zenith, the NTSB, and European Governments, with two
exceptions. One is the cable tension advisory and the other is the
European action. Neither tells us what is happening unless you believe
that insufficient cable tension is the proper explanation. Others have
failed to find any design problem despite an extensive review. ZAC
conducted a second static load test with acceptable results. But the
impact of all the discussion is becoming clear. In the Second November
Issue, 2008 of Trade-A-Plane, there are three kits for sale and a
completed aircraft. See page 87. Some advertisements have appeared on
this list. Locally, some builders are making the decision to stop work
on their projects. While all losses of human life are mourned without
reservation, especially losses that need not occur, I believe that we
all seek a rational explanation for these events if one exists, not
speculation about what the facts we know might mean.
So let me call on ZAC, the NTSB, the ZBAG, and all other
investigators with the standing to make valid conclusions, to report
whatever they have found or not found at this time in order to limit the
fear of the 601 XL that is currently spreading through the community.
They must speak up now before more damage based on fear is done to our
community.
Please correct me if anyone with standing has provided a
full explanation of the events that are causing these concerns about the
XL.
Jeff Davidson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Landing distance |
> I wouldn't call 500 feet conservative for a 601XL. At gross weight and no
> wind with standard sea level conditions, I'd call 500 feet of runway the
> bare minimum. Under more favorable conditions, you can probably get by with
> less. I would prefer to have at least 1000 feet to work with, I doubt if
> I've ever used more than 1500.
I consider 1000 feet the minimum possible, and that's with maximum effort.
Anything under that is gravy. This goes double at max gross. It doesn't love
runways as much as, say, a Mooney, but do NOT underestimate the distance
required.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spreading fear about the XL |
| From: | "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net> |
The same guy has posted the following to 4 websites that I frequent. I posted
some comments about waiting for the out come and not jumping to conclusions, how
many hours that have been flown on this aircraft ect...
Here is the post.
" The CH601 XL apparently sports a failure mode that has caused one of its wings
to 'fold up' on at least seven occasions.
After such a case transpired in The Netherlands as well - killing both
occupants - the local authorities grounded all CH601 XL aircraft until
further notice."
It sound nice and is followed and ended with concern, but the exact same verb-age
was used in all the posts that I saw. Sounds a little fishy to me.
You most all, know that I'm not a 601 guy, but bad/misleading info just burns my
A$$.
I would fly in a Ch601 without any more care then getting in my truck... well depending
on the pilot. ;^)
In my opinion, that does not count for much in the big picture, the CH601 is an
excellent design and as safe as any. My gut tells me that the incidents were
caused by pilot error or extenuating circumstances, or both.
OK... back off my soap box. And just go fly your 601!
I'm still building my 701 so the jokes on me, anyway :^)
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215904#215904
November 08, 2008 - November 23, 2008
Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-im